Sitting of 9 November 1977

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  ABERDEEN SHOEMAKERS INCORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION
  Mr. Secretary Millan presented a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under Section 7 of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936, relating to Aberdeen Shoemakers Incorporation ; and the same was read the First time ; and ordered to be considered upon Tuesday next and to be printed, [Bill 5.]
  CITY OF GLASGOW DISTRICT COUNCIL ORDER CONFIRMATION
  Mr. Secretary Millan presented a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under Sec-

  respecting application of Standing Order No. 30 (Closure of Debate) during Session 1976–77, (1) in the House and in Committee of the whole House, under the following heads:—

  1

  2

  3

  4

  5

  6

  Date when Closure claimed, and by whom

  Question before House or Committee when claimed

  Whether in House or Committee

  Whether assent given to Motion or withheld by the Chair

  Assent withheld because, in the opinion of the Chair, a decision would shortly be arrived at without that Motion

  Result of Motion and, if a Division, Numbers for and against.

  and (2) in the Standing Committees under the following heads:—

  1

  2

  3

  4

  5

  Date when Closure claimed, and by whom

  Question before Committee when claimed

  Whether assent given to Motion or withheld by the Chair

  Assent with held because, in the opinion of the Chair, a decision would shortly be arrived at without that Motion

  Result of Motion and, if a Division, Numbers for and against.

  —[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

DELEGATED LEGISLATION
Return ordered,
of the number of Instruments considered in Session 1976–77 by the Joint Committee and the Select Committee on Statu
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tion 7 of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936, relating to City of Glasgow District Council ; and the same was read the First time ; and ordered to be considered upon Tuesday next and to be printed. [Bill 6.]
Mr. Speaker: With the agreement of the House, and in accordance with recent practice, I propose to call the Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means to move all nine of his motions for unopposed returns together.

ADJOURNMENT MOTIONS UNDER STANDING ORDER No. 9
Return ordered,
of Motions for Adjournment under Standing Order No. 9, showing the date of such Motion, the name of the Member proposing the specific and important matter and the result of any Division taken thereon, during Session 1976–77
—[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

CLOSURE OF DEBATE (STANDING ORDER No. 30)
Return ordered,
tory Instruments respectively pursuant to their orders of reference, showing in each case the numbers of Instruments subject to the different forms of Parliamentary procedure and of those within the committee's orders of reference for which no Parliamentary procedure is prescribed by statute and the numbers drawn to the special attention of the House or of both
Houses distinguishing the ground in the committee's orders of reference upon which such attention was invited; and of the numbers of Instruments considered by a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments and by the House respectively, in Session 1976–77 showing the number where the question on the proceedings relating thereto was put forthwith under Standing Order No. 73A(5).—[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

PRIVATE BILLS AND PRIVATE BUSINESS
Return ordered,
of the number of Private Bills, Hybrid Bills and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders introduced into this House and brought from the House of Lords, and of Acts passed in Session 1976–77:
Of all Private Bills, Hybrid Bills, and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders which in Session 1976–77 were reported on by Committees on Opposed Bills or by Committees nominated partly by the House and partly by the Committee of Selection, together with the names of the selected Members who served on each Committee ; the first and also the last day of the sitting of each Committee ; the number of days on which each Committee sat; the number of days on which each selected Member served; the number of days occupied by each Bill in Committee ; the Bills of which the Preambles were reported to have been proved ; the Bills of which the Preambles were reported to have been not proved; and, in the case of Bills for confirming Provisional Orders, whether the Provisional Orders ought or ought not to be confirmed:
Of all Private Bills and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders which, in Session 1976–77 were referred by the Committee of Selection to the Committee on Unopposed Bills, together with the names of the Members who served on the Committee; the number of days on which the Committee sat ; and the number of days on which each Member attended:
And, of the number of Private Bills, Hybrid Bills, and Bills for confirming Provisional Orders withdrawn or not proceeded with by the parties, those Bills being specified which were referred to Committees and dropped during the sittings of the Committee.—[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

PUBLIC BILLS
Return ordered,
of the number of Public Bills, distinguishing Government from other Bills, introduced into this House, or brought from the House of Lords, during Session 1976–77, showing:
(1)the number which received the Royal Assent, and
(2)the number which did not receive the Royal Assent, indicating those which were introduced into but not passed by this House, those passed by this House but not by the
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House of Lords, those passed by the House of Lords but not by this House, those passed by both Houses but Amendments not agreed to; and distinguishing the stages at which such Bills were dropped, postponed or rejected in either House of Parliament, or the stages which such Bills had reached by the time of the Prorogation or Dissolution.—[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

SELECT COMMITTEES
Return ordered,
of Select Committees in Session 1976–77 with the Sub-Committees appointed by them ; the names of the Members appointed to serve on each. and of the Chairman of each ; the number of days each met, and the number of days each Member attended ; the number of meetings held by each Select Committee and Sub-Committee, and the number of meetings each Member attended ; the total expenses of the attendances of witnesses at each Select Committee and Sub-Committee ; and the total number of Members who served on Select Committees ; together with so much of the same information as is relevant to the Chairmen's Panel and the Court of Referees.—[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE AND BUSINESS OF SUPPLY
Return ordered.
of (1) the days on which the House sat in Session 1976–77, stating for each day the day of the month and day of the week, the hour of the meeting, and the hour of the adjournment ; and the total number of hours occupied in the Sittings of the House, and the average time ; and showing the number of hours on which the House sat each day, and the number of hours after the time appointed for the interruption of business ; and (2) the days on which Business of Supply was considered. —[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.]

STANDING COMMITTEES
Return ordered.
for Session 1976–77, of (1) the total number and the names of all Members (including and distinguishing Chairmen) who have been appointed to serve on one or more of the Standing Committees showing, with regard to each of such Members, the number of sittings to which he was summoned and at which he was present ; (2) the number of Bills. Estimates, Matters and other items referred to Standing Committees pursuant to Standing Order No. 73A (Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c) considered by all and by each of the Standing Committees, the number of sittings of each Committee and the titles of all Bills, Estimates, Matters and other items as above considered by a Committee, distinguishing where a Bill was a Government Bill or was brought from the House of Lords,

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and showing in the case of each Bill, Estimate. Matter and other item, the particular Committee by whom it was considered, the number of sittings at which it was considered and the number of Members present at each of those sittings.—[The Second Deputy Chairman o ways and Means.]

SPECIAL PROCEDURE ORDERS
Return ordered
of the number of Special Procedure Orders presented in Session 1976–77 ; the number withdrawn ; the number against which Petitions or copies of Petitions were deposited ; the number of Petitions of General Objection and for Amendment respectively considered by the Chairmen ; the number of such Petitions certified by the Chairmen as proper to be received, and the number certified by them as being petitions of General Objection and for Amendment respectively ; the number referred to a Joint Committee of both Houses ; the number reported with Amendments by a Joint Committee, and the number in relation to which a Joint Committee reported that the Order be not approved ; and the number of Bills introduced for the confirmation of Special Procedure Orders :
Of Special Procedure Orders which, in Session 1976–77, were referred to a joint Committee, together with the names of the Commons Members who served on each Committee; the number of days on which each Committee sat ; and tie number of days on which each such Member attended.—[The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means,]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS

    Rhodesia
    Mr. Rifkindasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a statement on the visit of Field Marshal Lord Carver to Southern Africa.
    Mr. van Straubenzeeasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a statement on the visit to Rhodesia of the British Resident Commissioner-designate.
    Mr. Aitkenasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the progress of Field Marshal Lord Carver's mission to Rhodesia.
    The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Dr. David Owen): I will be having detailed discussions with Lord Carver on Thursday when he returns from Africa and there will be a debate in the House on Friday on the Rhodesia Sanctions Order when I hope, Mr. Speaker, that I may be able to catch your eye.
    Mr. Rifkind: Does the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary accept that there is in reality no more prospect of integrating the terrorist forces with the Rhodesian security forces than there would be of integrating the IRA with the Royal Ulster Constabulary? Does he not accept that any real prospect of a peaceful settlement must involve concentration on a settlement between the Rhodesian Government and the internal nationalist parties led by Bishop Muzorewa and Mr. Sithole?
    Dr. Owen: No, Sir, and I think that that is a rather foolish statement by the hon. Gentleman. If he thinks that this very complex problem can he likened to the other extremely complex problem which is Ireland, he is cheapening both issues.
    Mr. van Straubenzee: But will the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary at least not close his mind on the central

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    point raised by my hon. Friend, so that if the noble Lord, upon his return, advises the right hon. Gentleman that some movement in this direction is necessary, the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary will make it quite clear that he will be receptive to advice in that sense?
    Dr. Owen: I am open-minded about any solution in Rhodesia. I am only too delighted to listen to anyone. I do not have a closed mind. What I have to try to do is bring about a peaceful negotiated solution. That is extremely difficult when one is faced by two forces, neither of which has won or lost and both of which have to be brought together somehow to a ceasefire.
    Mr. Aitken: Will the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary say what progress Lord Carver or anyone else has made in reconciling the very serious differences among, on the one hand, those African leaders with internal political support—namely, Bishop Muzorewa and Mr. Sithole—and, on the other, those African leaders with external support, namely, Mr. Nkomo and Mr. Mugabe? Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that until those differences are reconciled there is really not much hope of any solution?
    Dr. Owen: One of the things that has bedevilled the whole problem of Rhodesia is the divisions of opinion between the nationalist leaders. There are at least four people who could be thought of as presidential candidates among the black nationalist leaders. It is not quite as simple as to speak of external and internal support. Mr. Nkomo has an active party inside Rhodesia. He is not himself inside Rhodesia. Similarly, both Bishop Muzorewa and Mr. Sithole claim—and I have little doubt that they claim it accurately—that they have supporters among those fighting in the liberation forces. But it is not as simple as to say that it is an internal and an external situation. Both those nationalist leaders, Bishop Muzorewa and Mr. Sithole, constantly claim that they have support among the liberation forces. I think this is true.
    Mr. Faulds: As the disbandment of Smith's so-called security forces is one of the major problems, does not my right
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    hon. Friend agree that following the dismissal, the pay-off or what-the-hell of the white officers of the Smith regime, the formation of contingents containing both the African forces of Smith's regime and the independent liberation forces forged together under Commonwealth officers might be a way to solve this problem, as I have already suggested in correspondence?
    Dr. Owen: I have no doubt that some form of integration of the forces will be necessary when Zimbabwe reaches independence. That is what we are talking about when we are talking about the Zimbabwe national army. All I can say to those right hon. and hon. Members who find the concept difficult—there must be very few people on either side of the House who do not find it difficult, and I do not claim that it will be easy—is that that sort of reconciliation has to take place if those groups of people who are currently fighting each other are to live in peace in Zimbabwe. This is part of the reconciliation that has to take place in an independent country.
    Mr. Thorpe: I think that most hon. Members will prefer to discuss these matters in a rather more lengthy way on Friday, but does the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary agree that, unless the differing warring factions are integrated, whatever settlement is subsequently arrived at will be an open invitation for a subsequent civil war if Angola is any experience to go by, and that therefore integration is absolutely crucial to the success of any future constitutional settlement?
    Dr. Owen: I very much agree with the right hon. Gentleman. The fact of the matter is that the threat of civil war after independence is every bit as much a part of my anxieties as is a breakdown of law and order during a transitional period. One cannot just take a short-term solution and get to independence. The House would not thank me, nor would the Rhodesian people, if the end result of all this was an independent Zimbabwe wracked by civil war, as has happened in Angola. I hope that when the House discusses this it will look at the complexities of the issue and look, for instance, at the parallels which exist—Angloa is one—where outside forces have come in and taken part, in addition to a civil war.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: We shall return to this subject on Question No. 8.
    Mr. Whiteheadasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement about the progress of the constitutional talks on Rhodesia.
    Mr. Croninasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the situation with regard to Rhodesia.
    Mr. Brothertonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement about Rhodesia.
    Dr. Owen: The debate on the renewal of the Southern Rhodesia Act 1965 on Friday 11th November will, I hope, offer a full opportunity to the House to hear a report on the discussions which have taken place on the transitional and post-independence constitution in Rhodesia.
    Mr. Whitehead: As the Zambians are reported in today's papers to be urging Lord Carver to drop proposals for elections under the interim administration of Zimbabwe, could not the Government reaffirm that such elections, held under universal suffrage as speedily as possible, are the best possible estimate of the relative strengths of all those who must later work together and collaborate for a free and prosperous Zimbabwe?
    Dr. Owen: An absolutely essential ingredient in the Anglo-United States agreement is that it would put to the people of Rhodesia the choice of who was going to be the President and who was going to form the Government in an independent Zimbabwe. While the nationalist leaders remain as divided as they are, I can see no other way of resolving the problem of the leadership. We therefore stand firmly by the proposition that there must be lair elections during the transitional period.
    Mr. Cronin: Does my right hon. Friend agree that his basic package of proposals —proposals which are sound and widely accepted—is to some extent endangered by multiple unreasonable and prejudiced attempts to modify it? Will he take a
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    rather harder line on this and, in particular, resist any suggestion that transitory security arrangements should be handled either by the guerrillas or by the present white Rhodesian forces?
    Dr. Owen: One of the crucial aspects of the arrangements for the maintenance of law and order is that the liberation forces and the Rhodesian defence forces should come under the command of the Resident Commissioner-designate and, therefore, have a unified command structure during the transitional period. As to the other matter, I very much agree with my hon. Friend. We can look at modifications and at widening the areas of agreement—I very much accept that—but once we start to unscramble the package we get hack to the situation that Rhodesia has always been in and in which all initiatives have been made: that everyone wants to take that which he can agree on and to reject that which he cannot accept. There will never be total agreement about a negotiated settlement. What we must do is produce a fair and reasonable compromise, and the White Paper is an attempt to do that.
    Mr. Brotherton: Does not the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary agree that the chances of a settlement would be very much easier if Her Majesty's Government stopped giving aid to those who help and succour terrorists who murder and destroy black and white Rhodesians alike?
    Dr. Owen: I agree that if we were to be giving that sort of aid, we wouldߞ
    Mr. Brotherton: We are.
    Dr. Owen: I do not know to what the hon. Gentleman is referring, but I suspect that it is the aid programme to Mozambique. I believe that that aid programme will not in any way succour guerrilla fighters inside Mozambique, and the way the projects are organised and the way that the aid programme is run to that country will ensure that.
    Mozambique, Zambia and Botswana—all three countries bordering on Rhodesia —are crucial to any settlement. One of the points of any ceasefire that will have to be negotiated is that the guerrilla camps existing in those countries will have to be wound up. It is no good having a

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    ceasefire and a transitional period in independence if those guerrilla camps simply stay there. Therefore, the support of those particular three front-line Presidents is of great importance in any settlement. I have not found President Machel unreceptive to the basic ingredients that we have put forward in our settlement package.
    Mr. Grocott: Is it not the case that the overwhelming evidence from other countries in Africa has been that, whenever independence has had to be attained by means of an armed struggle, any settlement has to be primarily with those who fought in the liberation movement and not with those who tried to seek a settlement internally?
    Dr. Owen: We must recognise the realities of power in any settlement, yet we must also preserve a situation in which the new Government of the country is genuinely the Government of the majority. That is extremely difficult to do. The Organisation of African Unity has hitherto made an important distinction. It recognises the Patriotic Front in relation to the armed struggle, but it recognises all nationalist leaders in relation to a fair election as being possible leaders of a future Zimbabwe. That is a distinction that I hope the Organisation of African Unity will maintain.
    Mr. Nicholas Winterton: Will the Foreign Secretary give information to the House, further to that which he gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Louth (Mr. Brotherton), showing, why he attaches so much importance to the views and opinions of the front-line Presidents when these people run neither efficient nor democratic societies, when the factions represented by Mr. Sithole and Bishop Muzorewa are highly critical of the importance placed upon the frontline Presidents, and when Mr. Sithole and Bishop Muzorewa represent perhaps 80 per cent. of black Rhodesians?
    Dr. Owen: It is important to recognise that the essential factor is the people who will live in an independent Zimbabwe.
    Mr. Nicholas Winterton: That is the 80 per cent., is it not?
    Dr. Owen: That is the hon. Gentleman's estimation of the percentage. They
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    are the people who must elect their Government. But, in achieving a negotiated settlement, it would be a foolish man who thought that one could ignore either South Africa or the front-line Presidents. I assure the House that I had no wish to spend my summer holidays touring round African States. I did so because I believed that that was necessary if a settlement was to be secured.
    The front-line Presidents are important for the reasons that I gave on the security issue. They are important, too, for the influence that they can bring to bear on the differing nationalist leaders and for their own genuine commitment to wanting a peaceful settlement, and their fear, of which they make no secret, of the danger of civil war in a post-independence situation.
    Mr. Ioan Evans: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the illegal régime in Rhodesia is being sustained by South Africa? What international action, through the United Nations, is to be taken against South Africa? The illegal régime in Rhodesia is condemned by the whole world with the exception of South Africa and some hon. Members on the Opposition Benches.
    Dr. Owen: It is, of course, impossible totally to separate these issues into packages, but one of the matters that I made clear in the spring was that we would not make trade-offs or deals with South Africa, and that we would treat Rhodesia, Namibia and the South African internal situation as separate issues. That has some advantages now, because in the Security Council recently we were dealing with South Africa's internal decisions as a separate matter.
    In fairness, I must tell the House that on Rhodesia, and to a considerable extent on Namibia, the South African Government have been prepared to discuss the parameters of a negotiated settlement because they believe that it would be best for Rhodesia and Namibia for an internationally acceptable solution to he achieved. The South African Government have been helpful towards obtaining those ends. I have maintained my disagreements with them about their internal policies—very strong disagreements—and there has never been any secret between us that we disagree about those issues.
    Mr. John Davies: Does the Foreign Secretary realise that there is a widespread suspicion in the area that it is the purpose of the Government, despite the expressions in the White Paper, to seek to impose a solution upon the Rhodesian people discriminately, preferring the Patriotic Front to the proper course of democratic elections in Rhodesia itself? Will the right hon. Gentleman take this opportunity absolutely to renounce any inclination of this kind, in order to silence those suspicions?
    Dr. Owen: Only a fool would deny that there are not those suspicions. I do not think that they are as widespread as the right hon. Member suggests, but they are certainly there, and they are real. I take this opportunity, as I have on many other occasions, to say that we have no intention whatever of imposing a solution. We cannot do so. I have always made clear to the House the limitations of the Government's power in this situation. We can try to produce a negotiated settlement and we can help bring people together, but in the last analysis they have to want to come together. If they will not come together, if they will not compromise, we shall not get a negotiated settlement and the conflict will continue. I have never made any secret to this House of the difficulties which confront the Government. However, we stand firmly by the White Paper.

    Spain (La Ribina Estate)
    Mr. Terry Walkerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what action he will take to help British subjects who may be considering purchasing, or have purchased, property on the La Ribina estate near Vera in Spain.
    The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Frank Judd):British subjects seeking my right hon. Friend's Department's advice about the purchase of properties in Spain are advised to consult a Spanish lawyer. Lists of lawyers are provided on request. Our overseas representatives cannot advise upon or intervene in such transactions.
    Mr. Walker: Does; my hon. Friend agree that many British subjects who have retired and decided to have a retirement home in Spain, like my constituents Mr. and Mrs. Hill, have got into great diffi-
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    culty when they have gone to the La Ribina estate and found that there are no homes there, and that there never will be any homes allowed there? I have a pile of correspendence from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office about this. Will the consulate give greater help to constituents like that who find themselves in great difficulty there?
    Mr. Judd: I assure my hon. Friend that the Government are very concerned about the plight of his constituents and others who have had the same sort of experience, but I am sure that, on reflection, he will recognise that it is not possible for the Government to become involved in disputes between parties to a private contract. However, everything else that we can do to help, we shall do.

    Cambodia
    Mr. Goodhartasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he expects a British diplomat to visit Cambodia.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Evan Luard): There are no plans for such a visit. On 24th October, because of the Government's continuing concern over Cambodian violations of human rights, we informed the Cambodian Government that it was not our intention to proceed with the appointment of a British ambassador to that country.
    Mr. Goodhart: I am delighted that we have protested to the Cambodian authorities about the atrocities that have taken place, but can the Minister recall any occasion in the past two years when any British spokesman has protested in any international forum about the atrocities in Cambodia? In the past four months the Cambodian régime has made 30 attacks across the Thai frontier. Surely this constitutes a threat to international peace.
    Mr. Luard: There are two entirely separate questions here. First, there is the question of human rights in Cambodia. As I have told the House before, we are considering whether we can and should raise this in the United Nations Commission on Human Rights. The second is the question of possible aggression, of incursions across the frontier of the kind that the hon. Gentleman has mentioned. It is obviously primarily a

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    matter for the Government of Thailand to consider whether they wish to try to raise it in the Security Council or elsewhere.
    Mr. Newens: Will my hon. Friend bear in mind in any representations that the British Government are able to make that deep disquiet is equally felt by many of us who supported the struggle of the Vietnamese people against American intervention and against colonialism throughout? Will he make it perfectly clear that we feel complete revulsion at the reports of these atrocities? Will he make inquiries also about the safety of Prince Sihanouk, who throughout stood out firmly against the ill-conceived and totally wrong American invasion of Cambodia, which brought this state of affairs about and was supported by many Conservative Members?
    Mr. Luard: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. The fact that concern about human rights in Cambodia is felt equally strongly on the Labour Benches by many Members such as my hon. Friend, who showed during the war in Indo-China where their sympathies lay, means that what they say will perhaps have more impact than what is said by some other Members. I shall certainly see whether we can find some way of making that clear. I do not think that Prince Sihanouk is in danger at the present moment.
    Mr. Thorpe: Does the Minister agree that what is happening internally in Cambodia is as grave as Stalin's suppression of the Kulaks and Hitler's liquidation of the Jews, and is one of the most appalling atrocities that we have faced since the Second World War? That being so, is there any reason why Her Majesty's Government should not immediately raise the matter in the Security Council under Chapter 9 of the Charter and further, or in the alternative, demand an independent international commission of inquiry to look into the matter forthwith?
    Mr. Luard: I have informed the House already that the Government share the profound concern that has been expressed here about these appalling atrocities. The question is how we can raise this matter in an international forum. Because these are primarily domestic actions against the population of Cambodia itself, they clearly are a violation of human rights, and the correct forum in which to raise
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    these matters is the United Nations Commission on Human Rights. As I have already said, we are considering whether we can raise it in that forum when it next meets.
    Mr. Luce: Since the evidence suggests that more than 1 million Cambodians have been slaughtered in the last two years, and since it is a known fact that Cambodia is at war with Vietnam and with Thailand, thus constituting a threat to international peace, why have this Government and, indeed, the Western nations been so slow in bringing this issue before the General Assembly of the United Nations and thus exposing the gross atrocities of this Communist régime.
    Mr. Nicholas Winterton: Double standards.
    Mr. Luard: There is no question of double standards. The same problem arises in any circumstances where a Government are taking action against their own population, as the hon. Gentleman well knows. I can mention a number of other countries where atrocities—not perhaps on the same scale but of a similar nature—are taking place, and they are not raised either in the Security Council or in the General Assembly of the United Nations. As I mentioned before, the correct body to discuss these matters is the United Nations Commission on Human Rights. In every probability, we shall raise this case, as we raised the case of Uganda, at the next meeting of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights.
    The hon. Gentleman also mentioned incursions against the territory of Thailand and of Vietnam. It may be that thre is a case to be raised in the Security Council on that matter, hut the parties that should raise the matter in the Security Council are the two countries which have been attacked.

    Law of the Sea Conference
    Mr. Liptonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress he is making in the international discussions relating to the law of the sea.
    Mr. Luard: The new informal negotiating text produced after the Sixth Session of the United Nations Law of

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    the Sea Conference in July contains a number of improvements.
    However, the part relating to the international sea-bed regime is unacceptable to the United Kingdom in its present form.
    The British delegation is seeking further improvements before the next session.
    Mr. Lipton: Can we not do a bit more to make the public realise the importance of the vital issues involved in these discussions? Does it not appear that some other countries which are also concerned are dragging their feet on this important issue? If we do not do more, these discussions will go on for ever.
    Mr. Luard: I agree very much with the first part of what my hon. Friend said. It is rather surprising that the public and the Press in this and most other countries have not recognised that we are talking about the future disposition of a considerable part of the world's remaining natural resources. We are doing all that we can to urge on all the other Governments involved the necessity of agreement in this vital matter, but that is a large number of Governments. Deep divisions of national interest are at stake here, not of the most common kind between rich countries and poor countries, mainly, but between coastal States and non-coastal States, between the countries that have the technology to exploit their resources and those that do not, and it is not easy to resolve those differences. I think that it is remarkable that we have got as far as we have. We have now a single text. It is not altogether satisfactory in certain respects, but I hope and believe that we can get it into a satisfactory state by the end of the next session of the conference.
    Mrs. Winifred Ewing: Is the Minister aware that the one agreement reached in the Law of the Sea Conference is the simple proposition that the best conservationists are the coastal States, they having most at stake? Is he aware also of the irony that the maritime nations of the world are taking 200 miles of the sea as their exclusive right for fishing and other purposes but, because of the EEC arrangements, the United Kingdom, with 65 per cent. of the fishing pond of the EEC—most of it in Scottish waters
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    —will not even have control, far less exclusive control, over 50 miles?
    Mr. Luard: It is not the case that the principle which the hon. Lady mentions is the only matter that has been agreed in the conference. There is a considerable range of matters, including some of great importance, on which an international consensus has now been arrived at in the conference, some much more important than the matter that the hon. Lady mentions. She has raised a question which has nothing to do with the conference—the question of the EEC's fishery régime. I can only suggest that she raises it in the proper form and at the proper time.
    Mr. Roper: Will my hon. Friend say whether, during the discussions, Her Majesty's Government will be able to support the clause in the single informal negotiating text which deals with the underwater cultural heritage, as it is important that we arrive at a common basis for the protection of underwater archaeological remains?
    Mr. Luard: My hon. Friend has mentioned one of the points on which there is a substantial degree of consensus in the conference. The preservation of the cultural heritage beneath the sea is one of the many detailed but none the less important points that the conference has been considering. There is a substantial likelihood that we shall be able to reach agreement on it.
    Mr. Wall: Can the Minister make clear whether the 200-mile fishery limit is now de jure or de facto? In other words, is it now part of international law, or is it merly accepted by most countries?
    Mr. Luard: All that this conference is doing is trying to establish a new law of the sea. If we finally reach agreement on a new convention it will be for individual Governments to ratify it, and when a sufficient number have ratified—that number has not yet been decided—it will become part of international law. We are, therefore, quite a long way from making it international law at present.

    BAOR
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will state the estimated cost in 1977–78 and 1978–79 of the British Army of the Rhine and also

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    its cost to Great Britain in deutschemarks; and if he will make a statement on his agreement with Bonn to phase out entirely West Germany's partial compensation for this expenditure.
    Dr. Owen: Excluding equipment, the estimated budgetary cost of British Forces in Germany in 1977–78 is about £700 million. The estimated foreign exchange cost of British Forces in Germany in 1977–78 is about £540 million. Estimates of costs for 1978–79 are not yet available.
    The agreement provides for the Government of the Federal Republic of Germany to pay DM475 million towards expenditure on barrack and other facilities for the use of British Forces in Germany over the next three years, and details are set out in Cmnd. 6970.
    Mr. Allaun: Will the Foreign Secretary reconsider this astonishing agreement? Does he not agree that it is grossly unfair that the wealthier country, after two years, should cease to make any contribution at all to this enormous burden of joint military preparation?
    Dr. Owen: I think that it is a very satisfactory outcome to an extremely difficult problem. DM475 million is a large sum by any reckoning. Averaged over the three years covered by the agreement, it works out at nearly 50 per cent. more than the cash payments in each of the years covered by the previous agreement.
    Mr. Newens: Does not my right hon. Friend recognise that, in effect, this agreement provides for Great Britain permanently to subsidise the West German economy, and that this is the reality of what we are doing? Does he regard this as satisfactory; and, if so, how long does he expect that it will continue? Does he regard it as reasonable that it should go on for ever?
    Dr. Owen: It is not a permanent subsidy. The forces that we maintain on the mainland of Europe are in accordance with treaty obligations, and they have a vital role to play in the forward defence strategy of the Alliance. They are a major element in Britain's contribution to the collective defence of the Alliance, and they make an important contribution to the security of the United Kingdom itself. They are there for our own national interests.

    Embassies (Commercial Support Services)
    Mr. Gwilym Robertsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is taking to improve commercial support services at British posts and embassies overseas ; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Judd: My right hon. Friend is at present looking into these questions with other Ministers, particularly the Secretary of State for Trade, in the light of the issues raised in the CPRS report and from other sources.
    Mr Roberts: Does my hon. Friend agree that, as the pound is revalued upwards and our exports become less price-competitive, the effectiveness of these commercial services becomes more and more important? Is he aware that it is now about three months since we had the CPRS Report, parts of which are widely welcomed in industry? Does he not now feel that it is time that something was done in this matter?
    Mr. Judd: I assure my hon. Friend that we give the highest priority to the effectiveness of our commercial services abroad, and that we are determined to apply any good lessons from the CPRS report, and, indeed, any good lessons from other sources, on how to improve them. I am sure that my hon. Friend will want to note that we receive a very great number of commendations from business men and others about the quality of the services which are provided. But we are not complacent. We want to improve them all the time.
    Mr. McCrindle: While paying tribute to the improved commercial services at most British embassies, may I urge the Minister to turn his attention to some of the smaller countries in South America, and some countries such as the Philippines and Thailand, where, because of the lack of commercial services to potential exporters from this country, many export orders appear to be going to our competitors?
    Mr. Judd: The hon. Gentleman has made a very valid and important point, which needs to be borne in mind when the CPRS Report is evaluated. Export success, of course, is not only the winning of large orders in a few countries but is

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    also made up of many successful smaller orders in many smaller countries.
    Mr. MacFarquhar: Can my hon. Friend say whether the commercial support services at our embassy in Peking have already been so much improved that they are negotiating with the Chinese about the sale of Harriers? Whether or not such negotiations are taking place, will my hon. Friend at least tell the House whether the Chinese have approached us on that matter, and what is the attitude of the Foreign Office on it?
    Mr. Judd: As my hon. Friend knows, it is not normal to go into detail on such points, but I can assure him that in Peking, as elsewhere, we are determined to follow up every opportunity that can properly be followed up for trade opportunities.

    Hijacking
    Mr. Hal Millerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what action he is prepared to take in furtherance of internationally agreed action on hijacking.
    Mr. Luard: The Government played an active part as co-sponsor of the recent resolution of the United Nations on this subject and are pressing for ratification by all Government:; of the three main international conventions on aircraft security, particularly The Hague Convention on unlawful seizure of aircraft.
    Mr. Miller: Will the Minister tell the House how successful the Government have been in trying to obtain additional signatories to the convention and, in particular, whether they have taken any action in concert with our European allies to act against countries providing safe refuge, whether by withdrawal of aircraft services or by other means?
    Mr. Luard: It is ratification rather than signature of these conventions that is required, and we have been active. I mention the fact that we were very active in the United Nations only a week or two ago in getting a resolution passed which specifically called on all members of the United Nations to ratify their conventions. There are now about 80 ratifications of the three main conventions concerned.
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    The question of sanctions against Governments who shelter hijackers or agree to accept them on their territories is extremely important and one which needs to be studied further. However, our aim must he to ensure that all Governments commit themselves not necessarily to refusing to receive an aircraft but to either prosecuting or agreeing to the extradiction of those who have hijacked an aircraft.
    Mr. Forman: Would it be possible for the Minister to consider inducements, as well as sanctions, against countries which may be tempted to give sanctuary to such people as a means of achieving a really complete system of security against these terrorists?
    Mr. Luard: I am not entirely sure what kind of inducements the hon. Gentleman has in mind. If he will write to me about the matter, I shall consider it.

    Antarctic Treaty
    Mr. Knoxasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the outcome of the Ninth Antarctic Treaty Consultative Meeting recently held in London, particularly regarding the conservation of marine living resources and exploitation of mineral resources.
    The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Edward Rowlands): The Government regard the outcome of the meeting as satisfactory. The participants agreed to recommend to their Governments that they conclude before the end of next year a definitive regime for the conservation, including rational use, of Antarctic marine living resources. They also recommended rapid action towards an internationally agreed approach to the exploration and exploitation of Antarctic minerals. I have arranged to place in the Library of the House a copy of the statement released to the Press by the chairman after the close of the meeting.
    Mr. Knox: Did the consultative meeting discuss the possibility of an exclusive economic marine zone around the Antarctic land mass, and, if so, what conclusions did it reach about it?
    Mr. Rowlands: That was not in itself discussed. However, the general issue

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    of the way in which we intend to deal with the problems of economic resources in the area was central to the whole of the meeting. What was encouraging was the way in which all members of the meeting agreed that they had to have an international outlook, and to look not just at their own interests but to the interests of the international community as a whole. This was an extremely encouraging meeting.
    Mr. James Johnson: In this context, does the Minister accept that there are stocks of fish in the South Atlantic equivalent at least to those which we have fished for centuries in the North Atlantic? Will he consider declaring, or is he prepared to declare, a 200-mile limit line from Asuncion, St. Helena, Falklands and South Georgia? Furthermore, is he aware that there is an active South Atlantic Committee which has members from all sections of the industry and Members from both sides of the House and which is backed by the White Fish Authority, and in this context will he be prepared, say, to finance a vessel for a commercial survey in that part of the world?
    Mr. Rowlands: The question of a 200-mile fishing zone around the British Antarctic territory is being considered, obviously, but I believe it is vitally important that we do not try to continue to present and promote national interests in this respect. Obviously there are many national interests, but the real value of this meeting of the members to the Antarctic Treaty is that they sometimes subsume their national interest in the greater interest. This is of greater value in trying to deal with the question of their convention for the conservation of fishing resources in the area.

  EUROPEAN COMMUNITY

    International Sugar Agreement
    Mr. Farrasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he expects the EEC to adhere to the International Sugar Agreement recently signed by 72 countries; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Judd: At the United Nations Sugar Conference, which ended on 7th October, the draft of a new International Sugar Agreement was concluded, and it has been
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    open for signature since 28th October. The agreement contains a specific provision under which the EEC can accede on special terms to be negotiated. I hope that these negotiations can begin as soon as possible with a view to participation by the EEC in the agreement.
    Mr. Farr: Whilst thanking the Minister for that reply, in view of the failure of the EEC to sign the previous International Sugar Agreement and the paramount importance of such an agreement to sugar producers of the Third World, may I ask him to use his best endeavours to secure Community signature to prevent the disposal of unwanted sugar, which could disrupt world prices?
    Mr. Judd: The hon. Gentleman will agree that the Government have made clear on several occasions during recent months the paramount importance, as he puts it, of this agreement, particularly to a number of developing countries. We are determined to do all we can to facilitate an early agreement with the EEC and others.
    Mr. Spearing: Will my hon Friend confirm that the agreement includes an offsetting amount of 1·4 million tonnes imported from the Third World, and does he agree that, even with this, the likelihood of the dumping of EEC sugar on world markets is very great? Will my hon. Friend tell the House the likely maximum amount that could be dumped and what is the Government's attitude to this?
    Mr. Judd: There is a danger of dumping, and we want to make sure that there is not dumping at the expense of the economies of the developing countries. The details of the arrangements between the EEC and the other signatories to the agreement have yet to be finalised.

    France (Foreign Minister)
    Mr. Martenasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he next expects to meet the French Foreign Minister to discuss EEC affairs.
    Mr. Judd: At the meeting of the Foreign Affairs Council on 21st and 22nd November.
    Mr. Marten: Will the Minister discuss with the French Foreign Minister the

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    growing influence of the Euro-Communists within the EEC, a matter that must disturb many hon. Members on both sides of the House? In particular, will the Minister raise with him the question of the continuing support of Russian foreign policy by these Euro-Communists, a fact which one day may have a serious effect upon our relations with the United States of America?
    Mr. Judd: I shall certainly draw the concern of the hon. Gentleman to my right hon. Friend's attention. But, clearly, it is difficult to look seriously at European politics today without taking account of the significance of the Euro-Communists.
    Mr. Jay: As the Prime Minister stated in a letter of 30th September to the General Secretary of the Labour Party that major reforms of the common agricultural policy and more genuine parliamentary control over EEC legislation were necessary, can my hon. Friend say when the Government will be bringing forward proposals to achieve both these aims?
    Mr. Judd: The Government are working continuously for both these objectives. We have made it clear on every possible occasion that in terms of the CAP we want to see steps taken to remove unnecessary costly surpluses and to make sure that the interests of producers, which are important, are effectively balanced by the interests of consumers.
    Mr. Thorpe: Although the Minister is not responsible for Her Majesty's official Opposition, when he meets the French Foreign Minister does he feel that he will be in a position to assure him that the determination of Her Majesty's Government that we should reach the target date of 1978 for direct elections is obviously shared by the Front Bench and Back Benches of the Tory Opposition and that it is unlikely that they will do anything to sabotage those attempts and defer European elections until 1979 or thereafter?
    Mr. Judd: I shall certainly draw the attention of my right hon. Friend to that point.

    Enlargement
    Mr. Arnoldasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he is satisfied with the progress being made towards enlargement
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    of the EEC; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Moateasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the progress of negotiations relating to the enlargement of the EEC.
    Dr. Owen: Negotiations are in progress on Greek accession. The procedure under the treaty is that the Portuguese and Spanish applications have been referred by the Council of Foreign Ministers to the Commission and its opinion is expected early in 1978.
    Mr. Arnold: Do the Government recognise that the usual transitional arrangements for five years may need to be modified in the case of Spain, Greece and Portugal? Is it not the case that the Spanish Government have been talking about a transitional period of up to 15 years, and is not that quite reasonable?
    Dr. Owen: I think that the Spanish Prime Minister, Senor Suarez, made clear only a few days ago that Spain was looking for a normal transitional period. Whether that can be achieved is difficult to judge without seeing the Commission's assessment. But no one should doubt that the Community, in making a decision to enlarge from nine to 12, will face some formidable problems of adjustment, not least in the economic issues and the whole question of common agricultural produce for the Mediterranean.
    Mr. Moate: Does the Foreign Secretary accept that there will be widespread agreement for the statement in the Prime Minister's letter to the General Secretary of the Labour Party that there will be far less danger of an over-centralised, over-bureaucratised, over-harmonised Community with 12 member States than with nine? Will the Foreign Secretary confirm, therefore, his full support for the principle of the earliest possible membership of Spain, Portugal and Greece, and that there will be no question of any free membership preparatory period as has been suggested in the case of Spain?
    Dr. Owen: I certainly declare my unequivocal support for enlargement from nine to 12. I believe that it is crucially important in order to buttress the democratic and political elements for which

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    I believe the European Community stands most strongly.
    Over-centralisation and over-bureaucratisation are criticisms which are made of the Community in its existing form, and which are frequently made in this House. I have considerable sympathy for them. The Prime Minister was making clear that, in increasing the membership to 12, one will not want the sort of detailed harmonisation that some people want. That in no way means that by going from nine to 12 one would be weakening, the Community. Taking such a political decision would, I believe, be strengthening the Community.
    Mr. Sillars: Does the Foreign Secretary agree that if the Community were enlarged through Scotland gaining independent representation at Council of Ministers level, that independence would not be equal to separation?
    Dr. Owen: There is a great deal of regional and even national autonomy within the Community. There is no doubt that Britain, when discussing the devolution of Scotland, will insist on the unity of the United Kingdom. That is central for us all, and that is central to the devolution Bills now before the House. That principle will apply in all areas of foreign and international relations.
    Mr. Dykes: Was not the Foreign Secretary a little reckless in suggesting in his last but one answer that much harmonisation should be put aside as a result of enlargement? Is that not tantamount to saying that many of the precepts built into the treaty—the constitution of the Community—should no longer be followed by the Commission in drafting legislation?
    Dr. Owen: The House itself takes views on these issues and I believe that the Scrutiny Committee recently drew attention to the question of harmonising doorstep salesmen in the Community. It is that sort of harmonisation and over-bureaucratisation that both critics and supporters of entry unite in condemning and consider unnecessary. The Commission would be well advised to put aside that sort of thing now.
    Mr. Raphael Tuck: Have the Government done anything to persuade Spain
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    to give better treatment to Gibraltar as a condition of the Government's consenting to Spain's joining the Common-Market?
    Dr. Owen: No. Her Majesty's Government's attitude to Spain and Gibraltar is clear. It is to welcome Spanish entry to the European Community for wider political and democratic reasons. It is also to make clear to the Spanish people that any community which involved political, economic and all the other responsibilities of membership would find it difficult to have a situation in which, for example, we could if we wished—though we do not, because of the new improved climate between our two countries—have the existing restrictions condemned, say, in the Belgrade conference. We are aiming to improve Spanish relations with this country and, at the same time, with the Gibraltarian people so that this issue can be resolved between democratic States and democratic peoples, giving full account to the views of the people of Gibraltar.
    Mr. Hurd: May we pin down the Foreign Secretary a little on the general point? Does he now agree with us that, contrary to the impression given in the Prime Minister's letter to the General Secretary of the Labour Party, he sees enlargement not as a way of weakening the Community but as an opportunity to reopen for discussion some of the methods and workings of the Community which have proved unsatisfactory?
    Dr. Owen: One of the aspects that might come out of enlargement is that the decision-making structure of the Community is looked at. Some feel that the whole of the common agricultural policy should be examined. I think that one of the "fall-outs "of enlargement is that some of these problems can be concentrated on. However, I feel that we should treat the applications for enlargement on their merits and not with preconditions. If we were to allow every member State to make its particular hobbyhorse a precondition of enlargement we should not get on with that process. We stand strongly and firmly for enlargement and we believe that it will strengthen the Community. It will, however, change the Community. A Community of 12 will be different in political shape, structure and content from a Community of nine.

    Common Fisheries Policy
    Mrs. Winifred Ewingasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what initiatives he will take to ensure that Her Majesty's Government will secure reform of the common fisheries policy, in terms of policies and timing.
    Mr. Judd: The Government are continuing to press energetically for an early and satisfactory revision of the common fisheries policy. We have made it clear that this is one of our major objectives in the Community.
    Mrs. Ewing: I thank the Minister for agreeing that the matter is of extreme urgency. Will he tell the House what legal room he considers he has, under present arrangements, to declare a 50-mile unilateral limit for conservation purposes? Our fishermen hunt for fish for human consumption, not—as many do in the other member States—for industrial consumption, and are, therefore, better conservationists. Will not the hon. Gentleman also realise that these fishermen, who were pawns in terms of EEC entry, are now—and this is a very serious matter —pawns in the common fisheries negotiations with third countries, and that the 65 per cent—.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Question Time is a time not for argument but for questions.
    Mr. Judd: I entirely agree with the hon. Lady that conservation must be a priority in any future policy. If agreement is not soon reached, stocks of fish may be damaged beyond repair.
    Mr. James Johnson: Is my hon. Friend the Minister of State aware that in this Chamber a few days ago his colleague, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, stated that at the last Ministers' meeting he had been so incensed that he had stated that he might go it alone if he were forced to do so. Is that Her Majesty's Government's policy? Would my hon. Friend care to comment?
    Mr. Judd: The Government's policy is to work for a sensible common fisheries policy. However, to be sensible and effective that policy must take account of the fact that approximately 60 per cent. of
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    the stocks of fish available to the Community are in British waters. Furthermore, our fellow members of the Community must recognise the contribution that is being made by Britain towards the Community's needs. That is something that we are determined to see reflected in the outcome of the discussions about a policy.
    Mr. Powell: Can we be sure of securing our objectives on this, or any other, vital matter if we have bound our hands in advance by declaring our membership of the Community to be permanent and unalterable?
    Mr. Judd: The right hon. Gentleman knows better than most that no Parliament can bind any successor, but what we have repeatedly said is that we are now determined to work as hard and as effectively as we can, together with our colleagues in the Community, to make the best of the Community in the interests of our own people, as well as those of the people of the Community as a whole. The interests of Britain will be better served by getting on with that than by continuing to argue whether the decision in the referendum was right or wrong.
    Mr. Scott-Hopkins: Will the ban on herring fishing in most of the waters around our coast continue into 1978–79?
    Mr. Judd: We are determined to take wheatever measures are necessary for conservation. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be pursuing this point with my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

    Direct Elections
    Mr. Dykesasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he plans to hold in November and December with the Foreign Ministers of the other member States of the Community on the progress being made in each to introduce direct elections to the European Parliament in 1978.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. John Tomlinson): It has been agreed to review the progress of legislation in the

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    member States at each meeting of the Foreign Affairs Council. The Council will meet on 22nd November and on 19th and 20th December.
    Mr. Dykes: What would be the grounds and reasons that would cause the Government to feel justified in asking other member States to postpone these elections until 1979?
    Mr. Tomlinson: The Government have no intention at present of asking them to do so. As the House is well aware, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister told the House on 3rd November that the Bill for direct elections will be presented tomorrow, and judgment will have to be made in the light of the progress made on the Bill.
    Mr. Jim Marshall: Will my hon. Friend impress upon his colleagues in Europe that in the unlikely event of the direct elections Bill passing through the House and, as a consequence, direct elections, unfortunately, taking place, Her Majesty's Government will vigorously oppose any attempt on the part of that directly-elected Assembly to take powers away from the Council of Ministers?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I cannot agree with the hypothesis upon which my hon. Friend poses his question. I am sure that when legislation passes through the House and when we have direct elections the Council of Ministers will be fully aware of its responsibilities in relation to national Parliaments.
    Mr. Kilfedder: Is it not an insult to the long-suffering people of Northern Ireland that, until there are direct elections, Northern Ireland will be the only region of the United Kingdom that is not directly represented in the Common Market Parliament? Is this not a disgraceful situation which has existed since the Tories were last in office? What do the Government intend to do to ensure that justice is provided for Northern Ireland, which has so often been lectured by successive Governments about democracy—
    Mr. Tomlinson: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows that this matter should be raised through the usual channels. It is not something that is directly related to the House.
    Mr. MacFarquhar: Can my hon. Friend, in pursuance of his earlier remark
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    about the Prime Minister's statement of 3rd November, confirm reports that the Government will introduce a guillotine motion on the direct elections Bill immediately after Second Reading?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I am sure that my hon. Friend will recognise that that is a question that is best directed to people other than me.
    Mr. Hurd: The Minister is using his best endeavours, but does he not think it lamentable that the Government should have wasted a full year on this and brought us to the present difficulty? With the benefit of hindsight, does he not regret that he did not take our advice a year ago and start the Bill then, in which case the details of the voting system and all the other difficulties would have been satisfactorily settled and we would be ready, with the other countries, to meet the target date?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I am sure that the House will watch with interest which voting system the hon. Member and his friends choose to follow when the Bill is before the House. It is clearly the case that if the House adopts the Government's preferred system, which is outlined in the Bill, there is a possibility of attaining the agreed timetable, but if hon. Members opposite pursue the view that they are now expressing they will hold a degree of responsibility for our not being able to meet the timetable on time.
    Mr. Thorpe: In agreeing with the hon. Member for Mid-Oxon (Mr. Hurd) that we regret the delay in the introduction of the Bill, and in accepting his implied thanks to the Liberal Party for getting it back on the agenda of politics—which thanks I am sure he would like to express —may I ask the Minister to try to discover whether the Tory Party will be as good Europeans as they claim and vote for the only system that will make it possible for elections to take place next year?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that those of us who wish to see this Bill pass through the House will look forward eagerly to the actions of Conservative Members. The decision that I understand a number of Conservative Members will take in relation to their preferred system, as opposed

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    to that in the Bill, is one that will leave them with a high degree of responsibility for delay in meeting the timetable of commitments into which we have entered.
    Mrs. Bain: In his negotiations, will the Minister make it clear to other EEC members that the people of Scotland regard it as a gross insult that they have been allocated only eight seats in the European Parliament? If he believes that there is any integrity in the so-called unity of the kingdom, will be guarantee that Scotland is at least given parity with Denmark, particularly when it is deprived of the right of veto?
    Mr. Tomlinson: The situation is quite clear. The number of seats that have been allocated to the United Kingdom is 81, and we propose that these 81 seats should be allocated proportionately to the various parts of the United Kingdom. Thus, if the hon. Lady's desire were followed, it is clear that any increase in representation for Scotland could be done only at the expense of other parts of the United Kingdom, which would give it a disproportional e representation in relation to the rest of the kingdom.
    Mr. John Mendelson: When my hon. Friend refers to the Government's preferred electoral system, will he bear in mind and confirm that many right hon. and hon. Members on the Government Benches are grimly determined that the system should not be changed, and that the Government have no mandate from the Labour Party or any other political party—apart from a small number of Liberal Members—to play about with or change our electoral system?
    Mr. Tomlinson: Obviously, I take note of what my hon. Friend says, but he has no more basis than I have for any assertion about what the views are at the moment, because the opinion of the House has not yet been tested. I look forward to supporting the Government's preferred system, as I believe it is the right system and one which will give us the opportunity of meeting our target obligations by 1978.
    Mr. John Davies: Is the Minister aware how pleasant it is to be able to agree so wholeheartedly with his hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson)? Is it not a fact that the Government, in the person of the Prime
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    Minister, have given a solemn assurance that there will be a free vote on the subject, as have the Opposition? Is the Minister now seeking to imply that that will not be the case in the course of this operation?
    Mr. Tomlinson: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will recall that the Prime Minister said there would be a free vote on the method. That is when we shall have the opportunity of testing the view of the House. I have stated quite clearly my view in relation to the Government's preferred system, and I equally stated quite clearly that the Opposition would have a large degree of responsibility if, by their vote in a free vote, they delayed the implementation of something to which, allegedly, they were committed.
    Mr. Kilfedder: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I seek your guidance and help? A short time ago, in a supplementary question, I sought from the Government a statement of what action they intended to take to ensure that democracy was provided to Northern Ireland, in the sense that it would now have a representative in the Common Market Parliament. I was told by the Minister responsible that I should seek the information through the usual channels.
    I was elected as a.Member of this House by my constituents to raise matters on the Floor of the House in public. I think it is a disgraceful situation that I am told to go behind the Chair to find out what the Government intend to do. In fact, I think the answer is an attempt to hide from the people of Northern Ireland that the Government intend to do nothing. The fault also lies with the Tory Party—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I am seeking not to stop the hon. Gentleman apportioning blame but to ask him what is the point of order.
    Mr. Kilfedder: The point of order, Mr. Speaker, is quite simply that I have no usual parliamentary channels. Therefore, will you tell me how I can force the Government to do what they are always telling the Ulster people to do, namely, to provide democracy—in this case to Northern Ireland—and elect a

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    Member to the Common Market Parliament?
    Mr. Speaker: I fear that all that I can do for the hon. Gentleman is to give him my sympathy. I am unable to decide the content of Ministers' answers.
    Mrs. Winifred Ewing: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. On a fundamental matter of democracy concerning 1·5 million approximate people—[Interruption.] The approximation was intended not as an insult to the people of Ireland but only to my lack of statistical knowledge. May I ask for your guidance, Mr. Speaker? Is it in order for matters of fundamental democracy to be brushed aside with the suggestion that this House is run by people called Whips? I know that they are mysterious people, but is this not a very serious infringement of the rights of the House?
    Mr. Speaker: Order. For as long as I have been in the House there have been complaints about answers from Ministers, and apparently a general dislike—I do not want to make any enemies—of the Whip system, but it is part of our being.

FIRE SERVICE (DISPUTE)
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Merlyn Rees): I wish to make a statement about Fire Service pay and the threatened strike in the Fire Service.
In September, the Fire Brigades Union submitted a claim to the National Joint Council for local authorities' fire brigades. The claim is that the qualified fireman should be paid an annual salary equivalent to a total of the average weekly earnings of adult male workers, plus 10 per cent. to take account of the skills and dangers inherent in their duties. This would mean an increase of about 30 per cent. Similar increases would be sought for other members of the service, up to and including sub-officer.
On 3rd November, the employers' side of the National Joint Council made a three-part offer. This was: to increase earnings by 10 per cent. from 7th November 1977; to continue discussions on the appropriate future position of firemen in the national pay structure; and to continue discussions on a reduction in
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the working week from the present 48 hours.
At a recalled delegate conference of the union held at Eastbourne on 7th November, the executive council of the union recommended that the conference should approve negotiations continuing within this framework and that the outcome should be reported back to a further recalled conference within a few weeks. This recommendation was rejected by conference and a resolution was carried calling for strike action to begin on Monday 14th November in the event of failure to settle the union's claim before that date.
The Secretary of State for Scotland and I met representatives of the employers' side and of the union yesterday. We reaffirmed that there could be no question of any settlement with effect from 7th November which was not within the limits of the Government's guidelines on pay. We made it clear again that the Government recognised the need to establish a formula for determining Fire Service pay. We welcomed the fact that the National Joint Council was seeking through established negotiating procedures to achieve this. We said again that the Government would closely follow discussion on this subject in the National Joint Council, though the phasing of any further pay increase would have to be considered in the light of circumstances prevailing at the time.
We also repeated that the Government recognised that there was a long-standing claim for a reduction in the 48-hour week of the firemen and would now be prepared for a reduction in working hours to be negotiated. It would not be possible to implement any reduction before the autumn of 1978, although preparation, including the recruitment of additional firemen for training, could begin before then.
We urged yesterday that discussions on both of these issues should continue without delay. The two sides assured us that they would.
The Secretary of State for Scotland and I told those who came to see us yesterday that we stood ready to meet representatives of the National Joint Council at any time.
It is the Government's duty to do all that they can to protect life and

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property in the situation which faces us. We have made preparations to this end. Plans have been prepared by central Government and by fire authorities, with the Services, and will be ready to be put into operation on 14th November. Emergency fire appliances are being made available to fire authorities and Service men are being specially trained to man them. With this assistance, fire authorities will provide the best possible fire cover.
We are issuing guidance through Government Departments and local authorities on the precautions to be taken in factories, schools, hospitals, old people's homes and so on, and we shall issue advice to the public about precautions to take in their homes. Each of us in our own community should do the best we can to help those less able to help themselves. I understand from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland that similar arrangements would be made in Northern Ireland should that be necessary.
With the best that all of us can do by way of these precautions I am under no illusions that they can match the fire cover provided by the regular Fire Service. There remains serious risk of loss of life and damage to property. The serious consequences that must follow any national strike in the Fire Service are incalculable.
In conclusion, I recognise how much we all depend on the Fire Service and on the willingness of its members to turn out at the call of duty and face the difficulties and dangers their work involves. I share the wish of the Fire Brigades Union and its members to see their pay based on a formula which recognises their value to the community. I want to see discussions of that and of a reduction in the working week pressed forward. I can understand that firemen feel that they have waited a long time. None the less, I ask them, even at this late date, to think again.
An immediate increase of 10 per cent. in earnings is on the table. Firemen will share in the benefits that will come to us from the maintenance of the guidelines on pay. The discussions on a pay formula and on reduction of the working week hold out for the first time great and longlooked-for promise for the future. I ask the members of the union to weigh the benefits to them of what is on offer and
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the disasters and tragedies which may be the consequences of a strike.
Mr. Whitelaw: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that if, alas, any further negotiations fail to produce agreement and the strike takes place, we shall support any measures which the Government consider necessary for the protection of the public? In particular, can he assure the House and the country that every effort will be made to ensure that the emergency 999 telephone system will continue to operate?
Mr. Rees: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for what he said. There are a number of aspects where 999 telephones work through the police switchboard, and so on. It may vary in different parts of the country. I shall be issuing a circular to authorities about various aspects—for example, the situation on motorways, where the Fire Service does an excellent job extricating people involved in accidents. There is also the question what sort of radio communication there will be. It may vary from one area to another. The advice that we are giving and the advice that we have received—for it is a two-way process—has been worked on for some days. I have set up an operations centre at the Home Office. But the local authorities are responsible for fire services. It is not a national responsibility. However, the point the right hon. Gentleman raised is one of many which we expect will be attended to, if in different ways.
Mr. Sillars: Will the Home Secretary reaffirm what he said earlier—that the best possible fire cover cannot provide an alternative to what we get at the moment from a highly-trained professional, skilled Fire Service? Is the Home Secretary aware of the feeling of men on the fire stations that there can be no settlement without an increased offer? Unless an increased offer is forthcoming, the men will hit the streets in a bitter mood on Monday morning.
I ask the Home Secretary, given his forward commitment to the police, which demonstrates that the 10 per cent. limit is not only non-statutory but also flexible, to say that he recognises that the firemen are a special case in so far as they have to go into buildings from which everyone else is desperately trying to escape.
Mr. Rees: I reaffirm what my hon. Friend said about the scope of the fire cover provided by Fire Service men, including retained firemen and their officers, That is right. But when my hon. Friend makes comparisons, I must point out that the 10 per cent figure has been the same in all cases in any discussions I have had dealing with my various responsibilities. He is an ex-fireman and knows the basis of this problem. In the 10 years during which I have been associated with the Fire Service, at their conference each year what firemen sought more than any thing else was a reduction in the 48-hour week which marked them as different from everybody else. We have now said that straight away we can begin the training of new firemen. It will take about a year.
It will mean that in mid-year there will be people trained. It needs discussions on the various forms of rota. The aim is to get to a 42-hour week.
I believe that that commitment, which we allowed to go forward through the NJC, is one of the most important that the Fire Service has had during the past 25 years. It is a commitment that I hope firemen will think about very carefully.
Mr. Pardoe: Does the Secretary of State recognise that, whatever the delays and frustrations suffered over a long period by firemen in their demands, the Government's proposals as put forward by him and his colleagues yesterday are fair and reasonable? Does he recognise that although in this case withdrawal of labour may literally mean death, he has no alternative but to stand firm, and that the whole House must support him in his last-minute appeal to the better nature of the firemen?
Mr. Rees: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he has said on behalf of his party. The results of the judgment we all make are incalculable. I do not believe that at the end of the day, despite what was said at the conference, people will sit by and watch other people die. That is not the Fire Service that I have known over the past 10 or 15 years. But if that is the way it will be, I must take every step that I have taken to save life. However the matter looks now in the newspapers, we must think of the effect in a community if people die in an old people's home as a result of fire. The
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kick-backs on the Government if we have not taken the right steps, on the local authority, whose legal responsibility it is, and on those who are the cause will be incalculable in a developing situation.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I intend to take only one more question from each side.
Mr. Heffer: My right hon. Friend is correct to say that the firemen are not taking this decision lightly. Is my right hon. Friend aware that I and other Members on the Labour Benches who have met firemen have never met such frustration and anger among any section of workers, including the police, who also have been to see me on occasion? Is he also aware that if there is a strike—I hope that there will not be one—we shall still have to come round the table? It is better to get round the table, almost as a continuous session, than to have a strike. I ask my right hon. Friend, even at this late hour, to intervene, intervene and intervene until a settlement is reached, otherwise, we shall have a chaotic situation, with loss of life, which neither the firemen nor anyone else want.
Mr. Rees: My hon. Friend is correct in his first statement. He is also correct that negotiations are the best way through. But to negotiate at the end of the day, when frightful things will have happened, is the wrong way to set about it. Not only with firemen but with policemen—and I have a responsibility in broadcasting as well—I must take into account that as we emerge from a statutory pay policy the dangers of what would happen overall if one gave in in that respect are far greater for the community as a whole.
Sir J. Eden: I pay tribute to the skill and dedication of the members of the Fire Service and share the hope that the strike does not take place. Will the right hon. Gentleman see that the fire authorities, in conjunction with the relevant military units, identify special areas of high risk and particularly places where elderly and infirm people live, including those who live on their own, for whom communications may be very difficult? Many of them are already suffering enough anxiety as a result of the power cuts.
Mr. Rees: I was wrong just now. I did not mean "statutory ". I meant an

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inflexible policy. [Laughter.] It is not an amusing matter.
On the question of special areas of risk, what I authorised a day or two ago was for the chief executives, the chiefs of police, the chief fire officers and the local army commanders to talk together about all the problems in advance of making firm decisions. As will be seen from the circular which I shall issue and which I shall put in the Library, of course it matters that the social services department in a locality should play its part, although it cannot be laid down in hard and fast terms. It may be that in old people's homes there will be need for extra guard during this period, and I know that the local authorities will play their part. But, as I said in my statement, there will need to be help to people living nearby of whom one knows, and in certain areas that is easier than in others. The community will have to help in this. The Government will do their part and the local authorities will do their part. Everybody has to help in this situation, because it is fraught with the greatest difficulty.
Mr. Crouch: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. There is one aspect on which the Home Secretary has not been questioned and has not been able to answer. I wonder whether it is possible to put a question to him about the situation in rural areas.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: I think that it would be unfair to the House if I reopened questions after what I said. It seems to me to be the general wish of the House to move on.

EUROPEAN COMMUNITY (AGRICULTURE MINISTERS' MEETING)
The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. John Silkin): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to report on a recent meeting of the Council of Agriculture Ministers.
The Council met in Brussels on 7th and 8th November when I was assisted by my hon. Friends the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Under-Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection.
There was a first discussion of a Commission proposal to phase out monetary
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compensatory amounts over the next seven years and of the Commission's report on the possibility of replacing the present unit of account on which MCAs are based by a different basis, the European unit of account. The Commission's report concluded that in principle the EUA was the right unit to use but that there are a number of possible common price levels at which the present differing national prices could be realigned. I hold the view that a decision on the right price level must precede any decision on phasing out MCAs.
I reminded the Council of the problems which continue to face United Kingdom pig producers and processors because of the unfair calculation of MCAs in this sector. I obtained an assurance that the Commission would come forward as quickly as possible with the result of its study into trade distortions resulting from MCAs for which I pressed at earlier Councils.
The Council agreed that the special arrangements under which 27,532 tonnes of beef are imported without duty and with special reduced levies from the beef exporting countries which are signatories to the Lomé Convention should be continued for a further year. I welcome this. The Commission is still considering Botswana's request for an increase in her levy-reduced quota for this year which we continue to support.
The Commission reported on proposals for expenditure derived from the milk co-responsibility levy, including a contribution to an expanded school milk programme and greater emphasis on promotion and advertising. We emphasised the need to encourage the consumption of milk and milk products within the Community rather than relying on heavily subsidised sales to third countries.
The effects of the reduced apple crop in Europe this year were again examined by the Council and it was decided that the common customs tariff should be reduced by almost 60 per cent. until 31st January next. An equivalent reduction will be made in the tariff applied in the United Kingdom.
The Council considered a French request for a small derogation from the ban on the catching of North Sea herring, and agreed that coastal fishermen at certain ports between Etaples and

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the Seine should be permitted to catch 600 tonnes of herring, provided that their boats were of 30 tonnes or less and used drift nets only. The Council also agreed that a technical study should be carried out to see whether a more general derogation limited to small boats should be introduced.
Mr. Peyton: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman, first, whether he agrees that the present level of MCAs is enabling a flood of artificially cheapened imports of butter, pigmeat and beef to come into this country, thereby doing great damage to the livestock producer and undermining confidence? Does he agree that he has been talking about this matter for long enough, that the time has come for action, and that he should consider a measure of devaluation of the green pound? I suggest that 7½ per cent. is about the necessary level now.
Secondly, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that whilst I agree with him that the European unit of account is probably the more appropriate one, I do not agree that the issue of settling the MCAs must await the settlement of this other problem?
Can the right hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that our producers here are receiving equal treatment with those elsewhere as regards the co-responsibility levy? In particular, can he say whether finance for promotion here will be available from this source in the New Year?
I am obliged also to ask the right hon. Gentleman why he could not make some more substantial reference to the problems of the fisheries industry? His reference today has been only on the very edge of this extremely serious problem. Perhaps he would like to take the opportunity today to confirm that he is still looking for a 50-mile management zone for this country.
Finally, will he, at some time, take an opportunity to fill in the large gaps left in his statement, which makes no reference to sheepmeat, potatoes or the price of milk, the last issue having been left unsettled for far too long?
Mr. Silkin: With regard to the fifth of those questions, I made no reference
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to sheepmeat, potatoes or the price of milk because it is my duty, and my pleasant duty, to inform the House of what took place at the Council of Ministers. As none of those three topics was discussed, it seemed a little superfluous even to mention them.
With regard to the fishing industry, what has happened— and I think that it is more sensible than what has taken place in the past—is that there is a separate fisheries council. There was a meeting about a fortnight ago and there will be another one in a month's time. In general, I do not think it a good thing that agriculture and fishery questions should come together because, on the whole, there is a roughly equal distribution of agriculture Ministers who are also fishery Ministers, but one has to bring in different fishery Ministers from the other countries, and it is very confusing.
The point about this particular Council was that we had to discuss the question of a French derogation on herrings because it was an urgent question. It was therefore put to the Agriculture Ministers when it might, for example, have been put to the Council of Foreign Ministers. I do not think, therefore, that it is apposite at this moment to go into what will in fact be the main discussion—the common fisheries policy on 5th and 6th December when we come to discuss the whole fisheries question and have two days on that.
I turn now to the other points made by the right hon. Gentleman. He wants me to devalue the green pound now because the present level of MCAs is too high and causes cheap food to come into this country. At least, as I understand it, that is what he says. It seems to depend a great deal on the audience to whom he is speaking. When he is speaking to the producers, he is all for much higher prices for them. When he is speaking to the consumers, he wants to keep prices down. Perhaps I can find a way round for him. If he cares to study it, he will see that the National Food Survey shows the interesting fact that when the price of commodities—I am thinking particularly of meat and butter—goes up, the consumption goes down. That is not good for the producer, and it is not good for the country.
The answer to the question of the devaluation of the green pound is that

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I have never made this a matter of theology. The green pound will be devalued or not as the national interest, and only the national interest, dictates.
With regard to the European unit of account, the EUA. I think that I have adopted the right basis on this. If the right hon. Gentleman cares to study the Commission's report—which has only just become available, as perhaps the right hon. Gentleman knows—he will find in, I think, paragraph 14, that the Commission says that the present unit of account—the present green currency —is unrepresentative because it affects the snake currencies—that is, it says, 37 per cent. of agricultural products and 35 per cent. of population. Why therefore, it should be so willing to have continue for another seven years a system which it regards as unrepresentative is beyond me.
The right hon. Gentleman asked about the co-responsibility levy. Belgium has said that it will sign, and that is all right. There arc certain areas in Italy representing a very small proportion where, for one reason or another, it appears to be extremely difficult to collect the co-responsibility levy—where one man is looking after a buffalo or a goat somewhere in Southern Italy, for example. The Council, having listened to the case, was fully persuaded of it.
With regard to promotion, I hope that that will start in the New Year.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Let me tell the House that I must be fair to those who arc anxious to speak in the major debate which will follow today. I hope that right hon. and hon. Members who are called will be as brief as they can, because we cannot allow the normal time for questioning today.
Mr. Grimond: Is the Minister aware that there is still anxiety in the North of Scotland over the price of store cattle? This is due, partly at any rate, to the valuation of the green pound. Can he hold out any hope of action in the near future?
Secondly, I am sure that he will not be surprised to know that I feel I must make some protest about the exception for herring fishing for the French. When I asked for an exception for Shetlanders,
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I was told that all exceptions were quite impossible. If exceptions are to be made, the Shetlanders have an extremely good case. When it comes to further exceptions, will he take into account not only small boats hut also those who want a small allocation for their processing industries?
Mr. Silkin: With regard to the first question, on cattle, I am persuaded that, at the moment, conditions are reasonably all right for beef, because we needed in any event to import a large quantity of beef as it was in short supply. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that matters may look different in the New Year, and I shall watch the situation carefully.
The derogation in favour of the French is limited—this was the basis on which I agreed to it—to the very small French drifters out of the area between the Seine and Etaples. The Commission has promised to consider making the Seine derogation. I know that it affects, for example, a couple of boats in the Western Isles—and I had that as much in mind as anything else—and also the East Anglian fisheries. All those need to be considered. We are not talking about a large tonnage. In the Shetlands, alas, there are much bigger boats and much bigger tonnages.
But the conditions that I imposed for agreeing to the derogation are of some importance in the general fishing strategy. The first was the acceptance by the Council—and the Council did accept it—that only the coastal State was in a position to undertake the enforcement of conservation within its coastal waters. That was an important factor. I underlined it twice. I found, instead of the usual antagonism, smiles from the French and, indeed, from others of my Council colleagues. So we can take that as a reasonable principle.
The second basis was that if, by some chance, which I did not believe would happen and was assured would not happen, French or any other fishing boats came looking for herring within our waters, they would be treated with the utmost severity, as so many others have been during the past 10 months.
Mr. McNamara: The Minister will be aware that many of us are concerned about education and school milk. Can

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my right hon. Friend give the House more information? Can he say whether his colleagues in the Cabinet support the extension of the school milk principle to those children who were deprived of milk under successive Labour and Tory Governments?
Mr. Silkin: It is rather difficult at the moment to go into the details of this, because they are not altogether clear. However, what seems to be clear is that at least £15 million—translating the units of account into present currency—will be available for an expansion of the school milk programme throughout the Community. I say "at least "; it could be more. It is rather unclear at the moment. What the United Kingdom's share of that would be has not yet been stated. All these factors will have to be looked into, obviously, when we know what the exact facts are. But it may be a little while before we do.
Mr. David Price: What comfort can the Minister offer to British pig producers as a result of his statement, when he knows from the Meat Livestock Commission that the average losses of the most efficient farmer at the moment are more than £2 a pig?
Mr. Silkin: The only comfort that I can offer the pig producer at the moment is that, fortunately, feeding stuff prices have fallen quite considerably since last year, as the hon. Gentleman knows, and therefore he is benefiting from that. In addition, pig prices have risen, and he is benefiting from that.
As for the calculation, there is a slight degree of comfort. When I raised the matter—because I had been promised that it would be on the agenda in October —I had the full support of the French and Italian delegations and more than a hint from the Commission that it was looking very seriously into the calculation.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: I propose to take two more questions from each side.
Mr. Jay: When will the Government bring forward the major proposals for reform of the common agricultural policy which were promised in the Prime Minister's interesting letter?
Mr. Silkin: I think that we have made a considerable start on this. The basic, immediate fault—no doubt there are others, and they will be dealt with in due course—is the very high common price level within the Community. We have been making a very strong effort on this, and it seems to us that we are getting some support not only from the Commission—which is now using very nearly the same language as us ; we should like it to go a little further, but it is coming closer—but also, rather surprisingly, in accents of a different character from inside the Council of Ministers itself.
Mr. Powell: Reverting to herring, will the right hon. Gentleman use the emergency derogation which has been accorded to French small boat fishermen in order to secure something this year, and not—as I know he already intends —next year, for the Mourne fishermen, who are, so far as one can tell, in exactly the same position?
Mr. Sikin: I am sorry that I omitted the Mourne fishermen in talking about the small boat fishermen in the United Kingdom. Frankly, we are not really talking about a large degree of tonnage. That is why I believe that it will be found possible to make some concession to the small boat fishermen. I should like to do that, but I must be bound—and that must be the view of the United Kingdom on this—by what the scientific evidence tells us. My own feeling is that the scientific evidence will probably tell us that there is not a great deal of harm in making this derogation.
Mr. Tomney: Has the Minister been able to make any progress with the EEC about our meat manufacturing and bacon curing industries which are in a very serious position at the moment and which will, if action is not taken, suffer considerable redundancy of workers?
Mr. Silkin: In many ways, the bacon processors, in particular, are now in a worse position than the pig producers. They are being squeezed by higher prices and their own difficulties in competition with imported products. I accept that fully. That was why I introduced the question of the calculation of pigmeat MCAs and why I intend to see that we move towards it again at the next Agriculture Council meeting.
Mr. Watt: I recognise that the Minister has fulfilled his role as Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food to the full, but does he nevertheless acknowledge that he is doing permanent damage to the pig-breeding and the beef-breeding herds which are at this moment being sold off? Will he not, even at this late stage, adopt the suggestion that I put to him some time ago and devalue the green pound by 1 per cent. per month?
Mr. Silkin: In the first place, I must tell the hon. Gentleman that I do not accept what he said. It is a very difficult job being the Minister for agriculture, fisheries and food and keeping the balance between the lot. But I do not think that there is quite as much of a contradiction as the hon. Gentleman thinks between seeing that food is produced at a reasonable price and looking after the consumers' interests in that way, as well as looking after the producers' interests. As for his suggestion about a 1 per cent. devaluation of the green pound based on a unit that the Commission says is unrepresentative and applies to only 35 per cent. of the population of the Community, if we take the EUA we are only 12·1 per cent. away from the norm, whereas the Germans are 23 per cent., and that seems to me to be absolutely ridiculous.

FIRE SERVICE (DISPUTE)
Mr. Sillars: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely,
" the grave threat to public safety and the future of the Fire Service if a Government-imposed but non-statutory wages limit causes firemen to strike from Monday next."
I submit that this application falls properly within the terms of Standing Order No. 9. It is specific in that it relates to the issue of the first-ever national strike of firemen, the date of which is known. Its importance cannot be over-emphasised. Today, people, their domestic property, commercial undertakings and industry en-enjoy a 24-hour fire and emergency cover from teams of highly skilled, highly motivated firemen. To perform the work of a fireman and thereby provide cover for the community requires a high degree of train
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ing in the technique of fire fighting, a sound knowledge of building construction and design, an understanding of hydraulics, a good grasp of topography, a recognition of the hazards presented by modern materials and chemicals, and, above all, experience, guts and a high morale.
The Fire Service is a highly specialised one. There is no ready-made substitute. The Army cannot provide an alternative. London alone has 450 calls a day and needs 5,500 trained men to give a 24-hour cover to this city. Troops running to fires with out-of-date fire engines cannot adequately replace professional firemen equipped with modern fire appliances and trained to cope with the trauma of fire.
The matter is urgent because the Fire Brigades Union and the Government have made no progress towards a settlement. If the House is to debate the issue before a firemen's strike becomes an appalling reality, it can only be today or tomorrow. Perhaps the urgency of the situation can best be summed up by an old slogan from a fire prevention campaign of the 1960s, "What burns never returns ", and that applies to people and property.
It is my submission that the House cannot let matters drift until next week. Lives lost in the horror of fire is what is at stake. That is what makes a debate so urgent.
Finally, in trying to persuade you, Mr. Speaker, and the House to hold an emergency debate, may I direct attention to what happened on 28th March 1960, when 14 members of the Glasgow Fire Brigade and five members of the Salvage Corps lost their lives in the whisky bond disaster. On 29th March 1960, the then Secretary of State for Scotland said :
" This disaster is a reminder of the hazards that members of our fire brigades and salvage corps constanly face with unfailing courage and devotion to duty and the men who were killed have given their lives in upholding the great traditions of their service. "
Tom Fraser, then leading for the Labour Opposition on Scottish affairs, carried the whole House with him when he said
" It is only on occasions such as this that we have brought home to us the great services that these people render to the rest of the community. "—[Officio! Report, 29th March 1960 ; Vol. 620 cc. 1141–42.]
I have used these quotations to illustrate that firemen have never been short of sympathy when they are dead or when their

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mates have been killed. We have used up buckets of sympathy and wreaths of flowers at funerals. Surely it is not only on occasions such as this that we find time to debate the issue of the fireman and his contribution to society and, just as important, society's responsibility and that of this House to our firemen.
I believe that a debate could assist to achieve a settlement before strike action becomes inevitable on Monday. That is the reason I make the application, and I hope that it will be successful.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman gave me notice before noon today that he proposed to make this application under Standing Order No. 9 for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he thinks should have urgent consideration, namely,
" the grave threat to public safety and the future of the fire service if a Government-imposed but non-statutory wages limit causes firemen to strike from Monday next. "
The House knows that the hon. Member has raised an extremely important matter. When I give a ruling I never state the considerations that are in my mind and the reasons that lead me to it. I do not intend to grant the hon. Member's request at this stage.
Mr. Heffer: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I fully accept your decision, but if other hon. Members tomorrow felt that the matter, as a continuing question, is one that the House should discuss, would you then give consideration to that?
Mr. Speaker: It is impossible for me to say what my ruling would be tomorrow. I imagine, however, that same considerations would be borne in mind.
Mr. Arthur Lewis: With respect, Mr. Speaker, I am not questioning your ruling, but may I raise another matter? Are we not later today to debate the Loyal Address in reply to the Queen's Speech? That is only a matter of convenience. There is nothing in the Standing Orders which prevents any hon. Member, including my hon. Friend the Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Sillars), from raising this question. It may not be desired by the Government, it may not be welcomed by the Oppo-
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sition, but, with great respect, am I not correct in saying that if my hon Friends feel that this is a more important subject to debate than that which the usual channels have fixed they are at liberty to do so? I hope that my hon. Friends will do this, if only to teach the Government and the Opposition that there are some important matters that need to be debated.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is one of the most experienced Members. He is, of course, right in saying that the debate on the Queen's Speech is very broad, probably the broadest that we have throughout the year.
Mr. Heffer: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I apologise for intervening again. Of course any hon. Member can raise anything in the debate on the Queen's Speech, but we could not move a motion to ask the House to do something specific, which we could do in the event of an emergency debate. That is the difference. It is on that basis that hon. Members are raising this matter.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is also correct. He cannot move another motion during the debate on the Queen's Speech, but I have given my ruling and I must stand by it.

BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTIONS FOR FRIDAY 25th NOVEMBER
Members successful in the Ballot were:

Mr. Michael Spicer

Mr. Julian Ridsdale

Mr. Nigel Spearing

BILL PRESENTED
  EUROPEAN ASSEMBLY ELECTIONS
  Mr. Secretary Rees, supported by the Prime Minister, Mr. Secretary Owen, Mr. Secretary Mabon, Mr. Secretary Millan Mr. Secretary John Morris and Mr. Brynmor John, presented a Bill to make provision for and in connection with the election of representatives to the Assembly of the European Communities ; And the same was read the First time ; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 7.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  DEBATE ON THE ADDRESS [FIFTH DAY]
  Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [3rd November].
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, as follows:
  Most Gracious Sovereign,
  We, Your Majesty':; most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Common:; of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament.—[Mr. Bradley.]
  Question again proposed.

  EMPLOYMENT
  Mr. Speaker: I have selected the official Opposition amendment.
  4.20 p.m.
  Mr. James Prior: I beg to move, at the end of the Question,to add :
  But humbly regret that the Gracious Speech contains no proposals for creating the longterm business confidence essential to reduce unemployment and create prosperity in which all can share.
  I say to the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Lewis) that I feel that the problems with which we are very much concerned today over the attitude of the Fire Service has great relevance to this debate, particularly from the point of view of unemployment.
  I begin by referring to the Queen's Speech. It says:
  " My Government's main objectives are the speediest possible return to full employment "
  and with that in mind, I thought that I would look through the Queen's Speeches that the Government have introduced since March 1974.
  In the first Queen's Speech of March 1974 there was no reference to unemployment, and at that time unemployment was 618,000. It is true that as the summer went on unemployment started to grow and it grew sufficiently for the
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  right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Foot) to say in July 1974:
  " I am not prepared to sit in this place "
  which is St. James's Square—
  " and preside over mass unemployment."
  That was the view of the right hon. Gentleman when unemployment was 600,000.
  In October 1974, just after the General Election, we find the first mention of unemployment in the Queen's Speech. The Government were concerned with maintaining employment when 640,000 people were out of work. At the time of that election the right hon. Member for Huyton (Sir H. Wilson) had accused my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) and myself of wishing to create unemployment. On the very eve of the election the then Prime Minister went so far as to say:
  " Unemployment represents the difference between our two parties."
  One can say that again and again and again because it does represent the difference between our two parties.
  I come to the Queen's Speech of November 1975, a year later. It said :
  " In particular, success in these measures is required for the achievement of a satisfactory level of productive investment and to assist in the reduction of the present unacceptable level of unemployment."
  We should note the word "unacceptable ". By this time unemployment had reached 1,147,000. That was regarded as "unacceptable ".
  We move on to the Queen's Speech of November 1976, a year later, and we find that unemployment, which was unacceptably high at 1,147,000, had become 1,377,000. Here the Government firmly committed themselves to a lasting reduction in the level of unemployment at a time when unemployment had gone up by some 200,000 since the year before. While the Government were saying that, the Secretary of State for Employment was saying:
  " I do not want to raise false hopes, but if we can maintain this pace Britain is on its way."
  It was on its way to a figure this year not down, but up to 1,518,000 unemployed. That is the record of the Government over the last three and a half years. So never let anyone again say that Labour Governments do other than increase the number of unemployed in Britain.
  One of the great worries, perhaps exemplified by the attendance in the House today, is that the capacity to shock comes at much higher levels of unemployment. than a few years ago. I believe it was John Hughes, the Principal of Ruskin College. who recently said :
  " It is to be hoped that the facts on unemployment among young people still have the capacity to shock."
  I hope that the figures of unemployment in society generally, but particularly among young people, will have the capacity to shock the House today and to shock the country into doing something about it. The complacency of Government Members and of Ministers on the subject of unemployment is nauseating.
  The facts of unemployment are simply these. In two years the absolute numbers of young people unemployed for over three months rose over four times, for over six months rose six times, and for over 12 months rose five times. It is no good Government hon. Members pointing fingers at us and accusing us—they are the Government. What attitude would they be taking to figures at this level if they were the Opposition now and we were the Government?
  It is no good hon. Gentlemen going round the Tea Rooms, or anywhere else, saying that unemployment is not the political issue that it was a few years ago. They know that every unemployed person, and every unemployed young person, is a threat to society in the future. The Government of the day and Parliament have a duty to do something about it.
  We face a figure of 1·5 million unemployed, which most people regret and think is more likely to go up than down. It is not just cyclical in its nature but probably structural, too. The result is that young unskilled people particularly are unable to get jobs.
  We face that at a time of an unsatisfactory economic situation throughout the world. Heaven alone knows where we would be in Britain now if it were not for the promise of North Sea oil. Nothing else has supported the economy in the last year. It is against that background that we must discuss our difficulties today.
  If productivity had risen in the last two years at the same rate as it rose in the recession in 1970–72 and in the
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  earlier recession of 1961–63—at 1·8 per cent. a year, which is not a high rate of increase in productivity—an additional 1·25 million people would have been unemployed today. In reality, therefore, it is only because our productivity and our competitive position have deteriorated so much in the last three years that we do not have much higher unemployment than is shown today.
  I remember Labour Members castigating us for the "13 wasted years ". My goodness, the last three and a half years have not just been wasted—they are shameful years in the history of this country.
  Mr. Eric S. Heffer: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that many of us would be much more inclined to listen seriously to his argument if the Opposition had not argued with the Treasury Bench that the cuts in public expenditure should be even greater than they were? Of course, the Treasury Bench argued that they were having to carry out those cuts in order to deal with the economic problem. At the same time, the Opposition criticised every move the Government made to sustain British Leyland, Chrysler and many other industries, without which there would have been further mass unemployment. Is it not typical hypocrisy on the right hon. Gentleman's part to attack my right hon. Friends for a crisis which we inherited and which we are trying to deal with as seriously as we can?
  The Deputy Speaker(Sir Myer Galpern): Order. There is a long list of hon. Members who wish to take part in the debate. I appeal to hon. Members to make interventions as brief as is reasonably possible.
  Mr. Prior: It is the belief of every hon. Member on this side of the House, and, I suspect, of the majority of people in the country, that had the Government taken steps to control public expenditure at the time we were demanding it and not some two or three years later, a lot of the worst effects of unemployment could have been avoided. Secondly, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heifer) and his hon. Friends should recognise that by saving jobs in one direction there is always a loss of jobs in another.

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  The latest OECD reports show that saving 10 jobs by Government action in one direction has always led to the loss of six jobs elsewhere. One does not necessarily save jobs in the best way by the means that the hon. Member for Walton suggested. In the last three years, we have priced ourselves out of jobs, become less and less competitive, and we are now in the position that we cannot even supply our own market whether with motor cars or coal.
  Far from returning to the position of the autumn and winter of 1973, the country is in a far worse competitive position than it was at that time. Furthermore, we in Britain shall start the next stage of recession with an economy that is much more inflated, with a level of unemployment that is far higher and with the world economy in a far worse condition.
  Let me say to members of the Government that everyone recognises the need for keeping to reasonable increases in wages in order to avoid further increases in unemployment. It is remarkable that, when wages were going up 10, 20, 30 and 40 per cent. in the summer of 1974 and right through until July 1975, there was little talk then about the effect that that would have on unemployment. However, we are now told that, if wages go up by more than 10 per cent., unemployment will increase. Presumably, what happened in 1974 and 1975 has a bearing on the unemployment figures now.
  Are hon. Members opposite—particularly members of the Government—satisfied that the level of settlements is really what the Government tell us that it is? What is the true level of wage settlements now being reached in British industry? Where are those copper-bottomed productivity deals about which we hear so much? All the information reaching me and, I dare say, hon. Members on the Back Benches is that the deals are not proper productivity deals at all but ways by which the Government have been able to exonerate themselves from having to take further action.
  I hope, therefore, that we shall learn this afternoon how the wage policy is operating and how the Government intend to ensure that, if there are productivity deals, they are genuine. The view of industry at the moment is that they are not genuine productivity deals.
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  We turn, then, to the constructive side of the problem. We accept the need for the measures outlined for young people in the Holland Report. We believe that the use of public funds to finance more constructive work than paid idleness must be right. But we have certain reservations. We have them because the Government were very slow off the mark and because their programme was one of essentially short-term measures which are now being rolled forward with, we believe, a lot of waste at the start. Certainly the idea of a union rate for the job was disastrous in the costs it imposed on the original scheme.
  I hope that the schemes now being prepared and about which there has been much controversy in the last few days can be brought down to a level that allows young people to help administer them. That is extremely important.
  I put this argument to the House. One of the difficulties about devolving the schemes a long way down is that the accountability of funds to the House is made much more difficult. One of the great increases in bureaucracy in the Manpower Services Commission and throughout the Government service has come about through trying to control accountability. I suggest to my right hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann), who is Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, that the House ought now to see whether there are not better ways of having accountability which do not involve the degree of bureaucracy and centralisation or regionalisation which has to take place at present.
  If these schemes are to work properly —the same can be said for many other branches of government—we need to get the effort put right down to the grass roots where people can use the money for themselves and take full advantage of it. I believe that it is accountability that is resulting in the Manpower Services Commission having to set up this rather bureaucratic organisation.
  Secondly, on the constructive side we believe that, within the funds available for job creation, a general subsidy for employment in enterprises for the handicapped and disadvantaged is a much better way than making them depend totally on welfare payments. We are not

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  happy about what is happening in unemployment amongst the handicapped and disadvantaged. We believe that there ought to be special subsidies available out of the job creation programme for industries prepared to employ them.
  Thirdly, we think that there should be a review of the aid given to regional development. The policies of the last few years have very much favoured the big, prestigious technologies to the detriment of small, adaptive technologies with more people employed. This is well borne out by a report of the Cleveland County Council which was published a short time ago and which stated that Cleveland had attracted perhaps the highest development grant in the country.
  The report shows that in 1975–76 Cleveland attracted £48 million in Regional Development Grant. It concludes:
  " We have seen that Cleveland has attracted very high levels of Regional Development Grant but this is a mixed blessing;…the main recipient industries have not created employment."
  I believe that there is now a strong case for a much different attitude towards companies which are obtaining grants in the development areas. I am sure that we can save a lot of money here—and that is important enough—but we can also ensure that the money is far better spent than at present.
  We must be much more positive in taking speedy action to prevent dumping wherever dumping goes on. This country has always been too slow in stopping others exporting their unemployment to us. I am not for one moment suggesting protection, because I think that we should lose far more as a result of protectionist policies, but if anyone talks to any industrialist about what Japan is doing at the moment, he will see that there is no doubt that the British Government ought to be much quicker in taking action.
  During the Summer Recess I was in the United States. I have seen the difficulties that its steel industry is in. It has had considerable redundancies—12,000 in and around Philadelphia at the time I was there. But I noticed that it was very quick off the mark in stopping British steel going into the United States on the
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  ground that it was being dumped there at lower than the cost of production. I remember thinking to myself that if only we were as quick at stopping others dumping here, that would certainly help many of our industries.
  Mr. Heffer: The right hon. Gentleman should apply to join the Tribune Group.
  Mr. Prior: If the hon. Gentleman is asking for protectionism, the answer is "No ". But if he is asking for his Government to stop dumping, he had better come and join us.
  Next, educationists must be made to realise—this will not be popular—that they have a responsibility for the manner in which young people are prepared for employment. There must be greater cooperation between the last few years at school and the first few years after leaving school, or after the age of 16. We have to place obligations now on the education service to pay much more attention to this matter than it has in the past. We cannot go on with a situation in which so many young people over the next few years will be ill trained to get a job.
  Mrs. Elaine Kellett-Bowman: Has my right hon. Friend noticed the interesting difference between the number of permanent jobs obtained by youngsters who do extra training actually in industry under the Training Services Agency rather than through colleges of further education? The employment take-up in the former case is often 100 per cent. and in the latter it is often only up to 70 per cent.
  Mr. Prior: My hon. Friend raises an interesting point. I should like to follow that on the whole question of training. I was about to say on the question of training that there is no doubt that a lot of our training is being totally wasted at the moment. In the book "MSC Review and Plan 1977 ", which was published yesterday, there is a discussion on the success of the Training Opportunities Scheme. Paragraph 4·32 tells us:
  "… the number of people completing courses has risen from 15,600 in 1971 to 89,700… in 1976."
  But then in a further paragraph one reads that only 1,400 of those 90,000 were given technician training courses. So the presumption is that the vast

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  majority of the courses were courses for typing or shorthand, or courses of far less relevance to the real needs of Britain in the next few years. I do not think that it is any good training just for the sake of training, particularly under the TOPS scheme, unless we are putting it to proper use.
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: We had an announcement only today from the Government that they are to train recruits who will receive wages and salaries which the existing firemen—who are dissatisfied with their present wage, and we all know the rest of the story—say is insufficient. Is it not ridiculous to think that they will get recruits coming into the Fire Service when the wage is way below the national average wage?
  Mr. Prior: Let me follow what the hon. Gentleman says by pointing out that there are a lot of skilled people in Britain at the moment but a great many skilled people have chosen to do unskilled jobs. They may choose to do unskilled jobs because of the problem of differentials. The whole question of differentials and their restoration has made it not worth while doing a skilled job. Secondly, they may perhaps do an easier job, finish work at an easier time, and go off and do a bit of moonlighting elsewhere.
  Once again, there is no point in training vast numbers of people if they are not later on to be rewarded for the training they have undertaken. That is another matter which we have to put right.
  My next point concerns more help for small businesses. Hon. Members on the Government side have a lot to answer for here in the way that they introduced the Employment Protection Act. We warned them time and again, while the Bill was going through the House, that the Employment Protection Act might well be a measure which, introduced at the right time, would be satisfactory for employers and employees. But that, introduced at the psychologically wrong time, when unemployment was already rising rapidly, it would have totally the wrong effect.
  I do not know whether the figures of 30,000 or 100,000—which one hears bandied around as being the figures of jobs which could be taken up but which are not being taken up because small businesses are refusing to employ extra
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  people—are correct. But I do know that every small business man in the country believes that the Employment Protection Act is now an Act stopping him from taking on additional labour because he does not know what the future holds. I know that the Government are now carrying out a survey into the effects of the Employment Protection Act, but they ought to realise the psychological damage that that Act has done to the employment of additional people.
  What is important? Is it important now that we should preserve the jobs of those who are in employment, or is it important that we create additional jobs? I am certain that, over the next few years. it is to the small businesses that we shall have to look if we are to get unemployment down to the levels that we all wish to see.
  It is not good enough for hon. Gentlemen to sit on the Back Benches and jeer when one talks about the problems that the Employment Protection Act is creating. They must know from personal experience the views of small business men and the attitudes that they are adopting. Hon. Gentlemen opposite have to show whether they are more interested in keeping on the statute book an Act which affects small businesses and is believed to reduce employment or in getting unemployment down to the levels that we wish to see it reach.
  I turn now to tax incentives. I have already mentioned the many people who do not think it now worth training or doing a skilled job because of the lack of differentials, but I also believe that there are a great many people who, if tax was very much reduced, would be content to do just one job and not go off moonlighting every night. If we got tax reduced dramatically, not only would that have a remarkable effect on the economy as a whole, but it might lead to people being more content to take just one job, so that there would be many other jobs available for others to do. Therefore, I believe that reductions in taxe are probably one of—
  Mr. Thomas Swain: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
  Mr. Prior: No, I will not. I have already given way a great deal. I am

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  trying to obey Mr. Deputy Speaker's instructions.
  It would be far better if we could get taxation down so that there was a real incentive to work.
  I point out also that in the MSC book to which I have already referred there is a figure which shows that for the first six months of unemployment the cost to the Government is greater than the cost of a person at work. That is no way to solve our problems. We have to make a difference, a gap, between what people can earn if they are doing a job and what they receive when unemployed.
  It is not much good the Government's talking about putting £900 million into job creation, temporary employment subsidies and all the other things they have done if at the same time they put an extra 2 per cent. on the national insurance contribution for employers. The one adds up to the other. All that happens is that if they take that amount of money out of employers' pockets there is that much less money to provide jobs in the private sector. Let us face it. That is where the jobs must come from—the private sector, not the public sector.
  We have to create a climate of confidence. One of the first things we have to do is stop constantly saying that improvements in unemployment figures are just round the corner, that we are on our way, that the situation will get better. It would have been more truthful if the Government had admitted the real seriousness of the problem three years ago and had started then to do something about it.
  We have had so many false dawns, so much faded optimism, that it would be better to admit that there is a long hard struggle ahead. We have to create a climate and a feeling of confidence in which industry is prepared to expand and invest. I say to hon. Members, particularly to members of the Tribune Group, that when Mr. Kitson goes to Moscow and makes the sort of statements that he made, he does irreparable damage to future employment prospects in Britain.
  Mr. Swain: What about the Leader of the Opposition in America?
  Mr. Prior: Mr. Kitson is an extreme Left-winger, anyhow Anything that
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  detracts from people having confidence in us is damaging to employment in Britain.
  When I was in Washington one of the things I had repeated to me time and time again was that Ministers—and not only Ministers—had gone to Washington and told Government officials and Congressmen that if a Conservative Government were elected there would be industrial chaos in Britain. Some hon. Members do not mind about running the country down. I dare say that if the hon. Gentleman went now he would get a different reception from that of a few months ago.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. John Grant): I do not know where the right hon. Gentleman got his information about Ministers going over and saying such things. What were much more important were the remarks of the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition in New York and whether they were calculated to inspire confidence in this country.
  Mr. Prior: My right hon. Friends remarks were absolutely to the point and stressed the need for support of the free enterprise and private enterprise system in Britain. That is what hon. Members opposite have to do as well. They may not like the private enterprise system, but there will not be jobs unless they support it. The sooner they get that message, the better.
  When the Prime Minister and his right hon. Friends ask for our support, as they did earlier this afternoon, I wonder what the atmosphere would have been like if the roles had been reversed—if a Conservative Home Secretary were standing at the Dispatch Box talking about the Fire Service in the way the Home Secretary did this afternoon. Have they ever thought—do their consciences prick them —about the attitude they took when we were in Government? If they had had a bit more sense and a bit more responsibility then, we might not have had the four wasted shameful years that we have experienced since then.
  When the Prime Minister calls for a national effort and for everyone in the country to stand firm with the Government—[Interruption.] Let us all stand firm with the Government, but let the

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  Government, first of all, show that they deserve the confidence of the House and of the country. They have done nothing yet to deserve it.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: May I ask, does the right hon. Gentleman wish to move the amendment?
  Mr. Prior: You, Mr. Deputy Speaker, were not in the Chair at the time. I moved it at the beginning of my speech.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman. I was given to understand just a few moments ago that it had not been moved. I was just inquiring.
  4.56 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Albert Booth): The improvement in our country's financial position that has become apparent this year will not automatically solve our massive unemployment problem, but it will provide us with the greatly needed scope for action. Without the improvement that would have been denied us.
  While many factors combine to create the current appalling level of unemployment and— some of these are international—the Government can take a number of steps to reduce unemployment. That should be the prime aim of our economic policy. Working in the difficult setting of the world's worst recession since the 1930s we must, if we are soundly to base a major reduction in unemployment, raise the general level of efficiency of British industry to the level of its best parts. We should recognise that there are many parts of British industry which are good and competitive even in the present tough world conditions.
  I believe that this is crucial for us as a trading nation, competing as we are with the efficient industries of the United States, Japan and West Germany. What is more, we must do it without refuelling inflation. The methods by which we choose to do it will have to take into account the fact that the size of this country's labour force is currently increasing by about 140,000 a year. It will continue to do so for some years.
  The growth of our labour force is such that we shall require about 1,400,000 extra jobs by 198] in order to bring
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  down unemployment by 600,000. That means—it is no use blinking the fact—that unemployment will not come down as quickly as we had once hoped, although in many ways the prospects have improved. The benefits of North Sea oil are beginning to flow. The pound is strong. The inflation rate is coming down. This has made it possible to start stimulating the economy, and we must continue to do that in a responsible way.
  We have chosen an industrial strategy as our principal means of raising the efficiency of British industry. The National Economic Development Council is working out detailed plans at industrial level in full partnership with employers and unions concerned. We are doing all we can through what is probably the most generous system of financial support for investment in the Western world. When the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) seeks to condemn us for failing to create confidence in industry, he takes little account of the fact that the Government have shown confidence in the organised workers of this country, in the employers and the managers, by determining to back the assessment that those managers and trade unions have made of the ability of their industries to expand in the tough world conditions that now exist. That is the very point that lies behind the support that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry and I have given to the sector working party reports that have been produced under this industrial strategy. They have the confidence of a Government behind them, which few other industries anywhere in the world can claim.
  I am often told that since the aim of investment must be higher productivity, this can only lead to higher and not lower levels of unemployment. I do not subscribe to this view. If industry is to be more competitive, the demand for its products will grow and that in itself will create employment—not necessarily employment within that industry.
  It may be that the industries which become more capital-intensive and productive will be able to produce much more without increasing, and possibly by reducing, their own labour forces. But what they will do in many cases is to provide additional work for people who

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  supply these industries with raw materials and distribute the products. Also, without a shadow of a doubt they will increase the amount of work in construction, plant and buildings which they will require more and more.
  Mr. Tom Litterick (Birmingham, Selly Oak): The point that the Secretary of State is making is crucially important. I want to believe him, but I am afraid that I have some doubts and misgivings about the future. Can he give us an assurance that some work has been done on this, that there is a model, or at least a good reason for believing it, and that it is not just the personal opinion of the Secretary of State? Can he assure us that the results of a given quota of investment in industry will be positive in terms of employment?
  Mr. Booth: We have no model to fit every industry. We have studied this very carefully, and I shall give one example of what we have found by study. Looking at the chemical industry, where there is considerable investment, we have found that there is one major firm in which investment amounting to £1 million per working day has taken place. That industry is slightly increasing its work force but it is undoubtedly creating much more work in the construction and plant industries. [An HON. MEMBER : "That is only temporary."] Certainly it is temporary in this case, but if one looks at a major oil refinery, for example, or a large volume plant in the chemical industry, one sees that it is obvious that the ratio of construction to operating work is very high indeed. Therefore, we could find that there are a number of industries in which the total amount of employment is dependent to a considerable degree on the level of investment and the rate at which plant is being replaced.
  The wealth created by these capital-intensive industries is itself necessary in order to enable us to bring about an effective demand for services in this country. It may be that the toughest political question that we shall have to face in our lifetime is how we are to distribute the wealth that has been created in a way which provides a demand for services. But that question will be hypothetical if we do not create the wealth.
  Dr. Jeremy Bray: I hope that the Secretary of State will give a lot more thought to this question and to what he said when my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Mr. Litterick) drew attention to the fact that investment does not increase employment overall. In the long term—this was a point made by the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior)—this is the major problem, which the Government have not fully penetrated. I hope that the Secretary of State will look carefully at the mechanism for transferring from manufacturing to service industries, and particularly the implications of that for public expenditure.
  Mr. Booth: I can give the assurance that my hon. Friend seeks, that we shall give a lot more thought to this matter. We have given it a lot of thought already.
  The time scale is important. In the next three, four or five years there is no doubt that we shall need to increase the output of manufacturing industry. Simultaneously, we must examine the implications of becoming more capital-intensive and the way to fund services in order to provide jobs. We must also examine ways in which privately provided services also can grow in order to absorb some of the wealth created by these industries. In that lies part of the solution to the unemployment problem.
  In the meantime, we must devise numerous schemes for the relief of unemployment. It is no good saying that such schemes do not have a part to play. We know that they are extremely good value for money and that they are more labour-intensive than anything else we have in this country. Jobs have been saved by the temporary employment subsidy and the small firms employment subsidy.
  If the right hon. Member for Lowestoft wants to examine a case of Government aid to small firms, he should talk to those small business men that I talked to in Cumbria a few Saturdays ago who have had the chance to expand as a result of help being given by this Government. There is also the youth employment subsidy and the job release scheme. I believe that the Manpower Services Commission, helped by the careers service, working with us on the work experience programme, has made an important contribution to the development of a series

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  of means of tackling the depth of the present recession.
  Between them these schemes have already helped 300,000 people a year—people who otherwise would have been unemployed. Currently we are putting more than £400 million a year into running these schemes.
  In a situation in which expansion of demand can proceed only slowly these schemes have an invaluable rôle to play. They are quick-acting and cheap in terms of jobs produced per pound spent. It should be remembered that we have been ready to experiment with anything offering a hope of reducing unemployment in this way, during a time when severe constraints have been imposed on public expenditure.
  In December last year many Departments' budgets were restricted. Notwithstanding that fact, the budgets of the Department of Industry and my Department were increased at a time when it was accepted by most Ministers that they would have a curtailment in their Department's expenditure. That change was a recognition of the fact that the Government are giving major priority to solving problems of unemployment.
  I have already announced that the Manpower Services Commission will introduce a youth opportunities programme in which 230,000 young people will be helped, in the first full year into training and work experience that is structured to their needs over the next four or five years. The Commission will be running a complementary programme to provide jobs for 25,000 adults. The arrangements are being worked out for implementing the programme.
  There have been very misleading reports in the Press recently to the effect that there have been differences of opinion between Ministers and the Commission about the arrangements. There have been allegations—I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Lowestoft appeared to support them—that the programmes will be run by civil servants and that those concerned with the problems of youth unemployment, as well as those in a position to help in a practical way, will not be involved. None of this is true.
  Mr. Prior Mr. Prior indicated dissent.
  Mr. Booth: Perhaps I have done the right hon. Gentleman an injustice. I had
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  taken his remarks as a criticism that too many civil servants would be involved. If he did not imply that, I am only too pleased to hear it. None of the allegations that have appeared in the Press over the last week is true. The detailed arrangements have not yet been decided.
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science and I have been discussing them fully with the Manpower Services Commission, and I can assure the House that there is no quarrel between us and the Commission. Far from the programme being run by bureaucrats, it will, if the proposals of the Commission are accepted by the Government, be administered by a network of area boards, comprising representatives of employers, trade unions, local authorities and voluntary organisations. These will all be represented on the boards. This proposal, incidentally, was included in the consultative document which was circulated by the Commission, so that there is little excuse for misrepresentation.
  Mr. Esmond Bulmer(Kidderminster): Before the Secretary of State leaves the subject of the Commission, will he say how long it will be before it receives worthwhile employment prospects from the sector working parties?
  Mr. Booth: I cannot give a direct answer to that question. I can say that to some extent the Commission already takes cognisance of the fact that many of the sector working party reports and the proposals contained in them are already being backed by my own Department, and more especially by the Department of Industry, which has used discretionary power to support industry in a way which underpins the plans of the sector working parties.
  Mr. Anthony Steen: The Secretary of State was saying, in regard to the composition of the boards, that the people who are on the job creation action committees will also be on the area boards. Will he insist that some young people are put on these area boards?
  Mr. Booth: I was not yet proposing to leave this aspect of the Commission's activities, and I assure the hon. Gentleman that I shall answer him on this point. I believe that these area boards will have to work in very close co-operation

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  with the careers services. In the discussion that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science and I had with the Commission the other day, we discussed a proposition that would ensure that the careers services are represented at all meetings of boards. The boards will be under instructions to allocate money, with which they will be provided, to areas, in proportion to the size of local youth unemployment. There will be no discretion in the hands of the boards on that point; therefore there can be no question of any area getting less than its fair share as judged by the extent of that area's youth unemployment problems. There will be flexible arrangements for representation of local authorities on the boards. I believe that this is also of some concern to the House.
  The number of civil servants involved in the programme will be limited to those required to service the boards and their liaison with other committees. At this stage I am not certain about the total number of civil servants involved. It depends partly on the number of boards. There may well be between 600 and 800 involved in the whole of the scheme, but these will be very largely people who are already involved in job creation and work experience administration.
  A most significant increase in employment, as a result of the youth opportunities programme, will arise from our proposal for the special temporary employment programme to provide jobs for 8,000 unemployed men and women as supervisors and instructors working within the youth opportunities programme. If anyone chooses to regard them as temporary civil servants, we shall have an increase in the Civil Service. I do not regard them as such, but as people who can use skills and talents, which would otherwise be wasted, in the interests of providing unemployed young people in this country with opportunities and chances of getting employment which could not be brought about in any other way.
  Mr. Ian Lloyd: In dealing with the Manpower Services Commission, the Secretary of State said that he regards the expenditure as highly efficient, in that a large number of jobs will be created by a comparatively
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  small expenditure of money. I have the latest report of the Commission. Surprisingly, it was not available to the House this afternoon and had to be specially sent for. None the less, the figure given here for the estimated Commission expenditure for the year 1977–78 is a total of £580 million. The figure for the management of the Commission alone is about £45 million. These are very large sums, and I should like the assurance that very considerable employment is being created by this expenditure.
  Mr. Booth: When I was talking about efficient expenditure and good value for money I was referring to the money expended on the special employment measures. The figure that the hon. Gentleman is quoting, if I understand his point correctly, is the total expenditure on administration of the Commission, and that goes very much wider than the special employment measures. The administrative expenditure of the Commission now covers the whole cost of running the Training Services Agency and the Employment Services Agency—in other words, a very large part of what previously would have been held to be the administrative costs of the Department of Employment.
  I return to the question of the way in which the youth opportunities programme will be run. This is the problem on which we are now working. Below the level of the boards, the Manpower Services Commission will be stimulating the formation of a whole series of local committees. There will be many of these in each board area. These local committees will be necessary to provide a forum and an arena in which many people who have a contribution to make and a part to play can take part. Many people must be concerned with this if it is to be successful. Employers are essential for providing industry-based work experience, and local authorities for providing some of the project-based work experience which is an essential part of the programme. Both of these efforts are being made in cooperation with the trade unions. The organisations concerned include those of young people. In the committees we shall want to see young people with ideas that we can adopt. We also need representatives of educational bodies such as colleges of further education, which have an essential contribution to make. I also

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  believe that local education authority careers services have an essential contribution to make.
  The question posed by the right hon. Member for Lowestoft is a very fair one. How do we ensure accountability for the money which is to be spent on the youth opportunities programme without involving some great bureaucracy? I think that the ideas on which we are now working provide a large part of the answer to this question. The area boards that will be responsible for approving the programmes—the powers will be devolved to them—will be comprised of people who are representative, in the truest sense, of the community in the board area. The people who will be responsible for putting up the project to them will be people who are representative of their own local communities. In other words, the people who are involved in the programme will themselves determine the accountability in the sense of how the programme is carried out. The amounts allocated, for which I shall be answerable to this House will be in direct proportion to the youth unemployment problems of the particular areas.
  Mr. Prior: May I say what I was trying to get across to the House? Because of the need to account for every single penny, there is always a tendency to set up a bureaucracy. In a number of countries this is not done. If anything goes wrong here, the Minister is accountable for it. I believe that the more these schemes are devolved to the people who are really affected by them the better the schemes will be. On the other hand, I accept that there will be greater dangers of something going wrong. I think that a number of things will go wrong. There might even be the odd scandal or two. But we have to get this into perspective, and I do not think that we do this in the House of Commons. That is what worries me very much about all these schemes. That is the point I was trying to make. That is why I think that Richard O'Brien, for whom I have the greatest respect, feels that he is tied somewhat in having to have a bureaucratic set-up—I do not say that it is all that bureaucratic, but there is a degree of bureaucracy—in order to avoid the kind of thing to which I have referred.
  Mr. Booth: I do not know that Richard O'Brien would use exactly those
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  words, but if he has implied that there is any bureaucracy, he may have in mind the way in which he has to run the Training Services Agency and the Employment Services Agency. I do not think that anyone could claim that work experience, job creation and similar projects have a bureaucratic administration. If anything, we have gambled with some of them. I regret that some of them have failed, but 90 per cent. of them have been successful, and it is on that ground that I defend the programme before the House.
  Mr. Timothy Raison: am worried about the nature of the jobs involved. I am not talking of scandals, freaks and abuses, which will always crop up. The bulk of the work involved is low priority such as environmental schemes. Those are useful schemes but, at the same time, essential services—for example, at the Stoke Mandeville Hospital—have had to be cut. Is there a way of ensuring that the work is directed towards essential services rather than merely desirable or optional services?
  Mr. Booth: There are differences between the job creation scheme and the youth opportunities programme. For example, in the youth opportunities programme each project must provide the means of training young people in work skills. They must, therefore, be projects producing something that is worth while. That is why it is a more challenging concept than the job creation programme.
  I cannot emphasise too much how impressed I am with the trend of these developments. I have been impressed by the people to whom I have spoken, who are working at area levels to create circumstances that are right for the youth opportunities programme. They are people who are determined to make a success of the programme. I am always ready to listen to their criticisms and suggestions. However, I deplore the ill-informed criticism based upon half knowledge that has been purveyed by some sections of the Press in the past week. This does not help to reduce the number of unemployed young people, which is the real problem.
  Mr. Ron Thomas: My right hon. Friend is spending a lot of time on the mechanics of this scheme. Can he answer a straightforward

  711
  question? How many youngsters left school to join the dole queues because of cuts in public expenditure?
  Mr. Booth: I have spent a lot of time on the mechanics of the scheme and on answering hon. Members' questions. I cannot give a precise estimate of how many youngsters left school to join the dole queues. That is because in many cases cuts in public expenditure were made in such a way as to protect those employed in the public sector. These protections created other difficulties.
  I return to my main theme. In the Manpower Services Commission and its two agencies we have an efficient body not only for helping us with the problems of present-day unemployment but for paving the way to ensuring that we have adequate supplies of trained labour which we shall need for expansion in the future as we move out of the recession.
  We have broadly mentioned the intake of apprentices into industry. It is a unique achievement in a recession, because in some cases we have not only retained the level but increased it. For example, in the engineering and foundry industries there are now more young people entering apprenticeships than there were in 1972–73. The number of apprentices in the engineering industry was fewer than 17,000 in 1972–73. In 1976–77 the number rose to 25,000. The House should realise that 20 per cent. of those recruited in 1976–77 were recruited with the aid of premium grants and training awards that were paid for by the taxpayers through the industrial training boards. The ability to sustain and increase the intake of young people depends upon policies that must be determined by the House.
  The right hon. Member for Lowestoft will agree that a decision to expand a work force or to build a new factory is determined to a consideable extent by the availability of skilled manpower in the area where the factory is sited or to be built. It is, therefore, important that we act now to provide training opportunities for young people who are leaving school in increasing numbers. It is also necessary to ensure that we have an adequate skilled labour force in the early 1980s.
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  There is no current general skill shortage problem. In a few areas there is a shortage of new craftsmen to replace those who retire or leave an industry, but this is the result of the reduction in the number trained in 1972–73. In a recession we must be more careful about this. There is a natural and understandable tendency for those running industry to cut down their training intake when they are up against cash flow problems.
  We have been working out proposals with the Manpower Services Commission and industrial training boards to ensure that there is an adequate supply of skilled labour in the long term to meet the needs of our essential industries and services. We have been working out how Government support for training can be deployed to ensure that the long-term needs for training are met.
  Mr. Jim Craigen: Has my right hon. Friend come across any evidence, as I have, that some employers are discriminating against youngsters and prefer to recruit older workers?.
  Mr. Booth: I have some evidence to that effect. It is part of a wider problem that effects young people who are not involved in apprenticeships. Leaving aside the apprenticeship question, employers do ask potential applicants about their previous experience and acquired skills. Those questions will militate against the young job applicant and favour the older. That is yet another reason why we must he careful when working out the scope of the youth opportunities programme. If we are not careful we may create I million new jobs without having an impact on youth unemployment.
  Mrs. Kellett-Bowman: Does the Secretary of State agree that we have to some extent exacerbated the problem of youth unemployment by raising the school leaving age, because the gap between leaving school and the expectation of full pay has narrowed?
  Mr. Booth: The raising of the school leaving age has two effects upon unemployment. First, it results in young people expecting higher pay from their first jobs. Secondly, young people arc probably better educated and many have the qualifications that employers are

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  seeking. The overall effect of the raising of the school leaving age has been helpful to employment. For two years young people who might otherwise have been unemployed were taken out of the labour market.
  Proposals to deal with how Government support can meet the long-term needs of industry are shortly to be discussed between myself and other Ministers. I hope to be able to make a statement to the House before Christmas.
  Mr. Wyn Roberts: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman; he has been very kind in giving way. In these discussions with other Ministers will he pay particular attention to the position of newly-qualified teachers who cannot get jobs and who cannot get grants for retraining unless they have had a job and been declared redundant?
  Mr. Booth: I shall certainly bear that in mind. Indeed, it is a subject that I am discussing with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science in another context.
  I have already announced to the House 1,500 extra places for community industry which, with its new, closer relationship with the MSC, will play its part as one element of manpower policy. About 1,100 of these places have been allocated to 27 of the 42 existing community industry units. Prominent among them are units serving inner city areas.
  I must tell the House that although the scheme had employed about 4,500 youngsters by mid-October, and should be providing 5,000 places by the end of the year, I do not see it as a recession measure. There is a lot of evidence now that the special service that community industry can provide to meet a particular problem of a minority group of young people may well be one that we shall need on a longer-term basis. I hope the House will agree that we have been right to give priority to the development of the manpower programme. We may have differences about the relative values of various programmes, but I hope that the House will back the priority for the manpower programme.
  Employment levels are not determined by Government measures alone. Many policies are being developed and many decisions are being taken in industry by
  714
  boards of management and in collective bargaining which bear upon the level of employment. The working out of schemes for early retirement is one example, and the decision whether to move from a single shift to a two-shift system, or even to continuous working, is another example of decisions which have a considerable bearing on the level of employment. There is also the decision whether to work overtime, sometimes on a massive scale. That, too, has a considerable bearing on the level of employment. A recent count made by my Department of overtime working in a single week in manufacturing industry alone showed that 16 million hours of overtime were worked.
  I do not suppose that it would be possible to reorganise those industries to share out the whole of the 16 million hours into full-time work, but I suggest that it is not beyond the ingenuity of management and unions to reflect some of it in a higher level of employment.
  Mr. George Rodgers: Does my right hon. Friend accept that overtime has often become institutionalised as a consequence of poor basic rates of pay? Does he recognise that people are often trapped in the present circumstances of the Pay Code, and that there is very little that can be achieved in that direction?
  Mr. Booth: I accept the point that pressures of low pay and the strict limitations of two years of pay policy have added to the pressures to work overtime in many cases. I also take the point that it tends to become institutionalised. That is another reason why we should take a careful look at the effect on total levels of employment and unemployment.
  Dr. Bray: Perhaps there is a danger of getting the overtime problem out of scale. On a rough, quick calculation, it seems to me that 16 million hours of overtime must have been about 1 per cent. of the total time worked.
  Mr. Booth: My hon. Friend is making the wrong division, which is untypical of most of his calculations, which are usually precise. The figure was for manufacturing industry's total work force alone. If one added overtime in the service industries there would be a very much higher figure.

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  As collective bargaining rights extend into manning policy, responsibility for determining these factors and the opportunity to determine them will move more into an area in which it is shared between management and representatives of the organised workers. I believe that the proper discharge of that responsibility now requires an appreciation of the complex long-term nature of the unemployment problem.
  Mr. David Mudd: The right hon. Gentleman shares my personal concern for the particular problem of unemployment in West Cornwall in what he has said and failed to say. Is he now saying that I can usefully tell the 12 per cent. who are unemployed in my constituency that by Christmas 1977, by Easter 1978, or by the early 1980s they can look forward to a sizeable reduction in the scourge of unemployment blighting West Cornwall?
  Mr. Booth: What I am saying is that the hon. Gentleman can go back not only to his constituency but to the whole South-West Region and say that the policies operating there have ensured that there are more jobs available in the region than when this Government took office, and that under the youth opportunities programme it should be possible to ensure that every youngster who leaves school in the area next year and does not find ordinary employment will get the chance to return either to full-time further education or to a place created by the job creation programme, which will give him work experience. I would like to give the hon. Gentleman further assurance he asks for, but it would be dishonest of me to do so at this stage. But I stand by the assurance that I have given.
  I claim that all of those who have a part to play in determining employment levels now have to appreciate, as the Government and the House must appreciate, that the level of employment is a long-term, serious and complex problem; that opportunities now exist for this country to expand—opportunities that we could not see as short a time ago as last November and December; that we are stimulating investment and running programmes which mean that 300,000
  716
  people a year who would otherwise be unemployed have work; that we are developing training for today's youth and for tomorow's industry and services; and that the youth opportunities programme offers that range of assurance that I have just indicated.
  I believe it inevitable and right that unemployment is and must be a matter of political controversy. It is also a problem so great that I believe that it behoves us all, as far as we can, sincerely to try to extend the area of agreement in which we can work together to provide the jobs and the benefits that can flow from them.
  5.38 p.m.
  Mr. David Steel: This has been, rightly, a serious debate. I welcome the approach of the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) to the subject, with his reference to the responsibility of Parliament as a whole. He put forward a number of quite attractive proposals about unemployment, which merit serious study. But I think that the debate would have been a great deal better without the unnecessary Conservative amendment to which it has been attached, and I think that the right hon. Gentleman was right to address himself scarcely at all to it. Nevertheless, it is on the Order Paper and I must address myself to it, at least, before I turn to the general question of unemployment.
  The amendment regrets
  " that the Gracious Speech contains no proposals for creating long-term business confidence …".
  One has to compare what is being said in the country now with what was being said by the Conservative Opposition in the "no confidence" debate of 23rd March. I looked up Hansard for that day, and I take three quotations from it. The first is from the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition, who said:
  " Unless there is a General Election following, we shall go into a period of very great uncertainty."
  Later, she said:
  " The fact is that this is a broken-backed Government.‖".
  The right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire (Mr. Pym) argued:
  " We are saying that the useful life of this Parliament is ended ".—[Official Report, 23rd March 1977; Vol. 928, c. 1285–393.]

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  That is what they were saying in March. I believe that all the facts since then have proved the Conservatives to be wrong. Moreover, in their more honest moments they accept that they were wrongUnterrirptioni—[Interruption]or perhaps in their more sober moments.
  Mr. Prior: Empty barrels make the most noise.
  Mr. Steel: In that case the right hon. Member for Lowestoft should shut up. The Conservatives, in accepting that there has been a turn round, seek to attribute the credit to the International Monetary Fund and North Sea oil. The fact is that the IMF had been around us for six months when those statements were made in March, and so had the predictions about the effects of North Sea oil on our economy. Both of those matters have been extremely important.
  Confidence has certainly improved since March. Measured by the Financial Times share index, it has gone up by 100 points. The pound has risen steadily month by month after months of decline. The balance of payments deficit has been turned into a satisfactory surplus. The reserves are up by £3 billion. The minimum lending rate has gone down from l0½ per cent. to 6 per cent. Mortgage interest rate has gone down from 12¼ per cent. to 9½ per cent. Today we have the news that the Price Commission index has gone down from the record figure of 20·9 per cent. in March to 7·3 per cent. in the last month. I believe that the success in reducing the rate of inflation has done more than anything else to lift confidence in Britain both at home and abroad. It is the view of myself and my colleagues that we are right to continue on that road and make it a high priority.
  I accept that against that background of success we have the horror of the unemployment figures, but I think that anyone who is honest will accept that unemployment, which is widespread and fairly general in the industrialised West, is likely to remain with us, sadly, until we get a general reflation in the industrial world, much of which is outside the control of any Government in this country, whether Labour or Conservative.
  718
  I welcome the proposals put forward by the Conservative Opposition this afternoon. I believe that it is absolutely right that, within the parliamentary framework, we should bend our minds to mitigating the worst effects of unemployment and looking at ways to reduce the overall international effects. I welcome what has been announced by the Government in the last few days to help the construction industry, although I should have liked them. A great deal more employment could be provided in the construction industry if we had a boost to the programme of home improvements of the kind that we had a few years ago.
  In particular, we could usefully combine this with conservation measures. If we could give a stimulus, for example, to home insulation, it would be of lasting benefit to the country in terms of the energy crisis and of reducing employment. I think that there is scope for going further than the Government have already gone in providing employment in the construction industry.
  I welcome what the Secretary of State said about unemployment among teachers. The right hon. Gentleman assured us that he was still talking to his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science. Since he indicated that publicly, and since we have been urging them to do more than talk, I find it almost incredible to use the job creation programme to pay teachers to sweep public parks rather than to get over the bureaucratic difficulties between the two Departments and pay them to complete their probationary year and therefore add to the quality of education.
  Mr. Booth: I think that the right hon. Gentleman would wish to present a fair picture to the House. We have done a little more than talk. We have agreed and put into practice the means whereby teachers who have been trained in specialisations for which there are no vacancies can be retrained in specialisations in which there are vacancies, and thereby obtain jobs.
  Mr. Steel: I accept that and welcome the steps that have been taken. I am urging that the talks to which the Secretary of State has referred should come

  719
  to fruition and that we should be able to use the job creation programme to help teachers who are waiting to do their probationary year but cannot do it because jobs are not available.
  Mr. Stephen Ross: Is my right hon. Friend aware that teachers who wish to retrain into other professions, such as secretarial courses, are having difficulty in obtaining grants from local authorities to enable them to do so? That is another problem that they face.
  Mr. Steel: That is the sort of issue that the two Secretaries of State must resolve.
  I turn now to the most serious aspect of unemployment, youth unemployment, which I regard as little short of a disaster at present. In our major cities as many as one in four of our 16- to 18-year olds are unemployed. The figure is more serious among the young coloured population. That is a very serious social factor, which the House should consider. Over recent years—not just in the last few months—unemployment has risen three times as fast among young people as among the population as a whole. One point on which I disagree with the Secretary of State is that, in parallel with these appalling figures of youth unemployment, there is growing evidence of a potential shortage of skilled labour. The right hon. Gentleman disagrees with that.
  There is considerable evidence in the NEDO report showing that the number of people entering training for skilled occupations has been falling and is not keeping pace with demand. In the two years 1972–73 and 1973–74 the total number of craft trainees, mainly apprentices, who started training fell to little more than half the number in 1967–71. I know that the figures have gone up since then, but the effect of that loss in these years means that the out-turn of apprentices coming out of their time in 1977 and 1978 will be barely sufficient to fill vacancies from promotion, let alone losses from other causes.
  There can be little doubt that when the economy begins to recover—if we accept the Chancellor of the Exchequer's optimism in the Budget—there will be a shortage of skilled men and women, and
  720
  these shortages will hold up economic recovery, as has happened in the past. There is a real danger that it could happen again. I do not think that it can be assumed that the recovery will open up opportunities for the unskilled. The evidence in this country and in the EEC makes it clear that the incidence of unemployment continues to rise as the level of skill in the population diminishes.
  I accept that many of the technical changes taking place in industry make it highly probable that there will never again be the number of jobs for the unskilled that there has been in the past. We face the prospect that the recession could pass and the recovery could come, leaving behind us an appalling residue of youngsters with no prospects of ever obtaining continuous employment. We already have too many unskilled youngsters who are in danger of becoming a legion of the lost unless we take action now. That is why I am concerned that, among school leavers, only about one-third of the boys and less than 10 per cent. of the girls receive skilled apprenticeships, and our figures for day release and part-time training show a steady fall.
  Since 1971 the figures for England and Wales show that the total number of students released for part-time training has fallen from 587,000 to 540,000. The shortfall in the number of young apprentices training to become skilled men can have dramatic effects. It is true that in future many shortages will arise from the absence of one skilled man. The absence of that man can prevent the employment of several lesser-skilled workers. For example, the lack of one machine-tool setter could prevent the employment of several machine-tool operatives.
  We are lagging sadly behind our partners in Europe. In West Germany all young people who are not proceeding to higher education are subject to statutory release for three years to attend a regulated course completed by an examination, which counts as a vocational qualification. More needs to be done than the plan that the Secretary of State announced to create the necessary skill centres and opportunities for people to go into more training.
  It is not just a question of leaving it all to the Government. A great deal could be done by industry throughout the

  721
  country working in collaboration with technical and further education colleges and putting up proposals for engaging four youngsters for every three or even two jobs and releasing them for compulsory further education and training for perhaps one and a half or two days a week.
  The Secretary of State knows that we have put to him a proposal for an all-party campaign on this matter and that we should try to persuade employers to take on more young people. I hope that we shall get that campaign launched and that the right hon. Member for Lowestoft will join us in our efforts. This is of crucial importance.
  I think that I have said enough about youth unemployment. There are two or three other matters that I should like to comment upon before I conclude.
  A great contribution can be made to the creation of new jobs by the small business and self-employed sector. We have talked about this often enough, and I wish to register with the Government my appreciation for the fact that they responded so quickly to our suggestion that there should be a cross-departmental review of this matter which affects not just one Government Department.
  The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster has acted speedily and has started to restore confidence in this important sector. The Queen's Speech foreshadows still further measures that we welcome. We have suffered a terrible decline in the number of small businesses and if we can encourage small and new businesses by looking at their problems in this global way, by every Department considering them, and by looking at the legislation and tax burdens that have acted as a disincentive, we can create employment.
  In terms of creating long-term confidence, it is right that there should be further shifts in the burden of taxation on income. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has made a welcome first step in this direction in his Budget and I hope that we shall see more in his next Budget in April.
  This is not the time to go into details on this point, but the introduction of profit-sharing incentives, which have again been foreshadowed in the Queen's Speech, could also be crucial in creating
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  a new spirit of harmony and partnership in industry that will lead, in the long run, to greater productivity and more employment.
  Returning to the terms of the amendment, I believe that a basic political change is needed if we are to restore business confidence in the long term. My argument is that we have succeeded in restoring short-term business confidence in the past six months, but that, in the long run, changes of a more fundamental nature are required.
  In our confidence debate in March, the Leader of the Opposition asked the Government by what right they governed. She referred to
  " the right of a supposed mandate based on 38 per cent. of the votes cast or 29 per cent. of the electorate? They goven by no right except the arrogant right of Socialism."
  There is no difference in the constitutional position of a Socialist Government elected by 29 per cent. of the electorate and a Conservative Government elected by 33 per cent. of the electorate. The right hon. Lady should follow through the logic of what she said and agree that changes to the electoral system are needed in order to ensure that we get a Government that is representative of the people.
  Winding up in that debate, the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire said:
  " Britain wants government which is inherently strong and responsive to the people's wishes."
  I agree. That is what we have at the moment, and in support of that view I cite last week's Gallup Poll, which showed that, for the first time, 50 per cent. of people believe that the Lib-Lab agreement is good for the country, as opposed to 35 per cent. who do not.
  In the long term, we need to change our electoral system. If I may be so immodest as to quote one sentence from my speech in the same debate, I said:
  " It is my belief that it is possible that people will get to like the taste of co-operation and want more."—[Official Report, 23rd March 1977; Vol. 928, cc. 1285–319.]
  The evidence is that I was right.
  Winding up last night's debate, the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Nott), in a witty and lengthy metaphor about the military posture of the Prime Minister, said:
  " If the Leader of the Liberal Party believes that he is holding back the hordes of advancing Socialism he misunderstands his rôle. To

  723
  the rest of us he is simply the caretaker engaged on a temporary basis by the Prime Minister to keep the barracks clean until the drunken rabble arrive back from their leave to plunder our liberty and prosperity—and every liberal principle—should they win the next election. That is how we see it."—[Official Report, 8th November 1977; Vol. 938, cc. 609–10.]
  That was rather good, but I do not see it in that way. I see our task as being to keep going the recovery on which we have embarked in the last six months by ensuring not only that the drunken rabble are kept at bay but that the barracks are not abandoned altogether to raids by the Tory mercenaries lurking round the corner, under the command of the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph), and waiting to demolish the entire edifice.
  I wish to place on the record my thanks to the Prime Minister for his recognition, in his opening speech in this debate last week, of the part that we have played in producing the political stability against which a start towards economic recovery can be made. We believe that this is the right road. I agree with the speaker in a radio broadcast last week who said of the Gracious Speech.
  " Well, at least the package of proposals in it will do less harm to Britain than those in any previous Queen's Speech under Labour."
  and:
  " All in all, this is not a bad Queen's Speech."
  Those are the words of the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire in the Conservatives' party political broadcast. We reject the totally negative amendment on which the Tories invite us to divide.
  5.56 p.m.
  Sir Geoffrey de Freitas: I welcome the serious attention that is being given to unemployment nationally, but I make no apology for explaining to the House that I shall be parochial, although I shall not take long. I have served in 10 Parliaments, but never before have I had to make a speech referring to unemployment in my constituency. Today I do so.
  I have frequently spoken here about the need to diversify industry in the constituency, concentrating particularly on the steel town of Corby, but never have I had to do this against a background of unemployment.
  724
  This morning, I saw the Minister of State, Department of Industry with a deputation from the district council, the county council and the development corporation to ask for assisted area status for Corby. We know the advantages that we derive from being a New Town, for example with industrial development certificates, but, after considering all the facts, the two local authorities and the development corporation concluded that we should ask for assisted area status.
  In seeking this status, the district council has considered the requirements that it would have to fulfil in order to justify its application. These are declining employment, significant unemployment, over-reliance on one industry, and a lack of alternative industry. On the first two criteria, I can tell the House that since 1970 there has been a decline in employment in Corby and that the unemployment rate now stands at 7·9 per cent. compared with 4·8 per cent. for the county, 5·2 per cent. for the region, and 6·3 per. cent for Great Britain.
  As for over-reliance on one industry, half the town's work force is employed by the British Steel Corporation. For years, and certainly since 1964, the local council, the development corporation and I have done all we could to get diversification, but because of the industrial structure of Corby it is very different from other towns.
  Corby is certainly reliant on one industry, and the British Steel Corporation is going through a bad patch and losing £10 million a week. We know that this is a national and international problem and that we are not alone in the battle. There were encouraging words from the Secretary of State for Trade, who wound up the debate last night. Referring to our membership of the European Community he said:
  " We have been using that membership constructively in trade policy terms to ensure success for our industries in areas where we are currently under attack. Our membership has provided us with the ability to achieve a better balance in the formulation of trade policies as against the United States, certainly better than any individual country of the Community could achieve.—[Official Report. 8th November 1977; Vol. 938, c. 617.]
  That makes sense because, after all, 250 million people are likely to carry more weight in international discussions than a country of 55 million people. But

  725
  whatever happens Corby is bound to be hurt. A steel town like Corby is bound to be hurt.
  We have first-rate trade unions for the steel workers and Mr. Sirs has the confidence and the support of all the steelworkers.
  I have referred to Corby as having declining employment and a high rate of unemployment, and as being reliant on one industry. I come now to the alternative industries. Over the years we have done everything possible to attract industry to the town. There have been some successes, but obviously there have not been enough. That is the problem we face today, and that is why the town needs assisted area status.
  This view is supported by the East Midlands Economic Planning Council which does not do such things lightly. I asked the Government this morning to look carefully at the problems of Corby and to give the town what it both requires and deserves.
  It is perfectly fair to ask whether we as a town are fit to get help. Will the town help itself? Corby has the ability to do justice to any grant that it should receive and to any special treatment that it should receive.
  The attractions of Corby as an industrial centre include the services of the development corporation, which is very experienced. It is a well-established community. There are few problems which have not been met in one way or another. The only disadvantage — it is a real one—is that of road connections with the immediate surroundings. We are not far from the A1 and the M1, but there is the problem of road links. This is recognised by everyone the county council, the district council, the development corporation and the chamber of commerce.
  There are rail freight facilities and air facilities at Castle Donington and Birmingham. Most important, we have modern factories ready on tap, and also a policy of leasing land to anyone who wants to plan and build a factory. It is maintained, and sadly I know it is a fact, that we have available a very good skilled labour force as well as an unskilled force.
  The council and the development corporation have developed an infra-struc-
  726
  ture for a town of 80,000 people, yet the town is only half that size. The infrastructure is there, including a technical college, a swimming pool, a golf course, and so on. It is a living community and a fine community. But there is the possibility that it could be seriously hit.
  We can offer these attractions and there is a wide range of educational facilities. including a technical college with another one a few miles away in Kettering which is complementary to it in the courses it offers. We are ready as a town, working together with the county council, to do anything we can. We also claim to build factories cheaper and better than most of our competitors, although I confess that not all of our competitors accept that.
  As I said at the beginning of my speech, this is the first time that I have had to speak against a background of unemployment in my constituency. Along with the deputation, I have asked for assisted area status for the town of Corby. The town is ready to do justice to the opportunities that this would give. I really believe, and I ask my right hon. and hon. Friends to recognise this, that we deserve help and that we shall make very good use of the help we may receive.
  6.4 p.m.
  Mr. Donald Stewart: The right hon. Member for Kettering (Sir G. de Freitas) is fortunate to be able to claim that this is the first time he has spoken about unemployment in his constituency. I do not think that I have ever been able to speak in the House without having to refer to the high level of unemployment in my constituency.
  The Leader of the Liberal Party took great credit for the advances, as he claimed, in the Gracious Speech. It appears that the right hon. Gentleman has taken credit for repelling the kind of Bolshevik measures that might have come from the Government. I confess that I did not expect that the Prime Minister would come to the Dispatch Box and, like Lenin, say "Let us now proceed to construct the Socialist society ". The Leader of the Liberal Party—I am sorry that he is not present—ought to go easy with his claim that he and his troops are running the Labour Government. There could be a counter-reaction among the other half of the Lib-Lab pact engaged on the long march.

  727
  In March 1974, when the Labour Government came to power on the slogan "Back to work with Labour ", the figure of Scottish unemployment was 89,658, or 4·1 per cent. In October this year the figure had risen to 183,889, or 8·5 per cent. In the period 8th March 1976 to 31st May 1977 the number of redundancies notified to the Department of Employment in Scotland amounted to 106,284.
  The report of the Manpower Services Commission, to which reference has already been made, states:
  "Scotland must prepare itself for a continuing high level of unemployment into the early 1980s."
  The report says that it is unwise to project a continuing improvement in the Scottish economy. An ominous picture for current and future employment in Scotland is becoming apparent. It is totally unacceptable, given the potentially strong economy of the country, that the adverse percentages are always higher in Scotland. The figure for teenagers— 13·3 per cent. of the Scottish unemployed—compares with less than 9 per cent. for the United Kingdom as a whole.
  As has already been pointed out, the frustration, demoralisation and social implications, both for those involved and for the community as a whole, are regarded by my party as totally unnecessary and unacceptable.
  The Government must make urgent moves to increase training facilities for young people. The United Kingdom trails behind its continental neighbours in this regard. Both France and Germany have introduced job creation schemes designed to give young people training which will be useful to them in the long term. In contrast, the United Kingdom job creation schemes have been piecemeal, short-term, and usually not slanted towards practical training. Despite these faults —I am not querying the motives of the Government in introducing the job creation schemes in the first place— the schemes were imaginative and useful.
  In my constituency the unemployment figure is now down to between 10 per cent. and 11 per cent. for the first time in my lifetime. That has been due to these schemes which are short-term.
  A lot of useful things—roads, piers, sheep folds, and so on—which might not
  728
  have been constructed for a long time ahead have been achieved by these schemes. I am therefore quite open in welcoming what has been done in my constituency by the job creation schemes.
  There is one point which I wish to put to the Secretary of State for Employment. I have put it to the Secretary of State for Scotland. I refer to the introduction of a road equivalent tariff in my constituency. The right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues say that this would cost an extra £3½ million but, as the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Dr. Bray) said, this is a small figure if it will guarantee a reasonable and economic system of freight to the Scottish islands. If this were done there would be scope for development and employment in a short period, and we should be saving the State some money
  I was not quite clear whether the right hon. Gentleman indicated that the job creation schemes were to continue in some form after the deadline in March 1978. I should be grateful if that could be made clear in the winding-up speech.
  I would also press again for the reintroduction of the regional employment premium. I know that Ministers claim that the money is being made available in other ways, but we see no evidence of that. Since 1971, Scotland had benefited from REP to a considerable extent. Now that the jobs boom from the oil industry is diminishing, the Government should re-examine the matter
  Successive Governments have totally neglected the essential task of meaningful long-term plans for the Scottish economy. They appear to be moving in the opposite direction. The right hon. Member for Kettering referred to the position in Corby. It would appear that the recent plans further to reduce investment in the Scottish steel industry will finish steel production in Scotland. When steel was nationalised on a United Kingdom basis, my party gave a warning. We were not all that worried about the principle of nationalisation, but we said that, once the industry was organised on a United Kingdom basis, that would be a death warrant for the Scottish industry.
  I turn to employment in the fishing industry. I need not repeat the way in which the interests of our fishermen were sold down the river—if that is the correct

  729
  term—by the Conservative Government in the first place and by the Labour Government on renegotiation. We must have a 50-mile control limit, for otherwise many of our fishermen will eventually be on the dole.
  It is becoming increasingly clear that Scotland's economic, industrial and employment problems will not be solved by out-dated and unsuccessful United Kingdom policies of Governments here. What is really needed is the opportunity to use Scotland's wealth in natural resources for a radical new approach to our problems. The exploitation of our resources under London control is robbing Scotland of the chance to build, and take decisions for, the future economy of the country. We are missing out in the short term on the major part of the industrial benefits, and in the long term the enormous revenues from oil will bypass Scotland.
  We are determined that this wealth shall be used to remedy the scars that have been allowed to fester owing to the casual approach by Governments composed of members of parties in this place. The next election will show that my party is the only one that can offer the strength of commitment to foster hope and confidence in Scotland.
  6.12 p.m.
  Mr. Stan Thorne: It is not my intention to follow the right hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr. Stewart) into a discussion of Scottish economic affairs. I intend briefly to refer to some areas of employment problems in my constituency that have been well dealt with by the Departments of Industry and Employment—I applaud what they have done—before I turn to the general problem of unemployment, which is by far the most serious problem that we face today.
  A small business in my constituency called Sharpies Photomechanics—a high-technology business, British-owned and the only one of its kind in the country—faced problems, and unemployment was on the cards. It was only after approaches to the Department of Industry that Government funds saved that vital business, and with it a number of jobs.
  The Preston docks were to be closed as a result of a decision by the Conservative-controlled Preston Borough Council taken a year ago this week. That
  730
  decision resulted in the establishment of an action committee of port workers, users, local councillors, Members of Parliament and others who were anxious not only to protect a long-established part of the Preston community but 1,000 jobs. The Departments of Employment, Industry and Transport all played a part in meeting deputations and setting up investigations into the future viability of the port. Subsequently the decision was taken to put in £2 million of Government funds to ensure that the docks could be kept open for the next two years and be made viable.
  The involvement of the action committee, based upon the community, could well be the cornerstone on which the new manager put in by the Department of Industry creates the essential viability. I have no doubt that viability can be established if he uses the co-operation that has been built up in the campaign to keep the docks open.
  This brings me to the question of industrial democracy, on which, unhappily, we shall not make much progress if the Gracious Speech is to be taken at face value. I have an aircraft factory in my constituency, and there are two others nearby. There is great concern in aerospace about the question of jobs and the involvement of the work force in the decision-making process. A document which I understand has been accepted by some in the work force defines industrial democracy as participation, consultation, the passing of information and so on. The shop stewards in the Preston area are under no illusions about what that form of words really means. It may well be viewed in some management schools as a new approach to communications, but in terms of establishing real democracy it is virtually valueless.
  When we speak of industrial democracy we are talking about the right of the work force at all levels within an industry and within individual undertakings to be involved in decision-making in a range of matters concerning products, the work force itself, the nature of marketing, the diversification that may be possible, the physical nature of the environment, prospects for the future and so on. Those are all matters in which all should be involved through a structure of committees composed of various sections within the industry. Nothing short of that can

  731
  be given the name "industrial democracy ".
  The confidence of the work force in relation to its employment prospects is extremely valuable. Here I turn to my other local problem. The right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) spoke yesterday about increasing profit margins. That is not a new matter for Conservative Members. They have been devoted to the production of increased profits for a long time.
  In my constituency a subsidiary of Lonrho—John Barnes—has been producing textiles in Preston for a long time. Lonrho has been able to record particularly high profits in parts of its large empire. Unhappily there has been a recession in textiles, and redundancy notices have gone up at John Barnes. Lonrho intends to close the factory on 30th January next year. Appeals have been made to the company, and there have been discussions with the Department of Industry.
  It is clear that the Government are willing to put in additional funds to protect the 400 jobs in Preston and Rossendale. But the board of Lonrho says "Each part of our many-sided enterprise must be autonomous, and we are not prepared to use the profits from other sections of our business to wait and see whether the Government's new negotiations on the Multi-Fibre Agreement result in an improvement in the textile industry in 1978. "
  This brings me to the question: profits for what? Are Conservative Members trying to suggest yet again that increases in profits are ploughed back into improvements in machinery, technology and such items to increase productivity within an industry? If hon. Members were to pay a visit to the textile factory of John Barnes in Preston, they would be appalled at the conditions in which the workers in that factory are operating after years of profit-making by the group of enterprises of which it is a part.
  Textiles, of course, are an important part of industry in the North-West, as are motor cars, television tubes and electronics. It has to be faced by the Government Front Bench yet again that we have been steadily importing unemployment by failing to apply selective import controls in the areas that I have mentioned. I accept
  732
  that it is the multinational companies, the monopolies and the oligopolies, that take decisions about the movement of funds and about the establishment of productive enterprises that are relevant in this context.
  However, I refer again to the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East. He talks about productivity through increased employment. It seems to me that increased employment is not part of the plan for increased productivity that investors likely to be listening to the right hon. Gentleman would be interested in applying. In fact, their investment could well lead to a fall in the level of the jobs available in certain industries through technological development. Indeed, it is widely recognised that industry has excess capacity at present.
  In regard to the problem of unemployment and increasing profit margins, we are faced with the age-old contradiction that exists within capitalist societies. People who are in business to produce goods are interested in maximising profits. At the same time it is vital, if they are to achieve their aims, to minimise costs. By far their biggest cost is undoubtedly the wages and salaries that they pay to their employees. Therefore—the Government, unhappily, have been involved in this business for the last three years—the standard of living and the wages and incomes of people have a direct relationship to the question of productivity for those seeking to maximise profits, because, if the purchasing power of the people has been so diminished that they cannot afford to purchase products, what happens is inevitable. There is a cutback in productivity. It appears to be almost a vicious circle.
  Increased productivity is obviously something in which, if we are really interested in improving living standards, we all have a vested interest. For most Labour Members, the production of socially necessary goods would be the motivation, but if that were to be done without any major increase in incomes across the board—not only for those actually in employment but for the elderly and the unemployed—there would be little prospect of taking up the increased productivity that we are all seeking to achieve.
  It seems to me that we come inevitably to the amendment in the names of

  733
  some of my hon. Friends, which, unhappily, is not being called, in regard to the whole problem of public expenditure. It is clear that if there is already a problem of excess capacity in industry and an absence of confidence on the part of those who are able to invest, it is the Government's responsibility to seek to invest in labour-intensive industries. Yesterday the Prime Minister referred to public expenditure. He described it as providing public services. That is quite obvious and quite right. It follows, therefore, that since public expenditure has been reduced, so also have public services.
  The Labour Party has prided itself over the best part of this century on improving public services in a wide sector. If we were debating housing, the figures that we could have before us today show, unhappily, a fall in the level of house building in Britain at present. In the National Health Service we hear of the slow development in the building of health centres and in the provision of more hospital beds in certain parts of the country, and the training of qualified nurses to become doctors is still something on which we have made virtually no progress at all, against this background of reduced public expenditure.
  In local authority terms—most Members of Parliament have this experience in dealing with day-to-day case work—the standard of social services in certain areas, in Lancashire in particular, is quite deplorable. Again and again we are reminded by the local authority that public expenditure cuts are responsible. I think that this has been exaggerated in certain Conservative-controlled areas. Nevertheless, it is a fact.
  Home helps are not available in the numbers required. Neither is there adequate aid to the elderly, the sick and the infirm. The number of health visitors that it is possible to call upon in many areas and the equipment for those who are handicapped, particularly the deaf, are grossly inadequate. There has been an argument recently about the availability of kidney machines. All these factors are deplorable against the background of public expenditure and the level of employment.
  Certainly, in many of the sectors that I have mentioned, in housing, health and
  734
  so on, a massive input now—not in April 1978, when £400 million worth is going in—could have an immediate impact in terms of services that could be provided.
  Mr. Ron Thomas: Does not my hon. Friend agree that the cuts in public expenditure have left us with a situation in which local authorities are certainly not geared any longer to meet this kind of injection and that, therefore, the injection that is projected will take almost a couple of years before it has any effect on jobs?
  Mr. Thorne: That is possibly true, but I believe that some projects that local authorities have had to put on the shelf because of cuts, projects which were actually at the tender stage, could very quickly be put into practice in terms of building certain major projects. By so doing, the figure of 260,000 unemployed building trade workers could be radically reduced fairly quickly. It is in that sort of area that I look for quick action from the Government.
  In education—another area of public expenditure cuts—we have a situation in which there has been a reduction in the number of students following the restrictions on overseas student grants. There has been a reduction in the number of students because of the control over discretionary grants exercised by local authorities. Because of that reduction in the number of students, inevitably there is a reduction in the number of teachers and administrative staff and a reduction in various other areas of job opportunities.
  As many Labour Members have argued time and again, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery), we should have been using the situation of the last three years to tackle the problem of oversized school classes in many areas, and the problem of city areas in which social deprivation is at its most acute and where we should be having positive discrimination in certain types of school. All this has suffered in consequence of public expenditure cuts. It has already been said today that, against that background, the Manpower Services Commission has been talking about upward trends in unemployment over the next two years and saying that the prospect for the future looks particularly dim.

  735
  I do not wish to continue speaking much longer because I know that I am already exceeding my time, but it is important to note that part of what we have been analysing today stems from the Lib-Lab pact, to which some hon. Members have already referred. There is an amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Garston (Mr. Loyden) pointing out that there is nothing in the Queen's Speech referring to public ownership of the ports industry in Britain, even though that was part of the 1974 Labour Party manifesto. That is part of the price we have to pay for the Lib-Lab pact, because I imagine that the Leader of the Liberal Party would not have accepted the inclusion of such a measure in the Gracious Speech. There are other clear indications that we have paid such a price in terms of our inability to control the economy without public intervention of a firm nature within manufacturing industry and elsewhere.
  Deliberately failing—as this Government have done—to take action to improve employment prospects for both young people and the not so young is a crime. That subject could have been discussed on Monday when the House looked at the prevention of crime within Britain today. Depriving people of work creates root-lessness, and that inevitably contributes to an increase in anti-social behaviour and the rise of Fascism.
  It is against that background that urgent action by the Government is now required. What are we going to do? During the next 12 months Parliament will be called upon to fritter away its time talking about European elections when the main problem to which it should be addressing itself is legislation that would create new jobs for 2 million people in Britain during the next two years.
  6.33 p.m.
  Mr. Julian Ridsdale: I was interested to hear the hon. Member for Preston, South (Mr. Thorne) complaining about cuts in Government expenditure. My mind immediately went to such countries as West Germany, the United States of America, and Japan where the standard of welfare 10 to 20 years ago—particularly in Japan and West Germany—was considerably lower than it was here. Those two countries put the creation of wealth before welfare because, having
  736
  been defeated, they did not have the wealth with which to pay for welfare. Unfortunately, we have put excessive welfare, which we cannot completely afford, ahead of the creation of wealth.
  If we had the wealth to maintain the standard of welfare that we now have, I should welcome it, but, to maintain that standard of welfare, we must create much more wealth. The depressing thing about what has happened under this Government during the past four years has been that the rate of production of wealth has fallen while the gross national product has flattened out completely. In Japan the GNP, in spite of recession, has risen by 6 per cent. and inflation has been controlled. I was recently in West Germany where the rate of inflation is now 3 per cent.
  I sense a mood for protectionism on the part of Labour Back Benchers, but I have also listened to economic Ministers in West Germany and to the German Chancellor, who is a free trader, not a protectionist, and who recognises the dangers to the European Community that could result from protectionism. Their philosophy is different. It is that we must create more wealth and that, if we have inefficient industry, it should face the blast of competition, if necessary, because otherwise there will be more unemployment.
  Mr. Martin Flannery: The hon. Member for Harwich(Mr.Ridsdale) has not mentioned that in Japan there is massive protectionism, so much so that British cars could not possibly penetrate that market. We must take into account the fact that in West Germany and Japan there is massive investment which the hon. Gentleman and his party have refused to put into our industry, although they talk about patriotism at the same time
  Mr. Ridsdale: I thought that that intervention would be a red herring. If we were producing sufficient cars in this country, we could enter the Japanese market. It is depressing to learn that secondhand Minis are being exported to Japan and that that is paying.
  I come to the remarks that were made by the Secretary of State today, because I noted a great change in his philosophy from the last time that he spoke. He

  737
  now recognises the problem and realises that, if we are to cure unemployment and give security to our 25 million workers, we must have efficient industry and more investment and he able to face competition.
  I am disturbed about competition from the EEC. There has been £706 million-worth of car imports from the EEC so far this year and the adverse balance amounts to £1 million per day. That figure is so high because our industry is not producing enough cars. The Secretary of State for Trade has said that three years ago we were producing 1,900,000 cars a year and that the present figure is 1,300,000. What a pity that we cannot get productivity up so that people can buy British cars and not imported ones. We are not producing enough cars.
  I turn to the steel industry. In talking to the heads of that industry, one realises that we are not getting sufficient productivity from the investment we have made in the industry, any more than we are getting sufficient productivity from the investment that we have made in the coal industry.
  I also wish to refer to my own port of Harwich. I visited management and trade unionists there last Friday. The British Railways port at Parkeston is doing very well, although it needs incentive from the Government. But what happens? The Prime Minister has done a deal for us to sell ships to Poland, but what a pity he did not turn his mind to the fact that we are operating 15-year-old ships as cross-Channel ferries. He did not say that we should modernise our shipping, but what is the difference between modernising shipping belonging to a nationalised industry and sending ships to Poland with a subsidy? I should prefer to see investment in this country.
  We must take measures to increase productivity. Trade union organisation in West Germany and Japan is conducted on an enterprise basis which encourages productivity and gives reward to those creating wealth. We must have that kind of approach here if this country is to go ahead. It does not exist here now and in some nationalised industries and British Rail, part of which work jolly well, there is demoralisation because profits are taken away from efficient industries and incen-
  738
  tive is lost. We need improved morale if we are to go ahead as we should as a country and that is what I am seeking.
  In my constituency there has been for a long time a 12 per cent. unemployment rate. It used to be in one sector, among older people, but I find that the unemployment is now spread right across the board and includes young people in their twenties as well as those in their sixties. It is now far more serious. It is extremely disturbing to see unemployment running at this rate.
  In my constituency, I have some very enterprising industries which arc going ahead and developing and which have a 50 per cent. export trade, yet one industry in my constituency is finding it impossible to recruit 50 workers. In the midst of 12 per cent. unemployment, and with youth unemployment fairly high in Colchester and in my own area, the Nash Clothing Company, an extremely enterprising company with branches in the North, cannot get 50 people to meet its huge export orders. I have written to the Secretary of State about it. I have not yet received a reply from him, though I trust that I shall have one eventually. I have asked for a special inquiry to be made. It is nonsense that, with unemployment running at the level of 12 per cent. locally, a firm cannot find 50 recruits, to help especially in the export trade.
  Confronted with problems of this kind, I have been round to schools in my constituency, and I welcome the liaison existing between industry and the schools. I have half of Essex University in my constituency. On the technical side, the university is first class. I should like to see more of those engaged in general education taking technical education, but when I go round the technical departments, I am disturbed to discover the number of foreign students who are benefiting from technical training rather than our own students.
  I agree very much with what the Secretary of State said about the shortage in a few years being of skilled people. It is so already. We must have a higher standard of education in our schools and a much closer liaison between our schools and industry and between our schools and the further technical training which is

  739
  available so that we are able to compete in a technical world.
  Our agriculture is first class. The City and its invisible exports are first class. Given their head, our smaller industries are first class. But we have to get into advanced technology if we are to create wealth. We have to get rid of the attitude of mind that the creation of wealth is wrong and that to give incentives for the creation of wealth is wrong. Without wealth we shall not be able to help solve our unemployment problems. A lot of this has to be taken up in the service industries. Only then will we have the wealth to do what is only fair and right and what should be done.
  We must have a new attitude of mind. We must get rid of the old-fashioned idea of the Left that we can build a fortress round ourselves and so protect ourselves. Many of our problems stem from the protectionism of the 1930s when we were not willing to expand and to accept competition. We do not want to see world trade in that position again.
  I have visited 19 or 20 small industries in East Anglia in the past month or so. I have also seen much of Japanese industry. I can tell the House that our own small industries are just as good and just as efficient as any Japanese industry.
  The difference between them is very simple. When I was in Japan last April, I met a number of British furniture manufacturers at our British export trade centre. They were all small business men. They asked me to tell the Government when I returned home to get off their backs. They said that they were being taxed at double the rate of the Japanese and that the Japanese were getting double the wages that they were in the same trade.
  As I go round small industries—for example, one very efficient firm making sails for the export trade and another making machine tools— I see the owners working on the shop floor. It is clear that, if tax incentives were given to them, they would create the productivity enabling them to go ahead. It can be done. A great deal of unemployment can be taken up in our smaller industries if the Government will only back them and give them the incentives which are vitally needed.
  740
  I heard the right hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. Steel) say that he was glad that a profit, sharing scheme was to be introduced by the Government. I hope that it was as a result of my Employers Investment Bill which I introduced last Session and which was opposed so vigorously by the hon. Member for Luton, East (Mr. Clemitson). Employees must be able to feel that they are part of a team and that their jobs are worth doing.
  These are improvements that we would all want to see. If we can get them, we as a country can go ahead. I am sure that, if the Secretary of State applies his mind to these matters, we shall be able to achieve them.
  In terms of the regional development fund, the Secretary of State must look at areas such as the West Country and East Anglia. There are efficient industries there which need help.
  Mr. Frederick Willey: I thought that the hon. Gentleman wanted the Government to get off their backs.
  Mr. Ridsdale: To move industry out of these areas to the North-East, with all the cost involved, is clearly absurd. I hope that the Secretary of State will see whether he cannot be more flexible with the regional development fund. It is worth while supporting some of these smaller industries which are the lifeblood of the country, and not entice them unnaturally to the North-East.
  I hope that this new attitude of mind will come. The opportunities are there. The will is there. But we must accept the spur that other market economies in Germany, Japan and America have. If we do that, we can go ahead. But if we go back to the fortress mentality of Socialism, we shall not.
  6.46 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Willey: In form at least, this debate is rather superficial. I well remember the late kin Macleod saying on one occasion that, when he was the Minister responsible, all he did was to collect the unemployment figures and publish them, with the result that when they went up he was unpopular and when they went down he was popular. He did little more than that. The same could be said of my

  741
  right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment. His Department is an administrative Department. I have no wish to promote redundnancy, but there may be a case for putting his Department into the Department of Industry.
  Today, however, we are discussing deep economic issues, and we have to solve them. It is to them that unemployment is related. Last week, the Prime Minister talked about there being 16 million unemployed in Western industrialised countries. At present, there are 7 million unemployed in the United States, and we know that this is unprecedented because there is not a slump in the United States. There is economic expansion. What we are facing is a very deep crisis in capitalism. We have to seek a solution.
  We had a period when we had Keynesian economics, the Welfare State and the sustaining of purchasing levels. But these are no longer enough. We also had the growth of the mixed economy. However, in that mixed economy public ownership in manufacturing has almost entirely been devoted to rescue operations involving Rolls-Royce, the shipyards and British Leyland. Apart from those, the nationalised industries are industries which supply manufacturing industry, and it so happens that they are industries which are in decline in terms of the manpower that they employ.
  Taking the present position compared with vesting day, there are 40,000 fewer people employed in the gas industry, there are 50,000 fewer employed in the steel industry, which is now faced with further redundancies, and in coal mining there are about half a million fewer men. We have gone into the manufacturing industry in the case of the nationalisation of aircraft and shipbuilding, but we have done so far too late to be promotional. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer), who said in an intervention that he wanted alternative work and not redundancy pay. However, there are a great many shipyard workers who will be in need of that redundancy pay.
  Apart from public ownership there has been a continuous and expensive programme of across-the-board incentives and inducements generally designed to persuade industrialists to go to socially desirable locations. This has been an all-party policy. It was considerably ex-
  742
  panded by the Industry Act 1972. But the vital point is that all this public enterprise has been negative and defensive, not positive and aggressive. Overall it has been ineffective. The development areas are still there. One can still define them because they have twice the unemployment rate of the more prosperous regions.
  Sunderland has the worst unemployment of any town in Britain, and it has been so for 10 years. I do not say that the inducements policy has been completely ineffective, because that would be an exaggeration. There has been a measure of diversification, and without that things might have been worse. Nevertheless the attitude has been negative, and I can give a simple illustration of what I mean.
  One of our major difficulties in the North-East over the last decade or so has been the 100,000 redundancies in the pits. Surely it would not be a revolutionary concept to regard these men as State employees to whom the State owed a responsibility for providing alternative work. I should have thought that that was an acceptable proposition. However, we have never taken a sufficiently positive attitude towards these problems.
  Our problems are not unique. They affect all the Western industrial countries. But we have to see what we ourselves can do. In one respect we should recognise that at the moment we have an advantage. The investment by Ford in Wales is an indication. I met some American industrialists the other day and they were convinced that the Ford company was right and that on the balance sheet of advantage and disadvantage this country at the moment is the best choice for capital investment abroad. We had better take the greatest advantage of that while we can.
  I say that because there is at present the delay about deciding on Hitachi. We must have a decision. We must decide whether the safeguards can be met. If we go on with the procrastination and delay, it will seem that we are reluctant to accept investment from abroad, and I do not believe that we can afford that.
  In considering unemployment, the crucial factor is investment. In our approach to this problem we have to recognise that there has been a very

  743
  radical change. Parliament has provided important new machinery. There is the National Enterprise Board and the complementary planning agreements. The NEB is charged to extend public ownership into profitable areas of manufacturing industry.
  The Board is charged with creating new jobs in areas of high unemployment. The trouble is that Parliament has provided the tools to do the job, but they are not being used sufficiently. An insufficiently effective effort has been made to use the machinery that Parliament has willed. To rectify this lack of response we should break the problem down and tackle it at ground level.
  So I turn to the Northern Region, and to Sunderland in particular. I do this not only because devolution has made unemployment a particularly sensitive issue in the North-East but also because the Northern Region has had for some time the highest level of unemployment of all the regions and Sunderland has had the worst unemployment. I do not want to give lots of figures, but in terms of benefit and aid unemployment costs more than El million a week in Sunderland alone.
  Earlier this year we were shocked by the Plessey closures. We got the NEB report on the North-East and the North-West. We in the North are very much obliged to the regional director for the work he is doing in the North-East. We have had a plethora of reports describing what should be done about employment in the North-East. I regard this report, however, as one of the best. I say that for two reasons. It is constructive and it is concise.
  I shall touch on two of the report's recommendations. One is that the
  " armoury of assistance should be focused more sharply on the special development areas."
  The Government must do more about this than they have done. They have responded, but they must do more. Since the report was published, Sunderland Corporation has submitted a detailed report to the Department. We want action on that report, and at the same time we should like a skillcentre in Sunderland.
  The second recommendation concerns North Sea oil. We need a major offshore contracting company. It is an absolute scandal that practically the whole of the servicing and maintenance of our rigs is done by foreigners, principally the Dutch and the Norwegians. We have to put that right. This is not a matter of building a fortress around Britain but is a question of showing initiative. If private enterprise cannot show that initiative, the Government had better see what they can do. This is an important matter for Sunderland because we have Greenwell's repair yard which was closed some time ago and the docks. This is the best base in the country for the offshore industry. Therefore, let us pursue that.
  All these reports are being sympathetically considered. We have more hope of action from the NEB Report simply because the NEB is behind it. I am glad that there is to be a regional board which will reinforce this. However, the major problem remains one of implementation. We now want, particularly in the light of our experience since the war, a different approach. I concede to the hon. Member for Harwich (Mr. Ridsdale) that we want to apply more the practices and attitudes of private enterprise. We want to get more direct, more selective, action. We want to allow for a greater element of personal responsibility and enterpreneurial judgment. We want to allow for more flexibility.
  A long time ago I was a member of the North-Eastern Trading Estate Company. I raised this issue there. Mr. Sadler Foster and I went to the Board of Trade, as it then was, and asked the officials what return they wanted on their money. We said "Tell us what you want and we shall see that you get it, but leave the rest to us. As long as we give you your return, let us do the job." We said that for obvious reasons. We were building factories which firms required no inducement to occupy. It was enough that we were able to build a factory and that the labour was available there. At the same time, there were other cases in which we wanted to provide a more tailored incentive for the companies that we particularly wanted to get into the North-East. That demonstrates the attitude we want to see. The Secretary of State for Employment is on our side, because he said

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  the other day that we should not wait for Westminster and Whitehall to do things for us. So let us do them ourselves.
  I appeal to the Government, therefore, to do one of two things—or possibly both. Let us have a development agency with full powers to carry out everything under Section 7 of the Industry Act. Let us have an agency which will be responsible, and give it full powers. Then we shall get the job done.
  Alternatively, let the Government accept the proposals which I made a month or two ago. First, let us have a Minister for the North. I want a Minister for the North because so many decisions now are being taken by Ministers. I emphasise the word "Ministers ". In the old days a Minister took a decision, but that is not so now. It is always a plurality of Ministers. There is the Hitachi question, for example. If decisions of that kind are to be taken, we want a Minister for the North to be there when they are reached.
  Much more important, however, I want a commissioner for Sunderland, or, as the Sunderland Echo put it in describing my proposal, a jobs supremo. He would be accountable to the Minister for the North. In other words, I want somebody who would be personally accountable for creating new jobs in Sunderland. There is plenty of scope. In the first place, we have more than a score of empty Government factories. We are still building more, but these factories remain idle. If we had somebody who recognised that it was his responsibility to get machinery and work into those factories, I do not imagine that any hon. Member on the Opposition Benches would complain if he was driven to do it by public enterprise. His job would be to get work into those factories. The second job would be to ensure that we had an offshore servicing industry established in Sunderland, based on Greenwell's and the docks.
  I recognise that this would be experimental, but let us see how it would turn out. I believe that it would be successful. I believe also that it would be a precedent for introducing a new-style administration which might begin the reinvigoration of British industry we need.
  7.1 p.m.
  Mr. James Molyneaux. The selected amendment refers to unemployment, a subject never far from the minds of Ulster Members. No doubt the reasons for our Province's unenviable pre-eminence in the grim statistics are numerous, but one major reason is not new. It is the peripheral position of the Province in relation to the rest of the United Kingdom which intensifies all the stresses and handicaps which affect Britain as a whole. This is the basic economic reason for our hostility to membership of the Common Market. It is bad enough to be peripheral to the British economy. It is much worse to be peripheral to a British economy which itself is a peripheral region of the European economy.
  It was certain that if inflation were to be overcome an increase, though temporary, in unemployment would be an unavoidable consequence. But we on this Bench have always maintained that to overcome inflation was the first priority, and we have, as we promised at the beginning of this Parliament, supported the Government in the financial measures necessary to that end, even when those measures were unpopular. It is difficult to imagine how any other party in the House could or would have met the challenge of inflation more successfully. That is why we did not support the amendment yesterday, and we shall not support the amendment tonight.
  One deduction can be drawn with complete confidence from the relationship between Ulster's geographical situation and Ulster's unemployment. Everything which improves communications of all kinds—from airlines to pipelines—between Ulster and the mainland and everything, which integrates Ulster's economy into that of Britain as a whole is of benefit to Ulster's people. The House will find in that fact the unifying thread which runs through nearly all the objectives which my party pursues from Session to Session.
  It would be repeating a truism to allude to the connection between Ulster's economic experience and the terrorist campaign waged against all of our people over the past eight years. I am glad to record —it would be disingenuous not to do so, despite all past disappointments—the striking improvement of which all who

  747
  know the Province are well aware. I shall not take up time in this debate by discussing the reasons why this improvement has occurred. Instead, I shall look ahead. I wish to look at that aspect of manpower which is referred to in the passage of the Gracious Speech which reads:
  "continuing to develop the effectiveness of the Royal Ulster Constabulary, supported by My Armed Forces."
  At this point, perhaps I might record our satisfaction at the reference to Northern Ireland being placed in that section of the Gracious Speech which deals with the affairs of the United Kingdom—the first time since 1969 when Northern Ireland came in for separate mention.
  For many years, it has been orthodox Unionist policy to insist that the Royal Ulster Constabulary ought to be the law enforcement agency, as it would be in the rest of the United Kingdom. We have reason to believe that this view was not universally shared among others, but it seems that we have at last got it right.
  The Royal Ulster Constabulary and the RUC Reserve are daily increasing in strength and in confidence. The strength and effectiveness of that other indigenous element of Her Majesty's Armed Forces, the Ulster Defence Regiment, have been increasing also, particularly through the expansion of the full-time element. Co-operation between that Ulster Defence Regiment and the Royal Ulster Constabulary is steadily improving and ought to be still further developed, and both ought to be supplied and equipped with the best available equipment.
  It follows that, as the effectiveness of these Ulster forces increases, the need for support from the Army will correspondingly diminish. It is our view that reductions can then be made in that part of the Northern Ireland commitment which places the greatest strain on the Army in terms of manpower. I refer, of course, to the short-stay elements—units which rotate on a four-month tour of duty. In terms of manpower, this is a wasteful exercise because, when the periods fore and aft of the four-month tour are taken into account, the total non-availability of units is about seven months, and, of course, its effect on training programmes is disastrous.
  The most economical use of manpower is seen in the long-stay or garrison formations and in specialist units such as
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  the SAS or the Royal Corps of Military Police. We, the elected representatives of Northern Ireland, must begin to think more along these lines and perhaps to warn the public against listening to those who, predictably, will cry British withdrawal "every time an outgoing unit is not replaced.
  The Prime Minister and the Government have given firm evidence of their determination to defend the integrity of the United Kingdom, and we know from experience that reinforcements can be provided within a matter of hours, should the need arise.
  All this, of course, has its relevance to the concern expressed by the hon. Member for Abingdon (Mr. Neave), shared. I am sure, by the whole House, over the standard of living accommodation. It is not suggested that four-star accommodation ought to be provided for some 14.000 troops. While we all want to ensure that the long-stay troops and their families are provided with a high standard of accommodation and that living conditions are made as tolerable to those on four-month tours as active service and the security situation permit, a gradual reduction in numbers would naturally ease the position and make possible a significant improvement in the conditions of the smaller number who would still be required.
  No one will imagine that anything I have said detracts in any way from the contribution of the Army over the past troubled years. But it was never intended —nor, indeed, foreseen—that it should be committed for such a long period and in such great strength. Hitherto it has been the presence and backing of the Army in strength that has made possible the rebuilding of the morale and effectiveness of the security forces of the Province, which earlier mistaken policies had shaken. There is, however, a point—and it is rapidly being reached—after which the effectiveness and acceptance of the local security forces can continue to develop only if they are seen to rely more on themselves and less upon the back-up of the Regular Army.
  We on this Bench have frequently voiced the willingness of Ulstermen to defend their part of the realm. To them, it is gratifying to be doing so in ever greater measure alongside other servants of the Crown.
  7.11 p.m.
  Mr. Jim Craigen: The Queen's Speech refers to the continuance of action
  " to reduce high unemployment through manpower measures and to promote industrial training "
  and the opening speeches today seemed to concentrate on manpower policy. As I listened to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment it struck me that in some senses we are using a great sledgehammer to crack a somewhat uncrackable nut, because, no matter how hard we try to deal with the difficulty by using the special manpower measures introduced in recent years, we are resolving the problem of unemployment for only a relatively small percentage of those who, unfortunately, are out of work.
  In some senses, we have come a long way from the time when the "three wise men" were getting their knuckles rapped for suggesting that a level of 2½ per cent. unemployment was the equal of full employment in this country. What I find particularly disturbing about the number of people now out of work is the large proportion who are under 20 years of age. This is especially worrying because someone leaving school is at a particularly impressionable period in his life. Moreover, one would assume that this is a period during which he is more adaptable to the requirements of employment and, further, that it is a crucial period for training opportunities.
  I want to direct my remarks particularly to the problems facing some of our inner city areas. I welcome the fresh thinking that the Government appear to be giving to the problem of urban renewal and reinvigorating life within our inner cities. It was appropriate that yesterday my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment made a statement about his intentions in England. I trust that we shall get a follow-up statement from the Secretary of State for Scotland in respect of the continuing measures in Scotland.
  I am aware of the initiative that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland announced last year for the Glasgow East End project. This is a sizeable project, and I suggest that there is scope for measures of a similar kind on a smaller scale. I have in mind the
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  Maryhill corridor, where my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Kelvingrove (Mr. Carmichael) and I have a particular interest. Earlier this year Glasgow District Council decided that there should be a local plan for the Maryhill corridor, and I trust that the Department of Employment and the Scottish Office will take a special interest in measures to increase job opportunities there.
  The White Paper on inner city areas highlighted the problem of the erosion of job opportunities in many of our city centres. In the city of Glasgow alone, in the decade 1961 to 1971 we experienced a shortfall of about 16 per cent. in our manufacturing employment opportunities, particularly in mechanical engineering, shipbuilding, textiles, clothing and the timber and furniture industries.
  One of the things that worry me about the over-concentration on the need to expand our manufacturing sector—and I think that there is a need to develop manufacturing industries—is that we cannot all be in manufacturing industries. The extent to which many service industries provide employment in our inner city areas is something we cannot afford to ignore. In my area, a number of firms are currently making use of the temporary employment subsidy—I am sure that this applies to many other areas too —and I wonder about what will happen to individual employees when the TES has to stop.
  Glasgow District Council has been finding that there is a considerable demand for small factory units of less than 5,000 sq. ft., and sometimes even less than 2,000 sq. ft. I think that the building of such units will have to receive much more sympathetic consideration than has so far been given to the matter by the Scottish Office which now has responsibility not only for industry but for employment.
  I have been in correspondence with the Scottish Development Agency about the efforts it might be able to make in the way of building small factory units, because so far its efforts have been directed largely at the construction of fairly large units. However, as the Agency points out, small units are more costly to build in terms of square footage and in terms of the number of jobs they provide. There would need to be some alteration in the indicators currently used by the Scottish Office for the Agency's

  751
  building functions. I hope that what I have said will be passed on to the appropriate Department. It would have been better had the point been made yesterday during the industry debate, but, unfortunately, I did not get an opportunity to participate then.
  Another aspect of the problem of small factory units is the difficulty that is frequently experienced by tenants who want to leave their somewhat inadequate factory accommodation in paying the rents of new premises. One feels that some additional help will have to be given to them, even if it is only for the first two or three years.
  A lot of attention has been paid to the need to improve industrial performance. One of the attitudes that bedevil our industrial thinking is the legacy of the 1930s and the mass unemployment of that time. One has to remember the effect that that has had on the minds of men and women, many of whom are now in positions of leadership in industry. It affects attitudes towards such things as job security, or insecurity. I am worried about the almost Frankenstein conditions that we appear to be creating in the 1970s for the new generation of young workers. I do not think that we can afford to ignore the implications of the attitudes that might be developing for the future of labour policy and industrial relations.
  I interjected during the Secretary of State's opening speech on the matter of the movement away from employing youngsters in industry. I thought that there was a very ominous situation developing in which many employers, for a variety of social reasons, were preferring to engage older staff when taking on additional labour.
  One is inclined to forget, in the midst of all the talk about how we should spend the North Sea oil bonanza, that it is not so many months since Red Adair had to come over to help the Norwegians cap a blow-out in their sector of the North Sea. At the same time, we are witnessing in this country a similar waste through a blow-out of the number of youngsters coming on to the labour market each year. As the Secretary of State reminds us, an additional 100,000 are coming on to the labour market each year. More will have to be done to cap this type of human wastage.
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  The one figure that I jotted down during the Secretary of State's speech was that by 1981 we would require 1,400,000 new jobs. Precious little thought has been given to the problems associated with this. From where will these jobs come, from what sections of industry and commerce? How will we steer the additional numbers of young people into particular industries? As has been pointed out, many youngsters—whether this is due to the attitude of schools I do not know—prefer to go into non-technical and non-productive industries. This is equally true of our universities, where there seems to be a preference to go in for social rather than scientific, non-productive rather than productive employment.
  I do not mean to be personally critical of the Secretary of State, because I have sufficient regard for his integrity to know that he is doing his best, but at times I despair of the musical chairs way in which we seem to reorganise our employment agencies. We have moved some distance from the days of the Industrial Training Act, put on the statute book in 1964. This Act was largely forged and developed by the last Labour Government and it has since been superseded by fresh legislation setting up the Manpower Services Commission. One of the primary objectives of the Industrial Training Act was to make sure that we would get the quantity and quality of labour required by individual industries. Also, firms were to share the cost of training. I fear that we have moved away from those admirable objectives.
  When one looks at the unemployment figures in detail, one sees one of the staggering aspects is the large percentage of people, young and old, who are classified as general labourers or unskilled people. This means that far more attention must be paid to the training and retraining aspects of our existing policy.
  Recently, the Strathclyde Regional Council talked about the possibility of opening an adult training centre in my area. I do not think it should be any part of the local authority's job, especially in these difficult times of the rate support grant, to be talking of this kind of task. This should be a task for central Government. I hope that the Department concerned will look at the possibility of opening a new skillcentre in the Maryhill area of the city.

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  I conclude with a word or two about the job creation scheme. In its way it has been useful. A lot of helpful and valuable work has been done by those concerned with its organisation. But I have always taken the view that its role is limited and I think it would have been better, in borrowing the concept from Canada as we did, to have called it the Local Initiatives Programme—the term the Canadians use. One of the difficulties in operating this scheme—I have had correspondence with the Secretary of State on this matter before—is that it is easier to get schemes off the ground in the better-off areas than it is in the deprived areas. This is because of a lack of professional skills available in the community and the lack of ready cash for promotion in the poorer areas.
  It concerns me that at times we seem to have great difficulty in getting public money to promote projects in our areas when at the same time the Manpower Services Commission is giving out money for people to study work—not actually to do it, but to study it. One receives questionnaires from people on special schemes about facilities for which local authorities or the central Government say that they do not have the cash. The Department of Employment and the Scottish Office, in so far as it has employment functions, will have to look at the employment potential of the inner city areas in much more detail and far more energetically than they have in the past.
  7.27 p.m.
  Mr. David Madel: I agree with the hon. Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mr. Craigen) that memories of high unemployment in the 1930s linger on for a long time and have had very damaging consequences for industry. The memory then was that one particular political party was exclusively to blame for the situation. In view of the events of the past three and a half years, I do not believe that anyone can fling exclusive blame on to one party. We are grappling with a world problem.
  One of the previous speakers on the Labour Benches said that the unemployment situation was a crisis of capitalism. It is nothing of the sort. We have had fast and fantastic changes in technology and in energy use, and this answers the point about declining numbers employed in the gas industry, for example. When
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  we talk about the next five or 10 years we must realise that unless the Americans can come to grips with the current oil crisis facing them there will be a hideous slump in the United States, which will drag us down as well. We cannot sell President Carter's energy programme for him, but unless it is successful there are bound to be serious consequences for this country.
  This debate is being held at a most opportune time. It is taking place on the day that the Manpower Service Commission's annual report is published. In paragraph 2.25 on page 11 of that report the Commission says:
  " The Government's industrial strategy … is intended to create wealth and income which in turn create growth and employment and there is bound to be a time-lag before employ-ment responds to increases in output but the dilemma in the shorter term remains."
  We have heard today that in order to pull unemployment down to 800,000 by 1981, 1·3 million new jobs must be created. Whatever we think of the Manpower Services Commission, it does not just stop the argument there. There is a great deal more in the report to suggest how this problem can be tackled. The Government will no doubt respond to the annual report, and they must face up to the argument contained in paragraph 2.25. Do they accept that in the short term the position, vis-à-vis investment and jobs, is unavoidable?
  I turn to the comments on technician training, on page 33, in paragraph 4.35. In this section the report states that
  " high priority is being given to developing technician training, particularly where it is linked with the requirements of industrial strategy."
  My question on that is: are the Government satisfied that the Manpower Services Commission can find a sufficient number of instructors to carry out this programme, which they rightly say will be needed by industry if the industrial strategy is to be successful? The report states that
  "1,400 people completed technician training
  courses under TOPS in 1976."
  If we are to exceed that figure—it is hinted that we ought to do that—the question is whether a sufficient number of instructors can be found.
  This is all part of an extension of the education system. I recall that earlier this year the Department of Education and Science published its document on the

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  training and retraining of teachers to teach mathematics, physical sciences and technology. On page 2, under the heading "Am I eligible?", it stated that
  " Applicants must be aged 28 or over, and must not have followed full-time courses of higher or further education in the last five year."
  If we are to get people to take up technician training, and if we are to find instructors, we shall first have to get the mathematics right in schools and find more mathematics teachers. This scheme was concocted by the Government, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his April Budget this year, announced £200 million for it. I wonder why the Government have made an age stipulation. A number of people who have left teacher training colleges with qualifications in the arts are unable to get jobs. Assuming that they left teacher training college at 21, there is a seven-year gap before they are eligible to apply under the scheme. Will the Government look at that?
  In view of the fact that £200 million of public money is involved, will the Secretary of State tell us how many people have started courses under this scheme for the training and retraining of teachers, as publicly stated by the Department of Education and Science?
  As to the future of skillcentres and teacher training colleges, I note that in paragraph 4.46 of its report the Manpower Services Commission does not think that there will be much further development of skillcentres of the traditional kind, providing a minimum of 150 places. It is indicated, however, that there is a possibility of
  " smaller skillcentres, or of facilities shared with other training bodies serving smaller towns in rural areas where the need to move away from home has, up to now, sometimes deterred potential applicants ".
  That is certainly recognising a problem. Many people find that the skillcentre is too far from their home. I wonder whether there has been consultation with the relevant Departments about converting into skillcentres those teacher training colleges which are being closed down. Some of them are sited in rural or semi-rural areas, and it would be a sensible way of overcoming this difficulty.
  Tied in with that question, and with skillcentres and the future of training,
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  is the mobile instructor service. In para. 4.56 of the report, on page 36, the Commission states that in 1976 this service
  " provided training for over 2,000 workers on employers' premises ".
  I believe that more could be done in that respect.
  Many employers would welcome the opportunity of making use of the facilities of the mobile instructor service. It is a question of cost. At present the service is free. Ought there to be a charge made, and should it be partly shared between employer and Government? I pose that only as a question, but from the success that the scheme has had, albeit limited, and the knowledge that I have of local industries in my area, I believe that there is a considerable future for the mobile instructor service as now provided.
  As to the new special programmes for unemployed people, I gather that fairly soon the MSC will produce mark II of its document—" The new special programme for unemployed people … the next steps ". I believe that the Secretary of State said that before Christmas the Government would make an announcement about that. The period of consultation indicated in the first document, which came out in July, was up to 30th September, so that everything had to be in by then. On training, the emphasis in that document is on the number of people who will be needed. Foremen training people on employers' premises will not have had any experience of that kind of work. How much training will be provided before the start of the scheme? Will those running area boards be senior civil servants, and how much training will they require?
  I think we have to accept the view that nearly everyone felt that there would have to be some form of training given if the scheme were to be properly implemented. Given that the Government want it to be off the ground by September 1978, will a sufficient number of people have been trained?
  Concerning finance, is there not a case for funds being released before next April, as premises and equipment must be acquired? Six months from April to September will not be long enough. If the scheme is to cater for 230.000 people, premises and equipment will form an

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  important part of it. To date, no funds have been released. When will they be released given the need for equipment?
  A special effort will have to be made, if the Government go full ahead on this, to reach the unregistered young unemployed people. The whole emphasis has been on the provision of a skill to a very much larger number of people, but the very people who have not a skill are often those who have left school and have not registered as unemployed. It is important for the unregistered young unemployed to be reached by the scheme.
  I have two points to make to the Government on what is happening in the countries of the European Economic Community. They relate to how we can persuade employers to take on more young people. The French have a scheme whereby, for the first job for a young person under 25, the employer is relieved of all social security payments for that person. We have something roughly like that, but I should be interested to know whether the Government have studied the French scheme or think that it could be adopted here.
  Secondly, there is a scheme in Belgium whereby a person taking early retirement —retiring at, say, 62—must be replaced by someone under 30.
  In paragraph 4.5 of the MSC report, on page 37, there is mention of
  " the development of training methods and dissemination of training knowledge ".
  What has come out of that? In the event of the scheme outlined in "The Next Steps" being launched, a great deal must be learned about whether the right training methods are being adopted.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Employment wrote to me in August on that point, stating that information from the University of Warwick research projects on the effect of new technology on jobs was not yet available, and that he hoped it would be available very shortly. Many speakers in the debate have said that much of the unemployment is caused by the effect of technology on jobs. I know that the Government have gone to the expense of setting up this unit in the University of Warwick. What information is now available from it?
  The relationship between the Department of Education and Science, the Department of Employment and the Manpower Services Commission has come into many of the speeches in the debate. A very important point is whether the careers service should or should not come under the wing of the Manpower Services Commission. It is vital that before people leave school they should have a much greater knowledge of what can be done for them if they find themselves in the unfortunate position of being unemployed.
  The report is full of the many schemes that arc being launched by the Manpower Services Commission. Not all of them are perfect but no one could accuse the Commission of a lack of energy. My anxiety is that some people who leave school do not know of the range of projects and opportunities that are available from the Commission. Anything that can be done to get the MSC into the schools to explain the problems of the economy and the opportunities for retraining people should they be unemployed would be welcome. We must not be shy or indecisive about this problem. We must retrain massively if we are to bring down these hideous unemployment figures.
  7.41 p.m.
  Mr. Joseph Ashton: The House may think that it is unusual for me to speak from the Back Benches. I resigned my position as a Whip this morning. That was not because of an immediate difficulty with the Government. I indicated some time ago that I wished to return to the Back Benches. However, the situation has become more pressing this week because of events in my constituency due to the power workers' dispute.
  My constituency contains the Trent Valley power stations, which are the biggest in Europe and employ hundreds of workers. Any one of those power stations is big enough to light the whole of London.
  There has been a long-standing grievance among workers in the power stations, particularly those in the rural coalfields. In many cases it is difficult for workers to travel to their power stations because of the lack of public transport.

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  Comparison has been made between the power workers and the miners. The miners receive concessionary coal to burn at home. The rents of miners' homes are often one-third that of the rents of electricity workers' homes. Miners often have a subsidised bus to take them to the pit.
  The power workers are faced with a different situation. Small villages have been built near some power stations. They often comprise modern houses which are difficult to heat because they have too many windows. That has been a grievance for a long time. In many areas, if a man does not have a car he cannot get a job. Power workers work round the clock on a shift system for seven days a week. The stage was reached when public transport became almost nonexistent. The grievances have festered for seven or eight years. I have raised them with the Chancellor of the Exchequer but apparently it is not his responsibility.
  The position became so bad that two years ago there was an attempt to form a breakaway union. One of the power workers' grievances is that in any other nationalised industry there tends to be only one union—one for the railways, one for the pits and another for the Post Office. Because of fragmentation in the power workers' organisations, grievances never reach the top. Four unions are involved. Shop stewards are not recognised as they are in other industries, and the works committees do not have power to talk about pay and conditions with the employers. The difficulties arise because of that situation.
  The unions believe that if workers have a grievance they should take it to the local union branch. Normally, that system works. However, a local branch can be 10 or 15 miles away from a man's place of work, and because of shifts workers often cannot attend meetings. Rural branches usually include workers in other small industries, and the electricity workers' grievances take a back seat. The grievances grew and an unofficial committee of shop stewards was set up. They got together to push their claim against the wishes of the union and the electricity board.
  The British electricity industry is probably one of the finest in Europe, if not
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  the world. Unlike other industries, it does not suffer from such ailments as over-manning, lack of investment and flexibility, and strict demarcation lines. The response of the workers has been magnificent.
  In the last 10 years the number of national joint industrial council staff employed has fallen from 41,000 to 31,000. In the same period the number of power station employees per megawatt produced has fallen by 52·9 per cent. The number of units per power station employee has risen by over 76 per cent., and the total number of units supplied has increased by nearly 34 per cent. Thermal efficiency has risen from 27 per cent. to 31 per cent. The number of people employed in the industry has dropped from 132,000 at the time of Wilberforce to 87,000.
  That is a magnificent record for the workers in the industry. It has been combined with an investment policy which has created one of the most efficient industries in the world. If every other industry was as efficient, there would be no problem about creating wealth. However, things have gone wrong and the situation has turned sour.
  We must ask why people are now sitting in the dark. It is because a total lack of communication now exists in the industry. Six or seven years ago, a productivity agreement was introduced which meant that men would agree to do different jobs in different areas. For example, a crane driver could be asked to sweep the shop floor. He would be paid an extra £7 or £8 a week for that.
  However, the men felt that their claims for concessionary travel and electricity were not being put in the proper quarter, and they began to work to rule. They said that they would not operate the productivity and pay agreement. They said that until they were given concessionary travel and electricity a crane driver who was asked to sweep a floor would say "No ". This decision had an effect on the electricity industry which was brought rapidly to a climax last weekend when the management of one power station stated that workers were breaking their agreement and that if they worked to rule they would not be paid.

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  A letter from the management of the Drax power station stated:
  "Those staff taking unofficial industrial action are not complying with the NJIC Agreement which is incorporated in their individual Contracts of Employment, and are working to rules of their own making. They are, therefore, in breach of Contract and will not be paid until they resume normal working."
  The men's reaction to that was that the board was acting wrongly. The board was entitled to stop the £7 or £8 because the men were working to rule—that would have been within the agreement—but it was not entitled to stop the full pay of a man who had done a full day's work at his normal job. That led to a strike at West Burton. Over the weekend, nine power stations went on strike and a further 60 were involved in the dispute.
  Because of the three massive power stations in my constituency, and because I have close personal contact with some of the shop stewards involved, they asked me to attend a meeting of shop stewards held in Doncaster on Monday afternoon. I went in the hope that some sort of link would be available with Westminster and that some sort of bridge could be built. I did not go and could not go in any official capacity. There were 26 shop stewards present. I put it on record at once that those 26 shop stewards are not raving, militant men out to smash the country; they are not politically motivated subservients out to smash the capitalist system or anything of the sort. They are ordinary, decent workers who felt that their voice was not being heard either because of the bureaucracy of the board or because the union structure did not allow it.
  Many of those workers were conscious of what was happening, with power supply being cut off. They, too, have elderly parents whose supply gets cut off. They were often being abused and spat upon by neighbours in local supermarkets and they were anxious that the dispute should be brought to an end.
  After three or four hours' discussion, there was an overwhelming vote that the men would return to work under normal working conditions provided that they could get three assurances. They did not ask for very much. They were in a position to demand very much more, but they asked only for three concessions. The first was that the loss of pay for the people who had been sent home for working to
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  rule should be reinstated. In other words, if a crane driver had done a full day's work as a crane driver, even if he had not co-operated in the bonus system by sweeping up, he should get his pay. After all, even though the power station was working only partially, electricity was still being sent out and the board will send out the bills and the customers will have to pay. Such a gesture by the board would have cost very little compared with the millions of pounds a day that it claims to be losing while the dispute continues.
  Secondly, the shop stewards asked that when the official negotiations on the pay claim begin in March, instead of a flat 10 per cent. being thrown at them there should be a chance also to talk about concessionary travel to work and concessionary electricity, shift allowances and so on. Thirdly, they asked for better recognition for workers on the shop floor, either at shop steward level or through other workers in the industry.
  It appeared to me that those three points would be acceptable to the Government. Better recognition for shop stewards was mentioned in the Gracious Speech in the reference to introducing worker democracy into the nationalised industries. It would not mean that they would take over from the heads of the trade unions. It would mean that the management would listen to them when they had a complaint or grievance. Democratisation in the nationalised industries is now Government policy and should be accepted.
  Again, there was no reason why the men should not have on the agenda for the March pay negotiations the problems of concessions. It was a matter for the board, therefore, whether it wished to say "As this was a work to rule, we will not pay the extra £8 productivity bonus but we will pay the basic wage to those who turned up." The Government have introduced a tripartite agreement for the gas industry which brings in the Government, the industry and the workers, and there is no reason why such a system should not be introduced in the electricity industry as well.
  Those shop stewards would have been satisfied with those three concessions. They said "We will take a couple of days to open the channels. We will go back to work at 10 o'clock on Wednesday night

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  provided that these things can be introduced." What happened? The board has stood on its high horse and said "We are not going to pay for those days when people turned up to work and worked to rule even though they did work. No concession and no payment can be made to these employees." That is asking for trouble.
  The men have held out the olive branch. They have said that they will go back to work. We know the attitude of Mr. Toombes and Mr. England. It is quite incredible that the bosses of the industry cannot accept the olive branch, get the power back on and carry on the talks in March. But they are adamant that they will not pay for those days of work to rule.
  I have been in touch with the secretary of the unofficial committee today. The Yorkshire shop stewards are to recommend at their next meeting on Friday a total stoppage, which is a very serious situation. At last Monday's meeting in Doncaster there were recommendations, all of which were turned down, that notice should be given that the shift system would be stopped—in other words, the men would work regular days but not evenings and weekends. That would instantly bring power supply to a halt. As I have said, that proposal was rejected, as were motions to scrap the bonus productivity scheme.
  These men have leaned over backwards to come to some sort of terms and go back to work with dignity and respect, but the board does not even talk to them. It only puts things in the newspapers, and there is no communication. We are now entering a serious situation because the board will not pay for work that has been done as it was done under the work to rule. There are two consequences of the board's action. First, the dispute will continue. Either the work to rule will go on or, if the Yorkshire shop stewards have their way, there will be a total unofficial stoppage.
  The alternative consequence of the board's action is that the men will be defeated and go back to work bitter, angry and determined that at some time in the future they will get revenge. What an atmosphere to build up for the pay talks next March. For the sake of a few pounds and a few concessions, the board
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  is going to build up a bitterness in those March negotiations which will cost it 10, or perhaps 100, times more. The men will say "We will get our money back for November and show who is boss."
  At the moment, work is being continued at power stations by staff unions, so the board thinks that the men's action will fail. But the board should remember that the staff unions themselves have put in for pay rises of 20 to 25 per cent. When it comes to the March settlement and the official round of pay talks, the staff unions will not be available to keep the power stations running. By that time, the whole amosphere will have soured and the job of the board, the Government and anyone involved in the talks will be almost mountainous.
  I hope that, even at this late stage, someone in the Government can lean heavily on the bosses of this nationalised industry, who seem to have no industrial relations sense, and tell them "Pay the men for the work they did under the work to rule, and then we will start to talk." If the board stays on its high horse, there will be disruption from this weekend onwards. It is time that the people in the board were told by the Government "Pay the money."
  Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine): Order. I still have a number of hon. Members on my list who have sat throughout the debate, and unless speeches are reasonably brief in the next hour it will impossible to accommodate them all.
  7.59 p.m.
  Mr. Tim Smith: I was sorry to hear that my neighbour, the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) had resigned as a Government Whip this morning, but it gave him the opportunity eloquently to put the case of a number of his constituents involved in an unofficial dispute with their employers, and whether one agrees with him or not one sympathises with the difficult situation in which he finds himself.
  When my right hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) referred to the high level of unemployment at present as being a very distressing situation, I was sorry to hear cries of "Hypocrisy" from Labour Members. People

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  outside it have a pretty low regard for the House in the first place, and such abuse hurled across the Floor does nothing to improve the image.
  Labour Members should accept that the Conservative Party also regards unemployment as a social evil and wishes to see it eradicated. We might disagree about the means towards that end, but we have equally good intentions. Indeed, the record of the Labour Party in this respect is not all that it might be. The Secretary of State referred to the crisis of 1929–1931 and the great slump. It is interesting to note what my predecessor, David Marquand, wrote about this period of Labour Government in his biography of Ramsay MacDonald. Referring to the unemployment figures at that time, he said:
  " For the Labour Party, which had consistently proclaimed that unemployment was the inevitable consequence of the social order which it alone was committed to transform, and which now found itself presiding over the worst increase in unemployment in living memory, they spelt failure, bitterness and a sense of guilt."
  It seems that, once again, we have a Labour Government presiding over the worst increase in unemployment in the living memory of many people in this country. As long as this situation prevails, this Government cannot be reckoned to have succeeded, because 1·4 million working people in this country have been let down.
  There is an interesting parallel here with the 1929·1931 period. At that time economic orthodoxy was being questioned and had lost ground and finally surrendered to Keynesian economics. At that time politicans of all parties found themselves in unknown territory, groping for the way ahead.
  Today I think that Keynesian economics have been discredited. The situation was described earlier by a Labour Member as "a crisis of capitalism ". I do not believe that that is correct. It is simply a change in circumstances. We have seen high inflation and high unemployment escalate together as a result of a change in the international situation. Again, we find ourselves in unknown territory, groping for the way ahead.
  This is especially true of youth unemployment, which is perhaps the greatest problem that we face today. I am sorry
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  that there is no reference to this problem in the Queen's Speech. The Conservative Party tabled an amendment referring to it, because this problem has implications not just for the employment of young people, but for race relations, education and urban policy. This is a time for new ideas and constructive proposals from both sides of the House.
  First, there is the international dimension. The Government have consistently said—I think with some justification—that part of the problem arises from international reasons. They have said that unemployment is an international probem. All EEC countries have suffered from high unempoyment and high rates of inflation in the past three years. Indeed, the Leader of the Liberal Party said that to some extent it was outside our domestic control. It is true that the continuing recession has been caused to some extent by a fundamental imbalance in the world economy, but it is equally true that EEC countries should have worked out solutions together, particularly in terms of the question how to put to productive use all the excess money that has been shifting around from one international centre to another as a result of the imbalance to which I referred. The reverse has been true in practice. National leaders have withdrawn into their shells and looked purely for national solutions. That criticism is especially true of this Government.
  I turn now to the regional aspect of the unemployment problem. It is clear from what has been said earlier that this problem is concentrated in clearly definable areas—largely in the centres of big cities. Therefore, there is a need to direct resources in that direction. I doubt very much whether our regional policy does this effectively at the moment. For example, Ashfield has an unemployment rate of 4.4 per cent., which is well below the national average. However, it is an intermediate area for industrial assistance—I believe it is the nearest to London—and, in about a fortnight's time, the Secretary of State for Industry is to visit the area to plant a tree at a new Kodak factory which will employ 2,000 people.
  I am very pleased to see so many Ministers coming to Ashfield. Two weeks ago we had the Minister of State, Department of Health and Social Security, and on Friday we are looking forward to welcoming

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  the Minister of State for Employment, who is to open our new jobcentre.
  One result of the opening of the new Kodak factory in my constituency is that other firms are complaining about the loss of labour to the new employer, because workers are being tempted away by higher rates of pay. It is a crazy situation. Ashfield is an industrially assisted region which is not at the moment in need of that kind of help, but Nottingham, only a few miles away, has all the problems of urban deprivation.
  Mr. Leslie Spriggs: I hope that my right hon. and learned Friends on the Front Bench are taking particular notice of what the hon. Member for Ash-field (Mr. Smith) has said, because there are literally thousands of firms all over the country which should have apprenticeship training schemes but do not have them. They are taking from thousands and thousands of school leavers the opportunity to be trained in certain skills. Instead, the firms are literally poaching highly skilled workers to satisfy their own needs, and robbing other industries. The hon. Member for Ashfield is right. He should press his point home.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. My appeal for brevity also applies to interventions.
  Mr. Smith: The reason is quite clear. Contrary to what the Secretary of State said earlier, there is actually a shortage of skilled labour. I know this from working in my own engineering company and from what employers have said in my district. There is a shortage of the kind of skilled labour that is required. We have a skillcentre which is doing what it can to meet employers' requirements, but there continues to be a shortage of trained people.
  Finally, I wish to say something about the bureaucratic aspects of the proposals from the Manpower Services Commission on youth unemployment. We have had the Holland Report and the acceptance of its main recommendations by the Government, the youth opportunities programme and the special temporary employment programme. Now we have the MSC's discussion document which was referred to earlier.
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  I am pleased that the Secretary of State dealt with a number of points that were of concern to hon. Members on both sides of the House. First, there was the question whether the area boards would be too remote. I think that the right hon. Gentleman dealt adequately with that, although it would be good to see the involvement of young people in it. The annex to the document suggests 21 area units. As long as we are given the undertaking that there will be effective local involvement and control, I do not think that there will be any objection to that, I think that it will be accepted because we need to get some degree of accountability. Something referred to in the Holland Report but not referred to in the consultative document is the involvement of young people in those programmes, so that they would be relevant to the needs of the people concerned. I think that the Secretary of State has allayed our fears on that point.
  The question of training was referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Bedfordshire. South (Mr. Madel). According to the Secretary of State, there will be a requirement for 8,000 people to conduct training throughout the country. Apparently these people will be drawn from the present pool of unemployed. They are not at present working as trainers or instructors. In the short time available—a good deal less than a year —I should like to know how we shall find all these people who will be qualified to train and instruct other people.
  I wish to make one comment about the MSC Review and Plan. Paragraph 2.29 of the plan refers to the fact that the MSC does not wish to become involved in economic policy. It then says that by 1982 the Commission will have 29,000 staff and will cost £700 million a year to run. As the Secretary of State said, there are jobcentres. skillcentres and a tremendous amount of work in which the MSC is involved, but we must be concerned that it is the Secretary of State and not the Commission that formulates Government policy and we must have proper parliamentary control over the way in which this large sum of money is spent.
  We need an employment strategy to complement the existing industrial strategy. The industrial strategy is confined to manufacturing and may create

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  no new jobs. The Secretary of State accepted this, although he said that jobs would be created in other sectors, both in the supply of raw materials and in distribution. It is clear that any new jobs will be in service industries and, we hope, construction.
  The promotion of small businesses has at last been recognised by the Government as a potential area for additional jobs. Let us hope that these factors are taken into account and that the Government will produce a positive employment strategy to overcome the difficult period that lies ahead.
  8.11 p.m.
  Mr. Max Madden: The debates of the past few days have included numerous references to unemployment, and today's debate gives us an opportunity to consider the problem of unemployment in more detail. If nothing else, I hope that from the debate the message will go out to the people of this country that unemployment is structural and endemic, and will be long-term. There are no easy or instant solutions to reduce the level of unemployment substantially from that which we have endured in recent years.
  In this regard, it is useful to look at the comments made recently by Mr. Geoffrey Holland, the planning director of the Manpower Services Commission. The Minister who replies to the debate should tell us whether the Government accept the Commission's estimate that, as Mr. Holland said at a conference last weekend, 1,000 new jobs will have to be created every working day if unemployment is to drop to 800,000 by 1981. Mr. Holland said that to provide enough jobs for the young people leaving school by 1981, the Government would have to extend early retirement, introduce work sharing, or end the employment of those aged between 16 and 19. We should be told whether the Government accept that philosophy.
  I suspect that the MSC's work opportunities programme is not a temporary phenomenon but will be a long-term and expanding programme, embracing an increasing number of young people in the years ahead.
  I had hoped that the debate would give us some information about the Opposition's alternative policies for dealing with
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  unemployment. The hon. Member for Falmouth and Camborne (Mr. Mudd) asked what he could tell his constituents about the level of unemployment in the months and years ahead. The Opposition should tell us what are their policies for dealing with unemployment.
  I have some regard for the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior). I look back with some pleasure at a Sunday newspaper article that described him, some months ago, as a top Tory with friends in low places. The right hon. Gentleman has done much this summer to knock together wooden heads in the Tory Party and to give them some understand of industrial relations and the industrial realities of the world in which we live. We should be grateful to him for that.
  Unfortunately, we cannot be grateful for the right hon. Gentleman's speech in opening the debate today. We had from him a diverse ragbag of policies that could not be called a coherent strategy for dealing with unemployment. He commented on the need to deal with dumping. I do not grumble about people becoming converts, but many of us on the Government side of the House have been campaigning for many years for vigorous action on clumping—without the pleasure of the hon. Gentleman's company. I suppose that we should be grateful that he has at last caught us up.
  However, I should like to ask the right hon. Member for Lowestoft whether he believes that our ability to deal with dumping will have been helped or hindered by the fact that from 1st July, responsibility for dealing with dumping has been transferred to Brussels and the European Commission. If he feels that this will help us, I must say that I do not share his confidence.
  The right hon. Member for Lowestoft also gave us an interesting argument about the need to develop a regional policy. I entirely agree that we need a selective policy of backing science-based, high-technology industries that offer opportunities of creating wealth and expanding employment. However, the hon. Gentleman's arguments should be compared with the Tory Party's policy of smashing the NEB when they are next in power. The NEB is there to do exactly the job that I have referred to. I am

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  pleased to see its role being extended into the North-East and the North-West and I think that it should have a much greater responsibility throughout the rest of the country for identifying industries that need support and financial assistance. The conventional banking institutions and the money men have not shown a propensity to support these high-risk ventures, and unless agencies such as the NEB have the resources and the political will to do it I see no possibility of these industries being supported and offering increased employment.
  It is interesting to see the contradictions in Conservative policy. The Conservatives say that there should be new development within the regions and then threaten to smash the NEB as soon as they come to power.
  Many people have trotted out easy solutions for dealing with unemployment. One of those used most frequently has been the small business sector. I have enormous regard for the innovative qualities of small businesses. They can do many of the tasks that are necessary in the areas to which I have referred. But there are only 70,000 small companies in the manufacturing sector, and we cannot expect that they will provide a solution to unemployment. It is a fiction to pretend that they can.
  The comments of the right hon. Member for Lowestoft on the Employment Protection Act were at best equivocal and at worst aimed very much at the heart of the Act. Let the right hon. Gentleman and small business men recognise that there is nothing in the Act to stop them from employing people. An employee cannot make an application for unfair dismissal during the first 26 weeks of his employment, and if an employer cannot ascertain within 26 weeks whether an employee is satisfactory his competence as an employer leaves much to be desired. Those in smart circles who refer to the Act as the Employment Prevention Act should look at the provisions of the legislation. I hope that they will then come to a different conclusion.
  Among other suggestions for dealing with unemployment, we have had the argument about growth. I firmly support growth policies. Economic expansion is particularly important. But I would not
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  pretend that growth and growth alone will bring about the reduction in unemployment that we all want to see, particularly when I go to my constituency and see firm after firm operating at 70 per cent. capacity. That is a pattern that one can find in many other parts of the country. Again, it is a fiction to pretend that growth, and growth alone, will create jobs. The fact is that we can have substantial expansion without any increase whatsoever in employment opportunities.
  There are also those who argue that it is in manufacturing industry, and manufacturing industry alone, that the promise of jobs lies. That, again, is an illusion. I believe that we must see the structural changes that have been taking place within British manufacturing industry and recognise that these difficulties will continue whether or not the Leader of the Opposition trips across the threshold of No. 10 Downing Street.
  These realities will persist and the problems that flow from them will persist. Therefore, what are we talking about? We are talking about economic policies and the direction of those policies, and not about personalities.
  There are also those who argue that we could bring about a reduction in unemployment if only we could get investment. Again I would argue that modern experience tends to indicate that more and more investment is capital investment and not labour-intensive. That means a falling labour requirement, not an increasing one. I would also argue that increasing competitiveness in British industry is not all to do with unit costs; it has a great deal to do with improving the design of British goods, the quality of British goods and the delivery dates of British goods. To a large extent, certainly with regard to exports, price is not of overriding importance.
  The most important question that should be answered tonight is: what, in percentage terms, do the Government consider as full employment? Has full employment, and the definition of full employment, changed? If it has, for heaven's sake let us know, because to compound the folly of unemployment would be to mislead people as to what is full employment and when it will be reached, certainly on the basis of current policies.

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  We know that under the Chancellor's proposals expansion in a full year is estimated to be above 3 per cent. We know that the Cambridge School of Economics has been arguing that only if we get 5 per cent. expansion per year until 1985 will we reduce unemployment to below 1 million. We know that the Manpower Services Commission estimates that 1,340,000 new jobs are needed to reduce unemployment to 800,000 in 1981. The people deserve political honesty. They should be told what the definition of full employment is and when they can expect to return to it.
  As well as needing more economic expansion, more growth, more investment, more help for small businesses, more selective regional policies, greater economic investment, more help for the NEB and all the other measures that we have been talking about, we must return to public expenditure. We must face a situation in which there is an ability to reduce personal taxation. I should certainly like to see a reduced rate band. I should like to see much bigger personal allowances. But if we are not to fritter away the oil revenues we must ensure that they are used to regenerate British industry. They must also be used to restore public expenditure —not only in the interests of working men and women, by providing local services, but to ensure that there are opportunities for employment within the public sector.
  When we talk about public expenditure we are not talking about more and more bureaucrats sitting on their bottoms in the local town hall; we are talking about more schools, more houses, and more hospitals, and about improving the social wage for the working men and women whom we represent. I therefore believe that we need a coherent economic and industrial strategy if we are to win this battle against unemployment.
  Above all, we need political honesty. We need to talk to the people about the problems that are endemic within our economy and that we have been discussing in this debate. If the Labour Government do not do so, it is apparent from what we have heard from the Tory Benches this afternoon, and every day of every week, that there is no alternative from their side of the House.
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  These problems are complex and complicated. I believe that the solutions lie only in the hands of the Labour movement and the Labour Government. I believe that at some stage we shall have to return to planning. We shall have to return to a concept like George Brown's National Plan, or a Department of Economic Affairs, in order to take the levers of economic power and policy-making from the Treasury and to ensure that there is an independent economic agency that is not tied to Treasury orthodoxy. We shall have to develop a highly interventionist economic and industrial policy if we are to overcome these problems.
  We live in extremely difficult times. This debate, as well as previous ones, clearly demonstrates that solutions must be found. It is no good saying that only a tax-cutting orgy, in which the standard rate of taxation will be cut, will solve the problems. That, roughly speaking, is the central position occupied by the Conservative Party. I do not believe that they will solve the problems. I believe the sort of strategies that we have been developing and that we have been arguing for are becoming more relevant. We must return to those policies—planning agreements, the NEB, protection in the Industry Act—because I believe that they are major measures designed for the problems of the 1980s.
  We have the policies and the people to implement these measures. What is crucially necessary in that exercise is political determination. I agree with the right hon. Member for Lowestoft, who said that unemployment is a political issue. It is. It is the central political issue that the Government face. Whether they win or are beaten by that political issue will, I believe, determine the life of the Government. It will certainly determine the question who succeeds the Government. I trust and believe that we can be successful, but we shall not be if we continue with illusions and myths. Let us face the industrial realities and let us overcome them. That is only possible with Socialist measures and interventionist policies.
  8.28 p.m.
  Mr. Esmond Bulmer: The hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Madden) made so many points that he will not expect me to follow him into the details of his argument. However, I

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  agree with him that the problems are complex, though I do not agree that their solutions can come only from one side. It is refreshing to see at a constituency level how much more meeting of minds there is between all parties about the way to tackle unemployment, and I should like to see it reflected rather more in this House.
  I took some comfort from the fact that the Secretary of State for Employment echoed my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) in saying that without argument the task before this country was to achieve overseas competitiveness and that we had to be competitive. That is the point from which I should like to start tonight.
  The TUC has also, to the extent that it has endorsed the Manpower Services Commission's report, recognised this fact. I do not underestimate the difficulties for the TUC or the trade unions. We all know that the present Government have given great new powers to trade unions and that it is traditional for trade union organisers to use their power to protect to the limit the right of the individual worker to maintain low productivity. In some industries that is so, in others it is not. But there is a consensus among all our international competitors that one of the biggest obstacles to our recovering our competitive edge is our system of industrial relations.
  It is 13 years since the Donovan Commission was set up. Some of its recommendations have been enacted through the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act and the Employment Protection Act. I hope that many of those will now stand. But there is also a great deal of unfinished business—the reform of collective bargaining, the enforcement of agreements, the problems of multi-unionism, restrictive practices, picketing and the protection of the rights of individual workers in the closed shop. Many of these problems are extremely complex, and some of them are also highly contentious.
  It might be helpful to convene a reconstituted Donovan Commission so that at least there was a body, representative of both sides of industry and knowledgeable about the issues, continuing to seek solutions, which I do not believe can
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  be imposed from either side. It is a long, hard struggle.
  I would hope that a reconstituted Donovan Commission would point to what I think most people believe: that it is far too easy to strike and that the abuse of monopoly by labour is no more acceptable than it is by capital. When they return to their constituencies, hon. Members are very aware of public resentment at this time over the power cuts. The public have a great fear that the fire service may go on strike. I do not want to say anything that might exacerbate that situation. But the Government must understand that the public may put up with losing" Match of the Day ", although they are not pleased about it; they accept the loss of export orders and they will just, perhaps, put up with continuing inconvenience, but they will not put up with having the lives of their relatives put at risk. It is no solution to say that the troops can be brought in if matters reach a certain pass. The Government must be able to point to their seeking a lasting solution, and not one which is left entirely to the TUC.
  I know that there is a great reluctance to set up such bodies as Donovan. I fear that the Bullock Commission has made it even more difficult with its loaded terms of reference and partisan composition; these have undermined confidence to some extent. But I liked a letter in The Times when the terms of reference were first published. The writer suggested that the terms of reference should have been:
  " Accepting the need for a radical improvement in the effectiveness with which wealth is created and for a significant improvement in our industrial performance compared with that of many of our continental partners: how can this best be achieved, taking into account the needs of the national economy, employers, employees, investors and consumers."
  The Secretary of State could rewrite that as he liked, but if he would consider setting up a body that would look hard at why we have failed to invest, at our industrial relations problems and at how to improve our competitive edge, he would certainly have my support.
  8.33 p.m.
  Mr. Ron Thomas: If the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Bulmer) looks at the statistics, he will find that for every 1,000

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  workers we lose fewer days through strikes than do most of our industrial competitors. Secondly, the biggest strike we have had, which has been far more catastrophic than days lost through industrial disputes, is the strike of British capitalists, who have refused to invest in British industry and have invested in land and property speculation and have invested overseas or in commodity markets, currency or what-have-you. Thirdly, if the definition of a strike is "not reporting for work at the place where one should be ", the House of Commons has probably the worst strike record of any firm in any country.
  Before I come to the main amendment, to which I wish to speak, I should like to make a quick comment about two other amendments which are on the Order Paper. First, there is an amendment which regrets that we are not bringing the ports into public ownership. I should like to express my regret that we have reneged on our 1974 General Election pledge. Secondly, I should like to draw the attention of the Leader of the House to the amendment in my name which regrets
  " that the Gracious Speech contains no proposal to restore to cities like Bristol the functions taken away under the Tory Local Government Act, including education, planning and social services ".
  If we are to spend a considerable amount of time considering devolution to Scotland and Wales, it is a great pity that we cannot spend a little time on the kind of legislation that would give a bit of devolution to the citizens of Bristol and other similar cities who lost control of planning, education and social services under a disastrous local government reorganisation Act, which has continued to be used against those of us on the Government side of the House who have fought against the cuts in public expenditure.
  Mainly, however, I should like to address my remarks to the amendment on the Order Paper in the names of myself and of some of my hon. Friends which deals with the failure of the Government to give an undertaking that they will
  " restore the cuts in public expenditure, linked with more effective measures to reduce unemployment; and further regret that there is no mention of amending the law relating to trade
  778
  union recognition and rights, in order to prevent Grunwick-type employers from evading the intentions of the Employment Protection Act ".
  I take the last part first. I think we all agree that the Employment Protection Act has proved in practice to have considerable gaps. One area, clearly, is the proliferation of all kinds of bogus staff associations. That ought to be dealt with. The legislation urgently requires admendment. Another area is quite clear-cut. That is the Grunwick-type situation. I am critically disappointed that the Government have not said that they will introduce legislation to deal with the defects in the Employment Protection Act which have created the Grunwick-type situation and will not be introducing amendments to give far more power and authority, clearly established, to ACAS and other institutions set up under the Act.
  However, I am mainly concerned with the whole question of unemployment. It seems that we face a situation of economic indicators predicting the stark reality of over 2 million jobless in the months ahead. A spokesman for the Manpower Services Commission has suggested recently that there could well be 450.000 youngsters, straight from school, in the dole queues by the third quarter of 1978. Jack Jones has recently pointed out that at present about 700,000 of the unemployed are aged under 25.
  In my judgment, if one looks at a, detailed breakdown of the unemployment figures, one sees that it produces clear evidence of the bankruptcy of the present kind of Treasury orthodox policies and, indeed, the barbaric nature of the capitalist system. While imports of finished and semi-finished manufactured goods flow into Britain, there are about 350,000 workers unemployed in manufacturing industry.
  While I am all for training and retraining, I believe that quite often the bosses in British industry create the myth that they cannot expand because they cannot get trained workers. In actual fact, we have been in this kind of scene from about 1966 onwards. Between 1966 and 1970 we set up industrial training boards, big NEDCs and little NEDCs, this, that and the other planning council and goodness knows what. We are still saying that we are short of skilled workers.

  779
  At the same time as we see the clear need for hospitals, schools and other capital projects in the public sector, there are at least 300,000 workers in construction and related industries who are unemployed. Even at this moment almost 100.000 young people have left school to join the dole queues with their bright hopes and aspirations blunted. As my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery) has reminded me, it seems rather strange that we encourage youngsters to leave school knowing full well that they will not get jobs but hoping that they will get £9, or whatever it is, in supplementary benefit, but that if they stay on at school we cannot give them a penny. It seems a bit of nonsense that we are encouraging them to leave school sooner than they might otherwise do simply in order to get £9 supplementary benefit.
  In looking at the cost of unemployment in Britain, we do not need to be econometricians simply to take 1½ million unemployed and to suggest that if they were at work they would be creating about £3½ billion worth of goods and services a year. That is no very small figure. On that basis, we shall be losing at least £5 billion worth of goods and services. But it is not simply that. We are also paying them almost as much not to go to work. We are really talking about a cost of anything up to £10,000 million, and it puts into the shade the kind of arguments which the Treasury mandarins put up about the public sector borrowing requirement.
  I do not expect the Secretary of State to come up with easy and quick-fire solutions, but I suggest that from a Socialist Secretary of State we should be able to expect certain measures. First, we should be able to expect any kind of economic and industrial analysis to make the present indefensible level of unemployment a clear indictment of the British capitalist system. It is all very well for the Opposition to say that it is not an indictment of capitalism. if they are asked why, they say that unemployment is due to changed circumstances. That was one revelation that we have had. Others say that it was due to the fact that certain investment opportunities have worked hemselves out. Very well. Let us accept that as a reason.
  780
  So the capitalist system is one in which periodically we have investment opportunities, and when they have worked themselves out we go into depression and have to accept 2 million unemployed. Other Opposition Members give us no reason why we have unemployment. But I think that it is a clear indictment of the British capitalist system and an indictment of the kind of laissez-faire policies and the militant monetarism which have been pursued. That kind of" sunshine round the corner "mentality does not help us.
  Secondly, we should expect a Socialist Secretary of State to expose the myth which has been created by the Tories that somehow the unemployment is due to Socialist measures. Some of us have been sitting here week in and week out waiting for Socialist measures. The only suggestion which the Tories can make is that the Employment Protection Act might mean that some unnamed small business man somewhere will not take on new workers. That has been dealt with already. I add only that, if there are employers who cannot even meet the very limited provisions for job security and so on under the Employment Protection Act, they should get out of business. That would he my message to them.
  We should expect a Socialist Secretary of State to expose the hypocrisy and crocodile tears of the Tory Party, whose members want to cut public expenditure even more and who refuse to give their support to the Government in any kind of measure to protect employment.
  What is more, a Socialist Secretary of State can ask them, if the level of unemployment is not an indictment of capitalism, why there are 16 million unemployed in the Western capitalist world and why are there 6 million unemployed in the European Economic Community. Why is it that Western Germany, which has the lowest level of inflation, which has passive trade unions which co-operate with the Government, which has sent back hundreds of thousands of immigrant workers and which has a rate of growth of 3 per cent. or 4 per cent., still has more than a million unemployed?
  That is not the way for us. That will not deal with our problem. We do not intend to tolerate a million unemployed—[HON. MEMBERS: "We have more than

  781
  that. "] When I say "we ", I mean Government supporters who sit below the Gangway. We have never tolerated unemployment. We have exploited every opportunity in this place to try to get the Government to change their policies. At least the Opposition should be prepared to admit that.
  We should also expect a Socialist Secretary of State to say that, whatever mistakes they have made in the past, the Government now accept that it is a myth that simply to create the right kind of market and the right tax incentive environment will result in British capitalists rushing forward like nineteenth-century innovative entrepreneurs to reinvest in British industry. The Prime Minister of the last Tory Government gave them all that they wanted, and still the level of capital investment went down and they refused to invest.
  A Socialist Secretary of State should also say to his colleagues here "We also accept now what you said about the cuts in public expenditure. You said that they would not be transferred to manufacturing capital investment and exports and that there was no mechanism in the capitalist system to transfer the resources that we cut back in the public sector to capital investment and exports. You were right. It has not happened."
  Let the Government be big enough to say now "We admit that it did not happen." They said that they intended to cut back public expenditure in the hope that the resources could be diverted into capital investment and exports. They have not been. We have the ludicrous situation of one civil servant sacking people and another saying "Come along on Monday for some kind of job release scheme or some other palliative that the Government have devised."
  The Government should also be prepared to admit that the myth has been exploded that wage increases lengthen dole queues. What has lengthened the dole queues is the lack of effective demand in the economy and the fact that the trade union movement accepted stages 1 and 2 which made a considerable cut in effective demand. This has been an important element in the increase in unemployment.
  The Secretary of State mentioned overtime. I hope that he will tell us exactly
  782
  what he meant. He is right, of course, in saying that 16 million hours of overtime are worked each week. But I hope that he is also saying to the trade union movement "Negotiate with your employers tomorrow to give up that overtime, but you will still get the same level of earnings that you got previously." However, if he is asking workers to take a cut of £10 or £12 a week in their total earnings, we shall immediately get a cut in effective demand and in increase in unemployment. That may result in employers taking on additional workers, but it will not make any difference to the overall effect in terms of total unemployment. If my right hon. Friend is saying "Do not work this overtime, but you can still have the level of earnings that you had previously ", he will have the support of me and my hon. Friends.
  I know that the Chancellor has always rejected the unacceptable social and economic costs involved in deflationary policies, the use of cuts in living standards and unemployment as economic regulators. That is the sort of thing that we expect from Conservatives and it is what we continue to hear put forward by them.
  I hope that my right hon. Friend also accepts that many of us are fed up with sitting listening while more people join the dole queues and while we hear arguments from him about monetary aggregates. M1, M2, M3 and so on. It seems that we have more M1s and M2s than we have motorways in this country. It is not simply that we are fed up with continuous economic statistics from Treasury mandarins that are always wrong—the one certain thing is that the estimates are always wrong. It is not simply that the public sector borrowing requirement includes the £4 billion to £5 billion that we are paying to people not to work, or the massive handouts to private industry. It is that the Government have been gripped by this monetarist economic analysis which has about as much relevance as had those who believed sincerely that the economic depressions of the past were caused by sunspots. There were well-known economists who believed that.
  Surely, only a Socialist economic strategy now makes any sense. We should begin to implement our proposals in the terms of economic planning that were set out in Labour's programme for 1976. We

  783
  should strengthen the National Enterprise Board and we need planning agreements. Why is it that the Government have powers to stop employers making wage increases but are afraid of using their powers to make firms sign planning agreements? The Government should take immediate measures to bring about planned reflation and, at least, to restore public expenditure cuts. We need to deal with import penetration of finished and semi-finished manufactured goods, we need, strict control over the export of capital, and we should harness our overseas assets.
  We cannot defend sterling on a mountain of hot money flows. We should tell the trade union movement to get on with the job of looking after the interests of its members, free of Government controls. To suggest that this will lead to sky-high wage claims is nonsense.
  I agree with my hon Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Madden). Let the Government now come clean Let them tell us whether they have dropped the concept of full employment from their economic thinking. Let them admit that this is a crisis of capitalism with which they cannot deal without real interventionist and Socialist policies, and let them tell the trade unions that one of the biggest contributions they can make is to get a 35-hour week throughout British industry as quickly as possible.
  8.52 p.m.
  Mr. Marcus Kimball. I thank the hon. Member for Bristol, North-West (Mr. Thomas) for giving us the gospel according to the Tribune Group. It is only when one considers employment that one realises that the temporary euphoria about the nation's economic prospects is not justified. That euphoria at the moment has done no more than encourage miners, power workers and seamen to go for more than 15 per cent. wage rises over the last two weeks
  Pay settlements are the key to the employment position in Britain. Altogether, 350 phase 3 pay settlements have been made within the 10 per cent. guideline and that proves that the Government's unauthorised sanctions have been effective in many cases. But we have seen Fords settle for 12 per cent. and
  784
  the air traffic control assistants for 15 per cent. Unemployment now totals more than 1·5 million, and even with the mini-Budget, which gives us only a 3½per cent. rise in the GNP, we can see no improvement in the employment situation. The rise in the exchange rate will make the going even tougher for some firms.
  I wish to describe the serious situation in Gainsborough. In that town, 7·2 per cent. of the insured population is now unemployed. The figure for the East Midlands area is 5·7 per cent. Our high level is no reflection on the enthusiastic staff of our local employment office. They have a sound local knowledge. Can the Minister, however, do something to expedite the promised new jobcentre? It is high on the list of priorities, but we need it now, particularly since Gains-borough has become the receiving town for skilled engineering staff under the employment transfer scheme.
  We have high unemployment in the construction industry. If the Government want to help constituencies such as mine they must do more for that industry. The only way to have a more immediate effect on local unemployment is to do something to encourage house building. That has a high employment content and it can be started up quickly.
  I am grateful to the Minister concerned for the advance factory which is being built in Gainsborough, but I ask also for a promise that if and when the Department of Trade's local office finds a tenant for that factory we may have the go-ahead for another to follow on its heels.
  It is difficult to argue the employment statistics in certain parts of my constituency, because of the new county boundary and the fact that the Booth-ferry district comes under the Scunthorpe, Doncaster and Gainsborough offices. We need statistics to cover the Boothferry employment situation in order to back up an application for a grant from the European Development Fund for the industrial estate at Sandtoft aerodrome but we are hampered by the rigidity of the lines for the drawing up of employment statistics.
  If the Secretary of State will look at those two matters, I shall be very grateful.
  8.55 p.m.
  Mr. Martin Flannery: The hon. Member for Gains-borough (Mr. Kimball), who spoke so feelingly about the Tribune Group, knows far more about blood sports than he does about economics. I shall speak, as my hon. Friends have done, about unemployment, and I start by underlining what my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-West (Mr. Thomas) said. When the Opposition talk about strikes they would do well to remember what he pointed out—that the longest strike that we have ever had in our history has been and is the strike of capital. Unless the capitalists can be assured of massive profits, especially when a Labour Government are in power, they restrict investment in order to try to topple that Government and use the investment abroad, wherever the trade unions are weak, so as to get the highest profits, while pouring out patriotism by the imperial pint at the same time.
  The causes of unemployment are simple, yet they seem to present enormous complexity to the Tory Party. If there is an inability to buy back goods that working people produce, those goods will stay in the warehouses and not be sold, and the workers who produce them will be laid off. It is as simple as that.
  Therefore, unless sufficient wages are given to working people to buy back the goods, those goods will not be bought and more workers will be laid off. The solution to the problem of putting people back to work lies in making the economy viable by increasing the wages of working people more than is being done at the moment.
  I have heard all this debate, except for a few minutes, and I have noted how utterly barren the Opposition are of solutions to the problem confronting us. Not one hon. Member opposite, with the exception of the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior), has made any attempt to offer a solution, and all that he did was to talk of bigger public expenditure cuts. I challenge the Opposition, as I have challenged them time and again in the past. They have said that they want bigger public expenditure cuts, and nothing else, to solve the problem. God forbid that we should ever have a Government under Tory leadership, for if we did there would be strikes all over the
  786
  country because of their inability to grapple with the situation. That is what we should be forced to face—Tory hypocrisy, with promises, promises and promises of more unemployment as a result of bigger expenditure cuts.
  The solution is obvious to us all, and it is time that a Socialist Government attempted it. The solution is the restoration of those cuts and higher wages for working people. There is no other solution. If our Government do not do it, they will have no chance at the next election, because the propaganda machine is in the hands of the Tory Party will put out all kinds of wild promises to the floating section of the electorate, saying that the Tories could solve the problem, whereas, in truth, they could only deepen it, because they have no policy.
  Unless there is a trend towards bringing the unemployed back into employment before the next election, large numbers of our supporters will sit at home and not turn out to vote to return a Labour Government. The situation is now beginning to burst at the seams. There is a likelihood of even more strikes, because working people are not receiving the money that they are earning by working all day.
  As I say, the answer is to put money back into the hands of working people. Otherwise, we have no chance. The Tory Party thinks that this is too simple a solution. In fact, there is no other. I should like to hear from our own Front Bench, as well as from the Opposition, whether there is any solution apart from the one that I have just given, for there are many working people now waiting to hear it.
  I cannot, for example, understand the state of affairs in education to which my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-West referred. We are to induce young people to leave school at such a time as this by offering them about £9 social security, instead of giving a proper allowance to all children at school so that they can have something while they are there. We bring them out at 16 years of age and throw them on the scrap heap.
  There are now about 30,000 teachers who are not teaching. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science spoke about 5,000

  787
  teachers not teaching, but about 30,000 teachers are not teaching, and about 5,000 are totally unemployed. About 20,000 teachers are doing jobs that should go to other people. What kind of policy is that, if we want large numbers of children to be taught properly and to bring down the size of classes?
  Mrs. Audrey Wise: I am obliged to my hon. Friend for giving way—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I remind the hon. Lady that the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery) is hoping to resume his seat in a moment to allow time for the winding-up speeches.
  Mrs. Wise: My hon. Friend did give way to me. Is he aware that it would require the employment of a further 55,000 teachers to reduce class sizes to 30 pupils?
  Mr. Flannery: I am aware of those figures, and I expect a Labour Government to do something about them. Conservative Members may laugh when I talk about making the education system better, but they decry the system to an extent that is beyond reality. We need these extra teachers.
  I conclude by saying that unless the Government get working people back into work our chances of being returned to office at the next election will be remote indeed. I dearly want to see the policy that I have advocated being undertaken by the Government.
  9.1 p.m.
  Mr. Francis Pym: I shall do my best to wind up this whole debate, which has been wide-ranging, including the debate today on unemployment. We heard an important speech from the hon. Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux) and an interesting speech from the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) about the power workers' strike. I am sure that the House will be interested to hear any comments that the Lord President of the Council may make on that speech.
  I want to begin with today's debate, because unemployment is undoubtedly the biggest single blot on our landscape. It is a blot for the Lord President too, because in earlier years on the Back Benches
  788
  his passion was never so evident as when speaking about unemployment. From whichever Bench he spoke, whether from below the Gangway on that side of the House or this side, words flowed out of him as though he really meant them in denouncing the evils of unemployment.
  The right hon. Gentleman campaigned outside the House too, in both word and print, and it looks slightly like hypocrisy now. The right Gentleman is a magician with word:—I grant him that—but he has some explaining to do. For instance, in September 1968 he wrote that unemployment
  " has been higher for a longer period than at any time since the war … This is the most outrageous feature of the Government's domestic policy … It is a policy which some of us are determined to fight so long as we have breath in our bodies."
  In 1971 the right hon. Gentleman said:
  " Many of us in the House and many people in the country regard an unemployment figure of 600.000 as far too high and a total we are not prepared to tolerate."—[Official Report.3rd November 1971; Vol. 825, c. 203.]
  We know the history of unemployment since then and during the course of the present Labour Government. The figure now stands at more than 1½ million. We heard nothing this afternoon from the Secretary of State for Employment that could be said to amount to a solution. We heard nothing that could be called an employment strategy, as my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Smith) described it. What we heard amounts to a number of palliatives. The Secretary of State made a strong case for higher productivity. He made a speech the like of which is rarely heard from the Labour Benches. There was also a strong speech on the subject from my hon. Friend the Member for Harwick (Mr. Ridsdale).
  What we heard were palliatives. We welcome job creation schemes, we welcome training schemes too, but as my right hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) said, we do not want training schemes just for the sake of training. The point is that these measures are dealing with the symptoms and not with the causes.
  The Gracious Speech states:
  " My Government will continue to take action to reduce high unemployment through manpower measures and to promote industrial training."
  This is not a basic solution for dealing with the causes of unemployment. There

  789
  must be a drastic change in economic policy. We have had the beginnings of a change in recent months—undoubtedly due to the IMF. Contrary to what the Leader of the Liberal Party believes, it is not due to his influence. The Labour Government are not enamoured of making any change. They were in pawn to the IMF.
  The Lord President must tell us how he justifies his place on the Government Front Bench tonight in view of his support for the Government's economic policy that has led to such high unemployment. He once said that he was not prepared to sit in St. James's Square and preside over mass unemployment. He did not do so. He moved to the chair of Lord President. Is he happy there? He looks relaxed enough, and the passion he once displayed has gone.
  No Minister has made any great claims about this Queen's Speech, which is of a rather repetitive nature. The Government are still scarred from the mauling they had last Session when they lost three major Bills and were forced to make very substantial changes in other measures, particularly the Finance Bill, which had bigger amendments forced into it than any other Finance Bill. They also had the same experience with the Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Bill. They were not able to bring forward industrial democracy proposals because they had set up the Bullock Committee on such a ridiculous basis. No wonder they are so cautious this Session and making threatening noises to their supporters.
  I wonder whether the Government will allow a free vote on public expenditure proposals. They ducked it last year because they would have lost, and after a couple of Labour speeches that I have heard in the last hour my guess is that they might lose it again. But we should remember that this is a General Election Session, and pesumably the Chancellor of the Exchequer will fix it. The Queen's Speech is simply a diversion.
  We all know what is going on. This is an attempted cover-up operation. I say "attempted" because the Government's intentions are transparent. It is as if the Government are giving a tranquiliser before the General Election. When it comes we shall get the genuine
  790
  potion, and that will be a real Molotov cocktail.
  All that the Queen's Speech says, in the words of the hon. Member for Preston, South (Mr. Thorne), is "how Parliament will fiddle away its time ". That is precisely it—how Parliament will fiddle away time while the Government try to rearrange appearances in a desperate bid to reduce their chances of losing the next General Election.
  Most of our time this Session will be spent on devolution. That will be no help at all to unemployment in Scotland or the North-East. On 13th October unemployment in Scotland had reached 183,889, or 8·5 per cent. This is 500 up on the September figure. As the right hon. Member for the Western Isles (Mr. Stewart) pointed out, in 1974 the figure was less than half that. We are spending time on a second innings of the devolution Bills on a cut-up pitch. There have been some changes—impovements, agree, but not many. At least the Bills are now separate, and different proposals for Wales and Scotland can be looked at in an orderly way.
  We recall how the Lord President insisted that two different forms of devolution for two different parts of the United Kingdom could be dealt with in one Bill. Now he knows better. But, even with the few changes, there remain the many difficulties that worried most Members of the House last Session.
  The Prime Minister is quite right: I did want to have talks. I wonder why he refused to have them. We did have talks about talks, but they were not proper talks. I made that proposal nine months ago. Therefore, we could have had talks over the last eight months without loss to the Government's legislative programme. Why did the Prime Minister refuse to have talks? I will tell the House.
  The Prime Minister was afraid that that kind of conference might have come to a different conclusion. It might have come to different recommendations that would have been inconvenient to the Labour Party. Whatever else he allows to happen in his Government, he will not allow anything to happen that is inconvenient to the Labour Party. That is the new doctrine of divine right, with all the arrogance that goes with it.

  791
  The direct elections Bill is again a case of the Government handling a matter to suit their own party interests. Indeed, it has been handled in such a way, I regret to say, as to justify the uncomfortable description of "perfidious Albion ". It was deliberately withheld until it was too late to get it through. We pressed and pressed for it. It was not brought forward. The reason was that if it had been brought forward it might have got through. It could have got through. But, of course, the Government never intended it to succeed.
  That Bill will be reintroduced this Session. Whether "reintroduced" will be any stronger than "introduced" last Session remains to be seen, but it will be reintroduced without any of the urgency of devolution and without any of the importance of devolution attached to it. Devolution is so important that the Prime Minister talked, in opening the debate, of a fixed amount of time. Will there be a fixed amount of time for the direct elections Bill? "Never mind our obligations to our European partners or consideration for our overseas friends," the Government seem to say. If something does not suit the Labour Party, our international allies have to take second place. That seems to be the Government's foreign policy. No one abroad is deceived.
  There is a nasty new twist in the reintroduced Bill. Because of the Government's deliberate delay the choice, according to the Prime Minister, is an election for the European Assembly in 1978 on the basis of the regional list or in 1979 on the basis of first past the post. I think it is very doubtful now whether there is time on any basis to prepare for the elections next year. But taking the Prime Minister's position and giving him the benefit of the doubt, the regional list system has, as he well knows, many weaknesses, and it will be criticised in this House.
  The regional list system was included in the Bill only by Liberal request, together with an undertaking by the Government to recommend the regional list system. It was indeed recommended. I heard the Home Secretary make the recommendation from the Dispatch Box, and he did so with all the enthusiasm usually associated with the poisoned chalice, together with all the strength
  792
  normally associated with the free vote. Why the Liberals should so damage their own cause by settling for this brand of proportional representation in this Bill is beyond my comprehension. At any rate the Prime Minister has put it into the Bill and he is counting on the House to reject it and to opt for first past the post, which it almost certainly will. He will then be able to turn towards Europe with his beaming, avuncular smile and say "Do not blame me. I did my best. It was the fault of the House of Commons." He will drag in the Opposition as well, of course.
  No wonder this House is held in low esteem. At least the Lord President does not pretend to use his best endeavours, except to see that the Bill is not passed. I must say that so far he has been a good deal better at that than at getting, things through.
  The central features of the Queen's Speech are proposals for constitutional reform. Reform is indeed necessary. Our institutions are threatened and need strengthening. They are being asked to bear burdens and to take a strain much greater than they were designed to take. But it is a matter for profound regret that these reforms come forward at a time when differences and divisions in this House are so wide and when the party political struggle is so bitter. Unlike former times, the basic objectives of the two sides of the House are so at variance that it seems sometimes that they are irreconcilable.
  At the end of his speech the Secretary of State for Employment talked about extending the area of agreement, and I totally agree with him. The trouble is that neither his Government nor his party show any sign of doing so. The best solution would be if the Left half of the Labour Party went off to Russia, because obviously a lot of members of the National Executive Committee of the Labour Party are dissatisfied with life in Britain.
  There was a story about an Arab sheikh who was heard to regret that because of his responsibility to his own country he had to return. "I should like to be just an ordinary American ", he said. "and live in the Waldorf Astoria" —just as Mr. Kitson would like to be an ordinary Russian living on caviare and champagne in the Krelim.

  793
  The Labour Party's National Executive Committee has produced a policy programme which, if implemented, would certainly turn Britain into something like Eastern Europe. The nationalisation in that programme covers almost every industry in the British economy. A total of 39 sectors of industry would come under attack, involving the jobs of millions. If even one-quarter of the programme were implemented, it is hard to see how private enterprise could survive—which is exactly the Government's intention.
  The Prime Minister said that the programme was in essence the total sum of all their hopes—" their "being the Labour Party's voluntary supporters. In that atmosphere of political division, chances of harmonious, successful reforms are slender. Let us take the House of Lords, for instance. We wish to strengthen the second Chamber. The Labour Party wants to abolish it. The removal of the House of Lords would take away our only safeguard against Executive tyranny. It is not put forward as a means of improving government. The Labour Party's sole aim is to remove our last safeguard against extremism.
  The House of Lords was abolished once before by the Lord President's great hero, Cromwell. The House will also know that four years later the same thing happened to the House of Commons. The Government do not seem to mind—
  Mr. Heffer: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is no second Chamber in New Zealand, for example? Is he aware that many democratic countries do not have second Chambers? It is not necessary to have a second Chamber to create democratic constitutions. The right hon. Gentleman is drawing a red herring.
  Mr. Pym: The abolition of the second Chamber of this Parliament would remove the last bastion for the protection of the liberties of the British people. The Government are trying to force through their own schemes of reform because they believe that they will help them to cling to office. They seem to be prepared to twist any arms and pay any price to cling to power. They dress up their motives to make them look different, but sometimes they are caught off guard. For example, the Prime Minister told his hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) more or less to jump into the
  794
  lake. There is nothing very Baldwinesque about that. It is more reminiscent of the dog licence.
  There is a new imbalance between Parliament and the Executive to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann) has frequently referred. We are experiencing a Government who are giving their own party interest an altogether new degree of priority. It seems to some people that they regard their survival in office as more important than anything else. It seems to some that they are ostensibly making decisions on behalf of the nation when they are actually making those decisions on behalf of the Labour Party.
  To help them, the Government have a much enlarged public relations and propaganda machine. What is new is its scale, extent and back-up, which cannot be matched by the rest of the House put together, let alone by one party. The more that Parliament tries to control and contain the Executive, the more the Executive and the public relations machine try to wrest yet more power for themselves.
  Today we are subjected to an attempt at a massive cover-up which I wish to expose. First, it involves the level of pay increases. The line taken by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was expressed on 8th September when he wrote to the President of the Association of British Chambers of Commerce. He said:
  "if the increase in the nation's overall earnings in the current round is much above 10 per cent. we shall not get inflation down to single figures and indeed it is likely to start rising again ".
  The Prime Minister has said:
  "A 10 per cent. increase in national earnings means a lower rate of inflation in 1978 than we have enjoyed for several years. More than 10 per cent. means inflation will go up once again ".
  The Foreign Secretary has said:
  " Unless we can get a third round of the social contract, which keeps the rise in average earnings down to the rate of 8 or 9 per cent. … we are in danger of losing all the ground we have so painfully won ".
  We know from the Chief Secretary that if the rate of increase in earnings is as high as 15 per cent. we shall not get inflation down to 10 per cent. at all. All the Government's propaganda seems to be about keeping pay increases within

  795
  the 10 per cent. limit. I do not know the exact figure, but it is very much higher than that.
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: One hundred per cent. for certain Tories.
  Mr. Pym: The line constantly comes out from the Government that they are winning on pay and that pay has to be within the Government's guidelines. But we know that settlements are infinitely higher than that.[Interruption.] I also think that the same kind of approach is being taken on inflation. The message going out from the Government is "We are winning the battle; we are beating inflation and doing better"—[Interruption]—but where are we?
  Mr. Speaker: Order. It really is not fair when someone is addressing the House to have constant interruptions from a seated position.
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: I apologise, Mr. Speaker, but I was so incensed when I heard about —
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I accept the hon. Gentleman's apology.
  Mr. Pym: I think that there is a misleading message going out about inflation. The impression is being created "We are winning; it is going down", but it is still unacceptably high.
  It is becoming clear that the Labour Party's election strategy rests on two planks only—amnesia and low expectation. I think that the Prime Minister thinks that if the Government can persuade the British people to forget what the Government have actualy done, and also that our present economic ills are part of the natural order of things, he can just about see a glimmer of hope for Labour's electoral chances. Every time the most technical economic indicator registers even the most marginal improvement, the Government's propaganda service trumpets the news in terms more appropriate to the Second Coming, completely ignoring the fact that the real economic situation is about as bad as it has ever been in our peace-time history.
  I want to say in charity one nice thing about the Government, although I found it difficult to find one. I compliment the Chancellor of the Exchequer on his recent
  796
  rare instance of modesty when he told the Labour Party Conference
  " We shall lay the foundations for a Socialist Britain for years to come."
  Surely he did not do himself justice as the Chancellor who has increased the tax burden by £9 billion and the burden of public spending by £30 billion, and who has presided over an 82 per cent. increase in prices and seen the benefits percolating through the economy in a million jobs lost and an actual decline in industrial production. Having done all that, surely he can claim to have done more than just lay the foundations of a Socialist Britain. If that is the foundation, what on earth will the building be like? No wonder there is the crisis of capitalism referred to by the right hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey), because capitalism is being crucified. Yet we rely on it for jobs.
  Because of this appalling situation, we have to change the climate. The Government cannot do it because they are hamstrung from behind—in any case, they do not want to do it, they do not know how to do it, and they could not do it. Our first job is to ensure lower taxation of capital, income and savings so as to create more capital and get more jobs. We must ensure also that just rewards are received by those with extra skills and by executives, just as we must be fair to the lower-paid workers and everyone else.
  The biggest hypocrisy of all is the Government's talk about open government when they are the most closed Government we have ever had. They conceal what they are doing by pretending to do something else, rather like calling their cover-up open government. The truth is behind closed doors, and their trumpets blare out the story that they want us to believe.
  There was all this talk on Monday of law and order, when the Home Secretary said that the Government were fully behind the police, as though that were something new, while the Leader of the House loses no opportunity to try to undermine the judiciary. He thinks that a majority in the House of Commons is a substitute for the judiciary, which just shows what sort of a democrat he really is.
  The Secretary of State for Education and Science and Paymaster-General clocks off from her Department to join the picket

  797
  line at Grunwick just to keep in favour with the Left. Turning up at Grunwick is the symbol of the Left.
  The Secretary of State for Defence decides suddenly that it is his duty to set an example by going out and helping to defend the picket lines—presumably from the attacks by the police which are alleged by his hon. Friends. There he is, wide awake on the picket line but fast asleep with the Royal Air Force. I suppose that it is all part of the Government's good neighbour campaign. But if one has such a large army of public relations men, one will sometimes find oneself doing ridiculous things.
  The Government Front Bench is a collection of irresponsible con men. There is none of the nobility shown by one of the Prime Minister's highly respected predecessors who, for the sake of Britain's vital interests, was prepared to round on his party and said that he would fight, fight and fight again. What we have today is just fix, fix, fix and fix again. I have news for the Prime Minister. The electorate will fix him whatever he does now, whether he has devolution or not, and whenever he goes to the country.
  It took some time for the country to rumble the machinations of the right hon. Member for Huyton (Sir H. Wilson), but in the end people knew where they were with him, because they did not believe a word. I have a feeling that it may take longer with the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan), because the camouflage is rather heavier and I think that the skin is a little thicker. The right hon. Gentleman had his chance when he got to No. 10 to show that he was going to be a national leader—and, my goodness, we need one. Instead, he has confirmed that he is nothing more than a Labour leader. There is a book that the right hon. Gentleman is known to be very fond of called "Exodus ", which is a very good idea. I say to the Prime Minister "Put your cards on the table, if you dare, and go to the country. If all the news being pumped out by your Government's public relations machine is as good as you pretend it is, why wait?" There cannot be any reason to wait. Windy!
  The right hon. Gentleman's delightful bluff exterior conceals an indecisive man. This is no time for indecision or weakness. The Labour Party, under his leader-
  798
  ship, has got this country into too big a mess. I say to the Prime Minister, for God's sake go and let the people speak.
  9.27 p.m.
  The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Michael Foot): I should like to follow the remarks of the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire (Mr. Pym) on at least one matter. First, I shall comment on a few of the earlier speeches in the debate and shall come to most of the themes—if that is the right word—that the right hon. Gentleman used at the end of his speech.
  There is one matter on which I should comment at once. There has been some question whether my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister can work miracles. From the speech of the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire and his Biblical references, my right hon. Friend has certainly worked one miracle: he has abbreviated the interval between the Book of Exodus and the Second Coming in a manner that was never achieved before. The right hon. Gentleman should accept that at least.
  Before coming to some of the major matters, I turn to one or two of the earlier speeches, although several of the questions posed by individual speakers touched on very important questions.
  The hon. Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux) made proposals and suggestions about the security forces and the way in which affairs should be conducted in the Province. Of course, the Government will take account of the suggestions that he put forward. I do not propose to comment on them now. I do not think that that would be the best way to proceed. Of course, we shall take very seriously the important proposition that he put forward and, at a suitable time, see that a proper reply is made.
  Many of my hon. Friends have commented on different aspects of unemployment. It is natural that they should express their views very strongly. My right hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Sir G. de Freitas) spoke about the steel industry, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) spoke about the very heavy unemployment in his constituency, and my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Madden) commented in more general

  799
  terms about the report that we have received in the past day or two from the Manpower Services Commission.
  Following that report, my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby asked for an indication of the Government's view about full employment, and whether we had set different objectives. The Queen's Speech refers to the Government's determination to achieve the speediest possible return to full employment and I do not accept any new or varied target of what that should be. The present level is appalling in every respect. We must get back not just to the 600,000 mentioned by the right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire, but well below that before we can properly say that we have full employment.
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment said earlier—this is confirmed in the general statement of the Manpower Services Commission's report—that we and most other countries in the Western world are facing new forms of unemployment that cut much deeper and are intractable to many previously applied remedies. Of course that does not mean that we should not seek every possible way of dealing with it. The Government have said that this is their main objective, and it is set out as such in the Queen's Speech.
  I shall come back to the major theme of employment, which has naturally dominated the debate not only in the House but outside, but one of the services that I can perform for the Leader of the Opposition and her party is to see whether we can reconcile some of the differences that Opposition Members have expressed in the debate.
  Conservative Members have seemed to suggest that the way in which they would deal with these problems and unify and consolidate their party would be to pledge that never again would they take the sort of measures that they took between 1970 and 1974. I can see that that is an agreeable line for them to pursue. It would seem to unite at least some of those on the Opposition Front Bench. Their saying that they will never again take the measures that they took before has a natural appeal, and many people are glad to hear it.
  The problem for the Leader of the Opposition is that this statement does not
  800
  reconcile her with the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath), who takes an altogether different view of these matters. It is difficult to deal with the subject in the right hon. Gentleman's absence. I sent him a note inviting him here and I was thinking of adding "Do come. Margaret would love it so." Indeed, perhaps I did put that. Perhaps that explains his absence.
  If we are to unify the Conservative Party and perform the drama properly we must realise that although it is difficult to perform "Hamlet" without the Prince of Denmark, that is not the most pathetic tragedy of all. An even more pathetic tragedy is Juliet without Romeo, and that is what we have had to face in the debate and what the right hon. Lady will have to face in future.
  The right hon. Lady would be very much wiser to consider how she is to reconcile the major arguments that have been produced in this debate. The right hon. Member for Cambridgeshire was critical about our Bills on devolution. We shall have plenty of time to discuss these in the weeks ahead. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman is now very gratified to hear that these matters will be brought to a proper decision.
  I am sure the right hon. Gentleman is not too surprised to learn that we are not greatly enlivened by the proposals that he himself made on this subject. I am sure that he would regard me as prejudiced if I myself commented on his proposals. However, I quote what was said by Mr. Alan Devereaux, the Chairman of the Scottish Council of the CBI. who carefully examined the proposals put forward by the right hon. Gentleman. He said
  " I cannot understand quite what it is that the Conservatives are proposing and we cannot comment on vague outlines. There is a lack of precision in the proposals and I cannot focus on what they are saying."
  That is my position on the right hon. Gentleman's proposals, but we shall soon have a chance of focusing upon them to see whether they bear any relation whatever to what the Conservative Party has previously said on these matters.
  I do know what is in our own proposals, and I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that when we have the debate he will be gratified.
  When he was in Blackpool recently the right hon. Gentleman tried out the

  801
  speech which he delivered today. He had a great reception there. I fully acknowledge that. Summing up the situation, the chairman said:
  "I put motion 1217 to the Conference: those in favour, and those against. Carried unanimously—no, there are two dissensions."
  The two dissenters, I presume, were the right hon. Member for Sidcup and the previous Prime Minister, Lord Home. They are the two members of the Conservative Party who do know something about devolution, and I am sorry that their dissensions were drowned in the general enthusiasm at Blackpool.
  Let me come to the speech of the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph).
  Mr. Prior: Discuss unemployment.
  Mr. Foot: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that we should discuss unemployment as the main theme of our debate. I fully accept what the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) says. That is why 0I have come back to the major theme of this debate.
  Mr. Madel: Before the right hon. Gentleman goes on to the main theme, will he answer the point put to him by his hon. Friend the Member for Basset-law (Mr. Ashton) about the power workers? As his hon. Friend said, we are faced with a most damaging industrial stoppage on Friday. What is the Government's view on this matter?
  Mr. Foot: I fully accept that the country is faced with a most damaging industrial stoppage, and I believe that we must seek every means to bring it to an end. I believe that the Government will take account of the speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton), but I do not believe that the best way to bring this damaging stoppage to an end would be to discuss it in this debate. I do not believe that is the best way to deal with intricate, difficult industrial disputes and bring them to an end. I shall not take advice from any Conservative Member about how to bring to an end damaging industrial disputes, because we used to bring them to an end when they had been started by the Conservative Party.
  Mr. Michael Brotherton: Is the Lord President saying that the pre-
  802
  sent industrial stoppage has been caused by our party? If he is saying that it was started by us, he is telling the House a complete untruth.
  Mr. Foot: I never said anything of the kind. What I said was that I would not take advice from Conservative hon. Members or even right hon. Members about the way in which we should bring industrial disputes to an end, because I had succeeded in bringing to an end some industrial disputes that were started by the Conservatives. One was in February 1974.
  Let me come to the speech of the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East, who set out the general policy that is apparently the philosophical policy—if I can correctly so describe it—of the Conservative Party on the whole question of unemployment. I believe that his speech, like others that he has previously made in the country, is of extreme importance for the country as a whole, because, not solely under his influence but partly under his influence and partly under the influence of what Conservative Members may think is the course of events, the attitude of the Conservative Party on some of these matters has been greatly affected and possibly transformed. The right hon. Gentleman believes in the theory of perfect competition—
  Sir Keith Joseph: No.
  Mr. Foot: We shall have to work out how imperfect is the right hon. Gentleman's theory. Certainly, in his speech yesterday he sought to describe how every subsidy, every intervention, by the Government altering the normal operations of the market economy was bound to be counter-productive. The right hon. Gentleman almost argued, with a refinement that can hardly ever have been shown even by Friedman and company, that every job that might be created by the expenditure of money in one field by the Government would exclude somebody from a job in another field. He wanted to know what was the exact comparison in those two fields. [Interruption.] I shall come to the right hon. Member for Lowestoft in a moment. Let us deal with the two right hon. Gentlemen one at a time. I know that there is a difference between them, and I am trying to sort it out.

  803
  The right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East spent most of his time yesterday explaining that all expenditure of Government money was no use for dealing with these matters, because it distorted the economy and the proper operation of market economics, whereas the right hon. Member for Lowestoft in his speech today did not dissent in one particular from every penny being spent by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment on measures to assist in dealing with unemployment.
  Sir K. Joseph Sir K. Joseph rose—
  Mr. Foot: Perhaps the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East will now tell us what he thinks about the money that has been spent on the temporary employment subsidy—many hundreds of thousands of people have been kept in jobs by that ; what he thinks of the money spent on training services—this Government have spent more on training than any previous Government have ; and what he thinks of the money spent on regional policies. Perhaps he will tell us whether he accepts that all these policies are required and that he will not abandon them. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman wants me to give way after all, because he did not have the good fortune that I had of listening to his right hon. Friend support the Government on all these matters.
  Sir K. Joseph: I did listen to my right hon. Friend, and I heard him quoting the OECD report and saying that for every 10 jobs there are, so-called, created by Government expenditure through such things as temporary employment subsidy, six jobs are destroyed, my right hon. Friend said, somewhere else in the economy, and I say that perhaps it may be more than six. Does the Lord President really ask us to believe that the Government can tax and borrow in order to rescue some jobs without destroying other jobs elsewhere? Does he think that it is six, as the OECD says, or more as I say? Does he really deny that any jobs are destroyed?
  Mr. Foot: I certainly say to the right hon. Gentleman—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] I shall answer the right hon. Gentleman precisely if he will wait a minute. In direct answer to his question, I certainly agree that it is possible
  804
  to tax and to borrow to save jobs. So does the right hon. Member for Lowestoft, because that is what he said this afternoon.
  Mr. Prior Mr. Prior indicated dissent.
  Mr. Foot: Oh, yes. If there is to be a dispute in this matter—[HON. MEMBERS: "Answer.") I am answering the right hon. Gentleman's question directly. That question was whether I believed that it was possible to tax and to borrow and therefore possible to save and protect jobs. My answer is an unequivocal "Yes ". But we did not get an unequivocal "Yes" from the right hon. Gentleman. The temporary employment subsidy—"Yes "to that one. The money spent on training—" Yes" to that.
  I see that the right lion. Gentleman does not agree. Let us allow both right hon. Gentlemen to sort it out. Perhaps they should have a little sub-committee to sort it out between them. We know that they had a bit of a fracas before Blackpool, but we thought that they had made it up. I am sorry that they should have fallen out again.
  Mr. Prior: Why is it that Labour Governments have created 1½ million un-employed and a Conservative Government left 600,000 unemployed?
  Mr. Foot: I shall come to the further answer to the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East. There is a further reason why the right hon. Gentleman's logic in these matters, or his philosophy in these matters—whichever he likes to call it, and which I shall assume for the sake of this argument, applies to the whole of the Conservative Party—is defective. That is that the right hon. Gentleman is arguing that the unemployment in this country, and the scale of that unemployment in particular, is due to Government intervention in the economy. That is his argument. But how can it then be explained that in this same Western world there are several countries in which there is much less intervention and much more unemployment? Hon. Gentlemen shake their heads. The United States is one case, and Canada is another.
  How can the right hon. Gentleman explain it the other way round? How can he explain why there are some countries

  805
  in the Western world—I am not talking about Communist countries—where there has been more intervention than in this country, particularly in labour market measures, and much less unemployment, such as in Sweden, for example?
  These are instances that confound the right hon. Gentleman's theory. What he ought to do is to lake his lessons again from the right hon. Member for Down. South (Mr. Powell), because when the right hon. Member for Down, South expounds this full classical doctrine he does it as if it is an engine of history. When the right hon. Gentleman does it, it is a kind of Christmas toy with which he has become so fascinated that he cannot apply his mind to the real problems of the nation.
  Therefore, I say to the right hon. Gentleman and his friends quite seriously that when, in this debate and in the national debate, because unemployment figures must and should feature preeminently in that debate—we are not afraid of the argument—he and his friends, because he has now converted them, are called upon to say how much more unemployment they think the full application of these classical policies would imply.
  The right hon. Member for Sidcup came up against that fact in 1972 and 1973. We know that the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East is rather different these days. He beats his breast so fiercely and violently that we think that he has done himself permanent injury, but he has not yet confronted the right hon. Member for Sidcup. That is the point. Not one word of apology for his measures has come from the right hon. Member for Sidcup. There has not been a word of penitence from him, or a single spark of his ambition extinguished, and I honour the right hon. Member for Sidcup for that. There he sits,in absentia, bloody but unbowed.
  The right hon. Gentleman is, in fact, still the real leader of the Conservative Party. The Leader of the Opposition, for all her courage and personal appeal, follows in the tracks of the right hon. Member for Sidcup. She even had to go to Rome the other day to show what a good Common Marketeer she has become so late in the day—did she not? Now, she says that she will not talk
  806
  about these matters with the right hon. Member for Sidcup, but the right hon. Gentleman holds to his position, because he remembers what happened and because he believes that, if by any change of fortune, the Conservatives came back to power, the argument would recur. It would not be the theories of the right lion. Member for Leeds, North-East that would withstand the storm. They would be swept aside.
  That is why the right hon. Member for Sidcup stands his ground, and we should honour him for that. I am sorry that the right hon. Member is not here to tell us so, but he does it even more forcefully without being here. I hope that the Leader of the Opposition will tell us how she would reconcile some of these policies and the ones that she would present. I hear the right hon. Lady say that the right hon. Member for Sidcup is not even here. That is the kindest language that I have heard her use about him for the past two or three years. She is making a big mistake if she thinks that he is not here.
  I am sorry to have strayed into these matters, because I set out with the best hope of trying to unite the Conservative Party so that on these matters they could present a united front to the House and the country. Instead of that, all these old quarrels have broken out, precisely for the reason that the Leader of the Opposition and her right hon. and hon.
  Friends would not answer, in this debate, the very questions that they were putting to us. We answer the questions.
  Mr. Peter Temple-Morris: The Minister has referred to the Leader of the Opposition and has incarnated my right hon. Friend the Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath) several times during the debate. However, it is not the right hon. Lady who is always referring to that right hon. Gentleman but the present Prime Minister, who talks about resisting the National Union of Mineworkers. The same problems are here now as were here before, and what my right hon. Member for Sidcup did—backed by the present Leader of the Opposition—is now Government policy. Will the Minister admit it?
  Mr. Foot: We believe that in order to deal with unemployment that is more severe than anything we have known

  807
  since the 'thirties—and that is, in some parts of the country, more severe than has ever been known—a whole series of measures are required, many of which the Conservative Party is incapable of applying. Action must be taken on an international scale, and that is what the Prime Minister sought to do in the meetings that he had with President Carter and other leaders. We believe that particular action must be taken to deal with youth unemployment. That is why the Government have put forward the measures that were described by the Secretary of State for Employment this afternoon. They are better measures for dealing with that type of problem than any that have been produced in any other country in Europe. Even the right hon. and spluttering Member for Lowestoft did not utter a word of criticism of them in the debate. He may be seeking to attack them now, but he did not do so before.
  We believe also that there will have to be a great extension of the operations of the National Enterprise Board and of Government action. That is one reason why, yesterday, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry described many of the extended measures that were to be taken by the NEB, especially in the North-East and on Merseyside.
  We believe, also, that, as speedily as possible, we must have a proper reflation of the economy in order to do it. To achieve that, we have to ensure that the reflation can take place in a manner that does not recreate the kind of inflation that was destroying our economy. That, indeed, is the aim of most of the other countries in Western Europe besides.
  It is because we are determined to carry out those policies and because it can be seen that we are able to carry out those policies with greater support from the country than anything forthcoming to the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher)—(HON. MEMBERS: "What policies? ") I have already said what some of them are, and I have already described how the Government are determined to defeat inflation and how we
  are being a good deal more successful than ever the Conservative Party was. I have also described the widespread support that we have received in the country for doing it, and how we are determined to carry it through. It is precisely because the Opposition are so angry and irritated about what has occurred, and because they have seen snatched away the prizes that were stretching before them, that they have shown such antagonism in this debate.
  I say to the right hon. Member for Finchley that she should go away and prepare for many more Blackpools. She will have many more victories at Blackpool. So concerned was she about the unemployment problem when she last went to Blackpool that she did not mention it once in her speech. She had nothing new to say on the subject. She had nothing to declare.
  We propose to carry through the policies that we have described to ensure that we defeat inflation and carry through measures for the industrial renovation of the country. We believe that we will carry them through with greater and greater support from the country. It is precisely because that support has been forthcoming in such measure over recent weeks that the right hon. Member for Finchley and her right hon. and hon. Friends have been so discomfited.
  When the Leader of the Opposition next needs some assistance in these matters, I shall be only too happy to offer my services. Of course, I cannot offer her as quick a unity as that which we have, but I shall do my best to assist her in every possible way.
  We look forward to a lively Session. We shall carry through all the measures foreshadowed in the Queen's Speech. We shall meet again in 12 months. I hope that the right hon. Lady will have been able to reconcile her party's differences by then. In the meantime, I welcome her to the 12 months ahead.
  Question put,That the amendment be made:—
  The House divided: Ayes 272, Noes 299.

  Division No. 2]

  AYES

  [10.0 p.m.

  Adley, Robert

  Arnold, Tom

  Baker, Kenneth

  Aitken, Jonathan

  Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spethorne)

  Banks, Robert

  Alison, Michael

  Awdry. Daniel

  Bell, Ronald

  Amery, Rt. Hon Julian

  Bain, Mrs. Margaret

  Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay)

  Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham)

  Grylls, Michael

  Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester)

  Benyon, W.

  Hall, Sir John

  Mudd, David

  Berry, Hon Anthony

  Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

  Neave, Alrey

  Biggs-Davison, John

  Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

  Neubert, Michael

  Blaker, Peter

  Hampson, Dr Keith

  Newton, Tony

  Body, Richard

  Hannam, John

  Nott, John

  Boscawen. Hon Robert

  Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss

  Onslow, Cranley

  Bottomley, Peter

  Haselhurst, Alan

  Oppenheim, Mrs Sally

  Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown)

  Hastings, Stephen

  Page, John (Harrow West)

  Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent)

  Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael

  Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)

  Braine, Sir Bernard

  Hawkins, Paul

  Page, Richard (Workington)

  Brittan, Leon

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Parkinson, Cecil

  Brocklebank-Fowler, C.

  Heath, Rt Hon Edward

  Pattie, Geoffrey

  Brooke, Peter

  Henderson, Douglas

  Percival, Ian

  Brotherton, Michael

  Heseltine, Michael

  Peyton, Rt Hon John

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Hicks, Robert

  Pink, R. Bonner

  Bryan, Sir Paul

  Higgins, Terrence L.

  Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

  Buchanan-Smith, Alick

  Hodgson, Robin

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Buck, Antony

  Holland, Philip

  Prior, Rt Hon James

  Budgen, Nick

  Hordern, Peter

  Pym, Rt Hon Francis

  Bulmer, Esmond

  Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

  Raison, Timothy

  Burden, F. A.

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Rathbone, Tim

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Hunt, David (Wirral)

  Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal)

  Carlisle, Mark

  Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)

  Rees-Davies, W. R.

  Chalker, Mrs Lynda

  Hurd, Douglas

  Reid, George

  Channon, Paul

  Hutchison, Michael Clark

  Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts)

  Churchill, W. S.

  Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)

  Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex)

  Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton)

  James, David

  Rhodes James, R.

  Clark, William (Croydon S)

  Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'dW'df'd)

  Ridley, Hon Nicholas

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Jessel, Toby

  Ridsdale, Julian

  Cockroft, John

  Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead)

  Rifkind, Malcolm

  Cooke, Robert (Bristol W)

  Jones, Arthur (Daventry)

  Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

  Cope, John

  Jopling, Michael

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Cormack, Patrick Costain, A. P.

  Joseph, Rt Hon. Sir Keith

  Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire)

  Costain, A.P.

  Kaberry, Sir Donald

  Royle, Sir Anthony

  Crawford, Douglas

  Kershaw, Anthony

  Sainsbury, Tim

  Critchley, Julian

  Kilfedder, James

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  Crouch, David

  Kimball, Marcus

  Scott, Nicholas

  Crowder, F. P.

  King, Evelyn (South Dorset)

  Shelton, William (Streatham)

  Davies, Rt Hon J. (Knutstord)

  King, Tom (Bridgwater)

  Shepherd, Colin

  Dean, Paul (N Somerset)

  Kitson, Sir Timothy

  Shersby, Michael

  Dodsworth, Geoffrey

  Knight, Mrs Jill

  Silvester, Fred

  Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

  Knox, David

  Sims, Roger

  Drayson, Burnaby

  Lamont, Norman

  Sinclair, Sir George

  du Cann, Rt Hon Edward

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Durant, Tony

  Latham, Michael (Melton)

  Smith. Dudley (Warwick)

  Dykes, Hugh

  Lawrence, Ivan

  Smith, Timothy John (Ashfield)

  Eden, Rt Hon Sir John

  Lawson, Nigel

  Speed, Keith

  Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

  Lester, Jim (Beeston)

  Spence, John

  Elliott, Sir William

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)

  Emery Peter

  Lloyd, tan

  Sproat, Iain

  Evans,Gwynfor (Carmarthen)

  Loveridge, John

  Stainton, Keith

  Ewing Mrs Winifred (Moray)

  Luce, Richard

  Stainton, Keith

  Eyre, Reginald

  McAdden, Sir Stephen

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Fairbairn, Nicholas

  MacCormick, Iain

  Stanley, John

  Fairgrieve, Russell

  McCrindle, Robert

  Steen, Anthony (Wavertree)

  Farr John

  Macfarlane, Neil

  Stewart, Rt Hon Donald

  Fell, Anthony

  MacGregor, John

  Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)

  Finsberg, Geoffrey

  MacKay, Andrew (Stechford)

  Stokes, John

  Fisher, Sir Nigel

  McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury)

  Stradling Thomas, J.

  Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N)

  McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest)

  Tapsell, Peter

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Madel, David

  Taylor, R. (Croydon NW)

  Forman, Nigel

  Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

  Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)

  Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd)

  Marten, Nell

  Tebbit, Norman

  Fox, Marcus

  Mates, Michael

  Temple-Morris, Peter

  Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St)

  Mather, Carol

  Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret

  Fry, Peter

  Maude, Angus

  Thomas, Rt Hon P. (Hendon S)

  Galbraith, Hon T. G. D.

  Maudling, Rt Hon Reginald

  Thompson, George

  Gardiner, George (Reigate)

  Mawby, Ray

  Townsend, Cyril D.

  Gardner, Edward (S Fylde)

  Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

  Trotter, Neville

  Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham)

  Mayhew, Patrick

  van Straubenzee, W. R.

  Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Vaughan, Dr Gerald

  Glyn, Dr Alan

  Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove)

  Viggers, Peter

  Godber, Rt Hon Joseph

  Mills, Peter

  Wakeham, John

  Goodhart, Philip

  Miscampbell, Norman

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  Goodhew, Victor

  Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

  Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester)

  Goodlad, Alastair

  Moate, Roger

  Wall, Patrick

  Gorst, John

  Monro, Hector

  Walters, Dennis

  Gow, Ian (Eastbourne)

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Warren, Kenneth

  Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry)

  Moore, John (Croydon C)

  Watt, Hamish

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow C}

  More, Jasper (Ludlow)

  Weatherill, Bernard

  Gray, Hamish

  Morgan, Geraint

  Wells, John

  Grieve, Percy

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral

  Welsh, Andrew

  Griffiths, Eldon

  Morris, Michael (Northampton S)

  Whitelaw, Rt Hon William

  Grist, Ian

  Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

  Wiggin, Jerry

  810

  811

  Wigley, Dafydd

  Wood, Rt Hon Richard

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)

  Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton)

  Mr. Spencer le Marchant and

  Winterton, Nicholas

  Younger, Hon George

  Mr Michael Roberts.

  NOES

  Abse, Leo

  Faulds, Andrew

  Luard, Evan

  Allaun, Frank

  Fernyhough, Rt Hon E.

  Lyon, Alexander (York)

  Anderson, Donald

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson

  Archer, Rt Hon Peter

  Fitt, Gerard (Belfast W)

  McCartney, Hugh

  Armstrong, Ernest

  Flannery, Martin

  McDonald, Dr Oonagh

  Ashley, Jack

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  McElhone, Frank

  Ashton, Joe

  Foot, Rt Hon Michael

  MacFarquhar, Roderick

  Atkins, Ronald (Preston N)

  Ford, Ben

  McGuire, Michael (Ince)

  Atkinson, Norman

  Forrester, John

  MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor

  Bagier, Gordon A. T.

  Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin)

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

  Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd)

  Maclennan, Robert

  Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood)

  Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)

  Bates, Alf

  Freud, Clement

  McNamara, Kevin

  Bean, R. E.

  Garrett, John (Norwich S)

  Madden, Max

  Beith, A. J.

  Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)

  Magee, Bryan

  Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood

  George, Bruce

  Mahon, Simon

  Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N)

  Gilbert, Dr John

  Malialieu, J. P. W.

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Ginsburg, David

  Marks, Kenneth

  Bishop, Rt Hon Edward

  Golding, John

  Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Gould, Bryan

  Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

  Boardman. H.

  Gourlay, Harry

  Mason, Rt Hon Roy

  Booth, Rt Hon Albert

  Graham, Ted

  Maynard, Miss Joan

  Boothroyd, Miss Betty

  Grant, John (Isington C)

  Meacher, Michael

  Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur

  Grimond, Rt Hon J

  Mellish, Rt Hon Robert

  Boyden, James (Bish Auck)

  Grocott, Bruce

  Mendelson, John

  Bradley, Tom

  Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

  Mikardo, Ian

  Bray, Dr Jeremy

  Hardy, Peter

  Millan, Rt Hon Bruce

  Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

  Harper, Joseph

  Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)

  Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)

  Harrison, Rt Hon Walter

  Mitchell, Austin

  Buchan, Norman

  Hart, Rt Hon Judith

  Molloy, William

  Buchanan, Richard

  Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

  Moonman, Eric

  Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green)

  Hatton, Frank

  Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

  Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE)

  Hayman, Mrs Helene

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)

  Healey, Rt Hon Denis

  Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

  Campbell, Ian

  Heffer, Eric S.

  Moyle, Roland

  Canavan, Dennis

  Hooson, Emlyn

  Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

  Cant, R. B.

  Horam, John

  Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King

  Carmichael, Neil

  Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H)

  Newens, Stanley

  Carter, Ray

  Howells, Geraint (Cardigan)

  Noble, Mike

  Carter-Jones, Lewis

  Hoyle, Doug (Nelson)

  Oakes, Gordon

  Cartwright, John

  Huckfield, Les

  Ogden, Eric

  Castle, Rt Hon Barbara

  Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey)

  O'Halloran, Michael

  Clemitson, Ivor

  Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

  Orbach, Maurice

  Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S)

  Hughes, Roy (Newport)

  Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

  Cohen, Stanley

  Hunter, Adam

  Ovenden, John

  Coleman, Donald

  Irvine, Rt Hon Sir A. (Edge Hill)

  Owen, Rt Hon D, David

  Colquhoun, Ms Maureen

  Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford)

  Padley Walter

  Cook, Robin F. (Edin C)

  Jackson, Colin (Brighouse)

  Palmer, Arthur

  Corbett, Robin

  Jackson. Miss Margaret (Lincoln)

  Pardoe, John

  Cowans, Harry

  Janner, Greville

  Park, George

  Cox, Thomas (Tooting)

  Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

  Parker, John

  Craigen, Jim (Maryhill)

  Jeger, Mrs Lena

  Parry, Robert

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Cronin, John

  John, Brynmor

  Pendry, Tom

  Crowther, Stan (Rotherham)

  Johnson, James (Hull West)

  Penhaligon, David

  Cryer, Bob

  Johnson, Walter (Derby S)

  Perry, Ernest

  Cunningham, G. (Islington S)

  Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

  Phipps, Dr Colin

  Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh)

  Jones, Alec (Rhondda)

  Price, William (Rugby)

  Davidson, Arthur

  Jones, Barry (East Flint)

  Radice, Giles

  Davies, Bryan (Enfield N)

  Jones, Dan (Burnley)

  Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S)

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelli)

  Judd, Frank

  Richardson, Miss Jo

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)

  Kaufman. Gerald

  Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

  Deakins, Eric

  Kelley, Richard

  Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)

  Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

  Kerr, Russell

  Robinson, Geoffrey

  Dell, Rt Hon Edmund

  Kilroy-Silk, Robert

  Roderick, Caerwyn

  Dempsey, James

  Kinnock, Neil

  Rodgers, George (Chorley)

  Doig, Peter

  Lambie. David

  Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton)

  Dormand, J. D.

  Lamborn, Harry

  Rooker, J. W.

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Lamond, James

  Roper, John

  Dulfy, A. E. P.

  Latham, Arthur (Faddington)

  Rose, Paul B.

  Dunn, James A.

  Leadbifter, Ted

  Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

  Dunnett, Jack

  Lee, John

  Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock)

  Eadie, Alex

  Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)

  Rowlands, Ted

  Edge, Geoff

  Lever, Rt Hon Harold

  Ryman, John

  Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun)

  Lewis, Arthur (Newham N)

  Sandelson, Neville

  English, Michael

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Sedgemore, Brian

  Ennals, Rt Hon David

  Lipton, Marcus

  Selby, Harry

  Evans, Fred (Caerphilly)

  Litterick, Tom

  Sever, J.

  Evans, loan (Aberdare)

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South)

  Ewing, Harry (Stirling)

  Loyden, Eddie

  Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert

  812

  813

  Shore, Rt Hon Peter

  Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)

  Wellbeloved, James

  Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)

  Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)

  White, James (Pollok)

  Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)

  Thorne, Stan (Preston South)

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Sillars, James

  Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)

  Whitlock, William

  Silverman, Julius

  Tierney, Sydney

  Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

  Skinner, Dennis

  Tinn, James

  Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)

  Small, William

  Tomlinson, John

  Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)

  Smith, John (N Lanarkshire)

  Tomney, Frank

  Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford)

  Spearing, Nigel

  Torney, Tom

  Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington)

  Spriggs, Leslie

  Tuck, Raphael

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Stallard, A. W.

  Urwin, T. W.

  Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton)

  Steel, Rt Hon David

  Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.

  Wilson, William (Coventry SE)

  Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham)

  Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)

  Wise, Mrs Audrey

  Stoddart, David

  Wainwright, Richard (Colne V)

  Woodall, Alec

  Stott, Roger

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Woof, Robert

  Strang, Gavin

  Walker, Terry (Kingswood)

  Wrigglesworth, Ian

  Strauss, Rt Hon G. R.

  Ward, Michael

  Young, David (Bolton E)

  Summerskill, Hon Or Shirley

  Watkins, David

  Swain, Thomas

  Watkinson, John

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

  Weetch, Ken

  Mr. Peter Snape and

  Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

  Weitzman, David

  Mr Frank R. White.

  Question accordingly negatived.
  Main Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, as follows:
  Most Gracious Sovereign,
  We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament.
  To he presented by Privy Councillors or Members of Her Majesty's Household.

  RAF STATION, BIGGIN HILL
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mrs. Ann Taylor.]
  10.23 p.m.
  Mr. Ivor Stanbrook: The RAF station at Biggin Hill is in my constituency and some of my constituents are affected by its closure. But it is not as a constituency matter that I raise this problem tonight. Indeed, it is one of national importance.
  Biggin Hill is the most famous fighter airfield in the world. It was founded in 1917 as a wireless research station, and it guarded the southern approach to London. Before the end of the First World War many enemy aircraft had been shot down by fighters operating from it. By the end of the Second World War no fewer than 1,600 enemy aircraft from Hitler's Luftwaffe were destroyed by Spitfires and Hurricanes operating from what is known as "Biggin on the Bump ".
  The greatest aces of the Battle of Britain flew from there—Michael Crossley, "Sailor" Malan, Mungo Park, Alan Deere. Rene Mouchette, Max Aitken lnd Brian Kingcombe, among others.
  The Free French Air Force, the United States "Eagle Squadron and the Commonwealth Air Forces all flew from Biggin Hill, and 453 pilots from 11 nations died in sorties undertaken from there.
  But it was not only the pilots who made Biggin Hill's reputation. The ground staff worked tirelessly to keep the aircraft airworthy. The Women's Auxiliary Air Force at Biggin Hill won half of all the WAAF military medals won during the Second World War. Local air cadets, drawn from Air Training Corps squadrons from neighbouring villages, gave their efforts, and the local civilian population provided the civilian services and the background and social support which were essential to the efforts of the young men who actually led in the Battle of Britain.
  The fame of what was achieved during the Battle of Britain by the Royal Air Force at Biggin Hill is undying. Until this year the Battle of Britain Day at
  816
  Biggin Hill—the Royal Air Force's Open Day in September—was the greatest event in the annual flying calendar. The flying displays there exceeded the pre-War shows at Hendon, and its attraction for the people of London was such that they flocked to Biggin Hill in their thousands on the RAF Open Day. The Royal Air Force Benevolent Fund profited enormously from those events.
  Naturally, with the changing needs of our defence strategy, the day had to come when Biggin Hill, so close to metropolitan London, was no longer suitable for use as an operational base for front-line aircraft of the Royal Air Force. When Fighter Command moved out in 1959 the Flying Training Command moved in and erected in 1962 the Officers and Aircrew Selection Centre, within a physical and historical environment which continues to instil into the cadets who seek to enter the Service the high traditions of the Royal Air Force.
  The airfield itself passed into civilian hands and is now owned by the London borough of Bromley as a very busy civil airport, but it is still used on occasions by operational aircraft of the Royal Air Force. It has been the base of the Red Arrows when they have had flying engagements elsewhere, and until this year it was taken over completely by the Royal Air Force once a year for the purposes of of the Battle of Britain Day.
  The Royal Air Force station continues to occupy almost all the buildings, the hangars and the residential quarters. It also uses the officers' mess and maintains the memorial chapel opposite, which was built entirely by public subscription. The Officers and Aircrew Selection Centre, which occupies the station, has continued since 1962 to do its excellent work, providing the skilful and thorough vetting of candidates that we need if we are to maintain the high quality of Royal Air Force aircrew and officers. The tests are somewhat more sophisticated than those I went through at its predecessor some 35 years ago. The need for a high standard is obvious when one considers the higher technical knowledge and skill that is demanded of all officers—particularly the fighter pilots—and the huge cost of training them. We cannot afford the wastage of any recruits who successfully pass through Biggin Hill.

  817
  The Government have hazarded the efficiency of the Royal Air Force by their cuts in defence expenditure. In their arbitrary fashion, heedless of the risk that they were taking with the efficiency and morale of the Forces and paying more regard to their left wing, the Government called for economies within days of their coming to power in 1974.
  The Ministry of Defence then demanded of the Royal Air Force Board that the RAF should contribute substantially to the economies. It was decided that this could be achieved by the closure of 12 RAF stations, including Biggin Hill.
  One can ask almost any senior serving officer, of whatever branch or rank of the Armed Forces, and he would tell one privately that Government defence cuts have seriously impaired the operational efficiency of the Armed Forces. However, the political masters insisted on cuts, and the three Services have been forced to think up ideas for economies which they hope will do the minimum damage whilst satisfying the requirements of the politicians.
  We must not blame the Air Force Board. It thought it had no choice; it simply responded to political pressure. Some operations have been completely closed. In other cases the Board is trying to compress the same number of units into fewer stations.
  It may be possible to economise on RAF expenditure by closing down some stations completely once one accepts that our defence capability must accept cuts as do the social services. However, at Biggin Hill the Royal Air Force is doing a job that it must continue to do. The demand for aircrew trainees has recently increased, as I learned from my recent tour of RAF flying training stations.
  Briefly, in 1980 the Ministry intends to move the Officers and Aircrew Selection Centre out of its existing purpose-built accommodation at Biggin Hill into already overcrowded premises at RAF Station, Bentley Priory. The Ministry claims that money will be saved by sharing the support services of a bigger station embracing a number of other units. As yet no suitable buildings are available for the centre at Bentley Priory. Money will have to be spent rather than saved by building there and abandoning the excellent accommodation at Biggin Hill.
  818
  The present Commandant at Bentley Priory is an excellent officer. We were once fortunate to have him at Biggin Hill. However, even he cannot solve the problem of accommodating the centre and saving money for the Government.
  In any event it is short-sighted for the Ministry to move the centre. At Biggin Hill we have a viable RAF station with buildings, hangars and equipment available for use, including a purpose-built unit headquarters. There are 184 married quarters. Some of their occupants do not work at the centre but work at the Ministry of Defence in London. All those people and their families will have to be rehoused if the RAF leaves Biggin Hill and forces those quarters to become empty.
  Rather than close Biggin Hill, the RAF could use it more intensively within the existing policy of having more units at one RAF station. If some of the buildings there are not being fully utilised, there are many other Service and quasi-Service organisations geared to use them. There is, for instance, the chaplains school, a small clutch of clerics who we are told are moving to Biggin Hill soon. We shall be glad to welcome them there as soon as possible. But they will be no substitute for a real—that is, a temporal—RAF presence, whatever spiritual assets they may bring.
  I suggested to the Minister once that Biggin Hill should be considered with a view to accommodating the RAF Museum at Hendon, with its equipment and exhibits. But he tells me that it does not need a branch south of London. That is a great pity, and it is probably wrong. The facilities available at Biggin Hill are ideal for the purposes of the museum. The fame of the place would draw thousands of pilgrims to a museum there. Hundreds of visitors already come every year from all over the world, eager to catch a glimpse of Biggin Hill's glorious past.
  A little imagination and a rearrangement perhaps of the accommodation, and we could have an attraction at Biggin Hill which would stir the hearts of our young people and earn thousands of pounds for the Royal Air Force Benevolent Fund. If the RAF Museum at Hendon will not take on the job, private citizens will, because there is already a Battle of Britain museum housed at

  819
  Chilham Castle in Kent. It has hundreds of exhibits and momentoes of the battle. They have been contributed by private citizens. They could be much better displayed in a hangar at Biggin Hill, to the great advantage of the Royal Air Force charity. There are also the local Air Training Corps and the RAF Association, both strongly supported as one might think, who are anxious to play a part in maintaining both the physical presence and the spirit and traditions of the Royal Air Force at Biggin Hill.
  Finally, there is the petition now being raised locally among the civilian population of Biggin Hill and district asking the Government to keep the RAF there. It has already been signed by more than 1,000 people, and all who see it are eager to sign it.
  Yesterday evening in the "Nationwide" programme the BBC gave an account of this affair which almost wholly ignored the case for keeping the RAF at Biggin Hill. I hope that I have impressed upon the Minister this evening not only the false economy in moving it and the desirability of keeping it there and using the site to even better purpose. but the immense strength of local and national feeling against the whole idea.
  I have a good deal of personal respect for the Minister. To me he is of good character. His heart, at any rate, is in the right place on Service matters. I have had only one occasion—that was when he flirted with the Troops Out campaign—to suspect his good judgment. We who knew RAF Biggin Hill and its potentialities are putting that judgment to the test. To close down Britain's most famous and glorious RAF station would be an act of pure folly. I implore the Minister not to do it.
  10.35 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Royal Air Force (Mr. James Wellbeloved): I welcome this opportunity to put on record the facts about the decision regarding Royal Air Force Biggin Hill and to inform the House and the public of our future plans for the station.
  I congratulate the hon. Member for Orpington (Mr. Stanbrook) on his success in getting this Adjournment debate, and I recognise the strong feeling in the area of
  820
  Biggin Hill about the future of the station. That is typified by the rare occurrence this evening of a number of hon. Members who have stayed to hear the hon. Gentleman's speech.
  I recognise that the hon. Gentleman has reflected his constituents' views quite properly and forcibly. I fully understand the feeling in the area, because, as I have told the House before, as a young boy I witnessed with pride and deep emotion many of the air battles that took place in our skies over metropolitan Kent and South-East London during those grim and dangerous days in 1940. I recall with pride Prime Minister Churchill's tribute to the Few. His words reflected the views of the then national coalition Government and also the views of the united people of this country.
  The Battle of Britain is without doubt a major battle honour for the Royal Air Force. Only yesterday I attended the launching of the appeal fund for the Battle of Britain Museum at which Group Captain Sir Douglas Bader spoke. He reminded the audience that it was the whole of the RAF which won that battle: Bomber Command, in its valiant efforts to destroy the barges being assembled for the invasion of Britain ; the Observer Corps, which plotted the enemy air forces coming into this country ; the ground crews at Biggin Hill and other historic stations, who kept those aircraft flying in a combat condition, despite the vicious and heavy attacks that were made upon airfields ; and, of course, the women in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force, who displayed such gallantry in all their efforts.
  It is worth drawing the attention of the House to the sentiments expressed by Douglas Bader. Those heroic weeks in the history of our nation were fought, and the battle was won, by the blood and the guts and the dedication of the men and women of the Royal Air Force. We seek to honour that dedication and sacrifice for all time by the establishment of the Battle of Britain Museum. This week the appeal fund has been launched to provide at Hendon, adjacent to the existing RAF Museum, a new building capable of holding a representative collection of the aircraft that fought in that battle and to bring together a collection of Service equipment, of relics, of medals, of documents, of uniforms and works of art associated with that period.

  821
  The trustees of the RAF Museum have set up an appeal committee. under the chairmanship of Group Captain Sir Douglas Bader, composed of distinguished men and women. I am particularly glad to see in the House tonight my hon. Friend the Member for Horn-church (Mr. Williams), who is a member of that appeal committee and the representative of a constituency which housed another very famous RAF station during the Battle of Britain—RAF Hornchurch —from which, in 1940, Spitfires were flying and engaging the enemy in the same manner as those which flew from RAF Biggin Hill. Indeed, Group Captain Bader flew from Hornchurch and fought in that battle.
  The appeal committee seeks to raise £2 million. It is my view that this appeal provides an opportunity for the people of this country to express in a practical manner their thanks for the deliverance that was made possible by the heroic action of the RAF in the Battle of Britain.
  I owe it to the hon. Member for Orpington to reply to some of the points that he made in the debate. The Officers and Aircrew Selection Centre is to move to RAF Bentley Priory, which is also a station of considerable historic importance. It was the headquarters of Fighter Command during the Second World War. In addition to the OASC, other elements will be located there, including the directorate of recruiting and the inspectorate of recruiting. These changes of location will carry cost-effective benefits for defence expenditure and for the organisation, selection and recruitment of airmen generally.
  The Air Force Board is aware of the problem of maintaining manpower levels when the RAF requires several thousand recruits a year. The high standard of professionalism in the RAF requires an equally high standard of recruit. Great care is exercised in the selection of aircrew in an endeavour to ensure that young men coming into the RAF have the motivation and ability to respond to the intensive training requirements for the operation of a complex modern aircraft and weapons system.
  I can assure hon. Members that the Board is fully alive to this task and is constantly reviewing and improving methods of selection and training. Young
  822
  men, perhaps inspired by the history of the Battle of Britain, who seek a worthwhile career and an honourable and exciting profession will find it in the RAF, and the location of the OASC does not detract from that.
  Biggin Hill's link with the RAF will be retained. The area containing the officers' mess and the memorial chapel will be retained, as will the Spitfire and the Hurricane that guard the station's gates. The RAF Chaplains School will be moved to Biggin Hill, and this will enable the memorial chapel to be looked after in a proper fashion.
  The decision on Biggin Hill has not been easy, and much careful thought has been given to all the factors involved. The part that the station played in the development of the RAF and particularly its valiant place in the history of the Battle of Britain cannot be forgotten, but military aviation is a living and changing environment.
  The sophistication of aircraft equipment, the skills and knowledge required by pilots, the technical expertise of ground support personnel, the selection and the training of personnel, let alone the basic rúles of the RAF, can all change as the RAF develops to meet the changing threat presented by potential enemies and the challenges that rapid technological advances present to a modern air force.
  The traditions of professional dedication and courage of succeeding generations of men and women who have served this country in the RAF are a sure foundation upon which the RAF can build. We remember and honour the men and women who fought and died with the squadrons from Biggin Hill and, indeed, all RAF stations, but history must be an inspiration to, and not a brake on, the development and progress of our Fighting Services and it is right that we should continue to pursue decisions that are the result of such long and careful consideration and are in the long-term interests of the RAF and the defence of this country.
  We shall maintain a presence at Biggin Hill, and it is right and proper that it should have a continuing link with the RAF. That is the spirit in which I reply to the debate. I commend the Air

  823
  Force Board's proposals for relocation in the knowledge that they are in the best interests of the RAF.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at sixteen minutes to Eleven o'clock.

CIVIL SERVICE
  Pay Research Unit
  Pay Research Unit
  Ministerial Visits Overseas
  Ministerial Visits Overseas
  STATUTES
  STATUTES
  CRIME (ROYAL COMMISSION)
  CRIME (ROYAL COMMISSION)
INDUSTRY
  Communications Systems (European Community)
  Communications Systems (European Community)
  Energy Thrift Committee
  Energy Thrift Committee
  Telephone Kiosks
  Telephone Kiosks
PRICES AND CONSUMER PROTECTION
  Medicines
  Medicines
EMPLOYMENT
  School Leavers (Manchester)
  School Leavers (Manchester)
  Merseyside
  Merseyside
  Part-time Workers
  Part-time Workers
  Merseyside
  Merseyside
  Hull and Goole Docks
  Hull and Goole Docks
ENERGY
  Electricity Supply (Dispute)
  Electricity Supply (Dispute)
  Coal Mining
  Coal Mining
OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT
  Mozambique
  Mozambique
  Falkland Islands
  Falkland Islands
DEFENCE
  Training (Foreign Personnel)
  Training (Foreign Personnel)
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  University Teachers (Pay)
  University Teachers (Pay)
  Elton Collection
  Elton Collection
  Youth Service
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  School Curricula
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HOME DEPARTMENT
  Children Act 1975
  Children Act 1975
  Transcendental Meditation
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  Public Services (Pay)
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  Alsatian Dogs
  Alsatian Dogs
  Terrorism Prevention
  Terrorism Prevention
  Crime (Investigations)
  Crime (Investigations)
SOCIAL SERVICES
  Doctors (Brent)
  Doctors (Brent)
  Trasicor (Oxprenolol)
  Trasicor (Oxprenolol)
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  Disabled Persons (Vehicles)
  Anaesthetists (Pay)
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  Ear, Nose and Throat Hospital, Liverpool
  Ear, Nose and Throat Hospital, Liverpool
  Mr. Joseph Hyland
  Mr. Joseph Hyland
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  Doctors (Dispensing)
  Doctors (Dispensing)
  Spectacles and Dentures
  Spectacles and Dentures
  Drugs (Misuse)
  Drugs (Misuse)
  Departmental Expenditure
  Departmental Expenditure
  Invalidity Benefit Recipients
  Invalidity Benefit Recipients
TRADE
  Commodities Common Fund Negotiations
  Commodities Common Fund Negotiations
  Peachey Property Corporation Ltd.
  Peachey Property Corporation Ltd.
  Beef Producers
  Beef Producers
  Cattle Exports (Monetary Compensatory Amounts)
  Cattle Exports (Monetary Compensatory Amounts)
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Meat Exports
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  Fishing Grounds (Falklands and Antarctic)
  Fishing Grounds (Falklands and Antarctic)
  European Community Ministers (Meeting)
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  Chemicals Packaging (Notification Scheme)
  Chemicals Packaging (Notification Scheme)
ENVIRONMENT
  Broad Sanctuary, Westminster
  Broad Sanctuary, Westminster
  Local Government Staff
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  Disabled Persons
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  Local Government Expenditure
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  Wisley Airfield
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  Construction Industry
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  Radio Masts
  Radio Masts
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  Manchester Ship Canal
  Housing Stock
  Housing Stock
TRANSPORT
  Disabled Motorists (Parking Badges)
  Disabled Motorists (Parking Badges)
  Shipping (Freight Rates)
  Shipping (Freight Rates)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  £ Sterling
  £ Sterling
  Meat Imports
  Meat Imports
  James Mackie and Sons, Belfast
  James Mackie and Sons, Belfast
  Overseas Earnings (Manufacturing)
  Overseas Earnings (Manufacturing)
  Part-time Workers
  Part-time Workers
  Smithfield Porters
  Smithfield Porters
  Taxation and Social Security Contributions
  Taxation and Social Security Contributions
  Income Tax
  Income Tax
  Computers
  Computers
  Public Expenditure
  Public Expenditure
  Public Sector Borrowing Requirement
  Public Sector Borrowing Requirement
  Personal Incomes
  Personal Incomes
  Field Marshal Lord Carver
  Field Marshal Lord Carver
SCOTLAND
  List D Schools
  List D Schools
  Children's Panels
  Children's Panels
WALES
  Building Contracts
  Building Contracts
  A525 (Denbigh)
  A525 (Denbigh)
  A55
  A55
  Rents and Incomes
  Rents and Incomes
  A5 (Llangollen)
  A5 (Llangollen)
  Pig Industry
  Pig Industry
  Ruthin, Clwyd
  Ruthin, Clwyd
  House Building
  House Building
  Housing Stock
  Housing Stock
  Employment
  Employment
FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
  British Broadcasting Corporation
  British Broadcasting Corporation
  Southern Africa
  Southern Africa
  USSR
  USSR
  Cambodia
  Cambodia
  Belize
  Belize
  Japan (Foreign Minister)
  Japan (Foreign Minister)
  Rhodesia
  Rhodesia
  Hong Kong
  Hong Kong
  Romania (President)
  Romania (President)
  Nuclear Suppliers' Group
  Nuclear Suppliers' Group
  Hijacking
  Hijacking
  Indians and Pakistanis (Entry Certificates)
  Indians and Pakistanis (Entry Certificates)
  Namibia
  Namibia
  Nigeria
  Nigeria
  Diplomatic Missions
  Diplomatic Missions
  New Hebrides
  New Hebrides
  Gibraltar
  Gibraltar
  Chile
  Chile
  Mozambique
  Mozambique
EUROPEAN COMMUNITY
  Membership
  Membership
  Small Businesses
  Small Businesses
NORTHERN IRELAND
  Disabled Persons
  Disabled Persons
  Cystic Fibrosis
  Cystic Fibrosis
  Autism
  Autism
  Blind Persons
  Blind Persons
  Spina Bifida
  Spina Bifida
  Cerebral Palsy
  Cerebral Palsy
  Multiple Sclerosis
  Multiple Sclerosis
  Muscular Dystrophy
  Muscular Dystrophy
  Parkinson's Disease
  Parkinson's Disease
  Education (Handicapped Children)
  Education (Handicapped Children)
  Unemployed Persons
  Unemployed Persons
  Children (Special Education)
  Children (Special Education)
  Disabled Drivers (Parking Concessions)
  Disabled Drivers (Parking Concessions)
  Container Refurbishing Limited
  Container Refurbishing Limited

Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock (Prayers having been read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the Lord Bishop of Derby):
The LORD CHANCELLOR On the Woolsack.

HIJACKING: AIRPORT SECURITY PRECAUTIONS
Lord JANNER: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the failure of international agreements (including the Tokyo Convention, The Hague Convention and the Montreal Convention) to prevent criminals from hijacking aircraft, what steps they are taking or will take in co-operation with other nations to stop air facilities from being afforded to countries which are not prepared to take adequate precautions to examine all air passengers before they embark and/or those which harbour hijackers and/or those which are found to be training people for the perpetration of hijacking.
The MINISTER of STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts): My Lords, the Tokyo, Hague and Montreal Conventions provide for the prosecution or extradition of all hijackers and are thus necessary instruments in the fight against hijacking. Unfortunately, these conventions have not yet been ratified by a number of States. Her Majesty's Government are working with their friends to secure universal ratification. Sanctions such as my noble friend has in mind can be decided only at the international level. When the international community is ready to agree effective joint action, Her Majesty's Government will wish to play a leading part.
Lord JANNER: My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware that it is no use going to the United Nations on this
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matter and that, despite the years during which hijacking and terrorism have been continuing, it has never been raised on one occasion in the Security Council as a special item? Should we not be getting together with the pilots' associations and all civilised nations to see whether we can do something which will prevail in spite of those members of the United Nations who, according to their agenda, apparently have nothing else to do but attack Israel? Will he ensure that we bring people together and that we stop giving facilities to any country which does not obey civilised rules?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I can assure my noble friend—and I think I have done so on more than one occasion—that we are in constant touch with the organisations he mentioned in his supplementary question, particularly with pilots' organisations, the ICAO and with other countries who, like us, wish to have a joint effort to counter all forms of terrorism. As to action in the United Nations, the United Kingdom was itself co-sponsor of a resolution passed last week in the United Nations calling once more on all States to take all necessary steps, including the improvement of security arrangements and other related questions, to prevent hijacking. We lose absolutely no opportunity with organisations like the United Nations, with professional organisations and with other countries, to press forward in the sense and with the objective which I described in my Answer.
Lord JANNER: But does my noble friend realise, my Lords, that what I said is true; that is, that the Security Council itself has never dealt with this problem, that one cannot rely on a large number of those who are at present at the United Nations and that the pilots' associations did not proceed with their strike on the undertaking that this matter would be dealt with immediately? Cannot we get the nations which are civilised to deal with it, together with ourselves, in that category, to ensure that something is done rapidly?—otherwise the position can deteriorate into utter chaos.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I must emphasise the need for a comprehensive international attack on this problem. It is impracticable to make

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progress if some countries have not ratified any or all of the three conventions I described; they cover hijacking, criminal activity at airports and interference with air travel in many respects. Between 80 and 90 countries have so far ratified these conventions. That leaves a great many other countries, which no doubt my noble friend would describe as uncivilised, which have not yet ratified. It is our task and duty to get everybody to ratify these conventions so that they can be universally applied. The nature of the problem is that it is international and can be effectively countered only internationally. As to the role of the Security Council, I would be very glad to discuss with my noble friend how any intervention by the Security Council could add to the efforts already made to solve this problem.
Lord BARNBY: My Lords, is any progress being made with regard to the International Airline Pilots' Association? If there could be agreement within the Association not to fly to any countries which had not ratified, then it would seem natural that that would be likely to accelerate the process of ratification.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, that is certainly a thought for the airline pilots' associations. There are a number of considerations which they, like we and other Governments, would have to bear in mind before such action was decided upon.
Baroness ELLES: My Lords, may we have an assurance that the Government are giving full co-operation to organisations such as Interpol, which are, after all, very deeply concerned in the prevention, as well as the aftermath, of international terrorism? Are they making adequate contribution to the work of that organisation?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: Yes, indeed, my Lords. We are in close and constant touch with organisations such as the institution which the noble Baroness described. When I said we were in close touch with other Governments, that is to be seen as including international organisations which are also subject to local Government supervision.
Lord TANLAW: My Lords, would the Minister agree that, given the nature and realities of this problem, even if everything that has been asked were done in the best possible world, it is really the carrier who is ultimately responsible for the safety of the passenger? Would he also consider putting some of the onus on the carriers to make sure that security precautions are taken at some of the airports which do not or will not conform to the suggestions put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Janner?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I think I would go along with the noble Lord on that, if he would also agree that there is a statutory duty on Governments, as being responsible for airports, to play their part, and it is a very important part indeed. I am sure the noble Lord would not wish to place a kind of monopoly of obligation on the carrier himself; he has his role to play and well he plays it in co-operation with Governments like ours.

HIJACKING AND TERRORIST ORGANISATIONS
2.40 p.m.
Lord JANNER: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have knowledge of any organisations which are participating in training hijackers of aircraft and have branches or acknowledged representatives in Great Britain and, if so, what steps are being taken to deal with this situation.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, if we had information that any individual here was engaged in terrorist activity, either here or abroad, we would not hesitate to take appropriate action.
Lord JANNER: That, my Lords, is not quite the point of the Question I was raising. Are there in this country any people who are representatives of nations which are disobeying civilised rules by not taking action against hijackers and other terrorists? Are they representing

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organisations like the PLO, which is behind the training of many of these people, and other organisations? That is what I am driving at. Is it not time that we went into that matter, and did not give these people the opportunity of spreading their views, which obviously must mean supporting hijacking in a country like ours?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I am sorry if my first Answer was not sufficiently clear to my noble friend. Perhaps I may put it in this way: If an individual here was known to be an active member of an organisation abroad or in this country which was committed to terrorism, that in itself would be a reason for considering appropriate action.
Lord CHELWOOD: My Lords, is it not quite important to look at the root cause of some of the hijacking that goes on? For instance, the PLO has been mentioned. Would not the PLO cease to exist if Israel withdrew from the occupied Arab territories, the territories occupied after the 1967 War?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I am almost inclined to quote Abraham Lincoln and say,
"One war at a time".
This is a political question which must be considered somewhat apart, I suggest, from the Question we are considering now. There are varying views relating to the theme which my noble friend has just raised.
Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE: My Lords, I would normally agree with everything that my noble friend says, but would not the noble Lord opposite agree, first, that one of the root causes of hijacking is the belief, which is apparently increasingly widespread, that the end justifies the means? Further, would he agree that political action to achieve political ends ought to stop short of inhumanity to man?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, it is impossible not to agree in a forthright and unreserved fashion with what the noble and learned Lord has just said.
Lord SHINWELL: My Lords, does my noble friend understand from the two
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supplementary questions that have just been asked that, because the State of Israel is seeking its right to security, that is a justification for hijacking? Is that what they are suggesting?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I am in no position to interpret the innermost thoughts of noble Lords who have raised this matter in relation to my noble friend's Question, and I suggest that my noble friend Lord Shinwell seeks bilateral relations with them.
Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONE: My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that that was not a reasonable interpretation, at any rate, to put on my question?
Lord SHINWELL: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that when I seek relations I like to choose my company?

CAMBODIA: VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS
2.44 p.m.
Lord GLADWYN: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will consider vetoing any further measures of constraint against the Republic of South Africa until such time as the General Assembly and the Security Council have voted to exclude from the United Nations, on the grounds of a total and evident violation of all human rights, the present régime in the People's Republic of Cambodia.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, our policy is to work through the United Nations to bring effective international pressure to bear over violations of human rights whenever and wherever they occur, but we do not accept that action in respect of one country should be conditional on progress in another. We support the principle of universal membership of the United Nations and oppose the expulsion of Member States, whatever the reason.
Lord GLADWYN: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for that reply, which I must say was on the lines that I expected. But surely the Government are aware that, in the light of all the available evidence, the Red Khmer authorities, apparently on the sole grounds that they could read and write and lived in towns, have shot, clubbed to death, starved to death, or left to rot in the paddy fields anything up to one-fifth of the entire population of Cambodia? This seems, on the face of it, to be one of the greatest collective crimes even of our present horrible century. Since it is difficult to contradict the facts, would not the Government at least agree that what is sauce for the South African goose should even more be sauce for the Cambodian gander?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, it is tempting to follow the noble Lord's logic in this matter. However, I think that it would be found to be progressively counter-productive if one were to relate policies in this respect to one country on the basis of what happens in another. However, I hasten to agree with him that reports from Cambodia must horrify everybody. We have made our views on this matter known more than once, and we continue to do so, to the Cambodian authorities. Indeed, we have joined with others in discussing the best ways of pressing forward to secure an improvement in the situation. I certainly would not dissent from the noble Lord's description of what has been happening in that country, and I would hope that there would be a consensus as to how to deal with the situation internationally, though not related to how we deal with the situation in any other country.
Baroness ELLES: My Lords, can the Minister inform the House as to what steps the Government have taken in the General Assembly of the United Nations with regard to the condemnation of Cambodia, particularly in relation to the crime of genocide?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I think that the noble Baroness is referring to the session where it was hoped to reach the matter of Cambodia, but it was not possible because the session fairly well confined itself to the situation in
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Uganda. That certainly does not rule out the possibility—I would say the probability—of early attention being given to the situation in Cambodia. Indeed, one is heartened, by the way in which the international community reacted to the situation in Uganda, to hope for a similar strong reaction by everybody to the position in Cambodia.
Baroness ELLES: My Lords, would the Minister therefore give an assurance that every effort will be made by the British Government in the United Nations to defend the rights of those who have been tortured and have suffered in Cambodia?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: Yes, certainly, my Lords; we have done, and shall continue to do, everything we can to help to protect or rescue people who have been placed in this terrible situation in that country, and indeed in any other country.
Lord GLADWYN: My Lords, is it possible for us to do anything at all in view of the evident fact that all action against Cambodia is held up by the Afro-Asian bloc?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, that is not a final, end effect. One is constantly seeking to overturn, to go beyond, situations of that kind. It is a fact that there are in the United Nations groups of countries who oppose our ideas and those of our friends, but that is no reason why we should not continue to press our point of view. I have just given the example of Uganda, where we have been successful.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, will the Government, in considering this question, bear two points in mind? The first is that South Africa is the only Government in the world whose philosophy accepts racial discrimination. The second is that there are now 80 Governments in the world who are denying human rights. While we are appalled by what has happened in Cambodia, there are other territories, even allies of ours, which are denying human rights, and to carry out the principle referred to would mean that half of the members of the United Nations would have to retire from that Assembly.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I cannot dissent from the statistical precision of my noble friend, but I think that he and I might differ in detail as to the approach to this matter. We condemn and oppose as effectively as we can apartheid in South Africa and torture in Cambodia. It is not possible to relate the one to the other, and to decide what to do in respect of one contingent upon what one does in respect of the other. We must maintain a general condemnation of all these abominable practices, wherever they occur.

A66 IMPROVEMENTS: ESTIMATED COST
Lord INGLEWOOD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what is their latest estimate of the cost of the A66 road improvements between Chapel Brow and Barons Cross, as compared with the estimate given at the public inquiry in Penrith in February/March 1972.
Baroness STEDMAN: My Lords, at the 1972 public inquiry, the estimate given of the comprehensive improvement of the A66 trunk road between Chapel Brow and Barons Cross was £11.6 million, which equates to approximately £26 million at present-day costs. The final cost of the scheme is expected to be £31.8 million. The differences in cost, although largely accounted for by inflation, are also partly due to the identification of precise requirements arising out of the detailed design as well as to unexpected difficulties encountered during the actual construction of the road.
Lord INGLEWOOD: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness.

ADDRESS IN REPLY TO HER MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH
2.51 p.m.
Debate resumed on the Motion moved on Thursday last by Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede—namely, That an humble
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Address be presented to Her Majesty as follows:
"Most Gracious Sovereign—We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, beg leave to thank Your Majesty for the most gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."
The LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord Elwyn-Jones): My Lords, in yesterday's debate the House concentrated on economic affairs, and today we turn principally to home affairs. They are, of course, not separable. Many of the things I would have liked to do in my own Department, for instance, have for reasons of economy had to be shelved for the time being—like making legal aid more readily available to a wider segment of the population. However, bearing in mind that we have had to weather the worst recession the world has seen for over 40 years, we have not done badly, as, on the whole, yesterday's debate indicated. We now stand on the threshold of substantial improvement in the real standard of life of our people, provided that there is restraint in the year ahead. Now, even the most committed doomwatcher is less likely to cable his editor, as it is said was once done, with the words:
"Almost impossible to exaggerate the gravity of the situation here, but I will do my best".
My Lords, my own Ministerial task is to safeguard the impartial administration of justice and to endeavour to see that the machinery of that part for which I am responsible is run as efficiently as possible. I have over the past 12 months frequently expressed my concern at the serious effect of the ever-increasing growth in the volume of cases coming before the courts, and in particular the Crown Court. Strenuous efforts have been made to speed up trials and enlarge the capacity of the Crown Court to cope with its crushing caseload, and in 1976 the number of cases actually dealt with rose by 8 per cent. Despite these efforts, the number of cases awaiting trial has risen from about 8,000 in 1974 to no less than 16,000 in September of this year.
Delays, and potential injustice resulting from delays, are the inescapable consequences of this backlog. However,

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waiting times between the date of committal for trial and the trial itself vary in different parts of the country. For example, they average nine weeks in the Midland and Oxford and the Western Circuits but 29 weeks in London, where the worst problems arise. Those in custody in London are likely to have to wait, on average, 15 weeks before their trial. Those are average figures. In particular cases defendants may wait much longer, and may at the end of the day be acquitted or dealt with other than by way of a custodial sentence. There is some evidence that the alarming rate of increase in cases coming forward may be diminishing, but the fact is that between 1972 and 1976 the number rose by more than one-third.
This mounting tide has called for all such action from Her Majesty's Government as your Lordships' House and another place have so far been willing to accept and the other place to find money for. I hope that some help at least may come from the Criminal Law Act which we passed this year and which removed from the jurisdiction of the Crown Court a number of classes of case, in particular motoring offences. As a result, it is estimated that some 4,000 to 5,000 cases a year will be tried instead by magistrates. I continue to plan new courts, to recommend Her Majesty to appoint more circuit judges and recorders, and to foster every effort towards streamlining procedures. The High Court Bench has already increased from 31 High Court judges in 1947 to 73 now, with 284 circuit judges, some 350 recorders and a considerable number of lawyers sitting part-time as deputy circuit judges.
As for the situation in the London courts, I have approved a series of measures to spread the load outwards from the most burdened, more central court centres to others which are less heavily pressed. The areas from which cases are committed to Crown Courts within Greater London have also been adjusted. In addition, within the next 12 months, we hope to carry on a crash programme to provide 25 new courtrooms in London.
I have mentioned that cases are taking longer to try. Indeed, as the noble and learned Lord Chief Justice, Lord Widgery,
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has said, trials are "getting unhealthily longer". There are no conclusive explanations of this. The noble and learned Lord Chief Justice has suggested that it has much to do with the ready availability of legal aid and the lack of a financial incentive to shorten the length of trials. That is no doubt something the legal profession will wish to consider. Of course, complaints of verbosity on the part of counsel are not new. There was the famous occasion when counsel apologised to Chief Justice Cockburn for taking so much time, and the Chief Justice thundered: "Time? You have exhausted time and encroached upon eternity!"
The basic cause of our troubles is the increase in crime and, unhappily, in violent crime. This we must not condone, whether it consists of vicious attacks on females or on those rendering service to the public, like policemen, bus drivers, taxi drivers or licensees. Courts at all levels are rightly taking an increasingly serious view of these offences. For instance, offenders convicted of rape are almost invariably sentenced to a long period in custody. In 1976, over 90 per cent. of offenders aged 21 and over who were convicted of rape or attempted rape were sentenced to immediate imprisonment. Over 90 per cent. of offenders aged between 17 and 21 were sentenced either to imprisonment or to borstal. Many of these were in fact convicted only of attempted rape. Over half the prison sentences imposed were for a period of over three years, and nearly 20 per cent. were for over five years.
Other violent offences vary more in their gravity according to the particular circumstances than does rape, which is in itself a very grave crime. However, courts do impose severe sentences on violent offenders and do recognise the public concern about violent crime. For instance, in 1976
85 per cent. of adult offenders who were convicted of robbery were sentenced to immediate imprisonment, and nearly 70 per cent. of offenders aged between 17 and 21 were sentenced either to imprisonment or to borstal training.
The Criminal Law Act itself strengthened the powers of the courts by increasing certain maximum penalties, including the new maximum of life imprisonment for attempting to cause ex-

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plosions with intent to endanger life or property and a penalty of five years' imprisonment for the new offence of bomb hoaxing. Heavy increases in maximum summary fines for offences such as possessing an offensive weapon at a public meeting, common and aggravated assault and obstructing a police officer are all now in force. So we have not sat idly by.
The Criminal Law Act also made a number of changes designed to assist the courts in dealing with juveniles. For instance, it enabled a court in one area to enforce an attendance centre order made in another area. Courts can now make attendance centre orders in respect of young offenders who commit offences at some distances from their homes. The implications for football hooliganism and the kind of rowdyism which often occurs at seaside and other
resorts are obvious. Some money had already been made available to provide more attendance centres and part of the additional resources for law and order which were mentioned in the Chancellor's Budget speech will also be used for this purpose.
The various pressures on the courts generally are under continuous intensive study in my Department, in the Home Office and elsewhere. At present there are two Royal Commissions: that under Lord Pearson on civil liability, the other under Sir Henry Benson on legal services generally. A third is being set up on criminal procedure. On the civil side I have set up a Working Party of experts under Mr. Justice Cantley to report on current procedures in personal injury cases. Indeed, I doubt whether the administration of justice has ever been under so much critical scrutiny and so much study. The same is to some extent happening in other countries with similar social and legal systems to ours, as I discovered this autumn in the Conference of Ministers of Justice of the Commonwealth, in Canada. Among all of them was the same anxiety about increasing crime, the same searching for explanations and for remedies. In the USA the crime scene in some of the great cities is alarming.
In these countries, as in ours, there is an awareness that the administration of justice is not just a matter of crime statistics, judges and courts. It must be seen as part of the broader picture of the home
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environment. As I ventured to say in the House this time last year:
"If an atmosphere of decay and hopelessness in a community persists, particularly in our inner cities, then the consequential damage that is done to disadvantaged families and their children, who have no option but to live there, is bound to have effect in terms of crime, and especially adolescent crime … family ties and the old disciplines of the family and the community are vanishing in the face of squalor and disruption. There are significant relationships between crime and social deprivation".—[Official Report, 30/11/76; col. 138].
It is therefore good to note in the Queen's Speech that a Bill will be introduced to renew and revive the inner urban areas. It will give local authorities greater powers to help those who live and work there, by means of direct financial assistance to industry to help with the conversion and improvement of old industrial premises, to give 100 per cent. grants in London to clear derelict land, and to subsidise rents and aid the preparation of sites.
The conditions in some of the inner urban areas have been aggravated by the considerable influx of immigrants into some of them. Full and disturbing advantage has been taken of these circumstances by the National Front, and I was glad to note the observation of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place that,
"The menace of the National Front is to all Parties and the methods of those who oppose the National Front by violence are equally unacceptable".
There is a growing need to foster harmony between all people living in these islands and to do so by beginning
"from the principle that all men and women, whatever their colour, who are citizens in this country, should have equal rights under the law".
In this legal field I greatly hope that Parliament will find time in this Session for a Bill to implement a European Convention on the Suppression of Terrorism, which I think will help greatly in regard to matters raised earlier today; and also for a Bill to reorganise the higher courts in Northern Ireland which would help to deal with cases there.
I now turn to the field of law reform. The late Lord Buck master once said:
"Law and legal procedure have always been a mystery to the uninitiated, a snare to the unwary, a red rag to the unhappy man possessed of reforming zeal".

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There has been no lack of reforming zeal around in recent years. And it has not been the monopoly of the present Government. During the last Session a number of important measures of law reform received Royal Assent, several of them initiated in this House, like the Patents Act. Further proposals for reform continue to flow from the Law Commission, to which we owe a great debt of gratitude. Of most immediate interest is the Report on Matrimonial Proceedings in Magistrates' Courts. This tackles the fundamental problem about matrimonial proceedings which was raised by the Finer Report on One-Parent Families. This is that we have at present two different systems of matrimonial law with overlapping jurisdictions; one in the magistrates' courts and the other in the county courts and High Court.
Finer concluded that the system administered by the magistrates' courts was archaic and in urgent need of reform. The Government intend to introduce legislation which will implement the Law Commission's recommendations as to how this can be done. I am glad to say—and I note the support of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham—that the Opposition have helpfully agreed to the proposed Bill being taken in the Second Reading Committee in another place. This will much increase its chances of passing in this crowded Session.
Turning from the activities of the Law Commission to that other valuable body, the Law Reform Committee, I am very glad to have received the Committee's 21st Report, which completes their work on limitation of actions. After consultation with the Law Commission, I have now asked the Law Reform Committee to consider the law relating to the making and revocation of wills, and, secondly, the statutory and other powers and rights of trustees and personal representatives. I continue to receive considerable correspondence about the state of the law on wills, which gave rise to the alleged famous occasion when a great probate action in regard to a very large and wealthy estate was unexpectedly settled on the first morning. As counsel for the respective parties left the court, one said to the other: "What a shame to see a fine estate being frittered away among the beneficiaries!" No doubt it is a wholly apocryphal
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story and any such squalid thought would never enter counsel's mind.
In the field of administrative law, two modest but, I think, useful measures of reform are being made. The first provides for a right of appeal on a point of law from the Supplementary Benefit Appeal Tribunals to the High Court. Secondly, I hope that before long nearly all the important Law Commission's recommendations on remedies in adminintrative law will be implemented by amendments to Rules of Court.
I turn now briefly to devolution, which forms one of the major items in the Government's legislative programme this Session. Two separate Bills, providing for directly-elected Assemblies in Scotland and Wales, were read a first time in another place last Friday. We, as a Government, are firmly committed to placing both Bills on the Statute Book. As your Lordships will know, these measures are of major constitutional importance and inevitably they are complex. They have been developed over a long period and after considerable consultation, reflection and thought. We have looked carefully at the points which were made on the original Scotland and Wales Bill and, as a result, I was able to announce to your Lordships in July that further changes would be made. These are now incorporated in the Bills.
One of the objectives has been to simplify and clarify the provisions wherever possible and to provide more certainly and clearly for the exercise of devolved responsibilities. The Bills dispense with a number of detailed provisions, leaving the Assemblies freer to decide the way in which they conduct their business. We have also dispensed with some of the detailed controls on the actions of the devolved administrations. But as an essential safeguard, the Government will have and retain general reserve powers to protect matters which are not to be devolved: for example, defence, trade, the economy, energy and industrial relations.
The Scotland Bill includes provision for the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council to be the final court of reference in legal proceedings about the vires of Scottish Assembly Acts. The Judicial Committee will also, as before, undertake pre-Assent scrutiny of Scottish Assembly Bills on references by the Secretary of State.

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The Assemblies will be financed by block funds. Although it is not provided for in the Bills, we hope to devise a system whereby we should avoid annual negotiation by developing a formula which will apply to the funds over several years. As I made clear in July, the Government have been unable to identify any satisfactory form of revenue-raising power for the Assemblies. But we will consider any proposals for supplementary tax powers from the new administrations provided they are prepared to meet the costs.
When the Scotland and Wales Bill was discussed in another place last Session, the Government announced their intention to hold referendums in Scotland and Wales after enactment, on the question whether the Act should be put into effect. To do so before enactment would be to ask people to vote on what would be an imprecise and uncertain question. Provisions for the referendums, which are to be advisory to Parliament, are included in both Bills.
The Government believe that by the substantial devolution of powers we propose for the new Assemblies, the people in Scotland and Wales can—within the union—be given a much greater democratic participation in making their own choices on matters which are primarily of concern to themselves. Our unity need not, and should not, depend on enforcing conformity from the centre. We believe that such a reform will strengthen, not weaken, the United Kingdom, whose unity remains essential for the happiness and prosperity of all the peoples living within its shores.

THE FIRE SERVICE: THREATENED STRIKE
Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE: My Lords, with the leave of the House, at a convenient moment after 3.30 p.m., my noble friend Lord Harris of Greenwich will repeat a Statement being made in another place on the Fire Service.

ADDRESS IN REPLY TO HER MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH
3.13 p.m.
Debate resumed.
Earl FERRERS: My Lords, as we enter the third day of the new Session of Parliament one cannot help reflecting that one of the raisons d'être of politics is change, and trying to discover what is wrong with our society and how we can make it right or at least better. The sad thing is that inevitably this makes us critical and sometimes even unthankful of what we have. We live in frightening times; but I doubt whether any generation found their time anything other than frightening—fear of the unknown sees to that. We see economic problems bristling from every bush, despite the charms of North Sea oil. We see respect for the law ridiculed and up-ended. We see people crying out for a better Health Service, yet doctors and nurses are frustrated by overwork and the near collapse of the very thing that they and we want to see made better. We see people longing for a better education, yet the standards of education declining.
We see union leaders unable to control their members and, paradoxically, union members unable to control their leaders. We see people in public life, whether captains of industry or politicians, sometimes saying and sometimes doing unwise things, and others who use the techniques of the police state and power of the media—whether right or wrong—to "bust" them. We see the criticism and the fact that Parliament is increasingly becoming out of touch with the feelings of ordinary people. In short, we are living in a condition where man is becoming increasingly distrustful of his fellow man, yet where all are yearning to be led away from the disaster which we all fear, which individually nobody wants, yet it is one which we may corporately unwillingly obtain.
As I see it, that is the state of our home affairs. If that depicts a gloomy picture of life, there is another side. Hardly anyone in this country can have experienced what we have experienced in the past nine months without being eternally grateful that we have our institution of monarchy and in it the person of our Queen. She stands in that happy and humble way with superb dignity over and above all of us and our problems. As we pull ourselves and each other to pieces in trying to resolve our problems, at the same

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time we share common contentment in being her subjects. Never was this more vividly seen than in this year in celebration of her Jubilee. Whether it was in the service at St. Paul's Cathedral, the fireworks, street parties or visits to towns and regions, the spirit of rejoicing was there—rejoicing for her, with her and with each other. And what a hugely unifying process that was! Gone momentarily were all the divisions and the factions, the discontents and frustrations, and in came happiness, joy and unity, which is the foundation for any successful family, business or nation. How lucky we are, and how the world envies us!
I do not believe that was a peculiar Jubilee manifestation; that was the true spirit of the country that was displayed then, and I do not believe it to be beyond hope that that spirit can continue to be harnessed for the benefit of the nation as a whole. One could not ignore the startling contrast between those happy police controlling those happy crowds in the Mall on Jubilee day and those unhappy police being reviled and maltreated by the mobs outside the Grunwick factory and elsewhere. Yet in both cases the people were the same; the police were men, dressed in uniform and doing a job, who had wives, families and children. The people outside Grunwick were the same; they had families, homes and children just like those in the Mall. Many of them, I dare say, would have been in the Mall or in the street parties and rejoicing.
My Lords, why do we have this contrast? The noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor said that everyone throughout the world was worried about this, including the United States. I venture with modesty to suggest my idea of what might be the cause: I believe that it might be because, whether in our own homes, in our schools or on the television, we may have bred a generation to believe that each individual is as good as the next man. Of course this is absolutely untrue. No one is as good as the next person. Most people excel in something, but the brute fact is that one is usually incompetent in more things than that in which one is competent. If we have encouraged a generation to be deaf to reason, we may have encouraged a generation to lack humility. Lack of humility can easily give way to
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arrogance, and arrogance en masse nationally can be almost uncontrollable.
My Lords, make no mistake, it is we who are responsible, whether as politicians, as parents or as teachers, in our efforts to give to a postwar generation the freedoms which their parents never had, however commendable in itself that may be. We have in turn feared to support the disciplines and guidelines to which any family, school or nation must be prepared to subjugate itself if its members are to have true respect for their fellow men and, ultimately, for themselves. This increasingly common manifestation of unrest comes about in the main by human beings who individually would never behave like that but who collectively become motivated by forces outside the control of themselves and their leaders. Then there is literally no control.
We sometimes forget that, as individuals, what we say often has an effect far greater than the actual deed or word and frequently far different from what we anticipate or intend. People, even Cabinet Ministers who, for instance, join a picket line to emphasise a legitimately held view, cannot absolve themselves totally from responsibility when the future takes on an unexpected shape, for the future is only moulded by a whole host of influences, of which theirs may be one, into the final result—and the final result may be one which no one individually anticipated, intended or wanted. A single note played on a piano has little effect on the listener. It is only when that note is joined by others and the combination by which they join it that the character of the final composition, of which that note is an integral part, is revealed.
The fear over law and order is one of the most fundamental problems facing the nation at present, and I was glad that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor referred to it. We call ourselves a compassionate, tolerant and understanding society. Indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Birk, last night said just that. She said that we are
"…a society that is compassionate and believes in the quality of life".—[Official Report, 8/11/77; col. 147.]
With the greatest respect to the noble Baroness, that is nonsense. Maybe it is what we are trying to be and maybe it is what we ought to be, but the fact is that

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we are a selfish and self-orientated and indeed, I suggest, a frightened society. I believe it is time that we stopped congratulating ourselves on being that which we manifestly are not.
When 200 million people throughout the world are denied the pleasure of watching the Opening of Parliament on television, can anyone deny, however good the case may be, that that was anything other than a selfish act—particularly when many of those who would have watched it were the elderly, the homebound and those of infinitely lesser means than those who were involved? When we see towns and streets plunged into darkness and businesses both big and small forced to a halt, where people are literally terrified to walk home without, as a young hairdresser did the other day, taking a pair of scissors from her salon for protection before she set out into the darkness, where patients have to be sewn up by torchlight with their operations unfinished, can anyone deny, however good the case may be, that that is anything other than a selfish act?
The reaction is—and this is the danger—that attitudes take a smart move to the right and the public are no longer interested in the facts which cause a strike. They are fed up with being mucked about and they are even more fed up with those who say, "Of course, we do not want to hurt the public", when everyone knows full well that that is precisely whom they do want to hurt, because the impact is thereby greater. And when the gracious Speech mentions bringing in legislation concerning greater safety and discipline at sea, I cannot help thinking: Why do the Government want to go to sea for it? What everyone wants is greater safety and discipline at home; and if the Government are so proud of their close ties with the unions, which I readily acknowledge, what action are they taking to persuade their union friends to address their minds more to the public's case than to the interests of self? And if the Liberal Party are so proud of keeping the present Government in Office and of the impact which they thereby have on national affairs, what action have they taken to demand of the Government, as part of the deal, that stricter measures should be taken for public security?
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I realise this is no easy task, but Governments are responsible, if not for the cause, at least for a vigorous attempt at a solution. Lip-service there is in plenty, but the spine is not there, and in a sophisticated society such as ours any fool can throw a spanner in the works and wreck it for everyone else. If abuse of the freedoms which our society has given to the individual are going to permit a return to the era of the footpad, then we may find ourselves, in the interests of the whole, having to curtail some of the freedoms; and the public would support that.
It is not surprising, therefore, that one hears increasing demands from some quarters for a return of capital punishment and even corporal punishment, not just for retribution but in order to protect society; and, whatever our views on those subjects may be, we are hollow if we do not recognise the reasons. The tolerance of society is being stretched to its extremes; yet the one controlling factor is the police force, and what they are subjected to and the lack of support in general which they receive is making severe inroads into their morale. I frequently put the question to myself, and I put it to your Lordships this afternoon: What happens when the police force cannot stick it any more? It is not just a simple mathematical question of pay and pensions, important though that is, or of supplying equipment. It is far more personal than that: it hinges on the lengths to which a policeman is prepared to go in acting as an Aunt Sally, in being punched up and cut with milk bottles, or having to emerge from among his fellow men covered with spittle, before he says, "I've had enough." The public in the vicinity understandably, like tortoises, retract into their shells, and say, "This is not for me." The policeman is left on his own, feeling that nobody really cares. Lip-service there is in plenty but the spine is not there. That is when morale is vulnerable and, if that goes, along with it overnight go the dignity, the authority and the excellence of the police force which, like tap water, we have all taken for granted and on which our society depends for its very existence.
While I would not wish to be an alarmist, I think that point could well be nearer than we expect, and no effort should be

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spared by Governments or individuals to prevent that from happening. It is not just a question of Government, though of course they have a lead part to play. It is for society as a whole, and we would do well to ease back a little from that sanctimonious attitude taken up by the media in wallowing in every indiscretion, bad though that may be, deliberately provoked (as it often is), and giving the impression that that is characteristic of the whole.
If all this gives cause for people to be apprehensive, so also does the prospect of devolution. I admire—
The MINISTER of STATE, HOME OFFICE (Lord Harris of Greenwich): My Lords, with great respect to the noble Earl, whose speech I have followed with great interest, he has described a very apocalyptic situation in terms of the general law-and-order situation in this country, What are his remedies?
Earl FERRERS: My Lords, the noble Lord is perfectly entitled to make his own speech in his own time. I have tried. I said that this is not an easy problem. I have tried with reason to give my diagnosis of it. If the noble Lord does not like it he is perfectly entitled to say so, and I shall listen to him with interest a little later on. But if all this gives cause for people to be apprehensive, so, I venture to suggest, does devolution. I admire, but I confess I do not applaud, the Government's resilience in having another go at the subject. They emerged battered after the last round and my guess is that they will emerge battered after the next round. It seemed to me that the only substantial advantage of the last Bill—and it was a considerable one—was that so much Parliamentary time was allocated to it that when it was dropped there was nothing else to take its place and the result was that we had a Session with very little new legislation. Curiously enough, that is exactly what the public wants and I commend the practice to the Government.
One thing is crystal clear: any new legislation on this subject will be electorally unpopular and highly controversial between Parties and within Parties and between peoples and within peoples.
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I would be the first to concede that there is a strong feeling among many of the Scots and, to a lesser extent, among the Welsh that they wish to have more control over their own destinies and that they do not wish to have their lives ruled by a remote bureaucracy which is insensitive to local feelings. No one can complain of that, and no one can deny its existence. But you do not have to be a Scotsman or a Welshman to feel that. Even the English can feel that.
I am by no means convinced that at least a substantial part of the momentum which masquerades under "nationalism"—which in this context, let us remember, is a divisive, not a unifying word—is not due to the disenchantment with bureaucracy; its ever-growing size, its overgrowing impersonality and its ever-growing distance, both physically and emotionally, from the contact point of the individual. Lubricate that with the lure of North Sea oil and a formidable driving force is born. How often do we hear the criticism of large local authorities that they do not know what is going on; they are too big; they are too far away; they do not care. Dab that argument with a little nationalistic paint, and you have something very different on your hands. You are releasing the forces not of smallism, but of separatism. Pride in one's family, in one's clan, in one's history, in one's country is, in any person, a commendable virtue, provided that it is used constructively. Used avariciously or offensively, it can be a destructive and a dangerous weapon.
If we are to alter the Constitution so fundamentally, as any of these proposals are pretty well bound to do, surely it must be in the national interest to have as much common agreement across the board as possible, and I wonder why the Government have consistently refused to have a constitutional conference at which all people and all Parties can give their views before legislation is brought forward. Why are the Government determined to go it alone on a highly speculative and, I venture to suggest, constitutionally dangerous path? Is it in order to assuage the undoubted, but as yet unmeasured, present feelings of discontent? Is it because the Government feel that once devolution has taken place—whatever that may mean—the United Kingdom as a whole will be better administered, more

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united and its people more happy? Or, is it because of the acknowledged political fact that, if the Government do nothing, many Scottish and Welsh seats at present held by Labour MPs will be lost to Nationalists?
In so far as the last argument carries any weight—I think a noble Lord said "No", but I fancy it carries quite a bit of weight—I would express the opinion that it is an understandable political reaction, but it is a bad constitutional reason. We in Parliament are nothing more than the custodians of our heritage. If, in the short time that we are here, we have any influence over our national life or our Constitution, that influence mast surely he directed not so much to meeting present-day demands which tomorrow will be different, as to trying to ensure that, despite the proliferation of present-day demands, the next generation will have a reasonable country in which to live. The English, the Scots, the Welsh and the Northern Irish have, over the years, shared each other's problems, each other's expertise and each other's friendship and it would be tragic if any action of our day were to result in them finding themselves on a course which might ultimately lead, in some form or other, to division between them.
Many would say that that is not the purpose of the Bill. Many would say that that it is not the objective of the current demands. But might it not again be like the note on the piano which, when accompanied by other, as yet unknown, notes, will nevertheless have a significant effect on the final composition? And if so, will future generations thank us? If these Bills proceed far, I fear that we shall once again provide the spectacle of this nation unhappily tearing its sinews apart in argument, accentuating the differences instead of cultivating the harmony, and complaining, as is characteristic of our time, of those things which appear inequitable and unjust, instead of rejoicing in those benefits of association which have gone right and which, because they have gone right, we have taken for granted.
The Lord PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart): My Lords, I am listening very carefully to the noble Earl's interesting speech, though I am not sure whether he is for devolution or is anti-devolution. Would he be specific?
Earl FERRERS: My Lords, if the noble Lord will be kind enough to contain himself, maybe he will find the result in the remainder of my speech, because I am trying to develop what I feel is a reasonable philosophy and I am not prepared to answer that kind of question with a Yes or No. But, if he listens, I think it will emerge. If this devolutionary process were to bring with it less bureaucracy, less expense and greater contentment, then at least its aims would be excellent. But I do not believe that there is one person who is prepared to put his hand on his heart and say, "Yes, I believe that that will be the result." For what it is worth, my own guess is that it will bring more bureaucracy and not less, more expense and not less and, in the ultimate, more discontent and not less.
And if, on Bills with such far-reaching effects as these are bound to have, the Government impose a guillotine in another place—and the noble Lord might like to direct his attention to that thought—where will that place us? Almost certainly, vast acreages of highly contentious legislation will emerge from another place completely undiscussed, and it will be left to your Lordships once again to try to improve them. And even the most arrogant of Governments—and I entirely acquit the noble Lord's Government of that—would not say that they would get it plumb right at the start. Not only will it be left to your Lordships to improve the Bills, but it will be left to your Lordships, as the only forum left in Parliament, to express the feelings of those of Her Majesty's subjects who feel concerned about these fundamental proposals for the future of their country, which another place will not have discussed. Faced with that, if nothing else, could anyone really say that we can afford to dispense with a Second Chamber?
Once again, your Lordships will be pitched into the cockpit of high controversy and can we not see the conflicting advice which will be given? By some we will be told, "On this constitutional issue, of all issues, do the job that you are supposed to do—advise, amend, improve. That is what you are there for." From others of more restricted approach will come the rebuke, "Interfere with what has come from an elected Chamber and we will do away with you." Faced with that situation, I have no doubt that your

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Lordships will, as we have done in the past, do the best we can, secure in the happy knowledge that we can satisfy nobody and infuriate everybody. But that is life. However, I really believe that we have a right to ask of the Government that, if Amendments are made here, the Government will not do as they frequently did in the Session before last, subject your Lordships' Amendments as well as the original Bill to the guillotine, because in that case we might as well all go home and let the Constitution be rewritten by the civil servants.
In all respects, I believe that these Bills will give us constitutional hell. If we try to ride this devolution horse—and I frankly feel that it is a long-term fiend—then let us think who it is that we are trying to benefit and who it is that we ought to be trying to benefit. It is not the Scottish Nationalists, it is not the Welsh Nationalists, it is not the people of Scotland, it is not just the people of Wales. It must be—or it is nothing—for the ultimate benefit of the United Kingdom as a whole; the Englishmen, the Scotsmen, the Welshmen and, indeed, the Northern Irishmen, whether they live in England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or abroad. And it is not, and it must not be, with the interests solely of the present generation in mind, but those of the next generation and beyond.
We have in the United Kingdom a unity which is precious beyond measure. In a turbulent world, let us ensure that anything which we do builds on and onto that unity, and does not, for what may appear reasonable motives, result in its being weakened. As we meet the holocaust of arguments on devolution head-on, we can do worse than remember the remarkable words of Archbishop Fisher when he said,
"There is no unreasonable argument that cannot be proved reasonable by reason".
The problems, the context and the solution may be different, but as we at present look across the seas to Canada and see the great strains of separation which are dissecting that proud country and its peoples, do we say " Yes, that country will be the better for it "? My fear is that other nations and other peoples will be looking across the seas at us and will be asking the same question of us and coming to the same conclusion.

THE FIRE SERVICE: THREATENED STRIKE
3.40 p.m.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: My Lords, with the leave of the House I will now repeat a Statement which is being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary. The Statement is as follows:
"In September the Fire Brigades Union submitted a claim to the National Joint Council for local authorities' fire brigades. The claim is that the qualified fireman should be paid an annual salary equivalent to a total of the average weekly earnings of adult male workers, plus 10 per cent. to take account of the skills and dangers inherent in their duties. This would mean an increase of about 30 per cent. Similar increases would be sought for other members of the Service up to and including sub-officer.
"On 3rd November the employers' side of the National Joint Council made a three part offer. This was:

(a) to increase earnings by 10 per cent. from 7th November 1977;

(b) to continue discussions on the appropriate future position of firemen in the national pay structure; and

(c) to continue discussions on a reduction in the working week from the present 48 hours.

"At a recalled delegate conference of the union held at Eastbourne on 7th November the executive council of the union recommended that conference should approve negotiations continuing within this framework and that the outcome should be reported back to a further recalled conference within a few weeks. This recommendation was rejected by conference and a resolution was carried calling for strike action to begin on Monday 14th November in the event of failure to settle the union's claim before that date.
"The Secretary of State for Scotland and I met representatives of the employers' side and of the union yesterday. We reaffirmed that there could be no question of any settlement with effect from 7th November which was not within the limits of the Government's guidelines on pay. We made it clear again that the Government recognised

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the need to establish a formula for determining Fire Service pay. We welcomed the fact that the National Joint Council was seeking through established negotiating procedures to achieve this. We said again that the Government would closely follow discussion on this subject in the National Joint Council, though the phasing of any further pay increase would have to be considered in the light of circumstances prevailing at the time. We also repeated that the Government recognised that there was a long standing claim for a reduction in the 48 hour working week of the firemen and would now be prepared for a reduction in working hours to be negotiated. It would not be possible to implement any reduction before the autumn of 1978 although preparation, including the recruitment of additional firemen for training, could begin before then.
"We urged yesterday that discussions on both of these issues should continue without delay. The two sides assured us that they would.
"The Secretary of State for Scotland and I told those who came to see us yesterday that we stood ready to meet representatives of the National Joint Council at any time.
"It is the Government's duty to do all that it can to protect life and property in the situation which faces us. We have made preparations to this end. Plans have been prepared by central Government and by fire authorities, with the Services, and will be ready to put into operation on 14th November. Emergency fire appliances are being made available to fire authorities and Servicemen are being specially trained to man them. With this assistance fire authorities will provide the best possible fire cover.
"We are issuing guidance through Government Departments and local authorities on the precautions to be taken in factories, schools, hospitals, old people's homes and so on, and we shall issue advice to the public about precautions to take in their homes. I understand from my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland that similar arrangements would be made in Northern Ireland should that he necessary.
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"With the best that all of us can do by way of these precautions I am under no illusions that they can match the fire cover provided by the regular Fire Service. There remains risk of serious loss of life and damage to property. The serious consequences that must follow any national strike in the Fire Service are incalculable.
"In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I recognise how much we all depend on the Fire Service, and on the willingness of its members to turn out at the call of duty and face the difficulties and dangers their work involves. I share the wish of the Fire Brigades Union and its members to see their pay based on a formula which recognises their value to the community. I want to see discussions of that and of a reduction in the working week pressed forward. I can understand that firemen feel that they have waited a long time. None the less, I ask them, even at this late date, to think again.
"An immediate increase of 10 per cent. in earnings is on the table. Firemen will share in the benefits that will come to all of us from the maintenance of the guidelines on pay. The discussions on a pay formula and on reduction of the working week hold out, for the first time, great and long looked for promise for the future. I ask the members of the union to weigh the benefits to them of what is on offer, and the disasters and tragedies which may be the consequence of a strike."
3.46 p.m.
Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE: My Lords, I am sure that the House is grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, for repeating this very serious Statement, which none of us can have listened to without considerable feelings of anxiety. The matters raised are threefold. One is the merits of the dispute; the second is the action proposed to be taken as a result of the dispute; and the third is the proposals of the Government to deal with the situation set up by that action.
It is no part of my philosophy, nor that of the Party to which I belong, to comment upon the merits of disputes which are under negotiation between the Government and the two sides, and I do not propose to do

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so. However, I think one comment can be made without offence. The notice given was, as I understand it from the Statement, seven days; that is to say, seven days from the rejection by the conference of the recommendation of their executive to the date at which strike action should begin. My comment, which I invite the noble Lord to deal with, if he thinks it proper, is that that amount of notice is far too short for action of this kind. If it is contemplated to have a national strike in one of the vital services, seven days' notice is not enough. Time is of enormous value in the settling of industrial differences, and seven days is not much time for that purpose. That is the only comment I want to make upon the merits of the dispute.
Secondly, I should like to assure the noble Lord and, indeed, Her Majesty's Government, that the Party to which I belong will give entire support to any measures which Her Majesty's Government may think it necessary to take for the protection of life and property, which must be both their first anxiety and their prime responsibility. Therefore we can assure the Government of our support.
Thirdly, and here I speak entirely for myself, one cannot help recognising that the Government have very candidly admitted that there is a danger to life and property. In this situation, I think the Government ought to be considering the question of compensation. In the days of the war, when air raids fell upon us, we regarded the loss as one which ought to be borne nationally. I know that there are financial implications and it may be that I am speaking out of turn. However, it seems to me that if people lose life, limb or property as a result of a situation of this kind, the Government ought at least to consider the question of compensation.
The last point I want to raise on the Statement is that one has read in the Press—and one would have thought of it even without being alerted to it by the Press—that it is possible that subversive organisations, or the IRA in particular, might seek to take advantage of the situation set up by this unhappy business, if it should come to pass. I hope that the Government are taking very careful steps to ensure that the purely policing
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side of the situation is being taken care of. That is a matter particularly for the Home Secretary. I am not suggesting any kind of attempt to put the blame on any particular set of people but it is a danger against which special precautions must be taken. I hope that the Government will not stop short on anything which may be necessary to provide extra bodies to the police: there are the special constables, and there might even be the auxiliary services for that purpose. I hope the noble Lord will bear that suggestion in mind.
3.51 p.m.
Lord WIGODER: My Lords, we also are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, for repeating the Statement. I should like to make three observations. First, we on these Benches express very firmly the view that the Government ought not to consider exceeding the existing pay guidelines in any negotiations with the firemen. It is easy to say that this is a special case, just as practically every other case is a special one, and before long the whole counter-inflation policy will be in ruins.
Secondly, may I indicate to the Government what I am sure they are aware of, namely that on issues of this nature public opinion is now very much on their side. I think it was Chesterton who wrote:
"we are the people of England, that never have spoken yet".
My Lords, the people are beginning to speak and I believe that they are beginning to say that, however justified grievances may be—and most members of the community have grievances these days—they do not warrant industrial action of this nature.
My third observation is simply that those of us on these Benches who believe very firmly in the right of individuals who withhold their labour are bound to find it much more difficult to go on supporting that right if those in the public services whose action can imperil life and property proceed to act in this way. I should like to ask the noble Lord one question: is it correct that there are a substantial number of private fire fighting organisations, particularly in industry? Has he any information as to the extent of those organisations and will it be possible to

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incorporate them and their personnel in any emergency schemes in the immediate future?
3.53 p.m.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: My Lords, I am grateful for what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham, has said and for what the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, has said. The noble and learned Lord said that I had made a serious Statement and indeed that is so. There is a significant risk to both life and property and it is right at this time to recognise that fact and the gravity of the situation. I agree with the noble and learned Lord that a period of seven days is a very limited period indeed in which to make the necessary preparations. However, it is only right to say that the union executive recommended that negotiations should continue and that that advice was rejected by the conference, which then passed this particular resolution.
I am grateful for what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham, said about the position of his colleagues and himself in supporting all the appropriate measures which the Government might have to take and I shall gladly look into the point which he raised on compensation. Also I will take note of the point about the role of subversive organisations in situations of this sort. It is a point of which we are well aware and we shall certainly take appropriate action.
I very much agreed with the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, in what he said about special cases. Certainly, we are most anxious to reach a settlement with the firemen and we have done the best we can within the guidelines on pay policy. But, of course, the noble Lord is absolutely right. The special case argument could totally destroy any chance of maintaining a proper degree of control over pay in this country and we would not contemplate an outcome of that sort. At a time like this, as the noble Lord said in his second point, it is crucially important that the public should support the Government in their policy with regard to the guidelines. Only by doing that shall we bring inflation in this country under control.
Lastly, the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, raised the question of private fire fighting organisations. They do indeed have a role, but in fact it will be for the Armed
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Services to take over some of the responsibilities of the regular Fire Service. What one could describe as the industrial fire fighting organisations would of course have their normal job of looking after the situation in factories and plants.
Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBY: My Lords, I should like to ask my noble friend whether the Government are endeavouring to put this dispute in the wider context of the problem of public services' pay in the present situation. Is he aware that the difficulty about the public services today is that they feel they are in the grip of the economic policy of the Government, who are not approaching the question of pay from the point of view of an employer? This is exactly the situation which the Priestley Commission tried to break years ago, and we are back where we began. I ask my noble friend whether the Government are concerned not only about this dispute but about others which are now brewing and which may break out in other parts of the public sector. It is simply a problem of the relationship between State employees and the Government as their employer and the Government in charge of the economic policy of the country. How are they going to separate those two?
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: My Lords, as my noble friend is aware this has been a long-standing anxiety and I am well aware that many unions and many employees in the public sector have felt in the past, as doubtless some of them do at the moment, that they have been singled out for specially severe treatment. All I can say is to repeat a point that I made in answer to a question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder. In this country we have got to take a firm position on pay settlements in both the public and the private sectors. If we do not do so there is no chance whatever of bringing down the rate of inflation, and it is essential for us to remember that in this country we still have an inflation rate higher than that in many other parts of the industrialised world. The only way out of the situation that I have described is to take a firm position in public and private sector pay settlements. The Government are determined to take an equally vigorous position in both the public and the private sectors.
Lord BOYD-CARPENTER: My Lords, the noble Lord will be aware that the civil airports possess substantial and efficient fire fighting equipment. Is it the intention, as sometimes they have done even before the present situation, that they should come to the aid of local fire brigades and is it intended to make full use of them?
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: My Lords, I will certainly take that point into account. Obviously I want to choose my words rather carefully, but I will have that particular matter looked into.
Lord CARR of HADLEY: My Lords, I should like to press the noble Lord on the question of the use of private fire brigades. In his answer to the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, he seemed to imply that their job in industry was to look after their own premises and nothing else, but they might well have some reserve capacity. Would there he any need for special powers, emergency powers for example, to enable them to assist the fire fighting authorities and to protect them from any responsibilities which might arise out of their actions? I trust that the Government will look into that. Finally, I wish to say how strongly I agreed with the noble Lord when he referred to the need to support the policy in both the public and private sectors. I hope the noble Lord, Lord Harris, will not mind if a say to him that it was just as necessary in 1973 and 1974.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: My Lords, so far as industrial fire fighting organisations are concerned I will gladly have that point looked at. As I understand it, the constitutional situation is that the Armed Services will respond to a request from the individual fire authorities next week. I will look into the question of these organisations. They could conceivably have a role, but I should like to have the point examined with some care. I will certainly go into the wider implications of the noble Lord's question.
The Lord BISHOP of LEICESTER: My Lords, we on these Benches usually keep out of anything of a purely industrial or even economic nature, but this is in part a moral issue and I should like to venture to say, with great diffidence, that if the firemen should find some grounds on which even now they could divert
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themselves from the course that they have espoused they would be performing an act for the benefit of this country at least comparable to any of the brave and self-sacrificing acts that they count in their noble history.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: Yes, my Lords; as I indicated, or at least as my right honourable friend indicated in the Statement he made in another place and which I repeated this afternoon, it is a matter of particular regret to us that we have come to a situation where there is to be this dispute with the firemen. Over a number of years, they have done an admirable job on behalf of the general public. It is particularly unfortunte that we have arrived at this very unhappy situation. Certainly I join with the right reverend Prelate in the point that he made. I very much hope that even at this stage they will draw back from this strike, which could have most grievous consequences to many people in this country.
Lord LEATHERLAND: My Lords, is my noble friend aware of the fact that there are about 20,000 retained firemen in this country who are fully trained and who receive a yearly retaining fee and a daily call-out fee when they go out to work with their brigades? Can he tell us what is the attitude of these retained men? Are they intending to remain loyal to their local authority fire brigades or are they going to side with the full-time firemen?
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: My Lords, I very much hope that they will be available for work in the normal way. My noble friend is quite right; the retained men are a very important element of the entire Fire Service in this country, and certainly their role in the next few weeks could be of decisive importance.

ADDRESS IN REPLY TO HER MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH
Debate resumed.
4.2 p.m.
Lord WIGODER: My Lords, if we may now divert for a few hours to the debate on the gracious Speech, I should like, if I may, to suggest to your Lordships that this Speech was indeed a

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unique occasion. It was unique because for the first time, so far as I know, a legislative programme has been put forward by a Party in government after full co-operation and consultation with a very much smaller Party not in government; it is perhaps worth spending just a moment or two in seeing whether this is a constitutional innovation of value and whether it has anything to offer to our way of life in the future.
The first feature of the gracious Speech is perhaps rather like the observation of Sherlock Holmes about the curious incident of the dog that did nothing in the night time. The first feature of the Speech is that there is not one single Socialist measure contained in it. There is not one single item of legislation proposed which could have aroused the slightest enthusiasm in any member of the Tribune group. I believe that this is a great step forward. We can operate our Parliamentary system only if there is a basic consensus between the political Parties as to the way of life that we envisage in this country, and I believe that many of us have been appalled at the slow drift in recent years whereby in the Labour Party the extreme Left has begun to take over more and more influence and in the Conservative Party the extreme Right has begun to take over more and more influence. I believe that there are many of us who can see no future for democracy in this country if there is to be a series of alternating Governments of extreme Left and extreme Right. That way there will be no stability, there will be no continuity and, in due course, there will be no democracy.
What one has in this gracious Speech is a series of measures which command the support of a very wide spectrum of public opinion in all the political Parties, and I believe that this is a development that we should welcome. It indicates that the centre of British politics is being recaptured, and it indicates, I hope, that there is a way forward in this country which involves whichever Party happens to win power under our electoral system proceeding not entirely on the basis of its own lunatic fringe but on the basis of co-operation and consultation with other Parties so that a general consensus can be reached. That is the first feature of this gracious Speech which we on these Benches welcome.
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The second feature is this: There are certain major measures. There are the devolution measures about which my noble friend Lord Mackie will be making observations later, there is the European Parliament measure about which my noble friends Lord Gladwyn and Lord Banks will want to make observations tomorrow. But the second feature of the speech is that there is no appalling glut of legislation such as has cluttered up the Statute Book in recent years. During those years, under Governments of both Parties, we have had far too much legislation achieving far too little. I welcome the fact that for once we are going to have a digestible programme of legislation to get through in this Session.
The third feature of the gracious Speech is that there are measures, as I indicated, that have been brought forward and are being proposed that will command much widespread support; there is the assistance that is promised to small firms, and no doubt also to the self-employed, not, so far as I know, mentioned anywhere in the works of Marx. That is a measure we must all welcome; indeed, without wishing to sound as though I am standing on the hustings, I can remember, if it is not a confidential matter, being at a meeting of our own Party at which it was decided to suggest to the Government that Mr. Harold Lever might be the appropriate person to be put in charge of that problem, and we very much welcome the fact that his appointment followed.
There is the proposal about profit-sharing incentives through the tax system. That does not appear in the works of Engels. It is something that most people in the community will welcome. There is assistance to first time house buyers. That is something, I believe, which Lenin never contemplated. There is the promotion of competition policy in economics and in industry, which is something, I think, that never occurred to Stalin. These are all matters which will command a great deal of general support.
I would not want to suggest that a small Party such as ours—small in terms of seats if not in terms of votes—is directly responsible for all that is in the gracious Speech, but I believe that the inference is unavoidable; that is, that

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the fact that these non-Socialist progressive measures to increase the competitiveness of our economy have been included in the Speech is an indication of the degree of co-operation and consultation that has gone on between the Government and the Liberal Party.
I had not intended to deal this afternoon with the matters which the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack has raised, but I must perhaps take up one or two of the points he mentioned. He has mentioned the time it takes for cases to come for trial. That we all deplore, but we must bear in mind the fact that certainly a case of any complication takes very many weeks to prepare if the defence is to be adequately presented. Although if the trend is getting steadily longer that is obviously something to be looked at with care, it is unrealistic to expect that the time of waiting between committal and trial could ever be reduced to a matter of a few days or even sometimes to a matter of a few weeks.
Secondly, the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor mentioned the proposal put out by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Widgery, as to some sort of financial incentive for shortening trials. I am bound to say that I find that a somewhat odd suggestion. At present, whenever the Bar seek to shorten a trial the result is a volley of abuse from the defendant who claims that he has been blackmailed into behaving in some way that he did not intend to behave, followed by a volume of pseudo-research from Birmingham University. It is not a realistic suggestion, any more than it would be realistic to suggest to orchestral conductors that they might be paid a bonus depending on how quickly they could get through the slow movement of the Eroica Symphony.
Thirdly, the noble and learned Lord raised the question of hooliganism. I wish merely to suggest, if I may, as I am sure he will appreciate, that this is a problem of extreme complexity. I doubt very much whether it can be solved in purely sociological terms. I do not believe that if we consider a trainload of hooligans returning from a football match we shall find that so many of them come from high rise flats, so many from deprived homes and so many from schools
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where the classes are too large, and so on. The problem is far more complex than that and requires, perhaps, a great deal more research before we can hope to deal with it.
Then, on the issues raised by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, may I venture to suggest to him that in so far as our trials have become somewhat lengthy, it is because of some of the quite unnecessary complexities in our criminal procedure. Individuals are not to be blamed; the system is to be blamed, and the system might properly be looked at to see to what extent simplification can be achieved.
As I have said, I had not intended to make observations on those matters. I had intended to make observations on only two specific items in the gracious Speech, the first being the proposal to reform Section 2 of the Official Secrets Act 1911. It might be helpful if I remind your Lordships of the words in the Labour Party Manifesto at the last Election, because we all know the extreme importance
which is to be attached to any words in a Party Manifesto. It says:
"… to replace the Official Secrets Acts by a measure to put the burden on public authorities to justify withholding information".
That is a quite different matter from merely seeking now to repeal and replace Section 2 of the 1911 Act. Section 2 of the Act is the one that is often referred to as a "catch all" section. It is frequently said that it in fact covers every single piece of information: the giving of it, the disclosure of it by a civil servant and the receipt of it by a member of the public. It is equally true to say that to anyone who read the Sunday Telegraph case of some years ago, in which I played a small part, what emerged in that case was not only that it might be a "catch all" section but that it was also a meaningless section, and there were very real problems of construction in making any sense at all out of it as at present drafted. For that reason Section 2 has become almost dormant and has hardly ever been used in the succeeding five or six years.
Therefore, I think one ought to realise that if one talks about simply repealing Section 2 and replacing it with a limited coherent section, one will in fact finish up with something more oppressive than the

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present situation. Therefore, one must go very much further than merely redrafting and rephrasing Section 2. I suggest that we must first of all take a limited class of information—defence information is obviously the most important, and budgetary information is also perhaps of importance and say, in relation to that class of information only, that it will be a criminal offence deliberately to divulge or to receive information of that nature. Of course, that still leaves a difficult question as to whether such information has been correctly classified, and whether that decision can properly be left to the Minister or whether there must be some impartial arbiter of the classification if it is challenged. However, that is the first class of information. There would then, I suggest, be a second class of information which again should be protected. It includes documents about law enforcement, Cabinet documents and matters of that nature. I should have thought that the wrongful disclosure of such information could properly be left to the ordinary processes of Civil Service discipline and it would be quite unnecessary for the criminal law to be involved at all.
We then reach the crucial feature: the remaining information which is not protected and as regards which there should be a general right of access by the Press and the public. I do not envisage that Mr. Tariq Ali should be allowed to rummage around the desks in Whitehall. However, I suggest that there are a large number of Government documents—reports, statistical surveys, feasibility studies, product tests and so on—which can be of material assistance to the public in helping in the formulation of policy. One of the problems at present experienced by those of us who are interested in any one particular topic is that we never get the opportunity to help to formulate policy. We only get the opportunity to comment on it after it has been formulated by the relevant Civil Service department.
Fourthly, I hope that this legislation, when it emerges, will recognise that there are certain rights of privacy in relation to any information
which has been provided to the Government by individuals on a confidential basis. The effect of an Act of that sort which we on these Benches would very much welcome would be very
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substantially to open up Government and give the Press and the public access to a great deal of information which, at present, is quite purposely kept secret.
I have mentioned the right of the Press to such information. Perhaps for the last few minutes of my speech I can revert to that subject. Although there is no reference to it in the gracious Speech, as I understand it under the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Amendment) Act 1976 it is almost inevitable that within the forthcoming Session it will be the Secretary of State's duty to present his draft Press charter to both Houses of Parliament, in the absence of agreement between all the parties—and it is now quite clear that there will not be agreement between the parties.
When the Secretary of State comes to draft that charter I hope that he will bear in mind that certainly we on these Benches will not resile from the principles that we expressed in the course of the debate on that Bill. We should expect that any such charter will make it clear that whatever arguments there may be in industrial terms for the closed shop in ordinary industry, there is no room for a closed shop in journalism, where its operation, for industrial purposes, will lead to some form of censorship. We should expect to see that journalists will have the right to join the NUJ, the IOJ or neither if they so prefer. We should expect to see that editors are given complete freedom both from proprietorial pressures and from trade union pressures. We should expect to see that outside contributors have their rights of access fully recognised. It is only if we find the Secretary of State laying a charter in those terms that we on these Benches would feel it possible to support it.
Having said something about the freedom of the Press and the right of journalists to express themselves, I hope I may be forgiven for saying, finally, that with those rights there must go a certain degree of responsibility. In view of developments in previous weeks, that is perhaps a matter about which we on these Benches feel rather strongly. May I say at once that we have no sort of objection to the Press indulging in a responsible investigation into allegations of serious criminal offences—of course not. But we have every objection to a sustained campaign of innuendo, half-truth and malicious tittle-tattle.

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Perhaps I may give your Lordships just one example of that. A few weeks ago, on 24th October, the Evening News on its placards and on its front page had the banner headline:
"Mystery woman in Scott Affair".
If one troubled to read the article it turned out that a man, whose name I do not think had ever been mentioned before in connection with this matter and who admitted that he had a very long criminal record, had told the Evening News that he had met a man who had told him that he had met a woman who had told him that she had been approached about some matter relating to Mr. Scott. On that basis I think I can tell your Lordships that I have met a man who has told me that he has met a man who has told him that he has met a woman who has told him that she has heard that every night the editor of the Evening News sleeps with his pet budgerigar. What a marvellous banner headline that would make for the Evening Standard!
In recent years in the Press the curious tendency has arisen of always putting a person's age in brackets after his name. Perhaps I might make the constructive suggestion that in future instead of the age there should appear in brackets the number of thousands of pounds which have been paid, either directly or indirectly, to whoever it is who has purveyed the salacious rubbish that sometimes follows. That is all I desire to say about this particular issue at the moment.
It is perhaps clear that for the first few months we in your Lordships' House shall not have a particularly busy Session, until such time as the major Bills come through from the other House. I would hope that in some of the ways that I have indicated, and in other ways that will occur to your Lordships, we might usefully use that time in extending a little but perhaps significantly some of the frontiers of freedom.
4.24 p.m.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL: My Lords, it is with great trepidation that I rise to make my maiden speech and I beg your Lordships' customary and generous indulgence. The gracious Speech contained many matters of great importance, but I hope I shall be forgiven if I take this
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opportunity of drawing to your Lordships' attention a subject which was not included in it but which I am sure fills the minds of many parents of young children with anxiety. I refer to the question of the child vaccine programme and in particular to the whooping cough vaccine which has recently received renewed publicity following the report submitted by the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration.
As is now well known, the whooping cough vaccine can cause severe nervous disorder in children which sometimes results in permanent brain damage. Admittedly the percentage is small and opinions vary between one child in every 50,000 vaccinated and one child in every 300,000. I suspect that the true figure may lie somewhere in the middle. How-ever this may be, there are now in excess of 400 children who are known to have been seriously affected by the vaccine and who will not be able to lead any kind of normal life. In addition to this, there are many thousands of incidences of convulsions which have resulted from the vaccination but which have caused no long-term damage.
It is stated that the risk of adverse reaction is minimal provided that the child is completely healthy when the vaccine is administered. But I do not believe it is quite that simple, because not only must the doctor look at the child's day-to-day health and make sure that he or she is entirely free from respiratory or chest infections, but he must also satisfy himself that there is no likelihood of any nervous disorder such as epilepsy, et cetera. Unfortunately, the illnesses which may make it ill-advised to administer the whooping cough vaccine do not always manifest themselves at three months of age, which is the time when the first inoculation is advocated. In addition, a family history of any nervous debility renders the child vulnerable to the adverse effects of this vaccine.
In my view the risk also compounds itself when it is realised that, through sheer weight of work in some areas, it is not always possible for the family doctor to administer the vaccine. Under those circumstances he may legitimately delegate the inoculation to nurses in clinics or even to child health visitors who have been approved as competent. No doubt these nurses and health visitors are

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competent, but I feel there is an increased chance by delegating that some relevant detail concerning the child's health could be missed and thus cause tragic consequences.
I was curious to discover whether it might be possible to isolate the damaging elements of the vaccine, but on reading the Review by the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, which was published in May this year, I found there to be a considerable gap in our knowledge. I should like briefly to quote from this Review. Paragraph 25 states:
"A major difficulty at present in preparing an entirely satisfactory pertussis [or whooping cough] vaccine is the inability to identify precisely, by reliable laboratory tests, the antigen or antigens necessary for the protection of children".
It goes on to say:
"Because of these gaps in our knowledge, pertussis vaccines are at present prepared as whole bacterial suspensions. It is, therefore, important that investigations should continue to be made on the purification of the vaccine and the identification of the protective antigens. Work along these lines, supported by the DHSS, has been conducted and is at present proceeding in a number of centres, including in particular the Microbiological Research Establishment, Porton Down".
Another aspect of concern is the fact that inoculation is by no means a guarantee that the child will be protected from the illness. Indeed, I was amazed to read that in 1964 to 1969 the incidence rate of whooping cough in fully vaccinated children was almost as high as in those who had not been vaccinated. I should say in fairness, however, that following the introduction of what is called the "absorbed vaccine" in 1969 the protective efficiency improved.
I believe that The Times made a valid point in its leading article on Friday, 28th October, when it stated that one of the most serious side effects stemming from the doubts about routine whooping cough vaccination was the public apprehension which has now ensued regarding vaccination in general. It is undoubtedly important that there should be the highest possible acceptance rate of diphtheria, tetanus and polio vaccines and it is, indeed, sad that in trying to provide a cure for whooping cough we may have served only to reduce the acceptance rate of these other serums. Indeed, I should like briefly to quote from the Review by the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation. It states:
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"The average acceptance rate before 1974"—
that is to say, for vaccination acceptance—
"was from 70 to 80 per cent. but the present rate is nearer 50 per cent. and in some areas may be much lower".
There are differing views on the advisability of continuing with the whooping cough vaccination programme. Some doctors are in favour of its withdrawal. I believe they are in a minority. I believe that some members of the Department of Health and Social Security may in fact hold the same view. Certainly there are many members of the public who would favour that course. The main reasons of those in favour of such a move are, I understand, the belief that the existing strain of whooping cough is less severe than that of 25 years ago; secondly, the vaccination does not give absolute protection from the illness, and, thirdly, that not enough is really known about how the vaccine works.
On the other hand, those in favour of retention of the vaccine say that is reduces the seriousness of the illness if contracted and that it does give a reasonable measure of protection, and that the risks of severe damage to a few children outweigh the benefits for the many. I must confess that I find it difficult to come to a conclusion, but I tend towards the view that the vaccine should be withdrawn pending the discovery of a more stable serum or vaccine, and I would ask the Minister whether he has considered this possibility, and whether he considers adequate funds are being given to the research programme at Porton Down and elsewhere.
In conclusion, my Lords, I should like to say just a few words on the question of compensation for the children who have been permanently damaged. I understand that the Government have accepted in principle that compensation should be paid to them, but are unable to do so until the Royal Commission which was set up in 1973 to examine this question submits its Report. There are no doubt many and exhausting avenues of inquiry to be made by them and I can only speculate on these, but I feel a conclusion to the question would meet with unanimous approval. I therefore hope that we may look forward to publication of the report in the not too distant future. I thank your Lordships for your kindness and must apologise for any deviation I may have incurred, and

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hope that I have not committed an unforgivable sin by bringing this subject before your Lordships today.
4.32 p.m.
Lord SOPER: My Lords, it is my pleasure and privilege to be the first to congratulate the noble Earl on his maiden speech. I envy him his youth. I congratulate him on the enthusiasm which he has brought to bear on a topic which wild horses would not persuade me to discuss any further, not having the necessary knowledge. I regard it as a proof of unerring skill that he has lighted upon one of the great advantages belonging to your Lordships' House—the fact that it is possible to ventilate such problems as these and to see that, having ventilated them, they do not fall into complete disuse and are completely forgotten. I am sure that there are many who will take an added interest in the home affairs as associated with this particular kind of vaccine. It may be of interest to the noble Earl that I shall certainly acquaint one or two of my children who have youngsters who might, in fact, profit from learning what has been so carefully expressed. We congratulate the noble Earl and hope that he will speak many times in the future with equal command.
Earl ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lord for one moment?
Lord SOPER: Yes, certainly.
Earl ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, I was concerned that we, as a House, seem to have lost the courtesy that we always used to extend to people making maiden speeches. We did not move into or out of the Chamber during a maiden speech. I hope that perhaps we may return to that courtesy to new speakers.
Lord SOPER: My Lords, from the position of innocence in this particular matter, let me now proceed if I may. I was much interested in the speech by the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder. I was not quite sure whether he was commending the Labour Party for its abstinence from Marxist influences or whether he was indicating that we were in the process of coming rather nearer to them. But was
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it not a little incautious of him to refer to Mr. Lenin? It was Mr. Lenin who in 1923 introduced in the new economic policy a consolation prize for small industries, and an attempt to make them more viable. He repented of his enthusiam for this particular programme, later on, but it is perhaps worth recording that the Labour movement is a movement and not a fixed entity.
I, for one, should like to put on record that I have no fear of the Marxists taking over. The Marxists are having a great deal of trouble themselves at this moment in finding out what they ought to believe, and they are vociferous by nature. It is one of the consolations that I find in the gracious Speech that it moves in upon areas which have previously been fertilised by Left Wing and what I would regard as Socialist principles.
I am much tempted to break a lance with the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers. I agreed with his moral philosophy in principle; I disagreed with some of the riders that he deduced from the propositions. But he will understand—and I am sure he will not regard this as impudence on my part—that I felt a sense of great astonishment when he talked of that unity. His exact words were, "a unity beyond measure". I do not believe that we live in a society where there is a unity beyond measure. I believe that many of the things that he said apply to a particular class or group. He is none the worse for that, and he will not think me impudent if I say that I do not belong to that group, but I nevertheless recognise that within the structure of that group there are certain inbuilt considerations, moral, political and economic. I think it necessary to remind myself, and perhaps your Lordships' House, that we are still not a classless society, and that a very great deal of what is natural and apposite in what he said does not apply, and would be completely inconsequential, in the minds of a great many of the people with whom I have been talking, as I habitually do on Wednesdays, on Tower Hill. It is a class society, and that is one of the issues upon which I believe the gracious Speech must be judged and must accept criticism in such a debate as this.
I would select one issue, or perhaps two. It is more evident, it would seem to me, in the realm of housing and homelessness that what I have just said about a class society

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is still true. May I give some figures? If they are contested, I shall be only too happy to find that I am wrong. I believe that 50,000 families were accommodated last year in the insufferable conditions of bed and breakfast accommodation. That is to say, 50,000 families were completely and utterly homeless. There are 700,000 families living in dwellings that have been officially condemned as unfit for human habitation. Another 1 million families are living in premises where there is no indoor toilet and no bath. I regard this as intolerable, and I regard it as intolerable because it is an offence in a civilised society which could be remedied. There was a time when the condition of poverty and the condition of homelessness were as inevitable as they were deplorable, but we have the resources today, and, in my judgment, that adds to and compounds the evil.
The facts of what is happening in that continuing condition are equally disturbing. There has been a reduction of something like 17 per cent in housing. In the last Conservative Government's final year, they were producing one-third more habitable places than have been produced in the last year of this Government. In fact, the overall condition is that there is no increase in the number and in the total range of habitable premises. These are matters upon which generalised statistics may be faulty but they lead me, at least, to the conclusion that here is an evil which is intolerable and to which the Government, with all their other resources and indeed with many of their already existing plans, need to pay greater attention.
I welcomed with enthusiasm the transfer of the authority from the local social services to the local housing departments because it involved the obligation on the part of that housing department to ensure that people who were homeless were accommodated. That has in a large measure been done, as I say, through the extremely intensive and expensive programme of the bed-sit, but the general reduction which was hoped for has not been accomplished. Therefore I think it proper in a discussion on home affairs to consider the affairs of those who are homeless, and I ask myself what can be done and I find in the gracious Speech two suggestions which marginally or perhaps more directly affect this issue.
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First, the encouragement of first time home buyers. This is excellent and I congratulate the Government entirely on that. However, there is even within that provision a snag which the Government should look at carefully. The actual mix of housing societies and housing authorities in respect of the kind of building society that can be used as a method of home buying has a predilection for other places than the inner cities. In the United States that mix of available resources for building societies has to be made public. In this country it does not. I have evidence which I could supply of vast delays among people who, going expectantly and encouraged so to do, have found that within the inner city they are much less likely even to be made the offer which the improved condition of a first time home buyer is provided. Perhaps the Government will look at that to see whether here is not one measure which would increase the efficacy of what is indubitably a first-rate proposal on their part.
The other element in the gracious Speech which
impinges on housing is the element of the inner city and its renovation. Yesterday in another place the Secretary for the Environment spelled out in considerable detail the partnership programme and the direct grant programme available for the renovation and reclamation of the inner city. What disturbs me is this: I hope that the inner city, when it is renovated, will not be another centre of industrial growth picked out perhaps with occasional places of recreation. It is in the inner city where one of the paramount needs is for a rehousing programme to bring back life to these lifeless and gutless interior cities of which I have some knowledge because it is within the inner city that I work from time to time. There is great need to recognise that the inner city, unless it becomes more than a conurbation and in fact an environment of people, will do very little to recover from the kind of paralysis and artificiality which has strangled many an American city.
However, there are other methods which I would advertise on this matter of housing. I commend to your Lordships the housing emergency programme and, if I say little about it in detail, it is included in chapters 3 and 4 of a very interesting document called The Homeless

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and the Empty Houses, a book produced by Ron Bailey. In substance it is the answer, or the temporary answer, to one of the most exacerbating and in many cases disturbing elements in the present housing situation.
One cannot go far from this building without finding many boards indicating empty property. That property is now quickly vandalised and when we had to vacate for just a few days one of the hostels for which I am responsible, it was vandalised, and now we are employed trying to save something by putting in security guards, who will have to remain there until we can reinstate the intention of the hostel. This is an instance of the kind of problem which is widespread. The homeless family walking desolately across a street may see many at least short-life premises, premises which have been acquired by local authorities for demolition or which are in the process of a complete renovation of the neighbourhood, but there is no prospect at the moment that many of these premises will in fact be renovated or demolished.
Homelessness is one of the immediate issues; one cannot stay hungry for long without deteriorating and one cannot stay naked for long without getting cold. Nor can one stay homeless for long without being deprived of one of the necessities, so to speak, of the ordinary means of life. Forgive me if this sounds a bit like preaching, but I am scandalised at the way in which people will get very concerned about food provided for those who are hungry and clothing for those who are naked but seem to think that the provision of some kind of housing is the poor relation of the other two. In fact it is nothing of the sort it is as imperative and it has to be in short-term consideration if it is to be effective.
The programme of the housing emergency association has been sponsored by Shelter and I declare an interest in that at the moment I have the privilege of being the chairman of Shelter. This programme has manifest effects which can be documented. It is a programme whereby short life premises are leased to a particular housing association or, for that matter, to another group, and they are renovated, sometimes by voluntary labour, and then they are leased back
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to the local authority to provide, at least for a short time, accommodation for those who otherwise would be in bed-sits. The bed-sit accommodation costs £60 a week. Since 1975 the London and Quadrant Housing Association has been able to achieve accommodation for 915 families at a cost of £20 a week, which of course has been charged to the local authority.
In my judgment it is no good saying that we must press on with our general plans without this kind of shock treatment which is available and which has been demonstrated to be economically, politically and in every other way viable. I hope the Government will not only restore the kind of resources which have been impoverished during this time of crisis but will also look carefully at the prospect already set out in what is effective form by the London and Quadrant Housing Association and of which there is much more evidence of its viability but which I will not delay your Lordships by relating.
There is one supreme issue. A lot more money is needed if voluntary bodies are to co-operate in the provision of some kind of homeless renovation, and I make the plea that there are not a few voluntary bodies, of which I have some knowledge, which will inevitably have to go out of business unless there is an increase in the available resources. In principle, I am sure that what is required above everything else is the conviction on the part of those who are homeless that there is a prospect not only in the long-term of a better home, a better situation in home affairs, but that there are valuable and practical ways in which the situation could vastly be improved at this moment.
Wearing another hat, as the president of the League Against Cruel Sports, I looked in vain in the gracious Speech for any information about the prospect of something being done in relation to hare coursing. I sometimes wonder whether this problem of hare coursing is under some sort of diabolic influence. In 1966 there was a Live Hare Coursing (Abolition) Bill, in the 1967 another one, in 1968 another, and in 1970 yet another. In 1970 the Hare Coursing Bill was adopted by the Government at a time when they had a handsome majority, but it fell through procedural difficulty.

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In 1971, 1972, 1973 and 1975 there were further similar Bills, yet here we are still with this abominable practice which I think has been over-emphasised in the cruelty which is attached to it in regard to the suffering of the animals, but which in my judgment is a thoroughly unpleasant exercise that human beings ought to get rid of as soon as they can. A Bill of this nature has one great merit. It would not be costly, it would not involve any trouble with the balance of payments. But I believe, that it would have one very important effect, and I hope that the Government will find time for it, even if they say that there are many other things that are more worthwhile—I wonder whether there are.
It is the usual assumption that our habits and practices, our characteristic behaviour patterns to the animal world, will improve only when we have improved our relationships with one another in the human world. I would suggest that it may be exactly the opposite; that at the moment we need a kind of enthusiasm and I sense of victory in many of the human problems which vex us. Would it not be of supreme encouragement if indeed we were able to win some battles in the field of animal welfare? I believe that they would further encourage us in more important matters in our human affairs. I hope that the Government will feel concerned about this long-continued battle, and will practise the exorcism which is necessary if this Bill is now to come into effect and to encourage us all.
4.52 p.m.
Lord CHITNIS: My Lords, the first occasion on which one rises to address this House is inevitably a rather unnerving one, but I have already learnt in the short period during which I have been a Member that I can rely on your kindness and indulgence. We have been told in the Queen's Speech that the Government have the intention and plans to cope with the present high level of unemployment, and we debated many aspects of that problem yesterday. Naturally, the Government's plans will concentrate on particular sections of the unemployed population where the need seems to be greatest and where swift Government action will have the greatest impact in reducing the present high total of the unemployed. Certainly, no one would grudge preferential treatment or
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priority being given for any measures which would help the unemployed school-leaver. Through no fault of his own he finds himself unable to use the education with which he has been equipped and unable to occupy himself usefully.
I realise that in such a climate it is difficult to press on the Government's attention the claims of those who find themselves in employment difficulties through nobody's fault but their own. I am talking about those in prisons and borstals who are not, in most cases, irredeemably criminal, even if they may have committed some of the offences to which the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor referred earlier; who often find themselves approaching their release without proper advice, training or retraining; and who are thus under the triple handicap of trying to find employment when unemployment is high, of hearing the stigma of their conviction and of lacking guidance about how to earn an honest living.
I do not believe that to attempt to do something about this would be just sentimental charity. At the very least, it would simply he cost effective if it enabled these people to find work which would prevent them becoming a charge on the State, either on the dole, or—if desperation through lack of employment caused them to commit another offence—a charge on the Prison Service yet again. But, just as importantly, they have skills and talents which can be of use to an employer and thus to the country as a whole.
So I should like to ask the Government, first, whether they think they are doing enough to help such prisoners, while in prison, prepare themselves for employment on their release. Of course individual prison education officers, assistant governors and probation officers do what they can in individual cases. But, in general, most prisoners are merely given work which will occupy their time during the period of their sentence, rather than as a preparation for obtaining a suitable job on their release. With the exception of six juvenile detention centres, in only two of our prison establishments is there any basic provision of careers advice.
Can the Government not take immediate steps to set up a working party, with members drawn from a cross-section

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of management and trade unions, and from those in the voluntary sector who have experience of the employment problems of prisoners? It would have as its target the making of formal provision within the Prison Service for careers advice and guidance, so that there would be a particular person within each prison who was responsible for the future employment problems of prisoners.
When, as I know sometimes happens, enlightened and generous firms offer equipment and facilities for the retraining of prisoners, should not the authorities respond positively and quickly, rather than with suspicion, lethargy, and what, frankly, sometimes seems to be indifference. I know of one case where the offer of an expensive retraining machine which was made in May has not yet been properly responded to in, now, November. In this field, the Prison Service will need, and will surely get, the help and co-operation of both employers and trade unions. In many countries of Europe both sides of industry are co-operating to provide in-prison training. Were Government here to begin to co-ordinate a similar programme, I am sure that the response would be as good.
Secondly, when the prisoner is eventually released, the Government, as an employer, must give a lead in being prepared in all reasonable cases to be ready to consider ex-prisoners for suitable employment—not of course to give them preference over others, but to give them a equal chance of consideration. It is only too easy for private employers to refuse to countenance the employment of ex-offenders under any circumstances whatever if Government and other official bodies do the same, even though in a particular case no reasonable person would doubt that the person concerned was unlikely to offend again—indeed, particularly unlikely to offend again perhaps precisely because of the experience of imprisonment which he has been through.
I do not believe that enough has been done in this regard. It may be imprudent on occasion to put a man who once stole money in charge of the key to the safe. But large employers, as Government departments are, have thousands of jobs where opportunities for theft never occur,
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and a blanket refusal to employ in any post whatever seems to be unjustifiable.
I am absolutely sure that none of your Lordships has ever either been imprisoned or committed an offence for which he ought to have been imprisoned. But I am reasonably sure that one or two of your Lordships, and I include myself, have once or twice made a mistake or error of judgment which we are rather glad that everybody has forgotten about, so that it does not dog us to the end of our days. That is why, amid great concerns and matters of immense national importance, I hope that a moment or two can be spared for those whose plight I have referred to today.
4.57 p.m.
Lord HOUGHTON of SOWERBY: My Lords, there are some pleasures which are the greater for being unexpected, and when I came into your Lordships' House this afternoon I never thought that I would have the happiness of congratulating my noble friend Lord Chitnis on his maiden speech, but I am delighted that this opportunity has arisen. I confess that all afternoon I have been looking for him on the Liberal Benches, and I am somewhat surprised to find him sitting where he is. Nevertheless, that does not detract in the least from the warmth of my congratulations. Even though he is not among the phalanx of Liberal Lords who stand between Britain and Marxism, he is no doubt going to make his own contribution to the stability of our society.
I refer to Lord Chitnis as my noble friend because he has been my friend, a personal friend, for a very long time, and I envy him the reputation with which he comes to your Lordships' House. As director of the Rowntree Social Service Trust he has had the opportunity of encouraging many worthy and adventurous projects of great social importance, and I owe much gratitude to him for having sponsored a most notable contribution to the development of our Parliamentary institution. It was the Joseph Rowntree Social Service Trust that financed the political aides to Opposition spokesmen in the House of Commons, who were deplorably bereft of assistance to grapple with Ministers on the opposite side of the Chamber, who were fully briefed

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by their civil servants. My noble friend Lord Chitnis was a procreator of those who became known as the "Chocolate Soldiers" because they came from the Joseph Rowntree Social Service Trust; and they had come to help Opposition Front Bench spokesmen in the House of Commons.
I envy him, too, the fact that he was not chairman of a committee of whose report nobody took any notice, that he had not served for three years on a Royal Commission of whose report nobody took any notice. The only committee with which he had to deal was his own, which is by far the best committee to have, and therefore action—immediate action, flexible action—all came from my noble friend. I envy him a further opportunity in his life. I spent most of my life trying to get money out of other people. He has spent most of his giving it away freely to those who have the causes for which the Joseph Rowntree Social Service Trust was created.
On the experience we had of political aides to Front Bench spokesmen, my noble friend Lord Glenamara proposed in another place that there should be permanent assistance given to Opposition Parties and that new feature of our Parliamentary arrangements was sponsored and encouraged in its pioneering form by my noble friend Lord Chitnis. He has addressed your Lordships' House, as we would expect, with confidence, with fluency and with a deep knowledge of social problems. The problem about which he has spoken to us this afternoon is certainly one of deep social importance to the community; and I am sure your Lordships will join with me in expressing warm congratulatoins to my noble friend Lord Chitnis.
My Lords, in view of the Statement made by my noble friend Lord Harris, I am rather tempted to open up this subject of the present unrest in the public services, but I must bear in mind what Aneurin Bevin said when he was appointed Minister of Labour. He said this: "When there is a dispute brewing up, do not say anything in case you make it worse; when the dispute is on, do not say anything in case you exacerbate feelings; and when the dispute is over, well, there is nothing to be said anyway". That is probably a pretty good guide for this present moment
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on the fire brigades dispute, but I think I will permit myself two comments. One, my Lords, is that moderate leadership in the trades union movement is in for a rough time—a very rough time. Executive committees are not overturned by delegate conferences in the ordinary run of relationships between leadership and rank and file. And this is not the only instance; there are others now coming up. But I must not go on lest anything I say could be regarded as in some way a comment on the existing dispute, which might not be helpful. But I am very close to this, and I am very concerned. I am very concerned indeed, because things are happening which I have never seen happen before, and the situation must be worrying the Government a great deal at the present time.
Now, my Lords, I will go on with what I intended to speak about for a few moments. It is a subject which is not mentioned in the gracious Speech; it is the future of your Lordships' House. Not that I expected to find it there; but one day it may be there, and I think it is perhaps as well to be prepared for the day when it may be there, because sometimes one can be a little playful with grave possibilities and events in our constitution until the time arrives when they become really serious, and then we find that there probably has not been the amount of public debate on the issues involved to get them clarified and the minds of the public fully prepared to reach a conclusion on what may lie ahead.
I saw a quotation the other day:
"'You must believe in God, my child', said Jowett to Margot Asquith, 'whatever the clergymen may say'".
I feel rather like that about Parliament. I feel rather like that about your Lordships' House, because I believe in a second Chamber no matter what the Labour Party Conference may say. I think it is desirable at this stage for those of us who feel strongly about the Parliamentary institution to speak up against possibly the tide of opinion which has been growing lately in one of our major political Parties—and we all congratulate my noble friend Lady Llewelyn-Davies on her courageous stand for a difficult few moments at the Labour Party Conference the other week.

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Another thing to take note of, my Lords, was the gusto with which this motion was passed, and the ridicule and insolence of some of the speeches that were made in support of it. That is no comfort to Members of your Lordships' House, to have one part of Parliament assembled exposed to that kind of treatment in an assembly of a political Party which was televised to the whole nation. I think it is desirable, therefore, to make a few assertions about the present position. The first that I make is that the future of the House of Lords cannot be considered apart from the future of the House of Commons. The two are inextricably bound up in our Parliament assembled—and we must not overlook the Crown, either, in this connection. The historic institution of Parliament, with the tripartite responsibility of Crown, your Lordships' House and the House of Commons, cannot be disturbed without widespread changes, dramatic changes, in the constitutional position of the elected Chamber. If the future of the House of Lords is to be considered in that context, I think we should invite Members of the House of Commons (I am not going to call them "another place"; I am going to call them "the House of Commons") to consider their own position. How representative are they? How entitled would they be, by a majority of one vote, to deprive the citizens of their liberty and bring about grave changes in the body politic on the ground that they are a democratically elected body entitled to exercise the sovereign power of Parliament?
Your Lordships' House has few powers left, but whenever we use them we are exposed to the criticism that we are defying the elected House, that we are going against the will of the electorate. I believe that your Lordships' House requires greater legitimacy to exercise the powers we have. I am not in favour of giving your Lordships' House more powers. I think that what we need is greater legitimacy and greater authority to use the powers we have. After all, they were bestowed upon us by Parliament; but we hesitate to use them because, when we do, we meet not only criticism but abuse. In those circumstances, my Lords, it seems to me that, looking for a moment at the future of the House of Lords, we have to consider in what way this greater legitimacy
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and greater authority to exercise the powers that we have can be bestowed upon us. Various suggestions have been made. A number of my noble friends on the Labour Benches have considered what might be done bearing in mind the recommendations which were made and approved by this House in 1968 on the reform of the House of Lords.
Now I turn to Members on the opposite Benches. I do wish that the Opposition Benches would now begin to make a contribution to this debate. We do not know enough of what is in the minds of either the Conservative Party or the Liberal Party about the future of the House of Lords. The Labour Party talks of abolition. The Prime Minister, when asked before the Labour Party Conference whether there was a justification for the House of Lords, said, "There may be a case for it, but not this one". It may be that it is not impertinent to say of the House of Commons, "There may be a case for it, but not that one"; because if they are going to assume greater powers as an elected Chamber, and especially in a unicameral system of Government, they will have to consider whether they are representative or whether, because of a quirk in our electoral system, they may have the power and not the authority and yet claim the power and claim the authority. In certain circumstances in the exercise of authority by an elected Chamber in a unicameral system, if they exercised that authority on a highly contentious and bitterly controversial matter, people would take to the streets rather than accept the decision of a Parliament which they believed not to represent the general will of the people.
My Lords, it may be that our powers of delay and amendment are in some respects nominal, in other respects minimal; but the most that we can claim to do is to say, "Pause", for public debate to take place on whatever it is that is concerning Members of the Ho use of Lords in relation to the decisions of the House of Commons. That is a valuable interlude without ultimate powers if Parliament is going to use the Parliament Act to enforce legislation through. It is a valuable interlude for public debate to take place.
I wonder whether the appointment of a Select Committee to look at this problem would be a useful exercise or, alternatively,

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whether we could take this matter seriously and decide that we will spare some time to debate it as a serious matter and see what joint contribution can be made from all sides of the House to solving this problem. I shall never vote for the abolition of the House of Lords. I should prefer to be able to vote for a reformed House of Lords with, as I have said, greater support for the powers that have already been given to it and the numerous ideas as to how that may be done. But I do not associate myself with the point of view—and I have seen it lately—that to reform the House of Lords is going to be so difficult, so contentious, so tiresome, that the only thing to do with it is to scrap it. I will never associate myself with that. You do not destroy your institutions simply because you find it tiresome and difficult to reform them. They should be able to respond to the changes in public opinion and mood.
That is about all I need to say. I could go over the ground of possibilities and difficulties, but I think this—and I shall conclude on this note. Let us be absolutely firm in this debate in saying that the future of the House of Lords is part of the future of Parliament—and that means that it is part of the future of the House of Commons—and do not let us shirk the courage to say so. Then we shall perhaps get the debate on the level at which it ought to take place and will not regard ourselves as on the defensive, as something to be disposed of, to be swept into the scrapbook of history, merely because of the audacity of some people in the House of Commons who seem to think that we have no purpose to fulfil and that the sovereign power of Parliament can be safely entrusted to a House of Commons, which has so far shown itself incapable of bringing about the kind of reforms and drastic changes necessary in its own organisation and methods of work, and in the use of its own authority, to be an acceptable single-Chamber form of Government.
What protection is to be given in those circumstances by entrenched clauses in the Constitution: a Bill of Rights, conditions under which the House of Commons could not make certain changes in the body politic, as does occur in some other Chambers of a unicameral nature? All these things have to be considered. It is far too facile for people to talk about
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abolishing the House of Lords as if that would dispose of that; and then they could be free of what difficulties and worries they might have—which are few indeed—with your Lordships' House. There it is! That is my contribution. Can we have it out in the open? Can we have it out with courage? Can we stake our claim to continue in some reformed condition to be part of the institution of Parliament?
5.14 p.m.
Lord FERRIER: My Lords, it is my pleasure to begin by referring to the maiden speeches which we have heard this afternoon. They rank as memorable in that, for one thing, they were brief; but, whether skilled or unskilled, the speakers spoke from their hearts and from their own experience about subjects which they understood and subjects which they knew about. But, above all, in their different ways, they both portrayed that element of compassion for the not so fortunate which, I believe, is so notable a part of the proceedings of your Lordships' House. We congratulate them both and I am sure that we shall hear from them again.
It is not my intention to follow what the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, has said, although I go a very long way in agreeing with practically everything that he propounded. Particularly was I struck by his contention that one of the faults of this House has been that we have been too timid, too diffident, to use the powers that we have got. There is no question of our wanting more; we ought to use the ones we have got. In that respect, I am one who is inclined to think that perhaps the Opposition in this case have been a little too timid in the past.
My Lords, however that may be, to the gracious Speech. On the commitment to establish a directly-elected Assembly, so-called, in Scotland, a proposition which to me simply does not make sense on any count, I refer to the speech made by my noble friend Lord Ferrers, who indicated some of the complexities which beset it and us and will beset us or, let us hope, only may beset us in the future. That is all I am going to say about it. Apart from that—and we shall hear more from other speakers today, I know—there are four features of the gracious Speech which

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I welcome and refer to in chronological order.
First, I look forward to seeing the proposals regarding the restructuring of the electricity industry. It happens that in 1948–49 I was involved in the drafting of certain features of the Indian Electricity Act and, relatively more recently, in this House views have been expressed about such matters as off peak tariffs and standing charges which will, I hope, come within the scope of such considerations when they arise during the coming Session.
Secondly, when we come to discuss
"the further development of transport policy",
Your Lordships can be assured that the problems of by-pass roads for our busy and/or historic cities will not be neglected; and may I add that I am sure the urgent need for a southern orbital highway to my native city of Edinburgh will be raised. In general terms, and this has been touched on by the noble Lord, Lord Soper, this matter of reducing traffic in city centres is closely linked with that proposal in the gracious Speech,
"to renew and revive the inner urban areas".
The third matter to which I turn and which may be imminent, as the noble Lord the Leader of the House indicated in his speech last Thursday, is the prospect of legislation regarding the General Medical Council and its functions. This will, I hope, provide an opportunity to discuss the current work of the Cochrane Committee and to press the need for multidisciplinary efforts to reduce the incidence of and promote the cure of back pain which, as your Lordships may not know, is the subject of the Cochrane Committee's inquiries. The severe economic and domestic consequences of the huge number of cases of back pain of all sorts are only just being adequately recognised, and the figures published by the Back Pain Association, under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Wall, demand very serious attention from us all.
The fourth subject which I wish to raise stems from the reference in the gracious Speech to the developments which will arise from the Annan Report on the Future of Broadcasting. My own view is that the Annan Committee have made a mistake in playing down the
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relationship between broadcasting and Parliament, or so I read it. I told the noble Lord, Lord Annan, that I was going to refer to the report and he told me to go ahead. I said that I was going to have a "dig" at it, and that is the "dig". We shall hear much more about that when we come to discuss the report.
I only use this reference to broadcasting, and this expression of my belief in its importance in relation to Parliament, on which to hang the question that arose on Thursday when the disgraceful action of certain members of the Broadcasting Staffs Association blacked out the televising of the ceremony of the opening of Parliament by Her Majesty the Queen. The noble Lords the Leaders of all Parties did not mince their words in their speeches on that day, and I am sure that they would have said more but it was not really the occasion for acute criticism. This, I suggest to your Lordships, we should remedy today.
The noble Lord, Lord Byers, referred to those responsible as a "mean-minded bunch", and spoke of his "sense of outrage". Yes, my Lords, outrage indeed. But quite apart from the sabotage of a very costly effort extending far beyond the involvement of the BBC, the other broadcasting authorities, the Houses of Parliament and the works that had to be dismantled after a useless period of discomfort to us all, it was more than an outrage, it was more than sabotage, it was an insult to the Sovereign, an insult to Parliament, an insult to the nation, an insult to the Diplomatic Corps and, indeed, to the Commonwealth, despite the silly disclaimers of the perpetrators. And, what about the 200 million people round the world to whom my noble friend Lord Ferrers referred in his speech? I may be wrong but in my view it was more than an outrage; it was an action which amounted to contempt of the Constitution.
I hope that this occurrence will be strenuously pursued and those responsible punished, if that is possible. I vividly remember the speech by my noble and learned friend Viscount Hailsham (as he then was) when as Leader of the House he commended the first televising of the opening ceremony in 1958. May I quote from his speech (at columns 53 and 54 of Hansard, 29th October, 1958) on that occasion:

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"The whole tradition of the opening of Parliament from its earliest mediaeval times was that of a public occasion. That is the meaning of the presence of the Peeresses and the Diplomatic Corps. I am absolutely certain that if, by some miracle, the device of television had been open to the mediaeval Monarchs who initiated this ceremony, they would have used it, and that the extension of it to this ceremony is in absolute line with the historic meaning of the ceremony itself".
My Lords, that is part of what he said. I would add: Why does the Monarch proceed to the Palace of Westminster in a glass coach? It is so that the people shall see her. Why are the galleries filled with a cross-section of those associated with Parliament? It is so that the people shall see the Monarch in the flesh and hear his or her voice in accord with the Government of the day. It is now nearly 20 years since the people have learned to see all this on the television screen, every few years, as Parliament succeeds Parliament. When I reminded my noble and learned friend Lord Hail-sham of what he said in 1958, he replied: "Yes indeed, and in mediaeval days anyone who pulled out the plugs would have had his head cut off!"; and we laughed. But this is no joking matter. The "box" has become part of our society. The broadcast's role has become part of our society's bastion. What happened on Thursday in my view only goes to indicate that we must beware because the vandals are at the portcullis.
5.27 p.m.
The Marquess of LINLITHGOW: My Lords, I am afraid that I have not addressed your Lordships' House for some years. I noticed rather self-consciously the remarks of my noble friend Lord Mancroft who described those Peers who made their maiden speech and disappeared from view for 30 years. I may say that I am not as bad as that, but I am all the more privileged and grateful to be allowed to make a few remarks.
I want to concentrate on something which has concerned me now for some years, which is the question of devolution and the Assembly, and I wish to refer to the paragraphs in the gracious Speech referring to these matters. May I also confine myself entirely to Scotland because I know more about that and know very little about the reaction in that great country of Wales. It may interest your Lordships that my family, the Hopes,
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have lived in Scotland, so far as we know, since the early 15th century. When it came to the Act of Union and the debates in the then Scottish Parliament, the Hope family were very much behind the Act of Union, so much so that there was one famous speech made on one occasion during those acrimonious debates by a Member of the House, who objected to the Act of Union, who prefaced his remarks by saying: "Gentlemen, this benighted country and this unhappy Chamber are not strangers to blasted Hopes!"
With that background, I think I might say that I have a little right to say a few things to the House. I was extremely grateful—and I must say fairly surprised—to hear the remarks of my noble friend Lord Ferrers. Quite a large group of us in Scotland for some years have felt lonely simply because we have not been able to attract any attention from any leading political figures in any Party. I was therefore particularly encouraged to hear the words of my noble friend Lord Ferrers, who said things which I and others like me entirely agree with. We do not like what we think we are going to have foisted on us if we are not all very careful.
It may surprise noble Lords who suppose that there has been a growing demand in Scotland for some sort of Assembly to know that a poll was recently taken. It was organised by a society who are calling upon the Scots to pull themselves together and take a view. They call themselves the Scotland is British Society and they have very recently commanded the Fieldwork Scotland poll system. A very remarkable result has appeared—and this is only within the last week or two—in that the proportion shown by this poll of those Scots who would want an Assembly of some sort, not independence, has steadily shrunk over the last 12 months from 55 per cent. in favour to only 38 per cent. in favour.
The other interesting thing which f am sure we all ought to hear in mind—I think some of your Lordships may have seen these figures published in the papers—is on the question of which subjects concerning Scotland people thought the most important, to be discussed within the next 12 months. These are shown to be prices, jobs, law and order and housing:

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they range from 18 to 48 per cent., jobs being the main choice. Devolution is less than 3 per cent. That means, of course, that there is a massive indifference, and I believe that one of the reasons why the polls are beginning to show a hardening against the Assembly is the increase in the number of indifferent people who have now made up their minds, having looked hard and long at what they believe is coming to them, and do not like it.
Another very significant thing I should like to put before your Lordships is the fact that in the last two years at least, and possibly more, there has been an almost unanimous vote or expression of opinion among the leading industrialists and financiers in Scotland. I should like to quote to your Lordships a very few words—and I have been given permission to quote them—from a rather long speech which was made to a business organisation not long ago by one of Scotland's leading and most respected industrialists. He is talking about the uncertainty caused by the present situation and about the full effect he believes might come about when an Assembly is granted in circumstances which are too hurried, so that independence is then a much more likely outcome than it would be without the Assembly. What he says is this:
"An Assembly, then, will not bring to Scotland the stability she so badly needs. Not even its best friends believe it will in any way solve the great economic problems facing her today. For some of the Assembly's supporters, it is simply a means to a very different goal."
For Scotland it might well prove a disaster. Those are very strong words. Indeed, he also says this:
"Already business confidence in Scotland, especially in the West, is dismally low. This is the time we ought to be discussing what can be done to get Scottish investment and industry on the move again. All I know is that the finest means available to us at this minute of improving dramatically the climate in which that regeneration might take place would be to kill this Bill as quickly and decisively as possible."
These are not just unusual and rare examples. There is a grass root feeling in Scotland that they want no part of this Assembly. You will not hear that from the Scottish Nationalists. You may well not hear it from people of all Parties who feel that their seats are in danger from the Scottish Nationalists in the constituences in which they are standing and in which
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at the next Election they may have to face opposition. But you will find it throughout the length and breadth of Scotland if you go around, as I do, and ask people who are not concerned over whether they will lose their seat in Parliament, for the good reason that they have no seats to lose as they are not Members of Parliament.
I should like to mention also another matter which is to me highly significant. That is, that where the opposition not only to independence but to the Assembly is properly and continually put across, people begin to believe it and they will undoubtedly start talking about it among themselves and they will very likely be against it. A very clear example is my own constituency of West Lothian, where the sitting Member of Parliament—and many of your Lordships will know him—has quite consistently, year after year and Election after Election, had the courage to get up and say that he will have none of this; and he has never looked like being beaten by one of the most influential of the Scottish Nationalists, their Secretary and now their Chairman. He has proved that this can be put across and he has proved to me quite convincingly that in that area alone—
Lord MACKIE of BENSHIE: My Lords, would the noble Lord allow me to put a question to him: has his majority gone up during this period?
The Marquess of LINLITHGOW: My Lords, I said he has got in quite easily The Scottish National Party have in fact increased their vote by a small amount. Undoubtedly, they have won votes but nothing like enough to upset his seat. I am not saying—how can one say?—that the Scottish National Party is not going to take votes away: of course it will. But on these figures, as I understand them and believe them to be, I think, if I may say so without offence, that at West-minister people are getting too worked up and too frightened. This is where the heat is. If you go round Scotland you will find very little of it, and basically the Scots do not want this. I am sure of it. They have very good reasons for not wanting it, because they are a hard-headed, independent lot of fellows and they can think straight. They do not like the idea that their future is being decided possibly

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by a group of people who are more concerned with their own immediate political advantage at Westminster than they are with the future of Scotland. That, they feel strongly about.
Secondly, those who have thought the matter through—there are a great number of them and I entirely agree with them—are absolutely certain that, with the organisation as far as we can see it at the moment and the arrangements for an Assembly in this particular shape, it will be an inevitable step in the creation of the very tensions which it should be our wish to avoid. Inevitably, I believe it will lead essentially towards a growing demand for independence in the years ahead. I believe this is a stick of dynamite and that to light a match near it now, as is suggested in the gracious Speech, is an act of the sheerest folly. What is more, I think it is an abrogation of responsibility.
5.40 p.m.
The Earl of PERTH: My Lords, I shall follow the noble Marquess and talk only about Scotland. I am afraid that I totally disagree with him, but I shall not use the expression "those blasted Hopes". For my part, I welcome the determination of the Government to see through a Bill to set up a Scottish Assembly. I welcome the fact that it is to be a separate Bill, and I think that it is a considerable improvement on the one we saw earlier, in that it succeeds in simplifying and defining the respective powers and, perhaps most importantly, if there is a dispute it shall be the Judicial Committee of the House of Lords which is to adjudicate. I hope—and here I do not go along with either the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, or the noble Marquess, Lord Linlithgow—that we shall have a chance to debate this Bill in this House. I ask noble Lords on both sides of the House whether it might be useful, even now, for us to have one more debate before the Bill comes in front of us.
I think all of your Lordships know my view that a Scottish Assembly is a "must". I believe—and I shall go into the point made by the noble Marquess in more detail—that the majority of the Scots people want this, so that we can run our show under the umbrella of the Westminster Parliament. As we all know, some want to go further and have inde-
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pendence. The polls show that something like 30 per cent. are still supporting the Scottish National Party. Given that figure, I am puzzled at the poll to which the noble Marquess referred, as he seemed to say that the figure for those who want an Assembly is now 38 per cent. I cannot believe that only 8 per cent. of the country, apart from the Scottish Nationalists, want some form of Assembly. Your Lordships know what polls are, and they so often depend on the way in which the question is put and how well people understand it.
But we have certainly heard today that there are those who oppose any change. We have heard that there are Scottish businessmen, Scottish financial people, who are nervous and who, I believe, oppose it for the wrong reason; that is, they do not know what the future holds. They do not have trust in the Scottish people, in their hard-headedness—which is the term used by the noble Marquess—and in their ability to see straight. They are afraid that this may be a steppingstone towards independence. There is always that risk, but I am quite clear that if we do nothing we shall be in trouble.
I was appalled when the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, said, if I understood him aright, that he hoped that this devolution Bill would fail. I was appalled, because I fear that when we come to the next Election we shall see a wave of indignation which will bring to the Westminster Parliament as many as 30 members, if not a majority, of the Scottish National Party.
Earl FERRERS: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Earl, because I know that he would not wish to misquote me? In fact, I did not say that.
The Earl of PERTH: My Lords, I am so glad to hear that, because there was a specific question asked of him, which he did not answer, as to whether or not he was in favour. I want to check the record, but my impression was that he hoped the present devolution Bill would fail. I am glad he did not say that. One of his arguments was the problem of bureaucracy, and the fact that this Bill would increase bureaucracy. I would ask him why in Scotland we have so much bureaucracy—regional, district and so

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forth—at the present moment. The answer is that a Conservative Government gave it to us, against the wishes of the Scottish people. It was the English Parliament and the English who felt that they knew best for us.
I was asked whether I believed that an Assembly would lead to lesser bureaucracy. My answer to that is, Yes, I do. I believe that one of the first tasks of the Assembly should be to look at local government in Scotland and ensure its proper reform. That would be very popular. It would keep us out of mischief on other things, and the sequel to that would be a lesser bureaucracy and a better government of the country than we have today. I cannot develop this argument in detail today; there is not time, and I do not have the honeyed tongue to do so. But I would ask noble Lords who are nervous about this issue to read again the speech of the former Prime Minister, Mr. Edward Heath, on the Second Reading of the first devolution Bill last year. He understood the reasons that are making the people of Scotland want an Assembly to run their own show. May I leave it at that?
There is one other question on which I want to touch, and that is the problem of the money-raising powers of the Assembly. I think it was the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor who said that the Government are unable to identify revenue raising-powers for the Assembly. They are very ready, if we can put forward concrete suggestions, but they cannot identify them. With all respect, they do not want to do so. I believe that they are nervous of something which would give more power to the Assembly. But let me recall that those under the Assembly—that is, regional or local government—already have power, and it is an absurd situation to set up an Assembly with no revenue-raising powers, when the regional bodies under it have them. I am not in a position to make specific recommendations, but I touch on the issue in a different way.
I believe that we in Scotland are entitled—and I use the word "entitled" advisedly—to some special share of the oil revenues of the North Sea. Why do I say that? I say it, because our economy in Scotland has been disrupted by the discovery to an extent which has not
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happened in the other economies of the United Kingdom. North Sea oil has resulted in considerable development in the North-Eastern part of Scotland, to the detriment of other areas. People say, "Oh, but it has created a lot of jobs." In a sense that is true, but it has also succeeded in taking our eye off the general economic problems of Scotland, and today unemployment is over 10 per cent. in the Clydeside area. Therefore, I feel that we have a case for special treatment in regard to the oil revenues. It may be said, "We do not want to give them to the Assembly, because it will fritter them away or misuse them." My answer to that would be, "Very well. Why not hand them to the Scottish Development Agency?" The Scottish Development Agency are specially charged with the job of helping in the industrial development of Scotland. If they had considerable funds to distribute, they could do so only for that purpose and I believe that they would do a very good job. If, therefore, you do not want to give revenue to the Assembly, it should be given to the Scottish Development Agency so that they can get on with the job.
I have already mentioned oil, which brings me to a point which is not entirely related to Scotland. The Director General of the National Economic Development Corporation, Sir Ronald Mackintosh, said a day or two ago how deplorable it was that at present there is a complete lack of plans for spending the oil revenues which are already coming to this country. He understood that the Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Energy were shortly going to publish a discussion paper. That is very good news and, I might say, it is high time it was published. Furthermore, I suspect that the paper will contain a degree of political bias. Again that is very good news. It is only by considering views that you arrive at a valuable consensus.
I am wondering, however, whether we should try to solve the problem of hew best to use this windfall by ourselves. When we have been in economic trouble outside aid has been given to us. We have put forward a plan which the International Monetary Fund has had to approve. May I suggest that we should seek outside ideas about how best to use our oil revenues when things are going well for us instead of seeking outside help and advice

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only when things are going badly. I have specifically in mind that we might ask the World Bank or our friends in the European Economic Community whether they have any ideas about how best we could use the oil revenues. The fact that they were asked this question would not mean that we should have to follow their advice. However, it would mean that an outsider, who is often very much better at judging a position than we are when we are too close to the problems, would have thought about how best to use something which is unique in our history and which will not last for ever. If I were asked what the terms of reference should be, I would say that they might consider and advise on the paper which I understand the Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Energy are to submit very shortly for debate. I hope that the Government will think this over and perhaps consider that it is worth while seeking outside help.
My Lords, these are momentous times. I believe that we must have an Assembly in Scotland. I believe, further, that the way it is chosen is of paramount importance. I have tried to discover from the Bill what is the system of election. I do not think it is entirely clear, although I am rather glad about that. My hope is that we shall have some form of proportional representation on an area basis so that the country areas as well as the towns have value and proper representation. I believe this to be crucial to the success of the Assembly. My reason for saying this is that, very roughly, Scotland has three Parties, each attracting the support of about 30 per cent. of the populace. In addition, there is the Liberal Party which is strong in one or two areas.
If you followed the Westminster pattern, it is perfectly possible that you would find that a Party with very little more than 30 per cent. of the votes would have an absolute majority in the Assembly. That would not be good; it would destroy what I believe to be what we want in Scotland, which is a responsible Assembly that represents a consensus of opinion and which is not dependent upon the whims of such a small majority as little more than 30 per cent. Therefore, I hope the fact that the pattern has not been laid down, although Parliamentary constituencies have been spoken about, gives us some hope.
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As I have said, these are momentous times. I hope that Parliament will treat the Assembly seriously and generously in terms of both its powers and its revenues. Then I believe that the fear or the risk of independence will be very much less. If, on the other hand, we see reluctant giving and the niggardly handing out of powers, then I fear that in years to come we shall tread the path of Ireland. And nobody wants that.
5.56 p.m.
Lord RAGLAN: My Lords, I was going to present to your Lordships four main reasons why I, in contrast to the noble Earl, will oppose the passage of these two Bills into law. The noble Earl has suggested to me another reason why I am opposed to the idea embodied in these Bills. He mentioned the reorganisation of local government in Scotland, which apparently he does not like, and he blamed it on to the English Parliament. In fact, it was an entirely Scottish reorganisation which was dutifully passed through the Westminster Parliament. It is just this kind of antagonism, antipathy and laying blame on Westminster which will help to engender even more friction than exists at the moment.
There has been very little discussion if any, about how local and central Government interact. No notice has been taken of the likelihood, as I see it, that the effects on local government of having these Assemblies would, in practice, be counter-devolutionary. A significant feature so far of the debate on devolution, such as it has been, is that accusations from Scotland and Wales that central Government is remote have found little echo in England. In my experience that is because local authorities prefer central Government to keep a proper distance, as that allows them independence of thought and action. That is surely what devolution should mean; they do not want a regional government on their backs.
If set up, these Assemblies would inevitably take
power from the regions and districts of Scotland and from the counties and districts of Wales. I believe that the proponents of these Assemblies know that it would mean less independence for local government. Therefore, they are not thinking of

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devolution in any true sense. What they really want are national Parliaments, and calling that devolution is just a way of trying to sell the idea.
Thirdly, there is the problem of the part-time Scottish and Welsh Members of Parliament, wondering what to do around Westminster when they are not voting on English business. An arrangement that worked after a fashion for a dozen under-representative Northern Irish Members of Parliament I cannot see working for an additional 100 Members of Parliament from Scotland and Wales. It would cause severe and unbearable tensions at Westminster. Fourthly, I must not be too critical of the Liberals, I suppose, but if we were to follow them and certain commentators in their view that the demand for national Parliaments was reasoned and the motivations benign, we should welcome these Assemblies as a step towards some cosy confederation such as is found in Germany or the United States.
However, I do not listen to the Liberals; I listen to the Nationalists, from whom one learns about the true faith. Take Mr. Gwynfor Evans, the Leader of Plaid Cymru who, because he is a nice man, sometimes finds difficulty in articulating his unworthy prejudices. He says that he likes the English but he does not like Britain; in fact I think the word he used was "hate"—"I hate Britain". One would not find a Californian saying, "I like Texans but I hate Americans". One would not find a Westphalian saying, "I like Bavarians but I do not like Germany". A federation would not "stick" any longer than these proposed Assemblies because Scottish and Welsh nationalism is as aggressive, as arrogant, as xenophobic and as predatory as any nationalism anywhere. Not for them, as the noble Earl, Lord Perth, has indicated, a sharing of resources such as is essential in a federation, any more than they would (if they could help it) recognise the right of self-determination of any group of people living in a territory over which they claim sovereignty.
The last reason I shall give today why I oppose the Government's proposals is that one of the strongest inferences—if not the strongest—in the pressures which have caused the Bills to be brought forward is
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racialism: it is racialism of a kind in which the alleged characteristics go not with the colour of the skin but according to which side of a geographical line somebody happens to live. This racialism is partly a product of the days when it was thought that people North of the Scottish Border and West of the Welsh Border were Celtic and the others were Saxons. This theory is still widely believed, although it is untrue.
This racialism is an inevitable concomitant of nationalism. It comes about as a rationalisation or attempted justification for the belief that people who live in Scotland or in Wales should be governed separately and in a different way from those living anywhere else. The Welsh and the Scottish borders are not, and never were, demarcations between races; they were drawn in times long past for reasons which no longer pertain and they bear no relevance to the realities or the needs of modern life at all. Although one would not think so from the talk one hears, they are man-made inventions and could be done away with tomorrow without any ordinary person noticing the slightest difference. That is how closely we have become knit together.
Yet although we have seen during the recent reorganisation of local government that one can change or abolish any boundary, however old, apparently we cannot do the same with the so-called national boundaries. I ask, why not? Like the noble Earl, Lord Perth, I am for change but the change I want is a change in the direction in which we should go. We should be trying to do away with these boundaries. Instead of that, along come these two Bills, presenting us in Parliamentary language with ghosts from our warlike past. If they were to become law they would have the effect of emphasising these boundaries, of exacerbating the differences which need not exist, of institutionalising antipathies between groups of people who are thus arbitrarily and unjustifiably separated.
The noble Marquess, Lord Linlithgow, mentioned the Union between Scotland and England, but it happened so long ago that really we should have little need to talk about it except out of historical interest. However, in its time I believe it was indeed a great advance, not only politically in allowing and encouraging

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mutual help and support, but also in reducing antagonism and tension among the people in these islands. If we accepted the theories and concepts which are the true motivation behind the bringing forward of these two Bills we should be rejecting our hard-won experience gained over the years in the progressive improvement in human relationships. I have, my Lords—how can I put it?—a deep conscientious objection to the ideas which the Bills attempt to placate. The beliefs which have motivated the demand for these measures are morally repugnant to me, and I trust that the provisions in the Bills which in my opinion would have such an unhappy and destructive effect will in event not pass into law.
6.6 p.m.
Lord INGLEWOOD: My Lords, having had a Welsh grandmother perhaps I ought to be tempted to follow the noble Lord into the problems of Wales, but I am going to resist that temptation because it is the theme of my short speech that certain responsibilities of the police and the greater involvement of all of us in the prevention of crime would not mix easily. I ventured to intervene in the home affairs day of this debate last year, when I spoke of the need for more self-discipline in the country. But law and order was not in fashion last year, and although I mentioned the police it was with great diffidence. This year I am not so shy because law and order is admitted to be under strain and there is mention of police problems every day in the Press and on television. For example, the shortage of men coming forward to make good wastage, the increase in violent crimes and, not least, hijacking and terrorism which demand the very highest standard of training. Then we have the Federation's persistent and strident claims about pay and the right to strike, which I venture to think have done the police image more harm than good.
But whatever the public may read in their newspapers, and however many policemen they may see on their television screens, they see ever fewer police patrolling the areas in which they live. I shall call this "police presence". I think it is important and it should be improved if public confidence is not to suffer further. It is not enough to know
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that the police are "somewhere around"; they must be seen, even if only sometimes. I am not a lone voice in saying this. I am echoing what the Commissioner recently put out in a statement to the Press when he said that he wanted to stem the flow of crime in London and he envisaged doing it by getting more police on to the streets. Unfortunately he stopped there, and he did not say how he intended to achieve his purpose. I am going to be rash, if not brave, and try to indicate one way—the only way I can see—how it can be done.
There is no dispute today that with a population on wheels such as ours much policing must be done on wheels, but if putting nearly all available police in cars is an efficient way of using manpower it is also an effective way of losing touch with the people served. At this time it is hard to believe but the Home Office and the Metropolitan Police are proposing to close a number of the smaller police stations in London, which is likely to mean that there will be still fewer men walking. I hope the Minister will have noticed petitions in the windows of half the shops in the Pimlico area saying "Save Gerald Row Police Station". That shows the strength of local feeling, and I hope the Minister will note it and will heed it.
With all this in mind a year ago I decided to try to find out more about the police and particularly what we expect of a PC today; what they think about the public—that is us—as well as what they think about themselves. Here I should like to thank Lord Harris of Greenwich, who helped me with contacts in London.
The police world is very close to us, but most of us know very little about it. If the police feel misunderstood it is largely their own fault, because they are so very inward-looking and too easily become suspicious of those who show interest. But if over the last year I have met a very few who were not so co-operative, the great majority of all ranks could not have been more welcoming and more helpful, and I am grateful indeed. I have spent many interesting nights as well as days, not only in London but also with several forces in the country, and abroad, because I wanted to try and get a general picture.
If a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, I am yet sure of two things. The

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first is that the loyalty within the police force is something quite extraordinary; is is something which other sections of the population of this country might well try to match, and it is very refreshing to come into contact with it. Secondly, I would say that the police deserve great credit for their success with the initial training of their recruits. They give them great self-confidence as well as the basic knowledge in a very short time, and one must admit that not all their recruits are such very promising material.
My Lords, it is clear that I could say a lot, but I want to be brief, and I do not want to say anything which could be said to be a breach of confidence, nor anything which might bring aid or joy to any villain. But I am going to say something which every villain knows, even if not every London ratepayer, and that is that nearly every police relief at the moment is shorthanded, the Houses of Parliament being, I would think, the one exception. I am not going to give any more details of what I may have seen or what I may have heard.
More recently, with this debate in view, in fact about 10 days ago, I arranged to spend a night south of the river and to be sure to spend part of that time walking with a PC, because I wanted to check my feelings about the "police presence", and what is possible and what is impossible. Over that evening I came up against nothing which made me change my views. Wherever one walks with a PC, whether in the High Street areas or in the more residential areas in the dark where there are fewer people about, you get the feeling that you are being noticed, and not just on account of his blue uniform; you feel that you are both being noticed, and you very soon lose count of the sneers and half audible rude remarks which his blue uniform attracts and which are made the whole time by many of the young.
One experience that evening I shall never forget. We were walking, or should I say proceeding solemnly, along a dark street in a residential area when an elderly couple came round the corner, and on seeing my companion's uniform their faces lit up with pleasure and surprise. As we passed one said, "How nice to sec a policeman around here", with just the same sort of thrill as a naturalist would feel if he came across a species of animal
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which he believed to be extinct. Then they looked at me and they were a little puzzled. Was I an elderly member of the CID, and, with grey hair, in plain clothes, or was I the young man's prisoner on the way back to the police station? I got a special smile, and I shall remember that smile. It was a most moving incident.
My Lords, how can we make the walking man less rare? To shift back as many men as can be from vehicles to their feet might help public confidence in the short term and it might strengthen crime prevention in the High Streets, but it would reduce the chance of detecting major crimes where police mobility is so important. But having said that, I would like to think, and I am sure every policeman will echo this, that it is possible to have more home beat men. Some would say that it is all a question of numbers and if you put up the pay you will have more men, but I am sure it is not so easy as that. There are other factors which are holding back recruiting today. Shift work year after year, often very repetitive, and upsetting of family life is not an attractive prospect for a young married man or for his wife. There is another factor which it is no good disguising, and that is poor leadership. Good young men are not attracted to serve under uninspiring leaders, and it must be said that the police, like all other professions, have their share and more of uninspiring leaders.
Some people think that there are great hidden reserves of trained PCs sitting in police stations pushing pens, and that all you need do is to recruit more civilians to be able to release a great reserve of skilled police constables. But that is a myth; they are not there. But there are a number of ways in which auxiliaries could relieve highly trained men of many simple tedious duties so leaving them free to do what I would call their proper job; that is the more active job for which they have been trained. In this field middle aged men and women with a little training could help a lot, particularly with their experience of life and experience of dealing with people. Often they could do some of the jobs, which I will explain, better than a very young PC, whatever his advantage in muscle power, because in these circumstances muscle power is irrelevant. I will try to explain. We all know that

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at the mention of auxiliaries many normal professional policemen become irrational, but they must learn to get over this. Much good police work needs long experience and training and the problems are becoming even more exacting. For those capable of benefiting there should be opportunities of the highest possible training and appropriate pay, a lot more than the average today. If this could happen I am sure it would give the police enhanced status.
But at the other end there is much useful police work done well by the less ambitious and the very young who often have no "O" levels to their name, little experience of the world, little training, but their heart is in the right place; they have got a pocket radio, they have got the bluff of the blue uniform and pride in the police service. We see examples of them every day and it is astonishing what they achieve, and we should pay tribute. But these should accept the fact that they have to work much more closely with auxiliaries in certain fields, for instance in clearing up what every force calls inquiries, the mass of detailed work often coming from other forces and which the Metropolitan Police has already tackled by setting up special sections largely staffed by civilians. I will not elaborate on that.
I will say that I wish that the Government would pay really close attention to what we call the thin blue line which is both regular and special constabulary. We know that after the Working Party report there was a question of thinning out the older men; in fact the noble Lord has achieved, I believe, an actual increase in numbers over the last 12 months for the first time since 1951. But I do know of one force where a third of the strength, admittedly over-age, were just dismissed by means of a letter through the post—a quite nicely worded letter, but just dismissal without any consultation of any kind. If a redundancy in industry was handled in that way there would be a strike. That is not the sort of leadership to attract the best sort of recruits.
My Lords, some of us will have seen in The Times very recently a report of the chief constable of Bedfordshire talking about "self-policing in villages by the residents," but he did not fully explain what he meant. I assume that the groups
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would be under police control, at least I hope so, because if not under police control every encouragement would be given to vigilante types of grouping, which is the last thing we want to see. I mention this because it shows that the chief constable's thinking is on the same lines as my own. Vigilantes will certainly appear in this country unless there is greater police co-operation with the auxiliaries.
However, better than the article by the chief constable of Bedfordshire, I came yesterday upon an article written in a paper 18 months ago by the chief constable of Devon and Cornwall, which exactly reflects my thinking and conclusions. He was writing about what he called "the good neighbourhood plan". He said:
"The will to protect one's own community or neighbourhood carried into effect through police leadership of a selected and trained voluntary or special constabulary is the superior answer. Under a professional police team leader, ideally the neighbourhood constable, active men and women who are prepared to give a little time to the limited function of preventive patrol in uniform with professional resources on call, would go a long way towards reducing the incidence of street crime. Such patrols would need close supervision as well as being strictly limited in function. People should be encouraged to regard this service as a civic responsibility which traditionally it is. To regard the arrangement as a substitute for adequate police establishments should be resisted".
I do not suppose that there is anyone who would disagree with that. I should like to press the Government to carry out an experiment on these lines. Nothing will happen without an experiment. It is no good thinking that something like that will happen throughout the country all at once. Why not carry out an experiment? Why not call for volunteers from this House? They could be given a little intensive training and we could then see what can be achieved by older men and women with experience of the world and of people—men and women who could devote time by day as well as late in the evening. If the noble Lord will volunteer, so shall I.
What has been suggested by a chief constable—and not just by me—could well lead quickly to better police presence in many areas and make it possible for the thousands of good people, like the elderly couple that I met 10 days ago in one of the London boroughs on the other side of the river, without fear to walk the streets near where they live.
6.23 p.m.
Baroness PHILLIPS: My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, will be glad to know that on this occasion I shall largely follow what he has said. I should be happy to patrol the streets of London with him any night!
With a busy Session ahead, I had originally thought of saying that a speech at this time can be no more than a shot across the bows of the Government. However, I thought that that was a little harsh so I have modified it and now say that it is an indication of intent—an indication of matters that I intend to raise and of the problems that I hope to see resolved. I welcome, as do many other noble Lords, the reference to a White Paper on the future of broadcasting. I trust that there will be every intention not only to retain but, indeed, to extend local broadcasting. The regional character of these stations, very close to where people live and to the people they serve, is always an inspiration to those who are invited to participate in programmes. The Government of the day would do very well to note that this is the most obvious and easy means of communication available to them.
As a city dweller it is good to see that the inner urban areas will receive attention. One can only pray that the damage done by the bulldozers and the vandals can be repaired. We meet in a very curious period of frightening unrest. It is becoming virtually impossible to move about one's daily business without interruption. On a visit to another city recently, certain newspapers were not available to read, lifts were not working, the possibility of a five hour wait at the airport necessitated a slightly more complicated journey on British Rail and even a brief broadcast on radio was subject to some discussion as to whether it would be transmitted. Happily, the engineer seemed to like the look of me and I was allowed the only seven minutes of the day.
Those who call for the abolition of a second Chamber because of its lack of democracy would do well to cast their eyes a little nearer home, to those centres of power that, by the misuse of their power, manage to cause discomfort and in some cases even cold and fear to ordinary people who have no appeal or redress. What of those who will not strike, go slow or work to rule? The police are an excellent
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example of public servants who are almost always criticised. If ever it is a question of "the customer is right", that is so as regards the police. I believe that the Home Secretary put up a brave fight against his strangely short-sighted colleagues in the Government. I hope that I can back up his case by a few words of support.
Last year an indictable crime was committed in this country every minute of every day and night throughout the year. I looked up in the dictionary the definition of "crime", and it said:
"Violation of public rights".
That concerns us all. It also said:
"A breach of duty imposed by law for the benefit of the community at large".
One could speculate at great length on the causes of the increase in crime. One psychologist, in language which only psychologists can use, said that the barrier of contentment at subsistence level had decreased or changed; in other words, the more you have, the more you want. One could speculate that an education system which teaches that Christianity is
a history subject rather than a philosophy might also have an effect. However, whatever the cause, the effect on the ordinary citizen is terrifying. Side by side with that is the police force which is not only lacking in new recruits, but is actually losing trained personnel daily. The Police Service in England and Wales now has a thousand fewer policemen than it did at the start of the year, and it is a service which was already losing and not gaining recruits. My Lords, the Minister nods his head. I shall be happy if he can disagree with that statement, but it was obtained from some police facts. Moreover, that has happened in a period of unemployment. Surely the Government must see that and act.
Ironically enough, I spoke to a Minister last week on the question of police pay. He replied that if we acceded to that request then the firemen will act. However, now we see that the policy of, "Don't look now; it will go away", has not worked and the firemen are rightly demanding attention to their problems.
It is always wrong to disregard the reasonable demands of those who work in the service of the community, merely

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because they carry on doing their job and do not hold innocent people to ransom. Society gets the kind of law and order it deserves. We must stop knocking authority and give it full support. We, in the position of power that we have here, must see that we utilise it wisely.
6.28 p.m.
Lord BOYD-CARPENTER: My Lords, there must be many of us in the House who feel, and feel strongly, that the topics to which the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, has alluded are of far more significance to the ordinary person and are far more important to the well-being of the country, than the subjects upon which, unhappily, one gathers from the gracious Speech, Parliament will be spending most of its time. It is perfectly clear that a large part of Parliament's time will be hypothecated to the two devolution Bills and, for that matter, to the European Elections Bill. All that has a rather tatty feeling of déjà vu about it. After all, they were all in the previous Queen's Speech, and, for all I know, they may be in the next one. Whatever view one may take of them, they are matters of very great doubt.
I am bound to say that I was greatly impressed by the doubts expressed by the noble Marquess, Lord Linlithgow. I could not help reflecting that, if one sets up Assemblies in any part of the world—this has been the experience in the British Commonwealth for the past 100 years—those Assemblies are never content with the catholic, calculated powers that Parliament confers upon them. They always demand more. They always agitate for more and they always proceed, if they do not get what they want by agitation, to worse and perhaps more violent steps to get it. I must confess to great unhappiness at the idea of deliberately creating in these small islands, with their excellent systems of communication, two separate Assemblies which will perhaps be fairly innocuous in the immediate future but which can be growth centres or foci for very unhappy separatist developments as the years pass.
I know that this is a subject on which views differ very widely in this House. I believe that we can all agree that, whether these proposals be right or wrong, they
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have absolutely no relevance to the only problem that really matters in this country at the moment—namely, how we are to earn our daily bread. The most enthusiastic views—the views of the noble Earl, Lord Perth—will not solve any of our problems. Indeed, in some degree, they will plainly make them worse. All experience shows that one sets up—I hope the phrase is not offensive—"talking shops" of this kind, which have to be supported by an ever-growing bureaucracy which, again, has to be supported out of taxation. All experience shows that they use their growing powers to demand public expenditure which is not based on a sensible overall analysis of the needs of the national economy, but is designed to meet their separate and local demands, even perhaps their local and separate self-esteem.
Therefore, they will add directly and indirectly to that burden of taxation which is one of the major factors in holding back the growth and expansion of our economy. I think that one understates the matter when one says that these proposals will make no contribution to the solution of what everyone in this country really wants; that is, to conquer inflation and unemployment and to achieve a rising standard of life. In some degree—and it is very much a matter of opinion how great that degree is—they will actually make that situation worse. Indeed, we had a hint of it in the speech of the noble Earl, Lord Perth, when he entered a pre emptive bid for Scotland for part of the oil revenues of the North Sea to be spent, according to him, not in accordance with an overall view of where that expenditure is most needed, but in Scotland, whether or not it is most needed there. That cannot make economic good sense.
I have a disappointment for the noble Earl and I am sorry that he is not here. The greater part of that oil is to be found in the vicinity of Orkney and Shetland. My duties in the Civil Aviation Authority, which I have fairly recently left, took me there fairly frequently. I had ample opportunity to talk on this subject to the inhabitants of those islands. I can sum up the views expressed by responsible people there, which are broadly to the effect that they did not care very much for being run from London but they would see, if the House will pardon the words, everybody a hell of a way before they

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would be governed from Edinburgh. The noble Earl may well think that devolution will bring the oil revenues to Scotland but, once started, devolution can be a continuing process and we may simply be creating an Abu Dhabi in the Northern Isles.
I should like to ask the Minister of State a question about one aspect of these devolution proposals. The noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor told us earlier today that the referenda which are to follow the proposals will be advisory to Parliament. As I understand the position, the referenda will not be held until the Bills have passed all stages in both Houses—if they do—and are ready for presentation to Her Majesty for the Royal Assent. How, then, will the result of the referenda be advisory to Parliament if Parliament has parted with control over the legislation? Is any machinery envisaged for bringing Bills which have gone through both Houses back here
once again before presentation for the Royal Assent in order that the advice of the referenda can be taken into account by Parliament? I hope that I make the point clear. That advice can of course be taken into account by the Government in deciding whether to present the Bills for the Royal Assent, but what about Parliament? I stress the fact that the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor—who, as befits his Office, speaks with legal precision—said "advisory to Parliament".
I should like to register a protest about the referenda. The Minister of State will correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that the only people entitled to vote in the referenda will be present voters in Scotland and Wales. That is wholly wrong. The question of division or fission in the United Kingdom is of interest to every citizen of the United Kingdom. If there is to be a referendum—and I am inclined to think that these constitutional proposals are a good subject for a referendum—why should the great majority of the inhabitants of the United Kingdom (those who live in England and, for that matter, Northern Ireland) be denied any say?
Let us look at the anomalies that will be created. Scotsmen working in London will presumably be disfranchised, although
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Englishmen working in Edinburgh will have a vote. Troubles arise in law; there is no definition of a Scotsman. I imagine that the right to vote will have to be based simply on the current electoral registers in Scotland. What an absurd situation. The
number of Scotsmen in London was illustrated the other day by a Scotsman who visited London for the first time and was asked by his fellow countrymen when he returned what the English were like. He said, "Actually I did not meet any. You see, my appointments were only with chairmen and managing directors." What is the position, especially for those who have Scottish blood? I have enough Scottish blood at least to give me the great honour of serving in a Scottish regiment. Many people in this House and outside not only have a deep interest in Scotland but a common concern about the future of the whole United Kingdom, which is bound up in this.
I make a plea to the Government that if they wish to take the voice of the people, they should take the voice of the whole people. The slogan, "One man, one vote", means that every man has a vote, not merely relative minorities, however important, who may think that, rightly or wrongly, they are affected more than others but who, I am sure, would not dispute that those of us in England who have been in a common kingdom with them for centuries have an equally strong feeling.
The only other topic on which I desire to say a few words is the question of the future of this House, which was so eloquently raised by the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, in a courageous and highly amusing speech with every other word of which I think I agreed. However, he did not make the crucially important point about the need for a second Chamber as a protection against tyranny which arises from the necessity to have some entrenchment of any measure to repeal or amend the Quinquennial Act. As noble Lords will recall, successive Parliament Acts have excluded their own operation on any measure to extend the life of Parliament in order that there can be no question of a House of Commons, with perhaps a narrow extremist majority, extending its life indefinitely without the consent of this House. That is one of the reserve

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powers of this House which, for the avoidance of tyranny, it is crucial to retain, because, if the efforts of the vote millionaires at the Brighton Conference are really taken seriously, there remains only the Crown, which, faced with such a measure, would be placed in a position of the greatest difficulty and embarrassment in deciding whether or not to grant its assent.
Quite apart from the volume of business and the fact that these very devolution measures to which I have referred will be guillotined in the lower House with large parts of them not discussed and quite apart from the practical need for this House to do work on them and much other legislation, this House is in a very special position in respect of the Quinquennial Act in preserving our country and our democracy against tyranny. So the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, says, as I do, that we must have a second Chamber.
Where I part company from him is in his idea that it is easy, or even sensible, in order to preserve a second Chamber to create a new one. I had some modest share, together, I am happy to recall, with the present Lord President of the Council, in defeating in another place the Parliament Bill No. 2 which I thought contained a great many ill-thought out and ill-digested proposals for altering the composition of this House. That experience brought me up against the fact that, whereas most of us a priori think that a House constituted as we are, partly hereditary and partly nominated, is probably not the best second Chamber, when you get down to brass tacks and look at alternatives they all seem to be very much worse.
The 1968 solution, where each of the political Parties would have had its private army of nominated Peers who alone would have the right to vote, and neatly balanced in proportion to the numbers in the political Parties in another place, would have taken all the independence, and much of the expertise, out of this House. It is true that those of us who would not have been thought sufficiently reliable lobby fodder to be nominated by our Parties as voting Peers would still have been allowed to attend, but not to vote. Very few men of spirit have so little confidence in their arguments that they are prepared to deliver those arguments without being able
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to back them with a vote. I suggest, with all respect to some of those who were connected with that proposal that it was a great mistake. I believe that if he were here the Lord Privy Seal, who was rather left out on a limb in the House of Commons at that time, would agree with me about that.
Would these various emasculated senates, elected with the Liberal specific of proportional representation in regions, really command the kind of standing and confidence which as a relatively new Member of this House perhaps I am allowed to say, this House does in fact command outside? They certainly would not command, any more than the 1968 version would have done, that quota of fairly young Peers who do so much of the work of the Front Benches—and one of whom at least has made a most impressive maiden speech today. Any of these senates, or reformed Lords, would be an elderly body. We should not have the spread of age groups which is necessary to our working.
Therefore, with great diffidence, because I am a relatively new Member of this House, I would say to your Lordships do not let us be too timid about our composition. I say this with regret, as one who was in the House of Commons for 27 years, that as unhappily estimation of the House of Commons has diminished, that of your Lordships has risen. It is recognised that, for better or worse, we include among our numbers Members with some knowledge on almost any subject that comes under discussion. If my own speech tonight be not taken as a contradiction of this proposition, on the whole we speak only on subjects we know something about.
I believe that we can perform a useful role because reformers are up against this dilemma; I do not believe that any House of Commons, whatever its political composition, would agree to an elected House of Lords because it would fear that an elected House of Lords would assert excessive powers against the Lower House. I believe that the present House of Commons, led in fact by a man who had some experience of the 1968 fiasco, will be prepared to accept the functioning of this House with something like its present membership. There are all sorts of ideas for minor improvements which I

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would not wish to exclude—inclusion, in addition to the right reverend Prelates, of the heads of other faiths, and so on. But, broadly speaking, a second Chamber is essential. It is one of the guardians of liberty. When you have looked around and, if the House wishes, as the noble Lord, Lord Houghton of Sowerby, suggested, you have had an investigation, I am willing, if it is not improper and un-parliamentary to do so, to lay a quite enormous bet with him that you will come round in a circle and find that this House, more or less as it is, serves a useful purpose, and that it will do so for many centuries in the future as it has done in the past.
6.44 p.m.
Lord WILSON of LANGSIDE: My Lords, it is only about devolution in Scotland that I wish to speak. I find myself in such complete agreement with everything that the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, has said on the subject that it occurs to me that this presents an opportunity to win your Lordships' undying gratitude by saying that I am content simply to adopt, and hold as repeated, everything that he and much that other of the opponents of the Government's proposals have said: brevitatis causa. Although the opportunity of winning your Lordships' eternal gratitude may never again be repeated, I propose to sacrifice it this evening, and there are two general points I wish to make on this subject.
The first is that the tide of public opinion in Scotland, where I have my home, is turning slowly, but quite surely, against the Government's proposals. The second point I would make is that the judgment of the people in this regard is sound, and the Government's proposals are unsound. This fundamentally, of course, is because the people are anxious to find a solution to the various problems which present themselves in this context. A rational attempt is what they want to solve the problems involved. The Government, on the other hand, have been obsessed throughout with electoral considerations. They have never really wholly subdued the panic which was created some 12 years or so ago when the Labour Party lost the Hamilton by-election to the Scottish Nationalists.
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As I view the matter from Scotland, and as do many other people too, it is that panic which appears to have blinded them to the damage which these proposals of theirs will do in Britain.
Of course, few, if any, in Scotland quarrel with the idea of devolution. But there is this growing awareness there that there is little wisdom in the Government's proposals. People in increasing numbers are beginning to appreciate, as many of us have done all along, that this measure will not improve, but will rather reduce, the effectiveness and efficiency of government in Scotland—and indeed I would imagine, although I am not qualified to speak about this country, in England as well. It is ever more widely acknowledged that the proposals, if implemented, would not, as the Prime Minister suggested in the Second Reading debate on the old Bill, provide a useful channel for the legitimate national aspirations of the Scots without going to the extreme of separation advocated by the Nationalists. A more sensible political judgment surely is that, on the contrary, they will provide, as the Nationalists clearly believe and indeed hope, a convenient stepping stone to the break-up of the United Kingdom. That is what the Scottish Nationalists are in business to achieve. I do not, for my part, think that we should help them.
As the tide of public opinion is going, if I am right in my assessment of it, I like to think that when the whole business has been thoroughly ventilated and debated and explored, the only supporters left for these unfortunate proposals will be the Scottish Nationalists and the Scotsman newspaper. The former I can understand and, up to a point, even respect; the reasoning of the latter I find more difficult to fathom. Noble Lords who read the paper may have noticed that its leader writer tends to dub all criticism of the devolution proposals as "hysterical". Looking at the history of the whole matter, I find that diverting and quite mystifying.
Incidentally, it is notorious that there is no great enthusiasm for this measure among Scottish Labour Members of the other place; if there were a free vote, a significant enough number of them would vote against it and what happend last time on Second Reading suggests only that they lack the courage of their convictions. In due course, the whole matter will be fully

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debated here and in another place and I leave my first point there, expressing only the hope that Parliament will endorse the views that I and other opponents of this measure have expressed in today's debate.
In support of my second general point—that the Government's judgment has been defective—I wish to touch on only two things which I suggest the Government ought to have done in approaching this issue and which all the evidence suggests they neglected to do. First, because this was no mere trifling matter, no run-of-the-mill piece of parliamentary dissidence, they should have reflected—and I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Raglan, will forgive me if I say this—more seriously and to more purpose on the political history of the relations between the two countries over the last seven centuries. If, as Lord Raglan would say, at least four of them are probably better left alone and forgotten, I readily concede that, in their neglected historical reflections, the Government should have placed most emphasis on the history of the last 60 years, since about 1918. That approach, whether one takes the seven centuries or the 60 years, would have been more likely to inspire sound judgment than the short-term, misconceived, exclusively electoral considerations by which the Government have been consistently motivated, as for a time was also the Conservative Party.
What, in broad, does history show at the root of the tension between the two nations?—because tension between the Scots and the English is what it is all about. Of course it shows many things and, not surprisingly, it shows different things at different times. Thus, most of us Scots—and again I must apologise to Lord Raglan—regard it as having started at the end of the 13th century with, to quote a distinguished modern Scottish historian, "the sharp practice, arrogance and brutality" of English Edward which
"aroused in Scotland a native patriotism and a hatred of England which made the idea of union intolerable to Scottish hearts".
There followed 300 years of bloody warfare and mutual distrust. I could illustrate in a hundred and one ways from every-day life in modern Scotland how the spirit of William Wallace lives on today. That does not please me, and, like Lord Raglan, I wish they would forget about it, but the spirit lives on and the Westminster Government should never forget it.
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Over the centuries, the tensions have lessened, as we moved through the union of the Crowns or the union of Parliaments, into modern times. But, though they lessened, they never completely disappeared and what is left seems to lurk not very far below the surface, for every now and then, as in this last decade, they become more acute. I shall not at this late hour try to analyse in detail the reasons for this. Some are obvious, others less so, and certainly I do not think that it can be attributed to the "sharp practice, brutality and arrogance" of the Westminster Government as it at one time was. But what is clear is that the upsurge of these tensions in Scotland invariably occurs when Westminster Governments are at their more incompetent and insensitive, as they periodically are.
The point I wish to make here is that the Government's handling of this whole matter has too many of the hallmarks of Westminster Government if not at its worst then certainly at far from its best. This is Westminster Government handling a political problem that they do not truly understand, a problem with which they have not sufficiently come to terms. So we have a kind of circle; incompetence in Government gives birth to the problem and that incompetence is matched or compounded by incompetence in the search for a solution. It is the inevitable consequence of giving misconceived electoral considerations precedence over principle and considerations of practical sagacity.
Secondly, there is something the Government ought to have done but have neglected to do. They should have had in the forefront of their appreciation the fact that this is the kind of problem in relation to which it is much more important to get the answer right than to get the answer quickly. This view derives support from the admirable memorandum of dissent to the Report of the Royal Commission by Lord Crowther-Hunt and Professor Peacock. I have for some years suspected that nobody in the Government has ever read it. I am sure I am quite wrong about that but, if they have read it, I find it difficult to believe that they have reflected seriously on their set-up. That, in my submission, is what should have been given the maximum emphasis. We need time to consider this matter.

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Of course the Nationalists would have bleated about delay, but the Nationalists in Scotland will bleat whatever the British Government do. Properly put, this would have been accepted by the hardheaded, sensible Scottish people. If we get the wrong answer, as many in Scotland seriously believe the Government have done, there will be no turning back and no second chance. If the expectations for improved government are disappointed, as they inevitably will be, the pressure for the ending of the Union will build up and could become irresistible. That is the real danger and that is surely a consequence which Parliament would not wish to bring about.
7 p.m.
Lord MACKIE of BENSHIE: My Lords, I rise happily at seven o'clock, much earlier than I thought I would, to talk again on this most excellent Queen's Speech and the subjects therein. What I am going to say now I have been saying consistently for many years. Here I refer, of course, to devolution. But before coming on to that subject, which is the main matter I want to talk about, I want to say first that I cannot understand certain of the attitudes of the Conservative Party. This is a most excellent Queen's Speech. It is free from vice. It tackles a great many problems. It could have been a Conservative Queen's Speech, in some of their saner moments, and they should cheer, instead of trying to find an excuse. I have never heard so much praise of the IMF. My goodness! every Conservative one hears says that the Liberals have not done it, the Government have not shown any sense; it is all because of the IMF. I suggest that it would be marvellous for the Conservatives to go to the IMF and ask them to write their next programme for the General Election. No doubt, it would be a very good one.
Having said that, I should like to mention one or two points in the gracious Speech which have not, so far, been mentioned. One concerns agriculture. I can find no reference in yesterday's Hansard to the section of the Speech which dealt with agriculture. I want to say to the Government that their intentions of raising production from the land in this country to save considerable imports and to see that we have food are excellent,
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but in fact these intentions are not being carried out. At present, production is falling and our expenses are rising. There are a few sections of the industry which are in good shape but, sooner or later, the Government must do something about this matter. Of course, I am well aware of the effect on wage negotiations in relation to the price of food, but the rise in the cost of living may be much larger if production continues to fall. Sooner or later the Government must grasp this nettle, and I dare say that the farmers would be perfectly content to settle within the guidelines of 10 per cent. But something must be done, because confidence is falling.
I turn once again to devolution, or a Parliament, a focus, for the people of Scotland and Wales. I have long been in politics, in and out of both places, and I have travelled the length and breadth of Scotland and, indeed, of England, for many years. I have advocated for many years, as has the Liberal Party, a Parliament in Scotland which would deal with Scottish affairs within a framework of Great Britain.
I think that the Conservative Party has changed considerably since the last debate, when the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, took a very different attitude. He said:
"This means a visible, representative body in Scotland which would openly debate issues and to which the Executive would have to account publicly for its stewardship. To ignore that feeling, now widespread in Scotland, would I believe be unwise. It might well push more people into the camp of the extremists who want to split Britain into separate countries."—[Official Report, 30/11/76; col. 158.]
That advice should not now he ignored. The Conservative Party in Scotland now appear to be listening to the voice of suburban Glasgow, rather than to the voice of better people, perhaps, in their traditional rural areas. They are not regarding the advice of senior and respected politicians in this House and elsewhere, and I believe that they are making a grave mistake. The noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, was very gloomy in his speech, and I got the impression that he was wholly against the devolution Bill, and that he was going to act in accordance with that belief.
But I believe it would be extremely unwise of the Conservative Party to act

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in that way. The polls set up by various people may be showing a slowing down in support for the National Party. Of course, we shall have an ebb and flow of opinion, but this time the problem will not go away. There is far too great a demand for some focus in Scotland, for it to go away. There is far too great a success achieved in Parliament for people to turn away and say that everything is fine and that they will go back happily to the old system. I believe that the Bill as it now is, and is to come before this House some time in the spring, is a great improvement on the last one. Many features could be further improved. Nevertheless, I believe that it provides a basis which would satisfy the people of Scotland. They would want to improve it, but I think that within the framework proposed the United Kingdom is safe, and Scotland would play a very large and a very happy part in an arrangement of this kind. A considerable improvement lies in the fact that we now have two separate Bills for Scotland and Wales. This is entirely necessary, and I think that the Government were most sensible in agreeing to have two separate Bills. There has been a considerable change of attitude on the part of the Government.
There is no doubt at all that both major Parties began to consider devolution, or a focus in Scotland, simply because of pressure from the Scottish Nationalists. I believe that many politicians in the Conservative Party are now looking at the matter on its own merits, and the Labour Party has come round to looking at it much more as a form of Government in which it has some belief and which it believes can do some good for the people of Scotland and the United Kingdom. There is no longer in the Bill the pettiness of trying to call the man who will, in effect, be Prime Minister, a chief executive. He is not to be called Prime Minister, but "Secretary" is now a reasonable compromise and a respectable title to give to an important chief Minister in Scotland. That simple change means a great deal in attitude.
The proposal to allocate the money which the Assembly will spend—though it cannot raise money at the moment—by means of a formula over a period of years is a distinct advance, because it will mean that the Assembly will get experience in allocating its own money and in shifting its resources around the
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various areas. In that way it will gain considerable experience. At some stage the Assembly will have to be given money-raising powers, and in this connection the Government have agreed to look at any sensible scheme which is brought forward. There is little doubt that this will come, and that it must come.
We must look again at our attitude in this House and in another place to the general concept, because we are now in Europe, we are now into bigger and bigger units, and the more that we are in a larger unit in Europe, the more we need an identity in the smaller and more outlying parts of this country. This Parliament will provide that identity in Scotland. The Scottish Assembly will, I believe, need representation of some kind in Brussels, because obviously the Assembly, and the Assembly alone, will know best the needs of Scotland, and its representatives can put their case in Brussels, or in Europe, in a far better way than can come from the Westminster Government. I think that a whole lot of experience will be gained, and I think that further powers may well be sought.
I further think that if the Scottish people want more powers and they seek them in a reasonable manner, then they must get them. I am astonished by the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, that a referendum is no good unless it embraces the whole of Great Britain. It may be logical in one way, but, really, if you are going to go by the feeling for self-determination in a country, you have to take the feeling, singly, of that country.
Lord BOYD-CARPENTER: My Lords, would the noble Lord allow me to interrupt him? Following his argument, if you have an existing country and you are splitting it up, are not all the parts of that country concerned and interested, and ought not all of them to be consulted?
Lord MACKIE of BENSHIE: My Lords, you can carry an argument to absurdity, but you must not forget that until 1717 Scotland had its own Parliament, and until 1603 it was a country on its own. You have constituent parts of this country which historically feel an identity as a country, and this is what you cannot ignore. If you were going

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to give independence to an African country, you would not take a referendum in this country as to whether it should have independence. All right, it may not be a logical argument, but neither was the noble Lord's.
Lord BOYD-CARPENTER: It is wholly illogical.
Lord MACKIE of BENSHIE: My Lords, I really do not want to embark upon a Second Reading speech, but I do think that what we have to do is to pass this Bill and get it on to the Statute Book as soon as possible. The feeling in Scotland is still strong.
The MARQUESS of LINLITHGOW: No.
Lord MACKIE of BENSHIE: The noble Marquess says "No". He may disagree, but the polls still show strong support and the figures of the Parties still indicate strong support. I think that if we do not do something in this Parliament then at the next Election we are really going to get a very strong feeling in the other countries that England does not care. I am sure that this House does not want to give that feeling, and I hope your Lordships will speed the Bill through Parliament.
7.13 p.m.
The EARL of MANSFIELD: My Lords, this debate has followed several paths, as is customary in your Lordships' House when discussing the gracious Speech. Before I get into my argument I should like, of course, to congratulate both the mover and the seconder of the humble Address, and also the two noble Lords who have, as it were, spoken for the first time and ended their period of maidenhood in your Lordships' House. I hope that each of them, in their different ways, will realise how much they have contributed to our discussions this afternoon. I hope that each of them, having now broken his silence, will contribute to our debates on many occasions in the future. We enjoyed their contributions and, if I may put it like this, we should like some more.
The debate has really fallen into two main parts. Early on there was the
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general debate in which a lot was said, I think, about law and order, the state of the police and matters like that. Then, after that, we have had a considerable period spent on the subject of devolution, where it has been a question, really, of those two noble bedfellows, Lords Perth and Mackie, against the rest. I acquit the noble and learned Lord of participation because of his measured, judicial tone. It was he, of course, who introduced the debate, and he introduced it immediately in a way which, if I may say so, showed some signs of self-congratulation so far as the Government are concerned when he said, in effect, that we as a nation have not done badly in terms of the recession. If I am not misquoting him or unfairly quoting him, he said, in effect, that as a nation we stand on the threshold of advance so far as material gains are concerned. I certainly do not mind the Government taking what comfort they can from the present state of euphoria. Whether indeed it is a vision of the promised land which the noble and learned Lord sees, I beg to doubt; I think it may well be a mirage. Certainly so far as financial circles are concerned there is still very deep gloom about the present state of world reflation—or, rather, the lack of it—and the fact that so many of the countries which are superior to us in terms of economic recovery so far are making such a very slow progression towards prosperity.
The point of saying this, which might be thought an economic argument, in a debate on home affairs is that the stresses and strains which this period of recession has put on our society definitely has, I think, had an effect, both on the question of law and order and, indeed, on the question of devolution. It is a fact that large and totally (I was going to say "irresponsible", but I will not) intolerable quantities of unemployment not only diminish the self-respect of the unfortunates who are but unemployment statistics but also diminish the whole self-respect of our nation, and certainly change public attitudes for the worse. I am not going to follow my noble friend Lord Ferrers in what I thought, if I may say so, was a very penetrating analysis, but there is no doubt that over the years we have become an acquisitive society. I am not going to point a finger at one Party or another. I think it was probably just as

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unfortunate to say to people, in effect, "You've never had it so good—and we encourage you to buy consumer durables on hire-purchase and generally to improve, or apparently improve, your standard of living" as it is to say, perhaps as this Government have tended to say, "We are going to strike the rich from their pinnacles and we encourage you people to be envious of them". I think both are unfortunate points of view, perhaps, and I think both have had their effect on our society.
The fact of the matter is that people are no longer content to, as it were, argue matters out in traditional ways; to take industrial action in what I might call traditional ways; to be content with the results of inquiries which are made in traditional ways: and to abide by the decisions of Parliament, which are still made in traditional ways. The events at Grunwick and the events which have surrounded certain other strikes—and I point no fingers as to blame, or anything else—show that, by and large, our population are not content to let matters rest and have their grievances looked at, gone into, discussed and eventually settled in ways which were considered perfectly proper and satisfactory but a few years before.
How are we affected by this gracious Speech? The noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, was self-congratulatory in a certain degree, too. "There is no socialism in the Speech", he said, which he was pleased about; and he said, in effect, that this was all due to the Liberal presence in the other place and the advice which they had been able to foist upon a reluctant Government. What he does not bear, and which he should bear along with his colleagues, is the mantle of guilt for maintaining this ghastly Government in power in the first place. If they had not done what they did in the other place, we would not now, I suggest, be standing here discussing unwise measures such as this further attempt to foist devolution upon what I suggest is an unwilling country. We should not be pausing, as the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, did, to congratulate the Government upon measures which would help small businesses and the self-employed, when it is this Government who have brought them almost to their knees so far as cash flow and solvency are concerned.
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However, the noble Lord is not here and we will leave him in peace—I see now that the noble Lord is here. I congratulate him.
Lord WIGODER: My Lords, perhaps the noble Earl will be good enough to indicate whether he or his Party has any alternative to offer at the moment.
The Earl of MANSFIELD: My Lords, I have an alternative. It is, the first time there is a vote of confidence in another place, to march firmly into the Lobbies with my colleagues there. That would be an alternative which would be both patriotic and effective in terms of our future prosperity.
My Lords, as far as the gracious Speech is concerned, of course, many of the reforms which the noble and learned Lord touched on, where they deal with legal matters, will be non-Party and I know there will be a considerable measure of agreement. Noble Lords on these Benches, and, I dare say, on the Liberal Benches as well, will play their part in helping them through the House. If they are anything like the Criminal Law Act, as it is now, in the last Session, perhaps even the Law Lords will debate with their customary gusto.
I was very interested in what the noble and learned Lord said about the level of crime and the waiting time in London and the Provinces so far as the unfortunates are concerned who eventually will have to take their place in the dock in the Crown Court. If one stops to think about it, it is intolerable that somebody should have to wait six months for their case, and, possibly, their future liberty, to be discussed in court. I do not know how witnesses can be expected to remember for a period as long as that details of conversations and small matters of identification which can be so important. I know that all noble Lords and anybody in either House of Parliament would help the Government so far as it was within their power to do anything to shorten such waiting time.
My Lords, I was slightly perturbed at the manner in which the noble and learned Lord dealt with the question of the duration of trials. I think that the words "verbosity of counsel" were employed by the
noble and learned Lord. I hope

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that I am sufficiently far removed in time from my erstwhile practice not to have to declare an interest which I now do not have, but in my time I certainly saw no sign of dishonest members of the Bar, rather like dishonest taxidrivers, taking the long route hoping that the meter will click up for another refresher. I do not think that that goes on. I was a little perturbed to understand that the two greatest legal figures in the land could seriously pretend that it does.
What I think has happened in the last few years is a combination of two things. First, because of the spread of legal aid I think that people are now preparing their cases along with their instructing solicitors with far greater care and in far greater detail than ever before. This, of course, means that the defence is far more extensive and the prosecution's case is tested far more thoroughly than it ever used to be. Secondly—and one has to acknowledge this—criminals are far better educated, prepared and advised, in the non-legal sense, than they ever were before. The worst villain that I ever defended—he was an armed robber and not a fraudulent creature; a good armed robber—had been to a grammar school and his father was a self-employed contractor. When we came to prepare his defence I had to spend no less than an hour and a half with him in his cell at the Old Bailey before the day's work was done and another hour or so afterwards. Every cross-examination had to be prepared with him in the minutest detail so that it could be put forward in the way he considered that it should. This is an example of the modern criminal. I do not want to say any more about this; but if counsel are to be fined for doing their work as they consider thoroughly, it will be a poor day for British justice.
My Lords, while I am talking about law reform, may I congratulate the Government if, as I think they are, they intend to reform the criminal justice system in Scotland and also to improve criminal justice procedure. It was something which I might have hoped that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wilson of Langside, would comment on. Having seen both legal systems so far as criminal justice is concerned, I am bound to say that I am perturbed at the procedures in Scotland and, more especially, at the
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distinct lack of avenues which a judge can go down in dealing with convicted persons. I hope that the Government will try to follow the road of the last two Criminal Justice Acts and produce in Scotland some of the humane and throughly improving sentences which can now be passed by English judges and which, indeed, are taken as a matter of course. I do not know whether this might be a good Bill to be ventilated in your Lordships' House for the first time; I commend such a thought to the Government.
We then had, so far as this debate is concerned, a number of delightful subjects which in fact were not mentioned in the gracious Speech; subjects such as hare coursing, the future of this House and the vaccination of children. I think I have covered them. The noble Lord, Lord Soper, if I may say so in passing, told us of the many Bills designed to bring coursing to an end. The fact is that none of them succeeded. I might point out that this is perhaps an indication that there are some people who disagree with his point of view, who do not regard this as, in his words, "an abominable practice", and who will fight for the right to do what they consider is legal, proper and perfectly within the ordinary standards of the countryside. They may not be acceptable to a townie. I do not know where the noble Lord, Lord Soper, lives; but they are acceptable in the countryside—and I have never coursed.
My Lords, I want to come now to the matter of devolution. I sometimes wonder whether, looking to my left, I live in the same country as my noble friend Lord Perth, and, looking to my right, to the noble Lord, Lord Mackie of Benshie; in fact, on the map no more than 20 miles divides any of us. I have no doubt that there are a number of people in Scotland who perfectly genuinely feel that they are subjected to a far-off bureaucratic Government and that if only they could have a democratically-elected Assembly functioning in Edinburgh there would be, as far as they are concerned, an improved and enriched life. It is not something that I have ever felt. One cannot move a yard in Scotland without somebody poking their face over the hedge, as it were. Only last week in my own "patch"—and I call it so advisedly—

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we had people from the European Parliament to see whether we are spending FEOGA money properly, people from the community council to look at a right of way and people from the district council who wanted to put up a public lavatory on the banks of the River Tay. I did not quite know why; but they were adamant that it was necessary. We had people from the region to look at a road which badly needed doing up and for which they said there was no money, although they were content that the district should put up a public lavatory on the bank of the river. I never get the impression that I am very far off from government of one kind or another.
What I do think—and I come back to this streak of acquisitiveness which now runs through us—is that the Scottish public have for a long time been fed with a number of purely selfish and unworthy thoughts. They have been fed by the Press, television and a number of politicians seeking power: "If we can gather in the oil which happens to lie off Scotland's shores and not let the English get hold of it, we shall be that much richer. If we can stop other people from fishing in the sea round Scotland's shores, and we have the herring ourselves, we shall be that much richer. Thinking of what happened yesterday, if we can stop foreigners buying up our land and confiscate it from those who have it already, give it all round so that everybody has a little bit, we shall be that much richer". That is the philosophy behind so much of Scottish nationalism. It is a policy of selfishness which, speaking personally, I deplore. The best thing that could happen so far as Scottish nationalism is concerned is for an enormous oil field to be discovered in the Western Approaches. Then we would have very much less nonsense talked than we have had for a long time.
Most of the points that I have made have been more than adequately covered by other noble Lords, particularly by my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter. The noble Lord, Lord Peart, asked what the Conservatives thought. What we think both of this Bill and the last one has been made perfectly plain. Do not let it be said, my Lords, that we think there is no room for a measure of devolution in the right manner and at the right
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time, but not passed in an over-hasty way, hoping that at the next General Election a number of seats which are traditionally held by certain Members of Parliament of a particular persuasion will continue to be so held. That, I suggest, is the wrong way of making constitutional legislation. It is a short-sighted way, and it is a way which eventually will be brought to book.
The gracious Speech, if the Government give us the work, will agreeably occupy our time for the next few months. I say that because once the Bills start coming from the Commons—if they do—I imagine our time will be most disagreeably spent. Many of the Bills will owe their origins in one form or another to the Home Office. The noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, who is looking remarkably cheerful, will have a long, hot Session. My Lords, with that remark, I have had my say. The gracious Speech contains some things which are good, such as what we have heard about agriculture. It contains a number of matters which are obscure, such as profit-sharing and Section 2 of the Official Secrets Act; and it contains one or two proposals which are downright bad.
7.33 p.m.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: My Lords, I want to talk tonight primarily about the issue of law and order. Before doing so, I should like to touch on a number of the issues which have been raised. As in the debate which we had a year ago on the same day, it has ranged over a remarkably wide area of territory, from topics such as the future of this House, which was raised by my noble friend Lord Houghton of Sowerby and others, to the problems of first-time home buyers and the role of housing societies, which was raised by my noble friend, Lord Soper; and from devolution, which was raised by a substantial number of Members in this House, to the question of the Official Secrets Act, which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder. That being so, I hope that those who have spoken will acquit me of any discourtesy if I do not reply in detail to all the points that have been made.
On devolution, it is obvious that we are going to spend a fairly formidable amount of time on this question. Clearly,

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a number of Members of your Lordships' House look forward to this coming discussion with some degree of enthusiasm. It is right to say that this is a most important element of the Government's proposals in this Session, and one of the great values of the discussion that we have had today is the fact that it led to some slightly clearer indication of the position of the Opposition in this matter. When I heard the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, I thought he was saying he was not keen to have this Bill go through. That seemed to me the central purpose of his speech; but when the noble Earl, Lord Perth, asked whether that was the position, the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, replied that it was not.
We have also had the speech of the noble Earl, who has just resumed his seat. He did not take us a great deal further: the Opposition did not want us to act with any haste. I do not think that anybody can say that we have acted with an enormous degree of haste in this matter. He said that there might conceivably be some unworthy electoral motives so far as the Government are concerned. We all know that motives of that sort never affect the Opposition. The noble Earl was good enough to say that it was patriotic of the Liberal Party to go into the Lobby with the Conservative Party in the House of Commons. If the noble Earl will forgive my saying so, that, from a person for whose views I have a great deal of respect, was a remarkable statement. Nevertheless, we are clearly going to spend a substantial amount of time on this question.
I shall pass to my noble friend the Leader of the House the suggestion that was made by a number of speakers that there should be a debate on this matter before the Bill arrives. I shall also draw his attention to the suggestion of my noble friend Lord Houghton that there might be some merit in a debate on the future of this House.
Earl FERRERS: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lord? I do not want him to misconstrue what I said. When I interrupted the noble Earl, Lord Perth, it was simply on a matter of detail because I thought that he was quoting what I had said. I merely said that I did not say that. It was a point of detail on which I corrected him, not a point of substance.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: My Lords, I take note of what the noble Earl has said. On the question of the Official Secrets Act, which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, it remains the position of the Government that Section 2 of the Official Secrets Act 1911 should be repealed and replaced by far more up-to-date provisions. As has been made clear, we intend to publish our proposals in the form of a White Paper.
We have carried out a considerable amount of work in recent months on various aspects of the proposals of the Franks Committee and a White Paper—perhaps inevitably with a few Green edges—will allow all those with an interest in what is undoubtedly an issue of great importance to discuss this matter on the basis of the work which has been done by the Government. I recognise that this may mean that legislation is unlikely this Session; but a considerable amount of discussion is necessary on this important matter so that, on this occasion, we get it right, as we certainly did not in 1911.
The noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, referred to
proposals for broadcasting. We hope to put forward our proposals within the relatively near future. I agree with her that local radio is a matter of great importance. I am well aware that many communities that do not have local radios at the moment want it. It has a most important part to play in the development of life in local communities. That being so, it will undoubtedly form an important element of the proposals when we put them forward to Parliament.
The noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, asked me a direct question on devolution arising from something that was said by my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor. That was on the question of the timetable so far as the referenda on the Scotland and Wales Bills were concerned. It is proposed that the referenda should be held in Scotland and in Wales after the two Bills have received the Royal Assent but before they are brought into effect. The relevant section of the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum of the Scottish Bill makes this plain and I will quote it, if I may, because it puts the situation fairly clearly:

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"The first order bringing the Bill into operation is to be approved by both Houses of Parliament and the Bill provides that this order cannot be made until a referendum has been held in Scotland on the question whether the provisions of the Act should be brought into effect …".
There is a similar provision concerning the Wales Bill.
Lord BOYD-CARPENTER: My Lords, will the noble Lord allow me to ask whether that means that the order will be subject to the Affirmative Resolution procedure?
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: Exactly, my Lords. I should now like, as did the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, to refer to the two outstanding speeches we have had the benefit of hearing this afternoon: first, the speech of the noble Earl, Lord Liverpool, and, secondly, that of the noble Lord, Lord Chitnis. They both spoke with great force and conviction on matters of great importance and I certainly echo the view of the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, that we very much hope to hear them again. I will deal later, if I may, with some of the detailed points that were made by the noble Lord, Lord Chitnis.
The noble Earl raised an important question covering whooping cough vaccines. He indicated that the matter has troubled him greatly and I know it has received a substantial amount of attention outside this House in the recent past. The situation here is that the expert committee which has been set up by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Services is keeping this matter under constant review. The House will probably remember that, in June, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State announced that the Government had decided to accept in principle that there should be a scheme of payment for the benefit of those seriously damaged as a result of vaccination. Inevitably, the detailed provisions will have to await the Government's consideration of the report of the Royal Commission on Civil Liability. We expect to receive the report of the Royal Commission towards the end of this year. The Government stand by the commitment and we shall take steps to introduce any necessary legislation as soon as practicable after consideration has been given to the report.
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A number of those who have spoken today, and not least the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, have to some extent thought that we have got our priorities wrong in this House; sometimes we do not spend enough time discussing matters which are judged of great concern to the outside public, and we spend a great deal of time on matters which do not concern them to the same degree. Without forming a judgment on the reason for that particular analysis, I certainly think that, in some respects, we do spend too little time discussing certain matters—for example, in the area of law and order. Every year we have a debate in this House on the subject of prisons. For the three and a half years since I have been a Member, I cannot recall anyone putting down, or, perhaps, succeeding in, a Motion on the problems of the police force. That is a remarkable situation, given the very high degree of public concern about crime in our country.
Tonight I want to talk about this issue, about the dimensions of the problem and about the methods we are using to deal with the threat that crime and disorder present to our society. Let me deal first with the size of the problem. The noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, raised this in his speech, and I intervened. Although I agree with him that the situation is undoubtedly serious, I am bound to say that I do not feel that it justifies the kind of language he used. The fact is that the debate we are having today on this issue could be reproduced in the Parliaments in Rome, in Bonn, in Paris, in Washington and in any country in the Western industrialised world. It is not a uniquely British problem and it is crucially important to get that right. Having said that, it does not mean that this is not a matter of grave importance. Of course it is; and it is certainly our judgment that it is one of the most important issues which face this Government, as it will be for any succeeding Administration.
The reason is that, as in other countries, the amount of crime known to the police is rising steadily. The figures for the first half of 1977 show an increase of 11 per cent. over the corresponding period in 1976. The most disturbing element of this is that the number of offences of
violence against the person and of robbery show a particular tendency to increase.

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That justifies a great deal of the public concern that has been expressed. To give an illustration, in 1976, while offences known to the police rose by only 1 per cent.—and 1976, in terms of crime, was a remarkable year, in that crime did not rise as sharply as it has in other years—the number of robberies rose by 3 per cent. and the number of cases involving offences of violence against the person rose by 10 per cent. This year, the numbers have continued to rise but not to such a disproportionate degree. Of course, as I have said already, this is indeed a serious matter; but, in addition to the problem I have just mentioned, the police also have to devote substantial resources to the threat which is posed by terrorism, particularly in this country to that created by the IRA, and also to the threats facing us from other organisations.
Let me deal first with the IRA. So far as Great Britain is concerned, we have mercifully had a relatively peaceful year. Since the spate of incendiary bomb attacks in London and Liverpool in January, there have been no terrorist attacks on the mainland. One of the reasons for this has been the significant contribution made by preventive police action, and particularly by the controls at our sea and airports.
But there are not the slightest grounds for complacency because we could face a renewal of these attacks at any time. Indeed, I suspect that relatively few in this House, and perhaps even fewer outside it, are aware of the significance of an event in Dublin on 27th August of this year—an event which was reported in the Press at that time, though relatively briefly. On that day a large consignment of explosives, weapons and other materials was discovered in a container destined for Britain. A Dublin firm had been asked to deliver what was described as an empty container to a destination in Great Britain. When the container arrived at the docks in Dublin it was discovered that, because it was three inches too deep, it could not be loaded on to the ship. The transport firm, assuming that it was indeed an empty container, substituted another container of the right size to load on to that ship. That container was indeed empty and it was transported to this country. Not altogether surprisingly, the people who were here to receive
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it were not too pleased when they discovered that they had indeed got an empty container on their hands. As a result of their reaction, the person concerned became suspicious and the Irish police were informed. Inside the original container were discovered 96 ready-made incendiary devices and also sufficient explosives and detonators for over 50 bombs of four to five pounds each.
Let me remind the House that a bomb of half that size, at the Ideal Home exhibition in London last year, killed one person and injured over 80. The House will therefore realise without any difficulty the potential devastation which that consignment could have created, and the reason why it did not get here was three inches on the size of that container. The lesson in that situation is clear. We cannot possibly afford complacency in dealing with this situation. We cannot afford to relax our vigilance in any way whatever.
I think that the same clearly applies to the problem of international terrorist violence. This is a threat which is now experienced by pretty well the whole world community, and we see it in its sharpest focus in the industrialised democratic West. It ranges from the hijacking of an aircraft to the kidnapping of a private citizen for personal gain, to precisely the same action taken for avowedly political motives. It is, of course, this second problem, the one where political motives are involved, that confronts us all with the most severe challenge. Sometimes the kidnappers are men of considerable political sophistication and intelligence. They believe that if a democratic society can be subjected to a sufficiently high degree of violence, it will crumble. It is our task to ensure that these violent men and women do not succeed.
I am glad to say that this analysis is widely shared among our colleagues in the European Community. It was, indeed, because of this that the European Council agreed at its meeting in Paris in December 1975 to a proposal from the British Government that the Ministers of the Interior of the Member States should meet together to consider this problem, and a number of other important issues. The first of these meetings took place in Luxembourg in June last year, and the second in London in May this year when it was presided over

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by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary. As a result of these meetings, arrangements have been made for improving the exchange of information about terrorist acts, and the techniques for dealing with them. A number of working groups have been established in the technical field. And arrangements have been put in hand for the exchange of police personnel.
There will also be—and I think that this is a matter of great importance—far closer collaboration in the area of police training. Only a week ago, I had an opportunity to welcome at the police college at Bramshill the directors of the police academies of all the countries within the European Community. I believe that increased co-operation of this character within Europe is an essential element in our strategy to defeat the menace of international terrorism, and I am glad to say that we are beginning to achieve this collaboration. I know how heartened we all were by the remarkable success of the German Government over the affair of the hijacked Lufthansa jet. As an operation, it was superbly conceived and admirably executed, and I think that the whole House will want to congratulate Chancellor Schmidt on the outcome. I am glad to say that we were very pleased to be able to make some contribution.
I believe that co-operation of this character is of high importance, not only in limiting the terrorist threat but also in giving new significance to our commitment to the European Community. I think it is right to pay tribute today to all those who have played a part in securing what I believe has been a notable advance in collaboration between Member States of the Community—collaboration which has not received the degree of attention that some differences of opinion have sometimes secured, but which, nevertheless, is of crucial importance in maintaining the stability of democratic societies in Western Europe.
As I have already indicated, substantial police resources have had to be devoted to dealing with this problem of terrorist violence, and this at a time when their resources have been severely stretched because of the increased level of crime. So it is, I think, right to say a few words at this stage about police manpower and pay. Both of these issues have been
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raised in the course of the debate and, if I may, I shall deal with police manpower first. This is a point which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, who has always shown great interest in this matter and whose enthusiasm I very much welcome.
So far as manpower is concerned, the situation is this. At the end of September, the strength of the police in England and Wales was 108,704. The rate of recruitment is still well above the level in 1974 and, indeed, a new campaign is now beginning. But, certainly—and I accept this at once—there is a severe problem of wastage, and this is serious because we are losing men many of whom are highly experienced officers. Nevertheless, it is only right to point out that since the end of March 1974, when the present Government came to office, we have added about 8,000 to the strength of the police in England and Wales, and there has been a net gain of 1,500 officers so far as the Metropolitan Police are concerned.
The additional resources for the police, which were announced in the recent Statement in another place by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, will have two effects. First, they will enable the recruitment of additional civilians to assist the police in their work, and I hope that this will lead to the freeing of some policemen who are now doing jobs within police stations and get them on the beat. Secondly, there will be an increase of over 1,000 in the number of police cadets. I think that this is an important development, and I know that is it warmly welcomed within the Police Service.
I now come to the question of pay. I think that there has been significant progress on this. The House will be aware that on 27th October the Government offered the representatives of the Police Federation an immediate pay increase of 10 per cent., together with an inquiry covering pay and other matters. We were certainly very pleased that the police were able to accept this offer. As a result of it, a review body, under the chairmanship of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Edmund-Davies, will be going into this matter. It is already studying the police pay negotiating machinery, and the noble and learned Lord has very kindly now agreed to

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undertake this wider review. It will also consider the longer-term issue of the existing constitution, rights and duties of the Police Federation, in the light of developments in the field of industrial relations on which an inquiry was promised earlier in the year. We had some difficulties over this, which were well publicised. Nevertheless, at a time like this, I think we should all be very gratified that this matter was disposed of as it was, and I would certainly want to pay tribute to the reaction of the leadership of the Police Federation at a time of great difficulty.
I now turn to some of our other problems, particularly the problems of the prisons, which were dealt with by the noble Lord, Lord Chitnis. Certainly, so far as prisons are concerned, this has again been a difficult year. We continue to be faced with the dilemma posed by the two central problems of too many prisoners and not enough resources, and we must accept that we shall be constrained by these problems for a substantial period of time to come. But certainly there have been some welcome signs over the year. An all-time peak, so far as the prison population is concerned, was reached in October last year, when there were 42,419 people in prison. This year, the average prison population has been just over 41,600, which figure is about 200 higher than for the same period last year. Nevertheless, the overall figure tended to stay below 42,000. Certainly the prison capital building programme, like many other building programmes of central Government, is now very modest indeed.
Even here there is something encouraging to report. Despite all the difficulties, about 1,200 new places were completed last year, including a new prison at Featherstone, near Wolverhampton, and last July I opened a new prison at High-point in Suffolk. Here some interesting and, I think, important innovative work is going on, as it is at Deerbolt Borstal in County Durham and at Channings Wood Prison in Devon. This deals to some extent with the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Chitnis, in his speech. Here people are being trained to do useful work, in that they are building the new prisons. They are being trained on site as building workers, and hopefully when they leave prison they will be in a far better
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position to be able to get a job. That is indeed the precise point which the noble Lord, Lord Chitnis, raised in his speech.
I believe that it is a programme of great hope and importance. As I have indicated, first it gives the inmates useful work to do. Second, it teaches many of them new skills and improves their opportunity to get a job when they leave prison. Lastly, it saves the taxpayer a significant sum of money. As a result of all these current developments, we shall have another 2,000 places in the prison system by the middle of 1979.
The noble Lord, Lord Chitnis, asked me a number of fairly detailed questions on career guidance. I was proposing to deal now with those questions, but if the noble Lord will forgive me for not doing so now I will write to him. I do not know whether the noble Lord agrees?
Lord CHITNIS: Yes, my Lords.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: My Lords, I am obliged. Only a relatively short time ago, at the end of June, when we had a debate in this House which was initiated by my noble friend Lord Longford, I discussed one particular problem which we face which is as serious now as it was then—that is, the presence in prison of several hundreds of offenders who are suffering from mental disorder: people who, in the opinion of prison medical officers, are in need of care and treatment in psychiatric hospitals. These people stretch our already inadequate resources to the limit and they place an unenviable burden on all those who are responsible for their welfare.
This very difficult situation is part of a wider set of problems in the sphere of mental health which was examined by the Committee on Mentally Abnormal Offenders headed by the noble Lord, Lord Butler. The Committee made many recommendations intended to ensure that the provision of psychiatric treatment for those offenders in most need of it was dealt with more satisfactorily. The recommendations made by Lord Butler and his colleagues are now receiving close consideration by the Government. The Department of Health and Social Security and the Home Office are working together to try to give the fullest possible effect to what the Committee described as the

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guiding principle in this area: that mentally disordered offenders should be sent wherever they can best be given the treatment that they need.
Our central policy objective remains, as I indicated on that occasion, to divert people from the prisons, where this can be done with safety to the public. I believe that we are achieving this objective in a number of ways. Dealing first with community service, the increasing availability of arrangements for community service orders which now exist in full in 33 probation areas, and in parts of 21 others, and the growth of the confidence of the courts in them, demonstrate that community service is becoming a disposal of great significance. The number of people who have had these orders made against them has risen significantly. In 1975 there were 2,900; last year there were 8,700; and the indications are that the numbers for this year will be even higher.
We have now decided to make available next year additional resources, to enable the Probation Service to extend and to strengthen community service schemes. As a result, the whole of England and Wales should be covered by community service by the end of the next financial year. Secondly, I believe that prisons will get additional relief as a result of some of the provisions of this year's Criminal Law Act. May I take only two examples which were discussed in this House during the passage of the Bill: the abolition of imprisonment for the offence of being drunk and disorderly, and the considerable reductions in periods of imprisonment for which those in default of payment of fines will in future be liable. We are also pressing on with the provision of more bail hostels. Here people can remain while awaiting trial as an alternative to being remanded in custody. There are now seven of these hostels which is, I accept, a very modest number. Nevertheless, another 15 are in various stages of preparation. In addition, as a result of discussions which we have had, the majority of probation hostels now admit men and women on bail.
Let me say this in conclusion. As I have indicated, I believe that increasing crime is a problem of mounting concern to our people, in just the same way as it is throughout the rest of Europe and in the United States. Unless it is checked, it
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can do grievous damage to our society. We have to face the fact that there are in this situation no easy solutions, no simple short cuts away from our present difficulties. What is required is the recognition that the battle against crime must be regarded as one of our highest national priorities. In this situation, the police deserve and require the firm and resolute backing of both Parliament and people.
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Goronwy-Roberts, I beg to move that the debate be now adjourned until tomorrow.
Moved, That the debate be now adjourned until tomorrow.—(Lord Strabolgi.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and debate adjourned accordingly.

  SPECIAL CONSTABULARY: RETIREMENT
  SPECIAL CONSTABULARY: RETIREMENT
  SPECIAL CONSTABULARY: STRENGTH
  SPECIAL CONSTABULARY: STRENGTH
  CIVIL LIABILITY AND PERSONAL INJURY COMPENSATION
  CIVIL LIABILITY AND PERSONAL INJURY COMPENSATION
  CRIMINAL INJURIES COMPENSATION SCHEME
  CRIMINAL INJURIES COMPENSATION SCHEME