Sitting of 31 March 1977

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  GREATER LONDON COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL (By Order)
  Order for Second Reading read.
  To be read a Second time upon Tuesday next at Seven o'clock.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  HOME DEPARTMENT

    Rape Charges (Bailed Defendants)
    Mr. Michael McNair-Wilsonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what percentage of men accused of rape in 1976 was released on bail.
    The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Brynmor John): The latest year for which information is available is 1975. In that year, 60 per cent. of men committed for trial at the Crown courts on a charge of rape were granted bail by the magistrates' court on committal.
    Mr. McNair-Wilson: Does the Minister think that bail is given too easily? Is he aware that in more than 50 per cent. of rape cases the rapist is known to his victim and that in many cases where the accused is released on bail pressure is brought to bear on the victim to withdraw the accusation?
    Mr. John: Bail is not granted too easily. Indeed, a criticism which has been made—and it is one that I share—is that bail has been withheld in far too many cases in the past, thus putting an unnecessary strain on prison resources. The fact that there are now more complaints about rape offences means that
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    people are less easily deterred from making complaints. The Act which was recently passed concerning anonymity for the complainant will help in that direction.
    Mr. Corbett: Has my hon. Friend seen the first report of the Rape Crisis Centre which was published today and which comments on this matter? I take my hon. Friend's point about access to bail in these cases, but will he look at the suggestion that, because of the instances in which the defendant is known to the complainant, bail should be accompanied by an order covering non-molestation?
    Mr. John: Decisions on bail and the conditions imposed are matters for magistrates. I have frequently said that we do not interfere with the discretion of the courts in making these decisions. I shall, however, study the report to which my hon. Friend has referred.
    Mr. Sims: I accept the point that the Minister has made about the working of the Bail Act, but does he agree that in these cases, apart from considering the particular criteria laid down in the Act, the magistrates' courts should take account of the feelings of a woman who has been raped? If bail is granted, she knows that her assailant is at large. Will the Minister give guidance on this aspect?
    Mr. John: It is not for me to give guidance. The guidance given to magistrates is contained in the Act, and if they use it wisely and sensibly the right result will obtain.

    Police (Disciplinary Procedures)
    Mr. Ronald Atkinsasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he remains satisfied with the law on the procedures for dealing with police disciplinary cases in the light of the recent report involving the Chief Constable of Lancashire.
    Mr. George Rodgersasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he remains satisfied with the law relating to police disciplinary procedures in the light of the recent case involving the Chief Constable of Lancashire.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Merlyn Rees): The proceedings in which the Chief Constable of Lancashire is involved conform to the

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    arrangements laid down in the existing discipline regulations for senior officers which, following the passage of the Police Act 1976, are about to be consolidated in regulations that will be laid before the House on 6th April and will come into effect for charges preferred on or after 1st June.
    When the disciplinary proceedings in which the Chief Constable of Lancashire is now involved have been completed, I shall consider whether any more substantial changes are called for in the disciplinary arrangements for senior police officers.
    Mr. Atkins: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Lancashire police tribunal is not considering the more serious cases including what has been described as the most disturbing involving the deaths of my former constituents Mrs. Tierney and Mrs. Moyle, in which there was intervention by County Councillor Leonard Broughton, the Chairman of Lancashire County Council? What action will the Home Secretary take on this?
    Mr. Rees: I am currently in difficulty over a particular case. If the chief constable admits or is found guilty of an offence he will have a right of appeal to me, so it would be improper for me to comment on the case apart from considering changing the rules. I am fully aware of what I must do if an appeal is brought to me.
    Mr. Rodgers: I appreciate the Home Secretary's difficulties in these circumstances, but does he accept that the police committee is referring sections of the report to an independent inquiry and that there is considerable disquiet that certain of the charges will not be referred to the inquiry? In those circumstances, should not my right hon. Friend be prepared to investigate further?
    Mr. Rees: The Chief Constable of Hampshire was appointed by the Lancashire Police Authority to investigate alleged offences by the Chief Constable of Lancashire. I have complete confidence in the Chief Constable of Hampshire, and I must leave the matter there because of my involvement in any appeal.
    Mr. Carlisle: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the deliberate leaking of the report of the Chief Constable
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    of Hampshire was most unfortunate and particularly unfair to those involved? Would it not be better if all comment were withheld until the full inquiry is completed?
    Mr. Rees: A report was made by the Chief Constable of Hampshire and it went to the Lancashire Police Authority for investigation. If such a report is leaked it prevents proper investigation of the matter, and that is something that I shall have to take into account when I consider any changes in methods.

    Crime (Urban Areas)
    Mr. Hodgsonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department to what causes he attributes the rise in the number of crimes of violence, burglary, larceny and housebreaking in the large towns and cities.
    Mr. John: Many forms of crime have been increasing, especially in urban areas, for many years. I doubt the value of speculation about the causes: remedial action is more important, and I am encouraged by the indications that the amount of crime does not seem to be increasing at as fast a rate as formerly.
    Mr. Hodgson: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that a major cause of crime is that the police forces in our urban areas are under strength? What plans do the Government have to bring them up to strength and to make our streets safe to walk again?
    Mr. John: The strength of the West Midlands police force, for example, increased by about 4 per cent. last year.
    Mr. Edward Gardner: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that more than one-quarter of all serious crimes involving violence in our cities and large towns and more than half of all burglaries and robberies are committed by children under the age of 17? Now that the Government have these somewhat startling statistics before them, is it not time that the workings of the Children and Young Persons Act 1969 should be looked at again and that the possibility of restoring to magistrates the powers taken away from them by that Act should be reconsidered?
    Mr. John: The problem of juvenile crime worries many of us, but the hon.

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    and learned Gentleman fails to recognise that we keep the Act under continuous review and that it was brought in because of the thoroughly unsatisfactory situation that existed before 1969 when magistrates had the powers to which he refers.
    Mr. Ioan Evans: As juvenile delinquency forms a large part of statistics, would my hon. Friend comment on the success of the community service orders in North London that have had a great effect in solving the problem of young offenders?
    Mr. John: I pay tribute to that form of punishment. It has been a first-class innovation.
    Mr. Edward Gardner
    Mr. John: I see that the hon. and learned Member for Runcorn (Mr. Carlisle), who helped to pilot it through, is here. The system has been first-class, and it gives us hope that punishment can be achieved in a non-custodial way that will not be thought of as merely soft.
    Sir. W Elliott: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that in the light of the considerable level of crime, particularly violent crimes in some city centres, this is no time to be reducing civilian aid to police forces?
    Mr. John: No programme can be exempt at a time of financial stringency, but I am convinced that our programme of spending more on law and order in real terms and increasing the number of police, as has happened in the past two years, is the right course to adopt.

    Computers and Privacy
    Mr. Formanasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is satisfied with the present state of the law as it affects questions to do with computers and privacy.
    Mr. John: In the White Paper "Computers and Privacy", published in December 1975, the Government announced that there was a need for legislation in this field. The content of the proposed legislation is under consideration by the Data Protection Committee appointed last year.
    Mr. Forman: Is it not time that the Government got a move on in this matter
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    as it is now seven years since the problem was first officially identified with the appointment of the Younger Committee? Would it not be a good idea for the Government to give a commitment today of their intention to set up a data protection authority with licensing and enforcement powers?
    Mr. John: The Government published a White Paper in December 1975 and the Data Protection Committee started work in December last year. It would be premature for me to accept the hon. Gentleman's invitation.
    Mr. Whitehead: As there is a need to make progress following these very lengthy consultations, will my hon. Friend give an undertaking that proposals will be contained in the next Queen's Speech?
    Mr. John: I shall give no such undertaking. My undertaking is that when the committee brings forward proposals about the form and content of legislation we shall give them the closest possible examination.
    Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that most European countries, particularly the Federal Republic of Germany, already have statutes protecting the individual in this way and that we are way behind other people? Will he give the committee a prod to see that we get its report in the near future?
    Mr. John: I am sure the committee is aware that its report is eagerly anticipated, but I cannot tell the hon. and learned Gentleman when it will be produced. The committee started work only four months ago. Hon. Members opposite always want two objectives—perfect solutions reached immediately, or sooner.

    European Parliament (Direct Elections)
    Mr. Simsasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he expects to publish the White Paper on direct elections to the European Parliament.
    Mr. Merlyn Rees: The White Paper will be published tomorrow.
    Mr. Sims: I am grateful for that confirmation. Can the right hon. Gentleman

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    assure us that we shall have an opportunity to debate the White Paper very soon after Christmas? [Interruption.] I apologise for my confusion—I mean very soon after Easter. Will that debate be swiftly followed by a Bill so that it can be enacted and allow the United Kingdom to keep its commitment on this matter to its EEC partners?
    Mr. Rees: It is a very good White Paper, but I cannot give the commitment on a date for which the hon. Gentleman asks. Perhaps I should just wish him a happy new year.
    Mr. Madden: Whether we debate the White Paper after Easter, after Christmas or after next year, will my right hon. Friend convey to his right hon. Friend the fact that many of us believe that it is most important for there to be a free vote not only on the method by which these elections should take place but on the principle?
    Mr. Rees: I can undertake that my hon. Friend's message will be delivered.
    Mr. Whitelaw: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how the Government intend to give the House the opportunity to vote on the electoral system to be adopted?
    Mr. Rees: No, I cannot. A statement has been made about the method of elections. I have been considering this complicated matter in some depth in recent weeks and in my mind has been the fact that, whether we stick to the existing system which has stood the test of 150 years or more or move in another direction, we must give the matter deep consideration—whether making a change or staying where we are—and not take the leap in the dark that is sometimes taken on electoral matters.
    Mr. Whitelaw: There is no suggestion of taking a leap in the dark. Can the right hon. Gentleman at least give an undertaking that the House will be given an opportunity to vote on the particular system and express its choice before a Bill is published with a particular system laid down in it?
    Mr. Rees: I can go no further than what was said about the method by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House last week.
    Mr. Marten: In view of the recent weather that we have experienced, I do not think that my hon. Friend the Member for Chislehurst (Mr. Sims) was necessarily out of order in talking about Christmas. On the point raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Whitelaw), may we have an assurance that the vote on the proportional representation aspect will be quite separate from any vote on the White Paper as a whole? That is very important.
    Mr. Rees: I can go no further than what was said by my right hon. Friend last week. I understand the hon. Gentleman's point, and his remarks will be taken into account.

    Released Broadmoor Patients
    Mr. Brothertonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many persons released from Broadmoor have been convicted of murder since 1945.
    Mr. John: I regret that particulars for the whole period since 1945 are not readily available, but for information relating to patients discharged since 1960 I would refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply I gave to a Question by the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Macfarlane) on 28th March.
    Mr. Brotherton: Is the Minister aware that there is grave concern throughout the country about the number of people who have been released from places such as Broadmoor and from prison and have subsequently committed murder? Will he give an undertaking that the Government will review the system of the release of prisoners, particularly those released on parole, so that people may be assured that it is the Government's intention to try to protect the citizen?
    Mr. John: It is the Government's intention to protect the citizen. Anyone who has held ministerial office in the Home Office will know that anxious consideration is given to the transfer or conditional discharge of those upon whom a restriction order has been made under the Mental Health Acts. When the hon. Gentleman studies the statistics and compares them with the number of people who have been released, the apprehension that he expresses will be seen in

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    better perspective. It is only a small percentage, although any further offence is sad and causes those who released the person the gravest anxiety. This is a matter that must not be exaggerated.
    Mr. Stephen Ross: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there are quite a number of people, especially younger persons, in Broadmoor who should not be there, and that the question of not releasing should be considered in that respect? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that if there were more suitable secure places for such people it would be very much better if they could be allowed to go to them?
    Mr. John: There are many institutions that could benefit from the creation of auxiliary institutions more suited to particular people. The fact is that no one in Broadmoor—certainly none of the specialists to whom I have spoken—is in any way desirous of keeping people at that institution after the need for so doing has passed.
    Mr. Molloy: Would my hon. Friend be prepared to seek discussions with the Confederation of Health Service Employees, which has many members employed in mental institutions of every character? Its members have an intimate knowledge of the administration and many of the problems of such institutions. I feel sure that they would be able to proffer him reasonable guidance and advice and make their contribution to resolving a difficult problem.
    Mr. John: We should be delighted to do so.

    Home Secretary (Engagements)
    Mrs. Wiseasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what are his official engagements for 31st March.
    Mr. Merlyn Rees: This morning I attended a meeting of the Cabinet. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding further meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, I shall dine with the Justices' Clerks Society, and I will be participating afterwards in a television programme on the Stechford by-election.
    Mrs. Wise: I wonder whether my right hon. Friend can find time in that busy day to give some further thought to the Philip Agee case? In particular, will he ensure that he sees original raw evidence
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    relating to the matter rather than relying on the second-hand reports of his advisers?
    Mr. Rees: I can assure my hon. Friend that in a matter such as this I do not rely on my advisers. I have taken the decision myself. The decision I took was right. I should not have announced it in the House if I had thought otherwise.
    Mr. Powell: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that he would be likely to be able to give more satisfactory answers if the Questions addressed to him disclosed the subject matter and were not of a generalised character, which has unfortunately become prevalent in Questions to the Prime Minister?
    Mr. Rees: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman.
    Mrs. Wise: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I wonder whether in considering that matter Ministers and others will also bear in mind that many subjects are refused acceptance by the Table Office, which makes the task of Back Benchers extremely difficult.
    Several Hon. Members—
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Christopher Price.
    Mr. Christopher Price: Will my right hon. Friend reassure us that there will be no question of deportation until all the legal procedures have been gone through, not only in the English courts but in recourse to the European Commission of Human Rights at Strasbourg?
    Mr. Rees: I have tried carefully to allow this matter to go along while matters are being taken to the courts in this country. One of the people concerned was dealt with expeditiously by the European Commission. I shall bear all this in mind. I have no wish not to allow that aspect of natural justice to take its course, but I have to make a judgment at the end of the day.

    Cannabis
    Mr. McCrindleasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he plans to introduce legislation amending penalties for the possession or use of cannabis.
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Dr. Shirley Summerskill): Provisions in the Criminal

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    Law Bill, at present in another place, designed to implement recommendations of the James Committee, already include consequential amendments of the penalties available to magistrates' courts for unlawful possession of cannabis.
    Mr. McCrindle: Is the hon. Lady confirming that, to clear up the confusion that has existed under the Misuse of Drugs Act, it is proposed that the possession of small amounts of cannabis should in future be legal? Will she further confirm that the Home Office has no plans to legislate along the lines of recent liberalising legislation in the United States on the use of cannabis?
    Dr. Summerskill: The answer to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question is that under the proposed amendment the penalties for the possession or use of cannabis will be reduced in that the period of imprisonment will be reduced to three months and the fine will be increased to £500. At present, there is a maximum period of imprisonment on summary conviction of six months and/or a maximum fine of £400. As for the hon. Gentleman's second point, as he may know, the amendment was defeated in another place. The Government are now seriously considering arguments for removing the power to imprison for a first offence and are taking the advice of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Is my hon. Friend aware of the good advice that was given some years ago by the Wootton Committee? Will she ensure that its advice is followed even at this late date?
    Dr. Summerskill: I can only repeat that the Government are considering the matter. Obviously, they will take into consideration the Wootton Report.
    Sir. W Elliott: Will the hon. Lady bear in mind always when thinking of liberalising the law in this regard that the pod of cannabis is considered to be highly dangerous and that it is only the leaf that is not? Does she consider it highly undesirable that an article should have appeared recently suggesting that cannabis is no more harmful than a pint of Newcastle brown ale?
    Dr. Summerskill: At one time I was a member of the Advisory Council on the
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    Misuse of Drugs. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I am aware of the points he has made.
    Mr. Lipton: Is my hon. Friend aware that, notwithstanding that the various changes she has announced are likely to take place in the near future, the law relating to cannabis will continue to be in a mess and that the sooner it is repealed and cannabis is allowed to be sold in tobacconists' shops under the same licence as that permitting the sale of tobacco, the better it will be for everyone concerned? Such a course would save a lot of money and save the police a lot of work.
    Dr. Summerskill: I think that my hon. Friend has gone to the extreme of the argument, but we have noted what he has said.

    Football Hooliganism
    Mr. Walter Johnsonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what proposals he has for dealing with football hooliganism; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Merlyn Rees: This is a subject to which I and my colleagues have given a good deal of recent attention together with representatives of chief constables and the football organisations. I propose to hold a further meeting soon to review the position. However, it would be unrealistic not to accept that there are clear limits to what can be done nationally. What really matters is effective operational co-operation at local level. Here the necessary measures to deal with hooliganism are being taken by police forces with the fullest co-operation of football clubs and organisations, supporters' organisations and transport undertakings.
    In addition, substantial increases in the maximum fines and amounts of compensation which offenders may be ordered to pay on summary conviction of offences associated with hooliganism are proposed in the Criminal Law Bill.
    Mr. Johnson: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the position is getting steadily worse on match days and that my constituents have to barricade doors and windows, keep the young and old off the streets and make good the damage that these louts leave behind? It is no good

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    pussyfooting around. Fines will not do. A tougher line must be taken by magistrates. I ask my right hon. Friend to advise them accordingly.
    Mr. Rees: Magistrates must make up their own minds. I think that getting involved with the magistrates in the way suggested would be a bad thing. Perhaps the House in general will not know of the problems that my hon. Friend brought to my notice through a delegation the other day. I thought that I had seen a great deal of this problem, but around the Derby County ground there has taken place the most incredible hooliganism. The chief constable is concerned about it and is trying to do something about it.
    Mr. Carlisle: Is not one proposal that the Home Secretary should extend the number of attendance centres that are available, so that those who behave in this way can in future be required to spend their Saturday afternoons at an attendance centre rather than a football match?
    Mr. Rees: I think that is right. We have 60 junior attendance centres. I think that that is the way to proceed. Some of the cases that have been brought to my notice by my hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mr. Johnson) deserve far more than an attendance centre. What has happened in one small part around the Derby County ground is quite incredible.
    Mr. Bidwell: Many of us have been keen followers of the sport of football over many years. Does my right hon. Friend agree that on football hooliganism there are indications of mistaken thinking, especially relating to the possibility of the flogging of offenders and the possibility of mistaken identity, which cannot help the situation in any way whatsoever? Is not this seriously a matter not only for the police and club officials but for soccer enthusiasts as a whole? The encaging of youngsters in football grounds is an absurd situation into which we are running, yet that goes on in the present setting. The bulk of supporters do not lend a proper hand.
    Mr. Rees: The problem of mistaken identity could arise anywhere, but there has been a change in hooliganism at football matches over the years and it is
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    extremely worrying to ordinary people who attend matches.

    Ethnic Communities
    Mr. Peter Bottomleyasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what recent contact he has had with representatives of ethnic minority communities in the United Kingdom.
    Mr. John: As the Minister with special responsibilities for race relations matters, I have in recent months, on behalf of my right hon. Friend, met a large number of such representatives, both during visits to different areas of the country and at the Home Office. My right hon. Friend, in addition to contact through correspondence, has himself met representatives of local minority groups from time to time and hopes to extend personal contacts of this kind as his other commitments allow.
    Mr. Bottomley: Will the Minister consult representatives of ethnic minority communities about the positive recommendations of the recent Select Committee report and undertake to ensure that there is a full debate in the House as soon as possible, because the recommendations are worthy of full discussion very soon?
    Mr. John: I have discussed the question of West Indian teenages and young people with minority community leaders already, but I shall certainly redouble that in the light of the report that I have just received. On the question of a debate, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House will be responsible for that but I shall draw the hon. Gentleman's words to his attention.
    Mr. Budgen: When the Minister meets the ethnic groups, will he discuss with them the very serious and growing problem of overstaying, and the possibility of introducing some form of internal check to prevent overstaying? If he is not prepared to introduce such checks, what other measures is he prepared to take?
    Mr. John: The Home Office is looking at the question of overstaying, as my right hon. Friend promised would be done. However, members of minority communities to whom I have spoken are certainly as conscious as anyone of the damage to race relations that overstaying does.
    Mr. Loyden: In any reassessment of the community relations situation, will my hon. Friend ensure that consideration is given to the areas in which there is a great need for a presence? Will he look at the Liverpool situation, for instance, where there is an intended movement away of part of the CRE offices?
    Mr. John: I understand what my hon. Friend has said. Along with other Liverpool Members, he has written to me about the proposed regional structure of the CRE. I have drawn this to the attention of the chairman. As a regional Member myself, I shall press him on the matter.

    Police (Pay)
    Mr. Adleyasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on the progress of negotiations with the police on their outstanding pay claim.
    Mr. Aitkenasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a further statement on the situation in regard to police pay negotiations with the Police Federation.
    Mr. Merlyn Rees: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister met representatives of the Police Federations for England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland who constitute the Staff Side of Committee C of the Police Council on 7th March and requested them to return to the Police Council to settle their claim. A meeting of the Police Council took place on 15th March. The representatives of the Police Federation for Scotland attended but the representatives of the Federations for England and Wales and Northern Ireland refused the invitation. Sir John Nightingale, the Chairman of the Police Council, has undertaken to examine with the Police Federations and other interested parties means of settling the dispute. One meeting has already taken place and another has been arranged. I very much hope that these discussions will lead to a resolution of these difficult issues at a time when other organisations are putting their minds to phase 3.
    Mr. Adley: Is not the Home Secretary aware that the police feel that their dedication to duty is taken for granted and that it is a weightless factor in negotiations,
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    notwithstanding the social contract? Is he also aware that the police feel that the Home Secretary has broken faith with them and that all they have got from the Prime Minister is a promise of jam tomorrow and a lecture on the economy? In view of the state of the economy, the rise in unemployment and the current inflation rate, does not the Home Secretary realise the importance of the police having faith in him and the Government?
    Mr. Rees: All I can tell the hon. Gentleman is that in 1975, when pay policy started, I was present in the Cabinet when the police were given 30 per cent. instead of £6. That was done on the basis that the police needed special attention. Anyone who says the contrary to that is flying in the face of the facts. They were given special attention. What has been wrong since I have been Home Secretary is that people have not attended the proper negotiating machinery. How one negotiates when people are not sitting around the table is something that eludes me.
    Several Hon. Members—
    Mr. Speaker: I ought perhaps to alert the hon. Member for Thanet, East (Mr. Aitken) that his Question is being answered with this one.
    Mr. Corbett: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that it is still open to the Police Federation to go back to the joint negotiating body to discuss ways of changing the negotiating procedure and talk about some adjustment to fringe benefits?
    Mr. Rees: That is so. However, I understand the problem of the Police Federation and the negotiating machinery, but apart from discussing the 5 per cent., £2·50 and a maximum of £4 a week we have discussed three forward commitments with it—all marginal, I accept—and other matters concerning widows of police officers who died in service, and commutation. We have promised a review of police negotiating machinery, including the constitution of the Police Federation.
    I should like to point out—the facts of the matter ought to be made clear—that in the arrangements within the police forces rent allowances are increased every two years. Effectively they are not subject to tax. It is right that the police should

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    be in the situation. However, I do not think people realize the increases in rent allowance that are being made for police forces at present.
    Mr. Speaker: Mr. Aitken.
    Mr. Aitken: I am most grateful to you, Mr. Speaker.
    Is the Home Secretary aware that it is unrealistic of him to indicate, as he seemed to be doing in his reply, that there should be a return to the existing negotiating machinery, because it has failed badly in the past? Does he not realise that the initiatives in this matter are now firmly in the Prime Minister's court and that it is idle to blame anyone else?
    Mr. Rees: The local authorities, which pay a substantial part of the money for police pay, are not amused by the attitude of some that they should be left out of negotiations that are laid down by statute. The people of the local authorities belong not to one political party but to many. I have to take into account the statutory arrangements. I have said that I understand the position of the Police Federation, but I want to find a means of negotiating. Things are happening now in that respect, but negotiation there must be.
    Mr. Eldon Griffiths: The House knows of my interest in this subject. We are now facing a very serious situation. Will the Home Secretary accept that there is not much time left before the moderate leaders of the Police Federation are replaced by those who would follow the bad example of other occupations and perhaps take industrial action in order to pursue this claim? Will the right hon. Gentleman bend his mind above all else to avoiding what would be a disaster for the nation if that were to happen? He can settle the matter, and I believe that he ought to do so.
    Mr. Rees: The hon. Member, who is involved in these discussions, says that I can settle the matter. By that he means, I suppose, that I should break the pay policy. If he does not mean that, let us negotiate. Then one can negotiate within pay policy, but that is not being done at the moment except at the fringes. I am happy to help in any way I can, but I cannot ignore the local authorities, which have a statutory part to play.

    Prison Population
    Mr. Ioan Evansasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what further considerations had been given to proposals to reduce the prison population.
    Mr. John: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply given to his similar Question on 18th November last and to what was said by my right hon. Friend during the Supply Day debate on 27th January and by myself in replying to the debate on prisons on the motion of the hon. and learned Member for Royal Tunbridge Wells (Mr. Mayhew) on Friday 18th March.
    Mr. Evans: Will my hon. Friend consider some sort of radical alternative to imprisonment? In view of his encouragement earlier on the question of community service orders, will he consider their extension in future, since it now costs up to £100 a week—about £5,000 a year—to keep someone in prison and there should be a more positive way in which people who have committed crimes against society can repay their debts by doing something constructive?
    Mr. John: Of course, we are always willing to consider non-custodial sentences. What I have said shows that. But I ask my hon. Friend not to fall into the trap of believing that non-custodial methods of treatment are available free. They themselves cost money and the prisons will still demand a substantial amount of expenditure, unless we get the prison population down so low that we can actually close a prison or two.
    Mr. Sims: Will the Minister accept that an alternative to imprisonment is to deprive the offender of his liberty at the weekends by means of attendance centres, for instance? However, whereas, as his right hon. Friend said just now, there are 60 attendance centres for juniors, there are only two for older offenders. Will he reconsider the Home Office attitude to extending this system for older offenders?
    Mr. John: The phasing out of attendance centres for the older prisoners is known, but we are extending other forms of non-custodial treatment because we believe that the prison population is too high and that non-custodial methods will better rehabilitate the majority of criminals.

    Offenders (Blood Donorship)
    Miss Fookesasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will consider the possibility of requiring suitable offenders to become blood donors as part of the repayment of their debt to society.
    Mr. John: No, Sir.
    Miss Fookes: Will the Minister reconsider that answer, or at least consider this suggestion as an alternative under community service order projects?
    Mr. John: No. The voluntary donation of blood is the principle upon which the National Transfusion Service has been based, and it is a principle that we would hot wish to change. However, I notice that the latter-day Portia has reversed "The Merchant of Venice". The Original Portia wanted flesh without blood: the hon. Lady wants blood without flesh.

    Migrant Workers (Voting Powers)
    Mr. Townsendasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what plans he has to allow migrant workers to vote in local elections after a suitable qualifying period of residence.
    Mr. John: None at present.
    Mr. Townsend: Is the Minister aware of the healthy increase in worker mobility in the Community in recent years, and will he ensure that the Home Office does not fall behind events yet again?
    Mr. John: The hon. Gentleman will know that a working party was set up by the Heads of Government in December 1974 to make proposals on this very subject. We are awaiting its proposals. We shall then study them and see how they can be incorporated in legislation.
    Mr. Mellish: Does my hon. Friend agree that this is a daft Question. Would it not even come to the point of considering how much blood should be given according to the type of crime committed?
    Hon. Members: Wrong Question, Bob.

    Sentencing Policy
    Mrs. René Shortasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what review of sentencing policy is now taking place; and by whom.
    Mr. John: The Advisory Council on the Penal System is currently reviewing the general structure and level of maximum sentences of imprisonment available to the courts; and, as I indicated in my speech in the debate on prisons on 18th March, the Home Office keeps under review the sentencing powers of the courts and the use made of them in relation to available penal resources.
    Mrs. Short: Will my hon. Friend consider the experience of Holland, where all but the most serious offenders are treated within the community with the help of volunteers from the community and where the crime rate has not increased?
    Mr. John: We shall certainly look at all the examples. As I have said, we are anxious to adopt the most appropriate forms of non-custodial sentence where those will give genuine benefits to the population.

  MINISTERIAL BROADCASTS
  Mr Gryllsasked the Prime Minister when he next itnends to make a ministerial broadcast.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan): I refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Madden) on 7th December.
  Mr. Grylls: Will the Prime Minister accept that he should make another broadcast, because there is a lot of doubt in people's minds about the present farcical situation over the entente cordiale between the Liberal and Socialist Parties? For example, what is the Joint Executive Committee? Is it a secret talking shop? Does it have executive powers? Will its minutes be published? What has it decided about the petrol tax? People want to know. Will he tell the country?
  The Prime Minister: After my two broadcast last week, which met with a generally favourable reception, I should of course be very happy to take up further invitations. However, having watched the two Budget broadcasts—the excellent one by the Chancellor and the feeble reply given last night—I am content to leave it to a judgment between the two teams. As for the other matters

  569
  that the hon. Gentleman has raised, I think that he has overlooked my Answer on this matter on Tuesday.
  Mr. Spearing: If my right hon. Friend makes a ministerial broadcast in the near future, will he explain to the British public why the White Paper of the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath) and every successive official Government publication concerning the terms of the Common Market have contained no mention of the claimed obligation to direct elections, yet we have a Bill on the subject? Will he explain this to the British public, who have been duped once already on the Common Market?
  The Prime Minister: I do not think that there is any question of duping the British public on this matter. The commitment was quite clear. It is written into the Treaty. It has been well understood by everyone except my hon. Friend, who chose to ignore it in the course of his anti-Market campaign last year.
  Mr. McCrindle: If the right hon. Gentleman broadcasts on the Lib-Lab pact, will he contradict the suggestion of the Leader of the Liberal Party that one of its benefits is that we shall not be having the nationalisation of the banks and the insurance companies? Will he confirm that that proposal was not in the Labour Party manifesto and that, therefore, we should not have had it anyway during the present Parliament?
  The Prime Minister: I think that the hon. Member has overlooked the reply that I gave on this matter on Tuesday.

  PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY
  Mr. Aitkenasked the Prime Minister if he will list the responsibilities of the Patronage Secretary.
  The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow) on 29th March.
  Mr. Aitken: Is the right hon. Gentleman not now feeling a little sorry for his Patronage Secretary, who, like everyone else, seems to have been taken for a complete ride by the increasingly dubious nature of the Lib-Lab alliance?
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  Is he aware that he himself has been had for a mug by one of the first fruits of this deal with the Liberals—namely, the document submitted to him by the Liberals which is the Liberal terms over devolution and which has today been discovered not to have been written by the Liberal Party at all? Did he know when he received this document from the Liberal leader that it was, in fact, a photocopy of a memorandum written by a pressure group known as the Outer Circle? Just who is kidding whom over this latest Liberal cock-up involving political plagiarism?
  The Prime Minister: I think that the hon. Gentleman must have overlooked the reply that I gave on this matter earlier this week.
  Mr. Speaker: Mr. Jack Ashley.
  Mr. Ashley—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Will the hon. Gentleman begin again? He was speaking during the noise.
  Mr. Ashley: Certainly, Mr. Speaker. I can appreciate the outcry. Do not the indignation and the anxiety expressed by Conservative Members about the arrangement made by my right hon. Friend with the Liberals indicate that it is very seriously damaging to them, and that, therefore, this is a powerful argument for continuing it, at any rate on a temporary basis?
  The Prime Minister: I do not wish to answer questions of this kind on inter-party relationships.
  Mr. Blaker: Is the Prime Minister aware that his answers this afternoon are simply not good enough? Will he now at least answer the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Thanet, East (Mr. Aitken)?
  Hon. Members: Answer.
  Mr. Heffer: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of us are not surprised that the Patronage Secretary has become somewhat confused because in Liverpool, for example, the Liberals seem to be much more concerned with an alliance with the Conservative Party against the Labour Party whereas in this House they seem to be more concerned about an agreement with the Labour Party against

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  the Conservative Party? Perhaps one day my right hon. Friend may get a really clear answer as to where the Liberals stand.
  The Prime Minister: All that may be the truth, but I do not propose to discuss inter-party relationships in this House.
  Hon. Members: Answer the question.
  The Prime Minister: When questions are relevant, I shall answer them.

  PRIME MINISTER (ENGAGEMENTS)
  Mr. Canavanasked the Prime Minister whether he will list his official engagements for 31st March.
  Mr. Skinnerasked the Prime Minister what are his official engagements for 31st March.
  The Prime Minister: This morning I took the chair at a meeting of the Cabinet. In addition to my duties in this House, I shall be holding further meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, including one with Mr. Cyrus Vance, the United States Secretary of State.
  Mr. Canavan: Will my right hon. Friend find time today to tell the 33,000 unemployed school leavers what measures he intends to take to help them find jobs? Will he utterly reject the rather bizarre suggestion of the Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland to recruit them into some form of uniformed national service, because it would be reminiscent of Germany in the 1930s if we had an army of unemployed youngsters marching through the streets led by the Globtik Gauleiter of Cathcart?
  The Prime Minister: In his Budget the Chancellor outlined that he was proposing to set aside £400 million over the next two years for the creation or maintenance of 150,000 to 200,000 jobs through such schemes as the temporary employment subsidy and job creation schemes of that sort, as well as assistance to small firms. The Government are awaiting a report from the Manpower Services Commission on youth employement which, I understand, we shall receive shortly. I am certain that when he speaks on employment this afternoon my right hon. Friend the
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  Secretary of State for Employment will have something further to say on this matter.
  With regard to service in the Army, I believe that the kind of schemes proposed by the Government are far superior to anything like recruiting people into the Armed Forces against their will or, indeed, anything which remotely resembles that.
  Mrs. Thatcher: Has the Prime Minister this morning, or at any other time today, taken time to consider the consequences for those who have either sold or bought petrol since Tuesday if the Budget resolution were not passed on Monday evening? This is an important constitutional question and I hope that the Prime Minister will make clear what consequences will flow from that decision.
  The Prime Minister: I shall certainly consider that matter, but we have put the resolution before the House and we expect it to be carried. There would be serious consequences if it were not.
  Mrs. Thatcher: But the Prime Minister, on his own admission, is the head of a minority Government. He must have taken time to consider this before the resolution came before the House. We are engaged in the Budget debate, and he is First Lord of the Treasury. If he knows the answer now, he should tell us—or is it that he does not know?
  The Prime Minister: The position will be the same as on any other vote. In other words, when the Government put down a motion they expect and hope that it will be carried.
  Mr. Molloy: Is my right hon. Friend aware that he has a far more important task in correcting the impression given overseas, notwithstanding that the right hon. Lady takes every opportunity to delight in any difficulty afflicting Britain or the British people? Will my right hon. Friend see to it that he carries on with his very good work of giving people overseas a true picture of Great Britain and not the false one perpetrated by the right hon. Lady?
  The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend will be comforted by the fact that the true position about Britain has got through to overseas, hence the great strength of sterling and the purchase of gilt-edged that has gone on as a result

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  of the Budget. I think that the position is well recognised. Of course, I understand that the right hon. Lady believes she would be able to conduct our affairs better—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—but I would be a little more convinced if I saw what the Opposition's policy was on about 17 different subjects.
  Mr. Marten: Following the previous question about the Lib-Lab alliance, will the Prime Minister, when he sees ministerial colleagues later in the day, discuss with them the proposition that the Leader of the Liberal Party should be invited as a fraternal delegate to the Labour Party Conference?
  Hon. Members: Answer.
  Mr. Norman Lamont: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I fully appreciate that the content of ministerial answers is not a matter for the Chair—[HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down."]—but we are in a situation where the Government are a minority Government and where they have made a deal, not a secret but a public arrangement, with the Liberal Party which states that Government policy must be modified. Therefore, surely the Prime Minister ought to answer questions about it.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. It is not for me to tell the Prime Minister what to answer.
  Mr. Thorpe: When the Prime Minister sees Mr. Cyrus Vance today, following the disappointing outcome to the strategic arms limitation talks in Moscow, will he assure the Secretary of State that this country would not wish the President in any way to water down, retract or retreat from his firm stand on human rights in order to get some agreement on defence and that, although we are naturally disappointed that the Moscow talks did not yield greater success, none the less we are 100 per cent. behind the President in his stand?
  The Prime Minister: I am looking forward to hearing from Mr. Vance a summary of his visit to Moscow, which, frankly, is of far greater importance than most of the Questions I have been asked this afternoon. The President is aware of our support for his general stand on human rights. He has also made it clear to me that he does not wish the Belgrade
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  conference to be polemical in nature when it meets. With regard to the temporary breakdown, if that is the correct word, of the talks on strategic arms limitation, my own deduction would be, subject to what Mr. Vance has to say, that this is costing the Soviet Union so much in resources that it will not rush into a large new arms programme out of pique or because it disagrees with the President on any other matter. I shall therefore encourage Mr. Vance to persist in his current discussions, which will be resumed in May with Mr. Gromyko.
  Mr. Corbett: Will my right hon. Friend put the proposition to Mr. Vance, which may make all the difference to the progress of the negotiations, that the Americans should include the Cruise missile in their proposals?
  The Prime Minister: That has been a source of dispute because the Americans have indicated to the Soviet Union that they believe that the Backfire bomber should also be included in any reduction in strategic arms. This bargain must be struck. I believe that President Ford was in favour of excluding both the Cruise missile and the Backfire bomber from any agreement, but that does not seem to have been possible. However, I do not think that it would be right to ask the Americans to exclude their Cruise missile unless the Soviet Union did something equal in return.
  Mr. Tebbit: Will the Prime Minister now make a better attempt to answer the question put to him by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition? Is it not right that the House should know, before it votes on the Budget resolution on petrol, what the effect of refusing to pass that resolution would be? Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware—[Interruption.] I wish that if the Liberals had nothing to say they would keep their mouths shut. Is not the Prime Minister aware that for two days people have been charging tax on petrol and that on Monday night the resolution may well not be passed? The Prime Minister must know the answer. Will he now give it?
  The Prime Minister: As soon as the Chancellor of the Exchequer has finished his Budget Statement and the Budget resolutions are put, as has been the case

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  in all the years the hon. Gentleman has been here, the change takes effect. It is always subject to ratification by the House at the end of the Budget debate. That is the normal process that will be followed on this occasion.
  Mr. Mates: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In replying to the point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Thames (Mr. Lamont), you rightly said that you had no responsibility for what the Prime Minister said in his answer. [An HON. MEMBER: "Sit down then."] But as you have also told us on many occasions, Mr. Speaker, that you are the custodian of the rights of Back Benchers, and have also said from the Chair that the point of Question Time is the asking for and giving of information, to whom can we turn when the Prime Minister flatly refuses to give information on a matter of public concern at the only time in the week when we can question him?
  Mr. Speaker: The House knows that Ministers are responsible for their replies or their non-replies.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mrs. Thatcher: May I ask the Lord President to state the business for next week?
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Michael Foot): The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY 4TH APRIL—Conclusion of the debate on the Budget Statement.
Motion on EEC Document R/642/76 on social legislation on road transport.
TUESDAY 5TH APRIL—Supply [11th Allotted Day]: there will be a debate on teacher training colleges in Scotland on a motion for the Adjournment of the House.
A debate on Mr. Agee and Mr. Hosenball, which will also arise on a motion for the Adjournment.
At 7 o'clock, the Chairman of Ways and Means has named opposed Private Business for consideration.
WEDNESDAY 6TH APRIL—Debate on a motion to take note of the White Paper
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on Sport and Recreation, Command No. 6200.
THURSDAY 7TH APRIL—It will be proposed that the House should meet at 11 a.m., take Questions till 12 noon and adjourn at 5 p.m. until Tuesday 19th April.
Mr. Christopher Price: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I do not want to interrupt Business Question Time now, but I want to raise a point of order about the propriety of putting down the debate on Mr. Agee and Mr. Hosenball when it is known that it is fully expected that on Monday leave will be sought to go to the House of Lords, and the matter will then become sub judice. If it is proper for me to raise this matter after Business Question Time, I shall do so, but I think that it involves Business Questions.
Mr. Speaker: I shall give the answer now. We shall look at that matter when notice has been given. It is not sub judice until notice has been given.
Mr. Christopher Price: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker—
Mr. Speaker: If any question of the matter being sub judice arises next week, I shall have to deal with it next week, but not today.
Mrs. Thatcher: Will the Leader of the House indicate in general terms when we are likely to have a debate on direct elections to the European Parliament? Will it be immediately we return after the recess?
Mr. Foot: Our expectation is that it will be in the week of our return.
Mr. Whitehead: I wish to revert to the proposed debate on Tuesday about Mr. Agee and Mr. Hosenball. Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of us are concerned that representations appear to have been made to their legal advisers to the effect that Parliament is anxious to have a debate on the matter? Parliament is anxious to see justice done. We can debate the question of the men's expulsion once the legal proceedings are over. Will my right hon. Friend take that very much into account?
Mr. Foot: I certainly have taken it into account. I wish to say in response to

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my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Price) that of course we have taken these questions into account, and if the matter is ruled to be sub judice we shall have to make different arrangements. But we have arranged the debate for next week in response to requests made by my hon. Friends.
Mr. Beith: On which day is it proposed to put the motion to adjourn the House?
Mr. Foot: It will be moved on Wednesday, at the beginning of Public Business.
Mr. Loyden: I ask my right hon. Friend to give serious consideration to a debate on unemployment. In view of the factory closures in the North-West—on Merseyside in particular—and in other regions, does not my right hon. Friend think that a debate on unemployment is essential? If we sat on Friday of next week that would extend the time of the House by at least one day for such a debate.
Mr. Foot: Discussion of these subjects and the whole matter of employment measures will be in order in today's debate. It will be opened by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment, who will be discussing these questions. As I have indicated to my hon. Friend and the House before, questions of major employment policy are of course proper subjects for debate durthe Budget debates. That does not exclude the possibility of later debates on special aspects of the extremely important matter my hon. Friend has raised.
Mr. Peter Walker: In view of the alaming facts disclosed by the Select Committee that has just looked into the problems of the West Indian community, will the right hon. Gentleman announce a very quick Government statement of policy or arrange a debate?
Mr. Foot: I shall consider the matter and see whether there should be a statement next week.
Mr. Heffer: When will my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment make his statement on assistance to the inner cities? On which day will it be?
Mr. Foot: I cannot tell my hon. Friend when that will be, but I shall try to give notice to him and others who have shown a special interest in the matter.
Mr. Clegg: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the time allowed this week for the debate on three EEC documents on fisheries was totally inadequate? In view of the great concern in the fishing industry, will he arrange for a debate giving more time to consider these urgent matters?
Mr. Foot: I am sorry that I cannot promise further time to debate these matters in the business announced for next week. I am also sorry that there was not more time available this week. But, as the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members will be aware, we still do not have sufficient time to discuss all these important matters of proposals from the European Community.
Mr. Greville Janner: In view of the visit of Mr. Vance, the approach of the Belgrade Conference, and the arrest in Moscow of Anatoli Sharanski and his imprisonment in Lefurtova Prison, has not the time come when we should have a debate on human rights, with specific reference to the way in which the Soviet Union is treating its minorities in general and its Jewish minority in particular?
Mr. Foot: I fully accept the importance of the subjects raised by my hon. and learned Friend, but many of these topics were referred to in general terms, and with some specific references, by my right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary when he spoke in the House a week or two ago.
Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Early-Day Motion No. 222 in my name has now attracted the support of more than 350 hon. Members in all parts of the House, that they constitute more than half the House, and that I am informed by the Table Office that this is a record for Early-Day Motions? In those circumstances, will the right hon. Gentleman now consider giving the House an opportunity before the Whitsun Recess to debate and vote upon this matter?
[That this House, dissatisfied with the infrequency and nature of debates on Foreign Affairs, urges the Government

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to set up a Standing Foreign Affairs Select Committee whose Reports should be debated in the House within 30 days of publication.]
Mr. Foot: Not merely am I aware of the considerable number of hon. Members who have signed the hon. Gentleman's motion, but I am equally aware that he has put the matter down for debate on Thursday of next week. I am sure that he would not wish me to anticipate that debate.
Mr. Newens: In view of the fact that my right hon. Friend has announced that other matters will be debated before the case of Mr. Agee and Mr. Hosenball on Tuesday, and in view of the fact that he stated that the debate should end at 7 p.m., will he indicate how much time will be available for dealing with this important matter? Many of us think that it will be totally unsatisfactory if adequate time is not made available so that all hon. Members who wish to contribute have an opportunity to say something. If there will not be adequate time on Tuesday, will my right hon. Friend consider having the debate on another occasion?
Mr. Foot: We have arranged this debate in response to requests from a number of my hon. Friends, and we propose that there should be two hours for the debate on Tuesday. I hope that it will be possible for my hon. Friends to put their points of view in that debate. When the matter was to have been debated on a previous occasion the amount of time allocated was slightly less than two hours. I hope that it will be a satisfactory debate.
Mr. Watt: Will the Leader of the House tell us when we shall next have an opportunity to debate devolution to Scotland? Will he give us an indication of his thinking in this matter and of the form in which the Bill will reappear?
Mr. Foot: We are still continuing with the talks that I promised after the defeat of the timetable motion. The hon. Member may rest assured that we shall proceed with the devolution measure. It is to this Government that hon. Members should look if they want to see the pledges on devolution carried into effect.
Mr. Gow: Is the Leader of the House aware that he is the Chairman of the Joint Consultative Committee announced by the Prime Minister on Wednesday of last week? All hon. Members would very much welcome—not least the Liberals—an early debate on the proceedings and powers of this Committee.
Mr. Foot: While I am always eager to accept invitations to address the House on all occasions, I do not know whether I can leap in to reply to that as I have nothing to add to the comprehensive reply given by the Prime Minister on Tuesday.
Mr. Ward: Can my right hon. Friend say whether we shall have a statement on the third generation of new towns—Peterborough, Milton Keynes and Northampton—before the House rises?
Mr. Foot: I shall look at this and be in touch with my hon. Friend. I visited Peterborough last week and the feelings of my hon. Friend's constituents were made very clear to me.
Mr. Jasper More: Does the Leader of the House recollect that a fortnight ago I was given a written undertaking that a statement would be made as soon as practicable about the interdepartmental committee on forestry? This morning there was a long Written Answer in reply to what was obviously a planted Question from a Labour Member. Is this an adequate implementation of the right hon. Gentleman's undertaking, and if he thinks that it is not, will he give an assurance that we shall have a statement next week?
Mr. Foot: I hoped that the reply would be helpful to the hon. Gentleman and all those who are interested in the subject. If he wishes to pursue the matter I shall see whether it can be raised again another time. There are quite a lot of opportunities available when this matter can be raised.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I intend to call only three more hon. Members from either side because there is another statement and there are two applications under Standing Order No. 9 to come.
Mr. English: When shall we have an opportunity to discuss the more ludicrous

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aspects of the Annan Report, such as the objections to duopoly in national radio and the desire for monopoly in local radio?
Mr. Foot: I hope that we shall have a fairly early opportunity to discuss all aspects of that report. It would be invidious for me to say at this stage which parts of the report I regard as either wise or unwise.
Mr. Thorpe: In replying to the hon. Member for Norfolk, North-West (Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler), the Leader of the House quite correctly said that the hon. Member had been successful in the Ballot, but the form his debate would take would not enable us to vote on that matter. The right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues should listen to the debate very carefully, and if there is a great deal of support in the House they should not rule out the possibility of giving Government time so that we can have a positive vote.
Mr. Foot: I am not ruling out the possibility, but the establishment of new Select Committees requires considerable debate in this House. The establishment of a foreign affairs Select Committee might result in many foreign affairs matters being transferred from the House on a very big scale, and this is a question which must be taken into account. I shall listen to the debate without prejudice and then I shall see whether a further debate is necessary at a later stage.
Mr. Spearing: The motion on tomorrow's Order Paper in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Handsworth (Mr. Lee) is a comprehensive motion to deal with EEC business off the Floor of the House. As it is wholly in line with the recommendations of the Procedure Committee 1974–75—a Committee that had a pro-Market majority—why has my right hon. Friend put down an amendment that falls far short of that Committee's recommendations?
Mr. Foot: That matter is for debate tomorrow as it has been for debate on previous occasions. Although this will be elaborated then, I believe that it is wrong that a Standing Committee of this kind should have the power to decide matters in the manner proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham,
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Handsworth (Mr. Lee). The responsibility of individual Committees to this House raises more important questions than either my hon. Friend or the Committee appreciated.
Mr. Marten: Did the Leader of the House observe Foreign Office Questions yesterday? When I raised the extraordinary proposition of British people having to have a Euro-passport, the Foreign Office refused to give any assurance that this would be debated before a decision was made. Ministers said that this was a matter for the Leader of the House. I am now giving the Leader of the House the opportunity to give us an assurance that we shall debate the question before any decision is taken outside this House.
Mr. Foot: I shall have to see what was said by the Foreign Office and by the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) before I pass any judgment. I always look with enthusiasm at what the hon. Member says on these matters.
Mr. Biffen: In respect of Monday's business, can the Leader of the House confirm that the Budget Resolutions are central to the Government's total economic strategy? Can he say whether the Government intend to regard the Budget Resolutions as a matter of confidence?
Mr. Foot: The Government regard the Budget Resolutions as being of the highest importance. That is why they are included in the Budget.
Mr. Christopher Price: Reverting to the debate about Mr. Agee and Mr. Hosenball, will my right hon. Friend agree that it would be most undesirable if Parliament even appeared to be putting pressure on the courts to dispose of the matter with undue haste? Will he assure me that the announcement of this debate is not intended to put pressure on either of the parties involved to go or not to go to the House of Lords?
Mr. Foot: My hon. Friend has given me the opportunity to assure him that of course the arrangements for the debate are not intended in any sense whatever to bring any pressure on those involved in the case. If we had not put the matter down for debate next week, I would have been criticised by some of my hon. Friends who had asked for a debate and

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to whom I had given a pledge. If the case is sub judice, the debate will have to be arranged for a later time. I promised that we would have a debate before Mr. Agee and Mr. Hosenball were required to leave the country, and that still stands.

AIRBORNE EARLY WARNING
The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Frederick Mulley): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish to make a statement about airborne early warning aircraft.
Following the NATO ministerial meeting on 25th March, the Government have given further consideration to their position on the provision of these aircraft to meet the requirements of the Alliance. As I made clear at the meeting, we have already agreed to two postponements of the NATO decision, which is urgently required if timely provision of airborne early warning cover for the NATO area is to be achieved.
As the House knows, we have maintained an alternative national development based on the Nimrod aircraft as a fall-back option in case of failure by NATO to agree on a system for the whole Alliance. This development has so far been funded at a low level, but if it is not to be delayed further, a substantial increase in the rate of expenditure on it is now necessary. In the light of the continued uncertainty about the procurement of the AWACS system by NATO, we have decided that we must now go ahead with the Nimrod system, which, subject to the successful conclusion of the necessary contract negotiations, will now proceed to full development.
In taking this decision, the Government have taken full account of the arguments put forward in NATO for further delay to enable outstanding questions on the procurement of the Boeing E3A AWACS aircraft to be further studied. Our decision to go ahead with Nimrod, however, will give the Alliance an urgently needed and modern airborne early warning capability to replace the Shackletons now operating in the United Kingdom air defence region and in the Eastern Atlantic and Channel areas. Our decision does not exclude the possibility of a collective NATO solution to the requirement.
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In developing the Nimrod system, we shall aim to secure the maximum inter-operability and compatibility between Nimrod and whatever additional airborne early warning aircraft the Alliance may eventually decide to procure. I suggested to my NATO colleagues that a single NATO airborne early warning force, though it would be an ideal solution, is not the only way in which the airborne early warning requirement could be met. We shall continue to work for arrangements which will secure maximum military effectiveness from the resources which the Alliance eventually decides to devote to the airborne early warning task.
Mr. Churchill: May I, on behalf of the Opposition, welcome most warmly the Secretary of State's statement backing the Nimrod, which is much more than a fall-back option, being a superb piece of British technology, and say how much it will be welcomed by the workers at Hawker Siddeley and Marconi-Elliot, as well as by many hundreds of sub-contractors whose jobs will be involved?
While we regret, as the right hon. Gentleman does, the absence of a NATO decision, as we regard an Alliance-wide airborne early warning force as a high priority, we believe that Britain has loyally supported the NATO solution long enough and that we have been patient for sufficient time. We therefore strongly support this decision by the Secretary of State, which will provide the much-needed replacement for the airborne early warning Shackletons, which are very aged, will save hundreds of high technology jobs in this country, and, even more important, will preserve our high technology team, which is unique in Europe.
Finally, I wish to put three questions to the Secretary of State. First, how many Nimrods are to be funded? Secondly, will this decision involve the construction of any new aircraft, or merely the modification of existing aircraft? Thirdly, can the right hon. Gentleman confirm that this force of British Nimrods will be fully inter-operable with any NATO airborne early warning concept which may come into being at a later date?
Mr. Mulley: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman for what he has said. All the considerations that he has mentioned

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were among those we took fully into account.
The hon. Gentleman asked me three questions. The first stage is to develop the system, on which a good deal of work still has to be done. We envisage a requirement of 11 aircraft. The decision does not require the building of new aircraft because we shall have the Nimrod Mark I available for adaptation. The work of adaptation will be considerable, and we envisage employing about 1,500 people for five years on the task.
In considering the performance of Nimrod, we are satisfied that it will discharge both our share of the NATO requirement and our own national early warning need. We shall do all we can to make it totally inter-operable and in every way able to contribute to the collective system of NATO and the common funded purposes of the Alliance.
Mr. Russell Kerr: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there will be widespread relief and gratitude at his decision, not least among aviation workers in the Hawker Siddeley organisation? Is he further aware that this feeling will be shared to the full by hon. Members on this side of the House, and not least by the dedicated crews flying the Nimrod squadrons in northern waters, with whom a number of us recently had the honour of flying?
Mr. Mulley: I am obliged to my hon. Friend. Apart from the physical provision of aircraft, we do not want the expertise of our aircrews in the airborne early warning rÔle—a unique British capability—to be lost. I join in paying tribute to those discharging that duty now.
Mr. Pattie: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this decision will be widely welcomed by all those who have campaigned for the British project, both in this House and among the trade unions at Woodford and Boreham Wood? Will he confirm that the Government will make the decision the start of a new policy of supporting British industrial capabilities in the awarding of defence contracts?
Mr. Mulley: I would not regard it as a new policy of supporting British defence industries. That is what we have been doing for a very long time. But, of course, I must make clear that one has to judge defence needs and defence expenditure
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and we must face the fact frankly that where we need only a small number of a particular weapon it will not always be economic and possible to satisfy that need from totally British sources. If we want to give reality to the two-way street concept of a European capacity interchangeable with that of the United States, we cannot expect on every occasion to have purely British weaponry.
Dr. M. S. Miller: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this wise decision will be welcomed by British technology in general, including Rolls-Royce as well as avionic manufacturers? Not only is it a wise decision but one that he will not regret, because the Nimrod can do everything that the American aircraft can do. Will he accept the thanks of the approximately 7,000 people whose jobs are safeguarded by the decision? It will also safeguard the long-term technology involved, which will stand the country in good stead for the future.
Mr. Mulley: I am obliged to my hon. Friend for doing me the service of pointing out that sometimes wise decisions are nevertheless the subject of later regret. I hope that that will not be so in this case. Indeed, one of the factors in making the decision is the confidence that has been shown in the aircraft both by the firms concerned and by their workers. I have placed much reliance on the claims they make for its performance and their ability to do it at the cost figures they have quoted.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: If the House will co-operate with me and right hon. and hon. Members ask brief questions, I will call all those who have already caught my eye without knowing it.
Mr. Thorpe: May I briefly join the unanimous acceptance and welcome which has so far marked the right hon. Gentleman's statement, and ask three questions? First, will he confirm that the cost to this country will be no greater than if we contributed to the Boeing project? Secondly, is it not the case that we are safeguarding 7,000 jobs as opposed to a total of 400 at the most if we had joined in the American sub-contracting work? Thirdly, is not the Nimrod project technically far more in keeping with our

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coastal requirements than the Boeing project, so that in effect we gain three times round?
Mr. Mulley: It is impossible to give precise cost figures because we have yet to enter into contractual negotiations with the firms. One of the difficulties of the AWACS project is that in NATO we are far from agreeing cost provisions over the whole range. However, I expect the Nimrod project to cost more than our share would have been had we been successful in getting the AWACS project. The Nimrod, being specifically designed for the purpose, will have the additional capacity over sea, which could be made available for AWACS, since it was not in its original design. One cannot be too precise about the number of jobs involved but I would not quarrel with the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion that there is an additional 5,000 to 6,000 jobs for the country in the Nimrod programme which we would not have expected directly from the AWACS programme.
Mr. Palmer: Will my right hon. Friend note the welcome that has been given—on both sides of the House, both above and below the Gangway—to the strengthening of our defences? Will he consider isuing a short White Paper showing how employment will be expanded in the defence industries in various parts of the country?
Mr. Mulley: We shall, as far as possible, make clear the employment implications. I am not sure that it justifies a White Paper. I am pleased to have taken a decision which seemingly has the unanimous approval of the House.
Sir. P Bryan: I appreciate that the Secretary of State may not be able to answer this question now, but will he in due course let the House know where this work will be directed to and, in particular, to what extent Hawker Siddeley factories on Humberside will benefit?
Mr. Mulley: It is a matter for the companies and perhaps the Aerospace Board to direct the work. Currently I should expect the airframe work to be done in Woodford and Chadderton in North-West Lancashire and the electronics avionics to be done in Boreham Wood.
Mr. Rose: I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the earliest possible warning
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that he has given of what is a correct decision on every possible criterion which will be widely welcomed, not least in the Manchester area. Is there a possibility of future sales to other NATO countries of the maritime reconnaissance Nimrod in addition to the very welcome announcement that he has made today about the airborne early warning system?
Mr. Mulley: I would hope that there were export possibilities, but it would be wrong to mislead the House by saying that I have an optimistic view. I think that it will be a limited possibility. However, I have made clear and will continue to make clear to our NATO Allies that, if part of other NATO tasks are required to be discharged by Nimrod aircraft, we would be happy to make additional Nimrods available under any common funding arrangement they may reach. I think that Nimrod could discharge rÔles outside our own particular area of responsibility.
Sir Frederic Bennett: I appreciate that the Secretary of State had no alternative other than to take the decision that he has in the interests of national security and I welcome the support that he has received from quarters not normally associated with supporting him on defence matters. Will he now confirm that the best thing we could do, in addition to making this aircraft available to ourselves, would be to spend more money on developing it in such a fashion that it would find customers among our NATO partners which so far it has been singularly unable to find?
Mr. Mulley: I do not think that we could justify further development for export potential, because the export potential is extremely limited and the aircraft and its associated electronics will be very expensive anyway. It was made clear to me last week that NATO had taken the view that, if there were to be a NATO plane, it would be the AWACS plane which has command and other capabilities which we shall not have in Nimrod. It is extremely unlikely that if we were to spend a lot of money on trying to upgrade the performance of Nimrod, it could be recouped.
Mr. Tebbit: Was the Secretary of State surprised by the enthusiasm of some of his hon. Friends for this massive expenditure

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on an advanced weapon of war which will be deployed against the Russians and their Marxist allies on our northern borders? Is the commitment to Nimrod irrevocable even in the event that the NATO Ministers at their next meeting decide in favour of the Boeing solution?
Mr. Mulley: I made it clear that we had to decide by today whether to proceed with the development of Nimrod which, as I have said, is costly. Clearly, the funds that we are now making available for this project mean that we shall not have funds to make a comparable contribution to another scheme. It is possible to have a mixed basis. It is on that footing that I shall approach the matter in future NATO meetings.
Mr. Tebbit: Is the commitment irrevocable?
Mr. Mulley: Nothing in life is irrevocable. We cannot prevent even the hon. Gentleman from injecting a note of disunity in an otherwise fairly unanimous House.
Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg: Before the House gets too overcome by euphoria, will the Secretary of State tell us what effect he thinks this project will have on the British Government's oft-repeated view that the future of NATO depends on standardisation? Secondly, how much help will it give to the salesmen of British weapons under the two-way street arrangement?
Mr. Mulley: As I have made clear, despite many pressures to the contrary the Government have sought over two years to go along with a collective scheme which would have meant the sacrifice of jobs and of our own national interests. As long ago as June last year the Alliance was put on notice of our particular problems. Our position is well understood. Clearly, in a purely defence context, it would be better to have one airborne early warning system operating than two. My particular concern throughout has been that the Shackleton will not be effective very much longer and that, unless NATO made up its mind, there would be no system. I think that we are adding to rather than reducing NATO's capability by the decision that we have taken today.
Miss Fookes: Will the Secretary of State reconsider the possibility of widening
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the brief to the aircraft companies as I understand that they can relatively easily make it possible for the aircraft to fly or to work equally well over land as over sea?
Mr. Mulley: Over many years I have learned to take with a pinch of salt, in the first look at the costs involved, some of the claims regarding what can be done. The hon. Lady may remember that in its first days I had some contact with the Concorde programme. For example, I was reprimanded for putting forward a figure which it was said was too high then but which, in the event, proved to be a fraction of its total cost. One must be careful about these matters. Clearly the message from NATO is that, whatever we do about Nimrod, it will not just drop AWACS and buy Nimrod. This is obviously an option about which we need to be rather cautious.
Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson: When does the Secretary of State expect the first of these aircraft to come into service? Where are the 11 Nimrods which are to be refurbished to be found? Does it mean having a new aircraft for the fisheries protection rôle?
Mr. Mulley: No, Sir. There is no question of replacing any of the Nimrods on the fishery protection rôle. We are in course of converting from Nimrod I to Nimrod II. Some aircraft—I think eight in Malta and two or three others—which will not be required for the new Mark II will be available for that purpose. Until we begin contractual discussions with the companies, we cannot give definite dates. In addition, there has been this delay while we have been waiting for a NATO decision. I shall give the dates as soon as possible. However, we must first discuss this matter with the companies. I thought it would be wrong to do that until I had informed the House of the decision.
Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I shall call the hon. and gallant Member for Winchester (Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles), but I want both him and the House to know that I am breaking an unwritten rule that I have made for myself that, once having declared that I shall call those who have already caught my eye, it is implied that I

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shall not call those who have not caught my eye.
Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am glad that your surveillance is so effective.
Will the Secretary of State, having taken this admirable decision implying the importance of effective surveillance for the prevention of war, follow that logic by reconsidering, without giving an answer today, the whole question of the deployment of these aircraft in the Mediterranean?
Mr. Mulley: The hon. and gallant Gentleman said that he did not want an answer today. That part of his question I can at least satisfy. I shall certainly consider what he said.

MENTMORE TOWERS
Mr. Cormack: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the future of Mentmore Towers and its outstanding collection."
It is not often that the House turns its attention to matters of importance to the Arts and the national heritage, but I suggest that this is an occasion when that rule can well be broken in the national interests.
Here we have one of the finest collections of works of art—indeed, an outstanding international collection—housed in one of the most remarkable creations of the nineteenth century, which its owner, Lord Rosebery, has offered to the nation. Unfortunately, however, up to now the Government have seen fit not to take advantage of this offer. The matter is urgent because Lord Rosebery's deadline, after which the arrangement for the sale will go ahead, is 5th April—Tuesday of next week.
During the last two or three days, various important developments have taken place. When the Government refused to accede to the requests by many of us that the resources of the Land Fund should be used for the acquisition of Mentmore Towers, a statement was made in the other place to the effect
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that if sufficient funds were made available from private sources the Government would willingly and happily reconsider their decision.
Nobody is questioning the good faith of the Government or their basic desire to acquire this national treasure. During the last few days offers have come forward of substantial sums from private sources, and the indications today—and I have made exhaustive inquiries about this—are that yet further sums could be on the way.
If that is the case, and I believe that it is—and I know that the right hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe), who has interested himself greatly in this issue, would be able to substantiate this—it is something that should be debated in the House before 5th April.
It is a specific matter, to judge from all that I have said. It is obviously urgent, because of the deadline, and I believe that because of its importance to the national heritage this is a matter of public importance. I therefore ask you, Mr. Speaker, to give consideration to this request.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member for Staffordshire, South-West (Mr. Cormack) asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he thinks should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the future of Mentmore Towers and its outstanding collection".
I have listened carefully to the hon. Member, and my judgment is never an assessment of the importance of the issue, which nobody would deny.
As the House knows, under Standing Order No. 9 I am directed to take into account the several factors set out in the Standing Order, but to give no reasons for my decision. In fact, all that I have to decide is whether this business should take precedence over Monday's business, which has already been set out.
I fear that I have to rule that the hon. Member's submission does not fall within the Standing Order and, therefore, I cannot submit his application to the House.

GOVERNMENT-LIBERAL PARTY (JOINT CONSULTATIONS)
Mr. Mates: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the persistent refusal of the Prime Minister to answer questions about the newly-created joint consultative committee with the Liberal Party which he announced in detail in his speech to the House on 23rd March".
I believe that this matter has been exacerbated by the fact that the Leader of the House treated the question by my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow) at Business Time today as if this topic were something of a joke.
That it is specific cannot, I think, be denied, because whether there is a pact, an arrangement, a deal, an understanding or a shot-gun marriage, there is a joint consultative committee. It consists of hon. Members of this House who have not been detailed to us. Its Chairman is the Leader of the House, and it is discussing House of Commons business and House of Commons policy. Therefore, it is unarguable that the matter is specific.
The matter is urgent because, as has been made clear in the first part of the discussions on the Budget, there is likely to be a difference of opinion, which presumably will be discussed within this committee, and the House has a right to know at least the basis upon which the discussions will take place.
My submission is that this matter should take precedence over Monday's business because of the crucial importance of the vote to be taken on Monday night, when some part of the consideration of how various Members cast their votes will inevitably depend upon the decisions reached by this joint consultative committee of which the House has been given no more than the barest details.
I do not wish to detain the House. I have not brought this matter to you lightly, Mr. Speaker. Indeed, this is the
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first time that I have ever raised a matter under the Standing Order. I feel strongly about this issue but, being something of a realist, I imagine that the balance of probability is that you will not be able to grant this request on this occasion. If that is so, may I ask one thing? It may not be within your power to rule, to guide or to direct any Minister, from the Prime Minister downwards, as to how he answers questions, but, bearing in mind your known responsibility to Back Bench Members, I, for one, would very much value your opinion as to how you see the rights of Back Benchers being maintained in the face of a flat refusal by the Prime Minister to answer questions on a matter of national importance.
Mr. Speaker: I hope that the House will allow me to congratulate the hon. Member for Petersfield (Mr. Mates) on his maiden application under Standing Order No. 9. I fear what it will be like when the hon. Member has been in the House even longer and makes further applications.
The hon. Member asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he thinks should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the persistent refusal of the Prime Minister to answer questions about the newly created joint consultative committee".
As I said about the earlier application, it is not for me to measure the importance of the issue. All matters brought to me under Standing Order No. 9 are undoubtedly important. I have to decide whether the matter must be given precedence over business set down for Monday.
I have listened carefully to the hon. Member and I have given careful consideration to what he has said. Unfortunately, I have to rule that his submission does not fall within the provisions of the Standing Order and, therefore, I cannot submit his application to the House.
As for the hon. Member's request for information, I can say nothing in public about the matters he raised.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  WAYS AND MEANS
  Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [29th March].
  AMENDMENT OF THE LAW
  That it is expedient to amend the law with respect to the National Debt and the public revenue and to make further provision in connection with finance; but

  (a) this Resolution does not extend to the making of amendments with respect to the surcharge imposed by the National Insurance Surcharge Act 1976 other than amendments for affording relief to charities; and

  (b) without prejudice to any authorisation by virtue of any Resolution relating to value added tax, this Resolution does not extend to the making of amendments with respect to that tax so as to provide—

  (i) for zero-rating or exempting any supply;

  (ii) for refunding any amount of tax;

  (iii) for reducing the rate at which tax is for the time being chargeable on any supply or importation otherwise than by reducing that rate in relation to all supplies and importations on which tax is for the time being chargeable at that rate; or

  (iv) for any relief other than relief applicable to goods of whatever description or services of whatever description.—[Mr. Healey.]

  [Relevant Commission Documents: Nos. R/566/77, R/567/77, R/2361/76 and R/2520/76.]
  Question again proposed.

BUDGET RESOLUTIONS AND ECONOMIC SITUATION
4.17 p.m.
The Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Albert Booth): I, like you, Mr. Speaker, shall today be breaking one of my own unwritten rules. It has been my practice for more than 10 years to attend the whole of any debate in which I participate, and often many more debates. Today, however, I shall have to leave the House before the end of the debate, and I ask hon. Members to acquit me of any discourtesy. I promise that I shall not break the rule very frequently, if ever again.
The aim of the Government's economic strategy is to accomplish the transition from slump to sustained expansion in a
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way that will protect and benefit those sections of the community that are most at risk. The risk that I have in mind is not only that of a fall in living standards that is inevitable in a recession. It is not only the risk of frustration and the loss of morale that inevitably attends in a situation where people are seeking unsuccessfully for work or for work suitable to their talents; it is also the risk that there will be a loss of faith in the ability of democratic institutions to control and shape the economy of the country. We have been at this point previously in our history—in 1911 and in the 1930s—and I think that it would be unwise, with more than 1·3 million unemployed, not to recognise that we run that risk again today.
The fact that up to now such a remarkable degree of tolerance has been shown by the British people at this appallingly high figure is no indication that there is not growing concern. Rather, it is an indication that there is some degree of understanding of the nature of the problem and of the policies that are being applied, and have to be applied, to deal with it.
It would be a grave error to believe that this acceptance will go on for very long. I do not believe that it will. That is one of the reasons why it is a keystone of the Government's policy to achieve a return to full employment. In saying that, I am not just paying lip service to an outmoded symbol; I am recognising that the Labour Party was given political significance and power by the trade union movement, which cradled that objective. To that extent, it could be said that the greatest difference that exists between Labour Members and the Opposition is the way in which that political power was brought about. That is why we were so reluctant when we came to power, to respond to the clamour from the Opposition Benches to slash public expenditure in a way that would have increased unemployment and made the present unemployment figures look quite modest.
A return to full employment requires the pursuit of long-term and short-term policies. We must pursue the policies that are now reducing the levels of unemployment and, simultaneously, will reduce unemployment one or two years ahead.

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The most formidable obstacle in the way of reducing unemployment is our unsatisfactory balance of payments. Our share of world trade has fallen over the years. We must take steps to stop it falling further and to increase it. That is the purpose of the industrial strategy. If we can make it successful, it will, together with the income from North Sea oil, transform our balance of payments position by the 1980s.
To do that, it was necessary to achieve greater agreement than had existed previously between Government, industry and the unions. That was why, in the first instance, was discussed in the National Economic Development Council, with representatives of the CBI and the TUC, the basis of an agreement on that industrial strategy to find how much common ground existed between them. To bring about a plan to overcome our balance of payments deficit—
Mr. David Mitchell: Does the Secretary of State agree that the bodies that he has just described represent neither the self-employed nor the small business man? Does he agree that they have an enormous contribution to make to employment?
Mr. Booth: I shall come later to the contribution that can be made by small businesses. I have never denied the importance of their contribution.
The objectives concern not only hon. Members but managers of industry and trade unions. It was right that we should seek to proceed on a basis that had their consent and that reflected their judgment on what was necessary to achieve a successful strategy. That is why, arising from that agreement, it was possible for working parties to be set up in 40 manufacturing industries in which managers, lay representatives and trade union officials could analyse their own industries, about which they have an infinitely better knowledge than any Government Minister could have. That is why they were able to assess the share of the market that they could pursue and the investment and manpower implications. That is why they were also able to assess their skill requirements, and why we have today a better understanding of how the Department can help. We now have training for skills through the industrial training
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councils and our own training opportunities scheme.
Neither the House nor the public generally has so far understood how far the plan has proceeded. Just as we need that plan to deal with the problems of adequate labour in the manufacturing industries and to have an intelligent assessment of how that need is changing, we must also plan ahead for our investment needs. There has been no understanding of the degree of success that has attended the plan.
The accelerated projects scheme and the selective investment scheme operated by the Secretary of State for Industry have brought forward a considerable amount of investment for industry. The accelerated projects scheme alone has identified 118 projects, involving a cost of £640 million, which industry was persuaded to bring forward during a most difficult period with the assistance of about £84 million of public money. That is investment success.
The assisted projects are spread over a wide range of our manufacturing industries. There are 31 projects in mechanical engineering, 23 in chemicals, 13 in the food and drinks industry, 12 in electrical engineering, and nine in vehicles and components. With the development of those projects, there is a growth in many industries, which is being reflected in their employment figures. In January this year 7,000 more people were employed in the chemical industry than in January last year. About 16,000 more were employed in the vehicle industries, 6,000 more in metal goods and 9,000 more in textiles.
For the first time, we are seeing a growth taking place that is showing in employment figures. Before employment figures were affected, short-time working was affected. When that fell, it was followed by a huge increase in overtime. At one stage we estimated that 15 million man-hours a week were being worked in the manufacturing sector alone. The growth is now feeding through to employment. The projects in themselves are giving us an indication of the future nature of employment. It is estimated by the Department of Industry that the accelerated projects scheme alone will produce 70,000 man-years of work arising from orders placed with the construction and plant equipment industries. There

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will be only 13,000 permanent jobs for that industry. That is how capital intensive modern industry will become, given the right sort of investment. It is also estimated that the projects will improve import savings and direct exports, by about £500 million a year by 1980. That is the time scale involved in bringing about an improved performance in current terms.
No one who is prepared to analyse the employment potential will claim that we shall be able to solve the problem solely on the basis of our current level of and performance in world trade. We must address ourselves to the international implications of the problem and play our part in international trade. A fundamental cure must be sought at an international level.
That was strongly urged by the Prime Minister at the European Council meeting that has just taken place. As a result of that, the Council issued a statement stressing the need for intensified co-operation at Community level and more widely to deal with the problems of the recession. The European Council agreed to promote measures to tackle specific labour market problems and to encourage higher levels of investment. The Commission and the European Investment Bank have been invited to carry forward those proposals, and the Council will look for results by the end of the year.
During our year of Presidency we shall be holding a tripartite conference, under Community auspices, before the end of June. That is a bold programme, and we shall be devoting all our energies towards making it successful.
The Prime Minister and I will be going to Norway on Saturday and Sunday to attend a Social Democratic Party conference at Oslo on the employment situation. At Easter, I shall meet the Employment Ministers of Sweden and Denmark to discuss the effectiveness of specific measures to deal with the problem of employment.
The task of assessing a satisfactory range of measures to solve the unemployment problem is made no easier when one is aiming at a moving target. The employment situation never stands still. During the next five years we expect the
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work force to increase at the rate of at least 140,000 a year, partly as a result of the higher birth rate of the early 1960s and partly as a result of the far larger number of women now seeking jobs. The fact that the national insurance change encouraged more women to register must also have a bearing on the number of registered unemployed.
In the two years from September 1974 to September 1976 employment in this country fell by 400,000 and the number of registered unemployed went up by 800,000. That is an indication of the extent to which we have to increase jobs in this country if we are to reduce unemployment. It is a moving target because of changes in technology. Some industries are bound to decline while others expand. The threat to employment in the shipbuilding industry because of the change in demand for world shipping is one example.
These changes all come about because industry is becoming much more capital-intensive. ICI can refer us to a £25 million plant that will employ only 90 people, as opposed to similar investment, in the past that would have employed 10 times as many. Many factors that affect employment are changing. We have to make an accurate assessment of the direction of that change if we are successfully to apply measures to reduce unemployment.
In the short term, we are introducing a number of additional measures to what is already a considerable range of special schemes. We are extending for a further year the temporary employment subsidy. Unquestionably, in numerical terms this has been the most successful scheme yet introduced, covering more than 200,000 people who had received redundancy notices and whose notices have been withdrawn under the working of the scheme. The Press happened to realise this in the course of the past few weeks. The Times, not a particular friend of the Government, says today:
"There is no doubt that TES has been a great success."
The Guardia's labour editor, Mr. Keith Harper, reports:
"By using TES, several companies say they have prevented ill-feeling among their workforce and have been relieved of the time-consuming task of recruiting new labour when better times returned."

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Many firms, facing 12 months of the depths of the depression, have been able, with the aid of TES, to reorganise in that 12 months to sustain their labour force in the market situation that has followed. But for some firms the effect of the recession goes beyond 12 months. Although they gave us undertakings in good faith to seek to maintain their work force beyond 12 months, some are still facing the possibility of redundancies when the 12 months end.
For these firms we are introducing a scheme to enable them to make a further application, which will be re-examined against their present labour requirements and their capacity to maintain the labour force with some additional assistance. The scheme will pay, on successive applications, a subsidy of £10 a week per redundancy notice withdrawn, for six months. The gross cost of the change will be £214 million.
In public expenditure terms there could be a very considerable saving. It is estimated that at present the cost to the Exchequer of having a man leave employment and go on to unemployment benefit is about £50 a week. This is not only the cost of this benefit or the supplementary benefits that may be added but also the cost of the loss of National insurance contributions and the tax that he would otherwise be paying.
Therefore, if we can keep someone in a job by extending to £20 the temporary employment subsidy it obviously makes sense to retain useful workers. It makes sense in public expenditure terms as well. Many other measures were introduced in the Budget announcement.
Sir Keith Joseph: The Minister mentioned the gross cost. What is the net cost, bearing in mind the saving on benefits to which he referred?
Mr. Booth: I cannot give the precise net cost. We estimate on the basis of £50 a person, but the actual amount changes over a long period. It starts with wage-related benefits being a component for six months. Then there is six months of supplementary benefit. Then adjustments are made to supplementary benefit.
I cannot claim that, because this is a £20 a week subsidy and the cost of someone becoming unemployed is £50 a week, this is a saving of £30 a week to public
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expenditure. There is some displacement effect to operating any scheme but I take the view that with TES there is some net public expenditure saving, although there is obviously some net cost on the scheme that we are operating.
Mr. J. Enoch Powell: If the total cost is estimated at £214 million, while the cost of individual cases will vary, there must be a corresponding estimated figure of the net cost after allowances have been made.
Mr. Booth: We estimate the gross and net costs. The £214 million figure that I gave was the gross cost of all the schemes. The net cost varies from scheme to scheme. In the case of TES we estimate that there is no net cost and there may be some saving, taking into account the £20 scheme and the £10 a week continuation scheme. On others there is a net cost to the public Exchequer. I could examine those schemes one at a time against various criteria, but since the Chancellor of the Exchequer is sitting rather close to me I should be rather careful before committing us to a precise cost for the scheme.
Other new schemes are being introduced, as announced in the Budget. I draw the attention of the House to a scheme that is designed especially to experiment in a completely new area—that of paying to a firm a labour subsidy on condition that it will increase its net labour force. The small firm scheme will pay firms with a labour force of 50 or less a subsidy in respect of each additional worker that they take on. This will be run as an experiment for six months in the first instance, and it will be run in special development areas. We estimate that the funding of £3 million that we are making available could provide jobs for an additional 5,500 people.
It is not the size of the scheme that is significant; what is significant is that it will be the first experiment in the United Kingdom in applying this form of subsidy. We shall attempt to measure it in comparison with what happens to small firms outside special development areas to see what we can learn.
During regional debates on unemployment I have been impressed time after time by hon. Members on both sides who have called for the introduction of special

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schemes to aid small firms. I am not saying that this is a complete response, but it is a form of response from the Department of Employment that will be examined with great care. I hope that it will be highly successful. We shall learn from it whether we can do things in this country which have been attempted in other countries in the labour subsidy area.
Another measure is the new scheme for aiding disabled people—the vocational induction scheme. At present 14½ per cent. of registered disabled people in this country are out of work, in spite of the fact that the Employment Services Agency employs 500 disablement resettlement officers working entirely to replace disabled people. We are currently replacing only 1,000 disabled people in jobs each week.
That is not good enough. We want to improve on that performance. We set aside sums that will be sufficient to provide £30 a week for the first six weeks to the employer of any disabled person who is recommended as suitable by a disablement resettlement officer. I think that the skill and knowledge of good disablement resettlement officers, and the will of a number of disabled people in this country, demonstrate to employers that these people are quite capable of earning a living in unsheltered employment, and that this can enable the scheme to be highly successful.
Mr. Robert Boscawen: Will the Secretary of State consider the possibility of giving assistance to disabled people to find work outside their own employment districts? Can he do something to help those who cannot get assistance to move to a new area?
Mr. Booth: I am never happier than when we can apply the employment transfer scheme to the assistance of disabled people. When a person cannot obtain employment in his own area and is prepared to move to another area to fill a vacancy that is registered we shall readily assist him under that scheme. That is not to say that we cannot work these schemes in conjuction with one another. There might be a place for both of them. Again, this is in an experimental phase.
I have also invited the Manpower Services Commission carefully to consider
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whether we can devise a scheme for assisting the longer-term able unemployed. The first shot was to be at defining longer-term unemployment with the idea that we should examine only those who have been out of work for more than 12 months, but even on that basis I found that one in five of the registered unemployed in January 1977 had been unemployed for more than 12 months, so there is a growing problem of the longer-term unemployed to which we must direct considerable attention.
The Budget has also provided £100 million for new construction projects, and this injection of funds will enable the Government to launch sooner than would otherwise have been possible a long-term attack on inner city problems. It will make a welcome contribution towards providing employment in an industry which has suffered so severely from the current recession.
Mr. Peter Walker: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that £50 million a year in each of the next two years is a minute amount compared, for example, with the fact that the house improvement scheme in regions of high unemployment is now running at one-third what it was in 1973?
Mr. Booth: In itself the amount is minute, but taken in conjunction with the wide range of other measures concerning urban aid and local authority projects it will be welcome in so far as it will produce additional work for the construction industry. However, when we are introducing these new schemes, particularly schemes such as that giving aid to the smaller firms and the induction scheme, we are virtually exploring virgin territory.
Mr. David Mitchell: Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that the Chancellor said that in the expenditure of this money there will be close consultation with the local authorities? Will he give an assurance that the expenditure will not be through the direct labour organisations of local authorities, but will be through the private building and construction sector?
Mr. Booth: I certainly cannot give such an assurance. The Chancellor's undertaking was quite clear. It was that consultation will take place with local

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authorities. No doubt the local authorities will give their advice on how the money would be best spent to attain their objectives, and they will no doubt take into account the employment situation in the construction industry in their areas.
Let me now turn to the problem of introducing employment measures. As I have said, we are exploring virgin territory. Perhaps I could describe it as conducting human laboratory experiments in finding which ideas will work and which will provide a solution for specific employment problems. No country has been successful in finding one measure which in itself will end the scourge of unemployment.
Conscious as I am, and as are all the Ministers in my Department, of our responsibility for the success or failure of our actions, I believe that there are very few assertions that one can make with any confidence. The only thing that I would say without fear of contradiction is that not since Ernie Bevin was in my place in a war-time Ministry of Labour has there been so much effort, ingenuity,
It is fair to say that we are waging another war—a war against unemployment—and it would be wrong for me to sit down without paying tribute to all those who have co-operated in what has been achieved so far in reducing the unemployment figure by 250,000 by these measures. That reduction has been achieved through co-operation from trade unions and employers—particularly those employers who have been prepared to introduce work experience schemes—from the Manpower Services Commission and its agencies and from officials in my Department.
One of the drawbacks of experimenting in so many areas is that there is a danger of people becoming confused. We face the criticism that we are running too many different schemes. I can say only that it is our experience that it is necessary to run a whole number of measures, because in that way we achieve the cumulative effect that I have described.
At present we are spending about £400 million gross a year on these measures. We believe that these measures will keep expenditure—I have now checked the figure—is above a quarter of that sum. We believe that these measures will keep the unemployment figure down, at the
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level we are now projecting, by at least 200,000 below what it otherwise would be.
During the last few months the impact of the measures has been increasing. They will reach a peak at about Easter, although during the last two months the crude unemployment figure has dropped by 60,000. I accept the criticism about the difficulty and complexity of continuing all the measures, particularly those to assist young people. That is why we are arranging the common terminal date of 31st August for the funding of these schemes. By that time we shall have the report of the Manpower Services Commission on its examination of the feasibility of ensuring that all young people aged 16, 17 and 18 either have work or are in training or education.
The prospect for young people is one that has to be based upon a knowledge of the effectiveness of the school leaving measures and of the growth in unemployment amongst young people above that age—those who have not stayed in their first jobs and have added to the numbers of youth unemployed. It has to be based, too, upon the knowledge that the situation would be little better than it was in 1976 without these measures. In 1976 there were 67,000 school leavers at Easter and 550,000 school leavers in the summer. This year we are expecting 70,000 to leave at Easter and 590,000 in the summer in England, Wales and Scotland.
I have tried to set before the House some of the problems of aiming at what I described as a moving target. But none of the four Ministers in the Department underestimates the size of the problem. There is certainly no complacency in St. James's Square. We are addressing ourselves to a problem that is not confined to our shores. There are 5·8 million people unemployed in the Common Market. Within the constraints of our own economy, we in the Government are working to our utmost while we tackle the possibilities of international action.
We have developed industrial and employment measures of a wider scope and on a greater scale than has ever existed before. I suppose that the only thing we can guarantee is the determination, the will and the strength of purpose to make these measures effective or

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find others that will become more effective.
We want to work in collaboration with work people and employers in pursuing policies which will lead us back as quickly as possible to full employment. The goal is one which will demand considerable effort and ingenuity to achieve. I am confident that we can now count on the collaboration of both sides of industry, and I hope, too, that we can rely on the help of both sides of the House.
4.51 p.m.
Sir Keith Joseph: the Secretary of State for Employment is widely known as a kindly, intensely well-intentioned and nice man, but if his speech indicates the level of understanding in the Government of the employment problems of this country, it is clear that the Labour Party offers absolutely no prospect of reaching high, let alone full, employment at any time.
The right hon. Gentleman has explained the size and difficulty of the job as he sees it. I shall argue that he has not even described the scale of the task that this or any British Government face in securing a combination of prosperity and high employment. It seems to the Opposition that the right hon. Gentleman and the Government, applying a series of rather apologetic patches and cosmetics to the situation, have no vision of how to secure either prosperity or higher employment. Their understanding of the economy seems to be static. They do not seem to realise that this country is packed full with people passionately eager, in their own and their families' interests, to improve their condition.
If the Government create the right framework, a framework that combines constraint at the national economic level and competition, so as to harness the interests of the business man to the interests of the consumer, with incentives, all sorts of developments will happen spontaneously without our waiting for the right hon. Gentleman and his well-intentioned colleagues and staff to produce new employment protection schemes.
Dr. Oonagh McDonald: The right hon. Gentleman is quoted as saying that he wanted to see more mil-
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lionaires and more bankruptcies. Will he kindly explain how that fits in with the Tory Party's policies to reduce the level of unemployment?
Sir. K Joseph: What I shall try to say today enlarges on that very theme. To take up the Chancellor of the Exchequer's comments in his Budget speech, our only chance for prosperity and higher employment is for us to be competitive. The way we become competitive is to encourage success and not to reinforce failure—which I was trying to put in a rather vivid way in that quotation from 10 or 15 years ago which the hon. Lady has dug out. I am not ashamed of it. It puts the truth relatively vividly.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer has been kind enough to send me a note to say that he has to go to a commitment in a few minutes. I should like to say before he goes that there were some good things for the country in his Budget. I thought that the fact that the right hon. Gentleman has not reflated is good for the country. I thought that the fact, to which my right hon. and learned Friend the Shadow Chancellor pointed in his excellent speech yesterday, that the Chancellor has started to trim personal tax levels is also good for the country, even if it goes only a small part of the way to undo the damage he has done in his nine previous Budgets.
In our view, the Government still have their spending, borrowing and taxation far too high. That is bad for the country. It is also bad for the country that the Chancellor has not set for the next year after this a further downward monetary guideline. He is apparently contemplating an increase in the rate of growth of money supply in the year after the immediate next financial year—a trend which he has been ready enough to attack when practised by my right hon. Friends in the previous Conservative Government. That is thoroughly bad for the country.
We find something to welcome in the Chancellor's Budget, but much not to welcome. It cannot be expected, however, that the long economic decline of this country, recently intensely accelerated, can be put right by one Budget. The Chancellor has had 10 goes, and we are not even back to where we started.
Yesterday, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir

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G. Howe) spelt out some of the sober, depressing statistics which show that the Chancellor and his right hon. Friends have done much more harm than good in their three years of office. Despite the experiences which they have had, and still have to undergo, there are many first-class businesses of all sizes, from the giant down to the small business and the one-man business. But the country is trapped in a cat's cradle of disincentives and over-government. This cat's cradle cannot be dispersed overnight. When we have responsibility for these matters, our job will be to remove the obstacles to enterprise and effort.
It is not that there has been any shortage of good intentions. This Government have had—we would quarrel with them—apparently Utopian intentions. The country is now living with the unintended bad consequences of all those good intentions. The Secretary of State for Employment never seemed to acknowledge in his speech that some of the unemployment he is deploring today is the result of legislation introduced by his Government. Other parts of the unemployment result from trade union attitudes and trade union wage claims which have priced wage earners and managers out of jobs and helped to destroy firms.
I can remember a number of such examples. I think, for instance, of the experience at Skelmersdale where unemployment seemed to be wantonly increased because, despite the continued efforts of management, the wage earners appeared—it is always difficult to be sure that one has the whole truth—to prefer to take redundancy payments rather than provide sufficient productivity to enable the firm to make a profit. There must be many other examples of cases where unemployment is due to the counterproductive behaviour of trade unions and the counter-productive legislation of this Government.
But, above all, what has contributed to the unemployment and to the difficulty of reviving confidence has been decades of Socialist criticism of business, of profits, of management and of ownership, decades of propaganda—indeed generations of propaganda—based on fallacies, and based overwhelmingly on the fallacy that the interests of the wage earner, the manager and the owner are in conflict one with the other.
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I suspect that some Ministers are beginning to realise that some of those so-called truths which they and their party have peddled for so long do not correspond with reality. Largely because of Socialist propaganda, the country is now enveloped in an anti-enterprise climate, an anti-enterprise culture. The basic fact about our economy is not de-industrialisation; it is de-enterprisation. Until enterprise is encouraged again, the right hon. Gentleman will never see a rise in sustainable jobs, because it is enterprise that creates and maintains jobs. Against this background, it is veritably marvellous that so much enterprise still exists in firms of all sizes in this country.
Mr. John Mendelson: I should be happier if Socialist propaganda were as powerful as the right hon. Gentleman pretends. How does he square the conclusion with which he has suddenly startled the House with the position in the United States, where a tax on enterprise and entrepreneurs has never taken place and where everyone has praised the entrepreneur, yet the percentage of unemployment there is higher than ours? it is more than 8 million. Is it not silly and childish to suggest that entrepreneurs base their decisions on what other people say about them and not on hard market conditions and realities?
Sir. K Joseph: Socialism has been powerful in a negative way. It has destroyed. It cannot construct. The Americans regard themselves as hurtling down the British path, 15 to 20 years behind us. Of course business men respond to hard realities as well as to the climate, but the Socialists' attitudes have led to crippling legislation such as profit control and dividend control and to the tide of egalitarianism that helps to make up the climate, culture and economy in which business men are trying to fight with their competitors all over the world.
We can welcome some things in this Budget. We do not under-estimate the sheer difficulty of any Chancellor in trying to formulate a sensible Budget with the limited knowledge that a Government have. We notice, for instance, that the Budget speech made no reference this year to savings. There were two aspects of that omission. It is normal courtesy for the Chancellor to pay tribute to the work of those concerned with savings, and there is also generally some reference

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to the likely trend in savings. All the pundits were surprised and caught out by the rapid rise in savings a couple of years ago and their precipitate decline during the last quarter of last year. The Chancellor's strategy could be completely wrecked—he cannot be blamed for this—by an unpredictable surge or fall in savings, so perhaps he was wise not to make any prediction.
There are other equally important factors that the Chancellor cannot predict. What is the trend in productivity, the position on labour-hoarding and the real availability of skills? What vacancies exist? I should like to commend the improvements to the monthly Press notice issued by the Department of Employment which is concerned with unemployment and vacancies. But it is a weakness for the country's economic management that vacancies are still reported on the basis of only those that are actually registered with employment exchanges. As the Chancellor and the House know, there is a footnote on the front page of the report that explains briefly that these are only part of the total vacancies because only a relatively small fraction of vacancies are reported to the employment exchanges.
Would it not be far more enlightening to the country and helpful for the management of the economy if the Department of Employment managed, by sample surveys, to put on that front page, with equal prominence as the registered unemployed, the actual vacancies that it believes exist rather than a small proportion of the vacancies—namely, those that are registered? The result—partly necessarily and partly through the gratuitous ignorance of the Chancellor of the Exchequer—is that the Budget can be blown far off course by trends that cannot now be predicted—quite apart from the larger trends that come from mismanagement of the economy and the exchange rate and from world events. Peter Jay put it well in The Times earlier this week when he referred to the Chancellor as being:
"little more than a cork on the waves of industrial productivity and the industrial costs that they make."
The Government are presiding—with a surprising element of complacency, judging from the Chancellor's attitude—over a
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stagnant economy with absolutely minuscule growth prospects that mean little or no improvement for anybody or anything. The Secretary of State for Employment has shown that the Government have no vision to offer the country about how to escape from stagnation and the present level of unemployment. The Government have no vision and no understanding. No one charges them with lacking in good will and good intentions. Hard work and effort—yes, but there is not an ounce of evidence that the Government have the necessary understanding and vision.
The Chancellor identified what is necessary in his Budget Statement. He referred to productivity. Two whole paragraphs in columns 264 and 265 of Hansard refer to price competitiveness and non-price competitiveness. The Chancellor knows in general that this is necessary to improve our prosperity, balance of payments and job opportunities. He was right to emphasise productivity—greater output of goods and services at the same prices. Yet the Secretary of State for Employment in his speech today did not begin to understand the scale of the potential spare labour that is there to be absorbed into sustainable production of goods and services for consumers at home and abroad. The Secretary of State for Employment did not refer today to the effect of low productivity on labour, about which the Chancellor spoke yesterday.
There is a large amount of overmanning. Nobody knows how much it is but there are sectors, mainly in the public service and nationalised industries but also in private industry and commerce, that are overmanned. The largest examples of overmanning tend to be in the nationalised industries and public services, but the private sector also contains some elements of gross overmanning.
Overmanning is an option that is open to people in a free society. If people choose to overman and to accept the consequences, that is their choice. I am glad to have the approval, since he is a purist, of my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen). He has taught me that overmanning is not an offence but a cost that has implications for the standard of living, earnings, social services and defences of a country.

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Most people in this country have hopes and aspirations—for earnings, pensions, social services, defence, transport and all sorts of other ingredients of national life—for themselves and for the nation. They cannot be achieved while overmanning continues on its present scale. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West will not quarrel with that. Overmanning undermines the hopes and aspirations of the people.
It always seems strange to me that trade union leaders who generally, though not always, protect overmanning are so clamorous for new investment when we all know that more investment is justified only when the overmanning comes down sharply so that the cost of equipment may be justified within the price that the consumer will pay and the investment will yield profit to the business.
New investment is not the prime need of this country, but the better use of existing investment is. We could achieve a great leap forward in productivity, competitiveness, earning power and market penetration at home and abroad if existing investment were better used. There will not be a surge in investment and productivity unless there are better profits, better prospects for profits and better incentives at all levels of income. The Government do not seem to recognise these truths.
The scale of the need for new jobs is far larger even than the Secretary of State recognised in his gloomy speech. There is a need for new jobs to absorb those who are seeking work now, and there will be a need in the years ahead if and when productivity rises to absorb those who overman.
The right hon. Gentleman never even approached an analysis of how new jobs come into existence. The Government cannot create them because they have no money. The Secretary of State talked about protecting and creating jobs, but he had to acknowledge that the money used by the Government has to come from somewhere else. In reply to an intervention, he spoke of the displacement effect. He claims that there is no net cost involved in the temporary employment subsidy, but with all the other subsidies the net cost comes out of taxes, which would otherwise be lower, or borrowing, which would otherwise be
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less. Higher than otherwise borrowing and taxation removes, by way of higher interest rates or taxes, money from consumers that would otherwise have been spent elsewhere.
For every job visibly saved by the Government's measures, there is a portion of a job—sometimes quite a large portion—that is invisibly lost somewhere else in the economy. The Secretary of State deceives himself if he believes that the Government can create and sustain jobs. If a Government concentrate on protecting jobs, jobs will dwindle because, one after another, firms and industries will come to depend on subsidies and the strength of the economy will gradually be sapped and its capacity to meet the market and to create jobs in meeting the market will dwindle.
If the Government continue to focus on producers, that way lies poverty. The only way for jobs to be created is to look after consumers at home and abroad.
Mr. Booth: If the right hon. Gentleman's argument is sound when he says that money spent in protecting jobs has to come from sources that would otherwise create employment, would he apply the same logic to unemployment benefit?
Sir. K Joseph: Unemployment benefit is certainly a cost on the taxpayer or on borrowing, but it is wrong to assume that every unemployed person remains unemployed permanently. There is a relatively short average duration of unemployment—though it is longer than it has been—and it is wrong to assume that unemployment is permanent. People are moving in and out of employment all the time.
The way to secure jobs is to have a philosophy that puts consumers ahead of producers. Look after the consumers at home and abroad, and the jobs will look after themselves.
We have to recognise that the task of job creation in the economy will get increasingly difficult as more and more developing countries learn how to compete with us in producing our staple needs and services. We shall not always be able effectively to produce goods in competition with them. They can hire the best managers and buy the best machinery and put both to work with relatively docile labour to outproduce

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and outsell us at home and abroad. We cannot hope to compete unless we innovate as well as achieve higher productivity.
It is against this background that the industrial strategy seems a rather feeble weapon. I am sure that we all pay tribute to the 1,000 people in 39 working parties beavering away looking into the present situation in their industries. No doubt they are intent on doing something that they see as useful, but there is no impulse to convert their perceptions into improved performance.
The Secretary of State said that the industrial strategy leans on accelerated investment and assisted projects, but most of this investment and these projects would have occurred anyway, and in the cases where they might not have occurred there is no guarantee that they will be successful.
There remains the question of who pays for them. They are paid for by healthy firms and their employees, and an invisible unemployment effect is dispersed through the economy to offset at least part of the employment that appears to be created by the industrial strategy schemes. We have to avoid exaggerating the importance of the industrial strategy or employment subsidies.
I return to the basic fact that the Secretary of State has no vision to offer the country or the unemployed. Yet, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Shadow Chancellor said yesterday, and as a succession of my hon. Friends have explained, there is a strategy to escape from stagnation, from the current unemployment level and, over the years, from gross overmanning—a strategy which would not increase inflation. It involves a recognition of the function of the risk-takers, the decision-makers, the job and prosperity-creators. They come in all sizes—one-man, small, medium, large and giant businesses—and they produce services as well as goods.
We deceive ourselves if we ignore the fact that initiative and enterprise will not be shown unless we recognise the indispensability of these prime movers and entrepreneurs and the management, design, marketing and research skills with which they surround themselves. The motivation of these people is something
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that the Government and the Labour Party have totally neglected.
These people have to take risks, and they often have to go away from home for long periods. It is only sensible that they should have some chance of making a success for themselves and their families. The Chancellor and the Government—against the wishes of the Tribune Group—have gingerly moved part of the way in the right direction, but they will never be free to allow the rewards of success to come through to those who make the success.
The country must recognise that unless there is personal wealth there will not be national wealth. The motivation of these prime movers is not always and never only money, but money is nearly always an element in the basic satisfaction. These people on whom everythng depends are worse paid, higher taxed, more squeezed by inflation and less esteemed here than in any other industrialised country.
It was Keynes who spoke about the "animal spirits" of business men. How do the Government imagine that these spirits can be catered for within the cocoon of controls, disincentives and obstacles with which they surround us?
The Government will find it hard to do enough to make risk and effort worth while, because the Labour Party has for generations taught envy, egalitarianism and the unimportance of business men and managers. The result has been the increasing shabbiness, poverty and unemployment of the people of this country. The Labour Party has taught the wrong lessons for generations and must now unteach them. The correct lessons are not repugnant to most people.
Yesterday's editorial on page 2 of the Sun—which is a very valuable page for the country—[HON. MEMBERS: "What about page 3?"] I said page 2. The editorial said:
"The Chancellor should have had the courage to give a genuine incentive to the pacesetters whose skill and initiative are essential to Britain's economic growth."
It will not be enough only to provide incentives. There will also have to be a big switch away from unnecessary Government spending, partly to allow a decline in the rate of growth of the money supply in 1978–79 and onwards, but mainly to permit a cut in the marginal rate of taxation.

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We do not intend a consumer boom. We intend that consumers should spend more and that Government should spend less of the consumers' money. If there is such a switch and if there are incentives, we can escape from stagnation and secure the provision of jobs to reduce unemployment. Over the years over-manning will be absorbed if, as a result of incentives, productivity rises. There will be more small businesses formed, fewer small businesses dying and more self-employed. The medium, large and giant businesses will be more willing to take risks to expand.
The Government cannot do those things. They are imprisoned by party mythology, misunderstandings and schizophrenia about capitalism. They were born as a party to milk capitalism. They have helped to debilitate it and they do not know how to handle it now. The Chancellor has produced a mouse Budget with some genuine merits, but it will make only a mouse of a difference.
The Government's real duty to the people, especially the unemployed, is to encourage the job creator and to cut their own wasteful spending and taxing. Unless they drop their destructive anti-capitalist element permanently, and not just because they cannot get that sort of legislation through Parliament at present, the Labour Government will never revive prosperity. They are out of their depth. I hope that tonight the electorate will give them the signal that it thinks so too.
5.22 p.m.
Mr. Eric S. Heffer: The right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) has given us an old song. The right hon. Gentleman is an old singer. If the Government do not have the vision to solve the problems with which we are faced and if the right hon. Gentleman represents the vision that would be offered by a Conservative Government, God help the country if ever the Conservatives came to power. The right hon. Gentleman has talked unmitigated rubbish. I have never before heard such ideological nonsense from an Opposition spokesman.
The right hon. Gentleman failed to answer the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson), who pointed out that America
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happens to be the greatest capitalist country in the world, has a totally free enterprise system, yet has a high level of unemployment. That has nothing to do with propaganda for Socialism or Socialist policies.
I should be delighted if Britain had a genuinely Socialist Government pursuing Socialist policies. If that were so, unemployment would be somewhat different from what it is now.
Mr. Nigel Lawson Mr. Nigel Lawson (Blaby) indicated dissent.
Mr. Heffer: Conservative Members should recall what happened in the United States prior to the rise of Roosevelt. When Roosevelt came into power all that he wanted to do was to bring in some sort of Keynesian policies. He did not want to change the system. He merely believed that there should be some Government intervention. What was the attitude of big business and the Conservatives of America? They said that Government intervention would be appalling. All that Roosevelt wanted to do was to save the capitalist system in America. He did so by interventionist policies.
Mr. Lawson Mr. Lawson indicated dissent.
Mr. Heffer: If the hon. Gentleman does not believe that, he does not believe what Conservative Ministers and Members have been arguing in the past. Perhaps he has never read Mr. Macmillan's "The Middle Way". It is a very interesting book. I commend it to every Conservative Member. It does not contain the ideological nonsense that we have heard this afternoon. It is an acceptance, incidentally, of Keynesian policies. It is an acceptance that we have to have Government intervention to deal with unemployment problems.
Mr. Lawson: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is now a consensus among academic studies of that period that what went wrong in the United States was not free enterprise but a completely inappropriate contractionary monetary policy?
Mr. Heffer: As I am not very enamoured of what most academics say I am not prepared to accept that necessarily anything that they say is correct. Academics can be wrong. In fact, academics are wrong. Academics all

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come up with different theories and different ideas. We have to look at the practical realities of life.
The right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East said, for example, that Governments cannot create jobs. Apparently everybody else can create them but not Governments. What happened with the TVA scheme in the United States? What has been happening since the end of the Second World War in this country, under Conservative Governments as well as Labour Governments? Of course jobs have been created by Governments. It is nonsense for the right hon. Gentleman to say otherwise.
Conservative Members should not allow themselves to get into this ideological morass. Not that I mind. If they go about the country preaching ideological nonsense, the British people will have sufficient sense to realise, when the General Election comes, that the Opposition have no vision and no policy. We might not be doing too well, but if they came into power there would be disaster. It is about time that Conservative Members woke up to the fact that their present leadership is very poor.
Mr. Bryan Gould: Given that the problems of industrial decline have been with us for well over a century, I was wondering how far back the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) and his hon. Friends would be prepared to go to find the supposedly golden age in which the economy was prospering along the lines that they advocate.
Mr. Heffer: My hon. Friend has raised a very good point. Was 1930 the golden age? Was that the golden age for Conservative Members? At that time there was mass unemployment. Was the golden age at the turn of the century? Again, unemployment was at a high level.
Mr. John Mendelson: What about 1887?
Mr. Heffer: Around that time there were high levels of unemployment. Or was the golden age earlier still? The years that I have mentioned were times during the history of the capitalist system when the policies now being advo-
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cated by Opposition spokesmen were being advocated and put into practice.
No doubt they were the golden ages when Britain was great. It was so great that the British working people were living in poverty. They were not getting the right sort of education, and their homes were hovels. They were living in a society in which the children went without shoes and worked in the mines. No doubt that is the sort of golden age that is in the minds of some Conservative Members. I exclude some Members of the Opposition. Some of them are most rational and intelligent beings. They do not accept that nonsense. Unfortunately, that is not true of the present leadership.
It is said that we need to get rid of overmanning. That is very important. It is true that investment in itself does not create employment. If it did, we would not have had problems, for example, on Merseyside. A new grain terminal was built that employed a handful of workers, as against many hundreds. The unions were deeply concerned about the loss of jobs, but a handful of workers could do twice the amount of work that was handled by the previous labour force. That is true of all technological advance.
How do we deal with technological advance? Do we leave it to market forces? Do we just let it rip? Do we sack people and put them on to the streets? The answer, of course, to dealing with technological advance is to plan our productive resources. That is the step forward. That is what must be done. Surely the answer is the very opposite of what the right hon. Gentleman has been arguing this afternoon.
However, I do not want to spend all my time replying to the points made by the right hon. Gentleman. I should like to raise some serious practical points with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. I want to deal with the problems of the construction industry, inner cities and unemployment.
I am sure that by now hon. Members have become totally bored by listening to me and to my hon. Friends who represent Liverpool constituencies when we have said that in our city we have about 80,000 unemployed. A high percentage of those are construction workers—and they are not, incidentally, just unskilled workers. I accept that many

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who register as unemployed construction workers probably entered the job as unskilled or semi-skilled during the construction boom that occurred in the early 1970s. However, a great many skilled construction workers are unemployed.
On Merseyside, 25,000 workers have been unemployed for over one year. That means that they are now living purely on supplementary benefits and that they are really beginning to understand and to feel what unemployment is all about. The effects of the first six months of unemployment—and the first year, because of Labour Government policy in the past—are to some extent cushioned; but that does not last. With long-term unemployment, workers suffer terribly.
It is not only that. In Liverpool 8, a district that is represented by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Scotland Exchange (Mr. Parry), we have areas—I shall not call them ghettos because I do not think that we have ghettos in Liverpool—in which there is a high percentage of coloured workers. They suffer a double problem. They are unemployed and they happen to be black. There are problems in our inner cities with which we must deal.
I take the point raised by the right hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Walker). I welcome the sum of £100 million spread over two years to deal with problems of the inner cities as a step in the right direction, but it is actually chicken feed. It is only a very small beginning of what is necessary, and we need to step that up.
I say to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, as I said to the Chancellor at a meeting yesterday, that later in the year I want to see more money made available to deal with problems in the inner cities. Why do we have such problems?
Mr. Nick Budgen: Rent control.
Mr. Heffer: I do not know what rent control has to do with the fact that when the developers came in they tore the guts out of Liverpool and left it derelict, taking out all the small businesses in one fell swoop.
Mr. Budgen: By compulsory acquisition.
Mr. Heffer: The hon. Gentleman really must come up with some sensible answers to the problems.
How are we to revitalise the city centres?
Mr. Budgen: By selling them off.
Mr. Heffer: The first thing that we need to do is to ensure that in the designated areas the Department of Industry creates buildings for what I would call nursery factories on an extensive scale, with subsidised rents in order to bring back small businesses to the city centres. In city centres small businesses are important and can create a great deal of employment, involving many thousands of workers.
Mr. Nigel Forman: I should like to try to help the hon. Gentleman in his difficulty. Surely the main reason why the inner city areas are to benefit only from what he described as chicken feed over the next two years is that industrial production in Britain, as he well knows, is only just above the level at which it stood when the present Government took over, and unless one first creates the wealth one does not have it to redistribute for these desirable purposes.
Mr. Heffer: I wish that hon. Members would not keep churning out the same gramophone record the whole time. Let us deal with the reality of the problem. The reality is that with Government assistance we can create nursery factory units in city centres and ensure that small businesses are attracted to such factories, thereby creating employment. That means assistance with rents, and so on. It also means, incidentally, the extension of the scheme in areas of high unemployment, because we shall not get, overnight, full employment in those areas, much as I should like to see that happen. However, there are areas of the country, around Gloucester, Worcester, and so on, that do not have the same levels of unemployment, although there are still certain skilled workers who could well be absorbed in those areas.
I should like to see an extension of the scheme for assistance to workers, not merely in helping them to travel and, perhaps, helping them to buy a new house

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if they move from a private house. What about those living in council houses? That is a very important matter.
Mr. Budgen: Hear, hear.
Mr. Heffer: It is something that up to now no Government have positively dealt with. It needs to be dealt with in a really practical way.
Mr. Budgen Mr. Budgen rose—
Mr. Heffer: I cannot keep giving way. The hon. Gentleman must make his own speech in his own time. I cannot give way every couple of seconds.
I ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to convey the point that I have just mentioned to those in his Department, and to the Department of Industry and the relevant Cabinet Committee.
There is something else that should be done. Today there was an announcement in the House that airborne early warning Nimrod aircraft will be produced in this country. I want a situation in which British ships are built in British yards and in which British ship repairing is carried out in British yards. That is something positive that could be done. Ship repairing facilities could be developed on Merseyside to a much greater extent than they are at present. We have allowed them to decline. We can do something about that.
A positive move must be made in areas that have derelict port facilities that are no longer usable as ports. Liverpool is one such area, but London is another. I suggest that we ought to have some special type of machinery, special development associations or something of that kind, to designate an area of special need and to move in to ensure that something positive is done about it. We cannot leave this to the old regional policies. That is not enough, particularly in the present climate of economic crisis. I want to see special organisations created to move into such areas and deal with derelict docks, and to create work in the inner cities, to create new housing and accommodation and to deal positively with derelict areas.
As I said at another meeting yesterday, we on the Government side of the House have a genius for advancing
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money—in this case, we have given money back to the people—and still being unpopular. I do not know how we do it.
Mr. Peter Bottomley: It is not difficult.
Mr. Heffer: Apparently it is not, but an ordinary common sense lad would not do it. It needs a graduate or a double first to achieve this result.
It is about time that we looked at things differently. Why do we have to put 5½p on petrol? It may not mean anything to some people who are wealthy—I am sure that it does not—but for an ordinary working man who relies on his car to take his mates to work and to take his family out at weekends, another £10 on the road fund licence and 5½p on petrol is a great burden.
The Liberals, of course, want a shift to indirect taxation, but now that it is done they intend to vote against, because they want the best of all worlds. If we do not increase this tax we shall have to increase VAT, which is also indirect taxation. I am opposed to an extension of indirect taxation, because it is regressive.
Mr. Peter Bottomley: No, it is not.
Mr. Heffer: The hon. Gentleman had better try to convince me, but not just now.
If there are more and more taxes on the things that people buy—on the telephone, and so on—the poor income groups pay relatively more. One does not have to be a genius to understand that. One problem is that this Budget has unfortunately meant that the higher-paid will benefit more than the lower-paid. I do not say that the lower income groups will not benefit at all—of course they will—but they could have benefited much more.
This proposal is a movement away from the basic concepts upon which the Labour Party has developed its taxation ideas over the years. I want the Government to do much more, later in the year, for the construction industry and the inner cities. Even at this stage I want them to distribute taxation differently. I trust that by the time of the next Budget the Government will be pursuing much more the type of alternative economic policies for

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which I and my colleagues have been asking for the last two years.
Several hon. Members Several hon. Members rose—
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Myer Galpern): Order. I should remind hon. Members that the winding-up speeches will begin at 9 o'clock. It may seem early to intimate it, but 15 right hon. and hon. Members, who are all present, are anxious to take part. If we are to accommodate them all—as we can in three and a quarter hours—speeches will have to be reasonably brief.
5.43 p.m.
Mr. J. Grimond: I must begin by announcing that I am opposed to the petrol tax. It may appear to some people to be a tax on consumption, but it is in fact a tax on production. It will hit the rural areas very hard. There, cars are used for all the ordinary purposes of life, particularly for getting to work. The tax will raise the costs of agriculture, the retail trade and local industries. It has come at a time when freight charges are already going up by 10 or 20 per cent.
I appreciatè what the Financial Secretary said yesterday, when he admitted the plight of these rural areas, but he added that the Government had failed to find any way of dealing with the problem. The way to deal with it is not to put up the tax. The tax will also be an invitation to the oil-producing countries to raise prices still further.
It is useless to say that people should travel by public transport, because in many places it does not exist. Even where it does, as in London, it is so badly run as to drive people away. One waits for hours at bus stops and then sees convoys of buses of the same number pass in lugubrious funeral procession.
As for saving fuel, the first example should come from the public authorities. They could learn from America and reduce the heat in some public buildings. I wonder how many cars will be taken out of the Government pool. I sometimes think that if Ministers and senior civil servants ever used public transport, they would be less enthusiastic about encouraging everyone else to do so and less ready to raise the cost of petrol.
Any reduction in direct taxation is welcome, but the reduction in the Budget
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does no more than make up some part of what has been done by inflation and it will make very little difference to the economy. However, this feature of the Budget raises three questions of vital importance to the management of that economy, which today is largely a political, and not an economic, matter.
The first question is, what are we to do when we are beset by organisations and bureaucracies of all kinds, each demanding more and all resisting cuts of any sort? This is all taking place against a background of stagnant production. It is not Conservatism or Liberalism or Socialism to point out that one cannot make people richer simply by giving them more money, unless there are more goods to buy with it. Yet, as I say, production is not rising and it is doubtful whether it will rise or become more efficient in future. Certainly we cannot purchase more goods by going abroad, because we are up to our ears in debt. At the same time, inflation steadily burns away the possibility of investment. Money as a store of value is becoming less and less acceptable. It is even becoming unacceptable as a means of conducting international trade.
Over the last two or three years, it is probable that the public sector borrowing requirement plus taxes have taken 100 per cent. of the taxable capacity of the country. That means to say that nothing has been left for investment. We are already taxed, I think, up to 80 per cent. of our presumed taxable capacity—a figure greater than in any other Western country. Therefore, the best that can be said of the willingness, if it exists, of the trade unions to take only 4 or 5 per cent. extra is that it is a smaller wound than they might have inflicted. But let no one pretend that it is a benefit. Until production rises and indeed becomes more efficient, there should clearly be no extra payments at all unless someone is prepared to give something up.
Like all hon. Members, I receive every week well-argued pleas from this organisation, or that union or college, for more money. I always reply: "You have made a powerful case. Who will take less?" To that there is no answer. Of course it is true even of reductions in taxation that if the little extra money which people have in their pockets is

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spent, it may increase prices or someone will have to take less.
The next trouble is that taxation is primarily designed to take money out of the pockets of the people at large so as to make room for Government and public authority expenditure. It is this enormous rate of Government expenditure which makes high rates of taxation necessary. It is unfair to levy heavy direct taxation on the poor and it is ineffective to levy it on the very rich. Therefore, if demand is to be reduced, taxation must increasingly fall on the middle ranges. But these are the very people upon whom a great deal of the economy now depends and whom one has to encourage if one is to get more production.
The third handicap under which the country struggles is the size of the public sector. It has many drawbacks, but the one to which I want to draw attention is the fact that there is now no known way, which can be accepted as tolerable or fair, of fixing its salaries and pensions. When the public sector was relatively small it could be related to the private sector, but it is now bigger than the private sector. The public sector, on the whole, has achieved high salaries, almost total security of tenure, high pensions tied to the cost of living, and innumerable perks. That has not been of any advantage to the country. It has simply become another very powerful interest operating on its own. That is serious, because whatever one might like to do it is essential to cut down on non-productive expenditure and devote resources to production.
The public sector has to a large extent opted out of inflation, leaving industry and agriculture and other productive operations to carry the burden. There is a great deal in what Professor Beckerman has said, that if salaries of high public officials were, in monetary terms, fixed for ever at present rates a good deal more attention might be paid to inflation in some places than it is now.
I am quite sure that the economy will be far more affected by the pay settlement than it is by the Budget. I agree with the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) that we are indeed faced with a serious and continuing situation. Budgetary methods in particular
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have now failed for a great number of years. We need to attack inflation and unemployment with new weapons. How, then, do we do this? We have to see them against a background in which our methods of running industry, whether in the public or the private sector, give little satisfaction to many people who work in it and even less self-respect.
No one can fail to have a great deal of sympathy with the long-term unemployed. But it is also true that many people in industry feel quite divorced from any involvement or any enjoyment in their work. If the population as a whole were deeply aware of the public interest, and if that interest was linked to their own interests, we could indeed run the country much more simply and with greater emphasis on monetary policy.
But the huge size of the public sector makes it just as difficult for the monetarists as it does for those who want an incomes policy. Of course, if the innumerable bureaucracies would accept tighter monetary control and a reduction in numbers that might have to go with it, that would be a simple and effective way of running the economy. But if they would accept that they would accept a strict incomes policy.
The real difficulty is that the public sector and the attitudes that go with it make it difficult to run the economy whether by monetarism or by other methods. We have to get our ablest people into productive industry and not necessarily into the professions and administration. We have to get more out of them when they work there. Financial incentives are not everything. Although I welcome those that are given in the Budget, they are clearly not enough.
The solution surely lies in the direction of interesting workers in their own industries and their own welfare. This can and should be done by partnership in workers' co-operatives. These must be run by the people directly employed in the firms concerned. Nor must it be argued that all industry should be run in this way. The British must get used to encouraging different forms of economic organisations. We must also break the disastrous tradition of bureaucratic Socialism descended from the Webbs. To my mind that has

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been disastrous for the country and for the Labour Party.
There have been important developments with regard to co-operatives. One is the likely success of Meriden. It is interesting that Sir Arnold Weinstock is now putting money into it. He is not a man who is devoted to State Socialism, nor is he oblivious to his shareholders' interests. There are also extremely interesting experiments going on in the Mondragon group of co-operatives in Spain. These co-operatives were started not by Communists but by a Catholic priest, Father Arizmendi. They have become the largest manufacturers of machine tools, cookers and washing machines in Spain. The basis of the co-operatives is that profits are allocated to the workers not on the ground of ownership but on the ground of their contribution to those industries. They are organised in a form of a federation, and a workers' bank not only supplies the money but helps with expertise and management. There are numerous co-operatives of a similar type in France. They are springing up all over the place.
The advantage of workers' participation is well known, but it is possibly worth repeating. It helps initiative. That has been so in the Mondragon group. Workers are much more ready to accept new methods when they feel that it is their decision, which is not forced upon them. It encourages better industrial relations. Workers will put aside money for investment in their own firms. It relates the distribution of wages, and so on, to the profits earned. In the Mondragon group of co-operatives wages are called advances on dividends. It interests workers in the success and the good management of their enterprises. It does what Adam Smith hoped the private enterprise or mortgage system would do—it reconciles the individual's ambition with the public interest.
I should like to see the nationalised industries broken up into smaller groups and returned to their workers. I should like to see some private industry—not all of it—encouraged to go the same way and involve its workers in management. I should like to see savings banks turned into local banks and run as co-operatives for investment in local industry. Millions of pounds are taken out of the regions in this country and put into Government securities. Over the years this has
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proved good neither for the country nor for the investors.
The National Enterprise Board should certainly look at this type of development. It should also be encouraged in the Budget. The changes in company taxation, mentioned by the Chief Secretary, are helpful. He outlined what has been done for smaller companies. This, too, is welcome. But more can be done.
Because the Bullock Report is a bad and mistaken report, in that it puts the emphasis on blanket measures to cover all types of industry and simply accepts that the trade unions must appoint representatives, it should not blind us to the need for this type of development if we are going to restrain inflation and bring down unemployment. We must look at new methods of running our industry. We cannot go on year after year pretending that a little fine tuning will put right the long-term problems that the country faces.
5.59 p.m.
Mr. Doug Hoyle: My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) criticised the speech of the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph). I welcomed it because one usually only reads about speeches like that; they are usually made to very select audiences all of whom are Conservatives. It was most welcome to hear it made in the House, because one does not believe all that one reads in the newspapers, even if it is The Sun, which the right hon. Gentleman quotes from. I would call the right hon. Gentleman's speech a golden crock at the end of the rainbow. Like the rainbow, it was an illusion, a state that one will never reach.
I believe that in the meantime unemployment would soar. I notice that the right hon. Gentleman did not say anything about that. I believe there would be bankruptcies, which from time to time he has stated, are inevitable, and that there would be a decline in confidence to almost zero level.
My hon. Friend was right to say that what the right hon. Gentleman was talking about had not even happened in this century. We have to go back to the middle of the last century to meet the open, red-blooded capitalism that the right hon. Gentleman was describing. I

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cannot believe that in the latter part of the twentieth century any party could be putting forward such policies, but I thank the right hon. Gentleman for opening the door of the Thatcher cave a little so that we may look at a few of the goodies inside. I hope that people note the treats he has in store for them.
I am rather disappointed with the Budget. In many ways it is timid, when we should be preparing for an expansionist policy based on the planned economy that many of us have put forward for a long time as an alternative strategy. However, I welcome the fact that the temporary employment subsidy is to continue, because it has helped to provide more than 184,000 jobs. In the North-West alone 47,551 jobs depend upon it. That gives the lie to the right hon. Gentleman's statement that a Government cannot create jobs. The Government are successfully keeping people in jobs in industries that are suffering very much from the slump in the world economy.
Mr. Robert Parry: Is my hon. Friend aware that the TES is keeping about 9,000 people in employment on Merseyside?
Mr. Hoyle: I realise that. We are receiving the same kind of benefits in North-East Lancashire for the textile industry. Merseyside is already suffering from a high rate of unemployment. If the TES were removed tomorrow North-East Lancashire would become another graveyard. Therefore, I welcome the fact that it is to be extended for another 12 months and that the firms receiving it will be given further assistance for six months. It is a valuable measure.
However, because there is to be hardly any growth, unemployment will rise, unless more positive steps are taken. That is why I should like to see positive intervention through the National Enterprise Board. That is what we fought the election on. When my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton was at the Department of Industry he regarded it as one of the keystones of our economic policy that the Board should be interventionist, that it should be going into not only declining industries but successful industries to bolster them and provide
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the confidence needed if we are to bring about the expansion that we all desire.
My other criticism is that, although we now have some of the lowest wage and salary rates in Europe, we always seem to concentrate on wages as the only cause of inflation. That is not true. There are many other causes of inflation, such as high interest rates. I am pleased that interest rates are falling, but if the pound continues to float down—I hope that it has stabilised itself—that will continue to be another cause of inflation, because we shall have to pay more for imports. We face further inflationary price increases because, unfortunately, we are now members of the Common Market. That is one of the misfortunes we face in the coming 12 months.
Another cause of inflation is the activities of the multi-national corporations and their transfer pricing. I do not believe that it was an accident that the Chrysler Corporation made a massive profit worldwide yet managed to lose over £40 million in this country. A sum of more than £40 million had been underwritten by the Government, and we have had to pay. Those of us who were a little critical of the Chrysler deal when it went through have been proved right. This is an example of the kind of transfer pricing in which the multi-national corporations indulge.
I was not surprised when the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) said that he was against the 5½p increase in the duty on petrol. Yesterday his hon. Friend the Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) talked about crystal balls. If people look in crystal balls, they often find the results they want to see. I did not need a crystal ball to think that the right hon. Gentleman would say what he did today. A certain by-election taking place in Stechford has helped the Liberals to clear their minds of something that might be disagreeable, particularly in the centre of the motor industry.
I can well understand why the Liberals do not support the increase. I do not support it, but my reason has nothing to do with by-elections. It has everything to do wtih the fact that the working person with a family car will suffer. Because public transport costs are also going up, he will find it difficult not only to travel

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to work but to take his family on holiday or to get away from the large cities and urban areas at weekends. It is the wrong policy.
This leads me to the newspaper reports that we are reconsidering the future of the Mini, at a time when savings on petrol will be invaluable. If we scrap the proposed Mini we shall drag in even more imports of the foreign cars that are very good on petrol economy, an area on which we are not strong. We must think again about the decision to put the new Mini on ice, though when it was being contemplated my criticism of it was that it would be very late on the market.
Mr. Kenneth Clarke: I was interested to hear the hon. Gentleman joining his hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) in strongly attacking the 5½p increase in the duty on petrol. There is considerable speculation about who will vote with the Conservative Party on Monday in opposing the increase. Do we take it that, in addition to Liberal Members, the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friend will be joining us in the Lobby on Monday in opposing it?
Mr. Hoyle: I am not one who runs away when there is the sound of gunfire. Although I am critical of many aspects of the Budget, I must look at it as a whole, and, therefore, I shall reluctantly vote for it on Monday, because I am determined to keep this Government in power.
Mr. Kenneth Clarke: As far as I am aware, no one else is dividing against the Budget as a whole. That is not the intention of the official Opposition. There will be but one vote, and its only subject will be the 5½p increase in the price of petrol. The hon. Gentleman is against that. Will he be voting against it?
Mr. Hoyle: The hon. Gentleman is jumping the gun. He is looking in the crystal ball. Monday is a long time away. Certain people have taken up certain positions because of other factors, some of which will be over by Monday. Many people will be reconsidering the situation on Monday, and we shall have to wait, and see what happens then. I shall not be rushed into making prophecies of what will happen.
I do not accept the suggestion that, when we talk about the manufacturing
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base of industry, investment means a reduction in the labour force. I look again at what the Lucas shop stewards and work force have done in preparing an alternative corporate plan. They have looked at a corporate plan to manufacture things that are desirable and are needed by the community, such as heart machines. They have also looked at an alternative form of railroad transport, in order to bring about a saving on petrol. These are the kinds of things which, given the initiative, a work force in their place of work and in their own time, has put forward as an alternative corporate plan. If work forces in manufacturing sections were given this opportunity to prepare alternative corporate plans many more schemes would come forward. They would make goods that we need in this economy, and that is the right way forward.
I am sorry that the Chancellor has been so cautious. I think that we need to be more expansionary in our objectives, but now that we have set out on the road we shall see it through successfully. We must prevent unemployment from rising again, by having a new national plan and a planned economy. In that economy, the National Enterprise Board must have a central rôle.
6.11 p.m.
Mr. Peter Walker: A number of hon. Members on both sides have expressed concern about the obvious issues of unemployment and inflation. I share with the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) a continuing concern about the remarkable apathy of the Government towards unemployment in the construction industry. The reality of unemployment is that it has been grossly under-estimated in this House. Unemployment is, in itself, a massive cost to public expenditure.
In the 1920s and 1930s unemployment was highly deflationary, but today it is highly inflationary. At present we have 1¼ million people unemployed. The Economist estimates that this costs about £4 billion a year in public expenditure. Imagine that—spending 4 billion to produce nothing. It is very difficult to have anything more inflationary in economic terms. This continuing complacency on the part of the Government is very worrying.

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I enjoyed the speech of the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) very much. It showed the kind of thoughtfulness that we have come to expect of him. He has taken a great deal of interest in the position that he described in Spain and I am looking forward to hearing his reporting more about it at a meeting later on.
It is surprising how the Labour Party has been rather shy of the co-operative principle—a principle that has had remarkable success in this country. John Lewis is a partnership that has had pretty good success both in economic terms and in terms of staff relations.
What concerns me most is the fear that the reception of this Budget is totally wrongly placed. The Labour Party was slightly disappointed but nevertheless its members think that the Budget is not too bad. The Conservative Party regards it as a mouse step in the right direction and perhaps an improvement. To the Liberal Party the Budget is totally acceptable. In reality, eventually this will prove to be the most disastrous of all the Chancellor's Budgets, because there is one massive factor that no one has bothered to calculate. What will happen when the Government try to negotiate phase 3 of their incomes policy?
The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland said that a pay settlement was more important than the Budget, and I agree with him. The magnitude of the problem facing this Government is of such dimensions that it virtually dwarfs every other economic consideration. That fatal two years in 1974 and 1975 when the Government, in the first part, encouraged the country to pay itself 54 per cent. more for doing 4 per cent. less, have left this Government and a future Conservative Government with problems of immense dimension.
The public sector wage bill is now £26 billion a year. Therefore, to pay for that we have to find £40 a week from every family of four in the country. If, on arriving at the phase 3 negotiations, the atmosphere is such that the Government succeed in getting a settlement of 10 per cent., it will add £2,600 million to public expenditure. That will create a need for a massive increase in
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the public sector borrowing requirement or, alternatively, an increase in taxation.
What are the prospects? The Chancellor this year, unlike last year, gave no figure, because of the disastrous way in which last year's contract failed. Last year he told the trade unions that he would give them tax reductions and allow pay increases of up to 6½ per cent. He implied in his forecasts that if the trade unions agreed to that he would get the rate of inflation down to 7½ per cent. The simple calculation in the minds of many trade unionists was that there would be a 6½ per cent. increase in earnings and a 7½ per cent. increase in prices. They felt that this was a sacrifice but that it was, after all, not too bad. But that was not what the Chancellor delivered. The trade unions delivered their side of the bargain and kept pay increases down to 6½per cent., but the Chancellor, instead of his promised 7½ per cent., delivered something of the order of 17½ per cent., inflation. Throughout his period in office this Chancellor has been absurdly optimistic and incredibly inaccurate in his forecasts.
As a result of this latest miscalculaion trade unionists throughout the country have suffered the biggest drop in their standard of living since the war. The British Leyland toolmakers, not supported by their union, brought British Leyland to a standstill. Fortunately, that dispute was settled, but on what basis? It was on the basis of a massive expectation of what will come to the toolmakers in the next phase of the Government's income policy.
Even as I speak, at Port Talbot there is a strike of steelworkers, who are demanding a £10 a week increase. When that is settled I suspect that it will be on exactly the same basis of great expecLeyland is dispute—a basis of great expectations. Trade unionists are desperately depressed by their dropping standard of living.
However, management has reason to be even more depressed, and it is. In the view of management, going for a free-for-all even for just a few disastrous months would enable it to put into effect what it has been saying to its workers in the past—"We would like to give you more but the Government's pay policy prevents us from doing so." From the

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Management's point of view there would be great advantages in making a break from the incomes policy.
We have skilled workers, trade unions and management, all combined in believing that phase 3 must be very much more flexible or generous. They think that the word "flexible" allows them to have a bigger increase. I warn the Government that they are all in that mood. Yet nothing would be more disastrous for the country than for the Government to fail to obtain a sensible phase 3.
What would be the rate of increase obtained from free collective bargaining? The current rate of inflation is between 15 per cent. and 17 per cent. and the standard of living has dropped in the past year. What would any of us, as trade union leaders, want to get in negotiating pay increases? No trade union leader would negotiate less than the rate needed to maintain the standard of living. In a free collective bargaining situation I would pitch a claim at 25 per cent. to 30 per cent., because after tax that would be the increase needed to in-increase the standard of living.
What would that do to the public sector borrowing requirement and the strategy of this Budget. This Budget is bogus, because the figure put in as the public sector borrowing requirement must have contained an estimate for an increase in the public sector wage bill. Unless the Government succeed in obtaining an agreement with the unions they cannot keep to their strategy.
There is to be a change soon in the leadership of both the Amalgamated Union of Engineering Workers and the Transport and General Workers' Union. Will the new leaders, in their first year in office, be prepared to preside over a period in which the standard of living of their members is reduced substantially? Mr. Joe Gormley, for the National Union of Mineworkers, has already said that he is in favour of a quick return to free collective bargaining, and Mr. Clive Jenkins has constantly repeated that he is also in favour of such a return.
The Budget is a minor change of taxation here and there, with something on petrol tax, and so on. The real test lies in the incomes policy, which the Government have already operated disastrously. The first phase was operated
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generously, at £6 a week, with the promise that that would be the year of sacrifice. It was toughened up in the second phase, to the great depression of all concerned. Having, in the first two years, built up this massive public sector wages bill, the Government are in a desperate situation.
I am not too unhappy about a Labour Government being trapped in such a desperate situation but I am desperately unhappy about the country being trapped in it. I believe that in the autumn the country will be faced with a ghastly dilemma.
There is no way out by quickly going back to free collective bargaining. If the trade unions will not settle for something that will lower further the standard of living of their members, the present Government, or the alternative Conservative Government, will have to come to a ghastly decision about what they are to do about it. They will not be able to stand back and say that they will keep the money supply at a certain level and leave the massive wages question to the trade union leaders and the industrialists, because the theory that if money is short industrialists do not give big wage increases does not stand up to examination. In 1974 and 1975, the two years in which British industry had the worst cash flow problems in its history, it gave the biggest wage increases in its history.
So the situation is far more gloomy than the debate has so far given expression to. I hope that we will all support the Government's desire to get a sensible incomes policy for phase 3, but the tragedy is that their policies over the last three years make the achievement of that situation very difficult.
6.22 p.m.
Mr. Robert Parry: The measures introduced in the Budget are, like the curate's egg, good in parts. The Budget has received a mixed reception from the Conservative and Liberal Parties, from the TUC and the CBI, from the motoring organisations, and from other people.
I share the reservations of some of the trade union leaders about whether tax concessions should be dependent on phase 3 of the social contract. Over the past two years, during phases 1 and 2 of the social contract, we have seen a constant

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erosion of the standard of living of the ordinary people. We are seeing an increase in inflation, an increase in unemployment, and an increase in prices. Over the last two years, the old myth that higher wages can cause inflation, high prices and unemployment has been killed for ever. I therefore support the trade union leaders who are asking now for an end to the social contract and for an early return to free collective bargaining.
My constituents who are in trade unions and have had their wages restrained over the past two years will, in the very near future, receive a further cut in their standard of living, because many council tenants in Liverpool will soon be getting notice from the city council that their rents and rates are to be increased by about 60p a week. There are to be increases in gas and electricity charges, and further increases in public transport fares.
I think, therefore, that the people have suffered enough over the past two years. The only measure capable of giving the workers a chance at least of keeping their standard of living up is a return to free collective bargaining.
I promised that I would be brief, Mr. Deputy Speaker, if I were fortunate in catching your eye, so I shall deal, briefly only, with one point, which was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer), about the renewal of the inner areas of our large cities and help to our ailing construction industry. My hon. Friend and I know the problems of Merseyside. We were both employed in the construction industry. We are both aware of the frustrations of many of our trade union colleagues now unemployed on Merseyside. The £100 million allocated by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to assist us in these areas is too low. At least £500 million needs to be poured into the decayed inner areas of our older cities and to assist the construction industry.
My constituency covers Liverpool dockland and all the Liverpool inner areas. Council dwellings account for 90 per cent. of the housing stock. Of that 90 per cent., 80 per cent. are pre-war tenement dwellings or post-war high-rise blocks of flats. Many of our schools
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date back to the early years of this century or the later years of the nineteenth century. We have a tremendous chortage of nursery school facilities and school clinics. We have great need for a health centre in the Vauxhall area of my constituency. Therefore, the amount of money allocated by my right hon. Friend is quite inadequate.
There has been another development in the unemployment situation, the recent statement made by Tate and Lyle, which has a plant in Liverpool dockland, right in the middle of the inner area. Its proposals are that there should be a loss of 1,500 jobs throughout England and Scotland, and that 1,000 of these jobs should be lost to Merseyside. It is true that the company intends to provide 500 new jobs, but that will still mean a total net loss of 500 jobs on Merseyside. We simply cannot afford any further job loss on Merseyside. We have enough problems already with Plessey, Cammell Laird, Lucas, and other firms, without another 500 jobs going down the river. I hope that when Merseyside Members meet my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food next Monday, he will give replies to some of these objections.
My hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Hoyle) mentioned our entry into the Common Market as being responsible in part for an increase in food prices and inflation. I agree with him. From the point of view of Tate and Lyle, it appears that entry could mean the closure of the sugar cane refineries in Scotland and Liverpool. We feel that this loss of jobs, with the reduced level of production in the Liverpool refinery will mean that, in the medium term, the refinery could not be viable. The workers quite rightly feel that this could be the thin end of the wedge, in that the refinery side of the business in Liverpool might be closed, and that eventually we may see sugar cane refined only in the South-East of England—in London.
6.30 p.m.
Sir John Eden: The Chancellor hopes to get inflation down to 13 per cent. this year and to single figures by the second quarter of 1978. I hope that he is right. But I wonder whether he realises how cynical everyone has become about his forecasts.

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When the Prime Minister visited my constituency in May last year, he said:
"If you can grin and bear it for 12 months or more, then by the end of 1977 the inflation rate will be where that of our major competitors is now, at 6, 7 or 8 per cent."
Over the past 12 months we have not had much to grin about. We have certainly had to bear a lot. So far as I know, we have the highest starting rate for income tax anywhere in the world. We are far up the league for the top limits of tax on earned income. Unemployment is unacceptably high and inflation is rising.
Those are just some of the unsavoury consequences of Socialism. I see examples of them in human terms in my constituency, especially among the elderly who have saved and who have found that the value of their savings has been completely eroded. I find examples among small traders, many of whom have been put out of business or are struggling to survive. I have seen examples among young couples whose hopes for a home have been dashed by high interest rates. I have seen them among school leavers who have failed to get either a job to their liking or any job at all. They have all been affected adversely by the actions of this Government.
It is worth reminding the Chancellor that he is not on his own. It is not he alone who introduces the Budget, as one might have been forgiven for thinking if one listened to his post-Budget performance on television. He is part of a Government who have been responsible for a programme of legislation over three and a half years that has done grave damage to the country.
Much more than one Budget is required to put that right. The extent of the damage that has been done is well demonstrated by the high cost of achieving even the limited adjustment which the Chancellor has now proposed. Yet here is the Chancellor proclaiming to anyone who will listen what a success he has been. Let him pause for a moment and discern the realities of the industrial scene before him.
There are three problem areas that need to be tackled with more imagination and understanding than the Chancellor has shown so far. The problem areas have an impact on each other. They are in conflict with each other, or, at
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any rate, their solutions could give rise to contradictory policies if there were an attempt to solve all three at the same time. It is necessary, therefore, for the Government to determine their priority.
The first of the problem areas concerns pay. Certainly there must be restraint, but I must confess to apprehension at having to go through yet another of the front-line brinkmanship exercises and wait on tenterhooks for the trade union leaders to hand over the scrap of paper that the Chancellor believes to be so essential. I am also apprehensive about building up too high an expectation about phase 3. I am apprehensive about limiting the talks about pay to yet another one-off exercise. We need to operate on a strategy of perhaps a three-year basis. That would mean that intelligent people, which trade union leaders are, could see mapped out before them the economic prospects that the Government seek to introduce in the expectation that they would be able to act with the degree of responsibility, moderation and restraint which they profess is in their best interests.
The Chancellor will have to take account of the natural aspirations of the individual. There have been many destroyed expectations at all levels of income. That has been true for management, as the Chancellor has now recognised. The higher cost of motoring which be has proposed—if he can introduce it—will more than offset the encouragement that any marginal reduction in taxation might have given. There are enormous pressures involving skilled men in every sector of industry. They are placing the operation of plants at risk. We have seen the volcano erupt at British Leyland. We are now witnessing it again at Port Talbot, and it could become more widespread. That must be tackled urgently.
I conclude from an anxious look at this scene that there will be increases in wage and salary costs which businesses will have to meet later this year or next year. That could give rise to further unemployment. Particularly would that be so if the Chancellor were to hold to his present limit on prices.
The second area of concern is productivity. We are told that that is at the heart of the Government's industrial

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strategy. A call for increased productivity is often linked to the request for more investment. All hon. Members know that we need better plant utilisation and that by that means we could diminish excessive manning. Excessive maiming exists. Although it is not universal, it is widespread. If that is tackled, it will also give rise to further increases in unemployment.
The third problem area is job creation. Undoubtedly, where peaks of depression exist in a locality or area, special remedial measures must be taken. As a long-term solution, however, job schemes are not likely to do much good. It would be better for the Chancellor to encourage business expansion and to foster business profitability. That would create lasting forms of employment. Employment opportunity will come only from the private sector. New jobs will come from small businesses as well as large businesses.
If the Chancellor wants any guidance about his priorities, he should concentrate his efforts on the encouragement of business enterprise. Yet there is no incentive to start or expand a business. The climate in which businesses have had to be conducted during the tenure of office of this Government has been one of almost complete hostility. I am happy to say that it is now beginning to change. The Chancellor has certainly made a start in that direction, but there is the full weight of Government legislation on the statute book which is basically anti-business and anti-enterprise.
The Chancellor is calling for an economic miracle. That is headline talk. In itself it is totally meaningless. What we need is a fundamental change of direction. Hon. Members may have seen an interesting article in today's Financial Times under the heading "The Jobs Column". There is a quotation there from one of five leading figures in the executive manpower sector who is reported as saying:
"But all in all, I think this country will have to get back to fundamentals, and Denis Healey's obviously not yet doing that. He's trying to Scotchtape together the social contract and so on; he's not really tackling the fundamental problems of skilled work, differentials and productivity."
There is another fundamental problem that we have to tackle. We must move
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away from high-cost government towards profitable free enterprise, away from increasing public service employment and back to private service and manufacturing employment. The heavy on-cost of government at national and local level and in the nationalised industries that the private sector wealth producer now has to bear makes the job of wealth production near impossible. But it is to the production of wealth that the Chancellor should be bending his efforts. He should be exerting his influence and concentrating his energy in that direction.
The Chancellor and his colleagues should also try harder to end the chaotic trade union situation which has led to such widespread disruption this year and which consumes so much management time in having to negotiate in a multiplicity of different union negotiations in a single plant. He should make it really worth while for people to work and to save. When he begins to do that, there really will be ground for hope.
6.43 p.m.
Dr. Oonagh McDonald: I wish to talk mainly about the proposals for direct taxation that the Chancellor made in his Budget. I find it curious that the Chancellor is now giving away tax cuts of £1¼ billion when as recently as last September we were going through the agonising process of finding out how to cut public expenditure by £1½ billion. The results of those cuts will be felt in the coming months as people lose their jobs and receive a lower social wage in poorer housing, education, roads and all the other things that public expenditure provides.
It seems that the Budget is taking place in the wrong context. It should be coupled with those discussions about public expenditure cuts and people should be trying to look seriously at the question of how much they want in their pay packets and how much they want to receive in a social wage. The question should be put fairly and squarely to the people. That, however, is not the context in which the Budget has been prepared. Instead, the Chancellor has decided to cut income tax. In so doing, he has simply bowed in the direction of reducing tax on the low paid. That is where the burden of taxation now lies.

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If we look at the example of a father in full-time work, we see that the current tax thresholds are only a little above current supplementary benefit rates, without taking into account such things as rent and rate payments. If we take rent payments and so on into account, the tax threshold is well below the supplementary benefit rate.
A married couple without children start to pay tax at £20·87 a week, but they would receive £20·65 if they were on supplementary benefit. A married couple with one child aged four start to pay tax at £26·63 a week but would receive roughly £24 on supplementary benefit. The same couple with two children aged four and eight would start to pay tax at about £31 a week, but they would receive supplementary benefit of about £28 a week. That is where the real burden of income tax lies. That is where the Chancellor should have made his cuts. In fact, the cuts he has made benefit largely the higher paid. The really substantial benefits come for those earning about £110 a week and more, whether they are single people, childless couples or married couples with children.
The Chancellor has not give much help to the poorer members of our community. Perhaps the reason is that he has been mesmerised by his own figures. He has said that the average earnings for a man are now nearly £80 a week and that the earnings of four-fifths of employed men are within £30 a week on either side of that figure, so that a married man on £80 a week is just under £2 a week better off when all the income tax proposals are implemented.
The Chancellor has been mesmerised by average figures, which give a very misleading picture. Probably 60 per cent. of male wage earners earn below the average figure. That explains why, when one talks to people on the doorstep—and they have read in the papers or seen on television that the average male industrial wage is nearly £80 a week—they fold their arms and say angrily "I'd like you to tell me who earns £80 a week, because it's not me and it's not any of my friends." That is correct. Most of them are not earning anything like that much a week.
It is time that the Treasury and other Government Departments gave up quoting
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average figures for wages and presented the figure in terms of the median figure or the mode. Then, perhaps, the Chancellor would not be mesmerised in this way. That in itself would help to focus attention on those who need help most. Perhaps it would help the Chancellor to think that there are other groups who are too often neglected by the Treasury and the Inland Revenue when they think about how to cut taxes and how best to help people. Those groups include households in which the woman is the main breadwinner. One household in nine in the pre-retirement age group is a household in which the woman is either at work or looking for a job to support other members of the household. The average wage for a woman worker is £50·36 a week. My earlier point applies here too. Many women do not earn that average wage. Many households include widows and other lone mothers, a group not greatly helped by this Budget.
When I look around in society, I find yet another group not helped by the Budget—namely, widows on pensions and other one-parent families on supplementary benefit. I find that the supplementary benefit rate and the pension has been adjusted so that the child benefit due in April will be given with one hand and taken away with the other, although I understand that there are technical reasons for that. The Chancellor should understand the resentment felt by those who have to face this kind of taking with one hand and giving with the other. The resentment is bound to be intensified if they read in papers such as the Financial Times and The Guardian how many more highly-paid people benefit under the new tax proposals.
What has gone wrong is that we have a Treasury which is thoroughly out of date. Its picture of society needs to be brought up to date. The Treasury's picture of society is roughly that the married man is the sole breadwinner in his household and that his household includes himself, a dependent wife and children. That is true in many cases, but our society has changed a good deal. There are now more married couples without dependent children than with dependent children. In many households with children, the mother goes out to work or is perhaps temporarily unemployed and is looking

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for another job. It is now highly probable that the majority of married women are out at work. The figure in 1974 was 49 per cent., but the rate has increased in the past couple of years and I expect that the majority of women are already out at work.
The whole structure and attitudes of society have changed. Young couples with children now look upon their income as the family income. If the wife gets more child benefit to spend on food and clothing for the children—and especially on shoes, which are an extremely expensive item—that increase is regarded as part of the family income. It does not matter whether the wife theoretically gets it or whether the husband gets it.
This change in attitude is something to which the Treasury and the Inland Revenue in particular should wake up to. They should see what society is really like in the latter part of the twentieth century and see that it has changed from the immediate post-war period. Sometimes I think that the Inland Revenue is living in medieval times when married women could neither read nor write.
The Chancellor for the first time should have recognised the changed status of married women by permitting them to complete, sign and return their own tax forms. That would be a novel step for the Inland Revenue to take, and it is some thing that the Chancellor should think about doing.
There are other special proposals that I should like to see. For example, the Chancellor should have introduced a child benefit of £3·35 per child. That would have been an enormous and important addition to the income of low-paid families. If he did that and allowed it to be paid in full to one-parent families, it would have been a significant boost in income for that group too. It could have been done by replacing the marked man's allowance with a unisex personal allowance of, say, £890 a year and adding to that a band of tax at 20p in the pound for the first £500 of taxable income.
Those two measures combined would have ensured that no married man would lose out by the increase in child benefit and the abolition of the married man's
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allowance. No married man would have lost out but many families would have stood to gain, and many widows and other one-parent families would have been better off too.
Let me now consider the costs of these proposals. They would be partly funded by abolishing the married man's allowance. They could have been partly funded also by raising VAT by 2 per cent. They could have been partly funded by spending roughly one-quarter of £1 billion which my right hon. Friend proposes to give away in other directions, and I believe that this would be a more sensible form of benefit for those who need it most.
There is, of course, another way in which the Chancellor could have funded these proposals. It is time that he and the Treasury took an overall look at our taxation as it operates now and as it operated in the past. They would find that in the past 10 years Government expenditure has been increasingly borne by wage and salary earners. The trend has been away from taxation of company incomes and towards taxation of wages and salaries. This trend has continued at an increasing rate until it has reached the present position in which 51 per cent. of total revenue from all sources, direct and indirect, is produced by wage and salary earners and 8 per cent. by companies.
The figure for companies has shown a sharp fall. On direct taxation only, tax from companies in the past 10 years has dropped from almost one-quarter of total revenue in 1966 to one-eighth in 1976. That is the sort of thing that the Chancellor and his Treasury officials ought to be looking at.
We all know, and even the Treasury and Conservative Members recognise it, that many companies pay no tax. They are not picking up the bill for education or for the roads they use. They are not picking up the bill for the unemployment they cause. These costs are borne by wage and salary earners. In spite of the generous tax concessions for companies, investment has not improved. In 1976, after allowing for stock appreciation, company profits rose, and they rose sharply in the latter part of the year.
It is time that the Treasury emerged from its cloud-cuckoo land and looked

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carefully and clearly at the kind of society in which we now live. In that society the status of women has changed. The number of one-parent families has increased, and more women are going out to work. Those are the factors the Treasury should be taking into account.
The Treasury should also look realistically at the burden of taxation borne by companies and consider whether it is fair that a large multinational company with interests throughout the world pays nothing in corporation tax and pays nothing, directly or indirectly, for the services which it uses in the community. It is time that the Treasury and the Chancellor alike woke up to the world of 1977 and adjusted their taxation accordingly.
6.58 p.m.
Mr. Nick Budgen: It is not for me to defend the Chancellor from the attractively-presented attacks by the hon. Member for Thurrock (Dr. McDonald). Having listened to the hon. Lady, however, with some care, I find that I support the Chancellor and I disagree with her. She made a most eloquent plea on behalf of single women and women generally, but she missed the most important point of the Chancellor's case. It is that those who are weak in society are attacked most of all by inflation. We do not defend them by thinking up ways of increasing public expenditure or of marginal redistribution of the tax burden. We defend them most of all by trying to reduce inflation.
We should bear in mind primarily the social effects of inflation. On a personal note, I felt a little irritated as I listened to the hon. Lady's attractively-presented but spurious argument when I reflected that my hatred of inflation comes from the fact that I was brought up in a one-parent family. I saw my mother crushed by what were then very low rates of inflation. Neither she nor any of those in a difficult position would have been helped by the creation of further inflation through increased public expenditure or increased tax load and, ultimately, an increased public sector borrowing requirement.
I believe that the much-attacked Treasury is right at least in one of its
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central objectives, which the Chancellor stated as follows:
"The principal measures I shall be announcing will contribute to two key aims—getting our inflation down to the level of our main competitors and improving the performance of our manufacturing industry."
I shall say a word or two now about the industrial strategy. While I agree with the Chancellor's objective of attempting to contain inflation, I believe that the industrial strategy is wholly misconceived. It is misconceived because it is biased towards only one section of the economy, biased towards manufacturing industry but against commerce. Most of all, it is biased and dangerous because it is based not upon known and certain laws but, contrary to the rule of law, upon arbitrary and political expediency. It is based upon the haphazard desire of politicians to benefit those who may ultimately benefit them. It is ultimately the one part of the Government's whole strategy which is more likely to bring our democratic process into fundamental disrepute than is almost anything else.
There is clear evidence already that those who benefit under the industrial strategy are those who may, for instance, set up a workers' co-operative or who may take direct action to get what they want from their employers or the Government. This selective arbitrary industrial strategy is more likely to do lasting damage to the fabric of our society than is almost anything else, except inflation. It is also expensive, because it costs about £3 billion a year, and, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) is so often saying, that money could be fructifying in the pockets of private employers and they could be providing long-term profitable private employment for people who are at present unemployed.
Contrary to what the hon. Member for Thurrock was saying, the Budget should be judged principally in relation to its alleged attack upon inflation. When we think about inflation, we perhaps think most of all about the very successful attacks that were made against the last Tory Administration during what I might call the Barber years. A very convincing monetarist case was put against that Administration for the vast and increasing deficits which were accumulated in 1971, 1972 and 1973.

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One would have thought that, with a Labour Administration priding itself upon the high intellectual calibre of its Front Bench and on the consistency and logic of its advocacy of various causes, and in view of the scorn with which Labour has view of the scorn with which Labour Members spoke of those who now sit on the Opposition Front Bench, the same degree of consistency would have emerged from the Treasury when the present Treasury was advocating an economic policy. Yet we see that we do not have a monetarist Chancellor. We do not have a Keynesian Chancellor. We have merely an opportunist Chancellor. Last year, when the Chancellor was negotiating with the IMF, we had a monetarist Chancellor. He talked in specifically monetarist terms when he was negotiating with the IMF.
I draw attention now to the lead-in to the main part of the Budget Statement. I must apologise to the House, because it is asserted that I went to sleep during the course of this. I am sure that is not true, but, even if it were, I should have been wise to go to sleep, because there really is the most inconsistent rubbish in the first part of the Budget Statement.
We start with the description of the domestic economy, and there the Chancellor is talking in his most Keynesian terms, blaming the trade unions for the creation not of unemployment but of inflation. He says:
"I have said many times that we need to get our inflation rate down to the level of our main competitors. Last year's experience with the exchange rate shows what is bound to happen until we achieve that. Our inflation rate was falling rapidly in the first half of 1976, thanks to the £6 pay policy, but our rate was still much higher than those of our main competitors."
He goes on to blame our old friend commodity prices, and in the next paragraph we read:
"The response of the trade union movement, first of the £6 pay limit and then to its successor, gives us a very good chance of resuming the fall in inflation in the second half of this year."
Why does not the monetarist Chancellor tell the trade unions in an honest way that inflation is being checked by a very tight monetary policy? Why does he go on—
Mr. John Ryman: Could the hon. Gentleman read the rest of that passage? As he has left it, it is thoroughly misleading.
Mr. Budgen: Certainly. I am sorry to trouble the House again, but I shall repeat the paragraph. I hope that it is the right paragraph for the hon. Gentleman.
"The response of the trade union movement, first to the £6 pay limit and then to its successor, gives us a very good chance of resuming the fall in inflation in the second half of this year when the effects of last year's depreciation have finished feeding through into prices. Indeed, there is a real prospect of getting inflation into single figures by the second quarter of next year, provided that we can avoid substantial depreciation."—[Official Report, 29th March 1977; Vol. 929, c. 256–9.] If the hon. Gentleman is saying that depreciation of the currency happens as a consequence of causes over which we have no control, I say that that is wholly wrong.
The reason why the currency fell by about one-third during last year was that there was a sudden increase in the supply of money, so that foreign holders of sterling decided to withdraw their sterling from this country and as a consequence the exchange rate fell. I think it slightly ironic—I shall deal with this later in my speech—that the Bank of England is now holding down the exchange rate, having so vehemently complained about the exchange rate being driven down by wicked foreign speculators.
What one would look for from a Front Bench composed of such intellectual giants would be an element of consistency so that they gave honest leadership to the TUC and were able to tell the TUC that the advantage of entering into any sort of statutory or semi-statutory control of wages might be some amelioration of the rate of unemployment. They do not do that. Therefore, what is the attitude of the TUC likely to be? The TUC is told that, if it imposes a rigid and arbitrary control over its own members, the rate of inflation will fall. It has not done so. The TUC has been conned time and again, because the highly intelligent, distinguished Labour Front Bench do not have the courage to explain whether they are either monetarists or Keynesians.
Surely, by any sort of monetarist argument the Chancellor takes an immense

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risk in running such a vast public sector borrowing requirement of £8½ billion. He takes a risk, particularly if his estimated increase in manufacturing investment turns out at 17½ per cent., as suggested in the Financial Statement, because once again we shall find that during the summer and autumn there will be competition for scarce funds, and the Chancellor will then have the unpleasant choice of either allowing interest rates to rise or having to print further money.
That is where the real risk lies, because this is probably this Chancellor's last Budget. A new Chancellor will, of course, want to stamp his mark on our financial affairs. The present Chancellor having tried to give the impression that he is an iron Chancellor dealing with the profligate financial affairs of an outgoing Tory Administration, the new Chancellor will no doubt wish to be popular, particularly bearing in mind the age of the present Prime Minister. That is the real danger. The next Budget will be a popular Budget. This one is leaving the present Administration with what they describe as plenty of headroom, since it has the advantage of an extraordinarily lax definition of the money supply within the IMF constraints.
The definition of money supply in relation to domestic credit expansion leaves the present Administration with a great deal of room for manoeuvre. It is significant that at column 261 of Hansard the Chancellor spoke in vague terms of his target of an expansion of M3 of between 9 per cent. and 13 per cent. It is clear—it was perhaps made most clear by the helpful article by Mr. John Whitmore in The Times yesterday—that there is now a tight control of money supply. The money supply is now growing at about only 5 per cent.
The strategy of the present Administration is to achieve a massive surplus on the balance of payments as quickly as possible. The Government will do that by continuing to hold down the exchange rate. They will wait until North Sea oil starts coming in in substantial quantity. They will then find that, within the interpretation of the money supply by reference to domestic credit expansion, they will have an enormous amount of room for manoeuvre. We shall then see that the new Chancellor in a pre-election situation will, even within the constraints
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laid down by the IMF, start increasing the money supply good and hard. He will know perfectly well that the chickens will not come home to roost for another 18 months, and he will receive plenty of support from his Back Benchers.
Labour Members will say that they lost Stechford because taxes were not cut enough in this Budget. They will say that there was silly talk about the public sector borrowing requirement and that the Chancellor was in a monetarist mood and told them that he could not cut taxes further. But he will cut taxes before the next General Election. There will be another pre-election squirt of the money supply, and the Government will attempt to ride to fame on that.
7.12 p.m.
Sir Anthony Meyer: I shall not follow my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen) in his erudition or his forecast, althought I have a nasty feeling that he is right.
One of the features of this Budget has been the total absence of support for it from the Government side of the House.
Sir. K Joseph: They are all at Stechford.
Sir. A Meyer: I hope for their sakes that they will be more successful there than they are here—although that will not very successful.
There have been no speeches from the Government side to support the Budget. There have been attacks and criticisms from Labour Members below the Gangway who, we hope, will make their votes accord with their voices.
The hon. Member for Thurrock (Dr. McDonald) made a speech that impressed us with its grasp and erudition. If the Labour Party want a Chancellor from the extreme Left they could do worse than pick the hon. Lady. If she becomes Chancellor she should mediate on the fundamental truth that the present Chancellor does not seem to have understood.
There is a problem with the low-wage earner who has to pay transport costs and possibly tax at a level that means that his income and supplementary benefit are virtually identical. It sometimes means that there is even an advantage in his drawing supplementary benefit. On top

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of that, the gap between this miserably low level and the national average after tax deductions is horrifyingly small. I suggest to the hon. Member for Thurrock that if she imagines that the answer can be found in any jiggling about with the tax system, by altering allowances and the initial low band of taxation, she is kidding herself.
The only possible answer is so to increase the national wealth that we can begin a process of effective distribution. The Labour Party, by concentrating solely on fair distribution and excluding altogether the need to increase total wealth, has defeated its own objects.
Mr. Ryman: I appreciate the point that the hon. Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer) has made about the need to increase the national wealth, but does he not agree that there are enormous anomalies in the present tax system, affecting the poorer sections of the community, such as were described in the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Dr. McDonald)? The hon. Gentleman seems to be saying that these are matters of no importance and that there is no need to reform any of the existing anomalies that fall most heavily on the poorer section of the community.
Sir. A Meyer: Some of the things that the hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Ryman) has described as anomalies are not anomalies at all, but the inevitable consequences of trying to fiddle around with a situation that requires a much more drastic cure. There is little room for manoeuvre. Does the hon. Gentleman suppose that if he had room for manoeuvre a Labour Chancellor would not have eliminated these anomalies for good and all? It is all very well for the hon. Member for Thurrock to say that a first priority is to cut taxes to the lowest possible level. To do so would be so enormously expensive that, with the room for manoeuvre that the Chancellor has now, it is not open to him to make much contribution on this point. The only way is to liberate those forces of energy that will increase the national wealth.
I find certain elements of good in the Budget. One thing that I particularly welcome, because there are a large number of retired people in my constituency, is the tiny concession on the investment
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incomes of those aged over 65. Of course, that will be welcome—dismally small though it is—but it will not ease or remove the gnawing anxiety of those retired people who believed that they had just enough savings to see them through. Inflation has eaten into their savings at such a pace that some of them are now praying not to live too long while others are trying, and failing, to bring themselves round to the idea of applying for supplementary benefits.
Unlike any Labour Member, I commend the Chancellor's courage in giving bigger tax reliefs to those earning high salaries than to those on average salaries. It is always an unpopular thing to do, and it is guaranteed to lose votes, but it is a way, timid though it is, to encourage wealth creators in our society.
The trouble with this Budget is that, like the famous pudding of which Sir Winston Churchill spoke, it has no theme. The announced theme was a big transfer of the burden from direct to indirect taxes. That has failed to materialise, partly because of the need imposed by the vital necessity—according to the Government—of obtaining a successful phase 3. If that is to be done the retail price index must be drawn in such a way that the unions will be able to suggest moderation to their members in the pursuit of wage claims.
The Government have found themselves unable to make a transfer from direct to indirect taxation, in the hope of achieving a phase 3 that, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Walker) said in a truly remarkable speech, looks unlikely to be attained. If it is not attained the Government will find themselves badly damaged, largely because of the enormous build-up that they have given to the importance of obtaining phase 3. They have built it up so successfully that other people, including those in the Liberal Party, imagine that not only is it vitally important to get a stage 3, but that it will be possible to get an agreement that will mean something. I hope that they are right, but the Government have built up something that they are unilkely to achieve, and if they crash it will be all the worse because of the build up that they have given to it.
I turn now to the two forms of indirect taxation that have been increased by the

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Chancellor. The first is the duty on cigarettes. Under this Government, the price of cigarettes has doubled in three years because of increases in the duty. The Chancellor claims that in doing this he has made a positive contribution to the health of the nation.
However, it is interesting to note that the doubling of the price of cigarettes has taken place in five stages, with the Chancellor virtuously taking credit for making a contribution to the improvement of the nation's health on each occasion. In fact, each increase has been calculated to get people to say "Oh, hell. I shall have to pay the increase, because I am determined to smoke". It has been calculated to make people grumble but to allow them to continue smoking, and to give the Chancellor the same tax revenue as before.
If the Chancellor really meant to make a contribution towards improving the nation's health he would have increased the duty on tobacco in one jump rather than by a series of price increases that people could assimilate. I do not think that the present price should be increased, but it would have been better to go straight to the present price a couple of years ago.
The other indirect tax increases are the duty on petrol and the £10 on the vehicle excise licence. It has already been pointed out what a catastrophic effect these proposals will have on the economies of rural areas. Members of the Labour Party have regarded the motorist as a middle-class Tory for so long that they find it hard properly to assimilate the changes that have been taking place.
A car is no longer a toy of the rich; it is often a poor man's essential means of transport. This is true not only in those areas where public transport is very infrequent, but in those areas, all over the country, where is is cheaper for two, three or four people to go to work in one car than it is for them to travel on any form of public transport.
Areas such as my constituency, where unemployment is well above the national average—one adult male in five is out of work in Rhyl—are also areas of relatively low wage levels, with the result that people face high transport costs because they have to travel a long way to get
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to work and do not receive very much when they get there. This takes us back to the situation described by the hon. Member for Thurrock.
An increase in the price of petrol is one of the worst possible ways of increasing indirect taxation. It has been calculated that it will add £1 a week to the average travel-to-work costs of someone who goes to work by car. If he has a couple of chaps to share the cost, it will be reduced, but it will still go a long way towards offsetting the concessions made by the Chancellor on direct taxation. I am undisguisedly delighted by the thought that this duty increase is likely to be defeated in the vote on Monday and that the Government will have to think of something else.
If we consider what they can turn to, we find VAT staring us in the face. It is a good tax and it is unfortunate that it has achieved such a bad name because it has been badly administered. I blame partly my own Government for introducing it with a threshold that was far too low and partly the present Government for bringing in multiple rates which have added enormously to the burden of small shop keepers. I blame both Governments for allowing the deprivations of the VAT inspectors who, in many cases, are giving VAT a thoroughly bad name.
I see that the Minister of State, Treasury is looking a little unhappy. I concede that authenticated instances of unpleasant behaviour by VAT inspectors are few and far between, but they are widely reported and believed and it is important for the Treasury to ensure that such cases do not arise.
The Minister of State, Treasury (Mr. Denzil Davies): The structure of VAT was introduced by the Conservative Government for which the hon. Gentleman, no doubt, voted and the whole basis of the structure is that the VAT inspector goes to a trader's premises and inspects his books. That is quite different from the income tax system under which discussion generaly takes place between an inspector and an accountant.
The hon. Gentleman's Government deliberately chose not to follow that procedure, but to use a different system and he cannot really complain about it now.
Sir A. Meyer: The hon. Gentleman should not be so anxiously partisan. I was not trying to make a party point. If there is abuse and this is a bad system, why have the Government, who were violent in their denunciation of VAT when in opposition, not proposed any changes in the system? I hope that the hon. Gentleman will at least ensure that an instruction is given to inspectors to be careful about how they carry out their duties.
In the long term, VAT could do far more than anything else—provided trade unions were educated and shown its real impact on the cost of living—to take the burden off direct taxes. There could be a massive reduction in direct taxation if a single rate VAT were introduced. I should prefer that it were spread over a wider range of articles, though I realise that I am treading on dangerous ground here. However, the zero rating system is causing more trouble than it is doing good.
The Budget does a little to undo some of the damage that the Chancellor did as he trampled through the economy like a rogue elephant. We shall wait to see it improved further as the Finance Bill goes through the House.
7.28 p.m.
Mr. John Ryman: I should like to deal with a number of points in my short speech. I had not originally intended to speak, but I have been prompted to do so by the speeches of some hon. Members in all parts of the House.
I agree with those who have stressed the importance of the pay settlement between the Government and the unions this year and also with those who expressed misgivings about the perpetually mistaken optimism of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
I cannot remember a single estimate of the Chancellor that has been fulfilled, in relation either to the prospects of the rate of decline of inflation or to the level of pay settlements. I cannot remember a single occasion since he became Chancellor when, in the face of the most damning evidence to the contrary, he has not appeared over-optimistic out of all proportion to the facts of the situation as they faced him. Consequently, I have little confidence in his powers of prophecy
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for the performance of the economy in the near future.
I was particularly concerned about what the Chancellor said about the effects of the Budget on unemployment. The Government have a grave responsibility, particularly in the North-East, for the tragic increase in unemployment, and certain specific measures taken by the Government last year directly caused further increases in unemployment and aggravated an already bad situation. For example, the sudden and peremptory abolition of the regional employment premium in the Chancellor's statement before Christmas caused untold hardship and misery in my constituency. That was not merely because the premium was abolished but because its abolition was introduced at a few weeks' notice, thereby forcing many employers to create redundancies straight away and to cut back industrial training schemes.
I recognise the Chancellor's point of view that the regional employment premium was not the best instrument for areas that required assistance in dealing with unemployment. There is a case for producing assistance in a different way—for example, the temporary employment subsidy. However, I can see no merit in the Chancellor's action in introducing the abolition of REP shortly before Christmas, to take effect at the beginning of January. The announcement of abolition was made with employers and management being given no notice. They found all their financial planning in the previous quarter to be worthless because they were not to be in receipt in the new quarter of the money that had been promised them by the Government in the previous quarter.
In my constituency there are a number of examples of employers who were extremely worried by the suddenness of the change in the Chancellor's policy. As a result, a large number of additional redundancies occurred and industrial training had to be restricted by a number of companies.
I am completely dissatisfied with the Chancellor's optimism expressed in his Budget Statement about the proposals he is now introducing to deal with unemployment. I have no confidence in his optimism. It is a tragedy that a Labour Government, who are now in their fourth year of office, have been helpless in the

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face of mounting unemployment throughout the country.
Although estimates differ, one Cabinet Minister a short while ago predicted that by the end of this year there would be 2 million unemployed. If a Conservative Administration had ever ventured to make such a phophecy, there would, quite rightly, have been an outcry. I find it appalling that a Labour Government should apparently be absolutely helpless in dealing with this tragic problem, which we are all agreed should be one of the first priorities of any Government.
I shall now deal with specific proposals. I deeply deplore the increase in the excise licence fee from £40 to £50 for all motor vehicles. It seems quite illogical that all cars and all car owners should be expected to pay the same fee for the excise licence. Why should the owner of a Mini—I declare a personal interest as I am the owner of a Mini—pay the same excise licence fee as the owner of a Rolls Royce, Bentley, XJ6 or XJ12? It is quite absurd.
The original intention of the excise licence fee was to produce a fund for the roads. Successive Governments of all political complexions have raided the fund from time to time for purposes other than those connected with roads. We now see an appalling increase that many owners of modest cars—they are not all Tories by any means—simply cannot afford, coupled with the proposal to increase the cost of petrol, the increased capital cost of car purchase and the increased cost of car maintenance.
I made the same point two years ago in a speech in the Budget debate. The Minister, the present Financial Secretary to the Treasury, promised that the Government would consider the proposal seriously. Indeed, at the end of the debate the Chancellor said that he would look at the proposal seriously and that he thought there was a strong case for having a differential excise licence fee so that owners of cheap cars should pay a smaller fee than the owners of expensive cars.
I think that that is a jolly good idea. I am amazed that the Government have done nothing in that direction. Indeed, they have gone the other way and introduced a flat, overall increase. The other side of the coin is that those who run expensive cars are not the personal
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owners. The cars are usually owned by companies and they are driven by directors or senior employees. Here is a disparity and an unfairness that the Government should want to avoid.
I deplore the increased tax on petrol. I shall not support the Government in that proposal because it seems iniquitous that once again the motorist, who has been fleeced by successive Governments of all political complexions, should have to bear an intolerable additional burden. There are large parts of my constituency that are badly served by public transport. We have no railway. Dr. Beeching saw to that many years ago. There is a rural bus service in various parts. The bus company does its best to provide a good service, but it is wholly inadequate for the needs of the population.
Many people, although they cannot afford to do so, have to have either a motor cycle, a motor scooter or the share of a car when going to work. The new tax on petrol is wholly unnecessary. It will involve enormous hardship for motorists and other sections of the population, and I shall not support it.
Perhaps my hon. Friend the Minister of State will be kind enough in his reply to enlighten us why the Government have not done anything about abolishing the tax distinction between earned and unearned income. I have never been able to understand why unearned income should be taxed at a higher rate. Unearned income today was earned income yesterday. A person does not have unearned income unless it has been earned. If a person works sufficiently hard to make a modest saving and in subsequent years derives an income from the capital, why should he or she be taxed at a higher rate than what is now described as direct taxation on earned income?
Sir. A Meyer: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will repeat that a little louder. I am not sure whether the Minister is hearing.
Mr. Ryman: I hope that my hon. Friend is hearing me.
If it is said that a person who derives benefit from unearned income has inherited the money, that can be overcome by increasing death duties or dealing with legacies, for example, by other fiscal policies. I see no merit in perpetuating

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this iniquitous system whereby income is subject to high rates of taxation because it is allegedly unearned. The system hits particularly hard the widows for whom the Chancellor has done virtually nothing in the Budget. They are penalised by a most unfair earnings rule. It also hits hard elderly people who are living on modest savings.
About three weeks before the Budget I wrote to the Chancellor. I made a special plea on behalf of widows. Do you know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Chancellor did not even have the courtesy to acknowledge my letter? In my letter I set out in detail the case for widows. [Interruption.] This is a serious matter. It is not a matter of levity. I referred to the serious plight of widows—not only war widows and industrial widows but many other categories of widow. For the purposes of tax law there are seven different types of widow. They are all in a desperately serious plight. They simply cannot make ends meet in the face of inflation and particularly the high cost of food.
I wrote to the Chancellor about three weeks ago asking for special consideration to be given to widows. I said in my letter that I appreciated that he could not give any commitment or anything of that kind, but I asked him to confirm that he would sympathetically consider the plight of widows. I was appalled. Perhaps the Minister of State will be good enough to ask the Chancellor why he did not even acknowledge my letter, let alone why he did not give me a sensible answer, or any answer at all.
There is one good thing that I see in the Budget—at last. I welcome the Budget in the sense that it undertakes to deal in some ways with continued tax avoidance and evasion, although the terms of that seem to be extremely vague. Again, I disclose an interest. For five years I advised the Inland Revenue in a legal capacity in many cases of this type. That was an appointment that I gave up when I had the privilege of coming into this House, because it was an appointment under the Crown.
I am appalled by the enormous amount of tax evasion that still goes on, particularly with cash businesses, whether it is a greengrocery business, a horse dealer's
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business, farmers, launderettes, scrap metal dealers or the like. An extraordinary amount of dishonest tax evasion goes on, and the Inland Revenue is apparently powerless to do anything about it. It must cost the Exchequer millions of pounds a year.
I shall be most interested to hear what the Government will do about dealing with tax avoidance and evasion of that type. I am thinking not of sophisticated accountants or sophisticated tax evasion machinery conceived in the City of London or anything of that kind but of the plain dishonesty, of which there is an abundance of evidence, that goes on in cash businesses.
A lot has been said in favour of an extension of value added tax and about the unpopularity which that tax is attracting by reason of the behaviour of some inspectors from Customs and Excise in enforcing VAT. I have had no personal case of that kind brought to my attention in my constituency, but I have had many cases brought to my attention by traders and individuals in my constituency of the enormous amount of extra work that they have to do in bookkeeping and documentation in order to act as unpaid tax collectors for the Government.
Why on earth should they do that? Why should a busy chemist's shop, a butcher's shop or a shop of that kind have to go to enormous expense to fill up all the ridiculous forms and keep additional books in order to collect tax for the Government? If the Government want them to do that, they should make allowances for traders to be reimbursed for the additional expense that they often have to incur intolerably concerning paperwork. Customs and Excise officers are efficient. They insist on books being kept, and rightly, and on the proper records being kept. But the maintenance of this tax is placing on intolerable burden on traders and individuals of all kinds.
The matter is made a thousand times worse by multi-rate VAT, which the Government, in their anxiety to remain within the EEC, have been forced to adopt, and will be forced to adopt more frequently in the future as more and more multi-rate VAT is introduced. I should be very interested indeed to hear from the Minister in due course whether it

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would be possible to alleviate the hardship and extra work borne by traders in the administration of VAT.
I end where I began, with a plea to the Government to alter their economic strategy and their fiscal policies, if they have any, in order to face the most fundamental problem of our time—that is, the increasing unemployment in the country, about which the Chancellor appears to be absolutely hopeless to do anything. Concerning the taxation of petrol, I confirm what I said earlier—that I shall certainly not support the Government in the introduction of such an additional tax.
7.45 p.m.
Mr. Geoffrey Dodsworth: I shall not attempt to follow the logic of the arguments advanced by the hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Ryman), other than to observe, as one of my hon. Friends has said, that it is remarkable that the speeches from the Labour Benches do not appear to find the Budget very attractive. Now we have gone a stage further, and I understand that not to vote for it becomes an addition to not finding it attractive.
I want to point to one aspect of the Budget. At column 260 of Hansard for Tuesday the Chancellor refers to the price control question and mentions in particular the desire to have a new power to freeze a particular price for up to a year when an independent investigation shows that to be justified. I believe that prices are a fundamental part of such a Budget strategy. It seems a curious oversight that only a very small amount of attention, as far as I can see, has been paid to this necessary sector of our economic activities.
We had a trailer from the Department of Prices and Consumer Protection in February this year in which it indicated that there was likely to be a new Government policy on prices. It referred to the particular areas of price about which I am concerned this evening—prices in the nationalised industries and particularly expenditure through nationalised industries. In a speech made in Cardiff by the Under-Secretary there was a reference to the Government' new policy on prices. He said
"In place of the cumbersome rigidities of the cost controls operated under the present Price Code we propose a new instrument for
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specific investigations into prices by the independent and reconstructed Price Commission. Nationalised industries will be within the ambit of this policy. Under the legislation which we shall shortly be bringing forward, the Commission will be able to investigate the prices of those nationalised industries referred to it by the Government."
I hope to demonstrate during my remarks that Parliament itself has been completely losing power over expenditure. But it is worse than that; it is also losing control over income matters and, in particular, the prices that are being charged through nationalised industries. We as a Parliament have a responsibility in that matter—a responsibility in which we have been failing.
If one examines the content of the Financial Statement and looks at its components, one finds it interesting to observe that the figures shown on page 34, under the heading "Forecast Effects of Changes in Taxation", show reductions in tax of £1,830 million and an increase in Customs and Excise duties of £786 million. On that page no mention is made of the national insurance surcharge, which is to increase by £1,159 million. Therefore, we can say that all those net costs are being paid for by the national insurance surcharge in any event. What we have today is nothing but a charade.
All this pales into insignificance alongside the steamroller programme of the nationalised industries, which is operating at an ever-increasing level. On page 19 of this very interesting and no doubt statistically accurate document—I make the qualification that I am being selective—the trading surplus of the nationalised industries amounts to £4·3 billion. That is indeed a figure of some magnitude when we are considering a total Budget of about £43 billion.
It seems to me that we are tinkering when we talk about tax reliefs. At the same time, we are not addressing ourselves to the real problems of control of expenditure in an area in which the Government ought to be competent and able to control that expenditure. We know that in addition to the actual expenditure it has a recoupment capability within its trading surplus. It is to that matter that I should like to turn in a little more detail.
We have a mechanism that provides that if nationalised industries wish to raise their prices they must apply to the Price

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Commission for permission. We have had an instance recently of the Secretary of State for Energy putting up gas prices and that matter being referred to the Price Commission.
When dealing with nationalised industry prices, the Price Commission is in some difficulty. In its report in August 1976 it said:
"It is essential that we should realise that the control of nationalised industry prices is effectively vested in the hands of Ministers responsible for nationalised industries and not in the Price Commission. Provided that the responsible Minister feels that the price increases can be justified, then they must be accepted. He may, however, restrict the increase in certain conditions."
Through the Budget strategy, we see a large balloon of a whole area of operation that can effect the consumer and the individual taxpayer—an area of operations that is getting further and further outside Parliamentary control. Particularly when we are controlling expenditure through the operation of Statutory Instruments and the limitation of borrowing powers, these elusive mechanisms are being operated so as to prevent the fullest debate. Although 2,000 Statutory Instruments go through the House in a year, we should address ourselves particularly to a proper method of controlling the expenditure and prices of the nationalised industries.
This problem was well illustrated in the recent question of gas prices, which arose from the Budget strategy. Under that strategy, £100 million had to be raised, particularly from the energy industries, to reduce the public sector borrowing requirement. The Secretary of State decided that it should be found by increasing gas prices, and it was convenient to increase them by 10 per cent. from 1st April.
That was a retrospective action, since any meter reading after 1st April will relate partly to gas consumed since 1st January. This is an alternative tax on the consumer, and he should have some protection. One would have thought that that protection would come from the Price Commission, but it does not. The commission recommended against such an increase but the Minister did not accept the recommendation.
That is not entirely satisfactory. The Counter-Inflation Act allows for such a ministerial consent to an increase but
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provides that the reasons should be published. When I last inquired, yesterday, I discovered that the reasons have not yet been given. If the Minister consents and is satisfied after consultation with the commission that exceptional circumstances justify his intervention, he can approve the increase—as the Secretary of State has done in this case. But his written consent has not yet been published.
This is a small point, but it shows how the control mechanisms are failing, because there are too many of them and because Parliament has delegated so much authority that it does not have a firm grip on its own affairs.
We need not just a freeze on prices, an investigation of special cases and an investigation of nationalised industries in general, but a radical overhaul of the price mechanism in those industries to ensure that justice is done and that an alternative form of indirect taxation is not being levied. We should also ensure that we control all levels of expenditure and examine the methods by which this is being achieved, so as to satisfy ourselves that the control over borrowing limits and guarantees is working as effectively as it should. I do not believe that that is happening at the moment.
Any investigation should be much wider. Then we should begin to tackle this contribution of £4 billion to the Income and Expenditure Statement—a sum that dwarfs all the other changes recommended by the Chancellor.
7.55 p.m.
Mr. Richard Luce: I agree with almost everything that my hon. Friend the Member for Hertfordshire. South-West (Mr. Dodsworth) has said, particularly about the need for the legislature to exercise greater control over the Executive, not only in expenditure but in many other areas. The emptiness of the Chamber today is a reflection of the ebbing away of the power of the legislature in relation to the Executive. I therefore warmly welcome my hon. Friend's views. One way in which we could exercise greater scrutiny, in expenditure and in other areas, of the Executive is by means of powerful Select Committees which could examine much more effectively than they do now the activities of different Departments.

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There has naturally been much anxiety in this debate about the low standard of living of many people and the need to create wealth. I want to deal with one subject only—the need for innovation and the implementation of new ideas in industry. I suppose that I should declare an interest as a vice-president of the Institute of Patentees and Inventors. It is not a monetary interest, but I should declare it nevertheless.
Our industrial success depends largely on our ability to innovate and to implement new ideas. It is said, although it is difficult to back up the statement with practical evidence, that we have been and still are good at inventing but bad at implementing. There are many examples of new ideas produced here but implemented elsewhere, particularly in the United States.
Tomorrow's standard of living and tomorrow's exports and economic survival depend upon innovation, which affects our ability to be competitive and to produce new machinery which is more efficient, new products, better design and goods of the right quality and at the right price. Thus, innovation is closely linked to the creation of wealth.
The creation of new industries in turn is essential to the provision of employment in the long term, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) rightly said in his excellent speech. It follows that the greater the profitability of any innovation, the more jobs will be created. The record since the war shows that as profits have increased employment has increased, and that as profits have fallen employment has shrunk. There is a clear link there.
If we do not innovate, we become more and more dependent upon imports of machinery and products which are more efficient. Russia, which does not have the right climate and enivornment for innovating, depends almost entirely on Western technology. That dependence will continue as long as Russia is unable to innovate. As a result, it has accumulated enormous outstanding debts with the Western world.
Therefore, I want to examine the Budget in relation to whether in the long term it will create the right climate for innovation. We need to look at the Government's
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taxation strategy if we are to examine this problem. I have come firmly to the conclusion that what we desperately need in this country is a selective fiscal amnesty for innovators and entrepreneurs. The key to this is to create a situation where we can increase the ability of new businesses—and, indeed, existing businesses if they wish to expand—to raise capital, and to encourage existing businesses in particular to retain their profits.
Moreover, it is essential to reward the risk-taking of entrepreneurs. Small businesses have a critical rÔle in innovation. The Bolton Report on small businesses in the early part of the 1970s not only highlighted the importance of small businesses in terms of their contribution to the gross national product and the fact that they employed about 6 million people. It also highlighted the fact that small businesses implement many new ideas. They have, therefore, an important role to play.
Labour Members talk desperately about the need to create more employment. There are about 1¼ million small businesses in this country. If we were to create a climate in which those businesses could expand and each of them could employ only one extra person, we would end the present level of unemployment. If we could only create the right climate for innovation as well as for encouragement to small businesses, we should see unemployment decline in due course at great speed.
In my view, there are a number of areas for action with regard to taxation. I would say, first that we need a climate of taxation stability. Since the war there have been 60 company taxation changes. There is a desperate need to create a situation of stability. This comes back to the need for Select Committees to examine new taxes and to scrutinise the Government.
The interesting thing is that every aspect of taxation affects innovators. If we take income tax, for example, we find that unless income tax is reduced we do not encourage people to innovate. I do not need to repeat the fact that our rates of income tax are extremely high. Although one welcomes the Government's gesture in the Budget, it is only

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tinkering with the problem and is only a small step down a long path.
I recently read a report produced by the Anglo-German Foundation which illustrated the profound differences in personal taxation between this country and Germany. It found that if two individuals, one in Germany and one in this country, accumulated income over 10 years of £236,000 gross, the average income tax in Germany amounted to 33 per cent. while in this country it was 67 per cent. That illustrates the dramatic difference between the two countries. The same applies to the tax surcharge on investment income. That plays a leading part in inhibiting innovation in this country.
The close company provisions also, in my view, inhibit innovation in this country, because we have a situation in which these companies are obliged to pay a large percentage of after-tax trading profits as dividends. What we need to do is ease the rules and encourage the accumulation of capital in that kind of business. Equally, in the treatment of capital losses we need, for a defined period, to encourage a situation where small businesses and individuals are allowed to deduct capital loss from shareholders' personal income before they are subject to income tax. This would help people to accumulate capital and to innovate.
Corporation tax also illustrates how innovation is affected by every area of taxation. I welcome, of course, the small move to encourage small businesses by increasing the lower-tier rate of 42 per cent. from £30,000 to £40,000 before one pays the higher rate, but that is only tinkering with the problem. It needs to be at a much higher level. With regard to capital taxation, we find that capital transfer tax prevents people from passing on their businesses within their own families, and this again inhibits innovation. Capital gains tax, unlike what happens in a country like Germany, is penalising, and it usually penalises paper gains. The Government would do well, if they want to create the right climate for innovation, to remove the threat of the introduction of a wealth tax.
A final area which has been mentioned many times is VAT. That affects a small business in the way it operates because
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there is not a single rate but two main rates. The turnover or threshold figure is still far too low and the procedures are still too complicated. That is another example where we could ease the situation for small businesses. If we examine the Budget in the light of its requirement to create wealth with which to innovate in this country, and to provide not only a higher standard of living but more jobs, we see that although some of its aims are welcome it hardly begins to tackle this major fundamental problem in our country.
I had the privilege the other day of being chairman of a working party which set up a conference entitled Economic Revival and Industrial Innovation. I was very impressed by the quality of the lectures. The important fact was highlighted that, if we are to innovate successfully, people must understand that innovators need finance, and very often a great deal of finance. In the 1950s Pilkington's introduced the float glass process but it needed £7 million before it could make the idea a commercial success.
Equally, when we consider the development of the gramophone record from 78 rpm to 33⅓ rpm, we find that a large amount of resources was required to undertake that development. In electronics, the change from thermionics to devices for transistors needed vast sums of money to develop and carry out the right research before implementation. The National Research Development Corporation has, over 23 years, had 28,000 submissions on new ideas for implementation, but only 37 have been substantial earners. That indicates the enormous risk that people take when they innovate and the need to give them sympathetic financial treatment.
The real problem for the innovator is the raising of finance. There are three sources. He can raise it from shareholders, but at the moment they get a poor return. He can borrow, but the costs are so high. Thirdly, he can derive it from retained profits. That is an area of fundamental importance where we need to create a change of climate in our country today.
During the conference that I have mentioned, an interesting lecture was given by Dr. F. E. Jones, President of the Engineering Industrial Association. He graphically highlighted, by means of

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charts, something that brings home the real problem. He talked about the added value to our wealth per employee in manufacturing industry. That added value is distributed, first, in employees' pay, secondly, payments to shareholders, thirdly, in the money that the Government take in taxation and, lastly, in money available for depreciation, innovation and expansion.
We find a fascinating figure when we compare United Kingdom manufacturing industry in 1975 with Japanese manufacturing industry in the same year. The amount available for retention for innovation and expansion is far higher in Japan—18·5 per cent., compared with 9 per cent. here. Only in exceptionally successful companies such as Pilkington's do we have figures anywhere near the Japanese level for the amount and percentage available for depreciation, innovation and expansion. This highlights our fundamental problem in innovation.
If we are to succeed economically and to encourage innovation, our requirement now is a massive blood transfusion for private manufacturing industry. We must have taxation policies designed to encourage the supply of capital to private industry. If we replenish and nurture the seed corn of industry, we shall in turn replenish and nurture the British nation. We must innovate in order to succeed.
8.12 p.m.
Mrs. Margaret Bain: It will come as no surprise to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, or to hon. Members who are still present to be told that I intend not to follow many of the arguments pursued today but to take a particularly Scottish view of the Budget and its implications for Scotland.
We in the Scottish National Party have argued in the past that Scotland should have a separate Budget because of the differences in our economy from that of the United Kingdom as a whole. We should have liked an expansionist Budget. There are many aspects of this Budget that we do not like.
It was most encouraging to hear some Labour Members below the Gangway earlier. Some of them might have the courage of their convictions and join us on Monday in voting against some aspects
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of the Budget. The official Opposition should not count on there being only one Division, because the SNP dislikes many aspects. We intend to continue our rôle as the most effective Opposition party in the House.
Unlike the hon. Members for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Hoyle) and for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer), we have no hesitation about bringing down the Government, because we are very keen to have a General Election, particularly in Scotland. That is not because we think that the official Opposition might make a better Government. We know only too well that their record in Opposition has been appalling, and such details as we know of their so-called alternative strategy give us little hope that they would be effective in dealing with the problems north of the border.
I think here particularly of the Conservatives' desire to cut back expenditure even further than the present Government have done. We wish to see a real alternative in Scotland, and we believe that it can come in an election, when the people of Scotland give a mandate to treat for independence and we can deal with our economic problems in our own way.
I turn specifically to the Budget. There is a desperate need for jobs in Scotland, as in many other areas of the United Kingdom. The Government's record in Scotland has been particularly disastrous, bearing in mind that for part of their period in office some areas were cushioned against the overall effects of Government policy by the fact that short-term jobs were available to many people in North-East Scotland, jobs connected with the oil industry in pipe-laying and general infrastructure work. Those jobs have gone.
We are now seeing the real effects of Government policies. Our unemployment is getting worse all the time. We want investment in long-term employment prospects. Emigration has been the curse of Scotland. Our young, best, talented people have invariably gone abroad to use the entrepreneurial skills which previous speakers have mentioned. Our young people are again being driven from our country to seek opportunities elsewhere. Entrepreneurs must be encouraged here.

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We find it upsetting that the VAT registration liability level was not raised from £5,000 to £15,000 of annual turnover. That would have done a great deal to help young people in Scotland who wish to set up businesses and expand there. We had also hoped to see an increase in the budget of the Scottish Development Agency, which we hope will attract industry to West-Central Scotland in particular and which has responsibility for environmental improvement.
That brings me to the question of inner city relief, to which the Chancellor referred. He said that we could expect a further statement fairly soon on what is to happen in Scotland. The £100 million being made available is small in relation to the overall problems of our inner cities, especially of Glasgow and Clydeside, where 97·5 per cent. of the worst areas of multiple deprivation are to be found. Multiple deprivation means that people do not have running water in their houses, that their houses are crowded, with no bathrooms and only outside toilets, and that there are rats running around the closes in Glasgow. The sum of £100 million is peanuts compared with what is needed for areas such as Glasgow and West-Central Scotland—and, no doubt, other cities such as Birmingham which suffer from similar difficulties.
In Glasgow we have had talk of the East End project. People in West-Central Scotland have so much confidence in what the Government are doing that they call it Turkish Delight—something that is full of promise but will not materialise.
We want a guarantee from the Government by Monday that a fairly substantial portion of the money will be spent in those areas of deprivation, a guarantee that we shall get rid of this sore in a civilised society. I had with me at the last General Election foreign journalists who said that they had never seen such conditions as those in Glasgow since they first saw the effects of napalm. I find it horrifying that anyone should come from abroad and say that about my country.
We should also like a guarantee that that spending will not adversely affect the new owns policy. The new towns are complementary to urban renewal in the
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inner cities. Here I endorse the views of the Town and Country Planning Association, which says:
"The New Towns programme is vital for dealing with inner city problems. To halt the new towns programme is to deny thousands of people the opportunity to move to better surroundings and to delay the improvement of environmental conditions in the older urban areas."
We in Scotland are particularly concerned because the Stonehouse new town project was recently cancelled, at substantial expense to the Government. With it there was the loss of attracting jobs to an area which desperately needs them in the provision of housing, with all the contribution that that would have made. The programme is complementary and should help the population in such areas if they have no alternative accommodation and job opportunities. Therefore, I trust that the £100 million will not be tawen away from the development of new towns.
We should like a guarantee that there will be no attempt to use for this purpose money from the European Regional Fund. There is a great suspicion in many areas that regional funds coming for the social programme in the United Kingdom are being used not in addition to Government expenditure but as an alternative to what the Government should be spending anyway. We want to be sure that the money is not just a replacement.
I return to the jobs issue. Many right hon. and hon. Members think that the whisky industry concerns only the North of Scotland. That is not so. Many jobs in the central belt of Scotland are tied up with the industry. In my constituency there are about six companies totally dependent on it for their survival. They are involved in such work as making bottle tops and labels, packaging, bottling, distribution and warehousing. All these jobs are terribly important, and hon. Members should not think when they are talking about whisky that they are talking only about the North-East with its beautiful distilleries. Anyone who goes on one of the Scottish Tourist Board's whisky tours knows that the central belt of Scotland is included in the industry as well.
We would like to see a reduction in excise duty and tax on whisky, and we want the Government to look at the

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whole question of how excise duty is raised. The six-month period is causing great cash flow problems to the industry, and that gives rise to great concern. The Scottish National Party was very glad that there was no increase in duty on whisky in the Budget, but the 31p increase in tax three months ago took the industry to its limit and a further increase would have been totally unacceptable.
The most controversial part of the Budget was, of course, the petrol tax. Most people seem to talk about this in the rural context, but it is not only rural constituencies that are affected. In areas such as East Dunbartonshire, which are commuter constituencies and in which public transport services leave a great deal to be desired, the vast majority of people use their cars to travel to work. This is absolutely essential and it will remain so until the Government do some-think wonderful to alter the ridiculous situation in which British Rail has fifth-hand rolling stock between my constituency and Glasgow. This breaks down frequently, so people prefer private cars because they then have a guarantee that they will get to work and back home again.
To many constituencies which are dependent upon retail and distribution industries, the petrol tax is unacceptable. This morning I noticed the disabled drivers lobbying us here at the House to see whether they could get exemption from the increase in petrol prices.
There was little real reference to education in the Budget, and that is not all that surprising. However, the provision to make money available to increase the number of mathematics and science teachers was very important and received a general welcome. We all appreciate that we must combat teacher unemployment and improve educational performance in areas that are crucial for manufacturing industry and technology. That is all very well, but it appears that this provision applies only to England and Wales. An extra 1,500 teachers a year will be provided in England and Wales.
I wonder whether the Chancellor can imagine the furore in Scotland today when people discovered that that provision was not to apply to Scotland. We have
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shortages of mathematics and science teachers, we have manufacturing industry and we want our technology to expand. Why are we being deprived? Only this week I visited the Notre Dame Teacher Training College in my constituency. It is the largest Roman Catholic teacher training college in Scotland. The point raised time and time again by lecturers there was that it was essential to ensure that there should be more mathematics and science teachers in order to get the kind of youngsters who could take up apprenticeships in the jobs that we all hope to see in Scotland—presumably when we get out of our present economic difficulties.
I read what the President of the Head Teachers' Association said last night when he found out about this Budget provision not applying to Scotland. As far as I know, he is not a member of the Scottish National Party. He said:
"It is typical of British administrators to forget that Scotland exists. Are we always to be trailing along as an afterthought?"
It is just as well that I am speaking on 31st March. Had it been tomorrow, I would have thought that this was an April Fool's trick being played on Scotland by the Treasury. Before we decide not to vote against the total Budget on Monday night, we must have a guarantee that something will be done about this situation to ensure that Scotland has mathematics and science teachers recruited on the same basis as south of the border.
All this has taken place against the background of the worst consultative document on Scottish education that we have seen, and morale is at an all-time low in educational circles. We are fed up with the situation.
Finally, the Government have made no statement at this stage about social benefits. I know that politicians are always regarded by the public as being rather cynical, and I must express my own cynicism now. I think that the Government have deliberately said nothing about benefits because they think that the Lib-Lab alliance will not last all that long and that there will be a General Election later in the year. They think that it would be rather nice to raise pensions and child benefits at that stage. I wonder whether the Government are keeping these benefits back as a carrot.

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One aspect that concerns me is the failure of the Government to say anything about the social implications of the Budget for one-parent families. Also, there is tremendous confusion about child benefits. I am heartily sick of seeing this scheme go backwards and forwards. At my surgeries in my constituency, people are always asking me what is happening to the scheme and what it means.
One-parent families are not being given the priority that they deserve. The Director of the National Council of One-Parent Families said last night:
"It is very sad for us to have to tell lone parents that they will only be £1·74 a week better off after receiving the new tax reliefs and claiming child benefit, but childless married couples will be 94p a week better off from extra tax relief alone."
The heads of one-parent families have enough deprivation to suffer. The Government are institutionalising that deprivation and doing very little to ensure that these people escape from the poverty trap.
Like the hon. Member for Thurrock (Dr. McDonald), I am disappointed that there is no tax exemption for widows, including war widows. We managed to harry the Government last year into giving a 50 per cent. exemption for war widows, and now there is all-party support for exemption of widows' pensions from taxation. In an answer from the Financial Secretary last week, he indicated that it would have cost £140 million to exempt widows' pensions from tax in 1976–77. If the Government can afford to hand out £2¼ billion in tax relief, they can surely consider allying with that the £140 million that would give social justice to these people.
Widows are becoming increasingly frustrated as they have all the responsibilities of heads of households yet they see married women without such responsibilities taking home more at the end of the week than they do. I hope that the Government will look again at this and show that they have principles in recognising the responsibilities of widows. I believe that politicians and Governments should be judged on moral and humanitarian grounds, and I do not see this Government getting a gold star in this respect.
The Scottish National Party warns the Government that it is looking very seriously
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at the overall implications of the Budget. Unless we can have guarantees on the various points that we have raised in this debate, we will seriously consider voting against the Government on the whole Budget and not only on specific items.
8.28 p.m.
Mr. Nigel Forman: I shall not follow the argument of the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mrs. Bain) on the Scottish aspects of the Budget. I want to leave enough time for the massed ranks of the Labour Party to squeeze into the debate on one of the major planks of Government strategy.
A few days ago, The Times described the Budget as a "nice little Budget". I would say that we have a nice little audience here tonight and that we might well consider co-opting a few people from the Public Gallery on to the Government Benches so as to give the House more of an impression of a full Chamber.
This Budget is the Chancellor's tenth economic package in three years. It has to be judged in the light of what the Government have done or have failed to do since March 1974, as well as in the light of the Chancellor's own criteria, set out in his Budget Statement. Clearly, he has had to err on the side of caution, because we still have an inflation rate of about 15 per cent. In addition, the Chancellor must act within the undertakings that he gave to the International Monetary Fund, which obliged him to keep the public sector borrowing requirement within the limit set in the Letter of Intent. We also have his need to negotiate some sort of phase 3 of the incomes policy. I suspect that any kind of deal at the end of the day will do, as long as the Government can call it "phase 3", and breath a sigh of relief.
But—perhaps most notable from the parliamentary point of view—we have yet another conditional Budget. It continues the tendency of events since the Government got into their difficulties. The Chancellor's two key aims are to reduce inflation to the level of that of our international competitors and to improve the performance of our manufacturing industry. But it is significant that there are two other aims which should have been in his Budget, which he did not mention but which the British people

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have a right to expect the Government to try to acheive.
The first aim is to reduce the burden of direct taxation. On this, too, The Times was right to point out that, on average, the Budget concessions will raise the purchasing power of incomes by the same amount as inflation has reduced them over the last 80 days.
The second aim that one would have liked to see in the Budget is a lower level of unemployment and a greater degree of genuine job security for those now lucky enough to be in work under Labour. The Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Employment claim to have created or maintained nearly 200,000 jobs which would not otherwise be in existence, but I fear that that is little more than the smile on the face of the clown, which, if peeled away, reveals the grim and miserable expression underneath. As has been said, there can be no possible chance of secure jobs unless we in this House, as politicians, give the utmost priority to wealth creation before wealth redistribution.
Taking these four yardsticks of the Budget, I want to look at each briefly in turn. As regards the international competitiveness of the country, it is noteworthy that the Chancellor forecasts single-figure inflation by the middle of 1978. But one presumes that that forecast is based on the premise of a pretty tight phase 3 of the incomes policy, which I do not believe will be possible. Worse still, even if this target is achieved, I think that it is all too likely that our inflation rate will still be out of line with that of our international competitors even in the summer of next year.
What a dismal record that will be to show for over four years of Labour Government, assuming that this band of brothers is able to hang together for that long. It will have meant four wasted years to get back to where they started—four years of hard labour, and a far cry from the slogan "Back to work with Labour", which now sounds so hollow.
One needs to stress the point that the Chancellor and his Budget are now secondary as influences upon the performance of manufacturing industry. We cannot pin our faith on the so-called industrial strategy, on which my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir
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K. Joseph) rightly poured so much scorn. We cannot depend on the worthy gentlemen who, as he said, beaver away in the 39 sector working parties within the NEDO framework. All that is useful, and we should let it continue, but let us not dupe ourselves into thinking that we are creating wealth thereby. We are creating "Neddy" reports and bumf. We need a sustained boost to the prospects and conditions of those concerned in the process of wealth creation, whether of goods or services.
One must include the service sector in this definition, as did the original article in The Sunday Times on this subject some time ago. The Budget has done, and is likely to do, precious little for the performance of British manufacturing industry.
Among the few measures that we can really welcome are those giving relief to small businesses. But even such measures are no substitute for the more suitable broad economic policies that would create the climate favourable to innovation and enterprise to which my hon. Friend the Member for Shoreham (Mr. Luce) referred earlier.
The third yardstick against which the Budget should be judged is the burden of direct taxation. I cannot go anywhere in my constituency without people gratuitously saying to me, and to politicians in general, that taxation is too high, has been too high, and must be brought down. It must be brought down for the individual taxpayer. The Healey Mark 4 Budget does nothing to reverse the cumulative damage created by the Healey Marks 1, 2 and 3 Budgets. It is no comfort for the Chancellor to say that things will now hurt less because he has stopped banging our heads against the wall and has decided to lay off a little. The Chancellor must not expect us to feel all that grateful.
After the Budget, we are still the highest directly taxed people in Western Europe, with the steepest progression of taxation in that category. He may have done enough to sweeten the negotiation of stage 3, but I suspect that he has not done enough to prevent people pricing themselves and others out of jobs and hastening bankruptcies at a rate greater than would have occurred otherwise. The Chancellor has certainly not done enough

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to restore the vital differential between those in work and those out of work. That is one of the differentials that matter. He has not done enough to provide talented people of all kinds with the incentive to go on working, and to go on working in this country.
The hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East referred to people in Scotland who are already voting with their feet and who have decided, because the prospects are not there, that they must look elsewhere. That is what happened in Scotland hundreds of years ago, and we are seeing it again under this Government. Under Socialism, too many people are forced to vote with their feet. One sees the process of internal as well as external emigration. Internal emigration means that someone no longer does his utmost in his job or tries to do his best, because he knows the rewards are not there for his effort.
The essential criterion should be lower unemployment and less underemployment. In the long term, the structural labour market problems matter most. The Budget has brought together little more than a set of palliatives and proposals to mitigate the effects of previous Government policies which stored up the problems.
I approve the special measures to help the disabled, and to help them obtain work. I approve the measures to train teachers in shortage subjects. If we cannot get more high quality teachers of maths and science, our technology and industry will suffer in future years.
The other employment measures—the temporary employment subsidy through 1977–1978, the special subsidy to manufacturing firms in special development areas and the experimental scheme to help the long-term unemployed—are no substitute for more ambitious training and retraining programmes, the revival of the economy on a sustained basis and other policies that would bring more flexibility and mobility to the labour market.
This is vitally important. Hon. Members know the importance of housing policy and other aspects of employment policy whereby the Government have diminished mobility when they should have increased it with measures to reduce
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rent control and measures on housing to facilitate the movement of people, and above all measures which would have been the opposite of Acts like the Employment Protection Act, which have ossified and stultified the labour market.
At the end of the Budget the Chancellor said:
"We cannot afford at this of all moments, when the rewards of our sacrifices are well within our grasp, to throw away what we have gained in those two years.—[Official Report, 29th March 1977; Vol. 929, c. 285.]
The Chancellor was referring to the past two years. What we have gained in the past two years seems pretty dubious to me and to other hon. Members, and if we asked those in the Public Gallery what they thought, they would echo that sentiment.
Prices are now rising at a faster annual rate than they were in 1974, and at roughly three times the rate in Western Germany. Unemployment is twice as high as when the Government took office and the underlying trends, despite the latest figures, still seem to be upward. The taxation system now catches within its grasp at the higher rates almost double the number of people that it did in 1974, and the present Budget will have only a marginal and temporary effect on that. The index of industrial production is scarcely higher than it was a few years ago and the index of real incomes is definitely lower.
If that is the measure of what we have all gained, and what the unfortunate British public has been blessed with under Labour, the people of Stechford tonight and of the country as a whole in the near future will be right to throw it all away and trade it in for a commonsense Conservative Government who will get back to governing the country on a commonsense basis with commonsense policies.
8.43 p.m.
Mr. Kenneth Clarke: I am delighted to follow the excellent and very erudite analysis of the Budget by my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Forman), without the intervention of any speaker from the Labour Benches. That is because those Benches are bare, and have been completely deserted throughout the majority of the third day of the Budget debate.

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It is interesting to see the reaction of the Parliamentary Labour Party to the Budget. It is supposed to have shown some resignation and acceptance of the package in a meeting upstairs, but we have had few speakers from the Parliamentary Labour Party, and all of those have been very hostile to their Government's package. The only defence of the Budget package and the Government's economic record has come from the rather lack-lustre performance of the Secretary of State for Employment, who opened the debate.
One wonders where the Members of the Parliamentary Labour Party are. One suspects that they have gone to Stechford, every one of them, to remedy the consequences of the Budget. We understand that there was considerable disappointment in Transport House when the package was announced, because the Stechford by-election was fixed for two days after the Budget and this was not the kind of Budget that Transport House wanted. I am not surprised that Transport House has sent most of its members to Birmingham, because if there is a verdict against the Government tonight the final straw for the electors in England's motor city will have been the Budget's attack on the motorist and the motor industry.
This Budget has not turned out to be an electioneering Budget in any sense, but their expectation shed some light on Labour movement attitudes towards the Government's position. If Transport House and Labour Members both below and above the Gangway imagined that this would be an electioneering Budget they failed to realise how seriously boxed in and restrained the Government have become; they failed to realise, too, how much the Government's failure of the last three years has left no real room for manoeuvre, except within the strict and cautious guidelines set down by the IMF after November's rescue operation.
It is not the reaction of the Labour Party in or out of this House that interests me, however; it is the reaction of the business and industrial community to the Budget, and the effect of the Budget on the life of that sector. I think that the reaction of the industrial community will be to latch upon such comfort as the Chancellor was able to give. In one of his least optimistic predictions the
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right hon. Gentleman summed up his Budget by saying that the worst was past.
The industrial community will only echo that comment and hope that it is true. It will turn to such consolation as there is and welcome, no doubt, the modest reliefs in personal taxation, which almost compensate for the likely level of inflation over the next 12 months. Basically, however, it will simply hope that the worst is past. I believe that it will feel that this Budget and the Government's industrial strategy, their anti-unemployment measures, their social contract, or whatever other slogan they use to describe their policy, will have little to do with industrial revival over the next two or three years.
I am sure that any business man or industrialist will be glad to hear the apparent acceptance on all sides of the House of the view that the future of the country depends on the revival of industry. It depends on increasing production to levels that may be sustained because we have made our economy competitive. By being more competitive, industry can achieve higher output based on higher productivity, and ultimately by reviving our industry we may pay ourselves the high incomes and achieve the high living standards that we would all wish.
At the moment that seems a long way off. The best that can be said is that the Chancellor may be right when he says that we are through the worst. It is important to bring home to industrialists not only that we all emphasise the importance of industrial revival but that we realise how grave the present position is and how far we have to go before we can hope to see anything of the kind.
The position of British industry after three years of Labour Government is very grave indeed. Take, for example, the levels of investment that have prevailed and still prevail in industry. We are glad to see that at the end of last year they were rising, but for last year as a whole they fell. Capital investment by manufacturing industry fell in 1976 by 7 per cent.
Everyone now expects and hopes for some improvement over the next year, but the Government's estimate in the Financial Statement and Budget Report, that there will be a 17½ per cent. increase in investment, may prove to be another

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of those optimistic forecasts. Even if that increase is achieved it will only take investment in this country back to the levels of 1970.
Let us now look at the cash flow problems of British industry. For many businesses they are very severe. The rate of bankruptcies is unlikely to abate much in the foreseeable future. On 29th March the Financial Times analysed the latest figures, indicating the serious financial position of industry and commerce. The financial deficits of industrial and commercial companies for the full year 1976 are now estimated to be £775 million.
Any upturn compared with the situation in 1976—and that is the pattern in the economy that the Government are looking for—will require companies to go in for stock building and a higher level of capital spending, and they will face that situation needing to raise finance at a time of heavy financial deficits.
The serious factor is the levels of production that British industry is achieving. Everyone realises that production is well below the country's productive capacity. All estimates put it at well over 10 per cent. below capacity. Production is almost stagnant. Under this Government, industrial production has barely exceeded—at times it has dropped below—the levels of production at the time of the three-day working week, the worst few weeks of the last Conservative Government.
It is estimated that industrial output increased last year by about only 2 per cent. The worst lack of use of our productive capacity reveals itself in the horrific figures of unemployment over which this Government so complacently preside. How quickly is that likely to be dispelled? According to the forecasts and the Budget Statement, it appears that the estimated increase in GDP next year is 1½ per cent., and in the case of manufacturing output the Government are expecting an increase of 2½ per cent. At least, those modest forecasts are some sign of reality at last in the kind of forecasts the Treasury is putting out.
Last year's White Paper on Public Expenditure set out forecasts based on a
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growth rate of 8½ per cent. for each year up to 1979, and they were not long ago abandoned. But, given these new modest estimates, what do they really mean for the dole queues over which the Secretary of State for Employment so complacently presides? These modest forecasts are worrying for the level of unemployment in this country. The levels now forecast in the Red Book for the increase in manufacturing ouput over the next year are not enough to lower our present levels of unemployment, and barely adequate to keep unemployment down to its present level.
Any increases in productivity achieved on these levels of production—we all agree that we need increased productivity—will lead in the short term to an increase in unemployment. If the one unknown factor in the whole judgment goes wrong and there is failure to get a further acceptable phase of pay restraint, and if a pay explosion occurs in a year of tight monetary policy, which the Government are forecasting, the levels of unemployment produced will be absolutely catastrophic.
Given that the one factor we are in the dark about is how the pay negotiations will go, all those thinking about where we might get to if that went wrong should consider what my right hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr. Walker) said. He carefully analysed the serious difficulties facing the negotiation of a phase 3 pay policy by any Government, but, in addition, he indicated firmly how the difficulties were created by the mismanagement by this Government of the first two phases of the pay policy.
The Government have had two levels of flat-rate oriented pay policy, dictated largely by one union, the T & GWU, at the end of which they have achieved nothing. They have achieved restraint from the working population—and then, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) explained in his speech yesterday, that restraint on the part of the working population has been dissipated and wasted by the profligate overspending of this Government. Thus, after two years of pay restraint inflation is still rising, living standards are still falling and the Government have not achieved what they promised they could achieve by pay restraint.

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In negotiating now, the Government are facing considerable anger about the form and consequences of their pay policies. I agree with my right hon. Friend that it is not only the toolmakers of British Leyland who feel that their differentials have been eroded and destroyed, or the striking electricians at Port Talbot, now. It is not possible to go into an engineering factory in the kingdom and find skilled men who are not furious about the form of pay policy that has been imposed on them.
Unskilled workers are angry, too, because of the slight difference they see between their level of pay for less skilled work and the level of benefit that can be achieved outside work. We do not yet know what the effect of the Budget and the Government's economic judgments will be on the tiny level of incentive for some of the low-paid in work who are paying tax, as compared with the level available to those on benefit.
The mood of the shop floor in industry, let alone the mood of trade union leaders, is most unhelpful to a further discussion of pay policy. The main fault for that lies in the way in which the Government have handled the first two phases and the way in which they have wasted the opportunities that those two phases might otherwise have given. What is the Government's answer to all this?
This side of the House will not obstruct the negotiation of further interim pay restraint. What is the overall reaction of the Government? The whole picture that I have given of British industry is that there is great spare capacity, stagnant levels of production and a low level of investment and that firms are short of money. Even if the Budget judgment succeeds, and pay restraint is achieved there is a limited and gloomy prospect for the next year. The Government's reaction to unemployment is complacent, as some of my hon. and right hon. Friends have said. The Secretary of State for Employment has produced a patchwork of measures for short-term relief of unemployment. He believes that it is the duty of his Department to work hard to try to cure the symptoms of the disease even if they have not much relevance to the actual cause.
The Government's answer is to quote the industrial strategy, and in these
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debates all Ministers have felt it their duty to make occasional references to this strategy and to emphasise how the Budget fits within it. We expected, before a last-minute change of cast was agreed at this morning's Cabinet, that the Secretary of State for Industry would open the debate and attempt to give a fuller and clearer explanation of the industrial strategy. Instead, the Secretary of State for Employment was provided with a few useless paragraphs reiterating the Press releases on this subject. It would have been helpful if the Secretary of State for Industry had tried to give some clarity to this concept of the industrial strategy, which becomes cloudy in most ministerial statements.
We can certainly recognise that the strategy is a slogan, but trying to discover the reality is like trying to get hold of a slippery eel. The Government's strategy is vague and the short-term tactics in the Budget are clearly damaging for key sectors of industry.
The first and most obvious sector is the motor vehicle industry, which will feel grave consequences from the Budget. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Solihull (Mr. Grieve) spelt out the consequences for the West Midlands. I have no doubt that the Minister will find that my judgment is the same as that formed by a significant proportion of those who work in the motor car industry in Stechford. The industry is a particularly bad one to single out for adverse treatment because the root of its difficulties in the past has laid partly in the fact that it was the victim of stop-go policies and of a too selective use of controls. When hire purchase was used as a regulator, the motor car industry was adversely affected.
Now, in order to cover income tax concessions, the Government have decided to raise petrol tax and vehicle excise duty. Many speakers have emphasised the effect of this on the motorist. I listened to the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Hoyle) and the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) when they indicated their fierce opposition to the increased level of tax on petrol. We await with interest to see whether they will vote with us on Monday, as we also wait to see whether any of the Government's other allies will vote with us on a principle that all of

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them are agreed is a grave error of judgment—that is, the raising of the price of petrol by 5½p.
The effect on motorists, particularly in rural areas, will be grave, but the effect on the car industry will hardly be helpful either. There is a curious contrast between the amount of public money that the Government are putting into the car industry in an attempt to sustain major firms and the increase in the vehicle excise duty, which can have only the effect of discouraging car ownership.
In previous years, the Government have been deterred from raising petrol prices because they have said that it would increase the imports of economy sized cars, in the production of which our foreign competitors are particularly strong. I do not see what has happened to the British motor industry in the past year to alter that judgment. What are we to make of that argument now? Will it turn out, as we were warned in the past, that such changes will be good news in Tokyo but not such good news in Stechford? It is wrong to single out the motor industry in this way.
The construction industry has been mentioned by, among others, the hon. Member for Walton, who is well acquainted with the serious difficulties facing the industry. The £100 million inner city programme has been effectively derided by Labour Members from Liverpool and by my right hon. Friend the Member for Worcester, who takes a special interest in this subject. It will not do much for the inner cities, and it is misleading for the Chancellor to hold out the programme as a significant contribution towards helping the industry's problems. It will be no consolation to the industry when set against the Government's decision, at the start of their cuts in public expenditure, to concentrate on cutting capital programmes in order to avoid cutting their revenue expenditure. That has borne particularly heavily on the construction industry and has put it in a grave crisis, which the Budget has done nothing to help.
My hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Mitchell) drew attention to an especially worrying aspect of this mini-package. It covers only five major cities, and the local authorities
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will obviously be involved. It seems likely that a proportion of the £100 million will be used to support the direct labour departments of the five biggest cities. That will be no contribution to the private construction industry, which has been so badly damaged by the Government.
We welcome the easing of the corporation tax burden on small firms, but it is hardly likely to lead to the dramatic revival of the small business sector which is an essential feature of any revival for the country. All we are seeing from the Government in what they have done for small businesses and the self-employed is a slight mellowing of the unremitting hostility that they have shown to this section of industry in the past three years. It does not make up for the neglect of the small business sector by the Government or the lack of any real policy to stimulate it.
My hon. Friend the Member for Shoreham (Mr. Luce) dealt more directly with the problems and indicated how small business men would be aided by a programme that included one rate of VAT—raised to 10 per cent., if necessary, in order to cover the revenue that we would not take from the motorist—a simplification of the collection of VAT, an increase in the level at which it starts to be collected, and the tackling of complications in this tax, which is a useful source of revenue but has caused problems for small business men. That would be a far more constructive approach to the problems of small business men.
However, those sectors are not in the Government's industrial strategy. The Minister will say that I have chosen unfavourable examples and will make one or two references to the strategy as a whole. The work of the strategy is contained in the NEDC and the sector working parties set up by the Government. My hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton showed a healthy scepticism about the work of the NEDC, but no one derides the good intentions and hard work going into consultation at NEDC level.
I have met many people in industry and business who have put considerable effort into that exercise and who hope that something useful will come out of it. Contacts between the Government, civil servants, business and trade unions

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must be of value, and I hope that one of the most valuable results of such contacts will be that they will bring home to the Government, at first hand, the need for planning agreements and contact trialists some hope that the Government might begin to appreciate the impact of what they have done or intend to do.
Although those contacts are valuable, no decisions can be taken by the NEDC or by the sectoral working parties. Ministers seem reluctant to acknowledge that these discussions will not be turned into decisions because decisions are not taken in industry at sectoral level. It is at individual company level that anything is changed in British industry. Speeches of Ministers at the Department of Industry on the industrial strategy try to draw in individual companies by stressing the need planning agreements and contact with sectoral working parties.
I hope that we shall hear about planning agreements from the Minister when he replies. In the corresponding debate last year, the Secretary of State for Industry emphasised the value of planning agreements. However, he said that he thought the forecast of 100 planning agreements being entered into over the coming year was perhaps a little far-reaching and that in fairness he should tell his hon. Friends to expect somewhat fewer than that.
Since then, precisely one planning agreement has been entered into. Which firm came out of the free enterprise world freely to enter into a fresh, new agreement of its own with the Government? It was Chrysler United Kingdom. The company has been trying to explain why it did slightly worse financially during the first year of Government assistance than it forecast when it received the assistance.
The contents of that planning agreement were leaked fairly heavily to the Press. That experience will only underline to many companies the dangers that they fear of breaches of confidentiality through planning agreements. If they enter into them as the Government wish, they fear that they will be used for the purpose that the Ministers who formulated them always wanted. They fear that agreements will bring them far too close to the arms of a Government that will be Socialist again when they have the opportunity.
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Another part of the industrial strategy dealing with individual companies is the National Enterprise Board, which continues its activities. It is trying to pick winners, and we are assured that it will help in the revival of British industry. Some of us are accused of being too doctrinaire about the future of the NEB, but we have always conceded that the Government need a holding company of some sort to hold the many companies that have now come into public ownership. Our objection to the NEB has clearly been based on what the NEB is doing, has been doing and intends to do with public funds. Its principal duty continues to be the extension of public ownership.
I am not quite sure about the nature of the Liberals' reaction to the activities of the NEB. I expect them to join us in welcoming the announcement that the Government intend to sell their shares in BP and thereby recover £500 million. However, while that is being announced the NEB is maintaining its activities. It is saddled with some of the wounded eagles of industry such as British Leyland and Alfred Herbert. It is acquiring a wide-ranging portfolio of other companies in a rather far-reaching range of activities. In investing public money, it is said to be picking winners. It is extending the range of public ownership in an arbitrary fashion, in a way that is almost completely unanswerable to the House.
What is the Liberals' reaction? If they are trying to restrain the Government from extending public ownership, certainly they have put forward no answer this evening. Why, in their opinion, is Lord Ryder using taxpayers' money to buy Thwaites & Reed? The week before the Budget, this newly-restrained Government dragged into public ownership an ailing clock company. What was the purpose of that? How did that fit into the industrial strategy?
Mr. A. P. Costain: They were buying time.
Mr. Clarke: In the heady days of Socialism after the war, people were inspired by talk of the people's coal, but it is the people's grandfather clock that is coming into production in 1977.
Public ownership is being extended into small firms quite arbitrarily. What is

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the purpose of this within the industrial strategy? Why is public money being used in that way by a Government who claim that they are suddenly beginning to achieve some restraint in their level of public spending?
Quite apart from the NEB, it is their investment in private industry in terms of their industrial strategy of which the Government are most proud. They are using public funds through the Industry Acts on a considerable scale in an attempt to stimulate the investment that is otherwise not taking place in British industry. Of course, we all welcome in principle the recognition of the need for some investment in British industry, but we question both the method by which the Government are putting it in and precisely the way that the Government approach the whole problem of investment in industry. Although investment is clearly needed, it is no good saying that every industry should have investment for its own sake or that the problems of every industry can be cured simply by producing investment.
One sometimes thinks that the main purpose of industrial strategy is to produce good figures of investment for Ministers to reel out in their public statements. Before becoming a Minister, the Under-Secretary of State for Industry, the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer), used to make very wide-ranging and entertaining speeches, but his public hand-outs now make him sound like a walking cash register as he gives out statements about how much each industrial sector has now got through each industrial scheme under the Industry Act.
However, the problems of some indusries cannot be cured by investment. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, West (Sir J. Eden) emphasised, one of the things that we need is to make better and more productive use of what we already have invested in industry and to tackle problems of overmanning. If the Government do not accept that from my right hon. Friend, they should look at Alfred Herbert, now firmly in public ownership, where the management is not accepting public money that could be on offer for investment because in its opinion the first problems of Alfred Herbert are better management and
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better use of the resources that it has. The firm will not go into an investment programme until it has got over other fundamental problems.
When we have industries or companies that do want more investment, the whole object is increased productivity and not just investment for its own sake. The only point of investment is reorganisation or modernisation—an industry with more output than can be produced for the same cost. It is certainly not to support the declining industries. I should have thought that there was a need to emphasise to the Labour movement and the Labour Party that that is certainly not the point of Industry Act funds, because the pressure pours in on their Government from Labour Members who are constantly looking for the use of industrial strategy and Industry Act funds to protect ailing industries.
There are other things wrong with the Industry Act priorities at present. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen) said, these are far too much oriented towards manufacturing industry. This bias in favour of manufacturing industry is certainly firmly held by the present Government, but it is not in the long-term interests of this country if it is pursued at the expense of the service and distributive industries—commerce generally—on which the future of this country will probably largely depend.
However, let us deal basically—as I hope the Minister will—with the use of Industry Act funds on the scale of last year—a scale very much emphasised by my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West, with his keen eye for public spending of all kinds. A great deal of the selective financial assistance under the Industry Act has to be given by way of interest relief grants. As their name implies, one of the principal reasons for the size of these grants is to give relief against interest rates that have been driven up by the present Government's own management of the economy.
Interest rates soared to catastrophic levels in the autumn because of the Government's financing of their own overspending and their own deficit outside the banking sector. Therefore, large interest relief grants are given by the Department of Industry to would-be investors against

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the rates of interest that have been created by the Treasury and the rest of the present Government.
Then, quite apart from the form that the grants take, a great deal of the money is going to contribute to investment in projects that would have gone ahead in any event, supported by the markets without any recourse to public funds. There is no doubt at all that the Government are not in any way ensuring that a great deal of the money is not simply going to give public support to projects that would have been financed anyway.
Also, sometimes when the Government try to extend the range of money available, so non-selective have they been and so far have they failed to understand what the problem of investment concerns that, they have even offered money to some firms that do not want to take it up. The machine tool industry scheme was an absolute fiasco, until December 1976. It was offered to the industry on terms that no one could be induced to take up.
I should have thought that the Government, in analysing the schemes, might in the end have realised that simply injecting public money or offering it so generously was not proving to be a proper cure for the low level of investment in British industry.
The significant thing otherwise about the large amounts that are going in is that last year, at a time when all this public money was on offer to companies, being injected into all these sectoral industry schemes, the total level of investment in industry as a whole declined. It declined although there was no shortage of money available in the market for investment in industry. Although it was available at a price, there was a distinct shortage of manufacturers and industrialists willing to put their money into projects and to look for investment of any kind.
The Government's reaction, in their industrial strategy and their use of Industry Act funds, was rather like that of a vet trying to force-feed an animal that has lost its appetite. The owner of the animal might ask that the cause of the sickness that led to the loss of appetite should be looked for rather than that attempts should be made to cram more and more unwanted nourishment down the poor beast's throat. The Government were trying to cram public funds into
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investment in industry when the real problem was that many industrialists were reluctant to invest. The low upturn in investment that we now see gives the cost.
This has nothing to do with any wicked capitalist plot against the objects of the Tribune Group—I gesture yet again to the empty Labour Benches—or any deliberate refusal to invest for obstinate non-Socialist reasons. Investment will come, first, only when there are seen to be some sound market prospects and prospects of an upturn in the world economy and, second—most important for this Government to adjust to—when there is some profitability in British industry and some likelihood of a real return on investment.
That matters far more than the availability of funds under the Industry Act or any advice from sectoral working parties. The level of return on investment in this country has fallen to pathetically low levels; that, more than any other reason, is the explanation of the pathetically low level of investment which we have begun to achieve as well.
Some Government must achieve the difficult shift in our use of resources from consumption to profits, so as to stimulate investment. Not only must they enable profits to be produced; they must allow the investor to enjoy the results of those profits and allow distribution to get under way again. Where is that provided for in the Budget? Fundamentally more important than any waffle about the industrial strategy is the need to revive profitability, to encourage investors by allowing the distribution of profits that can be gained in industry.
The Government have made some changes in the investment income surcharge, for example. They have had the effect of taking it back to the money levels that applied before they themselves brought down the threshold for the surcharge. The overall effect is that this Government have raised the punitive levels of tax on income from investment. We got strong support in that from, of all quarters, the hon. Member for Blyth (Mr. Ryman), who denounced his own Ministers for the discriminatory levels of tax on investment.
When one looks not only at the distribution of profits but at the generation of profits by industry, and when the

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Government assert that they are now adopting an approach based on profit-earning in industry, one can only contrast that with what is being done by the Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection in retaining price controls on British industry.
A new system of price controls is to come in later this year, and the Secretary of State has tried to reassure the world that the encouragement of investment is an essential part of his new policy. But the reaction of industry has confirmed that the uncertainties, unreliabilities and discriminatory nature of the price controls proposed do anything but encourage the likelihood of proper levels of profitability being achieved and give no one a secure feeling that they can achieve those levels.
The sayings of the Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection do not suggest that the speeches are being made by a man who has learned any lessons, but in that area and in many others, when one considers the key question of profitability and the distribution of profits, it is not only the Secretary of State who has not learned any lessons; there are endless fields in which the actions of Government themselves are cuting across profits in industry, the distribution of profits and, therefore, the generation of investment that they claim is one of their prime aims.
The Government themselves, financing their own deficit outside the banking sector and competing for funds, are crowding out the possibility of private industry raising funds itself. Interest rates, to which I have already referred, have been driven up to ruinous levels by the Government. The whole of the Government's approach to enterprise, profits and the distribution of the rewards of those profits has the effect of crushing the industrial activity and investment which the so-called industrial strategy should promote.
It is for that reason that there remains one further great and final lack in British industry, and that is confidence. Despite the speeches about the industrial strategy and Ministers' speeches about their new deal for business and industry, industry does not have a great deal of confidence in the performance of the Government.
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It is confidence which above all is needed to stimulate investors and industrialists to begin to regenerate our industry.
What is really needed is that those in industry should have confidence that the Government will deliver their side of any bargain entered into during the industrial strategy. The main Government contribution of any policy must be to undertake to manage their own affairs, their own spending and the economic affairs of the nation. They must begin to contain inflation, to exhibit a genuine commitment to profitability and a genuine commitment to a strong private sector, which Ministers have only begun to support in their speeches in comparatively recent months. Too often, however, their speeches are belied by their actions.
What is needed is confidence in a Government who really believe that their duty is to give an atmosphere of incentive and fair rewards to responsible, skilled, hardworking people in industry and to entrepreneurs who take commercial risks. We need a Government who believe that their duty is to promote an atmosphere to encourage such people. I do not believe that this Budget, welcome though the cuts in personal taxation are, really gives anyone confidence in the Government's commitment to a strong private sector or confidence that they are really supporting industry in its recovery. I trust that it does not have the confidence of this House.
The Government retain the confidence of this House only because 13 frightened men do not wish to expose them to the electorate outside. It will be interesting to see what those 13 frightened men do at the end on Monday. We have staggered on for a fortnight to a situation where it appears that they agree with us on all controversial measures and can rapidly be persuaded to vote with us on these issues, but they will vote with the Government only when any question of a General Election comes round. That strange arrangement ought not to continue. The arrangement which should result is not defeat on petrol taxation. It has to do with far more important things, and that is to defeat a Government who can never carry a genuine conviction in their ability and inclination to revive industry and who ought to make way for a Government who can inspire genuine

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confidence in industrial issues and begin the long, steady haul to levels of decent economic activity in this country.
9.24 p.m.
The Minister of State, Treasury (Mr. Denzil Davies): We have had an interesting debate and interesting contributions, especially from the Opposition Front Bench. The first Opposition speaker represented the Friedmanite wing of the Conservative Party and gave us a classical monetarist approach to our problem. The debate was wound up for the Opposition by the Keynesian wing of the Conservative Party. What we did not find out and shall not find out is whether the Conservative Party in general, and the Front Bench in particular, finds it desirable to have an incomes policy. The Friedmanite wing did not say anything about that at all. The hon. Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke), on the other hand, seemed to indicate that he liked incomes policies, but not this one. Perhaps the new Conservative tactic is that incomes policies are all right and that the problem arises not because of any particular problem arising from an incomes policy but because of the misdeeds of the Government. Be that as it may.
I turn to some of the points raised in the debate. Most of them were raised by my hon. Friends who, unfortunately, will have to read my reply in Hansard tomorrow. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer), who has apologised for not being able to be here, raised the difficult problem of the inner cities and the £100 million to be spent to try to assist them. Other hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Scotland Exchange (Mr. Parry), also raised that matter. They said that £100 million was not a great deal of money, and no one would deny that. But we must look at the matter in the context of the problems of the inner cities, which cannot entirely be solved by the application of money.
I do not know why the inner cities are deteriorating. There are probably many factors. Redevelopment plans may have been to blame. Perhaps some of our housing policies are to blame. Perhaps rents for small businesses have been too high. There are probably numerous reasons why not only in this country but throughout Western industrialised society
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the inner cities are declining. We all wish to do everything we can to reverse the trend. I do not know whether it is possible, but at least the provision of the money is a start to try to improve the environment in certain areas and to reverse that trend.
My hon. Friend the Member for Walton also said that we should not try to shift the burden of taxation from direct to indirect taxes. He said that that was not a Socialist thing to do. Most of us on the Labour Benches have more or less accepted that indirect taxes are more regressive than direct taxes, but we are in a new situation. Direct taxes are now impinging on people at very low levels of income—people who in the past paid no tax.
It is probably better now to talk about a fair system of taxation, looking at direct taxation and indirect taxation together. We have tried in the Budget to create a fairer system by engineering a small shift away from the burden of direct taxes towards indirect taxes.
In a very interesting speech, my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Dr. McDonald) raised a number of points that I should not go into now as she is not present, but there was one point of general relevance. My hon. Friend rightly complained, as other hon. Members have, that we were not able to raise thresholds high enough to benefit the people at the bottom, especially widows. The hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mrs. Bain) made the same point. The answer is that we have not been able to do it because we do not have enough money. If we had enough money to reduce taxation further, obviously one of the priorities would be to try to raise the thresholds to a level where people with low incomes pay no tax. But I ask hon. Members to recognise that if one raises the thresholds one not only benefits those at the bottom of the scale but, because of the whole structure of our tax system, give substantial benefits to those at the top end of the tax bracket.
It was felt that in this Budget it was fairer to try to spread the amount of money available through the whole of the direct tax system and produce a slightly better, more progressive curve than to give all the benefit at the top and the bottom. However, I recognise that we have not been able to do as much as

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we could have in increasing the thresholds.
Perhaps I may correct my hon. Friend the Member for Blyth (Mr. Ryman) on one of a number of points that he made. He said that he did not want the tax on unearned income, as it used to be called, to be at a different rate from that on earned income. The first £1,500 of investment income is not now taxed at a different rate from so-called earned income, and for people aged over 65 the limit is £2,000. Although we have not gone the whole way, at least the lower levels of investment income are not taxed at a different rate. Incidentally, I do not know what sum of capital would be needed to produce £1,500. That would depend on circumstances.
The hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East asked about the provision of extra money to train mathematics and science teachers in Scotland. I believe that in Scotland the position with regard to money will be exactly the same as in England and Wales. The only difference is that a special scheme will have to be worked out, but the allocation of schemes will be treated exactly the same as in England and Wales. The only reason why Scotland appears to have been excluded is that we have to have a different system in Scotland for ensuring the provision of the money.
Perhaps I may turn now to one aspect of the Budget that is of interest to hon. Members—especially the Friedmanite wing of the Tory Party, which is fairly well represented in the debate tonight. I apologise to the House if this is dry and boring, but I should say something about monetary policy, because this is an important factor in trying to curb our rate of inflation. My hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. Hoyle) said that wages were not the only factor causing inflation. He is right. Wages, interest rates and exchange rates are all factors that come into the picture and can help to cause higher rates of inflation.
One of the objectives of the Budget—it has succeeded already—is to build up on the December measures and ensure that there is greater stability in the financial markets. One of the main indicators that the Government have to build on is the public sector borrowing requirement,
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because this is the factor that is taken into account by the financial markets in determining the rates of interest.
There is no doubt that fear about the size of the public sector borrowing requirement last year was one reason for instability in the financial markets and the consequent fall in the exchange rate and the inevitable rise in the rate of inflation. That is why a phased reduction of the PSBR this year and next year formed a critical element in the December measures. It was essential to reduce the PSBR in order to create conditions in which it was possible to control the monetary aggregates while reducing interest rates from the exceptionally high levels of last autumn.
This strategy has been very successful. We have seen interest rates going down very rapidly in the last 48 hours, and I am sure that hon. Gentlemen opposite who are very concerned about small businesses and the construction industry would be the first to admit that the best action that any Government could have taken to assist these industries was to ensure that interest rates came down. This we are achieving. I hear mutterings from the Opposition Front Bench. I do not know whether hon. Members are happy about the falling interest rates, but I assure them that industry is.
Mr. David Howell: I was merely asking the Minister whether the rates were coming down any further.
Mr. Davies: The hon. Member should not be so impatient. He has seen what has happened over the past few days and he should welcome it. Instead, he wants more and more and more.
A few hon. Members raised the problem of monetary control. We are determined to keep domestic credit expansion safely within the £7·7 billion set in December. Our aims for the monetary aggregates are now expressed primarily in terms of DCE rather than growth in the money stock, because this is more appropriate when a major objective of economic policy is to secure an improvement in our balance of payments.
One of the characterisics of the money stock is that it contracts when there is a current account deficit on the balance of payments, because the various measures acting on money stock include only bank

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deposits held by United Kingdom residents. A current account deficit generally leads to a reduction in the bank deposits of United Kingdom residents because they are transferred to non-residents or to the Government. A monetary objective expressed in terms of the growth of the money stock could be met not by a firm control of domestic credit but by a higher-than-expected balance of payments deficit—an unsatisfactory outcome, since it would give a false impression of the real state of the economy. The rate of DCE, on the other hand, is, broadly speaking, not reduced in this way by an external deficit.
That is why monetary aggregates are specifically expressed in DCE terms. But that does not mean that the growth of money stock is unimportant. We are now expecting a modest current account surplus on the balance of payments over 1977–78 as a whole, and it is particularly important that as the balance of payments moves further into surplus the rate of DCE does not imply an unduly rapid growth of the money stock, which could, in turn, fuel future inflation. This answers the point of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen).
We shall therefore be keeping an extremely close watch on the development of money stock. As my right hon. Friend said, we expect the growth of sterling M3, consistent with domestic credit expansion, to be safely within the limit of £7·7 billion, in the range 9 per cent. to 13 per cent., given our present view of the outlook for the balance of payments.
Sir. K Joseph: These are welcome words. Why, therefore, is the Chancellor allowing for an increase in the M3 bracket for the year 1978–79? He is postulating about a 9 per cent. increase during the coming year, but is allowing for a 13 per cent. increase in the year after.
Mr. Davies: There is no increase in the bracket which was the same last year. It appeared, before the end of the last financial year, that the growth of money stock may have been slightly under 9 per cent. The bracket is the same for this coming year as it was last year.
If the growth of the monetary aggregates is to be controlled in this way while allowing sufficient room for the financing of industrial expansion, the Government
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will again need to finance a significant part of the public sector borrowing requirement by the sales of debt to the private sector outside the banking system, although not necessarily on the record scale of 1976·77. This meets the point put by the hon. Member for Rushcliffe, the Keynesian representative of the Conservative Party, whose Friedmanite representatives shook their heads.
Well over half the 1976·77 public sector borrowing requirement was covered by gilt-edged sales alone, and probably about three-quarters was met by sales of all forms of public sector debt. A significant start has already been made with the funding for next year, with the full subscription of last week's £800 million stock, most of the payments for which will fall in the 1977–78 financial year.
The Government's success in selling gilt-edged stock in recent months shows that the conventional forms of Government securities are not as ill-suited to the task of funding as some commentators would have us believe. We think that for the future the bulk of gilt sales will continue to be in such conventional forms. However, there may be market conditions in which there would be advantage in adding to the range of securities available to investors by issuing Government bonds at a rate of interest that is not fixed at the outset but varies over its life—for example, in relation to the Treasury Bill rate.
The Government have therefore decided to take certain preparatory steps to facilitate the issue of such bonds if and when it is considered that there would be advantage in doing so. I therefore announced, in reply to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Thornaby (Mr. Wrigglesworth) earlier today, that the Government would be initiating certain preliminary steps. The Bank of England will be having discussions with the Stock Exchange on certain technical details which must be agreed before an issue can be made. Statutory Instruments will shortly be laid before the House extending the powers of investment of trustees and of building societies so that they cover such bonds if they are issued.
As I said earlier, we are determined that the growth of the monetary aggregates should be achieved in a way that

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allows for adequate provision for the finance of the essential needs of industry, both in terms of the availability of such finance and its cost. As far as availability is concerned, the present evidence is that although the DCE limit for 1976–77 will have been met with a very considerable margin this was not at the cost of industry's ability to obtain funds.
I turn now to the problems and difficulties that arise in estimating the public sector borrowing requirement, because, clearly, as everyone appreciates, this is an important figure. On the other hand, I do not think that the Government should hide behind the fact that it is sometimes difficult, in the short term, to estimate precisely what the figure is likely to be. The public sector borrowing requirement is the difference between two very large figures—total public sector expenditure including lending, on the one hand, and total public sector income on the other—each of the order of £60,000 million. The main difficulties in estimating the requirement arise because of changes in prices, interest rates, exchange rates, and so forth.
In the case of local authorities, even knowledge of the financial transactions is available only piecemeal and with very considerable delay. The first information available is of their borrowing from the Public Works Loan Board. If it were possible to assume that their borrowing from the market was fairly stable, deductions could be drawn from this about their total borrowing, or, if it could be assumed that their total borrowing was fairly stable, deductions could be drawn about their borrowing from the market. It is, unfortunately, always very dangerous to assume either of these conditions. Actual information about local authority borrowing from the market is available only for quarterly periods, and with a delay of about two months, so that figures for the January to March quarter, for example, will not be available until early June. A monthly sample inquiry has recently been started, and this should be very helpful in time, but the interpretation of the first results is bound to be difficult.
There are somewhat similar difficulties with borrowing by nationalised industries and other public corporations,
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although in their case rather firmer early estimates are possible of their actual borrowing as compared to local authorities.
There are difficulties in forecasting the public sector borrowing requirement, but we have to make the effort to do that as accurately as possible because so much depends not only on its level but on what the markets believe the requirement is likely to be.
I am sure that hon. Members will appreciate that important as these financial indicators are their attainment is not an end in itself but merely the means of creating the necessary stability without which we cannot hope to regenerate our manufacturing base and reduce our high levels of unemployment.
Most Opposition Members have poured scorn on the industrial strategy. The hon. Member for Rushcliffe said that he approved of a partnership between Government, management and unions, but the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-West (Sir K. Joseph) does not seem to agree with him. That is a division in the Opposition. The aim of the industrial strategy is to secure a close partnership between Government, management and unions to enable us to improve productivity and arrest the decline in our manufacturing industries.
The Opposition seem to imply that all that is required is a substantial cut both in taxation and in public expenditure and that productivity will magically improve and our industries will again be able to compete with those on the Continent and in Japan. Such simplistic solutions as the Opposition appear to be putting forward not only ignore the disastrous experience of their own period in government but show little understanding of the complexities of modern industrial society.
The purpose of the industrial strategy is to ensure a much closer involvement of Government with industry. Ever since the war, Governments of both major parties have channelled substantial resources into industry. Despite this, however, the paradox of our system is that the partnership between Government and industry is much weaker in this country than in those of many of our major competitors. The French and the Japanese, in particular, as hon. Members know, have managed

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to create a much closer relationship—the kind of relationship which I should have thought the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-West would frown upon. He would not want to see the Japanese system operating here, for many reasons. We cannot reach the Japanese position, but we are trying to create a closer relationship between the Government and industry, which we have not had despite Government efforts in the past.
The work being done in the sector working parties is an attempt to remedy the present unsatisfactory position, to enable the Government to realise the problems of industry and also to enable industry to appreciate that the Government, however sympathetic they may be, cannot by themselves solve all their problems. The problems of British industry—and this is the whole basis of the industrial strategy—can be solved only by co-operation both between Government, management and all employees, and between management and unions at the shop floor level. The hon. Member for Shoreham (Mr. Luce), in a very interesting speech, spoke about innovation and the difficulties that innovators face in obtaining money. He made some interesting and useful points. The financial institutions of this country also must play an increasing part in the industrial strategy. I think that it is fair to say that our banking and financial community has not in the past had such a close involvement with manufacturing industry as the banking institutions of other countries. There are signs that the situation is improving slowly, but we have a long way to go before we attain the level of co-operation between finance, industry and Government which exists among our major competitors.
We cannot pretend, as the Conservatives pretend, that these deep-seated problems can be overcome simply by reducing taxation and reducing public expenditure. Such suggestions show a complete misunderstanding of our real problems.
We should not be under any illusion that the high levels of unemployment from which we are now suffering can be reduced either by financial gimmickry or, indeed, by a substantial reflation behind a tariff wall. These problems will be solved only through painstaking and un-
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dramatic work at the level of industry itself, with the Government playing their full part.
All too often in the past we have tended to assume that our industrial difficulties would disappear through the application of fashionable economic doctrines, be they the doctrines of John Maynard Keynes or Mr. Milton Friedman. If, as a nation, we had been as successful in producing trained engineers as we have been in producing economists and financial analysts, I dare say that many of our industrial problems would have been solved a long time ago.
The House, of course, will recognise that even with the most efficient industry in the world we still could not secure a substantial reduction in unemployment without an upturn in world economic activity. Unless the economies of the Western countries manage to climb out of recession we will, I am afraid, be faced with a prospect, in all countries, of a much higher level of unemployment than we have experienced in the past. The need for concerted action among the major industrial countries to secure this upturn in activity is, in my view, greater now than it has been since before the last war.
The unprecedented slump of 1974–75 owed much to the fourfold increase in the price of oil. There has been some recovery since then, and the OPEC countries' current account surplus was approximately halved in 1975. However, there is still a long way to go before the effect of these surpluses will be mitigated. Indeed, the OPEC current account surplus appears to have grown somewhat again in 1976.
Given the likely outlook for world demand for OPEC oil and the limited capacity of some of the major producers to absorb imports, we have to reckon with the likelihood of continued OPEC surpluses. If the oil surplus rises—and it certainly could—it would threaten both the hopes of increased economic activity and the stability of the international payments system.
We tend to assume that all our problems are domestic, but the problems facing the world economy as a result of this surplus and the continual increase of this surplus are very serious. The Governments of the industrialised nations

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therefore face a very difficult problem, which can ultimately be solved only through the medium of international institutions and by means of international co-operation.
We are told that the prospects for the United Kingdom with North Sea oil coming on stream are slightly better than for many other industrialised countries. But it will be of no benefit to us or even to Scotland—even with the oil—if, as a result of these large surpluses, world economic activity continues to be at a low level and the international financial system is threatened.
To enable us to reduce our unemployment we need an expansion of world trade and a stable international exchange and payments régime. As hon. Members will know, some proposals are now under consideration in the International Monetary Fund with the intention of trying to do something about these large surpluses.
We shall, of course, play our full part in the discussions that are now going on, for it is in our interests, as it is in the interests of the whole world economy, that these surpluses should be put to productive use, thereby stimulating international trade and investment.
In conclusion, this Budget has to do three things. First, it has to make our tax system a great deal fairer by creating a small shift away from direct taxation to indirect taxes. Secondly, it has to provide a framework in order to enable us to get a third stage of incomes policy, which we in the Labour Party and some Conservatives feel is crucial for the development of our economy. Thirdly, it is intended to create the kind of financial stability that we must have if we are to regenerate our industry and improve our economic performance.
I believe that my right hon. Friend will achieve these three objectives and that the Budget will assist us in creating a better and more stable foundation for economic growth in the future.
Debate adjourned.—[Mr. Tinn.]
Debate to be resumed upon Monday next.

FORESTRY INDUSTRY
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Tinn.]
9.50 p.m.
Mr. A. P. Costain: With an Adjournment debate on an important subject such as forestry, I would normally have expected a great attendance in the House to hear it. I have just listened, however, to what was once considered to be an important part of the Budget debate, the winding-up speeches. This time, however, the only Labour Members present were the Chancellor and his ministerial colleagues. One Back Bencher came in for 10 minutes during the last hour and a half. In view of that, I can hardly expect to have many Members present to listen to my Adjournment debate.
I sought permission for this debate because I was anxious to obtain from the Minister an answer which he refused to give me in reply to a recent Question. That Question sought to discover whether he was satisfied with the level of planting in the private sector of the forestry industry. I was amazed to find a Written Answer today to another hon. Member containing what was obviously part of the reply to his debate.
That Question for Written Answer was tabled by a Parliamentary Private Secretary to a Cabinet Minister. It was the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Roderick), who happens to have a number of forests in his constituency. If anyone believes that all that was a coincidence, he will believe anything. I was disappointed that the Minister who has been good enough to come to reply to the debate did not display his usual courtesy in advising me of what he had done, which was to attempt to answer part of the debate.
This whole incident shows the value to Back Benchers of the privilege of raising matters on the motion for the Adjournment. It is quite evident from the Written Answer that the Minister has now done his homework. It is obvious that he is so ashamed of what the Government have done by way of depreciating future forestry that he could not face up to this debate until he had replied to

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a Question for Written Answer inquiring about grants.
In that Written Answer, the hon. Gentleman has the audacity to refer to a statement which was made on 5th July 1974, a date which is not unfamiliar to me since it is my birthday. That statement was contained in a Written Answer to the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. Kelley), and it included some fantistic statements about what was to happen to the forestry industry. Since then it has deteriorated.
The traditions of the House require me to declare an interest. I own a private woodland in Sussex. Since this is within your constituency, Mr. Deputy Speaker, it may not be unfamiliar to you. If I am able to persuade the Minister to go a little further than he has gone in today's Written Answer, that would not benefit me. It would affect my interest in that woodland, which happens to be fully planted and is beginning to be productive. On the other hand, if I fail to impress upon the Minister what a mess he has made of the forestry industry, that could lead to scarcity and my forestry interests would appreciate because of the shortage. I suppose, therefore, that I I ought to declare a negative interest.
I have a constituency interest also to declare, for at Lyminge we have one of the most attractive forestry areas in South-East England. Not only does it add to the local amenities but it gives much-needed help in solving unemployment, which stands now at the high level of 8 per cent. in Folkestone.
It will help the House to appreciate the problem if I explain—perhaps for the Minister's benefit too—why I as an individual first took an interest in forestry and why, some 25 years ago, I decided to invest in it. When I first looked into the matter and examined the figures showing viability, it was apparent to me that there was no financial advantage to be gained in my lifetime from such a venture. Equally well, however, I realised that it would give some tangible means for me to leave to my children—nay, possibly my grandchildren—something by which they might remember me.
At that time, it was clear that the then Conservative Government appreciated the long-term nature of such investment, and for that reason they made special pro-
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vision for forestry in the estate duty. My first question to the Minister—I hope that he will give me a direct answer—is this. There was no direct reference to capital transfer tax in his Written Answer today. Will he come clean with the House on this matter? We understand that there have been meetings on this subject in various committees. A package deal was put forward. Will he tell us frankly what was said about capital transfer tax? Will he make some concession, or does he intend that concessions will be taken away?
I think it only right that I should add that, when I embarked on my forestry project 25 or 26 years ago, the land was pure waste land, full of rubbish. The old woodland had been completely felled because the trees were needed for timber supply in the last war. You will know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, from your constituency knowledge that, as a result of what I have done—I am not trying to be pompous—that land has been turned into an area of outstanding beauty, an area now visited by local residents and visitors from quite long distances.
It can thus be seen that two or three factors are involved in the encouragement of forestry. Much-needed long-term investment gives the community employment as well as social and amenity advantages. It is ridiculous that we should have complaints from Socialist Members—when they turn up from time to time—to the effect that private industry fails to make sufficient capital investment. Cannot they appreciate that our taxation system is so oriented that it prevents funds from being made available for such investment? Will they never realise that one can shear a sheep once a year but if it is skinned it is lost for ever? The truth is that our taxation system tends to skin it.
The present system of taxation and estate duty is bad enough. What alarms me further is pressure from the Left wing of the Labour Party calling for a wealth tax. A wealth tax would make the prospect of any future investment in forestry quite unrealistic, because of an asset which cannot be realised for 50 years is to be taxed year on year how can one possibly expect such projects to be financed? To expect woodlands to bear an annual tax under a wealth tax is as stupid as to expect a farmer to pay a

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weekly tax on the increased value of his growing corn.
The Forestry Committee of Great Britain, which represents the Timber Growers Association, and the Royal Institute of Chartered Surveyors—
It being Ten o'clock, the motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Tinn.]
Mr. Costain: I was referring to the fact that there are three associations that are closely connected with the woodlands industry and the agriculture industry. They have given invaluable evidence to the Government, which gives a clear picture of the problem and the possible solutions. Their evidence shows that the average annual planting over the seven years ending in 1974 was 45,000 hectares. I cannot get hectares sorted out from acres, but that seems to be the modern term. I think that a hectare is 2·7 acres. They indicate that the private sector should contribute half the total of 45,000 hectares. It is clear that we are well below that figure for 1975–76.
The figures on grants paid are the most reliable method of finding out how much has been planted. Only 12,241 hectares was planted last year, and that is half of what the committee wanted. The extraordinary thing is that, of that amount, 9,241 hectares was in Scotland, while in Wales only 520 hectares was planted. I expected that there would be some support from the Welsh nationalists on this matter. I at least expected that the hon. Gentleman who put down a Question on planting would be here to find out what the Minister had to add, but he is not here. The significance of the Welsh situation is that the grants have decreased by 62 per cent.
The forestry committee indicates that the main reason for declining investment is the absence of a consistent long-term policy for private forestry. The committee also says that the application of capital transfer tax to growing crops without adequate provision for the exceptional long-term nature of the investment does not seem sensible. I expect the Minister to say something about this in particular. The committee indicates that
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grants have not been altered to take account of increased costs, although as a result of today's debate the Minister has come forward with an increased grant. Socialists always think that they have only to pay more of the taxpayers' money and everything will be all right. Long-term confidence is needed in a project that will take 50 years to materialise. It is obvious that not only annual grants are wanted.
It is important to get the matter into perspective. Ninety per cent. of our timber requirements is imported from countries outside the EEC. It needs little imagination to see the resultant heavy drain on our sterling balances. Only 8 per cent. of home-grown timber is used, and that is much too little. We seldom have debates on forestry in the House, so it is worth putting on record the contribution that home-produced timber could have on industrial production. I wonder how many hon. Members realise that a log that is worth £1 when lying on the forest floor is worth £5·50 once it has gone through a sawmill and £19 when it has gone through a factory producing building boards. Believe it or not, it is worth £27 when it is turned into paper. Think of the possibilities of employment there.
I wonder how many people realise when they read our newspapers every morning and take them for granted that if everybody in China read newspapers in the same way as we do in this country the whole world supply of timber would dry up in less than a generation. That is the timber situation. We are used to believing that the natural assets of the world are available for all time. How many people appreciate that 14 acres of tropical forest is destroyed for development every minute?
I wonder how many people realise that to meet the demands of this country for timber we need to plant a forest of the acreage of Wales ever year, and that we are planting an acreage of only about half the size of the Isle of Wight. That is the sort of problem we are facing in the timber industry.
There is much to be done. The industry welcomes the Minister's announcement in a Written Answer this morning, even though that was a funny way of doing it, but the industry has my support

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in pressing for more than cash grants. We need long-term confidence and assurance that the Government will not play hanky-panky over taxation.
The Government must get the Treasury to accept that this is a long-term industry which could help to deal with the unemployment problem. At one time it was thought that forestry competed with hill sheep farming, but there has been research into this claim, particularly in Wales, and it has been proved that the two industries can exist side by side.
If the Minister fails to give the necessary assurances to provide confidence for the planting industry, this country will be paying very much more than is necessary for timber imports in 50 years' time. I hope that, as I have raised this debate, I may be relieved of the responsibility for that state of affairs, but the Minister will have a lot to answer for.
10.6 p.m.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Gavin Strang): I should like to congratulate the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Costain) on the timely nature of this Adjournment debate, following as it does so soon after the statement made yesterday by my hon. Friend the Minister of State, Treasury, about the changes we intend to introduce in the light of the report of the interdepartmental working party on forestry.
I hope the hon. Gentleman will agree that it made sense to make the announcement before rather than after this debate and I am sure that, with his vast parliamentary experience, he will agree that there is nothing unusual about Ministers making such announcements in the period between the Chancellor's opening Budget Statement and the enactment of the Finance Act.
However, it appears that no one took the trouble to inform the hon. Gentleman personally about the Written Answer, and I am sorry about that. I was in Brussels for the first part of the week and in Edinburgh yesterday. If I had been here I would have told the hon. Gentleman personally, but I accept full responsibility for the fact that he was given no warning. I unreservedly apologise to him.
Mr. Costain: I know the hon. Gentleman well and I fully accept what he says.
Mr. Strang: I thank the hon. Gentleman. It is not at all pompous for him to draw attention to his own efforts in this area, and I pay tribute to the constructive work that he has done. Turning any area of derelict land into a growing area of timber is something of which any hon. Member has a right to be proud.
I think the point needs to be made from the start that the recent interdepartmental review was in no way an overall review of forestry policy. Current forestry policy is founded broadly on the 1972 consultative document called "Forestry Policy", which stemmed from the first major review of the industry since the Second World War. That document was widely studied by everyone who had an interest in forestry, and after a lengthy period of consultation the previous Administration set out clear guidelines which were endorsed by my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal, who was then Minister of Agriculture, on 5th July 1974.
That still represents our policy. For the private sector it is centred upon the basis III dedication scheme introduced in October 1974, under which grants are given at the time of planting in return for owners accepting a continuing obligation to manage their woodlands in accordance with specific social and environmental considerations.
Timber production to feed our wood-processing industries continues to be recognised as the ultimate goal for woodlands managed under the scheme, as under the previous dedication schemes; but in pursuing this important end objective woodland owners are called upon to temper their management practices so that private forestry develops in full harmony with agricultural and amenity requirements.
The overall level of planting achieved under this new scheme and the old dedication schemes, which remained open to existing participants, has continued to fall from the peak of 24,000 hectares five years ago to about half that level in the 1974–75 planting season. It was because of their concern about this trend and its effect on the environment that

719
the Government set up the interdepartmental review group last July to look into the whole question of how forestry is affected by Government policies on taxation, grants and amenities. Wide interest was expressed in the work of the group and 45 individuals and organisations responded to the invitation to submit written evidence. Eighteen of them subsequently gave oral evidence to the group.
As regards the tax aspects, I should like to say a word or two about the decision to break the link between the dedication schemes and the special relief for woodlands under Schedule 9 to the Finance Act 1975. We would not have done this if we had had any doubts about the effects on agriculture and the environment. The other benefits of dedication are so great that we do not expect more than a tiny fraction of new planting to take place outside dedication. On the contrary, this relief will become available for the substantial area of existing woodlands, many of them of high amenity value, which for one reason or another is not at present dedicated. The Government have concluded that the greatest scope for raising the present low planting levels in the private sector lies in broadening and improving the grants structure, and the new measures will take effect from 1st October next.
The first of those measures relates to the basis II grants. The rise in planting grants from about £57 to £75 a hectare represents an increase of about 31 per cent. The annual management grants will be increased pro rata, and as usual the Forestry Commission will discuss with the Forestry Committee of Great Britain how this should be done. Since the triennial review of basis II grants due to take place in October last year has in effect been overtaken by this review, the next review will be in October 1980.
In raising basis III planting grants from £45 to £100 a hectare, the Government bore in mind the additional commitments into which woodland owners must enter to meet the land use and environmental objectives of that scheme. Approved broad leaved planting will qualify for a grant of £225 a hectare, thus maintaining the present differential. This rate is aimed not only at additional planting and replanting in broadleaved woodlands but
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at improving some of the existing 285,000 or so hectares of unproductive woodlands that are predominantly broad-leaved scrub.
The value of establishing a timber crop by rehabilitating such sites through selective planting and natural regeneration, without detracting from their visual amenity, justifies assistance of that order to meet the initial extra cost. The new management grant under basis III gives practical recognition to the fact that for a considerable time after planting the owner continues to incur significant costs in managing the woodlands before he receives his first returns by way of thinnings. The new grant will be payable upon approval by the Forestry Commission of the work done under the previous plan of operations, at the five-yearly renewal of the plan, thus reducing administrative costs. These new basis III grants will also be reviewed in October 1980.
One of the difficulties that has beset forestry grant reviews in the past has been the absence of any agreed method for assessing the movement in net costs against which the effectiveness of the grants is measured. The interdepartmental review group gave consideration to this and has recommended a formula which, it is hoped, will provide adequate assurances for the industry that grants will be maintained at effective levels while at the same time protecting the interests of the taxpayer as the forests, through regular felling and planting, become more balanced and the industry more self-sufficient. We have asked the Forestry Commission to discuss this formula with the Forestry Committee of Great Britain with the intention that it should be used for the net basis II and III grant review in 1980.
The Government share the concern expressed about the loss of small woods whose importance lies not only in their aesthetic, nature conservation and amenity value but also in the significant contribution they make towards the country's timber resources, a contribution capable of being enhanced through effective management. As my right hon. Friend announced yesterday, we have therefore decided to reintroduce a small woods planting scheme which will give particular emphasis to the planting of broadleaved trees in the lowlands. The rates of grant

721
announced recognise that many small woods will be broadleaved, particularly in those areas of the country where broadleaves clearly predominate, as well as the need for a margin over the basis III broadleaved grant to meet the higher costs, particularly of fencing, which arise in small scale planting.
With this small woods scheme and the Countryside Commission's grant-aid scheme for small amenity plantings, we shall thus have a comprehensive system for encouraging the establishment of the small woods, copses and spinneys on which the beauty of our lowland scene so much depends.
I do not have much knowledge of the hon. Gentleman's interests in forestry, but I hope he will agree that this is quite useful.
Mr. Costain: I think that it is most useful. It will encourage more people to carry on. However, will the Minister give a direct answer? What worries people in forestry is the fact that never during their lifetime can they realise it. Will he give some assurance about the question of capital transfer tax or death duties and an assurance that he will make some concession, realising that this is a 50-year asset? That is much more important than even the grants that he is offering.
Mr. Strang: I would not dispute that. Certainly the tax concessions, which I am sure the hon. Gentleman would not confine to capital transfer tax but would extend to income tax arrangements as well, almost certainly motivate the private sector much more than any of the grants, even at the enhanced levels announced. However, I was only making the point that if the hon. Gentleman's own woodland—perhaps I did not follow him too closely—is not very large, he may particularly appreciate this type of scheme.
I know that the new Chairman of the Forestry Commission is particularly interested in the question of integrating forestry with agriculture. The hon. Gentleman will know about some of the rather interesting work that has been done in various parts of the country, particularly in Wales, showing how agricultural output can be increased where there is a proper integration between afforestation and the agricultural needs of hill farms in particular. It may well be—of course,
722
we are here talking about a lowland scheme—that further inducements to this type of development are contained in the overall package that the Government have announced.
With the reintroduction of a small woods scheme, basis III will be closed to the entry of areas of less than 10 hectares. It is expected that owners already in basis III with woodlands below this minimum will want to transfer to the small woods scheme with its simpler arrangements and higher planting grants. Any who wish to continue in dedication may do so, however, with the benefit of the revised planting grants, but they will not be eligible for the new management grant.
The final element in this package of grant changes relates specifically to Scotland. In its own habitat the native Caledonian Pine is as significant, both as a timber producer and in environmental terms, as are broadleaves in lowland Britain, and we have decided that approved planting of Caledonian Pine of local origin in special areas to be agreed with the Nature Conservancy Council should in future attract the same planting and management grants as broadleaves under basis III.
The Government have often declared their wish to see private forestry making its full contribution alongside the Forestry Commission, not least as the provider of a valuable renewable resource of importance to the economy. We hope that the new measures will lead to an increase in planting levels in the private sector.
It is our belief that the interlocking needs of forestry and agriculture, the provision of employment in rural areas and the environmental considerations on which our modern society places great importance can and, indeed, must b2 reconciled. Indeed, I would support the hon. Gentleman in the general tenor of much of his observations—not in relation to the private sector alone, I trust, but in relation to forestry as a whole.
I am glad that the hon. Gentleman cited the figures showing how for forestry the value added leaps up enormously as soon as a tree has been felled. I have occasionally cited not too dissimilar figures in the past. It still surprises many people just how little value a tree

723
has after all its years of growing compared to the value that it acquires as soon as it gets to the sawmill.
The measures we have announced are aimed at providing a financial framework which will reconcile these needs within the overall objective of establishing and maintaining a reasonable level
724
of home timber production. It is our hope that these measures will restore confidence in the industry generally and provide a sound basis on which the forestry industry can operate for many years to come.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at twenty-one minutes past Ten o'clock.

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  Aviation Insurance
  Aviation Insurance
  Air Traffic Control
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  Oil Slicks
  Oil Slicks
  Registry of Business Names
  Registry of Business Names
  Medicines (Patents)
  Medicines (Patents)
  Trade Balances
  Trade Balances
  Commodity Markets (Price Levels)
  Commodity Markets (Price Levels)
CIVIL SERVICE
  Television (Government Advertising)
  Television (Government Advertising)
  Governmental Hospitality
  Governmental Hospitality
CIVIL SERVICE
  Her Majesty's Stationery Office (Staff Costs)
  Her Majesty's Stationery Office (Staff Costs)
  Rhodesia
  Rhodesia
  United States of America
  United States of America
FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
  Immigrants (Indian Sub-continent)
  Immigrants (Indian Sub-continent)
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  Hansen's Disease (Research)
  Hansen's Disease (Research)
  Research and Technology Support Units
  Research and Technology Support Units
  Student Grants
  Student Grants
  Works of Art (Gifts in Lieu of Tax)
  Works of Art (Gifts in Lieu of Tax)
  Diploma of Higher Education
  Diploma of Higher Education
  Teacher Training (Polytechnic of Wales)
  Teacher Training (Polytechnic of Wales)
DEFENCE
  Minesweeper "Ledbury"
  Minesweeper "Ledbury"
  Airborne Early Warning
  Airborne Early Warning
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Fish Farming
  Fish Farming
  Departmental Questionnaires
  Departmental Questionnaires
  Departmental Correspondence
  Departmental Correspondence
  Covent Garden Market Authority
  Covent Garden Market Authority
ENERGY
  Speed Limits
  Speed Limits
  Offshore Oil (Licensing System)
  Offshore Oil (Licensing System)
  North Thames Gas Board (Chairman)
  North Thames Gas Board (Chairman)
NORTHERN IRELAND
  Criminal Injury Compensation
  Criminal Injury Compensation
OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT
  Jamaica
  Jamaica
EMPLOYMENT
  Public Services
  Public Services
  Clothing Trades
  Clothing Trades
  Fraud (Detection and Prevention)
  Fraud (Detection and Prevention)
  Mobility
  Mobility
  Employment Transfer Scheme
  Employment Transfer Scheme
  Statistics
  Statistics
  Industrial Tribunals
  Industrial Tribunals
  Hawker Siddeley Aviation Limited
  Hawker Siddeley Aviation Limited
  Tanning
  Tanning
  Pay Awards
  Pay Awards
  Bank Holidays
  Bank Holidays

Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock (Prayers having been read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the Lord Bishop of Birmingham.):
The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

SMOKING IN PUBLIC PLACES
2.30 p.m.
Lord SHINWELL: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the announcement by the Secretary of State for Social Services to prevent smoking in public places is intended to apply to pipe smokers.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, the purpose of my right honourable friend's initiative is to create a climate of opinion which regards non-smoking in enclosed public places as the norm and to reduce the nuisance of polluted atmosphere for those who do not smoke. For both reasons the restriction should apply to all forms of smoking.
Lord SHINWELL: My Lords, does my noble friend not agree that it is presumptuous on the part of Ministers to make pronouncements of this character which they themselves know have not the force of law? Can my noble friend say whether a pronouncement, such as that which the Minister concerned made, was considered by the Cabinet, and the Cabinet arrived at a decision? Finally, does he not agree that our liberties nowadays are so few that we object to them being further restricted? Would he take it from me personally—and I can speak for many other Members of your Lordships' House—that any interference with pipe smokers, even among the pigeons in a public place like Trafalgar Square, will be strongly resisted, even to the extent of interfering with the ambitions of Mr. Callaghan and his friends when it comes to the next General Election?
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: I do not quite know where to begin, my Lords. With the greatest respect to my noble friend, I should point out that it is the responsibility of my Department to concern itself with the health of the people. I think, too, that we must bear in mind that more than half the adults in this country are now non-smokers, and, that being the case, it seems to be reasonable that adequate provision should be made for non-smokers. I should also point out that market research shows that most smokers themselves feel that there should be further restriction on smoking in public places. This is not a question of legislation. My right honourable friend has made it perfectly clear that he proposes to do this, we hope, by persuasion and education.
Lord MACKIE of BENSHIE: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the noble Lord who asked the Question is the greatest example which the Minister could have of the benefits of pipe smoking to the health of the nation?
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, there are peculiarities in every sphere.
Lord BLYTON: My Lords, is the Minister aware that I agree with my noble friend—
Several noble Lords: Order, order!
Lord PLATT: My Lords, although I recognise and respect the views of the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, when somebody in the next place lights a pipe just as I am about to have lunch, I feel that it is my liberty that is being interfered with and not his. I am sorry, my Lords, that should have been a question. I beg your pardon.
Lord BLYTON: My Lords, with regard to the discrimination between nonsmokers and smokers, is the Minister aware that there is now being developed a policy of apartheid in which the cigarette smoker is penalised and the tobacco smoker is left alone?
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, although pipe smoking is less dangerous than cigarette smoking to the health of the smoker, one must bear in mind that it causes equal discomfort and distress to the non-smoker.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROY: My Lords, in order to set an example, will members of the Government refrain from smoking pipes when they appear on television?
Lord SEGAL: My Lords, since pipe tobacco has been granted a reprieve in Tuesday's Budget, should not pipe smokers be content for the moment with small mercies?
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I think that I would subscribe to the view of my noble friend.
Lord SHINWELL: My Lords, will my noble friend be kind enough to reply to my original supplementary question? It was this: has this pronouncement the force of law? That is the first point. Secondly, was it considered by the Cabinet, and did the Cabinet arrive at a decision which entitled the Minister to make such a pronouncement?
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I pointed out that this pronouncement has not the force of law. There is no intention, certainly not at this stage, to introduce legislation. I said that my right honourable friend wants to deal with this matter by way of persuasion and education. This is not, I believe, a decision of the Cabinet. It is a matter arising from the view of, and the Statement made quite recently by, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State in charge of the Social Services, whose responsibility it is to concern himself with the health of the nation.
Lord SLATER: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that on one occasion a previous Chancellor of the Exchequer made a Statement in the other place that the taxation that was imposed upon people who smoked cigarettes helped to pay for the State educational system in our country and assisted towards meeting the expenses incurred in the National Health Service.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I think it would be regrettable for any Government to raise money irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the situation or the particular sphere from which the money is to be obtained. If it is felt that a certain course should be taken in the
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best interests of the nation, then I think that money must be found from other sources.
Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE: In any case, my Lords, if we stopped smoking would not the taxable capacity of the nation he vastly increased?

POST OFFICE: SUNDAY COLLECTIONS
2.38 p.m.
Baroness YOUNG: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what advice they are receiving from the Carter Committee as a result of its scrutiny of the suspension of the Sunday postal service; and when they expect the Post Office to be in a position to announce the results of the trial period.
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, the Government have not yet received any advice from the Carter Committee as its report and recommendations have not yet been submitted. As the noble Baroness is doubtless aware, the Post Office announced on 11th March that with postal finances so finely balanced it did not propose to reintroduce Sunday and late restricted postal collections at the present time. This conclusion was reached in the light of its own review, which it promised when the decision to suspend Sunday collections was taken last year.
Baroness YOUNG: My Lords, I can only regard that as a somewhat unsatisfactory reply to the Question. Does the noble Lord not consider that it is in the public interest for the Post Office, as a public monopoly which we are all obliged to use, to take the advice of the Committee under Mr. Carter (which is considering the postal services) before deciding to suspend the Sunday collections permanently?
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, committees do not present their reports so quickly that nationalised industries of a major size can wait upon their decisions. But I understand that Sir

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William Ryland has said that he is not closing the door for all time on the subject of Sunday collections and the Post Office constantly reviews its service in the light of changing circumstances. The Carter report may be one of these changing circumstances.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that most users of the Post Office would be quite happy to do without Sunday collections and second deliveries if only they could have their postage a little cheaper?
Lord WADE: My Lords, pending the report from the Carter Committee, could the noble Lord enlighten the House on a point which concerns a number of people in areas where the Saturday collection is comparatively early in the day? Is there any advantage in posting by first-class post if the letter is posted after the time of collection on Saturday? Presumably it could not reach its destination until Tuesday. Does it follow that, if the second-class post is used, it will not reach its destination before Wednesday; or does it make no difference what stamp is put on the letter?
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, that is a highly technical question, the answer to which, I would say, varies from place to place within the United Kingdom. But if there is a specific answer, I will write to the noble Lord.
Lord BYERS: My Lords, is there any point in the noble Lord writing to my noble friend?
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I am rather good at answering letters.
The Earl of KIMBERLEY: My Lords, is there any possible chance of the noble Lord being able to say whether the report of the Carter Committee will come out before the debate on the postal and telecommunications services in your Lordships' Chamber on the 20th April?
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I am informed that in fact the two could almost coincide. I will make an attempt to persuade my right honourable friend to see that the report is out before the debate.
Lord ORR-EWING: My Lords, could the noble Lord insist that no permanent judgment should be made by the Post Office? An independent committee has been set up. In these circumstances, surely it would be wrong for the Post Office internal committee to come to conclusions, and for action to be taken on those conclusions, until this matter has been thoroughly discussed in Parliament. It has a considerable impact on the business efficiency of our country, as well as on the private community, and this should not be a decision which is taken without mature and very careful consideration.
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I have crossed swords with many noble Lords before on this subject. I think noble Lords must make up their minds whether they regard the Post Office as a commercial undertaking, as I believe it is, or a social service. It is the firm view of Her Majesty's Government that the Post Office should not be required, contrary to its commercial judgment, to offer a service the cost of which is disproportionately high to the public benefit. This was agreed when Sunday collections were provisionally suspended last year. Quite frankly, that is the sort of question we ought to discuss. What is this very large industry? Is it a commercial undertaking or is it a social service? In the view of Her Majesty's Government, it is a commercial undertaking and the judgment of its management must be paramount.
Lord BOSTON of FAVERSHAM: My Lords, apart from the Post Office argument about costs, which was well known before the review was instituted last year, can my noble friend say, first, what evidence the Post Office has adduced justifying its decision not to reintroduce Sunday collections; and, secondly, and in particular, what evidence it has adduced which justifies its announcement two months before the review was due to end? There is great public feeling about Sunday collections, and indeed the Union of Post Office Workers itself wants them to be reintroduced. If the Post Office will not face up to its obligations, does my noble friend not feel that perhaps the answer might in the end be a simple one-clause Bill imposing this obligation upon the Post Office?
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, as stated in the announcement on the 11th March, postal finances were so finely balanced that the Post Office did not propose to reintroduce Sunday and late restricted postal collections at the present time. I repeat, "postal finances". It really is a question of commercial judgment, and we had better leave it at that.
Lord ROBBINS: My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he intends us to infer from his answer to the penultimate supplementary question that commercial undertakings which are monopolies are not the subject of public debate?
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I never said that; but the day-to-day operation of a nationalised industry is not the subject of questioning in Parliament. We have adequate opportunities every year to debate the performance of nationalised industries.
Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLS: My Lords, does the noble Lord recognise—
The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart): My Lords, I have the feeling that it is the wish of the House to pass on to the next Question.

MEDICINAL PRODUCTS: SALE AND SUPPLY
2.45 p.m.
Lord JACQUES: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government when they intend to implement Part III of the Medicines Act 1968.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, a series of interrelated statutory orders and regulations is needed to implement Part III of this Act, and last March the Government opened consultations on the drafts of the main orders. Consultations have started on draft Medicines (Sale or Supply) (Miscellaneous Provisions) Regulations, and further Instruments are being prepared. Her Majesty's Government intend to lay the whole series of Instru
1038
ments before Parliament during the course of the summer.
Lord JACQUES: My Lords, may I thank my noble friend for that reply? Is he aware that it is necessary that the uncertainty caused by the long delay in implementing this Part of this Act should be brought to an end as soon as possible? Secondly, could he give the House an assurance that, in making the regulations paramount concern will be given to the convenience as well as the safety of consumers?
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, in reply to the first part of my noble friend's supplementary question, this has been going on a long time and the Government are fully aware of it, but the Medicines Commission set up two sub-committees and we are (shall I say?) in some difficulty in the sense that their members can give only a certain amount of time; they are people drawn from those professions which are competent in this field and who, therefore, can sit only at certain intervals. There are thousands of medicines which have to be examined by them in order to make sure which, in their view, must be sold by a pharmacist and which may be sold in other ways. This is part of the very real problem. It necessitates a good deal of consultation and discussion. With regard to the second part of my noble friend's supplementary question, we are aware that one must take into account the needs of the consumer, and this is certainly being borne in mind.
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: My Lords, anent the Answer given by my noble friend, would I be right in assuming that if Part III of this Act is implemented it would thereby enable certain drugs and medicines to be sold over the counter and to be advertised on television? And who vets the advertising of wonder drugs and the use of hyperbolic language in describing cheap drugs on television?
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, there is a body known as, I think, the Advertising Standards Board. I do not know whether in fact they have any responsibility for this, but I will certainly make inquiries.
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: I thank my noble friend.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: There is one proposal in particular which has given rise to controversy; namely, that there should be a ban on the self-service sale of analgesics such as aspirin and paracetamol. Noble Lords will know that some arrangement was entered into whereby they could be sold in drug stores provided, first, that the strength was not above a certain limit; secondly, that the containers in which they were sold were child-proof; and, thirdly, that they were not in containers containing more than 25 at a time. Following, the revised advice from the Commission, my right honourable friends the Health Ministers announced on the 24th February that they had decided that a ban on self-service sales was not necessary. That has given rise to all sorts of difficulties, because at the present moment medicines that can be lawfully sold in ordinary shops but which would be restricted to pharmacy sale or restricted if and when Part III is implemented, would comprise such things as eye drops or eye ointments, sedatives containing bromides and certain vitamin preparations. It really is a very difficult matter, my Lords.
Lord DRUMALBYN: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, so far as television advertising is concerned, to which I think the noble Lord referred, that is entirely the responsibility of the Independent Broadcasting Authority, subject to the control of the Minister?
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I am grateful. When I replied, I looked at the noble Lord in the hope that he would rise.

FISHERIES: 50 MILE LIMIT
2.50 p.m.
The Marquess of SLIGO: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in the view of their declaration that nothing less than a 50 mile exclusive fishing limit for this country is acceptable to most of the fishermen, it would not be good policy to support the Republic of Ireland at Brussels in a similar demand.
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, the broad objectives of Her Majesty's Government on the reappraisal of the Common Fisheries Policy remain those stated by the Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs at the Council of Foreign Ministers at Luxembourg on 4th May 1976. The Government will bear in mind at all stages of the discussions within the Community that their concern over some aspects of the present policy is shared by the Government of the Republic of Ireland.
The Marquess of SLIGO: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply. Will he not agree that, in the interests of conservation and of British fishermen, Her Majesty's Government should now claim an exclusive 50 mile fishing limit? Does he not think that this should be a precondition for licensing foreign trawlers, most of which have scant regard for the preservation of stocks and wish only to make a quick profit?
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, I fully accept that urgent action is necessary and the Government have emphasised this to the rest of the Community. However, the interests of conservation would be best served by a Community solution and, in present circumstances, this is what the Government are seeking. However, it remains open to the Government to take non-discriminatory measures where no Community rule exists.
Lord BOOTHBY: My Lords, in order to avoid yet another long and perhaps damaging wrangle in Brussels, does not the noble lord think that, on this issue, on which there is practically unanimity of opinion, it would be better for the Government to say now that the 50 mile limit is our minimum demand and to make it clear to the EEC that this is not negotiable?
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, the United Kingdom's aims, of which the 50 mile limit is one, are, first, this exclusive zone of up to 50 miles and then improved conservation measures, an adequate quota system within the 200 mile Community limit, effective enforcement measures and a substantial reduction in fishing by Third Countries within the Community zone.
Lord CAMPBELL OF CROY:My Lords, will the noble Lord make it clear

1041
that it is still the aim of the Government to negotiate within the EEC an exclusive United Kingdom zone extending up to 50 miles in the important areas in order to conserve fishing grounds which could still be productive for centuries to come? While this subject matter must be abstruse to many not connected with the fishing industry, is the noble Lord aware that any Government which appeared to acquiesce in the demise of our fishing ports and communities or which caused the cod or herring to become expensive rareties would never be forgiven by the country as a whole?
Lord STRABOLGI: Yes, my Lords. I agree absolutely with the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy. I am glad to confirm that the exclusive zone of up to 50 miles remains one of our aims. It is part of the other measures that I have just given to the House. I should also like to say that the United Kingdom is able to take appropriate non-discriminatory action to protect fish stocks within the United Kingdom fishery limits wherever no Community measures are in operation.
Lord PEDDIE: My Lords, will my noble friend indicate to the House the precise machinery that exists for continuing consultation with fishing interests in this country on the subject of limits and quotas?
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, we are expecting a new initiative from the Commission for a definitive fisheries régime shortly after Easter with a view to reaching a settlement by June. Events since the beginning of the year only add greater urgency to what was already a major and pressing issue.
Lord MACKIE of BENSHIE: My Lords, do the Government agree with the report of the Expenditure Committee on the fishing industry in which it says that the preservation of irreplaceable fish stocks is more important than a semblance of short-term agreement, and that it welcomes:
"the Government's readiness to take unilateral action to protect fish stocks within British limits"?
Again, do the Government agree with the Committee which, in paragraph 9, says:
1042
"In our view, catch quotas have been completely discredited as the sole means of husbanding fishery resources, a view which is backed up by all members of the fishing industry …"?
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, the Government are fully aware that further conservation measures are needed to supplement those already adopted by the Community. In particular, there is a very urgent need to consider further action on herring stocks.

AIRBORNE EARLY WARNING
Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE: My Lords, with the leave of the House, at a convenient moment after 3.30 p.m., my noble friend Lord Winter-bottom will repeat a Statement on Airborne Early Warning.
BRITISH TRANSPORT DOCKS BILL
Read 3ª, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
CITY OF LONDON (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL [H.L.]
Read 3ª, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

EXAMINERS OF PETITIONS FOR PRIVATE BILLS
The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES (Lord Aberdare): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That so much of the Order of the House of 9th December last as relates to the appointment of Mr. T. G. Talbot, C.B., Q.C. and Sir Robert Speed, C.B., Q.C. as Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills be discharged.—(Lord Aberdare.)
Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE: My Lords, before agreeing to this Motion, may I say that we very much appreciate what these two gentlemen have done. The subject matter of their work was contentious but no one has criticised the impartiality with which

1043
they discharged their duties and, if I may be allowed a personal view, I was enormously impressed with the reasoning of the report. Some of us in the profession remember Mr. Talbot's father, a much loved Judge of the King's Bench Division, and we are glad to see that his son is carrying on the splendid family tradition.
The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord. Certainly, they had a difficult task and, together with the other Examiners, they discharged it with great skill. I will, if I may, pass on the remarks of the noble and learned Lord to both the gentlemen concerned.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

MERCHANT SHIPPING (SAFETY CONVENTION) BILL [H.L.]
2.58 p.m.
Lord ORAM: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time. The object of the Bill is to enable the United Kingdom to ratify the 1974 International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea. I should like, first, to set out the background to the Convention, which is the fifth of its kind. In 1974, at the initiative of the United Kingdom, a conference of the members of the Inter-Governmental Maritime Consultative Organisation, which is the United Nations agency concerned with maritime affairs, was held in London. This conference led to the 1974 Convention being signed by 67 States, including all the world's leading maritime nations.
As this country played a leading rôle in events leading up to the Convention, we should do all in our power to bring the Convention into force as soon as possible by ratifying it through the passage of this Bill. The United Kingdom as one of the world's leading shipping nations—currently ranked third by the tonnage of its fleet—is very influential within IMCO, and it is important that we continue this rôle by being among the first to ratify the Convention. To date, four countries have ratified, and we must not delay much longer.
The sense of urgency I believe is strengthened if one considers the factors which led to the Convention being signed
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in 1974, and which contributed to the United Kingdom calling for the Conference that produced the Convention. First, there was the wish to implement by incorporation into a new Convention all the amendments which had been made to the 1960 Convention that had not yet been brought into force. Some of these amendments date from 1966. Yet, in spite of the fact that these amendments had been drafted for so long, and, indeed, in spite of all the work they entailed on the part of IMCO staff and member Governments, they were still not in force on account of the number of positive acceptances needed by countries before they could be incorporated in the Convention. In consequence, improvements in safety were being allowed to lag behind the recognised need for them. Secondly, apart from the implementation of past amendments, it was clearly necessary to quicken the speed at which amendments in the future come into force. This led to the agreement at the 1974 SOLAS Conference of an accelerated amendment procedure to prevent delays in future.
Safety of life at sea is in its very nature an international problem. We therefore attach great importance to the work of IMCO, which is the only United Nations specialist agency in this country. A substandard ship is a hazard both to itself and to others wherever it is sailing. It is therefore imperative that steps to improve shipping safety should so far as possible be taken internationally through the co-operation of the world's shipping nations. The United Kingdom is committed to this course of action, and ratifying the SOLAS Convention represents a vital contribution on our part to strengthening the international regulation of shipping safety.
The coming into force of the Convention, and the prospect of its continuing evolution through its built-in amendment procedures, will strengthen the credibility of international regulation-making in maritime matters. Recent events, such as the spate of tanker incidents off the coast of the United States of America, have contributed to a trend towards the unilateral regulation of shipping in the United States, and a number of Bills are now before the United States Congress which might well lead to the United States adopting safety standards at variance with international regulations.

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There is no doubt that one of the main factors making for unilateralism is the alleged slowness of international regulation, and its failure to keep pace with new situations. SOLAS 1974 is designed to meet this, and its coming into force as soon as possible is therefore vital. For make no doubt about it, my Lords, if Conventions of this sort are not brought into force, the trend towards unilateralism in these matters will grow. This would greatly complicate the problems of the shipping industry of a major maritime country like ours, which sets great store by international agreements. We should be much handicapped by having to comply with a variety of national rules.
Having described the background to the Convention, I should like to turn briefly to the Bill, which seeks to implement the provisions of the Convention so far as this country is concerned. The IMCO text of the Convention was laid before Parliament last April. The Convention will come into force 12 months from the date on which at least 25 States, whose combined merchant fleets amount to at least 50 per cent. of the world's gross tonnage, have become parties to it. To date, as I have said, four countries have ratified. Ratification by the United Kingdom will not in itself bring the Convention into force, but it will undoubtedly help and permit us to take the initiative with other countries regarding this.
As I have already said, the 1974 Convention will replace the 1960 Convention, which in turn replaced the 1948 Convention. This latter Convention was put into effect in this country by the Merchant Shipping (Safety Convention) Act 1949. The 1960 Convention in its turn was put into effect by the Merchant Shipping Act 1964, which, among other things, changed the references in the 1949 Act to the 1948 Convention into references to the 1960 Convention. This Bill does the same thing in terms of the 1974 Convention in that it translates the references to the 1960 Convention which appear in the 1949 and 1964 Acts into references to the 1974 Convention.
Provision for making these existing Statutes apply to the 1974 Convention is contained in Clause 1 of the Bill. This simple legislative change will go a long way towards allowing us to implement the requirements of the Convention. This is
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because the powers derived from the 1949 and 1964 Acts are sufficiently wide to make rules on most matters covered by the 1974 Convention, including many of the new measures introduced by it.
However, there are a number of new items introduced by the Convention where existing powers are inadequate, and I should like to mention these areas briefly. First, the Convention in the part dealing with fire safety establishes new requirements affecting the oil fuel used in machinery. Among other things, it provides for the prohibition of the use of oil fuel below specified flash-point levels. Powers to make regulations on these matters are at present inadequate to meet the requirements of the Convention. Accordingly, subsection (4) of Clause 1 makes minor amendments to the 1949 and 1964 Acts to enable the appropriate rules to be made.
Secondly, the Convention, in the part dealing with the carriage of grain, which has been substantially revised, extends the type of grain, subject to regulation, to include processed as well as natural forms. As your Lordships may be aware, grain is considered a dangerous cargo; movements at sea cause it to shift easily, jeopardising the vessel's stability. Processed grain, which can differ greatly in composition and appearance from natural grain, may in some circumstances be equally hazardous. With the extension of coverage to include processed grain brought about by the Convention, it is desirable to clarify the scope of our powers to include natural and processed grain, and this is done by subsection (5)(a) of Clause 1.
Thirdly, and also in relation to the carriage of grain, the Convention calls for the issuing of documents of authorisation to ships carrying grain which are loaded in accordance with the new regulations. Our existing powers under the 1949 Act to issue such documents are confined to ships where the cargo of grain exceeds one-third of the ship's registered tonnage. It is now desired to extend the power to issue certificates to all ships carrying grain, regardless of the volume of the cargo in relation to the size of ship. This is provided for by the amendment in subsection (5)(b) of Clause 1 of the existing definition of a "ship carrying a cargo of grain".

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The fourth area where new additional powers are needed to implement the requirements of the Convention concerns nuclear ships. Nuclear ships were covered for the first time in the 1960 SOLAS Convention. However, we ratified that Convention at a time when the building of nuclear ships was still under debate. We therefore reserved our position on nuclear ships. We made clear that while we fully accepted the requirements relating to nuclear ships, we would implement them only as soon as it became necessary to do so. More recently, one or two ships have been built which meet the Convention's definition of a ship provided with a nuclear power plant and, though they are still very few in number, it is desirable that we take powers to regulate them. Clause 2 provides for these powers. The regulations required by the Convention will be exacting. For instance, nuclear ships are to be surveyed at least annually; special regard is to be paid to the safety of the reactor installation and to radiation hazards, and special control is to be exercised on nuclear ships before entering and while in port. New nuclear passenger and cargo ship safety certificates are to be created and issued to nuclear ships complying with Convention requirements.
I should like next to turn to Clause 3 which deals with future amendments to the Convention. I mentioned at the outset the background to the Conference which drew up the Convention and its desire to make the amendment of SOLAS Conventions more rapid. Provision for this is contained in Article VIII of the 1976 Convention. The details are fairly complex, and they vary according to what part of the Convention is being amended. I will not go into all the complexities but they are designed to make the amendment procedure much quicker than hitherto, consistent with the fullest possible consultation between contracting Governments. Under the amendment provisions, a Government would not be bound to accept or bring into force any amendment to which it objected; so there is no question of a loss of national sovereignty. Furthermore, under Clause 3 implementation by the United Kingdom of amendments would be made by means of Orders in Council subject to Affirmative Resolution of both Houses of Parliament. There is, therefore, provision for the fullest
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Parliamentary scrutiny of future amendments.
In conclusion, I should like to stress the urgency with which the Government view this measure. To encourage other countries to ratify in sufficient numbers to bring the Convention into force and thereby maintain the prestige and effectiveness of international co-operation in safety at sea is, as I am sure your Lordships will agree, reason enough for welcoming this Bill. But beyond that, I believe that we have an obligation to all those who go to sea—whether they serve in the Merchant Navy or are passengers—to ensure that safety standards of the highest order are promoted and enforced. I know that both sides of the shipping industry in this country—both the shipowners and the seafarers—support this measure and are anxious to see the Bill become law. We have a duty not to let them down in this matter and, for this reason, I believe that the Bill will be welcomed both here and in another place. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2ª.—(Lord Oram.)
3.16 p.m.
Lord LYELL: My Lords, all of us on these Benches are most grateful for the very full explanation of this Bill given by the noble Lord, Lord Oram. Your Lordships will note that it is not a very large Bill, compared with the size of Bills with which the noble Lord, Lord Oram, and others of us have had to deal recently. Nevertheless, the noble Lord gave a very detailed explanation and, I think, a very reasonable one—because behind this fairly small Bill lie many important points, and almost all of them were brought out by the noble Lord.
We welcome the main purpose behind this Bill which, as the noble Lord said, is to ratify the 1974 Safety Convention. Its other purpose is to modify and update the Merchant Shipping Acts. It is to be hoped that ratification by the United Kingdom will encourage other maritime nations of the world to do likewise. For our part, we find it most interesting that a special Working Group from the Intergovernmental Maritime Consultative Organisation is continuing to seek a code for nuclear-powered ships and also—which is a point which has not yet arisen, I believe—nuclear-waste carrying ships. Clearly, nuclear power has a future both

1049
on land and at sea, but there are major problems and tiny, we hope, risks of radiation and pollution. It is most encouraging that the Working Group expects to complete the code by the end of 1979. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Oram, may be able to confirm that point, either now or at a later stage today.
I understand that the Working Group which is looking at this problem is making considerable progress. Certainly we are very pleased that it is taking such an interest in this important aspect of safety. So far as we can gather, there are about half a dozen nuclear-powered vessels operating in the world at present and, of course, that number is bound to rise.
Another point which was made clear in the Bill is that provisions are laid down concerning processed grain and bulk grain, when carried on board ship. The noble Lord, Lord Oram, mentioned problems of shifting grain. I understand there are also problems concerning fumes being given off by processed grain. Those fumes, of course, involve problems of safety, together with the low flashpoint of fuels and also of hydrocarbon cargoes, which the noble Lord mentioned. We believe that such cargoes require very clear and specific safety rules. It is encouraging that the United Kingdom, as a leading member of the IMCO, is showing the way to implementing the provisions of the 1974 SOLAS Conference. We have made various inquiries in connection with this Bill from organisations representing those who work in the Merchant Navy, among them the National Union of Seamen and organisations covering Merchant Navy and airline officers. These are just some of the organisations which represent seafarers and all those who work in the Merchant Navy, both afloat and on shore. Every organisation that has taken part in the talks, and is currently taking part in the Working Party, is of the opinion that the Conventions, and indeed the Bill before us this afternoon, are a team effort and, we hope, are uncontroversial.
My noble friend Lord Inchcape, who is to follow in the debate this afternoon, is, of course, President of the General Council of British Shipping and we look forward to hearing what he has to say to the House. For my part, I think that it is invidious to go on at length on a subject of which I have but cursory knowledge at
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the moment. Nevertheless, I hope that my noble friend Lord Inchcape and the House will permit me to encourage the passage of this Bill through your Lordships' House for two reasons.
First, in 1975 the United Kingdom had under its flag 3,700 ships, and it seems that their gross registered tonnage was of the order of 33.2 million tons. This indicates our position in the forefront of maritime trading nations. My second reason for welcoming this Bill is that as leaders of the world merchant fleet we should do everything possible to strengthen the IMCO, and to discourage the unilateral action by other members of the organisation, to which the noble Lord, Lord Oram, referred. We believe that this Bill goes a considerable way to tighten up various safety codes and codes of practice. We also believe that the United Kingdom wishes to fulfil its part in ratifying the 1974 SOLAS Convention, and to that extent all of us here welcome and support the Bill which is before us today.
3.22 p.m.
The Earl of INCHCAPE: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Oram, for moving the Second Reading of this Bill. As chairman of a major shipping company, I must declare both an obvious interest and, indeed, a keen responsibility for the safety of ships. But it is in my capacity as President of the General Council of British Shipping that I should like to give your Lordships the views of British shipowners on this Bill.
I can confirm that British shipowners welcome this Bill, which will enable the United Kingdom to ratify the International Convention for the Safety of Life at Sea, 1974. Our shipping industry fully supported the concept promoted by Her Majesty's Government, through the Intergovernmental Maritime Consultative Organisation—IMCO—in 1974, known as the "Simple SOLAS" Conference, as has already been said. The Convention that was concluded by that conference consolidated all the previous amendments to the 1960 Safety Convention which had been adopted by IMCO, but which had not taken effect owing to the recognised deficiencies in the procedure for amending technical regulations in IMCO Conventions. As the noble Lord, Lord Oram, pointed out, a particularly important and

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welcome feature of the 1974 Safety Convention is that it embodies an accelerated amendment procedure, which should help to ensure that the 1974 Convention can be kept up to date.
The noble Lord referred to the current trend towards the introduction of unilateral regulations which are at variance with internationally agreed standards. This is a matter of extreme concern to the shipping industry, which, by virtue of its international nature, requires the widest possible international agreement on matters affecting the construction, design and equipment of ships. I would confirm that the spread of unilateral legislation, such as that to which the noble Lord referred, would be highly disruptive to the efficiency of the industry. It is to be hoped therefore that, as envisaged by the noble Lord, the early entry into force of the 1974 Convention will contain the spread of unilateralism.
As the noble Lord, Lord Oram, said, this Bill also includes the means whereby enabling effect can be given to the provisions of the regulations for nuclear ships in the 1974 Convention. Again, this is most welcome to the shipping industry. Prospects for the economic viability of nuclear propulsion have clearly increased in recent years. However, it is also clear that shipowners will not be able to introduce nuclear propulsion until and unless the international political climate permits. For this purpose, further provisions dealing with the safety and environmental aspects of this problem need to be developed, and to receive wide international acceptance. It is therefore satisfactory that these questions are under active consideration at IMCO, and this Bill will facilitate the implementation by Her Majesty's Government of such provisions as may be agreed internationally.
I would re-emphasise that the British shipping industry would welcome the earliest possible ratification of this Convention by our Government. As the noble Lord, Lord Oram, stated, to date only four States have so ratified this Convention, and experience suggests that, for a variety of reasons, ratification as required by 25 States, the combined merchant fleets of which constitute not less than 50 per cent. of the world gross tonnage, is unlikely to be achieved rapidly. I would therefore most strongly urge that
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Her Majesty's Government take every measure at their disposal—and these are still quite considerable—to try to persuade other Governments to ratify this Convention as soon as possible. In the field of maritime safety, the United Kingdom Government and our shipping industry, who collaborate most closely and effectively in this matter, are still in the vanguard. I am sure that your Lordships will agree with me that Her Majesty's Government should continue to give the world a lead in this very important field.
3.27 p.m.
Lord ORAM: My Lords, I should like to thank warmly the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, and the noble Earl, Lord Inchcape, for the welcome which they have given to this Bill and for the informed comments which they have made upon it. The noble Lord, Lord Lyell, congratulated the two of us on the shortness of the Bill, and I think he was comparing it with the Patents Bill. Lying behind the Bill there is a document which is almost as formidable as the Patents Bill. But, fortunately, in terms of legislation, that need not worry us unduly in that, as I explained, this Bill is quite short and is comparatively simple.
The noble Lord, Lord Lyell, referred to dangerous cargoes which are dealt with in Chapter 7 of this document. Of course, powers already exist in legislation to deal with these dangerous cargoes and those powers are continued by the Bill which we are now considering. But I would confirm one point that he asked me about, that there is a Working Group of IMCO dealing with nuclear ships and I understand that it should complete its work quite shortly.
The noble Earl, Lord Inchcape, speaking, as he did, with his authority as President of the General Council of British Shipping, underlined the urgency which I attempted to outline to your Lordships, not least because we need ratification by 25 countries and, if we do our job as soon as we can, that will enable us to urge the others to go and do likewise. I think there is no need for me to add further to the debate, except once again to express my appreciation of the comments of those who have spoken.
Lord HAWKE: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, can he give us some examples of what is processed grain?
Lord ORAM: My Lords, I asked this question myself when I was inquiring into these matters, and was told that it is like little marbles. What the process is, I do not know. But it transforms the grain into tiny balls, which are equally capable of shifting as the seas become rough. But that kind of cargo is not covered by existing legislation. Just what the process is I would not know, but it transforms the grain into small balls.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDE: My Lords, arising out of this very important question, could the noble Lord say whether the Government themselves are making any representations to the other countries which ought to support the Convention, or whether that is left to general organisations? Are the Government themselves taking any action to help on what is contained in the Bill?
Lord ORAM: My Lords, as I explained, the organisation that is responsible for this is IMCO. We are a leading and active member of that organisation, and it would be through that organisation that we should bring our influence to bear on other member countries.
On Question, Bill read 2ª, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

EEC: 13th REPORT ON REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT FUND
3.31 p.m.
Lord COBBOLD Lord COBBOLD rose to move, That this House takes note of the Thirteenth Report of this session of the European Communities Committee (H.L. 75) on the European Regional Development Fund. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. The Commission published on 23rd June, 1976, a first annual report on the European Regional Development Fund, No. 724/75. It contains a factual account of the way that the Fund was administered in its first year of operation. The report also discusses policy issues which are of great interest to the United Kingdom. A new Commissioner, Signor Giolitti, has, since 6th January, 1977, been in charge of European regional policy. He will be primarily responsible for the preparation of the new proposals about the future of
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the Fund, which are expected to be considered by the Commission and within the Council of Ministers later this year.
Your Committee considers that this is an opportune moment to review the working of the Regional Fund to date and also to discuss questions about the future of EEC regional policy, in good time before decisions fall to be taken in the Commission and the Council.
Sitting concurrently, Sub-Committee II of the House of Commons Select Committee on European Secondary Legislation, et cetera, and Sub-Committee A of the House of Lords Select Committee on the European Communities received oral evidence from the Departments of Industry and the Environment, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland; the European Investment Bank; the Highlands and Islands Development Board; and Mr. Evans, Chairman of the European Parliament Committee on Regional Policy. They also received written evidence from a number of sources, including the CBI and the TUC, and other interested bodies and individuals. Dr. Helen Wallace's intended oral evidence had to be submitted in writing, owing to a train accident and train delays. The evidence, both written and oral, is printed with the report. In addition, the sub-committees have been greatly assisted in their deliberations by Lord Thomson, until recently the EEC Commissioner responsible for regional policy, and by Dr. Rugiero, the then Director-General concerned. I am very sorry that in the end Lord Thomson was unable to speak today. He had hoped to do so but he had other urgent public duties.
This has been the third occasion upon which the sub-committees of the two Houses have met concurrently to consider matters relating to scrutiny of Commission proposals. If I may express a personal view, though I believe that it is generally shared by my colleagues, the experiment of the two sub-committees sitting concurrently has been very rewarding. It saves the time of witnesses and Parliamentary staff; it avoids a great deal of duplication; and we have found the somewhat different approach very helpful. The terms of reference and the practice of the two sub-committees differ and the reports made by the two Select Committees need not be identical, the practice of this

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House being to go in more depth into detail and recommendations. The fact that the two reports are, on this occasion, not identical, though they are in no way contradictory, does not, in my view, invalidate the usefulness of the "concurrent" exercise.
As chairman of the concurrent sessions, I should like to say how much I and other Members of Sub-Committee A of this House appreciated the contributions made by Members of another place, particularly by the chairmen of their Select Committee and Sub-Committee, Sir John Eden and Mr. John Roper. Without that contribution, the report which we are considering today would have been much less thorough than I hope your Lordships will find it. I should also like to express warm thanks to all who helped in the preparation of the report: members of Sub-Committee A, witnesses, our very well informed specialist adviser, Mr. Rhodes, and the Parliamentary staff of both Houses.
Before turning to the main conclusions of the report, I should like to add that Sir John Eden and I had the pleasure a few weeks ago of an informal meeting with Signor Giolitti, the new Commissioner concerned, and explaining to him the nature of the Scrutiny Committees and also some of our general conclusions. The House will be aware that in the allocation of duties in the new Commission, Signor Giolitti was, unlike his predecessor, entrusted with rather wider responsibilities as regards other related matters, including the Social Fund.
The Regional Development Fund aims to contribute, along with other Community funds and national policies, to a reduction in regional imbalances and disparities. This means promoting a more rapid rate of economic growth in the economically backward regions of the Community and, in so doing, removing regional disparities in unemployment, investment, incomes and migration. With wide economic and social disparities in the regions of the Community, average incomes per capita are five times higher in the richest region than they are in the poorest.
It is laid down that Fund assistance must be co-ordinated with national regional aid programmes. As explained in paragraphs 14 and 15 of the report, assistance can be given, under slightly
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different arrangements, to both industrial projects and infrastructure projects; that is to say, to such things as road construction, drainage, water supply, et cetera. To be eligible for Fund assistance, projects must fall within the framework of regional development programmes prepared by Member States, and industrial projects must also be in receipt of national regional financial aid. Total assistance to such projects must not exceed the aid limits set by the Commission. Applications for grant may be submitted only by Member States. The Community then makes its choice from a selection of the projects already in receipt of public money.
In 1975, the net benefit to the United Kingdom, after taking account of United Kingdom contributions to the Community budget, could be valued at about 13·5 per cent. of the Fund. This proportion is declining as the United Kingdom contributions to the budget increase through the transitional entry period. By 1978, the net benefit to the United Kingdom is expected to be near 9 per cent. of the value of the Fund if the present quota continues. Detailed figures for the regional distribution of the United Kingdom allocation from the Fund are shown in Table 1 of the Department of Industry's written evidence. The net benefit of the Regional Fund to the United Kingdom could disappear altogether if further enlargement of the Community brought in mainly poorer States with large regional problems and this were to lead to substantial changes in the quotas which would be only partially matched by changes in budget contributions. However, the net benefit received by individual Member States should not necessarily be the overriding consideration.
The Fund is not permitted to lead Member States to reduce their own regional programmes. On the contrary, the resources of the Fund must complement these efforts. This is the so-called "additionality" principle—an instance of Community jargon to which I shall return later. All Member States, including the United Kingdom, accept this principle but, for the reasons given in paragraphs 14 and 15 of the report, they are not in a position to show that it is, in practice, being completely observed.
The Regional Fund's contribution for both infrastructure and industrial projects in the United Kingdom amounts to only

1057
about 10 per cent. of domestic expenditure on regional aid to industrial projects alone. This proportion reduces to between 4 and 5 per cent. if net receipts from the Fund are considered rather than gross receipts.
I can briefly summarise as follows the main findings and conclusions set out in the report before your Lordships. In the light of the evidence which the Committee received, we felt that the Regional Fund had made a good start considering its very limited resources. The technical arrangements in Brussels are efficient and speedy. Largely because of limited resources, the Fund has not yet fulfilled the high hopes with which it was launched. The obvious problems include, first, a need for more co-ordination in Community policy in all its aspects on the subject of regional development. The new Commissioner's more general oversight over other funds, to which I have already referred, should be helpful from this point of view. The second point is the desirability of closer contact between the Commission and local authorities in the Member countries, though we felt that the Fund must continue to deal through national Governments and within national programmes.
Thirdly, there is the need to simplify the complicated problem of additionality, which would take too long to describe in this debate but which is discussed in some detail in paragraphs 14 to 17 of the Report. I shall just quote paragraph 17 and a little from paragraph 18. This is in somewhat lighter vein but I found it a convincing explanation of the problem.
"The problem of additionality was well illustrated by a member of one of the Sub-Committees. His birthday fell on Boxing Day and he often received one present at Christmas time from friends rather than two. He might speculate that had his birthday fallen in June he would have received two presents rather than one. But the value of the two hypothetical presents was not known in relation to the value of the one present actually received, not even by his friends, since the two presents were never actually purchased. The loss, if any, of having a birthday at Christmas could never be known.
"The situation is exactly the same with the Regional Fund. National governments cannot prove, and may not even know, what they would have spent in the regions had the Regional Fund not existed."
With your Lordships' knowledge of his facility for making extremely shrewd remarks in lighter vein you may be able to
1058
identify the noble Viscount who has passed quite a number of unhappy Christmases!
My Lords, we felt that, to do any real good and to remove the unreal element in existing arrangements, the Fund should he considerably larger. We saw advantage in a review of the Fund on a one-year basis in 1977 and thereafter at three-yearly intervals. We commended extension of the already close co-operation with the European Investment Bank. Among other ideas mentioned was the possibility, admittedly not without its difficulties, of the European Investment Bank helping to cover exchange risks. We saw an important public relations question: it needs to be better known in the areas concerned that the Regional Development Fund is actually helping to complete a project. We were told of some cases in which a notice was put up saying, "This project is assisted by the Regional Development Fund". It is these problems to which the Committee felt that special attention should be given in the immediate future. The Committee concluded that regional policy was a valuable part of Community activities and that while one could not expect everything to be solved in the early years the Fund had great potential for encouraging Community cohesion.
The future development of the Regional Fund obviously depends to a large extent on the amount of Community budget funds available for the purpose and the proportion of such funds which the various Community bodies apply to the purpose. In this connection the recent debate in this House about the Common Agricultural Policy and green money, showing the heavy and increasing burden of monetary compensation amounts on the budget, is obviously relevant. Relevant, too, is the possibility of further accessions to the Community in the future, and the apparent probability that new Members might be countries with difficult regional problems. We considered any detailed discussion of these matters to be outside the scope of the present report.
If I may close with a personal view, it is this: as a strong supporter of the European Community, I always expected difficulties in the early years, particularly in economic matters. As a one-time practitioner in the monetary field I have never believed in

1059
monetary union, as opposed to close co-operation between monetary authorities, until a considerable degree of political and economic union has been achieved. To speak of a common currency or even of a common monetary policy without a large degree of fiscal and general economic harmonisation is a nonsense. But the aim of integration has always been, and remains, a long-term aim and, although some things have gone wrong, nobody should underrate the progress made. In my view, regional development is a concrete instance of where progress can and should be made towards the long-term aims. If a definite regional policy can become a more general part of Community thinking it is one way—and, in my judgment, an effective way—of moving in the direction of economic integration. I very much agree with recent comments by Mr. Jenkins that if the Community does not move steadily forward in that direction it will move backwards. It is with these general long-term and overall aims in mind that I commend this Report to the House. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House takes note of the Thirteenth Report of this session of the European Communities Committee (H.L. 75) on the European Regional Development Fund.—(Lord Cobbold.)
3.48 p.m.
Lord ELTON: My Lords, I must apologise at the outset to your Lordships for not being in the Chamber for the very first moments of this debate. This was due to the fact that my personal early warning system was not airborne as soon as might have been expected. In that perhaps I have something in common with the House.
My Lords, we must look at this in the context of the whole history of Europe and recall that the original motive for the foundation of the Communities was to bind the nations of Europe so closely together that never again could they drag themselves and each other, and with them the rest of mankind, into a world war. A regional policy is a corollary of that. The binding together of the nations makes nationalism impotent. The regional policy in fact dissolves it and makes it benign, and nationalism has fuelled so many wars and wrecked so many lives
1060
that if Europe succeeds in nothing else than in taming that, Europe will have been a success.
We should thank the noble Lord, Lord Cobbold, for the opportunity of this debate, and indeed his Committee for the considerable amount of very thorough and lucid work which they have done in making this report. It is in effect a report on a report, since it reviews a report upon which the European Parliaments Committee on regional policy, regional planning and transport in the person of M. Delmotte had already advanced its own report, which was in turn debated in the European Parliament on the 16th December. Therefore this ground has been examined in considerable detail over a fairly long period by a large number of experts.
It has the incidental peculiarity that although it is a review of the first three years of the operation of the Fund, in fact of course the Fund had been operative for only some five months when the report which this report looks at was written. It is a complex operation, if not a big one. The European Regional Development Fund disposes, as the noble Lord, Lord Cobbold, has said, of some 500 million units of account in a full year, which is only about £200 million for the whole region—a modest sum. In fact, Mr.—now, happily, the noble Lord, Lord Thomson—actually referred to it as a fig leaf, and one cannot get much more modest than that!
My Lords, if the subject is complex, I must apologise for my apparent and evident lack of expertise, but I think there are a number of practical considerations about which even a person with my naivety in these matters can make some useful comment. The aim of the Fund is to reduce the wide discrepancies between the wealth of the different regions. The United Kingdom will be, and is, a net beneficiary to the tune of 13.5 per cent. of the whole Fund, though this is not a very large proportion of our own regional policy allocation of funds. The intention of the Fund was that it should be a magnifier. This, I take it, was the intention behind the principle of additionality. Additionality meant, first, that the policy of the European Fund should follow and reinforce the policy of the national Government; secondly, that it should act as a means of increasing it,

1061
not only by the amount of the aid from the European Fund itself but also by the attraction of external investment funds in response to it.
The noble Lord, Lord Cobbold, quoted a splendid example of the difficulty of measuring its effect. I can only say that the House is fortunate that the noble Viscount, Lord Amory, did not have his birthday on leap year's day, when the difficulty would have been even more acute. But if the intention is to encourage investment, and hence employment in less developed areas, by adding to investment programmes already undertaken in the knowledge that such additional aid may become available, this does not happen in practice, because, first, Her Majesty's Government can make application only in respect of investment programmes that already exist; secondly, there is then no certainty that such application will be granted and aid given. The investor, therefore, whether in the public or private sector, must make his decision on the assumption that such additional aid may not be forthcoming. All these disincentives are common to all the countries in the Community to one degree or another. But especially in the United Kingdom it is apparent that, despite the really remarkably rapid response in cash to applications—and I think one must congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Thomson, as he now is, and those who helped him in Europe, on the bureaucratic efficiency with which this was done—it appears not to be possible for Her Majesty's Government to do other than make a full grant of the whole of the aid available on any project before recommending it for support from the European Fund. There may be specifically European administrative reasons for this, and I hope the noble Lord opposite will make these clear when he comes to reply.
Under the circumstances two factors then operate. First, the Community's own rules against topping up aid to any particular region above a prescribed limit that may already have been reached inhibit the addition of European aid to the aid programme which has been advanced for consideration for grant from the Fund. Secondly, there is an existing sharp restraint, and a very proper one, on Government expenditure. So the
1062
result is that Her Majesty's Government do not pass on specifically the subventions from the Fund to the projects which are to be aided, but merely take them, as a reimbursement of their own original grant, directly back into the Government pocket.
This process then does little to stimulate outside investment; since it cannot be counted on when the investment decision is being taken, it does nothing to make the intended beneficiaries aware of the effects of the Community's regional policy, and I use that phrase ill-advisedly, because, of course, as we shall see, there is no specific regional policy in the Community as yet, but there is an expression of it, among other functions, by the ERDF. This effect is hidden since the cheques never actually reach them in a recognisable European form. And it does very little indeed to stimulate our own Government to a more active stimulation of investment in the development areas, since the relationship between their own aid and European aid is tied to any particular project only by a simple book transaction carried out ex post facto. It does, it is true, result in a small net inflow of cash to our own development budgets, and in the form in which it is used for infrastructure programmes it results in a modest alleviation of the burden of rates borne by local and other authorities. But this is not additionality, and I believe additionality to be important, because it should result in more investment positively directed to where it is most needed.
I believe that two obstructions to this effect can be removed. The first is in the power of the European Commission and Parliament, and that is a change of the topping up regulation. There is to be a review of the ERDF regulation at the end of 1977, and I believe that this should be a first consideration when that is undertaken. Secondly, I think it is fair to note that, whereas there is a necessary very harsh constraint on the Government on expenditure of their funds, which are in fact our own taxes, where the money is available from other sources that constraint can be relaxed.
I believe that the process should be, first an application by an investor to Her Majesty's Government, and I am thinking principally, of course, of the private

1063
sector, but not only; secondly, a decision by Her Majesty's Government on their own grant aid; thirdly, an application by Her Majesty's Government to the ERD Committee for aid; fourthly, a decision by the ERD Committee on whether or not to grant aid from the Fund. Then that decision should be passed by Her Majesty's Government to the investor who should then be able to make his decision on whether or not to go ahead, knowing two things; first whether aid of both kinds is available, and, secondly, if European aid is available, then that should be paid to him or made available to him in addition to Her Majesty's Government's aid. This might marginally increase expenditure by Her Majesty's Government, but not from taxation, and it will help to reverse the present damaging trend of investors to keep away deliberately from depressed areas, as they will find better infrastructure elsewhere and cannot count on extra aid if they come to the depressed areas. The effects of this trend were very ably and sharply pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Cobbold.
I should like, if I may, to direct your Lordships' attention also to the EEC Consultative Document associated with this Report, (the reference is R1611/76) where in Annexe III the first graph is an illustration of the relative changes in GDP per head expressed in units of account. I note only that in 1960, if the average throughout Europe is taken as 100, the United Kingdom index stood at 117 and that of Denmark at about 112. Today the Danish index has risen to 145, and ours has sunk to almost exactly half of that, to 72. In other words, only Italy and Ireland are below us in what you might call the wealth table, and expressed as a graph it is only too clear, if you extrapolate the current figures, we shall be below them before very long.
My Lords, the Fund is small. The policy in consequence must be weak, but its aims are absolutely vital. The report points out that the expansion of the Community now by the inclusion of other countries, other less developed countries, will dilute it even further, and I think that this should be very much in the minds of your Lordships and their representatives when it comes to considering current applications to expand the European Community. Both economically
1064
and, if I may so put it, in the realm of ideology we are not in a strong position to add to the size of the Community, since this will, I believe, dilute not merely the economic effects of the regional policy, from which we should be net beneficiaries, but also blow a very cold wind on the little plant which is beginning to grow up of a common and self-conscious European identity.
In paragraph 36 of the report the Committee sum up the choices open to Europe in the region of this policy. The first is to abandon it. The second is to extend it only by a year and keep it on probation. The third is to increase it substantially and to develop new aspects. I think that we must endorse that view, which is the Committee's view, which says that the third is the proper course. I think it is important that this should be done in the light of our own regional policy, which has to be notified to the Community under Article 6 by the end of this year.
I think it is important that when the Articles of Regulation of the Fund are reviewed after the end of this year we should consider two points. The first, as I have already said, is the removal of the limit on topping up at least to allow an increase above existing ceilings equivalent to the amount of the Fund's own subvention in any one region. The other, and more important, is that we should now consider setting up a structure of institutions for making and carrying out a policy which is truly regional throughout Europe. At present we have the ERDF, the European Development Bank, FEOGA and the Social Fund—a large number of not altogether integrated or co-operating funds, which have effects which are not entirely at random. I accept that there is a frequent exchange of information within the structure of Europe, but there must be a formal structure with formal aims carried out flexibly under the direction of Europe.
It would not be generous to conclude without repeating that I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Thomson, has had a significant period of office in the Community, to the extent that M. Delmotte suggested that the Fund should be called the Thomson Fund. I only hope that his successor, Signor Giolitti is equally forthright, active and successful.

AIRBORNE EARLY WARNING
4.2 p.m.
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Defence. The Statement is as follows:
"Following the NATO Ministerial meeting on 25th March, the Government have given further consideration to their position on the provision of these aircraft to meet the requirements of the Alliance. As I made clear at the meeting, we have already agreed to two postponements of the NATO decision which is urgently required if timely provision of airborne early warning cover for the NATO area is to be achieved.
"As the House knows, we have maintained an alternative national development based on the Nimrod aircraft as a fall-back option in case of failure by NATO to agree on a system for the whole Alliance. This development has so far been funded at a low level, but if it is not to be delayed further a substantial increase in the rate of expenditure on it is now necessary. In the light of the continued uncertainty about the procurement of the AWACS system by NATO, we have decided that we must now go ahead with the Nimrod system, which, subject to the successful conclusion of the necessary contract negotiations, will now proceed to full development.
"In taking this decision the Government have taken full account of the arguments put forward in NATO for further delay to enable outstanding questions on the procurement of the Boeing E3A AWACS aircraft to be further studied. Our decision to go ahead with Nimrod, however, will give the Alliance an urgently needed and modern airborne early warning capability to replace the Shackletons now operating in the United Kingdom Air Defence Region and in the Eastern Atlantic and Channel areas. Our decision does not exclude the possibility of a collective NATO solution to the requirement. In developing the Nimrod system we shall aim to secure the maximum inter-operability and compatibility
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between Nimrod and whatever additional airborne early warning aircraft the Alliance may eventually decide to procure. I suggested to my NATO colleagues that a single NATO airborne early warning force, though it would be an ideal solution, is not the only way in which the airborne early warning requirement could be met. We shall continue to work for arrangements which will secure maximum military effectiveness from the resources which the Alliance eventually decides to devote to the airborne early warning task".
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
4.5 p.m.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, the House is grateful to the noble Lord for repeating that Statement. First, I should like to express regret that NATO has again demonstrated its inability to agree on a common policy. I believe that all sides of this House remain dedicated to the notion of standardisation of equipment. Is it true that it is principally the Germans who have reservations about committing themselves to the AWACS system, and, if so, can the noble Lord tell us what their reservations are?
We can express considerable satisfaction about the employment implications in this decision. I believe that it gives employment to about 1,500 people for a matter of five years. Can the noble Lord tell us how this would compare with the part of the AWACS contract that this country would receive, because I do not think it is inconsiderable? We must accept that in pursuing the course that is suggested here we are laying ourselves open to being accused of parochialism and jingoism, whereas I would hope that we could demonstrate our readiness to submerge our national interests in the wider interests of the Alliance as a whole. Therefore, is there any chance of Britain persuading her allies to join her in the course that she will pursue? Also, can the noble Lord expand a little on what is meant by the sentence in the Statement:
"Our decision does not exclude the possibility of a collective NATO solution to the requirement"?

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Can the noble Lord tell us the relative technical merits of the two systems? For example, does the Nimrod system operate overland and does the Boeing system operate over water, or is it the specialised nature of the two systems which is referred to in the Statement where it says:
"… that a single NATO airborne early warning force … is not the only way in which the airborne early warning requirement could be met"?
Can the noble Lord tell us how the timings of these two developments compare? For example, when will the Nimrod system be ready? I believe that so far it has only been tested on the ground.
Clearly, we are glad to hear that there is to be inter-operability and compatibility, however much we may dislike those rather ponderous words. However, does that mean that we could envisage the possibility of Nimrod and AWACS aircraft operating side by side in a complementary role? Can the noble Lord tell us what compromises are envisaged in the development when the Statement says:
"In developing the Nimrod system we shall aim to secure the maximum inter-operability and compatibility between Nimrod and whatever additional airborne early warning aircraft the Alliance may eventually decide to procure"?
I apologise for firing so many questions at the noble Lord but they are relevant to the Statement. Finally, can he tell us to what rate of expenditure we are committing ourselves by taking this decision? I am certain that we have to take this step, but we should like to know how deeply committed we are and what, for example, would happen if, in a few months' time, it was decided, after all, to reach agreement on ordering the AWACS system. When is the next decision point and when will the next discussion of this matter take place?
The Earl of KIMBERLEY: My Lords, we on these Benches should also like to thank the noble Lord for repeating the Statement, and congratulate his right honourable friend the Secretary of State on making this decision. It may well turn out to be a very good decision. We should congratulate British Aerospace on concluding their first contract since they have been nationalised—it may be a good omen.
I should like to ask the noble Lord one or two questions. The present system
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is installed only in a Comet airframe. When it is due to fly? Secondly, when will the system be installed in the first Nimrod airframe and when will that fly? In view of what the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, said, as we have now made a stand on using our own aircraft, will the Government be able to bring even stronger pressure to bear on the remaining NATO countries to purchase Nimrod themselves? Also is there any chance of exporting it to other countries not in NATO, such as France and Australia? I should also like to repeat something that the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona, mentioned. Can the noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom, enlarge on what he meant by "the possibility of a collective NATO solution"? Lastly, can the noble Lord tell us, now that the decision has been taken to go ahead, how long it will take to equip the United Kingdom defence system?
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I hope that both noble Lords who have questioned me on my Statement will accept that fact that I should very much like to answer them in detail if I could, but the timing of the Statement has been such that I could grasp only the main outlines of the decisions. I should be grateful if perhaps another opportunity might be taken, by way of an Unstarred Question, to enable me to answer in detail the points made to me be the two noble Lords who have questioned me.
However, may I say that we have made it clear all along that a single NATO force would, if it could be established, be the best solution. We believe that. Unfortunately exercises have shown that the Shackleton force, which is now the only element we have for policing the United Kingdom air defence region, is inadequate. A recent exercise has shown that 70 per cent. of aircraft got through undetected. It was because our national need was so great that my right honourable friend insisted on his colleagues in NATO reaching a decision by, originally, I think it was the 25th of March; now it could not be reached until 1st July. That is why I am making the Statement today: because we believe that this particular decision cannot be allowed to drag on.
The noble Lord, Lord Strathcona, mentioned German reservations. Of course I cannot speak for the German

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Government, but the point is that, whereas on this matter I think in many ways they share our view, the actual reapportionment of resources that would have been demanded of them made it necessary for them to think a little further. For this reason we have decided to go ahead and buy the Nimrod variant. There is one point I can perhaps make. The two aircraft, the Boeing and the Nimrod, were designed for rather differing roles. The Boeing was designed mainly for over land operation, and the Nimrod for over sea operation. Their radars, as a result, have different capabilities which could be harmonised but which at the moment are not totally in harmony. The Nimrod is the better aircraft for sea work, and AWACS is the better for over land work. That is what I think my right honourable friend meant when he said a combined Nimrod/AWACS solution might possibly he the best that the Alliance could get.
Lord CARRINGTON: My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that, regardless of whether or not the Government were right about this decision, it is yet another indication of the lack of political will on the part of NATO to come to a decision themselves and to equip and standardise their equipment? When the Statement says that the Government intend to secure the maximum inter-operability and compatibility between any two systems which develop as a result of this, does it mean that there is a possibility that they will not be inter-operable?
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I am speaking without exact knowledge in this highly technical field. I presume it means that what we have to achieve is the maximum degree possible of overlap between the two systems. If the noble Lord wants a more detailed answer, perhaps he could use a different situation. I am perfectly willing to give it, but these are highly technical matters on which I am not at this moment properly briefed.
Lord BEAUMONT of WHITLEY: My Lords, the noble Lord said that maybe we could put down an Unstarred Question, or that another opportunity might be found. In a situation like this, where a tremendous number of highly pertinent questions have had to be asked on a very
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skimpy Statement, is it not the Government's duty to expand in some kind of a much more detailed statement exactly what they are going to do, and exactly what are the implications of this decision? Will the noble Lord please say what the Government's intentions are about producing a detailed statement about this matter in some way?
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I would welcome the opportunity to inform the House in greater detail about the exact technical implications of this decision. I am certain that the usual channels will note what your Lordships have said and will make the necessary arrangements. But it is not simple. I am afraid that these things are not simple, and for this reason I think we should hope that the usual channels will arrange for perhaps a deeper discussion than I can answer today.
Lord ORR-EWING: My Lords, would the noble Lord bear in mind that the vulnerability of this country and Western Europe to low level attack is considerable? The figure he gave us of 70 per cent. getting through was truly alarming. Therefore, any delays are not welcome. Moreover, delays inevitably add to the cost of anything, and therefore it is important that we should get on with the job, and the provision. I understand that it is envisaged that this Nimrod force should eventually be built up to II aircraft. May we be assured that these Nimrods will not be taken from the anti-submarine maritime Nimrod force but will be additional to that? The cuts which the Labour Government have already made are desperately dangerous at a time when the USSR is launching a new nuclear submarine every four weeks, and we should not weaken our maritime surveillance capability by one single aircraft. Can we be assured that that will not suffer as a result of this decision?
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Orr-Ewing, for supporting in the first part of his question the point of view that I took in my statement in answer to questioning. Without a brief in front of me, but from knowledge, I am reasonably certain that I can assure the noble Lord that the maritime Nimrods will not be affected. We have some airframes

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available for immediate conversion. I imagine for that we have to thank the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, for a decision he reached while he was Secretary of State for Defence. If I am wrong, I will inform the noble Lord and the House.
Lord GLADWYN: My Lords, I would not want to turn this in any way into a debate. However, may I ask one question? As I understand it, the Government still think that a collective early warning system in NATO would be the best. As I also understand, they still wish to tend in that direction: they want to achieve that if they can. If it is achievable, is it compatible with the maintenance of the Nimrod system or would it inevitably imply the suppression of Nimrod and the substitution of AWACS? Is it hence to be concluded that when they talk of a collective early warning defence that can only mean AWACS?
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, obviously what is meant is that the two radars are compatible. The airframes are really secondary to the transport of radar.
Lord WIGG: My Lords, would the Minister not agree that there can be no question of transferring the maritime Nimrods to the role of early warning because, although they have the same name, they are really different kinds of animal?
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, the noble Lord is quite correct, except that they would have a common airframe.
Lord SEGAL: My Lords, while fully endorsing the action of Her Majesty's Government in this matter, may I ask whether my noble friend can say if any others of our NATO allies have supported us over the Nimrod issue, or whether this is a totally unilateral action on our part?
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I cannot give that answer because I do not know the whole course of the discussion.
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, we have now spent 17 minutes on this Statement. May I remind the House
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that ministerial Statements are made for information, and brief comments and questions are of course allowed but Statements should not be made an occasion for debate. I suggest that we move on with the original Motion.

EEC: 13th REPORT ON REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT FUND
Debate resumed.
4.20 p.m.
Lord BANKS: My Lords, as we return to the subject of the Regional Development Fund, I wish at the outset to express appreciation of the Select Committee Report, which I found to be a thorough, comprehensive and valuable document. It sets out very clearly the problems surrounding the Fund and its future, and the whole report was presented to us this afternoon most concisely by the noble Lord, Lord Cobbold.
We are coming to the end of the first three years of the Fund and it has now to be reviewed, so this is an appropriate time for us to make our views known and, on looking back, I think we can say that the introduction of the Fund was a significant step in principle. But, as has been pointed out this afternoon, it was a very small step in extent. To realise this we have only to compare the operation of the green pound and the compensatory amounts paid in connection with it with the size of the Development Fund.
We are told that the operation of the green pound system is now causing our food to be subsidised to the extent of about £500 million a year, yet the amount derived by this country per annum from the Development Fund is just about one-tenth of that. The first amount has grown up almost by accident, yet this other planned development is a mere one-tenth of it. And when we bear in mind, too, the effect of inflation on the value of the previously agreed figures, we can understand why the impact of the Fund has been fairly small.
Nevertheless, as has been pointed out, the United Kingdom has been a net gainer. With the enlargement of the Community by the likely introduction of three new

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members—Greece, Spain and Portugal—this advantage will no doubt disappear and the United Kingdom will cease to be a net gainer. However, I agree with the authors of the report that we should not seek to judge the value of the Fund by whether or not we are net gainers; the gross amount which we receive is a mitigation of what we should otherwise have to pay into the Community budget and it is a mitigation for a specific and useful purpose.
I must say that the position in regard to additionality as described in the report and as expounded by the noble Lord, Lord Elton, is to my mind, very unsatisfactory. I quite understand all the difficulties which are explained in the report, but we must emphasise that the Fund was never intended to be a means of first-aid for the budgets of national Governments. I see, in the course of the evidence which it gave to the Select Committee, that the North of England Development Council said:
"Unfortunately, the Fund does not appear to us to guarantee that the money so transferred will necessarily result in increased expenditure in the poorer regions of those Member States."
If the money does not reach the poorer regions, then the whole object of the exercise will have been frustrated. I read somewhere in the report a phrase about the Community having a Regional Fund "but no coherent, comprehensive regional policy", and I am wondering in this connection exactly what the function of the Regional Policy Committee is, and whether at this time it has an overall responsibility for all aspects of regional policy which may be carried out by the Community, and what is the potential of that Committee.
I welcome the fact that the new Commission has decided, as Lord Cobbold reminded us, that one Commissioner should have overall responsibility in this sphere of regional policy and that Signor Giolitti is to be responsible for both the regional and social funds and, as I understand it, for all the impact on regional policy of the various policies pursued in different fields by the Community; in, for example, the five different funds which there are and which can have a bearing on this matter. I am encouraged by the speech which the Commissioner made to the Committee of the European Parlia
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ment on Regional Policy, Regional Planning and Transport on 25th January in which he made it clear that he took this overall responsibility very seriously.
Lord Cobbold referred to the possibility at some future date of economic and monetary union. I agree with him that a great deal has to be done before we can hope to see that, but I believe it is a proper objective to have and that we must seek to arrive eventually, however long it may take, at that position. If we do, there will be a greatly expanded role, I have no doubt, for the Regional Development Fund. Once Governments are no longer able to attempt to correct imbalances within the Community by adjusting the parities of currencies, some other means of doing that will have to be found, and the Regional Fund will clearly have to play a very big part in that. When we reach that point I am sure it will mean that much which is now done in the way of regional policy at national level will have to be transferred to the Community.
With a Fund of the size I am contemplating it would be a question of substitution—the central expenditure would be largely a substitution for national expenditure; but at the present time, with a very small Fund, the principle of additionality is extremely important. Thinking for a moment about this future situation when we have economic and monetary union, I wonder whether then a redistribution of resources by means of capital investment would be sufficient to counter imbalances. I wonder whether perhaps we may have to think at that time of some means of redistribution of income—some means of providing a supplement to income for certain industries in certain regions—in other words, establishing within the Community a kind of Stabex arrangement similar to that already set up under the Lomé Agreement.
But all that is for the long-term future and, coming back to the more immediate future, I would agree with what has been said about the need for a larger Fund. Among other things, in addition to the reasons advanced for that, it would help to balance the very large amount of expenditure on agriculture within the present budget; agriculture takes about 70 per cent. of the present budget of the Community. Secondly, ideally, I should like to see the national quota system ended,

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as indeed the chairman of the Committee of the Parliament on Regional Planning and Transport suggested in his evidence to the Committee. If that is not possible entirely, it may be possible partly, as was foreshadowed in the evidence submitted by Lord Thomson; at least some money could be directly available from the Community and not have to go through the national Government sieve.
I should like to see direct contracts with the regions very much developed, though of course they exist now. Again, I am glad to see that Signor Giolitti lays great stress on the importance of these contracts. But what I am really suggesting is that regional authorities should be able to deal direct. I note that the Highlands Development Board said in the evidence which it submitted:
"While the Board wholeheartedly accepts the principle that Regional Development Fund assistance should be closely related to national and regional plans, it does not digest uncritically the principle that all regional development funds should be channelled through the central ministries of national government. If the Regional Development Fund is to establish itself as an effective instrument for equalising variations in regional prosperity within the EEC, it will have to assert itself as an independent force, working in close co-operation with national regional policies, but in a distinct and supplementary manner."
I would agree with that. It would seem to me that if the regional development plans which are required by the end of this year are submitted to national Governments, with their approval it would be possible for the Community, at any rate in a limited sphere, to deal directly with regional bodies as the Highland Development Board suggests, within the terms of the nationally agreed development plans. The national Government would have some influence and say in order to do that, but would not be the direct channel. To the extent to which we could establish this we would be safeguarding the principle of additionality which we have already mentioned as being vitally important.
The last point I would stress, and I have mentioned it before, is the need for co-ordination and the development of a coherent regional policy. I am suggesting a larger fund and an end, or at least a modification, of the national quota system, some money being directly available from the Community, direct contact with the regions, the regions dealing
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directly with the Community and greater co-ordination than there is at the present time. If we can achieve these things then, from the small beginnings of the first three years' operation, I think we can develop the Regional Development Fund into a powerful economic instrument in the hands of the Community.
4.32 p.m.
Lord SHERFIELD: My Lords, Members of your Lordships' House and of its Sub-Committee as well as Members of the Committee in another place are very much indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Cobbold, for his genial but firm chairmanship of the concurrent meetings which produced this report. The report itself is full and thorough and the noble Lord, Lord Cobbold, and other speakers have covered the ground comprehensively and have left little room for original or novel comment. The point which emerged most clearly from our discussions—and the noble Lord, Lord Banks, has touched on this question—was that the Regional Fund has been operating without the benefit of a regional policy. The Fund came into operation quickly, it has been well administered and the money has gone out notwithstanding the fact that the eligibility for assistance has been rigidly defined. All this is creditable: it has been a good start. But, to ensure the success of a second fund—and those who maintain that a Regional Fund is unnecessary must surely be in a large minority—it is certainly necessary to work out some guidelines.
As the noble Lord, Lord Cobbold, said, there are other activities in the Commission which have an impact on regions and regional policy of which the administration of other Community funds—the Coal and Steel Community Fund, the Social Fund and the Agricultural Assistance Fund—provides examples. There is also the European Investment Bank which has funds and stands ready to help, though there are some rather large obstacles in the way of its doing so. Clearly, the first step in formulating a regional policy is to consider the total effect of all these sources of funds together, and as a result of the reorganisation in Brussels which gives one Commissioner the general oversight of these activities, this step can now be taken. There is no proposal to amalgamate these sources of funds but rather to evaluate their

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combined impact and as far as possible to co-ordinate their application. The receipt of the National Regional Development programmes during this year will offer some concrete foundations on which a policy can be constructed in the Commission.
I refer here to some remarks made by the new Commissioner, Signor Giolitti, to Members of the European Assembly Committee on Regional Policy and Transport. This speech was made on 25th January. It was printed on 24th February, and was received by me this morning, which I think is an example of what might be described as "information drag". This speech by the Commissioner was an encouraging and positive performance. He declared his determination to carry out what he called "the testament of Lord Thomson". He stressed that the Regional Fund was only a tool of policy; he stressed the need for co-ordination of regional policy, avoiding the fragmentation of the past and taking all the sources of help to the regions into account. He laid emphasis on the need for flexibility in both the make-up and the administration of the Fund and he floated the rather interesting idea of a Community reserve in addition to the quotas given to individual Governments which could be used directly to top up various schemes. He also put in a plea for less rigid criteria in applying the Fund, and finally, emphasised the need for closer links with regional authorities. All this seems to me a positive and laudable preliminary approach to the problem and an encouraging one for the future formulation of policy later this year.
It was interesting to hear the suggestions from our witnesses on the form which a Community regional policy might take. The official evidence tended to suggest a step by step approach, but other witnesses, notably Mr. Evans, Chairman of the Regional Policy and Transport Committee of the European Assembly, offered a much more far-reaching scheme. I must say that the gradualist approach seems to me to be the only practicable one. It is clear that the Community will advance towards integrated policies only by building brick by brick, not by trying to make great leaps forward, and the move to the second stage of the Regional Fund cannot be an exception to this.
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Incidentally, just as there is a need, which is now accepted, for the co-ordination of regional policy in the Commission, so there seems to he a need for some change in the committee structure of the European Parliament. Mr. Evans told us that his Committee spent half its time discussing transport questions. There is, no doubt, some historical reason why regional policy and transport were brought together under one committee of the Assembly, but it would now surely be more appropriate that at least the operations of the Regional and Social Funds should be brought under the scrutiny of one committee and that transport should move elsewhere.
My Lords, I wish to make one other general point. It is evident that the move towards the enlargement of the Community is gaining momentum, though no doubt it will proceed by deliberate steps, but enlargement will come about in due course. One of its effects will be to accentuate the need and complicate the formulation of regional policy, since the gap between the prosperous and the penurious regions of the Community will widen. I have heard it said that this will reduce the attractions of a Regional Fund because the United Kingdom will stand to get less out of it. This seems extremely short-sighted. I sometimes fear that we in the United Kingdom are falling into the habit of looking at the development and measuring the success of the European Economic Community purely in terms of the short-term pecuniary benefit to ourselves. Perhaps we are not the only ones.
No doubt there are situations in which we are justified in digging our toes in. But to be in an obdurate minority of one in one field is not the best method of getting our way in other important matters where we have a good case, as some events of the last 48 hours have demonstrated. In any case the regional policy and the Regional Fund do not seem to be matters which justify a policy of maximum selfishness. As I have said, the enlargement of the Community will bring many problems of extreme difficulty, including regional policy, but this is not a good reason for blowing cold on a Regional Fund; on the contrary, it makes such a fund, and a well thought-out policy to guide its use, all the more essential.
4.42 p.m.
Lord TRANMIRE: My Lords, I am very happy to follow a colleague on the Sub-Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Sherfield, in paying tribute to the very able way in which the noble Lord, Lord Cobbold, chaired this committee. It was not a very easy one because it was a novel one, being a Joint Committee of the two Houses. I intervene chiefly because, although I am in complete agreement with my other colleagues on the importance of a regional policy, I have certain reservations on the actual tool of regional policy, as Mr. Giolitti says, the European Regional Fund. I should like to voice that in context, because directly there is a Common Market there is a certain centrifugal effect that tends to draw prosperity to the centre of the Market. In this case the prosperity of the golden triangle in the European Common Market has moved in the following way, as the noble Lord, Lord Thomson of Monifieth, said in his report. In 1970 the gross domestic product per head in Hamburg was live times greater than that in the West of Ireland and Italy. By 1975, presumably at the time when the Regional policy was just beginning to operate, that disparity had grown greater and had become six times greater in Hamburg than in the West of Ireland. Therefore we must look with a rather more critical eye on exactly what has been happening on the development of this regional policy.
My doubt lies in whether the European Regional Development Fund, with its present financial limits and the present principles that guide it, is really the adequate tool for running a European Regional Policy. It is quite true—I realise this and we must all take account of it—that this first report is dealing with the initial period when the Regional Commissioner was finding his feet, and in fact the money was rather slow in coming out of the Commission at the start. But as we say in paragraph 19 of our report, the impact has been very small. The noble Lord, Lord Thomson of Monifieth, with that Scottish restraint, put it I thought even better when he said:
"The resources allocated to the European Regional Development Fund are more modest than would have been ideal."
What has been the impact on the United
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Kingdom Regional policy? We received a memorandum from the Department of Industry and it said that the receipts had been 3 per cent. of our expenditure in the case of industry. When that was put to the noble Lord, Lord Thomson of Monifieth, he was shocked. He said that it was quite wrong. Such are the persuasive powers of the noble Lord—and I wish that he had been here today to have tried those powers on your Lordships—that he said, "No, no, that is quite wrong. It was 10 per cent. If you compare the commitments during this period with the expenditure, it was 10 per cent.".
The Committee then referred this difference of judgment to the Department of Industry. The Department looked at this matter and, as reported on page 26 of the report, stated:
"Commitments by the ERDF, like offers of financial assistance under section 7 of the Industry Act, cover expenditures which may be incurred during more than one year. The relationship between commitments and Government expenditure is therefore not a satisfactory measure of the 'significance' of the Fund."
Notwithstanding that, despite certain objections by one member of the Sub-Committee, paragraph 19 of the report assesses the impact as 10 per cent. of the Fund. If one looks at the Department of Industry's own figures it worked out. It said that in the case of 1975, the period with which we are dealing, if actual receipts from the Regional Fund are compared with expenditure it comes to 1·1 per cent., not 10 per cent. In 1976 the estimate is that it will come to 4·7 per cent., not 10 per cent., and in 1977 the estimate is 7·3 per cent. I must say that I find that a very disappointing result for— as Mr. Giolitti says—this tool of regional policy. Why is it so disappointing?
The three guidelines, as I understand it, for the European Regional Development Fund are, first, that one must work on the basis of a quota. The noble Lord, Lord Banks, talked about some of the drawbacks of the quota. I was very sympathetic to what he said. I find it very difficult to understand why, under the quota system, Ireland and the poorest countries in Europe, with tremendous regional problems, have a percentage share of the cake of less than that of Western Germany, a country, I should have thought, that had no need to go on any form of international assistance.

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It is quite true that under a provision this quota system was altered in favour of Ireland, so that the richer countries had to disgorge, and as I worked it out in the three year period Ireland would be getting 85 million units of account as opposed to Germany's 83 million units. Still, I think that is unfair. I do not believe that this quota system is the right way to deal with a regional fund. Nor do I think that Mr. Giolitti has it right when he says, "We will keep the quota, but then we will have a reserve fund that we may be able to distribute more fairly". That is a point of view I should like your Lordships to consider.
The second principle and guideline which is determining the whole of this is that it must be a Government-to-Government payment. We had evidence from many of the regions in Britain saying that they were not really conscious of the fact that the European Regional Fund was helping because the money went into the Government's hands and they did not see anything of it. If it was infrastructure, is is quite true that it did make a difference to them because it reduced the cost of their borrowing, but not if it was industrial. I think we are landing in a difficulty here—and, again, I was very interested in what the noble Lord, Land Banks, had to say on this point. He said that you must break this down and you must do it so that there is contact between the Regional Commission and the public authorities. There, of course, you come up against the difficulty that you have two judgments of a project: the judgment of the national Government and the judgment of the Regional Commission; and, in order to monitor that, to evaluate a particular project, I think it would require rather more staff than is justified for the European Regional Commission with the present amount of money available. That seems to me to be the dilemma into which you get by changing it from Commission to State and from Commission to authority.
Leaving that, we come now to the great joke of the Regional Fund—additionality. What does "additionality" mean? It means that but for the money received from the Commission this project would not go forward. If your Lordships want light reading, I would recommend that you read the written evidence of the
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North of England Development Council, which appears on page 95 of the report, in which it observes that in the other place the Minister responsible told the House of Commons:
"The projects so far approved are all Government advance factories. Those to be sited … in the Northern Region are …",
and then he gave a list. The evidence goes on to point out that the first one mentioned was
"a land purchase made in Hartlepool in November 1974".
We are talking about money given in November 1975, so I do not know how much additionality you can find in that. The second was,
"a factory announced in January 1973 at Skelton and completed in July 1974",
so there was not very much additionality on that. The third was
"a factory at Stanley … completed in 1973".
The next was
"a factory at Workington … finished in October 1973";
and then there were three other factories, all announced in 1970, on which there was a little work done in 1975. This seems to me to be a completely unjustified way of dealing with it. It may be inescapable—I am not saying that—but do not have a guideline or principle that cannot possibly work.
I would merely say that I think this means that we really must reconsider this. Mr. Hobbs, of the North of England Development Council, makes a judgment on this, and I think I ought to finish on the subject of additonality by quoting it—it is on page 90 of the report—so that it is on record. This is why I say that I find the Select Committee's Report is rather hiding some of the criticism, is a little too complacent and is a little too kind to the working of the Regional Development Fund. One wants to be polite, and I know from what used to happen in the other place that noble Lords are always, if anything, excessively polite, but I think that probably we are being a little too polite to the European Regional Development Fund in this because the North of England Development Council is a very active body. They said:
"We consider that a Fund which transfers money from an EEC budget to a national budget without necessarily increasing the amount spent

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on regional development is, therefore, claiming more than is justifiable when it is called a Regional Development Fund".
That really leads me to try to review what is the position. In paragraph 36 of our report we set out what we consider the three alternatives. I could not quite come to the same conclusions as the rest of the Committee because I interpret the European Regional Fund rather differently from the others. I think there is a very strong case for a European regional policy. What is "regional policy"? It is the co-ordination of regional programmes. It is stimulating the member countries to working more and more to try to reduce the disparity between the regions. I think that for once I would disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Sherfield. I think it is not fair to say that there has been no regional policy but only a regional fund, because the noble Lord, Lord Thomson, did a tremendous amount of work on this idea of a European regional policy, and it is not fair to him to say that there is no regional policy.
Lord SHERFIELD: My Lords, if the noble Lord would forgive my interrupting him, I think it was Lord Thomson himself who made that remark.
Lord TRANMIRE: My Lords, I have already disagreed with some of the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Thomson, and I certainly disagree with that one because I think that in himself he provided a wonderful stimulant for regional policy, through the others. But I believe that if you intend to work this system out by quotas then you do not really need a fund with the additionality factor. I would far rather it was done with a strong regional policy and then have the Commission saying what relief from contribution you should get because of the extent of your regional problems. I think that if you did it in that way, by reducing the contribution by regions, it would solve the problem of Germany wanting to have her slice of the regional cake because it would then be quite clear that a very rich country like Germany was not really needing to have the money from the European Regional Fund. I think this matter has to be considered very quickly because, as other noble Lords have said, f we are going to expand the Community
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by the addition of Greece, Portugal and Spain, it is vitally important that we get the right way of running our regional policy and of financing our regional policy. I think that, with the addition of the other three members, it will be easier to do it by a system of relief from contribution rather than by giving this quota.
The final point I want to make, my Lords, is this—and I hope I will find the majority of your Lordships in agreement with me. There is something terribly wrong, when you have the disparity between prosperity and poverty growing so much all over Europe, to find that we are devoting 72 per cent. of the Community budget to the Common Agricultural Policy and, this year, 5½ per cent. to the European Regional Development Fund.
5 p.m.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLAND (Lord McCluskey): My Lords, may I join with other noble Lords in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Cobbold, for giving us the opportunity to hold this debate this afternoon. We are all indebted to him and to the Scrutiny Committee for the work they have put into the consideration of the First Annual Report on the operation of the Fund. With commendable speed they have produced an excellent report on a difficult topic. In rising to intervene at this stage, I do not want to defend the indefensible, and I hope I will not seem to do so. There are many things that have to be changed and noble Lords have drawn attention to them, particularly the noble Lord who has just sat down. We all acknowledge that changes have to be made. Let me look first at the report itself. It pays tribute, as noble Lords did, to the smooth administrative operation of the Fund during its first year. Applications have been selected, submitted and approved within a matter of weeks, as have payments from the Fund. The managers of the Regional Fund have benefited from the experience of the Community with other funds and have avoided some of the pitfalls. This is something upon which we, as a Government, and, I hope, as a House, will join in congratulating the administrators of the Fund.
The Scrutiny Committee referred to the division of the British share, if I may so call it, between assisted regions in the

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United Kingdom. I want to make this point: in accordance with the Regulation (Article 3) the money must be concentrated on projects in the Special Development Areas, Development Areas and Northern Ireland; but Intermediate Areas are also eligible and have received assistance from the Fund—some 10 per cent. of United Kingdom commitments. I hope that noble Lords will agree that is right.
The Commission's report and the report of the Scrutiny Committee, and noble Lords in their speeches this afternoon, have dealt with the question, the will-o'-the-wisp, if you like, of additionality. This is the concept that the Fund should enable more to be done for the regions than would be done in its absence. It is a principle which the Government and other Governments accept. Nevertheless, there are compelling reasons why the money from the Fund cannot be given in all cases to the promoters of particular projects; and the Regulation itself specifically provides that it is for Governments to decide how the money shall be used.
Turning first to industrial projects, I understand that no member-country of the community pays the Fund receipts on top of (that is, in addition to) national aids. We do not do so for three reasons. The first is that the two subsidies—one from our own regional development programme and aids, and the other from the Fund—might carry the total beyond the ceiling laid down by the Community and agreed by ourselves. In that context, I might mention that the noble Lord, Lord Elton, spoke of the possibility of changing the topping-up Regulation. I think that the aid ceiling derives from the Treaty of Rome itself (Articles 92 to 94) and from the Commission's activities under those articles relating to State aids.
The second reason is that projects selected for submission to the Fund are those which comply with the Community's criteria as contained in the Regulation. They are not necessarily, in terms of our own regional policy, the most meritorious. We cannot readily accept a system in which there is arbitrary discrimination in the treatment given to projects that we see as of equal merit. That would constitute unfair competition and might destroy some of the employment that national aids were creating. Thirdly,
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the Community system requires that only projects which have already received national aid can qualify for the Fund's assistance. This means that the subsidy already paid or submitted has been enough to encourage investment to take place. In that sense, it will be unnecessary to pay a further subsidy on top.
I might refer to the other matter spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Elton: his suggestion about changing the procedure for application. That suggestion will be considered (as will everything else that has been mentioned today) but my preliminary reaction is that the investor might be unwilling to face the extra delay likely to result from adopting such a procedure.
Lord ELTON: My Lords, I think that in fairness to the noble Lord, Lord Thomson, and his men, to reiterate what I have said earlier, the delay is quite an astonishingly short one in bureaucratic terms. I hope that the noble Lord will bear that in mind when weighing that in the balance.
Lord MCCLUSKEY: My Lords, I do bear that in mind and I am happy to accept it; but perhaps investors might shy away from any procedure which might make delay less endurable.
My Lords, turning from the industrial projects to infrastructure projects, the Fund's receipts are paid to the sponsoring body, whether a local authority, water authority or other public organisation. These receipts enable those authorities to reduce the cost of their borrowing and thus contribute to the regions' well-being. There is a directness about the application of the Fund's money there. If it were not necessary to limit the resources being devoted to public expenditure, we should be prepared to consider authorising additional projects to match the receipts of the Fund; but at the present time this is impracticable. I think I can properly say that public authorities of various kinds are taking an increased interest in the Fund as they see the possibility of direct benefit; and we welcome this interest.
The Commission have recognised that the ways in which we handle these matters are consistent with the principle of additionality as embodied in the Regulation. I would refer noble Lords to

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paragraph 53, page 16 of the First Annual Report itself. It says:
"… the Fund's task is not necessarily to make more aid available to each investment, … but to increase the total amount of new investment undertaken. The difference between these two concepts should be borne in mind …".
I recognise however that the Scrutiny Committee have put their finger on an important point when they say that it is difficult to demonstrate what additionality has been achieved. In order to demonstrate that the principle has been complied with there would have to be clear evidence of what would have happened as well as what did happen. I cannot hope to express this problem any more clearly than did the Scrutiny Committee in paragraphs 17 and 18; and I will not attempt to do so. The House was moved by the plight of the noble Viscount whose birthday fell on Boxing Day. Perhaps on another occasion consideration might be given to awarding him an official birthday. We certainly get from that example a clear illustration of the difficulties in dealing with additionality.
We are glad that the Scrutiny Committee's report recognises these problems and acknowledges that the solution adopted by Her Majesty's Government—that is to say, to increase regional expenditure overall; for instance, through the Advance Factory Programme—is reasonable. In this context I would remind the House that the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced in September 1975 that he was taking into account receipts from the Fund in setting the size of the Advance Factory Programme which he then announced.
I turn briefly to regional development programmes. These are intended to have an important role in the administration of the Regional Fund by providing a development context for consideration of individual applications for assistance. An outline of the desired content of these programmes has been prepared by the Community and was published in the Official Journal on 24th March, 1976. Clearly defined plans for the development of particular areas have an important part to play in guiding the progress of areas changing from a heavy dependence on agriculture to a more industrialised economy. The United Kingdom regional problem, on the other hand, is largely the problem of areas which industrialised early. Their long-established industries
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are now being modernised and demand for labour is falling. In that context, we offer financial incentives, some automatic and others selective, to encourage new industry to provide new jobs. We do not know far in advance what new projects will come forward. Infrastructure in these problem areas needs some renewal and expansion; this is planned and carried out by the different public authorities concerned in response to local requirements. Thus, both for industry and infrastructure these development processes do not lend themselves to comprehensive planning of the same kind which may be possible in primarily agricultural areas.
This is the background to the regional development programme which the Government have sent to the Commission. It is a substantial document, and noble Lords may have seen it published in Trade and Industry last month, when it was published in three instalments. In preparing that programme, Departments consulted the various public authorities concerned. I am pleased to be able to acknowledge the help which they gave, especially in identifying projects which are possible candidates for future Fund applications. Our document sets out the economic background, the general objectives of regional policy, the various measures and the financial resources on a general United Kingdom basis and goes on to deal in some detail with individual regions. The document necessarily deals in broad terms with the types of project which may be put forward for contribution from the Fund; none the less, it provides the context for our selection, and Community consideration, of the applications which will be made. At this stage I am less hopeful than the Committee was (and I refer to paragraphs 26 and 44) about the benefits which may result from the system of regional development programmes.
As we have seen, the year covered by the Annual Report is 1975, and we are all now involved in thoughts regarding the future of the Fund which is due to be reviewed in the course of this year. But in the light of some of the criticisms which have fallen from the noble Lord, Lord Tranmire, I want to emphasise what is said in the first sentence of the Annual Report:
"It must be stressed that the Fund is not to be confused with Community regional policy."

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Before we can decide in the future how the resources available can make the best contribution, a Community regional policy must be evolved, otherwise the Fund—and other funds—is operating in a vacuum, with no stated objectives and no way of measuring how far these are achieved by the projects to which it contributes.
As we have also just been reminded, the Annual Report states that regional disparities between the Member States are increasing, rather than decreasing, and it is this problem with which the Community must try to deal. For some of the Member States, as I have already said, the problem is one of converting agricultural areas to industry, but for us it is a question of industrial renewal, and both facets are important to the future prosperity of the Community. This week we have taken the opportunity to bring our problems—their character—to the attention of visiting members of the EEC Regional Policy Committee, who are visiting some of the areas of the United Kingdom which are worst affected by regional problems. This follows a similar visit paid last year to the assisted regions of Italy. We would hope to see the Community take account of the particular problems of the peripheral areas, which in the United Kingdom may even have been aggravated by entry to the Community, as was suggested in evidence to the Committee.
The Commission will be putting forward their own proposals for a future Fund in the near future. The amount of money available for allocation from the Fund will certainly have to be increased from the present 500 million units of account. On that matter, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Banks, and, indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Tranmire. The noble Lord, Lord Tranmire, expressed disappointment, which largely derived from the small sum available for payment from the Fund under the present dispensation. But we would hope to see the sum increased rather more than by that amount which was simply sufficient to take account of inflation.
May I turn to the quota system. I have sympathy with the criticisms that have been expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Banks, and the Committee about the quota system. Ideally, the Fund should be
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allocated according to objective criteria which would reflect the intensity of each Member State's regional problems. But it is appreciated—the Committee certainly appreciated—that this would involve a difficult job of selection for the Commission among a wide variety of eligible projects from all the Member States, and it would be very difficult to devise criteria which ensured that the most needy areas were the most successful. The practical problems are such that we think that quotas must, at least for some time, remain the basic instrument for dividing the Fund. The present quotas have the merit of ensuring that the countries with the major problems are those getting a net return. That, I hope noble Lords will agree, is right.
The noble Lord, Lord Tranmire, referred to the fact that Germany receives a substantial amount from the Fund—or in some terms a substantial amount—and compared the amount received by that relatively prosperous country with the amount received by Ireland. There are two points I want to make here. First, the only three countries which get a net receipt from the Fund are Great Britain, Ireland and Italy. Therefore, although Germany receives money from the Fund, the amount received is less than the amount that Germany contributes to it. My other point is that paragraph 50 of the report of the Committee says:
"It has been suggested that in future the beneficiaries of the Regional Fund would be reduced to three, the UK, Italy and Eire. While this would concentrate limited resources on the countries with the gravest regional problems, the Committee consider that it would have serious disadvantages, for it would be politically divisive …".
I think we would accept that.
Finally, on that matter, one has to recognise that, albeit that Germany is a prosperous country compared with Ireland or Italy, none the less it has regional problems as well.
Lord TRANMIRE: My Lords, would the noble Lord suggest therefore that, for getting some form of assistance, a millionaire could be justified because he was actually making a greater contribution in tax? Surely, Germany ought to be able to look after her own problem areas from her own wealth.
Lord MCCLUSKEY: My Lords, I have to turn that round and suggest to the noble Lord that he is losing the European dimension, because the European Regional Development Fund is concerned with European problems. If it identifies any part of Europe as a regional problem, it ought to be able to apply some of the resources of the Fund to the solution of that problem. I agree with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Tranmire; that is, that regional disparities have widened. They have not narrowed. It is the countries and regions on the periphery of the Community which have the greatest problems, and it is to these that we hope the Community will direct its special attention. Of the ideas which are being discussed both here and Brussels, one of the most interesting is the possibility of using Regional Development Fund money to provide an exchange risk guarantee for loans to private industry from the European Investment Bank. The Committee looked at this problem. At present, the exchange risks are too great for most prospective borrowers in the private sector in this country, unless they have overseas earnings which can be used to service the European Investment Bank loans. We look forward to seeing proposals by the Commission on this matter, but we recognise that, in some forms at least, it would be difficult to reconcile with a rigid scheme of quotas. If a satisfactory formula can be found, it may be a means of diverting substantial funds to the neediest regions.
In conclusion, my Lords, I should like to reiterate the Government's view that the Fund can be a useful instrument of the Community and one to be valued. We should like to see the Fund have a much greater impact, for example in the way I have described. We must however be realistic about the scope for this. Our own national effort, whatever the precise figures may be in support of the assisted regions, is so very much larger than the main impact on regional problems is bound to come from what we do ourselves. Apart from an increase in the size of the Fund, we should also like to see changes in the Regulations which would remove some of the difficulties revealed by experience and identified by the Committee in their report. We should certainly be glad to see the Fund rather more closely co-ordinated with other Com
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munity instruments, although the scope for this may prove to be relatively limited. It is important to avoid any increase in bureaucratic processes. However, we think that the Committee's suggestion of a regional development certificate is the kind of idea which merits further attention, and I should like to express our gratitude to all those in industry and in the public authorities who have helped so readily in the preparation of applications to the Fund.
We are now thinking of the second stage in the life of the Fund, and this debate is primarily to review the work of the first year of the first stage. I think the debate has shown, as the Select Committee accept, that the Fund is a worthwhile initiative. It has had a good administrative start, but we can hope to make it much better in time. I am happy to have the support of the noble Lord, Lord Sherfield, for the gradualist approach. I would also say that the whole process, starting with the publication of the Annual Report; the critical appraisal of it by the Select Committee; the examination of witnesses and the collection of evidence, especially from bodies with an intimate knowledge of regional problems and a shortage of rose-coloured spectacles (people like the HIDB) and culminating in this debate and the suggestions it has brought forth, has made an essential and invaluable contribution to our thinking about the review of the Fund's working and purposes, a review which is essential if it is to fulfil the hopes engendered by its creation.
5.22 p.m.
Lord COBBOLD: My Lords, I shall not detain your Lordships for long, but I should like to thank all those who have taken part in this debate. I should like to start with my two colleagues on the Sub-Committee, the noble Lords, Lord Sherfield and Lord Tranmire. I thought it was very useful that the noble Lord, Lord Tranmire, should make here a point which he made on a number of occasions during our sessions about the lag between actual payment and commitments. That is referred to in the last sentence of paragraph 19. It was also useful that he should emphasise his slightly different view as to the best solution to some of the problems. I was very appreciative of the speeches made by the noble Lords, Lord Elton and Lord Banks. The noble Lord,

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Lord Elton, made particularly valuable comments on the difficult subject of additionality and topping up, and the noble Lord, Lord Banks, emphasised the value of the co-ordination of regional policy and the enlargement of the Fund.
Finally, I should like to thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, for his interesting and on the whole, I think, hopeful and encouraging comments, together with his very generous references to the work of the Sub-Committee.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

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