Sitting of 8 March 1977

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

PRIVATE BUSINESS
ANGLIAN WATER AUTHORITY BILL [Lords]
As amended, considered; to be read the Third time.

ST. PAULS PLAYING FIELD (TRUST) BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
To be read a Second time upon Thursday.

CONTINGENCIES FUND 1975–76
Accounts ordered,
showing:—

(1) The Receipts and Payments in connection with the Fund in the year ended the 31st day of March 1976;

(2) The Distribution of the Capital of the Fund at the commencement and close of the year; with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon.—[Mr. Bates.]

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  SOCIAL SERVICES

    Blind Persons
    Mr. Hodgsonasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what plans he has to equalise the benefits payable to persons accidentally blinded, as opposed to persons blinded from birth or as a result of disease.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mr. Alfred Morris): Blind people are eligible for the improved general social security benefits according to their circumstances. The war pensions and industrial injuries schemes also have their part to play in our overall provision of help for disabled people. These schemes have not prevented such advances for sick and disabled people generally as invalidity benefit, attendance allowance, noncontributory invalidity pension, mobility allowance and the new pensions schemes.
    Mr. Hodgson: Is the Minister aware that, under the regulations laid down in his Department's leaflet NI6, a person blinded at work receives an automatic disablement pension of £25 a week, on top of which he may get extra earnings, and that if a person is blinded as a result of disease or from birth, according to his Department's leaflet SB1 the maximum benefit is £16·95, which is reduced if he has any additional earnings? Is not this grossly unfair between the two classes of blinded people?
    Mr. Morris: I am aware of these differences. The hon. Gentleman recently wrote to me and quoted the figure of £25, which must, I think, be the 100 per cent. industrial disablement pension appropriate to total blindness. The figure of £14·95 which he also quoted in his letter appears to be a supplementary benefit assessment. Without additional details I cannot comment further on that comparison, but I shall be glad to do so if the hon. Gentleman can give me particulars.
    Mr. McCartney: What study, if any, is being made of the principle of no fault liability in this context?
    Mr. Morris: The whole question of compensation for personal injury is being considered by the Royal Commission under the chairmanship of Lord Pearson which, I understand, is expected to report later this year.
    Mr. Atkinson: Does my hon. Friend recollect the Early-Day Motion, supported by 150 Members, in favour of all blind people being made eligible to receive the mobility allowance? Does he also recollect the deputation from the TUC General Council, which met him and my right hon. Friend to stress the importance of all blind people being given this additional benefit in order to assist their mobility? Will he now report to the House the progress that has been made?
    Mr. Morris: I am aware of my hon. Friend's strong feelings on this matter and his consistency in arguing the case. He will be aware that there is strong pressure to extend the age range of beneficiaries as well as to admit new categories, not to mention many other extensions of the mobility allowance scheme. There is an infinity of claims against, regrettably, finite resources. What may be helpful to my hon. Friend is to know that blindness can be one factor among others in deciding the award of mobility allowances.

    Disabled Persons (Vehicles)
    Mr. Anthony Grantasked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will bring forward a scheme for loans to help the disabled to buy cars.
    Mr. Alfred Morris: The Central Council for the Disabled is exploring various possibilities for helping disabled people to use the mobility allowance to best effect. I have been giving all the help and support I can, and I hope that it may be possible for the council to give further assistance to disabled people who wish to use the mobility allowance for the purchase of a car. My discussions with the council are continuing.
    Mr. Grant: Is the Minister aware that the Disabled Drivers' Association, of which I am proud to be a vice-president, is very angry with him about the questionnaire he has sent out to disabled drivers of three-wheeled vehicles? Is he aware that that questionnaire which they
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    complain about provides only one question—whether or not they will take the mobility allowance in due course? It does not ask, as it should, whether they would prefer to have a vehicle. Will the hon. Gentleman look at it again?
    Mr. Morris: The hon. Gentleman, who is a successor of mine in the capacity to which he referred, will know that I have had a very close association with the DDA, whose management committee I was happy to meet recently. There is a need for a much more detailed questionnaire. It would be difficult for me at present to expand on that. What I want very much to know is what disabled people are seeking. I shall have the hon. Gentleman's point very much in mind.
    Mr. Carter-Jones: Will my hon. Friend consider asking the Treasury to advance a substantial sum to enable the commutation scheme to get off the ground? Does he agree that if it gets off the ground it will then be possible to decide how many vehicles people who are disabled want to buy for themselves? We shall then know how many people need the trike. Will my hon. Friend please give attention to this matter?
    Mr. Morris: I am very seized of the importance of my hon. Friend's point. As I have said, the Central Council for the Disabled has been exploring, with my active co-operation, a whole range of possibilities, which include favourable purchase terms and leasing arrangements. My hon. Friend is a considerable expert in making representations to the Treasury, and I have no doubt that it is fully aware of his feelings and that careful note will be taken of what he has said this afternoon.
    Mr. Cyril Smith: Does the Minister agree that the essential thing is to make disabled people mobile and that any mobility allowance that does not do that fails in its purpose? Does he not, therefore, regret his decision to phase out the invalid trike? Whether or not he regrets it, has he any plans to have discussions with GKN-Sankey about the new car for disabled people which has featured in the Press recently?
    Mr. Morris: We are giving more mobility help to assist more disabled people than has ever been given before. The hon. Gentleman may be glad to know

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    —we have not discussed the matter recently—that I have seen two development projects in the past two weeks, and I saw the GKN-Sankey prototype a considerable time ago. The hon. Gentleman can be well assured that our commitment to tricycle drivers who will still need a specialised vehicle when we can no longer replace their tricycles after 1981 is a genuine commitment which my right hon. Friend rightly stressed in his recent letter to disabled drivers.
    Dr. Vaughan: Will the Minister admit that there is now widespread and mounting anxiety about the future of disabled drivers? We know what they want, which is to keep their trikes. [HON. MEMBERS: "They want cars."] Should not the Minister, therefore, reverse his policy and tell them that they can keep their trikes until there is a proper alternative?
    Mr. Morris: There is a wide diversity of opinion on this important matter. There are those who have for a very long time wanted the trike to be phased out. There are people who would like to keep the trike. We have given a commitment to tricycle drivers. I shall do the best I can further to improve the mobility of disabled people.
    Mr. Luceasked the Secretary of State for Social Services how many representations he has received in 1977 about the future of the invalid tricycle.
    Mr. Alfred Morris: My right hon. Friend and I have received some 500 letters this year, some including petitions.
    Mr. Luce: Will not the Minister now accept that, although the mobility allowance is of general and welcome benefit to those who do not drive, the eventual withdrawal of the trike will have catastrophic consequences for those who are used to this kind of mobility? Why cannot he now give an assurance that the trike will not be withdrawn until a suitable alternative is found?
    Mr. Morris: My right hon. Friend has given the assurance that we shall look on home and world markets to supply those who will still need a specialised vehicle when we can no longer replace the tricycle after 1981. There are divided opinions on this matter. The hon. Gentleman may be well assured that I am looking at every aspect of the problem.
    Mr. Hardy: Is it not the case that, while the decision to phase out the tricycle is rather regrettable, the representations that my hon. Friend has received since he made that decision are astonishingly different from those he received before the decision was made? Will he also confirm that many of the representations opposed to his decision came from organisations which condemned it before it was made?
    Mr. Morris: A number of letters take different points of view. As I have indicated, there appears to have been a change of opinion, which may, however, be more apparent than real. I am well aware that many people want to keep the invalid tricycle, but I must emphasise that we had very little option with regard to the decision to phase out.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: What comfort can the right hon. Gentleman offer to the newly disabled or to youngsters who reach the age of 16 and who now find themselves totally without mobility, completely grounded and confined to the four square walls of their rooms?
    Mr. Morris: My right hon. Friend stated to the House that the worries expressed were often the result of garbled and even grossly distorted versions of the facts. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman is aware that the Employment Service Agency scheme, for example, can be expected to increase in scope. Help over and above the mobility allowance can be made available to people who cannot use public transport and who need to go to work or higher education. I am well aware of the point that the right hon. Gentleman is making, and I shall do everything possible in future to improve the mobility of disabled people.
    Mr. Ward: In view of the importance of the mobility allowance uprating, can my hon. Friend now announce that a generous increase is to be made and how much that increase will be?
    Mr. Morris: I am afraid the answer must be that I would if I could but I cannot. I do, however, give my hon. Friend the assurance that the announcement will be made at the earliest possible date. Moreover, my hon. Friend can be assured that we shall seek to improve the allowance not only in amount but also in real value.

    Hospital Closures
    Mr. Hoyleasked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he has any plans to change the procedure in relation to hospital closures.
    The Secretary of State for Social Services (Mr. David Ennais): The procedure for closure or change of use of health buildings was notified to health authorities in October 1975, after wide consultations. The procedure appears to be working satisfactorily and I am not planning to make any changes. But I will keep the arrangements under review.
    Mr. Hoyle: Will my right hon. Friend in the meantime bear in mind the wishes of the people in the community, particularly the people of Nelson and Colne, who desire to retain facilities in Nelson and Colne if Reedyford Memorial Hospital has to go? I ask my right hon. Friend to bear in mind the report of the inquiry, in which the inspector said that if Reedyford had to go alternative facilities should be provided before it was demolished.
    Mr. Ennals: I appreciate my hon. Friend's point. The need to demolish the Reedyford Memorial Hospital results from the decision reached on the route of the Burnley to Colne stretch of the M65 Calder Valley motorway. The Lancashire Area Health Authority has embarked on a full programme of local consultation on the closure and the replacement of facilities. When the time for the closure of the hospital approaches, further consultations with the community health council and other local interests will be carried out. The views of all concerned will be taken into account before final decisions are taken on the replacement of services.
    Mrs. Knight: Has the Secretary of State anything to say about antique hospitals such as the Birmingham Accident Hospital, which should be closed? Even though there is a longstanding plan to close it, under the Government's cuts it is not to be closed. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at that hospital, where 50,000 seriously sick people go each year, lighting fails in the middle of operations, that the X-ray and other facilities are very bad, and that it needs to be closed quickly?
    Mr. Ennals: I shall not be drawn into commenting on the particular hospital. The hon. Lady well knows that there are many old hospitals. There has been a pretty substantial programme of rebuilding and improvement, but with restraint on public expenditure, the capital programme has been slowed down. I am well aware of some of the problems. The hon. Lady will no doubt raise the matter directly with me or with the area health authority.

    Pensioners
    Sir Bernard Braineasked the Secretary of State for Social Services when he last met representatives of pensioners' organisations.
    Mr. Ennals: I met a deputation from the National Federation of Old-age Pensions Associations on 2nd February.
    Sir B. Braine: Did the right hon. Gentleman tell them that, like the Financial Treasury to the Treasury, he is heartily ashamed of the fact that personal allowances on earnings and pensions are as low as they are? Did he explain that the increased cost of living has not been matched by a more generous death grant—indeed, that the Government have not increased the grant at all? Has not the time come, in this period of inflation, to deal with this hard-pressed section of the community far more generously than the Government have dealt with them so far?
    Mr. Ennals: I did not say what the hon. Gentleman suggested. The hon. Gentleman knows, and the deputation recognised, that pensions and other long-term and short-term benefits have been totally excluded from the public expenditure cuts. Therefore, we have fulfilled our commitment to the electorate to protect the elderly, the sick, the unemployed and the disabled against the effects of the economic situation. I pointed out to the deputation that in December 1976, immediately following the uprating in November, the single person's pension rate represented 33 per cent. of the average net earnings of a male industrial manual worker and the married couple's rate was 51 per cent. It is the first time ever that we have achieved those targets—
    Sir B. Braine: What about the death grant?
    Mr. Ennals: I shall come to the death grant. It is the first time that we have achieved those targets in relation to earnings, and that is a considerable achievement. It is not possible to increase the death grant at present.
    Mr. Penhaligon: What excuse does the right hon. Gentleman now give for last year's pension fiddle? What do the Government intend to do to bring the real purchasing value of the pension back to what it was in April 1975?
    Mr. Ennals: A matter concerning this has been brought before the High Court, and it would be improper for me to comment. I do not for a moment accept what the hon. Gentleman says about a pensions fiddle. When we raised pensions in November, we rightly fully covered pensioners against the effects of inflation over the previous 12 months.
    Mr. Skinner: Does not my right hon. Friend appreciate that old-age pensioners in some areas—perhaps in all areas—are not being sheltered from the public spending cuts? Does he not read the newspapers as I do and notice that several county councils and other councils are withdrawing various benefits from pensioners and that the bus tokens which had a face value of £5 five years ago are almost worthless today? Are not these things the effects of spending cuts which local councils are having to impose? Will he not give an instruction to local authorities to do as my local council, Bolsover District Council, does and issue free television licences to all old-age pensioners?
    Mr. Ennals: I welcome what my hon. Friend says about his own council, but I cannot give such an instruction as he requests. What I have clearly said is that we give high priority in the social service work of local authorities to the care and help of aged people. They take a high priority in terms of community services and the provision of nurses, home helps and meals on wheels. These are the services which are being given the highest priority. In the anouncement that I made last week about the £21 million of new money which is available for joint financing, I said that this also will be concentrated on providing services—residential and day care services—within the community for elderly people.
    Mrs. Chalker: Will the right hon. Gentleman give the House and the pensioners an assurance that, in the next pensions uprating, he will consider the full period over which they should be uprated so that, unlike what happened last year, the pensioners get genuine compensation for the inflation which they are bearing?
    Mr. Ennals: I can give an assurance to the House and the country, as I did to the National Federation of Old-age Pensions Associations, that there will be an uprating. It will be in November, and I gave a guarantee that it will cover the change in the value of money in terms of the retail price index between the time when the uprating is made and the last uprating in November last year.

    Drugs (Home Treatment)
    Miss Fookesasked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will institute a survey into the amounts of drugs unused in private households after treatment has been completed.
    The Minister of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Mr. Roland Moyle): No, Sir. I am not satisfied that a survey would serve any useful purpose.
    Miss Fookes: May I draw to the Minister's attention the experience of one chemist whom I know personally who undertook a survey of various households and found an alarming amount of unused drugs? Does not that suggest that there is something wrong?
    Mr. Moyle: We have a number of local surveys and "Return unused drugs" campaigns, and we have a substantial amount of information on this matter. I am aware that there is a need for a campaign to educate the public. My Department will probably be considering this matter with the medical profession and has approached the Health Education Council and the Pharmaceutical Society.

    Vaccine-Damaged Children
    Mr. David Huntasked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether he will conduct further research to establish more definitely the number of vaccine-damaged children.
    Mr. Ennals: My Department is already supporting research intended to establish with greater precision the extent of serious reactions to vaccines. The project covers the whole of Great Britain. This research is already in progress and this Department will continue to give it support.
    Mr. Hunt: In the light of the conflicting evidence which is now coming forward, particularly the revelations in The Sunday Times last weekend, will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider his decision not to institute any form of public inquiry? Will he hold one—or, rather, will he at least authorise the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation to hold a series of public meetings, particularly into the effects of the whooping cough vaccination, so that it can all be aired in public to try to alleviate some of the worries of a number of confused mothers who really do not know what is going on?
    Mr. Ennals: I recognise the hon. Member's concern, which I think is widely shared, that parents are confused. With regard to the article in The Sunday Times, it must be acceped that there will always be differing shades of medical opinion on matters of this kind, but the hon. Member will know that the joint committee is a distinguished group of specialists. They have weighed all the evidence and have stated clearly and unequivocally their belief that the hazards to children from contracting whooping cough exceed the hazards associated with immunisation. The joint committee is meeting again later this month. It will again consider all the facts and evidence relevant to the vaccine. In view of the interest shown in the House and the country, I have now asked the committee to prepare for publication a review of the evidence about whooping cough vaccine and to set out in full the basis of its advice to me.
    Mr. Ashley: Is my right hon. Friend aware that making public that review of evidence is a quite inadequate answer to the legitimate question posed by the hon. Member for Wirral (Mr. Hunt)? Is he aware that evidence from parliamentary answers, from medical experts and from Press investigations has revealed that his Department's case for refusing compensation and for refusing an independent inquiry is based on inadequate, unreliable
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    and misleading data and that that has shaken public confidence in the immunisation programme? Instead of criticising Back Benchers on both sides and parents who disagree with him, will my right hon. Friend now accept a proposal from me for a meeting between himself, Back Benchers on both sides, medical experts on both sides and parents, so that we can amicably resolve these problems and seek to allay the genuine public concern about the immunisation programme?
    Mr. Ennals: I have made no derogatory comments about Back Benchers. I believe that on both sides of the House this is a matter of genuine concern. I have now replied to over 100 Questions on this subject from my hon. Friend. Every answer that I have given is information which is available and which is before the joint committee. Therefore, I trust the advice which is given to me by the joint committee. However, the idea that my hon. Friend has put forward is an interesting and novel one. I shall in a day or two be meeting the chairman of the joint committee. I shall put to him my hon. Friend's suggestion that we should have a meeting in the House of Commons, with Members drawn from both sides of the House, so that the chairman and others may answer questions to try to alleviate uncertainty and. I hope, to discourage my hon. Friend from his campaign.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: May I appeal to the House? Unless we have shorter questions and answers, many hon. Members who thought that their Questions would be called will be unlucky.
    Dr. Vaughan: Will the Secretary of State admit that the anxiety about whooping cough vaccine is now seriously affecting other vaccination programmes? Would it not make sense temporarily to suspend the use of this vaccine while it is all looked into? Would that not make great sense for everybody?
    Mr. Ennals: No, it would be wrong to do that, as, on reflection, I think the hon. Member will agree. The joint committee is appointed from among the 22 most distinguished people in this field and they are my advisers. They have considered all the evidence and the hon.

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    Gentleman knows the conclusion that they have reached. It would not be in the interests of patients to do as the hon. Gentleman suggests, but I recognise—I am, in fact, very concerned—that uncertainty in the minds of parents about the efficacy of this vaccine is affecting the take-up of vaccine relating to diphtheria and tetanus. The double vaccine for diphtheria and tetanus is freely available for children for whom whooping cough vaccine is not appropriate. The hon. Gentleman mentioned polio. He knows that I have already appealed to the public, to parents, to make use of this safe and reasonable vaccine in order to prevent the spread of polio, which is making a disturbing return to this country.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: We cannot stay any longer on this Question.

    Under fives
    Mr. Freudasked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will make a statement on the progress on the Government's new policy for the under-fives announced in October 1975.
    Mr. Moyle: Our thinking on under-fives was summarised in Section IX of our consultative document—"Priorities for Health and Personal Social Services in England"—published in March 1976. A circular issued jointly by my Department and the Department of Education and Science in March 1976 emphasised the importance of co-ordination of central and local services for under-fives and the need to make maximum use of existing resources. The Government welcome the efforts that local authorities are making within the constraints imposed by the current economic situation to improve their services.
    Mr. Freud: Will the Minister confirm that DOE Circular 120–76 is now official Government policy with regard to under-fives? Does he not accept that it is shameful, even in the current economic dilemma, to cut back on further nursery provision under any circumstances?
    Mr. Moyle: That question should properly be directed to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science. My responsibility is only for pre-school playgroups and child minding. Our policy is not yet finalised.
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    It is still out for consultation with the priorities document.
    Mrs. Hayman: In view of the evidence on the health of under-fives that has since emerged from the Court Report, will my hon. Friend, as a matter of urgency, look at the two main suggestions proposed in the report regarding child health visitors and general practitioners becoming specialists in pediatrics?
    Mr. Moyle: We have recently received the Court Report. It is now out for consultation, so that we shall see how we proceed to implement it. I have to say that a number of the Court Committtee's recommendations seem to have substantial resource implications, and that will have to be borne in mind.
    Sir George Young: Will the Minister inject a fresh degree of urgency into the consultations with his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science to try to get a rational and co-ordinated approach towards the needs of the under-fives, and at the same time get away from the damaging and illogical split in approach between the two Departments which now exist?
    Mr. Moyle: A number of experiments are going on up and down the country into the DHSS service under the aegis of local authorities and the Department of Education to try to bring about much closer co-ordination. We have this very much in mind, and a circular urging co-ordination between education and social service activities was issued by my Department and the Department of Education and Science.
    Mr. Fernyhough: In view of the fact that almost every question asked by Opposition Members this afternoon has demanded an increase in public expenditure, will my hon. Friend have a word with the Chancellor and tell him that it would be inappropriate to reduce income tax in his Budget on 29th March and that we would much prefer him to meet the demands with regard to public expenditure that Opposition Members have been making this afternoon?
    Mr. Moyle: I am not entirely sure whether I should approach my right hon. Friend with a suggestion that income tax should not be reduced. I have noticed the phenomenon to which my right hon.

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    Friend draws attention. Whenever Opposition Members are challenged, they say that the particular point they are urging at any particular time should be exempt from public expenditure cuts. What we have not yet discovered is where they believe that the public expenditure cuts should take place.

    Allegations of Abuse
    Mr. Sproatasked the Secretary of State for Social Services what is the average length of time between the date information is given to a special investigator of his Department regarding alleged abuse and the date that a special investigator investigates the alleged abuse.
    The Minister for Social Security (Mr. Stanley Orme): An assessment of the current position on special investigation is possible at the beginning of each year. The figures for the beginning of 1977 are not yet available but an analysis of the position as at 1st January 1976 indicated that in five of the Department's 12 regions cases referred by local offices for special investigation could be allocated immediately to a special investigator. In six of the regions the average delay in doing this was between 2·1 weeks and 4·6 weeks; in the remaining region the data was not available.
    Mr. Sproat: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that through no fault of the Department there is a delay, quite often of up to six months, between the time when an alleged incident of fraud occurs and the time when the special investigator is able to start investigating it? In view of these very long delays, and in view of the enormous backlog which develops, is not this an impossible job for many of the investigators? Will the right hon. Gentleman increase the number of special investigators, who, experience proves, recover the equivalent of their own wages within a matter of weeks?
    Mr. Orme: I find it rather strange that the hon. Gentleman should be complaining to me about the work of special investigators and about the need for more of them. For example, the 765 cases which the hon. Gentleman sent to me resulted in many of the special investigators being diverted from the work they were doing and on which they had 10 times more success than they had with
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    regard to the cases that the hon. Gentleman submitted.
    Mr. Robert Hughes: Has my right hon. Friend noticed that one national newspaper has nicknamed the hon. Gentleman "Deep Sproat"? Does that make the hon. Gentleman the Linda Lovelace of the Tory Party since he is someone who is willing to swallow anything he is told?
    Mr. Orme: I would say to my hon. Friends and hon. Members opposite that the painstaking investigation that we had into the hon. Gentleman's complaints puts into perspective the type of campaign that the hon. Gentleman has been waging. I hope that the country will recognise that there is no basis for it.
    Mrs. Bain: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are many people in the House who have little respect for the views of the hon. Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Sproat)? Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that much more concern should be given to the question of helping the genuine cases of people who are in need of supplementary benefit and services from the DHSS? Is it not the fact that as a result of the hon. Gentleman's campaign many cases are not being taken up as soon as they should be?
    Mr. Orme: I could not agree more with the hon. Lady. My Department and I are concerned about the genuine people who are entitled to benefit but who are not coming forward. I hope that they will not be deterred by this campaign.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: Since many of the right hon. Gentleman's answers have been about unsubstantiated allegations, does he recall that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made an allegation on 19th November that a number of doctors at Hammersmith Hospital had been engaging in malpractices? Does he now recognise that that allegation has been disapproved entirely?
    Mr. Speaker: I believe that this has nothing to do with the Question on the Order Paper.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: The Question refers to alleged abuse.
    Mr. Speaker: I want to be fair. We are dealing with Social Services Questions, and the subject covers health. The right hon. Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Jenkin) may proceed with his supplementary question.
    Mr. Patrick Jenkin: As the Minister of State knows, this Question is about alleged abuse, and the Secretary of State made a very grave allegation of alleged abuse against doctors at Hammersmith Hospital. As that has now been disproved wholly, will the right hon. Gentleman now apologise?
    Mr. Orme: This is an abuse of Question Time, Mr. Speaker. My right hon. Friend made no such allegation. He said merely that he would investigate allegations which had been made. The right hon. Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Jenkin) has no right to put his supplementary question in that context.
    Mr. Michael Stewart: Would it be possible for investigators to get on to the track of real abuses more quickly if their time was not wasted by having to investigate groundless allegations made by mean-spirited and irresponsible people?
    Mr. Orme: Yes. That is the answer to the problem.

    Advertising (Medical Journals)
    Mr. Gryllsasked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will make a statement on the Government's intentions with regard to advertising in medical journals.
    Mr. Ennals: The reduction in reckon-able sales promotion expenditure which I announced last July and which includes the cost of advertising in medical journals accepted as a cost under the Voluntary Price Regulation Scheme takes effect from 1st April. Consultations on the proposal to exempt from the reduction and to accept in full the cost of advertising in learned and professional journals are expected to be completed shortly.
    Mr. Grylls: Can the Secretary of State tell the House what are the preliminary results of his consultations, especially with the print unions, about the possibility of having an approved list of journals and a non-approved list? I gather that the right
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    hon. Gentleman has consulted some 30 different organisations. Can he say anything about his consultations?
    Mr. Ennals: I cannot indicate the views of specific organisations. I hope that it will be possible to take a decision on this very soon. Some of the very important organisations which were consulted have not yet replied. I have urged them to do so quickly because I am anxious that a decision should be taken.
    Mr. Ashley: Is my right hon. Friend aware that some of these advertisements make claims for miraculous cures? Would he care to investigate the standards of this type of advertising?
    Mr. Ennals: This is one of the matters which I have under discussion with the pharmaceutical industry. I hope that before long it will be possible to make an announcement dealing precisely with this problem.

    Child Benefit Scheme
    Mr. Madelasked the Secretary of State for Social Services whether it is administratively possible to introduce the full Child Benefit Scheme in April 1978.
    Mr. Orme: Yes, Sir, but, as my right hon. Friend announced in his reply to the hon. Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clark) on 26th October, we intend to phase in the full Child Benefit Scheme over the period April 1977 to April 1979 in line with the recommendation of the joint Labour Party—TUC working party.
    Mr. Madel: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether parents who have small incomes and do not make any parental contribution towards their children's further education will receive any compensating payment for the reduction ni child tax allowances which will take place this April?
    Mr. Orme: Lower wage earners will not suffer from this decision. For the higher income groups earning more than £8,600 a year, there will be some loss in that regard.
    Mrs. Castle: If there is now money available for tax reliefs—and, presumably, again next year—would not it have a bigger impact on poverty, especially among families, if some at least of this money were to be used at the earliest

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    administratively possible moment to give a realistic level of child benefit?
    Mr. Orme: As my right hon. Friend knows, this is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Government see as a major priority the phasing in and, if possible, the up-rating when it is economically possible of child benefit.
    Mr. Newton: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that still, just a month before the introduction of this scheme, nothing has been said about what is to be done to compensate the parents of students over 19 years of age under the scheme? Will he ensure that his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science tells us what is to happen?
    Mr. Orme: I cannot add anything to what my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary said about this in the debate the other day.
    Mr. Newton: Why not?

    CHINGFORD
    Mr. Tebbitasked the Prime Minister if he will pay an official visit to Chingford.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan): I have at present no plans to do so.
    Mr. Tebbit: Is the Prime Minister aware that a very large number of policemen live in Chingford? [HON. MEMBERS: "They need them."] No comment. If the right hon. Gentleman came to Chingford, he could explain to the policemen there why their claim is outside the limits of the social contract but it appears to be possible to pay £7,000 in cash to dockers not to work at all.
    The Prime Minister: I am not surprised to hear that there are a number of policemen living in Chingford. Indeed, they live in most places. I had the opportunity of meeting the leaders of the police yesterday. I had nearly two hours with them during which time we discussed their pay claim. I told them that it would not be right to break the pay agreement, even if their case was a good one. Although I did not wish to misuse what the Leader of the Opposition said, I was glad to be able to say that it was her
    1228
    view, too—and therefore, I take it, the view of the House—that any claim should be settled within the limits of the pay agreement. On that basis I am prepared to go as far as possible. They produced one or two illustrations to me which I had examined, but I do not think that they really meet the limits which are laid down in this connection. They relied on the seamen's case, which is not really on all fours.
    Mr. Kilroy-Silk: Will my right hon. Friend use the time that he now has available as a result of not going to Chingford to visit the workers sitting in at Plessey factories on Merseyside to assure them of his support in their fight to save their jobs and that he will commit himself to speeding up the welcome investigation that he announced last Thursday?
    The Prime Minister: Only this morning I asked that the National Enterprise Board should make investigations into this matter as rapidly as posible, and I shall try to give it personal consideration.
    Mrs. Thatcher: Will the Prime Minister say whether he agreed with the Home Secretary's advice to the police to join the TUC?
    The Prime Minister: I gather that my right hon. Friend was a little misrepresented on that. He did not advise them to join the TUC, any more than I did yesterday. He was responding in a television interview to a question about negotiation. We all know how questions on television or, indeed, in other ways can sometimes mislead one into giving answers which are not quite the kind of answers—[Interruption.] If Opposition Members have never had that experience, all I can say is that they have a lot to learn. I can assure the right hon. Lady that my right hon. Friend was not advising the police to join the TUC. I am sure that they will want to take their own decision on that matter.

    PRESIDENT CARTER (TALKS)
    Mr. Luceasked the Prime Minister whether he will discuss defence matters with President Carter on his visit to Washington.
    The Prime Minister: I shall have wide-ranging talks with President Carter on

    1229
    international and bilateral issues of mutual concern including defence and in particular the world economic situation. The House will wish to know that I have recently issued invitations to the Heads of State and Heads of Government of France, the United States, Canada, the Federal Republic of Germany, Italy and Japan to attend a summit meeting at No. 10 Downing Street, on 7th and 8th May and have received acceptances from them all. I hope to discuss arrangements for this meeting with President Carter and the Prime Minister of Canada on my forthcoming visit.
    Mr. Luce: In view of the £8 billion defence cuts of the past three years and the recent warnings of Vice-President Mondale that allies must play their full part in the NATO Alliance, will the Prime Minister assure President Carter that Britain will take sufficient measures to make certain that we play our full part in the defence of the West?
    The Prime Minister: There is no doubt in the minds of either NATO or the United States about these matters. As some of these cuts in expenditure resulted from our economic policy, perhaps I should go on to add what is already known, which is that the economic policies that the Government are following have received the full support of our allies.
    Mr. Thorpe: Although I welcome the Prime Minister's invitations to a summit, may I ask whether the President of the European Commission, Mr. Roy Jenkins, has been invited and whether he has accepted? Secondly, since the Middle East, Cyprus and Rhodesia are three areas which are potential flashpoints where we have some influence, does he agree that the more closely we can co-operate with and co-ordinate our policies with the American Government, the better it will be for the future?
    The Prime Minister: On the first question, I understand that the Council of Foreign Ministers is discussing this matter this afternoon. Therefore, I have no statement to make at this stage. On the second question, certainly in the case of all three issues that the right hon. Gentleman mentioned it is important to coordinate our policies with those of the
    1230
    United States, and, of course, with those of other countries in Europe. The summit will help us to do both.
    Mr. Watkinson: When the Prime Minister next meets Mr. Carter, will he raise the question of Concorde? Will he bring to the American President's attention the fact that Concorde is our major national interest and that it is vital that it lands in New York in order to ensure the future viability of the project?
    The Prime Minister: I would regard it as a very great misfortune if the finest aircraft in the world was not allowed to land at one of the world's finest cities. I have indicated to President Carter in private communications that on the whole we do not like getting a verdict without a prior trial. I shall make this position clear to the President, but it must be recognised that he has limitations on his field of action in this case. We must have regard to that. I have no desire to whip up a frenzy when there are limitations placed on all parties.
    Mrs. Bain: When the Prime Minister is in Washington, will he tell President Carter that an independent Scotland will not recognise nuclear bases on her soil? Will he use the opportunity of his visit to Washington to go to the IMF and tell it that the people of Scotland will not accept a substantial reduction in their standard of living as a direct result of IMF policies?
    The Prime Minister: I am not sure how far the hon. Lady is entitled to speak for an independent Scotland. But, if she wishes, I shall convey the views of the SNP to President Carter if there is a sufficient interstice in our talks. I will do so in order to let him know what the future holds. As far as the IMF is concerned, the hon. Lady will find that her view on this matter is, as on many other matters, a little jaundiced.
    Mr. Whitehead: When the Prime Minister discusses defence matters with President Carter, will he explain to him the strong domestic pressure in this country for the purchase of the Nimrod second-generation surveillance aircraft in view of the trend in employment in design and production in the domestic aircraft industry?
    The Prime Minister: It is becoming increasingly clear that the AWACS aircraft that is intended for NATO is unlikely to be financed, but it is time that a decision was reached. If other countries do not feel the same need for this kind of aircraft, it must be pointed out that Nimrod would supply a specific and particular British interest and would cover Europe and the Eastern Atlantic. We should not forgo this lead if other countries cannot agree on an aircraft with wider use that is not exclusively ours. I shall put this to President Carter and tell him that we cannot wait for a decision indefinitely.
    Mr. Adley: Would the Prime Minister agree that British-American relations are the cornerstone of NATO, and that if President Carter does not positively use his good offices to facilitate the landing of Concorde at New York in accordance with the agreement between the British and United States Governments it will do inestimable harm to one of the most important relationships in the Western world?
    The Prime Minister: Obviously, a decision to refuse to allow Concorde to land would have an adverse impact on the relationship. There are, however, far wider implications in the relationship than the situation on Concorde, and that is why I do not wish to be drawn into a public denouncement on such matters. These issues need careful examination, and I have invited President Carter's full co-operation. I have pointed out to him that there is a united view in the House of Commons that Concorde should be allowed to land in New York. I shall continue to represent that very strongly to him.

    SECRETARY OF STATE FOR ENERGY (SPEECH)
    Mr. Gowasked the Prime Minister whether he is satisfied that no breach of the principle of collective Cabinet responsibility took place in the speech of the Secretary of State for Energy at the Press Gallery luncheon on 14th February 1977.
    The Prime Minister: Yes.
    Mr. Gow: Does the Prime Minister recall that in that speech the Secretary of State advocated that the Labour
    1232
    Cabinet should be elected by Labour Back Benchers? Since the Government have now abandoned their major policies—the Dock Work Regulation Bill, the ship repairing section of the Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Bill, and the Community Land Act—would he not agree that if he and his colleagues came up for election now they would not be in their present positions?
    The Prime Minister: The hon. Member is a relatively new Member of the House. Therefore, I should remind him of a little personal history. From 1951 steadily until 1964, and from 1970 until 1974, my colleagues in the Parliamentary Labour Party, for good or for ill, elected me to the Shadow Cabinet. I am very grateful to them, and I do not think that there is any reason to believe that there would be any change now. As regards the doctrine of collective responsibility, I thought that my right hon. Friend's speech would appeal to the hon. Gentleman because the whole theme concerned the elevation of the doctrine of parliamentary democracy and parliamentary supremacy in this House. If the hon. Member does not agree with that, he is not fit to be a Member of Parliament.
    Mr. Skinner: Is the Prime Minister aware that the difficulty facing the Leader of the Opposition is not in recruiting people to the Shadow Cabinet but in managing to keep them once they are there? There are now six top Tories who refuse to settle in the Leader of the Opposition's political nest. Could my right hon. Friend offer any advice, or does he think that the right hon. Lady would be better advised to send a letter to Marjorie Proops?
    The Prime Minister: I have noticed my hon. Friend's keen interest in the affairs of the Conservative Party, and I hope that that is not an indirect way of applying for a position himself.
    Mr. Pardoe: Does the Prime Minister recognise that if the principles of the Secretary of State for Energy were extended to the election of the Leader of the Labour Party by the mass membership of the party there would be a difficulty, because the leader would then have to be elected by ghosts?
    The Prime Minister: I am very reassured by the hon. Member's touching faith

    1233
    in election by the full membership, in view of what happened to him.
    Mr. Baker: On the question of collective responsibility of the Cabinet, has the Prime Minister had the opportunity to discuss with his colleagues the statement he has made on three separate occasions in the last week that there will not be a General Election this year? Does he think that the British public would be wise to give as much weight to these denials as it gave to the denials he made in the summer of 1967 that there would be no devaluation that year?
    The Prime Minister: I paid for those statements in full in November 1967. If the hon. Member ever has the misfortune to be Chancellor at a time when there is a fixed exchange rate, he might find that there are occasions when he has to make a stand on a position that he is not able to justify fully. That is one of the responsibilities of being Chancellor. On the question of a General Election, what I have indicated about trends moving in the right direction for the British economy continue to be borne out by the new announcement this week that the price of materials and of fuel rose by only ½ per cent. last month. Comparing this figure with that of a year ago, this holds out considerable hope for the slackening of inflation that we all want to see. It also holds out new hope for the prospect of a new wages agreement. A year ago these prices were going up by 4 per cent. a month, and last month the figure was only ½ per cent., so this is a very remarkable improvement. Irrespective of party interests, the hon. Member should welcome the fact that inflation is bound to slow down if this trend continues.

    STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS, &c.
    Ordered,
    That the draft Redundant Mineworkers and Concessionary Coal (Payments) (Amendment) Order 1977 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.—[Mr. Bales.]
    That the draft Mineworkers' Pension Scheme (Limit on Contributions) Order 1977 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments, &c.—[Mr. Bates.]

ESTATE AGENTS (AGREEMENTS)
3.31 p.m.
Mr. Cyril Smith: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide protection for the vendors of real property when placing their property in the hands of estate agents, particularly, but not exclusively, those agents who advertise on a no-sale, no-fee basis.
I wish to make two comments at the outset of my remarks. This Bill is introduced as a consequence of the experience of one of my constituents. I wish to make it clear that I do not believe that every estate agent is a disreputable shark. As in every area of activity in life, there are disreputable people and there are smart-alec estate agents. However, no reputable estate agent who acts honestly and fairly has anything to fear from my Bill. I take the view that the House should seek to defend individuals against dictatorial bureaucracy and should also defend consumers against the clever smart-alec who is out to earn quick money at the expense of others.
The case of my constituent is a simple one. He decided to emigrate and went to see an estate agent who advertised my constituent's property on the basis of no-sale, no-fee. The constituent agreed that the agent should try to sell his house on that no-sale, no-fee basis. The agent then produced a document and told my constituent "Sign here". My constituent signed the document after questioning the no-sale, no-fee part of the advertisement. My constituent's house was then advertised for two Saturdays only and on one of those days at least the advert was wrong.
The vendor then changed his mind and decided not to sell because he could not obtain his papers to emigrate. He then phoned the estate agent to withdraw the sale of the house. Nobody from the agency had visited the house, and there had been no notice in the garden or anything of that kind. All the agent did was to place two advertisements in a newspaper, one of which, as I have said, was in error.
The vendor was then told that he had "broken the contract" and received a bill for £44·42p, being £3·29 VAT and—wait for it—£41·13p fees. Incidentally, the

1235
account refers to "half fees as per contract". After a little delay, my constituent received a copy of the contract eight months after he had initially signed it. He then realised the situation—despite the fact that the estate agent's advertisement said that there would be no fee without a sale, and indeed the advertisement which I have in my hand said "No sale—no fee or expenses at all", and the other advertisement said, "No sale, no fee or expenses at all—even Press advertisements". Although that was the basis on which the agent had advertised, my constituent realised that those conditions apply only if a property is left with that estate agent exclusively for six months. Because the vendor withdrew the property in a shorter period than six months, the estate agent could proceed legally to claim his fees. I shall not weary the House with all the details of the case, but I merely sum up the situation by saying that ultimately the estate agent took out a summons against the vendor for £48·92p, which included £4·50p court fee.
I feel that this matter requires to be remedied by legislation. Therefore, I seek leave to introduce this Bill to ensure that such a thing cannot happen again.
My Bill proposes, first, that any agreement by an estate agent to sell a property for a vendor shall have a written contract, even if the agreement is a verbal one. Secondly, the estate agent shall serve upon the vendor within seven days of such an agreement a copy of the agreement, and notice of the vendor's rights under the rest of the Bill is to be included with the copy supplied to the vendor. If the estate agent does not comply with that rule, no agreement shall be enforceable by him.
Thirdly, under the Bill the vendor is allowed from service of the copy agreement on him 10 days in which to terminate the agreement, without liability. That is similar to the cooling-off period in a hire purchase agreement.
Fourthly, the Bill provides that where the estate agent advertises on a no-sale, no-fee basis, he shall not be able to charge a fee if no sale is effected and notwithstanding anything in the contract.
My Bill defines "the vendor" and defines the "estate agent" as
"any person or legal personality which undertakes the sale of real property for reward
1236
Where that real property is used for purposes of residence".
This Bill has been drafted for me by a good friend, Mr. Alistair Webster, a young Rochdale barrister of great ability. I assure the House that the Bill will be published, assuming that leave is granted by the House today.
My constituent who came to see me was a Mr. Newall, of 570, Manchester Road, Rochdale. The estate agents involved, to whom I have spoken, were Kendal Estates Ltd.
I do not believe that there is anything in the Bill to cause offence to decent, honest, fair-minded people. I cannot believe there is anything in it to cause concern to decent estate agents—although I must say, judging by my correspondence, that some of them flutter and splutter if they think an attack on their citadel is about to take place.
I hope that the Government will find it possible to give time to my Bill. It is a consumer protection Bill, and I have very much appreciated the interest taken in it by the Minister of State, Department of Prices and Consumer Protection. The Minister has taken a voluntary interest in my Bill.
I see my Bill as a first step in an area of activity that requires action and investigation. I believe that some of the fees charged are exorbitant. They should be related to work done and not to sale price.
This is a decent little Bill to help the consumer and to ensure that if he is taken for a ride by an estate agent he has nobody to blame but himself. I hope that the House will agree to its introduction.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Cyril Smith, Mr. David Penhaligon, Mr. Clement Freud and Mr. John Pardoe.

ESTATE AGENTS (AGREEMENTS)
Mr. Cyril Smith accordingly presented a Bill to provide protection for the vendors of real property when placing their property in the hands of estate agents, particularly, but not exclusively, those agents who advertise on a no-sale, no-fee basis; And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 22nd April and to be printed. [Bill 76.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY
  INTERNATIONAL FINANCE, TRADE AND AID BILL
  As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
New Clause 1

  LIMIT ON BORROWINGS FROM THE INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND
  '(1) Treasury borrowings from the International Monetary Fund may not exceed 145 per cent, of its quota with that Fund, except as provided in subsection (2) of this section.
  (2) The Treasury may by order raise the limit imposed by subsection (1) of this section on borrowings from the Fund.
  (3) The power of the Treasury to make orders under this section shall be exercisable by statutory instrument, and no such order shall be made until a draft has been laid before and approved by a resolution of the House of Commons.'.—[Mr. Hordern.]
  Brought up, and read the First time.
  3.40 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Hordern: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
  The purpose of the clause is to put in order, if possible, the Government's borrowing from the International Monetary Fund. As the House knows, the Government have borrowed 145 per cent. of their quota with the IMF while the permitted amount is only 125 per cent. The Government had to obtain special consent from the Jamaica Conference in order to do that. The Government's total borrowing, of which this 145 per cent. of the quota forms part, now amounts to $12·9 billion, which is a huge sum. The Financial Secretary was good enough to tell us that that was the total indebtedness for which the Government have been responsible since March 1974. Of that, $3·1 billion came from the IMF, $2·5 billion was a direct loan to the Government, and $7·3 billion has been borrowed by various sections of the public sector.
  We were told that we were allowed the temporary increase in our quota in order to accommodate the Government's appetite. This was agreed in the Standby Agreement that was signed on 3rd
  1238
  January 1976. We had to go above our quota of 125 per cent. I assume that we shall have to revert to 125 per cent. when we repay our loans to the IMF. We have asked the Financial Secretary on a number of occasions how this is to be done technically. I assume that the mode of operation will be that as loans are repaid we shall get down to the quota figure or when we reach the new quota at the beginning of 1978 our borrowings will form the new proportion of that quota and in those circumstances will not amount to 145 per cent. We are by far the largest borrowers from the IMF. We have been borrowing far more than the developing countries.
  I want to take up a point that was made by the Financial Secretary on Second Reading. He said:
  "The problem of dealing with surplus revenues acquired by the oil producers is still with us and is likely to remain with us for a long time. It will remain with us as long as those countries do not use this money, which comes from the sale of oil, for imports and their own development projects."—[Official Report, 31st January 1977; Vol. 925, c. 51.]
  That is typical of the Government's approach to the imbalance with the OPEC countries. It is as though it were the fault of the oil countries for being able to obtain what the market will give for their products.
  It seems quite clear that, while other developed countries—with the sole exception of Italy—have been able to get into reasonable balance with the OPEC countries, we are the only developed country unable to do so. There is no reason why we should not have put ourselves in a position similar to that of other Western European countries and the United States in relation to the OPEC countries and the balance of payments. It is as though the OPEC countries were, to some extent, held to blame for obtaining the market price for their oil. We shall not be complaining when we come into the 1980s and have a surplus of oil to export. I cannot imagine the Government—if it still is a Labour Government, and I hope that it will not be—complaining then about excess oil and the embarrassment it gives to other countries.
  We have had a chance to sell industrial goods to OPEC countries—and that is more of a chance than the developing countries have had because of their inability to produce industrial goods of

  1239
  the kind wanted by the OPEC countries. The developing countries built up a deficit of $31 billion in 1976.
  Now the World Bank is talking about replenishment of $9 billion for the IDA. The Government have already borrowed far more than that. So far, this problem of imbalance between developed and developing countries has been met by the Euro-currency market and not by recourse to the IMF. We now find that 40 per cent. of the Euro-currency market has been engaged with COMECON or developing countries' loans and on both accounts—both for the COMECON countries and the developing countries—according to any normal banking criteria, these must be adjudged as doubtful risks. It may be said that this is merely the market's risk and that it is the market's responsibility to decide whether to engage in such risks, but that is to ignore the extent of the existing commitments that the Euro-currency market has in developing countries and, indeed, with COME-CON countries. It seems right, therefore, that, at least for the developing countries, the IMF should be the bank of last resort.
  Turning to the IMF letter of intent, with which the new clause is inextricably bound, I ask the Financial Secretary what the Government's decision is on the sale of BP shares. In the letter of intent, the Government engaged to sell £500 million of BP shares. That was a condition of the loan. But we now hear—through the usual subterranean channels that the Government employ—that the project is in some doubt. The Financial Secretary should take this opportunity of confirming that the sale of the shares remains Government policy as one of the commitments under the letter of intent. I do not know whether the Government may change their mind about the sale of the shares. I understand that they believe that the position has changed a good deal for the better since the letter of intent was signed. There is some evidence that this is so, and it looks as though the public sector borrowing requirement may be less than was at first feared. Will the Financial Secretary tell the House what the position is?
  It would not be unusual for the Government to have second thoughts about the disposal of the shares. They have had second thoughts on a number of
  1240
  occasions recently, for example, about councils employing direct labour, about ship repairing and about devolution. For my part, I much prefer the Government's second thoughts to their first thoughts. But what is the position now? The House ought to be told what it is and what the Government intentions are about the letter of intent and particularly about the sale of the BP shares.
  I understand that there will be a further increase in the IMF's quota by February 1978. We do not know how large future quotas will be, but they will not require legislation by the House because of the terms of this Bill. We make it clear that we regard this as a most retrograde step. Previously, IMF Bills were introduced by the Chancellor. IMF quotas have always been increased by virtue of the passage of a Bill.
  The amounts to be provided in future will be far greater and will exceed anything that has been put before the House in the past. But they will be brought forward by affirmative resolutions that allow just one and a half hours for debate and that the House can only take or leave. It would, of course, be serious for the Opposition to turn down such a proposition. This is a most retrograde step because the House will lose the opportunity of discussing IMF policy towards quotas, the developing world, the rôle of gold, SDRs and exchange rate policy.
  There are few occasions when the House is able to discuss important aspects of these policies. These policies are not important just because of their size or content. They have importance for every person in the country. It seems to be a retrograde step if we have reached the state of affairs where huge sums of borrowed money, expressed in SDRs or in terms of exchange rates, will be brought before the House by affirmative resolution late at night. It is disgraceful that the Government should attempt to cut out all future debates on these important matters by means of this Bill.
  In Committee and on Second Reading we touched on the important question of surveillance. The Government are about to sign a formal treaty which says in Section 3 of Article 4 under the title "General obligations of members" that they will avoid manipulating exchange

  1241
  rates or the international monetary system in order to prevent effective balance of payments adjustment or to gain an unfair competitive advantage over other members.
  How can the Government square this undertaking with their present policy? It is difficult to know what the Government's policy is and impossible to make any sense of it. For example, they are taking out a loan to fend off hot money in the official balances, only to encourage an enormous increase in the inflow of funds over the exchanges on privately-held balances which could be just as volatile as were the old official balances.
  A few months ago, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that an exchange rate of $1·80 was far too low for sterling. Why then is he so busily employed in keeping sterling at $1·70? It is difficult to make any sense of the Government's financial and exchange rate policy. It has the effect of keeping the exchange rate down and deliberately increasing prices far more than would otherwise have been the case. This causes higher unemployment than we would otherwise have. I am reminded of the song from
  "South Pacific" which goes:
  Who can explain it,
  Who can tell you why?
  Fools give you reasons,
  Wise men never try."
  That is the only piece of wisdom that the Government have so far shown in their total inability to explain their economic, monetary and exchange rate policy.?
  I do not think that they are able to make any sense of their policy. Money is still coming into this country, attracted by levels of interest rates which have been deliberately held too high in order to encourage foreign funds. I do not know why the people of this country should be expected to take on this extra burden of debt and face increased prices and unemployment because of a deliberate act of policy. I hope that the Minister will be able to make some sense of what seems to be an inexplicable policy.
  Mr. Ian Stewart: I support the important new clause. At the heart of all our considerations of the relationship between this country and the International Monetary Fund is our experience in the recent past and the way in
  1242
  which the Government have had to have access to the facilities of the fund in order to cope with our economic problems.
  As the rôle of the IMF has become more important in the world economy, as its means of currency—special drawing rights—have been given a greater rôle and as the new amendments, which will have United Kingdom authority if the Bill is passed, are approved, the functions of the IMF are being extended. We have no quarrel with that. We argue that alongside this increase in the significance and involvement of the IMF parliamentary control over the Government's relations with the fund is being diminished.
  If the Bill is enacted without the new clause there will be little restraint on the amount that any Government can borrow under the fund arrangements. Even now, our quota is abnormally high. It is still more than one-third above the quota of the United States and is larger than the quota of West Germany. Yet it is Government policy to reduce the rôle of sterling as a reserve currency.
  The part that sterling has played as a reserve currency in the past has been one of the main factors in ensuring that our quota has been so high. If this rôle is reduced we can expect our quota to be lower, if not in absolute terms at least in relation to the increasing quotas of other nations, whether industrialised, non-industrial or Third World countries.
  The problem affecting a country such as our own is not that we have too little credit but that we have too much. The more credit that anyone has, whether an improvident Government or an improvident person, the greater is the encouragement to spend now and pay later, and this is what has happened with our economic affairs.
  When resort to the IMF is unavoidable, it is better that it should take place sooner rather than later. Had our ability to draw from the fund not permitted an increase of 45 per cent. last year on an already high figure the Government would have had to contemplate resort to the fund much earlier, and that would probably have meant that instead of the half-baked measures of last July and another dose of the cuts in December we could have got the whole thing over in one go and saved ourselves a great deal of pain

  1243
  and misery in the process. Had it been necessary, because of a reduced ability to borrow from the fund, to meet the fund's loan conditions at the time of the July measures, it would have saved us from six months of worsening crisis.
  In June last year the minimum lending rate was 11½ per cent. In September it was 13 per cent., and by October it had reached 15 per cent. We are still not back to the level of interest rates that prevailed immediately before the July measures.
  Before the July measures, the sterling exchange rate against the dollar was 1·80. Following the lack of success of those measures it fell, at one point, to 1·57 and, although it had recovered to the 1·60s by December, only since the IMF measures at the end of last year has the pound achieved reasonable stability.
  We see the effect of all this in the recent performance of the retail price index. We were all pleased to note that the exceptional increase of last month has slackened off, but it is disgraceful that by July last year the increase was still double the rate that applied just before the General Election in October 1974. This is a direct result of the decline of the sterling exchange rate and the fact that the July measures, without the sanction of the IMF, were insufficient to restore financial stability and economic confidence.
  It would be a great advantage if we could tighten parliamentary control over the Executive, rather than the other way round. The fund is a lender of last resort and is not an easy-going finance house that splashes out undisciplined credit to all comers. Special drawing rights are not plastic money that can be spent by extravagant Governments without concern. The IMF is a serious institution and its purpose is to provide loans under difficult circumstances to the unfortunate and the improvident. But no one can claim that it is misfortune that has brought the Government to their IMF borowings. They have been brought there by their own mismanagement and extravagance.
  4.0 p.m.
  It is a disgrace that twice within 10 years Labour Governments have been forced to resort to conditional finance
  1244
  from the IMF. That is unparalleled for a trading country of our international standing. We should guard against allowing future Governments—not necessarily Labour Governments; any sort of Governments—in this country and in other countries having more credit available to them from the IMF than is good for them.
  If we do not retain more direct parliamentary control over the way in which Governments can borrow when they have resort to the IMF, it is a direct encouragement to them to overspend and to put off the evil day as long as possible. There is no doubt that had the right measures been taken in the middle of last year they would have saved us from six months of worsening unemployment, worsening inflation and a deteriorating foreign exchange position.
  I strongly support the new clause, in the hope that it will retain for the Houses of Parliament some control over the Executive in this important area.
  The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Robert Sheldon): The hon. Member for Horsham and Crawley (Mr. Hordern) began by discussing the problems arising from the oil surplus. The hon. Gentleman considered that the difficulties occasioned by those countries with surplus funds arising from the enormous increase in the price of oil had been overstated by the Government and were wrongly attributable as a cause of our problems. I do not say that our problems are entirely due to the increase in the price of oil as that would be to take an absurd position. We have many long-term problems that have little to owe to that occurrence. At the same time, it would be a mistake to underestimate the importance to the developed and the developing countries of the enormous increase in revenues obtained by the OPEC countries as a result of oil price increases.
  I shall give some indication how the problem arose and how it is still with us. Although it is generally believed that the problem is declining—certainly it has been coped with extraordinarily successfully—we would be wrong to fail to understand the nature of the continuing problem that is still before us.
  I do not want to weary the House with figures but essentially the argument depends upon the surpluses that can be

  1245
  revealed only by the quotation of a selected number of figures. In 1973 the OPEC countries had a current balance of $863 million. In 1974, it rose to $60 billion. In 1975 it declined to $32 billion. In 1976 it rose again to $36 billion. The indications are that it will continue at around that level. That is a measure of the liquidity that has been created in the OPEC countries. The developed countries and the developing countries have had to absorb the surpluses and the unspent parts of the moneys that the OPEC countries have received.
  This is an international problem. We are fortunate in having a body of the reputation and expertise of the IMF. We should be wrong to assume that the problem is, as some have put it, almost on its way out because one or two of the OPEC countries have been spending an increased proportion of their surpluses.
  The hon. Member for Horsham and Crawley asked me about the letter of intent and the Government's position in respect of BP shares. As he rightly asserted, our position was spelt out in the letter of intent. The PSBR target, of which this was a part, finds its way into that letter. The Government have accepted the PSBR target but it is up to the Government to decide how to reach it. That will be among the other matters for further consideration.
  The hon. Gentleman asked that important matters such as IMF quotas and their negotiation be part of the legislative process of this House. The hon. Gentleman rightly pointed out the way in which such matters have been treated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on previous occasions. Those occasions were quite rare. In 1944, there was the Bretton Woods Agreement. The first fundamental change came in 1968. That change came after 24 years. We know already that there will be the changes that we are now discussing and the changes that will arise from the further negotiations that will take place in a year or two.
  The pace of change reflects some of the increasing problems that we find in international monetary affairs. It seems that the pace will increase and that it is unnecessary to arrange the same provisions. At one time changes were rare and much more significant events in the
  1246
  life of the IMF but the conditions have changed.
  The hon. Gentleman asked about Article 4, which deals with the firm surveillance of changes in exchange rates and imposes upon member countries the rights of obtaining information and of consulting the IMF. The details have yet to be worked out, but the article lays down the principles that will be followed and the various discussions that will take place to provide the pattern that will be followed, although that is some way ahead of us.
  Although I can say something about exchange rate policy I fear that it will not come as any surprise to the hon. Gentleman to hear that it will be little more than a restatement of what I have already provided for him. The hon. Gentleman, the hon. Member for Hitchin (Mr. Stewart) and all members of the Committee will be aware that these are delicate matters and that I can speak about the Government's position only in broad outline. It will be recognised that at the end of the day exchange rate policy is determined, crucially, by the market's reaction—namely, by those overseas who want sterling and are prepared to hold it. Accordingly, the value of sterling is determined by the views of those who want it and hold it.
  The Government's rôle, which is much diminished, is to avoid excessive fluctuations, realising that ultimately the competitiveness of our goods will be determined by the exchange rate that outside forces determine.
  The hon. Member for Horsham and Crawley asked about our debt as a percentage of our quota. The hon. Gentleman will know that as foreign exchange is repaid over the period envisaged the percentage of the quota that is measured by the debt will be reduced, and that whether it is a percentage of the present or the future quota is a matter of little significance as it will be reduced as it is paid out.
  The hon. Member for Hitchin asked about the reason for borrowing. I shall try to give some explanation in terms of our own position and the position generally. It may be that if we had adopted more strongly deflationary measures at an earlier stage the deficit would have been made much less. But the hon.

  1247
  Gentleman must also understand that as long as these OPEC countries were not reducing their own levels of liquidity, it would only have found its way into some other country's increasing deficits.
  It was the hope, and at one time the expectation, that there would be a great concert of action by the developed countries on these matters. Unfortunately, that did not work out. The international co-operation was not as great as many of us hoped for at the time. But the problem is still with us.
  It must be hoped that both the IMF and the developed countries, bearing in mind their need to assist the developing countries which are themselves carrying the major burden of the surplus funds for OPEC, will come to some suitable arrangement which will retain the international advantages that we have had of stability in the foreign exchanges. But the future is by no means crystal clear, and the hope that I have expressed has yet to be converted into the reality which we shall need if we are to be able to obtain the kind of stability in the future that we had in the post-Bretton Woods years.
  Mr. Cecil Parkinson: The object of the new clause is to place a limit on the amount the Government can borrow from the International Monetary Fund. Our quota to the IMF is fixed in the Bill, under which Parliament retains the right to have a say about any increase in that quota. The Treasury can increase the quota only with the permission of Parliament.
  We have three reasons for the new clause. The first was mentioned by the Financial Secretary when he talked about the problems of the developed and the developing countries. One of the first results of the new clause, if incorporated into the Bill, would be to limit this country's call on the IMF's scarce resources without the permission of Parliament. As I said on Second Reading, we believe that this is extremely important. It is wrong that a country with such a relatively high standard of living compared with that of many countries in the developing world should be pre-empting a huge slice of the IMF's scarce resources, and we get no pleasure from the fact that Britain is the biggest borrower in the history of the IMF. The new
  1248
  clause would thus enable Parliament to limit the amount of borrowing by the Government from the IMF.
  Our second reason is that the new clause would limit the Government's ability to pledge the credit of the country. We believe that it has been much too easy for this Government—and Labour Governments in the past have also taken advantage of it—to pledge this country's credit without having to discuss with Parliament the amount they were trying to borrow. The third principal reason for the new clause is that it would strengthen Parliament's control over the Executive in taking vital decisions about overseas borrowing by this country.
  4.15 p.m.
  One of the features of the Bill is that it contains within it no fewer than eight separate guillotines. If the Bill becomes law, the Government will be permitted, by means of eight debates of one and a half hours each, to increase the limit of our quota to the IMF, to increase the limit of the ECGD, and to increase the lending to the Commonwealth Development Corporation. If the Bill becomes law as it stands, Parliament effectively will have surrendered its ability to have a full debate about any plan of the Government to increase any of the limits under those three headings. We have these eight individual guillotines built into the Bill because, by using Statutory Instruments, the Government will be able to avoid having a major debate about the IMF or the ECGD or the CDC for several years.
  We feel this to be slightly alraming. It is a common argument by Governments that parliamentary time is so precious that they are doing Parliament a favour by finding it ways of saving its own time. But what they are saying, in effect, is that they are finding ways to fill up our time with new legislation and to limit discussion about past decisions. We feel that this is a deplorable trend. We feel that the argument is unsound. We feel that Parliament should spend less time legislating and more time reviewing some of the Government's previous less-than-welcome decisions.
  Under our new clause, one limit would be placed on the Government. They would not be able to pledge this country's credit beyond a certain level without the

  1249
  approval of Parliament. It is absurd that the Government should have to come to the House should they wish to increase our quota to the IMF but not if they make arrangements with the IMF to borrow 200 per cent. of our existing quota. There is no limit in the Bill for controlling the Government's ability to borrow from the IMF, but there is an ability to control the Government's lending to or depositing with the IMF. Since, in recent years, we have been notable borrowers and not notable depositors, we think it important that our control of the Government's powers to borrow should be strengthened.
  We also believe that it is wrong that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should come to the House, having conducted his negotiations with the IMF and made all the arrangements, and say to us "This is the arrangement I have made—take it or leave it. I warn you that if you leave it, the bottom will fall out of the pound." In the words of the Godfather, the Government, under the present arrangement, have the ability to make the House an offer that it simply cannot refuse.
  We do not think that that is proper. We feel that the Government should have to come to the House and discuss with it their intention to borrow more than the amount already fixed by Parliament. We feel that, if the Government want to exceed that limit, they must explain their motives and get parliamentary approval before they do it. Anyone treating with the Government would then know that only if they got approval could the limit be changed.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson), in an interesting speech in Committee, pointed out that there is a gap in our parliamentary controls. I know that the Financial Secretary does not agree, but he has not produced a convincing answer. My hon. Friend pointed out that in theory Parliament is in control of expenditure, that in theory it fixes the taxes, and that in theory it therefore controls the gap—the difference between the Government's expenditure and the Government's income. But, as he also pointed out, Parliament's methods or ability to control that gap are severely circumscribed.
  In fact it is very difficult for Parliament to be able to claim that is is in
  1250
  control of Government spending plans, as the Financial Secretary pointed out to the House over and over again in his previous incarnation as Chairman of the General Sub-Committee of the Expenditure Committee. He knew just how inadequate Parliament's controls of Government expenditure were. It is said that Parliament fixes taxes, but Parliament does not control expenditure, although it tries to do so. Parliament has no control at all on how the Government fund the gap. We feel that Parliament should have some control.
  We do not think that it is any sort of measure of Parliament's control of the Government and of the Executive that the Financial Secretary should be able to come to the Committee two weeks ago to tell us that the present Government have increased this country's overseas borrowing from £7 billion to £20 billion in under three years. Parliament was not consulted about the borrowing. This debate, on the Floor of the House, is the first chance that Parliament has had to comment.
  Were our new clause to be accepted by the House it certainly would not be a perfect system for extending Parliament's control over a wide range of Government activity, but we suggest that it would be one way of controlling one element in the Government's plans which is at present outside Parliament's control, namely, the ability of the Government to pledge this country's credit overseas.
  Question put and negatived.

New Clause 2

  REPORT ON RESEARCH WORK OF THE INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND
  'The Treasury shall lay before Parliament each year a report on the research work of the International Monetary Fund, on the application of the research to the Fund's operations, on the economic theories underlying those operations, and on the accumulation of evidence for and against those theories'.—[Dr. Bray.]
  Brought up, and read the First time.
  Dr. Jeremy Bray: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine): With this we may take

  1251
  Amendment No. 10, in the title, line 4, after '1962', insert:
  to provide for the presentation of certain information with respect to the Fund to Parliament'.
  Dr. Bray: My reason for tabling the new clause is to give us a further opportunity to discuss a matter which was ventilated in Committee, with echoes of it from Second Reading, but I do not think that we have adequately disposed of the matter.
  I confess that I had the impression of an uncritical response to the IMF conditions in the recent drawing, not from the point of view of disliking conditions of any kind, which is an understandable attitude on the part of a debtor, but uncritical in the sense that the conditions were wrongly conceived. The conditions were working in the IMF's traditional monetarist framework, which would be an embarrassment to any serious monetary economist and an excrescence to economists who are not in any way monetary economists. The device imposed on us in the IMF conditions was that of domestic credit expansion.
  This adds up to the fact that, if we fall behind in our recovery in the balance of payments along the path projected by the Treasury at the time when the conditions were negotiated, we shall have to squeeze our money supply. The further behind that we fall in our balance of payments, the tighter we shall have to squeeze our money supply. The idea that our balance of payments and money supply are directly reciprocal in nature, so that we can reduce the balance of payments by reducing our money supply, is unbelievably naïve in the real world.
  The matter is not academic. It can be argued that the course projected by the Treasury was the best calculated course to take us out of an extremely difficult position in which we should never have landed ourselves, and that the best calculated course was to increase the constraints on public expenditure and so on.
  Let us suppose that that course was the best-judged course for the recovery of the economy. If we then depart from that course in any way, the judgment on how we are correcting our policies to take account of the changed circumstances is
  1252
  crucial. The correction that we have had imposed on us is that of the formula of domestic credit expansion which I have outlined. We are bound to depart from the trajectory projected by the Treasury. We are already doing so. We do not know how it will develop later in the year.
  We are faced with having this curious weapon of domestic credit expansion used against us. It can be argued that, if we come well within the IMF requirements on domestic credit expansion, it does not matter because we are free to run our policies as we like. If, however, we come comfortably within those figures, that will indicate room for a relaxation of policies in some way but within the specific IMF constraints.
  It was suggested earlier that our rate of interest, for example, could come down, which would help investment and help to reduce the rate of inflation. I thoroughly agree that it would have a desirable effect in reducing the inflow of hot money into the country, but presumably one reason why the Chancellor is not reducing interest rates is that he is having to watch the targets set by the IMF, because strange things can happen to those variables in the coming months. Perhaps there is some hankering in his mind which tells him that if we get into a strong enough position we can somehow escape from the IMF conditions altogether.
  It seems to me too hazardous a course to suspect any Chancellor or any Government to plan to repay the IMF loan with hot money and then transgress the IMF conditions, so that if we were in an exposed position next July, with a rewinding of leads and lags, and there was a rush of hot money out of the country, we should have no defence at all. I cannot believe that that is the strategy in the Chancellor's mind. It, must, therefore, be some worry about having to fulfil the conditions of the IMF loan as they are. The reason why we have had that strange halter of domestic credit expansion put round our necks is that it first appeared in the IMF staff papers by Mr. Polak, now director of research for the IMF, which seems to have been the basis of IMF operations in many countries for the past 20 years. That is one thing that I should like to see examined.

  1253
  But another example of the uncritical attitude to the IMF's work has landed not only us but the international community generally in a less-than-happy situation. On Second Reading I asked the Minister whether, in the light of the integrated programme on commodities, the drawings by developing countries to finance their contribution to buffer stocks would affect their right to draw on other IMF facilities. I was assured that any drawing by any country to finance buffer stock facilities would not be taken into account in assessing its general credit position. I find that incredible. If it is true, all that the developing countries have to do is to set up a series of paper commodity schemes and open up a line of credit for themselves through the IMF to finance their contribution to a commodity scheme which in that event could be wholly producer-financed.
  Presumably, a more considered reply would bring out that this was hedged about in various ways not only in UNCTAD but also in the IMF as it would operate in practice. But whatever the true position, the IMF has a crucial rôle to play through its buffer stock facility in the integrated programme on commodities. This is of grave economic importance to us, because one reason suggested for a certain softening of the attitude of industrial countries to the concept of a common fund is that they are worried about the possibility of a world recession. They see the financing of buffer stocks as a sensible means of enabling the developed countries to contribute to the reflation of the world economy in a way which has a sound economic basis. We would therefore be able to serve our own economic interests better as well as adopting a more constructive rôle in the common fund negotiations at the IMF, the World Bank or UNCTAD, by pursuing the appropriate studies and integrating them with policy to put us in a clearer position concerning the views of others about differing interests.
  4.30 p.m.
  To make it quite clear that it is in order in this debate to refer to the IMF's facilitiy to finance buffer stocks in terms of the current negotiation conference on the common fund, I have set out the background to why the IMF should put
  1254
  more effort into this research. The background to the current negotiations on the common fund was the Nairobi Conference in May 1976 which launched the integrated programme on commodities.
  The idea behind the common fund is that the developing countries felt that progress on individual commodity schemes was held up because there was a reluctance to finance an individual scheme. However, they felt that if some source of funds through a common fund was available it would be more easy to finance the individual schemes as they came along. The UNCTAD IV resolution on the common fund does not lay down any principles for the common fund or for individual schemes, but these were considered in earlier reports by the secretary-general.
  The pattern that emerges is that the case made by the secretariat recognised all the problems of setting up commodity schemes and argued that they were eased by having a common fund facility. But we do not have too much detail about how the schemes would work or about what tests would be imposed on a particular scheme to see whether it was eligibile for financing from the common fund.
  Under great political pressure from the developing countries and the Group of 77, UNCTAD agreed to have this negotiating conference on the setting up of the common fund here in March 1977 before there had been any definition of the concept of the common fund, let alone any measure of agreement reached between the differing interests as to what the common fund would be. One can see the difficulties when one gets down to examining the preparatory meetings which have taken place on the particular commodities.
  For example, the preparatory meeting on copper was followed by a meeting of intergovernmental experts on copper. That meeting listed some 27 different studies which needed to be carried out before anyone could say what a sensible copper stabilisation scheme would look like. The developing countries may well have assumed that this was mere procrastination, but when one looks at what the actual studies are about it is difficult to argue that they are not relevant to a copper stabilisation scheme.

  1255
  For example, the list included a study of the structure of trade in copper, including the amount of copper moving through integrated operations, barter, long-term contracts and commodity markets. It went on to a description of marketing and pricing methods and the effects on the patterns of trade and the rôle of terminal markets, the capital requirements of new mining operations and related costs of production and long-term trends in demand and supply. These are all highly relevant to the design of a copper stabilisation scheme.
  It is interesting that the reaction of the Secretary-General of UNCTAD after the meeting was to say:
  "It is premature to draw any conclusions of a general nature from the two preparatory meetings and the one expert group meeting so far held. However, while the Secretary-General of UNCTAD fully appreciates the importance which governments attach to detailed studies and the fact that the amount of relevant preparatory work done prior to adoption of the Integrated Programme varies from commodity to commodity, he would like to stress the need to balance requests for additional studies against the need to move expeditiously towards negotiations within the time-frame set by the Conference in resolution 93(IV)."
  That is a very understandable reaction. However, it is not clear what would be done when the studies were completed. Instead of simply pursuing a purely political programme of discussion on commodities, UNCTAD, or the IMF standing behind it with its financing facilities, or the World Bank or national Governments could have initiated a series of policy optimisation studies designed to see how commodity stabilisation schemes would operate. The practicalities of such policy optimisation studies might be illustrated from work on other commodities.
  Smith and Schink, in the current issue of the Economic Journal, have done work on the International Tin Agreement. They say that the International Tin Council has had only the most marginal effect on the movement of tin prices or their stabilisation and that the larger pressures have been exerted by the United States strategic stockpile. They also show that the objectives of the stabilisation of income and prices are not necessarily mutually compatible.
  Further work of a more wide-ranging character was done by Kim, Goreux
  1256
  and Kendrick for the World Bank, in this case on cocoa stabilisation. The main point brought out was that there is a conflict in the different objectives of stabilisation of price and incomes. The cost of such studies, which no doubt has been a factor in the mind of the secretariat, which can only pay its own salaries, is minute compared with the £6 billion that UNCTAD is asking effectively from the IMF in order to finance the common fund.
  We therefore have the situation in which we go into the negotiations with grossly under-researched attitudes. One talks to Ministers who say that they have had the best possible briefing. The best possible briefing that I would want for commodities in London would probably, be from a body like the Commodities Research Unit. That body was commissioned by the State Department to give the American Government a briefing on copper in particular. It was not asked for any briefing by any Department in Whitehall. Let us consider the composition of the United Kingdom delegation to the UNCTAD expert meeting on copper, because one can then understand why no briefing was sought.
  I do not believe in the conspiracy theory on any aspect of Government, and I do not take a sinister view of the operations of Rio Tinto-Zinc. It is interesting, however, that of the three non-governmental representatives on the British delegation, two came from Rio Tinto. The deputy chairman of that company is Lord Shackleton, a former Labour Minister and Leader of the House of Lords. It was Rio Tinto-Zinc which proposed the quite disastrous aluminium smelter scheme which was negotiated by the present Secretary of State for Trade in the late 1960s and was in my right hon. Friend's very interesting book as a prime illustration of how to handle relations between Government and industry.
  It is natural that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade, in looking for supposed experts on commodity stabilisation, should look to his friends in Rio Tinto-Zinc. But, frankly, that is not the source of the best guidance in terms either of the national interest or of the technical design of commodity stabilisation schemes. One should be able to expect from the British Government, and

  1257
  certainly from a Labour Government, a rather more critical attitude in the shaping of policy than we have seen displayed so far in the UNCTAD common fund and commodity negotiations.
  Mr. Tim Renton: Before leaving the subject of the British mining finance companies, would it not be appropriate to pay a tribute to the work they have done in ensuring supplies from some of the least-developed countries to consumers in this country of commodities such as copper?
  It is also pertinent to refer to Rio Tinto-Zinc's experience in Bougainville. That company went through the whole gamut of developing a large copper deposit and putting a lot of money into it, and then found that the conditions under which it was operating in the host country were dramatically changed just as the loans had been paid and the mines were reaching production. Rio Tinto-Zinc has a wide spectrum of experience upon which to call when advising the Government on schemes for the stabilisation of copper.
  Dr. Bray: I accept what the hon. Member has said, but there is more than one mining company. The staff of Rio Tinto-Zinc would be the first to say that they are not the only experts. Indeed, the company buys studies from the Commodities Research Unit. It is not self-evident that one should take as advisers the executives of one company. Other mining companies have contributed to the world economy. I am asking for a more critical attitude from the Government. The present system involves using the "old boy" network. There are other sources of advice available which the Government have not yet tapped.
  I have made that point in correspondence with Ministers. It was suggested that I might have discussions with officials. One of them assured me of his wide experience through having been in charge of the commodities division of the World Bank. I referred to a study which was done in the World Bank. That official did not even know of its existence although he was in charge of the commodities division. There is a lack of communication between the study and research that goes on and the actual making of policy.
  1258
  People do not do research just for the birds. They do it because they are concerned about seeking the best solution to the difficult problems that we face. But they are ignored by the people who are sent along by the British Government to the negotiating conferences. It is no wonder that we are floundering around in the dark.
  This is immediately relevant to our current situation because the Prime Minister is going to Washington this week. He will not get much change from President Carter by any softening of the IMF conditions. He should say to President Carter that the United States places great emphasis on energy policy, which is a major commodity problem, and the stabilisation of some commodities—admittedly temperate cereals, including wheat and peanuts—but that there are also the problems of tropical and mineral products. The Prime Minister might ask about those. He should say that both the United States and the United Kingdom face the underlying problem of the stabilisation of exchange rates and ask how that is to be tackled. If the Government were to pick up their skirts and get down to the job of discussing these problems in the light of the academic analysis that is widely canvassed, and if they made that the basis of policy, we should not be floundering as we are today wondering about where we should go.
  It has been suggested that if the new clause were passed some slight embarrassment would be caused to the Treasury. That is precisely the point. It would cause embarrassment if the Treasury were to maintain its present posture towards the use of research. That policy needs changing, and it is in the best interests not only of the Government but of the Treasury in particular to pay more attention to the underlying logic of the argument.
  4.45 p.m.
  Mr. Tim Renton: We should be grateful to the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Dr. Bray) for New Clause 2. Whenever I see the hon. Member I also see macro-economic models because I remember that in the long debate on the Industry Bill one of the few changes—perhaps the only one—made in the Bill was thanks to him. From the Gvernment Benches the hon. Member suggested that

  1259
  a macro-economic model should be produced by the Treasury each year and this was accepted. It was the only positive outcome of 140 hours of debate on the Industry Bill.
  When I read in New Clause 2 on coming into the Chamber today:
  "The Treasury shall lay before Parliament each year a report on the research work of the International Monetary Fund, on the application of the research to the Fund's operations, on the economic theories underlying those operations, and on the accumulation of evidence for and against those theories'."
  I assumed that the hon. Gentleman would tell us about the advantages of having a semi-public disputation each year between the monetarists and the non-monetarists, between Friedman and Galbraith. I welcome the idea and I thought that it would be a useful public debate to have. I was all set to support the new clause, which I shall still do. But I did not realise that the hon. Member would lead us into a discussion on the common fund—a matter in which both he and I have an interest.
  I shall make a few remarks in amplification of some of the hon. Members' comments about the common fund. It is particularly appropriate that we should be doing this today because a debate on the common fund opened in Geneva yesterday. Unfortunately, it broke up after 20 minutes because there was no agreement on who should be the chairman. Let us hope that that is not a presage of things to come.
  There was an interesting conference in the Grand Committee Room last week at which the Under-Secretary of State for Trade spoke on the subject of the common fund. The kernel of the speeches made—although we heard a great deal for and against the technicalities of the common fund—came when the gentleman from the Commonwealth Secretariat referred to a remark by William Simon, late of the American Treasury, at a World Bank meeting last autumn.
  Mr. Simon said words to the effect that the present world order system had served the world well for 25 years, so why should we change it. The gentleman from the Commonwealth Secretariat made it obvious that he was totally dissatisfied with that statement by William Simon. He and others in the Group of 77 wished
  1260
  to change the world order system because they wanted to transfer power and resources from the industrialised world to the less developed countries.
  In all our discussions about the common fund, it is clear that we are entering the stage when we shall have to face the determination of the less developed countries to have more power, more wealth and more of the world's resources transferred to them. The mechanics of how that is done is less important than the end in itself. We could get bogged down in discussions about the mechanics when we should in fact be concentrating on the aim and on the ends that the Group of 77 wish to achieve.
  That said, I very much agree with the remarks made by the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw about the difficulties of the common fund and the difficulties of operating it. I do not believe—perhaps the Minister will refer to this matter—that there is any intention that present quotas within the IMF should be used for financing buffer stocks. It surely is the underlying theme that it is a new financial facility that must be made available, initially of $3 billion and, in the end, up to $6 billion. The purpose of this lies not only in financing buffer stocks, but in using the common fund as a means for arranging the mutual financing of stocks between individual commodities rather than creating 18 separate individual commodity agreements.
  However, the difficulty here lies in the fact that, of the 18 commodities suggested, only five are suitable for buffer stock purposes, Most of the others, if not all, would be damaged in storage, are unsuitable for transport to a central storage point, or would wither away if stored in the country of production. I do not believe, therefore, that the basic concept of buffer stocks being financed through the common fund has been thought through.
  In the particular commodity of copper—and here I must declare an interest as a member of the London Metal Exchange and a director of a mining finance company—it is a fact that the CIPEC countries have sought means of achieving a copper commodity stabilisation scheme for so many years now that I forget how man)—18 or 20. They have met continuously, notably in Paris. They have never reached agreement. Why? It is

  1261
  because the fundamental differences between the South American members of CIPEC, Peru and Chile, and the African members, Zambia and Zaire, are very great indeed. They wish to achieve different objectives through CIPEC. That is quite apart from the historic dislike and the different national characteristics that exist between the South American countries and the African countries.
  Copper is one of the five commodities that I have mentioned that could be easily stocked. It has relatively few prodcuers. Very little copper is reclaimed from scrap, so the recycling problems of operating a buffer stock where much of one's material comes from scrap do not exist. Nonetheless, it has proved impossible over the years to arrange even one commodity stabilisation scheme, for copper alone.
  Then there is the question of cost. It is said or copper alone that the cost would be about £600 million. We must stand back and ask ourselves whether this is the best way of using £600 million of international money.
  I know that it is commonly said that we must not think of the common fund in aid terms. However, the fact is that at the end of the day, if commodity stabilisation agreements lead to higher prices—which I believe they do—it is the less developed countries which are producers of those commodities which will benefit most, and thus there is an aid element in this. If there is an aid element, we must pause and consider whether this is the best way to use £600 million that one wants to pass on, in any shape or form, to the less developed countries.
  Dr. Bray: The hon. Gentleman is powerfully reinforcing the point that I tried to get across, namely, that the variety of instruments that have to be used in any commodity stabilisation scheme, incorporating not only the buffer stock but also policy towards production policy—if one does not talk of production control—and regulation of exports, and the regulation of investment, must go into the overall design concept of the scheme. The conflict of objectives can be clearly formulated only in the light of an optimal commodity stabilisation scheme. That has never been done in copper, despite all the negotiations within CIPEC. Finally, we do not know whether the cost is £600 million or a great deal more,
  1262
  or, taking into account its rôle within the common fund, possibly even less, because we need to look at how it interacts with other commodities and the overall timing of the trade cycle.
  Mr. Renton: As the hon. Gentleman will know, a great deal of work has been done on the cost of financing copper stock. More study has been done on this single commodity—perhaps I say that because I know this commodity better than soft commodities—by, for example, economists of the Institute for International Studies at Sussex University than on any other. Therefore, we are further down the road in exploring the financing cost of copper stock than perhaps that of any other commodity. Yet, as the hon. Gentleman said, no one has been able to come up with a firm answer on the cost. It is estimated that it would be £600 million. We cannot be sure.
  That is a pretty strong argument for not going with our eyes closed into a common fund. If we do not know the cost for one commodity, what will be the cost for 18?
  Having been very much a bear of the common fund up to now, I must repeat what I have said previously. I believe that in the present negotiations this is a matter that we should look at with open eyes, and we should not have a totally closed mind about it. No other scheme has been put forward. Whatever the imperfections or unexplained aspects of the common fund, no other scheme that seems to have any chance of unifying the interests of the northern and southern hemispheres has been brought forward.
  I hope, however—and here I support the view of the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wishaw—that British Ministers who will be taking part in these negotiations are very much better briefed than those at UNCTAD IV in Nairobi last year, and that they have not gone there with totally closed minds.
  None of us can know what will be the attitude of President Carter and his Administration to this subject. I suspect that it will be very different from that of President Ford's Administration. That is another reason why we should not yet have made up our minds as to how in the end we wish to play the situation. I hope that we are keeping an open mind.

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  Above all, I hope that Ministers are properly briefed.
  Mr. Ian Stewart: I hope that you will not be disappointed, Mr. Deputy Speaker, if I refer to New Clause 2. In passing, however, I should like to say that I found the discussion about UNCTAD and the common fund of great interest, although I did not come here briefed to take part. Perhaps I may be permitted a personal comment on it nevertheless as we seem to have turned our attention it it.
  I think that there is a greater need for moves to be made, by whatever means, towards price stabilisation in the soft commodities than has been accepted by the industrial countries in recent years. I am not at all sure whether separate commodity agreements are really a satisfactory alternative to a common fund. However, I do not think that it would be very helpful to pursue that, except to say that I welcome the UNCTAD discussions that are now taking place and I hope that they will lead to more practical suggestions than the rather long-drawn-out theoretical approach which this problem has received.
  The new clause appears to suggest that we should place a requirement on the Treasury to provide information which it would not of itself have at hand but which it would have to obtain from the IMF. I do not know what the 1MF's reaction would be if we were to pass the new clause and then the Treasury would be bound to produce each year a report on research work on economic theories and how they relate to the operations of the IMF.
  It would be useful, and to that extent it is helpful that we have the opportunity to discuss it in this debate. It might even be a great deal more useful were the Treasury to indicate some of its own research and ideas on this subject. It would be to the enlightenment of all of us if we knew what research it was conducting into the relevance of its own policies and advice as to the conduct of economic affairs in this country. However, the new clause proposes that we should require the Treasury to provide information for which it would have to rely on the IMF. Therefore, to that extent the hon. Member for Motherwell and Wirhaw (Dr. Bray) knows that this
  1264
  is a theoretical new clause for the purpose of this discussion.
  5.0 p.m.
  The hon. Gentleman said he felt that, if the economic theories underlying some of the IMF's research work were applied to the IMF's policies on lending, we would not have the present arrangements for domestic credit expansion. The hon. Gentleman suggested that this was not a suitable instrument for accompanying the credit and financial facilities which the IMF would provide to countries in difficulty. Also, he suggested that this did not necessarily provide the best or even a suitable means of enabling countries to make the right economic recovery.
  I agree with the hon. Gentleman up to that point, but I cannot go further with the assumption behind those suggestions because the IMF does not control our economic policy. I hope that it never will. However incompetent or irresponsible national Governments may be, they should ultimately, within a framework, have discretion on how they operate the economy of the countries for which they are responsible.
  The only reason why any country has to resort to the IMF and has to satisfy exacting conditions about DCE is if, up to that point, it has mismanaged its financial affairs in such a way as to give rise to a particular crisis. That crisis is usually a balance of payments crisis which leads to and is almost inevitably part of a foreign exchange crisis. Therefore, the country in question needs foreign exchange facilities to get itself out of a critical position. In those circumstances, it is not unreasonable that the IMF, in providing those foreign exchange facilities, should impose conditions which may be counter-productive in other areas of economic development but which will at least restore credit in the area where the immediate crisis is situated, which is the current account on the balance of payments and on the foreign exchange market. It may be that over the years DCE restrictions will rot achieve that result.
  Dr. Bray: Does the hon. Gentleman mean current account on the balance of payments or capital account, taking into account leads and lags? All that money supply operates on in the short term are

  1265
  leads and lags, which are in the capital account.
  Mr. Stewart: I said and meant current account. Usually, in my experience, movements on capital account respond more than anything to movements on current account. It is not usually difficult for a country with a sound current account balance to obtain proper funding for any temporary deficit on capital account. The factor at which the IMF must continue to look is the ability of a country to pay its way on its trading account and to sustain its currency at a reasonable level in world markets.
  I do not think that I have in any way convinced the hon. Gentleman. However, I believe that the IMF should not get away from its fundamental objective of providing financial facilities for dealing with specific crises which drive countries and their Governments into its hands.
  We have been driven into the IMF's hands because we have a persistent deficit on our balance of payments current account, which has encouraged leads and lags in sterling and which has been exacerbated by capital account movements. That has brought about a situation in our exchange rate over the past year which could not be corrected unless some supporting financial facility were provided by the IMF. It does not strike me as strange or improper that the conditions imposed by the provider of that facility should be designed to correct that defect in our economic performance.
  It may be that over the years the DCE formula will not achieve that result. On the whole, experience in industrial countries has shown that it is a blunt but effective weapon. Therefore the IMF is right to continue to impose conditions which will solve the problems which it was designed to meet.
  Mr. Robert Sheldon: My hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Dr. Bray) again referred to the level of the research undertaken and the need to question the research carried out by a number of organisations and institutions which impinge upon Government agencies. My hon. Friend's record in the examination of these matters is probably unparalleled in the House. That is the tribute that we must pay to him for bringing these matters to our attention.
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  In the new clause my hon. Friend seeks to repeat the arguments, although I notice the change and widening of those arguments, which he used in Committee. My hon. Friend pointed to the relationship between the staff papers of 20 years ago relating to domestic credit expansion and the examination of the matter by Mr. Polak in one of those seminal staff papers. My hon. Friend pointed out that if those papers are to have any influence on action by the IMF, clearly they need to be examined with great care. So far, I am sure that the whole House will he in agreement with my hon. Friend. The difficulty comes in distinguishing the theories in those research documents from those which may be taken over and, to some extent, implemented by Government agencies and by the IMF.
  I am sure that few will be better aware that my hon. Friend of the change which takes place when any document of that kind is translated into action. If one tries to see the reasoning behind the decisions arrived at by the Government, it is sometimes difficult to be sure just which theory they may be following because of the interaction between the various contending views which may originally have made their debut in a particular staff paper.
  If my hon. Friend looks at the occasional papers which the Government Economic Service provides, or even those contributions made by the National Institute and other bodies, he will see that it is difficult for the Government to undertake to examine these various theoretical papers without at the same time getting into difficulties.
  It is not easy to deal with the transition from theory to practice. I think that both my hon. Friend and the House will accept the advantage which we have seen in recent years of the Government taking note of the wide interchange of views which now takes place compared with what was available in the early 1950s. I suggest that it would be as hard for the Government to comment on the research work of the IMF, of which they are a member, as it would be for them to comment on the research work of the National Institute or on the occasional papers of the Government Economic Service. OF course, these are studied; lessons are drawn from them. But that is different from the Government engaging in direct

  1267
  controversy of a kind which would be a result of accepting the new clause.
  Mr. Nigel Lawson: Will not the Financial Secretary agree that there is this difference between the IMF and, say, the National Institute, that the IMF has agreed certain courses of action, certain criteria, which the British economy should follow, and which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has accepted? Presumably the IMF measures were based on a theory which the Chancellor accepts, because otherwise he would not have accepted the IMF remedies. Will the Financial Secretary confirm that the Government accept the IMF theories, for otherwise they would not have accepted the domestic credit expansion constraints and other measures? All that is being asked is that the Government should spell out the theories which lie behind their policies.
  Mr. Sheldon: I had the advantage of reading through that paper by Polak a number of years ago and I addressed the House on one occasion—I think the attendance was about as thin as that which we have today—when I questioned the thinking behind it in a way which is not dissimilar to that which my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell and Wishaw has in mind.
  We are seeing not the implementation of the theory of Mr. Polak, as he enunciated it in 1957, but the IMF coming to an arrangement and specifying the ways in which repayment of those funds ought to be undertaken on the basis of a number of different factors, of which this one is hard to assess. It is hard to be able to determine the influence of any of the economists that lie behind a decision of this kind. I think that the main point of my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell and Wishaw was the need for an active and wide debate, and he has contributed largely to bringing this about.
  The hon. Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Renton) asked about the position of buffer stocks and dealt with this in some detail, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell and Wishaw. Clearly, none of us expected that this would be the main part of the debate, but I think that I can usefully inform the House of some of the problems which we see in this
  1268
  connection. Perhaps I might belatedly reply to my hon. Friend's question about the buffer stocks facility, because he was a little concerned that, if interpreted correctly, it might indicate unlimited credit for developing countries. Although he might be glad to see this, he understood that this clearly was not the position, so there was something wrong and some misunderstanding. Perhaps I can help to clear it up.
  There used to be a limit on the quotas of kind that my hon. Friend knows and that have been removed. The position now is that the maximum drawing on the buffer stock facility is 50 per cent. of the quota, and there is, of course, the ability to make use of other drawing rights, such as credit tranches. The buffer stock discussions which are taking place at present are complicated by the fact that there are a number of problems of which we have seen echoes in the problems facing the European Community in its dealings with some of the stocks it has acquired in ever-increasing quantities. There are problems of perish-ability and the limited numbers of products which can be stocked.
  There is the question of the intervention points, of surpluses, and the need, fundamental in all these matters, to avoid what might become, rather than a stabilising force, a destabilising force, as excessive stocks might be built up. I mention this merely to show some of the complexities that need to be discussed, because we are dealing with a much larger number of countries than there are in the Community, and the problems there have by no means been solved.
  Perhaps I might deal finally with the position of the Treasury's own research work. I have mentioned that the Treasury undertakes a certain amount of its own research, but it also makes use of other bodies. Debates of this kind, and of the kind we had in Committee, help in the examination and questioning of some of the relationships involved in these matters. I think that we are now at a point where it is difficult to obtain the kind of relationship between the various variables which we used to take more for granted. The problem today is the control of the economy when there are large deficits year after year. They make the control of the economy much more difficult, because we can less readily

  1269
  operate surpluses and deficits, and through them demand management, in a way that used to be possible.
  The debate continues here. I look forward to hearing more results arising from the activities of universities, the research bodies and so on, which will contribute to our understanding of these major problems.
  5.15 p.m.
  Dr. Bray: I wish to reply briefly to one or two points made by my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary and other hon. Members.
  I entirely accept what my hon. Friend said about the complexity of the transition from theoretical argument to practicality. He himself quoted Keynes about being practical men and defunct economats. I am sure that he would agree that the more we can do to clarify the link between whatever theoretical concepts we may have and the making of policy, the happpier will be our position.
  The hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson) is right in saying that implicitly, by accepting the framework of our IMF conditions, the Government are basically following their concept of how the economy works. The hon. Member for Hitchin (Mr. Stewart) said that he wanted to contain the rôle of the IMF, but to do that within one particular framework of economic theory would extend the rôle of the IMF unnecessarily and unwittingly into all sorts of areas of public and economic policy which it does not need to interfere at all.
  My hon. Friend referred to the complexities of considerations which had to be taken into account in the design of commodity stabilisation schemes. They are precisely the complexities which can be related to each other in a policy optimisation study and in no other way. He referred to developments in our national economic policy, through the publication of Treasury forecasts and access to the Treasury model. I should be straying out of order if I went into that. But this illustrates the hazards of keeping things under wraps.
  A committee of able academics which advises the Treasury has been working for a year on developments to the model, but the work is being kept secret by the Treasury despite the academics' wish that
  1270
  it be made public and the advice published with reference to tests on the Treasury model. The Treasury is making unnecessary difficulties for itself by preserving this secretive attitude at a time when Parliament has asked it to be more open.
  Tomorrow there will be a meeting of the users of the Treasury model at which I imagine there will be interesting requests to the Government on their management of this facility. It is a continuing story and there will be further opportunities to debate this and other matters. I appreciate the care taken by my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary and his interest in these matters. I hope that he will continue to exert pressure in a constructive direction.
  Question put and negatived:

Clause 4

  AMENDMENTS OF EXPORT GUARANTEE Act 1975
  Mr. Hordern: I beg to move Amendment No. 2, in page 3, line 10, leave out 'and' and insert:
  (c) to fix a limit on the commitments entered into by ECGD with those countries described in its annual accounts as "centrally controlled economies," and '.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this amendment we may take the following
  amendments: No. 4, in Schedule 1, page 6, line 27, at end insert:
  'of which no more than 10 per cent. shall be with those countries described in the annual accounts of ECGD as centrally controlled economies'.
  No. 5, in Schedule 1, page 6, line 38, at end insert:
  'of which no more than 10 per cent. shall be with those countries described in the annual accounts of ECGD as centrally controlled economies'.
  No. 7, in Schedule 1, page 6, line 43, at end insert:
  'of which no more than 10 per cent. shall be with those countries described in the annual accounts of ECGD as centrally controlled economies'.
  No. 8, in Schedule 1, page 7, line 4, at end insert:
  'of which no more than 10 per cent. shall be with those countries described in the annual accounts of ECGD as centrally controlled economies'.
  Mr. Hordern: Here we are suggesting that the "centrally controlled economies" should be restricted in the amount of ECGD support they obtain to 10 per cent. of all ECGD loans. The extent of ECGD credit extended to the Comecon countries and the centrally controlled economies has risen quite fast in recent years. Two years ago it was 10·3 per cent., in 1975 it was 11·4 per cent., and last year it reached 12·1 per cent., according to the ECGD report. It appears to be a proportion which is rising significantly.
  Before we allow the new credits to be given under the Bill, we should ask ourselves whether we are happy about the trend that that proportion shows. For example, the credits that we now give to the centrally controlled economics are now greater in proportion than the amount of credit we extend to the rest of Western Europe, and greater than the credit we extend to North America. The credit that we extend to the centrally directed economies amounts to 43 per cent. of the total volume of exports from this country supported by ECGD credits. The proportion of the volume of exports supported by the ECGD is greater to the centrally directed economies than it is to the EEC and greater than to North America. While we give considerable support to our trade with the centrally directed economies, we get nothing back from their side. They are not extending credits to us. In all probability the position with other European countries or North America would not be the same.
  It is right to ask whether the centrally directed economies are now such good risks. I understand that the hard currency debt of the USSR now amounts to 14 billion dollars. It could be said that that is not huge in relation to the USSR's total assets, although its indebtedness is greater even than that of this country, which takes some doing. The Soviet Union has not been in surplus with the West since the 1960s. It looks as though there will be a net deficit on its balance of payments for last year of about $3·5 billion, These are large sums. The debt servicing ratio in Russia now amounts to 21 per cent., which is a significant figure.
  Russia is by no means the country with the largest proportion of debt with the West of all the Comecon countries. Poland, for example, is in an even worse
  1272
  position. I understand that Western credits extended to Poland now amount to about $9 billion, and that Poland's debt service ratio is even higher than the Soviet Union's, at about 25 per cent. We have a picture of a deteriorating trade position in the centrally controlled economies, and it is right to ask whether we are wise to extend such large credits towards those economies rather than to the rest of the world, including the developing countries.
  Apart from these export credits, what are we to make of the separate credit that the right hon. Member for Huyton (Sir H. Wilson) arranged on his last visit to Moscow? Why should we be subsidising the Russians in that way? It will be interesting to hear the Minister's reply. He told us in Committee that it was the Government's objective to switch as much as possible of the financing of the ECGD from sterling to dollars. He felt confident that a good deal of our trade would be switched in that way, and I hope that he is right. It is difficult to know, because we do not have much direct experience, but the hon. Gentleman knows—because I have shown him the letter concerned and sent it to the Treasury—that at least one company is finding great difficulty in trading with the Russians in dollars. So far the Russians have refused to negotiate on any terms other than sterling. This matter lies at the root of the Bill, certainly the export credit side of it.
  The whole idea of the export credit scheme is to save public expenditure by switching the financing of ECGD from sterling to dollars, but the Russians, who are getting an increasing part of our ECGD business, are refusing to trade in anything other than sterling. The Minister, who knows this is true, should tell us what our companies will have to do if they want to use the big line of credit which was negotiated by the right hon. Member for Huyton and of which the hon. Gentleman has boasted so much himself. How will they be able to trade if the Russians will not deal in dollars, and if they are to deal in sterling what will happen to the increase in the public sector debt, which will be the inevitable result?
  I understand that the rate of interest offered to the Russians under the credit is 7 per cent. We had quite an amusing time in Committee discussing with the

  1273
  Minister what the rate was. He said that he was not prepared to disclose it, that it was all very confidential, but we now know that it is 7 per cent. I also understand that part of this line of credit has been drawn at 7 per cent. and deposited in London at 14 per cent.
  The Minister must come clean about this and make a clear statement. Though I find it very difficult to believe, this is what I have been told. It is one thing to give the Russians generous credit to buy our goods. It is another thing to give them a present, a sort of unrequited overseas aid of large sums of money. This is a very important matter. We want to know whether a penny of the money has been drawn without being used to buy British goods. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be able to deny what I have been told.
  We do not know how long the Russian credit lasts. It may be for as long as seven years. If that is so, and if the rate of interest is 7 per cent., we are effectively selling the Russians our goods at half price. I do not know how wise that is. I believe that there are many other countries to which we could give generous terms, although I am personally against such concessions of any kind. I believe that we should trade in proper terms and without large subsidies on every side.
  The COMECON countries largely depend on the Euro-currency market. There are considerable strains within those countries' economies, and it seems to me extraordinary that we should deliberately lighten the task of the Soviet Union and the other COMECON countries by offering them such generous rates of interest, both through ECGD and the line of credit negotiated by the right hon. Member for Huyton. The Minister told us in Committee that it was difficult to draw a distinction between aid to the developing countries and to the centrally directed economies. The fact is that the centrally directed economies, notably Russia, are spending a great deal of money on increasing their armaments. The developing countries are doing no such thing and even if they were they would be no particular danger to us.
  5.30 p.m.
  Therefore, we are giving substantial sums, selling goods at half price, to the
  1274
  Russians, while they are increasing their expenditure on armaments every year. Of course we are not the only country that does this—many other Western countries extend aid to the Russians—but we should have a sensible initiative. Why do we not get together with other Western countries, perhaps within OECD, and come up with a sensible policy on trade with Russia? What can be the point of giving the Russians generous terms of trade from which they can benefit directly by increasing their arms?
  Surely it would be better to frame a common policy of trade with the centrally directed economies, so that they trade with us without any advantage. Such a policy would mean that the Russians and the other Communist countries had to think carefully about their future policy. It is likely that they would have to reduce their overall level of defence expenditure and increase their expenditure on other products.
  Mr. Cranley Onslow: Might it not also have the effect of obliging the Russians to reduce their expenditure on maintaining a police State? While we complain about the lack of liberties enjoyed by Russian citizens within their own borders, are we not in this area effectively subsidising the kind of State terrorism which is maintained in Moscow?
  Mr. Hordern: My hon. Friend makes a valuable point. It is true that the centrally controlled economies are under great strain at present. Certainly the satellite countries are. It is becoming increasingly clear that the Russians are insisting that those countries become more and more dependent on the Russian economy. If the Russian economy—as is the case—looks as if it will be consistently in debt with the West, I see no prima facie case for the West to help it out.
  It would be much more to the point if we got together with our Western allies and other countries with a common interest in these matters so that the Russians and the other centrally directed economies then had to look carefully at their policy and possibly reduce their defence expenditure. That seems a positive way of getting a reduction in their arms spending, and this group of amendments would help to secure that objective.

  1275
  At the very least we should be careful about continuing to give ever-increasing credits to Iron Curtain countries. We know where their extra expenditure is going—not on peaceful trade but on armaments. The purpose of that spending is to make life much more difficult for us in the West, and I see no reason why we should help the process.
  Mr. Nicholas Ridley: I agree with what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Horsham and Crawley (Mr. Hordern) and wish only to amplify it a little.
  When I was in the position that the Minister now holds, in what was then the Department of Trade and Industry, I was sent to Moscow to negotiate some great deal with the Russians, which so far as I can remember involved our supplying the plant for a large factory, for which we were going to pay with ECGD credits on impossibly soft terms and for which the Russians intended to pay with tomatoes over a period of years, plus some of the factory's products.
  I tried to protest about the deal but I was told that it was marvellous business. I was astonished to discover that the Russian Minister of Trade felt that he was getting the worst of the bargain. In fact, he abused me. The meeting had to be called off because cordial relations no longer obtained. I was hoping to be able to catch the next aeroplane back to London, having reported success, in my terms, or failure, in the terms of my brief. But I was hauled back. A humble apology came from the Russian Minister, and I think that the deal was eventually signed.
  I remember another such visit that I made to Czechoslovakia. There I managed to divert my salesmanship activities into a discussion of industrial relations in the factory that I visited. I was amazed to find that they had no strikes and that there had been no industrial relations problems of any sort. I probed and said that perhaps I could meet the unions. There was an embarrassed silence. Finally I was told that, since the trade unions were armed, perhaps it would not be a good idea for me to meet them because I might get the wrong impression—or the right impression, whichever way one looks at it.
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  Why do we go on with these deals, and why are they shrouded in secrecy? How much has been drawn in credits by the Russians and the satellites, and how much of what I might call the special offer of the right hon. Member for Huyton (Sir H. Wilson) has been taken up? I have asked ECGD for these figures, but it says that it is not the custom to publish details of transactions with individual countries. Why not? I thought that we now had open government and that we believed that it was right for us to know everything that the Government did.
  The Minister owes us at least an explanation of exactly how much of our money has been lent or pledged to the satellite countries and to Russia in the way that my hon. Friend described. I hope he will also confirm that we are lending at 7 per cent. That is the figure that one hears on all sides, and I am sure that it is true. Certainly the Government should confirm that that is the figure of these long-term credits to the Communist bloc.
  I have frequently heard Ministers say that British industry desperately needs investment and that the private City markets have let it down by not providing adequate long-term capital. I do not believe that that is true, but what sort of a Government are they who are prepared to lend £1,200 million to Russia at 7 per cent. but are not prepared to make such terms available for their own home industry, which instead they castigate for not investing?
  If we could provide credits at 7 per cent. for British industry, hundreds of small and medium-size businesses could get off the ground and grow. Hundreds of large firms could expand. It would indeed be one of the keys to unlock the industrial deadlock in this country. But no—it has to go to Russia.
  There are several reasons why this is not only economically damaging but also bad for British industry. In the deal in which I was involved, part of the contract was that the English manufacturers of the plant would take a proportion of the product—in this case, I think, tractors. So the credit and the capital goes abroad, in return for which we get a large number of tractors dumped

  1277
  on the market, thus reducing the opportunities for British workers to make tractors and to remain employed. I do not know what the results of that deal were, but the very concept is obviously counter-productive to our own economic interests.
  I have with me a booklet published by the Institute for the Study of Conflict, which goes into what each of the varying countries has recently afforded in credit to the Communist bloc. It concludes that in 1975 the Soviet indebtedness to the West had reached $11,000 million, of which our share was probably about $2,000 million at that time. Since then it has grown a great deal. The effect is to remove both from this country and from other Western countries capital which could be made available for more fruitful purposes. It gives to the Russians technology which for some extraordinary reason they are totally incapable of inventing for themselves. Many of the things they buy from us are bought in order to take them to pieces to see how they are made.
  One of the extraordinary things is that the centrally-controlled and immensely disciplined economy which is the USSR has always had to buy its technology, mainly from the Americans but in many cases from us. I wonder whether we should go on helping them and financing them in this way. There is the example of an American space suit which was sold to the Russians for $180,000 although it had taken over $20 million in research and other costs to develop. This crazy policy of giving them everything we can as cheap as possible must surely be wrong.
  The argument of my hon. Friend the Member for Horsham and Crawley that this helps the Russians to build up their military potential is a strong one with which I would agree. Certainly the cheap loans, the manufacturing capacity and the ability to export the products through the contract to buy is highly beneficial to the Russian economy and highly inimical to our interests. My hon. Friend was quite right when he said that it allows the Russians to develop their war potential against us and is of considerable aid and comfort to them.
  It seems odd that successive British Governments have operated this policy.
  1278
  We should now like to know the full figures and the full facts. They should be brought out for public examination. I also find it odd that none of the Labour supporters of this policy have come today to cheer. I thought that we would be a small group on the Opposition Benches pressing this unpopular point of view upon the serried ranks opposite who believed that this was the right thing to do. Imagine, for instance, if a Conservative Government were to give undisclosed sums of credit at 7 per cent. to the Greek colonels, or perhaps to Ian Smith or to whatever bogy man is at present uppermost in Labour mythology. But when it comes to giving aid to the Russians, it is assumed that this is perfectly right and proper.
  The Minister will probably use the argument that this is the only way we can get the business. I have heard that argument often. It is a fallacious argument, because there comes a time when it is not worth getting the business. If some mug is prepared to offer long-term credit at cheap rates of interest to take part of the product of the factory that he is financing, that mug had better be given the job and pay the price of buying the work.
  In our parlous state, borrowing heavily from the IMF and short of surplus foreign exchange, it cannot be right that we should buy work under the sort of terms that my hon. Friend has outlined. There are many other ways for us to earn our living rather than giving away, at advantageous terms, that which has been made in this country and which has cost us to import the raw materials to make.
  5.45 p.m.
  I say to the Government in all sincerity that this is an opportunity for them to come clean about the facts. Perhaps the facts stated by my hon. Friend and myself are wrong. If the Minister wants the House to accept the policy followed by the right hon. Member for Huyton and by successive Governments before that of making these cheap loans to the Russians, we should have a full statement and all the information that the Department of Trade can give us. Perhaps independent business advisers should be asked to assess whether this is in the commercial interests

  1279
  of the United Kingdom. I am certain that the answer would be "No".
  I speak as one who has been engaged in trying to negotiate some of it. I can only tell the House that my conclusion, from that particular poignant and personal experience, was that what we were doing was wholly in the commercial interests of the Russians and that it was only the innate conservatism of the policy that we inherited which allowed it to be pursued. I hope that the Government will take this opportunity to agree that it has been a mistake.
  Mr. Peter Blaker: I am delighted to support my hon. Friends. A month ago I had a talk, which lasted a couple of hours, with the very distinguished Russian dissident recently exiled from the Soviet Union, Andrei Amalrik. I asked him what advice he would give us about our policies towards the Soviet Union. He replied " The first thing is to look at your policies for extending credit and selling technology to the Soviet Union. It looks to me, and to a lot of my friends, as if you are absolutely mad. You should realise that only if you use the weapons available to you in the economic sphere can you put pressure on the Soviet Union to liberalise its internal repressive régime. The Soviet Union is a command economy which involves the loss of liberty. Only when we force it to liberalise that economy can it become more efficient, and only if it is liberalised will there be more freedom for the individual."
  He regarded our policies as absolutely mad. If he had heard what my hon. Friend the Member for Horsham and Crawley (Mr. Hordern) said about the Russians having drawn part of their credit at 7 per cent. and deposited it back here at 14 per cent., he would have thought we were even madder still. I find it astonishing that successive Prime Ministers—the right hon. Member for Huyton (Sir H. Wilson) and later the present Prime Minister—have pressed this £950 million credit on the Russians. There is no doubt that that is what they have done.
  In March last year, when Mr. Gromyko was in this country, a statement was issued saying that the then Prime Minister had urged him to see that his
  1280
  Government took up the full £950 million. Just before last Christmas a report appeared in the Press that the present Prime Minister had urged the Russian Ambassador that his Government should make greater efforts to take up this amount of credit. That seems quite extraordinary when the balance of advantage is so clearly in favour of the Russians.
  I hope that when replying the Minister will tell us more details about the terms. My hon. Friend said that the rate of interest charged is 7 per cent. That recently appeared in the Press. We know that it cannot be more than 8 per cent. because it was stated by the Secretary of State for Trade in a Written Answer that
  "The terms and conditions on which support is made available for exports to the COMECON countries are broadly competitive with those available from our major competitors".—[Official Report, 12th July 1976; Vol. 915, c. 48.]
  The White Paper Command 5924, issued in February 1975, after the then Prime Minister had come back from Moscow, said that it was agreed that the United Kingdom would make every effort to provide these credits on the most favourable terms possible. That means in practice that it must be between 7 per cent. and 8 per cent. I should like confirmation of that from the Minister. I should also like to know from him whether it is in fact 7 per cent.
  My hon. Friends and I are drawing a distinction between the centrally-controlled economies, meaning, for my purposes, the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, and those of the rest of the world. This is a valid distinction to draw. After all, the object of the Soviet Union, which it repeats weekly, is to destroy us, our economy and our way of life. Therefore, we are entitled to make sure that we do not help the Soviet Union to do this.
  I believe that this sort of credit is of great assistance to the Soviet Union in its objectives. It is a good bargain for Russia, for a number of reasons. The first is that Russia is now a deficit country. My hon. Friends have quoted figures. My hon. Friend the Member for Horsham and Crawley quoted the figure of a hard currency accumulated debt of $14 billion at present by the Soviet Union.
  The second reason why it is a good bargain for Russia is that Russia has a

  1281
  very inefficient economy. I am told that, as of April last year, the average industrial wage in the Soviet Union, making the conversion at the official rouble rate, was £12·50 a week, on top of which had to be added a social wage of £2·60 a week, which is a very small social wage compared with our own.
  Mr. Ridley: Does that arise under a social contract?
  Mr. Blaker: I do not think that there are many contracts between the Government of the Soviet Union and the rest of the community there.
  Mr. Ridley: There are not here, either.
  Mr. Blaker: We saw a couple of years ago the grain disaster in the Soviet Union when the grain harvest fell 70 million tons below target. It was about one-third down on the target. What is true of Soviet agriculture is true of Soviet industry as well.
  There are only a few sectors in which the Soviet Union is efficient. They are the military sector, the space programme and the winning of medals at the Olympic Games. They are efficient in the military sector because they are exposed to competition. Internally, they have a controlled economy and there is no competition. Hence the difference between the two sectors. In the space programme they have competition from the United States. The winning of Olympic gold medals is done for prestige purposes with the object of giving the rest of the world the impression that Russia is a wonderful place in which to live.
  If we export our technology to the Russians, we are helping them to get over this inefficiency. We are helping to compensate them—for example, with the Rolls-Royce deal for £100 million recently signed for compressor plans for the pipeline in the Soviet Union—for their inefficiency.
  Recently, I have been looking at a study made by the Stamford Research Institute in the United States, which is a highly respected body. It concerns the benefits to the Soviet Union of exports of technology from the West. The institute has made a calculation based on an economic model of the Soviet economy. Its conclusion is that in 1968 there was a sudden increase in exports of techno-
  1282
  logy from the West to the Soviet Union associated with the beginning of detente. That increase in exports continued over the next few years. In the five years between 1968 and 1973, what the institute described as "the detente effect" meant that Soviet industrial production increased by 33 per cent. as opposed to 28 per cent., which was the previous record. There we have a significant increase in Soviet industrial production.
  The institute estimates in the same study that the efficiency of installed machinery imported from the West is three to four times greater on average than that of Soviet-produced machinery, even after allowing for the additional costs of installation of imported machinery.
  There has been another interesting study by Philip Hanson, of the University of Birmingham, of the manufacture of mineral fertilisers in the Soviet Union. He shows that, over the period from 1960 to 1975, $2 billion worth of Western equipment and associated know-how imported into the Soviet Union was producing, by the mid–1970s, $4 billion worth of output per year. That is a very high rate of return on imported Western machinery. Not only are we improving the efficiency of that very creaky Soviet industry; we are also helping the Soviet Union to give the impression abroad of efficiency which is so appealing to undergraduates in Asia, Africa and this country as well.
  Conversely, this bargain is bad for us, for the reason that my hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) mentioned. We are lending to the Soviet Union at 7 per cent. when our own manufacturers have to borrow at 14 per cent. or 15 per cent. It is bad for us because it enables the Soviet Union to build up a base from which to compete, very often at unfair prices, with our own industry.
  I was interested to learn that at a NATO meeting in December the then Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whose death I regret greatly, pointed out that there was a great danger when the West transferred resources to the Soviet Union that not only would it enable the Soviet Union to carry out its objectives in the Third World but it would also enable the Russians to sell goods back to us at

  1283
  unfair prices. Looking at the White Paper issued in February 1975, we see that it provides expressly for buy-back deals in such sectors as polyester fibres and knitted outerwear. I can imagine what will be thought of that arrangement in Yorkshire when knitted outerwear starts to come back from the Soviet Union at unfair prices.
  The next reason why this is a bad bargain for us is the cost to the taxpayer resulting from the interest rate differential. My hon. Friend the Member for Horsham and Crawley said that he thought it might even amount to half the cost of the goods over the period of an average credit. I do not find that my sums produce such a very large figure. My own calculations, which I mentioned to the Under-Secretary in Committee on another occasion last year, is about £250 million. That is based on a simple calculation of an interest rate differential of 4·5 per cent. over a mean period of five and a half years. assuming that the average length of credit is nine years. The fact that I have arrived at a lower figure than my hon. Friend is possibly due to the fact that I am assuming that the rate of interest would be paid only on the reducing balance, and I am not sure that my hon. Friend makes the same assumption.
  I should like the Under-Secretary to come back to this. Last year he said in Committee that my figure of £250 million was wildly out of the target area and that the total cost to the taxpayer of the interest rate differential could not amount to anything like that. I wonder whether there was a misunderstanding. Did he imagine that I was talking about the figure per annum? I am not talking about that. I am talking about the total interest rate subsidy for the total £950 million over the total length of the credit. I do not see how it can be very much less than £200 million, if not £250 million.
  6.0 p.m.
  The other reason why this is a bad bargain for us is that it helps the Soviet Union put more into arms. That means that the Soviet Union becomes more dangerous to us and that we have to put more into arms as well. The Government's argument is that the business men like it. Of course they love it; they
  1284
  get taxpayers' money. But it is up to the Government to set out the terms in the national interest. The Government should say that they do not intend to spend taxpayers' money in this way.
  I have seen quotations from the Prime Minister which make it clear that he believes that trade prevents war and that it we have more trade with the Russians we are less likely to have war with them. That is nonsense. One has only to look at history to see that the opposite is very often true and that war occurs between nations which have a great deal of trade with each other. Examples of this are Germany and the rest of Europe in 1939, Japan and the United States before 1941, and England and Spain in the sixteenth century. Therefore, the Government's argument does not stand up.
  The Government also say that if we do not extend these credits to the Soviet Union other countries will do so. We must get together with our allies and friends to work out more sensible arrangements. The Russians are openly contemptuous of the inability of the capitalist world to regulate competition between its own members with the result that the Soviet Unon is the beneficiary.
  Last year in Standing Committee I quoted something from Lenin. I shall quote it again because it is a remarkable quotation. Lenin said in a memorandum to Chicherin, who was the commissar for external affairs in 1921:
  "They—
  that is, the capitalists—
  "will open up credits for us, which will serve us for the purpose of supporting Communist parties in other countries. They will supply us with the materials and technology which we lack and will restore our military industry, which we need for our future victorious attacks upon our suppliers. In other words, they will work hard in order to prepare their own suicide."
  That is what is happening. It is up to us to take the lead because this trend is more damaging to us because of our high interest rates. We should make it perfectly clear to the Russians that we will not be so stupid in the future and that we will stand up for ourselves.
  Mr. Peter Viggers: I hope that the House will accept that in making these remarks I am not being offensive or oppressive to the Russian people. I want to show respect and friendship to

  1285
  those people, but not to the regime directing them. I think that the attitude of my hon. Friends is right.
  When we talk about a subsidy to the Russian people, we should also consider the effect on the Soviet Union's banking interests. While we may be supporting Russian arms, we are also supporting the Russian banking industry and encouraging the Moscow Narodny Bank to build up its staff in London. It is worth noting that the last time a change was made in the staff of that bank was when Lord Home asked a large number of Russians to leave this country. One wonders to what extent the bank's needs have been built up at the expense of the British people.
  We are talking about a huge amount of money—an overall increase in the export credit guarantee buiness of 40 per cent. in 1976 compared with 26.6 per cent. in 1975. We are talking about limits of £40,000 million and £25,000 million in special drawing rights. That amount is astronomical and it deserves a packed Chamber to discuss it, not the thin attendance we have this afternoon, justifying Parkinson's law on the matter.
  I should like to quote from an article in the Financial Times of 18th February 1975. It said:
  "Export finance is a way of bribing goods into exports. It is a system of subsidising credit geared to exporting at the public expense, of inviting the customer to buy cheap money rather than to pay the going rate for the goods which meet his specifications for performance, delivery and price."
  We should bear that in mind before greatly increasing the growth of the export credit business. In fact, we should ponder on whether we should increase it all.
  That question was posed by the person who was responsible for running the Export Credits Guarantee Department and is now Chief Executive of the Stock Exchange, Mr. Robert Fell. I quote from a speech by Mr. Fell reported in the Financial Times:"
  Export credit has become the servant of industrial and political objectives, with the cost to the taxpayer and the country almost forgotten."
  He went on to say that he had found over the years two myths among British Ministers. He said:
  "The first is that there is a bonanza for British industry in Russia. The second is that
  1286
  there is a bonanza for British industry in Latin America. Some Ministers have been able to support both myths at the same time."
  He pointed out that the desire to give special terms to Russia had caused the "gentlemen's agreement" on export credit to falter at its most hopeful point He went on to say:
  "Export credit has reached a dangerous stage in the terms being offered, partly for the balance of payments of the donor country and partly from the point of view of the debt being assumed by the recipient country."
  We are entitled to ask why there should be this love affair between the Labour Government and East-West trade. Why should trade be given to Russia with love? The cost escalation cover is a straight subsidy from Government to exporter. We cannot continue to see export credit expand in this way, and we must look at ways of reducing it. Why should the Russians and the Eastern bloc countries be considered for the greatest-ever trade initiative that has been mounted in export credit? Why should we give support to the regimes of the Eastern bloc when there is such benefit from the difference between export credit terms of 7 and 8 per cent and a current borrowing rate of 15 per cent.? Why should the benefit of the interest differential go to the Russians and other Eastern bloc countries? There is a real need for disarmament of export credit.
  The countries to which we are referring here are those with centrally-planned economies—the Soviet Union, the German Democratic Republic, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, North Vietnam, Mongolia, China and North Korea. My hon. Friends have spoken particularly of the Soviet Union, but if we are to trade with these countries we should consider directing that trade towards Eastern bloc countries other than the Russians. Why direct trade towards a country that is the linchpin and controller of the whole Eastern bloc? What has Russia to offer us, and why should we support that country instead of Namibia, Chile, Bangladesh, India and Turkey? Why should the Russians receive special treatment?
  I support the amendments that have been put forward. I consider that £4,000 million, and £2,500 million in special drawing rights—that is 10 per cent. of the total limits of the ECGD—is quite

  1287
  sufficient, and I urge the House to accept the amendments.
  Mr. Tim Renton: I was most impressed by the powerful way in which my hon. Friend and neighbour the Member for Horsham and Crawley (Mr. Hordern) moved the amendment. Finance for Industry, the bank specifically formed in this country to provide medium-term finance for industry, issued its most recent loan stock at a rate of interest of 14 per cent. It is astonishing to compare that rate with the 7 per cent. which, we are told, the Russians are paying on this large credit which was pressed on them by the right hon. Member for Huyton (Sir H. Wilson). There could be no more immediate incentive for the recovery of industrial investment in this country than to be able to say to British manufacturers "We will now, through Finance for Industry and other institutions, make money available to you for industrial investment purposes at a rate of 7 per cent." The Russian interest rate must seem to any outsider an absurd paradox when domestic interest rates are so high. Finance for Industry must be lending to industry at a rate of 15 or 16 per cent. It is absurd that the interest rates to the domestic market should remain so high while at the same time we provide such a large loan on cheap credit to a major competitor—a nation that competes with us in the market for exports and which, as we have heard from my hon. Friends, is building up its military might in potential confrontation with ourselves.
  On the question of the interest rate on the credit line with Russia, I hope that the Minister will say what it is. He will remember that in this Chamber last week we took note of an ECGD document particularly on the guidelines for export credits in which the interest rate for rich countries—and I presume that Russia comes within that category—is stated to be a minimum of 7¾ per cent. for credits of between two and five years and 8 per cent. on credits of over five years.
  We took note of that document, and it is understood that Ministers of Finance in the EEC at their meeting on 14th March are likely to approve those guidelines. Can the Minister say whether the rate offered to Russia was below the
  1288
  guidelines to which we are now agreed, and, if so, whether it will be raised? It would be wrong at one and the same time to offer Russia credit at 7 per cent. and to say to no other industrialised nation that we shall make offers of export credit at below 7¾ per cent.
  My hon. Friend also touched on the question of bad debt exposure with the centrally-controlled economies. I believe that that is a most important point. In a centrally-controlled economy, if the system goes sour, all goes sour. That was the notable result recently in North Korea where too much credit had been accepted by the North Koreans. All the Western banks offering credit to North Korea found themselves in severe trouble in respect of North Korea. There had to be a moratorium in respect not only of debt repayment but also of interest. That is typical of a centrally-controlled economy, because if one pulls out one card from the pack the whole stack of cards will collapse.
  It would help the House to know what is the bad debt experience in ECGD in terms of the centrally-controlled economies and to be given the percentage of bad debts to liabilities and to know whether it is increasing or diminishing over the years.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Horsham and Crawley pointed to the extent to which the liabilities in centrally-controlled economies have grown as a percentage of ECGD totals from 10·3 per cent. of total liabilities in May 1974 to 12·4 per cent. in March 1976. This is clearly due to the fact that contracts with centrally-controlled economies tend to be credit contracts. We could expect this trend to continue to be upward unless there were a limit of 10 per cent. on total liabilities. I do not know whether that suggestion would be accepted by the Government. One can only hope that it will be.
  6.15 p.m.
  In this debate it is proper to ask whether the availability of guarantees from ECGD should be used as a means of exerting political pressure—and, indeed, of favouring certain export markets in preference to others. I think that this is a proper form of pressure to exert, because export credit has become a means above all of achieving political aims. We

  1289
  as free traders may regret this but it is a sad fact of life. Therefore, I support the amendment.
  I only regret that I cannot add to the amendment, because the amendments that I tabled with my hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) were not selected. Therefore, I cannot add to the centrally-controlled economies the markets of Uganda and Cambodia. Cambodia is suffering under a brutal Communist regime, and I include Uganda for reasons I need hardly state. Uganda is under the rule of an extraordinary man—the Flashman of the African world, somebody who shows all the bullying characteristics of Flashman in his early days but who displays none of the enduring characteristics that Flashman showed afterwards.
  There are very few means available to this country of exerting pressure on Uganda at the present time. I think we should say that the ECGD should guarantee no further export contracts to Uganda for a period of a year. It would be in order to use that sort of pressure as a means of obtaining political change in Uganda. Furthermore, it could be vital for the Government to do this because Uganda must now be a bad credit risk. I hope the Minister will suggest to ECGD that it should think about putting such a moratorium on the guarantees to Uganda at present.
  Mr. Christopher Brocklebank-Fowler: I shall not take up the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Renton) dealing with "Tom Brown's School Days".
  I rise briefly to support the amendment, which seeks to limit the credits available to centrally-controlled economies. I do not propose to elaborate on arguments which the House has already considered on this subject, but I wish to raise a matter that I suspect may be in the minds of the Minister and some of his colleagues who feel that the credits we supply to the Soviet Union and other centrally-controlled economies, bear some similarity to the credits we supply to the developing world. Indeed, it has been asked why we should be against credits on advantageous terms to the Soviets and their satellites and yet be in
  1290
  favour of credits to the developing world. The answer is simple. Most countries in the developing world are either non-committed and non-aligned or are members of the Commonwealth, and almost all of them pose no threat to Britain's national security.
  What worries many Opposition Members is the fact that the United Kingdom proposes to continue offering advantageous credits to people who are our potential enemies. In his technical and very able speech, my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers) mentioned the desirability of curtailing the cost escalation insurance scheme.
  I wish to draw attention to a document which has recently been circulated to some hon. Members by the British Electrical and Allied Manufacturers Association which touches precisely this point. We read, on page 4 of that document:
  "While your Association strongly supports the need for immediate action to restore incentives, profitability and industrial confidence in the United Kingdom, there must still he adequate recognition of the need to stimulate the United Kingdom export effort if British industries are to obtain a larger share of the world markets."
  The document continues:
  "Government support schemes, such as aid to exports, need to be continually reviewed,"
  the Association will be glad that we are taking that line today—
  "but also they should be minded to match the degree of aid provided by the Governments of competing nations."
  The Association acknowledges that some improvements have been made to a number of ECGD guarantee schemes but suggests that further changes are necessary to provide a wider band of cover.
  It adds:
  "There is an acute need for streamlining and simplification of ECGD administrative processes."
  It says that the Government should give consideration to
  "a reduction in the minimum qualifying contract value for all demand band export and for buyer credit arrangements."
  It asserts baldly that the cost escalation insurance scheme should be retained and, where possible, improvements should be introduced. I wonder whether my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport would care to comment on that assertion of what policy should be.
  Mr. Viggers: This is not a conspiracy, but I was warned by my hon. Friend that he proposed to raise that point. I agree with my good friends on BEAMA—whom I know in my capacity as the link between the electronics industry and the Tory Party—that as long as inflation rages away at the rate that has been allowed to operate over the last year or so cost escalation schemes are necessary. One would like inflation to be reduced and then to have disarmament in export credits—including the cost escalation schemes with other countries—brought in as soon as possible.
  Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler: I am entirely satisfied with that explanation. I thought that my hon. Friend did well at short notice. I wanted to get on record BEAMA's comments on this subject because they are a valuable contribution to the debate on the clause.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Trade (Mr. Michael Meacher): What has been remarkable about this debate is the schizophrenia that exists among the Opposition in their attitude to Eastern bloc countries and their attitude to the injection of a political interest into the handling of ECGD matters. Several hon. Members have made clear that they believe that we should inject a new and essentially political direction into ECGD operations. I suggest that that is distinctly contrary to the other selected amendment in which the Opposition take the view that it is not in the national interest and is undesirable that there should be political implications. One cannot have it both ways.
  There is a particular contradiction in what has been said by some members of the Opposition. The hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) fulminated against any credit agreement with the USSR and indeed, if I understood him aright, said that credit agreements should be done away with. Yet the hon. Member for Horsham and Crawley (Mr. Hordern), in introducing the amendment, made clear that, so far from agreeing with his hon. Friend he took the opposite view. He said that there was a risk of a firm in his constituency losing business under the credit agreement as a result of the switch to
  1292
  foreign currency financing. I shall come back to this in a moment.
  Mr. Hordern: The Minister is trying to create a distinction between my hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) and myself when none exists. In two separate parts of my speech I was talking about the special arrangements made by the Government on dollar support for the ECGD and sterling. That was one point. The other point in my speech—with which my hon. Friend agreed—is that it is wrong to provide massive credit for a country that is building up armaments against us.
  Mr. Meacher: The hon. Gentleman cannot escape so easily. The import of his remarks about the firm in his constituency—about which he has spoken to me—was that he is extremely anxious for good constituency reasons that the business should go ahead and that the advantages of the export agreement should be available. That is an argument than can be understood by every hon. Member, but it is contrary to the view that he was seeking to promulgate in the rest of his speech, as was the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury, who waxed eloquent in saying that we should do away with the export agreement altogether, either because we are dealing specifically with the USSR—and the Opposition have well known views on that subject—or because the credit terms are too generous.
  Mr. Hordern: Will the Minister give way?
  Mr. Meacher: The hon. Gentleman had better wait until I return to that point, as I shall later.
  The hon. Member for Horsham and Crawley also drew attention to the rise in volume of credit extended to the Eastern bloc. There certainly has been a substantial increase. It partly reflects the increase in trade with them, but, more particularly, as the hon. Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Renton) rightly said, it reflects to a large extent the kind of commodities that are being sold. Large capital goods contracts require longer credit than consumer goods. There are, of course, international terms for such trade and, to a large degree, the figures reflect that.

  1293
  I should also like to comment on what was said by the hon. Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers). He made the point that is often heard that the growth of export credit in general is a bad thing. He quoted the new ceilings of commitments under the Bill. I cannot stress too often that 90 per cent. of British exports and 80 per cent. of business insured with ECGD are on a cash or short-term credit basis on which there is no public expenditure or interest rate support. One needs to bear that in mind.
  I turn to the concentration of the amendment on the Eastern bloc countries—the COMECON countries. The hon. Member for Horsham and Crawley drew attention to the risk factor involved in increased trading with them. He said that the cumulative indebtedness of the USSR was $14 billion. For all the COMECON countries, it is about $40 billion. I acknowledge the significance of those figures but point out that in the case of the non-oil less developed countries the figure for 1976—and 1976 figures were quoted for the COMECON countries—are about $112 billion.
  I fully appreciate that we must watch the development of this debt carefully but in looking at the risk factor specifically—and that is the point of the amendment—it would be wrong to concentrate exclusively on COMECON on these grounds, because the risks in terms of the increase in debt servicing ratios are greater in respect of other countries. Indeed, COMECON countries have been good payers.
  Of course, the hon. Member for Horsham and Crawley was referring to the future. Further commitments by Eastern bloc countries, as with other countries, are taken on only after an assessment has been made of the country's ability to service its debts. It is not considered that Eastern countries' present levels of borrowings from Western countries are likely to present insoluble repayment problems. It is significant that that is not the view of the Government only. The Euro-currency market, which is sometimes regarded as having a more independent view, also shares that view.
  The Eastern bloc countries' record of repayment has been impeccable and on strict commercial and underwriting terms—the grounds on which we operate—the extension of further credit is justified. But
  1294
  a careful watch has been kept and will be kept on the developing situation in the light of such figures as were quoted by the hon. Member for Horsham and Crawley. This will include close consultation and co-operation with Western colleagues. There is evidence that the Eastern European countries themselves are taking steps to reduce the level of indebtedness in their plans for the next five years.
  Mr. Tim Renton: The Minister cannot say that the record of North Korea—one of the centrally controlled economies—has been impeccable. Far from it. North Korea has declared a moratorium on all debt and interest repayment for some time. How much ECGD credit was extended to North Korea, and how much has it lost?
  6.30 p.m.
  Mr. Meacher: I was quoting figures for all the Eastern bloc countries. Those are the significant figures. I cannot quote figures for North Korea or for any other countries, either inside or outside Comecon, for reasons which have already been revealed to the House—for the sake of commercial confidentiality for the companies that are seeking to export to those countries. Nevertheless, wherever there is default on payment of debt or a moratorium, whether within COMECON or outside, this would be taken into account in considering the future extension of cover for the country concerned.
  It has been suggested that giving help to the USSR which is involved in the credit agreement that we are debating is aiding Soviet defence expenditure. It is not self-evident that East-West trade has made a difference to the degree of Soviet determination or ability to maintain its defence expenditure or its arms programme. That cannot be proved. In the case of the USSR or any other country, it is notional within its budget how the benefits of export credit are utilised. Access to Western technology may have created a degree of Soviet dependence on that access if progress in the civilian sector is to be maintained, and it could be argued that this is highly significant in terms of political leverage.
  Contrary to the suggestion of the hon. Member for Blackpool, South (Mr. Blaker), the general experience is that trade tends to encourage trade rather

  1295
  than war. He quoted some instances, but I suggest that they show only that trade rivalries may lead to war. Trade between opposed blocs tends, if anything, to ease international tension rather than the reverse. Indeed, the Soviet bloc's willingness to increase trade with the West is something that we ought to welcome as a form of closer integration of the world economies, with all the opportunities that it brings in terms of closer political understanding.
  The hon. Member for Blackpool, South also suggested that export credits had brought us in return only dumped goods. The hon. Gentleman mentioned polyester fibres. But I can tell him that we recently introduced anti-dumping provisions in respect of polyester fibre tops from Romania. If he says that these are not Russian goods, he might like to know that we have also achieved a satisfactory price undertaking from the Russians in respect of large dumper trucks.
  Mr. Blaker: Can the Minister quote some examples to support his claim that trade is a barrier to war?
  Mr. Meacher: That is the general experience. Historically, it has been found that where there are divisions between blocs and there is not the lubrication of trade to bring them closer, emnities and suspicions are likely to arise, both politically and economically. Such separation is likely to be inimical to the prospects of peace rather than the reverse.
  Mr. Ridley: In that case, why are the Government bringing sanctions against Rhodesia? If the Minister wants a better relationship and to ease the situation, surely he should be trading with Rhodesia.
  Mr. Meacher: The hon. Gentleman knows the answer to that. There was an illegal declaration of independence. The hon. Gentleman is trailing a red herring, and I shall not follow it.
  If we enforced the 10 per cent. ceiling suggested in the amendment, some contracts currently under negotiation would be lost. I wonder whether this is what the hon. Member for Horsham and Crawley intends since one of the firms that would suffer is the company in his constituency that is so eager to take
  1296
  advantage of the terms under the agreement.
  Mr. Hordern: I am happy to answer that question. It presents me with no problem. We are concerned with the total level of trade under the present agreement. I am anxious that companies in my constituency should secure as large a proportion of it as possible, but I am happy, in the wider interests of our nation and the West as a whole, that we should seek to achieve a sensible limitation of the amount of credit extended to Russia. That would be the most satisfactory solution of all.
  Mr. Meacher: The hon. Gentleman should talk to the management and work force of the firm in his constituency and ask whether they agree with what he has just said. I am convinced that they would not.
  Mr. John Nott: Will the Minister answer a question that has been put to him in this debate and on many other occasions? Is it true that a trader seeking to do business with Eastern European countries can go to the ECGD and be told the rate of interest involved, yet the House is not allowed to know that rate? Is this not either absurd or very wrong?
  Mr. Meacher: That is a remarkable question from the Opposition's spokesman on trade. The hon. Gentleman must realise that if the terms of the provision of credit and the interest rates were known generally, it would be more difficult for exporters to negotiate the best terms and would make it a great deal easier for buyers to bid up the terms in their own interests.
  Mr. Nott: If I exported capital goods to Russia, could I not go to the ECGD and ask what rates of interest would be involved, and would I not be given the answer? Why cannot Parliament be told that answer?
  Mr. Meacher: I have already given the answer to that question. It is not in the interests of exporters in the hon. Gentleman's constituency or elsewhere that this information should be general knowledge. It is commercially confidential, not only in respect of Russia and the credit agreements that are the subject of this debate, but generally. It is

  1297
  in the interests of British exporters that this should be so. No disregard for Parliament is being shown, but it would not be in the national interest for these details to be disclosed.
  Mr. Doug Hoyle: Is my hon. Friend aware that, if the Opposition are suggesting that all the information should be revealed in these cases, there are many things that I should like to know, particularly about the loans and grants made to companies in the private sector? I am always told that these are matters of commercial confidentiality, but if the Opposition are now asking that everything should be revealed, I am all for it.
  Mr. Meacher: That is an interesting proposition, and I am sure that my hon. Friend will pursue it with the Opposition.
  I was asked about the switch to foreign currency financing and the effect that it would have on our credit agreements with the USSR. I explained in earlier debates on the Bill that the revised public expenditure and PESC figures make it necessary for there to be a significant switch from sterling financing to foreign currency financing. The active efforts that will be necessary from all parties to bring about this switch are being made. This will be true for Russia as for other countries.
  The new policy will be implemented across the board as flexibly as possible to minimise the risk of disrupting exports—I am sure that the hon. Member for Horsham and Crawley will be glad to hear that. The extent to which access to sterling financing for any particular contract or any particular overseas countries will be controlled will depend on the total levels of business being put to the ECGD and the extent of the switch to foreign currency financing which has taken place and is taking place. A significant switch will be necessary, and active steps will be needed to bring this about. But if hon. Members are concerned about particular contracts, I will be glad to discuss them with them if they would like to send me details.
  I was asked about the terms of the credit agreement. A great deal of heat but not very much light was generated. First, it is and always has been the case that these matters are commercially con-
  1298
  fidential, and for very good reasons. I can therefore neither confirm nor deny the 7 per cent. figure which has been widely bandied about in the debate.
  Mr. Nott: Why, then, is the premium that the ECGD quotes for particular countries not commercially confidential material as well? It is available. Why is it that the rate of interest on a bilateral negotiation between two Governments is a matter of commercial confidentiality, whereas it is possible to find out the premium quoted by the ECGD in any one of 100 markets? What is the distinction in terms of commercial confidentiality between these two cases?
  Mr. Meacher: I repeat that neither in this case nor in others is it in the interests of British exporters that these things should be widely known in terms of the competition that they face internationally. We have made it clear that we were not initiating any special terms with the Russians, but were following the competition already set by France, Italy and Japan. It is not in Britain's interest that these things should be widely discussed.
  I was asked also what was the value of the credit agreement in terms of business that has already been contracted for under it. The total value of contracts placed under the credit agreement is £188 million, but substantial further items are advanced in negotiation under the credit agreement within the total of £950 million. The total is not £1,200 million as suggested by the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury.
  At 31st March last year, the ECGD had at risk with centrally planned economies a total of £1,263 million, or 12 per cent. of its total amount at risk. The value of the credit agreement with the Russians cannot, as I have said, be quantified, for the very good reason that so many variables are involved that realistic calculations cannot he made, with the best will in the world.
  The key variables are, first, the size and nature of the contracts involved, and these affect the length of credit and the rate of interest. The return received by the banks providing the finance is also important. This is related to the levels of commercial interest rates, the level of the deposits of the financing banks and

  1299
  the level of their fixed-rate export lending, against the background of the refinancing arrangements which will apply through the life of the contract. All of these are subject to change over the life of the contract.
  But the Anglo-Russian credit agreement covers large single contracts for capital equipment. We do not normally obtain such contracts in highly industrialised countries. If one is to do net present value comparisons, the correct basis of comparison is with the terms that we and others normally give to capital contracts in the more credit-worthy developing countries. In this comparison, there is virtually no difference between the net present value of a typical contract under the Anglo-Russian credit agreement and a broadly similar contract elsewhere.
  6.45 p.m.
  I was, however, asked whether there had been drawings on the credit for purposes other than the purchase of British goods. I do not know what source of information the hon. Member for Horsham and Crawley had for that idea. Loan drawings under the credit agreement are not made to the Russians. They are made to pay the exporters in respect of work carried out. The payments are made direct to the exporters and not to buyers to invest in London for any other purpose.
  It was also suggested that goods were being sold to the Russians at roughly half the actual price on the basis of the difference, it was suggested, between 7 per cent. and 12 per cent. Without in any way conceding that either of these figures is correct, the simple answer is that the general point being made applies to all exports sold on credit. Obviously, it is better to sell on cash terms, but we cannot ignore what our competitors are doing; and credit is a fact of international life, although I agree with the hon. Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers) that our aim should be to level up and harden the credit terms, interest rates, deposits, the time period, and so on, Some steps have been taken in this respect in the Washington agreement, under the general consensus, and most recently, under the EEC's draft directive.
  Mr. Viggers: I mentioned the total figure for the ECGD of £40,000 million and also £25,000 million special drawing rights. The hon. Gentleman has pointed out that 90 per cent. of this is self-financing business, but the remaining 10 per cent. is an enormous amount. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not wish to leave the debate without telling us exactly what initiatives the Government are taking to harden up export credit internationally. I think that the EEC initiative, useful though it may be, is not enough at this time. We must see more action.
  Mr. Meacher: I am not quite sure what the hon. Gentleman is suggesting. The Government are doing all they can in this respect. It is our hope that, if the Council of Finance Ministers agrees at its meeting on 14th March on the terms of the Community draft directive, it will be the basis for hardening the terms further in future and for extending the coverage of the existing consensus. All the main exporting countries are members of it. But a number, particularly the so-called super-competitive developing countries, are outside it and ought to be brought within it. It is our intention to do all we can to extend it in that way.
  The hon. Member for Mid-Sussex asked me what the effect of the Community draft directive would be on the terms of the credit agreement with the Russians. There is a provision that preexisting credit agreements are not affected by the new agreement, but nevertheless I assure the hon. Gentleman that there is a provision for a review of the terms of the credit agreement with Russia later this year, and we will be taking into account international developments such as those I have just mentioned.
  The hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury suggested in particular that we were not sufficiently taking into account the fact that we were giving assistance technologically as well as in credit to Russia. The hon. Gentleman will know, from his own late tenure at the Department of Trade and Industry, that COCOM covers matters of technology as well as military hardware, and that full care is taken to ensure that advanced technology which would be of interest to the Russians or to other Eastern bloc countries is not handed on.

  1301
  There is a firmly-held international agreement to that effect.
  I return more specifically to the proposed amendment, on the question of the risk of indebtedness. The ECGD, when issuing guarantees, intends to operate at no net cost to public funds. Business is underwritten on the basis of credit insurance judgments of the political, economic and buyer risks involved. Ceilings are placed on Section 1 commitments precisely in accordance with that.
  I believe therefore that it would he wrong for the House to reduce artificially and arbitrarily the limit within the total ECGD commitment for any particular bloc of countries, for political or any other reasons, when the full details of the country to which export credit is being extended are very carefully assessed in economic and commercial underwriting terms.
  I hope that I have dealt with all the points raised. I conclude by saying that it would be unwise to proceed with the amendment.
  Mr. Parkinson: When my hon. Friend the Member for Horsham and Crawley (Mr. Hordern) introduced the debate, he pointed out that the proportion of our trade with Eastern bloc countries had risen very substantially in the two years following 1974 and that in money terms the sums outstanding in March 1976 had almost doubled compared with the figures of less than two years earlier. He also pointed out that it is estimated that the Eastern bloc countries now owe the West a total of $45 billion.
  We had variants of this debate in Committee, and again today we have had a very full and interesting debate on the subject. We on this side argued—and no one has argued more forcibly than my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, South (Mr. Blaker)—that the West is engaged on a slightly mad race to give the Eastern bloc countries credit which has implictions that go far beyond the commercial. That is the point on which we have failed to carry the Minister with us.
  The Minister demonstrated again today in his closing speech that he has not understood the major point that we have been trying to make. His answer is always the same. He argued that if we
  1302
  did not do the business someone else would; therefore, we must not put British exporters at a disadvantage, and so we must give the Russians and other Eastern bloc countries cheap credit.
  The Minister was extremely coy, and I confess to thinking that he makes problems for himself in his coyness about the interest rate for the Russians. We are getting nearer to knowing it. We know that it is approaching the limits agreed in the EEC guidelines, and later this year there is every chance that it will be brought within those guidelines. We are getting near to the answer. We can only assume that the credit rate was so absurdly low and generous that the Minister was reluctant to admit it, hence the convolutions into which he gets himself.
  We on this side have presented an argument which I find compelling and which the Minister seems totally incapable of understanding. He should consider our own domestic situation. He and his colleagues spend hours arguing to the House that we must cut Government spending, including defence expenditure, so that we can release resources for exports and industry. The Prime Minister argues almost hourly that we must cut expenditure so that more money will be available to industry and to finance exports. He argues that we must cut our defence expenditure—and the Government have cut it—because we cannot afford to maintain a sensible level of defence expenditure and at the same time finance trade and modernise our industry.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) and others have been saying today that we are giving the Eastern bloc countries an opportunity that we are denying ourselves. We are saying to the Eastern bloc countries "You can continue to expand your defence expenditure and maintain and expand your defences, and we shall enable you at the same time, by cheap credit, to finance your industrial development". We are actually making sure that the Eastern bloc countries have an option that our own policies are denying to us, yet Ministers come to the House day after day and argue that we have to continue to do this.
  We are not saying that the Government should put British exporters at a

  1303
  disadvantage. What we are saying is much more significant. We believe that it is time for the OECD countries to get together and realise the long-term implications of the mad policy they are pursuing. We urge the Government to call the OECD countries together and ask whether it is really in our interests to give the Russians an option that we are denying ourselves. That is the point we have been trying to make in the hours of debate that we have had on this subject.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, South talked about the amazement of Mr. Amalrik, Mr. Solzhenitsyn and other Russian dissidents living in the West at the fact that the West does not seem to understand the dangerous situation that it is creating. It is allowing its industrial competitors to finance their development on the cheap and is enabling the Eastern bloc countries, who by no stretch of the imagination are friends of ours, to continue to finance their gigantic aggressive war machines.
  We are saying in our amendment—we do not intend to press it to a vote—that there is a problem here which goes far beyond the short-term trade implications, which seem to be all that the Government are capable of thinking of. We urge the Government, before it is to late, to take the initiative with the OECD counries and end this mad credit race.
  Amendment negatived.
  Mr. Parkinson: I beg to move Amendment No. 3, in page 3, line 30, at end insert—
  '(4) In section 2 of the Export Guarantees Act 1975, the following subsection shall be substituted for subsection (2):—
  "(2) For either of the purposes mentioned in subsection (1) above, the Secretary of State may. after consultation with the Export Guarantees Advisory Council and with the consent of the Treasury, make arrangements for facilitating, in cases in which it appears to him expedient in the national interest so to do, the payment of sums payable under contracts with persons carrying on business in the United Kingdom.".'
  It is no secret that when the Bill becomes law the ECGD will have a huge range of credit facilities at its disposal and very substantial sums of credit available to it. It is also no secret that, before the Government can enter into major business under Section 1, the Department and Ministers have to take
  1304
  the advice of an advisory board of experts who look at the commercial implications of the proposed business.
  In this amendment we are arguing that in the Section 2 business, the so-called national interest business, there should be a similar process of consultation. At the moment there is no need whatsoever for the Secretary of State to take advice from anyone except the Treasury in deciding whether ECGD should undertake business under Section 2. The Minister can take decisions without consulting Parliament or any outside agency. I know that this is a traditional complaint of Opposition trade spokesmen, and that every spokesman in such debates in recent years has highlighted this problem and complained about it.
  Today we are arguing that there are three new features that call for changes in the arrangements. The first is the size of the total national interest business. It is growing fast and it is a considerable sum. The second is the size of the individual contracts and deals which are done under Section 2. The biggest deal so far written by ECGD is for £212 million, a very large sum. Only a few years ago that would have been almost inconceivable, even for ECGD.
  The third reason why we believe that steps should be taken is that there have been examples recently of politically motivated decisions, and the House has had one or two of those in recent years which give it cause at least for concern and make most of us feel that it is time that the Secretary of State had to take the advice of outside experts, as he does in almost every field for which he is responsible, before he underwrites Section 2 business.
  7.0 p.m.
  In Committee we pointed as an example to a transaction which cause us great concern involving the Meriden Co-operative. Two or three years ago the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn), as Secretary of State for Industry, made it clear to Mr. Dennis Poore, who was chairman and managing director of Norton Villiers Triumph, that unless he, through his company, agreed to distribute motor cycles made by the Meriden Co-operative, the Secretary of State would

  1305
  refuse Mr. Poore's company its export credit facilities.
  Whatever else one says about the Secretary of State for Energy, one has to confess that he is absolutely open in his actions. He made no secret of his motives. He said he knew that Mr. Poore did not agree with him about his vision of the future of the British motor cycle industry but that unless he accepted the right hon. Gentleman's vision of it Mr. Poore would not be allowed to have the export credit which was absolutely vital to his other business.
  The ECGD facility was used by the then Secretary of State as a lever to make Mr. Poore do something he did not want to do, to make him take a decision which he regarded as strictly uncommercial. Mr. Poore did not believe that there was room in this country for three motor cycle factories. By agreeing to be responsible for the sales of the Meriden Co-operative motor cycles, he ensured that there were still three motor cycle factories, which he believed was one too many.
  The net result is that Mr. Poore's two factories are in a very bad state. His company is almost out of the motor cycle industry, and that industry in Britain has been effectively killed, or at least damaged beyond repair. Mr. Poore was forced to do something uncommercial by a politically motivated Secretary of State, and the results have been disastrous. The lever which was used to promote this totally uncommercial and disastrous decision was the ECGD facility.
  A month ago the present Secretary of State announced a bizarre bailing out for the Meriden Co-operative. He announced that Sir Arnold Weinstock, at a fairly advanced age, had decided to become a motor cyclist, and since Sir Arnold never does anything by half he decided to buy £1 million worth of motor cycles from the Meriden Co-operative. Sir Arnold is answerable to his shareholders in GEC for that decision. I am almost tempted to buy a share in the company and go along to the annual general meeting and ask Sir Arnold to explain that decision. He would have to do so if I asked him. Even Sir Arnold is answerable to his shareholders.
  The Secretary of State also announced that under the Industry Act £500,000
  1306
  would be made available to the co-operative so that it could purchase the distribution facilities of NVT. Again, Parliament had to be consulted about that decision and an order will have to be laid before the House and will have to be debated before that money can be made available to the co-operative.
  A third commitment in the bailing out was that the £6 million ECGD facility which had previously been given to NVT would be transferred to the Meriden Co-operative. We suggest that this is a hopelessly uncommercial political decision. In case the Minister says that we were arguing for political decisions in the last debate and against them in this one, let me explain the point to him.
  We never had any commercial doubts about the ECGD facilities with the Eastern bloc countries. My hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Renton) pointed out one centrally-controlled economy which has welshed on its debts, but I would not suggest that there was any likelihood of the COMECON countries doing that. Commercially the decision is quite reasonable, but politically and strategically it has enormous implications for the West.
  We say also that the two decisions that were taken in connection with the cooperative were purely politically-motivated and could have no commercial justification. The Meriden Co-operative has been a consistent loss-maker and has a huge accumulated loss on its balance sheet. It is solvent only because the Government have agreed not to ask for nearly £5 million of their money back and have agreed to defer any payment of that money.
  The co-operative has a record of unremitting loss. I agree that, thanks to enormous efforts by the work force—I pay credit to them for this—the company is now probably just about breaking even. But it has been a consistent loss-maker, and by commercial standards its balance sheet must look appalling. It would certainly have no chance of getting the facility which it has were it not the co-operative and were the decision not politically-motivated. If I took 100 private companies with such balance sheets to ECGD, it simply would not entertain the idea of doing business with them.

  1307
  Yesterday, in a debate on the Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill, we discussed the problems arising in development areas from the closure of the Plessey factories. In a slightly ominous intervention, one Labour Member asked what the Minister's attitude would be if one of the factories became a workers' cooperative. Immediately my heart sank and I thought "Oh dear, some more strictly-less-than-commercial business is looming on the skyline for ECGD."
  I have used the Meriden Co-operative's experiences with ECGD to show how it can be pressured by politically-motivated Ministers into taking uncommercial decisions which are unfair to the private sector, which would have no hope of obtaining similar facilities. We believe that because of the increase in the volume of ECGD business, because of the increased size of individual deals done by ECGD and because of the rather ominous examples that I have quoted of politically-motivated uncommercial decisions, it is time that in its Section 2 business ECGD had to take the advice of independent outside experts. That is the motive behind our amendment.
  Mr. Viggers: I support my hon. Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, South (Mr. Parkinson) in this important amendment. I am horrified at the example he gave of the way in which the application of the Secretary of State's judgment can be used in favour of companies which should not have finance supplied to them by the Department. We are talking about the Section 2 business. If we are to get this into perspective we must look at Section 1, which allows the Secretary of State to provide money for the purposes of encouraging trade with other countries.
  When I turn to Section 2(2), I see that the Secretary of State may also, with the consent of Parliament, make arrangements for giving guarantees
  "for facilitating, in cases in which it appears to him expedient in the national interest so to do".
  It is obvious that Section 2 business will not fall within Section 1. Under Section 2 the Secretary of State may apply his own subjective judgment if he thinks that something is in the national interest, but if it is for the purpose of encouraging trade with other countries the matter
  1308
  will be dealt with under Section 1. Section 2 allows the Secretary of State to provide money in the national interest, but it must be for business that is not for the purpose of encouraging trade with other countries.
  The volume of business under Section 2 has expanded from £2,600 million in January 1975 to an estimated £4,900 million in January 1977. The volume has about doubled in a two-year period, and the amounts involved are extremely large.
  What disturbs me and my hon. Friends is that the judgment which is applied to Section 2 business is the subjective judgment of the Secretary of State for Trade. It should be possible to apply another criterion. We suggest that it should be comparable to the criterion suggested in the Industry Act in which a panel of judges was set up to act as a check on the Secretary of State's subjective judgment.
  The former chief of the Export Credits Guarantee Department, Mr. Robert Fell, has referred to export credit guarantees being clearly ahead of Government expenditure and beyond parliamentary control. The Minister indicated—and it is acceptable—that it is not possible for Parliament to control the minutiae of export credit guarantees even when they are large. It is not possible for Parliament to vet or monitor them all. However, there should be some control other than parliamentary control. I respect the ability of those who have experience in industrial and commercial matters to apply proper judgments to commercial and exporting decisions.
  I should like to see an export credit advisory board set up to deal with the subjective judgment of the Secretary of State under Section 2. I would not expect such a board to monitor but I would expect it to deal with appropriate points of principle and with the larger decisions that are made. I would also expect it to give advice, which it would publish, on applications for export credit in such cases as the Meriden Co-operative, for instance.
  As someone who must refer to himself as a politician, I have to admit that I lack respect for the judgment of politicians. The pressures upon them are intense. The pressures when they involve

  1309
  employment in different areas can be so heavy that politicians, who are answerable to the House of Commons, cannot say the most difficult thing—that they will take no action. The pressures are so intense that politicians are often forced into bad decisions.
  I should like the politicians to be able to refer to an export credit advisory board, take its advice and stand up in the House to defy the pressures. They would then be able to say that a panel of experts had advised them against a course of action that would otherwise be forced upon them. I should like the Minister to feel that he could tell the House that he was taking such advice.
  Perhaps it is not right for us to seek increased parliamentary control over the export credit business, but control of some sort should be exercised over Section 2 business. Ideally, we should be able to apply business judgments to Section 2 criteria by taking the advice of a panel such as that suggested in the amendment. I support the amendment.
  7.15 p.m.
  Mr. Meacher: One of the more engaging things about the hon. Member for Hertfordshire, South (Mr. Parkinson) is his ability to make fluent speeches that have little to do with the amendment under discussion. In the previous debate I resisted the temptation to interrupt him to point out that he was saying that the Opposition's aim was to raise in OECD ECGD credit terms, whereas his amendment said nothing of the kind. It was aimed at putting an arbitrary ceiling on credit to COMECON countries. The hon. Member has done the same thing again. The amendment concerns Section 2(2) of the Act, which has a highly specific use and to which I shall come later. That section has never been used in practice.
  More than half the hon. Member's speech was about Meriden, which in terms of Section 2 business amounted to £6 million out of a total section 2 cover of £4,000 million.
  The section has a potential use but has never been applied. Assurances have been given to the House by my right hon. and hon. Friends in the past that the power to match unusual credit terms will be used sparingly and only where it is clearly in the national interest. The
  1310
  United Kingdom is opposed to the principle of credit mixte arrangement because they disturb commercial credit terms. They blur the distinction between commercial credit and aid and tend to attract aid away from the countries that most need it. We have not, however, been successful in persuading other countries to cease making available such terms in the past and it has therefore remained a necessary weapon.
  The other use of the power is, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said on 15th December, to make arrangements to enable loans to be made in connection with the foreign currency financing of export credit. This is a contingency provision. We hope that the market will be able and willing to provide the necessary finance for this business Those are the purposes for which Section 2 is designed. They are for specific purposes.
  The concept of the national interest is not new. It has been used by successive Governments in different measures. For example, it was used by the last Conservative Government in their Industrial Relations Act.
  Consultation with an advisory council or an export credit guarantees board, as the hon. Member for Gosport (Mr Viggers) suggested, would not be favoured by the Export Guarantees Advisory Council itself. I argue that it is unnecessary on the basis on which powers are exercised. It is not for the council to judge what is in the national interest. That is not its rôle. Judging what is in the national interest is clearly a function of the Government, and I hope that that will be accepted. The Government are the institution that is able to judge an issue of national interest. although I am aware that there must be criteria by which they do so.
  The use of Section 2—the national interest section—is misunderstood. I do not blame the hon. Member for Hertfordshire, South for the emphasis he put on Meriden, but he got the issue out of perspective. I shall spell out why. Section 2 really constitutes what is conservatively construed as non-commercial risk insurance rather than being involved with Meriden-type insurance cases. These are extremely few and far between. One can count on the fingers of one hand the number of such cases that have been

  1311
  given Section 2 cover over the last decade. As I say, the amount in the Meriden case is infinitesimal as compared with the total commitments under Section 2. These are the criteria that are used.
  Mr. Parkinson: I am slightly puzzled by what the Minister is saying. I am not reading from the departmental brief but looking at the accounts of the Exports Credits Guarantee Department, in which it is said that the remaining 5 per cent. of ECGD's export credit insurance business, for instance, is underwritten in the national interest under Section 2 of the Act. I do not quite understand what the Minister is saying. Is he saying that the Section 2 business is a tiny element or that it is a considerable element? This is a point of information.
  Mr. Meacher: I was coming on to a clarification of Section 2. I was saying that the "political" kind of case that the hon. Gentleman was citing, illustrating his case with Meriden, is exceedingly rare. I was saying that Meriden, with its total of £6 million, is a minute proportion of the £4,000 million which is the total Section 2 commitment at present. Section 2 is quite considerable, but it is not to be construed using the example of Meriden.
  The point I was making is that the hon. Gentleman gave much of his speech to talking of Meriden, which is not indicative of Section 2 at all. Perhaps I could spell out the criteria used for Section 2 commitments. Business taken under Section 2 can include very sound business which is not taken under Section 1 simply because in commercial terms it does not offer an adequate spread of risk, or because of the size of the contract or the horizon of risk involved—for example, where there may be a credit period of seven to 10 years.
  Of course, this explains precisely why the hon. Member rightly drew attention to the fact that very large contracts are found under Section 2. He cited one of £212 million. They are, of course, par excellence the buyer credit contracts, and most of these are very large. They are relatively few out of the total number of contracts with which ECGD deals. They are very large items that form the great bulk under Section 2.
  1312
  New facilities—these are further criteria that I am giving that lead to inclusion within the Section 2 category—are also operated under Section 2 until experience has been gained of them. Thus, in the early days of the scheme all buyer credits were taken under Section 2, but many are now taken under Section 1. That does not indicate that they have suddenly become less political. Of course, it would be quite wrong to construe them in that way. At present all performance bond guarantees are taken under Section 2, but the advisory council will no doubt be reviewing the position in due course.
  I think that this explains why Section 2 is so large. It also explains why it would be quite wrong to see it as indicating in any way at all the extent to which the Government were using political criteria for the provision of export credit cover. However, where this is thought to be the case, in the example of Meriden that the hon. Gentleman cited, for example, it was precisely because it was exceptional that a full statement was made to the House, first by my right hon. Friend who is now Secretary of State for Energy and then again, on the transfer of cover from NVT to the Meriden Cooperative, by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry.
  I conclude by saying that obviously it is not the intention that ECGD should underwrite—to use the phrase coined by my right hon. Friend the Member for Huyton (Sir H. Wilson) in 1949, I think, when he stood at the Dispatch Box as President of the Board of Trade—unduly hazardous or quite crazy risks. I think that that is a striking phrase and quite a good illustrative phrase.
  In covering business under Section 2 in the national interest, ECGD has access to the advice of other Departments and, of course, to outside sources, as may be necessary, and it operates such credit insurance at no net cost to public funds. The very fact that that goal is very substantially met, indicates the constraints in the use of Section 2 just as much as in the case of Section 1.
  I hope, therefore, on the basis of these arguments, that the hon. Gentleman will withdraw the amendment.
  Mr. Parkinson: The Minister said that I had an engaging ability to make very

  1313
  strong speeches which had nothing to do with the amendment. I should like to reciprocate the compliment and say that he has an engaging ability to misunderstand the argument that I am putting forward. His answers are very often to points that I have not made and are very rarely to those that I have made.
  I gave three reasons why I believe that the amendment made sense: the volume of business and the fact that it was growing so rapidly, the size of the individual business that we being done under Section 2, and the political flavour in one or two of the recent decisions, particularly those affecting Merdian.
  The Minister chose to answer only the last of those points. He seemed to suggest that that was the only argument I had used. He said himself that quite often now business which was previously written under Section 2 is transferred to Section 1 and, therefore, comes under the aegis of the Export Credits Advisory Board. He seems to imply, therefore, that the business is almost interchangeaable, but he says that we should have a board giving advice in one area and that the same board should not give advice in another area, although the business could have been taken under either heading. That is not consistent and it is certainly unconvincing.
  Mr. Meacher: It might help if I clarify the point. The reason why business is provided with cover under Section 2 is precisely the fact that it is regarded by the advisory council at the time as noncommercial risk insurance.
  Mr. Parkinson: I thank the Minister for that intervention.
  I believe that the arguments are becoming more and more compelling for advice of the kind mentioned in the amendment to become available to the Secretary of State and to be part of the arrangements. However, this is not the moment to press the matter. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
  7.28 p.m.
  Mr. Parkinson: I started the Second Reading debate on this very important Bill by saying that it was, in fact, three Bills
  1314
  in one and that they were three very important Bills.
  Once the Bill receives Royal Assent, the United Kingdom will have adopted the new articles of the IMF and will have said an official goodbye to the Bretton Woods Agreement. We shall have adopted our new quota with the IMF, a quota which recognises our changed status within the international economic community and the growing power of the OPEC countries.
  In the second part of the Bill we are increasing the ECGD limits to a gigantic £56 billion, and when the Bill becomes law the ECGD will have at its disposal facilities that will make it one of the biggest export banks in the world. ECGD will be able to write business totalling nearly $100 billion—a huge responsibility for those administering it.
  In the third part of the Bill we shall be increasing the borrowing limits of the much-admired and much-praised Commonwealth Development Corporation.
  It is fortunate that the House has been able to give this important measure rather more careful scrutiny than it might otherwise have had. I suggest that it is absolutely right that a measure such as this, with far-reaching implications, should be discussed by the House not in the middle of the night, but at a time when hon. Members can deploy proper arguments without thinking that they are keeping their colleagues out of bed.
  I am happy that the House has given such examination to this important Bill. This measure contains important provisions which will produce benefits not only to those in this country who depend on trade but to countries which depend on the IMF. It will also give the Commonwealth Development Corporation the resources to enable it to expand its activities in some of the poorest and most deserving parts of the world.
  7.31 p.m.
  Mr. Robert Sheldon: I, too, found the debates extremely valuable in coming at a time when we are all wide awake in the early part of the evening rather than, as had been expected at the earliest, after 10 o'clock. As a result, we have had a longer debate than might otherwise have been the case. But those who share my interest in these matters will not deplore that outcome.

  1315
  We are dealing with a Bill covering a fairly limited range. I pay tribute to the debut of the hon. Member for Hertfordshire, South (Mr. Parkinson), who has conducted himself in his new duties in the very manner that we expected of him. Quite rightly, he has probed various matters. Following Second Reading, the Committee stage upstairs, Report and now Third Reading, I am sure the hon. Gentleman shares my feeling that we have been round this course pretty well and know most of the markers fairly accurately by now. The hon. Gentleman made nearly all the points which I thought he would be likely to make and, as is not surprising, brought out others which I had not appreciated. I pay tribute to him for that.
  This is a valuable Bill. We have taken account of some of the critical issues in the international monetary sphere, we have dealt with the problem of financing the increasing amounts which we shall need to extend our trading activities overseas, and we have given valuable assistance to the Commonwealth Development Corporation. The work has been done well. I think that the House should be pleased with the way that it has handled the Bill.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

NEW TOWNS (SCOTLAND) BILL
As amended (in the Standing Committee) considered.
Clause 1

  REVOCATION OR VARIATION OF ORDERS RELATING TO NEW TOWNS
  7.33 p.m.
  Mr. George Younger: I beg to move Amendment No. I, page 1, line 6, leave out "any" and insert "all".
  It has been suggested to me that this amendment would make a small improvement in the drafting of the Bill. I readily agree that this matter should have been dealt with in Committee, but it had not been drawn to my attention at that time. Therefore, I ask the House to consider it now.
  In the Bill as drafted the Secretary of State is required to consult
  "with any local authorities who appear to him to be concerned"
  before introducing an order under this legislation. There is the qualification that it is only
  "local authorities who appear to him to he concerned"
  which have to be consulted. Therefore, I do not think it is an objection to this amendment to states that the Secretary of State might be obliged, as a result of the amendment, to consult all kinds of local authorities which he might think had no real standing to be consulted.
  That point is safeguarded. The object of the amendment is to make it clear that the Secretary of State must consult every local authority which he considers to be concerned in the matter. I should have thought that that was a reasonable suggestion. I hope that the Minister will accept it.
  The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Mr. Gregor MacKenzie): As the hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger) said, the Secretary of State is under an obligation to consult
  "any local authorities who appear to him to be concerned"
  before judging whether it is expedient to proceed with the development of a new town.
  To substitute all "for" "any" would not alter the Secretary of State's discretion. This is the form of wording used

  1317
  in the New Towns (Scotland) Act 1968, Section 1 of which lays on the Secretary of State the obligation to consult
  "any local authorities who appear to him to be concerned"
  before making an order designating an area as the site of a new town. It has always been in his mind to do that. In the case of any designation order, the Secretary of State will consult the local authorities concerned.
  Mr. Younger: Would it be open to the Secretary of State to decide that a number of local authorities were concerned, but to consult only one or two which were convenient for him to consult? We must enact legislation which will cover all eventualities. Is the Minister satisfied that the wording, as it stands, obliges the Secretary of State to consult absolutely all local authorities which he considers to be concerned?
  Mr. MacKenzie: I can assure the hon. Gentleman on that point. The Secretary of State consulted all the local authorities which were concerned with this legislation. My right hon. Friend consulted all local authorities, not only those which might give him the right answers. Some were not as pleased as others, as the hon. Gentleman might have expected. The legislation, as drafted, covers the point made by the hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Younger: I thank the Minister for that explanation. With the assurance that the clause, as drafted, has the effect which I wish to achieve, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 2

  DUTIES AND POWERS OF WINDING UP BODY
  Mr. Gregor MacKenzie: I beg to move Amendment No. 2, in page 2, line 18, at end insert—
  '(iii) without prejudice to the powers of the Secretary of State mentioned in head (ii) above, to offer to sell to previous proprietors, on terms approved by the Secretary of State and the Treasury, interests in land which had been acquired from those proprietors by the development corporation;'.
  This amendment implements the undertaking which I gave in Committee to consider a specific provision that previous
  1318
  owners of land would be given the opportunity to reacquire that land from the winding up body before it was offered to third parties. I explained in Committee that that was the Government's intention and that I would give effect to it in the order to be made under Clause 1 by virtue of the provision in Clause 2(c). I accept the view expressed in Committee, and this amendment is designed to meet the points which were then made.
  Subject to the right of the Secretary of State, after consultation with the winding-up body, to specify that certain assets should be offered to specified persons—in the case of Stonehouse, this applies to the disposal of the Canderside area to the Scottish Development Agency for industrial development and the disposal of the 98 houses which have been built to the Hamilton District Council—the amendment provides that the winding-up body shall offer to sell land to the proprietors from whom it acquired the land, and that only if the previous proprietors decide not to reacquire their property shall it be offered to third parties. The House will also note that the disposal is to be made
  "on terms approved by the Secretary of State and the Treasury".
  There is no specific obligation in the amendment for the winding-up body to obtain the best terms it reasonably can. I emphasised in Committee that the Government's intention has always been to adopt a flexible attitude to the terms that would be acceptable for re-purchase. This was provided for in the Bill as originally drafted, which said that the Secretary of State and the Treasury could consent to disposal at other than the best terms they could reasonably obtain. The amendment makes the position clear.
  The Government's intention is to be fair and reasonable. We want to consider each case on its merits and in consultation with the winding-up body. The number of farms involved will not reach double figures. Clearly, the current valuation and the cost of the land when acquired will be taken into account, as must other factors such as liability for capital gains tax, the state of maintenance of fencing and buildings, whether improvements or demolitions have been carried out, and whether the farm has been well maintained or otherwise—for example, by the application of fertilisers

  1319
  —since the time of acquisition. In each case we hope to reach a fair and equitable arrangement. I hope that this will meet the point raised by Opposition Members.
  Mr. Malcolm Rifkind: I do not wish to detain the House for long because there is much important business still to be considered.
  Everyone will welcome the purpose of the amendment which is, as it were, to give the first option to those who had their land removed from them, either voluntarily or by compulsory purchase, to repossess their land if it is not required for the purpose for which it was originally obtained. That is a fair and necessary part of the Bill, and I do not think that it will give rise to any objections from any quarter of the House.
  However, I am concerned about the financial basis upon which the cost to the original owner is to be determined. The amendment states that the land will be offered to the previous proprietors
  "on terms approved by the Secretary of State and the Treasury".
  While I have no doubt that the Secretary of State and the Treasury will try to be fair and flexible in determining the appropriate price, I wonder whether this is the appropriate procedure to write into a Bill of this kind. If someone had land acquired from him against his wishes for a particular purpose, and subsequently it was found that the land was not to be used for that purpose, he should have not merely the right to have the land offered back to him but the right to buy it at the price which the land was worth. In other words, it should not be entirely up to the Treasury or the Minister to decide how much a person must pay to get his own land back.
  While in practice the Department may be very reasonable, there will be nothing to stop its fixing a price that is unrealistic and beyond the means of the original proprietor, which would perhaps impose an unfair burden. If a person surrendered his land five or 10 years ago for £50,000, to offer it back for exactly the compensation which was paid at the time might be unreasonable, given the inflation since then. It would seem fair to offer the land back for the same real value as the original compensation. In other words, all
  1320
  that would be required would be to take account of the depreciation of the currency over that period and if the original owner wished to have his property back he should pay the Treasury an amount comparable to that which he received in compensation. That would seem to be fair.
  7.45 p.m.
  The original owner is in a completely different position from that of any other member of the public who is interested in acquiring the land. If other members of the public wished to buy the land, it should be offered to the highest bidder on the normal recognised basis. That would be fair and unobjectionable. But we are concerned with a restricted class of individual who has been forced to surrender to the Government for a particular purpose property or land for which subsequently the Government or a public body find they have no need. It seems extraordinary that the Government should be providing for themselves powers to charge whatever price they choose in order to return to someone his own property, which was taken away from him without any justification, as it turned out.
  This is similar to the Crichel Down case many years ago. One can understand the sensitivity of Governments of all political complexions when they face such matters, but the Minister has not yet given any reason why the total unqualified control over the price to be paid for the return of the land is to be in the hands of the Secretary of State and the Treasury. I know that they will try to be reasonable, but occasionally there will be a strong difference of view about what should be the appropriate price.
  Will there be any neutral arbiter in such a situation? Will the original owner of the land be able to say "I do not think the price is fair or reasonable. Let us therefore refer it to an arbitration board or tribunal to decide"? There does not seem to be such a power. In its absence, it appears that the Government are acquiring for themselves a totally unnecessary and untrammelled control over a matter which could lead to a great feeling of resentment, if not injustice, at this power being acquired in such a way.
  I hope that the Minister will at least indicate why it is necessary for this power to be given to the Secretary of State and

  1321
  the Treasury, and why it would not be more reasonable and fair to allow the matter to be referred to a third party if there is any genuine disagreement. After all, the question of compensation for land under a compulsory purchase order when it first comes up, as I understand it, is referred to an independent arbiter. Here we are dealing with a similar situation if the land is ultimately to be handed back to the original owner, and it seems reasonable that a similar procedure should apply. I hope that the Minister will address himself to that problem.
  Mr. Alick Buchanan-Smith: Whilst I welcome the intention behind the amendment and am grateful that the Government have proved themselves flexible and sympathetic to the points put to them at an earlier stage of the Bill, I shall be interested to hear what the Minister of State says in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Rifkind). I should like to raise a slightly narrower point.
  As the Minister of State knows, I have been in touch with his Department on behalf of certain interested parties who contacted me on the general principle of land being offered back. I understand that, whilst the land will be offered back to most of those who previously owned it, there may be some cases where the Government think it right to retain some of that land in the first instance in case any other Government Departments or public bodies may be interested in that land. I know about the procedures, having had to deal with them myself.
  From the correspondence I have had with the Department, I understand that on a limited scale the Scottish Development Agency may be interested in acquiring certain land that is at present held in public hands, for some limited form of development in the future. Therefore, for reasons which I understand, I was given the answer that there might be instances where the land would not be offered back, because the Government might wish it to be held in public hands until the interests of other public bodies were ascertained. Certain other public bodies might want to acquire the land. I have mentioned one, the SDA. In such a case the previous owner would not be given the opportunity to buy it back.
  1322
  Therefore, my purpose in speaking briefly is to ask whether the Minister of State can give me any information on this point, about which I have been in correspondence with his Department. Is it envisaged that the land covered by the amendment will be offered back to all previous proprietors or is there any change in the general position which I raised originally in correspondence? Does the Minister envisage keeping particular restrictions or qualifications on the "offer-back" power which he is seeking? It would be useful to the House if the Minister could explain that power and elaborate on it a little further.
  I welcome this useful amendment and the Government's flexibility, but we need a little more clarification of the Government's thinking about land that they may wish to hold for purposes of the kind I have mentioned.
  Mr. Younger: I thank the Minister for the great care he has taken on the whole issue, which was the most important matter we discussed in Committee. I know that he has taken a great deal of personal interest in trying to find a solution, and we are all very grateful.
  The amendment concerns a small number of people, but it is right that the House should not think any the less of the problem purely because only a small number are involved. I am glad that we have taken a fairly strong line on the issue.
  The Bill for the first time intends to reverse the designation of a new town. A small number of people who previously owned land in the area and had it compulsorily purchased at the time of the designation now find that the distressing thing which happened to them some years ago was not necessary, and that there is now a likelihood that the land is no longer required for a new town, as a result of which it may well have to be disposed of. This could mean a person who lived in a farm or had property in a particular area which he regarded as home being not only deprived of ownership but liable to see someone else stepping into it and enjoying the ownership. That is what the Government are trying to put right by the amendment.
  What is the Minister's thinking about thing which happened to them some years the price that is likely to be asked of the

  1323
  former owner? To what extent are we, by this debate, or the Minister, by his amendment, laying down for future holders of his office how they are likely to behave when such a problem arises? We must remember that, rightly or wrongly, the Bill does not apply only to Stone-house but is a general Bill enabling new towns to be de-designated. Therefore, although we all know that Stone-house is the only place likely to be affected now, we are making legislation that can have effect in the future. I should like the Minister to tell us the sort of attitude he thinks he and his successors should take to the problem of the price to be required of a person who is offered back his own property.
  We are obviously all agreed that it would not be right for the former owner to have to pay the top price now available for the land. Because of exceptional inflation and exceptional demand for particular forms of land, the price for many farms in this part of Lanarkshire might be unrealistic. There are rumours all over the country of people, particularly those with investments in Arab oil, who may be prepared to pay more than ordinary farmers can offer. That is bad enough in the ordinary way, but for someone whose property was compulsorily purchased it would not be acceptable.
  I hope that the Minister will say that a future Secretary of State will take into account the price that the owner originally received as compensation plus a factor to reflect inflation since then. That would be a fair basis upon which a former owner could be offered back his land.
  There are two main assurances that I should like from the Minister. First, can he assure us that it is his aim, and that it will be the aim of those holding his office for as far as he can see in the future, for a former owner to buy back his property if a formula can be found which is not adverse to the public interest? Secondly, can he assure us that no former owner will be asked to match the highest price obtainable on the market if that can be seen clearly to be out of step with other prices in the area?
  The Minister said in Committee that as far as his information went there had not been much change in land prices in
  1324
  the area around Stonehouse since the property was compulsorily acquired. It is difficult to make comparisons for different pieces of land, and there has been no genuine market in land in the area of the new town during this period, because the new town was due to be built there. But in all the inquiries I have made since the hon. Gentleman said that in Committee I have found no one who lives in the area, or is involved in the buying or selling of land, who will agree that there has been little increase in the value of agricultural land in Lanarkshire over the past three years. Everyone whom I asked said the reverse, that there had been a considerable escalation of the price of land generally in the area.
  Therefore, I hope that the Minister will not rest on saying that he thinks that the general market value in the area would be fair. I do not think that it would be fair for the very small number of people with whom we are concerned. That is the case of those in the area who have written to us both about the matter.
  I am grateful to the Minister for all that he has done. The amendment should be accepted as a genuine effort to solve the problem, but I hope that before we pass it we shall have an assurance from the hon. Gentleman so that those who may be affected by the provision in the future will be able to refer to the intention clearly stated by both sides of the House, that it is our aim that those who wish to buy back their former land at a reasonable price will be able to do so and will not have to compete on the open market against bidders offering unrealistic prices.
  If we can obtain that assurance, the House will have done a good job in protecting the rights of unfortunate people who have suffered great upset and disturbance because of the change of policy, and who feel that their only recourse is to the House to ensure that their rights are respected.
  Mr. Gregor MacKenzie: I hoped that I had already given the sort of reassurance that the hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger) sought. He made the point in Committee, as did my right hon. Friend the Member for Lanark (Mrs. Hart). I indicated earlier the basis on which we

  1325
  proposed to consider these matters. The Government's intention was to be flexible.
  The hon. Member for Edinburgh, Pent-lands (Mr. Rifkind) raised with me the question of Crichel Down. The procedure adopted after that was that land should be sold on the best possible terms. That was in the original Bill which we discussed in Committee. The amendment therefore provides more flexibility and takes into account the difficulties created for people by our decisions. The situation will not be less flexible, as the hon. Member seemed to suggest.
  8.0 p.m.
  Turning to the question of who sets the price on resale, there is nothing here to stop the Secretary of State referring a disputed case to an independent person. The district valuer's opinion might also be sought. As for the procedure of price setting, once one has a valuation, one has to consider the state of the land, the state of maintenance of the buildings, and so on, and the question of capital gains, which has caused some concern.
  The hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Buchanan-Smith) raised the question of the retention of the land by the former owners. As I have said, Part II provides for the Secretary of State to instruct the winding-up body to sell to specified persons. In the case with which I know that the hon. Gentleman is concerned, the farm is within the area which one hopes will be used for industrial development. I know that this matter is of concern to the man involved, who has written to hon. Members and raised it with the Press. All that I can say is that he accepted the price offered, and made no appeal thereafter. So far as the Government are concerned, that is the position. It would not be right to hold out any hopes to anyone within the area which we and the SDA have in mind for industrial purposes. It would be right to proceed with industrial development.
  Mr. Buchanan-Smith: In the event of any of these plans for industrial development not going forward, might there then be a possibility of the land being offered to this gentleman? In previous cases elsewhere, land has lain for a long time and people have forgotten the original purpose for which it was designated. It
  1326
  could be unfortunate in these circumstances if he saw others able to buy back their land.
  Mr. MacKenzie: We have discussed this matter with the SDA, which intends to acquire the land for industrial purposes on Canderside. However, if things did not turn out that way, the gentleman concerned would have exactly the same rights as are available in the earlier cases which I have described.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That the Bill be now read the Third time.
  8.3 p.m.
  Mr. Younger: I should first like to thank the Minister of State for the way in which he has tried to meet as many points as possible during our proceedings. However, it must be put on record that it is a sad event that the Bill should ever have been brought forward or that it should now be passed. It represents a failure of the Government. As the right hon. Member for Lanark (Mrs. Hart) said on Second Reading, it is a shabby and shoddy Bill.
  The Government have always said that they are as strongly in favour of the principle of new towns as they ever were and that they are still anxious to sustain the prosperity of the other new towns in Scotland. But, as has been made clear to the Government and many hon. Members, other people, who feel equally strongly about the future of new towns see the abandonment of this one as a serious and regrettable commentary on the Government's attitude.
  Most people would think that the designation of Stonehouse is as necessary today as it was when it was originally designated. Although it was foreshadowed by the previous Labour Government in the late 1960s, it was formally designated by the last Conservative Government, when I was at the Scottish Office, precisely because it was needed as part of the solution to the redevelopment of the whole Glasgow area.
  As the Town and Country Planning Association has made clear in a letter to the Minister of State, of which I have seen a copy, it believes that the necessity for new towns as a tool in the redevelopment of Central Glasgow is every bit as

  1327
  important today as it was then. In fact, the Government discovered that they required a large sum for the new East End development in Glasgow, which we thoroughly welcome. We think that it is desirable and that it will be successful. But that meant that they did not have the money to pay for Stonehouse.
  Although the previous Conservative Government had set aside funds for the development of Stonehouse, the present Government do not have the money to pay for both. The reason is that they have spent the money on so many other things which are irrelevant to the problems of Glasgow, of Scotland or of the country as a whole.
  All those concerned in the techniques of town planning would repeat today that it is a misplaced consideration of town planning principles to think that one can redevelop Central Glasgow only by redeveloping the Eastern-Central part of Glasgow, without the assistance of new towns. As the Town and Country Planning Association has said, the need for new towns is no less pressing and the existing new towns cannot fill the gap left by Stonehouse.
  Nor does it necessarily follow that the development which would have gone to Stonehouse will go to the East End of Glasgow—although I hope that it will go there or to the other new towns. There is already evidence that the de-designation of Stonehouse has led to a lessening of interest in industrial development in the area.
  Therefore, in reluctantly allowing the Bill to pass, we must regard it as a minor failure among the growing number of failures of the Government. Like all the others, it is due to the fact that they unwisely overspent the money that they had in 1974 and 1975. They, the people of Britain and those concerned with the development of Stonehouse are now paying part of the price.
  This is a sorry tale. I am sorry that the Bill has come forward. However, since the Government have run out of funds, I suppose that we must give it a Third Reading.
  8.8 p.m.
  Mrs. Margaret Bain: Although the Government have made some concessions tonight on the
  1328
  most controversial parts of the Bill, I should not like it to receive a Third Reading without some comments being made from this Bench.
  We in the SNP believe that the stillbirth of Stonehouse New Town has implications for the whole of Scotland, far beyond those that it has for the local area, of which I am a native. The hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger), referring on Second Reading to the Government's public expenditure policy, said that he saw no way of avoiding the de-designation of the new town.
  It is particularly amusing that the Conservative Party, of all parties, in view of its present policy, should think that it could find enough money to ensure that the West of Scotland received a decent deal from Westminster.
  Mr. Younger: Would not the hon. Lady agree that if the Government had not spent hundreds of millions of pounds, with her help, on nationalising the aircraft and shipbuilding industries, the money could have been spent on Stone-house? Would she not have preferred it to be spent in that way?
  Mrs. Bain: No doubt the hon. Gentleman would prefer all the money to be spent on defence, which is a policy with which I would not agree.
  I should like to refer the Minister back to the comments of his right hon. Friend the Member for Lanark (Mrs. Hart). The right hon. Lady referred to the fact that what was happening to Stonehouse was a complete change in Government planning strategy. Despite the protestations during Second Reading and in Committee, many of us are not convinced that there has been a change in the Government's planning strategy.
  Representing, as I do, a new town and speaking, as I have, to representatives of the development corporation, the local council and Strathclyde regional councillors, I can say that there is a great fear that a deliberate policy is being adopted by regional authorities, with the blessing of the Government, against the new towns. For example, in Cumbernauld a college was closed for no apparent reason. We feel that this is part of an overall strategy.
  Mr. Teddy Taylor: I am still shell-shocked by what the hon. Lady has just said. What did she mean when she said that defence is not a policy that she cares for?
  Mrs. Bain: The SNP does not believe in increasing expenditure on defence. We would rather see an independent Scotland play its rôle, as do other small countries in Europe, by contributing about 5 per cent. of GNP on defence rather than exorbitant sums advocated by the hon. Gentleman who might prefer to spend his money on Globtik.
  I remind the Minister of the important part that the new towns have played in attracting industry. I find it unacceptable that there should be so much uncertainty about what the SDA should be doing in respect of new towns such as Stonehouse. They have provided homes for people who have come from the most deprived areas in West Scotland. I also draw the Minister's attention to the DOE statistic of 95·7 per cent. in the worst areas of multiple deprivation.
  There is a fear that because of the Government's present change of attitude the project will take much longer to complete than anticipated. How de we retain people in West Scotland if we do not have new towns that are expanding and developing? One of the greatest curses of Scotland has been that many of our young talented people have been forced to emigrate because of lack of job opportunities and decent housing. The new towns have provided that in West Scotland.
  I reiterate that my party is totally opposed to public expenditure cuts. We find them completely unacceptable. Given that there is great potential within the Scottish economy at the moment, there is no reason why the Government cannot have a policy whereby the new towns complement the old conurbations in West Scotland.
  8.12 p.m.
  Mr. Alick Buchanan-Smith: The speech of the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mrs. Bain) was another example of the attitude that one can spend, spend, spend so long as one does not have responsibility. I hope that the people of Scotland will realise that a policy of spend, spend, spend also means a policy of tax, tax, tax.
  Mrs. Bain: Does the hon. Gentleman concede that in the two new towns where the SNP has control our ability to handle the economic situation has meant that rent and rates have been frozen?
  Mr. Buchanan-Smith: All that means is that the SNP is not providing services. Anyone can cut public expenditure as long as he does not have to provide the services. I shall take a more realistic attitude than the hon. Lady.
  I entirely accept that what the Government have done has been decided by priorities. All of us are sorry that Stone-house New Town has been buried in this way. Many of us hope to see more money spent on projects such as the East End project in Glasgow as a result of this change in the Government's tactics and strategy.
  Therefore, while many of us regret the passing of Stonehouse New Town, we shall judge whether it is right or wrong by what happens in the months ahead. That is what this debate is all about.
  I hope that the Minister will say a few words about Government strategy in this regard. Many of us hope that as a result of the passing of the Bill more resources will be devoted to projects such as the East End project in Glasgow. That is a fair point to make.
  I agree with the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East that there must not be a vacuum with regard to projects in Glasgow. They affect people's lives, and the hopes and aspirations of younger people in particular, as well as their opportunities. I hope that as a result of the passage of the Bill we shall see a new impetus and energy in developing the East End of Glasgow.
  8.14 p.m.
  Mr. Gregor MacKenzie: The hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger) went through the usual ritual dance that we expect from the Opposition Front Bench about this being a great failure because the Government had run out of money. The hon. Gentleman completely ignored the fact that there are very good planning reasons as well. Many of us who represent constituencies in Glasgow feel that there are good planning reasons why this should be done. I dealt with this in the course of my Second Reading comments.

  1331
  When the population growth estimates in West Scotland first appeared, there was very much a need to relieve the population in Glasgow. By and large, that was done by the several new towns in Scotland. The subsequent forecasts fell short of the previous forecasts and showed quite clearly that there was enough housing and industrial land in West Central Scotland without Stone-house.
  Mr. Younger: Does not the Minister recall that the Town and Country Planning Association, an entirely nonpolitical body, has written saying that his last statement is untrue? Would the hon. Gentleman be prepared to publish or send me a copy of any reply that he may have sent to the letter that he received from the director of the Town and Country Planning Association?
  Mr. MacKenzie: I shall be happy to do so. It is simply a matter of judgment. This is the judgment not only of myself and the Government, but of the Strathclyde Regional Council as well. Both central and local government have changed the emphasis of their social and economic policies towards urban renewal in West Central Scotland. In those circumstances, it does not seem to us to be justified to continue to develop Stonehouse with the major expenditure on infrastructure which that would entail.
  The hon. Gentleman said that this had nothing to do with planning but was to do with money. He suggested that had we not decided to nationalise the shipbuilding and aircraft industries we could have had the resources to do this. The hon. Gentleman sometimes forgets that in the course of the last few weeks we have been able to help people on the Clyde in Marathon and in Scott Lithgow. We have also given considerable support to workers in the car industry. There has been a very clear indication of the Government's industrial priorities in Scotland. It may well be that with regard to Marathon, Scott Lithgow, Chrysler and British Leyland we could not have counted on the support of the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends. They were totally opposed to the actions which the Government took at that time.
  1332
  The hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mrs. Bain) questioned the attitude of the Government with regard to the new towns in Scotland. At the risk of sounding arrogant and conceited, I should like to think that I played a small part in the development of Scottish new towns as a member of Glasgow Corporation for many years. I have always been of the view that these five towns are necessary, and it is still the view of the Government that we should allow them to continue to the targets which were set for them some time ago.
  But I do not think that setting up a new town in any area is necessarily the complete answer to the problems. One of the main problems in this part of Lanarkshire, which I know quite well, is finding jobs for the people of the area. It is not necessarily to attract people from Glasgow to take up jobs. It is to attract the jobs themselves. That is why we have been careful in the presentation of this Bill to ensure that there was land available for a major industrial development.
  We are all conscious of the fact that this is a big area, and we do not want to fritter it away on small developments. We know the difficulty about having enough land for large-scale developments which are essential in Central Scotland.
  The hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Buchanan-Smith) asked what we proposed to do about the East End project. I represented an East End seat on Glasgow Corporation for a considerable time. The area is greatly in need of regeneration in terms of housing, industry and everything else. One of the most exciting things to have happened since I have been associated with the Scottish Office is the decision of the Secretary of State and of his predecessor to go ahead with what I think will be an exceedingly valuable contribution to the people of Glasgow.
  It is worth remembering that people who live in the East End of Glasgow and have lived there all their lives are entitled to stay there and to have their being where they were brought up. This is an essential part of the Government's thinking, and that is why we are going ahead with this very exciting scheme—something which many of us have wanted to see happen for a very long time. The Government will do all that they can to

  1333
  ensure that it goes ahead as fast as possible, and in this connection we are indebted to the regional council, the district council, the SDA and the Scottish Special Housing Association for the assistance which they are giving.
  With those few explanations, I trust that the House will agree to give the Bill a Third Reading.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.

  TOWN AND COUNTRY PLANNING (SCOTLAND) BILL [Lords]
  As amended (in the Standing Commit tee), considered.
Clause 3

  APPEALS FROM DETERMINATIONS OF REGIONAL PLANNING AUTHORITIES
  8.23 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Frank McElhone): I beg to move Amendment No. 1, in page 2, line 24, after 'authority', insert:
  '(1) After subsection (1), there shall be inserted the following subsection—
  "(2) Where subsection (5) of section 32 of the Act of 1972 applies to an exercise of power by the regional planning authority under that section, the person appointed by the regional planning authority shall be a person approved by the Secretary of State." (2)'.
  This amendment gives effect to a recommendation of the Scottish Committee of the Council on Tribunals which the Government have agreed to accept. Section 179 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973 gives a regional planning authority the same powers as the Secretary of State has under Section 32 (1) to (5) of the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1972. The regional planning authority may in certain circumstances call in applications made to a district planning authority, and, if either the applicant or district planning authority so desires, it must afford them an opportunity of appearing before and being heard by a person appointed by it for the purpose. Such a hearing normally takes the form of a public local inquiry.
  In holding public local inquiries, the Government observe the principles of openness, fairness and impartiality advocated in 1957 by the Franks Commission and expect other bodies such as regional planning authorities to do likewise. Public confidence in these matters is vitally important, and it is desirable that the reporter holding an inquiry should be seen to be impartial and in no way biased towards the planning authority. We therefore have an administrative arrangement, set out in SDD Circular 76/1975, whereby regional planning authorities approach the Scottish Office and obtain

  1335
  the services of a reporter from the Secretary of State's panel. This arrangement has worked well so far.
  The Scottish Committee of the Council on Tribunals believes that it would be better, however, in order to encourage public confidence in regional planning authorities and their handling of applications, for the requirement that they appoint a Secretary of State-approved reporter to be spelled out in statute. We are content to accept this recommendation and to move the necessary amendment.
  Mr. George Younger: I accept what the Minister said, and I am grateful for his explanation.
  I must confess that I was puzzled by the amendment since it appeared to me from a reading of the complicated references in three different pieces of legislation that it already had to be a person approved by the Secretary of State. But it is wholly desirable that it should be a person approved by the Secretary of State, and if it makes the position more clear I am in favour of the amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4

  STOP NOTICES
  Mr. McElhone: I beg to move Amendment No. 2, in page 3, line 25, leave out 'may' and insert 'shall'.
  This is a drafting amendment, the effect being to bring the wording of paragraph (b) into line with paragraph (a) of the same subsection. The change will not affect the meaning or operation of the clause.
  Mr. Younger: I am happy to accept the Minister's explanation, but I hope he will make a little more clear one other matter.
  I understand that this provision is to ensure that, where a stop notice is put on a form of activity, it naturally stops any further work being carried out but that it is designed to ensure that it does not require any workpeople who have to live on the site of their work having to evacuate their homes suddenly in the event of a stop notice. Is that the purpose of it, and nothing more than that?
  Mr. McElhone: The purpose of the amendment is to tidy up the wording of the subsection. I am advised that there is no material difference in meaning between "shall not" and "may not" in this context, and I believe that it is desirable to aim at consistency in the wording. This point was first raised in another place by Lord Selkirk. My noble Friend the Minister of State explained that, since there was no difference in meaning, it was a matter of drafting preference. But there are also virtues in consistency, and this argument would be strengthened if the House felt able to accept Amendment No. 3 proposing the deletion of subsection 2(c) of the proposed new Section 87.
  I give the assurance that it does not mean that anyone will be uprooted from his home and required to leave the area.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Mr. McElhone: I beg to move Amendment No. 3, in page 3, leave out lines 31 to 36.
  Hon. Members who were present in the Scottish Standing Committee a fortnight ago will recall that, when a similar amendment was moved there by the hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger) I undertook to give the matter further consideration. Now that I have had the opportunity to consider carefully the arguments for and against the 12-month restriction, I believe that the balance of advantage lies in its removal. Perhaps I should explain as briefly as possible for the benefit of the House and the Official Report the strong arguments in favour of limitations of this kind that were put forward in Committee.
  8.30 p.m.
  It was argued that it would be unfair for a planning authority to use a stop notice suddenly to prohibit a long-standing and continuous activity which it had previously been prepared to tolerate. In addition it could be said that, if enforcement action in such a case was considered necessary, the activity should surely be allowed to continue while any appeal against the enforcement notice was determined. In other words, the appellant should be given the benefit of the doubt until the case was decided.
  Against this, it has been argued that planning authorities must be trusted to

  1337
  act fairly and responsibly in deciding when to serve a stop notice. I know that they are reluctant anyway to use stop notices unless they are clearly justified, because the use of the notice might make them liable to pay compensation.
  The problem of intensification of an activity was also raised in Committee. What happens if an activity has begun in a small way and is then intensified to the point where the planning authority decides that enforcement action is necessary? My reply was that the Bill provided for this by enabling the planning authority to apply a stop notice to part of any activity alleged in the enforcement notice to be in breach of planning control. This power is clearly there at the end of the new Section 87(1). I argued that the extra amount of activity added on within the 12 months before the stop notice would thus be prohibited.
  However, I appreciate that there is considerable scope here for argument about the level of an activity on any particular date, and there would thus be difficulties in applying a stop notice in such circumstances. There is also the difficulty mentioned in Committee by the hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger) about someone who successfully conceals his unauthorised activity from the planning authority for 12 months and thereby escapes a stop notice. Though such cases might rarely give rise to serious consequences, I have taken his point.
  All in all, while the result may be slightly rough justice in a few cases, I am persuaded that we would have a simpler and more useful statute by removing the 12-month limitation. I have never believed that the total repository of knowledge and wisdom always lies on the Government side, and this is a case in which there has been constructive argument from the Opposition. I can see the hon. Member's arguments and I think that this amendment should be accepted.
  Mr. Younger: I thank the Minister very much for listening so carefully to the arguments that we put in Committee and for his acceptance of our entire principle in this matter. I was highly delighted that the Secretary of State had added his name to our amendment, and we are grateful to the Minister for taking notice of our argument.
  1338
  When the Minister explained in detail why he was accepting the amendment, I thought for one awful moment that he was giving reasons why he should not accept it. We on this side have even more enthusiasm for the amendment than he has. The principle is very clear—that if there is a suspected breach of planning control, that breach should be dealt with whether it happened one month, six months, 12 months, 18 months or two years ago. A breach of planning control is a breach of planning control, and it should not be condoned even if it is discovered very late in the day.
  I urge the House to accept the amendment with enthusiasm because the main safeguard here is that those who look to the Planning Acts to stop unauthorised and undesirable develpments near their homes or in places of natural beauty are entitled to feel that the regulations and actions of the planning authority can be fulfilled and enforced at all times. I am grateful to the Minister and I hope that the House will accept the amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.

Clause 5

  MISCELLANEOUS AMENDMENTS OF THE 1972 AND 1973 Acts
  Mr. McElhone: I beg to move Amendment No. 4, in page 5, line 32, at end add—
  '(b) in subsection (3), for "operations" in both places where that word occurs substitute the word "activity",
  (c) in subsection (5) leave out from "or of" to end'.
  These are minor consequential amendments to Section 166 of the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1972.
  Mr. Younger: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I did not hear you say whether we were taking two amendments together. Are we now discussing only one amendment?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Oscar Murton): We are discussing Amendment No. 4.
  Mr. McElhone: I intended to move Amendment No. 4.
  Mr. Younger: The Minister mentioned two amendments.
  Mr. McElhone: If I did so, that was incorrect. The amendment to subsection (3) deletes the reference to "operations" in Section 166 of the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1972 and inserts the word "activity", thus bringing Section 166 into line with the new version of Section 87.
  The amendment to subsection (5) is consequential on the amendment made in Committee to delete subsection (8) of Section 87 of the 1972 Act, which was originally retained in Clause 4. It removes a reference in Section 166 to Section 87(8), which will no longer exist.
  It will be remembered that in Committee I conceded an amendment to deal with contracts placed before the end of 1969, and this was the reason for these consequential changes. It was as a result of the good piece of advocacy advanced by the Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger) that we decided to accept the proposal.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Mr. McElhone: I beg to move Amendment No. 5, in page 6, leave out lines 30 to 32.
  This amendment is consequential on Amendment No. 3, which removed the 12-month limitation on the service of a stop notice to prohibit an activity in breach of planning control. While that limitation was in the Bill, it was necessary for planning authorities to know when an activity had commenced so that they could decide whether a valid stop notice could be served. Clause 5(4) gave them and the Secretary of State power to require this information from the occupier of the land. Now that the information is no longer necessary in connection with stop notices, this power can be dispensed with.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Mr. Younger: I beg to move Amendment No. 6, in page 6, line 44, leave out from the beginning to end of line 3 on page 7./
  We discussed this matter in Committee and put a great deal of advocacy behind it. The Minister has kindly said how much he admires our advocacy—
  Mr. McElhone: I was referring to the advocacy of the hon. Gentleman. I was not seeking to be general in my praise.
  Mr. Younger: I am overwhelmed by the Minister's generosity. I am
  1340
  encouraged by what he said to hope that my advocacy will again be successful. He will recall the long discussions on this subject in Committee, and hon. Members on both sides thought that our suggestion was desirable.
  The point is that the Bill as drafted provides that, when a local plan is drawn up for approval by the Secretary of State, it shall automatically cancel any previous arrangements under the old development plan, unless the Secretary of State directs that it shall be otherwise. I wish to delete that qualification. It is unnecessary to lay down any procedure for the Secretary of State to direct provisions under an old development plan to continue in force when a new local plan has been drawn up.
  In order to understand the reasons for this, we need look only at what a local new local plan is intended to do. A local plan is expected to cover either a complete area of a local planning authority or a clearly-defined part of that area. It is expected to be a comprehensive and fully-worked-out plan for the particular area to which it refers. Of course, there may be parts of the area that have been covered by an old development plan, and that old plan, or parts of it, should be continued as part of the new local plan. That is not in dispute. But surely it is extraordinary to expect a new district planning authority to come forward with a new local plan and to submit it to the Secretary of State for approval without incorporating in it any part of the old developument plan that seems to be necessary.
  Even if the local planning authority were so ill advised as to draw up a new local plan and to ignore some important part of the old development plan that should be continued, when the authority submitted the new local plan to the Secretary of State his action in looking at the submission and in deciding whether to approve it would surely be exactly what was needed to ensure that the provisions of the old development plan, if relevant, should be continued. It is perfectly open—without any such provisions being included in the Bill—for the Secretary of State to reply to a local planning authority that he had examined the new local plan and had observed that it did not include such and such provisions of the old development plan. He could propose not to approve the new plan

  1341
  until that part of the old development plan was included.
  Therefore, to include in the Bill the words that I wish to remove would be to cast doubt on the whole process of the drawing up of the new local plan and examination and approval of it by the Secretary of State. I never have believed that it is desirable to write requirements into legislation that are not strictly necessary. This is not strictly necessary if the new procedures are properly carried out by the Secretary of State and the local planning authority. Therefore, these words should be removed from the Bill.
  The Minister made quite a point in our previous discussions of the idea that there might be drawn up not a new local plan but a new plan regarding a particular feature of an area. As an example, reference was made to planning in the area of Loch Lomond.
  Since our previous debates, I have looked at this matter carefully and I am sure that the Minister has done so too. I have consulted one or two people who have been involved in planning and they entirely agree with the view I took in Committee. It is, of course, desirable that in many cases, particularly, for example, concerning the sensitive area of Loch Lomond, there should be a special study of particular activities in relation to that area. In the case of Loch Lomond the activities would be tourism, forestry and, to some extent agriculture. But that in itself has no real direct relevance to whether some parts of the old development plan should be continued in a new development plan. If it should be included, there is a perfectly good procedure whereby any such new plan is submitted to the Secretary of State, who is entitled to refuse approval if he does not like the way it is done. Surely that is the correct way that the matter should be approached.
  I have not moved at all from the position I held in Committee. It is unnecessary to have these words in the Bill, and I hope that the Minister will take this as a fairly constructive suggestion. He will lose nothing if he agrees to the amendment and leaves out the words, because every future local plan will be drawn up in good faith by the local planning authority and approved or otherwise by
  1342
  the Secretary of State and—in due course—by the regional authority as well. Therefore, there is no requirement for the extra words. They are unnecessary and should be removed.
  8.45 p.m.
  Mr. McElhone: I hope that the House will bear with me if I give a rather long explanation of this contentious point that was argued strongly in Committee. I accepted the concern and doubts expressed by the hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger) and shall try to give as full an answer as possible to the points that he has made. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) is paying a great deal of interest, as always, to this matter, but is making suggestions from a sedentary position which have nothing to do with the Bill. I always try to be fair to the Opposition and to give a full and constructive answer so that the care and attention that they have taken in Committee are at least recognised by the Government. No doubt the hon. Member will accept the validity of my arguments when I have completed my submission.
  Mr. Teddy Taylor: I hope that it will not be a 28-minute filibuster from the Minister in which he says nothing. The amendment so ably moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger) covers a very narrow point.
  Mr. McElhone: The hon. Gentleman should not do an injustice to his hon. Friend the Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger). The hon. Member for Cathcart has a great deal of difficulty keeping a dangerous and mixed crew in order. He has adopted a Captain Bligh stance, but I do not see the hon. Member for Ayr as a Mr. Christian. He takes an independent stand on these matters. Last night, the hon. Member for Cathcart said that I was in a constructive mood. It is silly that he should counter that fair comment before he has heard my speech on this amendment.
  Mr. Nicholas Fairbairn: We are not all simple. This is a simple point. Will the Minister just give us a simple answer?
  Mr. McElhone: I accept that we are not all simple and I am sorry that the

  1343
  hon. and learned Gentleman should make these references to his hon. Friend the Member for Cathcart. Their difference should be settled quietly in a corner.
  I wish to get back to the Bill. We are trying to get it through in a fair and constructive way and I undertook in Committee to give a full answer to the hon. Member for Ayr because of the strength of feeling that he expressed on this point.
  I undertook to take another look at the wording of Clause 5(5). Since then, I have had the opportunity to study the arguments put forward by the hon. Member for Ayr and others. It is only fair that I should say immediately that I remain convinced, after this reflection, that this amendment should not be made. The present draft of the proposed new paragraph 5A is a compromise between two principles. The first principle is that of central Government disengagement from local planning matters. The Secretary of State should really not be involved in what is primarily or entirely local business, and the paragraph marks a major step in this direction when compared with the existing Schedule 5 to the 1972 Act. The second principle is that there is nevertheless a need for care during the transition from the old to the new system of development planning. The Secretary of State, as the Minister responsible for planning in Scotland, has a responsibility here and in the last resort must be enabled to use his influence as necessary.
  I do not wish to chide the hon. Member for Ayr, but I hope that he does not come back later in the debate and complain that I have not given him an answer. I am giving him full information, but no doubt he has missed about 75 per cent. of it so far. I know that the Opposition are in some difficulty about finding alternative uses for the remainder of the evening, but I am concerned about the points raised by the hon. Gentleman and I wish to give a full and reasonable answer to the concerns that he has expressed.
  The point around which the paragraph has to balance is how the Secretary of State's interest can be preserved and brought to bear if this is necessary. We think (hat the clause gives the best
  1344
  balance between the two principles I have mentioned. I am sure the House will bear with me if I rehearse as briefly as possible the main reasons for retaining this provision of the Bill.
  The hon. Member for Ayr asked in Committee "Why bring in the Secretary of State?" I hope I can satisfy him on this point. First, the Secretary of State is planning Minister for Scotland. Second, the Secretary of State, as the Bill is drafted, will step in to save planning authorities from the unnecessary and laborious task of transcribing sections of an old development plan which they want to preserve temporarily. This provision will save money, time and effort, and should therefore commend itself to both sides of the House.
  I should have thought that that would satisfy Tory Members who say so often that the Government should save time, money and effort. This exercise will do just that. That is the opinion of everyone involved, and therefore I would have thought that these laudable principles, espoused so often by the hon. Member for Ayr and others, would have been instantly commended by them.
  Of course, we do not expect the Secretary of State to use this power frequently. It is a reserve power, to be used in consultation with, and normally at the request or instance of, the planning authority.
  Mr. Younger: Even at the request of the planning authority why does the Secretary of State need to make a direction at all? Why cannot the planning authority quite simply incorporate it in its new local plan? I do not see any difficulty in that.
  Mr. McElhone: I do not wish to be difficult, but, in planning the next possible business of the House, the hon. Gentleman must have missed a major part of my argument so far. It would be unfair to the House to restate it, but I am prepared to do so. However, I know that the hon. Member for Cathcart, for obvious reasons, would not like to hear me restate the argument. Therefore, we should look at the amendment in a slightly different way. I am trying to cope in a broad way with all the points and concerns expressed by the hon. Member for Ayr.

  1345
  If the amendment were to be carried, what would it do? First and most obviously, it would prevent the Secretary of State from using flexible and apt powers in suitable cases. The Secretary of State is the planning Minister for Scotland, and the hon. Member wishes to remove him entirely from this aspect of the local plan process. The only alternative left to the Secretary of State would be his general power to call in and approve, with modifications, a local plan. That would be much more cumbersome, lengthy and generally bureaucratic than the method envisaged in paragraph 5A.
  Secondly, the amendment means that, when any new local plan comes into effect, the old development plan is automatically cancelled. If we were dealing with a comprehensive new local plan which was designed from the outset to replace the existing development plan, no harm would be done. But as the amendment stands, the adoption of a subject plan, which may cover only one aspect of local planning interest would automatically cancel the existing development plan. But the development plan may be relatively up to date, and still with considerable relevance for local development. It can surely not be right that a subject plan covering say tourism or recreation should be allowed to wipe out automatically, without any saving power whatsoever, the provisions of a recent development plan which deal with, for example, housing, industry and transport within the same area as that covered by the subject plan.
  This is a rather complicated part of the Bill and I hope that it is now clearly understood.
  Mr. Jim Craigen: I remember that we made heavy weather of this matter in Committee. Is my hon. Friend saying that the purpose of this clause is to serve as a memory tickler to the planners at district level? The hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger) regards the clause as superfluous, but my hon. Friend says that it is important. Is my hon. Friend therefore saying that the retention of the clause will minimise delays between the district planning department and the Scottish Office? If there is one thing that bedevils planning, it is the extent of buck-passing between the districts and the Scottish Office.
  Mr. McElhone: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention. What he says is always considered and responsible, and always carries a great deal of logic.
  Mr. Craigen: Based on experience.
  Mr. McElhone: My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mr. Craigen), a prominent councillor in Glasgow Corporation for a number of years, contributed a great deal to the planning processes in that local authority. I am most grateful for the way he has described the situation.
  In trying to help the hon. Member for Ayr and other hon. Gentlemen who are deeply interested in the Bill, and who perhaps wish to go home when our consideration is completed, 1 was trying to put it another way by saying that if the amendment was carried a local authority would have two choices. It could cancel the old development plan, however useful some parts of it might be, if a new subject plan was made. Alternatively, it could spend considerable time and effort transferring parts of the old plan into the new plan, where it could be subject to public objections and inquiries all over again.
  One thing that we want to correct in local authority planning—this bears out the cogent point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Maryhill—is to save time and unnecessary bureaucracy. All hon. Members who have been involved in the difficulties that Glasgow had in planning new comprehensive development areas, such as the hon. Member for Cathcart, will know that there is a great need to simplify planning procedures. Strangely enough, I have always accepted that there is a degree of common sense and logic in most of the arguments put forward by the hon. Member for Ayr, although his effort last night was unworthy of his high standards—but we all have our weaknesses. He would be the first to accept that if the Secretary of State has flexibility of control, and if we can in some way help the local authorities and prevent them from incurring more expenditure and using a great deal of time and precious labour, we should do so.
  I am very surprised at the attitude adopted by the hon. Member for Ayr, which appears to be contrary to what we heard from him when he was piloting

  1347
  through the House the Bill to reorganise local government in Scotland.
  Either of the courses that I have outlined would be undesirable. Therefore a means of saving parts of the existing development plan is needed. Part of subsection (5) of the new clause which the hon. Member for Ayr has moved will be a positive help to authorities. Where the district council comes up with a local plan ready for adoption, it will think twice before adopting it if the result is an automatic and irrevocable loss of the entire old development plan as it relates to the original area.
  The hon. Member for Ayr perhaps did not have the experience that we had in Glasgow when we faced tremendous planning problems. When we consider the amount of time and money spent in preparing the many plans for Glasgow's comprehensive development areas—speaking from memory I think that there were 26 comprehensive development area plans—we see that these plans involve the transfer of large numbers of people to outlying municipal housing estates and transferring a great deal of industry.
  On the question of Loch Lomond, I accept that the hon. Member for Ayr may well have consulted local authorities which have a different point of view from that of the Government, but I hope that he would accept that at the end of the day two things should happen in planning: it should be flexible, and it should save as much time and as much money as possible because of the tremendous cost to the rates and taxes and all the work that planning involves, especially when dealing with an area such as Loch Lomond or a comprehensive development area in Glasgow.
  Mr. Younger: I thank the Minister for the excellence of his reply and for giving way. I feel so satisfied with his reply that I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
  9.1 p.m.
  Mr. Mick Buchanan-Smith: I should like to raise a point which I hope the Minister will
  1348
  deal with. It covers a point that the Bill will apply to once it becomes law. My question is related to Clause 3 on the subject of appeals. I did not have the benefit of serving in Committee on the Bill. One point is causing widespread concern to my part of Scotland, particularly to the town of Banchory in the north end of Kincardineshire. I have written to the Scottish Office about this problem, but perhaps the Minister can deal with it and explain how he sees these matters in relation to the Bill.
  I refer to the proposals announced by the South of Scotland Electricity Board to carry out exploratory drilling for uranium in various parts of Scotland. One of the areas specified in the announcement is Banchory. The question of the disposal of nuclear waste was raised in Committee, but I want to deal with the question of drilling for uranium.
  I want the Minister to consider the point from several aspects. I understand from what was said in Committee and from answers to Questions in the House that the drilling, whether for exploratory purposes or for the disposal of waste, will be subject to normal planning procedures. That will apply whether it is a local authority seeking to bury waste or the electricity board seeking to drill for uranium.
  Under the appeal procedures there will be an opportunity for the electricity board on the one hand or the person on whose land the drilling is taking place to appeal to the Secretary of State about the original planning authority decision, and that is right. My point, however, does not relate to the individual owner or to the authority. I refer to the general public interest.
  A number of representations have been made to me by individuals in the area who have very deep feelings about drilling in furtherance of the use of nuclear products. There are those who have a deep concern about the environment of the area and the effect of such drilling upon it, and I stress that those people may not have direct interests as proprietors or parties involved.
  What are the rights of the individuals whose interests I have described and which are of a general nature under the Planning Acts? Will they be entitled

  1349
  to object to the proposals that have been put forward by the South of Scotland Electricity Board? In the event of their objections being overruled, what opportunity will such individuals have to put their case or to appeal against the regional authority to the Secretary of State for Scotland?
  I have raised a sensitive issue about which the Scottish Office and the Minister are aware. I raise the matter to obtain information from the Minister. I hope he will recognise that this is an issue about which many individuals feel deeply and about which they are very sensitive. I hope he will describe what rights my constituents have. My constituents and I will be grateful for any assurance that they will have rights under the Planning Acts, and particularly the right to appeal to the Secretary of State. I shall appreciate any help that the Minister can give and that I can pass on to my constituents.
  9.7 p.m.
  Mr. William Small: We have come to a sensitive area, and it is unrealistic to bring up matters of this kind in the House without notice. The Minister has described the incunabula of the Bill which recognises the plesiomorphic in its content. To that degree the Minister should have had legal advice from the Opposition about the legal connotations. The nature of the discussion has turned to the disposal of or the probing for uranium. That is a separate subject and I do not think that the Minister should reply at all.
  9.8 p.m.
  Mr. McElhone: My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Garscadden (Mr. Small) is always helpful to Ministers, and tonight he has made a valid point.
  Mr. Iain MacCormick: Are we working our way backwards through the Bill or are we still going forwards?
  Mr. McElhone: Some parts of the hon. Member's comments are best left unanswered. He is welcome to take part in the debates.
  The hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Buchanan-Smith) raised an issue that is causing a great deal of concern, not only in his own area but in other parts of South Ayrshire and in Scotland as a whole—perhaps even in the area that the hon. Member for Argyll
  1350
  (Mr. MacCormick) is representing for a short time.
  Mr. MacCormick: Is the Minister saying that Argyll is being considered as an area to be used for the dumping of nuclear waste?
  Mr. McElhone: I am saying nothing of the kind. I have enough problems with the colleges of education and other related problems.
  Mr. Fairbairn: As the Minister responsible for education, perhaps the hon. Gentleman can assist us. Will he tell the House what plesiomorphic means?
  Mr. McElhone: Not without notice. I shall not even attempt to do that. We all accept that my hon. Friend the Member for Garscadden adds light to the House. Even when there is levity in his remarks, if one studies them in Hansard one can understand his logic. Anyone who studies the comments of my hon. Friend will appreciate that there is a great deal of logic in what he says. He may not say it in English, but that does not detract from his logic. After all, I heard on the radio today about the great dearth of interest in the classics in secondary schools in England and Wales. As a number of Opposition Members were educated in England, perhaps they could help my hon. Friend the Member for Garscadden—but not tonight, because I wish to move on and to make progress.
  Mr. Teddy Taylor: I am glad to hear that the Minister is anxious to make progress. If he makes very quick progress, it may be possible for us to discuss tonight the vital subject of unemployment in Scotland, about which we know that he and many other hon. Members are greatly concerned.
  Mr. McElhone: I am sorry, but I do not wish to be diverted on to the problems of unemployment in Scotland during the debate on this Bill. I accept that it is a very serious matter for the people of Scotland, and it is something about which we should all be concerned. The hon. Gentleman has intervened in the debate on this Bill in a totally unnecessary way. He is wasting time and has continued to waste time this evening with remarks from a sedentary position, when all of us know that I have been attempting for some considerable time to bring

  1351
  an end to the debate on this very important Bill.
  I have already said that planning should be dealt with expeditiously and with as little bureaucracy as possible. This attempt by the hon. Member continually to intervene and to continue with this time-wasting exercise is disrupting the progress of our legislation. He has been doing it in a very unconstructive way, as is so typical of him.
  I had a great deal of difficulty in trying to calm down the aggression coming from the hon. and learned Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Mr. Fairbairn) and going towards the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor), who then got into another battle with the hon. Member for Ayr (Mr. Younger). The private battles that continually take place within the Conservative Party should be left outside the House.
  I am attempting to give a constructive and helpful reply to the points made by the hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns. I am sorry that he was not a member of the Committee on the Bill. He tends always to serve on Committees on Bills that have a Scottish character. I am sorry that the overthrow of the dynasty of North Angus and Mearns has meant that he is now resigned to reclining on the Back Benches and doing his best to put on the best face possible. I am pleased to see that after returning from the Bahamas, he has taken a close interest in a constituency matter.
  Mr. Buchanan-Smith: I have never in my life been to the Bahamas.
  Mr. McElhone: I beg the hon. Gentleman's pardon. I understand that it was Bermuda. I am glad that it was some distance from North Angus and Mearns and from the problems of nuclear waste.
  Mr. Fairbairn: As the Minister seems to know nothing about geography, English and the classics, should he not resign from being in charge of education?
  Mr. McElhone: A great deal of the nonsense that comes from the hon. and learned Gentleman has meant that a number of my constituents are now languishing a little longer in the care of Her Majesty. Whatever damage I am inflict-
  1352
  ing, I am certainly not ensuring that taxpayers' money is wasted in Her Majesty's prisons.
  Mr. MacCormick: Is it the case that the colour of the Minister's tie reflects the demand of another organisation for his resignation?
  Mr. McElhone: It would be out of order for me to drift into the debates of the Orange Lodge as to my position. I am prepared to debate the position of the Orange Lodge. However, the hon. Gentleman makes a pertinent point—however irrelevant it is. He should be careful to note that the statements that are aggravating that particular organisation have the full support—
  Mr. Buchanan-Smith: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am the only other Member who has spoken in the debate so far, and I raised a specific point affecting my constituents as to the working of the Bill. Is it in order for the Minister to go off on this tour of the world and of different organisations, which he seems to think he has a vicarious responsibility for and interest in but which, by his own conduct, he has demonstrated that he does not have? Is it in order for him to do that and to seek not to answer the fair points put by hon. Members?
  Mr. Speaker: Order. It would be dangerous for me to say what is fair in a Minister's answer. As long as it relates to Third Reading, I shall be satisfied, even if I am the only one.
  Mr. McElhone: I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker. I was attempting, with the great help of your predecessor in the Chair, to reach a conclusion on Third Reading of the Bill. It is unfortunate that hon. Members have chosen to make spurious points of order. Whatever attempts the hon. Members for Cathcart and North Angus and Mearns are making, if they share the same concern I leave to them.
  I want to answer the point made by the hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns regarding nuclear waste.
  Mr. Buchanan-Smith: The point I made did not concern nuclear waste. Did not the Minister listen to my speech? I was concerned particularly about the

  1353
  question of drilling for uranium by the South of Scotland Electricity Board, which is a quite different issue.
  Mr. McElhone: If the hon. Gentleman will be patient, I shall come to that point. I want to be fair and to keep within the scope of the Bill. It is important to keep within the scope of the Bill. I see no reason for extraneous points of order which are totally unrelated to progress in this House on more serious subjects. If the Opposition want to filibuster, so be it.
  In Committee on the Bill—not on any other Bill to do with education or any thing else—this point was made by the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. Monro). The hon. Gentleman, as I originally stated some time ago in trying to give an answer, referred to the concern which has been expressed about nuclear waste and drilling in parts of his constituency or areas adjoining it. The hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns referred to the South of Scotland Electricity Board carrying out drilling, the possibility of appeals and the rights generally of his constituents. I was trying to be helpful to the hon. Member in repeating the main points of the argument in Committee. I have attempted to reply this evening in similar vein to my reply in Committee. It is worth noting that I sent a letter to the hon. Member for Dumfries on almost the same subject and that in Committee the hon. Gentleman paid tribute to the Government.
  The planning authority will decide whether planning permission should be given or is needed. If there is a dispute, the matter can be referred to the Secretary of State. I can only restate the point made by the hon. Member for Dumfries. I hope that I quote him correctly as I do not have a copy of the Committee proceedings. The hon. Gentleman and other Opposition Members accepted that, as power rested with locally-elected representatives, that was a great comfort. The same applies to North Angus and Mearns, and no doubt the hon. Gentleman will take great comfort from that.
  The hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns rightly pressed me about the general rights of individuals. Both he and I know that the question of drilling, either by the South of Scotland Electricity Board or by others who wish to
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  bury nuclear waste, has been highlighted by a great deal of newspaper comment and by demonstrations throughout the country. Individuals may make representations to the district and regional planning authorities, but there are no rights of appeal unless—this is very important —they have been refused planning permission. Ultimately, however, the Secretary of State could call in the application.
  Mr. Buchanan-Smith: I am grateful for that helpful and constructive reply. To put it beyond peradventure, would the Secretary of State be prepared to listen to any representations from local individuals not directly affected at the time of hearing of the appeal? This is the kind of reassurance which I think would be useful. Although I appreciate that those of whom I am thinking may not have legal status as applicants, would they be able to make representations and would the Secretary of State listen to them?
  Mr. McElhone: It would be only right and proper on a matter of such deep concern that people's rights should be safeguarded as fully as possible if their concerns were not met at the local planning level. I feel some difficulty in committing my right hon. Friend, but I think it is fair to say that he would do so. That is going a tremendous way—
  Mr. Craigen: Surely, whatever interests the hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Buchanan-Smith) has in mind could equally make an approach to the local planning authority to be heard so that they could state their case. It seems to me that the hon. Member has raised an important point. I know that he is mainly concerned about uranium exploration, but we will be faced more and more with disputes over test boring for the disposal of radioactive waste. No matter how reassuring it is to the local people that they will have the first say, but maybe not the final say, it seems to me that the Secretary of State will be faced with an inordinate number of appeals, because there cannot be two winners in this business.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Is the hon. Gentleman interrupting?
  Mr. Craigen: I have finished, Mr. Speaker.
  Mr. Speaker: I thank the hon. Member.
  Mr. McElhone: Just by a short head.
  My hon. Friend was simply saying that there could not be two winners, but he raised an extremely important point, and we should treat it as such. I am sorry that we have had these unfortunate interventions, which took away from the seriousness of the position. I hope that no hon. Member, particularly the hon. Member for Cathcart, will accuse me of not attending to this serious point and somehow or other of wasting the time of the House, precluding the hon. Gentleman from having a debate on some other matter on which he seems to be an expert.
  Mr. Fairbairn: This is an important matter of principle. It does not matter whether it involves boring for uranium in North Angus and Mearns, or a planning matter, but is the Minister committing the Secretary of State to allowing any person who has not a planning interest within the Act to make representations in a planning matter and planning appeal? That is the issue: is he or is he not?
  Mr. McElhone: I accept that the hon. Member for Cathcart will accuse me of exactly that. I am depending upon the good common sense of the hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns, who had some doubts about the rights of his constituents with regard to possible work by the South of Scotland Electricity Board or other borings, perhaps for nuclear waste. I said that, in a matter of deep concern such as this, the rights of the hon. Gentleman's individual constituents would be safeguarded.
  I hope that I do not sound arrogant, and I am not putting myself above any other Minister, when I say that I have bent over backwards to accommodate all hon. Members. I think that Opposition Members will agree that I have failed to meet no hon. Member, from whichever
  1356
  party, who asked for access to me as a Minister. Many hon. Members could testify to that.
  At the end of the day, the Secretary of State for Scotland is the planning Minister for Scotland. Anyone who is refused permission can appeal to him, but we hope that everything will be done in a commonsense way, so that a great deal of the time of the Secretary of State or any other Minister or official is not unnecessarily consumed.
  This has been a fairly long debate and a useful one. I have been replying to the hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns, but the debate has been prolonged by the unfortunate interruptions, albeit well-intentioned, of many Opposition Members. They were performing a useful rôle in trying to extract helpful information from the Government. I have provided a great deal of information to their benefit. I do not wish to detain hon. Members any longer than necessary, but, because some hon. Members lost sight of the important parts of the Bill during the môlée on the Opposition Benches, I think that it will be helpful if I briefly restate what the Bill is all about.
  First, the Bill removes doubts which have arisen about the law relating to the preparation and adoption of local plans. Secondly, it clarifies the right of appeal against decisions of a regional planning authority when it has called in planning applications. Thirdly, it strengthens enforcement powers under the 1972 Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act These changes are necessary to make the planning machinery work more smoothly and effectively, a laudable objective supported by all hon. Members.
  This is a useful and proper Bill to improve planning procedures in Scotland, and I hope that it will be given a general welcome.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed, with amendments.

FROZEN BEEF AND VEAL
9.27 p.m.
Mr. Robert Hicks: I beg to move,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Agricultural Levy Reliefs (Frozen Beef and Veal) Order 1977 (S.I., 1977, No. 76), dated 19th January 1977, a copy of which was laid before this House on 28th January, be annulled.
The principal reason for our wishing to draw this matter to the attention of the House is that the order has fairly wide implications, as it affects the whole principle of imports of meat from thira countries when there is surplus capacity and surplus production within the EEC or the United Kingdom itself.
The provisions outlined in the order arise from the European Council Regulation 3167/76, which was agreed on 21st December 1976. This requires our Ministry of Agriculture to allocate and generally administer the United Kingdom share of the quota for levy-free import of frozen beef and veal. I understand that the regulation took effect on 29th January this year. This thus provides the House with a timely opportunity to discuss the important and sensitive issue of attempting to obtain the correct balance between supply of and demand for beef and veal and their associated products, and in particular-whether sufficient attention is being given by United Kingdom producers of livestock to producing the right kind of balance of all the various types, cuts and forms of beef required by both the domestic consumer, as fresh meat, and the trade, with its different needs for beef suitable for manufacturing and processing purposes.
I appreciate that any change in emphasis cannot be achieved immediately and that I am speaking in the context of a 10-to-15-year development period. However, that does not alter the fact that the Minister is seeking our approval for a scheme of frozen beef and veal imports from third countries free of levy and that this beef is for the United Kingdom meat manufacturing industries' immediate requirements.
We must consider the foreign aid aspect, since the imports concerned are from underdeveloped countries, particularly Botswana, Kenya, Madagascar and
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Swaziland. We realise that the export of beef and veal is a key feature of their economies. We do not want to prejudice their development or to give the impression that we are trying to hinder their export of a vital commodity. We certainly have no objection to this important aspect, particularly since the products are required by the United Kingdom national market.
Nevertheless, the underlying consideration is that, within the EEC and the United Kingdom, there is a surplus production of beef and a surplus capacity to produce. We currently consume 1·17 million tons of beef a year, 80 per cent. of it from domestic production. Of the rest, 14 per cent. comes from other EEC countries, primarily the Republic of Ireland. Of the remaining 6 per cent. or so, the major exporter to us is Botswana, which sends just over 1 per cent. of our annual requirements.
Probably between 14 and 18 per cent. of our supplies of beef are required for manufacturing and processing. Exports from the countries that I have mentioned provide this necessary market with the kind of beef that it requires. However, there is a surplus production of beef within the EEC and within this country. Figures provided to me by the Ministry at the end of last week confirm that within the United Kingdom about 3,600 tons of beef are in intervention, unsold. The figure for the EEC as a whole is 265,000 tons. Unfortunately, the surplus production and the requirements of this section of the meat processing and manufacturing industry do not match up. The majority of the beef in intervention is not suitable for manufacturing and processing purposes. It comes largely from steers and heifers from our own national herd, and that which is imported from Denmark and Ireland comes from similar types of animal.
At present, the only meat that we ourselves produce which is suitable for manufacturing and processing is the cull cow, the old cow beef. For obvious reasons, the meat from those cows does not always end up in the particular outlet that I am suggesting. On many occasions, they are fattened at the end of their lives for the obvious reason that the farmer can get a higher rate from the market for those between 2 cwt. and 3 cwt. That probably represents an increase to the

1359
farmer of between £30 and £45 per animal.
In debating this instrument this evening, we are seeking to draw the Government's attention to the need for the United Kingdom somehow to gear its production so that we are able to produce a higher quantity of meat of limited fat content that is suitable for the manufacturing and processing sector. What is required is the very lean meat capable of being processed and able to withstand the heat process to which manufactured meat is subjected.
The purpose in our praying against the order is to provide the House, and the Minister in particular, with the opportunity of saying a word about the Government's attitude in respect of a very important sector of the meat-consuming industry which also has implications for the domestic producers. Can the Minister say, in particular, what action his Department has taken in respect of this sector? Can he say whether discussions are taking place with the trade, the Milk Marketing Board and other interested organisations and bodies?
We are debating the principle of imports of a product from third countries in respect of which we are also producing certain surplus capacity and have extensive reserves at home. I am sure the Minister will agree that the implications that follow from the provisions contained in the order should be the subject of close Government scrutiny.
It is not my object to go through all the trials and tribulations which have faced the United Kingdom livestock producer during the past two or three years. I am sure the Minister will agree that, since the manufactured meat sector takes between 14 per cent. and 18 per cent. of all the beef consumed in this country, it is important that the Government should at least give close examination to the possibility of adopting some kind of system whereby we might encourage the domestic production of the kind of meat required by the manufacturing and processing meat industry.
The Opposition have no objection to this order. We realise the significance of frozen beef and veal to the economies of the exporting countries concerned. But we would welcome an informal and pos-
1360
sibly rather guarded statement from the Minister indicating how the Government see over the next 10 or 15 years our achieving this correct balance between the supply of meat and the demand for meat from all sections of the meat industry, and for beef and veal especially.
9.41 p.m.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. E. S. Bishop): The House is grateful to the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Hicks) for the responsible tone of his speech. It may be that he ranged a little wider than the scope of the order. However, what he said was relevant to this discussion because, while we are continuing schemes which have been a feature of previous years, it is in order for hon. Members and the industry outside to have allayed any fears or doubts which they may have about their effect on our own market.
I want to make a few remarks about the purposes of the order. In it, we are concerned with the continuation of powers which previously have been notified to the House. My right hon. Friend made a statement to the House on 23rd December of last year in which he referred to the import regime and the possibilities of the GATT quota.
I should explain that the quota which we operate in the United Kingdom is part of a wider EEC quota. The Community has for many years admitted a specific quantity of frozen beef from third countries free of the variable levy which is otherwise applicable to beef imports. The size of the quota is bound in GATT. When the Community was enlarged in 1973 by the accession of the United Kingdom, Ireland and Denmark, the quota was increased to take account of the requirements of the new member States. It now stands at 38,500 tonnes a year for the whole Community. This quantity is divided out between the member States at the beginning of each year by a decision of the Council of Ministers in proportion to each country's requirement for imports. This requirement is measured principally by the quantities of beef actually imported by each country over a recent series of years—about three years. Because of our historic position as a beef importer, the United Kingdom normally secures the largest share. Our total share for 1977 is 12,750 tonnes.

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The overall size of the quota is hardly significant in relation to total production either here or in the Community as a whole. This is possibly reassuring to the hon. Gentleman, although I do not doubt that he will want more than that. The 38,500 tonnes compares with annual production in the EEC of between 6 and 6½ million tonnes. Our own production is in the region of 1 million tonnes: our quota share is 1·3 per cent. of this. Because of the Community's GATT obligations, imports under the quota have been allowed to continue without interruption over the past three years, even though there have been general restrictions on importing beef during this period. In other words, the GATT quota has been unaffected by the application of the safeguard clause. This has involved no risk to the level of market prices generally or the level of returns to Community cattle producers because of the small quantities involved.
Nevertheless, the scheme is, in our view, useful. It has been particularly valued by our importers during the period of restrictions on imports, since it has enabled them to keep alive their links with third country supplies. This is a modest scheme of some importance. It has, in a sense, been their lifeline for the past three years. But in more normal times also it is a useful basic source of supplies of the kind of beef which cannot be produced in the Community. The beef which comes to us from Australia or Argentina, for example, is from leaner cattle than those produced within the Community, and is suitable for different purposes.
I have explained the general significance of the quota, for us and the EEC as a whole. I will turn now to the details of the scheme. I have said that the Council of Ministers decides the division of the quota between member States. The Council also settles certain basic rules of the scheme, such as that the normal Customs duty should apply to imports under the quota; and that the Commission may make recommendations for a revision of the allocation between member States, if appropriate, on the latter part of the year. Apart from this, however, each member State is left free to administer the scheme, and to devise a system for allocating its share of the quota
1362
in a way consistent with its own legal and administrative system.
We have now been operating the scheme in the United Kingdom for about four years, since we joined the Community, and we do not intend to make any radical changes for 1977 in the system which has worked satisfactorily in earlier years. Many tariff quotas are operated on the "greyhounding" system, that is to say, the quota is declared open on a certain date and can then be taken up by importers on a first-come first-served basis until the total quantity available has been exhausted.
For the frozen beef quota we have decided against this system because the total quantity available is so small in relation to total requirements and might easily be taken up by one or two large importing companies very early in the year. Instead, the basis we have adopted is preallocation—that is, specific shares in the quota are allocated in advance, at the beginning of the quota period, and those who receive allocations are then free to use them as and when they wish, up to the end of the quota period.
The major part of the quota is allocated to individual beef importing companies on the basis of their recorded imports of third country beef and veal during a certain reference period. For 1977 we are allocating 9,000 tonnes out of the 12,750 tonnes in this way. Then each year a smaller quantity—not more than a third of the total United Kingdom share—is allocated to those Government Departments which are involved in large-scale catering. This gives the taxpayer some direct benefit from the quota. For 1977, we are setting aside 3,700 tonnes for the use of these Departments.
The details of these arrangements are agreed in consultations between the Ministry of Agriculture, trade representatives and representatives of the Departments concerned.
Particularly full consultations were held before the arrangements for 1976 and 1977 were finally settled. This was necessary because the restrictions and the various special import arrangements introduced since 1974 have influenced patterns of trade. And these special factors had to be taken into account. The outline of

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the arrangements is clearly described in the order.
The hon. Member for Bodmin has rendered a service to the House by drawing attention to some of the misgivings that might arise. I hope that my comments about the scheme will give the hon. Gentleman some assurance. However, I shall say a little more about the subject in order to assure the hon. Gentleman and the country that the situation is satisfactory.
The hon. Gentleman drew attention to the current situation of the beef market and pointed to proposals for changes to be made in the beef import arrangements to come into effect on 1st April. He argued that we might be moving too far in the direction of relaxing import restrictions when the market apparently is still uncertain. I would remind the hon. Gentleman that the new arrangements for beef imports, due to come in on 1st April, were decided by the EEC Council of Ministers last December and were reported to the House by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on 23rd December and I think that they were warmly welcomed. The arrangements concerned are designed to replace the "safeguard clause"—and the various special arrangements operated under the safeguard clause. In broad outline, the new import regime will be similar to that which the Community operated till the middle of 1974; it will be based on variable levies. However, in some important respects the new scheme will give better protection to producers. As in the past, levies will be dismantled by stages when market prices rise above the guide price and imported beef is needed. But a new feature will be that levies will be increased by stages when market prices fall below the guide price; and a maximum rate of levy of 114 per cent. will be applied if market prices are below the intervention price level to curtail the volume of imports in these circumstances.
Mr. Geraint Howells: I am grateful to the Minister for seeking to put our minds at rest. May I ask what discussions he has had with the NFU or with members of the meat trade, and whether they object to these meat imports?
Mr. Bishop: I was about to come to that point. Producers have no need to be apprehensive about this arrangement, indeed, the NFU expressed itself well content with the arrangement when it was first announced. The hon. Gentleman mentions an important matter, and I am glad to give him that assurance. This should ensure that the home market is adequately protected when prices are low by the mechanism of levy and other safeguards.
I wish to seek, therefore, to reassure those hon. Members who are concerned at the changes being made in beef import arrangements that the regime to be introduced on 1st April has been carefully designed to give adequate protection to the market. It should ensure that market prices here and elsewhere in the Community cannot be undermined by imports from third countries. On the other hand, it should automatically allow imports to balance the market when prices are firm, and imports are needed. So far as the GATT quota is concerned, this is an arrangement which has continued in operation throughout the period of import restrictions, without any adverse effect on the market. As I said earlier, the quantities involved are very modest in relation to the total size of the market so that the effect on prices will be negligible. On the other hand, the quota provides access, free of levy, for a basic quantity of beef from third countries and the United Kingdom has the largest share of any EEC country of this quota.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned the effect of the import régime possibly leading to a fall in beef production. The revised import arrangements should allow us to import the beef we need without undermining production prospects here. The levy arrangements will ensure that import prices do not get out of line with domestic prices. This is an important matter. The major source of beef in the United Kingdom is the dairy herd, which is already on the upturn and is expected to increase further this year.
I have talked about the effect on the producer, but what about the effect on the consumer? That is why we are concerned with imports. The EEC import regime allows imports on to the market when they are needed to supplement home supplies. There are special provisions to cater for types of beef that

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are not produced in the EEC and the balance sheet scheme for manufacturing beef is the most important of these for the United Kingdom. It will help to meet the requirements of our processing industry.
As to the attitude of third countries to the new import régime, I mentioned just now the importance of this nominal link and I can also say that the traditional exporting countries have given a general if cautious welcome to the prospect of restoring these links. It is a cautious welcome because this is not opening the gates for a great flood of imports, by any means, but it is a nominal trickle that will be helpful to them and not unbeneficial to us. The GATT quota has been helpful in maintaining these links during the period of restrictions. Our general policy—which the industry will appreciate—is one of gradual liberalisation whilst carefully watching the effect on home producers.
As to beef prices this year, this is another factor that is difficult for anyone to predict, but in view of lower home production, market prices—underpinned by higher support levels—should continue firm.
As to the comments made by the hon. Member for Bodmin about the longer-term policies, these are outlined in our White Paper "Food from Our Own Resources". But we are still in the process of considering the Commission's proposals, and while we wish to see prices fixed at a level that will provide a fair return to efficient producers—and we think particularly of our own producers when we talk about efficiency—we are concerned that due account will be taken of the need to contain inflation and structural imbalances. This was an important point that was made by the hon. Member for Bodmin.
One thinks of the situation and the changes and difficulties over the last few years since the debate in 1974 when we were not without difficulties, and of the beef premium scheme. It is useful that the Commission has proposed a continuation of the beef premium scheme into the 1977–78 marketing year, pending a fundamental review of beef support arrangements. But we shall have to consider what would be an adequate period of extension in this context. We are in the
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middle of the Community agricultural support and price negotiations now.
I hope that what I have said will help to reassure the hon. Member for Bodmin. I know of his deep concern for farmers in his constituency. I am also pleased to see the hon. Member for Cardigan (Mr. Howells) here tonight, because I know of his interest in these debates. I am sure that he is here to listen to what can be done for his constituents.
I assure the House that we shall do what we can to keep the balance of the market and demand under continual review. The House will be aware that on many occasions we have made known our views on surpluses and have also made clear our insistence on the rôle to be played by the United Kingdom producer in supplying the needs of the Community.
If the order were to be annulled, we should have to stop licensing imports for admission free of levy under the quota and it would be regrettable if we were no longer able to derive the benefit of this beef. I hope that I have persuaded the House that those who have misgivings about the order should withdraw their Prayer and allow the order to continue in operation. I particularly thank the hon. Member for Bodmin for giving me an opportunity to give assurances that I hope will be useful to the industry
Mr. Hicks: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

PROCEDURE
Ordered,
That the Standing Order of 15th June 1976 relating to the nomination of the Select Committee on Procedure be amended, by leaving out Mr. David Marquand and inserting Mr. Phillip Whitehead.—[Mr. Snappe]

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS (JOINT COMMITTEE)
Ordered,
That the Standing Order of 10th December 1975 relating to the nomination of the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments be amended, by leaving out Mr. Martin Flannery and inserting Mr. Tom Litterick.—[Mr. Snape.]

EXPENDITURE
Ordered,
That the Standing Orders of 18th November 1974 and 8th December 1975 relating to the nomination of the Expenditure Committee be amended by leaving out Mr. Robin F. Cook and Mr. Christopher Price and inserting Mr Ron Lewis and Mr. Alexander Lyon.—[Mr. Snape]

TONBRIDGE AND MALLING (ELECTORAL ARRANGEMENTS)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Snape.]
10.0 p.m.
Mr. John Stanley: I wish to raise on the Adjournment the Home Secretary's proposals in regard to the electoral arrangements for the district council of Tonbridge and Malling in my constituency. We have achieved the unusual situation in Ton-bridge and Mailing of unanimity among all political parties on agreeing the most desirable and fair system of electoral arrangements for Tonbridge and Malling and, at the same time, unanimity in disagreeing with the proposals so far approved by the Home Secretary. This is, therefore, a straightforward issue of the district of Tonbridge and Mailing versus the Home Secretary.
It may be helpful to the Minister who is to reply if I summarise the events so far. In December 1974 the district council's draft scheme for the electoral arrangements was submitted to the Local Government Boundary Commission. I stress again that it had the total agreement of all political parties and was submitted only after the most extensive local consultation.
In February 1975 the Commission replied with its own draft proposals and made five material changes from the draft scheme which the council had submitted. The first change was that the village of Eccles, now a separate ward, should be joined into a combined ward with the village of Aylesford. Secondly, it proposed that the representation of the Blue Bell Hill ward should be increased from one councillor to two. Thirdly, it proposed that the representation of the Cage Green ward should be decreased from
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three to two councillors. Fourthly, it proposed that the representation of the Judd ward should be reduced from three councillors to two. Lastly, it proposed that the representation of the Oast ward should be decreased from two to one.
All these changes were strongly objected to by the district council and by all the political parties. As a result, the Commission decided to hold a local inquiry into the electoral arrangements in September 1975. After the inquiry, the Commission published a report in January 1976 and decided not to make any material concessions on the points of issue between it and the district council. The Commission then submitted its final proposals to the Home Secretary and, very much to our regret, he decided to endorse the Commission's proposals in full, thereby rejecting all the alternatives that the council had previously agreed.
There are two major issues of principle on which the council feels very strongly. The Minister will recognise that in these circumstances it is generally not unusual for there to be substantial disagreement between the individual political parties within a local authority area. In Tonbridge and Mailing there has been total agreement between the political parties on what represents, politically and democratically, a fair system that most acurately reflects the individual community interests on warding. We hoped that when there had been such a clear expression, democratically and locally, by all parties, it could have been favourably considered by the Commission and the Home Office. On this occasion it was not.
The second area of principle on which the council feels strongly is that in such circumstances one would imagine that there would need to be compelling reasons for the Home Secretary to reject the local proposals in favour of some of his own. It is a matter of regret that so far we have not received any substantive reasons for the Home Secretary's decision on our electoral arrangements and why he has rejected the proposals put forward by the council. The Minister may be able to repair that omission tonight.
I ask the the Minister to reconsider the electoral arrangements with particular regard to three outstanding matters about which, it has advised me today, the council feels most strongly. The first, is that

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Tonbridge itself feels, legitimately in my belief, that it has had a raw deal as a result of the new arrangements. At present, the ratio of electors to councillors is exactly the same in the Tonbridge part of the district as it is in the rest of the district. But under the scheme which the Home Secretary wishes to follow Ton-bridge is to be significantly under-represented relative to the rest of the district.
Under the Home Secretary's scheme, the balance of the constituency, which is made up of Mailing, Hildenborough and Hadlow, will have a ratio of 1,234 electors per councillor, but for Tonbridge there will be a ratio of 1,428 electors per councillor. In other words, in contrast with the present equality of ratios in the area, Tonbridge is clearly to be underrepresented compared with the rest of the district.
The council feels that there is a strong case for preventing the reduction in Ton-bridge's representation by two councillors by making certain that the reduction is in any case no more than one, and that at least one of the two wards where membership is being reduced from three councillors to two should be retained at three councillors. My advice from the council today concerning these two wards says:
"Whilst it would be difficult on the basis of the 1977 electorate to justify 3 members for Judd ward, there would appear to be a good case for retaining 3 members for the Cage Green Ward."
My first point, therefore, is that the Secretary of State should consider retaining three members for the Cage Green ward, thereby retaining a reasonable equality between the ratios of electors to councillors throughout the whole district.
The second point that I ask the Home Secretary to reconsider is the proposal that Oast ward should have a reduction in councillors from two to one. "Oast" is an acronym for four separate villages with delightful Kentish names—Offham, Addington, Stansted and Trottiscliffe. We have very strong feelings about the reduction of representation for the Oast war, for two reasons.
The first reason is that it is far and away the largest area geographically in the district. It covers 2,309 hectares, and it is substantially larger than any other ward. By and large, we think that if there is a particularly large ward geographically it tends to justify erring on the
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side of more councillors rather than fewer. The second justification for retaining the Oast ward representation at two councillors is that, if its representation is reduced to one, Oast will be conspicuously under-represented compared with other wards.
I want to draw attention to Schedule 11(3)(2)(a) of the Local Government Act 1972, under which we are working. It states:
"The ratio of the number of local government electors to the number of councillors to be elected shall be, as nearly as may be, the same in every ward of the district or borough."
That is a clearly-stated principle. In the light of that principle, it seems hard to justify the state of affairs envisaged for the representation of Oast ward compared, for example, to that of another ward, West Mailing.
Under the Home Secretary's proposals the Oast ward, which has 1,892 electors in the 1977 electorate, will have one councillor and, therefore, a ratio of 1,892 per councillor, while the West Mailing ward, on the other hand, with 1,820 electors, will have two councillors and, therefore, a ratio of 910 electors per councillor. In other words the Oast ward, which already has more electors than West Mailing, will have fewer councillors. The ratio of electors to councillors will be nearly twice as large in the Oast ward as in the West Mailing ward.
That seems to us to be in flagrant contradiction of the very important principle in Schedule 11 to the Local Government Act 1972 that the ratio of electors to councillors throughout the wards of a district council should be the same
"as nearly as may be".
The last point on which I would be grateful if the Minister would reconsider the Home Secretary's proposals is the separation of Eccles from Aylesford. Eccles is at present a separate electoral area, and it has no wish at all to lose its individual electoral identity as a separate village and become submerged in the larger village of Aylesford.
I am glad to see that the assistant commissioner, when he published his report after the local inquiry, acknowledged the separate individual character of the village of Eccles. He said:
"It was clear from the evidence given earlier to the Commission, and at the meeting, that

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Eccles could reasonably claim to be different from Aylesford in many respects and to have its own characteristics."
There is at least a recognition here of the fact that Eccles has its own special and separate identity.
I agree that if Eccles remained separate from Aylesford it would have a small ratio of electors to councillors, a ratio of about 900. But, judging by the previous figures that I have given for West Malling, although this ratio is low it is not unacceptably low. It would also have the advantage, in democratic terms, of adhering to the wishes of the local community to retain their separate local identity.
I do not know what sort of brief the Minister of State has been given. I hope very much that he has not been provided with a brief which advises him to say that he cannot give any further consideration to the points put forward. If he has such a brief, I encourage him to discard it and to reconsider the points that I have made.
I assure the Minister of the strength of local feeling in the district of Ton-bridge and Mailing on this issue, and I assure him that it crosses all party lines. There is total political unanimity on this issue. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will agree this evening to reconsider our electoral arrangements, and I hope that when he has done so he will be able to come forward with revised proposals.
10.13 p.m.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Brynmor John):I am grateful to the hon. Member for Tonbridge and Mailing (Mr. Stanley) for a number of things this evening. First, he has raised a subject which is topical in the light of the fact that the Local Government Boundary Commission is just about starting and that this was one of the first orders in the Commission's purview. The review will embrace 36 metropolitan districts, 296 non-metropolitan districts, six metropolitan counties and 39 non-metropolitan counties in England, as well as the 32 London boroughs.
I am grateful that the hon. Gentleman has given me an opportunity to put on record the general framework within which the Commission and the Home Secretary work. I think the hon. Gentle-
1372
man will agree that he himself slipped somewhat uneasily between the Home Secretary's proposals and the Boundary Commission's proposals, so I think it right for me to set out the position.
While the Home Secretary has powers that he can exercise, and will exercise, in proper cases, we as a Parliament have put in the hands of the Boundary Commission a very onerous task precisely with the intention of distancing it from any attempted interference or any suspicion of interference for political or Executive gain. I well remember the difficulties which some Conservative Members raised when there was any suggestion that the Home Secretary was so interfering. Now, apparently, but perhaps only for tonight, it is being urged that he should further interfere.
As the hon. Member said, the Local Government Act 1972 laid down fairly precise criteria about the way in which the Local Government Boundary Commission should approach its work, although it did not lay down any precise details about the method by which it would examine these proposals. I am sure the hon. Gentleman will agree that the way in which the Commission has approached its task has been to encourage as much public discussion as possible.
I say, without any sense of flattery which sometimes accompanies contributions on an Adjournment debate, that the hon. Gentleman has certainly at all stages made articulate and eloquent pleas on behalf of the parishes in his constituency. There is no question about it that when my right hon. Friend signed the order in question he signed it in full knowledge of the representations that have been made from the district council and from many other organisations, and, not least, representations by the hon. Member for Ton-bridge and Malling.
The Commission gave notice of its intention to conduct a review on 10th June 1974, and the local council, the county council, the Member of Parliament, the parish councils, the local Press and the main political parties were informed. The idea of all this was simply to give as wide a forum as possible for the consideration of the matter and to enable the widest possible representations to be made.
So it was that the Tonbridge and Mailing District Council prepared the

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draft scheme to which the hon. Member has referred. It was presented on 1st December 1974 and it called for a 28-ward system with 54 members. When the Commission considered this, it considered comments which had been made by the district council and others and it considered at that stage that the range of elector-to-councillor ratios was so wide as to go beyond what was laid down in Schedule 11. In that light, it proposed adjustments. I shall come later to the words and discrepancies to which the hon. Member has alluded.
On 18th February 1975, the draft scheme was sent to all those who had received the original consultation letter. Their views were sought again, and such were their views that a local meeting under the assistant commissioner, whose report has been referred to, was held on 25th September 1975. It is interesting to note that this is well over a year after the original proposal, so there is no suggestion of rushing or that this matter was subjected to other than the closest scrutiny. A local meeting provided the assistant commissioner with the material for a report, and I hope that the hon. Member will acknowledge the care which was taken with this.
At that stage the Commission not only considered its own draft report but suggested modifications to the assistant commissioner. When it made this final report, it was prepared to modify even those proposals. One proposal which the hon. Gentleman has not mentioned, and which it is right to mention as an example of the way in which the Boundary Commission sought to meet legitimate local aspirations, was that which affected Oast ward. I am grateful to the hon. Member for the information that that is an acronym of the four wards concerned. As the hon. Member will know, however, in order to combat to an extent the discrepancies in the elector-to-councillor ratio, it was proposed that Stansted should be removed from the ward and should be put in with another ward so as to make it a three-parish rather than a four-parish ward. In its final report the Commission rejected that and said that, in view of the representations that it had received, the four parishes would continue to be part of the ward. Even at that stage it was flexible enough to make
1374
modifications and to put forward its final report.
Mr. Stanley: I agree with what the Minister has said, but does he not acknowledge that bringing the Stansted ward back into the rest of the Oast ward adds substantially to the under-representation of that ward if the number of its councillors is not increased from one to two?
Mr. John: I shall deal with that later. The assistant commissioner put forward alternatives and said that there were two courses open to him—to keep the ward as it was and reduce the representation to one councillor, or to reduce the ward area and the representation together.
Paragraph 15 of the report said:
"In view of the strong community ties which would be broken by our draft proposals we have concluded that we should modify them by adopting the Assistant Commissioner's alternative suggestion, even though this creates some imbalance of representation between the Oast and Wrotham wards."
There was a clear trade-off to be done if the Commission was to incorporate the suggestions.
The 1972 Act provides that the order to implement the Commission's final recommendations with or without modifications shall not be made until six weeks have elapsed from the time of the submission by the Commission. That provides an opportunity for further representations to be made, and further representations were made.
The report was sent on 12th January 1976, and it was not until 29th October 1976 that my right hon. Friend signed the order which lays down the new boundaries. Whatever else has happened, it cannot be said that my right hon. Friend has rushed this matter through without due time being given for consideration of the local points.
The hon. Member raised three matters. When dealing with the question of the weaknesses—as he sees them—of the order which was laid before the House last October, his first point was the under-representation or the reduction in representation in some wards. He mentioned in particular Judd ward, which by the sound of it should be a Labour ward.
Mr. Stanley: It was a Labour ward until May last year, when it was won for

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the first time by the Conservatives. It was the Cage Green ward that the council felt in particular should not have its representation reduced from three to two.
Mr. John: I can understand the point. The matter was considered by the Boundary Commission and it made its recommendations, which, in the light of all the facts of the case, are probably best decided by those who have studied the matter. Certainly the local inhabitants have studied it and have made their representations. The Boundary Commission devoted a great deal of care to considering the ratio of councillors to the electorate. It came to its own conclusions.
The second issue mentioned by the, hon. Member was that which involves the Oast ward. He said that one of the reasons why he opposed the proposal was the under-representation particularly because of the large geographical area that is involved. He will know, as I know, that the geographical area is not a criterion laid down by the Local Government Act, Schedule 11. The criterion which is laid down is that of population rather than area. Therefore, there cannot be overrepresentation merely in order to compensate for a geographical area, otherwise the principle of rural weighting, which a number of us took up during the passage of the Bill into law, as I seem to recollect, would have been enshrined in the new Act, whereas most people seem to think that it ought not to be.
Therefore, we come to the point of why Oast ward is so under-represented as compared with, say, West Malling. I accept that there is always some difficulty about drawing a line anywhere, but the fact is—and it seemed to be confirmed on the projections—that the faster population growth, although not such, I accept, as to right the imbalance, would occur in West Malling in the next five years. Therefore, although the hon. Gentleman may say that there is an injustice, it will not be in five years' time quite as manifest an injustice as it is now.
Secondly, wherever one draws the line on representation, there will be at least one ward which has the highest proportion of electors per councillor and one which will have the lowest proportion. The fact is that, if the situation to which the hon. Gentleman has asked me to accede were
1376
to come about, one would then have the position that the Oast ward would have one of the lowest ratios of electors to councillors, and that would cause the very problem of which the hon. Gentleman has spoken.
The third matter to which the hon. Gentleman has alluded is the Eccles ward. He has suggested that its combination with Aylesford is another matter which causes a great deal of criticism locally. He rightly says that the assistant commissioner visited Eccles and described it as an area of mostly older-type terraced properties, housing originally—I do not know whether it does now—mainly workers in the cement industry. The assistant commissioner concluded that it was clear from the evidence that
"Eccles could reasonably claim to be different from Aylesford in many respects and to have its own characteristics."
But he went on to say—this is germane to what the hon. Gentleman has said—that
"At the same time there was no very firm evidence that the electorate would be substantially greater in 1979, and indeed, the district council's figure of 950 was not seriously challenged. The case for the continued existence of Eccles as a separate ward would appear to rest rather on its individuality as a village than on any increase in numbers which might lead, perhaps, to a loss of that very characteristic. There would seem to be no valid reason for holding that the existence of a separate ward is necessarily synonymous with the individuality of a village and although Aylesford is composed of differing elements, it is in my opinion very difficult to justify the continued over-representation of the electors of Eccles on the district council, particularly in view of the under-representation of electors in the Aylesford ward which could come about by 1979."
Clearly, therefore, here again, this is not a matter to which the Boundary Commission failed to direct its attention. It directed its attention very carefully to it, in the light of all the representations, but felt unable to accept what the hon. Gentleman has said.
Mr. Stanley: Will the Minister give way?
Mr. John: I should like to conclude, I have only a minute, and I have given way. I should prefer the hon. Gentleman to have a fuller reply.
Mr. Stanley: Will the Minister be willing to receive in the Home Office an all-party delegation from the district council

1377
to represent its views directly to the Home Secretary or one of his Ministers?
Mr. John: Of course I would see any delegation. However, it is fair to say that the order was made final nearly six months ago. The fact is that I am not quite sure what it is that I would be able to do, but if the hon. Gentleman wishes to lead such a delegation I would certainly see it.
However, the point I am making is that while one cannot satisfy the locality
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as to the actual arrangements—because almost everyone is an electoral expert, not least Members of Parliament, who can draw boundaries much better than the Boundary Commission—what we need to do is to satisfy the electors—
The Question having been proposed at Ten o'clock, and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at half-past Ten o'clock.

AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
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Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Oxford.

PRIME MINISTER: SPECIAL ADVISERS
Lord SHINWELL: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether any special advisers who were employed by the Prime Minister in the previous Administration are retained by the present Prime Minister.
The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Peart): My Lords, the three special advisers who were employed in the office of the previous Prime Minister are still working there full-time. In addition, former special advisers have been employed from time to time on a fee-paid basis.
Lord SHINWELL: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that recently Mr. Haines was asked in a broadcast whether any of his erstwhile colleagues were involved, and the reply was in the affirmative? He was asked for the names and he refused to give them—and quite properly. Can my noble friend say what is the special advice that these advisers give to the Prime Minister? Can it not be contributed by members of the Civil Service, who are reputed to be the finest civil servants in the world?
Lord PEART: My Lords, my noble friend knows that there was an inquiry and a report—the Fulton Report—which recommended special advisers, and in this case they are the responsibility of the Prime Minister concerned.
Lord SHINWELL: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, judging by results, it would be to our advantage to
906
get rid of the special advisers as soon as possible? After all, we can judge only by results, and look at what is happening. Can we not rely on the Civil Service and be done with it?
Lord PEART: My Lords, I should point out to my noble friend, in relation to some of the people he has mentioned, that one of them was not a special adviser in any case; he was a temporary civil servant.

THE HOUSE OF LORDS
2.38 p.m.
Lord O'HAGAN: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they intend to abolish the House of Lords.
Lord PEART: My Lords, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has made clear, as stated in the Official Report, for 27th January, at column 1698, the Government are continuing to keep the position of this House under review. The Government will continue to assess the situation, and the need for change, in the light of events and developing opinion inside and outside Parliament.
Lord O'HAGAN: My Lords, does the noble Lord have the feeling that that sounds like a suspended sentence of death? Can he tell the House whether we can deduce from his Answer that the Cabinet do not share the enthusiasm of the National Executive of the Labour Party and Mr. Tony Benn for a Single Chamber Parliament?
Lord PEART: My Lords, the right honourable gentleman who has been mentioned was speaking for himself when he expressed his views, and the National Executive is not the Government. I have made my position quite clear on several occasions, as Lord Privy Seal and Leader of this House; I believe that this Chamber has an important role to play and a contribution to make, and it may well be that a time will come when we might want to reform some of its procedures.
Lord BLYTON: My Lords, we are not objecting to the Government keeping this matter under constant review, but does the Minister not think that the way in which the Government are treating the Lords is disgraceful? Councillors now get £16.50 a night expenses for staying in London; civil servants get £18.50. We who live in the Provinces are still on £13.50, and we have not had an increase for two and a half years. Is my noble friend further aware that this matter was sent to the Boyle Committee and that it is still boiling? We have not heard anything for years.
Lord PEART: My Lords, I do not know whether it is bubble and trouble, but all I can say is that that is another matter to which no doubt noble Lords will come on some other occasion.
Lord HALE: My Lords, can the noble Lord say on what terms Her Majesty was graciously pleased to dispose of the use of the Palace of Westminster separately as between the Lords and the Commons, and whether, in the event of the Lords being, abolished we shall be able to follow the example of the Serjeants-at-Law who, being abolished, sold Serjeants' Inn and divided up the proceeds.
Lord PEART: My Lords, my noble friend is really speculating as well.
Lord PLATT: My Lords, in view of the present state of the nation and the fact that the Government no longer represent the majority of the people, have Her Majesty's Government any plans for the immediate reform of the House of Commons?
Lord PEART: My Lords, I do not think that one should get into an argument about who represents the people. A General Election will finally decide that issue. The previous Election decided the issue, and now we have a Government and I speak for the Government. I can say no more than that.
Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEY: My Lords, could the Minister perhaps remind the right honourable gentleman Mr. Benn that somebody who once did abolish the House of Lords—Oliver Cromwell—found he could not do without it, and appointed 45 Life Peers?
Lord PEART: My Lords, I do not know whether that would be something which the present Prime Minister could do. All I am saying is that I believe in the role of this Chamber, and I believed in the original reforms, which were frustrated by a strange alliance of Right and Left.

CAPE COLOURED COMMUNITY AND THE FRANCHISE
2.43 p.m.
Lord INGLEWOOD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what representations they have recently made to the Government of South Africa to restore the franchise to the Cape coloured community.
The MINISTER of STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts): My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have not recently made representations specifically on this subject to the South African Government. The Government have, however, on numerous occasions, made clear their total condemnation of South Africa's racial policies, which deny to the majority of her citizens basic human rights, including the right to vote.
Lord INGLEWOOD: My Lords, may I ask the right honourable gentleman——
Several noble Lords: No!
Lord INGLEWOOD:—the noble Lord—whether he would agree that progress can sometimes be made by taking one step at a time, and whether he does not think that there might be some advance if he suggested that this mistake in the late 1950s, when the Cape coloured were removed from the register, could perhaps be repaired and that that might have a more immediate effect than just lecturing and abusing South Africa, which Her Majesty's Government have now done for quite a long time and achieved absolutely nothing in return?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I hope the noble Lord and my noble friend will not deprive me of the title of "right honourable gentleman", even though he persists in calling me his noble friend. In answer to the supplementary question, it is not our policy to single out particular ethnic groups in our calls for a just and peaceful solution to the problems of South Africa, but I think the noble Lord's suggestion has the merit that we would all welcome advance against apartheid in any particular and in any direction, so long, of course, as the ultimate objective of an across-the-board advance is kept clearly in mind.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON: My Lords, can the noble Lord name any country in Africa in which anybody is allowed to vote for anybody except the Government?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I do not think that exactly arises from the Question put to me by the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood. We are addressing ourselves to a serious matter of how best to attain progress against apartheid in South Africa, which is a crucial country—some would say the most crucial country—in the whole of Africa.
Lord BARNBY: My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he would not agree that both the original Question and the supplementary asked by my noble friend suggest interference with the internal affairs of another country? May I also ask him, since, as he is well aware, liberalisation is very much under consideration, or "in the works", as is said, in South Africa, whether he would not agree that too hasty an action with regard to the vote for the Cape coloured—which we all agree should have been restored long ago—might well jeopardise, or at any rate retard, dealing with the more difficult question of the urban, de-tribalised Bantu?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I do not think that, on reflection, the noble Lord would persist in thinking that to draw the attention of the South African authorities, or indeed the authorities of any other country, to basic human rights, which are essential to the wellbeing of their own people and,
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indeed, in the long term, to the peace of the world, is interference with their internal policies. As to his comments on the situation in South Africa, these are, as always, interesting but, as always, a matter for argument.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether it is not the case that Her Majesty's Government have supported resolutions on apartheid at the United Nations, which resolutions include the restoration of the vote to the coloured community, and does this not indicate clearly world opinion on this matter?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: Yes, indeed, my Lords. We have consistently supported the principle of the dismantling of apartheid in South Africa, as indeed we have supported all meaningful and practical resolutions directed against discrimination in any other country, in this respect, of course, the substantial purpose of the Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, has already been part of our efforts in the UN and, bilaterally, in what we have said to the South African authorities.
Lord VERNON: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the 2 million Cape coloured are more disadvantaged than any other group of people in South Africa? The Africans at least have their Bantustans, however inadequate they may be; the Cape coloured have nothing. They have no land, and they have been deprived of the vote, as my noble friend has said. In view of our historical responsibility for these unfortunate people, is there not a case for the Government making special representations to the South African Government on the basis suggested by my noble friend?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I think there is a case so long as, as I emphasised at the beginning, we keep firmly in mind that we do not single out any special interest, race, colour, religion or any other category for what might be interpreted by others as a discriminatory emphasis. Certainly there is a case. As to the rest of the noble Lord's question, I think he is substantially correct, to this extent at least, that in many respects the Cape coloured are more disadvantaged than even the black Africans. With

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regards to representation, for instance, it is true that they have only the bogus Representative Council, which has practically no powers; and, as he has said, they do not even enjoy the illusory advantages of the Bantustan principle, or even of the creation of a Transkei.
Lord HALE: My Lords, is the noble Lord not aware that when freedom was granted to South Africa it was granted on the express condition that within the shortest practicable period the franchise would be given to the African people, and that that assurance was repeated in the South African debate from both sides of the House and from both Front Benches?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, it is a fact that the 1907 reforms, and the Act that accompanied those reforms, contained very strong entrenched clauses. I am bound to say that I know of no comparable enactments in which the strongest entrenched clauses of this kind have survived the fact of independence.

GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS: ORGANISATION
2.50 p.m.
Lord BOOTHBY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they would now agree that the amalgamation of a number of separate Departments of State, which were working efficiently, into several huge Ministries has proved to be a costly mistake; and in particular whether the Secretaries of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, and for the Environment, have had imposed upon them a burden which no single individual can hope to bear; and whether they will take immediate steps to remedy this unfortunate state of affairs.
Lord PEART: My Lords, in considering the allocation of ministerial responsibilities, which, of course, bears directly on the structure of Government Departments, the Prime Minister takes account of
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various factors. These would include, on the one hand, the range of responsibilities that a single Minister can reason ably be expected to discharge and, on the other, the organisational and operational advantages to be gained from grouping inter-related functions within a single Department. Noble Lords may take it that the Prime Minister intends to make no changes in the allocation of ministerial responsibilities unless and until he makes an announcement to that effect.
Lord BOOTHBY: My Lords, arising out of that Answer, is the noble Lord the Leader of the House aware that the recent departmental amalgamations have resulted in both a reduction and an increase in the bureaurocracy; that they have imposed far too heavy a burden on too few and far too light a burden on too many, and that an inquiry into the machinery of Government is now urgently required in order that the transaction of the volume of public business in the modern world may be carried out more efficiently and economically?
Lord PEART: My Lords, the noble Lord must know that it was a Conservative Administration that produced the White Paper, The Reorganisation of Central Government, in 1970. I have it here and I will send it to him. It was argued then by a Right-Wing organisation that this movement towards larger Departments would lead to greater efficiency. I do not think it imposes the strains implied in the Question.
Lord BOWDEN: My Lords, are not the Government aware of the fact that constant changing of the nature of large Departments of State—and, if I may, I will give particular examples: the successive transformations of what were once the Board of Trade, the Ministry of Aviation, the Ministry of Energy and the Department of Industry which have amalgamated and split several times—has posed intolerable burdens on those responsible for them to the extent that it has made it impossible for the people supposedly responsible for policy to devote any time at all except to matters of routine administration? It seems to me that this has been a source of great weakness in Whitehall since I first met it; it has been a cause of great anxiety and

913
has imposed a great burden on the senior civil servants responsible. Cannot some steps be taken to prevent this?
Lord PEART: My Lords, I sympathise with the desire of my noble friend to see that no unnecessary extra burdens are placed on the heads of Departments and that efficiency should be encouraged and should not be frustrated. But I do not believe in the argument put forward by my noble friend. I remember that when I was involved in agriculture I believed that it was a good thing that we should have combined with Agriculture, the Ministry of Food, a larger Department, and that it would be better for policy and other reasons. I found no difficulties when administering it.
Lord AVEBURY: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord what organisational advantages have resulted from the amalgamation of Health and Social Security?
Lord PEART: My Lords, I think that we shall have to give it time before making a final judgment. I think it is important that there should be Committees in both Houses to watch carefully the procedure of Government. This is a continuing process and it is inevitable that there will be problems here and there.
The Earl of HALSBURY: My Lords, is the noble Lord the Leader of the House aware of the stricture by the noble Lord, Lord Beeching, delivered at an oration at the London School of Economics, that constant reorganisation at the top is a characteristic of a badly-managed industrial enterprise?
Lord PEART: My Lords, I never thought that he followed that advice for the railways.
Lord INGLEWOOD: My Lords, does the noble Lord believe that the old Ministry of Transport was happily at home in the Department of the Environment?
Lord PEART: My Lords, I think it was appropriate when it was part of it. It is not appropriate now.
Lord BOWDEN: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that this problem of successive reorganisation was complained
914
about by a Roman Consul named Caius Petronius? I think that the tradition of constant reorganisation has been with us for far too long.
Lord BOOTHBY: My Lords, am I to understand from the noble Lord that the Government will not even inquire into the matter?
Lord PEART: My Lords, I think that there should be, and are, Committees of the House of Commons and the House of Lords which could make recommendations. There should be vigilance on this matter. I am grateful to the noble Lord for drawing attention to it.
Lord PANNELL: My Lords, will my noble friend look at this question again? Is he aware that the expenses of this House appear on the Vote for the Department of the Environment? Would he not agree that this was a very unfortunate juxta-position?
Lord PEART: My Lords, that is another question. We shall look at that.
Lord DERWENT: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I am now asking the eighth supplementary question?
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNE-SIDE: My Lords, is it not a fact that when the alteration was made it was made in order to ensure that the smaller local authorities would find it easier to appoint better and higher paid officials? Is it not a fact that, whatever the difficulties—and there are always difficulties in new arrangements—many of the smaller local authorities have been able to operate more efficiently because they have had more efficient officials?
Lord PEART: My Lords, I am afraid that the noble Baroness is on another question.

MERCHANT SHIPPING (SAFETY CONVENTION) BILL [H.L.]
Lord ORAM: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to enable effect to be given to the International Convention for the safety of life at sea, signed in London on 1st November 1974; and for purposes

915
connected therewith. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a—(Lord Oram.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

SEXUAL OFFENCES (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
Lord BOOTHBY: My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to amend the law of Scotland relating to homosexual acts. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a—.(Lord Boothby).
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.
2.58 p.m.

AIRCRAFT AND SHIPBUILDING INDUSTRIES BILL
The MINISTER of STATE, NORTHERN IRELAND OFFICE: (Lord Melchett): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. The Bill which comes forward for Second Reading today is an old friend, and I hope that I need not spend too much of your Lordships' time in introducing it. Following the statement made by my noble friend the Leader of the House last Wednesday, and the procedural Motion passed last Thursday, noble Lords will be aware of the Government's intention to propose Amendments to the Bill at Committee stage, to delete the 12 listed ship repairing companies from Schedule 2 to the Bill. On the basis of that intention, your Lordships' House has resolved that Petitions against the Bill should not be heard, and that the Standing Orders (Private Bills) Committee's requirements for notices about petitions to be published should be dispensed with. In other words, the Bill will now proceed quickly as an ordinary Public Bill, and the 12 ship repairers will be deleted.
I do not propose to dwell on the events which have led up to this decision, which the Government have taken with great regret. It has been suggested that the Government could and should have made
916
this concession at the end of last Session. The position has changed in an important respect: the Examiners have reported that the Bill was hybrid in its ship repairing section. The Government were therefore faced with a choice. We could wait until the end of the Session, when the whole Bill would have passed on to the Statute Book under the Parliament Act and the whole summer would have been wasted in pointless hearings before a Select Committee (as the Examiners recognised in their report), or we could abandon the ship repairing sector, despite its grave problems, in order to get the aircraft and shipbuilding industries on to a firm basis now, so that they can come to grips with their pressing difficulties.
We had two reasons for resisting the deletion of ship repair. First, there was, and is, a strong industrial case for rationalising the ship repair industry in public ownership. I know that noble Lords opposite dispute that. They might not do so vigorously if they knew the pressures we have been under from some of the listed ship repairing firms not to drop ship repairing. As the Government Statement last Wednesday said, some of those firms will now seek to come into British Shipbuilders voluntarily by negotiation. Moreover, several of the vesting shipbuilding companies have ship repairing operations which will vest with them: and three of the 12 listed ship repairers now to be deleted are already publicly-owned and will be transferred by agreement to the new Corporation.
Our second reason for resisting the deletion of ship repair was a constitutional one. The elected Chamber had twice passed intact a Bill which this House sought to change in a fundamental way. Moreover the proposal to nationalise ship repairing was contained in two Election Manifestoes.
The position has changed because of the Examiners' ruling. We regret its effect on this Bill and more generally. The ruling leaves the general position on hybridity in an unsatisfactory and uncertain state. The implications for future legislation will have to be considered carefully and we are now doing that. But we have to deal with the here and now. The realistic assessment we had, with great regret, to make was that unless we deleted ship repair, the Bill would be

917
this was a unique and unprecedented situation. They then dealt with this particular question by bringing in Amendments.
However, during the painful passage of the Bill through this House, the Government were repeatedly warned by an ever-increasing crescendo of voices from all sides of the House that the Bill was demonstrably hybrid on more than one count. They were implored therefore to remove the ship repairing section which was anyway objectionable and for which in our view no logical, convincing case has been made. Seen from this side of the House, the Government's reaction appeared to be a witch's brew of arrogance, obduracy and wishful thinking in the face of these suggestions. This attitude persisted throughout the "ping-pong" session which brought the last Session to a long-delayed and exhausted close towards the end of last year.
Small wonder, then, that there was consternation when the Bill was reintroduced in November, the Clerks sought to refer the Bill to the Examiners and when the leader of another place again suspended Standing Orders, notwithstanding all the previous protestations in May. Thus, it was inevitable under the doctrine of community between the two Houses that the Clerks would refer the Bill to the Examiners before our Second Reading here today.
I suggest that it is misleading—to use the kindest possible word—to allege that this House has used what Mr. Varley back in May light heartedly called a "diverting Parliamentary ploy" in order to filibuster or frustrate the passages of this Bill. This, incidentally, is only the 13th day on which this House has been considering this Bill, so in any case it has not been all that long-drawn-out an affair. On the contrary, I think it is proper to say that the House of Lords has prevented the Government from frustrating the Officers of both Houses when they seek to operate the constitutional safeguards de signed to protect the individual, acting alone or in association.
At this juncture I should like, if I may, briefly to try to lay a procedural ghost which I know has been haunting some noble Lords behind me, who felt that the bargain belatedly struck through the
918
usual channels had somehow deprived some companies of their constitutional rights under the hybrid Bill procedure. I merely want to say to them that the advice I have received is quite clear: the only points that the Select Committee would have agreed to hear would have been those which alleged discrimination as between individual interests within a general provision in the Bill—in other words, those issues which raise the questions of hybridity.
I must also ask the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, when he comes to reply, to expand a little on what he meant when he talked about "examining the implications of the Examiners' ruling". Is he seriously suggesting that the Government are considering removing the constitutional safeguards which have been built into our parliamentary procedure? If he is, we should want to know about it and I doubt very much whether we should be very happy.
Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLS: My Lords, is the noble Lord saying that if we had not passed the Motion last Thursday there could not have been an appeal to the Select Committee by, for example, Vosper, who feel that their ship repairing operations come under hybridity? Is the noble Lord saying that in passing the Motion that we did, that we robbed them of their opportunity to take the necessary action?
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, I could not possibly give an answer to that question, which is properly one for the Officers who advise this House. I would suggest that the noble Lord might put the question to them. Over two years we have been saying that the principal contention in this Bill was unnecessary at a time of national crisis under a minority Government. Was that not borne out two weeks ago when Mr. Kaufman announced that £65 million was to be made available for the shipbuilders under Part II of the Industry Act, which was passed by the last Conservative Government? On those policy issues perhaps we can again give Mr. Kaufman the last word, because it seemed to me he put his finger on the crux of the matter over the weekend when he is reported to have told shipbuilding workers in Glasgow that nationalisation would not

919
this was a unique and unprecedented situation. They then dealt with this particular question by bringing in Amendments.
However, during the painful passage of the Bill through this House, the Government were repeatedly warned by an ever-increasing crescendo of voices from all sides of the House that the Bill was demonstrably hybrid on more than one count. They were implored therefore to remove the ship repairing section which was anyway objectionable and for which in our view no logical, convincing case has been made. Seen from this side of the House, the Government's reaction appeared to be a witch's brew of arrogance, obduracy and wishful thinking in the face of these suggestions. This attitude persisted throughout the "ping-pong" session which brought the last Session to a long-delayed and exhausted close towards the end of last year.
Small wonder, then, that there was consternation when the Bill was reintroduced in November, the Clerks sought to refer the Bill to the Examiners and when the leader of another place again suspended Standing Orders, notwithstanding all the previous protestations in May. Thus, it was inevitable under the doctrine of community between the two Houses that the Clerks would refer the Bill to the Examiners before our Second Reading here today.
I suggest that it is misleading—to use the kindest possible word—to allege that this House has used what Mr. Varley back in May lightheartedly called a "diverting Parliamentary ploy" in order to filibuster or frustrate the passages of this Bill. This, incidentally, is only the 13th day on which this House has been considering this Bill, so in any case it has not been all that long-drawn-out an affair. On the contrary, I think it is proper to say that the House of Lords has prevented the Government from frustrating the Officers of both Houses when they seek to operate the constitutional safeguards de signed to protect the individual, acting alone or in association.
At this juncture I should like, if I may, briefly to try to lay a procedural ghost which I know has been haunting some noble Lords behind me, who felt that the bargain belatedly struck through the
920
usual channels had somehow deprived some companies of their constitutional rights under the hybrid Bill procedure. I merely want to say to them that the advice I have received is quite clear: the only points that the Select Committee would have agreed to hear would have been those which alleged discrimination as between individual interests within a general provision in the Bill—in other words, those issues which raise the questions of hybridity.
I must also ask the noble Lord, Lord Lord Melchett, when he comes to reply, to expand a little on what he meant when he talked about "examining the implications of the Examiners' ruling". Is he seriously suggesting that the Government are considering removing the constitutional safeguards which have been built into our parliamentary procedure? If he is, we should want to know about it and I doubt very much whether we should be very happy.
Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLS: My Lords, is the noble Lord saying that if we had not passed the Motion last Thursday there could not have been an appeal to the Select Committee by, for example, Vosper, who feel that their ship repairing operations come under hybridity? Is the noble Lord saying that in passing the Motion that we did, that we robbed them of their opportunity to take the necessary action?
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, I could not possibly give an answer to that question, which is properly one for the Officers who advise this House. I would suggest that the noble Lord might put the question to them. Over two years we have been saying that the principal contention in this Bill was unnecessary at a time of national crisis under a minority Government. Was that not borne out two weeks ago when Mr. Kaufman announced that £65 million was to be made available for the shipbuilders under Part II of the Industry Act, which was passed by the last Conservative Government? On those policy issues perhaps we can again give Mr. Kaufman the last word, because it seemed to me he put his finger on the crux of the matter over the weekend when he is reported to have told shipbuilding workers in Glasgow that nationalisation would not

921
create another job for them. I could not have put it better myself my Lords: that is exactly what we have always said.
The best one can say about this Bill now is that it is a tiny bit less crazy than it was. At least most of the independent ship repairers will be left alone to get on with their job. We accept that the Government have removed the hybridity, as we urged them to do. I have to say, however, that I think it is the greatest shame that they have not been able to find the wisdom and the magnanimity, if that is the right word, to go one stage further and take out the whole of the independent ship repairing industry. They are now in an illogical position which defies common sense, and I have to warn them that if some of the prognostications of what is going to happen to those parts of the ship repairing industry which are left nationalised prove correct, and if they should prove unable to compete against their "freewheeling" brethren, that is not something we shall lightly overlook in the months to come.
Let us try to end this melancholy affair on a not-too-sombre note. The one institution which emerges with some credit from it is, I suggest, your Lordships' House. We can fairly claim that we have shown restraint, wisdom, statesman ship and a recognition of reality. We have been assailed from all sides and reviled by extremists for our efforts, often inaccurately and unjustly. Nevertheless we can face our critics and say with some pride: "We may be an illogical anachronism and we probably ought to be reformed, but we have done our duty by our lights, and this country would have been a poorer place without us."
3.16 p.m.
The Earl of KIMBERLEY: My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona, said, perhaps this Bill is not an old friend, and I should not like to say what many noble Lords might possibly call it. It has been an unhappy Bill from the date of its conception, and your Lordships are all too familiar with its very unhappy and chequered career. We on these Benches, along with many noble Lords and Members of another place, have opposed it for divers reasons, but I assure your Lordships that I am not going to resuscitate those reasons this afternoon. However, I will say that we on these Benches opposed it
922
because we are against nationalisation, and we say here and now that we shall continue to oppose any other nationalisation plans or ideas that this Government may have in the future.
As I have said, I am not going into recriminations: they are entirely superfluous in the present circumstances. How ever, I should like to make one point—perhaps "re-emphasise" would be a better word—which the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona, mentioned just now. We feel, as we think do most noble Lords in this Chamber, that there may possibly be some people in Great Britain who think, completely misguidedly, that your Lordships' Chamber was responsible for the delay over this Bill. Those people may well not understand the hybridity issue, and I am sure that most noble Lords, wherever their Party allegiance may lie, including noble Lords who sit on the Cross-Benches, would welcome confirmation of that fact from the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, when he winds up for the Government. Yesterday, the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, said that most opponents of our joining the European Economic Community have now accepted the will of the British people through the Referendum. Indeed, several notable anti-Marketeers have now become Members of the European Parliament. The noble Lord, Lord Harris, said quite rightly that credit should be given to them for their democratic attitude and I, for one, agree with him.
That brings me to the ship repairers, who have been finally discarded from the Bill. May they now be left in peace to get on with their job, and may the back biting and any further snide allegations against them cease and the decision of Parliament be accepted with grace. As I have already said, we do not welcome the Bill but, for the sake of the two industries and in the national interest, we shall no longer object to it on principle and we shall undertake to use our best endeavours to facilitate its passage.
Finally, may I take this opportunity of wishing the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, and his colleagues all success with their venture—a success which British Aero space more than deserves and which will not be easy to secure. Likewise, if we are to have this Bill, may the British ship building industry prosper as well.
3.20 p.m.
Lord INVERFORTH: My Lords, my maiden speech last September was on the Second Reading of this Bill, and I hope that it is not my fate to be addressing your Lordships on the same Reading of the same Bill every six months. My noble friend Lord Inchcape, who is President of the General Council of British Shipping, is in the Far East on business, and in his absence I should like to inform your Lordships' House that British shipowners welcome the Government's decision to drop the nationalisation of independent ship repairing companies—a proposal which always seemed to us, as customers, to be misguided and indeed damaging.
The Bill's provisions for the nationalisation of shipbuilding are familiar to us all, and that perhaps allows us to spend more time today talking about the real problem of the United Kingdom shipbuilding industry, which is that, like all its competitors, it is capable of producing more ships than its customers either want or need. The Government have now acknowledged that there must be a contraction in the industry, and they are talking of a redundancy scheme. In addition, it is possible that the EEC will eventually produce proposals to the same end. Meanwhile, however, the order book is running down and the Government have set up a £65 million intervention fund to help United Kingdom shipbuilders quote competitive prices. There is no money in this scheme for British ship owners—the shipping industry has not asked for aid, and is not receiving aid—but we have assured the Prime Minister that we will do what we can to help. Already the General Council of British Shipping has written to its members suggesting what might be done.
It is worth stressing that British ship owners are by far the largest customer of the United Kingdom yards, and 72 per cent. of the tonnage on order in this country is for British registration. Indeed, British shipowners already have £600 million worth of ships on order in United Kingdom yards. Because British ship-owners are not looking for anything for themselves from this new intervention fund, we have welcomed the idea that it should apply to sales to foreign owners as well as to British owners. Thus we are happy for United Kingdom yards to win
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orders from Poland. It would, however, be intolerable if the Government put foreign owners—and Eastern bloc owners at that—at an advantage by comparison with British owners.
This is the basic theme of the British shipping industry—we compete against the world, and we must never be shackled with a competitive disadvantage. It is not good enough for the Government to say that they will give careful consideration to any similar orders by British owners. I should hope that the Minister would give a clear assurance that if, in future negotiations with buyers in Poland, Nigeria or any other country, concessions are offered, similar concessions will not be considered but offered to British buyers. If the Government do this, they will not only avoid criticism but also, perhaps, obtain additional orders, which is presumably the object of the exercise.
Your Lordships will appreciate that, against the size of the problem, the Government's new scheme is modest, and I have nothing against modesty. As Ministers have admitted, it is only an interim stage. It may buy time, but it will not solve the problem of surplus shipbuilding capacity. All over the world there is surplus capacity, and no amount of governmental or inter-Government aid will make that surplus go away. Indeed, if every Government try to buy orders then the situation will worsen, subsidies will spiral at the taxpayers' expense, and the problem of surplus will spread at an alarming rate from shipbuilding to shipping. The chronic over-tonnaging at present being experienced by the tanker section of our industry can easily be the fate of other types of tonnage, if the unnecessary building of ships is encouraged. Worldwide ship orders are at present low. If uncontrolled subsidies flood the world with ships, the normal re-ordering by established shipping companies will rapidly dry up and the plight of the world's shipbuilding industries will become even worse than at present.
There is no easy solution to the problem, but shipowners would urge the Government to seize the opportunity offered by this Bill to produce a national shipbuilding policy, which is based not on wishful thinking but on realities, bearing in mind particularly the undoubted strength which

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still exists in the British shipbuilding industry. As a customer of that industry, may I wish the Government well in their endeavours to create a shipbuilding organisation which is not only strong but viable, and able not merely to survive but to flourish.
It is perhaps timely that my company actually has a ship running her trials off the North-East coast today. She is the third of a series of ships being contructed for us by the State-owned Sunderland Shipbuilders Limited. When the fourth vessel of this series is delivered at the beginning of June, she will have the distinction of being the fiftieth vessel built for us at Sunderland. This simple statistic is much more meaningful than any expressions of praise. Let the last word come from our new ship, as I received the following message from Cullercoats radio just before leaving for the House today:
"'Streambank' trials satisfactory with all equipment and systems fully functional. First class vessel all respects. Master and officers send thanks to Sunderland Shipbuilders and wish the future British Shipbuilders good luck and success."
That is a message which all in British shipping echo. We want British ship building to be strong, competitive and successful.
3.26 p.m.
Lord SHINWELL: My Lords, I under stand that the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, whose name appears on the list of speakers, is not present in the assembly and there fore it is my turn to venture to offer a few observations. In the course of previous debates, I mentioned that, in my judgment, nationalisation would not provide more employment. It would not create new jobs. The speech by Mr. Kaufman to Clyde Shipbuilders the other day is a complete vindication of what I said on those occasions. My experience of nationalisation is also a demonstration of the fact, which cannot be challenged on the statistical evidence, of that assertion.
Some years ago, we nationalised the coalmining industry at a time when 800,000 or 900,000 miners were in the employment of private owners. The industry was brought under public control. There are now approximately 300,000 mineworkers in the industry. Similarly with the steel industry and with others,
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and for obvious reasons. Indeed, one of the prime objects of nationalisation was to promote greater efficiency, to produce more with less labour, and that has occurred. It does not follow from what I have said, and what was mentioned on a previous occasion, that nationalisation possesses no advantages whatever. On the contrary, it seeks to free industry from monopoly control. It also provides many other advantages into which I need not enter, but they are well known to those who have studied the subject and who have profited from the experience of public control.
We are faced with a very simple issue. The shipbuilding industry of the United Kingdom is in the doldrums. Even before the First World War, when I first associated myself with the seafarers of the country, and naturally acquired some knowledge of shipbuilding, because the two industries are closely related, the shipbuilding industry was in a parlous state. It is worse now than ever, for obvious reasons. We were the greatest shipbuilding country in the world. We had the finest shipwrights and the most competent management. We made these contributions to other countries, which had only potential; they lacked experience. Those countries included Japan, West Germany and even some of the Scandinavian countries which had long experience of shipbuilding. We exported hundreds, indeed thousands, of our skilled shipwrights and marine engineers to other countries and thus built up a huge, efficient and viable shipbuilding industry among our competitors. We are now experiencing the results.
However, other factors were operating. The shipbuilding industry of the United Kingdom has never possessed a surplus of finance. It has been compelled constantly to borrow from the banks and to obtain from a number of Governments, not only from the Labour Government, the requisite finance in order to continue their operations. One of the prime examples is Harland and Wolff. For many years past it has hardly ever been out of financial trouble. It was a Conservative Government, not a Labour Government, which many years ago had to find the requisite finance to enable the world-famous Cunard Line to build the Queen Mary and the Queen Elizabeth—not the present but the previous ships.

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There has been a certain amount of controversy over procedure and also over the constitutional privilege of this Assembly to override or, to use a milder term, to revise decisions reached in another place. I do not want to embark on a discussion of that issue because, quite frankly, it does not affect the future of British shipbuilding, which is our concern. What is to be done about it?
Leaving aside hybridity and examination by the officials of both Houses of Parliament, we are faced with the simple fact that the Government, by arrangement with the other side of the House, have come to the conclusion that they can afford to set aside not the whole of ship repairing but part of it, some of which is absorbed in shipbuilding itself while some of it is of an independent character, so as to enable nationalised shipbuilding to proceed on a financial basis of £65 million. I am bound to say that this is a drop in the ocean when one considers the needs of British shipbuilding. In creating the organisation it may assist to provide the staff, managerial and otherwise—and very essential they are. But what financial cover they can provide for the ship owners, who have to buy the ships and who need the ships, and for the ship builders who have to build the ships is of a character which, quite frankly, appears to be horrific to those who understand the needs of United Kingdom shipbuilding.
How are we to face the formidable competition from Japan, West Germany, the Scandinavian countries and other countries in the Near and the Far East and elsewhere who are now engaged in shipbuilding with some measure of success? I ask that question, because every one of the countries which I have mentioned is, without exception, highly subsidised. I do not believe that there is a shipbuilding company in the world, whether in Japan, or in the United States, or elsewhere, that is viable without Government financial assistance. We have to face the fact that that has been our situation for some time and that we have not met with a substantial measure of success.
I say to Members of your Lordships' House, leaving aside the political implications, controversy and the like, that there is a paramount need to build up a viable shipbuilding industry in this country.
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We are suffering enough in the shipping industry itself, which is almost in the doldrums. It is faced with competition from the Liberians who engage in what are called "flags of convenience" and in ploys which are designed to confound British ship owners. We have been discussing these matters for many years, again not with any great measure of success, because we face formidable com petition. For example, questions have been asked recently by noble Lords on both sides of the House about the injection of Russian shipping. Why have the Russians succeeded where we have failed? They have succeeded where we have failed because they do not pay the kind of wages that we pay. And we do not pay as high wages as the Israelis or the Americans pay. All of these competitive factors are operating.
What are we to do with the £65 million? It will not help very much so far as ship owners are concerned. It may encourage them if they are satisfied that under nationalisation shipbuilding in this country will provide the facilities which will enable us to build more efficiently—or with anything but inefficiency. We are very efficient indeed on the technical and technological side. It may encourage ship owners if they are satisfied that under nationalisation shipbuilding in this country will have the facilities to enable ships to be built speedily and will not be subject to the excessive delays which apparently are peculiar to this country. There are difficulties elsewhere, but delays seem to be peculiar to this country. I am not going to impute blame to the shipwrights and others. Very often a ship is delayed in its construction because the components, without which a ship cannot be completed, are not available.
Moreover, there is one factor that seems to be disregarded in this country and an attempt has to be made to overcome the difficulty. The difficulty is that ships have to be built under cover. The Japanese have succeeded in building ships under cover, and other shipbuilding countries have met with some success. In this country, where the weather cannot be relied upon, inclement weather means that the construction of a ship without any cover is bound to be delayed. If the whole of the £65 million were to be devoted to providing cover in shipbuilding yards, it would be a more effective

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contribution than almost anything else. I mention it only as one of the factors.
If the Government had not decided to embark on nationalisation—I want to say this with the greatest respect to the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, and those who are supporting him who object to nationalisation, and I say it to the Liberals also—they would have had to rationalise the industry. They would have had to amalgamate the industry and to effect mergers, which would have created difficulties also. There is no guarantee that even amalgamation would mean that we could provide the facilities which, after all, require in the ultimate the assistance of the Government of the day. That is what we are embarking on now. We must go ahead with providing assistance, and there ought to be no delay. The ship owners of this country have to be protected, also. They want ships and they have to obtain them at the cheapest possible rate.
Finally, when we had the previous debates I said that shipbuilding in the future will be highly speculative. I said the same about the aerospace industry, although I may be wrong about that because I know little or nothing about the subject. However, I understand that there are difficulties in that industry, too. Shipbuilding is highly speculative, though, and we have to make the best of the situation. It requires the good will of ship owners, it requires the good will of those engaged in the industry—the management, the shipwrights and, I should like to add, the Clyde Shipbuilders. It is easy enough to "talk big", as they were the other day, and to say to Mr. Kaufman, "If a single person is made redundant by nationalisation you will be in trouble". That is not the way to talk. Their work and their lives depend upon it and their children depend upon it. There must be co-operation. Without that co-operation there will be serious trouble, and we are in enough trouble already.
I should like to say this also to those engaged in this subject, like the noble Lord, Lord Inverforth, who is an expert on it. So far as the ship owners are concerned, do not rush into this without prudence and caution. There are too many ships in the world anyway just now. There is a surplus of shipping. I happen
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to read, every other fortnight, a periodical called the Telegraph—nothing to do with the Daily Telegraph; I am sorry even to mention the Daily Telegraph because I do not want to give them a gratuitous advertisement at any time. It is the Telegraph, which deals with shipping affairs, so that one may get to know what is going on at the present time. We obtain contemporary knowledge. Ship owners must be careful, but with co operation and with good will and an acceptance by the other side of the House of something that appears inevitable whether or not they like it, we can make of this some success. That is the best that we can hope for.
3.44 p.m.
Lord MONSON: My Lords, the Government's decision to delete ship repairing from this Bill represents a great victory for justice, not because an efficient and versatile industry is being spared from the net of nationalisation, although no doubt that is a good thing it itself, but specifically because it obviates the distasteful prospect of private interests or individuals being "singled out by a public Bill for adverse treatment", to quote the words of the Examiners. But unfortunately another and even greater and more glaring injustice remains and, as the question of hybridity is not involved, in this instance, the Examiners are in no position to "defend the subject against selective ill-treatment"—to quote their words again. I refer, of course, to the confiscatory compensation terms being offered to certain of the shipbuilding companies which remain within the scope of the Bill. These terms, which are quite without precedent in the history of British nationalisation—if one may so put it—have far more profound implications than might generally be supposed.
To simplify the argument as much as possible, I do not propose to deal with those aircraft and shipbuilding firms which may well have valid grievances over the amount of compensation proposed, but where the element of confiscation is less than 50 per cent.; nor do I propose to deal with the refusal of the Government to take into account the premium invariably paid for control—over and above the stock market valuation—in transactions between willing buyer and willing seller, this

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point having been so ably expounded by the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, from these Benches and by the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, from the Conservative Benches in our debates last year. Nor do I propose to expand on the unprecedented and in explicable refusal to grant roll-over relief on the reinvestment of the compensation monies (such as they are) which among other things will adversely affect future employment prospects in the parts of the country concerned, many of them being development areas. I want to concentrate instead solely upon the two companies that are by far the most unfairly, even scandalously, treated—Yarrow and Vosper Thornycroft.
But first I should like to put on record that I do not have, and never have had, one single penny invested in either of these companies, nor are the shares in these companies held in any of the portfolios which I manage. Nor, may I add, did either of these companies approach me for help in this matter. I wonder whether the average person has any idea of quite how scandalously unfair the compensation terms for these companies are? Vosper Thornycroft, for instance, by dint of hard work and by a great and successful export drive (so that exports now provide 90 per cent, of the shipbuilding subsidiaries' profits, to the great benefit of this country's balance of payments) has pushed up its pre-tax profits to £5·51 million for 1976. Yet the prospective compensation—assuming that the part is valued at less than the whole, which is usually the case—seems unlikely to exceed £4·2 million; that is, equivalent to scarcely more than nine months' (not nine years' but nine months') profits, at a price, incidentally, equal to less than one-fifth of the asset value. It should be noted that the return on capital was 25 per cent, and that surely demonstrates that the asset value has not been artificially inflated. The terms proposed for Yarrow are almost as bad.
Time and time again when we debated this Bill last year Ministers rose to insist that the Government proposed to stick by the compensation formulae in the Bill; in other words a notional share value during the reference period between 1st September 1973 and the end of February 1974. Time and time again the Ministers, often in the same speech, rose to say that the compensation terms would
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be fair. This is really an Alice in Wonder land state of affairs, because either the compensation terms can be based on values which were prevailing three and a quarter years ago or they can be fair; but they cannot possibly be both at the same time, except by some wild and unlikely co incidence.
It may be suggested that I am making a mountain out of a molehill and that however hard the Government's decision may be on small shareholders and the beneficiaries of pension funds which happen to hold these shares in their portfolios, it is something that cannot possibly concern the average person in this country. Nothing could be further from the truth. Once the precedent has been established, once confiscation is seen to have legislative blessing, nobody who owns any property at all can feel entirely secure in the future—and I am not just referring to shareholders.
Let us suppose that by some misfortune, the famous—or perhaps I should say the infamous—M.3 motorway ever comes to be built round Winchester, might it not be argued that because the building of that road (which after all has been on the drawing board for a great many years) was only frustrated by the long drawn out, pernicious, vociferous opposition of protestors, the people whose houses have to be demolished for the building of the motorway should be compensated at the prices prevailing in the 1960s?
Let us take the M.3 analogy just a little further. Consider a pair of semi-detached houses standing in the line of the motor way. The left-hand house was worth quite a lot of money five years ago, but the present owner has allowed it to deteriorate. It has not been decorated internally or externally; it is in an entirely shabby state and accordingly the market value is no more than £10,000. In contrast, the right-hand house, formerly derelict, has an owner who has expended love and care upon it, and has spent all his leisure hours with electric drills, paint sprays and so on, installing central heating, so that it is now worth all of £15,000. Might it not be decreed that the appropriate compensation for the at present less valuable left-hand house should be fixed at £9,000—less than the market value admittedly, unfairly less, but not to the extent of being confiscatory—and the compensation for the

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right-hand house, which was worth so little five years ago, should be a mere £3,000? The £3,000 is proportionately equivalent to the compensation that Vosper Thorneycroft stand to receive; one-fifth of the true market value. It may be unlikely that this precise analogy will in fact occur; there are electoral considerations which will rule this out, if nothing else. But in theory anything is possible; 1984 is, after all, less than seven years away.
Property rights are not the only thing to be threatened by this part of the Bill. The efficient, dynamic and enterprising firms, mainly big exporters, are seen once again to be scorned and rejected in favour of the sluggish, static and inefficient ones. Dividend restraint is another example of this. Next it leads to greater uncertainty and demoralisation among investors, large and small, direct and indirect, and among businessmen and, just as important, aspiring businessmen, and it will certainly deter future foreign investment in this country. In an out-and-out Marxist country at least one knows exactly where one stands, depending on whether the country in question is still Stalinist, like Albania, or is slightly liberalised, like Hungary and Poland. The citizen knows that he is allowed to own a strictly limited amount of property, varying from nothing at all in one case to perhaps one house, a car, if he can afford it, and in certain countries a business employing no more than four people in addition to the owner and his wife. People know exactly where they stand, and therefore they can make their choice; either submit tamely, or take to the hills or emigrate, provided they can circumvent whatever Berlin-type wall is thrown around the country.
I am not suggesting for one moment that we have reached anything like that stage here, but paradoxically the uncertainty and demoralisation are even worse, intensified by such extraordinary and shocking actions as the declaration that promises made to short-service Fleet Air Arm and RAF pilots will not now be honoured. Thinking both of these pilots and of the compensation terms, if the Government are seen to be behaving in an unscrupulous and "crooked" fashion, what incentive is there for the private citizen to behave in a decent and honest manner, other than the negative one of the fear of being caught.
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Finally, my Lords, confiscation, except in times of grave national emergency—I do not think that it can be argued that this applies here—is in breach of our inter national obligations under both the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights and also the European Convention on Human Rights, as I have pointed out on more than one occasion before. What is the reason for the refusal by the Government to provide a more equitable basis for compensation, faced as they are with the obvious unfairness of these terms? Suspicious-minded people will see in this the hands of the Marxists, in whose interests it would be to acclimatise the British people to the idea of expropriation so as to pave the way for more in future. Other uncharitable individuals will suspect that there exists some sort of vindictive vendetta against these two companies. I prefer to think that their attitude stems from the obsession with saving face which characterises all Governments, and not just Labour ones; the desire not to be seen to be pushed into changing their mind. I have always thought this a most unfortunate tendency, as well as electorally disadvantageous, because the man in the street respects and admires politicians and Parties that admit their mistakes and declare their intention of rectifying them.
It may be that there are some people—not, of course, in your Lordships' House, but elsewhere—who are quite unruffled and unabashed at the charge that the compensation terms proposed are more appropriate to a Warsaw Pact country than to a liberal, free enterprise, Western democracy. Let me, therefore, give them some food for thought. From the researches that I have been able to make—and I confess that precise statistics are extremely hard to come by—it would appear that the prices being offered for these two companies are, if anything, less favourable than the prices at which many members of a certain minority group were forced to sell their businesses under the aegis of the National Socialists in the early and mid-1930s. The comparison stops there, of course, but even this limited similarity is surely one which any British Government would wish to avoid.
The irony of it is that Labour's record in this particular sphere of human rights is a good one, and worth living up to. For many decades owner-occupiers of

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terraced houses in working-class areas who were forced to leave their homes because of comprehensive redevelopment or slum clearance schemes, or because their homes were declared to be unfit for human habitation by virtue of their bedroom ceilings being 1½ inches lower than the statutory minimum or whatever, were awarded the most derisory compensation, scarcely more than site value, however, comfortable and serviceable their homes might be.
To its eternal credit, it was a Labour Administration that took steps to end this particular injustice by means of Part V of the Housing Act, 1969, which replaced the quite inadequate provisions contained in Section 30 of the 1957 Act. A Labour Government, in other words, stepped forward to put a stop to the virtual confiscation of private property, thereby effectively asserting that this sort of behaviour has no place in a Western democracy. However, if this Bill remains unamended, all the good work of this Government's forerunner will be reversed, overturned. It would be a tragedy for the people of this country if this were to happen, and even at this late hour I beg the Government to think again.
3.57 p.m.
Lord ORR-EWING: My Lords, I think we all welcome the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, back from his arduous duties in Northern Ireland; I am glad to see him looking so hale and hearty. I observe that his shadow grows no less. But I find that his arguments grow less and less convincing, and I hope that we shall not have to hear them for very much longer. I think he went slightly too far—this was a new one I think, and I have heard all his arguments—when he said that this was a "rationalisation" of the ship repairing industry. If we look at the ship repairing industry we find there are 90 ship repairers of all shapes and sizes. This Bill seeks, or did seek, to nationalise 12. Of those 12, three are already nationalised—and those incidentally are the ones in the worst trouble—three want to be nationalised, and six are going to be allowed to continue their prosperous future. We must be glad for small mercies. There is one among the shipbuilders which wants to have its ship repairing side made free and is not
936
allowed to. So it is a strange sort of rationalisation that is going to affect different ship repairers in different packets all over our country.
The other argument which I thought was even less convincing was that we must go ahead with this because this was the will of the other place. I really must remind the noble Lord that this will was a little uncertain. On one occasion it was a tie; that was because one gentleman, I think on my side of the House, was taking a holiday in Corfu; I admire his taste but not his punctuality in returning. It seemed to us that in the other place there was no very distinct will observed at all. The majorities were slender; once a tie. When it was retried and the pairing system was made less manoeuvrable, shall we say, there was a majority of one.
Nor do I accept myself—and I think I am rot alone, judging from the columns of our national newspapers—that because something is in the Manifesto you must automatically charge ahead with it even though all the conditions under which it was put down have changed in the interim. I would remind noble Lords that it did not say "nationalisation" in the Manifesto, it said "take into public ownership". BP is in public ownership, and in fact the Government are trying to reduce the degree of public ownership because it plans to "flog" off a portion of it. The Government did not have to take 100 per cent. of all the aerospace and shipbuilding companies.
Nor do I ever accept that because you have got 39 per cent. of the popular vote, the great majority of whom have never read the Manifesto of any Party, you are entitled to go ahead irrespective of changed conditions and irrespective of a change in our economic situation. I would remind your Lordships that Hitler had more than 39 per cent. of the popular vote, and we all thought it was ghastly that he should be allowed to go ahead with everything that he included in his Manifesto; it was to the detriment of the world that he did so. Therefore, I am not greatly convinced under any of those headings with the arguments that have been advanced today.
This nationalisation Bill started life on 17th April 1975. It has been nearly 23 months before Parliament. Through out that time we have discussed it for only

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12 days, although it has been discussed for many more days in another place. It is sad for democracy how minuscule the number of Amendments tabled by the Liberal Benches, the Cross-Benches and our own Benches that have been accepted by the Government. The Government were elected on the ticket—and we saw this not just in small print in the Manifesto but it was widely publicised on television—that they stood for open government. It seems that it is open government but closed minds, and that is not to their credit.
I should like to reiterate what my noble friend Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal said. Within the period of 700 days that the Bill has been before Parliament it has been before this House for only 12 days. I hope that when the Minister replies he will give us credit that that was not due to delays in this House. No one could say that 12 days is a large slice of 700 days. The Bill has taken that long because of delays in other places.
Lord MELCHETT: My Lords, I should like to get that straight. Is the noble Lord saying that out of the total period of 700 days the Bill has been before this House for only 12 days? If so, I am not sure that he is comparing like with like.
Lord ORR-EWING: My Lords, that is why I particularly said "Parliamentary days"—700 elapsed days and the Bill has been discussed in this House for only 12, counting all the stages and the period of ping-pong between the two Houses. Therefore, in that period, we have not had the power to delay the Bill. The Bill has taken so long partly because it is a bad, muddled and unjust Bill and partly because the Government do not have the majority in the House of Commons to bulldoze it through, as they would like to do. Certainly there is not a majority in the country behind it.
Throughout the discussions of the Bill in both places—and I have read these debates fairly carefully—we have argued that under the 1972 Act it is perfectly possible to go ahead, and that we do not need to have all this extra nationalisation business. The Government could have proceeded under the 1972 Act and also through the National Enterprise Board. That has recently been made even more
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evident because £65 million has been given to the holding company to carry on with shipbuilding management.
Lord PARGITER: My Lords, the noble Lord has referred to the National Enterprise Board. I thought that the Conservative Party did not like the National Enterprise Board.
Lord ORR-EWING: My Lords, we do not like it because we do not think that it will do the job. However, it is there for better or for worse. Is it not better to use something that is in existence rather than to drag many extra organisations into the vortex of a bad thing? Those portions of the ship repairing or ship-building industry which it was felt it was desirable to nationalise could be taken over by the National Enterprise Board. If the Government can be spoke £1,400 million to British Leyland under the 1972 Act, how much easier is it to give the relatively small amount of £300 million or £400 million under the 1972 Act.
Lord PARGITER: My Lords, I thought that the Conservative Party was also committed to getting rid of the National Enterprise Board.
Lord ORR-EWING: My Lords, I have also mentioned the 1972 Act. It was under Part II of that Act that the last £65 million was given. It was under the 1972 Act initially that British Leyland was assisted. There is the power and the format. Although we may not approve of these organisations they do exist and could have been used if the Government had the will and wanted to get on. Why the sudden hurry to reach this agreement between our two Front Benches? I find this perplexing in view of the amount of time that has elapsed.
I believe that the Front Benches were asked to make a decision within two or three days. If that is so, it is surprising because the proposition has been trailed over the front pages of our national newspapers for a long time. We have read in the Financial Times, The Times and other newspapers that ship repairing would be omitted; then suddenly there is an approach through official channels and immediately the decision has to be taken. There should have been more consideration of both the pros and cons of making

939
this arrangement—that would have been beneficial.
I also object to this procedure on constitutional grounds. The Bill has been declared hybrid. How glad I was to hear the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, say that. The more we say it the better because it is not yet generally believed outside that the Bill was examined by two officials from the House of Commons and two officials from this House. It is sometimes implied that your Lordships made this decision and sat in judgment on the issue of hybridity. Noble Lords know perfectly well that that was not so. The Bill was found to be hybrid. Once a Bill is found to be hybrid by the Examiners all parts of the Bill are normally open for people to petition against, and a Select Committee is set up to receive the petitions and consider them. Every part of the Bill is open for consideration. None of us can know whether the Select Committee, which could comprise five or even seven Members of your Lordships' House, would have found it possible or in order to listen to some of these petitions.
We must give individuals and individual bodies the right to petition—that is inbuilt into our present Constitution. At a stroke they have been denied that right. There could be many people, particularly the 70 per cent. in the aerospace industry who are not organised in trade unions, who might wish to petition. They could have petitioned against that part of the Bill which sets up the participation machinery—industrial democracy as it is called—on the ground that it was unfair because it discriminated in favour of the 30 per cent., the trade unionists. I do not know whether that is in order. However, those people should have the right to petition. I see that the noble Lord is shaking his head.
Lord MELCHETT: My Lords, I am doing so on the basis of the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal.
Lord ORR-EWING: My Lords, the remarks of my noble friend were very pertinent but I am not sure to which part the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, refers. I have said that I do not know whether the Select Committee would have found that this was in order—none of us can
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forecast that. We must seriously consider whether we are right in denying such people the opportunity to put their case to a Select Committee. Certainly some of the shipbuilders like Yarrow and Vosper Thornycroft were preparing a case to petition against the Bill. We have now denied them the right. They should have been allowed to petition.
I hear my noble and learned friend Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, who is very learned in the law, making critical noises from the Front Bench. He was one of those who negotiated this deal and I am sure that he knows very much more about it than others. We shall take a serious turn if we deny people the right to petition under our procedure and Constitution. This would be a new format for a Bill which denies them their inalienable right.
Those at Vosper Thornycroft may say that they are being unfairly treated vis-à-vis some of their competitors. This certainly could happen as regards compensation, to which the noble Lord, Lord Monson, referred. This is not compensation; in some cases it is outright robbery. Those at Yarrow are to be paid, if we judge it correctly, one year's earnings. That is incredible. When one takes over a company one probably pays five years' earnings or sometimes even seven years' earnings. The good firms should have been compensated more generously; the bad ones should have been compensated much less generously. That would give rise to a much greater degree of fairness than is built into the Bill and this formula.
As I have said, your Lordships' House has earned a great deal of respect, particularly as regards the constitutional stand that it has taken in the last six months. It has been noted that we operated strictly according to the rules laid down for us and according to the power given to us by Mr. Attlee's Government in 1949. It is most unfortunate that, without remonstration, we seek to pass a Bill using a device which is very similar to that which Mr. Foot in the House of Commons tried to use and of which we were deeply critical. It may be convenient for us on both sides of the House that we act like this and do not delay further. It is certainly convenient to the Government, and certainly convenient to the House of Commons where they no

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longer have a majority. I wonder whether we do not do ourselves a disservice by eroding our constitutional powers in this manner. We are looked up to for our constitutional prowess and our integrity: this is how we are respected in the country now, and I think we are setting a very dangerous precedent which may well be quoted against us on some future occasion. In the House of Lords the convenience of a minority Government cannot, and must not, take precedence over our constitutional duties.
4.10 p.m.
Lord SELSDON: My Lords, in rising I am conscious of a certain feeling of déjà vu, or prévu, and on the moment critique I was absent. May I apologise to your Lordships' House and particularly to noble Lords opposite. As the noble Baroness, Lady Llewelyn-Davies, would know, things often do not go according to plan. Noble Lords opposite are well aware of their own administrative problems and, if I may, I will intervene for two and a half minutes, not on points of principle but on points of action. Noble Lords opposite will know how strongly we on this side of the House feel that the way to increase productivity or to regenerate industry in this country is not by acquisition but by creation and perhaps one should say a certain sense of freedom and incentives. But today we are faced with the situation whereby for one reason or another, the Government in power believe that a solution to the shipbuilding and aerospace industry lies in acquisition or nationalisation. The point we have made before is that it is obviously the duty of Government, if they decide that is the right thing to do, to do it as cheaply and as quickly as possible.
I have been criticised by my colleagues on this side of the House in previous debates where one urged that something should be done quickly, and while one does not approve of the way in which this is being done there is no doubt that Government involvement or public sector involvement in both industries is essential, although perhaps some of us would say not necessarily desirable. But what concerns me more than anything is that in the intervening months or years since this Bill was originally drafted the situation has changed beyond all belief.
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At the time the Bill was drafted there were many who believed that in the country we had already reached the bottom and people did not believe that we could continue to slide in the way we have. There are people who believe that we have now reached the bottom and that there is no way, economically, that the United Kingdom can go down. It may seem odd that the passage and the implementation of this Bill should be so critical, for we are faced with two points. There are those in this country who, for one reason or another, can create and produce and generate enthusiasm for Bills and there are those who car not. The interesting thing to me, and the question I pose to noble Lords opposite, is this. Why is it that all those people who surreptitiously, through innumerable corridors, urge that they should be taken over and that their liabilities should be passed on to the State are those who have notoriously failed before? And why is it that those who have done well and have demonstrated that with the right amount of Government support, or perhaps total independence, they can stand on their own feet, are opposed to nationalisation? My Lords, I hope in the interpretation of this Bill noble Lords will bear this question in mind.
4.14 p.m.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROY: My Lords, I hope that we are about to see the closing stages of the protracted proceedings on this Bill. The Second Reading of the Bill in this House took place in September, but it was first introduced in another place in April 1975, nearly two years' ago, and it has now spanned three Sessions of Parliament. At the beginning I will make it absolutely clear to your Lordships that we from this Bench thoroughly dislike this Bill. We believe that the proposals for nationalising the industries are damaging in the long term, damaging both to the industries and to the country's economy. As we have made clear on previous occasions, we accept that there is a crisis in the merchant ship-building industry, but we have pointed out that there are other ways in which this could be dealt with and indeed the Government within the last two weeks have agreed to start action under the 1972 Industry Act.

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But I must point out that the Parliament Act is hanging over this Bill during this current Session. Besides the Examiners' report, that is another major difference between our previous consideration of the Bill and our discussion today. The choice boils down to, first, delay and the whole Bill probably becoming law eventually under the Parliament Act; or a quick passage of the Bill now through Parliament, minus the list of 12 named ship repairing companies. The Examiners' report found that the Bill was hybrid in the ship repairing section and the Government now intend to remove that section and so remove hybridity from the Bill. They are not proposing to remove all the ship repairing from the Bill, and, like my noble friend Lord Orr-Ewing, I regret that, but they are intending to remove hybridity as a response to the finding of the Examiners.
I believe that we should recognise what has happened since 8th December when the Bill, reintroduced, came here from another place. The Bill has been dealt with by Parliamentary clerks and other officials and there has been time for two things: first, for the proper procedure to be adopted and, secondly, for the Government to have second thoughts. I believe that this is not a day for recriminations. The Government in the end have conceded, in accepting what a large majority in this House thought right in November; namely, that the ship repairing section of the Bill should be dropped. This is an occasion for a cool assessment of what has happened.
Some noble Lords have spoken of precedents and I think there is still some confusion outside your Lordships' House as to what has happened. The powers of this House are very limited. None the less they had enabled the truth to emerge and the truth to prevail—that the Bill is hybrid. Had it not been for the existence of this House there would have been no opportunity and no time for the Examiners to determine that the Bill is hybrid, contrary to the Government's opinion. The Government held their opinion very strongly but they were proved to be mistaken. Governments are not infallible and no blame attached to this Government for that. It is the same for all Governments and, since fallibility is a human weakness, noble Lords opposite will not mind my
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pointing out the Examiners' finding that the Parliamentary draftsman was given an impossible task. He was not given all the information needed in order to ensure that the Bill was not hybrid.
The Bill was in the Commons for a year and a half before we in this House were able to discuss it for the first time in September. We were then expected to pass it through all its stages within six weeks, though that time was later extended. In that first debate—I hope your Lordships will not mind my recalling this—it was I who happened to be the first person to raise the question of hybridity in the ship repairing section. On the 28th September, in col. 208 of the Official Report onwards, I pointed out that the 12 ship repairing companies named in Schedue 2 did not appear accurately to conform with the criteria in the Bill. If that was so, private interests in particular categories were not being treated equally. In those circumstances Parliament had devised the hybrid Bill procedure to enable affected citizens to put their cases in person. That procedure exists to protect the rights of the citizen to plead his cause and to be heard before a committee of Parliament.
Had the Government identified the Bill as hybrid at the beginning it would have followed a different course from the beginning. When I raised the matter at the end of September it was too late for the necessary procedure to be introduced within that Session. At the very end of the last Session the Examiners' proceedings and hybrid procedure could not have been introduced without the Bill's failing to complete its passage in time. As the ship repairing section was not a significant or essential part of the Bill, and as we on these Benches considered that the Bill would be better without it, we pressed Amendments to omit ship repairing. Had the Government then accepted our proposition they would have obtained the rest of the Bill last November.
Ministers rejected my advice last September, although it was being put help-fully, that the ship repairing section seemed hybrid. They did so in long Written Answers to me and to my noble friend Lord Colville. But it must have been study of those replies which caused the Public Bill Offices in both Houses to refer the Bill to the Examiners immediately on its reintroduction this Session. Revelation

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of the Government's interpretations of the criteria produced a prima facie case for examination. As a result, the four Examiners, two from the Commons and two from the Lords, determined that the ship repairing section was hybrid before any Peer discussed the Bill in this Session, far less voted upon it. There must have been much joy in heaven during this past week, for the Government are now accepting what they resisted four months ago.
For our part, we on these Benches intensely dislike the proposed nationalisation of the aircraft and shipbuilding industries. That is not the way to promote their interests or success. The Government have on many occasions referred to the plight of the merchant shipbuilders, who have been experiencing a very severe crisis owing to the worldwide shortage of orders. As noble Lords know, the British industry is not alone in this; other countries which build merchant ships are suffering too. At any time during the last two years the Government could have assisted their necessary restructuring using the powers and finance available under the Industry Act 1972. Only within the last two weeks have they decided to do so.
It is clear, and the Government have admitted this, that the industry must become smaller, with consequent redundancies, as a result of restructuring, whether or not under nationalisation. But the later remedial action is started, the more difficult the problems will be. In this situation, it was not surprising that most of the organising committee, including Mr. Graham Day the designated chief executive, decided to depart at the end of last year. They formed the nucleus of the proposed national corporation, British Shipbuilders; their patience must have been exhausted with the Government's mishandling of the Bill, culminating in the Cabinet's refusal in November, for reasons best known to themselves, to accept the Bill without ship repairing.
I hope Ministers will find ways of informing the House within the next few days how that organising committee is now to be reconstituted—because so many of its members have departed—if, as now expected, the Bill will arrive on the Statute Book within a few weeks. I have been inquiring from time to time—the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, will be
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aware of this very well—whether the Government have yet decided in what part of the country the headquarters of that organisation will be; it seems very late in the day not to have taken even that decision yet. Perhaps Lord Melchett will be able to tell us today or, if not, in the near future. I asked him on Second Reading in September and he said he hoped very shortly to be able to give us that information.
My noble friend Lord Orr-Ewing is right to express concern, as he did today, that the alternative course to what is now proposed by the two Front Benches should be very carefully considered. I can tell him that various courses have been very carefully considered by the occupants of this Front Bench because one does not lightly acquiesce in throwing away the opportunities that the citizen has once they have been won, even if a very large majority of those concerned have had conceded to them what they were asking for. But I ask Lord Orr-Ewing, and others who may think like him and who are equally concerned, to consider carefully the Parliament Act and its restrictions on the actions and options which are open to Parliament as a whole. I think Lord Orr-Ewing knows that I have myself been in the forefront of those trying to help the industries and particularly the companies he named; regarding compensation, for example, Yarrows, and, as far as the ship repairing industry is concerned, Vosper Thornycroft, concerning whom I moved the special Amendments which had been drafted in order to meet that company's unique position.
I am sorry that the Government preferred to remove hybridity and would not go further and take the ship repairing element which still remained in the Bill out as well; that would have meant removing 13 companies and not just the named 12. Since the Government put this proposal last week I have been examining every contingency in the coming months and I can tell my noble friend that I think the course we are now proposing is the best one for the industries as a whole and for the country.
The noble Lord, Lord Monson, also spoke about his grave concern, particularly about the compensation clauses. I will not go into the Parliament Act in detail,

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nor will I re-open the debates on compensation, which were very long in this House, and the noble Lords who took part in those debates spoke with great concern and knowledge. Lord Monson raised the possibility of voting against the Bill now on Second Reading in view of what had happened, or at any rate I thought he spoke as if he did not like the idea of the Bill getting a Second Reading. I would point out to him that the quirks which arise under the Parliament Act are such that, were this House to have a Division and decline to give the Bill a Second Reading, that would have the effect of activating the Parliament Act immediately and producing exactly the opposite result to what Lord Monson would wish; namely, the Bill, including ship repairing, would be available to the Government forthwith.
Lord MONSON: My Lords, I did not suggest that the House should vote against the Second Reading of the Bill. I was urging the Government to think again between now and the Committee stage.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROY: My Lords, I am glad to have given the noble Lord an opportunity to make clear what he was saying and it has given me the opportunity to point out the extraordinary contradictions that exist if one looks into the operation of the Parliament Act and considers the various possibilities. I have not today repeated the arguments against the Bill; we have heard them many times from various quarters of your Lordships' House. Nor have I repeated the arguments against the ship repairing section of the Bill. From what I have said about the history and handling of the Bill, however, I hope your Lordships will realise that I and my noble friends on this Bench consider it better to adopt the course now proposed by the Government in view of the effects of the Parliament Act, and to drop the ship repairing section in Schedule 2.
We prefer that course, rather than continuing the uncertainty, which is painful for the merchant ship building industry, and facing the probability that the Parliament Act would eventually cause the nationalisation of all the industries, including the 12 ship repairing companies. For these reasons, we hope that the
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House will accept now what has been proposed by the Government as the best course in the most unusual circumstances in which this Bill has returned to us.
4.31 p.m.
Lord MELCHETT: My Lords, I should like to follow the noble Lords, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal and Lord Campbell of Croy and thus, hopefully, avoid going over all the ground that we covered at such length and so often in the previous stages of the Bill. May I say straight away how grateful I am to both noble Lords for the support that they have given to the arrangements reached through the usual channels about the deletion of the independent ship repairing firms from the Bill?
The noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy, raised the matter of the headquarters of British Shipbuilders, which is, as he indicated, something that we have discussed on several previous occasions. However, as I readily acknowledge that I have not been able to give a satisfactory answer before and, I regret to say, I shall not be able to give a satisfactory answer today, I felt that it was a matter to which I should briefly revert. As the noble Lord himself said, several members of the Organising Committee of British Shipbuilders who were to have been appointed to British Shipbuilders will not now be joining the Corporation. In the circumstances, I understand that it was felt that, regrettable though I readily acknowledge this to be, a decision on the choice of location for the headquarters of British Shipbuilders could not properly be made without the benefit of the views of the new members of the Corporation after its formation. As your Lordships know, the headquarters will be in an assisted area with a tradition of shipbuilding, and I am afraid that all I can add to that is that an announcement about the choice of location will be made as soon as possible.
The noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, asked me to elaborate on the Government's reaction to the Examiners' findings which I touched on briefly in my opening remarks. It may be helpful if I take this opportunity just to clarify what I said. Needless to say, the Government are deeply concerned about the Examiners' findings. It would not be seemly nor is it now necessary to

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go over that ground in great detail in respect of this Bill. So far as the Bill is concerned, the findings created a new situation and we had to deal with that situation. However, in the Government's view, the findings raise serious issues for the future. As I have said and as the Government's Statement last Wednesday made clear, the Examiners' findings leave the general position on hybridity in an unsatisfactory and uncertain state. We are therefore carefully considering the implications for future legislation. I hope that noble Lords will accept that, throughout, we have acted in good faith over hybridity and on the basis of the best factual information and legal advice available to the Government.
Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLS: My Lords, I feel that the noble Lord is perhaps being deliberately ambiguous about this. What is unsatisfactory about the Examiners' report? They were asked to report whether or not the Bill was hybrid in order to retain the rights of certain individuals and companies. They reported that it was hybrid. What is unsatisfactory about that from the Government's point of view except that it cuts across what the Government wanted to happen and that they refused doggedly to send it to the Examiners to have it cleared in good enough time for them to have dealt with it earlier? What is unsatisfactory? To leave it in that ambiguous way is not at all satisfactory to me.
Lord MELCHETT: My Lords, if the noble Lord had allowed me to finish, I should not have been in the position of leaving it in what he calls an "ambiguous way". I did not say that the findings were unsatisfactory: what I did say, as the noble Lord will see if he cares to study Hansard, was that the Examiners' findings left the general position on hybridity in an unsatisfactory and uncertain state. As I was saying, it was the Government's belief that, according to the precedents and previous rulings on the facts as we knew them, the Bill was not hybrid. On matters of fact and legal interpretation, the Examiners found in the Government's favour in all the many cases raised except one—the Westminster Dredging Company, one thousandth part of whose turnover is in ship repairing. The Examiners recognised the absurdity
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of this and it is sure to raise problems for legislation in the future.
On the question of the turnover criterion for ship repairing, which the Examiners found not "germane" and therefore a further cause of hybridity, the Government are concerned that the Examiners' approach to what is "germane" may well make it exceedingly difficult in future legislation, not just nationalisation legislation but also other Bills which might risk hybridity, to find criteria which it will be possible to advise with any degree of certainty will not be found hybrid.
This is not a simple matter of whether individual subjects should or should not have a right to plead their cause; the whole hybridity procedure is about the balancing of individual rights against the wider public interest. It has hitherto been recognised that nationalisation measures are, in the wider public interest, not appropriate to Private Bill procedure. The Examiners' findings leave the subject in a state of uncertainty. That was all I was attempting to say when the noble Lord, Lord Harmar-Nicholls, intervened.
Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONE: My Lords, this is really very serious indeed, because what the Examiners really said, if the noble Lord will study again the beginning and end of their report, was that, by any rational criteria, this Bill was an obvious candidate for hydridity but that, because the rights of the subject had been so far eroded that they were compelled to decide on trivialities and arid details, they none the less held that it was still hybrid. However, it was plain as a pikestaff from the beginning and end of the report that, but for the way in which the rights of the subject had been eroded by successive readings, the Examiners would have regarded this as obviously hybrid.
I look upon this as a matter of the utmost seriousness. What the noble Lord, on the instructions of his colleagues, now indicates is that he will erode the rights of the subject still further if he can and destroy the reality of the subject's rights. I must warn him that he will have bitter opposition from this side of the House.
Lord MELCHETT: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for

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his lengthy intervention, but that was not what I said. Again, if I may ask him to read what I said in Hansard, he will see that I merely said that the Examiners' findings left the position slightly unclear and in an unsatisfactory state. If the noble and learned Lord will look again at the Examiners' ruling I believe that he will find that they themselves make it clear in their report, particularly in the final paragraphs, that they regard the position as unsatisfactory. That is all I was attempting to say to your Lordships' House.
Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONE: My Lords, the only reason the Examiners regard it as unsatisfactory is because they say that the hybridity procedures
"were designed by both Houses to ensure that the subject should have a right to plead his cause before them if he could show that their legislation would put him to greater disadvantage than it would put his fellows."
In other words, Parliament has been careful to protect the individual from the majority, from the power of the State or, if you prefer it, from the power of the Government. The Examiners go on to say that the only unsatisfactory part is that,
"As we have indicated above, the rulings of Mr. Speaker King and his predecessor, Mr. Speaker Clifton-Brown, have, we think, almost completely lost sight of the fundamental purposes of the hybridity rule."
If the noble Lord's unfortunate intervention in this matter means anything, it means that the Government intend to erode the rights of the subject still further and these rights the Examiners have said clearly have already been eroded too far. If the noble Lord did not mean that, perhaps he will explain to the House what he does mean.
Lord MELCHETT: My Lords, it clearly does not mean that. As I have said, I suggest that he should look again at my remarks in Hansard. If I may say so, he is getting rather excited about something over which there is absolutely no difference between us. If the phraseology which I used when he was listening to me led him to believe that I was saying what he suggests I was saying, he was mistaken, and I can give him that assurance. There really is no difference between us. All I was attempting to explain was a phrase in my
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opening remarks which the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona, asked me to elaborate on. No more than that. If I may say so, the noble and learned Lord has no justification for reading into what I said something rather more exciting and disturbing than was intended.
Lord HARMAR-NICHOLLS: My Lords, will the noble Lord give way?
Lord MELCHETT: My Lords, I have given way several times on this point and the noble and learned Lord interrupted me at considerable length. I was now intending to turn to another matter, and so I should prefer at this stage not to give way, if possible.
The noble Lord, Lord Orr-Ewing, spoke about the convenience for various Parties of the arrangement that had been reached between the usual channels. He mentioned in particular the convenience for both Front Benches that he could see in this arrangement, the convenience to the House of Commons, and so on. The noble Lord did not mention the convenience, and indeed the vital interests, of the industries affected by the Bill and all those who work in them, and I think that that might have been a consideration that was very much in the forefront of all those who were involved in coming to the agreement that has been reached.
The noble Lord, Lord Inverforth, made an extremely constructive and helpful speech. He may remember—and I think that we referred to this in the past in the course of consideration of the Bill—that he and I first met when I opened the Pallion yard of the State-owned Sunderland Shipbuilders, to which the noble Lord referred in his speech. My noble friend Lord Shinwell may be interested to know that this yard is the most modern covered shipbuilding yard in the world, and I am happy to say that the yard is fulfilling its promise as one of the most efficient and modern in Europe.
I was delighted to hear what the noble Lord, Lord Inverforth, had to say about the ship that has just been delivered to his company. I can certainly, and gladly, give the noble Lord an assurance that the Intervention Fund which he mentioned will not be used to place United Kingdom shipowners at a disadvantage compared with overseas customers. I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his good

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wishes and for his helpful statements, and once again I should like to pay tribute to the good will being shown by the British shipping industry to the British shipbuilding industry.
I am sure that, whatever our differences over this Bill, I shall be expressing the views of the whole House when I give our good wishes for the future to the two industries and to all those who work in them. Our aim is, and always has been, to see a strong and successful British shipbuilding and British aircraft industry.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNE-SIDE: My Lords, before he sits down, will the noble Lord explain, on the question of compensation, why the original arrangements for compensation, introduced when the coal mines were taken over, have not been introduced in this Bill? My recollection is—and I have lived a very long time—that the compensation and the methods used when the coal mines were taken over were considered very satisfactory, even by those people who were against nationalisation. Why under this Bill is compensation not to be based on the same scheme, with the same people examining it, so that there would be less injustice in the compensation schemes offered under this Bill? The noble Lord has not really mentioned compensation at all, and that does not suit me. I want to know why the same system is not going to be used in this case.
Lord MELCHETT: My Lords, as I have now been sat down for some time, it might be appropriate for me to refer the noble Baroness to the appropriate place in the Committee stages of the Bill when this particular subject was gone into at some considerable length and when the analogy with the compensation terms when the coal industry was nationalised was discussed at considerable length by those noble Lords who were taking an interest in the Bill at that stage.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 2) BILL
Brought from the Commons, endorsed with the Certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act 1911; read 1a.

LEGAL ADVICE AND ASSISTANCE (FINANCIAL CONDITIONS) (No. 2) REGULATIONS 1977
4.44 p.m.
The LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord Elwyn-Jones)The LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord Elwyn-Jones) rose to move, That the Legal Advice and Assistance Financial Conditions) (No. 2) Regulations 1977, laid before the House on 15th February, be approved. The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, the two sets of regulations which I am about to invite your Lordships to approve are connected with each other, and with leave I will introduce them together. The Legal Aid (Matrimonial Proceedings) Regulations restrict the grant of legal aid in undefended divorce proceedings in England and Wales. The Legal Advice and Assistance (Financial Conditions) (No. 2) Regulations increase the upper disposable income limit for legal advice and assistance from £35 a week to £42 a week, in this way making advice and assistance more widely available. They are both regulations which I have made under the Legal Aid Act 1974, but which require the approval of each House of Parliament before they can come into operation. They have already been approved in another place, and they now come before your Lordships.
My Lords, these regulations form the final stage in the implementation of my plan, which I first announced in the House in June of last year, to extend so-called special procedure and restrict legal aid in undefended divorce cases. I explained the proposals fairly fully then, but I hope that your Lordships will bear with me while I recapitulate them briefly. The first and major consideration is the overriding need to control the growth of public expenditure on civil legal aid, which has been rising rapidly in recent years. It increased from £11½ million in 1971–72 to £34½ million in the current year, 1976–77. In five years it has thus trebled in money terms and something like doubled in real terms. The Government decided some time ago that this increase could not be allowed to continue, and the White Paper on Public Expenditure, published last February, therefore announced that, by adjustments in the scope of the scheme and other economies, the Government intended to keep expenditure on civil legal aid level in real terms after this financial year. At the same time,

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the White Paper envisaged that expenditure on legal advice and assistance (as opposed to the whole of legal aid for court representation), and on legal aid in criminal cases, would continue to rise in real terms, and be allowed to rise.
Although my paramount objective is to curb public expenditure in this field, there is another consideration which I have very much in mind. I am well aware of the need to improve legal services, and in particular to make the financial conditions of legal aid more generous so that more people can qualify. If possible, I should also like to establish a few more law centres in the areas of greatest need. Resources for these desirable purposes can be released only by reducing expenditure on other legal services. Fortunately, a measure is at hand which by a reform of divorce procedure offers the prospect of making the necessary reduction in the growth of expenditure on civil legal aid without, I believe, loss of necessary legal services to the public. At the same time it offers a fair, though I admit not certain, prospect of also releasing some further resources for desirable improvements.
The main step involved is the extension of the "special procedure". This amounts in most cases to postal divorce, to all types of undefended divorce cases. Under the special procedure, where the registrar is satisfied that an undefended case is straightforward, a decree is granted by the judge without the parties having to attend a hearing in open court. Special procedure already applies to some classes of undefended divorce proceedings, and, as the Solicitor General put it in another place it,
"combines economy with humanity. It has rendered it unnecessary for thousands of people to appear in court and join publicly in the dissection of their dead marriage. It has also reduced the cost of proceedings in a major field of litigation, whether the cost is met by legal aid or by private funds"—[Official Report, Commons, 15/7/76; col. 1134.]
The Matrimonial Causes Rule Committee has now made the necessary amendments to extend the special procedure to all remaining classes of undefended divorce with effect from 1st April of this year. This means that the special procedure will now be available in cases brought on the "unreasonable behaviour"
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ground and where there are children of the marriage under the age of 16. I should, however, make it clear that this will in no way diminish the rights and protections which the law confers on wives and husbands, and on their children. In particular, in every case where there are children under 16 the judge will continue to be bound by the statutory requirement to satisfy himself, before granting a decree absolute, that the arrangements proposed for the children are satisfactory or the best that can be made in the circumstances. He will normally do so by asking the petitioner to discuss the proposed arrangements with him informally in his private room.
My Lords, the effect of these changes which have been made is that in the vast majority of divorce cases which are undefended the court will grant a decree without a hearing in open court. It follows that there will be no need for legal aid for representation at such a hearing. Accordingly, legal aid can be withdrawn from the decree proceedings in all but a few cases. Legal advice and assistance will continue to be needed so as to provide the litigants with all necessary help and guidance in connection with the decree proceedings. Full legal aid will also continue to be needed for the ancillary proceedings concerning children, maintenance and property, which in most cases nowadays are, frankly, the only areas in which the issues arise. Nevertheless, the abolition of the hearing in open court on the decree, and the consequent restriction of legal aid, can be expected to lead to substantial savings in public expenditure.
The special procedure having already been extended, the two sets of regulations now before the House are designed to make the corresponding restriction of legal aid and extension of legal advice. The Matrimonial Proceedings Regulations provide, in effect, that full legal aid is no longer to be available in any undefended divorce cases which are brought under the special procedure. Regulation 2 provides that legal aid, as opposed to legal advice and assistance, may be given for the proceedings leading to the decree only where the case is defended, or where it is heard in open court (which may occasionally happen where there is some technical or evidential difficulty), or where the applicant suffers from some physical or

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mental incapacity which makes it impracticable for him to proceed without legal aid.
Regulation 3 provides that full legal aid will continue to be available wherever necessary in all cases for ancillary questions, which I have mentioned, concerning maintenance, property and the arrangements for the children. It also provides that legal aid will continue to be available for applications for leave to present a petition for divorce before the expiration of three years from the date of the marriage, for, as I expect your Lordships know, a petition may be presented in those circumstances, within three years, only where a judge is satisfied that the case is one of exceptional hardship suffered by the petitioner or of exceptional depravity on the part of the respondent. Legal aid will also continue to be available for an application for an injunction, or for the purpose of making or opposing any other application, or for satisfying the court on any other matter, which raises a substantial question for determination by the court.
In thus restricting the grant of legal aid for the decree proceedings in undefended cases brought under the special procedure, it has never been my intention to deprive divorcing couples of the advice and assistance which clearly are so necessary at a time of great personal stress and anxiety. I thought that I had made this clear last June. Nevertheless, I have received a number of representations against my proposals based on the misunderstanding that I had proposed to withdraw legal advice and assistance as well as legal aid. This is not the case, and the Financial Conditions Regulations now before your Lordships will help to ensure that all necessary help will be given to litigants who are in the unhappy position of seeking divorces. Under the statutory advice and assistance scheme, the solicitor will be able to provide all the necessary preliminary advice to his client, undertake negotiations with the other spouse on the various matters to be settled, draft the divorce petition and its necessary supporting documents and advise his client how to present them to the court and obtain the decree.
In order to ensure as far as possible that those who would formerly have been eligible for legal aid will in future be eligible for advice and assistance, the
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Financial Conditions Regulations increase the upper disposable income limit for legal advice and assistance from £35 a week to £42 a week, in that way bringing it into line with the corresponding limit for legal aid. That is all that they do, and I hope that I may confidently assume that this increase in the scope of the advice and assistance scheme will be welcomed in all quarters of the House. I have also taken two other steps to ensure the continuing availability of necessary legal services in undefended divorce, which I ought to mention to complete the picture.
The first also concerns legal advice and assistance. Under the Legal Aid Act 1974, the solicitor cannot give advice and assistance in excess of £25-worth of work without the approval of the area committee of the Law Society. Hitherto, prior authority has had to be obtained in every case to exceed the £25 limit. However, I have now modified this requirement by other regulations, which are not before the House, which have enabled me to authorise the Law Society to notify solicitors in advance that approval will be given for work to be done up to £45-worth in undefended divorce cases where the work includes drafting the petition and supporting documents with a view to obtaining the decree. The £45 in itself is not an absolute ceiling. As at present, there will be no particular financial limit on the work which can be done where the area committee is satisfied in advance that the work is necessary. But the decision to allow up to £45-worth of work to be done in these divorce cases without prior authority will, I believe, save time and expense, both for the solicitor and for the legal aid administration. It will also indirectly, but significantly, help the clients.
My Lords, the other point which I should mention concerns court fees. At present, the court fees of divorce litigants who are legally aided are paid out of the legal aid fund. The effect of restricting legal aid, if no countervailing measures were taken, would be that the litigants would normally have to pay the court fees out of their own pockets. The fee on presenting the petition is £16, and on issuing a notice to proceed is £10. Plainly these are amounts that we could not require all litigants who are eligible for legal aid to pay. I have accordingly amended the Matrimonial Causes Fee

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Order so as to provide that the fees shall not be payable by litigants in divorce cases who are receiving supplementary benefit, family income supplement or legal advice and assistance. The existing discretion to remit court fees in any other case where to require payment would cause hardship will also continue.
My Lords, I apologise for describing these regulations at such length, especially in view of the importance of the matters for discussion which are to follow, but as they form part of a plan which aroused a good deal of interest and some initial controversy in the legal profession, I thought it right to give a full explanation. They have been prepared in close consultation with all relevant judicial and professional authorities, including particularly the Law Society, which administers the civil legal aid scheme. Indeed, I should like to pay tribute here to the help which the Law Society have given in preparing the implementation of my proposals. My Advisory Committee on Legal Aid has examined the whole scheme in detail, and in their 26th Annual Report they concluded that in all the circumstances the restriction of legal aid in undefended divorce on the lines I propose is the only acceptable course.
In conclusion, my Lords, these regulations are part of a scheme which offers the best prospect of bringing expenditure on civil legal aid within manageable limits without damage to the public, and the only hope of releasing resources to make improvements in legal aid where they are most needed. The regulations are the result of long and careful consideration and consultation, and I commend them to the House.
Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEY: My Lords, may I ask whether——
Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONE: My Lords, the noble Baroness may not do so at this stage. The Question must be put before anything else is done.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I venture to think that the noble Baroness was going to use the well-known formula, "Before the noble and learned Lord sits down…" Let us not dwell too much on technicalities. If the noble Baroness would like to intervene I shall gladly give way.
Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEY: My Lords, I should like to ask the noble and learned Lord whether this raising of the allowances from £25 to £45 would help in this particular instance. One is naturally concerned at the great increase in cost of legal aid. I am always interested in it. I heard of a Crown Court the other day where there were 18 adjournments, which is where a lot of the money goes. Would this extra £45 help, before it comes to the court, to reduce that figure?
The LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I think that the provision I have made would be helpful in that case. If the noble Baroness has a particular case in mind perhaps she will let me know. I am sorry that she has got me and herself in trouble with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham. Perhaps he will forgive us both in the fullness of time.
Moved, That the Legal Advice and Assistance (Financial Conditions) (No. 2) Regulations 1977, laid before the House on 15th February, be approved.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
5.3 p.m.
The Earl of MANSFIELD: My Lords, according to my recollection, the noble and learned Lord moved the Legal Advice and Assistance (Financial Conditions) (No. 2) Regulations but I think he has spoken to everything on the Order Paper which does not affect the noble and Learned Lord, Lord McCluskey. Perhaps it would be convenient if I do the same, and possibly go one further step by saying that I shall not bother the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, because, as I understand it, the regulations applying to Scotland bring that part of the United Kingdom into line with the rest of the country so far as these particular provisions are concerned.
Baroness PHILLIPS: My Lords, may I intervene? If we are to be precise in the Motions before the House, may I say that I do not think that the noble and learned Lord referred to the order concerning the judges. The noble Earl has just said, "all the orders".
The Earl of MANSFIELD: My Lords, if we are to be really precise, I am not "learned". The "Number of Judges" refers to Scotland; and I was being

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precise. There is no doubt that when the noble and learned Lord, last June, announced the extension of the scheme originally propounded by my noble and learned friend Lord Hailsham and which has been described as "Post Office divorces" over a rather wider field—that is to say, in cases where, for instance, there are children of the family under 16—there was, I will not say "uproar" but considerable disquiet in a number of circles. They were not only legal circles but also included a number of worthy organisations who have the care and welfare of persons who find themselves in these unpleasing circumstances when their marriages break down. It is fair to say that that disquiet was not allayed until probably after the turn of the year. I think that the proceedings in another place and the very full account which the noble and learned Lord has given us this afternoon of what the regulations are trying to achieve will, to a large extent, allay whatever fears may still exist.
Taking the Matrimonial Proceedings Regulations—because they are really at the heart of the issue—I think the fears were that either a potential petitioner or a respondent (in fact, either of the parties to a marriage which has broken down) could, so it appeared at first blush, find themselves possibly without the advice or assistance of a solicitor at probably the one time in their lives when they need it most. It was that which caused the disquiet.
It is, I think, a matter of satisfaction, first of all, that the £25 limit is to be in certain circumstances raised to £45. It should be remembered that even if the advice which is given goes beyond that limit, it can be extended if the appropriate legal aid committee is consulted. If a person who falls within the financial criteria is in need of legal assistance, either as a petitioner or possibly, more importantly, as a respondent—and it may be that the noble and learned Lord did not mention that—he or she can get all the assistance they need always provided the local committee are satisfied that they need it. That, I think, is an advance.
So far as the actual regulations are concerned, as I appreciate, Regulation No. 2 is perfectly straightforward. I assume that subsection (2), the type of situation which is envisaged where a petition is directed to be heard in open
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court, would be some sort of case where there may be doubt as to the domicile of the petitioner or whether the court was competent to hear the petition at all. I do not know; and perhaps the noble and learned Lord will reassure me on that point. So far as the Matrimonial Proceedings Regulation is concerned, it is vital that at any stage in proceedings where it is necessary for a court to do more than merely pronounce the marriage to be at an end, to dissolve it, the petitioner or respondent should be able to obtain legal assistance.
There is an interesting provision at the end of the Legal Aid (Matrimonial Proceedings) Regulations which says almost everything that anybody could want to hear. It says:
"…for the purpose of making or opposing any other application, or satisfying the court on any other matter, which raises a substantial question for determination by the court."
The efficacy of that provision will depend entirely on who ever it is who has to decide whether the question for determination by the court is substantial. One wonders who is to be the person who makes that decision and what the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor proposes to do, hopefully, to ensure that whoever does exercise that discretion exercises it in what I might call a benign fashion; because it is really the last reassurance which may be needed (if any is needed) that the position of people who are the subject of broken marriages is being cared for; but it could be detracted from if a rather hard line were to be taken by those who decide it Subject to what I have said—and I have raised only two very small points—I would imagine that this is a matter which we could say has now been successfully resolved.
5.10 p.m.
Baroness PHILLIPS: My Lords, we are all grateful to the noble and learned Lord for presenting these three orders to us, and of course we would all agree with the idea behind them; namely, to control public expenditure in legal aid and, indeed, simplify regulations. The noble and learned Lord explained everything very satisfactorily. I have only one or two reservations. He said—I think I quote his words correctly—that he was instituting a few more law centres. Since the regulations come into effect fairly soon, I

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am a little concerned whether we are going to give a great deal more work to the county court officials, and whether they are ready for this.
To the ordinary layman, the forms with which they are presented in any civil or, indeed, criminal litigation are always rather frightening. This was where legal aid and the solicitor were so invaluable. I am sure that the county court officials will be helpful. I am a little concerned that maybe we are ahead of this in that they will suddenly have a great avalanche of work. Will they be prepared for it, my Lords? We know that the noble and learned Lord is a humane and compassionate man and will recognise that this is a situation in life, among others, where one needs help, advice and sympathy. Therefore, I hope that he will bear this in mind when considering the implications of these orders.
5.12 p.m.
Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONE: My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Mansfield has dealt with the matter so fully, I do not want to prolong this debate, except for one or two matters. I will tell the noble and learned Lord frankly that I am not wholly reassured by what is being done. I should like to tell him, roughly speaking, why. Obviously in so far as he is shifting in effect from legal aid during the divorce proceedings to legal advice and assistance before them, I do not suppose that many people would unduly quarrel with what he is doing. Of course in itself that does not save any money. Legal aid and advice before the proceedings begin, on the assumption that the divorce is of the postal, undefended or unopposed kind, is very important because that fact will determine whether the right issues are formulated to the court, whether the petition is going to be opposed—and of course if it is opposed he is not saving any money at all, because legal aid continues to apply—and whether the right issues are going to be brought forward after the hearing.
If legal advice and assistance is going to be given on a scale which is adequate to ensure that not an undue proportion of new defended divorces appear on the scene, and the right issues are brought
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before the court at, during and after the hearing, no one is going to complain. But if in fact that is going to take place I question how much money the noble and learned Lord is going to save. If, on the other hand, he is going to skimp on that stage, then he is going to find that more divorces are going to be opposed because the wrong points are made and because litigants in person have a tendency to ask for too much from their opponents—especially when they are embittered spouses—and he is going to find that the scheme is going to be wasteful of judicial time and not a particularly money-saving device.
I was concerned by what seemed to me to be his very easy assumption that it is a good arrangement for a circuit judge or a High Court judge, whoever is trying the case, to have a private interview in his chambers with one of the spouses, or perhaps both, without the assistance on either side of legal representatives. My experience of divorce proceedings is that legal advice in that conversation is almost always productive of time saving, and ensures that justice is done far better than anything else. A judge left to himself to have a private conversation with one of the litigants is not always likely, especially if his list is crowded, to identify the right points or to see that the right answer is given. These applications in chambers involve very difficult questions, even where the matter is not opposed, as to the rights of children who are not before the courts and not able to speak for themselves in a great number of cases, and as to the rights of women who are not always very good judges of their own financial requirements at the moment at which divorce is obtained. I have doubts as to whether this is humane, necessary or advantageous.
I am more than confirmed in my doubts when the noble and learned Lord frankly concedes that one of his objects in saving the money is to set up a number of new law centres. I am not opposed to law centres as such, but he is taking away money from something where the need has been established for something which is necessarily discriminatory, because the new law centres will be in only a very few areas of the country and will not be generally applicable to the community as a whole. If one is going to save money, the method which is generally

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applicable and in force should be kept and the new experimental and discriminatory centres—at any rate in their first stages discriminatory—ought to be held over until the time when the financial situation is easier. I believe his priorities are wrong. I know that this order is going to be passed. It would be utterly wrong for this House to vote against a set of measures of this kind; it would throw the business of Government into confusion if one did so. But I must say to the noble and learned Lord that I realise he has probably acted under pressure from the financial authorities in the Government, with whom I also have sympathy, but I do not at the moment go along with what he is doing.
5.17 p.m.
Lord MORRIS: My Lords, I am confused about paragraph (ii) of Regulation 2; namely, about who may direct the petition in undefended divorce or separation and in what circumstances, and who may submit a prayer that such a direction be given. Similarly, I feel very strongly that the noble and learned Lord's heady reasonableness hides what I believe will be the horror that will result from these new regulations. Let us assume that a woman goes along in an urban area to a busy solicitor in order to obtain a divorce and is handed a lot of complicated forms. I have seen these forms and they are complicated. Let us suppose that she discusses these in the local "boozer" with her friends and then sends them back to her solicitor. The solicitor will probably hand them over to an articled clerk saying, "Deal with these". The forms will probably be sent back to the court improperly or erroneously filled in, and pieces of paper will be going back and forth for a very long time. I am certain that it will confuse the situation. Similarly, will the court officials be properly geared to handle the petitions as and when they come flowing into the courts?
5.19 p.m.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am grateful to your Lordships for what has been on the whole a welcome response to these orders, save for the qualifications which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone,
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has indicated. I assure him and other noble Lords that we have entered into most careful and prolonged consultations with all concerned with the carrying out of these proposals. The judges registrars and the officials of the courts have all assured me that they think that this "package", if I may so describe it, is a workable one and that it will be saving in public expenditure, which is of course one of the main objects of the whole exercise. I can assure those who still have their doubts that we believe that this "package" will not effect hardship or difficulty to those who are in the stressful period of seeking and bringing divorce proceedings.
I was asked some specific questions in a helpful speech from the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield. As to the circumstances in which a case would be directed to be heard in open court, I think the noble Lord himself identified them—cases, for instance, where the registrar was not satisfied, on the petitioner's affidavit, that she was entitled to a decree at all or, for example, as I think he suggested, where there was an unresolved question of the domicile, or where in a behaviour case the registrar might not be satisfied that the acts complained of amounted to intolerable conduct. That is the kind of circumstance that would result in the proceedings going to open court with full legal aid.
Then with regard to the provision in the general terms of Regulation 3 and the culminating words, of course the decision as to whether legal aid would be granted would fall to be made by the Legal Aid Committees of The Law Society; but The Law Society may, and often does, express general views about when it should be granted and I would expect a reasonable liberal interpretation of those words which provide so much discretion. I am extremely grateful to my noble friend Lady Phillips for her expression of reasonable satisfaction with what I have suggested, knowing, as I do, her intense personal concern for the welfare and happiness of all concerned in this field. I have had discussions personally with representatives of court staffs and registrars and they have satisfied me that they can cope with the additional work that will arise. I believe they will be able to cope. I do not think the burden on court staff will be affected a great deal by the additional procedures which I have indicated.

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We are supplying a booklet for the guidance of petitioners in person, an explanatory leaflet, a specimen form of petition with notes for guidance and notices which the court will send to the petitioner, telling her at each stage of the proceedings what to do next. We are reasonably satisfied that those pro formas, plus the assistance the parties will get from the officers of the court, should enable them to cope satisfactorily.
On the question of savings, to which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham, referred, I believe there will be a substantial saving of money because the very simplification of procedure with which we are concerned here reduces the amount of legal services which need to be rendered. The lawyers will need to do less, even though they provide all the necessary preliminary advice and assistance, so there should be a corresponding reduction in costs. As I have said, I hope the savings will be such that not only shall I be able to make a significant contribution to the reduction in public expenditure—which I apprehend the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham, would enthusiastically support—but I would hope, also, to be able to save a little to raise somewhat the level at which legal aid becomes available, and for the setting up of a limited number of law centres in areas of the greatest need where they can render the greatest service.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

LEGAL AID (MATRIMONIAL PROCEEDINGS) REGULATIONS 1977
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR rose to move, That the Legal Aid (Matrimonial Proceedings) Regulations 1977, laid before the House on 15th February, be approved. The noble and learned Lord said: I should like, if I may, formally to move the second set of regulations which are my responsibility; namely, the Legal Aid (Matrimonial Proceedings) Regulations 1977.
Moved, That the Legal Aid (Matrimonial Proceedings) Regulations 1977, laid before the House on 15th February, be approved.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

LEGAL ADVICE AND ASSISTANCE (SCOTLAND) (FINANCIAL CONDITIONS) (NO. 2) REGULATIONS 1977
5.27 p.m.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLAND (Lord McCluskey)The SOLICITOR-GENERAL for SCOTLAND (Lord McCluskey) rose to move, That the Legal Advice and Assistance (Scotland) (Financial Conditions) (No. 2) Regulations, 1977, laid before the House on 15th February, be approved. The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. In view of the noble Earl's notice of intention not to speak separately on the Scottish regulations, and because he is quite right in saying that the purpose of these regulations is to raise the upper income limit of eligibility for legal advice and assistance in Scotland, so as to keep it the same in both jurisdictions, I shall confine myself to a formal moving of the Motion. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Legal Advice and Assistance (Scotland) (Financial Conditions) (No. 2) Regulations, 1977, laid before the House on 15th February, be approved.—(Lord McCluskey.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

MAXIMUM NUMBER OF JUDGES ORDER 1977
Lord McCLUSKEY Lord McCLUSKEY rose to move, That the draft Maximum Number of Judges Order 1977, laid before the House on 15th February, be approved. The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I rise to move the Motion standing in my name—the last one on the Order Paper. This order deals solely with Scotland and is made under Section 1 of the Administration of Justice Act, 1968. That Act fixed the maximum number of judges in the Court of Session at 19 but provided that that maximum could be increased by Order in Council, subject to prior approval by Resolution of each House of Parliament. The number was in fact increased to 20 at the end of 1972, and the purpose of my Motion is to secure the approval of this House to a further increase.
The background to this Motion is the continuing increase in the volume of work

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entering the Court of Session and the High Court of Justiciary: that is the Criminal Court. The indications are that this trend will continue. In the Court of Session the number of civil actions initiated has increased by fully 45 per cent. since 1972. Much of the growth is attributable to divorce actions and these, following the coming into operation in Scotland on 1st January of the Divorce (Scotland) Act 1976, are likely to show further substantial increases, particularly if the experience in England and Wales following their comparable legislation, which became effective in 1971, is repeated to any degree in Scotland—as we expect it to be.
As to criminal work, all the Judges of the Court of Session in Scotland are also Lords Commissioners of Justiciary and are responsible for the whole of the original criminal work of the High Court in Edinburgh and on circuit and for the work of the Court of Criminal Appeal. There, too, there has been an apparently inexorable upward trend in business, both in the number of trials and the duration of hearings. The effect may best be illustrated by the number of working days on which judges have had to be provided for High Court duty on criminal cases. In 1972 the total number of "judge days" was 478; in 1976 it had risen to 598—an increase of some 25 per cent. I think I can say it is not just a question of pure numbers, because as the volume of work increases there is a geometrical rather than an arithmetical progression in the difficulties of making the necessary arrangements, especially in relation to criminal business.
It is worthy of note that this substantial increase in business has largely been absorbed hitherto without producing an unacceptable level of delay. This has been possible only through skilful reorganisation by the Lord President of the Court of Session and his colleagues in making the working arrangements in the Supreme Courts better, and in making more efficient use of judicial time. But recently it has become apparent that saturation point has been reached. At the present level of business, strains have become evident and there is little or no room to cater for the further increase which now seems to be imminent. Indeed, because of the need to employ Inner House judges—that is, appeal judges—on Outer House work, it has often been impossible to have both
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Divisions of the Inner House sitting at once, although there is a continuing body of civil appeals; and sometimes, when Inner House judges are also engaged in the disposal of criminal business, it has not been possible to form any Division in the Inner House for appeals at all.
The position is further affected by the need to allow for the many extraneous duties undertaken by the judges in the exercise of their public responsibilities. The Lord President and the Lord Justice Clerk have, among other responsibilities, special extra-judicial responsibilities in Europe and in Scotland. Most of the other judges act as chairmen of or participate in public tribunals, commissions, and committees of many kinds. One, for example, is the whole-time chairman of the Scottish Law Commission. Another is chairman of the Employment Appeal Tribunal, which at the moment occupies about half of his time. Yet another judge is heavily occupied in a comprehensive review of criminal procedure, which has been in operation for some years and still has further substantial areas to consider. Without going into detail, other judges are involved in work of this kind. Indeed, the judges render a great public service outwith their formal duties on the Bench. The complement also has to allow for absences through sickness or other emergency, and recently such contingencies have resulted in the cancellation of allocated business.
There has undoubtedly been an improvement in recent years in the organisation of work both in the Court of Session and in the High Court—the criminal court. I can assure your Lordships that the Lord President and his colleagues, who are responsible for this, are anxious to make further improvements if these can be identified, but we have now reached the point where I have no alternative but to recommend the present order to the House. I must, however, underline that the present aim, shared by the Lord President, is to make only one additional appointment immediately. Allowing for this and the possibility of further reorganisation, it may be unnecessary for some considerable time to fill the second post which the order would allow. That would be dependent on experience and a demonstrable need for such a second post. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the draft Maximum Number of Judges Order 1977, laid before the House on 15th February, be approved.—(Lord McCluskey.)
5.33 p.m.
The Earl of MANSFIELD: My Lords, it behoves me, I believe, to gang warily in this respect because, for the benefit of the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, in this connection not only am I not learned; I am not even qualified. So with that little stricture in mind, I preface my few remarks. There is no doubt about it that when this order was debated in the other place it aroused no little fury, one might even say contumely. Indeed, the matter was pushed to a Division, so ferociously was it fought, and the Government managed to win through only by the casting vote of the Chairman. I have therefore considered deeply what we should do about this matter in your Lordships' House, but I think that on this occasion—and I say this for the benefit of the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey—we will be able to fulfil our public duties without necessarily pressing this matter in the way that it was pressed in another place.
I went along to the Library when this matter first came to my notice to see what was the personnel position North of the Tweed and I found that, so far as advocates are concerned, the number of advocates in Scotland is rather fewer than the total number of members of the Bar at the Liverpool local Bar. I do not say that in any sense of denigration; there is nobody who has more admiration than I for the quality of Scottish advocacy and, indeed, judgeship. I draw this parallel only to show that it is a much smaller and, dare I say it, more cosy world than perhaps we know of in England.
One of the matters which occupied a considerable time in the other place was the fact that, apparently, the Scottish Court of Session does not sit on Mondays and certain of my honourable friends there regarded this as a thoroughly idle and dissolute hangover from the last century. In those days, all Scottish judges of the Court of Session were landed gents and it seems that they took Mondays to get from their estates to Edinburgh, in order to commence their judicial duties on Tuesdays. Nevertheless, it is fair to say that
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the Lord Advocate did not produce any very pressing argument as to why the Court of Session should not now, in the last quarter of the twentieth century, commence to do its work on Mondays, and I wonder whether the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, might be able to put up a rather better performance in that regard. I am very well aware that a few judges sit on Saturday mornings for two hours to hear undefended divorces, but I am not sure that that is quite the same thing, and one wonders whether the best use is being made of judge time.
The point of these remarks is not entirely frivolous. In the last clutch of orders we were helping the noble and learned Lord, possibly, in the opinion of my noble and learned friend, to be what I might call penny-wise. Are we now sanctioning the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, and the Secretary of State for Scotland to be pound foolish, by allowing an increase in the establishment of judges beyond the Tweed from no fewer than 20 to 22? What does the noble Lord think is the cost which will fall on the shoulders of the taxpayer through this increase? May I also just say this? In England we have been used for very many years—certainly, since the days when I started to practice—to undefended divorces, at least, being heard by county court judges who are perfectly able, sitting as special commissioners, to discharge that function. I should be the very last to say that Scottish law must follow English law. Nevertheless, divorce law in Scotland is moving along the same track.
The new Act, which I believe comes into force on 1st April—the noble and learned Lord will correct me if I am wrong—will bring Scotland into line for the first time, and will produce a much needed reform over the breakdown of a marriage and the consequent divorce. But has any thought ever been given to undefended divorces being tried, for instance, by sheriffs who seem to me to be very excellent judges in their own sphere? Is it necessary for the equivalent of a High Court judge to hear undefended divorces, especially when such matters as, what we call in England, collusion and so on will not enter into the sphere of things after April? I hope that I have not done more than enter one or two caveats on what is proposed in this order. Subject to that, I am quite sure that the noble and learned

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Lord, Lord McCluskey, can satisfy us that this extra expenditure is well merited.
6.39 p.m.
Lord McCLUSKEY: My Lords, the number of advocates is smaller in Scotland and, undoubtedly, that leads to what friends would call a more cosy atmosphere, and to what others would describe as a somewhat incestuous atmosphere. May I just demonstrate that it works in this way? I had the duty of conducting what turned out to be the longest criminal trial in Scotland since the outbreak of the Second World War. It lasted for 18 days, which was exceptionally long. But I think that, partly because of the organisation of our business and the manner in which we work, we get through our work rather more swiftly than our colleagues South of the Tweed.
In relation to the remarks of the noble Earl about a thoroughly idle and dissolute hangover from the last century, I think that the Member who drew attention to these matters was the one who succeeded the noble Lord, Lord Home, and who is an expert on these matters. He drew attention to the fact that the court does not sit on a Monday. The Court of Session has never sat on a Monday, except perhaps in emergencies. It sits on Saturday mornings when five to six judges hear, as the noble Earl mentioned, a number of divorce cases. The criminal courts do, of course, sit on Mondays. The matter has come up for consideration many times over the years. The Faculty of Advocates and practitioners generally are strongly opposed to the court sitting on Mondays. There are many difficulties in the way.
I should not like noble Lords to believe that the court could not sit on a Monday, but it would bring fewer benefits than might be imagined. It would be less easy to introduce the change than might readily be thought. Certainly we would be bound to lose Saturday mornings, which are extremely convenient for the hearing of divorces, particularly for people and witnesses who cannot readily attend during the week. As I say, it would be extremely unpopular with practitioners. Mondays are used by that same small body of advocates in Scotland to attend sheriff courts and tribunals, to sit as chairmen of tribunals and also to consult and prepare for the cases which they deal with
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on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays. In these circumstances, I do not think that there would be many supporters for such a change in Scotland. Comparisons with England are perhaps too liable to mislead. In any event, the noble Earl will be aware, as we all are, that the Royal Commission on Legal Services in Scotland is considering, among other things, the structure of courts and general arrangements for the supply of legal services, and it will no doubt take these remarks into account.
In relation to divorce, may I say that the new Act has been in force in Scotland since the beginning of the year. So far only one divorce has come before the courts but there is expected to be a substantial number in about two months' time. Of course, the question as to whether divorces should be heard in the sheriff court has been argued over many times. The short answer at the moment is that the sheriff courts have enough business to handle and could not handle the 13,000, 14,000 or 15,000 divorces that they would be liable to get if divorces were sent to the sheriff court. My Lords, I hope that the considerations which have been put forward have been adequately answered. On the matter of cost, I should say that the cost of one additional judge, including his salary and the salary of his clerk but all before tax, is some £30,000.
On Question, Motion agreed 10.

HOMELESS YOUNG PEOPLE
5.43 p.m.
The Lord Bishop of LONDON The Lord Bishop of LONDON rose to ask Her Majesty's Government what action has been taken by them to implement the recommendations of the Government Working Group on Homeless Young People, published in August 1976. The right reverend Prelate said: My Lords, in asking the Unstarred Question standing in my name, I am all too well aware of the restrictions which are placed upon me by the nature of this short debate and the necessity, therefore, to be highly selective in the issues which I seek to raise. If, therefore, I disappoint some of those who share with me a like concern about the plight of the young homeless, because I have omitted this or that aspect of the

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problem, I would assure them that I have done so only because of the limitations of the Question and the nature of the discussion. I hope that other noble Lords will fill some of the gaps which I have left.
I want also to say from the outset that I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, is to reply to my Unstarred Question. His personal concern over homelessness is well known. The outcome of this debate will, I hope, give him further encouragement and justification to ensure that action is taken to remedy a problem which we all know is of great personal concern to him. My Unstarred Question asks what action has been taken to implement the recommendations of the Government Working Group on Homeless Young People. Resisting the temptation to initiate a wide-ranging debate on the urgent and complex nature of homeless ness, I shall endeavour to restrict myself to the terms of this Unstarred Question.
The Report of the Government Working Party was published in August 1976. In answer to a Question which was tabled in this House by the noble Lord, Lord Janner, on 11th October 1976, the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, replied that Government Departments were examining what could be done to help homeless young people, short of incurring additional expenditure, and were going to consult with local authority associations. The House was told that five Government Departments were involved and that a considerable amount of work would be entailed. The noble Lord was not at that stage in a position to say when they would report or what recommendations could be implemented. That was five months ago. Since then there has been no information of progress and no indication as to what will be done, save for a letter from Mr. Deakins, the Joint Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the Department of Health and Social Security, addressed to the Campaign for Single Homeless People. Hence this Unstarred Question, which asks Her Majesty's Government to tell us what has been done since last October within the restrictions of expenditure, for it is the conviction of many experts in this field that there is a great deal that could and should be done which will cost little or nothing.
I refer first to the most important issue, that of accommodation. In her important review of the situation, Needs and Provision for Young Single Homeless People, Sarah Waugh points out that the needs of young, homeless people, complex as they are, should be made the responsibility of local government as part of a comprehensive housing service and that the confusion regarding statutory responsibility for the homeless young is a major difficulty in the way of those agencies that want to tackle the problem. There is a no-man's-land in which, unless they are in care, young people over 17 are nobody's responsibility. This is a serious and dangerous state of affairs, since the consequences can so easily be expensive and socially disruptive.
I hope, therefore, that the Minister may be able to tell the House that vigorous action is being planned on a number of fronts. First, that maximum use is being made by local authorities, and through the agency of housing associations, of short-life property. Secondly, that accommodation unsuitable for families or which is hard to let, such as upper storeys of tower blocks, or city centre flats, or flats which are too noisy for families but unacceptable for the young, is being made available. Next, that vacant private sector housing is by agreement through the local authorities made more readily available for young homeless people.
Next, that restrictions on council house tenants and mortgagors to take lodgers should not be as unnecessarily severe as they are at present. Next, that lodging schemes operated by local authority lodging officers and other agencies should be set up. Next, that restrictions on multi occupation should not be so severe as to discourage conversion or maintenance of this form of tenure. Next, that more short-stay hostels should be provided and that the Housing Corporation should be encouraged to give help in this respect.
Perhaps at this point I may be allowed to particularise since I am specially concerned about this type of accommodation in the centre of London. At this moment there are two projects which present great possibility and which could so easily be lost by reason of lack of funds. One is the YMCA building in Endell Street at the top of Shaftesbury Avenue. The

977
YMCA will not need it when they move to their new buildings in Tottenham Court Road in a short time. It presents excellent short-term and long-term accommodation. The building is in the hands of the Official Receiver and could be obtained for a comparatively low price. I am assured that if the capital could be found for the purchase of this hostel, the YMCA would be able to manage the general running costs and the building could be used for emergency and for short-stay accommodation. It would be a shocking thing if this building, so well suited for the purpose and on an unrivalled site, were to be lost and I hope Her Majesty's Government will take direct responsibility to ensure that that does not happen.
The second project ready here and now to be grasped is the Methodist Church training centre buildings in Birkenhead Street just across the road from King's Cross, St. Pancras and Euston. Here again are premises admirably suited for short-term accommodation for young people. Can we, I ask, expect concern and help from Her Majesty's Government in obtaining and equipping these admirably suited buildings? It is in situations such as these that voluntary agencies are taking the initiative and they look for, and they feel that they have not received from Her Majesty's Government, the encouragement that they would welcome. Should such opportunities be lost it would be a terrible reproach to us all. Finally in the area of accommodation I would ask Her Majesty's Government if they have encouraged the sharing among social service agencies of the metro-political counties of the funding of accommodation for special purposes, for in this way the cost of young people's hostels could be shared and minimised across county boundaries.
So much for accommodation itself. The Working Party's Report also makes a number of other recommendations which would not be costly, and I ask briefly what is being done about them. What action has been taken over recommendation 26 regarding the matching of employment and accommodation? It seems that there is a lack of knowledge of the pattern of mobility of young people. We cannot really get to grips with a housing policy until we know the relationship between job and housing. Has anything been done to study this aspect,
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and have regional economic planning councils been involved in it?
In recommendations 21 and 23 the report refers to the service which local supplementary benefit offices can provide, so I ask whether the staffs of these offices have received sufficient instruction about the places to which homeless young people can appropriately be referred so that they may get proper guidance and encouragement, and are there guarantees that the voucher system is being employed to protect young people without encouraging them to go to places where they will be persuaded to think of themselves as part of a permanent or semi-permanent homeless scene.
Recommendation 24 refers to the importance of bringing the schools into the process of preparing children for the dangers ahead in this area. One of the most important elements in the whole situation is to dissuade young people from coming into the great urban centres, and to teach them that they will not find their salvation there when they arrive. Such information, coupled with training about the rights of young people in the realm of housing and welfare, would do nothing but good and I hope we may hear that action has been taken.
While on the subject of education I should like to draw the attention of the House to recommendations 12 to 20 regarding the safeguards so clearly necessary in the light of the Gleaves case. It may be that if we are able to see the programme "Goodbye Longfellow Road" on ITV tonight we shall be alerted still further to the needs for safeguards. I hope Her Majesty's Government will be able to assure us that action is being taken in this area of the problem, and especially that local authorities have been invited, as recommendation 13 suggests, to appoint senior officers to deal with personal information about those engaged in work with young people; that recommendation 18 is accepted, which suggests that there should be consultation with local associations with a view to issuing guidance on good practice in hostel management; that recommendation 19, that the social services departments should arrange for the visiting of commercial hostels, is accepted: and recommendation 20, that any public or charitable body which is asked for assistance by an organisation

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should examine and re-examine the credentials of applicants before providing assistance.
Finally, I come to the vexed question of information. On this point the report was quite specific. It said, in paragraph 11 of its recommendations:
"We have invited the Voluntary Services Unit of the Home Office to consider making a grant for the establishment, by a voluntary group, of information services at Euston railway station and Victoria Coach Station."
The noble Lord, Lord Janner, on 11th October, and I, on 20th December last year, pressed the Minister to persuade British Rail to help more effectively and enthusiastically in the provision of this essential service. In answer the Minister was able to give little encouragement or hope.
On 20th December I asked a similar question and was told by the Minister that British Rail had agreed to provide facilities for making information leaflets available. He added that there were Citizens' Advice Bureaux at St. Philomena's Hostel and the Friends House, all nearby, and a car patrol service. My information is that there has not been a Citizens' Advice Bureau outside Euston Station for some time and that St. Philomena's and the Friends House do not advertise an advice service. The car patrol has been discontinued since it was not proving effective, and I am told that British Rail has not agreed to make leaflets available at their information centre at Euston or elsewhere. I should be grateful for any information the Minister may have, for no doubt he is aware that the voluntary bodies were told early in the negotiations that British Rail would not negotiate directly with them, and consequently negotiations have had to be through the good offices of the Department of Health and Social Services and the Voluntary Services Unit.
I must confess that I was much disappointed by the reply given to a Written Question which I tabled on 17th February, when I was told that the £56,700 needed for the information booths could not be provided from the £317,000 still available to the VSU for distribution within the current financial year. I was not able to be in the House yesterday when the noble Lord, Lord Janner, asked his
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Question but I have read, also with profound disappointment, the reply which the noble Lord had to make. I hope that Her Majesty's Government will appreciate that nothing can replace the personal contact and advice such as would be provided by information kiosks staffed by trained and informed personnel: and I hope that Her Majesty's Government will acknowledge the anger which has been generated by the continued insensitivity and stubbornness shown by British Rail towards those who are trying to alleviate a very real social evil.
I apologise for taking so much of your Lordships' time, but I feel justified in doing so because we are here dealing with a situation which is fraught with danger and the possibilities of great personal suffering. Unless we deal more effectively with it we shall lay upon our society an even greater disruption than it knows today. We believe that at little or no expense many of the recommendations of the report could be implemented. I trust that in answer to my Question the Minister will be able to assure the House that more vigorous action will be taken.
6.1 p.m.
Lord SANDYS: My Lords, your Lordships' House will be grateful to the right reverend Prelate for putting this Unstarred Question today at such a very timely and appropriate moment. The right reverend Prelate has referred to part of the background to the report, and I hope that it will be further appropriate if I go into a little greater detail, because, of course, your Lordships who are taking part in this debate today are those who took part in the debate on a very important Unstarred Question brought before your Lordships' House by the noble Lord, Lord Soper, on 25th June 1975. I may say that the noble Lord, Lord Soper, has constantly reminded us of this particular question, as indeed have the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London and many of his right reverend colleagues.
My Lords, at the heart of it is the basic paradox to which the right reverend Prelate referred, the paradox that housing authorities are encouraged to have a basic responsibility for the homeless but they have no duty. The duty lies, of course, with the social services department. Over the years this basic problem has

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been reviewed in surveys and studies and reports, and perhaps one of the more valuable reports produced over the last six or seven years was the Greve Report produced in 1971. That report underlined the fundamental value of the responsibility for housing the homeless resting with the housing department and not with the social services department.
My Lords, the right reverend Prelate has referred to the whole problem of housing young people. Of course, it is the case that rather more than 35 to 37 per cent. of the problem lies in London, and the right reverend Prelate so rightly referred to the situation in London. But it is not the whole position. The problem covers the country as a whole, the large centres of population. In previous debates we have looked at other cities. It is difficult to leave out of account the problem which was thrown up in the 1971 Census of 676,000 empty houses. It is also difficult to leave out of account the Government's Yellow Paper, The Review of the Rent Act, the Consultation Document produced recently. At the heart of it lies not only the basic paradox but also the particular problem of letting accommodation, in the private sector as well as the public sector.
The right reverend Prelate referred in detail to the recommendations, and I should like to refer to specific recommendations which he mentioned, although perhaps in a little greater detail than he did. If I may refer first of all to better use of accommodation, to which this report rightly gives special emphasis, I should like to refer to the paragraph which relates to the removal of unnecessary restrictions on lodgers in houses occupied by local authority tenants. In paragraph 2.13.5 the problem is written off in one sentence. It goes so much deeper than that. I do not think, with due respect to the body reporting on this subject, an accurate reflection was given in that one sentence of the very real complications involved.
Let us suppose that a house is let under a scheme which is becoming increasingly popular—that is the North Wiltshire District Scheme—a house which is owned by a private institution or person and is let through a local authority. The tenant for that property would be selected by the local authority, and in 90 per cent. of
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cases probably approved by the individual or institution owning it. If this recommendation is put into effect, the local authority is asked to relax the restrictions on lodgers. Let us suppose that in a particular case the tenant thinks it would be a good idea to encourage two lodgers to move in: two lodgers do move in, and shortly after that two more lodgers with their sleeping bags accompany them. This is a basic difficulty; it is one which the vast majority of potential private landlords, both in London, and, I may say, throughout the country, recognised the moment that the 1974 Rent Act reached the Statute Book. It is not a lack of willingness to let. It is lack of willingness to let in sensible circumstances. Itis the background which we must consider.
The next problem to which I must refer in regard to better use being made of existing housing is the recommendation in paragraph 2.13.8 that planning authorities should relax unnecessarily restrictive criteria for the conversion of large dwellings into smaller self-contained units. How often have we gone into this question? I suppose most recently in the Unstarred Question put down by my noble friend Lady Young on 24th February. It was also dealt with in some depth by another noble Lord. The problem is one of considerable difficulty. We are here dealing with the question of the 1965 building regulations and their application in conditions which were not even dreamt of 11 years ago.
My Lords, I believe, we on this side of the House believe, and I expect many of your Lordships would agree, that circumstances today would not permit of the suitable implementation of those building regulations. Why is this so? Very largely on grounds of cost, but also on grounds of experience. Since 1971 building costs in this particular field—that is, the conversion and repair field—have risen by no less than 140 per cent., and this is so large a factor that it must be taken into account.
I in no way suggest that the fire hazard has become less, and indeed in approaching the problem of converting dwellings, either into self-contained accommodation or into some other form of use, this must surely be one of the first considerations. One must also consider previous reports in this

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field. Surely, in this context the Culling-worth Report, dealing with Scotland's older houses and the fire hazard in that particular sphere, should be recognised. Nevertheless, I think there is a case for the Department of the Environment considering a review of the regulations and their relaxation in an amended form.
My Lords, one must return to the question, so aptly underlined by the right reverend Prelate in bringing forward this Unstarred Question, of the reduction of the number of housing units available in London. I am informed—and I think this is a reliable figure—that it has been reduced from a factor of 750,000 units before the 1974 Rent Act reached the Statute Book to less than 150,000 today. What has happened? One most significant factor has been the disappearance all over London and our major cities of those small postcards stuck in windows of houses or corner newsagents saying, "Room to let". There is a very real lack in the availability of housing and it is surely the fact that this lack led to the report which, of course, gave rise to our debate today.
Even if one went to these potential landladies and offered them copies of the many speeches of the noble Lord, Lord Janner, they would be totally adamant, saying that they were not willing to let their houses for two excellent reasons: first, the great difficulty of getting rid of an unsocial tenant and, secondly, the potential risk of violence. I am entirely convinced that their grounds are very strong and nothing has led me to believe that the situation has changed one whit since the report was published last year.
We have looked at the review of the Rent Acts and I should like to revert to the previous Green Paper on homelessness which was published by the Department of the Environment in 1975. I refer to paragraph 19 on page 4 where the Government say:
"The Government are anxious to avoid a legalistic approach to homelessness."
One may agree entirely with that point of view, but when one recognises—and this has been recognised in every debate—that the first need is a simplification of the Rent Acts, one surely cannot today cast aside the absolute necessity for a consolidation Act. I know that the report,
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which is the substance of this Unstarred Question, does not mention a consolidation Act; nevertheless, this is one of the fundamental needs in bringing about a satisfactory change. Perhaps I might end by quoting the Chinese proverb, that the way to calamity is paved with good intentions.
6.13 p.m.
Lord AMULREE: My Lords, I should like to support the right reverend Prelate who has tabled this Unstarred Question and also the report on which it is based. The lack of accommodation for single people has increased since the end of the war. After the war there were quite a number of Rowton Houses around. Two have certainly gone—the one at Mount Pleasant and the one at Hammersmith. I believe that three are now surviving. I do not know what number have been destroyed. It is extremely difficult to discover the total number of the young homeless. All sorts of people have made various attempts to reach a figure but it is very difficult. I have been in touch with a place in Soho called Centre Point which dealt with about 2,000 teenagers last year. That gives noble Lords some idea of the substantial number involved.
We have been told that the suggestion was for services to be centred on Euston because that is near St. Pancras and King's Cross stations. The reason is similar to the reason for building the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital in its present location—so many women come to London via these large termini and therefore could reach the hospital fairly easily. The hostels in that part of the world, which have been mentioned, are very unsatisfactory. St. Philomena's, which is in Eversholt Street and next door to the power station, is run by the Trish community for Irish girls. It has 20 beds but at present is shut due to reconstruction. The Royal Scottish Corporation told me that they had opened a similar hostel in Bina Gardens which, as your Lordships may know, is in Kensington, quite a long way from Euston. The Citizen's Advice Bureau, at the corner of Marchmont Street and Tavistock Place, again is quite a long way from the station. It is not at all easy to find because Marchmont Street changes its name twice before it gets to Euston Road, so if one is told to go to Marchmont Street one cannot find it.

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Friends House can be most kind and helpful but it is not their job to advise on accommodation and matters of that sort.
I agree with what has been said about the extraordinary attitude of British Rail. It was suggested that a kiosk might be set up on the station, which could be staffed by six trained personnel at an annual cost of between £23,000 and £31,000 a year. One appreciates that British Rail is in considerable financial trouble, but even so the sum of £31,000 a year in order to carry out an extremely valuable and precious service does not seem to be all that high. The situation at the Victoria Coach Station is far more hopeful. It has two full-time staff who deal largely with people coming from Scotland.
There is something to be said for the suggestion that houses which it is proposed to demolish but which are not in too sub-standard a state should be used as temporary residences for the homeless. It is always dangerous to put people into unsuitable premises, but there are certain degrees of unsuitability with which we might cope. I agree with both the right reverend Prelate and the noble Lord, Lord Sandys, that advantage should be taken of changing the regulations so that those in council houses may, if they wish, let rooms. The most vulnerable time when the young come to London is probably in the first four weeks during which what money they have will be spent, when they will not have work, and may not have accommodation. One must realise that they are not an homogenous group; they may be totally different people. Therefore the accommodation available for them must, up to a point, be varied.
I turn to the country at large. It would be agreeable and proper if our large towns had accommodation for single people because for the young to leave the family is quite different from leaving the family town. If they wish to leave the family and be independent, they should not be forced to leave the town where they have been brought up. When we debated the National Assistance Bill in 1946 or 1947 I raised the point about what would occur when the umbrella of the Poor Law was finally taken away. I do not hold any brief for the Poor Law. Its administration could be harsh and
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unpleasant. But some of the people who administered it were extremely good and it provided a universal umbrella of some sort. I was assured by the Minister who replied to my Question that there was no need to worry about this because the situation would always be taken care of by the National Assistance Bill when it became an Act. One final point, my Lords. If you are going to have hostels the warden has to be carefully and well chosen because it is probably upon his advice that the future of the young persons coming to London and to his hostel will depend.
6.21 p.m.
Lord SOPER: My Lords. I thank my noble friend for raising again this imperative question. I agree with him that much more should have been done, and it is a melancholy reflection that sine my noble friend Lord Janner raised the question last autumn there has been no consultation with the local authorities. But two things have happened which can form a not unsuitable text. One is that Mr. Reg Freeson in another place on 26th November indicated that it was the purpose of the Government—and this will particularly interest the noble Lord, Lord Sandys—to bring the responsibility for homelessness firmly and squarely upon the shoulders of the housing authorities in local government rather than the social services. I believe that very soon a Bill will be introduced by Mr. Rossi in another place which confirms what Reg Freeson had to say and indicates that the purpose of the Government is to put the responsibility on the shoulders of the housing departments.
That is a text not unsuitable for this reason: that in that Bill it will still not be regarded as of priority that the responsibility for housing single homeless people will take its place alongside the responsibilities for housing families and old people. It is my suggestion to your Lordships that until and unless the young homeless are regarded as a priority class, they will not sufficiently receive the kind of help to which they are entitled. That brings me immediately to my great disappointment with the Consultative Document, the Working Group's pronouncement. I found they were very quick to pass over any attempt to define, or at least to describe, the particular

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group, the young homeless. May I add a number of reasons for which it seems to me they are in a peculiar and particularly vulnerable category and in fact demand this priority. I hope the Government will recognise that they have as much and in some respects more entitlement to be regarded as of a first charge than even those who are elderly—and their need is obvious—and families whose need is equally obvious.
As the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, has just said, the group about which we are being invited to think this afternoon is not a homogeneous one, but there are certain characteristics which belong to it today which are distinguishable and ominous. It is a group within which there is a much higher rate of delinquency than any other homeless group. I cannot give particulars and data but after long experience in this field I am convinced that this is so. They are obviously a group which come under the general designation, so often used as an "in" word, of alienation. They are a group in which there is a higher percentage of racial tension, and for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that there is nothing more disturbing to a young Pakistani youth or a young Indian—rather more perhaps than the more tribalised youths which come to us from Africa—than that they will find within their own family a tension and a division as between the habits and the ethos of that family and the conditions which they find in a city like London. I have knowledge of many of these youngsters with darker skins than mine whose problem is accentuated by the fact that they are regarded in the first instance as dangerous; that they fall into the alienation category more easily and are much more difficult to reclaim into any sort of society. I believe that this racial tension is very considerable, is growing, and in places like Brixton as elsewhere is of very great importance to those who would look upon youthful homeless people as having a particularly dangerous condition at least for the community as a whole.
Furthermore, this is a group of people of whom I might make the strange comment that the drought last summer had something to do with it. Let me explicate that extraordinary statement, but I am sure it is true. A great many young people
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of both sexes became habituated and conditioned to living what they regarded as "rough", because "rough" was fairly smooth during that time and they became accustomed to a way of life which has now become much more difficult and very much more unpleasant in an unusually wet winter. They have become detribalised in the sense that they are accustomed to a way of life now which is very difficult to reclaim to the kind of society to which we would think they would more fully express themselves. For those and other reasons, I am convinced that unless we regard this group as of priority status we shall not be in any position adequately to deal with the problems that they raise and indeed to assuage the troubles in which they find themselves.
Already there has been evidence, very properly given, of the resentment that many of these homeless young people feel, because as they travel abroad in the great cities they find themselves confronted with innumerable notices of houses to let and to be sold and they do not need to be convinced, as I am afraid some other people need to be convinced, that quite apart from the building of new accommodation there is a tremendous amount of accommodation in London which with fairly small expenditure could, at least for short-term occupation, be recovered, particularly when the short-term attempt to provide some new kind of accommodation in rebuilding is much more unlikely in the present economic stress than it was say two or three years ago. The short-life accommodation is abundant and would be much more quickly available if only the Government would take the proper steps, in some cases by self-help, to see that this accommodation is made available to those who need it.
May I commend to the Government the evidence that comes from London and Quadrant Housing association of the way in which this particular effort can be advantageously and successfully undertaken. Reference has already been made to the walk up accommodation, the hard to let accommodation. Many of these youngsters are not dispossessed of a great deal of happiness if they have not got a garden or if they do not live in the kind of situation of which proper requirements are set for those who would let

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them to, shall we say, families or young people in other kinds of community life. There is a great opportunity for the use of this hard to let accommodation and it would not be disadvantageous, as in the Camden experiment, to think that many of those youngsters would respond to the opportunity of a bit of "do-it-yourself" if they had at least the carrot, if you like, of some kind of regular occupation—because many of them are unemployed—and still better accommodation which at least would give them a place to lay their heads at night.
There is yet another aspect of this problem; that is, the provision of some kind of regular hostelry on the part of voluntary associations. I know a bit about this and it is only fair to put into such conversation as we are undertaking today certain comments. There can be no doubt at all that the provision of hostels for homeless youngsters is a precarious and costly exercise. In the hostels for which I am responsible the life expectancy of a colour television set is about six weeks; after that it is "whipped", and with all the precautions that can be taken it is impossible to prevent wholesale thieving.
I do not make that statement with any stomach; I record it as a lamentable fact, a fact that underlines two things. The first is the way in which many of these youngsters can and do exploit the voluntary services that are offered to them. The second—the Working Party was well aware of this—is the way in which they can be exploited. I therefore make some suggestions with regard to hostels. I am satisfied that the Working Party is right in refusing registration as if it is peremptory; I do not think it would work. However, I believe it is necessary for there to be a much closer relationship between the setting up of such hostels and responsible public bodies which can advise and in some cases superintend, if for no other reason than to adopt the old principle "no subvention without representation". It is clear that very few hostels could prevail for any length of time without public money of some kind to help them. If that money is forthcoming, then I believe that those who provide the money should find access to the workings of those hostels, and in the cases of which I have personal knowledge we have representatives from public bodies on
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our committees and we would welcome others.
What we are confronted with in the world at the moment is a lack of the society about which I will not dilate at this point in the debate, except to say that if the argument is that we cannot afford the kind of public money which will provide housing for those people who are homeless and particularly youngsters, then in my view that kind of economic argument is bad. I was delighted when I first heard Bach's music described as celestial arithmatic or mathematics—I cannot remember the exact phrase—and I believe there is a celestial kind of economics. I am satisfied that it is not a question of whether we can afford the necessary resources to provide homes or at least lodgings for those youngsters who are homeless. We cannot afford not so to do, for the total result will be an impoverishment of the whole society in which we live. What scares me almost as much—I say this with considerable hesitation and after long thought—is that I believe there is a moral deteriortion in a great many young people today. One of the causes producing that situation, lamentable as it is, is their lack of any sense of belonging, and one cannot belong unless one has somewhere to live.
Lord PLATT: Before the noble Lord sits down, my Lords, may I ask him whether the phrase for which he was looking was "the celestial logic of Bach", and was that not written by the late Lord Brain?
Lord SOPER: I accept that, ray Lords, so long as the noble Lord is in favour of Bach.
6.35 p.m.
Baroness VICKERS: My Lords, I am glad of this opportunity to take part in the debate and I congratulate the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London on his choice of subject. I wish also to join with him on the question of the building in Endell Street. I believe that it could be bought for about £100,000. It is an admirable building which I understand would accommodate about 40 people. I have been to see it and I hope that we may get some help today—if the Government cannot help, then perhaps the

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voluntary organisations could get together in this matter—in order to make some use of this building.
I was interested in what the right reverend Prelate said about booths in stations. For many years, when I was chairman of the British Vigilance Association we ran, in conjunction with International Travellers' Aid, booths at both Victoria and Liverpool Street stations; in those days they were designed particularly of course for au pair girls and others coming from overseas. Once we had joined the EEC that activity was not really necessary. I cannot understand why there is now any objection to having such booths. The only thing that worries me is what the report says about the cost because when we ran them the cost was not anything like that suggested.
I may be rather critical, but I assure the Minister that I am not being critical of him. He is in a very difficult situation and I know from experience that he has this problem very much at heart. I know he would do everything he could if it were in his hands alone. In a Parliamentary reply to a similar Question mentioned by the right reverend Prelate, he referred to the Answer he had received; the one I have in mind, which was given to the other place, was much longer and much more definite. Part of it read:
"The Government are not committed to the acceptance of these recommendations but consider it desirable that they should be fully discussed".
We seem to have discussed this on more than one occasion. It went on:
"They will have to be considered carefully by the Government in consultation with the local authority associations and other interested bodies. In view of current economic circumstances, and the Government's call for restraint in local authority spending, there is little prospect of early implementation of those proposals which would require additional expenditure, but in the consultations particular attention will be paid to what can otherwise be done to help homeless young people."
That was a most depressing view from the Government. However, there is in the report one hopeful suggestion at page 56, item 6, to the effect that the Housing Corporation should consider increasing the allocation of finance to hostel and other accommodation for single young people.
I have the report with me and I am rather depressed because on page 14 it says:
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"This has been a year of change for staff, and one of debate on how best to improve and develop arrangements for negotiations and consultation. A Joint Consultative and Negotiating Committee was established during the year to provide a forum for discussion as a possible step towards more formal arrangements and negotiations."
It seems to me that we are to do nothing but discuss and that no action is to be taken. Something I should like to see and something that is in the report's recommendations—I believe this could be implemented without extra expenditure—is Recommendation 2(e):
"Planning authorities should relax unnecessarily restrictive criteria for the conversion of large dwellings into smaller self-contained units."
That could be carried out quite easily.
Returning to the report of the Housing Corporation, what worries me is the money they are spending. I have mentioned that they have had a change of staff and it seems that 363 of the staff are paid on average £4,000 a year. I understand that not one house has been built and in my view if the Corporation were to disappear tomorrow that would hardly affect those doing that work, except that it would relieve other workers in the housing sphere from the pressure of bureaucracy. Unfortunately the figures for 1976–77 are not known. Perhaps the Minister can say what is the cost of the Corporation's move to its very palatial offices in Maple House. That question should be answered because it is worrying a great many people.
I suggest that more use is made of the National Association of Voluntary Hostels. I say that because since 1962 that body has placed 67,000 persons in 11,000 hostels, an extremely good job of work. I should like to see it operating as a policy and policing body and also as a coordinating body with other hostels. When I suggest the Association is, so far as I understand it, the one organisation that really goes round seeing whether the hostels are the right type for the young people. After one visit to Gleave's hostel, no more placings were made and I understand—and the right reverend Prelate has already referred to this—that there is to be a programme concerning NOVO on television tonight. Since August 1975, the National Association of Voluntary Hostels has not had them on its list. I should like the Minister to state whether

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he can give the organisation official powers to visit and make reports to him. I believe that this would be very helpful.
I was rather disturbed by the point of view put forward on a Question yesterday by the noble Lord, Lord Boothby, who suggested that some of the stations might be patrolled by people wanting to get young persons of either sex for undesirable purposes. I should like to say that, though this may be true, it is not the reason why young people come to London, and I should like to point out one or two things in their favour. As may be known to the Minister, I am a trustee and also help to run what is known as the London Centre. To take one part of the work, because I have not had the opportunity of getting hold of all the figures, out of 14 people at the Centre, 12 are working.
I should like to know what is the policy of the Government for the future because centres like mine want to prepare their policy. We hope to produce 11 more hostels by 1980, and we should like to have some indication whether it is worth our while to go on working on these lines and whether we should get in touch with other centres to find out where the new hostels should be placed and what ratio needs to be provided for the different sexes. As I understand it, a short while ago there were five boys needing accommodation to every one girl but the ratio has now changed to three to one. Perhaps the Minister may have some further details.
I should like also to join in the congratulations to Sarah Waugh on the publication of her excellent document Needs and Provisions for Young Single Homeless People up to the Age of 25 Years and the Needs of Mobility of Young People for Jobs. The Department of the Environment has said in Circular 18/74 that homelessness is concerned with the needs of those who are literally without shelter or likely to lose in the immediate future what shelter they have. The noble Lord, Lord Soper, has mentioned the Private Bill dealing with the housing of homeless persons and I absolutely agree with him that this will not be any use for the type of person we are talking about today because I gather that it is primarily for the elderly, the disabled and pregnant women. There is another Bill which
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rather worries me as far as the creation of homelessness is concerned. This is Part II of the Criminal Law Bill. The law of trespass, with the fine of £1,000 or six months' imprisonment for those guilty of adverse occupation of residential property and those who perhaps squat illegally, will increase the number requiring hostel accommodation.
I should like to consider for a moment those who are in need. First, we have the unskilled. It is the unskilled who cannot get employment at the present time. Then there are the emotionally unstable. Then, as mentioned by the noble Lard, Lord Soper, there are those overseas persons who are permanently settled here. I should like to see—and I believe that this has been mentioned by the Secretary of State for Education—far better career prospects put forward by careers officers in schools. I believe that they need a much better and more thorough training. The unskilled need really good counselling because not enough preparation is made for the very dramatic moment when they leave school and leave their families and go out to work. We are living in an age of competitive industry and I believe that too many young people, expecially girls, are orientated by the schools towards professional jobs, instead of doing manual work or taking up apprenticeships in, say, engineering and hairdressing.
I believe that the emotionally unstable must be sorted out before they leave school because we find that these are a large number of our clients when they come to the big cities. With regard to the overseas young people, they have a particularly difficult time because their parents were mostly brought up in their countries of origin with a very different outlook in regard to family life. They have lost what is known as the "extended family" system, which is very unfortunate. Naturally, if they live in this country, it is difficult to keep that which they had in their own country. Also, when one gets girls who have been brought up in the Moslem religion, they now want to be far more independent and I regret to say that in a great many cases—or perhaps that is exaggerating and I should say, in a large number of cases—young girls leave home because they cannot accept the strict authority of the parents which they would have had in their own country. There we have what is known as a "split

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family". I gather that 53 percent, of those using night shelter between April and November 1970 came from split families. One thousand nine hundred and fifty one (9 per cent.) had criminal records. Three percent, were mentally or physically in danger because they had health problems and 2 percent only were there because they were taking drugs or alcohol. Those are the real reasons for homelessness.
I want to finish by making one other point: what happens when these people leave the hostels? I try very hard to see that, when they have a job, they make some savings in order that they can eventually go to live on their own. But what is needed are bedsitting rooms for the single person. There is an organisation called Abbeyneld which does this for the elderly. They have a room with their own furniture and a place to cook. We also have one hostel which will do this for the disabled and we have a lounge where they can all meet and, in the case of the disabled, if they cannot cook any more, their cooking is done for them. I want to encourage the young people to save their money to buy some furniture, but they must have somewhere where they can go. Coming back to Endell Street, I think that this would be a very good place for them to go and pay some rent. I am sure that there are similar problems in Liverpool, Birmingham and Manchester which I shall not go into today.
I was glad that somebody mentioned the idea that council tenants could take in some young people, particularly elderly council tenants who do not want to leave their homes or the district where they have many friends but who have too much accommodation and are very lonely. I should like to have a register of landladies and landlords who might take in young people. In Plymouth, we did this for the elderly and it worked extremely well, with many people taking the elderly into their homes. If there is a register, if they have difficulties somebody can go and help to sort them out. May I end by thanking the young people who, I feel, have done more than anybody else to bring this matter to our attention; that is, CHAR. I have attended their meetings and I should like to congratulate them on their persistence in trying to find some way of
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improving the life of those who are probably the same age as those who are doing this excellent job.
6.49 p.m.
Lord JANNER: My Lords, I approach this subject from an angle which I hope other Members of the House will appreciate; namely, the extreme importance of this problem. I hope that I shall not upset my noble friend Lord Wells-Pestell too much if I say that I believe that, if he were not placed under certain restrictions from other directions, he would feel precisely the same as other noble Lords who are speaking on this subject. I say this in consequence of my knowledge of his deep interest in the problem itself and in social problems generally. I should like to thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London for having taken the opportunity of bringing this subject forward this evening and for the admirable way in which he presented the case and dealt with the problem itself, although this deprived some of us of an opportunity of saying much that he himself said. But that is not unusual with the right reverend Prelate. He covered the ground extremely well and put the problems as most of us would have desired to do.
When I was at the memorial service to Anthony Crosland yesterday I heard something which, in view of the effect it had upon me, I thought it might be useful to repeat in this debate. When the Dean of Westminster was referring to our late lamented friend and colleague he said this:
"We recall his passion to advance a more just and equal society, his unfaltering desire to raise up the under-privileged, to care for the less fortunate"—
I want to underline the next phrase:
"and to harness the resources of the State to this end."
We are living at a time when we are dealing with priorities, with the use of such funds as are available, and we are giving priority to such problems as we think are of the highest importance. I think that the subject with which we are dealing this evening stands high in the list—very high indeed—because it affects to an enormous extent the future of young people. We have already heard how young people can become criminally inclined, how they can

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lose their sense of being part of the whole of our people.
I believe that the question of the cost cannot be considered in a cold and impassive manner, as a piece of arithmetic, in disposing of the funds available in the Treasury. It is too deep a matter of concern for cold, hard calculation in terms of monetary consideration. Of course, we all know that funds are not available to the extent that we should like for all the causes in which we are interested, but I would repeat that this is an important cause when it comes to the consideration of funds. In the past we have heard answers to the effect that something costs so much, or that it costs too much. The question is asked what can be done without spending money, but quite rightly consideration is given to steps that can be taken without incurring undue cost. I want to emphasise, however, that that is not the main consideration in a case of this description. Whatever other problem arises for which funds have to be made available, I believe that this particular problem should take a very high priority.
I want to mention one other point here. I was a little sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Sandys, thought it necessary to introduce the question of the Rent Acts in this matter. This is not the time that I should like to enter into a disputation on whether or not the situation which we are discussing is the fault of the Rent Acts. I have my own views about that, and in passing I can say only what I have said before. I think that the reason why people do not allow their places to be rented is that they have been frightened by the kind of propaganda that has gone forward. Many people have been frightened by the manner in which the Rent Acts have been presented to them, so causing a deterrent which arises from the unfortunate way in which a case has been presented—
Lord SANDYS: My Lords, I think that I must remind the noble Lord, Lord Janner, of what he said on 24th February, as reported at column 463 of the Official Report. He said:
"Blame the person who fixes the rent, blame the tribunal, but do not blame the law."
This is a dispute between us, and it would be unprofitable to continue it.
Lord JANNER: That, my Lords, is why I am spending only a few moments discussing it. Perhaps one day the noble Lord and I will be able to get together and I will try to explain my view regarding this question.
I think I can agree that young people are almost totally dependent on the private rented sector at present, and those who become homeless are those least desirable to landlords and landladies. The private sector is shrinking, and the supply of good landladies is diminishing. Therefore the number of young homeless is increasing. There is a disproportionate number of the unacceptable who have already been referred to—the unskilled, the unemployed, the emotionally unstable and, unhappily, some of the coloured people. Those most at risk, in my view, and I think in the view of the Committee which investigated the matter, are those young people who wish to live independently and to make their own way, but who cannot afford to do so with the present scarcity of single accommodation. They move from place to place, become disillusioned and restless, and tend to form a hard core of drifters who are vulnerable to evil elements in society. They require special social support—and I want to emphasise this—for their resettlement in the community.
Council houses are largely offered to families and the elderly, and owner-occupation is largely out of the reach of young people, so provision for hem falls largely on the voluntary sector. There is a special need for night shelters such as Centrepoint and St. Anne's, Soho, but these cannot function adequately without follow-up accommodation. Many voluntary organisations provide hostel accommodation, but hostels, too, need the backup of more permanent on-going bedsitters or shared flats. The Stonham Association, for example, named after a former and revered Member of this House, runs widespread hostels for the single homeless with special needs, who require a stable period of social support as a basis for resettlement in society. All too often, when they are ready to leave the hostel there is literally no place for them to go to. They have to stay in hostels longer than they need to do, while those who are in urgent need of hostel support have to go without. When we are considering the question of the cost, I would respectfully

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suggest to my noble friend that considerations of this sort have to be taken into account.
The most urgent need of the single homeless today is for bed-sitters—and I agree with the points which have been made—or single units, and the voluntary sector is concerned to provide them. Housing associations are being widely frustrated in this aim, I would point out to my noble friend, by the present policy of the Housing Corporation of limiting housing grants to stress areas. There are local voluntary groups all over the country concerned about single homeless persons, particularly the young, which would embark on such projects in co-operation with housing associations, like Stonham, if only the funds were available in their area. It is very sad that the largest cuts in the housing programme for 1977–78 have fallen upon housing associations. One-third of all the cuts of £180 million has been obtained by a major reduction in housing association programmes, yet they are responsible for little over 10 per cent. of total housing expenditure. This 10 per cent., however, is significantly related to the needs of the poorest and most vulnerable, and it is they who will be directly hit by the damage to the housing association movement.
It is indicated that, as unemployment has increased, so has homelessness also increased, particularly among young people who leave home in search of employment. It has been observed that at Centrepoint (to which the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, and I think one other speaker have already referred) young people from provincial areas of unemployment have been able to find work in London but no place in which to live. There are numerous voluntary agencies which are seeking to provide social support for people with special problems and are co-operating with the statutory agencies involved, but it is painfully clear that, however dedicated their endeavours may be, their efforts at promoting social resettlement are largely dissipated without the provision of a residential back-up.
While the provision of emergency accommodation such as night shelters, day centres and crisis centres is such a valuable contribution to the voluntary sector, the
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authorities should never allow this provision to be a substitute for the real need, which is for long-term accommodation. For example, the Centrepoint night shelter in Soho renovated a large and dilapidated house which was one of several standing empty in a row owned by the GLC, and converted it into shared flats for young men who had slept at the shelter but had nowhere to go. It is a scandal that so much of this local authority property is standing empty and derelict while there are so many voluntary associations which are only too anxious to put them to good use in this way. An example of what can be done by a flexible and co-operative local authority is that in 1975 a voluntary group providing short-life community housing was housing 72 families, 50 couples and 132 single people in property it had renovated in the Borough of Camden.
My Lords, there are other aspects of this subject. I do not want to detain the House much longer, but there is the question of ex-offenders who at the present time are being housed in order to allow them to have some kind of opportunity to get back into normal life. Many of them could leave the organisations providing that kind of housing if there were opportunities to take up housing accommodation elsewhere; and, in turn, that would provide an opportunity for young people who have offended and who need the kind of protection that these organisations give in order to enable them to come back into ordinary life.
The problem is a very serious one, and I have asked Questions about it. I have had replies which, I am sorry to say, are not satisfactory. In particular, in the case of the one that I asked only yesterday, the idea of not making provision for people at railway stations is, in my opinion, a disgrace. That is an opportunity which should not be missed, and what we have heard as resulting from that opportunity not being taken should really have stirred all of us, on whatever side of the House we may sit, into ensuring that action is taken. I hope that my noble friend will see to it that, instead of the matter being delayed again, as it has been since October, we have proper consideration given to the position, and that adequate protection will be given to these young people who will eventually become the men and women of our nation.
7.8 p.m.
Baroness MACLEOD of BORVE: My Lords, there is a great deal of homeless-ness in this country today, but due to the initiative of the right reverend Prelate we are fortunate in being able to discuss the young homeless tonight. This is a late hour, and I shall not keep the House long. It seems to me that the young homeless fall into four or five categories. There are the unemployed; the single who have left home; the one-parent families, of both sexes; and the alcoholics or drug addicts. Last Wednesday I had in front of me in a juvenile court a woman of 23 who had three children. She could not find anywhere to live, and she had no money with which to provide any accommodation for her three children. She was being thrown from my borough back to where she came from, a big city in the Midlands; backwards and forwards, from the housing authority to the social services. Nobody wanted her, and nobody wanted her children. The only way, it seemed, that she could get accommodation for her children was to put them into the care of the local authority, and that we had to do.
Most of the agencies working with young people which are worried about the number of homeless in our areas today are very worried about the girls from the immigrant families, as has been mentioned. It is estimated that there may be 1,000 second generation immigrant youngsters drifting in London; and a great proportion of them are girls. My noble friend Lord Sandys mentioned the Rent Act. I must mention it, too, despite what the noble Lord, Lord Janner, has said. From what I have been able to discover, not all homelessness, but some of it, is the direct result of the Rent Act; for there is so much less accommodation available in London because people will not let their bedsitting rooms and will not let their flats because they are terrified of not being able to get the youngsters out.
Lord JANNER: My Lords, I agree that people are terrified. The point is why they are terrified. Is it not because this kind of thing has been greatly stirred up and people themselves do not understand the possibilities open to them to get their tenants out if they want to?
Baroness MACLEOD of BORVE: My Lords, I agree; but surely we are all hoping that there will be an alteration of the Rent Act. I think that that will be helpful, because it seems from all the inquiries one makes that the fewer and fewer bedsitting rooms and fiats being available is the direct result of this Rent Act.
Before 1939, a long time ago, there were over 300 statutory reception centres up and down the country. In 1961 there were 33 and in 1963 there were 25. Now there are 21 centres with beds for 2,500 men and 90 women; but nobody may stay in these centres for more than three nights. One noble Lord referred to the Rowntree houses which had 2,000 cheap rooms. Those, as we all know, no longer exist. The problem today is difficult to quantify, as noble Lords have said, but I have a survey brought out by Crisis at Christmas this year which took the year 973 when there were 8,000 young people sleeping rough, of which 20 per cent, were female. Twenty-five per cent, came from Scotland, 18 per cent, from the North of England, 13 per cent, from the Midlands, 13 per cent, from the South and the remainder from the London boroughs. I, in company with other noble Lords, have asked Questions about the problems of homelessness and about what is being done as a result of the Working Party report.
It seems to me that too many people are not doing enough. We have been told that five different Departments are contributing to committees which are sitting on this problem. I suggest that it is about time that those Departments got together and stopped passing the buck from one to another. If you are young and far from home and have very few friends except those with whom you are squatting or sheltering underneath a bridge, it is cold comfort to know that despite what the noble Lord in person does and tries to do—and I pay tribute to all that he does—nothing, apparently, is being done.
It is very easy if one sees the young people around to become emotional on what is a very difficult subject. I should like to suggest to the Minister that there should be appointed an overlord who would weld together the work of all the agencies and their representatives; who would weld together the work of the Ministries, of the voluntary societies and

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of the local authorities until we have some body which can find out what the policy should be and then implement it forthwith. Despite the fact that it might cost money, I do not see that we are otherwise going to get anything except buck passing.
It is high time—and I agree with the other noble Lords who have mentioned this—that the Government got their priorities right and looked after the young people of this country. I also think there should be more hostel accommodation in the big cities, because so many young people have run away from home. If they have somewhere to run to, without catching a train to London from Birmingham or Liverpool or Manchester, then perhaps they would not run as far as London and perhaps then we should not have the juvenile delinquency that relates to homelessness and the juvenile delinquency that relates definitely to their having no roof.
This is a difficult subject. It is an emotional subject, or can be so. I beg the Government to treat it with the utmost urgency because our generation needs to see that young people are looked after. As I believe the noble Lord, Lord Soper, said, they are the future, and they are blaming us and blaming the Government—all Governments—for not taking this situation seriously enough. I beg the noble Lord to do all that he can to implement parts of this report.
7.17 p.m.
The Earl of LONGFORD: My Lords, I certainly echo the last words of the noble Baroness and beg the Government—and I know the noble Lord himself personally needs no begging—to treat this matter with even more earnestness than hitherto. A famous man whose name escapes me—somebody may supply the omission—asked to speak after Edmund Burke, contented himself with observing, "I say 'Ditto' to Mr. Burke". Someone may be able to tell me who it was; it might have been Goldsmith. But I resist the temptation, the House will be sorry to hear, to say, "Likewise" and sit down. I must just say a few other things; but I want to endorse strongly the lead given so effectively by the right reverend Prelate and to back up many of the other speakers. In particular, I should like to support
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with a great deal of feeling the insistence by the noble Lord, Lord Soper, that the Government should give strong encouragement to the inclusion of young homeless people in Mr. Ross's new Bill.
The Government are said to be supporting this Bill. For our purposes, for the purpose of this debate, they are not supporting it—up to now, at least. Perhaps we may get more encouragement tonight. They have not given any evidence of supporting the inclusion in the Bill of the young homeless, as pressed for by the noble Lord, Lord Soper, and others. In criticising the Government, I do not want to seem to be paying an indirect compliment to the Opposition which might be beyond their desserts. There is no reason to suppose that they would include this in their proposals. The noble Lord, Lord Sandys, was not heard to say anything on this matter, unless one missed the point. It is not a question of one Party or another; but of all Governments and of those in authority whatever Front Bench they happen to be sitting on, here or elsewhere. That is the first point: that we must ask and press the noble Lord who is speaking on behalf of the Government to say whether the Government favour the inclusion in Mr. Ross's Bill of the young homeless people who are our particular topic this afternoon.
My Lords, other noble Lords have spoken from their own long and direct experience and I will say a few words from mine. I am one of those who helped found the New Horizon Youth Centre in Soho, now in Macklin Street, Drury Lane. I have spoken to the young people who do the work there and who run it—for I am just the chairman, which is, as we all know, the least important thing you can be except being the president, as I have heard the noble Viscount, Lord Amory remark before now. I am in close touch with our centre and I asked the young people who run it to give me a brief example of the life story of someone who is homeless. As has been remarked by more than one speaker, there was an infinite variety of young people.
One cannot say that one person exemplifies the lot; but, my Lords, let me give you one short story on which to focus our thoughts. One young boy of 19 years of age came to London from

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Liverpool a year ago. On the face of it, he was neither better nor worse than lots of other people. He soon spent the money that he brought with him on bed and breakfast accommodation. After a few days of sleeping rough he came to our New Horizon Youth Centre. The staff tried to help him find accommodation but the resources available to them were either full or had waiting lists. The young man spent weeks moving from night shelter to lodging house, sometimes sleeping rough and sometimes spending the night in cafes. He soon lost sight of any plans to get a job. Because of his lack of accommodation, he was unable to obtain any work that lasted, and the few casual jobs he had did not enable him to pay for any accommodation that was at all secure. A year after his arrival in London he no longer has any personal possessions. His health has deteriorated and repeated failure to get out of the West End has destroyed his confidence and he feels that he has no future. We in the New Horizon Centre are sure that this particular young man's present circumstances would be totally different and infinitely better if accommodation had been available to him on his arrival in London. He is one case among many; that is the kind of person that we are talking about this evening.
I do not want to deal with the main points which others have treated so effectively, but I should like to touch on one topic that the noble Lord, Lord Soper, and others referred to; that is, whether we can afford these facilities. I was glad to hear him quote my old friend Lord Beveridge. When Beveridge was asked whether we could afford the so-called Beveridge Plan, he said, "We cannot not afford it". In a deep sense that is true. If we look into this matter in terms of a balance sheet, we can give a further answer. We were told by the noble Lord, Lord Soper, and other speakers that in many cases it is a very uninviting prospect for landladies to take in homeless young people. It may be an uninviting prospect now, but it would be a much less inviting prospect when they are asked to take in the same people a year later. Those people will be permanently damaged unless accommodation is found for them. If the colour television vanishes after six weeks now, then if those same people are housed in that accommodation in a
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year from now the colour television will vanish in a week.
We must realise that we are laying up a terrible legacy for ourselves or for the community. I do not know whether it is right here to distinguish between our own community self-interest and the interest, the life story, the fate and human destiny of these young people. One cannot distinguish, because I believe in this world that if you do harm to individuals, you almost certainly damage the community. You may ruin the community. I am sure that in the end we will pay for this in every sense, moral and economic. It cannot be economy in any sense that has any meaning to try to skimp and save on these homeless young.
One final matter, my Lords. I should like to return to the matter of information booths which has been referred to by more than one speaker. I am sure that most noble Lords will agree with me—and I am sure that in his heart the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, will agree with me, because he is the most compassionate of men and is also very knowledgeable in this field—that it is a scandal that these information booths should not be set up at Euston station and Victoria coach station. Many of the young people that we have seen in recent months at the New Horizon Youth Centre have money when they arrive in London. If they receive advice and information immediately on arrival, the money can be spent on permanent accommodation rather than on beds in hotels, when the money vanishes very quickly.
My Lords, we have a Minister who would like to take the right action. I can only hope that this debate will help him to do so, and I hope that this combination of strong feeling and first-hand knowledge will enable him to say to his colleagues, "You cannot go on depriving these young people of their human rights".
7.26 p.m.
Baroness GAITSKELL: My Lords, I feel deeply grateful to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London for his Question to the Government, and for his moving, informative speech. I intervene humbly, not the least bit knowledgeable on this subject. I have learned more in

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this debate from the speeches tonight than from practically any other debate I have attended.
I must confess that those five little words, "What action has been taken?" make my heart sink, because I know that action costs money, and there is not much of that about these days. This report on the homeless young is a rather good one. Its recommendations are relevant and none the worse for being obvious. What is less obvious and even mystifying is the way that a convicted criminal, such as Mr. Gleaves, who inspired this report, was able to build up an edifice of such wickedness because of legal timidity—I can call it nothing less.
My Lords, I will be brief and touch mainly on the information services, which, after all, should not be too costly. The problems of the homeless young are not difficult to diagnose or analyse. The fact that we have no statistics of their numbers or their ages shows this. The Housing Act of 1974 for the first time said that hostels were entitled to a housing subsidy. This report stresses the overriding need for hostels for short-term accommodation for the young homeless, first, to prevent them from coming to London and then, when arriving in London—where large numbers of young people come with nowhere to go—for them to get help. Apart from the need for social worker support, the funding of short-stay hostels as housing projects is crucial. Here the management costs are inevitably high because they require good staffing, and the only way of getting funds for them is from the voluntary organisations.
I should like to concentrate on the need for giving young people information about existing hostels, and as much publicity as we can give them. Here one of the obvious and cheaper ways of giving in-formation is in the last two years of their school life. Though 70,000 copies of a very good information leaflet were distributed to voluntary youth organisations, it is known that many young people who move to London will be unprepared and in need of advice and guidance. Despite this, a Camden Council study suggests that at Euston, King's Cross and St. Pancras the need for information and advice was not met. Such information services could be conducted from any
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small mobile unit: I suggest a van, a kiosk, a booth, or, let us say, a bus at the Victoria bus terminal, where the office could be upstairs and the waiting room downstairs.
For the prevention of such atrocities as were committed by Mr. Gleaves, conventional wisdom should be by-passed. Rather, help and advice should be given by teachers during the last two years at school before children go to work. The career services, together with further education and training establishments, should be mobilised and given directives to help the homeless young. All that should really be part of teacher training and not involve immediate cost. Finally, life after school can be well described on television. When we consider that out of the 750,000 children who leave school every year, 300,000 receive no further education and training, it is little wonder, my Lords, that the young seek adventure, romance and the glittering lights of the big cities.
7.32 p.m.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I am going to resist the temptation extended to me by the noble Lord, Lord Sandys, and the noble Baroness, Lady Macleod, to deal with the Rent Act, I shall not do that because I want to keep this debate non-political so far as possible and I should not be able to do that if I dealt with that aspect. But I am stung into action by the noble Baroness, Lady Macleod, who said that in this particular field we are discussing tonight nothing is being done. I am now going to establish that a good deal is being done.
The right reverend Prelate did at least confine himself to the matter of the wording of the Unstarred Question and, quite rightly, drew attention to the fact that something like five or six months had elapsed. I do not say that the right reverend Prelate said that nothing had been done, but that we do not know the Government's intentions with regard to the Working Party's report. Your Lordships all know there are five Government Departments represented on the Working Party and the report represented a part of their deliberations, along with those of representatives of a large number of other organisations. We do live in a democracy—let us be profoundly thankful for that—and for five months five Departments involved, with a large number of

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people in each of them, have been discussing their individual responsibilities. People may laugh about this, but if one has been in Government, as a number of your Lordships have, one will know that it is not easy to come to some meaningful consensus in a period of five months.
However, having said that, may I say that the Government have studied very carefully the recommendations of the Working Party and, if it does not come as a shock to noble Lords, the several Ministers concerned are at the present moment considering a draft Consultation Paper. I hope it will be possible to start discussions on that with local authority associations in the very near future—and I mean the very near future. If somebody wants me to put days or weeks to that, I cannot; but there is now a Consultation Paper for the purpose of discussing with local authority associations not only the problem itself but how best to deal with it.
I want to say something about what is being done at the present moment in this particular field. When people talk about "small expenditure", there is a lot of small expenditure. Let me remind your Lord-ships that the latest White Paper on public expenditure provides for a continuing level of public expenditure on housing from all sources of £4,200 million—I repeat, £4,200 million. We are spending an enormous amount of money on housing. I am not suggesting for one moment that that is all to be used for the benefit of the homeless or homeless young people; but there are a large number of married couples—middle-aged and elderly couples—who are homeless and who have to be provided for by the State.
I recognise that a serious problem is involved, and it would be idle not to recognise that fact so far as the young homeless are concerned. I should like to take this opportunity of paying tribute for the tremendous amount of work which is being done by voluntary organisations, not only here in London, where they are doing a magnificent job in the West End, but all over the country. Indeed, the plight would be a jolly sight worse if we did not have the benefit of their expertise and guidance and the work they are doing.
The publication of the report has itself stimulated local interest, and has expressed
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a great deal of concern over the problems of the homeless young. We have sent copies of the report to all local authorities, and my Department, the Department of Health and Social Security, has received a large number of requests from individuals and organisations all over the country—and indeed, from as far a field as Australia. Even before publication, a conference was held in London, as the right reverend Prelate will know better than I, perhaps, by the British Council of Churches. That conference was attended by representatives of voluntary organisations, central and local Government, and by Members of both Houses. As a result of that, a very eye-catching report, if I may so describe it, was published and commended to the Churches for consideration.
In Liverpool, Newcastle, Manchester and Birmingham groups have been looking at the problems of homelessness in their cities. I am not suggesting that is being done for the very first time, but I think it now has added emphasis. These initiatives have been taken largely by voluntary organisations. In London, the final report of the joint London Boroughs' Association with the Greater London Working Party on Accommodation for the Single will be considered by the appropriate committee of the London Boroughs' Association and the Greater London Council w thin the next few days. It has also been considering the needs of homeless people in London.
I do not want there to be n is under-standing about what (albeit probably not enough) is being done. I have re: erred to the initiatives being taken by Voluntary bodies in setting up a group to consider the problems of homeless people, and some of your Lordships may have seen an article in The Times about a month ago which suggested that the Government were not able to offer any financial help to alleviate the serious difficulties faced by voluntary agencies. I welcome this opportunity of putting the record straight.
The Working Group's report drew attention to various Government sources of finance which are available, and which have been available to voluntary organisations for a very long time, and I hope it will be helpful if I mention some of these sources. The Working Group first referred to the role of the housing

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associations. I am advised by the Department of the Environment that housing associations have been able to undertake a wide variety of projects to meet the problems of single homeless young people. As well as ordinary small flats, there are projects such as that run by the Sandford Co-operative, where purpose-built cluster flats are managed on co-operative principles. I am trusting to memory now, but I believe that it is in Lewisham. Beacon Hostels currently have three projects in the Tower Hamlets area to provide accommodation similar to that which we associate with the YMCA and the YWCA. Some associations make short-life accommodation, in London and elsewhere, available to young people, many of whom would otherwise have been homeless.
I want to answer most, if not all, of the questions put to me by the right reverend Prelate, because I think everyone will agree that not only did the right reverend Prelate crystallise this matter, but he covered the problem which most, if not all, of the speakers saw today. I can assure the right reverend Prelate that the Government attach considerable importance to the better use of the existing housing stock. We feel as concerned about it as the right reverend Prelate himself. Since coming into Office, initiatives have been taken to direct available resources within the municipalisation programme to areas of housing stress. Priority has been accorded to local authority acquisition of properties which have been standing empty for at least two months in areas where there is a serious overall shortage of housing, or where the acquisition would relieve homelessness. Priority has also been accorded to the acquisition of properties for conversion into use as hostels. Local authorities have had the power to charge up to the full rate on empty residential property. Nearly all the London boroughs have taken advantage of this which, in the long run, helps the problem. I know that, in a sense, this may make only a small contribution, but nevertheless it is a contribution.
Some of these issues have been considered in the review of housing policy which has been undertaken by my right honourable friend, the results of which he expects to announce before long. The question of
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management by local authorities of their own stock, to ensure that the number of vacant dwellings in their ownership is kept to the necessary minimum, is to be considered by the Housing Services Advisory Group within the Department of the Environment. The code of guidance to be issued to local housing authorities, in conjunction with the new legislation on homelessness, will encourage local authorities to make the fullest use of property within their ownership, especially short-life property.
All these initiatives will play their part in meeting the concern expressed by the right reverend Prelate, and because it is an important issue that he has raised, and the Government share his views, my right honourable friend is adopting what, for want of a better phrase, might be called a "belt and braces" approach, for, in addition to the initiatives which I have described, the Department of the Environment is at an advanced stage in the preparation of a comprehensive circular of guidance to local authorities on the range of measures available to them for securing that the housing stock in their area, whether publicly or privately owned, is utilised to the full. I hope that I have at least said enough on that to assure the right reverend Prelate and others that we are aware of the position, and are not being complacent in regard to this matter.
Not all voluntary bodies which try to help homeless young people are expert in the technical aspects of housing, and co-operation with a housing association can provide the property which will be most valuable. Reference has already been made by one or two noble Lords to Centre point, a member of the West End Co-ordinated Voluntary Services, which has a small hostel where homeless young people can stay for a few months till it is ascertained how best they can be helped. An association is building a short-stay emergency hostel for the group, and the Brent People's Housing Association are providing flats for permanent accommodation. Similarly, the Special Projects Unit set up, as many of your Lordships will know, by the Notting Hill Housing Trust and Paddington Churches Housing Association have worked with the ethnic minority self-help groups, whose clients are homeless young people, to provide short-life accommodation and a group hostel.

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There is great scope for further co-operation of this kind. Under the Housing Act 1974, registered housing associations can apply for grants towards the capital costs of housing projects. Finance is provided, in the first instance, by a loan from the Housing Corporation or the local authority, and a housing association grant is paid when the scheme is completed in order to reduce the out-standing loan to a level that can be serviced from the estimated net income over the life of the project. The Housing Corporation will be considering, in the light of the report, whether its allocation of funds for hostels and housing for single people should be increased.
But let me put a figure to what the Housing Corporation is, in fact, doing. It is providing approximately £100 million a year in loans approved for single people of working age. This is not chicken-feed. Something is being done, and let us make no mistake about it. Assistance is avail-able towards the running costs of existing schemes, through revenue deficit grant and hostel deficit grant. Exceptionally, an annual deficit grant may also be given to a new project which has been approved for capital grant. Associations are norm-ally expected to contain running costs within certain limits for housing management and maintenance. However, it is accepted that projects for homeless young people may have—and very often do have—higher costs, and the Department of the Environment is prepared to pay grants towards such projects, even if the expenditure is above the normal limits. If the level of the management expenditure is such that the project cannot be regarded as being simply to provide housing, a grant may be available towards the housing costs, provided that there is continuing finance from another source to meet the excess management costs which must be regarded as welfare expenditure.
Baroness MACLEOD of BORVE: My Lords, can the noble Lord tell me how much of the £100 million is for young homeless?
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I cannot break it down. I am saying that this amount of money is provided as loans approved for single people of working age. One cannot break this down, but the fact is that young homeless people do benefit as a result of it.
Lord JANNER: My Lords will my noble friend agree that the housing association cuts are out of all proportion to what they should be in order to meet the requirements to which we are referring?
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: No, my Lords, this is not true at all. When one says "out of all proportion" one has to define what one means. The Government are not being ungenerous. Of course, there is not a single enterprise operating in this country today that could not be improved if there were more money. Where a voluntary organisation maintains centres for purposes similar to those for which reception centres are maintained by the Supplementary Benefits Commission, under paragraph 4 of Schedule 5 to the Supplementary Benefits Act 1976, the Commission have powers to make contributions from their funds. Grants are being paid to three organisations which are catering specially for young people—that is, St. Giles in Camberwell, Centrepoint in Soho, London, and St. Basil's in Birmingham. I am speaking about the Supplementary Benefits Act 1976. We have already given £73,000. Other projects receive grants, too, if they are taking in young people.
So far as my own Department, the Department of Health and Social Security, is concerned, under Section 64 of the Health Services and Public Health Act 1968 that, too, provides a further source of finance to voluntary bodies which are concerned with the homeless. Grants are made to the national voluntary organisations which function in the social services field, normally to meet head-quarters' expenses. For example, the Campaign for the Homeless and Rootless which has been referred to tonight—CHAR—and the National Association of Voluntary Hostels are already grant-aided by the Department. Not only are these two organisations grant-aided but so are a considerable number of others. In the year 1975–76 we grant-aided hostels to the extent of £142,720, and it goes a significant way towards meeting these situations.
The Department of Education and Science makes a limited number of grants for experimental projects which are of national significance within the context of the Youth Service. There are two projects

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in the Birmingham area involving homeless young people, and these two projects receive grants in consequence. The first project ran for 18 months and ended in March of last year. It involved the use of YMCA furnished flatlets as short-term accommodation for local homeless young people for whom on-the-spot counselling services were provided by a full-time, experienced YMCA centre leader. The second project, which terminates soon, has attempted to follow up and evaluate the effect of the support and counsel received by those who use the shelter known as the Boot Night Shelter, which is part of St. Basil's, to which I referred a moment or two ago. The Home Office probation and after-care department may also provide deficit finance under arrangements first introduced in 1965 for hostels which reserve places for offenders. One has to recognise that some of the homeless young people are offenders, and a good deal has been done for them.
Finally under this heading, I must refer to the grants being made by the voluntary services unit of the Home Office. The unit is making grants in excess of £66,000 to voluntary organisations which are offering help and service to youngsters arriving in Central London without proper preparation. I do not want to deal with the matter that I dealt with yesterday. The right reverend Prelate said that he has read what I had to say and that he is very disappointed with it. I accept that criticism. Some of us find ourselves in the position of not being able to say some of the things that we would like to say.
Several Noble Lords: Hear, hear!
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, noble Lords misunderstand me. I meant that some of us wish that we were in a position to say that we could do so much more. The right reverend Prelate referred to certain things that I said involving the CAB and two other organisations. Although I did not come here intending to say it, I want to take this opportunity to say that I am sorry—I want to be careful about this because noble Lords will appreciate the difficulty I am in—that I was put in the position of referring to facilities, namely the Citizens' Advice Bureau, which is just outside Euston Station, St. Philomena's, and Friends
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House, which I subsequently found did not exist. If noble Lords will allow me to leave it there, I hope that they will do so.
Baroness VICKERS: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he will consider my idea of the English Tourist Board putting up in the meanwhile a large poster containing this information? I put the question to him yesterday and I did not get an answer.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, if the noble Baroness does not mind me saying so, I do not want to pursue yesterday today. The noble Baroness made the point. No point is made in your Lordships' House in respect of anything with which I am dealing without my doing something about it, even if I do not succeed in the attempt. Whenever I have given an assurance that I will communicate things to my right honourable friend I have done so, as certain noble Lords know.
Regarding the information services to which the right reverend Prelate and a number of other noble Lords have referred, as I said yesterday, very careful consideration has been given to the question of having a booth. It is common knowledge that British Rail refused to have a booth on the concourse. I think it is common knowledge, too, that the lodge which they offered is a considerable distance away from the concourse and that it is problematic whether it would serve any useful purpose. Even if it did, one has to face the fact that a booth at Euston Station would cost something like £35,000 a year. The question of Victoria Coach Station was raised. A booth there would cost something like £28,000 a year. I understand that consideration is still being given to the matter.
When representatives of the voluntary organisations in the West End met at the Home Office on 21st January of this year, there was a discussion as to how best the needs of young people travelling to London could be met. The representatives of the voluntary organisations went away to consider how best those needs could be met and they have been given to understand that the Government will be only too happy to explore and consider any plan, or plans, that they may devise. In fact, they went away having been told

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that, notwithstanding the fact that the Government are providing £66,200 to those organisations, they are prepared to offer another £10,000 if it will help in some way.
I want to say a word about accommodation before coming to the question put to me by the right reverend Prelate. However important other parts of the report of the Working Group on Homeless Young People may be, I think nearly everyone would agree that as with other homeless people the main need is the one that has been put forward tonight; namely, accommodation. In 1975 we asked local authorities to concentrate new production increasingly on dwellings suitable for small households and we have issued design advice for single person housing. The Housing Corporation have also increased the proportion of their budget devoted to single people of working age and in the first part of this year, 1976–77, about 10 per cent, of their spending was in fact on this particular group.
The right reverend Prelate was good enough to give me some indication of what he was concerned about. On the short life property, I have tried to deal with the subject, even if it was an inadequate reply. The right reverend Prelate wanted to know whether accommodation which was unsuitable for families and which is hard to let could be made available. I have gone into this matter and the only thing I can come up with at this stage is that the Greater London Council are undertaking a pilot experiment whereby they are advertising in the newspapers all the accommodation which is available, and I understand that they are making it perfectly clear that it is for single people or young couples. This may prove to be a very satisfactory way of dealing with it. At this stage the Greater London Council do not know, nor do we, but it seems to me to be a positive way of making known to people who need accommodation that this kind of accommodation is available. The right reverend Prelate wanted to know whether vacant private sector housing could be made more easily available. The only thing I can say is that the Rent Act review which is being undertaken by the Department of the Environment will be examining this very point, but when there is likely to be a pronouncement on it I cannot say.
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Another question dealt with the possibility of amelioration of restrictions on council housing tenants and mortgagors to take lodgers. My information is that the Ministers in the Department of the Environment are in fact locking into this. I think it is possible. I would not put it any higher than that, but I think it is possible for the Government to give some guidance on this matter to local authorities. But when we are speaking about mortgages, I think the bulk of them came from building societies although I imagine that that does not mean to say that they in turn cannot be approached if the Government take a view on it. The important thing is that this matter is recognised and is being looked at.
Another question was whether lodging schemes operated by local authorities could be set up under the Housing (Homeless Persons) Bill, to which reference has been made; and I do not want to say anything about it except that the Government support it. If that Bill becomes an Act of Parliament there will in fact be a duty on the local authority to advise End assist young people. This is again a local authority matter, and if and when the Bill becomes an Act then the usual guidance would be issued by the Government as to the best way of implementing it. The next question was whether restrictions on multi-occupation could be made less severe. Again, the Government feel that local authorities should not impose unnecessary restrictions on multi-occupation so long as the amenities are adequate. We share the concern of the right reverend Prelate.
There were one or two other matters. The right reverend Prelate drew mention to Endell Street and the Methodist Church Training Centre in Birkenhead Street. With regard to the question whether the Housing Corporation can find more money for short stay hostels for homeless young people, in the time available to me it has not been possible to make a comprehensive inquiry from the regional officers of the Housing Corporation. But, so far as the Corporation headquarters are aware, no project of the type described in recommendation 4 of the Working Group has yet come forward. When such projects do come forward the Corporation will give them very sympathetic consideration in the light of the detailed proposals.

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Coming to Endell Street, I have tried to get as much information as I can. The surveyors at the Housing Corporation have inspected the property and the Housing Corporation will shortly discuss with the London Borough of Camden to what use the property might best be put in the light of housing needs.
I am almost ashamed to mention the next point. The right reverend Prelate asked what was happening to the Methodist Church Centre in Birkenhead Street. So far as I have been able to ascertain in the time available, neither the Department of the Environment nor the Housing Corporation has any knowledge of these premises. If the right reverend Prelate feels that he could let me have a note about them, he knows I shall be only too glad to pursue this matter and will let him know what can be done.
The right reverend Prelate raised the question of whether there could not be a sharing by social service agencies across the Metropolitan counties in order that the cost might be minimised. Sharing the cost of hostels for groups with special need is one of the points we shall be discussing with the local authority associations. In the last analysis it is a matter for local agreement that there are no statutory obstacles to this kind of cooperation. The report was able to point, in paragraph 2.29, to the scheme operated by the London Boroughs Association, whereby the cost to social service departments for funding hostels for drug addicts is shared between all the London boroughs. When circumstances permit, we hope that other authorities will seriously consider similar schemes.
I have not even dealt with all the questions put to me by the right reverend Prelate and certainly I have only been able to touch on a number that have been raised by other noble Lords. I do not think I should take up more of your Lordships' time. I have spoken for far too long, but this is a very important subject and whatever subjects I have to deal with always seem to me to be in a field of real significance. I merely want to express the hope that your Lordships feel that the debate tonight has been useful, that it has not fallen wholly on stony ground, that the Government are not so inactive as some noble
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Lords think, but that a great deal is being done. I shall follow my customary practice of reading Hansard tomorrow and, if I have avoided any important questions—and if so it has not been intentional on my part but due to lack of time—I will deal with them in the usual way by writing to the noble Lord concerned.

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