Sitting of 6 July 1977

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
MESSAGE FROM THE QUEEN

  DOUBLE TAXATION RELIEF
  The VICE-CHAMBERLAIN OF THE HOUSEHOLD reported Her Majesty's Answer to the Address, as follows:
  I have received your Address praying that, on the ratification by the Government of the United States of America of the Protocol set out in the Schedule to the Order entitled the Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income) (The United States of America) Order 1977. a draft of which was laid before your House on 16th May, an Order may be made in the form of that draft.
  I will comply with your request.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  SCOTLAND

    Young Persons (Employment)
    Mr. Sillarsasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received about the problems young people are facing in seeking jobs in the Scottish economy.
    Mr. Buchanan-Smithasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he has to help school leavers to find employment; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Hendersonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the latest employment prospects for school leavers in Scotland.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Bruce Millan): My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment made a comprehensive statement on 29th June, which demonstrated the Gov-
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    ernment's determination to deal with the serious problem of unemployment among young people. The new programme of opportunities for young people which he then announced will be of particular value to Scotland.
    Mr. SillarsDoes the Secretary of State recall the Secretary of State for Employment's statement that the work experience and training scheme was intended to prepare young people for permanent jobs at the earliest possible moment? Is not the earliest possible moment for many of the 75,000 unemployed young Scots a long way off, and perhaps even years away, unless there is a substantial and rapid reflation of the economy this year? Now that the reserves are in a far better position, is it not time to cut the shackles that the IMF has on us and to start to think about the interests of the Scottish working people for a change?
    Mr. Millan: I note what the hon. Gentleman says. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment has said that the importance of the work experience scheme is that it gives experience of work and that one of the criticisms of the present schemes has been that there is not a sufficient link between those schemes and the actual world of work. The proposals that my right hon. Friend made last week remedied that criticism to a considerable extent.
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: I acknowledge the short-term and temporary benefit of the schemes that have been announced, but does not the Secretary of State acknowledge that, unless there is a permanent job available at the end of these schemes, it is simply disillusionment delayed for many young people? When can young people hope for a more permanent improvement in the economy that will mean that permanent jobs will be available for them?
    Mr. Millan: I accept that the aim must be to have permanent employment, but we face a difficult situation now. All hon. Members have agreed that the proposals that my right hon. Friend announced last week made a substantial contribution to dealing with the temporary problem. With young people there is also a worry about structural unemployment. As I said in our debate on Monday, it is a problem faced not only by this country but by other countries.

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    The schemes that were introduced last week are the most comprehensive set of proposals that, as far as I am aware, have been introduced by any country in Europe.
    Mr. Henderson: I accept that the Government have taken steps to deal with the unemployment of young people, but is the Secretary of State aware that he has said nothing that will encourage young people to feel that there is a real future for them in Scotland? Is the right hon. Gentleman also aware that there is a great danger that many will seek jobs elsewhere, as many Scots have done in the past?
    Mr. Canavan: Like the hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. Millan: I accept that we want to reach as quickly as possible a situation in which jobs will be available on a permanent basis for all people in Scotland and not just for the young. However, this is a particular problem for young people and we have taken steps to deal with it.
    Mr. Grimond: Is the Secretary of State aware that the Employment Protection Act deters employers from taking on new labour, and will he consult his colleagues on its amendment?
    Mr. Millan: If the right hon. Gentleman were more specific, I should be willing to consider it, but I cannot accept what he has said as a general proposition.
    Dr. M. S. Miller: To some extent the argument is about whether reflation should be in the autumn or early next year, but as this has already been decided will the Secretary of State make sure that the questions of the Scottish economy and jobs for young people in Scotland are in the van of that reflation, because of the high unemployment rate in Scotland.
    Mr. Millan: I want to see Scotland take full advantage of any prospect that may be available. However, the number of rather unpleasant economic decisions that the Government have had to take during the last couple of years are now paying considerable dividends and it would be a pity and a tragedy if this country were to give them away. I have always accepted that the unemployment problem, in a now generally encourag-
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    ing economic position, is a black spot. I have never disguised my view on that.
    Mr. Teddy Taylor: Is the right hon. Gentleman not disturbed that after three years of his policies and despite the bonus to Scotland of oil-related jobs the number of unemployed has doubled in Scotland? Will he take seriously the point of the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) and discuss with employers in Scotland the fact that many of them have made representations to us that the Government's legislation, including the Employment Protection Act, and taxation policies discourage them from investing or employing people?
    Mr. Millan: I frequently meet employers in Scotland and these points have not been put to me as being seriously disturbing to them. If there are specific difficulties about the Employment Protection Act, I and, no doubt, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment will be happy to consider them.

    Pupil-Teacher Ratios
    Mr. Gordon Wilsonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will re-examine teacher-pupil ratios now in force.
    Mr. Alexander Fletcherasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has any proposals to improve pupil-teacher ratios in Scotland.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Frank McElhone): My right hon. Friend does not consider that any further general improvement in pupil-teacher ratios, which are better than ever before, would be justified in present circumstances.
    Mr. Wilson: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, due to the rigid enforcement of Circular 819 standards, 26 of the 50 urban primary schools in Dundee will have at least one composite class in the next session? Is he really telling us that this is an advance in educational provision? Would it not be far better to make available further finance to local authorities to enable them to take on some of the unemployed teachers who would be well employed in teaching our children?
    Mr. McElhone: We have taken on more teachers this year than last year. I do not deny that there is a serious problem of teacher unemployment. My right hon. Friend and I are extremely concerned about that, as we are about all unemployment, but we have more teachers in Scotland than ever before and the best pupil-teacher ratio ever. In present economic circumstances, it is extremely difficult to do anything more about pupil-teacher ratios.
    Mr. Fletcher: The hon. Gentleman's reply reveals a scandalous degree of complacency. Is he aware that deprived children from deprived schools in Glasgow, a city that he represents, find it more difficult to get jobs than do children from other parts of the city? Is he aware that unemployment among school leavers in deprived areas is as high as 40 per cent.? Will he therefore take advantage of the surplus of teachers to do something about deprived children in deprived areas?
    Mr. McElhone: The hon. Gentleman asked several questions. Unemployment among school leavers has nothing to do with pupil-teacher ratios. The hon. Gentleman should look at the policy contained in the White Paper of the last Conservative Government. If they were still in power they would have stopped at 53,000 teachers. We have 55,000 teachers in secondary and primary schools. The hon. Gentleman cannot bring forward such arguments given the basis of the Conservatives' policy. My right hon. Friend has said more than once that he is looking anxiously at other possibilities. There is the possibility that local authorities will wish to use urban aid to employ extra teachers in deprived areas. No doubt some authorities will examine this possibility.
    Mr. Robert Hughes: Could my hon. Friend publish the figures of pupil-teacher ratios in those parts of the West coast of Scotland that were desperately short of teachers two or three years ago? Could he also make an assessment of the extent to which the continuing shortage is the result of the EIS abandoning the designation scheme that gave a financial incentive to teachers to go to areas where they were desperately needed?
    Mr. McElhone: I could not agree more with my hon. Friend. The figures are published at regular intervals. I fully support everything that he said.

    Blairgowrie
    Mr. Crawfordasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will pay an official visit to Blairgowrie.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Hugh D. Brown): My right hon. Friend has at present no plans to do so.
    Mr. Crawford: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that there are many pig farmers in Blairgowrie—[HON. MEMBERS: "And raspberries."] Yes, raspberries too. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, by failing to implement their White Paper "Food from Our Own Resources", the Government have betrayed the pig farmers of Blairgowrie, Perth and East Perthshire and the whole of Scotland?
    Mr. Brown: The whole House is aware of the inept parliamentary performance of the SNP this week. I resent the waste of public money involved in putting down silly Questions. If the hon. Gentleman wants an answer about pigs, let him table a specific Question.
    Mr. Rifkind: If the hon. Gentleman is not going to Blairgowrie, will he consider visiting the SNP headquarters in Edinburgh and asking for a copy of the canvassers' manual, which is shortly to become a collector's piece? Is he aware that, according to reports this morning, all copies of the manual are to be withdrawn and turned into pulp? Will he join other hon. Members in pressing the SNP to pulp all its policy documents, in the public interest?
    Mr. Brown: There is a serious point here. I object to civil servants having to undertake research and produce all sorts of information for a supplementary question that may or may not be asked. The information from our researchers is more accurate than that of the SNP.
    Mr. Younger: Will the hon. Gentle man reconsider the decision not to go to Blairgowrie? Could he not go there and try to find one leading Scottish trade

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    unionist or industrialist who believes that separation would have a beneficial effect for Scottish jobs?
    Mr. Brown: I am a bit bewildered by all this. The Opposition joined forces with the SNP on Monday, and I understand that official approaches were made by the SNP in 1974, when it was apparently quite willing to join a Tory reactionary Administration.

    A75/76 (Traffic)
    Mr. Monroasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he intends to take urgent action to ease the traffic congestion on the A75 and A76, and, in particular, the bottleneck at Dumfries.
    Mr. McElhone: Work is in hand on the Newton Stewart Bypass on the A75 and on the Newbridge diversion on the A76, and a further scheme at Auldgirth, on the A76, is out to tender. Preparatory work is proceeding on further improvement schemes to bypass communities on the A75. Measures to ease traffic congestion within Dumfries are for Dumfries and Galloway Regional Council.
    Mr. Monro: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that it is not as easy as he makes out? Is he aware that the traffic bottleneck in Dumfries is probably the worst in Scotland and is aggravated by excessive container vehicle traffic from Ireland? When does he expect practical proposals on the ground for making a start towards alleviating the bottleneck and providing a ring road for Dumfries?
    Mr. McElhone: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will be aware that in 1968 the then town council commissioned a study that recommended an inner relief road instead of a bypass, because the level of traffic was so low. The regional council is now updating the traffic information, but the results are not yet available. We shall consider the matter when the report is produced.
    Mr. Thompson: Did the Minister read the recent article in The Guardian about the situation in Glenluce? Did not a blush of shame rise on his countenance when he read the article? Is he aware of the effect that the article had on hotel bookings in Glenluce, and can he give some good news for the people of
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    Glenluce, who have had to put up with so much?
    Mr. McElhone: I regret that I did not read that article.

    Laggan Locks
    Mr. Russell Johnstonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will pay a visit to Laggan Locks.
    The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Mr. Gregor MacKenzie): My right hon. Friend has at present no plans to do so.
    Mr. Johnston: If the right hon. Gentleman is unable to go to Laggan Locks, will he at least assure us that he is aware of the widespread and informed concern about the state of the Caledonian Canal, in which the right hon. Gentleman has a direct interest in view of the investment of the Highlands and Islands Development Board and the need to ensure the free passage of fishing boats? Will he at least assure us that if he were approached he would be willing to use the good offices of the Scottish Office to see whether there would be any way of preventing a further prolonged closure of the canal such as that we are now suffering?
    Mr. MacKenzie: As the hon. Gentleman knows, this is a matter for the British Waterways Board. I have met pleasure craft owners, and so forth, on several occasions. We hope to have the canal fully operational by the first week of August. It is a massive job, costing a great deal of money, which has come from Government sources. In all the circumstances the organisations concerned with it have got on with the job as quickly as possible.
    Mr. Budgen: Will the Minister take the opportunity of going to Laggan Locks as quickly as possible to make a speech about reflation? Will he explain throughout the length and breadth of the Highlands that reflation is no more than a silly name for inflation, and that once we have reflation it will be followed in about two years' time by an increase in the rate of inflation?
    Mr. MacKenzie: The hon. Gentleman had better go to Laggan Locks himself. If he does, he will soon discover that there are barely enough folk there to whom to make a speech. Such is my

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    right hon. Friend's appeal that he might draw a wider audience than that of the population of the area. He would certainly take ample opportunity to spell out the Government's view on the whole question of the reflation of the economy.

    Kessock Bridge
    Mr. Grayasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will investigate the criteria laid down by his Department in asking for tenders for the Kessock Bridge in 1975, in view of the fact that the present estimate is for £17·25 million despite inflation, as opposed to £30 million in 1975.
    Mr. Millan: The design standards to be met in each case were the same except for minor adjustments to seismic loading, which had a negligible effect on costs.
    Mr. Gray: If the design factors were very similar in each case, how does the roads department of the Scottish Development Department account for the difference in the tenders—of £30 million and £17·25 million—despite the fact that we have had two years of excessive inflation? Does he agree that it was a great mistake on the part of the Scottish Office not to ensure, when it sought offers in 1975, that the same steel supplier was employed by all tenderers? Would it not have been more realistic at that time to have prices for both a concrete and a steel bridge at the same time, and not to have lost two years as a result of delay?
    Mr. Millan: I do not know what the hon. Gentleman is complaining about. The tenders were far too high in 1975 and we decided not to accept them. I should not care to speculate whether they were legitimately so high, but we had no intention of accepting what we thought were grossly excessive tenders.
    Mr. Sillars: Does the difference between the two figures mean that the Government now have £12¾ million extra to spend on roads? If that is so, will my right hon. Friend come with me on Friday to Turn-berry to see the urgent need for a bypass around Maybole and Girvan?
    Mr. Millan: Obviously anything we save on one road makes money potentially available for something elsewhere, but the
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    demands are already over-subscribed and I am not open to any further offers.

    Tertiary Education
    Lord James Douglas-Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will consider holding an inquiry into tertiary (post-school) education in Scotland, with particular reference to ways of reducing the very high level of unemployment.
    Mr. Millan: As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment announced in the House on 29th June, there will be a substantial contribution from the education service to the Government's new programme for unemployed young people. I am keeping other aspects of tertiary education under review and do not consider that an inquiry is necessary at present.
    Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: As the right hon. Gentleman is keeping other facets of this problem under review, does he agree that there is a case for having a full inquiry into post-school education in Scotland in future, in view of the heavy amount of unemployment there? Does he further agree that such an inquiry might serve a valuable purpose if someone with the stature of Lord Scarman were to head a review into all the facts and circumstances, with a view to reducing the shocking levels of unemployment in Scotland?
    Mr. Millan: That is a rather interesting suggestion, but at present I see no case for a review. In the context of the Scotland and Wales Bill, the Government announced that in the post-devolution situation they would be anxious to see established in Scotland a Council for Higher Education, in respect of which the Assembly would play its part. We are pursuing this matter even in the pre-devolution situation, because it has met with a welcome in post-school education circles in Scotland. It is something that is well merited in its own right.
    Mr. Fairbairn: In view of that reply, will the right hon. Gentleman undergo some tertiary education himself and stop using absurd words such as "post-devolution" and "pre-devolution", which mean nothing?

    Community Parents Scheme
    Mr. Lambieasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what response he has had to the community parents scheme.
    Mr. McElhone: I understand from Strathclyde Regional Council that it has so far received 22 firm applications from people interested in becoming community parents under this scheme.
    Mr. Lambie: I congratulate my hon. Friend on his initiative in starting this scheme, which I think is unique in Western Europe and which was even praised by the Prime Minister last week in a speech that he made in Wales. Will my hon. Friend ensure that adequate resources will be made available for existing List D schools, including well-run schools such as Geilsland School, in Beith? When will he visit that school?
    Mr. McElhone: I thank my hon. Friend for those kind remarks. I know that he has a keen interest in the Geilsland List D school. I know that he visits it regularly and has close contacts with the headmaster, the staff and the pupils. As he has made his request on a number of occasions, and as I know of the good record of Geilsland, I shall seriously contemplate visiting it in the Summer Recess.
    Mr. Teddy Taylor: As the Undersecretary of State has said that there have been 22 applications, will he on a future occasion give us a firm idea of the cost of the substantial advertising and organisation of the scheme?
    Mr. McElhone: When I initiated the scheme I was very conscious of the financial restrictions. Thanks to my right hon. Friend, we managed to get £20,000 for the project. Considering the possibility of 15 young people being involved, who would cost the State more than £100 a week if they were to remain in a List D school, the limited advertising money that has been spent on the project means that the Government are getting a good bargain financially as well as a social work return.

    Unemployment
    Mr. Fairgrieveasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what action he intends to take about the steadily worsening unemployment position in Scotland.
    Mr. Millan: We have already acted on a substantial scale through the various employment protection and creation measures, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment anounced last week a further series of measures in respect of young people.
    Mr. Fairgrieve: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that in the broader context it is only in the area of the smaller business and the self-employed that we can really reduce unemployment, and that it is the type of legislation that has been referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor), which makes such people feel that it is not worth the candle and makes them unwilling to take on any more staff, that is causing unemployment? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the situation could be cured overnight if he would reduce that sort of legislation?
    Mr. Millan: I do not accept that. A new experimental scheme for a small firm employment subsidy came into operation only last week. It will run for six months initially and, for manufacturing firms in special development areas employing fewer than 50 workers, for each additional worker taken on there will be a subsidy of £20 a week for six months. This is only one example of the various measures that we have taken to help small firms.
    Mr. William Ross: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the grave position in Kilmarnock arising from the decision by the American directors of the firm of Cranes to close down—[Interruption.] I am sorry that SNP Members are not interested in Kilmarnock. Is my right hon. Friend aware of the grave position arising from the decision to close down Glanfield and Kennedy, in Kilmarnock? Will he explain what the Government have been doing to seek to prevent that, what help was given from Cranes, and what they are doing now to mount a rescue operation?
    Mr. Millan: In the first place, we had completely inadequate notice of the impending closure. Despite that, we have had discussions with a number of interested parties. There has been no viable proposal put to the Government so far. If we are able to get a viable proposal, or put one together ourselves with the interested parties, we shall be happy. Our efforts in that way are continuing and are

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    not affected by the fact that a receiver was put in on Monday of this week. I resent some of the statements that have been made by the employer which suggest a lack of effort on the part of the Government. We have acted expeditiously and with a great deal of effort. In my opinion, there has not been enough help from the management.
    Mr. Steel: Does the Secretary of State accept that the small firms subsidy scheme, which is welcome, is none the less of limited application and that he should be looking at the severe decline in the numbers of small businesses in Britain as a whole and in Scotland in particular? Will he take on board, for example, that the temporary employment subsidy does not apply to firms employing fewer than 10 people and that that is one specific example of discrimination against small firms that is harming that sector of industry?
    Mr. Millan: I do not accept that there is discrimination against small firms. I have given an example of a scheme specifically designated to help them. Perhaps I may give another example. The Scottish Development Agency is putting a tremendous amount of effort into helping small firms. It is untrue, and should not be repeated, that the Government are discriminating against small firms.
    Mr. Welsh: Does the Secretary of State realise that his answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. Crawford), on an earlier Question, was an absolute disgrace? Does he further realise that literally thousands of jobs are at stake in the Scottish pig industry? What steps is he prepared to take to protect the Scottish pig industry from its present crisis?
    Mr. Millan: The hon. Gentleman does not sound any better than his hon. Friend the Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. Crawford).
    Mr. Robert Hughes: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in order to cure unemployment it is necessary to sustain indigenous industry and to keep jobs already in existence as well as to create new jobs? Therefore, when, as I hope, he meets representatives from industry and the trade unions in the Aberdeen travel-to-work area, will he take account
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    of the fact that many indigenous industries will be more badly hit than incoming firms, with the reduction from development area status to intermediate area status, and keep an open mind about ways in which the potential damage can be eradicated?
    Mr. Millan: I note what my hon. Friend said. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State, together with the Minister of State, Department of Industry, is to meet a deputation from the Grampian area. There has been some misunderstanding about this matter. The change does not take place until 31st March 1978. Although plant and machinery grants will be lost, firms in the area will still be eligible not only for regional development grants but for other selective financial assistance under Section 7 of the Industry Act. There is still a tremendous amount of Government assistance potentially available in that area.
    Mr. Younger: Is the Secretary of State aware that many people would be astonished to hear him say several times today that he is not aware that the Government's economic and legislative policies have been severely adverse to the profitability of many companies in Scotland? Does he not think that he is getting dangerously out of touch? Will he take advice on this matter from his advisers, the CBI, the chambers of commerce and, indeed, the SDA, because he will find that they are all at variance with what he said this afternoon?
    Mr. Millan: I do not accept what the hon. Gentleman said. What I said is accurate. What he said is not accurate.
    Mr. Donald Stewartasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he has for reducing unemployment in the Western Isles.
    Mr. Gregor MacKenzie: The Western Isles have already benefited considerably from the job creation programme and other employment protection measures we have introduced. They will be further helped by the new and more comprehensive package announced on 29th June. In addition, our regional policies and the wide powers of the Highlands and Islands Development Board are designed to bring permanent new employment to the area.
    Mr. Stewart: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I did not need my Question to be numbered 13 to anticipate that dusty answer, which is the same as his right hon. Friend has been giving me for months? Did the Minister take time off to see a recent television film about the Island of Harris, which pinpointed the deprivation in that area—one of the most hard-hit areas in Scotland? Will he have consultations with two of his hon. Friends who returned from the Western Isles last week and who have a good idea of the deprivation in the area and know what is required from the Government?
    Mr. MacKenzie: I did not have time to see the television film referred to by the right hon. Gentleman but I had an opportunity of listening to his speech the other evening in the House of Commons, during which I thought that he was less than gracious to the Highlands and Islands Development Board. The Board, set up by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross)— and a fine man he is—has already spent £4 million on 500 projects involving 1,600 jobs in the Western Isles, £1½ million on individual projects of its own, and £150,000 on construction firms. The right hon. Gentleman ought to read page 17 of the book, which says that when replies are given Members should listen courteously, with interest, in a relaxed fashion, and not make derogatory remarks in any way.
    Mr. Fairbairn: If the Minister is considering the application of the new small businesses scheme, whereby subsidies are given for employing extra persons for six months, will he give a public warning that if any firm takes advantage of that scheme, employs any person for 26 weeks, and cannot afford thereafter to employ that person if the subsidy is withdrawn, it will have to pay damages for unfair dismissal? Will he also ensure that firms that are eligible for and have been given grants by the Highlands and Islands Development Board do not then set up branches in other areas to compete unfairly against them?
    Mr. MacKenzie: The hon. and learned Gentleman, together with some of his hon. Friends, has been less than fair to what the Government have done for small firms. My right hon. Friend earlier
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    referred to one specific aspect. If the hon. and learned Gentleman cares to examine the Government's record in relation to small firms—I refer to financial help, consultancy services and a wide range of help provided by the SDA and the Highlands and Islands Development Board—he will find that it is not in accordance with the adverse comments that have been made.
    Mr. MacCormick: Does the Minister appreciate that the disgraceful statement on transport recently made by the Government militates against the carrying on of any kind of economic activity in the Highlands and Islands? Will he use his influence to try to get the decision reversed?
    Mr. MacKenzie: The hon. Member made a minor contribution during the recent debate on shipping services to the Highlands and Islands. I indicated during that debate that the Government were reasonably generous in providing support for those shipping services.
    Mr. Younger: Why have a record number of small firms gone bankrupt in the last few years?
    Mr. MacKenzie: The hon. Member misunderstands the situation. Firms do not always go to the wall because of Government legislation. The hon. Member will know from his experience that small firms are often swallowed up by bigger firms. Large firms are often the biggest enemies of small companies.

    Housing Policy
    Mr. Teddy Taylorasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish a White Paper on housing policy.
    Mr. Hugh D. Brown: My right hon. Friend presented to Parliament on 28th June 1977 a consultative document entitled "Scottish Housing", which contains the findings of his review of housing policies and finance.
    Mr. Taylor: Is the Minister aware that we welcome many of the proposals, particularly those which point to the need for extra owner-occupation in Scotland? In that connection, will he give positive encouragement to local authorities that wish to offer council houses for sale to sitting tenants and at least set out the guidelines that he would accept from

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    councils that wish to put forward such schemes?
    Mr. Brown: I appreciate the general welcome for the Green Paper. I am not prepared to give a directive urging any local authority to consider selling council houses. It is all spelled out in the Green Paper. If local authorities submit schemes that form part of comprehensive housing plans, they will be considered in the context of those plans.
    Mr. Welsh: Regrettably, this seems to be the day of the non-answer. Is the Under-Secretary aware that 160,000 houses in Scotland are below accepted minimum tolerable standards? Is it true that he can give no date when those houses will be brought up to such minimum tolerable standards? If so, what kind of policy is that?
    Mr. Brown: The hon. Gentleman is trying desperately hard to make an impression, and he is failing. The number of houses below the tolerable standard increased because there was a raising of what we considered to be the tolerable standard. I am not complacent about this matter. This is one of the biggest single problems in Scotland. I recognise that many houses below the tolerable standard are in rural areas. All I can say is that in the past many housing authorities—not Labour-controlled—should have built more houses.
    Dr. M. S. Miller: Will my hon. Friend tell the House exactly how many, if any, houses would be made available as a result of selling municipal houses to tenants?
    Mr. Brown: The selling of a council house does not add a single house to the housing stock. I see that hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition Benches agree. The selling of council houses does not make additional houses available and does not make any serious contribution to better housing in Scotland.

    Licensing (Scotland) Act 1976
    Mr. Rifkindasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he will make a statement on the working of the Licensing (Scotland) Act 1976, with particular reference to Sunday opening.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Harry Ewing): The new licensing boards were set up with effect from 1st July, and the first occasion on which they can consider applications for Sunday opening of public houses is their statutory meeting in October. First indications about the longer opening hours, introduced last December, show that they have not led to an increase in drink-related offences, but the previous evening peak of offences after 10 p.m. seems to have shifted to a peak after 11 p.m.
    Mr. Rifkind: Will the Under-Secretary undertake to monitor the effect of Sunday opening in Scotland so that the statistics for drunkenness and other offences connected with drink are not lost among general statistics?
    Mr. Ewing: I thought that the hon. Member was going to say that this is one piece of Government legislation that has not affected business. The Government are considering the possibility of monitoring the effect of Sunday opening. At the moment we are analysing the result of a survey carried out in November last year and March this year.
    Mr. Carmichael: It has been suggested that the peak of drink-related offences has shifted from 10 o'clock to 11 o'clock. Can the Minister be more specific? The experience in my area, which is fairly heavily populated with public houses, is that there is a more relaxed attitude to drink and that the spread of hours has led to fewer offences. Can the Minister give us some more detailed figures, if not today, at a later date?
    Mr. Ewing: The number of offences related to drink has dropped. The number of drink and driving cases has dropped by 20 per cent. The number of accidents where it is suspected that the driver has taken drink and there is, therefore, a policeman on the scene has also dropped by 20 per cent. People are taking a more relaxed approach to drink. This is one of the redeeming features of the Government's action to reform the licensing laws.
    Mr. Teddy Taylor: Is more, less, or just about the same amount of alcohol being consumed? Has the Minister included in the offences related to drink offences involving violence?
    Mr. Ewing: In the first three months of 1977 25 million gallons of beer were consumed. That is exactly the same as the amount consumed in the first three months of 1976. The latest figures are for a longer drinking period, taking account of the extended hours.
    We did not include crimes of violence in drink-related offences. That is because people may be charged with a different offence when they eventually appear in court. It is difficult to analyse such statistics.
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: Does not the phrase "more relaxed attitude towards drink" accurately describe the situation? Have not the people of Scotland shown a more responsible attitude towards drink? Does that not bear out the fact that we in Scotland do not require a paternalistic attitude to be taken in matters such as this?
    Mr. Ewing: The hon. Member should not get too euphoric about the figures. The number of drink-related offences has decreased, and we are grateful for that, but they have decreased from very high levels. It would be wrong to suggest that we have solved the problem. We have not. No one should consider that we have solved any problems in this respect. I am prepared to amend my earlier answer and say that people are faking a more relaxed and responsible attitude towards drink. For this we axe grateful.

    Redpath Dorman Long Limited (Methil)
    Mr. Gourlayasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if, in view of the loss of more than 1,100 jobs at the Redpath Dorman Long yard in Methil and the possible redundancies in another factory in the area, he will make a statement on the current position following the representations made to him by the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy.
    Mr. Gregor MacKenzie: I understand that RDL is tendering for further platform orders. With regard to the factory referred to by my hon. Friend, officials have had discussions with the management but I cannot say more today.
    Mr. Gourlay: Is my hon. Friend aware that the run-down at the Redpath Dorman Long yard has had a considerably adverse effect on the local economy. Can he say in which fields, other than Murchison,
    1238
    RDL is tendering for platforms? May we have an assurance that the Minister's Department will do everything possible to assist the employment situation in the other factory I have mentioned?
    Mr. MacKenzie: I concern myself with the situation that is arising at RDL. The firm is tendering for both the Murchison and Tartan fields. My hon. Friend in the Department of Energy is actively pursuing platform orders. The position of the factory itself is still the subject of discussion, as are one or two other applications to my right hon. Friend and myself. Tomorrow I am going to my hon. Friend's constituency to see Nairn Floors. It is encouraging to see an important Scottish firm having the confidence to expand in the way that this company is expanding.

    Dunoon
    Mr. MacCormickasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will pay an official visit to Dunoon.
    Mr. Gregor MacKenzie: My right hon. Friend has at present no plans to do so.
    Mr. MacCormick: If the Secretary of State cannot visit Dunoon in his ministerial capacity, perhaps he will do so as a tourist. If he does, will he bear in mind that the Scottish tourist industry has, in the last year or two, suffered a serious decline? In the absence of the Scotland and Wales Bill, will he take immediate steps to allow the Scottish Tourist Board to be independently represented abroad, in the hope that it can attract more tourists to Scotland?
    Mr. MacKenzie: My right hon. Friend has for a long time been concerned with tourism in Scotland. The grants made to the Scottish Tourist Board and the incentives that it has given are to be commended. The interests of Scottish tourism are adequately covered in all parts of the world.
    Mr. Heffer: Will my right hon. Friend take into account that some English tourists might have been put off by slogans on Scottish walls which read "English Go Home"?
    Mr. MacKenzie: My hon. Friend makes that point very neatly. I am sure that he heard my right hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross), in his important contribution to the debate

    1239
    on Monday, saying that that sort of nonsense and emotive stuff does no good for Scotland at all.
    Mr. Fairbairn: Will the Minister take note that the village of Blackford, in Perthshire, which serves the tourist industry, will cease to serve it if the present absurd proposal of the Scottish Development Agency to make it a one-entry/exit bottleneck is carried out?
    Mr. MacKenzie: My hon. Friend looks forward with keen anticipation to answering a specific Question on that subject, which is listed No. 22 on the Order Paper.

    Scottish Trades Union Congress
    Mr. Canavanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he next expects to meet the Scottish Trades Union Congress.
    Mr. Millan: With my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and other colleagues, I shall be meeting the STUC on 26th July.
    Mr. Canavan: As the trade union movement is currently under attack from the Tories over the Grunwick situation and from the SNP, which insulted the Scottish Trades Union Congiess at its recent party conference, will the Minister see to it that the Labour Government remember their loyalty to the trade union movement by, for example, paying more attention to the STUC's demands for a more Socialist economic strategy, which will help to provide jobs for the 170,000 unemployed in Scotland, especially school leavers?
    Mr. Millan: I always pay attention to what the STUC puts to me.
    Mr. Monro: Will the Secretary of State consider the possibility of providing additional incentives in special development areas? Does he appreciate that where there is between 12 per cent. and 16 per cent. unemployment, something further is required in these areas of exceptional difficulty?
    Mr. Millan: The hon. Gentleman must have missed the announcement made by the Secretary of State for Industry last week about the special development areas, which has improved the incentives there.
    Mr. Crawford: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell his hon. Friend the Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Canavan) that the only party that has upheld the STUC view that there should be no further public expenditure cuts in Scotland is the SNP, and will he also tell him that we shall be looking very carefully to see how the hon. Member for West Stirlingshire votes if this ever comes up again?
    Mr. Millan: I think that the STUC takes a very realistic view of the SNP—that is, that it considers it utterly useless.

    Scottish Assembly
    Mr. Reidasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received within the last two months on the Government's commitment to set up a Scottish Assembly within the life of the present Parliament.
    Mr. Harry Ewing: My right hon. Friend has received the Deliverance of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland on devolution. No other representations on this subject have been made to him during that period.
    Mr. Reid: Is not the Minister being a little coy in glossing over the representations of the Scottish Council of the Labour Party on 10th June, to the effect that unless an Assembly is guaranteed Labour's credibility in Scotland will be totally compromised? How does he define that in terms of his own statement, two years ago, that the Assembly was bang on target, that elections would be held in 1976, and that the Assembly would be in being three or four months ago?
    Mr. Ewing: I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that the Scottish Council of the Labour Party made its representations to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. He should know better than that. The representations were made to my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council. The hon. Gentleman's Question asked specifically about representations made to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. The Government are committed in the next Session to introduce a Bill dealing with devolution for Scotland and Wales, and that is the Government's restated and firm commitment.
    Mr. Canavan: During the next General Election campaign, when the Scottish Assembly will already be in existence, what advice will my hon. Friend give to SNP canvassers in Stirlingshire?
    Mr. Ewing: If my hon. Friend is asking me to speculate about an SNP canvassing manual in West Stirlingshire, I should imagine that it would go something like this: "Don't vote for Canavan. He is a Communist", or to the Communists "Don't vote for Canavan. He is a Catholic". The Catholics would be told not to vote for Canavan because he had some other fault. At the end of the day, however, when the votes are counted, I think that we shall find that by far the vast majority of people have voted for my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Alexander Fletcher: What are the Government's latest intentions with regard to holding a referendum on devolution in Scotland?
    Mr. Ewing: The Government's intentions on the holding of a referendum in Scotland were made perfectly clear during the Committee stage of the Scotland and Wales Bill, before the Bill was eventually withdrawn. The Government still remain committed to the principle of a referendum, but obviously not a pre-legislation referendum. That ought to be made perfectly clear.
    Mr. Sillars: Will the Minister confirm that the Prime Minister has now made this a confidence issue and that that gives it a far better chance than it had previously?
    Mr. Ewing: I am really just a junior Minister. I have no authority to speak for my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, who is well able to speak for himself.

    SHERIFF COURTS
    Mr. Canavanasked the Lord Advocate how many official visits he has made to sheriff courts in 1977 to date.
    The Lord Advocate (Mr. Ronald King Murray): None so far, but I have plans to make several visits in the near future.
    Mr. Canavan: Before his next visit, will the Lord Advocate tell us a little more about yesterday's announcement of
    1242
    the inquiry into the courts? Will it have the power to investigate the advisability of prosecuting pickets, in view of the farcical situation in England, where more than 200 people have been arrested at Grunwick, and in view of the fact that even the hon. and learned Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Mr. Fairbairn) has been known to turn up at Glasgow Airport with his placard to join a picket line protesting about certain foreign visitors?
    The Lord Advocate: No doubt my hon. Friend has his own predilections for peaceful picketing, which he carries out successfully. In reply to the general question, the terms of reference of the committee that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have set up were given in a Written Answer yesterday and will be referred to by me in reply to a later Question today.
    Mr. David Steel: Will the Lord Advocate's visits include visits to the sheriff courts in the Borders and, if so, will he say, then or now, whether the sheriff services in the Borders will continue in future to be on a residential basis or whether we shall be reduced to having itinerant sheriffs from Edinburgh?
    The Lord Advocate: The right hon. Gentleman is putting forward certain problems that I should look into, and I shall do so.
    Mr. Gordon Wilson: In the course of his visits to the sheriff courts, will the Lord Advocate look out for those that have the capacity to deal with divorce actions, and make early arrangements for the transfer of jurisdiction to those courts in order to save considerable expense both to the litigants concerned and to the legal aid fund?
    The Lord Advocate: The hon. Gentleman knows that this is a matter that has been very fully discussed in the House. He has already had very full replies to questions about these problems. However, I take note of them.

    PICKETING
    Mr. Fairbairnasked the Lord Advocate how many prosecutions for unlawful picketing his Department has initiated in Scotland in the last seven years.
    The Lord Advocate: During the past seven years by Department has initiated many prosecutions of persons who committed common law offences, such as assault, breach of the peace or malicious mischief, during situations which could be loosely termed as "picketing". Precise figures are not available.
    Mr. Fairbairn: Does the Lord Advocate appreciate that I appreciate that reply? Will he, great lawyer as he is, confirm that he will not feel in any way bound by or that he is not in any way likely to imitate the attitude of the Attorney-General in England, who has made the pronouncement that one may suspend prosecution because of a threat of industrial action? Will he ensure that the law is prosecuted whenever a criminal offence is committed, whatever other considerations there may be?
    The Lord Advocate: In so far as the hon. and learned Gentleman has implied a criticism of the learned Attorney-General, I do not associate myself with it. The hon. and learned Gentleman will be aware that the offices of Lord Advocate and Attorney-General are entirely separate and independent, and are governed by entirely different conventions, although obviously there is an area of community between the two offices. I can give the assurance in general that any report of alleged offences in this area would be considered by me for possible prosecution on the same basis as any other alleged crime.

    ROAD TRAFFIC OFFENCES (PROSECUTIONS)
    Mr. Monroasked the Lord Advocate when he intends to raise prosecutions against drivers of goods vehicles in Scotland accused of offences against the Road Traffic Acts who have in the past avoided appearance in court on account of domicile in Northern Ireland.
    The Lord Advocate: Procurators fiscal do bring prosecutions against this category of drivers. In the vast bulk of road traffic offences, prosecutions are brought by serving a summary complaint on the accused person by post. In deciding whether or not to commence a prosecution by this means, procurators fiscal apply the same considerations in the case of persons domiciled in Northern Ireland
    1244
    as they do in the case of persons domiciled in other parts of the United Kingdom. With regard to persons domiciled in Northern Ireland, however, postal service carries no enforceable legal sanction.
    The Criminal Law Bill, which is presently before Parliament, contains a provision that will make service of a Scottish summary complaint effective in any other part of the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Monro: Will the Lord Advocate accept my appreciation of his work in the Criminal Law Bill to stop this loophole, which has caused much heartburning in Dumfries and Galloway? Will he further appreciate that the local residents and tourists are living a very hazardous life because of the standard of driving of some of the container lorry drivers from Ireland, and that anything that he can do about it will be much appreciated in the area?
    The Lord Advocate: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's comments. This is a difficult problem, in which prosecution plays only a limited part.

  COURTS (WORK LOAD)
  Mr. Teddy Taylorasked the Lord Advocate, pursuant to his answer of 25th May, what alternatives to prosecution he is considering to ease the pressure on courts.
  The Lord Advocate: As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State fo rScotland said in a Written Answer to a parliamentary Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Pollok (Mr. White) yesterday, he and I have decided to set up a committee of inquiry with the following terms of reference:
  "To consider the effect on the criminal courts and the prosecution system of the volume of minor offences at present dealt with by summary prosecution and whether some other process might be devised to deal with such offences while maintaining essential safeguards for accused persons."
  The chairman of the committee will be Lord Stewart and the other membership will be announced later.
  Mr. Taylor: Can the Lord Advocate give us any idea whatsoever of what alternatives he is thinking of, other than

  1245
  prosecution? I appreciate that a committee has been set up, but have the Government any idea whatsoever of what they have in mind? Does the Lord Advocate agree that pressure on the courts is very serious and that in the Glasgow area it is becoming intolerable? Does he further agree that the best way of reducing pressure on the courts would be to have stronger and not weaker deterrents, and to have a fully manned police force?
  The Lord Advocate: I know that the hon. Gentleman takes a very sincere interest in this matter, but he is perhaps asking me and my right hon. Friend to pre-empt the deliberations of the committee. It is obvious that this committee has been set up with these terms of reference to consider what would be the best method of dealing with this problem. Perhaps I may say, as an example—but merely as an example, because I do not want to pre-empt the deliberations of the committee in any way—that this could be regarded, in one of its aspects, as looking to see what relatively trivial offences can be de-criminalised.
  Mr. Rifkind: Will the Lord Advocate ensure that the committee considers the possibility of on-the-spot payment of fines for parking offences in circumstances in which the offenders do not contest their liability for the fines?
  The Lord Advocate: Again, that is obviously one of the matters on which the committee would want to deliberate. There are points to be made on both sides of such a recommendation.

PUBLIC HEALTH ACT 1936 (AMENDMENT)
3.30 p.m.
Mr. Clement Freud: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Public Health Act 1936.
In four instances in my constituency constituents have suffered distress and financial hardship. Each case has involved a constituent in substantial legal costs and, but for the inherent decency of the solicitors of Wisbech, many of them would now be bankrupt. After two years none of those concerned has seen any real light at the end of the tunnel, despite the promise by local authorities or the Anglian Water Authority that the cases might receive an out-of-court settlement.
The common predicament of these four cases is that each constituent had sewerage or drainage works in his street. In one case, an elderly couple had bought a house for their retirement and within months of their moving in a main sewer was built within a few feet of the house. In this case the Anglian Water Authority's agents advised the couple to move out because of the danger of the house collapsing into the newly dug trench. My constituents moved out and had to stay out in a caravan at the bottom of their garden for 10 weeks before they were given the all-clear to return. Their claim for compensation has gone from water authority to district council to county council with no success to date.
Two other cases concerned filling stations situated between traffic lights put up by the drainage-sewerage contractors. As a result, cars, though not totally unable, were obviously utterly unwilling to spend the time required to get into the forecourt of these filling stations. Since anyone who needs petrol is already mobile, it is obvious that substantial losses were sustained by the garage proprietors.
The fourth case concerned a village store situated on what was turned into a single carriageway to enable the water authority's agent to put in a main drain. In this case the village store remained virtually inaccessible for 12 months; for that year there was no way in which anyone in a car could use the car park of

1247
the village stores, and the lady in question finally went out of business last November.
In each case total sympathy was expressed by the contractors, the local authority and the water authority. They were helpful and hopeful, but it is, I accept, the duty of any legal adviser to protect his employer from making payments if he can possibly help it. In each case Section 278 of the 1936 Public Health Act, the section under which claims for compensation and loss of earnings are brought, was invoked and found to be so totally open to interpretation or misinterpretation that no awards have been made.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but he is advancing something very much like a case for an Adjournment debate. He must now outline the reasons why the House should give him permission to bring in the Bill.
Mr. Freud: I am very grateful, Mr. Speaker. That was the next matter on my brief. I had a three-minute preamble.
Section 278(1) of the 1936 Act says:
"Subject to the provisions of this section, a local authority shall make full compensation to any person who has sustained damage ".
That seems fairly clear, were it not for subsection (3), which states
"No person shall be entitled by virtue of this section to claim compensation on the ground that a local authority have in the exercise of their powers under this Act declared any sewer or sewage disposal works".
It is the conflict between those two subsections that has made it so easy for the local authorities to get out of doing what would appear to be their duty.
Also, as the legal adviser to the water authority has pointed out, at present the current and the prospective loss must be compensated for at the same time. Once the claim is settled and the compensation paid, the claimant cannot reopen the matter. Paragraph 19 of the Third Schedule to the Water Act, which relates to the laying of water mains and drains, provides for the paying of compensation from time to time. That is what I should like to have added to Section 278.
It is sometimes said that when there is an irreconcilable inconsistency between two provisions in the same statute—as there is between subsections (1) and (3)
1248
of Section 278—the later should prevail. However, that is doubtful and the better view seems to be that the court must determine which is the subordinate provision. Clarification here is another change that I should like to see made to Section 287.
Section 278(2) provides for an arbiter to assess the damage for any sum up to £50. That Act, however, was enacted in 1936, when £50 represented 12½ weeks of the national average wage. The sum is therefore quite out of date and I would propose to raise it to £2,000. But my main contention is that, although the arbiter is empowered to assess the amount, he is not authorised to determine the rights and wrongs of the case, nor to consider submission on points of law. It is here also that I propose amendment.
There is a general lack of clarity in Section 278, which is to the detriment of many of my constituents affected by substantial drainage and sewerage works. It is the council's contention that construction or nuisance must be on the plaintiff's property. That appears at first sight to be reasonable, until one reflects that road works, which are on the council's property, that is, on the highway, can make access or egress impossible for the customers of a small business. That provision ought to be removed.
The legal adviser of the water authority says in a letter:
"It has been judicially said that in order for a claim to arise under Section 278 it is necessary for the claimant to show that he has a claim at common law, but, by reason of the statutory authority contained in the Act, his right is not to claim for damages but for compensation, the amount of which, if necessary, is to be settled by arbitration. Further, if the authority act unreasonably or are negligent so as to exceed the scope of the statutory authority, then the claimant must seek his remedy in the courts, since his right then becomes one of entitlement to damages and not one of claim to compensation."
When the question of negligence comes up, it is unclear whether negligence is poor work or dilatory work. When a sewerage drain takes a year to be laid, I suggest that negligence is manifested by undue delays. It is such delays which have caused a great deal of financial suffering.
The legal adviser's letter goes on:
"There are no decisions that I have been able to find in the higher courts dealing with the question of whether or not there is any

1249
right to compensation for loss of profits arising out of the laying of sewers in the public highway. I do know that it is the attitude of at least one water authority that no right to compensation arises under Section 278, although I am not aware of whether or not the authority considers there to be a right of damages at common law."
I should like the Government Law Officers to re-examine Section 278 in the light of what I have said.
I think that it will be appreciated that it is the lack of clarity in the Act that has caused such great expenditure on legal advice to my constituents. Even if Section 278 had said that no one shall have any claim on anyone, anyhow, anywhere, it would have saved my constituents great legal costs. For these reasons, I ask permission of the House to amend the Act.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Clement Freud, Mr. Emlyn Hooson, Mr. Richard Wainwright, Mr. Cyril Smith, Sir David Renton, Mr. John Hannam, Mr. Jonathan Aitken, Mr. Brian Sedgemore, and Mr. Ken Weetch.

PUBLIC HEALTH ACT 1936 (AMENDMENT)
Mr. Clement Freud accordingly presented a Bill to amend the Public Health Act 1936: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 15th July and to be printed. [Bill 154.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  EUROPEAN ASSEMBLY ELECTIONS BILL
  [FIRST DAY]
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Mr. Speaker: Before I call the Secretary of State for the Home Department, I should inform the House that I have already had indicated to me that, so it seems to me, nearly half the House wishes to speak in this two-day debate. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where are they?"] I have no doubt that hon. Members have good reasons for not being in the Chamber until the debate begins. But I must warn right hon. and hon. Members that even if this were a four-day debate those who have written to me could not possibly all be called. This puts on those lucky enough to be called a greater responsibility for bearing in mind the needs of others.
  3.32 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Merlyn Rees): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  As you have indicated in your reference to the interest of hon. Members, Mr. Speaker, this Bill is a major constitutional measure. It concerns a new type of election, since never before in the history of Europe have nine States proposed to hold elections in the same body at the same time. It embodies a new electoral system, since, if the House approves the regional list system, it will be the first time that an election has been held throughout the United Kingdom on the basis of proportional representation.
  Fundamental constitutional issues are involved. We have to decide whether to participate in elections to a body outside this country. We have to decide the electoral system to be used. We have to decide the detailed procedures of the election. On all these matters it is for this House to decide.
  The consequences of our decisions will be substantial. They include the manner in which our electorate and our political parties will conduct the election and the whole relationship between the directly elected member of the European

  1251
  Assembly and his region and, indeed, this Parliament. The House will wish to give all these matters full and careful consideration.
  The Bill seeks to give effect to the decison of the Council of the European Communities, agreed on 20th September 1976, when Her Majesty's Government undertook to use their best endeavours to be ready for direct elections to the European Assembly by May-June 1978. The Bill was anticipated in the Queen's Speech of November 1976, which contained a commitment to introduce the necessary legislation in the current Session of Parliament.
  The Government accept Britain's membership of the European Community as endorsed by the British electorate in the decisive referendum of 1975. From time to time we need to re-examine the nature and role of the institutions of the European Community.
  The Government accept that the Community is a developing one and that it is right that we should now move towards direct elections to the European Assembly. After 19 years of nominating members of the Assembly from the national legislatures of the member States, the time has now come to provide for direct elections on the basis of universal suffrage. At the time of the refrendum campaign the non-democratic nature of the European Assembly was rightly criticised and direct elections will provide a new accountability of the Members to their local electorates.
  Mr. Neil Marten: In that case, why was it not mentioned in the Government pamphlet?
  Mr. Rees: Not all these issues were written into the collective or individual manifestos. Nevertheless, the issue of direct elections was discussed at the time, and in any event now is the chance to discuss it in the place where the decisions will be taken—here.
  I should emphasise that these direct elections are being conducted on the basis of the present limited powers of the European Assembly. No increase in those powers is possible without the unanimous consent of all nine member States of the Community, and that would involve the express approval of this Parliament.
  The many issues involved in direct elections have already been the subject
  1252
  of much examination and discussion. The Government published a Green Paper in February 1976, the Select Committee has produced three reports, and there was a White Paper this April. The issues are clear and will be spelled out in this debate. The time has now come for decision, and it is for Parliament to decide.
  Mr. Eric S. Heffer: My right hon. Friend has now stressed twice that it is for Parliament to decide and that the issues must be discussed at considerable length, and so on. Will he give an assurance that at no time during the passage of this Bill will there be an attempt by anyone, across the Floor or otherwise, to bring in a guillotine motion?
  Mr. Rees: On that issue I think that it would be as well to wait and see where we get on the Bill.
  Besides the principle of direct elections, which will be decided by the vote at the end of this Second Reading debate, the central issue in the Bill is the electoral method to be used. That White Paper outlined three possible methods—the simple majority system, the regional list system, and the single transferable vote.
  The debates in the House on the White Paper, which took place on 20th and 25th April, made it clear that there was very little support for STV but significant support for both the simple majority system and the regional list system, and the Bill enables the House to make a clear choice between these two systems. Before I describe the detailed provisions of the Bill, I should explain the procedure for making the choice of electoral system and the Government's recommendation.
  Clause 3(1) provides that the method of election should be the regional list system. At that point in the proceedings the House will be able to debate and vote on which electoral system is to be used. Clause 3(2) is simply a procedural device for enabling two contradictory methods of election to be contained in the same Bill and for that Bill still to make sense. The Government felt—and it was brought out during the debate in April—that the House could make an informed decision on the electoral system to be used only if it could see, in detailed

  1253
  legislative terms, precisely what would be involved in each case, rather than vote without benefit of the Bill before it. Indeed, the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) made the point that decisions of this kind should only be taken when the broad panoply of the Bill could be seen and not in isolation.
  Mr. J. Enoch Powell: Is it the intention of the Government to bring in at the appropriate stage a motion that would enable the question to be deferred until the House has been able in detail to examine the two systems? Otherwise we appear to be in the absurd position of taking a decision between one or the other, at any rate for one or the other, without the opportunity in detail to examine the implications.
  Mr. Rees: It is certainly the Government's intention that the decision should be taken. That is why the Bill was drawn up in the way that it was with regard to Part I and Clause 3. Without any commitment, I should be happy to listen to any arguments that are put forward, because there is no doubt that the major issue inside the Bill—once principle is decided—is the method of election. I shall certainly listen to the arguments put forward in the next two days and consider them.
  Mr. John Mendelson: In spite of the scoffing that we have heard, can my right hon. Friend explain the reason for putting two proposals into the Bill for consideration? Can my right hon. Friend say by what authority the Government make their recommendation in favour of PR? Has the Labour Party or any other political party ever been consulted? My right hon. Friend has talked about the authority of the manifesto with regard to the principle of the Bill. Where is the authority for PR?
  Mr. Rees: My hon. Friend asks a perfectly proper question, but at the end of the day it is for Governments in this House to decide what it is that they are putting for decision. Of course, it is this House that will decide and at the end of the day all of us are responsible to the electorate for the decisions that we take.
  Sir Anthony Royle: Will the right hon. Gentleman give an
  1254
  assurance that the House will have an opportunity to press the Secretary of State to set up the Boundary Commission to look into the prospects of starting work on the boundaries for the first-past-the-post system so that when the vote takes place between the systems there is still the possibility of having the first-past-the-post system as well as PR?
  Mr. Rees: I shall listen carefully to what the hon. Gentleman says in" the debate. I shall come to the question of timing in a moment, because it is right that I should deal not only with PR but with the first-past-the-post system as well as the Boundary Commission's proposals.
  Whatever the decision of the House, the Government will then move the necessary amendments to remove from the Bill all references to the electoral system not favoured by the House. The procedural device in Clause 3(2) will have served its purpose and will also be deleted.
  The Government recommend to the House acceptance of the regional list system set out in Part II and Schedules 3, 4 and 5 of the Bill. Whilst I acknowledge that support—indeed, I have no option—for such a system is, of course, an important step in favour of proportionality, I want to emphasise that our support for a proportional representation system of election can only extend to this particular election to this particular body.
  Although the European Community intends to move towards a common electoral system for all member States, this is likely to take some time. It has to be remembered it took the Community 20 years to reach the likelihood of direct elections at all. Britain will, of course, have every opportunity to express its view on the common system to be adopted in future. [HON. MEMBERS: "In the next 20 years."] Hon. Members say "In the next 20 years". That is repeating what I have said, and I am grateful for that support. The simple majority system, with STV in Northern Ireland, is set out in Schedules 1 and 2 of the Bill.
  There would be a total of 79 new single-Member constituencies—66 for England, eight for Scotland and four for Wales— and these would be drawn up by the respective Parliamentary Boundary Commissions. Each Boundary Commission would be required to draw up these new Assembly constituencies by grouping

  1255
  together whole parliamentary constituencies in such a way that the electorate of each Assembly constituency was as near the electoral quota as reasonably practicable having regard, where appropriate, to special geographical considerations.
  The Boundary Commission procedures set out in Schedule 2 follow option B of paragraph 30 of the White Paper, which we discussed some months ago. This provides for one round of representations but no local inquiries for the initial division into Assembly constituencies and in evidence to the Select Committee the Boundary Commission suggested that, from the time of Royal Assent up to the submission of its reports, this option would take a minimum of 18 weeks.
  The hon. Member for Richmond, Surrey (Sir A. Royle) referred to timing. I shall consider this very carefully. But as a Junior Minister I recall this House interfering with Boundary Commission procedures. If it is the case that the House should decide to proceed with the new constituency arrangements in advance of the final decision of the House, that would be a profound change in the whole principle of Boundary Commission procedures. Nevertheless, whether or not there is any argument in this respect which can be put forward, I would simply say that, whatever the best intentions the House itself never seemed to take very kindly to interfering with well-set procedures of the past.
  Mr. Gwynfor Evans: Is the House to deduce that the whole of Wales will have only four representatives in this Parliament compared with six for Luxembourg and 14 for the Republic of Ireland? Is that the case?
  Mr. Rees: That is the case and as a Welshman born and bred I am glad that it is, because we are part of the United Kingdom. Wales is not independent and the people of Wales do not want to be independent. We are not Luxembourg or the Republic of Ireland. We are Wales, proudly part of the United Kingdom.
  Northern Ireland would use STV and there would be a single three-member constituency, so no boundary procedures would be necessary.
  I now turn to the regional list system. In arriving at their recommendation of
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  the regional list system the Government have been guided by the following considerations. [HON. MEMBERS: "The Liberals."] It may well prove that there are a substantial number of hon. Members from the official Opposition who are in favour of the regional list system. We ought to wait and see before hon. Members start to make deductions, however relevant they may be.
  First, the regional list system is liable to produce a British delegation to the European Assembly which is more representative of electoral opinion than would be the case with the simple majority system. Our traditional simple majority system has considerable strengths and virtues. It is one that is firmly rooted in the Westminster arrangements and, of course, underpins all that the Government believe about the form of government for Westminster.
  However, one of the characteristics of a simple majority system is its tendency to exaggerate swings in electoral opinion. We all know that. In an election for the European Assembly where there are only 81 seats as opposed to 635 this tendency would be much exaggerated.
  Without the use of a proportional representation electoral system for the European Assembly, it might be that there would be such a wide divergence between the balance of power at Westminster and the party composition of the British delegation to the European Assembly that there would be a real danger of friction between the Government at Westminster and our representatives in Europe. Furthermore, the credibility of the British delegation in the European Assembly might well be undermined by such a result.
  However appropriate the simple majority system is for elections to Westminster, it is important to recognise that the European Assembly is different. It is not a legislature. It does not provide a Government. Its members do not have the same constituency responsibilities as Westminster MPs.
  In this context, therefore, the regional list system actually demonstrates by itself that the European Assembly is different from our national Parliament, and thus different methods of election are appropriate in this case.

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  If the House does not accept the Government's recommendation on a regional list system and instead supports the simple majority system, the Government nevertheless believe that Northern Ireland should use a system of proportional representation. Since the single transferable vote has been used for local government, Assembly and Convention elections there since 1973, we believe that STV with Northern Ireland as one three-member constituency should be used.
  Mr. Powell: Will the Secretary of State agree that one essential difference between the assemblies that he has just mentioned and either this House or the European Parliament is that all those assemblies are bodies that are limited in powers and extent to Northern Ireland?
  Mr. Rees: I understand that the right hon. Gentleman's experience in Northern Ireland is based on the fact that, unlike some of us, he has been elected in Northern Ireland. With this experience he must agree that Northern Ireland is different, and the special circumstances there make it appropriate for direct elections in Northern Ireland to be conducted by a system of PR, whatever is decided for the remainder of the United Kingdom. Therefore, Schedule 1 provides for STV for Northern Ireland.
  Mr. Heffer: This is a very important point. This is a one-off election. Whatever we decide—whether it be the first-past-the-post system or a regional list— is for one time only. What will happen to Northern Ireland after that? What will happen to our own system when it becomes submerged in a uniform system?
  Mr. Rees: That is a matter for this House to decide. This is a one-off system. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for pointing that out. Our decisions for the long-term future will have to be decided in this House at an appropriate time in the future.
  Mr. Tim Renton (Mid-Sussex): Will the Secretary of State confirm that with the regional list system it would be perfectly possible for an individual candidate to receive the most votes in his region but not to be elected because his party had not received a sufficient percentage of the total? Is that satisfactory?
  Mr. Rees: Certainly that is the case, because under the system one is voting for a party and within that party people can vote for an individual. If the hon. Member wishes to swap curiosities of what might happen he could take an extreme situation in the first-past-the-post system. It would be possible if there were sufficient candidates for someone to be elected and not have a majority of votes. In Committee we can swap these oddities. Basically the system is that proportional representation is for the party, and the voter can decide on the individual within that party.
  Mr. Nick Budgen Mr. Nick Budgen (Wolverhampton, South-West) rose—
  Mr. Rees: I shall not give way. There will be a Committee stage when we can proceed on these matters.
  The details of the simple majority system are familiar to the House but the regional system is new to us all. This afternoon I simply wish to explain the principal features of the system. It is an electoral system designed for a particular election in a particular country and it has been evolved to meet our own special requirements.
  The 12 electoral regions to be used— specified in Clause 4 and Schedule 3— are well-known economic planning regions, with one exception. South-East England, which would be entitled to 24 out of the 81 seats, has been divided into two by separating the Greater London Council area from the remainder. The number of seats allocated to England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland— specified in Clause 2—is as recommended by the Select Commitee and the number of seats allocated to the nine English regions—specified in Schedule 3 —is on the basis of electorate.
  Clause 5 provides that those eligible to vote in direct elections will be those eligible to vote in Westminster elections, plus peers.
  Mr. David Price: Will the Secretary of State accept that the proposal for the South-East Region, in terms of identification with Members, is electoral nonsense? To put my people in Southampton with those in Bedfordshire and Essex is nonsense.
  Mr. Rees: I have no doubt that these arguments will be deployed in Committee and we shall listen to them with interest.
  Clause 9 provides that, apart from certain Community limitations, those eligible to stand for election will be those eligible to stand for the House of Commons, plus peers and clergy. There is no requirement that candidates should or should not be Westminster Members of Parliament. As set out in Schedule 4, each elector casts one vote for one named candidate.
  A feature of proportional representation is that it uses multi-member constituencies so that the number of candidates in any one constituency or region can be substantial. If the names of the candidates are simply listed alphabetically the elector is faced with a formidable list and—as I know from my experience of STV in Northern Ireland—there is an alphabetic advantage to candidates at the top of such a long ballot paper. Consequently, the Government have designed a new form of ballot paper for the regional list system and this is set out in the appendix to Schedule 4.
  The titles of the competing political parties are listed alphabetically and vertically and then, under each party description are listed that party's candidates alphabetically but horizontally. This form of ballot paper will be easier for the elector and it should reduce substantially any alphabetic advantage.
  The total votes cast for all candidates of each party in a region is calculated and the parties are allocated seats in that region in proportion to their total share of the poll in that region. The procedure for allocating the seats is described in Rule 50 of Schedule 4 and is known as the highest average principle.
  The first seat goes to the party with the largest total number of votes. A calculation is then made as to the average number of votes per seat in the case of each party if the second seat were given to that party. The party which would have the highest average number of votes per seat is allocated the second seat.
  Dr. Alan Glyn: Very simple.
  Mr. Rees: Yes, it is very simple and it can be clearly understood by anyone who applies his mind to it.
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  The procedure is repeated until all the seats in that region are allocated among the parties. The principle is clear, namely, that at any given stage of the allocation the party that gains the seat is that party which at that point would have the highest average vote per seat.
  Mr. Tim Renton: Crystal clear.
  Mr. Rees: Yes it is crystal clear, even to lawyers.
  Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this crystal-clear system could create a situation in which two candidates for one party — say, independents — find themselves in a situation in which one of them gets an overwhelming majority of votes and the second is then elected, even though the number of votes cast in his or her favour may not even be half as many as those cast for the first?
  Mr. Rees: Precisely. But the elector will be voting for a party. There are oddities in the system, but there are oddities in all systems and this must be taken into account. Once the number of seats has been won it is up to each party to determine that these are given to individual candidates with the highest number of votes.
  Mr. Mike Thomas: I shall try to help my right hon. Friend, because I appreciate his problems. I am not ill-disposed to the regional list system. Will he accept that the ballot paper he proposes with the problems involving the alphabetical order of candidates to determine the personal vote will cause difficuties? For example, would not the former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Huyton (Sir H. Wilson), be at a disadvantage because he would be at the right hand side of the ballot paper and would receive fewer votes than somebody whose name happened to be "Albertson"?
  Mr. Rees: My hon. Friend can deploy that argument in Committee, but my view is horizontal—[Laughter.] I can see that the House is disposed to treat this matter with all the seriousness of a major constitutional issue.
  Mr. Heffer: We are.
  Mr. Rees: It is better in my view to have the names on a ballot paper set out

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  horizontally rather than vertically. As I have said, these matters are better argued in Committee than in a Second Reading debate.
  One problem with any PR system is the filling of vacancies. If conventional by-elections are held, the turnout is liable to be low because the multi-member constituency is geographically very large and the result is not proportional because only one seat is at stake and the largest party in the region wins it.
  In Clause 7 and Schedule 5 the Government have set out our recommendations as to how this situation can be dealt with. If the House decides to accept the recommendation on the regional list, the best place to investigate the subject is in Committee, because it is appropriate that it should be done that way. Considerable thought has been given to the matter and the House will find that Schedules 3, 4 and 5 provide a sensible and well-thought-out scheme for giving effect to that division.
  This is a major constitutional Bill. The decisions which the House takes on the Bill may well in practice decide whether and when the first direct elections to the European Assembly are held—not just in Britain, but throughout all nine member States of the European Community. Our decisions will shape the composition and standing of the British representatives in the directly elected European Assembly. We are in Europe to stay and it is time that this House put its mind to elections for the European Assembly.
  I commend to the House the Bill and the Government's recommendation of the regional list system. This is a matter for the House to decide, and I hope that all parties will make their decision, because it is important for individual Members to express on major issues their belief in the future. That is the way we shall proceed.
  4.13 p.m.
  Mr. John Davies: The Home Secretary has repeatedly said that this a major constitutional issue, and I do not disagree with that view. I strongly commend to my Conservative colleagues, and indeed I commend to the House, that we should respond to that issue of principle by giving a clear and positive
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  answer. We should say "Yes" to that principle, and we should do so despite deep and understandable misgivings about the contents of the Bill.
  What the Home Secretary said about the contents of the Bill did very little to relieve those misgivings. Indeed, I fear that it has somewhat accentuated them. The misgivings concern both the circumstances in which the Bill is introduced to the House and the construction of the Bill itself. I shall say a little more later about both those questions, but I should like first to underline the fact that the Conservative Party on this and on allied matters has proved throughout to have been absolutely consistent. I have confidence that it will be consistent today.
  The Conservative Party believes in a European future. We have said so repeatedly when this subject has been debated. I know that our party has a minimal number of dissenters on that principle, but I am sure that on this occasion the Conservative Party will make absolutely clear to the House and to the country its assent to the purpose which this Bill seeks to serve.
  Mr. Heffer Mr. Heffer rose—
  Mr. Davies: I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman in due course when I have got a little further in my remarks. We should bear in mind Mr. Speaker's request to the House.
  Mr. Heffer: It is on this point.
  Mr. Davies: I shall come to the hon. Gentleman shortly.
  There is a need, despite all the reservations that may exist, for the vast majority of the House to express itself profoundly in favour of the purposes of the Bill, because I believe that direct elections to the European Parliament are the next step in the evolution of a truly democratic Community. I believe that that is the essential underlying purpose with which we are now concerned. We have a Community which still needs the full infusion of a democratic process which direct elections to the European Parliament alone can provide.
  I hope that the view of the Conservative Party, and indeed of this House, will be clear and vivid. Equally, I hope that it will be uncompromised by political

  1263
  opportunism or short-term expediency which may exist elsewhere.
  Mr. Heffer: The right hon. Gentleman is making a good deal out of his party's attitude on this matter. Is he saying that there will not be a free vote among Conservatives on this Bill?
  Mr. Davies: The issue of the free vote on the electoral system has already been made abundantly clear by me on a previous occasion. On the Bill itself, I believe that it is the will of the party that we should vote as unanimously as we can. In saying that, I make reasonable provision—and the House can chatter as it will—for individuals who for a very long time have consistently held a different viewpoint. I respect that viewpoint. I do not, and could not, share it, but I could not at this moment of time expect them to dissent from a view which they have long expressed on these occasions. But they are few in number—unlike the situation with which the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) is confronted on the Labour Benches.
  Mr. Norman Tebbit: Is my right hon. Friend saying that he wants the party tomorrow night to vote as nearly unanimously as possible for what he agrees is a bad Bill, and that it will then be quite all right for everybody to go his own way in putting right the defects in that bad Bill?
  Mr. Davies: I am sure that when we reach the Committee stage—and when that will be we do not know—there will be a very large number of views which may indeed cause a split among many of us within our own parties. But on the issue of principle with which we are today concerned—and that is the issue whether we do or do not wish to elect our parliamentarians to go to Europe to represent us—I hope and believe that there will be no dissent in our party other than from those who for many years have expressed that dissent.
  I speak first of the objections to the circumstances in which the Bill has been introduced. The truth is that for virtually 18 months we have seen a great deal of procrastination, deferment, and evasion by the Government in seeking to handle the system. It is nine months since the decision of principle was taken to which the Home Secretary referred, despite at
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  that time the majority decision of the Labour Party Conference. But as a result there was a clear and unequivocal statement by the then Foreign Secretary, Mr. Anthony Crosland, who is now, unfortunately, dead.
  The trouble was that that decision, so clearly announced and shared with our partners in Europe, has since become debased—as has the expression to which the Labour Government then lent their names, which was to use their best endeavours to procure that these elections should take place in May-June next year. We in the Conservative Party have consistently exerted pressure for the necessary Bill to give effect to that international undertaking. We have continually pressed both the Prime Minister and the Leader of the House to bring forward the necessary material on which the House could express its opinion, and the Government have equally persistently evaded doing so.
  This process has taken many months. Most recently we had the production of what to most of us seemed a totally valueless White Paper at the beginning of April. It contained nothing new and posed no new considerations. In our view, it could be interpreted only as a wish once again to gain time.
  Equally, we have constantly pressed for an early debate and an early decision to be taken by the House on the electoral method to be incorporated into the Bill. When these questions have been put to the Leader of the House, he has frequently responded by using his unquestionable talent to manipulate the House rather than to lead it in the way that his duty demands. The repeated assurances that the right hon. Gentleman gave in April, at the time of the White Paper debates, that the Bill would contain all the conclusions to be drawn from the debates held on 20th and 25th April, have been entirely betrayed by the Bill. Despite what the Home Secretary said, the Bill could not seriously be construed by anybody as a response to the debate on the White Paper. It is a response to something different—a response to the problems of political manoeuvring, not at all to the will of the House.
  Now this much-delayed Bill has been submitted to the judgment of the House. But no one believes—and the Prime

  1265
  Minister has not sought to have us believe—that it is the Government's intention that the Bill should be passed into law this Session. The final humiliation for the Government, who integrally attached themselves to a Queen's Speech in which they declared their intention to introduce this legislation, is that there is now a relapse into the public fragmentation of the Cabinet before our eyes.
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell me of any other country in Europe that has passed its legislation?
  Mr. Davies: I have been closely in touch with each of the member countries in recent months. Not one of them, apart from ourselves, has any doubt about procuring the legislation necessary to have these elections on the due date in May-June 1978. It is idle for the Home Secretary to pretend that the same problems face other member countries as face us. It is not true. The Prime Minister gave his unqualified assurance, but unworthily he has failed to carry it through.
  Mr. John Mendelson: The right hon. Gentleman has a record of being correct on his facts, whatever hon. Members may think about his conclusions. However, does he not accept that in the French Assembly only 21 days ago there was a majority against a European direct elections, which forced M. Barre and the President to have it passed on a motion which did not lead to a vote? There is no record in the French Assembly of a majority vote in favour of direct elections.
  Mr. Davies: I accept, just the same, that as a result of the proposal to hold a vote of confidence the issue was then decided. What I said to the Home Secretary is correct. In France and the other member countries there are no obstacles to elections being held in May-June 1978, as there are here. Therefore, we alone hold the key for the Community as a whole on direct elections. I have made this subject a matter of profound study, and I am content that what I say is correct. I cannot accept that there is any question of any other country being faced with the kind of problems that we face.
  Mr. Heffer: We have democracy here.
  Mr. Davies: Is it democracy for the Prime Minister to give our eight partners
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  an assurance that he would try to use his best endeavours and then to show a total lack of action for nine months to give effect to it? That is not democracy. It is not the sort of democracy that we expect from a Prime Minister of this country.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. James Callaghan): As the right hon. Gentleman is challenging me, let me say that of course there are peculiar difficulties about this Parliament—of which I hope all hon. Members will be proud—which do not exist in the Parliaments of our neighbours. I have said many times that, because other countries do not have the system of first-past-the-post elections, because people there are constantly used to voting for the party and not for the individual, in most cases their problems are far less than ours.
  However, it is for the House to decide. I hope that it will decide in favour of the Bill and the regional list system. But I have always made clear to our Continental partners that if there is one thing that I cannot do it is to command votes in this House in the way that they seem to be able to do in their Parliaments.
  Mr. Davies: However, the right hon Gentleman need not have allowed nine months to elapse before allowing Parliament to have its say.
  The Prime Minister: The delay has been part of the process of getting people to understand the necessity for this legislation. Persuading is part of democracy.
  I begin to despair of any constitutional change—whether on devolution, reform of the House of Lords or direct elections— ever being able to get through this House without a guillotine.
  Mr. Davies: Despite what the Prime Minister says, the impression that he has managed to create—and to create among people who do not necessarily have any ill-will on this subject—is one of persistent procrastination. When, at the end, the matter comes in the form of a Bill before the House, that Bill looks like a political document, used as a piece of the right hon. Gentleman's survival package, not at all as a means of achieving the purpose to which he is addressing himself.
  Therefore, the whole responsibility for the delay, and for the problems that we now face in dealing with the delay rests

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  squarely on the Government's shoulders and must not be transferred to Parliament. It is only now that Parliament has the opportunity to try to deal with it.
  I come to the construction of the Bill. I was very interested in the Home Secretary's remarks. I found them strangely in contradiction of my own reading of the Bill. However, I am sure that he is much better advised than I can be.
  In Clause 3(2) the Government are asking the House to pass into statutory form an arrangement which says:
  "If after the passing of this Act the House of Commons by resolution so directs,"
  various things will happen. The right hon. Gentleman said just now that that was not the Government's will. He said that before the Bill became an Act a decision should be taken on the alternatives offered in Clause 3. That represents something of a different form of words, at least, from that which seems to be in the Bill.
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: I know that there are those who find this amusing, but the Government's view was that it would be better to have both alternatives clearly set out. The purpose of Clause 3(2) is purely procedural. The decision was taken on very firm advice that this was the only way to get two methods into one Bill. Once a decision has been taken one way or the other, Clause 3(2) falls from the Bill, and we then proceed with the method that we shall decide.
  Mr. Davies: The most important question we have to ask the Home Secretary— he can reply now or it can be replied to later—is how that decision is to be taken. Is it the intention that the Government will put down amendments to their own Bill in order to allow us to take that decision? That is not implicit in the Bill as presented.
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: Certainly we have an amendment ready. The Government favour the regional list system, but for the benefit of those who want to vote in another vein, we have an amendment drawn up, which we shall assist people to put down, and that will enable a decision to be taken under Clause 3.
  Mr. David Price: Surely the House is to be asked to determine whether it is in favour of the regional list system
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  before having a discussion on any alternative method. That is the first proposition, surely. These alternatives are not on level pegging. There will not be a broad debate and a decision on one method or the other. We have to decide first, surely, on the regional list method, voting either for or against it.
  Mr. Davies: The form of drafting is unusual. It is, in fact, so unusual as to pose a great series of different questions in one's mind. I do not know whether my right hon. and hon. Friends are all perfectly clear about the Home Secretary's response. I am not. I freely admit that.
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: Clause 3(2) is simply a procedural device and is there only to enable us to have the two methods in the Bill. That is all. If hon. Members will look carefully they will see that the regional list system and the first-past-the-post system are both in the Bill. We were advised that unless we used this device of having Clause 3(2) in the Bill, we could not do it. Once the House has decided on the method—and the Government recommend the regional list system —Clause 3(2) falls, and we proceed on the Bill that we want.
  Mr. Davies: I still think that, rather than trying to analyse the matter in exchanges across the Floor, it might be better if the Home Secretary could suggest, to whoever is to speak later in the debate from the Government Front Bench, that it should be gone into more profoundly, because it is still unclear to us on what we are to vote in trying to procure the very decision of which the Home Secretary has spoken. Until that is clarified there will continue to be profound misgiving on how the Bill is intended to operate.
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: It is our view that the vote on Clause 3(1) will be the occasion when the House will decide on the method of election with which it wishes to proceed.
  Mr. Davies: I am bound to tell the Home Secretary that the words which still confuse us are
  "after the passing of this Act"
  Is the Home Secretary saying that that is a procedural device and has no validity as a constituent part of the Bill? He may

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  imagine that I am deliberately being difficult, but that is not so.
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: It is a procedural device which is there only to enable us to have both methods in the Bill. Once a decision has been taken on the method, that part will fall. It is purely a procedural device.
  Mr. Davies: It will be open to the House to reach a clear conclusion on this matter before getting to the remainder of the Bill, so to speak?
  Mr. Rees: I repeat that, from the Government's point of view, Clause 3(1) is the occasion. The Bill has been constructed in this way to enable the House to take a decision.
  Mr. Robin Maxwell-Hyslop: I think that what the Home Secretary has said is that we are to be invited to give a Second Reading to a Bill which he does not want to see passed in the form in which he is asking us to give it a Second Reading, on the undertaking that there will be an amendment, which will not be a Government amendment and which we shall not see until after we have given the Bill a Second Reading. That, I think, is the proposition which we are asked to accept.
  Mr. Davies: If we persist with this point, I think that we shall only confuse ourselves still further. I have a feeling that the Home Secretary will realise that the matter still requires some clarification. No doubt he will arrange for that to be given.
  The next question on the Bill as drafted is whether the alternative methods which are proposed to the House are valid alternatives. As we understand it—I referred to this earlier—it seems improbable that we shall proceed to finality with the Bill this Session. It seems likely that we shall have the Bill reintroduced at the beginning of the next Session. It seems extremely likely that the Bill will take a certain amount of time in its passage through the House. Are we to assume that at that time the Government will be content that they can still attain the target date of May-June 1978, or are we to understand that the Government have already abandoned that target date?
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  It is important for us to know, because it is not impossible that a situation could arise in which one of the alternatives could still be feasible by the target date, whereas, by virtue of the lapse of time, it would simply not be practicable to bring the other into effect. We must know very clearly from the Home Secretary that he is not putting before the House a Bill which recites alternatives, one or other of which may prove in the end to be totally invalid, at least within the time frame which we are discussing.
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: There are no Boundary Commission procedures with the regional list system. There are arguments, no doubt, about the planning regions, but this House would be stating what the electoral areas would be The White Paper—I think it was a valuable one—explained the position, and if the right hon. Gentleman had read it he would not have had to ask the questions he has asked today. The advice of the Boundary Commission is that on the other option it would take 18 weeks after the passage of the Bill. It is impossible for the Government to say how long the Bill would take to get through the House of Commons, because there are 635 experts on every clause. Undoubtedly with the regional list system one could move far more quickly than with the first-past-the-post system.
  Mr. Davies: If that is so, perhaps the Home Secretary has considered already by which means he should immediately proceed in order to ensure that, when the Bill is passed, the alternatives are indeed valid alternatives. What steps has he taken and what intentions has he to ensure the validity of those alternatives?
  Mr. Phillip Whitehead: What is the attitude of the official Opposition to the question of contingency work by the Boundary Commission being started once the House has established which form of voting system is to be used?
  Mr. Davies: The Home Secretary has the benefit of a very wide degree of advice on these matters, but I am doubtful of the statutory ability of the Boundary Commission to proceed in that way. But it would seem to me at least practical for the Home Secretary to find some method whereby he will not have

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  to come to us in due course and say that, despite all the Government's good intentions, one of these systems is invalid and cannot be pursued. Before the end of the debate he must give some reply to that, because it is a matter which clearly exercises us all.
  The Prime Minister: This only shows how wise I was to use the words "best endeavours". I have always explained to our Continental colleagues that we have a system of Boundary Commissioners and that, depending on how long it took and how many procedures we went through, this might make it impossible for us to make the target date in 1978. [Interrupton.] It will not be the end of the world if it is not 1978. I have always said to my colleagues on the Continent that it might have to be 1979 if the procedures were proper. But there is such a fundamental issue between the regional list and first-past-the-post systems that, since I have only used the phrase "best endeavours", we should not tie ourselves and say in all the circumstances that, because we have said that we shall try to meet the 1978 target, that must rule out any alternative system of election.
  Mr. Davies: We welcome the Prime Minister's words. Equally, he underlines strongly what I said about the need to have proceeded earlier in order to try to achieve the target date. On the whole I think that we can take some comfort from the Prime Minister's remarks. It is an issue which has deeply worried us, and we now find ourselves faced with this dilemma.
  Mr. Budgen: Will my right hon. Friend explain how important is the question of time to the official Opposition and whether it is the intention of the Opposition to assist the passage of the Bill through Parliament at some stage by whipping the Tory Party with a three-line Whip to support a guillotine motion?
  Mr. Heffer: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Are we now in an extended Question Time, or is the right hon. Member for Knutsford (Mr. Davies) still making his speech?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Oscar Murton): The Chair admits that the interventions are becoming fairly frequent. Perhaps it will be possible for the right
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  hon. Member for Knutsford (Mr. Davies) to continue with fewer interruptions.
  Mr. Davies: I hope that that might be so, though I think that some of the exchanges which have taken place produced necessary clarifications. Indeed, I am not entirely resentful that it was the hon. Member for Walton who happened to lead the band.
  As for the remark by my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen), I think that, given that there is a clear indication that the Bill will not be proceeded with to finality during this Session, we have enough before us in dealing with it on Second Reading, and the issues that may subsequently emerge as a result of this or some other Bill being presented to us in a new session, will deserve further consideration at that time.
  I am deeply glad that both the Government and my side of the House are to allow a free vote on the electoral system. I, for reasons which I shall not repeat, since they have been frequently alluded to, that I am not over-concerned as to which of the alternatives is adopted. I refer to the issue of the precedent involved which looms not so frighteningly in my mind as it does in the minds of others.
  The one point on which I took slight issue with the Home Secretary was his rather indifferent attitude to the constituency responsibilities of hon. Members elected to the European Parliament. I think that those responsibilities will be substantial, and they therefore assume a real importance in terms of the attribution of Members to constituencies. For that important reason, and that there will not have to be two changes, I marginally prefer the first-past-the-post system to the other. But I freely admit that I do not regard this issue as being the essense of the problem.
  In terms of the generalities of the broad purpose of the Bill, I believe that those who are deeply concerned by the sovereignty issues—I understand their concern—still do not understand the full nature of the difficulties and doubts that exist here and in member countries about the extension of the European Parliament's rights in the Community. In view of the constitutional obstacles which exist

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  in France and Germany, to say nothing of those here to which the Home Secretary referred, the thought that the European Parliament will quickly change its fundamental powers and rights seems very remote. I do not rank that as a major issue.
  Our failure to meet the target date would be regarded with great concern by our partners. There would be even greater concern if there were no firm, fixed alternative date available and if it were impossible to say when it will be. If that were the case the other members would regard us as a Britain which had let them severely down.
  I once again call upon the whole House to give a resounding "Yes" to this Second Reading, and at the same time not to let the Government off without a severe reprimand for the delay with which we have been faced in dealing with what is, as the Home Secretary said, a vital constitutional issue.
  4.47 p.m.
  Mr. David Steel: Before I come to the technical intricacies of the Bill, I hope that it will be in order to make a passing reference to the principle. I, for one, welcome that principle. Whatever our views on the Common Market, we all have criticisms of that institution and its policies, particularly on agriculture, and we should all like to see improvements. But the biggest single improvement that I should like to see is that it should become more democratic and less bureaucratic.
  I believe, therefore, that the advent of direct elections is extremely important. Indeed, the very concept of nine different nations joining together to elect members to a common Assembly for the first time in history ought to be rather exciting. I hope that we do not lose sight of that principle in the welter of detailed discussion that we naturally must have on the Bill.
  Much has been made politically about the divisions in the Government on this question. I think that we should stop and take note that no European issue has been carried through this House except on a cross-party basis, irrespective of which party has been in power. It is not necessarily a bad thing, when we make constitutional decisions of this
  1274
  importance, that it is the votes of a free House of Commons that determine the matter.
  It is only too easy to play up politically the divisions in the Government. The right hon. Member for Knutsford (Mr. Davies) indicated that there will be the right to dissent among members of his own party who have a long-standing antagonism to the Common Market. That is perfectly right and proper as well.
  Mr. William Molloy: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will agree that not only should the parties in this House have time to consider and examine all that is involved but that all the various organisations in the country should have that time as well. This is the sort of thing that the right hon. Member for Knutsford (Mr. Davies) was clearly ignoring when he condemned the fact that we have had nine months to discuss this massive constitutional issue.
  Mr. Steel: I do not dissent from that. As for Europe as a whole, every other member State has got over the difficulties —the two that had particular difficulties were France and Denmark—which were in their way to meeting a common election target for May or June of next year. It is for that reason that, in a sense, I slightly differed from the view expressed by the Prime Minister.
  Although I accept that it is not the end of the world if we do not meet the deadline of 1978, it is important that we should try to meet that deadline. It would be a pity if this country were the one member out of step and therefore the one member that put the brake on the development of Europe on to a more democratic basis.
  I, for one, make no bones about it. I am keen to see the May-June deadline of 1978 met by this country. For that reason, I hope that the Opposition will be prepared to assist the passage of the Bill. I dissent from the view of the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Gardiner), expressed in his article in The Daily Telegraph earlier this week, when he said that no harm would come from delaying until 1979, or even 1980, the need for direct elections. He went on to argue that the Treaty of Rome could be amended to meet the peculiarities of the British electoral system.

  1275
  That does not seem to reflect the speech that was made by the Leader of the Opposition in Rome about the Conservative Party's commitment to Europe. I hope that we shall see that commitment demonstrated in support of the legislation.
  When it comes to the intricacies of the Bill, I declare my position immediately. I would much rather the Government had indicated their recommendation in the Bill—full stop—and that we were now facing a Bill with a regional list. However, those who dislike the regional list and who advocate the first-past-the-post system would have had legitimate grounds for complaint had that been done, so we can see that, difficult and tortuous though the Bill is, it is perfectly understandable and acceptable as a means of providing the House with full alternatives set out in a legislative form. Although this is not the way that we should have liked, I hope that we shall proceed without any doubt or incomprehension on behalf of the Opposition spokesman about the method chosen.
  Mr. Douglas Hurd: Would it not have been more comprehensible if the House had been able to make a decision on the method so that it would have established for the Government the system that it prefers?
  Mr. Steel: It would be a most peculiar suggestion that we should discuss the detail and the method before the House has come to a decision on the principle of direct elections, as it will do tomorrow. I reject that view.
  Strange observations have been made on the electoral system—not least by the Foreign Secretary, whom I am glad to see here. The right hon. Gentleman said, in a speech, significantly, at Saffron Walden the other day, that Labour supporters should not be put off this system because the Liberals support it. That is a way of winning friends and influencing people. Another peculiar view was indicated earlier during the Home Secretary's speech. It is that some form of proportional representation is a bit too difficult for us. It is all right for clever people like the French, the Germans and the Irish, but it is wholly beyond us to understand it. I find that an absurd proposition. I say to those who are keen to try to point out the total absurdities in the
  1276
  regional list system that we can point out total absurdities in any system.
  If one considers the first-past-the-post system and applies it to the 81 constituencies—given the high salaries that it is rumoured will be offered to European members and the number of possible candidates from all sides—it would be possible, if there were 100 candidates in one of those constituencies, for a member to be elected with a little over 1 per cent. of the vote. Of course it would not happen, and neither would some of the absurd anomalies that have been illustrated to try to destroy the regional list.
  Mr. John Mendelson: The right hon. Gentleman is putting forward a travesty of an argument. I do not know of anyone who is suggesting that others are clever enough to have proportional representation but that the British are not. The main indictment is that most historians agree that the destruction of the Third Republic in France and the downfall of the Weimar Republic were, to a considerable extent, due to a system of proportional representation.
  Mr. Steel: I must hand it to the hon. Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson). Those are new arguments. However, he forgot to add the fall of the Roman Empire.
  We must discuss this matter on a rational basis. The Government are right to recommend this system. They are right to spell out, in the schedule to the first-past-the-post system, the necessary shortened Boundary Commission procedure that would have to be adopted if we were to have any hope of meeting any sort of electoral deadline. I regard the shortened procedure for the Boundary Commission as wholly repugnant, and the Home Secretary was right to point out the dangers of destroying the set procedures of recommendation, local inquiries and the rights of every community in the land—a right that they have always had—to make representations why they should or should not be included in particular constituencies.
  It should be clearly pointed out that the schedule, as it stands, eliminates a major part of our democratic process, presumably in the interests of trying to meet the May-June deadline. That is inexcusable, and it is one of the reasons

  1277
  why the Government are right in recommending the regional list system.
  Another reason why the Government were right in that matter—and this has been accepted by independent commentators—is that such a system would produce a fairer result, whatever that result may be. I take note of what the right hon. Member for Knutsford said in hoping that short-term political considerations would not sway anybody in these matters. There could be a short-term political advantage for the Conservatives. It would not be a bad thing for them if there were elections next year on the first-past-the-post basis, because if public opinion were the same then as it was in the local elections last May it would give the Labour Party only 10 of the 81 seats. That would be a short-term political advantage to the Conservative Party, but the boot might be on the other foot on future occasions. One can never be absolutely certain. We have had experience in local government elections of good serving councillors losing seats not because of lack of ability but because the party to which they were attached, and which was in government at the time, was unpopular. There is no reason why we should impose that on the European delegation. It would be right for our European partners to turn to the British and to claim that we were distorting the balance in the European Assembly by insisting on an election system that gave an unfair representation in that Assembly.
  There are other arguments. Hon. Members are rightly jealous of their territorial designation as hon. Members for a particular constituency. They would be rather worried about having someone like a super MP with a larger territory, including their own constituencies, who would be identified as the Member—European—for their constituencies. The advantage of the regional list is that it would not imply any such thing. The delegation to the European Assembly would have been democratically elected and would represent, as nearly as possible, the different views of the people. The system that the Government have written into the Bill is not the one that we would have chosen—
  Mr. Powell: I am sorry to interrupt, but the right hon. Gentleman had just
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  reached the point about the identification of a representative with a constituency. Under the regional list system, who polices, as it were, the actions and behaviour of the Members of the Assembly? Would the blame rest with the party on whose list the Members stood when they were elected? How would the relationship be maintained between the electorate and their representatives?
  Mr. Steel: Surely there would be a combination of both, as, indeed, there is in our present democratic system. Clearly, when Members came forward for re-election they would be judged by their parties for inclusion on the list and by the electorate as a whole. I would not have chosen this system, but it is nevertheless better than the first-past-the-post system.
  Moreover, there are misconceptions about the system. Contrary to what was said by the hon. Member for Reigate, it would not be possible for a party to demote someone on the list, because the party would not determine the order. That is the advantage of this system over the list system in West Germany, where the parties can do that. Here, the elector could indicate by his vote his preference for the candidates on the list, and that would be of great advantage.
  Mr. George Gardiner: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree, nevertheless, that it would be perfectly possible, under this proposed system, for a party whose Member in the Assembly had failed to please the hierarchy, in some way, to drop that Member from the list altogether? Is that not a most terrible sanction?
  Mr. Steel: I hope that the hon. Member for Reigate has heard of Dick Taverne at Lincoln, the present right hon. Member for Newham, North-East (Mr. Prentice), and various others. That is not unknown.
  The system of double representation in the House and in the European Assembly cannot be continued on any permanent basis. That is another reason for welcoming the passage of the Bill. It is wholly unsatisfactory to send hon. Members from this House on an appointed basis to attempt to do two jobs.

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  The European Parliament must develop its own powers of control over the Commission and Council of Ministers. The methods that this House has for the control of European policies are totally inadequate. That is why it is right that the people of this country should have the chance to send representatives to represent their interests in the European Assembly.
  5.0 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Stewart: I concur strongly with the general reasons given by the right hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. Steel) for passing the Bill. I do not think that I need to add anything on the issue of direct elections.
  Mr. John Mendelson: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. In view of what has been said from the Front Benches—namely, that there is a dividing line right through the political parties on this important constitutional reform— would it not be right for the Chair to consider calling alternative speakers representing more than one point of view? We have now had four speakers in favour of the proposition.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: A list has been drawn up by Mr. Speaker and there will be a balance, which will develop during the course of the debate, among right hon. and hon. Members who hold varying views. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that this will be the case.
  Mr. Patrick Cormack: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Could we consider a first-off-the-Benches system rather than a list system?
  Mr. Stewart: The proposition that Britain and other members of the Community should hold direct elections to the Assembly is a necessary consequence of Britain's membership of the Community. I doubt whether there is anyone who wants Britain to remain a member of the Community who would oppose the holding of direct elections. Opposition to direct elections will come from those who do not want Britain to be in the Community.
  Mr. Bruce Grocott: Is there any evidence from the French experience that the only consistent
  1280
  position to adopt is to be in favour of the Community and in favour of direct elections? Is not the experience of French membership, especially in the view of the Gaullist and other parties, almost the opposite?
  Mr. Stewart: I was speaking not about the French but about hon. Members who will have to decide this issue here. Opposition to the general principle of direct elections comes from people who do not want Britain to be in the Community. They are entitled to their view, but it is as well that the House should be aware of what is really at issue.
  Opponents of the Bill are not, in general, saying that they are all for the Community but want to get in by ways other than direct elections. Those who oppose the Bill in principle are really saying that they do not like Britain's membership of the Community.
  Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Will the right hon. Gentleman take it from me that the question before us is not a repetition of the debate on whether the House approves or disapproves of direct elections? It is whether the Bill should have a Second Reading. There are many who believe in Britain's membership and have canvassed for it but who are opposed to the Bill as the instrument for bringing about the direct elections that they wish to see.
  Mr. Cormack: It is possible to believe that Britain should be a member of the Community and to have campaigned for membership and yet to believe that the time has not come for direct elections. The right hon. Gentleman must not be arrogant about this matter. Many hon. Members have serious misgivings about this issue of principle even though they desperately wanted Britain to become a member of the Community, voted for accession and campaigned in the referendum for continued membership.
  Mr. Stewart: If the clock shows a fairly long interval between the time that I started and the time that I shall finish my speech, it will not be mainly my fault.
  If I am voting on the Second Reading of a Bill, I consider whether I want a Bill of that sort at all and whether I want that particular Bill. Those who do not want a Bill of this sort are, with perhaps a few exceptions, those who want Britain out of the Community. There are

  1281
  not many who say that they want direct elections but do not want them now. I am sure that my hon. Friends who were making noises earlier in my speech fall into the category of those who plainly want Britain out of the Community, and it is as well to be aware that this issue underlies our debate.
  I do not propose to say anything further on the vital issue of having direct elections. In our debates on the Bill we shall be arguing mainly about the method and timing of elections.
  My preference is for the first-past-the-post system, though the arguments against a regional list or any form of proportional representation are much weaker when applied to the European Assembly than when applied to the Westminster Parliament, because this is a sovereign Parliament and one of its powers and duties is to make it possible for a Government to be formed. It also has the power to destroy Governments. At no time in its history will the European Assembly find itself in that position.
  There was a good deal more to be said for the argument of my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson) about the effect of proportional representation on pre-war France and Germany than some hon. Members seemed to suppose. However, they were Parliaments whose instability affected the instability of Governments. At most, the European Assembly will be a body of great influence but with limited powers. It will not be a government-making or government-destroying Assembly.
  I have never regarded the method of election to a European Assembly as anything like as important as the method used in elections to this House, and I do not accept the proposition that if one can be reconciled to proportional representation in the Assembly one is logically bound to accept it for this House.
  I hope that no hon. Member who, in general, supports what the Bill seeks to do will be deterred by the mere question of method. I should sooner see the Bill go through with the method that I do not prefer than see it not go through at all. I believe that this view is widely shared in the House.
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  As to some of the absurdities that could arise from a regional list system, any fool could devise such absurdities about any electoral system or any part of the machinery of government. One could easily write a parody of Socratic dialogue trying to explain the exact relationship between this House and another place or about the nature of a Hybrid Bill. If one wanted to make any part of something as complicated as the machinery of government appear ridiculous, one could easily do so, but, except for the purpose of humour, it would be entirely pointless exercise. We know that the first-past-the-post and the regional list systems can be made to work.
  My excuse for speaking on this subject again is that when ever I have spoken previously I have put a number of questions to the Government and they have never been answered. Therefore, I believe that I am justified in trying again. My first question is a new one and it arises from something that was mentioned earlier. Is it true that this is, as has been suggested, a one-off exercise?
  I know that it is the intention of the members of the Community to try to achieve a uniform system of election for all Europe. However, we have no certainty that that will be done in five years. As I read the Bill, if it passes through Parliament and we have elections in 1978 or shortly thereafter, and in the next five years Europe has not agreed on its own method, it seems that the Bill will still be in force and we shall have another set of elections under the Bill whatever method is provided for. Therefore, it is not necessarily a one-off matter. Perhaps the Government will be able to tell me by the end of the debate whether I am right about that.
  I think I understand what the Government have in mind about Clause 3(1) and 3(2). I say that with some trepidation. I shall tell the Government what I understand to be their position. I ask them to tell me whether I am right before the end of the debate.
  First, I understand the Government to say that we should not pay too much attention to what Clause 3(1) and 3(2) actually state because in Committee we shall debate Clause 3(1) and if it goes through without amendment we shall have elections under the regional list system.

  1283
  However, as the Government are anxious to play fair, they say that they are prepared to give assistance to any hon. Members who want to draft a valid amendment providing for the first-past-the-post system.
  If such an amendment were moved, the debate would, in effect, be on the merits of the two systems. If such an amendment were carried and the Bill went forward, we should have elections under the first-past-the-post system. That being so, I understand the Government to say that we need not bother any longer about Clause 3(2), which in those circumstances would presumably be deleted from the Bill. If that is what the Government mean, it is about as fair as they could play. It enables the House to make a fair decision between the two systems.
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: My right hon. Friend has expressed the position with great clarity. That is exactly the situation. I fully understand why some of my right hon. and hon. Friends did not understand the position the first time. When we were discussing this issue some weeks ago we tried to find a means by which this could be done. I know that subsection (2) looks a bit odd but, as I have said, my right hon. Friend has expressed the position succinctly. That is what it is all about. It is on subsection (1) that we expect to have the important debate on method.
  Mr. Stewart: Splendid. I am greatly obliged to my right hon. Friend.
  I must press the question of timing. Let us suppose that the Bill will not be passed into law this Session. Let us assume that by the end of this calendar year the Bill is law with the regional list system. Do the Government see the elections being held in May or June 1978? Alternatively, if the Bill becomes law by the end of the calendar year with the first-past-the-post system, will it still be possible to hold the elections in May or June 1978?
  I do not think I am asking for more than the Government can reasonably be expected to prophesy. Surely they should let us have that amount of information. Some of us may regard it as relevant to the decision that we shall make after discussion in Committee on Clause 3.
  Sir Anthony Royle: If the Secretary of State carries out the assurance that was
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  given to the Select Committee in evidence, that the Secretary of State should ask the Boundary Commission to start provisional work tomorrow, or at least the following day, immediately after the Second Reading has taken place, and if the House passed on Second Reading a Bill including direct elections by the first-past-the-post system, five months would have been saved.
  Mr. Stewart: If the House passed the Bill on Second Reading, I should think that could be done. I am not a constitutional lawyer, but I am pretty sure that there are precedents for administrative action to be properly taken after the House has passed the Second Reading of a Bill.
  Mr. Marten: Yes, there are precedents. There are thoroughly bad precedents, such as devolution, where the Government started to erect a building for the Assembly and then the Bill went down the drain. I remember that the Government set up the aircraft nationalisation organisation before the Bill received Royal Assent. I remember that they were criticised heavily in the House for doing so. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not fall for that one.
  Mr. Stewart: We always say that such a precedent is a bad one if the issue that is under discussion is something that we do not want to be done. When it is clear what the House will decide, I think that there is some sense in making reasonable preparations in advance.
  Mr. Powell: Surely the essence of the matter is that we are talking not about administrative action taken by anticipation but about action taken by a statutory body whose rights and duties are defined by the law.
  Mr. Stewart: The right hon. Gentleman may be right about that. It may be legally impossible. If that is so, that is that. However, the Government should consider the matter.
  I shall try not to get lost in my list of questions. If hon. Members continue to raise so many interesting sidelines it is possible that I shall get lost.
  Mr. Merlyn Rees: There is no statutory power for the Boundary Commission to proceed in the way that has been suggested. It would be possible for it to

  1285
  proceed informally but it would have no power to publish any of its findings until after Royal Assent. As for the Commission's expenditure in taking that course, I must make it clear that I have no power to spend money unless the House gives me power to do so. There will be time at a later stage to discuss speeding-up action. My advice to the House is that it should face the question of timing but should not ask the Home Secretary to proceed in a way that might in later years be a precedent that many people in the House would not like to see established.
  Mr. Geoffrey Rippon Mr. Geoffrey Rippon (Hexham) rose—
  Mr. Stewart: This is my speech.
  Mr. Rippon: I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon. Will he consider the possibility of a one-clause Bill by which Parliament could enable the Boundary Commission to get on with its work?
  Mr. Stewart: Unless it took longer to get the one-clause Bill than for the Commission to do its work. I want the work to be done as expeditiously as possible.
  Mr. David Steel: The issue is not resolved on Second Reading. Under Clause 2 the Boundary Commission could not possibly proceed until the House came to a conclusion on the distribution of seats. In other words, there is no stage short of the passing of the Bill at which the Commission could work with any sense.
  Mr. Stewart: If we cannot make this economy of time, so be it. It is a pity. I accept that it may not be possible. As for timing generally, it has been said that perhaps it is premature to consider it now. The Prime Minister suggested that it would not be the end of the world if it were to be 1979 rather than 1978. If I could be dead certain that it would be 1979 I should not wring my hands over the loss of 1978, but where is that certainty to be found? So often in political matters it is proved that if we do not do the thing when the time is right the opportunity slips for possibly a generation. I am afraid that that will happen when I hear members of the Government talking of the difficulty of timing.
  1286
  Are the Government determined— admittedly not in this Session but in the next—to get the Bill through? I know that the Prime Minister has said that he cannot command votes. He does not need to do so on this Bill. We all know that there is a substantial majority of votes in the House to get the Bill through. I think that I can say that without fear of contradiction.
  Mr. Budgen: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the crucial question is whether a guillotine can be achieved at a later stage? He may remember that my right hon. Friend the Member for Knutsford (Mr. Davies) told me that it was uncertain whether the Tories would support such a guillotine motion.
  Mr. Stewart: I am coming to that.
  Are the Government determined to get the Bill through? They are not in a position in which they can passionately desire the Bill and be frustrated because a majority in the House refuse it. The majority is there if the Government are determined to get it through.
  Are the Government as determined to get this Bill through as they were to get their rent, industrial relations and prices legislation through? We want to know the answer to that question first.
  Secondly, are they prepared to recommend to the House, with all their strength, whatever procedural measures are necessary to get the Bill through in the proper time? Incidentally, that is also a question for the Opposition. All the strictures about delay by the right hon. Member for Knutsford (Mr. Davies) will not mean anything if, when it comes to the point, the Opposition are not prepared to support a guillotine motion to carry it through. If, knowing the support that there is in the House for direct elections, the Government were to let this opportunity slide through their fingers, they would lose the good will, confidence and support of many Labour Members.
  5.22 p.m.
  Mr. Richard Wood: In all my 27 years as a Member of the House of Commons I cannot remember a more remarkable Bill being introduced by any Government, including any Government of which I had the honour to be a member.
  As the Home Secretary explained, we have a method proposed of electing

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  Members to the European Assembly, and, later in the Bill, we are offered an apparent opportunity to choose an entirely different method. Schedules 1 and 2 are devoted to a method that the Government plainly do not want the House to choose.
  Part of the reason for this unprecedented indecision is not hard to see. The Bill is introduced by a Government who have lost the confidence of many of their supporters and who have lost a great deal of confidence in themselves. The Government have been forced to allow a free vote, even to members of the Cabinet, on the central principle of the Bill, which, according to all that we have been told, is the touchstone of the honour of the Prime Minister.
  The Government are compelled by parliamentary arithmetic to propose a certain method of election, but, realising that the price of parliamentary survival may be even higher elsewhere, they are anxious to produce the illusion of choice by the reserve formula in the Bill. In my view, that is not only weak but, much worse, unfair. In present parliamentary circumstances, and in the likely circumstances of the next few months, the choice that we are apparently being offered is wholly illusory. Frankly, the tactics are such that even Machiavelli would have felt some sense of shame. As I have never visualised the Home Secretary as a disciple of Machiavelli, I wonder whether he understands what is involved in this apparent choice that is offered to us.
  I understand that after tomorrow night it is not the intention of Her Majesty's Government to make any further progress on the Bill in this Session.
  Mr. William Hamilton: The right hon. Gentleman is wrong.
  Mr. Wood: Am I wrong?
  Mr. William Hamilton: Yes.
  Mr. Wood: Anyhow, I understand that it is the intention of the Government not to make any significant progress in this Session. That may be a more apt description.
  Therefore, I suppose, we come to October. It is always possible that this Parliament will not reassemble in October. But if it does reassemble in October, we shall no doubt have protracted debate in this place and consider-
  1288
  able debate in another place. Therefore, it is difficult to believe that, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Knutsford (Mr. Davies) pointed out, the Bill will become an Act many weeks or even days before Christmas.
  The Home Secretary has patiently explained exactly how we are to interpret Clause 3(2). I understand that it does not mean exactly what it says. Once we have reached a decision on Clause 3(1), Clause 3(2) fades into oblivion. Therefore, we need not take seriously the need for the House to pass a resolution to substitute the first-past-the-post system for the regional list. In those circumstances, that will already have been done. However, it must surely be early next year before preparations could begin on first-past-the-post lines, if that system were chosen, for elections to take place a year from now.
  The Home Secretary has told us— indeed, it is in the Bill—that the Government adhere to option B of the White Paper in the circumstances of our preparing for first-past-the-post elections. The right hon. Gentleman repeated the estimate that it would be at least 18 weeks between the beginning and end of the Boundary Commission's operation. Therefore, in that eventuality the boundaries of single-member constituencies would not be agreed before May, and the first elections, if they are to take place in June or July, would indeed be the botched jobs that I foresaw when I spoke on the White Paper in April.
  Unless the Government are able and willing to instruct the Boundary Commission to begin drawing constituencies, which would be required under Schedule 2, or alternatively, if, as has been suggested in recent interchanges, they decide that that would be unconstitutional, impossible and contrary to statute, I maintain my view that the choice that we are offered is bogus. Therefore, later this year many of my right hon. and hon. Friends will face not a choice but an appalling dilemma.
  There is a large majority in the House of Commons as a whole—there is certainly a large majority on the Opposition side—who want the elections to take place next year. A considerable number of my right hon. and hon. Friends—no one knows exactly how many—disagree with

  1289
  my preference for the regional list and prefer first-past-the-post elections.
  How is the European Party, as my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, rightly, I believe, described the Conservatives in a recent speech, going to reconcile a principle that we support—the principle of elections next summer—with a method that many of my right hon. and hon. Friends view with profound suspicion? No one can tell. However, it is clear to me that the Prime Minister is taking great risks in expecting the whole of the Opposition loyally to fall in behind him if he is not prepared to take the steps that I have mentioned and in some way to transform the appearance of choice into a reality.
  Hon. Members know my views on the matter. I want the Bill to become law and the elections to be held as quickly as possible. For reasons which I expressed as clearly as I could in April, I believe that the method proposed in the first three clauses will give fairer representation than the method contained in the first two schedules. But my anxiety about the Bill's future is immeasurably increased by the Government's failure to present us with a real choice and by the frustrations which will be caused by the attitude of "take it or leave it" that they seem to be adopting.
  Men and women who are offered a free choice often choose differently from those who feel, with some reason, that they are being bullied. Convinced as I am about the real dangers of a first-past-the-post system for European elections, I would profoundly like my right hon. and hon. Friends to be free fairly to weigh the arguments before choosing and not be be driven to destroy the whole concept because they are not free to choose.
  For the arguments are important. I do not think that they all end up at the destination to which they first seem to point. For example, many who fear that proportional representation for European elections will lead inexorably to a similar system for Westminster may find that the opposite is true. The disillusion which many feel for our present system here would be powerfully fuelled by some of the absurd results it would secure in the European elections.
  I have some doubts about the precise form of the regional list system. We have
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  had a certain amount of discussion in detail this afternoon. At first sight, it seems more appealing to be asked to vote for a man or a woman than for a party, even if the votes cast for an individual will ultimately benefit the party to which he or she belongs. The danger is that in an overwhelmingly Conservative or Socialist region—and all the regions, at least in England, would at present be overwhelmingly Conservative—the main struggle would not be between the parties, but between candidates of the same party, whose main concern would be to do better than the other candidates most likely to be elected. I do not think that that is unnatural or reprehensible, but it would be undesirable and would be encouraged by the proposed system.
  It is also suggested that it will be possible for one of the candidates to come top of the poll and yet not be elected, because the rest of his party has not done sufficiently well. The Home Secretary was not definite about that aspect. I myself understand that such a result is not only politically unlikely but mathematically impossible. I shall examine the matter and take great pleasure in explaining it at a later stage.
  Mr. John Page: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. If, in Committee, we vote out Clause 3(1), does it mean that there is any chance of voting for Part II of the Bill at all? Alternatively, is the decision made whether we have one system or the other when we first reach Clause 3(1)?
  Mr. Wood: My hon. Friend should put that query to the Government. It is their problem, not mine. I understand that if we destroy Clause 3(1) we must have some system, and therefore we inevitably are pushed into the first-past-the-post system. Perhaps the Minister can explain that.
  Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: As I read the Bill, we could destroy Clause 3(1) but we should still be left with Clause 4, other parts of Part 2 and Schedules 3, 4 and 5. So we would still have a regional list system and a first-past-the-post system This is what is so bizarre about the Government's proposals.
  Mr. Wood: I have never denied that the proposals are bizarre. Clearly we must have a system for the elections. I understand that if we reject Clause 3(1)

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  we shall move on to the alternative system provided later in the Bill.
  There are many other problems, but there will be a lot of time to examine them in detail. For the moment, we are looking at the principle of the Bill and the likelihood of its being accepted.
  The right hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. Stewart) echoed the view which I expressed during the debate on the White Paper, when I said that it would be
  "far preferable to hold the elections next year under what I believe to be a defective system than to frustrate them entirely by insisting on a better one."—[Official Report, 20th April 1977; Vol. 930, c. 279.]
  That means that if we do not get the proposal in Clauses 1 to 3 of the Bill, it would be better if we had the other system so long as we have the elections on time.
  I believed that a number of hon. Members, although not the right hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe), shared that sentiment. I believe that they thought the elections more important than the system, even though the system that many preferred is the exact opposite to that which I preferred. But those were the days when we believed, perhaps naively, that we would be offered a free choice between the available systems.
  For this reason, I beg the Government to look again at the matter and to provide us with the real free choice which most of us expected. That would enable us all freely to decide which system we prefer, and when we have made our collective decision, to make the final preparations for the elections on whatever basis the majority choose.
  5.38 p.m.
  Mr. Nigel Spearing: The right hon. Member for Bridlington (Mr. Wood) has properly raised many questions from the point of view of those who support the Bill. I am the first speaker in the debate who does not support the Bill, and I shall take a different line.
  First, I should like the Minister to answer a question that has not been asked, although assumptions have been made. Will there be a Second Reading of the Bill in the next Session? I assume that it will not pass in this Session. It might be possible for the Government to move a motion for a carry-over. I do
  1292
  not think that many hon. Members would support that. It has not been mentioned, but the question should be asked. We need a reply from the Minister, and if he says that he intends to introduce a carry-over motion we must know the attitude of the Opposition to that.
  My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said that this was a constitutional Bill of major significance. So far, that aspect has not been given great attention by the House, at least in principle. One part of this constitutional change has escaped attention not only in this debate but in almost every other debate. The issue is that even with a first-past-the-post system, the party, as distinct from the person, is put in a higher position. That is clearly true in the case of a regional list, where a person is voting for an individual within a party, but it is also true of the first-past-the-post system, because the European Assembly, as we have been told by colleagues there, is organised almost entirely on a party basis in a way in which this House is not.
  No one denies the right of anyone to cross the Floor. It has been done. It might be undesirable, but it can happen. A person is first and foremost a Member of Parliament representing all in his constituency, of whatever party or view. That is something that I think Liberal Members tend to forget.
  Mr. Jeremy Thorpe: Certainly not.
  Mr. Spearing: I am glad to hear that. That is a principle of this House. However, even with the first-past-the-post system, representation in the Assembly is on a basis of party. I understand that it is even more rigid there—although relatively, it is not rigid at all here. I understand that party institutions there get financial aid for party meetings and all sorts of party matters. That is not a feature of this House in quite the same way. I note that my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton) agrees about that. Therefore, if we agree to the Bill, even with the first-past-the-post system, we are agreeing to something which, as I understand it, is quite foreign to British democracy.
  It is to the question of democracy that I now turn. My right hon. Friend the

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  Home Secretary says that the mandate for the Bill comes, first, from an obligation of Government. Governments can say what they like and enter into agreements with other Governments, but this House has the right to say "No". Therefore, it is purely a question whether this House agrees with the Government in their intention of 2nd December last year. Hon. Members should note that it was "the decision", so called, at that time. There was no reference to the Treaty of Rome, because it was quite clear in the last debate on this matter that the proposal in the Bill is in pursuance not of the treaty but of something less, because the treaty calls for a proposal for elections under a common system, and that is not what is being done.
  The Home Secretary also mentioned the referendum. I have a distinct impression that at the time of the referendum many people voted "Yes", to remain in the EEC and not to come out, because they wanted to preserve the status quo. They thought "Well, we are in. We have not given it a fair run. Let us see how it works out. It would be foolhardy" —they accepted the arguments put forward by some hon. Members—" to come out." However, I submit that they did not vote for direct elections. That is absolutely clear, because quite clearly, although the matter may have been discussed at various meetings and raised in various ways, it was not raised in the Government's document which they sent to every household in the land, on public money. It was the Government's obligation to explain what the country would be letting itself in for. "Britain's New Deal in Europe" had two pages on the subject of "Will Parliament lose its power?" There was not a word on direct elections at all.
  Mr. Hugh Dykes: Would not the hon. Gentleman concede, though, that the reverse position is the case, and that when the subject is raised now, as it was during the referendum campaign, the uneasiness of the public when they are apprised of this subject —and that is an important "when"— is that the European Parliament should remain undemocratic in future? That is their principal anxiety.
  Mr. Spearing: I am coming to the question of democracy, and I shall reply to that point. However, I do not think that the hon. Gentleman can claim that the Government made clear that, in their view, a "Yes" vote meant an obligation to direct elections. If they felt that, they should have said it. If they now claim that it was there, I do not think that they would do very well under the Trade Descriptions Act or anything like that when it comes to the question of doorstep salesmen. That is the comparison that I would make in relation to that document.
  Mr. Whitehead: Before this tired old argument goes any further, may I ask my hon. Friend whether he agrees that the "No" leaflet, which was also distributed to every household, warned at great length about the diabolical evils of direct elections to the European Parliament and was rejected by a vote of more than two to one?
  Mr. Spearing: I would not use the language that my hon. Friend has chosen. I am talking about the Government. This is a Government Bill. It was up to the Government to make clear what the obligations were. All that I am saying is that whatever hon. Members may say, the Government cannot claim that this is an obligation or a mandate resulting either from the Treaty of Rome or from the referendum.
  I come to the question of the powers of the Assembly. This was referred to by my right hon. Friend the Member for Fulham (Mr. Stewart). Perhaps he knows that the Tindemans Report made it quite clear that some people see the development of direct elections to the European Assembly as leading to European union. Tindemans says that the Parliament will have a new authority when it is elected directly. He goes on to say,
  "A consequence of the Parliament's new authority will be an increase in its powers, which will take place gradually in the course of the progressive development of the European Union notably through a growing exercise of the legislative function. It goes without saying that the Parliament should assume an important responsibility in the construction of the Union."—capital "U."
  It may be said—as hon. Members have said—that the Assembly cannot have more powers than it has now unless there

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  is a unanimous decision of all the countries in the Community. That is precisely what was said about direct elections. We go from stage to stage and say "It is all right. You do not have to agree. You will have another chance. You will have to agree to it when we come to it." When we reach that stage we are told that we are naughty boys if we do not go along with it and that we shall be disadvantaged in the Community. We are told that all along there was an obligation and that this was thoroughly understood.
  That is what has happened previously, and in respect of the powers of the European Assembly it could happen again.
  On the question of democracy—and coming to the point raised by the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes)— if the European Assembly had clearly defined responsibilities, if the EEC were responsible for clearly defined areas of national or international policy, there might be a stronger case—I do not happen to agree with it—for the side that agrees with direct elections. However, we know from the 80-odd debates in this Chamber that the competence of the EEC, or claimed competence, goes into every detail of domestic, social and political life of this nation.
  I asked a Question only yesterday on a point that a constituent had put to me, namely why the Government would not agree to have fluted bottles made mandatory to indicate that they contained poisons? The reply was "You cannot do that because the EEC regulation says that you cannot do it." At first sight that appears a matter of detail, but it goes to the very centre of the medicine chest of every house in the country. From that sort of issue to the subject of lorries and questions of transport policy and major questions on matters such as tariffs, food costs and agricultural policy, and almost every issue one cares to name, almost the whole of British political and social life is within the competence of the European Assembly.
  What will happen to Opposition Members who agree with this proposal? What will happen to Conservative Members of Parliament in their constituencies when pressure groups and people who are concerned with these issues, in trade associa-
  1296
  tions or bands of retailers and citizens, come to them about matters that are concerned with both this House and the European Assembly, as more and more issues will be? If they are hard pressed, they will send the person or the group off to the European Assembly Member. They may say "No, I shall try to do something about that when there is a debate in the House", but inevitably, as we know from what happens already, people go to councillors and come to us, and most pressure groups ought to go to both. There will be a clash, and difficulties between the two. There will be an overlap, and competition.
  Inevitably—and this is the democratic point—there will be a clash of interest between this House and the Assembly—a clash of interests between elected Members of the Assembly and elected Members of this House. There will not be any clear definition as to whose responsibility a certain matter is. There will be a tennis match, passing the ball one to the other. Whatever happens, the stature and responsibility of the Member of this House will be diminished merely by the fact of an alternative route.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: Since the hon. Gentleman is talking about democracy and since all these European regulations touch every citizen of this country, why is it more democratic for the European Parliament, which is supposed to deal with these matters, not to be elected? Surely it follows as a matter of logic that it is more democratic if the members of the Parliament are elected.
  Mr. Spearing: That is a fair question, and that is the point that I am coming to next. I have just pointed out the inevitable clash which will occur and which does not occur at the moment. Those who are concerned with the democracy of the EEC must be concerned with the way in which we in this House deal or fail to deal with these matters and make sure that our procedures of mandating our Ministers or telling them what they should or should not do in the Council are improved.
  Those hon. Members who say that we must have democracy in the Community are therefore avoiding the fact that we have it here first through elected Members of this House, and that we can

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  improve it by improving our procedures of scrutiny and debate and the accountability of members of the Council of Ministers to this House. If they were really concerned, they would be concerned with that first. If they are making a great pother about democracy in the Community, they must realise that the only way to make the Executive more accountable to the European Assembly will be to give the latter the powers referred to by my right hon. Friend—not necessarily the power to kick the Executive out but the power that is more common in a federal or unitary State. That is the danger of the slippery slope. That sort of democracy to be effective, has to be in a State or an embryonic State, with power. That is what will happen, and the power of this House will be diminished thereby.
  My last point has not been raised in any of these debates. It concerns the effect of so-called direct elections on the historic parties in this House. The Conservative Party started as a party in this House and its structure and power is related to gaining power in this House and to governing this country. Its aim is power and its fuel is patronage, overt or covert. The structure is historic; it may not be open, but it is what works. I will not say that from the point of view of Conservative Members that may be appropriate for their party.
  What will happen when there are directly-elected European Members? What strains and stresses will be felt in the Tory Party when it comes to nominating these people and deciding the part that they will play in the Tory Party? People will turn to them because it will be thought in Europe that they have the information that is necessary, and pressure will be put on them by trade associations, companies, people with financial interests and those who are very much concerned with harmonisa-tion and authorisation and all the other matters connected with the EEC.
  The strains and stresses set up may be unforeseen by direct elections and may have an effect on the Conservative Party which its members do not now foresee. In this country we have undergone many reorganisations recently — local government, water, hospitals and the Health Service. In almost every case there have
  1298
  been unexpected side-effects of what might have appeared to be logical and coherent proposals. In the end, it is one of the faults of our country, perhaps, that it is the unexpected side-effects which have most effect and it is the side-effects which are not always foreseen. These things must be dealt with as practical issues.
  The Conservative Party may be damaging itself seriously if that happens. People may wonder why I, as a Socialist, should be concerned with the welfare of the Tory Party. My concern is that this House and British democracy have a strong and virile—and permanent— Opposition. I am also concerned that there should be confidence in the powers of this House and our historic democratic procedures. We cannot say that that is overwhelming at the moment. There is a great deal of criticism of what happens, even without direct elections.
  The Labour Party, unlike the Conservative and Liberal Parties, was set up outside this House to gain power so that it could put its programme into effect. Perhaps the effect of direct elections for the EEC will be as great on the Labour Party. The appeal of my party always was: "Do not do things unconstitutionally. Get into the House, get a majority and change the law ". That is what this party has historically done and it was able to deliver the goods when the majority was gained in 1945 and again in 1966.
  If we have direct elections, as already happens in the EEC, even with an overwhelming majority in this House, we shall not be able to change policies which we could have changed before we entered. Difficulties, although not perhaps as great as in the Conservative Party, will certainly be felt in my party. They have been felt already. Even in the run-up to direct elections there are tensions and differences in both parties which otherwise would not exist.
  Why is this important to democracy as a whole? Conservative Members have already accepted in effect the principle of State cash for parties in Europe and they may have to accept Houghton too. If that happens, the British electorate will be confused about whom they should go to for advice and assistance and their confidence in British democracy will be further eroded. These things are likely

  1299
  with any form of European elections— whether first past the post or PR. All these factors will diminish the power of this House and therefore the confidence that people will put in it and will therefore strike a blow at the roots of parliamentary democracy, which has been the great quality of this House and the pride of the United Kingdom through the years.
  5.57 p.m.
  Mr. Neil Marten: I shall follow much the same theme as the hon. Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing). I shall not deal with the nuts and bolts of the Bill, which we shall have weeks and weeks and weeks to consider after the recess. I cannot see the carry-over motion being supported by the Opposition, certainly for a Public Bill.
  I want to speak against the whole idea of having direct elections.
  Mr. Dykes: What a surprise.
  Mr. Marten: It is a surprise, I know, to some people.
  My main objection, as most people know, is that this proposal is one step down the road to a federal Europe. That is what it is about and those who vote for the Bill will show that that is what they are really after. I shall, therefore, speak against the Bill in rather broad terms.
  Many of those who share my view are told by our headmaster, Mr. Roy Jenkins—having "denationalised" himself and become a Eurocrat he still comes over here and lectures us—that we are fighting the referendum over again.
  I would rather put it in this way. One is in a bus with 100 other people which comes to a Y junction. Some say that the bus should go left and others that is should go right. In the course of the debate, some say that down the left-hand road they will pass a church and a cemetery on one side and a farm on the other. Others describe what will be seen if the other fork is taken. There is then a vote, and 60 passengers vote for the left fork and 40 vote to fork right. So we all go along in the bus and, as time passes, it dawns on people that somehow or another they are not passing that church. If that is so, is it not up to me and the likes of me to say "The decision to fork to the left, which was taken
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  by the majority in the bus, is not turning out to be right. The church is not there as we were told it would be. Where is the cemetery? That is not there either. We are told that there would be a farm, but there is also no farm in sight." Then there is another discussion and we get to the position that we are in today.
  That is why I suggest that if we had another referendum not, the result would be the reverse of the last one. When the majority on the bus have decided that they have taken the wrong road after all, one has two options. One can turn the bus back to the junction and go off on the right road. The other is to go farther along the left fork where there is a turning on the right which will take one to the right road.
  I am not anti-European. I am anti the Treaty of Rome. We anti-Marketeers are pointing out that the promised church, cemetery and farm are not there, and that perhaps we are going along the wrong road after all, and that we should, therefore, turn on to the right road. I say that in order not to be accused by the headmaster again.
  Mr. John Page: Before my hon. Friend gets off the bus, we would be interested to know whether he is happy to remain on the European bus. Does he feel that he is on the bus and wants to alter the route, or does he want to get out and walk?
  Mr. Marten: I will come to that very point. That is how I would like to end my speech.
  The trouble is that there is general disillusionment because the church, the cemetery and the farm have not turned up. Let us look at the national opinion polls on the question. In February, in a national poll, 35 people out of 100 thought that the Common Market was a good thing, but 41 thought it a bad thing. A poll in April conducted by the Community produced the same sort of figures. A poll conducted by Granada Television in the North-West showed that 53 per cent. in that area wanted to withdraw from the Common Market and only 44 per cent. wanted to stay in. I am not saying that these are absolute figures, but they undoubtedly show a trend the reverse of the referendum result. It is interesting to note from the

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  February opinion poll that, at the time of the referendum, only one person in 10 knew that direct elections were involved. So the Government have not much excuse on that point.
  There is general disillusionment, and one must ask why it has happened. My answer is that in 1972, and again during the referendum campaign, the pro-Market propaganda machine exaggerated things to such an extent that, as they have not come to pass, great disillusionment has set in. That is the backlash against the pro-Marketeers and their propaganda. Of course, the British Press was all behind the Common Market. It "bought" all the propaganda churned out from Brussels and churned it out again. As a result, it will be extremely difficult for the pro-Marketeers to recover their position with further propaganda through the British Press, whose newspapers are in any case merely the agents of the EEC. The people's backlash is justifiable.
  I want to say something to my Conservative colleagues who have been talking recently about the anti-Market so-called campaign, and are trying to imply that those who are against the Common Market or who want to take, as it were, my right turn, or who want to turn the bus round and go back to the junction, are Left-wing Tribunites or National Front. I wish that they would stop it. They should look at the opinion polls.
  Perhaps they would care to take the temperature of the Conservative Party. In February, 32 per cent. of its membership was against Britain's membership of the Common Market. For Conservatives to say that everyone of them who is against the Common Market is a member of the National Front, or whatever, is an appalling slur on the political feelings of people in their own party. I wish that they would stop that sort of propaganda. It worked in the referendum, but we shall see that it does not work again.
  I understand why they are doing it. They themselves are supping with the devil of Euro-Communists, and therefore, in order to protect themselves from that accusation, they have to make this other accusation. I say that light-heartedly, but, nevertheless, they have to find some justification. I wish that they would stop this smearing of fellow Conservatives. It does not do them or the Conservative Party
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  any good. As the hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Mr. Gould) said on television, nearly all those who are responsible for the anti-Market organisation outside the House are solid Conservatives.
  It has been said that the Conservative Party is committed to direct elections. I believe that it is so committed under Article 183 of the Treaty of Rome. The Conservatives who voted for the thing are committed to some introduction of direct elections on a uniform procedure, but the Conservative Party is not committed to this Bill, which is introduced under the decision taken on 20th September 1976 and signed by my late constituent, Anthony Crosland, on behalf of the Labour Government. It did not commit the Conservative Party at all. That decision is not in the Treaty of Rome, but something quite different. So, the Conservative Party is not committed to this Bill. I hope that the argument that it is will not be used.
  In any case, how can a party and Parliament be committed to something that we can veto? In the referendum, pamphlets were issued on the use of the veto. One of the two examples that we were given was that we could veto a Bill for direct elections when it came. How can one be committed to something that one can overturn? It is Euro-gobblede-gook. It has become a new form of thinking—the gobbledegook of Euro-gook.
  My main objection is that the Bill is a step in the direction of a federal Europe. I do not mind the sniggers from my hon. Friends around me when I say that: I have got used to them. I shall advance the argument by quoting their friends. Here is the editor of Common Market News writing in the Daily Telegraph:
  "Direct elections to the European Assembly in 1978 are a step in the federal direction."
  I have always believed that the Community will only work if it becomes a federal State. That is borne out by Mr. Tindemans, who knows much more about it than my hon. Friends do. He wrote in his report on European union:
  "Europe will only fulfil its destiny if it espouses federalism."
  That man probably knows more about the subject than most people. He spent a whole year on it. He was commissioned to do so, and that is what he said.

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  Then we come to the Right-wing, Centre or Christian Democratic parties in Europe, which, regrettably, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said in Rome that we must try to get closer to. So the Christian Democratic and Right-wing parties have formed themselves into a "People's Party". Article 3 of this grouping of parties, which the Conservative Party would presumably join, says:
  "It shall participate in, and support the process of, European integration and co-operate in the transformation of Europe into a European Union with a view to achieving a Federal Union "."
  If we do not join that lot there is really no one else to join. I cannot think that was what my right hon. Friend was talking about.
  Mr. Spearing: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that the Conservative Party is now espousing federalism as a policy or that it has made some qualification in that regard?
  Mr. Marten: I am probably the last person on this earth to speak for the Conservative Party on this issue, but that is my suspicion.
  My other objection is that the European Assembly—I am glad that it is officially called an "Assembly" and no longer that bogus word "Parliament"— is going to get legislative powers. This is always brushed aside, but again I must quote from people who are far better informed than my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes) and who have more experience than he has. They do not pay much attention to what I say. However, we have M. Ortoli in his 1975 annual report saying:
  "If the elected Parliament is to be true to its calling, it must be given legislative power."
  That is precisely what I fear.
  Again, in the December 1974 Summit communique, the bottom of paragraph 12 states:
  "The competence of the European Assembly will be extended, in particular by granting it certain powers in the Communities' legislative process."
  Then we get the European Movement, of which so many of my hon. Friends are members and supporters, saying:
  "The Parliament should also exercise joint responsibility with the Council for enacting Community legislation."
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  All that points to this Assembly being a legislative Assembly.
  I put this point to Labour Members. If the directly elected Assembly has a Right-wing, or Centre Right-wing majority—which my hon. Friends assure me it will have—which starts passing Centre Right-wing legislation, and if the British people, for some reason which I shall not question at the moment, vote for a Socialist Government to do Socialist things and pass Socialist laws, that Government will find itself blocked by what that Right-wing European Assembly has legislated. That is a danger.
  One can easily turn the argument around because it may be just as likely. If the European Assembly has a Socialist plus a Euro-Communist majority which passes Left-wing Euro-Communist legislation, then a Conservative Government will find that it cannot implement Conservative policies because Euro-Communists and Left-wing senior legislators, as a party, will have blocked what they are trying to do. That is my fundamental objection to this whole proposition.
  I would quote what the hon. Member for Warley, East (Mr. Faulds) said when talking about direct elections. The hon. Gentleman said that
  "we are committed, not only by our party manifesto and the Queen's Speech but also by the outcome of the referendum and by international treaty, to the introduction of direct elections to Europe, where we could play a part—and this is what some of our colleagues seem to have forgotten—in the furtherance of the introduction of international Socialism".
  The Prime Minister replied:
  "I broadly agree. That is why a Bill will be introduced next week."—[Official Report, 16th June 1977; Vol. 933, c. 553.]
  My hon. Friends have been warned. I am a Conservative and I do not want international Socialism united in Europe, just as I am sure that Labour Members do not want international Right-wing-ism. Therefore, let us have no legislation over there at all.
  There will be an enormous conflict between the Assembly, if it is directly-elected, and this Parliament. Who better to quote than George, Lord Thomson, who was a Commissioner and who has now retired and can draw three years' redundancy pay of £20,000 a year. That is an extraordinary fact which I have

  1305
  picked up. However, I leave that aside. Writing in a magazine called "Facts", which usually comes into this debate. Lord Thomson said:
  "After direct elections it"—
  that is, the Assembly—
  "will be converted into a rival of national Parliaments, fighting for a fairer share of Parliamentary power."
  That must be brought home to hon. Members of this House before they vote for this Bill. If the Assembly is to have more power let us ask what those powers will be before we vote. If it is not to have more powers why are we spending £10 million in having direct elections at all, since the members of that Assembly will be political eunuchs or the female equivalent? I do not know what that is.
  The Bill is undoubtedly a step towards federalism. People argue that it will make the Assembly more democratic if its Members are directly elected. Goodness me, the Russian Parliament is directly elected but one cannot say that that has made that Parliament any more democratic. What matters is what powers, if any, the Assembly is to have. Direct elections have nothing at all to do with it. If one wants to make the thing more democratic the place where we parliamentarians ought to insist on bringing democracy into the Community is at the Government Dispatch Box. Before a Minister goes to Luxembourg we should tell him how far he can go. If he needs to go further than that all he has to say is "I am not allowed to go further than that. I shall have to go back and check whether the House of Commons agrees." That will delay things, but it will give Ministers another trip to Brussels to say whether the House of Commons has agreed. That is where we can control, and ensure that democracy operates.
  I shall not go into the question of pay. That is not an unimportant point but it is something that we shall discuss in Committee. I think that what is being talked about in the way of pay for these members is outrageous. I shall be seeking to move an amendment in Committee whereby any pay which directly elected Members draw over and above the pay of Members of this House of Commons should be forfeited into the Consolidated
  1306
  Fund for the benefit of this country which they go to represent.
  The whole proposition is an absurdity. It is one of those Common Market dreams dreamt up by old men after the war and which is now really a bit of a nonsense. I am very sad that my party is operating a three-line Whip on this matter. How much nicer it would have been if there had been a voluntary vote for Conservative Members. I shall not be obeying that three-line Whip, but I do not think that my hon. Friends are worried about that.
  I believe that we are wrong to pick out in isolation the question of direct elections to the European Assembly. What we are talking about is the sovereignty of our Parliament in one way or another. What we should do is look at devolution to Scotland and Wales, devolution to Europe and the reform of the House of Commons and the House of Lords. They are all one and the same theme. We are doing it piecemeal. We should stand back and find out where this Parliament stands in relation to these other outside organisations.
  While we are doing that, I hope that the Government and the Opposition will begin to think about where the European Community is going. At the moment it is drifting, and it is not working. We have got to realise that if it goes on like this—and includes Spain, Portugal, Greece and possibly Turkey— there will be no improvement in the Community. We must ask ourselves how it will end.
  I am a strong European. I want co-operation and unity in Europe, but I do not want political union or a federal Europe. That is why I shall fight this Bill right the way through to next February or March.
  6.20 p.m.
  Mr. Bryan Gould: We on this side of the House at least will have a free vote at the end of the debate. It will be a free vote, not just in the sense that we are not being "whipped" but because the arguments pressed earlier to the effect that the issue had been decided by virtue of our commitment to the Treaty of Rome and by the referendum have been abandoned. As befits an issue of major constitutional significance

  1307
  we are free to decide it according to our own minds and consciences.
  Attitudes will be affected by the views that we hold on Common Market membership. However, there will be many who—rightly, in my view—assess the two issues independently of each other. I wish to approach this matter from the hypothetical viewpoint of one who is neutral on the question of membership but who recognises that we are members for the time being and should ensure the greatest element of democratic control of EEC affairs. [HON. MEMBERS: "Pull the other leg."] It seems that there are some hon. Members who find it impossible to understand the meaning of the word "hypothetical". I accept that it is desirable to introduce a democratising element into Community affairs. From that point of view the most obvious, direct and effective way of introducing that element is to strengthen the democratic control that we exercise in this House.
  We must recognise that all major decisions in the EEC are taken by the Council of Ministers, and we must ensure that Ministers are made properly accountable to this House. That would be the course of action true to our own parliamentary institutions and in accordance with current constitutional practice in the EEC. It would require no amendment to the Treaty of Rome and would be by far the most effective method of democratic control available.
  By contrast, to try to introduce a democratic element by electing a European Assembly would be to do something which does not arise naturally or directly from the fact of membership. It is a major new step, a decisive move towards a new and different concept of Europe in which the whole constitutional practices of the EEC would have to be changed. It would require substantial amendment to the Treaty of Rome and even more substantial informal changes in the practice of the Community. In the name of legitimacy and orthodoxy, we are being urged to accept this.
  The fundamental nature of the change is being played down by Ministers and its innovatory nature is being minimised. We are told that the power to control and arrest these developments will remain with us and that we will not be
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  ceding in perpetuity political power to a new form of federal government. Many people who are neutral will decide their attitude to the Euroelections according to whether they accept those assurances. I want to offer some reasons why those assurances should be looked at with great scepticism.
  We have been told all this before in Common Market affairs. We were told by a Conservative Government under the former leadership that their commitment was to negotiate, nothing more and nothing less. We were told by a Labour Government that if we voted for membership there would be no irreversible commitment on membership or on direct elections. Now we are told that we can vote for direct elections but that that will imply no commitment to federalism.
  This is all part of the process of asking us to jump through one hoop at a time so that we will never look up and see where the course is leading us. The language of commitment is misleading. It is not the case that by taking one step we commit ourselves to the next. It is rather that by taking one step we weaken our own will and ability to resist the pressure on us to take the next step. It is hard to know whether Ministers who are edging us along step by step are conspirators or are simply acting as Judas goats.
  Another reason for scepticism is that these assurances are flatly contradicted by many of the most powerful forces in the EEC who make no secret of their intention to use Euro elections to achieve a federal Europe. We can hardly say that we have not been warned. Our record of success in resisting pressure from the EEC on such issues does not inspire much confidence.
  Surely the whole logic of the arguments supports those who deny ministerial assurances and argue overtly for a federalist Europe. Otherwise, why should we bother with all this paraphernalia of elections if it is not intended to transform the situation? There is nothing in the present role or function of the Assembly that requires that there should be elections. Elections are necessary only if they are seen as a contribution towards, and a concomitant of, an extension of the role and importance of the Assembly in order to produce a new level of federal government.

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  It is not so much that, having been elected, the Assembly will demand additional powers, though no doubt it will do so. It is rather the simple fact that elections will inevitably make more effective the Assembly's existing powers, which include, after all, the power to dismiss the Executive and to control Supply—quite enough to be going on with.
  We of all people, with our instinctive understanding of political realities, can outstrip those who fail to understand that. It is right to claim democratic legitimacy, and legitimacy of a special kind, on the basis that the Assembly was elected specifically to do this job. That right will transform the sitaution, and we denude ourselves if we believe that this will not be done at our expense. [Interruption.] I am delighted that some of my hon. Friends agree with me and accept that the whole purpose of direct elections is to bring about a federal Europe.
  We have this on the authority of no less a person than Lord Thomson of Monifieth. Writing this month in Lloyds Bank Review, he says:
  "From the moment of direct elections, the European MPs, with rare exceptions, will cease to be colleagues. They will become rivals whose powers can be increased only by those of national Parliaments diminishing."
  We can expect no clearer warning than that.
  It is not so much the reality but the appearance of power which should be our concern. Whether or not an elected Assembly would actually wield effective power along democratic lines—which is doubtful—it is the fact that there are so many institutions with a vested interest in pretending that they do which poses the real threat. Naturally, the Assembly itself will wish to give the impression that it is doing an effective and important job. The Commission will gladly support this claim, at least for its pretension if not for actuality, as a means of reducing the power of the Council of Ministers and, through them, of national Parliaments. It is not an accident that the Commission is a keen supporter of direct elections. It sees them as a largely valueless but necessary precondition of a fundamental shift of power from the Council to itself.
  1310
  Even Ministers from time to time will be attempting to ascribe to the Assembly powers that it does not have in order to deflect the attention of national Parliaments. We shall have to get used to hearing Ministers say that certain matters are no concern of ours because they are being debated in the European Assembly which was elected for that purpose.
  Mr. Marten: Perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to quote a remark by a Conservative delegate to the European Assembly, who said on 20th April:
  "It makes one almost ashamed to be British. We in this House are Europeans, not nationalists."
  That is the sort of thing that we are going to hear.
  Mr. Gould: The hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) is right. I am afraid that we hear exactly the same thing from hon. Members on this side of the House.
  Mr. Budgen: Not only will the buck be passed from this place to Europe; there may also be attempts to ascribe to Europe powers of economic revival that plainly cannot be exercised by this House or by any other body. In particular, hon. Members may remember the speech of the then Foreign Secretary, the present Prime Minister, who said on 29th March 1976 that he hoped that the Community might perhaps solve the whole problem of unemployment in this country.
  Mr. Gould: We still hear such unwarrantable optimism in many quarters. In the end, ministerial assurances on the question of whether direct elections will mean federalism founder on the simple fact that an elected Assembly will either be doing something which is actually or potentially within the competence of national Parliaments, in which case it will be superfluous, or will be doing something which is allegedly beyond the competence of national Parliaments, in which case it will be federalist. Indeed, it is possible that we shall have both and that the elected Assembly will be superfluous because the job could be better done by national Parliaments but be federalist by default because it will simply be used as a means of moving out of the area of control and power in national Parliaments. If that is the case, we shall end up with the federalism but without the democracy.

  1311
  My conclusion is that those who want a federal Europe will vote for this measure. Those who, whether in favour of Common Market membership or not, do not accept that the Common Market should develop along federalist lines should oppose it. That is the view which will be taken by all those who wish to remain true to our parliamentary traditions and who are not prepared to say, for the first time in the history of this institution, that they are unwilling or unable to discharge their responsibilities to the British people.
  6.32 p.m.
  Mr. Hugh Dykes: I hope that the hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Mr. Gould) will not mind my saying that there was a slight touch of moral blackmail when he said that those who wish to support the Bill will be going down a dangerous federal path. I do not believe that that is the case. Indeed, I would not support the Bill or membership of the Common Market and the essential democratisation of the European Parliament flowing from direct elections if I believed that to be the fact.
  I believe that there is a range of opinion about future political perspectives and the structure of the Community which embraces all kinds of ultra-federalist views but which will also take in those with nationalist views who are in favour of direct elections. There is a strong current of nationalist opinion in many States, including this country, which is strongly in favour of direct elections and which sees a logical interface and a combination of the greater strengths of national Parliaments in the surveillance of European Community legislation and the direct election of Members to a European Parliament. I use that title advisedly rather than the word "Assembly".
  Mr. Marten: Why?
  Mr. Dykes: Because I believe that relationships between the European Parliament and national Parliaments can be constructive in future in making a positive contribution to a better Europe. It could lead to a better system of scrutiny of European legislation. I believe that, through the party political affiliations and transcending party lines, directly-elected Members of the European Parliament can fulfil a useful function.
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  I believe that the Bill is long overdue. I still have detailed objections to the Bill, which no doubt will cause the Government a little anxiety at later stages—as and when—indeed, if and when—the Bill is dealt with in Committee. But certainly this vote on the principle of the matter on Second Reading is disgracefully overdue. The Government had no excuse for delaying the matter for so long. I regard as absurd all the Byzantine chatter about complicated situations and the need for members of the Tribune Group and certain members of the Cabinet to have long enough to digest these difficult political concepts.
  If only the Prime Minister, the Home Secretary and the Foreign Secretary had collectively within the Cabinet led their colleagues and maintained an active struggle within that body, if only they had been a little harsher on their colleagues who, as far as we can judge from newspaper reports, have been hostile to this legislation—certainly, a strong stand by those Cabinet Ministers is long overdue—this Bill, or, preferably, a better Bill, could have come before the House much earlier this year. A system chosen to give a good majority on the basis of a universal free vote on all sides of the House involving a first-past-the-post arrangement leading to single-Member constituencies could have made a rational and uncontroversial contribution in respect of clusters of parliamentary constituencies.
  As a result of the inexcusable delay, we have the situation in which Clause 3(1) will be amended in certain circumstances if the proposal for a regional list is defeated. It would then be too late to do a great deal about the situation in relation to the first-past-the-post arrangement, which I prefer, and the European constituencies will become so controversial that they will not carry the moral or political support of hon. Members, or, indeed, of those outside the House.
  Mr. John Stokes Mr. John Stokes (Halesowen and Stourbridge) rose—
  Mr. Dykes: I prefer not to give way since we have had an injunction from the Chair that we should be brief.
  Mr. Stokes: Did my hon. Friend say "brusque"?
  Mr. Dykes: No, I said "brief".
  It is disappointing that we have reached the present situation when so much water has flowed under the direct elections bridge. However, we now have the Bill before us, and I hope that it will be the earnest desire of the House to support it and to vote for the first-past-the-post system.
  Equally, it will be argued that we should have an alternative system because of the development of circumstances in recent months. However, it is essentially for this House to pass this vital piece of legislation. The European Parliament needs to be made democratic. Furthermore, politically and psychologically the British public need to be apprised of the future verities in Europe in political terms and in terms of its structures. The essential protection in democratic terms is to see that a strong organisation will develop from its small and modest beginnings. Therefore, we need a democratically-elected European Parliament with which the public may identify, whatever system of election may be chosen in this country. I hope that those who go to the European Parliament will in due course be Members of Parliament instead of merely representatives in an Assembly. We do not wish the European Parliament to be an enfeebled type of United Nations.
  The Government have a chance to redeem themselves from their earlier vacillations and lack of Cabinet leadership. It was encouraging that the Home Secretary cleared up a number of understandable confusions and worries about the peculiar and almost Machiavellian way in which Clause 3 is drafted, because that might have caused many people to question whether to support the Bill in the normal way. If the system proposed in Clause 3 (1) is defeated, the Government will need to table an amendment providing for the alternative set out later in the Bill. Certainly we could then have a free vote on that matter, and that might well remove a number of major anxieties and objections.
  There are many other hon. Members who wish to speak in this debate, and I conclude by hoping that there will be an overwhelming vote for the Bill. The sooner the target date is acknowledged— I believe that this can still be met under
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  the first-past-the-post system, although time is getting short—the better. We know all about political suggestions which may have been made to accommodate the Liberal Party on the regional list and all the rest of it, but whatever system is chosen it is important that there should be a target date.
  As the right hon. Member for Fulham (Mr. Stewart) said, it is easy to see slippage in the target date, particularly having regard to the way in which the Community has developed. There could be a danger that, if there is any slippage, direct elections will not take place in May and June next year, much to the pleasure of some hon. Members on both sides of the House but, I think, to the detriment of the Community and of this country.
  The regional list system may be chosen, for all sorts of complicated reasons as a result of sheer force of circumstances in the autumn, when the Bill will presumably be re-presented and debated. Incidentally, I hope that the mathematics and composition of the vote on Second Reading then will be the same as the vote on Second Reading tomorrow. If the regional list system is decided upon on the basis of a free vote, that, too, may well be capable of some rational amendments to improve the methodology. I am sure that there will be some strong objections to the method that is proposed.
  The Leader of the Liberal Party said earlier that he personally did not like the D'Honte proposals as set out, I believe, on page 48 in the schedule which describes how the vote takes place. The Home Secretary caused some amusement when he tried to describe how the voting would be carried out, how the votes would be counted and so on.
  If there is a crucial difficulty over passing the remaining stages of the Bill, or if there is a dilemma over the choice of system, perhaps it would be possible to conceive alternatives to the regional list system as set out in the Bill. Would it be impossible as a compromise that the regional list system might be opened up by removing the proportionality built into it on the D'Honte proposals but still avoiding the need to create controversial European constituencies? We could have the economic planning regions as set out in the Bill, but the vote could take place on a non-proportional basis and therefore

  1315
  be more or less akin to the first-past-the-post system as we know it.
  In other words, we should have the familiarity of voting in county council elections, albeit on smaller areas than in the regions as set out in the Bill. At that stage there could be this familiar pattern for the European elections, as long as each voter had not the one vote proposed in the Bill but as many votes as there are seats in the region. That would be a collective first-past-the-post system, with eight or 10 seats or whatever the number may be. I believe, incidentally, that the 14 proposed for the South-East Region are too many. As time goes on, the attractions of that compromise— using the term "compromise" in its respectable sense—might well become more and more evident if there are difficulties in choosing between the systems.
  Because the Bill is overdue and we and the Community need it, I hope that there will be a strong vote for its Second Reading.
  6.43 p.m.
  Miss Betty Boothroyd: The hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes) has made his usual thoughtful speech on European affairs. I shall follow his example by turning immediately to some of the provisions of the Bill, particularly those concerned with the method of election.
  As a member of the Select Committee which dealt with direct elections, I supported the majority view of the Committee, which recommended the first-past-the-post system. I did this for two major reasons. The obvious one is that it is very simple. We all understand it and it is familiar to everyone. At that time it did not seem to me to be necessary to tamper with the well-known method. However, my conclusion was based largely on the second reason, which I think is more important.
  I inclined to the view that European constituencies should be determined on the basis of recommendations from the Boundary Commission, using as far as possible procedures similar to those employed in the review of parliamentary constituencies. I accepted this in the knowledge that we would have to forgo the second round of representations and inquiries. I took that view then because
  1316
  I believed that if the Select Committee did its work speedily and effectively—
  Mr. Thorpe: May I correct the hon. Lady? There will be representations but no inquiries. The hon. Lady said that there would be inquiries, but option B rules out all inquiries.
  Miss Boothroyd: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that correction.
  The Committee accepted a shortened version of that recommendation, ruling out the usual procedure of the Boundary Commission. I accepted that because I believed that if the Select Committee did its work speedily and effectively— which it did—there would be ample opportunity in the autumn of last year for Parliament to debate the reports and for instructions to be given by Parliament to the Boundary Commission. The Commission would then have been able to do its work without fear that the official process was being unduly accelerated. It followed that legislation could have been introduced by February of this year, which is far behind us now. It is obvious that the dates I had in mind in the Select Committee are long past and no longer have any meaning.
  An additional factor which cannot entirely be disregarded is the way in which other member countries are moving. It was said earlier today that France had not quite finished its legislation. I checked with the French Embassy today and was told clearly that the French Government had in fact completed it. Italy is coming along strongly and other countries are advanced in their preparations.
  However, not all the EEC countries are using their traditional methods of voting. Denmark, for example, is changing its method. Added to this is the inevitability of our moving towards a more uniform system of voting over a five-year period. As likely as not, that will mean fundamental changes for Britain, to a form of proportionality. It seems that, for many reasons, phase one has been overtaken by phase two. In these changed circumstances I have revised my view. I new feel that we should fall much more in line with developments in Europe and move forward to a more uniform electoral system.
  Mr. Spearing: This is a matter of some importance. Article 7 of the Decision

  1317
  on direct elections taken by the EEC states that, pursuant to various treaty articles,
  "the Assembly shall draw up a proposal for a uniform electoral procedure."
  While I understand that some people would like this to be done in the near future, no injunction is given on the timing and the article only asks the Assembly to draw up proposals.
  Miss Boothroyd: It is my understanding that within five years we shall be asked to have a uniform system of proportionality. Let us move towards that rather than continuously being out of step in Europe. Let us have the good sense to get it right first time round once in a while.
  The disadvantage of any list system is the power that it gives to the caucus in a party. Like many hon. Members in all parts of the House, I am concerned that the party machine should not find itself all-powerful in drawing up the list of candidates. Of course, each national party must make its own decisions on how this is to be done, but I should like to see some form of primary system working through constituency parties, with the constituency party delegates making the final decision at a regional level. By this method there would be scope for involving organisations familiar to the Westminster system in the selection.
  I think also that the regional system could produce a balance, not only a geographical balance of people within the region but a broad political balance within the parties in the region.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: Is it the hon. Lady's suggestion that the primary system would reduce the influence of the party? In the United States, where there is a primary system, far from reducing the influence of the party, it very greatly increases it.
  Miss Boothroyd: I was trying to suggest that it would reduce the national party emphasis on selection of candidates. I think that the primary system should be left to constituent parties through to regional level, and the national caucus would have less influence. I am well aware of the system in the United States and hope that it will not develop in this country in that way.
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  Concerning the balance of personalities and people within the region, there is a broad spectrum of people with different attitudes to Europe. If the Parliamentary Labour Party is able to elect from within its own ranks a balanced delegation to the European Assembly, the people in our constituency parties might have no difficulty in working in the same spirit. But there are advantages, too, with the regional list system. Candidates can identify with a particular region if they so wish. They may have worked in the area in a public capacity, or not even in a public capacity. Equally, voters can identify with a particular candidate. This two-way identification is one of the strengths of the simple majority system which would not be lost.
  Mr. Whitehead: Surely it is far stronger if the simple majority system is retained.
  Miss Boothroyd: Of course it would be stronger with the simple majority system, but, for the reasons I have given, I do not prefer the simple majority system. I prefer the regional system. I am trying, as any woman would, to get the best of both worlds.
  Some hon. Members have suggested in the debate that a system of election to the European Assembly which differed in its method from that used in our national elections might be too confusing to the electorate. For almost 20 years, however, Australia has had different methods of electing its House of Representatives and its Senate, and there have been times in recent years when the two different methods have been used by voters on precisely the same day. I do not accept that the British elector is less intelligent than his Australian counterpart. Therefore, I believe that a different system could be used in this country for direct election to the European Parliament.
  Concerning the method of voting, there is a point to be made in relation to Schedule 4, which deals with the election rules. I tend towards the view expressed in The Times last Saturday by Schelto Patjin, the rapporteur on direct elections in the European Assembly. He takes the view that the ballot paper as laid out on page 58 of the Bill would tend to give advantage to a candidate or party with an initial which comes

  1319
  early in the alphabet. I have more reasons than one for not having changed my name. In order not to disadvantage either party or candidate, he suggests that it might be much better to place the party names horizontally across the top of the ballot form, from left to right, with the party with the largest number of seats in Parliament on the left, followed by the party with the second largest number of seats, and so on. The names of the candidates could then be placed vertically in an order determined by the political party itself.
  It is suggested that if there is a lot of printing on a ballot form—an innovation in this country—the voter will tend to read the ballot paper from left to right in the first instance to select the choice of party, and from top to bottom to find the candidate of choice, and that it will be much easier in handling a very large paper with about 50 names on it. This is a detailed matter but nevertheless a very important one for the Standing Committee to consider. I hope that we shall not be too inhibited to learn from others who have already operated the system of proportionality.
  Finally, I want to say a word on a subject which is not totally covered by the Bill but one which it seems inevitably to imply. I very much hope that Westminster's relationships with the European Assembly and its directly-elected Members will not be shoved under the carpet.
  The right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) earlier this afternoon asked who is to police—he used that word—European Assembly Members. I certainly do not wish to see a group of undisciplined, itinerant internationalists with no base at all. I therefore look to Westminster to find some links which could give them a base.
  All the precedents that I have seen seem to be against admitting strangers to our deliberations, and I hold to that. I should not wish to see Members not elected to this Parliament taking their seats here—nor, for that matter, do I wish to see them join Members in the other place—but I hope they will have access to Parliament, so that they may work in the Libraries and use the facilities here and be able to exchange views and ideas with Members of Parliament.
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  There is a fairly good precedent concerning formal links. I refer to the Joint Select Committee on Indian Constitutional Reform, which was established in, I believe, November 1933, with the power
  "to call into consultation representatives of the Indian states and of British India … and in particular to examine and report on the proposals in the State Command Paper".
  What happened was that delegates from the Indian States, from continental British India and from the province of Burma, came and took part in many meetings with the Joint Committee. There were debates and exchanges of views, but what was more important was that they were able to ask questions and to examine witnesses.
  As I understand it, a directly-elected European Assembly will have additional plenary sessions, but Members will be asked to work on only one committee. There will, therefore, be an opportunity to call European Members into consultation and to give them access to a Joint Scrutiny Committee of our two Houses, especially if that body were divided into Committees roughly matching the committee system in the European Assembly and the directorates of the Commission.
  As at present constituted, the House of Lords Scrutiny Committee, with its specialist Committees, which cover a very wide variety of subjects, meets those two provisos. If we were to develop this type of system into a Joint Committee of the two Houses, it could make for part of the link that I am seeking.
  Mr. Dykes: I agree with the hon. Lady's suggestion concerning that kind of structure, but does she agree that it would be a pity if that were used as a substitute for having a large number of European debates on the Floor of the House as well?
  Miss Boothroyd: I accept that. There must be more debate about European matters in this House. This suggestion is only a substitute for that. I am very concerned to see that there is a formal link with our European Members. It could also become a forum for the specialisation which I know from personal experience, as does the hon. Member for Harrow, East, the complexity of European legislation demands. There must, therefore, be a greater degree of

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  specialisation, and I think that it will help towards this as well.
  This is an important constitutional Bill, and I have mentioned only two or three of its ingredients. I welcome the principle of the Bill and hope for its passage. As my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said in opening the debate, there are 635 constitutional experts in this House. Therefore, the sooner the Bill goes into Committee to be dealt with by a few of them, the better.
  6.59 p.m.
  Mr. Julian Amery: I do not think that I can presume to comment on the speech of the hon. Member for West Bromwich, West (Miss Boothroyd) until I have had time to read it rather closely, but I should be speaking for many of us if I said that it would be a help if she could insert in the Official Report, or place in the Library, a diagram of the ballot paper to which she refers.
  Miss Boothroyd: It was in The Times of last Saturday.
  Mr. Amery: I will, if I may, turn to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) and the speech of the hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Mr. Gould), who followed him. My hon. Friend, in a characteristically bland and unpolemical style, hinted that he feared there might be a touch of federalism in what was going on. Of course, the debates between the advocates of federalism and of a Europe of States has been raging inside the European movement since its beginning. I have been associated with the European movement myself since 1946. I was present at the steering committee when Sir Winston Churchill decided to set it up.
  We know a good deal, after all, about the Europe of States. The founder members of the European Community have had 20 years of experience in that direction, but we have had about half a dozen. It would be naive and wrong to say that no progress has been made. Undeniably, there has been great progress since the European Community was started, but we have to ask ourselves whether there has been enough progress to meet the
  1322
  rising economic and social problems of Europe, the dangers from outside and the problems associated with the Third world, particularly with Africa, a continent with which Europe inevitably has such close connections.
  All of us who have studied these matters will feel that there has been a serious limitation on the ability of the European Community to meet the challenges before it. The causes are many, but there is one to which I should like to draw attention. It is an inevitable weakness of parliamentary democracy that democratic Governments are very much subject to the influence of pressure groups and lobbies. Since their span of life is limited to three, four or five years—the lifetime of a Parliament—it is difficult for democratic Governments to take a long view. The dictators have the advantage here. I am not suggesting that we should abandon our system for that particular advantage, but it is a weakness that we have to recognise.
  So, inevitably in any Europe of States, the Ministers who represent the different European Governments have a natural inclination to fight their own corner. All of us who have been associated with this fact, particularly my right hon. Friend the Member for Knutsford (Mr. Davies), will be well aware of that. It is inevitable. The Minister responsible to his own national Parliament, with perhaps another year or so to go before the elections, is under great pressure to fight his own corner very hard. In doing so he is reinforced by the entrenched bureaucracy of his own country, and influenced by the media there. That militates against taking a longer view. We know that there is a European public opinion, sometimes synonymous with, or overlapping, our different national and provincial opinions.
  There is a European opinion, as distinct from a national and provincial opinion, but it does not have focus or a forum in which it can express itself. In my judgment, the real case for the Bill is the need to create a focus, a forum, and an arena in which the public opinion of Europe, as distinct from the national or provincial opinion, can be expressed.
  I am not so concerned with the powers of the Assembly. A Parliament has many functions. In our case it has the critical function of voting supply and it has the

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  legislative function. Personally, I believe that our most important function is the deliberative function. I believe that it is here, in this House, that the public opinion of Britain finds its ultimate expression. All the articles in the newspapers and a lot of the arguments that take place in private find ultimate expression here.
  I should like to see a focus of opinion for Europe, leaving aside all questions of legislative powers and powers for the voting of supply, but a focus where European opinion could be expressed. The present European Parliament cannot do that, because its Members are delegates in the real sense of the word, representing their national Parliaments. An elected Assembly would be different. It would rest on its own independent legitimacy. It would have its own European character. It could speak primarily for Europe, and its Members would be very much less subject to the authority and discipline of their party machines over here.
  Does this mean that I have become a convert to federalism? Not at all. I have never believed that the federal concept, essentially an eighteenth and nineteenth century concept, could apply to the Europe of today. It had its application in the United States of America and in Australia, in large, empty countries with homogenous populations. But Britain and France are not California or New York State. These ancient nations cannot be grouped together in a system of rigid separation of powers.
  Nor do I think, in any case, that the federal system can be applied to our extremely complex, modern economies. When we discussed devolution earlier this year we were all aware, whatever views we took of the devolutionary problem, of the immense difficulties of dividing the powers between, say, Scotland and the United Kingdom Parliament. Economic planning, whether one is marginally for or marginally against planning, is so widespread and so intricate, and goes so deep, that it is not easy in the modern world to have the artificial division of powers that was the main feature of the great federal structures erected in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.
  Mr. Roderick MacFarquhar: The right hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery), whose argument
  1324
  I am following with great interest, lays emphasis on the fact that federalism grew up in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. Does he not accept that the nation State is an even older structure, and is perhaps more in need of reform?
  Secondly, does he agree, on his devolution argument, that nation States no longer have full control of their economies, and that it is in the wider European context that we have to discuss economics?
  Mr. Amery: I do not disagree with the hon. Gentleman. What he says reinforces the point that I was going to make. I believe that we are thinking on the same lines. I was saying that I did not think that a federal system could be imposed on the European nation States as we know them, partly because they are too old, their prejudices are too strong, and their interests too complex, and partly because the modern economic trend does not favour the separation of powers which was the main feature of the federal system. Something else will have to be devised.
  Equally, the intergovernmental, the purely Europe-of-States approach, seems not to be enough. It has worked only once to my knowledge, and that was in the old Commonwealth—that is up to 1950 or 1955. But then we were dealing with a number of countries brought up very much in the same tradition which had been moving from subordination to equal independence but which had a habit of co-operation. Here we are working with independent countries which are now moving towards interdependence. They have to find their own new constitutional forms. This will not be federal, in my judgment, but nor will it simply be a Europe of States.
  Already something of this kind is happening. Historical analogies can be rather boring, but something not unlike the Christendom of the Middles Ages is coming into being. There is the Council of Ministers, which is the Heads of States, the princes, the margraves, the kings of the Middle Ages. There is the Commission itself, rather like the Church, providing the international civil servants and at the same time representing the principle of unity, chiding those who backslide and at the same time coming forward with new initiatives.

  1325
  But the people's voice is absent. In the Middle Ages that was all right, but in this present democratic age it will not do.
  So the issue, in my view, is not the powers of the Assembly but the moral authority which it will have, and the people's voice must be heard if this European movement is to make progress. The authority that the Assembly should have must be devised in the same way as our own authority, and our authority derives from the representative character of our Parliament.
  What matters is that the opinion of the Assembly should count—not what its powers are. But the Government should listen, as we all should, to what it has to say.
  Mr. Spearing: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the authority of this House ultimately rests on the confidence of the electorate in it, just as the authority of the Government rests on its commanding the confidence of this House? In my speech I was attempting to show that the fact that the parties are likely to be weakened by Euro-elections would mean, automatically, that confidence in this House would be reduced, whatever confidence may or may not reside—and I cannot see much residing—in the European Assembly.
  Mr. Amery: Of course there will be the problem of the relationship between the European Parliament and the national Parliaments. There will be a great deal of creative tension—I believe that that is the term. That will not be a bad thing. It will be good for us—both Government and Parliament—to hear the arguments of the European Parliament.
  In these matters it is a great mistake to try to anticipate the way that history will develop and to foreclose too soon results that none of us can foresee. Europe will grow in its own way—and I believe it will be an irresistible way. However, the speed at which it will grow and the constitutional form that it will take will be determined partly by pressures from outside and partly by the interplay of interests and sentiments between the different European countries. We are facing an unprecedented position. Europe's individual nations have not been united since the fall of the Roman
  1326
  Empire and they are trying to come together to form a community. There are powerful forces behind that movement.
  The destiny of that community will depend upon the prudence and foresight with which these forces are guided. Now, in the modern world, that guidance will fail unless it takes full account of the trends of popular opinion. All that I, or any of us, can reasonably seek is to develop a forum in which that popular opinion and the interests and sentiments that underlie it, can be given reasonable expression. That requires a democratically elected European Parliament, however limited its powers. It is for that reason that I give wholehearted support to the principle underlying the Bill.
  7.11p.m.
  Mr. Ivor Clemitson: I listened with great interest to the speech of the right hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery) because it was the first pro speech in the debate which was seriously addressed to the matter of principle. We have heard many arguments about the type of system of elections that we should adopt but we have heard little of the case for direct elections, and the right hon. Gentleman addressed himself to that subject.
  I thought that it might be useful for someone whose views have changed in this matter to make a contribution. I speak as one who opposed entry into the EEC and who campaigned against our continued membership of that institution during the referendum campaign. I did not do so from the point of view of narrow nationalism, nor solely because of our own economic self-interest.
  However, it has seemed to me for a long time that opposition to membership of the EEC as such did not logically and necessarily imply opposition to direct elections. Indeed, it seemed that we could not have it both ways. We could not, on the one hand, criticise the EEC for being a bureaucratic and non-democratic organisation and then, on the other hand, oppose the introduction into the system of the democratic element of direct elections to the European Assembly. That seemed to be a logical argument, and it was deployed by the Liberal Party earlier this afternoon. That seemed to be a consistant position, so why change?

  1327
  The brief answer is that I have come to the conclusion that the logic in my initial position was not pressed to its ultimate conclusion. If we elect two separate bodies of representatives to two separate institutions, ultimately and logically the system is workable and tenable only in a frankly federal system. The two separate institutions must in the end each have its carefully defined powers, which would be mutually exclusive of one another. If that is what the word "federation" is normally taken to mean, I take that to be federation. An example of that is that the powers of Congress and of the State Governments in the United States of America are defined. Such a system is understandably quite workable, and no democrat could possibly deny that the people should elect their representatives to each of the separate representative institutions concerned. After all, the system is federal.
  The conclusion of the logic of the argument with which I started leads inevitably to a federal system, and the corollary of that is that among those who favour direct elections only those who think that the EEC should become a federal system have logic on their side. That is the only truly consistent position on that side of the argument. Those who hold that view could ask "Well, what is wrong with that?" I respect those who are frankly federalist because their position is logical and consistent.
  The answer to the question does not lie in the narrow nationalism which, as I said at the beginning, was never the starting point of my own objections to the EEC. It lies in the nature of a body which has as its members only those countries which share a common prosperity and self-interest in preserving it— if need be at the expense of the poor and underprivileged of the world. It lies in the very term "Common Market" itself. The whole ethos of the organisation is summed up in those two words. It is not a commonwealth but a common market.
  Mr. MacFarquhar: The House will note that the technical term is "European Economic Community", which is far closer to a commonwealth than the usual term "Common Market".
  Mr. Clemitson: My hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. MacFarquhar)
  1328
  is at least using the correct term. He will note, I hope, that I have carefully used the term "EEC" throughout and not the totally misleading word "Europe". Quite clearly, the majority of countries and people in Europe are not in the EEC.
  I should like to touch on a point that my hon. Friend the Member for Belper made in an intervention a few moments ago. He pointed out that our powers as a country, for example, to control our own economic affairs are limited in many ways. They are, for example, limited by the operation of supranational companies, which are one of the new political factors of the twentieth century.
  The key question is, for what reason and purpose is sovereignty—perhaps not in a narrow sense—being limited? The answer so often seems to be, in the case of the EEC, so that we can have imposed upon us solutions to the problems of our partners that make problems of our solutions.
  I do not wish to rehearse the whole question of the nature of the EEC and the case for our non-membership of that organisation. All I say is that, if it is argued that the EEC is not the sort of body of which it is desirable that we should be members, it is clearly absurd to promote the development of that body into the full-blown federation which is the logical end of the road of direct elections.
  However, given that we are, for the time being at least, members of the EEC, the question arises about how best we can make the policy-makers of that body accountable and how we can curb their worst excesses. Therein lies some difficulty. The obvious difficulty lies in the hybrid nature, if I may use that word, of the constitution of the EEC. We have the Council of Ministers, which is comprehensible, and the Commission, which I find extraordinarily difficult to comprehend. The Commission is neither fish nor fowl. It is in a sense a civil service and yet it is not. It is a political institution and yet it is not. It is a body that the great architects of the written constitutions of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries would never have conceived even in their wildest nightmares. The more that it can be subordinated to the Council of Ministers, the better for

  1329
  democracy, and the more that the Ministers can be held accountable to the Parliaments whence they came, the better.
  The analogy that I found of most use in trying to reach a conclusion on this matter is that of collective bargaining. The EEC can be viable, short of fullblown federalism, only as a body in which a collective bargaining process takes place between the constituent members. If there is to be an Assembly, it can work only if, to continue the analogy, there is a single-channel representation to it—that is, representation direct from the elected Parliaments of the constituent members.
  The purpose of the exercise is to achieve the greatest possible accountability of elected representatives. That is what democracy is about. In all this an Assembly can have a useful role, but the attempt to promote greater accountability will be weakened if there are two separate groups of elected representatives each concerned with basically the same matters.
  Mr. Spearing: It is not a question of basically the same matters. They will be giving opinions on the same draft regulations.
  Mr. Clemitson: That reinforces my point. It is only if the pincer movement on the policy-makers is conducted in a co-ordinated fashion that there is any chance of their being brought satisfactorily to account.
  Such a system is not perfect, but direct elections, within the context of a non-federal system, will not achieve the goal of greater accountability. Nor is it a logically defensible position. Only the federalists have consistency on their side among the protagonists of direct elections. To argue otherwise is to delude oneself.
  On what I hope is more mature reflection, my initial position falls on grounds of efficacy and logic. We need to push power downwards; we need also to plan the use of our resources and wealth on a wider scale. Therein lies not a contradiction but a paradox and a challenge. The EEC contributes to neither, and direct elections will do nothing to improve the chances of its doing so. Their inevitable conclusion is either federalism or farce.
  7.23 p.m.
  Mr. George Reid: The fact that the SNP will be in the "Aye" Lobby tomorrow does not imply our slavish support for the Bill in all its stages or our automatic blessing on Third Reading.
  Those of us who live in what some Eurocrats still regard as the great tundra north of Carlisle find two clauses unacceptable. The first is the downgrading of Scots representation compared with other small European nations and the second is the mish-mash of voting methods put forward in the Bill. How the House reacts to and modifies these provisions will be a major determinant of our subsequent voting.
  Why does the SNP give its support to getting the measure off the ground? First, we try not to keep bad company, and those voting against the measure will be the "ultras" of both sides—one group devoted to a return of imperial grandeur and the other devoted to a seige economy the like of which is unknown this side of Eastern Europe. We want no part of that.
  The second reason is our historical and cultural links with Europe through our universities and our legal system. We have been the doctors, administrators, lawyers and academics of Europe, and this provides us with a European dimension to Scots life that is lacking in our more insular southern neighbour.
  Mr. Malcolm Rifkind: The hon. Gentleman said that the SNP does not want to be associated with the extremists on either side. Has he forgotten that the SNP was associated with those extremists during the referendum campaign?
  Mr. Reid: The hon. Gentleman should remember that there was a firm qualification on our side that the terms negotiated by London on Scotland's behalf were not sufficient. We said that Scotland must determine her own links with the European Communities. I shall be developing that point in greater depth later.
  Our third reason for supporting the Bill is, frankly, political. The SNP has never been frightened to fight anywhere, any time any place, for Scotland's interests, and European elections provide us with a unique opportunity to do so. They are unique because, in the EEC context, only

  1331
  the SNP can put Scotland first. Members of other parties are tied to the fact that the majority of their votes come from outside Scotland. In Strasbourg the Liberals will have to keep a weather eye open to the response of their laissez-faire Italian colleagues, the Socialists opposite to the pragmatic Social Democratic Germans, and all parties to their Danish colleagues, when they start plundering our fishing grounds.
  Hon. Members may say that fishing is a national interest. Precisely. That is why Scotland merits national representation. If hon. Members say that this is an anachronistic position, my reply is that, given the development of European institutions, Scotland still has to catch up on full national status, and there will be time enough for Scots Members to decide which political groups they should join when we have an independent State.
  Our fourth reason for supporting the Bill rests on democratic accountability. The only alternative to direct elections is indirect nomination, and we do not want to see the European Assembly become the last refuge for the stately domes of England, a rest home for old party hacks and faithful servants with £150,000 guaranteed in their personal kitty against their retirement. That is not democracy.
  Tony Howard summed up the Bill in the New Statesman as:
  "an animal not unlike the proverbial mule— without pride of ancestry or hope of progeny".
  What could we expect, given the Government that fathered the measure? As usual, they have tried to face both ways— by appeasing their Liberal comrades through the introduction of the regional list and, when that fails, accommodating the Tribune Group with single-member constituencies, when the reality is that the Bill will be got through only with the support of the good old Tories.
  Where does the SNP stand in all this? There was a rather silly intervention in Monday's debate by the hon. Member for Aberdeen, North (Mr. Hughes), who, with a cry of "Eureka!", said that he had spotted a non-monolithic view on the EEC within the SNP. That was rich, coming from his side. It is true that we have different degrees of support for the Community of course, as do all parties.
  I personally believe that the European Communities are a major determinant
  1332
  of where Scotland is going constitutionally —and I can claim to have coined the phrase, some months earlier than did the hon. Member for South Ayrshire (Mr. Sillars), that separation has no meaning within the Communities. I agree that the IMF would not have bailed these islands out if the United Kingdom had not been a member of the EEC, backed by Scotland's oil.
  The SNP has a watertight umbrella on this issue. Up to independence we shall fight the elections with vigour and determination. Come independence, sovereignty will return to the Scots people. As we made clear in our evidence to the Select Committee:
  "the ultimate relations between the European Communities and Scotland as an independent country can be determined only by the Scots people in the circumstances obtaining at Independence."
  That means a referendum in Scotland, with two models being put forward—the Norwegian system of associateship with the Communities and the Danish system of being within the Communities. The "circumstances" will clearly have to cover continuing trade with England, since we are each other's largest market, and the response of the EEC to Scotland's oil and fish and our strategic position.
  For the second half of my speech, I turn to two clauses to which we take exception. The first concerns the number of seats—eight for Scotland, six for Luxembourg, 15 for Ireland and 16 for Denmark. I do not think that I can be accused of special pleading for Scotland, since our evidence to the Select Committee was for proportionality throughout the Communities. We suggested three seats, if necessary six, for each existing member State, plus one member per 650,000 population. That would ensure that there was no conflict of interest between Merseyside, Tyneside and Scotland. But we were told that the interests of small nation States had to be taken into account. Fine— that goes for us, too. We were told that this meant independence. Exactly.
  Luxembourg, with half the population of Edinburgh, will have one MEP per 60,000 population. Ireland, with a population that is 2 million smaller than Scotland, will have one MEP per 200,000 population. Denmark will have one MEP per 313,000. Scotland will have one MEP per 630,000. It is not surprising

  1333
  that in that situation most Scots will argue forcefully "We was robbed".
  For those hon. Members who say that special account has to be taken of small countries' interests, let me remind them of the easy and casual way in which Luxembourg was given its six seats. My source is Mr. Patijn's reply to cross-questioning by myself in the Select Committee on Direct Elections. He said:
  "I went to Mr. Thorn, the Prime Minister of Luxembourg, before I met anyone else. I said 'Mr. Thorn, my suggestion is that no one else gives a damn if Luxembourg has six, five, three, seven or four. What is your number?' He said 'Mr. Patijn, we have in Luxembourg five parties. If every party can get one seat and one extra for the election winner, we are fine.'"
  When I registered some surprise at that, Mr. Patijn said:
  "If we can make Luxembourg happy with six seats, why should you worry?"
  I do worry. Surely I have every reason to worry if seats are being doled out in that casual way. The sooner someone arrives in an independent Scotland and asks what our number is, the better. I give notice that the SNP will table an amendment that will allow Scotland 16 seats. I am quite conscious of course that all we are doing is to put down a marker for the future of what is possible with self-government. I quote the Prime Minister in support of that contention. He said:
  "I confirm that it is only through independence that Scotland will be able to get the same representation as Denmark."— [Official Report, 14th July 1976; Vol. 915, c. 658.]
  Our main effort during the passage of the Bill through the House will be to budge up the Scottish representation. We can claim some weighty cross-party support. Professor Drever of Dundee University, who is hardly a nationalist supporter, argues that Scotland should have representation "in an identifiable way". Lord Gladwyn warns that Scotland could reasonably expect
  "equality with Denmark and superiority to Ireland."
  The British Labour group in Brussels suggested a weighted regional allowance of 10 seats for Scotland. The Labour Committee for Europe argued against the "gross disparity" of Scotland getting only eight seats and the "bias" that that would cause against the EEC. It argued
  1334
  that there should be a minimum of nine seats. The Ulster Unionist Council suggested 12 seats for Scotland. The right hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe), moved an amendment in the Select Committee to give Scotland 10 seats. The Committee in is first report itself argued that the
  "allocation of seats to the United Kingdom should be large enough to provide representation for its component parts not significantly out of proportion to those of smaller member States."
  That is the crunch. This Bill will get into some tight corners during its passage. By my reckoning there are about 40 hon. Members who, on paper at least, are committed to Scotland having a minimum of 10 seats. I hope that the Government spokesman will not attempt to dodge that issue in his winding-up speech.
  Mr. Hurd: In moving his amendment will the hon. Gentleman be urging that the English ration should be reduced so that Scotland may have 16 seats?
  Mr. Reid: The hon. Gentleman should have marked my words with care. I said that I was putting down "a marker" for the future. I implied that those 16 seats were not possible without independence, but that it was perfectly legitimate for my party to put down that marker. That is the option of independence. I then argued that my main purpose would be to budge up Scotland's representation, ideally towards 12 seats, and that many other hon. Members have discussed the possibility of 10 seats.
  I turn to voting systems. Proportionality used to be reserved for those clever chaps at university who presumably could understand it. The regional list system has the advantage that it can be put through the House quickly, but it has certain drawbacks. First, there is no link with a clearly defined constituency. Hon. Members may argue that when the population that is represented reaches 600,000 that hardly matters. That is true only if MEPs double up on Westminster work and the whole range of constituency problems.
  I suspect that industrialists, trade unions and local government would rather deal with "their man". They will want a clearly identifiable man with clear channels running through him to the EEC. That is particularly true in terms

  1335
  of the Highlands and Islands of Scotland. It has an enormous terrain and there are vast distances to be covered. It has farming, fishing, oil and a tremendously important strategic position, but no chance of adequate representation unless the region has its own seat.
  Secondly, the regional list system concentrates far too much power in the hands of the parties' central committees in deciding who gets the EEC job. It diminishes the rôle of people. If it goes through, within my party I shall canvass the idea of regional primaries.
  Thirdly, the size and complexity of voting papers must be considered. After today's talk of vertical and horizontal ballots is it possible that there will be voting in the round—on discs? In any event, with 40 or so names on the paper there will be difficulty. Those persons whose names begin with A will have a decided advantage.
  The regional list system might offer genuine proportionality, but why not allow eight votes for each elector as in the old two-Member seats, such as Dundee?
  Why not permit eight preferential votes? The answer is that the Government Front Bench will have no truck with cross-voting, which is what that would imply.
  I suggest that there is a middle way— namely, single-Member seats plus proportionality. That is contained in the electoral system which the SNP has always advocated—the use of the alternative vote, the system where the voter does not mark the paper with an X but with 1, 2, 3, 4 in order of preference. If a candidate gets 50 per cent., he is elected. If no one gets 50 per cent., the bottom candidate drops out and the preferences are added up until someone has 50 per cent. plus.
  It is the system that is used in elections to the Australian House of Representatives. It is very nearly the system by which hon. Members are elected to this House. It was official Labour policy. An AV Bill passed through all its stages in 1930 but it was thrown out by their Lordships in another place. The Labour Party threatened to use the Parliament Act to bring it back the following year and to force it through. Only the economic crisis of 1931 stopped that.
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  It is interesting that the Liberals favour the use of alternative voting in those areas in which they have fair representation. In the Highlands and Islands they prefer not STV but AV—the very area where they hold Orkney and Shetland, and Inverness. I believe, therefore, that there is a compromise possible between single-Member constituencies and proportionality through the use of the alternative vote, and the SNP will move accordingly.
  In conclusion, the referendum was the great constitutional divide in British politics. For England it marked the final and formal abdication of sovereignty. For Scotland it marked the reawakening of a possible independent role as a small north European country. I do not know where European institutions will take us in their gradual evolution. It may be that my grandchildren will end up in a Europe in which power at the centre is balanced by a proper devolution of power to all small homogeneous communities. We may be heading in time for a Carolingian Europe, with England returning to a heptarchy. I do not know, and that day is not here yet.
  National sovereignty still means something. Scotland's interests in oil and fish and our geopolitical position necessitate national representation in the Community in our own right. As a start to that process, we want a weighting of representation for the small nations of the United Kingdom comparable to the weighting that has already been granted to the small nation States of the European Communities.
  7.39 p.m.
  Mr. William Hamilton: I think that on another occasion the hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Reid) and hon. Members from his party would be ruled out of order on the ground of tedious repetition. We are getting rather tired of their speeches. Whatever the topic, we get the same old claptrap. It serves no useful purpose. Whatever figure was put in the Bill for Scottish representation, the SNP Members would have doubled it or added on half a dozen. They engage constantly in this auction mart. It does neither them nor the House any service.
  No doubt the hon. Gentleman will table his amendment in Committee. I have no doubt that it will be rejected. I suppose that he will return to Scotland to say

  1337
  how Scotland has been persecuted by the Westminster Parliament. We all know that that is completely predictable. It is completely boring and irrelevant to what we are discussing.
  I shall vote for the Bill tomorrow. However, I do not like the shape of the Bill. Still less do I like the delay in introducing it or the manner in which the Government are allowing their Front Bench a free vote.
  I think that an outside observer, listening to earlier speeches, would find it hard to believe that we were embarking on a major constitutional measure of legislation, seeking to fulfil an international obligation solemnly and freely entered into and implementing a pledge given in the Queen's Speech just a few months ago.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Fulham (Mr. Stewart) made the point initially that we ought to be clear about what the vote tomorrow night is about. It is on the principle not of direct elections but of whether we stay in or get out of the Common Market. With one or two exceptions, all right hon. and hon. Members who go into the "No" Lobby tomorrow night will be those who were and still are against our membership of the European Economic Community. We had better not lose sight of that fact.
  Despite their protestations to the conrary—if, indeed, there are any—certain right hon. and hon. Members on the Government Front Bench, and on the Back Benches too, have never accepted the clearly declared will of the people emphasised in the decisive referendum in 1975. We have had all kinds of alibis. Not long after the result of the referendum, certain hon. Members were bleating "We was robbed." For one reason or another, because the referendum result did not go their way, they argued that the debate was distorted, that money talked, and all the rest.
  The instigator of that instrument—my right hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn), now Secretary of State for Energy—did not foresee those dangers when he argued for the introduction of this constitutional innovation. He found his home-made bomb blowing up in his face, rather like some inefficient IRA operator. It was he who, in his pro-European days—I have quoted this before but it is not too well known—
  1338
  argued with his customary smoothness and conviction that in order to protect the small man from the big international companies it was necessary to create big international political institutions. That argument is as valid today, if not more so, as when my right hon. Friend put it forward in the first instance.
  I turn now to my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. Ten years ago or thereabouts he was the Government Chief Whip who whipped us through on a three-line whip in favour of entry into the Common Market.
  We have had some interesting changes in dispositions on this matter. I make no complaint about that. However, the argument will go on. Whether the Bill is passed or not, the anti-Marketeers will still campaign against our continued membership of the EEC, but the onus is on them to convince people that there is a viable alternative.
  I am not as enthusiastically pro-European as many of my right hon. and hon. Friends, but I firmly believe that there is no viable alternative for this country to pursue. The longer this debate goes on, the greater the degree of uncertainty that will be generated and, therefore, the greater the likelihood that our economic and political problems will continue and increase.
  If my right hon. Friends who are now in the Government and who, presumably, will vote against the Bill tomorrow had the courage of their convictions, they would have resigned. Does anyone really believe that on an issue such as this in the Parliamentary Labour Party men of the calibre of Ernest Bevin, Nye Bevan, Stafford Cripps, Attlee or Gaitskell would not have taken the honourable course and resigned their portfolios? These comments need to be made in the House as well as upstairs and outside.
  I turn from those parenthetical remarks to the Bill. It is a marvellously generous invitation to filibuster. If I were an Opposition Member, I should love the prospect of the Bill going into Committee of the Whole House, just as I should love the prospect of a Bill on House of Lords reform and the devolution Bill going to a Committee of the whole House.
  I remind my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House that we are now

  1339
  more sovereign than he is. We have a good deal more power, because of the nature and composition of the House, than we normally have when there is an overall clear majority for one party or another. If the Bill gets stuck in Committee, other Bills can get stuck in Committee. There are quids pro quo in all this, and the leader of the House had better understand that when we get to the next Session.
  I believe that in producing the Bill the Government, to quote their phrase, have used their best endeavours to ensure, first, that the Bill does not reach the statute book much before Christmas 1978; secondly, that consequently there can be no European parliamentary elections before the autumn of 1979; thirdly, that before that eventuality there will be a General Election in the United Kingdom; and, fourthly, that that would mean a further delay of at least a year, taking us into late 1980 even if that General Election returned the Government with a substantial overall majority heavily committed to direct elections as a high priority piece of legislation. If that is the possible scenario—I may be wrong, and I hope that I am—what will be the effect on our European partners and on our standing in the forum of world politics? In my view, it would be disastrous.
  It is relevant—my right hon. Friend the Member for Fulham touched on this point—to ask the Government whether they seriously intend to enact this legislation in the next 12 months come what may. It should not be too much to ask the Government to make a declaration of intent in winding up the debate tomorrow night. They must give that assurance. I repeat, a lot of that other legislation will depend on the nature of the reply to that question which has been posed by various of my right hon. and hon. Friends. If the question is answered either unsatisfactorily or not at all, we shall suspect that the Bill is another piece of cynical window-dressing backed by no serious intent or conviction. The fact that these questions can be asked at all is a measure of the suspicion and bad faith that the Government have engendered in this area over the last 12 months.
  I shall vote with the majority tomorrow evening, because—I agree with the hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire here if on nothing else—it
  1340
  is part of the demoralisation—a horrible word—of institutions in Europe, and I am in favour of democratisation wherever we can engage in it. If I failed in that respect I should be accused of being a party to reneging on treaty and international obligations into which we have entered voluntarily.
  I visualise a prolonged Committee stage. I shall support the proposition of proportional representation by means of the regional list if for no other reason than that the Labour Party had better accept that the first-past-the-post system would result in a massacre for us. The result would be a disaster for my party if we adhered to the timetable and the principle of first past the post.
  Most hon. Members realise that every system of voting always has disadvantages, absurdities and anomalies. I do not know of any system which is free from them. They are less important than the problems that are likely to arise from the nature of the jobs of Members of the European Parliament, their roles and their relationships with constituents, their parties and the House. These problems must be worrying to hon. Members who have been in the House for any length of time. Although this is a major step into unknown territory, we can argue about the likely results.
  It has been argued that this measure is a step on the road to federalism. I do not mind if it is. Indeed, I think that it might be. I am not objecting to it. Federalism is not a dirty word. The inevitable and desirable consequence of democratic elections to the European Assembly will be that its Members will demand, and get, more power. To that extent it will reduce the sovereignty of this Parliament. However, let no one exaggerate the sovereignty of this legislature. One of the problems is the great and developing gulf between the power of the Executive and the powerlessness of the legislature. To my knowledge, we have done little to redress that balance in the last quarter of a century. I am not afraid of that situation. We have to look at the problems of sovereignty and legislative power in the proper context of the nation State.
  It is interesting that some of my hon. Friends, generally speaking members of the left-wing who think that they are international Socialists, are more parish

  1341
  pump than the humblest parish councillor. They think that we can solve the problems if we get off the world.
  Fundamental problems are incapable of solution in a purely national context. One of my hon. Friends talked about fluted bottles. But let us suppose that we got out of the Market. It might take upfluted bottles and then say to us that we must not send bottles to them unless they are fluted. We shall dance to their tune whether we like it or not. That is why we joined NATO, the United Nations and all kinds of international institutions. We understood at the end of the war that our international role could be played only through international institutions.
  Mr. Spearing: What my hon. Friend is saying is true in terms of international co-operation. We are all supporters of the United Nations and the various alliances and arrangements that we have made. What we object to is the supranational authority in which package bargaining takes place across the board.
  Mr. Hamilton: If my hon. Friend believes that package bargaining does not take place in the United Nations, for instance, he is deluding himself. Whatever the organisation, whether it is the Labour Party, the Tory Party or the Boy Scouts, argy-bargying takes place. We have probably lost the JET project because of the stubbornness of the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food about other matters. When one joins an international institution, that is how things operate. [Interruption.] We had better live in the real world. My hon. Friend the Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing) keeps chuntering.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Myer Galpern): I hope that the hon. Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton) will not continue a dialogue with his hon. Friend the Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing).
  Mr. Hamilton: I was enjoying it.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: I am concerned about other hon. Members who are anxious to take part in the debate.
  Mr. Hamilton: I have been waiting all the time to speak, and I am about to conclude. I do not want to run away
  1342
  from my hon. Friend. We have to participate in this kind of exchange. The Chair should not intervene too much. If I give way to my hon. Friend, that is my business.
  This is a challenge to the House to face up to the issues in their proper international context. I do not know what the end product will be, but I believe that we simply cannot contract out of this international development. We had better resolve at this time to get on and make these things work according to our standards. To try to pretend that we can get out and pursue our nationalistic course and thereby find solutions to our problems is living in cloud-cuckoo-land.
  7.57 p.m.
  Mr. John Stokes: I should like to take up many of the aspects mentioned by the hon. Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton) in his interesting speech. However, in view of the time and because I have been sitting here since the start of the debate, I shall refrain from doing that.
  I consider the Bill to be bad, whether one is in favour of direct elections or not. It has little to do with the good of the country and everything to do with the attempt of the present Government to cling to office. A better title to the Bill would be "Lib-Lab Pact (Continuation) Bill".
  The choice of proportional representation or our system of voting has been put in quite cynically. If by any mischance proportional representation were adopted, with all the threatened risks to our system of voting, the Labour Government would bear a heavy responsibility. The Bill is badly drafted and will need substantial amendment. It is full of muddles, absurdities and anomalies. If it is given a Second Reading tomorrow night I confidently expect that it will be lost in the sands in the same way as the Scotland and Wales Bill was lost. I certainly hope that there will be no question of a guillotine being introduced for such a vitally important Bill.
  I want to concentrate on direct elections. I have always been a loyal and steady supporter of this country playing its part in the EEC, but I cannot support direct elections to the European Assembly. I realise that the Assembly has few powers and that its proceedings are not,

  1343
  in general, in conflict with those of our Parliament. But I am sure that the character and powers of the European Assembly are bound to change in time, as a result of direct elections. Elected representatives have an ingrained habit of demanding the fullest powers.
  That, I believe, is one of the lessons of history. I have no doubt that eventually an elected European Assembly will lead to a fully federal Europe, which I do not want to see, at least in my own lifetime. If we go to our constituencies and try to arouse some interest in this subject, we shall find that there is no demand whatever for direct elections. We understand that the cost of them, in present money, will be at least £10 million each time and, of course, with inflation that will increase.
  I wonder also how many of our constituents will take the trouble to vote, with the huge constituencies and the new arrangements, whatever they may be. The constituencies certainly will be too large for the representatives to have any real relationship with the electors, and that, of course, will be something entirely new in English history.
  Some people have mentioned the salaries of the new Members of the European Assembly, which, we are given to understand, may be four or five times the size of our own salaries. That will make British Members of Parliament here seem very poor relations, and in an increasingly materialistic society this is bound to make people look unfavourably on our own Westminster Parliament in comparison to the European Assembly, with its much richer and more prestigious Members.
  I have always wanted, in company, I believe, with most of my countrymen and certainly in company with the ideals of Churchill, Adenauer and de Gaulle, to have my country represented in the EEC by a Minister responsible to this House and not by politicians with no connection what ever with us and who, in time, will bypass this House and will certainly become deadly rivals to us.
  The composition of this Assembly will not, of course, correspond in party-political terms to the composition of this House, and that alone may cause endless conflict, quite apart from the natural rivalries which there are bound to be.
  1344
  But my greatest fear arising from the Bill is something that has not so far been mentioned by any speaker in this debate —the inevitable weakening of our own national pride and patriotism, which will result from so much power and influence being taken from this Parliament and being passed on to the Assembly in Europe. I believe that a sound national patriotism must be the basis on which all Government policies are founded. Take away this foundation and all will fail or wither away.
  I feel that some of my colleagues— some of them young men in a hurry—in their over-enthusiasm for the European Assembly, may need reminding that the Tory Party alone is the national and patriotic party of this country. If we are to agree to the Bill, which in my view means, in the end, giving up our own nationhood, with its incomparable history and traditions, political life will cease to have any meaning or purpose in this historic and still envied Chamber.
  Patriotism in this country is not dead; the Jubilee gave us a glimpse that it still burns brightly in the hearts of millions of the Queen's subjects, if only it can be aroused. I feel, therefore, that there are grave dangers if we give up our loyalty to this Parliament of the United Kingdom in favour of some vague and ill-defined European notion. People, after all, must know what they love, and must feel that they belong to it.
  I understand that one day we may be able to revive the ideal of Christendom, but not, I think, in our lifetime, or in the lifetime of my children or my children's children. For all our common Christian heritage in Europe, there are still profound differences between our way of life in this country and that on the Continent, and these differences may reach breaking point if Spain, Portugal, Greece and Turkey become our partners in the EEC. Certainly the addition of those countries, with which we have much less close links than we have, say, with France and Germany, will utterly alter the character of the Community.
  I have always regarded the EEC as a grand alliance that underpins NATO and that with the United States of America is part of the Western bastion against Russia and the Warsaw Pact countries. It means, in political terms, that France and Germany will never fight again. In

  1345
  personal terms it means to me that my son will not have to fight in a European quarrel, as I did and as my father did before me. This, it seems to me, is a noble ideal and far transcends the shortcomings, for instance, of the common agricultural policy.
  But by passing the Bill we cannot suddenly dissolve our British heritage, as some people want us to discard our British passports overnight. It seems to me mad to suggest such a thing. Nor do I believe that our constituents will understand or follow it. Surely we must be true and faithful, giving our loyalty to our own country first, before, perhaps a long time hence, merging this loyalty in a larger European concept. These are some of the dangers to which direct elections are bound to lead us.
  There is no urgent need for these elections. The EEC has got on perfectly well without them for nearly 20 years—and what is 20 years in the lifetime of Europe? I am sure that we can wait another 20 years without any grave problem. There is no urgent need for the elections, and we should not have them.
  To my mind, the most important thing to which we ought to be addressing ourselves now, and which ought to be a concern of the EEC, is the need to work towards a common foreign policy. That is much more important than the mere matter of direct elections. Let us try to consolidate the EEC gradually, step by step, on firm foundations, and let us also try to carry public opinion with us at every stage. I do not believe that the British public are yet ready for an elected European Assembly. I am certainly not ready, nor, I believe, in its heart of hearts, is the Tory Party.
  8.8 p.m.
  Mr. Phillip Whitehead: I had hoped that the hon. Member for Halesowen and Stourbridge (Mr. Stokes), whose speeches, suffused as they are with the imperial afterglow, always entertain and enrich the House, would have been persuaded of the virtues of an enlarged and developing Europe by some of the suggestions that have come from the Opposition side of the House. We have heard those, such as the right hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery), who have said that we were restoring
  1346
  the Europe of the Middle Ages—the ideals of Christendom to which the hon. Gentleman referred. Another hon. Member said that we might be moving back towards the kingdoms of the heptarchy. But none of this has been enough to persuade the hon. Gentleman that there might be something in the idea of direct elections.
  I think that the hon. Gentleman is confusing the idea of direct elections and what the peoples of Europe might do with the elected representatives whom they will send to the European Parliament with ancient notions of loyalty and a visceral sense of national identity, which will be in no whit diminished by the developments in Europe that we are likely to see in our lifetime.
  After 20 years or more of the European Coal and Steel Community, Euratom and the Common Market, we have not seen Germans any less German, the French any less French or—as some would say with regret—the Italians any less Italian than they were immediately after the war. What is happening is that the peoples of Europe are attempting not to submerge their identities but to merge as best they can their common interests in collaborative ventures, by conciliation and discussion rather than by war and rivalry as in the past, to advance the common interests of Europe and, indeed, mankind.
  Therefore, the first thing that we should ask ourselves in this debate is whether that common interest for all of us as Europeans is advanced or hindered by this proposal. Second, how can we consider the undoubted fact that power is moving both up and down from Westminster? We may not like that fact, but it is happening, and quite irrespective of this constitutional proposal. Westminster just happens to be too big for some things. Hence our arguments about devolution, all the arguments over the years about the relative powers of local government, and also, therefore, the arguments which we are having about supranationality and what form that takes when we consider our elected representatives and the organisations which govern our lives.
  I do not happen to feel that we shall progress towards a federal Europe. I would actually prefer it. I am by instinct a federalist. But it is far more likely that

  1347
  the nation States of Europe and the way in which the EEC has developed will take us in a confederal direction. I would therefore say to my hon. Friends, some of whom are absent, who have spoken eloquently today that there is no question of this country being led through one hoop at a time, as my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test (Mr. Gould) said—negotiation, entry, direct elections, federalism, each time the next one following automatically, with the poor deluded electorate never able to look up and see the direction in which we are moving. That is a fallacious view of how the electorate has judged this great argument and how it will see its interests and the national interest as we enter the next stage of the evolution of Europe.
  I am sorry that my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test said that we wish to, and should, develop and strengthen if we can the institutions of Westminster for dealing with the problems raised by entry to the Common Market— as though that were on all points in conflict with the notion of strengthening democratic accountability within the Community itself. That is quite wrong.
  I commend to my hon. Friend in his absence the thoughtful piece of another hon. Friend of ours, my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott), who is the leader of the British delegation to the European Parliament. He outlined in an article in Labour Weekly, from the point of view of an anti-Marketeer but also from the point of view of his experience within the European Parliament, what will happen after direct elections and the way that that might go. He has been able to see that this is a bilateral approach, that we should be strengthening the institutions of Westminster and looking at Committees with powers of scrutiny and extending the scrutiny that we have over the activities of the Commission and of the Council of Ministers, but that at the same time we should be saying that there is a rô1e for an elected Assembly, whether at Luxembourg or Strasbourg or whatever.
  In his article, my hon. Friend said:
  "It could control its own budget and the distribution of resources set aside for the development of agreed European policies. It could establish its own Public Accounts Committee and auditors to investigate money spent on European policies. It could develop a more effective committee system, such as that
  1348
  in the United States Congress, to supplement investigations, checks and democratic accountability on all matters of public concern in the community."
  My hon. Friend went on to talk about the investigative rôle which the Committees could have:
  "The growth of multinationals, the scandals of Lockheed, oil company payments in Italy and missing uranium ore have all shown that national Parliaments are not in any position to check the growth of a new and marked development of corporate power."
  I endorse every word of that.
  I have had many arguments with my hon. Friend about the question of Europe and whether we should accede to the EEC, but from the standpoint of his contribution within the European Parliament he has been able to see the rôle that it should have. I think he sees that the extra muscle that the Parliament needs can come only from democratic representation, from those people being sent there by the electorate and that electorate sending them there with the additional urgency and force of people who wish to see an accounting made, who want a first-hand explanation of the absurdities of the CAP, the buttermountain and the wine lake, who also want to know who has been on the gravy train, where the money has gone and what the national and international scandals have been which this Westminster Parliament, for all its vaunted sovereignty, has been remarkably lax in following up.
  That is the charge that I would make to those of my hon. Friends who have spoken, on the whole, in moderate terms in this debate. We have had none of the "scorched earth" policy which seems to be advocated by some of my hon. Friends who are talking about coming out of the Community altogether. To those who have put the strict constitutional argument, I would say: "Do you want accountability or not? If you do, will you accept for one moment"—ex hypothesi, as my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test would say— "that there are areas in the supranational level where this Parliament simply is not adequate to follow up and thrash out all the issues which concern our constituents and that they need in this respect to be served by their directly elected representatives at the Luxembourg Parliament?"
  Mr. Spearing: Is not my hon. Friend reinforcing the very arguments which my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test (Mr. Gould) made earlier? He is saying that, in order to achieve accountability, we must have an elected Assembly. But is not that, in effect, a federal State which is democratic? Does is not mean that the Economic Community will work only in that way?
  Mr. Whitehead: No, it does not mean that at all. It means that there will be power in that confederal setting and there will be accounting, just as there is at various other levels.
  I would say to my hon. Friend and to others who have taken the line in the debate that there would be a clash between the representatives of the European Parliament and of the national Parliaments that to some degree they are right. But that is true of the extension of democracy into every sphere. There are clashes of interest between the national Government and local government. This Parliament has lived through the arguments about Clay Cross. This Parliament is at the moment confronting Conservative-controlled local authorities asserting a different sort of power and sometimes asserting or claiming a different sort of sovereignty against Westminster about what the Secretary of State can do and what the elected local government can do.
  I do not regard that tension and clash as at all a bad thing. It is built into a democratic system that power is exercised at different levels and that the people exercising it are held accountable to those who are themselves the same electorate. One man, more than one vote, is the important thing in this instance. One has a vote for one's county council and one will have a vote for a regional assembly if there is devolution, and there will be voting for the Westminster Parliament. Why not also a vote for an elected European Parliament? There is no logic against it.
  Those who have pressed their logic a little further and who see this proposal taking us down all these terrible paths must accept that a diet of pressed logic, like a diet of chopped logic, is not very wholesome. Those who see it this way are standing in the light of the democratic process. They may not realise it
  1350
  —they may think that they are asserting the ancient traditions of the Westminster Parliament—but they are preventing our electors from having the kind of scrutiny which they might have by having their directly elected representatives in the Luxembourg Parliament.
  Mr. Spearing: That is federal.
  Mr. Whitehead: I wish, frankly, that we were moving in a federal direction. As I said, I think that it will be confederal and that it will not move any further than that.
  I depart from the Government on the question of the method to be used. I can understand why this has been put in the Bill. It is no shame or disgrace to say that, when the agreement between the Liberal and Labour Parties exists, the option of the regional list should be put into the Bill and given all the force—it will not, I fear, be very much—which endorsement from the Front Bench can carry.
  However, I believe that it is in this country's interests and in the interests of everyone here—even hon. Members from the Liberal Party—who considers the matter carefully not at this stage to embark on the introduction of the regional list system before there has been much more consideration of whether it really is fairer to use some form of proportional representation rather than the first-past-the-post system.
  In our earlier debate on the White Paper, several hon. Members said with some force that we had had no Speaker's Conference on electoral reform. We have had various proposals in the past which have been chopped and changed according to the electoral conveniences of the moment. That is no good way to introduce the kind of proposals which are in this Bill and which would then be used, whether we like it or not—it is disingenuous to suggest that things would not develop this way—as a precedent for the introduction of some form of PR for the Westminster Parliament. Of course they would. We all know that. That is one of the reasons why the proposal is in the Bill in this form.
  Almost no constitutional proposal for altering the method of election has come about because of a perfect belief in greater representation and a fairer share of the

  1351
  vote. We all know why the Labour Government in 1931 brought in the alternative vote proposal; we all know why there is the single transferable vote in Northern Ireland. Incidentally, I think that that has not achieved all that was claimed for it. I looked with some interest at the results of the elections in the Republic of Ireland last week. The STV system there produced almost exactly the same result as the first-past-the-post system would have done, but with two small differences. It took two days longer to count the votes, and the most outspoken and courageous member of the minority party, the Labour Party, Dr. Conor Cruise O'Brien, was defeated, whereas he would not have been defeated on the first-past-the-post system.
  This is something upon which the Liberals should reflect. I have heard it suggested that the National Front might well stand to gain under any STV system. We have to be careful. Professor David Butler has produced figures to show that if we had the system proposed in the Bill the representation—based on the October 1974 figures—would differ significantly only in the presence of Liberal representatives at Luxembourg. It would not much alter the proportions of the other minor parties elected. We must be careful about introducing a constitutional change purely in order to accommodate a single party, however worthy it may be and however much its support is valued and cherished by the Government.
  I support the Lib-Lab agreement. There will be much common ground between the two parties, and not merely in the matter of escapology and in the interest of clinging together to survive. It will be in a radical programme which can be put forward next year. But I say seriously to the Liberals that these proposals are not necessarily part of it. They go too deep in altering the relationship between the Member and his constituents, in altering the power of those who select a candidate and are closely linked with him thereafter when he is elected, not to control him but to undertake a reasonable dialogue with him, such as they should have even in the larger constituencies provided for the European Parliament. If one introduces this system, one strongly introduces the power of the caucus. I do not believe that the party apparatus would agree to
  1352
  that single vote for any individual candidate in the kind of way set out in these proposals over any long period of time.
  I hope that the Government will be able to tell us, in the event—which I anticipate —of an amendment being moved to strike out Clause 3 and the three appropriate schedules, at what point they expect that the Boundary Commissioners will be able to set out on the preliminary work involved in producing the 81 individual constituencies. That will be needed if we use the first-past-the-post method. I accept that that would mean a delay of at least a year but the Government should be honest and tell us. They must expect that that will be the outcome and that we will come out of all this with the first-past-the-post system some time early next year. Therefore, they must anticipate that we are talking of direct elections in 1979 and not in 1978.
  Again, what, if any, shared rôle do the Government see for the directly-elected representatives in the Westminster Parliament? Will there be a Joint Committee? Will they be sent to the House of Lords? What is to happen? There is nothing in the Bill about it, and we should know before we decide upon the Bill and what form it should take.
  8.35 p.m.
  Sir Anthony Royle: My views are well known. I have spoken in practically every debate on this subject in the past 18 months. I have only two points to make now, although I agree with much of what the hon. Member for Derby, North (Mr. Whitehead) said.
  I wish to speak mainly about the delay in bringing the Bill forward. My right hon. Friend the Member for Knutsford (Mr. Davies) made the point that the Government have delayed unreasonably in bringing the Bill before the House. It is not just nine months or 12 months—it is over 18 months since the Government started talking about bringing in a Bill for direct elections.
  In the debate on 25th April, I pointed out that we had had a Green Paper in April 1976, a two-day debate in March 1976, a debate on the Adjournment on 12th July last, a debate on 7th February, and a debate on 25th March on a motion moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Devon, West (Mr. Mills). Then we

  1353
  had the two-day debate in April. The Select Committee was set up on 13th May last year. My hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Oxon (Mr. Hurd) and I were members. The Committee produced three reports. All this has taken place in the last 18 months and the Government have done nothing until now about bringing a Bill before us. Yet today the Prime Minister had the nerve to try to justify the delay.
  The Prime Minister cannot justify it. If there is delay in the Bill going through the House he cannot put the blame on the Scottish National Party, or on the Ulster Unionists, or on the Conservative Party, or, indeed, on Back Bench Members of his own party, because the delay has been caused by the Government in their efforts over the last 18 months to avoid bringing this important legislation before the House.
  As recently as the Spring Adjournment debate on 26th May, I raised the question of the delay with the Leader of the House. We had read in the Press that he was the leader of a faction in the Cabinet deliberately stopping the legislation from being published and coming before the House. He replied:
  "… it is no mystery that what Cabinets do is to argue about the different points of view, resolve them and communicate the result to the House."—[Official Report, 26th May 1977; Vol. 932, c. 1639.]
  But there is no mystery about the Cabinet argument in this case. The mystery is that it was not resolved. One can only describe the six Ministers concerned in Peking terms—perhaps they would be called there the "Gang of Six". They brought about the delay to the Bill, and as a result betrayed a pledge by the Cabinet in the Queen's Speech at the beginning of this Session. In that speech they agreed to say that the Government would bring in this Bill, yet, when the crunch came in Cabinet, they told the Prime Minister in no way would they support him and they wished for a special arrangement whereby they could vote against the Bill, although I understand that they are not to be allowed to speak against it.
  All this has caused great distress to many of us who are passionately keen that this country should fulfil its obliga-
  1354
  tion to use its best endeavours, which the Prime Minister promised our friends in Europe we would do, to get the Bill through in time to play our part in electing directly to a European Parliament Members from this country as is to be done in the other countries of the Community.
  Mr. Marten: It is an Assembly.
  Sir A. Royle: My hon. Friend talks about an Assembly, but I have always talked about a Parliament. I know that my hon. Friend always likes to call it an Assembly—
  Mr. Marten: The Government call it an Assembly.
  Sir A. Royle: The fact that the Government call it an Assembly has no influence at all on me. Over the last two or three years the Government have constantly changed their terminology with regard to what it should be called. However, the terminology is not very important.
  The second point that I wish to raise is the question of the system that the Bill includes. I should like to speak briefly on this point. My position with regard to the system is quite clear. I wish to see the Bill become law. I am not particularly worried whether we have a first-past-the-post system or a PR system. It is more important that we should have directly-elected members to the European Parliament or Assembly.
  However, if I had the choice I would prefer a first-past-the-post system, because I believe that it maintains and strengthens the link that is very important at present between the constituencies and the members of the European Parliament. I would prefer the first-past-the-post system, although I am not adamant on that point.
  But I do believe that if we are to get the Bill through the House there must be a fair choice. I would support the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Bridlington (Mr. Wood). We are not in agreement about a system, particularly as I understand that he is enthusiastic about PR for the Westminster elections, to which I am opposed. But I believe that my right hon. Friend made a fair point when he said that we must have a fair choice. I do not think that we are getting a fair choice under the Bill as drafted.

  1355
  Twice in interventions this afternoon I raised the possibility of the Home Secretary informally asking the Boundary Commission to start work immediately. We were given evidence in the Select Committee that this could be done. No one is suggesting that there should be a formal instruction to the Boundary Commission. All that is being suggested is that the Secretary of State should say to the Boundary Commission "Would you now informally start the work necessary to delineate the boundaries for constituencies in case the House of Commons decides to vote for a first-past-the-post system and not for a PR system?" The Home Secretary, in an earlier intervention, made it quite plain that there is no statutory reason to stop the Boundary Commission from starting this informal work forthwith.
  The only worry that the Home Secretary had—[Interruption]. There is no legal point against it. The Home Secretary made it quite plain that it would not be illegal for the Boundary Commission to start work straight away. The only problem is the small amount of money that might need to be spent during that period.
  If that proves an insurmountable problem, and the money cannot be voted by the House in time for the Boundary Commission to start its informal work, there is another alternative that the Government can consider—to bring before the House a motion that is quite clear, so that the House can vote on the system before we rise for the Summer Recess.
  If it is not possible to do it by voting on the clause in this Bill it is perfectly possible, within the next 10 days or fortnight, for the Government to table a form of words that enables the House to vote on a straight motion on whether we have a PR system, as indicated in the Bill, or a first-past-the-post system. The House will then make its decision. If it votes for PR, there is no problem. We go ahead with PR in the Bill and the Bill is again introduced in the autumn so that we can go ahead with a regional list system Bill.
  If the House votes for a first-past-the-post system there is again no problem. That will give an instruction to the Secretary of State to allow the Boundary Commission to spend the small amount of money necessary to start informal
  1356
  work. When the Bill comes before the House again on Second Reading in the autumn much of the work will be completed and it can go through and the boundaries can be devised well before elections take place in June next year.
  Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: I hope that my hon. Friend is not overlooking the small matter of the Money Resolution. Is he proposing that a Minister can give informal consent for public money to be spent without a Money Resolution?
  Sir A. Royle: If it is not possible for the Minister to act without a Money Resolution, along the lines that my hon. Friend has suggested. I suggest that there should be a debate in the House on a motion. Following that motion, if the House agrees on a first-past-the-post system, a formal Money Resolution can follow, which will enable the Boundary Commission to start work. It is a very simple procedure. I cannot imagine why the Government are making such heavy weather over it.
  Mr. Budgen: Is it not the case that a review of boundaries, or the setting up of the Boundary Commission, is a legal system that has a number of steps to it? If the first steps are taken without authority, would that not vitiate later steps? Could it not be argued in the courts that the initial steps were ultra vires?
  Sir A. Royle: There is no question of taking steps. Parliament would give authority by passing the Money Resolution. The Boundary Commission is sitting at present. There are three members who are Boundary Commissioners, and under them is a large body of devoted and hard working people, who are looking at the Westminster constituency boundaries. They could spend the next two or three months devising boundaries for this important European election.
  It is quite clear to all of us that if the Government had stuck to its original target to bring this Bill forward a year or 18 months ago there would have been no problem. Because the Government delayed and prevaricated we are now faced with their putting forward this tardy Bill and putting a choice in front of the House. But, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bridlington said, it is a bogus choice.

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  It is up to the Home Secretary to ensure that we have a fair choice. I hope that the Home Secretary, for whom most of us on the Opposition Benches have great respect because he is an honourable man, will put this matter right when he winds up the debate. I hope that he will offer us the opportunity of reaching a decision on the system before the Summer Recess.
  If he does this he can feel that when tomorrow night comes and the House gives a massive majority for the Second Reading—as I have no doubt it will— that majority came after an honourable debate, and from the certainty that we can come to a fair decision on the system by which people will vote for their first directly elected Members of the European Parliament.
  8.33 p.m.
  Mr. Roderick MacFarquhar: I sympathise with much of what the hon. Member for Richmond, Surrey (Sir A. Royle) has said. I have attempted to suggest to my right hon. Friend, the Leader of the House that it would be desirable to have a decision on the system of election before the Summer Recess. I hope that some result will come from the efforts that a number of us have made to try to persuade the Government on this matter.
  I welcome the Bill despite the delay, which is deplorable. I welcome it because the Bill, together with the legislation going through the Parliaments of the eight other member States, will provide full democratic supervision, if not control, of the European Commission, European legislation and the European Council of Ministers. I welcome it also because, quite frankly, I see it as a further step towards the creation of European political unity—federation, if one likes—although obviously there are many further steps to be taken before such an objective is achieved.
  I shall confine my remarks to two aspects—the questions of the system to be used, and the timing. I am not formally wedded to any system of election. It seems to me that the vital element in the debate is that the election should take place and take place on time. I am not particularly wedded to any system for the election, because it is clear that this is a once-off event and there will be a change
  1358
  in the future. Therefore, it does not matter if we have a first-past-the-post system because it is likely that this will be changed next time round.
  It is quite clear that if there is to be harmonisation—and that is the declared objective—none of the other members of the Common Market will move towards our system. It is much more likely that we shall move towards proportional representation.
  I also believe—it is worth asserting this again—that if there is a single-Member constituency in, for example, my county of Derbyshire and one Member is elected to the European Parliament for Derbyshire, that person will appear to some degree to be a greater figure—a colossus —bestriding the eight or so Members of the Westminster Parliament representing parts of the county of Derbyshire. It will come to a situation in a single, definable constituency where the European Member, so to speak, is regarded as the senator with greater prestige than is enjoyed by the mere congressman, the ordinary Westminster Member.
  I am in favour of the PR system because I believe that the long-term direction of European affairs will be towards a regional Europe, and certainly towards a greater strengthening of the regions by means of devolution in Britain and various other countries. However, this is a long-term process, and it would not worry me too much if the PR system were not adopted this time round.
  I turn to the subject of timing. It does not matter in the abstract whether direct elections are held this year, early next year, late next year or even in the 1980s. What matters is that, if after 20 years of argument and delay the Nine finally come together to agree on a date, it is vital that that date should be kept. If it is not kept in one nation, whatever good reason there may be within its Parliament, and if there is some slippage of three or six months, who is to say that there will not be further slippage in another nation for other good parliamentary reasons or, indeed, domestic reasons? The danger is not that we shall postpone the process for six months but that, by backing away from the timetable finally and painfully agreed between the Nine, it will lead to a distant postponement for as long as 20 years.

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  I disagree with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, who intervened earlier to say that it did not matter when the elections were held. I would add that, if there is any chance of delay in this country alone in holding elections on time, it will be essential for the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary immediately to agree a new joint date for elections to the European Assembly. I was glad to see that when that point was mentioned earlier both of my right hon. Friends nodded agreement. I hope that means that, if slippage appears to be taking place in Britain, an immediate attempt will be made to reach agreement with our EEC partners for a new date for European elections. I hope that there will be no need for postponement.
  I hope that all those who vote "Aye" on the Bill tomorrow will think carefully in Committee before lightly voting amendments or adopting tactics which may so easily delay the passage of the Bill, because that will mean that the elections cannot take place on time. The crucial issue is to have direct elections to the European Parliament and not to seek temporary or minor party advantages from the passage of the Bill.
  I assume that the Government are serious about passing the Bill and that, therefore, they will introduce at the beginning of next Session, when the Bill comes before us again, a timetable motion to facilitate its progress. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I trust that when that occurs the right hon. Member for Knutsford (Mr. Davies) will not be as coy as he was today and that the Opposition will also vote "Aye" when the guillotine motion comes before us.
  Despite the sparse attendance in the Chamber during most of this debate, I believe that this is a historic occasion. The approval of the Bill in principle will rank historically with British accession to the EEC and the referendum of 1975 as marking another decisive stage in the integration of Britain and Europe, an integration which has already virtually eliminated the danger of a recrudescence of the old internecine wars in Europe. That is why I shall be voting "Aye" tomorrow night with a glad heart.
  8.44 p.m.
  Mr. George Gardiner: I shall not take up the detailed points made by
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  the hon. Member for Belper (Mr. MacFarquhar). I think that my points of agreement or disagreement will become clear as I develop my own argument.
  However, I shall comment on the hon. Gentleman's desire for a guillotine motion on the Bill when it is brought before us again next Session. That is several hurdles away.
  I remind the hon. Gentleman that when judging any guillotine motion hon. Members, particularly Opposition Members, must have regard not only to the Bill being guillotined but to whatever the guillotine is making way for. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to strengthen his argument, I suggest that he has a word with his right hon. Friends and makes sure that no other legislation is presented in the next Session that would make it difficult for us to abide by his wishes in that respect. However, that is not the argument that I seek to develop.
  This is a very peculiar debate. We call it a Second Reading debate but we know that it will not lead to any meaningful Committee stage or any remaining parliamentary procedures this Session. It is not surprising, therefore, that most of us choose to define the debate and the vote tomorrow as being purely about principle, and we feel considerable freedom in defining what that principle is. We see it as a vote on the principle of whether there should be direct elections to the European Assembly. I and many other hon. Members will vote in accordance with that belief.
  I can well understand the arguments of other hon. Members who look at the Bill, see the way in which weighting is given within it to a novel electoral system, and regard tomorrow's vote as a vote on the principle of a system. It will not be altogether surprising if some hon. Members take that view, but I shall not.
  The question of timing runs through all these arguments. It is sad that we should be having our first discussions on the Second Reading of the Bill at this stage when we should have made a start so very long before. My hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Surrey (Sir A. Royle) referred to a period of 18 months, but in an even shorter span we had a commitment in the Queen's Speech and a report from a Select Committee. There was nothing to stop the Government

  1361
  bringing in a Bill earlier. The Bill could have passed through the House and the other place by now if the Government had adopted the suggestion of starting the Boundary Commission process. That opportunity has been lost and we are now considering this measure belatedly.
  That being so, it is unacceptable that we should weigh up the Bill and the proposed electoral system contained in it under any shadow of a deadline. I rather welcomed the remarks of the Prime Minister in this regard this afternoon—something that I am not often able to do. The right hon. Gentleman's remarks probably require more careful study, but as I understood them they indicated that we were unlikely to be held to the May-June deadline if that would circumscribe greatly the choice that the House wished to make on an electoral system.
  I believe that when we look at the Bill we shall quickly realise that we have missed that deadline already. Right hon. Members on the Government Front Bench have said this afternoon that we have effectively missed the deadline if we wish to go ahead with 81 separately-defined constituencies recommended by the Boundary Commissions. I think that we have also missed that target date if we choose the proposed regional list system with proportional representation.
  Is it really considered likely that the Bill will pass through all its parliamentary stages by next March? That is probably the earliest that it could be achieved. Is it then suggested that we should have two months in which to set up our election machinery and choose candidates? Presumably regions will be given some democratic say in selecting who goes on to their lists.
  Is all that to be done in two months, including the mounting of an election campaign and explaining the new system to the electorate? Of course, it cannot be done. I think it would be wise of us to recognise now that May-June next year is no longer a feasible target. We have the time in this House to work out the system which suits us all and the country best, and also to get away from the argument as to who will benefit most under which system.
  I have no doubt that in an election under a simple majority vote system con-
  1362
  ducted now the Labour Party would suffer very badly. Any reading of the opinion polls or other indicators suggests this. But if these elections are pushed a little further into the future it becomes a much more open question. I should certainly not claim that any particular pattern of voting support is permanent or constant. By getting away from the obsession with the May-June deadline, we shall get into the clear on that argument as well.
  Some of my hon. Friends have sought to establish that the question whether we should have direct elections—the issue of principle on which most of us will be voting tomorrow evening—and the question of the method to be employed are totally separate questions. With respect, I beg to differ from that argument. The two are not totally separate, and in a number of regards they are bound up together. Those of us who have always advocated direct elections to the European Assembly wish those elections to be held—particularly the first time in this country—in a manner which commands the maximum of public understanding, the maximum of public support and the maximum of public participation in them.
  For this reason particularly, I strongly urge that we should go for the familiar system of simple majority voting, otherwise I am afraid that the criticism, which has increased over recent months, of our membership of the Community would be given added fuel. People would be presented with a system that was totally foreign to them—an alien system. They would be convinced that it had been foisted on them by the Commission or by someone else in Brussels, even though we in our stupidity had chosen it here. The cause of Europe and of the direct elections to the European Assembly would, I submit, suffer in consequence.
  There is a second argument. When advocating these elections, many of us have always stressed that what we want is for people to have their own representative in the European Assembly—the man or woman to whom they can go to put their case and have their interests considered, either at the pre-legislation stage or thereafter in the European Assembly.
  That is very important to people in this country, because that is the electoral

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  tradition here. Indeed, it is a very honourable tradition. It is one that has maintained the two oldest democracies in the world, in this country and in the United States of America. I will not bow to those who say that we really should not allow ourselves to be an odd man out in Europe simply because our European partners, for reasons which are very sensible for them, have found it convenient to adopt a different system and because they have traditions which are different from ours. I respect theirs. I believe that we have a right to ask them also to respect ours. I believe that, with explanation, they would be only too ready to do so.
  Furthermore, this is an argument which will go on beyond the first round, because there will then be considerable discussion between us on what is to be the best common system if we are to have one. I should wish a very strong element of single Member representation to be retained in whatever emerges from that.
  There is a third argument which the Leader of the Liberal Party touched on earlier this afternoon. He mentioned an argument that I have advanced elsewhere in this connection. That is the great fear which I have in the regional list system as proposed in the Bill of the power of patronage which it confers on the central party machines.
  For reasons which many will argue in this House, we are to have representatives sent to the European Assembly drawing salaries in the region of £25,000 a year or more. I am not entering into the argument as to whether that is the right figure, but it is the consequence of joining any Assembly with European partners who are used to that level of parliamentary salary in their own national institutions. They will not accept anything much below that figure. Think, in British terms, what a great weapon this puts in the hands of central party machines when they come to drawing up the lists of favoured candidates for the different regions. One has there, in one's gift, in many cases a guaranteed five-year salary of £25,000 a year-plus, at low tax rates and with comparable expense allowances.
  That is a very powerful weapon of patronage that is being put into central
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  hands. It will be only too easy towards the end of a five-year term, if one of the Members of the European Assembly is inclined to step out of line, to start leaning on him and say "Of course, it will be very difficult. The list is being drawn up soon. We would like to see you on it, chum, but it will be very difficult unless you obey the crack of the whip."
  The Leader of the Liberal Party said that this was no different from what happened now, and he cited the example of a former hon. Member of this House who represented Lincoln. But that bears out what I am saying because, without entering into arguments on what happened in Lincoln, for one reason or another the hon. Member who represented that seat lost the confidence of his local "selectorate". It was not an edict from above which said "You will not stand as Labour candidate for Lincoln in the next election." Whatever trouble there was, it began locally for that hon. Member. That is a safeguard which many of us here have.
  Many in the House—this is the experience of a great number of my colleagues who have been in this place for far longer than I—have had their disputes and differences with own Front Benches, but they have known that they can go back on their own local organisation and their own selectorate and justify to them what they have done.
  That admittedly is on a basis of one constituency as we understand it, and as proposed under the simple majority system we would have constituencies made up of some eight or so seats. But one would still have a local body to whom the Members of the European Parliament could go to to justify what he had done, and he would not need at every stage to justify himself to his central party machine.
  Mr. Rifkind: My hon. Friend is implying that under the Bill as it now stands it would be the central party machine that would decide who was on the regional list, but surely it is much more likely that, if there were the regional list system proposed in the Bill, it would be the regional party machine, which would be a smaller operation, which might or might not be worse, and which would be more local to individual candidates.
  Mr. Gardiner: I cannot accept that it would be a smaller operation. It would become a much bigger one. I have drawn a comparison between a selectorate in one constituency and a larger, more amorphous selectorate in a group of eight constituencies. It would become bigger and more amorphous still if one worked up to the regions. Neither is it the case on either side of the House that the established party organisation exactly corresponds to the regions proposed.
  Mr. Budgen: May I reinforce the point that my hon. Friend has made about the even greater dangers of the local hierarchy having the right to appoint regional representatives? At least, if it were decided by the party organisation at the centre, there would be 20 to 30 people making the decision, whereas if it were decided at a regional level there would be four or five people who could be easily squared with perhaps a couple of knighthoods and two CBEs.
  Mr. Gardiner: I take my hon. Friend's point. I do not know whether any party would set up such a small number of people to make the selection, but I can see great danger along the line. I return to my basic point about the weapon of patronage that could be far more easily exercised and wielded from the centre, and that is dangerous. It would, indirectly, be dangerous to the House also, and that I am not prepared to contemplate.
  Mr. Marten: If the local association, or whatever body, started behaving like that because a Member of the European Assembly had done the wrong thing or voted the wrong way, it would be in direct conflict with Article 4(1) of the Council's decision on direct elections:
  "Representatives shall vote on an individual and personal basis. They shall not be bound by any instructions and shall not receive a binding mandate".
  If the local association did that, the selectors could be taken to the European Court, which, I am sure, would declare them to be out of order.
  Mr. Gardiner: That is an intriguing argument but I doubt that it would prevent the kind of leaning process that I have described and I doubt whether in some party caucus it would count a great deal to start waving the provisions to
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  which my hon. Friend has just drawn our attention.
  As an hon. Member from the South-East, I must object strongly to the proposed regional groupings, even on the regional list system. I can see that it may make certain sense to have a region defined as Northern England with Cleveland, Cumbria, Durham, Northumbria and Tyne and Wear having five seats. Rather more justifiable is the region defined as East Anglia containing Cambridgeshire, Norfolk and Suffolk with three seats. However, it is a constitutional abortion to bring into the South-East Bedfordshire, Berkshire, Buckinghamshire, Essex, Hampshire, Hertfordshire, the Isle of Wight, Kent, Oxfordshire, Surrey, East Sussex and West Sussex with 14 Members—and forming it into a thick girdle around Greater London, which would have 10 seats. If one wishes to establish regions in which the people will be able to have some kind of identification with their elected Members, one must do something different from that.
  We already see the dangers of regional democratic organisation when we look at the GLC. If one stops any Londoner in the street and asks who is his GLC member, I doubt whether one in 10 would be able to answer. That is what happens in merely Greater London. Here it is proposed that we should have 14 Members, elected through this peculiar system, representing this vast band of the country and this large population. That is just not acceptable.
  The Prime Minister usefully began to ease us away from the time constraints hanging over us if we choose one system rather than another. My broad conclusion from our debate is that it is far more important to get our system right—to get a system that will command popular support and obtain easy popular participation —than to rush through a system that we have never subjected to proper scrutiny and which accordingly would do grave harm to the European cause.
  I shall have no hesitation in voting on the point of principle in favour of a measure to produce direct elections to a European Parliament and nothing more. However, if the Bill keeps anything like its present shape when it is reintroduced in the autumn, I can see only grave danger ahead for it.
  9.6 p.m.
  Mr. Arthur Blenkinsop: The hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Gardiner) intimated that he had been in the House only a relatively short time. It feels very much longer.
  The Bill is important, although I think that there is profound disinterest in the country about whether our delegation to Strasbourg is directly elected or, as at present, nominated and therefore indirectly elected. The implications of the Bill are important. Its rejection would be seen as casting further doubt on the sincerity of the intentions of this House to remain in Europe after the country had made its decision only a short time ago.
  I support the Bill as confirmation of our wish to work with our colleagues in Europe and, above all, of the wish of hon. Members on the Government Benches to work in co-operation with Social Democrats in Europe for common objectives that cannot be achieved in other ways. I pay tribute to the work of my hon. Friends in Strasbourg and elsewhere who have been seeking to get agreement and understanding with our colleagues in many European countries on a whole range of issues on which we have deep concern and wide differences of approach. On the common agricultural policy, for instance, I welcome the fact that my hon. Friends have done a great deal to try to understand the position of the French and other nations and to try to get them to understand our position. I hope that in that way we shall move towards the amendment of the elements of the CAP that are most distressing and damaging to us. That is how some headway can be made.
  Directly elected representatives would be that much stronger in such regular interchanges. I have heard much criticism about the strengthening of the Assembly, but I should welcome such a move. I do not share the view of some of my hon. Friends that this is an automatic step towards federation. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Derby, North (Mr. Whitehead) that we are more likely to move towards some form of confederation. Nevertheless, a strengthened Assembly would be of real value against the danger of having too much power in the hands of Commissioners or the Council of Ministers.
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  From both points of view I welcome the purposes that are enshrined in the Bill. It seems that those of my hon. Friends who are attacking those purposes and some hon. Members who have spoken against it from the Opposition Benches are seeking a completely unreal restoration of the United Kingdom's power position of the past and the disposal of economic power that we then possessed. Sooner or later we must wake up to the fact that those days are past. To my mind the realities insist that we exert our influence through Europe and do not neglect that opportunity.
  I dislike the attempt that is made in some areas of this place, and sometimes in the country, to impose responsibility upon the Common Market for all the difficulties and failures that we suffer. Although we recognise that many absurdities and weaknesses are enshrined in some of the practices of the Common Market, it is equally clear that we shall never cure our own problems if we try to use the Common Market as an excuse for weaknesses in ourselves that we must face ourselves.
  It is dangerous to try to maintain that all increases in food prices are due entirely to Common Market action. Those who take that line would face a severe awakening, I believe, if they had their way and we were to come out of the Common Market. I believe that we should find that world prices have changed. The bargaining situation that we would face would be very different from that which existed in the days of our ancient past.
  I do not feel strongly about the form of direct elections. The regional list system has some natural attractions, and not only in a party sense. It seems that the representations that are likely to be made to those who are our representatives will come less from individual electors and far more from the representatives of organisations, of industry, trade unions, local authorities and many other bodies. For that purpose it seems that a regional basis of representation is solid and sound. For my part that would be a natural attraction to the passage of the Bill.
  I share the view of many of my hon. Friends that it is important that the Bill is passed with relative speed. Our Government have given an undertaking that

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  this measure will go through. We should live up to that undertaking.
  9.14 p.m.
  Mr. Nick Budgen: As my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr. Gardiner) said, there are two main questions to be considered in this debate. The first is the objective of instituting direct elections to a European Assembly. The second is the means chosen, namely, proportional representation by a regional list system. My position may be wrong, but it is simple. I am opposed both to the objective and to the means. I have no difficulty in deciding that tomorrow I shall vote against the Bill.
  In my general approach to the European Community I share the general attitude put forward so well by my neighbour —my hon. Friend the Member for Hales-owen and Stourbridge (Mr. Stokes). I have always been a supporter of the European ideal, because I believe that Europe should be an alliance of nation States, not a union, and certainly not a federal union. I hoped most of all that the EEC would concentrate primarily upon foreign affairs. I believed that ultimately it might well have an important function in defence matters.
  In foreign affairs, I should have hoped that the kind of EEC that I should like to see would have had an important role to play in solving, for instance, the Cyprus problem.
  In defence matters, it may be that in our lifetime we shall see the final withdrawal of American troops from the Continent of Europe. In that event, the EEC may have a role to play.
  I do not wish to see the Community fritter away its strength on activities in which no Government should engage. Indeed, I thought that a good example of the way in which politicians are prepared to pass the buck to or try to saddle the European Community with functions for which neither it nor, indeed, any Government is suited is to be found in the Prime Minister's speech on 29th March 1976 when, as Foreign Secretary, he said:
  "I want to see the Community, which is constantly evolving, concentrating on some of the real issues of importance. I press it, apart from this matter, to consider the prob-
  1370
  lem of unemployment in its European context. We know what the future is likely to bring. We know what the situation will be. How can the European Community help to overcome the problem of unemployment? Ought it not to be looking at the nature of unemployment in the Community, whether it is cyclical or structural; to what extent it is structural; to what extent trading policy should be modified; to what extent industrial restructuring should take place to stimulate investment; and how competition policy affects declining industries?—[Official Report, 29th March 1976; Vol. 908, c. 917.]
  Plainly, the Prime Minister—Foreign Secretary as he then was—did not have in mind many of his son-in-law's splendid lectures on the difficulty of reconciling union monopoly power with the 1945 commitment to full—I should argue over-full—employment. The Prime Minister is typical of those who wish to foist on to the European idea functions of government that no Government and no Parliament can sustain.
  Most of all, I am opposed to the objective of instituting direct elections to the European Assembly for the reasons so eloquently put forward by the hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Mr. Gould). I agree with him that the essence of the argument is the loss of sovereignty through the way in which the institution of direct elections will rob this Parliament of its supremacy. It is important not only for this institution but because this institution is the expression of our nationhood. In my view, the hon. Gentleman was right to regret the potential subordination of this Parliament to any form of federal or incipiently federal organisation in Europe.
  The hon. Gentleman was also right to point to the near certainty that direct elections will lead to an increase in the power of the Assembly, from that to an increase in the power of the Commission and necessarily—for it is the other side of the coin—to a reduction in the power of the Council of Ministers—Ministers who are directly responsible to our national Parliament—and to a reduction in the power of this Parliament. For those reasons, I have no difficulty in voting against the Bill.
  I hope that my many right hon. and hon. Friends who have been fellow travellers with me, if that is not too offensive an expression, in supporting the European ideal will consider two propositions which often occur in their

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  speeches, for I believe them to be contradictory propositions. The first is the argument that we have signed the treaty and therefore we must carry out every detail of the treaty. The second proposition is that the Community is an evolving relationship. If it is that simple and we have signed the treaty and we are bound by every jot and tittle that have emerged from the EEC since it was formed, why are we bothering to consider the Bill?
  It is plain from Article 138(3) that this is a preliminary matter. We must have another go at this constitutional problem, because it was ordered—I do not say that offensively—by our European bosses when the Assembly was established that the Assembly should draw up proposals for direct elections in accordance with procedures that were to apply to all member States. That means that when we have been through the agony of two years of discussion we shall still not have done enough. We shall have to adopt a uniform proposal for the whole of the EEC.
  If we consider these two contradictory propositions, how do we apply them to the extension of the Community? There are Community documents which suggest that any nation State that conforms to the basic criteria of democracy is entitled to be admitted to the Community. This would mean that we are bound to allow Greece, Spain, Portugal and, ultimately, Turkey into the Community. Do we want the Community to be changed from being one that is primarily directed towards the English Channel and the Atlantic to one that is primarily centred on the Mediterranean? If it is an evolving Community, we in this country are entitled to take a broadly Gaullist view.
  Mr. Jim Spicer: My hon. Friend the Member for Wolver-hampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen) said at the beginning of his speech that he accepts a European attitude and conforms to that in a much wider form than the narrow confines of the European Community. He now seems to be making the opposite case and asking whether it is right for the House to restrict itself in this way. He seems to be saying that we should go beyond these confines. Is my hon. Friend a European in the broad sense of the word or is he not? In the last 48 hours the Community has accepted that we should establish links with the Nordic Council and ask it to join us.
  Mr. Budgen: I am hoping that the European Community will evolve primarily as an alliance and a force in foreign affairs. I am hoping that it will give up many of its more detailed functions and bureaucratic interference, particularly in the free market for agricultural produce—although there is no free market for agricultural produce—and the method by which it bodges and botches up a totally rigged market. Now that we are in the Community we are entitled to do our level best at every stage to say what we believe to be the ideal towards which we are progressing.
  We need not worry every time about whether everybody agrees with us. We need not worry about the moral blackmail of being out of step with Europe. We should take no notice of those who say "Will you not feel terribly ashamed if you do not have elections at the same time as everyone else? Will you not feel awful when your European Whip says that you are not representing a democratic country?" As a democratic nation we might be a shade more robust than that. We might be able to say that we are good Europeans but that we have a different concept of what Europe should seek to attain.
  I suggest, therefore, that unless we allow the European Communities to evolve slowly, by a process of no doubt very uneasy haggling, negotiation and renegotiation, they will finally break up, because at present the highly formal structure of the European constitution is typical of the Continental countries' predilection for a written constitution which, at the time that it is created, seems ideal to deal with every situation that man can envisage but which inevitably is found to be defective in the face of changing conditions.
  We in this country, on the other hand, have a preference for a largely unwritten constitution, with the enormous advantage that it can be changed for the evolving circumstances with which we in this nation State have to deal.
  Of the two contradictory propositions, I would ask my European friends to recognise most of all that the doctrine that the EEC is an evolving and developing entity is the more important. If it is not allowed to evolve and develop, sometimes by shedding one function,

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  sometimes even by reducing the powers of one part of its constitution, it will die. It will die because of its absurdities. Evolution and change do not always mean expansion, or the addition of more civil servants and bureaucrats. They may mean a reduction in powers. They may mean that the European ideal is concentrated on perhaps only one issue in one year. But if the Community is to survive it must change and concentrate on essentials and not upon mere bureaucracy.
  9.27 p.m.
  Mr. Donald Anderson: That very written constitution to which the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen) referred is one of the safeguards against the expansion of the powers of the Community, which the hon. Gentleman says that he favours. It is surely this that the Gaullists in France have latched on to following the ruling of the constitutional court to seek to limit the competence or the willingness of their own country to limit the powers which might accrue following direct elections.
  The hon. Member talked in a somewhat contradictory way of being in favour of the European ideal and yet seeking in some way to limit that European ideal to questions of foreign affairs and defence. Surely he would have to concede that the range of powers of any Foreign Office or the competence of any Foreign Minister now extends far beyond the narrow foreign policy that the hon. Gentleman seems to be seeking to define and includes questions of foreign trade and industrial questions which are far wider than the chancellories of Europe concerned themselves with in the past.
  Inevitably, in international negotiations on the foreign trade side there is bound to be, therefore, an overflow into fields of industrial, economic and social policy. It is wholly unrealistic of the hon. Gentleman to seek to define foreign and defence policy in quite such a narrow way.
  I personally shall vote for the Second Reading of the Bill. I am struck very forcibly by the fact that those who are against direct elections are those very people who were against our accession as such. The actions that we now see and
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  the speeches that we have heard during this debate have been in part a rearguard action by those who have never wanted to accept our accession to the European Community and will seek to put every possible obstacle in the way of the development of our relationship with that Community, in such a way, indeed, that they will seek to deny to this country many of the benefits which could accrue to us from our accession.
  If the Bill did not receive a Second Reading, that would be seen symbolically, both here and in Europe, as a rejection of our accession per se and a refusal of this Parliament to accept the endorsement in the referendum of our membership of the Community. It is quixotic that those who claim to be so concerned about safeguarding our liberties in this House seem unconcerned about extending our democratic control over the Community, which is gaining greater competences of its own, and concentrate solely on a means of control via the Council of Ministers, with all the problems which my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing) is, properly, quick to point out.
  I see no necessary connection between direct elections and an extension of powers of the Community, which the Gaullists in France have been quick to point out. Even if the powers of the European Assembly were to remain much as they are, I should favour importing a greater democratic element into control of the Communities.
  I accept too, as I think do most hon. Members who also attend the European Assembly, that the work load is becoming increasingly intolerable for one Member to carry out, both here and in Europe, and that that is bound to have an adverse effect both on his contribution in the House and on his relationship with his own constituents.
  The fear of federalism, which has been mentioned by many of those who are against direct elections, is in my view unfounded—particularly so now, because we are at the dawn of the enlargement of the Community. I accept some of the points made by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West about the possible incompatibility of Greece with what one expects will come from the Community. I believe that it was

  1375
  Metternich who said that Asia began at the Landstrasse Hauptstrasse from Vienna. The more that the Community is enlarged to include countries of both different traditions and different rates of economic development, the more impossible of realisation will become the wilder dreams of some of the founding fathers of Europe, and of their sons—whether they be economic and monetary union or anything else.
  I therefore assume that most of those who are sceptical about the ever-closer union of the European peoples, as foreseen in the Preamble to the Treaty of Rome, becoming a federation will welcome the fact of enlargement because the addition of those extra, frequently lame, members is bound to hobble the progress of Europe in a federal direction. In any event, I can see no real prospect of the federalist bogey coming into effect.
  There are two considerable problems of representation, particularly the difficulty of ensuring the link between the Member and his constituents, whatever form of electoral system is to be adopted —something that is very much on the lines of our own system. In what way, for example, given the fact that the European Community is largely now a European agricultural community, will people from our industrial areas and inner cities relate to what is happening in Brussels unless there is a substantial transformation of the priorities of the Community? Just as there is a great yawn in the country at the moment about the prospect of direct elections, I can see it being difficult, whether the elections be in May-June 1978 or whenever, to excite the interest of people on the estates in my industrialised constituency since the Community impinges on them, they would argue, save in food prices, relatively little. On the other hand, one can see that those representing agricultural constituencies will be lobbied by their farming interests, because Brussels has a clear role in agriculture.
  The links with the House of Commons will also have to be looked at very carefully. Whether the issue could be linked with reform of the Second Chamber I know not, but the prospect at the moment is dark and unsatisfactory.
  I am in two minds about the voting system. I accept that the first-past-the-
  1376
  post system is likely to lead to considerable unfairness, particularly to the Liberal Party, and that is a very cogent point. Probably I shall vote nevertheless for the first-past-the-post system, because, as we will have to harmonise by the time of the second set of elections, I am reluctant to impose upon our people two unfamiliar systems in successive elections. It is unlikely that the complex system now proposed will ultimately be accepted in harmonisation.
  My last point concerns the representation that has been offered to Wales. I do not accept the Welsh National Party's view. It states that, in comparison with Luxembourg, Wales, which is one-eighth the size of Luxembourg, is to have two fewer seats. That accepts the idea that Wales is or should be a self-governing country with the same representation as that of Luxembourg. However, it is significant that among Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, Wales is the only one whose representation of seats is rounded down in terms of the percentage of population.
  For example, Northern Ireland, with 2·1 per cent. of the population, is to have three seats, and Scotland will have seven. They are rounded up. Wales, with 41 per cent. of the population, is to have four seats. That must be accepted on the basis of a strict mathematical formula, but in terms of representation it will prove very difficult for the Boundary Commissioners, given that our four rural counties, Clwyd, Dyfed, Gwynedd, and Powys, account for two-thirds of the land area but only about 36 per cent. of the population. Yet, if they are to get two seats, with the other two seats given to the more populous Glamorgan and Gwent, there will be a great disproportion of population. It should be possible for Wales to have two seats for the rural areas and three for the industrial areas, as a rough proportion, if it were accorded five seats. I ask the Government to think carefully about the representation in Wales and, from the standpoint of effective representation, increasing the number of seats in Wales from four to five.
  9.38 p.m.
  Mr. Douglas Hurd: On this side of the House there has been pretty general support for the principle

  1377
  of the Bill, but it has been shot through with a strong sense of grievance about the way in which the matter has been handled up to now. My hon. Friends have made the point, and I would not have returned to it now had it not been for the Prime Minister's remarks in the debate which seemed to me to be crafty but untenable. He managed to scatter a large number of misconceptions in a remarkably short time. He said "We have procedures which take a long time." That is true. It is precisely because of that that the Select Committee worked so hard a year ago and urged at the end of last summer that there should be a Bill, not in the spill-over of 1977 but in the spill-over of 1976. The Prime Minister spoke today of the need of time for persuasion as though he had spent his time stumping around the country advocating direct elections. The fact is that the delay has been for the sake of delay, in the hope that the difficulties would go away.
  As so often happens, delay has in fact increased the difficulties, with the result, as many of my hon. Friends have pointed out, that we are drifting into a dangerous situation with the Bill. It is often now discussed in terms of the Lib-Lab pact because, unfortunately, that is the way that political issues are so often discussed. It may be true that the Liberals played some part in bringing the Bill actually to birth, but it is a sad commentary that it needed the Liberals to get part of the Government to fulfil an undertaking which the whole Government gave at the time of the Queen's Speech in November.
  What is certain is that from now on, when we are concerned with voting on the Bill and its clauses, Liberal votes are really irrelevant. The Bill will carry with the votes of my right hon. and hon. Friends, or it will not carry. Yet up to now no care or concern has been taken of our views and our genuine judgments and preferences on this matter. The Government must change their habit of working with regard to this matter. If they leave out of account the kind of views expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr. Gardiner), they are running into grave difficulties. A change of tack and habit is now required if the Bill is to carry.
  1378
  The dangers are obvious. The first is the one set out by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bridlington (Mr. Wood), that when it comes to the point the House will be told that it does not have an effective choice. If Ministers begin to use that argument, they are in for very severe difficulties over the Bill.
  There is the wider danger that we shall simply stumble into chaos over the Bill, as we did over the Scotland and Wales Bill, under the leadership of a Leader of the House for whom chaos almost seems to be the natural element in which he swims. To reduce this danger, I suggested during the speech of the right hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. Steel) that it would be sensible for the House to have an opportunity this month to indicate by a vote what system it actually preferred. The right hon. Gentleman properly replied that it would be wrong to vote on the system before we voted on the principle. That was not what I was suggesting.
  If the Bill is read a Second time, it will be perfectly proper for the Government to find the means of enabling the House to vote on the system before we go away for the Summer Recess. At least the Government can then draft a Bill knowing what system the House will prefer, and possibly the Boundary Commissions, which are already established by statute, can turn their minds mean-while to the kinds of problems which arise. The difficulties about this have been carefully rehearsed, but I hope that the Ministers who will reply tomorrow will examine sympathetically the suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Surrey (Sir A. Royle).
  I turn to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten). There can be no need for my hon. Friend to defend his right to maintain his views. It would be impertinent for anyone to challenge his right after all this time, and it would certainly be entirely pointless. I hope, however, that my hon. Friend will not continue to use the argument that everyone who supports the Bill must be federalists or crypto-federalists. There is an ample and conclusive case for those of us who are not federalists to support the Bill.
  My hon. Friend mentioned the polls. I knew that someone would, and my

  1379
  hon. Friend is best qualified to do so. It is not surprising that the European Community will have to carry a share of the general disillusionment which is widespread. There is no lack of people, including people on the Government Front Bench, who wish to increase the share of the burden by the Community. I am sure that my hon. Friend will recognise and rejoice in the fact that the European Community is a great deal more popular than the Government. Perhaps he will also observe that opinion polls show that people like the idea of direct elections to the European Parliament—in other words, they favour the principle of the Bill.
  Of course, it is true that people are not chatting about it enthusiastically in pubs and on street corners up and down the country. It is not a matter for great debate in the High Street. However, when it is put to people and they are asked whether they would prefer an elected or nominated Parliament, they usually reply that they would prefer it to be elected. That is a fairly admirable and basic instinct which I would have thought my hon. Friend would support.
  Mr. David Steel: Since the hon. Member is citing opinion polls, would he also add that the majority of people would like proportional representation as well?
  Mr. Hurd: That is the danger of referring to polls at all. But I did not start it.
  The core of this debate rightly has been the powers of the directly-elected Parliament. The hon. Member for Newham, South (Mr Spearing) always is able and always will be able to produce quotations which show that many people who support direct elections, particularly in Europe, do so because they believe that they are a step towards federalism.
  What the hon. Member is increasingly unable to show is how a directly-elected European Parliament will get the additional powers which these people believe it should have. I think that this is most unlikely, and recent events in France, Denmark and this country make it particularly unlikely, that additional powers will be granted in the foreseeable future. I believe that this will be the next big debate on Europe. But, if it is wise, the European Parliament will not push this for five or 10 years. The
  1380
  answer that this House will give in years to come will depend not on what we say now but on what happens in Europe and the feelings about Europe between now and then.
  Mr. Spearing: Does not the hon. Member realise that many of my hon. Friends are saying that even with the existing powers there can be a drift in this direction? Take, for example, the Channel Tunnel. Suppose that the Assembly decided to put in or take out moneys for that scheme. The decision would be more likely to be made there than in the national Parliaments.
  Mr. Hurd: If the hon. Member believes that, he will believe anything. That is a most unreal preposition. It is quite unreal to believe that by putting something into the budget the European Parliament could decide on the Channel Tunnel. We are light years away from that situation.
  The hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Mr. Gould) produced a much more sophisticated analysis of this. He said that it was not so much a matter of legal powers but of increasing influence. But the influence of the directly-elected Parliament lies in its power to make Commissioners and Ministers uncomfortable and to place burdens on them. That is absolutely correct. We have argued that on many occasions, and I think that it is a good thing.
  This House has enormous powers, even though some of us are worried about the decline of its influence. We are not properly organised—in fact we organise ourselves poorly—and we are very resistant to any changes that would increase our influence. The European Parliament may not organise itself well and increase its influence. We do not know. But it is on that question and not on the question of legal powers that its influence will depend.
  The EEC is a partnership, as was made clear by my right hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery), who answered in advance many of the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen).
  The system of the Community accepted in this House and in the referendum is not a federal system, nor is it a loose system of alliances as described so glowingly by my hon. Friend. It is a partner-

  1381
  ship in which decisions covered by the treaties are taken on a European basis— proposed by the Commission, approved by the Council of Ministers—in which there is a national veto, and then executed by the Commission. It is not a federal procedure, but it requires an elected Parliament which is able to do things at the centre of the Community—such tasks as cross-examining Commissioners, which national Parliaments cannot do. It will not replace but supplement and complete work which we in this House and the other national Parliaments will have to go on doing in checking and stimulating our representatives on the Council of Ministers. That seems to me to be the democratic case under the present Community system for direct elections, and it has nothing to do with federalism. This is the principle of which most of us on these Benches are enthusiastically in favour.
  There is another point I should mention, and it concerns the influence and strength of our country in Europe and elsewhere. This was the starting point of the speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Halesowen and Stourbridge (Mr. Stokes) which was powerful and compelling. It was a starting point which everyone on the Opposition Benches will probably share—namely, a concern for our national standing, our self-respect and the respect in which we are held by others, including the keeping of our obligations.
  In the last week or so I have visited three other Community capitals and I have heard many people on a much humbler level than that of Foreign Secretary or Prime Minister but at levels at which occasionally one gains a clear glimpse of what people feel is going on. It is hard to overstate the harm that we have done ourselves in the Community in the past year or two. I do not wish to attribute blame, and, indeed, it would be silly to attempt to do so. But if anybody believes that some of our Ministers have been serving our national interests—and here I am not talking of European interests—by the way in which they have been carrying on, such people should travel a bit and listen a bit.
  It will be a long road back. It will be a long road before we can make progress towards a common foreign
  1382
  policy which my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West favours, and before we can build up again our strength and influence in Europe. I believe that a powerful majority for the Bill in the vote tomorrow night will be an essential first step along that road.
  Debate adjourned.—[Mr. Bates.]
  Debate to be resumed tomorrow.

PETITION

  Disabled Persons (Mobility)
  9.53 p.m.
  Mr. A. J. Beith: With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I wish to present a petition regarding mobility for the disabled, signed by 123 of my constituents in various parts of the parliamentary constituency of Berwick-upon-Tweed. I ask you to direct the Clerk to read the petition to the House.
  The CLERK OF THE HOUSE read the petition which was as follows:
  To the Honourable the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled.
  Whereby the statement by the Secretary of State for Social Services on 23rd July 1976 on mobility policy for the disabled causes your humble petitioners great concern in that it removes the assurance of continued independent mobility from those severely disabled persons now driving invalid tricycles and condemns many new applicants for mobility assistance to be housebound as a result of the inadequate level of the mobility allowance, your humble petitioners pray that your honourable House call upon the Secretary of State for Social Services to promote policies and propose such necessary legislation as will:

  (a) Immediately guarantee a right of continued independent mobility to current invalid tricycle drivers when the supply of tricycles is exhausted, in order to allay their great anxiety for the future.

  (b) Restore immediately the option of a suitably adapted car or an invalid tricycle to new applicants for mobility assistance under the powers granted to the Secretary of State for Social Services by Section 33 of the Health Services and Public Health Acts 1968.

  (c) Actively promote projects to design and produce specialised vehicles which will enable an increasing number of severely disabled people to enjoy independent mobility; and yourselves enact the legislation.

  Further, your humble petitioners pray that your honourable House take all necessary steps to promote a total policy of mobility

  1383
  which will ensure that a choice is available to severely disabled between a mobility allowance set at a level which will enable the purchase and maintenance of appliances that they need, the issue of a specialised vehicle, or the issue of a suitably adapted car, which policy should be implemented with all possible urgency.
  And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray, etc.
  To lie upon the Table.

  AMBULANCE SERVICES (NORTHUMBERLAND)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Bates.]
  9.56 p.m.
  Mr. A. J. Beith: Having drawn the attention of the House to the problems of mobility of the disabled, I now seek to draw its attention to the problem of transport for seriously ill people and others who need ambulances. I am grateful for the opportunity to raise an issue that is causing great concern in my constituency, namely the proposal by the Northern Region Health Authority to close the ambulance stations in Alnwick and Belford and replace them with one station between the two towns.
  Until the last Conservative Government centralised the National Health Service under the guiding hand of the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) it would neither have been permissible nor necessary to raise in the House the question of the location of an ambulance station. Until that time, ambulance services were controlled by elected local authorities whose councillors were directly responsible to the local community for their decisions. In our case it would have been the Northumberland County Council, on which Alnwick and Belford have their own representatives. Now, however, our ambulance services throughout the whole of the North of England are controlled by one vast, undemocratic body, the Northern Region Health Authority. Not a single member of that authority lives in the Alnwick area—or anywhere else in my constituency—and in any case it is responsible not to the local electorate but to the Minister for its work. It is not his fault that the buck now stops with
  1384
  him—he inherited this crazy system. However, it is a fact. I put it to my hon. Friend that he has a responsibility to see that the wishes of the local community are not flouted by a remote and bureaucratic regional Health authority.
  The background to the situation is this: Alnwick, a town of 7,000 people, has a station with three ambulances manned by 11 men and a station officer. Also in Alnwick are the infirmary, a health centre and other clinics and surgeries. It is the centre for a relatively heavily populated area of my constituency, which also contains tow coal mines and several small factories.
  Fifteen miles to the North is the village of Belford, which is the centre for a very large area of more scattered population. Two ambulances are stationed there. The proposal of the regional health authority is that both these stations should be closed and replaced by one 24-hour station in a very isolated situation off the Al road between the two places at North Charlton, some seven miles north of Alnwick and eight miles south of Belford. The population in the immediate vicinity is tiny, and the roads in the area are such that larger centres of population along the coast, such as Seahouses and Beadnell, would gain no significant advantage at all from the new siting, and it is much further away from the collieries and from other population centres than is Alnwick.
  The proposal is misguided in the extreme, and has been greeted as such by responsible people in both communities. A group of Alnwick ambulancemen are quoted in the Northumberland Gazette as saying:
  "The Alnwick station is at present in the urban centre where the population density is the highest and is in close proximity to schools, collieries and industrial sites, where accidents can and do happen. To move the ambulances away from the population seems to us to be criminal."
  The doctors of Alnwick issued a joint statement giving it as their view
  "without reservation that there appears to be no logical justification for the adoption of such a proposal. We would therefore like to take this opportunity of wholeheartedly endorsing the views of the ambulancemen and to ensure them of our support against the implementation of the proposed scheme."—
  It being Ten o'clock, the motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Bates.]
  Mr. Beith: Similar opposition has been expressed by the community health council, Alnwick District Council, Alnwick Town Council and the National Union of Mineworkers, and large numbers of the public have expressed their opposition by backing a campaign against the proposal run by the local paper, the Northumberland Gazette. The county councillar for Belford, Mrs. Stephenson, said
  "We feel very strongly about this and no one seems to agree with the proposal."
  Indeed, it is very significant that no one, not even the regional health authority itself, has yet come up with a single positive argument in favour of the scheme. I shall come to the reason for its advancement in a moment. First, however, I would remind the House of its disadvantages. If the ambulances were stationed at North Charlton, they would be appreciably further from the centres of population, the hospitals and the high-risk installations they serve. From either Alnwick or Belford up to 15 minutes would be added to almost all journey times, which could be disastrous in an emergency. Delays could often be greater than that. The Al both north and south of North Charlton has steep banks which are badly affected in winter by snow and ice, and have been blocked for hours at a time in recent recollection, including last winter.
  In summer, as we know now to our cost, it is impossible even for an ambulance to overtake queues of holiday traffic, caravans and heavy lorries on many stretches of the Al, which has only a single carriageway in each direction. These delays would also affect relief ambulance crews driving out to the station from their homes in Alnwick or Belford to replace the duty crews if they were called out on an emergency. It is, of course, neither intended nor really practicable to build houses at North Charlton so that all the crews can live there. The cost of the scheme—particularly if houses are ever to be added to it—will be enormous.
  Why, then, has it been contemplated? The only reason so far advanced is that sites are no longer available for stations
  1386
  in Alnwick and Belford. It is true that the present ambulance station in Alnwick is owned by the district council and that the health authority has been asked to vacate it. It is also true that the old station at Belford was closed on the instructions of the Health and Safety Executive and that there is at present no covered accommodation for the ambulances at Belford. However, the district council has made it quite clear that there is no question of its forcing the ambulances to leave Alnwick. It is perfectly happy for them to stay until an alternative site can be found.
  I think that the Minister was inadvertently misinformed when he gave a Written Answer to a Question recently, when I asked him about the proposal. The answer he gave was:
  "I understand that it is one of a number of options being considered by the Northern Regional Health Authority due to premises at Belford and Alnwick being no longer available."—[Official Report, 28th June 1977; Vol. 934, c. 136.]
  I can understand that the Minister was advised to say that, but it is far from the case that premises could not be found. Although there have been difficulties with the present sites, I have no hesitation at all, knowing the area, in saying that a suitable site in Alnwick could be found. I know that both the council and local private landowners are very willing to co-operate in seeking a site in Alnwick. Indeed, I suspect that an ideal site could be made available. In Belford a local garage firm has offered a suitable bay in new premises which are being constructed, and other possibilities are also open.
  The site problems in both places are easily surmountable and in no way justify the North Charlton scheme. Why, then, is it under consideration at all? I can only surmise that somewhere in the administration of the regional health authority we have a "rationaliser" at work, who has seized the opportunity presented by the site question to plant a cross on a map with the same reckless enthusiasm as that which ran through the rest of the Health Service reorganisation. I hope the Minister will make it clear that this kind of desk-top rationalisation is not his policy and that he shares none of his predecessors' enthusiasm for amalgamation for its own sake.

  1387
  The regional health authority has climbed a few steps down within the last 10 days. Overwhelmed by the scale of local opposition, it has set up a special committee to consider the matter. Not one member of this committee comes from my constituency or anywhere near it—the nearest lives 25 miles south of Alnwick. However, if they approach the matter objectively I do not see that they can possibly support the new scheme.
  The chairman of the health authority has accused those of us who have opposed the scheme, including the local newspaper, of jumping the gun, because, he says, no final decision has been taken. I am sure that the Minister's experience on this sort of thing is the same as mine— if one does not jump the gun, it tends to go off and kill the victim. It is then too late to suggest that it might have been better not to have pulled the trigger at all.
  Things seem to have been much further advanced than the health authority is now admitting. In May its public relations officer told the Gazette that
  "the decision to leave the existing Alnwick ambulance station site is final and irrevocable ".
  He also said
  "You can only have one station. And we must cover both areas."
  He added that it was proposed to start work at North Charlton as soon as possible.
  Indeed, the authority applied for planning permission in respect of the North Charlton site in May, and it was that approach which sparked off the controversy. It had been known for some time before that the authority was considering the North Charlton scheme—this was admitted in a letter to me from the regional administrator in November last year—but, as the Alnwick doctors put it in their statement,
  "Our failure to respond earlier was born of the disbelief that such a proposal could ever have been taken seriously."
  It was the planning application which made everyone realise that the authority was perfectly serious about it, and protest became essential. Planning permission has not yet been given because the district council regards the North Charlton site as so unsuitable. I am very glad that the authority has retreated from its
  1388
  original position and indicated that it will seriously reconsider the whole question. I should like to believe that the outcome of such a reconsideration is a foregone conclusion, because the disadvantages of the North Charlton scheme are so obvious. However, large organisations do not always change their ideas very readily, so the case must be pressed even harder.
  I hope, therefore, that the Minister, with whom ultimate responsibility lies, will indicate two things to the regional health authority—first, that it should pay a great deal of regard to local opinion, particularly the opinions of those involved in running and using the health service at local level, whose views I have tried to express tonight; secondly, that he does not favour schemes of rationalisation which do not offer either positive and demonstrable advantages to the users of the health service or substantial economies to the taxpayer. I see no sign of either in this scheme. I am grateful to the Under-Secretary for looking into this matter, and my constituents will be even more grateful if he ensures that the result is a sensible decision based on local knowledge.
  10.7 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary for Health and Social Security (Mr. Eric Deakins): I am grateful to the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) for raising this subject. Perhaps I can first paint the general picture. Following the reorganisation of the National Health Service in 1974, responsibility for the provision of ambulance services was transferred from local authorities to health authorities. As with other Health Service buildings, the responsibility for the closure or resiting of ambulance stations therefore rests with the health authority. There are so many variations in circumstances, resources and needs affecting the location of individual ambulance stations that I am sure the hon. Member will agree that this matter is best left to local decision after appropriate consultation and discussion with those most directly affected.
  On the reorganisation, 124 services in England were regrouped into 45 services, and one of the problems was differing standards of service to the public. My Department therefore issued guidance to authorities in 1974 based on an independent study by the Cranfield Institute of

  1389
  Technology advising them of standard measures of service to patients for the ambulance service. My Department suggested standards of service for both emergency work, for example "999" calls, and non-emergency work—that is, the routine movement of patients to hospital. These standards set targets which all services should aim to realise.
  Thus, when considering the closure or resiting of ambulance stations the health authority should take these standards of service into account. For emergency work the standard is the total time taken to respond to an emergency call once notification has been received. The time laid down between notification and arrival at the scene for an area health authority ambulance service is 20 minutes in 95 per cent of the calls and eight minutes in 50 per cent. of calls. There is a further requirement to activate the ambulance— that is, to deploy the vehicle to the incident—in three minutes, again in 95 per cent. of the calls. While these standards are not binding, it is desirable for the ambulance service to achieve them, and it generally does. I should hope that in selecting an alternative site for an existing ambulance station an authority will seek to improve the ability of its ambulances to respond promptly to all calls for assistance wherever they originate within its area.
  In Northumberland, the Alnwick and Belford ambulance stations became the responsibility of the Northern Regional Health Authority, which administers the new Northumbria Ambulance Service. This includes services for the whole of the metropolitan county of Tyne and Wear as well as Northumberland. It would be helpful if I detailed these arrangements for Belford and Alnwick which were inherited at the time of NHS reorganisation from the Northumberland County Council.
  At Belford the facilities consisted of a garage, two ambulances and a staff of three full-time and one part-time ambulancemen, providing eight hours' continuous cover with sixteen hours' standby, when an on-call service operates. The garage has recently been demolished at the order of the Health and Safety Executive because it was considered unfit for human occupation and was in any case not a purpose-built
  1390
  garage but a converted stable. At present the ambulances are being left outside the local social services home, although arrangements are in hand for private garaging.
  At Alnwick there are 11 full-time staff with three ambulances to provide 16 hours' continuous cover with eight hours on standby. Alnwick District Council has, however, given the Northern Regional Health Authority formal notice to quit the existing premises with effect from 31st March because they are required for council use. Occupancy of the premises will be allowed to continue on a month-to-month basis, but it is not clear to the regional health authority, however, whether this facility will be afforded to it until such time as a new station can be provided.
  It is within this context of the difficulty of continuing to provide services from both these stations that the officers of the Northern Regional Health Authority have been examining the possibility of combining the Belford and Alnwick staff and vehicles in a single station. This is what has led to the consideration of a single site at North Charlton which is situated approximately mid-way between Alnwick and Belford. One of the potential advantages of the combination of the Belford and Alnwick staff and vehicles would be the ability to provide a full 24-hour manning service which might offer a better station as well as costing less than replacing two separate stations.
  I wish to stress, however, that this is merely one of the options that the Northern Regional Health Authority will be considering when it has more information about other sites which might be available. Once this information has been received, the Northern Regional Health Authority intends to prepare a consultative paper describing its proposals for replacing the services at Belford and Alnwick which circumstances outside its control have forced it to consider.
  The consultation paper will be prepared in the light of all the information that the Northern Regional Health Authority is assembling concerning the population to be served in and around Belford, some 2,000 people—and Alnwick—some 21,000 people—the distance between them by

  1391
  road, some 15 miles, and the communication links between them and other districts served in mid- and north Northumberland. There are also, as I am sure the hon. Member will agree, particular problems in providing ambulance services to rural communities, especially those which, as in this case, are liable to be isolated in bad winter weather conditions or have a relatively larger influx of summer visitors, as the hon. Gentleman pointed out. There is also to be considered the question of the practicality of a relatively rural site such as North Charlton for an ambulance station. The hon. Gentleman drew attention to the difficulties there.
  It is right to stress that the Northern Regional Health Authority is merely at the present lime looking into a number of options to solve the problems associated with the Belford and Alnwick ambulance stations. The proposal regarding the siting of an ambulance station at North Charlton became public because it was necessary for officers of the regional health authority to test the feasibility of the site as a possible option by making an outline planning application. Understandably, when this became known considerable concern was generated locally, leading to representations from local authorities, members of the public and local Press. Clearly it was of great concern to them that a decision might have been taken without adequate consultation.
  However, let me assure the hon. Member, as well as the members of the public in whose interests he is raising this subject, that there will be full and proper consultation before any decisions are reached. The procedure to be followed by a health authority before it can close or change the use of an ambulance station is no different from the procedure which has to be gone through before a health authority can close or change the use of any other type of Health Service premises. The example that we all know from Adjournment debates in recent months is the closure of hospitals.
  I assure hon. Members that health authorities do not make proposals or reach decisions on closures or change of use lightly. There are national and regional guidelines which serve as a framework within which to work. In
  1392
  following these guidelines they are expected to show much openness, consulting very widely.
  The Northumbria Ambulance Service is administered by the Northern Regional Health Authority and, therefore, that authority will be responsible for the consultation process. As I have already said, the authority is at present examining the possibility of combining the Belford and Alnwick ambulance staff and vehicles at one single station. I am assured that as soon as this examination is complete a consultation document will be issued setting out the regional health authority's proposals.
  I must emphasise that the document will be the subject of widespread local consultation with all interested bodies, including Members of this House with a constituency interest, local authorities and the community health council, whose important role, as the hon. Member will well know, is to represent the public interest in matters relating to health services. If the council wished to object to the proposals which are put forward by the regional health authority, it would have to put forward counter-proposals which paid full regard to the factors, including constraints on resources, which led the authority to make the original proposals. If such counter-proposals were to be made and were not acceptable to the regional health authority, it would fall to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to act as arbiter and make the final decision. As proposals have not yet been formulated, I do not wish to comment in any detail about the relevant merits of the sites which have been under discussion tonight, and nothing I say should be construed as prejudging the issue in any way.
  The Government attach great importance to the aim of enabling decisions to be made, wherever possible, at local level. Studies have taken place over the last year of the scope for greater devolution of functions from the Department to regional health authorities, and from regions to areas. Much progress has been made in consideration of proposals for devolution from the Department to regions, and suggestions made for devolution to areas will be followed up with the RHAs over the coming months. Some have already been adopted. We shall be

  1393
  receiving further reports at the end of the summer.
  Mr. Beith: While mentioning the need for consultation and the emphasis that his Department places on letting decisions be taken at local level, I hope that the Minister recognises the importance that regional authorities should attach to consultation when such authorities contain no members from anywhere near the affected site. I hope that the Minister will not delude himself that a decision of a regional authority so far from the affected area could be thought of as a locally-made decision.
  Mr. Deakins: I accept that the hon. Gentleman is not satisfied with the degree of democracy, and I shall have a word to say about that later. Community health councils have local people on them, and if they are anything like my local council they will be vociferous and diligent in protecting the interests of the local community. Whatever one thinks of the reorganisation of the NHS, the emergence of community health councils has been widely welcomed on all sides.
  The Government attach great importance to making health authorities, particularly regional and area authorities, as representative as possible. To this end we have stated that, as a general rule, one-third of the members of these authorities should be drawn from local government. It cannot, therefore, be regarded as completely undemocratic since there is a degree of indirect democracy. That may not satisfy the hon. Gentleman. It
  1394
  does not satisfy a lot of people, but we have improved the situation. We have also said that CHCs should be entitled to send at least one of their members to each meeting of their corresponding AHA. By this means we hope to include as many people as possible in the decision-making process.
  I can assure the hon. Member that the Northern Regional Health Authority has not made any decision of any kind on this subject and will not do so without taking into account all the representations made to it following full consultation.
  There is the long-stop that I have already mentioned—namely, that, if the CHC should react vociferously and put forward counter-proposals which are not agreed by the regional health authority, the matter will come, as with previous hospital closures, to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. It will fall to him, in the light of all the evidence and the representations, to make a final decision. We regard that very much as a matter of last resort. Surely it is better in a democracy that the emphasis should be very much on devolution from this House. Surely we should devolve as many as possible of these decisions, which concern local people, to local organisations.
  I hope that it will be possible locally to reach a decision acceptable to the region, the area, the CHC and all the hon. Gentleman's constituents.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-one minutes past Ten o'clock.

INDUSTRY
  Industrial Development Certificates
  Industrial Development Certificates
  British Steel Corporation
  British Steel Corporation
  Government Aid
  Government Aid
  Steelworks (Closures)
  Steelworks (Closures)
SCOTLAND
  Arbroath Infirmary
  Arbroath Infirmary
  Scottish Assembly
  Scottish Assembly
  Crofters Commission
  Crofters Commission
  Blackford
  Blackford
  Aberdeen
  Aberdeen
  Rents
  Rents
  Herring Fishing
  Herring Fishing
  Transport Services (Orkney and Shetland)
  Transport Services (Orkney and Shetland)
  Crime
  Crime
  Housing Expenditure
  Housing Expenditure
  Police
  Police
  Capital and Corporal Punishment
  Capital and Corporal Punishment
  Buses
  Buses
  TRADE UNIONS
  TRADE UNIONS
NORTHERN IRELAND
  Drugs (Costs)
  Drugs (Costs)
PRICES AND CONSUMER PROTECTION
  Lamps
  Lamps
  Price Control
  Price Control
TRADE
  Whisky
  Whisky
  Insurance (Long-term Policies)
  Insurance (Long-term Policies)
  Developing Countries
  Developing Countries
SOCIAL SERVICES
  National Health Service (Administration)
  National Health Service (Administration)
  Supplementary Benefits Commission Reception and Re-establishment Centres
  Supplementary Benefits Commission Reception and Re-establishment Centres
  Geriatrics
  Geriatrics
  Doctor-Patient Ratio (Leek)
  Doctor-Patient Ratio (Leek)
  Disabled Persons (Vehicles)
  Disabled Persons (Vehicles)
  Hospitals (Medical Equipment)
  Hospitals (Medical Equipment)
  National Health Service (Expenditure)
  National Health Service (Expenditure)
  National Health Service (Staff)
  National Health Service (Staff)
  European Community
  European Community
  Infant Mortality
  Infant Mortality
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  Further Education (Staffordshire)
  Further Education (Staffordshire)
  Southampton Conferences
  Southampton Conferences
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Interpol
  Interpol
  Motoring Offences
  Motoring Offences
  European Parliament (Electorate)
  European Parliament (Electorate)
  Soliciting
  Soliciting
  Police (Pay)
  Police (Pay)
  Circuses
  Circuses
OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT
  "Overseas Development"
  "Overseas Development"
  Bolivia
  Bolivia
ENVIRONMENT
  Local Authority Mortgages
  Local Authority Mortgages
  House Purchase and Improvement (Coventry)
  House Purchase and Improvement (Coventry)
  Royal Parks
  Royal Parks
  Otters
  Otters
  Housing Survey
  Housing Survey
FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
  Rhodesia
  Rhodesia
  South Africa
  South Africa
  Terrorists
  Terrorists
  Helsinki Final Act
  Helsinki Final Act
TRANSPORT
  Driving Tests (West Wickham)
  Driving Tests (West Wickham)
  Motorways (Fog Warning Lights)
  Motorways (Fog Warning Lights)
  Road Accidents (Lorries)
  Road Accidents (Lorries)
  Subsidies (London)
  Subsidies (London)
  Cambridge Park, Wanslead
  Cambridge Park, Wanslead
  PALACE OF WESTMINSTER (STAFF)
  PALACE OF WESTMINSTER (STAFF)
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  European Community
  European Community
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Post-war Credits
  Post-war Credits
  Family Incomes
  Family Incomes
  Income Tax and National Insurance
  Income Tax and National Insurance
  Income Tax
  Income Tax
  Housekeeper Allowance
  Housekeeper Allowance
  Widows
  Widows
  Pensioners
  Pensioners
EMPLOYMENT
  Unemployed Persons
  Unemployed Persons
  Job Creation
  Job Creation
  Staffordshire
  Staffordshire
  Footwear
  Footwear
  Dock Work Regulation Act 1976
  Dock Work Regulation Act 1976
  Job Release Scheme
  Job Release Scheme
ENERGY
  Gas Explosions
  Gas Explosions
  Electricity (Price and Consumption)
  Electricity (Price and Consumption)
  European Community
  European Community
WALES
  Farmers' Union of Wales
  Farmers' Union of Wales
  Lime
  Lime
ENVIRONMENT
  Housing (Expenditure)
  Housing (Expenditure)
  Road Construction Programme
  Road Construction Programme
DEFENCE
  Helsinki Agreement
  Helsinki Agreement

Preamble
The House met at half-past two of the clock (Prayers having been read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the Lord Bishop of Worcester).
The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

CHIROPODISTS: TRAINING AND QUALIFICATIONS
Lord AYLESTONE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they intend to amend the law with a view to preventing untrained or inadequately trained persons from setting themselves up in private practice as chiropodists.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, a number of professional bodies have put forward to my Department detailed proposals for legislation to restrict the right to practise privately as a chiropodist to those with defined standards of training or experience. My right honourable and honourable friends are currently con-siding these proposals, as well as their implications, and hope to decide in the next few weeks whether they should be given Government support.
Lord AYLESTONE: My Lords, may I thank my noble friend for that very helpful reply and ask him whether he is aware that it takes three years to train a chiropodist, and that there are something like 2,500 unqualified people practising as chiropodists? Can he give an assurance that none of them is employed in the National Health Service or by local authority welfare and domiciliary services?
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: Yes, my Lords, I can give my noble friend and your Lordships the assurance that they are not employed within the National Health Service. I have to confess that I do not know the answer with regard to local authorities. Currently there are
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5,000 State-registered chiropodists, and about two-thirds of them undertake work in the National Health Service. I can give the figures for 1975. There were 1,253 whole-time-equivalent chiropodists working in the National Health Service; of that number, 809 gave full-time service to the National Health Service. As my noble friend points out, there are a number of chiropodists who are engaged in chiropody and who call themselves chiropodists but who have not taken the approved training. This is causing anxiety to a large number of people, and, as I said in my original Answer, this is the matter that my right honourable friend is considering.
Lord INGLEWOOD: My Lords, when the noble Lord speaks of restricting the right to practise to those with what he calls "defined standards", will he bear in mind that there are a number of organisations in this country which have trained chiropodists, many of whom are doing admirable work? Will he also endeavour to arrive at a fair conclusion and be sure that he is not just cornering the profession for the members of certain associations who feel they are in an influential position? There is a shortage of trained chiropodists in this country, and the noble Lord ought to do all he can, not just to raise the standards but also to increase the numbers.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, the fact that there is a shortage of fully-trained chiropodists in this country is no reason for recognising people who have not been adequately trained.
Lord INGLEWOOD: I never suggested that it was, my Lords.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I did not say that the noble Lord had made such a suggestion. It so happens that it is possible to practise as a chiropodist after taking fifteen postal-course lessons with something like three or four weeks' practical training. That raises questions, and it is for that reason why my right honourable friend is considering these matters in consultation with the Chiropodist Board.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDE: My Lords, perhaps I may thank I the noble Lord for his reasonably helpful

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reply. Does it not rather surprise him that it is taking so long to consider this question? As he was not absolutely certain that the Government would support the matter, can the noble Lord give us an assurance that he will not keep us waiting too long, so that when a decision (I hope, a favourable one) has been taken we can get on with it? It is essential that something should be done.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I said in my original reply that we hoped to decide within the next few weeks whether the proposals to restrict the practice of certain people calling themselves chiropodists should be given Government support, so there ought to be some decision in the very near future.
Lord HALE: My Lords, will my noble friend remember that many of the poorer patients are attended by experienced practising chiropodists who have not taken an examination; that they can be treated at home and have been treated at home; and that they therefore do not have to face the difficulty and the trouble of travelling, with defective feet, often for long distances? Will my noble friend not disqualify men of experience who have given satisfaction to their clients and have practised their profession for a long time merely on the allegation that they are less qualified than somebody who has had no experience but has just passed an examination?
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, we would accept that there are a large number of chiropodists who have not had very great training and who are carrying out simple routine tasks of foot care and hygiene which in the normal way a fit person would be able to undertake for himself. We recognise this, and there may well be a place for them; but I think that we must consider what we are being asked to do by a large number of people who are expressing concern as to the extent to which they should be allowed to function.

PASSPORTS AND THE EEC
2.37 p.m.
Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they can confirm that they have no intention of allowing the United Kingdom passport to be replaced by an EEC passport.
The MINISTER of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts): My Lords, I can give such confirmation. Proposals regarding a European uniform passport are not for an EEC passport but for uniformity of style of the national passports of Member States. The United Kingdom version will continue to be our national passport.
Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEY: My Lords, I should like to thank the Minister for that very encouraging and assuring reply. Would he perhaps consider the line that the Bank Credit System has taken, which is apparently to endorse credit cards with an EEC background availability, as it were, should this matter ever come up? It seems to me a very good solution, because I am sure the Minister appreciates that we value our United Kingdom passports very highly.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I repeat that we value the national character of the passport which will be identifiable as one of nine which defer to membership of the Community. As to the suggestion of the noble Baroness, most certainly we shall bear that in mind.
The Earl of KIMBERLEY: My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether, in the long term, it is the intention of the Nine countries to do away with passports as between their own countries?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, that would be to anticipate discussions which, even within this rather narrow field, are by no means complete. Indeed, I do not expect that the national passport in its new format, which will be in some respects European, will be available in this country for the next two years.
Lord GLADWYN: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the Members of the European Parliament, even the present European Parliament, and I believe officials of the Community, get on very

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well with a form of European passport which is issued, I think, by the Secretary-General of Parliament? Could that system be extended?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I have no doubt that that suggestion—which is based on fact, I agree—has been considered by the Working Committee of the Commission which is considering these matters, and no doubt that committee will pick up tomorrow the repetition of this suggestion from the Official Report of the proceedings of this House.
Lord WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that, where a Welshman is involved, it would be appropriate to add a dragon to the passport?
The Earl of SELKIRK: My Lords, can such a passport-holder ask for assistance from the Embassy of any one of the European countries if he gets into trouble in a third country?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, we are in continuous consultation with our friends and fellow Members of the Community about this and other at least equally important matters. Indeed, there is a Working Party, as I have indicated, on these interesting details. I think I can add to the knowledge of the House by saying that the name of our country, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the Royal Arms will, in any case, figure prominently on the cover of the new passport.

POLICE PAY REVIEW BODY
2.41 p.m.
Lord HALE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are in a position to announce the composition and terms of reference of the review body into the negotiating machinery for police pay.
The MINISTER of STATE, HOME OFFICE (Lord Harris of Greenwich): My
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Lords, my right honourable friend hopes very shortly to be able to announce the membership and terms of reference of the review body. Consultations with all the bodies represented in the Police Council for the United Kingdom have almost been completed.
Lord HALE: My Lords, though I thank my noble friend for that promising Answer, may I say that there is no definition of "very shortly", and that much the same words were used in the official Statement made by the Minister in another place in May? He himself also went on to call attention to the urgency of this matter since the police claim under the third year of the pay round is due to be discussed as early as September. September is very near and the situation is becoming more and more serious, so the sooner an announcement can be made the better.
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: My Lords, I expect that the review body will be set up by the end of this month.
Lord GLADWYN: My Lords, is it recognised that service in the police force is perhaps now just as dangerous as service in the coal mines? Should it not, therefore, be rewarded on a similar basis?
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: My Lords, that raises wider questions which will, no doubt, be taken into account when this matter is discussed with the representatives of the police organisations.
Lord HALE: My Lords, can the noble Lord also make it clear that the Royal Commission which sat in 1960 and 1962 and of which I was a member, made it clear as regards the question which it was asked to determine—that is, the relationship between police wages and those of the central community—that it regarded a 4 per cent. increase over average wages as essential to preserve the independence of the force? Is my noble friend aware that police wages have fallen well below that in the course of the last few years?
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: My Lords, my noble friend's Question related to the question of the review body. I have already indicated that I expect that

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there will be a Statement on this before the end of this month. My noble friend is now going into the merits of the question. All that I would say is that I believe that we have behaved to the police wholly in accord with the second phase of the incomes policy. I think that we were absolutely right to make that decision. The consequences of having done anything else would have been extremely damaging to the interests of this country and, in the longer term, to the interests of the police service as well.
The Earl of MANSFIELD: My Lords, do the Government acknowledge that there is a real feeling of resentment on the part of the police in this country which has led to a considerable loss of morale? Will the noble Lord say that, whatever the deliberations of the review body may be, at least the Government have the welfare of the police in mind?
Lord HARRIS of GREENWICH: My Lords, I think that it would be unusual were I to say that the Government had not got the interests of the police in mind. Of course we have. It would be quite preposterous to say anything else. We recognise completely the valuable work done by all members of the police service. I am slightly surprised that such a question should be put by the noble Earl. I can say that despite the recent difficulties that we have had, there has been a substantial increase in the size of the police service. Since March, 1974 there has been an increase of 9,000 men and women police.

GUATEMALA AND BARBADIAN ARMS INTERCEPTION
2.46 p.m.
Baroness VICKERS: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government, in view of the report that arms intended for Guatemala were intercepted when an aeroplane landed in Barbados, what action has been taken since and what is the present situation between Guatemala and Belize.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, the Government of Barbados have, I understand, claimed forfeiture of this consignment of ammunition under their laws and further action is a matter for the Barbadian courts. For our part, we deplore the supply of arms to Guatemala that could be used against the British garrison in Belize; in this instance we are making representations to the Portuguese Government, since the consignment was loaded in Lisbon. We continue to seek a negotiated solution to our differences with Guatemala over Belize and the joint Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs is now in Washington for talks with the Foreign Minister of Guatemala.
Baroness VICKERS: My Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, the first half of which was very satisfactory, can he give me the assurance that Belize will remain independent under the Crown until they choose to do otherwise?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I can give that assurance. That is the basis on which our negotiations are proceeding.
Baroness ELLES: My Lords, will the Minister answer two questions: First, has he any evidence of the rumour that the plane that picked up the arms in Lisbon started from Stansted; and have the Government made any inquiries as to how and why this particular plane should have been allowed to go on this mission taking arms to Guatemala? Secondly, and this is a different point, can the Minister say whether he has any information as to the outcome of the discussions during the meeting of the Organisation of American States, whether the question of Belize was discussed and what is the attitude of the American Government in this matter?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, the aircraft which has been detained in Barbados and which is Argentinian-owned, arrived at Stansted on 23rd June from Las Palmas carrying aero engines for servicing and left empty on 24th June for Lisbon. There is evidence that the arms consignment, 26 tons of ammunition for rifles, was loaded in Lisbon on 24th June, the date of the return from Stansted empty. The aircraft was detained

345
after landing in Barbados on the following day 25th June. The first question put by the noble Baroness is, I think, satisfactorily answered in that there is no additional complication to this arising from the fact that the aircraft delivered in the normal course a commercial consignment to Stansted.
On the second point, about the attitude of the Organisation of American States and, specifically, of the U.S., I could not specify the present attitude of the OAS, except to say that the Northern South American States are pretty unanimous in supporting the reasonable position that Belize should proceed to independence on a basis of integrity and after peaceful negotiations with its neighbour, Guatemala. That is the attitude of our American friends; but, even more importantly, a point which I know the noble Baroness had in mind, is that twice in the recent past the United Nations have gone on record almost unanimously that any change in the relationship of these two countries should proceed only on the basis of peaceful negotiation and agreement.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTON: My Lords, have the Government of Barbados had their attention drawn to the "Alabama" case, in which this country was mulcted of heavy damages for allowing arms to leave this country which were intended to be used against America? It seems apt.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I would not underrate the resources of the research departments of the countries concerned which are looking into the points which my noble friend has raised.
Lord AVEBURY: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in the "Alabama" case the United Kingdom Government were prepared to submit to arbitration, whereas, so far as I know, the Guatemalans have not so far consented to that procedure? The Minister has said that this aircraft was registered in Argentina. Has he made any inquiries whether the Argentine authorities have knowledge of the cargo that was being ferried in the aircraft, of its destination and the use to which the arms might be put? If, as
346
would appear likely, they had such knowledge, is this not an outrageous act by a so-called friendly State? Would the noble Lord take steps to see that it is drawn to the attention of the United Nations?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I am afraid that the noble Lord builds an edifice of outrage on a whole series of hypotheses. I said that my understanding was that this aircraft was Argentine owned. Beyond that, I would not care to speculate this afternoon.
Lord REIGATE: My Lords, will the noble Lord say what is the attitude of the Mexican Government in this matter? They have a strong interest in seeing that Belize remains independent.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I cannot say what the Mexican Government's attitude is specifically to the situation as it seems to have arisen. I agree with the noble Lord that they have a very strong and constructive attitude to this problem. They and contiguous States—I forbore to quote the OAS for reasons which I know the noble Baroness appreciates—closely interested in the stability of this area, have comported themselves and co-operated in exemplary fashion. I specifically include the Mexican Government in that description.
Lord GORE-BOOTH: My Lords, as this difficulty is too often represented as being simply a quarrel between Guatemala and Britain, may I ask the noble Lord if he would confirm the interpretation which, some time back, I put on his Answer to the noble Baroness, that the people of Belize prefer our policy in this area to what the Guatemalans are seeking to impose by force?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I can certainly confirm that. The noble Lord, as usual, puts it absolutely precisely. The view of the Belizeans, at least at the moment, is that they would prefer to remain as they are rather than to accept what has so far been offered to them. We support the Belizeans on the principle of self-determination of peoples.

HOSPITAL SERVICE AND MEDICAL CENTRES
2.52 p.m.
Lord AUCKLAND Lord AUCKLAND rose to call attention to serious problems currently affecting the Hospital Service and medical centres; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion which stands in my name on the Order Paper. It was several months ago that this Motion originally went on the Order Paper. I am grateful to those who operate the usual channels for having enabled this important topic to be discussed today.
Your Lordships will have noticed that in the past few days the Motion has been substantially altered. This is because, as your Lordships will know, a Royal Commission is sitting or is about to sit upon the subject of the National Health Service as a whole, and in those circumstances it would be counter-productive to have a full scale debate on the National Health Service per se. However, I hope that this debate, some of whose participants are distinguished persons in the medical and social services fields, will at least give the Royal Commission some food for thought.
I have no financial interest to declare here. But, as many of your Lordships will know, like many other Members of this House and of another place, I have sat as a member of house committees in both children's hospitals and long stay mental hospitals, and so have my family before me for many years, both during the period of the National Health Service and also before the Health Service came into being. Therefore, I must at the first instance say with what regret it is that I feel myself compelled to criticise the reorganisation of the Health Service. All political Parties are, without exception, in varying degrees dedicated to the existence of a good, ever increasing, improving and improved Health Service.
The only dissenting remarks which I am going to make, I hope, in the course of my speech are to criticise two major Bills, one produced by the Party on this side of the House, and one by the Party now in office. My criticism will be very brief because these measures were debated very fully into the small hours of several mornings in your Lordships' House in
348
the past Session. I refer, of course, to the phasing out of the pay beds.
So far as the reorganisation of the National Health Service is concerned, those who served on hospital management committees, house committees and so on, were themselves phased out. Area Health authorities and Community Health Councils have replaced those committees. I have not one word of criticism against those who serve on these bodies. I am sure they will do as fine and conscientious a job as anyone can. But, having spoken to people in the medical profession—doctors, nurses and administrators—I find that they all speak with practically one voice and say that the existence of the third tier has had a traumatic effect on communications. This is particularly true in long stay hospitals.
I recall very well serving on a house committee in one of the seven mental hospitals in Epsom, where I live. I went round the wards—there were 32 of them—with the hospital superintendent, the chief nursing officer, the chairman of the house committee and others, and talked to those patients who were able to talk, and to the staff, many of whom we came to know by name. Where there were minor problems—and a lot of the problems are minor ones—these could be solved a great deal more quickly than they can be solved today. Whereas we could go round these places and report at the next meeting of the hospital management committee, now the whole matter has to go through the Area Health Authority. Of course serious matters could not be solved on the spot, nor can they in any walk of life. I shall come back in a few moments briefly and specifically to the long stay hospitals.
However, I should like now to turn to the subject of general hospitals. One of the many problems at present which hospitals have had to face is, in some cases, industrial disruption. For a very obvious reason I do not want to say too much about this, but in one hospital near where I live there was one particularly nasty scene when a lady who had been operating a lorry which carried food into the hospital was accosted by some pickets; and, as I understand it, there was some doubt as to whether those pickets even belonged to the hospital concerned. The lady stood her ground and there was very nearly a nasty accident. It is no

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part of my speech this afternoon to discuss the merits or otherwise of the disputes concerning COHSE, NUPE or any other union. I would put only this very direct question to your Lordships: who runs the therapeutic side of our hospitals—doctors, nurses or the ancillary staff? These disputes so often end in elderly nurses and others having to push heavy trolleys loaded with food or hospital equipment, very likely watched by and sometimes with rather smirking faces, the strikers themselves.
It would be quite wrong, as I said earlier, for me to mention any names or any specific incidents. I did mention just one hospital, because I happen to know the circumstances; but I would say that this whole aspect of the debate really rests on the question of morale. A great deal is made in our communications media about morale in our hospitals and also the state of our hospitals. I think a lot of damage can be done here, but the fact that there are disputes of this kind, which throw a tremendous extra workload on those who minister to the sick in these hospitals is bound to cause exhaustion. It is a very tiring job anyway, as anyone who has worked in a hospital will know, and of course this affects morale very badly.
I should like now to turn to the long-stay hospitals, where I have had rather more experience as a house committee member than I have of general hospitals. Two nights ago I paid a lengthy visit to one of our busy paediatric hospitals in Surrey, where the most marvellous work is done for children suffering from diseases such as spina bifida and hydrocephalus and various bone infections. Some will recover; others will probably never leave their beds. Your Lordships may be aware of the cheerfulness of the staff and patients, the general cleanliness of the wards, the general neatness of these patients—and I would remind your Lordships that some are very difficult to care for, being doubly incontinent and needing constant care, being fed, and looked after 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
There are two major difficulties facing hospitals such as these. The hospital in Surrey which I mention is fortunate in having some lovely gardens, and is better placed than many other hospitals in the Midlands, in South Wales, in the Potteries
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and elsewhere, where there are still mentally sick people being looked after. One difficulty which I suppose faces all of us today—in industry, in private or in public, and in everything else—is the vexed question of finance. It was very disturbing to learn that the replacing of furniture in the wards is becoming more and more of a problem. As these children grow older, those who are ambulant obviously become that much more violent from time to time; furniture gets kicked about and other parts of the ward also become damaged. I am informed that, due to shortage of capital funds, these objects are becoming harder and harder to replace.
In many hospitals, the same is true on the nursing side. It is encouraging to note in many hospitals the increasing number of British-born girls and men going into nursing. That is true in mental hospitals as well as in general hospitals. In saying this, I would not desist for one moment from paying the highest tribute to those from our Commonwealth, old and new, and from other countries, whose presence in our hospitals is very vital—indeed, many hospitals would close down were it not for our overseas staff. But I think it is equally important that the greatest possible incentive is given to the recruitment of our own young people into the Hospital Service.
There are several questions I should like to put to the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, and I have given him notice of some of them. I do not think that I have mentioned the question which I am now going to put to him. It is this: what is being done in schools and colleges of education to encourage more nurses to go into our hospitals and, indeed, to extend the pupil-nurse system which I know some hospitals have employed? The last major comprehensive building programme was put forward in 1962, when the right honourable gentleman, Mr. Enoch Powell, was Minister of Health. I should like to ask the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, what plans the Government now have to publish up-to-date details of construction and renovation policy for the existing hospitals which badly need renovation—and one does not have to go very far to see such hospitals, where the greatest loyalties often exist—and also of the works completed.
Another question which is uppermost in the minds of many concerns the requirements and standards of English language, particularly for overseas doctors coming into our hospitals. Some of your Lordships will have read of the distressing tragedies which have occurred from time to time, when a doctor has given an instruction for an intravenous injection and, through the instruction being not quite understood, the wrong injection has been given for a relatively minor ailment. So as a result of a misunderstanding, the patient has been completely paralysed for life. Accidents will happen, and it would be folly to pretend that 100 times out of 100 tragedies of this kind will not occur, but even a slight improvement would be something. I know that the incidence is relatively small, but it is still too high for comfort.
This brings me on to the question of safety precautions in hospitals. One of the big problems, particularly in our long-stay hospitals, is fire hazard. Your Lordships will remember the case of the mental hospital near Sherborne in Dorset, where some 38 patients lost their lives when a ward was burned down. According to the inquiry, a lot of plywood was used in partitioning between the beds and that is an obvious fire hazard. I wonder whether the Minister can say what is being done about this. Presumably, it is the responsibility of the Area Health Authority, but are they being given sufficient funds to put the situation right?
On the question of large general hospitals, I was sent a very interesting article by the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, who was a Health Service Minister in the Government elected in 1945, stressing the vital importance of patient care and—as I understood his article—of hospitals not becoming too large. The 2,000-bed general hospital may be a fine sight to look at, but it is very difficult to administer. So the question which I and other noble Lords have put before is, What will be the future of the cottage hospitals? I particularly ask about areas such as Scotland. In Perthshire, which is a part of the country that I know very well, there are at least three splendid cottage hospitals, and near where I live in Surrey there are two. But they never quite know when the sword of Damocles will fall on them. Bearing in mind the essential relationship between
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doctor and patient, is it the Government's policy to keep these very fine hospitals going?
Finally, there is the question of kidney machines. Am I right in thinking that the kidney unit at Hammersmith Hospital is being phased out? If this is true, it is extremely disturbing news. I do not know how many people in this country who can work, particularly young people, are undergoing renal dialysis, but it is vital, even it it means spending more money, that extra kidney machines are provided: first, to save life and, secondly, to enable these people to give benefit to the community. I know the answer may well be that they are very expensive, but it is even more expensive to let these things slide.
I finish by quoting from a book written in 1952 by a very famous Minister of Health, now deceased, who did not always find his views shared on this side of the House, but who, nevertheless, in incepting the Health Service had a very good brain. He wrote:
"Doubtless other defects can be found and further improvements made in the Health Service. What emerges, however, in the final count is the massive contribution that the British Health Service makes to the equipment of a civilised society. It has now become part of the texture of our national life. No political party would survive that tried to destroy it".
I believe those last words to be true. I would only add that it is incumbent upon successive Governments, whether of the Left or of the Right, to improve the Health Service. Those who work in it deserve this, and I hope that this debate and those noble Lords who are to speak after me will stress this point. My Lords, I beg to move for Papers.
3.18 p.m.
Lord AMULREE: My Lords, we are very pleased that the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, has referred to so many of the problems which confront the Health Service at the present time, and I do not propose to follow along exactly the same lines and repeat what he said. But I have been a firm supporter of the Service from the moment it started. I worked as part of it for about 20 years, and it was with a great deal of sorrow and regret that I saw the first Act of Parliament which came in to reform the Health Service about five or six years ago. The sole effect of that reform has been an

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enormous increase in the administrative side of the Service. Between 1966 and 1974, which is the last year for which I have a figure, the number of full-time administrators increased by 77 per cent., whereas the figure for general practitioners was about 7 per cent. and for consultants about 13 per cent. One would not object at all had that large increase in administration led to a 77 per cent. increase of good for patients. But I do not believe, in general, that it has done anything at all to improve the lot of the patient; and, after all, the Health Service was intended for the care of the sick and those in need, not for the administration.
I know perfectly well, and I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, will agree, that we are extremely short of money, and that we shall have to make do with what we have. Therefore, I have not for quite a long time been in favour of pulling down old hospitals and building new, larger and more splendid ones.
I did my work for the National Health Service in what was the infirmary of the old St. Pancras workhouse, which was built in the 'fifties or 'sixties of the last century. It was extremely well built and we spent a certain amount of money upon improving it internally. So, internally, it was a good, modern, attractive building, although I am afraid that from the outside it still looks like the infirmary of the old St. Pancras workhouse. However, that does not matter. That is why I wonder what people are frustrated about when they say that their hospitals are not modern. Provided that there is the will to work well and a certain amount of money so that equipment can be kept up to date, it does not seem to me to matter a great deal what kind of building one works in. That is why I am interested in what the noble Lord has said about the fate of the small hospitals.
At one time, there was a feeling that the small hospitals should be shut down and that all work should be done in district general hospitals with a minimum of 500 beds. I believe that there has been a change of heart. Now it is felt that more can be done with the small hospitals, provided that they are linked in all kinds of ways with the district general hospitals. I have been convinced for a very long time that it is most therapeutic for anybody who is in a hospital bed to be visited by his
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relatives and friends. Quite often that will do him far more good than the care that my profession and the other professions can give, because the general tendency of most illnesses is towards recovery. Therefore, I should like as many as possible of these small hospitals to be retained, so that visitors can reach them regularly and easily, and to be linked with the larger district general hospitals which can do work, particularly in this rather specialised world of medicine into which we are now moving, that cannot be done by the other hospitals.
There was an inquiry regarding nurses, the name of which I cannot remember at the moment but which sat at the same time as the social worker inquiry. It was accepted by the Government of the day that if nurses wish to rise to the top of their profession they should do so on the administrative rather than the therapeutic side, where the primary aim is to take care of sick people. That has done nothing to improve the quality of nursing or to make it a more attractive profession for young people.
One of the places where the reconstruction of the National Health Service went wrong—and here I agree entirely with what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Auckland—concerns the value of the hospital management committees. Both the noble Lord and I have served upon hospital management committees and we know that their value was enormous. One was in contact with the hospital staff and one knew what was going on. Also, one was in touch with the patients. All that has now gone. Instead we have bodies called area health authorities. Therefore, personal contact between those running hospitals and the patients has been lost. The local management committees have been replaced by a third administrative tier. I am certain that it would be no loss if one of the administrative tiers were to vanish, and I hope that it will.
So far as I can remember, when Aneurin Bevan introduced the National Health Service the original concept was that the Regional Hospital Boards and the teaching hospitals should have the real authority, that very largely the Service should be run by local committees, under the Regional Hospital Boards and the teaching hospitals, and that the Ministry should

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not be so powerful a body but one which formulated general policy for the country, so that the Regional Boards and boards of governors knew what was expected of them. Unfortunately, however, the power of the Treasury proved to be too strong. Therefore the Ministry of Health, or what is now called the Department of Health and Social Security, has retained an enormous amount of control, although I do not believe this to have been the intention when the National Health Service was set up.
There is one minor point which I should like to make on the financial side. It is a pity that arrangements cannot be made whereby money which is granted to a hospital authority in a certain year can be carried over to the next year. It happens from time to time that money which has been granted to a hospital cannot, for very good reasons, be spent in one year. If a hospital cannot spend the money during the year in question, I believe I am right in saying that it has to be returned to the Treasury. So when March comes the hospital authorities say, "Goodness! We have £5,000 to spend. What can we spend it on?" And they spend it upon many extravagant items which are not required. My Lords, those are the few random points which I wanted to make. I have made them before and, if I am spared a little longer, I shall probably be called upon to make them again, for it will be quite a long time before a good number of these points are taken up and put into effect.
3.29 p.m.
Baroness YOUNG: My Lords, I am sure that we are all delighted that my noble friend Lord Auckland has introduced such an important debate this afternoon. It is timely. Although the Royal Commission is sitting, we do not know when it is to report, nor, so far as I know, is it to issue an interim report. Even more important, we do not know whether, when the Royal Commission does report, its findings will command acceptance. In the meantime, to put a self-denying ordinance upon any discussion of the National Health Service or the medical services would not be helpful. It seems to me to be right that this House should debate the National Health Service, especially at a time when morale is so low
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and anxiety so widespread. The National Health Service, once the pride of our country and the envy of the world, is not what it was. At the very least, the debate today will reassure the many thousands who have been working so hard and so long in the National Health Service that there are noble Lords on all sides of the House who care deeply about the service and its problems.
My Lords, I regret that I must begin my speech with an apology to the House. Unfortunately, I shall not be able to stay until the end of the debate. I apologise in particular to the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, for I shall not hear his winding up speech. However, months ago I agreed to attend the centenary celebrations of my old school which fall this evening and I do not think that I can go back on the agreement that I made. Therefore, I apologise to the House, but I shall read with great care what is said.
My Lords, in preparation for this debate, I re-read the debate in your Lordships' House on 3rd December, 1975. There was much discussion then on two particular topics: the start of the National Health Service and Pay Beds. Unlike many speakers in today's debate I was not in politics at the start of the National Health Service and my only comment is that I am one of its beneficiaries. However, I should like to emphasise at the outset that my Party is firmly committed to the maintenance of the National Health Service. We believe that the first task of any Government, at present, is to restore morale in the Service and I shall return to that point later in my remarks.
As regards the phasing out of private beds in National Health Service hospitals, I wish to make only one remark. During the long debates on the Health Services Act, this House carried an important Amendment to the effect that those private beds which were phased out should be used by National Health Service patients. The spirit of this Amendment, although not its precise wording, was actually accepted by the Government in another place, no doubt because it would have been highly embarrassing to have to admit that, far from preventing queue jumping—ostensibly the reason for the Health Services Act—the Act would have actually had the effect of lengthening the queue.

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Let us consider what has, in fact, happened. As far as I can ascertain, the private beds which have been phased out have not been used for National Health Service patients. I think that I can do no better than quote a letter from a doctor which appeared in the British Medical Journal on 28th May, 1977. He writes:
"On 20 May this year 10 beds on the private ward at the Gordon Hospital, a part of our hospital group, were due to be closed down. These beds will lie empty and gradually collect a veneer of dust. There is no question at—all of their being used for NHS patients and to help reduce our rapidly lengthening waiting list. Inquiries among my surgical colleagues throughout Britain have failed to reveal any example where the closure of a private ward has released a single bed for a NHS patient".
My Lords, I believe this to be an indictment of the Bill and its consequences. I think that it is particularly serious if it is taken in conjunction with a report that has recently been issued called Common Waiting Lists for NHS and Private Patients in NHS Hospitals. If we look at the principal recommendation of this Report, which appears in paragraph 9 and which states:
"We recommend that all other private patients should be placed on the same waiting list as comparable NHS patients in the care of the same consultant"—
a recommendation which I believe to be completely sensible and with which I personally agree entirely—we shall see at once that, if more patients go on to the waiting lists and there are fewer beds in the hospitals, the effect will be to lengthen the queue. I sometimes feel that we are in an "Alice in Wonderland" world and, as someone who believes that the object of this exercise is, at the end of the day, to help National Health Service patients, I think that it is a very sad reflection that the consequence of all this has been as I have stated.
The facts for the ordinary patients are now very serious indeed. There are over half a million on the hospital waiting lists in England alone, of whom 30 per cent, are, I believe, people who have been waiting for over a year. At the same time, there is a rise in the waiting time for out-patient consultations and a fall in the number of cases treated per doctor in the Hospital Service of over 7 per cent. As one doctor wrote to me—and I quote his letter—
"It is still possible, as a result of the commitment of all kinds of staff, to offer a good service to
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those needing emergency treatment, a fair service to the seriously ill with conditions imperilling life or health, but for those with conditions which although troublesome and debilitating do not carry a danger to life, there is a diminishing prospect of any treatment at all".
My Lords, I hope that that doctor is taking too gloomy a view. However, I believe it to be true that, for example, for those suffering from arthritis who want what has now come to be considered a relatively common operation, the waiting time is, on average, 14 months. Sometimes, patients need to wait up to five years for such an operation.
What, then, are the causes of these problems and can we offer any remedies? The first, and obvious, cause of trouble is that the National Health Service is under-financed. When all the figures are juggled about there is simply not enough money for an effective, comprehensive Health Service. We have created an indefinite demand with a finite amount of money. This is made abundantly clear in all the Government reports on this matter. It seems to me that the first thing to he done is to explain the realities of the situation to the public so that they know what to expect in the present economic situation and for some time to come. Otherwise, the public are simply encouraged to blame the staff for the shortcomings of the Health Service and that, I feel, is completely unjustified because the staff are working very hard in difficult circumstances.
I hope very much that the Royal Commission which is looking, among other matters, at the financing of the National Health Service will look to see how the health services are financed in other European countries. I think that it would be extremely helpful for us to see how it is done. I think, too, that we ought to look at charges to see whether they really keep up with the rate of inflation. Certainly some of the charges have done so. For example, the income from dental charges has risen from 16 per cent. as a whole in 1975–1976 to 24·3 per cent. as a whole in 1977–1978. The income from optical charges has likewise gone up from 28·5 per cent. to 37·7 per cent. The income from prescription charges in relation to the gross cost of the pharmaceutical services has actually dropped from 5·8 per cent. to 4·6 per cent. I do not know why, but it seems to me that that is something that is worth looking at.

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My Lords, I also believe that it is worth looking at the whole problem and question of encouraging more people to take out private insurance. It is an extremely curious fact that if one looks at the group of people who actually have to pay when they go into hospital, one finds that it is that group—those on retirement pensions, or sickness, invalidity or injury benefits—who are in the hospital for more than eight weeks. After that period, their pensions are reduced. The total number of retirement pensioners in hospital who have had their pensions so reduced has risen from 86,000 in 1973 to 88,000 in 1975. When one looks at the most up to date figures for the total sum of money involved, one discovers that the money going back into the Health Service for retirement pensioners alone has risen from £21 million in 1973, to £40 million in 1976. If we include in that sum of money those who have sickness, invalidity and injury benefits, the total for a full year would probably rise to £60 million or more. Of course, those figures take no account at all of supplementary benefits.
The argument that is put forward for removing pensions when people have been in hospital for more than eight weeks is that it would be wrong for them to have, as it were, pay twice—once by way of a pension and once again in hospital. Yet, when one has ceased to play with the words, the fact is that they are contributing to their cost. If what might well be described as the most needy group in the population—the elderly, the disabled and the injured—are required to do this, would it not be sensible at least to encourage the fit and the able to take out private health insurance schemes and so take away from the national health services some of the expense of the operations and other treatment required?
One concrete method of encouraging more private insurance schemes would be by way of tax relief for employers and employees. I think that this is something that it would be well worth the Government examining. I hope that the Royal Commission is looking at it very seriously indeed in order that all the patients in the National Health Service may benefit.
Finally, on finance I think we need to look at a much better use of resources
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and I know that my noble friend Lord Sandys, who will be winding up for us on these Benches, will be speaking about this. Both the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, and the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, spoke about the complaint, which indeed I have heard many times, that there are far too many administrators in all areas of the National Health Service and the National Health Service reorganisation is always blamed for it. In fairness to the Act, I believe that when the National Health Service Reorganisation Act came into force in 1974 not a single extra person was employed in the Health Service who had not previously been employed in the National Health Service or in the local authority services which were incorporated into the Service at that time. There were a number of redundancies and a special staff commission was set up to look at the problem of people who might be affected adversely as a result of the reorganisation.
The way in which the Service has developed since then cannot be blamed on the Act itself, and we recognise that there is a position which I myself much regret in which there is now one administrator for every four hospital beds. Surely this cannot be right, and we need to look at our resources to ensure that money is going in the right place. Therefore, I think there is a case for looking at the proportion of administrators.
The third area where I think there has been a great loss of morale is in connection with the staff. I should like only to say this about the nursing profession, which I believe is one of the great professions in this country. It is absolutely deplorable that nurses are so badly needed in hospitals and yet, at the same time, there are now 3,821 registered as unemployed, although fully qualified. Indeed there are many nurses in training who know that when they have completed their training they will not have a job. This goes side by side with empty hospital beds and ever-lengthening waiting lists. It is an Alice-in-Wonderland situation; something which would he a comedy were it not in this case a tragedy.
Equally serious has been the way the doctors and consultants have been affected by the various incomes policies over the last two years. Nobody who takes a serious interest in this matter can fail to

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have read the 1977 Review on Doctors' and Dentists' Remuneration. I believe its publication was somewhat delayed, and that is hardly surprising when we read the facts contained in it. The facts are that between April 1975 and April 1977 the average fall in living standards for the average wage and salary earner was about 6 per cent; the average remuneration for doctors and dentists fell by at least 10 per cent. and in some cases by 14 per cent. and, due to a number of anomalies, even more than that. The only other group of people whom I believe have fared equally badly have been university teachers. It seems unfortunate that this group of professional people seem to have been singled out for this unfortunate treatment. Although the review body does not suggest that there will be anything like a strike—and the last thing anybody would wish would be something like that—there is no doubt that there is considerable concern among professional people that, because of the dates at which the reviews have taken place, they have found themselves in a pay trap with their remuneration falling steadily behind that of others. After all, they work very long hours, they have to spend years studying in order to gain their qualifications and it does not help anyone to believe that at the end society feels they are of such little worth that they should be paid relatively less and suffer relatively more than other groups in the population.
Perhaps it is not surprising that a recent report in The Times of 2nd March showed that, in inquiries made of nine of the 14 Regional Health Authorities, for a total of 612 registrars' posts, only 1,009 applications were British and 7,796 applications came from overseas. Of those who were finally appointed, 385 were from overseas, representing 62·9 per cent. compared with 37·1 per cent. who were British. So we see a pattern emerging in which the opportunity to go into the National Health Service is not one which British doctors are seeking. It seems to be one which is more popular with those from overseas. Again we have the pattern emerging of ever-lengthening queues, unemployment among the nurses, demoralisation among the doctors and the filling of the posts in the hospitals by those from overseas. All this adds up to a very sorry tale indeed. They are serious facts and I think they explain the loss of morale in the National Health Service.
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Therefore, I should like to finish on a constructive note. I believe we ought to be thinking constructively about the improvement of the Service. I hope the Government will look seriously at the question of pay anomalies, at the question of fully employing fully qualified nurses. In order to help the patients, I hope the Government will look carefully at the relationship between the National Health Service and the social service departments of local authorities. That is something which could be done without extra cost in money and it would help the discharge of patients into their own homes to come about more quickly and more satisfactorily for both parties.
In a debate like this, it is easy to talk about the National Health Service, the doctors, the nurses and the ancillary workers, and yet at the same time to forget the patients. At the end of the day, they are what it is all about. Perhaps I might quote one short story about the National Health Service which applied to myself. Not so long ago the school which my daughter attends telephoned me to say that she had had a very slight accident in the gymnasium and they thought I ought to take her to have her foot X-rayed. I collected the child from the school and I took her down to the casualty outpatients department of our local hospital. There is no car park so I had to leave her in the outpatients department while I went off to park the car. When I came back, to my surprise I found her outside the hospital, sitting on a chair. She had fainted from the heat and had now bruised her head very badly and so she had been put outside to recover. At any rate, I collected my child and we went back into the casualty outpatients department, and the House will be pleased to hear that in fact her foot was not very seriously hurt and three hours later we went home.
I have no complaint of the treatment. The doctor we saw could not have been kinder or more helpful. He looked quite exhausted; he told me that if I was not satisfied I was not to hesitate to come back again, but it emphasises the difficulties of old buildings, of hospitals without adequate facilities, of the difficulties of people who have to take children to hospital and of the time that it takes. I quote the story simply because these are the matters which people think about when they consider the National Health

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Service. I quote it not as a criticism but as a typical example of the use by patients of the National Health Service.
I hope very much that the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, and the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, about better relationships in hospitals will come about. I believe the worst possible situation for the Hospital Service would be for there to be further disputes between the consultants and the ancillary workers, because at the end of the day the health of the patient depends entirely upon the work and the skills of everybody in the hospital from the consultant to the doctor, to the person who provides the meals, the person who cleans the rooms. All are needed and all have their part to play. I believe that all in the Service should recognise that they are working for a Service in which the good of the patient must always come first.
3.49 p.m.
Lord SEGAL: My Lords, I take part in this debate with a good deal of diffidence and some degree of reluctance, but if the whole trend of the debate tends to he somewhat critical, perhaps it may afford a degree of comfort to my noble friend who is to reply that I am to be the last speaker from these Benches who is to take part. When I first rose to speak in your Lordships' House, now over 12 years ago, it was on a similar Motion, also introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, and I am grateful to him once again for having raised this subject in today's debate.
That occasion 12 years ago was also notable for the maiden speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Brooke of Ystradfellte, who, I am glad to see, has been with us until a few moments ago. My subject 12 years ago was the existing malaise in the medical profession, particularly among general practitioners. That malaise has been a favourite theme of many maiden speakers since. I recall especially a striking maiden speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Stocks, who, alas, is no longer with us. This malaise in the National Health Service, however, is still with us, if anything to a far greater extent today than it was 12 years ago. What is so regrettable is the fact that it has since spread to the ranks of the con-
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sultants as well, in fact throughout the National Health Service, affecting nurses and hospital employees alike.
Our National Health Service may still be the best in the world, as we have grown so accustomed to reiterate, but it is nevertheless a service in the ranks of which enthusiasm is somewhat lacking. That perhaps is an understatement, but it is an understatement made deliberately. Of late we have seen many attempts on the part of the Government, sincere and well intentioned as they undoubtedly are, in our present difficult economic climate, to remedy the present state of affairs. I feel that every credit should be given to the efforts of Ministers and their staffs to solve the heavy problems with which they have been faced.
But, after all, the legislation for the abolition of pay beds, I suspect, precipitated a mountain of labour and produced only a mouse, and a somewhat impoverished church mouse at that. It has certainly made, I suspect again, no impression on our lengthening waiting lists. It has even given rise to the sad joke that our abortion Acts have added such a burden to the waiting lists of some hospitals that their waiting lists for abortions have now grown to over nine months. But all the attempts at creating common waiting lists for private and National Health Service patients, as the Wigoder Committee's Report only proved, have ended in failure. The only conclusion they reached was that in the last resort the waiting lists of our hospitals had to depend mainly on the medical staffs—a conclusion they might have known before they began their deliberations. So the whole issue of common waiting lists is back now to square one.
Meanwhile abolition of pay beds, phased as it was, has not added materially to our hospital resources, but only impoverished the health services still further. And has it finally brought peace to our hospital staffs? I suspect, again, the contrary. It has only maintained the spirit of discontent, created an attitude among the staffs dangerously close to beggar-my-neighbour, and certainly done nothing at all to shorten the waiting lists or to improve the lot of our long-suffering patients. I make this assertion subject to correction by my noble friend the Minister who is to reply, and I hope in his reply he will be able to

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prove me wrong and give us the exact figures of the reduction in hospital waiting lists following the first phase of the closure of 1,000 pay beds.
The uncertainty that prevails about recruitment of new students to our medical schools, fortunately, has not affected the quality of new entrants to the profession. There, at least, competition for entry is intense, morale is high, and the quality of intending students is as excellent today as it has ever been in the past. The desire to serve, to join the ranks of those who are striving to alleviate pain and conquer disease—that urge among our young people today is one of the most heartening factors in the gloom which at times tends to surround the outlook of our National Health Service. It is a factor which must be maintained during the years of training and apprenticeship, and afterwards harnessed for the benefit of our patients.
I would far rather we created too many new doctors than too few, and used our existing medical schools to the utmost of their capacity, despite the anticipated fall in our population. There is a crying need today all over the world for more doctors, and doctors of the highest quality, not only in the oil-rich sheikhdoms of the Gulf but in all the poverty stricken developing countries, with their teeming millions of population and their appallingly high birth-rates, so that, unlike our teachers, no doctor need ever remain unemployed. There are so many outlets through international sources, through the World Health Organisation, through our missionary societies abroad, where the services of any medical men found surplus to our own internal needs can be usefully employed. Look wherever you will—Africa, India, the Far East, South America, the Caribbean—the medical services are poorly developed per head of the population, and the need for medical aid is more insistent than ever.
What then is to be done in this country? I would suggest that three things are urgently necessary, though hard enough to achieve. First, to restore morale throughout the health services not only by means of pay, prospects and career structures, as has already been mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Young, but also by infusing among hospital staffs a new spirit of service and dedication with a realisation that, however, severe their own economic
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hardships, they are less than the physical sufferings of the hospital patients whom they have been recruited to serve. There is need today for a higher spirit of teamwork, even of self-discipline, for without these no hospital can prosper; and for recognition that the medical staffs are the keystone of the hospital arch, eroded though it may have been of late. For if the keystone crumbles the whole edifice will collapse.
Secondly, even today in the midst of our strained economic situation, more financial help for our hospital services is unavoidable, and excessive cuts in some directions could only lead to further deterioration. Thirdly, known glaring instances of waste in the National Health Service, especially in the hospitals, must be dealt with. Here constructive suggestions by the hospital staffs should be invited and a spirit of co-operation encouraged throughout medical staffs to remedy known waste both of manpower, especially on the administrative side, and of material resources. I hope that many more discussions on the National Health Service will take place from time to time in your Lordships' House, and that all our future debates may he held in a far more hopeful atmosphere than that which surrounds us here today.
3.59 p.m.
Lord PLATT: My Lords, ever since 15th February 1967 I seem to have made periodic speeches on the subject of the National Health Service. The date is firmly in my mind because it was then that I made my maiden speech on the subject, and the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, said that he was the first to congratulate me from those Benches. Now I can tell him I am the first to congratulate him from these Benches. I think he made a splendid speech. He raised matters of great importance, some of which have also been mentioned by other speakers and some not. I should like to refer to one or two things he said. He referred to what I call the two recent disasters to the National Health Service; namely, the reorganisation, and the phasing out of pay beds. He spoke especially for long-stay patients. I hope that the noble Lord who replies on behalf of the Government will be able to say something helpful to him on this subject.

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It is one about which I have no really practical experience.
The noble Lord, Lord Auckland, also mentioned two other matters to which I should like briefly to refer before I make some more general remarks. He spoke of kidney machines. I should like to ask the Minister pointblank: Is this not the only case since the introduction of the National Health Service in, I believe, 1948, where a deadline has been set, so that if one is below the age of 15 or above a certain age one cannot have a kidney machine or a transplant? I think that it is the only case.
That is not to say that people have not died through lack of facilities in hospitals. For instance, the local community or village hospital could not have the very latest facilities for cardiac surgery. There are plenty of instances where the patient has been unable to receive aid in time. There have been instances—and the discovery of penicillin was one—where a new and important remedy has been discovered and for a time was in very short supply. Those things cannot be helped, but I should like to know whether anyone can quote an instance where a cut-off has been made because we cannot provide the service, and where people have been turned down for treatment simply because they are above or below a certain age.
I wish to refer again to questions which others have raised and which I did not intend to mention because I have spoken on them in previous debates. I shall not bore noble Lords with all the details on the issue of foreign doctors. This problem exists at registrar level—that is, sub-consultant level—in other countries. In the United States of America 50 per cent. of those doctors come from overseas and only very few are from Britain; in Western Germany and all parts of the world where medicine has developed so rapidly that it needs a staff of people with this particular level of expertise. This is not simply due to a shortage of doctors, because if sufficient doctors were to qualify to fill all those posts, most of them would have nothing else to do for the rest of their lives.
We must remember that a consultant holds his post for an average of 30 years, during which time perhaps 20 or more young men will pass through his unit as
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registrars or in similar posts. When the consultant finally retires he leaves but one vacancy. The very simplest arithmetic will show that we must fill these posts in some other way. Many of these young men will, rightly and properly, go into general practice, where I am sure they will be very welcome. Nevertheless, there is this arithmetic gap which most people seem to pass over and say, "We do not have enough doctors because of all the foreign gentlemen around". That is largely, though not entirely a fallacy.
Noble Lords will be glad to know that I shall not repeat all that I have said on previous occasions. However, I must reiterate one or two remarks because there are certain principles of which we are in danger of losing sight. In this to a considerable extent I shall be drawing on personal evidence, which, I have given to the Royal Commission on the National Health Service. The Health Service has been a boon to millions of people; that is a truism or, as some noble Lords may prefer, a platitude. This is in danger of being forgotten, especially by those who did not know what the medical profession and the service to the patient was like before the introduction of the Health Service. In the old days we had the bankrupt voluntary hospital and a low standard of hospital service in a large number of provincial towns, with the exception, usually, of their teaching hospitals.
There are two reasons why people do not seem to bear in mind the boons of the Health Service. One is the constant denigration of the Service by the British Medical Association and similar organisations, and the fact that right from the beginning the then secretary to the BMA, who shall be nameless, told all the doctors to boycott the new Service and not join it.
Lord HILL of LUTON: My Lords, the noble Lord will go down in history as a distinguished diagnostician, but not as an accurate historian.
Lord PLATT: My Lords, I listened to some of the speeches myself. I do not want to dwell on that. These tactics are bound to have at least two effects. The first is that they build up a grievance, because one cannot get doctors to boycott a Service without building up a grievance. Then one is never quite sure how much of

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the discontent is due to the grievance and how much is real and due to the defects of the Service, of which, of course, there are plenty. This leads to a lowering of morale and the maximum of between the Government and the doctors, whereas the maximum amount of co-operation is the only solution to most of the problems facing the Health Service.
I think that I may now skip some of my notes, although not because of any interventions that have been made. We should bear in mind three important principles. One, which I have just enunciated, is that we shall never succeed without the maximum amount of co-operation between the Government and the doctors. I am not convinced that in the 30 years since the setting up of the Health Service we have had maximum co-operation on either side. I blame neither the doctors nor the Department.
The second principle is that, whatever may be the calls from the far Left for a wholly illusory egalitarianism, one just cannot mount a good Health Service without the willing participation of the doctors, even though one's political views may not always coincide with theirs. In that context the phasing out of pay beds has been an absolute disaster. Various speakers have said that it does not seem to have done anyone any good.
If the noble Baroness, Lady Lee of Asheridge, were present, she would remind us that when the Health Service was introduced it was decided that there should be amenity beds and that by paying a modest fee—which I believe was five guineas a week (which sounds like pocket money for a child nowadays)—one could have the benefit of privacy and so on, though it would not lead to better treatment or to jumping the waiting list. I should like to point out that, from a practical point of view, that is quite impossible. Presumably amenity beds are set aside for patients who want to pay to have amenity beds. Either we have enough or more to spare of those beds, in which case patients will jump the queue, or else we do not have enough, in which case those amenity beds will be filled by National Health Service patients who are not paying for amenity beds in any case. Even that does not solve the question of queue-jumping.
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Certainly the phasing out of pay beds does not solve any of those questions. For the phasing out of pay beds to be introduced by a Socialist Government is quite surprising. One would think that it is almost a deliberate attempt to divide medicine into one kind for the rich and one kind for the less rich—one cannot say poor nowadays. It is the most dangerous development in medicine. You appoint the very best people, who build up tremendous reputations for themselves, sometimes for their hospital, for their patients, and you want them to work in the hospital to which they owe their loyalty. Let us suppose, for instance, it is St. Bartholomew's Hospital; do you say that if you see private patients you must see them in St. John's Wood, or something like that? The whole thing is so ridiculous that I cannot think how it ever came about. However, it did, but I am glad to hear that it is believed that it is not a success. I wished the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, the very worst success for his committee the other day, which he took with very good grace.
On the doctors' side there has been a lack of co-operation among themselves. There are obvious ways of reducing waiting lists. I do not say that they can be done in every hospital or done in a matter of weeks, but wherever a deliberate challenge has been made and doctors and hospital staffs have got together to reduce waiting lists, they have always succeeded in doing so. What is more, a lot of the waiting lists are to some extent bogus. Large numbers of them are for children waiting for hospital beds for tonsils and adenoids, which, in most instances, would be better left where they are. I think the doctors have not collaborated even among themselves to try to abolish other abuses. This question of queue-jumping is in some hospitals, I am sure, quite serious and should be tackled within the profession, because I do not see how administrators are going to tackle it at all.
That leads me to another very important principle. It is absolutely naive to imagine that the faults of the Health Service can be put right by administrative action. They cannot. I think that the so-called reorganisation, which I often call the disorganisation, of the Health Service, is a good example of this. In that respect, I should like to read a

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short extract from one of the famous CIBA Foundation conferences on health care, which was held in 1976, in which one of the members of the conference, himself a hospital administrator, said about the reorganisation of the National Health Service:
"The main aims are presumably operational integration and better planning of services…The main problem was whether it could achieve these aims…without introducing a stultifying and expensive bureaucracy…on the evidence of the first 18 months the basic problem has not been overcome and an administrative bureaucracy, in the pejorative sense of the word, has been created".
Another principle which I think we should embrace—perhaps that is the word—is that, if you are to judge any new venture in the Health Service, the best criterion on which to judge it is what effect it will have on the reputation of British medicine at home and abroad, because in the long run the benefit to the patient depends on that. The reputation of British medicine, in spite of all that you hear said about it almost every day, is still very high both at home and abroad. It is high for its honesty, its integrity, and the skill of the people who work in the hospitals.
If we were to forget about equal opportunities, which are impossible to achieve, and were to think now of what effect this will have on the reputation of British medicine, we might get a little further in the way of co-operation between the profession and the Department. One final point. The noble Lord, Lord Auckland, referred to strike action and picketing. I was not quite sure why he did not condemn what I call the strike action by junior doctors, and the work to rule—fancy having to use that expression about my profession!—of the consultants. I think that those were two big blots which the profession should never have allowed to materialise.
4.16 p.m.
Lord HAWKE: My Lords, having no administrative experience of the National Health Service I feel some degree of temerity in getting up to talk about it. However, I am a user, and on the whole it has not done me too badly; but I admit that some of my more serious complaints have been dealt with in the
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private sector. Nobody can deny that some of the delays are rather horrible, and my medical friends say that the whole Service is going downhill. They blame first of all the Conservative Government for their passion for reorganisation, and the Labour Government for their passion for egalitarianism.
I am rather inclined to think that there may be deeper factors still at work, and they are that medical science is progressing at a far faster rate than the national product, and also that we are an ageing population. The net result of this is that the traditional proportion of the national wealth which has been devoted to health in the past is now proving quite inadequate. It has to go round a larger number of people, and if they are to have the best and most modern treatment it has to provide much more expensive treatment. Therefore, we have to find a lot more money. Of course on health the sky is the limit. I do not hold myself up to adjudge exactly how high the sky should be, but there has to be a lot more money. It cannot come out of the Budget because the British people are already grossly over-taxed in the Budget. There would be a revolt. We have to find new sources which would be acceptable to the British people.
The idea would be if people paid a considerable, or a definite, proportion for all the services they received, but great complications arise there. There are the exceptions. There is the splendid myth about the old age pensioners. We are all supposed to be paupers, and those hundreds of thousands, and perhaps even millions of us who are not paupers benefit greatly from this myth because we get a lot of things at the public expense which we do not in the least deserve. Nevertheless, this myth persists, that anybody who is on an old age pension cannot afford anything, and therefore they would have to be excused charges. Then of course the Left Wing would create a tremendous rumpus. Nye Bevan would be quoted and misquoted ad lib, notwithstanding the fact that, as regards incomes and wages, he lived in a completely different era from the present. Moreover, and perhaps most important of all, the doctors might create a fuss about collecting the money in their surgeries, and so on.

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No, we might try something better. I suggest that we might have an accident levy. After all, the National Health Service spends a lot of money on rehabilitating people who half kill themselves on the roads. Why not put 1p on petrol as an accident levy? It spends a great deal of money easing the dying from lung cancer. Why not have a levy of 1p per packet on cigarettes, and call it the lung cancer levy?
I suggest that in addition we should have a national lottery in aid of hospitals. This has been done in Rhodesia and, I believe, in certain countries in Europe. If we are not prepared to stomach any of those sources of revenue, the next best I can think of is an increase in the employee's portion of the National Insurance stamp; the employer's portion is already much bigger than that of the employee's and, in any event, an increase in the employer's contribution goes straight on to prices and sends them up, so for this reason it should be an employee's levy.
As my noble friend Lady Young rightly said, all these things would have to be explained to the public. It would have to be made clear that the money was for doctors, nurses and other facilities, and not for spoiling a new brand of bureaucrats, which I am afraid is what the British people may suspect. We need more doctors, nurses and ancilliary services so that people may be given a better service generally; one gets a very quick examination from the doctor these days, and it is intolerable that hospital waiting lists for diseases which, in medical parlance, are called not dangerous but which may be hideously uncomfortable, are months' long. If the results are seen and if such matters are properly explained, the end will be considered to have justified the means and the British people will not grudge the extra they have paid by way of some additional levies.
4.22 p.m.
Baroness FAITHFULL: My Lords, I seek to speak briefly on two aspects of the National Health Service, a Service which has been, and even now should be, something of which we can be proud. Nevertheless, we should surely temper our pride with self-criticism, and we are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Auckland,
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for giving us this opportunity to look at the present difficulties, of which there are many.
I wish to touch on two aspects, first the recruitment, training and morale of the nursing profession, and secondly an aspect of management as between hospitals and the Regional and Area Health Boards. Let me first, however, take up a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Young, concerning the nursing profession. I also seek to know from the Minister why there are 3,821 trained nurses out of work on the one hand, and why, on the other, on 11th May 1977, at their congress in Bournemouth, members of the nursing profession posed certain difficulties of which I will mention a few. For example it was said by a nurse that it was ridiculous that untrained staff should still be left in charge of wards. Later somebody at the congress said that nurses knew that proper standards of care were not being met and that grave injustice was being done to patients and their relatives who did not realise the situation.
Although Lord Auckland spoke about hospitals, I wish to draw attention to community care and preventive work in the community. At that congress it was said by a community nurse that in 1975 his department made 147,000 visits with a staff of 61 and that last year they made 159,000 visits with a staff of 57. If the hospitals cannot cope with all the patients, then surely—in any case it would be right—we should carry out preventive medicine with community nurses in our areas.
There is a real difficulty here and I seek the Minister's views on the Briggs Report in which it was recommended that the age of entry for training should be reduced. Would that be wise? There are two channels of entry; the girl of 18 who has 0 and A levels, and the girl of 16 leaving school who, at the age of 17, wants to train as a nurse. The latter, if helped in the right way, has much to offer. However, in my view they should not start their training until 18, first doing two years in allied professions—working in a children's or old people's home or perhaps as nursing auxiliaries in specialised hospitals—thus experiencing gradual exposure to the responsibilities and emotional shocks of illness. Of the 18 year olds, I would say that they also need a time of adaptation to the rigours and joys of nursing.

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The early achievement of qualification often places responsibility too soon on too young a nurse at too early a stage, and in her own interest this is perhaps not wise nor in the interest of the patient. Indeed, I would say that it is far better for a girl to feel she is working towards a career.
There seems to be a slight dilemma which I hope the Minister can explain. Have we in this country an adequate number of tutors in nursing qualified enough to teach, to inspire and have time to support each individual nurse in training, thus ultimately turning out nurses of the highest and best quality? If highly trainined nurses are removed from the wards to be tutors, what then happens in the wards when there are not enough adequately trained older women to supervise the patients? It seems from the figures that this is a very real dilemma, and I hope the Minister will explain how we are to overcome it.
I support the noble Lord, Lord Segal, because I, too, am not in the least worried at our having more nurses in training, and afterwards trained, than we can use. I am sure that throughout life the nursing qualification for any woman is a great asset. It is unlikely in this country, though not impossible, that we shall at any time have an epidemic, but how glad we should be of any trained nurses More important perhaps, the Third World needs the kind of skilled nurses whom we produce in this country
My Lords, I turn to an aspect of management. I should like to ask the Minister whether he would agree that there is too wide a gap between, on the one hand, those responsible for patients in a hospital and the day-to-day running of that hospital—and I include all members of staff—and, on the other hand, the budgeting of the needs of that hospital. Would it not make for flexibility, efficiency, and a sense of responsibility, for each hospital to receive an allocation of finance each year and leave it to the hospital board, which might consist of all staff across all areas, to use the money as they see the needs? At present they are allocated money from the Area and Regional Boards, which are not involved in the day-to-day needs of the hospital, and with the best will in the world, they cannot see exactly what are the needs of a hospital at any point in time.
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The hierarchical structure is causing frustration, and diminishing a sense of responsibility. Of course there would need to be inbuilt safeguards. In my view the sector administrator should be in the hospital, and not at the Area Health Board. This may be a naive recommendation; it is a simple recommendation, but I believe that responsibility should be put where responsibility belongs.
Lastly, I should like to say that the hospitals have always belonged to the people—and they should belong to the people. We are short of money, and I do not recommend that there should be vast extra sums spent. But any community that has a hospital in its area, and which has a very good and committed hospital league of friends, will seek to raise money for areas where the National Health Service cannot meet the needs; and in this way the community are involved in the National Health Service, in the hospital in their area, and with the patients who are in that hospital.
4.32 p.m.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNSIDE: My Lords, I am very glad that we are having a Royal Commission on the National Health Service, because from all the very interesting speeches made this afternoon one realises how many very important aspects of the National Health Service require investigation. I have quite a number of points that I should like to talk about, and I will try to be as brief as I can; but I should warn the House that I could speak for two hours on this subject—not that I am in the least likely to do so. As I have, for a very long time, and very proudly, been a vice-president of the Royal College of Nursing, I have had sent to me—as I think my noble friend Lady Faithfull has, too—the evidence from the Royal College of Nursing that has been submitted to the Royal Commission. When one sees the size of that document, one realises that for a very long time the nursing profession has required many things to be done for it which no Government apparently have been able to do.
I should like to add one other point here. For a very long time when I was in another place I represented the physiotherapists who, very cleverly, I thought,

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had a special committee with a well-trained and highly respected secretary to deal with the requirements and needs of the physiotherapists. As a matter of fact, I do not think that anybody has mentioned the physiotherapists and their problem in the debate today. They are very important people in the Hospital Service. So I should like to ask the noble Lord who is to reply, whether the Royal Commission will have taken, as I am sure it will have done, evidence from the physiotherapists' organisation, because it is most important that when the Royal Commission reports it deals with all these very important matters which will, as I believe, make all the difference in the world—
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I hesitate to interrupt the noble Baroness, but in case she intended to put similar questions to me on other disciplines, I should like to say that it is for the Royal Commission to take evidence from any person, or from any source, and it is for any professional organisation, or for any individual, to submit written evidence, or even ask to give oral evidence. This is not a matter over which my Department or the Government have any jurisdiction at all.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDE: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord for intervening. Having been in another place for 38 years, I know only too well that it is most important to get those who answer from the Front Bench to debates of this kind to take an interest in what those who contribute to the debates say. I have a great respect for noble Lords who answer from either Front Bench, because I know that if they take an interest, and if they interest the Cabinet also in all the points made, it makes a considerable difference. Although I am not expecting that the noble Lord will answer the point that I made, I should like him to know that at some time or other I may ask him to answer a question which may have been considered by the Royal Commission. I cannot ask the Royal Commission now to give me an answer, though I could write to it. However, I am not very keen on writing. I like to see things in print, which I can quote if I wish. I thank the noble Lord very much for intervening, but I shall hold him partly responsible, in any case, for the interests of the physiotherapists whom nobody has mentioned this afternoon.
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I now want to turn to another point. I have quite a few points that I want to make, but I shall not be very long. I want to refer to the question of food in hospitals. Fortunately for me, I have been very healthy over the years, but I had an emergency operation for an appendix the other day, and I very nearly passed out. It struck me at the time that while some of the food which is provided in hospitals is very good indeed, it is a little worrying for people if, when they are feeling so ill that they can hardly read it, they are given a huge menu which suggests all kinds of things that can be ordered. So far as I was concerned, I could not eat any of it. So I had to have simpler things, such as scrambled eggs, fruit, and so forth, which I could enjoy.
There has been considerable criticism about hospital food. Much of it is probably unnecessary criticism because I think that the catering staffs in hospitals do their best to provide the nicest food that they can for the patients. But to have a choice of four or five main dishes every day seems to be going rather far from the point of view of Hospital Service expenditure. I wonder whether it would be possible to have simpler, more suitable, food which the patients would probably prefer if they are really ill. I hope that the noble Lord will not want to say in reply that it is somebody else's duty to raise this question; if nobody else has raised it, then at least I have raised it here, and I put it forward as a suggestion.
I turn to the next point that I want to raise, which I also believe is very important. I think it is fair to say (though, naturally, it does not rest on the noble Lord who is to reply) that the country is very grateful indeed to all those who serve in the National Health Service. We are very proud of them. Wherever they come from, they do their best; but there is no doubt that there is a great deal of criticism of the general administration at the top.
I want to go on to the next point, which is that, when the National Health Service was set up, it took over, so far as I can understand it, all the private hospitals and the private endowments, too. I should like to know whether we could have a list (I would not mind if the noble Lord had it printed, because he obviously could not provide it otherwise)

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showing how much money was taken over by way of endowments to private hospitals which came into the National Health Service. I should like it in detail; and I should like then to know, if we could be told, how that money has been spent. Because I may be wrong, my Lords, but my own view is that regional hospital services are sometimes so short of money that they spend endowments which have been made to private hospitals which they have taken over rather than maintain those private hospitals, many of which have done wonderful work for the people for whom they were provided. So perhaps in the Recess, when he has not quite so much work to do, the noble Lord will circulate in an appropriate manner a list of all the private hospitals and the endowments which were taken over, how much they amounted to and how the money was spent.
I ask the noble Lord that because, of course, upon that information I want to raise, as I always try to, a case in my own part of the world. I know that your Lordships sometimes get very tired of my referring to that part of the country from which I come, but I am a great believer in experience, and experience in my own part of the world has given me quite a lot of knowledge—and I now come to the point I want to raise about what was known as the Sanderson Home for Crippled Children. This home was built by a very well known family in the North, and was heavily endowed. It had lovely grounds and gardens. It is still there, but there has been a lot of controversy about it recently. There are still a large number of crippled children in that home, but, fortunately, with the improvements in medical science not quite so many homes especially for crippled children are perhaps so necessary.
However, although there are other beds in that hospital and there is a wonderful staff working in it, it was suddenly decided by the Regional Board that the crippled children should be transferred to the new Freeman Hospital, for which I may say we in the North of England have waited, waited and waited—your Lordships know what I mean: it is almost there, but not quite. Now it has been reported that these children are going to be transferred to rooms on the fifth floor of this hospital, where there are no balconies. There is
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no garden at this hospital, and the children do not want to go there. Certainly the people who were interested in the Sanderson Home do not want them to go there, because the Sanderson Home has a lovely garden; the children were always able to be pushed out into the garden, and they enjoy it. I think this is an absolutely immoral decision, and that is one of the reasons why I am asking about the endowment of private hospitals which have been taken over by the National Health Service.
In addition to that, when this matter was raised by me and other people in my part of the world—and I think my noble friend Lady Masham is also very interested in this hospital; she has done a great deal of work making inquiries about it—one of the reasons given to me was that the second floor in the Sanderson Home was not filled up by crippled children. I was told, in fact, that there were vacant beds. If there were vacant beds, why were those beds not filled by many of the people who have waited so long for beds in my part of the world? We have a very big waiting list indeed. Why could those beds not be filled? They have a very good nursing profession in the hospital, they have very good physiotherapists, and everything appears to be available. Yet that hospital is to be closed down, while those crippled children are going to be stuck in a new hospital, five floors up, I think, with no balconies and no ability to enjoy themselves in the garden. It seems to me to be a most regrettable position, and I should like to know the answer to it.
In addition to that, we had another big children's hospital in Newcastle-on-Tyne, the Fleming Hospital. Curiously enough, many years ago, when I was in the VAD, I did my first service as a VAD in the Fleming Hospital, so I have always taken a great interest in it. Then, suddenly, just like that, it was announced that it was going to be closed. I of course cannot tell whether that hospital is not really needed for children; but there it is. It is a perfect hospital, and it could have been used for housing people who want beds. I was up North last week-end, and I was told that it had been announced on the radio and in the paper that both the Fleming Hospital and the Sanderson Home were going to be pulled down. To me, that really seems a most unfortunate situation. Your Lordships know very

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well how outspoken people are up in the North, but their view of the National Health Service is anything but friendly, is perhaps even accurate, and certainly is not flattering.
My Lords, we in the North have a very good Regional Health Service Board. We have a very distinguished chairman indeed; and I am glad to say that on that Board in the last few years, for the first time, we have had a State-registered nurse from the Royal College of Nursing. We are very proud of this; and I think that a State-registered nurse on a Board of that kind can do a great deal of good and be very helpful indeed. What I am not sure about is this, because, of course, being only a Back-Bencher when I was in another place, I have not seen all the papers. Now we scramble around trying to get the facts and trying to see if anybody can give us a little bit of additional information about what is going on. Was it not realised by whoever it was who took the responsibility of announcing over the radio and in the Press that this action was going to be taken what effect that would have on the local people?
I think that whoever took that decision cannot be very much in tune with what local people feel about matters. We feel tremendously involved in what happens to people living in my part of the world; and I know that some of the officials, who are very good—and if one knows them very well they are kind enough to say, "How awful!"—feel the same. One never knows, of course, what representations they are able to make, to whom they make them and what action is taken. I think that communication in these great matters of the Health Service is very important, because these things matter tremendously to the local public. I should therefore like to know the answer to that.
I think I have covered everything although, as I say, I could go on talking for about two hours; but I should like to know about some of these matters. I hope the noble Lord who is to reply will not say anything about this not being his responsibility. I think that Cabinets of Governments of all Parties have a very real responsibility. Perhaps the noble Lord could tell me whether he will read all the evidence that has been given, because then perhaps he would know a
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little more than he does about all the problems that have cropped up in my part of the world. I am glad we have had this debate and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, for having thought of it. Perhaps we shall not have to wait too long before hearing from the noble Lord on the Front Bench about what has happened to all the important and interesting suggestions and recommendations that have been made.
I am glad to have been here today. I have a great admiration for the Royal College of Nursing and for the physiotherapists, for the consultants and for the doctors. I should like to say how sorry I am that the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Fawley, is not on the list. He is probably too busy to speak. That happens to a great many very important medical men; they have not the time to do all the work they are called upon to do. I should have liked to hear his contribution. Perhaps I shall go to see him. He sometimes gives me injections against flu. I will go to see him one day and ask why he was not able to be here and what he would have said had he been here.
I hope that the next time we have a debate on this important matter of the Royal Commission inquiring into all the necessities in the National Health Service, it will have gone forward a long way; so that we can continue to find out what the recommendations were and whether the Government have been able to implement them.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, if the noble Baroness is really in need of seeing her doctor, she will find that he is behind her.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDE: My Lords, all I can say is he is a very nice doctor. I am delighted that he occasionally can look after me. His name was not on the list and I shall not forget to ask him all the questions that I said publicly that I would ask.
4.52 p.m.
Viscount WAVERLEY: My Lords, in 1959 my noble friend the late Lord Stonham initiated a debate to draw attention to the problems of the Hospital Service. He excluded the teaching

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hospitals from his survey knowing, as he said, that others with more intimate professional relationships with them would do so, and do it better. He preferred to confine himself to consideration of what are now called district general hospitals. His administrative talents and charitable attitudes served numberless of those hospital committees. He understood. He was a link between my profession and the public. May I join other noble Lords in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, for contriving today's debate. I hope that it will bear fruit for the matter is most urgent.
At the time of that debate, in 1959, I was consultant physician on the staff of one of our larger district general hospitals and had been so for ten years. I am proud that I retain such a position today. We realised that not only the welfare of patients but our whole reputation in the field of international medicine was increasingly dependent on those hospitals. They were acquitting themselves most admirably. We were all intensely proud. This pride and the high morale it engendered gradually became eroded over the years—increasingly after the reorganisation of the Health Service in 1971.
Your Lordships debated this reorganisation on a Motion by the noble Lord Lord Aberdare in 1971. If your Lordships will bear with me for a moment I should like to repeat what I said then. I said:
"Since the appointed day the status of district hospitals has been steadily rising. They have therefore been able to attact consultants of the highest calibre. This in turn has attracted correspondingly excellent junior medical staff. Success breeds success. Medical students have increasingly been seconded from their teaching schools to district hospitals for elective or longer periods. All in the present district hospital garden may not be lovely, but there is at least a garden. If, unhappily, my anxieties prove well-founded, and if, for administrative and financial reasons—or both—the status of district hospitals declines, the future will be grim indeed. In truth, my Lords, there will be no future, only a progressive slither of a vital part of this country's hospital services into mediocrity, and no chance then of recovery in any foreseeable future; for emigration of too many of our brightest young medical people will, I fear, have seen to that." [Official Report, 29/11/71; col. 117].
The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, when winding up that debate, took me gently to ask for being, as he put it,
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"a little too gloomy about the future of the district general hospital".
I only wish that my anxieties had proved unfounded, but, alas! they have not. Administrative unwieldiness coupled with insufficient money to maintain existing services, far less expand them, generated a crisis of morale and a loss of pride in the Hospital Service particularly among those medically qualified in all seniority grades and in all specialities.
A most significant attribute of such a crisis of morale may be found in the consideration of numbers of applicants for vacant appointments. I shall do no more than to quote from the letter to The Times newspaper to which the noble Baroness, Lady Young, has already referred, from the President of the Hospital Consultants and Specialists Association. It was headed:
"No Britons apply for National Service posts".
It went on:
"In 1964, a training post in general surgery at Wolverhampton attracted 26 applicants. These registrars were trained at the following medical schools; St. Thomas's Hospital, 15; Melbourne, 1; Saint Bartholomews Hospital, 1; Charing Cross Hospital, 1; Birmingham, 2; Newcastle, 1; University College Hospital, 1; St. George's Hospital, 1; Manchester, 1; Guy's Hospital, 1; and the Middlesex Hospital, 1".
It went on:
"The latest advertisement for the identical post has attracted 21 applicants from the following countries: Iraq, 5; Afghanistan, 1; Sudan, 2; Pakistan, 1; India, 3; Egypt, 5"—
and, rather quaintly—
"USSR, 4".
Although, my Lords, this refers only to surgical registrars similar disastrous reports may be obtained from all specialities and the calamitous trend is mirrored in applications for consultant vacancies.
My Lords, the district general hospital service must be salvaged. It requires much more money. It requires more imaginative administration. It requires more representative administration. It especially requires more medically qualified members of administrative committees. But, above all, I plead with ferocious humility—I am sure these can co-exist—for the utmost harmony in a common endeavour to restore our district hospitals to their former happiness and stature. Nothing less will suffice. They deserve this from us, and if we succeed we shall be esteemed by people coming after us.
5 p.m.
Baroness HORNSBY-SMITH: My Lords, I join in congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, on having introduced this debate, and, indeed, admire his persistence in sticking to a topic and raising it as he has on more than one occasion—a topic and a subject to which he and his family have devoted so much public service. It took a long period of years to produce the plans for the reorganisation of the Health Service, from which we now suffer. They were well advanced under the late Mr. Richard Crossman when he was in the Ministry and before Sir Keith Joseph set foot in the Ministry of Health. Both Governments share some responsibility for the bureaucratic colossus which, rightly or wrongly, has evolved from the revised Health Service.
I welcome very much the Royal Commission which can take a long hard look again at what has been the result in practice of the high hopes that we had for the reorganisation of the Health Service. First, I think it has destroyed the democratic and local participation which was so valuable under the old hospital management committees. Today, in control locally, there are district committees composed entirely of officials and medical staff within the Service. We have lost the devoted laymen with vast practical experience in finance and working relations, experience in community and social problems, who so ably served—as have so many Members of this House—Regional Boards and/or hospital management committees under the old régime. They knew their local community; they were a contact between the community and the officials. The current community health councils on which the laymen, the doctors and others are represented, are no substitute. They are without teeth. They are frustrated and just about as powerful in influencing policy as are the unfortunate users' associations attached to the nationalised industries.
As one who in six years in the Ministry of Health visited over 300 of our hospitals and met as many boards and hospital management committees, I deeply regret that the revamped Health Service, instead of being a vast human operation in touch with people, has become as remote and bureaucratically controlled as a nationalised industry. The Area Boards control
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vast catchment areas, from about the largest, around 2 million people, down to the smallest, about 150,000. They meet once a month; they have to deal with a colossal programme concerning dozens of hospitals, ambulance services, welfare services, all at a meeting which may take three hours. So more and more decision rests with those six officials on the district committee. The lay approach, had a vast field of experience. If the noble Lord who is to reply differs from me on other items, I am sure he will agree with all his experience of the Service about the enormous wealth, contribution and contact that the professional laymen brought to those committees. Today, trying to get hold of one of the god-like officials of the district committees is like trying to telephone the noble Lord who adorns the Woolsack at any given time. So we welcome the Royal Commission.
We want the Health Service to regain its human face; we want community contact through those public figures to represent us and speak for us, and bring their considerable expertise in varying forms to bear upon the use of the Service. Nowhere has there been a greater lowering of morale than among the medical professionals in the hospitals. The medical brain drain is a disaster, as was so ably detailed by the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley. The new proposals of the EEC for harmonisation will exacerbate the problem. I cannot see many highly-paid doctors on the Continent opting to come here. I fear that many of our doctors will opt to practice on the Continent and add to the brain drain which we already have to Canada, Australia, and, in particular, America.
When Mrs. Barbara Castle was Minister of Health, while she denied the consultants their legitimate increases, she yielded—not, I am suggesting, without justice—on the question of under-manning and the consequential abnormal hours worked by junior doctors. But instead of giving them increased salaries commensurate with their skill and training, she gave them overtime. I wonder whether she then envisaged what damage she was doing to the future of the consultants' service. What is happening now is that the junior doctors, experienced and qualified after several years, who are capable of being offered consultants' posts, are refusing them because it will

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mean a cut in pay. This is a disaster for the Service which has always prided itself on its highly skilled and professional consultants' service. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Segal, that many of the waiting lists in many areas are not due to lack of beds, they are due to a shortage of specialists to perform the operations and treatments needed.
Then, how we treat our specialists! In one great London hospital the consultants are denied a private room where they can get together and discuss their cases, new methods and new treatments in privacy with their professional colleagues. Yet, the NUPE representative has asked, demanded and received a room to himself to conduct his union affairs. For a year he has claimed that his union duties take up 100 per cent. of his time. Ten hours a week—a quarter of his weekly time—would have been adequate to look after the needs of 200 members of his union in that hospital. The hospital pays his full wages for not performing any of his hospital duties. He also represents staff in other hospitals, where his employing board of governors have no jurisdiction and he claims overtime from that board for the visits and times that he spends at the other hospitals. If the union want a full-time official, they should pay his wages from their own funds and not from the hard-pressed funds of the teaching hospital.
This brings me to the cuts in expenditure. The same hospital has had a 10 per cent. cut imposed on it, but it has also decreed that there must be no redundancies whatsoever. Where do the cuts fall? They fall on patient treatment, on food, on cleaning, on vital repairs—all items which affect the patient. The patient is the most important person in the hospital.
Now I turn to the leagues of friends. Minister after Minister, radio programmes, television programmes galore on Sunday, exhort us to do voluntary service, to help the old, to help the handicapped and to fill in the gaps in the system that the National Health Service cannot provide. Just listen to how some of the friends are treated. I am a founder member of a league of friends and proudly we raised the money for telephone trolleys that could go round the hospital so that patients, early every evening, could keep
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in touch with their relatives at home and tell Johnny to be a good boy and go to bed when his father told him and, if he was a good boy, he might have a brother or sister in about 10 days' time. We had a team of 40 volunteers who took these trolleys round the wards in the evenings, at no expense whatsoever to the hospital.
Then NUPE step in and demand to take the trolleys round—on overtime, of course, from six to eight—a complete and utter waste of public money, when that money could have been far better spent on providing the additional nurses that we need. There were heartbroken members of the friends who had spent 15 years giving their services, keeping to their rotas, refusing to do anything else on their rota night and providing additional comforts particularly for the geriatric wards—for example, they would write a letter for the old lady with arthritic hands to keep her in touch with her son in Canada; they would bring in a card that she wanted to send to her grandson for his birthday. None of these services NUPE do, and if we really want the great fund and wealth of warm-hearted volunteers that we have in this country to contribute in this fashion, as I am sure we all do, then, please, see that when they have not only initiated but wholly financed and serviced a service like this, we do not kick them in the teeth in this way.
Medically, we still have great consultancy services and we rival the most advanced countries in most medical research, but we are seeing now the human face of the Health Service being steadily obliterated. It is no longer the people's service; it has become the bureaucrats' paradise. And until we restore the community contact the Service will continue to decline, and, tragically, I believe we shall continue to lose some of our finest doctors, and medical and professional technicians as well, to countries abroad. We are proud of our Health Service, but unless we restore public and professional confidence in it, we shall no longer be worthy of the Health Service.
5.13 p.m.
Lord GISBOROUGH: My Lords, when I took advice for this debate I asked what the problems were. The answer came in

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one single word—money. I thought, therefore, that savings would be a good theme to try to speak on, and the first saving it appears one ought to look at, to my mind, is whether or not there are too many tiers. With the Area Health Authority, someone has to co-ordinate the districts and there are too vast a number of districts for the region to co-ordinate, so that therefore the area is a necessity. But one must question the need for the Regional Health Authority.
As I understand it, the Regional Authorities do strategic planning, which increasingly can be and is being done by the DHSS, particularly if they were to be devolved round the country to a greater extent. The other thing, of course, is the consultants' contracts which they would like to be done by the region, but one wonders whether, if they were done by the areas, the world would stop for them and whether that would not be perfectly adequate. After speaking to various people, I seriously wonder whether the regions could not be disbanded. I should be most interested to see whether it is possible to get an answer as to what it would save if the regions were to be disbanded.
The value of the return, where possible, of the hospital management boards has been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hornsby-Smith. Hospitals will increasingly get bigger and bigger and so the hospital management boards will increasingly be missed. Unfortunately, one inevitably gets the staff upset by people applying for their old jobs again, as happened with reorganisation, and so politically (with a small "p") it may never be possible. As new hospitals are built, one wonders whether at least the bigger hospitals could not be administered by hospital management boards rather than the districts. There is certainly a great need for the tidying up of the tier system and at the moment there is quite a lot of overlap between the Area and the district authorities, particularly on the development of services.
The noble Lords, Lord Amulree, and Lord Auckland, mentioned cottage hospitals. Although these are technically uneconomic to keep going, they provide a most valuable service for old people and for people recovering. One finds
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remarkably good relations with the staff in many of these hospitals, where they are known by their Christian names by the people who live there and by the families, relatives and friends who call. The benefit of all that may well outweigh the disadvantages of the small hospitals.
One then goes to the community health councils, which were set up comparatively recently, with their paid secretaries, paid assistants, members' expenses, and so on. They go so far as to advertise for complaints of the Hospital Service. One wonders what is the area chairman for and what is the Area Authority for. There is a team of officers: the medical officer, the nursing officer, the administrator, the treasurer, and, in our particular case in the Northern Area, we have 38 local authority representatives on that Area Health Authority. What need is there for yet another council breathing down the necks of the Area Authority? If it is necessary to have publicity so that people may know where to ring up and to invite complaints, surely the Area Authority can do what is needed and can publicise the names of the elected local authority people who are on that Area Authority. The public view is becoming increasingly known on the Area Authorities, and surely it is just as easy for somebody to contact a councillor as to contact a member of the health council. Also, of course, all planning by the Area Health Authority has to go to these community health councils and that results in delays, with inevitable expense. What happens is that things tend not to get done as a result. I should be most interested to hear whether it is possible to be told the cost of all these community health councils. Are they really necessary?
The abolition of pay beds has been mentioned. I am afraid this is a political matter (with a capital "P"). Wherever one goes and whoever one talks to in the Health Service, all doctors say the same thing: that private beds never held up or delayed public patients. There really was no logic to the demolition of the private beds. It was purely a political demand by ancillary staff, porters, cooks and so on. Now, in our area we have only 22 private beds out of a total of 4,600, and there is a likelihood that these will be further cut down. The reason is that statistically the occupancy of these beds is under 50 per cent. But, of

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course, that is not quite correct, because that occupancy is calculated on the number of nights occupied. These private beds are more and more occupied for day surgery and therefore do not show up in the figures. So it will be a great pity if the figure of 50 per cent. occupancy is used to demolish yet more private beds.
Inevitably there is a value in cash to the Health Service through these private beds, and it would be most interesting to know, if possible, how much money is now being sacrificed by the Health Service through the loss of the beds which have already been taken away. They constituted no loss to the public's use of the Health Service, and indeed I think that there was a gain to it. The ancillary staff insisted that they should be reduced, but surely the views of the thousands of people who wanted to use the pay beds should have been listened to as well.
The next saving consideration that I should like to mention will, I am sure, be most unpopular. When people who pay for rent, rates, light, food and so on have to go into hospital, they continue to make most of those payments, and they still get their pension, their pay, their unemployment money or whatever it may be. But I see no logical reason why they should not make a contribution towards the food that they eat in hospital. I do not suggest that they should make a contribution towards their accommodation, in addition to their rent. But, after all, in old people's homes they have to pay for their board and lodging, so why should they not contribute towards their food in hospital? The Hospital Service is not meant to be a social service in order to provide people with more cash; it cannot afford that. It is a means for getting people right—although we all know that there is more to it than that, with welfare and so on—and if people contributed towards the cost of their food, not even up to the full rate, it could bring in something like £200,000 annually in many areas, which would no doubt be most welcome.
I was most interested to hear my noble friend Lady Young speak about insurance and, being of the same political persuasion, what she said appealed to me. I was interested to hear about the Swiss system. Switzerland is a very old democracy—I think it is fair to say that it is a classless
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democracy, and a rather egalitarian country—and everybody there has to insure and they have to pay for their hospitalisation. If they cannot pay, their sons or parents are asked for the money and, if they cannot pay, cousins, friends and so on are asked. But if nobody can pay, the bill is torn up. It is a rugged but efficient system, and it seems to work. I am not advocating it here, but it is interesting that, in a country which can by no means be called Right Wing, that is a system which seems to work well.
I should like to say a word on drugs, because we all know that they are extremely expensive. I heard of one bottle of pills which cost more than £100. While one can debate the profits of drug companies, one is also very aware of the cost of research and development which is extremely high for drug manufacturers. But I still wonder whether there is enormous wastage of drugs through over-supply. One puts a bottle of pills in the cupboard, takes out two or three, and leaves the rest. When I have something wrong with me, which is very seldom, I may go for some pills. I take one, I think that I have cured myself and am all right, and all the rest are not used.
I remember that I once went to a boxing match, and the doctor who was sitting next to me said that the Norwegian, who had just won a match, had been to see him that morning and asked for a pain killer, because he had hurt his wrist. So the doctor gave him a pill and told him that, if he took it exactly half an hour before the boxing match, he would be all right. After this Norwegian had completely felled his English opponent, the doctor went around to see him and the Norwegian thanked him and said that what he had given him was absolutely marvellous. The doctor told me that what he gave him was half of a vitamin D tablet, which was equivalent to an orange, but the Norwegian was convinced it was what he needed and it worked.
There is also the question of the cost of modern drugs. I am sure that many doctors, in particular young doctors, read the appealing literature and the rather attractive names of some of the modern drugs, and are rather inclined to prescribe them because they are most fashionable, although in many cases they could recommend much cheaper but equally

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effective drugs. However, this is a technical matter and I am not qualified to form a strong opinion on that.
Furthermore, there is a great waste of food in hospitals. I believe the noble Baroness, Lady Ward, said that she was offered an enormous banquet after just coming out of the operating theatre. I have also been told that a great deal of food is thrown away in hospitals, and this is obviously waste which can and should be avoided. I think that the reorganisation is not an unqualified success, and there is a great deal of tidying up that should be done in the tier system to avoid duplication of responsibilities.
5.26 p.m.
Baroness MASHAM of ILTON: My Lords, I should first like to apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, for being late for this debate, but I had an appointment with the National Health Service. While I was at the hospital a few hours ago, a young consultant went up to the receptionist's desk to collect a package and he said: "I no longer work here. I am now in Harley Street". Perhaps this is what is happening too much. It is most worrying to see the resentment and the barriers which have built up within some of our hospitals among the medical staff and the hospital administrators. The doctors I have met have complained of inflexibility, and of being bogged down with paperwork and endless committees, unable to find the necessary time to do clinical work. There is disappointment that no funding was available for the post-registration diploma course in remedial therapy at Southampton University. This would have been a way of raising standards and giving opportunities for in depth training, but standards seem to be dropping fast.
Today I want to concentrate on the striving for survival of some of our splendid hospitals, which have been saving life and allieviating suffering. It is extraordinary, appalling and frightening to contemplate this. A few weeks ago, BBC television showed a film about the proposed closure of a well-equipped maternity hospital in Liverpool, and the world-renowned Birmingham accident hospital. It also showed the appalling waiting lists at Northampton. If these closures take place, it will not be just the
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doctors who leave the country; it will be the complete teams. It is no good hiding behind the cover of the fact that the Royal Commission on the National Health Service will be reporting in a few years' time. By then, at this rate, the hospitals will house only ghosts.
I should like to bring to your Lordships' attention today the serious problems currently affecting the spinal units in our hospitals. There is an inadequate service for spinal cord injuries, because the number of beds has been reduced in the last few years and no new units have so far been established. At the moment, there are only 156 beds in the whole of the South of England from Norfolk to Land's End including London. These are all at Stoke Mandeville Hospital, which is a unit which as been over-burdened for years. The number of patients with spinal cord injuries is increasing all the time, due to road, industrial and sporting accidents, as well as soldiers shot in Northern Ireland and a few non-traumatic cases. Over 6,000 patients have passed through this unit, and it is thought that by now about 2,000 will have died. There are about 4,000 patients who need check-ups yearly or two-yearly, and it is impossible for this to be done with the staff available. This does not include newly injured patients.
In 1975–1976 a ward was closed through lack of staff and industrial disputes; 14 patients who were on the waiting list died. The year before the closing of that ward only four patients died. At the moment there are 31 patients on the waiting list to go to the spinal unit. Two years ago it was thought that there would be a spinal unit at the Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital in London. I should be very interested if the noble Lord could find out why this unit has not materialised and let me know.
We have now been told that the Government are to open another unit at Odstock in Wiltshire but that this will take three years to establish. The hospital at Odstock has still not had the go-ahead to advertise the post for a doctor to start the unit. Whoever it is will need training. Can the Minister give an assurance that no more wards at Stoke Mandeville Hospital will be closed until the new unit at Odstock is functional? I believe that there is a need for two new units.

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It is surely logical that patients who are paralysed and do not feel below their injured cord should go to places where the medical and nursing staff are trained in caring for their many and varied problems. I have seen appalling cases of neglect through ignorance in general hospitals where moving a patient with an unstable spine is a danger, where the paralysed bladder is not understood and where the care of the skin is overlooked. The morale of the patient is of the utmost importance and support to shocked relatives is paramount. If the correct treatment is not available initially, extra time will be spent in hospital, so money is wasted.
The number of doctors with spinal experience now working in the National Health Service is diminishing. Two senior consultants have retired in the past year: Dr. Hardy from Sheffield last year and Dr. Walsh from Stoke Mandeville in the last few days. On behalf of their many grateful patients, I should like to take this opportunity to pay a tribute to the most humane service that these two fine consultants have given over the years. Had their last fews years in the National Health Service been less frustrating, they would not have chosen to retire early. So far, they have not been replaced. The reason may be that all the junior doctors who have been trained have gone back to their countries of origin.
Just before Dr. Hardy retired from his unit in Sheffield he invited me to spend a day at his hospital. He took me to a window and showed me a large new administrative block, carpeted throughout, which had sprung up since reorganisation. For 21 years he had been waiting for a day room for his patients, for which the money had been raised by the WRVS. They are still waiting for that day room.
Three years ago, a group of us started an association for spinal injuries. We are working with the Department of Health and Social Security to bring out helpful information. We shall go on trying to help and support patients and their families, but when the problem is serious, such as a blocked kidney or an acute abdominal emergency, an experienced doctor is needed to understand, diagnose and treat the ailment. At the present time, there is an acute shortage
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of spinal doctors and there are a great many worried patients.
It seems hard on a health region like Oxford to have to support a national unit like Stoke Mandeville which serves people from far and wide. If the National Health Service is truly national, then surely some national money ought to be given to hospitals which serve a national need and have an international reputation.
I should like to mention one last point of concern which has recently been brought to my notice. There are some unfortunate people who, because of extreme disability and lack of family support, have to live in hospital units attached to hospitals. There seems to be a move to insist that people should go to a unit near their place of origin, without any choice. Most people may want to be near home, but there may be some who would like to go to a place of a particular religious denomination or to be in a home with a friend. I hope that there will continue to be flexibility and a humane choice rather than mere administrative tidiness.
5.36 p.m.
Lord COLWYN: My Lords, before speaking for only a very few minutes I, too, should like to apologise to my noble friend Lord Auckland for not being here at the start of the debate. Several of my patients could not be persuaded that their appointments were less important than our debate this afternoon.
It is not unusual for concern to be expressed in this House and elsewhere about the state of the country's health services but now, as several noble Lords have said, the problems are of almost unprecedented proportions. As a dentist, I have about 1,300 colleagues in the Hospital Service. The problems they face in trying to prevent standards of patient care falling are the same as those which are faced throughout our hospitals—financial cutbacks and uncertainty, administrative delays, distorted pay structures, the inevitable inefficiency brought about by the separation of the National Health Service and private hospital practice.
I should like to mention two areas of particular difficulty. The first concerns the financing of Britain's 17 dental teaching hospitals. These hospitals exist

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primarily to train dentists rather than to meet the treatment needs of their surrounding communities, yet although they have a national training function there is no national machinery to ensure that they are adequately financed. The DHSS allocates funds to the health regions in a way which takes approximate account of the presence and size of teaching hospitals, but subsequent decisions on how these funds should be spent are made locally to meet local needs. At any level—region, area or district—the funds needed by dental hospitals can be diverted to other purposes in a way which is perfectly legitimate in terms of local patient need but which can nevertheless place dental education at serious risk.
A cut in the National Health Service funds to dental hospitals inevitably means less clinical experience for dental students and a lowering of dental educational standards. There may in general be good arguments against the central earmarking of National Health Service funds for specific purposes, but the way in which dental hospital finance must filter through the National Health Service administrative structure, tier by tier, has created severe uncertainty for the schools and made it difficult for them to function normally or to plan ahead. The problem has been aggravated recently by the recommendations of the Resource Allocation Working Party. The Working Party's intention is to direct funds to the regions on the basis of need, a principle with which it is difficult to argue, but their treatment of dental hospital financing has been ill-researched and arbitrary and has made it even more difficult for the schools to secure the funds that they need. I ask the Minister for an assurance that his Department recognises the special problems of dental hospital financing. Also, I ask him to consider introducing more centralised financing arrangements.
Finally, I should like to draw attention to the pay problems of doctors and dentists. The House will be familiar with the anomalies which the last two years of pay policy have created at the higher levels of income in the public sector. Nowhere are they worse than in the National Health Service. As the independent review body on doctors and dentists remuneration said a few weeks ago in their seventh report:
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"We doubt whether so many and varied anomalies can have been created in any other single field … in our experience no organisation can be expected to function effectively if the pay structure itself is so wracked with anomalies that injustice is manifest within it".
My Lords, the patience of the medical and dental professions is almost exhausted. If steps are not taken soon to restore normal pay structures, incentives and differentials the damage done to the Health Service may be irreversible. I ask the Minister to state what action the Government propose to take to remedy the problems described so clearly by the Woodroofe review body.
5.41 p.m.
Lord STONE: My Lords, I should like with noble Lords' permission to intervene at this late stage of the debate. I apologise to your Lordships and, accordingly, I feel that it is my duty to be brief. I declare an interest because as many of you know I am a practising general practitioner. However, having listened to all the speeches made during the debate, I am more than surprised that most of the substance of the previous speeches has revolved around the hospital, the hospital administration and the social and nursing services. Nothing much has been said about the general practitioners who are an integral part of the medical services. Indeed, there has been only one mention of general practitioners, and I did not think much of that.
A little earlier in the afternoon my son could be seen listening to the debate from the steps of the Throne. He, too, is a doctor in general practice. He, with his partner, and I with mine, have a daily—and I emphasise daily—responsibility for about 10,000 patients. However, there has been no mention of all these people who are afflicted with one sort of illness or another. The vast majority of these patients requiring treatment are to be seen by the general practitioner in his surgery each and every day almost on demand. I believe that the general practitioners are deserving of much more praise and much more comment than I have heard in the speeches made this afternoon.
5.43 p.m.
Lord SANDYS: My Lords, I open my remarks by congratulating my noble

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friend Lord Auckland on securing this very important day for debate on the Hospital Service. In emphasising this, I should like most respectfully to remind the noble Lord, Lord Stone, that this debate is, of course, on the Hospital Service rather than on the National Health Service as a whole.
Lord STONE: My Lords, I must point out that the general practitioner feeds the hospitals and, accordingly, has to be taken into consideration as to who, out of the 10,000 people for whom my son and myself are responsible, is selected to receive the hospital services, or to be seen or reported on if necesary. It is only fair that the general practitioners for whom I am speaking this afternoon should have fair comment as to their role.
Lord SANDYS: My Lords, I am quite sure that the debate has been enhanced by yet another general practitioner who has stated his views, as, of course, on this side of the House we have had the advantage of my noble friend Lord Colwyn speaking as a practising dentist. I am grateful to all my noble friends and all those who have taken part in this debate, because I believe it has come at a particularly apt time and, having listened to all the speeches in the debate, there have been two very noticeable factors; namely, the great knowledge of all those who have spoken and their deep concern that things are not well within the Hospital Service.
My Lords, I think that one of the consistent themes mentioned by my noble friend Lord Auckland and many others in the debate, is the fact that the communications within the present system are not satisfactory. My noble friend mentioned that the old system of the hospital management committee and complaints and suggestions flowing from patients, doctors and all those involved in the Hospital Service, was easy to administer. This view was strongly emphasised by the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, as regards the need for good communications and my noble friend Lady Young further underlined the need for better relationships between patients and all those concerned including the doctors, nurses and ancillary staff. My noble friend Lady Ward of North
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Tyneside also mentioned communications. My noble friend Lady Hornsby-Smith in a particularly interesting speech, touched upon a matter of the greatest consequence; namely, that the present bureaucratic colossus has obliterated the human face within the Health Service. My noble friend Lord Gisborough mentioned the problems of the community health council and I should like to emphasise these a little later.
I now come to the heart of my speech. I believe that one of the most significant documents which we have not yet debated in this House is the report of the Davies Committee. The Davies Committee was set up to deal with complaints from those in hospital. It reported on the procedure and suggested that a draft code of practice should be adopted. I ask your Lordships to be indulgent with me if I go into some detail, because the report which I hold in my hand was the last document with which I was particularly concerned when I occupied the same place as the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, now occupies.
My Lords, I believe that the code of practice recommended by the Davies Committee is a matter of great concern because, of course, it touches on the whole area of communications within the Hospital Service. My Lords, what has happened? A draft circular has been published following the acknowledgment by the Secretary of State of the Davies Committee's report. The code of practice was issued for comment on 15th June 1976—a full 12 months ago. I ask the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, what has happened since then. I have given the noble Lord notice of this particular issue, because I believe that he may be able to advise us.
Let us compare the draft which was produced by the Department of Health and Social Security with the model in the Davies Report. We find certain very notable omissions. At page 125 of the Davies Report under the heading, "Making a suggestion or complaint" at paragraph 2.5, it states very clearly:
"The Community Health Council will help and advise patients".
When we turn to the draft code of practice, there is no reference to this important body, the community health council. That, in my view, is a matter

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for regret and one which was pointed out by my noble friend Lord Gisborough when he asked what the community health councils were for. Certainly they are not, so far as I can see, being engaged in the machinery of complaints.
When we had the last debate on the National Health Service on 3rd December 1975 the then Minister Dr. David Owen, had recently made the comment:
"Community Health Councils give the NHS a public lobby and a public voice".
Clearly the Minister at that time welcomed the public role of the community health councils in affairs, and I wonder why the Government have apparently dropped their capability in this particular area and whether they perhaps wish to reintroduce it.
However, my Lords, the heart of a complaint is something very much more important; that is, the fear which patients and others have of victimisation. It is a very real worry, for the patient is surely a captive in a hospital and is subject to the whims of circumstances in which he or she is placed. Therefore patients may not wish to lodge complaints for that very reason. Sections 2 and 4 of the Davies Report contain no fewer than three references to victimisation.
We then turn to what the Department say about this important issue. They have neatly telescoped the two sections together with only one passing reference to a subject which must occupy the minds of many people when in hospital. I should say in parenthesis that what we are aiming at is good communications. I think all those who have spoken from all parts of the House have recognised the need for this, and surely it is a matter which will increase rather than diminish morale if all working within the Health Service knows exactly how they stand and there is a fair and open look at the whole problem of complaints.
So what are we offered? We are offered a code which in tone and impact is very different from the Davies Report. The wording is subtly different and leaves an impression of rather a defensive stance being adopted. I regret that I must press this a little further because I believe it to be very important. For example, one must go a little further, to that essential tool in the whole process of complaints,
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the record book. On page 129 of the Davies Report it is said quite categorically:
"The record book will be kept easily accessible to all members of staff and will not normally be removed from the ward or department".
However, we turn once again to the draft code and we find there is no such obligation. The nurse or ward sister is required to record suggestions and complaints and to look at the book regularly, but it is therefore entirely up to those responsible to decide where it is to be kept; and it is probably in a locked drawer in an office.
I turn to the vital matter in communications, that of suggestions and complaints. Surely suggestions and complaints are very much a matter of a constant dialogue both among the patients and the staff themselves. Therefore, I was glad that so many of your Lordships have stressed this particular issue and I feel that our time is well spent if we consider this problem. Many people are very satisfied indeed when they leave National Health Service hospitals. The figures that I have show the number of those people to be over 75 per cent., but there is ark area of perhaps 25 per cent. of those who might have made complaints, who have made complaints, and who are dissatisfied with the replies they have received.
To turn to another matter touched upon by my noble friend Lady Young, that of resources, I was very glad when my noble friend Lord Colwyn mentioned the Resource Allocation Working Party. Here I should like to thank the Department for sending over from their office at the Elephant and Castle a special copy of the document, because the Library does not hold it at the present moment. I believe that this report of the Working Party, which was appointed in May 1975, and issued an interim report in August 1976, has the greatest consequence upon the whole of the Hospital Service. Their terms of reference were:
"To review the arrangements for distributing NHS capital and revenue to RHAs, AHAs and districts respectively with a view to establishing a method of securing as soon as practicable a pattern of distribution responsive objectively, equitably and efficiently to relative need and to make recommendations".
A weighty task indeed, but they have discharged it particularly well, although they have produced many problems in so doing.

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Perhaps one of the most interesting facts which is thrown up by the report is that of current costs. I expect your Lordships are better informed than I was when I looked at page 120 of the report to see what was the capital cost of an acute bed at the present moment. I understand that at the moment an acute bed is reckoned to cost £24,000 inclusive of on costs, fees and equipment, while a non-acute bed is reckoned to cost £12,000. This is a capital cost and when we consider the pay beds which have been phased out, and those which are going to be phased out, within the NHS it surely must give us cause to consider what will be set aside if they are not going to be brought into service within the National Health Service, as your Lordships recommended in your important Amendment to the pay beds Bill last year.
I turn to the report of the Central Policy Review Staff, because here surely is one of the most important factors. The Resource Allocation Working Party and the Central Policy Review Staff look at the picture with the same eyes in the sense that it is a population problem and it is on the population element that the distribution of revenue will be geared. This may be a seemingly straightforward statement until we look at the deep complication which arises from the weighting of numbers. To recognise how complicated this is one must look at the algebra of the formula in Table C6 of the report, but I think there is light at the end of the tunnel.
I was much encouraged to read in the report of the Resources Allocation Working Party the following recommendation which I believe is well worth recording in this debate because it is a matter of great consequence for those authorities concerned with the allocation of money. It reads:
"We therefore recommend that RHAs should be allowed to seek augmentation of their future capital allocations at the expense of their future revenue allocations and vice versa over and above the permitted level of flexibility within the year".
The point is that it is not a case of borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. It is a matter of permitted flexibility within a very strict system of rules, and I believe, as indeed my noble friend Lady Faithfull believes, that it would be very much better to consider the problems of allocation of funds on a hospital basis, if that is possible, and
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to allocate funds to a hospital and allow that hospital to work out its own priorities. This is foreshadowed in our Party's policy document, The Right Approach. We believe there is a need for flexibility in managing affairs in this respect. We have not finally drawn up our policy in this regard; nevertheless, I am quite sure that this will be one of the matters to which great attention will be given.
To turn to a matter raised by both my noble friend Lord Auckland and the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, the question of the three-year allocation of revenue arises and I think both noble Lords referred to the problem of unspent money on account. The resolution to which I referred answers the problem to a certain extent, but it raises the question of whether a three-year allocation period is a wise one, whether it is one which should be curtailed or increased or whether it should be allocated on a rather different basis. My Lords, we have had a very interesting debate this afternoon and I feel certain that the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, has been asked a large number of questions, so I shall draw my speech to an end by thanking all those who have taken part.
6 p.m.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, yesterday I spent some time in the Library, thinking that I would work out how much time your Lordships' House had spent since March 1974 on talking about National Health Service matters or the hospital service. In fact I did not have time to count the columns of Questions and debates that had taken place in your Lordships' House. I derive one comfort from it: it is quite clear that, with all the criticism that is levelled against Her Majesty's Government in your Lordships' House, the only thing that noble Lords apparently have to complain about is the Hospital Service and the National Health Service. Your Lordships seem to me—though I may be wrong about this—to have spent more time on this matter than on anything else, but I take some comfort from the fact that your Lordships have nothing else to criticise us for. But, after these occasions, I find myself like somebody sitting on the ground at the foot of the rich man's table, waiting for crumbs of approval or appreciation of the Hospital Service to fall. They do fall, but they are quite

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inedible, hard and useless. This is no new experience for me, as your Lordships know.
Noble Lords have outlined a number of important issues which give real cause for concern, and may I say quite frankly that their concern is no less our concern; we are much more concerned about these matters than noble Lords sitting on the opposite side of this Chamber. It is our Service; it never was yours.
Lord SANDYS: My Lords—
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: No, my Lords, I am not going to give way. I have a lot to say. The Health Service is a national service that noble Lords opposite did not support, did not want and have criticised ever since 1948. After it has established itself and, with all its shortcomings, proved its worth, noble Lords opposite cannot say one word of approval or of comfort.
Lord SANDYS: My Lords, with all due respect to the noble Lord, I did say that over 75 per cent. of patients in the hospital service or who had visited a hospital were full of approval. I did make that comment. Further, I think the noble Lord is unaware that only two of his noble friends have taken part in this debate, whereas a very large number of my noble friends on this side have shown concern.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Sandys, said that 75 per cent. of people who receive treatment in National Health Service hospitals were satisfied. The noble Lord has never once said that he is satisfied; he did not do so today, and to my knowledge, he has not said so during three and a half years. If noble Lords are talking about the number of people who participate on this side as against that side, this House has about 10 times as many noble Lords on that side as we have on this side, and I think that the proportion speaking today is much the same. I do not want to quarrel with noble Lords. It is so easy to be destructive.
Lord GISBOROUGH: My Lords—
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: No, my Lords, I am not going to give way. I am
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sorry. I have a lot to say. There have been 16 speakers and I want to try to answer them. There is always this feeling among noble Lords opposite that the National Health Service is on the verge of collapse, that it is bankrupt, that it is disintegrating, that it is on its last legs. Of course, it is none of those things. Some reports would have it so, but the facts, as noble Lords opposite know if they are honest—and most of them are smiling, so I think they agree with me—belie the charges. Like any other service, the National Health Service has to live within a tight budget.
Noble Lords opposite—and I have heard them so many times—have been loud in their demands for drastic cuts in expenditure. It has been almost a battle cry with noble Lords opposite for months and months, and they all know that it is perfectly true. There has been this great demand for cutting of expenditure—for reduction, reduction, reduction. But noble Lords do not take their arguments to the logical conclusion. The logical conclusion is that, if there must be a reduction in expenditure, that reduction must be spread over all the services that are provided by any Government that is in power. We spend £3,500 million a year—and I repeat that—on the Hospital Service. That is a pretty good amount. I agree that we spend about three times more on pensions and benefits and so on, but it is all part of it. An enormous chunk of the cake is taken by the Hospital Service, the National Health Service generally, pensions and so on.
What is often forgotten—probably noble Lords do not know it—when we talk about waiting lists and the long queues of people waiting to be attended to in our hospitals is that, in the last three years, our hospitals have dealt with nearly 140,000 more inpatients. That is an increase of nearly 50,000 a year which I do not believe anybody has taken into account at all. Our hospitals have also dealt with 130,000 additional new out-patients. Those are tremendous additions to in-patient and out-patient treatment. But, in spite of all the prophecies of doom, the Health Service is very much alive, and providing, I believe, a magnificent service to our people.
Let me be the first to say that we believe this to be due to the energy, the commitment and the skills of doctors,

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nurses and other professionals, even administrators—who have come in for a certain amount of criticism this afternoon—and also the ancillary workers in our hospitals. I will read what I was going to say—and not just because my noble friend Lord Stone has spoken. It is that, in the tributes, I include the general practitioners and others involved in primary care. In my view, no other country in the world can boast a family doctor service comparable to our own. Let us bear that in mind; the service is making a tremendous contribution, as those of us know who have spent many, many months in hospitals as National Health patients without any privilege and without jumping the queue.
There are noble Lords who have spoken this afternoon about pay beds and said what a disgraceful business it is. Let me say this, my Lords; that issue is settled. It was a political issue and Parliament has pronounced on it. That is the end of the matter as far as I am concerned. The separation of the private sector from the public sector is, I admit, a political issue, because we object to people who can pay being able to get privilege and special help. We say that, if they want that, that is fine and we do not object to it; but it must be outside the National Health Service. I shall say no more about pay beds, although a number of noble Lords referred to it—the noble Lord, Lord Auckland, the noble Baroness, Lady Young, my noble friend Lord Segal, the noble Lord, Lord Platt, and the noble Lord, Lord Gisborough.
Lord GISBOROUGH: I shall do so again, my Lords.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord will do so again, but let him do it on information that is accurate. He said that this was done at the demand of the unions. It was not done at the demand of the unions. It has appeared in Manifestoes of the Labour Party for many years. I sat on a committee years ago which was designed to separate the private sector from the public sector. It had nothing to do with the unions, except in so far as they are members of the Labour Party. So let us make no mistake about it; it has been our intention for years. We may be wrong, but as far as we are concerned it is a principle. People may talk
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about the amount of money that we shall lose as a result of it, but money cannot replace principle. Time and time again I have heard noble Lords argue in this House that we are concerned too much with the material things—which in the main is money—and not enough with principle. We may be wrong but we do not think we are.
I want to try to answer some of the questions that have been asked today. I shall deal with the shorter issues. The noble Lord, Lord Auckland, referred to a dispute which is taking place at the London Hospital at present. I can give him literally the latest information which is that the Advisory Conciliation and Arbitration Service will be arbitrating in this matter. I am sure the noble Lord will be glad to know that at present arbitrators are being appointed. We hope that the matter will go to arbitration within a day or so. Because of his knowledge I know that the noble Lord will not expect me to make any other comment. The noble Lord asked me a number of questions, some of which he was good enough to inform me of in advance. I have them here. However, the replies are rather lengthy and I wonder whether he would agree to my writing to him and giving him the detailed replies. They relate to hospital building plans, British born doctors and nurses, knowledge of English, fire hazards and so on.
The noble Lord, Lord Auckland and Lord Amulree, wanted information on nursing as a career. Information on nursing as a career is available to young people through the career guidance service of all local authorities and also from a number of other sources, including the Nursing and Hospitals Careers Information Service. I am able to reassure both noble Lords that difficulties in recruiting young people into nursing, both as student nurses and as pupil nurses, are not now a problem which is causing any concern. They may like to read that in Hansard and if they wish to make any comments I should obviously be glad to have them.
The noble Lord, Lord Auckland, asked whether the kidney unit at the Hammersmith Hospital was to be phased out. I am advised that the Ealing, Hammersmith and Hounslow Area Health Authority (Teaching) have reviewed a number of the specialist units at Hammersmith to see

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whether any economies could be made. The AHA has decided that savings will be made elsewhere and therefore there is no question of phasing out the kidney unit.
The noble Baroness, Lady Young, raised the question, which I think was raised by another noble Lord, about health insurance. Group schemes which are financed by employers are an allowable business expense and employees who are paid more than £5,000 per annum, who benefit from their employers paying health insurance premiums on their behalf, have to pay income tax on the value of the premium. But it means that for every £100 they derive in benefit from the premium they pay only about £35 in income tax, so the net benefit is something like £65 in every £100.
The noble Baronesses, Lady Young and Lady Faithfull, drew attention to the unemployment of nurses in this country. One of them—I am not sure who—tabled a Question on this subject some time ago. My reply now is what it was then, and we should bear it in mind. There is so much unnecessary comment and criticism which does the Health Service no good at all. If you want to "knock" it, then let us go on doing things of that kind. First, through, let us get the matter into its right perspective. The number of qualified nurses and midwives registered as unemployed in England has been rising and in March 1977 amounted to 3,821. The increase comprises, to a very large extent, nurses who are unwilling to move to localities where posts are available or who are prepared to work for only restricted hours. We understand that there are many vacant posts with no one applying for them even where the number unemployed appears to be high.
This is a pattern of unemployment all over the country. We get pools of people who are unemployed who could get work elsewhere, but some of them are married and have young children and the result is that they cannot afford to travel. They may be living in council property and the chances of getting council property in the area to which they would go is, if not impossible, highly remote. So they stay where they are and continue to register—quite properly—as being unemployed. That is the situation in our view as far as it affects the majority of the 3,821
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nurses who were unemployed at the end of March 1977.
The noble Baroness, Lady Young, referred to the recent report by the Review Body on Doctors' Pay. At this stage I do not think that I can say anything constructive or useful other than that the Government have accepted the report and have noted the criticisms of the anomalies caused by the pay policy. The fact that the report has been accepted probably speaks for itself.
The noble Lord, Lord Platt, asked about the standard of provision for long-stay patients. Let me be quite frank about this. Apart from being of supreme importance—and we accept that it is a matter of supreme importance—this is a matter that causes us a good deal of anxiety because, as I think all doctors in your Lordships' House know, it is not easy to deal with. At this stage I do not think that I can say anything more than that we went into the matter in fair detail in the Consultative Document, Priorities for the Health and Social Services in England, which we published in May of last year. But we realise that that is not a wholly comforting answer. I can only say that we are alive to the problem; we know what it means to the long-stay patients and to the hospital, and what it means in terms of money.
The noble Baroness, Lady Faithfull, raised the question of a hospital having a sum of money with which to do as it pleases. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Sandys, also referred to this. This is not on. When a Government work through a Department and have to provide a sum of money to maintain a hospital service and a National Health Service—albeit that it fits only where it touches—there must be some fairly rigid control. We, the Department of Health and Social Security, cannot exercise that rigid control. That must be done by the Area Health Authorities. If we gave money to individual hospitals there would be nothing to prevent their going off on frolics of their own, costing an enormous sum of money. I am sure that in principle the idea is sound and it is one which ought to be tried, if we had the means to do it. But I think that when an allocation from the DHSS goes to the Regional Health Authority who, in turn, have to make allocations to the Area Health Authorities,

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they must know what the money is wanted for and be able to say, as the system is at present, whether it can be spent in a certain way.
Baroness FAITHFULL: My Lords, would the noble Lord allow me to intervene? Would it not be possible to try the suggestion in one or two hospitals? After all, we are casting aspersions at the hospital staff if we think that they are going to fritter the money away, and say that we think that they are not going to spend it wisely on patient care.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, we are not being critical at all, human nature being what it is. The noble Baroness knows better than anyone else how emotional and soft-hearted some social workers can be. She had to control her social workers when she was director. I am not having an argument with the noble Baroness. I have been speaking for 21 minutes. I am always generous to her, and she takes advantage of it too. I do not think that in the present climate or, for that matter, perhaps for some time, this is "on". I do not think it would be, or could be, just yet.
The noble Baroness, Lady Ward, obviously did not appreciate what I was saying, and I thought I put it clearly. When a Royal Commission is appointed it is the responsibility of the Royal Commission to invite people to give written evidence or oral evidence, and the Royal Commission that we are talking about, on the National Health Service, did precisely that. There is nothing to prevent Government Departments from speaking as a Government Department, but outside bodies must submit their own evidence, either in writing or as oral evidence, and it is for them to take the initiative.
The noble Baroness raised the whole question of endowments, going back something like 30 years. I hope she will not misunderstand this, but I really cannot give an undertaking that we shall be able to ascertain the exact sums of money that all the hospitals that have endowment funds had in 1948, and what they have done with them. I would suspect that the work involved would cost thousands of pounds. One noble Lord wrote to me at the beginning of the year asking me what appeared to be a
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simple question, and I replied to him. That brought forth another letter, and we went on until finally the point that he raised concerned a person who had spent—there is no harm in my saying this—the greater part of her life in a whole series of National Health hospitals, and it was suggested that she was entitled to certain rights; and it was finally dealt with not only in London but at Blackpool and two other areas involving 25 separate civil servants. I hesitate to think what that cost, and I do not think it would be fair in this particular instance for me to give some undertaking. What I would say to the noble Baroness—and I hope she takes me up on it—is that if she likes to put down a Question in respect of any particular hospital about which she is concerned in the area that she still keeps both eyes on—I may say and two ears, too—we shall do what we can to get the information for her.
The noble Lord, Lord Platt, raised the important issue of renal dialysis. The renal dialysis of children presents special problems and needs to be provided at centres where the special skills needed can be made available. My Department is aware of the shortcomings of the special facilities for children, and we are looking into ways to see whether we can improve them. So far as the elderly are concerned, I am afraid I have to say that it must be recognised that there may be clinical considerations which preclude elderly people from being considered for long-term dialysis. I do not know whether the noble Lord really wants me to go beyond that, or whether perhaps that does not really answer his question.
Lord PLATT: My Lords, I do not want to prolong this. I know what the situation is. The question I asked was whether it was not unique in the whole history of the Health Service that people are turned down simply because a deadline is drawn and they are too old or too young. I do not expect an answer to that.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Faithfull, raised the question of Briggs and nursing tutors. My honourable friend the Minister of State for Health has indicated to the nursing profession that he hopes to find a place in the legislative programme of the next Session for the enabling

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legislation necessary for the implementation of the Briggs Report. A coordinating committee of the nursing profession has been set up to assist in its preparation, and to ensure a smooth handover from the existing bodies to the proposed new bodies. Noble Lords may be interested to know that the Department has increased the funds available to the General Nursing Council for the employment and training of nurse tutors. A further expansion will be necessary—and we recognise this—if the Briggs Report is to be implemented.
The noble Lord, Lord Gisborough, questioned the value and use of community health councils. I hope he will not mind my saying this because he is not alone in this: I do not think that the function of the community health councils is really understood. We had this reorganisation—I am trusting entirely to memory, but I believe it was the last Government which included community health councils; I do not think it was something we did but it was part of their reorganisation—and we thought it was extremely good. The only credit that I would take on behalf of this Government is that I think we gave it a few more teeth: that is not to imply that it did not have any.
It represents the patient. It is where patients go if they have complaints to make. It is the voice of the patients. The patients have no other voice, but if they have any grievance, legitimate or otherwise, they take it to the community health council and the community health council then takes the matter up either with the hospital or the AHA, and, if it is not satisfied, with the RHA. It also means that it is impossible to consider closing a hospital without the approval of the community health council. If they agree then the hospital can be closed, but if there is a difference of opinion and the CHC does not agree, then my right honourable friend the Secretary of State is then brought in and he has to make the decision. I think that on reflection, if the noble Lord went into this matter more carefully, he would find that it is important from the point of view of the ordinary patient.
The noble Lord said something about a drug costing £100 a bottle. I am sure it was a statement of fact. I am not questioning that for one moment. However, I do not know whether the implication was
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that this was quite disgraceful and that we ought not to prescribe drugs costing that amount a bottle. There is a lot of loose talk about over-spending on drugs, and I think much of it—and I am speaking personally here and not as the Government spokesman—is justified. But one has to remember that there are some drugs that are extremely costly. I wonder how many noble Lords who had a small son or small daughter that had leukaemia and were told, "This child needs three weeks' concentrated treatment", would ask: "Well, how much is this going to cost?" Let me tell your Lordships the cost. It would cost £4,500, but if it is going to save the life of that child, what is £4,500? If it were my child, money would not matter at all; I would not be able to afford it, but the National Health Service can. As I say, some of these drugs are extremely costly, but compared with saving a life, they are worth it.
I cannot answer the questions put by the noble Baroness, Lady Masham of Ilton, about Stoke Mandeville, but I suggest she accepts the advice I gave the noble Baroness, Lady Ward of North Tyneside, and tables a Question. The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, said that people from the part of the country she comes from are outspoken. I, too, am outspoken, although I try not to be offensive, and I am not implying that she is. When she reported the dig, of somebody having told her, "I am up in Harley Street now," what does that mean? Harley Street can take only a certain number of people. If the implication is that they are leaving the NHS to go to Harley Street, then I do not mind them doing that because my knowledge of the medical and dental profession in Harley Street, Welbeck Street and Wimpole Street is that a large percentage of them also work in the NHS, so there is no reason why they should not go there.
Baroness MASHAM of ILTON: My Lords, it was not meant to be a dig. I repeated what I had heard him say, which was that he had left the NHS and I thought that was rather sad because he was a young and exceedingly active consultant.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: Why say it, my Lords?
Baroness MASHAM of ILTON: Because the NHS is not attracting young consultants who want to stay working in it, my Lords.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: That statement is not true, my Lords; it is not true to say that young consultants will not come into the NHS or, if they are in it, stay in it. I could give the figures and if any noble Lord cares to table a Question I will do so. The noble Lord, Lord Colwyn, raised the question of the Department's advice to health authorities in respect of a report. The Department's advice to health authorities drew particular attention to the special requirements of dental hospitals for finance and I can give the noble Lord my assurance that we are keeping a special watch on the way in which allocations have been made. I remember that when the noble Lord last took part in one of these debates I wrote to him at great length. We were grateful for the issues he raised then and I hope he felt that my replies on that occasion were helpful to him, too.
Lord Sandys raised the question of the Davies Committee and I wish to dot his i's, cross his t's and underline what he said. We are not unmindful of its importance. It is true that from a thick report—it is a fair size—one cannot cull everything and put it into a consultative document or a kind of draft proposal. However, as the noble Lord said, we have got out a draft code of practice based, I believe, on the Committee's recommendations and this was widely circulated in June of last year as a Consultative Document.
We are back with the old problem with which we are continually faced in Government—noble Lords opposite were faced with it when they were in office—and that is how to send such a document over such a wide field. In this case it has gone to all the health authorities (the noble Lord will know the exact number of those), to all the professional bodies, to all staff bodies and to all the CHC's, and there are about 210 community health councils. We are in duty bound to give them adequate time to consider the matter, We have received a great many comments on the document and we are currently studying them. I hope Lord Sandys will not ask me, as he is entitled to ask, when we are likely to report on it; we do not let things lie on the table unnecessarily.
Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE: No?
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: The answer, so far as the Department is concerned, is, No, my Lords. I wish to conclude on a happier note and to remind your Lordships that it was not a member of the Government but a spokesman for the Opposition, the right honourable Mr. Patrick Jenkin, who said this to an American audience; but before quoting him let me say that I have known him personally for a good many years. There is no harm in my saying that I respect his competence and ability and I hope, if he reads this, he will not think I am being patronising; that is not intended. We lived quite near each other for some years and, as I say, I have great respect for him as a person as well as for his ability. However, it was only a few weeks ago that he, the shadow spokesman in another place, said to an American audience:
"Experience suggests that … if health care is organised nationally … this is a system which, for all its frustrations, does help to ensure reasonable value for money … For these reasons I believe we will retain, and will be right to retain, a National Health Service".
Lord SANDYS: My Lords, before the Minister resumes his seat, may I ask him to confirm that he will be writing to noble Lords who asked particular questions which he has been unable to include in his speech? May I further ask him to confirm some calculations? He quoted a case in regard to medical insurance premiums in which he suggested that a married man with two children with a taxed income of between £5,000 and £6,000 a year would be charged income tax at 35 per cent. It is, in fact, 45 per cent. and I think the noble Lord would probably wish to correct what he said.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I did not make any mention whatever of a married man with two children; I referred to an employee earning £5,000 a year. I did not say whether he was married or single, with or without children. I will, of course, look at the matter. I shall, as is my usual practice, read Hansard—I will not promise to do so for a day or two—and if I have not answered adequately any questions put to me I shall be happy to write to the noble Lords concerned.
6.38 p.m.
Lord AUCKLAND: My Lords, I should like before formally withdrawing the Motion to thank most warmly all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. It has been gratifying that so many and varied members of the medical profession have participated. I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Stone, at the outset that because of the exigencies of time I did not mention general practitioners, though I would just comment, in so far as cottage and smaller hospitals are concerned, at any rate in my area, that the general practitioners do a marvellous job.
The debate has brought out a number of interesting and, to some extent, disturbing factors regarding hospitals and the National Health Service as a whole. Perhaps the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, was a little of the Jekyll and Hyde type. Beginning with the latter, he made a rather sanguine attack on this side of the House about the lack of support we had given the NHS. I recently re-read the Second Reading of the 1946 debate in the other place; of course I was not a Member of either House at that time, so I can take no personal responsibility for any vituperative attacks that were made on the NHS. So far as the noble Lord's researches are concerned, I can only say that when the Party on these Benches were in office the noble Lord, then in Opposition, had quite a number of slings and arrows hurled at him, some from me.
I would only make this point. The object which I had in putting down the Motion was to keep things in a low key. I believe that, on the whole, the debate has been in a low key. The National Health Service today is never, and will never be, free from criticism, and much of the criticism of it comes not only from these Benches, but from all parts of the country, from all political Parties. All that I seek to do—and I think my noble friends seek to do—is to make whatever criticism there is constructive. The fact that we have made criticisms—lack of finance and so on—is not, let us face it, entirely the fault of Her Majesty's Government. I have tried to make this point myself, and so have my noble friends.
I would end by once again thanking all those who have taken part, whether they
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have been critical or otherwise, and saying that there is no service in the world which, if somebody gets knocked down at three o'clock in the morning, will not deal as quickly as possible with the victim concerned. In most instances if something dreadful happens at three o'clock in the morning, the matter can wait until office hours—but not in any hospital service, be it private or National Health. In withdrawing my Motion, I would say that the vast majority of people in this country recognise that there are problems, perhaps deficiencies, within the National Health Service, but they have a very great respect for it, and an even greater respect for those in all grades who administer it. With the leave of the House, I beg to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

COMMONWEALTH PRIME MINISTERS' CONFERENCE
6.43 p.m.
Lord BROCKWAY Lord BROCKWAY rose to ask Her Majesty's Government what actions they propose to take to implement the decisions of the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference. The noble Lord said: I think that there will be many who will welcome this opportunity to look at the recent Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference. I am not sure that we have yet realised its significance. At its end it issued a very remarkable Communiqué. It was remarkable, first, for its length. It covered more than a page and a half of The Times. It was remarkable, secondly, for the extraordinary comprehensive survey it made of the relations between all the countries in the Commonwealth. It was remarkable, thirdly, because of the consensus of opinion which it expressed.
One often hears of the divergencies within the Commonwealth, but I think that the agreed decisions reached showed how valuable the Commonwealth still is. We must remember that it represents 33 countries, nearly one-fourth of the total membership of the United Nations; that it represents 44 per cent. of the developing countries in the world, if we exclude China, and 88 per cent. of the poorest countries in the world. The Communiqué was remarkable in the fourth sense, because it not merely analysed the problems

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of today, but almost always proposed at the end concrete suggestions for action to implement them.
I think that it is worth briefly having a look at the ground covered by this Communiqué. In the first place it recognised that there is now a new structure of the world. Power is no longer dependent exclusively on military and economic strength. The unaligned nations of the world are important in the approach to world détente. It inevitably discussed the situation in Southern Africa, Zimbabwe, the Republic of South Africa, Namibia. I want to return later to the problem of Zimbabwe. But all those problems were analysed.
I was delighted that it gave such early attention to the problems of Cyprus and its acceptance of the United Nations' Resolutions. It turned to the Middle East, and it endorsed the proposal for a homeland for the Palestinians, and authentic and legitimate representation of the Palestinian people at the projected Geneva Conference. Its next item showed how the Commonwealth is concerned even with small communities when their right to self-determination is threatened. It has established a Working Group on Belize, not only of Caribbean countries, but of India, Malaysia, Nigeria, and Tanzania, to co-operate with the Commonwealth Secretary-General. This indicates the intense interest of all Commonwealth countries in the right of peoples to their independence.
The Communiqué went on to discuss the situation in the Indian Ocean, and supported the proposal that it should be a zone of peace. To that I want to return. It spoke of the Law of the Sea Conference, and urged that there should be consultation at that conference of all the Commonwealth delegates. It endorsed human rights. It denounced the régime in Uganda, and it declared for equal rights, not only political and civil, but social and economic as well, understanding that impoverishment, the inability to live a full physical and mental life, is the greatest of all the denials of human rights.
At the end it spoke of youth, and of the Commonwealth Youth Council to expand a youth programme in the Commonwealth countries. It spoke of the position
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of women, and asked the Secretary-General to report on the progress of the participation by women in all spheres. Before those final references it had its long passages about economic development. It spoke of rural reconstruction, of regional co-ordination, of technical assistance, of aid, of commodity prices, of the Common Fund, and of the proposal for a new international economic order.
My Lords, in opening this debate with a reasonably short speech it is quite impossible to discuss the effects of all these analyses of the situation, and their proposals for implementation. I propose to take only three, which are symbolic of the very wide area which the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference covered, and even then I propose to take only specific items. I am quite sure that the speakers who are to follow will deal with other matters. I have given notice to the Minister of the proposals that I wish to raise.
First, what was known as Rhodesia, now known as Zimbabwe. The Communiqué emphasises that, while we are all hoping that negotiations will succeed in finding a solution to the constitutional problems involved, something which is often forgotten is that success in establishing majority rule depends, not only on constitutional change but on—and I quote:
"the dismantling of the apparatus of repression in order to pave the way for the creation of police and armed forces which would be responsible to the needs of the people of Zimbabwe and ensure the orderly and effective transfer of power".
My Lords, this reminder is very important for understanding the reality of the situation. Both during an interim Government in Zimbabwe and after independence, whoever controls the army, the air force and the police will control Zimbabwe. At the time of the dismemberment of the Central African Federation, the major armed forces were allowed to remain in Southern Rhodesia. I realise it is impossible at this moment to be definite, but the principle which the Communiqué raised is of decisive importance. It may be that a solution could be found in either a United Nations peacekeeping force or a Commonwealth peacekeeping force with the present Rhodesian forces incorporated within them. The control of the actual

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forces will be absolutely essential if real independence for Zimbabwe is to be gained.
The second issue which I want to raise as indicating the breadth of view of the Communiqué is the Indian Ocean. The Communiqué endorses that the ocean should be "a zone of peace", and proposes a United Nations conference to establish such a zone. A few months ago this seemed a Utopian idea, but since then President Carter of the United States has endorsed it. One recognises that the dismantlement of super-Power presence in the Indian Ocean would be difficult. The British Government have permitted the Americans to establish their airbase at Diego Garcia. The argument has been that the Russian Navy was also there, and there were allegations that it had its base in Somalia, though the Russians have denied this. A new situation has now arisen, because Somalia and the Soviet Union are in conflict over the issues of Ethiopia. I want to ask whether the British Government now accept the proposal that the Indian Ocean should be neutralised by the withdrawal of the navies of all the super Powers. If this were done in the Indian Ocean, it might serve as a precedent for other areas as well, perhaps even in the Mediterranean.
The third question I want to ask of the Government is whether they will seek to implement the whole series of proposals made in the Communiqué on economic development. The Conference had before it the final report of the experts' committee, set up at the last Commonwealth Conference at Kingston on the initiative of Mr. Harold Wilson, who was then Prime Minister. The experts' committee has been termed a union of ten wise men, and it is significant that it included as the British representative the former Deputy-Secretary of the Department of Trade. The Commonwealth Conference welcomed the committee's report, and asked for a thorough study of its proposals with a view to its implementation.
This report from the experts' committee stated, perhaps more dramatically than I have ever seen, the gulf between the rich and poor nations of the world. It said that for half the world's population the average annual income is 200 dollars per head. It said that among one-seventh of the world population the average annual
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income per head is between 2,000 dollars and 5,600 dollars. That gulf between the rich and the poor cannot continue if there is to be harmony or if there is to be peace.
For five years the discussion between the rich and poor worlds has been disappointing. There have been conferences on population, conferences on pollution, and conferences on food; and there was the dismal failure of the last talks between North and South at Paris. But a new and much more hopeful situation is now arising. The West, despite the opposition from West Germany and the USA, and the doubts of our own representatives, has now accepted the proposal for a common fund and the Commonwealth Conference endorsed this. But there is still a very deep difference between the West and the developing countries about the nature of the common fund. The experts' committee to the Commonwealth Conference urged that the common fund should be a positive instrument of change, opening the way to a new economic pattern for the world.
The experts' committee took a very broad view of the common fund. First, it discussed the trade relations between the developing nations and the industralised nations; second, it proposed a survey of the capacity of the developing nations in their own rural development of primary produce; and third, it discussed how those primary products might be processed within the developing country itself.
The Western view of the common fund does not include those objectives. Its idea is that the common fund should act merely as a clearing house for separately-negotiated commodity agreements—with very limited cash available for technical development. I hope that our Government will now stand for the interpretation of the common fund which was endorsed by the experts' committee.
Finally, my Lords, I want to say this. The common fund is only a part of the proposals for the new international economic order which was submitted by the experts' committee. That new economic order includes the ownership of natural resources by the nations of the developing world. It urges some control of the multi-national companies and partnership in the transport of goods between the developing countries and the

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industrialised countries. It asks for representation by the developing countries on world financial organisations such as the IMF and the World Bank, and it asks for an economic arm of the United Nations as important as its political arm.
These proposals mean a new world economic order. Have we any doubt that it is necessary?—necessary not merely to lift millions of people from their poverty, but for our own country. To lift the standard of life of half the world would mean a demand for the products of this country which would end unemployment. I hope that one of the results of the Commonwealth Conference will be that in future Her Majesty's Government will seek to support these proposals for a new world economic order and so help to end the gulf between the rich and the poor nations of the world.
7.5 p.m.
Baroness ELLES: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, always gives us an opportunity to talk about matters of great moment in international affairs even though he will not expect me to follow him in everything he has said. Of course, my noble friends on this side of the House welcome the fact that the Commonwealth Conference was held in the United Kingdom, in this Jubilee Year of Her Majesty the Queen; and we were delighted that she received the Heads of Government at Buckingham Palace. I believe that all members of the Commonwealth greatly appreciated this particular fact. I think that this set a certain seal on the feeling and spirit that undoubtedly dominated the whole of the Commonwealth Conference during the meetings in London and for a short period at Gleneagles. We also welcome the fact that 26 out of 33 Commonwealth countries were represented by Heads of Government. I believe that this, again, is an indication of the importance that Commonwealth countries attach to this particular conference.
Like the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, I shall not go through the Communiqué item by item—something for which noble Lords and the Minister will undoubtedly be grateful—but there are one or two items which, since we are discussing this
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Communiqué, cannot pass without comment. First, we agree that all countries in the modern economic world are now interdependent and are becoming more so as their standards of living to some extent converge. While recognising the enormous difference between rich and poor nations (which nobody would deny) it might sometimes be a good idea to turn our attention to the wide divergences between rich and poor which exist in every country. It cannot always be assumed, because a country has a low average income per capita, that there are not enormous concentrations of wealth within that country. Therefore, it seems to me that, sometimes, when money is given to a country which undoubtedly deserves and needs it, some kind of advice and guidance should be given on how that money may best be utilised to meet the needs of the people. I do not believe that we should control it; that would be quite wrong. But I feel that a combined effort as to the way these enormous sums are to be utilised should be considered. I know from modest and simple conversations that I have had with many people, particularly from African countries, that they themselves would welcome this. This could sometimes be a better contribution to co-operation and co-ordination between the developed and the developing nations than merely passing over large sums of money which are very often wasted and not put to good use for the benefit of the people for whom they are intended.
Secondly, I cannot pass by paragraph 14 of the London Communiqué, which refers to the armed struggle. In this paragraph it says, in connection with the independence to be achieved in Rhodesia, that the armed struggle has been complementary to other efforts, including a negotiated settlement, and agrees that its maintenance is inevitable. I should like to ask the Minister what is now the Government view. What, as of today, is their attitude to the support, both financial and material, of those front line Presidents who are supporting the armed struggle against Rhodesia?
My Lords, the Prime Minister, when commenting in another place upon the Statement on the Communiqué of the Commonwealth Heads of Government said:

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"Some Commonwealth leaders put their faith primarily in the armed struggle to bring about majority rule in Southern Africa. We shall continue to try and find another way".—[Official Report (Commons), 16/6/77; col. 561.]
That is undoubtedly something that we would all believe in. There are problems in Rhodesia; but what we find it difficult to go along with is that money should go from this country to support armed struggle against anybody, and particularly that it should support the forms of violence, mutilation and killing of innocent civilians of all colours that are taking place both in neighbouring countries and in Rhodesia itself. In any case, this is entirely contrary to the spirit, intent and express wording of the Charter of the United Nations in Article 2(3) which lays down that the settlement of international disputes should be achieved by peaceful means.
Supporting the arms struggle in any of these countries, be it Rhodesia or elsewhere, is a violation of the Charter. The people of this country find apartheid repugnant, and if taxpayers knew that their money was going to support armed struggles in national liberation movements in certain parts of the world, it would be repellent to the vast majority of taxpayers in this country that we are providing the means and arms for the killing of anybody anywhere. It is totally contrary to the policy of my Party and I hope also of Her Majesty's Government.
Regarding the amount of financial aid that has been undertaken as a result of this Communiqué, as I read through it carefully it seemed that each paragraph contained a commitment to disburse sums of money. It may be that they are already calculated and accounted for in the public expenditure accounts. Nevertheless, it gave rise to some feeling of concern when I read first of all in paragraph 22 that Heads of Government commending the front line States were to accord full support and assistance to these particular countries. I do not wish to go into the reason; but, nevertheless, paragraph 22 states that full support and assistance is to be given to the front line States. I wonder what that means in terms of cash.
In paragraph 23 we are told that refugees fleeing from repressive régimes in Southern Africa should have full support and assistance from Commonwealth countries. We know already that the
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United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees provides considerable sums of money to help these refugees. We do not question that; this is the policy of the United Nations, so be it. We also know that UNESCO helps these refugees and national liberation movements. I am querying whether the Government are now going to give further financial contributions in particular to these organisations and other specialist agencies of the UN to implement that particular paragraph.
Paragraph 24 says that the Commonwealth Governments will continue to support the special Commonwealth programme for the people of Zimbabwe. Secondly, it is appreciated that in connection with the Commonwealth fund for technical co-operation there is a need to increase the resources available. Have the Government decided that we should increase the contribution already made to that fund? There was certainly a Press statement that the British contribution was to he increased to £3 million, which was not the original amount that the Government were going to contribute.
Thirdly, there was a programme of technical assistance financed by Commonwealth funds for Mozambique. Are we also going to contribute to that particular fund in increased amounts? Fourthly, in paragraph 26 there was a pledge of bilateral and collective support to counteract the economic difficulties which have arisen in neighbouring countries as a result of the political, economic and social situation in that part of the world. Does this pledge include further payments from the Government which have not already been accounted for in the public expenditure accounts?
Fifthly, there was also the statement that the Heads of Government have agreed to increase their contribution towards the official development of these countries, and to try to attain the 0·7 per cent. UN target. If this is a further undertaking of the Government, does this mean that more will now be given to overseas aid than was hitherto contemplated? If this is so, and if the Government are really trying to reduce public expenditure, will the Minister say whether these are merely cosmetic phrases or will the Government be giving more money to overseas aid and possibly taking it away from some other part of the national budget?

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All Commonwealth Heads of Government should be congratulated on the action they took on Uganda. It was not an easy decision, particularly for those who are members of the Organisation of African Unity. It must have required considerable courage and firm decision to condemn Uganda. We all know that Uganda's record in the field of human rights has been absolutely disastrous. Since about 1974, those of us who have served in the UN have read reports of some of the events occurring in that country. I welcome the fact that the Heads of Government condemned the President of Uganda for the atrocities that are being perpetrated there. We hope that that condemnation will mean that there may be a return to a more civilised, more peaceful, standard of living for Ugandan inhabitants.
On human rights, I regretted that more attention was not paid to Cyprus. Resolution after resolution at the UN has condemned the present situation where the human rights of about 200,000 people in the Southern part of the island have been consistently violated since July 1974. It is unfortunate that more attention was not paid to this and that possibly more force was not inserted in the paragraph to the effect that not only will they try to reach a peaceful solution but that some firm measures should be taken to try to restore, to any extent possible, the situation of the refugees living in the Southern part of Cyprus.
I should like to comment on the Indian Ocean and the zone of international peace to which the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, referred. One can understand why some people are looking forward to such a zone. After all, two days before the Commonwealth Conference there was a bloodless revolution in the Seychelles with the take-over by a Left-Wing Government; so that altered the balance of power in that part of the world.
The Russian deployment in the Horn of Africa is undoubtedly unsettling the original balance of power there. The recent treaty of friendship between Mozambique and the Soviet Union has again altered the balance of power, particularly since this treaty with Mozambique includes fishing rights down the coast and the use of ports. Those who wish to see a
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Soviet balance of power in that part of the world will naturally support an Indian Ocean international zone of peace. If there is to be such a zone, we on this side of the House wish to see it entirely preserved by the littoral countries involved, and no great Powers should have interests down those coasts who have no territorial rights. To talk about a zone of peace in the present conditions is a form of euphemism which I would not support.
Finally, having made those criticisms of the Communiqué and realising the great dangers that exist, particularly in Southern Africa, we certainly hope that a peaceful solution will be found. We do not think that the removal of the "means of aggression", as the noble Lord called it—the "apparatus of oppression" I think was the term, referring to the Rhodesian forces—should be contemplated unless there is an equal undertaking that the armed struggle will cease forthwith. I think it is impossible for any people, whoever they are and whatever their colour, to be expected to lay down their arms and their means of protection and defence for the whole of their people, if there is not an equal undertaking by those who are attacking and aggressing from a neighbouring country that they will do the same.
It may well be that the best way to solve this problem would be to set up a defence council which would comprise leading black members of the Rhodesian community who are accepted by their people and possibly including some two or three members of the white community. I do not know exactly how that could be dealt with, but, as I say, I do not think one can expect any people anywhere in the world to lay down their arms unless there is a firm undertaking, a protection and a guarantee, that the other side will do precisely the same.
In conclusion, my Lords, we must be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, for having given us the opportunity to discuss this matter. I certainly do not expect the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, to answer tonight the points I have raised, because a certain number of figures are involved. I think that one of the good things which came out of the Commonwealth Conference was voiced by Mr. Ramphal, the Secretary-General, who, referring to the North/South dialogue —which, as we are all aware, is a vital

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part of the co-operation between nations of different economic balance and status—said that it was the first time since May 1975 at Kingston, on the occasion of the last Commonwealth Conference, that the leaders of the North and South were able to meet together and discuss their problems. I think that was a great contribution to better understanding between the peoples of the Commonwealth and certainly we on this side of the House look forward to the continuance of this relationship, which we believe contributes to peace in the world.
7.23 p.m.
Lord ALPORT: My Lords, I think it would be appropriate if we reminded ourselves that the Conference which has recently taken place is, so to speak, a direct descendant of another conference which took place in the Jubilee of another Queen exactly 90 years ago. The first Imperial Conference of 1887 was regarded by the country and the world as a matter of immense political significance. As a result of it, there was a prolonged debate in this country and overseas about the possibility of the development of some federal system within the then Empire. From that conference stemmed, to some degree, the great movement that affected British politics for many years of Imperial Preference, and it was a matter for constant debate and discussion in both Houses of Parliament.
It is, I think, symbolic of the astonishing lack of interest about the Commonwealth in contemporary Britain that, instead of a debate to assess the value and results of the recent Conference, whether it was initiated either by Her Majesty's Government or by the Opposition—either of the Front Benches—and that debate graced by the luminaries of the Front and Back Benches such as ex-Secretaries of State, ex-pro-Consuls and experts of various kinds, our debate tonight should be initiated as an Unstarred Question rather late in our proceedings and initiated by a distinguished ex-General Secretary of the Independent Labour Party.
It has not been our habit—I am referring to the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, and myself—to exchange political courtesies in the past, but I offer him very sincerely my thanks for having initiated this debate on this occasion. He and I represent
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diametrically opposite attitudes in British public life to colonialism, the British Empire in the first half of the 20th century and the emergent Commonwealth that has succeeded it. No doubt time and events have stripped each of us of some of his ideals and illusions. The India of Indira Gandhi cannot be the India for which he had hoped in the land of his birth, any more than the South Africa of Vorster is the South Africa I had hoped for in the land of mine. Yet, if I may say so, there must be some strand of common experience, of shared sentiment and political intuition, which brings us both to take part in the only debate in your Lordships' House designed, so far at any rate, to evaluate an occasion which three generations ago would have been regarded as having unparelleled significance for both Britain and the world.
I have no intention tonight of trying to analyse the Communiqué, except to say—I did not have an opportunity at the time—that I totally disagree with those who suggest that no Communiqué should have been issued. My purpose tonight is solely to draw to your Lordships' attention the extraordinary success of British Imperial policy which the Conference represents.
Take, first, India. It was my duty, as a Minister at the CRO many years ago, to escort Mr. Moraji Desai to Dawneywood on the very first occasion he had ever travelled outside the sub-continent. He was in fact going on to Stratford to see the Royal Shakespeare Company perform and I asked him if he did not find it strange to be travelling abroad for the first time. "No", he replied. "I have read so much about England that all I have seen so far and, I am sure, all that I will see, is as familiar to me as if I had known it all my life". He maintained then a friendship and an understanding of this country which we have not always given to India; and now I am glad to know that he is back as Prime Minister of that great country.
Many of my friends in the Conservative Party have argued that the Westminster model is not applicable outside this country, but what could be greater justification for British democratic constitutionalism or, if you like, the much disparaged "British Raj" than the outcome of the last Indian

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election? What is a village pump coup in the Seychelles or the brutality of a temporarily dominant régime in Uganda, compared with the democratic process in India, by which a dictatorship, to all intents and purposes, has been transformed into a democracy by an electorate of whom a large percentage are illiterate, and which is accepted by the deposed Prime Minister and her Party without recourse to violence and, indeed, almost 'without complaint? Whatever my contemporaries may think, I am certain that the great multitude of British men and women who served Britain in India over two and a half centuries will be resting untroubled in their graves, knowing that the people they tried to serve have taken such marvellous advantage of their endeavours.
Let us remember, too, my Lords, that at that Conference here in London a few days ago there were two men who had been imprisoned and exiled by the British Government—President Banda and Archbishop Makarios—and a representative with the good will of President Kenyatta, who had spent seven years in confinement. I think no one could have made a more agreeable speech at the beginning of the Conference than President Kaunda; and, at the end, the Communiqué that was issued represented the highest common factor in the political views of tiny islands in the Caribbean, together with those of the second most populous country in the world, from an ancient monarchy to the most recent republic, and of every variety of race, colour and creed.
My only sadness is that so many people here in Britain and so many members of my own Party who should, after all, know better—have failed to recognise the immense significance of the British achievement which the Commonwealth today represents. The residual problems are there. For the most part, they are the legacy of historic attitudes, some of which derive from the consequences of settlement by British people overseas in an era when the political climate of the world was totally different from what it is today; and some derive from indigenous characteristics, which British influence was able to cover only with a thin veneer of ordered administration.
What was encouraging to me was that neither Rhodesia nor Uganda was allowed
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to dominate the proceedings of the conference. There may have been straight talking, which, after all, is the object of the occasion, but there appeared to be little playing to domestic galleries; little of the hysterical self-justification of the era of the emergent nations. There was, so it seemed, a greater willingness to recognise the beams in their own eyes, rather than to concentrate attention on the motes in ours. It was, I think, significant that President Nyerere was not present, because the insecurity of his position in Tanzania did not permit his absence from Dar-es-Salaam. Therefore, we were saved some lecturing from that quarter.
The impression I got was that the Commonwealth had come to terms with itself in 1977, the year of Her Majesty's Silver Jubilee. The stridency, the posturing, the playing at politics, the desire for self-justification had largely gone. Instead, there was a sense of maturity which, I suppose, comes to all of us—nations and individuals alike—from the passing years. As I followed the Conference, I felt that, if we in Britain still possess a spark of imagination and are still capable of looking beyond the narrow nationalism of the devolution controversy; beyond the regionalism of the European Community; beyond the artificial constraints of our economic situation, we could, with our friends and partners in the Commonwealth, big and small alike, provide a stabilising influence for the world which could be at least as effective, and certainly far more desirable, than the balance of military power and economic strength of the super-Powers.
I have neither the time nor the ability to elaborate my theme on this occasion. All I seek to do is, first, to say to the people of Britain "For Heaven's sake don't under-estimate the world significance of the achievement which the Commonwealth of today represents". Secondly, just because we in Britain are no longer an imperial Power in the nineteenth century sense, with fleets, armies and industrial superiority, we should not jettison or ignore the opportunity which the Commonwealth of today proffers to throw our weight in the scales of world policy on the side of political stability and economic progress. It is within the capacity of the super-Powers to destroy our world. It is within the capacity—so I believe—of this

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Commonwealth, created as it has been by the genius of our nation and the process of history, to influence the world towards a freer, more stable, more humane world system than has existed hitherto. I only hope that, whatever Government rules Britain in the next decade, they will not ignore the opportunity for national fulfilment which the contemporary Commonwealth—the Commonwealth of today—seems to me to represent.
7.34 p.m.
Lord MERRIVALE: My Lords, I would go so far as to agree sincerely with my noble friend Lord Alport, that Britain has a very important role to play in the world within the Commonwealth and, bearing in mind the Convention of Lomé, outside the Commonwealth. But before proceeding further, I, too, should like to express my appreciation to the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, for initiating this short debate.
Considering that the Heads of Government last month,
"agreed that the need for a rational and equitable economic order"—
which they recognised at Kingston, was—
"more urgent than ever before",
I am wondering whether a more positive approach could have been made by the developed countries towards this irreversible and beneficial proposal for a new international economic order. As a minor contribution to this end, I am thinking particularly this evening in terms of industrial co-operation and the implementation of such co-operation. This, of course, includes the transfer of technology, training in industrial, supervisory and managerial skills, the provision of finance and assistance with the development of local processing; and, of course, industrial co-operation must be taken to include the agricultural sector.
With reference to training, the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, will certainly be aware of the fact that the progress report by a Commonwealth team of industrial specialists, HGM (77) 6, draws attention to the positive role which employers' organisations, professional bodies and trade unions can play; for example, in the training processes for the improvement of managerial, technical, craft and other skills which may sometimes
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need adaptation for developing countries. Like your Lordships, I believe, I am very conscious that much has been said in various international fora, such as the CIEC, UNIDO and UNCTAD, on the question of industrial co-operation, transfer of technology, multi-national companies and so on. But little has been achieved in concrete terms, apart from the production of many reports and mainly insufficiently implemented decisions.
However, I welcome the importance which the Lomé Convention attaches to industrial co-operation, and accordingly, the recent setting up in Brussels of a centre for industrial development. Under the guidance of its Director, Dr. Roger Theisen, and the assistance of a 12-member advisory council, one can but wish it well. Conscious as one is that a decision to manufacture within a specific developing country must necessarily be a matter of commercial judgment, in compliance with the manufacturing programme of the country concerned, it is an encouraging thought that a close relationship now exists between the centre in Brussels and the CBI, bearing in mind the centre's functions as laid out in Article 36 of the Convention. A further source of encouragement may be found in the positive and sound approach to this matter by the CBI, as exemplified by their Evidence to the Select Committee on Overseas Development last February, in which they rightly stressed, on the theme of industrial co-operation and transfer of technology, that it is a two-way process requiring mutual recognition of interdependence.
The unions' attitude, too, is encouraging, for the ILO in Geneva, in a report dated April 1974, stressed that the incidence of unemployment and under-employment in developing countries is a cause for grave concern. The International Confederation of Free Trade Unions stressed also, during the course of their eleventh World Congress in October, 1975, that,
"developing countries need greater industrialisation, not least in order to earn foreign exchange to purchase those goods from the developed world which are needed to meet the basic needs of the people, with the emphasis not just placed on creating industry, but more on increasing employment".
Similar recognition of the needs of the developing countries may be found in the TUC Economic Review of last year.

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In view of the great importance that developing countries attach to the process of industrial co-operation—I am now thinking in particular of West Africa, bearing in mind the Economic Community of West African States—can the Minister say, perhaps not this evening but on another occasion, to what extent the following measures which are available to Her Majesty's Government to promote investments in developing countries are proving effective; namely, double taxation agreements, bilaterial investment protection agreements, pre-investment study schemes and investment insurance schemes provided by the ECGD?
Regarding the essential question of the transfer of technology and technical formation, I understand that Her Majesty's Government are assisting developing countries through their technical assistance programme. However, I should like to ask the Minister whether Her Majesty's Government are prepared to consider the intensification of this assistance by taking the lead in the elaboration and launching of an international research programme on teaching and training in the developing countries, as proposed by the Club de Dakar in their Declaration on Global Co-operation between Industrial and Developing Countries of December 1976.
For the information of your Lordships, may I add that the Club de Dakar, under the very able leadership of Mr. M. T. Diawara, Minister of Planning in the Ivory Coast, consists at the moment of 80 members who have been selected from developing and industrial countries and includes Ministers, diplomats, Members of Parliament, economists, bankers, learned professors, top administrators and industrialists. I might add that the EEC Commissioner, Claude Cheysson, said that the principal characteristic of the Club de Dakar, being born in Africa, was that it expressed better than others the vision of the Third World. Like the CBI, the Club de Dakar recognises that the prosperity of the industrial countries and the development of the developing counties are closely interdependent. Ultimately, therefore, both groups will benefit from such co-operation.
At this stage it is interesting to note that there are many points of similarity between the CBI Evidence, to which I
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previously referred, and the Club's Final Documents of December 1976, which include a proposed charter on industrial co-operation and a list of activities to be developed at first in a concerted way in the developing countries.
May I refer now to the excellent final report by a Commonwealth Experts' Group, established by Commonwealth Heads of Government at Kingston in 1975, in which they emphasise the urgency of introducing new measures to accelerate the industrialisation of the developing countries. They state that the expansion of manufacturing and processing can be expected to proceed in three main directions. That may be so. However, I should like to see implementation, not just recommendation. To this end, I hope that the noble Lord the Minister will be willing carefully to study the Club's Final Documents—he has a copy in his possession—for I believe that he will find the approach of the members of the Club to be both positive and realistic, culminating in sound proposals which affect members of the Commonwealth just as they affect non-members of the Commonwealth.
A step further in industrial co-operation was taken last month. I mention this, although it is not totally relevant to the Heads of Government meeting, because I believe that it shows that something can be done towards realising the aim of further industrialisation. There was a meeting in France last month which brought together top industrialists, members of the Club and African leaders. The interesting point is that, following a general discussion, meetings were held on the basis of individual developing countries, six of which were represented, and on the basis of industrial activities, ten of which are listed in the Club's report.
May I express the hope—I trust with the active co-operation and support of the Commonwealth Secretariat—that next year a similar meeting can be held in this country. Taking into account the Lomé Convention, with regard to West Africa there are four Anglophone countries and, naturally, a greater number of Francophone countries. If one can bring the two groups closer together, because of their desire to develop on a regional basis, it can do nothing but good.

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Furthermore, the final report of the Commonwealth experts states that they see a need for specific bilaterial agreements which will spell out the responsibilities and obligations of Governments and industry and establish machinery and institutions for effective implementation. I stress the word "implementation" because I believe it to be important. May I add that in Article I of its Charter on Industrial Co-operation the Club de Dakar equally recommends bilateral or multilateral agreements.
Finally, as the Heads of Government agreed that rapid industrialisation is an indispensable element of balanced national development, will Her Majesty's Government, with imagination and political will, do all in their power to ensure that, as was asked for by the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, a better balance is struck between the developing and industrial countries?
7.48 p.m.
Lord GRIDLEY: My Lords, I am sure that noble Lords are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, for raising this interesting Question. In opening my speech I should like to pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Alport who, I felt, endeavoured to raise the issues which we are debating, to a very high level. I consider that discussion of the Commonwealth is sadly lacking in this country and it is my fervent hope and, indeed, belief that we shall soon come to realise its importance for the world and for ourselves generally.
Certain noble Lords, including myself, consider that the emergence of the Commonwealth is one of the wonders of our planet, and that, in the past, our Empire was a force for peace over one quarter of the earth's surface. May I therefore suggest that, when we consider Commonwealth issues in future, Parliament should be entitled to know in some detail what is discussed at the Conference of Commonwealth Prime Ministers?
I shall not take long to develop my arguments in view of the time and of the fact that I am the last speaker before the Minister replies. I am concerned not so much with what appeared in the Communiqué issued at the conclusion of the recent Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference, as with what was
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omitted. Parliament is now of sufficient stature, as, in view of the length of time that these various countries have had their independence, are the Prime Ministers, for us to be entitled to discuss these matters rather than that a communiqué of broad agreement should be issued at the conclusion of the Conference or, as was done by the Government, a Statement made in this House.
I refer to the matter which particularly concerns me. In Hansard, on 16th June at column 304, the following Statement was issued by the Government:
"We discussed serious and difficult issues without acrimony and with a growing understanding of each other's positions, and on many issues we reached a complete identity of view".
My Lords, are we not entitled to know what were those differences of opinion and what agreement was reached? I am of the opinion that this House and, beyond this House, this country, are entitled to know what those issues were. In addition, there must in your Lordships' House be a wealth of experience which, in a constructive and statesmanlike way, might well make its contribution to the solution of the difficulties that arise within the Commonwealth.
Mention has been made of the burning issues of Rhodesia and Uganda which face the Commonwealth and present serious difficulties. As regards Uganda, I congratulate the Commonwealth Prime Ministers on their condemnation in unequivocal terms of President Amin's disregard for human life. However, what does that show to all of us in this House and people throughout the world? It shows that these independent nations are now growing in stature and that we should have more confidence in our dealings with them and not hesitate to have open discussion in Parliament on Commonwealth problems or problems which arise in the various territories. We should not avoid discussing difficult situations and we should not be frightened of past susceptibilities. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, will understand the point that I am making.
While we congratulate ourselves on this tremendous association of the Commonwealth which extends to over a quarter of the globe, we should never ignore our own shortcomings or failures

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in past overseas policies. It was, after all, a policy decision on our part that bequeathed independence to the people of Uganda. I can speak from my experience as a colonial officer who gave effect to our overseas policies for 30 years. It was also our policy never, under any circumstances, to grant or give independence to a country for which we were responsible until we were satisfied beyond doubt that we were handing the country over in a condition of stability which we thought would carry into the future. I wonder tonight what the average citizen of Uganda in the present conditions of that country feels in his bones about our action. I wonder if that point came up at the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference. Although we in this country and the Press in general condemn President Amin, we cannot entirely exculpate ourselves from the results of our past actions. I mention these points in the firm belief that, in consideration of future problems within the Commonwealth, we can understand one another better if we each state frankly what we feel we are compelled to state. Each one of us must face the issues squarely without hiding or pushing anything under the carpet.
As regards Rhodesia, I wonder whether anyone can explain the reason the coloured forces in that country under Mr. Smith, numbering several thousand, continue to fight the same coloured people from Zambia and Mozambique. What is the reason for their continuing to support Mr. Smith's forces? I should like to know whether even that matter was discussed at the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference. May it not have been due to the fact that the services assisting Mr. Smith in Rhodesia in that connection are simply fearful of what may happen in that country if independence comes and the same catastrophe were to befall Rhodesia as befell Uganda? I want far more information about what issues were discussed in the hope that some of us with experience could make some useful contribution to their solution in the future.
What happened about immigration at the Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference? Was that discussed? There is no mention of it in either the Communiqué or in the Statement made by the
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Government at the conclusion of the Conference. As I have stated, I was involved for many years in giving effect to your overseas policies. I trained people to be responsible for their own affairs and to make their own contributions, while remaining in their country to assist its progress towards independence. Was that matter discussed? It is an extremely important issue and one about which I believe this country would like to know.
I have addressed a number of questions to the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, and I have done so because I have tremendous faith in the future of the Commonwealth. It is growing in stature and maturity. I believe that some of the matters which we have, perhaps, swept under the carpet in the past are better brought out into the open. Those Ministers and Members of this House who played such a tremendous part and contributed to this one little concept could make a most useful contribution to some of the difficulties that have befallen us.
I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, will consider the points that I am making, I feel deeply about the Commonwealth: I was there for 30 years. I have seen the area in which I served grow from colonial status to independent nationhood. I have taken part in training people to a degree where we lost our own appointments. During the war the country where I was serving was overrun and I was imprisoned for four years. I mention that only to point out that when we were in dire straits the people whom we had served in those years risked their lives by smuggling food and drugs into the prison where we were incarcerated. I have tremendous affection for the place. I believe that it is growing in stature. I believe that the example of what has happened in India given by my noble friend is a complete justification of our past policies, and I sincerely hope that what has been said this evening will be of use to Her Majesty's Government.
8.1 p.m.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I should like to join those noble Lords who have expressed appreciation of the action of my noble friend Lord Brockway in enabling us to have this very useful and, indeed, timely debate on the

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meeting of the Commonwealth Heads of Government in London. I think the debate in which we have taken part confirms a general view that the meeting was a resounding success. Very much for the reasons given by the noble Lord, Lord Alport, and the noble Lord, Lord Gridley, the Empire grew, the Commonwealth develops. It has once more proved to be a durable and vital organisation, attracting and retaining the membership and the affections of 36 varied countries with many more various races contained in them. Not only does it go on but it is increasingly giving an impression of what the noble Lord, Lord Gridley, has called "a new maturity". I think originally that phrase was used by the noble Lord, Lord Alport, but it was taken up by Lord Gridley and developed in a way which I found extremely attractive.
I entirely agree that we should not underestimate the Commonwealth. It is unique. It is not an alliance; there is no treaty binding the members to assist one another militarily or even economically. The days of preference are over. Many of us may regret that fact but, nevertheless, although still informal, it is serviced by a first-class secretariat and indeed a first-class Commonwealth Secretary, Mr. Ramphal. I believe that it would be fair to say that a great deal of the success of the Commonwealth meeting in London this year derived from his experience, his very capable secretarial guidance and organisation and, of course, the chairmanship of our own Prime Minister, to which others from the Commonwealth paid resounding tributes.
But, however we look at the Commonwealth meeting and at the Commonwealth itself, there is there the fact of life and even if we, in this country, for some reason were to abandon it, the others would not. There are people in Africa and Asia who are at least as devoted to the concept of the Commonwealth as we are. The life is there. It is a group of entirely sovereign States in varying stages of development, a cross-section of the world. It meets somewhat informally but with plenty of opportunity to discuss on the margin questions which may not surface in the more formal meetings. It does not proceed by decision in the way that other international organisations do and yet its meetings lead to decision and action.
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We have heard the example of the Kingston meeting quoted by more than one noble Lord tonight. That is an example of how the Commonwealth took up the difficult and complex question of co-operation between the developed and the developing. As the noble Lord, Lord Merrivale, stressed, it studied how to implement the North-South dialogue in terms of real economic action and presented the conclusions, the blueprint, to the United Nations—the world authority—which has for many sessions been grappling with this but has not come up with anything like the documents that emerged from Kingston.
I turn rapidly to a number of points raised by those who have taken part in this debate. The noble Lord, Lord Brockway, inevitably raised the question of Zimbabwe or Rhodesia—both euphonic names for that country—and mentioned in particular the need for police and armed forces, especially in the transition stage to independence, to command the confidence of all the peoples of the new independent State. I can assure the noble Lord and the House that practical measures to ensure the transfer of effective power to a majority government in an orderly fashion are under intensive study and will form an important part of a new settlement package.
Now the Communiqué itself demonstrated the very deep concern felt by the Commonwealth about Southern Africa, including Rhodesia, and referred to the root cause of the destabilised and dangerous situation in that part of Africa, which is, in fact, getting worse. We fully share this concern and fully subscribe to the language used in the Communiqué to express the concern of the Commonwealth as a whole and I personally—and I am sure the Government and this House—welcome this consensus of attitude by the Commonwealth as a whole, from Canada to New Zealand, towards the particular difficulties of Southern Africa, which is practically all Commonwealth. There is a Commonwealth look about this problem in Southern Africa and it may presage (who knows?) a Commonwealth presence linking up with the ideas emphasised by my noble friend Lord Brockway.
As to Namibia, which he also mentioned, there is some reason for optimism.

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There have been two rounds of talks with the South Africans and the major elements of a settlement based on conditions laid down in Security Council Resolution 385 have been defined. There are of course many problems left to be resolved and we have yet to obtain black African and SWAPO endorsement of the proposals that have emerged, but considerable concessions have been made by the South African Republic and it is right that we should recognise them. Five months ago these concessions seemed hardly possible, but now they are facts on which we may build a safer and saner future for Namibia, and, by example, for other parts of Africa.
A particularly difficult question that was presented to the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting was that of the organisation of sport. Sport today is more an industry than an interest. It is certainly international and has great possibilities for either international cohesion or international quarrels. The Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting led here to practical results over sporting contacts with countries practising apartheid, South Africa specifically. The Statement that issued from the discussions at Gleneagles expressed general detestation of apartheid in sport and looked forward to the holding of the Commonwealth Games in Canada next year. I think we are all aware that the prospects for the Canadian Games looked rather doubtful before those discussions in London and in Gleneagles. They are much better now. This is something the meeting has done. It has clarified the position. It has brought people together into a consensus declaration on the role of sport in their international relations. There is now a feeling of confidence that this important aspect of Commonwealth co-operation will go forward without interruption.
My noble friend in his speech raised the economic question of North-South co-operation. The Commonwealth meeting came shortly after the conclusion of the Paris meeting of the Conference on International Economic Co-operation, and this enabled us as a Commonwealth to take stock of the results of the CIEC and to consider practical ways forward. I do not agree that the prospects are dismal.
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The CIEC, the Paris talks, in fact, endorsed the idea of a common fund, and that was a great step forward from previous international meetings where we could only record failure on this question. In addition, the Commonwealth meeting noted that the United Nations, through the Economic and Social Council, will shortly be addressing itself to this question, and there are other studies proceeding, including the Commonwealth's own study of the common fund. It was indeed at the suggestion of the Australian Prime Minister and the Jamaican Prime Minister that the group was set up to study the technical aspects of the common fund. This was one of the most hotly contested elements of the Paris talks, although endorsement was forthcoming at the end for the concept, and we are now looking forward to taking an active and constructive part in its work.
Britain has much to contribute in the practical implementation of this towering idea of a common fund. We have shown the mettle of our ability in the Kingston meeting. I am sure that we can make a very great contribution in the next two or three years to the practical implementation of this idea. The Commonwealth fund for technical co-operation is one of the most practical examples of Commonwealth economic co-operation, and we strongly support the fund. The noble Baroness asked me a specific question about this. I am glad to say that during the meeting my right honourable friend the Prime Minister announced that our contribution would be increased by two-thirds to £3 million in 1977–78, and it was particularly encouraging that so many other members of the Commonwealth also came forward with increased pledges.
On the question of overseas development assistance, another point the noble Baroness raised, we intend to continue progress towards the UN target of 0·7 per cent. of GNP as economic circumstances permit. I should remind the House that our aid is already among the most generous of any donor, and indeed 95 per cent. of the British commitment in 1976 was composed of outright grants. So while we are all impatient to see the British as well as other people's contributions to international aid increase, in order to achieve the targets put forward by the United Nations, nevertheless we must not

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unduly criticise the British contribution and its present commitment. It is among the best in the world. Indeed in some ways—for instance, its emphasis on out-right grants rather than loans—it stands in the very van of international contributions.
On human rights, the Commonwealth meeting made quite clear its commitment to the protection and enhancement of human rights. In particular, in the continuing turn of events in Uganda, the Commonwealth as a whole was forthright in its condemnation of the situation in Uganda, and it was encouraging, to say the least, to see how unanimous the 35 nations of the 36 were on this particular issue. On the question of Cyprus, we have, of course, consistently supported the inter-communal talks in Cyprus under the auspices of the UN Secretary General. They offer the very best hope of making progress in the search for a solution to the problem. The concern of the Commonwealth Heads of Government to give all possible assistance to Dr. Waldheim is precisely the concern of the British Government. Here the consensus, I think, is firm and general. We support the efforts of the United Nations Secretary General to promote intercommunally a peaceful solution and system for the island of Cyprus.
With regard to the Middle East, my noble friend mentioned that part of the Communiqué. It think it would be fair to say that the attitude of the Commonwealth, as shown in the London Communiqué, is that we are very much in support of the broad objectives of President Carter in the Middle East, that we seek as a Commonwealth a balancing of the need of Israel for an assured position as a country and a nation in the future with the concern of the Arab nations for the future of the Palestinians, constitutionally and economically.
My noble friend referred to the proposal for an Indian Ocean peace zone. We could have an Unstarred Question debate entirely on that matter. As we see it, the desire of the littoral States of the Indian Ocean for arms limitation in the area should be the starting point—it was a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Elles. It is no good going about this by a series of headlines and slogans saying that it is a good thing. Of course it is. All the littoral States must first be clear on this and then the super-Powers—the
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United States and the Soviet Union—have an essential role to play.
We believe that a successful and effective arms limitation agreement in this area would depend upon mutually agreed restraint by the United States and the Soviet Union. We therefore welcomed President Carter's recent initiative which has led—and this could be extremely important—to United States-Soviet agreement to establish a joint Working Group, an American-Soviet Working Group on the Indian Ocean. A number of joint Working Groups have been set up by the two super-Powers. This, I think, is one of the most important. If they can work together in a phased practical delimitation policy in this area, not only the countries and peoples of the area will benefit but the whole world.
I have a great deal more to say about the Commonwealth. However, an Unstarred Question debate is the opportunity not for a full dress debate—and an old and practised Parliamentarian such as the noble Lord, Lord Alport, certainly knows this—but for the exchange of views and the raising of outstanding questions without necessarily exhausting the possibilities of the subject. Indeed, how could we? We must return to this. I am always more than ready to join in a discussion of the performance and the prospects of the Commonwealth. If I have omitted a number of points which appear to your Lordships to be of particular importance, let us remember that there are other opportunities for us to raise these matters.
I shall scrutinise the record in the morning to see what points have been raised by noble Lords which require a factual and precise reply. For instance, the noble Baroness, Lady Elles, raised the whole question of aid to African countries. I want to give her a firm assurance on one point tonight and an equally firm promise on another before I sit down. The firm assurance is as follows: when we bilaterally and multilaterally join in forms of aid for countries in Southern Africa, or elsewhere for that matter—countries such as Mozambique, possibly Angola and so on—not one penny is intended to be used for arms or violence, whatever the presumed justification. Anything that we make available

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to those countries is either for development or technical assistance training. If members of armed guerrilla forces benefit in that way from what we make available, we are glad; it may help them to devote their energies to a better way of promoting their causes and their countries. That is the assurance.
I have given the assurance from this Dispatch Box, and so have my right honourable friends in another place more than once. I do so again forthrightly tonight because I share the concern of the noble Baroness that nobody in this country should have his or her money, through taxation, devoted to promoting bloodshed and violence in Africa or elsewhere. I share her concern that, as individuals and as a country, we should do everything we can to help people in Africa and in other less privileged parts of the world technically and industrially to develop. But there is a distinction between the two which is the heart of the Government's policy, and I have no doubt of its predecessor and its successor, especially if, as seems increasingly likely, it succeeds itself. I thought that I had better say that, before I encourage the noble Baroness unduly.
The promise is as follows. I was looking at my notes when she was speaking and I see that a great many details of the aid are set out in, for instance, the Statement made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place on Monday, 23rd May this year. That Statement sets out pretty well the facts and figures of the aid that we make available. I have given a few in the course of my speech—for instance, the increase in the Commonwealth Technical Fund, which is meant for developing countries in the Commonwealth. There are a number of other interesting and reassuring facts and figures which I can make available directly to the noble Baroness who speaks from the Opposition Front Bench on these matters. Therefore, I am prepared to have bilateral relations with her in that sense. Alternatively, she may wish to table a Question for Written Answer, so that not only the noble Baroness but the rest of the House are given the other figures which could be of interest to the House generally. Perhaps we might have a word about that later.
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So, my Lords, I end on the note struck by everyone who has taken part in this extremely useful and timely debate. We can take pride in the Commonwealth. There is a difference between pride and arrogance. From time to time some international organisations give a certain impression of arrogance—but not the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth gives an impression of pride in itself. It was a most moving occasion to listen to Kenneth Kaunda making that eloquent and graceful speech of admiration for this country and its Queen. Having heard that speech from that man, that cultivated and able African leader, and heard his real pride, I felt a pride at being associated with others from all over the world in this unique association—the Commonwealth. This pride comes out in spite of all the struggles of the past, the disputes of the past, occasionally the violence of the past, in this wonderful testimony to the British idea and to the British Queen, the Head of the Commonwealth.

LONDON HYDRAULIC POWER BILL
Reported with Amendments.
REDUNDANCY REBATES BILL
Returned from the Commons with the Amendments disagreed to, with a Reason for such disagreement: the said Reason to be printed.
  STERLING AND MEMBERSHIP OF THE EEC
  STERLING AND MEMBERSHIP OF THE EEC
  BRITISH AIRWAYS AND CL44 AIRCRAFT
  BRITISH AIRWAYS AND CL44 AIRCRAFT
  WARRINGTON CROWN COURT
  WARRINGTON CROWN COURT