Sitting of 11 March 1976

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  BRITISH RAILWAYS BILL
  (By Order)
BRITISH TRANSPORT DOCKS BILL
(By Order)
BRITISH TRANSPORT DOCKS (FELIXSTOWE) BILL
(By Order)

LONDON TRANSPORT BILL
(By Order)
Orders for Second Reading read.
To be read a Second time upon Thursday next.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  HOME DEPARTMENT

    Metropolitan Police (Discipline)
    Mr. Aitkenasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is satisfied with the internal disciplinary system of the Metropolitan Police.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Roy Jenkins): Yes, Sir, subject to the changes in the procedure for dealing with complaints that I have proposed in the Police Bill.
    Mr. Aitken: What is the Home Secretary's reaction to the speech by Sir Robert Mark on 25th February when he voiced certain criticisms of the Police Bill on the grounds that it was likely to reduce the effectiveness of police internal disciplinary procedures to the inadequate level of criminal justice? As 59 per cent.
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    of police officers tried on indictment last year were acquitted, compared with the national acquittal average of 17 per cent., do not those figures alone indicate how necessary it is for the police to be able to get rid of their own rotten apples by swift, internal, effective disciplinary procedures?
    Mr. Jenkins: Yes, but I do not think that that would be impaired by the Bill. Sir Robert Mark, for whom, as hon. Members know, I have the highest respect as a Police Commissioner, has always believed in taking matters to the public and exercising a wide range of discretion when making controversial statements. I make no objection to that at all, provided that he does not expect me necessarily to endorse all of them in every circumstance. As the hon. Gentleman knows, during the Committee stage we have had an adjournment and a pause for reflection which I hope has been beneficial. It has emerged that there is a substantial difference of police opinion—for example, the Police Federation takes a very different view.
    Mr. Christopher Price: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, in spite of all the admiration for Sir Robert Mark, there is still very great disquiet in the London Borough of Lewisham and other parts of South London about the protection afforded to individual citizens under police interrogation? When will my right hon. Friend bring forward proposals so that proper protection can be given?
    Mr. Jenkins: I am aware of the point which my hon. Friend has made. Indeed, he came to see me about this matter and we discussed it fully. One form of protection is the Police Bill, which I am anxious to see on the statute book as soon as is reasonably practicable.
    Mr. Alison: The narrow point to which Sir Robert Mark is addressing his opinion is that the Police Bill as drafted will add yet further time and dimensions of inquiry under the tribunal procedure to the handling of internal disciplinary matters. Is it not a serious possibility that police officers will try to spin out their time in the service to allow the full scope of the Police Complaints Board inquiries to elapse before they can finally be got rid of? Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that this is a change

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    from the present arrangements for the worse?
    Mr. Jenkins: To be honest, I doubt whether it would be useful to try to encapsulate in an exchange at Question Time discussions which have already taken 15 Committee Sittings. My problem, and it is the problem of everyone, that, first, I believe that there is a general demand for a Police Bill. Certainly no hon. Members voted against it on Second Reading. Secondly, I believe that it is essential to preserve the effective discipline of chief officers over their forces, a matter about which the Commissioner has expressed great concern. Thirdly, it is essential not to have double jeopardy and certainly that is something to which the Police Federation attaches great importance.
    This is a circle which requires some delicacy in squaring. I think that we are about as near to it as we are able to get in our Bill, but I would never take the view that every dot and comma of the Bill is right. Although I believe that the main framework is right, I am certainly willing to consider particular points, as we have before.

    Mr. Des Warren
    Mr. Skinnerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what recent representations he has received from organisations and persons concerned with the release of Mr. Des Warren, the imprisoned trade unionist.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: I have received 66 communications since I answered a similar Question by my hon. Friend on 12th February.
    Mr. Skinner: Why is it that some people seem to get out on parole after a relatively short time while others do not? Is it not a scandal that as recently as yesterday, I think, Ronald Millhench, a trendy business man, was let out after serving only 17 months of a three-year sentence, yet Des Warren is still incarcerated when all that he is guilty of is fighting not to line his own pockets but for better conditions for his mates?
    Mr. Jenkins: As my hon. Friend knows perfectly well, the parole board is an independent body. I believe that it is undesirable to discuss particular decisions of this sort, but it is also the case
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    that the individual to whom my hon. Friend has referred and indeed many other individuals, did not have the record of offences in prison, which, unfortunately, Mr. Warren has had and which I very much regret.
    Mr. Anthony Grant: Is the Home Secretary aware that if he took representations from the public as a whole, he would find that they are deeply concerned about violent intimidation wherever it may occur, and that they believe that Mr. Warren and his fellow conspirators richly deserved what they got?
    Mr. Jenkins: It is always very difficult to be sure what the public as a whole would say. However, in trying to hold a fair balance, as I do in this and other cases, between not treating Mr. Warren more favourably because of any pressure upon me and less favourably in reaction to that pressure, it is necessary to try to apply finer judicial standards than the public as a whole might apply.
    Mr. Wellbeloved: Does my right hon. Friend think that the fall of the Labour Government would increase or decrease the possibility of other people landing in the same position as Mr. Warren? Does he think that the reform of the law of conspiracy would be aided or hindered by the fall of the Government?
    Mr. Jenkins: There is a later Question about reform of the law of conspiracy and I had better let the House await that. As for the possible fall of this Government, even more important questions than those raised by my hon. Friend would be involved in that situation.
    Mr. Wellbeloved: My hon. Friends had better make up their minds sharpish about whether they want a Tory or a Labour Government.

    Equal Opportunities Commission
    Mr. Canavanasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many complaints have so far been submitted to the Equal Opportunities Commission.
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Dr. Shirley Summerskill): Where a case of alleged discrimination occurs, it is mainly for the indvidual complainant to institute proceedings in the courts or industrial

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    tribunals. The EOC had received over 7,500 inquiries by 20th February of which it estimates that nearly 2,000 either referred to or could lead to formal complaints of discrimination as defined in the Sex Discrimination Act.
    Mr. Canavan: How many of the complaints referred to educational matters and what, if anything, can be done about those schools which do not allow girls to follow certain courses, such as technical subjects? What can be done about dictatorial headmasters who exclude girls from education simply because they are wearing trousers?
    Dr. Summerskill: I shall inquire from the Commission about my hon. Friend's first point and let him have the answer. I remind him that a complaint in respect of public sector education must be notified in the first place to the appropriate education Minister. The figures from the Commission would therefore not be comprehensive. It has been established that no head teacher can forbid girl pupils to wear trousers. His point about the curricula will certainly be taken up by the Commission.
    Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Can the Equal Opportunities Commission examine and report upon the outrageous action of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in refusing to allow men to buy index-linked bonds to protect their savings until they are five years past the age at which women are allowed to buy them?
    Dr. Summerskill: I will certainly note the hon. Member's point and refer it to my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. I will indicate to him the agreement which seems to exist with the hon. Member on the Government Benches.
    Mr. Greville Janner: Will my hon. Friend indicate when the work of the Commission will be doubled by the introduction of the reinstatement rules for mothers who wish to return to their jobs within 29 weeks of the date of birth of their children?
    Dr. Summerskill: That is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment, and I will refer my hon. Friend's comments to him.
    Mr. Stanbrook: Surely 7,500 is a totally inadequate number of complaints, con-
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    sidering the amount of money and time that has been spent on this farcical body. What is the Minister doing to stimulate more complaints so that we can see what a nonsense the whole thing is?
    Dr. Summerskill: I take it that the hon. Member has his tongue in his cheek. I think that a total of 7,500 inquiries by 20th February shows the great need which existed for such a Commission.

    Passports
    Sir J. Langford-Holtasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, as Her Majesty's Government have recently withdrawn passports from British citizens, whether he will now make a statement clarifying the right of British citizens resident in the United Kingdom to enter and leave the United Kingdom at will provided only that he or she can identify himself or herself.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: In accordance with Section 1(1) of the Immigration Act 1971, a person who has the right of abode in the United Kingdom may enter and leave the country without let or hindrance except such as may be required to enable that right to be established or which may be lawfully imposed on any person.
    Sir J. Langford-Holt: I thank the Home Secretary for the Answer and for its clarity. Am I right in assuming that he accepts that the passport carries with it certain privileges but that it does not carry with it the right to enter or leave the United Kingdom, which is the privilege of every resident citizen of the United Kingdom?
    Mr. Jenkins: I accept that. Removal of the passport is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, but I do not think that it is doubted that he has that right, because people who are returned to the country at public expense normally have their passports removed. The mere absence of a passport does not remove one's right to leave the country. It may make it more difficult to do so, but the right remains.
    Mr. Beith: Since the Foreign Secretary considers it right to withdraw passports and to return them on the basis of an undertaking about what British citizens might do when they go abroad again, will the Home Secretary make clear

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    that in the carrying out of their duties his staff will make clear to those who do not have passports for that reason that they will not be subjected to similar restraints and that these people will have their rights made clear to them?
    Mr. Jenkins: Their rights are as I have set out. It is certainly the case that one has the right of entry without a passport provided one can establish one's identity. A British citizen in the full sense can leave the country without a passport provided he can get a carrier to take him. I was, for some reason not associated with the action of a Foreign Secretary, compelled to leave the country and re-enter it without a passport. It is more difficult to do so than with, but it is not impossible.
    Mr. Arthur Lewis: I thank my right hon. Friend for his reply. The matter was not dealt with so fully yesterday by the Foreign Secretary. Will my right hon. Friend go further? Like him, I have both entered and left the country without a passport. There have been instances, however, when people have turned back home to get their passports mistakenly believing that they must have them. Is it not the case that, provided travellers can produce irrefutable evidence to satisfy the Customs officer, he is usually most helpful and kind and will permit them to enter or leave?
    Mr. Jenkins: I thought that was broadly the case, and if anything the word "irrefutable" is a bit strong.
    Sir Frederic Bennett: The Home Secretary twice mentioned people leaving the country without a passport. May I take it that he also includes, upon proof of identity, entry into the United Kingdom?
    Mr. Jenkins: I understand that to be the case.
    Mr. Marten: When we have to carry Europassports, will it be the Commission or the Council of Ministers which has the right to withdraw them?
    Mr. Jenkins: I do not think that we shall have to have Europassports. I think that they will be complementary to other passports.

    Departmental Staff (Senior Grades)
    Mr. Greville Jannerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the proportion of female to male employees in senior grades in his department.
    Dr. Summerskill: At the end of February there were 756 men and 61 women employed full time at principal level or above.
    Mr. Janner: Does my hon. Friend consider that the regrettably few ladies who work in her Department with, rightly, full equal rights should be entitled to retire five years earlier than their male colleagues?
    Dr. Summerskill: The small number of women in senior posts at the Home Office is not peculiar to the Home Office or even to the Civil Service. It reflects the situation found throughout industry, local government and most of the professions. I shall refer my hon. Friend's second point to the Minister of State, Department of Health and Social Security.

    Domestic Premises (Security)
    Mr. Simsasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what advice his Department gives to householders wishing to make their premises secure against breaking and entering.
    Dr. Summerskill: I am sending the hon. Member a copy of the booklet "Protect Your Home", which has been delivered to every household in England and Wales. The police are always ready to give further advice to householders.
    Mr. Sims: I am grateful to the Minister for sending me the literature, although one copy has already been delivered to my household. Does she agree that burglar alarm equipment plays an important part in the protection of the home? Is she aware that this equipment is more expensive for domestic premises than it is for industrial premises because in domestic use it attracts 25 per cent. VAT while in commercial use the rate is 8 per cent.? Will she make representations to the Chancellor to remove this ridiculous anomaly?
    Dr. Summerskill: I undertake to do that.
    Mr. Budgen: Might not the Home Office listen to some of the advice given to it from householders, in particular, to get the police up to strength?
    Dr. Summerskill: A question has been tabled about police recruitment. As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are making every possible effort to increase police recruitment and we have made greater progress than ever before.

    "Mark the Ball" Competitions
    8. Mr. Ashtonasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will introduce legislation to compel newspapers to print a profit and loss account of "Mark the Ball" football competitions, and allow competitors to inspect winning entries.
    Dr. Summerskill: This suggestion falls within the terms of reference of the Royal Commission on Gambling, and it would not be appropriate to introduce legislation in advance of any recommendations the Commission may make.
    Mr. Ashton: Was there not a White Paper in 1973 which recommended that? Why has no action been taken? Why has the matter been postponed to be dealt with by a Royal Commission?
    Dr. Summerskill: The law relating to any particular competition is a matter for decision by the courts. So far no relevant case has appeared before the courts concerning "Spot the Ball" competitions. However, as a Royal Commission is inquiring into this subject, I suggest that my hon. Friend sends his views or evidence to it.
    Mr. Lipton: Is my hon. Friend aware that the "Spot the Ball" racket is a gigantic "con" out of which a small number of people make very large profits? In the meantime, could not an investigation be made into what is happening?
    Dr. Summerskill: These competitions have not been declared illegal. The law is contained in Section 47 of the Betting, Gaming and Lotteries Act 1963. However, their legal position will be reviewed by the Royal Commission. My hon. Friend, too, can put representations to that Royal Commission.

    Bill of Rights
    Mr. Ashleyasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is his policy towards the principle of a British Bill of Rights.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: I regard it as raising issues of great constitutional importance which call for the widest public discussion.
    Mr. Ashley: Will my right hon. Friend agree that in view of the increasing complexity of our society and the vast changes in our international and local life, we now need a Bill of Rights to safeguard the liberty and freedom of individuals? As a first step, will he consider incorporating the rights which are guaranteed by the European Convention of Human Rights into legislation of our own?
    Mr. Jenkins: As my hon. Friend may be aware, I made a speech in Birmingham about a month ago raising these issues. I regard this issue as being of importance and I am anxious to see public discussion focus on it. There is not necessarily an easy answer. Certainly one option is the incorporation of the European Convention—it is not the only option, but it is one. Clearly, the Government attach importance to that and to the right of individuals to petition, because this January we renewed our adhesion to the Convention for five years, which is the longest period ever.
    Mr. Flannery: Will my right hon. Friend agree that in any future Bill of Rights there would be a section to preclude films such as the disgraceful one shown recently and called "Open door" in which naked racialism of a National Front character was paraded for two and a half hours, to the dismay of a large number of people? Is he aware that many organisations have protested about this already?
    Mr. Jenkins: I am aware of protests of this sort and clearly it will be no surprise to the House that I did not agree, any more than my hon. Friend—almost every hon. Member would share our view—with the line put over in that programme. I have seen other programmes in this same series which were made by outside groups and with which I have not agreed, though for rather different reasons. This subject is not easily dealt with by a Bill of Rights. Nor would I

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    regard this in itself, much though I might dislike the programme, as being a reason for altering the well-founded view that responsibility for programmes rests not with Ministers but with the British Broadcasting Corporation and the Independent Broadcasting Authority.
    Mr. Costain: When considering alterations to our Constitution, does the Home Secretary appreciate that procedure in Parliament would be much easier if we had a Bill of Rights, because that would stop any Government from making crazy proposals?
    Mr. Jenkins: I stand four square with the hon. Gentleman against crazy proposals being put forward by any Government, but I suspect that there might be room for argument between us and between others, with or without a Bill of Rights, as to exactly what definition the word "crazy" attracted.

    Police Interviews (Tape Recorders)
    Mr. Andrew F. Bennettasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on what progress is being made in his discussion on the use of tape recorders for the taking down of statements and for the recording of interviews between the police and suspects.
    The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Alexander W. Lyon): The committee which we have established to look into the feasibility of an experiment in the tape-recording of police interrogations is making good progress. In the light of the committee's report, which we hope to receive in the summer, we will decide whether any experiment should be mounted.
    Mr. Bennett: Will not the Minister accept that what he has called good progress is not satisfactory to many groups? Is not the time right for experiments to be carried out rather than to wait for a report on whether experiments are desirable?
    Mr. Lyon: It would seem a bit daft to appoint a committee to advise us on what we should do and then to act before that committee has reported. I told my hon. Friend that we expect the report to be available in the summer. I do not think we can expedite the matter further.
    Mr. Lawrence: As this is only a report into the feasibility of having an experiment, why has it taken over 18 months and who or what is holding it up?
    Mr. Lyon: The committee has had nine meetings, the first in April 1975 and the most recent on 11th March. It consists of representatives of the Bar Council, the Law Society, the Justices' Clerks' Society, the Association of Chief Police Officers and a number of Government Departments. I suspect that the fact that the members of the committee are all busy people has been one reason for some delay. However, the hon. Gentleman knows that a number of difficult technical issues have to be decided in the presentation of tape recorded evidence to the courts in order to ensure that it is valid evidence.
    Mr. Christopher Price: Is my hon. Friend aware that his answer is just not good enough and that there are stories that this committee is being held up not by the difficult technical problems before it but by the determination of some of its members not to produce an agreed report? Is my hon. Friend aware that although it first met in April, it has been sitting since February last year? Will he ask that a report be produced much sooner than the summer?
    Mr. Lyon: I note my hon. Friend's concern, but he has listened to too many alarmist rumours.

    Fire Doors
    Sir A. Meyerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will amend the fire precautions regulations so as to stipulate a maximum opening pressure for fire doors.
    Dr. Summerskill: Until current research into the self-closure of fire resisting doors has been completed, it is not possible to say whether maximum opening pressures could appropriately be prescribed in regulations.
    Sir A. Meyer: Current research be blowed! Has the hon. Lady ever tried to open fire doors, particularly in some modern hotels? Does she not understand that elderly people, small children and invalids would have the utmost difficulty opening these doors in the event of an emergency and might very well be burned to death?
    Dr. Summerskill: I am aware of the hon. Gentleman's anxiety about this subject, which is extremely important, but there are a variety of existing installations and a wide range of devices. It is therefore necessary, before prescribing regulations, to look into them fully.
    Mr. Churchill: Is the hon. Lady aware that many elderly and disabled people have expressed grave anxiety that under the fire prevention regulations local authorities install fireproof doors, supposedly for their safety? These people feel that they will be imprisoned by such doors in the event of a fire. Will the hon. Lady make special provision in this respect?
    Dr. Summerskill: I am certainly aware of this problem. I assure the House that we are doing everything possible to expedite the research and, if necessary, to introduce appropriate regulations.

    Immigration
    Mr. Tebbitasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he remains satisfied that his present powers are adequate to prevent illegal immigration.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: All reasonable and practicable measures are taken to prevent illegal entry, and we see no requirement at present for additional powers to secure the removal of those found to have entered illegally.
    Mr. Tebbit: Does the Home Secretary agree that there is still considerable public disquiet about illegal immigration, which has been added to recently by confused statistics? Does he agree that as that leads to disquiet among the indigenous community, which can lead to hostility against immigrants as a whole, he should do more and be seen to do more to eliminate illegal immigration into Britain?
    Mr. Jenkins: I am very much in favour of taking firm action to prevent illegal immigration, and indeed, certainly to punish those who organise it, and very heavy penalties are available.
    Whatever may be the state of confusion or non-confusion about statistics, that does not bear upon illegal immigration. It could conceivably bear upon overstaying, but not upon illegal immigration, which is illegal entry into the country
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    and about which, by its very nature, there cannot be statistics. However, I assure the House that I am certainly determined to stop illegal entry.
    Mr. Whitelaw: I welcome the Home Secretary's views on the need to stop any illegal immigration. However, is he satisfied about overstaying? Can he give a clear answer to the fears of many people that substantial numbers of students and visitors are overstaying, and are "disappearing", as it is said, into some communities? Will he conduct an investigation? When he has done so, if it is necessary will he take further powers to stop this process? I think that the right hon. Gentleman will agree that that is what is damaging and dangerous, and perhaps more so in terms of numbers than illegal immigration.
    Mr. Jenkins: Yes. I do not necessarily dissent from the right hon. Gentleman's view. I am glad that he accepts—he naturally would—the distinction between illegal immigration, which is when people come into the country when they have no right to land and land here from a small boat, or whatever it is, and overstaying, which is when people come in legally but do not observe the legal conditions under which they have come in. I could not say that this does not exist as a problem, but I believe that its size may be exaggerated.
    I shall bear in mind what the right hon. Gentleman said on Second Reading of the Race Relations Bill. If there are any further steps that we can take in order to assure both the indigenous and immigrant community that overstaying in this way is not a form of cheating that we can countenance, I shall take them.
    Mr. Arthur Lewis: I thank my right hon. Friend for his last reply. Is he aware that many instances of people overstaying have been brought to my notice? Those people have then been allowed to stay here. In my constituency there is a large immigrant population, and some of the immigrants have been complaining that their wives and relatives have been waiting, sometimes for years, to be allowed to come in through the normal and proper channels. The immigrants deeply resent the fact that although some of their own friends, relatives and others cannot come in, some students come in, overstay and then ask for permission to

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    stay on, and I know from my postbag that many of them do so.
    Mr. Jenkins: It is possible to exaggerate the numbers. I reiterate that I am sure that it is essential to be fair and to be seen to be fair. I take note of what my hon. Friend has said. I assure him that the discretion—if there be discretion—to allow people to overstay, which is very occasionally necessary in rather exceptional circumstances, is and should be exercised extremely sparingly.
    Mr. Lane: What progress are the Government making in their talks with the French, Belgian and Dutch Governments with a view to stamping out the cross-Channel illegal immigration racket?
    Mr. Jenkins: As the hon. Gentleman knows, I have had a number of talks with Ministers of the Interior in other countries. This matter has not been central to our discussions, but I shall bear it in mind when we come to the conference of European Ministers of the Interior of the Community, which I hope will take place within a matter of three months.

    Conspiracy Laws
    Mr. Cryerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he expects to introduce legislation amending the conspiracy laws; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: The Law Commission's report on conspiracy will be published very shortly. The Government are now considering the report with a view to preparing legislation to reform this branch of the law, but I cannot yet say when the legislation will be introduced.
    Mr. Cryer: Does my right hon. Friend accept that the trade union movement in particular and many other people are very much concerned about the wide-ranging nature of the conspiracy laws? Will he assure us that when preparing the legislation he will take into account the excellent resolution on the conspiracy laws that was passed at the last annual Labour Party conference?
    Mr. Jenkins: I am aware of these matters, but what I intend to take into account primarily—though not in any way dismissing anything else; I have had several discussions with the TUC—is the
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    report of the Law Commission, which I hope will be generally accepted. The House must wait and see what it says, although it will not now have to wait for very long.

    Police (Criminal Offences)
    Mr. Corbettasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many policemen in the Metropolitan Police District were convicted of criminal offences in each of the past four years; how many were acquitted; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: I understand that the number of Metropolitan Police officers convicted of criminal—other than traffic—offences in each of the four years since 1972 was 11, five, eight and 12 respectively, and that the number acquitted was seven, 16, seven and six respectively.
    Mr. Corbett: Does my right hon. Friend consider it wise that the Commissioner for the Metropolitan Police, on 25th February on a public occasion, should have gone out of his way to draw attention to what he considered to be an unsatisfactory conviction rate for officers of the Metropolitan Police charged with criminal offences, especially as at that time he must have had knowledge that 48 hours later summonses were to be taken out against 12 senior Metropolitan Police officers on corruption charges in connection with the pornography trade in the West End of London? Does not my right hon. Friend think that that comes pretty close to criminal contempt?
    Mr. Jenkins: No, I certainly do not take that view, though I have already indicated in answer to an earlier Question what I regard as my respect for the Commissioner's right to speak his mind freely, and my right not to have to comment every time he does so. My hon. Friend has been pressing strongly for some action in this respect. It has been taken. I do not think that there is any danger of a fair jury trial being prejudiced.
    Mr. Tebbit: Would it not be better if we could all leave the Commissioner, who is a remarkably fine policeman, to make his controversial statements, which are needed in our public life, and for each of us not just to pick on the statements that we do not like on which to

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    raise our rows here? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he has at least my support in standing up for this man?
    Mr. Jenkins: I think that I can stand up for him even without the support of the hon. Gentleman. No doubt he is right in saying that we all have our differing views. I do not recall the hon. Gentleman being particularly enthusiastic about the Commissioner's view on capital punishment.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Is there not a very important point of principle involved here? If it is right for Sir Robert Mark to make controversial political speeches, why should not every other public servant or senior civil servant make political speeches as well? What Sir Robert Mark was making was a highly controversial political speech attacking the jury system of this country, and surely it is improper for a public servant to do just that in a political context?
    Mr. Jenkins: I do not agree that the position of the Commissioner of Police is or ever has been analogous to that of a civil servant.
    Mr. Hardy: Does my right hon. Friend agree that by and large we have an excellent police force and that it needs to be maintained in excellence and needs to be seen to be maintained in excellence?
    Mr. Jenkins: Yes. My hon. Friend puts the matter extremely accurately and succinctly.
    Mr. Body: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he has not answered the third part of the Question, namely, whether he will make a statement? Could he not make a statement on the behalf of the police to the effect that the figures that he has given are neither serious nor significant?
    Mr. Jenkins: I should have thought that it was abundantly obvious from my replies to the previous supplementary questions that I have made any statement that I propose to make on this matter.

    County Elections (Ward Boundaries)
    Dr. Edmund Marshallasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is satisfied that the county council elections in 1977 in some
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    counties can be held with the same ward boundaries as in 1973, even though the electoral arrangements for some districts in those counties have already been revised for the district council elections in 1976.
    Dr. Summerskill: Yes, Sir. Elections of county councillors in 1977 will not be affected by orders that have been made to provide new electoral arrangements in districts.
    Dr. Marshall: If the electoral registers in some areas, however, have already been reorganised on the basis of revised district ward boundaries, how will it be possible in practical terms to hold the county elections on the old ward boundaries, which have now disappeared?
    Dr. Summerskill: I am advised that this will not present any difficulty, but if my hon. Friend has a problem in his constituency, perhaps he will let me know so that I can consider it.

    Official Secrets Act
    Mr. Beithasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he now proposes to introduce legislation repealing Section 2 of the Official Secrets Act.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: I have nothing at present to add to the announcement of the Government's intentions in the Queen's Speech.
    Mr. Beith: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that in the five years since the Franks Committee made its important recommendations we have not gone very far along the road to open Government? Does he also agree that when considering issues of privacy and the protection of the privacy of the citizen it is important that we do not forget that those issues and official secrets are related, and that they should be seen as closely related when new legislation is being considered?
    Mr. Jenkins: I think that there is a certain relationship, although I would not describe it as an indissoluble link. However, I think that the one, to some extent, can be considered on its own. In the Queen's Speech the Government said that they would endeavour to bring forward proposals in the course of this Session, possibly with a view of going further next Session.

    Age of Consent
    Mr. McCrindleasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what representations he has received from the Responsible Society on the question of the age of consent for heterosexual and homosexual relationships, respectively.
    Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: This society, in a written memorandum of evidence to the Policy Advisory Committee on Sexual Offences, has expressed the view that the present ages of consent for sexual intercourse and homosexual acts should remain unchanged.
    Mr. McCrindle: Is it at least as much the responsibility of the Home Secretary to protect the very young from experiences which may have a lasting effect upon them as it is to try to maintain, as far as possible, that this sort of relationship should remain outside the scope of the law? On balance, does the hon. Member agree that we might do well to leave well alone?
    Mr. Lyon: In the final analysis it is the responsibility of the House to draw that line. The House will have the opportunity of making a judgment in the light of a report from a very distinguished committee which is widely representative of all sections of opinion. I hope that when the report is produced the House will find its recommendations acceptable.
    Mr. Ronald Atkins: Does my hon. Friend agree that, whatever the age of consent, the Sex Discrimination Act should apply in this sphere as elsewhere? In other words, if my hon. Friend does not get me clearly——
    Mr. Speaker: I think that we have it.
    Mr. Lyon: I think that I have my hon. Friend clearly: I think that he is saying that the age of consent for men should be the same as for women. There is some difference of opinion about that. I menitioned an opinion at an earlier stage and it was highly controversial. It was much resented by the Homosexual Law Reform Society. This is an issue for the advisory committee, and we await its report.
    Mr. Stokes: Does the hon. Gentleman condemn the recent statement of the so-
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    called National Council for Civil Liberties on this issue? Is he aware that that body is totally unrepresentative of public opinion in this country?
    Mr. Lyon: Not for the first time, the hon. Gentleman arrogates to himself the right to say what is public opinion.
    Mr. Stokes: I know more than the Minister.
    Mr. Lyon: The hon. Gentleman may well be right. In the final analysis, none of us can be absolutely certain about what public opinion is really saying on an issue as complex as this. What we can do is to appoint the committee to consider representations from different bodies of opinion and to make a judgment.

    Visas
    Mr. James Lamondasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if there have been any recent changes of criteria for considering applications for visas to visit the United Kingdom.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: No, Sir. Each application is considered on its merits and in the light of circumstances prevailing at the time.
    Mr. Lamond: But should not the regulations have been liberalised since the signing of the Helsinki Agreement? If that is so, will my right hon. Friend reconsider his decision about visas for some foreign delegates coming to this country?
    Mr. Jenkins: No, I cannot entirely accept what my hon. Friend says. I have made it clear to him that I have no intention of using the visa procedure to prevent the York forum on disarmament from taking place. Equally, merely because it is taking place I am not prepared to relax the normal criteria that I should apply in other circumstances.

  QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
  Ql. Mr. Tebbitasked the Prime Minister if he will list the criteria which he takes into account in deciding if he should answer Parliamentary Questions or transfer them to departmental Ministers.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): I have nothing to add to the reply which I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East (Mr. Thomas) on 2nd March, Sir.
  Mr. Tebbit: First, on behalf of the whole House, I wish the Prime Minister many happy returns of the day. We hope that he will enjoy the rest of his birthday. We are sorry that he missed the party last night.
  Why, if he is sticking to his Answer, did he shuffle off the responsibility last night for answering on the future of his Government to the unfortunate Lord President while he stayed skulking in his room with the door locked and the lights out, hiding?
  The Prime Minister: I hope that there was no unfortunate suggestion in the hon. Gentleman's last few words. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his typically and characteristically kind and generous remarks.
  There have been many precedents from all parties as to who should handle a situation such as that which arose last night. If the door was locked, I am not responsible for that. If the lights were out, it was because I had gone to my birthday party.
  Mr. Ford: If my right hon. Friend had had a Question on woollen textiles which he might have considered transferring to his right hon. Friend, is he aware that I should have put a supplementary question congratulating the Government upon their action in limiting imports of made-up woollen suits from Eastern Europe?
  The Prime Minister: Yes. I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Of course, the Question refers to the Questions which I have transferred, not to those which I have not transferred.

  PUBLIC TRANSPORT
  Mr. George Gardinerasked the Prime Minister if he will consider recommending the appointment of a Royal Commission on public transport.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment is reviewing transport
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  policy and will shortly be publishing a consultative paper.
  Mr. Gardiner: I accept that a Royal Commission might be a rather cumbersome form of inquiry, but does the right hon. Gentleman recognise the mounting anger of commuters who are being squeezed for substantial fare increases every few months? Does he accept that if British Rail continues this practice, it might have a considerable effect on employment patterns throughout the South-East Region? Will the right hon. Gentleman set up some form of independent inquiry into the managements and practices of British Rail?
  The Prime Minister: On 17th December 1973 the Conservative Government told us of their plans to cut subsidies. Of course, they did not do so, but we are. If it is Conservative policy not to cut subsidies, we shall cost for the Conservative Party the further increase in public expenditure which will be involved. I can tell the House that it would be very serious indeed.
  I think that the best inquiry into this matter, at least in the first instance, will be for the House to express its views when it has had time to study the consultative document, which it will get in the near future, including its views on whether any further internal or external inquiry is necessary.
  Mr. Les Huckfield: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of my hon. Friends and I appreciate that the Department has been conducting a wide-ranging inquiry into the future of transport policy? Is he aware that many of us feel that what is wanted is not another inquiry—especially under a Royal Commission—but a statement as soon as possible explaining how the Government intend to put into practice the party's policy of a co-ordinated and integrated transport system?
  The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for what he has said. I have no doubt that he will keenly await the report. I have seen the work that is being done, and I am sure that the whole House will agree that it is a valuable and important inquiry. I think that the House will want to get its teeth into it pretty quickly.
  Mr. Hooson: Does the Prime Minister agree that public transport in rural areas

  619
  is in a chronic state? Is he aware that there have been experiments with Post Office buses carrying both passengers and mail? Will the Government consider the possibility of changing the licensing system for cars so that people may give lifts without incurring penalties? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that there are practical ways of tackling the public transport system immediately with a view to improving it?
  The Prime Minister: I agree with the hon. and learned Member about the vital importance of both rail and road services, particularly in rural areas, in all parts of Britain. Perhaps we can take up his last point when the consultative document is debated. The previous Labour Government introduced the experiment of using Post Office vans for passenger transport when my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House was Postmaster-General.
  Mr. Kinnock: What account was taken of the massive lobby of the House by the Transport and General Workers Union busmen last month in constructing the policy in the consultative document? Is my right hon. Friend aware that the suggestion to which the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson) drew attention and to which a Ministry circular refers rather euphemistically as less conventional means of transport in rural areas means to many of us scab taxis?
  The Prime Minister: I do not know about scab taxis, but, quite apart from the lobby of the House, my hon. Friend will know that representatives of all those concerned in the different sections of the transport industry, including the busmen, have been very fully consulted in the preparation of this document. I ask my hon. Friend to await the report to see whether the matter has been adequately covered. If not, he can make further suggestions.
  Mr. Wigley: Is the Prime Minister aware of the crisis in transport in Wales, particularly in rural areas? Is he aware that those working in the industry feel that the situation has deteriorated considerably since the National Bus Company took over, because management has become more remote and out of touch from what is going on? Will he consider
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  an inquiry into this aspect of the problem?
  The Prime Minister: I know these matters are being discussed in the consultative document, as is the ultimate responsibility for bus services, whether rural or urban. I ask the hon. Member to await that report.

  EUROPEAN COMMUNITY (PUBLIC ACCOUNTABILITY)
  Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Prime Minister if he will make a further statement on his talks with leaders of the EEC member countries on the need to establish more effective public accountability within the Community.
  The Prime Minister: Following the decisions taken at the European Council in Rome, the Presidents of the Council and the Commission have been in touch with the President of the European Assembly, Sir. During his recent visit to this country I made clear to the Prime Minister of Luxembourg, who is currently the President of the Council of Ministers, the importance I attach to rapid progress on this matter.
  Mr. Hamilton: Can my right hon. Friend assure us that he will press this matter very hard when he visits Luxembourg next month? Is he aware that the European Parliament thinks it can cover this problem by setting up a subcommittee of the Budgets Committee? Is this not simply trifling with a very serious problem?
  The Prime Minister: I agree about the importance of this matter and that is why we took the initiative on it, with the full support of the Federal German Chancellor, with whom I have had discussions on this subject. I think that what we said impressed the Council of Ministers, who gave us a fair wind. We are looking to the Assembly to carry this matter forward. It is not for me to comment on the inner workings of the Assembly since I am not a member; nor do I expect to become one. The Council of Ministers takes this matter very seriously and if there is anything we can do at the next meeting of the Council, or at subsequent meetings, we shall do it.
  Mr. Ridley: Does not public accountability start at home? Are the Government going to produce new proposals for public expenditure in view of the House's rejection of their current proposals last night?
  The Prime Minister: We shall debate this matter later today. Were we to consider doing as the hon. Member suggests, we should like the help of the Opposition to make some suggestions about what they would cut or increase in public spending. I have read the reports of our debates right through and can find no evidence of what they would do. In fact, we were told that they were not going to tell us.
  This inquiry relates to control of expenditure in the European Community. We began it at home. Our Public Accounts Committee, on which many hon. Members have served happily and well and on which they have worked together to secure economies, goes back well over 100 years. We want something similar in Europe.

  TUC
  Mr. Grahamasked the Prime Minister when he last met the TUC.
  The Prime Minister: At the meeting of NEDC on 3rd March, Sir.
  Mr. Graham: When my right hon. Friend next meets the leaders of the TUC, will he bear in mind that its crucial and welcome support for accepting stricter limits on wages could not have envisaged the increased food prices which resulted from the recent review in Brussels? When the Government next review their policy of food subsidies, will they bear these increases very much in mind?
  The Prime Minister: I agree that the support of the TUC and industry generally has been, to use my hon. Friend's words, crucial and welcome in relation to the fight against inflation. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture reported to the House on Monday on the review. I know that there is great feeling on this matter and not only from those who have traditionally opposed our membership of the Common Market.
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  There is concern about what came out of Brussels. My right hon. Friend had a very difficult task, but it is not beyond the wit of the House, with the present facilities for debating European questions, to find an opportunity to debate this matter so that my hon. Friend can put his point at greater length.
  Mr. Michael Latham: Will the TUC be told why the February 1974 pound in its pocket is now worth 69 pence?
  The Prime Minister: The House debated inflation last year and the Government took action on inflation last year. The Conservative Party did not vote one way or the other.
  Mr. Mike Thomas: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that when he last met the TUC leaders, they expressed firm support for the public expenditure proposals which were rejected by the House last night?
  The Prime Minister: Yes. They did express their support. Like everybody else, except the Opposition, they have their own views about priorities, but they expressed their views very clearly in their annual economic report, which was published a few weeks ago.
  Mr. Lawson: In view of the Prime Minister's satisfaction with the Government's incomes policy, how does he explain what is happening to the pound?
  The Prime Minister: I hope to have an opportunity, if I catch your eye later, Mr. Speaker, to refer to that in a rather more considered way than the hon. Member might feel it appropriate to do by way of question and answer.

  PRIME MINISTER (VISITS)
  Mr. Cartwrightasked the Prime Minister what plans he has to make an official visit to Woolwich.
  The Prime Minister: I have at present no plans to do so, Sir.
  Mr. Cartwright: Is my right hon. Friend aware that if he did make such a visit, he would find considerable concern about the continuing rundown of manufacturing industry upon which that part of South-East London has traditionally depended?

  623
  Does not the experience of my own borough, which has lost 20,000 manufacturing jobs in less than 10 years, show the real employment problems even within Greater London?
  The Prime Minister: The pattern of employment in London has changed considerably and there has been a shift away from manufacturing over a period of years. There are many reasons for this. The Greater London Development Plan provided guidelines within which action could be taken by local authorities. Employment in manufacturing industry in Great Britain has been declining over the past 15 years and recent Government proposals are designed to reverse that trend and to strengthen our industrial manufacturing base.
  Mr. Peter Bottomley: May I lend support to the remarks of the hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Cartwright) and ask the Prime Minister whether he is aware of the concern in Greenwich and Woolwich about the proposed transfer of defence jobs, which are as important as manufacturing jobs, away from the borough?
  The Prime Minister: Of course I understand this point. The hon. Member knows that I heard a great deal about his constituency and its problems from his predecessor. The hon. Gentleman was very generous about that on the day he took his seat. If he writes to me, I will look into the matter, but he ought to be addressing this question to the Secretary of State for Defence.

  STUC
  Mr. Canavanasked the Prime Minister what he proposes to discuss with the STUC when he meets it in April.
  The Prime Minister: My colleagues and I expect to discuss a wide range of issues concerned with the Scottish economy when I meet the STUC in Glasgow next month, Sir.
  Mr. Canavan: Will my right hon. Friend discuss with the STUC what measures should be taken to reduce the appalling total of over 150,000 unemployed in Scotland? Instead of listening to characters like the CBI and the
  624
  hypocrites in the Tory Pary who are calling out for even more cuts in public expenditure and even more wage restraint, will my right hon. Friend have a word with my good friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to see that he introduces some reflationary measures in his Budget to try to create more jobs in Scotland and elsewhere?
  The Prime Minister: I am very glad that my hon. Friend, after a good night's sleep, is less kindly disposed to the Conservative Party that he appeared to be last night. In reply to the serious part of my hon. Friend's supplementary question—at the beginning—as he will know, that subject formed a great part of the discussions of my right hon. Friends and myself with the Scottish TUC last year. Although, as far as I know, no final agenda has been drawn up, I expect that subject to loom very large at the meeting next month.
  Mr. Crawford: Will the Prime Minister listen carefully to the STUC's objections to public expenditure cuts in Scotland and reprimand his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer for suggesting to my hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mrs. Bain) that trade unionists were in favour of public expenditure cuts? The STUC is not, and the Scottish National Party supports the STUC.
  The Prime Minister: I am confused about exactly where the SNP stands on this question. I accept what the hon. Gentleman said. If he will let me have a note of where the SNP stands, I shall be interested to study it over the week-end.
  Mr. Heffer: Is my right hon. Friend aware that my hon. Friend the Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Canavan) was not well disposed to the Conservative Party, and that hon. Members who abstained on last night's vote did so precisely because the Government had pursued Conservative policies in relation to public expenditure?
  The Prime Minister: It is always an arguable question about promiscuity whether one is more open to criticism for going into the bedroom or being the lap dog outside the door.

BRITISH RAILWAY (DISPUTE)
Mr. Teddy Taylor Mr. Teddy Taylor (by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Employment if he will invite the ACAS to seek a solution of the current dispute on the railways; and if he will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Michael Foot): Drivers at a number of depots have already resumed normal working on the advice of the ASLEF Executive and many services have been resumed. At other depots meetings are even now taking place to discuss the Executive's recommendation. I very much hope that all drivers will follow the advice of their Executive so that full services can be quickly resumed and the inconvenience to the public ended.
I understand that British Rail and the unions are to meet tomorrow to discuss the timetable changes which led to this dispute.
Mr. Taylor: Does the Secretary of State agree that the unofficial action this week has caused acute hardship to the travelling public, who have already been hammered by record fare rises? As railway morale appears to be at an all-time low, and there appears to be the prospect of more industrial trouble to come on the railways, does the Secretary of State agree that it would be appropriate for the ACAS to consider the whole question of how communications can be improved between the British Railways Board and its employees and between ASLEF and its members?
Mr. Foot: The Question is about the dispute. As there is a meeting tomorrow to discuss it, it would be inappropriate for ACAS to intervene. It is much better that the parties should be left to settle it in that way.
Mr. Les Huckfield: Is my right hon. Friend aware that all the other regions of British Rail have been abiding by agreed consultation machinery and that the Eastern Region management seems to want deliberately to flout clause 8 of the consultative guidelines to which British Railways Board agreed on 11th November last? Is my right hon. Friend further aware that, despite the advice of the ASLEF Executive that its members
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should attempt to work normally, depot managements even this morning have been engaging in acts of deliberate provocation? Will my right hon. Friend urge British Railways Board to stick by the guidelines to which it has agreed and to make proper use of the Joint Consultative Council meeting which is to take place tomorrow morning?
Mr. Foot: It is true that in the other regions settlements have taken place without any dispute. I urge all parties in the discussions tomorrow to try to ensure that that applies to the Eastern Region as well as quickly as possible.
Mr. Prior: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Opposition agree that it would be far better for nothing to be said in the House this afternoon which might make the meeting tomorrow more difficult? Does he further agree that in these difficult times for the railway industry the more information that can be given in advance by management as to its future intentions, and the more discussion that can follow, the more likely are we to achieve good industrial relations at a difficult time for the railway industry? We shall give the Secretary of State every support if he pursues that course.
Mr. Foot: I agree with every word uttered by the right hon. Gentleman. That is an extremely embarrassing situation.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Speaker: The Business Statement—the Lord President.
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Edward Short): The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY 15TH MARCH—Second Reading of the Development Land Tax Bill, which we do not propose to move today.
Motion on the Local Loans (Increase of Limit) Order.
TUESDAY 16TH MARCH—Until about 6 o'clock, resumed debate on broadcasting the proceedings of the House.
Afterwards, motion on EEC Documents R/210/76 and R/253/76 on energy policy.

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WEDNESDAY 17TH MARCH—Supply [12th Allotted Day]: The Question will be put on all outstanding Estimates and Votes.
Until about 7 o'clock, private rented housing and the use of the housing stock, and afterwards, commuter rail services; each will arise on a motion for the Adjournment of the House.
Remaining stages of the Housing (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill and of the Education (School-leaving Dates) Bill [Lords].
THURSDAY 18TH MARCH—Until about 7 o'clock, consideration of Lords Amendments to the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Amendment) Bill.
Afterwards, Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill.
FRIDAY 19TH MARCH—Private Members' motions.
MONDAY 22ND MARCH—Supply [13th Allotted Day]: Subject for debate to be announced.
The House will wish to know, Mr. Speaker, that the matter of the Yorkshire and Humberside Economic Planning Council Regional Strategy Review is to be debated in the Standing Committee on Regional Affairs on Wednesday 17th March.
Mrs. Thatcher: The Lord President has made no reference to the subject for debate today. Will he first make that clear, because there may be no next week?
Mr. Short: There is always a next week. The debate today will be on the Adjournment.
Mrs. Thatcher: Whatever the Lord President said, it was not clear. Will he say it again?
Mr. Short: The debate today will be on the motion for the Adjournment of the House. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will be opening the debate if he catches your eye, Mr. Speaker, and he will make it clear that we regard this as a motion of confidence in the Government's economic policy.
Mr. Michael Latham: Concerning this afternoon's business, is the Lord President not able to draft a motion to put
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before the House to express confidence in the Government?
Mr. Short: We should be delighted to draft a motion, but under the Standing Orders of the House it is impossible to put down a motion for today. If we had to have a motion we could not debate it until Monday, and we felt that it was better to dispose of this matter immediately.
Mr. Jay: As the Minister of Agriculture last night, according to Hansard, withdrew his motion on the EEC proposals on skimmed milk powder, will my right hon. Friend assure the House that these damaging proposals will not be put into operation until they have been debated and approved by this House?
Mr. Short: I understand that the decisions have already been taken on these proposals, but if it is desired to have a debate on this matter, I shall certainly try to find time for it.
Mr. Marten: Does that mean, then, that the Regulations which we were going to debate are now in force and are the law of this country?
Mr. Short: As I have said, I shall try to find time for a debate on this if that is desired, but I understand that these proposals were part of the package agreed in Brussels.
Mr. Hooley: Assuming that the little local difficulty can be put right tonight, could my right hon. Friend arrange in the future for some opportunity for the House to debate the very important United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, which could very seriously affect the economy of this country in the world context, and about which important decisions ought to be taken?
Mr. Short: Certainly I shall bear that in mind, without agreeing that what happened last night is a little local difficulty. It is a considerable difficulty. But certainly I shall bear in mind what my hon. Friend said.
Mr. Pym: Will the Leader of the House confirm that the Government had decided last night to accept the Opposition's amendment on the European documents, had those documents been taken—that is to say, to disapprove of them?
Mr. Short: Yes, that is correct. We would have accepted the amendment. Certainly if the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends and my hon. Friends wish for another opportunity to debate these documents, I am sure that that could be found.
Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Will the Leader of the House undertake, on behalf of the Government, that during the debate on the motion of confidence this afternoon no Standing Committees will sit, so that hon. Members who are members of Standing Committees may be present in the Chamber for this most important debate?
Mr. Short: I understand that the main problem was in the Standing Committee on the Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Bill. I gather that it has decided not to meet. But if there are other problems, the two sides can consult together, and I am sure that they can reach agreement. If there are any problems, perhaps I shall be told about them.
Mr. Peyton: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for confirming that the Standing Committee on the Aircraft and Shipbuilding Industries Bill will not sit this afternoon. We appreciate that very much.
I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman a question concerning next week's business. On the day that the Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill is to be taken, half the day is to be devoted to Government business—the Lords Amendments to the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Amendment) Bill. Why is there to be this encroachment on Private Members' time?
Mr. Short: This, I think, is a reasonable thing to do. It is a debate which can go on for a very long time, and I should have thought that this arrangement was quite reasonable.
Mr. Pavitt: Does my right hon. Friend's reply to the question by the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten), on a specific Common Market Regulation, mean that, in effect, any debate we have makes no difference at all to whether the Regulations are carried into effect?
Mr. Short: We received these documents from the Committee very late, I understand, and it is no fault of mine
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that these matters have not been debated this week. But certainly if the House wants to debate them, we can arrange an opportunity.
Sir David Renton: If there is a next week, why will there not be a whole day's debate—as I believe was originally intended—on the Government's Green Paper on direct elections to the European Assembly?
Mr. Short: We certainly hope to have a debate on that later this month. It will, I think, appear in my next business statement.
Mr. Lipton: While my right hon. Friend may not be able to find time in the very near future to debate my Early-Day Motion No. 273 about the Cheltenham Gold Cup, has he satisfied himself that in these troublous days it is essential in the national interest that six hon. Members of this House should visit Cheltenham next week, as the guests of the Horse Race Totalisator Board, and take part in the jollifications there that day?
[That this House, in view of the fact that six honourable Members of the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries have been invited by the Horse Race Totalisator Board to visit the Gold Cup Race at Cheltenham next week, and that employees there in a written memorandum have been advised to give the visiting delegation the big spread treatment, would like to know what the cost of this visit is going to be and who is going to pay.]
Mr. Short: I had not realised the importance of the Cheltenham Gold Cup, but perhaps, when we have disposed of one or two other immediate matters, I can look at the Cheltenham Gold Cup.
Mrs. Bain: Will the Lord President indicate whether the Secretary of State for Scotland, or anyone from the Scottish Office, will speak in today's debate for the Government? Would not this be a welcome deviation, since the only two people from Scotland who have spoken so far have been Members of the Scottish National Party?
Mr. Short: Who speaks in the debate, Mr. Speaker, is entirely a matter for you.
Mr. Corbett: Will my right hon. Friend say when he plans to bring forward legislation on public lending right?
Mr. Short: I cannot give a date, but certainly I shall do my best on this matter. The time is getting on in the Session, and we shall have to find another day for the business originally set down for today. However, I shall bear it in mind.
Mr. Aitken: Does the Leader of the House recall that the last time a Government used a debate on the Adjournment as a vehicle to get a vote of confidence was in 1940, when it was used by Mr. Neville Chamberlain's Government? At the end of that debate, some 40 Back Bench supporters of the Government abstained, and as a result Mr. Neville Chamberlain's Government fell. Will that useful precedent be followed tonight?
Mr. Short: It is not a very happy precedent, I agree, but I explained to the House that the alternative was to put this matter off until Monday. I think it is essential that we remove the uncertainty as quickly as possible and have the debate today, even though we are in the difficulty of having to debate this subject on the Adjournment, being unable to put down a motion.
Mr. John Davies: Has the Lord President had his attention drawn to what happened here on Thursday evening last week? On a motion put forward by the Government concerning the lead content of petrol, the debate terminated without a conclusion, and therefore no note was taken of the Government's motion, despite the fact that many hon. Members were still waiting to speak. Is the Lord President aware that that would hardly conform to the Government's undertaking to have debates before resolutions are agreed in the Council of Ministers? Will he give time for a resumption of that debate?
Mr. Short: Certainly I shall look at that matter. Perhaps I could discuss it with the right hon. Gentleman and see whether we can find more time to conclude what I agree is an extremely important debate, in which a great many hon. Members on all sides are particularly interested.
Mr. Cormack: Will the right hon. Gentleman agree that the Government could have put down a motion last night, and that we should not then have had to hold
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the debate on the Adjournment? Will he further agree that, if he had waited until Monday, there would then have been two extra votes on this side of the House? Is not this a gutless performance by a gutless Government?
Mr. Short: We are debating this matter at the earliest possible moment, as I have said twice already, and it is essential that we remove the uncertainty about the situation. That is why we are having the debate today.
Ms. Colquhoun: Will the Government find time for an early debate on the Lane Committee's Report on abortion, so that this House may look at this very important Report and also talk about it in the open?
Mr. Short: I am afraid that I cannot find any time in the near future to debate that Report.
Mr. Biffen: Will the Leader of the House indicate whether the debate on European energy policy, in respect of certain Community documents, which is scheduled for Tuesday, will also include a debate upon the document on the Joint European Torus, in view of the fact that a debate on this document has been recommended by the Scrutiny Committee, and in the light of the widespread interest throughout this House suggesting that a view should be taken upon this subject at the earliest possible opportunity?
Mr. Short: It was not the intention, but I shall certainly look at that. It is to be an extended debate, lasting, I hope, from about six o'clock until half-past eleven, because of the importance of the subject, but certainly I shall see whether what the hon. Member suggests is generally desirable.
Mr. Speaker: It might be for the convenience of the House if I say that for the debate on Thursday 18th March on the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill, hon. Members may hand in to my office by 9.30 on the morning of Wednesday 17th March their names and the topics which they wish to raise. The ballot will be carried out as on the last occasion. Hon. Members should give their full names, plus the topics. Hon. Members may hand in only their own names and topics.

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The Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill includes certain Defence Supplementary Estimates for the current year, set out in House of Commons Papers Nos. 173 and 238; certain Civil Supplementary Estimates for the current year, set out in House of Commons Papers Nos. 174 and 239; and excesses of Civil and Defence Estimates for 1974–75, as set out in House of Commons Paper No. 254. It will be in order on Second Reading to raise topics falling within the ambit of the expenditure proposed in those papers. I shall put out the results of the ballots later on Wednesday 17th March.

GOVERNMENT ECONOMIC STRATEGY
3.51 p.m.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): I beg to move. That this House do now adjourn.
I want to make it clear at the outset that, as my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House has explained, this motion is on the Adjournment. That is dictated by the procedural rules of the House. Nevertheless, the House must understand that this is a vote of confidence in the Government and the Government's financial and economic policies. No one in any part of the House should be in any doubt concerning what he is voting about tonight.
The fact that this decision of confidence has to be put today at all arises out of one of the most unholy parliamentary alliances in the history of Parliament. Nothing like it has been seen since the Shinwell-Winterton alliance, described in its day as "arsenic and old lace". This time, it is arsenic and red chiffon.
What happened last night was an alliance of hon. Members who would not normally be seen dead with one another. The distinction on this occasion was that the Conservative Opposition, who voted last night, had begun the debate by tabling a serpentine amendment, which was voted down, and which was designed, in its snake-like way—like so many of the Conservative Opposition's proposals these days—to get unaccustomed allies from this side of the House. But my hon. Friends must recognise that they were giving their sedentary support to an Opposition who, throughout the debate, which centred on public expenditure, had the following record: first, the Opposition did not tell us what they would cut; secondly, they did not tell us what they would increase.
By abstaining, my hon. Friends were giving support to an Opposition party whose Shadow Chancellor has said:
"There is no escaping from the fact that this"—
he meant cutting public expenditure now, this year—
"will increase unemployment in the short term".
I may be fastidious, but I would think many times before giving any help whatsoever to an Opposition who have made

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their policy on unemployment as clear as that, because that statement has not been withdrawn by the Shadow Chancellor, nor was it repudiated by the Opposition in this week's debate.
The whole House knows that the Tories are committed to massive increased expenditure—of course they are. We have been through all this before in many debates. They are committed to Maplin. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] It is all right for them to try to forget it now, but they supported it. They have supported it in Opposition as well as in Government. I know that the Leader of the Opposition is repudiating everything which the Government of which she was a member did, but one does not repudiate what one has done in Opposition—on the contrary.
The whole House knows that the increases in public expenditure which the Opposition are advocating include Maplin; the massive rail expenditure on the Channel Tunnel, for which they voted last year, and against which we voted in Opposition; their Leader's election bribe on mortgages and rates, which would have meant hundreds of millions of pounds in expenditure, and which, to their credit, they have not since repudiated; not to mention their demand for large increased expenditure on defence.
So I say to my hon. Friends who gave aid and comfort to the Conservative Opposition last night that they were allying themselves with obscurantism on the main issue of the debate, public expenditure; with a party which has demanded a policy which, on its own admission, would mean increased expenditure this year—it has not denied it; with a party which has advocated a housing policy, including massive rent increases and a local authority housing policy based on ghettos, mainly for slum clearance, the disabled and pensioners. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I am relating this to the speeches of the Leader of the Opposition.
My hon. Friends were associating, in their funny way, with a party whose proposals this week would mean staggering increases in food prices, and, I repeat, to underline the strange nature of this unwritten alliance last night, a party whose proposals would mean massively increased defence expenditure.
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It is not necessary this afternoon to go over all the issues raised in the public expenditure debate. [Interruption.] I would like to leave time for the Opposition to tell us what they are going to cut. My right hon. Friends, in their speeches in the debate, starting——
Mr. Nigel Lawson Mr. Nigel Lawson (Blaby) rose——
The Prime Minister: The hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson) has had more than his fair share of sedentary interruptions today. We must get on. [HON. MEMBERS: "Give way."] If anyone thinks that I am afraid of the hon. Gentleman, my reply is that I used to respect him when he was an editor but I neither fear nor respect him now.
My right hon. Friends, in their speeches during the debate, starting from a highly detailed White Paper, dealt very fully with the main issues, and I do not propose to go over them all again today. What I cannot accept from anyone are those repeated and unwarranted allegations about Her Majesty's Government cutting essential public expenditure. Taking 1979–80, the last of the five years set out in the White Paper, compared with 1973–74, the last year of the Conservative Government, the provision for housing, at constant prices—real value—will have risen by 22·8 per cent. Does anyone in the House object to that? On health and personal social services, the increase will be 12·4 per cent.; for social security, the expenditure will be up by 23·3 per cent., and on other public services by 15·7 per cent.; while on essential capital expenditure in publicly owned industries it will be up by 27·4 per cent.
Those are real increases in necessary expenditure. Whereas the Conservative Government had decided to abolish the regional employment premium, we not only maintained the premium, we doubled it. We are making massive provision for the regeneration of industry, not only through direct financing through the National Enterprise Board but in the successive schemes for modernisation and development of individual industrial sectors including wool textiles, machine tools and the foundry industries. [Interruption.] I hope that my hon. Friends who gave aid and comfort to that lot last night now realise

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the sort of people they are dealing with. There is no accounting for taste.
The figures I have given of increased real expenditure show, in our view, a concentration of public expenditure where it is most needed for social and industrial purposes. Where the programmes are restrained it is in almost every case a restraint in the previous rate of increase, not a cut.
As the House knows—I will not go over the whole argument—there is a need for this degree of restraint in public expenditure because, as world and national recovery proceeds we have to release resources for exports and for increasing industrial production and employment. I hope that Conservative Members will be as ready as we are to recognise that for nearly 30 years under successive Governments we have seen industrial expansion cut off in its prime time after time by the constraints arising from lack of capacity—including lack of skilled manpower—just at the moment when the expansion should continue.
Mr. Peter Rost: Expansion in unemployment.
The Prime Minister: I have said that in every boom since the war it has been cut off by constraints. I hope that hon. Gentlemen understand that. We are concerned as a Government to increase industrial strength by strengthening the size of our industrial manufacturing production. We have also, even in this difficult year, made massive increases in the provision for retraining and industrial training. These are relevant to the question of constraints.
What we have had to face under successive Governments—I make the point impartially—is that over recent years there has been another problem. The period of the boom has tended to get shorter as these constraints bite, and unemployment, both at the top of the boom and at the depths of the depression, has been higher with each turn of the cycle over at least the past 20 years. That is why we are determined, through our industrial policy, the National Enterprise Board, the Scottish and Welsh Development Agencies, the policies endorsed by the National Economic Development Council and the little Neddies and other means of encouraging investment, to
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ensure that as recovery gets under way and the pace of economic activity grows, we are not plunged back into the depression and, once again, increased unemployment.
My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has given the House his assessment of the changing industrial situation. This has been the subject of all recent confidence surveys including the monthly indices of the CBI and the Financial Times. The deep depression which began in the summer and autumn of 1973, before oil hit us, is now beginning to give way slowly to expansion. I have given the references—the CBI and the Financial Times. Those hon. Members who can read and study statistics will have seen them. I am referring here particularly to industrial production plans, capital investment intentions and new orders, particularly export orders.
We have all recognised that a pick-up in employment lags some months behind the first signs of an increase in the other economic indices. [Interruption.] I can tell the House that——
Mr. Speaker: Order. Constant interruptions from a sedentary position amount to barracking. This is a democratic Chamber. I hope that both Front Benches will be heard in reasonable silence.
The Prime Minister: Particularly since I was referring to unemployment. I can tell the House that all the signs now are that the rate of increase in unemployment is running at a very much smaller rate than that which we had last year, including particularly the last three months of last year. I say to my hon. Friends, "Do not throw all this away by these voting and abstaining habits involving the Conservative Party—in the House or elsewhere".
In today's debate the Government are asking, as we have the right to ask, for a vote of confidence in our financial and economic policies. There can be no doubt that our counter-inflationary policies command wide support throughout the country. I know that some—not a great number—of my hon. Friends are opposed to our counter-inflation policy and to our pay policy, as they demonstrated when the legislation went through last summer.
What happened then was a curious inverse of what happened last night. On

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that occasion the alliance was in a different posture. Then it was my hon. Friends who voted against the Government's incomes policy while the Conservatives did the abstaining. Last night it was the Conservatives who voted against it while our hon. Friends did the abstaining. [Interruption.]We are always hearing from right hon. and hon. Ladies and Gentlemen on the Conservative Benches about Marxists. They seem very pleased with their new allies. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Right hon. and hon. Ladies and Gentlemen opposite have always seized on the Tribune Group when they have used that definition. Now they are welcoming its Members as allies.
Even so, I say to my hon. Friends, the fact that on anti-inflation policy they were out of step with the TUC General Council, with last September's Trades Union Congress, with the Labour Party Conference's unanimous decision—[Interruption.] They are entitled to be out of step with all of these. They are entitled to be out of step with the mass of the people, including the great majority of trade unionists.
If this is how they feel, they have the right to do this and in consequence to luxuriate in an odour of sanctification. I appeal to them not to sully that sanctification by giving aid and comfort to a Tory Opposition, particularly one like this. Compared with recent Tory Opposition Front Benches and even Tory Governments—over the years, we have studied them—the postures and pronouncements of right hon. Members opposite are more reactionary, more regressive, than this House has known from the Tory Party for a generation. The Tory Party has nailed to the mast what its leadership has proclaimed as "the opportunity to be unequal". I have never heard any Tory Leader say that in the last 30 years.
The purposes and ideals of this party, proclaimed in two elections, are to build on what previous Labour Governments have done, to achieve a greater equality of opportunity, social equality and sharing of social rights.
Mrs. Margaret Bain Mrs. Margaret Bain (Dunbartonshire East) rose——
The Prime Minister: No, I will not give way. The barracking has taken too
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much time and I want to leave time for other speakers. I have only a short speech to make.
Mrs. Bain: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The barracking has come not from this Bench but from the Tory Benches——
Mr. Speaker: Order. The direction from which it came is not a matter that we are discussing. We had better return to the debate.
The Prime Minister: I said at Question Time in answer to the hon. Member for Blaby that I would refer to the position of sterling. The counter-inflation policy is basic to strengthening the economy and stabilising the value of the currency. Sterling has been relatively firm for some months—[Laughter.] I wish that the House was televised. The Opposition laugh at unemployment. They laugh at questions of sterling. I wish that the House was televised. I have always voted for it. I hope that the Opposition will listen more seriously.
I said that sterling has been relatively firm for some months. Although there was a good deal of disturbance in exchange markets affecting other currencies in recent weeks, sterling has enjoyed a welcome period of calm. We have to face the fact that the sterling exchange rate is determined basically by market forces. Although we have made substantial headway in bringing inflation down in this country over the past months, our inflation rate is still above that of other important countries and it was inevitable that the market should at some stage exert some downward pressure on the exchange rate, which is what we have seen in the last few days.
In line with our concern to minimise the disturbance both domestically and internationally, we have shown our determination by appropriately-directed intervention to restore stable conditions. We all agreed to act in this way at Rambouillet last year. We shall continue to do this to the extent necessary. Although obviously it would be wrong for me to say more in public about the techniques or intentions about intervention policy, I repeat that the Government are prepared to assert their full determination to provide whatever protection is necessary.

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This whole episode underlines once more the fact that the key need for the future is tackling inflation, which is precisely what the Government are doing and what the Tory Party did not even have an opinion about when we debated it. I repeat that the House is aware of—I hope that I can say that hon. Members in all parts of the House are pleased with—the progress made in the battle against inflation. Further figures published this week demonstrate a continuing and favourable trend in this matter, although inevitably they were overshadowed by other widely-reported events.
The Bank of England, which we all know is never fearful of expressing its own assessment and judgment and criticism, whatever party is in power, has published this morning its analysis of future prospects. On inflation, its conclusion is:
"It will be surprising if, later this year, the retail price index was much out of line with the Chancellor's target."
I would have hoped for some murmur of approval from the Tory Party at that statement. I suppose that it must be a great disappointment to them because they played no part in this improvement. When the great call came and the debate was held, they sat on their hands without a policy.
Therefore, however this may be concealed or confused in economic discussion, the whole House knows that a successful attack on unemployment depends on success in dealing with the challenge of inflation. The Government have made this our primary task. We rejected the policy of forcing anything on the people by statutory incomes control. Our policy has been accepted by the country, because, as we always urged, it is based on agreement, on consent and co-operation.
I repeat—this policy had the support of the majority of the people, including those engaged at all levels in industry. Therefore, the Government have the right to ask the House for the vote of confidence in our financial and economic policies which we seek today. It is on that basis that I ask for that vote of confidence.
4.16 p.m.
Mrs. Margaret Thatcher: I see nothing in what the Prime Minister has said today or in his Government's economic performance which would
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justify any vote of confidence in him tonight. One would scarcely think from his catalogue that, in their first two years his Government had slashed nearly a third off the value of the pound in the pocket, that they had made unemployment rise to levels to which it never rose under any post-war Conservative Government or that they had borrowed anything like as much as this Government have done. One might say with the Paymaster-General that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster is the most unequal Socialist of them all.
Yesterday evening, after two days of full debate on the Government's economic strategy as set out in the White Paper, and in the absence of the Prime Minister, the Government were decisively defeated and their White Paper policy completely discredited. That defeat took place when the Government's overall majority in the House was three and their practical majority at least seven.
All that the Prime Minister had to do to ensure the continuation of his Government's policies was to carry his own side with him and to win the confidence of his own people. In that he totally failed. In view of his policy of calculated insult today, that is not surprising. He unwittingly revealed the wide gulf which separates the two wings of the Labour Party——
The Minister of State, Department of Industry (Mr. Gerald Kaufman): What about yours?
Mrs. Thatcher: What the Prime Minister has is a coalition of Socialists and near-Marxists. He, and only he, is responsible for that failure to keep his own party behind his own Government. That is why he is so angry today—because it is his own failure that is on trial.
There is no precedent for defeat on such a major matter on Supply. The defeat was not on a minor matter such as we have seen before. Governments have been defeated on single clauses in the past, and they have altered a clause. They have been defeated on an Order, and they have altered an Order. No one has suggested that these were resigning matters. The Government were defeated recently over the salary of the Secretary of State for Industry and no one suggested that that was a resigning matter. But

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when there is a defeat on a matter of major economic strategy, a matter central to the historic nature of the power of the House of Commons over the Executive, that is a resigning matter.
The Government laid before the House a White Paper which they described as their plans for public expenditure until the end of the decade—if they stayed in office. But they did not put down a motion to approve the White Paper, because the Government presumably thought they would be defeated if they were as straightforward as that. Instead they used another motion as a device to avoid defeat. That device proved to be their own undoing and led to their defeat Indeed, it brought about the very defeat they sought to avoid.
The Prime Minister then comes to the House and asks for a vote of confidence today. But a vote of confidence cannot, and is not meant to, paper over a fundamental divide in strategy, a divide which goes to the root of policy. I quote from The Times of this morning a remark made by the hon. Member for Padding-ton (Mr. Latham) referring to a vote of censure or a motion of confidence:
"Our abstention is not against the Government but against one very important aspect of its policy, namely the general economic strategy now being followed."
That was what the vote was about. It was against the general economic strategy which the Government are following.
Today we have further revelations. The hon. Lady the Member for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mrs. Short) says there will have to be a reply from the Government and, she says:
"Our reaction will depend on what they say. If they are not prepared to budge, then they will get a similar reaction again."
If the Prime Minister gets a bigger vote tonight they will not have had a miraculous conversion to the Government's strategy. Those people will still disagree with his strategy and, according to what they say, still intend to go on doing so unless it is changed. But the Paymaster-General in winding up for the Government shortly before the vote said:
"I believe we have no choice other than to follow the policies set out in the White Paper."—[Official Report, 10th March 1976; Vol. 907, c. 554.]
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So the rift is still there and would still be there in spite of any vote tonight. It is a rift which goes to the root of the Government's policy, and it is a rift which cannot be cured by any vote of confidence tonight.
It shows the main difference between the two wings of the Labour Party. One wants to continue with a mixed economy, the other wants a totally controlled economy. Between those two there can only ever be conflict. Further, we must look at the position of the Chancellor of the Exchequer negotiating on Britain's finances with other nations. He cannot say to them, "This is my policy and I can carry it through because I have a majority in the House of Commons". All he can say, whether in Washington or in any European capital, is "I can get through the House only what the Tribune Group will allow me to get through", and he will have to go on to say, "And I would rather stay in office under their thumb than carry out the policies which I and moderate Socialists believe are right for Britain".
What will happen, assuming that the vote goes the way the Prime Minister wants tonight, when we come to some of the Budget proposals and the right hon. Gentleman has the same kind of revolt from his own left wing? Are they going to say, "Yes, we have confidence in you to keep you in office but only if you do the things which we, a small minority, wish you to do"? The Chancellor is selling his soul, and Britain, for a handful of votes to keep himself in office. The Government are in this position. We, the Opposition, disagree with the Government's economic strategy. The Tribune Group disagrees with the general economic strategy now being followed. The Prime Minister therefore is asking the House to support him, provided his Government do not carry out their economic strategy. What a ridiculous and absurd position to get the House of Commons into!
The right hon. Gentleman is asking his hon. Friends to support him in principle even though they disagree with him in principle. It is his Government who are on trial. The Prime Minister is asking for the confidence of his own hon. Friends even though he knows that he has not got it and cannot get it. He is asking to stay in office even though he cannot command

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the authority to govern. He cannot follow the policies of his Government and in particular of his Chancellor. Last night there was a vote of no confidence in his strategy. Today's vote is a device to keep him in power—power without authority, power without principle. That is a position admirably suited to the right hon. Gentleman.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose——
Mr. Speaker: Order. May I tell the House before I call the next speaker that today I am not following a list of hon. Members who have sent in their names. I shall do my best to hold the balance of debate as I look at the House.
4.28 p.m.
Mr. Jeremy Thorpe: I want to address to the Prime Minister a question to which I suspect this House would value an answer and to which I believe the people of this country would require an answer. It is this: when the right hon. Gentleman is looking to the economic strategy of this country, what is his first priority? Is it to unite, in the weeks and months ahead, the Parliamentary Labour Party for the backing of the Government's economic strategy? If so, I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman will have to pay such a high price that the economy of this country will founder. Or is his first priority to evolve an economic strategy that will gain the overwhelming support of the House of Commons and the backing of the British nation? If it be the latter, I suggest that the price that he would have to pay for achieving that objective would be to bypass his own left wing, because last night, as he has been the first to admit, he was not defeated by the combined vote of the Opposition; he was defeated by the desertion of Members of his own party.
Just as every Member of this House is proud to claim that he represents not only those who voted for him at the General Election but all the voters within his constituency, so, on a national scale, the Prime Minister of this country is responsible for the affairs of the whole nation. I say straight away that that is a grave and very lonely burden, and those who have shouldered it have been, and must have been, dedicated to the public service of this country, whether or not one agrees with their policies.
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The Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer know that in the coming months we may have to take tougher economic measures than we have seen since the war. The Prime Minister is dealing with irreconcilable forces. On the one hand, he is supported enthusiastically by the Social Democrats, who are for Europe, for a mixed economy, for free trade, and for a prices and incomes policy, voluntary if possible but, I suspect, statutory if necessary. On the other hand, he has, physically and geographically, those on his Benches who are not Social Democrats but Socialists. They have a perfectly straightforward and logical philosophy, which I respect but with which I profoundly disagree. They are against Europe. They are in favour of import controls. They believe that the contribution of private enterprise to the economy is minimal. They believe that investment must be State-controlled and largely State-instigated. They are in favour of a level of public expenditure which, in my view, would have a catastrophic effect on our economy.
We know that in July, when the £6-a-week limit comes to an end, tougher measures will have to be taken which may command the support of the TUC but which I doubt will command the support of a majority of the Parliamentary Labour Party. The Prime Minister knows that this will not be the first time that his Government have been unable to command support for measures that he is convinced are in the national interest.
The right hon. Gentleman talked about the way in which the Tribune Group had been overruled. I remind him that, on the great issue of Europe, he was overruled by the votes of the Parliamentary Labour Party, the National Executive of the Labour Party, the special conference of the Labour Party and the TUC itself. Therefore, the right hon. Gentleman rightly believed that he had to appeal over the heads of his own party, and the referendum produced a two-to-one majority in favour of Europe.
The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is talking about Europe and the appeal to the public. That decision was taken long before any of these events. It is true that there were the votes of some of my hon. Friends, of the National Executive, and of the special conference,

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but as we had already put the matter for decision to the country, all that mattered was the decision by the country.
Mr. Thorpe: All I was saying—I do not think that the Prime Minister and I are in disagreement—was that on the issue of Europe, the Parliamentary Labour Party, the National Executive of the Labour Party, the special conference of the Labour Party and the TUC took a different view from that of the right hon. Gentleman and his Cabinet colleagues. I accept straight away that the idea of a referendum was conceded long before those votes. The Prime Minister is sometimes very far-sighted, and I congratulate him on that. I believe that he foresaw and prepared for such an eventuality. All I am saying is that it will be within his recollection that on certain issues, when he believed he was right, he was unable to carry with him the majority of the Labour Party and therefore had to look for a wider measure of support from outside.
That happened on the issue of Europe. The Conservative and Liberal votes, added to the pro-Europe votes of the Government, got a majority. Without those votes, there would have been no majority. I can proudly claim that, under the Premiership of the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath), on Second Reading of the European Communities Bill, in the final analysis the vote of the minority of Liberals saved that issue. All I am saying is that there are occasions when Governments have to go beyond the confines of their own political parties to gain support for measures which they think are right. I recall that much the same happened on the issue of prices and incomes.
This is not a new situation. I suppose that, historically, the House of Commons was never stronger than when a Government, to gain a majority for their measures, had to convince the majority of the House through the sheer intellectual force of the argument by the Minister of the day. That was before Governments could rely on the luxury of Whips and automatic majorities.
I do not believe that opposition should be an automatic reflex because parties sit on the Opposition Benches. Since 1968 the major political parties have tried—
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in my view, with success—to maintain a united approach to the question of Northern Ireland. Indeed, as I have already indicated, there has been cross-party support for Europe. Why? Because we believed that those two issues transcended the normal differences which divided the political parties in this House. Northern Ireland presented a desperately serious situation. We believed that the issue of Europe would affect the whole economic and political future of this country. I believe that view was taken whether people were pro- or anti-Market.
Is the economy of this country of any less importance or significance to this House than the problems of Northern Ireland and Europe, upon which we had cross-party support? We are considering the collapse of the pound. Whatever the right hon. Gentleman may say, the pound dropped below two dollars yesterday. If that had been prophesied three years ago, we would have regarded it as an impossibility. That can affect the jobs and savings of our people and the survival of Britain itself. Therefore, is it not possible for there to be some greater measure of accord on our economic strategy?
The right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) has a very simple solution. She did not go so far as to say it, but she implied it. The right hon. Lady implied the traditional formula—that all we require is for the party in power to go out and for the party in opposition to take over. I do not believe that in that context the right hon. Lady, in her heart, can claim that the measures that this country will require will be carried on the authority of any one political party in this House. It will need a certain—[Interruption.] Perhaps I may be allowed to explain. I am not suggesting a coalition, or anything comparable with that. I hope that the House will agree that the degree of cross-party unity that has been shown on Northern Ireland and on Europe has been commendable to the people of this country.
There is no question that jobs depend upon investment; there is no doubt that investment depends upon stability, and that stability depends on political continuity. Since the war we have had a three-year cycle of government.
On average no Government has lasted more than three years. They have usually

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spent the first year in office reversing—[Interruption.] The average cycle of Governments has been three years. "Average", if the House is unaware of the definition, means that some have been in office for longer and others for shorter periods.
The first job of any Government on coming into power has been to reverse what their predecessors did. In the second, third or fourth years they then reintroduce the legislation in a different guise. One example is the prices and incomes policy. In 1966 the Labour Government tried to introduce a prices and incomes policy, so the Tory Opposition opposed it. In 1973 the Tory Government reversed their decision and introduced a prices and incomes policy, so the Labour Opposition opposed it. In 1975 a Labour Government tried to introduce a £6-a-week policy, and the Tories, with a slight variant, merely abstained. That is the way policy has gone on in this country, and it is crazy.
It should be possible for certain guidelines in the economy to be agreed in the House. I believe that industry is less interested and that indeed the trade unions, strangely enough, are more interested in stability for the next five to 10 years than in the particular hue or depth of the colour of the party in power. For example, if industry knew that for the next five years there was a clear and agreed strategy for investment, and if workers in industry knew that there was a definite policy of economic growth, which would be backed by an agreed investment policy, and that the tax system would be used to reward those who shared profits, and that the rate of profit would not be guaranteed but would at least be regulated, so that people could plan for the next five years, we would reduce that degree of instability and uncertainty in the economy which has bedevilled investment and caused British industry to lag behind the rest of the world.
It should be possible to achieve a measure of agreement on prices and incomes, but it will happen only if it is thought to be fair and it is not thought that there is an Opposition waiting in the wings to repeal it as a matter of political vote-getting and expediency.
I believe that in July it will be much tougher than anyone has yet foreseen. I
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do not believe that the right hon. Gentleman will have a majority in his own party. He may well have to appeal beyond the confines of his own party in the Division Lobby.
We should try to get agreement not only on some of the guidelines in the economy but within the European dimension itself. Now that the Government have rightly overridden their left wing on Europe—as I now advise them to do on the economy—there is scope for planning with our European partners.
Why is it that the leaders of all the political parties—minority and majority parties—can sit down with the right hon. Gentleman in Downing Street and discuss security in Northern Ireland? Why is it that on such issues we can get agreement, and yet when we deal with the question of the economy we have to fight it in the full gladiatorial atmosphere of a parliamentary debate? [Interruption.] I believe that a party which cannot even make up its mind on prices and incomes and the £6-a-week policy, and has to abstain—a party which puts out two different sets of statistics on unemployment; those from Conservative Central Office and those from the Think-Tank of the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph), for both of which the right hon. Lady is responsible—does not have an alternative policy in the wings. However, everyone knows that the Government's White Paper on public expenditure is not what the Chancellor wanted. It is not what the Cabinet wanted. It was as much as the Government thought they could get away with and still retain the support of their own left wing. But events have shown that they went a little too far—not as far as they would have liked—for that purpose.
Therefore, in the coming months the Prime Minister has to show, in his management of the economy, whether he is the pawn of the Tribune Group or the tribune of the people. That is the choice he has to make. If he adopts the latter position he is entitled to the support of the British people, in all political parties, for agreed measures. But it will mean that many items must be dropped and that the country and its economic management is more important than the holy writ of the Labour Party manifesto. If the right hon. Gentleman does not take that view, and his first priority is the

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Tribune Group, I believe that he does not deserve the confidence of this House. Certainly on the basis of the speech that we have heard today my right hon. and hon. Friends and I shall not be voting that the House should give him a vote of confidence tonight.
4.56 p.m.
Mr. Donald Stewart: Unlike the right hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe), I have never been invited to Downing Street to discuss affairs in Northern Ireland, and if that is regarded as the result of consensus politics, I am delighted that I have no responsibility for that type of arrangement. I thought that the right hon. Gentleman made a better speech in defence of the Government than did the Prime Minister. I agree that the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition is in a poor position from which to attack the Government on economic affairs. As my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll (Mr. MacCormick) pointed out in Committee today, this is a caretaker Government. In terms they have a very inconsiderable mandate indeed, and despite that they set out on an orgy of legislation most of it contentious—which is fair enough—but much of it irrelevant. Some of it is mischievous and part of it possibly dangerous.
My hon. Friends and I do not look with any favour on the advent of a Conservative Government. Both the Labour and the Conservative Parties are guilty of the decline and fall of the United Kingdom since the end of the war. It is curious how often Labour Front Bench spokesmen repel attacks with the defence that what they are doing is what was done by the previous Administration. They never seem to think that that is an insufficient defence.
Both Conservative and Labour Governments are guilty of acting like the prodigal son, wasting their substance in riotous living and in supporting lunacies like the Concorde, of which Scotland's share is the share of the losses and nothing else.
In one period of sanity—and I congratulate the Government on it—they cancelled the Channel Tunnel project, but they should have killed two birds with one stone and blocked each end of the tunnel with a Concorde aircraft and cemented the ends up.
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It surely is not possible for the Government, having been defeated on the question of their future economic programme, to seek to stagger on. When the economic forecasts are based on figures of which the Treasury spokesmen have virtually said, "If you do not like them, think of some figures on your own", it is time to call a halt.
The Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer are promising light at the end of the tunnel several years hence. The Prime Minister is a great exponent of "jam tomorrow". In the Labour Government between 1964 and 1970 he made the following forecasts. In December 1964 he said:
"Now that the decks are cleared I see every reason for confidence."
In February 1965 he said:
"The future is bright with promise".
In September 1965 he said:
"I believe we are now at a turning point".
At the Labour Party Conference in 1965 he said:
"The economy is strong. Sterling is strong. Employment is strong".
In October 1967 he said:
"We are now able to look forward to rising production and rising employment".
It is interesting that in the 1964 election he declared:
"You cannot go cap in hand to the central bankers, as the Tores have done, and maintain your freedom of action whether on policies maintaining full employment and even on social policies".
The £6 pay limit was sold to the unions as the alternative to unemployment and now we are landed with both. What is the carrot that the Government will use for the donkey the next time round?
In Scotland unemployment is up by about 60 per cent. on the figures at the time of the last General Election. The construction industry is in the doldrums. We have a lobby this very day of Scottish fishermen whose fishing grounds have been attacked by the EEC partners—the Danes, the Belgians and the French. The fishermen are now closing the West Coast to their own fishing vessels in the hope of preserving the stocks.
Two items from today's Press pinpoint the Scottish situation. First, there is the report of a tremendously valuable new oil find, and. second, a report on

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regional survey research shows that Scottish families have the second highest cost of living of any region in the United Kingdom—in short, a nation of great resources whose people are obliged to be deprived of their birthright.
Then there was a sell-out on the Assembly Bill. It was unfortunate for the Leader of the House to be speaking in Scotland yesterday and selling the devolution proposals as a package which the Scots would be well advised to take up as his hon. Friends in Scotland were cobbling together a new package which they say would much improve the existing one. Yet the one that existed before was perfect, according to the Leader of the House.
Under Westminster practice Scotland has received scurvy treatment from the Government. We have suffered, whether under Conservative or Labour Governments. It makes no difference. The Labour Government is alleged to be in business to inaugurate Socialism. I am not saying whether they are right or wrong in that, but it seems that they lack the guts to inaugurate Socialism and the competence to administer capitalism, and therefore it is time that they were away.
We are in the situation of $1·90 to the pound, where India, regarded as one of the poorest countries in the world, has revalued the rupee twice against the pound sterling. We wish to depart. As Scots we have never had any confidence in any Government in this place, and this Government have run true to form. They will certainly not receive a vote of confidence from my party.
4.52 p.m.
Mr. Les Huckfield: I intend to return to the subject which the House should be debating tonight, which is the Government's general economic strategy. Although I had some severe reservations about that policy, I was in the Lobby with the Government last night. Anyone who made that decision and is a member of the Tribune Group should not only explain himself to his parliamentary colleagues, but should explain to the Government why he has those reservations.
I regard many of the proposals in the White Paper as particularly regressive for working-class families. The penal increases on such things as school meals
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charges, bus fares and food prices will bear particularly hard on the people who elected the Government, the people who thought that this Government could best represent the interests of working people. When a Government like that almost desert the people who must have put them in power, it gives rise to severe reservations about the strategy which is being pursued.
However, I have noted—and I hope that many of my hon. Friends have, too—that the Chancellor has at least said that he would be prepared to listen to alternatives, that he is prepared to discuss matters within that strategy. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor will listen to some of the points now being put forward by the trade union movement, because it must be the trade union movement with which he must discuss the next phase of his counter-inflation policy.
There is bound to be tremendous pressure during the next round of wage negotiations if trade union members are faced with paying some of the increased charges which will result directly from the strategy in the White Paper. If my right hon. Friend wants to gain the support of the trade unions and of their rank and file, he must listen carefully to some of the objections which they will put forward to the strategy.
Anybody who opposes the strategy of the Government has an obligation and moral duty to put forward a viable set of alternatives. It is there that I part company with some of my hon. Friends with whom I am normally in close alignment. I have severe doubts about the viability and practicability of their economic proposals. I ask my hon. Friends to respect the fact that I have been consistent, because I expressed severe doubts about the alternatives they put forward at the time that the £6 limit was being discussed. I still have severe doubts about the practicability of their alternatives in facing the more serious economic situation at present before the country. I have read the article by my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, West (Mr. Sedgemore) in Tribune very carefully, and a very good contribution it is to this debate. I only wish that we had had such excellent contributions from the Conservative side. But, with respect to my hon. Friend, it

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is not the percentage of gross national product which goes into public expenditure which is important. It is not important that other countries may have had just as fast an increase in their percentage of GNP going to the public sector. It is not important that other countries may be paying just as much of their GNP in tax revenue. The most important point was that made by my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary—that no country in the world can continue paying 60 per cent. of its GNP to the public sector without economic growth on which to base it.
A logical and consistent alternative strategy must be proposed. It must initially give us the growth and the industrial structure on which we can base increased levels of public expenditure, which all members of the Labour Party would like to see Consequently, when my hon. Friends object to the Chancellor's proposals, they must recognise that there cannot continue the 20 per cent. increase in public expenditure of the past three years when in the past two years there has been only 2 per cent. economic growth and, in the last quarter, a fall in economic growth.
Given the National Institute prediction of a 1·3 per cent. increase in growth this year, that is insufficient to support the levels of public expenditure that some of my hon. Friends would like to see. Our object should be to create alternatives which will give us the economic structure and the rate of economic growth which will then enable us to move on to increasing public expenditure.
I do not believe that a policy of import controls will result in a saving of £3,000 million of imports and 4 to 5 per cent. per annum rate of growth. The imposition of import controls will result in immediate retaliation from many sectors, and we need many of those countries to buy our exports if we are to get that export-led growth. Apart from that, a policy of import controls could even further undermine confidence in this country both for investment and loans.
The strategy put forward by my hon. Friends, which is based on import controls, is not the main answer to this problem. It is only by a major shift of resources into the manufacturing capacity
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of British industry—this is where the Chancellor is right—that we can achieve the rate of growth that we need. We must have the regeneration of British industry before we can achieve the rate of growth to which the Chancellor referred.
I am not so much critical of the kind of proposals for cuts which the Chancellor mentioned, but I do not believe that my right hon. Friend's proposals to shift resources into industry will give us the industrial regeneration that the country so badly needs. I represent a Coventry car-manufacturing constituency. Throughout the West Midlands the only significant investment is that being made with Government money. My right hon. Friend said that he moves £500 million a year on his Department's Vote into industry. I regret that that will not produce the increase in manufacturing capacity that the country needs.
At present private industry has a comparable rate of return with private industry on the Continent. There is the record of private industry during the deliberate Barber boom of 1972–74 when British industry put money not into factories but into office blocks. For every £100 million of investment that private industry wants it can increase its prices by at least £20 million under the Price Code concession. In spite of all the facilities now being afforded to private manufacturing industry, it still will not invest. Therefore, what else can my right hon. Friend do to get private industry to invest?
Mr. E. Fernyhough: It is not true that private industry is not investing. If my hon. Friend looks at the figures he will appreciate that investment is being made in the Common Market, not in this country.
Mr. Huckfield: My right hon. Friend cannot escape the fact that British private industry is now investing less in real terms than it did 20 years ago.
Mr. Patrick Cormack (Staffordshire), South-West: Rubbish.
Mr. Huckfield: The hon. Member for Staffordshire, South-West (Mr. Cormack), who occasionally comes down from the clouds, cannot explain it all by lack of profit. The comparable rate of return

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in Europe is roughly the same as that in this country. There are comparable marketing situations. The hon. Gentleman cannot explain it by excess capacity.
Mr. Cormack: What about tax?
Mr. Huckfield: Or by taxation differences. He can explain it only by the total unwillingness of British private industry to invest in new manufacturing capacity.
Mr. Huckfield: I conclude from the fact that private industry is not investing in my constituency that the Government will have to invest for it. Over the next four years the National Enterprise Board will have only some £950 million to invest £400 million of which is already pre-empted by what we have pledged to do for Rolls-Royce and British Leyland.
If we look at the period of the Industrial Reorganisation Corporation between 1964 and 1970 and allow for a rate of inflation of 160 per cent. since that period, it is plain that the NEB will have at its disposal no more money to intervene than the IRC had before it. Far from being the major source of regeneration of British industry, I am sad to say that the NEB will be little more than a cottage hospital. That is the kind of future which seems to be shaped for the NEB.
Mr. Mike Thomas: Has my hon. Friend noticed, as I have, that after the extraordinary fuss that was made in this House last night—I notice the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Lamont) sliding towards the Dispatch Box—not one Opposition Member deigns to listen to this debate, let alone take part in it?
Mr. Huckfield: Many of us noted the lack of sincerity on the face of the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) last night when she asked for the Government's resignation. That is one of the least enthusiastic duties that I have yet seen the right hon. Lady perform. When we note the absentees on all Opposition Benches, we have reached a situation in which we have more prayer cards than hon. Gentlemen. Perhaps that is an indication of the place where the Conservative Party places its faith.
Mr. Cranley Onslow: What does the hon. Gentleman expect when he is speaking?
Mr. Huckfield: If the hon. Gentleman rises, even the Strangers' Gallery will empty.
Many of us supported the Government last night only with great difficulty. We do not enjoy seeing the kind of effects which the Chancellor's proposals will have on our constituents. We do not particularly enjoy the regressive indirect taxes—that is what they are—which many of our constituents will be forced to pay.
When I fought the two General Elections in 1974, I thought that this Government would secure a massive, irreversible and fundamental shift in the balance of power in favour of those I was elected to represent. We take a step backwards with the strategy outlined in the White Paper.
However, I sympathise with the Chancellor because I recognise that he has only a limited degree of manoeuvrability. His ambition to shift resources into manufacturing industry to enable growth is right. Unless we have economic growth and investment in manufacturing capacity, we cannot have further public expenditure, irrespective of how much we want it.
The Chancellor's idea was right, but it needs improving if we are to get the industrial regeneration that this country so sorely needs. That industrial regeneration will not come from placing the main emphasis on private enterprise. The regeneration of British industry will come only if the Government invest. That has been shown to be the case in the Midlands and will be the case in all other parts of the country. If there is not investment in the Midlands and the development areas—which we are traditionally supposed to help—all those areas that have depended upon the offshoots of Midland firms cannot be expected to survive.
I shall continue to support the Government, because their basic idea of placing the emphasis on industrial capacity is correct. However, we have not gone far enough in that direction.
5.08 p.m.
Mr. Julian Amery: The hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Huckfield has raised major and serious economic issues. However, they are of an order that we have discussed for the past two days. I hope that he will forgive

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me if I direct my attention, in what I hope will be a brief intervention, to the major constitutional issue that faces us today.
It is a melancholy fact that there are only about 30 parliamentary democracies left in the world today. Each of us has our own definition of democracy but, broadly speaking, it is a constitution where the electorate is able to dismiss and appoint the party of its choice even if, through an accident in the way the votes are cast, as in our case, less than 30 per cent.—to be accurate 28 per cent.—of the potential electorate have returned the present Government. However, I do not dissent from that aspect of the principle because it has been part of our constitution for a very long time.
Equally, it has been part of our tradition that Parliament is supreme, and that, while it would be absolutely wrong that on any hole-in-the-corner, snap vote on some minor issue the Government should have to resign, at the same time, when there is a defeat of the Government on an essential issue of policy it is very questionable, to say the least, whether the Government should not reconsider their position, when they find themselves in the position in which the present Government found themselves last night.
Our debate today takes place on the Adjournment. The last time there was a vote of confidence on the Adjournment, to the best of my knowledge, was in the Norwegian debate in 1940. Filial duty forbids me from plagiarising what my father said on that occasion—and with some effect—but perhaps I might be allowed to recall what Mr. Lloyd George said, in the last great speech that he made in the House of Commons, to Mr. Churchill. I would address the same remarks to the present Chancellor of the Exchequer. That is, that he should not allow himself to be made into an air-raid shelter to defend the Prime Minister in present circumstances.
In his opening remarks, the Prime Minister talked about an unholy alliance between his hon. Friends below the Gangway and those of us on the Opposition side of the House. I am not sure that it was an unholy alliance. I think that it was an alliance against humbug. Of course, our views are totally different from
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those of Labour Members below the Gangway, but there is a certain sense in which, while not agreeing on the issues, we see them equally clearly. Just as right hon. and hon. Members below the Gangway have a very definite point of view in their attack upon the mixed economy and the capitalist system, so we have a very clear view in our reasons for defending it. This clarity of minds produces a certain understanding between us which is fudged and blurred on the Benches above the Gangway.
After all, we in this House know each other fairly well—thanks to all-night sittings and so on. We know that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Home Secretary, the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State for Defence and a great many of the top hamper of the Government are, on economic matters, very much closer in their thinking to us on the Opposition side of the House than they are to their hon. Friends below the Gangway.
Sir Winston Churchill insisted, rightly or wrongly, that the House of Commons should be rebuilt in its present rectangular form, which accentuates the division between the parties. However, we all know—it is said as much below the Gangway as it is on the Opposition Benches, and perhaps more—that the real alliance is between the Opposition side of the House and those who are sometimes called the Social Democrats. We know that in the House of Commons today and in British political life outside the House there is a real split between those who believe in the mixed economy and all that goes with it, to a greater or lesser degree, and those who want to see Socialism interpreted in a different form, and no longer in the form of a Social Democracy such as has been advocated by the Labour Party over many years.
This does not apply to the economy alone. It applies in foreign policy and in defence policy. We have had repeatedly an alliance between the Government Front Bench and the Opposition on defence. We have had an alliance on not all but many aspects of foreign policy, but with a dissentient voice on both policies from the Benches below the Gangway. I am not complaining about this, but it is a fact of life which in a sense contradicts the geography of the House of Commons.

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If we had a semi-circular Chamber the whole thing might be expressed very differently.
The vote last night turned on a major central issue of Government policy. It was an issue that had been debated over two days. It was a Budget, in a sense —a Treasury issue—on how the economy of this country should be conducted, and from the decisions taken flowed a whole host of issues, affecting foreign policy, defence policy, social policy, industrial policy and the whole of our national life. On this great issue there was a clear split in the Labour Party. Whatever papering is put over the division tonight, it can never be glad, confident morning again. The division has brought the split out into the open. We all knew that it was there, but it is now there for all to see.
What is sad about it is that the solidity of British political life, which has been so much admired and respected abroad, is now shown up to be something very different from what it was. Perhaps it is no coincidence that the slide of the pound should coincide with the deterioration of the House of Commons into something not unlike the Italian Assembly of Deputies, where no one is quite sure where the power lies or what the combinations—combinaziones—are, and how the Government will get out of their difficulty and what concessions they will have to make to buy the next round.
It seems to me that this is a negation of the strong tradition of this country that the Queen's Government rests upon the support of the House of Commons. It is now seeking to rest tonight on the support of a party which, on a central issue, has admitted its own division. This cannot be healed or bound up in any easy way, because if the Government were to make concessions to the views of the Left wing, the pound would disappear, and if they do not and the Left wing accepts it, the Left wing will be sacrificing its principles for the rather worn out concept of party solidarity.
Which way will things go? I should have thought that the course of honour would be for the Government either to resign or to dissolve. It could be for the Government to resign, and if we on the Opposition side of the House were unable to form a Government—perhaps to form a new Government in different
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circumstances—to dissolve and put these great matters to the test of public opinion, as indeed they will be put in the by-elections tonight.
5.19 p.m.
Mr. Tom Litterick: I fear that if there were a General Election next week or soon afterwards, all that would happen would be that there would be a rehearsal of the shared views of the two Front Benches, which would be magnified and amplified by the media once again, so that the people would once again feel that they had no choice.
The debate on this occasion has been brought about by the fact that we here recognise that there is a need to define differences in politics and that there are real differences to be reflected in this Chamber. I think that the Chancellor, inadvertently, in his behaviour to hon. Members the day before yesterday, reflected the fact that he found more friends on the Opposition Benches than he could find on the Government side of the House. His abuse of my hon. Friends was a reflection of this interesting fact of our political life.
When I first spoke in the Chamber 15 or 16 months ago I was, as it were, wishing the Government well. I spoke about the need to capture the confidence of the ordinary family. Behind us was all the rhetoric that was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Huckfield) about making a shift in the balance of power and wealth to the advantage of ordinary families.
There was then a statement to the effect that the oncoming crisis, that was then advancing rapidly upon us, should be used as the occasion for a radical transformation of society and not as an excuse for running away from the need to transform.
Since then we have had a series of retreats and a blurring of issues. I regret to have to say it, but it is fairly obvious that the Government have attempted to frighten the British people into accepting certain policies on the basis that there is but one possible set of policies, the alternative to which is total catastrophe. We all know that they have succeeded in frightening many people into believing that.

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As all my hon. Friends know, those who are connected with the Labour movement and those who habitually vote for the Labour Party have a great loyalty to the movement and the party. It is on that loyalty that the Government Front Bench capitalise. It is so far still living on it, but I have a duty to warn it that this capital is rapidly being eroded.
A short time ago the Prime Minister asserted that no cuts were being made. He said that the whole matter was relative and that there were only cuts in the estimates. My right hon. Friend is not the only one of my colleagues to make that assertion.
Let him recognise that my city of Birmingham is a stricken city, a city which now has to bear the burden of more than 50,000 unemployed for the first time in living memory. It is a city which is having to endure cuts by the health authority of about 40 per cent. It is having to face cuts in social services of the order of 20 per cent., cuts in school building of about one third, and almost the total annihilation of the pre-school building programme. It is having to endure cuts in public transport subsidies, which mean higher fares for the lower income groups. Cuts are being made to house improvement grants. There is a total freeze on municipal house mortgages and there are cuts in the house improvement spending programme.
It happens that three days ago I received a letter from the chief city housing officer. It refers to a set of municipally owned properties in Har-bourne Lane, Selly Oak, which look as if they have been shelled. Not one of them is weatherproof. Families are living in these houses, and every time it rains they get wet. The children suffer from asthma and the usual physical disorders associated with living in uninhabitable houses.
There is a plan—there always seems to be one—to demolish and redevelop the area. There are also intermediate plans to repair the houses. But the housing officer wrote:
"In the light of the proposals cutbacks in local authority spending this scheme will have to be put back even further."
That means that these families will have to look forward to yet more years of
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living in ruins which look as if they have been shelled. I advise the Prime Minister, whatever his delusions about the contents of the White Paper, to recognise that his views are not shared in Birmingham. In Birmingham they know about real cuts. They are painfully aware of them. I represent that city.
Mr. Norman Tebbit: Part of it.
Mr. Litterick: You may have noticed, Mr. Speaker, that the Labour Party dominates Birmingham.
We were presented with a White Paper. As I have always understood the theory, a White Paper is a subject for discussion and debate. The implication is that the proposals contained in a White Paper can be changed. But that is not the spirit in which the Prime Minister presented it today, or in which the Whips presented it last night. Their attitude is "It may well be a free country and this might be a democratically elected Chamber in which free speech is permitted, but you will submit." The Prime Minister says "You must accept our view." It is the view of an oligarchy. It is the view of those who control the governmental system. They expect automatically to control us.
The very first time we fire what is no more than a warning shot across their bows—many people outside the House feel that the Government have gone too far in the wrong direction—we are accused of entering into unholy alliances. I recollect in the recent past a number of unholy alliances between the entire membership of the Conservative Party and a minority of the Labour Party. I do not recollect anyone then being accused by the leader of the Labour Party of entering into unholy alliances. The will of the Labour Party was totally nullified by that sort of unholy alliance.
In the life of this Parliament certain Labour Members have voted without hesitation with the Opposition, or abstained in the face of three-line Whips. Nothing has been said about that. What then of unholy alliances? It seems that the Prime Minister is rather partial in his ability to observe an unholy alliance. My hon. Friends have no doubt who was damaged by the alliances to which I

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have referred—namely, my constituents and the British working people.
The people of Birmingham will not be unmindful that in spite of the rhetorical differences between the two Front Benches, there is agreement between them on many fundamental issues. For months the Government Front Bench has been saying that it is making defence expenditure cuts. No such cuts have emerged. The White Paper demonstrated that clearly. I remind the Prime Minister that if he advances the argument that certain figures in the White Paper show an increase in public expenditure, he cannot at the same time argue that defence expenditure is being cut. The White Paper shows quite clearly that defence expenditure is being increased and will be increased into the foreseeable future—in fact, to the end of the decade.
The Government Front Bench has been fraudulent in its advertisement of its own defence policy. It has been telling people that it has been cutting defence expenditure. It has been deliberately mobilising the opinion of foreign generals and foreign defence ministers to support that claim. In fact, it is not true. The White Paper shows that it is not true. There is a simple word for that sort of behaviour but I understand, Mr. Speaker, that it is not permitted in the House—[HON. MEMBERS: "Socialism?"] I did not have that word in mind. It is certainly culpable behaviour.
During the two-day debate it was shown that the central weakness of the Government's economic strategy is its failure to adopt a positive and aggressive industrial strategy. We could not help but notice that while the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) was making his contribution to the bicentennial celebration of Adam Smith, the Government Front Bench was not disagreeing with him. The Government Front Bench is proposing to make certain funds available to the private sector through tax concessions which it hopes it will invest in industry. That is what was hoped by the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath) when he was in Government. The right hon. Gentleman tried the same thing and it did not work.
At the same time the National Enterprise Board has been gutted of the strength it should have had, the strength it was intended to have if the Labour
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Party had had its way. I distinguish between the Labour Party and the Government Front Bench. It is now necessary to make that distinction. That is what last night's vote was all about.
The NEB is now a broken reed. As my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton demonstrated, the funds available for the activities in which it is allowed to participate are totally inadequate. It is deprived of the power to intervene to compel the co-operation of the private sector, and, more important, it is deprived of the funds which would be the means of enabling it to do that. This will not bring about the regeneration of British industry.
Like Mr. Micawber, the Chancellor is living in hope. He talks about the upturn. Mr. Micawber talked about an upturn, though he called it something else. The Chancellor does not know when this upturn is going to happen or even whether it is going to happen. Nor does anyone else with faith in capitalism. It is a pathetic posture for a Cabinet Minister who would have us believe that he is a Socialist.
The Secretary of State for Employment cranks up his agony machine every week-end and goes around the country telling people that he deplores the level of unemployment and that it is unacceptable. But he leaves people feeling bewildered, because, like the Chancellor, he assures them that unemployment will go on rising. We on this side have to draw the line somewhere and indicate that there is a level of disaster which we will not accept as an act of God and beyond which we feel compelled to act on behalf of the people.
We are not slaves to a mindless economic system like devotees of some eighteenth century doctrine of economics. We believe that men acting in concert can change their economic destiny. That is what I believe Socialism to be about. Men can will changes in their economic destiny. A commitment to capitalism means lying back and letting things happen. That is nihilism and it consigns the most defenceless people in society to disaster.
Mr. Frank Hooley: I have a good deal of sympathy with some of my hon. Friend's arguments, but how are we to control the price of oil,

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copper, tin, rubber, jute, wool, cotton and the other industrial materials we have to import? It is totally beyond the capacity of this country to exercise control over those commodities.
Mr. Litterick: The one-word reply to my hon. Friend is "planning". We plan our needs for these things and insulate the British people internally from the consequences of these outside changes. We should plan our trade with other nations and not leave it to accidents of commodity price movements or speculative movements in currency values. We, more than all the nations of the Western world, are the inheritors of democracy and we have an obligation to advance the thesis that democracy and Socialism are inseparable. If hon. Members have no faith in the ability of men collectively to plan their own destiny, they have no place in politics.
It is to be deplored that the Government Front Bench consistently play what I call their loyalty card, saying that people, particularly those connected with the Labour movement, have a duty to be loyal. People are exhorted to be loyal to good old Denis, good old Michael and all the other people who, as my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) has said, have made a legendary contribution to the Labour movement. I do not believe in legends or in loyalty in this individualistic way. I believe in loyalty to principles, and it is to this kind of loyalty that we on this side appeal.
We ask the British people to be loyal to certain principles of collective action and not to individuals who ruthlessly and without principle trade on their reputations and their past. We say to the British people that we represent Socialism and urge them to consider that Socialism is the answer to this crisis and not the expedients of desperate individuals.
5.35 p.m.
Mr. Gwynfor Evans: However much the proposed cuts in public expenditure affect areas like the Midlands or the region in which this imperial Parliament is situated, it is undeniable that they will affect Wales far more. The standards of material living in Wales are already much lower and our economy and
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social life have been weakened by the kind of Governments we have had for generations.
One massive fact stands out to illustrate our situation—unemployment. Although we have suffered so much depopulation and emigration—we lost 500,000 people between the two wars—we still have the highest unemployment rate of any region or country in these islands. In that kind of society, the proposed cuts are almost immoral. We have only 4·9 per cent. of the population of Great Britain, but in that small number there are 76,000 people out of work and the employment activity rate in Wales is about 20 per cent. behind the level in England. The wealth per head of the Welsh people averages less than three-quarters that of the English.
Our language and culture, to which we attach so much importance, although the Government and this House do not often agree with us, are being depressed terribly by the economic situation and the Government's failure to establish cultural institutions to assist us. For instance, we have long been promised our own television channel, but this has been affected by the cuts. Nothing does more harm to the Welsh language than the hours of English television which are poured into Welsh homes every day. We must have our own channel, but this is one of the casualties of the cuts. The annual cost of running a Welsh TV channel would be the same as the cost of two multi-rôle combat aircraft. The Government can afford these aircraft, but not an institution which could save the Welsh language and culture.
We think the Government's priorities are wrong. We are the last people who should be bearing the brunt of what is now proposed. Our education is being badly hit and our schools are already much older, on average, than schools in England. Capital expenditure is being reduced from £19 million to £6 million. Our roads are also being affected and the transport system is an essential part of our infrastructure and we already have so much leeway to make up in comparison with England. Local government expenditure on roads is being reduced from £16 million to £9 million.
The reduction in the number of rural bus services will almost paralyse movement for many elderly people in rural

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areas and will hasten still further our depopulation. The same is true of the standstill in social services. It may be possible to maintain the standards of services elsewhere, but they will undoubtedly be depressed in Wales because of the cuts.
We also find that the Welsh Development Agency, which promises some hope of balanced development, will now have available only £130 million instead of the £500 million demanded by the Welsh TUC. Wales needs a housing programme of 25,000 new houses a year. The most we have achieved in the last decade is 16,000 houses. Now we are to have a drop from £205 million to £136 million in the housing programme.
If 25,000 houses a year were built in Wales, that would mean nine houses per thousand of the population. Let us compare that figure with the figures achieved in other small countries in Western Europe. In Finland it is 15·4 per thousand; Switzerland, 11·8; Holland, 10·9; Iceland, 10·5; Sweden, 10·5; Norway, 9·8; and Denmark, 9·6. If we had only nine per thousand, we would have 25,000 houses a year. We have never had more than 16,000, and now that number is likely to be halved.
The cut in the housing programme is immoral, and that is why we challenge it. No Welsh Government would be guilty of a proposition of that kind. Wales is a very rich country, although it is so small. If we had a Welsh Government, the levels achieved would be equal to those achieved in the Scandinavian countries.
Although the Government's policy will do so much economic and social damage in my country, I hope that it will do a lot of good politically by driving Welsh people to see that they must take control of their lives into their own hands. We need more power for the people of Wales.
I hope that the Government will take seriously the vote last night and will resign so that we have a General Election. The Welsh people will see that what is needed is to return more Members of Parliament who will stand independently in the name of Plaid Cymru to fight for their country. That is the one way to get things done for Wales.
5.42 p.m.
Mr. Giles Radice: With great respect to the hon. Member for Carmarthen (Mr. Evans), the debate is about more than Wales. It is about the Government's economic strategy and policies, policies on which everything else for which the Labour Party stands must depend and I would remind hon. Members of a strategy which was defeated in the Lobby last night.
During 1974 and the early part of 1975, I had doubts about my Government's economic policies, but, since the introduction of the £6 wage policy last July, the Government, with the support of the trade union movement, have had a credible economic policy which they have pursued with consistency, determination and vigour. In the past two or three months there have been strong signs that these policies are beginning to pay off. The rate of inflation has come down considerably—it must, of course, come down much further. The volume of exports rose sharply in the last quarter of 1974 and our share of world trade, including manufacturing, has risen against all the trends.
The impact of the improvement in our trading position and the volume of exports, combined with an increase of stocks, has meant increased industrial activity. Although there is still a substantial level of unemployment—far too high—the number of vacancies is beginning to rise for the first time.
It is becoming increasingly clear that we shall go into the upturn in world trade with a unique combination of great unused capacity and a currency which is considerably undervalued. I do not say at some stage in this upturn we shall not have to introduce import controls or stimulate home consumption. I am arguing that the Government, perhaps for the first time since the war, have a unique opportunity to obtain what every Government have wanted—export-led growth.
It is against that background that we should judge the White Paper. The case for the White Paper is that in a period of almost no growth there has been a rapid increase in public spending, perhaps more rapid than at any time since the war. At a time of high unemployment it would be madness to rein back public expenditure, as we are asked to do by the Conservatives, and it would be madness to

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increase taxes. But, inevitably, the policies we have pursued in public expenditure mean a high level of borrowing and a high burden of debt interest; and any Government would have to do something about that problem.
If we are to come out of the recession with export-led growth, there has to be some restraint on domestic consumption, and that has implications for taxation and public expenditure. As my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Mr. Marquand) said on Tuesday, is it likely that consumption will be restrained if there are massive increases in taxation in the years ahead? It is here that I find the arguments of some of my hon. Friends less than convincing.
I am sure that they are aware of the impact of increased taxation in the late 1960s on the rate of inflation. All the studies have shown that. Is it likely that we shall be able to maintain the competitiveness of our exports and the growth we all want if our incomes policy is undermined by massive increases in taxation?
The inescapable conclusion is that there must be some reining back in public expenditure increases. We can argue legitimately about how much and about distribution. But it is not legitimate to argue that there should be no reining back. I believe that I am just as good a Socialist as those who abstained last night, but I do not believe in soft options. Every hon. Member knows that there are no soft options left for this country. If hon. Members do not know that, the British people do. It was no part of our manifesto at the last election to claim that there was any easy way out, or that we could escape having to make hard choices.
And if the growth assumptions on which the White Paper is based are challenged as being over-optimistic—as some of my hon. Friends have argued—it will not do to argue that Government spending should be increased. The logical conclusion of my hon. Friends' argument is plain: there should be a reining back, not an increase.
I believe that the Government have the support of the vast majority of Labour Members for their economic policies. They have the support of the trade union movement, of Labour supporters
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in the country and of the people. They will continue to retain that support if they keep their nerve. I hope that hon. Members will support the Government in the Lobby tonight.
5.50 p.m.
Mr. Maurice Macmillan: The whole House will wish to congratulate the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Radice). He made a splendid speech in defence of his Government's policies. That is more than can be said of the speech of the Prime Minister, who tried to get out of the position by saying that the Tory amendment was defeated. So it was, but that has nothing to do with what happened to the Government last night.
The Primet Minister tried to pretend that an unholy alliance had led Members of the Conservative, Liberal and Ulster Unionist parties into the same Lobby, and led some hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway to abstain. That is not an unholy alliance: that is parliamentary democracy at work. The Government of the day can continue only as long as they retain the ability to get their measures through by a majority in this House. It does not matter how that majority is arrived at.
I fear that something may be happening today that is perhaps more serious for the future than many of us yet realise. I suspect that there is indeed an unholy alliance—to maintain the present Government in power, or at least in office, when they no longer have the full confidence in their major economic strategy of those who purport to support them. If I am right—and if the thinness of the House in debate on this great occasion shows that already it is known on the Benches opposite that those who so bravely abstained last night will troop obediently into the Lobby tonight—then, indeed, there is an unholy alliance, then, indeed, there is a blow to parliamentary democracy.
The hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Mr. Litterick) made the position very clear. He pointed out with great frankness and clarity, as did other hon. Gentlemen, the major differences between the sorts of policies put forward by the Government, apparently with the support of some hon. Gentlemen sitting immediately behind me and the sorts of policies the hon. Gentleman would like

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to see. He made it very clear that those policies are not compatible. If they are patched up in the short term, it will be solely for the shabby reason of maintaining the Government in office at all costs.
The hon. Member for Selly Oak, holding the views he expressed this afternoon, could with honour do nothing except resign the Whip. The Prime Minister, faced as he is with the permanent division—and he knows it is permanent—in his own party, can himself with honour to do nothing except resign.
It was suggested—I think by the hon. Member for Selly Oak—that the country wanted Socialism and his brand of Socialism. If that is the view of the Labour Government, let them try it. Let them seek a dissolution and a General Election. That is their duty to this House, to their constituents, and to the country.
5.54 p.m.
Mr. John Roper: I regret that we are debating this matter tonight on the Adjournment, in spite of the parallel quoted by the right hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery). I believe that it would have been preferable to have a debate on a clear motion reasserting the Government's economic and financial policies, including its medium-term economic strategy incorporated in the White Paper. But I realise that, in the present uncertain state of the economy, it is necessary that there should be a clear decision tonight.
That is why I am glad that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made it clear that what we shall be doing tonight is endorsing the Government's economic and financial policies. That is what we shall be voting upon tonight, not making a relative choice between the two Front Benches in this House.
There is perhaps another difference between tonight's debate and last night's debate. Last night we could get involved in the minutiae of Treasury predictions five years ahead—the exact arithmetic of which is, of course, open to dispute. Tonight we are considering the Government's medium-term economic strategy—the strategy which is the essence of the White Paper. Indeed, the function of the White Paper this year, as every year, is to act as a crystallisation of the Government's thinking in the whole range of policy fields for the period ahead.
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That policy was right yesterday and the vast majority on these Benches voted for it then. It is equally right tonight, and the vote at the end of the debate tonight is to make that clear beyond peradventure.
It is totally misleading to suggest that the Government's position is opposed to public expenditure, or even to a growth of public expenditure. The Government are quite rightly against allowing the economy to become so unbalanced that the chance of a healthy growth of output—which is the essential prerequisite of any long-term increase in either public or private consumption—is put at risk or impeded.
The argument of my right hon. Friends in the last three days on that matter is clear, and must not be confused. While over the coming 12 months the economy will still be in the trough of the recession, it is right that public expenditure should be allowed, as it will be, to continue to expand, to prevent any further deflation. When the economy picks up, in 1977, 1978 and 1979, the additional resources which become available must not be pre-empted by further growth in public expenditure, however worthy the objectives. They must be used, first, for the growth of exports, to allow our balance of payments to get back into equilibrium, enabling us to buy the essential raw materials from abroad. Secondly, they must be used to allow for that increase in investment in manufacturing industry without which we have no chance of long-term growth or any long-term growth in public expenditure.
We can quibble about the details, but I do not see how that broad strategy can be disputed. These are surely the essential building blocks, irrespective of our views on other matters, for the healthy economy on which any chance of the long-term growth of output—and therefore of the resources needed for our objectives of social spending—must be based.
This particular part of the argument is not necessarily a Socialist position. It is not a Tory position either. It is not a bankers' position. It is surely the logic of economic arithmetic, and this is the arithmetic from which the Government's position inevitably starts. It is where any policy would have to start.
The Government strategy is spelt out in detail in the White Paper, in the light

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of the current economic statistics, but, quite clearly, the whole history of Government economic management since the War shows that no White Paper is sacrosanct. Things can change over the five-year period of this White Paper. The Government, of course, like any other Government, will make the appropriate changes. The detail will inevitably change over the three-year period, but if we are to have any chance of achieving our objectives, we must be clear that the broad lines of strategy are right in the present situation.
Of course it is true that politics is about something more than economic arithmetic. That is why the Government's decisions about the programmes for which we all care deeply were painful for them to take and painful for us to accept. But the central problem must be seen. We must get an increasing rate of economic growth in order to get the funds we need to carry out our programmes of social expenditure.
One may ask whether this strategy will succeed and give us the resources, at the end of the period in 1980, to carry out our social objectives. No one can tell. But I believe that there would have been considerably greater risk—indeed, there would almost certainly have been much more serious problems—if the Government had continued the plans in last year's White Paper. That would have created a very serious crisis for our economy in the short term and the medium term. The Government's financial and economic strategy is right tonight, as it was last night. The difference is that it will be endorsed tonight by the vote at 10 o'clock.
6.2 p.m.
Mr. Cranley Onslow: I hope that the hon. Member for Farnworth (Mr. Roper) will forgive me if I say no more about his speech than that he is totally mistaken about the Tightness of the Government's economic strategy on any night.
I want to hark back to the speech by the right hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe). It is unfortunate that he is not with us any more, because I do not wish to take advantage of his absence. It can give none of us any pleasure to see any man hounded as he
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has been. Personally, we must all regret that.
But I think that politically we should also regret the way in which the publicity which has surrounded him has distracted the country from the essential irrelevance of the Liberal Party. In his speech today he reminded us of the irrelevance of the alternative he claimed to advance. I detected with regret that his only approach and advice to his followers was that they should nail their colours to the fence.
Until I heard the Prime Minister today, I would have been inclined to suggest to the House that his absence from the Chamber last night, which caused so much remark, must have been caused by a lack of courtesy or a lack of courage. Having heard him, I regret having come to that conclusion, because it was crystal clear today to every hon. Member who heard him that the reason for his absence must have been that he could muster no confidence in himself either last night nor yet this afternoon.
The Prime Minister made a speech uncharacteristic in one respect at least-it lasted only 25 minutes. For 21 of those minutes he abused his opponents. For four of those minutes he sought to justify the Government's economic policy. If I can take his scale of value inversely, I will deal briefly with the criticism and abuse that he sought to heap on his opponents.
To us on this side of the House the Prime Minister's main argument appeared to be that because, he alleged, we were committed to fantastic Government expenditure on Maplin, the Channel Tunnel, defence, and so on, our arguments deserved no hearing. I was reminded of a technique which used to be known as the "big lie". You would rule me out of order, Mr. Speaker, if I were to suggest that he was the last of the big liars. But I must say that there are times when he must make Dr. Goebbels turn in his grave.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not casting any personal reflection on the Prime Minister. As he knows, that would be unparliamentary.
Mr. Onslow: I am not casting such an aspersion, Mr. Speaker, I am merely deploring a technique which we all find

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deplorable and about which I intend to say no more.
As far as the Prime Minister's friends are concerned, he was not in the least in the fastidious mood that he claimed to be in. He accused them of promiscuity in the political sense. He accused them of reviving the "arsenic and old lace" unholy alliance. He described some of them roundly as Marxists. I suppose that fastidiousness prevented him from going so far as to suggest that many of them might be Trotskyites. The impression he gave to many of us was that of a man who felt that he was not likely to win their support by soft words or any other.
Those upon whom I suppose the Prime Minister hopes that he can rely were also present for his speech. I counted 35 departmental Ministers sitting on the Back Benches—unusual enough in itself, but remarkable in the absence of noise they made. If the payroll has its advantages on these occasions, it must be to form some kind of compact to applaud points with which those on the payroll agree when made by the man who leads them.
But there were no great valedictory cheers from them today. They will vote for him tonight, but they will not be very enthusiastic about it. They know that the Government's counter-inflation and economic strategy has been exposed as a bluff and a failure and—still worse—as a recipe for disaster for the country.
Those of us who look back over the past two years know that they have been marked by a massive fall in the value of money and of people's savings and earnings, by industrial disruption, caused, as often as not, by deliberate Government policy, with the threat of nationalisation hanging over the aviation industry and creating a total decision-vacuum in the minds of management and customers alike, and by the depression, of the motor industry, including the buying of jobs for reasons which have never been satisfactorily explained to us. There is the homelessness, the joblessness, the growing queues for hospital beds, the running-down of the social services for which the Labour Party was once so proud to claim every ounce of credit.
I do not believe that departmental Ministers tonight will go into the Lobby with high hearts and proud consciences to vote for the policies which their leadership
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has led them into. I do not believe that there are many amongst them who believe the wildly optimistic projections of gross national product upon which the Government's future plans appear to rest. Those projections were effectively and totally exploded in the debate on public expenditure—most effectively of all in the winding-up speech by my hon. Friend the Member for St. Ives (Mr. Nott).
When the country comes to judge this debate, its judgment may not necessarily depend on the figures in the respective Lobbies. Its judgment may well depend on its own experience of vindictive fiscal policies, social policies, the runaway wage inflation—all of the things which people are learning that Socialism means and all the mistakes which they can see to be the direct result of Socialist policies under the leadership of this Prime Minister. Some of them could judge those who vote tonight by the standard of loyalty to principle—a standard which will not be apparent among many hon. Members opposite tonight. I wonder how those who voted, or did not vote, will measure up to that test.
For most of us the importance of this occasion is that it marks the end of the Labour Party. It is the end of that party as well as the end of the distribution of goodies by the Government. Whatever happens, the Labour Party can never be the same again. Whatever happens, the divisions and distrust within it, the mutual dislike which is growing up within it, must become more obvious day by day to its members and to the country. Whatever is the result of the Division this evening, this is a party, a Government, in which the country will never again have confidence.
6.11 p.m.
Mr. Joe Ashton: I was one of the 37 or 39 Labour Members who abstained last night. I understand that there is a rumour spreading round the House that after the vote tonight I am to be sacked as Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Secretary of State for Energy. I welcome this chance to explain why I did not support the Government last night. I do not think that anyone on the Labour side who stayed out of the Lobby last night did so with a feeling of joy. Many of us did not make up our minds to do so until 10

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minutes to 10 o'clock, and after most serious consideration. We did it not just on the strength of the two-day debate but as a result of our experience going back to 1968–69, when we saw the previous Labour Government carrying out policies that could be described as Tory policies. We supported things like Vietnam and the pay freeze, which ultimately lost us the election in 1970.
There came a time when many of us felt that we could again be heading in the same direction unless we made a stand. I might have been politically naive and innocent when I came to this House seven years ago. My background is similar to that of many in the Labour Party. We come from trade unions and local councils. We came here through democratic organisations. Before the governing body in those organisations arrives at a decision there is argument. That argument can be rough. We would fight it out among ourselves and then we would stick to the policy decided upon.
I found, much to my regret, that Parliament does not work that way. All too often Back Benchers on both sides of the House are asked to be sheep and to go through the Lobby like so much fodder, just because their leaders—the Conservatives are just the same—have agreed on a certain policy, or on a U-turn. They have decided that something is blue when it is red, or vice versa. I do not think that this does Parliament any good. It does Parliament no good when people stand up at Blackpool in October and say one thing but come back here and do another.
The public have great respect for politicians, either on the extreme Left or Right, who stand by what they believe in, whether it costs them a job or their career prospects. This Parliament is enhanced by Members with the guts to stand up for what they believe in. I do not regret abstaining last night. I am sure that I shall not regret it in two years' time. Then it will have been proved just who was right and who was wrong.
What happened when this grand strategy was announced? A White Paper was produced. Before that, we had a long series of nods and winks, looks and innuendoes saying that "Denis wants £500 million off defence" and "Roy has
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managed to cut it down to £125 million". Carefully the scenario is presented—"Barbara has put up a great fight for this" and "Denis is doing the other". The whole thing is orchestrated. It is dressed up. It is just the same with the Tories. The last Tory Prime Minister used to announce policy from Lancaster House when the House of Commons was in recess. He said that the wage increase would be £1 plus 4 per cent. All Tory Members were expected to follow their right hon. Friends into the Lobby, like sheep.
This is what is happening today with the Cabinet. The Cabinet thinks that it can operate on the basis of caucus rule and that the rest of us will always be there to rubber stamp things. It does Cabinets good to know that there are men of principle who will not be led by the nose. However much Cabinets may stage-manage the occasion, whether at Blackpool or Downing Street, and however much they may present things in a favourable light, Back Benchers have the right to be heard, and to stand up and be counted.
What happened after we were presented with the White Paper? We had a party meeting, which lasted two hours. The Prime Minister came for the first 10 minutes to listen to us. I took careful note. The Chancellor stayed for the two hours and replied to the meeting in 15 minutes. Many who wanted to speak were not able to do so. That was supposed to be democratic consultation with the Back Benchers in this party.
Mr. Dennis Skinner: After the event.
Mr. Ashton: After the event. This is not prior consultation. This is not the sort of discussion that is held in Labour groups or in trade unions. The branch, the group or the council, comes to a decision and sticks by that policy.
What has happened over the past two years? There was the Common Market issue. The majority of the members of the Parliamentary Labour Party were against the Common Market. Conference was against the Common Market. So was the TUC. But blithely the leaders of the party went on to the hustings and campaigned for it.
Mr. Alan Lee Williams: Tell us about the people.
Mr. Ashton: The people had the referendum, but we are talking about party policy. In that case party policy was blithely ignored. What about the party policy on import controls? I had to go to my constituency last Thursday because a factory was closing down as a result of unfair competition from cheap imported shoes. The shoes made by the workers in my constituency could not be sold because of the cheap shoes flooding into the country from Taiwan, Korea and beyond the Iron Curtain. What am I supposed to do—tell the people in my constituency that I am sorry, but I must go like a sheep through the Lobby, because there is a three-line Whip on import controls? Or do I stand up here like a man and speak against the Government's policy? That is what I was sent here for. Unemployment is growing in our constituencies. Are we supposed to stand here like meek little mice and never express an opinion, except, perhaps, in Committee?
Mr. Alan Lee Williams: What are you going to do tonight?
Mr. Ashton: I shall make my own speech. I shall come to that point in a moment. Unless we are careful we shall be treading down the Tory path. We are getting to a situation in which we shall be a popular Government with the Press and the Tories. We are carrying out Conservative policies. Make no mistake, if it had not been for the by-election the Conservatives would not have come off the fence and forced us into the position they did last night. They are finally realising that we have a Tory Labour Government. The Press is happy with what has been done about unemployment and expenditure cuts. We are having to carry the can, and will regret it in two or three years' time.
The vote last night was not just about expenditure cuts; it was about future policy and the way we are going. It was about what will happen in the Budget, and what will happen to the pay policy in August. If the Government had received a unanimous vote from us last night they would have thought that they could carry out any policy they liked, no matter how Right Wing or Conservative
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it was, because there would be no protest from the Back Benchers.
I want to say how I shall vote tonight. Our vote last night was not meant to smash the Labour Government; it was a shot across the bows, to show that we were dissatisfied with the direction in which we were heading. It was to show that we felt that we were heading in a Conservative direction rather than in the direction of our manifesto. We should have been moving in the direction of our party conference. We believe that we were not elected to preside over growing unemployment and its use as an economic weapon. We were not elected blithely to accept Common Market policy or to allow cheap imports to flood the country. We believe that we were heading in the wrong direction. There comes a time when, although we do not want to bring the Government down——
Mr. Onslow: Why not?
Mr. Ashton: Because the Government have done some fine things. We who abstained agree wholeheartedly with the Government's housing policies, rent policies, their trade union protection legislation, and their nationalisation of the shipbuilding and aircraft industry. We agree with perhaps 80 per cent. of the Government's policy and we do not want to bring them down to return to the policies of 1970–74. That does not mean that we shall sit back and behave like sheep. That does not mean that we have no right to express an opinion. We shall not accept everything.
That does not mean that I, as a humble PPS who is going to be sacked tonight, after the vote, is going to sit back and blindly accept it. I do not regret it. But some of my hon. Friends, if they were honest, may wish that they had abstained. In two or three years from now they will regret that they did not stand up at the right time and try to change Government policy when they had the chance.
Tonight I shall vote for the Government because their policies on shipbuilding, the aircraft industry and the trade unions are the policies for which we have campaigned for a long time. The policies on public expenditure are not.
Mr. Mike Thomas: My hon. Friend must have heard the Prime Minister say,

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in terms, that the vote is one of confidence in support of the Government's financial and economic policies.
Mr. Ashton: I have been in the House longer than my hon. Friend, who is a bit of a rash character at times. Unfortunately, he often believes what the Whips tell him. When the Whips said yesterday that there would be no vote of confidence if the vote was lost last night, some of us realised that the pressures were being exerted. But there is a vote of confidence after all. The rules and procedures of the House meant that pressures were being exerted in devious ways. Votes have to be registered, whether on the Adjournment or on some other matter, irrespective of what is on the Order Paper, but the Government know why these votes are being cast.
I hope that the Government have learned sense and that the vote last night will influence them in the Budget and in future negotiations with the TUC. I hope that they will accept that they cannot have it all their own way and override Members of the party and the contents of the manifesto.
6.22 p.m.
Mr. Cecil Parkinson: We always enjoy speeches by the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton). He has a reputation for speaking his mind, for being fearless and for doing what he believes to be right. I am not saying that as an Opposition Whip who was glad to see him in his seat last night. I listened to him with a great deal of interest today. But I cannot understand why, at the end of his speech, he turned a somersault and said he was going to vote with the Government tonight. The vote will be on the policies about which he and his hon. Friends expressed their disapproval last night. There has been no change since then.
Far from apologising in any way for the policies that were on trial yesterday, the Prime Minister boasted about them. He talked about his hon. Friends in a way which was quite scandalous. I thought Big Bossism had died in Britain. I cannot imagine any industrialist or manager daring to talk to his staff and fellow workers in the way in which the Prime Minister talked to his hon. Friends today.
Mr. Ronald Bell: Perhaps my hon. Friend is confusing the relationships between employer and employee with people whom the Prime Minister once described as having dog licences.
Mr. Parkinson: When the Prime Minister talked of dog licences we thought the remark was a temporary aberration but it is obviously the way he feels about his Back Benchers. When the paid vote sat here yelping every time the Prime Minister looked up with his PPS orchestrating the barking, one began to believe that the Prime Minister was right and that what he resents is that there are 30 people in his party, not who are lap dogs but who are not. The Prime Minister was angry with them for not being lap dogs and he could not forgive them for that.
Today I went to the Library and asked for five simple statistics about the Government to get some measure of the Government's performance since it came to power, because tonight we shall vote about our confidence in the Government. The statistics show that when we left Office in February 1975 the pound stood at $2·27, yesterday it was $1·91, and today, as a result of the expenditure of millions of pounds of our inadequate reserves, it crept back to $1·93. In February 1975 the rate of inflation was 13·2 per cent. Now it is 23·4 per cent. Unemployment stood at 551,600, whereas the last available figure was 1,184,800. Taking the index of production in 1974, during the three-day working week, as 100, in December 1975 it was 96·9. That is an appalling record for any Government to have and it is certainly not a record of which any Government should go to the House or the country and ask for a vote of confidence. But the Prime Minister says he knows what the problems are and that the Government are tackling them. The twin problems that they are determined to deal with are those of inflation and of broadening the industrial base of the country. The Prime Minister has fully accepted the importance of the private sector, and that resources must be made available by cuts in Government spending so that the private sector can invest.
Can we take seriously the Government's declared aim of dealing with inflation and broadening the industrial base? What is their principal weapon? The weapon

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which the Prime Minister boasts about is the co-operation of the TUC. That is going to be the key, the way to control inflation, because the TUC is going to yield to a set of norms or agreed increases which will enable inflation to be controlled. But the Prime Minister has no grounds for making that claim as if it were a fact. The co-operation which he has received in the past from the TUC were first under the Social Contract and more recently under the pay policy. But the settlements demanded have been grossly inflationary—they have fuelled inflation.
As I sat listening to the Prime Minister today talking about the need for wage restraint, my mind went back to February 1974 and the miners' wage claim; to the huge wage claims which, as a Government we tried to resist. I received a letter last week from a constituent who had also written to the Secretary of State for Energy and who said that he had been a trade unionist for 35 years and a member of the Labour Party for 40 years. He wanted to know what had happened to this country. He said that it was now acknowledged by the Government that pensioners could not afford to keep warm this winter on their pensions. The Government accept this and tell pensioners not to pay their bills. They say that they accept that the pension is not enough to pay for needs such as heating. They say "We cannot help you with that, so just run into debt." My constituent—a pensioner—ended his letter:
"I have now come to the conclusion that the Government are only concerned to please the unions at all costs and to hell with the elderly."
He does not see the trade unions as his great shelter and shield any more. Another thing he said was:
"I hope you will fight for the pensioners, Mr. Parkinson".
We did, in two General Elections. In 1974 I did just that, because I fought those elections on the basis that if people were to get 40 per cent. wage increases that would push up the price of coal, heating and electricity—to such an extent that the elderly and the vulnerable would not be able to afford them; and these were the very people for whom we were fighting in February 1974.
We did not want to fight the miners. No Government in their right mind would wish to do so. But we knew then what
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the Government are now trying to tell their own Back Benchers and the Prime Minister's kennel master, his Parliamentary Private Secretary, who is sitting there barking. But I bet that in February 1974 he was telling all his electors that there was no limit to what the country could afford to pay the miners, and that we, the Conservatives, were just being bloody-minded in trying to resist their claim.
We were defending the elderly, because we knew what the Government now recognise, that inflation is Public Enemy No. 1 and that no group of the public is more threatened by it than are the elderly. The Government have no cause or ground for being optimistic that their co-operation with the trade union movement will help them reduce inflation. We heard that Mr. Murray said yesterday— "We have been to see the Chancellor and of course he cannot say anything to us, but it would not be unreasonable to say we have been given the impression that there could easily be modest reflation." I must warn the TUC, which makes no secret of it and is very open about what it wants, that if it gets its current "shopping list" inflation will rocket, and there is absolutely no ground for the Government's being optimistic about the fact that because they have TUC co-operation, on the TUC's terms, they have the answer to inflation."
The second objective of the Government is to broaden the industrial base. The Prime Minister spoke today of how he was going to do it. I made a note of the things that he listed as evidence of the Government's serious intentions. He said that we have the National Enterprise Board, the Scottish Development Agency, the Welsh Development Agency, the National Economic Development Council and all the little "Neddys"—and, he might have added, we have British industry flat on its back, totally lacking confidence in this Government and its policies. But because the Prime Minister can produce a battery of agencies he really feels that he has a battery of solutions to the country's problems.
The truth of the matter is that we all want to see the industrial base of this country broadened; but the very policies that the TUC has been demanding—all those things of which the hon. Member for Bassetlaw boasted as the part of the

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Government's policy of which he approves; their approach to subsidies, rent freezes, nationalisation and taxation; things on which he would like the Government to continue with their policies—are the very things that are undermining industrial confidence. It is no good creating a battery of agencies and carrying on with the policies which this Government have been following and then say that in 1978–79 they will release resources so that the private sector can invest.
It is the great confidence-destroying activities of this Government—very largely, I am sorry to say, at the behest of the TUC—and their attempt to achieve TUC compliance with their policies, that will prevent them from achieving their second objective, which is a broadening of the industrial base. It is no good piling tax upon tax so that the successful man, about whom the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn) always spoke so glowingly—the entrepreneur, the risk taker, the creator of jobs—is rewarded by a battery of at least six taxes, with a top rate of 98 per cent. on one tax alone. That is what will discourage industrial investment—the huge tax burden with which the successful industrialist or middle manager, or the successful workman, is faced.
Another thing that will destroy and is destroying industrial confidence is the absolute armoury of privileges which the Secretary of State for Employment is again handing over to the trade unions in his attempt to buy their co-operation—the huge legislative measures that have been pushed through by this Government and which, frankly, have achieved the very objective that the Government do not want, of making the employment of people an unattractive proposition. People are now very careful about creating anther job or taking on another person because the sheer volume of legislation which this Government has imposed on employers is a further disincentive to employment.
Mr. Litterick Mr. Litterick rose——
Mr. Parkinson: I had better not give way to the hon. Gentleman. He made a good speech, and a long one. I want to emulate the first but not the second aspect of his speech. Today we are to vote on a motion of confidence in this
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Government. I would suggest that on the statistics which I gave on their record they have no right, on their past record, to ask this House for that vote of confidence. I would suggest that on its declared policies for dealing with the two big problems which they have identified they have no grounds either for asking the House for its confidence.
In conclusion, I would further suggest to hon. Members on the Government side that those who abstained last night—those who sat on those Benches because they did not agree with the Government's strategy—will be voting tonight on exactly the same issue, and they will have the problem of squaring their consciences. Last night it was desirable and honourable—and the hon. Member for Basset-law thinks he proved his virility by doing it. If, tonight, they rush into the Lobby they will reveal last night's exercise as a sham and a charade, and they will be giving a vote of confidence to a Government who last night they declared did not deserve one.
6.36 p.m.
Mr. Mike Thomas: The contribution of hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition Benches illustrates a central tenet of our debate today—that the real argument once again is not really between those hon. Gentlemen and ourselves but within the Labour Party, within the Government side and within hon. Members on these Benches. I do not regard that as something of which to be ashamed, something on which we should feel vulnerable, because at least we are having a genuine debate about the welfare of this country and the policies being pursued. I am afraid that is not the description I can apply to the approach of the Leader of the Opposition this afternoon or of some of those who spoke after her on the Opposition Benches.
I rise because I am anxious that we should be clear what this debate is about and the degree to which the debate on and within this side of the House is a legitimate debate which we should be pursuing; because it seems to me that we have heard this afternoon two defences of the events of yesterday evening—one from my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) which was a tactical defence, the other from my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham,

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Selly Oak (Mr. Litterick)—who I am not sure is still in the Chamber—which one could call an intellectual defence.
I would say to my hon. Friends that I believe there is no tactical defence for the action that was engaged in in this House last night by some of them. We have heard the view of the Prime Minister on it, and I agree with him. I believe the central fact of the argument is that some of my hon. Friends are trying, in this matter and others, to have it both ways. They are trying, on the one hand, to say, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw said "We support 80 per cent. of the Government's policies but there are just some odd things about which we are a bit worried". On the other hand, they are trying to suggest that they disagree fundamentally—and this is their absolute right—with the central economic strategy of the Government, upon which the achievement of almost 100 per cent. of the Government's policies is based, let alone 80 per cent. [Interruption.] It may be that some of my hon. Friends feel that it is lack of achievement, and that that is the view of their Government that they wish to put to the country. It is not the view of their Government—and my Government—that I wish to put to the country, because I believe this Government have had achievements of a considerable kind and that they have now found themselves—partly by accident, I concede that, because I do not believe my right hon. Friends are endowed with God-like wisdom and so should be believed all the time—on the road to setting right the economy of this country; and if some of my hon. Friends do not know it, and if hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite do not know it, I believe the people know it.
The central difference between a tactical and an intellectual defence of an abstention is that I should find it hard to live with a tactical defence, because almost every point in it can be argued the other way.
How would my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw like it if whenever there were sections of Government policy with which I disagreed I decided to abstain? I think that he will concede that he is a fairly regular attender in this respect. Would he like it if 10 other groups in the Labour Party regularly
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behaved in that way? My hon. Friend said that the Government were elected on one policy and went on to carry out another. He is to resign or to be kicked out from his Parliamentary Private Secretaryship. Is that accusation true of the Secretary of State for Energy? If so, why is he still in the Cabinet? Is that accusation true of the Secretary of State for Employment? If so, why is he still in the Cabinet? I do not believe it to be true of either of my right hon. Friends.
My point is that one can make these arguments either way. That is why I believe a tactical defence is wrong. I do not respect it. I do not believe that it should be made on the Floor of the House. I should not make such a defence of my own actions, whether in support of or against the Government.
An intellectual defence, an intellectually respectable criticism or critique of the Government's economic policies, was in part made by my hon. Friend the Member for Selly Oak. Frankly, I have heard it made better by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer). The tragic thing is that the only intellectual defence of any substance which has been made in the last two days and, indeed, in the week before, was by my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, West (Mr. Sedgemore). He made an intellectual case against the Government's economic strategy. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Radice) that the intellectual criticism of the Government's economic strategy by my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, West falls, because, if his forebodings and criticisms of the Government's forecasts are true, the implication is not that we can spend and expand our programmes but that we must cut our programmes in a worse and more damaging way.
Mr. Brian Sedgemore: I agree with my hon. Friend that if my forebodings about the Government's targets for the shift of resources to the balance of payments and the growth of GDP are right, the logical conclusion would be further public expenditure cuts. Whether he agrees with my speech or not, if he listened carefully he would have heard me outline an alternative to achieve the growth rate that we need.
Mr. Thomas: I thought I paid my hon. Friend credit for that. I accept that he

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put forward an alternative. I pay credit to him for that. The logic of what he said was that taxation would have to increase. What he did not fit into the jigsaw and explain was how that would square with several other important aspects of the Government's economic policy, not least their wages policy. How would increases in direct and indirect taxation of a more substantial nature than the White Paper implies—it already implies an increase of between 2p and 6p in the pound in income tax—square with the survival of the Government's wages policy? I submit that it cannot be done. It is trying to square the circle. It cannot be done within what my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) on another occasion called the laws of arithmetic.
Mr. Neil Kinnock: Will my hon. Friend give way?
Mr. Thomas: No. I am moving to a separate part of my speech now.
Passing from the defence of abstention last night, whether tactical or intellectual, the thing I find most difficult to cope with and to stomach is the claim that the actions indulged in in some way reflected the views of the people—or, if not of the people, of the Labour movement. That is a dishonest claim. The actions taken last night may reflect the views of a section of the Labour movement. We can all claim to do that, at one time or another. But to claim that those actions reflected the views of the broad mass of the Labour and trade union movement is demonstrably not true. That must be said today in a straightforward and honest way.
Mr. Ashton: I am glad to hear my hon. Friend bring out the point that we do not represent the general view of the party. Would he agree to a special party conference, which we have advocated, to ascertain the views of the party?
Mr. Thomas: I am happy to rest on the decision that has been taken by the National Executive of the Labour Party not to hold one. I hope that my hon. Friend will allow me to beg leave to believe that the NEC is more representative of the views of the Labour movement than is any individual or group of individuals here.
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I turn now to the question who is supporting the Government's economic strategy. The idea that it was dreamed up by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister, with the occasional talk about it with Len Murray, and that nobody else was involved is a parody of the situation. The broad mass of the trade union movement has supported the Government's general economic strategy not only through the TUC but through its actions. There has not been a single significant break in the £6-a-week policy. Everyone is now talking not about whether there should be a policy after 1st August, but what kind of policy it should be. Hugh Scanlon, the President of the Amalgamated Engineering Union, said that he supported the Government's general economic strategy. The TUC and the Labour Party have said that they support the strategy. In the past I recall my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment, making a speech at Blackpool—I was in the hall and many of my hon. Friends were there as well—in which he said that the Labour Party supported the germination of the policy on which we have now embarked. Indeed, that conference supported the £6 limit. It was with great pleasure that I listened to the speech that was made by my right hon. Friend on that occasion.
I shall watch with interest the behaviour of my hon. Friends tonight. Let us get it on the record again, so that it is there. They are being asked to go into the Lobby to support a motion of confidence in the Government's financial and economic policies. I shall wholeheartedly respect any one of my hon. Friends who abstained last night who feels unable to support such a motion. That is a tenable position. What is not tenable is to have one's bite at the cherry, one's bark, or one's shot across the bows, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw put it, and then to run for cover when it comes to the crunch.
Mr. Richard Buchanan: My hon. Friend need not worry about that tonight.
Mr. Thomas: I am sure that my hon. Friend is right. That is what this debate is all about. I hope that I shall never put myself in a position to be accused of being prepared to damage my own party and Government when it did not

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matter, but that I felt so slightly about it that I ran away when it really did matter.
6.50 p.m.
Mr. Norman Tebbit: I have been listening to the speech by the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East (Mr. Thomas). It is unusual, charming, or even quaint to hear a Labour Back Bencher supporting the Prime Minister, and in such fulsome terms. I am not sure whether his speech was a tactical or an intellectual defence of the Prime Minister or whether he fell somewhere between the two stools, but let not the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Ashton) think that the seat he is about to vacate tonight will be left to grow cold. There are obvious candidates to look after the conscience of the Labour Party and ensure that the Secretary of State for Energy does not deviate from the true path of the manifesto. We have seen a fair guarantee of that tonight.
The hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr. Stewart) said that the rupee had been revalued in terms of sterling. The hon. Gentleman omitted to notice that it has been revalued twice this week against sterling. I would not rest my case that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition would make a better Prime Minister than the present incumbent solely on what has happened in India and what has happened here—of course that is a very interesting comparison—but a sinking pound and a rising rupee is a fair commentary on what is going on in the world these days.
We all know that today's debate is not really about economic policy—it is about the Government's ability to command a majority in the House and their right to continue governing. In my view, they have lost the support of the British people. There is only one way to find out whether that is so.
The hon. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Mr. Litterick) said that the Government had lost the support of the Labour Party and of the Parliamentary Labour Party at that. Last night, that was so but it seems that tonight the dogs will go back to the kennel, or whatever the "in" expression is, and, lo and behold, the hon. Member for Selly Oak will be proved wrong. The Members of the Parliamentary Labour Party will run
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along and support the Prime Minister despite what he has said about them.
I recollect a Labour Back Bencher, who is not present at the moment and whom I shall not name, saying to me some years ago. "The one thing I envy about the Conservative Party is that at least you conduct your quarrels decently". Certainly this particular quarrel has not been conducted very decently in view of what the Prime Minister was calling his Back Benchers today.
The Prime Minister is a curious man. He has been a specialist for some years in shovelling the blame for events which he does not like on to other people. I am sure that the next recipients of the blame for what goes wrong will be the 39 mavericks who did not vote last night. Whenever anything goes wrong—if sterling moves the wrong way, if the wind blows from the east instead of the west, or if there is a wet summer—they will be blamed, because so far the Prime Minister has never taken responsibility for anything that has gone wrong.
The right hon. Gentleman does not blame his Treasury Ministers for the fact that the economy has gone to hell. He does not blame his Treasury Ministers who have spoken in the debate during the past two days for the fact that their case was lost. He blames his Marxist Friends.
Whatever the motion says, the Prime Minister is on trial. We must consider above all his ability to govern at the head of an increasingly unstable coalition—a coalition which the Prime Minister himself today identified as one in which the troublesome element is the Marxist wing.
When deciding whether the Prime Minister is a fit man to govern, the House must consider what he said today about sterling. He said that it had been through a period of calm. He said that it had been steady for some months. How did he describe that little flutter which I see from the evening papers today led to the decline from last night's 33·8 per cent. devaluation to a worst ever of 34·2 per cent. average devaluatiion? The Evening Standard says:
"So in the past week, the pound has suffered a devaluation of about 6 per cent. against the dollar and of more than 13 per cent. against the 10 major currencies."

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How did the Prime Minister describe that today? He described it as a downward pressure on the exchange rates. A downward pressure implies that there was something pressing back. There was more than a downward pressure: there has been a downward movement clearly as great as the last formal devaluation over which the right hon. Gentleman presided. The only difference is that it has taken a week instead of a day. However, on that occasion it took only a week to get round to it, but this time it has happened rather more gradually.
Everyone in the House and throughout the country must become more and more worried about the Prime Minister's retreat from reality, a retreat which impelled him to hide last night instead of coming to the Dispatch Box. He is getting worse and worse. He retreats into imagination, plots and paranoia about South African business interests which think that the Liberal Party is so important that it is worth spending money on nobbling. Good gracious me! The next story will be that Lockheeds thought it worth while to bribe the Liberal Party! We could not get more ridiculous than that.
All this must raise doubts about his fitness for office. He labels my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and my right hon. Friends on the Front Bench as Marxists because we voted last night against him. But the Marxists sat in the Chamber and did not vote at all. He is becoming downright confused.
The Labour Party, of course, is now too split to govern, and it ought to go. If it does not go, if it hangs on, what will be the course of events over the next few months? The Budget is not far away and there will be a new series of delicate negotiations on it. Those negotiations will be based not so much on what is good for the economy as on how much the Marxist wing of the Labour Party will tolerate without biting back again. That is how the country will be run over the next few months if this Government stay in office. I can only say that if that is how it will be, I hope that the Social Democratic wing will gain a little courage and be willing to bite back if necessary, because if it does so, it might even find that we shall help it out.
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The Liberals suddenly seem not to want an election and the Leader of the Liberal Party, for the time being, came up with a new constitutional dream today. He does not want a coalition now but cosy chats to arrive at a mutually agreed policy. No responsibility for him and, worse still, no posts for his chums.
Mr. Kinnock: What chums?
Mr. Tebbit: He is an easy-going man, he must have a chum somewhere. ————I he hon. Member for the Isle of Ely (Mr. Freud) might have got a job if the Liberals had entered a coalition. He would make a very good Whip—with dog food for the dogs that get their licences renewed. He might even get them into the Lobby. But there was reasoning behind the suggestion by the Leader of the Liberal Party that this cosy chat on agreed policies, which did not involve taking office in a coalition, was a good idea.
The policy which he said had continued as a bipartisan or tripartisan policy in that way for some years was, believe it or not, the policy on Ulster. That is the right hon. Gentleman's idea of success. In the six years of bipartisan or tripartisan policy and cosy chats we have moved from the situation where there were mobs throwing stones on Sundays to the stage where the politicians in Ulster have to carry ·38 pistols in their pockets to protect themselves against threats of murder and where the bombings and murders of Londonderry have spread to London. That is the Liberal Party's idea of a successful policy.
We are not of course trying the Liberals tonight. We are trying the Prime Minister and Parliament itself, and the most worrying factor of all—and this is where there is common cause among many of us—is the way in which over these past years power has been drifting away from Parliament. That was the burden of a great deal of what the Tribune Group Members have said, and it is a perfectly reputable contention. I wish they had believed in that from 1970 to 1974 as well. But since they believe in it now, I will join with them in expressing my anxiety.
That is why this place is often deserted when major debates are in progress, and that is not the fault of this Government

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alone. There has been a drift to a corporate style of government more than once in the past, more than once a tendency to package up deals in private outside Parliament with other powerful bodies and then to bring them back here, expecting Parliament to rubber stamp them, or sometimes not even bringing them back here before they have been announced under the television arc lights at Lancaster House.
There is only one way in which we can get this matter right and by which we can bring the power back to this House. That is not to drift on with a Government split and divided, bargaining internally to try to keep its supporters in the same Lobby now and again. The way to do it is to go for a General Election now so that the people of this country can come to a clear decision on which way they want to go, whether they want to go on stumbling as they have for the past two years towards an Albanian economy and a South American currency, or to get back in the mainstream towards a prosperous economy, a free economy and free men in poltics. That way is the way back to a capitalist economy and to a free market economy.
So let us have the election now and let Labour Members vote with us tonight and bring down the Government. Then let them get to the hustings and make their policy and their pitch for power, and we will do the same.
7.4 p.m.
Mr. John P. Mackintosh: I agreed with a small part of the speech of the hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit), but I fear that if the Conservatives came back to power they would be running back to meetings at Chequers with the powerful groups outside as they did so frequently when they were in office. This tendency of Governments to make arrangements with groups outside is endemic, and we need a thorough reform of this House in order to get us, the Back Benchers representing the public, back into the discussion of these isues.
I accept this point, but we are not dealing with the reform of the House of Commons tonight; we are discussing the continuation of the Government and, as the Prime Minister emphasised so strongly—and, I think, rightly—the continuation of the Government on the
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economic policies which they have presented to this House. That is the issue upon which we will be voting tonight.
As someone from the Opposition pointed out, the last time a Prime Minister came to this House and appealed for its confidence on an Adjournment motion was in May 1940. We should face the fact that today the Prime Minister did not make an appeasing speech; he made an aggressive and strong speech, emphaising that in no way was this Government going to change the economic policy that it had put before the House and which was rejected by my hon. Friends below the Gangway last night. I hope they realise that if they vote for the Government tonight they are voting for the Government's continuance and the continuance of that policy. That is the key point at issue.
The Leader of the Opposition went in for some fireworks and arguments attacking the Labour Party. It is cheap and fruitless in this House—and I think some Conservatives agree with this—to argue about which of the parties is the more monolithic, which contains the wider divisions. There is nothing disgraceful in the fact that the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath) does not always agree with his former Front Bench colleagues, or that the Labour Party contains a wide spectrum of opinion. What matters is the governing of this country and the sustaining of a viable policy by the Government through this House. The position we have to face here is that there are divisions in this House. Had I been called last night I would have entered into the merits of the very genuine argument about the different economic strategies between my hon. Friends below the Gangway and the Government and those of us who do not necessarily support the Government's social priorities on cuts but accept the Government's overall strategy.
There is a vital difference here, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Mr. Marquand) said, between the argument that the precise cuts represent the right package and the much deeper argument that the whole strategy of maintaining a certain balance between public and private sectors should be continued. The strategies are wide apart, but on the social arguments I agree with many of my hon. Friends. This strategy difference

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was the cause of the defeat last night. There is no point in glossing it over. It is deep and genuine, but it is not dishonourable. Minister's speeches have shown that the Government have a coherent point of view. They are saying that we have a mixed economy, that we have got to the pitch where the public sector has grown to a certain level, and that over the next few years they want it to grow at only 1 per cent. per annum in a 5 per cent. growth period. So that they are saying in effect that the public sector must stand still and we are expecting the growth which the Government hope will take us out of this situation to come from the private sector.
This is a coherent strategy, and it fits in with what the Secretary of State for Industry said at Chequers, when he announced that in future the Government would back a viable, profitable industry. The whole approach is that the private sector must get the export-led growth to take this country out of this recession. That coherent strategy is in line with the White Paper. My hon. Friends below the Gangway make a different case.
Their case is, and it was admirably put by my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, West (Mr. Sedgemore) and many other of my hon. Friends that if we had a strong system of import controls and investment steered not through the private sector but through the public sector, through the National Enterprise Board which would have far stronger teeth, if we had a publicly-owned or directed economy of that kind, we would get the investment, growth and the progress we want.
There is a difference between the two strategies, but we still have much in common. While there is this difference what matters is that we accept the danger of the present economic situation of this country. There has been too little said about that in the debate. That is what I admired in the speech by the right hon. Member for Sidcup when he pointed out that we have been in depressions before but that we have never been as boxed in before by the currency, by the balance of payments, by a still high rate of inflation and by the endemic weakness of the economy as we are at the moment.
I take this very seriously for its effect on democracy. It is always said, and now
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I am beginning to believe it, that there will be difficulty in sustaining democracy in this country over the next few years if Government after Government, whether Right-wing, Left-wing or centre, disappoint the people who put them in power, if the Government say that they will do one thing but something else happens in practice.
The Scottish National Party does not get support because of the speeches its Members make in this House. It is not because of what they say, but because of the deep disappointment of the Scottish electorate with the performance of both major parties, and the fact that they have an opt-out which is not available to the English electorate.
We have a serious problem. A Government have to produce a coherent policy and to stick to it. The policy advocated by the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer is now reasonably coherent, although I disagree with aspects of its application. However, the Government must persist with it.
The great danger to the country and to the Government—what matters to me is the danger to the country—is that the Government, faced with the type of rebellion that they had last night, will pay, what used to be called in the history books, Danegeld to marauding bands of strong-arm men, whether they are outside in the economic sphere or show the courage that my hon. Friends below the Gangway showed last night in abstaining. I admire them in the sense that I have always wanted to maintain my position against Government. I would never criticise anyone for doing what he believed right. However, the fact is that my hon. Friends below the Gangway flexed their muscles. I do not blame them, but I shall blame the Government if the Government deviate from their strategy, to buy them off here or there.
For instance, it is utterly disgraceful for a Government to issue circulars to local authorities telling them to cut their expenditure to the bone, that "the party is over" and then, five minutes later, when Ministers are facing a conference of the Labour Party, to think "My God, a little Danegeld, and we will get over this"; so they issue another circular and provide £175 million for "job creation". They tell the same local authorities that that money is available but not for any

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of the important projects which they had to shelve in the cuts; the money must be used for something sillier and less necessary. That kind of Danegeld sickens people, leads to lack of coherence, and damages the credibility of Government.
I shall cite another example. No sooner had the Government agreed to a solid piece of industrial strategy at the Chequers meeting last November—that it would back viable industry but not losers—than out they came with £162 million in Danegeld for Chryslers. That sort of thing destroys a Government's credibility.
I would rather that the strategy of my hon. Friends below the Gangway was pursued and was coherently and strongly put before the people, than that the Government should start on a strategy and then lean over backwards to do a left wing thing here or there, and then make a genuflexion in the direction of the nationalists and the Tribune Group, so that the country has no coherent government at all.
This Government have a strategy. The country is in dire economic danger, so they should apply that strategy. Everyone knows that there is a minority group in the Labour Party that has a different strategy. We respect them for it. However, the Government must not be blown off course by them. I ask my hon. Friends below the Gangway to realise that if they vote tonight for the continuance of the Government, they must do so knowing that they vote for the maintenance of the existing strategy that the Government have put before the House.
7.13 p.m.
Mr. Nick Budgen: The sad duty of this House tonight is to intrude upon the private agony of the Labour Party. The hon. Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Mackintosh) directed his attention to the Government. The hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East (Mr. Thomas) directed his attention to his hon. Friends below the Gangway. I want to take up the logical and courageous argument put forward by the hon. member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne East. He asked what the Tribune Group will do tonight. That is the question that the whole nation will ask as it listens. [Hon. Members: "No."] Oh yes, it will. However, some people
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will believe that the Tribune Group is not only courageous but consistent. They will believe that having attacked the central philosophy of the Government's economic policy, the Tribune Group will follow that up by abstaining tonight. There is a consistent course which the Tribune Group could follow. It could abstain tonight and say frankly and sincerely that it is totally different from the Social Democrats in the rest of the Labour Party. The time has now come when the only honourable thing that the Tribune Group can do is to recognise that it is a different party, to abstain, and to do that which in every other sphere it has always advocated, namely, to appeal to democracy. It should allow the people of this country to vote on its distinctive philosophy.
It is clear that it is no good papering over the differences. It is here that I fundamentally disagree with the hon. Member for Berwick and East Lothian. There is no difference in tactics or strategy between the Social Democrats and the Tribune Group. The Tribune Group has a totally different vision of society. It does not want a society in which the Government of the day rules in order to serve the interests of the whole nation. It wants the Government of the day to serve the interests of only one class. It consistently says that it is here to deliver the goods to that small section of the community that sent it here, and blow the rest of the nation.
The Tribune Group also has a clear view about the role of the State and of public expenditure in our society. It is no good papering over the differences between the hon. Member for Luton, West (Mr. Sedgemore) and, for instance, the Home Secretary. The Home Secretary put it better than any Conservative Member when he said recently that when more than 60 per cent. of the gross domestic product is controlled by the State, it is not just an economic matter but something that infringes upon the liberty of the individual. That was the spirit of his remarks. That is not a difference in strategy or tactics between the Tribune Group and him—it is a totally different vision of society. The sooner we recognise that the better.
Tonight we are debating this issue because of the Tribune Group's disagreement with the Social Democrats

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about the way in which the economy should be controlled. The Tribune Group wants a totally controlled Marxist economy. First, it wants a general reflation. It believes that a general reflation could be best achieved by shovelling money into manufacturing industry, because, on the whole, manufacturing industry is good and service industry is bad. It makes a moral judgment about various sectors of the economy. It also wants import controls.
Broadly speaking, the Tribune Group does not want a free trade economy or a mixed economy, as the Social Democrats want. Nor does it want the free movement either of people or capital. Time and again we hear of pop stars going to live elsewhere. Pop stars comprise only one class of entrepreneurs. It is not a question of different practice.
I suppose that many Labour Members will smugly say to themselves "Well, we have had our little protest, we have placed a shot across the bows of the Government, given them a little warning, told them that they must do better and be more Socialist in the future; that we would not stomach any more cuts, and that we were gratified by the way in which many Opposition Members explained in detail that the White Paper was no more than a spoof, that it did no more than just predict future cuts." It reality the White Paper indicates not the worst position but the best position. All the figures in the White Paper are based not upon the worst assumptions but the best ones. The assumption about growth is based upon the proposition that the people of Britain will respond to the glories of the Socialist millenium and will work harder than they have ever worked previously, and that we shall have a higher rate of growth than we have had over the last 30 years.
Every Government make the same arguments. We all have to believe that our particular philosophy will inspire the people. The same attempts at the most favourable assumptions were made about the figures for debt interest, yet we know that if Britain emerges from the present recession the demands that the State will make for funds will inevitably drive up interest rates. Therefore, once again the assumption about debt interest is probably much more favourable than the facts will turn out to be. The assumptions
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made about exports are made on the assumption that there will be no competitive devaluations which other countries may wish to make in order to counter our recent devaluation. Again, let us look at the assumptions made about North Sea oil. All those assumptions are made on the proposition that OPEC will continue to hold up the price of oil and that the price will never drop below $7 a barrel.
All these assumptions must come true if even the cuts forecast in the White Paper are the minimum that are necessary. However, the reality is that something worse will be required and that there will be not just further cuts but deeper and harsher cuts. If there are not such cuts, what will happen? There will be a need for yet further taxation. The days when the rich can be soaked have gone, as the Chancellor and others have made so clear to the House during the last few days. Therefore, once again it will be ordinary workers who have to bear increased taxation.
Again, there will possibly be an attempt at higher borrowing. If we are to have a continuation of a mixed economy, the increased demand that the State makes upon resources will drive up interest rates, and once again we shall see an even more struggling private sector.
Again, there will be the third alternative of allowing the requirement to be printed, and if that is done we shall have more inflation which will hit, most of all, ordinary working people and the 7 million pensioners, and people who are no part of the TUC.
Therefore, it would be more honourable, more consistent and more in keeping with the bravado that has been so frequently shown, if the Tribune Group said honestly to themselves that they were no part of the Social Democratic Labour Party but that they were a separate Marxist and, in some instances, Trotskyist element within our society. They frequently talk about the need for democracy. Let them stand as an independent party and let them put their views to the nation. The alternative is too awful for words.
Mr. James Wellbeloved: A Conservative Government.
Mr. Budgen: No, I meant the alternative of stumbling along with the present

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Government making concession after concession. It is already clear that the Chancellor has given the nod and said that perhaps the cuts can be redistributed. So they can. It may be, for instance, that the Prime Minister, with his genius for rearrangement, will appoint a rather stronger Secretary of State for Education and Science, a Secretary of State who can fight a little harder against the Treasury. It may be that arguably, in the next couple of years, there will be less of a cut in nursery education, for instance. Here I agree with the hon Member for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mrs. Short), who so often and so eloquently speaks about the need for more nursery education. It may be, for instance, that the Prime Minister will get rid of the Secretary of State for Defence and put a weaker man in his position so that possibly the Left wing will be placated when they see that there will be more cuts in defence expenditure. Again—for there is no last ditch in which the present Prime Minister will die—it may be, for the sake of argument, that the Tribune Group could be placated if we got out of Northern Ireland. If that is the price that the Prime Minister has to pay to the Tribune Group, pay it he will, and back the troops will come. We shall, therefore, muddle along, paying first one bit of Danegeld and then another.
Would it not be a more honourable course if the Tribune Group recognised its unique and important position in the political spectrum, and recognised that, like all other European countries, we have what is effectively a Communist Party in this country? If the people of this country want a Communist Party, let them have it. Let them decide the matter democratically. But let us not have a Government who have to stumble along and who cannot enter upon any consistent or coherent policy because all the time the Marxists and the Trotskyists have to be bought off.
7.25 p.m.
Mr. Frank Hooley: It is a pity, in a way, that our debates on public expenditure tend to be conducted on the lines that more public expenditure is anathema or is splendid, or less public expenditure is anathema or is splendid, as though public expenditure were a homogeneous thing right across
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the board and that it is good or bad, or that more is splendid and less is bad. In fact, however, public expenditure is not only for many radically different purposes but has quite different economic impacts.
For example, we could raise pensions by £1 a week. My mother and father want an extra £1 a week. I could contribute, say, another 35p out of my pocket, and the charge on the country's resources arising from that would be nil. It is a transfer from me to them. However, it appears in the public expenditure bill as an increase in pensions. It is multiplied by 7 million. Seven million times £1 a week, then multiplied by 52, appears as a huge increase in public expenditure, but that is taking no account of the transfer effect from those who pay social security contributions or taxation.
Mr. Robert Boscawen: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Hooley: No, I am sorry. Many hon. Members wish to take part in the debate.
This is taking no account of the fact that expenditure of that kind is essentially a transfer between different groups in society and does not essentially affect the total economy.
There are other forms of public expenditure which are very different. Much higher expenditure on housing makes a real demand on labour, materials, imported materials, and so on. This is a matter that one must judge as part of the total strength or otherwise of the economy.
It is unfortunate that these things are all lumped together and argued about together, as though their impact in different ways was the same. We ought to distinguish a little more clearly between what in effect are transfer payments and those aspects of public expenditure which are a real demand on the economic resources of the country, and those other aspects of public expenditure which are a real reinforcement of the economy in terms of investment in machinery, equipment, factories and the training of skilled manpower. These are very different categories and it is quite wrong to argue as. if it were all expenditure in one pattern.
The other curiosity of our debates is that at present steel, railways, telecommunications and mines are in the public

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sector, and therefore we count the investment in those industries as public expenditure. At present, the aircraft and shipbuilding industries are not in the public sector, so investment in them is regarded as private expenditure. It is regarded as outside the debate. We say "We are not talking about aircraft and shipbuilding; we are talking about the investment in the publicly owned industries." However, within a short time aircraft and shipbuilding will come into public ownership. Then, suddenly, investment in the shipbuilding and aerospace industries will become a matter of public expenditure.
The real debate is not whether investment in steel, telecommunications, shipbuilding, aircraft and so on is public or private. The real debate should be about whether we are getting the right volume of investment in these essential industries so as to make them competitive in export markets and so that they can make a contribution to the economy generally. All sorts of emotion is generated about investment if it is made in the public sector, but we do not argue that it matters quite so much if it is made in the private sector. That brings an element of unreality into the whole debate.
We are debating our economic strength. The background to the Government's general strategy can be illustrated by one or two figures. Let us consider, for example, the production of steel from 1964 to 1975. Between 1964 and 1973 we produced about 26 million tons a year. It varied slightly both up and down, but it was about that amount. In 1974 it fell to 22 million tons, and by 1975 it had fallen to 20 million tons. In 1974 the car industry produced the smallest number of private cars for the past 12 years. Commercial vehicle production was the lowest but one over the same period.
Therefore, in two important centres of industry we find that we are producing substantially less than 10 years ago, and less than we have been producing in recent years. That is an index of our national wealth. That is the real wealth of the country. We can play around with figures, but steel, cars and other forms of industrial output represent our real wealth.
Perhaps more disastrous in some respects are the import and export figures for iron and steel products. Until 1973
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there was a surplus of exports over imports and to that extent we were in pocket. However, in 1974 we went into deficit. In 1975 there was another deficit. In 1971 we had a 2½ million ton surplus in the export of steel and steel products over imports. In 1974 and 1975 we had a 750,000 ton deficit. That is the index of the failure of our manufacturing industries over recent years. It is that failure that must be made good if the country is to have any prosperity in future.
Somewhere along the line we must pay for the raw materials which our industries find essential on the world markets. In an intervention I pointed out that we have to import iron ore, copper, bauxite, tin, rubber, jute, sisal, wool, cotton, tungsten, molybdenum, and practically every other raw material with the exception of coal, as well as oil. Those are the raw materials that our industries need and that must be imported and paid for. Raw materials have to be paid for at prices that we do not control. I am afraid that some of my hon. Friends talk about managing the economy as though all the factors involved were directly under the control of the Government of the day, whether Conservative or Labour.
Oil provides the most glaring example. In 1971 we paid £1,184 million for our oil imports. In 1975 we paid £4,168 million. In other words, we paid about £3,000 million more for a smaller quantity of oil. We do not have any control over that. I hope that over the years to come it will be possible to arrive at international agreements which will tend to stabilise raw materials and commodity prices. There is to be an important United Nations conference in Nairobi in May at which I hope some progress will be made. However, at the moment we do not have control over prices. They are clearly a vital factor in our economy.
We must work on the assumption that we must have an industrial base that is powerful enough, efficient enough and developed enough in terms of machinery and manpower to pay our way in the world economy. In so far as my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is designing his policies and moving towards the strengthening of our industrial base, I think he is right and has little option. But what surprises and

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puzzles me is that it is precisely in these categories that the White Paper appears to be somewhat weak.
The table in page 14 shows that projected expenditure on trade, industry and employment is to be reduced from this year to next from £2,618 million to £2,249 million. Likewise, capital expenditure on the publicly-owned industries is to be reduced from £3,358 million to £3,050 million. If we aggregate the two figures, which represent major public spending on trade, industry and investment, we find that between the current financial year and the next financial year there will be a decline from £6,000 million to £5,300 million. I hope that the Treasury Bench will provide an explanation. The figures seem to run counter to the Government's strategy and the strategy which I support.
I turn to the more detailed figures that are provided in pages 32 and 33. Regional support and regeneration declines from £584 million to £574 million. Industrial innovation, which I consider to be of cardinal importance, declines from £354 million to £218 million. General support for industry goes down from £597 million to £479 million. Support for nationalised industries goes down from £185 million to £99 million. The only category which shows an increase in the table is employment and industrial training. Taking the table as a whole, we find that there is a fall from £2,681 million to £2,272 million.
I do not understand those figures and that drift in terms of what I understand to be the Government's general strategy, which I support. I believe that there should be a more powerful injection of public funds within those categories. I support those of my right hon. and hon. Friends who say that the National Enterprise Board is not being given the facilities, power and money that it needs to do its job. The £1,000 million that is proposed for the NEB is inadequate. It needs about £3,000 million or £4,000 million over the next three or four years if we want successfully to regenerate British industry. That is an essential objective.
I am satisfied that the future economy and prosperity of the nation can be achieved only by an infinitely more powerful industrial base than at present exists. Unless we pump money into industrial investment, manpower training
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and the redeployment of labour, the slide in our prosperity which has occurred in the past two or three years must, alas, continue.
7.37 p.m.
Mr. Peter Rees: I am bound to say that I find myself in agreement with the conclusions reached by the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Mr. Hooley), although possibly he and I disagree slightly on the methods by which money should be pumped into industry. However, the hon. Gentleman at least lifted the debate from what has been described as the private agony of the Labour Party. I should prefer to describe it as the continuing farce, coloured at times with drama, over what we must describe as the soul of the Labour movement.
It must be painful for the Prime Minister, who has obviously seen himself as the Stanley Baldwin of our times—the leader of the natural party of government—to find that after all he is only the Ramsey MacDonald. It must be painful for him to discover that once again he has the intractable and unhappy problem of leading the Labour Party.
It is equally bizarre to find that the Chancellor, with not a tiny Chinese but a capacious Muscovite mind, is cast as the Philip Snowden of our times. It is not often that I extend a little sympathy to the Chancellor, but on this occasion I must do so. The present situation must be galling for him. He has tried so hard to conciliate his erstwhile Friends below the Gangway. If only they could read the figures, they would realise how many concessions he has made to their point of view. The pity is that with their tiny Chinese minds they have not grasped how far he has moved in their direction. However, these are the brutalities of public life.
I am not over-concerned about the soul of the Labour movement. I am bound to say that I find it a rather hard and unattractive little object, which does not move me or my electors. I am more concerned about the country's future and the implications which can be spelled out in the public expenditure White Paper that we have debated this week and which introduce the great constitutional issues we are debating tonight.

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If there were needed a short, sharp, clear and objective verdict on the White Paper, it is to be found in the performance of the pound on the currency markets. The best test of how we are performing economically is the extent to which foreigners are prepared to hold our currency and to pay for it. It would have been inconceivable three or four years ago to predict that the pound would slide, with only a tremor of concern from the Government, to a value below two dollars.
Some countries sink under the weight of empires and the effort of maintaining a position in the world which their economic base does not justify. We have stripped ourselves of our imperial trappings and responsibilities and have rendered ourselves virtually incapable of intervening outside our own shores or, in the case of Northern Ireland, almost within our own shores. The vision of sending troops to Rhodesia is only a vision.
Why is our economic performance so poor? Why have we relaxed our grip? It is because we have loaded ourselves with a superstructure of government and government services which is way beyond our means to support.
My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) was challenged to say on Tuesday which cuts he would have made. It would be an arid exercise to go through all the White Paper figures, but my conclusion can be summarised by saying that this country is carrying an insupportable surden of fixed overheads. The most revealing part of the White Paper analyses Government expenditure into capital and revenue expenditure. The level of capital expenditure has remained static while revenue expenditure has increased, so that the ratio is now one to four, where it was once one to three.
It is always the capital projects that are cut in the moments of frenzy and agony. Over the past two years no one has had the nerve to cut the enormous superstructure.
Expenditure on hospitals and schools is cut, and that is why the main hospital in Dover, the premier gateway to the United Kingdom, is still housed in a Poor
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Law institution which dates back to the early years of the last century. While the hospitals and school programmes are being cut, public sector employment increases annually, and the Government have not had the nerve to face that challenge.
Fumbling through the White Paper, we see the projections for the next three or four years provide £80 million annually to buy new accommodation and office space for the Civil Service, with another £80 million set aside for rents. This may be a relatively small amount out of the total burden of public expenditure but it is an indication of the sort of direction in which the Government have been channel ling our funds. It is interesting to note, also, that the cost of tax collection has now risen to £440 million a year.
The Secretary of State for Environment has told us recently that the party is over. Unaccountably, the guests linger on. The figures in the White Paper are suspect and the assumptions on which they are based are even more suspect.
I think the Chancellor will be back. He is faced with a dilemma. He may have to come back with even greater cuts, in which case the Tribune Group will have to reconsider its position. We know that the Patronage Secretary will get them into the right Lobby tonight, but they will be faced with the same political test again, if not this summer, then next autumn or the following spring. The Chancellor's only alternative is unmanageable tax increases. In a remarkable speech earlier this week by the Chief Secretary, which will repay close study and provide my hon. Friends and myself with quotations that we shall relish to the end of our political days, it was made clear that the Government have realised at last that we have reached the limit of our taxable capacity and have rejected the possibility of further considerable tax increases.
The Tribune Group Members rose to the challenge last night, and I admire them for that. At least they took up a position. But now they have had their one bark, to use the Prime Minister's classic phrase, and they will still have to face the challenge again and again. We shall understand it if they vote with the Government tonight, but we shall watch carefully what happens when the Chancellor comes back—as he will—in

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six or 12 months' time, if the Government survive that long.
The only real cuts in public expenditure in recent years were made by Lord Barber in May and December 1973. They were not cuts to be implemented in two or three years' time; they were 1,700 million of cuts to take effect in 1975–76.
If the collapse of this Government, which cannot be long delayed, is traced to its origins, it will be found to be due to two fatal decisions taken by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1974. The first was to relax the reins to cancel the cuts ordered by his predecessor, and to allow the level of Government expenditure to rise; the other was his decision to reduce the rate of VAT.
The Crossman Diaries assure us that the fall of the 1964–1970 Labour Government could be traced to the decision not to devalue in the autumn of 1964. The ultimate collapse of this Government will be traced to those two fatal decisions in the summer of 1974.
The writing is on the wall. Perhaps it would be a little far-fetched to describe London as the Babylon of the twentieth century. Even the hon. Member for Luton, West (Mr. Sedgemore), who is given to rather lurid imagery, would hardly describe the Prime Minister as Belshazzar, and there are not many feasts nowadays. But the writing is on the wall.
Perhaps Biblical precedents are a little out of date, but there is a shameful precedent of another country with a long history, even though latterly its performance in the world has not been as glorious as ours. In the nineteenth century, Egypt was loaded with a burden of debt that it could not support. As the International Monetary Fund will now keep an eagle eye on our performance, so then the great Powers had to bail out Egypt. Lord Cromer—then Sir Evelyn Baring—was sent to sort out Egypt's affairs. History has a way of repeating itself. His distinguished descendant may yet have another chance to sort out our finances. I hope not, because I believe that it is the pre-eminent duty of this House and British Governments to undertake this task.
There is no law which guarantees a country against the consequences of its own economic follies. I do not want to feed paranoiac delusions of the Prime Minister by suggesting that he has been
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squandering our public finances on dancing girls. It is true that he maintains an elaborate court, which has had more than its share of ribbons, peerages and public appointments. The hon. Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton) is right to aim his austere anti-monarchical shafts at the Prime Minister in this regard.
The real count against the Prime Minister—and it is the Prime Minister whose future is at stake tonight—is that he has narrowed the productive base of the country. He has padded the public payroll with so many that he believes that he can count on a majority with a vested interest in perpetuating the present economic and political structure. He has debauched us with our own money.
The consequences of a decade of Wilsonism are there for all to see in the public expenditure White Paper. Against that background the Prime Minister asks us for our confidence. We know that he will survive tonight. The Patronage Secretary has done his job. He has no doubt threatened, cajoled, browbeaten—I know not what—but we know, and the country knows, that the Prime Minister no longer has the confidence of his own party, the House, or the electorate.
7.51 p.m.
Mr. Alan Lee Williams: Inevitably at this time of night one begins to flag and the arguments tend to be used up by the time one comes to speak. The hon. and learned Member for Dover and Deal (Mr. Rees) had to go back to Biblical times and to ancient Greece for his inspiration. He did so with great wit, but we need not take him too seriously.
The dilemma we face has been somewhat lost sight of in the last hour or so. While listening carefully to the debate, on the odd occasion I dozed off. On waking I wondered whether I was listening to a foreign affairs or defence debate. The debate seemed to lack the sense of urgency which I would expect a debate of this kind to produce. No one seems to be taking it very seriously, and that is a great mistake.
Last night some of my hon. Friends placed the Government in a tremendous dilemma. In so doing they have also placed themselves in a dilemma. To use a phrase coined by the right hon.

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Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath), boxes have been erected around the Tribune Group as well as round the Government. Their action last night in abstaining so ostentatiously and the way in which they will be able to vote for the Government tonight without seeing the inconsistency are worrying. Perhaps they do see the inconsistency and disregard it. I hope not. I still firmly believe that politics is about great battles of principle and not about nods and winks.
I am by no means an unqualified admirer of the Treasury Bench. In many respects the Government have a great deal to answer for. In handling several issues they have taken away the clash of principle which brings out the best in politics. The way in which the Government handled the debate yesterday fell below the level of events. It was unwise for the Government Front Bench spokesmen to concentrate so narrowly. I did not hear the Financial Secretary, and I exclude from that stricture the Paymaster-General, who spoke last night on the great issues. What he said was as much a lesson to the Government as to my hon. Friends.
The real question is whether the Government will take on board the lessons. They cannot be totally excluded from blame. They are not the world's best communicators. The way in which policies are produced and explained sometimes leaves a great deal to be desired. That is part of the problem faced by certain segments of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
On the other hand, tonight we have seen a certain awareness. It will not be possible for my honourable Friends to think that they can behave in the future exactly as they did last night. It will not be possible for them to select a certain issue which they find unpalatable and hope that if the Government are defeated on that issue, they will be able to vote for the Government on a motion of confidence. Parliamentary government and, above all, this Government could not survive those tactics.
I hope that in future my hon. Friends will act with great restraint, without necessarily abandoning their beliefs or principles, but bearing in mind that only as a disciplined party can we govern the country. Some of my hon. Friends do
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not like belonging to a governing party, but that is another dilemma.
When the Government came to office in 1974, we all knew that we should have to take appalling decisions on Government expenditure. We have waited a long time for the expenditure review. It has now arrived, with all its imperfections. No hon. Member can go along completely with any one package which the Government produce. Nevertheless, there is recognition that at long last the Government are tackling the broad economic problems which face the country. That is recognised by the Labour Party in the country and by independent commentators and observers outside the House.
I hope that my hon. Friends in future will show a degree of confidence in their own leaders, who have at long last recognised the need for a tough, resolute attitude which will tackle inflation with no flinching or running away. If there is any temptation to do so, it would be far better for my hon. Friends to bring down the Government than to go on in a piecemeal way eroding the Government's will to discharge their responsibility to the country and the British people.
7.59 p.m.
Mr. A. P. Costain: As a member of the Public Accounts Committee, I was not able to take part in the debate yesterday, so I welcome the opportunity to say a few words now. We must realise what the debate is about. I understand that last night a group of the governing party decided that they could not support the Government. In ordinary circumstances, according to democratic tradition, the Prime Minister should have offered his resignation and dissolved Parliament.
But the Prime Minister decided in his wisdom that the right course was to defend his record tonight in a censure debate. He wanted the opportunity to make an outstanding speech to convince those who abstained last night that they ought to support the Government. Instead, we heard a poor, pathetic Prime Minister trying to build up his hopes and ambitions to stay in office. It was the most pathetic speech we have ever listened to in this House.
One Parliamentary Private Secretary told the House that he expects to be

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sacked after this debate. I had a good deal of sympathy with him, because I was a Parliamentary Private Secretary to the same individual in five Ministries. I know precisely the feeling that Parliamentary Private Secretary had when he did not support his Government. It will be interesting to see whether he is sacked or made a scapegoat.
I can assure the hon. Gentleman, and all the other hon. Gentlemen who abstained last night, or who were brave enough to vote with the Opposition, that they will not lose the whip. Do not let them be kidded by the Patronage Secretary that if they do not support the Government tonight, they will lose the whip. Let them use their common sense. If one of them loses the Whip, the Government lose their majority. If the Government lose their majority, they will lose their majority in the Standing Committees. There is no risk whatever of any of these hon. Gentlemen being disciplined by having to lose their Whip.
In this debate we are concerned with the failure of the present Government to live up to the promises they made at the last General Election. I have always said that the Prime Minister is one of the best salesmen I have ever met, but he is one of the worst statesmen, because the qualities needed in a statesman are precisely the opposite to those needed in a salesman. It was pathetic to see this salesman standing at the Dispatch Box trying to defend a product which has gone completely wrong.
Why has it gone wrong? All through our economic debates we have been told that private industry has not invested enough in capital structure, and that therefore as a nation we are not producing enough. When a board decides whether to make a capital investment, it has to consider three factors. First, if new plant and machinery is installed, will it be more economical? Will the trade unions allow it to be used to its full capacity? Secondly, will there be sufficient sales of the products produced? Thirdly can the company borrow money cheaply enough to make it a viable proposition? What better example have we than the £10 million invested in a new steelworks, where the machinery lay unused because the union feared it would cause redundancies?
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Any board has to consider what confidence it can rightly have in the Government. The Government have been boasting for years about their plans to nationalise industry. They are continually adding to their shopping list. How can any private enterprise be expected to put more capital into its factories or plant if it knows that in due course it will be nationalised?
Only this week the chairman of one of the largest of our nationalised industries told us in the Public Accounts Committee that his industry was so controlled by this House that it could not carry out a long-term policy. It has to deal with Minister after Minister, so that the board becomes a mere cypher, having to try to deal with policies which change from month to month, and sometimes almost from hour to hour.
For this reason the nationalised industries cannot get the right people to take senior executive directors' jobs. One of the most important posts in any industry from the angle of long-term strategy and success is that of finance director, yet several of our nationalised industries have been unable to get a finance director.
They do not offer enough money. They do not offer as much as a junior partner would get in a firm of chartered accountants. There is no provision whatever for pensions. There are some eminent industrialists who might be glad to fill these posts, but there is a limit to the sacrifices that a man can expect his wife and family to accept. These are men with well-paid jobs, good pension rights, and the job satisfaction that comes from not having their policies interrupted or interfered with. It is impossible for the nationalised industries to attract the right people in those circumstances.
What are our chances of selling overseas, of getting a better return for investment, and better production? I can claim to have sold as much as any hon. Member of this House. That was when I worked in the Middle East. But one of the great problems of this country throughout the last 10 years has been our failure to deliver the goods on time.
In one instance an order for 700 Land Rovers could have gone to the Middle East. One of the oil States would have been glad to take them at the price quoted, but there was, unfortunately, no

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guarantee of delivering them on time because of the number of strikes taking place. The entire order went to Japan instead. Some of these strikes occur not because the people on the shop floor feel they ought to strike but because those concerned fear that otherwise they may be considered blacklegs.
Some hon. Members may change their minds this evening and vote with the Government because they do not want to be called blacklegs. The militant Left have always had control over the workers in the industries of this country because they have been able to frighten them with the threat of being called blacklegs. I wish that these people would appreciate that by taking these unnecessary measures they are in fact export saboteurs. They ought to realise that it is worse to be an export saboteur than it is to be a blackleg.
We know that a group of hon. Members are disappointed with the results they have had from their Government. They showed their feelings by abstaining in the Division last night. I believe that two of them voted with the Opposition. I suggest to them that they will never live with their consciences if tonight they change their minds. They have no excuse for doing so. The Prime Minister's speech did not thrill them into realising that his was the way.
Ms. Maureen Colquhoun: The hon. Gentleman is the best excuse for changing one's mind.
Mr. Costain: I have never had a lady say that to me before. But I do not think that we should go any further into that, because it would be out of order.
But what the hon. Lady is saying is that she is going to change her mind because she knows that the Conservative Party will sweep the board in an election and she will lose her seat. That is what she really means.
When the Conservative Government in February 1974 felt that they needed the support of the nation, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath), without any pressure from Parliament, called a General Election. He lost office because of it, but I believe that he gained the respect of the nation.
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So many people write to me asking "What can we do? We are so worried about the cost of things and the way the country is running down. Should we go on protest marches to Whitehall? Should we stop paying our rates? What can we do? We feel so helpless. The country is going to the dogs and we can do nothing about it." But they can do something about it if the Government face their responsibilities and hon. Members opposite stick to the principle about which they felt so strong last night and do not support the Government tonight. Then the nation will be given the chance to decide, and on that decision democracy will really exist again.
8.12 p.m.
Mrs. Audrey Wise: It is a trifle comical to listen to the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Costain) struggling to understand the working-class concept of solidarity amongst workers facing a strike situation. It is perhaps too much of a strain for him, and he does not do much better in dealing with the concept of the traditions of democracy in this House. Some of us think that the traditions of democracy in this House could themselves do with a little improvement. For example, some of us think that it is monstrous that a large group of hon. Members can table an amendment which can be ignored, and is ignored, by the Chair, so that they are deprived of an opportunity to vote to express their views. However, that is a situation that we face and we have to grapple with it. We grappled with it last night.
Hon. Members on the Opposition Benches suggest that the Patronage Secretary, as they call him—it is an interesting title—has had a lot of work, amounting to threats and even bribery—which was a word one of them used, not watching his language. I assure them that we have not put our Chief Whip to that sort of strain at all. My hon. Friends and I are perfectly capable of taking ourselves into the Lobby of our choice on our own terms. We do not accept the right even of our own right hon. and hon. Friends to define the terms on which we enter that Lobby.
When I enter the Lobby in support of the Government tonight, I shall do so to sustain the Government in office. When

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I refrained from entering the Government Lobby last night, I was expressing a view of the Government's economic strategy and my desire that they should go back to the economic strategy outlined in our manifesto. Other hon. Members may have other reasons for entering a Lobby or not doing so, but I shall define my own terms and they can define theirs.
We have had a lot of abuse, not least, I regret to say, from my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister himself. He clearly was not setting out to win friends and influence people. One of my hon. Friends took the precaution of staying outside the Chamber in case, having heard the Prime Minister, he found it harder tonight to enter the Lobby in support of the Government. Being made of stronger stuff, I managed to survive the Prime Minister's speech with my intentions undimmed.
Some of the abuse involved accusations of forming alliances. We have shown, both in the public expenditure debate and today, that there is no conceivable alliance between ourselves and the Opposition. That has been abundantly demonstrated. But there have been, as other hon. Members have pointed out, forcefully and correctly, notable alliances between a minority on this side of the House—unfortunately, including a majority of the Cabinet—with hon. Members opposite on the subject of the Common Market.
Reference to the Common Market is in order in this debate because that decision was argued a good deal in economic terms, although some of us also argued it in political terms.
Undoubtedly, had the people voted to withdraw from the Common Market, and had we still had the current unemployment figures, we would be told that those high figures were the direct result of our withdrawal from the Common Market. Were food prices increasing, we would be told that that was the result of coming out of the Common Market.
But we stayed in, and it is remarkable how little the Common Market has been mentioned since 7th June last year—how it has gone into the background of economic and political consideration, because, of course, the people were deceived into thinking that our economic
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strategy as a nation would somehow be helped by our remaining in the Common Market. Having been proved wrong, all the members of that unholy alliance which led the people astray on the Common Market maintain a discreet silence. The facts are going to force many of us to get a little noisier on that topic, and increasingly so.
The right hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) referred to unofficial coalitions. He seemed to find it a little indecent that an incoming Government should undo some of the measures taken by their predecessors. I do not find that indecent. I thought that the whole concept of a pluralistic democracy concerned the right of the people to elect an alternative Government which would then do other things. But the right hon. Gentleman finds that sinister. He seems to suggest that the nation would be healthier if there were a pretence of pluralism, of alternative Government, but in fact a nice cosy arrangement at least amongst three-quarters of Members of this House.
I do not think that things go quite so far, but I have noticed that there are many occassions when there appears to be some sort of de facto agreement, to my great distress, between the Front Benches on things such as industrial strategy and the Industry Act itself. When the Act was going through Committee, our Front Bench was saved on many occasions by support from the Conservatives. I regard that as very regrettable.
The justification given for the White Paper on Public Expenditure is, in essence, the thought that, as the economy goes into upturn, if it does, capital and manpower will need to be released in order to supply manufacturing industry. On the basis of that claim the Government tell us that we will not be able to spend our resources on many of the things which we claimed during our election campaign were necessities—not luxuries or frills, but social improvements. This is unacceptable to me.
It is curious, because nowhere in the White Paper in the talk about releasing capital, do the Government spell out how they will ensure that resources not used in the public sector will be invested in this country in manufacturing. Nowhere do they spell out how they will prevent such resources being siphoned abroad, into property. We are all familiar with

723
the desire of many of those represented by Conservative Members to invest abroad if they feel that that is the more profitable area.
I would feel happier about the Government's strategy if they seemed to take any cognisance of the fact that there is no historical, logical, political, economic or philosophical evidence that investment in manufacturing industry in this country will take place by curtailing expenditure in the public sector. I agree with many of the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Mr. Hooley). He said that in any case public expenditure is dealt with in too undigested a fashion. He made various suggestions about the section-by-section examination we should be making. He was correct in many of the things he said.
For instance, my hon. Friend distinguished between transfer payments and other kinds of expenditure. We could also distinguish between one kind of transfer payment and another. My hon. Friend instanced pensions. We would all agree with increased transfer payments of that kind. Some of us met a lobby yesterday and demonstrated our agreement with that idea. Another kind of transfer payment is that which, regret-ably, has to do with unemployment pay. Many of us feel that the economic strategy of the Government will lead to an increase in unemployment and thus in unemployment pay.
That leads naturally to the question of the release of manpower. It is extraordinary to claim that we need a release of manpower when we have between 1½ million and 1¼ million unemployed and when the labour force will grow by about 600,000 by 1980. It is a pity that it is apparently only recently that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury has realised this latter figure. It is a pity that he was not aware of this, apparently, when he helped to draw up the White Paper which talks about needing a release of manpower. One would have thought that keeping an eye on the likely growth or diminution in the labour force would be an important aspect of manpower planning. The Chief Secretary seems to have overlooked this, on his own public admission, until recently.
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I suggest that the definition of economic strategy being used by the Government is not only wrong but is far too narrow. There are many things which we ought to be discussing, such as getting value for money and resources expended in useful areas. I would like to discuss that subject, but we do not do so. There is an assumption in many parts of the House that private expenditure is good and public expenditure bad. We all know of the waste and misuse of resources that occurs in both the public and especially the private sectors. Why do we not get down to examining that? Why do we not ram down the throats of Conservative Members the ways in which their policies have led to waste in, for example, local government reorganisation? Why do we allow our local authorities to take the blame fore increased costs when that blame does not belong to them? Instead of abusing his hon. Friends the Prime Minister could more legitimately have abused Conservative Members.
Mr. Costain: Will the hon. Lady explain why, when the Report of the Public Accounts Committee was debated in the House, she was not in her place? There was only one Labour Member present, and he was a member of the Public Accounts Committee. What is the good of saying those things if the hon. Lady does not bother to attend?
Mrs. Wise: I am willing to compare my record of attendance, voting and work in this House on behalf of my constituents with that of any other hon. Member. I am not willing to discuss my attendances on a particular day with the hon. Member.
Another aspect of economic and industrial strategy at which we should look concerns the wasteful practices of private enterprise, such as the policy of built-in obsolescence. If we are thinking about the scarcity of resources and the difficulty of paying for raw material imports we ought to look at the misuse of those raw materials. This would cause some Conservative Members some embarrassment. We should also look at the reallocation of resources devoted to arms expenditure. By that I do not mean that we should add to the number of those requiring unemployment pay. I mean that alternative, useful work should be found. There

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are all these areas of consideration of industrial strategy which would be appropriate and which I contend are being neglected.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton: Is the hon. Lady aware how many people are employed in our defence industries? Is she further aware of the export record of the companies involved and of how much the Government receive from those employed by the companies by way of PAYE and other forms of taxation—in addition to the company profits paid to the Government?
Mrs. Wise: We know that Conservative Members think that all that workers can make is armaments. We reject that. We know to our peril about the export trade in armaments, which is placing our economic health at the mercy of wars conducted overseas.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton: What about the Russian tanks in Angola?
Mrs. Wise: We know that Conservative Members feel secure only when they are encouraging people to fight one another. They think that the economic health of this country depends on such actions. I do not believe that any of my hon. Friends shares that view.
In firing the famous shot across the bows last night we were indicating to the Government that it would be a good idea for them to take a wider and deeper look at their economic and industrial strategy. I sincerely hope and expect that they will do this. That is why I can go into the Lobby tonight to sustain this Government, and I am glad that Opposition Members disapprove of my action. I can go into the Lobby with perfect equanimity, knowing that I have shown not only that my views are sincerely held but that they are seriously held. I am confident that the Government will take note of our demonstration.
8.31 p.m.
Sir Anthony Meyer: At the beginning of the speech by the hon. Member for Coventry, South-West (Mrs. Wise) I was tempted to lure her to sin in the "No" Lobby, but this temptation ebbed from me as her speech proceeded. In any case, to do that would be inconsistent with the argument that I want to deploy.
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The Liberal Benches have been somewhat empty throughout most of the proceedings and I can only assume that the Liberals are playing the time-honoured game of hunt-the-deposit at Carshalton. I listened with interest to what the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mr. Thorpe) had to say about the need for concerted action by all political parties to overcome the frightening difficulties facing the nation. I found myself wishing that at a critical moment in our history in February 1975 the right hon. Gentleman had been prepared to translate his ideas into action. I thought that he might have been a little less coy in using the word "coalition".
I must emphasise that I am speaking only for myself, but I believe, as I have for the past two years, that the country needs a national coalition Government if it is to overcome the formidable difficulties that face it. The country needs such a Government because the choices that have to be made are too harsh in terms of the cost that they involve to the living standards of everyone—including the living standards of the poorest—too frightening in terms of the choices that have to be made on foreign policy, particularly in Africa. They are too unpopular to be born by a single political party faced with an Opposition that would exploit that unpopularity to win the next election.
I admit that such a coalition is unlikely to emerge in present circumstances. But whatever Government takes the measures that are necessary to get the country out of its difficulties will need some degree of support extending beyond a single party. In particular this Government, if they are to take the measures that must be taken, will require support extending beyond the Labour Party, because they will not always be able to rely on their own left wing, as yesterday's vote showed only too clearly.
The Prime Miinster will need support from someone else and he will have to pay the price for it. Although today he insulted and publicly humiliated Members of the Tribune Group, he knew that they would vote for him tonight. Everyone knows that in due course this Prime Minister will have to pay the Tribune Group in real currency—the currency of concession to their demands in higher Government expenditure.

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We had an example of that yesterday when the Secretary of State for Wales told the Welsh Grand Committee that, despite all the talk of cuts in housing allocation, there would be £20 million for expenditure on housing. That proves that there are always concessions available when they are needed. Members of the Tribune Group know that after today's insults and humiliation they will get their money in real currency.
The Prime Minister sometimes likes to boast that he is a national leader, but he has been described in an unforgettable phrase by Paul Johnson as "the Chatham of the Cod War". If the Prime Minister has to pay the price for the support of people outside his own party, he will pay them with a cheque that bounces. [An HON. MEMBER: "With our money."] With our money, but even then he will disregard the cheque. I found it very instructive to contrast the Prime Minister's performance and, for that matter, the Chancellor's performance at the beginning of the two-day debate on the White Paper with the offensive language and insults hurled at his left wing and at the same time the little nods and winks which said "You know that I am obliged to insult you in public, but come round and sec me afterwards in my office and there will be a little something for you."
It was very instructive to contrast that with the one honest speech I heard from the Government Front Bench in the debate, that of the right hon. Gentleman the Paymaster-General at the end of the proceedings last night. I feel sure in my own mind that had any Minister other than he wound up last night, those Tribune Group Members would not have sat on their hands, all 36 of them, and refused to vote. His honesty was something they just could not take, and honesty is something this country badly needs from this Government and has not got.
There was the long shameful so-called social contract, which was a device for concealing from the trade union movement the need for sacrifices from everybody if the nation was to pull out of its troubles. We have been fed a steady diet of deception and deceit. The Prime Minister may have made a thorough hash of sterling, but he has been a liberal
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pedlar of LSD to the British public. He cannot now command the confidence that is needed if this country is ever to stage any kind of economic recovery. He himself is now the greatest obstacle to this nation's well-being. It is time for him to go.
8.38 p.m.
Mr. John Watkinson: It will be no surprise to the House that I do not propose to follow the remarks made by the hon. Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer). He has criticised the Prime Minister of this country for being a liberal spender of £. s. d., and, if I may say so, that testifies to the attitude of certain hon. Members opposite in relation to public expenditure.
We have been debating public expenditure and its worth and value in terms of the community. I was not part of the abstention last night, though I understand the motivating forces which drove hon. Members on this side to abstain, because their abstention meant—and in that context it is worth reminding ourselves of it—that they were taking a stand about certain values in our society. They were saying that those values in our society, values which we on this side hold dear, are presently endangered by the cuts in public expenditure.
No one who knows anything at all about the way supporters of the Labour movement and workers for our party feel can deny that public expenditure is of the essence of their faith. It is why many of us came into the movement—to sustain a high level of public expenditure, to provide those services which we regard as vital to the community.
We heard in eloquent terms from my hon. Friend the Member for Eton and Slough (Miss Lestor) and my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) of cuts which are already taking place. In this debate it is as well to remember when we trade insults across the Floor and laugh at each other just what it happening in this country now as a result of cuts. I have here a document from the British Association of Social Workers which points out, for instance, that in Coventry two small homes for elderly people will be left vacant, and a home for the physically handicapped and a home for discharged psychiatric patients will remain empty for two years.

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That is the context in which we must view the debate. We are taking decisions of the utmost concern to hon. Members on this side and, I hope, on the other side of the House. Therefore, I can understand the reaction of my hon. Friends in abstaining.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Watkinson: I do not want to give way. My hon. Friends were saying that the values for which they stand and which they hold dear are in danger. The Labour Party is not about consumerism or simply providing television sets. T. S. Eliot summed it up when he wrote,
"What is going to be the monument of this age?
The tarmacadam road and a thousand lost golf balls."
We believe that other things are more important. The provision of services for the old and the handicaped is of the essence.
The business of Government is choosing priorities. Within our public expenditure we must make certain agonising choices. I have indicated some areas where I think the choices must be made—the provision of services for the old, the mentally handicapped, and so on. But I also say—and this is why I found myself voting with the Government last night—that it does not matter how far we go along the road about which I have just been talking, for sooner or later we shall come up against a brick wall called economic reality. We must look over that wall to see the consequences of our actions.
At the end of the day there is always that still small voice which asks "How are you going to pay for it?". My hon. Friend the Member for Luton, West (Mr. Sedgemore), in a lucid speech, quite openly said that he would pay for it out of increased taxation.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton: Tell that to the people in Wirral and Carlshalton.
Mr. Watkinson: In saying that, my hon. Friend admitted something which I think is vital to our understanding of the economic situaton—namely, that we cannot go on borrowing at the rate at which we have been borrowing. In support of that argument, I pray in aid
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the TUC report, which admits that one of the prime concerns of the Government is the present level of the public sector borrowing requirement. Can we go on financing that requirement? I do not see how we can.
The Government have been extremely fortunate in the way that they have been able to finance that requirement, because they have not been forced into the banking sector to get that money. As a member of the Labour Party and as a Socalist, I find the banking mechanism of this country extraordinary. The banking system can and does hold this country's economic policy to ransom. Under the rules of the banking system, if the Government, in order to finance their debt, are forced into that sector, the system is able to create bank deposits: in other words, to fuel inflation.
The Opposition should take this on board. Whether they like it or not, that factor ruined their Administration. The Barber boom failed on this rock. The Government have been in power for two years and still the banks have this unlimited power to create money if the Government are forced into that sector to raise their borrowing requirement.
So far the Government have been lucky in being able to finance their borrowing requirement. However, there is no gainsaying the fact that if expansion is to be financed in our industrial base, which we all want, the funds which are presently afloat in the City of London and which are made available to the Government to draw on for borrowing will not be available to the Government, and we may well be faced with inflationary expansion of money supply over which we have no control.
A White Paper will soon be published on the control of the banking sector. I believe that that control should come in rapidly, because there is no reason why we should be held to ransom in the way the Conservative Administration was held to ransom in previous years.
I understand the arguments of my hon. Friends who say that there is no mechanism at work which will ensure the funds which we wish to release go into the industrial base. As has been pointed out, there is any amount of funds at present in the City of London to go into industry, but they are not being called upon.
Mr. Parkinson: The reason why people do not want to invest is that most of the Government's other actions in connection with tax and the activities of the Secretary of State for Employment make it unattractive to invest and to employ people. The hon. Member is right, but his own Government are creating the conditions which prevent what he wants.
Mr. Watkinson: I agree that there must be a certain amount of stability at least in our economy. That means that we must get inflation under control. That is one of the reasons why I do not support the contention of my hon. Friend the Member for Luton. West that we can increase taxation dramatically. I know, and the trade union leaders know, that the level of taxation has now become a significant factor in wage negotiations. That cannot be denied. It is one of the reasons why the social contract failed economically. Taxation is an integral part of every wage demand. Therefore, we cannot increase taxation. We cannot finance our borrowing requirements out of increased taxation, for the reasons I have given and for the further reason that the Government in their coming Budget should cut taxation.
My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Mr. Litterick) pointed this matter out very forcefully to the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) yesterday when he said that one of the factors underlying the recession in this country was the severe lack of demand in the economy. Keynes may be out of date, but this is a Keynesian explanation which we must consider.
There is a deficiency of demand in the economy at present. One way in which demand can be increased is by giving to people at the lower end of the spectrum some tax concession. That is vital in the coming Budget. I hope that the Government will follow that course in order to get demand moving again and to encourage economic growth.
If we are to increase consumption and investment and turn resources into the balance of trade in the nil growth economy which we have at present, something has to give. I have to accept the logic of the argument that in that situation public expenditure will have to bear its share of the burden. If we say that investment and the balance of trade are
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of prime importance and that consumption must be given a boost, public expenditure must be diminished.
I conclude on one note, which should have been driven home more forcefully yesterday from the Government Front Bench, which is that the White Paper is a negotiable document. The debate within our party has been to consider the manner in which the cuts will be made.
I do not want to elaborate on which cuts should be made, but there is a serious debate in the party about whether it is to be MRCAs or schools, through-deck cruisers or hospitals. That is the logic of the present situation. I welcome the debate, but I am forced to accept the logic of the Government's argument on economic strategy.
8.52 p.m.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton: I congratulate the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West (Mr. Watkinson) on his thoughtful comments in the middle and latter part of his speech. I hope that the message he endeavoured to transmit to the Treasury Bench will be well and truly taken on board, because many of my hon. and right hon. Friends would entirely endorse the views he expressed. I shall take him to task for one or two things that he said at the beginning of his speech relating to cuts in public expenditure. He led the House to believe that the cuts in the Government's White Paper were having an effect now. He talked about the plight of the handicapped, the mentally ill and other deserving sections of the community that we want to help to a greater extent. However the cuts which are included in the White Paper are on projected expenditure, not on current expenditure. If there is a reduction in what local authorities and Government can do at the moment, it is because of inflation and not because of the Government's cuts.
The Government have brought this vote of confidence upon themselves. In two years they have proved themselves to be the worst Government ever in the history of this country. Their priorities are not in the interests of this country as a whole. Many of them may be in the interests of hon. Members below the Gangway and the alien philosophy which they follow. The extension of the Dock Labour Scheme is

733
being debated in Committee—a doctrinaire measure par excellence. Here the Government will put in the hands of a certain minority control over our food supplies and our animal feeding stuffs to such an extent that this minority can hold the majority to ransom.
In the Education Bill the Government are allocating £25 million, not to help nursery education or to replace primary and infant schools which are Victorian and Dickensian, but purely to facilitate party political dogmatic philosophy which will provide not one extra school place. We have had the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act, which, again, is a punitive measure and a palliative to Jack Jones, to try to buy his continued support for what goes under the terms of the social contract. As we all know, the trade unions supply the money with which the Labour Party fights its elections.
Mr. Fernyhough: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Winterton: I will not at this stage. There are a number of other measures which the Government seek to introduce. Many hon. Members have mentioned how we can achieve savings in public expenditure. There is the National Oil Corporation and the activities of the National Enterprise Board. Between £500 million and £800 million could be saved and that money could then be devoted to projects which many Members of the Tribune Group have described to the House. I wonder whether the Members of the Tribune Group will make representations to the Treasury Bench to ensure that the likes of Lord Kearton, who, as head of the National Oil Corporation, is on £80,000 a year, devote some of their money to those deserving projects. The National Enterprise Board spends a great deal of taxpayers' money.
The hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West made the interesting remark that there must be a transfer of resources from the public sector back into the private sector. It was Professor Hayek who quite rightly said in his book "The Road to Serfdom"—this, perhaps, is appropriate in relation to Members of the Tribune Group—that when local and national government of this country take more than 50 per cent. of the gross income in any one year there is a danger of a totalitarian régime of the Right or Left.
734
Inevitably that régime would be very much of the Left so far as this Government is concerned. I remind the House that the Government take 60 per cent. of the gross national product of this country. That is a dangerous level.
My hon. Friend the Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer) was quite right to draw our attention to the fact that possibly last night the Paymaster-General was the only honest man on the Treasury Bench because he quite rightly showed the House that the present trend could not continue. There must be a transfer of resources back to the private sector. More than that, we must draw people out of the Civil Service and the bureaucracy, and get them back into private industry. I shall not criticise those people individually, because many are hard-working, worthy people, but not one is productive. It is only from production that we get profits and it is only out of profitability—I remind the hon. Member for Coventry, South-West (Mrs. Wise) of this—that we can pay for the projects and all those deserving causes which are so close to her heart.
Mrs. Wise: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that so-called private enterprise is distinguished for the extent of its bureaucracy?
Mr. Winterton: I most certainly do not. If the hon. Lady refers to some of the large institutions that were formed by Labour Governments, and unfortunately occasionally assisted and supported by Opposition Members, she may be correct, but it is the small and medium-sized business in this country which produces the profits out of which this country can provide its social, welfare and educational facilities.
I hope that the shock and confusion that has been created for the Treasury Bench and for the Prime Minister on his birthday by the result of the Division last night will bring reality back to this House. I have been a Member of Parliament for only four and a half years—[HON. MEMBERS: "Too long."] Labour Members can say "Too long", but I leave the decision to my constituents. I hope that this House will return to reality and once again realise that sound money is the only way to achieve sound progress.
I do not like referring again to the hon. Member for Gloucestershire, West,

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but how right he was when he said that we cannot continue to borrow into tomorrow. We have borrowed up to the hilt, whether it be from the International Monetary Fund, from the Shah of Iran, or from other sources abroad, or even the hard-pressed taxpayers of Britain. We must earn our way in the world.
I hope that the message that comes out of this debate, which is really upon a motion of censure upon the Government, is that the Government must adopt policies to suit not the rabble below the Gangway but the hard-working majority of people in this country who want to make their own way of life and decide how they spend their money, and not to have the Government and the men in Whitehall, who seem to think that they know best, telling them how to spend their money.
Reality, perhaps, is what will come out of the debate. I hope that the Minister who replies will clearly show to his hon. Friends below the Gangway that the Government know what they are about—although they are not going far enough—and will not be led astray by the meanderings of the Marxists below the Gangway.
Mr. Speaker: Both Front Benches have agreed to delay the winding-up speeches until 9.10 p.m. Perhaps that will be borne in mind.
9.2 p.m.
Mr. John Mendelson: The formula "The hon. Gentleman will not expect me to follow him in the arguments that he has deployed" is not one that I intend to use tonight, because no arguments were deployed and there is nothing to follow. I think that I shall carry both sides of the House on that simple proposition and have their support in addressing myself instead to the main argument of the debate.
Mr. Nicholas Winterton: Intellectual arrogance.
Mr. Mendelson: The discussion so far has indicated and underlined the essential need to maintain a Labour Government in office in order to make possible the implementation and fulfilment of the purposes desired by all Members on the Government side of the House and their
736
supporters throughout the United Kingdom. It has also underlined the fact that there is no alternative for any of those who wish to see these purposes fulfilled in real political and social life. Anyone who has listened to the last three days of debate will know that this is true.
The debate started with a clear admission from the leading spokesman of the Opposition, which was underlined by most Back Bench Opposition speakers, that if the country were to adopt the policies that the Opposition advance, from Front Bench and Back Bench, the consequences would be increased unemployment and an immediate curtailment of the major social services that are benefiting the people of Britain. Of that there can be no doubt. That must be the starting point for every Labour Member and every Labour supporter.
That being so, I do not believe that there can be anything gained for the political life of this country if we engage in the kind of propagandist speeches that so many Opposition Members are apt to make. There has been very little policy advanced so far. I did not expect any policy from the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton), but I listened carefully to the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition. I also listened carefully to former Conservative Ministers. Hardly any policy has been put forward. Therefore, they are completely misguided in any attempt——
Mr. F. A. Burden Mr. F. A. Burden (Gillingham) rose——
Mr. Mendelson: No, I shall not give way. The Opposition are misguided if they believe that their appeals will have any effect on the British people.
It is essential to realise that the constitutional requirement of the present political situation is the affirmation of the Government's standing, but not immediate resignation. We are not in a situation in which, over a period of weeks or months, the House of Commons has been consistently refusing Supply to the Government.
The demands of the Leader of the Opposition and other Opposition Members for immediate resignation are completely beside the point. The right hon. Lady knows very well that she has no

737
case for that demand. All the constitutional authorities—[Interruption.] I hope that Conservative Members will be prepared to listen. After all, we are after the dinner hour. We might just as well listen to each other.
The right hon. Lady will recognise that only the House has the power to refuse Supply over a period and, by virtue of refusing it, to bring the Government to a standstill. If the House had done that over a period, it would be impossible for the Government to govern. On constitutional grounds there is no case for the right hon. Lady to demand the resignation of Her Majesty's Government.
Mr. Amery: The hon. Gentleman says categorically that there is no case. Surely he agrees that as Supply is of the essence of the matter and as we have been debating economic policy for two days, it is questionable, or in the balance, whether there is a case.
Mr. Mendelson: I welcome the right hon. Gentleman's question. I deliberately and categorically say that the authorities make it clear that there is no case on which to base the right hon. Lady's demand.
It is right that the Prime Minister should have tabled the motion today. I have set out the constitutional case, but we must consider the political case, which is only slightly less important. Although there is no constitutional requirement for resignation and, therefore, for the demand for resignation, there is a great political interest for the United Kingdom and the British people. It should be clearly seen at home and abroad that the Government have behind them the confidence of Parliament. That is a powerful reason for having the debate and a vote. That is an equally powerful reason for all Labour Members to give their full backing to Her Majesty's Government when the Division takes place—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] Opposition Members may be as angry as they like. If they expected me to repeat the silly case that they have made, they are to be disappointed. I shall make the case as I see it and they will have to listen for as long as I am on my feet. This powerful and important political case leads to the conclusion I indicated and also to a third relevant argument.
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When the Paymaster-General was winding up last night, I intervened to ask him a simple question concerning the education budget, which had been criticised by hon. Members in all parts of the House, some of whom supported the general proposition of the Government and some of whom were hostile to it. I asked whether the Paymaster-General's assurance about priorities still having to be finally decided was specifically directed at the educational budget, and he assured me that this was so.
All hon. Members who care about the education budget should recall that important fact. Whatever happens in the highways and byways of political disagreement and whatever has happened here this week, all discussion on the White Paper is now the property of Parliament and those who support the Government.
We should not lose any agreement we have reached merely because there has been disagreement on the general purpose and the policy behind it. There is nothing to be gained by, for reasons of political anger and discrimination, losing sight of that fact. It is therefore important that in his reply the Chancellor conveys his message in a spirit that makes such agreement easier.
9.13 p.m.
Sir Geoffrey Howe: Some hon. Members might find it slightly difficult to follow the dialectic of the last speech, but one thing emerges clearly from that speech and, indeed, from the whole debate. It is that the issue we are debating tonight is at the very heart of the rôle of this House and that the Government of this country are drawn from and must depend upon the support they can command in the House.
They have a right to survive only for as long as they can continue to command a majority in this House for their essential policies. Tonight we are debating an issue even narrower than that. The Prime Minister made clear that he is seeking the confidence of the House for the financial and economic policies of the Government—the very same issues that this House has debated and voted upon in the last two days.
In these circumstances, it is not in the remotest degree relevant for the Prime Minister to argue by whom and on what

739
basis he was defeated and by what kind of alliance. He should address himself to the right question—can he and his colleagues in this Administration any longer command the support of the House?
If a Government suffer a major loss of support, it is their clear duty to resign. If they are actually defeated, as this Government were last night, their duty is even plainer: they should resign forthwith.
It is strange to have to look for guidance to the words uttered by Neville Chamberlain in May 1940.
Mr. Ashton: He is a good example!
Sir G. Howe: He is an example which the Prime Minister could do worse than follow. He said:
"it is grave, not because of any personal consideration—because none of us would desire to hold on to office for a moment longer than we retain the confidence of this House—".—[Official Report, 8th May 1940; Vol. 360, c. 1266
That is the standard which the Prime Minister should apply. The question is whether the Prime Minister will live up to that standard. [HON. MEMBERS: "Where is he?"] My hon. Friends ask where he is. Perhaps they will allow me to ask the same question.Last night the Prime Minister did not even have the courage to come and face the House. When he was asked about it today, he gave us the bizarre and disreputable excuse that he was celebrating his own birthday. I do not know whether the celebration is continuing now. Perhaps while he was celebrating his party he had a chance to look at Harpers' Queen for this month, and see his horoscope under Pisces. It reads, happily, as follows:
"as far as your personal and emotional life is concerned, there are no problems which you cannot resolve or overcome. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for your financial affairs, as you will know only too well…there is bound to be some kind of critical situation for you to face and from which there is no escape".
There was no excuse for the Prime Minister's failure to be in the House last night.
I come now to consider the Prime Minister's conduct today. When the Prime Minister was calling upon the
740
House to express its confidence, one might have expected him to give the House an exposition of the case for which he expects that support. But we heard from the Prime Minister about the financial and economic policies of the Government scarcely a word. He had neither the courage nor the confidence even today to advance that case. Can one imagine any previous holder of that high office—Mr. Attlee, for example, or even the one who was unable to hold office, Mr. Gaitskell—or any previous Labour Party leader daring to come along on a motion which asked the House to support the Government and saying not a word about the Government for which he stood?
The Prime Minister launched into an attack upon almost everyone he could find, upon the Conservative Party, on whose support he has been glad to count often enough, and upon his hon. Friends below the Gangway. It is a long time since the Labour Party has behaved in that way.
The real question is what we are being asked to vote for tonight. The hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Mr. Mikardo) made clear that we are not being asked to vote tonight for the manifesto on which the Labour Party was elected. The facts of economic life have forced the Labour Party to move right away from the unrealistic, gravely misleading manifesto on which they went to the people. That document was not only misleading but knowingly misleading and it did great disservice to the cause of democratic Government. If we are not being asked to vote for the manifesto, which is now thrust aside, are we being asked to vote for the same White Paper which the Labour Party declined to support last night—or are we not? Where do the Government stand?
Our view is clear. The White Paper does not go far enough towards solving the country's economic problems, but at least it shows some signs of recognising the urgent reality of our situation. The stark introduction at least spells out something of the truth. The Chancellor of the Exchequer deserves some credit for that.
My hon. Friends are entirely right to say that it is wholly disgraceful for the Prime Minister, having shirked the issue last night, to be absent again now. It is wholly disgraceful but wholly in

741
character. But I give the Chancellor of the Exchequer credit for having got into the White Paper at least some of the truth about our situation. Unfortunately the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not in the end the authority or the support of his colleagues, or even the guts to carry into action the diagnosis he has set out in the White Paper. He succeeded, by getting the words written in there, in achieving the maximum political odium for the minimum economic gain.
But where does the Prime Minister stand on the White Paper? It might be a good thing if the authorities of the House were to investigate the locking arrangements of the Prime Minister's room. He seems to find it unaccountably difficult to escape from it to the Chamber.
Where does the Prime Minister stand on the White Paper? He dwelt in his speech on the past policies of his Government, but there was not a word about their future economic policies. To the extent that he addressed himself to economic matters, he asked the House to believe that there were no real cuts being made at all. [Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. The right hon. and learned Gentleman should be given a better hearing.
Sir G. Howe: Perhaps we can understand why it is, Mr. Speaker, that the Prime Minister had nothing to say even about the introduction to the White Paper. The reason is that even that stark introduction is alien to the nature of the Prime Minister, because at least it is honest.
What, then, is the answer to the question posed by the hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow? He asked a very relevant question when he spoke on the second day of the debate. He said that
"…it would be a wholly salutary lesson if what happens between now and 10.20 p.m. induces the Government to take back the White Paper for another think and to produce a second and improved issue of it."—[Official Report, 10th March 1976; Vol. 907, c. 487.]
Is that what is to happen? The answer to that question is critical.
If hon. Members below the Gangway do not know whether they are voting tonight on the same economic policies as they declined to vote for last night, how can they change their mind? It is all very
742
well huffing and puffing and, if I may use the phrase, sitting on their hands last night, but unless they carry it through with their votes tonight, they will turn out to be nothing better than White Paper tigers.
But the answer to that question is no less important for those who voted for the Government. They know that the White Paper's diagnosis is right, but do they know whether the White Paper's policies still stand? Have concessions been made behind closed doors to Members below the Gangway? Have the Government come to some secret compact as a means for hanging on to the trappings of power, while the real authority has moved elsewhere below the Gangway?
How far can the moderates, who voted for the Government last night, be content with the way in which the centre of gravity in their party has shifted—and shifted visibly—away from them? They once regarded themselves as preventing their party from committing the occasional lunacies which the Left wanted to force upon them. Now the wheel seems to have turned full circle and the Left has put itself in the position where it is able to prevent the occasional sanities which the Right might force upon it.
How much longer are those who supported the Government last night to be expected to go on making sacrifices in the cause of party unity? How much longer are those who sit below the Gangway to go on calling the tune?
Finally, what about the position of the Prime Minister himself? [HON. MEMBERS: "Where is he?"] What about his capacity and the capacity of his party now to have no regard whatsoever for the interests of the nation whom they seek to govern?
The Prime Minister has been 13 years at the head of the Labour Party. Those of us who have watched him from this side of the House have found it difficult to identify his achievements. It is hard, indeed, to identify any achievements which stand to his credit.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Robert Mellish): The Prime Minister has won more elections than the Opposition have won.
Sir G. Howe: The Patronage Secretary has regard for that only. Perhaps the only thing which stands to the Prime Minister's credit is his regard for dramatic inconsistency—over Europe, over industrial relations, over incomes. Many people in the Labour Party, if they were to tell the House the truth, would admit that they take the same view as I do about the minimal nature of his achievements. When one presses them hard and asks "Why do you go on liking the man?", at the end of the day they say "At least he has done one thing—he has held the Labour Party together."
Up to a point and for a time that had some validity. Through U-turn after U-turn, through somersault after somersault, on to high wire and off high wire, with a policy of inertia disguised in Socialist rhetoric, the Prime Minister has succeeded in doing that. Where was this outstanding political trapezeologist last night? Where is he now?
The Prime Minister cannot now even lay claim to the proposition that he has maintained a sense of comradeship in the Labour Party. As my hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow) said, we have seen the atmosphere of mutual distrust grow. The most remarkable feature of the Prime Minister's wholly unremarkable speech came in only three phrases. They were the only three reminiscent of the gems of wit with which he sometimes entertained the House in the past. All three of those phrases were directed to his hon. Friends, so-called, below the Gangway.
Who did the Prime Minister describe as the arsenic in the unholy alliance but his own hon. Friends, so-called? Who are the Marxists he condemned us for being in alliance with? Finally, to use his kindliness and courtesy of phrase, who are the lap dogs? It is not the first time that canine metaphors have been used in the Labour Party. The Patronage Secretary has been unusually vociferous tonight. He may remember that only about nine months ago, after another sad incident such as we saw last night, he said that sometimes people thought that he was a guard dog, but he added
"My experience in the last few months has been that I am no longer that, but regarded only as a pet poodle."
744
That came after two previous occasions on which he—who can blame him?—had struggled to resign from his onerous office. The Prime Minister prevented him on one occasion by pointing out, according to The Times,
"…that unity and continuity within the parliamentary party were now of vital importance, and that he wanted his warning to the rebel MPs carried out to the letter."
Mr. Mellish: So that we can get the record straight, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman now tell us of his experience when he opposed the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) for the leadership of the Conservative Party and how many votes he got?
Sir G. Howe: Even the Patronage Secretary's wit is not up to his standard of last year.
It is worth looking back also to the other part of the canine history of the Labour Party at those brave days when dog licences were issued to the Parliamentary Labour Party by the Prime Minister. Those were the days of headlines such as:
"Threat to dissolve Parliament if duty is not recognised".
This is the description of the Prime Minister's performance:
"As many of his rank and file saw him, he was threatening, sarcastic, contemptuous and despotic."
How is the despot faded today!
"As members of the Government saw him, he was firmly stopping a rot in morale that could be dangerous".
Not much firmness today. We look at the grave original phrases:
"All I say, Mr. Wilson said…is 'Watch it'. Every dog is allowed one bite, but a different view is taken of a dog that goes on biting all the time. If there are doubts that the dog is biting, not because of the dictates of conscience but because he is considered vicious, then things happen to that dog. He may not get his licence renewed when it falls due."
Those were the days. That is the measure of the change that has overtaken the Labour Party.
The Prime Minister is no longer in a position to distribute or award licences to anyone, even to lap dogs. Even the Prime Minister—this is a sad day—is licensed—by the Tribune Group and no one else. In those circumstances, Heaven

745
help the country. The Prime Minister and his colleagues certainly do not deserve the confidence of this House.
Fortunately, the nation will not have to endure their presence much longer. After last night's vote, things can never be the same for the Prime Minister and this lame duck Administration. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Farnham (Mr. Macmillan) pointed out, the unholy alliance that is the Labour Party is falling apart at the seams, and not before time.
At the heart of our constitutional practice is the principle that Her Majesty's Government consists of an Administration that is able to command the support of the majority of this House. Last night's vote made it plain beyond doubt that the Prime Minister and his colleagues are no longer in a position to do that. Last night this Administration was placed under suspended sentence of death. Tonight is the night to put them out of their misery.
9.33 p.m.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Denis Healey): I do not think that the House is under any illusion but that the vote at 10 o'clock is a vote of confidence in the financial and economic policies of Her Majesty's Government. The circumstances which make this vote necessary inevitably surround the debate with intense political excitement, and the flames have been fanned by party hopes and fears.
I start by responding to the Leader of the Liberal Party and by trying to identify at least some areas about which I hope we can agree. First, the economic problems facing the United Kingdom at this time are the most serious and difficult it has faced since the war. We have at the same time, like all other industrial countries, unemployment without precedent since the war, allied with inflation without precedent since the war. All countries in the industrial world face this combination of problems because of the explosion in oil prices and the fact that the world is faced by the biggest recession since the 1930s.
Our inflation rate is still a good deal higher than that of most other countries. Our unemployment rate is still lower than many. We entered the oil crisis with
746
an economy that was far weaker than that of any other industrial country in the world. Growth in Britain came to a halt in the second half of 1973 and fell heavily in January and February 1974, owing to the three-day working week. The balance of payments was running at an appalling deficit in 1973 and the Governor of the Bank of England, speaking on 15th January 1974, well before the General Election, used these words:
"Last year the current account showed a large deficit which, this year, will be further greatly increased by the rise in the price of oil.…But even before that factor became important, our balance of payments deficit on current account in the last quarter of the year"—
1973—
"was running at a rate equivalent to 4 per cent. of our national product"—
—that is, a rate of about £4,000 million a year.
That was the situation which faced this Government when they took office.
Mr. William Whitelaw: The Chancellor of the Exchequer is describing the Government's position. Will he please explain where is the Leader of this Government? His whole position as Leader and Prime Minister of this country is at risk tonight, yet he does not have the courtesy to come to the House. Where is he? If there is a good reason why he is not here, let us be told. Where is he?
Hon. Members: Where is he?
Mr. Healey: I well understand——
Hon. Members: "Happy birthday to you".
Mr. Speaker: Order. If hon. Members are not silent, they will never know the answer. Music had better be confined to other places.
Mr. Healey: I well understand why the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) is reluctant to face the facts, but if, as he has pretended, or rather his right hon. Friend pretends he—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. The right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) was heard in reasonable silence—not absolute silence but reasonable silence—and the Chancellor of the

747
Exchequer is entitled to be heard in the same way.
Mr. Cormack: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Throughout the winding-up speeches, the Leader of the Opposition has been on the Front Bench. It is a gross insult to the House that the Prime Minister is not here.
Mr. Mellish Mr. Mellish rose——
Mr. John Nott: Go and get him.
Mr. Speaker: Order. Everyone knows that I am not responsible for who is in the Chamber.
Mr. Healey: The hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Nott) is obviously tired. Can any arrangement be made for him to lie down before he falls down?
Mr. Speaker: Order. It is quite clear that the House is in danger of bringing disgrace upon itself if hon. Members will—[Interruption.] Order. I have but one request. If hon. Members will contain themselves until 10 o'clock I shall be grateful.
Mr. Healey: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was explaining the situation of the economic legacy of an economy distorted worse than our economy had ever been in our history. Immediately we took office we faced an increase in our balance of payments burden of £2,500 million imposed by the increase in the price of oil, which cut our real national income by 5 per cent. We survived, and during our first year in office we carried out a large part of the social programme on which we had been elected.
We introduced the biggest increase in pensions this country had ever seen. We introduced the first increase in family allowances since 1968, benefits to the disabled, allowances for invalid care, food subsidies, the largest increase in council housing for nearly 10 years and the capital transfer tax. During that same period we started constructing new tools for our industrial policy in the National Enterprise Board, planning agreements and the Scottish and Welsh Development Agencies. We doubled the regional employment premium, which the previous Government had undertaken to phase out. Because we did these things, and only because we did these things, we
748
established a relationship with the British trade union movement which has made this Government the envy of every Government all over the world.
The £6 pay limit introduced last July, against the votes of the Conservative Opposition, which voted to refuse a Second Reading to the necessary legislation and had not the courage to vote at all on the main Question, has transformed this country's economic prospects and has achieved unanimous support among the working people of this country and from the employers of this country. The industrial policy we introduced at the Chequers meeting now also has solid support from both sides of industry.
Now the construction of a new relationship between the British Government, the working people and the employers of this country, and the progressive elimination of an arm's-length relationship which more than anything has been responsible for our inferior economic performance since the Second World War, has inevitably required compromise and sacrifice from all concerned. It has put a real strain on the loyalties of the trade union movement and of the business community. But this new relationship has been established, and on that relationship depends the future of this country's economy. As a result of the new relationship between the Government and people of this country, in the last nine months inflation has been cut by well over half what it was a year ago. The balance of payments deficit, which, despite the increase in oil prices in 1974, we managed to hold to the level we inherited from the Conservative Government, was cut by more than half last year.
Sir G. Howe: Will the Chancellor tell the House how he conceivably describes as the envy of the world an economy in which inflation is now running at three times the rate of 8·4 per cent. on which he secured election in October 1974?
Mr. Healey: The right hon. and learned Gentleman was rightly described in a Conservative newspaper yesterday as a sheep in a rage. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] The question, to which he has finally nerved himself to ask, I answer as follows: France, the United States, Canada and Holland—countries which are facing problems of increasing wage costs—are now seeking to solve those problems by the methods already adopted

749
by this Government, and adopted with success against the continued opposition of the Conservative Party. Although the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher), in this annual spasm of courtship of the trade union movement to which the party is used, has attempted to reverse the policy which she put to this House nine months ago, her medieval and metallic charms as an iron maiden are unlikely to seduce the trade union movement, because every policy she has sponsored from the Opposition Dispatch Box since she became Leader of the Conservative Party has been calculated to provoke the maximum hostility from the working people of this country.
When the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East——[An hon. Member: "What about spending?"] When the right hon. Lady and the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) were spending themselves silly—we heard something of this from Lord Barber in the House of Lords only yesterday—the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East was driving the Industrial Relations Act through this House, which provoked the Director-General of the CBI and soured and sullied industrial relations and which the right hon. Lady has now decided to abandon because she recognises that it was a disaster to industrial relations. The policies put forward by the Opposition two days ago of cuts of £4,000 million this year concentrated on subsidies, which would raise the cost of living by 5 per cent., and transfer benefits which would punish the sick and the unemployed.
Mr. Nicholas Ridley: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Henley: The policies put forward then are a recipe for revolution in this country.
Mr. Ridley Mr. Ridley rose——
Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman knows that if the Chancellor does not give way, he must resume his seat.
Mr. Healey: The reason why we are having this debate today is that 37 of my hon. Friends thought it right last night on this issue to contrive a situation in which they knew that the Conservative Party would defeat the Government on
750
public expenditure. They chose the day before two by-elections, in order to contrive this defeat of the Government. [Hon. Members: "Oh."] They chose a moment when sterling was under greater pressure than it has known for many months.
We all know the strong and sincere feelings which inspired many of my hon. Friends but let me say that the feelings of those of us who find it necessary to level off public spending programmes for some years after next year were no less genuine and sincere than theirs. So, indeed, were the feelings of those like my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson), who has never hesitated to express his views in the House but has never conspired with the Conservative Opposition to defeat a Labour Government.
All I say to those of my hon. Friends who thought it right to behave in that way yesterday is this: they had every right to share the credit won by this Government for successes but only—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order.
Mr. Graham Page: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. If the right hon. Gentleman will not address the House, but only a quarter of it, will he at least address it through you, Mr. Speaker?
Mr. Speaker: Order. I shall stand a far better chance of hearing the Chancellor if hon. Members are quiet.
Mr. Healey: I know the strength of the feelings which inspired my hon. Friends, but I ask them to recognise that millions of ordinary men and women in the trade union movement in this country have made sacrifices for their country and for their Government in the past 12 months in order to give this country a chance to defeat inflation and to improve its industrial performance.
The policies which are followed by the Government at present in the financial and economic area have the public support of the leaders of the trade union movement. They have been supported in practice at the cost of real personal financial sacrifice by 5 million working men and women who have settled within the

751
£5 pay limit—I mean the £6 pay limit—in the last nine months.
All of these men and women have shown loyalty to the Labour Government. They expect the Members of the Parliamentary Labour Party to show the same loyalty, because they know that if this Government were to throw away the gains made in the past 12 and 24 months by so much sacrifice and through so many painful and difficult decisions, they would be betraying the faith placed in them by the movement which put them into power.
I hope that what happened last night will be a lesson to the whole of our movement. I make no apology for speaking now primarily to my hon. Friends. I think that those of my hon. Friends who thought it right to take the action that they did last night must know that they were falsifying the hopes of those in the trade union movement who have made sacrifices to help the Government and the country in the last few years. We have evidence of that multiplying day after day in speeches by trade union leaders. There was Mr. Hugh Scanlon on Monday and Mr. Joe Gormley this afternoon.
I must tell my hon. Friends who thought it right to take that action yesterday that to behave in such a way on another occasion will be to threaten surrender to the right hon. Lady the Member for Finchley. To surrender to her would be to betray the whole of our Labour movement to its enemies. If they really believe that the party they support and the trade union movement from which so many of them come will be better served by a Government under her leadership than by the present Government, they
must vote for her tonight or once more contrive her success as they did last night.
If, however, they believe, as I am certain they do——
Mr. Norman Buchan Mr. Norman Buchan (Renfrewshire, West) rose——
Hon. Members: Give way.
Mr. Healey: If they believe——
Mr. Buchan Mr. Buchan rose——
Mr. Speaker: Order. We can have only one hon. Member speaking at a time.
Mr. Healey: If they believe that nothing can damage this movement more than a change of Government at this time, they must give the same loyalty to the Government as it receives from the trade union movement and the overwhelming majority of members of the party in the country.
No Government can be a Government if they surrender to blackmail. We cannot and will not surrender in this way. I believe that the events of the last 24 hours are and must remain a lesson for all of us, and I ask all who fear for the welfare of this country, all who wish to protect and extend the benefits attained by our sacrifices in the last two years, to vote for the Government tonight and to maintain their support on future occasions of this nature.
Question put, That this House do now adjourn:—
The House divided: Ayes 280, Noes 297.

Division No. 85.]

AYES

[10.0 p.m.

Adley, Robert

Boscawen, Hon Robert

Clark, William (Croydon S)

Aitken, Jonathan

Bottomley, Peter

Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

Alison, Michael

Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown)

Clegg, Walter

Amery, Rt Hon Julian

Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent)

Cockcroft, John

Arnold, Tom

Braine, Sir Bernard

Cooke, Robert (Bristol W)

Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne)

Brittan, Leon

Cope, John

Awdry, Daniel

Brocklebank-Fowler, C.

Cordle, John H.

Bain, Mrs Margaret

Brotherton, Michael

Cormack, Patrick

Baker, Kenneth

Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

Corrie, John

Banks, Robert

Bryan, Sir Paul

Costain, A. P.

Beith, A. J.

Buchanan-Smith, Alick

Crawford, Douglas

Bell, Ronald

Buck, Antony

Critchley, Julian

Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay)

Budgen, Nick

Crowder, F. P.

Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham)

Bulmer, Esmond

Davies, Rt Hon J. (Knutsford)

Benyon, W.

Burden, F. A.

Dean, Paul (N Somerset)

Berry, Hon Anthony

Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

Dodsworth, Geoffrey

Bitten, John

Carlisle, Mark

Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

Biggs-Davison, John

Chalker, Mrs Lynda

Drayson, Burnaby

Blaker, Peter

Churchill, W. S.

du Cann, Rt Hon Edward

Body, Richard

Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton)

Durant, Tony

Eden, Rt Hon Sir John

King, Evelyn (South Dorset)

Ridley, Hon Nicholas

Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

King, Tom (Bridgwater)

Ridsdale, Julian

Elliott, Sir William

Kitson, Sir Timothy

Rifkind, Malcolm

Emery, Peter

Knox, David

Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey

Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen)

Lamont, Norman

Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)

Eyre, Reginald

Lane, David

Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

Fairbairn, Nicholas

Langford-Holt, Sir John

Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

Fairgrieve, Russell

Latham, Michael (Melton)

Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

Farr, John

Lawrence, Ivan

Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

Fell, Anthony

Lawson, Nigel

Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire)

Finsberg, Geoffrey

Lester, Jim (Beeston)

Royle, Sir Anthony

Fisher, Sir Nigel

Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

Sainsbury, Tim

Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

Lloyd, Ian

St. John-Stevas, Norman

Fookes, Miss Janet

Loverldge, John

Scott, Nicholas

Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd)

Luce, Richard

Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)

Fox, Marcus

McAdden, Sir Stephen

Shelton, William (Streatham)

Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St)

MacCormick, lain

Shepherd, Colin

Freud, Clement

McCrindle, Robert

Shersby, Michael

Fry, Peter

Macfarlane, Neil

Silvester, Fred

Galbraith, Hon T. G. D.

MacGregor, John

Sims, Roger

Gardiner, George (Reigate)

Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham)

Sinclair, Sir George

Gardner, Edward (S Fylde)

McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury)

Skeet, T. H. H.

Gllmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham)

McNair-Wllson, P. (New Forest)

Smith, Dudley (Warwick)

Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

Madel, David

Speed, Keith

Glyn, Dr Alan

Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

Spence, John

Godber, Rt Hon Joseph

Marten, Nell

Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)

Goodhart, Philip

Mates, Michael

Sproat, lain

Goodhew, Victor

Mather, Carol

Stainton, Keith

Goodlad, Alastair

Maude, Angus

Stanbrook, Ivor

Gorst, John

Maudling, Rt Hon Reginald

Stanley, John

Gow, Ian (Eastbourne)

Mawby, Ray

Steel, David (Roxburgh)

Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry)

Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

Sleen, Anthony (Wavertree)

Grant, Anthony (Harrow C)

Mayhew, Patrick

Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)

Gray, Hamish

Meyer, Sir Anthony

Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)

Grimond, Rt Hon J.

Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove)

Stokes, John

Grist, Ian

Mills, Peter

Stradling Thomas, J.

Grylls, Michael

Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

Tapsell, Peter

Hall, Sir John

Moate, Roger

Taylor, R. (Croydon NW)

Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

Monro, Hector

Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)

Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

Montgomery, Fergus

Tebbit, Norman

Hampson, Dr Keith

Moore, John (Croydon C)

Temple-Morris, Peter

Hannam, John

More, Jasper (Ludlow)

Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret

Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye)

Morgan, Geraint

Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss

Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral

Thomas, Rt Hon P. (Hendon S)

Hastings, Stephen

Morris, Michael (Northampton S)

Thompson, George

Havers, Sir Michael

Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)

Hawkins, Paul

Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester)

Townsend, Cyril D.

Hayhoe, Barney

Mudd, David

Trotter, Neville

Heath, Rt Hon Edward

Neave, Airey

Tugendhat, Christopher

Henderson, Douglas

Nelson, Anthony

van Straubenzee, W. R.

Heseltine, Michael

Neubert, Michael

Vaughan, Dr Gerard

Hicks, Robert

Newton, Tony

Viggers, Peter

Higgins, Terence L.

Nott, John

Wainwright, Richard (Coine V)

Holland, Philip

Onslow, Cranley

Wakeham, John

Hooson, Emlyn

Oppenheim, Mrs Sally

Walder, David (Clitheroe)

Hordern, Peter

Page, John (Harrow West)

Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester)

Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)

Wall, Patrlck

Howell, Geraint (Cardigan)

Paisley, Rev Ian

Walters, Dennis

Hunt, John

Pardoe, John

Warren, Kenneth

Hurd, Douglas

Pattle, Geoffrey

Watt, Hamish

Hutchison, Michael Clark

Penhaligon, David

Weatherlll, Bernard

Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)

Percival, Ian

Wells, John

James, David

Peyton, Rt Hon John

Welsh, Andrew

Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd & W'df'd)

Pink, R. Bonner

Whitelaw, Rt Hon William

Jessel, Toby

Price, David (Eastleigh)

Wiggin, Jerry

Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead)

Prior, Rt Hon James

Wigley, Dafydd

Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

Pym, Rt Hon Francis

Willson, Gordon (Dundee E)

Jones, Arthur (Daventry)

Raison, Timothy

Wood, Rt Hon Richard

Jopling, Michael

Rathbone, Tim

Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton)

Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith

Rawlinson, Rt Hon Sir Peter

Younger, Hon George

Kaberry, Sir Donald

Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal)

Kershaw, Anthony

Rees-Davies, W. R.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

Kilfedder, James

Reid, George

Mr. Spencer Le Marchant and

Kimball, Marcus

Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts)

Mr. Cecil Parkinson

Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex)

NOTES

Abse, Leo

Ashton, Joe

Bean, R. E.

Allaun, Frank

Atkins, Ronald (Preston N)

Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood

Anderson, Donald

Atkinson, Norman

Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N)

Archer, Peter

Bagier, Gordon A. T.

Bidwell, Sydney

Armstrong, Ernest

Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood)

Bishop, E. S.

Ashley, Jack

Bates, Alf

Blenkinsop, Arthur

754

755

Boardman, H.

Grant, George (Morpeth)

Moorman, Eric

Booth, Rt Hon Albert

Grant, John (Islington C)

Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur

Grocott, Bruce

Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

Boyden, James (Bish Auck)

Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

Bradley, Tom

Hardy, Peter

Moyle, Roland

Bray, Dr Jeremy

Harper, Joseph

Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

Broughton, Sir Alfred

Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King

Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy

Newens, Stanley

Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)

Hayman, Mrs Helene

Noble, Mike

Brown, Ronald (Hackney S)

Healey, Rt Hon Denis

Oakes, Gordon

Buchan, Norman

Heller, Eric S.

Ogden, Eric

Buchanan, Richard

Hooley, Frank

O'Halloran, Michael

Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green)

Horam, John

O'Malley, Rt Hon Brian

Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE)

Howell, Rt Hon Denis

Orbach, Maurice

Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)

Hoyle, Doug (Nelson)

Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

Campbell, Ian

Huckfield, Les

Ovenden, John

Canavan, Dennis

Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey)

Owen, Dr David

Cant, R. B.

Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

Padley, Walter

Car mi cha el, Neil

Hughes, Roy (Newport)

Palmer, Arthur

Carter, Ray

Hunter, Adam

Park, George

Carter-Jones, Lewis

Irvine, Rt Hon Sir A. (Edge Hill)

Parker, John

Cartwright. John

Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford)

Parry, Robert

Castle, Rt Hon Barbara

Jackson, Colin (Brighouse)

Pavitt, Laurie

Clemitson, Ivor

Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln)

Peart, Rt Hon Fred

Cocks, Michael (Bristol S)

Janner, Greville

Perry, Ernest

Cohen, Stanley

Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

Phipps, Dr Colin

Coleman, Donald

Jeger, Mrs Lena

Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

Colquhoun, Ms Maureen

Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

Price, C. (Lewisham W)

Concannon, J. D.

Jenkins, Rt Hon Roy (Stechford)

Price, William (Rugby)

Conlan, Bernard

John, Brynmor

Radice, Giles

Cook, Robin F. (Edin C)

Johnson, James (Hull West)

Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S)

Corbett, Robin

Johnson, Walter (Derby S)

Richardson, Miss Jo

Cox, Thomas (Tooting)

Jones, Alec (Rhondda)

Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

Craigen, J. M. (Maryhill)

Jones, Barry (East Flint)

Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)

Crawshaw, Richard

Jones, Dan (Burnley)

Robertson, John (Paisley)

Cronin, John

Judd, Frank

Robinson, Geoffrey

Crosiand, Rt Hon Anthony

Kaufman, Gerald

Roderick, Caerwyn

Cryer, Bob

Kelley, Richard

Rodgers, George (Chorley)

Cunningham, G. (Islington S)

Kerr, Russell

Rodgers, William (Stockton)

Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh)

Kilroy-Silk, Robert

Rooker, J. W.

Davidson, Arthur

Kinnock, Nell

Roper, John

Davies, Bryan (Enfield N)

Lambie, David

Rose, Paul B.

Davies, Denzil (Llanelli)

Lamborn, Harry

Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock)

Davies, Ifor (Gower)

Lamond, James

Rowlands, Ted

Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)

Latham, Arthur (Paddlngton)

Sandelson, Neville

Deakins, Eric

Leadbltter, Ted

Sedgemore, Brian

Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

Lee, John

Selby, Harry

Delargy, Hugh

Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)

Shaw, Arnold (llford South)

Dell, Rt Hon Edmund

Lever, Rt Hon Harold

Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne)

Dempsey, James

Lewis, Arthur (Newham N)

Shore, Rt Hon Peter

Doig, Peter

Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

Short, Rt Hon E. (Newcastle C)

Dormand, J. D.

Lipton, Marcus

Short, Mrs Renee (Wolv NE)

Douglas-Mann, Bruce

Litterick, Tom

Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)

Duffy, A. E. P.

Loyden, Eddie

Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Du)wlch)

Dunnet, Jack

Luard, Evan

Sillars, James

Eadie, Alex

Lyon, Alexander (York)

Silverman, Julius

Edge, Geoff

Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)

Skinner, Dennis

Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE)

Mabon, Dr J. Dickson

Small, William

Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun)

McCartney, Hugh

Smith, John (N Lanarkshire)

English, Michael

McElhone, Frank

Snaps, Peter

Ennals, David

MacFarquhar, Roderick

Spearing, Nigel

Evans, Fred (Caerphilly)

McGuire, Michael (Ince)

Spriggs, Leslie

Evans, loan (Abordare)

Mackenzie, Gregor

Stallard, A. W.

Ewing, Harry (Stirling)

Mackintosh, John P.

Stoddart, David

Fernyhough, Rt Hon E.

Maclennan, Robert

Stonehouse, Rt Hon John

Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)

Stolt, Roger

Fitt, Gerard (Belfast W)

Me Namara, Kevin

Strang, Gavin

Flannery, Martin

Madden, Max

Strauss, Rt Hon G. R.

Fletcher, Raymond (llkeston)

Magee, Bryan

Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley

Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

Maguire, Frank (Fermanagh)

Swain, Thomas

Foot, Rt Hon Michael

Mahon, Simon

Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

Ford, Ben

Mallalleu, J. P. W.

Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

Forrester, John

Marks, Kenneth

Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)

Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin)

Marquand, David

Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)

Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd)

Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

Thorne, Stan (Preston South)

Freeson, Reginald

Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

Tierney, Sydney

Garrett, John (Norwich S)

Mason, Rt Hon Roy

Tinn, James

Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)

Maynard, Miss Joan

Tomlinson, John

George, Bruce

Meacher, Michael

Torney, Tom

Gilbert, Dr John

Mellish, Rt Hon Robert

Tuck, Raphael

Ginsburg, David

Mendelson, John

Urwin, T. W.

Golding, John

Millan, Bruce

Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.

Gould, Bryan

Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)

Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)

Gourlay, Harry

Miller, Mrs Millie (llford N)

Waiden, Brian (B'ham, L'dyw'd)

Graham, Ted

Molloy, William

Walker, Harold (Doncatler)

756

757

Walker, Terry (Kingswood)

Whitlock, William

Woodall, Alec

Ward, Michael

Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

Woof, Robert

Watkins, David

Williams, Alan (Swansea W)

Wrigglesworth, Ian

Watkinson, John

Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)

Young, David (Bolton E)

Weetch, Ken

Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford)

Weitzman, David

Williams, Sir Thomas

TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

Wellbeloved, James

Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

Mr. Tom Pendry and

White, Frank R. (Bury)

Wilson, Rt Hon H. (Huyton)

Mr. James A. Dunr

White, James (Pollok)

Wilson, William (Coventry SE)

Whitehead, Phillip

Wise, Mrs Audrey

Question accordingly negatived.

DEVELOPMENT LAND TAX BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
To be read a Second time tomorrow.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  NORTHERN IRELAND (DEPART- MENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT)
  Motion made and Question proposed,
  That the Department of Housing, Local Government and Planning (Dissolution) (Northern Ireland) Order 1976, a draft of which was laid before this House on 24th February, be approved.—[Mr. Concannon.]
  10.18 p.m.
  Mr. John Biggs-Davison: I hope that it is in order to ask the Under-Secretary some questions about the proposed amalgamation of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Planning and the Department of the Environment, which will recreate the old Ministry of Development under the title Department of the Environment.
  I understand that a second Department was brought into being largely in order to provide proper representation on the old Executive, so it is understandable that the Government should have introduced the Order tonight.
  Is the Under-Secretary confident that, in creating this larger unit, efficiency will be improved and there will be good economy? There have been examples of departmental amalgamations which have spawned establishments and expenditure exceeding the sum of the establishments and expenditure of the previous separate Departments. This happened when the three Service Departments, and the old Ministry of Defence were merged into the Ministry of Defence. What is sometimes called streamlining has often been of a Parkinsonian order. Can the Minister assure us that there will be no increase in public expenditure as a result of this Order?
  10.20 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. J. D. Concannon): I thought it was for the convenience of the House if I moved the Order formally. If it was not, I apologise.
  760
  The administrative machinery in Northern Ireland is kept under constant review to ensure the most efficient use of resources, and it is as part of that continuing review that the Order is before the House tonight.
  There is an inter-relationship in the functions carried out by both Departments in housing, water, sewerage, planning, and so on. There will be savings, but they will be relatively small both in manpower and finance. We are looking for greater efficiency and the streamlining of the administration.
  I commend the Order to the House.
  Question put and agreed to.

  NORTHERN IRELAND (INDUSTRIAL AND PROVIDENT SOCIETIES)
  Resolved,
  That the Industrial and Provident Societies (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Order 1976, a draft of which was laid before this House on 10th February, be approved.—[Mr. Cancannon.]

  NORTHERN IRELAND (MEMBERS' PENSIONS)
  10.20 p.m.
  The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Roland Moyle): I beg to move,
  That the Members' Pensions (Northern Ireland) Order 1976, a draft of which was laid before this House on 24th February, be approved.
  The Order relates entirely to the pension position of Members of the Northern Ireland House of Commons which ceased to exist in 1972 and does not relate to the pension position of Members of the Assembly. I should be out of order if I discussed the pension position of the latter group.
  The purpose of the Order is to make improvements in the contributory pension scheme for former Members of the Northern Ireland House of Commons which is provided for in the Ministerial Salaries and Members' Pensions Act (Northern Ireland) 1965; that scheme is similar to the scheme which applied to Members of this House until 1972.

  761
  The 1965 scheme for Members of this House which existed until 1972 was radically modified by the Parliamentary and Other Pensions Act 1972, which improved our pension conditions, and parallel action was to have been taken in Northern Ireland but was not taken at the time of the Westminster Act because of the constitutional uncertainties which at that time surrounded the abolition of the Parliament of Northern Ireland. It is now proposed that the scheme for former Members of Parliament of Northern Ireland should be improved in certain respects to accord with the improvements which were made in the pension scheme for this House in 1972 for people ceasing to be Members of the Northern Ireland Parliament after 1st January 1972, which was also the effective date for corresponding improvements introduced in this House.
  The Order will give effect to the proposals I have just described by amending the Ministerial Salaries and Members' Pension Act (Northern Ireland) 1965. Article I of the Order provides that the Order shall come into operation on the seventh day after it is made, and Article 2 applies the Interpretation Act (Northern Ireland) to its provisions.
  Under Section 5 of the Northern Ireland Pensions Act 1965 certain fixed sums were paid annually into the Members' contributory pension fund from moneys provided by Parliament. Article 3(1) of the Order provides instead for the annual payment into the fund out of moneys appropriated by Measure of an amount recommended by an actuary. This is necessary because there will be no further contributions from Members of the Northern Ireland Parliament to the pension fund and also because increased burdens will be placed on the pension fund as a result of improvements which are made by subsequent Articles in the Order. There are some consequential amendments which are introduced by Article 3(2).
  Article 4 reduces the qualifying period for pension from 10 years' to four years' reckonable service. This change will give entitlement to pension at the age of 65 to a number of former Members who did not become Members of the Assembly.
  Article 5 gives former Members the right to receive an actuarily reduced pen-
  762
  sion at the age of 60 instead of waiting until the age of 65.
  Article 6 precludes payment of a pension during any period when the person concerned was a Member of the Assembly or a Member of the Convention or a candidate for an election to either of them.
  Finally, Article 7 gives former Members who have not or will not become entitled to a Member's pension the right to receive a refund of contributions immediately, if they so choose, instead of having to wait for varying periods as provided by Section 10(1)(b) of the originating Act.
  I commend the Order to the House.
  10.25 p.m.
  Mr. John Biggs-Davison: The hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) and the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley), two former Members of the House of Commons at Stormont, are in the House tonight, and the presentation of the Order enables me to salute the memory of that House. It was imperfect, but is this House of Commons without blemish? It served Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom well through half a century of civil war, world war and change.
  The House of Commons at Stormont and the Senate were in fact displayed as a model of the Westminster parliamentary system to studious visitors from branches of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association in newer and less sophisticated legislatures across the sea.
  The passing was mourned not only by Unionists but by a number of nationalists on both sides of the Irish border. Therefore, it is in no carping spirit that I ask the Minister of State how many are the beneficiaries and what will be the cost. Has the Order been introduced now in response to representations? Is there any particular reason why this moment has been chosen?
  The Order was introduced first in another place. There, as the Minister of State knows, the noble Lord, Lord Shin-well, seized the opportunity of pleading for another deserving class of parliamentarians. I mean those who retired from

  763
  this House too early to benefit from the pensions change of 1965.
  But I must not stray from the Order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You would at once call me to account if I sought to do that. But the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, in replying to the debate in the other place, promised to convey his noble Friend's view
  "to the correct sources in Government".—[[Official Report, House of Lords, 9th March 1976; Vol. 368, col. 1231.]
  as he put it. I hope we shall have a statement from Her Majesty's Government before long, because these few former colleagues of ours in this House lie a little on our conscience.
  10.28 p.m.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman has said. I do not need to declare an interest, because I was not long enough in the House of Commons to benefit under this Order. I should, however, like to pay tribute to a former Member of the Stormont House of Commons. I refer to Mr. Vivian Simpson, who was very assiduous in his work in seeking to press the interests of former Members of the House of Commons at Stormont. I think that part of the representation that has gone into the Order came from Mr. Simpson.
  I have a number of questions to ask the Minister. He said that he would not be dealing with a pension scheme for the Assembly, as that did not come into it. But could he explain to us Article 6 of the Order, which talks about a person being a Member of the Assembly, and says that
  "for the purposes of this subsection a person who ceases to be a member of the Assembly in consequence of the dissolution of the Assembly (other than the dissolution under the Northern Ireland Assembly (Dissolution) Order 1975",
  and so on?
  Is the Minister maintaining in this Order that the Assembly is still in existence as such, or is he saying that the former Members of the Assembly before it was dissolved still retain their place in the terms of the Order, as Members of the Assembly?
  The new paragraph (3) set out in Article 6 says that
  764
  "A pension under this section shall continue for the life of the person to whom is it payable",
  but there are certain exceptions, and these are listed. Perhaps the Minister could help us on that point. Does this also apply to those who were Ministers in the former House of Commons, or do they come under a separate pension scheme?
  Can the Minister tell us the number of people who will benefit under this scheme? I believe that the norm is a reduction from 10 years' reckonable service to four years. Can the Minister tell us the number of people who would be eligible under this scheme? Could the hon. Gentleman tell us how many former Ministers will be receiving a different type of pension who will not be eligible under this scheme? Is he to lay another Order with regard to the pensions of those who served briefly in the Assembly, or will they get back the money deducted from their salaries towards a pension?
  The hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mr. Biggs-Davison) paid tribute to the Stormont Parliament, but it was the Conservative Party which took the initiative and destroyed that Parliament. I know that he was in conflict with the then Government, and I pay full tribute to him for that, but we must put it on record that the destruction of the Stormont Parliament came from a Conservative Government.
  10.31 p.m.
  Mr. Gerard Fitt: I wonder whether this will be the last word in the minds of many people about the unlamented Stormont Parliament. The hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mr. Biggs-Davison) tried to create the impression that Stormont had the support and good will of the majority of people in Northern Ireland. That was not so. We have seen by the events which began to happen in 1969 that that Parliament was ruling without consensus.
  Mr. Biggs-Davison: Does the hon. Gentleman dissent from the judgment of Professor Richard Rose that only 12 per cent. of the population of Northern Ireland were disaffected from the old constitution?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Myer Galpern): Order. We are discussing pensions, not the history of Stormont.
  Mr. Fitt: I have no intention of going into it at great length, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but I remind the hon. Member for Epping Forest that Professor Rose's intellectual work on the situation was called "Government without Consensus". That is why Stormont is no longer in existence.
  We can express regret for those Members of the old Stormont Parliament who were elected in 1969 and were there until Stormont was abolished by the Conservative Government. Many people who were in that Parliament for years leading up to the events of 1969 perhaps had a more peaceful time in the representation of their constituencies, but the many politicians elected in 1969, at the beginning of the present troubles, had only three years of service, and now they are not to be beneficiaries under this Order.
  How many Members of the old Stomont Parliament will qualify for pension under this Order? What will the rate of pension be? I understand that it will be reckonable on the number of years of service. I think that a statutory amount was taken off every Member, irrespective of whether he was married or single or what his tax coding was. Can my hon. Friend indicate what might be payable to those Members for the years 1969 to 1972? This is of interest to the former Members of the old Stormont Parliament, not restricted exclusively to what was then known as the Opposition side. Many people are involved.
  10.32 p.m.
  Mr. Moyle: I have been asked a number of questions. To the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mr. Biggs-Davison) I say that it was always the intention to bring the Stormont Parliament pension scheme into line with the improvements made to the pension scheme in this House, although different quantums were involved. There has been some delay because of the constitutional confusions in Northern Ireland. In the interim period, naturally, there was some anxiety about what would happen. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State received at least one deputation from Stormont Members of Parliament. This new scheme will ensure that 46 Members of the Stormont Parliament are covered. The annual cost, certainly at commencement, will be £8,000.
  766
  The hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) and my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) drew attention to Article 6 of the Order. The need for this arises because there is no fixed retirement age for Members of the Stormont Parliament. It was therefore possible, in theory, for Members to retire, receive pensions, then decide to stand again for Parliament. If re-elected it would be wrong in principle for them to draw salary and pension at one and the same time. Therefore the pension was suspended when they were re-elected.
  The Stormont Parliament and the pension scheme did not last long enough together for this event to take place. Since then we have had the Assembly and the Convention. The position is similar with regard to the Assembly and Convention. Someone who retired, possibly from the Stormont Parliament, started to draw a pension and was then elected to the Assembly or Convention would have had his pension suspended during the period of service in either of those bodies. It is necessary to make that clear by the introduction of the provisions of Article 6.
  Ministers are covered by the pension scheme. I cannot say how many are covered at the moment. The question of the pensions of Assembly Members is under review. No decisions have yet been taken. The pension of each person must vary according to the length of contributory and reckonable service. The average pension for Stormont Members would be £664 a year. There are, I think, two widows, and they would get an average of £291 a year.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That the Members' Pensions (Northern Ireland) Order 1976, a draft of which was laid before this House on 24th February, be approved.

  NORTHERN IRELAND (APPROPRIATION)
  10.33 p.m.
  The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Roland Moyle): I beg to move,
  That the Appropriation (Northern Ireland) Order 1976, a draft of which was laid before this House on 25th February, be approved.

  767
  This Order is being made under paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 of the Northern Ireland Act, 1974 and is one of an annual cycle of orders which make available the money required for the services which are administered by the Northern Ireland Departments. These administer what were known as "transferred" services under the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973.
  As we are at the beginning of a new phase of direct rule in Northern Ireland and as Members of the House of Commons are not always fully aware of the arrangements for government in Northern Ireland, I hope that the House will bear with me while I set out some of the facts and figures about the Northern Ireland Civil Service.
  There are eight major Departments. The senior Department is the Department of Finance with a staff of about 4,400 civil servants and a budget of about £29·1 million. Basically it is responsible for control of expenditure of Northern Ireland Departments, liaison with the United Kingdom Treasury and the Northern Ireland Office on financial matters and economic and social planning and research. It also contains the Civil Service Management Division which is responsible for the recruitment, pay and conditions of the Northern Ireland Civil Service.
  Then there is the Department of Health and Social Services of which I am the head, which we discussed in the Northern Ireland Committee in the past two weeks. It has a total of 53,000 staff. The actual number of Northern Ireland civil servants contained in it is 5,400. It has the largest departmental budget of all, amounting to £314 million per annum. Its functions are the management of social security, the cash social services, personal and public health services and personal social services. It differs from the Department of Health and Social Security in Whitehall in that it is directly responsible for the control of personal social services in Northern Ireland whereas control in Great Britain is by the local authorities.
  My other Department, the Department of Education, has an annual budget of £241 million and employs 645 civil servants. It is responsible for all the normal educational services—primary, secondary, further—including adult—and higher education. It has oversight
  768
  of the area education and library boards which are responsible to the Department for the local administration of the education and library services; teacher training; examinations—including the selection and review procedures—youth welfare and youth services; museums; the Arts Council; and the Armagh Observatory, which is an excellent institution. In conjunction with district councils, it is also responsible for community relations policy, which was incorporated into the Department of Education by Order.
  The Department of Agriculture employs 7,193 staff with an annual budget of £38·4 million. It deals with the development of agricultural, forestry and fishing industries; the administration of legislation and schemes relating to farm improvement, crop improvement, plant health, livestock improvement, animal health, horticulture, and agricultural loans. The Department also acts as agent of the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in the fields of economic support for the agricultural industry and the implementation of the EEC Common Agricultural Policy.
  The Department of Commerce employs a staff of 834 and has an annual budget of £175 million. It is responsible for the development of Northern Ireland's industry and commerce; the administration of schemes of assistance to industry, including linkage with the Local Enterprise Development Unit and the Northern Ireland Finance Corporation; electricity and other fuels; and the development of tourism.
  The Department of Manpower Services has a staff of 2,184 and an annual budget of £42 million. The Department deals with employment services; employment and unemployment statistics; advisory services to companies; industrial training boards; management training; industrial relations, including sponsorship of the Review Body; the factory inspectorate; disabled persons; contracts of employment; redundancy pay; and wages councils.
  Finally, there is the Department of the Environment, which as from 1st April, as a result of the decision taken by the House tonight, will be merged with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Planning. The merged Department will be responsible for housing and

  769
  local government as well as EEC coordination; the construction and maintenance of roads and bridges; street lighting; traffic management; road safety; motor taxation; driving licences; fire services, transport; water supply; sewerage services, and so on.
  All the Departments had a combined budget of over £1,000 million in 1975–76. The Northern Ireland Civil Service has 33,402 staff, largely recruited from the people of Northern Ireland. This is a separate service under the Crown answerable, through Ministers of the Northern Ireland Office, to the Secretary of State.
  The Departments provide a wide range of services, but despite the considerable improvements which have been made over many years, Northern Ireland is faced with considerable economic and social problems which have been exacerbated by the security situation over the last few years. The economic problems which have led to growth in unemployment in other parts of the United Kingdom also exist in Northern Ireland where their impact is bound to be even greater. These problems should be tackled resolutely and they will be, within the resources which can be made available. Under continued direct rule, it is the Government's intention to take a positive attitude towards the solution of these problems and to govern positively. We are not intending to act as caretakers in Northern Ireland any longer.
  The Supplementary Estimates for 1975–76 and the sums required on account for 1976–77 which are being appropriated in the Order provide the means for the Northern Ireland Departments under the direction of the Secretary of State to exercise this role in the immediate future.
  I shall deal first with the Spring and Further Spring Supplementary Estimates. The total additional provision sought is some £54 million. The main Estimates provision of £827 million was approved by the House in July and the Autumn Supplementary Estimates provision of some £147 million, was approved in December. The total for 1975–76 is therefore £1,028 million, compared with a total Estimates provision of £725 million in 1974–75. Of the additional £54 million now sought, some £32 million or about 60 per cent. is in respect of pay
  770
  or price increases. The amount accounted for by real increases in public expenditure is about £18 million.
  Details of the services for which extra funds are required are given in two Supplementary Estimates volumes available in the Library. The largest item making up the real increase is the £14 million additional contribution to the Northern Ireland Housing Executive at Class VII, Vote 2 of the Estimates. An additional £1 million is sought as further compensation to the Housing Executive for losses of rent suffered as a result of the Government's counter-inflation policy; and some £2½ million is also sought for writing off the housing deficits outstanding on the accounts of the former New Town Commissions. An extra £4 million is required for water services and over £1 million for roads. Some of the increases in these latter two services are due to the commencement of additional schemes as part of the measures to alleviate unemployment in the Province.
  I will not turn to the sums required on account for 1976–77. As has already been agreed by the Public Accounts Committee and the Expenditure Committee, a major reform of the Northern Ireland Estimates is being introduced in 1976–77. In this reform, expenditure will be shown by PES provision rather than by Department, as was done before. This will be similar to that of the present United Kingdom Supply Estimates, the form of which was revised in 1974–75. The grouping of Classes and Votes in the Statement of sums required on account is therefore different from that in the Supplementary Estimates for 1975–76.
  The sums required on account have been calculated in accordance with the accepted formula, which is the same as that used for United Kingdom Departments, that is, they are 45 per cent. of the total estimates for the current financial year. The total sum sought on account is £464 million and details are provided in Part II of the Schedule to this Order.
  These are the main features of the Order to which I wish to draw attention, but I should like to make one further point before I close. Hon. Members will have noted that the Order makes provision for expenditure in 1976–77 by the

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  Department of Housing, Local Government and Planning. We have already taken a decision on the Order amalgamating this Department with the Department of the Environment. Provision is made in that Order for dealing with the financial consequences of the amalgamation, so I suggest we need not deal with them in the present discussion.
  I understand that it is the particular wish of hon. Members to discuss education on these Estimates. I hope that I have come prepared to deal with any points they may wish to raise.
  10.50 p.m.
  Mr. Airey Neave: I thank the Minister of State for the way that he explained the Order, but I have some questions to put to him.
  The hon. Gentleman began by referring to the increase of £14 million in the Supplementary Estimates, mainly on housing. He referred to the deficit last year of the Housing Executive which was written off. Is the increase voted for housing for 1975–76 additional to that amount?
  The Minister referred to the Annual Report of the Housing Executive, which I have been reading this evening. In that Report the chairman referred to what he described as an "irresolvable dilemma"—I think the hon. Gentleman will remember that phrase—and estimated that, with the present subsidy structure unaltered, with current interest rates and other expenses and an annual rent increase at about the same level as in 1974–1975, there would still be an annual deficit of £20 million in 1980. What do the Government propose to do about that problem? Do the Estimates for 1976–77 assume that it will continue? Have they taken that point into account? We are concerned to know the answers to those questions.
  I notice in the Appropriations in Aid a slight drop for the Department of Agriculture. To what is that related? I am sure that Northern Ireland Members will wish to put agricultural questions, but I should like to put one myself. What has been the effect of the Price Review on the green pound and industries connected with agriculture? We are informed that there are serious problems. However, I leave those matters for Northern Ireland Members to raise.
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  I turn now to the Votes on Account for 1976–77—Part II—and the figure of £464 million to which the Minister referred. I gather that is taken at current prices.
  The total estimated expenditure for 1976–77 on trade, industry and employment is over £142 million, of which we are here voting a large proportion. This is Class II. That seems to involve some drop in expenditure. We reckon that it is a real drop of £23 million. Is that calculation correct?
  We naturally support the Government in making all possible economies, but we want to know whether the priorities are clear. Has there been a drop in the uptake of Government grants to industry and investment incentives in Northern Ireland? That seems important. Is there a shift in expenditure on industry from capital incentives towards public investment and public employment? If so, may we have an indication of the extent of that shift?
  What provision for the new Northern Ireland Development Corporation is included in the Estimates? Will the Minister indicate what stage Government thinking on this matter has reached? What capital will be available to the new Northern Ireland Development Corporation?
  The Minister did not refer to Class IV expenditure in Part II. This is largely on road developments. There appear to be some real cuts in the departmental estimates there. It may be proper that there should be such cuts at this time. Northern Ireland has a much improved road system, which is vital to its economy. What real cuts have been made in road developments?
  Another point on Class IV concerns expenditure on transport services. How is the Northern Ireland Transport Holding Company carrying on in the present situation? How is it affected by the apparent real cuts in Class IV expenditure?
  Those are the points I wish to make. Otherwise, we welcome the Order and thank the Minister for introducing it.
  10.55 p.m.
  Mr. James Kilfedder: The total Northern Ireland Estimate for 1975–76 is now over £1,000 million at 1975 price levels. At the price levels of

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  1973—only two years ago—that figure would have been about £500 million. That is the measure of the effects of inflation on Government finance. The same services are costing two or three times as much today as they cost two years ago. No wonder the entire nation is now involved in a life and death struggle to defeat inflation. That was exemplified this evening in the vote of confidence in the Government, although some hon. Members from Northern Ireland thought it better to abstain than to vote against the Government.
  For the younger generation, if they only knew it, this is the Battle of Britain 1976. Victory in this battle will bring the certainty of a better life for all, but defeat will ruin everything which we have created as assuredly as if we had been inundated by a great tidal wave.
  The Government have a duty to get their priorities right. When we examine the Estimates for 1976–77 we shall be able to see more clearly how the various Government Departments are being asked to adjust their spending. The aim surely must be to encourage the creation of more wealth for all by injecting a greater proportion of funds into manufacturing industries and agriculture. The industrial infrastructure essential for economic growth cannot be ignored.
  In the. Government's White Paper on Expenditure the total decrease in funds allocated to Northern Ireland Departments between 1976 and 1980 is £37·2 million. Surprisingly, £30 million of that amount represents a decrease in those items which stimulate economic growth—for example, agriculture, fisheries, forestry, trade, industry, employment, roads and transport. In other words, the very sector of the Northern Ireland economy which should be receiving a boost is having to bear the biggest burden of the decrease.
  About £20 million a year has been switched—I might almost say "stolen"—from Northern Ireland Government Departments in order to give it to the Northern Ireland Office for the purpose of maintaining law and order in Northern Ireland or what goes for law and order in Northern Ireland.
  It is absolutely incredible that a part of the United Kingdom is expected not only
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  to endure the tribulations and depredations of the gunmen and the bombers but at the same time to surrender the opportunities promised to the Ulster people in last year's White Paper on Expenditure. If the same criteria were applied to London or to the South-East of England there would be no national subsidy for the London transport system or the London docks. The switch of resources which is very noticeable in the present Appropriation Order is thoroughly reprehensible in principle and in practice.
  No doubt the Scottish and Welsh Members will take careful note of the financial consequences of the unitary system of government of the United Kingdom which is so close to the hearts of some hon. Members.
  I regret that the majority of Northern Ireland Members seem to want total integration and do not have a genuine interest in devolution for the Province. In my view they do a disservice to the people of Northern Ireland who need to have Government in the Province so that they would be close to the people who could readily approach them. By taking their present stand these Members are turning their backs on the genuine and deeply felt needs of the Ulster people. The sooner we have a devolved system of Government the better for Ulster and for the people of the Province.
  It is not just a question of geographical distance, but of lack of understanding from Whitehall. Ministers and officials at the centre are not seen frequently enough at the periphery of the United Kingdom, and certainly not in Northern Ireland. The people cannot identify them with solving their problems. I appreciate that the Ministers fly by helicopter from Stormont Castle to various places in Northern Ireland and are then whisked away again back to Stormont. But that does not give the people a chance to communicate their problems to Ministers.
  Mr. Moyle: I wonder when the hon. Member was last in Andersonstown or the Shankill. I was there last week.
  Mr. Kilfedder: If I had the sort of security force that the Minister has I would readily go to Andersonstown——
  Mr. Moyle: I will invite the hon. Member along the next time I go.
  Mr. Kilfedder: I would go without hesitation if it would help the cause of peace in Northern Ireland. When the security forces are expected to go into all parts of Northern Ireland it is time for politicians to take the lead, even though there might be a risk. Nevertheless it is a risk worth taking for the future of the Province.
  In 1975 nearly £8 million came to Northern Ireland from the EEC regional and social funds. In 1976 the figure will be nearly £10 million. This is not mentioned in the figures in the Order, and the Minister might help in that respect. Does it mean that these sums are not to be credited to the Northern Ireland Consolidated Fund from which appropriations are made?
  Suspicion exists, rightly or wrongly, that the EEC funds are not in effect what they should be—that is, in addition to Northern Ireland's total allocation of funds. What has been alleged is that the EEC funds are being used to reduce the allocations made in the normal way by the Treasury. That would mean that the Treasury is actually saving money at the expense of Northern Ireland and contrary to the intentions of the EEC. Trade unionists have expressed a great deal of concern for the last few years on this point, and I hope, therefore, that the Minister will explain the effects of EEC funds granted to the Province.
  The charge for school meals is to be increased from 15p to 20p in September. At 33 1/3 per cent. that is the largest percentage increase levied since the scheme was universally adopted about 30 years ago. For a family with three children at school that will mean an increase of 75p per week. This comes at a time of a 2 per cent. drop in the standard of living in the United Kingdom. The drop in some areas has been steeper, particularly in the North-East, which comes off worst, and then in Northern Ireland and Scotland—a drop of 5 per cent. compared with 2 per cent. nationally.
  Further education is very sensitive to employment opportunities. In North Down, for example, 17 youths were attending Newtownards Technical College for a bricklaying course. Since builders were crying out for bricklayers, 14 of the young men left the course and started work. The remaining three had to be
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  transferred to Millfield College, Belfast. This year there is no bricklaying course at Newtownards College.
  With the closure of the Gainsborough factory at Bangor and the impending closure of Rolls-Royce at Dundonald there has been a dramatic fall in attendances at day-release courses. It is hoped that unemployed young men and women will see the advantage of further study and make use of the opportunities to learn a new skill at technical college or Government training centre. I hope that the Minister will give an assurance that the great merit of such further education is brought to the attention of young men and women in the Province who are paid off from employment.
  The hon. Member for Abingdon (Mr. Neave) referred to school transport. The education boards in Northern Ireland own and operate more buses than some commercial concerns. Many of those vehicles are idle for many hours each day. They represent a large capital investment and with more imaginative management greater use might be made of them. For instance, elderly people could be collected for a day's shopping in the nearby towns or shopping centres. That sort of semisocial service could be fitted into the school day because the majority of the elderly would want to shop in the late morning or early afternoon—just when children are at school.
  I hope that the Minister recognises that there is great scope for dual or optimum use of school buses as well as of assembly and sports halls and swimming pools.
  Finally, I refer to a vitally important constituency matter. I make a special plea to the Minister to consult his right hon. Friend the Minister of State, who is responsible for commerce, to come to the aid of the young people of Bangor, who have now been deprived of their Blue Lamp Disco. About 600 young people of all religions were able to meet together in Bangor. Such recreational activity helped not only to create friendships between youths of different religions and between youths who might not otherwise meet, but provided an opportunity to give vent to youthful exuberance. Tribute should be paid to the members of the police who run the Blue Lamp Discos.
  However, there is now no place available in Bangor. There are some Government factories vacant in Bangor. I hope

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  that the Government will soon find tenants for all those factories but meanwhile why not lend one of them to the youth of Bangor? One factory which is suitable is the Wellrex factory in Bangor. I hope that the Government will accede to my request because otherwise the Minister might have a march of young people from Bangor, which would make a change from some of the other marchers who visit Stormont Castle.
  Mr. Moyle: I was at the Blue Lamp Disco on New Year's Eve, but I did not see the hon. Gentleman. I hope that he has attended the Disco.
  Mr. Kilfedder: I am sorry that the Minister misses me whenever he makes a tour of the Province. If he had told me that he was visiting the Blue Lamp Disco in my constituency—the normal convention—I should have been quite happy to hold his hand.
  Several Hon.Several Hon. Members rose——
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Myer Galpern): I remind hon. Members that this debate cannot proceed beyond 12.08 a.m.
  11.8 p.m.
  Mr. McCusker: As the Minister indicated, I intend to confine my remarks to the expenditure under Class IV, which relates to education.
  I ask hon. Members to cast their minds back 15 months when we witnessed here something that worried most hon. Members who represent Northern Ireland constituencies. At that time we passed a Youth Employment Service Order which, in effect, disbanded the Youth Employment Service at a time when that facility was being developed throughout the rest of the Kingdom. We moved against the trend in Western Europe and the rest of the United Kingdom by transferring that responsibility from Education to the Department of Manpower Services. We were told that that was in the interests of everyone and were advised that it would be introduced under what was referred to as a new all-age guidance and placement service.
  We expressed reservations at that time but were reassured by the Under-Secretary that schools' careers masters would get appropriate specialist training with
  778
  specific responsibility for the provisions of careers guidance. The Under-Secretary went on to say that the schools careers masters would be given full backing, so far as educational needs were concerned, by the area educational library boards and the Department of Education.
  What concerned us then was that there was no general evidence that schools in Northern Ireland were aware, in the sense that we should have liked them to be, of what was happening. There was not the requisite number of full-time appropriately trained careers teachers. I remember venturing to suggest that a headmaster confronted by absenteeism, problems of large classes, and so on, would frequently say to a person who was supposed to be a full-time careers guidance teacher "Go down to room 16 and look after that group". There was always the danger that the guidance that we think is so important would become secondary.
  Since then I have made inquiries. I know that certainly some of the area boards were not in a position to take over from the Youth Employment Service as we knew it. Can the Minister give us tonight a report on how the transition has taken place? At the time, a document was produced entitled "Proposed Assimilation Arrangements". Has that assimilation taken place? Is the Minister, as the Minister responsible for education in Northern Ireland, satisfied? Is the alternative to the Youth Employment Service being provided? Are there sufficient full-time careers masters available in the secondary schools throughout Northern Ireland? Perhaps the Minister will even indicate how many such masters he believes there are. We should also be interested to know how many are presently undergoing the training which is so necessary and which the Under-Secretary suggested would be provided.
  Our fear, which I must reiterate, was that we would see our Youth Employment Service destroyed, with no adequate replacement. When looking at the expenditure cuts which are so necessary now, one cannot help but feel that we shall be in this "bind". We took that decision 15 months ago. The Youth Employment Service has been phased out of existence. Because of restrictions on expenditure we may not be able to get an adequate replacement. I hope that

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  the Minister will reassure us about this matter.
  I notice in Class IV that for expenditure on university grants, teacher training and the Ulster College the amount is roughly two-thirds of what it was last year. I hope that there will not be any cut-back in the provision of this training. While there was a transferred responsibility of the aspect of the Youth Employment Service known as careers guidance to the Department of Manpower Services, the Ministry of Education still had a responsibility. There was to be set up what was known as a Youth Careers Guidance Committee, with representatives from the various area boards, the various Departments and other organisations which were considered appropriate. Has the Committee been established? If so, what work has it been doing? What recommendations has it made to date, if any? What reports has it produced? Can those be made available to us? If we are to make a judgment of what was proposed 15 months ago, we need to know those details.
  The problems that we felt might emerge with these assimilation arrangements were not altogether purely technical problems of how the service would be administered. We were also concerned about the personnel problems. I am sure that the Minister remembers that there were reservations and worries among the staff. Have those been successfully overcome? Have the staff of the service fitted into the new all-purpose, all-age guidance and placement service, and are they happy and satisfied that the work that they are doing in the new service is as productive and as useful as that which they were doing in the Youth Employment Service?
  I turn to a more contentious subject—namely, the discussion taking place in Northern Ireland about the abolition of the 11-plus selection procedure and the introduction of comprehensive education. We have been assured over the past year that the feasibility study which the Minister requested has been completed and presented. We hear that he is shortly to issue a consultative document.
  We are concerned that decisions are being taken that are remote from the people of Northern Ireland as well as
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  from their elected representatives. Those who are most intimately involved and concerned about what is to happen merely read about these events in the Press. In other words, they can obtain only second-hand information. They do not feel that they are taking any part in the discussion. There are differences on detail and we are concerned that everyone in Northern Ireland has the opportunity to say his piece.
  I noticed that a spokesman for the Unionist Party expressed concern in the local Press about the ending of 11-plus selection—She said,
  "We are going to have Socialist dogma imposed upon the people of Northern Ireland without adequate consultation."
  There are some who are thinking along those lines, but that is not necessarily the view of myself or my colleagues. I believe that the Minister will consider the financial and administrative implications. In the light of the debate of the past few days, I am sure that those implications will bear heavily upon him.
  I think we are all agreed that nothing should be imposed by a once-and-for-all deal on the whole of Northern Ireland. The Minister will know that different circumstances exist in different parts of the Province and that cuts are already taking place in some areas. Experiments took place a few years ago, and there is now the well-established Craigavon plan or, as it was known at the time, Dickson plan, which introduced the concept of the junior high school.
  As someone who lived in the area and witnessed the problems and experience of those involved, I suggest that one of the great weaknesses of the system was the opportunity to opt to go to grammar school at Banbridge, Lisburn or Belfast. At one time over 100 children were travelling from the Craigavon area to grammar schools. That was to the detriment of the scheme.
  I do not want to be too restrictive in the choice that is offered to parents, but I think that the option of travelling to other grammar schools had a damaging effect. Lurgan College is an excellent school that is struggling as a result of a decline in its intake of students. The college has all the facilities that are required to provide the best level of

  781
  education. At the same time there are probably two coach loads of children leaving the other end of Lurgan to go to the grammar school at Banbridge, and two or three coach loads going to Lisburn. There are even some children travelling to grammar schools in Belfast. This is perhaps allowing too great a choice.
  We know that in Belfast there are large secondary schools that have been developed into good comprehensive schools. I believe that the Minister recently visited Ballycastle to see the voluntary arrangement that has been established. It is an arrangement which suits the area's needs. We must take into account the locations of schools and the facilities that they make available.
  I know that the various teachers' organisations in Northern Ireland have already expressed an opinion about the abolition of the 11-plus examination. We know that the Advisory Council on Education has expressed views, but the real debate amongst the people who matter has not yet started. We hope that account will be taken of the locations and sizes of schools.
  While one may believe that schools can be grouped to form good comprehensive schools, it would be a matter of great concern if an attempt were made to bus pupils, perhaps several miles, or to convert small schools into mini-comprehensive schools. We are concerned that opportunities are not being given for opinions on these matters to be expressed and we hope that this is an aspect on which the Minister will help.
  We are also concerned that the basic problems in education are not forgotten. We have 115,000 children in classes of more than 30 and 35,000 pupils in classes of more than 36. This may be better than the situation in Great Britain, but we have prided ourselves in the past on three-year and four-year teacher training courses and an educational provision which, at least until comparatively recently, has been better than that in Britain. We want to keep it that way. In the drive towards comprehensive education, we must not lose sight of other priorities.
  There is a grievance among teachers in technical schools, which I have raised before. They do not have contracts of
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  employment setting out the terms and conditions enjoyed by their counterparts in the rest of the United Kingdom. On 2nd December, the Minister told me that the cost of introducing these contracts would be only £260,000 and that savings which would emerge from the introduction of the contracts would have to be set against that sum. Teachers' representatives tell me that approval is still being sought from various managements and the Department. About 400 teachers are involved and they have been waiting for almost three months. This is a source of irritation and grievance and there is uncertainty about their position without these contracts. For instance, are they adequately covered for insurance purposes?
  I hope that the Minister will be able to remove this grievance. The amount of money involved is small, and he would receive considerable good will at a time when he may be seeking the co-operation and assistance of these teachers.
  11.23 p.m.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: I want to deal with three or four matters, under various classes, of which I have given notice to the Minister.
  The first concerns sewerage and water, which comes under Class VIII. Is there a maximum amount per house set aside for the provisions of these services? I understand that the Housing Executive has great difficulty in supplying these services to properties in some areas, especially in my constituency. Is account taken, in the sums provided for sewerage and water, of the current rampant inflation? Is there a sliding scale so that people who want and need these services can at least have the opportunity, at some time, of having them supplied?
  The only large off-shore island in Northern Ireland is Rathlin Island, in my constituency. For some time strong pressure has been put on the Department to do something about the harbour facilities of the island. What progress is being made? It is to be regretted that the island has been neglected. I pay tribute to the Minister responsible for Northern Ireland under the previous Conservative Government and to the present Under-Secretary of State for visiting Rathlin and taking an interest in this matter. I hope

  783
  that the Minister will tell us what progress has been made with the harbour facilities.
  Even if good harbour facilities were available in Rathlin, access to the mainland through Ballycastle Harbour has to be considered, and I would appreciate some up-to-date information about that. There is also the question of roads on the island. Is the Minister satisfied with the operation of the preliminary scheme? What replies has he received, if any, from the committee of the islanders about the scheme?
  Ballymena Textiles in my constituency is, unfortunately, in trouble. I do not wish to say anything which might hinder negotiations between the Department and the firm, but the Minister must be aware that the firm has announced that a receiver has been called in. Over the employees hangs the dark cloud of whether they will lose their jobs or be made redundant. Is the Minister able to make a statement about the firm?
  The Minister has received a deputation of old-age pensioners who are concerned about concessionary fares on transport services. In parts of the United Kingdom concessionary fares are available, but not in the Province. Will the Minister tell us what is the position, and can he hold out any hope that the old-age pensioners will be able to get concessionary fares?
  11.28 p.m.
  Mr. Robert J. Bradford: In speaking of Class IV of the Order I return to a matter referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Armagh (Mr. McCusker). He stated that an agreement had been reached between the unions representing the teachers in further education in Northern Ireland and the employers but that there was difficulty about the date of implementation of the agreement. I am reminded of a certain biblical prophet who asked "How long, O Lord, how long?" The teachers are afraid that they will receive the answer which he received, which is "Not for generation after generation".
  The teachers in further education make a considerable contribution to educational life, and they should receive the treatment to which they are entitled. The conditions of service document relates to the number of hours worked, possible time
  784
  off for study and the rationalisation of pay rates. These are all important aspects of the conditions of employment.
  As the hon. Member for Armagh stated, the cost of implementing this agreement would be about £250,000. One of the excuses offered for delaying implementation is that it would contravene the £6 limit in the Government's present pay policy. This point is justified, apparently, by stating that as fewer hours would be worked by the teachers concerned, they would receive pro rata more money for the hours worked. While there may be some argument in that, nevertheless, it is important to realise that these teachers have not received any increase for a considerable time.
  I draw the Minister's attention to the fact that discussions relating to this document on conditions of service have been going on for some years. As it has taken such an inordinate length of time to implement the agreement reached between unions and employers, some teachers in Northern Ireland in further education have a contract but about a third of the teachers in Northern Ireland have not. This is very serious, because it means that there is no power to regulate the time involved in resignation or, for that matter, dismissal. Resignations or dismissals can take place within days, and there is no control whatsoever over that kind of possibility.
  Also, the teachers in their own colleges of further education are receiving less money when they work in the evenings than teachers who come, say, from secondary schools, or those who take control of certain classes and are not trained teachers at all. All these anomalies could be removed were this agreement to be implemented.
  Another point is that in Northern Ireland there is no discretionary extension for sick leave in extenuating circumstances. In the rest of the United Kingdom there is such a discretionary extension available. It is just another pointer to the fact that teachers in Northern Ireland are lagging far behind those in the rest of the Kingdom in regard to conditions of service and the lack of implementation of this sort of agreement.
  I turn now to another issue, relating to wages. This time it is not a question

  785
  of not receiving a due wage or a proper condition of employment. It is a question of an unnecessary delay in the payment of wages. I refer to staff who are involved as domestic science assistance and refectory staff in colleges in Belfast. This problem relates solely to Belfast, if my information is correct. Although the matter was raised by one college initially—the business college in Belfast—it affects 1,700 people.
  The problem, I understand, is that there is a retaining wage paid over the period of the eight weeks summer holiday to the two categories I have mentioned, but the retaining payment is paid in such a way that three weeks at half pay is kept until the staff return after the summer holidays, and, unlike the situation in the rest of the United Kingdom, the staff have to wait for two weeks to receive that money.
  The matter was raised with the Education and Library Board of Belfast, but no great mileage was achieved there. It was also raised as a matter of urgency by the Board of Governors of the College of Business Studies in Belfast, and the governors sent a resolution to the Education Board. That resolution was discussed and accepted by a sub-committee of the Education Board, but was rejected by the full Board.
  Mr. Kilfedder: It has been settled.
  Mr. Bradford: I hope that the comment of my hon. Friend is accurate. He says that the matter has been settled.
  Mr. Kilfedder: There is a reasonable prospect.
  Mr. Bradford: If the matter has been settled, my hon. Friend is saving me some time and some breath. I shall be happy to give way to the Minister if he wishes to say that that is so. However, I proceed on the assumption that it is not yet settled. All avenues of approach have been exhausted. As with another issue that I drew to the Minister's attention, I have no recourse but to ask the Minister to investigate urgently.
  The people involved are domestic science assistants and refectory staff, people who rightly depend on immediacy of payment. It is serious for them to have to wait two weeks after the summer holidays before receiving payment. Most
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  of them are among the lower paid and therefore need the money quickly. They tend to be widows or to have families and dependants, or to be nearing pension age, all the kinds of people who need their money fairly quickly and who require their wages to be paid on time.
  Although almost as numerous as the teachers under the control of the Belfast Education and Library Board, this category of people does not have representation on the Board itself. I have already drawn the Minister's attention to this. The Board's decisions have a serious bearing on the livelihoods and futures of these people. If they are as numerous as they obviously are and as important to the whole system as they obviously are, it is not asking too much to ask that they be represented on the Board, particularly as there are on the Board people who are not teachers, who are not elected but invited, and whose contributions to the Board may be unhelpful and perhaps even negligible.
  I conclude by returning to a subject raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley)—concessionary fares for old-age pensioners. I have raised this issue previously. Some days ago, I received through the post a letter from a gentleman who had been in communication with the Minister and who had shared a meeting with the Minister just six weeks prior to the General Election of October 1974. This man documents in the letter than he received a promise from the Minister that immediately after the October election the whole question of concessionary bus fares for old-age pensioners would probably be discussed seriously, if not indeed resolved fully.
  A lot of water has passed under the bridge since then. A lot of time has passed and a lot of money has passed out of the pockets of old-age pensioners. I am sure I would receive the accord of the whole House in asking the Minister to confer with his colleague who is responsible for the matter. If he would like a copy of the letter to which I have referred, and it would strengthen his case, I would be happy to convey it to him.
  11.41 p.m.
  Mr. J. Enoch Powell: This evening's experience shows that we have probably hit upon a useful method of

  787
  utilising these debates upon the Appropriation Order by concentrating, although not, of course, exclusively, upon one previously notified subject. I intend not to refer specifically to Class IV but to make one or two general observations about the background to the appropriation account. Before I come to it, however, there are one or two remarks I should like to make.
  First, I think that earlier in this debate, something very unfair was said about the presence of Ministers in Northern Ireland. I do not think that it is sufficiently realised in Northern Ireland that the population of Northern Ireland enjoys a more intensive attention from Her Majesty's Ministers than any other part of the Kingdom. After all, there are five Ministers of the Crown who are concerned full time with the affairs of what is a very important and outlying Province but which has a population of 1½ million. I do not consider that the slightest complaint can be made of their preoccupation with their duties or of the detailed acquaintance which they make on the ground with the problems of the different parts of Northern Ireland. That matter should be put straight and it should be well understood in Northern Ireland.
  It is very natural that in Northern Ireland, under the pressure of the events of the last seven years, people should get into the habit of feeling that, in every respect, they are, as it were, getting the thin end. It is just worth while mentioning that in some respects intensive attention is paid to their affairs by the Government and, therefore, quite properly, by this House.
  The other observation I should like to insinuate is that we welcome this evening our twelfth representative of the Province. It was rather like the appearance of the ghost of Hamlet's father on the battlements at Elsinore. Some of us feared that the ghost, having made his appearance, was going to walk off the stage on the other side, but at the last moment our anxieties were relieved. I am sure we all agree that the more often he comes here and the more he participates with us in debates on the affairs of Northern Ireland, even if it means that there is a little less time left for the rest of us, the better in the long run and the more we shall be pleased.
  Mr. Frank Maguire: I am here.
  Mr. Powell: We are delighted.
  I want now to come to the relationship between this Order and the appropriation accounts for the previous financial year and the report upon them by the Comptroller and Auditor General, for, of course, this is a continuing link which runs forward from one financial year to another, and when we come to vote sums for the coming year on account, we should at any rate put it on record. It would be improper if we did not air some of the criticisms and anxieties voiced under these heads as a result of the work of the Comptroller and Auditor General.
  Having for some years—and for several years intensively—as a member of the Public Accounts Committee been concerned with this type of Report, I think that Northern Ireland is exceptionally well served by the work done upon its accounts by the Comptroller and Auditor General. It is unfair to him and to the House—and I hope that this matter can be put right—that we receive his Report very late and that consequently the comments of the Government, which we ought to have upon his Report, come even later.
  For example, the accounts for 1974–75, for the year ended March 1975, which I hold in my hand, were ordered by this House to be printed on 21st October. But the notation at the end informs us that they were actually printed in February and only became available this month to the House. I do not doubt that it would be agreed by the Secretary of State that that is not satisfactory. No doubt there are impediments which have caused this but it should be accepted that a much prompter availability of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General—and consequently the availability of the Government's comments on it before we come to vote moneys—ought to be the order of the day. I hope that that will be attended to.
  I want to place on the record, because it is wrong that they should be ignored, some of the principal points of anxiety which emerged from that Report and which must be continuing; for they run on through the Votes with which we are dealing. First, there is the possible duplication, and consequent waste, of payments from the EEC and from United

  789
  Kingdom sources for the same purpose. It is astonishing to learn that the Departments concerned are not necessarily informed of payments made from EEC sources. This cannot be right and some way ought to be found of dealing with it.
  The second point concerns the continuing losses and frauds on Giro cheques. There is some improvement but this occasion ought not to pass without it being registered that large sums are being lost in this way. There is all too much reason to fear that it is not mere theft but is connected with other malpractices from which the Province suffers.
  There is the question of the 100 per cent. grant to voluntary homes for children and the fact that if a grant, instead of being a proportionate grant, is a total grant—if that be not a contradiction in terms—much closer surveillance, a surveillance which would be appropriate if the service were being provided directly, is required. The Comptroller and Auditor General was right there.
  I also mention—it has been mentioned in the Press—the extraordinary story of the electronic cash register that never was, which resulted in between £2 million and £3 million being spent under what was, to put it mildly, a misapprehension. There is a lack of foresight and criticism at the proper time in connection with the provision of recreation centres, and particularly a recreation centre in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux). There are also the sharp words—and the normal language of the Comptroller and Auditor General is so dulcet that when he does use sharp words we ought to take notice—which he applied to the absence of stores checks in the Government training centres.
  I have not mentioned all the points of criticism in the Comptroller and Auditor General's Report. Nor do I expect that the Minister, in replying, will refer to them all because we are to get, I assume, the formal reply of the Government. But I suggest that it would have been wrong if some of the principal complaints had not been put on the record in the course of the debate when these sums are being voted.
  11.50 p.m.
  Mr. Gerard Fitt: I do not intend to detain the House for long, although the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) said that he was not going to detain the House and then mentioned five or six points. If Northern Ireland Members are to have justice, the Minister should take a long time to reply in detail to the important questions raised by the right hon. Member for Down, South.
  I was in the House on the Friday when the Secretary of State announced the ending of the Convention and when we were told that we were to have a period of direct rule. There will have to be significant changes in the way that direct rule is applied. We were told that it will be positive, not negative.
  Reference was made earlier to the old Stormont Parliament. An opportunity would have been given there in a debate on such an Appropriation Order for a wide discussion on all aspects of Northern Ireland life, including education, health and social services, commerce and all the matters mentioned by the Minister. One and a half hours is certainly not sufficient to enable hon. Members to pick out points which they wish to raise either from a constituency or from a wider Northern Ireland view.
  For example, all Northern Ireland representatives in the House tonight are concerned that 51,000 people are unemployed in Northern Ireland. That figure is liable to rise dramatically in the next six months. I know that the man in charge of the Department of Commerce is absolutely dedicated and that he is doing everything he can to increase employment prospects, but to support and boost the morale of the Northern Ireland people, further opportunities must be given in the House at times when hon. Members from other United Kingdom constituencies are present. Hon. Members from Northern Ireland also like to go to bed early in the evening.
  Such Orders should not be introduced at this time of the night. Hon. Members, and perhaps Ministers who fly to and from Northern Ireland, could be excused for being unable to give each subject

  791
  the attention it deserves. Northern Ireland Committees have given us the opportunity to discuss education, social services, commerce and other matters, but it would be more satisfactory to do that on the Floor of the House when hon. Members from other United Kingdom constituencies were here and could take part in debates on the affairs of Northern Ireland. The Appropriation Account for Northern Ireland is not exclusively a matter for Northern Ireland Members. I would like to see more English, Scottish and Welsh hon. Members contribute to such a debate.
  The two points I intend to raise are of concern to all of us from Northern Ireland. They concern industrial development, and an increase in jobs. We must stop any further increase in the rate of unemployment and, if possible, increase industrial development in Northern Ireland.
  I again express my disappointment at the activities of the Northern Ireland Housing Executive. We have said this in Committee. The Housing Executive could build more houses. It has fallen down on the job. I recognise its tremendous difficulties, but the Minister should note what is said by Northern Ireland representatives and try to encourage or coerce the Executive into building more houses and so alleviating our great distress.
  I know that the Minister will not have time to reply in detail, but I hope that positive direct rule will lead to Northern Ireland debates taking place at an earlier time, as is the case with the business of the rest of the United Kingdom.
  11.56 p.m.
  Mr. Moyle: With leave of the House. I would first thank the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) for his kind remarks about the activities of myself and my colleagues in various parts of the Province. This matter was also mentioned by the hon. Member for Down, North (Mr. Kilfedder), who on this subject, as on many others, shows a massive capacity for speaking on matters about which he knows nothing. The comments of the right hon. Gentleman redressed the balance. I agree that we do sometimes travel by helicopter,
  792
  but that makes it possible for us to visit many more parts of the Province than conventional forms of transport. We have an advantage there. We do try to get about.
  The right hon. Gentleman said that he thought that we had found a formula for dealing with these debates. There has been more form to this debate, because UUUC Members gave me notice that they would like to discuss education.
  The most substantial point which has emerged was the question of the 11-plus examination and comprehensive education. Northern Ireland faces an important debate about the form that its secondary education should take for the future. When I got to Northern Ireland for the first time, I had before me the Report of the Burgess Committee set up under the chairmanship of the Vice-Chancellor of the new Ulster University at Coleraine, Dr. Alan Burgess, which recommended the abolition of the 11-plus but no method by which that should be done. There was therefore a great deal of planning and staff work to be done before we could start taking decisions.
  At that stage it was my ambition to do all the background work for a debate by some future devolved elected Assembly in Northern Ireland. Regrettably that option is no longer open and we may have to wait a long time for such an Assembly and a proper democratic debate on this important subject. I had to ask myself how long it was reasonable to ask the people of Northern Ireland to wait before we could discuss these matters. I concluded that it was unreasonable to ask them to wait any longer.
  I appointed the Chief Inspector of the Department of Education in Northern Ireland, a very respected man, to conduct a feasibility study into comprehensive education in the Province. He spent a year going around all the schools in Northern Ireland and making suggestions for the future of every secondary school under a possible reorganised secondary education system.
  At the same time, the 11-plus examination in Northern Ireland has been under considerable criticism because of an inherent defect. The Department's regulations stipulate that coaching for the examination should be restricted to, I think, an hour per pupil per paper. That is a

  793
  difficult provision to police. I suspect that a considerable amount of coaching goes on in Northern Ireland for the examination and that from time to time it is discovered, as it was this year. When it is discovered, those who have not been coached accuse the Department or the education system of putting them in an unfair position. We have had to rearrange the 11 -plus examinations for this year and to ask children to have another go. For the time being we have adopted measures which should limit the impact of coaching by getting the Department to set the examinations. However, this is a matter of diminishing returns.
  I have now had the feasibility study put before me. It is not about the theory of comprehensive education but about practical solutions to the problem. The chief inspector has been assisted by the senior staff inspector, Mr. Hedley. Both of them work together. As well as going into the details of the fate of schools, the report lays down general organisational principles which might be adopted.
  It is apparent that, in considering secondary school reorganisation, we shall have to consider many financial and administrative implications as well. These were not part of the feasibility study, but my Department has been working on the problems and will, I hope, be putting position papers to me on the subject in the next month. When I have had all these documents and considered them, I intend to issue a consultative document generally to the public and interested parties some time in the late spring or early summer. That consultative document will be the subject of public debate. No irreversible decisions have been taken on any aspect of the matter. The decisions have related to staff work. Therefore, the education officer of the United Ulster Unionists need not worry that decisions have been taken without proper consideration of the views of the people of Northern Ireland.
  I am determined that there shall be a full public debate on the matter. I admit that we are under some restrictions in that we do not have a readily available platform in Northern Ireland, but I intend that there shall be the fullest possible public debate during the current year in order that we may get the views of all interested parties on the proposals
  794
  which we are making for the future of secondary education in the Province. I hope that will serve as some reassurance to hon. Members. There is no intention of rough riding over anybody.
  The hon. Member for Armagh (Mr. McCusker) referred to the Youth Employment Service. He said that towards the latter end of 1974 control of the Youth Employment Service was transferred from the Department of Education to the Department of Manpower Services. I should point out that 15 months is not a great time to develop the service to the full extent to which we hope it will be developed in the months and years ahead.
  The hon. Gentleman asked some questions, and I hope to give him some encouraging information. We have put 54 teachers into careers guidance courses in Queen's University, Belfast, the new University of Ulster at Coleraine and the Ulster College which is a considerable success, and 93 teachers have been sent for in-service courses on the same subject. There is probably a teacher in every secondary school in Northern Ireland responsible for careers guidance. At the moment these teachers are not trained. It is our intention that they should be properly trained and should take up their responsibilities with the full backing of the Department.
  The staff working the new system under the Department of Manpower Services—I am not in personal contact with them—are as content as people can be in working for a Government service. That does not mean that they do not have some points of criticism that they would like to make. However, broadly speaking, they are accepting the new system.
  The hon. Gentleman also mentioned the pupil-teacher ratio and oversize classes in Northern Ireland. There is no doubt that at present—and for many years in the past—class sizes are larger in Northern Ireland than in the rest of the United Kingdom. The pupil-teacher ratio was 23·8 to one in 1970–71. However, we are making progress and the pupil-teacher ratio at the end of the last financial year had improved to 22 pupils to one teacher. It is the intention of the Northern Ireland Department of Education—all plans are geared to this end—to produce parity with the England and Wales position by 1981.

  795
  Although we talk about cut-backs in young people admitted for teacher training, the fact is that the number of teachers available to the service in Northern Ireland is increasing all the time.
  I wish to refer to the technical school teachers who were mentioned by not only the hon. Member for Armagh but by the hon. Member for Belfast, South (Mr. Bradford). I admit that there is a problem here which has been a long time in the making. There was not until recently a proper agreement for the terms and conditions of service of teachers in technical institutes in the United Kingdom. When negotiations were completed in England and Wales they were taken up in Northern Ireland and were introduced into the new negotiating machinery for teachers which has been created in Northern Ireland since I took over the Department of Education.
  There were a couple of hitches but eventually an agreement on terms and conditions of service was reached in the negotiating machinery. The matter has been agreed in principle. Regulations are now being drafted to incorporate those terms and conditions of service and they are being submitted to the area education and libraries boards.
  When the area education and libraries boards approve those regulations they will let us know and we must then consider whether the policy will fit in with the pay policy. We must find the money which will finance the new agreement from some part of the Department of Education's budget. It is highly unlikely that we shall get any new funds for this purpose. There are 400 teachers in Northern Ireland who have not got contracts. They have been taken on since the new terms and conditions of service started to be negotiated. In a situation of flux it was thought best not to give them new contracts until negotiations were settled. Nevertheless, they are being given appropriate contracts to sign and I understand that their position is, in fact, protected.
  There are a considerable number of subjects which I have been unable to touch upon in the time at my disposal and I shall write——
  It being one and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings on the
  796
  Motion. Mr. SPEAKER put the Question, pursuant to Standing Order No. 3 (Exempted Business).
  Question accordingly agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That the Appropriation (Northern Ireland) Order 1976, a draft which was laid before this House on 25th February, be approved.

  LAND DRAINAGE (AMENDMENT) BILL [Lords]
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 66 (Second Reading Committees), That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  Question agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 40 (Committal of Bills).

  LAND DRAINAGE (AMENDMENT) [MONEY]
  Queen's Recommendation having been signified—
  Resolved,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend the Land Drainage Act 1930, the Land Drainage Act 1961, Part IV of the Agriculture (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1968 and related enactments, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of money provided by Parliament of any increase attributable to the said Act in the sums so payable under any other Act.—[Mr. Dunn.]

  SOLICITORS (SCOTLAND) [MONEY]
  Queen's Recommendation having been signified—
  Resolved,
  That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision as to the powers of the Law Society of Scotland to intervene in the professional practice and conduct of solicitors; to make provision for the appointment of a lay observer to examine the Society's treatment of complaints about solicitors and the appointment of lay members of the Scottish Solicitors' Discipline Tribunal; to extend the powers of that Tribunal; to make provision as to the indemnity of solicitors against professional liability; to amend the Solicitors (Scotland) Acts 1933 to 1965; and for connected purposes, it is expedient to

  797
  authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of

  (1) such remuneration and expenses of the lay observer and his staff, and

  (2) such fees and allowances for the lay members of the Scottish Solicitors' Discipline Tribunal,

  as the Secretary of State may, with the approval of the Minister for the Civil Service, determine.—[Mr. Dunn.]

  STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS

    AGRICULTURE
    Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 73A (Standing Committees &c.),
    That the Fat Sheep (Protection of Guarantees) Order 1976 (S.I., 1976, No. 250), a copy of which was laid before this House on 26th February, be approved.—[Mr. Dunn.]
    Question agreed to.

  AGRICULTURE
  Motion made, and Question put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 73A (Standing Committees &c),
  That the Fat Sheep (Guarantee Payments) Order 1976 (S.I., 1976, No. 249), a copy of which was laid before this House on 26th February, be approved.—[Mr. Dunn.]
  Question agreed to.

  ARMED FORCES BILL
  Ordered,
  That Mr. R. E. Bean be discharged from the Select Committee on the Armed Forces Bill and that Mr. Ben Ford be added.—[Mr. Dunn.]

  ADJOURNMENT
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adourn.—[Mr. Stoddart.]

  LONDON (INDUSTRIAL PROSPECTS)
  12.10 a.m.
  Mr. William Molloy: I wish to raise the subject of the industrial prospects and future problems facing London. The capital city is governed by the largest local authority in the world. It is the greatest and most fascinating capital city, but it faces a serious problem.
  798
  There is something special about London and the people who live here. I am not asking that they should be given more favourable treatment than people elsewhere in the United Kingdom. I am asking most earnestly, however, that they should receive the same square deal that the Government are endeavouring to give to other parts of the country.
  London has a great history in trade and commerce, in shipping and in docks, and in the arts. Since the beginning of the century, there has grown up a myriad of science-based technical and technological industries. London has been a magnet. It has attracted people from all over these islands and from many other parts of the world. The growth of industry in London has added to the wealth of the nation, and often that has been at great cost in terms of the problems created for London, particularly on housing, transport and education.
  Now the capital city has a problem not only of unemployment, but of the loss of industry. In other words, unemployment is growing and the means of combating it—the creation of industry—is being whittled away. Originally unemployment was much more serious in other parts of the United Kingdom than in London.
  The strategy of the Labour Government from 1966–70, continued, to a degree, by the last Tory Administration, was in general correct. It was to attract industry to areas like South Wales, the North-East and Scotland where unemployment was at its worst. But the attempts to cure the ills of other parts have created a threat to London. Industrial expansion in London has ceased beginning in the great docklands and spreading to the outer fringes of the city. In its progress this development has passed through my borough of Ealing and my constituency of Ealing, North. The industrial decline in Greater London will before long represent a serious threat.
  The dangers inherent in this trend are receiving detailed study by the London group of Labour Members who hope to counter the threat before it becomes a crisis. We have held special meetings and we hope that later next week we might even meet the Prime Minister and other Ministers. That shows the degree of our anxiety. We are anxious, and we want action to reverse this dangerous trend.

  799
  This week the review of the South-East Development Plan was published, but it does not go far in acknowledging London's problems. It mentions the possibility of special development areas in London, although I regret that it still adheres to the concept of "growth areas" outside the green belt. It is possible that when this examination took place the nature of the current problem did not appear to be as serious as it is. Therefore this review of the South-East Development Plan is already out of date, because it has not taken proper cognisance of the growing problem of unemployment and loss of industry in Greater London.
  Although I acknowledge that the unemployment level of 3·8 per cent in Greater London is low by national standards, it varies throughout London. In some areas it is even a little below the national average and the general average for London, but in other areas it is as high as 82 per cent., in other words, higher than the national average.
  Greater London is a vast area where roughly one-fifth of the nation live, work and play. Therefore, it stands to reason that the problem is an overall one. That makes it all the more complex. In the east of London, in dockland, unemployment is high. In the area of Ealing it is not nearly so serious but it is growing. What is more, unemployment has a deleterious effect not only on the lives of ordinary people, but upon any family whose breadwinner or contributor to breadwinning has lost his job.
  It has an additional effect in this great city. It has an effect on our youth. Too many young people wander the streets and do not have enough to do. I love London, as probably do most hon. Members, but it can be a dangerous place for unsuspecting youths who, instead of learning a trade, being apprenticed or working, are at a loose end, wandering around this great city. I hope that my hon. Friend will take that feature of unemployment into account.
  In the London borough of Ealing can be found some very skilled trades such as glass-making, engineering and the manufacture of valves. All forms of science and technology are represented. Many of the firms engaged in those types of activities have closed down. As a result some of the specific training courses that
  800
  we run in our admirable comprehensive schools are superfluous because there are no jobs for those who complete them. At one time those industries, by sensible liaison with the education authority, provided the new skilled labour to replace those skilled people who retired. That is a serious aspect of the problem.
  I do not wish anxiety to move to crisis before action is taken. There is a need now for concerted effort by Ministers, constituency Members of all parties, the GLC and the London boroughs to stop this somewhat fearful trend, and not to wait until it builds up into a crisis before we unite to do something about it.
  Another aspect of the problem is that we have lost former industrial sites to what is called "industrial warehousing". Industry has moved out of London, some of it because it responded to appeals made by the last two Administrations, Labour and Conservative, to go to areas where unemployment was high. The magnet of London attracting industry has lost a great deal of its power.
  What is happening now in Greater London, with the great length of the River Thames, with its warehouses, barges and so on, and Heathrow Airport and another airport not very far away, is a mushrooming of warehouses. It is not the mushrooming of warehouses in itself about which I am alarmed. I am alarmed because they are being built on sites which once housed attractive industries employing skilled people.
  In my constituency, on the site of a factory that once employed 1,500 skilled men there is to be a large warehouse which will employ about 20 clerks and 30 fork-lift truck drivers. That story can be multiplied across London. That is another aspect of the decline of industry in Greater London. We do not want this London of ours to become a vast depository for depositories.
  I ask my hon. Friend to allow the GLC to have representation on the National Enterprise Board. I do not want to be fobbed off with an argument about a geographical basis. London has this problem because of geographical considerations of areas suffering from high unemployment in previous years.
  Unless something is done soon about London's industrial decline, it may become irreversible except at great cost,

  801
  which even the Treasury will not be able to afford. If London's industrial economy declines, so does London. That could have a grave psychological effect for our entire country.
  Arthur Mee, in his celebrated book "London—The Eternal City", wrote:
  "London will not be destroyed—it is the London of ages past—the London of ages to come."
  I promise my hon. Friend and my right hon. Friends who are involved in this problem that the London group of Labour Members, in concert with the borough councils and the GLC, are devising what we consider to be practical proposals and are determined to re-establish industrial London. We earnestly seek my hon. Friend's full co-operation. I believe that if my right hon. and hon. Friends will continue to give us the cooperation and help that we have had in the past, we shall solve the problem.
  That will be to the benefit of not only Greater London but the country as a whole.
  12.24 a.m.
  The Minister of State, Department of Industry (Mr. Gregor Mackenzie): My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Molloy) has raised tonight a subject which I know causes a great deal of concern to him and, indeed, to all of our colleagues who represent constituencies in the Greater London area. It is also a matter that has been troubling the GLC and a number of London boroughs. My hon. Friend will know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has had discussions in recent months with Sir Reg Goodwin and some of his colleagues. I, too, have had discussions, both formally and informally, with a great many Members who are concerned about the problems in London.
  My hon. Friend has often pointed out to me, both publicly and privately, the way in which his constituency has been affected by redundancies and factory closures in recent years. I am bound to say, however, that whilst Ealing has been particularly hard hit by the number of large employers who have closed down or moved out in the past 10 years, this is really only a part of major changes in the pattern of employment in South-East England which we have recently been experiencing.
  802
  Between 1961 and 1974, manufacturing employment in London declined by nearly half a million; or, to put it another way, about a third of London's jobs "disappeared" in that period. At the same time, in the rest of the South-East employment increased by some 900,000. About a quarter of these jobs were in manufacturing and about 700,000 in service industries.
  These very large changes in the distribution of employment have been taking place in a situation in which London's population has been declining rapidly whilst population in the rest of the South-East, to which Londoners have been moving, has been increasing. The employment changes are obviously related to the population trends, but whereas the decline in London's population has been well established for a number of decades, manufacturing employment has been falling for only the past 10 years or so.
  In that period the growth in the population of parts of South-East England—for example, the new towns, expanding towns, South Hampshire and the Home Counties—has made those areas more attractive locations for London industry. The movement of firms out of London has also been encouraged by the reduced availability of labour in London and its greater availability elsewhere. Despite these changes, however, London remains one of the most important industrial centres in the country.
  It is really not true to say—this is said by some although not by my hon. Friend tonight—that the Government's regional policies, which aim to encourage industrial movement to the assisted areas, are the cause of all the difficulties. As a result of my concern about London I recently asked my Department to study in depth the decline in industrial employment in London between 1966 and 1974. In that period manufacturing employment fell by 380,000. But only 27 per cent. of these jobs were lost as a result of firms moving from London to new factories in other parts of the country. Indeed only 9 per cent. were the result of moves to the assisted areas. On the other hand, nearly half the manufacturing employment lost resulted from the straightforward closure by firms of their London factories. Most of the rest was due to reduced employment in factories which still remain in production.

  803
  My hon. Friend will accept, I am sure, that many of the difficulties in which London firms find themselves are due to the present serious economic recession, and that once the economy revives—as it now shows signs of doing—industry in London will be the first to benefit. Nevertheless, I can assure him that I accept, and the Government accept, that there are factors at work which are making London less attractive to industry at the present time. My hon. Friend has mentioned some of these factors. They include old and inadequate premises, lack of room for expansion, labour shortages and rents and rates.
  The solution to some of these problems is in the hands of the GLC and the London boroughs. Other problems can only be solved over a period of years with the co-operation of many organisations and agencies. The Government are anxious to see London industry expand and invest, as we are anxious to see all British industry expanding and investing, and the measures we have introduced in recent months will, we trust, stimulate investment. These measures are, of control most sensitively.
  Some hon. Members have claimed that the Government are inhibiting industrial development in London by their operation of the IDC control. This is just not true. IDC control is an essential instrument available to the Government in promoting regional policies and encouraging appropriate firms to expand and develop in the assisted areas. But I assure my hon. Friend that we operate the IDC control most sensitively.
  Since 1971, about 94 per cent. of all IDC applications in London have been approved and no application has been turned down in London so far this year. My hon. Friend will remember because he took part in the debate at the time that my hon. Friend and predecessor, the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) told the House in February 1975 that no IDC application of less than 10,000 sq ft would be refused in London without having been seen personally by the Secretary of State. That system has been operating since then.
  After my hon. Friend and other Labour Members from London had raised the matter with me, I was able to announce to the House last month another relaxation of the IDC control which should be
  804
  of particular benefit to London industry. I am concerned about the number of empty and obsolete factories in the big cities, and the experimental scheme which we are introducing will permit IDCs to be issued—subject to certain conditions—for the speculative replacement of such buildings by modern industrial premises.
  Mr. Molloy: Will my hon. Friend not include in his consideration this appalling new term "industrial warehousing"? This is part of the threat for the future.
  Mr. Mackenzie: I understand the point my hon. Friend is making. He has raised it with me in regard to what is happening in his own constituency.
  The arrangements we have made in relation to IDCs should help industrial renewal and could lead to great improvements in industrial efficiency and working conditions. I hope that London industrialists and developers will take full advantage of the scheme.
  My hon. Friend has mentioned the high levels of unemployment in parts of London. It is true that the present total of 150,000 unemployed in London is bad, but we have to put it in perspective. We have to bear in mind the sheer size of London and the fact that there are more people in work in London than in the whole of Scotland and Wales put together. London's rate of unemployment of 3·7 per cent. is below the national average of 5·6 per cent., below Scotland at 6·8 per cent., and below Wales at 7·4 per cent. London also has a lower rate of unemployment than the rest of South-East England.
  I am often told, and my hon. Friend stressed this point, that there are black spots in London where unemployment is as high as in the development areas, and rates of 10 per cent. are often quoted to me. The Department of Employment does not publish separate unemployment rates for different parts of London, or for parts of other large cities. The amount of cross-travel from home to work by Londoners would make such figures quite misleading. But, of course, there are some parts of London where jobs are less readily available than others and some hon. Members claim that the employment difficulties in these areas are comparable with those in the development areas.

  805
  But the Government really must look at the national position. Other large cities in the assisted areas—Liverpool and Glasgow, for example—have very much higher unemployment than London. They also have their unemployment black spots as I know, because I represent one of them—but their black spots are far more numerous, with employment difficulties two or three times more acute. Moreover, the regions surrounding these cities do not have the same share of modern growth industries which exists in South-East England.
  The Government remain committed to regional policies which involve giving priority to the encouragement of new industrial development in the assisted areas, where employment problems are most acute. My honourable Friend will recognise, I am sure, that the incentive to industry to go to the development areas would soon lose their effect if similar incentives were given to firms to develop in London, and I cannot believe that any hon. Member would want us to abandon completely our regional policies.
  My hon. Friend expressed concern for the future of industry in his constituency and in adjoining constituencies. I cannot, of course, give advance assurances about whether particular factories are likely to remain open, expand, or contract, but I assure my honourable Friend that I shall continue to watch closely the changes at all major London establishments. We shall receive advance notice of any proposals that may give rise to serious redundancies in London, and we shall have the opportunity to consider whether rescue action by my Department is
  806
  appropriate. When considering this we do, of course, pay particular regard to the likely effect of redundancies or closures on the local unemployment situation—though we also have to consider whether any alternative plan might have an even more adverse effect on any establishments of the company concerned in other parts of the country.
  My hon. Friend raised the question of the possibility of a London Member serving on the National Enterprise Board. My hon. Friend has raised this subject with me both publicly and privately. The composition of the National Enterprise Board has to be broadly based to take account of the situation in all parts of the United Kingdom, assisted areas or not. I am sure that the members of the NEB take into consideration the problems of London.
  My hon. Friend will be pleased, as I am, that the Government have ensured that appropriate warning of industrial troubles has to be given in time for action to be taken. The NEB and the planning agreements will also strengthen our hand in anticipating and dealing with future industrial problems.
  I appreciate the concern and interest of my hon. Friend and all London Members of Parliament. I willingly give my hon. Friend the undertaking that Ministers will continue to co-operate with my hon. Friend and his colleagues, because, like him, we want to see a prosperous London.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at twenty-one minutes to One o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at three of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers— Read by the Lord Bishop of Birmingham

SOVIET FREIGHT CHARGES
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the result is yet known of inquiries into the freightage charges of cargo ships of the Soviet Union and whether any satisfactory action has been agreed which will meet the requirements of British ship owners for fair competitive tendering.
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, the noble Baroness will be aware that these matters are being pursued at home and with our friends abroad. Progress is being made, but I think it would be premature for me to go beyond that now.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDE: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. Is he aware that I did not know that the matter was being pursued but that I am glad to hear that it is? Can he give any information as to whether the Russians are likely to agree? If not, may I ask for an under-taking that when the latest guest from Russia comes to this country it will be put to him in no uncertain terms that British shipping requires fair competitive tendering?
Lord WINTER BOTTOM: My Lords, as the noble Baroness knows, because I have told her on a couple of occasions, Britain cannot act alone in this matter. OECD is engaged in discussions with us, as is the Consultative Shipping Group, which is comprised of 12 European nations, plus Japan. When we have formulated a common attitude, doubtless an approach will be made to the Russians and. indeed, to any other nation which is
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cutting rates to an uneconomic level. The second part of the supplementary question of the noble Baroness is a matter for the Foreign Office and not for me.

AIRLINES AND PASSENGER OVERBOOKING
3.8 p.m.
Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether in order to clarify their Answer given on 19th February (cols. 566/7), they will confirm that they have decided that action on the problem of airline overbooking in relation to Section 14(1) of the Trade Descriptions Act 1968 will not be taken prior to consideration of the Report on this Act expected from the Director General of Fair Trading in the course of the summer; and if so whether their statement that the Civil Aviation Authority hopes to have a scheme dealing with overbooking policy in operation by the summer means that the Authority are exempt from this decision.
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for giving me this opportunity to dispel any misunderstanding. I can confirm that the Government do not propose any action before the Report has been considered. Equally, I should make it clear that as matters stand we see no need for such action. Naturally, if the Review Committee makes any proposals bearing on overbooking, or indeed if the noble Baroness has any specific ideas, these will be considered; but we should not regard this as sufficient reason for the Authority to delay the introduction of its proposed compensation scheme. Deliberate overselling is not the only cause of overbooking, and it is therefore clearly in the consumer interest to introduce compensation for off loading as soon as practicable.
Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY: My Lords, while believing that the Minister has tried to clarify the position, may I ask whether I would be correct in assuming that his Answer to the Question on the Order Paper is, Yes, and that the

1403
Civil Aviation Authority and the Department of Trade are in favour of an overbooking policy? May I ask him to confirm that the matter of the small print on the back of airline tickets is solely for the airlines concerned?
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, as I have tried to make clear in earlier Answers— indeed, as my noble friend the Leader of the House has pointed out—it is not a question of being in favour of an overbooking policy, although the air lines and the Government are in favour of a full booking policy. Unfortunately, through human error and what I believe is called "the free sales system ", one cannot always ensure that the number of passengers wishing to fly on a certain aircraft is equal to the number of seats on that aircraft.
Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY: My Lords, without wishing to pursue the matter unduly and while appreciating that the noble Lord is in very deep water over this matter—doubtless it is difficult to find a correct definition of overbooking which does not mean overbooking—may I ask him to answer the last part of my supplementary question, about which he was good enough to write to me? Do I understand that the matter of the small print on the back of an airline ticket is solely for the airline concerned?
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: I do not think I am in deep water, my Lords; I think I am in thin air, which is not quite the same thing. The matter of how an airline ticket is printed must be the responsibility of the airline, but presumably this is something which the Director General of Fair Trading might consider.

CONSUMER ADVICE CENTRES
Baroness MACLEOD of BORVE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many consumer advice centres were in operation up to the end of 1975, how many people are employed in them, and what is the total cost to that date.
Lord ORAM: My Lords, at the end of 1975, 74 consumer advice centres were in operation with a total staff of about 250. The cumulative cost of the centres to that date cannot be estimated, but local authorities' current expenditure in England and Wales on consumer advice services, which are not all provided through centres, is estimated at £1.9 million this financial year.
Baroness MACLEOD of BORVE: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his reply, may I be the first to congratulate him on his first essay at the Dispatch Box and wish him well? May I draw his attention to the fact that already expenditure has exceeded the amount of the grants which the Government have given to the local authorities? Are the Government aware that these consumer advice centres, which are sprouting up in large numbers ail over the country, are in the main an unnecessary waste of Government money and that the ratepayers who are having to foot the bill in many of the local authority areas are deeply resentful of the fact that they are now having to pay for these centres?
Lord ORAM: My Lords, while I thank the noble Baroness for her personal welcome, may I suggest that she is a little confused about the figures? The £1.9 million which I quoted in the original Answer relates to the amount which is being spent in the current financial year on consumer advice services in general. The noble Baroness probably has in mind the £1.4 million in the grants scheme for setting up centres as from the beginning of the year. That is a different figure and it has not been exceeded.
In regard to the noble Baroness's general suggestion that this money is not well spent, I suggest that she needs to look, as in all matters of public expenditure, at both sides of the balance sheet. There are very considerable benefits from the work of these centres, both directly to consumers who recover compensation, and also in a much more general but nevertheless valuable educational sense.
Baroness MACLEOD of BORVE: My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that while the Government were paying through the taxpayer the local residents were happy with the situation, but that

1405
now that the ratepayers are paying for this service, in many areas they feel that it is a waste of their money?
Lord ORAM: My Lords, the information we have does not bear out what the noble Baroness said. The number of complaints about the adoption of the scheme is very small; on the other hand, the welcome which has been given to it by local authorities and their ratepayers is considerable.
Viscount HANWORTH: My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that these centres have done and are doing a great deal in the very difficult area of the lower paid, who badly need advice when buying goods?
Lord ORAM: My Lords, I most certainly agree with the noble Viscount. Many people—an average of 8,000 per year per centre—are receiving really good advice. It is an excellent service.
Viscount AMORY: My Lords, can the noble Lord tell us under what system of priorities the proposed additional number of consumer advice centres can be fitted into essential public expenditure; and is he aware that, as a young bachelor of average competence, I require no consumer advice whatever?
Lord ORAM: My Lords, many married people with children do need advice, however. The new centres are needed to serve areas which are not yet covered. The proposed new centres will extend these valuable consumer services for the benefit of no fewer than 10 million members of the population. That is an important thing to do.
Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE: My Lords, is the noble Lord in a position to say, however well-intentioned the scheme may be, what efforts the Government are making to ascertain its cost effectiveness? What is the advantage in terms of money to the consumer in terms of money spent by the tax and ratepayers?
Lord ORAM: My Lords, I could give the noble and learned Lord a number of examples but I shall content myself—and, I hope, him—with one. The Croydon centre, for example, which opened in September 1974, was used by more than 28,000 people during the first
1406
12 months. The amount of compensation received as a result of this centre's intervention on post-shopping complaints was over £35,000. Comparable and indeed greater figures have been recorded for other centres. These are real benefits to set against the costs involved.
Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY: My Lords, is the Minister aware that many of us are surprised at the criticisms apparently coming from the other side of the House of these consumer advice centres? Is he aware that many of us in the consumer movement feel that the centres are of great value and that, with due deference to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham, it is not only the money saved which is important but also the advice which is given to the consumers who go to these centres, and that many of us hope that the numbers will be greatly extended?
Lord ORAM: Yes, my Lords.

LOCAL AUTHORITIES: COUNCIL MEETINGS
Lord WALLACE of COSLANY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether local authorities have powers to set time limits for council meetings and to provide that thereafter all policy decisions shall be taken without debate or vote.
Baroness STEDMAN: My Lords, local authorities may take decisions only by vote, but they have powers, under the Local Government Act 1972, to make Standing Orders for the regulation of their proceedings and business. There appears to be no reason in law, therefore, to prevent a local authority from setting a time limit on debates, but decisions can be taken only by a majority vote of the members present and voting.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANY: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the London borough of Bexley has adopted a guillotine procedure and that, at its last meeting, important decisions were

1407
passed without comment or vote, including considerable rent increases? Would my noble friend agree that it is most regrettable that the Parliamentary guillotine procedure should be introduced at local authority level, where democracy must be seen to be in action?
Baroness STEDMAN: My Lords, I am aware of the problems of the London borough of Bexley and they have been debated in another place. My right honourable friend the Minister for Planning and Local Government then made his view plain but, subject to the statutory requirements—and I have referred to the fact that decisions require a majority vote—it is right that the procedure of debate and details of that kind should be left to the judgment of the council concerned. The Government have no power to intervene in such matters and I am sure that it would not be right for them to seek such powers.
Baroness WARD of NORTH TYNESIDE: My Lords, can the noble Baroness say whether there have been any complaints about this procedure? Is she aware that I can see certain dangers, though, as in everything else, there are good as well as bad sides? Would the noble Baroness agree that it might be desirable that, a little later on, there should be a full assessment of the scheme to see how it is working? Would it be a good thing if this House and another place could know whether there have been any complaints and whether there are any real difficulties involved?
Baroness STEDMAN: My Lords, that is taking the issue rather wider than the original Question. But the local authorities Standing Orders on procedure are not subject to Ministerial approval. However, there are model Standing Orders which have been drawn up jointly by the former Ministry of Housing and Local Government in conjunction with the local authority associations, and they are published for the guidance and use of the individual authorities. The model which is in use at the moment was drafted in 1963, and the revision of that model draft Standing Orders has been delayed to give the new local authorities time to settle down. But I am sure that my right honourable friend will bear in mind the points made by the noble Baroness.
Lord SLATER: My Lords, I do not know where Bexley is, but I am given to understand from the questioner that it is somewhere in the United Kingdom. Does my noble friend agree that it is right and proper that local authorities ought to be left alone to produce their own Standing Orders on local government administration, instead of having their authority trespassed upon in this House by Question and Answer?
Baroness STEDMAN: That is what I said, my Lords.
Lord PANNELL: My Lords, will the noble Baroness accept from me, as one of the inhabitants of the benighted borough of Bexley, that the citizens there sometimes need to be saved from their borough council?
Lord WALLACE of COSLANY: My Lords, in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Slater, may I ask the nobel Baroness whether she is aware that I am not only a resident of the London borough of Bexley, but I am a ratepayer, too, and I pay my rates regularly, often under great protest?
Baroness STEDMAN: Yes, my Lords; I was so aware.
Lord FOOT: My Lords, would the noble Baroness give us an answer to a more general aspect of this matter? Let us suppose that a local authority, whether it be in Bexley or anywhere else, comes to a decision without there being a debate or a vote. If, subsequently, the officers of that authority implement that decision without it ever having been carried to a vote, might they not be in danger of being held to be ultra vires in the performance of their duties, if the matter had never been backed by a democratic decision?
Baroness S'TEDMAN: Yes, my Lords; they would be contravening the provisions of Schedule 12 to the Local Government Act 1972. Paragraph 39(1) of the Schedule says:
"subject to the provisions of any enactment (including any enactment in this Act) all questions coming or arising before a local authority shall be decided by a majority of the members of the authority present and voting thereon at a meeting of the authority."
Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE: My Lords, I am not sure that I followed the various answers

1409
given by the noble Baroness. But is there not a distinction between decisions taken without debate and decisions taken without vote? Those of us who have been familiar with the proceedings of another place know of many cases in which the guillotine falls and decisions are taken without debate. But I do not remember occasions when decisions have been taken without vote. I should have thought that decisions taken without vote might be a matter for legal questioning in the courts, whereas decisions taken without debate are a matter for the Standing Orders.
Baroness STEDMAN: Yes, my Lords; I suspect that the noble and learned Lord is right. But when the matter was raised in another place the reference was to decisions being taken "on the nod ". My noble friend refers to decisions being taken without debate or vote, and that would be contravening the Act.

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: RETIREMENT
3.24 p.m.
The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES (The Earl of Listowel): My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like to make a personal Statement. I wish to inform the House that I intend to retire from the Office of Chairman of Committees in October of this year. I hope on another occasion to have an opportunity to thank the House and all who have assisted me in my work.
The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Shepherd): My Lords, the House has just heard from my noble friend Lord Listowel, the Chairman of Committees, of his intention to cease being Chairman of Committees in October of this year. My noble friend says that he wishes to have an opportunity to express his appreciation, but I am sure that it would be the wish of this House, on a more formal occasion, to express its appreciation of the very long and dedicated service which he has rendered to us not only as Chair man of Committees, but as an ordinary Member of the House, and in sitting on the Front Benches of each side of the House.
Some weeks ago my noble friend intimated to me his intention to make
1410
this Statement, and we both felt that it would be right that we should take such steps as would facilitate an easy transition from the outgoing Chairman to the new Chairman, bearing in mind that the next Session may see an extraordinary weight of private legislation, which is very much the responsibility of the Chairman of Committees.
Therefore, we thought it right to consider who I, as Leader of the House, should propose later in the year as Chairman of Committees for the next Session. In the period since this matter was intimated to me I have had an opportunity of consulting not only the Front Benchers, but also the representatives of the Cross-Benchers, and those noble Lords who, in one way or another, represent Members who sit behind the Front Benches. I personally have also consulted 30 other individual Peers. As a consequence of that consultation it would be my intention, when the time comes for the appointment of a new Chairman, to suggest to your Lordships' House that the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, would be suitable to us as Chairman of Committees. Knowing the affection which the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, has for this House, and the affection in which we ourselves hold him, I have no doubt at all that he would have our wholehearted support as Chairman of Committees.
Lord CARRINGTON: My Lords, the House will be grateful for what the noble Lord the Leader of the House has said, and for the indications he has given as to what he intends to do in the autumn. But the House will feel sad about what the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, has told us, and we shall feel very regretful that in the autumn we shall become deprived of the distinguished services which he has rendered to your Lordships' House. Most, indeed I hope all, your Lordships will welcome the indication given by the noble Lord the Leader of the House that he intends to propose my noble friend Lord Aberdare as successor to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel. I must say that I view that with mixed feelings, because it will mean that we on this Bench will be deprived of the services of my noble friend. He tells me that very shortly he will feel obliged to dissociate himself from the controversial and partisan crowd with which he now sits, and will move over to

1411
the Bench on my left where I see two ex-Speakers, the ex-Head of the Foreign Office, and the Lord Chamberlain. No doubt my noble friend will feel that is better company than that which he now keeps.
There will be another occasion to pay tribute to the services which the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, has given to this House, and to give a welcome to my noble friend Lord Aberdare. In the meantime, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, for what he said.
Lord BYERS: My Lords, from these Benches we should like to endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, has said. It is indeed a sad occasion, when we hear from the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, that he is to give up after so many years of distinguished service. I, too, view the appointment of the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, with mixed feelings. I am delighted that he will be leaving the Conservative Benches and that he will be joining the more impartial atmosphere of the Cross-Benches. But in the meantime, if he wishes to continue as Deputy Leader of the Conservative Opposition of this House we shall certainly have no objection to that, and we will welcome him wholeheartedly as Chairman of Committees.
Lord MAYBRAY-KING: My Lords, it is unusual for a Member who sits on the Cross-Benches to speak for anybody but himself, but I am certain that on this occasion the Cross-Benchers will want to be associated with the tributes paid to the Lord Chairman, the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, and to extend a welcome to the new Lord Chairman.

ENERGY BILL [H.L.]
3.30 p.m.
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Lovell-Davis, I beg to introduce a Bill to make further provision with respect to the nation's resources and use of energy. I beg to move that this Bill be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read la.—(Lord Strabolgi.)
On Question, Bill read la, and to be printed.

BAIL BILL [H.L.]
The MINISTER of STATE, HOME OFFICE (Lord Harris of Greenwich): My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to make provision in relation to bail in or in connection with criminal proceedings in England and Wales, to make it an offence to agree to indemnify sureties in criminal proceedings, to make provision for legal aid limited to questions of bail in certain cases, to extend the powers of coroners to grant bail and for connected purposes. I beg to move that this Bill be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read la, —(Lord Harris of Greenwich.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of H.ASTOE: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the House, I beg to move the Motion standing in his name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 37 (Arrangement of the Order Paper) be dispensed with this day for the purpose of taking the Motion standing in his name before the Committee stage of the Water Charges Bill.—(Baroness Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

STATUTE LAW REVISION (NORTHERN IRELAND) BILL [H.L.]
The LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord Elwyn-Jones): My Lords, the Joint Select Committee on Consolidation Bills have made six Amendments to the Schedule to this Bill in order to bring it into conformity with its long Title, and in their Report they expressed the view that there is no further point to which the attention of Parliament should be drawn. I understand that no further Amendments have been set down, and that no noble Lord has indicated a wish to move a manuscript Amendment or to speak in Committee. Therefore, unless any noble Lord objects, I beg to move that the Order of Recommitment be discharged.
Moved, That the Order of Recommitment be discharged.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SHOPS (HOLIDAY RESORTS—SUNDAY TRADING) BILL [H.L.]
Baroness PHILLIPS: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Baroness Phillips.)
On Question, Bill read 3a.
Baroness PHILLIPS: My Lords, in moving that this Bill do now pass, I should like to thank all noble Lords who have given it a welcome and support, particularly the Government Chief Whip, who has enabled it to pass so swiftly through the House. I beg to move that this Bill do now pass.
Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(Baroness Phillips.)
On Question, Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

PREVENTION OF TERRORISM (TEMPORARY PROVISIONS) BILL
Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

PARLIAMENTARY PRACTICE AND PROCEDURE
3.34 p.m.
Lord SHEPHERD Lord SHEPHERD rose to move, That this House takes note of the proposal in the Queen's Speech for a major review of the practice and procedure of Parliament. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion that stands in my name on the Order Paper. The House will recall that the Government gave an undertaking in the Queen's Speech at the beginning of this Session that they would initiate a major review of the practice and procedure of Parliament. My right honourable friend the Lord President of the Council arranged an Adjournment Debate in another place on the 2nd February, when Members of that House had an opportunity to make their views known. The object of my Motion today is to give
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a similar opportunity to Members of this House.
What the Government have in mind is that the review should be conducted by Select Committees in each House and that, like the European Scrutiny Committees, these should have power to hold joint meetings where such a course would be mutually advantageous. If the House agrees—and I hope it will—to establish a Select Committee parallel to that proposed for the other place, it will be for the Committee of this House to interpret its terms of reference as it sees fit. My purpose this afternoon is to make some suggestions as to the general direction which any such inquiry might take.
Before doing so, however, I want to make it quite clear, as my right honourable friend the Lord President did in another place, that the Government consider that two matters should fall outside the scope of this inquiry. First, it should not be concerned with the composition or powers of this House, or with the relations between the Houses. Secondly, Parliamentary electoral arrangements should be primarily a matter for a Speaker's Conference. Apart from those exceptions, the inquiry will have more than enough to consider, especially if it ranges beyond the details of the internal procedure of this House. As the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, said in a procedure debate in 1972, we should "guard against becoming too introspective about these procedural matters ". We already have our Sessional Procedure Committee, which serves a very useful purpose in enabling us to examine and sort out all types of procedural difficulties quickly; and I think that here we have an advantage over the other place, whose Procedure Committee functions on a different principle.
The House will recall that, in addition to the routine work of the Procedure Committee, in 1971 there was a Working Group set up by the then Leader of the House, Lord Jellicoe. That Group, of which I was a member, and which was presided over by the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, examined the procedure of the House in depth, and to it I think we owe the outstandingly successful procedure innovation of the Short Debate. Viewing our procedure in the light of the work of the Procedure Committee and the Working Group, I think I can say without

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undue complacency that the House functions very well within its existing framework, except, perhaps, in abnormal times like June and July. I would suggest today that we should scrutinise that framework itself; that we should look beyond the traditional internal procedures of the House, and ask whether Parliament itself requires fundamental structural changes to enable it to perform more effectively in the last quarter of the 20th century.
Quite apart from any pressure for reform generated from within the two Houses, we must acknowledge that there are two external factors which make desirable a review of the kind proposed. On the one hand, Britain is now an established member of the European Community. On the other, we are faced with the need to make satisfactory devolutionary arrangements for Scotland and Wales and, perhaps, for other parts of the United Kingdom. The role of Parliament at Westminster must be reconsidered in the light of these developments. But we must also recognise that this reconsideration will be taking place at a time when the Government are straining every nerve to contain public expenditure, and reforms, as we all know, tend to prove costly.
I hope I may be forgiven for saying that I think that the country gets excellent value from the House of Lords. Its total annual cost is only £3.6 million a year. I would suggest that this compares very favourably with the suggested £20 million that is estimated as the cost of the Scottish and Welsh Assemblies. We must not forget, therefore, the question of cost. Some changes which we might like to adopt may have to be postponed, but we should consider any suggestions for implementation as and when circumstances permit. During my speech I will go over some ideas which might be considered by the Select Committee, but I would emphasise—and re-emphasise—that these suggestions are personal ones, and that there is no commitment either by the Government or by any of my noble friends who sit on the Front Bench. The object of the debate, however, is not to hear what I have to say, but rather to give noble Lords an opportunity of suggesting what they think this review might do. I shall be listening with interest to
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the contribution of all those who are taking part.
In opening the debate in the Commons, my right honourable friend the Lord President said that:
" the centre of much of the criticism of Parliamentary democracy lies in the relationship between the Executive and the Legislature, between the Government and Parliament ".
I should like to add, following the Renton and Lord Justice Scarman Reports, a third dimension: the relationship between the Government, Parliament and the courts. It may be that the proposed committee will not wish to entertain that extra dimension, but we should not forget the role of the courts in our Constitution when we come to consider the practice and procedure of Parliament.
The Renton Committee on the Preparation of Legislation expressed views on this. They encouraged the use of statements of principle and broad general rules in legislation, and so raised questions about the extent to which Parliament is willing to trust the courts to interpret its intentions.
I do not for one moment believe that the Renton Committee put forward this proposal in order to make life easier for the Government and more difficult for the official Opposition or for Back Benchers generally, and this is certainly by no means what I have in mind; nor is it the view of the Government. But I do suggest that any proposal to save Parliament from the increasing burden of over-elaborate legislation should be looked at sympathetically in the course of this inquiry.
Another solution to the problem of over-elaborate primary legislation is more delegated or secondary legislation. I appreciate that this at once raises a number of difficult questions, not least whether delegated legislation should be subject to amendment. I would emphasise that I am not personally advocating either that Parliament should place more trust in the courts, or that it should agree to further delegated legislation. But I do suggest that this is the kind of large question which needs to be examined if Parliament, and in particular the Back Bencher, is to have time to look at policy in the pre-legislative stage instead of concentrating on the scrutiny of the small print after a Bill has been presented.
An important task which I would commend to the Committee is an examination of the lessons to be drawn from the experience of the European Communities Committee. I think that this has been one of our successes. The House owes a great debt of gratitude to the Principal Deputy Chairman of Committees the noble Baroness, Lady Tweedsmuir, and all those noble Lords who have devoted so much time to the work of the Committee and its Sub-Committees. I should like to repeat words which I have used in this House before, that the House works as well as it does because
" noble Lords, most of them extremely busy people, feel that it is worth while giving their time to come here "—
and, I should add, without pay. It is quite remarkable that so many busy and distinguished Members of the House do most conscientiously undertake this extremely exacting work.
It would not be fair to single out any particular sub-committee, but noble Lords have only to look at their composition to see what a formidable array of talent and experience this House has deployed in the scrutiny of European legislation. I think that I ought to say in passing that we might show our gratitude to them in a positive way by making regular provision for the discussion of their excellent Reports— perhaps one Wednesday a month might be set aside for this purpose, as recommended by the Maybray-King Committee. I would suggest that our practice of having two short debates for Back-Benchers should be followed; so that, in addition to the Wednesday for balloted debates, we might have two short debates once a month on reports from the European Communities Committee and its Sub-Committees.
The experience of the European Communities Committee has, I think, two lessons to teach us. In the first place, it has brought us into contact with the process of Continental law-making which we should not be too proud or too insular to consider. I will be saying more about this later in my speech. Second, the Committees have shown us that our committee system is capable of useful development. Two years ago, I think that we should have been surprised that as many as 66 Members of the House would be actively involved in this way.
This leads me to wonder whether there is scope for the appointment of specialist committees in this House to cover the activities of certain Government Departments. This is an area where I think we should make strenuous efforts to co-operate with and to complement the other place. As I said in my speech on the Second Reading of the Trade Union and Labour Relations Bill on 10th February:
" I see the contribution of the British Parliament, with these two Chambers, to our democratic society as one of co-operation and the sharing of knowledge and experience in a positive way to solve the critical problems that confront the nation. I applaud the increasing co-operation between the two Houses and I am convinced that we are only at the formative stage of that co-operation ".—[Official Report; col. 15.]
My noble friend Lord Shinwell raised the possibility of a joint committee on defence in a Question in this House on 18th February, and I said then that this was a matter which could properly be considered by the proposed Committee. It was also suggested in the White Paper on House of Lords Reform in 1968 that the law and the arts were areas which might also be covered by specialist committees.
My Lords, one of the most intractable problems requiring consideration is the Government programme. Cynics have suggested that this inquiry is simply a cover to get yet more Government legislation through Parliament. That simply is not the case. My right honourable friend the Lord President and I are particularly anxious to alleviate the lot of Members of both Houses and to enable them to work more effectively. I, for one, should certainly like the Committee to examine the question whether it would be possible to devise a more satisfactory timetable for the Session. I feel that something must be done in particular to relieve the intolerable pressure that builds up every year in this House immediately before the Summer Recess and in the spill-over in the autumn. I am very conscious that some Members of both Houses had only a fortnight last Summer when they could have been on holiday with their children before the summer school holidays came to an end.
I know that the Parliamentary timetable was considered by a Committee in another place as recently as 1968 under the chairmanship of my noble friend Lord Northfield, and they proposed a most

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interesting solution—but nothing came of it. Clearly, this is a matter primarily for another place because, as my noble friend said:
" the pattern of the Session is determined to a considerable extent by the progress of financial business ".
Even so, it is of prime importance to us in this House, and is one very good reason why I most strongly urge noble Lords to accept my proposal for an inquiry by this House to complement the one in another place. We must not let our interests go by default.
I am convinced that we should make more use of Committees off the Floor of the House for the consideration of Public Bills. The Renton Committee have recommended that there should be a Scottish Public Bill Committee in this House. In my opinion, more Bills which are of a complex and technical character should be considered in such Committees. In my view, the process of debate on the Floor of the House is unsuitable for matters of great detail, and what is needed particularly is the expertise of a limited number of Members, and the opportunity for Ministers to be in closer contact with their advisers than is possible here. I merely put this point forward to ensure one can achieve better legislation in these highly technical matters.
I referred earlier to the processes of Continental law-making. All of us who are familiar with them cannot help but notice the contrasts with our own procedures. In the case of the EEC, proposals arc thoroughly scrutinised before they are finally embodied in instruments. Under our traditional procedures, the texts of Bills are finalised before they are presented to Parliament. Of course, Amendments are possible. But, in the case of Government legislation, the Government have usually taken up a particular position and they find it difficult to be flexible without bringing their reputation for firmness and decisiveness into question.
The Government often take considerable pains to consult other bodies before introducting a Bill, but Parliament itself is rarely consulted at this stage. It is true that the Government often publish Green Papers on which they collect the views of Parliament by debate before
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policy hardens. Recent examples are the Green Papers on Devolution and Direct Elections. The Government certainly intend to continue this practice, but this may not be going far enough and serious attention might well be given to devising some form of preliminary procedure for domestic legislation similar to that found in Europe.
As to the other side of the coin, we might also look for ways of making Parliament aware of the views of interested parties who want to comment on aspects of business before the House. Members of both Houses are faced with an in creasing mass of information which they have to try to digest before they can expect to make meaningful decisions. We must make sure that they have the best available means of identifying, retrieving and classifying this material. As a step in this direction, an Information Office was established in the Parliament Office in this House some 18 months ago. A pilot scheme has now been initiated for the introduction of a computer-based information retrieval system for ready access to the growing volume of EEC secondary legislation, including the location of documents and information about the progress of legislative proposals.
As my right honourable friend the Lord President said in a debate in the other place when speaking of that place:
" If it were decided to adopt such a system permanently, it would be possible to extend it to various aspects of United Kingdom legislation and other forms of information ". (Official Report, Commons, 2/2/76, col. 972.)
Perhaps I might also say that the Library Sub-Committee are now actively considering whether there are any improvements which could be made in the services which the Library provides to Members of the House in order to enable them to carry out their duties more effectively. The proposed Committee will, no doubt, bear these developments in mind during the course of their inquiry. Another area of activity which I expect to be raised in this debate is Private Bill procedure, but I see that the Chairman of Committees will be intervening today and so I leave it to him. I look forward to hearing what he has to say about this. It is a matter on which the whole House will listen with deep concern.
I should conclude by saying that I have only thrown out some ideas to start the

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debate going in this House; they are my own views. I am not committed to any solution but I have tried to indicate some of the questions which I hope this inquiry will try to answer. I will listen carefully to the opinions which are put forward this afternoon, and will of course be very happy to receive the suggestions of any noble Lord, whether expressed in the debate today or later. I will take them fully into account when considering the terms of reference and the composition of the Committee (which will in any case go to the Committee of Selection), provided that it is the desire of the House, as I hope it is, that it should be set up.
The noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, in a valuable chapter on the House of Lords in his recent book, said that in any well-tuned Parliamentary system there is a need and a place for a third element besides efficient Government and the operation of representative democracy. "This third element ", he said, "is the bringing to bear of informed or expert public opinion ". He went on to say that it is now one of the principal roles of the Lords to provide a forum in which public opinion can take shape and be made known. This proposed inquiry might well bear in mind the wise words of the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, and they may be able to find ways in which this House can more usefully serve the nation by making better use of the undoubted and various expertise of its Members. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House takes note of the proposal in the Queen's speech for a major review of the practice and procedure of Parliament.—(Lord Shepherd.)
3.55 p.m.
Lord CARRINGTON: My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader of the House moves in a mysterious way. His whole speech seems to be devoted to proposing that a Committee should be set up, but he is asking your Lordships only to take note of the proposals in the gracious Speech. Had he asked your Lordships to agree to the setting up of a Committee, I do not think there would be anybody in the House who would have opposed it, I suppose that we would have supported it with varying degrees of conviction or scepticism, but certainly we would not have opposed it.
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I am one of those who have become a little sceptical about the series of Committees which we have had over these many years regarding our future and our procedures. Nevertheless, I am quite sure that if there is to be a Committee in the House of Commons there should also be a Committee in the House of Lords, and that any matters that are raised which affect Parliament should be discussed by both Committees and not just by the House of Commons. Your Lordships still have an important role to play in our Constitution.
I imagine one of the reasons why the Government proposed in the gracious Speech the establishment of such a Committee was to try to allay the unease which has been increasingly felt about our Parliamentary system and affairs. I suspect that the Government will be mistaken if they suppose that a body which looks at the practice and procedure of Parliament will do much to soothe away those anxieties, because they stem from a much deeper source than worry about Parliamentary practice and procedure. There can be no doubt that the power of the Executive has grown very considerably in recent years at the expense of the power of Parliament and, in particular, at the expense of the power of the House of Commons.
My noble friend Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone has spoken on more than one occasion of an elected dictatorship and it seems, broadly speaking, true that once a Government are elected on a Manifesto which practically nobody has read, there is very little that the House of Commons or House of Lords can do to influence the Executive or alter the course of events. The Whip is a powerful and painful instrument, and most people have a keen sense of personal politicial survival. It seems to me that what is needed is not to make it easier for Government to pass legislation—and I was glad to hear what the noble Lord the Leader of the House said—but to make it much more difficult. Almost the only weapon which an Opposition has is time. The prospect that a Government Committee would make proposals to ease a Government's problems fills me with the gravest possible alarm. There is far too much legislation already. No body would be worse off—and most of us would be a great deal better off—if

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any Government's legislation and legislative programme were reduced by about 75 per cent. Indeed, I sometimes think that a Party which went to the country on the basis that for the next five years it would pass no Bills but would spend its days repealing a number of Bills already on the Statute Book, would sweep the country with a landslide majority. But if an Opposition is to have any meaning—and in our constitution it should—then it must have an effective way of being a check on the Executive. In these past years I do not think that has always been the case.
Never having been a Member of the other place, I would not be so impertinent as to comment on their procedures except to say, as an outsider in the presence of two ex-Speakers, that the House of Commons seem to be in much greater need of a Committee than we do.
Our procedures are flexible. We are capable of taking account of the unexpected. I doubt whether our procedures can really be very much altered, in that respect, for the better. There are, of course, matters which should be examined; for example, the amount of time which we spend on European secondary legislation and the scrutiny of Statutory Instruments. I am quite sure that the Committee, when it is set up, should look at this question of the "bunching "of business at the end of the Session, particularly in July. Incidentally, the noble Lord the Leader of the House might perhaps be prepared to tell your Lordships whether the under taking recently given that no major legislation will be introduced into the House of Commons after Easter still holds good. I hope it does because otherwise we shall be in serious trouble here again this summer.
During these last few years we in this House have had an unprecedented number of Life Peers. It seems to me that if the Prime Minister—whose 60th birth day it is today and we congratulate him—would like to make a resolution, it should be to the effect that for the next five years, if he is still in office, he makes no further Peers. If creations of Life Peers continue at the rate we have seen during the last 15 years, we shall very soon have to take it in turns to come into this House!
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The very flexibility of our procedures for those who are used to a rather more rigid discipline in another place or who are perhaps totally unused to Parliamentary procedures, makes it possible to alter the whole character of this House and affect its very purpose, which is revisionary and representing a forum in which affairs can be discussed. The fact that we have no chairman and very few rules and that we are a very tolerant and not very Party political body can, when we reach the size and numbers that we have now, create problems which would have been unheard of a few years ago. I hope that none of your Lordships will think me discourteous, or think that I am seeking to do anything except help to improve the conduct of our Business, when I suggest that we should all understand that unless we act with a certain amount of restraint and forbearance we shall inevitably see this House changing into something much more like the House of Commons. I, for one, should greatly regret such a step, because it would alter the whole character of this House, whose whole purpose and powers are totally dissimilar from those of another place.
When I first came into this House—a great number of years ago now—the House really did keep order itself. Members of your Lordships' House, whether on the Front Bench or on the Back Bench, used to intervene on points of order when they thought it was necessary. Too often today it is left to the Leader of the House, who is put in the invidious position of having to check noble Lords while at the same time trying to get Government Business through in this House. The Leader of the House should not be a pseudo-Chairman. He is the Leader for the Government, and it is for the House itself to rebuke those who have gone out side its rules.
My Lords, I apologise for having wandered from the Motion before us. I think that I probably speak for all my noble friends behind me when I say that we have no objection whatever to the formation of a Committee. We do not think there is all that much wrong with the procedures of the House, but we believe that, if there is to be an alteration in the procedure of Parliament or of this House, we in this House should be consulted, as well as the House of

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Commons, and that the object of any such review should not be to make life easier for the Government but to make Parliament more effective in the interests of good government and Parliamentary democracy.
4.4 p.m.
Lord BYERS: My Lords, inevitably I shall follow fairly closely the line taken by the noble Lord, Lord Carrington. I think this is inevitable for anybody who plays an intimate part in the work of this House. As the noble Lord the Leader of the House said, it is now five years since the Working Group—on which he and I both served under the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, and the noble Earl, Lord Perth—looked at some aspects of the working of this House. We reported accordingly, and I am happy to say that quite a number of our proposals were accepted as a result of the report which was made. Therefore, I am not totally convinced that we need to examine our procedures once again. But that is for the House to decide and, if it should so decide, the committee will have full support from these Benches.
If such an examination were to take place, I would suggest that it would be right to bear in mind the following points. First, we should never lose sight of the very real value of our second Chamber in the constitutional structure of this country, even in its unreformed state. Incidentally, I regret bitterly that that reform did not go through, for reasons which I need not go into, because I think the House would have been all the better for it. Nevertheless, even in its unreformed state it has a very important part to play, and despite the onslaughts which are made on it from time to time, I believe that it plays a vital part in revising and initiating legislation and producing informed discussion on major topics which it is almost impossible to have debated in the atmosphere of confrontation politics which exists in the other place at the present time.
I should also like to follow the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, in saying that in any examination I hope we do nothing to restrict the flexibility with which this House is able to conduct its Business. For those of us who have come from another place, this is one of the most remarkable features of this Chamber. This flexibility is of value to the Government and to the
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other Parties; it is of value to outside interests, whose cause can be pleaded on the Floor of this House at any stage during the progress of a measure, and Bills can be much more easily amended here. All Amendments can be discussed, unlike in the other place, where they are subject to selection.
In addition to this flexibility of procedure, we have, as the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, said, our unique system of keeping order without the authority of a chairman or Speaker. I hope we shall continue, as a House, to keep our own order. But, my Lords, this means vigilance on the part of every Member to ensure that the wishes of the House as a whole are quickly recognised and quickly respected. Every time the Leader of the House has to get up and act as a referee, this represents a failure on behalf of this House as a whole to keep its own order. I hope that we shall all recognise this, and I believe that we must preserve this unique and flexible system whereby we can keep our own order, because I do not believe it occurs in any other Chamber in the world.
Thirdly, I would say that the overriding problem at the moment is one affecting both Houses and their relationship to one another. This is the allocation of Business between the Houses; but it is not just that—it is the sheer volume of legislation which we are foisting on to the public, Session by Session. In my view, we have reached saturation point. We have to get away from the idea that because a Party Committee puts a resolution through the Party Conference, it must be included in the Party Manifesto and automatically turned into legislation which has to be enacted in the first two or three years of a Parliament. This is absolute nonsense, and it is largely responsible for the weight and volume of legislation from which the public (and not just Parliament) is having to suffer. I do not know whether we could devise a Joint Committee system from both Houses for looking at the Queen's Speech early in each Session. It could cross-examine Ministers of Departments on the implication of the various measures, in terms of Parliamentary time, effort and draftsmanship, of impact on the public and overall cost. It may not be feasible, but I believe that some method must be found to reduce the volume of legislation, not just in the interests of Parliament but in the interests

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of the various bodies, including the outside professional bodies, who have to deal with changes in the law, quite often at very short notice.
If I may now, in conclusion, turn to the speech of the noble Lord the Leader of the House, I agree that if there is to be an examination of the procedure, it should not be over the composition or powers of this House or the relationship, in that sense, between the two Houses. I agree that it should not deal with electoral reform, but I would not accept that a Speaker's Conference is now the right vehicle for this; I believe it is too protracted a procedure. What is needed is agreement in principle by the parties concerned, followed by a Speaker's Conference to determine what is the most appropriate or most acceptable method of election to be adopted. I would endorse what the noble Lord said about the success of the European Communities Committee, and I certainly support the tribute which he paid to the noble Baroness, Lady Tweedsmuir, and I think we are learning very valuable lessons from this experience.
This brings me to the reference made to reconsidering the role of Parliament at Westminster, in the light of devolution for Scotland and Wales. I am just a little worried that in this matter we may be going—I know it sounds uncharacteristic—a little too fast. My feeling is that at the moment we ought to let the devolutionary arrangements run them selves in for a short period before embarking on radical changes at Westminster, just as we are learning how to deal with Westminster as part of the Community. I think we are learning those lessons, many of which can be applied to devolution, and I should not like us to take an attitude on what should be Westminster's relationship to the devolutionary arrangements until we have seen some working of it in practice. However, as I say, if there is a demand for the kind of inquiry proposed by the noble Lord the Leader of the House, then of course we shall give it our fullest support.
4.12 p.m.
The Earl of LISTOWEL: My Lords, perhaps I may be permitted to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, on his prospective nomination as my success-
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sor, and to say that I hope he will not be too depressed by what I have to say this afternoon. I can assure him that the two events are entirely coincidental.
In view of my responsibility for the passage of Private Bills through this House, I cannot let this opportunity pass —the opportunity provided so conveniently by the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd—without drawing to your Lordships' attention the difficulties likely to confront Parliament in the near future in dealing with Private Bills promoted for general powers. By this, I mean Bills whose purpose is to amend the law relating to such things as public health, highways and road traffic —not throughout the country like Public Bills, but in the area of the local authority promoting the Bill.
There are at present a very large number of local Acts in force. It would not be an overstatement to say that probably about 10,000 are still in force to some extent in different parts of the country. As I shall explain to your Lordships later in my speech, if I may, in rather more detail, in the field of public legislation there has been a continuing process of revision which has kept the public Statute Book in good order, but no parallel procedure has been carried out in respect of Private Acts. The result is that the general state of local legislation is chaotic. There is much that needs repeal because it has been overtaken by the general law, has become spent or is no longer applicable in modern conditions.
The passing of the Local Government Act 1972, however, provides Parliament with a unique opportunity to solve this problem. The complete reorganisation of local authorities, and the new boundaries that have been drawn of their areas, have meant that the territorial application of the old Acts is out of date. To rationalise this state of confusion, the 1972 Act provided that all legislation for general powers should cease to have effect after 1984 in non-metropolitan counties, and after 1979 in the six metropolitan counties. The upshot is that if none of the new local authorities asked Parliament to re-enact any of the existing local general powers for their areas, there would after 1984, broadly speaking, be no Private Acts for general powers in force. This would clearly be entirely unacceptable to the new authorities, who will thus be

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obliged to promote Private Bills to re-enact, and thus, in effect, to save from prospective repeal, and if desirable to extend to the whole of their new area, essential powers which would otherwise cease by virtue of the Act of 1972.
The first Bill promoted by a new authority as a result of the Local Government Act 1972 was the County of South Glamorgan Bill, and I will only remind the House very briefly of the procedure on that Bill. The Bill as originally deposited contained 287 clauses, and to enable the House to carry out a thorough scrutiny of these clauses I moved a Motion that the Bill should be referred to a small Select Committee, consisting of myself and two other noble Lords. The Special Report from this Select Committee was debated on 9th December last year. The House agreed to an Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Champion, the effect of which was that the Bill was recommitted to another Select Committee. This Select Committee consisted of the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, and myself. It is just about to complete its consideration of the Bill, and I have every hope that this will be done next week. As a result of the decisions reached by these two Select Committees, about 110 clauses will have been allowed out of the original 287 in the Bill. The first Select Committee sat for 26 mornings, and the second Select Committee sat for 14 full days. This constitutes the longest running Committee stage on any private Bill in living memory.
This Bill, which was originally deposited as long ago as November 1974 —not last year, but the year before—has yet to be read a third time in your Lordships' House and will then have to be considered in another place. During the consideration of the Bill on Recommitment, a Government Bill, the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, was introduced in another place. This Bill, which contained only some 37 clauses, goes some way to provide an alternative to the promotion by local authorities of general powers Bills. But it will be apparent from the number of clauses that there are a very large number of general powers which local authorities may consider they require, but which are not provided by the Government Bill.
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It is still open to all the other new authorities to promote Bills similar in scope to the Glamorgan Bill before, at the latest, 1984, and the number and length of such Bills is likely to be very great.
I must ask the indulgence of the House in raising this matter—no one is more conscious of the need for the indulgence of the House than I am—because I am fully aware that the topic of local legislation is one of minimal political interest. Yet, my Lords, we are, after all, legislators and therefore we have as much responsibility for private as for public legislation. Local Acts are Acts of Parliament no less than Public Acts, and they affect the lives of millions of people. If, as seems probable, each of the six metropolitan county councils, each of the 40 non-metropolitan county councils and each of the eight Welsh county councils promotes a Bill to re-enact a substantial amount of what will be repealed by the Local Government Act, the whole of England and Wales will, by the end of 1984, be subject not only to the general Statute Law but to the new local Statute Law.
Without taking into account district county councils—though one of these has, in fact, promoted a Bill in this Session—it can be seen that the House will be required to pass 54 local Bills for general powers between now and 1985; that is to say, at an average rate— though, of course, the figure will vary from year to year—of nearly eight Bills a year, assuming that no local authority will promote a Bill for this purpose in the Session 1983/84. As I have said, the only Bill of this kind that has so far come before the House is the County of South Glamorgan Bill. If 53 other county council Bills are of an average length corresponding to that of the South Glamorgan Bill, which, as I mentioned to your Lordships, had 287 clauses and 8 Schedules, which I did not mention, we may expect a total of 11,500clauses and 432 Schedules. Of course, I would expect that total to be substantially reduced—I may comfort the House by what I am about to add—or perhaps even halved by the Committees to which those Bills will be referred, as has been done by the Committees which sat on the South Glamorgan Bill. But, even so, there will emerge new Statute Law comprising some 5,000 or 6,000 Sections and 200 Schedules.

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I cannot believe that such an accretion to the Statute Book, or anything like it, is desirable.
In previous debates on local legislation I have tried to describe the inefficiency of the present system by which local authorities ask Parliament to alter the law county by county (or district by district) and so create a multiplicity of statutory provisions dealing with needs, real or not, common to them all, but with different effect and in different words in each area. A great deal of time is spent in Committees on these Bills in attempts, with varying success, to cure imperfections and mistakes in them, a process which, in general legislation, is performed at the drafting stage before the Bill is introduced.
Lord OGMORE: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees whether it is not a fact that in regard to the South Glamorgan Bill those concerned were advised by the Department of the Environment to take this action here? In fairness to them, I think it should he made clear that they did not do this off their own bat.
The Earl of LISTOWEL: No, my Lords, I have absolutely no complaint about the Promoters of the South Glamorgan Bill. In my view they have behaved in an entirely fair and reasonable way throughout.
I need not repeat the reasons for which I believe that local Act clauses are often defective, but it is important that the House should consider very carefully one other matter; namely, the effect of these local Acts on the Statute Book. Many of your Lordships will be aware that the public general statute law (I am speaking of the statute law of England and Wales, though what I am about to say applies equally to Scotland) is subject to constant revision. Two bodies are primarily responsible for this, the Statute Law Committee presided over by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, and the Law Commission which was appointed by the noble and learned Lord.
The process is carried out in two ways. In the first place, each new Act is drafted so that it fits into the Statute Book and for this purpose care is taken, where necessary, to repeal or amend previous
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Acts. In the second place, there are frequent Consolidation Acts, and also statute law revision Acts whose purpose is to clear away what has been repealed by implication or is spent. The result of this process is that the whole series of general Acts from the Statute of Merton in 1235 to the National Coal Board (Finance) Act of 1976, which received the Royal Assent on 4th March, is a consistent body of law. I need hardly say that this could not have been achieved without the great skill and industry of the Parliamentary Counsel who draft Bills. But this process of revision and repeal has been applied only to the public general Statute Book, which has thus been reduced to order. The enormously greater local and private Statute Book has been subjected to virtually no revision at all. So it is no exaggeration to say that, taking private and public Acts together, the bulk of the statute law is unrevised, unindexed, and I suspect unascertainable. Most of this unrevised mass will be repealed by the Local Government Act 1972 and most of what is left is probably spent.
It is of the utmost importance that what I may—I hope not impolitely—refer to as the "rubbish "swept away by the Local Government Act be not replaced by a similar accretion of new local Acts. To this end it is now pro posed that private Acts shall be subjected to the same process of revision as is applied to the public general Act. But here we encounter a technical difficulty, which, if your Lordships will be extremely patient with me, I will do my best to explain.
If I may confine myself for a moment to public general Acts, a major cause of their obscurity derives from the amendment of one Act of Parliament by later ones. If I wish to find out the law about road traffic I shall waste my time by reading a copy of the Road Traffic Act 1960 because that Act has been amended again and again. The reader will get nowhere until he finds an edited text comprising the amendments. Until very recently such up-to-date publications have, with rare exceptions, paid no attention to amendment by private Act. But now they have begun to refer to amendment of general Acts by private Acts. The amendment, however, of public general Acts by local Acts creates prob-

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lems of substance and not merely of indexing. I think your Lordships will agree that the law throughout England and Wales should be uniform. There may be local circumstances that justify a departure from this principle but uniformity is generally desirable.
The technical difficulty that I have referred to is this. If a local Act amends a general Act it means as a rule that the general Act has a different effect in the area to which that local Act applies from its effects elsewhere. It does not stop there, because there will be other local Acts making amendments of the general Act often in a different sense and in different words. The result is that when, in the course of time, the general Act comes to be amended the Amendment has to fit the general Act not only in its original form but in the form that it has acquired in each local Act area. It requires no great stretch of imagination to observe that consolidation of Acts that have been subjected to this double process will either be impossible or will result in a consolidating Act of formidable complexity. What I am trying to say, I am afraid very inadequately, is that the process of revising and consolidating the general law, which makes it possible for lawyers at any rate to find their way about the Statute Book and to advise us laymen what are our legal rights and obligations—this process will become impossibly complicated unless we stop the drift to another paper mountain of local Acts.
I must also warn the House that the volume of local legislation is likely to be such as to choke the existing machinery by which the House passes private Bills. There will therefore be long delays in the passage of such Bills which may take two or even three Sessions before they pass into law. Even if it were possible in this House to deal with two major Bills simultaneously—something we have never tried to do before—there is likely to be a queue of private Bills waiting for consideration in Committee.
It is therefore vitally important, if we are to avoid ill-considered legislation and inordinate delay, that means other than the promotion of Private Bills be found to alter the general law where it is shown to be defective in meeting the legitimate needs of local authorities. This alternative is the regular passing of public general
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Bills, each such Bill averting a multiplicity of local Bills. I am painfully aware that neither this nor any other Government can commit themselves to find the time and resources to do this. But I ask the House to consider the implications for Parliament of this attitude of the Executive. It means that the House will not have the opportunity to pass a good general Act but is quite prepared to pass any number of bad local Acts for the same purpose. Your Lordships may think that that reflects little credit on Parliament as a legislative body. What I am suggesting is that both Houses of Parliament and the Government should now be seeking ways of reducing the bulk of private legislation and of devising more appropriate procedures to satisfy the legitimate needs of local authorities.
I do not of course know what will be the outcome of the debate this afternoon, but if it is that a Select Committee is set up to carry out the major review proposed, it will be for consideration whether or not the problems I have indicated should be referred to it. For my part, I see any attempt to solve this problem of private Bill procedure as an exercise in reviewing the legislative process of Parliament in a limited and technical field, and it may therefore not be appropriate to include it in a more general review. It is also a problem that concerns both Houses equally and not, of course, this House alone, whereas the proposed Select Committee, as I understood it, would be mainly concerned, although not exclusively, with the affairs of this House. Therefore, it might be preferable for me at this stage to approach the Chairman of Ways and Means in another place to discuss with him the best method for both Houses of dealing with this problem.
4.29 p.m.
Lord PANNELL: My Lords, when the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, said this afternoon that there was more than enough to consider, I doubted that statement at the time, but having just listened to the last speech I have no doubt at all that really the whole of that speech will have to be considered, whatever Committee is set up. I have been a Member of this House since July 1974 and I have no doubt that people like the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, think that because

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of my juvenility and service here I must bring a fresh mind to bear upon the subject; but not entirely. Colleagues of mine in the House of Commons knew that I was an assiduous speaker on this subject for 25 years. I am glad to know that the noble Lord, Lord Tranmire, will be called later, because he knows more about it than anyone else. There is now an ex-Speaker sitting on the Woolsack, and the ex-Deputy Speaker is sitting opposite me, so there will be no shortage of invigilators so far as I am concerned!
I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, fell into the error into which all the old hands always fall, that is, the belief that after the Lord made him, he busted the mould and there were no other people like him. When I speak to people about Parliament, they always say that Parliament is not what it used to be. All masters of the English tongue since the time of Pepys have been saying the same thing; it does not matter who they are—Pepys or Dickens, who spent a long time in the Press Gallery and who called it the great dustheap of Westminster. "Ah ", the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, would say, "but that is the other place ". I am sure he is wrong there.
When I was doing research for this speech, I found out what the Earl of Oxford and Asquith thought when he first came to this place. It may have been in the aftermath of his defeat at Paisley, but he said:
" I was occupied yesterday with my Budget speech in the House of Lords, with which I was fairly well satisfied. But it is an impossible audience. It is like speaking by torchlight to corpses in a charnel house ".
That was 50 years ago. I understand the orderliness and the silence of the grave, but it was not only the disappointment at his Budget speech that made the noble Earl say that. He also said:
" I finished up with a free trade speech in the House of Lords, the worst audience in the world, with great politeness except when "Chuck it "Smith takes the floor, with no resilience or even response either from friends or foes. There is no debating, and I shall only go there when there is something I want reported."
This speech of mine will hardly be reported, so that is not the reason for my speaking today.
My Lords, since I have been in this House, I have seen no enthusiasm for
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change at all; rather the reverse. There has been only one proposal for change since I have been here; that is, that of the noble Lord, Lord Raglan, to alter the initiation ceremony from what I consider to be a rather medieval pantomime. It was hopelessly defeated. I looked around the Division Lobby, and saw all the Left-Wingers from the other place who voted here for no change. This bears out another consideration. I hope I will not be accused of giving away any State secrets, but I have been an advocate for many years that Parliament should be taken away from the Palace, and transferred on its own authority. I have done considerable research on this. When the Prime Minister gave me my folio he said, "You can nationalise the old place now, Charlie ", and I set about it straight away. Within six weeks, I had developed a whole scheme for the unified control of the Palace of Westminster. There was no difficulty at all then, but when I came to this House, it was another thing. I found out that they were not Socialists in this House, not Conservatives or Liberals, but another incarnation. Dick Crossman found that to his cost later on, when he tried to reform the House of Lords. What he did not realise was that although it was a first-class matter of interest to this House—I heard the noble Lord. Lord Carrington, on television at the time—it was fifth-rate stuff down that end, and it was talked out.
I came here and found out that whatever they call themselves before they come to this House, people would have died in the last ditch for the rights of the Lord Great Chamberlain. So my efforts largely failed. I can remember the Stokes Committee in 1964—Stokes of glorious memory on a great Select Committee—when we tried to make an arrangement by which the Peers' guest room should be shared with Members of the House of Commons' wives when they came here. It was defeated by the Labour Peers at the time, and I think the father of my noble friend Lord Shepherd was among them. This is the sort of thing that happened.
I hear complaints that when your Lordships have a late sitting at night, noble Lords are not served a meal in the Members' diningroom in the House of Commons. In view of all that has gone before, I say to your Lordships that you reap what you sow. The Left Wing of the

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Peers came down very heavily against altering the initiation ceremony. Of course, I understand this. People revere what they know and love. The behaviour of your Lordships here is the rationale of much experience over the years. Your Lordships have gradually settled in to a way of life that is agreeable to you. The difference between this House and the other place is really the cares of the constituency. I never knew the burden of 60,000 people 200 miles away until that burden was lifted from my shoulders; that makes all the difference. I do not know whether that is the reason for the latent hostility I often find between the two Chambers, but that is a fact.
Generally speaking, when I consider what happened last night in the other place, and other things like that, it is a fact that new Members of the House of Commons always believe that the world of thought started when they arrived here. They believe that they are the people on their way up, and that we are the people on our way out. I find that Members of the House of Lords, when I talk to them, think that this has all been done before and justice has no more mocking questions to ask mankind.
I come now to the nub of all the trouble; that is, time. The noble Lords, Lord Carrington and Lord Shepherd, were right about this; but what are we to do about it? Everybody blethers about it. One can see the same complaints going on year after year. The other place used to rise at a sensible time in July and never came back until February. I do not think that has been done since 1923. But if you take any other modern State, it has its three-year plan, its five-year plan and even a 10-year plan; we have an annual Budget. We carry on our affairs in a way suitable to a pastoral society: springtime and harvest, the rotation of crops; get the boys away to gather in the harvest; that is the idea. A great industrial nation is circumstanced entirely by that consideration.
I know why they want to get away in July; I am not a friend of Bob Mellish for nothing. He wants to give them a deadline—you work them to death on the promise that, "You will not get away by the second week in August unless you do it this way ", and that is how he keeps on. What this House does is what the
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other place largely dictates. Although the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, likes to think he has done the Government a good turn, he has made a virtue of necessity. He can do nothing else, because he is the Leader of an Opposition; and the Opposition cannot let Government legislation go by default. Consequently, the noble Lord has to come back anyway.
My Lords, what shall we do to break the bottleneck? I will tell you the Pannell solution. Broadly speaking, it is that all legislation should not be required to be finished by the end of the Session; if we got to a position with a Second Reading or Third Reading by the end of July it could be taken up in the new Session. I think the condition of it being taken up in the new Session is that it would face another Second Reading in the Commons. This gives the Government a wonderful opportunity to drop legislation which they have found to be an albatross round their neck. All sorts of things are started, with too much legislation which can be conveniently forgotten. In 1970, I think the Labour Government had to drop 22 Bills, most important Bills, including the nationalisation of ports, because of a snap Election. I do not think that is a good thing either. I think there is too much legislation. I think the Government ought to be given second thoughts. It is all very well jibbing at the idea that something was in the Manifesto. Winston Churchill had something to say about that. He once said: "I do not believe that simply because you stick something in an Election document you should be bound to it for all time ". We consider this is a tryst with the people. We put something in the Manifesto as a witness, as the reason why something should be brought in.
I know it will be said about my solution that you will not get the people in the Lobbies. You will. We need longer to think about the things we do. I remember that as a Minister I read the equivalent of a paper-back a day in order to keep abreast of what was going on, unless I was going to be at the mercy of my civil servants, which far too many Ministers are. It is true that the Whips could not use the lash quite as much, but at any rate it would be a good idea to try that. I do not think your Lord ships ought to be bullied about this. I have heard the pledge given that nothing

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will be brought in after Easter. I heard the Prime Minister say it a few nights ago, and I hope that will be honoured.
No planning is possible on the basis of the yearly budget. We speak about rolling programmes, but to be successful they must be hauled up and examined by expenditure committees and subject to that sort of scrutiny, without believing that time is running out all the time. What happened to the Community Land Bill? When all is said and done—this is not a charge against the Opposition; it is a fact—how many Amendments were left? Hundreds of them, all just shot through on the last day or two. With the best will in the world they could not be understood. Members of Parliament can get down to a certain amount of reading but it has to be specialised reading. If you are to be well-read and have enough knowledge to make the Minister take notice or, more important, the people in the Civil Service box take notice, you have to have some specialisation.
I think the proposal that I have put up is worth examination. I can only say that after 25 years hard thinking I can think of no other. It still seems to me that—though this is outside the terms of reference of the Committee—after my experience on the Trade Union Bill, which almost invoked the Parliament Act, the delay is still too long. The fact that that has been voted on eight times in the Commons must lead to a great deal of frustration. We heard the repetitive speeches of Lord Goodman time and time again, and they did not add to the first occasion we heard him. I think that after the Commons have rejected Amendments for the second time it would be far better if we got on with other business.
Another association that I have had with this place is that I was a member of the Joint Select Committee, I think about 1962, which tried the Wedgwood Benn case. That let in the Life Peers, and I thought that was, generally speaking, in spite of what the noble Lord said, to the health of this place.
Lord CARRINGTON: My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord will forgive my intervening. I hope he did not misunderstand me. I was not-criticising the creation
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of Life Peers; I was only criticising the quantity over the last 15 years.
Lord PANNELL: My Lords, I hope there is no reflection on the quality. Quite frankly, when the noble Lord was speaking, I thought that he thought we were somehow lesser breeds without the law.
Lord CARRINGTON: My Lords, I hope the noble Lord is being his usual funny self and is not being serious when he says he thought I said that, because he has no reason to believe either that I said it or thought it.
Lord PANNELL: My Lords, of course, I accept the noble Lord's withdrawal. If I am facetious, so is he on occasions. I can never take him entirely seriously. Of course, there is the burden of over-elaborate legislation, but let your Lordships take heart. I read the debate in the other place when the Lord President of the Council introduced this subject Every innovation that he brought up was greeted with cries of dissent from all over the House; they are determined against change, exactly as are your Lordships. There is one thing which we could do. I think we ought to have a common research service between the two Houses. I took a considerable part in setting up the Research Department in the other place, and it is a very good research department indeed. We are well serviced, I do not know by how many assistants, but it is not comparable to the service down there. I think we could easily have a common library service. Why should it be considered almost an impingement on the Royal Prerogative if we have any service shared with that common place? I think we could have common research services.
I do not think the Party which preached, if I may say so again to the noble Lord, that there would be no legislation would sweep the country. I can only tell him of my experience of eight General Elections; that is, that they always wanted more legislation. Sam Gompers, the famous American trade union leader, was asked, "What do trade unions want?". He said, "More and more and more". So do the electorate. It seems that they have an appetite for everything. Another thing I know from long association with the electorate, which is denied to your Lordships' House,

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is that there is no gratitude in public life except for favours to come. There is no question at all about that.
So I wish your Lordships' Committee well when they come to consider these matters. There are only a certain number of days in the week; there is only a certain amount of time to study. When all is said and done, your Lordships are not as young as you used to be. I find now, at my time of life, having outlived the allotted span of three score years and ten, and a few over, that any good work I have to do has to be done in the morning when I am fresh; I am not suitable enough for it in the evening. This is not a request that the Committee should necessarily meet in the morning, only that other hours should not be added. If I have appeared facetious, I must say that I have always recognised, as my colleagues would agree, and have said in the other place, that this place has a great capacity for public service; it is the greatest reservoir of past public service that we have in the country. I can honestly say that although I differ from people from time to time I find this place congenial and everyone most kind.
4.49 p.m.
Earl CATHCART: My Lords, I should like to speak briefly on one particular aspect of our practices and procedures as they relate to local legislation. In doing so, I should also like to give my strong support to what the Lord Chairman of Committees, Lord Listowel, said in his speech, which was full of most important facts and details which are of great importance to us in our work here, and to which we must pay great attention. As the noble Earl said, Section 262 of the Local Government Act 1972 imposed on all local authorities the requirement to review their existing local and private legislation and promote new Private Bills by 1984 or, in the case of the six metropolitan counties, by 1979, by which dates all their existing legislation would be repealed. One must be anxious that this timetable will fail, not because of any failure on the part of the local authorities but because our existing practices and procedures in Parliament will prove inadequate to cope with the timetable.
The first of these local Private Bills, the County of South Glamorgan Bill, has
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been subjected to three Select Committees, of which I have had the privilege to be a member of two. I have never been to South Glamorgan but, as a Scot, I am growing quite fond of that part of Wales and feel that I know it quite well. Much valuable spadework for this Bill has been done in the Select Committees, and this will, no doubt, be of great value to the remaining 53 local authorities when they promote their Private Bills. We cannot assume that the experience of South Glamorgan will necessarily cause these other 53 Bills to be produced in a very much shorter form. The 1972 Act encouraged new local authorities to review and prune their existing legislation before promoting their Bills, and the County of South Glamorgan have told us that the 287 clauses and 8 Schedules which are in their Bill represent only 3 per cent. of their existing legislation. Can we be sure that, when their turn comes to promote their Bills, the other authorities will be as prompt and keen to prune their legislation as drastically as that?
It is true that the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill will coincide with 25 clauses and 4 Schedules of the existing County of South Glamorgan Bill. This new Government Bill was produced during the sittings of the Second Select Committee and had a great effect on our deliberations. It is now having its Second Reading in another place. Assuming that this Bill becomes law in more or less the form in which it has been published, it will make these 25 clauses strong candidates for repeal, and presumably, this will also reduce the number of clauses in the other local authority Bills. But that is not a very large reduction.
Another matter is that those clauses in the County of South Glamorgan Bill which have been disallowed may well be promoted in the same, or similar, form by the other authorities, either because they think they have a better case or because they can make a stronger case, based on their own local needs. In any event, I think that the volume of work which these Private Bills will give during the next eight years—that is, by 1984—will be very great indeed.
Apart from the time spent on the County of South Glamorgan Bill on the

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Floor of your Lordships' House, I calculate that in formal sessions of Select Committees of this House the Bill has occupied so far 492 Peer hours, if I might coin a collective phrase; and this does not include informal meetings and homework. If the situation arises during the next eight years—and with our present procedure I am bound to say that I think it will—that your Lordships' House has to deal with two or even three of these Bills, I do not think the Chairman of Committees will have any difficulty in getting sufficient Peers to form two or three Select Committees sitting on separate local authority Bills at the same time. The shortcoming would be in the size of the Private Bill Office staff who support these Committees, both from the administrative point of view and also from the secretarial point of view. This support is absolutely essential to the work of these Select Committees, and I personally have been impressed by the great support that this small staff provides to ensure the smooth working of the Committee.
It is not only this small staff which would be overwhelmed if two or three local authority Bills were dealt with simultaneously, but also of course the shorthand writers and typing facilities would be hopelessly stretched. One wonders also whether the Departments would be able to provide sufficient representatives of the right calibre to attend the discussion in Select Committee of those clauses which were relevant to them if more than one Select Committee sat at any one time to consider local Private Bills for general powers. Presumably these Departments would prefer similar clauses from all local authorities to be dealt with by one Select Committee at the same time rather than taking a whole Bill from each local authority in turn. I think there is in fact considerable merit in this idea if only because it would provide a better opportunity to achieve uniformity of the various local Acts dealing with similar subjects.
I do not want to waste your Lordships' time describing this procedure in detail, but as I see it between now and 1984 we would require, at a fairly early and reasonable date, all local authorities to deposit their new local Bills by that date. If they were able to achieve a degree of
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uniformity in the drafting of their clauses which dealt with parallel subjects, it would undoubtedly help the work of Parliament. Then, on an arranged programme spread over, say, the next five years, your Lordships could appoint Select Committees to deal with the clauses by subject matter across the board and not with each Bill in turn. If any local authority had a requirement which did not coincide with the majority, then there would be nothing under this procedure to stop that individual local authority from having either a separate subparagraph or whatever it required. That would be a matter for the Select Committee. I am not making my proposal in an inflexible manner.
Time would be allowed before the 1984 date was reached for the remaining clauses in each Bill which had not been touched by these Select Committees to be dealt with Bill by Bill, which would not take very long, so that the Bills would then all go through Parliament fairly quickly in the last year or two before 1984. If this procedure is going to work, I realise that both Houses will need to adopt it. I also realise that the work of the Select Committees would have to be allowed to carry on over each Session, and even over each Parliament. But since, on the whole, these local Private Bills are of a non-political nature, I am sure that this problem could be overcome.
Finally, there is one other factor which I should like to mention which makes it essential for us to try and devise some better procedures for establishing this new range of local Acts of Parliament. The cost of promoting these local Bills is very heavy indeed on each of the local authorities. I have no way of accurately estimating what the cost has been to the County of South Glamorgan, but I should be surprised if they see much change from £200,000,and this, when one multiplies by 54 local authorities, or whatever becomes quite a sizeable total of public money. One must agree that one hopes that each of the future Private Bills will not have to be recommitted to a second Select Committee, which must have added to the cost. But, nevertheless, the cost for each local authority will be quite considerable. Therefore, I strongly urge that the Lord Chairman's proposals receive the most careful and immediate consideration, so that better procedures can be adopted to enable local authorities

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to carry out what Parliament has required them to do under the 1972 Act. We should do this not only to grasp this unique opportunity of tidying up local Statute Law but to make certain that it is not because of Parliamentary procedures that local authorities fail to achieve their legitimate needs within the timetable.
5.0 p.m.
Lord TRANMIRE: My Lords, it would be an impertinence for me, after less than two years' membership of this House, to comment on the procedure of the House. There are, however, a few points that are similar at both ends of the Parliamentary corridor and I will speak about those. The first is the Parliamentary timetable which the noble Lord the Leader of the House and the noble Lord, Lord Pannell, mentioned. As Lord Pannell said, it originated from the habit which the House had of starting its Session when the pheasant shooting had ended, and it took good care to see that the House had prorogued before the grouse shooting season had started. Later there was a concession and, as Parliamentary business got rather heavier, the Session was begun when the pheasant shooting began and it was arranged that the financial year should end exactly half way through.
This is a rather antiquated and out of date approach. It is also highly inconvenient. I suggest, therefore, that the time has come for a committee to look at the Parliamentary timetable. With our membership of the European Community, we will have the position where in the Community the financial year ends with the calendar year while our financial year ends on 31st March. I do not necessarily want to know which way it would go because I gather that the Community is finding certain difficulties over its budget and financial procedures and it may be found inconvenient to keep to the end of the calendar year. In my view, the great weakness of the Parliamentary timetable is that the peak of Parliamentary activity comes at a time when the weather is sultry, with thunderstorms, and is highly unsuitable for acrimonious debate.
As the Leader of the House said, the Select Committee on Procedure which was presided over by the noble Lord,
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Lord Northfield, and of which I was a member, recommended that both Houses should adjourn or prorogue early in July. The only effect of that recommendation has been that the House has sat well into August, and thus I say that the time has come for a review of the procedure. Another factor of importance is that the school holidays are now coming earlier than they used to and this means, as the Leader of the House said, that Parliamentarians are deprived to a great extent of the opportunity of spending their holidays with their children. We must see whether this old system, which suited those who were thinking merely of the pheasant and grouse shooting, cannot be brought more up to date and in line with Parliamentary activity.
The second point, which arises from the first, is one which has worried me considerably; it is the distribution of Bills between the two Houses. Two Select Committees on Procedure in the other place, of which I was a member or chairman, advocated that there should be a better distribution of Bills between the two Houses. There are difficulties over this and there are certain constitutional shibboleths that prevent it. There is also, I am afraid, the innate vanity of Ministers who like to deliver their own legislative concepts in the full glare of publicity on the Government Front Bench in the House of Commons. These difficulties have to be overcome because the mal distribution of Bills between the two Houses brings the overload of work in this place in the month of July, and it means that in the early part of the Session this House is working at a much lower degree of intensity than later on.
What the solutionis I am not quite certain. Undoubtedly, the pre-legislative procedures of Green Papers and debates on White Papers give Ministers the opportunity to have their publicity early on, and after that, if there has been a debate on a Green Paper or White Paper, it is easier, I should have thought, for the Bill to originate in this House rather than in the Commons, and to divide up the consideration of it. But where one does not have any pre-legislative Paper or debate, one must find some procedural device to enable Ministers to have the publicity and, at the same time, to get the two Houses working on the legislation

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evenly throughout the year and at the same level of pressure.
I am not wedded to the solution put forward by Lord Pannell, of having "no slaughter of the innocents "because that would be highly inconvenient for Governments who, if they find certain of their Bills unpopular, can manage to cut their throats quietly at the end of October and nothing more is heard of them. With the Pannell solution we should find even more legislation; we should find a certain encouragement for Governments to introduce their measures in July on the excuse that, after all, they need not necessarily finish at the end of the Session. Clearly these matters require urgent consideration. In my view, most of the important ones require examination by a joint Select Committee rather than by two separate committees of the two Houses, because we now want a radical overhaul of the practice and procedure of Parliament, and that can really be done only by a Joint Select Committee.
It is a sobering thought that every measure that is passed goes through eight different stages, in five of which Amendments can be made, yet at the end the legislation is unintelligible to the average citizen and even to the courts. This means that something is wrong with the legislative process. I hope that whatever committees look at this matter they will look at a solution that has been advocated and has been called the "turn back stage "; at the end of the proceedings either House would look at the Bill, as amended, for its drafting and the arrangement of its clauses, and would try to make something better out of the mess left by the legislative process. There is a lot to be said for that, if it would not add unduly to the time taken by Parliament on legislation. We have a responsibility to see that the legislation we pass is intelligible, right and clear to the subject. I feel that here I am getting to the limit of my impertinence and therefore I will merely wish the committee good success and hope that there will be radical changes in Parliamentary procedure as a result of its recommendations.
5.10 p.m.
The Earl of ONSLOW: My Lords, I did not want to speak, and I only do so—and I pray your Lordships' indulgence for it—because nobody else has said for me
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what I thought and hoped they would say. There seems to me to be one over-riding fault in your Lordships' House. It is not the fault of any Member or Members. It suits a Conservative Government to have a Conservative majority because they can get their legislation straight through. It suits a Labour Government to have a Conservative majority because if ever its legislation is amended they can go back to the other place and say, "Yah boo! It is a Peers v. People issue! '
A recent development has been the incredible complication of legislation. I should like to suggest to your Lordships that there are four Acts which could have done with amendment which would have been acceptable to another place on a non-partisan basis. In other words, if the Conservatives could have been persuaded in the case of the Industrial Relations Act or the National Health Service Re-organisation Act that some of the Labour Amendments were right, both those Acts would have been much better. That may possibly apply also to the Act reorganising local government. If that could have been done, it would have made it much easier for a Labour Government in the case of the Goodman Amendment and of some Amendments to the Community Land Act to have said that it was not simply a case of the Conservative Whip being applied or of the Conservative majority.
In what I am saying, I am not in any way trying to criticise my noble friend Lord Carrington for applying the power which he has. Of course not. This is just the result of a fault in the composition of your Lordships' House. It seems to me dotty—and your Lordships will forgive me for following the noble Lord. Lord Pannell, in being facetious—that a person should find himself in your Lord ships' House as a result of the fact that his forebear was Chancellor of the Exchequer around 1819, was Speaker of the House of Commons and was given promotion because he became drunk with George III and the Prince of Wales. It seems very odd that somebody like myself should have any influence, in however minor a way, over the affairs of this country.
My Lords, what I am trying to say is that if we get the composition of this House right, the powers and influence which it will have will be mach greater.

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Surely that is what we need now, because Government legislation from both sides is so complicated and the power of the Executive is—and I speak as a Whig—too great and must be checked. A back-up check could be provided by a balanced composition in your Lordships' House as a result of which neither side could shout "Foul! "or, alternatively, "We have the heavy battalions! ".
5.15 p.m.
Lord WIGG: My Lords, I count it among the privileges which I have derived from being a Member of your Lordships' House that I have come to know the noble Earl, Lord Onslow. It seems that the many conversations which we have had in private have borne some fruit because he is the only speaker so far to have put his finger on what matters. What politics are about is not nice debating arrangements or getting a meal after time or whether one can use the Library facilities, important as those things are. Politics are about power. However, I disagree with the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, that if we get the composition right the power will follow. Of course it will not.
This House has existed from time immemorial to protect the rights and privileges of those who happen to drink with the Monarch or whose female forebears have slept with him. That is what it is about and they have hung on to it successfully for a very long time. They have done so because, in moments of crisis, they have had the wisdom to see that the game was up and they have made adjustments accordingly. Then one gets an arriviste like Lord Carrington speaking into the ear of Mr. Heath in 1974, as a result of which the Tories fought an Election which they should never have fought because they did so under conditions which made it impossible for them to win. That showed beyond measure that, so far as the Tory Party in its present form is concerned, the game is permanently up. However, I believe that the game is also permanently up for the Labour and Liberal Parties as well.
When I look at the future of politics in this country I recognise one simple fact: if politicians are to succeed they must—like those who back horses—choose the winner before it has won,
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because the bookmakers will not pay out after it has won. The future of politics in this country during the life, I believe, of anyone now living, and certainly of anyone in this House, is that never again will there be a majority for one single Party. We have moved into an area of political adjustment. That may be an unfortunate fact. We may come to long for the days when, after an Election, there would be a Prime Minister and an Administration in 10, Downing Street, whatever their political colour, who could carry on the function of Government, which is to govern. There will have to be a period of adjustment.
Whether or not I am right it is perfectly clear that the political Parties in their modern form have abdicated one of the vital functions of political Parties in a democracy—namely, their educative role. I well remember going to Mr. Morgan Phillips in 1945 with a number of Members of the House of Commons who had been associated with me before in the war in the organisation of adult education. I spoke to him about the necessity of carrying on the work which had been done during the war by ABCA and in the munition hostels and the like. He was quite blunt about it. He said, "There is no money, but if I had any money and I had to choose between spending it on political education or on organisers I should choose the organisers. "He chose the organisers and the Labour Party is in the state in which it now finds itself. It has eaten all the political seed corn.
So far as the Tories are concerned, the noble Lord, Lord Butler, had the wisdom to see the need for political education in 1945. He set about the task and he learned the simple lesson that one cannot educate others until one educates oneself. He took the new generation which came into the House of Commons in 1945 and which sat on these Benches in this Chamber, and produced a degree of political competence which I envied although I thought their principles misguided.
That is what must happen. If not, it may well be that there will be no future for democratic Party politics as we know them in this country. It may be—and I, for one, dread it—that, as a result of the decision which a majority of your Lord ships endorsed to go into the Common

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Market, we shall be ruled by Directives from Brussels. Those are Directives which nobody, least of all Ministers, understand. We simply have to do what we are told in accordance with the line taken in Brussels. In that case, the House should organise itself into a series of committees, each considering the Directives coming from Brussels and at least to make sure that the papers are delivered on time and that the translations are correct.
If there is to be a virile democracy that really understands what things arc about, of course there must be a manifesto, of course there must be a programme, because one of the requirements fulfilled during a General Election, certainly so far as the Labour Party is concerned, is that one enters into an intensive period in which politics assume a priority. Peoples minds are open. They are willing to discuss matters, and to attend meetings. Perhaps they even read the newspapers, although they will not get much education of any kind from them, and, least of all from the broadcasting media, by which I mean television. This point highlights one of the great defects in our society at present. We live in a time of great change. The noble Lord, Lord Pannell, discussed the difficulties of introducing change into the thinking of Members of this House. There may be something in that. But there cannot be worthwhile change in a democratic society unless there is discussion. There must be discussion at all levels, if the will, the purpose, of the Government is to make itself felt.
If one was to say a word about the difficulties inside the trade union movement it would be that decisions, very often right and wise decisions, are taken aloft, yet penetrate only slowly. There is imperfect communication between the decisions taken aloft and the implementation and understanding of them on the factory floor. This, again, is a matter which is of vital concern to all of us who believe in a democratic society.
The noble Lord, Lord Tranmire, is absolutely right when he talks about the programme that we have inherited from our forbears. But if that is to be put right we must deal with the problem fundamentally. For example, in a modern
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society what case is there for the anachronistic nonsense of the Chancellor emerging from No. 11 holding his dispatch box, then going down to the House of Commons and talking for three hours, delivering obiter dicta, in which the majority of the points should be dealt with Departmentally, or published in a White Paper? The whole nation is keyed up listening. They are wondering if there will be a ha'penny on tobacco or, perhaps, a penny off beer. How is it possible to run the affairs of a great nation, with its complicated industrial system, on the basis of squeaks from the nursery? All that belongs to the days of Gladstone, or, perhaps—to please the noble Lord, Lord Pannell—it is associated with what Asquith said in the earlier part of this century. But it has nothing whatever to do with the political and economic affairs of this country, which are intertwined.
My complaint against this place is very simple. First, I believe in the necessity of a second Chamber, in its revising role. Secondly, I believe also in its delaying role. But all my life I have fought against "Toryism ". I once said in another place about "Toryism "that I hated its guts. That is true. I always have and, I believe, always shall. I feel this way now. I hate everything that "Toryism "stands for, including its lack of courage. That is my complaint. It has given away an Empire and got nothing in return. There fore, I fight "Toryism ". When this House acts in such a way as it acted over the Common Market, not in the discharge of the traditions it has claimed for itself, but in putting a seal on what was convenient for a Tory Government, I am "agin "it.
In its present form we should slit its throat. I am here for one purpose only, to assist in the slitting of its throat; hygienically if possible, but in another way if it is not. I advocate—after all, it is in the natural tradition—that it is much better to commit suicide than to be murdered. Therefore, if this House gets rid of itself in its present form, that is to say, it gets rid of its permanent Tory majority, which exists only to protect its own interest, then my views on the subject will change. It requires courage to commit suicide, and I believe that the Tory Party is not famed for political courage. So I do not think there is much hope in that direction.

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There are a number of things which this House could do. It could, for example, institute an efficient library service, which was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Pannell. I say at once that I am not critical of the resources avail able. I pay tribute and acknowledge the debt which I owe personally to Mr. Dobson, Mr. Morgan and their colleagues. I also have the advantage of being an ex-Member of the House of Commons and so have the privilege of using the House of Commons facilities when they are available. I am very grateful for that. But I believe that in these days there should be an efficient library service. It need not be preferential, nor more than adequate, but rather the type of service which one could get by using the City of Westminster Library, for example. That type of service would not cost all that much. I once, perhaps foolishly, spent some time producing a paper which I then gave to the Chairman of the Library Committee, and, in accordance with the best Parliamentary tradition, nothing happened. But it is perfectly obvious that such a service is an essential requirement, even for the House in its present form.
I say to noble Lords that one should hasten slowly. Such advice may be regarded as an impertinence coming from me. This may sound a little odd, but I would be careful about wild experiments. That does not mean to say that there are not a number of things that could be done that would improve this House beyond all measure. First, the application of the Rules should be the same for all Members of the House regardless of whether they sit on the Government Front Bench or the Opposition Front Bench, regardless, indeed, of where they sit. This suggestion may cause the Leader of the House a slight upset or a rising of his blood pressure. But at present the Rules are not applied in this way. I listen to Statements and find that in contributions there is no pretence at all of an interrogative form being used. Rather, they take the form of speeches, particularly from the Liberal Benches. We have to go through this dreary business in which someone speaks on behalf of the Government, then, quite rightly, someone speaks for the Conservative Opposition. But then there must be a Liberal speaker, although they have nothing to say. Thank
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God there is not a Communist here, otherwise we should have to have a Communist joining in on such occasions, or perhaps, one day, a Member representing the Flat Earth Society! There could be innumerable people all wanting to get up and yet say nothing. I believe that the Rules of the House should be universally applied.
I come now to my second point, and this excites me as an ex-Member of the House of Commons. Noble Lords get up and actually read supplementary questions. This type of situation is bad enough with speeches. This is supposed to be a place of debate. I recall what I learned from my noble friend Lord Shinwell a long time ago when I was a Parliamentary Secretary. He said to me after my maiden speech that it was a place of debate, and added: "Don't let me ever hear you saying. ' I hope that the honourable Member will excuse me if I do not follow him ',"Of course one should follow him, there should be a continuity in debate. Questions are being debated. There are clashes of opinion, and this brings life into discussions.
We must remember that if our discussions are to be worth while they should not be confined to ourselves. This is not a private debating Chamber. It is a forum and it ought to be making its impact right across the nation. It can do that only if there is virility. It is not possible to have virility if a Member writes out a speech and then proceeds to mumble it. If noble Lords and noble Baronesses want to read their speeches, why not, in this bicentennial year, have the American system? The speeches can be handed into Hansard and printed, and so we can read them in the Record. But I say to these noble Lords and noble Baronesses: for God sake spare the rest of us from having to listen to these speeches! What I have been suggesting are simple measures, which I believe could he introduced. As I have said, we could improve the Library service.
Now I come to something else. In this place Ministers of the Crown are answering collectively. To my mind they should accept the discipline of not answering Questions for which they have no responsibility. In the other place the Table looks at Questions and will not accept them unless governmental responsibility is involved. For noble Lords to

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put down Questions for which Ministers have no responsibility is an abuse of the Order Paper. Ministers themselves do the cause of democracy no good, nor do they serve the Government or even the person who has put down the Question, because this is a sloppy, lazy way to behave. The Questions should be thought out, and they should be Questions for which the Government are responsible. Supplementary questions, too, should have to pass exactly the same test. It may well be said that I am moving towards a chairman. Yes, I am. I am moving towards a chair, and I am moving towards what any decent debating society will have. That is what your Lordships want: rules for debate; rules which have to be adhered to and which lead to orderly debate—orderly debate on the basis of the responsibility of Ministers to answer and the responsibility of the questioner. My Lords, these are not revolutionary proposals but they are essential if this place is to develop as a forum of the nation.
I would say only this in conclusion. What I know about Parliamentary procedure I learned as a Member of the House of Commons, starting off sitting on the other side of this Chamber. I did not learn it from Erskine May, although I always bought a copy; I learned it from a Conservative Member of the House of Commons, the late Lord Winterton. He loved the House of Commons, and I quickly realised it. Although many on our side of the House thought he was a bloody old fool, he loved the House of Commons and knew what it was all about and that was good enough for me. He was also, I may say, a great friend of my noble friend Lord Shinwell. They were referred to at the time as "Arsenic and Old Lace ". A Parliamentary secret which I have never yet discussed is: who was "Old Lace "and who was "Arsenic "? I leave that to your Lordships.
5.32 p.m.
Lord DOUGLAS of BARLOCH: My Lords, much as I am tempted to follow my noble friend Lord Wigg, I do not want to detain your Lordships very long but I am going to refer to what the Lord Chairman of Committees said about Private Bill legislation. I think he is abso-
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lately right in saying that the time has arrived when this matter ought to be considered from its foundations. Private Bill legislation was originally intended to serve the purpose of providing a solution to one local problem, such as giving a local authority power to build a bridge and to acquire the land in order to build the approaches; it was not intended to be a means of altering the general law of this country. That is where the whole trouble has arisen; and I am sure it is right that the general law should not be altered piecemeal and in varying directions by a multiplicity of local Acts. It should be done by general legislation, which would apply equally to every local authority. Let the local authorities pro mote legislation for the limited purpose of acquiring powers for some special transitory purpose, and let it be part of that legislation that after a period—five or ten years—it should automatically lapse and not encumber the Statute Book any longer.
5.34 p.m.
Viscount AMORY: My Lords, I shall detain your Lordships for only two or three minutes. I am going to resist the invitation extended by the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, to follow him in this debate. I do not wish to follow him on weighing up the pros and cons of suicide or murder. I take a poor view of both. I am not sure, if I had the choice, that I would not rather be murdered than commit suicide, but that might be the subject for another debate. But if one attempted to follow all the points raised by the noble Lord. Lord Wigg, in any of his speeches I personally would feel like the medieval herald of whom it was said that he leapt on his horse and galloped off madly in all directions.
What I really want to say, my Lords, is how interested I was in the various thoughts that the noble Lord the Leader of the House put to us in his agreeable speech this afternoon. I agreed with him very much that, so far as your Lordships' House is concerned, I think a good start has been made in studying the Directives and the other proposed forms of legislation in the EEC. Obviously, we have to go further, but I believe that your Lordships' House is well suited to the kind of study that should be made of these Directives, and other things, with a view to reporting to your Lordships

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those that seem most important and relevant and which your Lordships will wish to debate.
I was particularly interested in what the noble Lord said about a possible system whereby more preliminary consideration would be given to potential legislation. I realise all the difficulties of that, but I believe it would be useful if a system could be worked out, together with the other place, by which this became a growing practice. Personally, I think the growing practice in recent years of producing a Green Paper as a preliminary to a White Paper and then to subsequent legislation is good in itself, because I think the noble Lord will agree with me that very often the Government find themselves committed by a White Paper and find it a little more difficult to change their minds after a White Paper. That is where I think a Green Paper, or some other form of consideration, might be invaluable. I also believe 'that your Lordships' House has in its membership much expert experience which would be invaluable in such a preliminary process.
The third point I wanted to make is that I could not agree more with what my noble friend Lord Carrington and the noble Lord, Lord Byers, said about the volume of legislation. I think it is deplorable, the way successive Governments take a pride in boasting at the end of a Session about the number of Bills which they have succeeded in forcing through the processes of Parliament, with the result that far too many Bills are exuded from these processes ill-drafted, ill-considered and greatly to the confusion of the public at large. My Lords, if only we could get back to a practice which was followed during some parts of the last century. I remember reading of one of the Prime Ministers of the last century who said to his colleagues some time in July: "I have thought hard, and I cannot think of a single Bill that it would be advisable to put to Parliament during the next four or five months. I therefore suggest that the Parliamentary Recess this year, starting at the end of July, should be extended to at least January and, perhaps, on further consideration, until later in the spring ". I think that if we move back a little in that direction the legislation which would go through would be better, and would be far more under
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standable and acceptable to the public at large.
5.38 p.m.
Lord SHEPHERD: My Lords, I will be brief. I think we have had a very useful debate. I shall look with very great care and attention at the various suggestions that have been made; and the Committee, when it is set up, will, I know, pay special regard to some of the suggestions of the noble Lord, Lord Tranmire, and also my noble friend Lord Pannell. I would say only this to my noble friend Lord Wigg, that we in this House of course enjoy debate, and some of us who have never been in another place watch with a degree of admiration, and sometimes with a sense of despair, the debating styles brought from another place to your Lordships' House. One thing I am absolutely certain about is that if we did have the debating styles of another place as displayed to us this afternoon by my noble friend Lord Wigg and my noble friend Lord Pannell, a chairman of the House would be inevitable because it would not be possible to maintain the degree of decorum and restraint that we exercise and which makes it possible for us to conduct our business as we now do.
My own view—and I say this quite frankly to my noble friend Lord Wigg—is that the flexibility in this House is something that the other place would very much like to have. But I would say this in conclusion to my noble friend. I believe that Parliament is more than a theatre; it is a workshop. If I could be arrogant for a few moments on behalf of this House I would say, without any fear at all of correction, that the Scrutiny Committee that we have set up for the EEC—not only its method but the depth into which it goes into those matters—is not only a credit to this House but the envy of another place. It shows that Parliament is not solely that of the theatre or that of a sense of satisfaction in having scored a debating point off another. I know that there are some noble Lords who regret that the two Front Benches are not perpetually at each others' throats. I am delighted that during my two years as Leader the noble Lord. Lord Carrington, and I have not had a single row. That is not an invitation that we should start to do so next week. There have been occasions during my period of 22

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years here when the temperature undoubtedly has been high; but it has been high only very briefly, for there is a recognition that if we allow temperatures to remain high, the procedures under which we work would quickly disappear.
I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Tranmire, speaking of pheasants, partridges and other birds and their connection with the way in which this House and Parliament arrange their business. Then is one way in which we could relieve ourselves of a great deal of the pressure of June and July. We ourselves could do it without any Constitutional change at all. There is no reason why this House should sit concurrently with another place. We could meet at different times in the year. This House could rise for July and August and come back early in September, to take the load then. But these are matters which clearly could be considered by the Committees. I hope that they will not refrain from putting in interim Reports; because if they have some idea that will be helpful immediately, I think we should have it and implement it as quickly as possible.
I have a feeling that the debate represents the view of the House that the Committee should be established. The noble Lord, Lord Carrington, asked why it was that the Motion was merely to "take note". I have already said that I have been in this House for 22 years. I have learned that it is often best to walk cautiously, and sometimes in circles, if what you want to achieve may prove a little too radical for this House. I think that my noble friend Lord Pannell touched on this in relation to the restaurant facilities and the reluctance of Labour Peers, I think it was that we felt we were going to be swamped by another place. Having lived for a few years now with some of my colleagues from another place—and they are not quite so bad as we may have thought them to be—if overtures were made perhaps we might have a different response.
I hope that the Committee will be set up; that we shall give careful consideration to its Chairman and membership and to the good relations that are already well established and developing between the two Houses; and that these two Committees (one appointed in the Com-
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mons and one appointed here) may be able to go into all the problems and seek ways and means of improving not only the lot of Members themselves but also the power of scrutiny and control over the Executive about which the noble Lord, Lord Carrington spoke. I hope that the promise I made (and I say it with expectation) as to legislation before Easter will be complied with. I think that is all I wish to say. I thank noble Lords for their contributions today, and when the Motion for setting up the Committee is put, I hope that it will be accepted by this House without further debate.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

WATER CHARGES BILL
5.55 p.m.
Lord JACQUES: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lady Birk, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, that the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Jacques.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The Baroness WOOTTON Of ABINGER in the Chair.]
Clause 1 [Duty of water authorities to refund certain charges]:
The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of the ENVIRONMENT(Baroness Birk)The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of the ENVIRONMENT(Baroness Birk) moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 1, line 12, after (" date ") insert (" together with any associated legal costs ").
The noble Baroness said: With the leave of the Committee I should like to move Amendment No. 1 and to speak to Amendment No. 2.The purpose of these Amendments is to provide for the refund of court costs incurred by ratepayers without sewerage who withheld their general services charge and whose rating authority applied for a distress warrant or took out a summons against them. Where the costs were incurred through resisting a charge that was declared by this House to have been illegally demanded, it is right that those costs should be refunded.
I am happy to say that there are likely to be very few cases where a summons was taken out, and we have heard of none where a distress warrant was applied for solely in respect of general services charges withheld on unconnected properties because local authorities were advised not to pursue recovery of these charges while the Daymond case was still undecided. It appears that very few authorities ignored our advice.
When the issue of "legal costs "arose in another place it was clear that there was a very strong feeling that we should provide for refunds of court costs incurred in respect of the illegal charges. Those who spoke were particularly concerned that costs awarded in court against a ratepayer who withheld an illegal charge should be refunded. I am happy that in these Amendments we are now able to meet the point. I beg to move.
The Earl of KINNOULL The Earl of KINNOULL moved as an Amendment to the Amendment:
Line 2, after (" legal ") insert (" or surveyors' ").
The noble Earl said: I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name. I welcome the Government's change of mind on this issue of legal costs. The Committee will remember that in another place the Government were somewhat on the horns of a dilemma. Looking back to the proceedings in another place and to the Government reply at the time when pressed by all sides to allow legal costs incurred, one finds that their spokesman said:
" We have found that there would be insuperable difficulties about trying to define legitimate costs."
I am very glad that they have been able to overcome these insuperable difficulties.
I should declare an interest—although I continue to declare my interests in this field—that is, I believe where you have this situation professional costs incurred should be refunded, not just legal costs. I use the words "or surveyors "in my Amendment simply to point out that there are other professions involved in rating. Surveyors are often called in specifically to advise on rating problems and rating valuations. There could well have been cases where surveyors were called to act as expert witnesses or even advise the client with the client not calling upon a solicitor to assist. I hope the
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noble Baroness will consider the principle of my Amendment sympathetically even if she cannot agree with the wording. I beg to move.
5.51 p.m.
Baroness BIRK: While I understand and sympathise to a great extent with the thinking behind this Amendment—and the noble Earl has explained its effect, that it should cover professional costs and not just surveyor's costs—it opens that particular cost door very wide. The reason for the Government Amendment is that it is specific; it uses established concepts and it meets the points raised by the Opposition in another place. It does precisely what the solicitors asked for when they wrote to the Member in another place, Miss Janet Fookes, regarding court costs. I do not think in this case it would matter whether it was a lawyer who was involved in court costs or a surveyor We have to draw a line; where do you begin and where do you end? The claim for costs could be endless. People could claim for travelling expenses, telephone calls, postages and make their own estimate of the time and trouble involved. As we know, some people will go to a solicitor or surveyor at the first sign of trouble. Being married to a solicitor has its advantages. Nevertheless, in this instance, where it is public cost involved, it has its disadvantages.
If there were cases—and I have already pointed out we do not know of any—where a distress warrant has been issued, I am inclined to take the view that certainly the Member of Parliament in the area might well have been in touch with us. If a case arose and the ratepayer went to his solicitors or conceivably a surveyor for advice, I feel certain the water authority concerned would look sympathetically at the matter it it were brought to their attention. Although there is no question of putting this in the Bill, the water authority in that case would probably be prepared to consider making an ex gratia payment if solicitors fees had to be paid. But such cases must be very few indeed.
An important point about this is that this can increase the charges for other users. We know that the effect of the original Act has caused difficulties and we are hoping in this Bill to deal with these problems. These matters have

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been gone into carefully and I have discussed the points raised in another place and the general point the noble Earl raised. The solution agreed on in another place was that costs should be limited to court costs. These are defined in the Amendment which follows in my name on the Marshalled List of Amendments. I hope that the noble Earl, having aired this matter and made some interesting points, will now withdraw his Amendment.
The Earl of KINNOULL: I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her courtesy in replying fully to my Amendment. So far as looking after the increasing costs of those who have to foot the Bill is concerned, I do not think that is the point here; what we are looking for is a fair refunding for anyone who has had to pay these legal costs. The point was made in another place that the costs of a case are taxed in a court; I am saddened because the Government could not see that there might be a way round this which would allow the court to tax the costs, rather than simply allowing legal costs. I am glad that the water authorities would look sympathetically on any additional cost; I assume they would have power to do so. It is a well-known phrase among statutory bodies that they do not have power to be sympathetic. I do not know whether the noble Baroness would comment on that before I withdraw my Amendment.
Baroness BIRK: I thought water authorities might be sympathetic; that is my general informal understanding. It is a question of making an ex gratia payment. We have not heard of any cases and there are likely to be very few, if any. On the earlier point about the taxing of costs, one of the difficulties is that in a magistrates' court it is unlikely that costs would have been taxed because the amounts involved are likely to be small.
The Earl of KINNOULL: I am grateful for those words. I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment to the Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES: We now revert to Amendment No. 1, unamended.
Lord SANDFORD: On behalf of my noble friends, and my honourable and right honourable friends in another place, I think the Government have succeeded in meeting the main points that were being made in another place. I should like to associate my noble friend Lady Vickers with those remarks. She used to represent the part of the country in which the case in question arose and has been following the matter closely. Unfortunately, my noble friend cannot be with us today. She, too, will be satisfied that the Government have succeeded in meeting a very vexed and difficult situation.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
5.59 p.m.
The Earl of KINNOULL The Earl of KINNOULL moved Amendment No. 1A:
Page 1, line 16, at end insert:
(" Provided that in the case of such charges paid by a public Corporation or other body within the public Sector the duty of water authorities to make such refunds shall not take effect until 1st April 1977.")
The noble Earl said: I must apologise for any confusion but I hope that my manuscript Amendment has been circulated. This was discussed in another place but I felt it was of such merit that it was worth airing in this Committee. Its purpose is to allow the water authorities, when refunding legal costs, to stagger the refunding over a period of two years. The first group, and undoubtedly the most important, concerns the domestic users; the second, equally important but perhaps not so essential regarding the financial situation, concerns the national corporations. The whole problem with this emergency Bill is the balance between those who will be, quite properly, refunded and those who will have to foot the bill.
It was a previous Government which drafted the Bill in 1973 and I believe that a number of your Lordships feel, as I do, that, as it was the clear intention of that Government and of Parliament that water authorities should have the power to levy these sewarage charges on unconnected users, it is a little hard suddenly to find now that there is a bill of some £60 million to be refunded. It falls first on the water authority and then on the ratepayer. I do not think I am alone in believing that where the Government draft a Bill of this nature and where

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It gives the new authority the powers, and obviously advises the new authority about them, they cannot and should not wash their hands of the responsibility. Of course, we know that the Government have made that decision, as was made clear by the Lady Baroness, Lady Birk, on Second Reading.
Where is this £60 million to be refunded? It has not perhaps been made very clear in many peoples' minds that the vast majority of the sum involved—something like £35 million and £40 million, or over 60 per cent.—is to go to the national corporations: to the National Coal Board, to the Electricity Board and, I believe, even to the water board. Some £12,500,000 is to go to industry, and only £21,500,000, or 20 per cent., is to go to the domestic user. I am told that this represents something like £60 for an average house with a rateable value of about £200. The effect on the ratepayer in having to pay this £60 million is estimated to mean something like 20 or 30 per cent. on their water charges for next year. So this is not a small figure and, of course, most of the ratepayers will be domestic users.
The purpose of this Amendment, as I said, is to enable the staggering of the enormous load on the water authorities for the refunding they are doing over two years. I do not know whether the public corporations have been approached on this, but if they have I should be interested to hear what they have said. The reply of the Government in another place was that they felt it was rather hard on the public corporations, who were struggling to make ends meet already, to ask for this not to be done this year. I do not find that very convincing. I think that any public corporation or industrial body is very distinct from a domestic user. They will have made their own provisions and their calculations, and the fact that they are getting almost a bounty of a very large figure will be something to their benefit and not some thing they have missed.
Another point which was made by the Government in Committee was that the water authorities have power under Clause 1(6) to stagger the recoupment of the charges over two or three years. I do not think that the Bill specifically contains those words, but they have these
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powers and it does not say that they should not. Perhaps I might quote the exact words of the Minister during the Committee stage. He said:
" The Bill allows regional water authorities to consider recovering the money in instalments. Local authorities, on the whole, have said that they do not want that because it would create serious cash flow problems for them. They would have to borrow money for that purpose and pay interest charges."— [Official Report, Commons, 18/2/76; col. 1312.]
I find that very difficult to follow, because if the water authorities are willing to wait another year to receive this £35 million or £40 million, where is the cost to the local authorities? The truth is—perhaps it is a sad one—that the whole issue of the recoupment and the payment of this refund has already been settled: in fact, we are probably wasting our time talking about it because it is already in the computers of local authorities. I would ask the noble Baroness to confirm whether or not this is true and whether the local authorities have already fed in and taken into account the necessary figure involved in order to issue the new rate demands on 1st April. If that is true, it is a serious breach of Parliamentary procedure.
That is the purpose of this Amendment and I apologise for taking up the time of the Committee, but I feel that this is a fundamental issue. I beg to move.
Baroness BIRK: I would ask the Committee to resist this Amendment, and I very much hope that the noble Earl will not press it. He is right in saying that it is absolutely true that all the charges have been calculated and communicated to the local authorities. They are on a computer and ready to go out. The effect of the noble Earl's Amendment would be that around 18 million ratepayers would be charged in any case. Another effect would be that the water authorities would make a profit for this year, but then, of course, Nemesis would come and it would have to be put back the following year. Delaying refunds in this way would greatly complicate the administrative mechanics of the refunds and would therefore make the whole administration more expensive. It would thus increase the bill to be met by everybody else.
I must remind the noble Earl that this arose as a result of a ruling of the Appellate Court of this House. Once

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that occurred, it is up to any Government—this is not a question of Party politics—to do what they can immediately to implement such a finding. This is how justice works in this country, however uncomfortable it may be on occasions; and therefore I really cannot accept the point made by the noble Earl that it was quite wrong for this to be done. It had been generally agreed and it had to be done. I stress that there has been no disagreement within Parliament, in another place and in this House, that this should not be done. Therefore, once there was this general consensus, the next point was to determine how it could be done in the most expeditious way and in a way which would cause the least trouble and expense, and could be done with the greatest ease, so that the problem could be quickly dispensed with.
I think I should also point out that the noble Earl does not seem to have taken into account that illegal charges paid by public sector bodies are just as illegal as those paid by any one else, and there is no reason why public sector bodies and nationalised industries should get specially unfavourable treatment, which is in fact what this Amendment would mean. Because of the peculiarities of cumulo rating, the public sector bodies will need to be treated in a different way, but they certainly do not qualify for special treatment, nor should they be penalised by it. If they need to wait another year for their refunds, this will have the effect that consumers of the commodities for which they are responsible—for example, gas, electricity and so on—will be subsidising the water charges, and cross-subsidisation is certainly a very bad thing in economic terms. The noble Earl distinguished between the domestic consumer and the nationalised industries, but the domestic consumer is also, of course, a consumer of gas and electricity, as well as of the services of the Post Office and all the other bodies in the public sector. So that if we proceeded in the way suggested by the noble Earl, he would be paying higher prices for all the other services which he uses and I do not think that would help anyone.
As the noble Earl knows, this kite was flown in exactly the same terms in another place and was then withdrawn. But an arrangement has now been made and
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the agreed percentage that the nationalised industries should pay will shortly be announced. As I said, there are a number of items for which they are responsible—for example, Post Office mail boxes, pylons, cables and pipes—and for which there is no sewerage, and it was necessary to prescribe a percentage in the collection of charges order. This has not yet been announced, but I expect that it will be around 50 per cent. It is probable that the nationalised industries would get higher refunds if they were subject to the normal test of connection, so that, taking it all round, I must come back to the point that this is the best possible method. Any other system would not only be impractical but would also be quite wrong and of no benefit to the domestic consumer, because what he did not pay in one way, he would pay in higher prices.
The Earl of KINNOULL: I am grateful to the noble Baroness for that reply. May I ask her whether the nationalised corporations were consulted on this issue and whether they expressed a view, or are we to look forward to lower electricity costs in the next year because the Electricity Board is getting back this large sum? Will there be this benefit which the noble Baroness mentioned? I feel that the Government's reply was good theoretical stuff, but not sympathetic. The whole point is that it is the ratepayers who foot the bill, and we know very well that over the last two years the question of rates has become a very sensitive issue. Everything must be done to avoid further escalation of the rates. This is something which has not been the responsibility of local government, and it is very naughty indeed of the Government to turn around and wash their hands of responsibility.
I should like to ask the noble Baroness one further question. Who organised the local authorities to put this large bill on their computers? Was it the Government who organised it on a national level, or did each local authority take an individual decision? I do not know how my Front Bench feels about this, but I think it is very rare indeed to find a Bill of this nature on which the decision has already been made by the Government, and which both Houses of Parliament are being asked to rubber stamp.
Lord NUGENT of GUILDFORD: I hesitate to take part in this debate in which I have such a close interest, but I might just add a piece of information as a matter of fact on the point that my noble friend Lord Kinnoull has inquired about. There was a very long and complicated discussion between the water authorities as to whether they should ask for the repayment to be spread out over two or more years, or whether they should ask for repayment in one year. This was considered in very great detail and it was their decision, unanimously expressed, upon which the Government finally acted after the water authorities had passed their opinion to the Department of the Environment. That was the decision which actuated the local authorities. The local authorities' considerations were, of course, taken into account, but the water authorities themselves gave very careful thought to this matter, and one of the major factors which was in their minds was the wish to avoid getting into deficit.
My noble friend has spoken fairly lightly of what the consequences would have been had these payments been with held from the other nationalised industries for a year. But I cannot see the other nationalised industries lightly lending £30 million or £40 million to the water industry, without expecting something back for it—because that is what they would have been forced to do. So either they would have been forced to make loans, which I should think they would have been very unwilling to do, or the Government would themselves have had to make a loan. One thing the water authorities concluded, although they would have liked the Government to pick up the bill, was that they did not want to start deficit financing in the water industry. As we look around other nationalised industries, we see that this is the path to disaster. We are a new nationalised corporation, we are not in deficit and I hope we never shall be. But nothing is more undermining to the management strength and morale of an industry than deficit financing from the Government. So that this factor was very much in the minds of my friends in the water authorities when they finally agreed that the right course was to ask the Department of the Environment to give them the necessary powers to make the whole of the repayment in one year.
Viscount AMORY: Will my noble friend have those wise words, which he has just uttered, framed and put up in the boardroom of every water authority in the country?
Baroness BIRK: There is very little to add, because we have had the benefit of hearing the facts of the situation put very clearly and succinctly by the noble Lord, Lord Nugent. I would just answer one outstanding point which the noble Earl put to me. He asked whether the nationalised industries had been consulted about the matter and the answer is, Yes, there have been consultations all the way through with the nationalised industries, including the water industry, and also with the local authorities. There has been complete and constant communication. There has been no question of the Government washing their hands of anything. Having again had this point very well and clearly aired, I hope that the noble Earl will withdraw his Amendment.
The Earl of KINNOULL: I shall certainly withdraw, but I should first like to thank my noble friend Lord Nugent for intervening and helping the Committee in regard to this Amendment. He certainly helped me, for which I am grateful. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness BIRK: I spoke to Amendment No. 2 with Amendment No. 1. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 16, at end insert—
" (1A) In subsection (1)(a) above "associated legal costs "means any costs awarded in relation to a summons under Part VI of the General Rate Act 1967 issued solely in respect of non-payment of a general services charge under one or other of the orders mentioned in that paragraph or in relation to the obtaining of a warrant of distress under the said Part VI in respect of such a non-payment."— (Baroness Birk.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
6.19 p.m.
Baroness BIRK Baroness BIRK moved Amendment No. 3:
Page 2, line 28, leave out (" communicating directly or indirectly ") and insert ("connecting, either directly or through an intermediate sewer or drain,").
The noble Baroness said: With the leave of the Committee, I shall deal with this Amendment and Amendment No. 4 together. These Amendments are intended to clarify the definition of "properties without sewerage". They make clear that a property is without sewerage, unless there is a formal and physical connection between a property and the public sewers; that is, by a pipe which carries the effluent from the property to the public sewer. The Amendment changes the definition only to ensure that it should be easily understood. If your Lordships remember, the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, raised this point during the Second Reading debate, and I explained that it is really a clarification and does not alter the substance at all. Nobody wants another Daymond case to come about because this Bill is not clear, and further we do not want to increase the workload of local authorities.
As I stressed on Second Reading, when I indicated that I was going to move these Amendments, they are designed to make the situation crystal clear. It has become obvious from comments made by several honourable Members in another place, and as a result of representation from local authorities, that the Bill as previously drafted could have been open to more than one interpretation. The problem arose principally from the concept of indirect connection to surface water drain age which might have been taken to include a case where the water ran off the roof, over the pavement and into a gutter, and it began to appear that the number of cases in which disputes might arise was almost endless. Therefore, obviously we had to do something about it.
It is right that those who receive a service from a water authority should pay, and that clearly includes those who have surface water drainage. However, we have to be sure that the existence of the service can be clearly established and that the service is available specifically to the property that is being charged. We are covering the case where the water may get into the sewer by accident, so we are confident that the Amendment will remove these doubts and will ensure that only those who definitely receive a service can be charged. I beg to move.
Lord SANDFORD: I am grateful to the noble Baroness for that explanation, and I believe the Amendment meets the case as well as can possibly be expected.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
6.23 p.m.
Baroness BIRK: I beg to move Amendment No. 4.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 34, leave out (" communicating ") and insert (" connecting ").—(Baroness Birk.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
On Question, Whether Clause 1, as amended, shall stand part of the Bill?
Lord WINSTANLEY: I have no wish to detain the Committee, but two questions arise from Clause 1 to which I should like an answer. Subsection (1) makes it clear that the duty to make refunds arises only on the1st April 1976; but, as the noble Baroness explained to us on Second Reading, it has been agreed that as a matter of administrative convenience with local authorities the refunds will take the form of rebates from next year's rates demands. My first question is this: What will be the position of a person who will qualify for a rebate but who has subsequently removed from that address and therefore will not be paying rates at all and will not receive a rate demand in that area?
My second point arising out of Clause 1 is that subsection (2) provides for refunds to be abated to take account of any rate relief paid in 1974 or 1975. The noble Baroness explained clearly that but for this some people would be getting back more than they actually paid. When we look at urban properties in places such as the town of Warrington, where there are a number of poor properties including terrace houses which have no sanitation at all, and where we are dealing with people of very low income, many of the people concerned will probably be entitled to a rebate; but there will also be people who are in receipt of rate rebates, which is a rather different thing from rate relief. I just wonder what kind of position will arise there, and I should be grateful if the noble Baroness could deal with those matters before we leave this clause.
The Earl of KINNOULL: Before the noble Baroness replies, I should like to

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ask two other questions. The first concerns the date, the 1st April 1976. She said a little earlier that she was keen that the Bill should be absolutely clear, and I must admit that on reading the Bill it looks as though those who are entitled to the refund will get it on 2nd April. Would it not be better, in view of all the administrative detail and difficulties that must follow from this Bill, that there should be inserted the words:
" on 1st April 1976 or as quickly as possible "?
That would show a certain flexibility for the water authorities who have this duty to refund, and it may lead to a certain understanding by those who anticipate receiving the refund.
My second question—and this is an important factor—is: Is there a time limit by which these refunds must be claimed? Is it up to those who are entitled to receive a refund to claim it, or has the water authority to assume all the varying difficulties, including the sale of houses, new owners, and so on, when dealing with this problem? Referring to subsection (1)(d) where it refers to the "relevant date ", this point was raised in another place and it was said then that, if necessary, the matter would be discussed in this House. If perchance a house should have a water main burst on the relevant date, technically at that stage it would not have a supply of water and therefore would it be entitled to are bate? It is only a small point, but I should like the noble Baroness to reply to it. Finally, can the noble Baroness say whether the water authority intends to advertise the refunds that are due?
Baroness BIRK: I should like, first, to reply to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley. The problem of people moving is already being taken into account and in the advertisements that will appear directly the Bill goes through Parliament—because it would be wrong to put out advertisements before it goes through—it will be publicly stated, including by means of the radio, that where people have moved, they will be asked to let the authority, either in the district from where they have come or that to which they have gone, know their old address. It is important that they should do this because, where they have had a 50 per cent. rebate under the old system,
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the authority there will know who is entitled to the refund but if the people themselves do not hear from the authority then they should claim it.
With regard to the point concerning people in receipt of a rate rebate, as this will not be paid out in cash it is a case of the refund being credited on the general rate account. It will be on their general rate. I believe the noble Earl is thinking of people who, because they are in receipt of a rate rebate, would therefore not be able to have any rate refund credited to them. In those cases they will be paid directly in cash.
I think the noble Earl has rather misunderstood the case because, except for the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley, people will not be paid in cash. It will be credited to their rate charge for the following year, and there fore it does not really matter if the date is the 1st or the 2nd April because the principle will still apply. Obviously, there will be flexibility, and, as I said in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Winstanley, the local authorities will have a note of the people to whom they have paid back the 50 per cent. charge. We will be stressing in our publicity that people should know that they must ask for this credit. At the moment, there is not a time limit, but since the refunds are taking place next year, one would assume that people will want to get their refunds credited as soon as possible. So I do not think that point will arise.
I have dealt with the question of advertising. On the point about burst water mains, we must rely on common sense and rough justice. We cannot cover every possible eventuality. All the way through there has been the closest consultation with local authorities in all these things, and in most cases such matters will be satisfactorily sorted out.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 2 [Water authorities' power to charge]:
6.31 p.m.
Baroness BIRK Baroness BIRK moved Amendment No. 5:
Page 3, line 39, leave out (" communicating directly or indirectly ") and insert (" connecting, either directly or through an intermediate sewer or drain,")
The noble Baroness said: With the leave of the Committee I will speak to

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Amendments Nos. 5 and 6 together. These Amendments apply the same definition of a sewered property for future charging as that used to determine eligibility for re funds. These Amendents are consequential to Amendments Nos. 3 and 4. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Baroness BIRK: I beg to move Amendment No. 6.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 45, leave out (" communicating ") and insert (" connecting ").—(Baroness Birk.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Baroness BIRK Baroness BIRK moved Amendment No. 7:
Page 4, line 1, leave out from (" rating ") to end of line 4.
The noble Baroness said: With the leave of the Committee, in moving this Amendment I will speak to Amendment No. 8 at the same time. These are Amendments of drafting rather than of substance. Their main purpose is to ensure that the Water Authorities (Collection of Charges) Order 1976 can provide for a percentage charge to the formula-rated nationalised industries—electricity, gas, the Post Office, and the water industry itself—on a similar basis to that provided for refunds. As I said on Second Reading, there are special problems in charging these industries for sewerage and sewage disposal and so they have to be treated in a special way. Obviously, we want to ensure that there can be a percentage charge to the industries next year, just as there will be a percentage refund of the charges they have paid over the last two years. As I am advised, it is possible to interpret the Bill, as previously drafted, in such a way as to preclude a percentage charge for next year. I consider that these Amendments are necessary to clarify the position. I beg to move.
Lord. SANDFORD: I am entirely agreeable to Amendments Nos. 7 and 8, but as we are dealing with both at once, I should like to ask the noble Baroness, Lady Birk, a question. What on earth is sub-paragraph (2)(ccb)? I think it is just the computer, but there may be more to it than that.
Baroness BIRK: I think it is the Water Authorities (Collection of Charges) Order to which I referred.
Lord SANDFORD: I do not think the noble Baroness need worry about this.
Baroness BIRK: This is Clause 1(8). It is something rather complicated and detailed, but I think I gave the gist of it.
Lord SANDFORD: I am sure that the noble Baroness gave the gist of it absolutely splendidly, but I still think there is a misprint there.
Baroness BIRK: If I may, I will look into it, to make sure. If there is a misprint, I will write to the noble Lord, Lord Sandford.
Lord SANDFORD: Do not worry about it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Baroness BIRK: I beg to move Amendment No. 8.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 37, at end insert:
"( ) At the end of paragraph 5(2) of Schedule 6 to the Water Act 1973 there shall be added the following sub-paragraph:
" (3) Without prejudice to the generality of sub-paragraph (2)(c) above, an order may include provision for calculations on a special basis or bases of amounts payable in respect of here ditaments specified by virtue of sub-paragraph (2)(ccb) above."."—[Baroness Birk.]
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
6.36 p.m.
The Earl of KINNOULL The Earl of KINNOULL moved Amendment No. 9:
After Clause 2, insert the following new clause:
Charges by local authority to cleanse cesspools, etc.
" .— After subsection (1) of section 74 of the Public Health Act, 1936, there are inserted the following subsections:—
(" (1A) A local authority shall not under sub section (I) of this section charge, in any year in respect of any here ditament without sewerage, for cleansing any earth closet, privy, as hpit or cesspool, more than the total sums which would have been charged by the water authority in that year in respect of the said here ditament for sewerage and sewage disposal if the said here ditament had not been without sewerage.
Provided that for the purpose of calculating the said sums the value of the said here ditament shall not be included in any totals of

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values of here ditaments not without sewerage in the area of the water authority.
(1B) For the purposes of subsections (1) and (1A) above

(a) "hereditament "has the meaning assigned to it by section 115(1) of the General Rate Act 1967, and

(b) a hereditament is without sewerage if it it is a hereditament without sewerage for the purposes of section 1 of the Water Charges Act 1976."

The noble Earl said: I beg to move Amendment No. 9. I hope I can explain the gist of the purpose of this Amendment because it deals with earth closets, privies, as hpits or cesspools. The Daymond case proved to be something of an empiric victory for those owners of properties with cesspool drainage, because they now see that the costs of emptying the cesspools has changed, and could change quite dramatically. The simple purpose of this Amendment is to put a maximum limit, for the time being, on the charge that a local authority may levy on the owner of a property with a cesspool.
The Committee will recall that it was the clear wish of Parliament that local authorities should continue to have the responsibility for cesspools when the water authorities were set up and when, indeed, the water authorities took on the duty of general drainage. Prior to the Daymond case, I think I am right in saying, cesspool owners faced two charges: a general charge put through the local authorities from the water authorities for the treatment of cesspool sewage, and a charge every time the local authority emptied their cesspool. The emptying charge was in the region of about £6.50 a visit, and some properties were visited about four times a year. Therefore, there was a direct charge to the local authority of about £24, and approximately £6 through the local authority from the water authority. We thus took a gross figure prior to the Daymond case of about £30 a year.
With the Daymond case decided, understand that the water authorities now feel that they should charge £2.40 per thousand gallons of cesspool drainage for treatment. I do not dispute that that is probably very fair. But the local authorities, partly because of the Daymond case, are altering their charges to the cesspool owners. Instead of charging an average sum per visit, they are deciding
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to charge also so much per thousand gallons. I am told that in some cases, particularly in Kent, there is thought of charging a gross fee of £10 per thousand gallons. If that is a figure one can go on, it is not beyond the wit of man to estimate that a household with, perhaps, three or four people, could find them selves with a bill of some £120 per house for sewage costs. This is clearly wrong, and I am sure is something with which the Government are not in full sympathy. If they cannot accept the wording of this Amendment, I hope that they will see the merit of it, which briefly is to limit the maximum charge that a local authority can make. Because of the fact that we are dealing with the Water Authority Act, and this also goes into the realm of the Public Health Act 1936, the second part of this Amendment covers that part to bring it into line. I beg to move.
Baroness BIRK: I must stress once again that this Bill is an emergency measure, designed, as I made clear on Second Reading and earlier in this Committee, to deal with problems that arise directly from the Daymond judgment. It is concerned really with nothing else at all, and it is not a suitable vehicle for bringing in other points, which, although of extreme importance, are nothing to do with the particular issue with which this Bill deals. It is essential, as we all know, that the Bill becomes law by 31st March if people are to get their refunds—and this is what the Bill is about—in the financial year1976–77. This point has been made very strongly to us by the local authority associations, who are quite content that the Bill should deal with this particular issue.
With regard to the Amendment, I can see the thinking behind it and its merits, but it introduces far-reaching changes which go quite outside the purpose of the Bill. It also raises questions which need fardeeper discussion and consideration than can possibly take place now in this particular context, which is quite wrong for it. That is why, as I said on Second Reading, the Government are to raise the issues for debate—and this particular issue will most certainly be raised—in the Consultation Paper on the Review of the Water Industry. This Consultation Paper will be published next week, and I am sure the noble Earl will

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agree, in view of that, that that is the place to discuss it, when the whole range of problems and future of the water industry will be discussed and consultations will be opened with everybody concerned. I therefore urge the Committee to reject this Amendment.
Lord SANDFORD: I wish the noble Baroness had started her remarks in response to my noble friend's Amendment with the latter part of her speech and indicated that she had sympathy with the point he was making, because I think he is making a good point. I have been less than enthusiastic in my support of my noble friend in what he said about Clause 1, but I think there is very real substance in what he is now saying. I would have to agree with the noble Baroness that this Bill, if it was to be enacted in time, had to be handled with dispatch; considerable consultations were required and it was well that they were concentrated on the issue raised by the Raymond case. But I hope that we could get her, either now or at the next stage, to be a little more forthcoming than to say that there is to be a review and that this matter will be contained within it. I hope we can get her to say that the legislation arising from the review will deal with this matter, because I think she can recognise from what my noble friend has said and from what has already emerged that there is a problem to be dealt with. We would not want to know at this stage precisely how it is to be dealt with, but we would not want this opportunity—and I think there is an opportunity here—to go by without being quite certain that there is to be a further opportunity in the fairly immediate future. Perhaps the noble Baroness would would like to respond to that now, but I should like to feel that she will certainly respond to it at the next stage, because otherwise I should feel inclined to encourage my noble friend to pursue the matter.
Baroness BIRK: Anything to stop the noble Lord encouraging his noble friend to pursue it gets me to my feet immediately. I think the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, was a little less than fair about the way I replied to the noble Earl. I am sure he will see when he reads Hansard tomorrow that I expressed both
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sympathy and understanding of the point of view. I was dealing with it in what I considered the correct logical sequence, dealing with the purpose of the Bill we are discussing and then explaining the framework in which the problems raised were to be discussed in the Consultation Paper.
If the noble Lord would like me to do so, I can certainly expand a little on that, but not to any very specific degree. The whole question of responsibility for emptying cesspools will be raised in the Consultation Paper on The Review of the Water Industry, but I cannot possibly pre-empt what will come out of it because it will be a paper open for consultation. It might be that the most sensible solution would be to transfer responsibility for emptying cesspools to water authorities, which would enable them to introduce comprehensive charging schemes so that everyone paid for the service he received, though I must point out that that might still mean cesspit owners paying more for the higher costs they impose. But these are difficult issues that will need to be discussed and considered further. Local authorities were anxious at the time of the passing of the Local Government Act toretain this responsibility. They will, therefore, wish to put their views, and will have to be given the opportunity of putting their views, on any transfer of function, and we will need to look carefully at what they have to say.
As I am sure noble Lords appreciate, a great deal of work has to be done, and a large number of people will have to be consulted before we can effect any fundamental rationalisation of the present system. It would be a great mistake—and I do not think the noble Earl is going to do this—on this occasion, or at a later stage of this Bill, to rush precipitately in any direction, particularly the one indicated by this Amendment. I would ask the noble Earl and Members of the Committee to accept at this moment that the Consultation Paper will be published next week, that this point will be one of the problems contained in that paper, and it will then be a matter of discussion and consultation. I cannot go any further; it would be quite wrong for me to do so, because I would be pre-empting the purpose of the paper, which is consultation.
The Earl of KINNOULL: I should like, first of all, to thank my noble friend Lord Sandford for his support on this Amendment, and indeed to congratulate him on extracting from the noble Baroness the further important information that the question of cesspools will be on the agenda under the review. I sincerely hope that it will receive a sympathetic hearing. I would say to the noble Baroness that, much as one appreciates that this is an emergency Bill, nevertheless one often comes out with consequences that one had not perhaps spotted at the time. I think this is one of the consequences that could have come out of it. I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for her second reply, which appeared to be much more sympathetic to the spirit of this Amendment than her first reply. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 3 agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported with the Amendments.

  AIR NAVIGATION ORDER 1974
  AIR NAVIGATION ORDER 1974