Sitting of 3 March 1975

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  WALES

    Sixth-Form Colleges
    Mr. Tom Ellisasked the Secretary of State for Wales what proportion of fifth-form scholars entered the sixth form colleges during this academic year in those areas in Wales which such colleges exist; how this compares with the proportion of sixth-formers to fifth-formers in neighbouring conventional secondary schools; and whether he will make a statement.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Barry Jones): The only sixth-form college in Wales was established in 1972. It has received about 17 per cent. of fifth-year pupils from its catchment area compared with 30 per cent. entering sixth forms in neighbouring secondary schools. By 1977, however, the proportion should approach that of neighbouring schools.
    Mr. Ellis: Does my hon. Friend appreciate that that is a disappointing answer? Does he agree that the sixth-form college is a major educational innovation which may bring forth unexpected and unlooked for results? Therefore, before agreeing to any additional schemes, will he make and publish an assessment for the whole community, using comprehensiveness as a criterion?
    Mr. Jones: It is a major innovation. I understand my hon. Friend's concern. I am opposed to selection at any stage of secondary education.
    Mr. D. E. Thomas: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that community colleges with open access for 16-to-18 year-olds are far preferable, both socially and
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    educationally, to sixth-form colleges, and will he ensure that plans for the establishment of such institutions in Wales are expanded?
    Mr. Jones: We in the Welsh Office are in no way bigoted or committed to one line in education. We always take on board experienced remarks such as those uttered by the hon. Member for Merioneth (Mr. Thomas).
    Mr. Kinnock: Does my hon. Friend agree that the criteria both of comprehensiveness and of open access to the community are satisfied in junior colleges which are situated in what hitherto were colleges of further education?
    Mr. Jones: I am inclined to agree with my hon. Friend about that.

    Welsh Development Agency
    Sir A. Meyerasked the Secretary of State for Wales whether the proposed Welsh Development Agency will be responsible to him or to the projected Welsh Assembly.
    The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. John Morris): When established the agency will be responsible to me. The precise nature of the relationship in the future between agency and Assembly remains for consideration.
    Sir A. Meyer: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that the Welsh Development Agency is a most welcome innovation if it means new jobs and the safeguarding of existing jobs? Is he also aware that it will be most unwelcome if it is to be used to enable a State grab of perfectly successful firms, and that it will be totally ineffective if it is to be at the mercy of political pressures and sectional local interests, which will happen if it is made responsible to an elected Welsh Assembly?
    Mr. Morris: I was glad to hear the hon. Gentleman's welcome for the Welsh Development Agency. This body will be a highly effective one, with a whole range of powers, and it will be able to act in such a way that the interests of the whole Principality are fully safeguarded.
    Mr. Ioan Evans: Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that there is a welcome in Wales for the establishment of the Welsh Development Agency?

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    Now that the Industry Bill is upstairs in Committee and we shall have the National Enterprise Board put into operation very soon, will he press ahead with the legislation for the Welsh Development Agency so that it can have the powers of the NEB and do the enormous amount of work which is needed to develop industry in Wales?
    Mr. Morris: I am encouraged by those remarks. We shall push ahead speedily with our legislative plans, which will be the chief point of what I am seeking to do in order to ensure that jobs are protected and provided in Wales. I regard it as an essential part of the powers of the Welsh Development Agency that it should be able to act in such a way in parallel with the National Enterprise Board.
    Mr. Wigley: Does the Secretary of State agree that if this agency grows to be a really effective force in the Welsh economy, as we hope it will, it will need the same powers of democratic control as are possessed by those bodies already existing in Wales which are answerable to the Secretary of State but not to the Assembly?
    Mr. Morris: I cannot anticipate the publication of the Government's proposals for the powers of the Assembly, but I am responsible democratically to the people of Wales, and I shall ensure that the body operates, in the first instance, as an agency of mine.
    Mr. Nicholas Edwards: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that there will be widespread support for a properly constituted development agency, but that its success will depend upon the confidence and co-operation of industry, and that will be lacking if the agency is given the job of implementing NEB proposals and "Bennery" in Wales? Has the Secretary of State received representations from Welsh industry urging him not to prejudice the success of the agency, by freeing it from these operations, which would be anathema to many Welsh industries?
    Mr. Morris: I cannot agree with the hon. Gentleman. There has been a substantial welcome for the setting up of the development agency. I concede that there are views about the powers of the NEB
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    being exercised by the agency, and I have taken note of them. I regard this as of fundamental importance. We are about to set up the most important body that Wales has seen for a long time—if not ever—and it is vitally important that it should be able to exercise a whole range of powers comprehensively in order to tackle the real problems of Wales.
    Mr. Wigleyasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the progress of consideration of the establishment of a Welsh Development Agency.
    Mr. John Morris: Discussions on the consultation paper are almost complete. I plan to bring a Bill before the House as early as possible.
    Mr. Wigley: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman give an assurance that in considering this Bill he will give specific consideration to the abilities of the Welsh Development Agency to set up industry in its own right, without having to work through the National Enterprise Board?
    Mr. Morris: I think that the hon. Gentleman has misconceived the consultation paper which I issued about the powers of the Welsh Development Agency. Perhaps he will now await our legislative proposals, which will be published in due course.
    Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: Will my right hon. and learned Friend assure us that the Welsh Development Agency, when established, will have a suitable office and appropriate senior officials in North Wales, as we regard it as extremely important that there should be a reasonable spread of industry throughout the whole of Wales?
    Mr. Morris: For all the operations of the agency, for the powers that it will operate in parallel with similar powers of the National Enterprise Board, and for all the powers that I regard as fundamentally important, it is of the utmost importance that the agency should have a presence in both mid-Wales and North Wales to ensure that it can operate effectively to meet the needs of the whole of Wales. That is what I plan and that is why I propose to set up a comprehensive body to deal with all our problems in this respect.

    Water Charges (Daniel Report)
    Mr. Cledwyn Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Wales when he expects to receive the report of the Daniel Committee on Water Charges.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Edward Rowlands): Within the next few days.
    Mr. Hughes: When they receive this report will my hon. Friend and his right hon. and learned Friend take into account that water charges, based as they are upon the general rate, tend to operate unfairly, especially towards small businesses in Wales? Is my hon. Friend aware that one business man in my constituency has calculated that he is paying £1 per gallon of water? This is expensive, even for Welsh water. Will my hon. Friend therefore press forward with the scheme for the equalisation of water charges throughout the United Kingdom as a way of treating Welsh water consumers more fairly than they have been treated over the past two or three years?
    Mr. Rowlands: I am sure that my right hon. Friend's remarks will be noted. I cannot anticipate what the Daniel Committee will report.
    Sir Raymond Gower: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that few matters have caused such deep concern in Wales in recent months as water and sewerage? When he is considering the report and the remarks of his right hon. Friend, will the hon. Gentleman consider whether the grant from the Government can extend to these big additions made to the rates by the precepts of these bodies now in charge of water and sewerage? This is an important matter, and I hope the hon. Gentleman will consider it seriously.
    Mr. Rowlands: I agree that this is an important matter, and it is regrettable that it was not dealt with under the Water Act 1973.
    Mr. Gwynfor Evans: Will the hon. Gentleman keep in mind that it is the failure to ensure a material return for the Welsh water which flows from Welsh reservoirs to English conurbations which explains in great part the steep rise in the water rate in particular and rates in general?
    Mr. Rowlands: That is one of the matters upon which the Daniel Committee was asked to report. I am sure the hon. Gentleman would not wish me to anticipate the report.
    Mr. Roderick: Is my hon. Friend aware that the recent dissatisfaction in many rural areas about the setting up of the water authority has spread to every area in Wales, because of the charges, which are so patently unfair? Will my hon. Friend consider urgently any solutions which the committee puts forward, and certainly any solutions for changing the method of calculating charges?
    Mr. Rowlands: I am sure that that is one matter which the Daniel Committee will consider and report upon. I am sorry to repeat it, but if one sets up an independent committee it is best to wait for it to report.
    Mr. Wyn Roberts: Can the hon. Gentleman confirm a recent statement by the water authority that the amount of money it expects from water charges in 1975–76 is one-third up on 1974–75, and that the amount of money it expects from the sewerage rate is nearly 100 per cent. up on what it received in 1974–75? This extra money is needed largely because of inflation, but also because of increased loan charges. Can the hon. Gentleman explain to the House why the water authority is paying an interest rate of no less than 17¼ per cent.
    Mr. Rowlands: Many of these detailed questions are the responsibility of the water authority. The House of Commons gave it that responsibility by the Water Act 1973, which the hon. Gentleman supported wholeheartedly during its passage through the House.
    On the question of sewerage charges, the authority inherited a huge backlog of schemes and the hon. Gentleman and others are quick to come to the Dispatch Box and demand that the schemes be included in this and next year's financial programmes.

    Coal and Steel Workers (Housing)
    Mr. Ifor Daviesasked the Secretary of State for Wales what advice he has given to local authorities regarding benefits available from EEC sources for the housing of coal and steel workers.
    Mr. Rowlands: This is a matter which the Government will be considering in conjunction with the coal and steel industries and with the local authority associations.
    Mr. Davies: Is my hon. Friend satisfied that Welsh local authorities are getting their full share of these benefits? Is he further aware that many local authorities are completely unaware of the eighth programme, announced by the European Coal and Steel last year, which provides housing loans for coal and steel workers at as low a rate of interest as 1 per cent?
    Mr. Rowlands: I appreciate the point being made by my hon. Friend. It is one of the matters which I discussed in Brussels and Luxembourg last week. We made it clear to the Commission that in our view local authorities have an important rôle to play in the housing scene in Wales and the Commission accepted this. On the question of the awareness of local authorities of the scheme, I shall be taking this further, now that I have returned from my initial discussions with the Commission.
    Mr. Grist: Why is the Welsh Office only now considering making this advice available? Why has it not done so already?
    Mr. Rowlands: The scheme that has been set up in Europe involves national and regional authorities—but not local authorities—the unions and the coal and steel industries in Europe. There is a different philosophy between the European way of doing things and the British way of doing things in this respect. The rôle of local authorities does not figure prominently in the European scheme. It was with the idea of making an adjustment for the British situation that I had discussions with the Commission last week.
    Mr. Roy Hughes: Is not this a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul? Is not the whole operation merely a recycling of our own money? Does not my hon. Friend feel that his time would be better spent if it were devoted to more fundamental questions, such as the Welsh steel industry, which is suffering badly from Common Market strategy, and the coal
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    industry, which could be halved as a result of action taken by bureaucrats in Brussels and Luxembourg during the next 10 years?
    Mr. Rowlands: I think that I spend my time very usefully in trying to achieve practical results for Wales. We are a member of the Community, and if money is available it is my duty, together with my right hon. and learned Friend, to try to get it for Wales.
    On the question of halving the coal industry, I think that no greater lie was given to this scare than the announcement last week of a £1 million exploration programme into the reserves of the South Wales coalfield. That is a good answer to my hon. Friend's question.

    Rates (Small Businesses)
    Mr. Geraint Howellsasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will take steps to provide assistance to small business people in meeting increased rate demands in 1975.
    Mr. John Morris: The House has already approved proposals under which ratepayers, both domestic and non-domestic, in all areas, will benefit from the unprecedentedly generous rate of grant to be given for 1975–76.
    Mr. Howells: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that many employees will be made redundant and many small businesses will close during the year, due to this year's high rate demand? Will he reconsider his decision and try to help small business people? I was told today that rates in Aberystwyth have risen by 80 per cent. in 12 months, and unless something is done in the foreseeable future many small businesses will be in dire trouble.
    Mr. Morris: I should have thought the hon. Gentleman would be the first to pay tribute to the exceedingly generous rate of Government grant for this year. That grant was introduced unopposed from either side of the House. Although obviously one would have wanted to do more, the proposal that we put forward was not opposed in the Division Lobby. We have provided local authorities with a rate relief on a more generous scale than ever before.
    Sir Raymond Gower: Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman acknowledge that whereas the grant may be larger than ever before, the need is greater than ever? Experienced people in local authorities are saying that they are placed in a fearful position because of continuing and expanding inflation. Will he address himself to the question again?
    Mr. Morris: The hon. Gentleman will remember that the rate support grant, on average, is working at 66 per cent.—the highest ever. The Government have given this aid because of the real need of local authorities. At the same time, the Government have also appealed to local authorities—and I have done so myself—for restraint in their expenditure. We are deeply aware of the problems of local government, and the hon. Gentleman will be aware of the problems of central Government. I would be very surprised if the hon. Gentleman were advocating a wholesale increase of expenditure on this front. I doubt that he would do so, as it would probably be inconsistent with other parts of his philosophy. We have done a great deal, on a far greater scale than ever before.

    Heads of the Valley Road
    Mr. Ioan Evansasked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he proposes any improvement in the Heads of the Valley Road, in view of concern expressed about the safety of the road.
    Mr. Barry Jones: There is a continuing programme of improvements. Current proposals include additional signs; double white lines at various bends and gradients; improved road markings, junction improvements and the provision of street lighting.
    Mr. Evans: I thank my hon. Friend for that encouraging reply. Is he aware that for some time there has been deep anxiety about the safety of this road? Will he look with favour upon any future applications that may come from the local authorities in the Heads of the Valley area? At the same time, I appreciate the action that has already been taken.
    Mr. Jones: We are always ready to receive representations from local authorities in South Wales about this major road. This is part of the industrial regeneration
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    of North Glamorgan and Gwent. This is my Department's positive response to the real fears that many of my hon. Friends have had about this road over the past few years.

    Powys
    Mr. Roderickasked the Secretary of State for Wales if, in view of the special problems faced by the Powys Area Health Authority, he will introduce special measures to help Powys.
    Mr. Barry Jones: My right hon. and learned Friend is conscious of the area's special needs and will take them into account in allocating revenue and capital resources to the authority for the coming financial year. We are also carrying out an operational research study into the area's ambulance service needs and are considering what other help may be given.
    Mr. Roderick: My hon. Friend will be aware of the difficulties experienced by this area. Further, he will know that it is as sparse an area as any in Wales and as large an authority as any other. Will he consider urgently the upgrading of some of the smaller hospitals into community hospitals, in view of the fact that the area has no general district hospital? Will he press upon his colleagues in other Departments the need to consider the question of travelling to visit hospitals, in view of increased costs?
    Mr. Jones: I am aware that Powys is 80 miles long. The Department knows well its special problems. I should like my hon. Friend to know the increased revenue resources for the area health authority. It will be significantly above the average for Wales as a whole. As a major new hospital for the area is not possible, capital for other projects will be weighted materially in its favour. That was one of the matters that my right hon. and learned Friend hinted at when he recently addressed Powys County Council. On the vexed question of travel expenses, all I can say is that we are conscious that the cost of travelling to hospital can be heavy, but in these times of economic stringency I cannot hold out any promise at this stage.
    Mr. D. E. Thomas: In the allocation of area health authority financial resources for next April, will the Minister

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    reconsider the position of the area health authority of Gwynedd? As he told the authority earlier last week, it has been seriously under-funded. Will he consider Gwynedd's position? It has 8 per cent. of the population and a high percentage of elderly people, yet it received only just over 6 per cent. of the total financial allocation for the last financial year?
    Mr. Jones: The Government know of Gwynedd's problem. Already we can say that we have given an additional £1·5 million for the current financial year. We shall ensure in the years ahead that Gwynedd has a larger slice of the cake.
    Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: Will my hon. Friend give an assurance that the proposed new general hospital at Bangor, which is so urgently needed, will be started this year? Does he realise that this is a matter that affects the confidence of the area health authority and all the community health councils in the area?
    Mr. Jones: My right hon. Friend has waged a 10-year campaign to ensure that Bangor has a district general hospital. I am glad to say that our plans are to begin the hospital later this year.

    South Glamorgan
    Mr. Michael Robertsasked the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he is taking to increase employment prospects in the county of South Glamorgan.
    Mr. John Morris: The Government have granted development area status to the county. This will provide great additional financial attractions for manufacturing industry through the increased incentives under the Industry Act 1972 and the regional employment premium, which we have doubled.
    Mr. Roberts: I have on a number of occasions warmly welcomed the inclusion of South Glamorgan in the development area. Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman now consider reconstituting the task force to deal with the provision of employment for redundant workers well in advance of any closure of East Moors?
    Mr. Morris: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his first remark. I assure him that all necessary steps will be taken
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    and that information will be substantially available in good time to meet whatever demands are made for new employment in his county.
    Mr. Ioan Evans: I would not want to press the claims of one county rather than another, but will my right hon. and learned Friend bear in mind that there are also to be considered the needs of the Mid-Glamorgan area? There is a need for diversity in the valleys. Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that when thinking of moving Government Departments from London to Wales there is a tendency to think only in terms of those Departments going to Cardiff? Perhaps we should be a bit more far-reaching in our outlook and think in terms of Government Departments going to other areas. If we developed the Heads of the Valley area, it could develop the whole community.
    Mr. Morris: I think that my hon. Friend has pinpointed the difficulty in which one is always placed. If he examines the programme of advance factories that we have announced in his county and—for those who travel to work there—in the immediate vicinity of his county, he will realise that the area received a substantial share in the past year.

    Comprehensive Education
    Mr. Kinnockasked the Secretary of State for Wales if, on the basis of submissions made to him, he is satisfied with provision made for the implementation of comprehensive secondary education in that part of the constituency of the hon. Member for Bedwellty not already operating such a system; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Barry Jones: We have allocated sufficient resources for the introduction of comprehensive education in the Sirhowy and Western Valley. It is for the local authority to decide when to implement the reorganisation.
    Mr. Kinnock: Does my hon. Friend acknowledge that the local authority is very anxious to implement comprehensive education for sixth-form levels as soon as possible? Has an allocation been made in respect of the Cross Keys College of Further Education, which has become a junior college? Further, approximately how much is involved?
    Mr. Jones: I have met members and representatives of the Gwent LEA. I know of their utmost commitment to the principle and ideal of comprehensive education. The LEA has been told that extensions to the Cross Keys College of Further Education are included in the further education building programme for 1975–76. That may well be worth about £270,000. It will certainly help to facilitate a comprehensive school system in the area.
    Mr. Wyn Roberts: Will the hon. Gentleman say to what extent the parents of the children involved will be consulted before reorganisation takes place?
    Mr. Jones: Every parent elects a local authority councillor.
    Mr. Absey: Now that my hon. Friend has had the opportunity of visiting the constituency of Pontypool and seeing the appalling physical conditions that exist in that area—conditions that present the implementation of comprehensive education, despite the declared desire of all the parents and of the local authority to implement it—will he give the House some idea what priorities may be given to ensure that resources are available to implement comprehensive education throughout my constituency?
    Mr. Jones: We shall announce shortly the Gwent LEA's allocation for school building in 1975–76. The visit that I made with my hon. Friend to Gwent and to his constituency to see the conditions of the schools about which he has shown a deep concern for a long time is still a very clear memory. He will recall, however, that I said that these were times of financial stringency. Nor did I at that time make any promises except to say that the Government would make available the money to enable the Pontypool area to go fully comprehensive and to have schools really fit for all the children in my hon. Friend's constituency.

    Noise Contour Map (Cardiff)
    Mr. Gristasked the Secretary of State for Wales when the noise contour map of Eastern Avenue, Cardiff, will be ready so that claims for compensation may be lodged under the Land Compensation Act 1973.
    Mr. Barry Jones: Provisional noise maps for this scheme are expected to be published this month. This should enable the determination of claims for compensation for injurious affection to proceed.
    Mr. Grist: I welcome that answer. How soon can these claims be met? Will the Minister ensure that individuals who have moved house from the affected areas but still have valid claims are kept informed of their rights?
    Mr. Jones: We are well aware of the interest of householders and those affected by this matter. Outstanding claims are a matter for the district valuer and the owners of the properties concerned. There have been difficulties in obtaining noise insulation agents, because of the refusal of local authorities to accept this work as agents of the Welsh Office, but we have overcome those difficulties by the appointment of the National Building Agency.

    EEC Commission (Minister's Visit)
    Mr. D. E. Thomasasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will make a statement on the visit of the Under-Secretary of State to the EEC Commission.
    Mr. Rowlands: I had valuable discussions in both Brussels and Luxembourg dealing in particular with ECSC housing assistance and the rôle of the Welsh Development Agency in relation to institutions of the European Community.
    Mr. Thomas: Does the Minister accept, from his studies and from ours last week, in Brussels, that the social and regional policy of the Community lags far behind its industrial and competition policy, and that therefore the effects of industrial centralisation on Wales could be disastrous? Is it not therefore right that the Welsh people should be allowed to express their view separately in the coming referendum on membership?
    Mr. Rowlands: One of the most fundamental features of the renegotiation undertaken by this Government is the question of regional aid and the right of the British people to decide for themselves whether they wish to stay in the

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    EEC. The referendum will decide this latter point. Our renegotiations will make considerable progress towards satisfying our needs in regional terms.
    Mr. Tom Ellis: In view of the disquiet in Wales some months ago, which arose from a suspicion that some Government Departments, for perverse reasons, were not fully utilising the opportunities and moneys which existed in the EEC, will the Minister ensure that his right hon. Friends know that the people of Wales expect the Government to seize such opportunities on behalf of Wales with vigour?
    Mr. Rowlands: Yes, of course; we always do.
    Mr. Kinnock: One readily acknowledges that during the renegotiation period all Government Departments are getting what they can for Wales from the Common Market pot, but does the Minister consider that it will be possible to renegotiate the geographical location of Wales so that we can take advantage of a centralised market, if, unfortunately, we have to stay in the EEC?
    Mr. Rowlands: I doubt whether even our powerful renegotiation team can achieve that. The aim of renegotiation is to ensure that the successful regional policies followed by Labour Governments will be able to continue within the EEC if the British people decide that we should stay in.
    Mr. Scott-Hopkins: Does the Minister agree that the Departments of Trade and Industry have not applied for the various grants which could be available for Wales from the EEC? Does he accept that the regional policy agreed at the summit meeting and at recent meetings of the Council of Ministers will be administered to the advantage of Wales in the coming months and years?
    Mr. Rowlands: I am sure that the Secretary of State for Industry would deny some of those remarks. Considerable progress has been made on the regional fund. It is true that, unlike the previous Conservative Government, we have treated renegotiation as a serious defence of the interests of both Britain and Wales.

    Dangerous Manufacturing Processes
    Sir Raymond Gowerasked the Secretary for State for Wales what steps he has taken, following the Flixborough disaster, designed to avoid housing development in the vicinity of factories and other establishments engaged with processes which could prove dangerous; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Rowlands: Welsh Office Circular 162/74, which was issued shortly after the Flixborough disaster, gave advice to local planning authorities on these problems.
    Sir R. Gower: Is the hon. Gentleman aware of the great concern about this in parts of my constituency, in Barry and at Sully, where I live? Without questioning him in detail about a recent case affecting Sully, may I ask for a general assurance that, in all decisions by the Secretary of State, this kind of consideration is borne in mind before any decision is made?
    Mr. Rowlands: The hon. Gentleman refers to a case in his constituency. That decision was made after a public inquiry, at which the objectors made no reference to the presence of factories which might give rise to risks. However, we naturally take into account information received on this point.
    Sir R. Gower: Surely the Minister is aware that the presence of a number of possibly dangerous factories is a matter of general knowledge in the area. Is he now saying that no note was taken of this consideration when the decision was made?
    Mr. Rowlands: When dealing with these planning inquiries, the Secretary of State can deal only with the matters before him and which were brought before the inquiry. At the inquiry, no objection was raised on the grounds to which the hon. Gentleman has referred.

    Unemployment
    Mr. Wyn Robertsasked the Secretary of State for Wales what steps he is taking to reduce unemployment in Wales.
    Mr. John Morris: The Government's policies are designed to protect and create jobs in Wales.
    Mr. Roberts: With unemployment in Wales currently at 4·2 per cent.—higher than at any time last year or the year before—the Secretary of State will, I am sure, appreciate our concern, but is he aware that the biggest discouragement to employment in Wales are the provisions of the Industry Bill, the capital transfer tax and the so-called Employment Protection Bill?
    Mr. Morris: I suspect that the hon. Member is living in an entirely different world. What is wanted in Wales—and what has been lacking, year after year—is new investment. I believe that by our proposals under the Industry Bill and for the National Enterprise Board and the Welsh Development Agency, we shall be able to provide the jobs that are so badly needed in Wales.
    Mr. Roderick: Does my right hon. and learned Friend foresee the agency having a significant effect on unemployment in Wales? If so, what advice will he give Opposition Members when that legislation comes before the House?
    Mr. Morris: I shall be extremely surprised if Members of the Conservative Party go into the Lobby against the Welsh Development Agency. Whatever they may think about particular components of the Bill, because of their own dogmatic approach, they will know in their hearts that this is the only way of solving comprehensively the problems of Wales, and that the great problem today is the unemployment situation that we have inherited—high double figures over a number of years and so little done by the Conservative Party. An illustration is the programme of advance factories that we have brought into Wales, when there were so few in the time of the Conservative Party.
    Mr. Geraint Howells: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that there are vacant nursery factories in Cardinganshire and that it is very difficult to entice industrialists to Ceredigion? We have no railways links with England, and our road communications are bad. Will he assure us that he will spend more in the
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    next five years on road communications into Mid-Wales?
    Mr. Morris: Road communications are important, and I have a personal interest so far as Mid-Wales goes, since I live there. However, although some advance and nursery factories will not be occupied from time to time, it is the whole object of the exercise to ensure that factories are constructed to meet the needs of industrialists, so that we can instantly provide opportunities for industry to expand. The hon. Gentleman will know that our programme of 330,000 square feet of advance factory space last year, compared with a total of 400,000 in three and a half years of the previous Government, is a proud record, and I will continue in that vein.

    Local Government
    Mr. Andersonasked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he considers that it is a probable or desirable consequence of the creation of the Welsh Assembly that there should be a restructuring of Welsh local government on the basis of a unitary system.
    Mr. Rowlands: The Government's proposals for devolution do not involve the reorganisation of local government.
    Mr. Anderson: Is not the startling increase in rates foreseen for this year due in part at least to the duplication arising from the present structure? If we are to avoid over-government in Wales, does not my hon. Friend agree that there is a need for a re-examination now—before loyalties get too fixed—of the structure of Welsh local government?
    Mr. Rowlands: The creation of a Welsh elected assembly is not in any sense meant to be an additional local government tier. Its aim is to bring central Government nearer to the people. At present local government has enough difficulties, without any more thoughts of reorganisation.

  CIVIL SERVICE

    Non-Industrial Staff
    Mr. Speedasked the Minister for the Civil Service what study has been made with a view to introducing incentive schemes into the non-industrial Civil Service.
    The Minister of State, Civil Service Department (Mr. Charles R. Morris): The development of suitable incentives is a continuing element in the management of the non-industrial Civil Service. Information about the incentives offered in the private sector is currently being collected by the Pay Research Unit and I shall consider the matter further when this information is available.
    Mr. Speed: Does the Minister agree that there is need now for a really imaginative widespread scheme which could increase incomes, job satisfaction and efficiency and, perhaps, reduce numbers as well?
    Mr. Morris: The Department is constantly aware of the need to examine incentives. We do not agree entirely that financial incentives are the only means of increasing productivity. As the hon. Gentleman rightly indicated, job satisfaction and other factors are equally important.
    Mr. Rost: Will the Minister give an assurance that there will be no productivity scheme which will provide incentives for VAT inspectors to harass and intimidate small traders?
    Mr. Morris: I can give no such assurance.
    Mr. Gowasked the Minister for the Civil Service what were the numbers of non-industrial civil servants in the United Kingdom on 1st January 1975, 1st January 1974, 1st January 1973 and 1st January 1972, respectively.
    Sir J. Langford-Holtasked the Minister for the Civil Service what have been the annual increases or decreases in each of the last four years in the number of non-industrial civil servants.
    Mr. Charles R. Morris: The numbers in each case were: 1972, 504,000—an increase of 5,000; 1973, 504,000—no change; 1974, 511,000—an increase of 7,000; 1975, 517,000—an increase of 6,000.
    Mr. Gow: Bearing in mind the increase in the number of non-industrial civil servants which that reply reveals, and also the fact that there have been 30,000 transfers out and only 10,000 transfers in during the period, will the Minister say what is the Government's policy in regard
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    to the future numbers of civil servants who will be administering our country?
    Mr. Morris: The Government's policy in regard to the number of civil servants will be decided on the policies and administrative burdens which this Parliament gives the Civil Service to undertake.
    Mr. Gwilym Roberts: Does not my hon. Friend agree that the assemblies to which he has been referring as being set up in Wales and Scotland will require an enormous increase in the Civil Service employment force, under whatever guise it appears, and that that will mean considerable cost for either the people of Scotland and Wales or the people of the United Kingdom in general?
    Mr. Morris: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is one of the factors which the House will take into consideration in its approach to the policy on devolution.

    Devolution
    Mr. David Steelasked the Minister for the Civil Service what steps are being taken by the Civil Service Department to facilitate the implementation of the Government's proposals for devolution to Scotland and Wales.
    Mr. Charles R. Morris: My Department is playing a full part in helping to work out and implement the administrative arrangements to support the measures of devolution to Scotland and Wales which are finally agreed.
    Mr. Steel: Does the Minister accept that if devolution to Scotland is to be successful it will be necessary, at the very least, for the existing Civil Service Departments at St. Andrew's House to be put under the authority of the new Scottish Assembly?
    Mr. Morris: I am mindful of the hon. Gentleman's long-term interest in this subject. I hope that he will accept that it would be premature to reach a firm view of the supporting administrative arrangements which are required for devolution until a clear picture has emerged of the constitutional framework within which the Scottish and Welsh Assemblies will discharge their respective functions.
    Mr. Dalyell: What do the civil servants' unions in the first division of the Civil

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    Service say about being subjected to a Scottish Assembly?
    Mr. Morris: I can assure my hon. Friend that preliminary discussions are currently proceeding with the National Staff Side and the Departmental Whitley Staff Sides on administrative arrangements which may be involved by the devolution policies of the Government in respect of Scotland and Wales.
    Mr. Crawford: Has the Minister given consideration to the implementation of the administrative changes which will be necessary when Scotland gets full self-government and not just devolution?
    Mr. Morris: I have indicated that until such time as the constitutional framework is determined by Parliament it would be premature to determine the administrative framework.
    Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: Does my hon. Friend agree that after the establishment of assemblies in Cardiff and Edinburgh, it is very important that there should continue to be interchangeability as between civil servants in Whitehall, Edinburgh and Cardiff?
    Mr. Morris: That is a very important point. The interests of civil servants will no doubt receive detailed consideration by the House in its consideration of this issue.

    Northern Region
    Mr. Radiceasked the Minister for the Civil Service what further plans he has for the dispersal of Civil Service employment to the Northern Region.
    Mr. Charles R. Morris: The programme announced by the Lord President on 30th July last involves the dispersal of nearly 4,000 posts from London to the Northern Region and the setting up, subject to parliamentary approval, of a child allowance scheme centre in Washington New Town, comprising about 2,000 posts. There are no plans for further dispersal of Civil Service work to the Northern Region at present.
    Mr. Radice: I thank the Minister for that reply, but when is the child allowance scheme office likely to be opened at Washington New Town, in my constituency? Does he not accept that far
    1034
    more tax work could be dispersed to the development areas?
    Mr. Morris: I certainly accept the urgency of dispersing civil servants to the Northern Region, but the individual questions which my hon. Friend has now put are really questions for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary of State for Social Services.
    Mr. Golding: Will the Minister bear in mind that the forced dispersal of civil servants without adequate consultation would go against the spirit of worker participation?
    Mr. Morris: Yes. I certainly give my hon. Friend the assurance that there will be full and adequate consultation, both with the National Staff Side and with the Departmental Staff Sides of the individual Departments concerned.

    "Civil Servants and Change" (Report)
    Mr. John Garrettasked the Minister for the Civil Service what steps he proposes to take to implement the proposals for action by his Department set out in the report "Civil Servants and Change".
    Mr. Charles R. Morris: My officials are already working out the way forward on the measures indicated in the report, including the strengthening of line management, a review of the administration of staff rules, and improved interdepartmental promotion opportunities. The Civil Service Department will also be assisting Departments, as appropriate, in their evaluation of their own domestic follow-up programmes. Work is continuing in areas where results have already been achieved, including flexible working hours, job satisfaction studies, and the office improvement programme.
    Mr. Garrett: Will my hon. Friend pay particular attention to the proposal that artificial barriers to the promotion of technically qualified and specialist staff—which I note his Department now admits to exist—should be removed, and will he report progress to the House?
    Mr. Morris: My hon. Friend has a great knowledge of this matter. I assure him that the Civil Service Department is working to remove the artificial barriers to which he has referred in order

    1035
    to reach the general objective of improved unified grading.
    Mr. Cryer: Will my hon. Friend agree to change the conditions of employment of civil servants so that they can be given paid absence from work to the same extent as Sir Christopher Soames, so that they may take part in the EEC referendum campaign?
    Mr. Morris: I have no responsibility for the conditions under which Sir Christopher Soames is at present employed.

    Accountancy Service
    Mr. Dodsworthasked the Minister for the Civil Service if he has yet appointed a head of profession of the Accountancy Service in the Civil Service; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Charles R. Morris: No appointment has yet been made of a head of the Government Accountancy Service. The recent advertisements did not produce a suitable candidate but it remains the intention to fill the post.
    Mr. Dodsworth: Is the Minister aware that this matter has been hanging fire ever since the Melville-Burney Report in 1973, and that there is a pressing need for revision of the Treasury's rules for accounting, which has been hanging fire since 1873?
    Mr. Morris: I certainly accept the urgency of the points made by the hon. Gentleman. I assure him that discussions are currently proceeding with representatives of the profession concerned to see whether we can identify a possible area in which we can get men of the requisite talents and abilities to fill these posts.

    Scottish Assembly
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Minister for the Civil Service what consultations he has had with the Civil Service unions and the First Minister of the Civil Service on the proposal to subject civil servants in Scotland to a Scottish Assembly.
    Mr. Charles R. Morris: No decisions have yet been reached on the supporting administrative arrangements for devolution to a Scottish Assembly. There have been preliminary discussions between the
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    officials and staff sides at both national and departmental level on the implications of devolution for the Civil Service and the staff associations have been assured that there will be full consultations with them on this.
    Mr. Dalyell: Is there a clear undertaking that at all stages there will be discussions?
    Mr. Morris: I am happy to give my hon. Friend the undertaking that as far as practicable I shall seek to ensure that adequate and full discussion is afforded the staff at each stage of the discussion of the administrative arrangements which will flow from devolution.

  HOUSE OF COMMONS

    Members' Interests
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Lord President of the Council when he intends to publish Her Majesty's Government's proposals on the compulsory declaration of Members' outside financial interests.
    The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Edward Short): The Government's views on the proposals made last month in the report by the Select Committee on Members' Interests (Declaration) will be made known as soon as possible. If at all possible I shall arrange for a debate on this report before Easter.
    Mr. Hamilton: Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that when the Government put forward their proposals they will include proposals to make compulsory the declaration of specific amounts of cash that are paid to Members of Parliament in pursuance of outside interests? Will he further extend the provisions to include Lobby correspondents and also the Chamber of Parliament? Unless that is done the proposal will be meaningless.
    Mr. Short: On the first point, I do not propose to recommend the House to go any further than the Select Committee has proposed. On the second point, the Select Committee is quite free now to consider Lobby journalists or anybody else if it wishes to do so.
    Mr. Tugendhat: Does not the Lord President agree that it would be desirable to discuss the whole question of Members' interests alongside, if not at the same time as, the consideration of the report of the Boyle Committee into Members' remuneration? The two are linked and it would be desirable to consider them as one subject and not completely separately.
    Mr. Short: That is a point of view that had not occurred to me. I shall consider it. Probably the majority of Members will wish the report on Members' interests to be taken before the report of the Boyle Committee is likely to be available. It may be some months before the Boyle Committee reports, because the committee is carrying out a major review.

    Statutory Instruments (Debates)
    Mr. Blakerasked the Lord President of the Council how many statutory instruments came into force in 1974; and of these how many were debated by the House or by Standing Committees.
    Mr. Edward Short: I understand that the number of statutory instruments that came into force during the calendar year 1974 was 2,399. Of these, 51 were debated by Standing Committees and 63 by the House.
    Mr. Blaker: Do not those figures show that we debated a relatively small proportion of the total number of statutory instruments? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the comparison that his right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary made between the situation regarding our own domestic statutory instruments and EEC documents, when the right hon. Gentleman pointed out that in connection with the latter we are in the process in our existing arrangements of encompassing the Government around with a greater degree of parliamentary control than would otherwise be the case?
    Mr. Short: That is a point on the EEC documents. As for the others, we now have two Committees—the Scrutiny Committee and the Merits Committee. I think that the House has found this of great advantage, because the Scrutiny Committee recommends the ones to be
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    discussed and the Merits Committee has enabled many more to be discussed than would otherwise have been found time for in the parliamentary programme.

  DEVOLUTION
  Mr. David Steelasked the Lord President of the Council what representations he has had from official bodies in Scotland concerning the Government's proposals for devolution.
  Mr. Edward Short: The White Paper published in September last year indicated that written representations were received from over 60 organisations in Scotland and that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and his colleagues subsequently held a series of discussions with some of these bodies.
  Mr. Steel: Is the Lord President aware, particularly in the light of his recent visit, of a growing body of opinion in Scotland which argues that the Government should either proceed with the maximum degree of devolution or else not touch the subject, and that the one thing we do not want is the façade of devolution at great public expense?
  Mr. Short: The hon. Gentleman will have read the Government's White Paper of last September. I would hardly say that that was the façade of devolution. We are proposing that there should be executive and legislative devolution to Scotland—legislative devolution in the fields in which Scotland now has its own legislation.
  Mr. Sillars: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that one of the most important written statements was a Labour Party policy statement just before the election which said that as well as legislative devolution there would be substantial executive devolution of powers over trade and industry?
  Mr. Short: That was a very important document. This weekend we have had an equally important document—one of the best documents we have had on this subject—from the Scottish Trades Union Congress.

  EEC MEMBERSHIP (REFERENDUM)
  Mr. Lawsonasked the Lord President of the Council whether he is satisfied with the progress he has made in carrying out his special responsibilities in connection with the forthcoming EEC referendum; and whether he will make a statement.
  Mr. Edward Short: Yes, Sir. The White Paper on the referendum was published on 26th February.
  Mr. Lawson: Is the Lord President aware that in the White Paper to which he has referred it is made clear that it is the Government's present intention that those who are away on holiday when the referendum takes place will be disfranchised? Is he aware also that Mr. Humphrey Taylor, who runs one of our leading polling organisations, has estimated that if the referendum were held in the latter half of June, which is the Government's present intention, over 2 million people would be so disfranchised and that if it were to be held later in the summer, which may well be the case, anything up to 5 million people would be disfranchised?
  Would not that be a scandal? If this unique test of public opinion is to be what it sets out to be, is it not essential that postal or proxy votes should be given to those people who will be away on holiday when the referendum takes place?
  Mr. Short: The Government's aim has been to make the arrangements as fair as possible. We have tried to adhere as far as we can to the normal rules for parliamentary elections, where people who are on holiday do not get a postal vote. However, I have gone into the question of local holidays very carefully. I think that in the third week of June there are only two towns in the country where local holiday weeks will be held. Nevertheless, I agree that there will be some people on holiday.
  Mr. Spriggs: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the many problems confronting citizens of the United Kingdom if they are away on holiday in parts of the Middle East, from which region I had the experience of posting a message home, which arrived 16 days later? In such a
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  case would not the postal vote for those on holiday be ridiculous?
  Mr. Short: No, I do not think that it would be ridiculous. I think that this is a matter which, in the broader context of our parliamentary practice, should be considered by Mr. Speaker's Conference, with a view to a recommendation being made. As for the referendum, all that we are proposing to do is to transplant the machinery and the mechanics of the normal electoral law into the referendum.
  Mr. Lawson: Except the count.
  Mr. Short: Apart from the count, I agree, as to which we are willing to listen to the views of the House. As for the rest, we are proposing to use the normal rules.
  Mr. Hurdasked the Lord President of the Council what consultations he held with groups outside Parliament in preparing the Government's White Paper on the conduct of the referendum on British membership of the EEC.
  Mr. Edward Short: I had discussions with representatives of the Labour, Conservative and Liberal Parties, the European Movement and the National Referendum Campaign Committee.
  Mr. Hurd: Will the Lord President now consult Members of the House about the parliamentary timetable during the proposed referendum campaign? The Government are trying to arrange a national debate throughout the country on a vital issue. Would it not be the final devaluation of Parliament if we were not able to take part in that campaign in our constituencies simply because the Government were denying a referendum recess?
  Mr. Short: The Question is about people outside Parliament who were consulted. I also consulted all parties, including all the minor parties, inside the House, so I consulted many people.
  Mr. Madden: Does the Lord President agree that in trying to make the referendum as much like a General Election as possible there is considerable merit in declaring the result not nationally but constituency by constituency?
  Mr. Short: I think that there is merit both ways. The Government felt that

  1041
  from the point of view of national unity the balance came down on the side of counting the votes nationally. However, there are two points of view about it.
  Mr. Peyton: The right hon. Gentleman certainly consulted the other parties in the House. I gladly bear witness to that fact. However, is he aware that it is quite another matter to claim that he accepted our advice? He did nothing of the kind. I hope that he will afford Members of Parliament every opportunity to take part in the debate in the country. That will have implications for the Government's programme.
  Mr. Short: If the right hon. Gentleman will read the Official Report tomorrow he will see that I said no such thing. All I said was that I consulted. I shall try as far as possible to meet the wishes of all the groups I consulted, but I have not met everybody or heard all the points which they would like to put to me. I have discussed this matter with the right hon. Gentleman and with many other hon. Members. Certainly when one does this it is not possible to meet everybody's wishes.

LONDON UNDERGROUND (ACCIDENT)
Mr. Tugendhat(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the train crash at Moorgate on Friday in which a number of people were killed.
The Minister of Transport (Mr. Frederick Mulley): Yes, Sir. At 08.48 on Friday 28th February a southbound train on the Highbury branch of the Northern Line of London Transport Railways overran the platform at Moorgate at speed and came into heavy collision with the buffer stops at the end of a short extension tunnel into which the first two-and-a-half cars of the six-car train became telescoped and impacted.
I much regret to have to inform the House that it is feared that altogether about 40 passengers and the driver of the train lost their lives. The bodies of 26 passengers have been identified and a further 16 persons are at present listed as missing. A further 76 passengers were admitted to hospital, and of these 42 have been discharged.
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I am sure that the House will wish to join my colleagues in the Government and myself in expressing our sympathy with the relatives of those who lost their lives and best wishes for a speedy recovery to those who were injured.
I would like, too, to pay a tribute, in which I am sure all hon. Members will wish to join, to the work of the emergency services—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."]—the police, the fire brigade, and the ambulance and medical services—and to London Transport's own staff who are carrying out the rescue and recovery operations with skill and devotion under extremely difficult conditions. The recovery of the bodies of the dead is not expected to be completed before Wednesday.
I have ordered a public inquiry into the circumstances of the accident. It will be conducted by the Chief Inspecting Officer of Railways and will be opened as soon as possible.
Mr. Tugendhat: On behalf of all those who live and work in the City of London and Westminster, may I associate myself and my constituents with the condolences which the Minister has expressed to the relatives of those who were killed, and extend our best wishes to those who were injured? May I say, too, how glad we all are to hear the right hon. Gentleman's praise for the emergency services. In this terrible disaster, their achievement is really beyond praise and should be a source of pride to everyone in London.
May I also thank the right hon. Gentleman for his speedy announcement of the establishment of an inquiry. This, I am sure, is the best thing to do. Will he assure the House that this inquiry, as well as looking into the specific circumstances of this tragedy, will also inquire into the servicing procedures in London Transport? Has he any information to give the House about the servicing of the rolling stock involved on this occasion?
Can the right hon. Gentleman also assure us that the inquiry will look into the question of crowding on Underground trains? On London Transport buses there are regulations about the number of people who may stand in a bus at any given time. Does the right hon. Gentleman think that this would be desirable on the Underground? Can he also say how long the inquiry's work is likely to take?

1043
Finally, would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that, despite this great tragedy, London Transport has a safety record which is second to none, and that it would be most unfortunate if this terrible incident should cast doubt in the minds of people about the safety or the London Transport system?
Mr. Mulley: I am very much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for his kind words about the emergency services. I certainly agree with him that they are beyond praise. What one may not fully realise—it is still going on—is the desperate job of clearing up the wreckage of this appalling accident. I am sure that the thoughts of the House go to my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, Central (Mr. Grant), particularly because many of his constituents were involved, and to others whose constituents have been injured and killed in this appalling affair.
We shall set up an inquiry as soon as possible, when all relevant matters will be considered. It will, of course, be open to members of the public to appear and raise these questions. It is unwise and irresponsible to speculate on the causes of the accident, not least because the engine has not yet been recovered from the wreckage. Certainly we shall press ahead as fast as possible. I am sure that the House will want to know the conclusions following any recommendations which may be made.
Mr. Ashley: Would my right hon. Friend agree that the most important requirement now for the families concerned is skilled help and assistance, and skilled legal advice, on questions of compensation? Will my right hon. Friend undertake to confer with his ministerial colleagues to ensure that the families of all concerned receive assistance? Does he agree that this tragedy underlines the need for a disaster unit to be set up by the Government, not to duplicate the work of the rescue teams but to get this kind of instant skilled assistance to the families?
Mr. Mulley: I think my hon. Friend's point about a disaster unit is rather wider than the scope of this Question, but certainly I will draw my right hon. Friend's attention to my hon. Friend's concern in this context.
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I understand that already the Greater London Council and London Transport are giving thought to ensuring proper compensation, but it is too early yet to have a definitive statement. I will certainly see that this matter is pursued.
Mr. Fox: May I associate myself and my right hon. and hon. Friends with the observations of the Minister and of my hon. Friend the Member for the City of London and Westminster, South (Mr. Tugendhat)?
May I press the Minister on two matters? Will he accept that one of the most important aspects is to reassure the travelling public on the safety record of London Transport? It is 21 years since the last serious accident, and I believe that in 100 years there has been no failure of the braking system similar to that which may have caused this sort of accident.
There is one other matter which necessitates a speedy report from this inquiry. I refer to the sort of Press speculation that we are already reading about as to the cause of the accident. Would the right hon. Gentleman confirm that Government financial assistance will be made available if it is required in connection with safety regulations? I appreciate that nobody would advocate that overnight we could fully automate every line in London like the Victoria Line, but there must be a case for looking carefully at the trip wire automatic braking system being installed at every station.
Mr. Mulley: I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the absolutely unparalleled safety record of London Transport. I believe there have been only three accidents involving death to passengers since 1945, and nothing in the history of London Transport on the appalling scale of the present disaster. London Transport can rest on a very fine record.
The hon. Gentleman himself was a little guilty of speculation when he referred to an accident due to a braking fault. We still do not know, and we shall not know for some considerable time, what was the cause of the accident, not least because the wreckage of the front of the train, as I said, may not be recovered until Wednesday.
We shall certainly examine any recommendations or lessons which appear to be

1045
right following the inquiry, but it would be too early to talk about particular automatic or other safety devices. Arising from what the hon. Member said, there was an accident at Tooting about four or five years ago when a train driver was killed in an empty train because he went into a reversing tunnel, but that was a totally different situation from the situation which we are now discussing.
Mrs. Joyce Butler: May I associate myself with the sympathy expressed by the Minister to the relatives of those killed and injured in this terrible tragedy?
May I press my right hon. Friend a little further on the question of compensation? There is already some concern in the Wood Green constituency, from which many of the killed and injured came, about the problems of those who lost relatives who were the main financial support of their families. London Transport has said that it will consider all legitimate claims, but there is likely to be considerable financial hardship beyond that. Has my right hon. Friend any means of launching a disaster fund to provide financial help to supplement whatever London Transport can do?
Mr. Mulley: I am obliged to my hon. Friend. We shall consider what she has said. I think that some discussion has already taken place about the possibility of a disaster fund. London Transport has undertaken to pay compensation on all legitimate claims, and I am not sure how much further one can go beyond that. As I say, it is too early yet to get down to precise details, but I shall certainly bear in mind what my hon. Friend has said.
Mr. Rossi: I, too, associate myself with the Minister's expressions of sympathy to the victims of this terrible accident and to the relatives of those who lost their lives, and I add my thanks to the emergency services, especially since between a quarter and a fifth of the named victims come from my constituency.
I urge the Minister to bear in mind that we want the matter of compensation to be dealt with speedily and not to be bogged down in legalistic argument on questions of negligence. Further, while the inquiry is in progress, will the Minister ensure that particular regard is had to a fact which I have been pressing on London Transport for some time; namely,
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that the equipment on the Northern Line is now some 40 years old, and the fiscal policies of the Greater London Council have not been conducive towards replacement of that stock?
Mr. Mulley: I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not suggesting that that was possibly a cause of the accident.
Mr. Rossi: No.
Mr. Mulley: I think that the House would be wise to await the inquiry, not least because some important evidence which will have to be examined has not yet been extracted from the tunnel. On the question of compensation, I appreciate the concern on both sides of the House that this matter should be dealt with generously and as humanely and speedily as possible. While the prime responsibility lies with the Greater London Council and London Transport, we shall certainly do all we can to try to achieve those objectives.
Mr. Bagier: As one who spent many years on British Rail before becoming a Member of the House, and whose job it was on occasion to find out all the facts regarding faults, derailments and so on, I should like my right hon. Friend's assurance that the inquiry will be far-reaching and will ascertain all the facts that it is possible to find or that any hon. Member could wish to have found. Further, will my right hon. Friend agree that some of the unskilled speculation about the causes of the crash does nothing but harm? Moreover, was it not rather distressing to see the young guard on the train being interviewed on television at a time when, quite frankly, that ought not to have been allowed, and it was dangerous and undesirable in its possible effect on any future inquiry?
Mr. Mulley: I am sure that there is great support for what my hon. Friend says, but neither my right hon. Friends nor I have any control over the media in these matters. All I could do was what I did, which was to refuse to participate in the exercise.
Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg: Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that the House wishes him to get the inquiry completed as soon as possible, because a lot of reassurance is needed, and, further, that a statement such as that attributed to

1047
London Transport—that the rolling stock, while being unreliable, was not unsafe—is the sort of statement which, if genuinely made by London Transport, is not at all helpful and London Transport ought to be told not to make it?
Mr. Mulley: I think that we all agree that in these desperately difficult circumstances it would have been wiser if many people had said less than they did. I shall certainly draw the hon. Gentleman's observation to the attention of those concerned. As to the timing of the inquiry, I think that the public hearing should be relatively short, but I am sure that the House will want it to be thorough, and it may well involve considerable testing of equipment, brakes and the rest. I am sure that the House will want a thorough job done as well as one done as speedily as possible.

GLASGOW REFUSE DISPOSAL (DRIVERS' DISPUTE)
The Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Michael Foot): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I shall make a statement on the strike by the drivers of Glasgow Corporation refuse vehicles.
The drivers have been on strike since 13th January, seeking a further pay increase. The strike is unofficial. It has resulted in the accumulation of large amounts of uncollected refuse in the City.
The wages of local authority drivers throughout Great Britain are negotiated in the National Joint Council for local authorities' services. Agreement on a new annual wage settlement was reached in the National Joint Council on 7th November, only four months ago, giving the drivers an increase of £7·78—including consolidation of threshold payments. That agreement envisaged that there would be further discussions on the unions' claim for a review of the grading structure. Last Thursday, an offer was made to increase the pay of the local authority grades, which include the Glasgow drivers. This was rejected. I understand that the local authority employers are considering asking the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service for its assistance in this national dispute and also the local disputes related to it.
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The action is being taken against a nationally negotiated agreement. To treat separately with these drivers would threaten the agreed national negotiating procedures for all local authority workers, leading inevitably to leap-frogging claims and fragmented bargaining.
In these circumstances, I hope that the House will join with me, and with the Glasgow Corporation, in urging the drivers to return to normal working.
Mr. Teddy Taylor: We are grateful for the small mercy that, after a seven-weeks strike which has resulted in appalling living conditions in some parts of Glasgow and the accumulation of 50,000 tons of refuse and a major health hazard, the Minister has at least made a statement. But will the right hon. Gentleman now answer four detailed questions?
First, as the concern now is primarily about the health hazard, will the Secretary of State invite his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland to make a statement about what plans can be put in hand to help remove from Glasgow the 50,000 tons of rubbish? Second, as this strike is entirely unofficial, may we know whether the Transport and General Workers' Union, which has always supported the social contract, has condemned the strike and has urged the men to return to work?
Third, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Glasgow Corporation has said that, if it conceded this claim, it could add £10 million to its rates and, more important, open the floodgates to a further claim by 20,000 other employees of the local authority?
Fourth, will the right hon. Gentleman strongly urge the Secretary of State for Scotland to make an immediate statement on steps which can be taken, in consultation with Glasgow Corporation, to remove the rubbish, which is becoming a serious health hazard? Is it not utterly outrageous that, after seven weeks of strike, a request for an official visit from even a junior Minister to assess the situation for himself has been rejected, and this at a time when we had half the Cabinet at the strike-bound Glasgow Airport at the weekend?
Mr. Foot: I shall take, first, the hon. Gentleman's questions about the health

1049
hazard. The Secretary of State for Scotland has kept the closest watch on all the reports about health hazards. We could not agree with the terms in which the hon. Gentleman stated the matter, but, if action has to be taken about that, the Secretary of State for Scotland will take it, and I assume that the hon. Gentleman will therefore address to my right hon. Friend any further questions he may have on that subject.
I come to the hon. Gentleman's second question. The strike is unofficial, and I am sure that the Transport and General Workers' Union, which has from the beginning stated that the strike is unofficial, is doing everything in its power to try to bring the dispute to an end. The union wishes to see the end of it, just as the Government and Glasgow Corporation wish to see the end of it, and I am sure that the whole House should give support to Glasgow Corporation in seeking an end to the dispute as speedily as possible.
The figure which the hon. Gentleman gave has been mentioned by the Lord Provost. It is undoubtedly true that, if the claim were to be met in full, the figure would be very large, not only for Glasgow but for the whole country. The main fact here is that the whole matter must be settled in a national agreement, and if there were any attempt to settle it locally or by a specialised agreement applied to a particular area it could lead to all the difficulties which I described in my statement.
Mr. Dalyell: However uncomfortable it may be for the city of Glasgow, will my right hon. Friend lose no opportunity to point out that if he were to step into this kind of dispute, the dispute in Glasgow and that of the signalmen in London and every other dispute would end up with beer and sandwiches at Downing Street?
Mr. Foot: I am not sure about the beer and sandwiches—I have not been offered them recently—but I think that what my hon. Friend suggests is correct. It would be quite wrong to seek a settlement of this dispute by separate negotiations or in a separate way, and, as I tried to indicate as strongly as possible, we support the attitude which Glasgow Corporation has taken in the matter.
Mr. Crawford: Is the Secretary of State aware that many people in Scotland feel
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that if the same amount of rubbish were piling up in Trafalgar Square as is piling up in Glasgow streets the whole mess would have been cleared up a lot sooner? Will he reconsider his earlier point about separate representations? Industrial problems in Scotland should be settled in Scotland, not remotely, in London.
Mr. Foot: Of course we are expecting this matter to be settled in Scotland, but the hon. Gentleman is quite wrong in his supposition that similar events have not occurred elsewhere. This is not only a Scottish strike. A similar strike for a similar claim is now taking place in Liverpool—and that partly disproves the hon. Member's claim. Some years ago there was comparable difficulty in London. The hon. Gentleman, like the rest of the House, must apply his mind to how we may get a solution. It would be no good having a solution for Glasgow if that disrupted the situation throughout the rest of the country. That would be no good for Glasgow or for anybody else.
Mr. Steen: While the situation in Glasgow is grim, the situation in Liverpool is deplorable. Will the Secretary of State take urgent action to enable local authorities to repay to ratepayers the money paid through the rates for the clearance of refuse when refuse is not cleared up after, say, four weeks?
Mr. Foot: I do not think that is a solution to the problem. The solution, as I have suggested, is that all of us in this House should seek to secure respect for the national agreement which was approved by all the trade unions concerned in the negotiations. The more that hon. Members representing seats in Glasgow, Liverpool or anywhere else join with me in that appeal, the sooner we shall deal with these troubles.
Dr. M. S. Miller: Will my right hon. Friend reassure the House that, while there is grave inconvenience caused to the citizens of Glasgow, at least the question of the health hazard is being kept under close scrutiny and that the medical authorities have stated at this moment that there is no health hazard?
Mr. Foot: Of course I can give my hon. Friend the assurance he seeks.
Mr. Prior: We are all rather amazed that every week the Secretary of State

1051
has come to the House and made a statement such as the one he has just made. We understood that the social contract and the abolition of the Industrial Relations Act would make all sweet and reasonable in industry again. Would he not be serving the interests of the country better if, instead of making this sort of statement, he supported the statements made by his right hon. Friends the Home Secretary and the Secretary of State for Education, and perhaps began to tell the country some of the truths they have been telling instead of the pettiness with which he treats the House.
Mr. Foot: The right hon. Gentleman is wrong on every count, and I suppose that the House will not be surprised about that. I went to Glasgow at the weekend and I made a statement about the social contract in the discussions which we had with the Scottish Trades Union Congress. We held lengthy discussions on these matters. We discussed the social contract among other matters. In my speech on Saturday afternoon I referred in detail to the social contract and urged that everyone should abide by its guidelines as laid down by the TUC. I did it then just as I have done it in the House again today. What I said on Saturday, therefore, is perfectly consistent with what I said this afternoon.
Mr. Canavan: Will my right hon. Friend assure both the official and the unofficial Opposition that we on the Labour side are just as concerned as they are, if not more so, about the accumulation of rubbish in the streets of Glasgow? Is he aware that we also deplore the rubbish that is emanating from the mouths of some members of the Opposition, particularly from the hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. Crawford), who would be better employed supporting my right hon. Friend's statement and trying to bring this serious situation to an end?
Mr. Foot: I am grateful for my hon. Friends promise of support. As for his reference to opposition from the other side of the House, we have scarcely noticed that opposition.
Mr. Monro: The Secretary of State is intolerably complacent about this whole matter. Just how many more weeks is he
1052
prepared to let this strike go on before he takes action? Will he delay over this strike in the same way that he has delayed over the weekly railway strike? Will he send one of his Ministers to Glasgow to report back about what action should be taken?
Mr. Foot: Of course the Government have the most complete and detailed reports about the situation in Glasgow, Liverpool and in the other parts of the country which might be affected. It is quite irresponsible for the hon. Gentleman to suggest that the Government do not have that kind of information. When he suggests, as he apparently did, that I should have intervened in the signalmen's strike, I am compelled to ask Conservative Members to consider the matter carefully. Is it the policy of the Opposition that the Government should intervene in a strike of that nature, because if it is, they are recommending a general recipe for industrial chaos in Britain.
Mr. Teddy Taylor rose—
Mr. Speaker: Does the hon. Member wish to proceed with his application under Standing Order No. 9?
Mr. Teddy Taylor: I wish first, Mr. Speaker, to ask a brief question of the Secretary of State. It involves two specific points. First, in view of the crisis in Glasgow, will the Secretary of State send a Minister either from his Department or from the Scottish Office to study the situation? Secondly, will he tell the people of Glasgow whether there are any contingency plans to deal with the accumulation of rubbish should a serious health hazard arise?
Mr. Foot: I replied to the hon. Member on these two aspects at the beginning of supplementary questions on the statement. It is highly irresponsible for the hon. Member to suggest that the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Scottish Office are not in the closest touch with the situation. They have been in the closest touch all the time, and for the hon. Gentleman to suggest anything different is merely to attempt to mislead the people of Glasgow. I do not imagine for a moment that he will succeed.
Mr. Teddy Taylor: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House,

1053
under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration: namely,
"the need to remove 50,000 tons of rubbish which has accumulated in Glasgow in consequence of a dispute in Glasgow's cleansing department."
The matter is specific because there has been a seven-week strike in the city's cleansing department and an appalling accumulation of rubbish. Anyone with normal vision or a normal sense of smell will be aware that this matter is specific.
It is also an important matter because over the weekend the professor of community medicine of Glasgow University expressed the view that there was a serious health hazard, and there was a statement this morning from the sanitation department saying that it was expecting a large number of rats to appear in those areas where the refuse is concentrated.
This matter demands urgent attention because, in spite of the statement by the Secretary of State for Employment and Written Answers from the Secretary of State for Scotland, we have not the slightest idea whether there are any contingency plans to deal with this serious and deteriorating situation. In those circumstances I believe that I should be failing the people of Glasgow if I did not submit this application to you.
Mr. Speaker: I have listened carefully to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) in his application for a debate under Standing Order No. 9 to discuss a specific and important matter that he thinks should have urgent consideration, namely,
"the need to remove 50,000 tons of rubbish which has accumulated in Glasgow in consequence of a dispute in Glasgow's cleansing department".
I have listened carefully to the hon. Member and to the exchanges which have taken place in the House today. I have to decide whether the situation would be alleviated by a debate in the House today or tomorrow. In my view the answer is "No".

QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE
Mrs. Dunwoody: May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, to consider words that have just appeared in a newspaper called the Travel Trade Gazette, which I feel you may be inclined to rule, when you have heard the facts, constitute a prima facie breach of privilege.
On the front page there is a headline saying:
"Commons attack angers ABTA".
There is then a banner headline reading
"MP, Walsh speculation".
Underneath there is a paragraph saying:
"There was speculation amongst the trade over Mrs. Dunwoody's motives for attacking ABTA. Several ABTA leaders cited her friendship with Mr. Dennis Walsh the former ABTA chairman who was forced to stand down from office."
In an opinion entitled
"Dunwoody Day"
there is a long passage of which I complain strongly, saying:
"Now comes the news that ABTA leaders are suspicious of the motives of a former Labour junior minister in a surprise attack in the House of Commons on the association.
It is being openly suggested that Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody was 'primed' well in advance of her speech by outside influences.
Cynics point to her close friendship with former ABTA chairman Dennis Walsh, now leading the other trade associations, the Institute of Travel Agents.
Mutterings of vested interests and power-politics are being bandied about. Nothing, of course, can be conclusively proved. But in situations such as this there is usually no smoke without fire.
The question being asked is: What is the real significance of the Dunwoody broadside?
Is she speaking for the holidaymaker at large when she claims they could eventually need protection from tour operator collapse by the intervention of a national government?
Or is she being used as a powerful pawn in a protracted battle of travel trade chess aimed at dethroning the present ABTA leadership?"
Apart from the fact that no one who knows me thinks of me as anyone's pawn, or cannot have been listening, I complain bitterly about the words in the article.
Mr. Speaker: As the hon. Lady is relying on a statement in a newspaper, will she bring the paper to the Table?
Copy of newspaper handed in.
Mr. Speaker: I shall consider the matter, and rule upon it tomorrow.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  FINANCE BILL
  Not amended (in the Committee) and as amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
  4.5 p.m.
  Sir Geoffrey Howe: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will remember that on Thursday a number of points of order were raised about the absence of facilities for hon. Members on both sides of the House to consider amendments that had then been tabled or were being tabled. You will also remember that the Leader of the House repeated a number of times his undertaking that all the material necessary for Members to consider the legislation would be made available in time. He repeated that time and time again in the hearing of many hon. Members.
  On Friday we had occasion to raise the matter yet again. I did so, as reported at column 989 of Fridays Official Report, because by then it was clear that there was no print available to hon. Members of the amendments that had been tabled throughout Thursday, up until the close of play on Thursday. Moreover, no print has since been made available of amendments tabled on Friday, by the Government or Opposition side, to Part III. All that hon. Members have today is an Order Paper containing amendments to Parts I, II and IV. There does not exist a marshalled list, or any comprehensive list, of those tabled to Part III.
  This is a serious state of affairs. It makes it impossible for proper consultation on that part of the Bill to take place.
  The Government Deputy Chief Whip was also drawn into the matter, to his misfortune, on Friday. To try to rescue something from the wreck, he told the House that he would ensure that every hon. Member who had served on the Standing Committee would be supplied with at least a copy of the Xeroxed amendments, out of order and unmarshalled, that were available to about 30 hon. Members on Friday. I understand that that undertaking has not been fulfilled either. Although efforts were no
  1056
  doubt made by the Government, some of my hon. Friends did not receive even that inadequate summary of the amendments on Friday, Saturday or Monday, either at their home address or at their constituency address.
  This is an intolerable state of affairs. I wish to find out from the Leader of the House, by raising this point of order, what excuses there are for this state of affairs and what remedy he proposes. We know that the printing was not taking place on Thursday. That is not sufficient excuse. Either the time table for the production of the amendments and for the consideration of the Bill was impossibly tight, or there may be some other reason for the failure to have these documents printed. The situation suggests that the social contract, of which we are told the capital transfer tax is an important part, is failing even to achieve its objective of securing continued activity by the Government's printers.
  The House is entitled not only to a remedy but to an apology from the Leader of the House.
  The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Edward Short): At your suggestion, Mr. Speaker, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer put down a business motion for today. If the House is prepared to pass that motion, the undertaking I gave on Thursday will have been carried out.
  Mr. Jeremy Thorpe: Further to that point of order. Following the exchanges on Friday, the situation is even worse. My right hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) and I went to the Government Chief Whip's office on Friday to find out where we could go on Saturday to obtain the amendments. It would not be fair to say that we were barred entry, because every door was wide open, but there was no one present. They had all departed, and there was not even a sign to say that they had gone for a tea break. Constant attempts on Friday and Saturday to find out were without avail. Now the final selection is not received until 1.45 p.m., which is without precedent.
  Mr. Robin Maxwell-Hyslop: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Could you clarify the rule on the starring of

  1057
  amendments? I am aware that you generously said that today you would suspend the normal practice of not calling starred amendments, but the rule needs clarification. I tabled three amendments which appear starred on today's Notice Paper—Nos. 326, 327 and 328. They appeared on the photostat copy of the list of amendments which the Vote Office released on Friday. Therefore, I was surprised to find that on today's list they appear starred.
  As I understand the rule, if amendments have already been released by the Vote Office, they should not appear starred on a subsequent list on a subsequent day. I also understand that this rule does not depend on whether the Notice Paper is printed, Roneoed, typed or copied by photostat, or whatever method is used for its presentation.
  Clarification is needed, because on another occasion the Chair might not waive the rule whereby starred amendments are not normally selected, and as a result of amendments being starred the second time they appear on a Notice Paper released by the Vote Office their selection by the Chair might be prejudiced. I should be grateful, Mr. Speaker, if you would say whether I am correct in believing that the form of reproduction of the Notice Paper should not be material to whether an amendment is starred on a subsequent Notice Paper.
  Mr. Speaker: I shall go into the point the hon. Gentleman has made. I have completely disregarded whether or not amendments are starred today. I have selected amendments on merit, irrespective of whether or not they are starred.
  The Minister of State, Civil Service Department (Mr. Charles R. Morris): As anxiety has understandably been expressed about printing, and in so far as printing by Her Majesty's Stationery Office falls within the ambit of my ministerial responsibilities, it might be in order for me to make a statement on the printting situation as it has affected the Stationery Office over the weekend.
  It may be for the benefit of the House if I explain that 720 amendments have been tabled. The Notice Paper this morning contains 32 pages of marshalled amendments covering Clauses 1–18 and Schedules 1–3. Because of the complexity
  1058
  of the amendments and the time taken to select the relevant amendments for the marshalled list, the Stationery Office was not able to marshal more than 32 pages.
  Five hundred sets of the first 60 pages of the unmarshalled amendments were delivered to the House this morning. Copies of the remaining amendments, covering a further 60 pages, are now available in the Vote Office.
  Because of the complexity of the operation and the efforts devoted to producing a marshalled list of amendments for today's business, together with the volume of the amendments and the time-phasing of the tabling of amendments, this situation has produced a position where Her Majesty's Stationery Office was left with a task over the weekend beyond its capacity. I regret that copies of the final 60 pages were not available for the consideration of hon. Members this morning.
  Mr. John Peyton: I think that the whole House will be grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his gallant attempt to take the blame in this difficult situation. No blame attaches to him. The trouble is that we are dealing with an intolerably complex operation and the Government simply have not been able to make arrangements in time for the House to consider this matter in an orderly fashion.
  I take it—the Leader of the House can confirm or deny—that the situation that we have now reached means that it will be quite impossible for any of Part III to be taken until Thursday.
  Mr. Edward Short indicated dissent.
  Mr. Peyton: In that case the right hon. Gentleman is saying that the amendments to this vital part of the Bill will not be available to the House in time, which is certainly in conformity with the very bad habit that the right hon. Gentleman is now forcing on the House.
  I put it to the Government once again that, in fairness to themselves and to Parliament, they should agree to withdraw the capital transfer tax and put it to a Select Committee so that it may be given reasonably mature consideration and not thrust down the throats of hon. Members in this unconsidered, inconsiderate, discourteous fashion. That would enable the right hon. Gentleman at least to salvage for himself and his

  1059
  Department some shreds of a reputation for doing things in a proper and civilised fashion.
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Denis Healey): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I wonder whether the views that the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) has just expressed to the House would have been different had he heard the statement by his right hon. and learned Friend the Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer on the radio this morning, when he said that the aim of the Opposition in this operation was to stop this tax from reaching the statute book—in other words, there was no question of giving it mature consideration at any stage. Would his attitude have been somewhat different if he had known that, after making a fuss about the non-availability of amendments on Thursday, the Opposition tabled 100 pages of new amendments, nearly half of which were tabled between 10 o'clock at night and 1.45 in the morning?
  Sir Geoffrey Howe: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The right hon. Gentleman must know perfectly well that if the Government bring this new tax from Committee to Report stage with very few days available for us to consider it, a substantial volume of amendments is bound to be tabled by the Opposition even in relation to the Government Amendments that we have actually seen. He should know perfectly plainly that when I said that we were determined to secure sufficient time for consideration of this tax, and, indeed, determined so far as we could to use all the legitimate parliamentary means available to us to prevent its reaching the statute book, that was a perfectly proper thing to say.
  It is a perfectly proper thing to say because it is absolutely lunatic, even by the conventions adopted by this Government, to suggest that proper consideration can be given to amendments of this fundamental importance within 24, 48 or even 72 hours of receiving them—or even within a week. This legislation is so complex that it requires consideration of a kind that can be given to it only if it is remitted to a Select Committee for proper consideration.
  Mr. Speaker: So far as these matters are matters for the Chair, I promised that I would do my best for hon. Members. In fact, the Vote Office put in a great deal of very hard work to try to facilitate production of the amendments. However, we are now in the field of argument, and that may arise on the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. We are clearly getting into the field of debate and there is about to be a debate on the motion that the Bill should be taken in the order proposed.
  Mr. J. Grimond: On a different point of order, Mr. Speaker. Surely the House should be protected against the suggestion that there is something objectionable to putting down amendments to the Finance Bill.
  4.15 p.m.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. That is not a point of order; it is comment.
  Mr. Grimond: On a point of order—
  Mr. Speaker: Is it a point of order for the Chair?
  Mr. Grimond: Yes, Mr. Speaker. When it was agreed that half the Finance Bill should be sent to Standing Committee, it was said that hon. Members would have a proper chance to consider it on Report if they had not been members of the Standing Committee. It is not good enough, therefore, to say that a substantial effort should be made to supply copies of amendments to those hon. Members who were members of the Standing Committee. There are other hon. Members who require them.
  Mr. Speaker: That is not a matter for the Chair.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Speaker: I much prefer the House to get on.
  Mr. Nigel Lawson: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker—
  Mr. Speaker: Is it the same point of order?
  Mr. Lawson: It is a different point of order. You will be aware that on Thursday the Leader of the House said:
  "I have given more time to the Finance Bill than"—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. This is the same point of order. It is a matter of the time allowed. That is not a matter for the Chair.
  Mr. Lawson rose—
  Mr. Speaker: It is not a point of Order.
  Mr. Lawson: The right hon. Gentleman said:
  "I have given more time to the Finance Bill than has been given to any Finance Bill since 1909."—[Official Report, 27th February 1975; Vol. 887, c. 709.]
  Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member must resume his seat. That is not a matter for the Chair. Those are comments. Those are matters germane to a debate or criticism, but they are nothing to do with the Chair.
  Mr. Lawson rose—
  Mr. Speaker: I will not hear the hon. Member any more.
  Mr. William Clark: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I have looked at your provisional selection of amendments, which is displayed in the "No" Lobby. The motion to be moved by the Chancellor of the Exchequer states:
  "That the Finance Bill, as amended, be considered in the following order, namely, new Clauses not relating to capital transfer tax or estate duty, Amendments relating to Clauses 1 to 18 …".
  Your selection of amendments, Mr. Speaker, is headed
  "To end of Clause 18".
  Do I take it from that that all the new clauses are to be debated? The selection of amendments has been made, but all that we are told is that the new clauses will be taken before consideration of the amendments starts.
  Mr. Speaker: This is a very simple one: none of the new clauses has been selected. To rub it in—they are all out of order.
  Mr. David Mitchell: This is a different point of order, Mr.
  1062
  Speaker. You have been kind enough to indicate your selection up to the end of Clause 18. There are amendments which have not been tabled to Clause 18 on the assumption that they did not need to be tabled until today because the House was originally programmed to debate new clauses today. May I have your assurance that such amendments, when they appear on the Notice Paper, will be considered by you as though they were not starred?
  Mr. Speaker: I have made it perfectly clear that in this situation I will consider manuscript amendments if need be.
  Mr. Peter Rees: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. During the watches of the night in Committee the Financial Secretary in particular, and the Chief Secretary on occasions, was prone to say that he would take a particular problem away and consider it, without, of course, giving any undertaking about what he would bring back on Report. I have always understood—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Will the hon. and learned Gentleman say how this affects the Chair?
  Mr. Peter Rees: I am coming to the main point in a moment but it is necessary to develop this. I have always understood it to be the convention of the Committee, the House or the Government in that situation for the Ministers concerned to write to the hon. Member who moved the amendment—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. This is an abuse of a point of order. Mr. Barnett.
  The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Joel Barnett)rose—
  Mr. Peter Rees rose—
  Mr. Ian Gow: May I raise a completely different point of order, Mr. Speaker? In your discretion you permitted the Minister of State to the Civil Service Department to make a statement a few moments ago. [Interruption.] Is it not the convention of the House that when a Minister makes a statement that statement should be subject to questioning by hon. Members?
  Mr. Speaker: No. This is entirely a matter for the Chair.
  Mr. Nicholas Ridley: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. [Interruption.] I would like you to consider the point that Clause 39 of the Bill is outside the Financial Resolutions and should not be included in it and, further, that it would be quite improper for the House to consider or debate it in any circumstances. The Financial Resolutions say that a capital transfer tax may be introduced but Clause 39 is not about a tax on capital; it is about a tax on the income arising from capital. It says—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. It is not down for debate today. I am trying to get on with today's business. The hon. Member can make his point to me later. If I get a suspicion that attempts are wrongly being made to delay the business on this Bill it may affect my mind on other decisions I may have to take. If the hon. Member has a point about Clause 39 he can perfectly well put it to me later, if he will. Let us get on with this other business today.
  Mr. Ridley: I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker. [Interruption.] I would like to give you notice that I will seek to argue at a later stage that Clause 39 is outwith the Financial Resolutions and should not be included in the Bill.
  Mr. Joel Barnett rose—
  Mr. Peyton: There are two points of order I wish to raise with you, Mr. Speaker. The first is that in this difficult situation when my right hon. and hon. Friends are trying to raise points of great importance to Parliament, there is a stream of interruptions from what I can only call the usual quarters which makes it difficult for the Opposition to put a reasonable point of view.
  The second point of order concerns the remark you have just made, that if you get a suspicion that the Opposition are trying to hold up business this would affect your mind. The point is that we are not trying to hold up business in any way. We are merely trying to point out the difficulties which the House is in as a result of having this stuff thrust at it at the last minute with the minimum of opportunity to consult all the outside interests or to represent our constituents adequately.
  Mr. Speaker: I certainly have not attempted to prevent the right hon. Gentleman saying that. What I am not prepared to do is to have the same thing said a hundred times.
  Mr. Edward Short: May I apologise to the hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson). In fairness to him, I believe he was trying to correct something I said the other day. I do not wish to mislead the House. I said that this was the longest time given to the Finance Bill since 1909. I have done some more researches this weekend and I have discovered that in 1965 five days plus a little time for Third Reading were given. If we add to the time that I have given the 163 hours spent in Committee it amounts to one of the longest periods ever given in this century to a Finance Bill.
  Mr. Speaker: That is not a matter of order. However long the Finance Bill has taken in the past, it is not a matter for me.
  Mr. Joel Barnett: I beg to move,
  That the Finance Bill, as amended, be considered in the following order, namely, new clauses not relating to capital transfer tax or estate duty, amendments relating to Clauses 1 to 18 and 50 to 56 and to Schedules 1 to 3 and 12, new clauses relating to capital transfer tax or estate duty, amendments relating to Clauses 19 to 49, new schedules, and amendments relating to Schedules 4 to 11.
  It may surprise you, Mr. Speaker, to be told that this motion has been tabled to help the House. It was done in co-operation with some hon. Members on the Opposition benches to make it possible to discuss the non-capital-transfer-tax clauses before we get to the capital-transfer-tax parts of the Bill.
  It seems that, given the time we have debated the non-capital-transfer-tax clauses in Committee, both here and upstairs, it should be a comparatively simple matter to debate this part of the Bill pretty quickly, given the customary co-operation and good will we have learned to expect from the Opposition. I therefore think there will be ample time within the remainder of the five days allotted to Report to debate the Bill. It might be worth saying that if it is the intention of the House and of the Opposition to have a serious examination of the

  1065
  capital transfer tax, there will be, by the use of this motion, ample time so to do.
  Sir G. Howe: Clearly it would be churlish of me not to express gratitude to the Chief Secretary for the motion which he has moved. Equally, I make it perfectly plain that as a means of concentrating proper or sufficient parliamentary consideration on the capital transfer tax it is simply not good enough. What the hon. Member is suggesting is a partial solution to the problem we have already spent some time discussing today, namely the non-availability of the amendments in any printed or digestible form.
  This motion cannot be an answer to the problem which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has created for the House and the country—the problem of presenting a tax half-digested, ill-considered, ill-explained, far too late for it properly to be considered before it is placed on the statute book. It is to that to which I address my remarks. Of course this motion will enable us to consider the various important points that still arise on Parts I, II and IV of the Bill. What is not clear at this stage is when the Government intend or expect us to get on to Part III of the Bill and the capital transfer tax.
  We were told several times in the statement by the Minister of State to the Civil Service Department that it had been quite impossible for the Stationery Office even to marshal and print the various amendments, Government and Opposition, within a weekend of working because of the complexity and number. That is the premise from which we have started. If it has taken that long and has caused that much difficulty even to marshal and print these amendments, how much more impossible will it be for us to consider and debate them? It will be quite impossible.
  The Leader of the House said that he hoped to have the Order Paper in a sufficient condition for us to consider these matters in due course. What does he mean by "in a sufficient condition" and "in due course"? He reiterated his undertaking given to the House on Thursday that these matters would be available in sufficient time to be considered. If I understand him correctly, all amendments so far tabled are now apparently available. I hope that that will be confirmed by the Chief Secretary. Even if
  1066
  they are available, those now on the Notice Paper cannot include any amendments tabled by any hon. Member to those Government amendments that were to be tabled on Friday which we shall presumably be seeing for the first time this afternoon.
  Even if they are available to that extent, it is impossible for any legislative assembly which has any pretence to consider matters seriously and with deliberation sensibly to consider the Bill between now and the end of the week. We shall certainly aim to make reasonable progress on Parts I, II and IV, but we want to know what the Lord President has in mind when he says that the amendments will be available for us to consider in sufficient time.
  4.30 p.m.
  The real grievance remains unremedied. Not only will there be insufficient time to consider and debate the amendments. The fundamental point is that there is no time for us or for those in the country whom we seek to represent to consider the whole raft of fundamental Government amendments which have been tabled in the last two days. This goes to the heart of our parliamentary functions. It is impossible for us to do other than make a mockery or charade of parliamentary government in the fact of what the Government seek to do.
  The capital transfer tax, which we and many people outside regard as thoroughly destructive, has been introduced in such a way that no Government who seek to call themselves responsible should be prepared to drive ahead and get it on the statute book in the way that the Government have in mind. It is an impossible way to proceed. There is no need for them to do it. The Bill has been separated in Parts I, II and IV as one section, and Part III is to come later. The Government can sensibly and practically secure, by recommittal of the Bill or in other ways, that Part III and the capital transfer tax no longer remain part of the vehicle which they intend to get into its home port in time to comply with the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act.
  Let me examine the timetable which has been followed for the Bill. The Government announced their intention to introduce the legislation as long ago as March last year—almost 12 months ago.

  1067
  From then until August the entire Government machine, fired only by the initial inspiration of Transport House, devoted itself to the generation of a White Paper which was meant to clarify what the Government would do. From March until August the Government machine was able to produce the White Paper. Therefore, five months were occupied in that process of deliberation.
  In the White Paper the Government indicated a number of principles which they hoped to embody in the legislation and others which they intended to reconsider. For example, they said that they did not consider it appropriate to continue the specially favourable treatment accorded to woodlands; that they were considering the possibility of continuing relief for full-time working farmers and business men in respect of agricultural land and business assets; and that they were considering the question of dealing with the national heritage and works of art. They also set out aspirations in relation to gifts to charities and said that it was outside the scope of the White Paper to give a detailed account of the provisions which they proposed to introduce to govern the liabilities of trustees in respect of settled property.
  That shows that after five months of deliberation the Government and their advisers were still considering those important, fundamental matters. By the time that they had published the Finance Bill in November last year, after eight months deliberation, they still had not sufficiently resolved matters to be able to propose any solutions to those problems. Last week they brought forward amendments to deal with all those matters only so far as they think they can or should—to our mind, by no means adequately. If it has taken the Government, in making changes which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has described as the most important tax changes since the end of the war, almost 12 months to present us with inadequate solutions, how can any legislative assembly which describes itself as responsible, which claims to be the Mother of Parliaments and which sets an example for parliamentary procedure round the world, consider and debate these matters in the next few days? It is intolerable.
  1068
  Let us consider parallels. Take a modest case in the type of county court which considered the sort of litigation with which years ago no doubt Mr. Speaker was concerned in Birkenhead. Let us suppose that it was an action between a citizen and his neighbour about a boundary dispute or an alleged assault. If during the hearing of the case one side sought to amend its statement of the case, it is axiomatic that the court would grant an adjournment of weeks rather than days.
  We are not faced with that situation. We are the parliamentary representatives of hundreds of thousands of people whose businesses, farms and forestry plantations will be affected by the Bill, with millions of other people employed in such enterprises whose interests will be gravely threatened by this absurd legislative hotch-potch.
  This is not a debating point. It is not advanced in order to delay discussion. It goes to the fundamental merits of the Government's position. The Chief Secretary must learn, if he has not learned already, that he cannot escape from his responsibility for the mess that we are in by smirking, laughing and giggling. We have had quite enough of that, and the sooner he wipes the grin off his face the better it will be for him and the country. Every utterance by the Chief Secretary only underlines the extent—
  Mr. David Weitzman: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. What do the right hon. and learned Gentleman's remarks have to do with the motion? It is a simple motion. Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman in order in what he has said? He is merely wasting time.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. George Thomas): The hon. and learned Gentleman should not make his own contribution to wasting time. The right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) is in order.
  Sir G. Howe: The situation is intolerable and it cannot be laughed away.
  The Government have failed, in the months that they have allowed themselves to get the matter right, to table amendments which satisfy their own limited aspirations. The position in relation to

  1069
  discretionary trusts is a measure of the absurdity of their situation. On the Notice Paper for Tuesday 25th February there is a splendid, shining, resplendent New Clause No. 5 in the name of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to deal with the position concerning certain trusts. On Wednesday, within 24 hours, under the same inauspicious parentage, New Clause No. 7 was tabled which apparently does the same as New Clause No. 5, but the Government have had to introduce into it a subsection (4). How can there be any credibility about parliamentary consideration when the Government amend their own amendments within 24 hours and only a few days before we debate them?
  One can give an almost infinite number of examples. On Thursday last week the Government tabled a long and complex series of amendments relating to the forestry industry. I have nothing but admiration for the parliamentary counsel who must be working night and day in an endeavour to produce the amendments. But he has the privilege of being an expert in this matter and of being able to devote the whole of his time to it. Other people have not seen the documents, and we are told—I understand it to be so—
  Mr. Ridley: My right hon. and learned Friend praised the parliamentary draftsman, but he has made an almighty mess of the clause, which does not make sense and is unworkable in terms of the forestry industry. The clause requires a Committee stage. Will my right hon. and learned Friend suggest the recommittal of the forestry new clause, which we cannot possibly deal with on Report?
  Sir G. Howe: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. I praise the industry, assiduity and nicety of parliamentary counsel to the bounds of that well-known office. I know that the view of parliamentary counsel is that they would not contemplate clauses which have been subject to their most careful consideration reaching the statute book without the benefit of a Committee stage.
  Here we have a new schedule with a substantial series of amendments which, far from having a Committee stage, will receive virtually no consideration because
  1070
  we shall not be able to consult the people who will be affected by the amendments. As I understand, there has been no consultation at all between the Government and the forestry industry about these matters. That is another indictment about the way in which the matter is being handled.
  As I understand—and I do not pretend to understand it completely in view of the limited time I have had—I am sufficiently modest to make that point and I appreciate the Chief Secretary's further giggle about it—the Government in the new schedule propose to move from their original disastrous position to one in which on the disposition of every tree that is felled, and conceivably on every twig that is lopped off the forests, a further chargeable event shall take place. The country will be dominated from end to end by as many chargeable events as there are twigs upon the trees.
  Mr. Robert Adley: As I represent a constituency one of the boroughs of which has as its motto "By sea and forest enchanted" may I ask my right hon. and learned Friend to extract from the Chief Secretary whether there was any consultation with the Forestry Commission and other responsible bodies before the amendments were tabled?
  Sir G. Howe: I hope that my hon. Friend will have his own opportunity for making such an extraction and his own special methods of carrying out such a delicate surgical operation. I will leave him to undertake that, if he catches your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
  The Government gave certain undertakings in Committee to make changes in relation to charities on public bodies and political parties. We know that they have made some in relation to charities. They were intending to table further amendments dealing with political and public bodies. It may be that in the document that is winging around the House, about which the Leader of the House told us a few moments ago, some such texts appear. I know not. The fact that on such a vital matter we are still uncertain shows that this is an impossible way of handling major tax changes. It is intolerable. It stretches the bounds of toleration of a legislative assembly

  1071
  positively to the limits and beyond those limits.
  The Government have a remedy in their own hands if they will accept the advice that has been given not just by hon. Members but by many commentators outside to take away Part III the capital transfer tax provisions, to consider it again and to bring it forward in a subsequent separate Bill or remit it for consideration by a Select Committee.
  4.45 p.m.
  I want to quote from one of the many documents which seek to enshrine the parliamentary traditions of this place, a book called "The Procedure of the House of Commons" by Mr. Redlich, published in 1908. Volume III of that analysis says:
  "The political development of our own day has laid bare—in the first instance in England, and then in nearly all the constitutional states of Europe—the conventional foundation of parliamentary government. Parliamentary conventions appear above all in the forms of parliamentary action, in the limitations to party strategy imposed by the inviolable bounds of the rules and in the tacit agreement among all who take part in parliamentary life to handle these rules in a reasonable way."
  It may be that the rules of this place allow the Government to handle major tax changes of this kind in this way. If that be so, they may deserve re-examination. What is certainly not the case is that the conventions of this place by which we have all been bound, the entire tradition of our parliamentary government, allow us to be treated in the way in which the Government propose.
  I mentioned earlier the extent to which in the most modest case in the most modest court in this country we should expect to be given days if not weeks to consider a simple change in the way in which either party was presenting his case. That proposition is enshrined in what we have all come to regard in this House and outside as the rules of natural justice. Natural justice inside the House as well as outside it requires that people who are likely to be affected by administrative acts, decisions or proceedings should be given adequate notice of what is proposed. The rules of natural justice require that for very good reasons, so that the parties may be in a position
  1072
  to make representations on their own behalf.
  What opportunity has been given in a practical sense to the millions of people I have been speaking about to make representations of that kind? Absolutely none. They must also be given that consideration so that they may have a chance effectively to prepare their case. That chance also has been denied to them, and that is equally intolerable. We have substantial reasons behind us when we argue for a change in approach.
  The Government have only one solution, which is to withdraw Part III of the Bill and to accept the advice which was given to them by many commentators in the Press during the weekend. I hope that the Chief Secretary has seen—and I am sure he will not be able to rebut—the proposition contained in the leading article in this morning's Financial Times which says:
  "The method of putting forward this major tax reform has so far been an object lesson in how not to do it;"
  We can all say "Hear, hear" to that.
  Mr. Patrick Hutber in yesterday's Sunday Telegraph summarises the point:
  "It is not just that those affected will not have heard of them. It is not that outside experts will have no chance to make their contribution. It is not even that the Opposition may not have had a chance of understanding them."
  I make no apology for saying that we agree with that. How could we understand this horrendous torrent of amendments? Mr. Hutber goes on to say:
  "The likelihood, the overwhelming balance of probabilities, is that the Government will not understand the effect of its own amendments either.
  When I look at the Treasury's pantomime horse I feel sorrier for the front legs than the back. Mr. Joel Barnett makes some attempt to understand what it is he is talking about. But the back legs, 'Dr.' John Gilbert"—
  He will not be smiling much longer—
  "as arrogant as he is incompetent, will on his committee form plough doggedly through his departmental briefs barely understanding the parsing of the sentences, let alone the meaning."
  That is also a valid comment.
  I quote finally from today's The Times, from Mr. Hugh Stephenson in the Business Section:

  1073
  "All this, however, pales in comparison with the autumn Finance Bill. The presenting symptoms of the chaos are the extreme complexity of the capital transfer tax and the fact that, despite the long Christmas break, the Bill has to be on the statute book by 14th March, to comply with the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act. As a result, scores of basic amendments to the Bill, proposed by the Government themselves, have not been published until after the Committee stage, where the detailed examination of the Bill is supposed to take place. These are partly in response to outside pressure and partly in the realisation that the original Bill was saying things that were never intended."
  All those comments and verdicts are valid. The answer is to abandon consideration of this part of the Bill. Let the Government recommit it for consideration in any of the alternative ways open to them. The Government do not need to have Part III of the Bill to comply with the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act. I have no doubt, given patience and hard work on both sides, that in the time available the Government will be able to have Parts I, II and IV. They do not need to have Part III nor should they have it. What is a glimmering of realisation in the Government's mind of the way in which this should be handled is apparent from an amendment on the Order Paper that reached us during the weekend. It is on page 441 as it then was, Amendment No. 92 to Clause 39 standing in the name of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in these words:
  "but no period beginning before 6th April 1976 shall be a chargeable period."
  The Chief Secretary well knows that that amendment relates to a clause dealing with free loans. It is a clause which was criticised in Committee, in relation to which he acknowledged that many amendments were necessary and in relation to which very few, if any, amendments have been brought forward because the Government have not been able to solve their own problems. The Government are therefore seeking to solve their own problems by including this amendment saying, "O.K. chaps, let us call it a day for another 12 months." That clause will not begin to take effect until 6th April 1976.
  If the Government are able to take that course in relation to that important provision of this horrendous, abortive, unnecessary, unjust and destructive tax, they are able to take precisely the same
  1074
  course in relation to the whole subject of capital transfer tax. They should make plain to the House that they will not press ahead with consideration of Part III. Unless they do that their handling of this legislation will be a disgrace to parliamentary democracy and to their record.
  Mr. William Clark: In supporting what my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) said, I wish to point out to the Chief Secretary that he must understand the true position. He said that he was making this proposal to help the House. I have been a Member of this House for some time, and I have never heard such political arrogance. What the right hon. Gentleman is proposing is not to help the House. It is to get the Government off the hook. It is unworthy of the right hon. Gentleman to say that he is helping the House.
  I come next to the number of amendments which have been tabled. On Friday we had a brief debate about them, and subsequently it was agreed that certain hon. Members would be sent amendment papers over the weekend. It was said that those hon. Members who served on the Committee should have them. I wish to point out that I was a member of the Committee, though not necessarily of the Standing Committee. Every hon. Member was a member of the Committee on the Finance Bill, because the Committee stage started on the Floor of this House. Part of the Bill was sent upstairs.
  I hope that we are not creating a precedent whereby we have first-class and second-class Members. I take exception to the fact that because I was not a member of the Standing Committee I was precluded from getting the amendments over the weekend. I was a member of the Finance Bill Committee, as every other Member was. The Committee stage started on the Floor, and the Report stage is taken on the Floor. It is no good the Chief Secretary trying to pacify some hon. Members because they have spent time in Committee upstairs. He must satisfy all hon. Members—
  The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Robert Mellish): The list to which the hon. Gentleman referred was supplied by his own party. If the Conservative Party believes that there are

  1075
  first-class and second-class Members of Parliament, that is not our fault.
  Mr. Clark: I do not take that from the Patronage Secretary. He knows that the direct responsibility for supplying any papers to hon. Members of this House is that of the Government. The Government should not be deflected in their choice of those hon. Members to whom Notice Papers should be sent. They should have gone to every Member. I maintain that I am a member of the Finance Bill Committee. I cannot see why, just because I did not serve on the Standing Committee, I should be precluded from having these amendments.
  Mr. Patrick Cormack: Is my hon. Friend aware that some hon. Members who were here on Friday and who requested Notice Papers did not receive them over the weekend?
  Mr. Clark: That is another administrative difficulty into which the Government have got themselves.
  I also support what my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East said about the duties of a Member of Parliament to his constituents. My right hon. and learned Friend logically and clearly described how long the Government have had to frame this legislation; yet here we are at the last moment with no one knowing exactly in what form the CTT may eventually be. What is more, I suggest that not one member of the Government, not one member of the Inland Revenue and not one member of the Treasury understands it.
  I am a member of the Select Committee which is considering the wealth tax. Recently we were discussing the product of the capital transfer tax, which is quite obviously analogous to the wealth tax. If the capital transfer tax is successful in fragmenting wealth, the product of the wealth tax will be that much less. The Select Committee examined witnesses from the Inland Revenue. I asked whether in their forecasts of the product of the capital transfer tax and that of the so-called wealth tax they had projected what the product might be to the Exchequer. They could not tell me. I can understand why. They do not understand
  1076
  the capital transfer tax. No one does.
  One day the Chief Secretary himself will be in opposition. He ought to remember that a Member of Parliament is the buffer between the executive and the general public. It does not matter who the general public may be—farmers, industrialists, widows, or whatever. The Member is the buffer between the executive and the general public. How can a Member of Parliament, not knowing what the tax is about, possibly say to his farmer, his forestry owner, his business man or any other constituent "I cannot explain what the capital transfer tax means"? We cannot know. How can we know? We have had the whole Government machine, with all its expertise in the Civil Service, thinking about these facts for the past 10 or 11 months. Even that has not come up with the answer.
  I put this to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, as a serious point. How can a back bencher or an Opposition Front Bench spokesman get the expertise in two or three days to match that of two or three months from the Civil Service? It is monstrous that the Government have brought forward this legislation in this way.
  I mentioned the wealth tax allied with the capital transfer tax. The Inland Revenue's witnesses admitted that they could not tell me how much the product of the capital transfer tax would be and how much the product of the wealth tax would be. My comment to them was that they were groping in the dark, and they agreed. What an indictment of our taxation system that is. Here we have a very important tax. The Inland Revenue's representatives admit that they are groping in the dark. If they are groping in the dark, what about the poor backbench Member of this House? What is he to do? He is put in an impossible posiiton.
  I hope that the Chief Secretary will take to heart, and I trust that he will tell the Chancellor of the Exchequer—[HON. MEMBERS: "Where is he?"] He is trying to understand the CTT—
  Mr. Ridley: Is my hon. Friend aware that those Opposition Members who served on the Standing Committee understood a great deal more about this tax than the Inland Revenue? Our real

  1077
  worry is not that we do not understand the tax. Our worry is that the staff of the Inland Revenue have not a clue what they are doing and that, after the Committee stage, they have given up trying. That is the danger. We have to give them a little time in which to sort out their ideas and to get the legislation redrafted altogether.
  Mr. Clark: If those in the Inland Revenue have given up trying, certainly we have not. I hope that the Chief Secretary will talk to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. With all his accountancy experience, he knows as well as I do that the tax is ill-thought up and that the Treasury, the Inland Revenue, the parliamentary draftsmen and the economists want to look at it again. There is no urgency about it. In bringing out the Bill in November with a tax which is more revolutionary than any that we have had in the past 50 or 60 years and in expecting this House, without proper amendment papers, to pass it, the Chief Secretary is treating us with tremendous disrespect.
  I hope that the Chief Secretary will take what I say in the spirit in which I say it. My advice to him is that it would be much better to take back Part III, if he wishes to do so to put it to a Select Committee, but not to rush it through in this way, and certainly not unless both sides of the House understand it.
  Mr. Grimond: My remarks will be brief, because most of the arguments on this matter have been deployed already.
  I begin by pouring a little oil on troubled water. It would be disingenuous of me not to thank the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his team for the courtesy with which they have received certain representations on this theme from me. I was not a member of the Standing Committee, but certainly from outside the Committee I have not found them to be arrogant.
  5.0 p.m.
  The mere fact that there are to be so many changes, so many admendments, and so much correspondence is in itself a reason against rushing this legislation through in the way in which it is being done. Over the years, under every Finance Act certain innocent people have found themselves clobbered, not for any
  1078
  reason, not according to the intentions of the then Government or the House, but because we constantly attempt to rush through Finance Bills which neither we nor the Inland Revenue fully understand.
  I underline what has been said about the Inland Revenue. I have the greatest admiration and sympathy for its officials. Goodness knows how they keep informed even about the changes in VAT or income tax, far less about new taxes of this sort. I receive more correspondence about delays over taxes than on any other subject. This is the fault not of the Inland Revenue but of successive Governments and this House of Commons.
  When it was agreed that part of the Finance Bill should be sent upstairs to a Standing Committee many of us were concerned that we should not be able to carry out our fundamental duty as Members of Parliament and examine the Bill. But we were to some extent mollified by the assurance that there would be adequate time on Report to consider what the Committee had done. Further, we believed that we should have adequate time between Committee and Report to consult those who might be affected, and also our advisers.
  It is no good the House or the Government saying that they are caught up in a procedural difficulty about 14th March. We are masters of our own business. If the Government have got into this difficulty, it is they who are responsible for it, not the public. The public never asked for this tax, or anything like it, and it is no good telling the public that the Government are caught up in a net which is of the Government's own setting.
  It is important that ordinary Members of Parliament should have an opportunity to consider proposed taxes, to amend, and to discuss them with their constituents and explain to them what has happened. This is still a varied country, and hon. Members have different industries in their constituencies. We represent different trades, and we have to interpret taxation to those industries and trades in such situations.
  For instance, in the northern counties of Scotland there is a system of land holding which is unknown in the rest of the United Kingdom. I do not believe that the possible repercussions for that were taken into account in Standing Committee. There are areas in which forestry

  1079
  is of great importance. There are areas which pursue particular trades, and often Finance Acts have clobbered these trades without the House understanding that there was any danger of that happening. The reason is that there cannot be in Standing Committee Members who represent all the different trades and interests of this country. It is essential for the House to maintain the right of individual Members to take part in the Report stage of a Finance Bill and to have adequate time to consider it. I do not believe that anyone can say that is the present situation.
  It would be scandalous if any Bill were treated in this way, but when the effect of this Bill reaches the public and they realise how they were treated there will be a still further decline in the reputation of Parliament.
  Mr. Percy Grieve: It shows the depths to which we have descended, when we have been considering Finance Bills in their complexity over the years, that the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) should even, as it were, have to defend the right and duty of hon. Members to examine a Finance Bill in detail. I should have thought that that was the first duty of a Member of the House, because the House of Commons established its power and position in Parliament by its control over supply.
  The whole question of taxation depends upon consent, and that means the consent not only of the House of Commons in Parliament but also of the people whom we represent. If we pass the Bill in this way it will mean that we shall be hurrying through consent on behalf of our constituents and those who will be affected in their businesses, in their farms and in their families by this ill thought out, malicious, envious, hateful legislation. I make no apology for those words. I do not think there has ever before been legislation so destructive of the family as an entity as this Bill will be.
  The capital transfer tax is designed to stop up, divert and pollute the stream of benevolence and natural love and affection and duty in the family. It is designed to destroy the family as an entity in society and the savings which
  1080
  it is the natural and human instinct of individuals to pass on from one generation to another.
  Part of the Bill has been considered in Standing Committee. I did not have the honour of serving on that Committee, but on behalf of my constituents I desire to play my part in our discussions on Report. Last week I went every day to the Vote Office and asked for such amendments as had been put down so that I might consider them. What there was available by Friday was a mere trifle compared with what I obtained at five minutes to 1 o'clock today. At that time I was given not only the 60 pages to which the Lord President of the Council so cavalierly referred when he made his statement this afternoon, but a further few pages numbered 64 to 67. I have not yet had the benefit—though some of my hon. Friends may have—of receiving pages 61 to 63.
  During the lunch hour, I endeavoured to look through the amendments. They are not numbered. They are in no conceivable order relating to the various clauses with which they are concerned. There is amendment piled upon amendment piled upon amendment. I am a practising member of the Bar, and I would say without any hesitation or fear of contradiction that to study these amendments, which were available at five minutes to 1 o'clock, would require the undiverted, uninterrupted labour and concentration of a skilled tax counsel for at least one month, and possibly a great deal longer.
  It is inconceivable that the House of Commons can be asked to deal with these matters at the end of the consideration on Report of the other parts of the Bill. That may take us tonight and tomorrow and possibly into Wednesday, leaving one day only for a consideration of this tax with its horrific effect upon the whole organisation of life and society and the family in Britain.
  I therefore add my voice to what has been said by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) and others who have spoken this afternoon. There is only one course which the Government can properly take in this matter, and that is to withdraw Part III of the Bill altogether and to refer

  1081
  it to the Select Committee which is considering the wealth tax so that the two matters can be considered together.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Clark) said a few moments ago, there is a link between this tax and the proposed wealth tax. The Chancellor's avowed policy—and let no one blink at it—has been announced as clearly as Hitler announced his policy in "Mein Kampf". It is to destroy the middle class of this country, or as he said, to make the rich howl and the pips squeak. I have no doubt that what is sought by this legislation is to make it impossible for families to disperse wealth amongst their own members so that units of wealth may be available to pay a far larger proportion of the wealth tax when that tax is instituted. If that is so, the right hon. Gentleman should have said as much. However, the matter is as plain as a pikestaff.
  For those reasons I submit that this Part of the Bill should be referred to the Select Committee so that the two matters can be considered together. It is plainly politic that that should be so. Further, it is plainly just. I support my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East. Blinkered as they may be by malice, hatred and envy, I trust that the Government will see the light and do what is just and right.
  Mr. Graham Page: My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe), asked how soon we should reach Part III of the Bill if we accepted the Chancellor's motion. I repeat that question because in Standing Committee, on scores of occasions, the Chief Secretary or the Financial Secretary said that they would be prepared to consider Opposition amendments. They indicated that there might be some value in them and that they were prepared to consider them. That proved to us that we were putting forward reasonable and constructive amendments on Part III in particular.
  It will be within the recollection of the Chief Secretary and the Financial Secretary that on two occasions I asked, bearing in mind the assurances which were given that amendments would be considered, whether we would be informed before Report whether the Government were doing anything about the
  1082
  amendments. I asked that we should be informed if the Government were not doing anything about them so that we might table our own amendments. That is a normal, common courtesy that has always been recognised between Committee Members and Ministers between Standing Committee and Report. It is an ordinary common courtesy if not a convention of the House. I suppose that the Government are so busy sorting out courtesies between Ministers that they are not prepared to give ordinary common courtesies to the House.
  The fact is that I have received no notification since Standing Committee on any of the assurances that I was given by the Chief Secretary and the Financial Secretary. To my mind the convention of the House has not been carried out.
  All I received by post this morning—I looked carefully at the envelope to see when it was posted and I found that it was posted on Saturday—were 134 foolscap pages of amendments. How on earth can anyone be expected to look through those pages to find out which amendments refer to the matters with which he is particularly concerned and to what extent the Government have met the amendments moved in Standing Committee? It makes me feel that if I and my colleagues serve again on a Standing Committee on a Finance Bill we shall never be so accommodating to the Government as we were on this occasion. On many occasions in Standing Committee we cut down the length of our debates because we received assurances from the Government not only that they would look at certain matters again but that they would let individual members of the Committee know what they thought so that they might take further action on Report. We have not been given that chance. There is no chance now to sort out our own amendments, let alone consult outside sources.
  Parliamentary government is not just using one's knowledge and experience; it involves consultation with those who know the subject well. Parliamentary government involves trying to understand various matters by discussing them with experts and making a proper contribution by amending Government legislation by tabling constructive amendments and new clauses. In this instance we have not had

  1083
  the opportunity to do so. The Government have broken the conventions and courtesies of the House.
  5.15 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Hordern: The House is clearly in great difficulty. I do not recall an occasion before when in the middle of points of order a Minister responsible for the Civil Service has come to the House to announce the Government's position and to inform us of the breakdown of the Government's printing machine. I am still not clear about the latest position. Are we to understand that future amendments and all Government amendments are to produced in cyclostyle, or are we to have the proper printed form with the amendments conveniently marshalled and arranged? I hope that the Chief Secretary will tell the House the correct position. It is obviously unsatisfactory that we should be expected to consider amendments in this form when they are not even marshalled and are not even in order.
  The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) referred to the deeply unsatisfactory position which arises for those right hon. and hon. Members who have to consider the Bill in its present form as amended in Standing Committee. The right hon. Gentleman said that he had not received proper notice of the amendments to be considered at this stage and had not been able, on behalf of his constituents, to discuss amendments which had been debated in Standing Committee. That underlines the whole weakness of the present system. It was not so long ago, when I was first elected to the House, when the whole of a Finance Bill was discussed in Committee on the Floor of the House. Every right hon. and hon. Member then had the right to intervene at any stage of the Bill to make his point. With a measure such as the capital transfer tax I am sure that at least all my right hon. and hon. Friends would wish to make many interventions to try to improve such a disastrous measure.
  I recollect the arrangement and agreement that was made between both sides of the House, the idea being that a Standing Committee in considering a Finance Bill was to consider only those
  1084
  clauses which were of a marked technical nature and not of general interest to all right hon. and hon. Members. The capital transfer tax cannot conceivably be considered as a mere technicality which right hon. and hon. Members would not wish to consider fully. It imposes many new principles on the taxation edifice of our country and is a matter which is worthy of detailed consideration by all right hon. and hon. Members.
  The House is now placed in the position of looking anxiously to see what occurred in Standing Committee. It is now presented with a Bill as amended by Standing Committee, and it is led to understand that further amendments will be laid before the House in this highly unsatisfactory form. I do not know the printing position. No doubt the Chief Secretary will make further comment upon that. It is highly unsatisfactory that a Minister representing the Civil Service should have to make an intervention in this debate on such a matter, an intervention which apparently is not even to be questioned. It would have been much more appropriate if the Secretary of State for Employment had made the statement. As he is so concerned with the subject of economic literacy I would have thought that that was the least that he could do.
  It is clear that the House is in considerable difficulty in considering a vast wad of amendments. Let us consider the position. On several important points—particularly those concerning forestry, agriculture and the national heritage—the Government are now bringing forward further amendments to the capital transfer tax. We do not know whether they have completed their task, and I doubt very much whether they have done so. I know that in one instance concerning national heritage I received an undertaking from the Chief Secretary. I naturally looked with great care at the list of amendments which has so far been produced. The result is that I see no sign of that undertaking being carried out.
  I want to talk with my constituents and to consult those experts who are interested in the matter. I want to test their reaction to the Government amendments. Supposing that they are tabled tomorrow, Tuesday. I could consult various people tomorrow who advise me on these matters and the amendments would presumably

  1085
  come up for discussion, if that stage of the Bill is reached, by Thursday. But what an unsatisfactory position that is. There is no way in which right hon. and hon. Members can consider the proposals and be given proper time in which to do so.
  The position of charities and other public bodies is highly unsatisfactory. We cannot discuss the facts realistically and my right hon. and learned Friend is right to recommend its withdrawal and consideration at a later stage. The right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland talked about the problems of a net from which it was impossible to escape. A net is only a lot of holes joined with string—and that is what this tax is.
  Mr. Gow: I support the suggestion that the Government should remove from Report stage the consideration of Part III. Part I contains four clauses, Part II 14, and Part IV seven, but Part III, which we find particularly offensive, has no fewer than 31 clauses and eight schedules.
  My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) was unkind to criticise the Chief Secretary for smiling. Children smile when they do not understand what is going on, so I do not find it surprising that he should smile as we discuss these matters, particularly the capital transfer tax:
  On the final day of the Committee debate, the Chief Secretary, in almost his final words, said:
  "It has been a historic Committee in which a magnificent tax has seen considerable progress."—[Official Report, Standing Committee A; 18th February, 1975, c. 2301.]
  So much progress was made that more amendments and new clauses have been tabled since Committee than with any other Finance Bill.
  We have also had the astonishing admission by the Leader of the House two hours ago that only hon. Members who serve on the Committee had been supplied over the weekend with details of some of the amendments. I understand that even that suggestion was more in the Lord President's mind than in reality. In any case, by what token do the Government assert that those who serve on the Committee are entitled to preferential treatment? Surely it is elementary that every hon. Member is entitled particularly in the preparation for a crucial Report
  1086
  stage, to be treated with the same courtesy.
  I must also refer to the time allowed for consideration of Government amendments. On 16th September 1967, in the Queen's Bench Division of the High Court, a judge was asked to rule about the period of five days which the then Secretary of State for Education, now in another place, had laid down as the time limit in which objections had to be laid before he amended the articles of Enfield Grammar School. The court held that five days was unreasonable and contrary to natural justice. The learned judge allowed four weeks.
  If natural justice required and a High Court judge asserted that four weeks was reasonable for objections to be lodged relating to the articles of Enfield Grammar School, how much more notice should there not be for us to consider, not a measure which affects a limited category, but something which will affect the whole nation for the future—or at least until this Government are replaced by one presided over by my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher)?
  In seeking to force the capital transfer tax provisions through the House on Report, the Government have given a derisory period of notice which means that my right hon. Friends and I cannot give these complicated provisions the consideration they deserve. But there is another factor—that of natural justice—which should compel the Government to withdraw Part III. I hope that the Government will do so.
  There is another matter which should affect hon. Members. On the Chancellor's own admission, the revenue from capital transfer tax during the financial year 1975–76 will be significantly lower than if estate duty had continued. Those of us who are concerned about the Government's borrowing requirement would on that ground welcome a continuation of estate duty. There is no urgency over capital transfer tax. On the contrary, as my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Clark) wisely and rightly said, its whole concept should be submitted forthwith by the Government to the Select Committee which is considering the wealth tax. This measure needs more careful consideration. The only way in

  1087
  which that can be achieved is to refer the whole of the concept of Part III to that Select Committee.
  Another consideration weighs with my hon. Friends. The Government are in enough hot water already. You will have read, Mr. Deputy Speaker, of the disagreements between the Secretary of State for Employment and his wiser right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science. Why should we heap more problems on this Government? We shall shortly be coming to the next Budget. The Cabinet has enough problems without adding to the Government's embarrassment by proceeding with this tax. One can only hope that in drafting the referendum Bill, the Government will be a little more careful—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Perhaps they will, but that has nothing to do with this debate.
  Mr. Gow: Of course I defer to your ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I was only expressing the hope that the Government do not compound their own folly by drafting future Bills as negligently as they drafted this one.
  Finally, I want to spare the Government further embarrassment. That thought is uppermost in the minds of all of my right hon. and hon. Friends. We on the Opposition side of the House are not bullies. We do not wish to pile further humiliation on to the Government Front Bench. Why does not the Chief Secretary smile a bigger smile than usual and oblige not only us but many of his hon. Friends and the overwhelming majority of people by withdrawing this mean, miserable and ill-considered proposal for a capital transfer tax?
  5.30 p.m.
  Mr. Patrick Mayhew: There was one remark made by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he introduced the Bill with which we on the Opposition side of the House could agree. It was possibly the only remark with which we could agree. It was that the capital transfer tax represented the single most important change in tax policy since the war.
  One consequence flows from that fact—that if a large number of important amendments to what is the most important
  1088
  single change in tax policy are introduced, they themselves constitute amendments of major importance. Parliament cannot do its job if we do not consider them diligently, thoroughly and carefully. That is the point on which we ought to be fastening today, the more so, perhaps, as this measure will not get the degree of revision in another place that another measure would.
  I believe that if any lawyer were to consider and give an opinion to his client upon a measure or a provision of this difficulty and complexity and should get it wrong after considering it for only the very brief time that is being allowed to us by the Government, he would have no answer to a claim for damages for professional negligence. How much more important is it that we, the legislature, who have a duty to form the law rather than simply to pass an opinion upon it, should take sufficient time at least for ourselves to understand what it is we are being asked to legislate upon?
  If the Government were to give way to the protests that have been made this afternoon, they would attract to themselves only respect. They would not lose anything. They would not forgo the opportunity to get their tax in the end. They would not run out of time. They would lose nothing of any consequence. But if they persist, if they are obdurate, not only will they bring themselves into contempt—they are at liberty to do that, and, indeed, welcome to do it—but, what is far more important, they will bring Parliament into contempt. That is something that is not only unjustifiable; it is unforgivable.
  Mr. Nicholas Fairbairn: I agree with my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Royal Tunbridge Wells (Mr. Mayhew) that the greatest danger of this type of legislation is that of bringing Parliament into contempt. There is not the slightest doubt that the legislation that we pass is far too complicated. It is too complicated for the citizen to comprehend and too complicated for Members of Parliament to understand. It is too complicated for Members on the Treasury Bench to understand. I do not believe that the Treasury Bench understands a word of the implications of their own amendments. That is the condemnation that

  1089
  deserves to be put upon the matter, and that these amendments should be put down by those who are trying to say that the simple taxpayers are consistently finding loopholes in their insane legislation is hyprocrisy itself.
  It is because you pass legislation which, in all English and sense—far less in law—is incomprehensible, and you put down amendments which you do not understand, which are ill-digested—which cannot be digested—that you are inviting the House to be in contempt of its duty and authority. Upon you, and you alone, the blame will fall and, I trust, fall hardly.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Just for the record, I have not done this. Let the blame fall elsewhere.
  Mr. Adley: I wonder whether the reason why the Opposition are so concerned about the need to consult their constituents and others contrasts so deeply with the way in which Labour Members do not seem to regard that as necessary may be because it is normal practice for the Opposition to consult their constituents whereas on the Government side of the House it may well be normal practice to receive instructions from sponsors such as trade unions.
  I intervened during the speech of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) and invited the Chief Secretary to say whether he had consulted the Forestry Commission or others about the clauses and the amended clauses as they related to forestry. I can draw only my own conclusions from the Chief Secretary's silence.
  Because the manner in which this Finance Bill has been handled in such a shambles, a very large number of worthy amendments and new clauses will not be debated at all as a result of the Government's behaviour.
  The motion allows us to discuss
  "new Clauses not relating to capital transfer tax or estate duty"
  as the first of a number of items which are detailed. I wish to turn my attention to one particular new clause. Before doing so, however, I should like to say that the House, in being denied the opportunity to discuss New Clauses No. 13 and 14,
  1090
  in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr. Fowler)—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman was not present earlier when Mr. Speaker said that those new clauses were out of order.
  Mr. Adley: I was indeed present, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have sat here throughout. The point I am making is that the reason that so many of these new clauses have had to be declared out of order is, I suspect, largely that insufficient time has been available to Members to take the necessary steps to ensure that they would be in order. If, Mr. Deputy Speaker, you are ruling that it is impossible for me to discuss any of the new clauses which have not been selected, I am delighted to be able to inform the House that most of my speech will remain unsaid. I should be grateful for your ruling on this matter.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: My ruling on the matter is that no clause will be discussed in detail at this stage. We are discussing the order in which they shall be taken.
  Mr. Adley: I appreciate your point, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I certainly do not wish to abuse that ruling. But I was seeking to refer to the words on the Order Paper in the Chancellor's motion, in which the first point is the reference to clauses not related to capital transfer tax or estate duty. There is nothing on the Order Paper to say that this shall be with reference only to those amendments selected. We are, therefore, in some difficulty. In order, therefore, not to abuse your ruling, I shall conclude my remarks almost before they have started—remarks of regret and shame for the way in which the Government are handling the House of Commons and, by their actions, preventing the raising of many issues which ought properly to be raised on the Finance Bill annually.
  That is the point at which I wish to conclude. Many of my hon. Friends will know that for me to subside in silence is not a usual occurrence. I do so with great regret.
  Mr. Peter Rees: I intervene briefly to support the plea which my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey,

  1091
  East (Sir G. Howe) made to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and to the Chief Secretary.
  I had the privilege of serving on the Standing Committee. The brutal relish with which the Chancellor described the way in which he proposed to lay the lash on the broad backs which he is always singling out for such treatment and the personal attacks which he made on my right hon. Friend who represents Finchley with such distinction did not conceal from me, nor do I think it concealed from the House, the fact that the Chancellor had barely condescended to master the outlines of his own Bill.
  I suppose that was to be expected. This is what we have come to expect from the Chancellor, who always considers that an ounce of malice and prejudice will suffice in this kind of fiscal tight corner.
  It became a little disappointing and worrying to those of us who served on the Standing Committee that the Chief Secretary and the Financial Secretary did not in great measure understand the details of their own Bill. I sympathise with them greatly in their predicament. They have been considering other matters. However, it rested with them, if they felt that they could not get the measure of the new tax which they were proposing to introduce, at least to withdraw it for a period of leisurely consideration. This they did not choose to do.
  The result was a flurry of notes passed in the early hours of the morning from the Government advisers upstairs to the Chief Secretary and the Financial Secretary. I pay tribute to the dexterity with which the Chief Secretary and the Financial Secretary read out the briefs which they barely comprehended. Still, this is no way in which to pilot through Committee a highly complex piece of legislation.
  One of the consequences was—I speak from personal recollection of Schedule 5, to which I was privileged to move one or two amendments—that the Chief Secretary was time and again compelled to say that he would take the matter away for further consideration. In a sense, this was the generosity which the right hon. Gentleman habitually shows
  1092
  in such debates. In another sense, it was because, as I said, he barely understood the brief that had been thrust into his quivering hand and certainly had had no time to master the notes which had been passed down to him.
  As a consequence, between 20 and 30 amendments were withdrawn on the assurance that the Chief Secretary would take the matter away and consider whether there was a point of substance.
  I have always understood it to be a practice in the conduct of our business, when a Minister takes away a point and says that he will consider it before Report, that he writes to the Member who moved the amendment and who was concerned principally in the debate and informs him of what the fruits of his consideration might have been.
  I must tell the House that on Wednesday of last week I had still not received such a letter from the Chief Secretary. So I wrote to him. I believe that I put my case modestly. I appreciated the difficulties under which he was labouring. I asked him, in effect, what conclusions he had reached on these points which he had recognised to be points of substance. If they were not points of substance, presumably he would not have taken them away for further consideration.
  Today I received a reply. I do not complain of the politeness of the language. The reply is that the pressures are such that I shall have to thumb my own way through the Notice Paper to find all the amendments and that, because of the pressures under which Ministers have been labouring, the right hon. Gentleman cannot give me any consideration on these points.
  One understands the pressure under which the Financial Secretary and the right hon. Gentleman are labouring, but is this a satisfactory way for us to conduct our business? Let me tell the Government Front Bench through you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, what the practical consequences of this have been and will be. The Chancellor, with the sneer which comes too readily to his lips in financial debates, said that a great number of amendments had been tabled late on Thursday night. I tabled some of them. I take full responsibility for that.

  1093
  5.45 p.m.
  I cannot have been the only hon. Gentleman who tabled amendments, but I tabled a great number of amendments. It took me a considerable time to work them out, with the assistance of expert eyes both inside and outside the House of Commons. Of those amendments, at least 20 were on points which we had considered in Standing Committee and which the Chief Secretary had said that he would take away and consider.
  Had the Chief Secretary given the close consideration to these matters which he should have given them, and had he and his hon. Friends allowed themselves reasonable time for the consideration of these admittedly abstruse matters, I might not have had to late table those 20 or 30 amendments.
  I make this point particularly to the Chair, because I hope that those amendments will be selected for debate, even though they were the subject of close-fought debates upstairs, because, as I have said, we had an assurance in Committee that they were worthy of consideration and that the right hon. Gentleman would take them away and consider them.
  Mr. Gow: It will be within the recollection of the House that my hon. and learned Friend said that he had a letter from the Chief Secretary complaining of the enormous pressures under which Treasury Ministers have been suffering. Does not my hon. and learned Friend agree that this is a further reason why the whole of Part III should be scrapped so that the intolerable pressure to which Treasury Ministers are being subjected can be relieved, if I may coin a phrase, at a stroke?
  Mr. Rees: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend. I am sure that he and I are actuated solely by concern for the good name of the House, for the profundity of our deliberations, and indeed for the sanity and good health of those on the Government Front Bench.
  Mr. Anthony Kershaw: On the contrary, if Ministers are under such very great pressure is it not very much in the interests of the House that that should be so? Nothing concentrates a man's mind so much as the thought that he might soon be hanged. As quite clearly Ministers have not been concentrating
  1094
  upon this matter up to now, would it not be much better that they now started to think about it and in that way sought to advance our deliberations to a far greater degree than they have done?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. If we have too many more interruptions like that something will happen to me, I think. We are at the very beginning of our deliberations and they are likely to be extensive. I hope that hon. Members will try to keep to the point.
  Mr. Kershaw: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I hope that that is not a hint that you will curtail in any way a thorough examination of the Bill.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I thought that the hon. Gentleman knew me better. I never give hints.
  Mr. Rees: At an earlier stage in my brief intervention I expressed concern from the Government Front Bench. I hope, with profound respect to the Chair, that I am allowed to express concern for you, too, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Naturally I shall do all that I can to preserve not only your health but your kindly interest and continued benevolence towards us as our debates proceed on this complex Bill.
  I return to the difficulties under which we have been labouring. By working under extreme pressure and drawing on such support as we could from those who have had the time and application outside the House to study our debates in Standing Committee, I was able to table a modest few amendments late on Thursday night. Those amendments were tabled before I had even had the opportunity of seeing the last of the new clauses tabled in the names of the Chancellor and his right hon. and hon. Friends. I have not yet had an opportunity of tabling any amendments to the new clauses. They deserve very close consideration. As others of my right hon. and hon. Friends have pointed out, there is the new clause on forestry.
  Mr. Adley: My hon. and learned Friend is absolutely right. This is the point. New Clause 15 has more than 50 signatories of members not only of the Conservative Party but also of the Liberal Party and the United Ulster Unionist Party. I am grateful to my hon. and

  1095
  learned Friend for raising this point and I hope that he will elaborate on it.
  Mr. Rees: I will leave it to my hon. Friend to deal with that point, about which I know that he is greatly concerned. He has a greater expertise than myself in these matters, though I press close behind him on the trail of that scent.
  I refer to the capital transfer tax. The Bill as amended in Committee was not published and available for us to read until Monday of last week. This is a very grave indictment of the way in which the Government are attempting to manipulate our business. By the most remorseless application some of us were able to get down amendments to the Bill as amended in Committee by Thursday night. I think that the sneers of the Chancellor came very ill on that point. Fortunately, we did not have his interventions in Standing Committee, otherwise, our deliberations would have been further extended because I have never yet heard a practical point of significance in a tax debate from the Chancellor. He is concerned merely with party prejudice and personal attacks. With great good sense, he left our Standing Committee debates to the Chief Secretary whose unfailing courtesy, charm and good humour I am happy to acknowledge. I only wish that his courtesy and charm had been matched by a greater consideration of the underlying issues in this Bill.
  If I may coin a very inelegant phrase, Part III of the Bill is a dog's breakfast. In coining that phrase—and I am conscious that it may grate a little on the sensibilities of the House—I am aware that I am doing a disservice to dog owners and dogs. Any dog owner who served a breakfast of this kind to his dog would very soon have the RSPCA after him.
  It is time that we had a society for the protection of taxpayers. In view of the very intemperate and ill-judged amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Luton, West (Mr. Sedgemore)—whom I am sorry not to see on the Government benches at the moment because from time to time he graced our debates in Committee—it may be that such a society would enjoy royal patronage. I believe that the Government owe it to themselves, to the House and to the general body of taxpayers to withdraw
  1096
  this odious Bill for more detailed consideration than we could possibly give it—even with your benevolence and good humour, Mr. Deputy Speaker—in the five days that have been allotted to us.
  Mr. Michael Morris: I rise to speak briefly because I had not intended to intervene in this debate. In the one year and a few days that I have been in this House I have never seem such a shambles. I am reminded by the intervention of an hon. Member opposite about the printing dispute, of the situation which we faced last summer. I had the privilege of serving on the Standing Committee which considered the Rent Bill. At that time we had to deal with many amendments which had to appear in manuscript form and were then copied by photostat and marshalled. I have to tell the Chief Secretary that his hon. Friend on the Government Front Bench on that occasion took considerably more trouble than has been taken on this occasion to meet the needs of hon. Members in debating this Bill.
  I was not on the Standing Committee of this Finance Bill although I did table one or two modest amendments. However, at 7.20 a.m. this morning I received by special delivery the bundle of papers which I hold in my hand. I have had the privilege of working for an American firm, and therefore I know what a working breakfast is, but to deal with over 100 pages of amendments is, I am sure, beyond the powers of any hon. Member in the time allowed.
  May I also suggest to the Chief Secretary that no one who has come to this House from local government would dare to try to drive this sort of legislation through our local authorities. All of us know that our first duty is to our constituents and to consult those people who are interested in this matter. I have had more correspondence about Part III of the Bill than about any other Bill since I have been in this House. How does the Chief Secretary expect me or any other Member who has received this bundle of amendments on a Monday morning to be able to consult those whom we wish to serve and then debate those amendments on Monday afternoon? I hope that I shall hear from the Chief Secretary or from the Chancellor of the

  1097
  Exchequer how I am to go about this. I do not believe that it is possible either physically or mentally.
  There is only one honourable course open to the Government, and that is to take back Part III of the Bill. The Chief Secretary would lose nothing by so doing. Indeed, he might gain in stature because he would show that he had listened to all quarters of the House. I hope very much, now that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has joined him, that he will take this point seriously. If he values the consideration of the people, he should chop this Bill so that in the next few days we may deal with Parts I, II and IV, and he should take Part III back and consider it anew.
  Mr. Douglas Crawford: The hon. Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Clark) brought a wry smile to my lips when he alluded to the difficulties of the Conservative Party and the paucity of their resources in order to comprehend what is in the Bill. How much greater are the difficulties of the two minor parties who do not have anything like the resources of the Conservative or Labour Parties. In addition, neither the SNP nor Plaid Cymru were represented on the Standing Committee, and in view of the contempt which the Government are showing to the House and to those parties in particular, I do not intend to join in this filibuster. All I would say is that the Government are giving short shrift not only to the House but also to Scotland and Wales on this issue.
  Rev. Ian Paisley: I remember very well, when I came into this House some years ago, the election of Mr. Speaker, who said that his duty was to protect the minority parties and the back benchers. It is quite evident today that Parliament has lost the respect of the country, because the ordinary Member of Parliament finds himself greatly frustrated when he comes to this House and discovers that it is well nigh impossible on many occasions to put the points on which his constituents continually lobby him. It is that sort of matter which I should like to discuss on the Floor of the House on Report.
  We back benchers have often listened to a dialogue between the two Front
  1098
  Benches. How many times have back benchers been frustrated as a result? Then when we come to important matters we find that because of the pressure of business in the House, Standing Committees have to deal with these issues and, as has been said by the hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. Crawford)—and I support him in his complaint—when the party to which he belongs is not even represented on the Standing Committee he has a legitimate grievance.
  We as United Unionists had one Member on the Committee, but it could very well have been that my hon. Friend the Member for Londonderry (Mr. Ross) would not have been selected to serve on that Committee, and then the wisdom from Ulster would not have been available to the Committee. We would have been in exactly the same position as the hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire.
  6.0 p.m.
  It is essential that the voice of protest should be raised by back benchers. I repudiate any suggestion that there has been an arrangement come to among back benchers to take part in what amounts to a filibuster. I am speaking as a back bencher on an important parliamentary principle.
  We shall not be able to discuss many matters arising on the Bill simply because of time, and there are matters of great significance which demand careful thought and debate. The danger now is that we shall have not only undigested legislation but indigestible legislation set before us. The Government should listen to what is being said. The Chief Secretary, whose praises have been sung by all hon. Members—he always has what we in Ulster would call an ideal bedside manner—ought to listen to the humble plea of those who have points of vital importance to put before the House.
  When the Bill passes into law, it will affect every citizen. All of us have been snowed under by representations. I passed on those which I received to my hon. Friend the Member for Londonderry so that he could speak of them in the Standing Committee—which, of course, he did—but there remain many matters which should be further discussed under your able guidance, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

  1099
  I urge the Chief Secretary, therefore, to listen not to the scoring of political points but to the genuine concern expressed by hon. Members on behalf of the people they represent. We must have reasonable opportunity for debate. Of course, there are hon. Members who want to defeat the Bill. That is why they are here, and they are entitled to do their best to that end within our procedures. But the Chief Secretary must think again about the way this matter is being handled and do all he can to ensure that back benchers are able to express in this Chamber the representations which have been made to them by their constituents.
  Mr. Peter Morrison: I suppose that we should be grateful to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Chief Secretary for putting the motion down. It is an attempt, they say, to bring some order out of chaos. But I cannot find it in me to be particularly grateful, since the moving of it does not get over the fact that the amendments were put down exceptionally late.
  It is all very well for the Leader of the House to talk about 165 hours in Committee. Many of us were not members of the Standing Committee, and in that sense we are not so lucky, being unable to understand these matters as readily, perhaps, as those who were on the Committee can understand them.
  I support my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe), therefore, in his plea that Part III be taken out and be considered at a later stage in more leisurely fashion. I support that plea especially because I represent a constituency with a myriad small businesses. It has within it an enormous number of owner-occupied shops, it has a lot of forest land, it has some farmers, and, what is more, it has a great number of buildings of historic interest. All these people and interests which go to make up my constituency are affected by Part III.
  Over the past four weeks, I have had a large number of letters from constituents about the Finance Bill, but since the amendments were published not one letter have I received because people have not had time to consult me, let alone time
  1100
  fully to understand what the Government amendments mean.
  The implications for my constituents are horrendous if Part III is retained, for the very nature of a great city such as the one I represent can be changed by the Government's proposed capital transfer tax. My constituency is part of our national heritage. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, I am sure, it has been chosen as one of the two cities to represent the United Kingdom in European Architectural Heritage Year. No one wishes to see such a city demolished by taxation ill conceived, not properly understood and certainly not fully thought out.
  There is, moreover, the vital matter of employment as it will be affected by the implications of Part III. Since so much of my consituency is, so to speak, owner-occupied, as the small business men, farmers and so on are put out of business—"So what?", some may say—unemployment will rise, and that is not a responsibility which I am prepared to accept on behalf of my constituents. If the Government do not reconsider Part III, it will be their responsibility when unemployment is caused.
  I hope, therefore, that the Government will come to their senses and recognise that they can easily remedy this situation by setting aside Part III for consideration at the right time in the proper way.
  Mr. Cormack: This may well be one of the most important debates we have in considering the Bill on Report.
  Mr. Brian Sedgemore: A filibuster?
  Mr. Cormack: The hon. Gentleman's intervention merely encourages me to make a long speech.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The last time I called the hon. Member, he spoke for 45 minutes, and I cannot forget it. I hope that he will not be tempted to do the same today.
  Mr. Cormack: I am not only tempted by the hon. Member for Luton, West, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but what you have said almost gives me a target at which I must aim.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Let us have peace on earth and good will. The hon. Gentleman, I know, will have meant that

  1101
  remark only in passing, and I hope that he will be as much to the point as usual.
  Mr. Cormack: Indeed, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I should never cast any aspersion on the Chair, and we are all delighted that you are in the Chair because you bring that nice light touch of good humour to our debates which is extremely helpful. It is important that we have that touch today because this is a serious debate, and, as I said a few moments ago, it is probably one of the most important debates that we shall have on the whole Bill.
  When the Chief Secretary moved the motion in such brief terms, he treated the House with gross contempt, for his proposal was that the House should consider during four days this week and on Monday of next week, without adequate preparation and without the material which all of us on both sides need, the most important and far-reaching piece of fiscal legislation to be produced since the war—and, arguably this century.
  The letter which my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dover and Deal (Mr. Rees) quoted from a few minutes ago made a chill run down my spine. That the Government should at one and the same time feel themselves both beleaguered and obliged is a sad commentary on the way they are seeking to conduct the nation's affairs. I say "beleaguered" because the Financial Secretary—I believe that his was the signature to the letter; my hon. and learned Friend will correct me if I am wrong—was saying that the Government were under enormous pressure, such pressure that they could not afford to my hon. and learned Friend, a most courteous man, the normal courtesies which any hon. Member has a right to expect.
  I was tempted to interrupt in a somewhat vulgar way and say that if the Government cannot stand the heat they should get out of the kitchen. But there the Government were, saying that they could not withstand the pressures. But, then, if they, this beleaguered Government, cannot withstand the pressures, why do they feel obliged to rush through this most revolutionary of tax changes without adequate consideration? The gravamen of our charge is that the Government are not giving proper consideration to this far-reaching tax revolution.
  1102
  I shall refer briefly to some of the people who will be affected by the tax. For the record, it is worth pointing out that the Government benches have been almost empty for the whole of our debate. Labour Members have just as many constituents whose lives are likely to be transformed by the worst effects of this tax as have my hon. Friends and myself. I am sure that the hon. Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mr. Dempsey) will confirm that in Scotland there have been an enormous number of representations about the effects of the capital transfer tax.
  A ready solution is open to the Government and has been explained repeatedly by many hon. Members. It is that they should take back Part III of the Bill and then we shall facilitate the passage of Parts I, II and IV. We have reasoned amendments which we wish to put on those other parts, but they can be debated and those remaining parts of the Bill enacted. The level of Government revenue will be slightly higher if Part III is dropped, as was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow). If the Government have a proper regard for the feelings of hon. Members, they cannot ignore the pleas that have been made this afternoon not only from the Conservative Party but by the hon. Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) and by the hon. Member for Perth and East Perthshire (Mr. Crawford). They both indicated just how important it is from the point of view of the minority parties that this far-reaching tax revolution should have proper consideration.
  There are two ways in which the Minister can satisfy the House this afternoon. One is for him to say that the debate has been entirely one-sided, that all the arguments have been powerful and overwhelming and that he accepts them. That would be an act of not uncharacteristic generosity on his part. If he wished to confer with the Chancellor, however, who has not been present for much of the debate, there is a solution in Standing Orders. Standing Order No. 27 provides that he can move the Adjournment of the House at the end of the debate so that his discussions may be furthered.
  It is essential that the tax should not be debated without adequate preparation. There were many points of order last

  1103
  Thursday and Friday and again today and although some of them might have been technically out of order and were properly ruled so by the Chair, the fact remains that the amendments were not available in time. They were not available in a proper form or in sufficient numbers for all hon. Members to take them home at the weekend. The least hon. Members should expect is the opportunity to take these documents home and discuss them with the various bodies most affected and with the individuals who have made representations about them to see whether they meet the objections that have been raised.
  6.15 p.m.
  In Committee many forceful pleas were made on behalf of agriculture, forestry, the national heritage and charities. In almost all cases they were put forward in a non-partisan spirit and they were received as such by the Chief Secretary and his colleagues. In almost every case they gave an undertaking to come back to the matter on Report. In some cases they have not done so, so far as one can see from studying the badly-assembled amendment paper. Where they have come back to the subjects raised they have tabled Amendments which are not readily understandable to many of the interests most closely affected.
  During the last few days hon. Members have received a vast number of documents from some of the representative bodies which are acutely worried at the direction which the CTT seems to be taking. One document was put out by the Country Landowners' Associations. Its president pointed out:
  "Having studied the debates in Standing Committee on the Finance Bill, I am writing to express my disappointment that apparently the Government still does not fully understand the serious impact Capital Transfer Tax will have on the future of agriculture".
  Lest the Minister should think this is special pleading on behalf of people who own thousands of rolling acres, let me read the fourth paragraph, which is the most significant. It says:
  "The point I particularly wish to deal with in this letter, which I am sending to all Members of Parliament, is the Government's refusal to extend to the tenanted half of the country's
  1104
  land the agricultural relief granted to owner-occupied land when transferred on death."
  There are thousands of tenant farmers—hill farmers in the North, fen farmers in the East and farmers in the Midlands where I come from—whose future is in jeopardly because of the tax. Surely the Government cannot intend these farmers—the backbone of British agriculture, men who have sunk their all into their farms and equipment and who have shown devotion and hard work of the highest order—to be dealt a death blow. That would appear to be the consequence of the Government's action.
  For further amplification of this point, one needs only to look at the documents sent out by the National Farmers' Union and the National Farmers' Union of Scotland. The NFU makes the point:
  "The union continues to maintain, despite the modifications to the Bill which have been proposed, that there are very real dangers inherent in the Government's capital taxation package and in so far as these taxes are likely to compromise the production of food in the UK, the dangers will not be confined merely to agriculture but will affect the nation as a whole."
  The document from the Scottish NFU takes up that point and raises several other significant factors on its own account.
  The fourth document is a letter from the Forestry Committee of Great Britain. I do not know whether it was sent to all hon. Members, but certainly a large number of us received it. It says:
  "The Report Stage of the Finance Bill starts on Monday. As you know, the Government have promised to table an Amendment relating to Forestry, but this has not yet been published."
  The letter was sent out last Wednesday and some of the Government's amendments on forestry have now been published. However, the point of the letter is as valid now as it was last Wednesday because we have not had an opportunity to discuss the Government's proposals with those whose lives and livelihoods are affected.
  I am not talking of the owners of vast estates making enormous and lucrative profits. These are figments of the imagination of Ministers on the Treasury Bench. I am thinking of the hundreds of forestry workers who lobbied the House six or eight weeks ago and who told us "Unless you do something to

  1105
  mitigate the effects of this tax we shall have to emigrate. The British forestry industry will be dead, and we shall have to leave the shores of this country." These people are still worried. They are still not confident that the Government's concessions go far enough, and, most important of all, they have not had an opportunity to discuss with hon. Members whether they do or do not.
  The hon. Member for Meriden (Mr. Tomlinson) laughs. He may think that this is funny and trivial, but I can assure him that for tens of thousands of ordinary workers in this country it is not trivial and not funny. To the ordinary agricultural and forestry worker it is a matter of vital concern.
  Mr. John Tomlinson: When he is reading out all these ghastly views, I should be grateful if the hon. Gentleman would also read out the views of the Union of Agricultural and Allied Workers on the proposals related to forestry, because it does not share his gloom and despondency.
  Mr. Cormack: The forestry workers strongly share these views, and have written to hon. Members in recent days along these lines. I had a letter some 10 days ago from Mr. Len Yull, who led the deputation to the House. In that letter he made this point.
  The hon. Gentleman prejudges the issue by saying "these ghastly views". We look across at the barren Government benches, the silent support and the silent majority backing up the iniquitous scheme of pillage and plunder proposed by the Chief Secretary. Somebody earlier referred to the smile on his face. Unless he accedes to the reasonable request made by many of my hon. Friends and myself I shall begin to think that it is the smile on the face of the tiger. The right hon. Gentleman has it within his power, after consultation with his colleagues and with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to bring a measure of relief and a feeling of confidence in the Government of this country.
  The right hon. Gentleman has only to say "We depart not one whit from our philosophy. We are still as determined as ever to bring in a capital transfer tax, but we take the point that there must be due and proper deliberation before that is brought in". All that the Opposition
  1106
  are saying is that this is a proper subject for a Select Committee. There is a Select Committee dealing with the question of the wealth tax. How sensible it would be for that Committee's terms of reference to be properly expanded and the capital transfer tax referred to it. Lest this be thought a silly point, it has been accepted by the right hon. Gentleman, because he has said that before some of the clauses affecting the national heritage are finally determined, the Government will wish to take into account the conclusions of the Select Committee on the wealth tax. If that point has been accepted by the Government, why can they not say "Let us put this tax to the Select Committee. Let the Select Committee, which is representative of all shades of opinion within the House, deliberate on this tax"? That is what we ask. We have a right to demand it, and the Government would be churlish in the extreme to refuse it.
  It cannot be said too often that this is the most revolutionary tax change of the century. If this tax is to be brought in, surely the Government are concerned about the efficiency with which it should be operated. Surely they do not wish to create a fiscal blunderbuss and blast everybody to high heaven.
  Mr. Gow: To hell.
  Mr. Cormack: Surely the Government are concerned about revenue. My hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow), with his vast knowledge of the subject, will immediately agree that the function of taxation is to raise revenue and not to change the structure of society—not to plunder, not to pillage, but to raise the necessary revenue.
  If the Government have decided that a capital transfer tax is a proper way to raise necessary revenue, fair enough, but let them give due thought and consideration before bringing that tax in. The House is not being given a proper opportunity this week. The motion, moved briefly by the right hon. Gentleman, brings no credit upon the Government or upon our parliamentary process.
  The many people who in a few weeks' time will have the benefit of hearing our deliberations broadcast, would be staggered, astounded and horrified in the extreme to think that Parliament was to devote at the most a day and a half or

  1107
  two days to the discussion of this tax. Whatever the Leader of the House says about the record time that this Bill may or may not have had in Committee, only a few Members had the right to debate it there. My hon. Friend the Member for Horsham and Crawley (Mr. Hordern) reminded us earlier that it used to be the practice for the Finance Bill to be taken on the Floor of the House. Would it were still so, because then we should all have the chance to subject to continual and detailed scrutiny the many enormities which the Government contemplate perpetrating upon the British people. That is not the practice, and the Bill having come downstairs, the right hon. Gentleman is now giving the House two days at the outside—according to the timetable that he has suggested—to discuss this revolutionary tax which affects constituents throughout the country, be they in Luton, Meriden, South-West Staffordshire, Shetland, Hereford, or anywhere else.
  People are affected by this tax, and their Members should have a right to talk about it. There should not be a gag upon Government supporters. They should be enabled to make their points either in favour of the tax or against it. They may make their points at party rallies, but they do not do so on the Floor of the House.
  I urge the right hon. Gentleman, for the last time, to earn himself a parliamentary accolade by accepting the force and the substance of our arguments and by deleting from this week's proceedings consideration of Part III of the Bill. Then the right hon. Gentleman will get his Bill, the country will be properly served, the Revenue will not be the poorer, the parliamentary tradition will be the richer, and the tax, when it is finally imposed, will have been thought out properly and understood properly. No one will be able to make the charge that the tax was steamrollered through, to the detriment of many thousands of the finest citizens of this country.
  Mr. John MacGregor: My hon. Friend the Member for the City of Chester (Mr. Morrison) said that he was not lucky enough to be on the Standing Committee. I am not sure that the phrase "lucky enough" was correct, bearing
  1108
  in mind the gruelling sessions we had. From the look on the faces of several other members of the Standing Committee when he used that phrase, I think that they tend to share my view.
  Because I was on the Standing Committee, I wish to speak not to the capital transfer tax as a whole but to one or two practical points. For many hours I have been engaged in discussion and debate with the Chief Secretary, sometimes combatively, but, I am sure he would agree, often reasonably and constructively. I should like to put to him some of the practical consequences of the timetable he is enforcing on us, especially the chaos which occurred at the end of last week and over the weekend.
  I knew when we finished our deliberations on the Standing Committee at 9.15 a.m. on 19th February, after two all-night sittings, that we would face a tight timetable. I have been appalled at the way it has developed and especially at the events over the past weekend, which are not entirely the responsibility of the Chief Secretary, but which have put many of us in an intolerable situation. I had arranged meetings in my constituency to discuss the amendments to the tax last weekend. Tenant farmers came to my constituency meetings and surgeries without my knowing what amendments the Government would put forward to some of the details. Those amendments had not yet appeared. I know that some amendments had appeared earlier in the week, but I was aware that there were probably still others to come.
  6.30 p.m.
  When I returned to London late on Saturday night, I found a copy of Friday's Hansard awaiting me, and I read the full text of the series of points of order that had been reported in Saturday's Press. I saw in column 996 that it had been said that members of the Finance Bill Committee were urgently—by special delivery—to receive copies of the amendments tabled up to that point at least.
  I live not very far from the House, but I am still awaiting those copies. It was not until today, when I arrived in the House after lunch, that I was able to take up this enormous wad. That pledge was not fulfilled. Nor were others that the Leader of the House made last Thursday, or we could have saved a

  1109
  great deal of time already. So we are forced into these debates without having had the chance even to study the amendments.
  I wish to spell out the difficulties of those of us who take a particular interest in the Bill and who, as the Chief Secretary knows, have been put in charge of debates on certain clauses and schedules and who have proposed many amendments. Perhaps I may remind him that, unlike Ministers, we do not have a staff to assist us in preparing amendments and preparing for debates. We have a few advisers, but they are part time and often difficult to get hold of, and it is frequently difficult to get hold of them at times when we are available. I trust that the right hon. Gentleman is not saying that we are wrong to have such advisers, because they have been proved invaluable time and again throughout Committee in improving the Bill.
  Also unlike the right hon. Gentleman's staff, the parliamentary draftsman, and the Treasury and Inland Revenue staff, as Members of Parliament we have other things to do. Thus, we find ourselves almost totally without assistance throughout this week. I shall have to attend the rest of the debates today because there are many amendments on which I wish to speak, as there will be later in the week. I shall therefore find it practically impossible even to study the amendments thrust upon us today, and certainly impossible to have the consultations necessary to draft amendments to some of the amendments. All Opposition Members will find it difficult to prepare our total case on many amendments that we have put down and that we hope to put down in the coming few days.
  In common with other hon. Members on the Standing Committee, I received a number of assurances from the Chief Secretary and the Financial Secretary on a number of amendments when they said that they would look at various matters that we had raised, and on those assurances we withdrew our amendments. I did my homework and I produced an enormous list of the areas where assurances were given. Perhaps I was not as assiduous as my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dover and Deal (Mr. Rees), and did not put down my whole shaft of amendments by Thursday
  1110
  evening, but the reason was that so far the Government had not produced anything. I was not even in the position of seeing what the Government's reaction was to their assurances in Committee, and, like my hon. Friends, I have received no letters from Treasury Ministers on this subject.
  I now find myself having no time properly to do the work necessary to put down my amendments, and that is disgraceful. Above all, I do not have time to consult outside interests, and here I am thinking not of the very small number of highly skilled advisers that we have but of those outside interests who, over the weeks when the Bill was in Committee, were constantly in touch with many of us, putting points of view that we thought utterly legitimate and that we expressed in Standing Committee. Very few of those outside bodies, individuals, and so on, have yet had time to come back to me with their reactions to the Government's amendments, and I find it difficult to know how I shall be able to discuss these matters with them.
  My constituents, these outside bodies, individuals, accountants, and so on, have written to us from all over the country, and they must find it beyond belief that we are pressed into this situation in which we are plunged into debate after debate without having had time to talk on them. I agree that this adds to the disillusionment with Parliament among sensible and moderate people outside the House.
  As the consequences of some aspects of the tax are felt outside—we all recognise that that point has not yet arrived—people will not believe the way in which this timetable has been thrust upon us at this late stage in what is virtually a new Bill, in view of the number of Government amendments. The procedures over the past few weeks since the Bill was published in December have been an object lesson to me on how Government legislation should not be brought forward, particularly legislation of this complexity.
  I agree with my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) that by far the best course would be to refer Part III to a Select Committee, or to take it back and reintroduce it in a later Finance Bill when we have time to deal with it adequately. I do not see why the totally indecent haste

  1111
  with which we are compelled to move this week is necessary for Part III, as I accept it to be necessary for some other provisions.
  If the Chief Secretary will not accept what I regard as this reasonable suggestion, which many people outside regard as reasonable, will he at the very least allow a break of one day in the middle of our debates this week—a break between Parts I, II and IV—so that we have time to study this shoal of amendments and engage in what will be admittedly compressed discussions with outside interests and put down amendments that we still know to be necessary, and so that at least some modest preparation may be made for the later stages of the Bill? I ask him to consider that sympathetically before we embark on Part III, so that those of us with particular interests in many aspects are allowed a decent interval in which to do our homework.
  Mr. Sedgemore: The debate began shortly after 4 o'clock, at which time the Opposition had planned to have about two hours of points of order and synthetic rage. Fortunately, Mr. Speaker, you intervened to stop that, and so we are now having a synthetic debate.
  Sir John Hall: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Member has made a statement that is completely and utterly untrue. No such arrangement has been made by any Opposition Member.
  Mr. Speaker: I am not sure how much I am really involved. Anyhow, Mr. Sedgemore.
  Mr. Sedgemore: You will be well aware, Mr. Speaker, of the farce that our proceedings generated on Thursday when there were so many points of order. Fortunately, today you intervened to stop it and we are all very grateful to you, and I am sure that at least my constituents will be grateful to you. Now we are to see the hours roll by while the Opposition undertake the same performance in another manner.
  There are 58,600 voters in Luton, West and I have had only one letter on capital transfer tax and I am sure that the other 58,599 voters in Luton, West are keen to
  1112
  see the Bill make progress and to see the Chancellor's motion voted on in the near or immediate future.
  Mr. Gow: Has it occurred to the hon. Member that the reason he has not received any letters from his constituents about capital transfer tax is that his constituents realise that there would be no purpose whatever in writing to him?
  Mr. Sedgemore: I am sure that my constituents realise that I am one of those who sat for between 135 and 136 hours in the Finance Bill Committee, anxious to improve the Bill, and that if they had proposals to improve the Bill they would have brought them to me, but most of them believe it to be an excellent Bill, and their concern, if anything, is that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Chief Secretary and the Financial Secretary, brilliant and able people as they are, made far too many concessions on this tax.
  Mr. Peter Rees: One always hears the hon. Member's contributions with relish. Would he tell the House just how many letters he has received from his constituents supporting the Bill, either in principle or in detail?
  Mr. Sedgemore: If I were to answer that question honestly the figure would be an exact equivalent of the number of people who have proposed changes in the Bill. I am bound to say that my GMC has fully endorsed the contents of the Bill and its only concern is that there have been certain amendments which have possibly opened up certain loopholes in the Bill. There is a serious point here. We should warn the Government that not only constituents but back benchers will be angry if there is any attempt to give way over these issues.
  We are witnessing a fairly skilful and moderately articulate filibuster by the Opposition. We are witnessing a deliberate attempt to kill the Bill and possibly an attempt to create a constitutional crisis over the Finance Bill, something we suspected during the Committee. It may be thought that to say that the Opposition are seeking to create a constitutional crisis and to kill the Finance Bill is putting it too high. There were rumblings that this was to happen during the 135 hours we were in Committee. This is a serious matter. At that time we did not

  1113
  take it too seriously because it only concerned the "Clockwork Oranges" on the Conservative back benches. It would appear that the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) and the Shadow Chancellor are joining in this peculiar activity by the Conservative back benchers. The country will take note if they seek to create that constitutional crisis. Perhaps the House will take note and will take certain drastic steps, something which is not usual during Report of a Finance Bill.
  I apologise for not being present at the beginning of the debate but I was attending a meeting of the Public Expenditure Committee which is examining the White Paper, which, if anything, is more complex and obscure than the capital transfer tax. It seems that we are not actually debating the Chancellor's motion about the order in which these clauses should be taken. This seems to be another Second Reading debate on the merits or demerits of the capital transfer tax. I do not intend to fall into that trap because I know that you, Mr. Speaker, would rule me out very quickly.
  Mr. Ioan Evans: Is it not a fact that the more time the House spends discussing this motion the less time it will have to discuss the capital transfer tax?
  Mr. Sedgemore: My hon. Friend expresses his point far more succinctly and adequately than I ever could. I hope that as the debate proceeds we shall not get, as we did in Committee, a lot of synthetic rage about farmers, worth £500,000, who have threadbare clothes and who never go on holiday. I hope that we are not going to hear about the plight of the Arab at the London Clinic or indeed about the plight of stallions who are supposed to breed fillies that can win the Derby.
  Mr. Hordern: The hon. Member is filibustering.
  Mr. Sedgemore: I hope that Opposition Members will keep to the point. As time goes by I am sure that they will come to love this tax—if only we can get it on to the statute book. The hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) said that he had come to love estate duty, a tax passed in 1894.
  1114
  To be fair, he said that was because he did not have to pay it.
  The Government are concerned that we should not have a repetition of the serious abuse of the procedures of this House that took place in Committee when we considered this tax.
  Mr. Tony Newton: I would ask the hon. Gentleman to consider what he is saying. I began to wonder at one point during the Committee whether he knew any other word than "filibuster". There were two occasions when he clearly accused us by this word. One was during the debate on charitable and public purposes, on which his right hon. and hon. Friends changed their minds last Friday, and the other was on the powers of the Inland Revenue under what was then Clause 15, on which they changed their minds at some other stage last week. To accuse us of filibustering when we have converted his right hon. Friends is rather stretching the argument.
  6.45 p.m.
  Mr. Sedgemore: I am sure the hon. Gentleman will realise that it is possible to make a serious point in a couple of sentences.
  Mr. Hordern: Do it.
  Mr. Sedgemore: The Treasury, in Committee, did not need constant and tedious repetition to understand the points that Conservative Members were making. If people like myself, with little knowledge of tax law or the effect of taxation changes, could pick up the points almost immediately, I am sure that hon. Members like the Chief Secretary picked them up even before they were uttered. I suspect that most of them were in his brief, where he was told to say "Resist, but, if you must, say you will have another look at it".
  Talking of filibustering, may I ask what was the purpose of trying to get rid of a modest little measure to enable the Government to look at the books of multinational companies which were systematically fiddling their transfer prices, profits and general prices to the public? That was a classic example of an 8½ hour filibuster from 4 o'clock to 12.30 p.m. The hon. Member for Braintree (Mr. Newton) knows that this is so because he participated in it. I am sure that the Government hope that we do not get

  1115
  caught up in the sort of things that happened in Committee. We found that much of the discussion was taken up with the junketings for the Tory leadership challenge—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. That is getting a little wide of the motion.
  Mr. Sedgemore: Conservative Members have complained that their experts will not have sufficient time to look at the clauses in the Bill. The right hon. Member for Finchley produced the finest team of tax dodge experts that this House, or any other small room in the world, has seen gathered together. They sat sniggering as one Conservative after another proposed amendments to create loopholes for tax avoidance and tax evasion. Naturally the Labour Front Bench does not wish to encourage either. I am quite sure that these tax dodge experts will be able to look at these amendments and come back tomorrow with another thousand loopholes that they will seek to create.
  It is not the timing that these people object to. They object to the fact that we have left Committee with the Bill—despite the concessions unnecessarily given away by the Government—remaining intact. That concerns Conservative Members and that is what their fury is about. It is not about another thousand amendments.
  When the Bill becomes law in a few weeks' time its fundamental provisions will still stand intact. It will be carrying out a fundamental pledge in the Labour Party's manifesto and will be an important move in seeking to bring about the fundamental and irreversible shift in wealth and power that we have been after. It is humbug, cant and hypocrisy, as well as degrading, for Conservative Members to seek to support the privileged few as they not only run scared but degrade themselves by encouraging hon. Gentlemen to come to this House and carry on with their rantings and ravings.
  Mr. Esmond Bulmer: If the hon. Member for Luton, West (Mr. Sedgemore) was accustomed to consulting his constituents he might understand why Conservative Members feel as angry as they do at the treatment which the
  1116
  Government have accorded us. We simply cannot do our job. A great many of our constituents are affected, whether in terms of their farms, businesses, pensions or employments by this measure and they deserve a hearing as well as the information on which to base their representations. The Government have denied them that. That is a point on which even Labour Members should want to express an opinion.
  It is a maxim in law that ignorance of the law is no defence. Have we not a duty to ensure that we do not legislate in ignorance? It is perfectly clear that ignorance characterises a great deal of what is said at present, partly through lack of understanding and partly through lack of information. Nothing brings this House into disrepute more than the passing of laws that are ill-considered and badly constructed.
  I make a final plea to the Chief Secretary. I imagine that he has not had much time to talk to the owners or management of businesses in his constituency. If he had, he might have found that there was legitimate concern about the employment prospects in his constituency, and other hon. Members opposite might share that concern if they thought about it. I had the chance last week to ask Mr. Scanlon whether he had been consulted about the capital transfer tax, whether he had studied its effects on employment, and whether, since so many of the family engineering companies which employ his members would have either to cut back on their investment or sell out, he thought it in the interests of his union that they should lose their jobs. The Chief Secretary will not be surprised to hear that he did not care to answer.
  It would be interesting to know to what extent the Treasury Bench has consulted the Department of Employment and has thought out the effects of this measure at a time when the employment figures give us great cause for concern. If he talks to the members of management, and particularly to people who own their businesses, he will find that, assaulted as they are by inflation, by taxes from every which way, by rates, and by the general lack of confidence, the CTT is for many of them the last straw, and that it strikes at the root of

  1117
  their businesses and their willingness to invest.
  I therefore join my hon. Friends in urging the Chief Secretary to think again about the capital transfer tax and to reconsider the motion.
  Mr. Lawson: I shall not unduly take up the time of the House in re-emphasising and echoing the points made so well by my hon. Friends about the devastating effects that the capital transfer tax will have on family businesses and farms and the intolerable position in which they have been put as a result of not having sufficient time to consider the Government's amendments on the tax and the Government's new clauses and the vast amount of legislation being put before the House.
  Unlike the hon. Member for Luton, West (Mr. Sedgemore), I have been inundated by telegrams from family businesses and small firms in Leicester and the Leicester area in which family and small businesses are particularly prevalent. Up to now it has been a prosperous area, and the unemployment cycle has been far less damaging because employment has been maintained in the small businesses whereas it has not been maintained in the big businesses in the West Midlands. The East Midlands has a far better labour and industrial relations record, which is not unconnected with the fact that there there are more small and family businesses and a better spirit in industry than there are in the industry of the neighbouring West Midlands. People have been showering me with telegrams and they have sent many letters to me. They are terrified, with good reason, of the devastating effects which the tax will have on their businesses. They wonder what is the point of carrying on.
  We were told on Friday of a promise by the Government that at least Members who served on the Committee would receive over the weekend copies of the Government amendments so that we could deal with them. I was a member of the Committee, but I received no copies of the amendments by special delivery or by post either at my home in the constituency or at my London home. It has, therefore, been impossible for me to table the amendments that I wished to table.
  1118
  It is clear that we need, not only more time between Committee and Report, but more time on Report than the five days which the Government have allotted. The Leader of the House, when taxed on this matter on a number of occasions, said that by providing five days the Government were giving more time for Report than was given for Report of any Finance Bill since 1909. I was glad that today, under pressure from me, he withdrew that remark. I accept that his error was made in good faith and that he had no intention of misleading the House.
  On the Finance Bill in 1965 there were 16 days in Committee and five days on Report. On this Bill, which is infinitely more complex and more far-reaching—in the words of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it is the most important for over a generation—there were only 12 days in Committee, and only five days have been given for Report. That is less time than was given to the 1965 Bill. I therefore hope that the Chief Secretary and the Chancellor of the Exchequer will reconsider the question of the time that they are giving on Report.
  One way of dealing with the matter would be to defer the tax to the next Budget. As my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) said, that is, in a sense, what has already been done with Clause 39—or Clause 36 as it was in the Bill as originally printed. I spent a long time on Friday morning waiting for the Government's amendments to Clause 39. In Committee we were told that a large number of amendments to Clause 39 would be tabled on Report. By late Friday lunchtime nothing had been tabled by the Government. I had the good fortune to meet the Chief Secretary and he told me that the Government would not table any amendments; they had not the time to table them. That shows the situation into which the Government have got themselves. They have tabled one amendment which means that Clause 39 will not come into effect till 5th April 1976. The amendments which have been promised will come in the next Finance Bill.
  Mr. Ridley: Would it not be a good idea if the Government tabled amendments to every clause and said that the provisions would not come into effect till

  1119
  5th April 1976? The Government would be happy because it would be their chosen method of dealing with the Bill, we would be happy, and the country would be happy.
  Mr. Lawson: My hon. Friend has arrived at the conclusion to which I was about to come. That would be the logical thing to do. The amendments could be tabled and discussed on the next Finance Bill, which is due all too soon. That would be one of many possible ways of dealing with the Bill.
  Why have the Government got themselves into this absurd position in which major legislation is being given wholly inadequate time and discussion? The reason is the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act which imposes the deadline of 14th March by which the Bill must receive the Royal Assent. Therefore, everything must be telescoped to meet that deadline. That is absurd.
  The Provisional Collection of Taxes Act was introduced in April 1913 by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Lloyd George, because it had been discovered, as a result of a court case, that it was illegal to collect taxes on the basis of Budget Resolutions. The Act was introduced with considerable thought. It was decided that there should be three months in which the Government would have to get the Finance Bill enacted and on the statute book to enable them legally to collect taxes and not have to refund them.
  In Committee on the 1913 Bill the question arose whether new taxes should be included. They were originally, but it was suggested that perhaps new taxes should not be included. That was fully discussed, and new taxes were taken out of the ambit of the Bill. That has remained the law to this day. The Provisional Collection of Taxes Act does not affect new taxes. By tacking on the capital transfer tax to the rest of the Finance Bill the Government are creating a difficulty which is entirely of their own making for the rest of the Finance Bill.
  7.0 p.m.
  We do not wish the Government's economic management—to give it a title more dignified than it deserves—to be made more difficult through the deadline
  1120
  of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act in so far as it concerns Parts I, II and IV of the Bill. We have no wish to cause any problems of that kind. We do not wish the revenues from petrol, VAT, and so on, to have to be refunded. That difficulty is being created by the Government's tacking on to the normal Finance Bill—normal except for the season of the year—the new taxes in Part III with which the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act has nothing to do. A positive decision was taken not to include new taxes within its ambit.
  Since 1913 the three months which was originally given to allow Governments to get their Finance Bills on the statute book has been amended to four months. If the Government feel it is essential to break up what the hon. Member for Luton, West referred to as a constitutional crisis there is no reason why they should not bring in a further Bill to amend the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act to give them five months instead of four. If we had a further month we could have full discussions.
  The Government are putting a pistol at our heads and saying that the House should not give proper consideration to this radical tax reform and that outside interests which are affected by the Bill to the extent of financial life or death should not be given the opportunity for adequate discussion, just because of a phoney deadline round which there are innumerable ways, which have been referred to by my right hon. and hon. Friends, and which the Government refuse to take. That is an improper way to treat the House and an improper way to treat important business and agricultural interests which depend on the House for fair dealing.
  Mr. David Howell: The short debate has made crystal clear that while the Opposition have no wish to cause unnecessary delay we have nothing but disgust and contempt for the shambles into which the Government and Treasury Ministers, to their misfortune, have reduced this legislation. I underscore what my right hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mr. Page) said when he reminded us of what had gone on in Standing Committee A. He said that in Committee there was no delay. We achieved the very rushed timetable that

  1121
  the Chief Secretary required. We had to skate over several complicated clauses and schedules. We had to deal with issues of outstanding importance at absurd hours of the night and early morning. But we co-operated, we kept to the schedule which the Chief Secretary wished, and we came through on the timetable he wished.
  We did that despite the lack of ministerial briefs, which often led to delays and difficulties on the Treasury Bench. We did that when it was patently clear, on several occasions, that Ministers had not been briefed and did not understand the measures or the amendments they were putting forward. At times we had an abstract painting kind of debate, when ideas were sketched in the air and we were asked to amend thoughts in the Minister's mind.
  All this we did in the charming company of the hon. Member for Luton, West (Mr. Sedgemore), who by his contribution today, has shown to all hon. Members who were not in Standing Committee A exactly what we had to put up with, and why there were delays and difficulties upstairs which were not of our making.
  Much has been said about so-called concessions, and the enormous number of Government amendments that have been put down. They are not concessions. For the most part, they are corrections. "Concessions" is a misnomer. They are changes to make possible what the Government desire, wrong though we believe that to be, and there are a great many of those changes. I do not know the latest tally, but there are between 180 and 200 Government amendments. They are not just one-line amendments, they are pages of print. In addition to the changes and new clauses incorporated in the reprinted Bill, those amendments add up to a new Bill. The basis of the objection of many of us is that we are starting out on a new Bill, dealing with new principles.
  It is not true to say that the amendments relating to woodlands and charities are concessions. The basic principle, enunciated with much glee when the Bill first came forward, which was that there was to be similar treatment in life and death, went out of the window in Committee, and we have the concept of life
  1122
  time transfers, which create a new principle and, in effect, a new Bill.
  Throughout, my right hon and hon. Friends and I did our best to help the Government with their corrections. The existence of our own financial advisers was kindly recognised by Ministers on the Treasury Bench, and our own official advisers in helping us did a good job. That was a remarkable constitutional development. In his memoirs, Dick Crossman, in his generous way, bemoaned the fact that the Opposition would never be able to compete with Ministers because Ministers had wonderful advisers. If he had lived and seen our work in Committee he would have realised that he had it the wrong way round. Opposition Members and their advisers were able to contribute substantially to corrections of the vast output of Government amendments which are the remarkable feature of the new Bill before us, which we feel we must have proper time to study and prepare amendments for.
  There is no difficulty in what it has been proposed that the Government should do. The recommittal procedure is open to them, and it is set out on page 529 of Erskine May. At the end of the proceedings before the Third Reading all the Government have to do is to move for a recommittal of Part III of the Bill There is no procedural difficulty in that and there would be many benefits for the Government if they followed that course.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson) is right in saying that in trying to use the strong arm of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act the Government are on a dangerous course. They are abusing and not using that Act. According to the debate on 7th April 1913, the Act was brought in specifically not for the use of new taxes. It was never intended that vast new measures of major implication—measures which, in the Chancellor's words, are the most fundamental tax measures since the war, should be hooked into this procedural device and rammed through Parliament on the ground that if the Government's timetable is not achieved the whole business of tax collection will be thrown out of gear. That is abusing the procedure of the Act, which was never intended for that purpose. The Government know that, and they should feel a sense of guilt,

  1123
  if that is within their competence, for trying to do it.
  The Opposition do not wish to delay proper discussion of the new Bill before us and, strongly though they rightly feel, I shall not advise my hon. Friends to press to a Division the motion, which sets out a more welcome procedure than would have been the case if the Government had had it entirely their own way.
  The heart of the matter is that the Government, by their efforts and by trying to rush through the capital transfer tax to please the proponents of the social contract, or what is left of it, have made the Chief Secretary and the Financial Secretary—the two Laurel and Hardy centre-pieces of the whole affair—look like a pair of Charlies. They have been made to look a pair of Charlies by their colleagues, and one's feelings are mixed between sorrow for them that they have been put in this position and, nevertheless, the feeling that if only they had any sense in their heads they would not have allowed the Committee, this House, the Government or the Bill to get into this crazy state.
  It may be that we should shed no tears for the Chief Secretary and the Financial Secretary. Perhaps they can live with the fact that they have become, through their incompetence, the laughing stock of most informed circles concerned with tax legislation and probably the laughing stock of a wider audience as it becomes known what an absurd situation they have put us into. But what is more serious is that what they have done is bad for Parliament, bad for the country, bad for our legislative procedures, bad for the Civil Service machine and bad for the morale of our administrative structure. That is of lasting damage, and it is a talisman or an indicator of the incompetence of this Government and of those who put forward this legislation. It justifies completely our very strong feelings that this measure should be unstitched and that the capital transfer tax should be taken away so that it may be examined in a proper, dignified civilised way as becomes legislation of this kind. Those are the feelings of the Opposition on this matter.
  Mr. Joel Barnett: With the leave of the House, first I wish to thank all those
  1124
  hon. Members who expressed kind sympathies for me and for my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary. They are much appreciated.
  My right hon. Friends and I understand this tax only too well, and we understand very well that the Opposition, including the Front Bench and those hon. Members who served on the Standing Committee, also understand the tax very well. Indeed, that is the reason why we have had this display today.
  As has been made clear, the Opposition do not wish to give serious examination to the tax. That is not their intention. Their intention, as the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) made clear, is to remove the capital transfer tax from the Bill.
  Judging from the debate which has gone on since four o'clock, it is difficult to believe that the motion which I moved was tabled with the agreement of the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East. It is hardly possible for anyone to imagine that that was the case. Yet that is what happened. I agreed that the motion should be tabled precisely to give the House the opportunity more easily and in more time to consider the clauses of the Bill dealing with the capital transfer tax. However, that was never the intention of the Opposition. If they had genuinely and seriously wanted on behalf of their constituents to consider amendments to the CTT, they would have started to do so promptly at four o'clock. I remind the House that the Government have made provision for five days on Report. Apart from one or two occasions, that is well in excess of anything that has ever happened on a Finance Bill.
  The right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East said that this capital transfer tax had not been debated fully. The right hon. and learned Gentleman did not have the pleasure, if that is the correct word, of sitting upstairs with us in Committee. The amount of time that was taken to consider non-capital transfer tax clauses could well have been saved in order to debate the CTT more fully—[Hon. Members: "No."] Hon. Members who say "No" should read the Official Report of the Committee proceedings or should have been upstairs in Committee when we debated these matters.

  1125
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman asked when we were likely to debate the capital transfer tax. He and his hon. Friends have made it clear that they have no wish to get to that debate. They do not need to apologise for that. They have made their position clear, and the right hon. and learned Gentleman repeated it on radio this morning. They want to remove the tax from the Bill. They do not want seriously to consider amendments to it.
  As for the amendments themselves, when were they available? All Government new clauses, the single Government new schedule and the great majority of Government amendments on the CTT were put down on or before Wednesday 26th February—
  Mr. Lawson: Were they printed?
  Mr. Barnett: Yes. They were printed and appeared on the Notice Paper on Thursday. With the motion that we are debating now, that gave ample time to hon. Members to consider amendments—
  Sir G. Howe: What the right hon. Gentleman is now saying seems wholly to miss the point of almost everything said from the Opposition Benches during this debate. It is not a matter of allowing hon. Members to skim through documents and then to advance such arguments as they can put together Amendments tabled on Thursday for consideration in the depth which they require by many people outside this House cannot receive consideration within the time scale of this week or even next week. That is the point which the right hon. Gentleman apparently fails to grasp.
  7.15 p.m.
  Mr. Barnett: When I discussed with the right hon. and learned Gentleman tabling this motion, most of the Government's new clauses and amendments were printed and on the Notice Paper. They were printed on Thursday.
  Mr. Ridley: It is not only the case that the Opposition would like to consult the interests concerned. It is also the case that the Government should consult those interests. What consultation has the Chief Secretary had with the historic buildings councils, the Forestry Commission or any of the other bodies
  1126
  affected in a major way by the amendments?
  Mr. Barnett: I shall be happy to tell the hon. Gentleman that and much more if and when we reach the CTT clauses. I shall be happy to discuss those matters when we come to them. I cannot help feeling that we have not been debating this motion. It has been more a debate about the CTT itself.
  It was said that my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary and I promised to consider a number of amendments. We did that. Where appropriate, new clauses and amendments have been tabled. In other cases it was decided that amendments were not appropriate, were not necessary or were not justified. That is another matter on which I shall be happy to expand when we come to deal with the appropriate clauses.
  It must be clear to any reasonably objective observer of our debates in Committee and on the Floor of the House that what has happened is that the Opposition have sought constantly to distort and delay as a political ploy. There is no question about it. We have been told that there is an intolerable situation here. There is. The Opposition's deliberate political ploy has been to ensure that people outside have gained a totally false impression of this tax.
  I must make it clear to my right hon. and hon. Friends, in case anyone has any fears about it, that we have no intention of withdrawing the CTT clauses. This is an excellent tax. The Opposition have spoken against the CTT, but they have not said a word about the tax which it replaces—the tax which the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) said with great glee that he liked and which the Opposition would like to remain on the statute book. They liked it because it was so readily avoidable by the small minority whom the Opposition seek to defend. The very people who are shouting loudest about the CTT are those who never paid estate duty. Under the CTT those who paid estate duty will be considerably better off—widows, widowers, small shopkeepers and small traders whom the Opposition purport to represent. Those small shopkeepers and small traders will be very much better off under the CTT than ever they were under estate duty. Let them read the Bill.
  Mr. Lawson rose—
  Mr. Barnett: No. I do not know how hon. Gentlemen opposite propose to conduct the debate, but let me tell them that the new schedule will ensure that genuine woodland owners are protected but those who have sought to avoid tax under estate duty by the purchase of forests and woodlands, that tiny minority, will be hurt, and I do not apologise for that. That is the kind of person whom Conservative Members have been seeking to defend.
  The same goes for trusts which were used largely for tax avoidance purposes. To a large extent, trusts were used for avoidance purposes. What we are doing under the CTT is to ensure that those who want genuine trusts will be neither better nor worse off. Under estate duty they were considerably better off than the vast majority of ordinary taxpayers who paid their taxes properly.
  I note the Opposition's pressure on behalf of this tiny privileged minority. My hon. Friends will note it, as will people outside the House. I assure the Opposition that we have no intention of accepting their suggestion to remove CTT from the Bill, because it will be to the advantage of the vast majority of ordinary people.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Ordered,
  That the Finance Bill, as amended, be considered in the following order, namely new clauses not relating to capital transfer tax or estate duty, amendments relating to Clauses 1 to 18 and 50 to 56 and to Schedules 1 to 3 and 12, new clauses relating to capital transfer tax or estate duty, amendments relating to Clauses 19 to 49, new schedules and amendments relating to Schedules 4 to 11.

  FINANCE BILL
    Clause 1

      VAT: EIGHT PER CENT. RATE
      Mr. Speaker: I have selected the manuscript amendment in the name of the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe).
      Sir G. Howe: I beg to move as a manuscript amendment, in page 1, line 16, leave out Clause 1.
      The amendment relates to the entire contents of the clause, and I wish to begin by explaining what it does not seek
      1128
      to do before turning to some matters of importance with which the House would like to deal.
      First, what we are not seeking to do is to increase VAT from 8 per cent. to 10 per cent. That is neither the effect nor the intention of the amendment. Indeed, if the amendment were carried, the 8 per cent. rate provided for by order laid by the Chancellor of the Exchequer last July would continue in force until next July, and other arrangements could no doubt be made to deal with it thereafter. We are not proposing any given rate in place of that now in force at 8 per cent. The purpose of the amendment is to afford the House an opportunity to have a short but important debate on several issues related to the general condition of the economy.
      It is a long time since we had a general economic debate, and unless there is to be a debate on the public expenditure White Paper—which we should welcome—there may be no opportunity of a debate of this kind before the next Budget is introduced. Admittedly the frequency of Budgets under this Government gives the prospect of almost quarterly events of that kind, and almost continuous consideration of Finance Bills—we do not welcome that—but we feel that we should have this opportunity for this kind of debate.
      I wish to deal with two specific matters, and one more general. I propose, first, to say something about the prospect of a multirate VAT which is exercising the mind of many people. Secondly, I propose to say something about the methods of enforcement and collection of VAT which is exercising the minds of perhaps many more people. Thirdly, I propose to say something about matters of more general economic policy in the light of the issues dealt with in the clause.
      I come first to the question of multirate VAT. I know that this was discussed quite shortly in Standing Committee, but it is important that we should return to it on the Floor of the House at this stage, if only for a few minutes. The fact is that VAT as originally conceived was designed specifically to avoid the complications which would inevitably flow from the introduction of differing rates for that single tax. It is also the fact that documents have been circulating for some months suggesting that it is the intention of the Government to move over to a multirate system. The prospect of

      1129
      such a change causes anguish, dismay and horror in the hearts of the many small and medium-sized businesses which are responsible for collecting VAT.
      A huge and growing burden of administration has been placed upon such businesses. Their lot is being made more and not less difficult by what the Government are proposing about national insurance contributions from the self-employed. Many of them are in that position, and we hope we can obtain from the Government an assurance that the added horror of multirate VAT is not in prospect.
      The problem is that the Department of Customs and Excise has issued a notice—No. 727—describing proposals which may be necessary to meet
      "the need to prepare for additional rates of VAT"
      and this has been the subject of representations to many Conservative Members and, I am sure, to Labour Members, too.
      These people, who are working long hours, devote a lot of time to the complicated accountancy consequences of VAT anyway, and they can carry out the additional task of collecting multirate VAT only if they extend the hours of work they put in outside their normal working hours. This is a prospect which fills them with horror, and I hope the Government can give an assurance that these documents are not even a ballon d'essai, not even an academic exercise, but some random activity quite unrelated to the intentions of the Government. I hope they will give us an assurance that there is no prospect of multirate VAT.
      The activities which have been reported by a number of hon. Members and criticised by others concern inspectors of Customs and Excise responsible for the enforcement and collection of VAT. I want to make my statement with care. I recognise that an important and difficult duty rests upon people with responsibility for the enforcement and collection of that tax. I have seen a letter in The Times today from the Assistant General Secretary of the Society of Civil Servants quite rightly pointing out that the inspectors have a duty to the law-abiding majority to ensure that the tax-evading minority do not sponge upon the community for their personal illegal profit, and I do not
      1130
      quarrel with that proposition. The task of Customs and Excise will become more difficult if we move to the multirate system, which is another argument against it.
      I do not wish to line up the Opposition with the minority of those who are seeking to evade the payment of taxes, nor to line ourselves up with those who regard exceptional misdeeds by inspectors and enforcement officers as characteristic of the entire group of such people, but, even so, there is here cause for concern if even a fraction of the matters being reported should turn out to be true. I hope that the Minister will deal with these points.
      I know that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has received a long and detailed letter from my hon. Friend the Member for Barkston Ash (Mr. Alison), who will be able to speak for himself on the detailed aspects of the matter, but the cause for concern that emerges from that story and from some others is the suggestion that the investigators visited the premises concerned and apparently under powers to inspect the premises and any goods found there proceeded further than that and were conducting a search of the premises without any warrant allowing them to do so.
      If that were the case, it is not only an example of the kind of complaint that is made but represents a serious matter about which people are entitled to be concerned, because the Act clearly draws attention to the distinction between the right under Section 37(2) to inspect goods found on the premises, and the right under Section 37(3) to search premises. It seems clear from the account given by the taxpayer in that case that the VAT inspectors were searching the premises without warrant and confiscating private property. If that single example is true it justifies wider concern than arises from that case, and I hope very much that we shall be told exactly what the Government are doing about this matter. There is anxiety lest a habit should be commencing, let alone developing, of high-handed, overbearing, insensitive or unjustified conduct.
      It is most important for those concerned in this important duty to remember that they are not dealing with a minority of hard-bitten evaders of

      1131
      Customs and Excise duties. They are having to deal potentially with many citizens who are drawn into the network of tax collection. Many citizens are acting to the best of their ability as collectors of revenue. It would be dangerous if that large army of people, upon whom the Revenue depends for the collection of the tax, were to be disconcerted by reports of this kind of behaviour. It is important that the Government should take this opportunity to allay anxiety on this matter. Widespread anxiety certainly exists, and it is not completely without justification.
      7.30 p.m.
      My third point is of a more general kind and relates to the levels of VAT with which we are concerned. Is it right for the Chancellor now to propose consolidating the change in level effected last July? As I understand the position from what was said in Standing Committee, the highest rate hereafter attainable by use of the regulator becomes 9·6 per cent. That puts beyond reach of the Chancellor the arithmetical simplicity of the original pristine proposal of 10 per cent. I wonder whether it is right or sensible, for purely technical and arithmetical reasons of that kind, to consolidate in the way proposed?
      There is a more fundamental point relating to the pattern of progress, so far as it may be described as progress, of the Government's battle against inflation. We have seen in the last week that the Chancellor has been receiving advice from both the General Council of the TUC and from the CBI. It must be acknowledged that he has received conflicting advice about the appropriate level of demand at which to aim in making his Budget judgment. There is no doubt that as he approaches his Budget judgment the Chancellor must be concerned—indeed, he has said that he is—about the overriding need to reduce the public sector borrowing requirement. It seeems probable that if import controls are to be avoided—that is surely desirable—and if inflationary wage settlements are to be moderated without resorting to a statutory policy—that seems equally desirable—the judgment of the CBI on the appropriate level of demand at which to aim is more likely to be
      1132
      correct than that of the TUC. I say nothing firmer than that at the moment, but that seems to be the right assessment to make at this stage.
      If that is so, the Chancellor is unlikely to have room for making cuts in taxation. He is equally unlikely to have room for increasing public spending still further. Indeed, that is the last thing that any of us would want. If he is to follow the line foreshadowed in his last Budget statement last November, and if he finds that the social contract, so called, is not having the desired effect in moderating the level of wage inflation, he is more likely to be impelled in the direction of higher rather than lower taxes. That, again, is the background against which we must consider the wisdom of consolidating in the way proposed in the clause.
      It is also probable, if taxes have to be increased, that the Chancellor should fight hard to avoid increases in direct taxation, especially in so far as those increases might fall on middle or higher managerial incomes and on the incomes of people who are not parties to the social contract. They are the people who have been harshly affected by inflation, by the combination of inflation with fiscal drag and by the effective reduction of the levels at which they begin paying higher direct taxes.
      It is against that background that we would say, if an increase in taxation turns out to be desirable, that it is more likely to be desirable in the direction of indirect rather than of direct taxes. These are all speculative judgments at this point, but the background does not suggest that it is right to consolidate the VAT level in the direction of a lower central point at which the regulator should operate.
      I close on a more general matter. We have all read with interest the reports of speeches made before and during the weekend by several of the right hon. Gentleman's colleagues. We have read with interest what the Secretary of State for Education and Science said. He apparently asserted in writing, if not orally referring to "every individual trade unionist", that
      "the contract was agreed by his trade unionist delegates in his name".

      1133
      He then said:
      "The Government have kept their share of the bargain. The trade unions must not welsh on their side."
      Later he said:
      "Every member of the TUC General Council should stump the country in support of the social contract. … Every individual trade unionist must accept his personal share of responsibility."
      To me as an innocent, reading that report in the newspapers on Saturday morning, I thought that the right hon. Gentleman was saying something little different from what had been said on the same evening by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and little different from what had been said by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and by the Secretary of State for the Environment in previous weeks. There seemed nothing miraculous on which to comment except the courage of the Secretary of State for Education and Science in joining the ranks of those asserting that wisdom. Then, towards the close of Saturday, the Secretary of State for Employment asserted:
      "It is economic illiteracy for anyone to talk as though the wage problem is the only problem and that other parts of the social contract are irrelevant."
      He strongly repudiated the use of the term "welsh". He said:
      "The term is offensive and should never have been used."
      The situation became more interesting. There was clearly a difference in emphasis between the speeches being made by the two right hon. Members. The disturbing feature appears, when it is reported in the way in which these matters are reported, that the Prime Minister is bearing down upon the hapless Secretary of State for Education and Science. If that is the case—we should like to know very much whether it is—it is a deeply disturbing development. A Minister is discredited by one of his colleagues following the total collapse of Cabinet collective responsibility. He is apparently thought guilty of economic illiteracy. It might be argued that he was asserting unarguable centralist policy already put forward by the Government. On 30th January when answering a Question in the House he said:
      "The success of the Government's counter-inflation policy depends above all on the effective working of the social contract."
      1134
      He goes on to say:
      "75 per cent. of the working people covered by settlements … are within those guidelines. 25 per cent. are outside those guidelines, and I have said that that proportion is far too high."—[Official Report, 30th January 1975; Vol. 885, c. 597–8.]
      The ordinary observer must conclude that the Secretary of State for Education and Science was doing his best to interpret in a slightly different style of language—
      Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Myer Galpern): Order. I am afraid that the right hon. and learned Gentleman will have to indicate to the Chair how he relates this topic to the amendment under discussion.
      Sir G. Howe: Indeed, there is a direct relevance. The important matter is the way in which the Chancellor is proposing to conduct the basis on which VAT should be imposed. Is he to proceed in the direction indicated by his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment or in the direction indicated by his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science? That is a relevant and important point.
      I would have thought that the Secretary of State for Education and Science was far from guilty of economic illiteracy in reasserting what the Chancellor had said. It is important to know the answer to this conflict in considering the Chancellor's reaction to the amendment. Does the Chancellor agree with the Secretary of State for Employment? Does he agree with the Prime Minister that that which is going on, which he condemned in his oral Answer of 30th January, does not amount to a reneging of the social contract? Does he agree that there is no welshing upon the social contract?
      Alternatively, does he agree with himself, with his own assertions, that 25 per cent. of settlements outside the contract is too many? Where does the Chancellor stand? He can state his position clearly in response to the amendment against the background that I have tried to sketch.
      His answer to that set of questions is not merely an answer to matters of idle curiosity, because this Government—Heaven help us—are charged with responsibility for this nation's policy to

      1135
      defeat inflation, and not merely for the people of our country within our boundaries but in relation to the outside world. It is deeply disturbing for the people of this country to think, as they must in the light of this weekend's events, that there are divided counsels within the Government about the extent to which the defeat of inflation is overriding.
      It is equally disturbing for us to think that people observing this country from outside might be wondering where the Government's emphasis is being placed. Is it being placed, as some of us have been hoping, along the lines indicated by the Chancellor since last autumn, or is it slipping away into the miasmic uncertainties indicated by the Secretary of State for Employment? We must know. The answer to that question has a serious impact upon the credibility, consistency and commitment of the Government's policy on this vital question.
      My last point follows from that. Where are we to believe that the Government are taking the conventions of our constitution? Dealing high-handedly, as they are today, with the right and opportunity of Parliament to survey this kind of legislation, what are they doing with the doctrine of collective Cabinet responsibility? We have all been brought up to think that a Government are chosen from this assembly to hammer out coherent and consistent policies on which they are agreed. We have seen that proposition slipping away as the Government fumble in their approach to the European referendum, but to find it happening on this central question of how to defeat inflation is deeply disturbing. It erodes still further the limited degree of confidence that we in the House and the people of this country can still have in the Government's capacity to cope with the central problem. I hope that the Minister will give us some answers to those questions, which give us some anxiety about the degree of chaos which prevails in the Government's counsels.
      Mr. Hordern: I am very glad that the Secretary of State for Employment is in the Chamber because the remarks of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) in trying to sort out Government policy referred particularly to him. [HON.
      1136
      MEMBERS: "He has gone."] I see that the right hon. Gentleman has made a very quick exit. That will not help us to interpret Government policy, which is very difficult for anyone to interpret.
      No one would accuse the Secretary of State for Employment of illiteracy, but, equally, neither the House nor the country would think of him as one of the economic savants of our time. His pronouncements about incomes policy, while always welcome, have put the Government's economic strategy in some doubt.
      I had thought that the Secretary of State for Education and Science had been speaking very much in support of what the Chancellor, and sometimes the Prime Minister, had been saying earlier. Indeed, in his most recent speeches, the Chancellor has been placing great emphasise on the need to secure wage awards which are allegedly within the social contract. The clear implication of his recent statements, that many settlements are outside the contract, is that measures will have to be taken in the forthcoming Budget to correct the situation.
      What the Secretary of State for Employment is saying—only this can be implicit in his criticising the Secretary of State for Education and Science so heavily—is that the situation is all right as it is and that no further corrective measures are required in the Budget. That is one point that the Paymaster-General should seek to make clear. It is difficult for us to understand the position of the Cabinet on collective responsibility. Whether on the EEC or economic control, it seems to be a question of the Ayes to the right, the Noes to the left.
      7.45 p.m.
      My right hon. and learned Friend referred to the VAT inspectors. Some astonishing cases have been reported recently in the Press. If accurately reported, they would appear to go quite outside the legislation. As one who opposed the legislation from the Government side at the time, I think that the Government owe us a statement about the powers of the inspectors and what they propose to do about any actions outside those powers.

      1137
      The amendment in my name was designed simply to secure the kind of economic debate that we have regularly on the regulator. It is interesting to recall the position just under a year ago, on 22nd July, when the Chancellor reduced VAT from 10 per cent. to 8 per cent. He said:
      "The first and main objective of the proposals I shall now describe is to attack inflation at its source. The General Council of the TUC has recently issued guidelines for collective bargaining which have been welcomed on both sides of the House. Those guidelines envisage that pay will rise in line with the cost of living."—[Official Report, 22nd July, 1974; Vol. 877, c. 1048.]
      That does not seem to be happening at the moment. Indeed, the miners' pay award was far above any increase attributable to the rise in the cost of living. I understand that earnings are rising at an annual rate of 30 per cent. and prices by only 20 per cent. Of course, the miners are not the only ones in the queue. According to this morning's Press, the electricity supply workers will be going for an increase of 34 per cent., on top of their average earnings of over £50 a week, to put themselves more or less in line with the miners. I do not know how that squares with the social contract.
      In its economic submissions to the Chancellor the TUC has said that the economy needs to be stimulated by a further £975 million. The right hon. Gentleman should tell us the Government's thinking. After all, they are in no position to say that the evidence is not available. In his Budget Statement last March the Chancellor was able to make an assessment. Like all his recent assessments, it was not particularly accurate, but I hope that the Paymaster-General will say how the Government view the situation.
      So on one side of the social contract, which appears to be the Government's only weapon, there is a rate of increase vastly in excess of the cost of living, which is not what the Chancellor said in July was his strategy. On the other side, one would have expected some diminution in the number of strikes, but, on the contrary, from last April to December, 8¼ million days were lost through strikes, as against 4·9 million in the period April-December 1973. Therefore, neither side of the social contract—
      1138
      not in the number of strikes or days lost through strike action, not in the rate of increase in pay settlements, not, at least, in inflation—has appeared to have had any success at all.
      Inflation is the matter with which we are primarily concerned. It is now plainly out of control. Whether it is earnings or prices, or however one cares to look at inflation, we are in an extremely serious competitive situation. There was a time last year when in both Italy and Japan the rate of inflation was rising rather faster than it is here, but the fact is that inflation in Britain is now rising faster than it is in any other major industrial Power. This is serious enough. I hope that the Paymaster-General will announce what the Government's thinking is on these matters.
      One matter, however, on which I hope he will comment is the borrowing requirement of the Government at present. Last July, when the Government announced their measures and the Chancellor made his proposals, I think that the House was surprised to find how large the borrowing requirement had become. So far as we know, the borrowing requirement is now no more than £6,400 million, but present estimates from outside commentators are that it must by now have reached £8,000 million. That sum represents no less than 10 per cent. of the whole of our gross domestic product. It is right that the Government should make some statement about the size of the borrowing requirement. After all, this figure and the money supply figures are given regularly in the United States so that people there know the position. If the borrowing requirement is anything like that sum, I do not believe that we can look at it with anything but alarm, in particular its implication in relation to inflation.
      We have also to consider business opinion at present. The Financial Times produced a table only this morning giving its monthly survey of business opinion. Since the figures were first recorded there has never been such a large number of less optimistic forecasts than at present. Some 43 per cent. are now less optimistic about their future. That is a very high figure. There is also a record downward trend for new orders. The trend of recent orders is sharply

      1139
      down. Some 34 per cent. of the respondents say that they are working below target capacity, and 50 per cent. expect their investment to decline.
      That, therefore, is the position in which business stands today. The measures that the Chancellor may bring forward in his forthcoming Budget must surely deal with the position in which business and industry find themselves today and the extraordinary loss of confidence which they have shown in the Government.
      The position is doubly serious because our trade figures show that we are becoming less competitive as a nation. Although our prices have risen so rapidly in recent months that our export figures have been rather good, nevertheless the improvements in our export figures have largely come about because of the increase in the price of the products which we have exported, but the volume of increase is still very largely to be found in imports, and not exports. Taken over the three-month period the trend is of a very disturbing character indeed. The present position is very serious. The Government should now make some statement about it.
      It is not a good point to talk about the reserves, which are now low enough, in all conscience, or to say that part of our deficit can be discounted because it derives from the import of oil. To use that argument would suggest that we have never imported oil previously. The fact that we have now a large petroleum deficit should not be regarded as a matter of comfort at all. Most other countries have managed to get their petroleum deficit out of the way altogether. Japan has done so; Germany has been in substantial credit; and the French are now in credit as well. I believe that only the United States has anything like the sort of deficit that we have and, as a proportion of the United States' gross domestic product, their deficit is very small indeed. Therefore, we should not make that sort of excuse about the size of our deficit being caused by imports of oil.
      We ought also to take on board one other matter. The Government have, happily, been able to borrow quite significant sums, but whether such sums will continue to be available is not certain. One reads in the Press nowadays that
      1140
      even countries such as Iran and Kuwait are beginning to find that they have spent rather too much of their oil revenue, and they may not be in a position to lend such vast sums in future. That is another matter which the Government must bear closely in mind.
      I do not recall a situation quite so serious as the one in which this country is at present. We are so very dependent on foreign borrowing and so utterly without hope of being able to borrow what is required for Government expenditure at home. The only similar occurrence I can find was one mentioned in The Times on 27th February. It is a very unhappy comparison indeed that was made by Peter Jay with the German position in the 1920s. In talking about that, the article states:
      "It was noted at the time that 'once the (budget) deficit has become the dominating feature of the situation and has reached a figure of many millions, all saving of small amounts (of Government spending) seems useless … the financial administration is possessed by a spirit of dissipation and neglect'. It was also found that the Central Bank had to lend directly to industry to overcome their cash-flow problems in the face of rocketing nominal interest rates (up to 30 per cent. a day). In the early stages of the German inflation waves came to be linked to the cost of living index. But, as this could only be produced weekly, they were later linked to the (reciprocal of the) plummeting exchange rate and later still to a forecast of what the rate would be by the time the wages could be spent."
      There are very many disturbing similarities between the position of the United Kingdom and that of Germany in the early 1920s. It is incumbent upon the Paymaster-General to give a fair and lengthy account—if not lengthy, very full—of the present position of the economy, so that we can judge whether we should carry the amendment to omit Clause 1.
      Mr. Gow: I was one of the 30 hon. Members on the Opposition side of the House who, on 24th July last, voted against the measures introduced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. In particular, I opposed then the reduction in the rate of VAT from 10 per cent. to 8 per cent. I thought at the time that that would inevitably increase the amount of the Government's borrowing requirement. It was also a reduction in taxation introduced purely for electioneering purposes. Nothing which has happened since

      1141
      then has made me think that the judgment formed by some of my hon. Friends at the time was in error.
      For my part, I believe that it would be right for the Government at this stage to increase VAT from 8 per cent. to 10 per cent. The fact that such a move would be unpopular seems to me to be almost certainly a strong point in its favour.
      I want to follow up the remarks made by my hon. Friend the Member for Horsham and Crawley (Mr. Hordern) about the level of the borrowing requirement. In his Budget Statement of 12th November, the Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted that the figure then of £6,300 million of borrowing requirement was, to use his own words, "disturbingly large". There is every reason to believe that the amount of that borrowing requirement, which in November was viewed by the Chancellor himself as depressingly large, has increased dramatically in the three intervening months.
      8.0 p.m.
      One of the dangers in the present situation is that even the astronomic sums which the Government are borrowing, mainly from Oriental potentates, is being used, not to finance capital investment, but to bolster up spending by the British people far beyond what they and the Government can afford. We are living in a world far divorced from harsh economic reality. The Paymaster-General should explain to the House to what extent the public sector borrowing requirement has increased since the figure of £6,300 million was stated on 12th November.
      When the Chancellor introduced his July measures he said that he was proposing to attack inflation at its source. If he was being consistent he would, on his own doctrine, reduce the rate of value-added tax still further.
      The debate enables us to offer the Government advice on their general economic policy. The advice I offer the Government is that the next Budget must effect a genuine and substantial reduction in public expenditure and, regrettably, a genuine and substantial increase in taxation. The increase in taxation should be an increase in taxation on spending and on consumption and not still further on personal incomes.
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      Britain is slipping dangerously towards economic ruin. It is a ruin which is being presided over by Treasury Ministers. National solvency and national self-respect require that there should be a rapid move towards a balanced Budget. I hope that the Paymaster-General will tell us that that is what we shall have.
      Mr. Graham Page: I want to pursue two points raised by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe)—first, the question of a multirate VAT and, secondly the question of enforcement of VAT.
      All right hon. and hon. Members will have received correspondence, particularly from small shopkeepers, expressing horror at the thought of having to administer a multirate VAT. This horror has arisen because of the receipt of many of them of a Customs and Excise directive which is obviously a preliminary to the introduction of such a type of VAT. I do not know whether this directive was authorised by the Chancellor or whether it was sent out on the initiative of the Customs and Excise officials, but it is the type of directive or circular which should not be sent to the ordinary small trader, who has sufficient anxiety already trying to administer, and indeed, collect taxes for the Government.
      I hope that we shall get a repudiation of the circular and an assurance to small shopkeepers particularly that a multirate VAT is not in contemplation and that they will not be asked to embark on further complicated administration of tax matters in the course of their normal business.
      As to enforcement, there is anxiety about the powers of Customs and Excise officials. This anxiety has arisen particularly in the last few days because of the case raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Barkston Ash (Mr. Alison) of the antique shop in Selby, Yorkshire, which Customs and Excise officials entered and where for two and a half hours they pestered the mother of the lady proprietor, the proprietor herself being ill. The officials then spent five hours searching the shop in the presence of the proprietor who, I repeat, was a sick woman. They searched articles, including her wastepaper basket, private stationery, handbag and personal diary. Their questioning reduced her to tears at

      1143
      one stage and an inspector told her to stop snivelling.
      The powers of enforcement that are embodied in Section 37 of the Finance Act 1972 certainly do not empower inspectors to behave in that manner. Section 37(1) provides that any
      "authorised person may at any reasonable time enter premises used in connection with the carrying on of a business".
      That merely authorises entry into premises.
      Section 37(2) authorises any person who
      "has reasonable cause to believe that any premises are used in connection with the supply of goods under taxable supplies"
      to
      "enter and inspect those premises and inspect any goods found on them".
      Section 37(3) allows the authorised person to enter if he has a warrant to search. That is the only time that inspectors can search in the way that the inspectors searched in the Selby case.
      When the Financial Secretary was questioned about this matter he referred only to Section 37(1) and endeavoured to assure the House that VAT officers have no power to enter a trader's home as such. The hon. Gentleman refrained from mentioning subsection (2) which in its very terms allows an inspector to enter a trader's home if he has
      "reasonable cause to believe that"
      on those premises are goods under taxable supplies. So an inspector need only say" I have reasonable cause to believe that there are such goods in the trader's home."
      Is it necessary to have such a power to enforce a tax of this sort? If it is necessary to infringe upon rights of privacy to this extent, we should think seriously about whether the tax is a proper one. However, it is not necessary to do that, because Section 37(3) gives the authorised person all the powers of search provided that he obtains a warrant from a justice of the peace. This is the protection for the public.
      I appreciate that the Finance Act 1972 was passed at a time when I was a Minster in the Conservative Government, but this is now proving a wrong power to be given to inspectors when they are looking into VAT matters. They have proper power if they obtain a warrant to search
      1144
      from a justice of the peace. That empowers them to enter if they have reasonable cause to believe that someone is dodging the tax.
      I hold no brief for those who want to dodge the tax. If the power to enter and search is being used as it was at the antique shop in Selby, we must amend Section 37 so that inspectors have the power to enter only if they have obtained a warrant from a justice of the peace first.
      Mr. A. G. F. Hall-Davis: I, too, should like to say a word about the prospect of the introduction of multirate VAT and a little about the general approach to the economy by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
      At one stage of my business career outside the House of Commons I had the good fortune to work for a man who was a master at figures. He taught me one motto which I have had firmly in my mind ever since: whenever you can, keep it simple. That applies to rules for busines, for administration and, above all, for taxation.
      I believe that VAT has already reached the limits of complexity that can be sustained and operated by many of our smaller traders. The choice that confronts the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he is considering whether to introduce a multi-rate VAT, I genuinely believe, is whether to drive out of business many small shopkeepers and traders who render a very good service to the community. This would be particularly serious in smaller communities and rural areas.
      There has been a remarkable number of closures of shops in areas of that sort in the last year or two. An example is the disappearance of the sub-post office. In parts of my constituency it is now very difficult to get anybody to operate a sub-post office at all. This is the result of a combination of the complexities of Post Office administration and the fact that the supporting activities are encumbered with VAT.
      I believe there is considerable resentment on the part of traders that they are operating an unpaid service in the collection of tax quite outside what one might call the normal course of duty. I Exchequer, and I know the amount of raised substantial revenues for the have been engaged in an industry which

      1145
      work involved. One-hundredth or perhaps one-thousandth of the effort per £1 of revenue raised had to be put in by firms in my industry compared with the effort required from the small trader in the collection of VAT. On those grounds alone there are very strong reasons for keeping VAT simple, and on a simple tax rate.
      On the local and what the Chancellor might regard as the minor issue, I think that the concern caused by the action of some members of the VAT inspectorate is so great that it warrants a clear statement from the Treasury of the inspectors' powers and of the instructions that have been issued about their use. This is not a small matter. It is one of the fundamental liberties of the subject in this country that he shall be free from harassment by officials, and to let a different situation develop without protest would be a retrograde step. I hope that members of the inspectorate will be well briefed before they descend on traders.
      I have in my constituency an owner of a small residential seaside hotel who was cross-examined by a member of the inspectorate because the percentage of his catering takings expended on food purchases was, as the inspector put it, much higher than is the case in London. This, to me, showed such an abysmal ignorance of the subject on which he was questioning that he should have been told to learn the subject or not make a fool of himself by asking such ridiculous questions.
      8.15 p.m.
      I turn to something much more fundamental—the economic argument against introducing a multirate VAT. Despite the existence of rampant inflation, it is a fact that we are in the severest recession that we have experienced since 1945. It is much graver than the present unemployment figures would indicate. Whereas in former times there have been periods when unemployment has risen because of a shake-out of labour by employers, if I may put it in that way, or because of a dramatic increase in productivity which had not been expected by the Chancellor, the exact opposite is the case today. The true level of unemployment is disguised for the time being—but only for the time being—by short-time working and by the curtailment of overtime.
      1146
      I believe that we have all the classic conditions of recession present in this country and that they will develop during the next 12 months. In those circumstancees, to single out certain goods and industries for a sharp increase in tax, for perhaps the doubling or trebling of VAT—for one would not imagine that the Chancellor would introduce a multirate for an extra 2 per cent. or 3 per cent. on VAT—will be a leap in the dark, and it may well destroy industries whose continued existence is desirable.
      I ask the right hon. Gentleman to look back at the experience of the consumer durable industry in this country since 1945, under the treatment that was accorded it by Chancellor, I regret to say, of all parties, but mainly of the Labour Party, with the arbitrary and quite disgraceful changes in the purchase tax rate. I have no doubt that the reason that the British market is a gold mine for foreign manufacturers, and particularly some European manufacturers with an industrial base broadly similar to our own, is that it was made quite impossible to operate an efficient consumer durable industry because of the leaps and slashes—but particularly the leaps—of purchase tax rates on those commodities.
      I query the whole basis of thinking on the part of the Government in imposing such heavy taxation on petrol and the motor industry. I know that when the price of one commodity is apparently at the root of one's balance of payments difficulties, it is very easy to say that we must restrict the use of that commodity, but the purpose, of course, is to get the balance of trade on to a more favourable basis. Surely one should at least discuss with a reasonably open mind whether it is right to hit so hard at motoring or whether it would not be more sensible to apply a more broad-brush treatment by curtailing expenditure right across the field of spending.
      I say this to the right hon. Gentleman because, day by day, evidence comes to me that for many people motoring really is a necessity of life. It is very easy to be censorious and to pass value judgments on these things. I do not smoke. I believe that people who smoke are throwing their money away and damaging their health, but I do not expect that they will take much notice of me and I do not expect that I shall achieve

      1147
      much of a reduction in the level of smoking.
      One could say that there is plenty of scope for a reduction in the use of petrol, but for many families a car is today regarded as a necessity, certainly for travelling to work. It can be just as much a factor in people's minds when considering whether to press for wage increases as, for instance, the cost of the foodstuffs which the Government have subsidised.
      I shall not take up the time of the House in discussing the subject in detail, but as petrol prices have been raised by the imposition of VAT, and as we are discussing general demand management, I must point out that, if the Government wish to pursue their apparent present intention not only of placing no limit on the price or of not offsetting the increased import prices of petrol by, perhaps, some reduction in internal taxation, but of adding to them as well, they must make out a case for so doing, and they ought to give their judgment on the question whether they believe that there will be a major shift in the economy in the amount of resources devoted, over a long period, to the motor industry.
      If there is to be such a shift, it is worthy of discussion, just as we have in the past discussed the contraction of, say, the textile industry or the coal industry over the years, as well as the position of other industries which have found their historic place fundamentally changing.
      I hope, therefore, that we shall have a statement on the VAT inspectorate and the instructions given to inspectors. Secondly, I hope that the Chancellor will draw back from the brink of a multirate VAT. Thirdly, I hope that he will at least do us the intellectual compliment of making, in more detail than hitherto, his case for imposing so much of the additional burden on the private motorist instead of curtailing expenditure by more general tax increases.
      Mrs. Elaine Kellett-Bowman: I have been greatly troubled by two matters on which many constituents have made representations to me. The first concerns not only the general position of all shopkeepers under a multirate VAT but, in particular, the position of
      1148
      pharmacists. It is extremely difficult nowadays to find trained pharmacists. Someone dealing with ordinary goods in an ordinary shop, if his time is limited, may ask his wife to take a hand or get an unskilled person to help. A pharmacist cannot do that. He must be present throughout the hours of dispensing, frequently including Saturdays and Sundays, and he must be on call. If the pharmacist, as the most skilled person in the shop, has to be on call for that purpose, he cannot devote his time to filling in the exceedingly complicated VAT forms which will flood in upon him if we have a multirate VAT.
      I greatly fear that a large number of small pharmacies will close as a result In an area such as the one I represent, pharmacies are already closing all too readily, and it would be a disaster if more were to do so. But such is the burden of work of filling in the forms during their spare time that pharmacists are rapidly reaching the point of no return. I beg the Minister to assure people that he will not take this particularly damaging road.
      I come now to the tax on petrol. In my constituency we already have an unemployment rate of 5·8 per cent.—worse than in many development areas, and still rising. My constituents are most reluctant to go on to unemployment benefit, and they will take jobs miles away in order to keep themselves employed. With petrol tax at the rate it is about to reach, this puts a catastrophic drain on their resources. Many of them would be far better off unemployed, but they refuse to be so, and, with the petrol tax rising as it is, and as is proposed, there is great hardship in a country area where people have to go, 40, 50 or 60 miles a day in travelling to work, especially without such costs being allowed against income tax—which would at least help somewhat.
      I put those two matters to the Chancellor because I know from the many hundreds of letters which I have received that they are causing grave anxiety.
      Mr. Ian Stewart: I hope that the House will permit me, after some of the more technical comments on the application of value added tax, to turn for a moment to a subject raised by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe), namely,

      1149
      the Government's general economic strategy as it is implied by a proposal of this kind to reduce the rate of value added tax.
      It is ironic that, with the economic situation as it was towards the end of last year, we had a Budget the main immediate monetary effects of which, in taxation terms, were, on the one hand, in the case of VAT, to reduce the level of revenue and, on the other, with the relief in relation to stock values for companies, at the same time to transfer some benefit there.
      It was difficult at that time to assess the Budget and economic strategy lying behind those decisions, especially at a stage when we were anxious about the Government's deficit increasing by an unknown amount, but uncomfortably rapidly.
      Will the Paymaster-General make some comment, therefore, on the suspension last week of any restriction or restraints on the money supply in the banking system? I ask that because it seems to me that the relationship of the various weapons in a Government's armoury for controlling the economy is both delicate and difficult, and it is important for the House and the country, and for the financial community in particular, to understand the Government's intentions in this case.
      The abandonment of restraints on the money supply could have come for three reasons. It could be because the growth of the money supply has been so low that restraints are no longer considered necessary. It could be that the Government expect that the requirements for lending in the banking and monetary system will be so great that the present restraints would be unduly onerous and, therefore, it is better to remove them to permit a substantial increase in the money supply during the coming year. Third, it could be that the Government are unconcerned about the future of the money supply. Each of those possibilities raises serious questions about which the House should be informed at an early stage in a debate of this kind.
      Experience since restraints were applied has been that about one half of the permitted increase in the growth of the money supply took place in 1974 and
      1150
      there is, therefore, substantial slack within the banking system. If the restraints have been removed in anticipation of a large increase in the money supply, it should be understood by hon. Members that an increase of about 25 per cent. could be contained if the present system were merely to be continued. I hope, therefore, that it is not for that reason that the restraints have been removed.
      If the restraints have been removed because the growth in the money supply has been so low and the Government feel that such restraints are therefore no longer needed, the implication seems to be that the recession which we are entering is likely to be deeper and longer than many of us have already come to fear.
      If, however, the restraints have been removed because the Government are unconcerned at the prospect for the money supply in the coming year, they should note that there is a strong psychological impact in whether there are or are not restraints applicable at any time.
      As we view with concern and anxiety the increased Budget deficit, as we hear an apparent diversity of voices within the Government about restraint of inflation through control of incomes by voluntary or other means, and as we discuss a Budget which permits a growing deficit on the current account, there is an urgent need for an explanation from the Government of their motive in removing these restraints.
      8.30 p.m.
      Mr. Mayhew: I should like briefly to support what was said by many of my hon. Friends, in particular my right hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mr. Page) and my hon. Friends the Members for Morecambe and Lonsdale (Mr. Hall-Davis) and Lancaster (Mrs. Kellett-Bowman), about the possibility of a multirate VAT. The debate gives us a welcome opportunity to explore to what extent the Government have at heart the interests of retailers, particularly shopkeepers, upon whom they rely so heavily to collect so much Government revenue.
      Do the Government have the faintest idea of the sheer administrative burden they place on the shoulders of retailers? Do they know the work which has to be done and the time it takes, the wages it costs and the leisure time that it claims?

      1151
      Do Treasury Ministers understand the increasing burden of the other administrative work that the Government impose upon this class of Government agent? Collecting VAT is not the only task. That has to be done at the same time that retailers administer PAYE, national insurance and graduated pension contributions, the butter and beef coupon schemes for old-age pensioners, the requirements of the new prices legislation, and so on.
      All of this is done without compensation and, so far as I have been able to discover, without any thanks. The only compensation has been the imposition of an extra 8 per cent. in the national insurance contributions of the self-employed. It is not surprising, therefore, that the possibility of a multirate VAT has been greeted by retailers with horror. The smaller the business the greater the burden that it will impose. I referred only to the possibility of multirate VAT because when pressed in Standing Committee the Financial Secretary refused to give any assurance that it would not be introduced at an early date.
      A VAT circular has given an added weight to these fears, and we are now at a stage when shopkeepers are actually admitting defeat under the weight of the administrative burden cast upon them. I know that a great deal of my argument has been outlined already in the debate and I hesitate to repeat it. I shall not do so at any length. The difficulty about the procedure under which we operate is that until a Minister replies we have no idea whether our arguments have sunk in or not. It is rather like making submissions in court to a completely silent judge which, fortunately, is a rare experience.
      I take the opportunity to emphasise once again the urgent necessity of not increasing the burden of Government administration on the retailers. Value added tax is a tool which government nowadays may use in the management of the economy. I believe that my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Mr. Gow) was right when he said that VAT should be increased to 10 per cent. and that it should not be used as a means of forgoing income but should be used as a tool for increasing revenue. In whatever direction VAT is moved its movement
      1152
      should be uniform and not variable. I trust that although an assurance to that effect was not forthcoming in Committee on 23rd January it will be given to the House tonight.
      Mr. Peter Rees: I congratulate my right hon. and hon Friends who put down the amendment on giving us the opportunity to explore some of the darker areas of VAT. Recently we have heard disturbing things about the administration of VAT which reinforce the conclusion many of us must have reached that the Customs and Excise over-armed itself with power under Section 37 of the Finance Act 1972. I remind the Paymaster-General, because he was not privileged to take part in our debates upstairs, that this section was often cited to us as a precedent for Clause 17 and Schedule 4 of the Bill. If it was a precedent, it was a very ominous one. The charms of Section 37 are not enhanced because it happened to be introduced by a Conservative administration. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not advance that rather threadbare argument in support of anything that may have happened.
      One appreciates the difficulties which the Customs and Excise has encountered with the introduction of a new and fairly complex tax. I know, because I meet many of them in my constituency, that individual members of Customs and Excise are people of integrity with a stern sense of duty. However, they collectively sometimes manage to convey the impression to the people with whom they have to deal over VAT that they are still hunting the 18th-century smuggler.
      It is crucial that they should appear to have a tender feeling for the susceptibilities of traders and small shopkeepers with whom they have to deal, people who often cannot afford an elaborate accounting department. Some kind of mutual respect should develop between traders and shopkeepers and the Customs and Excise. It must develop from a realisation by the Customs and Excise of the intricacies of the businesses with which it has to deal.
      Over the weekend a pharmacist in my constituency told me that the representatives of the Customs and Excise who had visited her appeared unaware that

      1153
      people in her line of business carried considerably greater stocks at the beginning of the winter than at the end or in the summer. The Customs and Excise representatives gave her the impression that they suspected, because her stocks were low in the summer, that there had been a failure to make proper returns for VAT purposes. It may be that she was given the wrong impression, but that could have been avoided by a slightly more sensitive handling of the situation and by a deeper knowledge on the part of the Customs and Excise of the businesses with which it has to deal.
      As I am prone to repeat in debates on the Bill, there is a contract between Government and taxpayer. I do not want to be tempted into probing more deeply that rather threadbare object, the social contract. I hope that, with the assistance of the Secretary of State for the Home Department, the Secretary of State for Employment, the Secretary of State for Education and Science and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, we shall be able to determine with rather more precision at a later stage who has welshed on whom and exactly what the social contract now amounts to. On that matter there is an interesting amendment to Clause 16 which I hope will be selected for debate.
      I revert to the implied contract between the Government and those who collect VAT on their behalf. There is a growing feeling of resentment in businesses that they have to act as unpaid and unregarded tax gatherers. As my hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster (Mrs. Kellett-Bowman) has so perceptively remarked, this bears especially hard on small businesses where there may be only one person or only one person with special qualifications.
      I have in mind, as did my hon. Friend, the business of pharmacy, where there may be only one person with the right qualifications. I know from first-hand knowledge how much such people, who are highly qualified, grudge having to spend their valuable time on preparing the VAT returns. I know that their patience—and they are not alone in this—would be driven beyond endurance if, as we have reason to suspect, the Chancellor of the Exchequer introduced multiple rates for VAT in his next Budget. I
      1154
      believe that VAT is tolerable, and then only barely tolerable, if we have one rate, disregarding the zero rate. I hope that the Paymaster-General will be able to allay the widespread fears and suspicions that have been generated by the notice recently issued by the Commissioners of Customs and Excise.
      In conclusion, I should like to go to the more general economic questions raised by several of my hon. and right hon. Friends. There is the question of how far and in what way the Government should meet the deficit for which they have obviously budgeted. I happen to believe that one of the most ill-judged of the many ill-judged measures of this Chancellor was the cut from 10 per cent. to 8 per cent. in the rate of VAT in July. I believe that it was designed as no more than a crude bribe to the electorate. I also believe that it was intended as the basis of a highly dishonest projection of inflation rates.
      I believe that this Chancellor has damaged beyond repair his own credibility. We shall remember against him, and we shall quote against him in our economic debates so long as he holds his present important and honourable office, his projection in July of inflation running at 8¼ per cent. It may be that he will never recover his credibility, and from a national point of view that would be a great pity, but he may in some measure redeem his reputation and lack of judgment. He can do it if he is minded to put up taxation in his next Budget as I believe he will be obliged to do, by resisting the stern puritan calls that so often evoke a response from Labour Members, to introduce sumptuary rates of VAT; secondly, by resisting any further rise in direct personal taxation, because our present rates, by far the highest in Western Europe, have reached the level where they are practically self-defeating; and, finally, if it be necessary, and I believe that it will be, by raising VAT from 8 per cent. to 10 per cent. so that we are at last back to our position of July last year.
      Mr. Fairbairn: One of the phenomena of modern fiscal life is that, as a member of the public, the shopkeeper is compelled for part of the time of his ordinary life to become a servant of the Government, a publican as it is called in the

      1155
      Testament, although not necessarily a sinner, although apparently judged by Customs and Excise to be both publican and sinner. An increasingly large number of officially employed civil servants are required to check on the activities of those many millions of citizens of simple education who indulge in the industry of shopkeeping. As the burden increases, it is far too much to ask of a citizen who runs a shop of any kind in a small town that he should be involved in the absurd mathematics of VAT.
      I remember someone asking the question "How do you take 2 per cent. off the price of a Mars bar?" A variation in the rate of VAT involves ordinary people in absurd mathematics, and I trust that the Paymaster-General will heed that and will tell his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer that differential rates of VAT would be catastrophic for those who run a sweet shop, or a pharmacy, or a grocery.
      8.45 p.m.
      One of the absurdities of decimalisation is that it has made us count on a bad system. I understand that it was one of the brainchildren of the Secretary of State for Industry. He is probably responsible for more idiotic proposals for which the Labour Party have eventually fallen, such as the referendum, than any other hon. Member.
      Decimalisation involves counting on the 10 system. The 10 system involves two prime factors, five, which nobody ever uses, and two, which is used. If we were changing anything we should have changed the counting system either to the octaval system or to the duodecimal system. If the rate of VAT were to be changed, it would be comprehensible under either of those systems. However, if we change the rate of VAT from 10 per cent. to 8 per cent., we get into quite impossible mathematics with the decimal system, especially for people who are "economic illiterates", if I may use that term. While the Secretary of State for Education and Science may be an economic illiterate, it does not bode well if the Government impose upon those who have an ordinary education and who are not illiterate, economic burdens which are quite impossible for them to bear.
      1156
      If the pythons of the Excise Department raid this section of the community and accuse them of doing ill by the Government, we are making another bureaucracy and creating an even bigger bureaucracy to be nasty to them.
      It is for these reasons that this is a proper amendment. The rate of VAT should not be amended. Such a move introduces mathematical complications and improperly invades private activity. For those reasons I support the amendment.
      Mr. Robert Cooke: I am happy to agree with my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire (Mr. Fairbairn) and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dover and Deal (Mr. Rees). I hope that we shall not be faced with any further complications in what is already a complicated tax. I agree with my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire about the occasional inhumanities of "VAT-man". Certainly the small trader is lost in the present complexities. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kinross and West Perthshire has mentioned the difficulties of the small trader. As a small trader, I have no idea whatever how many souvenir bookmatches I possess. I have no intention of counting them, but the VAT-man can come during the hours of daylight and count them for himself if he wishes.
      I hope that the Government will not fall for a large number of different rates of VAT. There are rumours to that effect. Sometimes these rumours turn out to be true. Sometimes the Government—this is the only unkind thing I want to say—are prone to give way on these things. Certainly if the Secretary of State for Industry had heard of the octaval system I am sure he would have wanted to try it.
      If we are to have various rates, there is a class of activity which must surely be high on the list for a low rate or possibly even a zero rate. The British Tourist Authority has just estimated that £1,000 million will be earned by tourism this year. That healthy market must be based on a healthy home market. It is no good saying that overseas visitors can pay VAT or any other tax.

      1157
      I wish to mention the plight of the small hotel keeper and the guest house proprietor. Recently I had the pleasure of addressing a substantial meeting of these people in Swanage, Dorset, not far from my home. There is no doubt that the great personal interest which these people take in those whom they welcome into their homes in the summer will to some extent be disturbed by having to calculate at 8 per cent. or any other percentage which the Government decide to dream up. Tourism flourishes on what people come to see, and the arts and the national heritage are high on their list. Indeed, those are the principal things that people come to Britain to see. We must congratulate the Evening Standard on its campaign to have VAT removed from the living theatre.
      When VAT was introduced it was to be a comprehensive tax at a low rate. Nobody suggested that it would be right and fair for all. This was recognised soon after, in that the Arts Council made a quite substantial grant by way of relief of VAT which had to be paid in some sections of the theatre. There is no doubt now, however, that all sections of the theatre are in difficulty, and the losses made by many theatres exactly equal the amount of VAT which they have had to pay to the Revenue.
      I therefore believe that the theatre has a strong claim to be at the top of the list if concessions are to be made. I say that against the background to which my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) and other of my hon. Friends have rightly referred.
      Mr. Neville Sandelson: The point which the hon. Gentleman has made is sufficiently important for me to intervene to say that he speaks for a large number of hon. Members on both sides of the House who hope that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor will feel it right and proper to take away this tax, or the major part of it—possibly by other financial provisions in due course—which bears so heavily on the theatre.
      Mr. Cooke: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. If he and a substantial number of his hon. Friends were to support us, we could, without any difficulty, carry an amendment against the Government
      1158
      and take away this tax. I leave him to think about it.
      The theatre has a strong claim to be at the top of the list, but we must bear in mind the arts generally. The Royal Opera, which is in a special category and is substantially supported by the State, despite the heroic efforts of such organisations as the Imperial Tobacco Company and the National Westminster Bank, pays in VAT an amount equivalent to 3·5 per cent. of its total income. That is worth mentioning in passing.
      There is the extraordinary anomaly that some musical enterprises are heavily hit by VAT and others are not. I hope that the Government will bear that in mind. There are admission charges to historic houses, which bear £1 million worth of VAT, gardens, museums, exhibitions, and so on. I must not forget sport, because for all those interested in art an equal number are interested in sport. The Government must therefore consider that matter if they decide to change the 8 per cent. rate and have differential rates.
      I must mention the question of VAT on repairs to historic buildings. The Exchequer has given the Historic Buildings Council an extra £500,000 to take care of VAT and rising costs generally. But the private owner, who, in partnership with the Historic Buildings Council, aims to carry out the repairs, has had no corresponding increase. Indeed, he is hit by inflation and VAT if he is a trader.
      If we are to have differential VAT rates—some high, and some low, with some zero rating—let the Chancellor of the Exchequer recognise that there is great concern about the burden on the theatre and similar institutions and the national heritage in general, and that there is considerable support for relief. I leave the right hon. Gentleman with those thoughts and hope that he will refer to them.
      Mr. Nott: The previous debate on the Chancellor's motion was about incompetence and the Government's inability to prepare properly and bring forward in due time the capital transfer tax measure, which the Chancellor has described as the most important tax measure since the war. Illiteracy seems to be the topical charge and my right hon.

      1159
      and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) began by referring to the comments made by the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Foot) during the weekend. The right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale, privy as he is to the Cabinet's inner deliberations, apparently found a high degree of economic illiteracy amongst his colleagues, and in that respect it is not for us to question his judgment.
      Our little amendment had a charitable purpose, and it had in mind the comments of the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale. Believe it or not, one day he might be right. It is extraordinary how human endeavour is sometimes rewarded. There seems little purpose in consolidating a tax reduction in this Bill when the 1974 VAT order runs until July and when it seems more than probable, as the days go by, that the Chancellor will have no option but to increase taxation once again in his Budget in April. Although we cannot expect the Paymaster-General to anticipate his right hon. Friend's Budget statement, I hope that we shall hear from him whether it is illiterate for Ministers to speak out strongly in favour of the social contract. If it is, there is perhaps a yawning cavern in what we have been led to understand is the cornerstone of the Government's economic policy.
      I ask the Paymaster-General to give us some general answers to one or two of the questions posed by my hon. Friend for Horsham and Crawley (Mr. Hordern) for, as he said, inflation is palpably out of control. Wages are rising at about 30 per cent. on an annual basis and prices at 20 per cent., and there is no sign that wage demands in the public sector are decelerating, as witness the power workers' demand which is shortly to come forward. The social contract, that mysterious entity—that mirage which seems to disappear as one approaches it in the thirsty desert—is apparently dead, if, indeed, it ever existed. The situation now is that not only is inflation apparently out of control but the confidence of British industry is at its lowest ebb. All that is undoubtedly contrary to the main objectives of the Chancellor as expressed in his Budget Statement in July this year.
      As my hon. Friend the Member for Horsham and Crawley said, we have seen a welcome improvement in our balance of
      1160
      payments, but I do not think that that can be due to the improved competitiveness of British industry. Our costs are rising faster than those of almost any of our competitors. The balance of payments position looks as if it has improved, because the terms of trade have, luckily, turned in our favour, but the terms of trade are to a great extent out of our control and we cannot take much credit for that. Neither can we take much blame if the terms of trade turn against us.
      Most worrying of all on the economic side is the point made successively by my hon. Friends the Members for Horsham and Crawley, Eastbourne (Mr. Gow) and Hitchin (Mr. Stewart), namely, what appears to be the escalating size of the public sector borrowing requirement. We are all concerned about the out-turn. We do not expect the Paymaster-General to give us any indication, but surely it cannot be running at the level suggested by some Press commentators for whom we all have a great respect. Some suggest that the out-turn of the public sector borrowing requirement will be in the region of £8 billion. That is a staggering figure.
      9.0 p.m.
      With falling interest rates, I can well believe that the Government are selling a lot of gilts. With depression all round us, bank advances in the private sector may well be at a low level. Therefore, when my hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin speaks of the money supply, I can well believe that it is at the moment rising well below the rate of money GNP.
      To the extent that I believe the figures on the money supply at all—and that is another subject—I can believe that at the moment the level of the money supply is satisfactory. But assuredly the money supply is not under control. As each day goes by and as public expenditure apparently accelerates, we become more and more vulnerable to the interests and whims of our creditors abroad, some of them the Oriental potentates to whom my hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne referred.
      Whatever the level of the money supply, this country is placing itself in an increasingly dangerous and vulnerable position by its dependence on deposits from

      1161
      overseas. This is far and away the most critical part of our economic situation.
      My right hon. Friend the Member for Crosby (Mr. Page) spoke about the public expenditure White Paper. He said that he hoped we would debate it in due course. Speaking from memory, I recall the resource table in the public expenditure White Paper. That indicates that, even on the public expenditure figures announced by the Government earlier in the year when the PESC exercise began, this country faces the most critical situation in terms of the necessary level of private consumption. If the public expenditure has exploded in the way in which we believe, the position that the country faces is one of extreme danger.
      I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, West (Mr. Cooke) will forgive me, having said all that, if I do not embark upon further increases in the public sector borrowing requirement by commenting on VAT on the theatre, on historic houses and on other matters. I understand his arguments fully, and I have no doubt that we shall wish to consider them on a future occasion.
      I come, then, to some of the remarks made about VAT enforcement by my right hon. Friend the Member for Crosby, my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lonsdale (Mr. Hall-Davis) and others. If the allegations made by my hon. Friend the Member for Barkston Ash (Mr. Alison) are accurate—and I believe that the Government have not only to investigate this matter but to say something about it—Clause 37 has not been complied with. If the allegations are accurate, surely a warrant from the justices of the peace must have been required. I hope that the Paymaster-General will have something to say about this.
      I recall the views expressed in Committee on the enforcement powers in relation to VAT. At that time, I was a Treasury Minister. My hon. Friend the Member for Horsham and Crawley moved a number of amendments put forward by the Bar Council and other reputable bodies. I recall that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dover and Deal played a prominent part in those debates.
      It was the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself, sitting on the other side of the Committee, who was the most strenuous
      1162
      opponent of the powers which we were giving to Customs and Excise at that time. Interestingly enough—this goes to the heart of the matter raised by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dover and Deal—the Chancellor of the Exchequer made great play of the privilege of communication between a lawyer and his client. I quote but one sentence from the then Shadow Chancellor, who said:
      "No Government in their right senses, certainly no Government with a sense of Britain's legal traditions, would ever have considered the introduction of powers of this nature."—[Official Report, Standing Committee E, 12th June 1972, c. 806.]
      We all accept that indirect taxation and the collection of Customs and Excise duty and VAT is a much more difficult and sensitive matter than direct taxation. The Chancellor was protesting in that Committee at the powers that we were giving to Customs and Excise. We hope, therefore, that he will personally investigate some of the allegations which have been made against Customs and Excise in this case.
      It is obviously counter-productive for such allegations to be made and for them not to be followed up, and I have here the main leader in the Sunday Mirror, yesterday, which ended with the statement:
      "So come on, Denis. On with your crusading Batman suit and put those arrogant VAT-men in their place."
      We all know that they are not arrogant VAT-men, but I hope that the crusading Denis referred to in that leader will investigate the matter with care.
      My hon. Friends the Members for Lancaster (Mrs: Kellett-Bowman), Tonbridge and Malling (Mr. Stanley) and Bristol, West and my hon. and learned Friends the Members for Kinross and West Perthshire (Mr. Fairbairn), and Dover and Deal are concerned about the prospects of multirate VAT. We already have a multirate VAT with three rates—8 per cent., the car rate, and zero rate. If the Government add to the three rates, the burden upon traders will become intolerable. They are already suffering under the stringencies of the Price Code and the increased national insurance contribution, and if we are to ask traders to act on behalf of Customs and Excise and pay an increasing amount of tax it

      1163
      is important to retain their confidence in the system, because we could easily tip all these unpaid tax collectors over the edge into civil disobedience. Taxation in this country depends more and more upon consent, and at the moment that consent is under great strain.
      I conclude by reminding the House that it was the reduction in VAT to 8 per cent. which enabled the Chancellor to make the disgraceful suggestion during the General Election campaign that inflation was running at 8¼ per cent. Our short debate on this amendment brings back the memories of that VAT reduction and the consequences that it had. But as we have turned the debate, unwittingly perhaps—and perhaps not wholly with your consent, Mr. Deputy Speaker—into a short and rather fragmentary economics debate, I remind the Paymaster-General of what his colleague the Home Secretary said over the weekend, because his remarks seem to have paled beside the charges of his right hon. Friend the Member for Ebbw Vale and the charges of economic illiteracy which have been thrown about.
      The Home Secretary said "This country faces at the moment the gravest danger since Hitler". I hope that I have quoted the right hon. Gentleman correctly. We shall have many economic debates in the future, and perhaps during the course of the Bill, but the right hon. Gentleman put the problem faced by this country very succinctly, and perhaps the Paymaster-General will briefly answer the debate.
      The Paymaster-General (Mr. Edmund Dell): May I first congratulate the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Nott) on what I believe is his first speech on his return to the Opposition Front Bench. He certainly improves the Shadow Treasury team. In the past few months we have always listened with great interest to his views on the honesty of a balanced Budget set against the performance of the Chancellor under whom he served.
      The hon. Gentleman said that we have had a fragmentary economic debate. It has indeed been fragmentary. I took some comfort from his assurance that he would not expect from me any anticipation of my right hon. Friend's Budget Statement or Budget judgment, or figures
      1164
      relating to the public sector borrowing requirement. In so far as I can I shall deal with the specific points that have been put to me during the debate. I am sure that the House will not expect any new announcements this evening. We would have chosen a different way had there been any such intention.
      I was asked whether I could give an assurance whether there would not be a multirate VAT. I cannot give any such assurance, any more than could my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary when speaking in Standing Committee. The whole of the consultation that has taken place on this subject has made it clear that no decision has been made. If there were a decision to introduce a multirate VAT system it would need new legislation. The House would therefore have full opportunity to examine whatever proposals were brought before it.
      Equally, I cannot comment on the speech made by the hon. Member for Bristol, West (Mr. Cooke) on VAT on the living theatre, the performing arts and sport. As the House knows, representations have been made on these matters to my right hon. Friend. Those representations are under consideration. I hope that I shall be forgiven for pointing out that there are difficulties in this area that are not the choosing of this Government.
      Mr. Robert Cooke: The right hon. Gentleman said that there has already been consultation. Perhaps he will tell us more about the scope of that consultation. If there were to be a multirate system of VAT, would the arts and sport be high on the list for a low rate?
      Mr. Dell: I will not give the hon. Gentleman any encouragement. I have said that the matter is under consideration, and I shall not go beyond that. The matters that have been under consideration include a special retail scheme and the general operation of a multirate system of VAT were it to be introduced. I emphasise the point, as the consultation has made clear, that no decision has been made.
      Many right hon. and hon. Members have spoken on the methods of enforcement of VAT. Deep concern has been expressed about the way in which VAT has been enforced and the way in which

      1165
      powers of inspection have been carried out in certain cases to which Conservative Members have referred. It is important that the House should be alert to any abuse of power. I hope that abuses have not occurred. The first point to make is that the previous Conservative Government decided that as VAT was a system of self-assessment it was necessary to have the power of inspection. That power is embodied in Section 37(2) of the Act. The power of inspection is different from the power of search. That point is met in Section 37(3), where a warrant from a justice of the peace is required. The power of inspection should be a fairly routine matter where notice is almost always given to the person whose premises are to be inspected, and normally this has been carried on without difficulty.
      9.15 p.m.
      There are 1,200,000 registered traders and so far there have been 180,000 control visits, out of which there have been few complaints. Indeed, I believe that the current complaints concern only 10 visits although that would be too many if any proved on investigation to be justified. The need for these powers was decided, understandably in the circumstances of VAT, by the previous Government.
      If complaints are made it is obviously of the highest importance that they should be thoroughly investigated and that if there is reason for complaint appropriate action should be taken. Particular reference was made to a case brought forward by the hon. Member for Barkston Ash (Mr. Alison), but I would remind the House that that complaint was made in a letter to the Chancellor of the Exchequer dated 26th February. There has not yet been time to investigate the complaint, but it will be investigated thoroughly. I am sure that the House will require that it should be so. Certainly inspectors must act within the law but the instructions to them make it clear what the limits of their power are and the distinction between the power of inspection and the power of search.
      Mr. Hall-Davis: If the instructions have no particular reason for secrecy it would be reassuring to traders if they could be published.
      Mr. Dell: I shall discuss that question. I am not sure whether the instructions are written or verbal, but I shall see whether I can help the House in that respect.
      Mr. Hordern: I think that the hon. Gentleman said that only 10 cases were being examined by the Customs and Excise at the moment. I know of at least one case in which a constituent is complaining about these powers and I should have thought that many of my hon. Friends have had similar cases. The Press has reported other cases. I know that the right hon. Gentleman will treat this matter with the seriousness that it deserves, because it appears that the practice is much more widespread than he has said.
      Mr. Dell: If the hon. Gentleman knows of any case which he believes is not currently being investigated but which he thinks should be investigated, I hope he will let us know. It is our desire that legitimate complaints should be investigated so as to establish the truth.
      Mr. Peter Rees: I have today received an Answer from the Financial Secretary to the effect that 21 people have been searched under the VAT powers since 1st April 1973. That alarms me a little. I am not certain of the circumstances in which it becomes necessary to search so many people in a mere year and a half. I do not expect details of all the 21 people searched and why, but would the right hon. Gentleman include that in his area of investigation?
      Mr. Dell: If the hon. and learned Gentleman has further questions about those cases in which evidently there was a search, of course we can try to deal with them, but I take it that if those cases have been described as cases of search, a warrant from a justice of the peace would have been required.
      Mr. Rees: The right hon. Gentleman misunderstands. I understand that these people were personally searched. I have asked another Question and received the reply that 97 informations have been laid and search warrants issued in each case—that is, search of premises. But the purpose of my other Question was to discover how many had been physically searched. There is, for example, a reassuring provision that a woman may be

      1167
      searched only by a woman Customs Officer. It was in that connection that I asked that Question.
      Mr. Dell: I obviously cannot give an answer to that question today, because I have not seen the Answer that my hon. Friend has given. If the hon. and learned Gentleman has further points, of course we shall look at them.
      The right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) came on to what he described as matters of general economic policy. Among these he discussed the actual effect of the clause under discussion. May I make it clear to certain Opposition Members that the clause does not change the rate of VAT. It merely consolidates the position created by the order changing the rate to 8 per cent. Therefore, any hon. Member who thinks that by supporting the clause he is reducing the rate of VAT need have no such worry.
      The right hon. and learned Gentleman asked whether it was right to consolidate the new rate of VAT. As I am sure he knows, we have to consolidate it within one year or bring in a new order. I believe that it would be wrong not to follow what has been the normal practice in the past where the regulator has been used—that is, to consolidate at the earliest opportunity. After all, the intended margin for the use of the regulator power is 20 per cent. It would be wrong that it should be increased by a failure of this House to consolidate the rate when the opportunity occurred. This does not affect the right of the House to change the rate by subsequent legislation. But there I would enter questions of budgetary judgment, which clearly I cannot do this evening.
      The right hon. and learned Gentleman made what he described as certain speculative judgments about our present economic situation. He spoke of the need to achieve the right level of demand. That need certainly exists. One of the most important elements in achieving the right level of demand at present is to ensure that there is a sufficient transfer of resources into the balance of payments. Here during the last year we have had some success. Hon. Members of the Opposition have pointed out the
      1168
      extent of our continuing deficit, and that is a matter of serious concern. But there has been some success in the matter.
      During the last year the volume of exports rose very substantially more than the volume of imports. I think that it was the hon. Member for Horsham and Crawley (Mr. Hordern) who said that that was not the case recently. It is certainly true that for the last three months the volume of imports has fallen by 2·6 per cent. and the volume of exports has also fallen by a similar amount. This is due, I suspect, perhaps to some loss of competitiveness, but perhaps also to the deteriorating world trade situation which has made the task of our exporters very much more difficult. However, it is of vital importance—no one in the Government would deny this—that we should rectify our balance of payments situation as rapidly as possible and reduce our borrowing as rapidly as possible. That is an important aspect in the demand management situation which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has to consider.
      The right hon. and learned Gentleman discussed the social contract. Again, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has stated perfectly clearly his view of the present situation. He has said that 25 per cent. outside the contract was too high, and there is no division within the Government on that point. Certainly there is a serious inflationary situation, and the prime source of inflation at present is wage settlements. At any rate, we may now gain some advantage from the decline in the use of thresholds after the end of Stage 3, because threshold agreements were no small element in the problem of dealing with inflation which the Government have confronted since coming into office again some twelve months ago.
      Mr. Gow: The Paymaster-General has just told the House that there is no difference of view within the Government about the operation of the social contract and the methods which are to be used to fight inflation. Is he asking the House to believe that there is no difference of view on this matter between the Secretary of State for Education and Science and the Secretary of State for Employment?
      Mr. Dell: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman would wish me to devote too much attention to that intervention.
      The hon. Member for Hitchin (Mr. Stewart) asked whether the suspension of the supplementary scheme represented a change in the Government's policy for controlling the money supply. The reason for putting the scheme into abeyance—it has not been scrapped—is that it is not at present biting. In the latest three months for which figures are available the average level of interest-bearing liabilities was only 6¾ per cent. above the base level compared with the guideline of 18 per cent. It therefore appeared sensible in this situation to put the scheme into abeyance, but it does not represent any change of policy on the money supply. The hon. Gentleman will know that the increase in money supply under this Government has been below the increase of money GDP.
      I have already said that I cannot give the House any information in response to questions about the size of the public sector borrowing requirement. It is normal to do that each year at the time of the Budget. My right hon. Friend did it a second time last year in November when there was a significant change that he wished to announce. I certainly cannot help hon. Gentlemen in that respect at the moment.
      Mr. Gow: The Paymaster-General knows that my hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Mr. Hordern) and I put specific questions to him about the level of the public sector borrowing requirement and we asked him specifically by how much that had increased since the Budget Statement on 12th November. Why is the right hon. Gentleman so coy about giving these figures? Will he be more frank with the House and with the country?
      Mr. Dell: Not this evening.
      The hon. Member for Horsham referred to the level of investment in Britain, about which he has legitimate concern. I do not know whether he has seen the Press notice issued today about capital expenditure in the manufacturing, distributive and service industries for the fourth quarter of 1974. These figures give some comfort. They are better than
      1170
      some forecasters had expected. They show that the level of investment was still slightly short in manufacturing industry of the 1970 figure but at any rate was well up on the figures for 1971, 1972 and 1973. That does not mean that the level of investment in Britain is regarded by the Government as adequate or that steps are not needed to encourage higher investment.
      Mr. Hordern: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen what I was referring to—that is, the Financial Times Business Survey which referred to the lowest level of confidence amongst business men and particularly their investment intentions? What do the Department of Trade inquiries show? It is the trend for the future with which we are concerned, not figures for the fourth quarter of last year.
      Mr. Dell: I realise that the hon. Gentleman is concerned about intentions for the future. I was pointing out that pessimistic forecasts made over the last few months have, fortunately—I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will welcome this—not yet been borne out. I in no way wish to contradict the view that there is a serious danger in this respect. That is why my right hon. Friend took steps in November to increase company liquidity by a figure which we now estimate to be about £1,800 million, which we hope will help in that respect. However, it may well be—indeed, it is part of the Government's policy—that further action should be taken to improve the level of investment in Britain.
      Some hon. Members asked me questions about VAT on petrol and the motivation of the increase from 8 per cent. to 25 per cent. I do not believe that I should enter into those questions in any detail because in Clause 2 there are certain amendments which are concerned with that matter and it might be better if we left the discussion of that problem until we reach that point.
      I have tried to deal with questions which have been put to me, and I hope the House will now decide not to remove this clause from the Bill. As a matter of fact, it would not make much practical difference if the House decided to remove it, but I think it would be right to take the first opportunity to consolidate the

      1171
      change of rate. That is what this clause does, and I hope the House will approve it.
      Amendment negatived.

    Clause 2

      VAT: SPECIAL RATE FOR LIGHT HYDROCARBON OIL, ETC.
      9.30 p.m.
      Mr. Ridley: I beg to move Amendment No. 2, in page 2, line 12, leave out '25' and insert '15'.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this amendment we may take the following: No. 3, in page 2, line 22, at end insert:
      'or
      (c) shall apply to the first fifteen gallons of light oil purchased in any one calendar month by the owner of a registered private motor vehicle for the purpose of propelling that motor vehicle, provided the main place of residence of the owner is situated more than two miles, by the shortest route using public highways, from any area which—

      (i) as a local government area in England or Wales before 1st April 1974 was a London borough, county borough, borough or urban district, or

      (ii) as a local government area in Scotland is a city or burgh, or

      (iii) as a local government area in Northern Ireland before 1st October 1973 was a county borough, borough or urban district,

      and the exception specified in this paragraph shall be limited to fifteen gallons for any one person'.
      Mr. Ridley: It is a pleasure to me to return to the Finance Bill debates, having with the greatest of difficulty kept myself firmly seated during the afternoon and evening debate so far, and having had particular difficulty in not rising to the hon. Member for Luton, West (Mr. Sedgemore) who was rash enough to intervene a little earlier. I hope that he will intervene in this and other debates because he adds colour to all that we do and say in this House.
      This amendment was not discussed directly in Committee, although the hon. Member for Goole (Dr. Marshall), who, I hope, will speak to Amendment No. 3, has put down an amendment which is not dissimilar from the amendment which was discussed by the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe) on the question of an allowance.
      Mr. Lawson: Where is he?
      Mr. Ridley: The hon. Member is not finding it easy to attend. Liberals have many commitments, and my hon. Friend the Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson) is quite wrong to suggest that there is anything wrong in his absence, because there are plenty of other Liberals who can carry on the debate in the absence of the hon. Member.
      The question here is what should be the rate of tax on petrol. The Government propose a 25 per cent. VAT as a surcharge both on the price and on the excise duty on petrol, which brings the price up to its very high level of about 72p, 73p or 74p a gallon, depending on which grade one purchases.
      It is a curious consideration that just when people were expecting the Arabs to bump up the price of petrol to unprecedented heights the price has gone up to unprecedented heights—but it is not the Arabs who have put it up; it is the Government. A very large proportion of the price—more than half—is now tax, and we cannot blame the Arabs for that. We can only blame the Chancellor for his goings-on.
      I should like to examine the economic justification for the Government's doing this. If it is proposed that we should reduce imports of oil and do it by taxation of oil, it seems odd to single out petrol for that particular burden, because petrol represents only 14 per cent. of a barrel of crude oil. The other 86 per cent. goes as fuel oil, lubricating oils, and so on, which go into industry. It is an anomalous and curious position for the Government to take when they are prepared to subsidise electricity—which burns a great deal of fuel oil—to the tune of £1,000 million a year, and at the same time to heap the tax on to petrol. It does not seem to me to be a logical way of reducing oil imports, if that is, indeed, the motive of the Government.
      The absolute price of petrol is about the same in this country as it is in the major European countries, but it already represents a far higher proportion of the average wage. Although our petrol prices are similar to those in Germany, France and Spain, we pay much more for petrol, as a percentage of the average wage, than people in those countries do. There is

      1173
      no doubt, therefore, that petrol is being singled out as a means for particularly onerous treatment of the British motorist.
      I see on the tape tonight that a statement made by a Treasury spokesman—one of those curious people who never come out into the open and say who they are—has made clear that the Government are thinking about abolishing the road fund licence duty and increasing the price of petrol still further by taxation to compensate for the revenue lost on the road fund licence. The talk is of another 15p on the price of petrol.
      I do not think that there is much sense in the motor vehicle tax—an odd sort of tax which takes £25 a year from each motor vehicle owner, as though that were not an expensive tax to collect. I have no great love for that tax, and I agree that it would be better to substitute petrol taxation for it.
      I am reminded here of the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Cornwall, North in Committee that there should be a five-gallons-a-month ration for everyone, at a lower price, which would have had the effect of giving a subsidy of £125 a year to every vehicle owner. But that was effectively demolished in Committee as a typical Liberal suggestion, which found no friends. However, the Government are now being more subtle if they intend to do what it is said they have in mind, namely, simply to abolish the road fund tax and increase the price of petrol still further. But such a move would at once bring petrol to about £1 a gallon by the time VAT and all the other things were added. That would be far too high, and there is no economic justification for it.
      Before I come to the economics of the matter, I should refer to Amendment No. 3, in the name of the hon. Member for Goole, whose basic suggestion is that country dwellers should have 15 gallons of petrol a month at a lower rate. He does not say quite what the lower rate should be—admittedly, it is difficult to draft—and, although it might in principle be desirable, it would be appallingly difficult to work in practice.
      All this business about the main place of residence of the owner being more than two miles
      "by the shortest route using public highways"
      1174
      from the nearest urban district that was, would cause a little altercation, I am sure. It is hard enough to remember the present local government boundaries, let alone the previous boundaries, or what would be the shortest route by public highway to get two miles away. I am sure that it would all be rather difficult, and, what is more, other people's speedometers never seem to read the same as mine.
      Moreover, I do not believe that the hon. Gentleman's amendment would meet the case. A lot of people who live in the country may not need the concession. Equally, there are a lot of people living within two miles of an urban district that was who should jutifiably have it. I cannot, therefore, regard that as the right way to go about the highly desirable objective which the hon. Gentleman seeks.
      From a constituency point of view, I entirely support the hon. Gentleman's objective. My constituents would all benefit. We have no urban district borough or county borough within miles of my constituency, and I am sure that they would all support it. Nevertheless, I cannot think that it would be either right or fair to go about it in that way.
      Why is there this pressure from country districts for cheaper petrol? The immediate answer is that the price of petrol is too high. Those who have to live by motor cars, shop by them and go to work by them, those who have to do their business by means of road transport, whether they live in the country or the towns, will automatically find themselves completely disadvantaged by the high price of petrol. The right remedy is to stop loading the burden solely on petrol. My preferred solution would be that we should place a tax on the import of crude oil and that we should take some of the burden off petrol and put it on to fuel oil. It is crude oil we buy, not petrol. The petroleum statistics make it clear that if we were to cut 10 per cent. or 20 per cent. of the petrol consumed in this country it would not affect our take of crude oil. We need that amount to keep the factories and the power stations running, and we should need to buy just about as much as before the cut.
      I now go further and examine the economic basis for this whole policy. We talk about the oil deficit and the non-oil

      1175
      deficit. There is a different attitude towards the oil deficit as compared with the non-oil deficit. The oil deficit is not our fault, or the fault of Ministers. It has nothing to do with this country; it just came up and hit us and we do not have to feel any guilt about it. On the non-oil deficit, however, which relates to such things as caviar, Japanese television sets and Mercedes cars, we may have a certain amount of responsibility and perhaps we should do something to reduce it. All this is totally fallacious thinking. It is all one deficit, and it is hideously big. We must address ourselves to controlling not just one part of it or one product out of which it arises.
      If we have a deficit of £4,000 million, which is about the figure for the current year, we trace it to the fact that last year the Government had a deficit of about the same amount on its domestic borrowing requirement. If a Government print £4,000 million and give it to the British people, it follows that the people will spend it, that the goods will not be available in this country, and that they will spend it on importing goods from abroad. Here I pay a tribute to the Labour Party—one of the few that can be paid to it. Labour Members may go home tonight feeling secure in their political wisdom as a result of what I am about to say. It is that the Home Secretary, who used to play such a prominent part in our economic debates in 1969 and 1970, actually abolished the domestic deficit borrowing requirement and made it into a surplus. Hey presto, we had a surplus on current account a year later.
      It follows, as far as I can see, that the Government's policy on the borrowing requirement, which we were discussing in the last amendment, is reflected in due course in the country's import bill and in the trade gap. If the Government think we are spending too much on imports, whether it be on oil or anything else, all they have to do is to reduce the domestic borrowing requirement and in due course they will find that the balance of trade will improve. I suspect that they know that to be true as well as I do.
      If, therefore, these are the true facts—sketchily and briefly though I have put them in my desire to help the House to make progress through my self-restraint—
      1176
      why is it that the private motorist has to be clobbered? Why does he have to pay more than 70p a gallon for his petrol—a figure which might increase to £1 if the rumour on the tape turns out to be true? Why does the whole brunt have to fall on the private motorist? It is of no economic benefit to the Revenue that it should do so, since it could raise its money in more orthodox across-the-board methods. It is of no benefit to the balance of trade—which is mainly due to the Government's profligate economic policies—nor, so far as I can see, to the road programme, road safety, or any of the other highly desirable objectives which the Government may have in mind.
      9.45 p.m.
      The answer is that in the mind of every good Socialist there is a thorough dislike of the private motorist. There is a hatred of the man who gets into his car, drives to work, leaves his car there and drives home in the evening. He does not fit into the mind of the planner who lays out tube lines, trains, buses and what is called public transport—those vast, empty charabancs which are trundled through the northern cities of our country. As people will go in their cars, because it is more convenient in every way and more sensible for them, they must be stopped. That is the argument. Therefore, we see the ruthless application of a policy of pricing them out of the market. The price of petrol is forced up to try to force people out of their cars and back into the empty public transport.
      Mr. Grimond: I agree with what the hon. Gentleman says about the private motorist, but the curious thing is that all Ministers, top civil servants and heads of industry go to work in cars. There are 50 more cars at the disposal of Ministers and top civil servants than there were a few years ago.
      Mr. Ridley: The right hon. Gentleman must agree that there is a difference. One must be fair. A Minister's car, a top industrialist's car or a civil servant's car is not paid for by the private individual; it is paid for by the Ministry or the industry concerned. Therefore, the position is not the same as that of the ordinary person who has to pay out of his private income to go to work in his own car. The situation is exemplified in Russia, where the only people who

      1177
      are allowed cars are the top commissars—the top members of the Communist Party—because it is essential for them to travel. The hon. Members for Luton, West (Mr. Sedgemore) and Bebington and Ellesmere Port (Mr. Bates) are laughing. They are quite happy in this debate, because they will both have cars. So will the Chief Secretary and other Labour Members. It is the ordinary people in my constituency and my hon. Friends—
      Mr. Sedgemore: Representing Luton, West, I assure the hon. Gentleman that if I had my way every citizen would have a car.
      Mr. Ridley: I welcome a convert. I have always thought that the hon. Gentleman was tactile material. He is beginning to show that he is responding to the arguments to which he had to listen during those 160 hours of debate in Standing Committee. I think that with a little more patience he will once more become a reasonable citizen, prepared to understand how these things work.
      I ask the House to accept the amendment and cease to persecute the private motorist on grounds which have nothing to do with economics or the saving of fuel, which have no economic justification or rationale but which are part of the desire of the Socialist and bureaucratic mind to make people's travelling habits conform to the way in which public transport runs. Those who believe in individual freedom, whether it is affected by the capital transfer tax or by the matter of transport, would be well advised to address themselves to bringing down the price of petrol, so that ordinary people can go about their business in motor cars if it suits them, without being priced out of the market by a Government who insist on planning every aspect of our lives.
      Mr. David Steel: I support the amendment. I am the more moved to do so by the reports over the weekend and today about the Chancellor's intentions with regard to the price of petrol.
      I genuinely believe that the Treasury as a whole, including the Ministers in charge of it, have no appreciation of what life is like in those parts of the country with no public transport. It must be remembered that in recent years public
      1178
      transport in many of the areas that some of us now represent was subsidised by the Treasury in one form or another. There were the social grants in respect of railway lines that have now been closed, and so savings have been made by the withdrawal of those grants. There were grants for public bus services also now being reduced and probably to be reduced still further with the rearrangement of the rate support grant. Already the Exchequer is considerably relieved of expenditure that it has incurred hitherto in order to maintain some form of public transport in the rural areas.
      On top of that, the Treasury now comes along with these indiscriminate proposals. In principle, I do not oppose conservation measures, but these proposals are indiscriminate. The Government seem totally unaware of the true effect of an increase in VAT, both that allowed under the Bill and that projected in various leaks circulated in the newspapers in the last couple of days. An increase will cause serious hardship in rural communities.
      Is the Treasury aware that the distributing oil companies in Britain are now imposing minimum delivery quantities on the petrol stations, which means that many of the smaller petrol stations are going out of business? Thus, in addition to the hardship that is caused by VAT, petrol is becoming unobtainable from many of the smaller stations.
      I cite an example from my own constituency. It happens to affect me directly. The valley where I live is 25 or 30 miles long from the burgh town to the remote hillsides. Until a few weeks ago, there were two petrol filling stations, one seven miles and one about 20 miles from the town. Neither is now able to supply petrol. The oil companies imposed quantity limits below which a premium was charged. The profit margin that a small retailer could obtain does not meet the interest charges on the money that has to be borrowed to pay for a petrol delivery.
      This is a serious social problem, not an economic problem, that the rural communities face. This is already one of the consequences that has occurred in the past few weeks of the imposition of the VAT surcharge. The serious Government proposal that has been widely circulated

      1179
      today—the story is on the tapes again tonight—that the Government are considering the abolition of the £25 excise tax and proposing a still further imposition of petrol tax instead would further drive the rural communities into total despair.
      It is no good the Chancellor applying his own experience from Leeds or London to the communities of which I speak. Many people who commute long distances to work from the rural areas will simply have to go on the dole in order to be better off, because they will be unable to afford the cost of travel to work. For them there is no public transport. It is no good saying that this is a conservation measure designed to force people to use public transport. It cannot be used if it does not exist. Farmers in the remoter communities will find it difficult to get employees and their families to live in such areas simply because of the cost of living there.
      I appeal to the Treasury to think again about this VAT imposition. The two-tier petrol pricing system that they are studying will make no sense if they keep this indiscriminate measure. It must be a measure biased in favour of the rural communities if they are to survive as we have known them.
      Dr. Edmund Marshall: The hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. Steel) referred in his closing remarks to the need for some kind of two-tier pricing system for petrol which was biased in favour of rural communities. I suggest that this is exactly what Amendment No. 3 standing in my name is designed to effect. The hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) referred to a number of details in my amendment. I shall deal with his comments in the course of my speech.
      There is in the rural areas a particularly severe need for social justice for the motorist. It is not necessarily the rich motorist, but rather the motorist of modest means who depends on his own car, often an old vehicle which needs a lot of maintenance and repair, to get to and from work, to the shops and other places of public business. Regrettably there are increasingly large areas of the country where public transport is conspicuous by its absence, where people are
      1180
      dependent on their own means of transport.
      This amendment will enable a motorist living in a rural area to have 15 gallons of petrol each month on which VAT would be levied at the old rate of 8 per cent., rather than the new rate of 25 per cent. To that extent the steep rise in the cost of petrol would be mitigated.
      I recognise that one difficulty in formulating such a proposal is to define exactly what we mean by a rural area. I find it impossible to do this perfectly. There has been an attempt to do it in the amendment by reference to the old local government areas of England and Wales and to the corresponding areas in Scotland and Northern Ireland. Although the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury may have difficulty in remembering what the boundaries were, they are at least on the maps and people can refer to them and work out the exact distances that they live from what was the nearest London borough, county borough, borough or urban district under the local government system before 1st April 1974.
      Mr. A. J. Beith: While I recognise the inability satisfactorily to define "rural area", may I ask whether the hon. Gentleman does not on the other hand recognise that the old local government areas were not very helpful and that, for instance the Lake District or a large part of it was defined as an urban district? Is he aware that the top of Helvellyn by that definition would not have qualified for rural relief? Is that not a reason for supporting the first of these two amendments?
      Dr. Marshall: I recognise the difficulty the hon. Gentleman raises. Conversely, there are many areas which were rural districts and which are largely urban in character. I recognise that the definition of a rural area given in my amendment is not perfect. If someone can provide a better definition I am prepared to listen to him. I am merely putting forward the best definition I have so far been capable of making.
      Let me say a word about the practical application of the amendment. The hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury said that it would be difficult to apply. I suspect that officials in the Inland

      1181
      Revenue would look in some horror on the idea of having to issue coupons just for motorists in rural areas. They would not want to take the initiative in supplying such coupons. Surely an easier method of implementing the proposal would be to put initiative upon the motorist, and for him to be able to reclaim the extra VAT—the difference between 8 per cent. and 25 per cent.—that he will have paid on the first 15 gallons of petrol bought each month.
      10.0 p.m.
      The procedure for doing that would simply be to make available application forms for the private motorist to complete and return, on either a monthly or a quarterly basis, to the Inland Revenue for the return of VAT. On that form he could give all the details necessary to substantiate his claim. He would need to return the receipts for the petrol he had purchased and at least on the first occasion that he made a claim he would need to include his vehicle's registration book.
      To meet the point made by the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury, if there are people in rural areas who feel that they do not need this help—perhaps the hon. Gentleman is one of them; I do not know where his main place of residence it—they need not send in an application form.
      Mr. Ridley: Will the hon. Gentleman say what he means by "main place of residence"? Is it where one does not pay capital gains tax on one's house? What has the hon. Gentleman in mind? My main place of residence is in the country. I do not know where the hon. Gentleman's main place of residence is.
      Dr. Marshall: My main place of residence is in an urban area. I can therefore immediately disclaim any personal interest in the amendment. "Main place of residence" is a term which occurs in at least one other place in tax legislation.
      My amendment is not beyond the bounds of practicality and I hope that it will be considered by those who are thinking about possibilities of two-tier petrol pricing. I hope that my right hon. Friend will be able to tell us more fully what the Government's policy is on two-tier petrol pricing. On 19th December
      1182
      my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister indicated in answer to a Question that the Government were considering such a scheme, but since then no information has emerged from Government Departments. It seems that the Government have turned their back on the idea of petrol rationing and that they are instead trying to use various mechanisms involving the pricing of petrol. If the Government are to be effective, they had better act soon.
      Mr. Lawson: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
      Dr. Marshall: I am about to finish.
      Mr. Lawson: Before the hon. Gentleman sits down—
      Dr. Marshall: No. I hope that the hon. Gentleman has been a Member long enough to realise that hon. Members who wish to intervene must wait for the Member speaking to give way.
      I hope that in reply my right hon. Friend will be able to tell us the Government's policy on this problem. My amendment represents one way of dealing with it.
      Mr. Lawson: Before the hon. Gentleman sits down—
      Mr. Speaker: Sir John Hall.
      Sir John Hall: I support the amendment so ably moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley), partly because of my concern about the burden of tax borne by so many people and partly because of my anxiety on hearing tonight for the first time of the proposals which the Government apparently have in mind to remove the present vehicle tax and instead to increase the tax on petrol. Against that background the Government should make clear exactly what is their policy for petrol and fuel tax as a whole.
      It has been suggested that the Government might have in mind the discouragement of the use of petrol so as to save on our import bill, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury said, the proportion of petrol in every imported barrel of crude oil is comparatively modest, so that we should not achieve much import saving by increasing the price of petrol. Motorists who depend on their cars and

      1183
      to whom a car is an essential part of daily life will continue to use their cars despite the price of petrol. All that will happen is that they will demand ever-increasing wages to meet the cost.
      If, on the other hand, the Government's purpose is to discourage the use of private vehicles, they are not likely to achieve that unless they take far more effective steps to improve public transport. Three years ago the Select Committee on Expenditure submitted a report, which was debated by the House, suggesting how public transport facilities could be improved to a point at which more people would be encouraged to leave their cars at home, especially commuters, and instead to use public service facilities. If the Government have something of that kind in mind, the first essential is to concentrate on improving public services and not to discourage the use of cars by the imposition of a penal petrol tax.
      In my constituency, which is just over 30 miles from London, many areas are without transport facilities. It is odd to reflect that within such a comparatively short distance of a large city such as London there are people living in hamlets and villages who have no transport except for their private motor vehicle. I live in a hamlet in which there is no bus connection to the nearest town. People with no private car either have to beg a lift or to walk three miles to the nearest bus route to get to the neighbouring main town. That applies to many areas within easy reach of main cities.
      The Government do not appreciate the extent to which ordinary people rely upon the use of their cars. Where a family has one car the wife will often drive her husband to the station in the morning and thereafter she is dependent on the car to do her shopping and to take her children to school. Without it she would be completely housebound and would be unable to continue to live in that area. The effect of increasing the cost of travel in country areas will be to drive people into the towns and to make it even more difficult for people to live in rural areas. I beg the Minister to have this in mind in considering the tax.
      1184
      Apart from supporting the amendment, which is designed to reduce the existing tax, I hope and pray that there is no truth in the rumour that the tax is likely to be increased. I hope that the Paymaster-General will categorically deny that there is any truth in the statements that have been made to the effect that he intends to increase the petrol tax.
      Mr. Grimond: I rise to support the amendment. This is a serious matter in the north of Scotland and in my island constituency. People have to use private transport to get to work, or to get to market, which for the farmer is the equivalent of getting to work. There is no question of cutting down on pleasure, nor do these people have any transport provided for them by their employers.
      In answer to a Question I was told that the number of Government cars had risen by 50 in recent years and there was no proposal to reduce the number. We have all this oil crisis and so on, yet the Government do not intend to reduce their transport by one vehicle. What is more, they have public transport at their disposal. How many Ministers come to work in London on public transport? But at the same time, it is supposed that people in Orkney and Shetland and in the North of Scotland who have no public transport should walk to work. We have to remember that there is no tax relief against the cost of getting to work in a car.
      It may be argued, why do they live so far from their work? The answer is that there is no other housing. If people are prevented from moving about the country in the North of Scotland and in my constituency, living there becomes totally uneconomic. The result will be large additions to already long housing lists or, as my hon. Friend the Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. Steel) said, people will prefer to go on public assistance. The situation is nearing the point where in areas of low wages it pays people to be on the dole rather than to pay this constantly increasing rate for petrol.
      I want also to support what was said by the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury about the general thinking behind this proposal. It is ill-conceived

      1185
      both from the point of view of national economics and from that of the countryside. When I regularly meet Ministers travelling on the tube lines in London, I shall believe that there is something in the argument about public transport. Even then, I shall expect the Government to provide some public transport in constituencies such as my own.
      Mr. Evelyn King: I congratulate the hon. Member for Goole (Dr. Marshall) on his amendment and on the way in which he moved it. I hope that he will press it to a Division, because clearly it is of great interest to many constituencies.
      This is part of the growing discrimination against the countryman by the townsman. It exists in the case of rates and in that of wage levels, and nowhere does it exist more than in the case of transport.
      I say again what I said last week in the House. It is now some four years since I first wrote to the then Minister about the possibility of mini-buses, postal buses and other forms of assistance to rural transport. I received a very charming letter back recommending all these ideas. I wrote again last week and I received practically the same letter back. But in the four years nothing has happened.
      This amendment provides us with an opportunity to remedy the injustices which exist. They are injustices based upon a pattern of the past which no longer obtains. My mind goes at once in my own constituency to the nuclear station at Winfrith, which is in the depth of the countryside. When it was first proposed, there was much opposition to it. One of the conditions upon which it was decided that it could be erected was that there should be no conurbation around it. It was said that the thousands of people who worked there in modern conditions, with easy means of transport, could scatter in the surrounding villages and live in Weymouth, Bournemouth, Poole and travel daily to their work. Those were conditions which employees at Winfrith accepted and, perfectly fairly, they thought that they would last for their working lives. Suddenly, they find that buses have been removed wholesale. The railway from Swanage to Wareham has disappeared altogether. More rail closures are threatened. The one and only
      1186
      means of transport to get to work, the motor car, is being priced out of their means.
      I appeal to the Minister to understand this difference between the townsman and the countryman of which the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) spoke. In a dozen different ways the countryman is being penalised. The countryman's wages are being reduced by this means in a way in which the townsman's are not.
      I instanced Winfrith. I could have instanced the Underwater Weapons Establishment at Portland and a dozen other rural centres of employment where employees will soon endure great hardship. This amendment may or may not be the best way to reduce that hardship. But the time has come when transport must be made easier for countrymen and rural dwellers.
      I have no doubt. I am sure that the Minister has no doubt. Therefore, I hope that the hon. Member for Goole will press his amendment to a Division. It may be that he will win.
      10.15 p.m.
      Mr. Kenneth Clarke: I should like to follow what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, South (Mr. King) by congratulating the hon. Member for Goole (Dr. Marshall) on raising the difficult problem of a two-tier price structure for petrol. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his courage in going into this subject, because he has discovered the difficulties of trying to produce any practical and fair method by which it can be put into practice.
      I agree with the hon. Gentleman's motives, because he has a constituency which is very much like my own, with constituents who appreciate the need for economy in the use of fuel but who feel that the present use of the price mechanism in the blunt way in which it is being used is unfair and that there are sections of the population which are much more adversely affected by the price mechanism than others and there is no rhyme or reason in the way in which it applies.
      The hon. Gentleman has chosen to try to define the rural areas of England—a substantial part of my constituency comes into that category—to give a special reduced tax ration of petrol in those areas.

      1187
      I regret that, having looked at the amendment, I have to say that although it would benefit parts of my constituency, it highlights the problem of a two-tier petrol system because as soon as one starts defining various tiers—in this case geographically—one creates fresh unfairnesses and anomalies.
      The hon. Gentleman has used the old local government boundaries, irrational as they were, as a basis for the amendment. That may make a great deal of sense on the ground in Goole, but if he looks at a map of Nottinghamshire he will see that it does not. I should have to explain to the inhabitants of Ruddington and Tollerton that they do not qualify for a special allowance, whereas similar villages a mile away would get the 15 gallon reduced rate. The hon. Gentleman's method of choosing a geographical distinction is not accurate. I also find it difficult to see how drawing any geographical boundaries will meet the case.
      I echo all that was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, South about the problems of rural areas, but there are unfairnesses within the urban areas, too. If there is a two-tier petrol system, one has to try to direct it to the individual needs and circumstances of motorists. A geographical division does not meet the point. In urban areas the worst affected are those on shift work who live in areas where there is a good bus service for most of the day but not at the time when they have to go to work. They find that petrol at 75p a gallon is intolerable. To raise the price to £1 a gallon would have a significant effect upon their living standards and income.
      There is another important distinction between motorists which determines how badly affected they are by the present increase in prices. The price increases introduced by the Government have badly affected the wholly private motorist who is running his car out of his own taxed income. A high proportion of motorists are not in that position. They run a car for which they receive an allowance for petrol, and probably the car itself is provided by an employer. Using the price mechanism to try to ration the use of petrol causes hardship to that one section of motorists alone who provide their own cars and receive no outside
      1188
      help. I see difficulties with a two-tier system, because using geographical limits is not fair. The shift worker cannot be coped with, and it is difficult to distinguish between the genuine private motorist and the man who has a car and petrol provided by his firm.
      There is a further snag in all these schemes, and that is that any system which gives 15 gallons a month to those within whatever category one chooses is somewhat unfair in the assistance that it provides. If the amendment were to be accepted, in my rural area those who would benefit most would be those who made limited use of their cars and the 15 gallons a month enabled them to cope with shopping in the nearest village and making a few other journeys.
      What about the people in the more remote villages who need their cars to enable them to get to work and who find a journey of 50 miles a day by no means unusual travelling to and from the nearest city. They would exhaust their allowance in nine days and find that they were much less advantaged from the hon. Gentleman's proposal than those with much less cause to be affected in the same villages as themselves.
      Having said all that, having congratulated the hon. Member for Goole, and having gone through what seemed to be the difficulties of his proposal, I come back to where my hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) began. What unites my hon. Friend and the hon. Member for Goole is the discovery that when one tries to use extra rates of VAT and the crude price mechanism on petrol as a method of conserving fuel and as a method of curing the balance of payments deficit one has to bear in mind that it is an acutely unfair way of trying to solve the problem.
      We may well have reached the stage, even if past increases in the price of petrol might have been justified, where to go much further would be intolerable. This nation has to cut its oil imports and its fuel bill. It probably has to encourage public transport and some lessening of the use of the motor car. However, if the rumours in the Press are correct and we are to go on to £1 a gallon, we shall reach a stage where we shall be fiercely penalising an unfairly chosen section of the population. I trust that this debate will

      1189
      produce a reply from the Paymaster-General which will assure us that the Government realise that the use of VAT on petrol has gone as far as it can possibly be taken.
      Mr. Michael Latham: Unlike my hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, South (Mr. King), I cannot congratulate the hon. Member for Goole (Dr. Marshall) on his amendment. However, I congratulate him on the force with which he presented it. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) in that the right way to deal with the problem is by acting on the VAT element rather than by the sort of scheme which the hon. Member for Goole advanced.
      My first point concerns the effect on people living in rural areas. In my constituency the town of Melton Mowbray has a level of commuting by car similar to that of the constituencies in Kent. There is not enough work in Melton so the people have to drive to Leicester or use the inadequate bus service. If they drive to Leicester it costs them, given the present price of petrol, £4·50 to £5 a week. That is a substantial amount. It is within the Government's power to accept Amendment No. 2 and to help my constituents. I hope that they will feel able to do something of that sort.
      I believe that any two-tier pricing system should be resisted not only because it is unfair but because it is unworkable. The hon. Member for Goole did not mention the effect on the garages which have to sell the petrol. One of my reasons for being unhappy about the substantial increase to 25 per cent. of VAT on petrol was that the burden fell most heavily on the garages. That should be firmly put on the record. The result of the proposals of the hon. Member for Goole as regards a two-tier pricing system would be an increased burden upon the garages. The Motor Agents' Association Limited has made it clear that it sees no reason for its members to implement such a scheme. It would involve them in considerable expense, enormous administrative costs and problems for which they are not qualified.
      I hope that when Ministers consider a two-tier pricing system they will talk to the people who would have to operate it
      1190
      rather than merely announcing a decision. That is what happened shortly before Christmas. They allowed oil prices to be increased and imposed a 48-hour freeze on the price of petrol at the pumps. That meant that most garages ran out of petrol very quickly. That was an example of nonsense within a Department. It is essential that the Government take some constructive action to help rural dwellers with the price of petrol. It is essential that that help is offered now. My hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury has put forward a constructive proposal which I hope the House will approve.
      Mr. Wyn Roberts: I am surprised and shocked to hear the latest rumours of a further increase in the price of petrol. I am shocked for two reasons. First, I am shocked because this means in effect rationing by price. That is a very un-Socialist course of conduct. I hope the Government are aware of that. Secondly, am I not right in thinking that before the General Election just over a year ago the Leader of the House was calling for a decrease in the tax on petrol? Am I not right in thinking that the Prime Minister joined in the chrous? What a U-turn we are about to have if these rumours are true.
      What will happen to the country areas? I have every sympathy with the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond). In my part of North Wales the situation is similar to that in Scotland. We have works in the middle of my constituency that are very remote indeed from the nearest towns. If the price of petrol goes up as envisaged, there will be workers in my constituency paying at least £2 a day for petrol to travel to and from work. The conclusion will be migration from the country areas to the towns, exacerbating all the problems of housing and so on.
      Like my hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley), I cannot imagine what is in the Government's mind as the ultimate purpose of this. I can only agree that what they want is far more public transport and the disappearance of the private motorist. I would warn them that the public transport system is not prepared to cope with the abolition of the private motorist.
      Mr. Nott: It is not the intention of the official Opposition to reduce the Government's revenue when, as a result of their profligate public spending, they face a mounting borrowing requirement, but we certainly believe that the principles behind this clause deserve scrutiny and some of the strong criticism which has come from this side. In this respect, this short debate and, more significantly, the debate in Committee, have done a great deal to shed further darkness on the Government's ideas for energy-saving. The debate on energy the other day also did nothing to shed light on the Government's intentions.
      The clause embodies a crude method of rationing petrol by price, but for the amount of energy that it is likely to save it will cause a significant suffering to the disabled and the elderly, to rural areas and to particularly low income areas without public transport. There is already severe distress among people who need cars to get to work, to take children to school and to shop in nearby villages. For what? I understand that petrol accounts for only 14 per cent. of the total energy consumption. Since the major users of petrol will be able to treat the VAT as an input tax, the total energy saved will be very small.
      The clause will have the most arbitrary effects. My hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) made the valid point that we are heaping the price on petrol all the time while continuing to subsidise power generation, which consumes fuel oil, which is by far the major proportion of our oil imports, in vast quantities. I must agree with my hon. Friend, who moved the amendment in an admirable way, that the Socialists have a persecution mania about the private motorist. When last in office, they continually increased purchase tax on vehicles and when we came into office we continually reduced it. Now the spiralling cost of private motoring is starting once again under another Labour Government.
      It is true, as the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Grimond) said, that the margin between the incentive to travel to work and actually earn a wage and to stay at home on social
      1192
      security benefits in the rural areas has now narrowed almost to nothing.
      10.30 p.m.
      Hon. Members opposite advocate a two-tier pricing system. I find it very hard to believe that the solution of the hon. Member for Goole (Dr. Marshall) to the very real problems he has described is the right one. Anything bureaucratic, involving ration books and more civil servants, and increasing burdens on the small garage owner, is likely to appeal to the Socialist mind, but it can hardly appeal to the Opposition. To get the benefits of a two-tier system into the hands of those who deserve them—my hon. Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) gave an example of those in urban areas who work on a late shift—is a very difficult task.
      I hope that my hon. Friend will forgive me if I do not comment on the distinction between the oil deficit and the non-oil-deficit. I rather agree that we have heard a little too much about the oil deficit. When shall we start hearing about the timber deficit and the caviar deficit? They are all part of the same overall deficit on the balance of payments. However, we want to press ahead with the consideration of the Bill.
      In conclusion I want to stress one or two points. There is very grave concern about the massive increases which have been placed on the price of petrol, and there is no real understanding—certainly in the rural area which I represent—of what the Government are intending to do. There are rural areas with virtually no public transport left. My hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, South (Mr. King) made the point on that matter extremely well. In Cornwall—if I may be so bold as to mention that admirable country, nation, or county—the cost of travelling to and from work by car is the greatest single matter of concern at present, apart from inflation itself.
      As has been mentioned, the disposable income of ordinary people in the rural areas has suffered dramatically as a result of this measure. It can quite easily be substantiated that the adverse social effects of this clause far exceed its economic benefits.
      I sum up this short debate by saying that this very large increase in VAT is

      1193
      discriminatory; it hits some of the weakest sections of the community; it will encourage rural depopulation, and will cause considerable hardship among elderly motorists. Many of our constituents have said to us recently that the one thing they thought they would enjoy during retirement was a little motoring. Now the elderly pensioner living on a fixed income is hardly able to enjoy that pleasure at all.
      I hope that the Paymaster-General will give a substantive answer indicating the Government's understanding of the concern felt in the rural areas. We shall listen to what he has to say with great interest and concern.
      Mr. Dell: In these two amendments we have two proposed ways of dealing with an undoubtedly difficult and serious problem. That is the problem of people who have to make extensive use of cars, notably in rural areas but also in other circumstances. But it appears, at any rate in the view of the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. Nott), that both of the methods are unsuitable for the purpose. I agree with him that both methods are unsuitable. The hon. Gentleman said that he did not intend to deprive the Government of revenue, which would be a consequence if the first of these amendments were accepted. He said that he found the second amendment bureaucratic and unsuitable.
      In addition, there has been the general economic argument, advanced particularly by the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley). Associated with all this has been a certain amount of typical verbiage, which we get occasionally from right hon, and hon. Members of the Opposition, about persecution manias on the part of Socialists about the private motorist and so on. I do not notice it. That sort of argument does not advance the case that the Opposition are presenting.
      One of the matters which has evidently stimulated some of the concern expressed in the debate has been comment in the Press about certain proposals which it is stated the Government are considering. I wish that right hon. and hon. Members would wait until decisions are announced before accusing us of unsuitable policies. In answer to the hon. Member for
      1194
      Wycombe (Sir John Hall), I cannot make any statement about the matter.
      The hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. Steel) commented on the problem of minimum deliveries imposed by the oil companies. I shall be happy to ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy to look at this point and see whether we can make any comment.
      Sir John Hall: Would not the right. hon. Gentleman agree that the point of raising these matters before a decision is announced is to ensure that a decision is not announced?
      Mr. Dell: I thought that the hon. Gentleman had that in mind in raising the point. I was referring to the bitterness of his accusations rather than to the cautionary words that he thought it right to utter.
      The hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury advanced a general economic argument which, fortunately, he did not take to its absolutely logical conclusion. There is one point in his amendment which the hon. Gentleman did not argue, namely, why he is proposing a reduction from 25 per cent. to 15 per cent. I should have thought that the logic of the argument he presented was that it should be a general VAT rate reduced to 8 per cent. I can only take this moderation on his part in presenting his argument to represent a compromise between his wish to reduce the VAT rate and his wish not unduly to increase the public sector borrowing requirement. Although the hon. Gentleman did not inform us that that was the reason for his moderation, I take it so to be.
      The hon. Gentleman accused the Government of being illogical in increasing the price of one form of energy but continuing to subsidise electricity. The Government have indicated their intention and policy to end the subsidising of electricity.
      Mr. Lawson: When?
      Mr. Dell: The Government have announced their intention. A 30 per cent. increase is now being considered by the Price Commission.
      The hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury also attacked this proposal on the ground that the price of petrol was

      1195
      higher in Britain as a percentage of the average wage than it was in certain European countries. That may be true. The absolute price is certainly lower than it is in many European countries. On the other hand, I regret the fact, and I should have thought that the hon. Gentleman with his views would accept the fact, that it is, unfortunately, impossible to relate prices to the wealth per head of the population. The question we have to consider is whether this proposal is right on its own merits and not whether it changes the relationship between the price of a certain commodity and the average earnings in Britain.
      The hon. Gentleman argued about the irrelevance of the distinction that is so often drawn between the oil deficit and the non-oil deficit. We have to pay for both. That does not mean that it is not right in certain circumstances to take differential action in respect of one particular part of that deficit that has been forced upon us by the increase in the price of oil.
      Of course, the first objective of the increase in VAT on petrol has been to encourage economy in the use of petrol. I do not deny that the results of this measure are likely to be small, but the whole policy of energy conservation consists of bringing together a series of small savings with the intention of their together having some significant effect on the total problem. This helps with energy conservation. It helps, therefore, with the balance of Payments problem even if only to a small degree.
      There seems to be some sign that the use of the price mechanism in this way has led to some reductions in the consumption of motor spirit. For example, the Institute of Petroleum Retailers last December said that sales of motor spirit were down 4·4 per cent. or nearly 168 million gallons in the first nine months of last year compared with the corresponding figure for 1973. That may have been due to various factors, but among them I suggest is likely to have been the imposition of the 10 per cent. VAT on road fuel last March. More recently there have been figures in the national Press suggesting that 3½ per cent. less petrol has been purchased in Britain since the price increase in December. Therefore,
      1196
      there are savings; they may not be massive savings, but they are nevertheless of significance.
      Mr. Victor Goodhew: Is not petroleum a very small proportion of the total amount of oil used? Does this mean that there is a significant saving in the use of fuel oil in this country?
      Mr. Dell: Yes. I have said that I am not claiming that the savings as a result are large, but I pointed out that the whole programme of conservation consists of a number of actions taken by the Government which will lead to savings which, although small, will become appreciable in the total.
      The first objective of this measure is to encourage economy in the use of oil and so help the balance of payments. The second objective is to raise money and assist with the public sector borrowing requirement, on which hon. Members opposite so frequently comment. I know that the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury tried to meet this point by suggesting in the amendment that was not selected that there should be an increase in VAT from 8 per cent. to 9 per cent. But as it was not selected, I hope he will not tonight suggest imposing an even heavier public sector borrowing requirement on the Government. There is a serious practical objection to his proposal. If this amendment were passed, we would need to refund the difference between 15 per cent. and 25 per cent. since 18th December. I do not know how that would be done. It would create a serious practical problem.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Goole (Dr. Marshall) nevertheless raised the point of the impact of this increase in VAT on rural communities, and he said that there was a considerable problem with which he wished to deal. Many hon. Members have indicated that there are practical problems in what he proposed, and I think he appreciates that this is so. He himself suggested some ways out of these practical problems that had been put to him.
      For example, one way in which this suggestion of his might be tackled would be by issuing coupons to eligible persons for the 15 gallons. That could lead to abuse, and he therefore came to the conclusion that that was not a suitable ways

      1197
      of proceeding. He suggested as an alternative that the motorist himself could reclaim the sum of money which he had paid for the 15 gallons. I suggest that that still would be open to abuse. His proposal would assist better-off people as well as others, and it would particularly assist people with two houses, one in an urban area and one in a rural area, and who would no doubt choose from which address they bought their petrol.
      Nevertheless we are considering a two-tier system, as the House knows. My hon. Friend asked whether I could give any further information on that. I am afraid that I cannot give any further information at present. The consideration continues.
      Sir Anthony Meyer: In the interests of brevity, I did not intervene in the debate. At the same time as the right hon. Gentleman is giving consideration to the idea of two-tier pricing of petrol to resolve the admitted difficulties of rural areas, would he consider a much more simple solution, which is to make essential travel to work expenses liable for tax purposes? This would provide a flexible system and would enable the Inland Revenue authorities to allow such necessary travel work. In addition, it would not raise possible problems of definition which would arise with other two-tier systems.
      10.45 p.m.
      Mr. Dell: That proposal has been considered many times and I believe has been rejected by the Conservatives as well as by this Government.
      It has been announced that the Government are considering this problem. My
      right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment has said that consultations are going on with the bus companies and with local authorities to see in what ways the Government can help in relieving the problem which undoubtedly exists. In addition, there are the new bus grants and the relief of bus fuel tax which are contributions to dealing with this problem.
      I am not suggesting that we have solved this problem. The speeches from both sides of the House have shown that not to be the case. The consultations of the Secretary of State for the Environment are continuing and I hope that they will show results which we can present to the House.
      I reject my hon. Friend's proposal on the grounds of practicality. I reject that of the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury first, because of its cost, secondly, because of the impracticality of refunding money which would be due, and, thirdly, because it would be contrary to the Government's policy for energy conservation. I hope therefore that the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury will withdraw his amendment and that my hon. Friend will not press his. If not, I must ask my hon. and right hon. Friends to vote against the amendment.
      Mr. Ridley: In view of the inordinate length of the reply and in a desire to make progress, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Hon. Members: No.
      Question put, That the amendment be made:—
      The House divided: Ayes 54, Noes 275.

      Division No. 116.]

      AYES

      [10.48 p.m.

      Bain, Mrs Margaret

      Howells, Geraint (Cardigan)

      Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

      Brotherton, Michael

      Johnston, Russell (Inverness)

      Ross, William (Londonderry)

      Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton)

      Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

      Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)

      Corrie, John

      Latham, Michael (Melton)

      Spence, John

      Costain, A. P.

      Lawrence, Ivan

      Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)

      Craig, Rt Hon W. (Belfast E)

      Lester, Jim (Beeston)

      Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)

      Crawford, Douglas

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

      Durant, Tony

      MacCormick, Iain

      Thompson, George

      Emery, Peter

      McCusker, H.

      Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)

      Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen)

      Macfarlane, Neil

      Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek

      Ewing, Mrs Winifred (Moray)

      Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

      Watt, Hamish

      Fairbairn, Nicholas

      Molyneaux, James

      Welsh, Andrew

      Fry, Peter

      Morgan, Geraint

      Wigley, Dafydd

      Gardner, Edward (S Fylde)

      Morris, Michael (Northampton S)

      Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)

      Gower Sir Raymond (Barry)

      Mudd, David

      Winterton, Nicholas

      Grimond, Rt Hon J.

      Paisley, Rev Ian

      Grylls, Michael

      Penhaligon, David

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      Hawkins, Paul

      Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch

      Mr. A. J. Beith and

      Henderson Douglas

      Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

      Mr. David Steel.

      Hooson, Emlyn

      NOES

      Abse, Leo

      Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

      Marquand, David

      Allaun, Frank

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

      Anderson, Donald

      Foot, Rt Hon Michael

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Archer, Peter

      Ford, Ben

      Mason, Rt Hon Roy

      Armstrong, Ernest

      Forrester, John

      Meacher, Michael

      Ashton, Joe

      Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin)

      Mellish, Rt Hon Robert

      Atkins, Ronald (Preston N)

      Fraser John (Lambeth, N'w'd)

      Mikardo, Ian

      Bagier, Gordon A. T.

      Freeson, Reginald

      Millan, Bruce

      Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

      Garrett, John (Norwich S)

      Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)

      Barnett, Rt Hon Joel

      Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)

      Miller, Mrs Millie (Ilford N)

      Bates, Alf

      Gilbert Dr John

      Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen)

      Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N)

      Ginsburg, David

      Molloy, William

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Golding, John

      Moonman, Eric

      Bishop, E. S.

      Gould, Bryan

      Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      Gourlay, Harry

      Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

      Boardman, H.

      Graham, Ted

      Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

      Booth, Albert

      Grant, John (Islington C)

      Moyle, Roland

      Boothroyd, Miss Betty

      Grocott, Bruce

      Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

      Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur

      Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)

      Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King

      Boyden, James (Bish Auck)

      Hamling, William

      Newens, Stanley

      Bradley, Tom

      Hardy, Peter

      Noble, Mike

      Bray, Dr Jeremy

      Harper, Joseph

      Oakes, Gordon

      Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

      Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

      Ogden, Eric

      Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)

      Hart, Rt Hon Judith

      O'Halloran, Michael

      Brown, Ronald (Hackney S)

      Hatton, Frank

      O'Malley, Rt Hon Brian

      Buchan, Norman

      Hayman, Mrs Helene

      Orbach, Maurice

      Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)

      Healey, Rt Hon Denis

      Ovenden, John

      Campbell, Ian

      Heffer, Eric S.

      Owen, Dr David

      Canavan, Dennis

      Hooley, Frank

      Padley, Walter

      Cant, R. B.

      Horam, John

      Palmer, Arthur

      Carmichael, Neil

      Howell, Denis (B'ham, Sm H)

      Park, George

      Carter, Ray

      Hoyle, Doug (Nelson)

      Parker, John

      Carter-Jones, Lewis

      Huckfield, Les

      Parry, Robert

      Castle, Rt Hon Barbara

      Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey)

      Pendry, Tom

      Clemitson, Ivor

      Hughes, Mark (Durham)

      Perry, Ernest

      Cocks, Michael (Bristol S)

      Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

      Phipps, Dr Colin

      Cohen, Stanley

      Hughes, Roy (Newport)

      Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

      Coleman, Donald

      Hunter, Adam

      Prescott, John

      Colquhoun, Mrs Maureen

      Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford)

      Price, C. (Lewisham W)

      Concannon, J. D.

      Jackson, Colin (Brighouse)

      Price, William (Rugby)

      Conlan, Bernard

      Jackson Miss Margaret (Lincoln)

      Radice, Giles

      Cook, Robin F. (Edin C)

      Janner, Greville

      Richardson, Miss Jo

      Corbett, Robin

      Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

      Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

      Cox, Thomas (Tooting)

      Jeger, Mrs Lena

      Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)

      Craigen, J. M. (Maryhill)

      Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

      Robertson, John (Paisley)

      Cronin, John

      John Brynmor

      Roderick, Caerwyn

      Crosland, Rt Hon Anthony

      Johnson, James (Hull West)

      Rodgers, George (Chorley)

      Cryer, Bob

      Johnson, Walter (Derby S)

      Rodgers, William (Stockton)

      Cunningham, G. (Islington S)

      Jones, Alec (Rhondda)

      Rooker, J. W.

      Cunningham, Dr. J. (Whiteh)

      Jones, Barry (East Flint)

      Roper, John

      Dalyell, Tam

      Jones, Dan (Burnley)

      Rose, Paul B.

      Davidson, Arthur

      Judd, Frank

      Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock)

      Davies, Bryan (Enfield N)

      Kaufman, Gerald

      Rowlands, Ted

      Davies, Denzil (Llanelli)

      Kelley Richard

      Ryman, John

      Davies, Ifor (Gower)

      Kerr, Russell

      Sandelson, Neville

      Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)

      Kilroy-Silk, Robert

      Sedgemore, Brian

      Deakins, Eric

      Kinnock, Neil

      Selby, Harry

      Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

      Lambie, David

      Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South)

      de Freitas, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

      Lamborn, Harry

      Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne)

      Dell, Rt Hon Edmund

      Lamond, James

      Short, Rt Hon E. (Newcastle C)

      Dempsey, James

      Latham, Arthur (Paddington)

      Short, Mrs Renée (Wolv NE)

      Doig, Peter

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)

      Dormand, J. D.

      Lee, John

      Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)

      Douglas-Mann, Bruce

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Sillars, James

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Lipton, Marcus

      Silverman, Julius

      Dunn, James A.

      Litterick, Tom

      Skinner, Dennis

      Dunnett, Jack

      Loyden, Eddie

      Small, William

      Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

      Luard, Evan

      Smith, John (N Lanarkshire)

      Eadie, Alex

      Lyon, Alexander (York)

      Snape, Peter

      Edelman, Maurice

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)

      Spearing, Nigel

      Edge, Geoff

      Mabon, Dr J. Dickson

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE)

      McCartney, Hugh

      Stallard, A. W.

      Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun)

      MacFarquhar, Roderick

      Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham)

      Ellis, Tom (Wrexham)

      McGuire, Michael (Ince)

      Stoddart, David

      English, Michael

      Mackenzie, Gregor

      Stott, Roger

      Ennals, David

      Mackintosh, John P.

      Strang, Gavin

      Evans, Ioan (Aberdare)

      Maclennan, Robert

      Strauss, Rt Hon G. R.

      Evans, John (Newton)

      McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)

      Swain, Thomas

      Ewing, Harry (Stirling)

      McNamara, Kevin

      Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

      Faulds, Andrew

      Madden, Max

      Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

      Fernyhough, Rt Hon E.

      Magee, Bryan

      Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)

      Flannery, Martin

      Marks, Kenneth

      Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)

      1200

      1201

      Thorne, Stan (Preston South)

      Watkinson, John

      Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

      Tierney, Sydney

      Weitzman, David

      Wilson, Rt Hon H. (Huyton)

      Tinn, James

      Wellbeloved, James

      Wilson, William (Coventry SE)

      Tomlinson, John

      White, Frank R. (Bury)

      Wise, Mrs Audrey

      Torney, Tom

      White, James (Pollok)

      Woodall, Alec

      Urwin, T. W.

      Whitehead, Phillip

      Wrigglesworth, Ian

      Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)

      Whitlock, William

      Young, David (Bolton E)

      Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

      Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

      Walker, Terry (Kingswood)

      Williams, Alan (Swansea W)

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      Ward, Michael

      Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford)

      Mr. James Hamilton and

      Watkins, David

      Williams, W. T. (Warringon)

      Mr. Laurie Pavitt.

      Question accordingly negatived.

    Clause 3

      RELIEF FOR "DO-IT-YOURSELF" BUILDERS
      11.0 p.m.
      Mr. Graham Page: I beg to move Amendment No. 332, in page 3, line 1, leave out lines 1 to 5 and insert—

      '(a) is made within such reasonable time and in such appropriate form and manner, and

      (b) contains such relevant information, and

      (c) is accompanied by such available evidential documents'.

      Clause 3 gives relief from VAT to "do-it-yourself" builders—at least, that is what the marginal note to the clause says—[Interruption.]
      Mr. Speaker: Order. Will the hon. Members please stop their conversations and listen to the right hon. Gentleman?
      Mr. Page: I am obliged, Mr. Speaker. Since the amendment relates to "do-it-yourself" matters, I was trying to do it myself and make myself heard.
      It is strange that Clause 3 introduces Clause 15A into the Finance Act 1972 but puts another marginal note to the new clause, namely,
      "Refund of tax to persons constructing new homes otherwise than in the course of a business".
      We are therefore dealing, not with the amateur who builds for himself, but with a person who may well build voluntarily for a member of his family or a relative—perhaps a bungalow for grandpa at the bottom of his garden.
      The amendment deals with regulations under which the refund of tax may be claimed. It therefore deals with subsection (2) of the new Clause 15A. Subsection (2) gives the Commissioners of Inland Revenue very wide and very vague powers to make regulations—too wide and too vague. When the House gives a Minister power to legislate by order, it
      1202
      should take the greatest care to define that power carefully and to specify clearly its limitations, particularly when the power is given, not to a specific Minister, but, as in this case, to the commissioners. The power should clearly relate to the purpose for which it is given and it should go no further than is necessary for that purpose.
      That is why in the amendment I propose that when a person claims relief of VAT because he is building a dwellinghouse and he is not in the trade of a builder he should be required only to make the claim within reasonable time, that he should be required to make it in appropriate form and in appropriate manner, that he should be required to give only relevant information, and that he should be required to submit with it only available evidential documents.
      If the power to make regulations went as wide as it does in the Bill it might nullify the right to relief by requiring impossible or impertinent information or non-existent documents. Secondly, it might be objectionable by prying into family arrangements under which the dwellinghouse is being constructed.
      I put the case shortly, but it is a matter of constitutional importance because the power of delegated legislation should be specifically defined in any parent statute.
      The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Dr. John Gilbert): I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Page) for the dispassionate way in which, as usual, he has moved the amendment. Like the passage in the Bill which it seeks to replace, the amendment has three paragraphs. I join the right hon. Gentleman in the sentiments he expressed in respect of the first two paragraphs. The requirements that the claim be made in a reasonable time, that it be made in an appropriate form and manner and that it contain relevant information are not matters I wish to dispute with him. It is self-evident that that is the manner in which the regulations made by the

      1203
      Commissioners would run. If the right hon. Gentleman is not satisfied with that assurance from me, to reassure him I will spell out certain safeguards that are available.
      However, when one comes to paragraph (c) one runs up against difficulties. The right hon. Gentleman seeks to import into the Bill that the documents shall be both available and evidential. By introducing a restriction of that sort the inference is to be drawn that a claimant could submit a claim for an amount substantially in excess of that for which there was documentary supporting evidence. If the right hon. Gentleman ponders that for a moment I am sure he will see that it would make the task of Customs and Excise in policing claims for refunds under the Bill a virtual impossibility.
      The amendment requires that documents accompanying a claim should all be evidential—to use his word. Customs would intend such a requirement to apply to the bulk of the documents. However, in certain circumstances Customs might require supplementary information to deal quickly and economically with a claim. Here again I must part company with the right hon. Gentleman.
      All regulations for claims would have to be made by means of a statutory instrument which would always be subject to the negative procedure of the House. If the House were not satisfied that the regulations required that the claim be made in reasonable time and in proper manner and that it contained relevant information, it would always be open to the House to negative the resolution.
      I hope that I have said enough to reassure the right hon. Gentleman that there is no issue between us on the first two-thirds of the amendment. The last part probably goes rather wider than the right hon. Gentleman intends, and I cannot recommend it to my hon. Friends.
      Sir G. Howe: I appreciate the Financial Secretary's endeavour to approach the amendment in a reasonable fashion. It is not one of overwhelming importance but nevertheless it goes to some practical points to which my right hon. Friend has drawn attention.
      I cannot advise my hon. and right hon. Friends that I am satisfied with the hon. Gentleman's reply. He seeks to reassure us by saying that paragraphs (a) and (b) are unnecessary becauses they will always happen anyway, which is a good reason for accepting that part of the amendment. The Financial Secretary went on to assert that paragraph (c) could lead to inflated claims being made and let through. I see no reason to join him in reaching that conclusion.
      He says that the form presently contained in the Bill is necessary to enable supplementary information which might be required by the authorities to be delivered. That again does not follow. Any supplementary information could be obtained under subpara (b) of the amendment. In those circumstances, the important point raised by subpara (c) of the amendment cannot be dealt with sufficiently merely by asserting that the negative resolution procedure will allow this House to deal with the matter properly.
      If the business of the Government coming before this House continues to be handled as it has been so far, we can place little reliance on the validity of the negative resolution procedure for protecting the rights of citizens. In those circumstances, I must advise my right hon. Friends that the assurances given by the Financial Secretary are quite insufficient and invite them to join me in supporting the amendment.
      Question put, That the amendment be made:—
      The House divided: Ayes 247, Noes 274.

      Division No. 117.]

      AYES

      [11.11 p.m.

      Adley, Robert

      Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham)

      Brittan, Leon

      Aitken, Jonathan

      Benyon, W.

      Brotherton, Michael

      Alison, Michael

      Berry, Hon Anthony

      Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

      Amery, Rt Hon Julian

      Biffen, John

      Bryan, Sir Paul

      Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne)

      Biggs-Davison, John

      Buchanan-Smith, Alick

      Awdry, Daniel

      Blaker, Peter

      Buck, Antony

      Baker, Kenneth

      Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown)

      Budgen, Nick

      Banks, Robert

      Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent)

      Bulmer, Esmond

      Beith, A. J.

      Braine, Sir Bernard

      Carlisle, Mark

      Chalker, Mrs Lynda

      Howells, Geraint (Cardigan)

      Peyton, Rt Hon John

      Churchill, W. S.

      Hurd, Douglas

      Pink, R. Bonner

      Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton)

      James, David

      Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch

      Clark, William (Croydon S)

      Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd & W'df'd)

      Pym, Rt Hon Francis

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Jessel, Toby

      Rathbone, Tim

      Clegg, Walter

      Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead)

      Rawlinson, Rt Hon Sir Peter

      Cockcroft, John

      Jones Arthur (Daventry)

      Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal)

      Cooke, Robert (Bristol W)

      Jopling, Michael

      Rees-Davies, W. R.

      Cope, John

      Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith

      Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts)

      Corrie, John

      Kaberry, Sir Donald

      Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex)

      Costain, A. P.

      Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

      Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

      Craig, Rt Hon W. (Belfast E)

      Kershaw, Anthony

      Ridley, Hon Nicholas

      Crouch, David

      Kimball, Marcus

      Ridsdale, Julian

      Crowder, F. P.

      King, Evelyn (South Dorset)

      Rifkind, Malcolm

      Davies, Rt Hon J. (Knutsford)

      King, Tom (Bridgwater)

      Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey

      Dean, Paul (N Somerset)

      Kirk, Peter

      Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)

      Dodsworth, Geoffrey

      Kitson, Sir Timothy

      Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

      Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

      Knight, Mrs Jill

      Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

      du Cann, Rt Hon Edward

      Lamont, Norman

      Ross, William (Londonderry)

      Durant, Tony

      Lane, David

      Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

      Eden, Rt Hon Sir John

      Langford-Holt, Sir John

      Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire)

      Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

      Latham, Michael (Melton)

      Royle, Sir Anthony

      Elliott, Sir William

      Lawrence, Ivan

      Sainsbury, Tim

      Emery, Peter

      Lawson, Nigel

      St. John-Stevas, Norman

      Eyre, Reginald

      Le Marchant, Spencer

      Scott, Nicholas

      Fairbairn, Nicholas

      Lester, Jim (Beeston)

      Scott-Hopkins, James

      Fairgrieve, Russell

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)

      Farr, John

      Loveridge, John

      Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)

      Fell, Anthony

      Luce, Richard

      Shelton, William (Streatham)

      Finsberg Geoffrey

      McCrindle, Robert

      Shepherd, Colin

      Fisher, Sir Nigel

      McCusker, H.

      Shersby, Michael

      Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N)

      Macfarlane, Neil

      Sims, Roger

      Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

      MacGregor, John

      Sinclair, Sir George

      Fowler Norman (Sutton C'f'd)

      Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham)

      Skeet, T. H. H.

      Fox, Marcus

      McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury)

      Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)

      Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St)

      Madel, David

      Smith, Dudley (Warwick)

      Fry, Peter

      Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

      Speed, Keith

      Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

      Marten, Neil

      Spence, John

      Gardiner, George (Reigate)

      Mather, Carol

      Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)

      Gardner, Edward (S Fylde)

      Maude, Angus

      Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)

      Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham)

      Maudling, Rt Hon Reginald

      Sproat, Iain

      Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

      Mawby, Ray

      Stanbrook, Ivor

      Glyn, Dr Alan

      Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

      Stanley, John

      Goodhew, Victor

      Mayhew, Patrick

      Steel, David (Roxburgh)

      Goodlad, Alastair

      Meyer, Sir Anthony

      Steen, Anthony (Wavertree)

      Gorst, John

      Mills, Peter

      Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)

      Gow, Ian (Eastbourne)

      Miscampbell, Norman

      Stokes, John

      Gower Sir Raymond (Barry)

      Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

      Stradling Thomas, J.

      Grant, Anthony (Harrow C)

      Moate, Roger

      Taylor, R. (Croydon NW)

      Gray, Hamish

      Molyneaux, James

      Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)

      Grieve, Percy

      Monro, Hector

      Tebbit, Norman

      Griffiths, Eldon

      Montgomery, Fergus

      Temple-Morris, Peter

      Grist, Ian

      Moore, John (Croydon C)

      Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret

      Grylls, Michael

      More, Jasper (Ludlow)

      Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)

      Hall, Sir John

      Morgan, Geraint

      Townsend, Cyril D.

      Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

      Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral

      Trotter, Neville

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Morris, Michael (Northampton S)

      Tugendhat, Christopher

      Hampson Dr Keith

      Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

      van Straubenzee, W. R.

      Hannam, John

      Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester)

      Vaughan, Dr Gerard

      Mudd, David

      Viggers, Peter

      Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye)

      Nelson, Anthony

      Wakeham, John

      Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss

      Neubert, Michael

      Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek

      Hastings, Stephen

      Newton, Tony

      Walters, Dennis

      Havers, Sir Michael

      Normanton, Tom

      Warren, Kenneth

      Hawkins, Paul

      Nott, John

      Weatherill, Bernard

      Hayhoe Barney

      Onslow, Cranley

      Wells, John

      Heseltine, Michael

      Oppenheim, Mrs Sally

      Whitelaw, Rt Hon William

      Hicks, Robert

      Osborn, John

      Wiggin, Jerry

      Higgins, Terence L.

      Page, John (Harrow West)

      Winterton, Nicholas

      Holland, Philip

      Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)

      Wood, Rt Hon Richard

      Hooson, Emlyn

      Paisley, Rev Ian

      Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton)

      Hordern, Peter

      Parkinson, Cecil

      Howe Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

      Pattie, Geoffrey

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      Howell, David (Guildford)

      Penhaligon, David

      Mr. Adam Butler and

      Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

      Percival, Ian

      Mr. Fred Silvester.

      NOES

      Abse, Leo

      Atkins, Ronald (Preston N)

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Allaun, Frank

      Bagier, Gordon A. T.

      Bishop, E. S.

      Anderson, Donald

      Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      Archer, Peter

      Barnett, Rt Hon Joel

      Boardman, H.

      Armstrong, Ernest

      Bates, Alf

      Booth, Albert

      Ashton, Joe

      Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N)

      Boothroyd, Miss Betty

      1206

      1207

      Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur

      Hardy, Peter

      Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

      Boyden, James (Bish Auck)

      Harper, Joseph

      Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King

      Bradley, Tom

      Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

      Newens, Stanley

      Bray, Dr Jeremy

      Hart, Rt Hon Judith

      Noble, Mike

      Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

      Hatton, Frank

      Oakes, Gordon

      Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)

      Hayman, Mrs Helene

      Ogden, Eric

      Brown, Ronald (Hackney S)

      Healey, Rt Hon Denis

      O'Halloran, Michael

      Buchan, Norman

      Heffer, Eric S.

      O'Malley, Rt Hon Brian

      Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)

      Hooley, Frank

      Orbach, Maurice

      Campbell, Ian

      Horam, John

      Ovenden, John

      Canavan, Dennis

      Howell, Denis (B'ham, Sm H)

      Owen, Dr David

      Cant, R. B.

      Hoyle, Doug (Nelson)

      Padley, Walter

      Carmichael, Neil

      Huckfield, Les

      Palmer, Arthur

      Carter, Ray

      Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey)

      Park, George

      Carter-Jones, Lewis

      Hughes, Mark (Durham)

      Parker, John

      Castle, Rt Hon Barbara

      Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

      Parry, Robert

      Clemitson, Ivor

      Hughes, Roy (Newport)

      Pavitt, Laurie

      Cocks, Michael (Bristol S)

      Hunter, Adam

      Pendry, Tom

      Cohen, Stanley

      Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford)

      Perry, Ernest

      Coleman, Donald

      Jackson, Colin (Brighouse)

      Phipps, Dr Colin

      Colquhoun, Mrs Maureen

      Jackson Miss Margaret (Lincoln)

      Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

      Concannon, J. D.

      Janner, Greville

      Prescott, John

      Conlan, Bernard

      Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

      Price, C. (Lewisham W)

      Cook, Robin F. (Ed'n C)

      Jeger, Mrs Lena

      Price, William (Rugby)

      Corbett, Robin

      Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

      Radice, Giles

      Cox, Thomas (Tooting)

      Jenkins, Rt Hon Roy (Stechford)

      Richardson, Miss Jo

      Craigen, J. M. (Maryhill)

      John Brynmor

      Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

      Crosland, Rt Hon Anthony

      Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)

      Cryer, Bob

      Johnson, James (Hull West)

      Robertson, John (Paisley)

      Cunningham, G. (Islington S)

      Johnson, Walter (Derby S)

      Roderick, Caerwyn

      Cunningham, Dr. J. (Whiteh)

      Jones, Alec (Rhondda)

      Rodgers, George (Chorley)

      Dalyell, Tam

      Jones, Barry (East Flint)

      Rodgers, William (Stockton)

      Davidson, Arthur

      Jones, Dan (Burnley)

      Rooker, J. W.

      Davies, Bryan (Enfield N)

      Judd, Frank

      Roper, John

      Davies, Denzil (Llanelli)

      Kaufman, Gerald

      Rose, Paul B.

      Davies, Ifor (Gower)

      Kelley Richard

      Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock)

      Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)

      Kerr, Russell

      Rowlands, Ted

      Deakins, Eric

      Kilroy-Silk, Robert

      Ryman, John

      Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

      Kinnock, Neil

      Sandelson, Neville

      de Freitas, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

      Lambie, David

      Sedgemore, Brian

      Dell, Rt Hon Edmund

      Lamborn, Harry

      Selby, Harry

      Dempsey, James

      Lamond, James

      Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South)

      Doig, Peter

      Latham, Arthur (Paddington)

      Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne)

      Douglas-Mann, Bruce

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Short, Rt Hon E. (Newcastle C)

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Lee, John

      Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)

      Dunn, James A.

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)

      Dunnett, Jack

      Lipton, Marcus

      Sillars, James

      Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

      Litterick, Tom

      Silverman, Julius

      Eadie, Alex

      Loyden, Eddie

      Skinner, Dennis

      Edelman, Maurice

      Luard, Evan

      Small, William

      Edge, Geoff

      Lyon, Alexander (York)

      Smith, John (N Lanarkshire)

      Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE)

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)

      Snape, Peter

      Ellis, Tom (Wrexham)

      Mabon, Dr J. Dickson

      Spearing, Nigel

      English, Michael

      McCartney, Hugh

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Ennals, David

      MacFarquhar, Roderick

      Stallard, A. W.

      Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen)

      McGuire, Michael (Ince)

      Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham)

      Evans, Ioan (Aberdare)

      Mackenzie, Gregor

      Stoddart, David

      Evans, John (Newton)

      Mackintosh, John P.

      Stott, Roger

      Ewing, Harry (Stirling)

      Maclennan, Robert

      Strang, Gavin

      Fernyhough, Rt Hon E.

      McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)

      Strauss, Rt Hon G. R.

      Flannery, Martin

      McNamara, Kevin

      Swain, Thomas

      Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

      Madden, Max

      Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      Magee, Bryan

      Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

      Foot, Rt Hon Michael

      Marks, Kenneth

      Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

      Ford, Ben

      Marquand, David

      Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)

      Forrester, John

      Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

      Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)

      Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin)

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Thorne, Stan (Preston South)

      Fraser John (Lambeth, N'w'd)

      Mason, Rt Hon Roy

      Tierney, Sydney

      Freeson, Reginald

      Meacher, Michael

      Tinn, James

      Garrett, John (Norwich S)

      Mellish, Rt Hon Robert

      Tomlinson, John

      Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)

      Mikardo, Ian

      Torney, Tom

      Gilbert Dr John

      Millan, Bruce

      Urwin, T. W.

      Ginsburg, David

      Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)

      Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)

      Golding, John

      Miller, Mrs Millie (Ilford N)

      Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

      Gould, Bryan

      Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen)

      Walker, Terry (Kingswood)

      Gourlay, Harry

      Molloy, William

      Ward, Michael

      Graham, Ted

      Moonman, Eric

      Watkins, David

      Grant, John (Islington C)

      Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

      Watkinson, John

      Grocott, Bruce

      Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

      Weitzman, David

      Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

      Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

      Wellbeloved, James

      Hamling, William

      Moyle, Roland

      White, Frank R. (Bury)

      1208

      1209

      White, James (Pollok)

      Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford)

      Wrigglesworth, Ian

      Whitehead, Phillip

      Williams, W. T. (Warringon)

      Young, David (Bolton E)

      Whitlock, William

      Wilson, Rt Hon H. (Huyton)

      Wigley, Dafydd

      Wilson, William (Coventry SE)

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES

      Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

      Wise, Mrs Audrey

      Mr. J. D. Dormand and

      Williams, Alan (Swansea W)

      Woodall, Alec

      Mr. John Ellis.

      Question accordingly negatived.
      Mr. Joel Barnett: I beg to move,
      That further consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned.
      Sir G. Howe: That motion being moved at this time of night is quite unnecessary, extraordinary and intolerable. We have had a series of useful debates on important aspects of these early clauses. We have a number of further amendments down to Parts I, II and IV which have to be considered before we have to move on to consideration of Part III and the capital transfer tax.
      In the light of what the Leader of the House said earlier it is plain that on no possible footing could we be ready to move to consideration of Part III before Wednesday. He told the House earlier today that there was available to hon. Members by that stage a full set of the amendments tabled to Part III. I rushed out with excitement to look for them, only to find the same rag-bag set of Xeroxed documents and nothing else, with no semblance of order about them—most of them, indeed, without numbers. It is quite wrong even for this Leader of the House to suggest that it would have been possible to move on to consideration of Part III during tomorrow.
      In those circumstances, by the standards set by the Leader of the House himself, we would be able to take, as we should take, the rest of today and all of tomorrow to consider Parts I, II and IV. We are perfectly prepared, as we should be, to proceed tonight, through the night if necessary.
      Quite apart from the provisions being debated on Part I, we shall be coming shortly to the attempt by the Government to reintroduce their changes in the level of investment income surcharge in Clause 5—an attempt which was rightly defeated last summer. They were not prepared to accept that as a defeat but are seeking yet again to introduce that provision, without considering the changes we suggested
      There is no reason for these proceedings to be adjourned at this stage. We
      1210
      cannot understand what possible reason the Chief Secretary can have for this motion. If I may suggest a reason, however, it is that the Government themselves are so beset by their ignorance and lack of preparation of the amendments that they are seeking to make to Part III that they need all the time that they can get between now and dawn tomorrow, not to consider the amendments which we should now be moving but to make some kind of sense and order of the important proposals which they are still in course of tabling to Part III.
      All this is a quite intolerable procedure. My hon. Friends are here, ready and willing to proceed to discussion of the amendments now on the paper. I suggest that we should have absolutely no use for the motion but should declare our willingness to proceed to further debate, through the night if necessary, on this Part of the Bill.
      Mr. Ridley: It is very odd to find the Government moving a motion of this sort at this stage. It is normally the Opposition who move such a motion, and I commend my right hon. and hon. Friends for not having done so hitherto. During all the proceedings in Committee there was only one motion to adjourn the proceedings, although we had five all-night sittings. This is ample evidence of the Opposition's desire—nay, determination—to ensure that enough time is given to consideration of the Bill, without dilatory motions.
      It is absolutely amazing that the Government should at this stage move a dilatory motion themselves. We have hardly started on consideration of the Bill, and already they seem to have no stomach for the fight. If necessary, we could provide camp beds as we did in Committee for Government supporters who do not feel able to withstand the all-night sittings which would be necessary to make progress with the Bill.
      I very much want to get on to the capital transfer tax. I believe that with a little bit of a late night tonight and a normal sitting tomorrow we could deal with Parts I, II and IV easily by tomorrow night. That would leave us three days

      1211
      for consideration of the capital transfer tax.
      11.30 p.m.
      I have made only one short speech in the debate today so far, for the reason that I wanted to see the House make progress towards Part III. It would be only right and proper to give the Opposition the opportunity to continue the debate tonight so that we can dispense with another 10 or 12 amendments and then we could complete the earlier parts of the Bill by tomorrow night, leaving the House fresh and clear to start on the capital transfer tax on Wednesday.
      If the motion is accepted by the House, that will not be possible. It means that the Opposition, having put themselves out, got their amendments tabled and accepted the extreme inconvenience of having to discuss amendments which are not properly tabled, which are not on the printed Order Paper and which they have not had time to consult about, are now to be stopped.
      The Government's handling of the Bill has been one of the great parliamentary disgraces of the century. I hope that the Leader of the House, who apparently has been attending other functions, will not feel proud of his conduct of the Bill. I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer feels a bit ashamed of himself, because this is the first time he has listened to a debate on the Bill since he introduced Clause 17 a month ago and discovered that the private sector did not plant all the oaks and that one did not have to have a tenancy of one's mother-in-law if one asked her to live in one's house without it being charged as a chargeable transfer.
      The Chancellor has never understood this tax. He has never taken any part in the proceedings on this tax, and it is to me quite revolting that the two right hon. Gentlemen come along to the House tonight to adjourn our proceedings at this stage when my right hon. and hon. Friends have been working through the day trying to improve the Bill, as we worked in Committee trying to improve it, and then, just because the two right hon. Gentlemen are tired and they think it is time to go to bed, they move a dilatory motion.
      1212
      A dilatory motion is normally the weapon used by an Opposition, and I shall not say anything more on it now. I know that my hon. Friends will not listen to me, but I advise them all not to talk on this motion but to ask the Government to withdraw it so that we may make progress on the Bill, as we have always sought to do, and complete Parts I, II and IV by the end of tomorrow night, and then we can proceed in an orderly fashion to capital transfer tax. For the Government now, having mucked up their amendments and got their Bill badly drafted, to come and filibuster the Bill by moving a dilatory motion is the last straw.
      Mr. Graham Page: This is the most extraordinary motion for the Government to bring forward at this time of the evening. We had 135 hours in Committee, and not one debate was closured in Committee. We were constructive in Committee. We have been constructive today. Nobody could say that the last motion was filibustering. I moved it in about three minutes. We had a short reply from the Financial Secretary and then we divided. We want to get on with the Bill. Apparently the Government do not.
      Will the Chief Secretary, the Leader of the House or the Chancellor of the Exchequer come clean with the House? What is the plan behind this? Is it intended that we should spend a very long time on Parts I, II and IV so that we do not reach the capital transfer tax, which we want to debate, or is the plan in some way to curtail us by a guillotine? May we be told?
      Mr. Gow: Is it not disgraceful for the Chief Secretary to put a motion of this kind to the House at such a very early hour of the evening without giving the House any explanation of the reason why he is moving it?
      Ought not either the Chief Secretary or the Leader of the House to tell us plainly why the Chief Secretary is moving the motion tonight? Why is there no explanation why the motion has been moved? Why is it that after the Chief Secretary himself complained about the three-hour debate earlier today he is now saying that there should be no further

      1213
      debate this evening? The Opposition are very happy to go on debating this all through the night, and we regard it as typical of the contempt and arrogance with which the Government Front Bench treats the House that it should seek to curtail our debate without any explanation.
      Will the Chief Secretary tell the House exactly what he has in mind for the future timetable for debating the Report stage of the Bill? Will he tell us clearly, and without equivocation?
      Mr. John Peyton rose—
      Mr. Ted Leadbitter: The man with 11 votes.
      Mr. Peyton: The hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr. Leadbitter) has always been very good at humour. I have all the time in the world, and if he can find anybody to laugh at him tonight he will be lucky.
      I want to recapitulate. The Leader of the House—we are glad to see him tonight; obviously he is surprised to find himself here—promised us five days' debate on Report. Subsequently a legion of amendments were put down by the Government as well as by my right hon. and hon. Friends. They were published only a few days ago—some of them were published only today—without any adequate time either for people in this House to consider them or—the Leader of the House has persistently ignored this—for many people outside the House who are interest—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Why jeer at that? Many people outside the House who live in this country are under the mistaken impression that they have some rights which will be respected by the House of Commons and the Government. They have still to learn the bitter lesson that they are wrong, and that under this Government they have very few rights.
      The concern of my right hon. and hon. Friends is that no adequate time has been given, first, to consider the ill-conceived proposals of the Government and, secondly, to give mature consideration to amendments proposed in considerable haste and in respect of which there is no ground for confidence that they are well-founded. After a few hours of the Report stage promised by the Government, they
      1214
      suddenly move this motion, with an apparent air of disappointment. Anyone would think, reflecting upon the way it is done, that they have endured too many hours of discussion on the Report stage. But not at all. The answer, of course, is under a very thin gossamer veil. Here is the horror. The fact is that the Leader of the House and his right hon. Friends have already put into the Table Office a Finance Bill (Allocation of Time) Motion.
      The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary, if he had sought to be candid with the House—which of course he did not—in the course of moving the motion, might have told the House what the Government's intention was. But he did not. He sought to conceal it.
      Mr. Joel Barnett indicated dissent.
      Mr. Peyton: It would be hard for us to believe that the right hon. Gentleman had been kept in the dark by his colleagues as to the existence of this new motion. Although we know that he is not aware of a great deal, we nevertheless are prepared to credit him with knowledge of his colleagues' intentions.
      Now I turn to the very disagreeable subject of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House.
      Mr. Ted Graham: Make it short.
      Mr. Peyton: I wish I could. I must tell the Leader of the House, from whom is always expected some show of responsibility and concern for the rights of the House as a whole, that when he achieved the high position that he now has, very few of my right hon. or hon. Friends had a lot of confidence but we hoped for the best. In the face of this shabby and ill-conceived manoeuvre, we have none at all. We believe that he has manifested not only his own character but his own total contempt for the House of Commons and his utter lack of concern for those who do not agree with him and who do not endorse his rather unpleasant views. [Interruption.] If the Leader of the House wishes to interrupt me, I shall gladly give way. But I must tell him now—and I speak for everyone on the Opposition side of the House—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—that we have no confidence in his judgment and less in his good faith.
      11.45 p.m.
      Mr. Goodhew rose—
      The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Robert Mellish): Why did you not—[Interruption.]
      Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Oscar Murton): It would be appropriate if the House attempted to conduct itself more peaceably.
      Mr. Goodhew: The Government Front Bench is treating the House with considerable contempt. We are entitled to an explanation from somebody on the Treasury Bench in support of the motion. [Interruption.] We do not need an explanation by the comrade from Bolsover.
      Only last Thursday we heard from the Leader of the House how anxious he was to get his business through by 14th March. Now, although we have been discussing these matters for only a short while, the Chief Secretary has moved a motion without a word of explanation. Perhaps the Chief Secretary is embarrassed by this situation. I should not be in the least surprised if he were embarrassed, although he shakes his head in denial. However, even if he is embarrassed, the House is entitled to a statement from the Leader of the House.
      In my 15 years in the House I cannot remember a Leader of the House who treated the House with such contempt as this one has. He has been thoroughly unsympathetic to the interests of back benchers. Instead of coming here tonight wearing his black tie and yawning his head off, as he has for the past few minutes, he should have sought to explain—[Interruption.] It is no good hon. Members opposite waving at me and threatening me. I have no anxiety to prolong these proceedings. I think that the proceedings arise in a disgraceful way. If hon. Members continue to make such signals at me, I shall treat them with the contempt they deserve. Let them wave at their floosies but not at me.
      I hope that the Leader of the House, having behaved as he has over the past week, will now have the good grace to explain to back benchers on both sides what he is up to.
      Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Oscar Murton): The Question is, That further consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned.
      Sir G. Howe: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Since the Question has not been put—
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The Question has been put.
      Sir G. Howe: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. How can you say that the Question has been put when you have not collected the voices from either side of the House? Neither side of the House has been able to assert either "Aye" or "No".
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: As there appears to be some belief that the voices were not collected, I shall put the Question again.
      Hon. Members: No.
      Sir G. Howe: For this Question to be the subject of a vote when we have not heard one word of explanation from the Government and when a number of my right hon. and hon. Friends have put question after question—
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman addressing the Chair on a point of order?
      Sir G. Howe: Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My first point of order is that hon. Members should be invited to resume their seats. My second point is that although the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary moved the motion with unusual brevity for him—
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. It is impossible for the Chair to hear the point of order if other hon. Members are speaking.
      Sir G. Howe: The motion has been moved. It is before the House, not as a result of any action by the Leader of the House or the Government, but because the Government have tabled a timetable motion—in short, a guillotine motion. They have made manifest the reasons why they are seeking to move the motion for further consideration. When are the Government going to come clean with the House and say something about the time table motion?
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: There appears still to be a misunderstanding. I have put the Question—
      Hon. Members: No.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: I was in the process of putting the Question, and that is what I intend now to do.
      Several Hon. Members rose—
      Sir G. Howe: The point I am raising is this, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The Question ought not to be put until we have heard a word of explanation from the Leader of the House.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: The right hon. and learned Gentleman may address the Chair at this stage only on a point of order.
      Mr. Peyton: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The only reason you get so far in the process of putting the Question was that my hon. and right hon. Friends were waiting in the confidence, albeit with a misplaced confidence, that the Minister would attempt to justify what we regard as gross misconduct. We all have great sympathy with you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in your difficult position, but we very much hope that you will allow every opportunity for a Minister to put the Government's point of view, or alternatively, allow the debate on this motion to continue uninterrupted.
      Hon. Hembers: Answer.
      Mr. Edward Short: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I would certainly hope to make a statement on the Adjournment when this motion has been carried.
      Hon. Members: No.
      Sir G. Howe: Further to the point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. If a timetable motion has been placed before the House, ought we not to have an announcement to that effect before the Adjournment motion is moved?
      Mr. Thorpe rose—
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I wish to reply to the earlier point of order.
      Mr. Thorpe rose—
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: The question was asked whether the Leader of the House would make a statement. He has made that statement. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] He has promised that he will make that statement after this motion has been dealt with.
      Mr. Thorpe: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The Leader of the House has said that we must vote first and then he will give his reasons afterwards.
      Mr. Norman Tebbit: Further to the point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. [HON. MEMBERS: "Sit down."] When the House has managed to calm down a little and when Labour Members realise that this is the House of Commons and not the Reichstag—[HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish."]—perhaps we may make a little progress. How are hon. Members expected to understand the issues on which they are to vote when the Leader of the House says that he will not make a statement or an announcement or give any indication of what is involved until after the vote has been taken? Surely that is a total and complete disregard of the House. [HON. MEMBERS: "Shut up."] Mr. Deputy Speaker, you did not put the Question.
      12 midnight.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: May I try to assist the House in this difficult matter. When I put the Question, I did not finish the proper procedure by saying "The Ayes have it". That is where the mistake arose.
      Mr. Peyton: One point which the Leader of the House made absolutely clear was that it was his intention, in a matter as contentious as this, to absorb the time of a back-bench Member on the Adjournment in order to explain, if it is explainable, the tortuous course adopted by the Government. I say with great respect that there is a duty upon the Chair to protect the rights of backbenchers against the depredations of Ministers who take up their time in order to explain, at a time when there may be only minutes available.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: That is not a matter for the Chair.
      Sir John Eden: You have very helpfully given an explanation of what went wrong when you put the Question, Mr. Deputy Speaker. You said that the Leader of the House had made a statement, at the request of my hon. Friends and others. It is within the recollection of all my hon. Friends that the right hon. Gentleman said that he would say something later. I do not

      1219
      know whether that, in your judgment, fairly constitutes a statement, but you clearly had a view that the right hon. Gentleman had made his commitment to the House as a whole. I am not clear what it is that the right hon. Gentleman will give an explanation about.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: That will become apparent when the time comes.
      Several Hon. Members rose—
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I wish to make it quite clear that when I put the Question but failed to collect the voices there was no hon. Member on his feet. That is where the misunderstanding lay. I now propose to put the Question.
      Hon. Members: No.
      Question put:—
      The House proceeded to a Division—
      Mr. Peter Emery(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. May I ask you how, after you had, in your own words, started to put the Question, you then relented and allowed the Leader of the House, not rising on a point of order, to speak to the House?
      Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Oscar Murton): Perhaps I can help the hon. Gentleman. The Chair had assumed that the Leader of the House was rising on a point of order.
      Mr. Emery(seated and covered): Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. How is it for the Chair to presume, when the Leader of the House, who knows about the procedures of this House, rises—not on a point of order—that the right hon. Gentleman is rising on a point of order? The right hon. Gentleman has not done so and I suggest that the debate ought to be continued—
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I have put the Question.
      Mrs. Winifred Ewing(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker—
      Mr. Emery(seated and covered) I was in the middle of a point of order to which I have not had an answer. How can it be correct—
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: I gave the hon. Gentleman an answer. I believed that the Leader of the House was rising on a point of order.
      Mr. Emery(seated and covered): Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. How can it be, when the Leader of the House—the holder of the rules of order—does not rise on a point of order, that the Chair presumes that that is what he is doing? If the Leader of the House makes a mistake we, the minority, have a right to your protection.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: The answer was, as I said previously, that there was no right hon. or hon. Member on his feet at the time when I originally put the Question.
      Mrs. Winifred Ewing(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My point of order is simple. I am a Member of this House and I could not hear what was happening. I could not hear even by listening to the microphones in the seat. I do not think it is right for these proceedings to commence at all. My group could not hear what was happening. We do not know what is happening because of the noise in the Chamber, because there was no order being kept. That is my point of order. I would like to hear an answer.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: The microphones must not be strong enough for the hon. Lady.
      Mrs. Winifred Ewing(seated and covered): That is a very bad answer.
      Mr. Michael Spicer(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Does this extraordinary announcement by the Leader of the House mean that my Adjournment debate, on behalf of my constituents, will be lost?
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: No. Not in any way.
      The House having divided: Ayes 269, Noes 257.

      Division No. 118.]

      AYES

      [12.5 a.m.

      Abse, Leo

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      Marquand, David

      Allaun, Frank

      Foot, Rt Hon Michael

      Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

      Anderson, Donald

      Ford, Ben

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Archer, Peter

      Forrester, John

      Mason, Rt Hon Roy

      Armstrong, Ernest

      Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin)

      Meacher, Michael

      Ashton, Joe

      Fraser John (Lambeth, N'w'd)

      Mellish, Rt Hon Robert

      Atkins, Ronald (Preston N)

      Freeson, Reginald

      Mikardo, Ian

      Atkinson, Norman

      Garrett, John (Norwich S)

      Millan, Bruce

      Bagier, Gordon A. T.

      Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)

      Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)

      Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

      Gilbert Dr John

      Miller, Mrs Millie (Ilford N)

      Barnett, Rt Hon Joel

      Ginsburg, David

      Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen)

      Bates, Alf

      Golding, John

      Molloy, William

      Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N)

      Gould, Bryan

      Moonman, Eric

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Gourlay, Harry

      Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

      Bishop, E. S.

      Graham, Ted

      Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      Grant, John (Islington C)

      Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon)

      Boardman, H.

      Grocott, Bruce

      Moyle, Roland

      Booth, Albert

      Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

      Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

      Boothroyd, Miss Betty

      Hamling, William

      Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King

      Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur

      Hardy, Peter

      Newens, Stanley

      Boyden, James (Bish Auck)

      Harper, Joseph

      Noble, Mike

      Bradley, Tom

      Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

      Oakes, Gordon

      Bray, Dr Jeremy

      Hart, Rt Hon Judith

      Ogden, Eric

      Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

      Hatton, Frank

      O'Halloran, Michael

      Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)

      Hayman, Mrs Helene

      O'Malley, Rt Hon Brian

      Brown, Ronald (Hackney S)

      Healey, Rt Hon Denis

      Orbach, Maurice

      Buchan, Norman

      Heffer, Eric S.

      Ovenden, John

      Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)

      Hooley, Frank

      Owen, Dr David

      Campbell, Ian

      Horam, John

      Palmer, Arthur

      Canavan, Dennis

      Howell, Denis (B'ham, Sm H)

      Park, George

      Cant, R. B.

      Hoyle, Doug (Nelson)

      Parker, John

      Carmichael, Neil

      Huckfield, Les

      Parry, Robert

      Carter, Ray

      Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey)

      Pavitt, Laurie

      Carter-Jones, Lewis

      Hughes, Mark (Durham)

      Pendry, Tom

      Castle, Rt Hon Barbara

      Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)

      Perry, Ernest

      Clemitson, Ivor

      Hughes, Roy (Newport)

      Phipps, Dr Colin

      Cocks, Michael (Bristol S)

      Hunter, Adam

      Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

      Cohen, Stanley

      Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford)

      Prescott, John

      Coleman, Donald

      Jackson, Colin (Brighouse)

      Price, C. (Lewisham W)

      Colquhoun, Mrs Maureen

      Jackson Miss Margaret (Lincoln)

      Price, William (Rugby)

      Concannon, J. D.

      Janner, Greville

      Radice, Giles

      Conlan, Bernard

      Jeger, Mrs Lena

      Richardson, Miss Jo

      Cook, Robin F. (Edin C)

      Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

      Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

      Corbett, Robin

      John Brynmor

      Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)

      Cox, Thomas (Tooting)

      Johnson, James (Hull West)

      Robertson, John (Paisley)

      Craigen, J. M. (Maryhill)

      Jones, Alec (Rhondda)

      Roderick, Caerwyn

      Crosland, Rt Hon Anthony

      Jones, Barry (East Flint)

      Rodgers, George (Chorley)

      Cryer, Bob

      Jones, Dan (Burnley)

      Rodgers, William (Stockton)

      Cunningham, G. (Islington S)

      Judd, Frank

      Rooker, J. W.

      Cunningham, Dr J. (Witeh)

      Kaufman, Gerald

      Roper, John

      Dalyell, Tam

      Kelley Richard

      Rose, Paul B.

      Davidson, Arthur

      Kerr, Russell

      Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock)

      Davies, Bryan (Enfield N)

      Kilroy-Silk, Robert

      Rowlands, Ted

      Davies, Denzil (Llanelli)

      Kinnock, Neil

      Ryman, John

      Davies, Ifor (Gower)

      Lambie, David

      Sandelson, Neville

      Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)

      Lamborn, Harry

      Sedgemore, Brian

      Deakins, Eric

      Lamond, James

      Selby, Harry

      Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

      Latham, Arthur (Paddington)

      Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South)

      de Freitas, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne)

      Dell, Rt Hon Edmund

      Lee, John

      Short, Rt Hon E. (Newcastle C)

      Dempsey, James

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)

      Doig, Peter

      Lipton, Marcus

      Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)

      Dormand, J. D.

      Litterick, Tom

      Sillars, James

      Douglas-Mann, Bruce

      Loyden, Eddie

      Silverman, Julius

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Luard, Evan

      Skinner, Dennis

      Dunnett, Jack

      Lyon, Alexander (York)

      Small, William

      Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)

      Smith, John (N Lanarkshire)

      Eadie, Alex

      Mabon, Dr J. Dickson

      Snape, Peter

      Edelman, Maurice

      McCartney, Hugh

      Spearing, Nigel

      Edge, Geoff

      MacFarquhar, Roderick

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Ellis, Tom (Wrexham)

      McGuire, Michael (Ince)

      Stallard, A. W.

      English, Michael

      Mackenzie, Gregor

      Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham)

      Ennals, David

      Mackintosh, John P.

      Stoddart, David

      Evans, Ioan (Aberdare)

      Maclennan, Robert

      Stott, Roger

      Evans, John (Newton)

      McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)

      Strang, Gavin

      Ewing, Harry (Stirling)

      McNamara, Kevin

      Strauss, Rt Hon G. R.

      Fernyhough, Rt Hon E.

      Madden, Max

      Swain, Thomas

      Flannery, Martin

      Magee, Bryan

      Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

      Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

      Marks, Kenneth

      Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

      1222

      1223

      Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)

      Ward, Michael

      Williams, W. T. (Warringon)

      Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)

      Watkins, David

      Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

      Thorne, Stan (Preston South)

      Watkinson, John

      Wilson, Rt Hon H. (Huyton)

      Tierney, Sydney

      Weitzman, David

      Wilson, William (Coventry SE)

      Tinn, James

      Wellbeloved, James

      Wise, Mrs Audrey

      Tomlinson, John

      White, Frank R. (Bury)

      Woodall, Alec

      Torney, Tom

      White, James (Pollok)

      Wrigglesworth, Ian

      Urwin, T. W.

      Whitehead, Phillip

      Young, David (Bolton E)

      Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)

      Whitlock, William

      Walden, Brian (B'ham, L'dyw'd)

      Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

      Williams, Alan (Swansea W)

      Mr. James A. Dunn and

      Walker, Terry (Kingswood)

      Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford)

      Mr. John Ellis.

      NOES

      Adley, Robert

      Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham)

      McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury)

      Aitken, Jonathan

      Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

      Madel, David

      Alison, Michael

      Glyn, Dr Alan

      Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

      Awdry, Daniel

      Goodhew, Victor

      Marten, Neil

      Bain, Mrs Margaret

      Goodlad, Alastair

      Mather, Carol

      Baker, Kenneth

      Gorst, John

      Maude, Angus

      Banks, Robert

      Gow, Ian (Eastbourne)

      Maudling, Rt Hon Reginald

      Beith, A. J.

      Gower Sir Raymond (Barry)

      Mawby, Ray

      Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham)

      Grant, Anthony (Harrow C)

      Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

      Benyon, W.

      Gray, Hamish

      Mayhew, Patrick

      Berry, Hon Anthony

      Grieve, Percy

      Meyer, Sir Anthony

      Biffen, John

      Griffiths, Eldon

      Mills, Peter

      Biggs-Davison, John

      Grist, Ian

      Miscampbell, Norman

      Blaker, Peter

      Grylls, Michael

      Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

      Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown)

      Hall, Sir John

      Moate, Roger

      Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent)

      Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

      Molyneaux, James

      Braine, Sir Bernard

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Monro, Hector

      Brittan, Leon

      Hampson, Dr Keith

      Montgomery, Fergus

      Brotherton, Michael

      Hannam, John

      Moore, John (Croydon C)

      Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

      Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye)

      More, Jasper (Ludlow)

      Bryan, Sir Paul

      Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss

      Morgan, Geraint

      Buchanan-Smith, Alick

      Hastings, Stephen

      Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral

      Buck, Antony

      Havers, Sir Michael

      Morris, Michael (Northampton S)

      Budgen, Nick

      Hawkins, Paul

      Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

      Bulmer, Esmond

      Hayhoe Barney

      Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester)

      Carlisle, Mark

      Henderson Douglas

      Mudd, David

      Chalker, Mrs Lynda

      Heseltine, Michael

      Nelson, Anthony

      Channon, Paul

      Hicks, Robert

      Neubert, Michael

      Churchill, W. S.

      Higgins, Terence L.

      Newton, Tony

      Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton)

      Holland, Philip

      Normanton, Tom

      Clark, William (Croydon S)

      Hooson, Emlyn

      Nott, John

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Hordern, Peter

      Onslow, Cranley

      Clegg, Walter

      Howe Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

      Oppenheim, Mrs Sally

      Cockcroft, John

      Howell, David (Guildford)

      Osborn, John

      Cooke, Robert (Bristol W)

      Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

      Page, John (Harrow West)

      Cope, John

      Howells, Geraint (Cardigan)

      Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)

      Cormack, Patrick

      Hurd, Douglas

      Paisley, Rev Ian

      Corrie, John

      James, David

      Parkinson, Cecil

      Costain, A. P.

      Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd & W'df'd)

      Pattie, Geoffrey

      Craig, Rt Hon W. (Belfast E)

      Jessel, Toby

      Penhaligon, David

      Crawford, Douglas

      Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead)

      Percival, Ian

      Crouch, David

      Jones Arthur (Daventry)

      Peyton, Rt Hon John

      Crowder, F. P.

      Jopling, Michael

      Pink, R. Bonner

      Davies, Rt Hon J. (Knutsford)

      Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith

      Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch

      Dean, Paul (N Somerset)

      Kaberry, Sir Donald

      Pym, Rt Hon Francis

      Dodsworth, Geoffrey

      Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

      Rathbone, Tim

      Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

      Kershaw, Anthony

      Rawlinson, Rt Hon Sir Peter

      du Cann, Rt Hon Edward

      Kimball, Marcus

      Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal)

      Durant, Tony

      King, Evelyn (South Dorset)

      Rees-Davies, W. R.

      Eden, Rt Hon Sir John

      King, Tom (Bridgwater)

      Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts)

      Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

      Kirk, Peter

      Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex)

      Elliott, Sir William

      Kitson, Sir Timothy

      Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

      Emery, Peter

      Knight, Mrs Jill

      Ridley, Hon Nicholas

      Ewing, Mrs Winifred (Moray)

      Lamont, Norman

      Ridsdale, Julian

      Eyre, Reginald

      Lane, David

      Rifkind, Malcolm

      Fairbairn, Nicholas

      Langford-Holt, Sir John

      Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey

      Fairgrieve, Russell

      Latham, Michael (Melton)

      Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)

      Fell, Anthony

      Lawrence, Ivan

      Roberts, Wyn (Conway)

      Finsberg Geoffrey

      Lawson, Nigel

      Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

      Fisher, Sir Nigel

      Lester, Jim (Beeston)

      Ross, William (Londonderry)

      Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N)

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

      Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

      Loveridge, John

      Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire)

      Fowler Norman (Sutton C'f'd)

      Luce, Richard

      Sainsbury, Tim

      Fox, Marcus

      MacCormick, Iain

      St. John-Stevas, Norman

      Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St)

      McCrindle, Robert

      Scott, Nicholas

      Fry, Peter

      McCusker, H.

      Scott-Hopkins, James

      Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

      Macfarlane, Neil

      Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)

      Gardiner, George (Reigate)

      MacGregor, John

      Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)

      Gardner, Edward (S Fylde)

      Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham)

      Shelton, William (Streatham)

      1224

      1225

      Shepherd, Colin

      Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)

      Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek

      Shersby, Michael

      Stokes, John

      Walters, Dennis

      Silvester, Fred

      Stradling Thomas, J.

      Warren, Kenneth

      Sims, Roger

      Taylor, R. (Croydon NW)

      Watt, Hamish

      Sinclair, Sir George

      Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)

      Weatherill, Bernard

      Skeet, T. H. H.

      Tebbit, Norman

      Wells, John

      Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)

      Temple-Morris, Peter

      Welsh, Andrew

      Smith, Dudley (Warwick)

      Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret

      Whitelaw, Rt Hon William

      Speed, Keith

      Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

      Wiggin, Jerry

      Spence, John

      Thompson, George

      Wigley, Dafydd

      Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)

      Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)

      Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)

      Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)

      Townsend, Cyril D.

      Winterton, Nicholas

      Sproat, Iain

      Trotter, Neville

      Wood, Rt Hon Richard

      Stanbrook, Ivor

      Tugendhat, Christopher

      Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton)

      Stanley, John

      van Straubenzee, W. R.

      Steel, David (Roxburgh)

      Vaughan, Dr Gerard

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      Steen, Anthony (Wavertree)

      Viggers, Peter

      Mr. Spencer Le Marchant and

      Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)

      Wakeham, John

      Mr. Adam Butler.

      Question accordingly agreed to.
      Resolved,
      That further consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned.
      Bill, not amended in the Committee and as amended in the Standing Committee, to be further considered this day.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Speaker: I call Mr. Short.
  12.15 a.m.
  The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Edward Short): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a short business statement.
  Mr. John Gorst rose—
  Mr. Walter Clegg rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I called the Leader of the House. Mr. Short.
  Mr. Gorst: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
  Mr. Speaker: I may perhaps take points of order afterwards. I want to hear what the Leader of the House has to say.
  Mr. Gorst rose—
  Hon. Members: Name him.
  Mr. Short: In view of the rate of progress on the Report stage—
  Mr. Gorst rose—
  Mr. Speaker: I have said that I want to hear first what the Leader of the
  1226
  House has to say. I might perhaps take a point of order after that.
  Mr. Short: In view of the rate of progress on the Report stage of the Finance Bill—
  Mr. Gorst rose—
  Mr. Short: —the Government will ask the House to consider a motion relating to the remaining stages of the Bill. The motion has been tabled and will be taken as first business at tomorrow's sitting.
  Secondly, in view of the imminent risk of redundancies, the House will also be asked to consider at the end of Wednesday a motion relating to financial assistance to Norton Villiers Triumph Limited.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Speaker: I call the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton).
  Mr. John Peyton rose—
  Mr. Gorst: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
  Mr. Speaker: I called the right hon. Member for Yeovil.
  Mr. Gorst: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
  Hon. Members: Name him.
  Mr. Speaker: If I think it appropriate, I will take the point of order after I have heard the right hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Peyton: I think the whole House—or at least the Opposition—will have heard the statement made by the Leader of the House with disgust and dismay. We deplore his evident concern to throttle discussion upon tax measures which will have a fierce bearing on many people.
  Secondly, I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman why suddenly, at this late

  1227
  hour, the Government have discovered that the motion relating to financial assistance to Norton Villiers Triumph Limited is so urgent. It has, I think, been on the Order Paper for four months. Are we to take it that the convenience of the Secretary of State for Industry is to be weighed above that of the House of Commons? We would like confirmation of that, although in the circumstances we would greet that confirmation without surprise.
  Mr. Edward Short: The right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) is entitled to an answer to that question. It is because the Chairman of Norton Villiers Triumph has informed us today that this money must be forthcoming this week, otherwise there will be redundancies. This is the first that the Government have heard of the urgency of the matter.
  Mr. Jeremy Thorpe: Will the Leader of the House be good enough to say why we are first invited to vote to adjourn consideration of the Bill and only afterwards are we given any explanation by the right hon. Gentleman? Are we to take this to be a precedent that he intends to follow in the future?
  Mr. Speaker: We have had a vote on the motion. That has been decided. In accordance with convention, I have allowed the Leader of the House to make a statement about business, and I gather that its very controversial substance will be debated tomorrow. I think that that is the end of it.
  Several Hon. Members: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker—
  Mr. Speaker: I am prepared to take one point of order—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—which is quite contrary to precedent.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Mr. Emery. A point of order.
  Mr. Peter Emery: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I ask you to consider, perhaps in slightly calmer times, the position we have reached? In a moment of pressure, if the Chair does not finally put the Question and another hon. Member—in this
  1228
  instance the Leader of the House—rises to address the House, not on a point of order, would you not consider that the debate had been resumed and that the motion had not been put to the House? If that is the case I wonder whether you could give a ruling to the House, because it is most important, especially to protect the rights of minorities.
  Mr. Speaker: I always try to do that. In fact, the motion was put. There was a Division. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I thought that I announced the result of the Division. Then I allowed, as I think is the convention of the House, the Leader of the House to make a statement. I allowed one supplementary question on that. I am afraid that this is the end of it.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Walter Harrison (Treasurer of Her Majesty's Household): I beg to move, That this House—
  Several Hon. Members: On a point of order—
  Mr. Speaker: Hon. Members may shout at me as much as they like. I intend now—Hon. Members: ["No."] I intend now to call the Adjournment motion.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
    ADJOURNMENT
    Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Walter Harrison.]

  ST. WULSTAN'S HOSPITAL, MALVERN
  12.25 a.m.
  Mr. Michael Spicer rose—
  Mr. John Gorst: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
  Mr. Speaker: Mr. Spicer.
  Mr. Anthony Kershaw: You must take a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
  Mr. Gorst rose—
  Mr. Speaker: Order. This is taking time out of the period allotted to the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Mr. Spicer) for his Adjournment debate.
  Mr. Spicer: Despite the behaviour of the Leader of the House I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, for allowing me to raise a matter that is of great importance to my constituents. I am embarrassed by the situation, because the behaviour of the Government, and particularly the Leader of the House, should be indicated by all hon. Members who believe in the House of Commons. The situation is completely unprecedented, and if it were not for the importance of this issue to my constituents I should consider not proceeding with my Adjournment debate and instead asking the Leader of the House to answer a little more frankly than he has done so far.
  I am advised by my hon. Friends not to proceed with my debate. May I just reiterate that we are infuriated by the actions of the Leader of the House. He is empowered to represent both sides of the Chamber, and the fact that he came along after the Division and did not give any indication of what the motion was about in the first place is reprehensible. Nevertheless I am grateful for this opportunity to raise what to my constituents and to many members of the Gallery is a vital issue, and with your permission, Mr. Speaker, I shall pursue this.
  I shall speak briefly, because I have a rather severe attack of laryngitis and it is not making life easy for me. I hope that the Minister will be able tonight to tell the House that the fears about the future of St. Wulstan's Hospital are totally misplaced and that the recommendation for its closure by the officers of the Birmingham Regional Health Authority has been turned down.
  There is no doubt that St. Wulstan's has an essential and leading rôle to play in helping patients who are suffering from severe mental illness to lead a normal life. The importance of the work carried out at St. Wulstan's has been emphasised over and over again in the many letters that have been received by right hon. and hon. Members who have signed Early-Day Motion No. 184.
  St. Wulstan's has the massive support of consultant psychiatrists and heads of psychiatric units throughout this country and abroad. A letter which I understand is to be published in the next edition of the Lancet from Dr. Calanca of the Clinique Psychiatrique Universitaire,
  1230
  Lausanne, Switzerland, is typical of many that I have seen. He writes:
  "Dear Sirs,
  I read in the Lancet of 25th January 1975 on page 229 that St. Wulstan's Hospital in Malvern may be closed. I am very astonished and sorry about this news.
  In 1968 I visited St. Wulstan's Hospital and was very interested by this very impressive rehabilitation service. I visited in the United Kingdom about 33 hospitals; but this one was for me the most important place where I learned what really was a rehabilitation centre, and how to manage and to give a chance to chronic patients. This experience was very helpful to me, so that we created some similar centres in Switzerland based on what we had seen in Malvern, especially for the organisation, rating scales, and so on.
  I strongly hope that my letter will be taken into consideration."
  Mrs. Jill Knight: I should be grateful if my hon. Friend would also recognise that it is not only the consultants, of whom he speaks so accurately, but the Conservative Members of Parliament throughout the West Midlands who strongly support him in what he is trying to do. If we were not severely cut short by the rules of the House and by the shortness of time for this debate, I can assure my hon. Friend that there would be many other Members present to support all that he is trying to do.
  Mr. Spicer: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend. It is right that many Members have already signed the Early-Day Motion on the subject. My hon. Friend is right to suggest that it is not only psychiatrists and members of the profession who feel strongly about this matter. I had a letter only this morning which reads:
  "My brother was in Stafford Hospital from 1936 to 1965—from the age of 18 to 47. He was transferred to St. Wulstan's and made excellent progress, so much so that he has worked away from the hospital for about six years. St. Wulstan's has continued to help my brother and recently assisted him to get employment in Cheltenham."
  There is no doubt that St. Wulstan's is seen throughout the entire psychiatric profession as one the world's pace-setters in developing methods of rehabilitating and reintegrating severe cases of mental illness—namely, those who twenty years ago would have been considered beyond help. To my knowledge there is no other hospital in this country comparable to St. Wulstan's. What a tragedy it would

  1231
  be if once again we were to set in motion the process of undermining and eventually killing off yet another centre of excellence.
  I shall consider for a moment the future of St. Wulstan's in the context of a national policy towards mental health. I hope that when the Minister replies he will not merely shrug off this matter as a regional problem. It is, as I hope to show, a national problem. The Minister will know better than I the vast deeps to which the national problem of mental health descends but which as yet to a large extent goes publicly unrecognised. Over half a million people are thought to be suffering from some form of mental disorder. The rate per thousand is growing alarmingly. According to the figures in the 1971 White Paper—that surely underestimates today's problem—over 120,000 people suffer from severe mental illness and are in need of specific hospital treatment.
  The objectives of the previous Conservative administration were reasonably well spelt out in broad terms, and the indications given last Wednesday by the Secretary of State for Social Services suggest that the present Government broadly follow those objectives. I do not want to make a political point, but I am looking for a rather more elaborate and detailed statement from the Government.
  However, as far as I can see, the objectives appear to be broadly the same as those set out by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) in 1973. My right hon. Friend said that there were four objectives for the mental health service: first, that it should be realised that the chronically mentally disabled would be living in the surroundings provided by the service for a considerable time and that the services and the environment provided should be good and full; second, that there should always be the possibility of rehabilitation and that the necessary services for this should be provided; third, that the service should be provided in such a way as to attract and retain good and devoted staff; fourth, that the provision of the services should allow residents to be as close as possible to their families and communities. The question of St. Wulstan's centres precisely on those four
  1232
  objectives, with which I assume the Minister has no quarrel.
  On the first objective, that of providing a good life, if there is any doubt in the Department about the acceptability of the environment provided by St. Wulstan's and the happiness of patients who are benefiting from its treatment, I beg the Minister to visit it. Nothing would give me greater pleasure than to accompany him. Some of the most pathetic pleas for a favourable outcome to this issue have come to me from the patients themselves.
  On the second objective, there can be no doubt that St. Wulstan's has led the entire field, to a large extent the entire world, in experimentation and the provision of rehabilitation methods. Its special contribution, of course, has been in industrial therapy, the importance of which has been to provide the necessary range of employment so as to return to the patients a sense of involvement and of being needed by society and ultimately the desire once again to take on the outside world.
  Mr. Esmond Bulmer: There are many in my constituency, which adjoins that of my hon. Friend, who describe the services he has mentioned as a lifeline. It is particularly in the on-going provision of sheltered workshops that we hope that the Minister will satisfy us.
  Mr. Spicer: I am grateful. My hon. Friend speaks as someone in whose constituency a new psychiatric unit will soon be opening, so he speaks of this matter with great knowledge and a sense of balance.
  Of the 1,000 patients referred to St. Wulstan's since its opening in 1961, the hospital has had a 95 per cent. success ratio in terms of helping patients to return to some form of employment and a 50 per cent. success ratio in helping them to take a part again in the outside world. This compares with a national average of one in 20. These results are the more remarkable when it is realised that St. Wulstan's accepts the more difficult patients from other mental hospitals. It is a condition of acceptance at St. Wulstan's that one must have been a patient for two years at another mental hospital.

  1233
  It is on the third objective—of providing a service which attracts the best possible staff—that St. Wulstan's becomes so important. This is the main significance of this debate. The case for St. Wulstan's rests partly on the range of services that it can provide, but also on the quality of staff it attracts and the teaching and research in which they can take part.
  The tragedy of this story so far is not the threat of closure itself—one assumes that the Minister will dismiss that out of hand—but the damage which has already been done to the morale and retention of good staff and the recruitment of new staff. The leaks and the gossip which have surrounded the regional health authority's protracted discussions of this matter since July 1971 are the real scandal. That is why it is now imperative that the Minister declare his own hand. It would do immense further damage if his response tonight were merely that there were to be further discussions on the matter behind closed doors.
  Finally there is the whole question, which I realise is a sensitive one, of how St. Wulstan's fits into the Government's total strategy towards the form and location of services for the mentally disabled. In a speech last Wednesday the Secretary of State for Social Services indicated that she was determined to continue the policy implied in the 1971 White Paper to provide help for the mentally handicapped within the community by running down the large mental hospitals and building up units attached to local hospitals and local authority hostels.
  While that policy is broadly accepted on both sides of the House, there are two strong qualifications. First, the economic circumstances in which we find ourselves today are totally different from those in which the 1971 White Paper was written. We know that cash for mental health will be very scarce. We should therefore look very suspiciously and with extreme scepticism at a programme which involves the closure of one type of hospital in exchange for vague promises about new hospital or units to be attached to general hospitals. Necessary cutbacks, particularly in local government spending, make it highly probable that the desired programme, for instance for hostels, will not be forthcoming in the foreseeable future.
  1234
  We already know that 10,000 patients in England and Wales could be discharged at this moment if there were the necessary hostels to receive them.
  The second qualification to the broadly correct policy of dispersing relates directly to St. Wulstan's. Although there is much consensus, I believe, about the need to disperse and reintegrate the general population of the mentally disabled, there remains and will continue to remain—I beg the Under-Secretary to accept this—the quite distinct problem of the chronically and severely sick. The question of how they should be treated is a much more difficult one.
  The 1971 White Paper succinctly made the point that there were two quite distinct sets of opinions about this. On the one hand there were those who considered that
  "there should be no separate hospitals of the present sort"
  and that the whole thing should be dispersed. There were the others who, in the words of paragraph 191 of the White Paper favoured
  "larger specialised hospitals as in the present hospital service … In such hospitals, they say, it is easier to provide a wide range of services for occupation, training and recreation."
  The last paragraph of that section of the White Paper states:
  "The Government considers it premature to form a final view on these questions. Experience of various solutions is necessary to test the theories in practice. The Government is therefore encouraging alternative lines of development".
  The right hon. Lady in her speech last Wednesday indicated that she was of the same opinion and was keeping her mind open. There is no reason whatever for the Government to be ashamed of that point of view. Indeed, I believe it is the right point of view, because if one fact stands out alone in this whole matter it is that we do not really know what are the causes of many severe forms of mental health. How, then, can we start to suggest a final, ultimate, complete and only solution? It is imperative that we consider a whole range of solutions and should not be afraid of doing so.
  One of the arguments used for dispersing is that patients would then be close to their relatives. In the case of St. Wulstan's, 60 per cent. of the patients

  1235
  there do not have any contact with relations and 75 per cent. have very weak links with the outside world. Therefore, this point does not begin to apply in the case of a hospital like St. Wulstan's.
  I wonder whether the critics of hospitals and institutions such as St. Wulstan's are not obsessed by the fact that in a physical sense it is a poor status symbol. It has no fine, glossy buildings. Indeed, as regards capital costs it has been run on a shoe-string.
  I beg the Minister to make a visit because even the briefest of visits will show that in place of shining plastic floors and beautifully-fitted strip lighting there is the warmest, happiest and friendliest atmosphere among the 280 patients in St. Wulstan's. I beg the Minister to move as quickly as possible to ensure that morale is returned to the patients and staff of the hospital and that this great British experiment is permitted to continue to lead the world in this desperately difficult field of medicine.
  The objective must be to build more St. Wulstan's. In the meantime, I beg the Minister to keep the only one we have.
  12.45 a.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mr. Alec Jones): Let me tell the hon. Member for Worcestershire, South (Mr. Spicer) at the outset that I appreciate and share with him his obvious concern for those who are mentally ill. But I must say that he did less than justice to his cause by the first part of his speech. I am sure that when he reads the report of it tomorrow he will agree with me.
  Mr. Robin Maxwell-Hyslop: Nonsense. Humbug.
  Mr. Jones: The hon. Member is an expert at that kind of thing. If he wishes to take up time on the Adjournment, I am willing to let him do so.
  Mr. Michael Spicer rose—
  Mr. Jones: I am prepared to give way provided the hon. Member bears in mind that if he proposes to say much he will not give me the opportunity to say things that he may want me to say.
  Mr. Spicer: Will the Minister specify what remark he took exception to? I
  1236
  have looked at my notes, and I am not ashamed at anything in them.
  Mr. Jones: The hon. Member made a first-class speech, except in his attack on my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, when his remarks were both unwarranted and unfair.
  I shall move from that arena. I have said that I share with the hon. Member all the concern that he expressed so adequately this evening. I shall skip most of the prepared things I intended to say and try to deal with the specific point raised, namely, the suggestion of the closure of St. Wulstan's. In passing, I agree that it is quite true that I have not visited the hospital, any more than I have visited several other equally important institutions throughout the country. This is largely due to lack of time. Nevertheless my advisers have done so, and at the moment I accept both the hon. Member's words and the words of those who have advised me.
  No one disputes—certainly not I or the Department—the value of the work with St. Wulstan's, and particularly its staff, has rendered to mentally handicapped people for a long time. That is not in dispute between us. Over the past few months, however, as part of its consideration of the organisation of health services across the region as a whole, officers of the West Midlands Regional Hospital Authority have been giving much thought to the future of St. Wulstan's and have begun discussions with officers of the Hereford and Worcestershire Area Health Authority. I am advised that there are two reasons behind these considerations and the discussions which are taking place at officer level. First there is the question of cost. No one in the House can pretend that cost is not an issue in these matters.
  The hospital buildings date from 1942 and are said to be completely outdated, with engineering services at the end of their useful life. Regional hospital authority officers have estimated that more than £500,000 will need to be spent in the near future if the hospital is to continue in use for more than a year or two. Even if this expenditure were undertaken the basic design problems of the buildings would remain. There is a substantial sum to be spent on renewing old buildings, and it is clearly right that

  1237
  before a sum of this size is spent the responsible authorities should be satisfied that there is a longer-term rôle for the hospital.
  The second factor is the related question of the future pattern of services for the mentally ill, including rehabilitation services. When St. Wulstan's opened in its present form in 1961, it was unique in this respect. But in the last 10 years or so other hospitals in the region—I have a long list in front of me, but I shall not detain the House with it—have built up their rehabilitation units and are themselves rehabilitating patients as part of their accepted function. There has been a consequent reduction in admissions to St. Wulstan's, so that today there are only some 200 or so in-patients as against the 260 that could be accommodated.
  The development of locally-based services for the mentally ill, including rehabilitation services, is very much in accordance with the Department's long-term policy—the policy instituted by my predecessors. Locally-based facilities make it much easier for the health and social services to co-operate, make services more accessible for the patients and enable patients to stay in touch with their families. There is far more chance of the patients successfully re-establishing themselves in the community if their treatment and rehabilitation is carried out as close as possible to their home areas. We shall this year be publishing a White Paper on services for the mentally ill which will spell out the advantages of this policy in more detail.
  In brief, present policy envisages rehabilitation as embracing a wide range of occupational and rehabilitative activities for both in-patients and day-patients, and occupational facilities at local authority day centres for those not needing, medical and nursing care. As well as the contributions by the health and local authorities in developing patients' employment potential, there is the wide range of resettlement services under the Department of Employment and the Manpower Services Commission. These services include employment rehabilitation
  1238
  centres and skillcentres, together with the Disablement Resettlement Service with its function of placing people in open or sheltered employment. The need for co-operation between the health, social and employment services is of paramount importance.
  One of the matters for concern where there is a regional hospital unit serving a wide area is that patients may lose touch with their home areas. I understand the figures that the hon. Gentleman has given. I shall take into account all that he said about percentages. I hope that he will take account of the figures I now propose to give on this issue.
  I understand that of the 128 St. Wulstan's patients who came originally from outside the Hereford and Worcester area and who were discharged between 1970 and 1973, 121 have remained in the Malvern area. That does not suggest that there was a return to their home environment.
  It is thus the likelihood of considerable expenditure soon on what is basically relatively poor accommodation—there is no criticism of the staff in that connection—set against the background of the national policy of moving towards more locally-based provision for the mentally ill that has led officers of the regional and area health authorities to review St. Wulstan's future.
  The status of the present inquiries is as yet simply that of a review of provision by officers. When they have completed their review they will doubtless report their findings and any recommendation they wish to make to their respective health authorities. It is the authorities, the members, who then have to consider the matter and decide to seek my right hon. Friend's approval to begin.
  The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock on Monday evening, and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at five minutes to One o'clock.

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  Arts Council
  Arts Council
  Reynolds Portrait of Laurence Sterne
  Reynolds Portrait of Laurence Sterne
  Departmental Inquiries
  Departmental Inquiries
OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT
  Overseas Pensions Act 1973
  Overseas Pensions Act 1973
CIVIL SERVICE
  Scottish Distant Islands Allowance
  Scottish Distant Islands Allowance
  Ministerial Meetings (Records)
  Ministerial Meetings (Records)
  Her Majesty's Stationery Office
  Her Majesty's Stationery Office
  Ministers, Staffs and Members of Parliament (Costs)
  Ministers, Staffs and Members of Parliament (Costs)
  LEGISLATION
  LEGISLATION
  DEVOLUTION
  DEVOLUTION
  REFERENDUM
  REFERENDUM
HOUSE OF COMMONS
  Functions
  Functions
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Tomatoes
  Tomatoes
  Horticulture (Glasshouse Sector)
  Horticulture (Glasshouse Sector)
  Dairy Herd Conversion
  Dairy Herd Conversion
  Calf Subsidy
  Calf Subsidy
  Sows
  Sows
  Sugar
  Sugar
  CROWN COURT TRIALS
  CROWN COURT TRIALS
  INDUSTRIAL TRIBUNALS
  INDUSTRIAL TRIBUNALS
  ROBERT ALFRED CLARK
  ROBERT ALFRED CLARK
  Northern Ireland
  Northern Ireland
DEFENCE
  Anti-tank Weapons
  Anti-tank Weapons
  Aircraft Accidents
  Aircraft Accidents
EMPLOYMENT
  Bankrupt and Liquidated Businesses
  Bankrupt and Liquidated Businesses
  Retail Prices
  Retail Prices
  Haulage
  Haulage
  May Day
  May Day
ENERGY
  Nuclear Waste (Transportation)
  Nuclear Waste (Transportation)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Community Service Scheme (London)
  Community Service Scheme (London)
  Wakefield Prison
  Wakefield Prison
  Commitals
  Commitals
  Prisoners
  Prisoners
  Immigrants (Catering Industry)
  Immigrants (Catering Industry)
  Majority Verdicts
  Majority Verdicts
NORTHERN IRELAND
  Street Lighting (Belfast)
  Street Lighting (Belfast)
  Detainees (Compensation)
  Detainees (Compensation)
  Vehicle Parking
  Vehicle Parking
  Firearms
  Firearms
  Terrorism (Casualties)
  Terrorism (Casualties)
  Incident Centres
  Incident Centres
  Policing (Belfast)
  Policing (Belfast)
  SCOTLAND (PRIME MINISTER'S VISIT)
  SCOTLAND (PRIME MINISTER'S VISIT)
  MOSCOW (PRIME MINISTER'S VISIT)
  MOSCOW (PRIME MINISTER'S VISIT)
SCOTLAND
  Health Education (Film)
  Health Education (Film)
  Meat Imports (Certification)
  Meat Imports (Certification)
SOCIAL SERVICES
  Medical Students
  Medical Students
  Psychosurgical Operations
  Psychosurgical Operations
  Doctors' Expenses
  Doctors' Expenses
  Graduated Pensions
  Graduated Pensions
  Retirement Pensions
  Retirement Pensions
  Supplementary Benefits
  Supplementary Benefits
  Psychiatric Treatment
  Psychiatric Treatment
  Psychiatric Care
  Psychiatric Care
  District Hospitals
  District Hospitals
  Mentally-Handicapped Persons
  Mentally-Handicapped Persons
  Widows' Pensions and Allowances
  Widows' Pensions and Allowances
  One-Parent Families
  One-Parent Families
WALES
  Mid-Wales (Development)
  Mid-Wales (Development)
  Industrial Development (South Wales)
  Industrial Development (South Wales)
  Nursery Education
  Nursery Education
  Welsh Assembly
  Welsh Assembly
  Arts Council
  Arts Council
  Industry and Employment
  Industry and Employment
  Factories (Dangerous Processes)
  Factories (Dangerous Processes)
ENVIRONMENT
  Housing Acquisitions (Local Authorities)
  Housing Acquisitions (Local Authorities)
  Waterways (Pollution Control)
  Waterways (Pollution Control)
  Ordnance Survey Maps
  Ordnance Survey Maps
  Housing Services
  Housing Services
  Invalid Vehicles (Accidents)
  Invalid Vehicles (Accidents)
  Water Authorities
  Water Authorities
  Vehicles (Accident Rates)
  Vehicles (Accident Rates)
  A11 (Newmarket—Cringleford)
  A11 (Newmarket—Cringleford)
  Vehicles (Roadworthiness)
  Vehicles (Roadworthiness)
  Rate Rebates
  Rate Rebates
  Local Government Staffs (Pay)
  Local Government Staffs (Pay)
  A1 (South Mimms)
  A1 (South Mimms)
  Empty Houses
  Empty Houses
  Historic Buildings (Westmorland)
  Historic Buildings (Westmorland)
  Small Businesses (Rents)
  Small Businesses (Rents)
  Licensed Premises (Rents)
  Licensed Premises (Rents)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Rochester.
The Marquess of Headfort—Took the Oath.

EEC: PUBLICATION OF MINISTERS' STATEMENTS
The Earl of LAUDERDALE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will publish the statements made by United Kingdom Ministers in Sessions of the Council of the European Community.
The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy Roberts): My Lords, Council meetings are necessarily confidential. It would not, therefore, normally be appropriate for Her Majesty's Government to publish such statements.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE: My Lords, in thanking the noble Lord for that reply—particularly for the adverb "normally", which is a helpful qualification—may I ask whether he would agree with the analysis of the Maybray- King Report that Council meetings are in no way analogous to Cabinet meetings, inasmuch as the Council Ministers meet for negotiating and deliberative activities as well as for legislative activities binding upon every citizen? Therefore, would it not be proper that at least their legislative activities should be open to the public gaze?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I would agree with the general analysis which the noble Earl has offered. As to publication of legislative proposals, the Commission's proposals for Council
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legislation are made public and are available to this House.
Baroness TWEEDSMUIR of BELHELVIE: My Lords, is the Minister aware, since this Question refers to statements by United Kingdom Ministers, that the world's Press are in attendance outside the Council Chambers; therefore, interviews are often sought, and many noble Lords learn the result of Council meetings from the public Press. Would it therefore not be better to publish the exact statement so that every noble Lord can peruse it?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, it is undoubtedly a fact that these Press conferences are held at the conclusion of Council meetings, and it is a point for serious consideration as to whether or not an extension of the exceptional practice of publishing statements should be considered. So far we have published, exceptionally, on 1st April and 4th June last year, two basic statements which led us into renegotiation; but the point made by the noble Baroness is really one for consideration.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE: My Lords, can the noble Lord go a stage further and take this interrogative point? Since it is agreed that decisions and resolutions of the Council are matters for publication, would it not also be proper, if a British Minister, in assenting to a resolution or a decision, enters a reservation—as happened at the Energy Minister's meeting last month—that that, too, should be made public?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, with regard to the reservation being published as a statement, I should like to consider that point very closely. I am sure the noble Earl would not expect me to comment at this moment on that rather detailed point.
Lord BROCKWAY: My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether, in view of the controversial statements which are made to the Press, it would not be better to issue a much fuller communiqué than is now issued, one containing a summary of the points of view which are made?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I have considerable sympathy with what my noble friend has said to the effect that statements—not necessarily

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published texts—might well be reconsidered to see whether a fuller statement of what actually has happened could be made, possibly through a Press conference or by some other means.
Lord SLATER: My Lords, can my noble friend tell me how it is that we keep talking about a "Commission", which seems to be in the complete jargon of the countries on the continent of Europe? Is he further aware that this is the jargon that is used in the Council at Strasbourg, where, in fact, we use the term "Committees" and not "Commissions"? Does not my noble friend think that we ought to keep to language that we understand and not simply follow what is happening at Strasbourg?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, as a Welsh-speaking Welshman, I am always in favour of sticking to the purest possible English.

EEC PUBLICATIONS
2.43 p.m.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask the Leader of the House whether he will now arrange for the Printed Paper Office to stock texts of Council Decisions and Resolutions of the European Community and to list these on the weekly buff application form.
The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Shepherd): My Lords, this is a matter which I am willing to discuss with the Chairman of the European Communities Committee. I have already made special arrangements to meet the noble Earl's concern about resolutions which are now deposited in the Library. In regard to decisions, these are included in the Official Journal which is available in the Printed Paper Office. If there are problems still to be resolved, I will be very happy to see the noble Earl and also the noble Baroness, Lady Tweedsmuir, the Chairman of the European Communities Committee.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. May I ask him whether he is aware that decisions appear in the Official Journal only after very great delay—it may be as much as three months—and our concern as Parliamentarians is to know as quickly as possible? Since the documents are in fact published, would it not be well that they were included in the Printed Paper Office's facilities?
Lord SHEPHERD: My Lords, I understand that those matters in Resolutions which are of great national importance are in the Official Journal within a matter of a few days. There are some Resolutions which take some three or four months before being printed. I am advised that these are matters of relatively minor importance, which have been delayed because of the priority given by the authorities in Brussels in the order of printing.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that further reply, and not wishing to press him unduly, may I ask whether he is aware that the decisions of the Energy Ministers in September and December had not been published by the time they met again in February, even in the Official Journal? Although they were of an omnibus character, and might be described as coming under the heading of "Take note" Resolutions, they were important to our energy policy, and there was no other way of getting them except by much research, digging and inquiry.
Lord SHEPHERD: My Lords, I know that there are exceptions, and these are matters for the Brussels authorities. I am advised, however, that it is a matter of only a relatively few days before these Resolutions are recorded in the Journal. But I will look at the points which the noble Earl made, and I repeat that I wish to help the House as much as possible. We are very much in the hands of Brussels, but I will see what can be done to improve the notification of these matters to the House.
Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE: My Lords, while I appreciate the noble Lord's reply, may I ask whether it would be possible, if there are delays in printing certain documents, to

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have cyclostyled versions available for distribution to the Press agencies and other people who might have a legitimate interest in them and who might wish to publish them themselves?
Lord SHEPHERD: My Lords, I understand it is not a question of difficulty of printing here; it is a difficulty of both printing and agreeing to a form of text. I believe that this aspect also takes a certain degree of time. But I repeat that I will see what can be done to improve the distribution and notification to this House.
Lord SHINWELL: My Lords, I noted that my noble friend said that we were very much in the hands of Brussels. Could we regard that as the understatement of this century?
Lord SHEPHERD: My Lords, perhaps it was the biggest slip of my tongue for some time!
Baroness TWEEDSMUIR of BELHELVIE: My Lords, while thanking the Leader of the House for his invitation to meet him, which I will of course accept with alacrity, may I ask whether he is aware that this is not only a problem of printing? There is also the problem that decisions which are in the process of being taken by the Council often materially alter the Resolutions which come before the Scrutiny Committee. I wonder whether the noble Lord can give his mind to the question of whether one can have a progress report of our position, and not of the position of other Governments?
Lord SHEPHERD: My Lords, I appreciate what the noble Baroness has said, and this is a difficulty for the Scrutiny Committee. I have given my limited mind to the problem and have not yet found a solution. But if I could meet the noble Baroness and the noble Earl, no doubt we might make some progress towards a solution. Although I must confess I am not too optimistic, I am willing to try.

EEC: HISTORY OF ENTRY NEGOTIATIONS
2.47 p.m.
Lord WIGG: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether in view of the publication of the White Paper entitled Referendum on United Kingdom Membership of the European Community (Cmnd. 5925) they will now publish the official history of the negotiations leading to Britain entering the European Community written by Sir Con O'Neill on a special contractual basis for the Foreign Office.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, the Report was produced for a previous Government. I understand that it is a confidential document which it would be inappropriate to publish.
Lord WIGG: My Lords, may I ask whether the noble Lord would be kind enough to explain to the House what can be inappropriate compared with the fact that the British public are now being asked to take a decision which is vital for their future? Should they not be allowed to take the decision, cards on the table, face up? It is imperative that they should know not only the result of the present renegotiations, but also the extent to which Mr. Heath sacrificed the interests of this country for Party political purposes.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I am sure that my noble friend is aware that the Government do not have access to the papers of the previous Government. On the question of making information impartially and fully available to the people, the Referendum White Paper (Cmnd. 5925) sets out under Chapter 4 the very fair and full details of the Government's proposals. What really matters is the final outcome of the accession negotiations, which are a matter of public record. Equally, the final result of the present renegotiation will be made a matter of public record.
Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE: My Lords, is the noble

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Lord aware that the attack upon Mr. Edward Heath by the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, is very much resented on this side of the House and has not the smallest relation whatever to truth?
Lord WIGG: My Lords, would my noble friend—
Several Noble Lords: Order!
Lord SHINWELL: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that nobody is making an attack on Mr. Edward Heath? If anyone is making criticism of Mr. Heath they are members of the Opposition who have imputed all kinds of base motives—
Several Noble Lords: Order! Order!
Lord SHEPHERD: My Lords, would my noble friend give way? I think he should not follow the example of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, in seeking to turn a Question Time into a form of debate. I would hope therefore that my noble friend would put what he has to say in the form of a question.
Lord SHINWELL: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that when the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham, makes a statement which is inaccurate and which is a criticism of a noble Lord on this side of the House, we should be permitted to respond by asking a question too? That is all I was proposing to do. The question I was about to ask when I was interrupted—as it seems to me quite unnecessarily—was whether my noble friend was aware that there had been no criticism of Mr. Heath and that, so far as I am concerned, I would deny anybody the right to criticise Mr. Heath unjustly? To ask a question about the original Question, can my noble friend say whether the official Report was undertaken by Sir Con O'Neill when he was an official of the Foreign Office or when he left the Foreign Office, and what is meant by a "contractual" contract? Does that mean that he was paid when be had left the Foreign Office?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, addressing myself to the latter part of my noble friend's question, on 24th January, 1972, the News Department of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office announced that Sir Con O'Neill,
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the leader of the official negotiating team, would be giving up his departmental duties at the end of that month. They added that the then Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary had asked Sir Con to write a personal account of the negotiations, for official purposes. The position, therefore, was that Sir Con was giving up his regular professional connection with the Foreign Office and was asked, quite properly, by the then Foreign Secretary to undertake this memorandum, which was exclusively meant for official purposes.
Lord WIGG: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that his last statement invalidates his first Answer, because in his earlier Answer he was hiding behind the respectable dictum that no Administration should see the papers of a previous Administration? I am not asking for that: I am asking for the publication of a Report, paid for out of public funds, which the people of this country are entitled to see before they make up their minds. That is the point.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I do not quite see the dichotomy to which my noble friend refers. On the second point, it is not unusual for a Department to ask a former official to prepare a Report or a memorandum on this basis and for that Report to remain confidential to the Department in question.
Lord GLADWYN: My Lords, would the Government agree, in view of the insistence that has been laid on having cards on the table, to publish a short summary of the advice tendered to the Prime Minister on the subject of Europe by the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, when he was employed at No. 10 Downing Street?
Lord WIGG: My Lords, I am in favour of having all the cards on the table, not just some of them. Is not my noble friend aware that Mr. Mark Arnold-Foster has now researched the documents which led up to the outbreak of the war, and that it has been established beyond any shadow of doubt that the Foreign Office at the time gave thoroughly bad advice which was not known to the British public? Is my noble friend aware that once again we are being led by the noses up to a point where we are being asked to take a decision with only partial knowledge; and is

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the Foreign Office not seeking to hide the facts because it is highly inconvenient that they should become known?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, there is no question of hiding the facts. The noble Lord's contribution is not a question; it is an expression of opinion and, as such, would have been much better deployed in debate than at Question Time.
Lord SHINWELL: My Lords, do I understand from my noble friend that Her Majesty's Government refuse to publish this document or even to provide a summary? Do I understand it to be the position that the document is regarded with the utmost confidentiality? Surely there must be some reason for that? Can my noble friend offer any reason?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords I thought that I had made it clear that documents pertaining to a previous Government are not accessible to their successor Government, except in very exceptional circumstances. I have made it clear that, in the view of Her Majesty's Government, there is no need or propriety in publishing this particular document.
Lord PANNELL: My Lords, is it proposed to ask Sir Con O'Neill on a contractual basis to write a recital of those events specially for the present Government?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: Not so far, my Lords.

EVIDENCE (PROCEEDINGS IN OTHER JURISDICTIONS) BILL
Brought from the Commons, read la; and to be printed.
DISEASES OF ANIMALS BILL [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
CRIMINAL JURISDICTION BILL [H.L.]
Report received.

CHILDREN BILL [H.L.]
2.58 p.m.
The LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord Elwyn-Jones): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now further considered on Report.
Moved, That the Bill be further considered on Report.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Clause 11 [Parental agreement]:
Lord SIMON of GLAISDALE Lord SIMON of GLAISDALE moved Amendment No. 10A:
Page 7, line 39, at end insert—
"(6) Subject to subsection (3), if the parent or guardian has once agreed to the making of an adoption order under subsection (1)(b), he shall be deemed, for the purpose: of subsection (2)(b), to be withholding his agreement unreasonably if he subsequently withdraws his agreement, unless the court is satisfied that such withdrawal is likely to safeguard and promote the welfare of the child."
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, I put down this Amendment at the same time as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wigoder, put down his Amendment to Clause 2 of the Bill. I did so really as a fall-back position in case his Amendment were not carried. I am very ready to concede that the noble and learned Lord's Amendment having been carried last Thursday—to the great improvement of the Bill—this Amendment is not nearly so necessary as it would have been. Nevertheless, as this present Amendment goes rather further in dealing with a certain situation, I redrafted it and left it on the Marshalled List for your Lordships to consider whether it would still be desirable, notwithstanding the fact that Clause 2 had been amended.
My Lords, I mentioned that the Amendment deals with a certain situation, and that is one which in my experience—and this clause deals with forensic processes—has given rise to very considerable difficulties. In mentioning my own experience, I must at the outset, in view of what has been said by noble and learned Lords, disclaim any right to speak with authority on these matters. It is true that I have naturally had considerable responsibility to discharge in relation to children, but I cannot claim

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to have any particular expertise, it being only marginal in so far as adoption and care is concerned
Even within the purely legal sphere, a county court judge of the experience of Judge Stockdale, who took over the Houghton Committee after the death of the first chairman, has immensely greater experience than I have, and when I venture to differ from the Houghton Report it is with considerable diffidence. But as I say, this clause is concerned with forensic processes. The particular problem with which your Lordships are concerned on this Amendment is the case where a mother—generally a mother and usually an unmarried one—gives her agreement to adoption but subsequently withdraws it.
Your Lordships are well aware that Clause 11 is the old, although also the present, procedure, and that Clause 13 institutes very advantageously a new procedure. I do not ask your Lordships to review in the light of Clause 13 the matter that I wish to urge on you, but so far as Clause 11 is concerned, it re-enacts the existing law. So far as I have been able to judge—and in this matter it is really the representatives of local authorities, the spokesmen for the adoption societies and, indeed, those who have had personal experience of the problems of adoption, who can speak with particular authority —on the basis of my experience, the situation where a parent or guardian, and particularly an unmarried mother, gives her consent and then seeks to withdraw it, creates a position of great difficulty, especially for the adoptive parents, who may have had the child in their custody for some time before the withdrawal of adoption. It is a problem with which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, dealt in giving a judgment in your Lordships' House in the case called Re. W. This again was considered in rather exceptional circumstances, and there is also the case to which the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, referred last Thursday.
The difficulty is that the unmarried mother is in a position of great trauma, having been abandoned to bear a child in those circumstances. Until the implementation of the recommendations of the Finer Report—which, I think, we should all like to see enacted as early as possible
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—I have no doubt a woman in that position will continue to have advice that it is in her interest in many circumstances that she should allow the child to be adopted and endeavour to remake her life as soon and as much as possible. That advice is given from the highest motives, but at the moment there is a great danger that a mother going through the traumatic experience I have described will come to regret the consent she has given and seek to withdraw it. Clause 11(3) is a very great improvement on the present position. It states that an agreement is ineffective for the purpose of subsection (l)(b)(i) if given by the mother less than six weeks after the child's birth. That seems wholly right, but once one has given that safeguard and if, nevertheless, consent has been given after that time and is subsequently withdrawn, the welfare of the adoptive parents and, indeed, of the child—though it is not in a position to consider its own welfare—is liable to be prejudiced. The proposal in this Amendment is that in those circumstances the withdrawal shall not be valid for the purpose of the provisions of Clause 11(2)(d)—withholding agreement unreasonably—unless it is shown that the withholding of agreement is in the interest of the child.
That demands consideration of a phrase we now use almost automatically; namely, that the welfare of the child shall be the first and paramount consideration. Why do we say this? I ventured to give two reasons when we discussed the matter in Committee. One is the rather arid sociological reason that the continuity of society justifies the preference of the welfare of a child to the welfare of a parent or, indeed, of any other adult. The second reason is the very vulnerability of a child, the fact that a child is liable to be hurt more than an adult in situations where their interests conflict. In many cases the interests will not conflict. In most cases it is very much in the interest of the child to be brought up by a parent—or preferably both parents—and that identity of interest will be strengthened if the recommendations of the Finer Committee are implemented.
The third reason I find difficult to express without seeming harsh. It is that in the circumstances I have envisaged, where the interest of the child conflicts

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with the interest of an adult, it means that the adult has failed in the responsibility that society has put on him or her to safeguard and promote the welfare of the child in the interest of the continuity of society. I say it sounds harsh, because almost always the circumstances are the break-up of a marriage where the spouses have obviously been cheated of the felicity that they were looking for in each other's companionship, or where an unmarried mother brings a child into the world where obviously her love has been betrayed.
Nevertheless, those three reasons seem to me to be valid reasons why one should, in certain circumstances of conflict, prefer the interests of the child. In my respectful submission to your Lordships, one of those circumstances is where a parent or guardian has once, after the lapse of six weeks, given agreement to the adoption and then seeks to withdraw it. In many cases, that withdrawal will be in the interests of the child, but, if it is not in the interests of the child, your Lordships may well think that it is the interests of the child which should prevail. It is for that reason that I have pursued this Amendment. It goes a little further than the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, to Clause 2, though it runs parallel to that Amendment in language. It goes further than that, in that the onus of proof is reversed. It is for the person seeking to withdraw agreement to show that that withdrawal is in the interests of the child.
Finally, may I make this plea to the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack —and I hope that what I say will not cause offence, in view of our old friendship, personal, professional, and Parliamentary. I thought that when the noble and learned Lord replied to the debate on Thursday on Clause 2, he seemed, if I may say so, to be under the impression that this Bill had been prepared in the office of the Parliamentary draftsman to the Medes and the Persians. If the noble and learned Lord's brief in reply to this debate is drawn at all on those lines, I beg him to put it aside and to reply from the true warmth of his own heart and the true receptiveness of his own mind. We are, after all, concerned here with the welfare of a child. I beg to move.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I should like to make a brief inter-
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vention at this stage—in view of the words which have fallen from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon of Glaisdale— in order to say that he may be reassured that my noble friend Lord Wells-Pestell will be replying.
3.14 p.m.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I do not claim to belong to either the Medes or the Persians, but the noble and learned Lord's Amendment has caused us to consider very carefully, over the greater part of the past weekend, what he proposes. We recognise the approach which the noble and learned Lord brings to this matter, and I hope that at the end of what I have to say he may feel able to come to the conclusion that perhaps, after all, this Amendment, for reasons I hope to show, is not necessary. As I understand the situation, this Amendment would insert a new subsection to provide that, once a parent has attached his agreement to an application for an adoption order, he shall be deemed to be withholding his agreement unreasonably if, at the court hearing of the application, he wishes to withdraw his agreement and cannot satisfy the court that such withdrawal is likely to safeguard and promote the welfare of the child.
This Amendment is intended to deal with the situation which causes—and one recognises this; social workers recognise it particularly—a good deal of distress not only to would-be adopters and natural parents but, if I may say so from some personal experience, also to the judges and magistrates who are confronted by a parent (usually the mother) who has changed her mind about having her child adopted and is no longer willing to agree to an adoption order being made. At the time the case is heard, the applicants for the adoption order will have had the child in their care for at least three months and are almost certain that the child will become legally theirs. Fortunately, in about 98 cases out of a 100, there is no difficulty and the adoption order is made. But as the noble and learned Lord has pointed out, there are occasions, although not numerous, where a parent does change her mind at the last minute. As the noble and learned Lord has stressed, and as I have said, there cases are exceedingly distressing, and this was one of the problems to which

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the Houghton Committee attempted to find a solution—and I use the word "attempted" advisedly.
Basically, in a matter having such final and irrevocable consequences, the parent must be given the opportunity to consider and reconsider her decision so long as she continues to hold all parental rights. The Amendment fails to provide this and the onus is put on the mother to satisfy the court that she has more to offer the child than the applicants. It is this that exercises our minds. It must be remembered that once a mother has signified her agreement and the application is made to the court. Section 34 of the Adoption Act 1958 (as rewritten in Clause 30 of the Bill) prevents the parent or guardian who has given consent from withdrawing the child from the custody of the applicant; the application must therefore proceed to a hearing even if the parent's circumstances have drastically changed. She may, for example, have married the child's father or found some means of enabling her to support the child herself. As the law stands at present, the court would have to satisfy itself that the parent's agreement should be dispensed with on one of the statutory grounds. The Amendment would however, in this one instance, place the burden of proof on the parent who wished to withdraw agreement. The law already gives some protection to those who apply to adopt on the basis of agreement given by the parent, in that they are able to secure a hearing on the merits.
It would not be desirable to go further and provide that the balance on the merits is tilted against the parents in such cases. It is not of course possible to foresee exactly what the consequences of such a change in the law might be, but it is likely that some parents, when the implications are explained to them, might decide to withhold their formal agreement until the court hearing. I want to emphasise that particular possibility. This would not only enable them to withdraw their child from the applicants at any time before the hearing, but would also ensure that they retained their rights to agree or disagree until the order was made. On balance, therefore, I suggest that the would-be adopters, and, above all, the child, would stand to lose more than they would gain by the Amendment.
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The Government recognise the concern which lies behind this Amendment, and believe that other recommendations made by the Houghton Committee and given effect in the Bill will reduce the number of such painful conflicts. One recognises that as things stand, this situation will arise occasionally. First, the alternative procedure, for enabling a child to be freed for adoption before it is adopted, will enable parents to give early final agreement to adoption and will provide the opportunity for any uncertainty about agreement to be sorted out before the would-be adopters become involved in court proceedings.
Secondly—and I should like to emphasise this point to the noble and learned Lord—the parents' initial agreement to adoption will have to be witnessed by an adoption officer, who will have a duty to ensure that the parents are agreeing freely after having considered ail the implications of and alternatives to adoption. Where a parent has chosen to use the procedure which involves agreement being given to an adoption by specific adopters which is the procedure to which this Amendment would apply—and this is the situation which I think the noble and learned Lord has in mind—the adoption officer's function should help to bring out uncertainties at a much earlier stage and reduce the number of such cases which are likely to reach the courts. Finally, the improvements which the Bill will help to bring about in agency practice, and the access which the new service will have to other social services, should help to ensure that parents who decide to have their children adopted will do so with more assurance and confidence that that is the best solution for the child.
I would, with great respect, say to the noble and learned Lord that there are, as he recognises, two aspects to this matter. One is where the child is free and the parent or guardian who has freed the child does not know ultimately where the child is going. I know that the noble and learned Lord has concentrated on the second aspect where it is a specific adoption, and, as I say, one recognises the difficulties which he set out so clearly. But we feel—and I ask him to accept this—that it is ultimately in the children's interest that this situation should not

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arise, in case it becomes the practice— more so than it is at the moment—for parents in such circumstances not to give agreement in the early stages, for fear that they will find themselves in this position. It is for that and other reasons which I have given that I hope I have satisfied the noble and learned Lord.
3.24 p.m.
Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE: My Lords, I do not want to say very much, but I do not want it to be thought that we on this side of the House either have no opinions about a matter of this importance, or that we are indifferent to which of the two opinions is held. This is, of course, a very difficult question and, as the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, has said, those of us who have seen in practice the kind of mental agony to which the situation visualised gives rise would not wish to dogmatise about it, nor to speak lightly of it. There is no Member of this House, and probably very few people outside it, to whose professional opinion or to whose personal opinion in matters of this kind I would more willingly defer than that of my noble and learned—and, if he will allow me to say so—friend Lord Simon of Glaisdale, whose experience is far greater than mine even though he modestly disclaimed any authority at the beginning of his speech.
I make two comments on the Amendment as it stands, which I think brings me down rather hesitantly on the side of the Government, though belonging neither to the Medes nor the Persians but rather—so long as we occupy this side of the House—to the ranks of Tuscany. But whenever I see the word "deemed" in a Statute—and there is the word in this Amendment—I make a mental note, and the mental note is necessary because I think it is one of the few things which is always true. Where the word "deemed" appears in a Statute, a court is always being asked to find as true something which it would not otherwise find as true and which therefore may not be true. I do not think that there is any exception to that rule because that is what the word "deemed" means. It would not be necessary if the court was going to find it as true without the deeming provision.
Translated into this Amendment, that means that a woman's, or a man's—but
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it is usually, as has been said, the mother's—consent is deemed to be unreasonably withheld when it has not been unreasonably withheld, or when the court would not find that it had been unreasonably withheld. Of course there is the escape provision at the end, if the woman can satisfy the court that it is in the interests of the child that the consent should be withheld, but the burden of proof is on her. I personally tend to think that the court should be free to come to its own decision after having considered all the facts without a presumption either way. I am saying this in the knowledge that my noble and learned friend Lord Simon is, of course, right that in many of these cases the woman's consent is being unreasonably withheld if she goes back on her original agreement. She is sometimes being "got at" by religious bodies and, much as I respect religious bodies—and I say this in the presence of the right reverend Prelate —they sometimes operate rather dogmatically and not always in the interests of the children, where children are concerned.
It is true that the woman's consent is very often unreasonably withheld in such cases—and sometimes she has changed her mind more than once—and one is more willing to accept that the change of mind has been more unreasonable than if it had been only one change of mind. But it is not always unreasonably withheld. The noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, visualised a case where a woman's own circumstances might have radically changed for the better between the time when she originally gave her consent and the time when she wanted to change her mind. But I think one has to remember, even if one takes into account the six weeks' provision, that a woman who has borne an illegitimate child—and that is what we are really talking about in the majority of cases, though not in every case—or a widow woman who bears a posthumous child, very often bears it in circumstances of great grief and confusion, and with real agony of mind she may. in the early stages, think it is in the interest of the child that she may never see it again. She may not always be right. I should like to leave it to the court to make up its mind—having seen the woman and having seen the adopters, without the presumption that she is

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being unreasonable—whether or not she is being unreasonable. I would not put the burden of proof on her. I know that this is a very difficult matter and, as I said, I do not dogmatise, but I think it would be wrong of me not to express the opinion even if I do not hold it with Medes' and Persians' obstinacy.
Lord SIMON of GLAISDALE: My Lords, may I have leave to address your Lordships shortly again? I am naturally in your Lordships' hands, not merely formally, as to how we proceed with this Amendment. I personally attach very great weight to the view that has been expressed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, not only because I do so habitually in all matters but because he gave the great seminal development in the law in his speech in this House silting judicially in the case of Re W. I also felt the great force in the observations of the noble Lord, Lord WellsPestell.
I conceded at the outset of introducing this Amendment that it is far less important now in view of the Amendment that your Lordships made to Clause 2 and I respectfully agree also with what the noble Lord said, that the Bill will undoubtedly greatly reduce the painful situations to which this Amendment was particularly directed. Also, if I may say so, there seems to me to be very great force in his point that if we wrote this Amendment into the Bill it might have the unfortunate result that the social workers would seek to persuade the parent or guardian to withhold the consent until the court proceedings were actually on—and we are dealing with a minority of cases. It seems to me that if that were done, it would be to the disadvantage of the child and to the prejudice of parents, couples or people who wanted to adopt a child and to fulfil in that way a duty to society. My own feeling is that in view of the perceptive observations that have been made on this Amendment I ought to withdraw it, and subject to your Lordships' consent, I would wish to do so.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, subject to your Lordships' permission to allow me to speak again, may I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Simon,
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for being prepared to withdraw his Amendment. I think that the House will feel that we have had a very clear exposition of the Amendment from the noble and learned Lord and that we are very much indebted to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, for his intervention which has been helpful to all of us. I am most grateful.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.32 p.m.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL Lord WELLS-PESTELL moved Amendment No. 11:
Leave out Clause 12 and insert the following new clause:
Religious upbringing of child
" . An adoption agency shall in placing a child for adoption have regard (so far as practicable) to any wishes to the child's parents and guardians as to the religious upbringing of the child."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I should like to move this Amendment on behalf of my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor, and with your Lordships' permission to speak also to Amendment No. 12 in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Masham of Ilton, and to Amendment No. 17 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn.
If I say that we have been over this ground before, it is not an over-statement of the situation. We have aired our views on all sides on this matter; and it is because it was difficult to find some measure of agreement in the views expressed that the Government decided to put down this Amendment. We on this side had a great deal of sympathy with the Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, and felt that the best way of dealing with this was by way of regulations. As your Lordships know, there were very strong feelings, and subsequently a vote, that it should be written into the Bill. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, himself—and he will not mind my saying this—was a little unhappy with the wording of his own Amendment which was successful. All that we are concerned to do on whichever side of the House we sit is to find the right wording to meet this rather difficult situation. The Government therefore have put down this Amendment in the hope, and if I may say so, in the belief, that it will be

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acceptable to those noble Lords who had put down previous Amendments.
The effect of Amendment No. 11 would be to remove the provision in Clause 12 which re-states the present law that a parent's consent to the making of an adoption order may be given subject to conditions in respect of the religious persuasion in which she wants the child brought up and instead—and we think this is preferable—to place a duty on the adoption agency in placing a child for adoption to have regard, so far as is practicable, to any wishes the child's parents or guardians may have as to the religious upbringing of the child. The duty would apply to a child freed for adoption at the stage in which placement was being considered.
As the House will be aware, the Government believe that it would be right to implement the Houghton Committee recommendation that it should cease to be possible to give consent to adoption subject to a condition as to the religious persuasion in which the child is to be brought up. The Government accepted this recommendation after wide consultation, for the reasons explained when we discussed this matter in Committee: first, such a condition is unenforceable; and, second—this is of considerable importance—it may prevent some children from being placed for adoption. The Government also shared the Houghton Committee view that agencies should continue so far as possible to have regard to the wishes of the parents in this respect when placing a child for adoption and envisaged that provision for this should be embodied in the relevant regulations, as is suggested in the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, on similar lines to that in the present Adoption Agencies Regulations 1959.
However, the Government have care fully considered all that was said on this subject in Committee on February 4th, and accept the strongly-held view of the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, and others who spoke on that occasion, of the importance, if I may be permitted to cite Lord Hylton, of "writing something into the Bill so that people know where they are". The clause now proposed does just that. It places a clear duty, not dependent on any subordinate legislation, on the adoption agencies to have regard, so far as practicable, to any wishes of the parents
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as to the religious upbringing of the child. We envisage that, as at present, the relevant regulations would ensure that the attention of the parents or guardians was drawn in the Explanatory Memorandum to the adoption agency's duty in this respect. I am assured that there would be no difficulty about providing in these regulations, inter alia, information about an approved denominational adoption society to be made available to the parents.
It has been suggested that regulations should provide that, where suitable adopters of the desired persuasion could not be found within a reasonable time, the agency should seek adopters "having understanding and sympathy for" that persuasion. We think there would be considerable practical difficulties for agencies in trying to comply with such a requirement. While we can hope that, as at present, parents' wishes in this respect will normally be met by putting them in touch with the appropriate denominational adoption society, there are bound to be cases which reach a stage at which the agency, after making all reasonable efforts, has failed to find adoptive parents who will undertake to bring up the child in the desired religious faith. In our view, at that stage an agency should be free to make a placement in the best interests of the child. This is, I think, the essential difference between the restrictive effect of the condition in the present Clause 12 and the effect of the provision we now propose. The latter would allow the principles of Clause 2 of the Bill to be applied as to the welfare of the child in a situation in which it may not be practicable to comply with the parents' wishes, by placing the child with adoptive parents of the desired religious faith. This is likely to be important where the religious persuasion is in a small minority. I think every Member of your Lordships' House is aware that there are such religious persuasions.
I am encouraged by the terms of Amendment No. 12 put down by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Masham of Ilton, and also by Amendment No. 17 which no doubt will be moved by the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn. But I would ask all noble Lords whose names are attached to Amendments to consider what I have said on this occasion and what has been

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said on previous occasions, in the hope that the Amendment down in the name of the Government will be acceptable. I beg to move.
Lord HYLTON: My Lords, I welcome this Amendment I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, for his courtesy not only in writing to me but also in telephoning me well in advance about this whole matter. The Government Amendment is not only more elegant than the one I moved in Committee but also more effective. The point of enforceability has been mentioned, and there is the added advantage that this Amendment takes the whole question back to an earlier stage in the adoption process. For these reasons I shall not be moving my Amendment No. 12. There is only one request I would make to the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell. When the regulations come to be made under the Bill, I hope that he will spell out the matter very clearly indeed, particularly for the benefit of the social workers who will be dealing with cases of this kind. In the present nonconsolidated state of the law, I believe it is the regulations which are turned to first by the social workers. It is therefore of the greatest importance that they should be clearly stated. From what the noble Lord said, I think I am right in assuming that he will be able to incorporate the second point of my Amendment No. 12 in the regulations. I very much hope that that will be so.
3.45 p.m.
Baroness MASHAM of ILTON: My Lords, I would first thank the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor for putting down Amendment No. 11 in his name. Out of the three Amendments dealing with the religious upbringing of children, I prefer Amendment No. 11, because it is simplest and I always prefer what is simplest because it is easiest to understand. I would say a few words about recent events, in case any noble Lord or Lady is to speak against this Amendment. First, I had strong representations from a father, who happens to be Jewish, because he was disappointed that fathers had not been included. They now are included under this Amendment, and I shall be pleased to tell him this. Also, I had an urgent telephone call from
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a Roman Catholic priest in the Midlands who spoke for an adoption society in that area. He felt that Canon Harvey had probably misled the Houghton Committee on views which were his personal views. He has made it clear in a letter, which has been circulated to several of us, that he was speaking of his own personal views. I read from the beginning of a cutting from a paper, which says:
"The Roman Catholic Churches in England and Wales have asked Mrs. Castle, Secretary for Health and Social Security, to ensure that a mother may lay down conditions about the religious upbringing of her child when it is offered for adoption …".
Last Wednesday, I met a lady from York who runs an adoption society which is non-denominational. She spoke strongly of the need for these Amendments. She was surprised that the provision had been taken out of the Bill altogether. She said that such provisions are helpful and give guidelines. So I would say, as the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, has said, that I hope the regulation will be spelt out clearly. I support Clause 11.
Lord DRUMALBYN: My Lords, as the noble Lord has indicated that he would like to take my Amendment along with these Amendments, may I say that I am perfectly willing that this should be done. I would wish to ask only two questions before I make up my mind finally on this matter. The first question is to ask what is to happen if an adoption society manifestly and persistently fails to carry out this provision, which is, after all, mandatory, although it is limited to what is practicable in the circumstances? My second question is to ask whether it is intended to make regulations under this Amendment, or whether the Amendment stands on its own and the Government see no necessity to make any regulations. I am generally well disposed to the Amendment that the noble Lord is moving, although from what I have said he will understand that I was at first sight even better disposed to the idea of my noble friend that there should be a duty rather than a mandatory obligation.
Lord SOMERS: My Lords, I am not in the least speaking against this Amendment, because I have great sympathy with it, but one thought has occurred to me. When a couple adopt a child they

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desire above everything else that that child shall be, to all intents and purposes, their own child and brought up as their child. If there is to be a difference of religious persuasion—I do not say that it will inevitably be the case, but it may prove to be the case—that difference will make a. barrier between the child and the adopting parents for the rest of its life, which is a most undesirable situation. If the child is young, it is not likely to have any great convictions about one religious persuasion or another. But it is essential that the parents should not have to run the risk of there being any barrier between themselves and the child whom they are adopting. In view of the Amendment which has been moved, I think that it is most desirable to try to find adopters who are of the same religious persuasion. I feel that this is a point which must be raised.
Lord GORE-BOOTH: My Lords, the Minister has been kind enough to keep in touch with me. As an adherent to a minority religion, may I thank him for the trouble and concern he has taken over this master. As the noble Lord has said, he has gone a good way towards meeting the very strong feelings of people of different religious persuasions. At the same time, he has avoided a situation in which clearly there was a case for adoption but, under previous dispensations, adoption could not take place. For that reason, I am happy to support Amendment No. 11.
Baroness YOUNG: My Lords, may I intervene very briefly in the debate to take this opportunity of thanking the Government for bringing forward this Amendment. We had a very long debate on this subject at Committee stage. Very strong feeling was expressed on all sides then that, as originally drafted, the Bill was not satisfactory with regard to the religious upbringing of a child. I personally am very happy to accept this Amendment of the Government, which I think meets the very real fears of people that those parents who wish to express a view about the religious upbringing of their child may do so. At the same time, it gets over the very real difficulty that, after reasonable steps have been taken to try to find suitable adopters, the child may be adopted by somebody who is not of the same religious per-
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suasion. In this respect, I think that it meets those two difficulties, and for that reason I am very glad to welcome it.
I was also very glad to hear what the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, said concerning advice about denominational adoption societies being given to prospective adopters. I think that this is very important. There will be very many parts of the country where a denominational adoption society will not be in existence and where it will be necessary to go to another part of the country to find out about this. I think that the mechanics of this aspect are very important so that the wishes of the natural mother may be respected. However, we on this side of the House are glad to support this Amendment and we thank the Government for bringing it forward.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, with your Lordships' permission perhaps I may be allowed to reply to the specific questions which have been put to me. The noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, asked what would happen if an adoption society refused to carry out this provision. The short answer is that all adoption societies must have the approval of the Secretary of State. I imagine that if they do not Irve up to the standard which is required of them, the approval could be withdrawn. I think that this would be the way to deal with it.
The noble Lord also asked whether this matter will be included in regulations. I know that, so far as she is able to do so, it is the intention of the Secretary of State to spell out in regulations not only this matter but a large number of other matters so that adoption societies and local authorities will know what is required of them. I can see no reason why the "i"s should not be dotted and the "t"s should not be crossed.
The noble Lord, Lord Somers, asked what would be the position if a difference arose between the child and the adoptive parents. I tried to make it clear that the whole purpose of this Amendment is to ensure that adoption societies not only take into account the wishes of the parent or guardian so far as religious matters are concerned but also introduce to the appropriate denominational society guardians or parents of a particular religion. It may not always be possible so

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to place a child; the Amendment says, "so far as is practicable". I think that there are many Members of your Lordships' House who could testify to the fact that parents have taken a child and brought it up in a faith other than their own. It may well be that this sows the seeds of difficulties, but some of us know where it has, in fact, succeeded.
I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Young, for her comments and observations. She is quite right when she says that this is an example of where the careful thinking—and, if I may say so, the prolonged thinking—of your Lordships' House has brought about a change. Before this Bill is finally dealt with, I shall be thanking her on a number of occasions for the points she has raised. Sometimes we shall take these points on board; we may even be able to give some of them to her. However, I do not know about that. Whatever the result we shall be grateful to her because, although she has given us a lot of work, it has been worth while.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 13 [Freeing child for adoption]:
3.57 p.m.
Baroness YOUNG Baroness YOUNG moved Amendment No. 13:
Page 9, line 4, leave out subsection (7).
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I have put down this Amendment, because the House will recall that we had a very long discussion on this particular point at Committee stage. It turned on what was then Clause 12 but what is now Clause 13. Clause 13 is concerned with this new principle of reliquishment for adoption. May I say right at the beginning that I support entirely this new idea, based as it is on the Houghton Committee's recommendations. I am sure that it is a principle which will be of great benefit not only to the natural mother but to the adoptive parents.
Clause 13 sets out how this will work. However, when we reach Clause 13(7) I am concerned about the obscurity of the wording, particularly in Clause 13(7)(c). I am not a lawyer, but it seems to me that in subsection (7)(c) we are involved in a circular argument. From my reading of the Marshalled List, I see that the noble and learned Lord the Lord
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Chancellor has put down an Amendment to redraft that subsection. I think that his Amendment explains much more clearly what it means. I am not trying in any sense to be difficult about this. If, however, I have understood the Amendment, which I think is infinitely clearer than the Bill as printed. I am still not very happy about the subsection, for the following reason. I have indicated that I support the relinquishment procedure, but it seems to me that the natural mother ought to be able to choose either procedure when she is seeking to have her baby adopted; namely, either to do it by the procedure which has always been accepted and which will continue to be accepted when this Bill becomes law, or alternatively by the new procedure of relinquishing her child to an adoption agency: the socalled freeing of the child for adoption.
It seems to me that what subsection (7) is saying is that pressure ought to be put upon the mother to have the relinquishment procedure rather than the other procedure. If I may suggest it, I think that this would be a mistake. It seems to me that if the natural mother wants to know if her child has been adopted by a particular family and is settled, which is what the other procedure means, she ought to be entitled to know. I realise that she is entitled to do so under the Bill, but I think it would be a pity if the implication of the Bill, when it comes to be carried out by social workers, is that it is much more desirable that she should relinquish her child under the Clause 13 procedure. In saying this, I am saying what the Houghton Committee recommended in their Report.
In chapter 172 of paragraph 8, which is entitled "Consent to Adoption", they say:
"We have tried to devise a system which will provide flexibility and choice, protection for the mother against hasty, ill-considered decisions or pressure from other people, and protection for the child and adoptive parents from undue delay and uncertainty."
This is the relinquishment procedure. They then go on to give, in the final appendix to the Report, Appendix E, suggestions for an explanatory leaflet to be given to the mother, and they suggest at the end, on page 135:
"The choice of procedure is yours. The agency will explain to you the advantages and

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disadvantages of the two procedures, and suggest which is most appropriate in your case, taut it is for you to choose."
It is surely right that the natural mother, having had it all explained to her, should be able to choose what she should do about it, and I should like to have a reassurance from the Government that their new subsection as drafted gives this mother the right to choose.
My fears in this matter are based not only on the Report of the Houghton Committee, which I think suggests that either alternative ought to be available to the mother. My fears are shared by both the directors of social service and the British Association of Social Workers who have written to me on this point. Therefore, I hope I have said enough on this Amendment to indicate that we on this side of the House support the principle of relinquishment in Clause 13, but we believe that the two alternatives ought to be available for the mother so that she can decide, on the basis of advice that she gets, what is best for her in her circumstances. That seems to me only right and that is, fundamentally, the reason why I have tabled this Amendment. If subsection (7) were left out, I do not believe that the relinquishment procedure would be in any way harmed; it would remain there and I think the choice for the mother would be clear. I beg to move.
Baroness WOOTTON of ABINGER: My Lords, I fully share the anxiety expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Young, that the option should be clearly open to the mother, but for the life of me I cannot see what there is in subsection (7) which would prevent this. It does not seem to me that it closes the door in any way against the open options which are already available for the mother; either that the child should be placed for a specific adoption, or that it should be freed for adoption. I can see that subsection (7)(c) is perhaps going a little far, but the noble Baroness apparently wishes to exclude the whole of subsection (7). I think she is in a panic.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, in replying on behalf of my noble and learned friend, perhaps your Lordships will allow me to speak to Amendment No. 14 which immediately follows this one. So far as Amendment No. 13 is
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concerned—if your Lordships will allow me to refresh your memories—during the first Committee day on 4th February the noble Baroness, Lady Young, referred to the complexity of subsection (7). It was then numbered Clause 12(7) and my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor agreed to look at it. Having given the subsection further consideration, he has tabled Amendment No. 14 which the Government hope will commend itself to your Lordships.
To deal with Amendment No. 14, this Amendment replaces paragraph (c) of subsection (7) and makes it clear that an agency may place a child for adoption if, having discussed the Clause 13(1) procedure with the parents, it is satisfied that that procedure would not be appropriate, either because the parents or guardians simply do not want to use this procedure and will not therefore consent to the agency making an application; or secondly, because one of the parents or guardians whose agreement is required to adoption is not willing to agree to this kind of adoption order being made.
I think the answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Young, lies in what I am about to say. The purpose of the whole subsection remains the same; that is, to encourage where appropriate the use of the new procedure, because of its benefits to natural parents, prospective adopters and, above all, the child. The Houghton Committee suggested that parents wishing to have their child adopted should be given a choice between the new procedure, whereby their child would be freed for adoption, and the existing procedure, whereby they give their agreement to their child being adopted by specific adopters, whether known or unknown to them. Concern was expressed during consultation that if the two procedures were offered there would be a tendency to use the familiar procedure rather than the new one, and thus the benefits of the new procedure would remain untried. This subsection attempts to meet that criticism without placing undue pressure on parents, and I hope that the new paragraph (c) contained in this Amendment makes it clear, particularly to the noble Baroness, Lady Young.
Baroness YOUNG: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, for his

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explanation of this paragraph. I am bound to say I am surprised that the Government should take the view that adoption societies would be reluctant to use the new method because, certainly, my reading of the Houghton Report, and of all the evidence from people who have long been experienced in the field of adoption work, goes to show that it is a very harrowing experience for the mother to have to decide to give up her child for adoption, to sign the papers and then go back to court again. It is also a very harrowing experience for the adoptive parents, while they wait to see whether or not the child whom they have grown to love will be theirs. It is to overcome those difficulties that this new procedure has been introduced, which we on this side of the House generally welcome very much, and to say now that social workers might be reluctant to use it I find surprising, I should have thought, on the contrary, that they would have welcomed it and would have found it welcomed by the natural parent, and certainly by the adoptive parents.
However, in this Amendment I am not really concerned so much with the adoptive parent as with the natural parent, because, as the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, has said, the natural parent ought to have the right to choose which procedure he wants to use. As I thought, subsection (7) has been put in to make social workers aware of the alternatives and, if there is a difficulty, to persuade the natural mother to use the procedure of freeing for adoption. I think that is the worry about it, that it is putting pressure upon her.
Even after having heard the explanation I am not very happy about this matter, but I shall not press it this afternoon. I can say only that I hope very much that when guidance is given— perhaps in a circular—to adoption societies when this Bill is to become law, it will be made clear that it is the intention of the Government that the natural mother ought to be able to choose either procedure. This seems to be only fair and right and is certainly what the Houghton Committee recommended. That would reassure many professional workers who arc concerned about the way in which
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this clause will be interpreted. With those remarks, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
4.10 p.m.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 14.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 9, leave out paragraph (c) and insert—
"(c) the agency has discussed the question of applying for an order under subsection (1) with each parent and guardian and—

(i) none of them will consent to the making of such an application; or

(ii) one or more of them will not agree generally and unconditionally to the making of an adoption order in respect of the child."—(Lord Wells-Pestell.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL Lord WELLS-PESTELL moved Amendment No. 15:
Page 9, line 25, after ("1971") insert ("or under section 2 of the Illegitimate Children (Scotland) Act 1930,").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I beg to move Amendment No. 15 on behalf of my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor. This composite Amendment relates to Clause 12(7), as already amended on the Committee stage. I made reference to this in the discussion on the previous Amendment. The earlier Amendment was designed to require an adoption society proposing to place a child for adoption to consider the intentions of the father of the child regarding the possibility of his applying for custody in any case, although the child is illegitimate. This intention was not achieved for Scottish purposes, however, and the insertion of the Illegitimate Children (Scotland) Act 1930 puts this to right. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 16.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 26, leave out (" that section ") and insert (" either of those sections ").—(Lord Wells-Pestell.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 15 [Progress reports to former parent]:
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 17A:
Page 10, line 40, leave out subsection (5).
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, it may be convenient to discuss Amendment No. 17A with Amendments Nos. 18A and 18B. Their purpose is to accept the policy underlying Amendment No. 19 to Clause 20 and, indeed, they go somewhat further to meet the purpose: of Amendment No. 19, than does that Amendment itself. At present the Bill follows, at Clause 15(5) and Clause 20(3), the provisions of Section 9(5) of the Adoption Act 1958 which enables rules to be made to provide for private hearings of adoption applications. Rules require the juvenile court and the county court to sit in camera, and enable the High Court to sit in chambers.
In Committee on 13th February, the noble Lord, Lord Sandys, moved an Amendment to require rules to provide for sittings in private without exception. My noble friend Lord Winterbottom dealt with this proposal, but he did not accept it on the ground that it would be necessary to preserve the present discretion given by rule to the High Court to sit in public, so as, for example, to enable a decision to be given in public for the purpose of establishing case law on adoption in terms to protect the anonymity of the parties to the proceedings. There was general agreement in Committee that it would be desirable to place on the face of the Bill the general rule that applications for adoption orders and for orders to free a child for adoption should be determined in private, all these being sensitive family private matters.
The noble Baroness, Lady Young, in particular, suggested that the Bill should say what it meant, which I found to be an impeccable approach to legislation. Subsequently, to pursue the matter, the noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom, wrote to the noble Baroness and suggest that it would not be easy to enact direct provision in. the Bill on the question of private hearings. But we have given further thought to it and hope that the package—if that is not too irreverent a way of describing it—which we have arrived at will meet the wishes of the House. As drafted, these Amendments
1114
relate only to courts in England and Wales. If they are accepted, separate provision will be required for Scotland.
My Lords, the Government's new clause, which your Lordships will see is in Amendment No. 18A, puts on the face of the Bill the substance of the provisions now found in rules for the High Court and for the county court. It provides that proceedings in the High Court under this Part may be disposed of in chambers. by leaving the matter to the discretion of the High Court judge who will normally be anxious to maintain the privacy of the occasion and of all that goes on there. I anticipate that it would be only on occasions, when it was necessary and important to proclaim some statement of the law which would be of value in sub-sequent proceedings, that the ordinary practice of privacy would be departed from.
For magistrates' courts, the proceedings are no longer to be disposed of by the juvenile court but will instead become domestic proceedings, as was recommended by the Houghton Committee. As your Lordships will know, domestic proceedings are not open to the general public, because of Section 57 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1952, and subsection (3) of the new clause in Amendment No. 18A modifies the provision of the Magistrates' Courts Act so as to secure in general that only those involved in the case itself, or in other cases, can be present. Accordingly, I hope that these Amendments will be acceptable to the proposers of Amendment No. 19. They secure private hearings and determinations for the overwhelming majority of adoption applications.
My Lords, the Amendments have been drafted in order to overcome the difficulties mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom. As against Amendment No. 19, they have the advantage that there is no need for a special rule-making power. In principle, if the Bill can declare the law as required and not too much complexity is involved in that operation, it is better to deal with these matters on the face of the Bill than to consign them to regulatory powers. I am sure the House as a whole will agree with that approach.
These Amendments further make uniform provision for all proceedings under Part I. Private hearings will be secured

1115
by Clauses 18(2) and 21, which the Government think desirable. As I understand it, the only difference in substance between the Government's Amendments and the Opposition's Amendments is that, under the Government's Amendments, proceedings in the High Court are not required to be heard in chambers. The Opposition's Amendments require all hearings to be in private. As noble Lords will see, they would enable determinations—that is to say, the decisions of the court—to be made in public, if the rules permitted, in any court. I do not think that the power need be taken for the county courts and the magistrates' courts. It is very rarely that a declaratory statement of the law of substance need be publicised from there, though I say that with every respect for their standing and undoubted learning. The question remains: what is the appropriate provision for the High Court, which disposes of only about 40 cases a year at present, and which will have exclusive jurisdiction under Clause 24?
We have carefully considered whether to follow the Amendment of the noble Baroness on this point, and go to the length of distinguishing between hearings on the one hand, and determinations on the other, in the High Court only. But, on the whole, we have come to the conclusion that it is simpler, and we think perfectly safe, to enact the provision currently in the rules for the High Court and to leave this matter, as in wardship, guardianship and divorce, to the discretion of the High Court judges. As I have said, they will normally wish to preserve the privacy of the proceedings. Accordingly, I hope that this effort which has been made in a somewhat difficult field to meet the suggestions that were made in Committee will achieve the approval of the House. I beg to move.
Baroness MACLEOD of BORVE: My Lords, I wonder whether I heard the noble and learned Lord aright? Did he say that in future adoption orders were to be given in a matrimonial court and not in a juvenile court? The noble and learned Lord is well aware that the juvenile courts have a much wider experience of dealing with children and families than do people sitting in the matrimonial courts. Personally I sit in both courts, but those of us who sit in the juvenile courts—as I do every week
1116
—feel, perhaps wrongly, that we know more about children than do people who are sitting exclusively, and it is exclusively, in London, at any rate, in the adult courts. That is why we are sitting in juvenile courts. I am very perturbed to hear about this proposal and I am surprised that anybody should have recommended it. Would the noble and learned Lord tell me whether I did hear aright?
The LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, if your Lordships will permit me to answer the noble Baroness, whose experience and knowledge in this field is, of course, enormous and to whose opinion, therefore, I and the House will pay most careful regard, it is the case that the Houghton Committee did make this recommendation that these proceedings should be heard in the magistrates' court, and they did so after taking evidence, as I understand it, upon the matter. So the answers to the question is, Yes, these proceedings will no longer be dealt with in the juvenile court but in the magistrates' court.
Lord SANDYS: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack for reaching this very happy conclusion after a protracted debate. I should also like to express gratitude on behalf of my noble friend Lady Young and myself, that the noble and learned Lord, during his absence in Lagos and since his return which we are delighted to welcome today, has been able to fulfil all our wishes at a time when he was so much preoccupied with other weighty matters. Therefore, we are very grateful to him for giving attention to this particular matter.
I think it is important here to refer back to the Houghton Report, and our pleasure is renewed in quoting paragraph 270, which reads:
"The law requires adoption cases to be dealt with in private. We are sure that this is right, and we recommend that this should also apply to guardianship applications."
It is such a constant quotation from Houghton that we are delighted that Her Majesty's Government have thought fit to carry it out in detail.
There is only one small matter upon which I would seek advice from the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, and that is in regard to anonymity. In cases before the High Court where it proves

1117
necessary ultimately in the particular situation which the noble and learned Lord has described, could he give us the assurance that the process of anonymity adopted at present will continue? With that may I once again on behalf of my noble friend Lady Young and myself thank the Government for their help in this matter.
Baroness BACON: My Lords, I intervene very briefly. I am afraid I disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Macleod, about juvenile courts. I agree that in the juvenile courts the Bench are very experienced in dealing with children, but I am not at all sure that these proceedings should be dealt with by the juvenile courts. Although this may not necessarily be so, when a case comes before a juvenile court the general impression is that the children involved have done something wrong. There is that association in people's minds, and I would much prefer the matter to be dealt with as the noble and learned Lord has outlined in his Amendments. Nevertheless, I hope —perhaps my noble and learned friend could give us some information about this—that the time will not be too far postponed when we see a great many of these matters dealt with specifically by a family court, not only the adoption proceedings but the other proceedings outlined in this Bill. I am sure that course would be better than proceeding in the magistrates' court or even the juvenile court.
Baroness MACLEOD of BORVE: My Lords, before the noble Baroness sits down, may I ask her whether she agrees that to go to the matrimonial court is to go to an adult court, and people might think the worst of them for that, too?
Baroness BACON: My Lords, I agree that that is so, and that is why I would rather have a family court that was not a juvenile court or a matrimonial court. But I think of the two I would prefer the suggestions in the Amendments outlined by my noble and learned friend than the juvenile court. I would rather see a family court undertaking all these things.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, if I may, by leave, answer the questions put to me, the question of a family court is still under consideration
1118
and we have not come to a final conclusion upon the matter. That is all I can say in regard to this sisterly difference (if I may, without impertinence, so describe it) which has arisen on this matter. In regard to anonymity, I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Sandys, that the same practice of anonymity so magnificently reflected in the description of In Re W, which gives very little away, will be maintained hereafter in the High Court.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
4.29 p.m.
Lord SANDYS Lord SANDYS moved Amendment No. 18:
Page 12, line 22, leave out ("if the court thinks fit ") and insert (" not").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, we return in Clause 19 to the appointment of the guardian ad litem. Unfortunately, we have not had quite the same satisfaction from Her Majesty's Government in this regard. It would be for the convenience of the House if there were to some extent a restatement of the situation. On Committee, we discussed at some length the question of the appointment of the guardian ad litem. We referred at that time to paragraph 245 of the Houghton Report which clearly sets out the position of the present law requiring the court to appoint a guardian ad litem in all adoption applications. The point at issue is whether the guardian ad litem and the adoption officer should be one and the same person if the court so desires. On Committee, your Lordships listened with great interest to two noble Baronesses with great experience in this field—my noble friend Lady Macleod of Borve, who expressed her opinion of a very large court in the North of London, and the noble Baroness, Lady Fisher of Rednal—and it was clear that from practical experience,, further reinforced from the evidence placed before the Houghton Committee, opinion is very much divided.
Only a few minutes ago I clearly suggested that the Houghton Report was confident in its previous recommendation on the matter to which we have just been referring; that is, the hearing of applications in private. But when it came to this matter, they specifically referred to the division of opinion that exists. If I may be allowed— hope that I am not trying the patience of the

1119
House in this matter, because it is one to which we attach particular importance —I should like to quote from paragraph 247 of the Houghton Report. It said:
"There was a considerable amount of comment on the suggestion that the appointment of the guardian should be discretionary. The evidence presented widely conflicting views. Generally speaking, agreement came mostly from professional social work agencies, especially those involved in adoption placement, work. Some legal and medical associations also agreed. Disagreement focused mainly on two aspects, doubts about present standards of practice of placing agencies and the view that an independent and impartial investigation was necessary as a safeguard to all parties and primarily the child".
We have dealt in very great depth on Clause 2 with the question of the primacy and, also, the importance of the welfare of the child. Here is reflected the conflicting views of the parties. It is our confirmed view—of my noble friend Lady Young, myself, many of my noble friends, and, indeed, it is a view shared by a number of noble Lords from all parts of the House—that there is a strong case that the guardian ad litem and the adoption officer should be two separate people.
My noble friend Lady Macleod of Borve referred particularly to the situation in her own court, and I think that where your Lordships are able to listen to direct experience it has special value. On Committee, the noble Baroness said that, in all circumstances, the guardian ad litem gave a report and the adoption officer was not admitted to proceedings before the court. Clearly the adoption officer carried out his functions in the normal way, which is, of course, to record and witness proceedings and to make suitable disposal of them. But the point which she most clearly made was the necessity, in all cases, for the guardian ad litem and for the appointment of that very important personage.
Throughout Committee stage we were much aware of the situation—which has occurred not only in the case of Maria Colwell but in a number of other tragedies in this field—in which the appointment of officials could have had even greater benefit, had their advice been listened to at an earlier stage. It ought now to be confirmed in the Bill that the view of your Lordships expressed on Committee, and clearly adhered to, is that the guardian ad litem should be mandatory
1120
in all cases and should be a different person from the adoption officer. I do not think it is necessary to quote further evidence at very great length, because we have gone into this business, as the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, is only too keenly aware, and we have not changed our views since Committee. I hope he will appreciate that we read his remarks most closely and paid extreme attention to his views at that time. I beg to move.
4.36 p.m.
Baroness ELLIOT of HARWOOD: My Lords, I should like to support this Amendment which we debated at great length on Committee stage. Since the Committee stage, I have had further communications from social workers and others on this subject. I think it is essential that there should be two people and that, if possible, they should both be knowledgeable social workers. If that is not possible, as has often happened in the case of Scotland the guardian ad litem should be a legal officer or solicitor who obviously knows from the legal point of view all the details of the procedures connected with the case. But there is the other point of view—which I call the social worker point of view— which often a legal mind does not know about. It is extremely important to have someone representing both parties, not necessarily conflicting, but knowing that the two different aspects should not be entirely in the hands of lawyers and that there should be the two persons involved in each case. I am sure it would mean that many of the difficulties, and some of the disasters that have happened in the past, would not take place in the future. I very much hope that the Government will accept this Amendment.
Baroness MASHAM of ILTON: My Lords, can I ask the Minister whether this situation would involve straightforward, uncontested cases? I wonder whether it would put a strain on the adoption societies and social workers?
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, is always persuasive. I have known her for many years and have a natural inclination to try to meet her wishes, but this is one of the few occasions—I hope that it is "few"—when I shall not be able to do so. As I understand it, the intention of the Amendment

1121
is to prevent the court from appointing the same person as both the guardian ad litem and the reporting officer. This Amendment would have the same effect as Amendment No. 21 which was discussed on the second Committee day of 13th February last. What seems not to have been clearly understood by a good many who took part on that occasion, is that court rules will continue to provide that officers appointed as adoption officers and guardians ad litem must be independent of the local authority or adoption society concerned in the adoption. I should have thought that that would meet the noble Baroness's point. The adoption officer will carry out most of the functions at present carried out by guardians ad litem, but instead of only confirming and reporting to the court that the parents' consent to adoption has been given freely, the adoption officer will also witness the agreement of all those whose agreement is required and bring to the court's attention any other relevant matters.
Another point which might be emphasised is that an additional feature and safeguard of the new adoption procedure will be that the agency concerned or, where there is no agency, the local authority, will be obliged under the provisions of Clauses 20(4) and 17(2) to submit reports to the court and to
"assist the court in any way the court may direct".
Thus, for every adoption application the court will have at least two reports, from different sources where at present it has only one—from the guardian ad litem— and if different officers were appointed as adoption officers and guardians ad litem,
presumably it would have three, which would not be necessary. The object of Clause 19 as drafted is to avoid the unnecessary duplication of duties. If, however, the court consider that different persons should be appointed as guardians ad litem and adoption officers, so far as I can see there would be nothing to prevent them doing so. To provide that the court should do so in every case, as the noble Baroness's Amendment provides, would, with respect, be wasteful of social work resources and, unless the case had some special features, unnecessary. I do not know whether I have satisfied the noble Baroness with that explanation. I hope that I have, having pointed out that there would be distinct and quite different functions.
Lord SANDYS: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I should like to have an opportunity of replying to the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell. He has spoken most persuasively of circumstances in which the court may have the opportunity of doing certain things. We are, naturally, drawn along to some extent by his persuasion and we recognise what he said in his speech on Committee, but this situation, which we have discussed at considerable length, we believe to be so important that it should be clear beyond peradventure. It has been our confirmed view in the past and it is reinforced now and we shall, I regret, have to press the Amendment.
4.44 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment (No. 18) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 76; Not-Contents, 48.✶ (See Col. 1170.)

CONTENTS

Aberdare, L.

de Clifford, L.

Hailsham of Saint Marylebone,

Airedale, L.

Denham, L.

L.

Amherst, E.

Derwent, L.

Harvey of Prestbury, L.

Amulree, L.

Ebbisham, L.

Hawke, L.

Balfour of Inchrye, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Hayter, L.

Beaumont of Whitley, L.

Elton, L. [Teller].

Headfort, M.

Berkeley, B.

Emmet of Amberley, B.

Henley, L.

Birdwood, L.

Erroll of Hale, L.

Hornsby-Smith, B.

Bridgeman, V.

Erskine of Rerrick, L.

Hylton, L.

Byers, L.

Ferrers, E.

Hylton-Foster, B.

Caccia, L.

Fraser of Kilmorack, L.

Killearn, L.

Campbell of Croy, L.

Geoffrey-Lloyd, L.

Kilmarnock, L.

Chelwood, L.

Gladwyn, L.

Long, V.

Coleraine, L.

Glasgow, F.

Loudoun, C.

Colville of Culross, V.

Gore-Booth, L.

Lyell, L.

Cottesloe, L.

Grenfell, L.

Macleod of Borve, B.

Cowley, E.

Gridley, L.

Mancroft, L.

Daventry, V.

Grimston of Westbury, L.

Monck, V.

Newall, L.

St. Helens, L.

Tenby, V.

Nugent of Guildford, L.

St. Just, L.

Tranmire, L.

Ogmore, L.

Sandford, L.

Vickers, B.

Platt, L.

Sandys, L. [Teller.]

Vivian, L.

Porritt, L.

Sempill, Ly.

Ward of North Tyneside, B.

Ruthven of Freeland, Ly.

Strange, L.

Wigoder, L.

St. Aldwyn, E.

Strathspey, L.

Young, B.

St. Davids, V.

Swinton, E.

NON-CONTENTS

Ardwick, L.

Gaitskell, B.

Pannell, L.

Arwyn, L.

Gordon-Walker, L.

Peddie, L.

Bacon, B.

Hale, L.

Shinwell, L.

Blyton, L.

Hall, V.

Slater, L.

Brockway, L.

Hanworth, V.

Snow, L.

Bruce of Donington, L.

Henderson, L.

Stedman, B.

Buckinghamshire, E.

Houghton of Sowerby, L.

Stow Hill, L.

Castle, L.

Hoy, L.

Strabolgi, L. [Teller.]

Champion, L.

Jacques, L.

Summerskill, B.

Chorley, L.

Janner, L.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Cooper of Stockton Heath, L.

Lee of Newton, L.

Wells-Pestell, L.

Donaldson of Kingsbridge, L.

Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, B.

Winterbottom, L. [Teller.]

Douglass of Cleveland, L.

Maelor, L.

Wootton of Abinger, B.

Elwyn-Jones, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Mais, L.

Wynne-Jones, L.

Evans of Hungershall, L.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Resolved in the affirmative and Amendment agreed to accordingly.
4.52 p.m.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, this Amendment has already been discussed and considered at an earlier stage. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 19 insert the following new clause:
Hearings of applications etc. in private
".—(1) Proceedings in the High Court under this Part may be disposed of in chambers.
(2) All proceedings in the county court under this Part shall be heard and determined in camera.
(3) Proceedings in the magistrates' court under this Part shall be domestic proceedings for the purposes of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1952 but section 57(2)(d) of that Act shall not apply in relation to any proceedings under this Part."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
Clause 20 [Making of order]:
The LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, this similarly has been previously discussed. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 38, leave out subsection (3).— (The Lord Chancellor.)
Lord WELLS-PESTELL Lord WELLS-PESTELL moved Amendment No. 20:
Page 13, leave out line 26.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I move this Amendment on behalf of my
1124
noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor. This is a drafting Amendment which rectifies an error in the instructions given for the present print of the Bill. The words "subsection (7) should not apply to Scotland" were applicable to the subsection having this number which appeared in the Bill as first printed. That subsection is, however, now removed from the Bill and does not apply.
Clause 23 [Further provisions relating to property]:
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 21:
Page 14, line 22, leave out from ("(1)") to ("a") in line 23.
The noble and learned Lord said, My Lords, this is one of a series of Amendments, including Amendments Nos. 22 and 23, which are technical and which are occasioned by the provisions in the Bill giving rights to the adopted child. They are drafting Amendments relating to the protection given to trustees who distribute trust property without notice of an adoption. The present law in Section 17 of the Adoption Act 1958 protects the trustee from an action for breach of trust if he has distributed without notice but does not prevent the adopted child from following the property into the hands of the other beneficiaries. Clause 23(1) was intended to reproduce the effect of Section 17(3) of the 1958 Act and to enable it to cover the new situation

1125
brought about by Clause 22, whereby a child adopted after the trust has been set up can, by virtue of the adoption, become, or cease to be, an object of the trust. In making this change, however, the clause inadvertently changed the basis of' the protection of the trustee in such matters as the degree of notice required to deny protection, and the liabilities against which protection is afforded. The matter is very technical, and I doubt whether I need explain it further. However, if any explanation is sought it may be forthcoming from an admirable note which I have in front of me.
Lord SANDYS: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord has drawn our attention to the fact that this is a very technical Amendment and I think all your Lordships would say "Hear, hear". On this occasion, knowing that this piece of draftsmanship has been done at a time when proposals are being put forward by Her Majesty's Government in regard to changing the law over the situation of discretionary trusts, with special relationship to the capital transfer tax, it is not perhaps for the convenience of your Lordships' House to go too deeply into this matter, especially as a Standing Committee is at present deliberating on it in another place. I must speak circumspectly in a field where I feel very ill-prepared to do so, but there are necessary safeguards and the noble and learned Lord has given us the assurance that it is a matter on which he confidently expects that your Lordships will not require further information. Although the House perhaps would wish to seek that further note on the matter which he has in front of him, it may well be that it would be better to seek a personal interview with the noble and learned Lord at a stage in our discussions before Third Reading and therefore, for my part and for my noble friends, we do not wish to make any further alteration to what has been proposed by the noble and learned Lord.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. I could enter into these rather labyrinthine and esoteric fields, but I would be happy, indeed happier, to accept his suggestion of a personal discussion about the matter.
The LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, Amendment No. 22 has already been discussed. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 25, leave out ("British or foreign").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 23:
Amendment moved—
Page 14. line 27, leave out from ("made") to end of line 28 and insert ("and, where such an order has been made but the trustee has not received notice of it, he shall not be liable to any person by reason of a distribution of any of the trust property made by him without regard to the order.
(1A) Subsection (1) does not prejudice the right of a person to follow the property, or any property representing it, into the hands of another person, other than a purchaser, who has received it.").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 24:
Page 14, line 31, leave out ("interest") and insert ("property").
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this is another drafting Amendment which amends Clause 23(2) of the Bill so as to speak of property settled with the title rather than of an interest. This is clearer, since the interest may well be the result of the settlement rather than the subject of it, and the Amendment will bring the subsection into line with the present law in Section 16(3) of the Adoption Act 1958. I beg to move.
Clause 27 [Obtaining of birth certificate by adopted person]:
5.2 p.m.
Lord WIGODER Lord WIGODER moved Amendment No. 24A:
Page 17, line 8, leave out ("subsection is") and insert ("subsections are").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move this Amendment which is a paving Amendment to Amendment No. 25B, and with your Lordships' leave I will devote my observations to the latter Amendment. Clause 27 provides that adopted persons when they reach the age of 18 may obtain copies of their birth

1127
certificates. Your Lordships will remember that there was some discussion during the Committee stage as to whether, when an adopted person had reached the age of 16 and was proposing to marry, it was desirable that some information should be made available to that person in order to safeguard him against the possibility of embarking on a marriage with somebody within the prohibited degrees of blood relationship. I ventured to comment at that time that I thought that risk somewhat hypothetical, but both the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, and the noble Viscount, Lord St. Davids, indicated that they had known cases where that situation had arisen. It therefore seems desirable that I should try to introduce a modest measure into the Bill, as sought by Amendment No. 25B. It simply provides that the Registrar General shall provide on application to an adopted person over the age of 16 information as to whether that person
"… and any other named person are within the prohibited degrees of consanguinity."
It may help protect them against the possibilities referred to during the Committee stage. I beg to move.
Baroness YOUNG: My Lords, the House will be aware that we have been very concerned about Clause 27 ever since we first considered this Bill. We on this side have down Amendment No. 25 to which my noble friend Lord Sandys will be speaking. However, a number of points arose on Clause 27 when we debated it in Committee, not least of which was the one which has been raised by the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder. I rise to say that we feel that this is a very useful Amendment to this clause. It seems to meet what could be a difficulty and we should like to support it.
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, is it your Lordships' wish that we deal with Amendment No. 24A, which is a paving one for Amendment No. 25B, both at the same time? The Government are in full agreement with the substance of Amendment No. 25B. During our earlier discussion it was indicated that we felt that such an Amendment would be of value. While the Government are not able to accept Amendment No. 25B as drafted we should like an opportunity,
1128
with the permission of the House, to redraft it as far as practicable to match other relevant Statutes. I am told that it cannot stand on its own and must be related to other Statutes. For this reason I should be grateful if the noble Lord would be content to withdraw Amendment No. 24A and not press Amendment No. 25B, on the understanding that the Government will put down an alternative Amendment, while maintaining the substance of the Amendment put down by the noble Lord.
Lord BYERS: My Lords, is it the intention of the Government to put down this Amendment on Third Reading?
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, this question arises in relation to some other points which we shall have to discuss later this afternoon. This is a matter of importance. I cannot give an undertaking that an Amendment will be put down on Third Reading or whether it will be in another place, but it will be put down. On that I can give an assurance.
Lord WIGODER: My Lords, I am a little unhappy at the reply given by the noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom. This matter was raised during the Committee stage and it was then indicated quite explicitly by the Government that they would be prepared to put down an Amendment at this stage. It was only because no such Amendment emerged that at the very last moment I ventured to draft something which could be put down in this way. It is desirable that your Lordships' House, having been given the opportunity of dealing with this Bill in the first place should send it forward in as near perfect a condition as is possible. In those circumstances, I very much hope that the noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom, will see that the appropriate Amendment to replace this Amendment is before this House when we come to Third Reading. On the understanding that that will be at least considered as a matter of urgency by the Government, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER (Baroness Tweedsmuir of Belhelvie): My Lords, before I call Amendment No. 25 I should

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point out that if this Amendment is agreed to I cannot call Amendment No. 25A.
5.8 p.m.
Lord SANDYS Lord SANDYS moved Amendment No. 25:
Page 17, leave out lines 10 to 16 and insert:
(""(7) An adopted person born in England and Wales after 1st January 1976 who has attained the age of 18 years may apply to the local authority for the area in which he is residing for such information as is necessary to enable him to obtain a certified copy of the entry relating to his birth in the register of live-births; and the local authority shall after considering the application and discussing the matter with that adopted person, request the Registrar General who shall supply him, on payment by him of the prescribed fee (if any), with that information.")
The noble Lord said: My Lords, we now reach the point when we are discussing once again the question of birth certificates which, during the Committee stage, caused your Lordships a considerable amount of concern. This Amendment, as set out, would enable a procedure to take place whereby an adopted person born in England or Wales after 1st January, 1976, and who has attained the age of eighteen years could, after consulting a local authority and with the consent of the local authority which arranged the adoption in the first place —and having been granted permission by that local authority—approach the Registrar General.
This proposal carries forward the tone of the Houghton. Report which recommended that there was a very strong body of opinion which considered that law in England and Wales should be brought into line with law in Scotland where, for a long time, it has been possible for an adopted person to obtain a birth certificate record in somewhat parallel circumstances. We went into the Houghton Committee's recommendations in detail earlier, and I do not think it necessary to repeat the quotations to your Lordships this evening. However, the redrafting of this Amendment—which has been done with advice—closely co-ordinates with what the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, has been attempting to do. I would most warmly welcome what he said, that the intention of your Lordships is that the Bill should proceed from this House in as perfect a condition as is humanly possible.
If the Amendments which the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, has in mind are to be placed before your Lordships by the Government as a proposal on Third Reading, I think we have very little to fear. If, however, the Amendments which come forward are unsatisfactory and do not meet the suggestion which the noble Lord has made, we will be placed in a somewhat difficult position, because this Amendment, which flows from it, is rather closely interconnected.
I am placed in a somewhat difficult position, this being Report stage, as I shall address your Lordships on only one occasion. I had intended to ask the noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom, whether he had a similar idea of redrafting procedure for this Amendment as well. The noble Lord shakes his head, and therefore the situation is clear. My Lords, I do not think it would be for the benefit of the House to retrace our steps on this issue. On this side of the House our minds are very clear as to what we wish to do. We feel that it is desirable in these circumstances that a birth record should be available, at the discretion of the local authority. I am certainly encouraged in that position by professional advice which has been received. I therefore beg to move.
5.11 p.m.
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, in the case of Amendment No. 25 I am unable to give the same undertaking as I gave the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, not for any particularly factious reasons, but because we believe that it will not achieve the ends which both sides of the House, and all three Parties, wish to achieve. We believe that whereas the Amendments standing in the name of the noble Lords, Lord Byers and Lord Wigoder—that is, Nos. 24A and 25B— make it somewhat easier to get access to birth certificates, this Amendment will make it more difficult for reasons which, if your Lordships will forgive me, I will explain at some length.
The noble Baroness, Lady Young, raised the issue, and it would appear that Amendment No. 25 would defer until 1st January 1994 the bringing into operation of the Houghton Committee's recommendation, to which this clause gives effect, that adopted persons of 18 and over should have the right to obtain

1131
copies of their birth certificate. This seems a rather peculiar situation, and if the noble Lord, Lord Sandys, is inhibited by the rules of the House from speaking again the noble Baroness might have something to say on the subject.
Furthermore, the adopted person would be required to apply to his local authority for the information necessary to enable him to obtain a copy of his birth certificate, and the local authority after considering the application (but with apparently no discretion to refuse it) and discussing the matter with the adopted person, would have to ask the Registrar General to supply him with the necessary information. We believe that this would be an additional barrier to achieving easy access to the birth certificate required by the individual.
This Amendment would not prevent adopted persons, who already had information about their original name and date of birth, from obtaining their birth certificates by applying to the Registrar General in the same way as a person who has not been adopted. As the basic information is available on every adopted person's adoption order, even under the present law the adopted person has only to get hold of a copy of this to get access to his birth record and to the information which his birth certificate contains about his natural parents. If, therefore, the purpose of the Amendment is to protect natural parents against the possibility of being traced, it suggests a misunderstanding of the present law. Furthermore, it would discriminate against adopted persons who do not have the initiative or confidence to obtain the necessary information themselves, or a sufficiently secure relationship with their adoptive parents to obtain the information from them.
Moreover, this Amendment would help to perpetuate the myth which seems to exist at present about the confidentiality of adoption. It is not true—and I must emphasise this—that natural parents cannot be traced under the present law; they can be. In this respect, therefore, if the Amendment seeks to deal with the point made at earlier stages of the Bill about retrospection, then, in our opinion, it is misconceived. While the Government understand and sympathise with the fears and anxieties that have been
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expressed on behalf of natural parents, experience in Scotland, which has been mentioned by the noble Lord, where adopted persons have always had access to their birth records on reaching the age of 17, suggests that these fears are exaggerated.
In replying to the noble Lord, I have to say something positive here. The Government intend by means of rules to carry out some of the other Houghton recommendations relating to this matter. For example, they intend to provide that the name of the adoption agency which arranged the adoption should appear on the adoption order, so that an adopted person may, if he or she wishes, get in touch with the agency for any help or information which he or she may need. In addition, the Government are exploring, in consultation with the local authority associations, the possibility of making the social services automatically available to any adopted person who applies to the Registrar General under this clause. Whether a practical scheme will emerge it is not yet possible to say, but I hope the House will appreciate that efforts are being made to hammer out a practical scheme. I hope for the reasons that I have given—namely, that it narrows the line of approach to the individual seeking a birth certificate; that in bringing in the local authority a new barrier is erected and that the Government are trying to achieve the ends required by the Department's procedures— the noble Lord will not press his Amendment.
Baroness YOUNG: My Lords, I am sure we are all very grateful for the reply of the noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom, and for the great trouble he has taken to go into this matter very deeply. We on this side of the House have also been thinking very deeply about this matter, and we would not have put down the Amendment had we not had quite a number of representations made to us between Committee and Report, not only by people who have adopted children who are very concerned about this point, but also by professional social workers. We have also had representations made to us by a number of Members of your Lordships' House who may not be here today, but who have clearly felt strongly about this point. We are, of course, very glad to hear that there will be

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regulations about the interpretation of this clause, but may I answer some of the points that have been raised?
I am, of course, aware that it is now possible for an adopted person to get his birth certificate, but it is perhaps a fact of life that it is a quite difficult procedure to go through and adopted people may not realise—and I think they do not usually realise—that this is possible. Our concern is that this is retrospective legislation, and it is a concern that is shared by the directors of social service who have made this point in their very valuable memorandum. The first part of our Amendment is designed to meet this point.
Among the people who wrote to me about this matter was a couple who have adopted children, and who give every indication that the adoption is a very happy one. Their point is that the adoption is a happy one; the children are their children, and they belong to the whole extended family. To suggest that somehow they could go back in time and look to see where they came from is introducing the proposition that adoption is not permanent, whereas by its very nature it is permanent. If one takes the classical example of the sort of person who will seek to find his birth certificate, it will almost certainly be the case of an adopted child who is unhappy. So we then have the circumstance of a child, perhaps; reaching the age of 18, who has had an unhappy life—something by which we would be deeply moved and would regret—seeking to find out who are his natural parents. Having got his birth certificate he then goes to the natural parents and, as I said on Committee stage, this could be extremely upsetting for the natural mother who then finds after 18 years (when she thinks that she has put all this behind her and has married, perhaps, and has got another family) that the son or daughter appears on the doorstep.
Equally upsetting could be the fact that the child could have the door slammed in his face; so that he would then have had not only the distressing experience of an unhappy life with adoptive parents but the realisation that once again the natural mother does not want to see him. For this reason we put in the second part of our Amendment whereby the child can only find out about the natural
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parents when there is someone from the Social Services Department with him to explain the circumstances. Otherwise, it seems to me, a situation could arise which could be very cruel not only to the natural parents but also to the adopted child.
We do not know whether the Government fully appreciate the kind of situation that can arise. We tried to find out the circumstances where this would arise, and all professional opinion seems to indicate that although there will not be a large number of cases, those that do arise will always be cases where the adoption is not a happy one; so that one needs to ask oneself whether this clause, as it stands, provides the right procedure. We on this side of the House do not think it does. For this reason, we have put down an Amendment which, first, would prevent this legislation being retrospective in effect; and, secondly, would ensure that where, through his birth certificate, the child found out who were his natural parents, he would be helped by a social worker over this difficult situation. We have considered it carefully and for the reasons given we do not feel able to withdraw it at this stage.
Lord WIGODER: My Lords, may I, for the only time in the course of the passage of this Bill, indicate that I prefer the Government clause to the proposed Amendment. It is difficult to see how it can be said that this is retrospective legislation when, in the first place, existing legislation permits precisely the same thing to happen; and, secondly, it can only apply to anything done after the date that the Bill is passed. All the experience of those who have looked at this matter—and there was, for example, a substantial experiment in Scotland— tends to show that adopted children should be encouraged at a suitable age to find out full information about their antecedents and background; because those who did discover, on reaching the age of eighteen, who their natural parents were, benefited very much and were grateful for the information given to them. I venture to think that this Amendment puts an obstacle in the way of that happening and that that is undesirable. With some reluctance, on this one occasion I must indicate my opposition to this Amendment.
Baroness MASHAM of ILTON: My Lords, before the noble Lord replies,

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may I say that only last week I met a very happily married woman aged about thirty-five who had not had an unhappy childhood but who wanted—merely out of curiosity she told me—to have one look at her natural mother, just to see what she looked like. It was only curiosity; it was not real unhappiness that brought her to this. She did not discover who her mother was; but she was still slightly curious. I think that a social worker might have been involved previously. I am not totally in agreement with the Amendment moved by the noble Baroness.
Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEY: My Lords, I am rather in agreement with the last speaker. It seems to me that this places an obstacle in the path of the young individual who wants to know where he came from. I cannot help feeling that he has the right to know; and this places one more obstacle between him and this knowledge. On the whole, I prefer the Government's viewpoint.
Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE: My Lords, before the noble Lord replies, I wonder whether he would answer two queries of mine—and I am not posing either in a polemical sense—both of which I have asked myself several times during the passage of this Bill. The first is on the merits of this Amendment. I can remember a case in which I was engaged professionally not very long ago when I was practising at the Bar. It was not, as it happened, an adoption case; but I think that noble Lords will see in a moment the relevance of what I am going to say. It was a case where the natural father had murdered the natural mother and the battle taking place was, in fact, between the maternal grandparents and the sister of the natural father. Supposing that the child of that marriage when he grows up—I forget whether it was a boy or a girl; I think it was a boy—wants to find out his antecedents. I wonder whether somebody ought not to warn him not to probe too far. What happens then?
The other question tells on the other side of the Amendment, so I am not dogmatising about this. At the beginning of this Bill, you will see a provision providing that marriages between a natural brother and a natural sister are void and,
1136
that equally, the law of incest applies to a natural brother and a natural sister. It is not always the case that the adopting parents live very far from the natural parents, especially in urban situations. If a young man who is adopted wants to get married, how can he ascertain that he is not marrying his own sister unless he knows something about his natural birth and parentage? What happens if he gets married, and the appalling fact is that he has married his natural sister? Both these things can happen. This renders the subject of acquiring information both difficult and important. It is idle to say that these cases are so rare that it does not matter; because everything that can happen does happen in a population of our size. That is my experience. There is no case so unlikely that you will not find it turn up, even in the course of a single professional lifetime. Therefore, I should like the Government to consider those two possibilities.
Lord SEGAL: My Lords, this Amendment illustrates the appalling difficulties which we are liable to get into when we attempt to legislate in fields of tremendous psychological complexity. It often happens that an adopted child, without any question of an unhappy adoption and with no reflection at all on the parents who adopted him, may wish to discover who his parents are. It is with many children a perfectly natural psychological urge: they want to know who their parents are. The effects of finding out may vary according to the circumstances. I believe that the Government are absolutely right in providing this loophole, so that a social worker can be brought in before any step is taken which may cause a permanent psychological trauma in the case of certain types of people. In cases where the social workers may find themselves in difficulties, they should be obliged to have recourse to expert professional advice. If necessary, a psychologist or a doctor should be at hand to give advice to a social worker who may find himself in this difficulty. I think that the Government's suggestion of bringing in a social worker who is not emotionally involved in the problem would be an enormous advantage. For that reason, I think that if this Amendment were carried to a Division, I would vote against it.
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for the clear exposition of her point of view. I understand the dilemma better now than I did on the earlier stages of the Bill. As I understand it, what this Amendment is designed to do is somehow to provide an additional buffer against emotional shock, either if that shock were suffered by a child whose adoption was unhappy or if the shock were felt by a natural mother who did not expect to see her natural child appearing on her doorstep, or, the other side of the problem, if there were a rebuff of the natural child by the natural mother when it appeared on her doorstep. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, mentioned an even more traumatic situation in the first of his two cases—an established situation where the child of two parents was involved in murder and suddenly discovered this from either his father's sister or his maternal grandmother. Nevertheless, legislating in this area seems to present major difficulties. The Houghton Committee made this recommendation after considering the results of research on the Scottish experience in this area. It was not dreamed up and their recommendations were based on experience. As I understand it, the noble Baroness, Lady Young, and the noble Lord, Lord Sandys, are trying to push this recommendation into the future, when presumably we shall have a greater experience of situations of this kind.
I now have a much clearer appreciation of the buffer mechanisms which the noble Baroness and the noble Lord are trying to introduce, but I am reasonably hopeful that we can achieve the ends sought by the speakers who have associated themselves with the Amendment by administrative means—by putting the services of the local authorities and the social services which are available at the disposal of the child seeking to discover its natural parents on a voluntary basis. The Amendment is attempting to place it on a statutory basis. I believe that the noble Baroness, Lady Emmet of Amberley, is on the side of the Government in this matter, in that she believes that statutory imposition of a barrier would be undesirable. I believe she would agree that the voluntary use of the social services would be helpful in avoiding the traumatic shock which might arise from
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situations such as those that have been described today in your Lordships' House.
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: My Lords, I shall speak briefly. I listened with interest to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone. Reference was made to those exceptions which we know of in life. They have come within my experience over 27 years as a Member of Parliament in country areas. We know of incest happening. On the other hand, it is difficult, unless we can find some administrative formulae, to legislate for these exceptional situations. Can we not leave such cases to be dealt with in court? Supposing an adopted child at age 18 becomes a brilliant pop singer—which is nothing new these days, with pop singers making half a million or a million. He is suddenly killed in a road accident. What is the position? To whom does his money go? The natural mother may know about the position and appear suddenly. This is an exceptional case. But we cannot legislate for the whole gamut of exceptional human activity. Consequently I hope that noble Lords will consider the possible administrative formula which my noble friend has just suggested.
Lord SANDYS: My Lords, I am most grateful to noble Lords and perhaps the House will give me the opportunity of speaking a second time. The noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom, has suggested a course of action which we have scarcely had the opportunity of considering. There are two problems in our minds. One is an element of doubt, a dubiety which is cast upon the Amendment as it stands at the moment. We are worried that if we have to rely on administrative means, the formulation of rules or something of that kind, the situation will not be sufficiently safeguarded. We come back to the test of the late Lord Conesford, the Conesford test, which he constantly applied to assist your Lordships. He would say: "And what is in the Bill?". If we set aside this Amendment there will be nothing in the Bill by which this set of circumstances is catered for. I am much obliged to my noble and learned friend Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone for bringing before your Lordships further problems in this regard and clearly setting before your

1139
Lordships circumstances which in his vast experience have arisen. I think it would be for the convenience of the House, and it is certainly the wish of my noble friend Lady Young and myself that we should withdraw this Amendment and take counsel with the noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom, and his advisers on how best we may reach a satisfactory conclusion, and not press the Amendment this afternoon.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
5.37 p.m.
Lord WIGODER Lord WIGODER moved Amendment No. 25A:
Page 17, line 12, at end insert ("or has married, whichever is the earlier,").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is no longer of the consequence it was since the Government have agreed in principle to accept Amendment No. 25B. If one accepts that adopted persons at the age of 18 are entitled to, and may benefit from, information about their background, there is, perhaps, something to be said for allowing adopted persons before the age of 18, but after their marriage, to obtain similar information. This is not a matter I wish to press, but I would ask the Government whether there are any strong reasons why this proposal is thought not to be desirable. With these few words, I beg to move.
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I am grateful for the helpful approach of the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder. I thought we had almost generally agreed on this point in our last discussion. To take into account the example of incest raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham, which we know has occurred in the experience on the Bench of my noble friend Lord WellsPestell, if this information is sought after marriage it is too late. It is essential that it should be discovered before marriage. For this reason we welcome Amendment No. 25B of the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder. It could prevent a dilemma facing a young couple after marriage if they discovered they were brother and sister, whereas Amendment No. 25 would not avoid this situation.
Lord WIGODER: My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 28 [Restriction on arranging adoption and placing of children]:
Lord WINTERBOTTOM Lord WINTERBOTTOM moved Amendment No. 26:
Page 17, line 42, after ("(3)") insert ("(i)").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, with the permission of the House I will speak to Amendments Nos. 26 and 27 together, which I move on behalf of my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor. Amendment No. 26 simply makes a small rearrangement in the structure of Clause 28 to accommodate Amendment No. 27. The second Amendment changes the penalty for the offence which is set out in Section 29(3) of the Adoption Act 1958 to bring it into line with the other penalty provisions in the Bill; namely, imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months, or a fine not exceeding £100, or both. In addition, the second Amendment is consequential upon the repeal of Section 29(1) and (2) of the 1958 Act which, among other things, made it an offence for anybody except a registered adoption society or a local authority to make arrangements for the; adoption of a child. The provisions in paragraph (a) of Clause 28 substitute a new subsection (1) to Section 29, and the Amendment makes subsection (5) consistent with this. I beg to move.
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 27.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 2, at end insert—
("(ii) for the words "six months" there are substituted the words "three months";
(c) in subsection (5) "subsection (1)" is substituted for "subsection (2)".").—(Lord Winterbottom.)
5.42 p.m.
Baroness YOUNG Baroness YOUNG moved Amendment No. 28:
Page 18, line 2, at end insert—
(" ( ) the following subsection is inserted after subsection (5)—
"(5A) The court by which a person is convicted of a contravention of subsection (1) above may order the child in respect of whom the offence was committed to be placed in the care of the appropriate local authority."").
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, we have put down this Amendment to

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Clause 28, because on reading the Bill it appeared to us that there was a gap in the provisions. Of course, we are all in support of the principle behind Clause 28; namely, that private adoptions shall become illegal. The question, however, which arises is this: if a private adoption takes place and the person comes before the court, what happens to the child in these circumstances? Is the child to be returned to the natural parent who has already placed it privately for adoption? Our Amendment seeks to say that where a person is convicted of a contravention of subsection (1), the child will be committed to the care of the local authority. This seems to us to be a prudent measure and the right measure, in the best interests of the child. Therefore, I hope that the Government will feel able to accept the Amendment. I beg to move.
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, the Government are in full agreement with the principle behind this Amendment and do not wish to dispute the intention. However, I am arguing the case today that the Government believe that the Amendment is unnecessary. Local authorities and the police have sufficient powers to ensure the protection of the child under Section 1 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1969. If a care order is needed, it will be preferable for the local authority or the police to take care proceedings in the juvenile court; and that, I believe, is the wish of the noble Baroness. The court which is dealing with the offence, would not, we believe, be the appropriate court to deal with the care of the child. These are two separate issues, and we believe that they should be kept separate. It is for this reason that, while agreeing with the intention of the Amendment, we believe it to be unnecessary.
Baroness YOUNG: My Lords, I am, of course, very glad to hear that the Government agree with us about this matter. I am also glad to hear that this Amendment is unnecessary. However, having listened to what the noble Lord has had to say, I should have thought that between one proceeding taking place and another, there could well be a gap in the care of the child. I hope very much that the Government have looked at this matter and have made quite certain that the child could not just find
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itself back in the care of the natural mother who had already, as it were, given away the child, because this would be entirely against the principles of this Bill and entirely against what, I think, we would all regard as good social work practice. However, having received the assurance of the Government, I beg leave to withdraw this Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 30 [Restrictions on removal of child pending adoption]:
Lord WINTERBOTTOM Lord WINTERBOTTOM moved Amendment No. 29:
Page 19, line 30, at end insert ("or on arrest").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, with the leave of the House, may I move Amendments Nos. 29 and 30 together, and I do so with, may I say, some relief! The picture of life in the outside world which both the Houghton Committee and this Bill seems to paint is that of angelic children being mishandled and brutalised by demonic parents. I think that most Members of your Lordships' House have families and will probably agree with me that perhaps original sin is divided fairly equally between parent and child. The reason this Amendment has been put down by my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor, whose Amendments I am moving on his behalf, is that, as drafted, Clause 30 would prevent the removal of a child from applicants for an adoption order who had looked after the child for five years, except with the leave of the court or under authority conferred by any enactment, for example, a place of safety order.
There is the situation where original sin breaks out and the child commits an arrestable common law offence. This has been known to happen. For this reason, since the child is coming in contact with a court, the Amendment is so drafted that the exceptions which are already included in the Bill will have added to them the exception to cover a child who is arrested while committing an arrestable common law offence.
Lord WIGODER: My Lords, may I raise a point of very considerable triviality. If the Amendment is carried—and I certainly have no objection to it—the

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relevant wording from line 27 onwards will then read:
"… no person is entitled, against the will of the applicant, to remove the child from the applicant's custody except on arrest … ".
It appears to me to be not only ambiguous but "tribiguous", if there is such a word, as to whose arrest is being contemplated. The meaning and intention is perfectly clear, but grammatically I venture to think that some textual alteration will be necessary at a later stage.
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I have every sympathy with the point which has been made by the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, because when I first read this Amendment I assumed that it was the parent who was under arrest, not the child. However, I was assured that it is "little Willie", whose original sin broke out, who is the subject of this Amendment. Nevertheless, I shall bring the ambiguity or, rather, the lack of clarity to the notice of my noble and learned friend, and it may be that at a later stage we shall be able to produce something better.
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: I beg to move Amendment No. 30.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 39, after ("enactment") insert ("or on arrest").—(Lord Winterbottom.)
5.50 p.m.
Baroness YOUNG Baroness YOUNG moved Amendment No. 31:
Page 19, line 44, at end insert:
("( ) Where a local authority receive notice under subsection (2) of this section in respect of a child in the care of any other local authority or of a voluntary organisation, the local authority receiving the notice shall inform the authority or voluntary organisation in whose care the child is.").
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I do not wish to take up the time of the House in speaking at any length to this matter. I moved this Amendment in Committee and the Government said then that they would consider it. There was no Government Amendment to meet this point, so I put it down again. I hope that the Government will feel that it is only good social work practice that where a child is in the care of a voluntary organisation, the local authority shall
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notify that organisation when custody proceedings are to be instituted. I beg to move.
Lord WINTERBOTTOM: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness. As I indicated at an earlier point to, I think, the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, undertakings that were given during the Committee stage of this Bill will be implemented, although pressure of work—and I think noble Lords will agree that this Bill has thrown up a great deal of work—has prevented us from tabling the promised Amendments at the Report stage of the Bill. I can give the same undertaking to the noble Baroness, Lady Young, as I did to the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder. I believe I made the original undertaking on behalf of the Government and I can assure the noble Baroness that the undertaking still applies. I hope that she and other noble Lords who have previously spoken on this subject will be prepared to withdraw the Amendment on the basis of that undertaking. I cannot say whether the Amendment will be tabled on Third Reading or in another place, but we shall stand by the undertaking that I gave at an earlier stage of the Bill.
Baroness YOUNG: My Lords, by leave of the House, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom, for that assurance. It is of course disappointing not to have the Amendment tabled at this stage, or to have a guarantee that it will be tabled for Third Reading, but we are grateful for the assurance that the Government will redraft the Amendment and table it at another stage. With that assurance, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 33 [Custodianship orders]:
5.51 p.m.
Lord HYLTON Lord HYLTON moved Amendment No. 32:
Page 21, line 32, at end insert ("provided that the child has not been in the home of such a person as a foster child within the meaning of the Children Act 1958.").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, we have now come to the part of the Bill dealing with custody, and this is the first of several Amendments concerned with private fostering. I should like to submit—partly because this is not a matter

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which was discussed at Second Reading— that we are faced with a considerable problem in regard to this question of privately fostered children. I do not think the Government, or anyone, can deny that the problem exists, or can simply wish it away. We have to face the fact that these children are at risk of being deprived, not only emotionally but also financially, and we also have to face the fact that out of private fostering there will arise quite a number of "tug of love" cases. Professor Holman has shown in his research that some 90 per cent. of the privately fostered children are placed at under five years of age. That in itself is a serious matter. It is much more serious when we realise that no official inquiries at all are carried out before placement, and that there is very little subsequent visiting. We also have to bear in mind that local authorities are not able to arrange fostering without taking children into care, and in order to take them into care certain very strict conditions must be met.
So that is the problem with which we are faced, and I suggest that the solutions lie largely outside the scope of this Bill, in, for example, the field of housing, in the provision of much better day care than we have now, in the implementation of the Finer Committee's proposals for income and, above all, in the proper visiting of privately fostered children. In my view, this visiting should be at least as frequent as that given to children fostered by means of local authority arrangements.
Turning now to the Amendment itself, I withdrew an identical Amendment at Committee stage on receiving from the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, his standard assurance of consideration. The noble Lord said:
"We often see things that we can perhaps do something about".—[Official Report, 17 /2/75; col. 71.]
Since then I have heard no more from him. The purpose of this Amendment, as I have said before, is slightly to strengthen the rights and, more important, to allay the fears of natural parents who have placed, or will place, a child privately with foster parents. It will prevent the situation where unsatisfactory foster parents can, via private fostering, obtain an emotional hold over children which
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can then be used as a lever to obtain custody.
In resisting my previous Amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, said that the Government had some sympathy with the aim but did not share my anxiety. He went on to say that the Houghton Committee had considered these matters at length. In fact, fostering came only marginally within the terms of reference of the Houghton Committee and I believe that paragraph 106 of their Report supports my case rather than that of the Government. What, however, is of greater signficance is that the Houghton Committee had virtually no evidence at all before it on private fostering. The Committee reported in 1970 and the major evidence provided by Professor Holman's research was not available until 1973. The noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, further relied on Section 1 of the Guardianship of Minors Act 1971, but I am concerned with the situation before any case comes to court, before time limits have been reached, when, for example, natural parents remove their child or place it elsewhere because they are worried about future custody and want at all costs to maintain their link with their child. The noble Lord gave no answer on this point during the Committee stage. He said:
"One cannot stop up every hole".
I believe that this particular hole can and should be stopped up. I beg to move.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I do not think I can add very much to what I said at the Committee stage. I am sorry if the noble Lord feels that I have been discourteous in not communicating with him. I said that we would look at this matter again and we looked at it very carefully, but I am bound to say—and noble Lords are entitled to think otherwise—that there is no necessity for this Amendment. I concede that this is a matter of opinion. Where we could do something about it, or where we thought we could make some kind of recommendation, we have done so and I myself have written a large number of letters to noble Lords on other matters that have arisen during the Committee stage. But having looked again at this Amendment—and I know from what he has just said that the noble Lord does

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not accept the Houghton Committee's findings on this—and having considered it we felt that it is in some measure contrary to what the Houghton Committee has said.
When the noble Lord moved his Amendment on the third day of the Committee stage, on 17th February, he said that his real purpose was:
"… very slightly to strengthen the rights and to allay the fears of parents who have placed or will place a child privately with foster parents."—[Official Report; 17/2/75, col. 66).
We are not so sure that this in any way strengthens the rights. The noble Lord thought it likely that if the Bill were passed as at present drafted some foster parents would apply for a custodianship order straight away "in order to satisfy their own emotional needs", as he put it rather than consider the long-term interest of the child. This is a point of view. I do not know what evidence the noble Lord has for thinking that this is likely to happen. The noble Lord went on to say that the result would be to alarm the natural parents, and induce them to remove their child to another foster home—a child care practice which the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, regarded as "disastrous". If this were so, obviously it would be undesirable.
I do not want to repeat what I said on the last occasion. If one says that the Government fully appreciate the concern which lies behind the Amendment, that is true, but we feel there is no necessity to do anything about it. The dangers envisaged by the noble Lord led the Government to provide in Clause 33(3) that where a person other than a relative or a step-parent wishes to apply for a custodianship order, he must first, unless the child has had his home with him for at least three years, obtain the consent of a person having legal custody of the child, normally the parent. However, where the child has had his home with foster parents for more than three years, the Government remain of the view that the natural parents ought no longer to be able to veto the application by refusing their consent.
On the question of the natural parents being led to remove their children precipitately from foster parents, the Government agree that it would be most
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unfortunate if the provisions of the Bill were to have this effect. We consider that this is unlikely to arise, because the parents will, effectively, be able to veto applications by foster parents with whom a child has had his home for less than three years. Where a child has had his home with foster parents for more than three years, Clause 37(1) will apply, making it an offence for the natural parents to remove the child from the foster parents' custody except with the leave of the court, or in certain other circumstances.
I would ask the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, to look at this in the light of what I have said, and I know he will. But with great respect, it is not just that one wants to resist an Amendment because it is an Amendment. We want to do the right thing, but we feel that the situation is covered. I can only repeat what I said before, that we do not share the anxieties and fears of the noble Lord, Lord Hylton. Our decision is based on a good deal of consultation with various people and bodies. I am not suggesting for a moment that the noble Lord has not taken advice on this Amendment but we should have thought that it was quite unnecessary.
Lord HYLTON: My Lords, if I may speak again with the leave of the House, I am sorry that the Government cannot be more forthcoming. I do not think the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, has told us much more than he was able to tell us in Committee stage, and I should like to press this Amendment to see how your Lordships feel about it.
Baroness YOUNG: My Lords, before the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, presses his Amendment, I have been very concerned about the time limit imposed by this Bill. I said as much on Second Reading and in Committee. We have all felt very concerned about it. I feel very concerned, too, about the point raised by the noble Lord with regard to private foster children. The noble Lord has other Amendments on this matter on the Marshalled List. We all appreciate his sincerity and his concern for private fosterings.
I have thought a great deal about private fostering, and wonder whether it is wise at this stage, not simply for the reasons given by the noble Lord, Lord

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Wells-Pestell, but for quite practical reasons, to press this Amendment on private fostering, because it will involve an extension of service under this Bill. I should like to make it clear that I am not at all against this extension of service. In principle, this is something we ought to look at. It is only fair to say to the House that I feel it would be illogical on my part to say that I am very sceptical as to whether the Government have provided enough money to make the Bill work as it stands, and then to ask them to do something else as well. I do not think that would be something which I could square with my conscience. Although I think that the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, has raised a very real point, I should tell the House that I would not be prepared to support him in the Lobbies in this matter.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
6.6 p.m.
Lord BYERS Lord BYERS moved Amendment No. 33:
Page 27, line 19, at end insert—
("(10) For the avoidance of doubt, it is hereby declared that the provisions of section 1 of the Guardianship of Minors Act 1971 apply to applications made under this Part of this Act.")
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the position is that under Part II of the Bill, which relates to custodianship, there is at the moment no explicit reference to the standards by which applications are to be judged. It is clearly the intention of the Government, and it has been said many times to be the intention, that the custodianship section is covered by Section 1 of the Guardianship of Minors Act 1971, which provides that
"Where in any proceedings … the custody or upbringing of a minor… is in question, the court … shall regard the welfare of the minor as the first and paramount consideration …".
My Lords, this Amendment seeks to make that clear beyond any shadow of doubt—by a specific reference at the appropriate stage in the Bill—for three reasons: first, because it will be of assistance to the voluntary bodies and local authorities who will refer to this Bill, not to have to refer to a different Statute; secondly, because it is conceivable that some courts may find themselves so preoccupied with the different facts that arise in cases of this nature that they
1150
may overlook the necessity of referring to a different Act of Parliament to see what standard they should adopt; and thirdly, because on Committee stage I ventured to put to your Lordships the possibility that there was what seemed to me to be the plausible but not very attractive argument, which might arise in future, that the Guardianship of Minors Act did not apply unless it was specifically expressed to apply.
I can foresee the argument being put forward that although custodianship is very similar to custody, which is a fact in the Guardianship of Minors Act, nevertheless under this Bill custodianship might be said to be a new legal concept and therefore the 1971 Act did not apply. Although I do not think that argument very attractive, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, then addressed your Lordships indicating that in his view, it was an argument that might at some future date be put forward with some serious prospects of success. Perhaps that strengthens the need for this Amendment this afternoon. If there is a possibility of some legal technicality in the future which would do this Bill a disservice, it would clearly be desirable that we should obviate that possibility by making the matter clear beyond doubt. In these circumstances, I beg to move this Amendment.
Lord SANDYS: My Lords, we should like to support this Amendment. It is an occasion when one would be very well advised to quote my noble and learned friend Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, because his remarks in this regard, addressed to your Lordships on 17th February, have a special relevance. As we pass so rapidly from clause to clause, perhaps it may be for the convenience of your Lordships if I were allowed to quote his remarks on that occasion. He said:
"The opinion which I expressed on Second Reading, which had been fortified by one circular submission from a very responsible body which I quoted then … that this notion of custodianship is the introduction of a new and fifth wheel to the coach; that the multiplicity of legal conceptions here leads to the darkening of counsel, and not to the simplification of the law which most of us would like to see."—[Official Report, 17/2/75, col. 77.]
My noble friend had earlier referred, in the same column 77, to the fact that Her Majesty's Government chose to set

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aside no less than 10 recommendations of the Houghton Committee, serially numbered 20 to 29, dealing with guardianship. My noble friend Lady Young and I are particularly glad that the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, has reminded us of the relevance of the Guardianship of Minors Act 1971 in this regard; some of us, and I include myself in that category, were totally unaware of its application prior to his indication.
Turning to the Guardianship of Minors Act, Clause 1 of that Act was set out previously on the official record and deals with the principle on which questions relating to the custody, upbringing, et cetera, of minors are to be decided; a very important matter in which the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, had a special interest in her earlier Amendment. We wish to support this Amendment for the reasons we have suggested. We further commend it because I think your Lordships will agree that the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, showed great restraint and circumspection when he moved a very similar Amendment at Committee stage, and he has changed only the last four words of the Amendment now. It appears to us to commend itself, and so we support the Amendment.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, it is very difficult to resist the pleas of two sets of terrible twins. I use the word "terrible" with some affection, if I may say so. In view of what the noble Lords, Lord Wigoder and Lord Sandys, have said, perhaps the House will allow me to deal with this very briefly. Frankly, there is no issue of policy between us. The Government intend that the courts, when taking decisions under Part II of the Bill, should regard the welfare of the child as the first and paramount consideration; that is to say, that Section 1 of the Guardianship of Minors Act 1971 shall apply. The only question to be decided, therefore, is whether a "removal of doubt" provision is desirable. I am assured that it is not necessary, because a custodianship order is an order vesting legal custody, and any proceedings in which the custody or upbringing of the child is in question are covered by Section 1 of the 1971 Act. Since it is not necessary,
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it has been suggested to me that its inclusion might cast doubt on other applications, on the general principle that if the doubt has to be removed in one situation this might suggest that a doubt might be created in some other situation.
As against this, the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, contends that there might be some doubt in the minds of voluntary societies and individuals, and also that there might be some attempt to draw what he admitted to be rather far-fetched distinctions; I think I am right in saying that. I am in the hands of the House. We have one noble and learned Lord here this afternoon, and the Government would welcome advice on this point if the noble and learned Lord felt he had any to give. I think I must say that because it is, perhaps, a legal nicety. Whatever the advice may be on the acceptance or otherwise of this Amendment I can say only that the Government are willing to accept it—and having said that I shall sit down—unless any Member of your Lordships' House wants to put a view to the contrary.
6.15 p.m.
The Countess of LOUDOUN The Countess of LOUDOUN moved Amendment No. 34:
Page 22, line 19, at end insert—
("(10) In the case of a child who is in the care of a local authority or voluntary agency, and where parental rights are vested in the local authority, no application for custody may be made without the leave of that local authority.
(11) There shall be a right of appeal to a Magistrates' Court against a refusal by a local authority to give leave under subsection (10).
(12) In the case of children in the voluntary care of a local authority or of an approved child care agency, foster parents may not apply for custody if an objection is lodged by a parent.")
The noble Countess said: My Lords, this is the same Amendment that I withdrew at Committee stage when the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, expressed doubt as to the necessity for it. I put it down again because, on reflection, I feel that the Minister's reply, while dealing adequately with the case of children whose legal custody is vested in the local authority, did not satisfactorily answer the more vexed question of children who are in the voluntary care of a local authority.
It would seem that Clause 33(3)(c) gives the right to apply for a custodianship order to any person with whom the child has had his home for three years, regardless of whether the child was placed with that person by his own parents or by a local authority who had previously received him into care under Section 1 of the Children Act 1948. The implications of this are considerable. In good faith a parent could ask a local authority to receive the child into care on a voluntary basis under Section 1 of the Children Act 1948; the social worker may decide that the best placement for the child is with approved foster parents. After three years those foster parents without necessarily seeking the previous approval of the local authority could apply directly to a court for a custodianship order. Clearly, this would seriously undermine the relationship of trust between parent and social worker which is essential to successful working with children who need to be received into care for a greater or lesser period with full parental involvement.
Secondly, few social workers will place children in foster homes in future, if parents show their willingness to be involved, for fear of foster parents unilaterally seeking custodianship after three years, or adoption after five. I believe that new tug-of-love cases will be created by Clause 33(3)(c), in that parents and/or social workers will remove children from foster parents before the three year period is up in order to ensure that no unilateral application for custodianship is made. Only one body can effectively exercise responsibility for a child in care. That body must be the local authority in whose care the child is placed or committed. Only in these circumstances will people know where they stand, will it be possible to make long-term plans and can there be proper accountability. It is, therefore, essential that the consent of the local authority concerned is obtained before any application for custody is made for a child which is committed into care, or the consent of the parent of the child obtained if the child is in care voluntarily. These three subsections will go some way towards allaying anxiety on this point. I beg to move.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, as the noble Countess has said, this
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Amendment is drafted in the same terms as Amendment No. 41 which she moved on the third day of the Committee stage. In Committee, the noble Countess said, and she said again today, that the object of the Amendment was to prevent a situation arising in which the essential trust between parent and social worker was seriously undermined. The noble Baroness suggested that this might happen because Clause 33(3)(c) would enable relatives and foster parents to apply for a custodianship order in the absence of parental consent, a development which would not have been envisaged by the parents when they originally placed their child in care. The parents might thereby be induced to remove the child from his foster home before three years had passed in an effort to forestall any possible application not requiring parental consent. If I remember rightly, the noble Baroness, Lady Young, did not speak on that occasion, but I believe that she moved an Amendment with a similar purpose and raised much the same points as the noble Countess, Lady Loudoun. I undertook to write to the noble Baroness, Lady Young, about the possibility that the provisions of Part 2 of the Bill might encourage parents to remove their children precipitately from foster homes, and I did so. I may well have been remiss in not sending a copy of that letter to the noble Countess, Lady Loudoun. If I did not, I apologise, because obviously I should have done so. and perhaps it would have been helpful to her.
Where the child has had its home with foster parents for less than three years, the position of the natural parents is, in the Government's view, adequately safeguarded because the effect of Clause 33(3)(b) is to require a foster parent wishing to apply for a custodianship order, first to obtain the consent of a person having legal custody, normally a parent, but in the case where the local authority have parental rights, whether by a resolution under Section 2 of the Children's Act 1948, or otherwise, that authority. Where, however, the child has been with foster parents for a number of years (and this is set out at Clause 33(3)(c), but is capable of adjustment by Affirmative Order by virtue of Clause 33(7) the Government share the Houghton Committee's view, as expressed in Recommendation 35 of its

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Report, that the parents ought not to be able to veto the application.
The Government appreciate the concern which lies behind the Amendment. I know that I have said that on a number of occasions, but we do. We have looked carefully at all these matters since they were before your Lordships' House in Committee. We have spent a good deal of time, including weekends, studying these matters, but we believe the provisions of Clause 33(3)(c) if passed will not have the unfortunate consequences feared by movers of the Amendment because of the safeguards contained, first, in Section 1 of the Guardianship of Minors Act 1971, and, secondly, in Clause 36 of the Bill. These safeguards will ensure that the courts are in full possession of all the facts of the case, including the facts concerning the parents' wishes, and that they will exercise their powers with the child's welfare as their first and paramount consideration.
As regards the risk of precipitate removal by the parents, Clause 50 of the Bill will make it an offence, if a child is in the care of a local authority, for the parents to remove it from foster parents without the authority's consent, unless they have given the local authority at least 28 days' notice of their intention to do so. During this time the local authority could consider whether any action on their part was necessary—and by that I mean by assuming parental rights. Although we have given the matter great consideration, I recognise that noble Lords on the Opposition Front Bench have also spent many weeks on this and other matters. I do not claim that we are the only people who have been doing any thinking—let me make that clear—but our task would have been much easier if noble Lords and the noble Baroness on the Front Bench opposite had not been doing so much thinking! But of course we are grateful that they have done so. However, in reply to the noble Countess, we feel that the matter is already covered.
Baroness YOUNG: My Lords, before the noble Countess withdraws her Amendment, if she is so minded, I wish to thank the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, for the letter which he sent me setting out this point. I have re-read the report of the debate at Committee stage on this matter, and it seemed to
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me that there was one possibility that has not been covered. I appreciate that before a custody order is made under Clause 33, the person having the legal custody of the child must be consulted and that this will either be the parent or the local authority, where the local authority has Section 2 rights. But if we take the case of a child in care of a local authority, when the local authority is without Section 2 rights but perhaps has control under Section 1 of the 1948 Act, and the child is placed with foster parents and lives with them for three years and the foster parents decide to apply for a custody order, as I understand it one of the objects of the noble Countess's Amendment would be that the local authority would also be consulted before a custody order is made. As I understand the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, the parent would be consulted as having legal custody of the child, but of course there must have been a reason why the child was in the care of the local authority in the first place, even if the local authority did not have parental rights on it. Would he not think that it would be desirable for the local authority to be informed, at any rate, that the foster parents were seeking custody of the child as well as the fact that the parent, having legal custody of the child, should be informed also?
If I may illustrate this point further, one of the examples that I was concerned about over the question of time limits, was the case of the mentally ill mother who becomes ill, and the child, through no fault of the mother, comes into the care of the local authority. Because of good social work practice, the local authority does not put the child into a children's home but finds good foster parents. Suppose the mother is mentally ill for three years, or off and on for three years, and shows no signs of getting better, perhaps the foster parents, who by this time might have become attached to the child, if it was a small one, might seek a custody order. The natural mother and father would still have legal custody, but they might not be in a fit state to make a decision about it. Surely, in those circumstances, the local authority in whose care the child is (although I entirely accept that they have not Section 2 rights on it) ought to be consulted. I appreciate that we must read this against

1157
the background of the Amendment moved by the: noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, and accepted by the Government, that the interests of the child should be the paramount, and first, consideration. I have just looked at Clause 1 of the Guardianship of Minors Act, which makes the same point. Therefore one would assume that this situation would be so. But yet again I wonder whether this does not represent a loophole and that in these circumstances the local authority ought to be consulted before a decision is made.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, with the leave of the House, I do not think that what I am about to say will please or satisfy the noble Baroness, Lady Young, because she has expressed her concern on this matter before. The question of who should be notified of the proceedings will be done by rules. In point of fact, the local authority will be notified. That will be incorporated in rules. I know how the noble Baroness feels about these rules and that they will be long and involved. I think that this may well be, but one must bear in mind that they will be drawn up by a very competent body. I believe that the Chairman of the Rules Committee is the Lord Chief Justice. I think that I am right in saying that, and the other members of the Committee are very competent people. So, if we do not seem unduly perturbed at times by the need for Regulations and so on, it is because they will be in the hands of a very experienced body which will bring a great deal of expertise to the matter. The answer is, Yes, the local authority will be consulted but the actual procedure will be laid down by rules.
Baroness BACON: My Lords, I listened carefully to what the noble Baroness, Lady Young, had to say. She has her name down to the Amendment, but, so far as I could make out, she was supporting the proposal to insert a subsection (10) although she was speaking against subsection (12). Whereas the noble Countess, Lady Loudoun, was seeking by means of subsection (12) to protect the rights of the parents and to see that it was they who made the decision, I rather gather from the speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Young, that she was seeking to ensure that, in certain circumstances, it should not be the decision of the parents which should be the deciding
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factor, but that of the local authority, even though the child was in voluntary care. I just could not follow the noble Baroness on that point. I did at first think the Amendment was necessary but, having listened to my noble friend Lord Wells-Pestell, I can see that the point is covered and that this is probably unnecessary. However, as I said, I do not quite follow the argument of the noble Baroness, Lady Young, unless she is supporting only half of the Amendment.
Baroness YOUNG: My Lords, by leave of the House, could I say that a slight complication has arisen because, when I discussed the Amendment with the noble Countess, Lady Loudoun, I had not received the letter from the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell. In the intervening time, one of the points of dispute has been cleared up. I am sorry that the noble Countess, Lady Loudoun, did not have a copy of the letter, but the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, has explained this. I was trying to make it clear that I was glad that this point, at any rate, had been cleared up to my satisfaction, but that I did not feel that all the points raised by the Amendment had been met —and, indeed, I raised one myself, on quite a practical point. I am very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, has said that Rules will provide for this case, which the Bill does not make clear and which I regard as being a loophole. However, the noble Lord has not commented on subsection (11) of the Amendment and, perhaps, he would like to speak to that as well.
Lord BYERS: My Lords, we are tending to turn this Report stage into a Committee stage, if I may say so with the indulgence of your Lordships' House. If every Member asks for the leave of the House to say something else and the Minister is expected to reply, we are not having a proper Report stage according to the Rules of your Lordships' House.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 35 [Revocation and variation of orders]:
6.37 p.m.
Lord WIGODER Lord WIGODER moved Amendment No. 34A:
Page 23, line 39, at end insert:
("(7) Where an application is made under subsection (l)(a) or (b) the Court shall give

1159
notice to the local authority in whose area the child resides, within the seven days following the receipt of the application.
(8) On receipt of a notice given by the Court under subsection (7) the local authority shall investigate the matter and submit to the Court a report of their investigations.").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment has been designed to plug a gap. Our anxiety is that where a custodianship order is revoked under Clause 35, it may be revoked for a variety of reasons. For example, it may be revoked because of the death, the emigration or the break-up of the marriage of the custodian. In such a situation, the full legal rights over the child may revert to the natural parents, who may by that time—it may be a question of a lapse of some months or years—be in a situation where they are either unable or unwilling to exercise proper care or control over the child. Therefore, there appears to be a danger that the child might be left in a vacuum with nobody looking after it or supervising its welfare.
The purpose of the Amendment is to provide that, where there is an application for revocation of a custodianship order, the local authority shall be made a party to the application and shall submit a report, so that there will be the confident knowledge that the local authority will, if necessary, be able to take appropriate steps to safeguard the welfare of the child once the custodianship order is revoked.
I have no doubt that the wording of the Amendment is entirely unexceptionable because it follows the wording of the draftsman in Clause 36 subsections (1) and (2), where it is provided that on applications for a custodianship order the local authority shall similarly be made a party. The noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, will remember that this matter was discussed on Committee. He indicated, to quote his words, that:
"We were looking at this position at the present moment because it seems to us … that there is a real point here … If the noble Lord will allow us to continue looking at this point, it may well be that we shall come up with something similar to his requirement."—[Official Report, 17th February 1975, col. 95.]
I should be grateful for an indication from the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, whether it is still the view of the Government that there is a real point here and,
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if so, how it can best be dealt with. I beg to move.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord is perfectly right in saying that I undertook to look at the matter and also that I thought that this was a matter which we needed to look at. We have done so and we have come to the conclusion—rightly or wrongly—that there is no need for the matter to be amended. I would say that the Amendment ought to be resisted for the reasons which I gave earlier on, though I undertook to look at the matter and though, as I have said, we have done so. The Government agree that the courts need to be able to obtain relevant information about applications for revocation of a custodianship order for which purpose they need to be able to call for reports. It is proposed to achieve this by an Amendment providing for Section 6 of the Guardianship Act 1973 to apply to an application under Clause 35 of the present Bill in the same way as it applies to applications under Section 9 of the Guardianship of Minors Act 1971.
The form of the necessary Amendment is still under discussion with Parliamentary Counsel, but it is hoped to table an Amendment later in the Report stage or, if that is impossible, on Third Reading. However, whether it will meet what the noble and learned Lord has in mind, I cannot say at this stage. Section 6 of the Guardianship Act 1973 gives a court dealing with an application under Section 9 of the 1971 Act power to call for a report by a local authority or a probation officer on any matter appearing to the court to be relevant to the application. The power is discretionary. I do not know whether I can persuade the noble Lord to wait until our Amendment appears to see whether or not he likes it, and if he does not, then perhaps we can have a word about it before Third Reading.
Lord WIGODER: My Lords, I should like both to wait to see the wording of the Amendment, and indeed to reread in Hansard the noble Lord's remarks about the various sections of the various Statutes to which he referred. It appears that the Government are alive to the possible dangers of the situation that might

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develop, and in those circumstances I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 36 [Notice of application to be given to local authority]:
6.41 p.m.
Baroness YOUNG Baroness YOUNG moved Amendment No. 35:
Page 24, line 3, after ("resides") insert ("and, if the child is in the care of a local authority or voluntary organisation, to the authority or voluntary organisation in whose care the child is ").
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I hope that this is an Amendment which the Government will accept. I will not speak at length on the subject because my noble friends and I tabled it in Committee and at that stage the Government said they were prepared to consider it. I have put it down on Report because there was no Government Amendment to meet the point with which the Amendment is concerned. The point is, briefly, that in the case of a custodianship order being made, whereas the Bill proposes, and rightly so, that the local authority should be informed, the Amendment says that the voluntary organisation in whose care the child could well be should also be informed. I beg to move.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Young, said in Committee that her purpose was simply to ensure that if local authorities were to receive notice of an application for a custodianship order, as they would under Clause 36 of the Bill, so too ought any voluntary organisation in whose care the child was. We agree with this, but as I think I explained on a previous occasion —and if I did not, perhaps I may be permitted to do so now—we feel that this could be better achieved by use of the rule-making powers; and I am sure that that will become a dirty phrase before this Bill is through. Clause 36, at which the Amendment aims, has the rather different purpose of providing machinery by which an application for a custodian-ship order can be investigated by a local authority and reported on to the court, and therefore the Amendment would not, we suggest, be satisfactory in any case. But apart from this, it is more convenient to group together in the Rules the provisions about notice of applications to
1162
persons and bodies who may wish to intervene so as to reduce the risk of confusion. This is what the Government are proposing to do. I hope therefore that the noble Baroness will feel that this meets her wishes and is adequate in the circumstances.
Lord ELTON: My Lords, there is a further assurance or clarification which I think we need. Another effect of the Amendment as drafted would be to ensure that where a child is residing in the area of one authority but is the responsibility of another, this provision shall apply. In what the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, was saying I did not catch any reference to this, and so I am particularly sensitive because this was the circumstance in which the Maria Colwell case occurred; there were two local authorities concerned, one as it were geographically and the other administratively. It seems that the Amendment as worded would make sure that both local authorities concerned were kept in the picture. It is, of course, possible for the noble Lord to argue—and we shall doubtless accept his argument with the same reservations as we have others in that field—that this can also be achieved by the making of rules, but it would be agreeable if the noble Lord would say that that will be the object when the rules are made.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I understand that they will be notified and that that will also be contained in the rules.
Baroness YOUNG: My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, will appreciate, I am not very happy about leaving this to another set of rules which, of course, we cannot see at this stage. However, I do not feel that this is a matter which we need press to a Division at this stage.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I understand the noble Baroness's view, but I am informed that it is far easier to change things in rules than in an Act. This has been said a number of times during the passage of this Bill. There is some merit in having these matters in regulations and rules because, as I say, it is easier to change them. The noble Baroness need not feel unduly perturbed by that, and I think it is an advantage

1163
rather than a disadvantage to proceed in this way.
Baroness YOUNG: My Lords, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.47 p.m.
Lords WELLS-PESTELL Lords WELLS-PESTELL moved Amendment No. 36:
Page 24, line 11, after first ("the") insert ("wishes and feelings of the child having regard to his age and understanding and all other").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment would implement a promise I gave in Committee to reconsider the Government's attitude on the principle of Amendment No. 51 which was moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Young, on 17th February. On that occasion there was a consensus among noble Lords taking part in the debate that if it was relevant on a decision relating to adoption under Clause 2 to ascertain the wishes and feelings of the child and to give due consideration to them, then it should be equally relevant on an application for a custodianship order. The effect of the Amendment would be to include the child's wishes and feelings among the matters relevant to the operation of Section 1 of the Guardianship of Minors Act, 1971, which a local authority which receives notice of an application for a custodianship order is required under Clause 36 to investigate. After further consideration the Government had concluded that though Section 1 of the 1971 Act already covers this matter, no harm —possibly a great deal of good—will be done by introducing an express statement in the Bill.
I think there is probably nothing between us on this matter other than the fact that we include "and feelings". As noble Lords will know, Section 1 of the 1971 Act deals with the paramountcy test and I hope that, in the circumstances, the Government's Amendment standing in the name of my noble and learned friend will be accepted, and that the noble Baroness, Lady Young, and those who are also associated with this Amendment, will feel that "and feelings" is desirable and therefore that it will not be necessary for them to persist with their own. I beg to move.
Baroness YOUNG: My Lords, speaking for myself and my noble friends on this side, we very much appreciate what the Government have done in this Amendment. It is a better Amendment than the one we put down. It meets the points we made and, so far as I can see, it is in fact exactly in line with the terms of Clause 2 which we wanted to see written into the custody proceedings and which we had not got quite right in our Amendment. I am therefore very glad to welcome this Amendment and to express my appreciation of the Government's action in bringing it forward.
Clause 37 [Restriction on removal of child where applicant has provided home for three years]:
6.50 p.m.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL Lord WELLS-PESTELL moved Amendment No. 38:
Page 24, line 24, at end insert ("or on arrest").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Government Amendment is one of a series of technical Amendments which the Government think it necessary to make to the offence provisions of the Bill. As drafted, Clause 37 failed to protect a person arresting the child under Common Law powers from the offence created by subsection (1). This Amendment I understand cures this defect.
Lord ELTON: My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Wigoder, started the hare that I intended to hunt in Clause 19, I will hollo it away this time, and ask the noble Lord to make sure that when the matter is raised later we are certain about whom it is proposed to arrest. At the moment there are three people referred to in the clause to whom the word "arrest" might refer.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL Lord WELLS-PESTELL moved Amendment No. 39:
Page 24, line 32, at end insert ("(or the period which, by a previous order under this subsection, was substituted for that priod)").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment to bring subsection (3) of Clause 37 into line with other, similar provisions of the Bill; for example, Clause 33(7). As drafted, the subsection fails to envisage the possibility

1165
that the time limit could be amended on more than one occasion. I beg to move.
Clause 38 [Custodianship order on application for adoption or guardianship]:
6.57 p.m.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL Lord WELLS-PESTELL moved Amendment No. 40A:
Page 25, line 16, after ("shall") insert:
("(a) apply in relation to an application which by virtue of subsection (1) is treated as if made under section 33, as it applies in relation to an application made under section 9 of the Guardianship of Minors Act 1971, and
(b)").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, with your permission I will deal with Amendments Nos. 40A and 41 together. These are drafting Amendments. Clause 48(4) provides for Section 6 of the Guardianship Act 1971, to continue to apply to an application to which subsections (1) or (2) relate, but subsection (1) of Clause 38 relates to applications for adoption to which Section 6 of the 1971 Act does not apply. The Amendments put the matter right. I beg to move.
Lord ELTON: My Lords, two small points—they are really pleas—arise here, This is a drafting Amendment, and if one is not a lawyer the drafting is difficult. One is dealing with what I should call the Chinese egg principle: you look at a clause and see in it another clause referring to another Act; and you look at the other Act and you find another clause, and in that clause is a reference to another clause, and that refers to a third Act: and so on, ad infinitum. I do not have an alternative drafting to propose. I realise that the noble Lord cannot give an undertaking on this, but I am voicing a feeling which I believe is common to many of your Lordships who do not have legal training, when I say that if a simpler method were adopted to phrase Bills—and, in particular, Amendments to Amendments—and if a consolidating Bill were introduced at an earlier stage than is customary now, our work would be a good deal easier.
The other point occurred to me as I rose to my feet. The noble Lord also spoke to Amendment No. 41. It occurs to me there that in that Amendment we delete "(1) or" but leave "(2)" in,
1166
and so there will be no precedent "(1)" for the "(2)" to follow, and therefore possibly "or (2)" ought to have come out. I leave the problem with the noble Lord, but it seems to me that there is some sort of sequential break.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, with the leave of the House, if I may comment on the deletion of subsection (1), I fully share the noble Lord's concern. We must remember that these Amendments are drafted by Parliamentary draftsmen who, essentially, are lawyers. I have always felt that it has been in the interests of that profession to keep these matters confused, otherwise they would not be challenged! But I take the noble Lord's point, and if there is a way to simplify the matter I should, as a layman, like to do so. One of the difficulties one always faces in Bills is that sometimes they are couched in terms which ordinary people like ourselves cannot understand, but I am sure it is to the advantage of lawyers that they remain so.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I beg to move Amendment No. 41.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 17, leave out (" (1) or ")—(Lord Wells-Pestell.)
7.0 p.m.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL Lord WELLS-PESTELL moved Amendment No. 42:
After Clause 38 insert the following new clause
Disputes between joint custodians
".If two persons have a parental right or duty vested in them jointly by a custodianship order or by virtue of section 40(2) but cannot agree on its exercise or performance, either of them may apply to an authorised court, and the court may make such order regarding the exercise of the right of performance of the duty as it thinks fit."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment deals with disputes between joint custodians, and I wonder whether your Lordships would allow me to speak also to Amendments Nos. 62, 64 and 92A which can be taken together. The effect of these Amendments is to limit the scope of the new procedure provided in Clause 60(4) of the Bill for resolving disputes between people who have a parental right or duty jointly, to cases arising under Part II of the Bill. Clause 60(4) went too

1167
far in that it would have replaced Section 7 of the Guardianship of Minors Act 1971 (which relates to disputes between joint guardians) and would have limited the scope of that provision by imposing on it the new jurisdictional requirements contained in Clause 68(2). The second Amendment therefore deletes Clause 60(4).
The first Amendment replaces it by inserting a new clause after Clause 38, which provides that where two people have a parental right or duty jointly vested in them by a custodianship order and they disagree on its exercise or performance, either of them can apply to an authorised court for its direction. The clause applies not only to a case where the custodians are a married couple, and have the child's legal custody jointly, but also to that where a step-parent of the child has obtained a custodianship order and has the legal custody of the child jointly with one of the natural parents. The third Amendment to Clause 68 is designed to enable application to be made under the new clause not only to the court which made the custodianship order but also, if the court is a county court, to any other county court prescribed by rules under Section 102 of the County Courts Act 1959. The same effect can be achieved for magistrates' courts by use of the existing rule-making powers.
The fourth Amendment is consequential on the second, in that it restores Section 7 to the Guardianship of Minors Act. The repeal which it also effects of Section 16(2) of the 1971 Act—which provided for appeals from the county court under the 1971 Act to lie to the High Court—is made possible by the provision made in paragraph 23 of Schedule 3 to the Bill for such appeals and the appeals from the county court under the Bill to lie to the court of appeal. This would cover the four Amendments Nos. 42, 62, 64 and 92A, and I hope they are reasonably clear. I beg to move.
Lord ELTON: My Lords. I followed the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, through the labyrinth for a certain distance. However there is a difficulty at the back of my mind on this. I noticed that there is a change in the wording. Clause 60(4) on page 41, line 15, reads:
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"Where, in relation to a child who is in England or Wales, two or more persons have a parental right or duty jointly …".
Whereas the Amendment reads:
"If two persons have a parental right or duty vested in them jointly"—
and then the new words—
"by a custodianship order or by virtue of Section 40(2) …".
This is in the custodianship part of the Bill, whereas Part IV, Further Amendments of Law in England and Wales, presumably refers to all persons with parental rights jointly over a child howsoever they may have acquired those rights.
It seems to me therefore that the purpose of the Amendment is very much wider than it appeared to me the noble Lord suggested, since it restricts it to a class of person with parental rights of a particular kind arising from a particular occasion. It may be possible that the noble Lord made this clear further down the labyrinth than I pursued him; whether this was not a limitation of what one would have thought was almost a natural right of ordinary parents, or parents by right of something other than parenthood, to go to a court when they could not agree on how a child should be brought up. Perhaps when the noble Lord replies to this part of the debate he would be kind enough to make this clear.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords. I am much obliged to the noble Lord. My understanding of the situation is that the change in wording is to limit the provisions to the custodianship cases, leaving Section 7 of the 1971 Act to deal with other cases. If that is not clear to the noble Lord, I agree that one would need to look this up. If he is not satisfied or wishes to raise other matters and would be good enough to let me know, even by word of mouth, I shall certainly go into them and advise him.
Clause 46 [Restriction on removal of child where applicant has provided home for three years]:
7.7 p.m.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL Lord WELLS-PESTELL moved Amendment No. 43:
Page 28, line 29, leave out ("of some other lawful authority") and insert ("under

1169
authority conferred by any enactment or on arrest,").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment. I hope, clarifies the circumstances in which a child may be removed legitimately from a home where this would otherwise be debarred under the clause as it stands. This is exactly parallel with Amendments 38 and 39 to Clause 37 as already covered. In Scotland there could be grounds for removal under a variety of enactments including provisions in the Social Work (Scotland) Act of 1968 relating to children in need of removal to a place of safety for their own immediate protection, or where a supervision requirement made by a children's hearing under the Act requires that the child should be placed in a children's home under residential supervision. It is also necessary to cover the situation where a person exercises his right to carry out an arrest without a warrant under the Common Law as in England and Wales. I do not think I can say anything more than that. I beg to move.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL Lord WELLS-PESTELL moved Amendment No. 44:
Page 28, line 44, at end insert ("(or for the period which, by a previous order under this subsection, was substituted for that period)").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment has the same effect for Scotland as that relating to Clause 37(3). The intention is that, when the period of three years' possession of a child has been modified by order of the Secretary of State, a further order or orders may be made for the same purpose. I beg to move.
Clause 50 [Restriction on removal of child from care]:
Lord WELLS-PESTELL Lord WELLS-PESTELL moved Amendment No. 45:
Page 30, line 27, after ("of") insert ("28 days or of").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, with your permission, with this Amendment I should like to move Amendment No. 61. The purpose of Amendment No. 45 is to extend the power of the Secretary of State in the proposed Section 1 of the Children Act 1948 introduced by Clause
1170
50 by enabling him by Affirmative Order to vary the period of "not less than 28 days" notice of intention which a parent or guardian would be required to give a local authority before removing from care a child who has been in the local authority's care throughout the preceeding 12 months.
As now drafted the clause enables the Secretary of State by Affirmative Order to vary the period of 12 months. The Amendment proposes that this power should be extended to cover the period of "28 days", thus bringing the power of the Secretary of State with regard to this time limit into line with that covering other provisions in the Bill which involve time limits. Clauses 30, 37, 42, 51, and 58 involve time limits. Amendment 61, which is one of the two Amendments now before your Lordships, applies to Scotland. I beg to move.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER (Lord Amulree): My Lords, before calling the next Amendment I should acquaint your Lordships that the figure for the voting, "Not-Content", in the Division earlier this afternoon, should have been 43.
7.10 p.m.
Baroness YOUNG Baroness YOUNG moved Amendment No. 46:
Page 30, line 29, at end insert:
("(3C) Notwithstanding that children in the care of voluntary organisations arc not in care under section 1 of this Act. which relates only to children in the care of local authorities, the parent or guardian of the child in the care of a voluntary organisation must give not less than 28 days notice to the voluntary organisation of his intention to withdraw his child from their care."")
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, my noble friends and I have put this Amendment down again for two reasons. The first is that the noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom, who replied to it at Committee stage said that he would look at this matter. As we did not see an Amendment down for the Report stage, we put our Amendment down again. The principal reason why we put down this Amendment in Committee was the belief that as Clause 51 is concerned with extending the reasons why a local authority can assume parental rights over a child, in those cases in which a child was in the care of a voluntary society and the local authority was not prepared to

1171
assume parental rights, the voluntary society should be able to do so. It is a fact that whereas some local authorities interpret Section 2 of the 1948 Act generously, others do not. The consequence is that the practice in different parts of the country varies.
In some places where the child is in the care of a voluntary society, it may be that the local authority would assume parental rights over the child if the child had been in the care of the voluntary society for three years. But it cannot be said that this would be so in every case; at least I do not think that is what the clause means. Therefore, the first purpose of putting down this Amendment is to clarify this point: that the local authority should be able to apply for parental rights.
My Lords, I must apologise. I have misread this Amendment. I should have been speaking to Amendment No. 46 which applies to the 28 days order. I was reading Amendment No. 49. I hope very much that the Government will accept Amendment No. 46, which is designed simply to require parents to give 28 days' notice to a voluntary society if they wish to withdraw a child. I believe the Government have said that they will accept this Amendment. That is all I need to say and without further taking up the time of the House, I beg to move.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I have great sympathy with the noble Baroness. Lady Young. I was doing exactly the same thing, as she will recall, last week. It becomes rather difficult sometimes to keep pace. I wish in some respects that I could go some way to meet the noble Baroness; but we have looked at this Amendment very carefully and it is the same as the one we discussed in Committee on 17th February. Since then, and I know the noble Baroness will take my word for it, we have given a good deal of consideration to this and to a number of others. In fact, we seem to have been doing nothing but considering not only the Children Bill but the kind of thing which stems from the discussions we have had since it was introduced.
The effect of this Amendment would be to place the same restriction on removal of a child from the care of a voluntary organisation as will apply under
1172
the proposed new subsection (3A)(b) of Section 1 of the Children Act 1948 where a child is in the care of a local authority. But the Amendment would apply this restriction without the "time limit" in subsection (3A)(b), that the child must have been in the care of the local authority throughout the preceding 12 months.
I regret that the Government still feel unable to accept this Amendment, on the grounds that, unlike local authorities, voluntary organisations are not subject to statutory control over the circumstances in which they may receive children into care, and that it would therefore be inappropriate to introduce a statutory restriction governing removal. Voluntary organisations are at liberty to specify whatever conditions they think fit when agreeing to accept a child into their care; and probably no one knows this more than the noble Baroness. They can therefore at present stipulate, where they consider it appropriate to do so, that parents should give not less than 28 days' notice of removal of the child. I appreciate of course that, in the absence of a statutory power, they would, in practice, be unable to enforce this condition. As I have said, the restriction proposed by the noble Baroness in respect of children in the care of voluntary organisations would bite immediately and is thus much more restrictive than that which the Bill proposes to place on the removal of children in the care of local authorities.
The conditions governing the circumstances in which a child may be received into the care of a local authority are laid down in the Statute (Section 1 of the Children Act 1948) and, unlike voluntary organisations, local authorities are not free to impose on parents conditions which are not covered by the Statute. It is only by amending the Statute that the parents of a child can be required to give the local authority notice of intention to withdraw the child as envisaged in Clause 50.
As I have explained, voluntary organisations are free to make the same conditions if they wish. The only advantage to be gained from placing the existing non-statutory relationship between voluntary organisations and parents on a statutory footing, as envisaged by the Amendment, would be to place parents under the threat that if they removed

1173
their child from care without giving the required period of notice, the voluntary organisations could invoke the penalties set out. in Section 3(8) of the Children Act 1948; that is, on summary conviction a fine not exceeding £20 or imprisonment for up to two months or both. But these penalties could be imposed only by a court of law and it would therefore be necessary for the voluntary organisation to institute proceedings against the parents; and, even then, only after the child had been removed from care. The Amendment would therefore fail to achieve its primary purpose which. I gather, is to protect the child. Furthermore, the threat of proceedings in the courts might be a factor which would deter other parents from placing their child in the voluntary organisation's care.
I hope that in the light of this explanation the noble Baroness will be willing to seek leave to withdraw it; and that those voluntarily organisations that have made representations to the noble Baroness on this matter will consider again whether statutory controls of these kinds are really what they want—I should have thought not—or will in practice hamper their activities without improving the protection we all desire for the child that is in need of it.
Lord ELTON: My Lords, this is a somewhat difficult field; but I am not certain that those on this side of the House are entirely satisfied with what the noble Lord has said—although we accept, of course, that it was said with good intentions. In part, he said that parents might be deterred from placing children with voluntary associations on the ground (hat they might, if they wished to take the child back, find themselves liable to legal proceedings had they not given sufficient notice. I do not see that this puts them at a disadvantage in putting their child into a voluntary organisation as against putting it into care in a local authority organisation, because I should have thought that exactly the same situation appertained.
Of course, one's whole approach to the noble Lord's treatment of this question must be conditioned by the Government's attitude, not yet absolutely manifest, to the question of inspection and approval and whether that is going to march pari passu in voluntary and in
1174
local authority organisations, and the extent to which the Minister will oversee the rules. The noble Lord said that the voluntary organisations were at liberty to make a rule, or a condition of accepting a child, that a minimum of 28 days' notice should be given before the child was claimed back. Would the Minister give his approval to a voluntary organisation which did not make such provision? Then again, if he did, is he implying that once a voluntary organisation had made such a provision, and the Minister had given his authorisation to its continuance, if parents none the less in a fortnight instead of a month turned up to ask for little Willie back—and indeed took little Willie from his pram in the garden at the back of the voluntary organisation's building, as one sometimes hears happens—they would not be subject to prosecution in the courts?
I find a certain conflict in the arguments advanced which seem to cancel each other out. I trust that my noble friend Lady Young will in her reply to this debate—as she is moving the Amendment she is entitled to speak twice—be able to bring these arguments together. But, as I see them at the moment, the case against this Amendment has not been fully made out.
7.22 p.m.
Baroness YOUNG: My Lords, I have re-read carefully what the noble Lord, Lord Winterbottom, said on this matter at the Committee stage, and have listened carefully to what the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, has said on Report. I would not have put down this Amendment at all had I not had strong representations from the voluntary societies acting in unity in this connection. They all wish to have this same principle applied to children in their care, as applies to children in the care of a local authority. I think the reason for it is that the type of child now in the care of a voluntary organisation may be very different from the child in care, say, when Dr. Barnado's Home was founded. Clearly, a great many children would now go into the care of a local authority, and rightly so. What I think voluntary associations are concerned about is the feckless parent, who has left a child in the care of a voluntary society since babyhood. The child has not been adopted; it has not come under the custody provisions: it is

1175
simply in the care of the voluntary society perhaps until it is old enough to earn money. Then the parent arrives at the front door and says, "I will take Willie home now, this afternoon", and is allowed to do so.
This is obviously an undersirable practice. There may be no reason at all why the child should not go back to his natural parents, because we all agree that the natural home is the right place for a child to be. But any child needs some kind of preparation and warning of this, and quite rightly, in my opinion, the Government have said in Clause 50(3)(a) that a parent must give to a local authority 28 days' notice of intention to withdraw the child. This is obviously to enable the local authority to prepare the child for his return home and to make sure that the circumstances at home are
Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment agreed to accordingly.
Lord STRABOLGI: My Lords, I beg to move that further consideration on Report be now adjourned.
suitable for him to go to. We are entirely in agreement with this. What I still do not fully understand is why this cannot apply to the voluntary society if the voluntary societies so wish it. It may well be that, as a result of asking for this, the voluntary societies will find themselves subject to further statutory control. But I am not sure that that, in itself, is a reason for objecting to this Amendment, which seems to me to be entirely in line with good child care practice and in the best interests of the child. I therefore feel as matters stand that I cannot withdraw this Amendment and wish to press it to a Division.
7.26 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said Amendment (No. 46) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided Contents, 42; Not-Contents, 26.

CONTENTS

Amulree, L.

Gowrie, E.

Monck, V.

Auckland, L.

Gridley, L.

Newall, L.

Bridgeman, V.

Hanworth, V.

Orr-Ewing, L.

Campbell of Croy, L.

Harvey of Tasburgh, L.

Redesdale, L.

Cathcart, E.

Hawke, L.

Sandys, L.

Colville of Culross, V.

Henley, L.

Seear, B.

Cowley, E.

Hornsby-Smith, B.

Strange, L.

de Clifford, L.

Hunt of Fawley, L.

Swinton, E.

Denbigh, E.

Hylton, L.

Vickers, B.

Denham, L. [Teller.]

Killearn, L.

Vivian, L.

Eccles, V.

Kinnoull, E.

Wade, L.

Elliot of Harwood, B.

Lyell, L.

Ward of North Tyneside, B.

Elton, L. [Teller.]

Macleod of Borve, B.

Wigoder, L.

Ferrers, E.

Masham of Ilton, B.

Young, B.

NOT-CONTENTS

Arwyn, L.

Henderson, L.

Shackleton, L.

Bacon. B.

Hoy, L.

Slater, L.

Bernstein, L.

Jacques, L. [Teller.]

Stedman, B.

Beswick, L.

Lee of Newton, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Brockway, L.

Maelor, L.

Taylor of Mansfield, L.

Castle, L.

Melchett. L. [Teller.]

Wells-Pestell, L.

Champion, L.

Milner of Leeds, L.

White, B.

Davies of Leek, L.

Noel-Buxton, L.

Wynne-Jones, L.

Harris of Greenwich, L.

Segal, L.

Moved accordingly and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

CALF SUBSIDIES (UNITED KINGDOM) (VARIATION) SCHEME 1975
7.34 p.m.
The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of INDUSTRY (Lord Beswick)The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of INDUSTRY (Lord Beswick) rose to move, That the Draft Calf Subsidies (United Kingdom) (Variation) Scheme 1975, laid before the House on 19th February, be approved. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the effect of this

1177
Variation Scheme is to remove the £10 increase in the calf subsidy granted last July as a temporary measure. I ought also to say that the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments have considered the draft but do not wish to draw the attention of the House to it. It has been passed without comment.
May I briefly remind your Lordships of the circumstances in which the £10 was added. The increase was agreed by the EEC Council of Ministers in March of last year. At that time it was decided that the United Kingdom guide price for beef should be increased to a lesser extent than in other member States, and that the United Kingdom need not apply intervention. The increase in the calf subsidy was designed to compensate United Kingdom producers for the effect of these decisions. In the light of the new arrangements for beef which I outlined in this House on 17th February, the Government have reviewed the need to maintain the £10 increase in the calf subsidy. As from today, the variable premium is in operation, and producers will now be assured of average returns of between £22 and £23 per live cwt. for finished animals, and these are bound to be reflected in better prices for calves and store animals. Indeed, we have already seen a substantial improvement in these prices following the measures taken by the Government last November to give beef producers assured returns somewhat lower than those that will now apply. We are therefore satisfied that the special circumstances which existed when the additional calf subsidy was introduced no longer apply. Accordingly, this Variation Scheme provides for the removal of the £10 and for a return to the former levels of calf subsidy.
I should stress that it is only calves born after this Scheme comes into operation which will be affected. All calves born up to the day when the Scheme comes into operation will, provided they meet the conditions of eligibility, continue to enjoy the higher rates. For carcases—Stage B—there will be a similar reduction in subsidy rates but the proposed Variation Scheme provides for this to come into effect on 1st April 1976. This will mean that the increased rates will have been payable in respect of Stage A and Stage B for a period of roughly 16 months.
Finally, three minor amendments are proposed in respect of provisions which have become obsolete or anomalous. The requirement that an eligible carcase at Stage B must be sold is to be deleted. This requirement derives from the old Fatstock Guarantee Scheme but has no parallel in the current beef premium arrangements or when a calf is certified live. Furthermore, it has been found to be unenforceable. Its removal will be generally welcomed and should not lead to any abuse of public funds. An amendment is also proposed to prevent the owner of a brucellosis or tuberculosis reactor or contact obtaining calf subsidy in addition to compensation when he opts to have such an animal slaughtered by the Ministry under animal health regulations. The subsidy potential of the animal is, I am assured, taken into account when compensation is assessed and subsidy ought not to be paid in addition.
The final amendment concerns the requirement that in Northern Ireland all calves, including pedigree calves, must be dehorned in order to qualify for subsidy. This has been strongly criticised by the Northern Ireland Breed Societies, particularly since last July when live bulls first became eligible for subsidy. The Department of Agriculture for Northern Ireland have introduced certain exemptions into their own dehorning legislation, and the Government propose to introduce the same exemptions covering pedigree bulls and pedigree females of certain breeds into the Calf Subsidy Scheme. The estimated savings resulting from the removal of the £10 would be £34 million in a full year. Even if all calves were now to receive the lower rate of subsidy, the effect on producers should be more than offset by the firmer prices for calves and improved returns from milk as a result of the measures recently taken by the Government. But as I have explained, the removal of the £10 will be a gradual process, and in 1975–76 the total payment of calf subsidy is expected to drop by less than £4 million. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Draft Calf Subsidies (United Kingdom) (Variation) Scheme 1975, laid before the House on 19th February, be approved.—(Lord Beswick.)
7.40 p.m.
Earl FERRERS: My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord

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Beswick, for having introduced this order and for having explained it. He said that the Committee on Statutory Instruments made no comment upon the order, but I think he will forgive me if I take the opportunity of making a comment upon it, because I do not think he would expect it to go by without any comment.
I am bound to say that up to a point I am sad to see this calf subsidy reduced, but I should explain that I am not one who is greatly in favour of large subsidies. I have always felt that so far as possible the right way for agriculture to proceed is to get the proper returns from the market. But this subsidy must be seen as part of Her Majesty's Government's beef policy, and of course it was increased last year by £10 when the Minister decided to opt out of intervention and, for the first time in 25 years, the floor of the beef market was removed and as a sop to the industry the calf price was increased by £10. The result of that decision by the Minister to opt out of intervention, as we know, was utter disaster; there was complete loss of confidence and there were massive calf slaughterings. The Minister has now had second thoughts and after great pressure he has put back some floor into the market. So off comes the subsidy.
I do not want to refer in detail tonight to the support arrangements agreed for beef, but I think they will prove to be inadequate and not as good as at first sight was anticipated. They give no longterm stability, because the Exchequer liability is so great that guaranteed prices can be announced only four weeks in advance. I rather wonder what has happened to make the Government think, if the increased subsidy was so necessary last year, that it is unnecessary now. The noble Lord must know that there is great uncertainty in the beef industry; there is no money in it. I was talking to somebody the other day who said that last year he sold 350 beef cattle and lost £54 on each animal. The beef breeding herd was down in December as compared with a year ago; the slaughterings of calves are up by 300 per cent. in the year since January 1974. So those figures are not very helpful and they do not show any huge change-round in confidence. We know that hill farmers have suffered disastrously over the last 12
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months and the removal of this subsidy will come as another blow to them. But of course 70 per cent. of the beef comes from the dairy industry so the dairy industry will also be affected by this scheme.
Perhaps the Government think that the dairy industry is in a good enough position to be able to withstand it. But is it? There is already a shortage of milk supply and yet the dairy herd is down 5 per cent. in a year, which will only make the position even worse. Although there is a shortage of milk the Government continue to subsidise liquid milk and therefore stimulate the demands for liquid milk. This means that less milk goes into butter and cheese manufacture and there is now a hugh shortage in this area, too. Yet we subsidise butter and cheese and therefore stimulate that demand, and then butter and cheese have to be imported to fulfil the demand which affects our balance of payments. All this comes about because there is a shortage of milk. Yet the award of the Review recently announced appeared to be 5 pence a gallon. Of course in reality the net increase is only 0·8 pence per gallon, because of the increase of 4·2 pence which was for only a short period of time; it was operative from last autumn and is about to come to an end. So the increase in price of 0·8 pence per gallon has to take account of all the inflation and all the increases in cost over the next 12 months.
All this shows a depressed state for the milk industry, from the points of view of production, of anticipated return and of inflation. Yet the reduction of this subsidy will have a material effect on that industry. So my criticism of this scheme is not just that the Government are reducing the subsidy; my criticism is of a far more general nature and is that the Government's general political strategy has been and is such that the areas of agriculture which are affected by this subsidy are so depressed that they are not in a position to withstand yet further diminution of their income.
There is one question which I should like to ask the noble Lord, Lord Beswick. I understand that when the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food raised the subsidy last year by £10, he merely informed the EEC that he was going to do so. As I understand the position, he is not debarred from using the subsidy

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and therefore, presumably, he does not have to get approval for the level at which he intends to operate it. The subsidy is now reduced by £10. Is that because the European Community insisted, as part of the package on beef, that the subsidy should be reduced? I hope not, because if the level of subsidy is a domestic issue over which the Minister has only to in-inform the EEC, I hope that he has not succumbed to pressure from the Community to lower it. If the EEC did not request the subsidy to be lowered as part of the package, I assume that the Minister did it of his own volition and I ask the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, why? What makes the Minister consider that the circumstances have changed so dramatically in the last 12 months that a subsidy which it was then considered essential to introduce is now superfluous and unnecessary?
7.48 p.m.
Lord HOY: My Lords, I should like to intervene for one or two minutes on this subject. I am a little surprised at the argument presented by the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, tonight. In fact, he asked whether the Minister had permission to increase the subsidy by £10, and whether he required permission to lower it. I cannot understand why, if he was allowed to put it up by £10, he would have to go back to the EEC to reduce the subsidy by £10. That seemed to be such a complete non sequitur that I was surprised the noble Earl asked it.
I do not underestimate the question of milk costs. It is all right for people to talk about 0·8 pence per gallon, but I should like to hear from my noble friend what this represents in actual figures, because I remember that when dealing with this subject a penny on a gallon represented millions of pounds. The noble Earl is bound to be aware that we are not dealing with a simple little figure like this; we are dealing with a considerable amount of money which has to be met cither by Government subsidy or by the consumer. The consumer might have to pay it, and I was never carried away with the idea, if we were changing milk prices, that we were making only very small changes. I hesitate to try to recollect, but I believe that at that time a penny was the equivalent of £2½ million to £3 million—not less than that sum. So when we speak about these figures,
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we are talking about substantial sums of money.
Overall I am not saying that this is much too much with regard to farming. That is not my argument at all. But to seek to convey, as did the noble Earl tonight, that that sum meant very little is misleading, because it can represent a considerable amount of money. I am not saying that the figure given by my noble friend tonight is a tremendous award for industry, but with a guaranteed price of £22 or £23, it is not all that infinitesimal. Noble Lords opposite are arguing that the Government have to give a fair return, not only to the consumer, but to the producer. All right: if the producer is to get a fair return, it has to be made in two ways; either the Government have to put in a subvention, or the consumer has to pay.
The noble Earl's Party has always argued that at the end of the day the end price must meet the increased cost. The noble Earl would not dispute that. His Party have always argued that the end price has to be met, so if he says that the Government should restrict this, then the end price must be met by the consumer and prices must go up. If the noble Earl is saying this, I would much rather that he would say it explicitly and clearly, so that we can all understand that his Party are saying that the end price must be met by the consumer.
My Lords, in conclusion, I should like to know what the increase in milk price means in the totality of the figure that has to be met at the end of the year. If the noble Earl thinks this return is not good enough for the farmer—and he is entitled to think so—then he ought to get up and say what he thinks, what the alternative ought to be, and where the price ought to be met. Should it be met by the Government, or by the consumer? Unless the noble Earl fares up to that position, he really has no right to come along and say to the Government, "You ought to do something else about price". Unless he is prepared to do that, he ought to say, "I agree from my side of the House that we think the price ought: to go up. It ought not to be met by the Government, but should go up in the retail price to the consumer." Outside these spheres, there is no alternative to this argument. My

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Lords, I hope my noble friend will be able to tell me what the increased price of milk will mean to the consumer. I am willing to face up to it. At least let us understand what these prices mean so far as the public is concerned.
7.53 p.m.
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, I am very grateful for what my noble friend has said. He is quite right that 5p per gallon on milk is not an insignificant return in total. It will mean something like £146 million more going to the dairy farmer, so that that is not an insignificant amount.
Earl FERRERS: My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord will agree, though, that it is not 5p more going to the dairy farmer because, in fact 4·2p a gallon is already being received. Starting from now, this addition is only 0·8p.
Lord HOY: Point seven.
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, this is an addition, and there will be an increase in the quantity on which the increased price will be paid. With respect, I think the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, is exaggerating the situation left as a result of the improvements we were able to announce recently. Although the figure for slaughterings given by the noble Earl sounds very dramatic, it is a figure which he has compared with an exceptional period, of last year and the year before. If one goes back a few years—and I have the list here—the number of slaughterings is about the same. As for the milk shortage, I gather there is about a 2 per cent. decrease in milk supply at the present time, and this is expected to improve.
If one takes what is happening to store cattle prices since we made recent changes, one can see that confidence is returning and that prices are very considerably up on what they were in November and October of last year. I have here the beef/dairy cross figures. For 18-month old steers they are £131 average for January and £137 average for February, as against £108 and £109 in the autumn of last year. So there has been an improvement. I do not think we should talk ourselves into the feeling that things are as bad as the noble Earl is suggesting.
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So far as the situation with the EEC is concerned, the fact is that there was what is known as a Regulation of the Commission, under which we paid the calf subsidy increase, dated 18th April 1974. That was not just a question of telling them; it was a derogation which we were given by them. Very graciously, they enabled us to pay more out of our own kitty to the farmer. This Regulation extended to the 31st December. We had asked that this should be allowed, because we were not going into intervention in the same way as the other continental countries. It was expected that we should be able to bring the variable premiums into effect by the beginning of this year. That was not possible; so we notified the Commission that for this brief period, this interim period, we should maintain the increased calf subsidy. That remains the position until this Order comes into effect.
My Lords, in view of the noble Earl's rather alarmist picture, I would also say again that although the order will come into effect within a matter of days or weeks—I am not absolutely certain which it is—the payment of the subsidy does not immediately end. The noble Earl will remember that I gave the figures in my opening speech. Whereas over a year, if all subsidies were to be abruptly stopped, it would make a difference of some £34 million, it is expected in the year 1975/76 that there will be a reduction of only £4 million. This really does not justify the sort of language or the vigour with which the noble Earl voiced his apprehensions.
May I make one final remark to the noble Earl? If he is going to place all his reliance on the market and make a case for the market, I do not think he should go on to say that we were in error in no applying intervention, that wasteful system. If one is talking about a market, one is talking about a free market in a situation in which the Government are expected to go in and buy at a certain price in order to store the stuff until it is given at a cheaper price to the Russians, or some such thing. That is not my conception of the market. I doubt whether very many farmers would like the free market system. My impression is that most farmers prefer the old deficiency payment system to the intervention system. We are getting somewhat

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nearer that, although there is now the floor price which the intervention price will provide. There is a floor and there is also the variable premium. There will be a reasonable return per live cwt. In that situation, it is not unreasonable to go back to the former level of calf subsidy. On that basis, I hope the House will agree to this Order.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

QUEEN'S ROAD BRIGHTON BURIAL GROUND BILL [H.L.]
Examiners' Certificate that the further Standing Orders applicable have been complied with: Ordered to lie on the Table. Bill committed to the Committee on Unopposed Bills.
  UDR AND MOTOR MILEAGE ALLOWANCE
  UDR AND MOTOR MILEAGE ALLOWANCE