Sitting of 19 February 1975

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS

    Cyprus
    Mr. Michael Marshallasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment he has been able to make of the position of British citizens resident in the Turkish occupied part of Cyprus, following the visit to Cyprus of Mr. Peter Scott.
    The Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Roy Hattersley): They have suffered hardship and are now experiencing some inconveniences. Some foods are scarce in Kyrenia but British residents can shop in Nicosia. Except in the Varosha district of Famagusta, the Turkish Cypriot authorities are encouraging British residents to return to their homes—which is the best way of looking after their property.
    Mr. Marshall: Will the Minister of State accept the political realities of the situation, as must the many British residents in the Turkish sector, especially in the taking out of identity cards, registration cards, and so on? In those circumstances, will he reconsider the view which he expressed in his letter of 16th January 1974 and open an office of the British High Commission in the Turkish sector to deal with these and other matters? Finally, will he take this opportunity of urging the British residents to make themselves known to the British High Commission so that their whereabouts can readily be ascertained in the event of further difficulties?
    Mr. Hattersley: We have done our best to establish close relations with the British residents who live in the northern area of Cyprus. The realities of the situation are not simply political. I cannot think of—nor can anyone suggest to me—any positive advantages in establishing such an office. Although there would appear to be an advantage in that course, on examination no advantage has been found.
    Mr. Hurd: Will the Minister say a little more about the way in which the High Commission makes contact with the Turkish military authorities, since several hon. Members are still receiving reports of looting, irregular requisitioning, and so on? What are the means of communication?
    Mr. Hattersley: There are a variety of means of communication. The High Commission is in touch with the de facto authorities. We have made constant representations to the Turkish Government in Ankara and to the Turkish Ambassador in London. On Friday I gave an assurance to the House that further representations were being made on that day.
    Mr. Laneasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a further statement on the latest developments in Cyprus.
    The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. James Callaghan): The House will be aware that a meeting of the Security Council to discuss Cyprus is likely to take place. It may begin later today. Her Majesty's Government hope that the meeting will help stabilise the situation and enable the intercommunal talks to resume.
    Mr. Lane: In view of the damage being done to NATO, the many interests involved, and the anxieties among the Cypriot community in London, is not it time the right hon. Gentleman treated this crisis as his highest priority and pulled out every stop of British diplomacy in the search for a constitutional settlement? How else does the right hon. Gentleman consider that Her Majesty's Government should interpret their rôle as a guarantor Power?
    Mr. Callaghan: This is a very serious matter, in which we are involved in constant discussions with the principal parties concerned. I shall be happy to receive any specific suggestions from the hon. Gentleman or anyone else as to what should be done further.
    Mr. Atkinson: Does my right hon. Friend agree that we have now reached the stage where the whole future of the United Nations is in balance, especially as a member nation—Turkey—has totally ignored Resolution 3212, which presumably is the basis of this afternoon's discussion in the Security Council? Does not the question now arise whether Britain should consider the possibility of the expulsion of Turkey from the United Nations, failing her acceptance of complete adherence to that United Nations Resolution? If not, it is obvious that sanctions will have to be applied if the United Nations is to be taken seriously in the future.
    Mr. Callaghan: I do not believe that the future of the United Nations is in balance on this issue. It has suffered many shocks in its lifetime, and it will probably sustain others. As my hon. Friend says, it is true that the resolutions to which he referred have not been carried out, and I am certain that Mr. Clerides will refer to that if he addresses the Security Council later today. I do not believe that the expulsion of any member of the United Nations is likely to bring about a better result, either to this situation or to others.
    Mr. Evelyn King: Is not the lesson to be learned that whereas in the past we had obligations and great powers, in the future we should be much more careful in throwing about guarantees and offering to be a guarantor State, unless we are certain that we shall be able and willing to implement the guarantees?
    Mr. Callaghan: It is not for me to attack, in the language which he chooses to employ, guarantees entered into by the hon. Member's own Government. But there is no doubt that we should relate our influence to our power to carry out our obligations. I do not accept the view that we have not carried out our obligations under the Treaty of Guarantee. It would be unfair to suggest that. The obligation upon us is to consult with
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    respect to representations or measures necessary to ensure observance of the provisions. We have done our best in this matter. We might be said to have gone the second mile towards it. But if others will not join us, it is impossible to get agreement. This is an issue which concerns us every day, and we are trying to take action to help the situation.
    Mr. Wellbeloved: Bearing in mind that it would be unfair to condemn the Republic of Turkey for responding to what was, after all, a coup by the Greek colonels supported by Fascist elements in Cyprus, if my right hon. Friend is looking for positive steps that the British Government could take, will he consider making representations to the United States Government in respect of aid to Turkey? Will he also accept the offer which I understand has been made to reopen the port of Famagusta for trade, to reopen Nicosia airport under the ægis of the United Nations, and accept the Turkish offer to take another 8,000 Greek Cypriot refugees back into the northern enclave of Cyprus?
    Mr. Callaghan: I am obliged to my hon. Friend for those suggestions. Alas, none of them is new. All these proposals have been canvassed before. That does not depreciate their validity, and I should be happy to see them accepted. But no one yet has shown me the way to get people to accept these recommendations.

    Passports
    Mr. Rostasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he is satisfied with existing arrangements for vetting applications for new passports at the Passport Office.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Miss Joan Lestor): We would be more satisfied if the Passport Office had the facility to obtain irrefutable proof of identity, whilst still being able to issue over 1 million passports annually without unreasonable delay or inconvenience to the public. That is the objective of the present procedural review.
    Mr. Rost: Since the Minister admitted to me in replies to questions that no effective system existed for vetting passport applications, to ensure that none

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    were issued to dead people, will the Department look into this matter to see whether a vetting system can be set up? How can the Department be sure that no passports are being issued to dead people?
    Miss Lestor: The hon. Gentleman has had extensive correspondence with me and with my right hon. Friend on this matter. The production of the death certificate or the birth certificate, be the person dead or alive, is irrelevant. The Passport Office relies for identity verification upon the signature of the professional person who testifies as to his personal knowledge that the details supplied are correct. I know that the hon. Gentleman is interested in this matter. One of the difficulties involved in checking people's deaths in relation to applications for passports is that there is no central record which includes details of all deaths in the United Kingdom and deaths of United Kingdom citizens which take place overseas.
    Deaths in England and Wales are recorded in one place, deaths in Scotland in another place, and deaths in Northern Ireland in yet another place. It is an administratively impossible task to try to set up such a system, but we are doing our best.
    Mr. Edward Lyons: Will my hon. Friend consider making it obligatory for those responsible for the estates of deceased persons to return the passports of those deceased persons to the Foreign Office? At present it seems as though there are thousands of passports lying about the country in the hands of people who have inherited them from dead people.
    Miss Lestor: I shall consider that suggestion and write to my hon. and learned Friend about the possibility of doing this, because, on the face of it, it seems to provide one way, at least, of making some sort of check.

    Hong Kong
    Mr. Warrenasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will appoint a commission to investigate the allegations made recently concerning corruption in the Hong Kong Police to which individuals could
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    give evidence in camera if they so wished.
    Mr. Hattersley: No, Sir. The Independent Commission Against Corruption set up by the governor has been in operation for just over a year, and has already achieved distinct success. It has received a large measure of support from the Hong Kong public and must be given a proper opportunity to fulfil its task.
    Mr. Warren: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that there is widespread disquiet about the allegations which are being bandied about regarding the standards of the Hong Kong Police, that the public and the police in Hong Kong need an assurance that those allegations will be properly investigated, and that in their opinion that can be done only by an inquiry set up by the right hon. Gentleman's office? Is it not also necessary to assure potential recruits from this country to the Hong Kong Police that they are entering a force which is as good as it should be?
    Mr. Hattersley: I am aware of the widespread disquiet, which has existed for some time. It was because of that that an independent commission was set up. Nothing which I say or which anyone else says in this House should undermine the confidence of the people of Hong Kong in that commission, and the commission must be allowed to continue its work.
    Mr. James Johnson: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the many charges laid at the door of the Attorney-General's office by a Councillor Mrs. Elsie Eliot, who is well known to many hon. Members on both sides of the House? Will my right hon. Friend say how many prosecutions laid before it have been dropped by the Attorney-General's office, on instructions of that office? Would not it carry more conviction and give far more confidence to the people of Hong Kong if a Royal Commission were sent out there, based on and advised by officers of Scotland Yard itself?
    Mr. Hattersley: On the specific allegations by the lady to whom my hon. Friend referred, I am afraid that I can give no information today, but I take note of what my hon. Friend says, and I shall try to answer his detailed question.

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    As for a Royal Commission, I say again that the commission in Hong Kong must be allowed to carry out its work. Suggestions that it will not or cannot do so will not help it in doing so.
    Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: Is not speed of the utmost importance in this matter, and is not an objection to the appointment of any further commission, especially any further commission from the United Kingdom, that that would delay considerably the very necessary rooting out of corruption which the Cater Commission is doing so well?
    Mr. Hattersley: Although I think that the hon. and learned Gentleman's point about the necessity for speed is a good one, the main point about alternative forms of investigation must be the implication that the present form is not working well. We have no evidence to suggest that that is the case.

    Namibia (Ovamboland)
    Mr. Farrasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if, in view of the 50 per cent. turn-out in the Legislative Assembly poll in Ovamboland in South West Africa despite the total boycott recommendation by the South West Africa People's Organisation, Her Majesty's Government will cease to recognise that organisation as the sole representative of political opinion there; and if he will instruct Her Majesty's Government's representative at the United Nations to raise the matter in the Assembly.
    Miss Joan Lestor: Her Majesty's Government have never regarded SWAPO as the sole representative of the inhabitants of Namibia, and have made this clear at the United Nations. But SWAPO will have an important part to play in any negotiations for the self-determination and independence of Namibia.
    Mr. Farr: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that answer. Will she bear in mind that the people who voted in contradiction to the views of SWAPO amount to more than 50 per cent. of those who turned out on polling day? Does she realise that there is a large body of opinion in South West Africa in favour of working with and co-operating with South Africa to their mutual future benefit?
    Miss Lestor: I said in my original reply that we did not regard SWAPO as the sole representative of the people of Namibia, but it would be foolish to imagine that it did not represent a very large portion of opinion there. However, if other groups care to contact us, we shall be prepared to talk to them.
    Mr. Edward Lyons: Bearing in mind that Ovamboland is a long way from the centres of white population, as I know only too well, having been to South Africa, does my hon. Friend agree that it is very difficult for people in Windhoek, the capital, to know what is going on in Ovamboland and that it is almost impossible for them to get there? Therefore, it is not possible to say how accurate these election returns in Ovamboland were.
    Miss Lestor: I do not have full details of the results of the elections and it would be difficult to hazard any conclusion at this stage. But my hon. and learned Friend's point should be borne in mind.

    New Hebrides
    Mr. Paul Deanasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he intends to bring forward legislation relating to a representative assembly and local government bodies for the New Hebrides.
    Miss Joan Lestor: The need does not arise. Local legislation will be sufficient to provide for the establishment of a representative assembly, subject to any necessary amendment of the Anglo-French Protocol of 1914 concerning the New Hebrides.
    Legislation providing for the establishment of local government bodies has already been enacted in the New Hebrides.
    Mr. Dean: As I recently visited the New Hebrides, may I say how glad I am that the hon. Lady has been there herself. Will she confirm that the representative assembly will be elected this year and that the Lord President, in answer to a Question last Thursday, was incorrect when he said that it would be elected next year? Further, will she try to ensure that in any future projects the unity between the British and French administrations is emphasised, rather than their separation?
    Miss Lestor: I hope that the hon. Gentleman enjoyed his visit to the New Hebrides as much as I enjoyed mine. I am grateful for his interest in this matter. First, I confirm that, arising from the visit of the French Minister and myself a short while ago, work on the elections is now in hand. It is hoped that the first local government bodies will be elected in May and that the representative assembly will be elected before the end of 1975. Part of the reason for our joint visit and the talks which took place here before our visit—and, hopefully, our visit later in the middle of this year—is to try to establish a framework which will erode the separations that have existed for so long and have been so damaging to the New Hebrides.
    Mr. Christopher Price: Will my hon. Friend bear in mind that the title to land of many of the non-indigenous purported owners of land in the New Hebrides is very shaky? Before Britain finally relinquishes control of the New Hebrides, will my hon. Friend use her good offices to try to sort out the problem as quickly as possible?
    Miss Lestor: I know something about the dispute over land tenure in the New Hebrides and I believe that it would take more than my good offices to sort out that difficult and complicated problem. However, while I was in the New Hebrides I had a great deal of discussion on the problem. In fact, discussions are still taking place. I assure my hon. Friend that we are hoping very much that we shall get somewhere in the future on that problem.
    Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine: What measure of co-operation has the hon. Lady been receiving from the French on this matter?
    Miss Lestor: I am pleased to assure the House that when the French Minister and I met in November of last year we had a broad base of agreement for the sort of situation that we wished to suggest to the people of the New Hebrides. That was appreciated by the people of the New Hebrides. We are hoping to meet again later this year to review progress. I hope to return again after the elections to see what is taking place in the New Hebrides.

    South Africa (British Emigrants)
    Mr. Leslie Huckfieldasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what was the amount paid out by his Department in the last year for which figures are available of repatriation of British citizens who emigrated to South Africa and who wished to return to this country; what amount of this was recovered; and if he will make a statement.
    Miss Joan Lestor: During the year ended 31st March 1974, £5,608·88 was expended on the repatriation of United Kingdom citizens who had emigrated to South Africa. Of this, £526·58 has been recovered.
    Mr. Huckfield: If British citizens are to be tempted to a life of game reserves and black housemaids by the South African Government, why should the British taxpayer have to pay for them to come back if they do not like it? If British citizens are to be lured by the South African Government with free passages and false promises, should we not make it clear that they do so at their own risk?
    Miss Lestor: First, we do not supply public funds to people solely because they do not like the country in which they have chosen to live. We take the view that people who are destitute in a foreign country, whether it be South Africa or anywhere else—for example, widows—have compassionate claims on the British Government to ensure that they return to this country. My hon. Friend is well aware that I share his view about people who emigrate to South Africa to bolster up the régime.
    Sir Frederic Bennett: Let us put the matter into perspective cost-wise. Has the Minister any figures today—if not perhaps she will make them available to the House—to indicate what percentage of British people who leave this country each year express a wish to come back with or without the help of British funds?
    Miss Lestor: I do not have that information available. If the hon. Gentleman cares to table a specific Question I shall find the information for him.

    Portugal
    Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement about the state of Anglo-Portuguese relations.
    Mr. James Callaghan: During my visit to Portugal on 6th and 7th February I had talks with Dr. Soares and a meeting with the President and Prime Minister. I expressed our support and understanding for the forces in Portugal working for democracy. Relations between Britain and Portugal are excellent.
    I have placed in the Library a copy of the joint communiqué issued at the end of the visit.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: I welcome the right hon. Gentleman's expression of support for the democratic element in Portugal, but how does he now assess the prospects for democracy there? How does he propose to implement his intention of bringing Portugal closer to the EEC? In view of his promise to help the African territories, did he receive assurances about our facilities in Cabo Verde?
    Mr. Callaghan: As to the prospects for democracy, the elections for the constitutional assembly have now been announced for 12th April. In so far as my judgment is worth anything, I judge that the elections will be held and that the people of Portugal will be able to express their opinion through the ballot box. As regards the EEC, when the Foreign Ministers met in Dublin on 13th February—my right hon. Friend was present—they reiterated their interest and the importance that they attach to close relations with Portugal. I know from my conversation with Dr. Soares that that feeling is reciprocated. I am afraid that I had no conversation with Dr. Soares about the Cape Verde Islands.
    Mr. Luard: Will my right hon. Friend say whether, as a result of the return towards a more democratic situation in Portugal, the British Government are supporting, or will support, Portugal's membership of the Council of Europe?
    Mr. Callaghan: Yes—
    Mr. Skinner: If they want to go.
    Mr. Callaghan: I think they will want to go, as a matter of fact. As far as the Council of Europe is concerned—[Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) should listen.
    Mr. Skinner: I am listening very closely.
    Mr. Callaghan: I am referring to the Council of Europe, to which I hope my hon. Friend, among others, is dedicated. He should not get so cross about these matters. If Portugal wishes to make an application to join the Council of Europe, that application will have the support of Her Majesty's Government.

    European Co-operation and Security
    Mr. Sproatasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the progress of the Conference on Co-operation and Security in Europe.
    Mr. James Callaghan: The conference continues to make steady progress. Useful agreement was recorded before the Christmas break on the principles of human rights and self-determination, on family reunification and on marriage. Since then we have been trying, with our partners and allies, to push matters forward on some of the central issues which remain outstanding, and my right hon. Friend and I had useful discussions in Moscow on these matters.
    Mr. Sproat: In view of what the Prime Minister said yesterday about the possibility of a summit conference arising out of the CSCE, will the right hon. Gentleman now state specifically what provisions and guarantees the United Kingdom and its allies still require and which they have not obtained from the Soviet Union regarding, first, prior notice of troop manoeuvres and, secondly, the freer flow of people and information, before they will agree to a summit conference?
    Mr. Callaghan: These are the issues—two of which the hon. Gentleman outlined—which are at present holding up the summit conference. They are confidence-building measures, such as the prior notification of manoeuvres and the areas in which the manoeuvres should be notified. I was interested to read that, unusually, the Soviet Union made a public announcement of manoeuvres only on

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    Monday last. On the hon. Gentleman's second point, about human contacts, the principle has still to be worked out. It is not yet in a condition which is final. There is a third problem to which the hon. Gentleman did not refer—the question of how frontiers can be changed peacefully. That is particularly important not only to Germany but to other countries.
    Mr. Robin F. Cook: Has my right hon. Friend noted that included in the joint statement issued with the Russian Government was a phrase about the need to translate political détente into a military détente? Does this mean that there is any hope of successful progress and that the security conference can be used to break the deadlock in the mutual and balanced force reductions talks, which show every sign of being about to grind to a halt?
    Mr. Callaghan: I do not think that they are about to grind to a halt. I think that that conference has been very slow but this will continue until the CSCE, to which the question is addressed, come to a conclusion. My hope is that, when the CSCE is coming to a conclusion, we will then find more movement in the mutual and balanced force reductions talks in Vienna.
    Sir Anthony Royle: Did the right hon. Gentleman discuss with Russian Ministers while he was in Moscow the question of broadcasts in the English language by the Soviet Government? Is he aware that there are regular morning broadcasts in English appealing to the British people to vote "No" in any referendum on our membership of the EEC?
    Mr. Callaghan: No. I was not aware of that, but on the whole I think that outside propaganda is likely to be counterproductive. I would not think it necessary to make representations on that issue.

    West Germany (Foreign Minister)
    Mr. Jim Spicerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he next proposes to meet the Foreign Minister of the Federal German Republic.
    Mr. James Callaghan: I expect to see Herr Genscher next at the meeting of the Council of Ministers of the European Community on 3rd and 4th March.
    Mr. Spicer: Will the right hon. Gentleman take that opportunity to discuss with the Foreign Minister the recent speech in which he pointed to his fears and forebodings about the future—not only for this country, the EEC and the whole of Europe, but for the rest of the world—if we were to withdraw from the Community? Does he share in whole or in part the views expressed in that speech?
    Mr. Callaghan: I often discuss this matter with Herr Genscher and I do not suppose that the talks on 3rd and 4th March will be any exception. It is true that Herr Schmidt and Herr Genscher have both expressed a desire that Britain should remain a member of the Community, because they believe that that would strengthen Europe's position in the world and that this is a necessary step. The British people themselves will express their decision on that in due course.
    Mr. Fernyhough: In view of the strength of the German economy and its favourable balance of trade, when the Foreign Secretary meets his German counterpart will he discuss with him the shortfall, over the years, in the offset agreement? Does he not agree that if that agreement were examined in terms of the past 20 years it would prove that the Germans had fallen behind by hundreds of millions of pounds? In view of their strength now and our relative weakness, would this not be a good opportunity for them to clear that moral debt?
    Mr. Callaghan: I do not know that it would be accepted as a moral debt, because it is presumably to our advantage as well as theirs that we are there. I realise that my right hon. Friend has asked questions on this matter of the Secretary of State for Defence. When I was Chancellor I took some steps to get a better balance in this situation, and I am sure that the present Chancellor will continue to do the same.

    Strategic Arms Limitation Talks
    Mr. Robin F. Cookasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he has made to the US Government concerning the recent talks on strategic arms limitation between Warsaw Pact countries and NATO countries.
    Mr. James Callaghan: Consultations take place at regular intervals with the United States about the US-Soviet strategic arms limitation talks. The talks between NATO and Warsaw Pact countries in Vienna are concerned with mutual and balanced force reductions in Central Europe and do not cover strategic arms.
    Mr. Cook: Is my right hon. Friend satisfied with the basis of the SALT, which provide for a considerable increase in strategic arms over their present levels? If he is so satisfied, how does he reconcile it with the Government's repeated statement that they hope for a successful outcome to the review conference on the non-proliferation treaty, when the main stumbling block will be the failure of the nuclear Powers to achieve genuine nuclear disarmament?
    Mr. Callaghan: We welcome the Soviet-American agreement at Vladivostock—it was an agreement—and we look forward to further limitation of strategic offensive weapons and to reductions in their numbers. I realise that there is some arithmetical and statistical dispute about this, but there can be no doubt in my judgment that, as a result of Vladivostock, there is a growing understanding and confidence between the two super-Powers who hold these weapons. I believe that agreement there can lead to limitations in their use and to reduction in their numbers.

    Rhodesia
    Mr. Rifkindasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will make a statement with regard to the replies he has had from Rhodesian authorities to British representations concerning the release from restriction of Mr. Garfield Todd, former Prime Minister of Rhodesia.
    Miss Joan Lestor: I have nothing to add to the reply I gave the hon. Member on 29th January, when I said:
    "We are urging all concerned to carry out the terms of the agreements reached in Lusaka last month which provide for the release of all detainees and restrictees. That would, of course, include Mr. Todd, whose continued restriction I deplore."—[Vol. 885, c. 157.]
    Mr. Rifkind: I am grateful to the hon. Lady. Does she appreciate that it appears now that Mr. Garfield Todd has been
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    specifically excluded from the terms of the Lusaka agreement and that he is one of the few Europeans in Rhodesia who has the almost complete trust of the African population? Will she renew the Government's efforts to persuade the Rhodesian Government to realise that the success of the forthcoming conference may at least partly depend on the release of Mr. Todd?
    Miss Lestor: First, I repeat that I deplore the continued restriction of Mr. Garfield Todd, just as I do that of many Africans in detention whose names will not be so well known to hon. Members. I do not want to lay down preconditions, but we continue to press for their release. We regard it as part and parcel of the outcome of some of the discussions held recently. If people are to be true to what they have said about their hopes for settling the problems over Rhodesia, they will take heed of the agreements which were reached in Lusaka.
    Mr. Lee: Does my hon. Friend agree that the remarks of the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Rifkind) are highly commendable? Will she also bear in mind that as time goes on the bargaining power of the Smith régime will be diminished and our ability to put the heat on it to bring about the release of the detainees—Mr. Garfield Todd among them—will increase accordingly?
    Miss Lestor: The situation in Southern Africa has moved very fast. Without going into detail, I agree that time is not on the side of Mr. Ian Smith in this situation.

    Vietnam
    Mrs. Renée Shortasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he had in Washington about the situation in Vietnam; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. James Callaghan: Details of our discussions are confidential.
    Mrs. Short: Did my right hon. Friend draw to the attention of the people with whom he had these confidential discussions the concern felt by many people all over the world about the continuation of the fighting two years after the signing of the Paris Agreement? Did he draw

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    to their attention the concern felt at the continuing supply of American war materials to the Saigon Government and the imprisonment of about 200,000 political prisoners in Saigon's gaols? If not, why not?
    Mr. Callaghan: It is public knowledge, irrespective of any representations or discussions I had, that the British Government have been in touch with both the North and the South Vietnamese Governments to express our grave concern about the fighting which is going on. The United States itself, as is also public knowledge, has made it clear that the way to tackle this problem is for the talks provided for in the agreement to be resumed between the parties. As for arms supply, that is going on on both sides and is not contrary to the agreement signed in Paris. Indeed, it is specifically provided for, in the matter of replacements. Clearly, however, the right thing here is for the fighting to stop and for the two parties to engage in the talks which both agreed in Paris to undertake.
    Sir Frederic Bennett: Meanwhile, will the right hon. Gentleman admit, in common fairness, that the fighting which is going on is by North Vietnamese or North Vietnamese-sponsored troops against positions in the South, and that there are no South Vietnamese or South Vietnamese-sponsored troops engaging in hostilities in the North?
    Mr. Callaghan: It is true that hostilities are not being engaged in in the North. I think it is the PRG which is conducting much of the fighting going on in the South at present.

    Multi-Rôle Combat Aircraft
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will discuss with his counterparts in WEU the implications of Article II and Annex III of the Brussels Treaty, as amended in 1954, which precludes the Federal Republic of Germany from the manufacture in its territory of certain types of armaments including bomber aircraft for strategic purposes, for the construction of the multi-rôle combat aircraft jointly with German and Italian firms.
    Mr. Hattersley: The MRCA is not intended for strategic purposes and there-
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    fore does not fall within the provisions of the Revised Brussels Treaty to which my hon. Friend has referred.
    Mr. Allaun: That is an amazing answer. How can it be said that the MRCA is not banned by the treaty when two of the aircraft which we are told it is to replace are the Vulcan and the Buccaneer bomber? Secondly, is he aware that when, recently, 34 Socialist deputies in Bonn voted against the aircraft, they did so not merely because of its colossal cost but—greatly to their credit—because they were opposed to their country's making strategic bombers in conflict with the treaty?
    Mr. Hattersley: Both my hon. Friend and the Bonn deputies to whom he referred have to face two simple semantic facts. First, the Vulcan was originally employed in a strategic rôle but was then regraded and used for a different purpose. It is the non-strategic rôle which the Vulcan recently occupied for which the MRCA is equipped, and it is fulfilling that rôle—[interruption.] That is what "strategic" means, and my hon. Friend must realise it.
    Secondly, there is a standard definition of "strategic". It refers to definite operations designed to effect the progressive destruction and disintegration of an enemy's war-making capacity. That is not a capability to which the aircraft he mentioned applies, and therefore my answer is right in every particular.

    Renegotiation
    Mr. Alan Lee Williamsasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he will list the outstanding items in the United Kingdom's renegotiation of membership of the EEC.
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what are now the main problems still unresolved in the EEC renegotiations.
    Mr. Palmerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what items of the renegotiation which he outlined on 1st April 1974 remain outstanding.
    Mr. Callaghan: The principal matters still to be settled are those listed in my

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    right hon. Friend's reply of 29th January to the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes), but we have made further progress in dealing with them in the last three weeks.
    Mr. Hamilton: Is my right hon. Friend aware that whenever or however renegotiations are completed, there are some Members on both sides of the House who do not want the negotiations to succeed? Will he reaffirm his commitment to the Labour Party manifesto, namely, that the objective of renegotiation is to stay in the Common Market? Will he also assure the House that when renegotiations are completed there will be a free vote not only among members of the Cabinet but on the Floor of the House?
    Mr. Callaghan: My hon. Friend is too old a bird to expect me to comment on the subject of free votes, certainly when my right hon. Friend the Chief Whip is not present. As regards the first part of his supplementary question, having been given that task by the Labour Party through our election manifesto, it was my job to try to carry out that task, and I shall negotiate for success, not for failure. That has been my object the whole way through. I am sorry if any degree of success I may achieve causes other people pain, but it seems to me that that is the only way in which to go into negotiations.
    The negotiations are not yet complete. There are still some important subjects on which agreement must be secured. I shall do my best to secure agreement on them on the conditions laid down in the Labour Party manifesto.
    Mr. Donald Stewart: Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that since the original Six in the Common Market had no fisheries policy until the British application for entry was received, and since they then rapidly got together to "cobble" one up, the moratorium until 1982 is one of the vital issues that must be renegotiated, otherwise Common Market vessels will have the same rights in our fisheries as do our fishermen, and if they employ their methods of fishing here our waters will be as clear of fish as are the waters around other Common Market countries?
    Mr. Callaghan: The question of fisheries is an important matter for the
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    whole of the United Kingdom and, indeed, for some other members of the Community. I should not like to give the hon. Gentleman a detailed answer, but I undertake to send him a written reply when I have considered the matter.
    Mr. Jay: As the present Prime Minister's chief objection to the terms of entry into the Common Market was the absence of any provision for long-term free access for New Zealand produce, may we assume that the present Government are pressing for long-term free access for New Zealand produce? If so what success has there been so far?
    Mr. Callaghan: There have been conversations between the New Zealand Prime Minister and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and myself. We are making substantial progress on the question of access for New Zealand produce. I believe that it will not be impossible to secure a reasonable solution to the problem.
    Mr. Blaker: Does the right hon. Gentleman feel that there should be a debate at the conclusion of the Government's negotiations when the terms are known and before the House discusses the Bill on the referendum?
    Mr. Callaghan: That is not a matter for me, but if I may be allowed to advance an opinion as one member of the House, it is surely inconceivable that the House would not want to debate the result of the renegotiations.
    Mr. Skinnerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he can now give a firm date for the conclusion of the negotiations with the EEC.
    Mr. James Callaghan: My aim is to complete renegotiation by Easter and we are continuing to make reasonable progress, but I cannot yet give a firm date.
    Mr. Skinner: Does my right hon. Friend agree that we cannot afford to waste any more time on these rather trivial exchanges that are constantly putting up prices, and that we should get down to some real negotiations, which have not been evident so far? Has my right hon. Friend seen, for instance, the trade deficit figures for the last quarter of 1974, which show a minus of £614

    1329
    million? Is it not time we stopped this external bleeding? Soon we shall not have enough money even to buy the bandages.
    Mr. Callaghan: The deficits that we are running are extremely serious. They show that British industry is not taking advantage of the opportunities available to export. I am not ascribing blame. I am describing a simple situation that exists. But I do not believe that membership of the Community has affected one way or the other British industry's capacity to export.
    Mr. Adley: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that many people will feel that the remarks he has just made are the correct assessment of the figures bandied about on both sides of the argument? As renegotiation is about terms and not principle, will he, when the renegotiations are complete to the Government's satisfaction, emphasise to the country that the original aims of the Community include an underlying European political unity?
    Mr. Callaghan: That was one of the original aims, but I think that the passage of years has altered the way in which many people thought that it would be approached. The kind of political unity that is achieved now is achieved through meetings of the Council of Foreign Ministers, at which, attending as sovereign members, each carrying our own Parliament behind us—at least, we hope we are—we reach common agreements on issues of common importance.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. We must move on to Question No. 30, which is on this point.
    Mr. Gouldasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether the retention of parliamentary control over fiscal, regional and industrial policies is one of the objects of renegotiations with the EEC.
    Mr. James Callaghan: Yes, Sir. It is the aim of renegotiation to ensure that the effective policies which the Government and Parliament adopt in these matters are not frustrated by the operation of the treaties.
    Mr. Gould: Does my right hon. Friend accept that the Question and the election
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    manifesto on which it is based specified parliamentary as distinct from ministerial control? Does he not agree that Parliament can reassert such control only if the constitutional relationship between the House and the law makers in Brussels is changed?
    Mr. Callaghan: I do not accept that. The concept of Government control and ministerial control clearly implies parliamentary control. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] I stand at this Box only because I have the support of my hon. Friends. [Interruption.] If I did not have it, I would not be here. It is on that basic that our control will continue to be exercised. I remain answerable to the House, as does every other Minister.
    Mr. Thorpe: In order to save the right hon. Gentleman from having to answer such questions, so that he may devote his time to other matters, will he refer his hon. Friend, and everyone else who asks similar questions, to all the excellent speeches made by the Prime Minister before 1969, in which he dealt specifically with the point of sovereignty, assuring the House and the country that there was no question of Britain's giving up her sovereignty and that we would remain an independent sovereign country? Will he see that those excellent speeches by the Prime Minister are made available to his colleagues?
    Mr. Callaghan: I always regard my right hon. Friend's speeches as excellent, whatever they are about, but I am becoming increasingly aware that even if I bring back a crock of gold from Brussels it will not satisfy some people. Because that is so, and because I wish to adhere to the contents of the Labour Party manifesto and to conference decisions, I shall continue to take that stand. It is the only safe ground for me to rely upon.
    Mr. Biffen: Is it the object of the renegotiations or is it the right hon. Gentleman's view that he already possesses the authority to implement import controls, as has been suggested by the Cambridge Group of Economists?
    Mr. Callaghan: I should want notice of that question.
    Mr. Atkinson: Does my right hon. Friend agree that his answer to this Question and to earlier questions demonstrates

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    clearly both the farce and the dishonesty of the original application to join the Community, in the sense that the whole case was based upon our trading position improving as a result of joining a much enlarged home market? Yet the existence of a home market depends entirely upon monetary union. As Government policy is now to move away from monetary union, does not that give the lie to the original intention that we could talk in terms of an enlarged home market?
    Mr. Callaghan: I see part of the point made by my hon. Friend, and it has considerable relevance as long as we do not move to economic and monetary union. As the House knows, it is not only my view but the view of the Community that we shall not move there. On the other hand, there has been a substantial and continuing reduction of tariffs between the members of the Community and, I hope, under the multilateral trade negotiations, between the Community and countries outside. To that extent the market is growing. However, I have never believed that the creation of this larger market would of itself improve our trading conditions. That remedy lies here, at home. The National Enterprise Board and other measures being taken by the Government are steps in that direction.
    Mr. John Davies: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that in the two years that we have been members the Community has never interfered in our fiscal, regional or industrial policies on any material matter?
    Mr. Callaghan: Offhand, I should think that is broadly true. There are areas where it has got close to it. I think that if we remain members of the Community—we must face all these facts, so let us face them fairly—there will always be areas where the Commission will try to extend its authority and where individual national governments will resist that extension. There will be this continuing tension between the two. If I had to make a summary at this stage, I should say that on my experience so far, broadly speaking, I am satisfied that the United Kingdom Government and Ministers, if they have the will, can look after us in Brussels.
    Mrs. Wise: Can my right hon. Friend deny that whether or not such powers have been used in the past two years the
    1332
    Commission has power to intervene in our industrial policy? For example, yesterday we gave a Second Reading to the Industry Bill, which is of great importance. If the Commission decides that that will distort competition, it can overrule the intentions of this House and of the Government.
    Mr. Callaghan: That is a pretty general question, but I think that my answer must be "No". My hon. Friend's appreciation of the situation is not correct. I do not think for a moment—
    Mr. Spearing: Read Article 3 of the Treaty of Rome.
    Mr. Callaghan: I am giving the answer. It may be that my hon. Friend has a different view. I do not think for a moment that the Commission will put itself into the position that my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, South-West (Mrs. Wise) thinks it might take. That is my view about the situation. Others will no doubt have different views. But let us not destroy ourselves with hobgoblins. Let us look at the reality of the situation.
    Mrs. Winifred Ewing: In the renegotiations, will the right hon. Gentleman insist on his right to apply our regional policies within the United Kingdom? May we have a clear answer on that matter?
    Mr. Callaghan: Yes. I hope that the House will very soon debate the co-ordination of regional aids. Indeed, I should like the opportunity of joining in such a debate if I manage to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker. The co-ordination of regional aids is an issue to which I attach great importance because, like the hon. Lady, I represent a development area. Therefore, I am not anxious to be put into a position in which our attempts to deal with unemployment or structural problems can be overridden by people outside this country. There is a difference between that proposition and the other proposition, that competition between countries in their regional aids can be self-destroying if they run to excess. If the Commission's proposals are based on trying to co-ordinate the extent of regional aid, they could turn out to be of advantage to this country, as to others.
    Mr. Roper: Will my right hon. Friend confirm, in the context of his last answer,

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    that in almost any international economic agreement, whether in EFTA, in the free trade agreement between Sweden and Austria and the Community, or in the European Economic Community, there are inevitable restrictions on some national policies to prevent that kind of wasteful competition?
    Mr. Callaghan: Yes. That is true, for example, in the sphere of giving credit and of what can be done in the matter of supporting exports. If it is a bargain that is worth this country's while making, let us make it. If not, let us say so and come to a clear conclusion on the issue.

    Budget
    Mr. Mike Thomasasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he had at the Council of Ministers on 10th and 11th February about the United Kingdom's contribution to the EEC budget; and if he will make a statement.
    Sir A. Meyerasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress he has made in his negotiations with the other member States of the EEC relative to Great Britain's contribution to the Community budget since the EEC Summit of 9th-10th December 1974.
    Mr. Fitchasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he is now able to make a statement on Great Britain's contribution to the EEC budget.
    Mr. Hattersley: We had a useful discussion in the Council on 10th February. We examined the Commission's proposals for the budget-correcting mechanism, which follow the lines laid down by Heads of Government in December. It was agreed that work should continue at official level to prepare for the Council or 3rd and 4th March, when I would like to see the matter settled.
    Mr. Thomas: Does my right hon. Friend agree that if we achieve what it looks likely we shall achieve on this front, it will meet our objectives in the renegotiations, and that some of my hon. Friends cannot say, on the one hand, that our contribution as negotiated by the Conservatives was crippling, and, on the other,
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    when we have negotiated a solution, that it was of no account at all?
    Mr. James Callaghan: They can, and they will.
    Mr. Hattersley: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary reminds me that they can say that, but it is up to us to judge whether they are reasonable or unreasonable in taking that view. As for the proposals made by the Commission, they are the basis for successful renegotiation of that item on the agenda. I hope and believe that certain improvements could be made in the coming weeks. I hope that those improvements will be concluded by the first week in March. If adjustments of an important nature are obtained on that date, I hope that the renegotiations will end successfully.
    Sir A. Meyer: Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether the accusation that the Commission is "faceless" is correct, and whether the Commission has taken a useful and constructive rôle in the negotiations?
    Mr. Hattersley: The Commission is to be thanked and congratulated on the way it has assisted in the renegotiations. Its officials were given the task by Heads of Government and they carried out that work with a great deal of success. If the renegotiations succeed part of the credit must go to the Commission.
    Mr. Roy Hughes: Beside our budgetary contributions, does my right hon. Friend feel that we should go on indefinitely subsidising inefficient French farmers to produce surpluses which are then sold to Russia? Does he not feel that the point of these renegotiations should be the final disposal of the common agricultural policy?
    Mr. Hattersley: There is a certain ambivalence in my answer to this question. I think it unjustifiable for us to go on subsidising inefficient farmers, but I want to go on enjoying the comparatively cheap foodstuffs from Europe.
    Mr. Powell: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that in the context of the Government's renegotiations they are committed to the view that both the taxes and the budgets are unacceptable, and also the purposes on which most of the money is spent?
    Mr. Hattersley: The right hon. Gentleman is quoting from a manifesto which he and I supported in the recent elections. I promise him that we are doing our best to carry it out.

    Political Union
    Mr. Martenasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on the Government's policy towards political union in the Common Market before the referendum is held.
    Mr. James Callaghan: I would refer to what I said in answer to the hon. Gentleman on 18th December 1974.—[Vol. 883, c. 439.]
    Mr. Marten: But, with the passage of years, is not political union now moving to political unity, as the Foreign Secretary has just said? If that is so, will not the Government and my right hon. Friends on the Opposition Front Bench make a clear declaration—that would satisfy the people before the referendum—that this country is totally opposed to any move towards a federal Europe?
    Mr. Callaghan: Yes, Sir. I have no difficulty in stating that. The hon. Gentleman knows that I have said on many occasions that I do not believe that we are in sight of moving to a federal Europe by 1980 or by any later date. But it would be absurd for the hon. Gentleman or any of the rest of us not to commit ourselves to some form of unity in the future, if it can be achieved. There is nothing wrong with unity, as such. It would be an absurd proposition for anyone to say otherwise. It is the conditions under which it is achieved, and it is whether people desire it—
    Mr. Marten: Just like Rippon!
    Mr. Callaghan: I appeal for your protection, Mr. Speaker.
    As far as I know, no Community Government regard themselves as committed to political union in this way. We are certainly not committed to it. It would be for the House to decide, if and when it wanted to take steps in that direction.
    Mr. James Johnson: Reverting to the supplementary question asked by the Leader of the Scottish National Party—the hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr.
    1336
    Stewart)—may I ask whether my right hon. Friend agrees that just as important as the common agricultural policy is the common fisheries policy? Is he aware that it must be settled before we get near a referendum? Having fished out their waters off Denmark, Holland, Belgium and France, Common Market inshore fishermen are now fishing in waters off our coasts. The matter must be settled before we decide, by vote or otherwise, whether our future is in the EEC.
    Mr. Callaghan: I do not believe that political union is concerned with this issue. I do not believe that it affects it one way or the other. I have already said that I shall look into the question of the fisheries policy again. There is a derogation until 1982. We can consider the matter on another occasion at greater leisure. It is not related to political union.
    Mr. David Steel: The right hon. Gentleman is right to rule out full union, as not being on the agenda, but when the Government make their recommendation on the question of remaining in the EEC or leaving it, will they make clear their intention about political and democratic involvement in Europe through the European Parliament?
    Mr. Callaghan: I do not know whether that would come at the end of the renegotiation period. Obviously, if the country decided to leave the Community the question would not arise, but if it took a decision to remain a member, the subject would come up for immediate decision.

    Council of Ministers
    Mr. Spearingasked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will state any changes in the provisional agenda of the Council of Ministers which he announced on 29th January last.
    Mr. Hattersley: The agendas of the meetings of the Council during February have closely followed my forecast. The main additions were the budgetary powers of the European Assembly and the Regional Policy Committee discussed by the Foreign Affairs Council. The main items which now seem unlikely to be discussed are the "stocktaking" report on the CAP and the draft Regulation on European Monetary Co-operation.
    Mr. Spearing: I thank my right hon. Friend for that information. Is he aware that of the 13 items discussed only three were discussed in the House before those meetings? In pursuance of our manifesto, which stated that the powers of the House would be protected, is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the method of reporting the outcome of these discussions is such that the House can be fully acquainted of what happened and call Ministers to account for their performance at the Council?
    Mr. Hattersley: As my hon. Friend knows, a Select Committee is examining the procedures. He will recall, from his close study of the subject, that the Government are observing to the letter the assurance we gave about the Scrutiny Committee, its examination, recommendations from it, and debates on those recommendations on the Floor of the House. That has applied during February 1975, as during previous months.
    Mr. Luard: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that he does not expect that at the meetings any issues will be raised in connection with our renegotiations other than those that have already been discussed, and that in particular the general question of sovereignty is not one of the items for renegotiation in them?
    Mr. Hatterley: My right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary has made clear since his 1st April speech that we had a list of renegotiation objectives, that we could withdraw none of them, but that we did not intend to add to that list. Sovereignty is involved in many of those items. Our intention to obtain assurances about the ability to have the regional policy of our choice is concerned with sovereignty. Where sovereignty is related to our legitimate aims, we shall of course pursue its ensurance, but only in those terms.

NORTH SEA OIL
The following Question stood upon the Order Paper:
Mr. SKINNER: To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether he will make a statement about his recent discussions with the leaders of the main United States oil companies.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Harold Lever): May I ask the leave of the House to answer Question No. 45?
I have explained to the leaders of both the British and the foreign oil companies that we are seeking to participate in commercial oilfields in the North Sea, on terms which will be fair to the companies and to the British people. The British people's fair share of the profits will be secured by taxation and existing royalties. What we are now seeking is to give the British people the title to a share of the oil itself on terms which are fair. We are now considering with each company how this objective might be achieved in its particular case.
Mr. Skinner: I should like to indicate briefly to you, Mr. Speaker, and to the House more particularly that the Prime Minister—[HON. MEMBERS: "Question."] I will get round to that. This is the first—
Mr. Speaker: Order. If this is a point or order I will hear the hon. Member later—
Mr. Skinner: It is two questions together.
Mr. Speaker: —but I should prefer that he first asked his supplementary question. I will hear his point of order later. I must ask him first to put his supplementary question.
Mr. Skinner: It spoils the effect, but that does not matter.
I am pleased to see my right hon. Friend here after he has visited so many countries. Is my right hon. Friend aware that consistently in this House in the period prior to the October election it was said that we would be wanting about £4,000 million, that would otherwise be taken in profits by the oil companies, for the benefit of the British taxpayer? How can that be consistent with his oftrepeated remarks in America and elsewhere to the US oil barons that he was out there to protect their interests as well? Does he, in his rather lofty position, understand that the Labour movement is showing tremendously deep concern about what is happening regarding activities on the energy front and, in particular, about the way in which he has been negotiating with the American oil companies

1339
and other companies involved in the North Sea?
Mr. Lever: First, I should like my hon. Friend to know that I appreciate his comments on my absence. I am sure that if he were absent more frequently he might be as well received. I am not clear about whose election speech my hon. Friend was referring to when he gave those interesting figures. It was certainly not mine.
Mr. Skinner: Every member of the Front Bench.
Mr. Lever: I do not think any member of the Front Bench would have committed himself—and he certainly would not have been wise to commit himself—to particular figures about the nation's share of the North Sea revenue. That share will be decided by the rate of petroleum revenue tax. There is no limit to that rate other than the limits placed by fairness and wisdom. That rate is at the disposal of the House and is not a question of participation. The participation proposals will, I think, be welcomed by my hon. Friend in that we are seeking to ensure a title for the British people to the oil itself.
Mr. Skinner: Not enough.
Mr. Lever: The share of the profits is quite another matter which can and will be dealt with by the PRT without limit other than the limits of fairness and wisdom.
Mr. Tapsell: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we all recognise the great importance of the future ownership of the oil but that there is great and growing concern that an excessive preoccupation with the sharing of the oil is slowing down the speed at which it will become available?
Mr. Lever: Far from slowing down the getting of the oil, our participation proposals will speed it up because in many cases where participants are not able to find the funds the Government are involved in giving the necessary financial help. That is speeding up the contribution of some of the lagging members of syndicates who cannot move because of the shortage of funds—shortages which the Government are in many cases invited to make good.
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I invite the hon. Member in this context to reflect upon the situation with Burmah Oil, which was a member of a syndicate. Without the Government's intervention by way of participation, the whole syndicate might have been held up indefinitely.
Mr. Mendelson: It will be widely understood that my right hon. Friend has to make a careful judgment as to what would ensure the further large-scale participation of the oil companies for the good of the new oilfields and the people of Britain. On the other hand, there is the question whether a propaganda campaign is not at present in progress in which some of the oil companies are deliberately exaggerating the difficulties. Will my right hon. Friend assure the House that he will be very watchful that the Government do not fall for any such exaggerations?
Mr. Lever: I am not aware of any specific campaign. There has been a reaction to the proposal by my right hon. Friend to impose petroleum revenue tax, but taxes are normally not received with cries of enthusiasm by those who are to participate in the contribution to them. One must allow for a certain pardonable vigour with which taxes are received. I am not aware of any campaign. Indeed, I have had very amicable discussions with the oil companies. I found them most responsive and understanding to the need to gratify the purposes of the British people in respect of the title to a share of the oil. We are proceeding to discuss this very problem.
Mr. Skeet: Did the Chancellor of the Duchy say to any oil company in regard to existing licences that unless it was prepared to accede to a 51 per cent. Government stake he would use legislative pressure to gain it?
Mr. Lever: I made it absolutely plain to the oil companies, first, that the Government would scrupulously honour all their contractual and commercial obligations. Secondly, I made clear that if they did not feel able to participate on the terms I outlined, or if they preferred not to participate at all, I had no statutory powers. I had to tell them that it was very possible that if they did not feel free to participate, the Cabinet would be free—the hon. Member for Bedford

1341
(Mr. Skeet) does not need to lean forward in his seat as if to leap upon me. I told them that the Cabinet might feel obliged, if it were unable to satisfy its objectives, which seem to us fair and reasonable and not incompatible with the interests of the oil companies, by voluntary agreement with them, to nationalise—
Mr. Skeet: Blackmail.
Mr. Lever: The hon. Member should permit me to answer the question. I was saying that the Cabinet might feel obliged to nationalise that proportion of the licences that it thought right to nationalize, I made it absolutely plain, however, that if the Government did so—and I could not say whether they would or would not—there would be full and fair compensation as we have always provided on such occasions. There was no blackmail—merely an indication of a legitimate objective which I hope we may achieve voluntarily but which, if we do not, we would achieve only on terms of complete propriety and respect for our obligations.
Mr. Alexander Wilson: I was amazed to hear my right hon. Friend say that he was not aware of the campaign by and for the oil companies. On this important question of the fuel and energy resources of Britain will my right hon. Friend listen to the back benchers who had perforce to serve on the Oil Taxation Bill Standing Committee and who are now trying to tell him of the campaigns and pressures by the oil companies in the interest of profit. We in the Labour Party are concerned that the oil resources of this country should be conserved for the people of Britain in the first instance. My right hon. Friend should listen to his hon. Friends who served on that Committee.
Mr. Lever: I am never obliged to listen to oil companies but I am always obliged to take into account what is said by my right hon. and hon. Friends. It will be for the House to decide what the rate of PRT will be, for it is that rate which will determine what is an appropriate division of the fruits of the North Sea between those who have brought their capital, know-how and effort to bear and
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the British people to whom the North Sea belongs.
Mr. Patrick Jenkin: Did the right hon. Gentleman explain to the oil industry in New York what conceivable purpose there is in trying to get 51 per cent. participation if the Government are not looking for any additional revenue from participation, and if, as will be the case, they are to take express statutory powers to control the development, destination and rate of depletion of the oil? What is in it for the taxpayer?
Mr. Lever: We want 51 per cent. participation in order to achieve for the British people the title to a great part of the oil itself and so that it may be at the disposal of the British National Oil Corporation for such national purposes as we think desirable and for such developments of the corporation as well appear appropriate when the oil is flowing.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. I would like to call everyone who wishes to ask a question on this topic, but it is a matter for debate and we must move on to the next business.
Mr. Skinner: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will recall that I raised some time ago the question of the appearance here of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. Today his presence has been welcomed and he has answered at least one Question, but the matter has not been satisfactorily or completely resolved. I do not expect my right hon. Friend to be here as often as I am, but I expect him to be present to answer Questions not on an ad hoc basis but according to a system which is similar in content, perhaps if not in time, to that of many other Ministers who have to present themselves at that Dispatch Box. We want a properly regulated system in which the Chancellor, with his new-found responsibilities, as described in a Written Answer to me today by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, is to answer on a proper and regular basis.
Mr. Lever: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Perhaps I may be permitted to point out, or to invite you to

1343
point out, that this is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and that it is not a decision for me. However, it follows automatically from the Written Answer referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover that I shall be available to Members who desire to question me on my duties.
Mr. Speaker: I was about to say that for once—and not necessarily for the last time—I had sympathy for the point of view expressed by the hon. Member for Bolsover—
Mr. Skinner: I can manage with or without it.
Mr. Speaker: So far as my rulings are concerned, I can manage without the hon. Member's. As the Chancellor of the Duchy has pointed out, this is a matter of ministerial responsibility. It is not a matter for the Chair but one which must be arranged by the Head of the Government, the Leader of the House and the usual channels. It is not a matter for me.
Rev. Ian Paisley: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Are you saying that if the Prime Minister decided that his Ministers should not answer Questions, the House would have no power over them?
Mr. Speaker: There is already a power of transfer of the right to answer, over which the Chair has no control. It is perfectly possible, for example, for the Secretary of State for Energy to say, if a Question is addressed to him, that he has asked the Chancellor of the Duchy to reply, and the latter, in replying, would say, "By leave, I will answer this Question," or "I have been asked to answer this Question." That is a practice over which the Chair has absolutely no control.

BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTIONS FOR FRIDAY 7TH MARCH
Members successful in the Ballot were:
Mr. Ernest G. Perry.
Mr. Marcus Fox.
Mr. Roger Moate.

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS
Ordered,
That the Fishing Vessels (Acquisition and Improvement) (Grants) (Amendment) Scheme 1975 be referred to a Standing Committee on Statutory Instruments.—[Mr. Harper.]

LIFE INSURANCE (INTERESTS ON BENEFITS) BILL
3.51 p.m.
Mr. Russell Kerr: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require the payment of interest on delayed payments of life insurance benefits.
Although not of earth-shattering importance, this Bill will, I believe, correct an existing anomaly which arises from time to time in life insurance. At present, when a policy holder dies or when the life on which the insurance policy is based comes to an end, the beneficiary, often a widow in rather straitened circumstances, frequently needs every penny available, since the capital sum due to her under the policy will most likely be much reduced in value as a result of inflation.
The beneficiary is dependent upon the insurance company in the matter of how soon he or she will be paid out after the insurance claim is made. No doubt in the majority of cases there is no particular delay in meeting a claim and the widow goes off thankful that her widowhood has been taken into account by her dear departed spouse, albeit on a scale considerably less in most cases than originally contemplated. But this is a somewhat idealised version of what happens when we come down to concerted examples. What if her husband, though suitably aware of his moral obligations in the event of his wife becoming his widow, happens to be rather untidy in his habits, does not place valuable documents such as life assurance policies in safe places and, as a result, the policy about which he has talked to his wife over the years is nowhere to be found when he dies? What if the policy is stolen or "tidied up" so that it disappears from sight or is lost for a lengthy period?
Or, what about the situation, where, though her husband was careful in his habits, unfortunately he employed as his legal adviser a man who was idle and incompetent and who, far from offering aid and comfort to his client's widow, neglected even to advise her that she should promptly claim on the life assurance policy referred to in the will? As a result, the widow would forgo a considerable
1346
amount of interest—close to 1 per cent. a month nowadays or, say, £500 per annum on a £5,000 policy—which she may well need in the years ahead.
There is the case where husband and wife do not exchange family information of this kind, or where the wife leaves "all that" to her husband. In those circumstances she may well be unaware that a policy is available to be claimed upon, and she may, consequently, overlook the matter, especially if the husband did not discuss his will with her before he died.
There can be a number of circumstances in which substantial delay occurs in paying out a claim. It is sometimes due to the dilatoriness, or worse, of the insurance company, and sometimes to other reasons of the kind I have mentioned.
The important thing about delay, however brought about, is that what may be a large sum of money is left unclaimed in the coffers of the insurance company and, one way or another, earns interest for the company. I believe that interest on this sum of money should accrue to the benefit of the beneficiary and not to the company if delay occurs.
My Bill specifies that the company paying out has one clear calendar month after the death of the policyholder to complete the documentation that must accompany the paying out of an insurance policy but, from then onwards, the capital sum insured will automatically be enhanced by the payment of compound interest at current Bank Rate on the policy, until it is finally cleared.
The basic purpose of the Bill is to avoid a serious loss of money to the beneficiary if any delay should occur, for whatever reason, in the discharge of the policy. At the same time, the Bill removes from the insurance company any temptation to delay payment on the policy so as to help the funds of the company at the expense of the beneficiary.
Some hon. Members may say that this kind of protection should not be necessary, that people should be able to insist on their rights without being mollycoddled by the law. If any hon. Members incline to this view, may I remind them that the shock produced by the death of a loved one can, in some cases, be quite traumatic and some people emphatically

1347
do need protection of the kind indicated in the Bill at such a time.
It is regrettable that the astronomic interest rates applicable today should account in some measure for the need for this Bill. But whatever level they reach, up or down, does not destroy the principle embodied in my Bill, that delay in the paying out of a life assurance policy should not be to the financial disadvantage of the beneficiary once the first month after death has passed.
I am confident that the overwhelming majority of hon. Members in all parts of the House will be in sympathy with the objects of the Bill and I therefore commend it warmly to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Russell Kerr, Mr. Ron Thomas, Miss Jo Richardson, Mr. Ian Mikardo, Mr. Roy Hughes, Mr. John Lee, Mr. Ioan Evans, Mr. John Ovenden, Mr. Bob Cryer, Mr. Ray Carter and Mr. Ernest G. Perry.

LIFE INSURANCE (INTERESTS ON BENEFITS) BILL
  LIFE INSURANCE (INTERESTS ON BENEFITS)
  Mr. Russell Kerr accordingly presented a Bill to require the payment of interest on delayed payments of life insurance benefits: and the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 18th April and to be printed. [Bill 89.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  COAL INDUSTRY BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  3.59 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Energy (Mr. Eric G. Varley): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  This is the first Coal Industry Bill we have had since 1972. The purpose of that Bill was to clear up the mess after the first of the two coal strikes which marred the last period of office of the Conservative Party.
  This is a much smaller Bill. But let no one doubt its significance. It ushers in what we look forward to as a new future of harmony, security and prosperity in the coal industry after these recent turbulent and unhappy years. The past 12 months have seen a determination by Government, unions and the National Coal Board to co-operate in ensuring that the coal industry shall be able to live up to its new opportunities and its new place in the energy scene.
  This is the first major debate in the House on coal since the Conservative Party left office. There has been no need for one before. There has been no crisis, no drama, and only intermittent excitement. We ended the coal strike in our first few days of office.
  Then I moved speedily to set up the tripartite examination by Government, unions and the National Coal Board into the future of the industry, which we promised in our February election manifesto. That tripartite examination reported well within the three month timetable we had allotted, and I was able to present the interim report to Parliament last June and to enlarge upon it at the NUM Conference in Llandudno in July. The relations between this Government and the unions have been warm and cordial.
  The interim report signified agreement to an extra £600 million investment in the coal industry over the next 10 years. It also endorsed the foreshadowed compensation scheme for sufferers from pneumoconiosis and their widows. We had been faced with the squalid and degrading prospect of scarred and battered

  1349
  men having to fight their way through the courts for compensation which it might have taken them years to win, years which many simply did not have ahead of them. We were not prepared to suffer such a sorry spectacle and, therefore, readily backed the compensation scheme, to the tune of £100 million.
  Clause 1 of this Bill will empower me to make the necessary grant to the National Coal Board for that purpose. I think it is one of the noblest clauses ever to be embodied in a parliamentary Bill. The scheme is well under way. More than 55,000 claims have already been received. More than 20,000 claims have been checked and offers of settlement made. Benefit has already been paid in more than 12,000 cases.
  Assuming that the House gives the Bill a Second Reading, I intend to commence making grants to the National Coal Board in accordance with Clause 1. I am sure the House will agree that it is right that the Government should start to honour their commitment to contribute £100 million just as soon as practicable. The Winter Supplementary Estimates provided for grants of up to £55 million to be made during this financial year.
  The final report of the tripartite examination was published last November and set the seal on a period in which we also decided to go ahead with the exploitation of the massive new coal find at Selby, subject to the necessary planning approval. During these months I was also able to announce that the first coaifired power station for many years would be built at Drax.
  Since then we have had the prolonged negotiations on the miners' pay claim that ended successfully last week. Before anybody indulges in any destructive comments about that pay settlement and its cost, it is necessary to point out that it is not as costly as the £1,100 million provided by the Coal Industry Bill 1972 for, among other purposes, setting right the National Coal Board's finances after the pit strike of the previous winter.
  Anyone who is critical of this settlement should also tell us whether it is more costly than the hundreds of millions of pounds which last winter's strike cost, not only in lost production for the country but in the great damage it did to the industry. We all know that it
  1350
  left the Conservative Party with an incomes policy that was shattered beyond repair. And before anybody starts to decry the social contract he had better tell us what he would put in its place.
  The hon. Member who is to speak for the Opposition—the hon. Member for New Forest (Mr. McNair-Wilson)—will doubtless have had his attention drawn to recent statements by his right hon. Friend the Deputy Leader of the Opposition and his right hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior), both of whom over the last few days have publicly accepted the settlement.
  As the right hon. Member for Lowestoft put it on the radio last Friday,
  "I don't think that we"
  —that is, the Opposition—
  "could have done anything other than what has happened."
  Nor do we make any bones about the necessary price increases. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and I have during the past year repeatedly told the House how essential it is to get realistic pricing of energy both in the interests of the proper financing of the nationalised industries and in the cause of energy conservation.
  Mr. Michael Alison: The right hon. Gentleman is making some fascinating, rather challenging and coat-trailing remarks about the social contract. I am not quite clear about whether the settlement to which he has referred is or is not within the social contract. Is it clearly and explicitly within the guidelines?
  Mr. Varley: I thought that that question would be asked. I strongly support the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment yesterday
  "that the miners' settlement was a good one for the miners, the industry and, above all, for the country.—[Official Report, 18th Feb., 1975; Vol. 886, c. 1087.]
  Sir Paul Bryan: That is no answer. It is not within the guidelines.
  Mr. Varley: I hope that before Conservative Members get too excited they will pay tribute to the fact that restructuring has taken place in the industry and that there is now a greater differential between those underground and those on the surface. It is still necessary that we

  1351
  get men to go on to the coalface and probably spend 40 years of their life there. It is therefore right that there should have been an element of restructuring.
  I was saying that we make no bones and offer no excuses about the necessary price increases. Over the last 11½ months we have constantly made it clear that we must have proper and realistic pricing within the nationalised industries in the interests of the industries themselves and in the cause of energy conservation.
  As the right hon. Member for Wanstead and Woodford, (Mr. Jenkin) so aptly put it in the House last March, quoting a previous utterance by Lord Barber, as he now is:
  "at a time of the most acute energy shortage .. it is anomalous … that we are subsidising coal and electricity prices at a mounting rate." [Official Report, 13th March 1974; Vol. 870, c. 325.]
  We can hope, therefore, that the atmosphere of conflict in the coal industry is being replaced by a determination to achieve genuine co-operation. This has been publicly accepted and demonstrated by the joint efforts of Sir Derek Ezra and the miners' leaders to boost coal, its market and its output. The after-effects of the overtime ban and the strike have almost gone. Since October there have been only two weeks—Christmas and the New Year—when the national average output per manshift was below 45 cwt. In the six months from April to September it exceeded 45 cwt on only four occasions.
  After years of decline, the industry's manpower is rising again. For the first time in more than 10 years recruitment is more than replacing the number of men leaving the industry. It is likely that for the year ending next month the manpower in the pits will be about 4,600 up. Last year recruitment was little more than half what the NCB needed if targets were to be met. This year recruitment is running at a rate well above the required average.
  The rest of the Bill after Clause 1 is designed to remove certain impediments to achieving further increased output. It is concerned with various measures to ease the way for the deep-mined and opencast coal developments which are urgently necessary. I want to stress that the Government have no wish to override the
  1352
  rights of the individual and environmental interests.
  Following publication of the final report on the coal industry examination, my Department has had informal consultations with local authority, land-owning and environmental interests. The views they expressed have been most helpful to us, and I think we have been able to set at rest a good many of the fears aroused by some misconceptions of the proposals.
  If I might deal first with deep-mined coal, Clauses 2 and 3 are intended to remedy what might be termed legal technicalities that could put obstacles in the way of much needed developments. I take first Clause 2. The present rights of the NCB—and those enjoyed by its predecessors—to withdraw support and let down the surface when extracting coal are contained for the most part in Schedule 2 to the Coal Act 1938. As the House well knows, when coal is extracted the land directly above it often subsides. But the adjacent land beyond the vertical limits of the coal which is being worked may also be affected.
  The board has always believed that those rights permitted it to withdraw that "lateral" support from adjacent land. Recently, however, doubts have been cast on this interpretation and it seemed wise to resolve them. Clause 2 seeks to do this, and to put the matter straight by giving the Board a new general right to withdraw support from any land whether the coal concerned lies under that land or under adjacent land.
  Mr. T. H. H. Skeet: I understand that the right hon. Gentleman is negotiating with the industry about a revised compensation code? What stage has the negotiation reached?
  Mr. Varley: I am coming to that matter. I shall mention it in remarks that I have to make in explaining other clauses.
  The purpose is simply to protect the boundaries of the Board's operations, which are changing from day to day, from threats of legal action arising from uncertainty about its powers under the 1938 Act. In practice, the effect of the clause will be minimal. Where the Board has not already done so, the clause requires it to publish, in newspapers circulating in

  1353
  the district, advance notice of its intention to withdraw support, giving full details of the areas likely to be affected. And it must pay proper compensation or rectify any damage done.
  Mr. Alison: The right hon. Gentleman is probably referring to Schedule 1 when he talks about paying compensation or rectifying any damage done. There seems to be uncertainty in the schedule about whether the Board intends and will insist that plans for new buildings should be submitted to it in advance so that it can prescribe special provisions in the structural details of the building and compensate the constructors for the extra input required. Is it the Board's purpose that that should occur, or does it intend to let the building settle and then pay compensation for the damage?
  Mr. Varley: It could be done either way. Those who have it in mind to erect buildings can ask the Board about its future developments and receive from or discuss with the Board suggestions about reinforcing the structure. If the Board agrees that it would be wise that there should be some reinforcing, it could pay for the cost of the extra reinforcement. If it says that it is not necessary and subsequently damage occurs, compensation will be paid in the normal way. I know that the hon. Gentleman has an interest in this matter because he represents an area in which Selby will be developed and I dare say that he will deal with it in Committee.
  Mr. Adam Butler: Is there any advance under the Bill in the compensation payable under the 1957 Act?
  Mr. Varley: There are some amendments in that respect and I shall deal with them when I reach the question of land as it affects opencast workings.
  Clause 3 of the Bill deals with an exceedingly complex matter—retained copyhold interests. Copyhold was a form of feudal land tenure granted by the lord of the manor. Under this, the lord retained ownership of any minerals while the copyhold tenant had possession of them. This meant that the coal could not be worked without the tenant's consent. That situation was continued when the ownership of the coal was vested in
  1354
  the National Coal Board by the Coal Industry Nationalisation Act 1946.
  Therefore, although the Board owns the coal under land subject to these retained interests, it cannot work it without the consent of the owner of the interests or alternatively securing an order from the courts under the Mines (Working Facilities) Act 1966. This is an anomalous situation compared with the generality of land, where the Board has full rights to work the coal—subject to conditions laid down in any inherited leases and so on.
  The Board is able to overcome the copyhold obstacle in its old-established coalfields where most of the retained interests were registered in 1938, when coal reserves were first nationalised. But in areas remote from the then known coal reserves they are difficult, if not impossible, to track down and identify with any certainty. If the Board had to pursue the matter through the courts this could cause delays which are quite unacceptable, for example, when the development of so important a project as Selby could be at risk.
  Clause 3 therefore gives the Board the right to work coal under land subject to retained copyhold interests. It applies in England and Wales but not to Scotland, where this system of tenure was not used. The NCB must publish notice of its intention to exercise this new right and pay compensation for it. In the event of dispute, the amount is to be settled by the Lands Tribunal.
  Nothing in either Clause 2 or 3 interferes with established planning procedures. The development at Selby is subject to normal planning procedure.
  I now come to Clauses 4 to 6. In the coal industry examination the mining unions joined fully with the Government in endorsing the Board's plan to increase opencast output by 50 per cent. from 10 million to 15 million tons a year over the next three years. But this necessary expansion cannot be assured under present arrangements because of difficulty and uncertainty in securing access to sites.
  In most cases the Board is able to buy the land or negotiate the necessary rights with the owners. But perhaps one of the landowners concerned will seek a quite unreasonable price or try to impose

  1355
  unreasonable conditions, and this can frustrate the whole scheme. This uncertainty makes nonsense of the sensible planning of a production programme, and the Board requires the backing of additional powers which, subject to appropriate safeguards, it can use in the last resort. Clause 4 therefore stores the power originally provided by the Opencast Coal Act 1958 to make compulsory rights orders. Such orders will continue to be subject to the confirmation of the Secretary of State which, I assure the House, would not be lightly given, and, just as important, the provisions of the 1958 Act relating to compensation will continue.
  Clause 4 provides for the maximum duration of compulsory rights orders to be increased to 20 years. I would emphasise that this is maximum duration. It does not mean that all sites will be occupied for this length of time. But some sites are now much larger than was the case in 1958 and can be worked to greater depths.
  Then we must allow five years for the full process of restoration and return to full productive fertility. Enough time must therefore be allowed for all these factors in the exceptional case. The average time of occupation will be very much shorter, and even on a large site I know it would be the Board's aim where possible to operate so that parts of the site could be restored and released propressively as the work proceeded.
  Another problem in connection with site authorisation is dealt with by Clause 5. In many cases a site needed for opencast working is traversed by footpaths which need to be temporarily suspended or—in effect—diverted since, where there is a need, the Board must provide an alternative way. Then the original route is reinstituted when the works are finished and the site restored to normal use. That is what happens where footpaths have to be suspended or diverted. The procedure for these temporary suspensions is separate and different from that for authorisation to work an opencast site or, indeed, from that used for the permanent suspension of a footpath for other purposes.
  The aim of Clause 5 is to provide a straightforward procedure which minimises unnecessary delay in deciding an
  1356
  application while preserving full opportunity for those concerned to make their views known and have them taken properly into account. The new procedure is similar to and is designed to operate alongside, and in combination with, the existing procedure for dealing with applications for authorisation to work opencast sites.
  Clause 6 will improve the compensation available to the farmers against whom a compulsory rights order for the temporary use of their land may be made. After the site has been worked, the restoration process takes five years; a new drainage system is installed and the land is fertilised and cultivated. When handed back to the farmer, it is virtually new land. The new compensation proposed in Clause 6 is designed to help the farmer through the period while he is getting to know the new characteristics of the land and learning how to get the best out of it.
  The remaining clauses and the schedules are consequential and spell out the details of these proposals.
  Mr. David Watkins: In effect, what my right hon. Friend has said in relation to the very important proposals about opencasting is that local authority planning procedures and planning permission processes are to be bypassed. Will he comment on that matter?
  Mr. Varley: They will certainly be shortened—I want to make that absolutely plain—because there have been experiences in the past of unnecessary delays in the NCB getting access to sites. The new era of coal means that we must have a proper working programme for increasing opencast production, as I have said, from 10 million to 15 million tons a year. That is widely accepted by those working in the industry. As I thought I had indicated, there is provision for appeal to the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State can exercise his powers and order a public inquiry if he deems it necessary. I hope that that answers the point raised by my hon. Friend.
  Some of these matters, although I know that they are very large issues in some areas of the country, may be regarded as minor proposals—"minor" in the sense of bringing them before the House. But they concern an industry which has been through such very great drama so

  1357
  often and so recently. For myself, I believe that it is healthy that the coal industry should now get down to a workaday routine. The Government's aim is to keep it out of the headlines and in full production. It is in that spirit that I commend the Bill to the House.
  4.24 p.m.
  Mr. Patrick McNair-Wilson: The Secretary of State need have no fears about my indulging in any attacks upon the wage award made to the mining industry. I am content, for the time being, to leave it to the Government and the National Coal Board to resolve that matter. But the right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right when he says that the Bill appears against the background of an industry which has emerged from real difficulties in the recent past.
  Of course, the Bill embodies many of the recommendations which were set out in the tri-partite report on the industry—namely, it seeks to deal with the problem of the hazards to health and the rest, to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred, and to provide better access to resources for the industry.
  We have to regard this debate against the background of a continuing energy crisis. It is a crisis which is as much, perhaps more, economic than it is volumetric. The coal industry's fortunes have fluctuated very considerably ever since certainly I have been concerned with this subject in the House. Those who have studied the industry remember very well how the desire to flood the markets of the Western world with cheap oil began to eat into the fortunes of the coal industry. It certainly appeared to all Governments at that time, that oil provided the answer to many of our economic ills. The coal industry, for reasons which are now old history, was allowed to contract and to become dangerously small. As a result, markets for that industry were lost—some of which will never ever come back again. Indeed, it is fair to say that without the electricity generating market, the industry's fortunes would have been even more gloomy than they are already.
  I remember very well winding up a debate for the Opposition side of the House on the Coal Act 1965, which was the Act which closed down so many areas of coal mining in this country. It was, of course, legislation brought forward by
  1358
  the right hon. Gentleman's predecessors. It was then that we moved away from the target figure, which was almost sacrosanct to many, of 200 million tons down to the now hard-to-believe 120 million tons. I am advised that we shall be lucky if we miss that by no more than 5 million tons this March. But that hard-to-achieve figure is very much lower than the target figure of the past.
  Many hon. Members on both sides of the House warned in those days about the danger of putting all the eggs in the one basket and about the danger of the effect on the security of this country of letting this industry sink.
  Therefore, I regard this piece of legislation and, indeed, the new feeling of confidence which I detect in the industry, as putting the coal industry back where it was 30 years ago—back where it was, perhaps, at the end of the war. Once again the cry now is for production and more production. That is something which I, certainly, have not previously heard since I have been debating this subject in the House.
  It is not at all surprising to me that those who are engaged in the industry, those spending their lives in one of the most hazardous occupations in this country, should be demanding better bay and better general conditions. All that I am concerned about is that when we do manage to create an industry with high morale, we also manage to meet the essential production which this industry must provide for Britain's economic survival.
  I want to see the real strength of machines added to the strength of the muscle of the miner.
  Admittedly, there have been false dawns in this respect in the past. We have all heard of various devices which were to rip coal out of the seams of this country and to provide the answer. We shall not go into the history of Bevercotes. Those familiar with the industry will perhaps know the over-ambitious plans put forward there, and the Colins robot miner that was going to get down to those narrow seams. I understand that another robot miner is now being considered. My right hon. Friends and, indeed, the Secretary of State, were among the first to see the ROLF remotely operated long-wall face when we came to the House in 1964. Now we hear of less sophisticated but

  1359
  even more important automated ways of raising coal.
  I am absolutely convinced that the experience of all these various pieces of technology will bear fruit and is, indeed, bearing fruit, and that a new mechanical age of coal cutting is at hand, every bit as important as the remote radio-controlled conveyor and the self-advancing roof supports. This is absolutely right. Capital investment is dramatically increasing, with about £1,400 million being spent over the next 10 years. A new era is dawning, which I welcome, because coal and oil still carry the base load of our energy requirements.
  The Bill aims to accomplish a number of objects. It aims to make provision for those who, through no fault of their own, have had their health damaged or ruined by working in this industry. The Bill also provides opportunities for us to exploit what will be the biggest mine in this country, namely the Selby coalfield, which has a potential of about 2,000 million tons in resources under the ground. In the early stages we are talking about the Barnsley scheme, which has 500 million to 800 million tons in all. With a production of 10 million tons a year, that area is as significant as some of the major liquid hydrocarbon finds in the North Sea. This legislation will enable the NCB to recover that coal.
  The right hon. Gentleman mentioned Clause 1, which deals with the compensation scheme. Although that is a major step forward, the Opposition have misgivings that not every sufferer or sufferer's widow will benefit as much as they should because of various time barriers which exist. We are now talking about three distinct groups of beneficiaries under the pneumoconiosis scheme. There are 39,500 pneumoconiotics. There are two groups of widows—those whose husbands died between January 1970 and October 1974, and those whose husbands died before 1970. The distinction between the two groups exists for a simple and real reason. Records covering many of those individuals no longer exist because, after a five-year lapse, they were destroyed. We must look again at that problem in Committee.
  There is a serious gap in the provisions of the Bill for the 8,000 to 10,000
  1360
  people who commuted their rights before 1948 for what may in many cases have been little more than a few hundred pounds and who are now totally excluded from the new scheme since their rights have been removed. The Opposition wish to look at that matter seriously.
  The Secretary of State explained that the £100 million writen into the Bill would perhaps not be sufficient. The NCB will make a contribution. However, we must realise that we have a moral responsibility—I put it no higher—to make up the difference to those who have commuted their rights. The Minister will be able to ascertain that figure. Those people form a hardship group which should receive additional support.
  The Secretary of State will be aware of the report in The Guardian on 17th February in an article headed,
  "Cancer and arthritis, the price the miners pay".
  The article said:
  "Two new published surveys have highlighted the high price of coal in human terms. A study in The Lancet says that Lancashire miners with pneumoconiosis show an incidence of lung cancer much higher than that of the general population. And an Arthritis and Rheumatism Council booklet puts miners high in the back-pain league table.
  The Lancashire figures contradict a long-held belief based on surveys carried out by the National Coal Board and independent authorities largely in Welsh mines, which showed no apparent, additional cancer risk for miners.
  The new survey carried out by Doctor Francis Mooney at St. Helens Hospital, Lancashire, says that of 300 miners who had pneumoconiosis and have died since 1967, 14 per cent. had lung cancer compared with an average for the whole of the area's population of around 9 per cent."
  Mr. Alexander Wilson: Before the hon. Gentleman leaves that point, I should like his comments on the two surveys which were made in the mid-1950s in relation to the incidence of bronchitis amongst mine workers. I put a political point straight to him. If he now appears to be sympathetic to the higher incidence of cancer in miners who suffered from pneumoconiosis, why did not the Conservative Government take action on the 1956 Report which showed a higher incidence of bronchitis amongst miners suffering from pneumoconiosis? Why did not the Conservative Government, who were in power longer than this Government have been, take that into account

  1361
  and put bronchitis on the schedule industrial diseases?
  Mr. McNair-Wilson: I respect the views of the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Wilson). I know that he is an expert on the subject. I take his point. All Governments must take an element of blame. However, we must look forward and recognise that new research will throw up worrying situations and that it is for Parliament to alleviate them.
  The right hon. Gentleman described Clause 2 in some detail. I have always thought that the best description of coal mining was trying to get the jam out of the sponge cake. It is not easy because the two sides, the roof and the floor, come together. Since the support referred to in the Bill is the coal in the seam, and since the rock tends to fall into the open space, there is subsidence. The right hon. Gentleman referred to lateral support. He will also know that the phenomenon which causes subsidence is the result of lateral draw—the filling up of this gap and the pulling in of the land on either side.
  I understand that the geological concept indicates that one should regard 35 degrees as an angle arising from the coal working out to the surface which provides the limits at which lateral draw will take place. That depends to a considerable extent on the depths at which mining is taking place. If the depth is different, the angle can also be different. In Committee, we shall wish to be certain that the effects of lateral draw do not create situations in which the Bill will not provide the necessary compensation and other requirements which should be present.
  The right hon. Gentleman will know that there has been considerable concern in Yorkshire about the work that will take place in this coalfield, not because people in Yorkshire are strangers to coal mining but because sewers and other public works might be severely damaged. The right hon. Gentleman will have seen many Press reports of that concern. For instance, he will have seen that worry was expressed by many members of the Yorkshire Water Authority that the damage to sewers and drainage would be considerable. He has probably seen the report in the Yorkshire Post on 31st January which, referring to the situation, also
  1362
  referred to a meeting which had taken place about Selby coalfield. It said:
  "As reported in the Yorkshire Post on Tuesday, sewers could collapse as a result of the mining, but the meeting agreed that measures must be taken by the NCB to prevent any damage.
  Under the agreement the NCB must supply information on its mining operations to the water authority in order to see any deterioration on land drainage because of mining."
  I am delighted to see that the NCB will provide information to the water authority. It is also desperately important that the maximum amount of information should be supplied to the people in the area, rather than that no notice period be given between the decision to start working and the time that it might begin, as provided in the Bill. I also feel that, information being so desperately important in this situation, we must ensure that the widest coverage exists in all the local Press and not, as I think it says in Clause 2, just in one or two local newspapers. I do not wish to make too much of this point, but it is extremely relevant.
  Recently, there was a report by some students from Aberdeen University pointing out that there are some 33,000 old working in the country which are totally uncharted. We may well hear of examples—and I have no doubt that we shall in Committee—where, as a result of old workings, real subsidence has occurred. For many years I worked in South Wales, in the Swansea Valley, and I am very familiar with the situation.
  Clause 3, dealing with copyhold rights, again is very important to this coalfield. About 8¼ per cent. of Selby is in a situation where these rights could apply. The rights themselves are no longer being granted. As the Secretary of State said, they stopped in 1926. But the Bill describes the situation whereby a copyholder will relinquish his rights on the basis of a willing grantor and a willing grantee. Those words are imprecise. The alternative is compensation based on 1p—i.e. one new penny—per ton of estimated coal. When we consider the clause in Committee, we shall want to look at that definition in rather more detail.
  The opencast argument is well known to us all. As the Secretary of State said, there is a need for increased production. We want it up by 5 million tons. That means that about another 20 sites—from

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  50 to 70—will be needed to produce this figure.
  When opencast coal is worked, it produces necessarily a great scar on the land. There are environmentalists who put amenity ahead of energy. This is a balance which has to be struck. It is a balance which also applies to the use of land for agricultural purposes, and the right hon. Gentleman will be aware that the National Farmers' Union, especially the Morpeth Branch in Northumberland, is concerned about this problem and has registered unhappiness about existing plans there. There are examples of animals suffering from scouring, which is dust in the intestines, which can have a serious effect on herds. The effect upon farming land of opencast mining is a matter that we must look at carefully when we consider this clause in Committee.
  The future for the coal industry is brighter than it has been for a very long time. The export possibilities for the industry long term are very good. There will be a great market for power station coal in the EEC. Provided that we can get production to the right level, I believe that the industry will show itself to be every bit as important as anything which is happening today in the North Sea.
  It was the Prime Minister who said that Britain was made of coal. He is not the first politician to make that comment, of course. What is more, that in itself is not the complete answer. But I believe that, if this legislation is able somehow to alleviate the hardship and suffering of those who have had to give their health in the interests of everyone in the country, be they domestic consumers or industry, my right hon. Friends and I will welcome it. Equally, if the legislation can assist Britain in the urgent quest to make the country independent of imported energy, subject to the proper scrutiny, the Opposition will support it.
  4.44 p.m.
  Mr. Alexander Wilson: First, may I ask the hon. Member for New Forest (Mr. McNair-Wilson) to ponder at least one question? We all hope that this Bill will help the coal industry and help Britain. However, when we talk about more mechanisation in the mines, we have also to consider one other factor. I have said this often in the House,
  1364
  and hundreds of hon. Members representing mining constituencies have said it before me. We cannot get coal without the miners and, when we consider the extra incidence of mechanisation in the pits, we have also to look at the resulting dust hazards. This, for me, is the main part of the Bill.
  Dust hazards used to be considered reasonably safe if the content was 850 particles per cubic centimetre. Today, with different types of mechanisation, we are producing between 2,000 and 2,500 particles per cubic centimetre. That is not a state of affairs in the mining industry which any hon. Member will want to see continue.
  We must ask the Government to look very seriously again at the health of the miner, not merely waiting and then having to plead and fight for compensation after a man has contracted what is considered to be an incurable disease.
  For more than 20 years, I have been working for miners who have contracted pneumoconiosis, and I have had to fight for justice for their widows and dependants all that time. If ever I was proud of having a Labour Government, it is today when they introduce this Bill providing the basis for giving justice to men who should have had justice many years ago.
  I have seen young men dying a slow painful death from silicosis, especially in South Wales, with no compensation other than two or three measly bob a week. I have seen wives housebound because their men were literally bedridden, with oxygen cylinders at their bedsides, gasping for every breath, fighting a losing battle against pneumoconiosis and knowing that at the end of the day poverty would come, not to speak of the deaths of their husbands.
  Although I welcome the Bill, it contains two distinct anomalies. The hon. Member for New Forest referred to one of them when he spoke about the commuted cases under the old Workmen's Compensation Act—the pre-1948 cases. The Government should extend the scope of the Bill. Already we know that the £100 million allotted to the pneumoconiosis benefit scheme will not be sufficient for the estimated number who will benefit under the scheme already drawn up by the National Coal Board and the NUM

  1365
  and accepted by the Government. Those persons who were forced to commute their measly two or three shillings a week were offered £200 or perhaps £300. I estimate—and I am open to correction because I do not want to overstate the case—that there are still betweeen 8,000 and 10,000 such people in this country. By coercion or by pressure they relinquished their legal right to compensation. I believe that a Labour Government have a moral duty, if not a legal duty, to do something about the extension of the financial provisions contained in the Bill to take care of the pre-1948 commuted cases.
  Mr. Richard Kelley: Besides the people who commuted their claims under the old workmen's compensation legislation, there were two cases of which I am aware—I had something to do with one of them—in which common law damages were awarded out of court. The case for which I had a responsibility was settled for a meagre sum, bearing in mind the substantial degree of disablement. That sum was accepted because of the almost impossible legal tangle in which the man found himself and the difficulties that would have ensued if he had tried to establish his claim in court. I hope that people who were in a similar position will not be prevented from obtaining an award under the scheme to which my hon. Friend is referring.
  Mr. Wilson: My hon. Friend has probably had more experience in the industry than myself and perhaps greater experience of fighting for those in the industry. I accept his proposition and I hope that the Government accept it as well.
  Apart from the activities of the famous or infamous indemnity societies in coercing or badgering people to accept a commutation of their compensation after men were certified as unfit, the men concerned were, in fact, suspended from the industry. The moment that they were certified they were suspended. That carried with it not just the meagre sum offered by the indemnity societies but, in most cases, almost immediate homelessness. That was because they were living in colliery houses. There was no nationalisation then. When a miner could not work,
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  the coal owners had no hesitation in putting him out of the industry and out of his home. We must look back in order that we may go forward.
  Even if those who were turned out of the industry were able to continue in other work because they did not suffer the most serious effects of pneumoconiosis, jobs were so scarce in the mining areas that they were virtually at the door of the poorhouse whenever they contracted the disease. I am not putting it too strongly when I say that they were faced with uncertainty about their housing because of the conditions which were laid down in relation to employment in the coal industry. Continuity was the issue that was thrown at the men and women in the industry in those days. There had to be continuity of employment. The disease that they contracted by virtue of their work for the owners was the reason for which they lost their homes. They could not possibly get another job in the mining areas.
  In The Guardian of Tuesday of this week there is the example of a Mr. Griffiths, who is now 67 years of age. He worked in the pits for 25 years. On being diagnosed as pneumoconiotic, he lost his job in 1948. After being out of work for a year he commuted his weekly pension of 32 shillings for a lump sum of £375. If he had not commuted his pension and if he were allowed to participate in the Government's scheme I estimate that he would receive £6,000.
  The question that the Government must ask themselves is why a man in Mr. Griffiths' position should not get that sort of money. Let the Government take into account the circumstances which governed his life at that time. All the commuted cases were faced with uncertainty. The lump sums given by the indemnity societies were very small and reflected only in a small part the loss of earnings as a result of the certification of pneumoconiosis. They did not include and could not include—and the money that is allowed now could not include—compensation for the pain and suffering and the loss of amenities that those concerned had to suffer because of the contraction of pneumoconiosis. I ask the Government to consider seriously the position as I have tried to explain it. I believe that I have dealt with a serious

  1367
  anomaly in the Bill. I hope sincerely that we shall be able to do something about it in Committee if my right hon. Friend is not prepared to make a concession at this stage.
  Mr. James Sillars: Would it not be fair to say that it is not just an anomaly in the Bill but an anomaly in the agreement made between the NUM and the NCB on 13th September 1974? As well as blaming the Government, I believe that we should direct a fair degree of criticism to the other two parts of the tripartite agreement.
  Mr. Wilson: No matter what percentage of blame is apportioned to each party, my job—and I believe that I am doing it—is to get extra money for those who are suffering. The blame can be divided among any of the parties concerned, but all I want is justice for every one of the commuted cases not included in the Bill.
  I adopt the phrase used by the hon. Member for New Forest, who spoke from the Opposition Front Bench. Let us look forward and let us ask the Government to commit themselves to giving justice to the commuted cases. As I have said, I estimate that there are about 8,000 to 10,000 such cases.
  Next, I deal with the pre-1970 widows. I think that the sum being offered to them is even worse than that which was offered under the old indemnity society rules. It is a disgrace and it cannot be justified morally by the Government. It can be justified only in the sense that red tape is responsible. It seems that the National Coal Board and the Department of Health and Social Security do not have the necessary records previous to 1970. In my opinion, that is the only thing that is holding up justice for the widows and dependants. When the scheme was devised by the three parties, the political situation was uncertain. It was not uncertain in my eyes because I knew that a Labour Government would be elected.
  Mr. Cyril Smith: What the hon. Gentleman was not sure about was when that would take place.
  Mr. Wilson: The fact is that we are back. That proves that I was right. The political situation was uncertain, hence the hasty drawing up of the agreement and
  1368
  the implementation of the scheme. It was agreed that there should be a lump sum payment to pre-1970 widows of £300 provided that it could be proved that their husbands had died from pneumoconiosis. In other cases, the sum was £150. I want the payments to these widows considerably increased.
  The Minister has ample scope under the Bill to double the £100 million. I hope that I shall not be told that we cannot afford it in present economic circumstances. He could get the other £100 million by clearing Holy Loch of Polaris submarines. The Explanatory Memorandum says that Clause 1
  "gives power to the Secretary of State to make grants to the National Coal Board (not exceeding £100 million) … (or any variation of that scheme approved by the Secretary of State with Treasury consent).
  There is nothing there to prevent my right hon. Friend from making the two concessions for which I have asked.
  The mining industry and the unions need this compensation. The men and women to whom I pay homage have waited too long for this measure. This essential financial support will provide a base for the expansion of the industry. This has been forced upon the House now that it has accepted that coal is and will remain for a long time our main fuel. The Bill gives a large measure of justice to miners and their families. This is one of the truly Socialist Bills presented to the House. On behalf of the Miners' Group I welcome it, but I hope to amend it in Committee.
  5.3 p.m.
  Mr. Adam Butler: I, too, generally welcome the Bill. If all Socialist measures were like this, they might get through the House much more quickly. I hope and believe that, unlike some coal Bills, this one will not create antipathy between the two sides of the House. We respect the experience and feelings of Labour Members, who have much more practical knowledge of this subject than all or most of us can ever hope to have, but I hope that they will accept our genuine interest in the future of a profitable industry and a prosperous work force.
  This is a relatively small but nevertheless important measure to ease the future mining of coal and to compensate

  1369
  for some of the harmful effects of accelerated production in future and for the most harmful consequence of working in the pits—namely, pneumoconiosis. I will not be drawn into any discussion of wage settlements, except to reiterate the point that I have made frequently before, about the need for some meaningful and effective productivity scheme, based either on a single pit or on a group of pits, as the best way of boosting production and improving wages still further.
  It is perhaps easier for an outsider, particularly someone with experience of a variety of factories and plants, to look objectively at mining as a job. Face working and roadway development are undoubtedly hard work. Conditions can be tough and unpleasant, but so can those at some other places of work. What distinguishes mining from almost any other occupation is the continual hazard to health, to the lungs of men working week after week underground.
  I am glad that recruitment figures are good, that the increase in wages is having the effect that one would hope. However, I would say without any shame that, although I have worked in many different conditions, some less pleasant than others, I would not work down a pit, because of pneumoconiosis. I have said that before and have pressed many times, here and elsewhere, for generous compensation for the victims of that disease. I therefore very much welcome the scheme for past sufferers. I would add my weight to that of the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Wilson), and of my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest (Mr. McNair-Wilson) in asking that the question of those who commuted their rights should be looked at again as generously as possible.
  It would be fair to say that this payment and the sums to be paid under the new compensation scheme should be seen as part of the industry's "social wage". I think that it is correct to say that, in wage negotiations, the present Government see the social wage element as one factor in the social contract. No one will begrudge the payment of compensation to the minority who suffer from pneumoconiosis and I hope that no one will begrudge the miners a high wage, part of which is to compensate for the
  1370
  risks that underground workers run. On the other hand, those taxpayers who contribute to the sums authorised in the Bill would not be human if they did not look for some practical gratitude.
  It must be right to develop ways of minimising the risks of this disease in future. I was impressed the last time that I went down one of my local pits to learn that they were experimenting with steam rather than water at the cutting face in an attempt to suppress dust better than at present. One must work, where practicable, towards such technological advances as the radio-controlled shearers which have been mentioned.
  Turning to compensation of a different kind, I welcome the additional compensation for farmers for the effects of opencast mining. I would, however, warn that the Board is likely to stir up hornets' nests in trying to divert or close footpaths. Local residents and parish councils will inevitably put up some resistance.
  There is one important omission in regard to compensation. I have already tried to press the Minister on this matter. One effect of, in the slightly quaint expression, "withdrawing support from land" is subsidence, the worst effect being that of drag. I am concerned here mainly with the effect on private dwellings. The 1957 Act, even if interpreted with leniency, as it generally is nowadays, provides adequate but not generous compensation but it does not cater, for example, for consequential loss.
  Where is the review? The Conservative Government set in train a review, and whenever I have asked about it I have been told that it is just around the next corner but one. Perhaps it got lost when the Department of Energy was set up. One of the effects of accelerating mining operations must be an increase in subsidence damage. Those who mine coal must not have 100 per cent. of the attention, since there are many people who suffer from the effects of subsidence. Will the Minister dig out the review to which I referred and come forward with proposals to improve compensation?
  The Secretary of State commended the Bill to the House. I welcome it as a valuable contribution to the long list of coal legislation. It is designed to assist the production of coal and to ease the

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  troubles of those who suffer, and who have suffered, through no fault of their own, from the effects of the coal production which is so necessary for our nation.
  5.12 p.m.
  Mr. Alec Woodall: I wish to thank the hon. Member for Bosworth (Mr. Butler) for his helpful and kind remarks on the Bill.
  As an ex-miner of 40 years service to the industry, and representing a constituency in which 70 per cent. of the electorate are miners or are connected with mining, I claim to be able to convey to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy, the feelings of those directly affected by the provisions in the Bill, especially those in Clause 1. Although I can tell my right hon. Friend that there is wide acceptance of the broad issues of the Bill and of Clause 1, I wish to draw his attention to the wide concern at the drafting of the pneumoconiosis compensation scheme. My right hon. Friend may reply that the drafting of the scheme was left to the National Coal Board and to the unions concerned and that they drew up the scheme without interference from the Department. I accept that, but I still wish to draw his attention to a serious anomaly which has been brought to my attention, mainly by beneficiaries—that is to say, by widows of former pneumoconiosis sufferers.
  I am referring to the fixing of the date of 20th January 1970 for a variation in the benefit due to widows under the provisions of the scheme, commendable though those provisions are. I repeat that the broad outlines have been widely accepted, and indeed applauded by those directly and indirectly concerned. However, there is still widespread unease about this anomaly which I can best explain by outlining a particular case.
  Let me refer to the situation of a widow of a man who died from this terrible disease before 20th January 1970. The man in question died on 19th January 1970 and his widow could receive under the scheme only £300. Yet the widow of a man who died after 20th January 1970, probably on 21st January, would receive—depending upon the husband's age and degree of certified incapacity—a sum of several thousand
  1372
  pounds. Although there were only two days difference between the dates of those deaths, there was that great difference in the amounts of compensation due to the respective widows.
  As I have stated, I have received—as I am sure have many of my right hon. Friends and colleagues who represent miners—many representations about this anomaly. Protestations have been made to me by widows who benefit the most—namely, those widows whose husbands died since 20th January 1970. Their view is, "Why not call in the money and share it out again equally?" They say—and they should know—that there is little difference between a man coughing his life away and dying fighting for breath, certified at 50 per cent., and a man who is certified at 100 per cent. In other words, they say that there is no difference between men who died before 20th January 1970 and men who died after that date. The widows' view is that the men are dead anyway and the widow in one case is just as much a widow as the other.
  I appreciate that when new schemes such as the present scheme, laudable though they may me, are introduced and dates are set, lines have to be drawn. Consequently somebody is left out in the cold. However, I should like to deal with a specific case in my constituency. I refer to a Mrs. Dobinson of Brierley, the widow of George Dobinson—as fine a man as one could wish to meet. George was severely injured at Frickley colliery in July 1947 when the new Industrial Injuries Act was being brought in. Had George died then, or shortly afterwards, Mrs. Dobinson would have received the princely sum of £300 under the Workmen's Compensation Act. In fact, due to her loving care, devotion and attention to his daily needs, George lived—if one could call it that—until 30th November 1973. On that day George died in Pinderfields Hospital, Wakefield, and was certified to have died from spinal cord degeneration and quadreplegia—in other words, from the injuries which he had received 26 years earlier.
  However, due to the date fixed in the new National Industrial Injuries Scheme in 1947 Mrs. Dobinson was awarded £300 payable under the old Act. As far as I am aware, the sum of £300 is still

  1373
  being held by the court because Mrs. Dobinson refuses to accept it. She looks upon that sum as an insult to her husband who suffered so much over a period of 26 years.
  Furthermore, due to the date fixed in the 1947 Act, Mrs. Dobinson cannot be accepted as an industrial widow and thereby loses a sum of 55p per week payable to industrial widows. I have submitted these facts to my right hon. and hon. Friends at the Department of Health and Social Security, but they regret that nothing can be done in Mrs. Dobinson's case.
  In the opinion of many—and this is one of the heartbreaks which union secretaries and Members of Parliament have to face—nothing can be done and they have to say, "Sorry". These are the pitfalls, to use a mining metaphor, in fixing dates in schemes such as these, commendable though this scheme undoubtedly it. There are always anomalies. I would ask whether the Minister, even at this late stage, could amend Clause 1 (4)(b) of the Bill relating to this very much-needed and desired scheme.
  Finally, I wish to underline to those who say harsh things about miners that mining is a hard, dangerous, monotonous and unrewarding job which must be done by somebody. I would remind them of the heartbreaks that mining often leaves behind in some mining families.
  The House should be aware that by Clause 1 the Government are providing £100 million to recompense pneumoconiotics. There are 35,000 known sufferers and 10,000 widows of former sufferers. These are in addition to all those who are killed and maimed daily in the coal mining industry.
  I should like at this point to ask the Minister a question, and I echo the comment made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton (Mr. Wilson). Is £100 million enough to cover all past known cases? Fortunately, the figures for those killed and injured in the industry during 1974 are the lowest on record. I agree that these figures are probably helped by the strike that took place earlier in 1974. However, I trust and hope that this favourable trend continues, but all those who are critical of the miners should ask themselves several questions.
  1374
  What is the true price of coal in terms of human suffering? Is the coal that we burn as expensive as it at first appears? We must have miners, and the only way in which we can retain and recruit them is by offering better pay and better working conditions.
  Pneumoconiosis is one of the great scourges of mining. It behoves us to look after the pneumoconiotics. When they pass on, often after many years of suffering and disability, their dependants should be properly provided for.
  On behalf of all miners, and especially pneumoconiotics and their dependants, I thank my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for what he has provided in the Bill. I hope and trust that we have the support not only of the hon. Member for Bosworth but of all his right hon. and hon. Friends. I hope that the Bill will have an unopposed Second Reading.
  5.21 p.m.
  Sir Paul Bryan: I welcome the Bill not only because of the beneficial effect it will have on the sufferers from pneumoconiosis, whose fate is so well understood by Labour Members who have worked in the industry, but personally because it will give me an opportunity over the weeks in Committee of putting many questions which are of deep concern to my constituents.
  The Bill is entitled the "Coal Industry Bill". In my eyes, perhaps understandably, it is more aptly to be entitled the "Selby Coalfield Bill", because half of this coalfield, destined to be the largest in Europe, is in my constituency. This half of the coalfield is under a completely rural area. The people who live there live in small villages, and the majority of them work in agriculture or commute to Selby or York.
  The community there is unfamiliar with coal mining. My hon. Friend the Member for New Forest (Mr. McNair-Wilson) said that Yorkshiremen are not strangers to coal mining. I can assure him that they may not be strangers to it in South Yorkshire or West Yorkshire, but they certainly are in villages such as Naburn, Riccall and Escrick. The community is naturally apprehensive of the effect the coalfield will have on the farms, on their livelihoods and on the environment of their villages.

  1375
  This does not mean that they take a negative or hostile view of the project. The coalfield committee of the Selby District Council has done a superb job in gathering information and expressions of opinion from relevant bodies and individuals for the benefit of the county council and in preparation for the coming public inquiry. Such ad hoc bodies as the Escrick and Deighton Residents' Association have approached, with professional advice, this possible threat to the environment of the area in a positive and constructive way.
  The county council planning department has already invited the views of the public on five alternative plans for accommodating the influx of people expected to move into the area over the next 15 years. As this influx will consist of some 3,000 miners, paid at a much higher rate than the average wage in the area, I hope that they will be given opportunities to buy their houses rather than have to depend on subsidised housing supplied by the local authority.
  The National Coal Board has done its best to inform the public about its plans, but now the public relations exercise is over. The time has come to answer detailed questions, many of which will be put during the public inquiry in April. It will save time and worry if some of them can be answered in advance during the Committee stage of the Bill.
  This Second Reading debate is short, and it behoves us to make short speeches. I shall use my ration of time to give notice of a few of the subjects I shall wish to raise, and the amendments we shall want to put down, in Committee.
  I start with the question of compensation. A constituent writes to me from the village of Stillingfleet, where one of the satellite pits is to be sited. He complains that his house, for which he had received a number of offers, suddenly became unsaleable on the news that the satellite pit was to be there. He asked the National Coal Board what compensation was available for the loss he had suffered in the value of the house. He received the following reply:
  "The Board cannot accept liability for the effects of their proposals on local property values. The carrying-out of any new industrial or commercial development in any area inevitably causes some fluctuation in the value of residential property there but this is so what-
  1376
  ever the nature of the development and is not peculiar to coalmining."
  I would value the Secretary of State's comment on that ruling, because it will set a precedent for a thousand similar cases which are bound to arise during this period. If he confirms it, many of my constituents will want to know why it is that compensation is available for those who suffer from the proximity of a new motorway but not for those who suffer from the proximity of a satellite mine shaft.
  Mr. Woodall: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that because the National Coal Board is to develop the Selby coalfield, a thousand of his inhabitants will leave the area?
  Sir P. Bryan: I am not saying anything of the sort. I am trying to put forward, in a reasonable way, the thoughts that people will have in an area which is unfamiliar with coal mining. I do not think that what my constituent put to me was unreasonable from his point of view, although it might have shown his lack of knowledge of what happens in coal mining areas.
  Clause 2 deals with the right of the Board to withdraw support to enable coal to be worked. In other words, it deals with subsidence. Subsection (2) deals with the notice to be given, which seems inadequate in two respects. First, the actual notice of the land to which it relates does not seem sufficiently precise. Secondly, the publishing of the notice does not appear to be sufficiently widespread.
  My objection to subsection (3), in which we are told that the Board will
  "pay proper compensation for damage"
  is more serious. It is at the heart of the general worry in the area. With so high a water table and so complicated a system of drainage as exists in that agricultural area, even the National Coal Board acknowledges that subsistence is likely to cause widespread damage, either temporary or permanent, to much farmland. Yet in the Bill "proper compensation" is promised, in language which, according to my legal advisers has no precedent in any other Act. Because of the vital importance of that one sentence, we shall introduce an amendment to clarify its meaning, to spell it out in greater detail.

  1377
  The Explanatory and Financial Memorandum, under the heading "Financial effects of the Bill" says:
  "The financial limit will be £100 million."
  Will the Minister explain that figure? What is it supposed to cover? From what we have heard already, it seems hardly an amount sufficient to cover the pneumoconiosis claims. It is surely not possible at this stage to have the slightest idea of the liabilities incurred in compensation, apart from the National Coal Board's pneumoconiosis compensation scheme.
  Clause 3 which deals with the right of the Board to work coal in former copy-hold land, is complex. We shall be well advised to leave the main discussion of this clause to the Committee stage, but there is one point I would like to raise now. I understand that under the present law some former copyholders of land still have retained interest in coal for which the clause now requires the Board to pay compensation. However, it is difficult for some of the owners of these retained interests to establish their rights. No mention of the rights occurs in many title deeds. They are ancient manorial rights, recorded in manorial records, many of which are hard to locate.
  I have been advised that the Board has a large number of these records in its possession, the Church Commissioners having handed over 800 such records to the Coal Commission in 1938. The Bill puts on the owner the onus of establishing a right to retained interest. I hope that the Board will help potential applicants by giving access to its records. In a way, it has a particular moral obligation to do so in that all previous legislation required the Board to identify and compensate the holders of coal rights before that coal could be worked. The fact that no fewer than 12 years is allowed for copyholders to establish their rights is an acknowledgment of the complications and difficulties of so doing. When answering, I should be interested to hear the Minister's estimate of the total sums likely to be paid in compensation under the clause. Is it a matter of thousands or millions of pounds. It is difficult to know.
  Finally, I should like some guidance on the general policy of the NCB in
  1378
  working the coal. For instance, when one considers the proposed siting of the satellite shafts, one cannot help suspecting that technical convenience below the ground will take precedence over environmental considerations above the ground, especially as no compensation will be payable for any of the ill-effects of the 70 ft. shaft, and so on. I should like some expression of policy on this aspect of the problem.
  5.31 p.m.
  Mr. Walter Padley: Twenty-five years ago tomorrow I had the great honour of being elected the Member of Parliament for the Ogmore constituency which was then, as now, a major centre of the South Wales coalfield. Throughout those 25 years my knowledge of the mining community has deepened and my appreciation of its great qualities has grown. I therefore give a wholehearted welcome to the first part of the Bill which, at last, provides the measure of justice to the victims of that dreaded disease pneumoconiosis for which many generations have campaigned.
  At the same time, while recognising that the Government have underwritten the agreement between the National Union of Mineworkers and the National Coal Board, I add my voice to that of my hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton (Mr. Wilson), speaking on behalf of the official Miners' Group, in urging the Secretary of State and his colleagues to look again at the anomalies that will arise with the commuted cases and the pre-1970 widows.
  In my area, which includes the Llynfi, Garw and Ogmore Valleys there is a sense of gratitude for this giant measure of social reform, but there is still a feeling that the whole problem could be solved at not too great an additional cost. On this occasion we are fortunate in having a Secretary of State and an Under-Secretary who know the mining industry and have personal experience of the problem in all its aspects.
  I turn now to open-cast mining. My constituency comprises not only three beautiful mining valleys, but six or seven miles of beautiful coastline and the Vale of Glamorgan. That means that, for the whole period that I have represented the area, it has been not only a major producer of deep-mined coal but a major site for open-cast mining. So far open-cast

  1379
  mining operations have not caused much civil disturbance. I can recall only one scheme at Aberkenfig 20 years ago when public outcry was so great that it was stopped before planning permission was granted. But other schemes have gone ahead.
  Last May, when it emerged that the NCB proposed to take over 850 acres to be worked for 20 years, there was a sense of outrage in the mining community of the Ogmore constituency. The chairman of the protest committee is a NUM officer of long standing who has served for 20 years as a lodge secretary. The Ogwr Borough Council and the Mid-Glamorgan County Council have intimated their objection to the scheme. From that it will be appreciated that this mining community fully appreciates all the environmental arguments, though it is also concerned with the economic arguments—for example, the need for coking coal to feed the great Abbey steelworks at nearby Port Talbot.
  Typical of the 200 to 300 letters that I have received is one from a lady who says:
  "I am 79 years old and a widow. I was born and lived all my life on the side of our mountain. We were 11 children—three sisters and eight brothers. My husband and my eight brothers all died from dust. When I look through the window of my home, about 200 yards down the alley is the little chapel where my husband and my eight brothers are at rest. Now the Coal Board wants to take our lovely valley from us for opencast mining. Don't you think, sir, that we have suffered enough?"
  When this project was first announced, I attended a mass meeting and had consultations with the local officers. I got in touch with the Under-Secretary of State, via the Secretary of State, and he detailed the procedures that would have to be gone through before the NCB could proceed with what is called the Fernbank Site scheme at Pencoed near Bridgend.
  When it was announced that the Bill would reintroduce and strengthen compulsory powers, there was natural concern whether the previous information that I had received about the legal processes to be gone through would still apply. From my reading of the Bill it is still necessary for an advertisement to appear in the London Gazette and one local paper and for notices to be served on the borough council and the county council
  1380
  as well as on persons immediately affected. If either of the councils or any of those affected object, I understand that the Secretary of State must hold an inquiry. Apart from that, he can institute an inquiry at his discretion. I have had assurances that the Bill, in restoring the compulsory powers under the 1958 Act which lapsed in 1968, will not interfere with that machinery. I ask the Under-Secretary, when he replies to the debate, to reiterate that assurance.
  There is a need to balance the economic requirements of the country with the environment of a great mining community which thrives on its deep-mined coal. Opencast mining is an addition to an already great contribution which this mining community is making not only to Wales but to the whole of Britain. I am sure that the Under-Secretary, with his distinguished record in the Scottish NUM, will be sympathetic to the argument that I have put forward and will give the assurances for which I ask.
  5.40 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Alison: The hon. Member for Ogmore (Mr. Padley), like the hon. Members for Hemsworth (Mr. Woodall) and Hamilton (Mr. Wilson), spent most of the time discussing Clause 1. I hope they will not regard it as an insensitivity to dust disease on my part if I do not deal with that aspect on which they spoke so graphically and about which they know so much more than I. I say only that I hope that the Under-Secretary and the Secretary of State will listen carefully to the specific requests by the hon. Members for Hamilton and Hemsworth, because if they do not do so they may find some curious happenings in Standing Committee. There may be some unholy alliances across the benches—and I am sure that the Minister knows what I am referring to. The more articulate and the more convincing hon. Members opposite have been about dust disease, the greater the likelihood of bipartisan support for them.
  I wish to deal with the main part of the Bill in Clause 2 and the clauses which follow. The Secretary of State spent a little time on a wide-ranging appraisal of the coal industry. Taking my cue from him, I wish to make a few general comments about Selby coalfield. I have

  1381
  the privilege to represent the town of Selby and the surrounding countryside in a very large constituency. I want the Secretary of State to make sure that one principle is followed in development of the Selby coal find.
  The folk at Selby and my other constituents recognise that this find is good for Britain. For that reason the overwhelming majority of them understand the necessity for exploiting it, but we do not want the principle invoked that what is to be good for Britain is bad for the local folk. That may have been an acceptable approach in bygone generations in the exploitation of coal. It will not do in the twentieth century. What is to be good for Britain must be at least as good for the people of Selby. That means that if hundreds of millions of pounds are to be spent in exploiting this coal find, at least a fair and reasonable proportion of the capital outlay must be applied to maintaining and improving the environmental features of this part of the world. There must be better schools, better roads and better recreational facilities. There must be better health facilities and better facilities generally for the local environment.
  I am certain that the Under-Secretary, who has visited this part of the world, will agree that it would be the most ludicrous anomaly if the most modern coalfield in Europe, which it will be by the time it is in operation in the 1980s, has to co-exist with the Selby toll bridge, an eighteenth century wooden construction which spans the River Ouse on the main trunk road. There is no provision for a replacement at present. There must be a Selby northern route bypass if the coal development is to go ahead.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Howden (Sir P. Bryan) mentioned the possibility of incoming miners buying their own houses. I, too, would like to draw this matter to the Under-Secretary's attention. NUM branch members whom I met and talked with at Ledston Luck colliery not many months ago asked me to make representations to the National Coal Board that if miners are to move into the area—and many of them would prefer not to but to travel to work—they should not be put into pit villages. They want help from the National Coal Board to buy their own
  1382
  homes. That practice would be very much in keeping with the locality where the community lives in small villages, some of them recently expanded. These are mixed communities but they are compact, and that is how we want to keep it.
  Mr. Skeet: Is my hon. Friend aware that under European Coal and Steel Community plans miners can obtain a loan for 25 years at a 1 per cent. rate of interest?
  Mr. Alison: I hope that between them Sir Derek Ezra and Mr. Ortoli will be able to arrange decent mortages for miners to buy their own houses in this part of the world.
  I wish to turn to the question of coal pillars. The Selby field will occupy an enormous area of open agricultural land with villages and towns dotted around the perimeter. It is essential that the maximum number of coal pillars should be left beneath the residential areas. At present the only localities which can be certain of having coal pillars beneath them are the pit service shafts where they appear—some in my constituency and some in the neighbouring constituency—and Selby Abbey. These are the only places which will qualify automatically. It is ludicrous that ancient monuments and inanimate machinery should qualify for coal pillars but that human beings living in houses with the possibility of cracks running down the walls and slates falling off the roofs should not qualify. This is a reversal of correct human priorities. I am certain that Labour Members will support my view that the needs of human beings, many of whom have bought their homes with their savings, should enjoy priority as high as that of the service shafts.
  Mr. Kelley: There is a school of thought which maintains that with the rapid rates of advance and extraction of coal it is wrong to leave in pillars to preserve the surface. It is argued that it is better to allow the surface to descend over an entire area rather than to prop up with one pillar and allow the line to draw back out at the surface at some point far removed from where it was intended. That might affect residential property in the area far more than if the surface were allowed to descend.
  Mr. Alison: I am obliged for that expert intervention. However, it merely enables me to underline my main point that the National Coal Board must have in mind first and foremost the needs of human beings and not the efficiency of the industry. After all, the object of coal production is to make life better for human being; it is not simply to stack up coal. The Board must be guided by what will maximise the advantages and benefits for human beings.
  One or two specific aspects of the Bill cause me some misgivings. The first is in relation to the provision for compensation for this weird category of land ownership called a copyhold interest. Is the true intention of the Bill to compensate the landowner or the copyholder at the time at which the land surface is lowered? Normally, there is not likely to be much of a time lapse between the issuing of an order under Clause 3 and the subsequent lowering of the surface.
  However, the Board might decide to issue a blanket notice because of the great number of copyhold interests in the Selby area. That would be the most rapid and administratively efficient way of working. But in that case the land surface might be lowered many years after the blanket notice had been given. The compensation is tied to the time at which the notice is issued. With inflation running at 15 to 20 per cent. there would be, with a three-year lapse, a 60 per cent. loss in the value of the compensation. This will not do.
  Some other matters arise in the context of the progress of inflation. Disputes are provided for in the Bill. If a dispute continues after the surface has been lowered, there is no great pressure upon the Board to bring negotiations to a conclusion. After all, it has got what it wanted, the land has been lowered. The longer the negotiations drag on, the more a disputant is disadvantaged because of inflation. There should be an arbitration machinery if disputes look like continuing too long.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Howden made some important points about compensation. There is apparently no firm basis for fixing compensation. Clause 3 makes a vague reference to it. In this context, the land owner has no
  1384
  inviolable right of possession. He is in an analogous position to someone in a local authority area who is not negotiating with the local authority over an agreed sale but is subject to a compulsory purchase order. The land owner has no inviolable power or right of possession to any copyhold. As a result he is treated in the context of compulsory purchase.
  We must know the basis of compensation if this is the case. The Chief Executive of the Selby District Council, Mr. Jack Wakefield, took the trouble to motor down from Yorkshire last night to brief me on the Bill. He returned the same night—such is his devotion to the interests of the locality and his good will. He advised me that the copyhold compensation, for which he was able to find some precedents, might be at a rate of £50 per foot acre—£50 for each foot thickness of a seam per acre of land. It will be interesting to see whether this is the level of compensation being considered. If it is, it implies a large outlay for the Government. There must be fair compensation in the context of acquisition which looks like being more or less compulsory.
  I turn to the 12-year duration of the period of notice, during which time claims can be made by copyhold interests. That period is not sufficient. It is easy to overlook the London Gazette, the Edinburgh Gazette and the Belfast Gazette. It is not nearly so easy to overlook the Selby Times, the Selby Gazette & Herald, the Skyrack Express and the Boston Spa News. Even then, notices go amiss. The Statute of Limitations prescribes a period of 30 years for notice of claims of adverse possession. There should be a comparable period in this Bill. The 20 years' period, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Howden referred, which is the period for which land has to be held by the Board after open-cast work is too long.
  Consider the farmer who starts farming at the age of 30, and is then deprived of a chunk of land for 20 years. That would bring him to the age of 50 before he could use that land. That is too long. Ten years may be too short and 20 too long. Fifteen years is a fair compromise. I hope that the Minister, in advance of the Committee stage, will consider cutting the 20-year period by at least five years.

  1385
  I am unhappy about the provision in Schedule 1 about new structures. By failing to stipulate the kind of construction the Board will put the owner or the builder of a new structure in a dilemma. Should he build it intelligently, using the most modern techniques, material and concrete so that it stands firm? If he does this without a stipulation from the Board, he will get no compensation for the extra cost involved. Because the Board has not stipulated that he must build it in a certain way, should he build it in a cheap way, knowing that it will come tumbling down? Only then will he get compensation. It is necessary for the Board to be required to make a specific stipulation. I hope that the Secretary of State will give some thought to that.
  There is an absence of any provision, except in Clause 6, for consequential or continuing loss of crops and quality of crops. This is a gap in the Bill. The Secretary of State, reasonably and fairly, for open-cast operations has set the precedent of following through in the first 12 months after the land has been returned to the farmer when loss may occur. This is very good. Why cannot we have this provision for deep-cast mining, too? All sorts of problems arise for farmers when land is brought back into use for farming. I quote from a letter I have received from the NFU. It says that a farmer
  "may well suffer considerable loss due to the decline in the inherent fertility of the land due to loss of organic matter, loss of soil structure, compaction, loss of essential nutrients from the topsoil and a number of other causes."
  This can happen in open-cast as well as deep-cast operations. There should be compensation for this kind of loss. The Secretary of State has provided for it in Clause 6 and I hope he will consider providing for it in other parts of the Bill.
  Apart from these critical and inquiring points on behalf of my constituents, I warmly welcome the Bill.
  5.57 p.m.
  Mr. David Watkins: The hon. Member for Barkston Ash (Mr. Alison) spoke as someone who represents a constituency which is not familiar with coal mining but which is about to become familiar with it in the not-very-distant future. I speak by contrast as one who
  1386
  represents a constituency which has been familiar with coal mining for a very long time. Many of the towns and villages in my area came into existence simply because pits were sunk in those localities.
  Clause 1 of the Bill deals with compensation for victims of pneumoconiosis. When my right hon. Friend moved the Second Reading he rightly described this as one of the noblest clauses which had ever been included in any Coal Industry Bill, with its proposals to give powers enabling grants of up to £100 million to be made for the compensation of pneumoconiosis victims.
  Money can never replace the health of victims nor can it bring back those who have been killed before their time as a result of that disease. The clause embodies the principle of national responsibility for those who have suffered in winning the coal from which the entire nation has benefitted and will continue to benefit. The nation may have to bear in mind, as several hon. Members have pointed out, that the figure of £100 million may have to be increased.
  My constituency has only one coal mine whereas it once had 15 or more. It still has a not inconsiderable number of miners. It always had, and still has, a large proportion of pneumoconiosis victims. One of the most distressing features of my work during the nine years I have been privileged to represent the constituency concerns my interview sessions with constituents—the sad procession of sufferers and widows of those who have been killed by this disease. The proposals in Clause 1 of the Bill will be warmly welcomed in my constituency and everywhere else that this scourge of the coalfields prevails.
  The proposals in regard to opencasting will not be so welcome in my constituency and elsewhere as are the proposals contained in Clause 1. Clauses 4 and 5 in particular give the National Coal Board very strong powers of compulsory purchase for opencast mining operations. The powers are much stronger than the lapsed powers of the 1958 Act. Clause 4 refers to temporary rights of occupation and use. As my right hon. Friend pointed out, those temporary rights can extend for a period of up to 20 years—twice as long as was permitted under the powers contained in the 1958 Act.

  1387
  I praise the National Coal Board's restoration of land after opencast operations have taken place. Without exception, remarkable land restoration takes place, but if the operations continue for up to 20 years and then restoration takes, say, five years, it is stretching the definition of "temporary" to extraordinary lengths.
  What I find disturbing also is that to some extent the National Coal Board can be virtually judge and jury in its own cause. I am aware that the Bill gives the Secretary of State the final word in all applications, but what worries me and many people in my constituency and in the North-East is that local planning procedures are bypassed and the whole Bill is weighted in favour of the National Coal Board and against everybody else's right to object. The Secretary of State's determination of all applications will inevitably be weighted in the same direction.
  In the late 1960s the NCB sought opencasting powers in the valley of the River Derwent in my constituency. The operation was proposed to be carried out in an area of considerable amenity—woodlands. To use the term employed by my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Mr. Padley), there was an immediate sense of outrage in that historic mining community. The district council and the county council both expressed very strong objections to the proposal. As a result, in the event in 1970 the NCB applied to opencast in a much smaller area than had been originally intended. There was an immediate public outcry and almost unanimous opposition among large numbers of my constituents living in villages in the area where the operations were to take place. In the event, after a public inquiry the application was rejected by the then Secretary of State.
  Under the powers in the Bill, all that volume of objection could be swept away. There are no proposals for local planning powers to be exercised by elected local authorities.
  I come rapidly to the conclusion of my remarks.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. George Thomas): The hon. Gentleman promised to speak for only five minutes.
  Mr. Watkins: I accept your rebuke, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and will quickly conclude my remarks. I recognise that we are on the horns of a dilemma in having to reconcile the demand for coking coal, which is available in large quantities by opencast methods, with defending the rights of people to object. My final word to my right hon. Friend is that I think that the Bill is weak in that regard and that it needs strengthening in Committee.
  6.5 p.m.
  Mr. A. J. Beith: Mindful of your warnings, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I shall give my welcome to the Bill quickly, subject only to some reservations similar to those expressed by hon. Members opposite about pneumoconiosis victims from the earlier period, to the reservations expressed by the hon. Member for Consett (Mr. Watkins) about local authorities' planning powers, and to some further points that I will mention. I will not add to what has been said on the first two points.
  That Clause 1 should be in the Bill at all is a vivid illustration of the background against which something like the miners' pay settlement should be judged, because mining as a career exacts a heavy price in death, suffering, pain and discomfort which no compensation, however calculated, can ever make up for. No compensation can restore health or make up for making a man a physical wreck.
  At least in the case of pneumoconiosis we have a defined and identifiable scourge and the Bill makes possible substantial improvements in the compensation paid. In addition to this, there are the very limited specific forms of compensation for other hazards of mining available under the industrial injuries legislation and its predecessors. None of these provisions, in my view, takes away the mining industry's reasonable claim to be a high-wage and highly rewarded industry, because a high financial reward is the least that we can offer when we ask a man to live with the dangers and the discomforts, of which penumoconiosis is only one.
  In my area—the northern part of the Northumberland coalfield—it is, perhaps, some of the other scourges which are as apparent as pneumoconiosis, because we are by no means the worst area as regards

  1389
  the incidence of pneumoconiosis. It is injuries—accidents to the spine and such happenings—which must also be seen as part of the general background of risk and danger that every miner faces.
  When talking about the pay settlement and thinking, for example, of surface workers, where comparisons are often drawn with other industries, one cannot but be reminded of how many surface workers in the coal industry are themselves the casualties of working at the face and are the people in whom these injuries have been found.
  Anybody who represents a mining constituency and who has to deal with constituency cases of people who have suffered these injuries and these diseases looks upon any mining pay settlement in a slightly different light from anyone who has not had such experience. Anyone who goes underground regularly would recognise that perhaps in the past the NCB overdid its propaganda and the public were led to believe that were now in a world of whitewashed roadways and ample working spaces. However, the era of the 20-inch seam has not gone in the kind of collieries, such as Shilbottle, that I represent.
  If we say that mining is special and that it is distinct, it is wrong and immoral to try to use pay settlements in the mining industry as any sort of guideline for other industries. We must, in what we pay for our coal, pay what we think our miners are entitled to.
  I turn from the deep-mining aspect of the Bill to the substantial part which is concerned with opencasting. This is a very important source of energy of which we have seen a considerable amount in my constituency and of which we expect to see more. Opencast mining has been accepted in my area and the appearance on the landscape of massive cranes has begun to be regarded almost with affection. One of these cranes is know affectionately as "Big Geordie". When my hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Mr. Smith) came on a visit to the area, some confusion arose whether the name applied to the machinery or to the visitor. That crane has become part of the landscape and is accepted.
  At the end of the day, as the hon. Member for Consett said, the landscape
  1390
  may well be the better and not in any way the worse after restoration has taken place. It is in the interim that the difficulties arise. It is not without considerable upheaval for agriculture and for the local communities that opencast mining proceeds.
  In one case in my constituency the opencast mining development led to the complete removal and replacement of a village. There is one Member of the House who was born there. If the hon. Member for Kingston-upon Hull, West (Mr. Johnson) were to go back to his birthplace he would find little trace of it, because the whole village of Radcliffe has been removed.
  Most people would agree that that was a success story. A whole village was transplanted to the edge of the nearby town of Amble. New homes were provided there. The community was kept together. Help was given to to the Methodist Church and a new workingmen's club was built. This was all in an effort to keep the community together.
  The difficulties are, perhaps, greater for communities that remain on the edge of opencast development. It is not much consolation to the older people in such communities that the area in which they live will be transformed into a beauty spot in five, 10, 15 or 20 years' time, because they must live out their days with the present difficulties. They have the problems of the ugliness which may surround them, and perhaps more pressing to them than the dirt and dust which comes into their homes, which makes keeping the houses clean very difficult. They have problems resulting from the dislocation of rights of way. One village in my constituency, Hauxley, experienced this problem from opencast development which took place between the village and Amble.
  The rights of way provisions in the Bill are not simply matters of recreational needs. One would suppose that the recreational interest in some of the footpaths affected by opencast sites would fall off sharply while opencast mining was taking place. After all, not many of us would choose to spend our Saturday afternoons walking in areas of opencast mining. It is the local community's use of short-cuts and other routes which is most seriously affected.

  1391
  I am therefore anxious that we should be clear about the implications of Clause 5 and Schedule 3. It seems to me that a parish council, as the sole objector, would have the right to an inquiry. I hope that my reading of the Bill is correct and that the Minister will confirm that if a parish council were to be the sole objector on behalf of a village to the stopping up of a right of way by an opencast operation an inquiry would ensue. That is potentially a matter of considerable importance to the communities affected.
  Perhaps equally important is that the National Coal Board and the contractors involved in opencast operations should recognise the needs of the communities near whom they work and maintain good communications with the local people while opencast mining continues.
  To summarise, the Bill is welcome as long as there is recognition of the high rewards which are due to the men who work underground; these benefits must be at the expense of the benefits which some of the rest of us might have in our wages and the price at which we buy coal. It is welcome as long as it is recognised by the National Coal Board and the opencast contractors that there are special problems in the communities affected which should be considered with great care. If there is such recognition, I shall have no difficulty in supporting the Bill.
  6.12 p.m.
  Mr. John Golding: I am delighted with the pneumoconiosis provisions in the Bill, but I ask the Government first to make it absolutely clear that the responsibility for compensation lies with the National Coal Board as an employer and not with the Government. I say that because pottery workers suffering from pneumoconiosis who live side by side with miners in my constituency are aggrieved that the miners are to get a lump sum and they are not. We have to tell the pottery workers that their payments should and must come from the profits of the pottery manufacturers and not from the State.
  Secondly, the Government must take note that the vast army of miners crippled by emphysema will not benefit. Many of them suffer far more than people with pneumoconiosis. This injustice must
  1392
  be tackled before long. Thirdly, the Government must note that there is concern about the anomalies in the scheme which have been outlined by my hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton (Mr. Wilson), and these should be dealt with if possible.
  I turn to the rest of the Bill. Obviously the country needs coal, and Staffordshire can provide about 12½ million tons a year if it has the miners, the capital investment and the planning permissions to develop the rich new sources which the NCB has discovered—spending, incidentally, about £400,000 a year on geological exploration in Staffordshire. If the men are paid well enough, recruits to the mines will come forward, despite the hazards of the job.
  The productivity scheme in the new wage settlement is to be particularly welcomed, but even without it productivity in Staffordshire increased last year by 7 per cent. There would be no economic crisis if half the critics of the miners had done as well last year.
  But the miners need to be backed by investment. Local pits in my constituency, such as Silverdale and Holditch, are ripe for further development, but there are sources which have yet to be tapped, such as the 100 million workable tons at Stafford, as well as a large amount on the edge of the Westlands housing estate in my constituency.
  To mine the coal more easily, the National Coal Board needs this Bill. It must have it. In return, however, it must do all it can to reduce the hardship which opencast and other mining can bring to local residents. It must be generous with subsidence claims. It must continue to be, as it is now, the most dedicated clearer of derelict land. The Board has made a considerable contribution to land reclamation in North Staffordshire. We look to it to continue the work.
  I wish the Bill well because it will be good for Staffordshire, good for the environment and good for the economy. I hope that it will be passed very quickly.
  6.15 p.m.
  Mr. T. H. H. Skeet: As you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, have indicated that there is a strict limitation on time, I shall not refer to any of the technicalities relating to the Bill which can be safely left for the Committee stage. I should,

  1393
  however, like to make two comments about the generalities of the coal industry.
  First, I am disturbed that the target to be achieved by the Bill may fall behind, and I should like to mention one possible reason for that—planning. The Secretary of State wishes a drift mine to be created at Gascoigne Wood, South Milford, in Selby. He indicated in reply to a Question asked some time ago that it will be subject to normal planning procedures. The North Yorkshire County Council is to hold a public inquiry, starting on 2nd April 1975, and it is hoped that coal to the extent of about 2 million tons will be derived from the mine by 1978.
  However, I do not think that it is practicable to extract the coal at this stage. In other words, I think that the date may fall behind. There is a drift mine nearby at Royston which is subject to the planning consent of the West Yorkshire Metropolitan County Council for which the sequence of dates is as follows. On 28th August 1974 planning permission was granted subject to detailed condtions. On 5th November of the same year a modifications order was made covering the system of working the coal and the rate of extraction because people feared the amount of subsidence which might take place. On 4th February 1975 a local objection was lodged and now, apparently, a date for the holding of a local inquiry is awaited. The Secretary of State's confirmation order will be required after the date has been fixed. There is, therefore, room for substantial slippage in the programme.
  The Secretary of State cannot have it both ways. If he is to allow environmental considerations to emerge and the local population to have a say in these matters, which is perfectly understandable, it may not be possible to reach the figure of 10 million tons by 1985.
  The other matter concerns the question of price. Labour Members, in their telling speeches, have said that there is a true price of coal. Do we expect the miners to mine it for an unrewarding sum? The new wage rates should be understood by the public. The basic rate for an underground face worker is £61. I worked it out that his gross earnings are likely to be £85 for a 42-hour
  1394
  week and if he works on night shift it will be £93 a week. Bearing in mind concessionary coal and additions for such matters as housing, the miner will be well placed, and we wish him well.
  Let me make two observations on the question of concessionary coal. The annual consumption of coal-using families in the United Kingdom is 2½ tons. Serving miners receive betwen 6 and 11 tons per annum. In lieu, they receive £117·14 if they live in smokeless fuel areas. The total cost to the National Coal Board of supplying coal or smokeless fuels to the people eligible is £28 million. Valued at retail prices and not pithead prices, concessionary coal costs the NCB no less than £50 million.
  I happened to indicate, of course, that one must add in loans from the ECSC for miners' housing for which a 17 per cent. interest rate is charged over a term of 25 years. This is very gratifying. I do not begrudge the miners all these advantages but I say to them that they are now amongst the peers of industry. They are receiving more than Members of this House under the new deal and I wish them well. But there is a price beyond which the public will not go.
  If I may cite a Question of mine which the Secretary of State answered the other day, the cost of coal for industrial users worked out at between 5·5p and 6·4p per therm in England at the end of 1974, compared with 9·5p to 10·5p for fuel oil. If this sort of thing goes on, and if further claims go in, the revised coal figures will be well beyond 5p to 8p per therm. Thus the position between coal and fuel oil will continue to narrow.
  At the present pace of wage settlements, parity between the two fuels will become significant. The gap will be growing narrower and the era of cheap coal will be over for ever. If the target of 150 million tons is to be achieved, it means that we may have to sustain a lot of production for the United Kingdom which may be at an uneconomic and unsustainable rate.
  I mention to the Secretary of State that the price of coking coal has gone up between 1973 and 1975 by 144 per cent. On this a major industry depends. In 1970–71 the total cost of coal for electricity generation, to the CEGB, was £368 million. Today, under the new

  1395
  arrangements, it is close on £1,000 million—that is, up 166 per cent.
  I could give more figures but I do not think there is any great point in doing that. What I am saying is that for every wage claim that goes in, particularly with this one of the miners, the costs will be handed on to the consumers of electricity, to the consumers of coal and to the people who will promote manufactures and equipment in the factories of this country.
  In relation to the plan which the Bill is seeking to procure by building up opencast coal—subsequent clauses deal with this—from 10 million tons to 15 million tons, which will increase the number of sites from 54 to as many as 70, environmental considerations would come into that. But I fully back the Secretary of State in what he is doing as opencast coal is the cheapest to produce in the United Kingdom. If he is to be able to achieve a respectable price for electricity in the United Kingdom comparable to that in Western Germany, where they have brown coal, he must have the aid of opencast coal.
  I cannot agree with the TUC that the analysis of 150 million tons will be achieved by 1985. With the extension of pits and major schemes at existing pits, it seems that something like 120 million tons may be achieved by the time the Secretary of State wants it. Will he look at the figures once again if we are to give him the powers he requires in the Bill to let down the surface, difficulties retained by the copyholder and secure additional rights in opencast mining. These powers should never have lapsed in the earlier Act. Will the Secretary of State ensure that his calculations are such that he will be able to achieve the changes he has in mind and produce coal at economic prices?
  6.24 p.m.
  Mr. Tom Ellis: Like the hon. Member for Barkston Ash (Mr. Alison) I, too, am not going to discuss Clause 1 and, like him, I hope that I shall not be thought insensitive. I shall set myself a deadline of five minutes, and will try my very best to meet it.
  I want to talk about the second part of the Bill. This seems clearly to be in response to the increasing energy
  1396
  demand. I want to give a small table to illustrate how absolutely fantastic this increase in demand is. The figures are so important that I risk boring the House with them, but, because of their importance, I am sure that the House will forgive me.
  In 1800, 175 years ago, it is estimated that the world energy consumption, in terms of coal equivalent, was 12 million tons. In 1860, 60 years later, that 12 million tons had become 160 million tons. In 1920, 60 years later on again, the 160 million tons had become 1,500 million tons. By 1965 the figure had reached 5,000 million tons. It is estimated that in 1980 it will have reached 12,000 million tons. So the figures are: 12 million, 160 million, 1,500 million, 5,000 million, and in the last 15 year jump, 12,000 million.
  In effect what I am saying is that more energy will be consumed in this world during the 20 years between 1965 and 1985 than was consumed during the whole existence of the world previously. That is a measure of the fantastic increase in demand.
  The obvious question that arises from this set of figures, the question that dwarfs all others, is "where is it to come from?" It is because it does dwarf all other questions that I feel fully entitled to criticise previous Governments and energy departments and to accuse them of having been culpably complacent.
  Coming now to the immediate position of the Bill and the coal industry, the immediate position of the coal industry is far from happy. It faces a Herculean task but there are no signs that it is girding itself, like Hercules, to measure up to the task. For example, the Secretary of State gave figures towards the end of November about wage costs. I should explain that I am not talking about wages. I, too, like the hon. Member for Berwick upon Tweed (Mr. Beith) believe in a high wage industry. But the fact is that in real terms the wages costs for coal—and they comprise roughly two-thirds of the total cost—have gone up during the last three years by 30 per cent. The gravity of this trend can easily escape us. Energy is a primary resource, the demand for which is rising. We are in a so-called quaternary economy with services to services and so on. It is not as if the costs of the services to

  1397
  the services were rising. With the cost of primary resources going up in real terms within a quaternary economy, then this is a very serious and grave situation. Indeed, I do not think that anyone can over-emphasise the seriousness of the trend.
  I know that oil, which started off the immediate decline in the coal industry, has quintupled in price. But there is a world of difference between flexibility in the price of a key product of one country and the pressure of costs on a key product of another country.
  I welcome this Bill to the extent that it helps, in that it does something to increase total demand. I think that it is in this regard, this unit cost regard, that the key word is "output". Productivity and capacity are both important, but the key word is "output". Every colliery manager knows that a large output covers a multitude of sins. Unfortunately trends are rather against us because improvement in output and productivity this financial year, ending next month, has been only marginal.
  We now have to look elsewhere than mechanisation, because we are already fairly well mechanised. We now have to look towards getting a substantial increase in output. There are only two places to look for it. One is a qualitative improvement in the operations themselves—operational efficiency—and, of course, increased capacity, with which this Bill is most closely concerned.
  Within the industry itself we are beginning to realise things that we should have realised a long time ago. For example, we have considered that a third of the manshifts worked in the industry were true coal-getting shifts. We now find that is not correct. It is more like one quarter of the shifts. The men replaced by the final mechanisation at the face ends have not got on to the true coal-getting process. To that extent, I think that the industry has a great deal to worry about.
  One of the problems of the industry has been what I call the question of the balance of the industry. For far too long the industry has gone from one extreme to the other—from being overenthusiastic about first one particular bandwagon and then another. For example, we had the great drive to get
  1398
  the 15,000-tons-a-week face. What is needed is not the maximisation of output from one face but the optimisation of output from each face to maximum colliery capacity. It is to those objectives that the coal industry should devote its whole energies with a view to meeting this great extra demand for energy.
  I hope, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that I have met my five-minute deadline.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Dead on time.
  6.30 p.m.
  Mr. D. E. Thomas: I, too, shall try to be brief. I want to welcome warmly the provisions of Clause 1 to introduce the compensation scheme. There are few of us from the coal mining or slate quarrying areas of Wales who have not seen the terrible price paid in physical suffering by members of our families in those communities and people there who have contracted this vicious industrial disease, pneumoconiosis. They have had to depend in the past on the very low level of industrial injuries and national insurance benefit for pneumoconiosis sufferers.
  That benefit is inadequate and has long been recognised as being so by anyone who has had direct experience of individual cases of the disease. The levels of the basic disablement pension and the special hardship allowance and unemployability supplement have been totally unrelated to the real suffering. With the introduction of this new scheme we are moving, at least concerning the coal industry, to a position in which there will be some relationship between the degree of compensation and the extent of the suffering.
  However, there are basic issues about the administration of pneumoconiosis medical panels which remain to be analysed. I find, for example, that the Industrial Injuries Advisory Council's study, published in Command 5443, is totally inadequate in its analysis of the injustices which I have found in the operation of pneumoconiosis medical panels. I hope that the Royal Commission on Civil Liability and Compensation for Personal Injury will recommend a comprehensive industrial injuries scheme for all industries to cover cases in which a sympathetic medical board is satisfied that an illness arises out of and in the course of a particular job.

  1399
  What I am particularly concerned about in relation to pneumoconiosis medical panels is the inadequacy of the radio-graphical evidence when diagnosing the percentage of pneumoconiosis disability. The status of related chest and heart conditions, such as tuberculosis, in relation to qualifying for benefit should be totally reappraised by the Royal Commission, as should all these issues. I hope that this will happen when the Royal Commission comes to report.
  Equally we are concerned about the paltry level of death benefits so far available when a sufferer dies. I have seen recent cases of widows of sufferers who were in receipt of 100 per cent. disability pension when alive having been subjected to the final cruelty and indignity of postmortem examinations of their husbands to obtain an abysmally small widow's benefit. In many cases the cause of death is described as cardiac failure, or something else, and although this cardiac failure can be a direct consequence of pneumoconiosis, no widow's benefit is paid. I am determined that this practice should cease and that all widows of pneumoconiosis sufferers should receive death benefit as of right whenever pneumoconiosis has been diagnosed.
  The payment of percentage disability must also be called into question. In too many cases pneumoconiosis sufferers who are diagnosed at 10 per cent. disability know full well that this progressive disease will increase their disability and that total disability is only a matter of time. There are many men in my constituency, particularly in the 50–60 age group, who are on a low level of income because they have been diagnosed at only 10 per cent. disability despite their being unable to work at any full-time job. The whole structure of percentage disability must be reviewed.
  I want to mention quickly a detail of the coal industry scheme. One major group of people in my constituency are excluded from any compensation. I do not want to criticise the NUM's decision—recorded at paragraph 8 of Appendix A of the Coal Industry Examination Final Report—not to support claims at common law, but I am concerned that the current levels of lump sum compensation in the majority of cases are only 30 per cent. of what the more severe
  1400
  cases could get through common law litigation.
  I have taken advice on this matter and I understand that in current claims, which will now be withdrawn, the less severe cases are now getting more by way of lump sum compensation than they might have got at common law, but the more severely disabled cases are getting substantially less. I should like the Minister to comment on that matter.
  I am also concerned about the arbitrary time scale of the scheme, which has already been mentioned, and the question of the benefits for people who have commuted their benefits under the Workmen's Compensation Act.
  I should like finally to draw the attention of the House to a substantial group of pneumoconiosis sufferers who will not be compensated. They are employed in an extractive industry which was not taken into public ownership in 1947, as ought to have happened. Most of my experience of pneumoconiosis sufferers is derived from the hundreds of men in the slate industry in North Wales who have suffered throughout their working lives, with disgustingly low wages as compared with wages in the coal industry. This is an extractive industry. They are now denied access to the compensation scheme, to the type and level of compensation which will be payable to their brothers in the coal industry. I have raised this issue with the Department in correspondence, and I have not been satisfied with the replies I have received to date.
  I do not accept the reasoning that the public and social responsibility to workers who are suffering from the same disease in a private industry does not lie with the Government. I believe that the public responsibility to workers who are suffering the same diseases cannot be set aside because the particular industry in which they are working is not in public ownership. This point was made very forcibly in a letter from Gwynedd County Council to the Secretary of State for Energy on 17th February, which no doubt he received, the contents of which I shall not quote.
  According to the Digest of Pneumoconiosis Statistics, 815 people in other mining and quarrying activities were paid benefit at 31st December 1971, but I have

  1401
  not been able to get detailed figures for the slate industry in North Wales. In my estimate, however, the cost of either extending the NCB scheme to these men or their dependants or of setting up a parallel scheme financed, as this scheme is, mainly from Government sources would be minimal as compared with the total cost of the coal industry scheme.
  These men have suffered and still suffer from the same disease. Are the Government going to say that men who have suffered exploitation by private enterprise are less entitled to compensation than those who are now in publicly-owned industries? That is an argument which I cannot and will not accept. The people in my constituency who are suffering from this vicious disease will not accept it, and neither will the Transport and General Workers' Union. I look for a positive statement from the Minister that the Government will discharge their responsibilities towards the slate quarry men who suffer from pneumoconiosis.
  6.38 p.m.
  Mr. Gwilym Roberts: I shall also maintain the timing which previous speakers have set and keep within five minutes.
  I welcome the Bill. It will have great advantages for my constituents. I shall not develop the very good work that has been done by some of my hon. Friends in covering Clause 1, but I have hundreds, if not thousands, of constituents who are affected by the clause. I ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to look again at the pre-1948 commuted cases. I have had several representations on this subject. There being, I understand, no more than about 8,000 people involved, I am sure that the cost factor for the inclusion of this would certainly not be prohibitive.
  I want also to comment on the other clauses and to stress what my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Golding) has pointed out—that is, that there are other important development areas, in Staffordshire in particular, apart from Selby. In my constituency we have already seen some developments under the present Government, but we are looking forward to other developments taking place, and fairly quickly.
  1402
  I do not wish to cast any doubts or to take a bitter attitude. My right hon. Friend will know that the mining situation has changed over the past few years. We know from the history of mining that if people become drunk on North Sea oil, or if there is a startling breakthrough in nuclear energy, the situation of the mining industry will again change. It is vital that these developments should go forward as quickly as possible. It is all-important that mining development should form an integral part of the development of the community. Mining and housing developments are proposed in south Staffordshire, and should be tied together. If the mining community is to make progress the environment, in terms of housing, other facilities, and mining, must be developed as a whole. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will look carefully at that point.
  I welcome the Bill, which represents a major step forward for the mining industry.
  6.41 p.m.
  Mr. John Mendelson: Although the provisions of the Bill are largely non-controversial, and although we have only a limited amount of time at our disposal, I nevertheless submit that this is an important measure in human terms and is one of the most important measures debated during this parliamentary Session.
  Over the years many hon. Members have tried to persuade the National Coal Board that there is a need for compensation for the widows of those who have died from the industrial disease of pneumoconiosis. If they could all assemble spiritually together here—if they are not present now—and express their profound feeling, they would say that at last justice will be done in many cases. Many of us who over the years have had long conversations with the widows concerned and have made appeals and attempts and have failed, will know exactly what I have in mind.
  I wish to speak about the position of those widows who are treated differently from other widows. It is essential that everyone who knows of such cases should bear witness and support the appeal made so movingly and convincingly by my hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton (Mr. Wilson). In supporting what he said I wish to quote one case of a widow

  1403
  of a miner from the South Yorkshire coalfield who wrote to me from an address in Hoyland Common. This morning I received a second letter. When she first wrote telling me that she would receive only £150 in compensation I advised her to see a senior area officer of the National Union of Mineworkers. I said that I was sure that she would receive a sympathetic reception. She has sent me a copy of the reply from that senior officer of the NUM, Yorkshire area. It says:
  "The widows of men who died after 26th January 1970 in many cases were given considerable sums, and rightly so, whilst the widows of men who died before 26th January 1970 were given a pittance of £300 or £150, as in your case. You can rest assured that this union in Yorkshire will continue to press for changes in the agreement which will bring to you, if we are successful, an increase in the measly allowance you have been awarded under the terms of the pneumoconiosis scheme."
  I ask my right hon. Friend, who has such profound experience of the industry, to take up this case as expressed by one of the senior officers of the union in our region, and to make it his business to put the matter right before the Bill is enacted after Third Reading.
  This is not the occasion for a general far-reaching debate on the future of the coal industry. However, when we have such large plans for the future of the industry this matter should be dealt with straight away so that the surviving widows may feel that, while many millions of pounds will be spent in future on the industry, their cases will be put right immediately. I know that no one has more profound feelings on the subject than the Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary. Sometimes it is useful and necessary for Ministers to know the strength of feeling amongst those directly concerned and to know that we shall not rest till the matter has been put right.
  6.46 p.m.
  Mr. John Hannam: Since my arrival in the House nearly five years ago—sometimes it seems a much longer period—I have attended most of the debates on the coal industry. I have always been deeply impressed by the depth of knowledge and the understanding shown by hon. Members on both sides.
  Although many Government supporters who represent coal mining constituencies speak with deep authority about the coal industry—as this short but excellent
  1404
  debate has shown—the House has a deep understanding of the nature of this vital industry. The speeches from both sides have contributed valuable objectivity to a debate on a Bill which is essentially non-controversial and which at first sight is of a technical rather than of an emotional nature. The speeches pointing out the horrors of the dreaded dust disease, from which some miners suffer, have introduced an element of emotion, which has just added stark reality to what on the face of it appears to be just another piece of Government legislation. Despite the uncontentious nature of the Bill, the House has seized the opportunity to hold a worthwhile discussion about our coal industry, especially in the light of the recent pay award and its effect on coal prices.
  Some very important questions have been raised relating to coal supplies in different parts of the country following the new types of development which will take place. Questions have been raised about our general energy problems. Many specific queries have been raised about the effect of the various clauses of the Bill, with which I hope the Under-Secretary will be able to deal. I am sure that he will be able to remove some of the doubts and worries that would otherwise have been raised in Committee.
  We welcome the general objectives of the Bill, although in Committee we shall wish to examine in detail the implications of the new powers which are accorded to the National Coal Board by the clauses dealing with the withdrawal of support, copyhold rights and opencast mining. My hon. Friends the Members for Bosworth (Mr. Butler), Howden (Sir P. Bryan) and Barkston Ash (Mr. Alison) have raised important points about their constituents' fears and worries about the effects of some aspects of the Bill.
  Regarding the proposals for compensating pneumoconiosis victims, from a personal point of view, as an officer of our all-party disablement group, and as someone who has endeavoured to help ex-miners suffering from this dreadful affliction. I wholeheartedly welcome the Government's intention to provide £100 million in grants to enable compensation to be paid without the need for long legal processes to establish liability. Wearing another hat, I can only wish that the same expediency could be applied in other cases such as vaccine-damaged

  1405
  children. However, that is another issue for another day.
  My hon. Friend the Member for New Forest (Mr. McNair-Wilson) and many others referred to those original pneumoconiotics who commuted their pensions before 1948 under the Workmen's Compensation Act. The figure ranges between 8,000 and 10,000 who did this and who lost their common law rights to further compensation. As the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Wilson) illustrated so graphically, there is a moral obligation to give some further assistance to those mainly over 70-year-olds, and I want to press the Under-Secretary about this. Can he say how much would be required to meet this moral obligation? He knows that the whole House would like to press for this further assistance, and the inclusion of the pre-1970 widows is another extension of the grant which this House would want to see examined fully in Committee.
  The hon. Member for Hemsworth (Mr. Woodall) spoke of the effect of just a two day's difference in timing and of the hundreds, indeed thousands, of pounds which could be involved in compensation. It may prove to be necessary to increase the grant figure, and we have heard suggestions of an increase from £100 million to £150 million. At some stage in the tripartite discussions, obviously it was considered that a larger amount would be required to consider these cases.
  Apart from those reservations, we welcome the agreement which has been reached between the National Coal Board and the unions concerned. It is a great step forward.
  Clause 2 deals with a matter which was not foreshadowed by the tripartite agreement—the "withdrawal of support" to enable coal to be worked. Here we enter an area which needs careful study and understanding if the wrong conclusions are not to be drawn by the general public.
  The fear of subsidence—the caving in of roads and the collapse of buildings and homes—is a real one for residents in mining areas. My hon. Friend the Member for Barkston Ash referred to the need for pillar support to be created under living communities. I consider this to be of vital importance, and I hope that the Under-Secretary will deal with the point. It is vital that every possible
  1406
  action be taken by the National Coal Board to avoid subsidence.
  My hon. Friend the Member for New Forest used the analogy of the sponge cake. He illustrated graphically the effect of taking out the middle layer, causing a downward movement of the upper layer. I remember being extremely partial when I was a child to the jam in the middle of a sponge cake. I soon learned the trick of squeezing the two parts together in order to get at it before anyone else. However, the jam here is that vital commodity, coal. As a nation, we have to have coal.
  The new fields being prospected and developed are needed to produce the extra 10 million to 20 million tons of coal a year for which the country hopes. But the existing rights to mine coal and thereby withdraw its natural support at 500 or 1,000 yards below the surface date back to the 1938 Act and do not cover all the new areas now being prospected. They are now before us for up-dating and alteration.
  From my observation of the NCB's modern procedures and planning, I know that a great deal is done to avoid subsidence in these new areas. I have been impressed by the consultations taking place with the inhabitants of the Selby area. Local residents are being somewhat reassured by the details given to them of the environmental protection plans instituted by the NCB. Nevertheless, there are aspects of drainage and other geological factors which we shall need to examine carefully in Committee.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Howden and my hon. Friend the Member for Barkston Ash raised the important matter of advance warning notices. The present rules will need to be extended. Perhaps the Minister can say what length of advance notice will be given under present agreements. A notice in the London Gazette and others in one or two local newspapers are not enough. Will the hon. Gentleman consider putting notices in all local newspapers plus, possibly, a national daily newspaper circulating in the area, and the posting of public notices covering the whole area? It is vitally important in environmental matters to ensure that people are given the fullest possible notice of proposed changes.

  1407
  The interesting feature about the copyhold clause is that most people to whom I have spoken who live in mining areas have never heard of copyhold rights. They date back to feudal times, so probably that is understandable. But, after some of these discussions, the people to whom I have talked have rushed off to check their own deeds in order to see whether they have been missing out on 1p per ton on the coal extracted beneath them. I hope that the Board will not be submerged in copyhold claims as a result of this debate.
  The speeding up of the legal processes to enable the working of coal to take place in our new coalfields, with a compensation period of 12 years, seems a reasonable improvement. But there are technical points which we shall have to discuss in Committee, especially with regard to the length of time and whether it should not be extended to 30 years rather than just a period of 12 years.
  Clauses 4 and 5 result from the tripartite report and relate to open-cast sites. Here we move into the difficult area of environmental factors. It is only in the context of our energy crisis and the national need for 15 million tons of open-cast coal by 1985 that the compulsory powers proposed are acceptable. It is a question of need versus amenity, and hon. Members on both sides of the House have raised their constituency problems.
  The area in which the major Selby development will take place is mainly a rural area, and the development represents a tremendous change in the environment. The previous 10-year provisions of the Act will be superseded by a 20-year compulsory acquisition period. This includes a five-year period for the agricultural use of land. As a result of the matters raised in this debate, the Committee will obviously consider the possibility of reducing the period from 20 to 15 years.
  Of all the forecasts and targets being set by the Secretary of State, the one which is attainable is the open-cast coal target of 15 million tons by 1985. But the environmental implications and the effect on agriculture of a total of 14,000 acres of land being used on the 70 sites proposed are of great significance and need to be considered carefully.
  1408
  The closure of footpaths and bridle ways has always caused many problems. It will have to be handled carefully by the NCB. It has a great deal of experience in these matters already, but I hope that it will ensure that the acquisition of routes, bridle paths and footpaths during the process of mining will not result in the loss of any which may not have been proved and registered by constant usage. Clause 6 and those preceding it will no doubt be examined carefully by all the responsible national organisations, and I trust that any representations which they wish to make will be received by the Minister.
  The Bill represents a continuing process of rehabilitation of the coal industry. It started well before the oil crisis of 1973. When I served on the Standing Committee which considered the last Coal Industry Bill in February 1973, I recall the then Minister for Industry, Mr. Tom Boardman, introducing his £1,100 million aid for the coal industry which was welcomed by the industry and by all the members of the Committee. He provided for a doubling of the existing pensions, for redundancy payments, for increased stocks, and for £210 million to keep open uneconomic pits.
  Long years of decline had ended. The decline had been caused by a basic un-competitiveness of coal during the 1950s and 1960s when cheap oil was the order of the day. A Conservative Government halted that decline and began the process of revitalising the coal industry. Since then the industry has rarely been out of the headlines. It is relevant to the Bill to consider the situation now facing coal and to project a little way into the future. All hon. Members have shown that they have the interests of the coal industry at heart. I am sure that they will agree that all the tripartite plans in the world, all the production targets and all the investment programmes involving thousands of millions of pounds will be to no avail if the industry prices itself out of the market.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth stressed the importance of linking productivity with wage increases. We all regretted the failure last November to agree on the productivity scheme put forward by the Board. It was a blow to the Government as well. We ask now for a link to be established between wage increases and productivity.

  1409
  My hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Mr. Skeet), in his usual detailed and excellent speech, dealt in detail with the likely production figures and the shortfall on the targets laid down by the Government. I hope that the Under-Secretary of State will give us some idea of the latest coal production figures for the current year and confirm what the shortfall will be below the original target of £120 million tons.
  Sir Derek Ezra the Chairman of the National Coal Board, in one of his appraisals of the coal industry given at the NUM Conference last year, said:
  "If we are to remain competitive and go on providing real improvements in earnings, we must do so out of increased productivity."
  The Secretary of State in his interim report to Parliament on the tripartite examination said:
  "It is now quite clear that there is a secure and indeed prosperous future for coal, providing it can retain its new-found competitive position."
  He later said:
  "However, we recognise and accept—as I am sure does everybody in the industry—that the future prospects of the industry should be determined by its long-term competitiveness."—[Official Report, 18th June 1974; Vol. 875, c. 226.]
  I asked the right hon. Gentleman then for an assurance that any investment in future would be related to increased productivity and output.
  I now ask whether the coal industry itself can survive the pressure which is building up as a result of large wage increases. Perhaps the Under-Secretary of State will tell the House what the price per therm of coal-generated power will be as compared with oil after current increases in costs are included. The gap widened considerably last year to approximately 30 per cent. It is now narrowing again. With oil prices remaining fairly stable—and there is a possibility that they could even marginally drop—the crossover point when coal becomes more costly than oil becomes ever nearer as one wage claim follows another. By the end of the year there will possiby be a difference of only a penny or so per therm.
  Mr. Alexander Wilson: In weighing up the competitiveness or otherwise of the mining industry, why does the hon. Gentleman do so on the basis of pounds
  1410
  shillings and pence? Why does he not put a price on the suffering of the men who are working in the industry? Why does he not put that into the scales against the cost of coal?
  Mr. Hannam: On that basis I am sure that we would not wish to continue with an industry which caused such suffering. It is clear that that would be the attitude of hon. Members on both sides of the House. I am only substantiating the comments of the Secretary of State and the comments of the Chairman of the Coal Board—namely, that coal must remain competitive. We want as much coal as possible from our pits. We want our miners to be rewarded for the dangerous and difficult job that they undertake. Surely Labour hon. Members, and especially Ministers in the Department of Energy, with their wide knowledge and background within the National Union of Mineworkers, will agree that in a balanced four-part energy system that we are lucky enough to have, with oil, gas, coal and nuclear power, it is vital that the coal industry remains as competitive as possible with its vast indigenous resources.
  The Secretary of State has recognised the four-part economic structure and the rôle that coal has to play as a competitive fuel, but even he must be deeply and inwardly concerned by the attitude being adopted in the wage negotiations which have taken place. I emphasise that in supporting the Bill and others before it we are endeavouring to provide a better working life for our miners and better assistance to the National Coal Board in its efforts to secure coal supplies. Those efforts will be to no avail if we have a continuing and uncontrolled spiral of wage inflation. Already there is evidence of private and industrial consumers cancelling their plans to switch over to solid fuels. The CEGB would like to have a great deal more coal available at the right price. It is having to continue the construction of oil-fired generating plants.
  We support the Bill all the way. We support it in principle and we support many of the details within it, especially the provisions for the pneumonconiosis sufferers and their families. Some queries have been raised on some technicalities and I hope that we shall have a few of the answers when the Under-Secretary of State replies.

  1411
  I hope that the Under-Secretary of State will accept the pressure on both sides of the House to extend the grant aid being given to the pneumoconiosis victims and their families. Further, I hope that he will recognise the fear expressed by hon. Members that is felt by people outside the House that this great industry, which appeared to be in decline but now has all our support in expanding and modernising again with new plant and new research projects, will allow itself to lose its competitiveness and, therefore, to lose its long-term prosperity.
  The Bill is much welcomed on this side of the House and with some amendments in Committee it will constitute a marked and welcome step forward in improving a great industry. I hope that we shall enable it to pass into Committee at the end of its Second Reading.
  7.8 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Energy (Mr. Alex Eadie): This has been a wide-ranging debate going well beyond the somewhat narrow issues of the Bill itself. I am glad that has been the case. The main aim of the Bill has been to facilitate the enormous task of getting the coal the nation needs—surely one of the most important tasks before the country.
  After the trials and vicissitudes of the past, it is a great personal privilege for one who has spent a lifetime in the industry to be associated with the resurgence of coal as a basic rather than a residual factor in our energy situation. Over the past 18 months the complete reversal in the structure of energy prices following the fivefold increase in oil prices has dramatically transformed the future outlook for the coal industry.
  Last year was distorted because of the strike, but in 1973 coal supplied some 38 per cent. of our total energy needs and we had difficulty in exporting less than 3 million tons. It is true that ours was still far and away the largest coal industry in Western Europe. But does anyone now believe that we would not be in a very much more favourable position if the industry had not been allowed to run down?
  The neglect of the past years cannot be redeemed overnight, and we have many other things to do. The way is now open to further development of nuclear
  1412
  power. We have to secure the speedy development of North Sea resources in the interests of the community as a whole. We are building a comprehensive programme of measures on energy conservation which reflects the need both for immediate savings on the balance of payments and for longer-term change in attitudes on the part of consumers. We are playing a full part in international co-operation on energy matters. But a central strand of our new energy policy is the commitment to the long-term future of the coal industry that has emerged from the coal industry examination which we conducted with the unions and the National Coal Board.
  We have halted the rundown, and a modest increase of output is in prospect. I only wish it could be more, and I am sure that that goes for everybody in the industry. Wherever I have gone in my travels—I have visited every coalfield in the industry—I have said to the miners that more coal for the country means better schools, houses and pensions provision. I believe that there is a new spirit of expansion in the industry. Now that the wages issue has been settled and a productivity scheme agreed, I believe that the coal will be forthcoming.
  Mr. Peter Rees: Will the Minister give way?
  Mr. Eadie: No. The hon. and learned Gentleman did not come in until the middle of the debate.
  Coal has an unparelleled opportunity to win for itself a viable, secure, competitive future with the assurance that short-term fluctuations in the price of other fuels will not be allowed to interfere with its development. The substantial reserves of gas and oil now under development are in no way a threat to the opportunities facing the industry. Our reserves of coal are even greater and we shall certainly not be so rich in other fuels as to be able to afford to undervalue coal.
  It has been said that not only is there a Selby coalfield: there are other rich new finds as well. As my hon. Friends have said, there are new exciting coalfields all over Britain. We are boring more for coal than for oil—in Oxfordshire, Eastern Nottinghamshire, Seafield off the Scottish coast and the area in

  1413
  Staffordshire that my hon. Friends have mentioned.
  Mr. Skeet rose—
  Mr. Eadie: I will not give way.
  It is because of this new importance of coal in our national economy that we make no excuse for the proposals in the Bill, which are designed to iron out some of the practical and procedural snags which could so easily hold up coal production and deny the country the valuable contribution that the industry would otherwise be able to offer. At the same time, with all the emphasis that must rightly be given to the paramount need to solve our economic problems and to allow coal to help fully in that task, we must never forget the human aspects—the need to respect the dignity and rights of the individual and to have regard for our environmental heritage. We believe that the Bill holds a fair balance.
  Indeed, the Bill starts off in Clause 1 with a matter which must concern every Member of this House—the relief of suffering. In this case I am talking about pneumoconiosis, for many years recognised as one of the greatest evils attendant on the coal industry. Great efforts have been made by all concerned over the years to deal with the airborne dust problem, unfortunately accentuated by the mechanisation which in other ways has made the miner's life less arduous. Nobody is more pleased than my right hon. Friend and myself, as coming from the mining industry, with the considerable advances that have been made. The figures tell the story. The number of new cases in 1950 was over 4,000. By 1960 it had almost come down to 3,000. Last year there were only just over 500 new cases.
  This progress has been achieved by the fullest co-operation of all concerned—management, unions, the Mines Inspectorate, the mining equipment manufacturers, the research institutes and so on—and I should like to pay tribute to them all. The main effort must be directed to tackling the problem at source, where the dust is produced, but standards have been improved all round. New methods of sampling have been put into operation, and stricter dust controls have recently
  1414
  been introduced by the NCB in anticipation, I understand, of new statutory regulations which are expected later this year. All this is contributing to lowering the incidence of the disease.
  The effort must go on. At present there is a tragic legacy of the past of nearly 40,000 registered sufferers. A good many cases would have to be taken through the courts. Legal expenses would be heavy and it would take a long time. Some of the sufferers would be unable to provide the necessary evidence of things that may have happened many years ago. Some may not survive to hear the results of their case. That is the answer to the hon. Member who raised this issue and to any criticism of the agreement negotiated by the NUM and the NCB. We want to give people financial provision when they are alive, rather than when they are dead, and to avoid long-drawn-out legal processes.
  For this reason the whole House must welcome the scheme that the National Coal Board and the unions have worked out together. It is with pride that I refer to the provision in Clause 1 of £100 million to help the Board meet the costs of compensating the existing sufferers. This is the finest possible example of the regard for the individual which the present Government have and always will have.
  But though other examples may not have gained the same appeal in human terms, there are individual rights which we have not forgotten in drawing up the provisions of the Bill. It has been necessary, as my right hon. Friend and I have sought to show, to strengthen the powers of the National Coal Board in the daunting task it has in front of it.
  This simply cannot be done without some erosion of the rights of the individual. The provisions in the Bill permit the NCB to withdraw support from some land owners at the margins of coal workings where their rights are now in doubt. They permit the Board to mine coal from under land where there is the retained interest of a former copyhold tenancy without the delays involved in seeking permission from owners who in many cases might be difficult to identify. The Bill resurrects compulsory powers for the temporary occupation and use of land for

  1415
  opencast coal working and a new procedure for the temporary closure or diversion of footpaths. But full provision is made for the individuals who object to be able to make their case and to have it fully taken into account, if necessary by a public inquiry.
  The Board and the Department care about the environment—quite apart from the fact that the Countryside Act constrains them to do so. No application to work an opencast site is made before the Board has gone fully into the local situation and tried its best to meet the wishes of local opinion in regard to the area to be used and the methods of working and so on. I can assure the House that in considering such applications the Secretary of State gives every consideration to the need to minimise the impact on the environment and on the people living in the locality. Conditions are imposed with regard to methods of working and the way the site is to be restored, and in drawing them up we invariably consult the Ministry of Agriculture where farming is concerned and the Department of the Environment and the Welsh Office or Scottish Office as the case may be.
  The expansion of the opencast coal programme from 10 million tons to 15 million tons a year which was announced in the reports of the coal industry examination is absolutely essential to the future economic well-being of this country. This will mean correspondingly more sites, but in the ways I have outlined I give a pledge to those concerned that everything possible will be done to minimise the nuisance and the damage to the local amenity, to complete operations as speedily as can be and to restore the land as attractively and beneficially as it is possible to do.
  Several hon. Members have mentioned the wives who were widowed before or after 1970 and the men who had commuted their pension rights. I do not want there to be any misunderstanding. This is not a scheme put forward by the Government. What the Bill provides is the grant of £100 million that the Government decided on as an act of compassion and concern for those who worked in the industry. The scheme has been drawn up between the NCB and the NUM and any amendment of it would require to be negotiated between those two parties. The Government are proud to make their con-
  1416
  tribution, but I emphasise that it is a scheme which will be drawn up between the two parties.
  As for the points which were made about how people will be affected depending on whether their cases were dealt with before or after 1970 and the matter of commutation, I am sure that this debate will be read by many outside the House. Therefore I hope that my hon. Friends who raised these points will feel that amendment of the Bill will not solve the problems they raise. I repeat that this debate will be read widely and those points will be borne in mind.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Mr. Golding) was right to say that the scheme had been drawn up between the National Coal Board and the unions. If there is any argument or dispute in the area which he represents, it is a matter for the employers to consider. If the pottery employers want to introduce a scheme, they are at liberty to do so. It is a matter for them.
  I believe that great credit should be given to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy for the fact that we have managed to make a contribution of £100 million. My right hon. Friend managed to achieve that sum under great difficulties. Therefore, I hope that the House will not be unmindful of that important consideration.
  I have already exhausted the time at my disposal and I hope that the House will not consider it discourteous if I do not reply to a number of the points which have been made. Many of them are important, but I hope that we shall be able to discuss them further in Committee.
  In conclusion, I should like to stress the mutual nature of our strategy for the coal industry. It is up to management and unions alike to grasp the great prize of a stable, expanding and competitive picture which now lies before it. It is up to the Government and the community as a whole to substantiate their commitment to such a future for the industry. I do not think any Government could have done more to demonstrate our commitment than have the present Labour Government—who, after all, have had only 11 months in office. I am proud to be associated with this administration. Furthermore, the Bill

  1417
  gives evidence of the continuing nature of that commitment. It shows compassion and understanding for those in the industry who are affected by the legislative procedures. Accordingly, I hope that the House will give the Bill a Second Reading.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 40 (Committal of Bills).

  COAL INDUSTRY [MONEY]
  Queen's Recommendation having been signified—
  Resolved,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide for grants to the National Coal Board to meet expenditure under a scheme providing for compensation for pneumoconiosis, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of grants to the National Coal Board towards expenditure incurred by the Board under or for the purposes of the industry's pneumoconiosis compensation scheme, as defined in the said Act.—[Mr. Thomas Cox.]

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL
  As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL
    New Clause 1

      PUBLICATION OF ACCOUNTS
      '(1) For the purpose of securing an economic distribution of resources, an authority shall, for each trading activity, including new construction work and/or repair and maintenance work carried out by its own direct labour organisation, keep separate accounts and publish annually a report and accounts which shall show—

      (a) the financial outcome of the year's trading in this activity;

      (b) the outcome of all major projects, including all new construction projects, completed during the year;

      (c) any savings or losses made by comparison with the sums which would have been payable to a contractor if he had carried out the work.

      (2) The Secretary of State may provide by order for any additional information to be included in the accounts when these are necessary to establish the value for money obtained from any trading or building activity'.—[Mr. Teddy Taylor.]
      Brought up, and read the First time.
      7.22 p.m.
      Mr. Teddy Taylor: I beg to move, That the Clause be read a Second time.
      This is an important clause which I hope the House will accept. It concerns direct labour departments in Scottish local authorities.
      A number of hon. Members will be surprised to hear that direct labour departments are not defined as municipal trading organisations, although they carry out a great deal of building work and involve the spending of an enormous amount of ratepayers' money. I am sure that in some cases the work is carried out profitably but in other cases the work is undertaken unprofitably and without a great deal of efficiency.
      We propose in the clause not to restrict the work of the direct labour departments but to ensure that the truth is told about the amount of money which those departments spend and the extent to which they are competitive and efficient by comparison with private industry. We want the facts to be told about the performance of direct labour departments.
      We put forward these proposals for a number of reasons. We believe that it is in the interests of all Scottish ratepayers that the details of the accounts of direct labour departments should be known. This does not happen at present. I am sure you will recall, Mr. Deputy Speaker, when you were Lord Provost of Glasgow, that in that city trading organisations, such as the transport department, published separate accounts and gave all relevant details. In that way the ratepayers and the council could come to a decision about the effectiveness of a trading organisation. But direct labour departments which spend a great deal of money are not under such an obligation. In the new clause we are trying to remedy that situation.
      There is a further consideration to be borne in mind. This is a period when the building industry in Scotland faces short-time working because of cuts in public building and in some areas a decline in house-building. Therefore, it is wrong that direct labour departments should expand at the expense of private industry and private contracting organisations. In many cases we have not the slightest idea

      1419
      whether those departments are efficient, effective or in a position to compete fairly with private industry.
      Mr. Leslie Spriggs: The hon. Gentleman has made an assertion that direct labour departments have no idea of what the work is all about. I remind him that they are specialists in this type of work and give ratepayers the best value for money. I do not understand how the hon. Gentleman can make such a statement.
      Mr. Taylor: I was pointing out that in some councils the ratepayers are not aware of the performance of these departments. If the hon. Gentleman is correct and the departments are efficient and effective and can compete fairly with private industry, it is in the community's interest that the accounts should be published and all the facts displayed. That is all we are proposing in the clause. We are saying that direct labour departments should publish separate accounts giving full details of their profitability and the work they undertake. The Minister should have no objection to the clause since it is aimed at ensuring that all the financial facts are published.
      The third reason why the clause is relevant in present circumstances is that in Glasgow we have had a number of reports about grave concern on the part of the elected council in respect of the efficiency and effectiveness of the city's direct labour organisation. Glasgow has a Labour-controlled council and the convener of the housing Department is concerned about the direct labour department. There have been complaints about the lack of proper supervision, outdated procedures and many other factors. Furthermore, the building performance in the city of Glasgow is regarded as deplorable. These are not my opinions but are opinions expressed publicly by the Labour chairman of the housing committee. Therefore, we feel that the time has come for the financial facts to be revealed.
      It might be argued that some checks already exist. However, the only effective financial check, apart from the work of the various council committees, is the district audit. That is not a comprehensive service and operates only after pro-
      1420
      jects have been completed. This is a matter of concern to Scottish ratepayers.
      I should like to give one example—and there are not many since it is difficult to get at the accounts. In Glasgow five years ago there was concern about the amount of money spent by the direct labour department on certain jobs. An independent inquiry was commissioned by the housing committee to look into losses of £3 million flowing from a direct labour department project. The inquiry concluded that the procedures in the department
      "virtually deprived the council of control over its own finances."
      7.30 p.m.
      Some people argue—I know that the hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Doig), who took a personal interest in establishing such a department in his own authority, takes this view—that the direct labour departments are efficient and effective and can stand fair competition with any private industry. If that is so, it is only fair and just that the departments should publish accounts in exactly the same way as any other trading department. Many trading departments in local authorities publish separate accounts. That is precisely what we are asking for in the clause: that the direct labour departments should be the same as the old transport departments in this respect.
      In the clause we first specify that there should be separate accounts for new work and for maintenance and repair work. We do so because it would be possible, and there have been indications that it has happened, for a direct labour department to quote an unreasonably low figure for a new building project and recover the money because it has a monopoly of maintenance work given by the local authority. Therefore, it is fair and reasonable that the accounts for new work and maintenance should be separate.
      Our second requirement is that the financial outcome of the year should be published in the accounts. The third is that for major projects separate accounts of the outcome should be published. Fourthly, we propose that there should be a statement of savings and losses made by comparison with what would have been paid if the job had been given to private industry.

      1421
      Under the Companies Acts firms must publish a great deal of information about all their activities. The clause does not conform strictly to the requirements of those Acts. In some respects we are little tighter. The reason is that whereas firms might regard some information as commercially confidential, the local authority's own department is in a special position of having, in most cases, a monopoly of maintenance work within the major authorities. Therefore, it is only fair and reasonable that they should publish this additional information.
      People in Scotland are worried about how the rates will go this year. There have been clear indications from some authorities—we had such an indication from the Grampians region only a few days ago—that rates might rise substantially. The House therefore has a duty to ensure that where savings can be made, they are made.
      I and some other Glasgow Members have our own views about the Glasgow direct labour department. But the clause is not directed against Glasgow in particular. I have had doubts and concern about the maintenance aspect of Glasgow Corporation, and the council itself has expressed doubts about the new work. We simply propose that detailed accounts of a direct labour department should be published so that the ratepayers may know, those who compete with the department may know and the council will have a full picture of the extent to which the department is saving the authority money or losing it.
      I approach the matter with suspicion and a certain degree of prejudice. I believe that in the long term direct labour is bad business for local authorities. Some Labour Members will take a contrary view, and they are entitled to do so. But, whether we take one point of view or another, there could be nothing wrong, and it could only be helpful and constructive, in a direct labour department publishing separate accounts for its new work and its repair work, and in revealing all. It would be helpful to local authorities and would help direct labour departments to become more efficient than might otherwise be the case.
      It might be a means of saving a great deal of money for local authorities, and
      1422
      it might help to control the rates burden. The Minister of State and other Scottish Ministers have recently expressed the view that local authorities must carefully watch their expenditure. If we are to take that view seriously, the first step should be to ensure that the ratepayers know the full facts about direct labour departments, some of which spend a great deal of money and some of which, in the instances I have quoted, overspend by a great deal.
      Mr. Peter Doig: The hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) said that I agreed with him about certain matters. That was a slightly misleading statement. What I told the hon. Gentleman was that when I was on the Dundee Corporation we started a direct labour department, the first result of which was that it cut the prices of new houses being built for the corporation. The second result was even more interesting. The private firms which had been tendering for those contracts reduced their prices for further contracts by no less than £300 a house. We had the remarkable situation that at a time when prices were rising, they could cut their prices by that amount.
      The first drawback of the clause is that the direct labour department is to be asked to carry out expensive accounting that would not otherwise be necessary. It has to show not only its own financial results but how they would compare if the contract had gone to unsuccessful tenderers. It is a bit much to expect a direct labour department to have to pay money to work out what would have happened if the contract had gone elsewhere. No other contractor has to do it. Why should a corporation direct labour department have to do it? It would mean unnecessary expense. If other people want to incur that expense, perhaps an independent body such as the Economic League, Aims of Industry or even the Conservative Party, there is nothing to stop them, but why should the ratepayers have to pay for an academic exercise?
      Mr. Teddy Taylor: Let us suppose that there is a fixed-price tender for a new building project, such as a new school, and the direct labour department puts in a tender for £900,000 and a private contractor puts in a tender for £1

      1423
      million, and the department ends up with a cost of £1½ million. It is only fair and reasonable that the figures should be published, but there is no way of establishing that without the requirement in the clause.
      Mr. Doig: The hon. Gentleman must be fully aware that at the end of every financial year the corporation publishes accounts, and if the direct labour department makes a loss over the year it cannot be hidden. It is published in the official reports. Therefore, there is no question of hiding anything.
      The hon. Gentleman is asking for direct labour departments to incur unnecessary expenditure that would cripple them. No large firm with its own maintenance squads would ever dream of going to the expense that the hon. Gentleman suggests, because it would increase the costs of running those squads, and there would be no point in doing it. It would be equally bad for a local authority which carries out repairs with its own repair squads to incur that expense.
      A second important point is that when they have a lean time private contractors can cut their prices a bit, to keep their labour force and to keep everything ticking over. They can also increase their prices in good times. It is noticeable to anyone else who has had to deal with such matters that there are much higher estimates for house building which will be carried out over the winter period than for house building to be carried out over the summer period. If direct labour departments were forced to do what the hon. Gentleman suggests it might be difficult to justify the exercise. I am sure that if he were a member of any council he would be the first to say "Why is the price much higher now than it was a couple of months ago?" There might be a reasonable explanation. The usual explanation is that it is more expensive to build in the winter in what is termed bad building weather.
      Local authorities, in carrying out maintenance and repair work, have no incentive to skimp the work because they are not out to make excessive profits. Their only concern is to keep their houses in good repair. A private firm may knock a few pounds off the cost of a repair job, but the council may find that repairs are required
      1424
      two years earlier than if the maintenance had been carried out properly in the first place. Admittedly, an efficient repair might be more expensive in the first place, but many corporations—I do not know about Glasgow, but I know about Dundee—often find that in the long term it is cheaper. Indeed, at the end of the day it is not only cheaper but more satisfactory for tenants.
      The hon. Gentleman suggested that direct labour departments should not only keep records of all the new work that is undertaken but individually price every major project. The hon. Gentleman is being unreasonable, and is attempting to increase the overhead expenditure of direct labour departments to the point where they are no longer able to compete economically with private firms.
      When the Dundee Corporation started its direct labour department it guaranteed regular employment all the year round to its workers. Private firms do not guarantee work all the year round. At least, they may do so now, but they did not at that time. Naturally, guaranteed and better conditions for workers must be paid for. We must consider whether it is worth paying extra and giving men guaranteed jobs all the year round, which is what most people get nowadays, or to employ them in the good weather period and to pay them off during the winter as many private building firms do.
      Mr. Teddy Taylor: The hon. Gentleman said that it would add greatly to expenditure if direct labour departments had to give details of the cost of each major project. Is he seriously suggesting that any direct labour department which completes a major school project or something like that does not know the cost?
      Mr. Doig: Of course it does.
      Mr. Teddy Taylor: Then why not tell us?
      Mr. Doig: Why do not the private firms tell? Why do they not publish the profits or losses that are made on jobs that they do? Because that information would be valuable to their competitors. If a direct labour department has to divulge information which could be useful to its competitors—we must bear in mind that it is restricted in the contracts for which

      1425
      it can compete—it would be tying a rope round its own neck.
      Many years ago I suggested that the Dundee Corporation should not tender for certain jobs because it would have to employ more men who would have to be employed all the year round. The reasonable thing was to allocate jobs which would keep them in work. That is better than the method that the hon. Gentleman attempts to justify of cut-throat competition which means that men are paid off in the winter and are left to scrounge for whatever jobs they can find. Men who are out of work in the winter have to be paid unemployment or other benefit. Therefore, at the end of the day it is a good thing for the ratepayers and taxpayers to have these men employed all the year round.
      In case the hon. Gentleman is in doubt, I am opposed to the new clause.
      7.45 p.m.
      Sir John Gilmour: The hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Doig) put his finger on the difficulty about the employment of direct labour when he said that the direct labour departments guarantee regular work all the year round. If we lived in equitable conditions and local authorities were able to budget on both new work and maintenance for almost the same amount year by year, that would possibly be something to aim for and to feel could be achieved, but, rightly or wrongly, the Government of the day have said that we need to reduce expenditure—on, for example, education building in Scotland—by a very large amount. Is it practical for direct labour departments in Glasgow, Dundee, Fife county or anywhere else to guarantee full employment to their men when the money currently being made available is likely to be drastically reduced?
      It is much easier to run on a more equitable basis when it comes to maintenance because it is possible to plan programmes forward year by year and to control the amount that is spent on houses, schools, and so on. However, when it comes to the provision of new capital building, I wonder whether it is practical to adopt the thesis developed by the hon. Member for Dundee, West.
      1426
      I think that it would be in the interests of ratepayers for the maximum amount of information on this subject to be published so that they could weigh the pros and cons. It might be that on some occasions they would say "We are happier to pay £x more because we guarantee regular employment", but there must come a time when people will get past the point of no return and will say "This is getting beyond a joke. We cannot go on doing that."
      If the maximum amount of information is published councillors and ratepayers can make up their minds on the facts before them rather than on the basis that something looks as if it ought to be all right. Therefore, I think that my hon. Friends are right to commend the keeping of accounts and the publishing of information.
      The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Mr. Bruce Millan): For a number of reasons I cannot recommend the House to accept the new clause.
      I do not wish to get involved in any great discussion about the merits of direct labour departments. Of course, they have considerable advantages, as a number of local authorities have found. Some of those advantages have been described by my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Doig).
      When a direct labour department is established it is important that the local authority ensures that it works in an efficient way. I certainly support that proposition. However, it is not only misleading, but inaccurate to pretend, as hon. Gentlemen opposite have done, that direct labour departments are inefficient and that competitive free enterprise gives better value for money.
      There has been criticism recently about the performance of Glasgow's direct labour department. There has been equal criticism about one well-known building contractor who was employed on the Knightswood modernisation scheme. That contractor's performance was so poor in every respect that the contract had to be terminated by the corporation before it was completed. There are many other instances of private builders producing extremely costly results on particular contracts. That is one of the difficulties about accepting the proposition that direct

      1427
      labour departments should not only have separate accounts, but that those accounts should somehow or other produce figures representing the savings or losses compared with the sums which would have been payable to private contractors to carry out the work.
      Unfortunately this is unlikely to be a practicable proposition. Unhappily, it is rare these days for the final sum paid to any contractor, whether a direct labour department or a private enterprise contractor, to bear much relationship to the original tender price. Because of variations in the contract, increased costs and the rest, quite considerable extra payments are made. Therefore to compare the eventual expenditure of the direct labour department with the original tender by a private enterprise competitor in an attempt to find some meaningful comparison of the performance of the department is unrealistic.
      There are two main considerations in this matter. The first is whether at the time the contract is let there is a proper comparison between the quotation by the direct labour department and any outside competitors. This is already provided for in existing legislation, because Section 81 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973 requires local authorities to make standing orders about contracts of this kind and to include in the standing orders provision for securing competition for such contracts. That provision applies to direct labour departments and private enterprise contractors equally. There is therefore nothing in the present situation which allows the local authority to give contracts to a direct labour department regardless of cost and without taking account of what could be available in the private enterprise market.
      Therefore, the arrangements for when the contract is let are provided for. If the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) now takes the view that he apparently takes about direct labour departments, that is odd, because his Government did not put a provision similar to the new clause in the 1973 Act. That would have been perfectly appropriate. They took the view which I take now that the provision in the 1973 Act was satisfactory and adequate.
      My second point concerns the proper accounts of the direct labour department,
      1428
      or any other department of the local authority. For the reasons I have given it is not practicable to produce accounts in the terms provided for in the clause. Of course, I accept that it is desirable that proper accounts should be kept and published. I cannot recommend that we accept the clause as being satisfactory, but I fully accept the general principle of keeping proper books and accounts.
      As for accounting requirements, a report is to be received from the professional organisation concerned, the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy, which will deal with the matters covered by the clause. When we have the report we shall consider the views of that body, and since the Secretary of State has the power to provide by regulation for what should be contained in the accounts of local authorities, we shall take account of anything said here which would produce the desired result. It therefore seems sensible to wait for the report of that body.
      Section 97 of the 1973 Act provided for the setting-up of a commission for local authority accounts, and the controller of audit is appointed under the same section. If the commission or the controller of audit make representations about this or any other matter concerning local authority accounts we shall naturally take them fully into consideration in any regulations we might wish to make. However, we cannot do it by means of the new clause.
      To sum up, I confirm that where there is a direct labour department, a system in which we see many advantages, we are anxious that it should work efficiently. Secondly, we are interested in keeping local authority expenditure down in the current year. We are also interested in seeing that local authority expenditure is properly controlled and value for money is obtained. A circular will soon go out to local authorities concerning the problems of 1975–76.
      However, part of what the clause is designed to achieve is already provided for in existing legislation which the Conservatives thought adequate when they were in Government and which we still consider to be adequate. Other parts of the clause are completely impracticable. Other parts may be practicable in view of what is said by the report from the professional body concerned. In so

      1429
      far as those parts are practicable, there is already provision for the Secretary of State to make the necessary alterations by regulation. For all those reasons I hope that the House will reject the clause.
      Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: With due respect to the Minister, his arguments are unconvincing. He said that public expenditure should be kept down. One way to do that is to accept the new clause. Surely it is impossible to know whether an authority is getting value for money from a direct labour department unless it knows exactly how much each job costs and whether the department is making a loss. If the department is making a loss, obviously the ratepayers will have to pay more. We wish to safeguard the position of ratepayers as well as to do everything possible to stop costs escalating. We wish to secure economy and efficiency in the general interests of the ratepayers.
      We believe that direct labour departments could be established as separate trading departments of local authorities and that they should have their own accounts showing the profits and losses. Also implicit in the clause is that new building work should be subject to competitive tender. Such competition would be fair and would mean that the best organisation would get the work.
      I was interested to hear what was said by the hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Doig). I do not regard the direct labour department as a social service, although in some ways he does. Why
      should persons who work for a direct labour department be guaranteed work when those who work for private firms do not have that guarantee? We believe it is necessary to look at the whole picture.
      Mr. Spriggs: I am interested in direct building departments. Let me assure the hon. Member for Edinburgh, West (Lord James Douglas-Hamilton) that if I were a building worker I would prefer to be employed by the direct works department of a corporation not because I would be guaranteed full employment but because the work would be regular and the direct building department can put men on inside work during the winter months. That is the difference. The men earn their money.
      Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman says. It shows why direct labour departments are constantly expanding. These departments should not be allowed constantly to expand, when they may be working inefficiently and at a tremendous cost to ratepayers. We must look at the whole picture and not just take into account the interests of those who work for direct labour departments. This clause will make for greater economy and efficiency and will be in the interests of local authorities and the ratepayers.
      Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—
      The House divided: Ayes 103, Noes 141.

      Division No. 98.]

      AYES

      [8.0 p.m.

      Beith, A. J.

      Farr, John

      Kaberry, Sir Donald

      Bell, Ronald

      Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

      Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

      Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay)

      Fookes, Miss Janet

      King, Evelyn (South Dorset)

      Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham)

      Freud, Clement

      Lane, David

      Biffen, John

      Fry, Peter

      Latham, Michael (Melton)

      Boscawen, Hon Robert

      Gardiner, George (Reigate)

      Lawrence, Ivan

      Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown)

      Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

      Le Marchant, Spencer

      Brittan, Leon

      Goodhew, Victor

      Lester, Jim (Beeston)

      Brotherton, Michael

      Grieve, Percy

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

      Grimond, Rt Hon J.

      Lloyd, Ian

      Buchanan-Smith, Alick

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Macfarlane, Neil

      Budgen, Nick

      Hannam, John

      Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

      Bulmer, Esmond

      Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss

      Mather, Carol

      Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

      Hawkins, Paul

      Mawby, Ray

      Carlisle, Mark

      Hayhoe, Barney

      Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

      Carson, John

      Hicks, Robert

      Mayhew, Patrick

      Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton)

      Hooson, Emlyn

      Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove)

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Howells, Geraint (Cardigan)

      Moate, Roger

      Corrie, John

      Hunt, John

      Monro, Hector

      Dean, Paul (N Somerset)

      Hurd, Douglas

      Montgomery, Fergus

      Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

      Hutchison, Michael Clark

      Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

      Drayson, Burnaby

      Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

      Mudd, David

      Fairbairn, Nicholas

      Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)

      Neave, Airey

      Fairgrieve, Russell

      James, David

      Neubert, Michael

      Page, John (Harrow West)

      Sims, Roger

      Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)

      Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)

      Skeet, T. H. H.

      Townsend, Cyril D.

      Paisley, Rev Ian

      Spence, John

      Viggers, Peter

      Rathbone, Tim

      Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)

      Wainwright, Richard (Colne V)

      Rifkind, Malcolm

      Stainton, Keith

      Walder, David (Clitheroe)

      Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)

      Stanbrook, Ivor

      Winterton, Nicholas

      Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

      Steel, David (Roxburgh)

      Wood, Rt Hon Richard

      Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

      Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)

      Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

      Stokes, John

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire)

      Stradling Thomas, J.

      Mr. Hamish Gray and

      St. John-Stevas, Norman

      Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)

      Mr. Richard Luce.

      Shepherd, Colin

      Tebbit, Norman

      NOES

      Allaun, Frank

      Gould, Bryan

      Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King

      Atkins, Ronald (Preston N)

      Gourlay, Harry

      Noble, Mike

      Atkinson, Norman

      Graham, Ted

      O'Halloran, Michael

      Bain, Mrs Margaret

      Grocott, Bruce

      Ovenden, John

      Bates, Alf

      Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)

      Palmer, Arthur

      Bean, R. E.

      Hamling, William

      Parry, Robert

      Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood

      Hardy, Peter

      Peart, Rt Hon Fred

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Harper, Joseph

      Perry, Ernest

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

      Phipps, Dr Colin

      Boardman, H.

      Henderson, Douglas

      Price, William (Rugby)

      Booth, Albert

      Hoyle, Doug (Nelson)

      Radice, Giles

      Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

      Huckfield, Les

      Reid, George

      Buchanan, Richard

      Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N)

      Robertson, John (Paisley)

      Canavan, Dennis

      Hunter, Adam

      Roderick, Caerwyn

      Cartwright, John

      Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln)

      Rodgers, George (Chorley)

      Clemitson, Ivor

      Janner, Greville

      Rooker, J. W.

      Cocks, Michael (Bristol S)

      Jeger, Mrs Lena

      Rose, Paul B.

      Coleman, Donald

      John, Brynmor

      Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilm'nock)

      Cook, Robin F. (Edin C)

      Johnson, Walter (Derby S)

      Selby, Harry

      Corbett, Robin

      Jones, Dan (Burnley)

      Sillars, James

      Cox, Thomas (Tooting)

      Kaufman, Gerald

      Skinner, Dennis

      Craigen, J. M. (Maryhill)

      Kerr, Russell

      Small, William

      Crawford, Douglas

      Kinnock, Neil

      Snape, Peter

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Lambie, David

      Spearing, Nigel

      Crosland, Rt Hon Anthony

      Lamond, James

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Cryer, Bob

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Stallard, A. W.

      Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh)

      Lomas, Kenneth

      Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)

      Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

      Loyden, Eddie

      Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

      Dempsey, James

      Luard, Evan

      Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)

      Thompson, George

      Doig, Peter

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)

      Tierney, Sydney

      Dormand, J. D.

      McCartney, Hugh

      Tinn, James

      Douglas-Mann, Bruce

      McElhone, Frank

      Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      McGuire, Michael (Ince)

      Walker, Terry (Kingswood)

      Dunn, James A

      Mackenzie, Gregor

      Watt, Hamish

      Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun)

      Mackintosh, John P.

      Wellbeloved, James

      Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen)

      Maclennan, Robert

      Welsh, Andrew

      Evans, John (Newton)

      McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)

      White, Frank R. (Bury)

      Ewing, Harry (Stirling)

      McNamara, Kevin

      White, James (Pollok)

      Ewing, Mrs Winifred (Moray)

      Madden, Max

      Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

      Fernyhough, Rt Hon E.

      Magee, Bryan

      Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

      Flannery, Martin

      Marks, Kenneth

      Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

      Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

      Wise, Mrs Audrey

      Ford, Ben

      Meacher, Michael

      Woof, Robert

      Forrester, John

      Mendelson, John

      Young, David (Bolton E)

      Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin)

      Mikardo, Ian

      George, Bruce

      Millan, Bruce

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      Ginsburg, David

      Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen)

      Mr. James Hamilton and

      Golding, John

      Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

      Mr. David Stoddart.

      Question accordingly negatived.

    Clause 1

      THE VALUATION ROLL AND REVALUATION
      Mr. Millan: I beg to move Amendment No. 1, in page 1, line 13, leave out 'and section 2' and insert ', section 2 and section 5'.
      This is a drafting amendment. Alterations can be made to the valuation roll
      1432
      under Clause 5 as well as under Clause 2. This amendment makes that clear.
      Amendment agreed to.
      Mr. Millan: I beg to move Amendment No. 2, in page 2, line 7, at end insert:
      "in accordance with the Valuation Acts".
      This, again, is a drafting amendment. It is necessary to qualify this paragraph, which at present is in terms which are too absolute.
      Amendment agreed to.

    Clause 2

      ALTERATIONS TO VALUATION ROLL WHICH IS IN FORCE
      Mr. Millan: I beg to move Amendment No. 3, in page 2, line 42, leave out "may" and insert "shall".
      The amendment deals with a point which was raised in Committee. As the Bill is drafted, in both Clause 1 and Clause 2 the changes that may be made in the valuation roll by the assessor are expressed in terms that the assessor may make changes. We wish to retain "may" in Clause 1 because it seems to be necessary there, where one is dealing with a situation before the roll is finalised, that any amendment shall be made in as flexible a way as is possible by the assessor. When we come to Clause 2 and deal with the circumstances in which an amendment may be made after the roll is drawn up and we prescribe the various circumstances in the clause it seems right, on consideration, that we should place an obligation on the assessor—for example, if he discovers an error—to make the alteration in the roll.
      I said in Committee that I was rather worried about placing an absolute obligation on the assessor for all the matters in these paragraphs because I felt that might impose an unfair or impossible burden on him. I said that I would consider whether we could not discriminate between the various provisions in the clause and make some of them mandatory, and in others use "may". Having considered the matter again it seems to us that we can safely replace "may" by "shall" without imposing unnecessary disabilities.
      That is the purpose of the amendment. I am grateful to those who raised the matter in Committee. I am glad that I have been able to meet the point.
      Mr. Teddy Taylor: I am grateful to the Minister for this concession. I hope that he will appreciate the worth of the other suggestions we made in Committee.
      Amendment agreed to.
      Mr. Gordon Wilson: I beg to move Amendment No. 4, in page 3, line 3, at end insert—
      "(aa) to give effect to any alteration in the rateable value of any lands and heritages to
      1434
      make allowance for any alterations carried out thereto prior to the time when the roll was made up and which had not been declared to the assessor."
      The amendment relates to what may appear to be an omission in the provisions requiring the correction of the valuation roll at the hand of the assessor. Under subsection (2)(a) an obligation is now placed upon the assessor to correct the roll where an error has been made. I believe that in times past the assessor's power to make this change was limited to where a mathematical error had been discovered in the course of the calculation of the various factors which made up the gross annual value, whereas if the error had occurred at the instance of the assessor through a fault in survey, for instance, the assessor was unable to make the change. That seems to have been changed by subsection (2)(a), and subsection (2)(b) deals with any other changes which might have occurred
      "since the roll was made up".
      The amendment takes in another instance, one which arose frequently during the time of the last revaluation when I acted as the secretary of a valuation appeal committee. That was where it was discovered, in the course of the proceedings during that revaluation year, that an error had been made, not through the fault of the assessor, but once the roll had been made up, and could not be corrected. It occurred in some disturbing circumstances, because in valuation affairs, in proving that a valuation may be incorrect, it is customary for the appellant to produce evidence of comparison with other properties. He looks at the valuation roll and sees that the house opposite, which he thinks to be the same as his own, has a lower valuation than his, and he therefore says to the appeal committee that his valuation is too high.
      8.15 p.m.
      Frequently, when reference is made to the analysis of the other property, it is found that there is some feature about it which is not similar to the house under appeal. The reason for that is that in the annual return which is made by a householder no reference is made to a change such as an extension—a bathroom, new toilet facilities, or a garage. Ratepayers and appellants cannot understand why those who have failed to make their returns should get off scot free. One of

      1435
      the unfortunate rules was that no change could be made in the valuation until the next period of revaluation which could be five years hence or, in the case of reorganisation of local government, in this instance, seven years.
      The effect of the amendment would be to allow the assessor, on obtaining information of that sort, to correct the roll. The amendment seems to fit what has been proposed by the Government in an effort to correct some of the disadvantages that have arisen in the past. I assure the House that appellants cannot understand that somebody who has not made a return should profit from his failure to make a return, whereas somebody who has made a return has his valuation increased because of information he has disclosed.
      It may be argued on behalf of the Minister that the phrase "owing to error" in subsection (2)(a) could take care of the circumstances I have outlined. In view of the law on the subject there may be doubt about whether that construction would be put upon the use of the phrase. The specific circumstances outlined in the amendment could take care of the problem, which frequently arises in practice.
      Mr. Millan: I am not absolutely sure that I followed everything that the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. Wilson) said. Some of the points he made and the wording of the amendment would suggest that he is dealing with a situation more closely allied to what happens under Clause 1 rather than under Clause 2. I am not sure why he has chosen to table the amendment to Clause 2 rather than to Clause 1. The amendment speaks of
      "alterations carried out thereto prior to the time when the roll was made up".
      That brings the matter rather more into Clause 1 than into Clause 2.
      The assessor has power, which we are strengthening, to obtain information bearing on valuations. We are amending the appropriate provision in the 1854 Act by the provision in paragraph 1 of Part II of Schedule 6, under which it will be possible for the assessor to call for information bearing on valuations which is likely to result in changes in the valuation.
      1436
      The hon. Gentleman seems to be saying that there should be an arrangement whereby every alteration that is made should be volunteered and declared to the assessor. I have a good deal of sympathy with the hon. Gentleman. This point of unfairness was raised on a number of occasions on Clause 2. I have sympathy with the view that omissions which arise from a deliberate intent by the ratepayer to avoid giving information are very troublesome and unfair to other ratepayers. But the trouble about imposing an obligation to give information on every alteration is that it is difficult for the layman to define a material change of circumstances.
      If we were to impose such an obligation, assuming that the ratepayers adhered to it, which must be a matter of doubt, a considerable number of additional pieces of information might be given to the assessor which would not be relevant because they would not represent a material change of circumstances. Therefore, he would be bogged down by a great deal of unnecessary information.
      If we cannot make the obligation which the hon. Gentleman has in mind stick, we cannot accept the amendment, which turns on whether a declaration had been made to the assessor. If a declaration had been made, one provision about the timing of a change would apply and if a declaration had not been made another provision would apply. That could deal not only with an increase but with a reduction in value. It is not therefore simple to get the matter right. We cannot achieve a fool-proof system by writing everything into the legislation. We must give the assessor powers and responsibilities to correct errors and to make changes. We cannot place absolute obligations on the assessor or the ratepayer.
      Mr. James Dempsey: Does the assessor have powers to incorporate valuations for rateable values during the interval between revaluations?
      Mr. Millan: Yes, he does.
      We are setting out the powers in the clause in a much more comprehensive way. We provide in Schedule 6 increased powers for the assessors to obtain the necessary information. Therefore, we

      1437
      have gone as far as we can reasonably go to get the matter right and to maintain fairness and equity between ratepayers. I cannot recommend the House to accept the amendment, though I recognise what the hon. Gentleman is attempting to do and I have sympathy with it as a matter of equity. However, he wishes to write into the Bill an equity which is not identifiable.
      Mr. Doig: I am surprised at the Minister's reply. The effect of the amendment is that there should be power to rectify the situation if an alteration is carried out before the property is valued and it is subsequently discovered that it has not been declared. That power does not exist. There is only power to make an alteration if the additions have been made after the property has been valued.
      It is well known that the assessor annually sends a notice to everyone with a request to state whether any change has been made since the property was last valued. If someone makes a change which clearly involves the property in carrying a higher rateable value but does not declare it on the form, the assessor values it not knowing the situation. It may be a garage, which normally would carry an extra valuation of £8 a year. If the person falsely failed to declare it and subsequently the assessor discovered what the situation was, perhaps because somebody had complained, it is wrong that the assessor should not have the power to do what he would have done had he known about the garage.
      I have a great deal of sympathy with the amendment, and the Minister should think again about this matter.
      Mr. Gordon Wilson: I thank the hon. Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Doig) for completing the partnership on the amendment. He has put his finger on the point. Inequity results from a false declaration. The person who has made the false declaration benefits, not for one year but for five years. The law is that if the lands or heritages are in existence before the date of revaluation they should be incorporated in the valuation. If any material change occurs thereafter, it can result in the roll being changed. But if no such change occurs the assessor cannot change the roll until five years have elapsed.
      1438
      One can imagine what would happen if a person, having gone to an appeal tribunal, has his case turned down because the assessor points to five similar houses but a mistake had occurred in relation to the example which the appellant chose. The assessor is right, but it is wrong that the person who enjoys that benefit should get away with it. The amendment would take care of that situation.
      The assessor does not rely simply on the information which comes through the annual return. He obtains information from the dean of guild courts and building regulations about applications which have been granted. But from time to time changes occur in properties which are not notified to the local authorities since the work may have been done privately. Even when the form is filled in, it may be a question not of a false declaration but of inaccurate reading of the form when the householder may be unaware that the bathroom, toilet or whatever it is should be treated as a new subject and be included in the assessor's records and valued.
      I am prepared to accept that perhaps the phrasing of the amendment is not right, although the Minister did not say anything about that matter. If he does not agree to consider the matter more closely before the Bill is dealt with in the House of Lords, I shall have to force a Division. However, I hope that he will have sympathy with what I am trying to achieve.
      Mr. Millan: With permission, I should like to say a few words in reply.
      The amendment is directed to the date on which the alteration can be made. In the amendment the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. Wilson) is proposing a different date from that which would be applied in terms of the clause generally. I thought that the purpose of his amendment was specifically directed towards the date on which the change should apply rather than to the circumstances of the change itself. I hope I have made that clear.
      I was directing my argument to some extent to the point the hon. Gentleman was making, which has been clarified by my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee, West (Mr. Doig), who takes a very close

      1439
      interest in these matters—as Ministers know to their cost from time to time.
      I think that the point that is being made is already covered by Clause 2(1)(f). If it is not covered there, I think that it is covered by subsection (1)(a), which refers to
      "lands and heritages which were in existence … when the roll was made up"
      but which were not included because of error.
      The point made by the hon. Member is, as it were, that unless the error is taken up before the roll is complete, the assessor will not have a chance to make an alteration at all, if there is an omission, until the next valuation. I am almost certain that that is not so and that the wording in paragraphs (a) and (f) covers the point.
      If the hon. Member will agree to withdraw the amendment—in any event it is not properly drafted; I think that it is directed to a slightly different point from the one he wishes to pursue—I shall look at the wording of Clause 1 and see whether the point he makes is covered. If it is not covered, I agree that there is a deficiency in the clause and I shall try to put it right at a later stage of the Bill. My advice at present, however, is that it is covered. If the amendment is withdrawn, I shall be very glad to write to the hon. Member and to the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor).
      8.30 p.m.
      Mr. Teddy Taylor: With regard to the Minister's suggestion about the clause, I am a little worried that we might not find a solution here. On page 4 subsection (2)(d), there is reference to the timing arrangements for subsection (1)(f). It says that the change should have effect as from the date of the erroneous entry or the beginning of the year, whichever is later. Therefore, is it the date of the entry and not the date of the event?
      While we are grateful to the Minister for his assurances, I do not think that we shall find a solution there, but as he has given an undertaking to the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. Wilson) that a change will be made, this is a satisfactory solution.
      Mr. Gordon Wilson: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      Mr. Gordon Wilson: I beg to move, Amendment No. 5, in page 3, line 23, at end insert—
      '(ee) to give effect to any alteration in the rateable value of any lands and heritages whether or not an appeal under the Valuations Act is pending with respect thereto, in order to achieve uniformity of valuation with any other lands and heritages in the same valuation area with respect to which an appeal to the Lands Valuation Appeal Court has been determined'.
      This amendment relates to another problem which has arisen in relation to valuation court procedings. I confess at this stage that the particular district for which I was secretary to the appeal committee was that of Renfrewshire, which has a very substantial reputation for obtaining large numbers of appeals every time there is revaluation. I think that the hon. Member for Paisley (Mr. Robertson), who is in the Chamber at present, would rush to confirm this.
      What happened in the 1971 revaluation was that there were a certain number of appeals taken against the basic level of valuation. The basic level is the notional rental which a particular property might fetch according to a scale relating to the type and class of property, its age and its environment—in fact, in relation to any given property which the assessor might fix.
      Basic level is one of these things which, if overturned, could affect the valuation of premises throughout the area of valuation authority. This happened in Renfrewshire in 1970–71. There was an appeal taken against basic level in Dunbartonshire as well, although, eventually, that did not lead to any change in valuations.
      To give an idea of the problem, there were about 29,000 individual appeals in Renfrewshire, and large numbers of local authority houses were also affected. Indeed, it was the local authorities in Renfrewshire which took two out of the four test cases which resulted on basic level. The local authorities were successful on basic level in overturning the valuations which had been made by the assessor, so that there was a general reduction.

      1441
      But, in terms of this amendment, I want to point to one of the practical consequences of such a large number of appeals that were lodged. People in the county knew that there was to be this general appeal against basic level. Because of that, encouragement was given by various organisations, as well as by the Press, to people to mark appeals. The intention was not to mark an appeal affecting an individual house in relation to the amenities that that house had, the area in which it was located or any lack of amenities which might affect it, but more to gain the benefit of a local authority test case.
      Many people tied their cases to the local authority test case, but there were others who, for reasons of their own, perhaps, did not get around to appealing, and who were, perhaps, satisfied that in relation to the area in which their house was situated or its capacity, it was fairly valued. They did not mark an appeal. As a result, they did not get their benefit for the following year, after the Lands Valuation Appeal Court, in the fullness of time, got around to making a decision on proof taken before the appeal committee.
      If there had been some sort of arrangement whereby basic level could have been automatically adjusted in the event of a major change taking place as a result of the decision of the valuation appeals committee of the area, or of the Lands Valuation Appeal Court, that would have saved a tremendous amount of trouble in organisation and administration in relation to unnecessary appeals—unnecessary in a sense—which were lodged. But the assessor had to regard all such appeals, and two things resulted. First, there was a waste of effort because of the need to appeal. Second, those who did not go to the trouble of appealing did not get the benefit of a valuation. It was only later, in the next subsequent year, that that lower value was passed on to those who had neglected, probably for very good reasons, to appeal in the first instance.
      Therefore, in terms of the amendment, power should be given to provide for some holding of the position empowering the assessor to give effect to any alteration in the rateable value of any lands
      1442
      and heritages, whether or not an appeal is pending. This gives a degree of flexibility. It means that those who have not marked an appeal are not necessarily disallowed what their neighbours are obtaining.
      This was probably a very special case. Certainly it did not occur anywhere else in Scotland. But it could have occurred, particularly in Dunbartonshire. If basic level cases can be taken in the future, the same problem may arise in any area. We should take advantage of this Bill to make sure that this gap is covered.
      Mr. Millan: I hope that I can convince the hon. Gentleman the amendment is not necessary, because the point that he makes is already covered by the Bill. As Clause 2 stands at present, an alteration is to be made where that is due to any material change of circumstances. Under the amendment that I have already made to make that a mandatory responsibility of the assessor, there is no discretion allowed to him. He has to make a change now due to a material change of circumstances which comes to his notice.
      If the hon. Gentleman will refer to the definition in Clause 35 of "material change of circumstances" he will see that that includes any relevant decision not only of the Lands Valuation Appeal Court but of the valuation appeal committee as well. Therefore, in any case in which a decision was made, as it were, on a test case, where the particular valuation concerned raised considerations which were absolutely analogous to all the other houses and properties concerned, the case having been decided, that would be a material change of circumstance and the assessor would then be under an obligation, under the provisions of the clause, to make the corresponding changes elsewhere.
      Therefore, there would be no need for the various matters to be covered by individual appeals and no discrimination between those who appealed and those who did not appeal.
      Mr. Gordon Wilson: The Minister has misunderstood the situation which I described. A material change of circumstances is usually a case which can be presented in the year following that in which the change has taken place. I

      1443
      shall paint the picture of an appeal marked at the beginning of September. That is taken before the valuation appeal committee at any time within the following six months. Perhaps it is not then decided for eight to ten months by the Lands Valuation Appeal Court in Edinburgh.
      Anyone who has failed to mark an appeal in 1970–71 will not receive the benefit of the material change which has occurred until 1971–72. That was the exact circumstance in Renfrewshire where the committee took a decision to reduce the valuation of local authority houses for which an appeal had been marked by local authorities, and those of many thousands of other properties which had had appeals marked in relation to the local authority test case. The appellants in respect of the other houses, for which no appeal had been marked for 1970–71, had to come back in 1971–72 and show that there was a material change of circumstance.
      There was an appeal in relation to certain houses in the Williamwood test case, which substantiated, through the action of the Land Valuation Appeal Court, that there was a spread of benefit which would extend to other houses in the country. Even if it is not necessary to go to the length of the Lands Valuation Appeal Court, under the Williamwood case, it is necessary for us to try to cut out the unnecessary holding appeals in the year of the revaluation. If we do not do so, people must put in a holding appeal for revaluation, otherwise they lose one year's reduction, which can be unfair to them and cause a tremendous amount of trouble to the assessor and to the valuation appeals committees, which are flooded out with appeals.
      Mr. Millan: I understand the point made by the hon. Gentleman. My main answer is still correct. The appeal decision is based on a material change of circumstances, which then attracts the mandatory provisions of Clause 2. The hon. Gentleman may agree that that is so. However, in the case of persons who make the appeal, the reduction in the valuation will commence from a date which may be earlier than that which will apply in the other cases which are affected by the definition of material
      1444
      change of circumstances, including the decision of the appeal committee or the Scottish Lands Valuation Appeal Court.
      However, I do not think that that is the circumstance. The intention is that we should make the date of the change the same for all the properties concerned. If we have not achieved that, I shall look again at the matter. But I believe that that is what we have achieved with the Bill as at present drafted. If I am wrong, I will inform the hon. Gentleman and consider whether we should put down an amendment in the other place. The hon. Gentleman's amendment is defective and will therefore not do the job which he has in mind.
      Mr. Wilson: I had not intended to press this amendment because I realised that this was a special case. However, I am happy that we have now broached the question with the Minister and that he has agreed to look at the matter again. When he does so he will find that there are good grounds for action, although it is a specialised case.
      I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      Mr. Millan: I beg to move Amendment No. 6, in page 3, line 29, leave out:
      'the assessor considers to be' and insert 'are'.
      This point was raised in Committee and it shows that the time spent in Committee was not wasted by the Opposition, which felt that the provision regarding the deletion from the rule gave too much discretion to the assessor and that the scope went wider than necessary. This amendment deletes the words
      "the assessor considers to be"
      and inserts the word "are" which makes the provision more definite, since it makes it clear that the assessor is not a free agent in a matter of this kind but is bound by the general law on valuation, which was always the intention.
      Mr. Teddy Taylor: We are grateful for this further indication of the Minister's flexibility. I am glad that he has accepted the Opposition's point.
      Amendment agreed to.

    Clause 5

      VALUATION OF PUBLIC UNDERTAKINGS
      Mr. Millan: I beg to move Amendment No. 7, in page 6, leave out lines 36 to 43 and insert—
      '(c) value any lands and heritages which—

      (i) were in existence on 16th May 1975 and which, owing to error, were not included in the roll made up by the Assessor for the year 1975–76 and which he is required under any enactment to value,

      (ii) have come into existence at any time between 16th May 1975 and the beginning of the first year of revaluation thereafter and which he is required under any enactment to value,

      (iii) were in existence on 16th May 1975 but which by or under an enactment have first fallen to be valued by the Assessor at any time between that date and the beginning of the first year of revaluation thereafter.

      (2) The Assessor shall direct the assessor for any valuation area ("the local assessor") containing any lands and heritages which the Assessor has valued or revalued under subsection (1) above to enter those lands and heritages in the valuation roll.'.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Myer Galpern): With this, we are to consider Government Amendment No. 8.
      8.45 p.m.
      Mr. Millan: I am sorry that these amendments are so lengthy. They are intended to achieve a comparatively simple objective, and they are mainly of technical significance.
      We provide in Clause 5 that, in cases where valuations are made by the Assessor of Public Undertakings, the valuations so arrived at shall not be provided for on a separate roll but shall be entered into the local valuation rolls. We have to provide for the period between the last valuation and circumstances which may arise before the next one. Basically, therefore, we are making provision for this interim period.
      Amendment No. 7 makes provision for the assessor to continue to make his valuations after 16th May 1975 until the next revaluation—for example, for new properties coming into existence—and the timings of all these are the same as in the other circumstances of the ordinary rolls that we provide for in Clause 2.
      The effect of Amendment No. 8 is to introduce five new subsections. Subsec-
      1446
      tion (4) attracts the same dates as those attracted by the other changes in Clause 2. Subsection (5) limits the right of appeal of the proprietor, tenant or occupier of the subjects valued by the assessor. Once the period for appealing against directions is over, appeals will be competent only upon a material change of circumstance.
      Subsection (6) deals with the machinery for appeals. Since the normal machinery for appeals and complaints to the local valuation committee does not apply in the case of valuations made by the Assessor of Public Undertakings, the subsection disapplies the normal appeals procedure. Appeals in these cases go straight to the Lands Valuation Appeal Court.
      Subsection (7) empowers the making of regulations so as to facilitate the modernisation of the office of the APU and his staff and the financing of his unit. The Assessor of Public Undertakings is in an odd position. He is not quite a civil servant; he is a quasi-civil servant. His salary and expenses are paid by the local authorities. It is a rather unsatisfactory situation. Here we are providing that he shall be absorbed into the Civil Service. I have just said that his expenses are defrayed by the local authorities. I should have said that they are defrayed by the undertakings in respect of which he carries out valuations. We are getting rid of that provision and bringing him basically within the Civil Service. Some of this procedure will be done by regulations. Subsection (8) provides that the regulations under subsection (7) will be subject to negative resolution.
      I hope that that is a reasonably clear explanation of what appears to be a complicated amendment.
      Mr. Teddy Taylor: I have one brief question on Amendment No. 8. Subsection (6) reads:
      "Notwithstanding anything in any enactment, no person may complain or appeal to a valuation appeal committee against an entry in the valuation roll made in consequence of a direction under this section."
      There is the possibility that a private trader or resident may take the view that something has been included in such a direction which should be not be included. We discussed the question of the gas and electricity boards having houses which would not be included in general valuation.

      1447
      Why should this provision be written into legislation? We can understand that if an appeal is not competent, the valuation appeal committee will say so, but why should this provision be written into the Bill? It seems that the subsection is unnecessary and it could, if it had any effect at all, be rather unjust. It is more than likely that no person would have any valid complaint or appeal to a valuation appeal committee against a direction under this clause, but why do we have to insert this provision in the clause? I am genuinely puzzled. If it means anything I think that its meaning is rather unjust. I fancy that it will have little effect and, therefore, it should not be included.
      Mr. Millan: I am sorry that this is a complicated amendment. We are dealing with the valuation of statutory undertakings—for example, nationalised industries—rather than individual persons. Therefore, the circumstance would not arise that an individual householder, for example, would be likely to be appealing against the valuation made by the Assessor of Public Undertakings even if his particular house were included in the valuation. The valuation would relate to the nationalised industry or the statutory undertaker concerned. As these are special valuations, the provisions have never allowed appeals to the local valuation appeal committee.
      Valuation appeals are dealt with by the Lands Valuation Appeal Court, and that is preserved. There is no question of taking away the right of appeal in any way or of changing the right of appeal. We are making it clear that there is no appeal in these cases to the local valuation appeal committee, but the appeal remains open to the Lands Valuation Appeal Court. We have to make this provision explicit because the valuations are not to be kept on a separate roll kept by the Assessor of Public Undertakings.
      The valuations are now to go on the local valuation roll. Because they go there they do not attract the normal appeal procedure as that is not relevant or appropriate to the matters which are involved in formulating valuations. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that there is no reduction in the right of appeal and that the right remains as it is at present.
      Mr. Teddy Taylor: With the leave of the House, I wish to ask a question. The kind of situation that I am envisaging is when a private householder wishes to give comparisons before the valuation appeals committee. Suppose that he looks at one house which he thinks is an appropriate comparison and then finds, either because of policy or because of an error, that this house, which may be owned by the gas or electricity board, has been included in the gross figure of the undertaking valuation. Is he not therefore entitled to complain to the valuation appeal committee? If not, to whom can he complain?
      This is an unlikely situation, but the subsection covers an unlikely situation. Perhaps the Assessor of Public Undertakings has said that an office of the electricity board, which is included in the building or headquarters in a local authority area, should be included in the total and not valued separately. This might apply to a showroom, for example. Suppose I wanted to quote the valuation of that office but was told by the assessor that it was included in the global figure. This is something about which a ratepayer is entitled to complain to someone. To whom does he complain, and would not this subsection remove that right to complain?
      The Minister has said that the undertaking can appeal only to the Lands Valuation Appeal Court, but what about the individual who wishes to quote such an instance? Is it not fair and reasonable that he should be able to complain to someone or some committee?
      Mr. Millan: Houses will not be included in the formula valuation at all and will therefore be valued in the normal way by the local assessor. Whether they are owned by the gas board, the water undertaking or any other undertaking will not make the slightest difference. They will be on the normal roll and can be appealed or quoted in evidence in the normal way. The same applies to showrooms and other commercial premises. They will not be included in the formula valuation, so the normal procedures will apply, whether at the instance of the nationalised undertaking or of any person. We are dealing only with matters which are included in a formula valuation.

      1449
      Of course, a formula valuation which may relate to gas works or power stations or water undertakings is a total valuation. I am not absolutely clear whether anyone other than the undertaking itself has a right to appeal, but, whether it does or not, the appeal will be on the basis of the valuation of the whole undertaking with the necessary exclusions that I have mentioned. Unless there are individuals in Scotland running their own massive power stations which are being valued by the local assessor, it is highly unlikely that they will want to complain or to quote in aid the formula valuation for another power station which is dealt with by the Assessor of Public Undertakings. If that were the situation, which is highly unlikely, the appeal procedure would still apply, but the appeal is not to the local committee—which is all that I said in the first place.
      Amendment agreed to.
      Amendment made: No. 8, in page 7, line 16, at end insert—
      '(4) Any entry made in the valuation roll—

      (a) where the valuation has been made under subsection (1)(b)(i) or (c)(i) above, shall have effect only as from the beginning of the year in which the entry is made;

      (b) where the valuation has been made under subsection (1)(b)(ii) or (c)(ii) above, shall have effect only as from the date when the lands and heritages to which the entry relates came into existence or as from the beginning of the year in which the entry is made, whichever is the later;

      (c) where the valuation has been made under subsection (1)(b)(iii) or (c)(iii) above, shall have effect only as from the coming into effect of the enactment by or under which the Assessor is required to value the lands and heritages, or as from the beginning of the year in which the entry is made, whichever is the later;

      (d) in pursuance of a further direction given under the proviso to subsection (2) above, shall have effect only as from the date of the event by reason of which the further direction is given or as from the beginning of the year in which such direction is given, whichever is the later.

      (5) Without prejudice to section 24 of the Lands Valuation (Scotland) Act 1854 (appeal against entry in roll in consequence of direction) and subject to section 26 of that Act (right of appeal to be forfeited where refusal to answer call by Assessor for books and writings, etc.), the proprietor, tenant or occupier of lands and heritages which are included in the valuation roll in consequence
      1450
      of a direction under this section may at any time while the roll is in force appeal to the Lands Valuation Appeal Court against the entry in the roll but only on the ground that there has been a material change of circumstances affecting the value of the lands and heritages since the entry was made:
      Provided that appeal under this subsection shall be competent only where the proprietor, tenant or occupier has given notice in writing to the Assessor before lodging the appeal of the material change of circumstances.
      (6) Notwithstanding anything in any enactment, no person may complain or appeal to a valuation appeal committee against an entry in the valuation roll made in consequence of a direction under this section.
      (7) The Secretary of State may make regulations providing for—

      (a) the payment of remuneration, pensions, allowances, gratuities to, or transfer values in respect of, the Assessor and his clerks and other officers, and the manner in which such payment is to be financed;

      (b) the terms and conditions of employment of the Assessor and his clerks and other officers;

      (c) the amendment or repeal, with or without savings, of any enactment which is inconsistent with or superseded by the regulations.

      (8) A statutory instrument containing regulations under subsection (7) above shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.'—[Mr. Millan.]

    Clause 7

      LEVYING OF RATES
      Mr. Millan: I beg to move Amendment No. 9, in page 8, line 11, at beginning insert:
      'Subject to the provisions of any other enactment'.
      This is basically a drafting amendment. The general rule is laid down in Clause 7(1) that rates are to be levied according to the rateable value in the valuation roll, but there are certain properties which have been entered on the rolls but for which rates are not levied—for example, churches, church halls and a number of others. This provision relates to rating relief for charities and the rest. The amendment is needed to make it clear that what we are saying does not override the other enactments which provide for these various exceptions or exclusions.
      Amendment agreed to.

    Clause 10

      COLLECTION OF RATES BY HOUSING BODY ON BEHALF OF RATING AUTHORITY
      9.0 p.m.
      Mr. Millan: I beg to move Amendment No. 10, in page 10, line 36, at end insert:
      'on the occupiers of lands and heritages let by the housing body, and where such arrangements are made the rates shall be payable to the housing body by instalments along with payments of rent.'
      The purpose of the amendment is to provide for arrangements to be made by a housing body for the payment of rates. The amendment seeks to make the matter much more explicit since the provision as drafted is not as clear as it might be.
      The amendment makes two changes. First, it makes it clear that when such an arrangement is made the ratepayer is bound to pay his rates not to the rating authority but to the housing body concerned. Secondly, the amendment provides for rates to be subject to the same instalment arrangements as those which apply to rents. In normal circumstances, under Clause 8 ratepayers will be able to pay their rates by 10 instalments. The provision seeks to make clear that where an arrangement is made a tenant will not be asked to pay rates in one lump sum. The amendment will meet the convenience of tenants who wish to make one payment in respect of rent and rates and not separate payments at different times.
      Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: We cannot understand why the Secretary of State should take it upon himself to decide how and when rent and rates should be paid. Surely this should be a matter for local authorities. If the Government are giving complete power to local authorities to decide rent levels, why cannot the Government be consistent and give local authorities power to say when and how rent and rates should be paid? Surely local authorities are the best people to take into account the wishes of local people. Therefore, I hope that the Minister will look at the matter again.
      Mr. Millan: In regard to rents, arrangements can be made by local authorities to meet the convenience of those concerned. On the subject of rates, we are providing in Clause 8 for the pay-
      1452
      ment of instalments. We are not leaving the matter to the local authority but we are providing that rates shall be paid in instalments. It would be inconsistent if, to reduce ratepayers' burdens, we were to introduce provisions for payment of rates by instalments and were not at the same time to safeguard a number of other people who are tenants of housing bodies. If we did not give the right to pay rates by instalment to the general body of ratepayers, we could not under the clause safeguard a large number of people who will be tenants of housing bodies, either the local authorities or the other bodies defined in the clause.
      What we are doing is utterly consistent with what we are doing in Clause 8. It is a protection for tenants in case the local authority does not wish to give them the benefit of the payment of rates by instalments.
      Mr. Teddy Taylor: The Minister has not understood the point my hon. Friend made. The clause says that if there is no agreement between the Secretary of State and the rating authority as to how the job should be done, the Secretary of State should determine how it should be done. The Minister is now adding to the clause the provision that in every case rent and rates shall be paid together.
      What happens if a local authority takes the view, which obviously the Minister does not share, that it is more for the convenience of tenants that they should pay their rent in a particular way and their rates in exactly the same way as other people are required to do under Clause 8, namely in 10 monthly instalments, and not with the rent? Will the Secretary of State prevent them from so doing under the clause?
      The Minister must be aware that some local authorities are concerned that if people pay rent and rates together they are often not aware of what is the rent part and what is the rate part. Many people will say "I pay a rent of £30 a month" whereas on inspection one finds that the rent is £15 a month and the rates are £15 a month.
      It is inconsistent that the Government are using as their main argument in the Bill that they want to give freedom to responsible local authorities, whereas they are not prepared to give this freedom. A

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      local authority may well take the view that it is in the best interests of its tenants that they should pay their rent monthly, weekly or yearly, and pay their rates in exactly the same way as other people under Clause 8, namely, in 10 payments direct to the city collector.
      The Minister has said that the provision will be for the convenience of tenants. Who is he to say what is convenient? The local authorities are in a far better position to decide. What is the position of a local authority that comes to the conclusion that it is in the best interests of everyone in its area, is a matter of convenience and economy, and benefits its tenants, that tenants should not pay their rent and rates together? Does the amendment mean that it will be prevented from implementing that decision?
      Mr. Dempsey: Will my hon. Friend clarify one or two points? First, will he make it absolutely clear that the provision applies to all dwelling houses, to all occupiable houses? Secondly, is he aware that we have been having difficulty with the Scottish Special Housing Association over the payment of rates and rents? A group of tenants in Airdrie who were unable to pay rates in large instalments asked to be allowed to pay by the addition of several instalments a year. We received a reply to the effect that where tenants have difficulty in paying rates they may negotiate with the representatives of the Association as to how rates should be paid, and over what period of time.
      It is obvious to me that those in the lower income groups must find it difficult to pay rates in large instalments, and would prefer to pay them fortnightly or monthly. Will the provisions in the Bill be obligatory on the Association, as well as other housing authorities and house owners, to ensure that rates and rents are paid regularly on a reasonable basis, to avoid the burdens and economic difficulties that large instalments cause to those in the lower income groups?
      Will my hon. Friend also clarify the position of the local authorities, because we are confused? We received a letter from the going-out or standing-down authority, the Lanarkshire County Council, saying that rates would no longer be payable through bankers' orders. When
      1454
      I refer to rates, I include rents. This is a convenient way of paying rents and rates for working people. It prevents them from having to stay in and lose work when the rent collector comes or having to travel late at night after work or on a Saturday morning if the office is open to pay rents and rates fortnightly or monthly. Yet the Lanarkshire County Council has issued this notice which has been signed by the Lanarkshire County Council factor. Will the provisions allow some discretion or understanding whereby local authorities and tenants can arrange the best and most convenient means the payment of rents and rates?
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mr. Dempsey) is going far beyond the purpose of the amendment by raising a matter which would arise on the debate on the Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill." I must rule him out of order on the matter that he is developing.
      Mr. Dempsey: We are discussing how rates should be paid.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. We are not discussing the Bill at this stage. We are discussing a particular amendment.
      Mr. Dempsey: The amendment raises the whole question of the payment of rates. I think that I am entitled to ask my hon. Friend to clarify the position. I shall not need to make a speech in the debate on the clause if my hon. Friend replies to this point when he answers other hon. Members.
      Mr. Malcolm Rifkind: I should like to speak briefly in support of the amendment.
      The Government appear to be strangely and surprisingly inconsistent in their approach to this amendment compared with their attitude on the Housing Rents and Subsidies (Scotland) Bill to an amendment tabled by the Opposition which suggested that a tenant in receipt of supplementary benefit should, if he wished, be allowed to pay his rent direct. That proposal, which most of us thought to be reasonable as it depended on the wishes of the tenant, was bitterly attacked by the Government as an abuse of the freedom of the individual and a restriction on his right and responsibility to determine his own payments and obligations to the local authority.

      1455
      Here, however, irrespective of the wishes of either the tenant or the local authority, the Government are directing an arrangement to take place between the tenant and the housing body or local authority which neither might wish or which might be inconvenient to them. Will the Minister indicate why a completely different approach is justified by the Government on two Bills which they have brought forward, both of which affect the freedom of the individual tenant?
      Mr. Millan: I think that I have quite enough to deal with on this Bill without going back over the arguments on supplementary benefit regarding the previous Bill to which the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Rifkind) has referred.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mr. Dempsey) asked what we are trying to do. In Clause 8 we are providing for the payment of rates by instalments, not at the discretion of the local authority. We are making it mandatory that rates should be paid by 10 equal instalments. It seems extraordinary that, because that might be inconvenient for housing bodies and, therefore, they should be allowed to make arrangements other than the general provision in Clause 8, we should nevertheless leave these other arrangements and deny to local authority and SSHA tenants the right to pay rates by instalments at all. That would be an extraordinary situation. It would mean that we were singling out one class of ratepayer and denying him rights that are available to other ratepayers under Clause 8.
      9.15 p.m.
      Therefore if we are to allow the arrangements under Clause 10 to override those made under Clause 8, we have to make the necessary safeguard that the right of the ratepayer to pay rates by instalments shall not be overridden. That is the purpose of the amendment. It provides that where those arrangements are made rates can be paid along with rent. That will be mandatory but not in the sense of the Secretary of State intervening or approving any agreement. It will be mandatory because if the amendment is accepted it will be written
      1456
      into the Bill, just as we have written in the earlier provisions in Clause 8.
      I was asked what would happen if the local authority and the tenant both wanted the tenant to pay his rates by 10 instalments under Clause 8. The answer is that the arrangement would not come under this clause. But we must not allow the local authorities to override the general principle that ratepayers should be able to pay their rates by instalments. I do not believe that a local authority would want to do that.
      If the Opposition do not like Clause 8 they have had ample opportunity to do something about it in Committee and now on Report. If they support the clause, it is extraordinary that they should be proposing that its advantages should be denied to council tenants. I cannot accept that.
      Mr. Teddy Taylor: The Minister has not even begun to understand our point. I hope that between now and the next stage of the Bill he will endeavour to do so. Clause 8 provides that every ratepayer can pay his rates in 10 instalments a year. Arrangements can be made for a local authority or housing body to make different arrangements, subject to the approval of the Secretary of State where there is a failure to agree. Now, however, the Minister is seeking to bring in the further qualification that where such arrangements are made rates should be paid with rent.
      I cannot understand why the Government want to do that. Many tenants simply do not know how much rates they are paying, because they think that what they are paying is all rent. Perhaps a local authority might take the view that it would be in the interest of its tenants that they should be fully aware of the amount of rates they pay by paying them separately to the city collector and paying the rent directly to the housing manager.
      The Minister is unwilling to make a concession on this point, and he has not justified the requirement to have rent and rates paid together. He has not even begun to understand that argument. I therefore hope that he will study what we have said before the Bill goes to the other place.
      Amendment agreed to.

    Clause 19

      AMENDMENT OF SECTION 201 OF ACT OF 1947
      Mr. Teddy Taylor: I beg to move Amendment No. 13, in page 14, line 19, at end insert—
      'This subsection shall not apply in cases where reports relate to fines imposed by the courts on authorities'.
      This is a rather narrow amendment dealing with a major point considered in Committee. It relates to Clause 19, the most controversial clause in the Bill. That clause gives the Secretary of State powers, if he so desires, retrospectively to wipe out any surcharges to which a housing authority or its councillors may be liable. In Committee we had a long discussion about the merits of this clause. We took the view that it was an affront to democracy, particularly in the circumstances, when Scottish local authorities had defied the law. They had done this knowingly and with the support of elements of the Labour Party.
      We suggested that in the circumstances, particularly in places such as Glasgow and Clydebank, the actions of the Labour Party had led to the undermining of law and authority. This is an action which the Labour Party will live to regret. We tried to discover the financial effect of the measures taken by some local authorities. We were astonished to find that, because of the delay in the implementation of the Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1972, which was the basis of the illegal action, the tenants in Glasgow and Clydebank were paying a higher monthly rate than they would have paid if the councils had obeyed the law.
      That was a strange situation, bearing in mind that some local councils had opposed the Act on the basis that the level of rents charged under the Act would impose severe hardship. On the other hand in an answer given to me by the Minister on 7th February he appeared to disclose that, despite the fact that tenants in Clydebank and Glasgow were paying more in rent, the total amount of money they had paid since the introduction of the Act was less than would have been the case if the Act had been strictly complied with.
      These figures appeared to show the amount which ratepayers in those areas
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      had lost in consequence. In Glasgow it seems that the sum involved up to the end of the freeze on 15th May was about £1·1 million and in Clydebank £100,000. Can the Minister clarify, once and for all, what amounts have been lost by these ratepayers as a result of the illegal action?
      The amendment relates only to fines. We say that while we cannot accept some of the monstrous arguments put forward by the hon. Members for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Lambie) and Stirling, Falkirk and Grangemouth (Mr. Ewing) on the question whether the Secretary of State should have these powers, even if we were to accept those arguments—and I doubt whether we could—we see no justification why the ratepayers in any community should be called upon to pay the fines imposed on local councils because of their evasion and defiance of the law. This is the situation which could arise unless this amendment is approved.
      Under the 1972 Act Clydebank could have increased the rents in October 1972. It did not do so. There was a great demonstration and defiance of the law. In February 1973 it was fined £5,000. At the time there was a great campaign conducted by certain elements in the West of Scotland. I understand that a substantial sum was donated from the fighting fund of Upper Clyde Shipbuilders. I am sure that would not have pleased many people who gave money to this fund thinking that they were saving the shipyard and the jobs there. Instead some of the money was used to support rebel councillors in Clydebank. There were donations from trade unions such as the NUM which at the time was explaining that its members did not have enough to live on. It seems that this £5,000 was largely covered by voluntary donations from these worthy bodies.
      On 8th November a default order was imposed with respect to the second phase of the rent increase. Once again Clydebank defied the law. A fine of £20,000 was imposed on 14th December 1973. By this time the effects of the Act were becoming clearer. Three out of every 10 tenants were getting rent rebates, the average rebate amounting to £75 per annum. At this stage even the Upper Clyde Shipbuilders Fighting Fund and the National Union of Mineworkers had rather lost sympathy with the silly councillors of Clydebank who were making

      1459
      asses of themselves. So no voluntary donations were forthcoming. The sum of £20,000 had to be paid one way or the other. In January 1974 the council decided to pay, and there were no voluntary donations.
      It would be the final insult to the ratepayers of Clydebank and of Scotland as a whole if there were to be any question of the fine imposed on the authority because of law breaking by 11 out of 21 of its councillors being paid from the rates. I therefore hope that the Minister will accept that this is a reasonable amendment.
      We are moving into rather troubled times in which there will be a substantial increase in unemployment. We could argue about the reasons for this. There will be some civil disturbances as a consequence. We are moving into a very testing time for Scotland as a whole. In these circumstances, when there will be many temptations to break the law on the part of ratepayers who feel aggrieved and on the part of unemployed people who feel aggrieved, the obligation on the Government is to ensure that we have respect for the law.
      However, the Labour Party has done the very opposite. It has encouraged defiance of the law, and in opposition not only did it encourage defiance of the law but it promised to sort it out—
      Mr. Millan: No, we did not.
      Mr. Taylor: I wish the Minister of State had served on the Standing Committee and had heard the speeches made there by some members of the party of which he is a member. He would be just as ashamed as I am of some of the scandalous remarks made by some of his colleagues. If the hon. Member had heard the outrageous speech made by the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire I am sure that he would have wanted to dissociate himself from it, as did hon. Members on this side.
      We want the Government to uphold the law and to promote a respect for it. Instead of that, elements within the Labour Party and some of their extremist allies encouraged defiance of the law and promised to sort everything out when the election—in which they hoped to be successful—was over.
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      There is this provision in Clause 19. In Committee the Government succeeded after a furious battle in which we were grateful for the moral support of the hon. Member for Argyll (Mr. MacCormick). I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman is not here tonight. He made an outstanding speech in Committee. His speech had the support of every one of us on this side. Not only was his speech outstanding, but he had become convinced by the arguments which we advanced on Second Reading. Unfortunately, on Second Reading the Scottish National Party supported the Government. Between Second Reading and the Committee stage a change of mind occurred. This was a triumph for democracy. In Committee the hon. Gentleman pointed out that the Scottish National Party regarded it as shameful for the Labour Party and the Government to carry on in this scandalous way.
      I am glad that tonight we have not one but no fewer than five members of the Scottish National Party who will stand up with the Conservative Party and the Liberal Party for democracy and for upholding the law of the land and not stand for those who are undermining the law, who are making an ass of the law, and who are bringing the law into disrepute.
      I want publicly to say how greatly I appreciate the fact that a party which I have criticised in the House in the past has the guts to change its mind on an issue like this. Its members have the guts to see that they have made an error of judgment and principle. They changed their minds between Second Reading and Report and they now say "We were wrong. We are now prepared to stand for support of the law and for authority." At a time when everything is going wrong with the country—
      Mr. David Lambie: With the Tory Party.
      Mr. Taylor: Not with the Tory Party. If the hon. Gentleman insists on making such narrow political points we shall not make any progress.
      At a time when so many things are going wrong with the nation, it is encouraging to me as a democrat that the Scottish National Party, which has emerged as one of the leading Scottish political parties, is prepared to change its

      1461
      mind, to admit that it is wrong, and to stand firmly for authority. I thank it for so doing. I appreciate the fact that the Scottish National Party Members have turned out in strength to support this change of policy.
      This is a very serious matter which goes to the root of the parliamentary process and respect for the law. Would it not be utterly shameful if there were any question of the ratepayers of Clydebank having to pay a £20,000 fine because of the scandalous and outrageous defiance of the law by 11 out of 21 councillors?
      There has been a change of heart by the Scottish National Party. I hope that there will be a similar change of heart by members of the Labour Party, most of whom have respect for law and democracy as being the basis of their political convictions. Let us see a similar transformation and let us insert the amendment in the Bill. Then the people of Scotland, and indeed Britain, will look to the future with more hope and more optimism.
      9.30 p.m.
      Mr. Dennis Canavan: I speak against the amendment. It is a bad amendment, and it was tabled with a bad intention. It is plain from the speech of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) that its purpose is to sabotage, at least in part, Clause 19 of this excellent Bill. Throughout the passage of the Bill, hon. Members opposite have picked on Clause 19 and made it a class battleground. They opposed it with extremist language on Second Reading. They opposed it in Committee. Now they propose this squalid little amendment to get a bit more publicity for their type of class warfare.
      I thought at first that the hon. Member for Cathcart was merely trying to ingratiate himself with his new leader so that he could get a wee bit of promotion over the head of the hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Buchanan-Smith). But this ploy appears to have been unsuccessful. He scurried around trying to obtain statistics from all over the place. He accused the Minister of State of possibly misleading the House. Despite his juggled statistics and arithmetic acrobatics, it is clear that if anyone was mis-
      1462
      leading the House it was the hon. Member for Cathcart.
      On Second Reading the hon. Member for Cathcart stated:
      "because of the defiance of the law by the rebel councillors in Clydebank and Glasgow, and no doubt in Denny and other places, the tenants in them have paid and are paying more rent than they would have paid if they had conformed to the Conservative Act".—[Official Report, 20th January 1975; Vol. 884, c. 1170.]
      It is clear from the reply to the hon. Gentleman's Question on 7th February that that is not the case. The amount of additional rent payable from 1st October 1972 to 27th January 1975 by tenants in Glasgow would have been £125·25 and in Clydebank £125·25 if the Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act had been implemented in 1972. In fact, the additional rent payable was £111·52 and £104·92 respectively. Perhaps the hon. Member for Cathcart would explain who was misleading the House with statistics.
      It is obvious that the hon. Member is merely attempting to resurrect the skeleton of the 1972 Act. I wonder whether he and his hon. Friends will ever learn the hard lesson. That battle has been fought and won. It is past. Yet, despite the fact that the Opposition lost it and we won it, they do not appear to have accepted the hard facts of life. They show no feeling of repentance.
      They are displaying their usual intransigence and conducting this warlike confrontation. The whole purpose of the amendment is to try to force certain councillors to end up in gaol. They are not content with having the Shrewsbury pickets in gaol. They would like people such as Clydebank councillors to be in gaol, too. That is the sort of confrontation policies they are after by the amendment.
      Although Conservative Members have been foolish and intransigent over this matter, at least they have been reasonably consistent—which is more than can be said of hon. Members of the Scottish National Party. The whole behaviour of the Scottish National Party over the Bill has been distinctly schizophrenic. That is one point on which the hon. Member for Cathcart might agree. On Second Reading the hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Reid) supported Clause 19 and appeared to

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      support it in its entirety. He said that in general he accepted it, when referring to the powers to be given to the Secretary of State. Yet in Committee, the hon. Member for Argyll (Mr. MacCormick) used words such as "obnoxious", "dishonest", and "an outrage", when referring to the same clause.
      It would appear that, as usual—just as on education, defence and many other issues—the Scottish National Party has a different policy in different constituencies. If the constituency represented by a particular Member of that party was traditionally a Labour constituency, the party has a policy to suit the former Labour voters. If the particular constituency that a Scottish National Party Member represents was formerly a Tory constituency, that Member adopts a different policy to suit his electorate. Scottish National Party Members remind me of that character from classical mythology called Janus, who is often depicted by classical artists as having two or possibly four faces, facing in as many different directions.
      I am sure, however, that the Scottish people will soon see through this two-faced or multi-faced attitude and be able to discern the differences between a party with consistent policies and a party which seems to consist of a tartan rag-bag of pseudo-politicians with pseudo-policies which contradict each other.
      The truth is that Clause 19 as it stands can bring to a successful and welcome conclusion one of the sorriest chapters of the whole history of local government in Scotland. Hon. Members should welcome the clause as it stands and resist the amendment. Those who are opposing the clause are merely reminding the electorate of the strong-arm, jackboot tactics which were used as a result of the Tories' Rent Act of 1972, when they attempted to force Scottish councillors, against their will and against the wishes of the Scottish people, to implement a bad Act.
      I commend the clause as it stands and I ask hon. Members to resist this horrible amendment.
      Mr. George Reid: I am grateful for the amount of attention which the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) and the hon. Member for West Stirling-
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      shire (Mr. Canavan) have devoted to my party. The only trouble is that tonight both of them could have spent more time looking at the essential issue, which is the Clydebank issue. On Second Reading I said that Clause 19 was a realistic assessment of the situation. That is still my view.
      Mr. Teddy Taylor: No.
      Mr. Reid: It is still the view of my party.
      Mr. Taylor: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
      Mr. Reid: No.
      Mr. Taylor: Mr. Speaker! This is intolerable, and—
      Mr. Speaker: Order. I had to ask an hon. Member last night whether she felt quite well. I hope that I do not have to do the same again tonight.
      Mr. Taylor: Is the hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Reid) now saying that the Scottish National Party supported this on Second Reading and opposed it in Committee, and that he is now supporting it again? How can we treat the SNP seriously? After this, no one could take the SNP seriously.
      Mr. Reid: My hon. Friend the Member for Argyll (Mr. MacCormick) made a characteristic speech which does not represent the views of the Scottish National Party. If the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) accorded to others the degree of freedom he claims for himself, he would have contributed more to our debate.
      The controversy over this clause has led to some hon. Members taking extreme positions. Some hon. Members are interested only in getting their pound of flesh out of the situation at Clydebank. This is not a black-and-white political issue. It is one of the grey areas which have to be examined carefully. The Clydebank situation is a mess. It has arisen because of the intransigence of the Clydebank councillors.
      The situation was brought about by the Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1972, which was deeply resented by the people of Scotland and which was pushed through by an English

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      Tory majority which had little consideration for the traditional housing practices north of the border. If there had been a Scottish Assembly in 1972, no piece of legislation such as that would ever have been enacted in Scotland.
      Against that background, it is not surprising that memories should run deep. I do not say that that is any justification for defying the law. Feelings were strong, and the attitude of the Conservative Government contributed to that situation.
      I do not wish to go too deeply into the question of political realignments. I am a social democrat. I hope some day to sit on the same benches as members of the Labour Party in a sovereign Scots Parliament.
      Some hon. Members have voted in favour of a surcharge of £20,000 being placed on councillors. That would weaken local government and make people think twice about entering local government.
      The situation in Cumbernauld is more interesting, because that issue has been put to local opinion. The local council held a referendum and asked the people whether they wished the council to go further or to stop, and it obeyed the decision of the people of Cumbernauld. It is a pity that that procedure was not followed in Clydebank.
      Mr. Teddy Taylor: Does the hon. Gentleman realise that of a total of 10,000 potential voters only 516 people voted?
      Mr. Reid: I agree that the number was small. However, the council agreed to abide by the results of that referendum.
      I do not accept the Conservative amendment. An attempt has been made to squeeze the last ounce of cheap political advantage out of the situation. I can see nothing in the clause which does not allow the final decision to be made by the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State must have regard to all the circumstances of the case, and it seems reasonable that he should look at the means of the persons involved in deciding whether the surcharge should be imposed in full or in part—in other words, to review the situation properly at the local, grass roots level.
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      We have heard a lot of humbug from Conservative Members. Their 1973 Act used virtually the same words and for virtually the same reasons because, in terms of surcharging, the 1947 Act imposed a straitjacket on any Secretary of State and there had to be some loosening of the bonds and restraints.
      There has to be some regard for the individual in a corporate charge of £20,000. Above all there has to be some consideration of the ability of the individual to pay. At the end of the day, I wonder whether the hon. Member for Cathcart would go so far as to say that people's possessions should be sold in order to satisfy what is pure dogma on his part.
      Mr. Teddy Taylor: What about the ratepayers?
      9.45 p.m.
      Mr. Reid: I am sorry that the previous amendment was not selected. When the Secretary of State is having due regard to the situation, they should be regarded too. However we cannot punish people; we cannot squeeze money out of them that they do not have. The right of individual councillors is the same as that of any criminal brought before a Scottish court. The court has regard to the means of the individual to pay. It is rotten justice if a Scottish councillor does not have the same right.
      The Minister has conducted Clause 19 through this House in a quiet and responsible way. With the exception of my hon. and maverick Friend the Member for Argyll, he has the support of my party.
      Mr. Lambie: I want to take up the arguments of the hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Reid) and of my hon. Friend the Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Canavan), urging the Government to resist the amendment. I want also to congratulate my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on getting a better deal for his defaulting councillors than the Secretary of State for the Environment got for his in England and Wales.
      In view of recent events in the Tory Party, I am surprised to hear Conservative Members criticising people who disobey the law. Both on the Floor of the House and in Committee I have been

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      challenged to say publicly whether I thought at some stage that people should be willing to stand up and be counted on this issue. In my view, on a matter of principle which does not affect me as an individual but which affects groups of people collectively, I am prepared to stand up to oppose the law if I believe it to be a vicious law aimed at the people whom I represent and which was imposed on those people by a minority party and a minority Government in their own country.
      As I say, in view of the recent history of the Conservative Party, I am surprised that the Conservatives have not changed their policy and decided to support the arguments which my hon. Friend the Member for West Stirlingshire and I have been putting forward continually during this debate.
      After all, the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) would not have been elected leader of her party if it had not been for the fact that in the early part of the century women were prepared to stand up, to be counted and to break the law. They were prepared to oppose the Government. They were prepared to oppose the male chauvinist pigs who superimposed the law of the country upon them. They were prepared to come to the Central Lobby to take part in riots. They were prepared to go to Downing Street to take part in riots. They were prepared to go to prison. In certain conditions they were prepared even to die for what they believed.
      The hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) must recognise that a woman is now leader of his party because others were prepared to break the law. It may be that he does not recognise that fact because he has not got a job. But I am surprised that the hon. Member for North Angus and Mearns (Mr. Buchanan-Smith) has allowed himself to be led up the garden path. He has received a job, as a result of a democratic process in which people are prepared to stand up and be counted and are willing to break the law.
      I put it to the Conservative Opposition that they should do the same as the Scottish National Party. They should say that the hon. Member for Cathcart no longer represents the view of the Conservative Party in Scotland, despite the
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      fact that he still wears two hats when he goes canvassing. He wears his bowler hat in the Tory areas and his Keir Hardie cloth cap when he goes into the Castle-milk estate. In spite of that, he still does not have a seat in the Shadow Cabinet.
      This is a matter of principle. The position is that 51 Scottish Members out of 71 support the clause. We cannot say that 52 Members support it because the hon. Member for Argyll (Mr. MacCormick) defected from the policy of the Scottish National Party. I believe that I am to blame for that. I taunted him and called him a Tory. He could not stand it any longer, so he had to make a speech to show that he really was a Tory. I am glad that the rest of the Tories in the SNP are supporting the Government on this issue.
      As I have said, 51 Scottish Members representing Scottish constituencies out of a total of 71 support the clause. This is the majority opinion of the people of Scotland. It was just unfortunate that in 1972 the United Kingdom was ruled by an English majority. Scotland was ruled by a minority of English Tory Members who enforced their will and policies on the Scottish people. In the circumstances it is right that we should place the name of the SNP councillors involved in Clydebank and Cumbernauld upon the roll of honour along with Labour colleagues and people from all parties who resisted the attacks of the Tory Party.
      I hope that the Government will resist the amendment and that we shall continue go forward sweeping the decks in Scotland.
      Mr. David Steel: I had not intended to speak tonight because this is the third occasion on which this matter has been debated during the passage of the Bill. I, for one, had sympathy with the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) in his fit of apoplexy tonight. I was rendered speechless, and then in the next moment I was moved to speak, due to the remarks of the hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Reid) on behalf of the Scottish National Party.
      Like other Members who served on the Committee we listened with great interest to the speech of the hon. Member for

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      Argyll (Mr. MacCormick). The hon. Gentleman represented the SNP in Committee. I draw the attention of the House to what the hon. Gentleman said in Committee on 4th February 1975—namely:
      "The clause gives the Secretary of State for Scotland the almost unheard of discretion of casting aside what has been the law. He can change the law as it applies to certain people. We all know our Scottish history. I suggest that the sort of powers that the Secretary of State will be given are similar to the disgraceful powers once wielded by the Lords of the Articles in the old Scottish Parliament."
      Apparently the hon. Gentleman knows his Scottish history better than some other hon. Members. He continued:
      "It is not just a question of the discretionary powers that are to be given to the Secretary of State. There are other broad matters of principle involved."
      The hon. Gentleman said that it was not just a question of policy or grey areas, as the hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire suggested, but a question of policy. He the said:
      "Before moving on to those matters I am saying that it is particularly obnoxious that such discretionary powers should be given to a Secretary of State for a purely political purpose."
      He ended quite simply by saying:
      "This is a dishonest clause, and, further, it is an outrage. It is anathema to anyone who has any feeling of natural justice. I strongly recommend all hon. Members who have decided to support this clause to reconsider and, to use the parody of the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Lambie), to remember that we are Scotsmen and that Scotland has always had, more than most countries, a high regard for the rule of law. Let us not destroy that high regard by destroying the whole basis on which laws are founded."—[Official Report, First Scottish Standing Committee, 6th February 1975, c. 108–10.]
      I and my colleagues have always stood firm on the question of retrospective legislation. We, too, opposed the Tory Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act, but we accept that the law passed by Parliament is the law of the land. Once Governments start changing the law in retrospect, we are on a slippery slope. I am sorry that the speech of high principle by the hon. Member for Argyll has been cast so lightly aside by the speech of his hon. Friend that we have heard tonight.
      Mr. Hamish Gray: I do not want to follow too closely the speech of the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Lambie). I heard that speech in Committee, I did not particularly like it then and I liked it even less tonight. He said that 51 Scottish MPs supported this proposal. That does not mean they are right. I would not mind if 70 were in favour of it. I still could not accept it.
      I agree entirely with the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. Steel) that we should always stand for the rule of law. If we do not stand for upholding the law, how can we expect people outside to do so?
      Mr. Lambie: What about the suffragettes?
      Mr. Gray: The hon. Member may give give that example, but the point is that this law was passed, under a Conservative Government. Whether it was a good law or not is not relevant. It was passed by the House of Commons. It was wilfully disobeyed in England by the notorious Clay Cross Council and in Scotland by the equally notorious Clydebank Council. That was wrong. They broke the law. We must at all times be seen to uphold the law.
      I was therefore bitterly disappointed in the speech of the hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Reid). Although I disagree with the Scottish National Party on many issues, until now I had always thought that it believed in upholding the law. I was shattered to hear the hon. Member proclaim on behalf of his party—some of his hon. Friends would wish, I am sure, to dissociate themselves from him—that it was in favour of the action taken by the Clydebank councillors and others.
      The people of Scotland will not easily overlook that kind of statement. No longer should the SNP move around Tory constituencies in the guise of Tories and Socialist seats in the guise of Socialists. As long as they uphold that sort of view, there is no mistaking the side of the House on which they should be sitting.
      I was disappointed that the hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire should have dissociated himself from his hon. Friend the Member for Argyll

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      (Mr. MacCormick) because I, too, admired the latter's speech in Committee. It was a brave speech, against the party line which had been given on Second Reading.
      Mr. Steel: As a member of the Committee, the hon. Member should recall that the hon. Member for Argyll (Mr. MacCormick) at no time said that he was speaking against the party line. We understood that he was speaking for his party.
      Mr. Gray: The hon. Gentleman is correct. We did assume that, but the SNP seems to have variable opinions on this matter. We are not sure which is the party line. We shall see in the Lobbies tonight. The people of Scotland will no doubt note on which side they vote or whether they abstain.
      In any event, I support the amendment and I hope that the House will seriously consider what it is doing. Let us from now on make it a rule to support the rule of law. If we do not like the law, we should try to change it by democratic methods.
      Mr. Rifkind: I was fascinated by the suggestion of the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Lambie) that, because there had not been a majority for the Conservative Party in Scotland, in some way this made the Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act much less important than they would otherwise have been. On the same basis, no doubt he will have compassion for the people of England who, but for the Labour majorities in Wales and Scotland, would not have to suffer the iniquities of the present Labour Government. No doubt they will have the same sort of problems and our hearts go out to them.
      It was perhaps appropriate that the hon. Member for Clackmannan and East Stirlingshire (Mr. Reid) and the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire spoke with a single voice—[Interruption.]
      It being Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.
      Ordered,
      That the Local Government (Scotland) Bill may be proceeded with at this day's sitting, though opposed, until any hour.—[Mr. James Hamilton.]
      Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.
      Mr. Rifkind: I was saying that it was appropriate that those two hon. Gentlemen should speak with a single voice. Both the Labour Party and the SNP seek to uphold the breaking of the law, disrespect for the law and support for those who would flout its observance. However, it shows that there is a difference of view among the members of the SNP. Indeed, the initials could stand for the phrase "Sorry No Policy".
      I was impressed to see eight members of the SNP present this evening—[An HON. MEMBER: "They are Tories".] I thought that we were about to have a personal testament from each hon. Member in that party saying whether they agreed with the common party view or dissociated themselves from it.
      It was unfortunate that there should be criticism of one of their colleagues who was not present, the hon. Member for Argyll (Mr. MacCormick). It is clear that in Committee the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr. Henderson), as his party's Whip, was seeking to establish that the representatives of his party would support the policy of the SNP. However, no doubt the members of that party want to be all things to all people. The SNP has acted disgracefully in this matter and they will not be allowed to forget their behaviour.
      The important point which is involved in this amendment is the question of principle. The hon. Member for Central Ayrshire mentioned suffragettes. It is unfortunate that he should lower the glorious reputation of the suffragettes and try to bring them to the same base level as the people with whom we are dealing in this debate. There is one important and fundamental distinction between the action taken by the suffragettes and what was done by the councillors at Clydebank and Clay Cross. The suffragettes not only broke the law for a principle but were prepared to pay the consequences of that disregard of the law. They were prepared to pay the consequences and, furthermore, they did not expect to ask ratepayers and taxpayers to bear those consequences for them.
      The basic objection to this provision and the purpose of the amendment is that those who sought to break the law should now be made to suffer as a result

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      of their action. However, they are not prepared to take the consequences.
      There is a clear option open to the gentlemen in question. We are not talking simply of defiance of the law, they eventually came before the court. It was made clear to them that, having taken the view that it was a matter of principle, it was then open to them to obey the law and if that happened no further action would be taken. Having made that declaration of principle, they refused to implement the law and were fined. They did not consult the ratepayers whom they represented, nor did they resign and submit themselves to re-election in order to discover whether they had the support of the ratepayers. Instead, they were prepared to go ahead in that situation for many months, and at the end of the day when they found that they were in difficulties they came to Labour Members and asked them to assist. They now expect ratepayers to get them out of the mess. We cannot be expected to have any respect for people who act like that.
      It is wrong and improper for the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire to bring the suffragettes into disrepute by suggesting that there is a comparison. We are concerned not with the initial breaking of the law, however bad, but with whether people who break it are prepared to take the consequences. If they are, that at least proves their integrity and consistency. It proves that they are people of honour, prepared to suffer for a principle in which they believe. The essential difference is that the people to whom the hon. Gentleman refers are prepared to shout about principles but prefer to see other people suffering for them.
      We hope, therefore, that the House will favourably consider this worthwhile and honourable amendment. I hope that the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. Wilson), who is a member of the legal profession, will contribute to the debate. It will be interesting to learn how one who seeks to uphold the law explains his position. Perhaps, like his hon. Friend the Member for Argyll, he is prepared to take an honourable course. If not, I shall be fascinated to hear his justification for an alternative course.
      Mr. Gordon Wilson: I had not intended to speak in the debate until I
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      saw the clownish behaviour of the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) at the Dispatch Box. It was regrettable and beneath the dignity of the House that someone who would like to be a member of the Shadow Cabinet should behave so absurdly.
      There has been a great deal of exaggeration in the debate. We are discussing an amendment, but we seem to have gone through the whole Second Reading stage of excitement, exaggeration and loud speaking. I should like to direct attention to the terms of the amendment and the clause.
      First, I wish to deal with references to my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll (Mr. MacCormick). I do not agree with my hon. Friend's view on this matter although I agree with him on many other matters. But he made a substantial contribution to the debate in Committee, and I am glad that many hon. Members have paid tribute to it.
      In a sense, we in the Scottish National Party are being condemned out of a position of weakness in the House. On the basis of the vote at the last election, we should be entitled to five or six members of the Committee which discussed the Bill. [Interruption.] Certainly we should be entitled to three. We are perhaps prepared to concede one more to the Conservatives, not on the basis of vote but because of the number of Scottish Members they have in the House. We are allowed only one Member in Scottish Standing Committees. It is as if the Government had been represented on the Committee considering the District Courts Bill by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Springburn (Mr. Buchanan). By voting against the Government's district courts proposals, he might have been thought to turn round the whole of the Government's policy.
      We are seeing the right of individual back benchers to indicate their views and stand by them in Committee even if on occasion they go against their own party. It is admirable that any hon. Member should do that. He should not be subjected to cat-calls from other Opposition Members.
      Mr. Rifkind: If, as is the case, the Scottish National Party had only one representative on the Committee, why did

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      it choose the one member of its party who disagreed with its policy?
      Mr. Wilson: The hon. Gentleman is being a bit simplistic. The Committee was dealing with a number of aspects of local government. It may be said that there is only one controversial part, but the Bill stands as a whole and it is a substantial document of 63 pages.
      Why, if the Opposition are standing so tightly and strongly by their own principles, have they abandoned an amendment which related to the general surcharge? They have made no attempt to follow the point which they made on Second Reading and in Committee. Yet they are prepared, when it comes to the question of a fine, that there should be a different standard from that which might apply to the general surcharge, although they took a different attitude when the matter first came up in debate. They cannot have it both ways, yet that is what they are trying to do by moving an amendment narrowed down to the question of any fine which may have been levied on a corporate body—the corporation of a local authority. In doing that they have conceded that it may be fair and proper for the Secretary of State for Scotland to be given some discretion over the size of the penalty or surcharge which might be made on councillors.
      The Scottish National Party would not assent to the proposition that there should be no penalty or surcharge on councillors who stood by their beliefs. Councillors who do that should expect to find some surcharge levied against them.
      Coming to the standard here and going back to the 1973 legislation, the general principle is, should that penalty be related to the circumstances of the offending councillors? I did not practise in the high court, like the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Rifkind), but my experience is that the sheriffs, magistrates or lower courts always pay attention to the means of persons brought before them. I am sure that had the Clydebank councillors, to take one pertinent example, been brought before the Court of Session, any fine levied upon them as a result of their non-observance of the legislation would have been related to their means as individuals. Instead, because it was a corporate decision, the court had no alternative but to insist
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      upon the execution of the law and to impose a penalty which would force a substantial body such as a local authority to move on the issue, and eventually it succeeded in doing so.
      But the penalty suitable for a local authority—I believe that the figure of £20,000 has been quoted—would not necessarily have been the penalty visited upon such councillors had they appeared individually before the tribunal concerned. That is the basis of the points which have been made by my hon. Friends in the debate.
      Clause 19 provides that the Secretary of State
      "shall have regard to all the circumstances of the case".
      That might include the circumstances of ratepayers in a locality and the need to dissuade people from breaking the law. That is one factor which should weigh strongly with the Secretary of State for Scotland when he makes his decision as a Member of the executive.
      The clause goes on,
      "including such information as may be available to him as to the means of any person against whom a surcharge might be made".
      That the penalty should be suited to the means of any person is an important principle. I should not like to see the lack of a discretion which would permit people to be hounded, perhaps to have their wages arrested over a long period, to have their furniture seized or to be made bankrupt. One result of the sequestration of assets is that a person cannot hold a tenancy. Therefore, it could mean the splitting up of families. The clause provides that the Secretary of State for Scotland should have discretion to fit the penalty to the means of the offender as well as to the circumstances of the offence and that both situations should be weighed. The ratepayers have it in their hands, as electors, to deal with councillors whom they think are reckless and irresponsible.
      The clause provides that the Secretary of State is still empowered to make a surcharge in whole or in part, having taken account of the circumstances. I hope that he will take account of the circumstances and will decide to relate the penalty to the circumstances of the offence and the means of those councillors who took the wrong viewpoint.

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      I cannot agree with the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands that there is a strong degree of retrospection in this legislation. As I said on Second Reading, an attempt has been made to vary the regulations. No decision is being specifically recalled and had the Secretary of State or any other Minister attempted by legislation to recall a decision already made by a predecessor, be he of the same party or another party, I would unhesitatingly have asked my hon. Friends to join me in the Lobby to vote against such a proposal.
      We are dealing here with a variation of criteria. The Opposition conceded in their 1973 Act that it is necessary for the Secretary of State to have some discretion. If they conceded that, then I ask them to concede it now and not waste the time of Parliament in a lot of political mud slinging about the Bill which they would do well to accept if they wish to be reestablished in Scotland as a credible political organisation.
      10.15 p.m.
      Mr. Millan: The amendment is fairly narrow but it has caused the whole question of Clause 19 to be reopened. I said a great deal on Second Reading and in Committee about the clause and there is not a lot that I can add to that. As the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. Wilson) said, the provision in Clause 19 is substantially the same as that which the previous Conservative Government put into their 1973 Act. That Act specifically changed the then existing 1947 legislation, and the change will be applicable from 16th May 1975 when the new authorities begin to operate.
      In spite of all the fire and fury from the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) on Second Reading, in Committee and again this evening, we have heard no explanation from the Conservatives why the 1947 provision was replaced by the 1973 Act. The provision in that Act was considered so unexceptionable and was in such generally agreeable terms that it was not even debated. We must assume that the Conservative Government found that the 1947 provisions were too narrow and that they did not allow the Secretary of State sufficient flexibility to deal with surcharge reports which might be submitted to him.
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      I made clear on Second Reading that the intention of Clause 19 was to import a degree of flexibility into the present situation. That will be available after 16th May this year for the new authorities and it will enable us to deal with the housing default orders which are before the Secretary of State.
      There was no distinction drawn in the 1973 Act, and there will be none after 16th May 1975, between default orders generally and default orders in respect of fines. They are dealt with in exactly the same way. In the 1973 Act the then Tory Government did not see fit to make the sort of distinction about surcharges which Conservative Members now attempt to make. The 1973 Act went through the House at a time when there was considerable controversy and the possibility that certain authorities would refuse to carry out the duties being placed on them by the 1972 Act. Local authorities held dear the right to fix their own rents. Nevertheless the 1973 measure went through without any steps being taken to make the distinction between default orders that are being argued now.
      There is an element of inconsistency—I use that word rather than the harsher words of "humbug" and "hypocrisy"—in what the hon. Member for Cathcart was saying. If he is so anxious to expose what he sees to be inconsistencies in the Scottish National Party, he might care at some time to explain the inconsistency between what the Tory Government did in 1973 and what his party is attempting to do now.
      I am grateful for the support of the Scottish National Party, which voted in favour of the Second Reading of this Bill. There was a slight contretemps in Committee. I am glad to see that the SNP has now returned to the fold. The hon. Member for Argyll (Mr. MacCormick) has been mentioned. I suppose that there are black sheep in every family. However, he seems to have strayed away somewhere else this evening, fortunately for all of us.
      I do not object to what the hon. Member said in Committee, because this is a matter on which hon. Members might well hold strong views. The fact remains that we are doing here what the Tory Government did in 1973. I shall not rehearse all the arguments about the

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      1973 Act, except to say that it represented an attempt by the then Government to dictate to local authorities in a way which they found thoroughly unacceptable.
      I will not say what the Secretary of State may do with regard to any of these default reports if the clause goes through unamended. This will be strictly for him to decide in the light of the circumstances, as the clause puts it. He will be able to take into account the fact that the law was defied and the circumstances of the case, including the means of the persons concerned. This is obviously an important consideration. We must have regard to the realities of the situation. To pretend that some of the surcharges could be met, with the figures involved—not only in Clydebank but elsewhere—would be to fly in the face of the facts. The councillors could not be surcharged in any realistic sense for the figures that are involved. That would not have happened under the previous Government any more than it would happen under this Government.
      I have bad news for the hon. Member for Cathcart. The amendment is, unfortunately, erroneously drafted. I am sorry to add to the hon. Gentleman's burdens, because I know that it has not been a good week for him. He attempted to show that the effect of the councillors disobeying the law was that the unfortunate tenants concerned had to pay more rent than they would have done if the councillors had obeyed the law. The hon. Gentleman had about six attempts at tabling the right Question to produce that remarkable result. Unfortunately, when he eventually got the right Question he got, from his point of view, the wrong answer, because the answer demonstrated that he was completely wrong.
      Tonight the hon. Gentleman was anxious to skate over that aspect of the matter and not to go into it in the great detail which attracted him at an earlier stage. Having made an error about that, it is a great pity that the hon. Gentleman should have made an error about the amendment. It would not have the effect that hon. Members have in mind. The amendment, with its reference to the subsection not applying, would have the effect of disapplying the whole subsection
      1480
      of the 1947 Act which imposes the possibility of surcharges. In other words, if the amendment were to be carried it would not be open to the Secretary of State to impose any surcharges where a fine is at issue. That is what the distinguished lawyers on the Conservative side of the House who have no doubt drafted the amendment will be writing into the Bill if they push the amendment to a Division and succeed.
      Hon. Members may wish to reconsider the matter. It is a pity that our rules do not allow for a brief adjournment at this stage. Perhaps the hon. Member will wish to reconsider the amendment, which was misconceived in intent from the beginning, is misconceived in principle and is also, I am sorry to say, misconceived in drafting.
      Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: The Minister is perfectly correct in saying that our wording may be defective. However, I can assure him that that could be easily put right by the next stage of the Bill.
      The Minister informed my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor), whose excellent speech I have pleasure in supporting, that he was incorrect in suggesting that those tenants who paid rent in Clydebank were paying more as a result of the defiance of the law. The reply given by the Secretary of State confirms that every year the council house tenants of Clydebank are paying more than £17 extra as a result of the defiance of the law, because the rents had to be made up and they were put up much higher than they would otherwise have been. I mention this fact so that those paying rent in Clydebank know what the true position is.
      I am glad that the members of the Scottish National Party made their position clear. It was somewhat discreditable of the Scottish Nationalist Members that they attacked their colleague the hon. Member for Argyll (Mr. MacCormick) in his absence. This means now that every time a Member of the Scottish National Party appears on a Committee he will have to say in advance whether his views represent those of his party. It is clear that we believed that the hon. Member was putting forward the policy

      1481
      of the Scottish National Party. He was not.
      10.30 p.m.
      We strongly disagree with the principle in the clause that councillors who defy the law should be indemnified retrospectively. The essence of the clause is retrospective legislation. The Minister should accept that this let-off provision should not apply to the £20,000 fine imposed by the High Court of Justiciary on the Clydebank councillors for contempt of court. If the clause is accepted unamended, it will be the ratepayers of Clydebank who will contribute to the payment of the fine. It is unfair and
      unjust to penalise ratepayers because certain councillors have defied the law.
      Mr. Millan: I gather from the equivocal speech of the hon Member for Edinburgh, West (Lord James Douglas-Hamilton) that the Opposition intend to press the amendment. I do not know why I should be so charitable as to save them from themselves, but, in view of the nonsense that it would make of the clause, I must recommend my hon. Friends to vote against the amendment.
      Question put, That the amendment be made:—
      The House divided: Ayes 68, Noes 129.

      Division No. 99.]

      AYES

      [10.31 p.m.

      Beith, A. J.

      Hawkins, Paul

      Mudd, David

      Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham)

      Hayhoe, Barney

      Neave, Airey

      Biffen, John

      Hicks, Robert

      Neubert, Michael

      Boscawen, Hon Robert

      Hooson, Emlyn

      Rathbone, Tim

      Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown)

      Howells, Geraint (Cardigan)

      Rifkind, Malcolm

      Brittan, Leon

      Hunt, John

      Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)

      Brotherton, Michael

      Hurd, Douglas

      Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

      Buchanan-Smith, Alick

      Hutchison, Michael Clark

      Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire)

      Budgen, Nick

      Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

      St. John-Stevas, Norman

      Carlisle, Mark

      Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)

      Shepherd, Colin

      Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton)

      James, David

      Sims, Roger

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Kershaw, Anthony

      Skeet, T. H. H.

      Corrie, John

      King, Evelyn (South Dorset)

      Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)

      Dean, Paul (N Somerset)

      Lane, David

      Stainton, Keith

      Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

      Latham, Michael (Melton)

      Stanbrook, Ivor

      Fairbairn, Nicholas

      Lawrence, Ivan

      Steel, David (Roxburgh)

      Fairgrieve, Russell

      Le Marchant, Spencer

      Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)

      Farr, John

      Lester, Jim (Beeston)

      Stokes, John

      Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

      Luce, Richard

      Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)

      Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd)

      Macfarlane, Neil

      Tebbit, Norman

      Freud, Clement

      Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

      Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)

      Gardiner, George (Reigate)

      Mather, Carol

      Townsend, Cyril D.

      Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

      Mawby, Ray

      Viggers, Peter

      Goodhew, Victor

      Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

      Wainwright, Richard (Coine V)

      Gray, Hamish

      Mayhew, Patrick

      Walder, David (Clitheroe)

      Grieve, Percy

      Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove)

      Winterton, Nicholas

      Grimond, Rt Hon J.

      Moate, Roger

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Monro, Hector

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      Hannam, John

      Montgomery, Fergus

      Mr. John Stradling Thomas and

      Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss

      Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

      Mr. Adam Butler.

      NOES

      Allaun, Frank

      Dalyell, Tam

      Harper, Joseph

      Ashton, Joe

      Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

      Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

      Atkins, Ronald (Preston N)

      Dempsey, James

      Henderson, Douglas

      Atkinson, Norman

      Doig, Peter

      Hoyle, Doug (Nelson)

      Bain, Mrs Margaret

      Dormand, J. D.

      Huckfield, Les

      Bates, Alf

      Douglas-Mann, Bruce

      Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N)

      Bean, R. E.

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Hunter, Adam

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      Dunn, James A.

      Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln)

      Boardman, H.

      Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun)

      Janner, Greville

      Booth, Albert

      Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen)

      John, Brynmor

      Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

      Evans, John (Newton)

      Johnson, Walter (Derby S)

      Buchanan, Richard

      Ewing, Harry (Stirling)

      Jones, Dan (Burnley)

      Canavan, Dennis

      Fernyhough, Rt Hon E.

      Kaufman, Gerald

      Cartwright, John

      Flannery, Martin

      Kerr, Russell

      Clemitson, Ivor

      Ford, Ben

      Kinnock, Neil

      Cocks, Michael (Bristol S)

      Forrester, John

      Lambie, David

      Coleman, Donald

      Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin)

      Lamond, James

      Cook, Robin F. (Edin C)

      George, Bruce

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Corbett, Robin

      Golding, John

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Cox, Thomas (Tooting)

      Gould, Bryan

      Loyden, Eddie

      Craigen, J. M. (Maryhill)

      Gourlay, Harry

      Luard, Evan

      Crawford, Douglas

      Graham, Ted

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)

      Cryer, Bob

      Grocott, Bruce

      McCartney, Hugh

      Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh)

      Hamling, William

      McElhone, Frank

      McGuire, Michael (Ince)

      Parry, Robert

      Stoddart, David

      Mackenzie, Gregor

      Peart, Rt Hon Fred

      Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

      Mackintosh, John P.

      Perry, Ernest

      Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)

      Maclennan, Robert

      Price, William (Rugby)

      Thompson, George

      McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)

      Radice, Giles

      Tinn, James

      McNamara, Kevin

      Reid, George

      Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)

      Madden, Max

      Robertson, John (Paisley)

      Walker, Terry (Kingswood)

      Magee, Bryan

      Roderick, Caerwyn

      Watt, Hamish

      Marks, Kenneth

      Rodgers, George (Chorley)

      Wellbeloved, James

      Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

      Rooker, J. W.

      White, Frank R. (Bury)

      Meacher, Michael

      Rose, Paul B.

      White, James (Pollok)

      Mendelson, John

      Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilm'nock)

      Williams, Alan (Swansea W)

      Millan, Bruce

      Selby, Harry

      Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

      Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen)

      Sillars, James

      Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)

      Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

      Skinner, Dennis

      Wise, Mrs Audrey

      Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King

      Small, William

      Woof, Robert

      Noble, Mike

      Snape, Peter

      Young, David (Bolton E)

      O'Halloran, Michael

      Spearing, Nigel

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      Ovenden, John

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Mr. James Hamilton and

      Parker, John

      Stallard, A. W.

      Mr. Laurie Pavitt.

      Question accordingly negatived.

    Clause 32

      INTERPRETATION OF PART II
      Mr. Millan: I beg to move Amendment No. 15, in page 25, line 40, leave out subsection (2).
      Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Oscar Murton): With this we are to consider Government Amendments Nos. 16 and 17.
      Mr. Millan: The effect of the three amendments is to put the new definition, which is now in Clause 32, into the place where it properly belongs, which is Clause 35. That means that some of the specific definitions in Clause 35 are no longer necessary, which is the effect of Amendment No. 16. These are basically tidying up, drafting amendments.
      Amendment agreed to.

    Clause 35

      GENERAL INTERPRETATION
      Amendments made: No. 16, in page 26, leave out lines 28 to 31.
      No. 17, in page 27, line 10, at end insert—
      '(2) Expressions used in this Act and in the Act of 1973 shall have the same meanings in this Act as in that Act.'.—[Mr. Millan.]

    Schedule 1

      LANDS AND HERITAGES TO WHICH SECTION 6 APPLIES
      Mr. Millan: I beg to move Amendment No. 18, in page 28, line 5, at end insert
      'other than excepted premises as defined in paragraph 1 of Schedule 2 to that Act'.
      This amendment picks up the point made in Committee by the hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) concerning dwelling houses in relation to water undertakings. As I explained then, and in a recent letter to the hon. Gentleman, it is not intended that dwelling houses shall in any circumstances come within the special provisions of Schedule 1 under the assessor of public undertakings valuations.
      1486
      The way in which Schedule 1 is drafted has the effect of specifically excluding dwellinghouses at every point except in the drafting of paragraph 1. The hon. Gentleman pointed out that anomaly in Committee. I am grateful to him for that. I have put the matter right by means of Amendment No. 18.
      Mr. Teddy Taylor: I am grateful to the Minister for his action and for his explanation.
      To remove any doubt, will he say whether this provision applies to caretakers' and watchmen's houses within the confines of a water undertaking?
      Mr. Millan: I think that it will apply to dwellinghouses generally, yes.
      Amendment agreed to.

    Schedule 3

      BORROWING AND LENDING BY LOCAL AUTHORITIES AND CERTAIN OF THEIR FUNDS.
      10.45 p.m.
      Mr. Millan: I beg to move Amendment No. 19, in page 35, line 47, leave out 'period of account' and insert 'year'.
      We come now to a series of Government amendments up to and including Amendment No. 41 which are all directed towards a redrafting of Schedule 3. If I were to make a general explanation of what we are attempting here, perhaps it would be for the convenience of the House to consider them together. None of these raises any point of principle.
      I have already circulated to those hon. Members who were members of the Standing Committee a revised version of Schedule 3, so that they will have been able to judge whether we are making any proposals to which they are opposed.
      Mr. Teddy Taylor: We are grateful to the Minister for sending us an explanation of this complicated schedule. We are quite happy to consider these amendments together.
      Mr. Millan: In that event, perhaps I might explain that Schedule 3 deals with borrowing and lending by local authorities and with certain of their funds. As drafted, it is basically a consolidation

      1487
      and restatement of the existing law. But many of the provisions are now out of date and, since Second Reading, we have discussed these matters with the local authority financial officers. They agree with us that it would be more satisfactory to take some of the detailed provisions out of the schedule and to provide for them by way of regulations.
      There is also a restatement and tidying up of a number of parts of the Schedule where we had not got the wording quite right. We have also made some rearrangement of the provisions. If any hon. Member feels unhappy about any part of the Schedule and lets me know about it between now and consideration of the Bill in the other place, I shall be happy to consider it and to see whether we can deal with it or explain what we are doing.
      Amendment agreed to.
      Amendments made:
      No. 20, in page 36, line 42, leave out 'derived'.
      No. 21, in line 46, leave out 'derived'.
      No. 22, in line 49, leave out 'derived from rates' and insert 'as aforesaid'.
      No. 23, in page 37, line 10, leave out paragraphs 8 to 10.
      No. 24, in page 38, line 37, after 'and', insert:
      'all money borrowed by a local authority by whatever method shall be deemed to have the same charge and security and shall rank pari passu'
      No. 25, in page 39, line 38, after 'thereon', insert:
      'and shall be part of the general fund of the authority'.
      No. 26, in line 39, leave out '16 to 36' and insert '15A to 35A'.
      No. 27, in line 42, at end insert—
      '15A.—(1) All capital assets and liabilities which are transferred to a local authority from an authority which ceases to exist on 16th May 1975, other than property which is subject to section 128 of the Act of 1973 or which is referred to in section 222(2) or 223 of that Act, shall be paid into or transferred to the loans fund of the local authority.
      (2) All investments transferred to the loans fund as from 16th May 1975 shall be entered in the accounts of the loans fund at the value shown on the account from which they are transferred.'.
      No. 28, in page 40, line 10, leave out paragraphs 17 to 32 and insert—
      '17.—(1) Subject to sub-paragraph (2) below, all sums advanced to a borrowing account of a local authority or to a relevant authority shall be repaid within the fixed period by equal yearly or half-yearly instalments of principal, or, where repayment is on the annuity system, by equal yearly or half-yearly instalments of principal and interest combined; and the authority shall in each year debit the borrowing account or charge to the relevant authority the sums required in that year for the repayment of the advance.
      (2) In any case where—

      (a) a local authority make an advance to any person and the expenditure incurred in making the advance is defrayed by borrowing; and

      (b) the terms of that advance are such that repayment is to be made otherwise than by equal yearly or half-yearly instalments of principal or of principal and interest combined; and

      (c) apart from this sub-paragraph, the local authority would have no power, with respect to the expenditure referred to in paragraph (a) above, to vary the sums which would otherwise be debited or charged under sub-paragraph (1) above or to suspend their obligation under that sub-paragraph,

      the local authority may, under sub-paragraph (1) above, debit to the borrowing account from which, or charge to the relevant authority by whom, the expenditure referred to in paragraph (a) above would otherwise fall to be defrayed, sums of different amounts (whether or not including instalments of principal) in respect of different years in order to take account of the terms on which their advance falls to be repaid.
      (3) Subject to paragraph 18 below, the first payment to the loans fund shall be made within twelve months, or where the money is repayable by half-yearly instalments within six months, from the date of the advance.
      18.—(1) Where a sum is advanced from the loans fund in accordance with paragraph 16 above for any of the following purposes—

      (a) meeting expenditure on the construction of new, or the extension or alteration of existing works forming or to form part of an undertaking of a revenue-producing character;

      (b) carrying out on land any other operations, being operations of a prescribed kind or operations specified in relation to that land by direction of the Secretary of State;

      (c) acquiring land for the purpose of the construction thereon of new, or the extension or alteration of existing, works forming or to form part of an undertaking of a revenue-producing character, or for the purpose of carrying out thereon of operations of a kind prescribed by virtue of paragraph (b) above, or operations specified in relation to that land by direction of the Secretary of State;

      1489

      (d) acquiring land specified by direction of the Secretary of State;

      the authority may, subject to the consent of the Secretary of State, suspend in whole or in part any annual provision required under paragraph 17 above for the repayment from the borrowing account or by the relevant authority of the sum so advanced for such period (not being a period longer than the period during which the expenditure remains unremunerative or the period of five years from the commencement of the year next after that in which the expenditure commences to be incurred, whichever is the shorter) and subject to such conditions as the Secretary of State may determine.
      (2) Where any annual provision required to be made for the repayment of any sum has been suspended under sub-paragraph (1) above, a local authority may borrow for the purpose of payment, during the period of the suspension, of interest on that sum.
      (3) Where by virtue of paragraph 17 above a local authority are required to debit a sum to the borrowing account or charge a sum to a relevant authority and they suspend, in whole or in part, any annual provision for the repayment of the principal, they may refrain from debiting to that account or charging to the relevant authority an amount equal to the amount of the annual provision so suspended.
      (4) In this paragraph "prescribed" means prescribed by regulations made by the Secretary of State.
      19.—(1) The authority shall at the time an advance is made under paragraph 16 above determine—

      (a) the period within which the advance is to be repaid to the loans fund, being a period not exceeding the fixed period; and

      (b) the amount of each of the periodical payments required to repay the advance within the period so determined, and the date on which the first of the said payments is to be made.

      (2) The periodical payments shall be either equal yearly or half-yearly instalments of principal or, where the advance is to be repaid on the annuity system, equal yearly or half-yearly instalments of principal and interest combined, the amount of principal included in each instalment being separately stated.
      (3)The periodical payments shall so far as practicable be so adjusted as to be expressed in complete pounds.
      (4) This paragraph shall apply with the necessary modifications in the case of advances from the loans fund to a relevant authority.'.
      No. 29, in page 46, line 23, after 'Schedule', insert:
      'or any regulations made thereunder'.
      No. 30, in line 26, at end insert:
      'or such regulations'.
      No. 31, in line 33, leave out paragraph 35 and insert—
      1490
      '35.—(1) If at any time any sums due by way of principal or interest on any security created by a local authority remain unpaid for a period of two months after demand in writing, the person entitled thereto, being the holder of such a security to the amount of not less than £1,000, or the persons entitled thereto, being the holders of such securities amounting together to not less than £2,000, may present a petition to the Court of Session for the appointment of a judicial factor, and the Court may, if they think fit, appoint a judicial factor.
      (2) Subject to the directions of the Court, the judicial factor shall have all the powers of the local authority or their proper officer of levying rates, making requisitions on rating authorities and collecting and recovering sums due to the authority in respect of rates or requisitions and any other sums whatsoever due to the authority and such other powers and duties as the Court think fit, and shall apply all moneys received by him, after payment of expenses including a proper remuneration for his trouble, as the Court direct for the purposes of this Schedule.
      (3) The judicial factor shall have such access to and use of the books and documents of the local authority as he may require.
      (4) The powers conferred by this paragraph shall be in addition to and not in derogation of any other powers competent to the holder of a security for enforcing payment of the sums due under the security.
      35A.—(1) Notwithstanding anything in this Schedule, the Secretary of State may by regulations make such provision as appears to him necessary or expedient with respect to the operation of the loans fund of a local authority and such regulations may apply generally or in the case of any particular authority or class of authority.
      (2) A statutory instrument containing regulations under this paragraph shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.'.
      No. 32, in page 47, line 9, at beginning insert:
      'Notwithstanding anything in any enactment.'.
      No. 33, in line 12, after 'be', insert:
      'advanced to the loans fund or'.
      No. 34, in page 48, line 32, after 'of', insert 'paragraphs 1 to 12 of'.
      No. 35, in line 35, leave out 'that section' and insert 'any enactment'.
      No. 36, in line 40, leave out from 'borrowed' to end of line 41 and insert
      'before the commencement of this Act by a local authority under a local enactment'.
      No. 37, in page 49, line 10, leave out 'money borrowed' and insert
      'sum advanced to a borrowing account or to a relevant authority'.
      No. 38, in line 11, leave out 'borrowing' and insert 'the advance'.
      No. 39, to leave out lines 15 and 16.
      No. 40, to leave out lines 19 and 20.
      No. 41, to leave out 'cash credit'.—[Mr. Millan.]

    Schedule 6

      ADAPTATION AND AMENDMENT OF ENACTMENTS
      Mr. Gordon Wilson: I beg to move Amendment No. 42, in page 53, line 12, at end insert
      'and for the purposes of the valuation roll for the year 1975–76 or any subsequent years, the definition of "lands and heritages" in the said section shall not include appliances for space heating, double glazing and wall and ceiling insulation which are situated or fitted in a building other than one occupied for any trade, business or manufacturing process'.
      The amendment deals with the definition of lands and heritages, that being the basic definition contained in the Valuation Acts. Despite the fact that it arises at a fairly late stage in dealing with this legislation, this is a matter of particular importance. When the Secretary of State for Energy made his statement on energy conservation on 9th December 1974 a question was raised about the disincentives which might be found in valuation for rating. If a person improves his house that can give rise to an increased valuation. That is the whole basis on which the valuation of domestic premises proceeds. Valuation is based upon a notional rent. Therefore, if a person adds a new bathroom, WC or garage, or installs central heating to improve his house, the assessor can increase the valuation. The matters that I have mentioned all give rise to an increased valuation.
      If central heating is installed there will be a 10 per cent. increase in valuation. If partial central heating is installed the increase could be 7½ per cent. or 5 per cent. In one local authority valuation area that principle also applies to double glazing. This has caused a considerable amount of concern to many people and it should be a matter of concern for the Government.
      There is a new policy—indeed, it is a sensible one—that energy should be con-
      1492
      served. That means that if a person sets out to have better standards of insulation—for example, double glazing or central heating which, despite many theories to the contrary, I am told is a much better and more efficient use of energy than many other forms of heating—he can face the absurd situation of an increased valuation. This will act as a disincentive to improvement leading to a reduced consumption of energy. In a sense an important part of the Government's policy on energy conservation hangs on this amendment.
      If we take the viewpoint that there is a need for an improvement in housing standards and a need to improve insulation—that is the background set by the document which has been issued by the Department of the Environment entitled "Warmth Kept In Keeps Heating Costs Down"—the Government must make some form of adjustment to valuation and rating law.
      It is proposed that there should be a doubling of insulation standards. By proving that there has been an improvement in a house leading to the saving of energy, and thus fuel costs, an assessor could, bring before a valuation appeal committee the argument that the improvement could bring in an increase in rent and, therefore, give rise to an increased valuation. To my knowledge no assessor has attempted to take that course, but that approach is built into the whole system of valuation.
      Houses are valued according to size, the amenities which might be in them, the environment and, to some extent, upon the design and the quality of construction. A post-war house, be it local authority or private, can be classed in a lower level of valuation merely because it was built to a more utilitarian standard and with poorer materials in the post-war years. It is possible to argue that insulation or improvements in housing could lead to increases in valuation. That runs counter to the Government's energy conservation policy.
      Another point that aggravates some people in Scotland is that, because of the system of yearly changes, such improvements as are carried out to houses, almost immediately—within a year—are added to the gross annual value, that is the

      1493
      rateable value, whereas in England, because of a system of Treasury valuers who are overworked and carry out valuations less frequently, five or six years or more may elapse before an improvement finds it way into the valuation of a house.
      The amendment would restrict this provision to domestic properties. With industrial premises, Government consideration should be given to the different types of space heating, so I have left it to them in time to work out their own proposals. When it comes to energy conservation, with district heating, because of the system of pipes, insulation, ducting and fixed apertures and cabling, there is a strong argument for any assessor to say the system should be considered rateable. This might also be at odds with Government policy.
      Although I would not be inclined to press this matter to a Division because it is a new idea which the Government might wish to consider, I hope that they will bear it in mind, because their whole energy conservation policy might be helped by their acceptance of this new principle. It would be undesirable, in a Bill of this sort, which is not attempting to do that, to make that kind of change.
      Mr. Millan: I understand why the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. Wilson) has put down the amendment. The Government are interested in energy conservation and are trying to encourage people to have regard to it in all they do, including what they do with their houses. The trouble is, as he said, that any improvement is liable, under the normal valuation procedure, to lead to increased valuations. Therefore, there seems to be an inconsistency between different arms of Government policy.
      However, that apparent inconsistency applies in other circumstances too. It is, for example, a general part of Government housing policy, as it was with the previous Government, to encourage improvements in houses generally. There are special provisions in legislation for Government and local authority assistance to produce that desirable result. Yet, at the end of the day, in that case also, rateable values can be and often are increased. In that kind of situation, one has to accept that the general encourage-
      1494
      ment of a particular desirable piece of public policy may have for the occupiers of the houses concerned some disabilities as well as advantages.
      I say that not to devalue the particular importance of energy conservation but to make the general point that if we accepted the amendment or something similar we should be acting against a basic principle of valuation law.
      11.0 p.m.
      Mr. Gordon Wilson: I should like to bring to the Minister's attention the fact that a substantial change of valuation law is proposed in the Schedule, insofar as it refers to electric motors and the change made in valuation law some years ago, to take out electric storage heaters which had previously been considered to be rateable, so the valuation law was then breached in favour of that form of heating.
      Mr. Millan: Different considerations are involved on electric motors. That came from the recommendations of the McNairn Committee. We mentioned this briefly during the Committee stage. It does not raise the wider questions which this amendment would raise.
      In the matter of electric storage heaters one was dealing with the rather anomalous position that something which was, from the point of view of the householder analogous to an ordinary heating appliance, was being treated as a fixture. That was giving rise to anomalies, but here we are not dealing with anomalies but with breaching the principles where matters of public money should be the overriding factor. This is much more important.
      I cannot accept the amendment nor can I give hope that an amendment in similar terms would be acceptable in this Bill, but this sort of thing is relevant to the Layfield Committee.
      It is not sufficiently appreciated, outside at least, that although the Layfield Committee will be looking at alternative sources of local authority finance and the rest of the wide issues, it will be concerned very much with valuation and other matters inside the rating system, so it may have something to say to the Government and all of us on these matters.

      1495
      It would be a pity to accept this amendment or a modification which would have similar consequences. It may be that following Layfield, we shall want to make a number of different changes in the context of local authority finance structure in a wider sense.
      I cannot accept this, although I do not devalue the point made, but one would breach a principle here which has wide ranging consequences. The time is not appropriate to do it. We should have to do it in a much wider context.
      Mr. Gordon Wilson: I am prepared to have the amendment negatived.
      Amendment negatived.
      Mr. Gordon Wilson: I beg to move Amendment No. 43, in page 55, line 30, at end insert:
      '20. The rules applicable to ascertainment and proof of value of lands and heritages in appeals taken in revaluation years shall be extended to appeals taken in non-revaluation years on the ground of a material change of circumstances affecting value, and sections 9(7) and 10 shall be construed accordingly'.
      This amendment arises out of experience I had as secretary to a valuation appeal committee during a period of revaluation, contrasted almost immediately after by service in a non-revaluation year when it was apparent to me and to a number of appellants that the rules had changed and rather sadly, against appellants who wished to bring appeals.
      The normal rule for revaluation years is that one start afresh on an appropriate basis on the condition of the premises at the time of revaluation, and therefore there is little to weigh between the evidence produced on each side by the assessor and the appellant. When matters are completely even, there is a slight onus in favour of the assessor. But the rule has many limitations, because in revaluation years it is not always easy for appellants to produce evidence which can satisfy not only the commonsense approach of the tribunal but the directives of the Lands Valuation Appeal Court. Often the committee is well aware that both sides are using it as an instrument for appeal to the higher court.
      There are certain opportunities for a committee during revaluation to take decisions on environmental matters which
      1496
      can result in reductions, albeit small at times, for the benefit of appellants. There are limits, and if a committee oversteps them it can find its decision recalled by the superior court.
      But in a non-revaluation year there are new criteria. The first, which is not unreasonable, is that there should be a material change of circumstances. If a valuation has been settled the previous year, it is necessary for there to have been a change giving grounds for an appeal. Assessors use that provision to bring altered subjects on to the roll. Appellants can also appeal. For example, if a sewage works opens immediately opposite someone's house he may be able to tell the appeal committee that the situation has changed entirely since he appeared the previous year. Many people appear from year to year.
      But there is an inhibiting factor, with which the amendment tries to deal. It is not merely a material change of circumstances that can allow a committee to upset the previous valuation. There must be a material change of circumstances which has an effect on value. In a sense this goes to the bedrock of the valuation system. If it has no effect on value, the material change, whether good or ill, can lead to no change in the valuation of the subject under review.
      There is an interpretation by the courts of this time-honoured phrase which has made it almost impossible for the small appellant to approach the appeal committee with any hope of success. The following quotation from page 16 of the fourth edition of Armour on Valuation for Rating may make the matter relatively clear:
      "The onus is on the party claiming that a material change of circumstances has occurred and this must be discharged by proper evidence. An ex parte statement and the knowledge of some members of the Committee is not sufficient"—
      that is true in a revaluation year as well—
      "nor may the Committee rely on their own local knowledge alone".
      That also applies in a revalution year.
      "The Committee are not entitled to decide whether or not there is a material change of circumstances on argument without hearing evidence."
      Here we come to the rub:
      "The evidence required in most cases will include evidence of the effect on value given by someone qualified to express a view on

      1497
      the matter. Without skilled assistance a justifiable appeal may well fail."
      There are one or two ways in which appellants can skip round that, by relying on the practice of an assessor which may have changed since the last valuation, or on another case which has been decided and has altered the circumstances. Nevertheless, in connection with a house, where what is at stake is perhaps a £5 or £10 a year reduction in gross annual value, and a smaller figure when it comes to ascertainment of rateable value, one must employ a skilled valuer to give an opinion on value.
      That is the difference between a revaluation and a non-revaluation year. Although there are restrictions upon an appellant in the presentation and acceptance of evidence in a revaluation year, he need not produce the skilled valuer who can produce evidence of a reduction in value following a material change.
      The amendment seeks to apply to the situation the same rules on evidence as apply in a revalution year. Hon. Members may think that this is a small matter. However, an appellant who makes an appeal because of something that affects his amenity or the rental value of his house and therefore its valuation and comes within what has been described in Armour on Valuation for Rating as perhaps a justifiable case, may find that because of the technical rules he is unable to succeed before the committee which in turn has to look over its shoulder at the Lands Valuation Appeal Court.
      I suggest that the rules contain a sufficient weight in favour of the assessor through the rule involving proof of material change of circumstances along with the other inhibitions on the committee's ability to take discretionary decisions to allow acceptance of the amendment. I think that it gives greater flexibility in dealing with appeals against domestic valuations. I strongly urge the House to accept the amendment.
      Mr. Millan: The hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. Wilson) has explained the amendment clearly and expertly. I do not disagree with his description of the present system. I accept what he is attempting to do in the amendment and have considerable sympathy with its
      1498
      object, but in a non-revaluation year the burden of proof on the appellant is extremely high. In fact, unless he is able to demonstrate through rental evidence that there has been a material change of circumstances affecting the value of his house, he is unlikely to succeed. Indeed, in many circumstances it is very difficult for an appellant to produce the necessary information.
      I agree that many worthy cases fail because the system does not allow a burden of proof which appellants are reasonably able to discharge. The situation has been criticised by the Scottish Valuation Advisory Committee which takes the view that in many circumstances it is unreasonable to expect an appellant to discharge the burden of proof that is placed upon him.
      I accept that we ought to do something, but it is not a matter which is easily drafted. The amendment, apart from technical difficulties, would go too far. It would mean that, even if the matter concerned were comparatively trivial, the whole question of the valuation could be considered de novo, which might be a burdensome procedure.
      I accept that we ought to make an appeal in a non-revaluation year easier. I do not mean that we want to produce an unfair result, but that, where there is a material change of circumstances, the burden of proof relating to value should somehow or other be lessened compared with what it is now. We are considering this matter, but it presents considerable drafting difficulties. We have a formula in mind but I do not wish to describe it to the House in case it proves ultimately to be defective. If it is acceptable we would hope to move the appropriate amendment in another place. If the hon. Member will therefore withdraw the amendment I promise him that I shall do everything possible to get the basic substance of his amendment into the Bill. If I find that that is not possible I will write to him and let him know. If it is possible I shall write to him when we have tabled the amendment to tell him we have done so.
      I cannot give the hon. Member a guarantee on a matter of this complexity. However if I can meet the basic point behind his amendment I shall do everything possible to do so in another place.
      11.15 p.m.
      Mr. Gordon Wilson: I am grateful to the Minister of State for his acceptance of the spirit of the amendment. I hope that something will appear in the other place which will give a fairer deal to the appellant in this circumstance of a non revaluation year. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      Mr. Millan: I beg to move Amendment No. 44, in page 56, line 2, at end insert:
      '22A. In section 7(4) (apportionment), for the words "the fifteenth day of March" there shall be substituted the words "the date prescribed by order under section 13 of the Act of 1956.'.
      It relates to the fixing of a date for assessors to furnish estimates of rateable values for a revaluation year. Because of the change in the date of the financial year we need to change the date which at present stands at 15th March. Instead of putting in a new date it seems better to provide that the date should be prescribed by order. That is what the amendment does.
      Amendment agreed to.
      Amendments made: No. 45 in page 56, line 39, after 'it)', insert '(a)'.
      No. 46, in page 56, line 43, at end insert:
      '(b) in subsection (3), for the words "Part XII of the said Act of 1947" there shall be substituted the words "Schedule 3 to the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1975";
      (c) in subsection (5), for the words "section 261 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1947" there shall be substituted the words "paragraph 11 of Schedule 3 to the said Act of 1975".'.—[Mr. Millan.]
      Mr. David Steel: I beg to move Amendment No. 47, in page 59, line 37, at end insert:
      '45A. In section 146 (police), in subsection (7), in the Table in the new subsection 21A(2) inserted in the Police (Scotland) Act 1967, the words "South Eastern … Borders and Lothian" shall be omitted'.
      I spoke on this matter on Second Reading and we debated it again in Committee. The only reason I am raising the matter again is that for technical reasons I was unable to test the feeling of the Committee in a Division. I hope that the Government may have given the matter further thought. The amendment seeks to
      1500
      change the wording of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973 and to provide for the Lothians Region and the Borders Region each to have its own police force instead of the proposal by the Government to have a joint police board. It is significant that the amendment has multi-party support.
      Apart from the hon. Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Mackintosh) whose constituency is also affected, the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Mr. Fairgrieve) lives, and has served on local authorities, in my constituency. He is, therefore, familiar with the issues at stake. I took down the words of the Minister when he was replying to an earlier amendment because I thought that they were important. He referred to the Tory Government's Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act and described this as an attempt to dictate to local authorities in a way which they found totally unacceptable.
      The Minister criticised the Amendment on that basis and I trust that he will stick to that principle in considering this amendment and accept, whatever else may be said in defence of the proposal, that this is a case of St. Andrew's House over-ruling the wishes of the elected regional councils.
      Parliament could not have known at the time when this matter was peremptorily examined during the passage of the 1973 Act what was in the mind of the regional councils because they had not then come into existence. There is an obligation on this House to take note of what the local authorities, now they are in existence, think on this subject.
      I will not go back over the whole argument. I will merely quote two parts of the submission of the Borders Regional Council when it pointed out that:
      "the draft scheme, which was sent to the Councils on 3rd June 1974, makes provision for the appointment by each of the authorities of an unspecified number of members who would form a Joint Committee with executive powers to administer the combined police force."
      The council says that if this joint committee were constituted the members would have complete power of decision in implementing the police function. The scheme provides that the joint committee would requisition both constituent authorities for an annual sum to meet the cost

      1501
      of the combined police force. Neither council, therefore, would have any opportunity to vary the requisition or would have any control over the allocation of resources to the joint committee.
      That is a reason why the House should always hesitate in the creation of joint boards. The cost in this case is quite considerable. Since the Committee stage I have had representations from the South of Scotland Chamber of Commerce querying the cost of this proposal. The submission from the Borders Regional Council points out that it has been estimated that the annual revenue expenditure of such a joint committee would be of the order of £10 million. It says that this represents a fairly substantial proportion of the total estimated revenue expenditure of both councils and that if the proposals in the Act of 1973 were implemented in accordance with the scheme drafted by the Scottish Home and Health Department the effect would be that a substantial proportion of the members of the councils who did not happen to be members of the joint committee would have no opportunity of exercising any control over the allocation of resources to the joint committee. Moreover, it is the assessment of the Borders Regional Council that the effect of the Government's proposed joint committee would be to cost the regions about £100,000 more than would be the cost of having separate police forces.
      If it is wondered why it is that a centralised force should be more expensive I am bound to say that since the Committee stage I have received the first evidence of exactly the sort of thing to which I think people in the Border area will rightly object. I understand from one of the social work departments that under the proposed reorganisation complaints against persons under the age of 16, which at present go straight from the local police force to the local children's reporter, would in future go through the central machine in Edinburgh and then back down to the Border authority.
      It is this sort of nonsense against which we ought to guard. I have re-read what the Minister said in Committee when he argued in favour of the joint committee. I see that he laid some stress on the specialised facilities that would be avail-
      1502
      able to a joint police force. I have looked at the specialist services required by the present Berwick, Roxburgh and Selkirk Constabulary. The existing force is smaller than would be the enlarged force under the Borders Region. I could go through each facility. Let me take one or two examples. Dog handlers are not available to the present police force. During the past five years the services of a dog handler have been required on an average of only two occasions a year and on only one occasion in that time did the presence of the handler play a significant part in the police search.
      I could mention fingerprinting, investigation of serious crime, underwater search teams. The services of Glasgow City Police underwater search team were recently obtained for a search of the River Teviot. Such a team is not available in Edinburgh City Police or the Lothians and Peebles Constabulary. It is unjustified for the Government to base their case for a joint police board on the very few and rare occasions when specialist services are required.
      The conclusion of the memorandum I have received from the police is that the experience indicates that there is no reason why the Berwick, Roxburgh and Selkirk Constabulary could not continue to operate as a separate entity, assuming responsibility for the Peebles area from 15th May. Then the point is made that it has been the practice to extend facilities without reservation to neighbouring forces and there is no doubt that such an arrangement would continue in future. I hope that tonight we shall not have the argument about the specialist services that we had in Committee.
      This comes down to the basic question whether the Government will be obstinate and stick by the view that St. Andrew's House knows best. It is an attitude which they should rid themselves of. I believe that, if they maintain their attitude, they will succeed only in getting the reorganisation of local government in those areas off to a poor start. One of the reasons for going through the trauma of reorganisation of local government was, wherever possible, to establish a meaningful democratic content of local government and to abolish joint boards of this kind.
      Mr. John P. Mackintosh: I support the amendment which stands in my name and that of the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. Steel). I support it on the same grounds as those already expressed but with a slightly different emphasis.
      I, who represent the area, was never happy about the idea that there should be a separate Borders Region. Because it was such a small region, it seemed to me that it would have great difficulty in maintaining certain services on its own. I was pleased that the Wheatley Commission did not recommend a separate region. I thought that it would have to borrow or cannibalise on services from the south-eastern or Lothians Region. Such a proceeding is always very unsatisfactory.
      Then the Conservative Government that followed inserted a Borders Region, which was an oddity, because its population was lower and its resources were lower than those of the average district in Scotland. The inevitable result of this was that the region was combined with the Lothians Region for police, for fire, for child health, and for certain aspects of further education.
      I regard all joint boards as fundamentally unsatisfactory, for all the reasons that my hon. Friend the Minister of State and others have advanced on so many occasions. In this case, as we set up a Borders Region, we should do everything possible to give it the services for the Region under its own control. However, it transpires that the nearby large region—the Edinburgh Lothians Region—does not want the Borders police force to join it in a joint association. The Borders region does not want to share a police force. The two police forces themselves do not wish to be jointed.
      I therefore echo what the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles said. It makes a very curious case for the Government, who have accepted the general principle, and who accepted it in opposition, of a separate Borders Region, now to say that they know better than both regions and better than both police forces what is in their interests.
      If the spirit of the Local Government Bill had any meaning, it was that when local authorities, without any resistance
      1504
      or objection from anybody, ask for certain things to be done, if possible this should be acceded to. Here we have both regions, both police forces and public opinion in both areas behind it. So, as the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles said, there has to be an overpowering reason for insisting on maintaining something against all this.
      The only reason I have been able to think of is that of special equipment, which I do not think helps in this situation, for the reasons adduced by the hon. Gentleman. A much deeper reason, though it is not an argument on the merits, is that there is a reluctance to reopen anything which was settled in the 1973 Act in case wider issues such as the size of the Strathclyde Region and all the rest have to arise at the same time.
      I know that this is a small point, but as it is so generally desired I hope that the Government will consider it. I cannot see any other meaning to local autonomy than the acceptance of such a case. There is also a very deep political point locally. If the Borders, being a small region, is represented on the joint committee in proportion to its population it will have only one or two members. On the other hand, if it is given a proportionately larger representation so that it has meaningful control, it means that its members will upset the political balance on the committee.
      The situation is acceptable neither to the Borders Region, which would not have adequate control of its police force in any sense, nor to the Lothians Region, which would find the party political balance on the joint board different from that in its region. This causes political, financial and administrative problems, and it is contrary to the desires of the people in the area. It is the sort of thing on which the Minister might give way, and I hope that he will do so tonight.
      11.30 p.m.
      Mr. Robin F. Cook: I wish to take up a few moments of the time of the House to support what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Mackintosh) and the hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. Steel). I do not propose to query the

      1505
      wisdom of the decision taken by the previous Conservative administration, but I find it a little bizarre that my Front Bench feels obliged to defend the wisdom of that decision.
      We have adequate new matter to justify looking at the decision again, in that we have the opinion of two regional councils which have been elected since that decision was taken. Both of them have come to the clear opinion that they do not wish the police forces to be amalgamated. Moreover, the decisions were taken without any significant dissentions in either of those regional councils.
      There was a debate a fortnight ago on devolution, when the House had the opportunity to hear some wonderful speeches on the powers that we might devolve, whether we give away powers of control over industry, trade and employment, whether we give away the right to raise taxation, and whether we give away the right over control of oil extraction rates. It seems to me to be silly that we debate giving away all these powers but when it comes to a decision about the amalgamation of the police forces of the Lothians Region and the Borders Region we say that that must remain firmly with Parliament, and not only that, but we shall ignore the wishes of the two local councils affected.
      I am not convinced by the argument that the Borders Region is not viable in terms of its police force. If we look at the South-West Region which has been formed, we see that it will have its own police force even though it has only a marginally greater population, a marginally greater police force and a marginally greater land mass. It is difficult to say that the difference is such that the Borders Region is not viable for a police force, and the South-West Region is.
      I assure the Minister that the Lothians Regional Council is willing to make available the specialist services which the Borders Region may need from time to time, and if it is the case that it requires two dog handlers twice a year, we call make these available at a cost of less than £100,000 per annum.
      The real point which concerns the regional council in the area which I represent is the problem of the joint committee, which was touched on by my hon.
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      Friend. The Borders Region has less than one-tenth of the population in the affected area. It would be intolerable if it had less than one-tenth of the members on the joint committee. We accept that, and the Lothians Regional Council accepts it, but it has the unfortunate effect that if it is represented as is proposed by four out of 18 seats on the joint committee it will upset the political balance.
      That leaves the Lothians Regional Council with two alternatives. Either the ruling group on the council forgoes its majority on the joint committee and becomes a minority group—and the ruling group has put considerable weight and time into developing a cohesive and coherent corporate strategy in its approach to the administration and financing of the region and will be unable to take into account as part of the corporate strategy the sizeable budget of £10 million which is likely to be spent every year by the joint committee—or, alternatively, it takes itself a quite disproportionate share of the 14 seats which the council has on the joint committee. The latter is precisely what it is proposing to do, but this will leave an inequitably small amount of seats for the minority group on the Lothians Regional Council.
      I am not particularly concerned about taking sides as to which of the alternatives the council should have chosen. I am concerned with the fact that it is the creation of the joint committee which forces the ruling group on the Lothians Regional Council to take that invidious decision and make that invidious choice.
      Moreover, the point that worries the council, and what concerns me, is that the criticisms of scale that are made about the Borders Region police force can extend to many of its other functions. My hon. Friend said that when this was first discussed many hon. Members in this House, people outside, the local authority and myself were critical about whether the Borders Region could maintain a number of other functions which it is proposed to have.
      One might think of further education. Will it be so long before people start to say that the Borders Region is too small to maintain a viable further education scheme, or ask whether we should not amalgamate with the Lothians Region and have a joint committee? One can

      1507
      see the problem of the spawning of joint committees beginning to appear all over the range of functions between the two regional councils. That was precisely the problem we hoped to get away from by local government reform and which the Lothians Regional Council is worried about, because if this precedent is created the ruling group of that council might be faced on other occasions with further joint committees being created and losing its majority position in sectors much more politically sensitive than this one.
      I therefore urge my hon. Friend the Minister to treat this matter with even more sympathy than he was able to muster in Committee and not necessarily be inhibited by the actions of the previous Government.
      Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: The hon. Member for Glasgow, Provan (Mr. Brown) and the Minister of State saw representatives from the Lothians Regional Council and the Borders Regional Council on 14th November, when they made representations against the amalgamation of these police forces. The Minister made it clear that the amalgamation was going ahead, and in a letter dated 27th November the Chairman of the Lothians Regional Council wrote that no further action would be taken by his council for the provision of separate forces. His council was still convinced, however, that it would have been better to have separate forces.
      However, the matter does not rest there. On 25th February it was announced at the Lothians Regional Council meeting that the Labour Party would take 10 of the 14 seats from the Lothians Regional Council on the new joint police committee. This in no way reflects the composition of the Lothians Regional Council and it is clearly an abuse of majority powers.
      As the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central (Mr. Cook) says, there may be reasons for this. None the less it is still an abuse of majority power, which would not be permitted in the House of Commons, where Standing Committees always rightly reflect the balance of the parties. Strong views have been expressed on the subject, and I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say about it.
      Mr. Millan: This matter was debated in Committee. I make no complaint, of course, that it is being raised again tonight. There is, however, a history to it, and I think I am entitled to say that there is this history and that in my view we are now far too far along the road, quite apart from any other consideration, for any change to be made at this time.
      On the merits of the amalgamation, however, the matter of the size of police forces goes as far back as the Royal Commission in the 1960s, and it goes back in more recent years to our debates on the Local Government (Scotland) Bill of 1973.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Mackintosh) makes the fair point that if one has a Borders Region which in terms of population, resources and the rest is much smaller than was considered by the Wheatley Commission to be a viable region in the context of local government reform in Scotland generally, inevitably a certain number of compromises are involved with regard to particular services. That is certainly true concerning the police.
      Indeed, the provision applying amalgamation in the case of Lothians and the Borders which appears in the 1973 Act was specifically included therein to make it explicit that the powers of amalgamation would be applied in this case. It was, therefore, not a general power of amalgamation that was being provided for but an amalgamation to meet particular circumstances such as those obtaining in the Lothians and Borders area taking account of the size of the regions and of the prospective police forces and the rest.
      I make the point that these were deliberate decisions taken in the 1973 Act. This is not something which happened by inadvertence. It was deliberately done.
      Mr. David Steel: The Minister will, of course, accept the point made by myself and others that those decisions were taken before we had the benefit of the views of either regional council.
      Mr. Millan: I was just coming to that. My next sentence was that the fact that the decisions had been taken in 1973 does not mean that one should stick rigidly

      1509
      to them if new circumstances and considerations have arisen since then.
      My hon. Friends and the hon. Gentleman would have been entitled to be critical of the present Government if they had simply accepted the previous Government's decision, and the decision of the House, in 1973 and had not reconsidered the matter. But that is not the position, because my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State, who at that time was dealing with police matters, reconsidered this matter, together with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, and the meeting of November 1974 took place. A decision was taken by my right hon. Friend that the amalgamation should go ahead and the arrangements should be made accordingly.
      The decision was taken for reasons which have been well explained and I need not go over them, particularly as there will be an opportunity soon to deal with the matter again because the draft scheme is before the House and can be debated.
      Mr. David Steel: Surely the hon. Gentleman will accept that it is reasonable that we should discuss this matter now rather than have yet another debate on a Prayer. May I say as one who has tabled a Prayer that if we have a reasonable debate now there will be no need for a second one.
      Mr. Millan: It depends how the hon. Gentleman defines "a reasonable debate". Since I do not intend to recommend acceptance of the amendment, I have little doubt that the hon. Gentleman will wish to return to the matter on a Prayer. Then some of these matters will be dealt with in considerably greater detail than is appropriate now.
      The matter was reconsidered by the Government and they took the decision which was conveyed to the authorities concerned in November. My information is that since then the authorities have accepted—I do not pretend that they are happy with the decision—that the amalgamation should go ahead, and they are making arrangements accordingly.
      There are practical considerations, including uncertainty and the morale of the police forces concerned. The point was made that the police in the areas concerned were still against the amalga-
      1510
      mation. That is not my information. In Committee I made the point that the Scottish Police Federation had expressed considerable disquiet at the idea that the amalgamation should not go ahead because of the uncertainty it was causing and the effect on police morale in the respective areas.
      In Committee the hon. Gentleman slightly discounted what I said about the federation as not representing the committed police opinion. I have it in writing from the federation in a paper which it put to the Police Advisory Board for Scotland in November after the decision had been confirmed. It says that any move to stop the amalgamation
      "would, in our opinion, have disastrous effects on our members, especially at this late stage."
      It is now three months later, and I have no information to suggest other than that the federation would be extremely upset and worried if the amalgamation should not go ahead.
      Mr. Mackintosh: It is all very well for my hon. Friend to quote the federation, but we represent constituencies and we see our chief constables and talk to the police forces. It is not fair to hold on and wait and then say that it would cause uncertainty if the Government went back on a silly decision. The way to end the uncertainty is to accept the amendment.
      11.45 p.m.
      Mr. Millan: I do not accept that at all. The fact is that it was the hon Gentlemen supporting the amendment, including specifically my hon. Friend the Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Mackintosh), who made the specific point that the police were against the amalgamation. I am simply saying that this is not the view of the Scottish Police Federation, which in this matter is representing the views of its branches in Edinburgh, The Lothians and Peebles, and the Berwick, Roxburgh and Selkirk constabularies. This is in writing in front of me at present. This is a question whether it is the factual situation. I am not pretending that I have the more intimate contact with the local areas that those hon. Members who have spoken tonight and who represent them undoubtedly have. I am not casting doubt on that. But as the view of the police has been brought in, that is not

      1511
      my own information. What is more, I have the information confirmed in writing specifically by the Scottish Police Federation on the basis of the views referred to it by the local constabularies.
      This matter has been considered on numerous occasions. At this late stage I do not see that there is any case for changing the decision that has been made. The order is now laid before Parliament in draft and, as I said earlier, it is open to debate in the House. So far as hon. Members wish to continue the debate, they will be able to do so on the order. But I see no reason to make any change in the Bill now. Therefore, I recommend that the House does not accept the amendment.
      Mr. David Steel: I think that I can say on behalf of all those who have spoken tonight that the Minister's reply was extremely disappointing. He is right that the local authorities have accepted the decision—in the sense that they are not prepared to defy the law. If they see Parliament and the Government determined to force them into amalgamation,
      they have no alternative but to accept it. But it is only in that technical sense that they have accepted the decision.
      The Minister quoted from a letter from the Scottish Police Federation. I can refer to a letter dated 13th November which gives actual figures from a referendum carried out—I thought that the Government were rather in favour of referenda—among the members of The Border Police Force. Admittedly, there was no clear, decisive, overwhelming majority, but by a majority of 92 to 76 the police force voted in November—never mind the Scottish Police Federation; this was the view of the police on the ground—to retain separate identities.
      The Minister talks about ending uncertainty but in the next breath invites us to pray against the order and have a further debate. This is continuing to add uncertainty. I am sorry that the Government are remaining obstinate. I think that the House ought to divide in support of the amendment.
      Question put, That the amendment be made:—
      The House divided: Ayes 12, Noes 96.

      Division No. 100.]

      AYES

      [11.47 p.m.

      Beith, A. J.

      Steel, David (Roxburgh)

      Welsh, Andrew

      Hooson, Emlyn

      Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)

      Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)

      Mackintosh, John P.

      Thompson, George

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      Molyneaux, James

      Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)

      Mr. Clement Freud and

      Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

      Watt, Hamish

      Mr. Geraint Howells.

      NOES

      Allaun, Frank

      Flannery, Martin

      Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

      Ashton, Joe

      Ford, Ben

      Meacher, Michael

      Atkinson, Norman

      Forrester, John

      Mendelson, John

      Bates, Alf

      Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin)

      Millan, Bruce

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      Golding, John

      Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen)

      Boardman, H.

      Gould, Bryan

      Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

      Booth, Albert

      Gourlay, Harry

      Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King

      Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

      Grocott, Bruce

      Noble, Mike

      Buchanan, Richard

      Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

      Parry, Robert

      Canavan, Dennis

      Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

      Price, William (Rugby)

      Cartwright, John

      Hoyle, Doug (Nelson)

      Radice, Giles

      Clemitson, Ivor

      Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N)

      Robertson, John (Paisley)

      Cocks, Michael (Bristol S)

      Hunter, Adam

      Roderick, Caerwyn

      Coleman, Donald

      Kerr, Russell

      Rodgers, George (Chorley)

      Corbett, Robin

      Kinnock, Neil

      Rooker, J. W.

      Cox, Thomas (Tooting)

      Lambie, David

      Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilm'nock)

      Craigen, J. M. (Maryhill)

      Lamond, James

      Selby, Harry

      Cryer, Bob

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Sillars, James

      Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh)

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Skinner, Dennis

      Dalyell, Tam

      Loyden, Eddie

      Small, William

      Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)

      Snape, Peter

      Dempsey, James

      McCartney, Hugh

      Spearing, Nigel

      Doig, Peter

      McElhone, Frank

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Dormand, J. D.

      McGuire, Michael (Ince)

      Stallard, A. W.

      Douglas-Mann, Bruce

      Mackenzie, Gregor

      Stoddart, David

      Dunn, James A.

      Maclennan, Robert

      Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

      Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun)

      McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)

      Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)

      Evans, John (Newton)

      McNamara, Kevin

      Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)

      Ewing, Harry (Stirling)

      Madden, Max

      Walker, Terry (Kingswood)

      Fernyhough, Rt Hon E.

      Magee, Bryan

      Wellbeloved, James

      White, Frank R. (Bury)

      Wise, Mrs Audrey

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      White, James (Pollok)

      Woof, Robert

      Miss Margaret Jackson and

      Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

      Young, David (Bolton E)

      Mr. Laurie Pavitt.

      Question accordingly negatived.
      Motion made, and Question, That the Bill be now read the Third time, put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 56 (Third Reading), and agreed to.
      Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

      ADJOURNMENT
      Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. James Hamilton.]

  ZIP FASTENERS
  11.57 p.m.
  Mr. J. W. Rooker: In raising the problems of the British zip fastener industry, I wish to declare an interest, but it is an interest affecting my own constituency and employment.
  The industry is a relatively small one, employing about 4,500, with a turnover of about £15 million a year. The main employment in the United Kingdom is in two or three large companies centred on Birmingham, Kent, Devon and Cumberland, and there are branch factories of a company in South Wales.
  I first raised the problems of the zip fastener industry in this House in May 1974, when I warned that, due to Japanese penetration of the British market, there was a possibility of severe job losses. At that time due to the ignorance of many hon. Members who thought that it was funny, I was laughed down at Question Time. Since that time, more than 200 jobs in Birmingham and about 100 in South Wales have been lost, and one small company has gone out of business.
  During a routine industrial visit which I paid to Lightning Fasteners, in Witton, Birmingham, about a year ago, the operations of a Japanese company called YKK were explained to me, including its trading methods and the possible effect on British employment levels.
  After raising the matter in the House, I received letters from two quite small companies—not members of the Zip Fastener Manufacturers Association—
  1514
  confirming what I had been told at Lightning Fasteners. One company in Manchester—Slick Fasteners—told me that the Japanese firm was selling a loss leader—one product—so cheap in 1974 that it was at pre-1939 prices. Subsequently, the product line had been discontinued by British manufacturers unable to compete.
  The other company which wrote to me—a London company, Ace Slide—said that 14-day all-expense paid holidays in Japan were frequently available to buyers for United Kingdom concerns. It also complained about the dumping of products in the United Kingdom at unrealistically low prices.
  As the Minister will remember, I raised this matter with the Department and was told that YKK had a relatively small share of the United Kingdom market. Five years ago its share was about zero. In 1974 it varied between 23 per cent. and 28 per cent.—depending on the figures that one uses. Nevertheless, we are talking about a share of £3 million out of a total of £15 million. That is no small share. What is more important is that if the existing growth rate continues there will be no British firms in this product line in four or five years and consequently no jobs for British workers.
  In the past five years British companies have got rid of 1,000 employees. That has been the price of YKK's increased share of the market. Its penetration from zero to about 25 per cent. has cost British workers about 1,000 jobs. I understand that meetings were held last summer by the Department with the United Kingdom manufacturers' association and YKK. I believe that a promise was extracted from YKK that the United Kingdom content of its product would be increased in the next four years. YKK has a small company in Cheshire, but basically the real threat comes from finished exports from Japan into Britain.
  It has been made clear to me by the managements and by the workers on the visits that I have paid to the companies in Birmingham, and in the discussions that I have had with other companies, that the complaint is not that foreign companies import or have plants in this

  1515
  country. They maintain that imports of finished or part-finished goods should conform to what they believe are reasonable trading practices which conform with international trading treaties designed precisely to prevent dumping so as to capture the market.
  The rate of penetration of the United Kingdom market continued during 1974, and in late November and early December of last year we had a redundancy announcement in Birmingham. It was emphasised to me by the company and by the shop stewards that they had warned that there would be redundancies six months earlier and that the Government had done nothing about it. Along with other hon. Members I have made representations to Ministers. It is significant that only today, in discussing the problems with a couple of manufacturers, it came to my attention for the first time that Marks & Spencer Ltd. has an arrangement that when it buys zips from YKK from Japan the zips are produced without the YKK initials appearing on the zip. That was news to me. I shall now look at Marks & Spencer products in a detailed fashion. It is significant that Marks & Spencer does not wish it to be known that it is using Japanese zips on some of its items.
  I understand that the brass zips that Remploy use for leather brief cases—that is, incidentally, a Government-sponsored organisation—are being purchased in Japan and flown into this country. They are not made at the YKK plant in this country but in Japan. I am told that there has not been an order from a British company for brass zips—that is an important part of the market—for the past 12 months.
  I understand that within the past month the Department has received a fairly detailed report from the Zip Fastener Manufacturers Association in an attempt to back up its claim that YKK is dumping and using illegal methods to sell its products in the United Kingdom. From that point of view this Adjournment debate could not have come at a better time for the industry or for my constituents, particularly for those who lost their jobs and for others who can see that if nothing changes they will be losing their jobs later this year.
  1516
  On the basis of YKK's avowed and public intention to capture 100 per cent. of the United Kingdom market—which must put all our firms out of business and our workers out of jobs—I must put some questions to my hon. Friend. I understand that I cannot have detailed answers this evening.
  First, will my hon. Friend ensure that this Department and, possibly, the Department of Trade, look again at YKK's assurance that its plant at Runcorn was to be used for export, thereby implying that it would help the United Kingdom balance of payments? I understand that it gave the same assurance to the Dutch and French Governments, and it cannot use the same excuse in every European country. Will he also find out what evidence the Portuguese, Spanish and Italian Governments had for putting import controls on this company in the last 12 months? They have found evidence that it has affected their workers and markets and they have acted.
  The Canadian experience is most important. The Canadian Government had the initiative to send someone to Japan to obtain local price lists, which are important, technically and legally, in proving a case about dumping. They were satisfied that there was a case and they took action to protect their companies. Since then, however, printed price lists have been withdrawn in Japan, and negotiations take place on the backs of envelopes or cigarette packets, so it is no longer possible to get local price lists which indicate the real costs in terms of production for the home market. This is a dubious practice; Her Majesty's Government should ask the company for its Japanese price lists. We are not interested in the discounts, but lack of these price lists should be taken as evidence that the company is up to no good in this country.
  I was surprised by a survey, taken by our manufacturers, of total wage costs—including holiday pay, absenteeism and social security benefits—in the textile industries in Japan and this country. This showed that ours were 79p an hour, and the Japanese costs amounted to 81p an hour. So their labour costs are higher, yet they can still sell at ridicuously low prices.

  1517
  Also, various Japanese companies obtain loans from the Government, and there are rules requiring YKK employees to deposit 10 per cent. of their earnings and 50 per cent. of their bonuses to assist with company investment. I take that fact from the YKK annual report for 1973.
  This company controls 90 per cent. of its home market. It is a major world company, having ruined even the American companies to grab its share of the market. Two-thirds of its world sales are made in Japan, with all the benefits of long runs and low costs, with an output 20 times that of the largest United Kingdom firm, which has its headquarters in Birmingham.
  I am proud of the fact that the first zip fastener in Europe was made in Birmingham, in 1919. It is an industry and a product that we should be upset to see leave the city of a thousand trades. We have lost too many jobs in manufacturing industry in the last few years and we do not want to lose this one. My visits to the company at Witton have been brief but detailed, and with my background as a former engineering toolmaker, I did not think that it lacked much in techniques. It is part of Imperial Metal Industries, which is 63 per cent. owned by ICI—probably the largest company in the country—so it does not appear to face the lack of investment which is a problem for the rest of British industry.
  I do not know how many visits the Minister has made to the Midlands or Birmingham since his appointment, but I hope that if he has a visit in the near future, he will find it in his brief to accept an invitation to visit the headquarters and look at this factory. I think he would find it useful.
  We are having a short debate and I have more support tonight than I have had for either of my previous two Adjournments debates—in the persons of my hon. Friends the Member for Erith and Crayford (Mr. Wellbeloved) and Birmingham, Erdington (Mr. Silverman). They may wish to intervene, but I would make a last point which is important for more than 20 Members whose constituencies include zip fastener companies, or whose constituents work in the industry.
  1518
  Last July a radio programme, "The Japanese Way," was broadcast on BBC 1 and BBC 2. It was a 45-minute documentary, which showed the Runcorn, Cheshire plant of YKK, examined the operation and discussed the way in which the plant was worked. There was some discussion and criticism afterwards.
  I have not seen the programme—nor did many other hon. Members associated with the zip fastener industry—and I am therefore grateful that the BBC is to show it on Wednesday morning for many right hon. and hon. Members, including you, Mr. Deputy Speaker and hon. Members from the Labour, Conservative and Liberal Parties, so that we can see what the opposition is up to.
  With this Adjournment debate, I hope that the Government and the Departments of Trade and Industry will feel under some pressure to come up with some answers, because, if not, we shall continue to pursue this. I hope that the Minister will give some of the assurances for which I have asked. I hope he will make it clear that the Government fully understand the seriousness of the case, that jobs are jeopardised and have been lost, and that there will come a time when the people in the factories will say "Thus far and no further".
  12.12 a.m.
  Mr. Julius Silverman: I intervene only briefly to welcome what my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker) has said. He covered most of the ground. Constituents of mine, employed in IMI in Birmingham, have written me numbers of letters about the Japanese intervention in this industry, and they are obviously much concerned about this and about Government inaction in this matter.
  There have been a number of redundancies—just over 100 at IMI at present. I do not think the company or the workers are concerned about these redundancies in themselves, because most of these people have been absorbed elsewhere in the company. They are concerned about the possibility of the destruction and disappearance of the zip fastener manufacturing industry from this country, and the loss of jobs of all the people concerned in this industry, by what they

  1519
  regard as completely unfair Japanese competition.
  I have read the document to which my hon. Friend the Member for Perry Barr referred. I do not know whether it produces a case which could go before an international court on dumping, but when an ordinary person reads the details, some of which have been set out by my hon. Friend the Member for Perry Barr, it is apparent to him that there is not the slightest doubt that YKK is indulging in unfair practices at home and abroad—at home, because, having a monopoly, it takes measures to ensure that its distributors do not distribute slide fasteners made outside Japan. That is an unfair practice at home. Abroad, there are all the practices set out in the document—dumping and selling below the home market price.
  There is the question of Runcorn. The company is obviously concerned about the factory there. Nobody could have any objection to a slide manufacturing company being set up in Runcorn and receiving Government aid—as it would in that area—if it were genuinely intending to produce British goods with British labour, even though the company was foreign-owned. But Runcorn is simply the Trojan horse to introduce Japanese imports. A great deal of what is being sold by Runcorn consists simply of articles manufactured in Japan, or mainly manufactured there and titivated a little in Runcorn. It is another method of achieving the Japanese objective of 100 per cent. of the market in this country.
  The livelihoods of many people are concerned, not only at the IMI plant but throughout the country. I hope that my hon. Friend will be able to give us assurances that the Government are taking action. It is no good telling us that IMI must be competitive. If competition were fair, it would have nothing to complain about, but it is not fair. It is aimed, by unfair methods, at destroying an entire industry in this country.
  12.17 a.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Industry (Mr. Michael Meacher): I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker) for having drawn attention to the problems of this small industry, and for having
  1520
  done so in such a fully documented and wholly constructive manner. I fully appreciate the anxieties about unemployment expressed by both him and by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Mr. Silverman). I shall do my best to answer their questions in the 10 minutes left to me.
  Although many of the firms in it are relatively small, the zip fastener industry is dominated by three strong international groups which together probably account for more than 80 per cent. of the home market. One of these is the Japanese company YKK at Runcorn, to which I shall refer later.
  During the last two years we have had several discussions and exchanges with the Zip Fastener Manufacturers Association about the industry's problems. In the course of these we advised it of the sort of evidence which would be needed to enable us to consider whether there were grounds, first, for securing restraints on imports, and secondly for initiating anti-dumping measures. In the event, the association has pursued its application for anti-dumping measures jointly with other European zip fastener manufacturers through the EEC Commission, and I shall refer to this later.
  In support of its case for import restraints the association submitted to us a detailed report, which we received on 22nd January, on the effects of imports of Japanese zip fasteners and parts on the home industry. We are carefully considering the report, in consultation with the Department of Trade, but we have not had time to reach a conclusion. We are proceeding as quickly as possible. In the meantime, I cannot comment on the facts the report presents or the conclusions it reaches.
  Japanese direct investment in Britain is a fairly recent phenomenon. During the last two years guidelines have been developed with the object of ensuring that new projects are to the mutual advantage both of the companies concerned and the United Kingdom economy. The most favourable terms for the United Kingdom are sought in such matters as employment in the assisted areas; the highest practicable degree of United Kingdom-manufactured content; a high proportion of exports, and the reduction of imports.

  1521
  These policies had not been developed at the time YKK decided to establish itself in this country and consequently we have no formal agreement with it, such as we would hope to conclude in any future cases. However, in discussions which took place last year, YKK assured us that over the next four or five years it planned to move towards a substantially British operation, with only speciality lines being imported. By 1978 it would be producing about 80 per cent. of the components required for YKK sales here, thus going a substantial way to eliminate its imports of both manufactured and partially-finished zip fasteners from Japan. Furthermore, employment at its Runcorn factory was expected to double over the current four-year period if expansion materialised as planned. The company has assured us that products manufactured at Runcorn already represent a substantial proportion of its sales, that it is contributing to exports, and that it hopes to improve its performance in this sphere.
  My hon. Friend put an explicit question to me on this matter. I have no reason to doubt the assurance that we have been given, on the evidence that we have, but we shall continue to have meetings with the company from time to time to follow its progress in this and other areas.
  My hon. Friend raised the issue of dumping. When the EEC Commission considered the complaint by European manufacturers of the dumping of Japanese slide fasteners, it announced last year, after a thorough investigation, that it did not consider that any protective measures were then justified. The Zip Fastener Manufacturers Association has told us that, together with other European manufacturers, it is considering making a further approach to the Commission on the need for anti-dumping measures.
  My hon. Friend asked what action the British Government had taken on dumping. That was a fair question. Because several member States' industries in the EEC are involved, in the first instance anti-dumping action is a matter for the Commission. It is for the British Zip Fastener Manufacturers Association to consider whether it should formally seek the reactivation of the earlier application if it has any fresh evidence of dumping,
  1522
  subsequent to the Commission's conclusions of June last year. I stress that in the first instance it is a matter for the association to seek an answer to that question from the EEC Commission. That is what is provided in the regulations made since our entry into the EEC.
  The consideration of requests by home industries for protection against imports raises complex issues. I shall try to deal with those issues briefly.
  First, there can be no question of discriminatory restrictions on Japan. These would not only be in breach of our international obligations under the GATT and the Anglo-Japanese Commercial Treaty they would invite retaliation against our rapidly growing exports to Japan.
  Mr. Rooker: I realise that time is short, but I should like to put one point to my hon. Friend. The inference is that we are exporting zip fasteners to Japan. I have been through all our trade figures. We may be exporting other goods to Japan, but no zip fasteners have gone from this country to Japan in the last few years, as is shown by Parliamentary Answers to Questions.
  Mr. Meacher: The implication in what I said was not that we were exporting zip fasteners to Japan. I was saying that discriminatory—I emphasise "discriminatory"—restrictions on imports from Japan are not possible, for the reasons that I have given. I was about to go on to say that non-discriminatory restrictions are permissible under Article XIX of the GATT as a purely temporary measure, where imports are causing or threatening serious injury to domestic producers. However, other contracting parties with substantial export interests in the product—in this instance, Japan—would have to be consulted, and could claim compensation by way of tariff concessions on other products or, failing that, could take retaliatory action against United Kingdom exports. The United Kingdom has never used these provisions, and other countries have used them only rarely. It is only fair to admit that.
  In this context my hon. Friend also asked what evidence the Portuguese, the Italians and the Spanish used to impose import controls on Japanese zip fasteners. I assure him that inquiries that we

  1523
  have undertaken have revealed no evidence of any quantitative restrictions by those Governments on Japanese zip fastener imports. If my hon. Friend has any evidence to the contrary, I suggest that he lets me have full details, and we shall then investigate the matter.
  Another possibility would be for the Japanese Government voluntarily to restrain exports of zip fasteners in the same way as they control exports of ball-bearings and television sets to this country. However, such restrictions are the result of unilateral action taken by the Japanese Government, who normally introduce such controls only after they are fully satisfied that there is a real danger that unrestricted Japanese exports would cause serious disruption to the foreign industry. Another possibility would be voluntary restraint by YKK. This is already happening in the case of that company's imports into Italy.
  That is the background against which we shall be urgently considering the industry's representations. It is relevant to point out that out zip fastener industry is a successful exporter. The exports may not go to Japan, but they go elsewhere in considerable quantities. Last year the industry's sales of fasteners and
  1524
  parts overseas amounted to £3·9 million, which was only fractionally less than our imports of £4·1 million.
  I conclude by turning to the rest of the domestic zip fastener industry. My hon. Friend said that it is not under-invested or technologically backward, and I accept that. I shall seek to visit the factory he referred to when I am in the area and when a visit is convenient. Nevertheless, I hope that management and workers in the industry will seriously apply themselves to ensuring that there is more and better investment, the injection of the most modern plant and machinery, and the adoption of the most advance manufacturing techniques. All these factors are prerequisites to meeting the kind of import competition we face from wherever it may come. I end with the assurance that if the industry feels that the Government can help it to achieve even higher levels of efficiency—
  The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock on Wednesday evening and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at twenty-seven minutes past Twelve o'clock.

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  Welsh Development Agency
  Roads (Carmarthenshire)
  Roads (Carmarthenshire)
  EEC Education Committee
  EEC Education Committee
  Ceredigion (Residential Rehabilitation Centre)
  Ceredigion (Residential Rehabilitation Centre)
  River Rheidol (Bridge)
  River Rheidol (Bridge)
  Abattoirs
  Abattoirs

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock: The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Southwell.

LORD PLURENDEN
Sir Rudy Sternberg, Knight, having been created Baron Plurenden, of Plurenden Manor in the County of Kent, for life—Was, in his robes, introduced between the Lord Shepherd and the Lord Hoy, and made the solemn Affirmation.
The Lord Brassey of Apethorpe—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

STUDENT RESIDENTIAL ACCOMMODATION
2.47 p.m.
Lord BALERNO: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
Question was as follows:
ask Her Majesty's Government what provision they are making for the adequate and reasonable residential accommodation of students at universities and colleges next October.
The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of EDUCATION and SCIENCE (Lord Crowther-Hunt): My Lords, the residential places already provided are approximately as follows: Universities in Great Britain, 106,000; colleges of education in England and Wales, 42,000; further education establishments in England and Wales, 16,000. In the universities, a further 7,500 residential places are now being built, and at least 5,000 of these should be ready by October 1975. In polytechnics about 2,300 further residential places are being built, and about 800 of these should be ready by next October.
Lord BALERNO: My Lords, in thanking the Minister for that reply and
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being glad that something is being done, may I ask him whether he is aware of the full magnitude of this problem? Is he aware, to take one example, that of the 11,000 students at the University of Edinburgh fewer than half are in university accommodation or are living with their parents; and the other half have to find their accommodation at the beginning of each term? Is he also aware of the very great increase in the reluctance of owners of property to rent their property to students? Is he further aware that this accommodation is being charged for at greatly increased rent?
Lord CROWTHER-HUNT: My Lords, I am aware of the full magnitude of the problem, although, to put it in its proper perspective, so far as the universities as a whole in Great Britain are concerned, there is accommodation in halls of residence and colleges for 45 per cent. of the student population. So far as the particular consequences of the 1974 Rent Act are concerned, which was behind the second point made by the noble Lord, the Rent Act did not create the housing problem. So far as the students are concerned much of this difficulty has to do with the changing pattern of student demand; but it is true that a U.G.C. survey has shown that many universities are reporting that the Rent Act has had an adverse affect on the availability of privately-rented accommodation. In order to safeguard the possible use of this accommodation for students in the immediate future, the Government are considering a system of registration for student lettings.
Baroness YOUNG: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that answer about considering registration for student lettings, can he give us some indication of the timetable and whether this registration will be introduced before the next academic year? Furthermore, is the Minister aware that Birmingham University has just issued a news sheet advising married students to leave their families behind before coming to Birmingham University? Does the noble Lord think that this is a desirable thing to do?
Lord CROWTHER-HUNT: My Lords, so far as the timetable is concerned, it is hoped that whatever we can do in this area will be ready for the next academic year. Consultations are under

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way on this problem. So far as the advice from the University of Birmingham is concerned, I was not aware of it and I am not at all sure that that is the desirable thing to do.
Lord BLYTON: My Lords, while we appreciate the problem referred to in the Question, can the Minister assure us that priorities will not be given to this problem to the detriment of those who want houses to rent in working-class areas, where building has been reduced for the last four years and the need for housing is now tremendous?
Lord CROWTHER-HUNT: My Lords, the Government are aware of this problem. It is a question of getting priorities right in this area. That is why there is not, perhaps, on the student accommodation front, the progress that ideally might have been possible. This need has to be weighed against other priorities.
Lord NUGENT of GUILDFORD: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the better a university does in the provision of residential accommodation for students, usually and mainly by the raising of voluntary funds, the greater their difficulties when the current fashion of student rent strikes occurs? Has the noble Lord given any thought to the possibility of linking local authorities' grants to students with their contribution towards their rental payments in order to relieve this very distressing modern feature?
Lord CROWTHER-HUNT: My Lords, so far as the latter part of that question is concerned, grants to students are in such a form that they take into account the reasonable rents that students are expected to pay. I was not sure whether there was another implication behind the question of the noble Lord.
Lord NUGENT of GUILDFORD: Yes, my Lords. I thank the noble Lord for his query to me. Is he aware that
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my point was that here is money being given from public funds, a large part of which comes originally from the Treasury, and in the event students hold up payment of rent when they are engaged in a rent strike? Has the noble Lord given any thought to some way in which there could be a direct payment from the assisting local authority to the funds of the university for the rental element?
Lord CROWTHER-HUNT: My Lords, the position is that it is for the universities and award-making bodies to consider the action they should take in the situation of a rent strike. They have certain powers in this respect so far as students are concerned.
Lord GARNER: My Lords, may I ask the Minister to bear in mind that students from overseas, particularly postgraduates, are tending increasingly to be married, and that it is precisely this group, especially if they have families, who find it difficult to obtain accommodation at all, and certainly to obtain accommodation which is conducive to serious study?
Lord CROWTHER-HUNT: My Lords, we arc aware of that problem.
Lord SEGAL: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that whereas there are positive advantages for children during school age to be living at home, there arc nevertheless distinct disadvantages if students are encouraged to live at home during their university careers?
Lord CROWTHER-HUNT: My Lords, this is a matter which at any rate in part is under study at this moment. From an economic point of view it would obviously be better if more students lived at home, and it would obviate the need for major building programmes. On the other hand, there are educational advantages, as the noble Lord has suggested, in students not being home based during this period. This problem is the subject of study at present.

STEELWORKS CLOSURES REVIEW
2.55 p.m.
Lord LEE of NEWTON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what estimate was given by the BSC of the increased cost of their ten-year strategy as the result of the Interim Closure Review.
The MINISTER of STATE, DEPARTMENT of INDUSTRY (Lord Beswick): My Lords, the British Steel Corporation gave no estimate of increased costs to their ten-year strategy as a result of the Closure Review. Most of the plants given an extended operating life as agreed with the BSC were profitable. Moreover, the steel these plants can now produce will be needed until new development becomes fully effective. There might well be cost penalties if we were to delay the introduction of new plant in order to reprieve older works, but that is not our intention. However, the time taken to bring large new plants into full operation was one of the factors which lead me to recommend deferment of some closure plans.
Lord LEE of NEWTON: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. Can he give any estimate of the basis upon which the iron and steel consumers have stated that this Review will mean an increase of from 20 per cent. in the price of steel, or say why the official spokesman for the Opposition in another place stated that it is a strategy of holding up the investment programme? Also, can the noble Lord estimate the cost that was incurred when the last Government put a stranglehold on the BSC's development programme while they waited for advice from an American firm which they had employed on this subject?
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, I have no idea at all where the Chairman of the Consumers' Council obtained that figure. I am quite sure that the Chairman of the British Steel Corporation, from whom I received absolutely uninhibited co-operation and to whom I have paid my thanks and respects, would have given some figure during our discussions if any such figure was in his mind. I
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am seeing the Chairman of the Consumers' Council about this matter in due course. As to the second part of my noble friend's question, it is a fact that the delay in the original agreement of the ten-year strategy no doubt added to costs.
Lord ROCHESTER: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, shortly after he announced in this House the result of the Interim Closure Review, the Chairman of the British Steel Corporation was reported to have said that it would have been much better for those employed in the outdated steel works to be found more fruitful employment elsewhere?
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, I understand that the Chairman of the British Steel Corporation made a number of comments. What I have said reflects the views that were given by him during the course of the long discussions we had. I again pay my tribute to him for the co-operation which he is giving us towards finding other jobs for those who will inevitably be displaced.
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: My Lords, will my noble friend make it absolutely clear that in the City of Stoke-on-Trent, part of which I had the honour to represent for 25 years, we appreciate the craftsmanship of the workers at the steel works at Shelton Bar; and that by keeping it open we have an economic plant where the workers are of the top type who will not let the Government down but will economically produce steel for the future?
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, I am grateful for what my noble friend said. I read criticism, again, that the decision about Shelton was facing backwards and leading to an uneconomic operation; whereas, in fact, the recommendation for a modern electric are furnace, plus the enthusiasm of the workers concerned, will undoubtedly give a most successful and profitable operation.
Lord DOUGLASS of CLEVELAND: My Lords, my noble friend spoke about closing down profitable plants. Is there any sense in closing down a works such as Shotton which has made a profit all the time I have known it, and which has paid wages and given conditions equal to any in the industry, on the basis of the argument that only coastal plants can

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be profitable in the future. Will my noble friend indicate whether the coastal plant at Llanwern has ever made a profit in the decade during which it has been in operation, and whether there is any sense in investing more and more money in a plant of that character and closing down a plant like Shotton, where profits have been demonstrably good in the past and, so far as one can see, will be good in the future?
If I may ask a supplementary question, in Germany they obviously have the problem that they do not have any deep water ports for the importation of iron ore. Therefore, they are importing via Amsterdam where they are pelletising. Is it not possibe—
Several Noble Lords: Speech, speech!
Lord DOUGLASS of CLEVELAND: My Lords, I will come to the question; I always do! Is it not possible for a pelletising process to be introduced in this country along the lines of the process introduced in Amsterdam, in order that the social upheaval occasioned by the closing down of these plants may be avoided in this country? If I may add a further supplementary question—
Several Noble Lords: Order, order!
Lord DOUGLASS of CLEVELAND: My Lords, my difficulty is that if I ask a question in this House to which the Opposition object, they always shout, "Order, order"and pay little attention to the arguments which I am putting forward.
The LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHEPHERD): My Lords, my noble friend has given me the opportunity to intervene. This is not a time for argument; it is a time for putting Questions. Noble Lords opposite were restive; equally, I think that they might have been restive on an earlier occasion this afternoon. A degree of latitude was then given. Perhaps my noble friend has now gone slightly beyond the latitude that was previously extended to one noble Lord. I wonder whether my noble friend will allow my noble friend Lord Beswick to answer the question. If he thinks it is necessary to do so, he may then put a short supplementary question.
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, my noble friend, with his great experience, is quite right. There have been industrial difficul-
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ties at Llanwern which have made it impossible to exploit the full potential of that works. As I have stated, the economics of the Shotton operation are now being considered more carefully, and we shall certainly bear in mind what my noble friend has had to say. So far as the direct reduction pelletising plant is concerned, this possibility was in our minds when the British Steel Corporation agreed to the Shelton Bar electric arc furnace. Undoubtedly this furnace will make possible the more economic use of scrap.
Lord DOUGLASS of CLEVELAND: My Lords, may I follow the noble Lord's Answer with a supplementary question. I bow always to the directions of the Leader of the House, and if he tells me to do so I shall sit down. According to information which has been supplied by the Chairman of the British Steel Corporation, labour relations in the iron and steel industry are deteriorating rapidly. If one had watched what is happening—
Several Noble Lords: Question, Question!
Lord DOUGLASS of CLEVELAND: My Lords, I shall come to the question. Noble Lords opposite should not jump up too quickly. If noble Lords had watched the television programme last night on what is happening in Ebbw Vale, they would have seen the purport of my question.
Several Noble Lords: Order, Order!
Lord SHEPHERD: My Lords, I must say to my noble friend that he is going a little too far. May I ask him to put his question in an interrogative form and then my noble friend will be able to answer it.
Lord DOUGLASS of CLEVELAND: My Lords, I shall now put my question very precisely. After the television programme last night on what is happening in Ebbw Vale, is my noble friend aware that much is left to be desired in terms of labour relations in the iron and steel industry?
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, I am sure that improvements can be made. Undoubtedly, in dehumanised large works such as Llanwern, new techniques are

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necessary, and the British Steel Corporation are trying to develop these techniques. So far as the television programme about Llanwern is concerned, although I did not see it I am told that it was entirely one-sided and did not give a true picture of the situation there.

BANQUETING HALL ADMISSION CHARGES
3.5 p.m.
Lord REIGATE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have now completed the review of the 2½p admission charge for children to the Whitehall Banqueting Hall announced on 4th July 1974, and of other admission charges for children announced on 12th November 1974.
The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, DEPARTMENT of the ENVIRONMENT (Baroness Birk): My Lords, the question of charges for the admission of children to historic buildings and monuments has now been reviewed. School parties are already admitted free and there is no evidence that the charges, which are half-price or less, deter parents from bringing their children. Accordingly, for reasons of both safety and revenue, no change is proposed.
Lord REIGATE: My Lords, apart from the £29 per annum which is derived from charging children for entrance to the Banqueting Hall, could the noble Baroness say how much more is derived from this source?
Baroness BIRK: My Lords, the latest figures which I have for the resources derived from the entry charges of children visiting monuments exceeded £100,000 in 1973. May I take the opportunity to add that we have an arrangement with the Treasury whereby we obtain extra money for the upkeep of our monuments and historic buildings in relationship to the amount of money that we take. Therefore we have to continue these charges.
Lord SEGAL: My Lords, can my noble friend explain why the Banqueting Hall still has to be closed on Mondays?
Baroness BIRK: My Lords, I cannot answer the noble Lord's question without notice. I imagine it is because there is only one custodian, and perhaps it is her day off. However, I will let my noble friend know the answer to his question.

EEC: COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS
The Earl of LAUDERDALE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will arrange for the authentic text of Resolutions of the European Community to be published in the United Kingdom immediately they are passed by the Council of Ministers.
The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts): My Lords, the publication of the texts of Council Resolutions, as of other proceedings in the Council, is a matter for the Council itself. However, I have taken steps to ensure that the authentic texts of published Resolutions will in future be made available in the Library of the House as soon as they are received in Whitehall.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE: My Lords, in thanking the noble Lord for his reply, may I ask him whether he could extend that arrangement to the point that the Printed Paper Office might hold stocks of these Resolutions? For example, it is not easy to discover what happend in the Council of Energy Ministers as far back as 17th September last, because the documents are not available. Could the noble Lord find out whether these documents might be made available through the Printed Paper Office?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I will consider the point.
Lord SHINWELL: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether the term "Resolutions"embraces the term "decisions"; namely, whether it embraces decisions taken by Ministers? Is it not constitutionally the position that when decisions are taken by the Council of Ministers they must be referred to

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the Commission before they can be published in the United Kingdom or in any other part of the European Economic Community?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, that is so. Resolutions are not decisions; they are not legally binding. They are expressions of opinion as to the consensus, sometimes the interim consensus, which is achieved by Ministers at a certain stage when considering a question.
Lord HALE: My Lords, will the noble Lord bear in mind, with a Referendum approaching, that it is apparent that the information which is being made available in the House and to the public is constantly tendentious and misleading; that the use of perfectly accurate figures so selected as to be misleading is apparent to me in certain Ministerial Statements; and that what is necessary, even if Ministers have the right to disagree, is that the fullest information should be made available to the House and that that information, must not merely be accurate but basically honest?
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I entirely agree with the summation which my noble friend gave towards the end of his question, that information should be as full and as prompt and untendentious as possible.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE: My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that the problem which arises is, first of all, that these documents cannot even be found in the Printed Paper Office, despite the fact that they carry an official Brussels index number? Secondly, even though Resolutions arc not binding on the citizen —because they are pretty woolly, anyway—there is no way of knowing what our Ministers are up to in policies of a general kind to which they are committing the country? Therefore it is important to pursue this matter. As I am sure he will realise, I very much appreciate the step which the noble Lord has already taken. Therefore, may I wish him well in doing still better.
Lord GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I have taken full note of what the noble Earl has said in his supplementaries as well as meeting him on the question he put in substantive form.

BUSINESS
Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE: My Lords, with the leave of the House I should like to make a short statement about tomorrow's business. The House will remember that we cut short the Committee stage of the Children Bill last Thursday because of travel difficulties both for noble Lords and the staff, and I understand that further difficulties are anticipated tomorrow, when we are to take the same Bill again. Your Lordships will know that this is a very important Bill and that the House wants to make good progress. It has therefore been agreed through the usual channels that we should finish the Committee stage tomorrow night. I hope that this prior notice will enable noble Lords who are taking part in the discussion on the Bill to make satisfactory arrangements. I do not anticipate that the House will have to sit very late, but I have arranged for dinners to be available in any case.

MOBILITY OF THE PHYSICALLY DISABLED
3.11 p.m.
Baroness SHARP Baroness SHARP rose to call attention to the generally unsatisfactory character of the invalid car and to the uncertainties surrounding the future of the vehicle service for physically disabled people; and to move for Papers. The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name. It seems that for years now we have been talking about the invalid car, which I will call the "trike"—the car which the Government provide for the severely disabled —but we do not seem to get any further. It is a long time ago since the Department first became very uneasy about the trike. They knew it was not satisfactory and they were getting more and more unhappy about it. What brought things to a head was when it became clear that the ordinary car, adapted to be driven by a disabled person was cheaper than the trike, and most of the drivers of the trikes were clamouring for it. But, there are difficult administrative and financial problems involved in substituting the car for the trike. So nearly three years ago the then Minister asked me if I would look into the whole problem of the mobility of the disabled. What this really meant was the trike.
As your Lordships know, I concluded that the trike had to go, not suddenly overnight, but phased out gradually and replaced by small cars as and when it was practicable to do so. But if the cost of this was to be kept within bounds some very tough decisions had to be taken about who should have the car and on what terms, and these the Government have so far felt quite unable to make. What the Government have done is to decide to provide a mobility allowance of £4 a week for severely disabled people between the ages of 5 and 65. They estimate the number to be about 150,000. This allowance was something I had always hoped to see, but it was beyond my terms of reference. It will be of great value to many disabled people, and I am sure it is warmly welcomed by us all. But it does not solve the problem of the trike. The Government are still stuck with that; partly because they have said that the trike is to be retained for all who prefer it to the £4 allowance, but even more because there are many disabled people who simply must have a vehicle of sorts if they are to live independent lives— people who cannot afford to buy themselves a car, not even with the allowance. If the trike is all they can have, then the trike is what they will have to take, and the trike will be always with us.
This brings us to the question: how bad really is the trike? Is it tolerable that severely disabled people who really do need a vehicle of some kind and cannot afford a car should be provided with this machine? I do not think it is. First, there is the danger involved. We have heard a good deal in the House about this aspect, and there are noble Lords who are much better able to speak on it than I am. But I do not think there is any real doubt that the trike is dangerous. The Government initially took the line that there was not much wrong with the trike, apart perhaps from some minor design faults which could be remedied; but they have been steadily retreating. They have now reached the point where they admit that its safety is "not as good as we would wish"; a meiosis if ever there was one. I am no expert on this, but there really is no doubt about the danger of the trike. Whether, as some would claim, it is the most lethal car on the road, I do not know, but I think it is getting on that way. In a high wind it is
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obviously a murderous machine; it is more liable to skid and overturn than a four-wheeled car, and it must be very vulnerable to impact. This is the vehicle that we provide for people who cannot walk. Imagine what it must be like to be imprisoned in an overturned car and absolutely helpless to do anything!
So much for the danger. There are other great disadvantages. The trike is uncomfortable; it is very liable to break down; and there is constant difficulty over repair. Perhaps these are faults in design which could be remedied, although presumably this would add to the cost. But nothing really can dispel the unsatisfactory nature of a vehicle which began life as a bath chair, is now propelled by a quite powerful engine and is loosed on roads carrying the traffic they now do.
I should like to say just one word about the repair problem. Trikes, of course, have to be repaired at special garages, approved garages which understand them and which carry spare parts. Necessarily there cannot be many such garages; and disabled drivers tell me, and told me all through my inquiry, that getting repairs done could be a nightmare. I heard often how much the disabled wished that when in trouble they could go to the nearest garage, or to the garage of their choice, as the able-bodied can. But while they are condemned to the trike that is not possible.
Last, but by no means least, there is the loneliness involved. As your Lordships will know, trikes cannot carry a passenger, so that the severely disabled must travel alone. For many I believe this to be the bitterest thing of all. It has the added disadvantage that the trike driver cannot be properly taught to drive and cannot properly be tested because no one can drive with him on the roads. I suspect that many trike drivers set off on their driving career very ill-equipped.
But what are the views of the drivers of the trikes? In spite of all the defects, I think the Government may say that many of the trike drivers like their trikes and beg the Government not to get rid of them. I am sure that some have done so. Some have written to me in these terms. In all the talk about danger, in my report which suggested that the conditions of eligibility for the trike had to be reconsidered, and with the promise of the mobility allowance, many of the

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trike drivers must be in great doubt about what is to happen to them.
Despite all its defects, of course, the trike has been immensely valuable to people who drive it. It is their only key to mobility, and they must be anxious to make certain that they do not lose it and get nothing in its place. The real question must be: what would be the reaction of the trike drivers if they were offered a small car adapted so that a disabled person could drive it? Is this the question that has been put to them? I do not doubt that if it were there would be a lew who would prefer the trike; a few who would be afraid that they could not drive a car or that a car would be more expensive to run; a few whose disability makes it difficult for them to drive a car or, perhaps, even to get into a car which could be driven by somebody else.
But I do not believe there would be one in ten of the present trike drivers who, if given the choice between trike and car, would choose the trike. Of over 7,000 war pensioners who had the choice, less than 3 per cent chose the trike. It is quite true that there are differences between war disabled and civilian disabled—there are differences of age, of sex and, to some degree, in the type of disability—and I think it is fair to say that these differences probably mean that a rather higher percentage of civilians would choose the trike. But I am still quite sure that only a very small minority of trike drivers prefer it to the car. They prefer it to nothing, but that is a different matter.
Then why do the Government cling to the trike and continue to produce it? I should like to ask the noble Lord how many trikes are to be produced every year. Of course, the reason why the Government stick to the trike is that if cars were provided and the rules about who gets a vehicle remained the same —except that it could no longer be insisted that the vehicle must be driven by the disabled person—then the demand for a vehicle would be enormously increased. The trikes are self-limiting; that is their charm. They must be driven by the disabled person, but a car need not be. On this, at least, I think we are all agreed; if cars are provided, they must be available as much to those who do not drive as to those who do. I should think that would be
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likely to increase the demand three or four-fold. I hope the noble Lord will agree that this is the only stumbling block in the way of substituting a car for the trike. I hope he will not try to maintain that the trike is not really so very dangerous and that many of the disabled prefer it. As I have said, I do not doubt that there are a few who would prefer it, even given the choice.
My Lords, one of the problems, certainly, is whether it would be practicable to maintain the specialised vehicles for the few. I am doubtful about this, but I am not an expert. It may be part of the price that has to be paid for getting rid of the trike, but it is not a reason for forcing the trike on the great majority of disabled people who would prefer a car. After all, there will be those who do not want the car, or who simply cannot manage it, and there will be the allowance. Let us get it quite clear that the only reason for keeping the trike is the size of the demand for cars.
May I remind the House that when the right honourable gentleman the Prime Minister was Leader of the Opposition, he said that if this were the only reason for keeping the less satisifactory three-wheeler, it would be unacceptable. He said that it would mean rationing, not on the basis of need but on the basis of inferiority. This is exactly what is happening. It is unacceptable but, nevertheless, the problem of cost is a real one and we have to think about it even more now that the Government are committted to about £15 million a year for the mobility allowance. I do not think for a moment that the Government can be expected simply to provide the car in place of the trike, while accepting the disabled passenger as eligible along with the disabled driver.
What, then, should be done? First, I should like to ask the Government whether they really believe in providing a vehicle service at all now that they have the mobility allowance, or are they carrying on with it only because we have it? Do they perhaps hope that given the allowance, and if they can only stick to the unloved trike, it will in time fade out? Or do they accept that there is a good case for helping some severely disabled people to get a vehicle of their own? For my part, I am convinced there is such a good case. We all know that

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there are some among the severely disabled who can live independent lives if they have their own vehicle, and who cannot if they do not. There will be others speaking in this debate who can give testimony to this. Would we not all agree that we ought to see that these people can have the vehicle they need, even if it means helping some to a greater degree than others.
My Lords, if the Government agree that it is right to provide vehicles for some, that we should envisage this as a permanent part of the provision for the disabled, then they must clearly accept the car sooner or later, and the sooner the better. This means that the Government must determine new priorities. They are committed to the present trike drivers; I think all of us would agree with that. It does not have to be a trike for ever and ever, provided that in one way or the other the existing drivers are kept mobile. But for future applicants there can be new rules limiting eligibility to those whose need is greatest. My suggestion was that those who need a vehicle of their own to do a job, to maintain their families, to maintain their households have the greatest need. I still believe this is the right criterion, given that, unhappily, one has to choose. But if anyone has a better way of making a distinction, I shall be delighted.
Whatever is done the Government may say, even if they bring themselves to make the choice, that the cost is still too high. In my Report I calculated—and, admittedly, it had to be a guess—that, on the suggestions I made, there might be about 50,000 people eligible for the car that I was suggesting, as against something like 35,000 who now take the trike or the allowance in lieu; though there are far more than 35,000 who would be eligible for the trike if they chose to take it. So that, overall, there would be more claiming the car, although one must remember that the car is cheaper.
My Lords, I believe—and I have changed my mind since I wrote my Report—that the right course would be for the Government to provide only such help as a person needs in order to get a car. It might be by way of a loan—and I think there are some countries in Europe
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who do it in that way—it might have to be a grant towards the cost of the car; or, in some cases, certainly, it would need to be the whole cost of the car, although the Government need not pay all. I suggested that it was the car itself that should be provided; I was anxious to be sure that the disabled were getting a sound car and at the lowest possible price. I have changed my mind on that. I think the help should be provided as the disabled people themselves have always wanted, by some form of cash grant towards what the person needs.
We must realise that there are many among the disabled who simply cannot afford to buy themselves a car, even with the aid of the new allowance, and even if they are earners. The disabled are not, as a rule, very high earners. They must have a sound car. As some of us may do, they must not rush off and buy a secondhand car and hope for the best; they cannot afford to take the risk. They must have a sound car. Many must be helped; otherwise they have to give up any idea of earning their living, of maintaining their independence.
My Lords, if the Government would do both of these things, would change the rules for new applicants and limit help to those whose need is greatest and to what each applicant needs, then I do not believe the future cost of the vehicle service would be very high once the claims of those existing trike drivers, who might not be eligible under the new rules, began to diminish. It is difficult to make an estimate but it would be no higher, I suggest, than the present vehicle service. In short, I do not think cost has to be a bugbear if the Government face the decisions involved.
I am aware that what I have proposed, with its discretionary administration and decision case by case, would raise very great administrative problems involving a case by case judgment. I would make a shrewd guess that my late colleagues in the Civil Service would say, "We cannot do this". But I can tell your Lordships from my experience that once the Government make up their mind about what they want to do, their servants will find a way to do it, and it is worth an enormous effort to get rid of the trike and to solve the problem of the vehicle service once for all. I beg to move for Papers.
3.28 p.m.
Lord ABERDARE: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp—I nearly said "noble Dame"—for having introduced this debate this afternoon on which she is such an expert. It is a matter which is very difficult to resolve. I should also like to start by expressing great sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, who has been in action every day this week, hour after hour, with the Children Bill to start with, then yesterday the Social Security Bill; now he is involved with this very difficult question—I shall be "having at him "again later on when we are discussing the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital—all of us demanding in one way or another that the Government should spend more money on our pet causes.
To my mind, the whole question of providing cars in place of three-wheelers is a matter of money. There can, surely, be no doubt at all in anybody's mind that a four-wheeler is safer than a three-wheeler, for very obvious reasons, and that a car has the great additional advantage of allowing a passenger to be carried. That not only helps the disabled person, who can then do a good turn to somebody else by taking them as a passenger, but it also means that a disabled person who is unable to drive has some form of transport. But the trouble is that to make any such very desirable change would cost many millions of pounds, and the question that the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, has to face up to is whether this extra expense can be justified against the many other needs of the disabled and, indeed, the many other demands on the social services as a whole.
Personally, I do not agree with those who allege that the three-wheeler is so dangerous that it should be taken off the road. I do not believe that such allegations have been proved, and I believe that, if properly used, the three-wheeler gives good service. In fact, I should go further and say that those who are too loud in their condemnation of the three-wheeler do a disservice to many disabled people who have to use them.
I am sure that it is right that disabled drivers with three-wheeled cars should realise that this vehicle—like any other three-wheeler—is not as stable as a four-
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wheeled car. It needs to be driven with greater care. But I think it wrong to cause panic by suggesting that this vehicle is too dangerous to use on the roads. Were the three-wheeler to be hurriedly withdrawn, considerable hardship would be caused to many disabled drivers who have come to rely on it, and to some who are, in fact, not able to drive cars. It would surely be quite impossible to replace three-wheelers by cars in a short space of time.
So what is the answer? The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, gave one answer in her Report—although she has somewhat modified her approach today— which was to issue cars in future to priority users, broadly defined as those who need them for work or to continue education. But the drawback of that proposal is that there are many categories of people who are at present qualified for an invalid car but who would no longer qualify. Certainly I would find that very hard to accept. I do not think that the Government would accept it. I do not think the disabled have accepted it, and I do not really think it to be practical politics. I also have very considerable doubt about the practicality of the suggestion that she put forward today of each case being considered on its merits. I have grave doubts as to whether this really is a practical way of proceeding, and whether there would not be so many anomalies as to make it unworkable.
The Government have given another answer, and that is to continue to issue the three-wheeler and to give a mobility allowance to all those with restricted walking ability. In many ways this has great attraction, in that it makes the mobility allowance available to those who need help regardless of whether or not they can drive a car. But at £4 a week, this is not likely to enable many people to buy and run their own car. I wondered, as the noble Baroness has also suggested, whether the Government had given any thought to the possibility of providing interest-free loans to those who qualify for this mobility allowance to help them to buy a car over a period. May I ask the noble Lord to confirm that the mobility allowance will be introduced in 1975–76, and, if so. when we may expect the relevant legislation to be ready?

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Our position—as expressed in the Election Manifesto—was that we thought it a minimum aim to ensure that all those who were qualified for three-wheelers should be able to exchange them for cars if they wished to do so. That was taking the same criterion as exists at present for the issue of a three-wheeler, but allowing a car to be an alternative choice. That was the policy we had in mind. Of course, the situation has now changed and it is likely that a mobility allowance will be introduced. I should think that, once that is done, it would be unthinkable to return to the present system.
In my view, future progress would be more likely to lie in the direction of improvements in the rate and conditions of the new allowance rather than in the direct issue of cars. But, of course, any such improvement would cause a further large demand on national resources, once again raising questions of priorities with regard to other needs. I began by sympathising with the noble Lord who is carrying such a heavy burden of Government work, but I have no sympathy with the Government themselves in facing up to the problem of the provision of cars instead of three-wheelers. They were loud in their protestations at our delay in so doing, and they were the first, when in Opposition to condemn the three-wheeler and demand its replacement. They now sing a different song of £4 a week and keep the three-wheeler. It is one thing to call for increased benefits in Opposition, it is quite another to put them into practice when in Government.
Nor have the Government been very generous with the petrol allowance for those who drive an invalid vehicle. It has been increased to £10 a year from the 1st January last, but how far does that go at the present price of petrol? Can the noble Lord tell us what a three-wheeler does in miles per gallon and therefore how many miles the £10 represents? I wonder whether they have in mind any increase to keep this figure more in line with the tremendous increase in petrol prices. My Lords, there is a great head of steam behind the campaign to replace the three-wheeler by a car, and the Party opposite, in Opposition, added to that pressure. They have only themselves to blame if they are now in danger of causing an explosion.
3.39 p.m.
Lord WALLACE of COSLANY: My Lords, in addressing this House for the first time may I crave your Lordships' indulgence, the traditional indulgence given to innocent victims like myself making the traditional first speech. However, in some sense, for me it is a reincarnation, because in point of fact on the 16th February 1946, I made my maiden speech in another place, in fact in this Chamber, when your Lordships so generously gave haven to a bombed-out Commons. It was in fact on the occasion of the Second Reading of the National Insurance Bill. The theme of the debate in 1946 was the need to assist the less fortunate members of society and to give protection and help to them and their families, and this, I feel, is in fact the underlying theme of the debate this afternoon. May I respectfully congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, and thank her for giving us the opportunity to debate such a vital social issue.
For all the limitations and faults of the invalid car, there is no doubt whatever that their issue under the present scheme has provided the great blessing of mobility and access to employment. Mobility by such means in turn gives independence and, indeed a most important factor, a feeling of usefulness to society. While I have admitted the value of the present vehicle, let us face the fact that it tends by its very appearance to classify the disabled person. Many of us have shared the frustration of those who long for a vehicle but marginally are not qualified. Those of us who have represented our people in another place and met them at weekends have known many such cases. Of course there must be rules under which provision is made, but I have often felt, and still feel, that those rules have been too tightly drawn.
On Friday last—and this, my Lords, was the reason for my intervening today in a maiden speech—I was privileged to give a little film show at a club for the handicapped. As your Lordships will have noticed, by far the biggest problem was the collection and dispersal of members; and indeed, but for the invaluable help of the British Red Cross Society, such a gathering would not have been possible. May I say in passing that it was a most exceptionally cheerful afternoon.

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With the Motion of the noble Baroness in mind, I sounded the opinions of some of the club members on the standard vehicle, and the reaction can be summed up in the words of one lady: "Don't think I'm ungrateful, dear, but a converted Mini would be lovely and comfortable. "I must say that the able-bodied volunteers helping at the club were very forthright in their condemnation of the present vehicle. What many disabled people long for is the means of having their wives or husbands with them, together with their children, and not to have their mobility partially negatived by single isolation. Perhaps there should indeed be a choice, as the noble Baroness has said. One reason why I make this comment is that I have been to a number of football matches, particularly at Carrow Road in Norwich, and have there seen many of the disabled single vehicles around the football pitch; but, of course, if the other vehicle was made a standard issue it would not be possible for those keen followers of football to attend the matches in their present vehicles. Another point which I think is vitally important is that handicapped mothers with children long for the opportunity to take their children to school and to collect them, rather than depending on a neighbour.
My Lords, underlying all this is that longing for independence, which handicapped people want and can have if we give them the means. This is a notable desire and one that we should bear in mind. I am a pedestrian. My family tells me that I do not have an 10 high enough to learn to drive a car, but that is not quite true. However, as a pedestrian and not a motorist, I do not feel qualified to comment on the technical advantages or disadvantages of the present standard vehicle. But many times I have experienced the feelings and frustrations of the handicapped with families, and for them a converted four-wheel car is a dream that does not often come true.
Of course, as the last speaker from the Opposition Front Bench has said, the question of cost arises. Every time one asks for reforms the question of cost arises. I agree, that this is a difficult time to think about incurring additional costs, but I put this to your Lordships' House: is it a case of "cannot afford it or
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go without"? To me the question is one of human priorities. Some time ago at an international conference in Delhi I said that I would rather solve the problem of world poverty than fly to the moon. This rather disturbed the civil servant in charge of us, representing the Foreign Office, because he thought I would upset the Americans and the Russians. But in this world of ours we have responsibilities one to another, and that sense of priorities, of human values, I submit with respect, applies to our debate today.
3.46 p.m.
Baroness MASHAM of ILTON: My Lords, it lies with me to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Coslany, on his excellent maiden speech. He has illustrated to us his great understanding of the need for mobility and the united family, which I feel is so very important, and I personally was highy delighted to hear him mention the Red Cross, as I am myself a member. I hope we may look forward to his further support in this matter on many other occasions, and hear him speak regularly.
My Lords, I seem to have been speaking in your Lordships' House on several occasions lately and I hope your Lordships will bear with me once more. Like the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, I should like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, on the enormous amount of work he has been able to cope with in the last few weeks. When the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, asked the Starred Question on this subject a short time ago, there was; great interest from all parts of the House; therefore I thank the noble Baroness for her persistence in giving your Lordships yet another chance of discussing this serious matter, and I hope that some of the uncertainties will be made clear today by the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell.
Many disabled people have been greatly worried at the increase in the VAT on petrol and the ever increasing price of petrol, but the Government announced on 21st November last year that £10 a year would be paid to all drivers of petrol-driven three-wheelers and cars supplied by the Health Department. Also, the Government are introducing the £4 a week mobility allowance for those who do not have Ministry vehicles. May I ask the Minister to make absolutely

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clear who will qualify for this new mobility allowance?
The Government are to be thanked for those allowances, however small they may be. As your Lordships will know, there is great concern on the part of the general public over the continued use of the three-wheel tricycle. The greatest concern among many seems to be the fact that several disabled people drive alone and often cannot get help when the vehicle breaks down, which is a very common occurrence. But abolishing the invalid tricycle overnight and replacing it by a small car would not solve all the problems, though it would help with some of them, as has been so ably stated by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp. I should like to ask the Minister why, for those people who qualify for the Government car, the Government have chosen the Mini? I ask this question because I find the Mini a very difficult car to get out of and into a wheelchair. It is too low. When I was a patient in Stoke Mandeville, I observed that many serious road accidents involving neck and back injuries occurred in Minis. My noble friend Lady Darcy de Knayth is one such victim. There is little in the front of a Mini for protection, and they can be driven fast round corners.
I must declare a personal interest in this debate as I am Chairman of the Spinal Injuries Association and nearly all our members are greatly concerned over the uncertainties surrounding the future of the vehicle service for physically disabled people, and the rapid deterioration of this service during the past year. My main concern is of the attitude of civil servants at the Department of Health and Social Security at Blackpool to consultants specialising in rehabilitation and to their patients. No Department could have displayed more clearly their bureaucratic stubborness towards the real needs of severely disabled people.
In 1970, the Amelia Harris Report on disabled people stated that the majority were elderely, many suffering from rheumatic and arthritic conditions. The elderly people in our community have generally had many active, full years of youth and they no longer wish to lead strenuous, hard lives, but there is a small and vital group of young disabled people cut off suddenly in the prime of life,
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or even before they have reached it. I speak now of the severe spastic, the young boy with muscular dystrophy, the severe spinal injury, and others, all so badly paralysed that they have to use a wheelchair 24 hours a day. To rehabilitate these severely disabled people and get them to accept their condition is not an easy job, especially those young people who have lived and loved and have had a traumatic sudden injury. Just what does a young man of 19 feel like when he realises what he has done when he breaks his back? Can you honestly compare him with a grannie of 75 with arthritis? That is exactly what the Department of Health and Social Security is doing.
I quote from a letter received by a consultant from a senior medical officer in Blackpool writing over the supply of wheelchairs to patients:
"It is not the question of one doctor's understandable desire to do the very best for an individual patient but of Department policy in the light of our overall obligations. Such a policy necessarily has to take account of many factors, including the money that can be allocated to a given class of patient, the need to demonstrate equal treatment to all our clients, and the very compelling claims for improving in other directions."
Whatever direction you look in to these severely disabled people a wheelchair is an essential, and if they are working they need two. If the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, could do anything to speed up the very inadequate repair service for chairs, many people would be saved incredible inconvenience. Unless an experienced consultant can select the wheelchair most suitable for his patient, there will continue to be dissatisfied patients and frustrated doctors. How can patients prepare for living full lives at home if they cannot look forward to having such vehicles and the adaptations needed to make them independent?
While listening to the Second Reading debate of the Social Security Benefits Bill yesterday and hearing of the millions of pounds that the Government are going to spend, I thought of the debate today. How much more satisfactory it would be to make as many disabled people as possible mobile so that they can get out to work and earn a good wage and pay their taxes. To integrate disabled people into the community they must learn to jump a wheelchair up a kerb and up a step. This is common practice in re-

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habilitation all over the world, but to do this a well-balanced, strong wheelchair must be used. Some physiotherapists from Newcastle-upon-Tyne told me that they had written to Blackpool trying to secure the correct chair for a boy patient, because the 8L Ministry specification which is so inferior and difficult to manipulate was the one supplied. The answer received from Blackpool was that the practice of mounting a kerb was not approved of by them. The physiotherapists' indignation was unfortunately just another example of wasted energy. How can they win when they are dealing with people with closed minds to the needs of individual patients?
Before ending, I should like to mention one more disturbing practice, and I would ask the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, whether there is anything he can do to help. In some areas such as South London and South Yorkshire, the ambulance men have refused to carry a wheel-chair belonging to a severely disabled patient. To be divided from your own chair is the same as having your artificial legs removed or, if you are a very shortsighted person, much worse that having your glasses taken away. This practice seems totally inhuman, and I should be very grateful if the noble Lord could advise me on this.
3.56 p.m.
Lord AIREDALE: My Lords, the noble Baroness speaks from practical experience, and I believe that we shall hear of more practical experience in this matter as soon as I sit down. These are the speeches which are so valuable in a debate of this kind. I join with the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Coslany, whose attractive maiden speech we listened to just now, in not feeling able to comment on the technical shortcomings of what the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, refers to as the "trike", but I have always thought that Mr. Graham Hill seemed to make good sense when he said. "Give me a wheel at each corner every time."
When this Motion was put down in our Minutes I knew that somewhere I had read of the Government's intentions about a mobility allowance, and I went to our highly efficient Printed Paper Office to ask them whether they could trace the document, but they could not. I managed to establish from the Depart-
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ment that it had been issued on 13th September, and I felt sure that the relevant back number of The Times would print the reference number to the document, because they nearly always do, but in this case they did not. The Library of another place managed to find me a copy of it; furthermore, they kindly gave me a Xeroxed copy of it, and I am very grateful to them.
Here is a document which is referred to in The Times as a House of Commons Paper, but I should call it virtually a Government White Paper, because it sets out the Government's intentions to be implemented shortly by legislation. It has no reference number printed on it, so far as I know it appears in no index, and so no wonder the Printed Paper Office could not find it. I am not, of course, attacking the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, but I would say that any Government must make documents of this kind more readily available, and they must not hide their light under a bushel. How can a Parliamentary debate be of full value if the latest document announcing the Government's intentions is so difficult to find?
Coming now to the merits of the document, I am filled with enthusiasm for it. I welcome for instance that the document says that the Government recognise the limitations of the present invalid vehicle in comparison with a car. That is not quite as strong as the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, puts it, but the recognition is there. I welcome also the Government's recognition that this new mobility cash grant must be applicable to non-drivers as well as to disabled people who happen to be able to drive. It seems to me that the one great merit of the cash grant is that it introduces elasticity into the means available to the person in receipt of the grant and gets rid. of the conception that Whitehall knows best how to provide in kind for each and every disabled person with his own peculiar personal difficulties.
I would hope that it would be positively fun for disabled people coming into this scheme in the future to plan how to get the best advantage out of their cash mobility grant. There are all sorts of possibilities which are opened up and which are referred to in the Government statement. Coach trips are one

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of the best valued methods of transportation. These will be available to people out of their cash grant. Others may prefer more occasionally to travel by taxi. There are, of course, powered wheelchairs, and some may prefer to spend their grants in the provision for themselves of one of these. Then there is the possibility of sharing motoring costs with a friend and not feeling dependent on him, but having a grant out of which the disabled person can remunerate his friend and share the cost of his car.
In this connection there is one matter that I suggest the Government should consider rather carefully. I believe the law is that if you carry a passenger for reward—and I would imagine that a disabled person handing over part of his grant would come within this category—you are infringing one of the conditions of your insurance policy. I would hope that before this cash grant arrangement becomes sanctified the Government would take the opportunity of discussing this matter with the insurance companies to try to provide that the carrying of disabled people and receiving part of their grant would not constitute carrying a passenger for reward and breaching the conditions of the insurance policy. I believe that when we had a severe fuel crisis last winter there was a relaxation in this regard, and what could be wrung from the insurance companies over the fuel crisis I would hope could be wrung from them in regard to disabled people sharing other people's cars.
We are told that the intention is that there is to be a flat rate mobility grant of £200. May I briefly examine both those propositions. First of all, why a flat rate? I can see that a flat rate is easy to administer, but does it produce justice? So far as leisure travel is concerned I should be quite happy with a flat rate grant; but if there is to be an element to cover travelling to and from work, surely the flat rate conception fails utterly. I should have thought that a disabled person travelling to and from work ought to receive a grant representing the difference between what it costs him in his present state and what it would cost to travel to and from work if he were an able-bodied person. If he lives in the country and there is no bus service
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and he has to drive to work, and an able-bodied person would likewise have to drive to work, then the grant would be nil. On the other hand, supposing there is a bus service but the disabled person cannot use it. Surely he is entitled to a grant to represent the difference between the bus fare and what it costs to use whatever form of transport he has to use. I would hope that in respect of travelling to work the flat rate conception would be abandoned.
We are told it is to be £200. If you have a flat rate, why £200? I am not quarrelling with that figure; all I am saying is that, so far as I have been able to discover, the Government have not explained how they have done their sums in order to arrive at £200. I do not know whether the noble Lord will be able to answer this point this evening, but I hope that if a flat rate grant is to be provided and before the scheme gets statutory approval we shall be told and be able to judge whether £200 is a suitable figure.
My Lords, I welcome the statement that the changes proposed will not interfere with the arrangement which disabled people already have. I would also welcome that even a person with a trike who is happy with his trike and wants to continue with it, and does not want to have to start again working out all his arrangements under a new scheme, should be enabled to continue with something with which he is happy even though other people would not be happy with it.
Finally, there is one matter which is not referred to in the statement. I understand that disabled people running cars are at present excused the vehicle excise duty. I would hope that this concession would continue, and that under the new scheme the vehicle excise licence would not be required of disabled people running cars. With these few observations I welcome the statement of the Government's intention which I found so hard to come by.
4.7 p.m.
Baroness DARCY de KNAYTH: My Lords, much has been said with increasing fervour lately against the invalid tricycle—that it is dangerous, that it singles out disabled people because of its specific design, that it is anti-social because it

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can carry no passengers, and is useless for a disabled passenger who is too disabled to drive himself. Certainly for me the most welcome aspect of the Report of the noble Baroness was the conclusion that disabled drivers and passengers should be treated alike; that it was absurd that the most severely disabled were excluded from the invalid vehicle service because eligibility depended on the physical ability to drive. I am further delighted to learn today that the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, has changed her mind in favour of a cash grant rather than supplying cars. I should also like to add my thanks to her for giving us the opportunity to debate this matter.
I think I should say here that I am a member of the Joint Committee for Mobility for the Disabled on which most organisations concerned with disabled people are represented. The Committee's views embrace the opinions of all its members and are ones which I heartily support. Before we press too hard for the immediate abolition of the three-wheeler, can we for a moment consider the situation of those who stand to lose by its disappearance. The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, and the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, have already mentioned these people. First of all, there are 16-year-olds who, although they will admittedly be phased into the new proposed mobility allowance, are at an age when independence and the need to get out and about and away from their families is very important. I do not think that the £4 a week allowance would give them as much independent mileage as they now enjoy. Some people suggest that a car for 16-year-old disabled drivers would be a possibility, but since the minimum age limit for able-bodied drivers is, in any case, likely to be raised I do not see this as a realistic proposition. Secondly, there are some people who may not be able to pass their driving test in currently available adapted cars, and they value their present independent mobility. Thirdly, there are some who think they are incapable of driving conventional cars, and some do not want to try. These are mainly elderly people without previous motoring experience.
I must rapidly underline that I am not advocating retention of the three-wheeler in its present form. I think it has many faults and drawbacks and the Joint Com-
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mittee regard research and development into the production of a specialised vehicle as of prime importance, because they believe there will be a continuing need for some form of specialised vehicle for some physically disabled people. It is interesting to note that Sweden, which is a particularly go-ahead country in giving help to the disabled, offers a special vehicle as an alternative to a mobility grant. Many people in the categories I have mentioned would have been denied any form of outdoor mobility if the recommendations in the noble Baroness's Report had been followed. While they will now receive the new mobility allowance—and, incidentally, I hope that the over-65s will be included in this mobility allowance, although it seems at present that they will not be—those who cannot for one reason or another drive currently available adapted cars will be denied the choice between independent mobility and hired transport if there is no specialised vehicle available.
In common with the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, I see this feature of choice in the proposed mobility allowance as being so very important. The second part of the noble Baroness's Motion calls "attention to the uncertainties surrounding … the vehicle service for physically disabled people ". I do not see "uncertainties"; I see rather the start of a move towards a mature and realistic solution of the out door mobility problems of disabled people. I must stress that it is only a start; the proposed £208 per annum taxable allowance will be worth little more than the value of the £100 per annum private car allowance when it was introduced in 1972.
But there are two enormously important principles contained in the Government's proposals: first, following the lead of the noble Baroness's Report, there is the fact that disabled passengers and drivers should be treated alike; and, secondly, there is the fact that those receiving the grant will be able to spend it on whatever form of mobility they choose. Is that not a breakthrough? We have moved from a vehicle service available only to those who can drive, to a mobility scheme which offers freedom of choice to both disabled drivers and passengers. While mobility allowance as proposed at present will, as the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, has already

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pointed out, in no way assist the less well-off drivers and passengers to buy a car, I see it as a first step forward in the direction of a mobility grant scheme such as the Joint Committee on Mobility have long been advocating.
Let me tell your Lordships what this mobility grant would consist of. First, there would be a five-yearly lump sum sufficient to buy a small car; secondly, a taxable allowance to cover the cost of running and maintaining a car; thirdly, a non-taxable allowance to offset motoring taxes. Given the present difficult financial situation, I feel that the most severely disabled and the least well-off should be given priority. I think that those who can well afford to buy a car should not be helped to buy one. But I must stress that I am not suggesting a supplementary benefit level based type of means test. Buying a car is a large capital outlay, so an income of £2,000 per annum or less would be insufficient to cover an expense of this magnitude. Nevertheless, those who can afford to buy a car should be allowed the taxable allowance for maintenance and repairs, and the non-taxable allowance to offset motoring taxes, because private motoring is not a luxury for disabled drivers and passengers. No public transport system, however expensively adapted and run, will ever be able to suit all types of physically disabled people and provide a realistically door-to-door service for them. Indeed, the existence of the invalid vehicle service, whatever its previous shortcomings, is proof that that is an accepted fact.
Mobility pays off in that it enables disabled people to do a job, pay their taxes, support their families and keep them together, thus avoiding additional burdens on the State. In any case, I do not believe that the numbers involved would be as great as the Department fears, and no survey has ever been carried out to find just what sort of numbers are involved. This mobility grant would at last allow the disabled passenger and driver the freedom which every able-bodied car buyer in this country unthinkingly enjoys—the right to choose the car best suited to himself, his family, his circumstances and his own way of life. We should also bear in mind that there are some disabled pas-
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sengers and drivers who would prefer the Department to accept responsibility for administering their mobility grant. I therefore believe we should offer a three-fold choice to all who qualify for mobility help, whether or not they are able to drive themselves.
First, there should be a specialised vehicle for those who want it; secondly, a mobility grant enabling people to purchase the car of their choice; thirdly, the few who feel that they cannot cope with the mobility grant should have a small car, suitably adapted for driver or passenger, with the repair and maintenance costs paid by the vehicle service. It is very important that this service should retain its identity and not be swallowed up with other care or cash provisions for disabled people, as the invalid vehicle service involves only a relatively small proportion of those qualifying for other benefits. I firmly believe that this three-fold choice is a realistic plan which would cover the varying needs of all types of disabled people who qualify for mobility assistance, offering them freedom of choice and the chance to act as free, responsible, mature and productive members of the community.
I have one final point, my Lords. I have outlined the longer-term future, as I see it, stemming from the proposed new mobility allowance, but there is an immediate and very pressing need. Disabled passengers at present receive no mobility assistance—except the road tax exemption—and they urgently need help in the face of rapidly rising costs. I wonder whether the overworked and noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, can tell me in his reply whether they will have priority when the mobility allowance is phased in, or whether, in common with disabled drivers who at present choose to buy their own cars, they might receive the £100 per annum private car allowance in the interim period to help them to remain mobile.
4.17 p.m.
The Countess of LOUDOUN: My Lords, outdoor mobility is vital to people who cannot walk at all, or can walk only with great difficulty and cannot make use of public transport. The developments in the socialisation of young disabled people, in their pursuit of further and higher education, employment, marriage

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and family commitments, all follow from the ability to travel outdoors. Outdoor mobility is equally essential for mature disabled people whose lives would be impoverished were they to be made housebound. That is why I am totally opposed to the abolition of the invalid tricycle.
I am convinced that a not insignificant number of drivers would suffer if the invalid tricycle were to be replaced by a Mini; the 16 to 17 year olds who, by law, are too young to drive a car, but who, nevertheless, need mobility in this very important year of development in their lives; the invalid tricycle drivers, who are physically unable to drive currently available adapted cars; and others who believe they cannot do so and are now reluctant to try. There are some people who now hold a licence to drive an invalid tricycle who might not pass a driving test in an adapted car. Others with provisional licences welcome the mobility they now enjoy in driving invalid tricycles. I know that some drivers find it easier to handle their wheelchairs in invalid tricycles than in cars, that some find the size of the tricycle convenient, while others enjoy the ability to drive and park where cars might be prohibited. I am not advocating the permanent retention of the invalid tricycle as it now exists. I realise there are problems with it, but surely in this technological age an improved vehicle could be produced with more research.
I should also like to see the vehicle service extended to encompass the needs of disabled passengers, and to improve the help now offered to disabled drivers. I believe this can be achieved only by offering disabled people the choice of an invalid tricycle or a mobility grant. But I understand that some disabled drivers and passengers might prefer the Department to accept responsibility for administering their mobility grant, by supplying them with a suitably adapted small car and paying its maintenance and repairs. But all this would involve considerable expenditure, whatever the number of people eligible under the scheme. There seems to be a worrying lack of information on what this number would be and on what people might opt for if presented with this choice. Would it be possible for the Department to undertake a modest survey of disabled driver;, people using wheel chairs and
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those receiving attendance allowances, to gain some estimate of these unknowns?
My final point is about the recent increase in the cost of motoring—the rise in the basic cost of petrol, of petrol tax and of buying and maintaining a vehicle. These increases are threatening to immobilise many who now enjoy the freedom to travel out of doors. We must not allow this to happen and let us be quite sure, before we take anything away from these people, that we have something very much better—and something which is available—to give them in its place.
4.22 p.m.
Viscount HANWORTH: My Lords, it is always rather difficult speaking at the end of a short debate because one does not wish to take up too much time and also because a good many of the things that one might have said have already been said. This is probably particularly so in my own case as I have not the experience of many of the speakers this afternoon. I believe that we are coming to the point where we shall really be getting down to the difficult issues. In the past I think that there may have been some overstatement by the protagonists about getting rid of the trike at any price. They called it extremely dangerous: more dangerous than other vehicles it undoubtedly is, but not so dangerous that sensible people will say that it should be removed from everybody by tomorrow morning. The Government, for their part, have put out a smokescreen to cover their real difficulties. I hope that this afternoon we can face those real difficulties and that the Government will do so.
There is no doubt at all that the trike is by any standards an unsatisfactory vehicle. It may have advantages for certain people, but it is not at all a good vehicle and one wonders why it was ever put on the roads. I do not know which Government were responsible, but I suspect that it was not technological factors that influenced the decision but a puritanical and Scrooge-like attitude which insisted that this was personal transport and that under no circumstances should anybody but the disabled person be allowed to drive or ride in the vehicle.
My Lords, let us examine this attitude for one moment. I have already said that it was puritanical and Scrooge-like.

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One must remember that, if one is disabled, to have a passenger can be of enormous help and comfort. Indeed, in many cases it is absolutely necessary to have such a passenger in order to be able to get about. There is another angle here as well: again, I speak without experience, but I think that many disabled people who fight their disability are not at all happy at going about in something which is so obviously a C3 vehicle. They want to do their best to show that they are as normal as is possible, though I know there are exceptions. So I believe that it is essential to be able to take a passenger and also, in certain circumstances, to be able to let somebody else drive the car. The disabled person may not be feeling very well and there arises the question of danger on the road, safety and so on. Of course one would not allow such a car to be taken out on joyrides by the family. In any case, we must not forget that today the price of the petrol is quite a deterrent to using a car excessively.
In Holland, we see that an adapted car is provided practically without exception. The only exception is a sort of motorised bathchair which is given in extreme cases. The most usual vehicle is an adapted Daf 44. I am sure that we should and must take a firm decision that the trike must not go on indefinitely. The sensible course is, I believe, to give a choice. A very small number of people—and I think that the evidence is that they will be well under 4 per cent. of the total— will probably take the trike. It is no , good the Government saying, "Oh yes, we will provide a mobility grant to enable you to buy and adapt a car." We must not forget that £200, or whatever the figure may be, does not provide the necessary capital. People must be given the three choices—that is, the trike if they wish to have it, a new adapted vehicle which I hope will be produced or the mobility grant. Following that, the existing tricycles should be phased out in a programme which would still allow those who wish to keep them to do so.
What is the difficulty about this? We know what the trouble is: it is a fear on the part of the Government and, presumably, the Treasury that we would be opening the floodgates whereas at this time one cannot reasonably provide extra
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funds, however good the purpose. One could have some sympathy with that point of view, but I think that it would be better if the Government said so straight out. What I am saying to them now is that if there are difficulties, if they must keep the total expenditure down to the present level, they must, as the noble Baroness who introduced the debate said, grasp the nettle. There are ways in which that could be done without necessarily applying means tests, and in my opinion that is what must be done.
4.28 p.m.
Lady KINLOSS: My Lords, I for one was delighted when I learnt that the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, had been successful in the ballot and had been able to arrange the present debate. Much was said during the last debate in April, but there are still things to be said and thought about. I felt overwhelmed by the amount of research which the noble Baroness had conducted single-handed. Her Report contained a list more than five pages long of associations and persons who had given written or oral evidence. However, I wonder whether it is not always wiser to have more than one individual on a commission. Where there is more than one member each helps the others with mutual friendly criticism and a broader band of experience. The noble Baroness did valuable work single-handed and is much to be congratulated.
I should like only to examine a small number of aspects of this matter. There was a Somali boy whom I used frequently to see near the Steamer Point Market when I lived in Aden. He had lost both legs and what remained of his thighs was strapped to a rough wooden board mounted on roller skates. He paddled himself around with his hands, singing and laughing. He had extraordinary gaiety and courage. I mention him to illustrate what seems to me to be the nub of this matter: what he wanted above all was to get about and to talk to people and within his limitations, to live some sort of ordinary life.
My Lords, I am not an expert on invalid carriages or, specifically, Invacars. In the hamlet of Lilling near York, next to the village where I live, there is a Mr. Mason, who has been using invalid carriages for some 22 years. He is crippled in both legs from spinal meningitis. I

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am grateful to him for a long talk in which he told me some of his problems, some—but not all—of which are mentioned in the Report. He showed me the very useful little handbook for Invacar users. This gives instructions about what to do in the event of a breakdown. One has to flash the lights or hang a white handkerchief out of the window. Last November he broke down during daylight between Wetherby and York and waved his handkerchief. At various intervals no less than five police cars passed him, but not one stopped. Eventually, he was rescued by a tractor driver who was pulling a load of sugar beet. His rescuer went back two miles down the road to telephone for help for him. It has always been easy to criticise the police, but one wonders why not one out of five police curs stopped. Had the police really been told the significance of the white handkerchief? Is the display of a white handkerchief a sufficient signal? It is perhaps something that one would not easily notice.
Mr. Mason told be that a mechanic in a Government-approved repair garage in York suggested a wooden sign with the letter "H" in orange luminous paint, which he could hold out of the car. This seems a useful and simple suggestion. I am told that this garage is most efficient in looking after Invacars. Again, not long ago Mr. Mason had a puncture. The Invacar has no spare wheel or jack or wheelbrace. Even if one wanted to help him, one could not. He had to bump home on a flat tyre. Of course he could not change the tyre himself, but no doubt plenty of other road users would have been happy to help him.
Mr. Mason thinks of this car as his legs: otherwise, he would be housebound. He has a wheelchair indoors and in this way he is able to be completely independent and live by himself. He can do what he likes. He said it would be nice to have a car, particularly if it were cheaper to run. It would be nice to go out in company and not always by himself, but he would not be able to take his wheelchair with him, unless the front passenger seat of the car was removable and a slide made available for his own seat so that he could follow the wheelchair through the doorway. I think, my Lords, that he has drawn attention to a very important point. It is an argument
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not so much about three-wheeled or four-wheeled vehicles, but about what can be done for the four-wheeled vehicle, so that a man could manage it and get in and out by himself. He says he could manage only sliding doors.
Mr. Mason let me have a good look at the vehicle. I am not surprised that it is draughty, because there is a gap near the front of the door and an even larger gap at the back. I cannot think what on earth these gaps are for—it quite defeats me. I asked him how he was managing as a result of the increased cost of petrol. Recently, he was given an increased allowance for which he is very grateful. I know that it is very hard for the Government to be open-handed with money these days. Invacars consume a mixture of petrol and oil which costs 81p per gallon, which is more expensive than 4-star petrol. I wonder whether the Government could consider relieving Invacar users of VAT altogether? These are some quite simple suggestions. Mr. Mason is very thankful to be able to have an Invacar. He understands very well the problems created by wind. The simple answer I am told is simply not to try to drive too fast, and to watch for the direction of the wind. But one has to do that, of course, with any car. He hopes that the criticisms and suggestions he has made to me may assist the Government to help other users.
4.33 p.m.
Lord MAYBRAY-KING: My Lords, I was late in handing in my name for the list of speakers and I thought it would be better if I did not let my name stand, but rather intervened only briefly if time allowed. May I first take the opportunity of congratulating an old Parliamentary colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Coslany, on an excellent maiden speech. We are fortunate to have in this debate Front Benchers, on both sides of the House, of ability and humanity in the person of the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, and the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell. I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, on initiating this debate, on her speech and on the work that she did on the Sharp Report. I believe that the Sharp Report is a landmark in the history of the provision of mobility for the disabled. I speak as a Vice-President of the Disabled Drivers' Association and I would

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echo and remind your Lordships of some words spoken by the noble Earl, Lord Snowdon, in his maiden speceh in this House on 10th April 1974. He said:
"Is there not something wrong when disabled people form themselves not just into social clubs or advisory bodies—that is fair enough—but also into pressure groups?"— [Official Report, 10/4/74; col. 1245.]
My Lords, there ought to be no need for pressure groups for the disabled. The DDA is a pressure group and as long as it remains a pressure group that is wrong.
I remind your Lordships of the fundamental issue of the tricycle versus the motorcar. Again, I pray in aid the noble Earl, Lord Snowdon, who has made himself an expert in this field, and who described the tricycle in the same debate. He said:
"The tricycle is still being produced, and it is made largely of foreign parts—unstable, easily upsettable, unreliable, flimsy, inflammable; still without a jack or spare wheel; without bumpers, without an antiroll bar; with the petrol tank still just in front of the driver, the interior bristling with sharp levers, its steering column non-collapsible, the internal noise insupportable, and with its perfectly appailing accident record."—[Official Report, 10/4/74; col. 1264.]
This is the instrument we seek to replace by motorcars.
When the Sharp Report first came out, there were members of the Disabled Drivers' Association—disabled people themselves—who were afraid that they might lose their tricycle before they got a motorcar. There were others who were so accustomed to the invalid tricycle that they even preferred it to the novelty of seeking to learn to drive a motorcar. But as the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, has pointed out, in BLESMA practically everybody who has a choice selects the car rather than the tricycle, and I have been asked by the Disabled Drivers' Association to say that it is now firm in its demand for the motorcar as opposed to the tricycle—not only for disabled men; not only for disabled drivers, but, as the noble Baroness pointed out in her Report, for disabled men who need somebody to drive them in such a car.
My Lords, I believe that this debate is one of a number of steps forward in the long history of making adequate provision for the disabled, and especially
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now, in the field of mobility for the disabled. We may have to move gradually, but I believe that this debate, as are others before it, is helping to create the climate for when those moves will take place. I know that in the Minister who is to reply to the debate we have one who is a friend of the disabled, and I look forward to hearing him.
4.37 p.m.
Lord SOMERS: My Lords, I apologise for rising when my name is not on the list, especially in a short debate. I have timed the speeches so far and we are not bound to finish it before 5.40 p.m.; and I shall be very brief. This has been a very important debate and it was the subject of a great deal of discussion in the Council of the Institute of Advanced Motorists, to which I belong. A short time ago—I think it was in the spring of last year—there was a rally of drivers of three-wheeled invalid vehicles somewhere in the South-East of London—I cannot remember exactly where. I was persuaded by one of the members of the Institute to attend the rally. Previous to that time I had felt very much like my noble friend Lady Sharp about the three-wheeler. I was only too anxious to see it off the roads altogether. But when I went to the rally, I must confess I was tremendously impressed by it. One of the things that impressed me most was the fact that no two of the vehicles are exactly alike. They are all completely tailor-made to the needs of their particular drivers. There was present one pathetic little driver, who could not have been much more than 3 feet 6 inches tall, and the seat of her vehicle had been raised and the controls brought forward so that it was perfectly easy for her to handle her car.
One must remember that these cars have certain features that even an adapted Mini or normal car would not provide. First, most of them—not all of them, but I should say a good 90 per cent. of them—have handlebar steering instead of wheel steering. This is to enable the driver to keep both his hands on the steering and still have the controls under his fingers. That would not be so with a wheel; and, of course, if you were to adapt a handlebar to a four-wheeled car, it would be so heavy that a great many invalid drivers could not handle it.

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There is also the point that a great many severely handicapped drivers— those who are perhaps very deformed and who do not like to have other people with them too much—prefer to be on their own. I admit that it is quite true that there are many handicapped drivers who want passengers with them and who, perhaps, even need passengers with them. Therefore, I am entirely in agreement with the noble Baroness, Lady Darcy de Knayth, when she urges the need for a three-fold choice. This I think is absolutely right. There should be a choice according to the degree of disablement. If one is only slightly disabled and strong enough to drive a four-wheeled car, then well and good; but there are many who are not. This car also has been criticised for its lack of stability; but most of them do not do much more than 30 m.p.h. and stability is not really a very great element at that speed. I do not think that any driver would try to round a sharp corner at 30 m.p.h. Therefore, I think that this three-wheeler still has a very necessary place on the market; but I also think, with the noble Baroness, Lady Darcy de Knayth, that there should be a choice for those who are able to drive something better.
4.41 p.m.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, first of all, I should like to express my gratitude to all those who have taken part for their brevity. I say that because I want to take up perhaps a little more time than most noble Lords who have spoken in the debate, so that I can discharge a responsibility that the noble Baroness put upon me; that is, to set out in very precise terms Government thinking on this matter. I am grateful to her. She was very persuasive and, if I may say so, very moderate. I came to the Front Bench not expecting her to be so and I wondered whether I should be able to remain moderate. But this has been a very valuable debate and one which has taken place in a low key. Because of the importance of it, because there are so many people in your Lordships' House who are either disabled now or who, in the past, have been very disabled, it is important that we deal with this matter not only with a great deal of sincerity but also with a great deal of
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knowledge—and I think that has been present this afternoon.
My Lords, I hope that I shall have time to deal with the individual points which Members of your Lordships' House have raised today. Many have specifically asked to be dealt with. But before answering, may I make a general statement on Government policy on mobility for disabled people. I want to stress that our thinking about this matter starts from the point of view of the individual disabled person, for whom everyone in this House wants to do something—not of one section, not of another, but of every disabled person. All those, I think, are the concern of your Lordships. Let us get this quite clear: policy starts with people and not with hardware. That has been our starting point ever since we first grappled with these problems as a Government a year ago.
When the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, made her valuable and—and if she will not mind my saying so—closely-reasoned Report which was published in March of last year as one of the first acts of the present Government, the noble Baroness recommended that if a person were otherwise eligible but could not drive, he should have a car if he could nominate a person to drive it for him. The noble Baroness recognised that this would enormously increase the cost and that she had been asked to have regard to the resources available. It may well be that she was perhaps not able—because of the limitations placed upon her—to say exactly what she wanted to say. I do not know. Her recommendation—to keep the costs within bounds—was that eligibility for the future should be restricted to people who needed a car to get to work or to enable them to run a home. As I understand the Report, Government spending and support were to be switched, from people who were too disabled to work or to help support their families, to those (including many less severely-disabled people) who were useful in these ways.
I am sure that the noble Baroness will not take this amiss; but we found that criterion quite unacceptable. It is a functional criterion, which divides the disabled people into two groups, the useful and the useless. You cannot have this in a fair society; you cannot even consider it in a fair society. If you have disabled people, then their wants and needs are,

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to a large extent, identical. You have to provide for them, but to provide a little extra for those who need a little more. The terms of reference of the noble Baroness were clearly set out; and, with respect, she had to work within those terms of reference. The Government firmly rejected that policy of increased help to the economically useful and what amounted to virtually nothing for the rest. I believe that there is widespread support for this view not only among the disabled but among the community.
This means that for all its value as an analysis of the problem and as a source of wise comment on many matters other than road vehicles, the Report does not get us very far on this central problem. This is not a criticism. This is how I see it. We had, I think, to start from scratch. The vehicle scheme benefits only a small proportion of the people who could qualify if the degree of disablement were the only criterion. A very large number cannot drive but would be in a position to nominate a driver, and a further large number can neither drive nor have they anyone they could nominate as a driver. Their position must be very carefully considered. By bringing in one of these excluded groups, the disabled people who cannot drive but who could nominate a driver, we should clearly increase the cost. Neither the Government nor anyone else has the detailed information about disabled people to make precise costings; but the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, estimated in her Report that, even with the age limit at 70, the numbers and cost would be in the region of three times those applicable to National Health Service clients in the present scheme.
Yet even by spending so much more money on vehicles we should still have left out those who cannot drive and are not in a position to nominate a driver. These are the people we believe most at risk of being socially isolated by their difficulties—and this is a matter which concerns us. If a vehicle scheme could be used to help people in this group it would have pushed up the cost still further. But a vehicle cannot help them. This is a fundamental limitation on the "hardware"approach, and this is something we must always have in the forefront of our minds.
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The Government were firmly resolved not to absorb all the resources which could be made available and still leave out this group whose need of mobility help is arguably the greatest of all. We therefore turned to a cash benefit as the main way of helping severely disabled people to be more mobile. It is estimated that it would bring in about 100,000 more people by 1978–79. I believe the noble Baroness mentioned the figure of 150,000. These figures must be compared with the 50,000 beneficiaries under the vehicle scheme—twice as many on our figure; three times as many on the figure given by the noble Baroness. The estimated cost will be more than double the total spending, cash and vehicles together. I believe that this is far more radical—it is far more expensive and far more radical—than anything that has ever been suggested in the past for disabled people. It is to this mast that the present Government nail their flag and they are not going to bring it down very easily.
The introduction of a cash benefit has been warmly welcomed by representatives of disabled people, but many of them have said: "Why cannot we have a choice of cash or invalid three-wheeler or car?" This is a perfectly reasonable question to put to any Government The objection—let me be quite frank about it; one cannot hide these facts these days—is partly one of cost. Cars for all those eligible who want them, with a cash equivalent for others, would bring the total cost to far more than the Government, indeed any responsible Government, could plan for at the present moment. There are many unmet needs, as your Lordships know, in our social services. We are reminded of them week after week. What the Government tried to do yesterday did not find favour in some parts of your Lordships' House because the benefits did not go far enough. But there is nothing between us on this. We know it. But we have only a certain amount of cloth to deal with, and there are, as I have said, many unmet needs in our social services, including particularly disabled people themselves.
Mobility is very important but it is not the only need of the disabled, and we must keep a proper sense of priorities in this matter. In face of the many

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pressing and justified claims for improvement, there is necessarily a limit to the amount we can devote to mobility. But we are going to increase that very substantially. If I remember rightly, the recommendation in Lady Sharp's Report said that the provision of cars would cost something like £3 million a year. If there are 100,000 people who are not in the scheme at the present moment but are going to be brought into this scheme and be given a mobility allowance of something like £4 a week, this is going to cost £20 million. If the noble Baroness's figure of 150,000 is right the cost will be £30 million a year—in one case six times as much, or, if the higher figure is right, 10 times as much as was envisaged in Lady Sharp's Report— although it was restricting cars to particular groups.
I want to say something about the invalid three-wheeler which is really the main subject of this debate. I make no apology for first describing the broad policies at some length, because the three-wheeler must be seen in the context of the Government's policy. The Government Statement of 13th September 1974, to which the noble Lord, Lord Airedale, made reference, made it clear that it is the Government's intention to continue to make these vehicles available. It follows therefore (I think this will answer a question put by a noble Lord) that the supply arrangements must stand, including placing contracts for vehicles as and when necessary. There are three main reasons for this. First, many people want them. We must understand that this is so. It is all very well for it to be said that disabled people do not want them. If I had the time I could convince your Lordships that there is a vast army of disabled people who have three-wheelers and want to keep them. Last Friday week I was in Shropshire visiting a training centre for the disabled where there were 160 badly disabled people. Before I left—apropos of nothing at all; the subject had not been mentioned—the medical superintendent said to me: "You are not going to take the three-wheelers away, are you?" I asked why not, and he replied: "You do not know the harm it would do psychologically to the young men and young women I have here if they were not able to propel themselves." Do not let us think that this vehicle is
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so awful and so bad that the vast majority of the disabled want to "get shot of it". This is not so at all.
Secondly, it appears to us that there are people for whom a specialised invalid vehicle can bring independent mobility which cannot be achieved in any other way. Invalid three-wheelers are used by people with a wide range of disabilities—the person who has completely lost the use of his legs but who otherwise has full normal capabilities; the kind of disabled person critics seem to have mainly in mind in contending that hand controlled cars are the complete answer. But they are not our only clients; they are not society's only disabled people. Indeed, they are not nowadays a majority of all those being provided with vehicles. Many people, for example, have lost their ability to walk by reason of degenerative arthritis affecting hip or knee joints; there is generalised rheumatoid arthritis; there is spondylitis and a whole range of other disabilities. People with these conditions have to some degree lost the ability to bend their joints. Some are quite unable to bend their joints at all. If they are tall they may be quite unable to get into the driving seat of an ordinary car. Three-wheelers are so constructed that people in that position can get in them and drive, not sitting down but virtually standing up. They could not do that with a car.
Quite apart from the fact that to provide the controls on a private car would be considerably more costly, it would be impossible to adapt some private cars to meet the physical conditions of many of our disabled people. Many other users of the vehicles suffer from diseases of the central nervous system, causing marked debility, or slowing down of the reaction times and co-ordination. Some of those who are most severely disabled in these ways could not safely manage a vehicle with the performance of a motor car—and, I would readily admit, not even a vehicle with the performance of the latest model, the Model 70 three-wheeler which is being used at the present moment. However, they can be provided with an electrically-powered version of the three-wheeler.
A further substantial group of users are those who have lost the functions of

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both legs and one arm as well. Many such people can control perfectly competently a three-wheeler with tiller steering and special controls, but they could not use a steering wheel. For many of these people the choice is quite clear: either an invalid three-wheeler or no driving at all. Whatever may be hypothetically possible, with unlimited financial and technological resources, there is no practicable way of getting them on to the road in an adapted car—at least, not at the present moment, having regard to some of the disabilities. That, I submit, is a powerful reason for keeping the three-wheeler where we can do so much more for them.
There is yet another cogent and important reason. We know that many users value the three-wheeler for its ability to go where cars cannot go. You cannot take a car into a shopping precinct or into a pedestrian precinct, but you may be able to take a three-wheeler there. There are many ways in which a three-wheeler can be used when one cannot use a motor car. This is, of course, an important consideration to people who cannot get out and walk, or whose walking range is very limited, and it is becoming of increasing relevance as restrictions upon vehicle access are extended.
May I make one other thing clear. The Government do not see the provision of cars and the possibility of abandoning the three-wheeler as linked matters. I have stated the Government's reasons for not providing cars. They are concerned with cash being the main benefit. Any question of dropping the three-wheeler would be a quite separate matter. We do see a place for the specialised vehicle. The Government's role in providing it is essentially the same as in the provision of other highly specialised needs of disabled people, such as artificial limbs and wheelchairs. The three-wheeler is an elaborate aid; it is not a car. It is an elaborate aid in the same way as artificial limbs form part of the body to help it to function.
The Motion that we are debating refers to the uncertainty about the future of the vehicle service. I am not quite sure what is meant here, because the Government's Statement last September of their intention to continue to provide three-wheelers
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was, I think, clear enough. However, if there is any uncertainty, I hope that the amplification of that Statement which I have just given will help to dispel it.
That brings us to the question, what kind of specialised vehicle? Here I must go, just a little, into technical characteristics. Steering is one important problem. The technical requirement here is that it must be possible to move the I steering from lock to lock by means of arm movements which may be limited in both power and range. It must be possible to accomplish this when the driver cannot gain the mechanical advantage of using several turns of the steering wheel. Most invalid three-wheelers, even though they can be fitted with steering wheels— and a small number of them are so fitted —have either handlebars or tillers which are operated by one arm, because these are more suited to the driver's capabilities. Such devices would simply not provide the leverage, to use a technical term in what is probably a hopelessly untechnical way, to operate the steering of a conventional car, with two front wheels carrying about half, or even more, of the total weight of the vehicle.
The technical solution we have is the invalid three-wheeler which is a small, light vehicle, with a single, lightly loaded wheel at the front. With such a vehicle, stability poses unavoidable problems. The Government recognise this. These problems cannot be solved simply by keeping the building of the vehicle low to the ground. As I described it a moment or two ago, many disabled people need a fairly high and upright seating position, and one which will facilitate transfer from a wheel chair. This, and the need to provide for special groups—for example, people who cannot bend at the hips—makes it necessary for the door to be considerably higher than in normal production cars. Because of these two factors—steering requirement and height —a specialised invalid vehicle cannot be made as stable as a four-wheeled car. It can be overturned more easily, and its handling is more affected by cross-winds. These are the unavoidable drawbacks which go with the necessary characteristics of a vehicle which is designed for the special need the Government are seeking to meet.
This does not mean that the Government are complacent in any respect about

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the safety problems. We realise the difficulties, and we are aware that we must always concentrate on the safety factor. We are producing, and studying jointly with the Department of the Environment, analyses of the accidents to Ministry vehicles—by that I mean cars and three-wheelers—by reference to such factors as the type of vehicle, the type of steering, and the age, the disability and the degree of experience of the driver. We hope that lessons from this study will help us to enable these vehicles to be used in the future with far greater safety. We are not in any sense going to try to keep these figures dark. Let me make that perfectly clear. When this study is complete, the findings will be made available, and the Department will invite representatives of the disabled to discuss the findings with the Department.
At this stage I do not want to say much about the analysis of accidents, because we are in the middle of the exercise. However, the Model 70—which is acknowledged, even by its critics, as being an advance in every way, including handling characteristics relevant to safety, on its predecessors—nevertheless has an apparently greater liability to accidents than the older models. This is something we are looking into. Indeed, the older models have a substantially lower incidence of accidents relative to the number on issue than either the Model 70 or the cars which the Department provides for war pensioners. There is some indication here that a very important part is played by the disabled driver who is new to driving, or to driving the particular vehicle he has, because all the new drivers are being given Model 70s, whereas virtually all the drivers of older three-wheelers are people who are used to them and know how to handle them. The factors to be studied are complex and, as I have already assured the House, when we have concluded our investigation and research, the findings will be made known.
There is one other point I wish to make. The Model 70 is the result of a direct line of development of earlier models, aimed at improving the vehicle in ways which had long been felt to be desirable. It may be that in some ways this was over-simplified. The Department aimed at a vehicle which incorporated automatic transmission to make
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it very much easier to control, as compared with earlier models, and had better all-round performance. That in itself necessitated the provision of a better and more powerful engine, and brought the vehicle nearer to the standards of performance which people have become accustomed to expect from cars. This has not. only made the vehicle capable of control by those with disabilities which preclude them from driving the earlier model, but has also invited comparisons to the detriment of the three-wheeler. But bearing in mind the special purpose of these vehicles, we now feel that the main emphasis in development should be in making a vehicle capable of safe use by people who, because of their disability, are near the limit of ability to manage even a specialised vehicle. This may well entail deliberate acceptance of limitations on performance, in the sense in which we apply that term to the normal motor car. The Ministers directly responsible are keeping these points in mind in planning for the future. There is a good deal of discussion going on at the moment with various individuals and organisations, to see whether it can be improved still further.
I will try very quickly, if I may have your Lordships' indulgence, to deal with one or two points which have arisen out of the debate. I want to emphasise, as a result of something said by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, that the Central Council for the Disabled has set up a Working Party after consultation with the Minister for the Disabled, to consider a vast number of matters relating to the three-wheeler and the mobility allowance which we are bringing in fairly shortly. I think it was the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, who asked whether, when the mobility allowance is payable, the three-wheeler driver will be able to opt for the mobility allowance and give up his three-wheeler. I understand that he will.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, for his comments and observations, and I suppose it is because I largely agreed with him that I thought it was a most balanced speech. But he brought to this debate this afternoon a tremendous amount of knowledge of the subject—certainly, a great deal more than I myself possess—and he was speaking from knowledge of this matter. I am grateful to him for his support. I should

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like to congratulate my noble friend Lord Wallace of Coslany—I am sorry that he has to have my back and not my front, although there are many people who prefer that—and to say how delighted we all are with his maiden speech. It is quite clear that he has considerable experience in the field of social affairs. This is one matter in which we are often not divided but joined, and is very much a function which shows your Lordship' House at its best.
I want to say to my noble friend Lady Masham of Ilton that, strangely enough, we are already looking into the question of the repair of wheelchairs, and we will look into the point about ambulance men to see what the situation is. I think she asked why, when we chose a car, we chose a Mini. I hope I am right about this but, first, there is the cost factor— the Mini is cheaper. Also, I think I am right in saying that it is the only British small car available with automatic transmission. If I am wrong about that I will write to the noble Baroness.
The noble Lord, Lord Airedale, raised the question of the document. I am grateful to him for having done so, because it gives me an opportunity of explaining to your Lordships—in case you felt that you had been badly dealt with—that the statement was, in fact, made by the Secretary of State for Social Services to the Press on 13th September 1974. It was not a statement made in Parliament; it was made outside as a corollary to a Command White Paper entitled Social Security Provision for the Chronically Sick and Disabled People. We had to publish that rather quickly and I would accept any strictures from the noble Lord. It should have gone into this document. It was our intention to put it in, but the time factor made it impossible and so my right honourable friend made the statement to the Press and my information is that 20 copies of it were sent to the House of Lords. Where they went to I do not know.
The noble Lord raised the position of passengers and asked whether a driver would be in breach of his policy. It so happens that the Department is already in touch with insurance companies and will discuss with them what can be done. The noble Lord also raised the question of the flat rate. The only reply I can
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give is that we are anxious to avoid introducing anything which appears to be a means test and we feel that the flat rate is perhaps better. With regard to the 4 a week, there is nothing magic about that figure. I think it is a compromise figure which represents an amount which can make a useful contribution, and relates tolerably to cash benefits and payments that one finds in other fields.
I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Darcy de Knayth, not only for her qualified approval—I think it was qualified approval—of what the Government are doing and of the scheme, but also for her suggestions which I should like to study. I know she is anxious that I should say something about when the mobility allowance is to be introduced. It will be introduced in the forthcoming financial year 1975–76, but it will have to be phased in and obviously we cannot include in that year the whole 150,000. That would be quite impossible. If the noble Baroness asks me what kind of yardstick we are going to apply at this stage, I can say only that it is being discussed with people who are able to advise the Department about who shall come first, second and third. I do not think I can go beyond that at the moment.
Lord ABERDARE: My Lords, does that mean that we shall be having legislation this Session?
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, there will be legislation and it should be this Session. For a moment, I thought the noble Lord meant before Easter. The answer to his question is, Yes. I would like to deal with a whole number of other questions, but I think I have gone on long enough. There is another debate and an Unstarred Question, and I hope your Lordships will forgive me for dealing only with the Government's attitude towards this subject and for not answering all the questions which have been put.
Baroness SHARP: My Lords, I shall not keep your Lordships more than a very few minutes. The noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, said that the Government had decided that the first and most important thing was the mobility allowance, available to a much larger number of people than ever trikes had been. I think we all accept and welcome the allowance. In fact, if it had been operat-

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ing when I was reporting, it would have enabled me to write a different kind of Report in some ways. But what we are talking about now is the vehicle service which the Government still have, and which apparently they propose to go on with on the present unsatisfactory basis. That is really the issue; and my contention is that the introduction of this welcome allowance gives the Government an opportunity to make a more sensible, rational and, I would say, humane disposition of such resources as they are able to spare for vehicles.
The noble Lord accused me of having in my Report divided the disabled who should get cars into two categories; the economically useful and the useless. It was, as I think he admitted, a fairly offensive way to describe what I said. What I was saying, in fact, was that since one must make the choice—and it is, the Government's responsibility to make choices—it should be between those to whom the vehicle is most useful, and those to whom it is not so useful, although still much desired.
My Lords, what do the Government do? They also divide those who can have vehicles into two groups; those who can drive and those who cannot. Is that humane? This is a great part of what we are talking about; the priorities one should have, trying to be humane, admitting and recognising that one cannot spend much on the vehicle part of the service, and should not—at least not yet. I submit that the present way of doing it is just about as bad a way as one can choose. And the sole reason is that the Government dare not make decisions about the right priorities for the car. It is difficult; but they have the chance now with this mobility allowance. They ought to face this, and not go on as they are.
My Lords, what is the argument advanced? That there are some disabled who cannot drive a car and can only drive a trike. There are a few, but only a few. To test this, let the Government adopt the suggestion made by some speakers—that a choice should be offered of car, trike, or cash. Then they will find out what is the preference for the trike or the car. It is trying to pull the wool over our eyes to say that preference for the trike is a big argument. It is a difficult one. It would
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be nice to think we could provide a specialised vehicle for the few; maybe it is possible maybe not. But the real point is that most of the disabled are asking for a car, and a car is cheaper. I think the Government will hear more and more about this until something is done. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

THE BRITISH AIRCRAFT INDUSTRY
5.22 p.m.
The Earl of KINNOULL The Earl of KINNOULL rose to call attention to the current state of the British aircraft industry; and to move for Papers. The noble Earl said: My Lords, if one was invited to comment on the present system of short debates in this House, which I feel it would be both possibly imprudent and ungracious of me to do, the comment would be that it resembles a popular method once used by students when confronted with an enormous list of unpaid bills. In that case, any aggrieved creditors who indicated by letter their growing impatience would be immediately threatened that unless they changed their tune, their particular bill would not even go into the next month's ballot. I mention this only to illustrate that sometimes the timing of these debates, or subjects under discussion in a short debate, may appear somewhat in the lap of providence. But as is the case with so much of the mystical workings of this House, I believe the timing of this debate on the state of the British aircraft industry to be remarkably fortuitous. I refer, of course, to the one dominating subject of the industry that could influence the whole future structure of the industry, namely, the proposals of the Government to nationalise the airframe industry. For this reason, I am particularly grateful to other noble Lords who have indicated their intention to take part, and particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Briginshaw, for choosing this debate in which to make his maiden speech. I am sure we are all looking forward to listening to him.
Although the nationalisation issue will be the dominating flavour in this debate, I hope we shall be able to cover all the other current topics that make up the state of the industry—the performance of

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the industry in comparison with our foreign competitors, the success of the current projects, the plans for future projects, and the policy on continuing international collaboration. In all these matters, and others, I believe we have the opportunity to probe deeply into the brief of the noble Lord, Lord Beswick. I am sure the House will agree that in the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, we have a Minister who speaks on aviation matters with an accepted authority, a long experience and a well earned reputation in industry.
The Consultative Document published in January, setting out the proposals of the Government to nationalise the airframe industry, is a subject, I suspect, that this House can discuss with a greater degree of detachment than the other place. The issue of nationalisation, whether it concerns the airframe industry or the shipbuilding industry, I believe can be separated into two distinct parts—the political objective and the commercial need. As to the political objective, I am personally totally and fundamentally opposed to it, not only because it strikes at the way of life of our country and the system of our individual effort and choice, but also because I believe that unless this new giant corporation in its early days is organised with extreme dexterity, there is a very real fear that it could fracture the impetus of this industry and become an unwieldy, unmanageable metamorphosis in the same mould as the now limping giant, British Leyland.
As to the commercial need, the frailty of the case put forward in the Consultative Document and, indeed, the unanimous reaction of industry to that document is, I believe, evidence enough to show that no convincing case has been made out to justify the proposals of the Government. Indeed, the priority given to this policy by the Government at a time of acute national economic crisis I find wholly baffling. Is it really in the national interest to seek from the Treasury precious funds in the form of compensation, which could exceed £100 million, to buy out two highly successful companies at a time when the Treasury must be inundated with urgent requests for financial assistance from industrial companies and, indeed, from local authorities with their projects of housing, education
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and health? Surely these should have priority. I find the timing here most extraordinary. I hope that the noble Lord will be able to clarify for us why the Government have chosen this time to introduce these proposals.
As to the Consultative Document itself, the House will recall that it cites the Plowden Committee Report published in 1965, which looked into the aircraft industry. It cited the Report as recommending—and I quote from the Consultative Document which tends to quote from the Plowden Report:
"That the Government should take a majority shareholding in BAC and in the airframe and guided weapons interests of HawkerSiddeley."
As I am sure other noble Lords have done, I have taken the trouble to re-read the recommendations of the Plowden Committee and the paragraphs referred to in the Consultative Document. Nowhere have I found either the wording or the implication of majority holding or, more bluntly, nationalisation. What the noble Lord, Lord Plowden, recommended, as I understand it, was a Government investment on the lines of BP, a degree of public investment, not a majority holding or nationalisation. It is perhaps a small point in this debate, but I should be grateful, when the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, comes to reply, if he could advise us where the Plowden Committee recommended nationalisation. If it does not do so, I fear the Consultative Document has inadvertently been misleading.
If one assumes that despite all the political and commercial opposition to the Government's plans to nationalise, nevertheless the Government forge ahead, and that the Aircraft Corporation of Great Britain becomes reality, there are, I believe, a number of points and indeed assurances on which I am sure other noble Lords will wish to press the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, today. I should like to raise with the noble Lord two aspects particularly mentioned in the Consultative Document.
The first aspect is the need for a greater degree of public accountability. I am sure this concept will be welcomed by everyone, but the thinking that only nationalisation improves public accountability really seems illogical. It must,

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surely, be up to Parliament to legislate what information should be made available both in the public and the private sectors. The noble Lord will know that in America, through the CAB, the public accountability is far ahead of the British system. Detailed information is published every month on such aspects as the punctuality of, for example, the PAN AM service, the depreciation policy for their aircraft, and, indeed, their military charter rates. If a Member of Parliament went to British Airways and asked for similar information, I suspect that he would be told to go and whistle. I find that the present system of public accountability—certainly in the public sector, in the nationalised bodies—is not something of which either the Government or Parliament should be proud. I hope the noble Lord will be able to say that the whole matter of public accountability in this area is being reviewed.
The second aspect I would briefly touch en—which again is set out in the Consultative Document—is the future policy on industrial democracy. I say "briefly ", because I am sure other noble Lords whose experience far exceeds mine in this field will be commenting on this matter. I do not believe anyone in his right mind objects to the improvement in industrial democracy, as obviously it can lead only to welcome improvement in industrial relations. But the brief point I wish to put to the noble Lord is this: we have seen his right honourable friend in the last few months freely expressing his new and often radical, and no doubt highly popular, theories, particularly at the Filton Works of BAC. He is floating ideas, based, I presume, on the words of the Consultative Document, on increasing the democratic participation of aircraft workers in decision-making at all levels of the industry. He is floating ideas which have gone on occasion far in excess of this. The criticism one hears—and I think it is valid—is that the noble Lord's right honourable friend tends to float ideas way beyond the practicalities of running a highly advanced aircraft industry. Indeed, some of the ideas would be perhaps more suited to a collective farm. The fear expressed is that the words of the Minister—and he is never short of words—may in time prove wholly mis-
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leading and could even prove counterproductive to the sensible advancement of industrial democracy.
My Lords, I would ask for one more assurance from the noble Lord on the question of nationalisation. It concerns the many thousands of equipment companies in the aircraft industry. I am sure that he will know that they view their future with a great deal of uncertainty. They fear that the hand of nationalisation will spread to themselves in due course. Such uncertainty, I suggest to the noble Lord, is very harmful, and I hope he will today be able to give an assurance that the Government have no intention of extending their nationalisation plans beyond the airframe industries.
Turning from the nationalisation issue to the industry itself, the impression one forms both of the present state of the industry and of what the future holds seems to add up to what I would suggest is a somewhat conflicting picture. At the present time we have a number of projects in production and close to production, which indicates that the level of the order book over the next five years is very encouraging. We have Concorde, of course—a unique supersonic civil project due to be in service at the end of this year or early next year—which will place our industry and the French industry in a highly competitive position for years. Thank goodness we still have that project! We have the MRCA, a project far larger in financial terms than the Concorde, still under development, but due to go into production in very large numbers. We have Jaguar already in production and in service, and we have Harrier already in production and in service. Indeed we have Harrier in the Royal Air Force and, of course, in the US Marine Corps. We have the Hawk Trainer aircraft under development. And on top of these, we cannot forget the RB211, servicing all the TriStar sales along with the other Rolls-Royce engines. Undoubtedly, all of these add up I believe, to a healthy order book at the present time. To prove this we see the record export figures for 1974 of some £620 million, recently announced by the SBAC. I hope the noble Lord can indicate whether his Department agree with the SBAC figures on this point.
The gloss of all this good news and these figures is, I suggest to your Lordships, temporarily dulled by the news that the French aircraft industry—half our size in manpower—has apparently achieved export figures last year not far short of £550 million. Again, I ask the noble Lord whether he can confirm this from his Department's information. Whereas the immediate future of the industry appears bright, the picture changes when one delves into what is in the pipeline for future projects. Will further Government development support be coming forward for the upgrading of the RB211 engine to meet the 747 Jumbo Jet requirement? Will the upgrading of the Spey engine be coming forward for the possible stretched version of the BAC 1–11? What is the future of the advanced Harrier development? Are we to allow this brilliant concept simply to die or be taken over by the Americans? What are the plans for the research and development programme to be awarded to the MRCA variant, the air defence version, which one understands the RAF are anxious to obtain? And what future collaborative ventures are in the mind of the Government?
I realise that it is not a propitious moment to be seeking a vast research and development programme from the Government. Nevertheless, as the noble Lord knows, unless the seed corn is sown now the harvest in eight to 10 years' time will begin to look a very thin crop. What is the future, as we see it, of new projects? Undoubtedly, the greatest problem is the civil market. Given the civil market with its world recession—the growth of airline businesses having declined—there undoubtedly is on the civil side a rather gloomy picture. But on the military side we have some very hopeful news. We see that BAC have an order book of over £900 million on military sales. This is very encouraging. I hope the Government will be looking in this area particularly for further projects to be supported.
Turning briefly to certain specific projects, I should like to ask the noble Lord what efforts have been made by the Government, and indeed, by the French Government, to encourage the Jaguar to be considered as an alternative replacement to the Starfighter for the four
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nation order, the four nations, of course, being Sweden, the Netherlands, and so on. One understands that this replacement order could come to something over 500 aircraft, and clearly it is of considerable importance.
I hope the noble Lord will again be able to advise us what is the up to date position on the maritime Harrier for the Royal Navy. Will this matter be dealt with in the next Defence White Paper? I believe this to be a decision very vital to the welfare of Hawker Siddeley. Perhaps the noble Lord will also bring us up to date, briefly, on Concorde, on how that development is going, and tell us when the endurance proving flights are due to start. In moving this Motion, I am very conscious of the fact that the real value of this debate will flow from the speeches of the noble Lords to follow. 1 trust that the debate will prove of value, for the value of the aircraft industry to the nation in both defence and export terms is inestimable. Its record is one of achievement, and nothing politicians do should disturb its future growth. My Lords, I beg to move for Papers.
5.41 p.m.
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, it might be for the convenience of the House if I made a brief intervention now on the public ownership issue. With the permission of the House, I then propose replying at the end to the points that the noble Earl himself made outside of that one subject, and I can maybe at the same time answer similar points raised by other noble Lords. May I first say how genuinely indebted I personally am, as I am sure the House is, to the noble Earl for giving us this opportunity of discussing the aircraft industry, and for the manner in which he introduced the debate. As he said, it is timely; the debate can form part of the consultative process, and I agree with him that it is possible to discuss these matters with a degree of detachment somewhat different from another place.
Having said that, I would say that I think the noble Earl went on to exaggerate a little the effect of the transfer of ownership upon our present strained economy. I agree with him that in the transition period there will be extra calls upon management, but there really is no new demand upon national resources stemming simply from the fact of transferring

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from one set of owners to another. The consultative document has been criticised for its form as well as for its content, but it has stimulated a great deal of valuable comment. I have here a substantial file of comments from employer organisations, and I have a similarly weighty file from some 25 employee organisations. In addition, there have been something over 30 different submissions from individuals, professional organisations and similar informed and authoritative bodies.
It may be no surprise if I say that the employee organisations welcome public ownership, while the employer companies and associations deplore it. I should add, however, that while the CBI, sadly in its present mood, rely more on strength of language than on reasoned argument, the companies immediately concerned with the transfer of ownership, while being quite firm in their opposition of principle, at the same time offer constructive advice and pose pertinent questions which must be carefully considered and, clearly, further discussion with them will be needed.
I have heard it said, and on one occasion I myself suggested some years ago, that the possible solution to the public ownership problem is what one might call the BP type compromise. But the scene has changed, and I think the argument now supports the policy which Her Majesty's Government propose to take. It has changed in so far as project costs have increased and the need for Government funding has become even more important. It has changed in so far as collaborative projects have involved more Government-to-Govemment negotiation. The tendency towards consolidation of national resources in this industry and the inability of the domestic civil and military market to support two major producers of airframes or guided weapons have meant that private ownership, even in part, is less easy to justify. A monopoly under any ownership has incipient dangers, but under even part private ownership those dangers surely are increased.
Moreover there is a shift; of opinion in professional management in that ownership of capital is less important than its availability in adequate quantities, granted always—and I shall return to this
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—that there is a clearly defined responsibility. Then there is the remarkable evidence that the bulk of those who earn their living in this industry feel that outright public ownership offers greater opportunities for a profitable and satisfying future. In addition there is this public accountability argument, but I personally am inclined to agree that this is much less simple than it seems. Of course the CBI, the SBAC, and the noble Earl just now are right when they say that there is accountability today, but it involves checking and monitoring, possible inquests of the Public Accounts Committee, and altogether more negative involvement than is desirable.
I believe the Plowden Committee got nearer to the truth of this issue when they spoke of the need to remove detailed technical and financial control, and to inject the public interest at an earlier stage of decision-making; namely, at board level. It can be argued that with more complete ownership than Plowden envisaged—and I am not seeking to try to suggest that Plowden was suggesting nationalisation—there should be more delegated responsibility. That was their argument in favour of this public participation, and certainly if there is the same apparatus of Government supervision and control as now, superimposed upon a publicly-owned corporation, then we shall have failed. I agree with the noble Earl, too, that proper public accountability must mean more openness of information —to Parliament to those who work in the industry and to the taxpaying public generally. Our proposed system of planning agreements, for industry generally and not only for the aircraft industry, is based on the proposition that open discussion and exchange of views with the Government, in which the work force of the company or corporation can participate, can mean practical economic advantage.
Having said that, I must refer to the criticism made and the fears expressed about the degree of power to be vested in the Secretary of State. It will be seen from what I have already said that this is a matter which must be considered very carefully, though I think the fears are not well based. May I offer two relevant considerations to support this view, and I offer one of them with a degree of modesty, because I see the noble Lord,

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Lord Nelson of Stafford, chairman of one of the bodies to which I am going to refer, sitting before me. Whereas with most companies the intervention of shareholders is minimal, in the case of BAC, with their most sophisticated corporate shareholders—namely, Vickers and GEC —their powers have been used effectively; and I imagine there is much the same combination of financial discipline and constructive comment from the Hawker-Siddeley Group towards the HSA and HSD. These shareholders will be changing, but it would be a mistake to assume that their intervention will be increasing.
The second point is that a measure of so-called Government intervention is and will be unavoidable. It is absurd to think that projects like the Concorde or the MRCA or SEPECAT, or indeed the HS 146, can be taken independently of economic, social or defence matters in which Her Majesty's Government are so clearly involved. So while I agree that we have to recognise that successful management must mean maximum possible independence and initiative, there are important facts of life which place ultimate responsibility upon the sponsoring Minister. It is this that will be reflected in the legislation.
In this context of Government-corporation relationship, the development of industrial democracy can be significant. The more successful the development of this concept, the more constructive the participation of the workforce, and the more complete the agreement between all categories of workers, then in my view, the less excuse or need there will be for Government intervention. The comments on this section of the Consultative Document on industrial democracy make absolutely fascinating reading. From the far Right to the far Left there is complete agreement that worker participation, good industrial relations, indeed industrial democracy, is a good thing; indeed, the noble Earl said that no one in his right mind would oppose it. But from that point of agreement opinions differ. The employers, with one voice, say that the present position is satisfactory, and the employees, with one voice, say that it is not. There is no doubt in my mind that we are now ready, in this progressive industry more than most, to take a sig-
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nificant step forward in this sensitive but highly stimulating field of human relations.
The Document refers to the need for organic development, and my understanding of that is that one cannot impose by legislation a new pattern of human relations: it has to grow, and grow freely but without artificial forcing. There are those on the Left who see the way forward through worker representation on the policy-making board—something along the lines of what is already happening on the Continent. There are others who wish to experiment in other ways, and see the objective as an elected Workers Council of Control, which would, in their words, hire the management and have the power to fire. My own experience as an elected Member of Parliament leads me to think that a capability to dismiss as well as appoint encourages a proper degree of respect. I have also seen evidence, however, of a readiness to curry favour with the electors which was not always consistent with sound judgment.
Moreover, it surprises me, at any rate, that there are those who so keenly recognise the need to encourage self-respect and a feeling of independence, but who overlook the fact that senior management have the same natural feelings. I am not certain that this formula of hiring management will promote that dynamic initiative and the new motivation which we must develop among those who have, by merit, worked their way towards the top. There is in the British aircraft industry an enormous body of talent, some of it latent, some of it needing more opportunity for expression. We have to find new and better ways of using this talent. But we must beware of changes which appear to favour one section of workers at the expense of another.
One other section of the Consultative Document has been assailed from opposing sides; namely, that relating to diversification. I was asked by the noble Earl whethcr I would say something about that. There are those who think we should have gone wider, taken over other industries; and, on the other hand, there are those who condemn the proposed powers of diversification. Nothing that I have seen so far leads me to think that we were wrong in limiting the scope of

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public ownership to those companies which account for about 80 per cent. of employment and turnover in the airframe and guided weapons sector. It will be quite a task to get that 80 per cent. into proper shape. I think we should see how we get on before we consider widening that scope. If there is an obvious need to acquire, by agreement other companies in the airframe sector, it is right that the powers should be there. I might say in this connection that I have been asked by deputations, by at least one other company, that we should include them in the airframe companies that are to be taken over. But I think the decision that we have put forward in the Consultative Document is probably the right one.
If we are to maintain stable employment, or to spread overheads, or profitably to use floor space, then some appropriate diversification is possible— as I think noble Lords opposite will agree, there is nothing new in this—and the powers should be there. I see that one firm making equipment points out that 75 per cent. of its output goes overseas, and another claims to supply 450 airlines and air forces in 138 different countries. These were precisely the kind of considerations which led to the decision that we took regarding scope. But of course if the situation changed, or if at any time the corporation in any particular field thought it could develop some instrument, some item of equipment, ought we really to say, No? But this permissive power ought not to give rise to the kind of fears that the noble Earl had in mind. In this sector, too, with proper discussion, I hope we might get wider agreement. Those are some of the thoughts which I hope will be helpful, and I look forward to hearing the remainder of the debate.
5.58 p.m.
The Earl of AMHERST: My Lords, may I also congratulate the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, on allowing us to have this debate. Perhaps I might be allowed in advance to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Briginshaw, on his maiden speech. When the date for this debate was first put on the Order Paper, I was told that I would be in order if I raised some salient points with regard to the airline position, improvement at Heathrow,
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and IATA. I have since been told that this is not so, so I shall confine my remarks to the construction industries and the proposals for nationalisation.
The noble Earl has already referred to the Plowden Committee. I shall do so again, but in a slightly different reference. We note that it recommended that the Government should take a majority shareholding in the amalgamated British Aircraft Corporation and the Hawker Siddeley Group. The Government now say that the only way of achieving a satisfactory framework for the industry's future is for the Government to take over the industry in full ownership, which presumably also includes what I believe to be some 300 ancillary businesses and possibly 200,000 employees. This excludes—and if I am wrong perhaps the noble Lord will put my figures right when he replies—defence and space projects, and the Westland Helicopter Company. Can the noble Lord tell us why the Westland Company has been chosen for exclusion?
The Consultative Document, which has already been referred to, which was published by the Department of Industry in January last, contains some high-sounding and faintly benign phrases, such as: To secure the long-term viability of the industry by giving it motivation to make the best use of available resources; unification of major production units as a means of using available resources to their best advantage; to establish a framework in which the industries' interests can be reconciled with the national interest; to enable the industry to operate flexibly in a competitive international market; to encourage strong and organic forms of industrial democracy and to facilitate diversification into areas where the capacities and skills can be advantageously employed. Possibly, all well and good.
However, is not the existing industry aiming at just these objectives? Would they not be able to carry them out under the Plowden Committee's recommendations? Can we be told just where and how the Government think these people have been or are falling down? Perhaps we might be told to what extent the new shareholders (presumably the taxpayers), the 300 firms, the 200,000 employees and the international sales effort will benefit.

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At the risk of being accused of searching for sinister motives, I would draw attention to the pronounciamento that while the Government state that they want the new Corporation to have the greatest possible commercial freedom consisent with public accountability and broad Government policy, the powers of the Secretary of State in the Nationalisation Bill will have to be the minimum necessary to give him strategic control.
However, to secure this control the Secretary of State will appoint the chairman and the Board, and he will approve annually the Corporation's corporate plans and its annual operating budget; he will receive regular returns of performance against budgets; he will approve major development programmes, barring the exclusions I have mentioned, and he will give general direction in the national interest. In fact, he is to have a veto on practically every facet of the business. Neither my colleagues nor I like nationalisation for any doctrinaire sake of nationalisation, and we are seriously alarmed that any Minister should, in times of peace, be given such wide dictatorial powers, without, it seems, any reference to Parliament.
Lastly, we note that the industry has been given 28 days in which to study the proposals and make its views known to the Minister. We think this is far too short a time in which to study properly such a vast project and we would ask the Government to think again and to give more time. I know that I have asked several questions of which I have not given notice to the noble Lord, and if he cannot answer me today, perhaps he will write to me.
6.2 p.m.
Lord BRIGINSHAW: My Lords, in addressing you for the first time this evening, in accordance with tradition I seek your indulgence. What is said outside about this House—its past, its traditions, its usages and even its future —could not detract in any way from the sure knowledge that anyone will have a deep understanding of a subject within a short while of entering this House, nor could it contest in any way its courtesy. On the matter before us this evening I shall take advantage of and conform with the almost unanimous desire of the House for brevity. What I say this evening
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may disappoint some noble Lords, but I am sure that another occasion will arise.
I would remind your Lordships that the British aircraft industry is second only to the United States in the Western world. It is the largest in Europe and, perhaps, the only point of contention on which I shall be drawn this evening, is the fact that over the past 25 or 30 years it could not possibly have been in that position had it not been for the intervention and continued support of State capital for research and development. This has provided the basis for the successes and the genuine pride that has been expressed by noble Lords already this evening. Although on this occasion I cannot be drawn too deeply into controversy or contest, I believe that Rolls-Royce would like the opportunity of having Government support for the development of an aircraft engine that is within their capacity—one that would be the quietest in the world. I also know that British Airways would be delighted to co-operate and participate in the development of such a project. I am sure they would both be happy if there were indications of Government support. I am sure it is unnecessary for me to emphasise the export possibilities of an engine of this kind. People in all countries would be appreciative of a silent aircraft, and this would be a contributory factor in solving the problem of siting airports. Therefore, there would be every encouragement for us to enter this vast field of possible exports.
In order to avoid any controversy during the few minutes in which I will address your Lordships this evening, I will merely, as it were, think aloud on one matter which has been raised in this debate. Perhaps through our mass media, particularly our national newspapers, we should be encouraged to consider whether we ought to have a new concept of patriotism in our attitudes towards our State industries. On both sides of the House this evening there is pride in our aircraft industry; its place in the world is undoubted.
Perhaps some consideration could be given to this "thinking aloud", so that this idea might become part of our national concept, the concept of patriotism in the State industries, that will be so important to us in these difficult days.

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I could so easily drift into contention and, while I may have disappointed many noble Lords this evening, I promise that on future occasions on a number of other subjects and problems that have been raised, I will seek the opportunity to return in more contentious form with a more robust presentation. Suffice it to say that I am very appreciative on this occasion of the attention and courtesy of your Lordships.
6.9 p.m.
Earl FERRERS: My Lords, it is a seldom and rare privilege to have heard a speech like the one we have just heard. So far as I am concerned, it is a unique privilege to follow the noble Lord, Lord Briginshaw, and to tell him that not only those of us on this side but the whole House, respected enormously not only what he said but the way he said it. In his gentle and attractive method of delivery one could not help feeling that all his natural impulses were straining at the leash to prevent his being controversial, and he succeeded to a quite extra-ordinary degree. We are not at all disappointed in his contribution. Indeed, to witness someone making a maiden speech without a note in his hand, is most impressive.
Those of us who have not had the privilege of seeing him before feel that we know him slightly because he is in charge of a union, not noted for its reactionary views, which periodically delights the public by removing from it the opportunity of reading all the miserable news that the purveyors of information seem to think we need to have. He is well known and respected for his firmness of operation in his work. What is not so well known is his erudition and learning, and the fact that one of his pastimes is that of being an expert on military strategies of the past, of which I think Clausewitz is his main interest. Doubtless he derives his tactical experience in his every-day work from the historical military mentors of the past.
We are glad to see the noble Lord and we look forward I hope on many occasions to hearing from him in the future. This is a special week for him. He has made his maiden speech today, and tomorrow he celebrates a party which is being given in his honour, he having been a full-time officer with NATSOPA for
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25 years. I would congratulate him on his new triumph, which he celebrates today, and wish him well on the long-term triumph which he is celebrating tomorrow.
My noble friend has certainly introduced a subject of extreme interest and topicality. We all want to see the British aircraft industry succeed. Rather like the affiliation small boys have with trains, the great British public feels a sense of attachment, pride and almost personal involvement with the aircraft industry. I suppose this is because its products are in the vanguard of research and technology and are the result of an extraordinary amalgam of boffin-type brains, hard industrial manufacture and a financial control which must almost be regulated by zombies, so complex are the ventures in which they are concerned and which are really on the threshold of the unknown. There is therefore a built-in reflex action of great sympathy by the British public. We want to see this industry successful, not only for those working in it but also for the country as a whole so that we may play a part in the advancement of the frontiers of knowledge and also as an encouragement to exports and their promotion. Yet today we find this industry turned into turmoil because of the Government's stated intention to nationalise it.
Here we accept entirely that totally different points of view are adopted by noble Lords opposite and by those who sit on these Benches; there are different points of view taken by people who work in the aircraft industry and by management. But if we are at one in trying to seek what is best for the industry then there should be room for intelligent argument as to how that is best achieved, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, for having intervened on this specific point right at the beginning, and for having portrayed the arguments both courteously and delicately. I was impressed with his manner and his arguments, but was sorrowful about his conclusions.
If we leave out the arguments which are motivated by theoretical political philosophy it might be said that the real purpose of nationalisation is twofold. The first argument is that because the Government have to spend so much

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of the taxpayers' money in backing projects, then they should have not just a stake in but a control over the industry. This premise masquerades under the attractive, and, incidentally inaccurate, title of "accountability". The second argument says that we ought to have one airframe business, not two, and that nationalisation will achieve this. I do not think it follows that if a Government put money into the manufacture of something necessarily it will be better manufactured if the Government owns it. The best way to get a product manufactured properly is to employ the professionals to do it, and this is precisely what the Government do when they give manufacturers contracts for military requirements. They say, "You have the knowledge, the expertise, the ability. You make it, we will pay". That is a straightforward commercial contract.
Launching aid for specific products is totally different: it can be given by the Government on their terms and does not of itself invite or require ownership of the business, any more than the fact of, for instance, giving grants to farmers necessitates Government ownership of farms. The mere fact that the Government may be the biggest purchaser does not impose the requirement of ownership. But of course the Government are not the biggest purchaser. For instance, Hawker-Siddeley Aviation sells more than half of its products for export. BAC already have outstanding orders for £900 million, £600 million of which are for export. Therefore, construed on that basis, those companies might be more appropriately owned by a collection of foreigners; but of course nobody in his right mind would suggest that course.
My Lords, too often the impression is given that nothing can be produced by The British aircraft industry unless it is subsidised by the Government. That is not so. The figures need to be examined. Indeed nobody could put it more clearly than Sir Arnold Hall put it a short while ago when he said that out of every £1 spent by the Government on civil aviation projects over the last ten years, about 92p went between Concorde and the RB 211, a little under 3p went to Hawker-Siddeley and the other 5p went to other parts of the industry. So it is Concorde and the RB 211, both prestige projects,
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which we have rightly, as some people think, wrongly as others think, entered into which have taken the lion's share of Government funds. We should dispel the view that without Government help the aircraft industry is on its last legs. Of course, if the Government feel that they do not have enough control over the funds which they allocate, that could be an argument for strengthening the system of control. But I find it hard to believe that Government accountability is inadequate.
There is the Government Contracts Review Board, the defence contracts machinery and the Public Accounts Committee. The noble Lord, Lord Beswick, said that theirs was a negative interest. I find that hard to believe, because I should have thought that theirs was a very positive interest. These three totally separate but public bodies are far more in a position adequately to assess the imprudence, inadequacy or shortcomings than is possible with the self-criticism, or inevitable inhibition of it, imposed by a nationalised industry upon itself.
But there is an argument for the rationalising of the industry, by making one airframe construction business instead of two. The previous Conservative Administration were in favour of this, but my question would be: Will nationalisation achieve rationalisation? I think not. Few would doubt that in a theoretical world if you put Hawker-Siddeley Aviation and BAC into a mixing bowl and stirred them up you would get, at least on paper, a more efficient business and a general tidying up—but at the expense of several thousand jobs and the closure of some factories. Some would argue that in the interests of efficiency—and I am bound to say that I am never quite certain what efficiency is, because I am sure it is more than what the cost accountants would have one believe—this should be done.
However, I do not believe that any Member of your Lordships' House would expect a Government—least of all a Labour Government—at this time deliberately to create unemployment by rationalisation, and this will certainly not happen by nationalisation. To make one firm out of two without economies would, I suggest, be disastrous, apart from being quite pointless, but I myself am not so certain that it will be best to have one unified whole. When there are two enti-

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ties, one can very easily see the theoretical advantages and the economies which can be achieved by making them one. It is only after the single entity has been created that one may realise that gone for ever are the advantages of competitiveness, rivalry and a sharp cutting edge which went with a non-monopolistic industry. The Hawk Trainer is a typical example of this. The design went out to tender to both the BAG and Hawker Siddeley. They both wanted the contract. Each knew that the other wanted the contract. Hawker Siddeley finally got it and the result of the competition was that it was a better aircraft technically; that it was better for the RAF and that the cost was better for the Government.
My Lords, there is one person above all who should be considered: that is the customer. Without the customer there is no point in having an aircraft industry. For all the arguments, this is not a philanthropic institution for the creation of employment. I should be the first to agree that good industrial relations are of extreme importance, but the whole purpose of the industry must be to provide products which its customers, whether they be Government or airlines, require. Therein must lie success and the success of those employed in the industry. Nationalisation, if it were to take place —and 1 still hope that it will not—must be carried out in order to make a positive contribution to that end. That is why I find this booklet, A New Approach to Public Ownership, quite terrifying. It is published by a body called the Bristol Aircraft Workers' Study Group and the name carries the insinuation—though, to be fair, it explains that it is not so—that it represents the views of the British aircraft workers. While advancing the cause of and suggesting the methods for nationalisation, not once does it refer to how nationalisation will benefit the customer. Its paramount concern is related to
"pushing forward the frontiers of industrial democracy ",
whatever that may mean, and to worker involvement and control. I quote from the booklet:
"Our proposals would require the direct election of representatives from among those who work in the industry to constitute the overall decision and policy making body."
My Lords, this may be fine for advancing the theories of industrial demo-
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cracy and worker participation, but it contributes absolutely nothing to the debate on how to make the industry more efficient. Frankly, I should have dismissed the booklet as an utter irrelevance and as the work of people on the periphery of the political scene who are obsessed with Party dogma of some sort. After all, all Parties have them. But my concern is with the fact that on the outside front cover it shows the Secretary of State for Industry, Mr. Wedgwood Benn, addressing a mass meeting of aircraft workers and that on the inside of the back cover it carries an advertisement saying, "Speeches by Tony Benn, the authentic voice of British Socialism, cloth, £3."My Lords, this blatant display of advertising and of a desire to be associated with the Secretary of State makes me wonder how much influence the Secretary of State has had over the views expressed in this book or how much those views have influenced him. I hope; that the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, will dissociate his right honourable friend entirely from connection with, reliance on or concurrence with the views expressed in the book. I have given notice to the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, that I should be asking him this question and I shall look forward to hearing from him that there is no association.
My Lords, I do not believe that the case for nationalisation has been made out by commercial or industrial arguments; it rests on political arguments. However, the mere threat of nationalisation has already presented some of the companies with unexpected problems over financing for new equipment if no allowance for such additional expenditure is to be made. The aircraft industry is a highly sensitive field where quick decisions of great importance have to be made, and one wonders how a nationalised industry will compare in that respect with its American counterpart which is and always has been absolute "mustard "in that respect. Historical analysis would not indicate that this would lead to our advantage. Here, with a great deal of modesty, I would offer a word of caution. When thinking of the future the aircraft industry may consider that its future lies in association with Europe or in partnership with America. We should remember that we have a thriving and—contrary to what many people think—a highly

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profitable industry. It is the largest in Europe, being twice as large as that of France and four times as large as that of West Germany, and it is in Europe and even in Britain that the future of the industry should lie. I suggest that we should guard against any inclination to turn our backs on Europe in favour of short-term advantages which may appear to lie across the Atlantic. Mutual participation with America may be possible to a limited extent; too big an involvement may be attractive the first time round, but it is not impossible that at the second time round the American companies may say, "This time we want to do it on our own, thank you. "At worst, we should then have lost our new-found association in America and have severed our natural association with Europe and, at best, we should have become a sub-contractor to the all-powerful American aircraft industry and the prosperity of our industry would be regulated by the latter's considerations. We are not subcontractors; we are, have always been and should be determined to remain, pioneers not only in construction but in techniques and in thought.
My Lords, the RB.211 engine is an example of what I mean. It is a fine engine, one of the most efficient in the world. It is quiet, economical and good from the point of view of pollution. Yet the only aircraft that it is being put into is the Lockheed TriStar, though there is the possibility that it will be put into the Boeing 747. The whole future of this engine is therefore dependent upon its being put into an American airframe. I wonder whether it is not possible to get ourselves out of the highly exposed and vulnerable state in which we are. I suggest that it might be possible to build a British airframe to take this British engine, and I would ask the Government to consider whether we could not even now make an updated version of the 311 aircraft which was turned down some years ago. The situation is different now. When it was turned down we had no engine, but now we have the RB.211 engine and, even if a certain amount had to be spent on research and development, it would be minimal compared with the £200 million or so which has already been spent on the engine. Yet it would give us an up-to-date, all-British, wide-
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bodied aircraft which would be efficient, quiet and clean to operate. It would also give us security for the future of the RB.211 and more orders for it.
In that connection, my Lords, could the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, confirm that the Government have agreed to give aid for development for the "hottedup" version of the engine to which my noble friend Lord Kinnoull referred, and, if so, how much? I believe that work is also going ahead to fit it to the Boeing 747, which will give it a higher payload and a longer range. I think that this has been agreed, provided that Rolls-Royce accept responsibility for the alteration of the aircraft design and for the subsequent programme of certification which will have to be carried out. Can the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, say whether this project has or will have any Government participation?
Any new aircraft venture has its fearful problems, and I am glad that, despite their very hesitant start, the Government have agreed to go ahead with the Concorde. I am sure this is right and time—it will need time—will show this. But British Airways expect delivery of their first £25 million aircraft in November, and the second in December, and scheduled flights are due to start in January. But, as yet, they cannot fly it, because they have no landing permission anywhere in the world. I accept that there are difficult negotiations going on, but if the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, were able to say how these negotiations are progressing, it would be much appreciated.
Another vitally important decision is awaited—my noble friend referred to this, as well—about the Harrier. About 220 of these have been sold—half, I think, to the United Kingdom and half to the United States Marines. Are the Government to go ahead with the maritime version?—because if they are, then there are opportunities for considerable exports abroad. But if the Navy, who I understand want this aircraft, are not prepared, or are not permitted, to have it, the overseas exports will be put in jeopardy.
My Lords, we are going through difficult times, both for aircraft manufacture and aircraft operation—apart from inflation and recession—and we have seen many airlines cut down on their operations. Yet the funny thing is that in the

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last year every airline which has cut down on its operations has lost more money and more passengers by so doing. In fact, the passenger loss which airlines have sustained is almost directly related to their reduction in capacity; in other words, those who reduced their capacity by 20 per cent. have reduced the passengers which they have carried by almost the same amount. Conversely, each airline which has increased its capacity has increased the number of passengers which it has carried and has increased its profit —and all of this at a time of recession! There must be a moral in this somewhere, if one can find it. I suggest it could be that despite the recession there are more people actually in work today in this country than in 1972; despite inflation, in the past three years the net disposable income of the country as a whole has gone up by over £4,000 million, and a similar picture exists in the United States.
The point is, therefore, that the cash is there; people have got it and want to travel, and the demand is there. Our only problem is how to tap them both, and the only way to do that is to provide the right type of service and the right type of aircraft. If we do that there is a future for our airlines, both national and private, and a future for our manufacturing industry. But we must go out and seize the opportunities, which I believe are there.
6.33 p.m.
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, it is a special pleasure and privilege for me to rise so soon after the noble Lord, Lord Briginshaw, has made his maiden speech, which I found so interesting and full of promise for the future. Like the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, I noticed how he was straining at the leash a little, but that, no doubt, is an experience of which we shall have the pleasure in the future. I also wish to pay a tribute to the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, for introducing the Motion and giving us the opportunity to discuss this matter. I have an apology to make to the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, because I did not take up his offer to consider in advance any points I wished to make, so that he could be better prepared to answer them. I do not think I have anything to say that is unpredictable, so far as the aoble Lord is concerned,
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but if I say anything that he feels unable to answer until a later point I shall understand.
What I have to say is concerned principally with the Consultative Document which the Government published a few weeks ago. Like the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, I wondered how it was that the Government came to the conclusion that Lord Plowden—and I quote from paragraph 3 of the document
"… recommended that the Government should take a majority shareholding in the British Aircraft Corporation and in the airframe and guided weapons interests of the Hawker Siddeley group …"
because I cannot find that in the Plowden Report, either. If that is the major platform on which the Government are basing these nationalisation proposals then it does no): get first place, but there are other objections as well, which I shall endeavour to show—
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, I hope the noble Lord will excuse me. I should like to dismiss that point about Plowden. I am not, and the Government are not, basing their case on that. I think that if we take paragraphs 474 and 493 together, they indicate that the majority of the Plowden Committee, as distinct from the minority of the Plowden Committee, suggested that the Government should take up over half the equity in the three firms.
Lord TREFGARNE: My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Lord for that point. I will not pursue it at this stage. I do not have a copy of the Plowden Report with me, and there are other points which I should like to make. Noble Lords opposite and their colleagues were in power in 1965 and, if the Plowden Report recommended nationalisation or a majority shareholding, why did they not do something about it then? They were in Office until 1970. Of course, the right honourable gentleman the Secretary of State was not, I think, Secretary of State then; so, perhaps, it is he and he alone who is promoting these new proposals. If one reads the Consultative Document it bears his stamp and not that of the noble Lord sitting on the Front Bench opposite.
Paragraphs 2 and 4 of the Consultative Document talk about greater public accountability. The noble Earl, Lord

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Ferrers, and indeed the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, also mentioned this point, but I fail to see how it is that public ownership extends public accountability to these industries. After all, the coal industry, the railways, British Airways and others are already in public ownership and who can say that they are more accountable now than before they were nationalised? The present contractual arrangements in the aircraft industry already provide better accountability than is likely to exist after public acquisition.
Paragraph 7 of the Document touches on the scope of the proposed nationalisation and the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, has already mentioned that; but like the noble Earl, Lord Amherst, I am very puzzled as to why the Westland Helicopter Company has not been included in the proposals. I do not think that the reasons advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, for omitting that company, and, perhaps other companies—he did not, in fact mention that company specifically—are very convincing. If the arguments which the Government advance for the acquisition of the other companies are to be taken seriously, surely those arguments must apply equally to the Westland Helicopter Company and, for that matter, to the major systems and components manufacturers, like Dowty-Rotol and Smiths Industries.
In Paragraph 8 of the Consultative Document, we are told about the effects of public ownership on the companies that it is proposed to take over. I found that paragraph perhaps the most distasteful of all in the Document, because of the rather thinly veiled threats as to what would happen to these beastly people if they scuttled the ship before we got there; if, for example, they sold off all the assets before we were able to take them over; or if they helped themselves to enormous pensions before we finally got in to prevent all that. I think—at least, I hope—that the Government will want to reconsider some of the remarks in that paragraph, because if I were in the manufacturing industry—which I am not—I should have been rather offended by them. That same paragraph talks of fair compensation to be paid for the companies to be taken over. That would be fine if it were not for the remarks which we have already heard from the
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right honourable gentleman the Secretary of State about taking into account the public money—mostly in the form of grants or development contracts—that has already been paid to these companies. One noble Lord—I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Briginshaw—talked about State capital being put into these industries; but there has been no State capital put into these industries; there have been grants and items which could be classified as of a revenue nature, but not capital. There is, I submit, a distinct difference.
The noble Lord, Lord Beswick, talked about the transfer of ownership and did not understand how that could strain the economy. If that is the case, the fair compensation referred to in paragraph 8 can only be very small. Like other noble Lords, I have no special comment to make about the proposals to extend the industrial democracy arrangements or about the general proposal under the organisation of public ownership in paragraphs 9 and 10. But I wonder how it is imagined that the new Corporation is to become more efficient and more competent under the direction of the Secretary of State—because there is no doubt in my mind that the Secretary of State has taken very wide powers to control the day-to-day actions of the Corporation in the proposed legislation—and I wonder how it is he imagines that he and his successors will be able to exercise better management control of those companies than we have today.
I would refer to paragraph 13 in the Consultative Document which talks about the extension of the scope of the new Corporation by diversification. I find this a rather sinister proposal, because I think it will be difficult for Parliament to control the scope of the diversification of an aircraft enterprise, as opposed to moving into another industry altogether. Perhaps this might well be covered by the legislation when it comes before the House. I hope so.
My Lords, I should like to make one further proposal which is not contained in these Documents, but is one which, I hope, will commend itself to the Government; that is, to make provision in the legislation for the accounts of the new Corporation to be audited by outside accountants. I cannot pretend that I am an expert in these matters. I believe that this is not done, in the case of the

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nationalised industries that we have at present, but that it might go some way towards allaying the fears over the extension of accountability that I have mentioned if the accounts were audited annually by independent accountants, accountants not related to the Government and upon whom we can all rely for an unbiased view.
In paragraph 16 we have provision for the financial arrangements of the Corporation; and the Government suggest that the new relationship that they propose between the Corporation and the Ministries—the Ministry of Defence, for example, who will be an important customer—will promote the smooth running and accountability (to use a wellworn word in this context) of the Corporation. I find it difficult to imagine how it is that a contract between two Government Departments, where any excess profits or losses if any, are borne by the customer, can lead to greater accountability. Surely this is a total lack of control rather than an improvement! I have already touched on the question of the control to be exercised by the Secretary of State which seems to me to be more detailed than is provided for in the nationalisation of other industries. It is, I think, especially undesirable in this case, bearing in mind that the industries to be taken over are, by and large, very profitable anyway. There seems to be nothing to suggest that the new arrangements will be any improvement at all.
The final point, which is really an expansion of one that I have previously made, is the question of the cost of taking over. There is nothing in this document to suggest what that cost is to be. As other noble Lords have said, in these strained economic times it is surely vital at this early junction that we have some idea of how much money the Government propose to spend.
6.46 p.m.
Lord KINGS NORTON: My Lords, I think that the Motion of the noble Earl. Lord Kinnoull, has been on the "No Day Named "list for a long time; but it could not have come off at a more opportune moment because it has given us this opportunity of considering the nationalisation proposals in a particularly easy atmosphere and one in which I hope we can express views which will be of value to the Government. To
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begin with, I should like to add my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Briginshaw, on his maiden speech. He may have overlooked it, but he and I have a connection; and if he wishes to devote more of his time to developing his interest in aviation then he must come more often to Cranfield where he is a member of the court and I have the honour of being the Chancellor.
My Lords, I feel that so far the argument has gone very much against the Government proposals in the Consultative Document. When we consider the weight of the argument put forward by the SBAC, by the CBI and by noble Lords in this House this afternoon, I feel that the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, persuasive as he was in his intervention, is really having the worst of it—but he is to have another go later on. Nevertheless, although it is my view that the whole weight of the argument is against the Government, I do not think that there is much doubt that they are to press forward with this legislation; and, in case they are successful, I should like to make one or two points which, if accepted, might mean that they could achieve their aim with the minimum of discomfort to the industry.
First, I should like to support the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, in his plea for maintaining the present machinery for monitoring expenditure in the industry. I think that it should be left unchanged. I think that in their organisation of technical cost estimators, their accountants, their contract officers, the Contract Review Board and the Public Accounts Committee, the Government have already a means for detailed supervision of the expenditure in the industry. In so far as there have been errors in the past, the machine has been strong and efficient enough to expose the errors, and adjustments have been made. But there have in the past been severe losses to the public purse—not because of any defect in this machinery but mainly, I would suggest, because of changes of mind by the Government on development policy; and not this Government particularly, but all recent Governments. We have had severe losses due to errors of judgment like the cancellation of the TSR-2 and like the ordering and cancellation of the Fl-11 and similar mistakes which in previous

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speeches in your Lordships' House I have referred to and need not refer to again.
So I believe that, whether or not an Aircraft Corporation of Great Britain is set up, we need some form of permanent agency, some kind of continuing organisation for guiding civil aircraft development policy, outside the Departments of State and unaffected by changes in Government, but planning of course within a budget agreed by Government. I appreciate the difficulties inherent in a suggestion of this kind, but believe that, whether or not the industry is nationalised, some very positive steps must be taken to avoid the great losses occasioned by oscillations in development policy. What is more, looking to the future, and realising that the enormous current success, which has been referred to, of the aircraft industry today is largely due to design work which they did years ago, we need some planning for the next decade to ensure that in ten years' time the success is as great as it is now.
Secondly, if the nationalisation process is to be pressed through then it should be pressed through as quickly as possible—
"… if it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well it were done quickly."
We must avoid, once the die is cast, if it is to be cast, a long twilight period of uncertainty, with financial confidence in the industry sapped by, for example, ignorance of the terms of compensation, and money for investment consequently hard to come by.
One of the objectives that the Government have stated in the Consultative Document, of which I heartily approve, although I think it is achievable by straightforward negotiation between the companies concerned without nationalisation, is the unification of the main aircraft production units. I do not know that I care much for the word "unification", because it sounds like the creation of some vast central factory. "Rationalisation "would perhaps be better. But certainly, if reorganisation can produce a more efficient production organisation, then let us by all means reorganise. What must not be done, I suggest, is to centralise the design organisation. It is absolutely essential that a number of separate design teams be kept in being with their own special skills and esprits de corps. It may not often be necessary to have
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competing designs, and certainly competing prototypes would be very rare indeed; but competing brochures, so to speak, are necessary and talented designers must always have the means of full expression. I have had a lifetime of experience in administration, particularly the administration of technological enterprises, and I know that overcentralisation spells disaster.
I want to mention another matter which has already been referred to by the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, in his quite splendid speech. It is so important that I do not hesitate to mention it again. It is not connected with the pros and cons of nationalisation. I believe that industrially, commercially, scientifically, technologically, this country must collaborate with the rest of Europe. I happen to object, and object very strongly, to many aspects of the Treaty of Rome, but in the present context I regard it as unimportant. In the aircraft world we developed a number of co-operative projects with Continental countries. Three of them, which have been mentioned this afternoon already, are Jaguar, the MRCA and Concorde. We developed those long before the Treaty of Accession.
Even if the forthcoming Referendum takes us out of the European Economic Community, there is no reason on earth why our industrial, commercial, scientific and technological connections with Europe should be any different in character from what they were before we went in. To the aircraft industry, nationalised or not, I regard the European connection as vital. Without it we should gradually be forced, as the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, said, into a transatlantic connection, and that for our aircraft industry, I am convinced, would be the suffocating kiss of a lingering death. As the noble Lord, Lord Briginshaw, said in his speech, our aircraft industry is the most powerful outside the United States of America and the USSR. It can be a major part of a European consortium, but could never be more than a junior partner in a transatlantic association. So I should like to be assured, when the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, replies, that a fundamental plank in the policy of any national aircraft corporation that may be created by the Government is the maintenance and development of the European connection.

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I do not say that change is unnecessary. If the primary objective of change is seen as a concentration of our aeronautical resources, then I agree with the objective. But I do not believe that nationalisation is necessary to achieve it. Indeed, I believe that the kind of nationalisation adumbrated in this famous paragraph 15, which has been referred to several times already this afternoon, would be of the worst possible type. inevitably this nationalisation, if it goes through, is going to be expensive because the shareholders can scarcely expect to be given less than the net tangible assets of the industries which the merchant bank Fraser Ansbacher calculate to be £121 million. If we have to regard it as inevitable, I suggest that the organisation should be modelled on that of the Rolls-Royce Company, which though nationalised seems to be extremely well run with the minimum of official interference.
My Lords, in this matter my noble friend Lord Beswick is, I fear, for the first time in our long acquaintance on the opposite side from me in an aviation debate. This I very much regret. Aviation has many friends in this House but has no greater friend than the noble Lord. He and I have seen eye to eye on many aeronautical issues in the past. All I can say on this one is that if the nationalisation goes through; if it is done with due regard to the criticisms that have been made; if the organisation has an independence comparable with that of Rolls-Royce, and if the chairman and the board are a team of knowledgeable enthusiasts, then—who knows?—we may see eye to eye again. I hope that when the noble Lord replies he may be able to encourage me to believe that this will happen.
6.58 p.m.
Earl ALEXANDER of TUNIS: My Lords, I have listened with much interest to the arguments put forward by previous speaker. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Kinnoull who has brought forward this Motion. He has done much in this 'House for the benefit of the aircraft industry; he has given it his great support, and he always speaks on the subject with depth of knowledge. I would also add my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Briginshaw, for his splendid off-the-cuff maiden speech. It was indeed
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a great pleasure to listen to. Many of the points I had intended to raise have been dealt with in a concise and informative manner—I am sure your Lordships will agree on that point. There are, however, one or two points I should like to raise. I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, for not giving him private notice of them.
A great deal of comment has been bandied about in the national newspapers concerning worker control on the boards of nationalised companies. I wonder whether the noble Lord could make any comment about that. Secondly, would the commercial decisions of the nationalised companies be left in the hands of the present managers, or would they be made by Whitehall? We should like to know the answer to that question. Other than that, as I am the final speaker tonight, all the points that I wished to make have already been made. My only comment, therefore, is that if the Government feel that it is right to nationalise the aircraft industry, which is a vital dollar and foreign currency earner, I hope they will make sure that in future it is run in what I believe is the successful way that it is run now.
7.1 p.m.
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, it would be difficult for me to claim that in the debate I have had overwhelming support for the proposal to bring this industry under public ownership. I do not intend to rehearse again the points that I made in support of my Government's proposal, but I shall have one or two comments to make. First, may I add my congratulations to those which have already so warmly and rightly been given to my noble friend Lord Briginshaw on his maiden speech. If I may say so, I especially approved of his proposition that a successful aircraft industry can be not only an economic benefit but can add considerably to national morale.
It was asked by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, who opened the debate and by the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, about the development of the RB.211–524. The position is rather complicated. This also raises the question of the quiet engine which was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Briginshaw. The estimated total launch cost for this version is £45 million at 1973 prices. The Government will make agreed phased contributions

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towards these costs until 1978. These contributions, including the payments which have already been made, will bring direct Government support to a total of £26·3 million. The payment for 1976 and later years will, however, be subject to escalation based on cost increases after 1975. If there are any further points upon which the noble Earl feels that I should give him information, I should be grateful if he would raise them with me or write to me.
On the Boeing 747 application of the -524, the Government have informed Rolls-Royce (1971) that they will support further development and application of the -524 for use in the Boeing 747 when a further major order is obtained in addition to that of British Airways. I was asked about the maritime Harrier. I am afraid—
Earl FERRERS: My Lords, am I to understand from what the noble Lord has said, that the Government are giving a contribution for those engines to go into the Boeings which British Airways already have, or is this not so?
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, certain work has been done on the necessary modification to the Boeing 747. I am not absolutely certain whether that sum of money, which is not considerable, is being given directly by Her Majesty's Government, or through the accounts of Rolls-Royce (1971). However, I will let the noble Earl know.
I was asked about the maritime Harrier. I am afraid that there is nothing I can say about a Government decision on the future of this aircraft. We recognise the export potential of the maritime Harrier. We recognise also that it will depend a good deal upon the use which is made of it by the Royal Navy. However, I am afraid that it is something about which further thought is required. Design work is continuing, and a Statement will be made as quickly as possible.
The noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, and the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, asked me about the Concorde situation. The fact is that the Department of Trade are pressing forward as rapidly as possible their discussions with the countries who will be concerned with the routes and the landing rights for Concorde when it enters airline service. We are making
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progress; but because these matters are rather complicated it is difficult not to prejudice the position if interim public statements are made. We are determined to go ahead with the necessary negotiations, and I hope that the noble Earl will accept that as soon as it is possible to do so we shall make a Statement.
I was asked especially by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, about endurance flying. We expect that in March or April Concorde will receive the special certificate of airworthiness which it needs before it begins its programme of endurance flying. The programme will begin later in the year. The position about further authorisations remains the same as that contained in the agreement which was reached between the Prime Minister and President Giscard d'Estaing in July 1974. As the House will know, there is a proposal that M. Cavaillé and my right honourable friend will meet again, and I am hopeful that there will be a meeting in the middle of March. The full certification of airworthiness and the operational programme should start certainly at the beginning of next year and, if possible, at the end of this year.
I was very pleased to hear the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, and my noble friend Lord Kings Norton, raise the question of European collaboration. I think that the points that they made are sound ones. In my view, collaboration here is a quite separate argument from that on the European Economic Community negotiations, of EEC membership or otherwise.
The MRCA, the Jaguar and the Concorde programmes are going forward. There is, of course, the Hawker Siddeley interest in the A300. With the encouragement of the Governments concerned, some of the major European airlines—British Airways, Air France and Lufthansa— have been discussing their future operational requirements, and are hoping to evolve a common specification for the aircraft they will need during the 1980s. In parallel, six of the major European airframe manufacturers, including the British Aircraft Corporation and the Hawker Siddeley Aircraft Company—and I am very pleased to see how well these two organisations and the technical people who are concerned are collaborating in advance of unification—have agreed

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among themselves at the industrial level to avoid wasteful duplication of their efforts, to assist each other to sell non-competing existing types of aircraft and to explore the possibilities of collaborating on future developments. I hope that this outlook will be acceptable to those who spoke about the possibilities of European collaboration.
I was asked by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, about the multi-role combat aircraft. In his Statement on the Defence Review the Secretary of State said that there is to be a sizable reduction in the rate of production of this aircraft for the Royal Air Force. The reduction will be about one-third. The production programme is still some way off, so the impact is not at all imminent. The Ministry of Defence are continuing with the project definition studies for an air defence variant of this aircraft.
Several noble Lords asked me why the Westland Company has been excluded from the proposals for nationalisation. I am not absolutely certain whether or not they are pressing me into extending the boundaries of nationalisation. I thought I had made it clear that in our view there will be a major task of re-organising the two major airframe companies, that the problems and prospects of the Westland Company are somewhat different, and that there is no reason therefore to extend the proposals to them.
A point was made by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, about the size of the aircraft company that will emerge as a result of public ownership. He indicated that there will be a disadvantage so far as size is concerned. I thought he referred with some degree of criticism to the gigantic size of this new Corporation. I have the figures of some American airframe companies. Although Boeing has, of course, slimmed down, because they had a most: amazing programme of redundancies, they still have about 68,000-plus employees; North American Rockwell have over 100,000, Lockheed have 66,000 and McDonnell Douglas have 78,000. Each of them therefore will be about the size of, or bigger than, the combined British Corporation. I think this will put us in a better position than before to compete, and I do not think the idea can be supported that we should be unmanagable at the size considered.
The Earl of KINNOULL: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. The point I was making was that we see from British Leyland that a huge conglomeration makes management extremely difficult, and in the case of British Leyland I believe this has been adverse to the interests of the motor industry. I hope the same situation will not be repeated in the aviation industry. The fact that the noble Lord offers us comparisons with the American industry prompts me to say that I hope very much we never reach the same state of affairs as the American industry, going up and down like a yo-yo, which is most unsatisfactory.
Lord BESWICK: My Lords, in another connection recently I had occasion to say that I do not think an organisation that is bigger is necessarily better. Nevertheless, there is a case for thinking that a size of 70,000 is quite a different matter. The noble Earl, Lord Amherst, quoted a figure of 200,000, but I think he had in mind the aero-engine and the helicopter companies as well. I have dealt with the point concerning the power of the Secretary of State, about which I think some unnecessary alarm has been raised.
The noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, asked me about the French export figures. I have no reason to believe that the figures are not as the French statement maintains; I have not had the details and so I have been unable to study them. So far as the British figures are concerned, there is some discrepancy, as he rightly said, between the figures used by my Department and those used by the SBAC. For this year the SBAC quoted a figure of exports of £631 million; our comparable figure is £607 million, but that does not include various items which have gone out under other categories, for example, spare aircraft tyres and radar aids. Nor do we include in the net export figure re-exported goods—goods which have been brought in and re-exported. If one takes the net figure, we reach £512 million as against the SBAC's figure of £631 million, but on any reckoning this is a remarkable industry which is doing a first rate job of work.
I agree with what was said by the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, and the noble Lord, Lord Kings Norton, about the need for proper plan-

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ning of this industry. The importance of this is brought home to me when I look at the figures; I find that of the total employment at the present time, no fewer than 40 per cent. is on spares and repairs. It is the spares and repairs on goods which were sold up to—I have reason to believe in one case—12 to 15 years ago; so clearly it is the seed corn about which the noble Earl was speaking that we should be concerned about. On the other hand, it was said by a number of noble Lords that we were exporting rather more than 50 per cent. of the industry's output. In fact, I have looked at the total figures between 1964 and 1973. I find that of the total output of the industry 51·5 per cent. went to Her Majesty's Government, 13·5 per cent. to home and civil orders, and 35 per cent. to export. Here again there is an important and substantial export element, but I simply say that we do not want to spoil the case by exaggerating.
There were some differences of opinion with the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, and the noble Earl, Lord Alexander of Tunis, about industrial democracy, and I was asked in very categorical terms whether I would dissociate my right honourable friend from the booklet to which the noble Earl referred. I am afraid I cannot do that; I have no authority for doing that. What I can tell him is that I believe the picture which appears on the cover was of my right honourable friend addressing the workers at Bristol on the occasion when their livelihood was threatened as a result of the review of the Concorde project put in hand before we took Office, and those workers were very gratified by the action which my right honourable friend took at that time.
If this eventually goes into service and if, as I hope and believe it will, it becomes a credit to our industry and to the French industry, a large part of that credit will be due to my much criticised right honourable friend Mr. Anthony Wedgwood Benn. I cannot say that he is entirely unconnected with the kind of thinking behind that booklet, because I know that he is keen on encouraging people to do thinking on this and on other subjects.
Earl FERRERS: My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that that is precisely what is worrying us?
Lord BESWICK: I know, my Lords, and I am giving the noble Earl the facts. I am trying to be factual about this, and I was going on to say that, if the noble Earl gets very worried—and it is possible to think that here we are not only going up to the frontiers but beyond them in terms of democracy—I get a little solace, a little encouragement and am a little less worried when I think what was said when we made advances in political democracy.
May I remind your Lordships of what was said by Lord Macaulay on the occasion of the Second Reading of the 1832 Reform Bill, which I believe, was passed—I speak in the presence of experts—on Second Reading by one vote. Looking at the Opposition Bench, Lord Macaulay said,
"The jaw of Peel fell, the face of Twiss was the face of the damned, and Herries looked like Judas taking off his necktie for the last operation."
That perturbation, which was even greater than that displayed by the noble Earl, was at a proposal that there should be a vote to those who had a £10 rateable tenancy, or to tenant farmers—and then only if they were male.
My Lords, we have developed in that area of political democracy. I should not like to say where we shall eventually go in industrial democracy. We have to make progress. The rate at which we make it, I agree, is a most important factor. I should like to think that the good wishes extended by the noble Lord, Lord Kings Norton, to those who will take the eventual responsibility of this Corporation will be justified because, among other things, they will take proper care of this important factor of industrial democracy.
7.21 p.m.
The Earl of KINNOULL: My Lords, we started this debate at about 5.20 this afternoon, and since then one has had a nightmare in remembering whether we were allowed two or two and a half hours. I should like to thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate, and particularly to single out the noble Lord, Lord Briginshaw, for three splendid aspects of his maiden speech—brevity, no notes and the fact that he was non-contentious. It must have taken steely determination on his part, and we are all grateful. If I may single out another

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speech, it is that of the noble Lord, Lord Kings Norton, whose expertise in aviation matters is well known. I hope the views he put forward today will be considered by the Government when they read the report of the debate.
My Lords, the issue of nationalisation is today a matter only of skirmish, and we will be returning to this in due course. I convey my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, for the care which he has taken in giving us a great deal of information during the debate. There is one aspect on which I think we are all agreed; that is, whatever reorganisation takes place within the air frame industry, nothing should be done to harm the future of the industry. On that happy note, I beg leave to withdraw this Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

DISEASES OF ANIMALS (NORTHERN IRELAND) ORDER 1975
7.23 p.m.
The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, NORTHERN IRELAND OFFICE (Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge)The PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY of STATE, NORTHERN IRELAND OFFICE (Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge) rose to move, That the Draft Diseases of Animals (Northern Ireland) Order 1975, laid before the House on 21st January, be approved.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to move the Diseases of Animals (Northern Ireland) Order 1975. The purpose of this Order is to extend the Diseases of Animals Act (Northern Ireland) 1958 to make provision for the prevention and control of rabies and the control of other diseases communicable from animals to man; and to amend the Act to allow for increased fines and to standardise the time limit within which proceedings may be started for an offence against the Act. The most important part of the Order is the rabies provisions, which are contained in Articles 3 to 8 and which correspond directly to the provisions of the Rabies Act 1974. Like that Act, the Northern Ireland provisions are required to implement a number of the recommendations of the Waterhouse Committee of Inquiry on Rabies which reported in 1971. Among the powers sought is power to include, in an order declaring a rabies infected area, provisions for the
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destruction of foxes and other wild mammals. Methods of destruction, such as the laying of poisoned bait, which would otherwise be illegal, are authorised for this purpose as is the erection of fences to prevent animals entering or leaving an area where destruction is being carried out.
There is also power to require, in infected areas, notification of the death of animals and the disposal of their carcases, and the vaccination, confinement and control of domestic animals including strays. There is enabling power for the Department of Agriculture to make orders controlling the importation and use of rabies virus and power to require quarantine for animals which may be carriers of rabies. Also included is a requirement that any person, knowing or suspecting that an animal is infected with rabies should report the fact to the police. Powers for dealing with illegally imported animals are strengthened by making provision for the possible destruction of animals landed without a licence and for offences against rabies importation controls to be taken on indictment.
Before moving on to deal with the provisions of Articles 9 and 10, I think I should say a. word or two about the reason for introducing such stringent powers for the control of rabies. The United Kingdom has been virtually free of rabies since 1922, but we cannot afford to be complacent. The disease is advancing across Europe at a rate of approximately 20 to 40 kilometres per year and the French estimate is that it will reach the Channel coast by 1980. The risk of the disease entering this country has therefore never been greater. Remembering that rabies is caused by a virus which attacks the central nervous system and that once it has developed in humans it is almost invariably fatal, I am sure noble Lords will agree that stringent powers for dealing with this disease must be available throughout the United Kingdom.
Turning now to Article 9 which contains provisions of a more general nature for the control of diseases transmissible from animals to man, quaintly called zoonoses, these correspond to powers already available in Great Britain and will enable the Department of Agriculture to designate by order diseases carded in animals or birds which constitute a risk

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to human health and to apply any of the provisions of the Diseases of Animals Act (Northern Ireland) 1958 to such diseases. Salmonellosis, which is a form of food poisoning, is a good example of the sort of disease where action could become desirable. The Department will also be empowered to require a person, such as a veterinary surgeon, to report any case where he has reason to believe that an animal or bird may be affected with disease and there is provision for the Department's veterinary inspectors to enter land for the purpose of carrying out tests or taking samples for diagnosis.
The remaining provisions of the Order are designed to improve the effectiveness of the Northern Ireland Diseases of Animals legislation. Article 10(1) provides for an increase in the fines for offences against the Diseases of Animals Act (Northern Ireland) 1958. In 1967 the maximum fine for an offence was increased from £50 to £200 and this has remained at £200 despite the fact that in Great Britain the corresponding fine under the Diseases of Animals Act 1950 was increased in 1970 from £200 to £400. It is felt that the deterrent value of the Northern Ireland fines should now be restored and the £200 figure is therefore being increased to £500 with subsidiary fines increased accordingly.
The purpose of the amendments in Article 10(2) is to standardise the period within which legal proceedings may be started for an offence against the Act. At the moment proceedings must be started within six months of the date of an offence, except for offences in relation to imports of animals, poultry or eggs. where the limitation is five years or six months from the date when evidence first came to light, or the marking or movement of animals, where the limitation is three years or six months from the date when evidence first came to light. The effect of the amendments will be that, for any offence against the Act, legal proceedings may be started at any time within three years of the date of the offence or within six months of the date when evidence relating to the offence first came to the attention of the Department, whichever expires first. These amendments have been found necessary because of instances that have arisen, for example, in relation to illegal imports of meat, where offences
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have only come to light more than six months after their commission.
I should say that all the provisions of this Order had already been approved by the Executive and the Consultative Committee on Agriculture before the prorogation of the Assembly.
Finally, I hope that the House will bear with me if I speak in some detail about the Ninth Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, in which the Committee draws this draft Order to the special attention of the House on the grounds that its drafting appears to be defective. If noble Lords have some difficulty in following the rather detailed legal explanation which I shall give, perhaps they will read it tomorrow. It took me two readings before I fully understood it. These comments refer to paragraph (1) of Article 10 of the Order which amends Section 46(1) of the principal Act so as to increase the amount of certain fines. The present level of these fines was fixed by the Schedule to the Increase of Fines Act (Northern Ireland) 1967, and the relevant entries in that Schedule are repealed in the Repeal Schedule to the Order, as being superseded by it. The Committee has expressed the view that there should have been a reference to these repealed provisions in Article 10(1).
To have included such a reference to an earlier amending provision would be contrary to the practice in relation to Northern Ireland, by reason of a special provision contained in the Northern Ireland Interpretation Act (that is to say, Section 11(1) of the Interpretation Act (Northern Ireland) 1954) which provides that any reference to any statutory provision is to be construed as a reference to that provision as amended. There is no corresponding provision in the Interpretation Act 1889, but it is customary in Acts of Parliament to include a provision to the like effect, individually. Accordingly, the practice in relation to the drafting of Statutes, whether in relation to England, Scotland or Northern Ireland, is the same; that is to say, earlier amendments are not cited, save exceptionally.
An exception to the general rule is to be found in cases where the full text of the provision to be amended is to be found in an earlier amendment, and an

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illustration of this exceptional treatment is to be found in paragraph (2) of Article 10. This paragraph amends subsection (2) of Section 47 of the principal Act (which had no subsection (2) as originally enacted) and accordingly the reader is referred to the place where the text of subsection (2) is to be found. This practice is also in accordance with the practice of the Parliamentary Counsel in relation to the drafting of Statutes for all parts of the United Kingdom.
The Committee refers to this draft Order in Council as being "delegated legislation". In fact, it is not delegated legislation, but original legislation whereby Her Majesty in Council exercises the legislative powers of the Northern Ireland Assembly. The law which applies to Measures of the Northern Ireland Assembly applies to this Order also, by virtue of paragraph 1(7) of Schedule 1 to the Northern Ireland Act 1974. These Orders in Council are drafted by the Legislative Draftsmen's Office in Stormont, who previously served the Northern Ireland Assembly and, before that, the Parliament of Northern Ireland; and they follow, as they must, the law and practice relating to Acts of the Parliament of Northern Ireland and Measures of the Northern Ireland Assembly.
My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland would not, in any event, feel at liberty, during this temporary period of direct rule, to alter the practice in relation to the drafting of legislation applying only to Northern Ireland, even if the practice were at variance with other parts of the United Kingdom. But, as I have explained, the practice here is not inconsistent with the general practice in relation to England and Scotland. It follows that the Government do not feel able to accept what is proposed in this Report, and I recommend to the House that this draft Order in Council should be approved, as drafted. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Draft Diseases of Animals (Northern Ireland) Order 1975, laid before the House on 21st January, be approved.—(Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge.)
Lord BELSTEAD: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his explanation of this Order, and I should particularly like to welcome Article 8 which
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provides that certain offences to be specified in Rabies Importation Orders may be prosecuted on indictment. I think I am right in saying that this corresponds so far as rabies is concerned, with Clause 3 of the Diseases of Animals Bill which has recently been debated in your Lordships' House. I certainly support the increased maximum penalties which are the same both in that Bill and in this Order. There are two questions which I should like to ask the noble Lord. In relation to Article 9, where the Northern Ireland Department of Agriculture is empowered to designate by Order diseases carried in animals which constitute a risk to human health, it would be interesting if the noble Lord could either indicate today what the list is or perhaps tell the House where the list will be found.
With regard to Article 3, and this is my second question, there is the provision to be made for the destruction of wild animals and foxes in a rabies infected area. I do not contradict for one moment the need for this, but I really do question the advisability of the Government's current proposal to increase enormously the fee for gun licenses in Northern Ireland, which I think is relevant to this provision; because when the need arises for this work to be done—I hope it will not arise, but it may—it will then be found that there is far less control of wild animals, and therefore much greater need for clearance.
Perhaps, speaking from these Benches, I ought not to talk about the shooting of foxes, but if, as I saw quoted in another place, the licence fee is to be increased five-fold, I seriously consider that in wide rural areas of Northern Ireland the control of wild animals will suffer. I realise that security must always be in the fore-front of the Government's mind in Northern Ireland. But the farmer's gun is really not an Armalite rifle. I should be grateful if the Government could give a little more detail than was given in another place about their thinking on this matter.
We are grateful for the detailed explanation which the noble Lord has given about the criticism of the Statutory Instruments Committee. As I understood that criticism, it was simply that between the principal Act of 1958 and this Order there was some amending legislation and

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this was not readily discernible—discernable but not readily discernable—to the reader of the Order. If I may say so, I think that the very detailed explanation which the noble Lord gave still misses one point, which I am afraid I have made many times before but I make it again. It is that we do not have the advantage in either House of Parliament at Westminster of being able to read Stormont Hansards or being able readily to look at previous Northern Ireland legislation. Therefore, as the Statutory Instruments Committee have said, it is really necessary for this legislation which is coming before us in the form of Orders to be, to quote their words, "intelligible, especially to those not legally qualified ", and, my goodness, that includes me. I would, therefore, beg the noble Lord, even though the Government feel that they have got the drafting absolutely right, for reasons which we will be able to read in Hansard tomorrow, to consider that the prime consideration in bringing forward these Orders is clarity and helpfulness to those of us who have to try to understand them. With those two questions and with that small note of criticism, I support the passing of this Order.
Viscount SIMON: My Lords, before the noble Lord replies, may I put one question of a quite different nature? I was wondering whether in relation to this tightening up of the legislation in regard to rabies, there is any proposal for similar tightening up of legislation in the Republic of Ireland, because unless there is it seems to me that the effectiveness of the legislation in Northern Ireland will not be as great as it otherwise would be. If this has not been considered, would the Government consider making the suggestion to the Government of Eire?
Lord DONALDSON of KINGSBRIDGE: My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords for accepting this Order. I will deal first with one or two of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Belstead. The question of gun licences is entirely irrelevant, though I will answer it. It is irrelevant, because the destruction of animals in the declared areas which have to be cleared is the duty of the veterinary service of the Department of Agriculture. There is no question of farmers being asked to keep down animals in their areas by their
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shotguns. Having disposed of that, there is no secret about the increase in licence fees. From 1st January 1975 the fee for the grant of a firearms certificate became £10 and, for its renewal, variation or replacement, £5.
The increased level of fees is needed to cover the substantially increased cost of administering the scheme. They have been increased five-fold since they were last adjusted in 1970 from £2·10 to £10 on initial issue and from £105 to £5 on renewal. Renewal is required every three years. So the running cost of keeping a firearm licence is still only £167 per annum, which, in view of the enormous rise in costs, seems perfectly reasonable.
I would rather not discuss at this moment the policy of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State over firearms. It is being dealt with at this very time in discussions with various people in Northern Ireland, and I think something will be said about it before very long. Our general view is the fewer the better, while admitting that farmers, of course, have them. I am sorry that my elaborate explanation did not satisfy the noble Lord, but I have not the slightest doubt that when he gets hold of his legal advisers and reads it he will see no question of either inaccuracy or anything else. It is a question of two different conventions which are exercised in a perfectly normal way, and I think he will find that the explanation I gave him will hold up.
There is no difficulty in getting Hansard from Northern Ireland when there is an Assembly sitting. At the moment, of course, there is not. So far as I know, this is something which can be arranged through the Printed Paper Office when there are normal services. I do not think there is any embargo on Hansard to this House, and if anybody asks for it they will get it. It is as simple as that. I hope that when they do have an Assembly in Northern Ireland there will be many persons asking for their Hansard.
My Lords, the noble Lord asked where we could find out what diseases were zoonoses, where in the list they could be found, and whether they could be transmitted from animal to man. I am informed that the Order listing these will be published in the Statutory Rules of Northern Ireland by the Stationery Office

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and can be obtained there. It is a fairly long list. Finally, the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, asked what was the position in the Republic. We agree, of course, with the point made, that this would be a much more effective Order if it were reciprocal in the Republic. Copies of the Order have been sent there and they are considering it. I cannot say more than that. We hope very much, with the noble Lord, that this will be adopted. My Lords, I am grateful for the support for this Order.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

NHS HOSPITALS AND WOMEN PATIENTS
7.43 p.m.
Lord ABERDARE Lord ABERDARE rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they accept the need within the National Health Service for a hospital where women patients can be sure of treatment by women doctors.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the Rules of Order of this House result in some strange priorities in business, when we have to discuss the diseases of animals' in Northern Ireland before the diseases of human beings in England. This is, if, I may say so, a very important Question that I have on the Order Paper. I am sorry it has come on so late in the evening, because I know there are a number of Members of the House who are deeply interested and would have wished to be here if that had been possible. I am sure your Lordships will remember the original Question by the noble Lord, Lord Platt, which stirred up a great deal of interest in the House and which stimulated me to put down this Unstarred Question. The noble Lord, Lord Platt, is very sorry he cannot be here. My noble friend Lady Ruthven of Freeland had also wished to be here, and I am quite sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, would have wished to be here if possible.
My Question relates to the whole principle of a hospital within the National Health Service serving the special needs of women, but I am principally concerned this evening with the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital in the Euston Road. I make no apology for returning to this
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subject because the hospital is devoted to a very special need, and I hope to persuade the noble Lord and the Secretary of State that it is of critical importance that its future be decided by the Secretary of State herself and not simply as a result of a decision by the Area Health Authority. The fact is that only 27 per cent. of the patients who attend this hospital come from the Camden-Islington area and it would be quite wrong to take into account only the Area Health Authority's point of view. It is the Secretary of State who is ultimately responsible for the National Health Service and this hospital serves a national, and not merely an area, need.
May I very briefly remind your Lordships of its history. Its founder was Elizabeth Garrett Anderson, a pioneer woman doctor, whose idea it was to provide surgical and medical treatment for women patients by women doctors. It was established on the present site in 1872, and was paid for entirely by voluntary subscription. It is worth remembering that it was an entirely voluntary hospital, especially when one considers what must now be the value of the site it occupies in the Euston Road. In 1948 it: lost its independence and became part of the National Health Service, and since then it has had the misfortune to have three different managements. First, there was the board of governors of the Royal Free Hospital; then it came under the North London Group Hospital Management Committee; and now it is part of the South Camden District of Camden and Islington Area Health Authority. I make no criticism of those managements, of course, but from the point of view of the staff who work there, it is rather upsetting to have to endure three different managements.
In particular, the reorganisation of the National Health Service has made things very difficult. Until recently the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital consisted of three separate buildings. There was the hospital itself, in the Euston Road; there was the Garrett Anderson maternity home; and there was Rosa Morrison House, a pre-convalescent unit. All three buildings, after the reorganisation of the National Health Service, were in different health districts. The main Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital is in the South Camden district, the mater-

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nity home in the North Camden District, although it is managed from the South, and the Rosa Morrison House comes in Barnet.
I said "until recently" because some two years ago Rosa Morrison House was taken for urgent use by another hospital authority, thereby depriving the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital of some very valuable beds. As your Lordships will realise, pre-convalescent beds are most useful in freeing beds for acute patients in the main hospital. Yet I am informed that this valuable pre-convalescent unit now stands empty, except for one doctor and his family who live there. That does not seem to me a very good use of the facilities. Now, with the opening of the new Royal Free Hospital in North Camden, which has its own maternity services, the Garrett Anderson maternity home is threatened. It is not a particularly convenient building, but it provides maternity services for those who wish to be cared for in childbirth by women doctors. There are quite a few women—Muslim women, Orthodox Jewish women—who for religious reasons need that kind of care, and the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital without its own maternity beds is really inconceivable.
I should have thought that by far the better solution would be to move those beds from the Garrett Anderson maternity home into the main hospital. There is room for them where now there is an area with paediatric beds; and for a comparatively small expenditure these maternity beds could be integrated into the main hospital. The result would be an overall saving in running costs.
The hospital faces another difficulty in relation to its nursing staff. It used to form part of the nurse training school of the North London Group. Now the General Nursing Council has withdrawn recognition on two grounds: first, that the hospital does not provide experience not available elsewhere; and, secondly, the physical conditions of the hospital. However, these have been improved since the General Nursing Council reported, and with more finance could be improved still further.
The position now is that there is a new nurse training school at the new Royal Free Hospital, and a nurse train-
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ing scheme in full flood—I think an experimental one—at the University College Hospital. In these circumstances, it is obvious that a small hospital cannot compete, and in June is to lose all its student nurses. No wonder that those who have devoted their lives to this hospital feel desperate. A small and excellent hospital, providing a unique service to women, is being slowly throttled out of existence. Buildings now over a hundred years old, but still solid, are being allowed to deteriorate; staff are being replaced by locums instead of permanent members; insecurity is leading to resignations and, incidentally, is affecting morale.
My Question asks whether the Government "accept the need within the National Health Service for a hospital where women patients can be sure of treatment by women doctors". It therefore covers also the South London Hospital which provides a similar service for women, although, so far as I know, at the moment it is not under a threat of closure. But it is the answer to this general question on which the future of the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital depends.
It does not serve a district need nor an area need. As I have already said, only 27 per cent. of its patients come from the Camden-Islington area; 98 per cent. of them come from the South-East of England as a whole. When I visited the hospital recently, there was a lady from the Sudan who had specially come over with her husband to go to that hospital. It is no good putting the problem to the Area Health Authority; it is a national problem to which the Secretary of State must give an answer. I hope that, as a woman, she will see the need to retain this hospital.
Why should we destroy a small, specialised, highly successful hospital for the sake of size and uniformity? Certainly none of the patients who have been there would wish this to happen. Support has been coming in from all over the country, and, when I last heard, there were already over 10,000 signatures. I ask the Government to recognise that the original initiative of Elizabeth Garrett Anderson has demonstrated by its very success that a need exists for such a hospital as this. I ask them to agree that it is a national need which demands national support;

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and this should be made available to the district from national funds.
I have one suggestion to make: if the Government will consider making special funds available to keep the hospital going, I would suggest that in return the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital itself should be allowed to appeal for funds to support its work. I have no doubt that —in view of its place in women's affections, and the support that it enjoys from women's organisations all over the country —such an appeal could raise very large sums of money. I hope that this would therefore go to reduce the amount of money that the Government themselves might have to find to keep the hospital going.
Above all, I ask the Government for a quick decision. Those who work in the hospital will fight to the last to keep it open, but even they would prefer to know soon if the decision goes against them, rather than suffer a lingering death of slow attrition. But best of all let the hospital be given a new lease of life to continue to provide devoted service to women, and to further the ideals of Elizabeth Garrett Anderson.
7.55 p.m.
The Earl of KIMBERLEY: My Lords, I should like to say how much I am in agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Aberdure, in what he has said. He went over the original objects of the hospital, which I should like to repeat. It was originally built for women patients to be cared for by women doctors, for the training of nurses, and the training of women doctors. These objects still apply today. Not only do many British women go to it but, as the noble Lord said, and as the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, said a few weeks ago, there are many women of other faiths who go to this hospital, whether they be Muslims or of the Jewish faith, because they like seeing a lady doctor. I should add here that at one time I had a lady doctor, and I can firmly recommend them as being every bit as good as any man. I should like to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they realise that there have been over 10,000 signatures collected for retaining this hospital.
I should now like to go into some possible reasons for the closure, and make some suggestions as to why it need not
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be closed. One of the reasons that I was given was that there is no need for the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital to exist any more. One answer to that is that the hospital is as full as it ever was. Another point was that it does not fit in with the reorganisation, or fulfil the local district needs. The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, has already said that 98 per cent. of the patients come from the South of England, and therefore it is a very special hospital and it could be funded from special funds. Another reason given for closure is that the buildings are old and shabby. But so are the majority of other hospitals in this country! Is there any reason why it could not be upgraded? Even if it was eventually rebuilt—because the present site must be extremely valuable land—it could be resited. At least it should be preserved, even if not on the same site.
The noble Lord, Lord Platt, said on 21st January that the school of nursing has been discontinued, and the reason given was that it was too small and too limited. But alternative arrangements are already being made, as the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, said, and even better arrangements could be made in the future. Perhaps Her Majesty's Government could tell me why they feel that the nurses do not have wide enough experience and learning at Elizabeth Garrett Anderson.
However, most important, in my humble opinion, is that the work and the traditions of service, and of individual attention to women patients, are maintained. The Elizabeth Garrett Anderson must not be closed for the sake of the stroke of a pen, or of red tape, bureaucracy, whatever you call it. I am sure that most Members of your Lordships' Chamber would agree. There is still, and there always will be, a need for a hospital for women, nursed by women, and attended by women doctors.
7.59 p.m.
Lord HUNT of FAWLEY: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Aberdare for introducing this debate. The problem of whether or not there is a need for a hospital staffed by women doctors for women patients is clearly bound up with the future of the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital, about which

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questions were asked in your Lordships' House on 21st January.
Over the years, it has been my privilege, as a doctor, to have looked after certain members of the Anderson family, and I know how proud they have all been of their pioneering medical ancestor, our first woman doctor— Elizabeth Garrett Anderson—who founded in Seymour Place, in 1866, a dispensary for poor women and children. In 1872 she built The New Hospital for Women in Marylebone Road, which was paid for by womens' organisations and members of the Anderson family. This hospital was developed for two main reasons: To have some of the first women doctors on its staff in many specialities (by no means only gynaecology and obstetrics) at a time when they had the greatest difficulty in being appointed to other hospitals; and as a place where women patients could be treated only by women. In 1899 this hospital was rebuilt on its present site in Euston Road; and in 1917, when Elizabeth Garrett Anderson died, it was renamed after her.
Some of my patients have been treated in this hospital, and I know how useful it has proved and how well it has fulfilled its two main functions. It is almost unique because, because so far as I know, there is only one other hospital in England run by women for women—the South London Hospital for Women and Children, which docs take young gentlemen up to the age of 10. In the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital not only the doctors are women but also the nurses, medical students and student nurses, and, also, very nearly all the rest of the staff. Just before the war there was a male stoker, but he was kept underground! Since then, over a period of years, they have had one male consultant anaesthetist and two registrar anaesthetists, one male consultant radiologist, and several male porters.
In our gardens, my Lords, I am sure that many of us must have found that it is usually a mistake to cut down, without very careful thought, indeed, a tree which has been growing for more than 100 years, unless it is certainly dying, is in the wrong place, doing harm to or taking water or nourishment away from other plants, and until something really better has been found to replace it. This famous hospital which we are discussing this evening is
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more than 100 years old. It has been somewhat starved of funds lately, and it is not altogether healthy. It has had one branch lopped off already (its pre-convalescent home in Barnet); it is losing another this spring when its student nurses are being removed; and a further branch (its maternity home in Hampstead) is now in imminent danger of being closed. Its main trunk, however, still flourishes, albeit under somewhat difficult conditions.
I have spoken to senior members of its staff and to the Medical Officer of the Camden and Islington Area Health Authority. There are, without doubt, a great many things wrong with this hospital, and it is generally agreed that the present overall situation is untenable. Among the disadvantages is the fact that it is on rather a noisy site on Euston Road —a site which was chosen deliberately near to several railway termini for the convenience of patients coming from the Northern Home Counties and the Midlands. Its fabric is outworn; one of its two lifts needs to be replaced. Paying for this hospital is difficult because it has a wide catchment area: only about one quarter of its patients come from Camden and Islington; about four-fifths are from London postal districts, and 98 per cent. are from South-East England, mostly from North of the Thames; 2 per cent. come from further afield, and are, perhaps, of Moslem faith from overseas. For religious or cultural reasons, they do not wish to be looked after by men.
It has 107 beds for a great variety of medical services. With its maternity home, it has 19 consultants, five locum consultants and just over 20 junior medical staff. All its consultants work part-time in the National Health Service —in general medicine (including diabetes), general surgery (including breast diseases and urology), gynaecology (30 beds), with family planning and fertility clinics, dermatology, rheumatology, neurology, psychiatry and physical medicine; in addition, anaesthetists and pathologists are required. Its obstetric service—with accompanying pediatric cots—and antenatal and postnatal care—some of the most important parts of a hospital for women—was moved 27 years ago to Hampstead where its maternity home has 32 beds; but this is likely to be closed shortly for various reasons, one of which

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is that there is an excess of maternity beds around there. The consultants hope that these maternity beds will be returned to the main Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital where, by right, they should be; but the Area Health Authority, I believe, would like to see them absorbed by the new Royal Free Hospital. Within the main hospital there are four private beds, usually filled with patients from overseas or from the National Health Service, and two National Health Service amenity beds which are often occupied by retired nurses or doctors.
Just over 100 female beds is not considered enough to give student nurses a comprehensive training, even though some of these students have been seconded to other hospitals, with men patients, as they were to the Seamen's Hospital at Greenwich before they went to hospitals in the North London Group. The recent reorganisation of the National Health Service has taken the nurses' training school of this group into another district. For these and other reasons, the General Nursing Council, as you have already heard, is shortly to withdraw its approval for the training of student nurses at the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital, although it is fully recognised how excellent has been the nurses' training which has taken place there. When student nurses are withdrawn, they will have to be replaced by fully-trained, perhaps agency, nurses who will be more expensive.
On the other hand, my Lords, this hospital has many advantages. With its fine pioneering traditions, and the splendid work which has been done in it for more than 100 years, the consultants and sisters are proud and happy to work there, and the great majority of the patients are contented, too. The nursing care is, without doubt, splendid; and the gynaecological teaching of women students from the Royal Free Hospital has been excellent. Another advantage is that this hospital has enabled young married women doctors to work there part-time, on a sessional basis, allowing them to keep in touch with their profession and promote their continuing medical education, between having babies or while looking after their families. Later, when their children have grown up they can then return efficiently to full-time specialist posts or go into general practice.
There is no doubt whatever, my Lords, that some women patients, especially those
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who are shy or adolescent, like to be cared for by women doctors and not only for gynaecological and obstetric conditions; just as most men prefer to be looked after by male doctors and not only for particularly masculine complaints. Some people might be tempted to ask how women in other parts of the country get on, and are the two women-for-women hospitals in London really necessary? My answer to that would be that if there were more of such hospitals in other parts of England they would almost certainly be used and it is likely that many women patients would be happier. There is something attractive to many patients, to their doctors and to staff about smaller hospitals which tend to be more friendly and personal than the very large ones and which are often preferred for the care of common or simple complaints, for which expensive equipment or services are not required.
The problems we had a few years ago with small general-practitioner or cottage hospitals were, I know, quite different from those which we are now discussing; but in some ways they were comparable. For administrative convenience, and for economy, an effort was made, and much pressure was brought to bear, to close many of these smaller hospitals which doctors, their patients, and their patients' relatives: and friends had found so very useful and convenient over the years. After much discussion and heart-burning, common sense prevailed; and many of these small hospitals have now been preserved and are still doing splendid work, having been brought up-to-date and made more efficient, perhaps with modifications and adaptation to wider uses, with more staff than before, and even under a new name —"community hospitals ". In considering the problems of the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital, we all realise that the opening of the new Royal Free Hospital in the same area merits a most careful reassessment of local funds, administrative arrangements and of medical staff and nursing resources. Administration and finance are fundamental; but other things are important, too—personal, humanitarian, emotional, and to some extent traditional factors play a major role which must be taken into account, and cannot be ignored.
What of the future of the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital? Is it viable?

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Should it be wound down or closed quickly? If not, how best can it survive and even grow? Its future may well be much brighter than many people expect. There is no serious vendetta between the Area Health Authority for Camden/ Islington and the senior staff of the hospital. They both want to find the best possible solution of this difficult problem. Friendly discussions are already taking place between them, and with the local community health council. I have heard today that a letter has been received which suggests that the Department of Health and Social Security is taking a special interest also. More than 10,000 signatures have been obtained, mostly from women, supporting a petition in favour of keeping this hospital open; and nearly all the general practitioners who send patients to it want it to continue, too. As it is not altogether a local hospital, methods of paying for it will have to be worked out between the Department of Health and Social Security and the area and district health authorities. There is an urgent need now for a lead to be given by the Department of Health and Social Security and by the Secretary of State for Social Services who is ultimately responsible for the future of this hospital and its maternity home, and for the financing of both.
Is it to be refurbished on its present, valuable site, at considerable expense, being loosely linked to a larger hospital in the same district, such as University College Hospital, which will allow it to use certain expensive diagnostic and treatment equipment, and medical or nursing training facilities? Is it to be rebuilt on another site, which will be more expensive still? Is it to be integrated or incorporated into a larger hospital not far away, its staff being given a few wards or a wing allocated to the treatment of women by women, with a plaque commemorating Elizabeth Garrett Anderson on its walls? We must remember that some large hospitals are still uncertain of their own futures; and not all accept the principle of women being treated only by women even in a few of their wards. There is an enormous difference in status and prestige between working in one's own hospital bearing a famous name, with a great and proud tradition behind it, and being relegated to just a few wards of a
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much larger hospital which has been kind enough to accommodate a poorer and older neighbour. It has been said that integration is what the cat offered the canary; and if you want the canary to sing it should be as an equal partner.
In conclusion, my Lords, I should like to repeat that the hospital founded by Elizabeth Garrett Anderson has been in use now for more than a century. It has been giving extremely valuable and particular services to many women consultants and innumerable women patients, and it would be more than ironical to abolish it during the current International Women's Year! Even if it is not pulled down, many doctors and patients will be most upset if it were to lose its identity and character. A recent report from the South Camden Community Health Centre said that suggestions had been made for adapting the building as a psychiatric day-centre or a centre for inadequate mothers. I, as a practising doctor, would like to add my name to those who are making a plea for the preservation, if this is reasonably possible, of its present building, its name, its work and of everything else for which it stands, while fitting it efficiently into the framework of our National Health Service as this is organised at present in North London. If it cannot be preserved, one hopes that a suitable alternative will be found, nearby, before the old hospital is closed down.
There is need, now, for a wide assessment throughout the country of how many women really do prefer to be looked after by women doctors. If this number is found to be significant, I should like to make another plea for wards, clinics or departments named after distinguished women doctors, local or otherwise, to be developed in or near district general hospitals in other parts of Britain in which women can be cared for by women. This would widen the field of work of many women consultants some of whom still meet a certain degree of prejudice against them when they apply for hospital appointments; it would make many women patients throughout the country happy; and it would be in keeping with the wonderfully courageous, pioneering spirit of Elizabeth Garrett Anderson herself and of those who worked with her 100 years ago.
8.18 p.m.
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: My Lords, I apologise for entering this debate not having put my name down, but at this late hour I shall trespass on the time of your Lordships for only about four minutes. But I think that from this side of the House there should be some "say so "about this fundamental problem. I have listened with great interest to the cogent and constructive statement made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Fawley, who is a distinguished member of the medical profession, who speaks with authority and who has made a constructive case. I have listened to all the speakers except for one moment when I had to leave the Chamber, but I would enter a caveat. I think that the medical profession should tread softly when it is talking about a private medical service. The majesty of the National Health system, whatever criticisms it may have had, is unmatched anywhere else in the world. If we were to follow an arid agreement that we would sweep back into the old private system of medicine that I knew as a child in South Wales, all those ideas would go to the wall.
Nevertheless, I feel that I must support the plea. I hope that we will get an answer to the main question, because the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, to whom I also listened with interest (I always do, because he takes such care to put his point of view without acerbity and constructively) is to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they accept the need within the National Health Service—this is the 64,000 dollar question—for a hospital where women patients can be sure of treatment by women doctors. It may seem strange towards the end of the permissive 20th century, when there is probably more permissiveness than in the days of the 18th century and even than in the 13th century, to find this plea. Nevertheless, those of us like the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare—who himself comes from Wales—know that in the remoter parts of these islands there are still women who want to be tended in this way. While I would not encourage blind prejudice when there may be first-class medical attention from a male doctor who is present, such as sometimes occurs with Jehovah's Witnesses who allow themselves to die refusing medical attention, there should be within
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our Health Service something which could meet the demands of women who want women doctors.
There was no specific mention of the hospital in the Unstarred Question, but I should like to add to the plea that, in International Women's Year, we should not see the demise of this wonderful system of hospitalisation. Furthermore, when the Opposition have had the courage: to pick a woman as the Leader of a great and historic British political Party, it would be sad if we had no agreement in the National Health Service that women patients could be attended by women doctors. I should like to press my own Front Bench, even if they cannot give a constructive answer tonight to what the noble Lords, Lord Aberdare and Lord Hunt of Fawley, and the noble Earl, Lord Kimberley, have said, to say that some formula can be found by which, under the National Health system—once we have overcome the bitterness that recently seems to have crept in over consultants and so on—the people of Britain will be prepared to bear the burden of this demand on the part of some women.
Lord ABERDARE: My Lords, I hope the noble Lord realises that the hospital in question is now part of the National Health Service. It is not a private hospital. It is providing these facilities now and all we want is that the National Health Service should continue to support it.
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: My Lords, it would not be able to keep going if it did not. It is not mentioned here— that is the point. I absolutely agree that I should like us to find a formula by which the hospital could be kept alive and I was particularly interested in the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Fawley, about Muslim, Jewish and other women who have religious views. I must not use the word "prejudice". We have to be careful when we apply that word to another person's belief in his or her God. From the therapeutic point of view and for the cure of the illness, the person in question may believe what he or she wants to believe and, if it is a woman and she wants a woman doctor to attend her, I believe that her chances of being cured—though I could not argue this point with the medical profession—would

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be slightly improved by having the satisfaction of receiving the kind of medical attention for which she has asked. My Lords, having said that—and I have taken five minutes instead of four—I appeal to my colleagues on the Front Bench to tell us whether there is some formula by means of which this hospital can be kept going, and kept going worthily in this international Women's Year.
8.22 p.m.
Baroness ELLIOT of HARWOOD: My Lords, I do not want to delay the Answer which is to be given by the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, for more than a moment but, as the only woman in your Lordships' House tonight—I beg the noble Baroness's pardon; I see that the Chief Whip has come in—I should like to say that I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill and Lady Phillips, share the same view as has been so excellently put forward by my noble friend Lord Aberdare, and so convincingly expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Fawley. I should also like to add the voice of a woman to the plea that has been made to the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell. to consider this problem carefully and to approach it very sympathetically indeed.
Though I do not know the hospital in question, I have followed the correspondence in The Times and various other newspapers, and the strong pleas that are being made that the hospital should continue in the traditions in which it has been built up. Though they are perhaps not unique, they fill a gap and a need in the Health Service and I am sure that the noble Lord will give us a very sympathetic hearing on this matter. I should like to support by noble friend Lord Aberdare and the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, in their appeal.
8.24 p.m.
Lord SEGAL: My Lords, I, too, refrained from putting my name down on the list of speakers. I did so for the reason that the more deeply I delved into the evidence for the continuation of this admirable hospital and the more I was able to consider that evidence, the more reluctant I became to speak too dogmatically on one side. However, I hope that my noble friend Lord Wells-Pestell, when he comes to reply, will be
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able to make out a really strong case for justification of three important points which have been heard. First, there is the justification for having a women's hospital staffed solely by women. We have been told that only two remain, both in London. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Fawley, made a very strong case for building new hospitals exclusively for woman patients. That is, I imagine, a policy which any Government would be bound to defer. But what is the justification for maintaining a small hospital in these days? When I was faced, as a medical student, with the choice between receiving training in a small or a large hospital, I opted without the slightest tinge of regret for a small hospital. My only regret subsequently has been that that small hospital—the Westminster Hospital—was later converted from a small establishment with 250 beds, on a magnificent site in Broad Sanctuary, between Westminster Abbey and the Methodist Central Hall, to another site in Horseferry Road and transformed into a large hospital with between 500 and 600 beds. At once it lost its intimate, personal family character, which to me is a source of great regret. The same thing has happened to Charing Cross Hospital, which was also located on a magnificent site right in the centre of London and is now a large hospital somewhere down the Fulham Road. One can only look back on these events with enormous regret.
The other point is how far there is justification on religious grounds for maintaining a hospital. We have heard of the sensitivity of members of different faiths. I should like to feel that in any hospital those deep religious feelings would always be taken into account. Whether that presents a case for a special hospital staffed exclusively by women to meet those sensitivities is another matter altogether. However, I think that we all realise that the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital is a hospital of quite outstanding traditions which has been working for a number of years under appalling difficulties. First, it suffered a crippling blow with the withdrawal of its facilities as a hospital for the training of nurses. I should like to know how far that privilege could be restored to the hospital. I should also like to know, as the hospital has pleaded on so many

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occasions for improvement of the physical conditions under which the staff have to work, what can be done about this?
I can see no mention in the reports of how far the hospital has been able to go to meet these crippling physical handicaps. So far from agreeing with the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, that a decision must be reached quickly to put the hospital out of its suspense—and, as we know, that suspense has been continuing for many years—I should like to ask my noble friend Lord Wells-Pestell, whether a thorough inquiry has been made into the improvements which the hospital has already effected in its physical conditions? We know that it is a hospital which is well over 100 years old, but that does not necessarily debar it from being modernised and extended, even on its existing site. Let us remember that originally the hospital came in under the National Health Service. It is a tribute to the hospital that it willingly undertook to serve under certain restrictions and difficulties. I imagine that the difficulties were mainly of a financial nature.
But let us remember that there is one hospital in London today that is still standing outside the National Health Service. This hospital was originally founded for the benefit of trade union patients. It has been able to survive only because of the support it has received from the trade unions. I refer to the Manor House Hospital. Here we have an instance where, for some reason or another, conditions of joining the National Health Service do not apply. Whatever the justification may be on the part of this hospital for staying out of the National Health Service, I believe the only answer is that it is able to maintain itself financially through the contributions of the trade unions and does not fall into the National Health Service scheme which, after all, was initiated by a Labour Government.
These are all factors which must be taken into account. No more sympathetic and understanding Minister has been able to speak for the Department of Health and Social Security in my long recollection than the present spokesman on our Government Front Bench. We know how deeply he feels on these matters; we know the extent of his sympathy and—
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as has been mentioned already this evening—we know of the extraordinary degree of physical tenacity with which he has placed himself repeatedly at the disposal of this House. I hope that when the time comes to make out the case for the closing of this great and historic institution, the Government will be able to make out a really strong and convincing case to justify their action.
8.32 p.m.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, this is indeed International Women's Year, because I gather that the mantle of my noble friend Lady Summerskill has fallen upon the shoulders of, shall I say, the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare. I think she would be very pleased with him were she here, and certainly she will be very pleased when she reads Hansard. My I noble friend Lord Davies of Leek has said he hopes that there will be an Answer to the Question on the Order Paper. There will be an Answer—but whether it is a satisfactory Answer remains to be seen. The noble Lord's Question has given rise not only to an interesting discussion but to a rather interesting situation. Nowhere in the Question are the Government asked to express an opinion about the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital, and I see it as my duty tonight to answer the Question rather than to permit the Question to be used as a vehicle for raising the matter of the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital. However, I would not treat the noble Lord in that way and I will make some references to that hospital. One must bear in mind, however, that it can be only a reference, because of the reasons I have given.
It is important to set the question of the treatment of women patients by women doctors in its context. I have said before and I will say it again, that I am very much impressed by the very balanced argument which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Fawley, has put tonight, and which he always puts, in which he helped the House, and certainly Ministers, by putting forward the pros and cons.
We have to bear in mind that under the National Health Service Reorganisation Act 1973, the Secretary of State for Social Services and the Secretary of State for Wales have a duty to provide, through-out England and Wales., hospital accommodation and such other services as are

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required for the diagnosis and treatment of illness, and here I quote the Act
"to such extent as she considers necessary to meet all reasonable requirements".
The operative phrase there is, "reasonable requirements". I do not want to discuss at this stage whether or not the matter before your Lordships' House is reasonable. This is a matter that must be decided, and is in the process of being decided; but I will come to that in a moment or two. There is a very wide responsibility in relation to diagnosis and treatment, and also a very wide discretion as to how this responsibility should be carried out.
The key to the use of this discretion is however clear. Hospital facilities have to be organised to meet the needs of the community as a whole, having regard of course to available resources. The need for health facilities and indeed the demand for them varies from locality to locality depending on, for example, the age structure of the population and the patterns of morbidity and mortality. Moreover, ever since 1948 we have seen an increase in the complexity of medical care and an ever-increasing recognition of interdependence of the various branches of medicine in the treatment of the individual patient. Accordingly the pattern of hospitals which has been developing is the replacement of the smaller and single speciality hospitals by district general hospitals. This is what the 1973 Act was asked to do, and it is something which Parliament accepted.
These hospitals, whether in one new building or operating as an integrated organism from several new or existing buildings, provide facilities covering all major specialities including gynaecology, obstetrics, geriatrics, psychiatry and surgery. Additionally in the district there will be community hospitals for those patients in need of in-patient treatment of a less specialised nature than that generally provided at the district general hospital. In this way the most up to date and appropriate care of the patient and the most economical use of skilled man-power and technical facilities can be achieved. This is something we cannot afford to ignore. We have to provide on a general district basis not only appropriate care, but economical skill on manpower and technical facilities. What has never been possible is to guarantee that
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patients attending, or being admitted to, a hospital can designate the doctor who is to treat them; or, equally, can specify that they are to be treated by doctors, or other staff, of one particular category.
It has therefore never been possible to guarantee for the population as a whole that a patient can be seen by a doctor of one particular sex. I think the practical reasons for this must be fairly obvious. For instance, it would mean discriminating between the sexes in the appointment to hospital posts. Moreover, it would be impossible in hospitals generally to ensure that a doctor of one particular sex was always available during holidays, or at night to deal with emergencies. It would raise a whole series of problems. But this does not mean that the wishes of patients are to be ignored.
Within the general framework of the organisation of hospital services, efforts are made to meet the susceptibilities of individuals or groups in so far as this can be done in a way which does not unduly disrupt the services for the generality of patients. Thus at hospitals where there are women doctors in the relevant specially, we would hope that patients who, on conscientious or other serious grounds, want to see a woman doctor could be allowed to do so, provided that this could be done without disturbing the work or imposing too great a burden on the individual doctor. How far this sort of arrangement is practicable in individual hospitals is, of course, dependent on the local circumstances.
Furthermore, where there is evidence of demand, perhaps from religious or ethnic groups or from women generally, health authorities would no doubt be willing to consider notifying the groups who make representations of the names of hospitals in their districts which have women doctors, and notifying to general practitioners the names of hospitals having women consultants to whom women patients could be referred if they so wished. This, then, is the general position. I turn now to the particular topic of single-sex hospitals.
The noble Lord's Question refers to the need for a hospital within the National Health Service which would satisfy the wish of women patients to be seen by women doctors. I cannot imagine that the provision of one hospital, even one based in London, could be a satisfactory

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way of meeting the wishes of women in the country as a whole, who would prefer to be seen by women doctors. Nor would the Government consider that the establishment of one or more new single sex hospitals would be desirable. The practical problems of staffing and the difficulty of assessing the demand for this facility would mean a wasteful use of resources of all kinds.
Nevertheless we would not want to close any existing single-sex hospital if it was giving a useful service to the community, so long as it remained viable, and provided that its costs were not excessive in relation to the benefits provided. The latter point is important because if a health authority is required to keep open a hospital it does not need, then it is forced to spend its resources in an inefficient manner at the expense of leaving other health needs unmet.
I do not want to sit down before making some reference to the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital because obviously this was in the mind of the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, and of others who spoke. But I am in a difficult position and I want to be frank about it. I am not in a position to add to what I told your Lordships as recently as the 21st January last—which is just over three weeks ago. The position has not moved all that fast. It cannot move very fast when negotiations are going on, not only with one group but with a number of groups within the medical profession.
Because the hospital was founded with certain special objects, no decision on its future can, as I said on 21st January, be taken without the consent of the Secretary of State. The discussions which have taken place up till recently were informal only. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Services has now authorised the Area Hospital Authority to proceed to formal consultation on the future of the hospital. This was a point raised by Lord Hunt of Fawley. The Community Health Council will, of course, be closely involved in any consideration given to the future of the hospital. Let us say at this stage that the Community Health Council is in existence to be concerned with, and to concern itself with, the needs of the people. This is perhaps one of the great features of the Community Health Council.
Lord ABERDARE: My Lords, the Community Health Council is interested only in its district and in its district needs and will no doubt look on the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital from the point of view of serving the district. What we have all been trying to say is that this hospital is serving a need that I expressed as a national need, or a need for the whole of South-East England. It is this aspect of the hospital which it is so important to emphasise.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, with respect, I think that the noble Lord would be on stronger ground to mention that something like 84 per cent. of the women attending this hospital come from the London postal district.
Lord ABERDARE: My Lords, some 98 per cent. come from the whole of the South-East of England.
Lord WELLS-PESTELL: Yes, my Lords, this is true. But there are these figures; and 84 per cent. of the people who attend come from the London postal districts while 98 per cent. come from the whole of the South-East of England. These figures are not incompatible.
The Area Health Authority has agreed that the necessary funds should be made available to overcome extra costs arising from the: need to recruit qualified nursing staff to replace student nurses as they are withdrawn until such time as a review of the hospital has been completed. I do not think that this is a matter which can be hurried. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Fawley, will know, when a matter of this kind is being considered there have to be rather long and deep consultations at a number of hospitals. I can say that those consultations are taking place. I can say that the ultimate decision has to be made by the Secretary of State.
I think that the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, has rendered a service in bringing this particular matter before your Lordships in the form of an Unstarred Question. Those noble Lords who have taken part in the debate in the main have some real knowledge of what is needed. I am certain that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State will read this debate with some considerable interest.

SOCIAL SECURITY BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills with Amendments and recommited to a Committee of the Whole House; Bill to be printed as amended.
SOCIAL SECURITY (NORTHERN IRELAND) BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills with Amendments and recommended to a Committee of the Whole House; Bill to be printed as amended.
INDUSTRIAL INJURIES AND DISEASES OLD CASES) BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills with Amendments and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House; Bill to be printed as amended.
INDUSTRIAL INJURIES AND DISEASES (NORTHERN IRELAND OLD CASES) BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills with Amendments and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House; Bill to be printed as amended.
SOCIAL SECURITY (CONSEQUENTIAL PROVISIONS) BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills with Amendments and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House; Bill to be printed as amended.
  WAR WIDOWS: PENSIONS AND BENEFITS
  WAR WIDOWS: PENSIONS AND BENEFITS