Sitting of 12 February 1975

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS
  PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (FISHGUARD AND GOODWICK HARBOUR) BILL
  Read the Third time and passed.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  SCOTLAND

    Health Centres
    Dr. Millerasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will publish a list of health centres in Scotland at which pharmaceutical services are presently available; whether his Department has undertaken any investigation to determine if such services could offer savings to the National Health Service; and if he will make a statement.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Robert Hughes): Pharmaceutical services are at present provided in the health centres at Sighthill, Edinburgh and Woodside, Glasgow. Health centres under construction at Kirkcaldy and Peterhead include pharmacies.
    The present policy is to offer local chemists the opportunity to form a consortium to operate a pharmacy in any proposed health centre. Such arrangements do not alter the total cost of pharmaceutical services in the area served.
    Dr. Miller: Is my hon. Friend aware that I give him two cheers for that reply? Does he not realise that the provision of a facility such as this would do two things? First, it would provide a considerable amount of finance for the
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    running of the health centre. Second, it would provide a facility to patients using the health centre, without which the whole concept of the health centre, with its medical, dental, radiological and other ancillary services, is not complete?
    Mr. Hughes: I accept what my hon. Friend says. I shall certainly consider any evidence he is prepared to submit to me.
    Mr. Canavan: Will my hon. Friend clarify one point? Will the pharmacists who will work in the health centres be directly employed, on a salary basis, by the health board or will they merely be agents of some private enterprise which will use the health centre as a branch of its own business?
    Mr. Hughes: The current position is that ordinary commercial pharmacists take up accommodation in the same way as doctors and dentists.

    Young Offenders
    Mr. Buchananasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what extra back-up resources in terms of trained staff and residential accommodation have been provided in the Glasgow area to cope with young offenders within the terms of the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968.
    Mr. Robert Hughes: The number of headquarters and field-work staff in Glasgow social work department has increased from 186 in 1970 to over 300. A number of projects providing residential accommodation for children and young people are in progress, and additional places are being provided at two List D schools near Glasgow.
    Mr. Buchanan: It is gratifying to hear that some improvement is being made, but my hon. Friend will understand that many social work departments are losing credibility because the social workers do not have enough remedial places to which to send children requiring help, and that we are abysmally short of residential accommodation, hostel accommodaion and specialist resources. Will he do everything in his power to see that the social workers get the tools to do the job?
    Mr. Hughes: Yes. Additional accommodation is in prospect. For example, a unit of 18 places is being built at St.

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    Mary's School, Bishopbriggs, and 41 additional places are being provided at St. Philip's School, Aidrie.
    The report on the rate support grant order shows that there is allowance for increased staffing during the year, and other commitments. Certainly we shall encourage local authorities to give the back-up which the social workers require.
    Mr. Fairbairn: What regulations apply to those who are in List D schools as to the age at which they are allowed to get out of the schools, on what conditions they are allowed to come out of the schools, what sums of money are given to them when they leave the schools, and what other regulations apply to these people?
    Mr. Hughes: I think that the hon. and learned Gentleman should table a Question seeking that information.

    Assembly
    Mr. Rifkindasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received with regard to the powers of the proposed Scottish Assembly.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Harry Ewing): I have received representations with regard to the transfer to the Scottish Assembly of many aspects of Government functions with appropriate powers. These representations have come from a wide range of interested parties in Scotland, mainly in response to the Government's consultative document published on 3rd June 1974.
    Mr. Rifkind: I am grateful to the Minister. Taking into account the Government's new approach to the question of collective responsibility, will he distinguish between his own published views on these matters and the views of the Government of which he is a member? Will he confirm that the Government will not forfeit Scotland's right to a place in the Cabinet or her entitlement to benefit from the future location of industry or employment in parts of the United Kingdom as determined by United Kingdom Ministers?
    Mr. Ewing: I am really surprised at the implication of that supplementary question. In all fairness, I thought that the hon. Gentleman made a first-class
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    concluding speech on the first day of the debate on devolution. The Government are committed without any reservation to the retention of the Secretary of State for Scotland in the Cabinet, and to 71 Members of Parliament.
    Dr. Miller: Will my hon. Friend indicate when these representations will come to an end and when the Government will bring forward their firm proposals for the Scottish Assembly?
    Mr. Ewing: The question of representations will obviously be a continuing one. At this stage it is impossible to say when the Government will be in a position to bring forward firm proposals to the House. These matters were debated on Monday and Tuesday of last week, and my right hon. Friends the Leader of the House and the Secretary of State did give an answer in kind to the questions which are now being asked.
    Mr. Reid: Can the hon. Gentleman say when the Scottish Assembly will be established?
    Mr. Ewing: I should first of all apologise to the hon. Member that Scottish Question Time is being held in the middle of his week's holiday. We hope to keep to the timetable which the Leader of the House mentioned in the concluding speech in the debate on the Queen's Speech. At the same time, I should say that it is the Government's firm intention to get the matter right. If this means taking a bit longer, we feel sure that the people of Scotland will accept this as right and proper in all the circumstances.
    Mr. Robin F. Cook: Coming back to the powers of the Scottish Assembly, has my hon. Friend taken note of the observation of the Kilbrandon Commission that the Stormont Government had substantial powers over trade and industry which they chose not to use because they found it impracticable to do so within an integrated economy?
    Mr. Ewing: Yes, the Government have taken note of the reference to the Stormont situation in the Kilbrandon Report. I should mention that there is a very interesting paragraph in Lord O'Neill's book on this matter. That is one of the points of which we have taken note.

    Capital Transfer Tax
    Mr. Corrieasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has received with regard to the effect of the proposed capital transfer tax on farming in Scotland.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Hugh D. Brown): I have had representations about the possible adverse effects of the tax on farming structure and efficiency from the National Farmers' Union of Scotland and the Scottish Landowners' Federation, and from a few individual farmers.
    Mr. Corrie: I should first declare an interest in this matter. Does the Minister feel that a son or daughter has the right to inherit the father's business, be it a small business or a farm? Does he not feel that the confiscation level of CTT will mean that large units will be broken up and will become less efficient?
    Mr. Brown: I do not think there is any inherent right for sons or daughters in this matter. They may not necessarily wish to inherit a farm. In order that they should be treated fairly, and bearing in mind that the argument is that one should ensure the efficiency of farming, I assure the hon. Gentleman that the representations received by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, including those from the meeting with the SNFU, have been passed on to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    Mr. Grimond: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that there is some anxiety about the figure of 1,000 acres, owing to the low value of hill land in Scotland? Am I right in thinking that the Government will put this matter right in Committee?
    Mr. Brown: The whole matter is under review. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will be aware of the concessions which have already been announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The fact that land prices have fallen minimises the value of the concessions, and it is this aspect which is still being looked into.
    Mr. Monro: Will the hon. Gentleman accept that this is not good enough? Will he understand that what his Government are proposing will destroy the present structure of agriculture in Scotland in
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    relation to both owner-occupied farms and forestry? This will have a devastating effect on the farm side of the industry and on forestry workers. Will he put pressure on the Chancellor to give greater concessions than are offered at present?
    Mr. Brown: The hon. Gentleman is a bit carnaptious.
    Mr. Monro: Carnaptious?
    Mr. Brown: I know that some hon. Members opposite are only half Scots. While the hon. Member may be fighting for his place on the Opposition Front Bench, he should recognise the genuine value of the concessions already announced. We recognise, of course, that there must be a continuing prosperous and profitable agriculture industry.
    Mr. MacCormick: In view of the Minister's amazing answer to the supplementary question put by the hon. Member for Bute and North Ayrshire (Mr. Corrie), will he confirm that the Government support, in the case of tenant farmers, the rights of succession to these farms?
    Mr. Brown: I do not know what was amazing about my reply. I thought it was a very good one. The hon. Member is confusing two different things. There is security of tenure for tenant farmers in Scotland—a security which was created by the present Government—and it is better than that existing in England and Wales. I do not understand the hon. Gentleman's point.

    Businesses
    Mr. Youngerasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what estimate he has made of the effect on the Scottish economy of the current difficulties facing Scottish businesses.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. William Ross): Scottish businesses are inevitably affected by the current economic problems of the United Kingdom. However, the development of North Sea oil and the Government's special measures to assist Scottish industry will continue to provide new job opportunities.
    Mr. Younger: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware of the extreme difficulties faced by Scottish businesses, including grave difficulties of liquidity and

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    finance? Does he not realise that this has been made abundantly clear in the increase in unemployment to over 100,000? As he said that he would resign if the unemployment rate reached that level, and he now says that circumstances are different, will he say in what way circumstances are different?
    Mr. Ross: I can tell the hon. Gentleman that the figure I quoted was quoted in 1971. When he was a member of the Government and the unemployment figure had risen to 141,000, he was perfectly satisfied with it. I can assure hon. Members that the situation from 1964 to 1970 was very different from the situation when we took over from hon. Members opposite. We are now facing a world recession. If the hon. Gentleman will look at page 9 of the Glasgow Herald today he will see the excuses given by two Scottish firms. Reference is made to certain difficulties about returns, but he will find that they are related more to the time when his Government were in office.
    Mr. Crawford: Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that in Scotland we need an immediate reflation of the economy, and that the Scottish Development Agency should have much more financial muscle than is proposed in the consultative document. Will the right hon. Gentleman say at what level of unemployment he will resign?
    Mr. Ross: We initiated the idea of the Scottish Development Agency. We have set out our proposals for consultation and we hope to get a Bill through the House and the Act into operation before the end of the year. We trust that we shall have the hon. Gentleman's help. This will have an effect upon our attitude in tackling the unemployment problem.
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: Surely the right hon. Gentleman will not simply try to shrug this off. In addition to the difficult economic circumstances facing this country, the Government have aggravated the whole business by their attack on the small family business, by the self-employed insurance stamp and the transfer tax. In so many other ways the Government have contributed directly to the problems in Scotland. Will not the right hon. Gentleman come clean with the
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    House and tell us at what stage he will be prepared to resign?
    Mr. Ross: I have no intention of resigning. Indeed, if the hon. Gentleman was serious in what he said I am surprised that he has been serving under the leadership of someone who was responsible for the disastrous consequences in Scotland which created over 100,000 unemployed as the new norm.

    Education (Pupil Costs)
    Dr. Brayasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the expenditure per year per pupil in primary and secondary schools, respectively, in Lanarkshire, and in Scotland as a whole.
    Mr. Robert Hughes: The estimated Scottish figures for 1972–73 are £150 and £333. Area figures are not generally available, as most education authorities, including Lanarkshire, do not distinguish between primary and secondary expenditure in their accounts.
    Dr. Bray: Will my hon. Friend ensure that in future these figures are made available on a regional and sub-regional basis? If they were now available, would they show that resources for education in Lanarkshire are way below the national average and should be increased?
    Mr. Hughes: It is our intention that when the new regional authorities come into being they will make their returns in such a way that expenditure in primary and secondary schools can be shown as my hon. Friend requests.
    Mr. Teddy Taylor: What will be the effect on expenditure per pupil and on the quality of education in Scotland of the savage cuts in the school building programme which were announced last week in such a cowardly way by the Secretary of State in a Written Answer? Why did he fail so miserably to get a fair deal for Scotland on school building?
    Mr. Hughes: The position is that expenditure on education in Lanarkshire and elsewhere in Scotland will continue to increase. As for the rest of the question, we can discuss that later.
    Mr. Taylor: When?

    Kidney Transplants
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many of the 873 patients in Great Britain, registered on 17th January with the national organ matching and distribution service as waiting for a kidney transplant, are domiciled in Scotland; and what plans he has to help such patients.
    Mr. Robert Hughes: Of the patients referred to. 38 were domiciled in Scotland. Although there have been, on average, 36 kidney transplants per year in Scotland over the last five years, I am very conscious of the need to increase the supply of kidneys. I have recently issued a revised version of the kidney donor card and this is being widely distributed. In addition I propose shortly to issue guidance which should help to improve the operation of the Human Tissue Act 1961.
    Mr. Dalyell: In view of the British Transplantation Society's report, details of which have been sent to my hon. Friend, and one of the authors of which was Professor Brian Jennett of Glasgow, is my hon. Friend aware that we very much welcome the forthcoming circular?
    Mr. Hughes: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments.

    Schools (Edinburgh)
    Mr. Speaker: Lord James Douglas-Hamilton.
    Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: No. 9, Sir.
    Mr. William Ross: The hon. Gentleman means No. 8, I hope.
    Lord James Douglas-Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will pay an official visit to schools in Edinburgh.
    Mr. William Ross: I have no immediate plans to do so.
    Mr. Galbraith: If the right hon. Gentleman is determined to continue with the educational folly concerning these schools will he at least ensure that financially the pupils who are already there do not suffer unnecessarily from the change in his policies?
    Mr. Ross: The hon. Member did not make clear to which schools he was referring.
    Mr. Speaker: Lord James Douglas-Hamilton. Supplementary question?
    Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: Question No. 9, Sir.
    Mr. Galbraith: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I thought that Question No. 9 was mine.
    Mr. Speaker: Yes. I call Question No. 9, Mr. Galbraith.

    Great Western Road, Glasgow (Underpass)
    Mr. Galbraithasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he will be in a position to announce his intentions with regard to the proposed underpass system on the Great Western Road, Glasgow.
    The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Mr. Bruce Millan): No proposals on this have yet been submitted to my right hon. Friend by Glasgow Corporation.
    Lord James Douglas-Hamilton rose—
    Mr. Galbraith rose—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. If there has been some mistake in the printing of the Order Paper, I am sorry, but we are now on Question No. 9.
    Mr. Galbraith: When proposals are submitted to the Minister by Glasgow Corporation, as I understand may soon be the case, will he bear in mind that because of the economic situation it was decided to abandon the Channel Tunnel? Will he also abandon the tunnels which it is intended to construct in my constituency, since they will be costly and ugly, and since no one in the constituency or that part of Glasgow wants them? Will the Minister please be a democrat, listen to public opinion, and try to save money?
    Mr. Millan: As I have explained, we do not yet have the proposals before us and therefore I cannot comment upon them. In any case, with the new local authorities coming into operation in May the scheme is likely to be subject to a decision by the Strathclyde Region as well as by Glasgow Corporation. Once that decision has been taken we shall be able to consider the question of priority.
    Mr. Buchan: In the event of the scheme going ahead will my hon. Friend bear in mind that there are a large number of fee-paying schools in that area, and that if what we have seen this afternoon in the confusion over Questions has arisen out of education at fee-paying schools he will need to give very clear instructions about the underpass?
    Mr. Millan: I take note of what my hon. Friend said.

    A7 (Drumlanrig Bridge)
    Mr. David Steelasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will now make a statement outlining his plans for the proposed development of Drumlanrig Bridge on the A7.
    Mr. Millan: As the hon. Gentleman will know from his correspondence with my noble Friend, Drumlanrig Bridge, which is subject to weight restriction, is to be replaced by a stronger structure. Work will start as soon as the necessary statutory procedures are complete.
    Mr. Steel: Will the Minister confirm that the compulsory purchase order subsequently devised was technically defective and that the whole procedure may have to start again? If that is the case will the Scottish Office take the opportunity of exploring other routes for the A7 through Hawick, since there is universal feeling in the town that the last place for traffic is the High Street?
    Mr. Millan: The second point raises a rather longer-term consideration. I think there is a large measure of agreement that the development of the existing bridge is urgently required. The technical objection to the procedure is now the subject of legal action, and I am afraid I cannot comment on that.

    Economic Prospects
    Mr. Sillarsasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent discussions he has had with industrial interests about Scottish economic prospects over the next 12 months.
    Mr. William Ross: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply I gave him on 11th December.—[Vol. 883, c. 489–90.]
    My hon. Friend the Minister of State will shortly be having meetings with
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    representatives of the Scottish Trades Union Congress, the Scottish Council of the CBI and the Scottish Council (Development and Industry) to discuss my proposals for the Scottish Development Agency and related economic matters.
    Mr. Sillars: Is my right hon. Friend aware that one of the most depressing prospects for the coming 12 months is that 80,000 young people will leave school and go straight on to the labour market, where about 4 per cent. of the working population is currently unemployed? In view of the social as well as employment implications of that, will he consider reintroducing a scheme which was tried successfully once before—of taking a large number of young people, through boards and industrial concerns, into pre-apprenticeship training for at least a year to keep them off the dole queue?
    Mr. Ross: My hon. Friend's suggestion is worth examining. The whole question not only of young people but of shortcomings on manpower training generally must be looked at urgently.
    Mr. Younger: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the level of redundancies in Scotland is now beginning to rise rather alarmingly? Since he is having various meetings, will he arrange for a meeting with the Scottish executive of the NUM to press on it that unless its members abide absolutely by the terms of the social contract many of their workmates will be put out of work?
    Mr. Ross: The NUM will be represented in the Scottish TUC on all these matters and it will put its own point of view very forcibly.
    Dr. Bray: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the figure of £200 million, which he mentioned in his Press release about the Scottish Development Agency, is not the limit of money available to that agency over the next five years?
    Mr. Ross: I think that was made clear in the Press conferences I held on the subject. That was the first sum mentioned. If we go through that amount quickly, I am sure, judging from the feelings evinced in the House today, that Parliament will speedily give us more.
    Mr. Gordon Wilson: Among the Secretary of State's discussions, was he consulted by the Treasury about the proposal

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    to increase employment potential in Scotland through varying the tax uplift for Scottish oil development?
    Mr. Ross: If the hon. Member wishes to ask detailed questions like that he had better table a Question.

    Primary School, Carnock
    Mr. Hunterasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what representations he has had from the parents' association in the village of Carnock regarding the proposed closure of the primary school; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Robert Hughes: Two letters from the Carnock New School Action Committee, in addition to correspondence with my hon. Friend, but since I have not received any proposal from Fife Education Authority to close the school it would be premature for me to make a statement.
    Mr. Hunter: Is my hon. Friend aware that there are real fears in Carnock that this will eventually mean the end of full primary education in the village? Since Carnock has had primary education for 100 years, does it not seem strange that when the population is increasing the education authority should seek to avoid building a school there? Is my hon. Friend aware that any intention to transfer second and third tier classes will be firmly resisted and regarded as a subversion of full primary education?
    Mr. Hughes: We have received no proposal from the Fife Education Authority. Until we receive such proposals, I cannot comment. Any proposal to close the school or to transfer pupils will require the approval of my right hon. Friend. We shall certainly take into account the views of parents if and when we have to make a decision.

    Trades Union Congress (Prime Minister's Talks)
    Mr. Lambieasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether it is his intention to be present at the Prime Minister's talks with the Scottish Trades Union Congress on 27th-28th February.
    Mr. William Ross: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Lambie: If my right hon. Friend meets the Prime Minister, will he remind him that especially after the statement
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    made by the Secretary of State for Industry last week many people in Scotland are worried about the future of the Scottish steel industry? Will he seek an assurance from the Prime Minister that the additional £400 million for development in England and Wales will not be taken from money already allocated to developments in Scotland, especially those at Hunterston and Glenganock?
    Mr. Ross: In his statement my right hon. Friend gave a clear undertaking that the conclusions reached for England and Wales did not prejudge or prejudice the review now taking place in respect of Scotland. I received the impression that that statement was reasonably well received in Scotland. However, my hon. Friend is an exception to that.
    Mr. David Steel: Will the Secretary of State, either at the February meeting or on a later occasion, discuss with the Scottish TUC his views on the merits of Britain's remaining within the Common Market on the terms negotiated by the Government?
    Mr. Ross: I do not doubt that when we deal with these matters that problem will be raised.

    Unemployment (Western Isles)
    Mr. Donald Stewartasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans he has for reducing the rate of unemployment in the Western Isles.
    Mr. William Ross: The full range of regional incentives to industry is available, together with advice and assistance from the Highlands and Islands Development Board. Stornaway was identified as a "preferred development zone" in the coastal planning guidelines which I issued last year, and I have approved a major oil-related development there which should provide substantial new employment.
    Mr. Stewart: Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that, despite these advances, in view of the last recorded figure of 18 per cent. unemployment, the matter is much more serious and urgent than these steps envisage? Will he at least give consideration to going ahead with the suspended road schemes, which are long overdue and will provide much-needed work?
    Mr. Ross: Priority of road schemes is a matter for local authorities. I shall examine any proposals that the local authorities put forward. I do not think that we should underestimate the work being done by the Highlands and Islands Development Board or by the Stornaway Trust to promote the settlement of industry in the Stornaway area.

    Tourism
    Mr. Monroasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what plans there are to develop tourism in south west Scotland.
    Mr. William Ross: The Scottish Tourist Board, the Countryside Commission for Scotland and the Scottish Sports Council are undertaking regional studies designed to assist the new local authorities in planning for the development of tourism and recreation in their areas. A conference is to be arranged in the South-West to discuss these matters with the local authorities concerned.
    Mr. Monro: Is the Secretary of State aware of the great success of the Burns heritage trail in south-west Scotland and the recent excellent publicity arising from the Burns Federation visit to Moscow? Will he, put pressure, on behalf of Scotland, on the Post Office to issue a Burns stamp, as opposed to an envelope, in the near future?
    Mr. Ross: I think that the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that I shall exert what pressure I can in relation to anything affecting Burns, but I think that it will be difficult to arrange for the issue of a Burns stamp. The least we can do is to consider franking all the envelopes leaving places connected with the trail. I am glad that the hon. Gentleman drew attention to this matter. It has been a great success. It is an imaginative idea.
    Mr. Corrie: Will the Secretary of State do something about the dreadful ferry services to the Islands, which are affecting the tourist industry, since the island people are very worried about the situation which builds up towards the summer?
    Mr. Ross: I am aware of that problem. I believe that the hon. Member is scheduled to meet the Minister of State in the House of Commons in the near
    Dr. M. S. Miller: Pleasant as it is for the Opposition to contemplate the development of the tourist industry, does my right hon. Friend realise that southwest Scotland wants industry, and that we should not concentrate too much on what the Opposition would like?
    Mr. Ross: There are other areas in whose prosperity the tourist industry plays a considerable part. We must not neglect that. We should appreciate that one of the achievements of the last Labour Government was to create the Scottish Tourist Board. We did that because we felt it was necessary.
    Mr. Russell Johnston: Is the Secretary of State aware that everyone involved in the development of the tourist industry throughout Scotland is worried about the proposals for two-tier petrol pricing now being discussed with the Department of Energy? Is he in touch with the Department of Energy about these matters?
    Mr. Ross: The answer is "Yes".

    Bannockburn (School)
    Mr. Canavanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the up-to-date position of the plans for a new high school at Bannockburn.
    Mr. Robert Hughes: I understand that Stirlingshire Education Authority expects to submit soon to my Department a formal application for approval of the plans for this project.
    Mr. Canavan: Does my right hon. Friend realise that the full benefits of comprehensive education will not be available to all the children in Bannockburn until the new high school is open. Will he give an assurance that the cuts in the school building programme will not affect that project? Will he do all in his power to press his own Department and Stirling County Council to expedite the finalisation of the plans? This delay is hampering the educational opportunities of the children in the Bannockburn area.
    Mr. Hughes: Yes, I am aware of the benefits of comprehensive education in my hon. Friend's constituency. The authority hopes to be in a position to start the first phase before 30th June 1975, that is, during the current building year. However, an amendment to the county

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    council's development plan is required, and that will be taken care of shortly. Certainly the project will go ahead soon.
    Mr. Reid: In reviewing the Bannockburn situation, will the Minister consider the question of the numbers of children in hutted accommodation throughout central Scotland? The numbers are unacceptably high. What will the Minister do to reduce them?
    Mr. Hughes: I am aware that there are many pupils in hutted accommodation. How fast we can remedy that situation depends largely on what resources we have available from year to year. Certainly it is a problem which is constantly brought to my attention. One wants to see that situation disposed of.
    Lord James Douglas-Hamilton: Is the Minister aware that the Government, by cutting expenditure on school building in Edinburgh by almost three-quarters of the sum asked for, at a time when 432 parents have asked for application forms to transfer their children from grant-aided to comprehensive schools, may create a serious problem of overcrowding in comprehensive schools in Edinburgh, and that if nothing is done about it the teaching may be carried on in thoroughly inadequate circumstances in the future?
    Mr. Hughes: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman would not wish to exaggerate the position. So far there have been 211 firm applications to Edinburgh Corporation, some of which are from parents who want their children to sit their examinations in a State school and thus avoid the possibility of paying fees for the last term at the school they now attend.

    Unpaid Fines
    Mr. Dempseyasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the total amount of fines imposed by courts in Scotland which are still outstanding at the most recent convenient date, the value of those regarded as arrears, and the total amount regarded as irrecoverable.
    Mr. Harry Ewing: The amount of fines imposed in sheriff courts in Scotland since 1st April 1970 but not yet received at 31st March 1974 was £403,232. Information is not available about the amount of this sum due but unpaid, but
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    the amount of fines imposed during the year ended 31st March 1971 written off in September 1974 as irrecoverable was £18,333, or less than 1·2 per cent. of the total imposed. Corresponding information about burgh and justice of the peace courts is not available.
    Mr. Dempsey: Is my hon. Friend aware that it is a pity that the information is not available, because it would reveal the substantial state of indebtedness to society in those courts? Will my hon. Friend take it from me that even means inquiry courts have been disregarded by fines dodgers? Can some action be taken to ensure that they pay for the offences they have committed against the community?
    Mr. Ewing: My hon. Friend will be aware that alternative measures are open to the courts, one of which is the arrestment of wages to recover fines that have been imposed and not paid. The courts have those facilities available. The amount of the fines outstanding at a particular date does not always give an accurate picture. Time is often allowed for the payment of a fine, and an answer that is given on a particular date does not always correspond with the amount of the debt outstanding.
    Mr. Teddy Taylor: Does the Minister agree that when this sort of information is given it tends to bring the law into disrepute? In view of the figures, will he consult the court authorities to see whether additional measures can be taken to improve the situation?
    Mr. Ewing: The Scottish Council on Crime has been considering the question of additional measures. It has recently published a report which has been circulated to interested bodies. The council has carried out a fairly detailed study of the question of unpaid fines, and no doubt comments will be received later on this subject.

    Rates
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the estimated average annual increase in rates expected for 1975–76 on the basis of the latest information available to him.
    Mr. Millan: No useful estimate can be made at the moment.
    Mr. Hamilton: Will my hon. Friend estimate the effect on rates of the recent increase in teachers' salaries? All hon. Members wished the teachers to have a salary increase and must, therefore, accept the consequent rate increases, and not complain about them. As rates are a regressive form of taxation, will my hon. Friend issue a circular, advisory or otherwise, to local authorities to ensure that rent rebate systems are sufficiently generous to protect people on low incomes?
    Mr. Millan: I am not quite sure what my hon. Friend has in mind about rent rebates. He knows of the current legislation which is going through the House. In so far as teachers' salaries fall on that portion of local authority expenditure which is met through the rate support grant—which has gone up to 75 per cent. for next year; an unprecedented increase—the cost will be borne by the taxpayer. The remainder will be borne by the ratepayer, and it will have an effect on the rates. We have to recognise that when salary increases are given to local authority employees rates are affected.
    Sir John Gilmour: Does the Minister agree that if the total cost of teachers' salaries were transferred to the Exchequer a much fairer distribution of the burden would fall on the taxpayers generally?
    Mr. Millan: The trouble about any transfer from local expenditure to central expenditure is that the money still has to be found from somewhere.

    Inshore Fishermen
    Mr. MacCormickasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will now introduce an operating subsidy for inshore fishermen.
    Mr. Hugh D. Brown: No detailed case for such a subsidy has been submitted, but the Government are aware of the industry's financial position and hope to make a statement soon.
    Mr. MacCormick: That is a reasonably fair answer, but will the Minister bear in mind that the situation is particularly serious in the Clyde area, where escalating costs have not been accompanied by nearly such a big rise in the price of nephthrops landed on that part of the coast?
    Mr. Brown: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that I met representatives of the inshore section of the industry in December. We are still awaiting information on costs and earnings and checking the figures which were produced then. I am aware that the additional cost of fuel for the fishing industry generally is a burden that has to be shared by everyone in the community, and we hope to be able to make an announcement about that in the near future.
    Mr. Sproat: I am grateful to the Minister for his reference, presumably, to the Scottish Trawlers' Federation, whose problems are at least as severe as those mentioned by the hon. Member for Western Isles (Mr. Stewart). Will the hon. Gentleman accept that the new quota system, rising building costs, rising wages—particularly in competition with oil wages—and rising fuel costs are causing the Scottish Trawlers' Federation problems of unparalleled severity?
    Mr. Brown: I met the inshore men in December, and last week I met the Scottish Trawlers' Federation. Again, I was impressed by the facts and figures that were produced. We are checking the details, and we have assured the federation that what was put to us will have sympathetic consideration.
    Mr. Watt: Will the Minister for once recognise the full potential of the Scottish industry and see to it that his colleagues in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office go ahead and get the 200-mile limit?
    Mr. Brown: I am in some difficulty in knowing where the Scottish National Party stands on this matter. One day it wants a 50-mile limit, and the next day a 200-mile limit. Unfortunately, fish do not recognise national boundaries. On a more serious note, we are well prepared for the Law of the Sea Conference and are taking into account all the official representations that have been made.

    Travelling People
    Mr. Robin F. Cookasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he has received the report of the committee chaired by Lord Birsay on Scotland's travelling people.
    Mr. Robert Hughes: Yes, Sir. The report will be published shortly.
    Mr. Cook: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. It would be helpful if the Scottish Grand Committee could have an opportunity of considering the report when it is published. Is my hon. Friend aware that this is the fourth report on this subject that has been made to the Secretary of State during this century? Is he aware that after the previous report one Scottish local authority set up one designated site, which compares unfavourably with the 117 designated in England? Will my hon. Friend take steps to ensure that the recommendations contained in the report are translated into action by the Government?
    Mr. Hughes: What is discussed in the Scottish Grand Committee is not a matter for me, but I have no doubt that my hon. Friend's supplementary question will have been noted by those concerned. I was not aware that this was the fourth report this century, but I am glad to have that information from my hon. Friend. Once the report is published there will have to be a considerable amount of discussion with local authorities on the question of sites. Local authorities have statutory power to provide sites, but I regret that progress so far has been disappointing.

    Secondary Schoolchildren
    Mr. Teddy Taylorasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many secondary schoolchildren were receiving only part-time education at the most recent date for which figures are available; and what were the comparable figures in each of the three previous years, respectively.
    Mr. Robert Hughes: Returns from education authorities show that 35,521 secondary pupils were receiving part-time education on 3rd February. The comparable figure for February 1974 was 11,784. Figures are not available for February 1972 or 1973.
    Mr. Taylor: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that even if we discount the effect of disruption in the schools the figures he has given of part-time education are alarming? Although there has been an increase in the number of teachers in Scotland, the number of children receiving part-time education in certain areas, particularly Glasgow and Lanarkshire, has risen dramatically. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the result is that
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    we have no real equality of opportunity in education? As existing methods have failed, has the Minister any proposals to put forward to ensure equality of opportunity throughout the system?
    Mr. Hughes: We cannot discount as easily as did the hon. Gentleman the disruptive effects of working to rule, which in 15 schools affects 11,627 pupils. Nearly one-third of the total figure is the result of working to rule, and cannot be discounted. I am glad to note that the hon. Gentleman has suddenly discovered that there is not equal opportunity in Scottish schools. There never has been equal opportunity in the history of education. That is what we are working towards in the comprehensive system. We certainly want to increase the numbers of teachers in these schools, and I believe that the significant salary increases, as a result of the Houghton Report, and the much improved career structure, will make Scottish schools a more attractive place to work in. If the hon. Gentleman would spend less time egging teachers on instead of putting forward the advantages of working in Scottish schools and the improvements that have been made we might get a few more teachers in the schools.
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: If the Minister is so proud of the Scottish schools as a result of action taken by the Labour Government, why is there so much part-time education? Is that all he can point to in favour of the comprehensive system?
    Mr. Hughes: The hon. Gentleman should know that the reason for part-time education is the rise in the school leaving age and the fact that we have not had the expected number of teachers expected coming into education. The Conservative Government had four years in office during which to take some action. We are trying to clear up the mess which they left us.

  LAW COMMISSION
  Mr. Rifkindasked the Lord Advocate when he next intends to meet the Scottish Law Commission.
  The Lord Advocate (Mr. Ronald King Murray): The date of my next formal meeting with the Scottish Law Commission has not yet been fixed. The exchange

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  of views and information, however, does not depend solely upon such meetings, and less formal exchanges take place as circumstances may require.
  Mr. Rifkind: When the Lord Advocate next meets the Law Commission, will he ascertain its views on the Divorce Law Reform (Scotland) Bill presented by the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Central (Mr. Cook)? Does he appreciate that there is a growing demand throughout Scotland for the Government to give time for full and proper debate of the Bill? Will any time be found for such a debate?
  The Lord Advocate: That is a matter which I shall discuss with the Scottish Law Commission when next we meet. The hon. Gentleman is probably well aware that in the last few years the commission has referred to this matter in its annual report.

  WIVES (ASSAULTS BY HUSBANDS)
  Mr. Sproatasked the Lord Advocate whether he is satisfied with the procedures for prosecution in cases of wives assaulted by husbands.
  The Lord Advocate: I am satisfied with the procedure.
  Mr. Sproat: Will the Lord Advocate clear up a widespread misapprehension and confirm that the police have power to interfere in cases of assault by husbands on wives without regard to the severity of the injuries caused, and that in certain circumstances they have the power of arrest, as in any other breach of the peace? Has there been an increase in the number of cases coming before the courts, and will the recently-announced Select Committee on violence in marriage include a Scottish remit?
  The Lord Advocate: That is a complex question. In reply to the middle part of the question, I regret to say that I cannot give my hon. Friend the figures. Perhaps he will table a Question on that point. On the last point mentioned by my hon. Friend, the Select Committee contains two Scottish Members of Parliament. Its terms are general, and apply to Scotland as well as to other parts of the United Kingdom.
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  In regard to the point put to me about the power of the police in these matters, it must be said that the police, naturally, are reluctant to interfere in a matrimonial affair unless it is clear that one of the spouses wishes a charge to be brought.
  Dr. M. S. Miller: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that assaults by husbands on wives need not necessarily be confined to a physical assault? Is he satisfied that the procedure applying to cases of mental assault is correct?
  The Lord Advocate: I think I would largely agree with my hon. Friend.
  Dr. Miller: Perhaps my right hon. and learned Friend did not hear my supplementary question. I asked whether he was satisfied that since an assault need not necessarily be confined to a physical assault the procedure relating to assault through mental processes is the correct one?
  The Lord Advocate: I must confess that now I do not know whether to agree or disagree with my hon. Friend. I think that before I conclude I should take the opportunity of congratulating the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) on assuming the place of honour which she now occupies on the Opposition Front Bench. I hope that she will occupy that position for a long time to come.

  NORTHERN LIGHTHOUSES
  Mr. Monroasked the Lord Advocate how many official visits he has made to the northern lighthouses; and if he will make a statement.
  The Lord Advocate: Since assuming office on 8th March 1974 as a Commissioner of Northern Lighthouses, I have visited three such lighthouses—Dunnet Head on 26th July 1974, and Cape Wrath and Stoer Head (Sutherland) both on 27th July 1974.
  Mr. Monro: Is the Lord Advocate aware that the whole House wishes to pay tribute to the lighthouse keepers in northern waters? I am glad that on his visit he did not put the lights out. Is he further aware of the grave concern that the fishery protection vessel "Jura" has been taken over by the Ministry of Defence. Will he assure the House that

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  the "Pharos" will not suffer the same fate, of becoming a river gunboat?
  The Lord Advocate: I note what the hon. Gentleman said, but none of these—not even the "Pharos"—are matters, which lie within my ministerial responsibility. I am sure that his remarks will have been noted by the responsible Ministers.

  REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE ACTS
  Mr. Canavanasked the Lord Advocate how many prosecutions have taken place in Scotland in the past year for offences connected with the Representation of the People Acts.
  The Lord Advocate: One.
  Mr. Canavan: Does not my right hon. and learned Friend regard it as surprising that the number of irregularities is so low, particularly in respect of the recent elections, involving illegal fly-posting, not to mention other illegalities and irregularities? Is he aware that although my election agent, Mr. Henry Dawson, has submitted well-substantiated and detailed complaints to the procurator fiscal in Stirling concerning certain irregularities about the election expenses of the SNP, the procurator fiscal has not so far taken any action? Is my right hon. and learned Friend in a position to investigate the reason for this lack of action? Many Scottish people are beginning to suspect that it is not for legal reasons but for politicial reasons that this situation is allowed to continue.
  The Lord Advocate: On the matter relating to my hon. Friend's constituency, I think that it would be inappropriate to reply at this time, but I shall write to him on the subject. As for the number of prosecutions, my hon. Friend should appreciate that of seven cases reported to the Crown Office one is sub judice, the charge having been served. In regard to the other six, no proceedings were ordered by Crown counsel, he having carefully considered the available evidence.
  Mr. Teddy Taylor: Does not the Lord Advocate agree that the most serious offence connected with the Representation of the People Act in Scotland in
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  the past year has been the return of the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock Mr. Ross to the Scottish Office, which in the last few weeks has resulted in increased unemployment in Scotland, to a figure of over 100,000, and the most severe cuts in school building in Scottish history?
  The Lord Advocate: The hon. Gentleman does not really deserve an answer to that question, but the answer is "No, I do not agree."

  LAW SOCIETY
  Mr. Robin F. Cookasked the Lord Advocate when he next plans to meet the Law Society of Scotland.
  The Lord Advocate: As I have already said in answer to the hon. Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Sproat) on 31st July and 20th November 1974, I have an arrangement whereby I meet the President of the Law Society every month and, in addition, I meet him on other occasions when he asks for a special meeting.
  Mr. Cook: When the Lord Advocate meets the President of the Law Society, will he welcome the society's stated view that it would favour reform of divorce law in Scotland? Will he tell the President of the Law Society why, eight years after the Scottish Law Commission recommended reform, we have still not carried out this essential measure.
  The Lord Advocate: At present there is certainly a degree of pressure in Scotland about law reform. However, successive Governments have taken the view that because of the controversial social, moral and religious issues involved, divorce law is best left to private Members' legislation. Indeed, my hon. Friend has a Private Member's Bill on the subject, which I believe is to be debated on Friday. No doubt he will then press the points which he has made on this occasion.
  Mr. Fairbairn: How can the Lord Advocate justify that attitude? The divorce law is about the status of the citizen, and if there is one matter which should be the subject of Government legislation rather than private Members' legislation, it is surely that. Does not the

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  right hon. and learned Gentleman recognise that the basis of the present law in England was contained in the minority report of the Royal Commission by Lord Walker in 1948?
  The Lord Advocate: That is a legitimate point of view. It is one which has to be set against the controversial religious, social and moral issues. A balance has to be struck. Like their predecessors, this Government consider that the proper balance to strike is to leave a matter of this kind to private Members' legislation.

CIVIL LIST
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a statement on the Civil List.
Section 5 of the Civil List Act 1972 requires the Royal Trustees to keep under review the annual expenditure of the Civil List and the sums available to meet that expenditure, and to report to the Treasury if at any time it appears that expenditure for the coming calendar year will exceed the sums available under the existing provision. The Treasury is required to lay any such report before Parliament.
That situation has now been reached, some years earlier than was expected when Parliament passed the 1972 Act. The Royal Trustees have reported to the Treasury that, after every effort has been made to secure economies in the administration of the Royal Household, expenditure on the Civil List has increased to £1,180,000 in 1974—an average annual increase of 16 per cent. since 1972—and is expected to increase to £1,400,000 in 1975, a further increase of 18½ per cent.
This does not represent any increase in real expenditure. About three-quarters of the expenditure of the Civil List is on wages and salaries, mainly of staff engaged in manual and clerical work. Wages and salaries in the Royal Household are wherever possible closely linked with comparable Civil Service rates, which are themselves negotiated with the Civil Service staff associations and unions. Pay increases are, therefore, within the TUC guidelines. In respect of this part of the expenditure, the increased provi-
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sion is required to meet increases in wages and salaries of existing members, officials and staff of the Royal Household. The remaining quarter consists of other expenses, which have, thanks to continuing economies in the administration of the Royal Household, risen by considerably less than the increase in the Retail Price Index since 1972.
It is estimated that by the end of 1975 the increase in these expenses—that is, other than wages and salaries—since 1972 will have been 32 per cent. On the other hand, by the end of 1975 salaries and wages may be expected to have increased by something like 70 per cent. over the three years in accordance with the Civil Service link.
The surpluses built up by the Royal Trustees since 1972, under the arrangements approved by Parliament that year, were exhausted in the course of 1974; indeed, it was only with the aid of a contribution of more than £60,000 by the Queen from her own resources that the expenditure for the year was covered.
It is, therefore, necessary to ask Parliament to approve an order under Section 6 of the 1972 Act increasing the amount to be paid from the Consolidated Fund from £980,000, the sum provided in the 1972 Act, to £1,400,000. The report of the Royal Trustees and the order are being laid before Parliament this afternoon; copies are now available in the Vote Office.
The Civil List now finances only the expenses incurred by the Queen in pursuance of her official functions and duties and includes no contribution to the Privy Purse, and the increase now proposed allows for no increase in expenditure in real terms—indeed, the reverse. Despite that, the Queen has intimated to the Government that, in view of the current economic situation, she thinks it right herself to make a further contribution from her own resources towards the increased cash requirement for the Civil List this year—that is, towards the £1,400,000.
Accordingly, Her Majesty has offered to contribute £150,000 towards the expenses of the Civil List in 1975. The Government have accepted this offer, which will reduce the actual net call upon the Exchequer in 1975 by that amount to

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£270,000. That means that the net provision by the Exchequer this coming year will be 27·6 per cent. above the 1972 provision made three years ago, and there have been three years of inflation since that time. I should like to express the Goverment's appreciation of the spirit which has prompted Her Majesty to make this gesture.
No increase is proposed for 1975 in the amounts of the annuities payable to certain members of the Royal Family under Section 2 of the Act, but the order increases from £60,000 to £85,000 the amount payable under Section 3(1) of the Act to the Royal Trustees for the purpose of making contributions towards the expenses of the performance of Royal duties by those members of the Royal Family for which Parliament has not made other provision.
The increases provided by the order are expected to meet the requirements of the Civil List for 1975, but do not provide any surplus for use in meeting deficits in later years. It will be necessary to seek parliamentary authority for a further increase in the Civil List provisions next year. Indeed, it is evident that, in a time of rapidly rising costs and prices, the traditional system of settling the Civil List by legislation at relatively infrequent intervals becomes unworkable.
The Government therefore propose, with the Queen's agreement, to seek the authority of Parliament to finance future increases in the provision for the Civil List and in the other payments authorised by Civil List Acts from 1976 onwards by means of a grant-in-aid made to the Royal Trustees by the Treasury out of moneys provided by Parliament. Grants-in-aid made in accordance with this arrangement would be included in Estimates and voted by Parliament in accordance with the normal procedure of Supply.
I will, with permission, circulate in the Official Report a more detailed note of the background to the increased provision now being made and of the basis on which Civil List provisions would be adjusted in future under the proposal to which I have just referred. The House will, of course, have opportunities not only of a debate on the order to which I have referred, which is subject to the negative resolution procedure, but also
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of discussing these matters more fully when the necessary legislation is introduced in due course.
Mrs. Thatcher: Is the Prime Minister aware that the Opposition welcome his statement and agree that proper provision must continue to be made for the Royal Household and the performance of its official functions? This is our most precious asset.
In view of the inflationary conditions prevailing, which affect the Royal Household and its staff as much as anyone else, we believe that the time has come to take a look at the way in which we provide for the Civil List. We shall, of course, carefully examine any legislation which the right hon. Gentleman chooses to lay before the House.
The Prime Minister: With your indulgence, Mr. Speaker, may I say that I know that I speak on behalf of all my right hon. and hon. Friends when I congratulate the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) on her outstanding success in being elected leader of her party. We wish her happiness in and enjoyment of a life which she knows she can expect to be exciting but sometimes arduous and difficult. From a study of the right hon. Lady's speeches, I have formed the impression that there may well be a deep gulf between her and me in our respective political philosophies, but, having worked closely with her three immediate predecessors, as I have, I know that political disagreement between us need not mar the work that we have to do together in Parliament, and I look forward, as I hope she will, to the meetings behind your Chair, Mr. Speaker, and to the informality and, to judge from my experience with her predecessors, the intimacy, which such meetings afford.
Mrs. Thatcher rose—
The Prime Minister: I apologise to the right hon. Lady. I did not answer the very important questions she put to me. That is an oversight. I thank her for what she said at the beginning. It is absolutely right that the House should have not only abundant time to debate these matters but abundant time to think about them. That is why I think that the legislation will be best introduced very much later on this year so that hon. Members in all parts of the House, whatever

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their views, can give thought to them. As the right hon. Lady says, we must think about this whole question.
There was an all-party Select Committee three years ago of which I and others were members. We went into these things very fully indeed, as the right hon. Lady knows. Speaking for myself—other hon. Members may form a different view—on the whole I think that the right decision was taken at that time.
Mrs. Thatcher: I know that it is important not to speak too often from this Dispatch Box, Mr. Speaker, but may I respond to the Prime Minister's kindness? I know that we shall have hard things to say to one another across the Dispatch Boxes, but I hope that we shall be able to keep the mutual respect of keen antagonists which I think is in the best interests of parliamentary democracy.
Mr. Thorpe: Is the Prime Minister aware that the right hon. Lady appears to have bowled him over at least through half of his questions? Whether that is a sign for the future I know not. Is the Prime Minister aware, further, that it is singularly appropriate today to congratulate the right hon. Lady on becoming the first lady of this House, which we hope is not a contested position, at least for the immediate future?
Does the right hon. Gentleman remember that some eight years ago he was kind enough to assure me that the relationship between party leaders was one of warmth, friendliness and total understanding? We hope that the right hon. Lady will live to enjoy that relationship.
Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that inflation inevitably hits any Head of State under whatever system it is operating, and the Head of State of this country is not immune from those processes? Would he also bear in mind that some of us who sat on the Select Committee on the Civil List believe that the present system is not only psychologically unfair but is totally misleading?
Will the Prime Minister again have a look at the Crown estates, which admittedly have the benefit of having been freed from death duties but which none the less are surrendered to the Exchequer at the beginning of each reign? In 1970 those revenues were as much as
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£3½ million. Would he consider the possibility of those revenues being paid into a joint Exchequer board for the actual expenses which the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and perhaps an official from the Royal Household, could agree, as the Inland Revenue does already in other matters, were wholly and properly incurred in the discharge of the Royal functions and see that this surplus was paid into the Exchequer each year? That would be much more accurate and much more fair.
Finally, so that we get these matters into perspective, will the Prime Minister confirm that the cost of discharging the functions of the Head of State of this country is slightly less than the cost of running the Embassy in Paris?
The Prime Minister: I thank the right hon. Gentleman. He is, of course, right when he says that inflation hits Heads of State in common with everyone else. In fact I think the more accurate phrase to use is that it hits any large employer. The increase referred to in the statement which I made this afternoon, which is required because of the statutory requirement of the report by the trustees, is largely because of wages and salaries. I am sure no hon. Member begrudges the fact that the Royal servants received roughly the same wages and salary increases as those in comparable work and in comparable—in many cases the same—trade unions. No one disputes that.
The right hon. Gentleman was right when he said that this cannot be regarded as an increase in pay, notwithstanding the rather tendentious headlines we have seen about "Increase in Queen's Pay". It is not an increase in pay. It is not an increase in salary. The Queen has received no salary since the 1972 Act. It is in fact a reduction, not an increase, in the real value of the finance made available. In part it reimburses her as a very large employer on behalf of the nation for what she in an inflationary situation over three years has had to pay in increased wages and salaries.
Mr. Michael Stewart: Would my right hon. Friend agree that there was certain information about the effects of the Royal immunity from taxation which was not fully available to the Select Committee three years ago and which would be

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relevant and should be available to Parliament if we are to legislate further on this matter?
The Prime Minister: I know my right hon. Friend's feelings on this matter. Indeed, he has spoken to me about it. It is true that the Select Committee did not receive certain information on this matter, though I think that most hon. Members were able to make a fairly clear assumption about these things. The Select Committee considered the question of tax liabilities. As I have said today, without any question of tax there is a voluntary contribution from the Crown—from the Queen's own resources—to the £1·4 million which is contained in the order.
Mr. Paul Dean: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his statement today will go some way to deal with the grossly unfair and misleading remarks which have have been made outside? Does he agree that since the Crown surrendered various rights in exchange for the Civil List, the State has made a handsome profit out of the Royal Family, quite apart from the enormous debt that we owe them as ambassadors for Britain and the Commonwealth throughout the world?
The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.
Mr. William Hamilton: Is the Prime Minister aware that the vast majority of Members on this side will be appalled at the statement that he has made this afternoon, and that I suspect that the vast majority of our supporters outside will share that view?
Does the Prime Minister know—I am sure that he does—that there is a tax-free income available to the Crown of not less than £300,000 a year from the Duchy of Lancaster which, if it were taxed, would be more than £14 million a year, and that that is likely to increase over the next few years? Does he not think that it would be desirable for us to return to the principle of having a Select Committee to go into all the details instead of this proposal being passed by an order of the House which we shall not have the opportunity to amend?
Will not the Prime Minister accept—[HON. MEMBERS: "Too long."]—that the whole of the Parliamentary Labour
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Party took the view, when the Civil List was debated, that we should establish a Department of the Crown—in other words, treat it as another Department of State with an annual Vote? His proposals this afternoon fell very short of that. We knew that he was a member of the establishment, but he does not need to go on all-fours to prove it.
Mr. Rathbone: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Would you give me some guidance? Should not the hon. Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton) have declared an interest in the subject to which he was speaking, in that he has gone out of his way to seek publicity for a book which he has published about the Royal Family and he is now making use of the House of Commons in order to further the sales of his own creation?
Mr. Speaker: It is not a convention of the House that interests have to be declared during Questions.
The Prime Minister: The views of my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton) on this matter are well known and have been well canvassed over many years. Indeed, he has every right in a free country, as I said of another politican yesterday, to speak for himself and some others. But he does not have the right to claim to speak for the majority of the British people. Naturally, I do not accept some of his remarks. I know how strongly he feels and it will perhaps be better for me to pass them by.
My hon. Friend referred to the Select Committee of which he and I were both Members and in which we played a considerable part together.
Mr. William Hamilton: I was a full-timer.
The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend has always been a full-timer on this subject. Some of us have to spend time on other subjects.
My hon. Friend did not point out that in the debates on the Bill that followed the Select Committee, the procedure under which I have to take action today, as required by law, was not contested by a vote called by either of the Front Benches of the major parties or by him.
Mr. Hamilton: I was away.
The Prime Minister: Perhaps my hon. Friend was away. Some of us were full-timers at that time.
Mr. Hamilton: I was away sick.
The Prime Minister: If my hon. Friend was in his sick bed, I understand and withdraw that remark.
Mr. Hamilton: My right hon. Friend should have known that.
The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend will be aware that, in his absence, even those whose support he claims did not move an amendment to the Bill relating to the procedure under which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and I are required to act.
I was interested in what my hon. Friend said, because the point was pressed in our discussions. Incidentally, in most votes in the Select Committee he and I voted on the same side, but perhaps for slightly different reasons [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I am not accusing my hon. Friend of guilt by association. I am just saying that we did.
My hon. Friend suggests that the Royal Household should be treated as a Department of State. I think he will realise the implications. If it were a Department of State—in other words, an employing Department—with 75 per cent. of its total expenditure being staff costs, it would be automatic for that Department to come to this House to ensure that there were votes of sufficient money to pay those wages and salaries.
Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, even after the increase that he is proposing, the cost of our democratic monarchy is far less than that of most of the corrupt and despotic dictatorships of Eastern Europe which are so warmly supported by his hon. Friends behind him?
The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman's concluding words are typical of the nonsense that we get from some hon. Gentlemen opposite. I do not accept the words that he used. I thought that this House wanted good relations with the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. Some of us hope to do something to help those good relations tomorrow. I do not intend, while I am in Moscow, to make any inquiries into the total cost of the administration of the Head of State office.
Mr. Faulds: Does the Prime Minister agree that most people in this country believe that the services of the Royals, even at the expenditure of such moneys, are cheap at the price if they prevent the emergence of populists such as President Powell or President Wedgie Benn?
The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is the second of those behind me to parade his favourite obsession this afternoon.
Mr. Molloy: My hon. Friend is a fifth-rate actor.
Mr. Skinner: He wants a job.
The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend had a Shadow job once. I have the greatest regard for my hon. Friend. Indeed, I remember when he acted as sponsor to the would-be President Taverne. Leaving aside the concluding words of my hon. Friend's remarks, which he read beautifully—he needs a new script writer, if I may say so—I agree with his opening words.
Mr. Faulds: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Even from my right hon. Friend, for whom I have such high regard, I cannot accept the accusation that I ever read my questions or that anybody writes my scripts.
The Prime Minister: That was the point. I apologise to my hon. Friend. I was not suggesting that he was reading his question. That would be out of order. I was saying that I thought that he was following his own script. When I suggested that he should change his script writer, I meant that he should have someone other than himself to write for him.
Mr. Eldon Griffiths: Since the Labour Party is so concerned with the public expenditure consequences of what the Prime Minister has announced, may I ask whether he is aware that the salaries alone, not counting other expenses, of the additional 250 civil servants to be recruited to do the unproductive paper work of the National Enterprise Board will cost more than double the entire cost of the Royal Household? If hon. Gentlemen opposite are concerned about public expenditure, will the Prime Minister remind them that in terms of value for money we do a great deal better

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from the monarchy than we shall do from all these new retainers at the court of King Wedgwood Benn?
The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is now the third hon. Member to parade his well known obsession. The hon. Gentleman should just have stood up and bowed and we would have known what he wanted to say. What he said does not arise from the statement that I made this afternoon. I hope that we shall long continue to hear the hon. Gentleman from the Opposition back benches.
Mr. Atkinson: Does my right hon. Friend accept that, despite the large amount of money involved, contrary to popular belief many employees of the Royal Household and estates are not getting anything like the increases recommended within the TUC guidelines? Does he also accept that, as the Royal Household and estates represent such a large proportion of our national resources, now is the time to reconsider seriously the productivity and purposes of those estates and whether we can devise some means of putting them to better use or increasing their productivity rather than having unnecessary similar statements at such frequent intervals? Is there not a case for having a fresh look at the position of the monarchy and the purposes of the Royal estates in future?
The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for what he said. It is a fact that where comparability can be established and demonstrated—many employees of the Royal Household and estates are members of the same trade unions as those employed in other Civil Service or quasi-Civil Service jobs—the employees are given the same conditions and payments as those in the Civil Service proper. They are not civil servants, but they are treated in that way.
Over the years the Civil Service has scrupulously followed both the statutory controls of the previous Government and the TUC guidelines, and this example has been followed in the determination of the salaries and remuneration of comparable grades at the Court. My hon. Friend says—and I should like to know more about this—that he thinks that on the whole the employees concerned have been unfairly treated compared with people doing comparable work—work which I think is
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described in the Civil Service by the horrible word "analogues". If that is so, it still further strengthens the case for enabling Her Majesty the Queen, as employer, to pay those who do a thorough job of work for her in accordance with what is regarded as reasonable remuneration.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. These matters will all be debated again.
Following is the information:
Section 1(1) of the Civil List Act 1972 provided for the payment of £980,000 a year from the Consolidated Fund for the Queen's Civil List. That sum exceeded the annual expenditure at that time. The Act provided for surpluses to be accumulated by the Royal Trustees and applied to meet deficits in subsequent years. At the time when Parliament was considering the 1972 Act it was expected that the provisions in the Act would suffice to cover expenditure for a period of about five years.
When the position was reviewed at the end of 1973 it was estimated that the existing provision under Section 1(1) of the Act, together with the surplus accumulated from 1972 and 1973, would suffice to meet Civil List expenditure in 1974 and 1975. In the event, however, costs and prices have risen faster than was foreseen. Despite continuing economies in the Royal Household, Civil List expenditure in 1970 rose to £1,180,000, which was met as to £980,000 from the Consolidated Fund grant for the year, as to £137,000 from the accumulated surplus at the disposal of the Royal Trustees (which was thereby exhausted), and as to £63,000 by Her Majesty herself from her Privy Purse.
The legislation which the Government propose to introduce for the future would allow the payments authorised under the Civil List Act 1972, as amended by the order now being laid before the House, to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund under the authority of the Civil List Acts, and would authorise the Government to pay such additional amounts as might be required from 1976 onwards to be provided by means of a grant in aid to the Royal Trustees out of monies provided by Parliament.
It would be the Government's intention that, in so far as the provision was to meet expenditure on wages and salaries in the Royal Household, it should be adjusted each year to take account of pay increases negotiated for the Civil Service on the basis of the agreed and established pay links; and that, in so far as the provision was to meet other expenses, it should be adjusted to take account of movements in prices. But the adjustment would not be automatic: this system of providing for increases in the Civil List in the estimates would enable the amounts of the provision to be adjusted to take account also of changes in the level of expenditure in real terms, reflecting, for example, changes in the pattern of the official activities of the Royal Family.

SOCIAL SECURITY ACT 1973 (AMENDMENT) BILL
4.1 p.m.
Mr. Nicholas Ridley: I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend Section 1(7) of the Social Security Act 1973 so that those holding elective office revert to being classed as self-employed.
Mr. Speaker: Order. Will hon. Members who wish to withdraw please do so quietly and conduct their conversations outside the Chamber?
Mr. Ridley: We have been concerned today with matters of the remuneration of those in the public eye. It is perhaps fitting that we should now look again at the status in employment terms of hon. Members and elected councillors.
After the immediate post-war social security legislation, Members of Parliament were regarded as being self-employed. We remained so until the Social Security Act 1973, when we changed our status to that of being employed—employed by whom, I know not. We should have been more vigilant at that time to look after our non-dependent status, and should not have passed that part of the Act. My purpose is to reverse it.
As employed persons, we shall pay a national insurance contribution of about £197 a year. If we were to revert to being self-employed, we should pay a contribution at a flat rate under Class 2 of about £125 and a further contribution of £163 under Class 4, making £288 in total. My suggestion will certainly cost us more money. However, if the House seeks to place upon the self-employed the burdens placed upon them by the recent Act, which have been much resented, the first thing we should seek to do is to saddle ourselves with similar burdens. We should not try to evade the consequences of the increase in the self-employed's contribution. We should not get out of paying it by remaining employed.
I admit that there was some coincidence in the matter, in that the previous Government introduced the Social Security Act 1973 and the present Government increased the contributions of the self-employed. I make no party
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accusation. I merely say that the coincidence of circumstances is such that it is offensive to those outside who are called upon to pay the new contributions, and that it ill-behoves us to accept that situation.
Secondly, those of us who have employments outside the House as well—I declare an interest, as one of them—will be called upon to pay extra contributions by virtue of those other employments. We shall be paying the maximum of £288. Therefore, the Bill will make no difference to those with other employments besides membership of the House. The only people whom it will affect financially will be those who have no other employment, who will be called upon to pay an increased contribution.
I do not know whether there is any intention to vote against my motion. If there is a Division, hon. Members should bear in mind that they will have to explain to their constituents how they could vote to resist paying more from their salaries to put themselves on a level with others outside the House whom we have called upon to pay higher contributions.
But that is not the main burden of my argument in favour of this short Bill. My main point is that, as hon. Members, we cannot be employed by anyone, and should not demean ourselves with the implied employed or dependent status in the expression "employed". I do not know who is supposed to employ a Member of Parliament under the 1973 Act. If it be the Crown, it is odd that we should recently have been discussing whether we should increase the emoluments of the Crown. If it be the Government, it is all the worse. The Leader of the House has demonstrated his abilities as an employer in relation to the right hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Stonehouse). I should hate to be dependent upon him or any executive for my employment. I go further, and suggest that the position of being employed is in contravention of our duties to hold no office of profit under the Crown. I even doubt whether it is right for us to be Members while we remain employed.
Therefore, it seems to me right that we should change the situation before April, so that we then cease to be employed and revert to the status of self-employed which we had always had. That would be in accord with the traditions of this

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honourable House and more nearly in tune with the feelings of the public, when those who have been classified as self-employed have been called upon to pay bigger social security contributions.
I ask the House not only to give me leave to bring in the Bill but to give it a speedy passage. If the House accepts that it should be introduced, it is incumbent upon hon. Members to give me time to pass the Bill through all its stages before the beginning of April. Otherwise, the House will be seeking to evade the issue, meeting me on the matter of principle which I have just advanced but hoping that the Bill will never find its way on to the statute book simply because of the inactivity of the governing party. If leave is given to bring in the Bill, there will be an onus on the Government to make sure that this small but important measure reaches the statute book in time to prevent our remaining "employed"
Question put and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Nicholas Ridley, Mr. Peter Rees, Mr. Norman Lamont and Mr. Eldon Griffiths.

SOCIAL SECURITY ACT 1973 (AMENDMENT) BILL
  SOCIAL SECURITY ACT 1973 (AMENDMENT)
  Mr. Nicholas Ridley accordingly presented a Bill to amend Section 1(7) of the Social Security Act 1973 so that those holding elective office revert to being classed as self-employed: and the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 84.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY
  TRADE UNION AND LABOUR RELATIONS (AMENDMENT) BILL
  As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.
  TRADE UNION AND LABOUR RELATIONS (AMENDMENT) BILL
    Clause 1

      REPEALS OF THE PRINCIPAL ACT
      4.10 p.m.
      Mr. Barney Hayhoe: I beg to move Amendment No. 1, in page 1, line 8, leave out paragraph (a).
      Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. George Thomas): With this we can also discuss the following amendments:
      No. 3, in Clause 2, page 1, line 22, at beginning insert:
      '( ) For section 5(3) and (4) of the principal Act (Rights of workers as to arbitrary or unreasonable exclusion or expulsion from trade union) there shall be substituted the following subsections:
      "(3A) A worker aggrieved by his exclusion or expulsion from any trade union, branch or section may apply to a Tribunal appointed for the adjudication of such grievances for a declaration that he is entitled to be a member of that union, branch or section.
      (3B) The Tribunal shall be appointed by the General Council of the Trades Union Congress in consultation with the Secretary of State and the Chairman of the Conciliation and Arbitration Service and shall have an independent person with legal qualifications as chairman and two other members.
      (3C) The procedure at such a Tribunal shall be in accordance with rules made by the Trades Union Congress and approved by the Council on Tribunals.
      (3D) If at any time there is not existent such a Tribunal and such rules, such an application may be made instead to an industrial tribunal in accordance with industrial tribunal regulations.
      (4) Where any such declaration has been made or by the Tribunal or by an industrial tribunal, as the case may be and has not been implemented by the union, branch or section concerned within any period specified in the declaration or if no such period is specified within a reasonable period, the worker may apply to the High Court or, in Scotland, the Court of Session for an injunction, interdict or such other relief (including compensation) as the Court may think just and expedient in all the circumstances of the case"'.

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      No. 5, in Clause 2, page 1, line 22, at beginning insert:
      '( ) For section 5(3) and (4) of the principal Act (Rights of workers as to arbitrary or unreasonable exclusion or expulsion from trade unions) there shall be substituted the following subsections:—

      "(3A) A worker aggrieved by his exclusion or expulsion from any trade union, branch or section may apply to a tribunal appointed for the adjudication of such grievances for a declaration that he is entitled to be a member of that trade union, branch or section.

      (3B) The tribunal shall be appointed by the Secretary of State in consultation with the General Council of the Trades Union Congress and the Chairman of the Conciliation and Arbitration Service and shall have an independent person with legal qualifications as chairman and two other members.

      (3C) The procedure at such a tribunal shall be in accordance with rules made by the Trades Union Congress and approved by the Council on Tribunals.

      (3D) If at any time there is not existent such a Tribunal and such rules, such an application may be made instead to an industrial tribunal in accordance with industrial tribunal regulations.

      (4) Where any such declaration has been made or by the tribunal or by an industrial tribunal as the case may be and has not been implemented by the union, branch or section concerned within any period specified in the declaration or if no such period is specified within a reasonable period, the worker may apply to the High Court or in Scotland, the Court of Session for an injunction, interdict or such relief (including compensation) as the court may think just and expedient in all the circumstances of the case".'
      Mr. Hayhoe: Amendment No. 1 is a paving amendment for the other amendments which you. Mr. Deputy Speaker, have indicated we can discuss with it.
      We regard this as a thoroughly bad Bill. We do not like any part of it. However, the House gave it a Second Reading and some minor changes were made in Committee. We seek by this amendment and by others which will be moved by us to improve the Bill. By this amendment we seek to maintain rights and safeguards for individuals who have been excluded or expelled from trade union membership in an arbitrary or discriminatory fashion. I think there is total agreement in the House that, though the numbers involved are small, the principle is important and it is right that the House should consider and seek ways of dealing with it in a proper fashion.
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      Safeguards were written into the 1974 legislation when Parliament insisted that they be included. They were the subject of quite tight votes, but Parliament decided that provision for them should be made. Now the Governemnt are seeking, once again, to eliminate those safeguards, despite a series of undertakings given by the Secretary of State and others in our debates on these matters. The right hon. Gentleman has gone back on his repeated undertakings or indications that the Government would deal legislatively with the situation.
      I remind the House briefly of those commitments. On 22nd March 1974 we were informed that
      "Consideration is being given to providing either in this Bill"—
      that was the 1974 Bill—
      "or a later one, safeguards against arbitrary exclusion or expulsion from union membership".—[Official Report, 22nd March 1974 Vol. 871, c. 1488.]
      That was the trailer for something which was to follow either in the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act 1974 or in later legislation.
      On 7th May, in column 231 of the Official Report of that date, there was a clear implication that legislation would be prepared. On 23rd May, in columns 202 and 212 of the Official Report of the Standing Committee proceedings on the Bill, the Minister of State referred to this matter. I accept that he did not give an absolute assurance, but what was said on that occasion and on other occasions clearly indicated that the Government were considering a legislative solution.
      On 10th July, during the Report stage of the 1974 Bill, the Secretary of State said that the Government would deal with the matter
      "either in this Bill or in the later Bill [Official Report, 10th July 1974; Vol 876, c. 1391.]
      In column 1395 there was reference to the possibility that the method of dealing with it in a Bill would be by a code of practice.
      On 30th July, when the House considered the Lords amendments, we had a clear statement from the Secretary of State when he said:
      "I repeat all the undertakings that we certainly intend to proceed to deal with it in some form or other, either in a code of

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      practice or by some other means, but following consultations with the General Council of the TUC, when we introduce the next Bill in the autumn—the Employment Protection Bill."—[Official Report, 30th July 1974; Vol. 878, c. 503.]
      In other words, the matter would be deal with in a Bill.
      4.15 p.m.
      On 3rd December, on Second Reading of this Bill, the Secretary of State said:
      "… we have always claimed and said in all our debates that if we were to reinstitute the legaliy of the closed shop it would be necessary to have some kind of special further safeguard over and above the common law."—[Official Report, 3rd December 1974; Vol. 981, c. 1373.]
      After all that build-up, over every stage of the former legislation and during the Second Reading of this Bill, indicating that legislation would be forthcoming, the Government now say "We shall not legislate. We shall do nothing to protect and provide safeguards for the individual". The Government will be totally inactive and will leave the matter to the TUC. The Secretary of State indicated on Second Reading what the TUC had in mind. However, although it has put forward proposals for a review committee, it has vetoed any Government action. When the Secretary of State and other Ministers have said that they will do certain things, they meant that someone else would do them and that they would do nothing.
      We welcome the TUC initiative and the setting up of the review committee. It is reasonable for us to suppose that if it had not been for the debates initiated by the Opposition precious little would have come from the TUC. However, putting that on one side, I welcome the action it has taken. But that action alone is not enough. How can it be, in view of what the Secretary of State said last year; namely, that safeguards and protection for the small number of individuals who might be adversely affected would require legislative backing and authority and at least the barest bones of some enforcement provisions to ensure that decisions would be brought into effect?
      The good faith of the Government and of individual Ministers is at test, and for that reason we have tabled Amendment No. 3. It would make provision in the Bill for the review committee which the TUC has said will be set up. Indeed, we use the same words as were used by
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      the TUC about the composition of the tribunal. We have given it just a touch of statutory backing by including it in the legislation and saying that the procedure it follows should be that approved by the Council on Tribunals. We have gone on to put in a minimum of enforcement or implementation backing for these arrangements.
      The amendment tabled by members of the Liberal Party, Amendment No. 5, goes beyond the proposal in our amendment. It reiterates the position adopted in earlier debates by the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Smith), who felt that it would be right for the Secretary of State to appoint and to have responsibility for the review body, after consultation with the TUC and the CAS. I am sure that my right hon. and hon. Friends would be happy if the Government were willing to accept Amendment No. 5. We sought in our amendment to narrow the scope down to the smallest intervention by Government. I accept we may not have the drafting as satisfactory as it should be, but I hope that we will deal with the real issues rather than such pedantic points. There are ways in which these matters can be put right.
      There is a further argument used by the Secretary of State against provisions of this kind. On 3rd December he said that they would lead to industrial pressures. He referred to the effect of the 1971 Act. The right hon. Gentleman is guilty of grotesque exaggeration. The figures issued by his Department show that in the last four months of 1974 many more days were lost as a result of industrial disputes than were lost as a result of the existence of the Industrial Relations Act—or proposals for that Act—in the four-year period from the 1970 General Election until the repeal of the Act last year.
      Those are the figures contained in Hansard in answers to Questions and in the Department of Employment Gazette. The Secretary of State's argument that this legislative protection, this safeguard for the individual, can lead to damaging industrial clashes does not bear examination. If we take 1974 quarter by quarter and compare it with the previous year we can see that in the second quarter, after the Labour Government came into power, for every four days lost in 1973

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      five days were lost in 1974. That was when the Government had announced that the Industrial Relations Act would be repealed.
      In the third quarter of 1974, when the repeal measure was going through the House, for every four days lost in 1973 six days were lost in 1974. If we now take the fourth quarter of 1974, when the Industrial Relations Act had been fully repealed—and when the General Election of the autumn was over—for every four days lost through industrial disputes in 1973 nine days were lost in 1974. This cuts the ground from the Secretary of State's assertion that legislative proposals of this kind were leading to a large number of days being lost.
      I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will respond positively to these amendments. Or is he so tightly constrained by the TUC that no departure, however small, is possible from what that body seeks to achieve in legislation? Is the TUC veto upon the Secretary of State so utterly complete that the right hon. Gentleman cannot move at all to give legislative backing to an attempt to provide safeguards for those who may be adversely affected by arbitrary exclusion or expulsion from a union? The test of the Secretary of State will be in his response to these amendments. I hope that he will find it in his heart to agree to them.
      Mr. Cyril Smith: I support Amendment No. 1 but wish to speak to Amendment No. 5 standing in my name and the names of my hon. Friends. I would have thought that at the present stage the Government could have found a better use for their time rather than using it to insist upon having their own way in this Bill. All that the Bill is about is removing from the previous measure those things on which the Government were defeated when they were a minority Government, from February to October last year.
      Mr. Tom Litterick: Is the hon. Gentleman suggesting that the Labour Party has no right to carry out its election promises?
      Mr. Smith: No, certainly not. I am suggesting that there are certain parts of the election manifesto which I would have thought would have been considered
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      to be more important than an attempt to deal with six fiddling little amendments all of which were inserted in an attempt to protect the individual against massive trade union power. Collectively they are not of such importance that the Government need to make their removal a priority. I do not challenge the Government's right to do this.
      Of course, when the Secretary of State says "We will do this and that" he is referring to the TUC. I am surprised that anyone should be in any doubt about that. It is becoming increasingly obvious, certainly to my right hon. and hon. Friends and me, that the Minister and the Department are very much in the hands of the TUC. The right hon. Gentleman is not prepared to move in any way if his view is not in accord with that of the TUC. It does not surprise me that he is not willing to make the slightest concession. This is not necessarily because he does not want to do so but because the trade union movement is not prepared to see any concession made. It is obvious that he is virtually a slave of the trade union movement.
      Mr. Dennis Skinner: There is such a thing as a mandate.
      Mr. Smith: I am glad to hear that the hon. Member considers that 39 per cent. of the total vote cast is a mandate. I and my party have always made it clear that we are opposed to the principle of the closed shop and furthermore—
      Mr. Skinner: Play a different record.
      Mr. Smith: If the hon. Member wishes to interrupt me I will let him. I am delighted to see that he is so keenly interested in industrial relations. I hope that he is as keenly interested in ensuring that unskilled labour is not paid at skilled rates and that Members who choose to employ people as private secretaries and draw their salaries for them will ensure that they employ qualified people. I am sure that the hon. Member gets the message.
      4.30 p.m.
      This clause is concerned about the exclusion or expulsion of an individual from a trade union in a closed shop situation. The Liberal amendment seeks to ensure that there is a statutory right of appeal for the individual in that kind

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      of situation, and to ensure that the appeal tribunal, so set up, shall be set up statutorily and shall have statutory powers. As the hon. Member for Brent-ford and Isleworth (Mr. Hayhoe) said, our amendment goes much further than that of the official Opposition. It goes further because we take the view that justice must not only be done in this matter but must be seen to be done.
      While we appreciate very much the TUC's gesture in offering to set up a sort of voluntary tribunal, we believe that it is not sufficient for that tribunal to be set up by the very people against whom the appeal is to be made. In other words, if a person is expelled from or excluded from a union and he wishes to appeal against that, the body to which he appeals would be the trade union movement.
      What we are being asked to accept is that the trade union movement should have the right to appoint the tribunal that is to hear the appeal of the individual against the decision of a trade union. In our amendment we are arguing that it is right that such a tribunal should be set up but that it should be set up by the Secretary of State, and that its members should be appointed by him and not by the TUC. That, basically, is the only difference between us. Who shall appoint the tribunal? Shall it be the TUC or the Secretary of State?
      We believe that however independent may be a tribunal appointed by the TUC, and however it may attempt to give an honest, balanced view of the case before it, ultimately any person who appears before that tribunal and loses his case will inevitably say that he has had a raw deal because the people who tried his case were the people against whom he was appealing.
      I have heard Labour Members talking about the police in relation to such matters. I do not believe that complaints against the police should be investigated by the police, so nor do I believe that complaints against a trade union should be investigated by trade unionists.
      What the TUC suggests is that there should be three people on the tribunal and that one of them, the chairman, should be an independent man who has a knowledge of law. As I said on Second Reading, two from three or one from
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      three means that inevitably, unless the two appointed by the TUC because they are trade unionists disagree, the views of the independent chairman will not be relevant in voting terms, as his vote will be relevant only if the other two are split.
      Our amendment has been tabled because we are extremely anxious about the individual case. We concede that the cases arising will be few. But even if there is only one, we believe that it is the duty of the House to protect the liberty of that individual. Even if only one person is affected adversely by exclusion from or expulsion from a trade union, we believe that it is a vital job for the House to protect that individual and his liberty and to give him or her the opportunity to appeal in that situation to an independent tribunal appointed by the Secretary of State.
      I hope that the Government will feel able to accept our amendment, even at this late stage. I hold out little hope, but with what little hope there is I hope that the Minister will accept the amendment. Neither on this amending Bill nor on the original Act has he made any concessions, or very few, to the views of minorities, or even to the views of substantial majorities. This is an opportunity for him to make a concession which would go a long way to alleviating the fears of many people that the trade union movement is really becoming too powerful. But whether or not it has become too powerful, it is at least necessary to have some sort of braking mechanism within the system to ensure that if the trade union movement were to use its power wrongly, at least the individual would have some right of appeal to an independent statutorily appointed tribunal.
      The Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Michael Foot): The hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Mr. Hayhoe) and the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Smith) have spoken briefly on this subject, but I know that they attach great importance to it. I also attach the greatest importance to it. Therefore, if I reply also briefly that does not mean that I am seeking to minimise the importance of the question in any sense.
      It is the fact, however, as the hon. Gentlemen know as well as anyone, that

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      we have discussed this subject on numerous occasions and, therefore, it is not necessary for us all to cover all the ground on each occasion. I say that in order that no one should think that I am trying to treat the subject in any derogatory fashion. That has not been the way in which I have approached the whole question throughout, or the way in which we have approached the discussions that we have had with the TUC about the matter. As I shall underline shortly, I believe that the agreement which has been reached, or the proposal that has been made by the TUC, is a great step forward and one which should be welcomed by the whole House.
      I am grateful that the hon. Gentlemen have welcomed the proposal, even if they would like something further. I believe that that, at any rate, is an important advance. Therefore, I hope that after the speeches we have now had, no one will say that the proposal of the TUC is in any sense being dismissed as a proposal which is not of considerable significance.
      Let me come to the speech of the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth. I could make some controversial remarks about the figures on strikes. The hon. Gentleman showed his marksmanship when he picked the year 1973 rather than 1972. If he had picked 1972, the first year of the Industrial Relations Act, when that Act was having, perhaps, its full immediate impact, he would have discovered figures very different from those he cited, and very different comparisons. He would have had to face the figure of 24 million days lost—I think it was—during that period. The comparison would be quite different.
      Mr. Hayhoe: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
      Mr. Foot: I do not want to spend much time on this matter. We have other occasions on which to discuss these matters.
      But I underline the fact that many of the heavy figures on strike action and days lost owing to strikes during 1974 we certainly attribute, in the main—not entirely, because there are always complicated reasons which may be adduced to explain different figures—either to the operation of the statutory incomes policy or to the hangover of the statutory in-
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      comes policy. For example, great numbers of the lost days in the National Health Service were certainly due to the way in which the statutory policy was still leaving its effects upon our economy.
      Mr. Hayhoe: There is misunderstanding about this matter. A Written Reply given on Tuesday 5th November by the Minister of State shows that during the period from 1st July 1970 until 31st July 1974 the days lost due to the Industrial Relations Act or proposals for the Act amounted in total to 4,199,000. Therefore, when the Secretary of State talks of 24 million he is not being accurate. In 1972 the number of days lost as a direct result of the Industrial Relations Act was about 400,000. The reason why the days were lost involved other matters concerned with pay and inflation, as was the same last year.
      Mr. Foot: As I said, it would not assist the House if we spent a long time swapping figures. I am only correcting the hon. Gentleman. There is the number of strikes in 1972 and thereafter directly attributable to protests against the Act, and there is also the number of other days lost due to the industrial climate created by the Act. If hon. Members opposite have not understood yet that the 1971 Act helped to poison the industrial relations of this country, they still have a great deal to learn. But we can return to disputes about figures on other occasions.
      I would directly repudiate the hon. Member's accusations about me, especially the suggestion of any breach of faith in the way in which we have approached this question. Some of the quotations that he gave from me contradicted his claim, so it is not necessary for me to contradict it further. The hon. Gentleman was courteous and ill-advised enough to quote from a speech of mine in a section in which I said that we could do it by legislation or by a code of practice or by some other means. It is by some other means that we are seeking to do it, so there is no ground for an accusation of that sort.
      I am not complaining on personal grounds, but I have not misled the House in any particular throughout these discussions. I have sought to tell the House as plainly as I can the Government's thinking and what discussions we have

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      had with the TUC. I have said many times that we took into account the industrial experience of the TUC. It would be foolish for us to approach this subject without doing so. I have tried to give a faithful account, as is my duty, about the form and terms in which we were having discussions with the TUC and the outcome of those discussions. So I deny in the plainest terms that I have been guilty of any breach of faith.
      Of course there are differences about how we are to approach the problem. In this sense I agree with hon. Members opposite, although I am loth to agree with them on this kind of question in any sense at all. My aim has been to secure the best possible protection for the individual who may fall foul of his trade union or get into difficulties, and to provide some safeguard which works, not one that pretends to establish a tribunal to give people satisfaction. What I have tried to do is achieve a means of protecting the individual which will successfully operate in the interests of the individual.
      Because reinstatement is the prize that someone who has fallen into these difficulties would want most, it is much better first to try to settle the issue within the internal machinery of the trade union itself as was recommended by Donovan and is mentioned in the amendment of the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Smith). That is the first way in which the worker can be reinstated in circumstances most advantageous to him.
      The second way under the TUC's procedure is that, having exhausted all the machinery of his own union, he should have an appeal, and not, as the hon. Member for Rochdale said, to the same body as has already judged him. The General Council of the TUC which will be setting up this independent tribunal, in consultation with me and with the Chairman of the CAS and will guarantee its independence. They will see that it is not the same body as judged someone in the first place. It will be a body set up by the whole movement, judging what may happen within and between different unions. In many cases, there will be arguments about how it should be done; but the idea that justice will not be seen to be done on that account I do not believe.
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      The Liberal amendment is slightly more appealing than the Conservative one, although there is not much in it—
      Mr. Hayhoe: Why is it?
      4.45 p.m.
      Mr. Foot: There are some difficulties which the Liberal amendment slightly overcomes, but neither amendment is satisfactory. Both have the common defect of trying to amalgamate the TUC's voluntary system with the compulsory system of legal redress. That would merely injure the possibility of the voluntary system succeeding.
      Leaving aside the question of appeal to the High Court on grounds of breach of natural justice, which remains untouched by our proposals, it would alter the way in which the TUC system would operate if it were thought that there was another tribunal to which, after appeal to the TUC tribunal, a further appeal could be made. Therefore, the best way of dealing with the problems involved in the reinstatement of people who have fallen foul of their union is to give the TUC tribunal a fair chance of operating.
      I do not set any exact period upon this, but within a measurable time a few cases will have been heard. The cases themselves are not numerous, as we all agree, although that does not diminish their significance. After a number of cases have been heard and we have seen how the matter works in practice, people will understand that this was a sensible system and that it would have injured the possibility of success if we had tried to couple it with legal methods.
      Mr. Christopher Tugendhat: Does the right hon. Gentleman regard the trade union movement as unique in the sense that it should be self-policing, or should the principles that he has just enunciated apply with equal force, let us say, in the City in take-over matters and questions of shareholders' rights or when people are complaining against the police? Is it a universal principle, or are the trade unions special, as is so often the case?
      Mr. Foot: It is not a question of the unions being special. There are circumstances in which outside bodies should have powers to intervene, but there are also many other bodies which have a perfect right to conduct their own affairs

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      as long as they do so in the open. Under this proposed procedure, individual unions have agreed that if there is criticism of the way in which they have treated individual members, that allegation will be judged not by the individual's union but by a body of experts established by the whole movement. That seems a perfectly creditable way of going about it. I am concerned about the protection of the individual. I believe that it will be a better way of protecting individuals.
      The hon. Gentleman said that he was seeking to make only the slightest possible difficulty for the Government in the moderate amendment which he has put forward. I acknowledge that the Opposition have made a concession to the Government in that they have incorporated the proposal for the TUC tribunal in the amendment. That is correct, but, as I have already argued, I believe it is a hybrid proposal when it is allied with the legal sanction.
      My final objection to the amendment is of a more formidable nature than the objections which I have already put forward on the general grounds. That is particularly so in view of what the hon Gentleman said about the desire to make the slightest possible interference with our proposals and to make his proposal as appealing to us as possible. There is the difficulty that the Opposition's proposal retains subsection (5) of Section 5 of the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act 1974. That is the Act which this measure will amend. The subsection aims to preserve common law rights of action. I am not arguing whether it is necessary, desirable or superfluous to have that section to protect common law rights when there have been cases of a breach of natural justice. As we have argued with overwhelming success on previous occasions, it is not necessary to have such a section for that purpose. There is no interference with that concept in our Bill, nor was there ever any interference with common law rights in our previous Bill. Appeal to the High Court on the grounds that were available before was protected in the Act and there was no need for the clause to be inserted. In that sense it is superfluous.
      I have the highest authority in the land for saying that. The Lord Chancellor has repeated that view to me most strongly, as he has in another place. I
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      do not think that we shall have any quarrel on that aspect of the matter. What the hon. Gentleman has not appreciated or what he has not fully understood—this is particularly so in view of his claim that he is seeking to make that his amendment as appealing to us as possible—is that Section 5 (5), which he seeks to retain, involves many other parts of the Act. If he has not understood that, it makes the matter all the more sinister. His amendment might undermine the long-standing legal immunities given by Section 2(5) of the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act to trade union members in respect of the purposes of their unions in restraint of trade and the legality and enforceability of trade union rules in restraint of trade.
      The assertion of common law rights in a comprehensive form as set out in the amendment subverts—I am told that that is the proper legal way in which to put it—the provisions for protecting trade unions in other matters. That is very serious. It is all the more serious when the hon. Gentleman says that he has done it by accident. Even by accident the Conservative Opposition try to interfere with the rights of trade unions. When they do it on purpose we get an Act such as the 1971 Act. When they do it by accident we get a clause such as the one before us. On that ground, too, I ask the House to reject the amendment.
      Section 5(5) of the 1974 Act undermines essential immunities for trade unions which, except for the 1971 Act, have existed unchallenged since 1871. Therefore, I hope on that ground at least that we can come to a speedy agreement to reject the amendment. It is a peculiar affair that the Opposition at this late stage should have tried to rush an amendment such as this through the House. That is surprising when my hon. Friend the Minister of State gave due warning of this matter in Committee. They have put forward on Report this amendment, which carries the threat that I have outlined—"threat" is not too strong a word in the context of normal trade union rights—not only in the face of common sense but in the face of the warnings that my hon. Friend gave in Committee.
      Mr. Hayhoe: The right hon. Gentleman is making a good deal of subsection (5). It is interesting to recall that when

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      he was dealing with it on 30th July 1974, instead of producing the arguments that he now puts forward all he could say was:
      "I cannot believe that subsection (5) is necessary. It is inconceivable that the courts would construe the existence of the clause as cutting down any common law rights."—[Official Report, 30th July 1974; Vol. 878, c. 504.]
      Nothing was said then about subversion. The right hon. Gentleman is now making the sinister accusation that my hon. Friends and I are bringing something out of the bag at the last moment. I do not believe that there is any justification for what he has been saying.
      Mr. Foot: There is no question of bringing it out of the bag at the last moment. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will do me and my hon. Friend the Minister of State the courtesy of looking up the discussion that took place in Committee. He will there see—
      Mr. Hayhoe: Which Bill?
      Mr. Foot: The Bill that is now before us, the Bill which we are discussing by an extraordinary coincidence. In the discussion in Committee the hon. Gentleman will discover the warning that was given by my hon. Friend. Unfortunately, that warning was neglected. That is a further reason for rejecting the amendment.
      My principal reason for asking the House to reject the amendment and to accept the Government's proposals is, however, that I believe the TUC proposals offer the best way of protecting the rights of individuals who may be in difficulties for the reasons that have been described. If the proposed tribunal to be set up by the trade unions works successfully, I believe that the few individuals who are involved in such cases will be better protected than they would be by any other means. But if we found—this has been said before—that after a period my prophecy proved to be incorrect, the Government would come to the House and propose further measures.
      I have said from the beginning that in a closed shop situation there must be protection for individuals who might be in the sort of difficulties that have been described. We believe that we have provided the best kind of protection. We ask
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      the House and the country to give it a fair trial. We ask them to judge who was right. If we are proved wrong we will be prepared to consider the matter again. I believe that it is in the interests of the country, in the interests of good industrial relations and in the interests of the individuals concerned that we should give this proposition a fair trial.
      Sir David Renton: It is clear from the right hon. Gentleman's speech that on aims there is not much which divides the two sides of the House. There are three issues which arise, and on each of those issues the aims are almost identical. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to bear in mind the possible advantage of achieving the aims which he has expressed by a method that claims all-party agreement. At any rate, that would be the position as far as the Labour. Conservative and Liberal Parties are concerned. Alternatively, the right hon. Gentleman's aims can be achieved by a process which divides the House. The right hon. Gentleman and the Prime Minister do not hesitate to use the word "divisive" when they think that it is appropriate. On this occasion, when we can so easily agree on the method, it is a pity that the right hon. Gentleman does not seize upon the opportunity of obtaining all-party agreement.
      I shall briefly invite the House to consider three relatively minor differences with which we are concerned. First, there is the declaration of rights of trade unions. The right hon. Gentleman and my right hon. and hon. Friends are agreed that members of trade unions should have certain rights in relation to their own unions, including the right not to be unreasonably expelled or excluded from their unions. The right hon. Gentleman, by his wholesale repeal of Section 5 of the 1974 Act, including subsections (1) and (2), is going to remove from the area of expression by Parliament of those rights this particular declaration of rights. He is going to leave it to the rules of trade unions to declare those rights. That is not progress. That is going back. That is regrettable, however much faith he or the rest of us may have in the undertakings which have been given by the TUC in his discussions with that body. It was spelt out in the statute, a statute which was passed by the right hon. Gentleman's Government in the last Parliament,

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      and it is a pity that we should now have this repeal, especially as he agrees that these rights should exist.
      5.0 p.m.
      There is the second question about the way in which those rights should be—if he will forgive the word—enforced. It is, after all, a question of enforcing the rights. We agree with him that in the first place a member of a trade union who looks like being unreasonably expelled should take the matter up with the union. That would be the normal process, and we agree that that should happen. It is only when he does not get satisfaction or feels that he is not being justly treated that there arises the question of the method of appeal which should be made available to him.
      Here again there is no great difference between us. The right hon. Gentleman has said that the Trades Union Congress agreed upon certain arrangements for considering these appeals within the trade union movement. My hon. Friends, in the amendment which they have submitted and which the Secretary of State himself has described as moderate—[Interruption.]
      I should be grateful if I could have the attention of the right hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Gentleman's attention seems to be elsewhere. On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I should be very grateful if I could have the attention of the right hon. Gentleman. We listened very carefully to him, and I am endeavouring now to reply to some of the points which he made.
      We say: very well, the right hon. Gentleman has had these discussions with the TUC, which agrees that a procedure should be established within the trade union movement. Why not spell this out in the way proposed in the amendment, in order that everybody can know that it has the backing of Parliament? That gives it a sanction—a sanctity, if you like—which I should have thought would be welcome, but the right hon. Gentleman says that he does not want that. At any rate, the gulf between us is very narrow.
      The only other point on the question of appeal is whether the existing machinery for going before an industrial tribunal, which is, after all a good deal more independent, should be made avail-
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      able to a trade union member or somebody who is aggrieved by being excluded from a trade union. What is the objection to this well-established machinery which has helped a great many members of trade unions and those wanting to join trade unions to have doubts and differences settled? Why bring this procedure to an end? There seems to be no valid reason for doing so.
      I come to the third point, which arises on the fact that under the amendment Section 5(5) of the 1974 Act—and I notice that it is a subsection which preserves common law rights—is to be left as it stands. I am not sure how strongly my hon. Friends feel about this, but I think I am right in saying that they do not feel strongly about it if it gives rise to some technical or drafting difficulty. If the right hon. Gentleman could indicate that there is no difference between us in principle and that, therefore, a simple drafting amendment or a consequential amendment or two in another place would put the matter right, why does he not immediately say so and have the generosity and good will to try to achieve all-party agreement on this very important matter, on which it is far better that he should try to carry the House instead of obstinately digging his feet in on matters on which there is no great difference between us? I implore the right hon. Gentleman to think again.
      This is an important matter which affects millions of people. It must be of far greater satisfaction to them if these trade union rights are spelt out in a way which receives all-party agreement, instead of merely having the backing of the Government, who have the support of only 40 per cent. of the electorate.
      Mr. Leon Brittan: I support these amendments. The Secretary of State has assured the House on this and other occasions in his most earnest manner that the procedure to be adopted by the TUC was a genuine attempt to provide an independent body to which appeal could be made if members of trade unions believed themselves to be unfairly excluded or expelled from trade unions. It is in the spirit of that statement that we on this side of the House speak today.
      Many of us have decided reservations about whether such an appeal tribunal

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      appointed by the TUC is the most appropriate way of dealing with this matter. Many of us feel that there was no objection to having the matter dealt with by the industrial tribunals, which could comprise representatives from both sides of industry as well as an independent legally qualified chairman. However, for the purpose of this amendment we are prepared to accept that the solution favoured by the Secretary of State should be adopted, and all that we are seeking to do in this amendment is to render that solution slightly more acceptable to those who have genuine worries about the procedure and method of operation of the independent tribunal to be set up by the TUC. That is all we are doing.
      The arguments which are put forward against this solution by the Secretary of State are twofold. The second one relates to the implications of Section 5(5) of the 1974 Act. I suggest that the point made in relation to that by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Huntingdonshire (Sir D. Renton) is a complete answer to it. This is not something on which we on this side of the House seek to insist, though I have considerable doubts whether that section has the implication and the effect suggested by the Secretary of State.
      It is noticeable that in the Committee debates to which the Secretary of State referred, the Minister of State put the matter in a very tentative way. He said that Section 5(5) "may" undermine unity. He said that some who are expelled or excluded "may" find that they do not have protection in respect of their common law rights or restraint of trade. I doubt whether the consequences which are feared really flow from that section. It they do, the answer is the simple one put forward by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Huntingdonshire. It will not do for the Secretary of State in his most sinister manner to hold out in terrorem the consequences of that provision as if it were a dire threat to trade union rights. If that is the best argument that he can address against these amendments, they ought to be accepted without any hesitation whatsoever.
      Let us turn to the first argument advanced by the Secretary of State against
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      these amendments. It was, as I understood, that in some sense the system of an independent body set up by trade unions to consider appeals would be undermined if it were made a hybrid body by some kind of statutory recognition or intervention. That is a very abstract and theoretical proposition, and it requires closer analysis in terms of the amendment. I could understand that the Secretary of State might feel that way if what was proposed was that the tribunal appointed by the TUC was constantly to be interfered with by the ordinary courts, that one could constantly go from that tribunal to the High Court or the Industrial Tribunal on interlocutory or intermediate points, that there would be constant interference and supervision. In that case I could understand the Secretary of State feeling that the TUC-appointed body was becoming so enmeshed by the ordinary legal procedure that for those members of the trade union movement who did not regard that procedure as appropriate for the resolution of a dispute it would become an unacceptable process.
      What is proposed, however, does not begin to go as far as that. It relates essentially to two matters. I thought that I heard the Secretary of State talk about an appeal from the trade union-appointed body. There is no provision for such an appeal in the amendment. Two provisions are made. First, the procedure of such a tribunal shall be in accordance with rules produced by the TUC and approved by the Council on Tribunals. The Council on Tribunals is not a court but an administrative body regulating the procedure of a wide variety of tribunals. It does not come within the judicial structure. Once those rules were approved the Council on Tribunals would in no way be involved with the TUC-appointed body. Its task would be finished. There would, therefore, be no hybrid body, simply a process at the beginning of the operation of the TUC-appointed body to ensure, as I am sure would be the wish of the trade union movement, that the rules were at least as fair as those of countless other bodies supervised by the Council on Tribunals. That does not make the body a hybrid, nor does it involve the taint of interference or admixture with the courts, if such a taint were thought to exist in the event that such a situation were to happen.

      409
      The second matter relates not to any question of an appeal from the decision of the TUC body but to the situation in which the judgment of that body is not enforced. The Secretary of State thinks, and he may well be right, that the TUC-appointed body will have such authority and will command such respect that its conclusions will automatically be enforced by the trade unions concerned. I hope he is right. If he is, the other aspect of the amendment never even begins to come into play. In such a case a trade union enforces a decision of an independent body, and that is the end of the matter. There will be no admixture, no further intervention.
      This provision relates only to the situation which the Secretary of State believes will never arise, namely, that the decision of the tribunal is not implemented by the trade union concerned. Only in that case, or in the purely hypothetical case where the TUC-appointed tribunal has not been appointed, does it become possible for the individual concerned to apply to the High Court for relief and, in effect, for enforcement of the decision not of a judicial body but of the body that has been appointed by the TUC.
      The amendment therefore relates to a situation which the right hon. Gentleman says will never happen, so he surely has nothing to fear from that aspect of the amendment. To suggest that the amendments in any way taint the operation of this independent body is an unsupportable proposition which does not stand up to close scrutiny. The amendments do not taint the new body but support it and will give greater confidence to those who have reservations about it but wish it well if only it can be given certain procedural backing.
      5.15 p.m.
      Mr. Hayhoe: It might be for the convenience of the House if this debate ends fairly soon, but I underline the Secretary of State's view that the fact that speeches have been brief is in no way an indication that the subject is any the less important. There is great public interest in the amendments we are to discuss next, and it might be as well to begin the debate on them fairly soon.
      I wish to reply to two major points raised by the Secretary of State. I want, too, to underline what was said by my
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      right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Huntingdonshire (Sir D. Renton) and my hon. Friend the Member for Cleveland and Whitby (Mr. Brittan). The question about the hybrid nature of the amendment was answered by the Secretary of State on Second Reading. He was then justifying the position of the TUC review body by saying that if its decision was not enforced it would be possible in some cases at least for the aggrieved party to seek a remedy in the High Court. He was quite happy then to have the courts involved and he seemed to be suggesting that the recommendation by the review body would be an important factor taken into account by the courts. The difference between us, therefore, is very small in this respect.
      The right hon. Gentleman made what appeared to be a more substantial point about subsection (5). Characteristically, perhaps, he was less than fair in his suggestion that the subsection subverted the very basis of trade union legal authority, and in basing that suggestion on what was said by the Minister of State in Committee, which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cleveland and Whitby pointed out, was a very tentative suggestion that the proposal might have undesirable side effects. The Minister of State, with his characteristic fairness, in such sharp contrast to the attitude of the Secretary of State, said that he did not think it was the intention of those who proposed Section 5 to seek that side effect. Of course, the Minister of State was right. I think the point was covered by what I said in moving the amendment, that if there were drafting difficulties—and the Minister of State accepted that that might be the case—these were matters which could be adjusted. That is all there is between us.
      To talk of subversion and sinister motives is characteristic of the Secretary of State. There he is getting into the matters that he knows best. He is lost when he seeks to deal with the reality of the amendments, because it is clear that, in contrasting the Liberal amendment and my amendment, he does not understand them. He does not understand the difference between the two drafts, because the only difference between them is something for which he does not wish. My amendment deals with the review body to be established by the

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      TUC, whereas the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Smith) feels that the provisions should be tougher and that power should rest with the Secretary of State. So be it.
      The Secretary of State for Employment brings to these matters that characteristic technique of smear and half-truth which we are getting to know better from him, and it still serves the causes which he tries to defend in the House. I therefore hope that unless the Secretary of State can respond in a more constructive and positive manner we shall carry our views to a Division.
      Mr. Foot: With the permission of the House I speak again in reply to hon. Gentlemen. I shall be brief, for the reasons which hon. Gentlemen have also underlined. That does not mean that we attach anything but the greatest importance to the subject.
      I leave aside the suggestions made about myself by the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Mr. Hayhoe). The evening is yet young, and we may be able to deal with all things later. I am glad to see that the hon. Gentleman has dropped the charge of breach of faith which he made against me. No doubt in a subsequent speech he will drop the reference to smears.
      Mr. Hayhoe: I reiterate the charge.
      Mr. Foot: The hon. Gentleman has not produced any evidence to support what he said. He has not contradicted his charge. However, he was kind enough—was it kindness or innocence?—to quote my repudiation of his charges. That is satisfactory from my point of view.
      The right hon. and learned Member for Huntingdonshire (Sir D. Renton) made the constructive suggestion that an important part of his hon. Friend's amendment should be left out to improve it. I agree that that would have been the result. However it is harsh on me to be accused of engaging in a sinister practice in criticising an essential part of the Opposition amendment. That is a novelty. I have been a Member of the House of Commons for a long time. I do not think that accusations should be made against Ministers who apply their minds to an amendment. I should not have thought that that would be regarded
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      as a deep offence by the Opposition. I was entitled to do that and to point out the ramifications and the possible effects of subsection (5). It should not be regarded as a parliamentary offence it I criticise an essential part of an amendment. It would have been a better amendment if the passage had been left out. I should not have been able to use that argument against it as appositely as I was able to do.
      I wish to traverse again the second argument. I believe that the proposals made by the hon. Gentleman and the Liberal Party, in different ways, will impair the possibility—I say that because I like to use moderate language—or the likelihood of the success of the TUC proposal. Although I am interested in whatever charges hon. Gentlemen make against me, I am also interested in protecting the individuals concerned.
      I believe that my way and the proposed TUC way of doing this will protect more individuals against injustice than what is proposed by the Opposition. If it does not, if my judgment is wrong, I think we shall have to look at the matter afresh for the reasons I have given.
      Sir David Renton: To the extent that my hon. Friend's amendment gives parliamentary statutory endorsement to what the right hon. Gentleman has agreed with the TUC, what will be the objection?
      Mr. Foot: The objection is that it carries the matter further in many respects. There is no mystery about the virtue of the method of the TUC, which is that it keeps the law out of the matter. That is what recommends the proposal to the TUC.
      Hon. Gentlemen must accustom themselves to the fact that the experience of the 1971 Act has influenced the attitude of the TUC to all these questions.
      This still leaves the matter of the appeal to the High Court. The TUC did not contest that before, during or after the passing of the 1971 Act. Nor has there been interference with that principle in the measures proposed in either the 1974 Act or the present Bill. The TUC does not want to interfere with that. However, that does not alter the fact that when the TUC set up the tribunal it believed—and I agreed—that it was right to try it. It is better to have

      413
      it in a form which is not subject to the statutory control involved in the Opposition amendments.
      Despite the shortness of this debate, there is the advantage that the House has given a welcome to the TUC proposals. I am grateful that that should be so. Criticisms were made in some of the earlier debates, although the TUC's proposal was not decided. However, I am glad that the former attitude has departed. I am glad to hear that the House of Commons will now assist in going forward with this proposition and will agree, I trust, with our suggestions, so that the tribunal to be established by the TUC will have a fair start. The House of Commons will wish it Godspeed in dealing with these problems. I believe that it will succeed. However, if by any chance it should fail we shall have to think again. I think this is the best course to take in the interests of the freedom of the individual which the Government are protecting.
      Mr. James Prior: The last sentence of the Secretary of State's speech does not ring true for many of my hon. and right hon. Friends. We have travelled a long way to try to understand and meet the point of view of the TUC on this matter. We accept, albeit reluctantly and perhaps sadly, that the 1971 Act has damaged the belief of the TUC in the operation of the law. I do not think that that should prevent this House from putting into legislative form a body which the TUC has agreed to set up and which the Secretary of State has blessed, which is what our amendment will do.
      The right hon. Gentleman says that he hopes that the TUC proposals will work, but if not he will come back to the House with fresh legislation. All we are suggesting is that that proposal should be put on the statute book. We know that cases of this kind are few and far between. They are generally brought by awkward people, some of whom are cranks and some of whom may be sensible.
      I should have thought that the TUC would want the processes to be fair and within the law. They should not only be fair but should be seen to be fair. I suggest that the procedures for which the TUC asks should be written into the law in this form. Parliament will not do justice to a great organisation if it cannot put into the law what it wants, merely because the TUC does not want to have anything to do with the law. I am certain that it does not do justice to the TUC case.
      I do not think the right hon. Gentleman has done justice to it in his reply to the debate. He has tried to score a number of petty drafting points. He has failed to grasp the great importance of the issue at stake. He has not even grasped the fact that we have come so far with him to try to get sense into a delicate situation. I hope that my hon. and right hon. Friends will vote in favour of the amendment.
      Question put, That the amendment be made:—
      The House divided: Ayes 257, Noes 299.

      Division No. 90.]

      AYES

      [5.30 p.m.

      Adley, Robert

      Brotherton, Michael

      Corrie, John

      Aitken, Jonathan

      Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

      Costain, A. P.

      Alison, Michael

      Buchanan-Smith, Alick

      Crouch, David

      Amery, Rt Hon Julian

      Buck, Antony

      Crowder, F. P.

      Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne)

      Budgen, Nick

      Davies, Rt Hon J. (Knutsford)

      Baker, Kenneth

      Bulmer, Esmond

      Dean, Paul (N Somerset)

      Banks, Robert

      Burden, F. A.

      Dodsworth, Geoffrey

      Beith, A. J.

      Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

      Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

      Bell, Ronald

      Carlisle, Mark

      Drayson, Burnaby

      Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay)

      Carr, Rt Hon Robert

      du Cann, Rt Hon Edward

      Benyon, W.

      Chalker Mrs Lynda

      Durant, Tony

      Berry, Hon Anthony

      Channon, Paul

      Dykes, Hugh

      Biffen, John

      Churchill, W. S.

      Eden, Rt Hon Sir John

      Biggs-Davison, John

      Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton)

      Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

      Blaker, Peter

      Clark, William (Croydon S)

      Elliott, Sir William

      Body, Richard

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Emery, Peter

      Boscawen, Hon Robert

      Cockcroft, John

      Eyre, Reginald

      Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown)

      Cooke, Robert (Bristol W)

      Fairbairn, Nicholas

      Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent)

      Cope, John

      Fairgrieve, Russell

      Braine, Sir Bernard

      Cordle, John H.

      Farr, John

      Brittan, Leon

      Cormack, Patrick

      Fell, Anthony

      Finsberg, Geoffrey

      Latham, Michael (Melton)

      Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex)

      Fisher, Sir Nigel

      Lawrence, Ivan

      Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

      Fletcher Alex (Edinburgh N)

      Lawson, Nigel

      Ridley, Hon Nicholas

      Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

      Lester, Jim (Beeston)

      Ridsdale, Julian

      Fookes, Miss Janet

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Rifkind, Malcolm

      Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd)

      Lloyd, Ian

      Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey

      Fox, Marcus

      Loveridge, John

      Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)

      Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St)

      Luce, Richard

      Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

      Fry, Peter

      McAdden, Sir Stephen

      Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

      Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

      McCrindle, Robert

      Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

      Gardiner, George (Reigate)

      Macfarlane, Neil

      Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire)

      Gardner, Edward (S Fylde)

      MacGregor, John

      Royle, Sir Anthony

      Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham)

      Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham)

      Sainsbury, Tim

      Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

      McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury)

      Scott, Nicholas

      Glyn Dr Alan

      McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest)

      Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)

      Godber, Rt Hon Joseph

      Madel, David

      Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)

      Goodhart, Philip

      Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

      Shelton, William (Streatham)

      Goodlad, Alastair

      Marten, Neil

      Shepherd, Colin

      Gorst, John

      Mates, Michael

      Shersby, Michael

      Gow, Ian (Eastbourne)

      Mather, Carol

      Silvester, Fred

      Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry)

      Maude, Angus

      Sims, Roger

      Grant, Anthony (Harrow C)

      Maudling, Rt Hon Reginald

      Sinclair, Sir George

      Gray, Hamish

      Mawby, Ray

      Skeet, T. H. H.

      Grieve, Percy

      Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

      Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)

      Griffiths, Eldon

      Mayhew, Patrick

      Smith, Dudley (Warwick)

      Grist, Ian

      Meyer, Sir Anthony

      Speed, Keith

      Grylls, Michael

      Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove)

      Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)

      Hall, Sir John

      Mills, Peter

      Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)

      Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

      Miscampbell, Norman

      Sproat, Iain

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

      Stainton, Keith

      Hampson Dr Keith

      Moate, Roger

      Stanbrook, Ivor

      Hannam, John

      Monro, Hector

      Stanley, John

      Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye)

      Montgomery, Fergus

      Steel, David (Roxburgh)

      Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss

      Moore, John (Croydon C)

      Steen, Anthony (Wavertree)

      Havers, Sir Michael

      More, Jasper (Ludlow)

      Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)

      Hawkins, Paul

      Morgan, Geraint

      Stokes, John

      Hayhoe, Barney

      Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral

      Tapsell, Peter

      Heseltine, Michael

      Morris, Michael (Northampton S)

      Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)

      Hicks, Robert

      Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

      Tebbit, Norman

      Higgins, Terence L.

      Morrison, Peter (Chester)

      Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret

      Holland, Philip

      Mudd, David

      Thomas, Rt Hon P. (Hendon S)

      Hooson, Emlyn

      Neave, Airey

      Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)

      Hordern, Peter

      Nelson, Anthony

      Townsend, Cyril D.

      Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

      Neubert, Michael

      Trotter, Neville

      Howell David (Guildford)

      Newton, Tony

      Tugendhat, Christopher

      Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

      Nott, John

      van Straubenzee, W. R.

      Howells, Geraint (Cardigan)

      Onslow, Cranley

      Viggers, Peter

      Hunt, John

      Oppenheim, Mrs Sally

      Wainwright, Richard (Colne V)

      Hurd Douglas

      Osborn, John

      Wakeham, John

      Hutchison, Michael Clark

      Page, John (Harrow West)

      Walder, David (Clitheroe)

      Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

      Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)

      Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester)

      Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)

      Pardoe, John

      Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek

      James, David

      Parkinson, Cecil

      Wall, Patrick

      Jessel, Toby

      Pattie, Geoffrey

      Walters, Dennis

      Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead)

      Penhaligon, David

      Warren, Kenneth

      Jones, Arthur (Daventry)

      Percival, Ian

      Weatherill, Bernard

      Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith

      Peyton, Rt Hon John

      Wells, John

      Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

      Pink, R. Bonner

      Whitelaw, Rt Hon William

      Kilfedder, James

      Price, David (Eastleigh)

      Wiggin, Jerry

      Kimball, Marcus

      Prior, Rt Hon James

      Winterton, Nicholas

      King, Evelyn (South Dorset)

      Pym, Rt Hon Francis

      Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton)

      King, Tom (Bridgwater)

      Raison, Timothy

      Younger, Hon George

      Kitson, Sir Timothy

      Rathbone, Tim

      Lamont, Norman

      Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES

      Lane, David

      Rees-Davies, W. R.

      Dr. Gerard Vaughan and

      Langford-Holt, Sir John

      Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts)

      Mr. Spencer Le Marchant.

      NOES

      Abse, Leo

      Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood

      Brown, Ronald (Hackney S)

      Allaun, Frank

      Bennett, Andrew(Stockport N)

      Buchan, Norman

      Anderson, Donald

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Buchanan, Richard

      Archer, Peter

      Bishop, E. S.

      Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green)

      Armstrong, Ernest

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE)

      Ashley, Jack

      Boardman, H.

      Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)

      Ashton, Joe

      Booth, Albert

      Campbell, Ian

      Atkins, Ronald (Preston N)

      Boothroyd, Miss Betty

      Canavan, Dennis

      Atkinson, Norman

      Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur

      Cant, R. B.

      Bagier, Gordon A. T.

      Boyden, James (Bish Auck)

      Carmichael, Neil

      Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

      Bradley, Tom

      Carter, Ray

      Barnett, Rt Hon Joel

      Bray, Dr Jeremy

      Carter-Jones, Lewis

      Bates, Alf

      Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

      Cartwright, John

      Bean, R. E.

      Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)

      Castle, Rt Hon Barbara

      416

      417

      Clemitson, Ivor

      Huckfield, Les

      Parker, John

      Cocks, Michael (Bristol S)

      Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey)

      Parry, Robert

      Cohen, Stanley

      Hughes, Mark (Durham)

      Pavitt, Laurie

      Coleman, Donald

      Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N)

      Pendry, Tom

      Colquhoun, Mrs Maureen

      Hughes, Roy (Newport)

      Perry, Ernest

      Conlan, Bernard

      Hunter, Adam

      Phipps, Dr Colin

      Cook, Robin F. (Edin C)

      Irvine, Rt Hon Sir A. (Edge Hill)

      Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

      Corbett, Robin

      Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford)

      Prescott, John

      Cox, Thomas (Tooting)

      Jackson, Colin (Brighouse)

      Price C. (Lewisham W)

      Craigen, J. M. (Maryhill)

      Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln)

      Price, William (Rugby)

      Crawford, Douglas

      Janner, Greville

      Radice, Giles

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

      Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S)

      Cronin, John

      Jeger, Mrs Lena

      Reid, George

      Cryer, Bob

      Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

      Richardson, Miss Jo

      Cunningham, G. (Islington S)

      John, Brynmor

      Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

      Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh)

      Johnson, James (Hull West)

      Roberts, Gwllym (Cannock)

      Dalyell, Tam

      Johnson, Walter (Derby S)

      Robertson, John (Palsley)

      Davidson, Arthur

      Jones, Alec (Rhondda)

      Roderick, Caerwyn

      Davies, Bryan (Enfield N)

      Jones, Barry (East Flint)

      Rodgers, George (Chorley)

      Davies, Denzil (Llanelli)

      Jones, Dan (Burnley)

      Rodgers, William (Stockton)

      Davies, Ifor (Gower)

      Kaufman, Gerald

      Rooker, J. W.

      Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)

      Kelley, Richard

      Roper, John

      Deakins, Eric

      Kerr, Russell

      Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilm'nock)

      Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

      Kilroy-Silk, Robert

      Rowlands, Ted

      de Freitas, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

      Kinnock, Neil

      Sandelson, Neville

      Dell, Rt Hon Edmund

      Lambie, David

      Sedgemore, Brian

      Dempsey, James

      Lamborn, Harry

      Selby, Harry

      Doig, Peter

      Lamond, James

      Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South)

      Dormand, J. D.

      Latham, Arthur (Paddington)

      Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne)

      Douglas-Mann, Bruce

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Shore, Rt Hon Peter

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Lee, John

      Short, Rt Hon E. (Newcastle C)

      Dunn, James A.

      Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)

      Short, Mrs Renée (Wolv NE)

      Dunnett, Jack

      Lever, Rt Hon Harold

      Silkin, Rt Hon John (Daptford)

      Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

      Lewis, Arthur (Newham N)

      Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)

      Eadie, Alex

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Sillars, James

      Edelman, Maurice

      Lipton, Marcus

      Silverman, Jullus

      Edge, Geoff

      Litterick, Tom

      Skinner, Dennis

      Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE)

      Loyden, Eddie

      Small, William

      Ellis, Tom (Wrexham)

      Luard, Evan

      Smith, John (N Lanarkshire)

      English, Michael

      Lyon, Alexander (York)

      Snape, Peter

      Evans, Ioan (Aberdare)

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)

      Spearing, Nigel

      Evans John (Newton)

      Mabon, Dr J. Dickson

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Ewing, Harry (Stirling)

      McCartney, Hugh

      Stallard, A. W.

      Ewing, Mrs Winifred (Moray)

      MacCormick, Iain

      Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)

      Faulds, Andrew

      McElhone, Frank

      Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham)

      Fernyhough, Rt Hon E.

      MacFarquhar, Roderick

      Stott, Roger

      Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

      McGuire, Michael (Ince)

      Strang, Gavin

      Fitt, Gerard (Belfast W)

      Mackenzie, Gregor

      Strauss, Rt Hon G. R.

      Flannery, Martin

      Mackintosh, John P.

      Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley

      Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeslon)

      McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)

      Swain, Thomas

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlingon)

      McNamara, Kevin

      Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

      Foot, Rt Hon Michael

      Madden, Max

      Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

      Ford, Ben

      Magee, Bryan

      Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)

      Forrester, John

      Marks, Kenneth

      Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)

      Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin)

      Marquand, David

      Thompson, George

      Freeson, Reginald

      Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

      Thorne, Stan (Preston South)

      Garrett, John (Norwich S)

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Tierney, Sydney

      Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)

      Mason, Rt Hon Roy

      Tinn, James

      George, Bruce

      Meacher, Michael

      Tomlinson, John

      Gilbert, Dr John

      Mendelson, John

      Tomney, Frank

      Ginsburg, David

      Mikardo, Ian

      Torney, Tom

      Golding, John

      Millan, Bruce

      Urwin, T. W.

      Gould, Bryan

      Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)

      Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.

      Gourlay, Harry

      Miller, Mrs Millie (Ilford N)

      Walnwright, Edwin (Dearne V)

      Graham, Ted

      Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen)

      Walden, Brian (B'ham, L'dyw'd)

      Grant, John (Islington C)

      Molloy, William

      Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

      Grocott, Bruce

      Moonman, Eric

      Walker, Terry (Kingswood)

      Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

      Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

      Ward, Michael

      Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)

      Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

      Watkins, David

      Hamling, William

      Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

      Watkinson, John

      Hardy, Peter

      Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King

      Watt, Hamish

      Harper, Joseph

      Newens, Stanley

      Weetch, Ken

      Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

      Noble, Mike

      Weitzman, David

      Hart, Rt Hon Judith

      Wellbeloved, James

      Hatton, Frank

      Ogden, Eric

      Welsh, Andrew

      Hayman, Mrs Helene

      O'Halloran, Michael

      White, Frank R. (Bury)

      Healey, Rt Hon Denis

      Orbach, Maurice

      White, James (Pollok)

      Heffer, Eric S.

      Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

      Whitlock, William

      Henderson, Douglas

      Ovenden, John

      Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

      Hooley, Frank

      Owen, Dr David

      Williams, Alan (Swansea W)

      Horam, John

      Padley, Walter

      Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)

      Howell, Denis (B'ham, Sm H)

      Palmer, Arthur

      Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford)

      Hoyle. Douglas (Nelson)

      Park, George

      Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

      418

      419

      Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

      Woodall, Alec

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)

      Woof, Robert

      Mr. John Ellis and

      Wilson, William (Coventry SE)

      Wrigglesworth, Ian

      Mr. David Stoddart

      Wise, Mrs Audrey

      Young, David (Bolton E)

      Question accordingly negatived.
      Mr. Prior: I beg to move Amendment No. 2, in page 1, line 10, leave out paragraph (b).
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this we can also take Amendment No. 4, in Clause 2, page 1, line 22, at beginning insert:
      '( ) For section 6 of the principal Act there shall be substituted the following:
      "6.—(1) It shall be an implied term (superseding any express term to the contrary) of the rules of any trade union that any union membership agreement (whether made before, on or after the passing of this Act) to which such a union is a party, shall be void to the extent that it requires membership of a trade union by any of the persons specified in subsection (2).
      (2) The persons specified in this subsection are—

      (a) persons employed by a newspaper, newspaper proprietor or broadcasting organisation for the purposes of writing or editing any part of the text, drawing any picture or taking or assisting in the taking of any photograph for any newspaper or periodical, or preparing the text of or broadcasting any wireless or television programme that is designed to inform the public as to the news or any comment on the news or on current or political affairs;

      (b) persons who are the employers of any persons mentioned in paragraph (a).

      (3) In this section

      (a) 'newspaper' and 'newspaper proprietor' bear the meanings ascribed to these terms in section 57 of the Fair Trading Act 1973; and

      (b) 'broadcasting organisation' includes the British Broadcasting Corporation, Independent Television News and the programme contractors, as defined by section 2(3) of the Independent Broadcasting Authority Act 1973"'.

      Amendment No. 6, in Clause 2, page 1, line 22, at beginning insert—
      '( ) For section 6 of the principal Act there shall be substituted the following section:—
      "6—(1) It shall be an implied term (superseding any express terms to the contrary) of the rules of any trade union that any union membership agreement (whether made before, on or after the passing of this Act) to which such a union is a party, shall be void to the extent that it requires membership of a trade union by any of the persons specified in subsection (2) below.
      (2) The persons specified in this subsection are—

      420

      (a) persons employed by a newspaper, newspaper proprietor or broadcasting organisation as editors of the written text and, in the case of broadcasting organisations, persons employed to edit the news programmes of such organisations;

      (b) persons who are the employers of any persons mentioned in paragraph (a) above.

      (3) In this section

      (a) 'newspaper' and 'newspaper proprietor' bear the meanings ascribed to these terms in section 57 of the Fair Trading Act 1973; and

      (b) 'broadcasting organisation' includes the British Broadcasting Corporation, Independent Television News and the programme contractors as defined by section 2(3) of the Independent Broadcasting Authority Act 1973"'.

      Amendment No. 9, in Clause 2, page 3, line 4, at end insert 'and after the word "whatsoever" there shall be inserted the words
      "or the dismissal is by the publisher of a newspaper or newspaper proprietor or broadcasting organisation and is of a person employed by a newspaper, newspaper proprietor or broadcasting organisation for the purposes of writing or editing any part of the text, drawing any picture or taking or assisting in the taking of any photograph for any newspaper or periodical, or preparing the text of or broadcasting any wireless or television programme that is designed to inform the public as to the news or any comment on the news or on current or political affairs,"'.
      Amendment No. 10, in Clause 2, page 3, line 9, at end insert—
      '(7) After the said paragraph 6(9) there shall be inserted the following sub-paragraph:—"(10) In this paragraph—

      (a) 'newspaper' and 'newspaper proprietor' bear the meanings ascribed to these terms in section 57 of the Fair Trading Act 1973; and

      (b) 'broadcasting organisation' includes the British Broadcasting Corporation, Independent Telcvsion News and the programme contractors, as defined by section 2(3) of the Independent Broadcasting Authority Act 1973"'

      Mr. Prior: It may be for the convenience of the House if I give a brief explanation of what the amendments seek to do.
      One of the main amendments is Amendment No. 4, which seeks to write into the original legislation rules which

      421
      would specify that the closed shop provisions do not apply to persons employed by newspapers. That is an important matter with which I shall deal in greater detail a little later. Amendment No. 6 is a Liberal amendment which, if not in identical terms, is similar to the Conservative Amendment No. 4. Amendment No. 9 is an alternative way of dealing with the closed shop problem. It seeks to make dismissal unfair in the case of an employee dismissed by a newspaper publisher. In a closed shop situation the unfair dismissal procedures would continue to apply. Those are the two groups of amendments which we shall be discussing.
      This is an important debate. I hope that Labour Members will stay to listen to it since it goes to the heart of the Bill. It has attracted an enormous amount of interest in the Press. Indeed one could form a book of the articles and letters written on the subject.
      5.45 p.m.
      A number of Labour Members have written to The Times on this subject in the last few days. The effect of much of the argument is that the Bill is neutral on the effect of the closed shop. I should like to examine whether that statement is justified. The justification appears to be that all the Bill seeks to do is to restore the position on the closed shop as it existed pre-1971. I understand that that is the position taken by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Employment. In Committee on the 1974 Act the right hon. Gentleman made it clear that he was seeking to clarify the law as it stood in 1906 and to block up the loopholes of the encroachments, as he described them, which the judges had made on the original intentions in 1906. This has been done in certain provisions of the 1974 Act. On those grounds it would not be fair to say that the Bill merely restores the situation to what it was before 1971.
      I do not see how one can remove the prohibiton of the closed shop in the 1971 Act and then say that everything is the same as it was before that time. The very fact that something which existed previously is being removed straight away implies that one is anticipating a movement towards a closed shop [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Certainly that is the view of a great many union members.
      Mr. Litterick: That is your view.
      Mr. Prior: It is my view, but not my view alone. Resolutions put forward in the preliminary agenda at the anual delegate conference of the NUJ contained a motion on the closed shop tabled by the Tees-side branch, which read as follows:
      "This annual delegate meeting instructs the NEC to mount a campaign to implement the closed shop in line with Government legislation."
      The presumption must be that it sees in this legislation a movement towards a closed shop. It is arguable that that is what many Labour Members and, indeed, others outside the House, wish.
      I have never understood why Labour Members take the view that the matter is neutral when many of them do not wish it to be neutral. They are happy to see it pushed in the direction of the closed shop. I well remember in Committee on the earlier legislation the hon. Member for Feltham and Heston (Mr. Kerr) saying "What are Conservatives getting all worked up about, because many employers prefer a closed shop situation?" It is true that there are many employers who prefer to deal with a closed shop situation. It makes a good deal of sense in a large number of industries. Some employers say that they prefer the situation that way, and sometimes take the view that Conservative Members get too worked up about the closed shop. That is the view that they take, so I hope that we shall not hear quite so much in future about the neutrality of this measure. I do not think that it is neutral. There are good reasons for suggesting that the removal of the 1971 Act has tilted the position in the other direction. What is more, it is clear that some of the rules written into the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act, especially between Sections 13 and 17, blocked up the encroachments which the Secretary of State claimed were creeping in from the 1906 position.
      Mr. Russell Kerr: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the 1971 Industrial Relations Act put very severe restrictions upon closed shops regardless of whether employers wanted them or employees wanted them? All that we are saying is that if that situation is restored, it makes the law neutral and does not rule out the possibility of closed shops.
      Mr. Prior: I accept what the hon. Gentleman said in the earlier part of his intervention. He is right about that. But if a barrier has been erected against, in this case under the 1971 Act, the closed shop and it is then removed by the very nature of things the impression is bound to be given that the Government are in favour of the closed shop operating.
      Much more important than that are the other matters which I have mentioned. I am convinced that they make the closed shop situation more readily taken advantage of than before 1971 [Interruption.] I do not know why Government supporters are getting worked up about this. Presumably that is what they wish to see, and certainly the impression gained by trade unionists, judging by the resolution picked for the annual delegate meeting of the NUJ, firmly supports that point of view.
      Having said that and having said that many employers prefer the closed shop, this is emphatically not the case when it comes to the Press. There is 100 per cent. agreement by the employers and by the editors of the Press that they do not wish to see a closed shop. I think it is true to say that the whole of the newspaper industry is united in a way that it has never been before and is very unlikely ever to be again. The industry does not want to see a closed shop.
      For the Press, the effect of a closed shop would be that those who did not wish to join a union, those who were not allowed to join a union and those who might be expelled after joining a union would be prevented from writing for any paper or periodical.
      Mr. Ivor Clemitson: The right hon. Gentleman is talking about those who work for the Press in general. I should like some clarification. Clearly, there are many more people involved in the production of newspapers than journalists and editors. There are those who work the printing presses, among whom pre-entry closed shops have been a feature for many years.
      Mr. Prior: I am talking of editors and proprietors, who are unanimous in their wish not to see a closed shop. That is abundantly clear from all the information
      424
      which right hon. and hon. Members will have had given to them.
      In discussing the effects of this proposal on the Press and on journalists, account must be taken of the fact that there are many people who wish to contribute to the Press but do not wish to join a union, that there are many who contribute to the Press who would not be allowed to join a union because it is not the major source of their income, and that if anyone should fall foul of a union under a closed shop situation he would be prevented as well from writing for any paper or periodical in that situation.
      Mr. Robin Corbett: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain the origin of what he clearly believes, that someone somewhere has said "Unless you have an NUJ card, you can have nothing published"? What is the origin of that assertion?
      Mr. Prior: I was coming to the origin in a moment, but if it will help the hon. Gentleman I shall deal with his intervention straight away. I was trying to discuss the matter in a logical manner. However, let me refer the hon. Gentleman to resolutions which were put down for last year's annual delegate meeting of the National Union of Journalists. Let me also refer him to a very important resolution which has been put down for debate this year—
      Mr. Russell Kerr: But not decided.
      Mr. Prior: It is on the preliminary agenda. The hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. Corbett) will see clearly that this is the objective of very important sections of the National Union of Journalists.
      Government supporters suggest that this will not happen and that these are only resolutions. They ask what grounds there are for saying that these resolutions will be carried. That is the view of Mr. Ken Morgan, the General Secretary of the NUJ. He has given assurances that they will not be carried. I accept his assurances and the sincerity of them. I do not doubt that Mr. Morgan believes sincerely the assurances that he has given. But I do not think that he is necessarily in a position to carry through those assurances. All the signs, from the way that

      425
      the NUJ has been moving over the past two years and from the way it is likely to move given the tone of many resolutions on the agenda for the next annual delegate meeting, are that Mr. Morgan is very likely to be repudiated. Resolution 352 is a complete repudiation of his sincerely held belief, and I do not think that Government supporters do themselves or their case justice if they say that this is not the way in which the NUJ is moving.
      Mr. Cyril Smith: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that there are a number of practical examples—one of which was the newspaper dispute last November—where newspapers have not merely threatened not to print but have actually refused to print copy unless it was submitted by a member of the NUJ? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree, further, that one of the people from whom copy was refused was the Chairman of the Parliamentary Labour Party?
      Mr. Prior: I heard rumours to that effect. I do not know whether they were confirmed.
      Naturally, when Mr. Ken Morgan makes statements and gives assurances of this kind, he believes them, and we believe that he believes them. But that is not the point at issue here. There is a strong movement, which gained a good deal of ground before last November, to support the view that that is the avowed objective and the likely outcome of the movement of the NUJ over the next few years. There are rumours at the moment that the right hon. Gentleman, judging by the account in this morning's Press, now recognises that there could be a danger and he has moved from the position of a few weeks ago in which he did not recognise that there was any danger at all. We hope that this evening he will accept our amendment.
      6.0 p.m.
      If we have a movement towards a closed shop, this will not happen in all the papers overnight. It will be a slow process. It will be a process from which there will be no turning back once it has started. I believe that legislation introduced at a later date to try to prevent this from happening would be much too late. It is better to have it on the statute book now.
      Sir David Renton: Would my right hon. Friend agree that the process which he is describing would probably run parallel with a move to the Left within the NUJ?
      Mr. Prior: Certainly. My right hon. and learned Friend is absolutely right. Later in my speech I was going to outline the way that certain members of the NUJ are seeking to move the NUJ to the Left and the methods that they are employing.
      If the Minister says that the preparation for talks is still going on and that he should not intervene, he really must not expect the House to accept that tonight and let him get away with it. Over the last few weeks that has become a recipe for doing nothing, and I greatly hope that he will not take that point of view tonight. Great efforts have already been made to get all the parties together to sort out a suitable amendment to the Bill.
      Hon. Gentlemen opposite must accept that one of the worries that a lot of people have, both in the House and outside it, is that the NUJ has not felt able to sit down round the same table with the Institute of Journalists. I would not want to be unfair to Mr. Morgan, because from all accounts he has proved himself to be a very reasonable man, but the fact is that he has not been able to get agreement amongst his colleagues for the National Union of Journalists to join in consultations with the other people concerned, including the Institute of Journalists. That is bound to arouse suspicions that some people at any rate in the NUJ wish to go for a closed shop in their own right and are not prepared to co-operate in any other effort.
      In a letter to me Mr. Frank Owens, of the Guild of Newspaper Editors, made it quite clear that not only would any round-table conference of this nature have to include all the interested parties and not only would it look at the possibility of an amendment to the Bill, but it would also have to take account of public concern regarding aspects of Press freedom other than those involving labour relations. That is important as well.
      What are the principles that need to be upheld in the present dispute that is taking place? Surely the first one is that there should be no exclusion or restriction of outside contributors. Everyone in the

      427
      House must agree that that is something which we should not allow. It certainly would not be acceptable for Members of Parliament not to be able to contribute and it would not be acceptable for sports writers who were not members of the NUJ not to be able to contribute. In view of the countless number of people who subscribe to local papers, no one could support the point of view that there should be exclusion or restriction of outside contributors.
      The second principle is that the editor must always be responsible for the content of his newspaper. It must be his responsibility, and his alone. The editor should not be subject to industrial disciplines in the way that every other member of the paper is.
      Mr. Litterick: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman, having raised the subject of editorial responsibility, will explain to the House to whom he thinks editors should owe responsibility.
      Mr. Prior: I will come to that point later. If I do not, doubtless the hon. Gentleman will remind me. I suggest, with respect, that it is probably better for the House that one should be able to make one's speech in one's own way.
      The point about the editor not being subject to the same industrial disciplines was always maintained by having associated membership for editors and certain editorial staff. The fact that this status has been taken away from editors, so that they have now had to leave the union altogether or become full members, has aroused a good many suspicions on the part of editors and editorial staff.
      The editor must consider himself a custodian of the freedom of the Press. The editor has a duty at all times to get his paper published despite national emergency or industrial dispute. Those would be the principles by which every editor of any political complexion or of none would always try to operate.
      The Minister has made a good deal over the past few weeks of the power of owners or proprietors to control editors and what is written. There has been, and there may even now be, some truth in it, although I do not think there is much truth in that accusation today. In an article in the Daily Telegraph the other
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      day Mr. Maurice Green pointed out that, although Lord Beaverbrook, whom the right hon. Gentleman will have experienced on a number of occasions, used his papers to espouse great political causes, it did not get him very far with those causes. Admittedly it did not stop him from trying but he did not succeed. I do not think that nowadays proprietors or editors of papers try those tactics.
      If it was thought necessary and desirable this is something that the Royal Commission could look at. Alternately, the question could be examined by the conference that I and others suggested should be called. This is something that could be looked at and the principles under which an editor operates could be more carefully drawn.
      Several editors have told me in the course of the last few weeks that they think that they have been too meek and mild in the past in exercising their rights and their positions. Hon. Members may laugh, but that is what these editors are saying. I believe that there is a reasonable constitution that could be laid down to protect the rights of editors where this is necessary.
      However, it is one thing to have some control from the dozen or so dailies and the 1,300 regional newspapers as well as the BBC and the IBA and another thing to consider that against the dangers of the single control that come about from the NUJ having a closed shop. That is a far more serious matter for the freedom of the Press than any control by newspaper proprietors.
      I turn now to a point which has been mentioned on many occasions over the last few weeks—the general problem of industrial relations in the newspaper industry. A number of journalists and members of the NUJ have put their views forcibly to me on this subject. They feel that industrial relations within the newspaper industry have been pretty bad and that the owners and management have in some instances been extremely weak in dealing with certain sections of it, including some of the printing unions. That has built up resentment among journalists because they feel that they have always suffered through bad wages, and so on.
      The whole problem of industrial relations within the newspaper industry, which goes wider than the NUJ and

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      includes the printing unions, has not been handled well in the past. It has been the subject of many inquiries. The result has been to build up resentment among journalists against the treatment that they have received.
      Mr. Russell Kerr: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that some newspaper employers have been deliberately nonresistant to wage claims to make the pace too hot for their rivals?
      Mr. Prior: I understand that just after the war it was so easy to sell advertising space that managements would go to almost any lengths to get their newspapers published on time. They would give almost anything away to make certain that the papers came out. The industry is liable to blackmail, because nothing is as dead as yesterday's newspaper. Sometimes I am glad that that is so. [AN HON. MEMBER: "Even today's?"] Even today's, yes. I am not by any means pretending that the industry has been well managed over the years. That has undoubtedly contributed to some of the problems to which journalists, at any rate, feel they have been victim.
      We now have added fears about future employment in the industry. Looking back over the years and recalling the newspapers which have gone out of circulation but which we would certainly have wished to keep in circulation, it is absolutely paramount that there should be better industrial relations. That means a good deal more information being supplied to all sections of the industry, whether on the printing or the journalists' side, so that they know precisely what the future holds.
      There is no doubt that the problems of the industry and of the journalists have become the vehicle by which some militants—[An HON. MEMBERH "Oh, God!"] The hon. Gentleman who said "Oh, God!" had better listen, because this is what is happening. Some militants and extremists, who are interested only in the political ambitions and changes which they might bring about through the newspaper industry, have used, and are using, the work that they do for the union for their own ends. They work well for the union, but they have looked on this particular small, democratic union as a means of getting control and, through that control, exercising their views on the Press.
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      There is a good deal of documented evidence to support that view. Therefore, that is an additional danger against which we must safeguard.
      6.15 p.m.
      I have tried to show that there is proper and reasonable concern about the freedom of the Press and that a closed shop should not be permitted in the newspaper industry. I have not tried to do that without understanding the problems of the journalists' profession. The freedom of the Press goes much wider than just the NUJ.
      Mr. Litterick: I understood, rightly or wrongly—I wish to be corrected if I am wrong—that the amendment was not about preventing a closed shop but about something else. Will the right hon. Gentleman please inform the House whether that is right?
      Mr. Prior: I will with pleasure inform the House. The two important amendments are Nos. 4 and 9. Amendment No. 4 deals with the rules and specifically excludes certain people from a closed shop in the Press. Amendment No. 9 deals with unfair dismissal, and the hon. Gentleman will see that that again excludes newspaper editors and other people who work for newspapers. We are seeking to exclude this industry from the operation of the closed shop.
      I have tried to deal with this matter in a sympathetic way. I believe that great issues are involved. The position cannot be left as it is. This problem will not go away, but will get greater as time goes on.
      Why does not the Secretary of State heed the concern of editors? They are men of widely differing views but absolutely united on this point. Why does he not recognise that there is considerable concern on the Government back benches on this point? Why does he not share the concern of many distinguished people outside this House who have written to editors on this subject? Are they all wrong? Is he saying that there is no cause for alarm? Does he not recognise that this is a matter with which Parliament above all else, should deal? It is not enough to say that the industry will sort things out for itself, because it cannot sort them out. Parliament should not leave this matter to be sorted out.

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      The Labour Party pamphlet. "The People and the Media" states:
      "The freedom of the Press is not the private property of the newspaper owners"—
      Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
      Mr. Prior: I am glad that the hon. Gentlemen opposite agree. I have been saying this. It goes on:
      "nor of their editors and journalists; it ought to belong to the public."
      [An HON. MEMBER: "Quite right."] Absolutely right. It adds:
      "It is an integral part of the public's freedom of expression, and the public has a right to secure that freedom."
      Those are first-class sentiments. Judging by the cheers they have aroused from the Secretary of State and his hon. Friends, the Government have no other course but to accept our amendment and to restore to the House the job which it should always do, and which is essential in a democracy—the protection of the freedom of the Press.
      Mr. Cyril Smith: There is a difference between the Liberal Amendment No. 6 and the Conservative amendment which the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) has just moved. I hope that the Minister will agree that there is a major difference, in so far as we have tried to narrow the field of exclusion so that the Government may find our amendment more acceptable. My task in drafting the amendment was to produce wording that the Government might be able to accept, because I suspected that the breadth of Amendment No. 2 might not be acceptable to them.
      Over the past few months the heat of the debate on the closed shop, the issue of people being excluded and so on, has been turned on the Press. I do not think that the issues are so clear-cut as has been suggested. Many other classes of employee are concerned about the effect of the closed shop on their professionalism, but they do not have the influence or power of the Press to call to their aid, which the editors have deployed over the past few months. It would be wrong not to take into account that many other people consider themselves to be affected in the same way as editors from a professional point of view.
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      None the less, I said in Committee, and repeat now, that I have always taken the view—looking at me, hon. Members may not be surprised to hear this—that half a loaf is better than none. If the amendment can ensure that editors are not included in a closed shop, with all the dangers that that may have—I put it no higher, because I do not think that it is any higher—in terms of freedom of the Press, so be it. The Bill will be better for it.
      But whilst I entirely accept that the Press is a free Press, as I also said in Committee, and have written in certain articles since, which have been published in the only free newspaper in the country, the Liberal News—[Interruption.] Yes, it has instructions to close if it does not make a profit soon. As I have said, while we may have a free Press, we certainly do not have a fair Press. Anyone who tries to defend the Press on the basis that it is manifestly fair, and who confuses fairness with freedom, makes a grave error of judgment. For example, does anybody imagine that if the Editor of the Daily Telegraph were to praise the Secretary of State for Industry he would retain his job for long? Would anybody honestly say that the great Beaverbrook Press is fair? It produces the most biased newspaper I have ever read. Certainly, on many occasions I would gladly subscribe to the view that the Editor of the Sunday Express should be strangled. Let no one try to convince me that the British Press at present is fair. It is grossly unfair, particularly to minorities.
      Having said that, I will say, to be fair to editors, that I have more faith in them than I have in the owners. Our amendment deals with the exclusion from closed shops of editors as opposed to owners, which I think is a fair line to argue. I would not spring to the defence of the owners of newspapers, but there are still men of great principle among the editors of this country. I have more experience of the provincial newspapers than national newspapers. Many editors are men of high principle, prepared to give fair expression to the views of minorities and to ensure that, as opposed to editorial comment, they at any rate allow minorities to be reported in a fair and proper manner. In so far as that relates to editors, I am prepared

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      to come to their aid in supporting their claims in this matter.
      My view is that monopoly power in any field is to be deplored wherever it comes from, whether it is in the hands of the owners or of a trade union. It is a fair argument that, whilst owners have a monopoly power, at least that power is spread among a number of them, whereas if it were to be concentrated in the hands of unions the odds are that the monopoly would be concentrated in the hands of one union. That is one of the strongest arguments in support of the amendments. Whether it is in the hands of a union or owners, monopoly power is wrong. The fact that there is no law to prevent one monopoly power—that of the owners—is no excuse for failing to introduce and implement a law which prevents the use or abuse of monopoly power by the other.
      Sir Raymond Gower: The hon. Gentleman's amendment will not solve the problem, because, as I understand it, it will not permit the editors, for instance, to continue in their own separate trade union if they so desire, but will merely ensure that if they wish individually to become members of the larger NUJ they shall have protection. Can the hon. Gentleman explain how the amendment goes as far as his speech?
      Mr. Smith: The last group of amendments that the House debated was more applicable to the argument about a man's right to belong to the union of his choice. If I may say so to the hon. Gentleman without being rude, the House disposed of that argument when we considered the amendment dealing with the exclusion and expulsion of a person in a closed shop situation.
      Hon. Members will perhaps be surprised to know that I am not particularly keen on bigness. Perhaps they are not, either. I said in Committee that I saw great dangers, including the erosion of our society, in the constant drawing together of all sorts of things, whether in industry, the trade union movement or anywhere else. The constant concentration of power in the hands of a few, the constant growth of bigness, is bad for society as a whole. I am equally sure that it would not be a good thing for the Press.
      Mr. Corbett: What about the Common Market?
      Mr. Smith: The hon. Member may be interested to know that I have not been a Member of this House when a vote has been taken on the Common Market, and he can rest assured that I have written for next Tuesday's edition of the newspaper to which I have referred a full article supporting the referendum on the Common Market. I have not yet declared myself on the Common Market as a Member of this House, so the hon. Gentleman must wait and see. It is something to which he can look forward with eager anticipation.
      The danger that the NUJ could exercise monopoly power in relation to editorial decisions is very serious. That is why I believe the House has a duty to legislate. It is no part of my case to argue the attitude of the NUJ. There is quite indisputable evidence that a small section—to be frank, I doubt whether it is more than 10 per cent.—of the executive of the NUJ has got into the hands of the Left wing. I am talking not about genuine, honest, democratic Socialists but about anarchists and totalitarian Socialists. I could name the members of the NUJ executive who are well known for their extreme views, but I accept entirely that they are very much in the minority.
      There are clear signs that over the last three or four years there has been an upsurge of Left-wing—and, I stress, genuine Left-wing—influence within the NUJ. Whether or not one argues, that it was by accident or design, the fact is that the annual conference of the NUJ passed a resolution in favour of the nationalisation of the Press. It may well be that it has proved to be an albatross round its neck. It may well be that the general secretary of the union wishes that the resolution had never been passed. The fact is that it was paced, and one cannot overlook trends of that kind.
      There have been attacks on the secretary of the union, whom I met for the first time last week. I was greatly impressed by his fairness. I confess that his fairness shaped and influenced my attitude to this matter considerably. What worries us is not him but what happens if he goes. Certainly there are pressures within the union to discipline him for the

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      attitude has has adopted towards the Bill and towards attempts at conciliation which have gone on behind the chair.
      Certain of the newspaper proprietors are not entirely free from criticism for the fact that a conference of all interested parties has not been held. Certain newspaper proprietors have made it extremely difficult even in the last seven days, for a conference of all interested parties to be called. I know of one proprietor who told the leader of my party that he would not attend such a conference unless the NUJ conceded this, that and the other before the conference was held.
      A conference of conciliation cannot be held on the basis of one of the parties demanding concessions before the conference has even been called.
      I found the NUJ extremely willing to attend a conference of all interested parties, including the Institute of Journalists, on this matter. My information is that the problem of calling a conference, certainly in the last seven days, lays at the door of at least one newspaper proprietor rather than at the door of the NUJ. It is a disgrace that one proprietor took up the attitude he did.
      The pity is that this stage of this Bill is being taken before such a conference could have been called and held. Many of us could, and indeed would, have had our fears allayed if that conference could have been held and agreement could have been reached between the proprietors and the NUJ. What worries us is that we are being asked to pass a Bill before that conference has been held and to take on trust that the result of such a conference would be successful and in accordance with the wishes of the House.
      Although I accept that my personal appeal might be of little help, I would still appeal for all parties to this dispute—perhaps that is too strong a word—or heated discussion to get round the table, whatever happens to this Bill tonight, because every Member, whatever his politics or his party, is genuinely concerned to preserve the freedom and liberty of the Press, and anything that the proprietors and the unions can do between themselves towards that end should be encouraged. It would be much better if this House were to legislate against the possibility of a monopoly, of a closed
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      shop, of the Press being in the hands of one union.
      However, since I believe that the amendments will be defeated—I understand that at least one of the minor parties in the House supports the Government on this matter, which is sufficient to ensure that the amendments are defeated—I hope that the parties will be able to get round the table. That would be in the best interests of the NUJ. The argument will continue tomorrow after we have dealt with this Bill.
      I have said before that the Liberal Party does not like and has grave suspicions of a closed shop situation, not merely in the Press but in any other area. However, we accept that we have to be practical politicians. Closed shops exist. We accept that in many instances and in many occupations they exist with the blessing of the unions and the employers, and therefore we must make the best of it. We need to draw limits round the closed shop. One of those limits, in my view and in the view of my colleagues, should be to exclude editors from the closed shop situation.
      I hope that the Minister will respond positively to the amendments and that, if he will not accept the Liberal amendment, he will continue to try to ensure that the liberty of the Press is maintained. I trust that he will give the House the assurance, which we understand from the national Press today he is willing to give, that if as a consequence of the Bill it is found that the liberty of the Press has been interfered with, he will not hesitate to introduce further legislation.
      The Minister of State, Department of Employment (Mr. Albert Booth): It might be of some help to the House, Mr. Speaker, if I intervene at this stage to state a view upon the effect of the amendments we are discussing in the knowledge that my right hon. Friend will be seeking to catch your eye later in the debate to deal with many of the issues which I know are concerning hon. Members.
      Before I turn to the effect of the amendments, may I respond to two points raised by the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior), who continues to take the view he took in Committee and suggests that those who support the Bill are not

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      entitled to claim that it is a measure which is essentially neutral on the question of the closed shop.
      The Government are convinced that the correct position for our industrial relations law on the issue of the closed shop is that that law should in no way provide anyone with an inducement to form a closed shop, nor should it provide any penalties or deterrent for those who wish to seek a closed shoo. That is what we mean by neutrality. We do not regard neutrality as a matter of erecting or taking down barriers. We recognise that legislative attempts in recent years to erect barriers to certain developments which come about by free negotiation in industry have caused a lot more trouble and done far more harm than good. On the basis of the record in recent years, they cannot be said to have done much to improve industrial relations.
      The right hon. Gentleman said that there was unanimity among editors and newspaper proprietors who do not wish to see closed shop agreements in newspaper offices. If that is the case, no closed shop union membership agreements will be formed under the provisions of the Bill because the definition of a union membership agreement is such that it must involve the agreement of the employer or proprietor. If it does not, it cannot be a union membership agreement for the purposes of the Bill.
      Amendments Nos. 9 and 10 have the effect of giving to anyone employed in the preparation of news and comment for Press or broadcasting a right to claim statutory unfair dismissal compensation if he or she is dismissed for a breach of a union membership agreement. That is precisely the effect. It is not limited to editors; it goes right across the preparation of news, comment and broadcasting. It must be recognised that this would not stop a closed shop. The amendments would enable a closed shop agreement to be made and would require broadcasting companies and newspaper proprietors to pay compensation in certain circumstances.
      Amendments Nos. 9 and 10 would operate only in circumstances where a journalist or broadcaster was dismissed. The view we have consistently taken is that this is not the way to deal with the problem. The way to deal with it is to ensure that our legislation on the subject
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      of the union membership agreement for the purposes of unfair dismissal is sufficiently flexible and operates in such a way as to reduce to the minimum the possibility of people being dismissed. The Government's amendments, tabled in Committee to ensure that flexible union agreements can be made, have ensured that a union membership agreement can be made in a newspaper office which would exclude editors altogether. They have ensured that agreement can be made which could excludes grades of people other than editors. An agreement could be made which could exclude members of certain unions.
      6.45 p.m.
      The Government's amendments allow a membership agreement to be valid even if its provisions are not operated so as to dismiss someone who is outwith an agreement. We did not do this because we were seeking to placate those who have raised such a hue and cry about the freedom of the Press in a manner which is not relevant to the provisions of the Bill. We did it because our knowledge, experience and discussions with those who operate closed shops—and it has to be borne in mind that they are a minority of trade unionists and employers—have convinced us that this is the only way in which closed shops will operate, provided that the law does not interfere and provided that the law does not attempt to set up barriers, create penalties or offer inducements to people to operate closed shops.
      In reaching a closed shop agreement, people are in practice prepared to exempt certain groups and categories and even certain individuals. We want our legislation to reflect that. To that extent the Government's amendments made in Committee are of far more help to those in the media than would be Amendments Nos. 9 and 10. It has not by any means been proven that editorial freedom is threatened by the closed shop.
      No editor in this country has been sacked for a breach of a union membership agreement. No editor has been sacked because he did not obey an NUJ instruction as to how he should write his editorial. No editor has been sacked because he did not obey an NUJ instruction as to whom he should allow to contribute. There is by no means a proven case that there is a threat to editorial

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      freedom in the closed shop provisions of the Bill.
      Mr. Prior: Although, technically speaking, the Minister is correct, may I ask him whether he has had his attention drawn to what happened in the case of the Cambridge Evening News editor, who was not sacked because he had failed to keep to an NUJ agreement but who in the end was either sacked or resigned because he refused to go to an NUJ meeting? The fact is that he was put under duress by the NUJ chapel.
      Mr. Booth: I have carefully examined the case of the Cambridge editor and, in addition, the case of the Middlesbrough editor. Two complaints were laid against the Cambridge editor by members of his chapel. One related to the way in which he reported a dispute and the other related to the way in which he sought to run the newspaper during a dispute. He refused to use the appeal machinery of the NUJ to deal with the complaints made against him.
      In spite of that, the union set up the appeals machinery. It took a room in a Cambridge hotel and invited him to attend. When he did not attend, it appointed someone to act for him and it carried on with the case. It went through every stage and gave the benefit of the doubt to the editor on the first point but found he had done work over and above editorial duties in the dispute. [Interruption.] I am stating the facts because I want the House fully to understand that I have not only examined the case but I am prepared, even by the test of the only case of an editor having resigned or having been dismissed, to show that this was not related in any way to an attempt by the NUJ to deny editorial freedom. In that case, the only one that can be cited of an editor being thrown out of NUJ membership, it was as a result of work done during the course of a dispute.
      Mr. David Lane: I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's interpretation of those facts but I do not want to interrupt the course of his argument at this point. I prefer to let him finish and then revert to this case, because I do not accept what he is saying. The Minister is evading the point at issue. I shall try to develop my argument briefly but at
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      rather more length than I can do in an interruption, if I catch your eye, Mr. Speaker.
      Mr. Booth: If the point at issue here, to use the hon. Gentleman's own words, is not the question whether there is a threat to editorial freedom, I have signally failed to understand the speeches that a large number of hon. Members have made in the course of debates in the House and in Committee. I thought that that was the burden of a very large part of the argument.
      I finish on that point in this way. If the time ever comes in this country when there is a proven threat to the freedom of the Press which could be removed or even reduced by legislation, my right hon. Friend and other members of the Government would not be opposing such legislation in the House. They would be among its foremost advocates. But that would not be done by an amendment to pay compensation to everybody who was dismissed in a newspaper office. It would not, in my opinion, be legislation in any-think like the form of Amendments Nos. 9 and 10. To represent those amendments as being an attempt to defend editorial freedom is a move unworthy of those who have tabled the amendments.
      Amendments Nos. 2, 4 and 6 all operate upon the rule books of unions. Amendment No. 2 has the effect of leaving un-repealed the requirements of Section 6 of the 1974 Act, which specifies the provisions of trade union and employers' association rule books. Those legal requirements have done nothing whatsoever to improve the rule books of the unions. I can understand that the right hon. Member for Lowestoft may have been slightly reluctant to develop the effect of this amendment very much. Of course, we can appreciate that Conservative Members may be a little sensitive tonight about the regulation of rules for the election of leaders, as would be the case if we were to apply to rules of other organisations the rules which they seek to apply to unions in relation to membership.
      It is not only our view that the law cannot improve union rule books by requiring certain provisions of rules. It was the view reached by the Chief Registrar of Trade Unions and Employers' Associations. He reached that view after

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      having tried in a most thorough manner to carry out the provisions of the 1971 Act, which required an examination by him of union rules and required him to ensure that the rules of unions were in accordance with an Act of Parliament. He came to the conclusion—it is there for everyone to read in his report—that one cannot usefully by legislation make model rules for unions. In the light of the amendments now before us he came to an even more interesting conclusion. That was that no interest of public policy existed which justified statutory enforcement of rules by the requirements of an Act.
      The Donovan Commission advanced adverse criticisms of union rules which have been very substantially met—almost entirely met—by the response of the TUC. The TUC, however, in responding to Donovan's criticism, was seeking to achieve standards of union rules far higher than those contained in Section 6 of the 1974 Act. It is also significant that Donovan was able to make those criticisms—some were very valid criticisms—despite the fact that there have been requirements of union rules on the statute book for nearly 100 years. When my right hon. Friend is criticised sometimes for wanting to go back to pre-1971 in his approach, it should be remembered that those who are advocating that union rules should be governed by law made in this House are wanting to go back to 1871 and not 1971.
      Another serious defect in this suggested approach is that in the way in which this particular amendment is framed there is no penalty. There is no offence created for a failure to comply with the Section 6 which is restored, because, unlike the previous occasions on which they have tabled this amendment, the Opposition have not this time created the accompanying amendment which would require the registrar to strike off the list people who do not comply with the provisions of Section 6.
      Our basic position is that we believe that trade unions, as free and democratically organised bodies, are capable of making their own rules and controlling their own relationship with their members and that the law has no place in regulating those rules and cannot be effective. Much more has been achieved by the TUC procedures in the few years since the Croydon
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      conference than has been achieved by the 100 years of legal requirement for trade union rules.
      Turning to Amendments Nos. 6 and 4, I fully accept the point made by the hon. Member for Clitheroe as to the difference between these two amendments. It is the case that the amendment which he and his hon. Friends have tabled applies much more strictly to editors, whereas that tabled by Conservative Members—Amendment No. 4—goes much wider. Amendment No. 4 would make it a rule—
      Mr. Cyril Smith: The Minister of State ought to have referred to the hon. Member for Rochdale. I interrupt only to put the record straight.
      Mr. Booth: I apologise to the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Smith). Amendment No. 4 would make it a rule of any trade union that a union membership agreement to which the union was a party would be invalid in so far as it required anyone connected with the news media to join a union. This, I believe, is based on the false premise that a union membership agreement restricts or could have the effect of restricting freedom of comment.
      The Bill does not require the establishment of closed shops. It does not give a right to a union to form a closed shop. What it does, where a union membership agreement is formed, is to enable the management to insist upon exclusion—as it would enable a union which was a party to a membership agreement—and it enables now any union to be a party to the agreement or to be recognised or to be specified for that purpose.
      I believe that the predictions, by many who are opposing the Bill tonight, of the terrible consequences which would flow if the Bill became an Act are fanciful, speculative and hypothetical. They are based on a series of assumptions as to what might happen, any one of which is questionable but which taken together amount to a gross distortion and a slander of the motives of the overwhelming majority of trade unionists in newspaper offices up and down the country.
      The NUJ, in discussions with us, has made it completely clear that it recognises that an editor is in a special position, that

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      it values Press freedom and that, in seeking to make membership agreements, it would welcome any number of forms of agreement which recognise the special position of the editor. It has made clear that a union membership agreement which excluded the editor from a requirement to be a member of any union might well be an agreement acceptable to it, as would an agreement which enabled the editor to be a member of the union of his choice. If, however, the editor chose to be a member of the NUJ, within the union membership agreement, it would still recognise that he had a special position as an editor and that in that special position he should be protected from anything which interfered with his proper rights and duties. It would also recognise in particular that, in the event of the union being engaged in a dispute, he should not be required to join in the dispute or even to attend chapel meetings during the dispute.
      7.0 p.m.
      Mr. Ian Percival: Is it to be inferred from what the Minister has just said that the NUJ—[Interruption.] I am limiting myself to what I have heard. Hon. Members should know by now that I shall always do that. Are we to take it from what the Minister has just said that the National Union of Journalists has assured him that it will give freedom to editors not to belong to a union or to belong to a union of their choice, or, if they choose, to belong to the NUJ? If that assurance were given, many of us would regard the position rather differently.
      Mr. Booth: In the discussions that my right hon. Friend and I had with members of the executive of the NUJ, they certainly made clear those things that I have mentioned but also that they would go much further in subscribing to a broad indication of aims that they would hold mutually with editors, which would contain matters appropriate to the union membership agreement and those which I have already mentioned.
      Mr. R. C. Mitchell: Has the NUJ given any indication whether its definition of editorial freedom includes not only the editor's freedom to write what he wants to write but also the freedom to ensure that the newspaper is produced, so that others can
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      read what he has written? That is the key point.
      Mr. Booth: No, the NUJ has not given an assurance that in any declaration it makes in common with editors it will ensure that it will do its utmost, irrespective of any claims it has on salaries, wages and conditions, to see that the newspaper is produced. Frankly, I support it in that position. No union can reasonably be asked in a joint declaration with any body of people to say that, irrespective of its aims, it will always ensure that work goes on and, in this case, that the paper is produced.
      Mr. Mitchell: I can understand that the NUJ would not be willing to say that its members should actively help in producing the newspaper, but a number of smaller newspapers can be and have been produced by the editor on his own doing all the jobs. Has the NUJ given any assurance that it will not take active steps to stop the editor doing that?
      Mr. Booth: The NUJ has said on this matter that it is its policy, which it has pursued consistently, never to object to an editor who is one of its members carrying out his normal duties in a dispute. Presumably, therefore, if a paper appeared which was produced by the writing of the editor in his normal duties with such outside contributors as he normally used, that would accord with the union's assurance. I must, however, make it clear that the NUJ has given no undertaking that it will not attempt, short of that respect for the editor's position, effectively to prosecute its policies.
      Mr. Jonathan Aitken: Could I clarify for the Minister what the NUJ's position is on the matter of editors. Whatever it might have said to him, it has given a clearer indication. In January of this year, Mr. Ted Simpson, a moderate member of the NUJ executive, put forward a resolution which sought to allow editors a free choice in joining the union and a 100 per cent. closed shop. It also pledged non-interference with executives deputising for editors. That resolution was defeated by the majority of votes in the national executive. That, therefore, is the true position of the NUJ with regard to the editors.
      Mr. Booth: The NUJ position, as I understand it, is that it has consistently been cautious on the issue of people who may deputise for editors—with some justification, in the light of what has happened in one or two disputes. But that does not detract from the basic issue of the NUJ's recognition that the editor is in a special position. He is not, that is to say, in the same position as those who are in charge of administration in certain other areas, and one of the reasons for his special position relates to the freedom of the Press, which the union cherishes.
      May I make it clear on this point that grave concern has been expressed about the position of outside contributors and their rights of access to the Press? The amendment does not cover those people. On the best advice I can take, it could cover only those who are employees, and outside contributors are not normally employees. To that extent, they would not be covered by it.
      Mr. Ron Thomas: Would my right hon. Friend agree that it is legitimate for the NUJ to be concerned about the number of outside contributors who are used and about the whole question of people "ghosting" articles? Does he not agree that many of the fears which have been expressed have nothing to do with this legislation but apply to any situation in which the union has a high-density membership? I understand that the union's membership can be over 90 per cent. and in some cases 100 per cent. I do not think that these are real fears, but the fact that they exist has nothing to do with the Bill, which provides that the closed shop is neutral.
      Mr. Booth: I agree with my hon. Friend, particularly in his last point, which repeats what I have previously said. It is understandable that any union, faced with a contracting number of jobs for its membership, should weigh against other considerations the possibility of its members being put out of work. What is peculiar to the NUJ's situation is that it would be quite improper because of that consideration to say that, in order to maximise work for its members, it would have to block access to the Press to anyone else. That
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      would obviously be interference with Press freedom.
      Since Amendments Nos. 4 and 6 can work only on an implied condition of the rule book of a union, it is presumably open only to individual members to use this provision. They would have to pursue the union in a court to operate it. That is not a situation which is conducive to good labour relations in the Press but it would clearly be required, because only members of the union would have the contractual relationship with the union under its rule book.
      The distinction between the two amendments is that one covers a very wide category, including proprietors, editors, sub-editors, journalists, broadcasters, artists and photographers, whereas the other is limited to editors. It cannot be argued that the amendment which includes the broad field creates a special position of editorial freedom. It certainly would not deal with the problem of blacking in a dispute.
      Mr. Prior: It might help my hon. Friends and myself if the Minister answered two questions. I do not see that the point he has just made about outside contributors is valid. After all, if one is not a member of the union one will presumably be free to go on contributing. There would be no question of involving the union or its rules.
      The other point, which was raised by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Southport (Mr. Percival) and my hon. Friend the Member for Thanet, East (Mr. Aitken), was simply this. It may be that the NUJ at the moment has given certain assurances but that at the next annual delegate meeting those assurances will be overturned. What we are seeking to do is write into the Bill some form of words which will protect the freedom of the Press against the annual delegate meeting overturning what I accept is the sincerity of Mr. Ken Morgan and the present executive of the NUJ not to allow that to happen.
      Mr. Booth: I shall deal with those points in reverse order. Irrespective of what the NUJ decides at this year's, next year's or the following year's annual delegate conference, those decisions will not alter one whit a union membership agreement already in existence. The union

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      membership agreement will be altered only when the parties to the agreement come to alter it. The NUJ can pass as many resolutions as its members think fit without altering the basic proposition of the amendments before us.
      We are concerned in the first of the amendments with the right of people to obtain compensation under the unfair dismissal statutory provisions. In the second amendment we are concerned with whether an implied provision of a trade union's rules would make invalid any union membership agreement to which the union subscribed in that it required people working in the Press to become members of a union. It must be the case that such a provision could apply only to the members of the union. That is the only way anyone could claim that the membership agreement was invalidated. That would be by reference to the provisions in the rules if the union membership agreement were made between a proprietor and a union or a group of unions. If it went so wide as to preclude so many people from being members of unions, it could not be held to enshrine a special position for editors.
      Another interesting fact about the amendment is that it operates only upon the rules of unions and not upon the rules of employers' associations. To that extent it is different from many of the other rule provisions which we have embodied in our legislation. If the amendment were carried, an employer could go ahead and make a union membership agreement and nothing in the rules of the employers' association would make that wrong. No member of the association could bring an action against him and take him to court. But if a union were involved it would be a very different situation.
      I do not ask the House on that basis alone to reject the amendments. However, I ask the House to take seriously the fact that both amendments impinge on rules and principles. Amendment No. 2 is a clear breach of ILO Convention No. 87, Article 3 of which states:
      "workers' and employers' organisations shall have the right to draw up their constitution and rules, to elect their representatives in full freedom, to organise their administration and activities and to formulate their programmes. The public authorities shall refrain from any
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      interference which would restrict this right, or impede the lawful exercise thereof."
      This country has subscribed to that convention. In this Parliament we do not take lightly a decision to subscribe to an ILO Convention.
      Article 8 of the convention states:
      "The law of the land shall not be such as to impair, nor shall it be applied so as to impair, the guarantees provided in this Convention."
      What those who have tabled the amendments have done, albeit unwittingly, is to put us into the position of breaching a convention that was laid down internationally to protect the basic freedom of people to organise. On that basis, I hope that before the debate concludes they will withdraw the amendments.
      Mr. Lane: I shall not follow the last red herring of the Minister of State. I wish briefly to support the amendments. The case for them has been well presented already, and there is no need for me to add much general argument to what has been said this evening and on earlier occasions by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) and by others.
      7.15 p.m.
      At present democracy in Britain is having to go through a period of great strain. That is all the more reason for the House to ensure that the freedom of the media, and particularly the freedom of the Press, which is crucial to the foundation of our democratic system, should be reinforced rather than weakened. I am not satisfied that the necessary safeguards exist with the Bill in its present form, despite the amendments that the Government introduced earlier and despite the assurances that the Minister of State has mentioned this evening.
      On looking back at what has been said, and especially in Committee, I cannot accept the Government's protestations about their neutral attitude. I do not see how any normal member of the public who is concerned, as we all are, about Press freedom could follow the sequence of events in legislation in the past few years leading up to this Bill and come to the conclusion that the Government are being neutral. He would have to conclude that they are opening the

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      door more widely to closed shop agreements. That is a door through which the present influential militants in the NUJ will be only too ready to walk.
      All of us, in our constituencies and here, are in regular contact with journalists. We have great respect for them. I hope that it is a mutual respect. The majority of journalists are men of reason and moderation. We are bound to be uneasy—this point has already been made by the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Smith)—with the evidence of recent disturbing trends in the union among leading members of the executive. As the hon. Member for Rochdale put it, the Government are asking the House to take too much on trust. That must be the position if they are advising us to reject any further amendment of the Bill. I support the renewed suggestion of a conference. My right hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft also mentioned the Royal Commission which is now sitting. It would have been better to hold the position and to give the benefit of the doubt to Press freedom by accepting an amendment of the kind for which we are pressing. That would enable the Royal Commission to consider the whole problem of industrial relations in the newspaper industry.
      I am disappointed with the attitude that the Secretary of State has taken all through this controversy. I believe that in 1965 he was considerably involved in monopolies and mergers legislation. At that time he was concerned, rightly, about the danger of proprietorial monopoly. Yet today, when there is clear evidence of a potential journalistic monopoly, he chooses to turn a blind eye. It is another regrettable example of the right hon. Gentleman's double standards. I hope that he has read in the past few weeks not only the useful article by the hon. Member for Leyton (Mr. Magee) but the letter in The Times today from Lord Goodman, from which I shall quote two passages. Towards the beginning of his letter Lord Goodman wrote:
      "One of the tragedies of the present controversy is that those proposing this ominous piece of legislation seem not to understand the real issues involved, or why such a vast and disparate group of other human beings are clamouring that it should not pass".
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      A little later in his letter Lord Goodman is more specific. He writes:
      "And the other argument that the journalists will operate their newly won power with liberality has to be examined in the light of current manifestations. At a recent meeting between journalists and newspaper publishers, the demand was made—under a threat of blacking the publication—that a particular part-time journalist, who had written for many years on a specialised topic with, I am told, great skill and knowledge, should be expelled from his job because he was not a member of the union. When it was pointed out that he had absolutely no objection to joining the union, the rejoinder was that he did not do enough journalism to qualify for entry. In short, here was a man who could not write because he was not a member of the union and could not join the union because he did not sufficiently infringe the monopoly."
      The other example that I shall quote as a reason for our anxiety is an episode bearing on editorial freedom. It concerns the experience of a former editor of the daily newspaper in my constituency. The fact that the events happened in my constituency has no special relevance. They could have happened anywhere in the country. What is disturbing is that they happened at all. The events having happened once, there is no certainty, unless we can write in further safeguards, that they will not happen again.
      I have had a long correspondence with the Minister of State, and I am grateful for the trouble he has taken in answering letters on this matter in the light of the remarks that he made in Committee, which in essence he has repeated today. But I am left dissatisfied. I think that he is evading the main issue. He may be correct within terminological limits but he is not facing the issue which was raised by the events in my constituency 18 months ago. There was a dispute in which the newspaper was concerned in October 1973, and early in 1974 the then editor was expelled from the NUJ. He subsequently moved to another post in the newspaper world. The main allegation against him was that he had exceeded his normal duties. Surely the House will accept that the normal professional duty of an editor is to give his readers the best possible newspaper every day or every week. That is the point which I think was in the mind of the hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Mitchell), who I am sorry, is out of the Chamber at the moment. The duty of

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      an editor to give his readers the best possible newspaper seems to me to be the definition which is really consistent with the concept of the freedom of the Press.
      In the course of our correspondence, the Minister of State replied:
      "What constitutes normal professional duties can only be determined in the light of the facts of a particular situation."
      It is in those words that I think the Minister of State is evading the point. He has made light of this episode, and it is a very unhappy episode with its implications for the future.
      The Minister of State argues that no threat to the freedom of the Press would exist unless all proprietors made closed shop agreements and all such agreements included editors and others. I do not accept that argument. If something of this kind happens in only one case—and we have no guarantee that it will not happen in other cases—the freedom of the Press is diminished.
      Mr. Corbett: Would the hon. Gentleman explain why the former editor to whom he referred did not avail himself of the rules of his union to which the Minister of State has referred and which the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) has described as a democratic union, and take this matter to the appeals tribunal which is made up of elected representatives, where he could have stated his case and obtained a fair hearing? Why did he not choose this freedom which is available to him?
      Mr. Lane: I have the details of the whole saga, but other Members wish to speak. The short answer is that he did not do so because he believed that, if he had, he would have implicitly accepted the stand which the union was taking and which he maintained exceeded the union's rights. That was a perfectly fair attitude to adopt.
      I find the Government's general attitude—and I have mentioned some specific aspects of it—wholly unconvincing. They argue that if trouble develops it can be dealt with later on. That is a highly irresponsible attitude for a Government to take, particularly at a time like this. They resemble deaf and inelegant ostriches.
      My right hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft has already quoted from the
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      Labour Party pamphlet "The People and the Media":
      "The freedom of the Press belongs to the people."
      It is a sad and shameful day when a Labour Government ask the House to pass unamended a Bill which represents in its implications such a clear potential threat to that freedom, and to resist the reasonable amendments which we have tabled. The risks of passing the Bill unamended have been well illustrated during the debates. They are risks which no Government truly concerned with the public interest should allow to be run. They are risks which this House, by accepting these amendments, would decisively avert.
      Mr. Max Madden: As a member of the National Union of Journalists of some 16 years' standing, I have awaited this debate with eagerness. I, like many other Members, have been fascinated by the orchestrated campaign waged by the opponents of this Bill prior to today's debate. They have sought to persuade us of three things—that the Bill will create closed shops, that the Naional Union of Journalists will force editors into membership, and that the union will begin dictating editorial policy and will exercise sweeping censorship.
      The National Union of Journalists' policy has been traditionally to seek to establish post-entry 100 per cent. houses, where any newcomer to a newspaper office is expected not necessarily already to be a member of the union but to be prepared to join the union on appointment. On introducing that organisation the National Union of Journalists has normally sought to recruit voluntarily any non-member working in a newspaper office, but it has not placed pressure on or taken action against any journalist already in the offices if that journalist refuses to join.
      The position of the National Union of Journalists is quite clear. It welcomes editors into its membership, but it is not determined to force him to join. That is clearly the policy of the National Union of Journalists. This was underlined recently by Ken Morgan, the General Secretary of the NUJ, in a public statement when he said:
      "That is the tolerance in 100 per cent. houses, we could only reasonably extend to editors and those above them—editors-in-chief

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      and editorial directors. It would be quite unreasonable and unrealistic of anyone to expect the tolerance to be shown in 100 per cent. houses to editors' subordinates. A trade union is not in business to allow the build up of a cadre of potential strike-breakers."
      I believe that is a reasonable position for any union to take, and it is an exceptionally reasonable attitude for a union like the NUJ to adopt.
      In the campaign which has been waged assiduously against this Bill there has been no evidence, or logic in the theory, that once journalists achieve 100 per cent. membership Press freedom flies out of the window. It has not happened before. The closed shop is not a new phenomenon in the newspaper industry. I worked in the old Odhams "empire" which subsequently became the IPC, where a closed shop was a practice which had been honoured and found to be most effective over 30 years. There are newspapers in Fleet Street today with closed shops. In the IPC, the Daily Express and other large national newspapers there are closed shops which have worked effectively and with good will, and none of the prognostications made by the opponents of this Bill have been borne out.
      We are faced with an objection not from newspaper proprietors but from some sections of the NUJ. That has been made abundantly clear in the debate. I may say in passing that the quality of the campaign waged outside has not been reflected in the campaign which has been waged in this building, particularly by the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior), who put up a most lack-lustre performance in defence of the arguments which have been waged outside.
      Why has this case been argued only in relation to journalists in the newspaper industry? Why has it not been argued in connection with the production workers in the industry whose ability to disrupt the industry is much more effective and widespread than those in editorial offices? There is not a word about these constraints or restraints being put on the manual production workers or craftsmen within the industry.
      Unfortunately, a number of different events and circumstances have been cleverly woven into a sinister plot by some astute editors. They have sought, by all the powerful and influential means
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      at their disposal, to convince the country that this Bill threatens to undermine Press freedom and the independence of every editor throughout Britain. I have found it most depressing that, while they are making all these assertions and demands for Press freedom, they have been singularly reluctant to open their columns to the people who take a different view from them. The whole of this argument within the Press and the media generally has been exceptionally lopsided and one-sided, with one or two notable exceptions.
      Mr. Aitken: May I give a notable exception? The Editor of The Guardian has put the editors' case at greater length and more informatively than any other editor. Equally, the Editor of The Guardian has given enormous space to Mr. Ron Knowles in the letter columns. There has been an evenly and fairly divided presentation by The Guardian.
      Mr. Madden: That may be the view of the hon. Member for Thanet, East (Mr. Aitken). It is not mine.
      May we look at some of the scares which have featured in this campaign? It is argued that the abolition of associate membership of the NUJ previously open to editors and other executives and their opportunity now to enjoy full membership of the union has undermined their freedom and placed them in jeopardy. It is is the complete opposite of the truth. Associate members and full members are subject, and always have been subject, to the same rules and regulations. There has been no change by the abolition of associate membership which came about because of the pressure from editors that they should be allowed the opportunity of full membership which would give them for the first time the chance to attend branch meetings, to speak and to vote. Democracy within the NUJ has been extended to editors for the first time so that they may play a much fuller part.
      7.30 p.m.
      We are told that contributions to newspapers will be confined to NUJ members and that non-NUJ writers will be unable to submit more than two articles to a newspaper. It is not without significance that the right hon. Member for Lowestoft was unable to answer my hon.

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      Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. Corbett), who asked for the source of this information, Of course, there is no authoritative source for this scare which has sent a flurry of concern around many golf clubs and women's institutes and various other organisations, not least the House of Commons, where there are people who earn money from the newspaper industry who fear these earnings might be curtailed.
      Mr. Aitken rose—
      Mr. Madden: I am sorry. I have given way to the hon. Member once and I want to be as brief as I can. [HON. MEMBERS: "Give way."]
      Opponents of the Bill argue that the union blacked all non-NUJ copy last year during a dispute and it will do so again the second the Bill becomes law. We have said, Ken Morgan has said and many other union spokesmen have said that that sanction was temporary and was imposed for the duration of the dispute with the provincial newspaper industry. That is the policy of the NUJ.
      This approach does not represent a new industrial sanction. It was imposed by the NUJ in 1973. There was not a whimper then about Press freedom, about editors being in jeopardy or anything else. It all fitted in with the scenario that we, the gullible public, were supposed to swallow hook, line and sinker, and I am glad now that other views have come to prevail. It is interesting to note that this highly politically-motivated campaign which we have faced has been led not by the editors but by others who have axes to grind in this great argument. In the past the NUJ has shown great understanding towards editors. It has given them exemption during official industrial disputes and has allowed them to do their normal work. That remains the view of the NUJ.
      The union and its members have a great regard for, and a fine record on, Press freedom. The union has sought to condemn all those who have tried to deny Press freedom throughout the world. Its members have been ready to put their money where their mouths are. They have offered financial assistance to many colleagues who have faced attacks upon
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      their Press freedom and their freedom as journalists.
      The NUJ believes that Press freedom does not belong to newspaper proprietors, to editors, or to journalists but to the public, and I was glad that even that point has been taken on board by the right hon. Member for Lowestoft. Many journalists are desperately unhappy at the reduction in the number of newspapers in Britain. More than 30 important newspapers have died in the last 20 years. We must all be concerned that seven large companies now dominate 90 per cent. of the British Press. We must be alarmed that the business interests of those companies, which inevitably influence the opinions and policies of the newspapers, range from such things as oil to property. That must inevitably influence the opinions and views of editors who have the strongest control over newspapers.
      Those who care about Press freedom must lament, for instance, the strictures made upon the editor of Construction News in 1971. He was told in a note from his superiors that there should be no industrial relations stories printed on page 1 and he was told to take care to avoid knocking those who provided bread-and-butter advertising revenue. Those who care about Press freedom must be saddened that a national journalist who dared to write the truth about motor cars gave up in disgust when car advertisers leaned on his employer and told him either to tone down the articles or sack the journalist. It is not without complete insignificance that that paper was The Guardian. I believe that those who care about Press freedom must also be very concerned about the extent to which the British Press has to rely on advertising revenue, which totalled £375 million in 1971 and for the media as a whole was £529 million.
      Those who care about Press freedom must also care a great deal about what is going on on the Financial Times. Hon. Members may know of Mr. G. Gordon Tether, a distinguished journalist who has won much acclaim for his writing over the years and who wrote a regular column in the Financial Times under the name "Lombard". The new editor does not share the same enthusiasm for Mr. Tether as may be felt elsewhere, and during the

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      course of 1974 12 of his articles were banned by Mr. Fisher, the editor. Others, to use Mr. Tether's words, were "mangled or vandalised". The editor wrote to Mr. Tether. All those who have worked in the industry are used to memos from editors. We get them like confetti, and they set out what is the policy of the newspaper and what is not, whom to lay off and whom not to lay off, what to write and how to present it. This is common practice within the British newspaper industry at both provincial and national levels.
      Mr. Peter Rost: What is an editor for?
      Mr. Madden: If I read Mr. Fisher's note it will tell the hon. Member. He wrote to Mr. Tether saying:
      "The first point to make here is that like any other journalist on this paper you are subject to the directives of the editor, who alone decides what appears or does not appear in the Financial Times. Secondly, the Lombard column should confine itself to those subjects in which you have expertise—the general financial, economic and banking scene and, since this is a subject on which you have written for many years, the EEC problem. In order to prevent a reaction of deja vu among our readers, I do not wish you to write about the EEC problem more than once a week after specific consultation with me."
      To this directive from this distinguished editor Mr. Tether had the audacity to reply:
      "I am not going to see my rights swept aside on the manifestly absurd argument that an editor has such absolute and unquestionable power as a dictator that he can perpetrate any excesses he likes against a member of his staff even to the point of assassination of that member's professional reputation."
      That view is shared by many working journalists who cherish Press freedom most dearly. That is why so many of them are deeply interested in opening up the British Press as widely as possible so that all minority groups have access to the Press, so that all opinions may be fairly represented, so that all matters, whether they are an embarrassment to the advertisers or to those whom the publishers have an interest in not representing fairly or honestly or in not probing them or exposing them to investigative journalism, may be aired. That is why working journalists are not frightened of the implications of the Bill.
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      They welcome the opportunity, where appropriate, to introduce 100 per cent. membership. I believe that British working journalists are not as afraid of the Bill as some editors are saying they are. It goes a long way to upholding a longstanding tradition in the newspaper industry and does not give rise to the fears which many, both inside and outside the House, would have us believe it does.
      Mr. Aitken: I relish the chance to follow the speech made by the hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Maddan) because he presented a view of the National Union of Journalists and its policies which is both tendentious and inaccurate. He said that the position of the NUJ on these issues was quite clear, but he did not present that clear view.
      I should like to correct two major inaccuracies in the hon. Member's speech. He spoke eloquently about Mr. Ken Morgan's assurance that the NUJ would not put pressure on editors to join the union. He omitted to mention that that assurance was supported by only four of the 24 members of the national executive of the NUJ. The omission of that fact destroys the whole validity of the hon. Gentleman's point.
      The hon. Member's second major inaccuracy was that there was no reliable source for the statement of my right hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) that some NUJ chapels intend to limit the number of contributions from non-NUJ contributors. I shall give the source. My branch of the NUJ, of which I am proud to be a member, referred in its January circular and newsletter to two motions, The following is an extract:
      "This ADM instructs the NEC to issue the following guidelines to all branches and chapels on non-NUJ contributors:

      '(a) where a contributor is eligible to join the union, he or she shall be expected to do so should he so be requested. Wherever circumstances permit members shall refuse to handle the work of eligible non-members;

      (b) contributors ineligible by reason of earning the majority of their income from non-journalistic sources shall be able to make a specified number of contributions to publications and broadcasting channels in any period of 12 months, this number to be determined by individual chapels.'"

      In the Journalist's report of the debate it was said that on a paper such as the Daily Mirror the chapel might well

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      refuse to allow more than a couple of contributions in one year from any individuals who are not union contributors. In other words, the hon. Gentleman's point was completely fallacious. He did a great injustice to my right hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft.
      Mr. Madden: Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that many political parties hold conferences where resolutions are tabled although they are not necessarily passed? They do not necessarily reflect the majority view of the members belonging to those organisations. Can we concentrate on official policies rather than on motions which may or may not become union policy at some future date?
      Mr. Aitken: The hon. Gentleman is skating on thin ice, and he well knows it. The only indication he gave of official NUJ policy was a statement made by Mr. Morgan supported by only four out of 24 members of the national executive.
      The NUJ is dominated by the central governing body, the national executive. It is dominated by resolutions passed by its chapels. That will be true of negotiations on the closed shop. The truth is that each chapel can be a rogue elephant which is out of control. In many cases chapels which are out of control are in the hands of militant international Socialists.
      The Minister of State also produced one or two fallacious arguments. He repeated that the Bill was neutral as regards the closed shop. An exchange took place during the Committee proceedings on the Bill which gave away the Government's game. My right hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft said at one point during the fourth sitting:
      "So he was making it easier to have a closed shop."
      The hon. Member for Feltham and Heston (Mr. Kerr) said "Quite right". My hon. Friend replied:
      "It is a strange form of neutrality."—[Official Report, Standing Committee E, 16th January 1965; c. 161.]
      That is, indeed, a strange form of neutrality. I believe that the word "neutral" has been much abused.
      However, this Bill is not neutral on the issue of the closed shop. It is dangerously permissive as regards the issue of Press freedom. Many Government
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      Members wish for total permissiveness in the law on industrial relations relating to closed shops. I do not believe in permissiveness. The line must be drawn somewhere. The amendments seek to draw that line at the point where Press freedom begins to be challenged.
      7.45 p.m.
      The basic principle we speak of tonight is whether access to the Press and the air waves should be left in the hands of one monopoly union. I believe the answer is "No". That is why this Bill, which makes the creation of a closed shop in journalism so much more likely, has such dangers for Press freedom.
      The Minister of State said that all editors and managements are against closed shops and that there would be no closed shops because this was a matter for negotiations between each union, each union branch and each management. I do not accept the argument that managements and editors will successfully try to resist the creation of a closed shop.
      In his excellent letter in today's edition of The Times Lord Goodman said that there were grave dangers in the probability that unions would have to give in to the creation of the closed shop. He said that with a weak industrial position there can be no certainty of success and a high prospect of failure. Indeed, with the present economic situation in Fleet Street, with every national newspaper losing money, it is clear that managements are in a very weak position to stand firm on the question of the closed shop against such pressures as the banning of non-union copy and other unpleasant sanctions. Nothing is more perishable and unsaleable than newspapers the production of which is held up by sanctions such as blacking imposed by the NUJ or any other union.
      Mr. Corbett: Will the hon. Gentleman tell us in which national newspapers 100 per cent. closed shops do not already exist? Is he aware that closed shops exist in every national newspaper published in this city, and were in existence while the Industrial Relations Act was on the statute book?
      Mr. Aitken: In common with the hon. Member for Sowerby, the hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. Corbett) has produced the kind of inaccuracy for

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      which, if he were a reporter, he would be sacked.
      It is true that there are closed shops in one or two Fleet Street newspapers. However, there are some newspapers which do not have closed shops. The Evening Standard, for example, does not have a 100 per cent, closed shop.
      The question of outside contributors is of great importance. Many gaps in the columns of today's newspapers are filled with the work of people who are not members of the NUJ, and members of the Institute of Journalists also work on newspapers.
      Mr. Corbett: That is my point.
      Mr. Aitken: Such people will not be allowed to work. However, that is not a closed shop. If members of both the National Union of Journalists and the Institute of Journalists are allowed to work on the same newspaper that is not a closed shop. The trouble with the closed shop is that one union will be able to impose its will.
      Mr. Booth: If the hon. Gentleman will read the union membership agreement, he will see that any number of independent unions can be covered, so that there can be a union membership agreement within the terms of the Bill embracing any number of independent unions.
      Mr. Aitken: I know that is the principle. However, in practice the NUJ will not recognise the IOJ. The NUJ refuses to admit the existence of the IOJ. Therefore, the NUJ will not allow the IOJ to form part of a closed shop.
      The trouble is that the NUJ—and I make no complaint about this—is pressing for 100 per cent. closed shop in the interests of its members. However, a newspaper must take into account, above all, the interests of its readers. It is an astonishing condemnation of the present Government that they are prepared to support the interests of one monopoly union while disregarding the interests of the wider public, the readers, contributors and editors, who are hurt if there is a closed shop. The question is: who benefits? The answer is: "The NUJ". What are the interests and intentions and ambitions of the NUJ? It is not the rosy
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      picture given by the hon. Member for Sowerby.
      Much has been happening in the NUJ since 1971. Associate membership of the NUJ, which was the device which preserved the special position of editors, has been abolished. Annual delegate meetings have passed resolutions demanding nationalisation of the Press. There has been the blacking of non-union copy, cartoons and so on. That was described in the January issue of Journalist in a four-page supplement euphemistically called "Freedom of the Press" as an "extension of Press freedom". That is a staggering label to put on it.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Mr. Lane) spoke of the disciplinary action taken by the NUJ against the editors of the Cambridge News and the Middlesbrough Evening Gazette. Above all, the moderate man we all praise, Mr. Ken Morgan, has been under constant attack, and is in a precarious position as a result of feuding inside his own executive. He had only four out of 24 votes for his solemnly-given assurance not to put pressure on editors and that the blacking of NUJ copy was only a temporary measure. The militants of the NUJ are in power. They want worker control. One has only to look at the resolution of the Freelance Branch of the NUJ and at the January issue of Journalist to see how serious is the threat of militancy.
      The Government's duty is to hold the ring and not to side automatically with the union. Parliament has a public duty to stand up for the liberty of the Press. We are sent here not just to pass laws but to preserve the freedom of the Press. That is why we should stand firm and pass these amendments.
      Mr. Eric Moonman: Inevitably, on a matter so controversial as this, one expects the Opposition to have a view, and that view has been expressed by several Opposition Members. It becomes all the more important for Government supporters to tread cautiously and to be absolutely fair. With respect, it does not help to ignore fears which are expressed outside the House or to assume that people's motives are necessarily wrong.
      There are fears, and the Minister said that perhaps in the application of the Bill

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      some of those fears will be removed. That may be so, but other arguments have been put forward since the Minister spoke and it is conceivable that we might wish to look for further assurances. Some of us feel that we may need more than trust. Implicit in what the Minister said is that there should be some degree of trust between partners—the trade unions, the Government and the employers.
      It has been pointed out that no exemption is being argued for production workers. I have been in craft unions within the industry for nearly 30 years, and I know that in fact this happens. Someone who held a card in the National Graphical Association for a long time, having had promotion to a supervisory or management grade, would no longer need to be a member of that union. We have to recognise that there are certain levels of editorial work, just as there are certain levels of managerial work, which do not require the same degree of involvement in the work of the union. That is perhaps where Ministers can give us some reassurances about the whole question of exemptions within the industry.
      The issue is not just Press freedom; it is not the property of journalists and the defence of journalists. The issue is public interest and public freedom. My plea is simple. A free Press and free access to the Press are critical to a democracy, and editorial staff in the context of what has been said should be excluded from the Bill. I give five reasons for that which I offer with respect to and appreciation of my five colleagues who wrote today in The Times.
      First, the Press is a unique industry. It is an industry requiring skill and a public utility requiring free access. It is an industry which is subject to trade union and management negotiation, and it is a public service. Those who have ignored that should recognise that there is a trade union already in the industry and that negotiation occurs. Surely there is already a sufficient check on what happens between management and trade union. I believe that freedom is fragile in the modern world. Nevertheless, it is a constitutional right and not a matter for bargaining between employer and trade union, however enlightened.
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      My second reason concerns the NUJ. The General Secretary of the NUJ has sought to help, perhaps at the risk of being censured by his own members or at the annual delegate meeting. His proposal for a round-table conference is a good one. Whatever happens tonight, I hope that that round-table meeting will soon take place.
      Here is the nub of the problem. If the NUJ is to be in such a unique position, can we ignore the sanctions which are being proposed now? The Cambridge example, which was well answered by my hon. Friend the Minister, does not quite represent the fear expressed by many people outside the House. What happened in Cambridge was that the man was fired and he left his employment. There are many other ways in which anxieties are created. There is the softening-up process. At 7 o'clock this evening in one national newspaper office a meeting of the NUJ chapel was convened to discuss, among other things, a not unremarkable leader which appeared in this newspaper on Monday dealing with this very issue. That is the sort of fear I have, where no motives and no extraneous matters are involved. The leader was a fine piece of writing. The editor was right to do it, yet within a couple of days a meeting of the chapel is called to consider that editorial and to propose action. That is wrong, and those of us who believe in freedom of expression should make a much greater noise about it.
      Thirdly, there is a the Royal Commission on the Press. I do not want to delay the findings of the Royal Commission, but if it is not possible to reach a satisfactory conclusion tonight I hope that the Government will consider referring the question to the Royal Commission.
      My fourth suggestion is most important and has been referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Madden). Newspapers are diminishing in number. In 1914 there were seven London evening papers, and now the likelihood is that there will be only one by the end of the year. If we want to maintain a variety of newspapers it will mean that greater responsibility will be placed on editors. We come back to the anxiety that with a reduced number of newspapers we are probably at greater

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      risk if the editorial staff are unable to say what they want to say. It is said that editors have not always been independent. Correct. If we had the time and the debate were more wide-ranging we might consider the way in which employers have set standards of behaviour, but we have limited terms of reference.
      Fifthly, and perhaps most imporant, is the general interaction between Government and Press. I suggest that we do not take that lightly. The Press is not notably sympathetic to a Labour Government because the Press is generally weighted to the right. Yet Labour can, and must, work to improve understanding of its policies and ideas. The Labour Party does not benefit from antagonism towards the Press. If Labour gets a bad handling in one newspaper, it may not matter very much if it is in the Daily Mail or the Daily Express but we should take note if the criticism appears in the more serious-minded newspapers.
      Whatever appears in leader columns, what we should be interested in is the information and facts that appear in the Press because, in the end, they are much more important. If that were not the case, we would not have had so many Labour Governments since 1945.
      Some of the confusion which has been evident in many Opposition speeches—and those Members have only themselves to blame—arises from the fact that their arguments on this set of amendments have not been entirely clear. The amendments which they have tabled do not cover the fears which they allege are being experienced. Perhaps the amendments have been written between leaders. But if we want to give the Government Front Bench a chance to put right what appeared in our manifesto—and we cannot ignore that factor—we must support the Bill. Again, however, I appeal for a further review and a response.
      8.0 p.m.
      Mr. Hugh Fraser: The hon. Member for Basildon (Mr. Moonman) did the House a great service by encapsulating the issues on these amendments in five main points—and I thank him for helping me to shorten my speech.
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      For those who had the privilege of serving on the Committee on the Bill—and, indeed, for those who have watched the controversy developing—one central point emerges. The Press must be accorded a special position if editors and editorial staff are to be free to carry out their work. This point was clearly made by the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Smith). The key to the issue is the maintenance of a Press which is not only free but also effective.
      When we look at the Press of this country compared with the Press throughout the world, we see there has been an undoubted decline in our newspapers. A newspaper such as Le Monde is owned as to 50 or 60 per cent. by outside shareholders. Compared with newspapers such as the New York Times and some of the great German newspapers, I think it must be said that our Press poses something of a problem. This flows from a whole variety of economic and other reasons.
      The Secretary of State, as an editor in the past under Lord Beaverbrook, seems deaf to the arguments put to him by such a wide variety of distinguished men such as Lord Goodman, Mr. Hetherington of The Guardian, the Editor of The Times and the editors of other newspapers. Those gentlemen do not speak with a collective political voice, but only from the point of view that they see the freedom of the Press being endangered. For the right hon. Gentleman—a man who prizes liberty so highly—to sweep those arguments aside as matters of no importance displays an extravagant contortion of his inner thoughts.
      I hope the House will adopt the simple amendment tabled by the Liberal Party which seeks to draw a line round the editorial staff to ensure that they are free from outside pressure, from wherever it may come. The duty of Parliament is not to conduct a conference to achieve good will between one side and the other. Parliament's duty is to lay down the law so that the law cannot be abused in the way that the present law as it stands can be abused. That is the whole point of the amendments which are now being proposed.
      There is a feeling among some people that all we need to do is to set up a conference of all those concerned and to

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      come to an agreement in that way. But the duty of Parliament is not to set up conferences but to legislate—and to legislate clearly. If the Minister of State, Department of Employment, cannot see that there is any doubt in the minds of many people about the liberty of the Press being undermined, he should examine his conscience and that of his colleagues. But surely if there is a serious doubt—and that doubt has been expressed on all sides of the House—it is the Government's duty to come forward with an amendment which will safeguard the freedom of our Press and our institutions.
      Mr. Maurice Edelman: The right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Fraser) has invoked the spirit of Lord Goodman in the letter to The Times today, and I shall return to that topic in a few moments.
      The two issues in this debate are, first, the freedom of the Press and, secondly, the fact that many Conservatives are now engaged in the final kick in the fight to preserve the last relic of the Industrial Relations Act. What is being challenged is the right of the workers who work for the Press to combine together. It is a long and old struggle, and therefore it is worth continuing that struggle tonight. That is one of the central issues of this debate.
      Mr. Cyril Smith: Will the hon. Gentleman, since he alleges that this debate is the last vestige of the fight to preserve the 1971 Act, explain which section of the 1971 Act excludes editors from a closed shop situation?
      Mr. Edelman: I am concerned with the nature and tenor of the debate—and that is the way in which so far much of the debate has been conducted.
      I believe that the attack on the National Union of Journalists is also an attack on a group of workers who are seeking to combine to defend their legitimate interests, their wages and living standards. They are seeking to take issue with anybody outside who hinders them in that task or who is prepared to enjoy the fruits of their struggle without having made any contribution to that struggle. That is the fight in which NUJ members are engaged.
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      What struck me particularly about the speeches of some Conservatives was the way in which they appeared to suggest that somehow or other there should be some kind of test of eligibility in a political sense in terms not only of freedom to write but of freedom to speak. The attack on freedom of speech comes from those who have tried to invoke militancy among members of the NUJ as a disqualification from their participation in this argument and discussion. What we have seen has been a great campaign of vilification conducted against the NUJ. It is no good Conservatives on the one hand advancing the argument that some of their Press friends in the NUJ are moderates and on the other hand advancing the view that the militancy that now exists will develop into a raging plague which will undermine freedom of speech. I do not believe that that will happen. I believe that the majority of NUJ members are moderate men concerned with freedom of speech—certainly as concerned as is any Conservative Member—and that the attack on them, spearheaded, to the astonishment of many, by editors, is not only ill-founded but misdirected.
      Many Conservatives have spoken about extremism among journalists. What about the extremism among editors and proprietors in the past? The Opposition have spoken of Left-wing militancy. What about the Right-wing militancy that existed in such a flagrant form before the war? Again, Opposition Members talk about Trotskyists and Communists. What about the open Fascists who declared their support for the blackshirts in the years before the war?
      Mr. Hugh Fraser: That is precisely the point that I and others have been trying to make. We have been trying to protect editors against those forces, and that is why we are trying to amend the Bill in this way.
      Mr. Edelman: I remind the right hon. Gentleman that the editors who are spearheading the attack on the National Union of Journalists are the very men who in the past weakly and supinely acquiesced in the conditions imposed by their proprietors, and there is no reason to believe that they will behave any differently in the future. They talk about the risk of editors being sacked without compensation. In the past, when the heads of

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      editors have rolled, it is true that they have been paid out with golden handshakes, but some of them have been exiled to far places on the humiliating understanding that they would never write another line. Others have been dismissed and sent to other far places in the hope that they would never reappear and write their memoirs.
      Those are the very people who today are taking the line which, I am sure, is the line taken by the proprietors, who are lurking in the background. I do not believe for a moment that the editors are speaking merely for themselves. I am convinced that although the proprietors have been lying low their spokesmen are the editors and Lord Goodman, whose letter in The Times today I wish presently to discuss.
      Some of these editors are men who in the past have tolerated black lists. It is useless to pretend that those black lists did not exist. They existed, and they were accepted and tolerated by editors. When they talk now about security of employment, they ought to look into their own souls to see how they themselves have behaved in the past.
      Today they have the opportunity to join the National Union of Journalists, and I am sure, from what my hon. Friend the Minister of State said, that they can do so without any fear that they will be inhibited in their editorial tasks and editorial performance by any form of discipline that the NUJ will exert against them. Contrary to what Opposition Members have said, the NUJ has been quite explicit in saying that its concern in inviting the editors to join is to involve them in the general industrial safeguards which a trade union can offer. There is no intention to inhibit them in the performance of their editorial duties.
      Mr. Aitken: Surely the hon. Gentleman can see that a situation could arise in which an editor's responsibilities to his management, to his readers and to the law itself might easily conflict with his new-found responsibilities to the union which he had been compelled to join—for example, in circumstances where a branch meeting was called at edition time.
      Mr. Edelman: The hon. Gentleman ignores the fact that the NUJ has been
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      explicit. It was the hon. Gentleman who referred to the January edition of the Journalist. The NUJ has been explicit in its exclusion of editors from any form of trade union interference when they are concerned with their editorial activities. That should be affirmed tonight, because it is cardinal to this debate. Therefore, if the Opposition continue to assert that somehow, even in a closed shop situation, the NUJ would try to interfere with editors and the performance of their duties, they are going against the facts and against the declared intentions of the NUJ.
      I return to the subject of freedom of speech and Lord Goodman's letter in The Times today. As hon. Members will know, Lord Goodman has a two-column letter today under the title
      "A closed shop for journalists".
      He writes about this Bill:
      "It means that the rights and freedoms bought by the historical exertions of heroes and martyrs are dismissed with a contemptuous shrug by those too preoccupied with industrial matters to realise what they may be doing in other liberties at least as vital—and to some of us more vital."
      I do not know whether Lord Goodman is dismissing the struggle of trade unionists to maintain their standard of living and protect their legitimate interests. But at any rate it is clear that in that part of his letter he is addressing himself to such matters as freedom of speech.
      8.15 p.m.
      The letter goes on:
      "If it is unthinkable that in this country in 1975 a man should be prevented from expressing his views or his opinions or his knowledge by a small group of persons possessing no special qualification—if anyone could possess such qualifications—to operate a censorship, it is doubly unthinkable that the editor of a newspaper should be open to the pressures involved by his membership of a closed shop union and the libertarian case on this issue is faithfully presented in the pamphlet For Freedom of the Press and Broadcasting'."
      That comes strangely from Lord Goodman, who is the most notorious frightener of Fleet Street. He is the man who in his career has leaned most heavily on journalists and editors in order to impress his views upon them. To use his own expression, he has done it by seeking to impose a form of censorship against which any censorship that the NUJ could apply would seem feeble and vapid.

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      It is curious that Lord Goodman should be regarded as an authority on freedom of the speech when, as everyone knows, he has consistently exerted his authority and power on what he has regarded as appropriate occasions to inhibit editors and journalists in what they might regard as their duty.
      Lord Goodman accuses a number of my hon. Friends of hypocrisy. Because of that I feel obliged to say that if I have to assess how far that hypocrisy goes and who is responsible for it, I and those of my hon. Friends named in Lord Goodman's letter may well decide where that hypocrisy really lies.
      Mr. Hugh Fraser: Will the hon. Gentleman explain the mysterious power which Lord Goodman wields in this sinister fashion?
      Mr. Edelman: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman can explain it as well as I can.
      Mr. Hugh Fraser: The hon. Gentleman has made an accusation. I should like him to expatiate upon it.
      Mr. Edelman: The fact is that Lord Goodman in the past has leaned on editors and on journalists, no doubt with the best of intentions, to promote his point of view on given subjects. Therefore, in my view, we must make a clear distinction between the validity of trade unions carrying out their proper duties and those who simultaneously attack them for what they call their hypocrisy.
      Mr. Aitken: The hon. Gentleman has made a serious allegation against Lord Goodman. I am sure he is sincere in his view, but can he produce one hard fact to back up his allegation?
      Mr. Edelman: I am not disposed to offer illustrations. I do not think that they are appropriate—
      Mr. Hugh Fraser: Withdraw.
      Mr. Edelman: I shall certainly not withdraw what I said. I said it with knowledge of the subject. I see no reason to withdraw what I said. I said it, and I take responsibility for it—
      Mr. Hugh Fraser: Withdraw.
      Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg: Is the hon. Gentleman prepared to make that statement outside this Chamber?
      Mr. Edelman: The privilege of a Member of Parliament in representing his constituents is to speak in Parliament under the privilege of Parliament. That is why I have said what I have today, and I have said it with a full sense of responsibility.
      I regard Lord Goodman's letter to The Times as a calumny against a trade union which I represent. To charge some of my hon. Friends with hypocrisy in their attitude towards freedom of speech is to add yet another calumny.
      I am concerned that the attack on the NUJ should be exposed for what it is. It is motivated by considerations other than abstract concern for freedom of speech. The attack is motivated by a desire to undermine the power of combination in an important and significant trade union. The attack is motivated not by a purpose of defending the freedom of speech in the abstract but by the aim of trying to diminish public respect for a trade union which has always concerned itself with freedom of speech and with the rights of journalists.
      For those reasons I support the Government in resisting the amendments tonight. I support the Government because I believe that they have defended and are defending a legitimate trade union interest and, in a most fundamental sense, the freedom of speech.
      Mr. Edward Gardner (South Fylde): The speech of the hon. Member for Coventry, North-West (Mr. Edelman) has provided the House with an example of one of the most shameful abuses of parliamentary privilege. It is bad enough that a man's reputation outside the House should be subject to a personal attack of this kind, but when that attack is made without any attempt to sustain it by fact or argument one can only begin to wonder what impulse caused that attack to be made.
      This is not a campaign that is being waged on this side of the House against the National Union of Journalists. I am sorry that I did not have the privilege of serving on the Committee that considered the Bill, but I rise tonight because I feel that the public are

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      intensely concerned with what the Government are seeking to do and because for a number of years I was employed on provincial and national newspapers as a member of the National Union of Journalists. In those days—they were many years ago—one recognised that in that union, as no doubt in other unions, there were people who were or who could be described as extremists. We had to put up with their views and, if we could, compromise with their views. From what I have heard today—I am outside the trade or profession of journalism now—it seems that many of the extremists have taken over. It is their voice that we are hearing and not the voice of the moderates.
      I cannot believe that the majority of members of the National Union of Journalists would regard what has been said and done on this side of the House as something which is aimed at injuring the union. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) reminded the House earlier when he quoted from a Labour publication, the freedom of the Press is a public right and a public freedom. There was published recently a pamphlet written by three distinguished national editors in consultation with editors and newspapers throughout the country. That pamphlet said exactly the same thing, namely that the freedom of the Press is a public right. It is not for journalists to undermine that right. It is not for the House to undermine it. It is the duty of the Government to protect that freedom and to see that nothing is done to diminish or destroy it.
      It is because we on this side of the House feel so strongly and deeply about this principle that we oppose tonight what the Government are seeking to do and we try to persuade the House to accept the amendments which we have tabled.
      One of my major fears is that, unless the Government bend to the arguments which have been advanced from this side, we shall be in difficulties, because no one who is not a member of a union will in the end be allowed to make any contribution to the Press. In case there are any Labour Members who think that this is an exaggeration or a fear that is without substance, I remind the House that
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      a recent report in the Journalist suggested that the chapel of the Daily Mirror, for example, might ultimately refuse to accept contributions from those who were not members of the union; possibly it might allow two contributions a year, but not more than that. This would be an abuse of trade union power.
      I like to think that in saying that I speak for both sides of the House. What is the purpose of keeping out of the Press and denying a forum of discussion to the person who is not a member of a trade union? If it is argued that it is to protect the jobs of members of the NUJ, all that can be said is that it is a misconceived purpose. If it is an attempt to restrict the views that can be published in newspapers, it is something that everyone of us should resist to a man.
      Only recently in the Observer Sir Dingle Foot, the former Member for Ipswich who is not unrelated to the Secretary of State for Employment, reminded his readers that 60 years ago Kipling wrote
      "That the King over all the children of pride
      Is the Press—the Press—the Press!"
      Any Government who bow to the pressure of trade unions and thereby allow a new and sinister form of censorship will do something which must offend the conscience of us all and raise the fears of everyone who has any concern for democracy.
      Mr. Sydney Tierney: It may be an unusual way of beginning a speech, but I should like to begin by confessing that when I took part in the debate on Second Reading I thought that the Bill had something to do with British industry and with millions of workpeople who would be affected by it. I commenced my speech by saying that I knew nothing of editors' problems. That has been corrected. Within the last two or three weeks I have heard the words "freedom of the Press" 200 to 300 times.
      It is sensible that the passage relating to "reasonable grounds" was deleted in Committee. I hope that it will remain deleted. It is sensible because it affects 5 million trade unionists who already operate a closed shop and millions of others who want the right to do so.

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      The Bill is neutral as regards the closed shop. It neither stops anyone from operating a closed shop nor forces anyone to operate one. Everyone knows that, law or no law, closed shops will operate. In 1971 the Conservative Government with their Industrial Relations Act failed to kill off closed shops even when one of the specific intentions of the Act was to do just that.
      The subject of the closed shop has led to a lot of hullabaloo about the freedom of the Press. My hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Madden) in an excellent speech pointed out that a closed shop for journalists was not such a terrifying proposition except for those newspapers, including the Fleet Street nationals, which already operate one without any undue interference from editorial staff. What a death blow that journalists might have a closed shop like the closed shops already enjoyed by lawyers, doctors, and the like.
      8.30 p.m.
      On Second Reading the right hon. Member for Farnham (Mr. Macmillan) said that at one time he thought he was at a branch meeting of the NUJ. Some of us have tried to lead the discussion out of the newspaper offices of Fleet Street into the wider sphere of industrial relations where it rightly belongs. That was done on occasions with some difficulty. But no sooner had it been achieved than we were taken back to the Evening Gazette in Middlesbrough or the editorial offices of the Kentish Times, which, it would seem, are more important than the universal effect of the Bill on the total British work force.
      In Committee and in the House today we have been told that Parliament's prime function is to defend the individual, to defend the weak against the strong and minorities against majorities and, when it comes to the choice of a trade union, to protect the small unions from the big and powerful unions. We are then accused of putting too much power into the hands of the NUJ, a small union with approximately 25,000 members.
      Why draw the line on individual liberty at journalists? What confusion this is; how misleading. Journalists are seeking a closed shop to improve their pay and conditions on the newspapers
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      for which they work. The NUJ has clearly stated its objection and complete opposition to any form of censorship or vetting for political purposes. It cares as much about Press freedom as do editors.
      Whose freedom of the Press are we talking about? Is it the editors' freedom from the journalists or from the proprietors who have inherited or bought their right to exercise the freedom of the Press? At a time when everyone is talking about worker participation, worker directors and advisory boards, what is wrong with people who write for newspapers having a voice on the boards? Perhaps the Royal Commission on the Press will throw some light on that matter.
      I can well understand the fears of the editors and the proprietors. The NUJ, which was loosely knit and under strength and whose members were underpaid, has become alive and more militant in recent years. Even so, a legal prohibition on closed shops to quell the fears of proprietors and editors cannot be made effective. The law might make closed shops void, but, as we have seen, this in itself does not necessarily deprive them of practical effect.
      Governments cannot legislate either to promote or destroy militancy in the NUJ or anywhere else. The newspaper industry has it within its own hands to promote good industrial relations with the freedom of the Press and within the terms of the Bill.
      Much has been made by Conservative Members about the Donovan Report. We had its findings quoted chapter and verse in Committee. Donovan's principal exercise, as hon. Gentlemen opposite might know, was to examine the collective bargaining system in British industry which appeared to be breaking down.
      The central defect was the existence of two collective bargaining systems, known as the formal system and the informal system. The informal system concerned itself with national agreements such as joint industrial councils and wages councils, which are limited in their use and in the main deal only with wage rates, hours and conditions. The informal system was the description given to widespread factory and local agreements which covered many more aspects of industrial

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      relations. With the growth of informal collective bargaining there has been, and still is, some decentralisation and loss of control by unions and employers.
      What was further revealed in Donovan was that in the main, particularly with regard to wages councils, the formal system negotiated national wages for unorganised workers in low-pay industries. I quote the Retail Food Trades Wages Council agreement effective from 21st October 1974. The male rate in the London area for shop assistants was £18·45 a week and the female rate was £17·65. This is what the strengthening of collective bargaining is all about. Those people have no closed shop. The informal system negotiated better rates and conditions for organised workers in high-pay industries in a closed shop situation.
      The Government's first duty is to bring—
      Mr. Prior: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Can you explain what this part of the hon. Gentleman's speech has to do with the amendments?
      Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Myer Galpern): It is not for the Chair to explain the purpose of a speech or an amendment, but I think that the hon. Gentleman is somewhat wide of the amendment and unless he relates his speech to the amendment he will be going out of order.
      Mr. Tierney: I am trying to point out that we are talking about collective bargaining as a whole and not freedom of the Press. We are talking about closed shop situations. The greater number of British working people are neither organised nor in closed shops. The Bill will give some of them an opportunity so to be. That is one of the strong reasons why I support the Bill.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is under a misapprehension. We are not discussing the Second Reading. We are discussing a specific amendment. The hon. Gentleman is under an obligation to keep in order by addressing himself to the terms of the amendment.
      Mr. Tierney: Unions actively encourage closed shops because they are well-tried and successful. All employers find them useful, and some openly encourage them,
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      as we saw even during the period of the Industrial Relations Act. Governments have had occasion to deplore their restrictions on a few individuals, but they cannot effectively legislate against them, as we have seen. This we all know. It is the most powerful reason why the Bill should be supported.
      Mr. Peter Fry: It is rare to follow one's usual pair in debate. Therefore, the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Mr. Tierney) and the House will not expect me to be uncomplimentary about his speech. However, I hope that he will not expect me to share his view of the trade union movement, which he seems to think requires some defence. Most people in the country feel that we need some defence against excessive trade union power.
      I trespass into a debate on this subject, where normally I do not venture to tread, because a local experience has convinced me of the need for the amendments, or provisions very much like them. I have experienced a practical example which has caused me to take a major interest in something which otherwise would have been a matter of academic argument.
      It is right to consider the effects of passing this Bill if these amendments are not passed. It is all very well for the Government spokesman to use legalistic language to say that the freedom of the Press is not being threatened by the Bill because this Bill does not enforce the closed shop. How far are we to stretch our credibility? Are we to believe that as a direct result of this Bill the closed shop will not be actively sought and gained, even by industrial action if necessary? Only if we can genuinely believe that this will not be the case should we refuse to listen to those newspaper editors who clearly regard the issue as one of fundamental liberty of the Press.
      The Government make light of the criticisms and the worries expressed outside the House and on this side of the House. Indeed, they appear to take a high view of the National Union of Journalists. I received a letter from the hon. Member the Minister of State, Department of Employment in which he says:
      "The National Union of Journalists is a responsible union with clear rules and a code of professional conduct, which specifically repudiate deliberate censorship of any kind".

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      I am certain that the Government hold this view sincerely.
      It is relevant to this debate to consider how the NUJ or some of its branches operate. Towards the end of last year there was an industrial dispute which affected the Evening Telegraph in Kettering. This newspaper has a wide circulation in Northamptonshire. At that time any work that was not produced by members of the NUJ was blacked. During this period there was a bomb outrage in Northampton and the police asked the local newspaper editors to print an Identikit picture to warn the public as there was danger of further bomb outrages. Because there was a dispute, they went to the trouble of sending an NUJ photographer to the local police station where a policeman held the Identikit picture, which was photographed and then published in the local newspaper. It was clearly the product of a member of the NUJ.
      At this point the two versions of the story diverge a little. It was either on the instructions of the NUJ headquarters in London or on a decision of the local branch of the NUJ that the photograph was blacked and not produced in the local newspaper that night. It meant that people of Northamptonshire could not be warned or put on their guard. It is possible that the bomber could have struck again and people could have been killed or maimed by what was a political action either of the NUJ headquarters or of the local branch.
      The chairman of the branch, a prominent international Socialist and, I am sure, no friend of the workings of this House, persuaded the fathers of the printing chapel not to produce the picture. This is an instance of how serious the situation could become.
      After I had made my views felt on this event, I received a letter from a local NUJ branch which stated that the local branch
      "are concerned to know where you obtained this strictly inter-union—firm information".
      It said that the branch viewed with alarm the fact that I had this information. In effect, it felt that an apology was in order. It wanted an explanation from me as to the source of this information.
      I find it incredible that journalists, who presumably fight to the end on the confidentiality
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      of the information they are given, should refuse it to a Member of this House. That is a serious commentary on that local branch. If any apology is due, I suggest that it is from those who made the decision which could well have endangered the lives of my constituents and many other people in Northampton-shire. One can only think, being very charitable, that those responsible for this decision have a most distorted set of values. I cannot believe that there was any possible justification for their action which endangered lives in the county.
      8.45 p.m.
      Therefore, this incident raises the question of the actions and motives of some members of the NUJ, however small a minority they may be. It is not surprising that many editors are nervous because their fears could well be justified by activities such as those I have outlined and could be made real because locally many NUJ branches appear to have a right of independent interpretation of national rulings which can lead to surprising results. I should have thought that the incident I have outlined showed that there was a threat to editorial freedom. If these amendments are defeated, we shall simply encourage the militants of the NUJ to repeat such incidents.
      I cannot, therefore, accept the Government's view that it would not be right to legislate on the lines of the amendments. The Government have a duty to legislate. They owe it to the people to help to preserve and not to destroy the fundamental liberty of the Press. If they are not prepared to act on their own account, it is the Opposition's duty to attempt to insert amendments such as these in the Bill.
      Mr. Brian Walden: It is a reprehensible habit for Government back-bench Members to speak on amendments which the Government oppose. It is as bad a social habit as sniffing. Indeed, judging by the admirable campaign of the wife of my hon. Friend the Member for Chester-le-Street (Mr. Radice), it also has domestic consequences. It could be that I am keeping some of my colleagues away from their connubial bliss. Even if that did not worry me, the thought that some of the people waiting for them at home might come here would certainly

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      encourage me to be brief, because we all see the consequences of that.
      Therefore, whatever differences there may be between the Secretary of State and myself, I am sure he will feel that it is thoroughly wrong that Government back-bench Members should absorb the time of the House by speaking on amendments. I do it very seldom, so it may be taken that I am doing it now because I am not wholly at one with the thinking of the Secretary of State on this matter. I listened with great care to the extremely clear speech of the Minister of State, and there is a genuine prospect that I shall be wholly at one with the Secretary of State when I hear him wind up the debate. But I am not yet sure, and I think that there is a great issue involved here.
      The argument is regrettably complex because it has to do with the doomed and fatal subject of industrial relations. The Opposition know well my views on what they did in 1971. The principal reason why they are the Opposition now is what they did in 1971. I told them so at the time. Let us hope that we can get debates on industrial relations off the Floor of the House. It is not a very appropriate place for them.
      When discussing anything to do with industrial relations, we at once sink into a bog of recrimination and counter-recrimination and, without in any way being patronising, a lack of understanding, on my part as much as on anybody else's, about pre-entry closed shops, post-entry closed shops and the differences between one agreement and another. That is the first reason why we get into trouble in debates of this kind.
      The second reason is that too many high principles are involved for the good of logical discussion. It is always a bad thing when some of our great freedoms are in jeopardy. As "Mr. Dooley" once said,
      "The Republic is going to hell again this week."
      Whenever we reach the situation in which we feel that a freedom is foredoomed unless an amendment is enacted we do not on the whole get a terribly coherent discussion.
      It is not only a question of principles being involved. There are all sorts of complexities about the NUJ and militancy. I listened with delight to the
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      hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Smith) trying to work out what a member of the real Left was. That was of especial fascination to me. The hon. Member ended up with a definition of a member of the real Left as being an out-and-out totalitarian. That is a view I should like to discuss with him privately at some other time. It is an issue often discussed in my party.
      We had the issues of the real Left, the militants, freedom of expression, the possibility that we might lose free speech, and what is a closed shop. My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Mr. Tierney) brought up all sorts of issues about the values of workers combining together in their own interests. Somehow, in all of this that little nugget of disagreement which the Secretary of State and I think is important and which lies between us—that small pebble of discord which I feel sure he will sweep away—has been lost sight of.
      I want to be fair to my right hon. Friend. I do not think that the reports I read in this morning's paper of yesterday's meeting—I was at that meeting although I am in no way responsible for the reports—do justice to his point of view as I have heard it in private. I do not intend to go into those private conversations. I believe I know what lies between myself and the Secretary of State on the issue which particularly concerns me. I also want to do justice to the National Union of Journalists. I do not simply say, as many have done, that of course the overwhelming majority in the union are perfectly sensible people with as great a love, possibly greater, for the freedom of the Press as anyone else. Of course that is the case. It would be nonsensical to suggest that the NUJ is likely to be taken over by a body of people who hold views wholly dissimilar from the average journalist whom we know and the average journalist who makes up the NUJ.
      I will add this one warning. I am not as complacent as some of my hon. Friends about the actions of individual chapels. It is not as true as it is sometimes claimed that the NUJ can entirely control the activities of its chapels. Again in fairness to the NUJ, I must say that Mr. Morgan in private conversations with some of us certainly went a long way to alleviate our fears on this issue of chapels. It is true, and it is right that it should be

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      said clearly, that there is no thought in Mr. Morgan's mind, and no thought currently in the minds of many of the leading figures in the NUJ, of misusing any of the powers which they might get under the Bill.
      The Secretary of State has a quite unanswerable argument in my opinion when he says that the Bill is only restoring a situation that once existed. The only thing that might be wrong with that argument, and it would be a rare error for my right hon. Friend to commit, is that it is slightly Chamberlainesque in that it does not accept that sometimes situations change. My right hon. Friend may be right in saying that it only restores a situation that once existed, but things could have happened in the meantime which call for something from him. In my opinion that is the case. It is my belief, as he knows, that something is called for from him, namely, an absolutely unequivocal statement about something to which I will come. At least the Secretary of State is right in claiming that it is nonsense to pretend that we did not have in this country for many years a situation which he is now restoring.
      I must frankly say to the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior), to whom I listened with great interest, that I am not in the least attracted to his amendments, since they do not touch at all the point that concerned me most. Indeed, I do not think the right hon. Gentleman grasped what it is that principally worries most of my hon. Friends. I really do not think he understood what was at issue in our minds. Let me tell him what is not at issue.
      I am not in the least bit concerned to prevent the National Union of Journalists from establishing a closed shop. I have always been absolutely in favour of closed shops—indeed in a somewhat ruthless way, as those who heard me speak in debates on the 1971 Act will know. They will know my reasons for feeling like that. So I do not worry in the least about the NUJ having a closed shop. That does not concern me. Nor do I think that there is any serious problem in regard to editorial freedom in the normal sense—that is, the freedom to print editorials and the freedom of the paper to have a policy. It is highly unlikely,
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      even if all those wicked and silly young men from the IS grow in numbers, that they will grow in sufficient numbers that the editorial staff of the Daily Express will arrive in the editor's office and say "We do not like that leader on the gold standard. You must take it out and put in this one that we have just written, otherwise we shall go on strike". That is not a scenario that seems at all probable. We must consider hypothetical and fanciful situations, but that is a little too hypothetical and fanciful for me to worry about.
      I am certain that in the end the NUJ will have an agreement which will allow editors to join or not to join and which, even if they join, will exclude them from having to take part in industrial disputes. Incidentally, that is an exclusion which rightly should be confined to the editor himself. I am on the NUJ's side in saying that it should not be confined to something called "the editorial staff". That would possibly be a significant number of scabs. I take the NUJ's view that if it is conducting an industrial dispute it should be able to have its blokes out. The NUJ has a right to have its blokes out. None of that worries me.
      In nothing of what I have said am I being anti-NUJ, anti-union or even anti-closed shop. I have never hidden from my political colleagues, whatever my political views may be on other things, my views on closed shops. I represent an extreme Left-wing point of view, and I always have done. I see enormous power in having closed shops. I have never believed that legislation would have any significant impact on them at all. I thought that what was done to try to inhibit them was pure folly. The sooner we all get away from the idea of trying to do that, the better.
      I was at one with my hon. Friend the Minister of State when he talked about the neutrality of the Bill. Therefore, what is it that worries me? What worries me is something which is of very great importance and which is a significant practical possibility—not a hypothetical chimera that might happen but something which, if we are not very careful, will happen. It is the question, of course, of access, which the amendments of the right hon. Member for Lowestoft do not deal with at all. That is what matters.

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      I interpret as a vital editorial function—quite rightly and to my mind not to be abridged; a vital function of the editor—the ability to be able to determine who writes in his newspaper. That is crucial. If one takes that right away from editors, one severely restricts the access of people to the media, certainly to the Press. It is said "Oh yes, but there have been some most outrageous abuses in this respect in the past by proprietors", and, indeed, there have. There have been, I may add—as they are not saintly characters—some shocking abuses by editors on entirely their own volition. I do not think that Mr. Geoffrey Dawson's editorship of The Times was exactly distinguished much, shall we say, by a clear view of the freedom of the Press, which should be thrown open to all points of view. He used busily to spend his time censoring the copy of his own Berlin correspondent because he did not like it. Of course there have been abuses.
      But I say to those of my hon. Friends who put that as a strong point, as if it carries the weight of the argument, that two blacks do not make a white. The fact the proprietors and editors have abused the right of people to have free access to the media does not mean that it does not, therefore, matter if someone else now comes along and does it. It does matter.
      9.0 p.m.
      I do not in the least want to be unjust to the NUJ. The NUJ's record in comparison with what we have seen in the past is admirable. But there are some rather ugly and ominous signs—they cannot be shugged off or pushed aside and said not to exist, because they do exist—that a minority in the NUJ interprets Press freedom in exactly the sense in which the hon. Member for Rochdale interpreted the "real Left"—namely, in the sense that they do not intend that people other than themselves shall have access to it.
      The first step towards that is to restrict access to all non-NUJ members. I should declare an interest here as I have in the past earned money from writing in the newspapers, as has my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State. Indeed, I recall a holiday that he and I had in Venice during which, late one night, tired and emotional, we both agreed that writing for newspapers was a mug's business.
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      So it is not much of an interest that I wish to declare. Unless they wish to have their name in fame, I do not advise any hon. Members who wish to make their way in the world to write for the newspapers, because they are lousy payers. Nevertheless, I have done that in the past. I am particularly concerned about that aspect of the matter, though it would be a pity for myself if I did not have the discipline occasionally of writing an article.
      However, I am worried also about the specialist Press. We should remember that much of the specialist Press is very largely produced by non-NUJ labour. I do not know how many NUJ members write in The Times Literary Supplement. It cannot be an awful lot, in terms not only of Members of Parliament but of public figures in general. It would seem a quite intolerable situation if we had chapels of the NUJ deciding that the hon. Member for somewhere or other—let us cay, Thanet, East (Mr. Aitken)—could do two articles a year in the Daily Express and one a year in the Sunday Express. It would be intolerable if a chapel of the NUJ decided that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, if he should ever leave the Cabinet—as we shall all hope never occurs—could not be accepted back except on the basis of two articles every quarter or an article a week for three months and then no more restriction on articles at all.
      Let us face it: that begins to look like the reality of the situation which my right hon. Friend and I know exists in certain chapels. If one looks at it fairly, from the point of view of the NUJ, why should it not exist? The NUJ, after all, is having to look after its members in a contracting profession. Journalism is not in a healthy or happy state, as has been mentioned. There will be fewer jobs in journalism. It seems perfectly reasonable to some people in the NUJ, who are neither militants nor Marxists, nor even real Socialists, that what work there is should be restricted to NUJ members. One can understand a trade union thinking like that. It is vitally important that the union knows that we do not.
      Let it be quite clear that the House of Commons could not stand by and see such a view put into operation by anyone—not simply by the NUJ, but by anyone. That, frankly, is what I want the Secretary

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      of State to say, so clearly and unambiguously that there can be no doubt in anyone's mind that if the very wise and sensible advice of Mr. Morgan, who is such a strong advocate of the best interests of his union, were neglected by a group of hotheads or militants, or whatever one cares to call them, who decided that this Bill now gave them the right to restrict the contributions of non-NUJ members and that they would use that right, since there was nothing that Parliament could say about it because the Secretary of State says that he would not say anything, they would be in error. It should be said clearly that the neutrality of which we speak in the Bill is a neutrality on the basis of the facts as we now know them, and that if those facts were to change in such a way—I am now quoting, I think, my hon. Friend the Minister of State—as would alarm both my hon. Friend and myself, the Government would act.
      I do not wish to misquote my hon. Friend. I think he said something like "Her Majesty's Government would be leading the House to safeguard editorial freedom if it were shown to be under threat." If we can have it absolutely clear from the Secretary of State that the words "editorial freedom" clearly include the right of free access to the paper, any worries that I might have as to what I think are the real problems which are likely to arise will have disappeared, because we shall have given clear notice that the Act is neutral, that it was not even mainly thought of, indeed at all thought of, in terms of the Press, that the issue has come up in this form, that we see no evidence at the moment that it requires Government legislative action, but that if we did the parliamentary demand to take it would be absolutely irresistible.
      Mr. Cyril Smith: Let me first assure the hon. Gentleman that I do not count him a real Socialist. I have followed his argument with great interest and rapt attention. Assuming that he was satisfied that there was such evidence as he has mentioned, how in terms of legislation would he deal with that situation other than by ensuring the freedom of editors?
      Mr. Walden: I will answer that question head on. First, however, in view
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      of the hon. Gentleman's definition of a real Socialist, which seemed to me to be a totalitarian idiot, I should like to say that I am delighted that he does not include me in that category.
      I will meet the hon. Gentleman's question head on. It is one that I have pondered at great length. I almost pre-resumed to put down an amendment myself. The issue is simple. The Secretary of State says that it is much better not to deal with industrial relations by law. I agree. If we can possibly avoid drafting legislation to stop people from doing things which we know they will do anyway, we are wise to do so—first, because it brings the law into contempt, and, second, because the law will not survive, as hon. Members opposite have learned. If they recall it, that was the basis of what I said to them some years ago, that they had no hope of making such legislation work and that no such legislation ever can be workable so long as our society is as it is. So I am wholly at one with the Secretary of State there.
      Moreover, I am wholly at one with the NUJ, because it is entirely right for it to be able to say, "Why should we have a law which says that you can do this and this and this unless you are a member of the NUJ? Then you cannot, you are under a different sort of law." So the thing would be much better left alone, with, however, a powerful 16-inch shell in the big gun of the Secretary of State to make it clear not just to the NUJ but to anyone who may be concerned to listen throughout the media that our right hon. Friend could not reconcile to Labour Party policy or to his conscience that this House should permit access to the media to be denied by any group, except—
      Mr. Cyril Smith: How would the hon. Gentleman stop it?
      Mr. Walden: In the end, the answer is that one has to bite into the sour apple. I will say publicly what I have said privately to the Secretary of State. If access to the media were denied in that way after a clear Government intention had been stated here tonight in unambiguous terms which could not be misunderstood, if then what is now merely a threat and a supposition became a reality, I would legislate.

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      The National Union of Journalists would then be put into a position that would be different from that of other trade unions. That I would greatly regret, as I believe it would cause endless trouble. That would not be the end of the matter. We would then have to set up endless commissions and have general Press laws of the kind that obtain in Scandinavia. To most of my hon. Friends and to most Opposition Members it would be an intolerable situation. I believe that certain restrictions should be placed on the NUJ which should also be placed on proprietors, editors and others. I would deeply regret having to use the law. I was asked a straight question, and I think that I have answered it straightforwardly.
      I want a declaration from my right hon. Friend that is absolutely decisive. If we do not get that I shall want to consider my position on the whole issue. If we get such a declaration, that will be enough. If it did not prove enough I would legislate. It should always be the greater rather than the lesser. It is more important that we preserve hope and access in the media than not to legislate on industrial relations. However much trouble it might cause, I would do it.
      What is at least in prospect as a threat is that the worst could possibly happen. I can think of no situation more intolerable than that a small group of people should determine throughout the entirety of the Press to impose certain restrictions. Proprietorial abuses, which are well known, are confined, because not one man yet owns all the Press, whereas the NUJ, if it had such a policy, would be able to deny access throughout the entire Press if it chose to do so. However, I do not believe that it will do any such thing. A great deal of trouble will be saved if it is made clear to the NUJ that if it did such a thing the Secretary of State would find a lot of people sitting behind him who would find the situation quite intolerable. They would demand legislation to put it right, knowing full well that the House was involved.
      Mr. Prior: The hon. Gentleman keeps saying that he would introduce legislation in the last resort. He has criticised our amendments but he has not suggested what form his legislation would take. His
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      legislation would have to create access to the Press for the outside contributors about whom he has been talking. With that we would agree. Our amendments deal with the point by not allowing the operation of the closed shop. We would thereby allow outsiders to contract without the fear of NUJ blacking.
      Mr. Walden: The right hon. Gentleman and myself are riding two completely different horses up two completely different race tracks. The right hon. Gentleman wants to stop the closed shop. I do not want that. I want to maintain access to outside contributors. The right hon. Gentleman has said that he is less concerned with that. He believes that that would be a by-product of a system in which no closed shop existed. I believe that the NUJ has a right to have a closed shop in a newspaper office if it can get one.
      I agree entirely with my hon. Friend the Minister of State. It is not the case that the Bill means that the NUJ will have a closed shop everywhere. That is nonsense. It means that the Government are neutral as between its right to try to get one and its right not to get one. The NUJ is not given a special inducement and it is not presented with a special deterrent. I am certain that that is right. That is why I do not agree with the right hon. Member for Lowestoft. I still say that he is insufficiently aware that access is the key. There can be no objection to an NUJ closed shop provided it is not being used to deny access to the Press to non-NUJ members and provided editorial responsibility is not being interpreted in such a way as to exclude access, that being the most vital of all editorial responsibilities.
      Mr. Aitken: Is the hon. Gentleman not aware that the danger of his proposed legislation is that it will clearly be a case of shutting the stable door after the Press freedom horse has bolted? He has already suggested that he is worried about access. He has fairly acknowledged that he is worried about some chapels which have said that they will restrict contributors to a fixed number. He is worried on those two fronts. How is he so complacent that a few words from the Secretary of State will make everything all right?
      9.15 p.m.
      Mr. Walden: In no sphere of life do I like to give the advantage to the "real Socialists", as the hon. Member for Rochdale calls them. The people who would gain most if we passed the amendment would be the militants in the NUJ. I think it would put Mr. Morgan and people like him in a very difficult position indeed. They would have to go back to their membership and say "Every other union is treated differently from us. We, and we alone, are not allowed to have a closed shop." If that happened, the "real Socialists" would love it. The hon. Member for Thanet, East is sufficiently politically astute to know that in no time at all the "real Socialists" would be running the NUJ, and once that happened the situation would be that much worse. I am prepared to take a reasoned gamble that if the NUJ were warned in advance that the situation would be intolerable if it acted in certain ways, it would not act in those ways, especially if that warning were to come from my right hon. Friend.
      I do not think we should deal with this matter by legislation. I hope that a situation will never arise which would lead us to do so. But it is enormously important that my right hon. Friend should make his well-known views about access to the Press so clear to all who may be interested that nobody can say that there is doubt and ambiguity and everybody will know that it is the committed view of the Government Front Bench that if the power of the NUJ were ever misused to restrict access of non-NUJ members to the Press there would be legislation in this House, and there is nothing that my right hon. Friend could do to stop it. Indeed, I would hope that he would introduce it.
      Mr. John Gorst: Will the hon. Gentleman explain how a closed shop is closed if it is open?
      Mr. Walden: I warned hon. Members before the hon. Gentleman came into the Chamber that there is nothing worse than becoming involved in industrial relations nomenclature. The situation in journalism is well known. Some—indeed, most—national newspapers have closed shops. There are two major unions in journalism but one is much larger than the other. Editors can belong, but often
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      do not belong, to a trade union. I am sure that what was said by the Minister of State is correct and that eventually there will be an amalgamation whereby they may or may not join, as they choose. If they become NUJ members they will not be required to act in industrial disputes, other than in a manner in which their normal editorial responsibilities permit them to do so.
      However, do not let us get involved in old arguments about closed and open shops. All I would say is that there is very little indeed that the law can do about it unless we put in an absolutely specific provision to meet a specific case. I would be loth to do that, but whether I decide that that is the best thing to do depends entirely upon what my right hon. Friend says when he winds up.
      Several Hon. Members rose—
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Whilst offering no criticism of the length of the speech of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Mr. Walden), may I remind hon. Members that at the moment there are still about 10 hon. Members who wish to participate in the debate. If each takes the same length of time as the hon. Member for Ladywood and then we have the winding-up speeches, we should have a vote about six hours from now.
      Mr. Percival: I agree that the question of access is most important, but I do not agree that it can be dissociated from this amendment. In the interests of brevity, however, I shall incorporate that in a later part of my speech.
      I agree that the amendment raises questions of immense importance, taking us into two fields which give rise to strong feelings in this House—those of industrial relations and the freedom of the Press, the protection of which we all feel so strongly about.
      The Minister will probably agree that it has been very encouraging to have had so long a debate in which so many hon. Members have spoken about industrial relations with feeling but without acrimony. In this kind of debate there is no monopoly of interest in the freedom of the Press in any one part of the House. I base my argument on the assumption that all hon. Members are concerned to safeguard the freedom of

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      the Press as one of the important privileges of the people we represent. The issue tonight is whether the amendments are necessary and proper for safeguarding that freedom.
      The hon. Member for Sowerby (Mr. Madden) made a statement which was potentially immensely significant. He said that the NUJ was "determined not to force editors to join the union", and I am sure that he believed that to be right. If that were true, these amendments might not be necessary. However, my hon. Friend the Member for Thanet, East (Mr. Aitken) then quoted evidence which clearly cast doubt on that statement. The Minister of State clearly believes that the amendments are unnecessary because he believes that the situations which we fear will prejudice this freedom will not arise. I hope that he will now accept that those of us who feel sceptical about that assurance are not being too unreasonable.
      I am glad that so much tribute has been paid to Mr. Ken Morgan. I have met Mr. Morgan, and I know that he says with great courage and sincerity those things that the Minister of State attributes to him. He is a very moderate man. I have also had the experience of listening to Mr. Knowles, another important official of the union, who said quite frankly that his objective was to secure a single union closed shop up to and including editors in order to secure workers' control of the industry.
      It is difficult to understand what possible objection there can be to the amendments if the majority of the NUJ membership do not wish to impinge upon the freedom of the Press. The amendments would not prevent them from doing anything they would want to do, and would not prevent them from conducting what they would regard as legitimate trade union practice. They would only prevent others from doing what they themselves say they do not want to do. If these protestations are genuine, and I am sure they are in many of those concerned, why not have this safeguard? But for cases where those views are not held genuinely by some who profess them, or are openly repudiated by those who hold a different view, surely it is necessary to have provisions of this sort as a safeguard.
      My hon. Friend the Member for Thanet, East said that the Minister must hold the
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      ring here. The Minister can do what we are asking whilst genuinely remaining neutral and holding the ring. We are asking him only to introduce restrictions, which the responsible members of the NUJ would not mind anyway, to guard against a danger we believe may be present.
      But even if it is not present now, may we have a better and more practical answer to the point raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior)? Let us assume that there is no danger at the moment; but what if the annual conference of the NUJ the next time or the time after changes its policy and decides to do something which it has at present no intention of doing? The Minister of State said that that would not make any difference. I wish to point out the error of that statement. Supposing the annual conference of the NUJ passed a resolution making it its policy to go flat out for a single union closed shop for all employees up to and including editors—as has, in fact, been proposed by more than one important member. To carry out that resolution it must then squeeze out all contributors who are not members of the union and all members of the Institute of Journalists, and insist upon all editors becoming union members. Whether it can do so depends primarily not on the contents of the Bill but on the industrial strength of the union and the limits to which the union is prepared to use that strength to succeed in its objectives.
      But it is not right to say that the Bill is neutral. It does not oblige anyone to enter into an agreement but it does have this effect on the situation. It assists those who want to carry out a resolution of that kind by removing the right to compensation of those who are dismissed. When the union says to the employer "You must sack all the members of the Institute of Journalists because we want not only an all-union shop but a single union closed shop", the editor and the proprietor can no longer say "We cannot afford to pay compensation to all of them." Thus the measure weakens the hand of the employer should he wish to resist while strengthening the hand of the union which puts into effect a resolution of the kind I have mentioned. That happens at the expense of the individual who would be happy to continue

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      doing a responsible job but is squeezed out by the course of events.
      Mr. Clemitson: How does that differ from the pre-1971 position? Does the hon. and learned Member suggest that prior to the 1971 Industrial Relations Act there was not a position of legal neutrality in regard to closed shops?
      Mr. Percival: The hon. Gentleman falls into the error of testing everything against whether or not it existed before 1971. He has forgotten that the 1971 Act introduced a considerable number of innovations which were so good that the Labour Government, while professing to repeal them, re-enacted approximately 45 sections of the 1971 Act, including the provisions that if a man was dismissed he should have a prima facie right to compensation for unfair dismissal. The Government are now taking away that right, so that a man may be dismissed without compensation simply because he does not want to belong to a union or a particular union. The Minister of State knows that what I am saying is right. The provisions of this Bill have the effect I have stated, and to that extent make it easier for a union which passes a resolution of the kind I have described and goes into action to put it into effect.
      Mr. Bob Cryer. Does not the hon. and learned Gentleman agree that it is a little confusing for us to listen to him—a lawyer—arguing that other people should not have the right to a closed shop? Is not his own organisation one of the tightest, most closely knit, Mafia-like closed shops in the country, if not in the world? Does he not recognise that there is a great difference between what he is arguing and what he practices?
      9.30 p.m.
      Mr. Percival: When one says that one is "glad to have been asked that question" one may not usually mean it, but I do in this case. There is no comparison. Those of us who practise at the Bar are members of a closed shop. But we have not yet reached the stage of insisting that the judges should also be members of the closed shop and amenable to our directions.
      The provisions of the Bill are not neutral. They give a helping hand to
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      the strong at the expense of the weak. We should not do that anyway, but there is a particular reason for not doing it in the case of the Press, and that is where I cross swords with the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Mr. Walden). The reason is that we are not simply talking about the rights of journalists to indulge in trade union activities; we are also considering a public right, the right to a free Press. I think that all hon. Members would agree with the proposition that, just as we recognise that it would be intolerable to allow monopoly control of editorial content by one proprietor, so it would be intolerable to allow a situation in which there might be a danger of potential monopoly control in one union.
      The amendments are modest. They safeguard the position if any union tried to achieve what, by common consent, judging from the speeches we have heard today, most of us would regard as reprehensible. Will the Government, even at this late stage, not recognise that we really are dealing with a practical possibility? We have the opportunity to do something which would be no detriment to those who act according to the principles which we should want them to follow, but which would provide a safeguard for the people of this country against those who might be tempted to stray outside those principles.
      Mr. David Marquand: The debate touches extremely important issues, and it is not surprising that it has gone on for so long. Like many of my hon. Friends, I am in a dilemma. The dilemma is a little less painful now, thanks to the speech made by my hon. Friend the Minister for State, than it was when the debate began but it has not yet been totally removed. I hope, therefore, that the Secretary of State will be able to remove it when he winds up.
      My dilemma is that I do not like the amendments which have been put down by the Opposition. They deal with the problem in the wrong way. I agreed with my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Mr. Walden) that it would be anomalous to pass an Act of Parliament which, in effect, said that all trade unions except the journalists' unions should be put in the position that they were in before 1971. This would be an anomalous and a provocative thing

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      to do. It would exacerbate the dangers which have been seen by hon. Members in all parts of the House.
      Secondly, it is an implicit assumption in the amendments that the chief threat to the freedom of the Press comes from the activities of the unions in the industry. I do not believe that is true. There are other, and I would say greater, threats to the freedom of the Press than those posed by the activities of the unions. For that reason I do not think that the course proposed in the amendments is the right way to proceed.
      Finally, as my hon. Friend the Minister of State demonstrated with total success, the amendments do not in any case cover the heart of the matter—namely, freedom of access of the widest possible range of citizens to the Press and broadcasting media. For all those reasons, I do not like the amendments and want to be able to vote against them.
      On the other hand, I cannot accept that the position would be satisfactory if the Bill went through unamended and if nothing else at all were done about the situation. I believe that there is a real danger to freedom of access to the Press. Access to the media is one of the fundamental cornerstones of democracy; it is also one of the main guarantees of the quality of the cultural life of this country. If the dangers which hon. Members in all parts of the House have seen lurking in the background were to come to pass, not only would the quality of our democracy be impaired but the quality of our nation would also be at stake. Therefore, I believe that the dangers are real and should be safeguarded against.
      It has been said that many of the dangers may be remote and fanciful, but I believe that the House of Commons has a duty to guard against them. Certainly the Government of the day have a clear duty to make it clear that we take a stand against those dangers, however remote and fanciful they may be thought to be.
      I urge my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment in his reply to go into a little more detail on these matters than did my hon. Friend the Minister of State. The Minister of State said that if the fears which had been expressed about the freedom of editors and the freedom of access were to be
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      realised the Government would consider legislation. What will the Government consider to be reasonable grounds for legislation? That is a question which the House has a right to have answered. What criteria will the Government use to determine whether freedom of access is likely to be in danger?
      The Minister of State said that the NUJ had given assurances in private consultations with the Government about the position of editors; he said nothing to suggest that the union had given similar assurances about freedom of access. I should like to know from the Secretary of State what position the NUJ has taken up with the Government on this crucial question of freedom of access.
      My final question to my right hon. Friend is probably the most important of all. What is the Government's attitude to the informal discussions which have been going on between the NUJ and the other interested parties? I understand that it is hoped that out of the discussions will finally emerge what seems to be the best solution to the problem, namely, the charter of Press freedom agreed by all the parties involved. That would be by far the best way of solving the problem and of meeting the fears which have been expressed. But what would the Government do if by some mischance a charter of that kind was not accepted by the union's delegate conference? Would they regard that as some proof that the fears expressed in this Chamber might come true? If necessary, would my right hon. Friend be prepared to give legislative expression to the outcome of the discussions, assuming that that was thought reasonable and proper by all the parties to them?
      Those are the specific questions which I hope that my right hon. Friend will be able to answer. If he can give satisfactory answers, I think that this will be the best way to proceed.
      Mr. J. Grimond: I intend to be extremely brief. In fact, it was not my intention to intervene in this debate. On doing so, naturally I declare an interest.
      I want briefly to comment on the speeches of the hon. Members for Ash-field (Mr. Marquand) and Birmingham,

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      Ladywood (Mr. Walden) because in my view they go to the very heart of the matter, which is the question of access.
      It must be admitted at the outset that the Press is in a different position from that of many other occupations. It is concerned with wide questions of freedom, with the carrying on of government and with the dissemination of information of all sorts. It is not true that simply because the closed shop may be generally accepted throughout industry, it must be carried over to the Press. It is also true that circumstances have changed in the last few years, and that point was fairly made by the hon. Member for Ladywood.
      I welcome the suggestion that there should be a charter. I am certain that those members of the NUJ who are associated with The Guardian and the Manchester Evening News would be the last people to deprive an accepted contributor of access. The Guardian and the Manchester Evening News are controlled by trustees, of whom I am one. We have no equity. The trust has no financial gain. We have working journalists on the trust. It has a long tradition that the independence of the editors is safeguarded by the trustees, and the journalists on the trust would be in the forefront of any move deploring a departure from that tradition. I am sure they would be opposed to a union which, operating right through the Press, tried to stop any form of outside contribution.
      Nevertheless I believe that the solution proposed by the hon. Member for Lady-wood and supported by the hon. Member for Ashfield poses certain problems. It would be difficult for any Government to propose specific legislation to deal with what they regarded as being specific cases of infringement of freedom of access. I am not even certain that that would be desirable. In any event, I doubt whether the Government would do it.
      9.45 p.m.
      Therefore, there is a case for the House coming in now before the difficulties have arisen and trying to prevent the situation from arising if there should ever be any danger of it. Although I welcome the idea of a charter, I believe that the Government must go further than simply
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      making a statement that they would deplore any such attack upon free access to the Press and might take steps to stop it. They might want to make some suggestion in another place as to how they would deal with it. I am not at all sure that it would be right for the House to leave the matter with the Government making a promise to intervene in particular cases. It is difficult to see how these cases might arise, but one can certainly envisage some cases in which it would be almost impossible for the Government to say to the House "There has been an incident and, therefore, we intend to introduce special legislation to deal with it."
      Therefore, while wholly sympathising with the speeches of the hon. Members for Ladywood and for Ashfield and believing that they have put their finger on the real difficulty, I believe that we must go further than merely having a Government declaration. I hope that the Government will indicate that they will look at the matter again and that if they do not like these amendments they will make some concrete proposals of their own.
      Mr. Roderick MacFarquhar: As a member of the National Union of Journalists I take seriously the issue of the freedom of the Press and I am prepared to accept that Conservative Members are sincerely concerned about the problem. However, I believe that the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) and his hon. Friends have confused principle with process. The principle they are concerned with in their amendment is the principle of the closed shop, which, they allege, would strike at the heart of Press freedom.
      The evidence that right hon. and hon. Members have adduced is nothing to do with the closed shop. It concerns the process which they allege has been taking place within the National Union of Journalists within recent years—that is, a movement towards the far Left. I do not believe that Opposition Members can be serious in suggesting that a closed shop is of itself a threat to the Press. There is, as everyone knows, more than one union concerned with the printing and production of newspapers. The absence of a closed shop on that side of the industry has not prevented recurring and fundamental threats to the freedom

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      of the Press in the form of printing strikes which have prevented newspapers from coming out.
      In the say way, if the Opposition really believed that the possibility of an NUJ closed shop was a threat to Press freedom, they should surely have legislated during the 13 years of government they had in the 1950s and 1960s. The reason why they did not legislate is simply that they were not at that time concerned about the political complexion of the NUJ.
      I would share the concern of hon. Members if there was a prospect of, say, the International Socialists dominating the NUJ or some of its chapels. However, if that situation were to eventuate the existence or non-existence of the closed shop would be totally irrelevant. Let us suppose that the IS were to gain complete control of the Financial Times chapel—an unlikely eventuality, as my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Mr. Walden) has suggested. However, let us suppose that it happened and that the IS-dominated chapel confronted the Editor of the Financial Times and stated that it did not like the editorial line he was pursuing or that it ordered him not to publish more than two articles by, say, the hon. Member for Thanet, East (Mr. Aitken) in one year.
      I suggest that in such a situation it would be irrelevant whether the Editor of the Financial Times was a member of the NUJ, because even if he was not a member and, therefore, was not subject to NUJ discipline, given that this IS-dominated chapel existed on that paper it could still threaten him with the closing-down of the paper. That would be a threat which he would be unable to do anything about given the present financial state of the newspaper industry, upon which Conservative Members have dilated.
      In other words, if there is a problem it is the question not of the closed shop but of the political complexion of the NUJ. That being so, legislation or amendments to legislation will be of limited avail. The only way to stop extremists, if they were to gain control of the chapels or the central organs of the NUJ, would be for moderate members of the NUJ to fight against them in the union.
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      It was not legislation that changed the complexion of the leadership of the ETU; it was the fact that men like the late Les Cannon and Frank Chapple were prepared to fight for the leadership of that union.
      Freedom of the Press can only be preserved within a framework of legislation. I was glad to hear my hon. Friend the Minister of State say that the Government would be prepared to legislate if there were any sign that the freedom of the Press were abused. Like my hon. Friends the Members for Ladywood and for Ashfield (Mr. Marquand), I should welcome that statement reiterated even more clearly by the Secretary of State. But I re-emphasise, especially to my hon. Friends, that in the analysis no such legislation will be of any use against true extremists if there are not tough-minded, moderate journalists in the NUJ like the present general secretary, to whom many hon. Members have rightly paid tribute, who are prepared to take on such extremists and struggle for the soul of their union. I suggest that free journalists, not simply free editors, are the best protection for a free Press.
      Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg: The hon. Member for Belper (Mr. MacFarquhar) gave us the parallel of the ETU and paid tribute to the late Les Cannon. It was not until individual members of the ETU took their case to a court to expose ballot rigging that anything happened. Therefore, it is not always possible for members of unions or, indeed, the general public to survive without recourse to law.
      Mr. MacFarquhar: I was not suggesting that legislation or the law was relevant. I said that a framework was important, but that if no one was prepared to stand up and fight and take advantage of the law, the law was irrelevant.
      Mr. Finsberg: Equally, however much people are prepared to stand up and fight, if there is no law to protect them there is not much that they can do.
      The hon. Members for Ashfield (Mr. Marquand) and Birmingham, Ladywood (Mr. Walden) made two or three points which require a certain amount of consideration. The views that they expressed appear to cross the Floor. However, they

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      left me in the position of a Pearl White serial: if they get satisfactory answers to their questions they might decide to support the Government. It will be interesting to see what satisfaction they get.
      One point disturbs me. I thought for a moment that the hon. Member for Ladywood, had a valid point when he said that he was willing to gamble in the sense that he would not support the amendments in the hope that all would go well. How far is he willing to gamble? Would it not be wiser, for example, for the Government to take powers in this Bill, if necessary, to introduce a regulation should things go wrong? There is no point at all in the fine speech and rhetoric of the hon. Gentleman because he is not in the Government and does not have to find parliamentary time. We know how Leaders of the House of all parties jealously say "There is no time available". Therefore all the fine words about giving a warning and, if the warning is ignored, the Government introducing legislation mean nothing, because in the end the Government control time. On the other hand, if a regulation could be laid, which would be debatable under the affirmative or negative order procedure, at least the safeguard would be there.
      I am not prepared to allow the remarks made by the hon. Member for Coventry, North-West (Mr. Edelman) to pass without comment, because I regard them as some of the most vicious words that I have heard in this House since I became a Member in 1970. The hon. Gentleman made a personal attack upon Lord Goodman and, when challenged, was not brave enough to say what the allegations of censorship and leaning on journalists were or to justify himself outside the privilege of this Chamber. That is a most dangerous thing for a well-respected Member to say. One wonders what his motives were.
      I warned the Secretary of State that I would make some unkind remarks about him. When I watched him on television many years ago, when he was in the company of Messrs. Brown, Boothby and Alan Taylor, I thought he was a democrat, because he said so, and I believed him. I believed that he valued freedom.
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      I recall some words that I heard many years ago which seem to apply to what the right hon. Gentleman is trying to get the House to accept, today:
      "His honour rooted in dishonour stood,
      And faith unfaithful kept him falsely true."
      He is trying to apply double standards. If any one man is in danger of letting freedom down, it is the Secretary of State, who seems unwilling or unable to see the point. I very much hope that it is the latter.
      As one of my constituents, the right hon. Gentleman will be as well aware as I am of the existence of the Hampstead and Highgate Express, and will be an equally avid reader of that journal. Along with, I think, 23 of his Labour colleagues, whom I have the honour to represent in Parliament, he will know that the political views of that newspaper are not always mine. More often than not it supports their party. I want to quote from the editorial of 22nd November, talking about the then strike called as a result of a pay dispute. The newspaper said:
      "Nevertheless, the journalists refused the option to strike. Instead, the NUJ, a badly split union in which the militants are gaining increasing power, imposed sanctions which 'blacked' the copy of non-NUJ journalists and contributors.
      This raised the question of censorship. Indeed, we are amazed that the minor Institute of Journalists has not sought a High Court injunction to prevent its members from being discriminated against and their livelihoods put at stake.
      The IoJ, after all, is a recognised union and one with which the NUJ made an abortive attempt to amalgamate. It surely must be illegal for one union to threaten the existence of another in this deplorable way. … But the status of editors as such has now also entered the issue with the Government's proposed closed shop legislation.
      There are real fears—and Employment Secretary Michael Foot has yet to dispel them—that editors may be forced to join the NUJ and that this will denude them of their traditional freedom. It is a freedom that must be jealously guarded and the government stopped from bashing the press that Harold Wilson hates so much.
      And that freedom can only be maintained by legislation which gives editors an exact legal status that neither managements nor unions can usurp."
      Following that editorial, I have had quite a number of discussions with the editor. He will not mind my saying that he is on the opposite side of the

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      political fence to me. In a letter dated 14th January he said:
      "I think it fair to say that while I may not be opposed to a closed shop in principle—it does help in some industries—it cannot work in newspapers unless there is a built-in guarantee that the freedom of the press will be unaffected.
      Despite what Mr. Foot has already said on the subject, I believe that such a guarantee must be written into the legislation and that Editors are given an exact legal status that neither management nor union can usurp."
      I believe he is right. The Government have not satisfied us that they are taking this matter as seriously as it should be taken.
      We all know why the Bill is with us. It was only hinted at once today—
      It being Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.
      Ordered,
      That the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Amendment) Bill may be proceeded with at this day's sitting, though opposed, until any hour.—[Mr. Stoddart.]
      Question again proposed. That the amendment be made.
      Mr. Finsberg: The Bill is with us because it repays the unions for their support and their vote. I remind the House that Danegeld has a habit of increasing. What price will next be demanded, and for how long can not simply the freedom of editors but freedom itself survive?
      I accept, as every member of an Opposition must accept, that amendments drafted by Oppositions are defective. But it is the intentions behind them that are important. I am prepared to accept from the Minister of State that these amendments are defective and will not achieve what my right hon. Friend the Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) believes they will achieve. But I am not prepared to accept that the Government should not think again about this matter. Nothing concentrates the Government mind, even the Civil Service mind, more than having to put right defective provisions which a vote of the House has imposed on them. It puts the Government under a duty to put them right.
      Defective though the amendments may be, their intention is right. The idea behind them is right. The House should accept them and put the onus on the
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      Government, in another place if necessary, to reword them so that they satisfy the parliamentary draftsmen and the purists. Liberty should not depend on vague promises which cannot stand up to the determined efforts of some people to destroy the freedom of the Press.
      Mr. Ted Fletcher: A number of my hon. Friends hope to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, and therefore I shall not detain the House for long.
      It is as well to remember that the Bill covers over 5 million people who are working in establishments where they have negotiated or agreed a closed shop procedure, and, further, that the Bill's purpose is to restore the labour laws to more or less what they were before the introduction of the Industrial Relations Act 1971. But we seem to have focused our attention, not only in Committee but in this debate, on the position in the newspaper industry.
      Before the passing of the 1971 Act, every union had the right to negotiate or establish a closed shop. That right had existed for over 100 years. It was confirmed in 1924 by a court case which decided that it was a legitimate objective of a trade union to strive for a closed shop.
      Therefore, the first question which we must ask those who are putting forward the views of newspaper proprietors is this: whatever happened to Press freedom prior to 1971? Why did not Lord Goodman write to The Times about Press freedom in 1971? Before the passing of the Industrial Relations Act the NUJ had every right to establish a closed shop in its industry. As my hon. Friend the Member for Sowerby (Mr. Madden) has said, the national newspapers printed in London have enjoyed a closed shop for many years. Every journalist is a member of his trade union—the NUJ or the Institute of Journalists.
      We are entitled to ask why it is that in 1975 there is suddenly a great threat to Press freedom when it did not exist in 1971. The only answer we have had is that the union is today more militant and more extreme. Is this why Tory Members are against the closed shop? If so, let me remind them that there are militants and extremists in other unions. Why is this a problem only for the

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      newspaper industry? The discussion is taking place in an atmosphere which suggests that the closed shop is imposed on industry as a whole.
      The proprietors can reject the closed shop. They have three methods of approach. They can agree to a closed shop, they can come to some compromise with the union on who should be in the closed shop and so on, or they can reject it.
      This point was made in an article by the Labour Editor of the Financial Times, John Elliott, who puts the case well. His was one of the few articles to put a case in favour of the Bill out of the many that have appeared in the Press recently. He writes:
      "once a union or a group of workers has decided to try to obtain a closed shop, each employer is entitled to deal with this as he would with any other union claim—by negotiation or outright rejection. It is also open to an employer and a union to decide on specific provisions—for example, excluding existing employees from any requirement to join a union or allowing time for new recruits to join—and to write in any extra specific unions which are to be recognised."
      That seems to sum up the position of the Government, which is quite neutral. In the newspaper industry, as in other industries, the closed shop is a matter for negotiation between employer and employee. It cannot be set out in law.
      My hon. Friends have raised the question of free access to the Press. What do we mean by that? Certainly many of us do not have free access to the Press. If we see an article in favour of the Common Market we can write to the editor putting an anti-Common Market point of view, but it is doubtful whether we shall get that published. We have all had experience of trying to induce an editor to publish a statement or a letter from us. We do not have free access to the Press. It is a little unreal for some of us. What I think my hon. Friends are on about is whether the secretary of the local Women's Institute will be prevented from writing her monthly report and sending it to the editor.
      We have it on the authority of a pamphlet sent out by a number of editors, which most of us have read, that specific assurances have been given by the General Secretary of the NUJ and by Mr. Ron Knowles, the editor of the NUJ Journal,
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      to the effect that the union never suggested that it would not allow public figures or others to contribute to newspapers. The pamphlet goes on to say:
      "The real objection to Mr. Foot's Bill is that it leaves the power lying around. And a power lying around is a blunderbuss"—
      this is good journalese—
      "likely to be picked up, whether for occasional use in times of dispute, or in furtherance of other ends."
      That is a thunderer if ever there was one.
      This blunderbuss, this power, has been lying around for 100 years until 1971, until the Industrial Relations Act put another power in the hands of the employers. We gave a pledge in our manifesto that if we were returned to power we would abolish the Industrial Relations Act. This legislation on the closed shop is the last vestige of the Industrial Relations Act. We on the Government side of the House are pledged to abolish that Act. We want to return to the world of free collective bargaining, of open negotiation between employers and employees. This can be done in every area, including the newspaper area. I am convinced, therefore, that the amendment is totally unnecessary and I am particularly pleased that my hon. Friends are resisting it.
      Mr. Bryan Magee: My hon. Friend the Member for Belper (Mr. MacFarquhar) said that what this matter really comes down to is the question of the political complexion of the NUJ. I do not agree with that. In some of its organisations the NUJ has been infiltrated, and even here and there, perhaps, taken over by members of revolutionary Marxist parties; and those members of anti-democratic parties, not surprisingly, are not concerned with the democratic freedoms of the Press.
      However, I do not think that it is in that source that the greatest danger lies. Much more important than that is the fact that the Press is now drastically contracting. This is an area of shrinking employment, with ever-growing threats of unemployment. It is the job of a union in these circumstances to use its powers to protect the jobs of its members. That is what trade unions are for. In these circumstances the NUJ is almost bound by the logic of this

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      situation to use ever tougher and tougher measures to protect the jobs of its members. These are bound to include—indeed, they have already in some cases included—excluding non-union members from writing for newspapers. That is not because it wishes to censor their political views but because it wishes to preserve for its members all the paid employment that there is going.
      The Secretary of State is entirely right in saying that under the existing legislation it is within the power of the NUJ to bring about closed shops. There are already many closed shops in Fleet Street, and we know that it is the policy of the NUJ to go for the closed shop everywhere. The Secretary of State is quite right when he says that the Bill does not affect that position. Where the Bill does connect up with that position—I have not heard this connection spelled out in the debate, although I have been in the Chamber for several hours—is that if the NUJ succeeds in negotiating a closed shop agreement with proprietors—who, as Lord Goodman has rightly told us today, are often very weak in the face of a powerful union—and if the NUJ then uses that agreement to demand that the editor belong to the union, then if the editor refuses, under this legislation he will be liable to dismissal without compensation.
      It is the provisions for unfair dismissal compensation that establish the real connection that we ought to be discussing but which, as I say, I have not yet heard one person discuss in the Chamber this evening. That situation puts the editors, or can put them, in thrall to the unions. I am afraid that we already have reasonable evidence to give us grounds for fearing that the unions may abuse that power, not only, I repeat, because some of them have anti-democratic motivations, but, much more important, out of an entirely non-political concern for the employment of their members.
      Mr. Edelman: Even in such a situation, what is there to prevent the proprietors from making editors the kind of ex-gratia payments which they have done so frequently in recent years?
      Mr. Magee: There is nothing to prevent their doing so, and there is nothing to require their doing so. Editors would
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      be left entirely at the mercies—probably the untender mercies—of the union, on the one hand, and the proprietors on the other. We ought not to do that. There is no justification for doing that.
      10.15 p.m.
      To come back to my main point, editors in this situation will be very weak relative to the union. We have reason to suppose that the union may, and will be increasingly under temptation to, abuse the power that it has over editors. The freedom of the Press should not be left to the good will of a union, a good will which we may have at the moment but which we cannot be guaranteed for the future. I am one who thinks that we should legislate the freedom of the Press. My chief criticism of the amendments is that they do not make an adequate job of it.
      Mr. Hayhoe indicated assent.
      Mr. Magee: I see an hon. Member on the Front Bench opposite nodding agreement with that.
      The Secretary of State has said that it is unreasonable for us to exempt one union from provisions required to apply to all the others, but I do not see why that should be so. When the Labour Government passed the Monopolies and Mergers Act in 1965, they made an exception of the Press, taking the view that the Press constituted a unique case in monopoly situations. It was right to do so in the case of proprietors and it would be right to do so in the case of unions.
      It would be utterly wrong if there were ever one organised body with the power to decide who did and did not write in newspapers. Most of my hon. Friends would say, "What about the abuses of Press freedom by proprietors and editors?". I am no friend of editors and proprietors, as I have said elsewhere in the last few days, but there is one fundamental difference. There is a multiplicity of editors and of proprietors, and if any journalist offends his editor or his editor's boss, there are a thousand other places where he can work and write. But there is only one National Union of Journalists, and to make matters worse that one union is currently refusing to recognise the existence of the other association,

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      the Institute of Journalists, which gives us additional ground to fear that it wishes to become, as editors and proprietors never could become, one unitary body controlling all access to the medium.
      Mr. Corbett: My hon. Friend says that the NUJ refuses to recognise the Institute. Is he aware that the NUJ and the IoJ sit together on the Press Council and on the National Council for the Training of Journalists?
      Mr. Magee: I am well aware of that, but my hon. Friend will know that in discussions on the very issue which we are debating tonight, the NUJ has repeatedly refused to take into account the views of the Institute—[An HON. MEMBER: "That is not so."] It is indeed so.
      There is an alternative view to mine, which I respect. It is that the freedoms that we enjoy in this country, because we do not have a written constitution, are not mainly enshrined in laws or defended by laws, that they depend on custom and convention, on unwritten rules and agreements, and that the best way of safeguarding the freedom of the Press is not by law but by having just such a clear understanding, a gentlemen's agreement, embracing the NUJ and the editors. That is not my view—I am a legislation man—but it is a reasonable alternative view and I believe that it is the view that the Secretary of State holds. If that is so, I would ask him to say two things when he sums up.
      First, if he wishes our Press freedoms to be safeguarded solely by an unwritten gentlemen's agreement between the NUJ and the editors and proprietors, will he use all the power and influence of his office to bring pressure to bear on the parties concerned to come to precisely such an agreement? If he is doing so, will he tell the House what success he is having? Secondly, I ask my right hon. Friend, as he was asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Mr. Walden), to make it unambiguously clear that if the powers that the Bill provides to the NUJ or any other organisation—I am not singling out that union alone—are abused by anyone, he and the Government of which he is a member will not hesitate to bring forward
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      legislation which at the moment, on grounds which I do not share but respect, they are hesitating to introduce. If it is shown by experience that only legislation will safeguard our freedoms, will the Government have no objection in principle to legislating? Will they legislate in such circumstances?
      If my right hon. Friend will give us those assurances I shall vote with him tonight. If he cannot give those assurances I cannot give him my vote.
      Mr. Clemitson: The name of Lord Goodman has been mentioned on a number of occasions in this debate in reference to a letter that appeared in today's copy of The Times in reply to a letter which I and nine of my colleagues signed. Perhaps the House will forgive me if I make one comment on that letter. It is clear that the noble Lord did not meet one basic simple point that we made in our letter—namely, that the effect of the Bill and of the parent Act is to return to a legal position of neutrality in regard to the closed shop. I know that that has been repeated ad nauseam not only during this debate but during preceding debates.
      Those whose only knowledge of this debate has come through the media might be forgiven for thinking that this is a Bill which positively enforces closed shops. The hon. Member for Hampstead (Mr. Finsberg) quoted a leader from a newspaper with which I must confess I am not familiar—namely, the Hampstead and Highgate Express.
      Mr. Finsberg: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like to know that it is printed in his constituency.
      Mr. Clemitson: I am grateful for that piece of knowledge. We live and learn. This is a place in which we can learn many things. If I noted it correctly, I believe the editor of that journal used the phrase "Mr. Foot's closed shop legislation". That clearly implies that the effect of the Bill is to encourage if not to enforce closed shops. The plain fact is that the effect of the Bill and the parent Act is to remove the prohibitions and the difficulties put in the path of closed shops. If that is not returning to a position of neutrality, what is? That

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      must be the position unless the 1971 Act is to be regarded as the embodiment of neutrality.
      When we were debating the removal of closed shop prohibitions and difficulties in the 1971 Act during the passage of the parent Act I do not recall the Opposition objecting in principle to what we were doing. For example, when we were removing Section 7, the ban on pre-entry closed shops in the 1971 Act, I do not remember the Opposition dividing the Committee. I agree that we had our differences on how best to protect the rights of individuals in closed shop situations, but in principle the Opposition did not raise objections even to the pre-entry closed shop. I thought that they had seen the light. I thought that they recognised that, whether or not there is a pre-entry closed shop or any other kind of closed shop, the matter should be left to the parties concerned in any company or industry and that the law had no useful part to play. That was my understanding of the position. The question was not whether closed shops were desirable or not. About that we may differ. The question was whether there should be laws purporting to prohibit them or make it difficult to achieve them.
      The Opposition must make up their minds about closed shops. Do they want to revert to the 1971 Act position in regard to closed shops in general or are they genuinely making out a special case concerning the editorial function? Which is it? Listening to the debates not only today but those which have preceded it in this Chamber and in Committee, I find it difficult to make up my mind. Hon. Members opposite seem to vacillate—if that is not too strong a word—from one position to another. Some of us even have doubts about whether their conversion which we thought was genuine had really occurred. Has a counter-conversion taken place? Were they kidding us all along? It is all very confusing to some of us on this side of the House.
      I do not want to reopen the debate on legislative prohibitions and restrictions on closed shops in general. Let us take it that whatever may be the secret hankerings after the 1971 Act which may well lurk in the breasts of some hon. Members opposite, a genuine case for special treatment has been made. If we accept
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      what I said earlier about the restoration of legal neutrality in regard to closed shops in general, the question is: what has happened since before 1971 to alter the position with regard to newspapers and other media?
      As has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mr. Fletcher), pre-1971, when the legal position was the same as it will be after the passage of this Bill, I do not recall the same outcries from editors which are now reaching our ears. We are told of all kinds of resolutions which have been passed at NUJ conferences since 1971. We are told about the domination of the NUJ by various extremists, by Marxist bodies—presumably not Groucho Marxist bodies. As has been pointed out in many debates, there are not lacking hon. Members opposite who are very quick to wave their NUJ cards metaphorically in our faces when we mention the subject.
      We have been told by my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton (Mr. Magee) in this debate and in an article a few days ago in The Times that the newspaper industry is facing great difficulties and that, therefore, the balance of power has shifted decisively to the NUJ. If journalists' jobs are threatened, we are told, the NUJ will be prepared to take extreme measures to defend the jobs of its members. There is a sense in which this would be very understandable. It is understandable for any trade union to do this. But I think that at the base of my hon. Friend's argument there is a fallacy. The idea that the weaker an industry is, the stronger is the position of a trade union is not borne out by practical experience. It would be more true to say the reverse—that the stronger an industry, the stronger will be the trade union in that industry.
      Mr. Magee: Would my hon. Friend not agree that experience of the last two years has exploded this long-held belief that high levels of unemployment and powerful trade unions cannot co-exist?
      Mr. Clemitson: I am not saying that the argument is wholly true one way or the other. I am saying that one can make out a case for asserting that the stronger an industry the stronger the trade union. One can make out a case for that proposition as readily as one can make out a case for the opposite contention—the

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      one for which my hon. Friend was arguing. However, I do not wish to get involved in the pros and cons of that argument because I do not think it is of the essence of the question before us.
      The Conservatives claim that things have changed since 1971. They may be right. I think that Adam said to Eve "My dear, we live in an age of transition." Things are constantly changing, but we are not tonight dealing with the changing nature of relationships in the industry or with technological changes. The point is what part the law should play in this matter.
      10.30 p.m.
      Our basic contention is that the Industrial Relations Act was wrong in trying to legislate in matters where legislation is not appropriate, and they include the closed shop. Such matters are properly dealt with through voluntary negotiation between the parties concerned. I am not suggesting that there are no problems or difficulties in the industrial relations of newspapers and the other media. There are, but such matters are best dealt with by those concerned, untrammelled by legal difficulties and prohibitions. The purpose of the Bill is to get rid of the paraphernalia of the 1971 Act and to clear the ground.
      If a special case is being made out we must ask why confine a remedy to the editorial aspect of newspaper production. Why not, as the hon. Member for Thanet, East (Mr. Aitken) argued in Committee with commendable logic, extend it to all aspects of newspaper production? Why should we not include the printers? Here history has lessons to teach us. Section 7 of the Industrial Relations Act made void agreements enforcing a pre-entry closed shop. The print unions have operated such a closed shop for many years, and the effect of Section 7 on them has been precisely nil. That section has been a dead letter in that respect.
      That raises one or two questions. If the law has not been effective in the case of the print unions' closed shops why should it be effective in other cases? If such closed shops have operated all these years what evidence is there of real infringement of editorial freedom? If industrial relations problems exist in an
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      industry the best way to deal with them is by non-legislative means, and that is as true of the media as it is of any other industry.
      Those who support the amendments have no monopoly of concern with freedom of the Press or of the media generally. Some of my hon. Friends disagree over the interpretation of the term "freedom of the Press". That freedom is not so much an accomplished fact which must be defended, but more a goal at which we should aim. We could have a less free Press than we have, but obviously we could have far greater freedom too. Just consider the reporting of the debate. The newspapers have devoted far more column inches to presenting the editorial side of the case than to any other aspect of it.
      We should consider the freedom of the Press in a far wider context. Let us devise ways of increasing and developing freedom: freedom of choice: freedom of access; freedom from the present bias of the news media. Let us complete the job of getting rid of the 1971 Act and build a far better and healthier framework of industrial relations.
      Mr. James Tinn: I speak briefly only to express my deep concern about the freedom of access to the Press which my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mr. Fletcher) dismissed too lightly in terms of the contributions to the Press made by secretaries of women's institutes. My hon. Friend was right to say that we were suffering the consequences of the Industrial Relations Act that the previous Conservative Government forced through. I share his opposition to that Act and commitment to its repeal. I shared with my hon. Friend the dreary task of tramping through the Division Lobbies to demonstrate opposition to the Industrial Relations Bill. We on the Government benches are at one in being committed to the repeal of that Act.
      To me the repeal of the Act means a return to the previous situation. My concern is that we may be going back to a different position in which a union may restrict access to a principal medium of communicaion. I for one would not tolerate that situation, and I hope that my right hon. Friend will assure the

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      House that he, too, would not tolerate it. If our worst fears are realised action will have to be taken to safeguard access to the Press for all people, including minorities and people holding all views, and I hope that my right hon. Friend will give that reassurance.
      Mr. Corbett: I am a member of the National Union of Journalists. I was a full member, that membership was transmuted into associate membership and, by resolution of the annual conference, I am now a full member. I have been involved on both sides, as a shop steward—a father of the chapel—and also in management on newspapers and magazines.
      I understand the genuine concern of the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) and his hon. Friends and of some of my hon. Friends. My reason for intervening is to state briefly my experience on the ground and to say what happens when members of the NUJ and the Institute of Journalists are at work. The tragedy of the argument is that it forces people into trenches in which they have no place.
      I see from a pamphlet called "For Freedom of the Press and Broadcasting" one of the authors of which is Alastair Hetherington, the Editor of The Guardian, that on 22nd January at a meeting of the Royal Society of Arts in London Mr. Hetherington is reported as arguing for the involvement of journalists and workers on newspapers in the management and decision-making process, short of editorial decisions. He went on to say:
      "We further accept that, to the extent that staff views may bear on the manner and conduct of a newspaper or broadcasting organisation, employers are within their right in seeking information about the political affiliations and activities of applicants for any journalistic job."
      I am well aware that Mr. Hetherington subsequently withdrew that statement, but a lot has been made about the credentials of Kenneth Morgan, General Secretary of the NUJ, and how far he can be trusted. It is right that hon. Members should not cast aspersions on Mr. Morgan. We also have the right to ask why Mr. Hetherington, having made that statement, then withdrew it. If that is the case, how can we be sure he will not in future put that statement ino practice?
      Mr. Grimond: I have already declared my interest in this matter. The hon. Gentleman should make it clear that Mr. Hetherington withdrew that statement at once in a footnote to a letter written to Mr. Morgan and he then explained the position.
      Mr. Corbett: I accept what the right hon. Gentleman says. But the fact remains that Mr. Hetherington said it and withdrew it subsequently only when challenged. I am delighted that The Guardian's editor withdrew that statement.
      I may make the same point about the Sun newspaper. They devote the best part of page 2—making sure not to disturb the contents of page 3—to this matter. I think I can say without fear of contradiction that the last proprietors to read lectures on the protection of the Press and its standards are the proprietors of News International. They are the most censured by the Press Council of any of the proprietors in Fleet Street. When they are not playing peeping tom on Lord Lambton, they are paying fat cheques to the girl friends of villains to retail their stories, and they are censured by the Press Council for their activities.
      I say with all humility that I sometimes sit in my bath wondering what all the argument and debate is all about. It is my firm belief that it is founded on a total misunderstanding of the position. It has been said by a number of Conservative speakers that the difficulty arose when the NUJ decided to do away with associate membership and when editors were accorded full membership. It has been alleged—and my hon. Friend the Member for Luton, East (Mr. Clemitson) implied this—that somehow or other this altered their position in the NUJ. The fact is that the change of rule did no such thing. Associate members of the union were subject to the rules of the union in the same way as was any other member. That fact appears to have been overlooked. It was said by those who sought to change the rule in the union that it would enable those who previously held associate membership to be able to play a much fuller rôle in NUJ affairs—a union which has been described by the right hon Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) as very democratic.

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      Whether they choose to is up to them. It is for them to decide whether that is the best way to do it.
      10.45 p.m.
      It is suggested that if the Government's proposals are accepted, they will open the floodgates to the NUJ to beat employers round the ears until they declare that they are willing to have a closed shop in every newspaper in that street just at the end of the Strand. But every newspaper along that street already has an agreement providing for a closed shop arrangement of some form—not just with the NUJ but with all the other unions involved.
      Many hon. Members do not understand the difference on the ground between the various forms of closed shop agreements. For example, there are what are known as "pre-entry" closed shops, which are a form of "Catch 22". No one can get a job until he has a union card, and he cannot get a union card until he has a job. That is not the form of closed shop to which the NUJ is committed. It is not the policy to which the union's policy-making body, the annual delegate meeting, gives its support. Instead, it encourages people who are given appointments to become members of the union.
      To hear the Opposition talk, anyone would think that the closed shop was new to Fleet Street. It is not. When the hated Industrial Relations Act was enacted and enforced, not one employer along Fleet Street lifted a finger. Not one of them ran to the National Industrial Relations Court seeking to undo the existing closed shop arrangements.
      At the time, I was working in magazines. I happen to think that they matter. A number of journalists decided to relinquish their membership of the NUJ and to join the Institute of Journalists. This was when the Industrial Relations Act was on the statute book. But there was no strike.
      In this House, we overlook what happens on the ground. It is sensible relations between men and men and men and women at work which matter. In the section of the business in which I was working, the situation was contained
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      and lived with, and both the NUJ and the Institute of Journalists have rights of negotiation with the management.
      That is what has happened in practice, and that is why it is wrong to theorise about these matters. Anyone who has been at the sharp end knows that people have a way of making these situations work. It does no service to industrial relations in a very difficult industry if hon. Members seek to make them worse.
      Nothing in this proposed legislation will open the door to a closed shop. With the experience of the Industrial Relations Act behind us, we know that the right place to take decisions on these matters is on the shop floor, between those who work there and the management. Do not we have enough confidence in trade union members and managements being able to sort out these matters sensibly? I shall vote for confidence in the people who have to run these businesses. They are the people on whom this responsibility should be placed.
      Mr. Foot: We have had an important debate on the freedom of the Press and on the issues associated with it. I do not think that those who have listened to the debate—and I have listened to practically all myself—will deny that. I shall do my best to answer the serious issues raised.
      Perhaps I might begin by remarking, as I have before, in some of the debates on the Bill, that when we embarked on the repeal Bill, which we introduced in March last year, we never thought—certainly I never thought—that we were introducing a Bill which would impinge at all on the freedom of the Press, and that was the view of most London editors for several monthes after we had introduced the Bill last year.
      We introduced that Bill in March for quite a different purpose, and we are persisting with its completion now, because we were seeking—if I may mention so indelicate a matter—to carry out a pledge in our election manifesto.
      We thought it a proper purpose. It is the major purpose of this Bill, but I do not deny for a moment that widespread anxieties have been expressed in the Press. They have been voiced effectively

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      in this House today. It is the Government's business today, and mine particularly, to make sure that we reply to them.
      From the way the debate has gone, most people would agree that the aspect which has given rise to the greatest anxiety is the question of access to the newspapers.
      It has been stressed in the speeches of my hon. Friends the Members for Birmingham, Ladywood (Mr. Walden) and Ashfield (Mr. Marquand) and others. I shall seek to reply to the questions they have put to me on that subject especially, but I hope they will understand when I say that it is extremely difficult for anyone to see how one can deal with the question of access to the Press by legislative action. That has always been the anxiety I have had on the matter.
      When the London editors came to see me, they raised at the beginning the question of contributions to the Press, and of access, but I put to them in turn the question: were they asking that we should take legislative action on this matter? They said that they were not. They were raising other—as they might think associated—matters, but were not asking for legislative action to deal with contributors to the Press, or access to the Press.
      That was the attitude they expressed. I have felt throughout the controversy—and I hope my hon. Friends who press me will also understand—that my anxiety about it is because it is extremely difficult to discover how one would deal legislatively with access to the Press. It would not be merely to legislate to deal with the NUJ or journalists who interfere. It is a much wider question. If we were going to have a law which laid down provisions about access to the Press and percentages of space in the Press which was to be allocated—in one of the letters, a London editor went into this and cited a country in eastern Europe where they have a provision about percentage access to the Press, which I cite merely as an illustration—I do not believe that anyone who looks at the matter seriously can deny that it would be extremely difficult to design.
      It is partly for that reason that I have taken the view that the law cannot deal with these matters. I will come later to the law as it applies to existing or
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      proposed closed shops. It is partly for that reason that I have said—it has been the principal ground upon which we have argued the case, not only the case affecting this part of the Bill, but affecting other parts of the Bill—that we do not think that the law can deal with many of these questions. It is very difficult to see how the law can deal with questions of access. I will come to that very matter when I reply to the direct questions asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield.
      Although we never intended that the Bill should have anything to do especially with the freedom of the Press, and although in that sense the whole of the controversy has broken out much to my surprise, none the less I believe that beneficial by products for the Press have resulted from the whole controversy. Indeed, it may very well be that, as a result of the whole controversy and the encouragement that the Government have given to dealing with this matter by non-legal means, editors, newspapers and the public generally will secure provisions about access to the Press and other questions of freedom which this country has not had since Caxton.
      If that is achieved, who will claim the credit? Modestly, I will claim some of the credit, because it so happens that on Second Reading, without much encouragement from others, although I was not altogether dissuaded on that account, I gave a full-hearted welcome on behalf of the Government to the initiative taken by the National Union of Journalists for a non-legal way of dealing with this matter, which I believe is the best way of dealing with it.
      The Government have played their part in seeking to further that course. If we achieve a protection for editors and the Press which we have never had before in our history and people look for the author or authors, they will have to give credit, certainly, to Mr. Ken Morgan and to the NUJ for the initiative they took in writing to the other parties concerned. The Government, too, will claim some of the credit, because we sought to help the process along.
      How far has this process proceeded? This is the most important question. The hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Smith),

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      who made a very constructive and helpful speech, emphasised his belief that this would be a good approach to the matter and he welcomed the idea that we should proceed with it as fast as we could. We are certainly in favour of having a charter for journalists to cover the many questions that we have been discussing.
      I am glad to say that progress has been made with that charter. I shall now refer to the part played by Mr. Alastair Hetherington, the Editor of The Guardian. I will not go into the controversy of the McCarthy section, where a paragraph was put into his charter and withdrawn immediately in what I think they describe in Fleet Street as a Keith Joseph gesture. However, it was done; that part of it has been withdrawn; and the rest of the document is a most admirable document. I wish to quote a part of the document which refers to the question of access to the Press, which has caused so much anxiety in various quarters of the House. I am sure that those who have followed the matter closely know that this charter for the Press drawn up by Mr. Hetherington, but after consultation with Mr. Ken Morgan, and drawing liberally on the code of conduct of journalists of the NUJ, states on the question of access:
      "We acknowledge that while normal newspaper work and the preparation of news broadcasts must be reserved for trained journalists, access to a newspaper's columns and to broadcasting time ought not to be barred to any citizen or group of citizens. Within the limits of space and time and the requirements of commercial viability, editors ought to give fair representation to opposing and minority points of view. While the NUJ and the IOJ are entitled to protect their members' earnings, restraints must not be placed on the right of editors to publish contributions from a wide range of authors."
      11.0 p.m.
      I certainly agree with Mr. Hetherington's admirably expressed views. I think that Mr. Ken Morgan agrees with those views and is prepared to sign them and there is every possibility that he will persuade his union to be prepared to support them.
      Of course, that is only one of many provisions in that charter, as hon. Members who have followed the matter closely will know. If that charter were to be signed by all the parties concerned—the proprietors, the editors, the National Union of Journalists and the Institute of
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      Journalists—or if a meeting were called, under some independent chairman, at which they decided to draw up this charter, that would be a very fine step forward. That is what I hope we will secure. If we move in that direction, I think that we will move towards solving some of the difficult problems which hon. Members have been talking about tonight.
      Mr. Cyril Smith: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what evidence he has to support the view that Mr. Morgan and the NUJ are willing to sign such a document?
      Mr. Foot: All the discussions that I have had on this subject with Mr. Ken Morgan persuade me that he is ready to sign it and that he thinks that he has a good chance of persuading his union to sign it. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] We are trying to make progress. I do not know whether hon. Gentlemen opposite are. I am sure that the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Smith) is eager to see progress made in this direction, because that is what he said in his speech.
      Let me go further and repeat what I said to the editors of the London papers when they came to see me. It was the last thing that I said in the conversation with them. I said that I hoped that they would proceed along this line of having discussions to try to draw up such a charter or document. Because they had been urging upon me some form of legislative support for it and I had argued that that was very difficult, I also said that if they discovered in these negotiations or discussions that a document of this kind could secure the support of all parties and that those parties would wish to have it incorporated in some kind of law or code of practice—we had discussed that possibility—the Government would certainly be prepared to consider it. I said that it would be difficult to deal with the matter by legislation but that we would consider it. If the parties concerned said that they wished to see it backed by some form of enactment in a code of practice, we would be prepared to consider that possibility. Indeed, it might be a possible way of adding to the authority which such a document might possess.
      Mr. Aitken: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this unsigned charter is

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      unlikely to be an adequate safeguard, for the good reason that Mr. Ken Morgan, when asked to give similar assurances in similar contexts before, has been able to get the votes of only four of the 24 members of his executive to back him up?
      Mr. Foot: I shall not waste much time discussing the matter with him, but the hon. Gentleman got the figures wrong. He got the vote wrong. He got the facts wrong. He could not even read what was in the NUJ's own newspaper on the subject. He was wrong about the pressures on the editors, about the blacking. He will see in the Journalist that the letter to Mr. Hetherington was not rejected by the union's executive but was endorsed by 14 votes to 10, contrary to what the hon. Gentleman told the House. Therefore we must treat with grave suspicion any figures that come from the hon. Gentleman.
      I am trying to secure progress to overcome these problems. But I hope that the House will not regard it as too controversial on my part if I try to defend myself and the Government against some of the accusations that are made. I say that particularly because I do not wish to do anything to allow the progress towards the achievement of such a charter to be upset, as it could be by some of the actions and suggestions made by those who write to the newspapers and give their views on these subjects.
      A reference has already been made to the letter in The Times today from Lord Goodman. Lord Goodman happens to be an old friend of mine. [An HON. MEMBER: "He is everybody's friend."] I do not mean anything other than what I am saying. He is a very good friend of mine. But when he gets hold of the wrong end of the stick the confusion he can cause is positively Brobdingnagian, or perhaps I should say gargantuan. Some of us remember what happened when he went to Rhodesia. He got that one wrong.
      I shall quote from his letter that part which is the foundation of the whole of the rest of it, the shifting sand on which Lord Goodman took his stand in The Times this morning:
      "If a closed shop operates, it means that anyone who does not wish to join the union, or is not allowed to join the union or is expelled
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      from the union cannot write for any newspaper or periodical."
      If that were true, it would be the most damning indictment of the whole proposition. It is not true at all. There is not the slightest foundation for any such suggestion. A closed shop agreement between employers and employees does not affect those who are not employees, and the contributors to the Press are not employees.
      Lord Goodman's proposition falls on a second count. He is suggesting that a closed shop means that people outside cannot write for the paper. The Guardian has a closed shop, but none of the difficulties or inexorable consequences which Lord Goodman seeks to describe has happened. People have access to The Guardian, even though it has a closed shop. My hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. Corbett) rightly pointed out that a number of other newspapers in Fleet Street have closed shops, but that does not produce the consequences which Lord Goodman described. The whole of his case is based upon that misconception. It is very important for us that such misconceptions should be removed.
      Similar misleading statements have been made by those who have been responsible for the dissemination of the pamphlet to which references have been made during our debates, a pamphlet issued by the editors, and signed by Mr. David Astor, Mr. Denis Hamilton, and Mr. Alastair Hetherington—not quite so brazen a misrepresentation of the facts as Lord Goodman has been guilty of, but bad enough in all conscience. After all, the editors are supposed to know what the situation is. Considering that the editors have produced this booklet, I am not surprised that they can mislead an innocent fellow like Lord Goodman.
      The London editors, in their booklet, state:
      "The editor, under the Bill, would have no choice but to be a member of the union (even the NUJ now gives him a choice) if a closed shop has been negotiated".
      It is not true. It ignores the fact that the Bill enables a closed shop to be negotiated which does not apply to editors or which allows them to be members of another union.

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      The next sentence of the booklet states:
      "Should he"—
      that is, an editor—
      "disobey an NUJ ruling and be expelled, then in law he could be made to forfeit his job too: non-union members could not be employed".
      Again, the legislation says no such thing. It is the editor's contract of employment, not the Bill, which requires him to join a union if his employer has made a closed shop agreement. Nothing in the legislation or in a closed shop agreement states that non-union members cannot be employed. Government amendments have facilitated non-membership.
      The booklet is wrong in those particulars, but it is wrong in many other particulars. It is misleading in many respects, and contradicts itself in many respects, and yet it is supposed to be a guide to what the Bill means. The editors have produced an extraordinary combination of bad reporting, bad law, bad temper and bilious polemic. That is not a good contribution to securing what we want to secure—negotiations on the charter. Such a document as the booklet produced just prior to a debate like this can hardly be the best way for the London editors to contribute to getting agreement for the discussion of such a charter.
      However, I am glad to say that, despite the fact that the editors produced this document—which they should have had the decenecy to hand over to a competent sub-editor before publishing—the National Union of Journalists and Mr. Ken Morgan have replied, turning the other cheek, contrary to the belligerent attitude which others have accused them of, saying that they still want to proceed with the discussions in order to make a proper attempt to secure an agreement along the lines we have suggested, namely, an agreement which, in my judgment, and in the judgment of people who have studied these matters, can protect editors and the freedom of the Press much better than any formal legal arrangement.
      My hon. Friends have pressed for further consideration to be given to the matter of access. I am willing to probe the matter to see how much further we can go. I hope that they understand
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      that everything I say is bound to be governed by the belief that I have enunciated, that it is extremely difficult to devise legal methods of dealing with these questions. I have the support of my hon. Friends on this, I think—certainly the support of my hon. Friend the Member for Ladywood, I think the support of my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield and, in descending order, conceivably the support of my hon. Friend the Member for Leyton (Mr. Magee)—but I believe that he declared his interest somewhere else before coming to this debate.
      All my hon. Friends, at any rate, agree that we cannot deal with this question by attempting to ban the closed shop, as is attempted, but not very well attempted, in the amendments. They all agree that it is difficult to find a method of protecting access. Nevertheless, they ask what will happen. Let us suppose we do not get a charter. Let us suppose the talks do not proceed or that they are sabotaged by one side or the other. My hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield asked whether I would give an undertaking that we would take some other action if the charter were rejected by a conference of the journalists. It would only be fair to say that other people might reject the charter as well. I could not pick out the NUJ as being the most likely body to sabotage such proceedings. As I have said, the NUJ in its own code of conduct has come much nearer to accepting this kind of code than any other section of the newspaper business. I do not think that there should be too much difficulty from that direction.
      My hon. Friend's question is what happens if the negotiations for the charter break down; if the journalists tear up their code of conduct, if they proceed to take all the horrific actions described; and if all the horrors that have been outlined occur. What might happen if closed shops are established and ruthlessly enforced up and down the country? What would the Government do if all those things were to occur? I agree with my hon. Friend that if that were to occur the Government would have to take action.
      Despite all of the difficulties, and they are great, the Government would have to take action if such events occurred,

      531
      because it would be impossible to carry on democratic life successfully if the vast majority of the people were denied access to the newspapers and to the other forms of public print. Before I had ever seen my hon. Friends on the subject I had written to many of my hon. Friends. I will not quote the whole letter, which many may have received, which I have sent out on this subject to those who expressed the doubts of editors. The last paragraph reads:
      "As you know, labour relations in the newspaper industry are within the terms of reference of the Royal Commission on the Press. We have made clear that we shall consider carefully any recommendations that the Commission may make, whether they are for legislation or otherwise; and that we cannot condone any actions which do amount to a threat to Press freedom. We are not, therefore, ruling out future legislation should the situation which editors such as Mr. Whitten"—
      that was the Editor of the Celtic Press who had raised the matter—
      "envisage actually come to pass. But the impossibilities of enforcing legal bans on the closed shop, even if it were appropriate to impose them, have already been demonstrated—and that is the only point on which our present legislation has any bearing."
      The Government are approaching the whole question in a serious manner. It is not because we have not examined all the different possibilities put forward in the amendments. We have examined all of them carefully, as I promised the London editors and the others we would. I also promised them, when I saw them at the beginning, that we would continue to examine any proposals that were put forward in what I hope is an intelligent manner, without any closed minds.
      We have no commitments which would prevent us from making any settlement which we think is in the best interests of the freedom of the Press. I believe that anyone who examines this will discover that, first, the question of legislation to ensure free access is a difficult matter to secure and, second, and even more telling—I am glad to have all my hon. Friends with me on this—that the specific proposals of the Opposition, or I might add, of the London editors, seeking to insert a comprehensive clause defining people in the newspaper industry who would have a right not to belong to a trade union according to the old 1971 Act formula,
      532
      is worse than useless. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield that such a specific clause, and the Opposition amendments come near to it, designed to say to the NUJ, "We are to exclude you from having what you think to be your legitimate rights", so far from assisting freedom of the Press could impose the gravest injuries. It could cause provocation.
      Therefore, I argue tonight as I have argued with many people who have come to see me about this matter, including the London editors. I respect their desires. They are not only fighting for their own rights but for much larger rights than those. I fully appreciate that. I have argued with them that what we propose as a Government has been more carefully thought through than what they propose, and has a better chance of working than what they propose. I have argued that what we propose has a better chance of being more embracing. We therefore appeal to the House of Commons and to the other place if by any mischance those there imagine that they should poke their lordly noses into this matter—
      Mr. Churchill: As a member of a trade union representing journalists, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will deny that it is the declared policy of the NUJ conference to bring about a closed shop and a situation in which no one, either in Fleet Street or the provincial Press, will earn his bread and butter as a journalist or a freelance unless he is a member of the NUJ? Will the right hon. Gentleman further deny that the Bill that he is putting to Parliament tonight is the vehicle which will give the NUJ the power for this closed shop?
      Mr. Foot: I deny the formulation of the hon. Gentleman absolutely, and if he had listened to the debate he might have learned something.
      In conclusion, I deny absolutely also that we have done anything to interfere with the freedom of the Press, either overtly or surreptitiously. We are not seeking to do anything of the sort. We are seeking to find the best way through this matter in future. As I said at the beginning, I believe that if we pursue

      533
      the course we have laid out we may secure, for editors in particular and the Press generally, a protection of freedom which we have never had in the past. I shall not go again into the whole question of proprietors and the rest, but the argument is a good one nevertheless. If one goes back to the past one appreciates that there have been many interferences with freedom.
      We believe that if we can secure this kind of charter, signed by all the interested parties in the newspaper profession and business, we shall have made a great stride to a new kind of freedom, perhaps better than we have had previously. We seek to do that.
      But I say to hon. Members that while we have been concerned primarily in this debate—necessarily, because of the amendments, the subjects and the antecedents of the debate—with the freedom of the Press, this Bill is concerned also with other freedoms which are as important as the freedom of the Press. The freedom of the Press is of paramount importance; but the freedom of people to associate and combine is of paramount importance too.
      I say to the London editors that if they had fought for the freedom of others with a tenth of the ardour with which they have fought for their own, we should have a world that was much more free than it is at present, and we should have avoided many of the difficulties that we have had in industrial relations over the years.
      I can make a recommendation to the right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior). The best contribution he could make to our proposals, however he may press his amendments—I am not urging him one way or the other about that—would be to say, as I hope he will, how strongly he welcomes the NUJ proposals, the Government's proposals, and Mr. Hetherington's proposals in the sphere of this kind of charter of freedom. That is the real way to save the freedom of the Press in this country.
      Mr. Prior: This has been a long and, for the most part, extremely interesting debate. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State will not be surprised if I say that I found, as I think a good
      534
      many of my hon. Friends will have found, that his speech was very disappointing indeed. After all, the Second Reading took place on 3rd December. Many objections were raised about this particular measure on the previous Bill, which became the 1974 Act. All that the right hon. Gentleman has been able to do tonight is say that he hopes very much that a charter or code of practice can be signed between the NUJ and other interested bodies. That is not treating Parliament with the respect it deserves after all these weeks and months of discussion. He has no undertaking that such an agreement will be signed or that if it is it will be honoured.
      What is done now in the name of Mr. Morgan—various tributes have rightly been paid to him—can be overturned in a few weeks. There would then be no protection for the freedom of the Press. If the right hon. Gentleman had said that our amendments were defective but that some provision for a code of practice should be written into the Bill to guarantee the point about access and to ensure that non-union work was not blacked, we should have been able to go along with him. But he has given no such assurance. He has rested his case entirely on the false grounds, also quoted by the hon. Member for Coventry, North-West (Mr. Edelman), that we are trying to return to the Industrial Relations Act. In fact, we have tried in our amendments to cover those two points as best we could.
      Lord Hailsham once told me that with all his experience as a lawyer the only part of a Bill he could be sure of getting right was the word "the" at the beginning. Anyone with any experience knows that parliamentary draftsmen will find something wrong with almost any amendment, and we are prepared to withdraw ours if better ones are put in their place. But there should be legislation now: it should not be left to a later stage.
      We do not believe that there will be a sudden and dramatic change of attitude by the NUJ about the closed shop or the restriction of access, but it could go on slowly and inexorably until it was too late to turn the clock back. The duty

      535
      of the House is to legislate in advance. If this Bill is not the right way to do it, will the right hon. Gentleman introduce another Bill? It is not good enough to wait for the report of the Royal Commission: that will probably take years.
      The right hon. Gentleman claims that the position of editors is absolutely safeguarded and there is no question of their having to join a union. That is also claimed in this book, "For Freedom of the Press and Broadcasting." But suppose that an NUJ chapel which was going for a closed shop told the management that unless the editor joined the union, they would strike. What happens in a case like that? The management—that is the paper—can resist and go out of business or it can give way. The editor can join or he can resign and another editor can take over who is a member of the NUJ.
      11.30 p.m.
      Both the right hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friend the Minister of State may have been strictly within the meaning of the law in everything that they have said, but the Minister of State did not deal with the point raised by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Southport (Mr. Percival) on unfair dismissal, whereby a strong union can say to the management "If you do not accept that we have sole bargaining rights in the works or in the chapel we shall go on strike until you have dismissed all those who refuse to join the union". That is the sort of situation with which Parliament has to deal.
      It is all very well for the hon. Member for Darlington (Mr. Fletcher) to argue
      that there are 5 million people already in closed shops. Of course there are. It may well be that that is the right arrangement for a great many industries in Britain. However, we are not dealing with an ordinary commodity but with the freedom of the Press. That is far more vital and quite different from anything else.
      I say to my right hon. and hon. Friends that I do not believe that we have yet had the sort of cast-iron guarantees that Parliament should have before it passes this legislation. We know that our amendments may not be perfect, but the only way to get good amendments put into the Bill, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead (Mr. Finsberg) said, is to ensure that amendments are made and then to leave it to the Government to come back at a later stage and produce something more effective than they have so far produced.
      When hon. Members come to examine what the right hon. Gentleman has said I do not think that they will be able to accept that they have been given a sufficient guarantee that there will be free access of non-union members to the Press at all times. That is what Parliament has to safeguard. I hope that my right hon. and hon. Friends and hon. Members of other parties will support us in the Division Lobby tonight.
      Question put, That the amendment be made:—
      The House divided: Ayes 269, Noes 298.

      Division No. 91.]

      AYES

      [11.32 p.m.

      Adley, Robert

      Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent)

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Aitken, Jonathan

      Bradford, Rev Robert

      Cockcroft, John

      Alison, Michael

      Braine, Sir Bernard

      Cooke, Robert (Bristol W)

      Amery, Rt Hon Julian

      Brittan, Leon

      Cope, John

      Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne)

      Brotherton, Michael

      Cordle, John H.

      Awdry, Daniel

      Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

      Cormack, Patrick

      Baker, Kenneth

      Bryan, Sir Paul

      Corrie, John

      Banks, Robert

      Buchanan-Smith, Alick

      Costain, A. P.

      Beith, A. J.

      Buck, Antony

      Craig, Rt Hon W. (Belfast E)

      Bell, Ronald

      Budgen, Nick

      Crowder F. P.

      Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay)

      Bulmer, Esmond

      Davies, Rt Hon J. (Knutsford)

      Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham)

      Burden, F. A.

      Dean, Paul (N Somerset)

      Benyon, W.

      Carlisle, Mark

      Dodsworth, Geoffrey

      Berry, Hon Anthony

      Carr, Rt Hon Robert

      Douglas-Hamilton, Lord Jame

      Biffen, John

      Carson, John

      Drayson, Burnaby

      Biggs-Davison, John

      Chalker, Mrs Lynda

      du Cann, Rt Hon Edward

      Blaker, Peter

      Channon, Paul

      Durant, Tony

      Body, Richard

      Churchill, W. S

      Dykes, Hugh

      Boscawen, Hon Robert

      Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton)

      Eden, Rt Hon Sir John

      Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown)

      Clark, William (Croydon S)

      Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

      Elliott, Sir William

      Lamont, Norman

      Rees-Davies, W. R.

      Emery, Peter

      Lane, David

      Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts)

      Eyre, Reginald

      Langford-Holt, Sir John

      Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex)

      Fairbairn, Nicholas

      Latham, Michael (Melton)

      Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

      Fairgrieve, Russell

      Lawrence, Ivan

      Ridley, Hon Nicholas

      Farr, John

      Lawson, Nigel

      Ridsdale, Julian

      Fell, Anthony

      Lester, Jim (Beeston)

      Rifkind, Malcolm

      Finsberg, Geoffrey

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey

      Fisher, Sir Nigel

      Lloyd, Ian

      Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)

      Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

      Loveridge, John

      Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

      Fookes, Miss Janet

      Luce, Richard

      Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

      Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd)

      McAdden, Sir Stephen

      Ross, William (Londonderry)

      Fox, Marcus

      McCrindle, Robert

      Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

      Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St)

      McCusker, H.

      Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire)

      Fry, Peter

      Macfarlane, Neil

      Royle, Sir Anthony

      Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

      MacGregor, John

      Sainsbury, Tim

      Gardiner, George (Reigate)

      Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham)

      Scott, Nicholas

      Gardner, Edward (S Fylde)

      McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury)

      Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)

      Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham)

      Madel, David

      Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)

      Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

      Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

      Shelton, William (Streatham)

      Glyn, Dr Alan

      Marten, Neil

      Shepherd, Colin

      Godber, Rt Hon Joseph

      Mates, Michael

      Shersby, Michael

      Goodhart, Philip

      Mather, Carol

      Silvester, Fred

      Goodhew, Victor

      Maude, Angus

      Sims, Roger

      Goodlad, Alastair

      Maudling, Rt Hon Reginald

      Sinclair, Sir George

      Gorst, John

      Mawby, Ray

      Skeet, T. H. H.

      Gow, Ian (Eastbourne)

      Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

      Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)

      Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry)

      Mayhew, Patrick

      Smith, Dudley (Warwick)

      Grant, Anthony (Harrow C)

      Meyer, Sir Anthony

      Speed, Keith

      Gray, Hamish

      Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove)

      Spence, John

      Grieve, Percy

      Mills, Peter

      Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)

      Griffiths, Eldon

      Miscampbell, Norman

      Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)

      Grimond, Rt Hon J.

      Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

      Sproat, Iain

      Grist, Ian

      Moate, Roger

      Stainton, Keith

      Grylls, Michael

      Molyneaux, James

      Stanbrook, Ivor

      Hall, Sir John

      Monro, Hector

      Stanley, John

      Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

      Montgomery, Fergus

      Steel, David (Roxburgh)

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Moore, John (Croydon C)

      Steen, Anthony (Wavertree)

      Hampson, Dr Keith

      More, Jasper (Ludlow)

      Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)

      Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye)

      Morgan, Geraint

      Stokes, John

      Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss

      Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral

      Tapsell, Peter

      Hastings, Stephen

      Morris, Michael (Northampton S)

      Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)

      Havers, Sir Michael

      Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

      Tebbit, Norman

      Hawkins, Paul

      Morrison, Peter (Chester)

      Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret

      Hayhoe, Barney

      Mudd, David

      Thomas, Rt Hon P. (Hendon S)

      Heseltine, Michael

      Neave, Airey

      Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon)

      Hicks, Robert

      Nelson, Anthony

      Townsend, Cyril D.

      Higgins, Terence L.

      Neubert, Michael

      Trotter, Neville

      Holland, Philip

      Newton, Tony

      Tugendhat, Christopher

      Hooson, Emlyn

      Normanton, Tom

      van Straubenzee, W. R.

      Hordern, Peter

      Nott, John

      Vaughan, Dr Gerard

      Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

      Onslow, Cranley

      Viggers, Peter

      Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)

      Oppenheim, Mrs Sally

      Wainwright, Richard (Colne V)

      Howells, Geraint (Cardigan)

      Osborn, John

      Wakeham, John

      Hunt, John

      Page, John (Harrow West)

      Walder, David (Clitheroe)

      Hurd Douglas

      Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)

      Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester)

      Hutchison, Michael Clark

      Paisley, Rev Ian

      Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek

      Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

      Pardoe, John

      Wall, Patrick

      Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)

      Parkinson, Cecil

      Walters, Dennis

      James, David

      Pattie, Geoffrey

      Warren, Kenneth

      Jessel, Toby

      Penhaligon, David

      Weatherill, Bernard

      Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead)

      Percival, Ian

      Wells, John

      Jones, Arthur (Daventry)

      Peyton, Rt Hon John

      Whitelaw, Rt Hon William

      Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith

      Pink, R. Bonner

      Wiggin, Jerry

      Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

      Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch

      Winterton, Nicholas

      Kershaw, Anthony

      Price, David (Eastleigh)

      Wood, Rt Hon Richard

      Kilfedder, James

      Prior, Rt Hon James

      Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton)

      Kimball, Marcus

      Pym, Rt Hon Francis

      King, Evelyn (South Dorset)

      Raison, Timothy

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      King, Tom (Bridgwater)

      Rathbone, Tim

      Mr. Adam Butler and

      Kitson, Sir Timothy

      Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal)

      Mr. Spencer Le Marchant.

      NOES

      Abse, Leo

      Bagier, Gordon A. T.

      Bishop, E. S.

      Allaun, Frank

      Bain, Mrs Margaret

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      Anderson, Donald

      Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

      Boardman, H.

      Archer, Peter

      Barnett, Rt Hon Joel

      Booth, Albert

      Armstrong, Ernest

      Bates, Alf

      Boothroyd, Miss Betty

      Ashley, Jack

      Bean, R. E.

      Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur

      Ashton, Joe

      Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood

      Boyden, James (Bish Auck)

      Atkins, Ronald (Praston N)

      Bennett, Andrew(Stockport N)

      Bray, Dr Jeremy

      Atkinson, Norman

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Bradley, Tom

      538

      539

      Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

      Hardy, Peter

      Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King

      Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)

      Harper, Joseph

      Newens, Stanley

      Brown, Ronald (Hackney S)

      Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

      Noble, Mike

      Buchan, Norman

      Hart, Rt Hon Judith

      Ogden, Eric

      Buchanan, Richard

      Hatton, Frank

      O'Halloran, Michael

      Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green)

      Hayman Mrs Helene

      O'Malley, Rt Hon Brian

      Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)

      Healey, Rt Hon Denis

      Orbach, Maurice

      Campbell, Ian

      Heffer, Eric S.

      Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

      Canavan, Dennis

      Henderson, Douglas

      Ovenden, John

      Cant, R. B.

      Hooley, Frank

      Owen, Dr David

      Carmichael, Neil

      Horam, John

      Padley, Walter

      Carter, Ray

      Howell, Denis (B'ham, Sm H)

      Palmer, Arthur

      Carter-Jones, Lewis

      Hoyle, Douglas (Nelson)

      Park, George

      Cartwright, John

      Huckfield, Les

      Parker, John

      Castle, Rt Hon Barbara

      Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey)

      Parry, Robert

      Clemitson, Ivor

      Hughes, Mark (Durham)

      Pendry, Tom

      Cocks, Michael (Bristol S)

      Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N)

      Perry, Ernest

      Cohen, Stanley

      Hughes, Roy (Newport)

      Phipps, Dr Colin

      Coleman, Donald

      Hunter, Adam

      Prentice, Rt Hon Reg

      Concannon, J. D.

      Irvine, Rt Hon Sir A. (Edge Hill)

      Prescott, John

      Conlan, Bernard

      Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford)

      Price C. (Lewisham W)

      Cook, Robin F. (Edin C)

      Jackson, Colin (Brighouse)

      Price, William (Rugby)

      Corbett, Robin

      Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln)

      Radice, Giles

      Cox, Thomas (Tooting)

      Janner, Greville

      Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S)

      Craigen, J. M. (Maryhill)

      Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

      Richardson, Miss Jo

      Crawford, Douglas

      Jeger, Mrs Lena

      Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

      Cryer, Bob

      Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

      Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)

      Cunningham, G. (Islington S)

      John, Brynmor

      Robertson, John (Paisley)

      Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh)

      Johnson, James (Hull West)

      Roderick, Caerwyn

      Dalyell, Tam

      Johnson, Walter (Derby S)

      Rodgers, George (Chorley)

      Davidson, Arthur

      Jones, Alec (Rhondda)

      Rodgers, William (Stockton)

      Davies, Bryan (Enfield N)

      Jones, Barry (East Flint)

      Rooker, J. W.

      Davies, Denzil (Llanelli)

      Jones, Dan (Burnley)

      Roper, John

      Davies, Ifor (Gower)

      Judd, Frank

      Rose, Paul B.

      Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)

      Kaufman, Gerald

      Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilm'nock)

      Deakins, Eric

      Kelley, Richard

      Rowlands, Ted

      Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

      Kerr, Russell

      Ryman, John

      de Freitas, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

      Kilroy-Silk, Robert

      Sandelson, Neville

      Dell, Rt Hon Edmund

      Kinnock, Neil

      Sedgemore, Brian

      Dempsey, James

      Lambie, David

      Selby, Harry

      Doig, Peter

      Lamborn, Harry

      Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South)

      Dormand, J. D.

      Lamond, James

      Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne)

      Douglas-Mann, Bruce

      Latham, Arthur (Paddington)

      Shore, Rt Hon Peter

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Short, Rt Hon E. (Newcastle C)

      Dunn, James A.

      Lee, John

      Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)

      Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

      Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)

      Sillars, James

      Eadie, Alex

      Lever, Rt Hon Harold

      Silverman, Julius

      Edelman, Maurice

      Lewis, Arthur (Newham N)

      Skinner, Dennis

      Edge, Geoff

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Small, William

      Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE)

      Lipton, Marcus

      Snape, Peter

      Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun)

      Litterick, Tom

      Spearing, Nigel

      Ellis, Tom (wrexham)

      Lomas, Kenneth

      Spriggs, Leslie

      English, Michael

      Loyden, Eddie

      Stallard, A. W.

      Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen)

      Luard, Evan

      Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)

      Evans, Ioan (Aberdare)

      Lyon, Alexander (York)

      Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham)

      Evans John (Newton)

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)

      Stoddart, David

      Ewing, Harry (Stirling)

      Mabon, Dr J. Dickson

      Stott, Roger

      Ewing, Mrs Winifred (Moray)

      McCartney, Hugh

      Strang, Gavin

      Faulds, Andrew

      McElhone, Frank

      Strauss, Rt Hon G. R.

      Fernyhough, Rt Hon E.

      MacFarquhar, Roderick

      Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley

      Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

      McGuire, Michael (Ince)

      Swain, Thomas

      Fitt, Gerard (Belfast W)

      Mackenzie, Gregor

      Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

      Flannery, Martin

      Mackintosh, John P.

      Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

      Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

      McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)

      Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlingon)

      McNamara, Kevin

      Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)

      Foot, Rt Hon Michael

      Madden, Max

      Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)

      Ford, Ben

      Marks, Kenneth

      Thompson, George

      Forrester, John

      Marquand, David

      Thorne, Stan (Preston South)

      Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin)

      Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

      Tierney, Sydney

      Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd)

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Tinn, James

      Freeson, Reginald

      Mason, Rt Hon Roy

      Tomlinson, John

      Garrett, John (Norwich S)

      Meacher, Michael

      Torney, Tom

      Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)

      Mendelson, John

      Urwin, T. W.

      George, Bruce

      Mikardo, Ian

      Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)

      Gilbert, Dr John

      Millan, Bruce

      Walden, Brian (B'ham, L'dyw'd)

      Ginsburg, David

      Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)

      Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

      Golding, John

      Miller, Mrs Millie (Ilford N)

      Walker, Terry (Kingswood)

      Gould, Bryan

      Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen)

      Ward, Michael

      Gourlay, Harry

      Molloy, William

      Watkins, David

      Graham, Ted

      Moonman, Eric

      Watkinson, John

      Grant John (Islington C)

      Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

      Watt, Hamish

      Grocott, Bruce

      Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

      Weetch, Ken

      Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)

      Moyle, Roland

      Weitzman, David

      Hamling, William

      Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

      Wellbeloved, James

      540

      541

      Welsh, Andrew

      Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)

      Woof, Robert

      White, Frank R. (Bury)

      Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford)

      Wrigglesworth, Ian

      White, James (Pollok)

      Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

      Young, David (Bolton E)

      Whitehead, Phillip

      Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

      Whitlock, William

      Wilson, Rt Hon H. (Huyton)

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      Wigley, Dafydd

      Wilson, William (Coventry SE)

      Mr. James Hamilton and

      Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

      Wise, Mrs Audrey

      Mr. Laurie Pavitt.

      Williams, Alan (Swansea W)

      Woodall, Alec

      Question accordingly negatived.

    Clause 2

      AMENDMENTS OF THE PRINCIPAL ACT
      11.45 p.m.
      Mr. Brittan: I beg to move, Amendment No. 7, in page 2, line 45, leave out from 'have' to end of line 47 and insert
      'been identified as such by the parties to the agreement or arrangement by reference to any characteristic or circumstance they have in common'.
      The amendment relates to the definition of a union membership agreement. It is of considerable importance because in effect it is the definition of a union membership agreement which defines the permissible extent of the closed shop.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Oscar Murton): Order. Will hon. and right hon. Members who do not wish to participate in the debate please leave the Chamber quietly.
      Mr. Brittan: Only if the agreement comes within the definition of a union membership agreement in the Bill does the closed shop have legal effect in the sense that the dismissal of a person covered by it has to be regarded as fair.
      Today, in attempting to mitigate the effects of the closed shop, we have followed several routes, all of which have been rejected and voted down by the Government. We have attempted to prevent the closed shop in journalism, and we have attempted to prevent the dismissal of a person who is not a union member from being reckoned as fair. All that has been to no avail.
      In Committee the Government accepted that there was a problem, and they sought to remedy it by introducing amendments at a late stage with very little notice. Those amendments were passed in Committee, but we made clear that in view of the haste with which they were put forward it would be necessary to return to the matter on Report. I have moved an amendment to one of the Government's
      542
      amendments which, on reflection, we think will make it more likely that the effect at which the Government are aiming will be achieved.
      One reason for the group of amendments put forward by the Government in Committee was to make clear that it was possible to have a closed shop agreement whereby the parties agreed to exclude from the scope of the agreement certain people or groups of people who might otherwise have been included within its terms. I will not quote from the Committee proceedings, but the Minister of State will remember what he said. The purpose of those amendments was to enable persons and groups of people to be excluded from the scope of union membership agreements.
      Attention has so far been given to the situation of journalists in relation to the Bill, but there are other groups concerned about the operation of a union membership agreement in the fullest sense of the word. Among them are professional engineers in local government and water services. They have objections to being included in the scope of the union membership agreement with all the other local government officials. Their first objection is that the principal chief officers of local authorities, including directors of technical services, such as borough engineers and so on, act in a quasi-employer rôle to many of the staff in a local authority and therefore cannot exercise a proper management function if they are forced to belong to a trade union, to whose disciplinary procedures they would be subject in a closed shop situation.
      The second matter for concern is that professional officers in local government, particularly chartered engineers, are subject to a code of professional conduct. The code of conduct for engineers provides that they will do nothing to endanger public health or public safety, which is a real protection for the public. But this could create a major conflict for

      543
      water engineers if they are forced to belong to a trade union which advocated action in direct opposition to their code of professional conduct. Similarly, in the case of chief executives of local authorities, objection arises to their being compelled by union membership agreements to belong to the same union as all other employees.
      Mr. Walter Johnson: Will the hon. Gentleman take account of the fact that for many years in the transport industry one union, the Transport Salaried Staffs Association, of which I happen to be an honorary national officer, has catered for all staff from clerks to senior officers? The way we deal with the situation is that officers and senior management staff have been allowed to have their own individual branch, but they still are members of the same organisation. It presents no problem whatever.
      Mr. Brittan: I appreciate that that is the case in that industry and it is one way of dealing with the situation. It may not always be appropriate. As I understand the situation, amendments introduced by the Government in Committee were designed to deal with the situation I have described to make it more possible for there to be a union membership agreement which possibly excludes certain classes.
      There are similar objections raised by local authority chief executives and by members of the steel industry's management association who have been pressed by the Iron and Steel Trades Confederation to belong to a certain union. The matter has also been raised in the councils of engineering institutions.
      The question now to be considered is whether those bodies have benefited from the change in legislation. We consider that there is room for doubt whether any further definition is helpful. It is highly arguable that any such further definition makes the position worse. By saying that more informal agreements, with exceptions, can amount to a union membership agreement binding in law, we are making clear that those covered by an agreement can be dismissed with impunity, whereas before the provision was introduced there was doubt whether such looser arrangements were covered by the definition at all. Of course, if
      544
      they were not covered by the definition, the whole arrangement might not constitute a union membership agreement, and then no one purporting to be covered by it could be dismissed fairly under the provisions of the Act.
      Against that must be weighed the argument of the Government that by having a definition of a union membership agreement which permits more flexible arrangements to count as such an agreement, such arrangements are encouraged and a larger group of people in this more flexible type of arrangement will be excluded from the closed shop or permitted to remain members of a minority union. That was the case put forward by the Government in favour of their amendment. It is with that in view that the Government introduced their amendment. In this further amendment, the Opposition suggest that this change is required because we do not believe that the Government's amendment achieves what it sets out to do.
      As the Government's amendment appears in the Bill, it reads:
      "It is hereby declared that for the purposes of this Act employees are to be treated as belonging to the same class if they have any characteristics in common or can be identified by reference to any circumstances common to them."
      The wording is mandatory, and there is a risk that it will have the opposite effect from that intended. It appears to take discretion away from the parties.
      The intention of the amendment was supposed to be to allow the parties to exclude certain categories of employees from a closed shop, but here it is provided that persons with any characteristics in common are to be included within the same class. That is bound to encourage pressure to extend the scope of a closed shop agreement to all employees who have any characteristics or circumstances in common. The case of the NUJ and the editors is a good example. The question which would have to be considered in any negotiation is whether editors should be included in a union membership agreement.
      The argument against is that editors are doing a significantly different job. They are wholly responsible for bringing out the paper and, therefore, should not be included in the agreement. But, as this provision stands, it would reinforce the

      545
      contrary militant argument. It appears to say that they should be treated in exactly the same way, because clearly editors have many characteristics and circumstances in common and, according to the Bill, they belong to the same class if they have any characteristics in common or can be identified by reference to any circumstances common to them.
      We feel that it is better to make it clear that it should be open to the parties to the agreement to specify the class covered by reference to peculiar characteristics and circumstances. Our amendment would truly have the effect that the Government said they sought in Committee and would make it possible to exclude agreed classes from the operation of the closed shop, to that extent mitigating the effect of the closed shop.
      The amendment will not guarantee that militant unions will agree to operate agreements excluding such classes, but it will at least make it possible for them to do so and still retain the advantages and principle that they believe to exist with regard to the closed shop.
      12 midnight.
      Mr. Booth: The hon. Member for Cleveland and Whitby (Mr. Brittan) has pointed out that this is an amendment to a change made in Committee by a Government amendment. That change sought to make it certain that a class of employees covered by a union membership agreement could be identified by any common characteristics or circumstances.
      This amendment aims to make clear that common characteristics or circumstances used to identify a class are those agreed on by the parties to the union membership agreement. This definition or qualification of class can be used for the purpose of identifying a group for exclusion from, or for identifying a group for inclusion within, the provisions of a membership agreement.
      The amendment would seek to ensure that a class would not be identified by any characteristics which apply to it in common, irrespective of whether there is a union membership agreement.
      I understand that there are fears that a group of employees might be covered although they had little in common with the main group of employees covered by
      546
      the membership agreement. I also understand the fears the hon. Member expressed, not only on the basis of his submission, but because I have tested it by talking to representatives of small unions or groups which might be affected by it. I understand that the fear is genuine and that there is reasonable doubt about how the change made in Committee might be interpreted.
      Because the Government's amendment in Committee sought to create greater flexibility for those negotiating union membership agreements, we shall always be prepared to look at and accept amendments which improve the presentation of the Bill and make more certain that the purpose can be achieved.
      Without carping about the way this amendment was presented, we have a certain slight drafting difficulty with it. On reading it, the wording of the amendment is better than our own in the Bill and I am therefore willing, if it will meet the wishes of those who tabled it, to accept it completely in principle. If they are prepared to withdraw it, I am prepared to give an undertaking on behalf of the Government to put down an amendment in another place which will completely cover the point made in this amendment.
      Mr. Hayhoe: On that undertaking, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Mr. Deputy Speaker: It has to be withdrawn by the proposer.
      Mr. Brittan: I beg leave to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
      Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
      Mr. Tugendhat: I beg to move Amendment No. 8, in page 3, line 4, at end insert 'and after the words "religious belief" there shall be inserted the words "or conscience"'.
      We are reaching the end of a long and rather tiring day on a long and rather tiring Bill, coming on top, as it did, of a similar Bill that we dealt with in the summer. The Secretary of State said earlier that the fact that one felt strongly on a subject need not necessarily be reflected in the length of one's speech, a view with which I wish more of his supporters could have concurred. I hope

      547
      the House will understand that the fact that I intend to speak for only a few moments on this amendment in no way suggests that we do not think it important.
      This last amendment is perhaps the last with which we shall have to deal in the passage of the Bill, and that is symbolic in its way, because it is about conscience. Conscience and the position of those who have conscience in dealing with matters of this kind are central to the amendment. We on this side believe—it is a matter of regret and surprise to us that the view is not universally held—that men and women should have the right to conscientious objection to joining trade unions, just as we have always granted the right of conscientious objection to people who did not wish to do military service even in time of war, even when the country's very life was at stake.
      We are not in favour of free riders. We are not suggesting that people should be able to derive all the benefits of membership of a trade union without paying their dues. Lest any hon. Member opposite doubts the truth of that statement, I point out that when I was a working journalist on the Financial Times there was not a closed shop; one did not have to join a trade union. I voluntarily joined the National Union of Journalists. I am glad that I did so. I joined that union because I felt that it would be wrong to accept and receive all the benefits which membership of the union conferred upon me without paying my dues. The principle of not being in favour of free riders is absolutely clear. Britain has always respected the principle of freedom of conscience.
      Of course, freedom of conscience for most people means religion. For most people when one talks in terms of freedom of conscience one means religion. People who have religions, especially in this modern age, are not the only people who have consciences. Humanists have consciences. Atheists have consciences. Agnostics have consciences.
      Hon. Members: Tories have consciences.
      Mr. Tugendhat: Tories have consciences, too. The regret is that the Labour Party, judging by the need for the amendment, is lacking in consciences.
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      That is the pity. The hon. Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Kinnock) comes from a religious part of the country and no doubt does not appreciate that outside the valleys there are people who have consciences but do not go to his chapels. During the war, when the matter of conscientious objection was far more important perhaps than it is today, there were those people—not very many—who went before tribunals and were granted exemption from military service, after the most rigorous cross-examination by those who conducted these matters. We accept that there would be very few examples today of people, whether with religions or not, who would wish to seek to opt out of trade unions on grounds of conscience.
      The way one judges a civilised society is surely by the way in which it treats its minorities. The fact that the hon. Member for Bedwellty, who is usually so charming and gracious in his dealings with the Opposition, finds it a matter of amusement that not wishing to join a trade union should be regarded as a ground for conscience demonstrates the difference between us. He believes that a person who is a member of a trade union is all right and that a person who has a conscience, however strange his beliefs may be, is a matter for laughter and derision. That is the kind of thing which many people find disagreeable.
      Mr. Neil Kinnock: What I find frivolous is the comparison between the situation in which people have a conscientious objection to killing people or to participating in that and a conscientious objection to joining a trade union. The hon. Gentleman must recognise that there is a great difference between the degree of seriousness of the two situations.
      Mr. Tugendhat: Of course I recognise the difference. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will widen his horizons. I have no conscience or inhibitions about killing cows. Millions of Hindus do. They may be foolish people. The hon. Gentlemen may think that they are good for a giggle. The fact of the matter is that they have a conscience about it. Others have a conscience about not taking off their turbans when riding motor cycles. Conscience can take many different forms. A sign of the civilised society is that it respects the form which conscience takes.
      Mr. Greville Janner: Will the hon. Gentleman define the difference between a religious objection and a conscientious objection in the context of the examples he has just given?
      Mr. Tugendhat: The difference between a religious objection and one that is not based on a religion is—
      Mr. Greville Janner: A conscientious objection.
      Mr. Tugendhat: The difference between a conscientious objection based on religious grounds and one not based on religious grounds may seem important to people who, like the hon. and learned Gentleman, subscribe to orthodox and accepted religions. But a conscientious objection based on people's humanistic or other beliefs is none the less strong. It is all very well to seek definitions from the precepts of ordinary religion, but we are talking of a small, limited number of people who have objections whether or not they are members of any religion.
      It seems a tragedy that the trade union movement, with 10 million or 11 million members, and the Government cannot find it in their hearts to be generous to the small number of cases that would arise in these circumstances.
      We recognise that every conceivable safeguard should be taken to ensure that a privilege of the kind that we are suggesting is not abused. We recognise that those who opt out of trade unions on the ground of religious or other conscientious objection should be required to pay money either to charity or in some other way so that they gain no possible financial advantage from doing so.
      Mr. Ron Thomas: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that where, under the provisions of Section 24 of the Act, a tribunal may have to deal with these situations, it will be much easier for it to determine whether someone has a religious objection in the sense that he is a member of and attends a church than to have this rather nebulous concept which has all kinds of Freudian undertones about what is meant by "conscience"?
      Mr. Tugendhat: I should not have thought that it was easier. I do not think that it is a good basis on which to make law to decide whether something is easy.
      550
      Many things in life are rather difficult. But to say that it would be difficult to define something and, therefore, we should not legislate on it seems a remarkably frivolous way to deal with human rights. Many problems which come before the courts are extremely difficult. But the fact that matters are difficult has never in the past been regarded as a reason for not legislating on them or for the courts not trying to administer justice, difficult as that may be. If the law dealt only with easy problems, it would be a clumsy instrument, and injustice in the world would be increased.
      After four or five interruptions in the space of a very few minutes, my speech has lasted longer than I had expected.
      Mr. Clemitson: Will the hon. Gentleman explain why this time round the word being used is "conscience" rather than "any reasonable ground"? What is the reason for this change of heart on the part of the Opposition?
      Mr. Tugendhat: I hesitate to delay the House a moment longer. First, it would not have been in order to put forward the same form of words, and, secondly, we have pressed the point about conscience on the Government several times this year and they have always turned a down. It seemed that if we could find a more appealing form of words, to quote the Secretary of State's phrase, it might find a chink of light in the obduracy with which the Government have confronted this matter.
      I will not pursue the point any longer. I appeal to the Government at this late hour at the end of this long and tedious Bill to show some generosity to a small number of people—generosity to a minority. Surely the Government can concede that.
      12.15 a.m.
      Mr. David Madel: I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for the City of London and Westminster, South (Mr. Tugendhat) that we should bring these matters to a conclusion quickly, but as I was not a member of the Committee I should like to put two or three brief points, the answers to which may make the amendment superfluous.
      Like my hon. Friend, I believe that it is infinitely better if everybody joins a

      551
      union, and it is to be encouraged as much as possible, especially in view of some of the Acts we have passed in the past two or three years.
      On page 33 of the 1974 Act there is a provision about an employee's genuine objection to being a member of any union
      "on grounds of religious belief … or on any reasonable grounds to being a member of a particular trade union".
      I should like to take up the word "particular", and underline why we have used the word "conscience" in our amendment.
      I agree with my hon. Friend that we are not trying to have a mass exodus from unions, but I can think of three reasons why an individual may object to belonging to a particular union. Very often there may be no choice in the place of work other than the one union involved there. An individual may feel that in the past the union has not represented him or her properly in a claim against the employer for compensation for personal injury, for example. That may have happened five or 10 years ago, but the person may have felt so aggrieved that he no longer wished to belong to the union in question.
      Secondly, a person could object to a union's attitude on certain international matters. With all the great argument about the EEC draft regulations from Brussels, and the general bringing together of trade unions in Western Europe, an individual may genuinely say that he cannot accept the attitude taken by the union to which he should belong.
      Thirdly, he may feel that the union is not being vigorous enough in safety matters at his factory. At last we have on the statute book the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act, which puts many obligations on safety committees, individuals and management. That is another case where the word "particular" in the 1974 Act applies.
      My hon. Friend has made a fair point. We are asking only for the slightest of concessions by the Government. I am sure that the feeling for natural justice within the trade union movement will allow people not to belong to unions on conscience grounds, but I hope that the Minister will answer the points I have raised.
      Mr. Greville Janner: I do not accept that the Opposition are raising a conscientious objection. I do not accept that the amendment is conscientious or very small. It is very large. It is a means to open up a large chink in the closed shop principle, and in the main is deliberately moved not for reasons of conscience but out of dislike of the closed shop principle.
      From the point of view of the law, which is what we are dealing with, it is a question not of generosity but of definition. All the examples given by the hon. Member for the City of London and Westminster, South (Mr. Tugendhat), such as the question of the turban, were of religious objections. The borderline between a religious objection and a conscientious objection is narrow, and extremely difficult to define.
      The hon. Gentleman said that the law cannot merely deal with easy matters. That is true. But one does not put in a statute a word so vague as to be almost incapable of definition when there is a clear word there now.
      Because I question the motives behind the amendment, its wording, and the results that it would bring about, I urge that in no circumstances should we agree to it.
      Mr. Booth: The amendment would enable a person who is dismissed for not belonging to a closed shop union to receive compensation for unfair dismissal if that person were held to object on grounds of conscience to belonging to any union whatsoever.
      I answer first the point raised by the hon. Member for Bedfordshire, South (Mr. Madel). As the hon. Gentleman correctly stated, the legal position is that under the 1974 legislation there was a provision which would enable anyone who on reasonable grounds objected to being a member of a union to be covered by the statutory unfair dismissal provisions of the First Schedule of the Act. The Bill removes that portion of the 1974 Act. The amendment seeks to put in its place a provision which one might regard as a narrower or wider provision, according to one's view about conscientious objection. Therefore, the objections which the hon. Gentleman suggested might have relating to a union—perhaps to the political policy of the

      553
      union, or that it was not acting vigorously enough on particular matters—if they related only to one union—would no longer be valid even if the amendment were carried. Certainly they are not valid under the Bill as drafted.
      Not only would the amendment be difficult to operate, but it is subject to an objection of principle. Let me deal first with the question of the protection of the individual that it envisages. The amendment does not prevent the person who conscientiously objects to belonging to any union from being dismissed. It does not give him the right to belong. It does not obtain a job for him in the pre-entry shop. It aims to provide him with compensation for being dismissed in particular circumstances.
      There is an important distinction to be drawn between the religious objection and the conscientious objection to belonging to a trade union. The religious objection is identifiable. It is based usually on an interpretation of scripture, usually peculiar to a particular sect. Although religious belief is a subjective matter, it can be recognised objectively by non-believers.
      Conscientious objection to belonging to a trade union would be a difficult matter for a tribunal to decide. I accept that that in itself is not a reason for rejecting the amendment. However, any criterion, test, principle or code which an individual might use for the purpose of deciding whether it was right or wrong for him as an individual freely to join a trade union could, in my opinion, be fairly held by a tribunal to be a conscientious objection.
      That view is based on my consideration of the matter. I have no legal advice on it. But in the true and generally accepted meaning of the word "conscientious" in the English language one is talking about the tests which an individual uses to decide whether it is correct for him to engage in the action. Therefore, if he had a test of his own, if he erected his own criteria for saying whether it was right for him, he could rightly argue before a tribunal that that was a matter for conscience.
      Whether one accepts that view or not—and I do not ascribe it to anyone other
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      than myself—there is an objection of principle to the amendment. It cannot be right that the law should allow a closed shop agreement to exist lawfully and at the same time take away from an employer the right, in certain circumstances, to uphold that agreement without having to pay compensation for doing so.
      On those grounds, I hope that the House will reject the amendment. However, that is not a complete solution. If we were doing no more than that, I should not be very proud of the legislation we seek to put on the statute book. In the amendments we have already made, and in the amendment moved by the Opposition which we have accepted in principle and will seek to embrace in the Bill, we have given a meaning to "union membership agreement" in our law which will be much more flexible and will allow individuals who negotiate for the purpose of forming closed shops not only to exclude individuals more readily but to tolerate the continuation in employment of someone who is outwith the provisions without, by doing so, rendering the union membership agreement invalid.
      The majority of people who take decisions on whether to form a closed shop have very much in mind the difficulty of the individual with the objection. Many decisions of trade unionists against forming a closed shop are based on the knowledge that they have in their workplace people who have objections. To the extent that that is the case we have a partial explanation of why the majority of people in trade union organised establishments do not have a closed shop agreement. We have gone part of the way in the Bill to make provisions for the flexible agreement, for the individual to exist outwith an agreement without making it invalid.
      We have gone part of the way to meet the difficulty of the conscientious objector, In rejecting the amendment I hope it will be understood that we are not rejecting the idea that people have conscientious objections. We are recognising that the right collectively to combine in the closed shop must put certain limitations on conscientious objection. For that reason I hope that the amendment will be either withdrawn or rejected.
      Question put, That the amendment be made.
      The House divided: Ayes 242. Noes 288.

      Division No. 92.]

      AYES

      [12.27 a.m.

      Adley, Robert

      Gray, Hamish

      Mudd, David

      Aitken, Jonathan

      Grieve, Percy

      Neave, Alrey

      Alison, Michael

      Griffiths, Eldon

      Nelson, Anthony

      Amery, Rt Hon Julian

      Grist, Ian

      Neubert, Michael

      Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne)

      Grylls, Michael

      Newton, Tony

      Awdry, Daniel

      Hall, Sir John

      Normanton, Tom

      Baker, Kenneth

      Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

      Nott, John

      Banks, Robert

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Onslow, Cranley

      Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay)

      Hampson Dr Keith

      Oppenheim, Mrs Sally

      Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham)

      Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye)

      Osborn, John

      Benyon, W.

      Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss

      Page, John (Harrow West)

      Berry, Hon Anthony

      Hastings, Stephen

      Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)

      Biffen, John

      Havers, Sir Michael

      Pardoe, John

      Biggs-Davison, John

      Hayhoe, Barney

      Parkinson, Cecil

      Blaker, Peter

      Heseltine, Michael

      Pattie, Geoffrey

      Body, Richard

      Hicks, Robert

      Penhaligon, David

      Boscawen, Hon Robert

      Higgins, Terence L.

      Percival, Ian

      Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown)

      Holland, Philip

      Peyton, Rt Hon John

      Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent)

      Hooson, Emlyn

      Pink, R. Bonner

      Braine, Sir Bernard

      Hordern, Peter

      Price, David (Eastleigh)

      Brittan, Leon

      Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

      Prior, Rt Hon James

      Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

      Howell, Ralph(North Norfolk)

      Raison, Timothy

      Bryan, Sir Paul

      Howells, Geraint (Cardigan)

      Rathbone, Tim

      Buchanan-Smith, Alick

      Hunt, John

      Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal)

      Buck, Antony

      Hurd, Douglas

      Rees-Davies, W. R.

      Budgen, Nick

      Hutchison, Michael Clark

      Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex)

      Bulmer, Esmond

      Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

      Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

      Burden, F. A.

      James, David

      Ridley, Hon Nicholas

      Carlisle, Mark

      Jessel, Toby

      Ridsdale, Julian

      Carr, Rt Hon Robert

      Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead)

      Rifkind, Malcolm

      Chalker, Mrs Lynda

      Jones, Arthur (Daventry)

      Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey

      Channon, Paul

      Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith

      Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)

      Churchill, W. S

      Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

      Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

      Clark, Alan (Plymouth. Sutton)

      Kershaw, Anthony

      Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

      Clark, William (Croydon S)

      Kimball, Marcus

      Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      King, Evelyn (South Dorset)

      Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire)

      Cockcroft, John

      King, Tom (Bridgwater)

      Royle, Sir Anthony

      Cooke, Robert (Bristol W)

      Kitson, Sir Timothy

      Sainsbury, Tim

      Cope, John

      Lamont, Norman

      Scott, Nicholas

      Cordle, John H.

      Lane, David

      Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)

      Cormack, Patrick

      Langford-Holt, Sir John

      Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)

      Corrie, John

      Latham, Michael (Melton)

      Shelton, William (Streatham)

      Davies, Rt Hon J. (Knutsford)

      Lawrence, Ivan

      Shepherd, Colin

      Dean, Paul (N Somerset)

      Lawson, Nigel

      Shersby, Michael

      Dodsworth, Geoffrey

      Lester, Jim (Beeston)

      Silvester, Fred

      Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Sims, Roger

      Drayson, Burnaby

      Lloyd, Ian

      Sinclair, Sir George

      du Cann, Rt Hon Edward

      Loveridge, John

      Skeet, T. H. H.

      Durant, Tony

      Luce, Richard

      Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)

      Dykes, Hugh

      McAdden, Sir Stephen

      Smith, Dudley (Warwick)

      Eden, Rt Hon Sir John

      Macfarlane, Neil

      Speed, Keith

      Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

      MacGregor, John

      Spence, John

      Elliott, Sir William

      Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham)

      Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)

      Emery, Peter

      McNair-Wllson, M. (Newbury)

      Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)

      Eyre, Reginald

      Madel, David

      Sproat, Iain

      Fairbairn, Nicholas

      Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

      Stainton, Keith

      Fairgrieve, Russell

      Marten, Neil

      Stanbrook, Ivor

      Farr, John

      Mates, Michael

      Stanley, John

      Finsberg, Geoffrey

      Mather, Carol

      Steel, David (Roxburgh)

      Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

      Maude, Angus

      Steen, Anthony (Wavertree)

      Fookes, Miss Janet

      Maudling, Rt Hon Reginald

      Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)

      Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd)

      Mawby, Ray

      Stokes, John

      Fox, Marcus

      Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

      Tapsell, Peter

      Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St)

      Mayhew, Patrick

      Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)

      Fry, Peter

      Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove)

      Tebbit, Norman

      Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

      Mills, Peter

      Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret

      Gardiner, George (Reigate)

      Miscampbell, Norman

      Thomas, Rt Hon P. (Hendon S)

      Gardner, Edward (S Fylde)

      Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

      Townsend, Cyril D.

      Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham)

      Moate, Roger

      Trotter, Neville

      Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

      Monro, Hector

      Tugendhat, Christopher

      Glyn Dr Alan

      Montgomery, Fergus

      van Straubenzee, W. R.

      Goodhart, Philip

      Moore, John (Croydon C)

      Vaughan, Dr Gerard

      Goodhew, Victor

      More, Jasper (Ludlow)

      Viggers, Peter

      Goodlad, Alastair

      Morgan, Geraint

      Wakeham, John

      Gorst, John

      Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral

      Walder, David (Clitheroe)

      Gow, Ian (Eastbourne)

      Morris, Michael (Northampton S)

      Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester)

      Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry)

      Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

      Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek

      Grant, Anthony (Harrow C)

      Morrison, Peter (Chester)

      Wall, Patrick

      Walters, Dennis

      Wiggin, Jerry

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      Warren, Kenneth

      Winterton, Nicholas

      Mr. Adam Butler and

      Weatherill, Bernard

      Wood, Rt Hon Richard

      Mr. Spencer Le Marchant.

      Wells, John

      Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton)

      NOES

      Abse, Leo

      Ellis, Tom (Wrexham)

      Lewis, Arthur (Newham N)

      Allaun, Frank

      Evans, Ioan (Aberdare)

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Anderson, Donald

      Evans John (Newton)

      Lipton, Marcus

      Archer, Peter

      Ewing, Harry (Stirling)

      Litterick, Tom

      Armstrong, Ernest

      Faulds, Andrew

      Loyden, Eddie

      Ashley, Jack

      Fernyhough, Rt Hon E.

      Luard, Evan

      Ashton, Joe

      Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

      Lyon, Alexander (York)

      Atkins, Ronald (Preston N)

      Fitt, Gerard (Belfast W)

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)

      Atkinson Norman

      Flannery, Martin

      Mabon, Dr J. Dickson

      Bagier, Gordon A. T.

      Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

      McCartney, Hugh

      Bain, Mrs Margaret

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlingon)

      McElhone, Frank

      Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

      Foot, Rt Hon Michael

      MacFarquhar, Roderick

      Barnett, Rt Hon Joel

      Ford, Ben

      McGuire, Michael (Ince)

      Bates, Alf

      Forrester, John

      Mackenzie, Gregor

      Bean, R. E.

      Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin)

      Mackintosh, John P.

      Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood

      Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd)

      McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)

      Bennett, Andrew(Stockport N)

      Freeson, Reginald

      McNamara, Kevin

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Garrett, John (Norwich S)

      Madden, Max

      Bishop, E. S.

      Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)

      Magee, Bryan

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      George, Bruce

      Marks, Kenneth

      Boardman, H.

      Gilbert, Dr John

      Marquand, David

      Booth, Albert

      Ginsburg, David

      Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

      Boothroyd, Miss Betty

      Golding, John

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur

      Gould, Bryan

      Mason, Rt Hon Roy

      Boyden, James (Bish Auck)

      Gourlay, Harry

      Meacher, Michael

      Bradley, Tom

      Graham, Ted

      Mendelson, John

      Bray, Dr Jeremy

      Grant John (Islington C)

      Mikardo, Ian

      Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

      Grocott, Bruce

      Millan, Bruce

      Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)

      Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)

      Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)

      Brown, Ronald (Hackney S)

      Hamling, William

      Miller, Mrs Millie (Ilford N)

      Buchan, Norman

      Hardy, Peter

      Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen)

      Buchanan, Richard

      Harper, Joseph

      Molloy, William

      Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green)

      Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

      Moonman, Eric

      Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)

      Hart, Rt Hon Judith

      Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

      Campbell, Ian

      Hatton, Frank

      Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

      Canavan, Dennis

      Hayman, Mrs Helene

      Moyle, Roland

      Cant, R. B.

      Healey, Rt Hon Denis

      Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

      Carmichael, Neil

      Heffer, Eric S.

      Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King

      Carter, Ray

      Henderson, Douglas

      Newens, Stanley

      Carter-Jones, Lewis

      Hooley, Frank

      Noble, Mike

      Cartwright, John

      Horam, John

      Ogden, Eric

      Clemitson, Ivor

      Howell, Denis (B'ham, Sm H)

      O'Halloran, Michael

      Cocks, Michael (Bristol S)

      Hoyle, Douglas (Nelson)

      O'Malley, Rt Hon Brian

      Cohen, Stanley

      Huckfield, Les

      Orbach, Maurice

      Coleman, Donald

      Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey)

      Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

      Concannon, J D

      Hughes, Mark (Durham)

      Ovenden, John

      Conlan, Bernard

      Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N)

      Owen, Dr David

      Cook, Robin F. (Edin C)

      Hughes, Roy (Newport)

      Padley, Walter

      Corbett, Robin

      Hunter, Adam

      Palmer, Arthur

      Cox, Thomas (Tooting)

      Irvine, Rt Hon Sir A. (Edge Hill)

      Park, George

      Craigen, J. M. (Maryhill)

      Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford)

      Parry, Robert

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Jackson, Colin (Brighouse)

      Pavitt, Laurie

      Cronin, John

      Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln)

      Pendry, Tom

      Cryer, Bob

      Janner, Greville

      Perry, Ernest

      Cunningham, G. (Islington S)

      Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

      Phipps, Dr Colin

      Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh)

      Jeger, Mrs Lena

      Prescott, John

      Dalyell, Tam

      Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

      Price C. (Lewisham W)

      Davidson, Arthur

      John, Brynmor

      Price, William (Rugby)

      Davies, Bryan (Enfield N)

      Johnson, James (Hull West)

      Radice, Giles

      Davies, Denzil (Llanelli)

      Johnson, Walter (Derby S)

      Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S)

      Davies, Ifor (Gower)

      Jones, Alec (Rhondda)

      Richardson, Miss Jo

      Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)

      Jones, Barry (East Flint)

      Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

      Deakins, Eric

      Jones, Dan (Burnley)

      Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)

      Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

      Judd, Frank

      Robertson, John (Paisley)

      Dell, Rt Hon Edmund

      Kaufman, Gerald

      Roderick, Caerwyn

      Dempsey, James

      Kelley, Richard

      Rodgers, George (Chorley)

      Doig, Peter

      Kerr, Russell

      Rodgers, William (Stockton)

      Dormand, J. D.

      Kilroy-Silk, Robert

      Rooker, J. W.

      Douglas-Mann, Bruce

      Kinnock, Neil

      Roper, John

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Lambie, David

      Rose, Paul B.

      Dunn, James A.

      Lamborn, Harry

      Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilm'nock)

      Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

      Lamond, James

      Rowlands, Ted

      Eadie, Alex

      Latham, Arthur (Paddington)

      Ryman, John

      Edelman, Maurice

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Sandelson, Neville

      Edge, Geoff

      Lee, John

      Sedgemore, Brian

      Selby, Harry

      Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE)

      Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)

      Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South)

      558

      559

      Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne)

      Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)

      White, James (Pollok)

      Short, Rt Hon E. (Newcastle C)

      Thompson, George

      Whitehead, Phillip

      Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)

      Thorne, Stan (Preston South)

      Whitlock, William

      Sillars, James

      Tierney, Sydney

      Wigley, Dafydd

      Silverman, Julius

      Tinn, James

      Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

      Skinner, Dennis

      Tomlinson, John

      Williams, Alan (Swansea W)

      Small, William

      Torney, Tom

      Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)

      Snape, Peter

      Urwin, T. W.

      Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford)

      Spearing, Nigel

      Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)

      Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Walden, Brian (B'ham, L'dyw'd)

      Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

      Stallard, A. W.

      Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

      Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)

      Stewart, Donald (Western Isles)

      Walker, Terry (Kingswood)

      Wilson, William (Coventry SE)

      Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham)

      Ward, Michael

      Wise, Mrs Audrey

      Stoddart, David

      Watkins, David

      Woodall, Alec

      Stott, Roger

      Watkinson, John

      Woof, Robert

      Strang, Gavin

      Watt, Hamish

      Wrigglesworth, Ian

      Strauss, Rt Hon G. R.

      Weetch, Ken

      Young, David (Bolton E)

      Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley

      Weitzman, David

      Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

      Wellbeloved, James

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

      Welsh, Andrew

      Mr. James Hamilton and

      Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)

      White, Frank R. (Bury)

      Mr. John Ellis.

      Question accordingly negatived.
      Motion made, and Question, That the Bill be now read the Third time, put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 56 (Third Reading):—
      The House divided: Ayes 288, Noes 250.

      Division No. 93.]

      AYES

      [12.38 a.m.

      Abse, Leo

      Crawshaw, Richard

      Gourlay, Harry

      Allaun, Frank

      Cronin, John

      Graham, Ted

      Anderson, Donald

      Cryer, Bob

      Grant John (Islington C)

      Archer, Peter

      Cunningham, G. (Islington S)

      Grocott, Bruce

      Armstrong, Ernest

      Cunningham, Dr J. (Whiteh)

      Hamilton, James (Bothwell)

      Ashley, Jack

      Dalyell, Tam

      Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)

      Ashton, Joe

      Davidson, Arthur

      Hamling, William

      Atkins, Ronald (Preslon N)

      Davies, Bryan (Enfield N)

      Hardy, Peter

      Atkinson, Norman

      Davies, Denzil (Llanelli)

      Harper, Joseph

      Bagier, Gordon A. T.

      Davies, Ifor (Gower)

      Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

      Bain, Mrs Margaret

      Davis, Clinton (Hackney C)

      Hart, Rt Hon Judith

      Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

      Deakins, Eric

      Hatton, Frank

      Barnett, Rt Hon Joel

      Dean, Joseph (Leeds West)

      Hayman Mrs Helene

      Bates, Alf

      Dell, Rt Hon Edmund

      Healey, Rt Hon Denis

      Bean, R. E.

      Dempsey, James

      Heffer, Eric S.

      Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood

      Doig, Peter

      Henderson, Douglas

      Bennett Andrew (Stockport N)

      Dormand, J. D.

      Hooley, Frank

      Bidwell, Sydney

      Douglas-Mann, Bruce

      Horam, John

      Bishop, E. S.

      Duffy, A. E. P.

      Howell, Denis (B'ham, Sm H)

      Blenkinsop, Arthur

      Dunn, James A

      Hoyle, Douglas (Nelson)

      Boardman, H.

      Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth

      Huckfield, Les

      Booth, Albert

      Eadie, Alex

      Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey)

      Boothroyd, Miss Betty

      Edelman, Maurice

      Hughes, Mark (Durham)

      Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur

      Edge, Geoff

      Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen, N)

      Boyden, James (Bish Auck)

      Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE)

      Hughes, Roy (Newport)

      Bradley, Tom

      Ellis, John (Brigg & Scun)

      Hunter, Adam

      Bray, Dr Jeremy

      Ellis, Tom (Wrexham)

      Irvine, Rt Hon Sir A. (Edge Hill)

      Brown, Hugh D. (Provan)

      Evans, Ioan (Aberdare)

      Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford)

      Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W)

      Evans John (Newton)

      Jackson, Colin (Brighouse)

      Brown, Ronald (Hackney S)

      Ewing, Harry (Stirling)

      Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln)

      Buchan, Norman

      Ewing, Mrs Winifred (Moray)

      Janner, Greville

      Buchanan, Richard

      Faulds, Andrew

      Jay, Rt Hon Douglas

      Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green)

      Fernyhough, Rt Hon E.

      Jeger, Mrs Lena

      Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P)

      Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

      Jenkins, Hugh (Pulney)

      Campbell, Ian

      Fitt, Gerard (Belfast W)

      John, Brynmor

      Canavan, Dennis

      Flannery, Martin

      Johnson, James (Hull West)

      Cant, R. B.

      Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

      Johnson, Walter (Derby S)

      Carmichael, Neil

      Fletcher, Ted (Darlingon)

      Jones, Alec (Rhondda)

      Carter, Ray

      Foot, Rt Hon Michael

      Jones, Barry (East Flint)

      Carter-Jones, Lewis

      Ford, Ben

      Jones, Dan (Burnley)

      Cartwright, John

      Forrester, John

      Judd, Frank

      Clemitson, Ivor

      Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin)

      Kaufman, Gerald

      Cocks, Michael (Bristol S)

      Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd)

      Cohen, Stanley

      Freeson, Reginald

      Kelley, Richard

      Coleman, Donald

      Garrett, John (Norwich S)

      Kerr, Russell

      Concannon, J. D.

      Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)

      Kilroy-Silk, Robert

      Conlan, Bernard

      George, Bruce

      Kinnock, Neil

      Cook, Robin F. (Edin C)

      Gilbert, Dr John

      Lambie, David

      Corbett, Robin

      Ginsburg, David

      Lamborn, Harry

      Cox, Thomas (Tooting)

      Golding, John

      Lamond, James

      Craigen, J. M. (Maryhill)

      Gould, Bryan

      Latham, Arthur (Paddington)

      Leadbitter, Ted

      Orme, Rt Hon Stanley

      Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley

      Lee, John

      Ovenden, John

      Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)

      Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough)

      Owen, Dr David

      Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)

      Lewis, Arthur (Newham N)

      Padley, Walter

      Thomas, Mike (Newcastle E)

      Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

      Palmer, Arthur

      Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW)

      Lipton, Marcus

      Park, George

      Thompson, George

      Litterick, Tom

      Parry, Robert

      Thorne, Stan (Preston South)

      Loyden, Eddie

      Pendry, Tom

      Tierney, Sydney

      Luard, Evan

      Perry, Ernest

      Tinn, James

      Lyon, Alexander (York)

      Phipps, Dr Colin

      Tomlinson, John

      Lyons, Edward (Bradford W)

      Prescott, John

      Torney, Tom

      Mabon, Dr J. Dickson

      Price C. (Lewisham W)

      Urwin, T. W.

      McCartney, Hugh

      Price, William (Rugby)

      Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V)

      McElhone, Frank

      Radice, Giles

      Walden, Brian (B'ham, L'dyw'd)

      MacFarquhar, Roderick

      Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S)

      Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

      McGuire, Michael (Ince)

      Richardson, Miss Jo

      Walker, Terry (Kingswood)

      Mackenzie, Gregor

      Roberts, Albert (Normanton)

      Ward, Michael

      Mackintosh, John P.

      Roberts. Gwilym (Cannock)

      Watkins, David

      McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C)

      Robertson, John (Paisley)

      Watkinson, John

      McNamara, Kevin

      Roderick, Caerwyn

      Watt, Hamish

      Madden, Max

      Rodgers, George (Chorley)

      Weetch, Ken

      Magee, Bryan

      Rodgers, William (Stockton)

      Weitzman, David

      Marks, Kenneth

      Rooker, J. W.

      Wellbeloved, James

      Marquand, David

      Roper, John

      Welsh, Andrew

      Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole)

      Rose, Paul B.

      White, Frank R. (Bury)

      Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)

      Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilm'nock)

      White, James (Pollok)

      Mason, Rt Hon Roy

      Rowlands, Ted

      Whitehead, Phillip

      Meacher, Michael

      Ryman, John

      Whitlock, William

      Mendelson, John

      Sandelson, Neville

      Wigley, Dafydd

      Mikardo, Ian

      Sedgemore, Brian

      Willey, Rt Hon Frederick

      Millan, Bruce

      Selby, Harry

      Williams, Alan (Swansea W)

      Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride)

      Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South)

      Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch)

      Miller, Mrs Millie (Ilford N)

      Sheldon, Robert (Ashton-u-Lyne)

      Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford)

      Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen)

      Short, Rt Hon E. (Newcastle C)

      Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

      Molloy, William

      Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)

      Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

      Moonman, Eric

      Sillars, James

      Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)

      Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe)

      Silverman, Julius

      Wilson, William (Coventry SE)

      Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

      Skinner, Dennis

      Wise, Mrs Audrey

      Moyle, Roland

      Small, William

      Woodall, Alec

      Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick

      Snape, Peter

      Woof, Robert

      Murray, Rt Hon Ronald King

      Spearing, Nigel

      Wrigglesworth, Ian

      Newens, Stanley

      Spriggs, Leslie

      Young, David (Bolton E)

      Noble, Mike

      Stallard, A. W.

      Ogden, Eric

      Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham)

      TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

      O'Halloran, Michael

      Stott, Roger

      Mr. David Stoddart and

      O'Malley, Rt Hon Brian

      Strang, Gavin

      Mr. Laurie Pavitt.

      Orbach, Maurice

      Strauss, Rt Hon G. R.

      NOES

      Adley, Robert

      Churchill, W. S.

      Fry, Peter

      Aitken, Jonathan

      Clark, Alan (Plymouth, Sutton)

      Galbraith, Hon. T. G. D.

      Alison, Michael

      Clark, William (Croydon S)

      Gardiner, George (Reigate)

      Amery, Rt Hon Julian

      Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

      Gardner, Edward (S Fylde)

      Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne)

      Cockcroft, John

      Gilmour, Rt Hon Ian (Chesham)

      Awdry, Daniel

      Cooke, Robert (Bristol W)

      Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife)

      Baker, Kenneth

      Cope, John

      Glyn Dr Alan

      Banks, Robert

      Cardle, John H.

      Goodhart, Philip

      Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay)

      Cormack, Patrick

      Goodhew, Victor

      Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham)

      Corrie, John

      Goodlad, Alastair

      Benyon, W.

      Craig, Rt Hon W. (Belfast E)

      Gorst, John

      Berry, Hon Anthony

      Davies, Rt Hon J. (Knutsford)

      Biffen, John

      Dean, Paul (N Somerset)

      Gow, Ian (Eastbourne)

      Biggs-Davison, John

      Dodsworth, Geoffrey

      Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry)

      Blaker, Peter

      Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James

      Grant, Anthony (Harrow C)

      Body, Richard

      Drayson, Burnaby

      Gray, Hamish

      Boscawen, Hon Robert

      du Cann, Rt Hon Edward

      Grieve, Percy

      Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown)

      Durant, Tony

      Griffiths, Eldon

      Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent)

      Dykes, Hugh

      Grist, Ian

      Bradford, Rev Robert

      Eden, Rt Hon Sir John

      Grylls, Michael

      Braine, Sir Bernard

      Edwards, Nicholas (Pembroke)

      Hall, Sir John

      Brittan, Leon

      Elliott, Sir William

      Hall-Davis, A. G. F.

      Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

      Emery, Peter

      Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury)

      Bryan, Sir Paul

      Eyre, Reginald

      Hampson, Dr Keith

      Buchanan-Smith, Alick

      Fairbairn, Nicholas

      Harrison, Col Sir Harwood (Eye)

      Buck, Antony

      Fairgrieve, Russell

      Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss

      Budgen, Nick

      Farr, John

      Hastings, Stephen

      Bulmer, Esmond

      Finsberg, Geoffrey

      Havers, Sir Michael

      Burden, F. A.

      Fisher, Sir Nigel

      Hayhoe, Barney

      Carlisle, Mark

      Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

      Heselllne, Michael

      Carr, Rt Hon Robert

      Fookes, Miss Janet

      Hicks, Robert

      Carson, John

      Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'f'd)

      Higgins, Terence L.

      Chalker, Mrs Lynda

      Fox, Marcus

      Holland, Philip

      Channon, Paul

      Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St)

      Hooson, Emlyn

      562

      563

      Hordern, Peter

      Monro, Hector

      Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)

      Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey

      Montgomery, Fergus

      Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)

      Howell, Ralph(North Norfolk)

      Moore, John (Croydon C)

      Shelton, William (Streatham)

      Hunt, John

      More, Jasper (Ludlow)

      Shepherd, Colin

      Hurd Douglas

      Morgan, Geraint

      Shersby, Michael

      Hutchison, Michael Clark

      Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral

      Silvester, Fred

      Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

      Morris, Michael (Northampton S)

      Sims, Roger

      James, David

      Morrison, Charles (Devizes)

      Sinclair, Sir George

      Jessel, Toby

      Morrison, Peter (Chester)

      Skeet, T. H. H.

      Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead)

      Mudd, David

      Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)

      Jones, Arthur (Daventry)

      Neave, Airey

      Smith, Dudley (Warwick)

      Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith

      Nelson, Anthony

      Speed, Keith

      Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine

      Neubert, Michael

      Spence, John

      Kershaw, Anthony

      Newton, Tony

      Spicer, Jim (W Dorset)

      Kimball, Marcus

      Normanton, Tom

      Spicer, Michael (S Worcester)

      King, Evelyn (South Dorset)

      Nott, John

      Sproat, Iain

      King, Tom (Bridgwater)

      Onslow, Cranley

      Stainton, Keith

      Kitson, Sir Timothy

      Oppenheim, Mrs Sally

      Stanbrook, Ivor

      Lamont, Norman

      Osborn, John

      Stanley, John

      Lane, David

      Page, John (Harrow West)

      Steel, David (Roxburgh)

      Langford-Holt, Sir John

      Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby)

      Steen, Anthony (Wavertree)

      Latham, Michael (Melton)

      Pardoe, John

      Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)

      Lawrence, Ivan

      Parkinson, Cecil

      Stokes, John

      Lawson, Nigel

      Pattie, Geoffrey

      Tapsell, Peter

      Lester, Jim (Beeston)

      Penhaligon, David

      Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart)

      Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

      Percival, Ian

      Tebbit, Norman

      Lloyd, Ian

      Peyton, Rt Hon John

      Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret

      Loveridge, John

      Pink, R. Bonner

      Thomas, Rt Hon P. (Hendon S)

      Luce, Richard

      Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch

      Townsend, Cyril D.

      McAdden, Sir Stephen

      Price, David (Eastleigh)

      Trotter, Neville

      McCusker, H.

      Prior, Rt Hon James

      Tugendhat, Christopher

      Macfarlane, Neil

      Raison, Timothy

      van Straubenzee, W. R.

      MacGregor, John

      Rathbone

      Vaughan, Dr Gerard

      Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham)

      Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal)

      Viggers, Peter

      McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury)

      Rees-Davies, W. R.

      Wakeham, John

      Madel, David

      Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts)

      Walder, David (Clitheroe)

      Marshall, Michael (Arundel)

      Renton, Tim (Mid-Sussex)

      Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester)

      Marten, Neil

      Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

      Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek

      Mates, Michael

      Ridley, Hon Nicholas

      Wall, Patrick

      Mather, Carol

      Ridsdale, Julian

      Walters, Dennis

      Maude, Angus

      Rifkind, Malcolm

      Warren, Kenneth

      Maudling, Rt Hon Reginald

      Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey

      Weatherill, Bernard

      Mawby, Ray

      Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)

      Wells, John

      Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin

      Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

      Wiggin, Jerry

      Mayhew, Patrick

      Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)

      Winterton, Nicholas

      Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove)

      Ross, William (Londonderry)

      Wood, Rt Hon Richard

      Mills, Peter

      Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

      Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton)

      Miscampbell, Norman

      Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire)

      Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)

      Royle, Sir Anthony

      TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

      Moate, Roger

      Sainsbury, Tim

      Mr. Adam Butler and

      Molyneaux, James

      Scott, Nicholas

      Mr. Spencer Le Marchant.

      Question accordingly agreed to.
      Bill read the Third time and passed.

    ADJOURNMENT
    Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Coleman.]

  BASINGSTOKE CANAL (SURREY SECTION)
  12.49 a.m.
  Mr. Cranley Onslow: Even though this is the first time that I have ever found it necessary to press a constituency matter to an Adjournment debate, I hope that I shall not have to detain the House for long because, as the Minister knows, the question of the Surrey section of the Basingstoke
  564
  Canal has become in one respect less urgent than it was last week.
  I am still glad to have had the good fortune to secure this Adjournment debate because the question of a compulsory purchase notice on the Basingstoke section of the Surrey Canal was first raised as long ago as July 1973. An inspector held an inquiry in October 1973 and, with commendable promptness, put in his report in December of that year, on which he is to be congratulated. Unfortunately, despite a certain amount of prompting, we were unable to get an announcement from the Department. In July I was told that there were legal difficulties but that a decision would be forthcoming as soon as possible. In November I was promised a decision "very soon", and in January I was promised one by the end of the month. So by 1st February I thought that I had better

  565
  try to hot up the pace, hence tonight's debate.
  In the interval the Minister announced his decision on 10th February, and that is a welcome development. There seems rather a lot of red ink on the decision by way of amendments and exceptions, but I unreservedly welcome the decision. I would like to be able to derive great encouragement from it, but, unfortunately, there is a complicating factor which I hope the Minister will say something about.
  When the old Surrey County Council resolved to proceed to a compulsory purchase of the canal, it made the reservation that no notice to treat or enter should be served until an alternative development certificate had finally established the basis of the valuation. This certificate has proved even harder to obtain than the compulsory purchase notice itself. It was first thought that the New Basingstoke Canal Co., which owned the canal, would make an application for it, but it seemed reluctant to do so. Ultimately the county valuer had to apply for it. In 1972 the county issued a determination, the owners appealed, the hearing for the appeal was fixed and was to have taken place in January last year. Then at the last minute there was a technical difficulty and the whole business was withdrawn. The owners put in an application in April 1974, the county issued a certificate in November 1974, and an appeal was submitted on Christmas Eve.
  The situation now is that the issue has come back to the Minister. I understand from the Department that it is not expected that a hearing to determine the appeal can take place before August or September this year, and no one seems to have any idea when a determination might be issued. On past form it is likely to take months rather than weeks. So the unfortunate situation has arisen in which there is uncertainty and it appears impossible to proceed. The compulsory purchase order has been confirmed, but the basis of valuation is not known and the county will not proceed until that valuation is known. Will the Minister therefore give an undertaking that he will do all he can to hurry up the processes if it proves necessary to go to a hearing?
  566
  The canal was first authorised by an Act of Parliament in 1758 and it has had 21 owners since then, most of whom have gone broke. We want a new situation where there will be only one more owner, the county council, and we do not want the council to run out of funds or to pay too much.
  The business of restoring a derelict canal is bound to be expensive. The rates in Surrey, as elsewhere, have risen to levels which the ratepayers find it incredibly difficult to sustain. I have no wish to seek to increase the burden upon them. Therefore, if the canal is to be restored there will be demands, to which I hope the Minister will turn a sympathetic ear, for grants to be made from such sources as the Sports Council and the Countryside Commission. There is a need to get on with the physical planning and financial restoration of the canal now if the deterioration mentioned more than once in the inspector's report is not to become almost irreversible.
  I give the Minister this encouragement. There are volunteers who are willing to put their energy, enthusiasm and expertise to work in Surrey, as they have already done in Hampshire. I am one of the vice-presidents of the Surrey and 'Hampshire Canal Society, the members of which are capable and energetic and determined to do all they can to restore a considerable amenity to the people in this part of England. There is widespread local interest and support forthcoming, and it is important that it should be harnessed.
  In all the past history of the canal and during my 10 years' association with it the owners, unfortunately, have not done much to capture public imagination or understanding. I do not wish to dwell on that, but now that the principle of the CPO is established, the owners might see themselves in the capacity of trustees rather than as enjoying a freehold of indefinite duration. That should put a duty on them to allow people who want to work to achieve the restoration of the canal to have the ability and scope to do so.
  I hope that the volunteers and the canal society, if necessary, will be able to get permission from the owners to carry out clearing and restoration work ahead of any formal county council agreement. The canal is a historic and environmental

  567
  asset. It must not be allowed to go beyond the point of no return so that it deteriorates beyond all possibility of restoration. We must make sure that if red tape is in the way it is cut. We must have the vision and determination to ensure that all concerned—the Minister, Surrey County Council, the owners as trustees and the canal society—get together to put their efforts and energies to the most constructive use, so that I do not have to raise the same subject in 10 years' time.
  12.57 a.m.
  Mr. Geoffrey Pattie: I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow) for allowing me a few moments in his debate to draw attention to one aspect which is of great interest to some of my constituents. About one-and-a-half miles of the Basingstoke Canal flow through my constituency and there are approximately 48 houseboats owners living on that section of it, many of whom were represented and made objections to some of the proposals at the public inquiry.
  I wish to refer to paragraph 11 of the decision letter, dated 10th February, in which it is said:
  "The Secretary of State has taken special note of the objections made by the owners of houseboats. He has accepted the assurances of the county council that they will honour existing licences, and will do everything possible to prevent hardship to those concerned "
  I wish to draw to the Minister's attention the phrase "existing licences". The inference is that the county council is not inclined to allow any new licences to be taken out.
  Although the right has existed in the past for the canal-owning company to refuse a licence to an individual owner, virtually all new owners are allowed to take out a licence. If the county council insisted on existing licences only, the people already there would not be able to sell their houseboats and their assets would become worthless.
  I hope that the Minister will be able to seek an assurance from the county council that it will honour existing licences and be prepared at least to consider on the present basis new applications for licences, so that houseboat owners will be able to sell their houseboats on the market in the normal way.
  1.0 a.m.
  The Minister of State, Department of the Environment (Mr. Denis Howell): I am obliged to the hon. Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow) for raising this important matter and for enabling me to deal with the subject of canals. I wish to express appreciation to the Surrey local authority as well as to Hampshire and other local authorities which join together with amenity groups and with the British Waterways Board to ensure that canals which a few years ago were going out of use are now places for enjoyment and recreation. It is the Government's view that everything possible should be done to open up and rehabilitate these canals for recreation, fishing, boating and the enjoyment of people who like to take a pleasant walk down the towpath.
  I am glad that the hon. Gentleman mentioned voluntary groups. It has been most encouraging to see how citizens have worked voluntarily to restore canals and towpaths. In some cases pubs have been built along the towpaths so that an enjoyable walk can be combined with a social drink. This is the emerging pattern of canal development and is to be welcomed.
  I apologise to the hon. Gentleman for the degree of procrastination in this decision. I assure him that we have moved as quickly as we can since we have been axious to make a favourable decision. However, three difficult legal matters have faced us. I will come to them shortly.
  Mr. David Mitchell: I very much welcome the Minister's comments about the fact that canals should be opened up and become lungs for the public. I am glad that he is seeking to do something about the Surrey end of the canal so that there is a continuous amenity right the way through. I was glad to hear him mention voluntary groups which have carried out an enormous amount of work. It is most encouraging—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Georage Thomas): Order. The hon. Gentleman is making a speech.
  Mr. Howell: I thank the hon. Member for those sentiments. I was about to tell

  569
  the House of some of the legal complexities facing the Department which have caused some trouble.
  The first difficulty relates to the legal definition of the phrase "open country", previously defined in Section 59 of the 1949 Act. There were difficulties with this phrase when canals passed through urban areas. But we in the Department were able to decide that a canal going through an urban area was in open country, and we hope that we have that right.
  The second major issue related to excepted land under the 1949 Act. Both Surrey and Hampshire argued at the inquiry that they had power under Section 76 of the 1949 Act to acquire the land in question. But legal advice which we have obtained since the inquiry is that those arguments were unsound, and that advice has been accepted. Although it has not affected the outcome, it was a matter of importance which had to be made clear.
  Thirdly, there were the houseboats, to which the hon. Member for Chertsey and Walton (Mr. Pattie) referred. We rely heavily on the word of the county councils, and I am sure that hon. Gentlemen will join me in thinking that there is no question of doubting that that word will be kept and that the existing houseboat owners will be protected. But I take the point about the ongoing licences, and I undertake to raise the matter with the county councils concerned and to use my good offices as best I can to pursue the matter. However, the hon. Gentleman will recognise that it is a matter for the new owners, the local authorities, to decide at the end of the day how they intend to manage the canals which they will own.
  Much the most important reason for the delay is that, to our astonishment, when we decided to make this order we had to make 300 modifications to it. Hon. Members representing constituencies in Hampshire will not be surprised to know that that was mainly because of difficulties in Surrey. Where the canal went through parts of residential areas, whereas it was proposed originally to take small bits of the back gardens of 300 residences and other business premises, as a result of our legal advice that was found to be impracticable. In our order we have
  570
  said that the local authorities have to be satisfied with the towpath, and that has meant amending the order in 300 instances. Since each one has had to be done separately, it has put an enormous administrative burden on my Department. That was why it was held up. It was not until the 300 exemptions had been sorted out that we were able to make progress.
  I am grateful to the hon. Member for Woking for the spirit in which he raised this matter. He asked me about one or two specific points. One concerned the certificate of alternative use. Until this evening that had not come to my notice in respect of this canal. I undertake to look at it. I am conscious of the fact that we have had to delay this announcement much longer than we intended. If an appeal is necessary, we shall expedite it by every means that we have in the Department and try to give it priority in order to bring the matter to a determination as soon as possible.
  As for the costs of restoration, it is true that grants can be obtained from the Countryside Commission. We have already notified the commission of our principal determination, so that it is fully in the picture. I feel sure that a mixture of Government money through the Countryside Commission, local authority money and voluntary endeavour is the right approach to canals of this kind, and I undertake to follow up those sentiments in my future discussions with the commission, but, of course, without commitment because it is an independent body and totally free to determine its own grants. But I shall do my best to support the point of view which has been put forward.
  I think that covers all the points raised. It has taken a long time to reach a decision in principle.
  The only other point I should raise is on the question of a certificate of alternative use. When the Government's proposals for acquisition of land become law, they will be of considerable help to local authorities. I, as Minister for Sport, attach a good deal of importance to this, because it will mean that in future when land is bought for sport or recreational purposes, such as this canal, the cost will not be arrived at by some hypothetical alternative use but by existing use.

  571
  The reason why I attach great importance to it is that we are losing too many sports fields and recreational outlets because the cost to local authorities is not that of existing use but is a much more inflated cost which the present law insists upon. So I hope that when we bring our land proposals before the House hon. Members who have spoken tonight will be found supporting us.
  Mr. Onslow: I can never resist provocation. I shall not give the Minister that undertaking, although I am grateful for the hints of support he has given. I shall not go so far as to hold out a hint of a vote in his Lobby, but that is a helpful forecast on his part. I hope that the county council and the owners will bring their discussions to fruition so that we shall not have to trouble him with an appeal. I shall ensure that what he has said is drawn to the attention of those concerned and they will have to form their own judgment as to whether the Minister's forecast is likely to be borne out by events sooner or later.
  Mr. Howell: While the hon. Member for Woking and I like occasionally to venture into the realm of controversy, I hope that the existing owner will understand the position and have more reason to reach an early and sensible agreement with the local authorities concerned.
  I have high hopes that this canal will be added to the others that have opened, particularly the Ashton and Lower Peak Forest Canal, operated by the British Waterways Board, from the centre of Manchester to Cheshire, which has added enormously to the recreational potential in that area. I have high hopes that this will prove to be the case for this canal in Hampshire. Great strides have been taken in Hampshire. On behalf of the Government, I will do all I can constructively to encourage the development of these canals.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at thirteen minutes past One o'clock.

SCOTLAND
  Employment
  Employment
  Forth Road Bridge (Tolls)
  Forth Road Bridge (Tolls)
  Doctors (Pay)
  Doctors (Pay)
  Social Work Act 1968
  Social Work Act 1968
  Rates
  Rates
  Industrial Investment
  Industrial Investment
  Scottish Assembly
  Scottish Assembly
  Criminal Injuries Compensation Board
  Criminal Injuries Compensation Board
  Sheriff Courts
  Sheriff Courts
  Ninewells Hospital
  Ninewells Hospital
  Drumpark Special School
  Drumpark Special School
  Lands (Ownership)
  Lands (Ownership)
  Currie High School
  Currie High School
  Housing (Shetland)
  Housing (Shetland)
  Murder
  Murder
  Rate Poundage
  Rate Poundage
  Stranraer Harbour
  Stranraer Harbour
FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
  Namibia
  Namibia
  Rockall
  Rockall
  European Economic Community
  European Economic Community
  Territorial Waters
  Territorial Waters
ENVIRONMENT
  Motor Vehicles (Bumpers)
  Motor Vehicles (Bumpers)
  Urban Motorways
  Urban Motorways
  Water Authority Staff
  Water Authority Staff
  Unfit Housing
  Unfit Housing
  Road Contracts
  Road Contracts
  A30 (Camborne-Scorrier Bypass)
  A30 (Camborne-Scorrier Bypass)
  Rate Support Grant
  Rate Support Grant
  Compulsory Purchase Order (Camden)
  Compulsory Purchase Order (Camden)
  Rates (London)
  Rates (London)
  Rate Equalisation Scheme (London)
  Rate Equalisation Scheme (London)
  M5 (Devon Link)
  M5 (Devon Link)
  Empty Houses (London)
  Empty Houses (London)
INDUSTRY
  Charity Stamp
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  Chemicals
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  "Scottish Daily News"
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  Iron and Steel
  Iron and Steel
  Departmental Staff
  Departmental Staff
  British Leyland Motor Corporation
  British Leyland Motor Corporation
  Ford Motor Company Ltd.
  Ford Motor Company Ltd.
  Motor Vehicles
  Motor Vehicles
  Meriden Workers' Co-operative and Norton Villiers Triumph
  Meriden Workers' Co-operative and Norton Villiers Triumph
  Transfer Prices (Foreign-owned Companies)
  Transfer Prices (Foreign-owned Companies)
  Kirkby Manufacturing and Engineering Ltd.
  Kirkby Manufacturing and Engineering Ltd.
EMPLOYMENT
  Unemployed Persons (Scotland)
  Unemployed Persons (Scotland)
  Short-time Working
  Short-time Working
  Training Boards (Oil Platform Fabrication)
  Training Boards (Oil Platform Fabrication)
  Apprentice Redundancies
  Apprentice Redundancies
  Training Opportunities Scheme (Suffolk)
  Training Opportunities Scheme (Suffolk)
  Training Boards (Scotland)
  Training Boards (Scotland)
  Disabled Persons
  Disabled Persons
  Process Plant Industry
  Process Plant Industry
  Chemical Industry
  Chemical Industry
  Railways (Eastern Region Dispute)
  Railways (Eastern Region Dispute)
  KIRKCALDY
  KIRKCALDY
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Sheep Scab
  Sheep Scab
  Intervention Board
  Intervention Board
CIVIL SERVICE
  Statutes (Storage Space)
  Statutes (Storage Space)
DEFENCE
  Vehicle Mechanics (Training)
  Vehicle Mechanics (Training)
  Medical Training Establishments
  Medical Training Establishments
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  Somerset House (Theatre Museum)
  Somerset House (Theatre Museum)
  Vandalism
  Vandalism
  Examination Results
  Examination Results
PRICES AND CONSUMER PROTECTION
  Bread Prices
  Bread Prices
ENERGY
  Offshore Oil Development Work
  Offshore Oil Development Work
  North Sea Oil
  North Sea Oil
  Conservation
  Conservation
  Opencast Mining
  Opencast Mining
  Oil Consumption (Scotland)
  Oil Consumption (Scotland)
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Television Licence Fees
  Television Licence Fees
  Violent Criminals
  Violent Criminals
  Police (Pollution Hazards)
  Police (Pollution Hazards)
HOUSE OF COMMONS
  Scottish and Welsh Questions
  Scottish and Welsh Questions
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Russell Peace Foundation
  Russell Peace Foundation
  German Nazi Victims (Pensions)
  German Nazi Victims (Pensions)
  Mortgages and Life Assurance (Tax Relief)
  Mortgages and Life Assurance (Tax Relief)
  Public Expenditure
  Public Expenditure
  Value Added Tax
  Value Added Tax
  Capital Gains Tax
  Capital Gains Tax
SOCIAL SERVICES
  National Health Service (Expenditure)
  National Health Service (Expenditure)
TRADE
  Rockall
  Rockall
  Industrial Democracy
  Industrial Democracy

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock: The Lord Chancellor on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Portsmouth.

THE LORD BISHOP OF SHEFFIELD
William Gordon, Lord Bishop of Sheffield—Was (in the usual manner) introduced between the Lord Bishop of Portsmouth and the Lord Bishop of Wakefield.
THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTER
John Vernon, Lord Bishop of Win-chester—Was (in the usual manner) introduced between the Lord Bishop of Portsmouth and the Lord Bishop of Wakeficld.

EEC: REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT FUND
2.49 p.m.
The Earl of DUDLEY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will give an assurance that they will not be party to any decision in the Council of Ministers as to methods for implementing the Regional Development Fund until there has been adequate time for Parliamentary scrutiny of the proposals and for a debate in this House.
The LORD PRIVY SEAL (Lord Shepherd): My Lords, I have noted the concern expressed in the Minutes of sub-committee " A'" of the European Communities Committee. The Fund regulation is now under discussion in the EEC Council machinery. A decision could be taken at the meeting of the Council on the 3rd and 4th March. An opportunity for debate will be provided
1332
on the 24th February and an amended explanatory memorandum will be pro-vided before then.
The Earl of DUDLEY: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal for the courtesy of his reply— which harmonises perfectly with the co-operation shown by the Government to the sub-committee which has to report to this House on these matters—may I ask him whether the policies of Her Majesty's Government, and, indeed, of the Community, will be made known with regard to the criteria to be adopted for the implementation of the Fund? Further, may I ask whether those poli-cies agree or diverge, and also whether the texts of the amended Regulations will be published before a decision is taken in the Council?
Lord SHEPHERD: My Lords, the position is that before the Council of Ministers at the moment are a series of different texts which are being considered, and Her Majesty's Government are not yet sure which will be finalised. There was a meeting in Brussels yesterday and, as a consequence. I hope that we shall be able to produce the Memorandum of Explanation, which is now given to the Committees both in your Lordships' House and in another place, which the Select Committees can consider and make their observations upon to your Lordships' House. I would not wish to go further at this stage. I took this Question to be one of procedure, and not one of content of the discussions in Brussels.
Lord BLYTON: My Lords, is the Minister aware that it does not seem that at Brussels we shall get much further on the Regional Development Fund? Should we not end all this nonsense and let Parliament, rather than the bureaucrats of Brussels, control the distressed areas of Britain?
Lord SHEPHERD: My Lords, the Question on the Order Paper is very much one of business and of the manner in which your Lordships' House can con-sider the proposals. I do not intend to go any further in dealing with the sub-stance of the Question.
Baroness TWEEDSMUIR of BELHELVIE: My Lords, does the Minister realise that this matter high-lights the problem of the Commission's

1333
proposals, when they are discussed in working groups of the Council of Minis-ters? While we much appreciate the Explanatory Memorandum that will be available, I understand that it will come to hand only shortly before the debate in this House, and with perhaps some slow-ness in printing it will be difficult to have everything ready in time for scrutiny by the House, let alone by the Select Com-mittee. Has the Minister any idea as to how this position could be improved in the future?
Lord SHEPHERD: My Lords, the noble Baroness probably knows more about the difficulties than anyone else in your Lordships' House, because she was the Minister who replied to the debates on the Maybray-King Report, and about how we can improve the position. I repeat the invitation that I gave to the noble Baroness, that my door is always open to her, and if she wishes to come and discuss with me this or any other problems that may arise I shall be only too happy to see what I can do to help.
Baroness TWEEDSMUIR of BELHELVIE: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord.
Lord WIGG: My Lords, may I ask whether my noble friend is aware that there are some signs that he is somewhat confused? It may be that he wishes to answer the Question in procedural terms, but would he be kind enough to read the Question again? Is it not a fact that he is asked to explain what will happen before the implementation of the Regional Development Fund? Is it not a fact, also, under Articies 92 and 93, that when we come to the position of implementa-tion this House and another place have no control at all ; it then passes into the hands of the Commission subject only to the Court of Justice at Luxembourg? Does this not underline the tremendous surrender of sovereignty, which not only calls into question the implementation of the Regional Development Fund, but, if the English language means anything at all, calls into question the Government's Industry Bill and many other measures, because the words used in Article 92 say that aid of any form whatsoever is sub-ject to the interpretation of the Com-mission and, finally, the Court of Justice at Luxembourg.
Lord SHEPHERD: My Lords, this is a matter which we shall clearly have to discuss fully later in the year. But the Question which I have sought to answer is about the way in which I can help your Lordships' House to appreciate and under-stand the proposals in Brussels upon which the Council of Ministers will make their decision. This Fund is of para-mount importance to this country, but it has to be treated in the same way as all other Council proceedings. I think the noble Earl himself has acknowledged that the Government have done all they poss-ibly can—maybe we could improve it—to make information available for the House to make a judgment and to give its advice to its Ministers.
Lord SHINWELL: My Lords, is there a misunderstanding about this Question on the part of my noble friend? May I ask whether it is the case that, accord-ing to the provisions of the Treaty of Rome, which no doubt he must have studied, the Council of Ministers' deci-sion must in the first place go to the Commission? The noble Baroness, Lady Tweedsmuir of Belhelvie, raised the ques-tion of a possible debate on the disposal of the allocation of the Regional Develop-ment Fund, but surely the Commission has first to consider the decision of the Council of Ministers before there can be any question of a debate on that issue here?
Lord SHEPHERD: My Lords, I do not think I have misunderstood this point. My understanding is that the Council of Ministers are now considering a whole series of proposals which have been be-fore them since 1971. They hope that a decision will be taken shortly, by the 3rd or 4th March, which will be binding upon this country, but the Government will have their own decision to make at the Council of Ministers.
Lord WIGG: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that he was a party to a statement on which the Labour Party fought two Elections ; that is, that if they won, they would demand that there should be a retention by Parliament of those powers over the British economy needed to pursue effective regional, industrial and fiscal policies? But if what he says today is the truth, it has

1335
already passed to the Council of Ministers, must come back to the Commis-sion, and finally go to the Court of Jus-tice at Luxembourg, over which neither this House nor another place have any control whatsoever?
Lord SHEPHERD: My Lords, I am fully aware of the issues upon which we fought the last Election. At the moment, no decision has been taken by the Coun-cil of Ministers; negotiations are still proceeding, and we hope that we shall be able to put before the Select Committee, through a Memorandum, what the Coun-cil of Ministers will be required to decide upon.
Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE: My Lords, may I ask whether the noble Lord is aware that we on the Opposition side—at any rate, the great majority of us—do not think that the Government are in any con-fusion about this matter? We believe that the Regional Development Fund may prove of great advantage to this country and we rather resent the attempts of some of his noble friends to turn it into anti-Market propaganda.
Lord SHEPHERD: My Lords, whether that is the "kiss of death", I do not know. But I thank the noble and learned Lord for his comments.
Lord CHELWOOD: My Lords, will the noble Lord be a little more forth-coming outside procedural matters? Is it the position that Her Majesty's Gov-ernment wish to ensure that there is national control over any EEC funds provided for regional aid, but that the Community wants to make sure that any funds provided have every prospect of maintaining existing levels of employ-ment? If that is the case, surely there should be no great difficulty in reconcil-ing those two positions?
Lord SHEPHERD: My Lords, I hope there will be no difficulty in reconciling those two positions.
Lord PARGITER: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether or not, in the event of terms not being satisfactory, the British Minister will have the power of veto?
Lord SHEPHERD: My Lords, there is a requirement of a unanimous decision
1336
by all the Ministers at Brussels. There-fore, unless the British Government agree there can be no agreement.
Lord WIGG: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that if I am engaging in anti-Common Market propaganda so also was the Daily Telegraph yesterday, when it was seeking to excuse Mr. Heath for doing exactly the same thing as the Government are now seeking to do?
Lord SHEPHERD: My Lords, my noble friend referred to the Manifesto. May I say that I stand by the Manifesto, and that I seek to renegotiate the terms and then to put the matter to the country so that it can make its own decision.
The Earl of DUDLEY: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal, while declaring an interest, whether he is aware that every effort will be made by the relevant sub-committee to produce a report for this House in time for the debate which the noble Lord has announced will take place on Monday week?
Lord SHEPHERD: My Lords, I will certainly do what I can to help the sub-committee under the noble Earl, and for the convenience of your Lordships' House.

CRUELTY TO ANIMALS BILL [H.L.]
Baroness PHILLIPS: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to restrict cer-tain experiments on animals. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read la. —(Baroness Phillips.)
On Question, Bill read la, and to be printed.

ENERGY CONSERVATION
3.3 p.m.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL rose to call attention to the pressing need for more effective measures for the conservation of energy and the protection of the balance of payments ; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, in calling attention to the pressing need for more effective measures for the conservation of energy

1337
and the protection of the balance of pay-ments, I feel that I cannot do better than remind the House of the simple economic philosophy of that well-known character, Mr. Micawber, who said this:
"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen, nineteen six, result happi-ness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds, ought and six, result misery. The blossom is blighted, the leaf is withered, the god of day goes down upon the dreary scene ; in short, you are for-ever floored."
The Government may recognise them-selves in what Charles Dickens went on to say:
"To make his example more impressive, Mr. Micawber drank a glass of port with an air of great enjoyment and satisfaction and whistled the College Hornpipe."
My Lords, the trouble about the bal-ance of payments is that we have been so bludgeoned by the sheer enormity of the deficits that we have built up that we are numb. We used to worry about a deficit in the region of £500 million a year which was offset by our invisible earnings. Now, largely as a result of a fivefold increase in the price of oil, these deficits are running in the region of £4,000 million a year. Oil imports are costing this country £10 million a day and, even making the rather bold assump-tion that I shall not trespass too long upon the patience of your Lordships this afternoon, the chances are that we shall be worse off by a quarter of a million pounds by the time I have finished speaking.
Lord SHINWELL: My Lords, could not we save even more if the noble Lord stopped speaking now?
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, I only hope I have the sharpness of wit that the noble Lord has when I reach his exalted age.
My Lords, our purpose this afternoon is to ask the Government what they are doing about a frightening situation to urge them to act to tackle certain aspects of it with greater vigour and a greater sense of urgency. I should first like to try to debunk the idea of salvation lying in a lowering of the oil price of the OPEC cartel. Most informed opinion now seems to agree that there are very few reasons for believing that this will happen, even after the meteoric rise which
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happened over a period of only a few months when the price went up from two dollars a barrel to around 10 dollars a barrel, and even though that oil is prob-ably costing something like 20 cents a barrel in the Middle East. There is a school of thought that says that the price will come back to seven or eight dollars. I hope to show that this does not affect the argument but, in any case, it goes further than that.
There is now talk, particularly in the United States and the International Energy Agency, as well as in other coun-tries, about finding ways to establish a guaranteed floor price of about eight dollars a barrel. The purpose is to encourage, by the underpinning of the huge investments needed, the develop-ment of indigenous and more secure alternative sources of supply by protect-ing those investments against what is now called in popular jargon, the " down-side risk ". The other side of the coin is the danger that we could be getting into here. It is one of which I have to be well aware, and it is that we could be committing ourselves to a high cost energy policy in this country so that if the price came down the rest of the world would have an advantage over us. In this connection, it will be interest-ing to hear from the Government about their attitude to the International Energy Agency's recent deliberations in Paris, where I believe there were discussions about conservation measures and prices which are now matters of international concern, most particularly to the oil-importing countries.
However, my Lords, the real point that I want to make is this. We must assume that for the foreseeable future we shall be living with energy costing vastly more than the kind of figures we have been accustomed to for the last 50 years. The main argument is not altered whether the increase is by a factor of three, four or five. In an article in the current issue of the authoritative American magazine Foreign Affairs, five international authors discussed the implications of the rise in the oil price and suggested that, even if the oil price dropped as low as six dollars—which, as I have said, is deemed to be unlikely— the transfer burden among the oil import-ing countries would still be 400 billion dollars a year, as against the present

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level of 600 billion dollars a year with the price at 10 dollars.
The MINISTER of STATE for ENERGY (Lord Balogh): My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord about that figure of 600 billion dollars? Is that a per annum figure? What is the period?
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, I have not brought the magazine with me, but I have written down " 600 billions a year ". However, I will check it and will let the noble Lord know if I have got it wrong. I was going on to say that I would leave it to the bankers and the economists, including the noble Lord, who understand matters such as the re-cycling of petro-dollars so much better than I do—at least, I hope they do. But, at the present time, the light that we see at the end of the tunnel, and the something which we hope will turn up, is of course our own oil from the Continental Shelf around the islands. It had better turn up, my Lords, because we are daily borrowing vast sums against the prospect of getting this oil. Let us keep a sense of proportion about this, too.
We are now being told that, even in the biggest fields, North Sea oil is to cost four dollars a barrel and it may be five dollars a barrel for the less prolific fields. The investment required to win this oil is now coming to something of the order of £3.000 per barrel per day. So to achieve our target of 2 million barrels a day which we require to be self-sufficient —that is, 100 million tons a year—will require an investment of the order of £6,000 million by 1980. I would assume that the interest rates on those borrowings must come to something of the order of £1,000 million a year.
It is an unfortunate fact, my Lords, that there is increasing evidence every day that the Government are only paying lip service to their laudable declared aim to extract North Sea oil as fast as possible. Their preoccupation with what I can call only political posturing over participa-tion, and their somewhat inflexible and unrealistic attitudes to the tax régime— motivated I can assume only by a fear that somebody may make a large profit in return for all the risks and the trouble taken—has led company after company to admit that they are holding back
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while the present uncertainties prevail. We have had other opportunities, and we shall be having further opportunities, to discuss this point.
I wanted to bring the point up just in case the Government's view may have been coloured by the seductive siren song of the ebullient and, I think, grossly over-optimistic Professor Odell. He is con-vinced that there is three times as much oil in the North Sea, as are all the geologists of all the oil companies who have made all the explorations. He claims there is enough oil for us to be exporters well into the 21st century and that we shall make Europe independent in its oil imports. The great danger of this kind of thinking is that it follows that there is a suggestion that no great urgency exists for energy conservation measures or investment to develop nuclear power or the alternative sources of energy. Yet we find that the EEC, in its recent document Rational Use of Energy, gives first priority to energy conservation with a target of 15 per cent, by 1985, rising to 25 per cent, by the turn of the century.
We now come to the question of the time-scale. I was very glad to hear last week in the discussion of the Offshore Petroleum Development (Scotland) Bill the noble Lord reasserting that the target is still to be independent of energy imports by 1980, despite the setbacks and delays to which I claim the Government have contributed. But this underlines the point that we should now be concentrating on those measures which will yield substantial results within five years; that must surely be the priority. Thereafter the urgency is somewhat less and the considerations are somewhat different. Making the optimistic assumption that we shall succeed in surviving what are now known as the macro-economic problems of the next five years—of absorbing the transfer of money to the oil-producing States—we may, by that time, hope that the drain on our balance of payments will have begun to ease.
However, at the same time let us not lose sight of the longer-term case. The sprint of urgent energy-saving measures that we need over the next five years will serve to put us into good training for the marathon which confronts us in the years ahead as our finite resources begin to become exhausted over a period of,

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perhaps, 40 years ahead. So for once we find the short-term measures are consistent with our longer-term needs at the same time, and furthermore we shall be on the side of what I might call the environmental angels argument, for nearly all forms of consumption have adverse environmental effects in terms both of pollution and of visual impact. The less energy we waste the less we shall have to contend with problems of pollution by oil spills, dust, smoke, heat, smell, noise and radio-active waste, and the more manageable will be the impact of things like opencast mines, slag heaps, power lines, mammoth power stations and refineries.
At this point it might be a good idea if I could clear up a certain confusion which surrounds the word "conservation ". It has been rather an over-used word recently. For today's purposes I take my definition from the OECD book-let Energy Prospects to 1985 in which it is stated:
"Energy conservation may be defined as the reduction in the amount of energy consumed without significant reduction in gross domestic product, general standard of living or level of personal comfort."
The booklet goes on to draw a distinction between this and what it calls
"… demand restraint by Government regulation, the latter being applicable mainly in emergency situations."
But, unfortunately, the word "conservation" is also used in a technical sense by the oil companies when they refer to the control of the rates of depletion for oilfield management purposes. It is also used of course by the environmentalists when they discuss measures to protect the environment, and the admirable all-Party Conservation Committee chaired by my noble friend Lord Craigton is a good example of the use of the word in this sense. But in the sense that we are dis-cussing conservation today I find it infinitely regrettable that the Government have played politics in this matter. Let us just look at the recent history.
A year ago when the Election was called we were reeling under the com-bined onslaught from the OPEC cartel from without and the miners' strike from within. We were experiencing speed limits, the three day week and the cuts in public services. In passing, it is
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interesting to note how little our production was adversely affected by the three day week and some of the remarkable economies which were made—not with-out considerable pain in a number of areas—most notably in the Armed Forces, which I experienced myself. What happened in February? The Labour Government are returned. Everything is all right—relax. The Conservative-generated crisis is over. Forget the three day week. Give the miners anything they ask. Bury the tension in the trade union movement under a smoke-screen of a bromide called the Social Compact which mysteriously, by the honeyed words of Messrs. Foot and Wilson, becomes a totally phoney animal known as the Social Contract, but it is of course no such thing. In these intervening months, visitors to this country from places like America—which are infinitely less dependent on imported energy than we are—were amazed to discover that the energy crisis appeared to have gone away. Twelve months later we find that Minis-ters are belatedly bleating that perhaps the energy crisis has not gone away after all.
My Lords, it is small wonder that at times the politicians' stock stands exceedingly low. However, we look on the bright side—perhaps the Government are beginning to see the light. The question is: are they doing enough and are they doing it in the right direction? One of the ways of easing demands upon our fossil fuel resources is by exploiting alternative sources of energy, the sun, the wind, the tide and the waves. Perhaps the noble Lord will be able to tell us what the Government's attitude is to these possibilities, always bearing in mind our particular interest in prospects which will yield an early return but also remembering that the five-fold increase in energy costs has had a very important effect on the economics of some of these non-conventional power sources. The present fashion is to dismiss all these suggestions of substitution or alternative energy sources as too long term to be immediately relevant, yet there are on the market at the present time solar panels which can make a useful contribution. Recently I was given some figures of what is called the heat pump. Perhaps I should explain that the heat pump uses the principle of the radiator at the back

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of a refrigerator to extract the heat out of the ground and use it as a high-grade heat inside the building, and, indeed, it can be reversed in the summer to do the opposite thing. This is showing a 15 per cent, return and is using one-third the amount of electricity which would otherwise be used in an electrically-heated house. And let us bear in mind that electricity generation is itself only some 30 per cent, efficient.
So the question is: are we doing enough to co-ordinate and direct efforts of this kind? Should we be providing more money through the medium of agencies like the NRDC to turn some of these projects into immediately applicable technology? The scope for energy saving is enormous. Over half of all the energy used in European countries is wasted, and one of the worst offenders is electricity generation and distribution, which runs at around 30 per cent, to 25 per cent. efficiency. Great efforts are being made to improve this efficiency, usually by scaling up the size of the power station from megawatt size to what we now have to call gigawatt size, with the consequent problems that arise from that. So the single largest potential area for energy saving is in this two-thirds of the heat which is wasted up unsightly cooling towers all over the country. Smaller stations might be able to use the rejected heat for either industrial processes or district heating. Also, have any efforts been made to find industrialists who would be attracted to the sites of these big stations by large quantities of free or very cheap heat which could be made available to them?
If we are looking for imaginative long-term projects, I understand that the Severn Barrage has recently been re-examined —possibly the noble Lord could tell us whether there is a Report about to become available, as I believe there is. This may well show that the investment requited for power from this source would not be much more costly in capital than the equivalent in conventional power sources. And, of course, to somebody who sat on a recent Committee on Leisure and Sport in this country, the prospect of creating an inland lake bigger than the whole of the Solent and within easy reach of the industrial Midlands is enormously attractive—
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although I accept that I am now straying away from my own self-imposed limit of talking about the short-term projects.
In face of all these opportunities, is one not tempted to say that the Government have so far been pursuing trivial and half-hearted measures?—a few tax concessions in terms of rapid write-off of investment here, a £3 million fund for fuel conserva-tion measures, an advertising campaign that strikes me as being very déjà-vue, and some unenforceable speed limits. In this latter connection, the EEC Report to which I referred is interesting. They pointed out that energy waste in transport is 83 per cent., and they made a number of observations—I pick out three. Diesel engines are 30 per cent, more efficient than petrol engines and cause less pollution ; radial ply tyres reduce consumption by 1·5 per cent, and incidentally last longer and are safer. Some German trains apparently use more energy for heating the train than they do for traction. But the interesting point is that the Report never once mentions speed limits. The Government must be aware that 40 per cent, of our energy is used by industry. I would agree that if you are going to clobber anybody it is probably better to clobber the domestic consumer rather than the industrial consumer, but all the studies agree that energy savings of the order of 10 per cent, or 15 per cent. are available without an adverse effect on efficiency or comfort, and are indeed economically justifiable. These methods could mean a saving of between £1 million and £2 million a day.
Because the change has come upon us so fast, we have got to accelerate our rate of adapting to it, and a policy of the "stick and the carrot" is going to be needed. Disagreeable as it may be, there is no doubt that the most effective energy-saving mechanism will be the price mechanism. In farming circles there is an old saying, "High rents are good manure". This, I think, is the philosophy which we shall have to apply to energy saving. Here let us give credit to the Government. They have shown courage in this respect, and recently we have found Mr. "8·6 per cent. " Healey talking of using the social security system to alleviate hardship caused by rising prices, in preference to the absurd blunt-edged weapon of trying to hold down prices by subsidy. If we are to avoid the

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anomalies which market distortions can impose upon us we shall have to face a gradual adaptation to realistic relative prices for things like off-peak electricity. Natural gas is an example. I seem to remember that the noble Lord, Lord Balogh, is something of an expert on the subject of the price of natural gas, but the fact is that by pricing natural gas unduly low at the present time we have a shortage of supply, while at the same time all exploration for natural gas in the southern North Sea has come to a standstill.
We shall have to bring home to domes-tic and industrial consumers alike that investment in energy saving, and most particularly in insulation and draught proofing, is worth doing. The expertise exists, the materials can be produced. Many of these measures pay for them-selves in one year, and there are a great many others which take three years to pay off, but these are attractive rates of return. In the domestic sphere alone we are talking about expenditure more like £300 million than £3 million. The Government, I think, have at last realised that the advance corporation tax proposal, which was so unfortunately introduced in the Budget last year, has seriously exacerbated the liquidity problem, so could we not make available short-term loans repayable out of the fuel economies achieved?
Pursuing the "stick and carrot " theme, I ask, why not initiate a programme of energy audits on the lines of the fire precautions for hotels? Business over a certain size should produce an energy audit with a proposed programme of implementation. Short-term loans could then be made available to meet the cost of the audit and the economy measures if they were started within, say, three years. Thereafter we might insist that an audit should be made at the company's expense, and measures which could be demon-strated to be economically viable would have to be undertaken at the expense of the company. This leads me to wonder whether there might be a case for resuscitating the old National Fuel Efficiency Service which was disbanded not many years ago. Above all, it is clear that we need to do all we can to stimulate investment in new plant, new building and improvements in old equipment and better control devices. All these things
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will yield a good return. In passing, my Lords, should we not look at the disincentives of the rating system? It would be much more encouraging to any-body who was going to spend money on improved efficiency if he were told that he would not be up-rated within a period of, say, five years.
Is this the kind of question which will be covered in the joint survey which, I understand, is being undertaken by the Department of Energy and the CBI? I shall be interested to know whether the noble Lord can tell us when this joint survey is going to report. Going on from there, I should like to ask another question regarding the Advisory Council on Energy Saving under Professor Hawthorne. Could the Miinster tell us what exactly it is intended to do and whether the Council will keep in touch with industry—because, if so, it seems odd that there is not on the council a representative of the industrial consumer or of somebody like the CBI. The real point in this whole field is that exhortation is not enough and cash is short. The Minister will have to play the role of the doctor who forces the reluctant patient to take the medicine for his own good and to cure the epidemic which is affecting the whole of our nation. We have overspent our quarter of a million ; but I have nearly done.
My Lords, I have tried once again this afternoon to call attention to the pre-carious position created by an adverse balance of payments as a result of the meteoric rise in the price of oil, from the effects of which it would be unrealistic to hope for an early respite. I believe that the Government have faltered on the supply side. They have frightened off the oil companies in attempting to placate their own Left Wing and thereby are delaying the more rapid exploitation of the North Sea. So far, they have failed to augment our coal supplies and have shown little interest in promoting immediate schemes for augmenting sup-plies from non-fossil or non-conventional sources. I believe that the energies devoted by the Government to those disturbing influences like the Industry Act, the participation in the North Sea and the creeping nationalisation which lurks behind the facade of the Off-Shore Petroleum Bill, which we have been discussing recently, would have been better

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directed to a convincing and systematic approach to energy saving on a comprehensive scale, including, I hope, some positive measures as well as purely instructive ones.
We might, in a special sense, say that, like Nero, the Government are fiddling while Britain burns. In saying this, I may be unfair to the Government; perhaps they are doing more than we realise. Certainly there are signs of dawning enlightenment. There is said to be much job in Heaven over the sinner that repenteth. A the risk of mixing my metaphors, I can only say that this particular prodigal son bears an unhappy resemblance to a chicken coming home to roost.
What I believe is beyond dispute is that the Government have so far failed utterly to communicate to the anxious people of this country any sense of urgency or seriousness of purpose about energy saving ; and I think that it is about time that they got on with it. I beg to move for Papers.
3.35 p.m.
Lord BALOGH: My Lords, despite the harsh words, albeit delivered in his usual gentle and winning way, about all our policies—and I thought that there was in this haché, rechauffé hotchpotch all the ingredients of all our policies at all times—I am personally very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, for having raised this all-important global and, I would almost say, planetary problem. I must in passing, however, slightly protest against the noble Lord and his friends accusing us of having caused exchange crises, because much before the increase in the oil price the balance of payments, which was highly positive under us, turned very sour under the late Leader of the Conservative Party who has now been replaced, to the admiration of all of us—and, certainly, of us males—by a beautiful woman.
Neither do I think that noble Lords opposite ought to complain about the Social Contract; seeing that their Party also had a social contract, only it misfired because of ill-will on the part of the then Government. I am not going into these matters. I shall take the word "conservation" as defined not in the very large encyclopaedia, but in the
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smaller Oxford Dictionary, as " the saving of energy ". In dealing with our measures I think I shall be able to show that on the whole the noble Lord was not entirely justified—obviously, we are all dissatisfied ; life is imperfect in the human condition and we are dissatisfied with its imperfection—and that we have done more than one would have gathered from the noble Lord's speech.
My Lords, the massive way of using energy is the most important characteristic, indeed the basis, of modern civilisation. Even ten score years ago life was much as it was a hundred score years ago. The invention of steam power, electricity and the internal combustion engine—not to say rocket burning and nuclear energy—all in the last 200 years is that which differentiates today so fundamentally from even the recent past and from Babylon or Memphis. This explosive increase in the need for energy, especially in the need for oil, is the sustenance and moulder of our often distasteful way of life. In a light-hearted way, the great industrial nations took for granted the supply of oil in ever-increasing quantities. Most, if not all, the territories whence we derived our supplies of oil, were direct or indirect dependencies of Western Europe or North America, who thus secured the main advantages. The rise, in the shape of the Soviet Union, of a competing system had for some time no impact on this problem. Until the autumn of 1973 we continued to enjoy the luxury of cheap energy from Africa and the Middle East. The pundits, as usual, predicted an inexorable trend whereby coal would be replaced by oil because it was more flexible as the main source of energy. Accordingly, the mining industry was left to languish and shrink in Europe even more than in this country.
I am not a great student of the Hudson Institute, which sells its shoddy, pseudo-intellectual products in a snide and credulous market. I am sure that if they had written (and I do not know whether or not they have) a treatise on the future of oil in 1973 they would, no doubt, have extrapolated not merely the decrease of coal but the parabolic increase in the production and consumption of oil. It was left to the other epicentre of futuristic nonsense, the Club of Rome, and the sinister computer

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of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology to point to the doom and death of the planet if the irreplaceable resources of energy and raw materials were exhausted by mad prodigality. This doomsday cry was taken up by one of the most fashionable members of the high international establishment—I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, knows who I mean—and secured wide, if undue, notice. We, my Lords, are not in this gloom business today—
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: Thank God for that!
Lord BALOGH: —though, no doubt, one of them one day will try to frighten the rest of us. It is, after all, a very nice theme, philosophic in depth and all-embracing in its consequences. What we are facing is not a shortage of energy, but the quadrupling of the price of the most indispensable element of our civilisation. What we are facing is the need to adjust to the sudden sundering of the base of our mode of life. Dooms-day would approach slowly with dawning realisation that would stimulate research, say, in fusion plasma technology—this was a point which, rather interestingly, the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, did not mention. It is important because it should lead to the discovery of new materials for energy to be used in combination with others. Scarcity due to exhaustion of reserves would not come silent as a thief in the night, but would be predictable. Therefore one can take measures.
Though morally an adjustment from a wasteful to a saving society might be very satisfying, it is difficult in the extreme in practice to persuade oneself and others not to switch on the light or the heat in the home, not to use the washing machine or other labour-saving machines or not to get into the car to lighten the burdens of shopping. The Hoover is useless without electricity and without a Hoover our wives would be in a bad way indeed. Electricity at the margin is equivalent to oil. It is not easy to change the basis not merely of consumption but also of production. So I would beseech noble Lords who are to follow me—they are not so numerous as I thought they would be—not to underestimate the difficulties. We have to
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change habits which have grown up since the last century.
It is, of course, so easy to decry efforts or criticise policy without offering practical alternatives. Indeed, when my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Energy announced his interim package of 9th December, he met with instant and, if I may say so, not very thoughtful critic-ism to the effect that it was inadequate. But when asked to put forward practical suggestions for consideration, most critics either fell silent or returned to the subject of the illumination of public buildings or reducing street lighting. Those ideas were considered for the 9th December package, but were rejected at the time because savings would not be great and there were disadvantages—in terms of crime and accidents, for instance, with regard to street lighting—in putting them into practice. But we have not ruled out these and other proposals for later action. We have not ruled out anything. I can assure the noble Lord that we shall study his speech with the same care that he put into it when he wrote it, and we shall ensure that the various suggestions are considered. However, I must confess that, on the first hearing—by a visual type and not an oral type—they did not really impress me as immediately practicable, but perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, will deal with this part of the question.
We have not ruled out any of these or other proposals for later action, but I must repeat that there are no simple solutions. If energy saving is to be effective its effectiveness will be achieved by helf-help on the part of individuals and firms and not by Government first. This will take much time and effort if real hardship is not to be endured by not inconsiderable groups of people. There is much that can be saved from what was a profligate use of energy. We must stop various forms of power heating and, also, light in competing for new custom. But when all is said and done it will be an extremely difficult task.
Our publicity campaign, of which I hope noble Lords will have seen something—indeed, I hear that a certain illumination from the last century was brought into the mind's eye of the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal—will bring home to all sections of the community that we need to save energy,

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the true nature of the problem and the need to change attitudes and behaviour, which is very difficult. Our programme must be steady, capable of being sustained for a period of years and must take account of the energy situation as it develops. We have not been altogether unsuccessful, given the complexity of the problem. I shall come to that in a moment, but I stress that what has been done is by no means the end of the story. If real progress is to be made in the programme, it is essential to understand the nature of the problem and analyse its forms. This, I think the noble Lord has done. He pointed to the price situation and to the problem of the balance of payments which obviously is extremely important; but here again I would not on the whole frighten people. This country is in a very fortunate position in this whole field. It has the only really modem coal industry in Europe.
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: We should have heard a bit more about that from noble Lords opposite.
Lord BALOGH: As to the North Sea, I would not go so far as Professor Odell and I would not accept imaginative American public relations officers' stories given to credulous journadists about what is happening there. If I were an oil magnate—alas! I am not an oil magnate—I would behave exactly as they do. Obviously, they have to frighten us. Obviously, like a good buyer or a good seller of a suit, one has to pretend that what he is buying is worth nothing and the other has to pretend that the money paid is of no value.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROY: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lord for one moment? Has he ever met a credulous journalist?
Lord BALOGH: Numerous ones, my Lords, especially those who cannot study the problem at first-hand but have to accept Press releases. The American companies are extraordinarily adept at giving out Press releases when it is too late for homework to be done, and there-fore a statement has to be accepted because it is news.
It is essential to understand that it is not within the power of Central Government to dictate necessary changes in out-
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look and habit. Its role is to do all it can to ensure that necessary adaptations are made. The noble Lord pointed to the "slap-happy" way in which we came into Office and the very strong position that we inherited, and mentioned the attitude which he and his friends have towards the trade unions. I am not saying that all we have done is faultless, but at least we have tried. We recognised the need for action, and since the end of the crisis last winter we have taken certain positive steps. In April 1974, an energy technology support unit was established at Harlow to assist the Department of Energy in assessing scientific and techno-logical options in the energy field, including conservation. We are not back-ward in studying solar energy and other things. Unfortunately, enormous investment and very slow yield is the answer. The noble Lord wanted to heat houses with the English sun. Coming from Hungary, I am sceptical about the practicability of that. The unit also monitors the progress of relevant research and development abroad.
In June 1974, the Secretary of State outlined his preliminary programme of action, and in July 1974 the Central Policy Review Staff Report on Energy Conservation was published to promote discussion. During the next few months the Advisory Council on Energy Conservation was set up under the chairman-ship of Professor Sir William Hawthorne to give expert, independent advice to the Secretary of State. The Council has been meeting monthly and has set up a lot of investigating teams and working parties to study different aspects and areas. Then the Department of the Environment published a very useful leaflet. In November 1974, the Chancellor announced in his Budget speech several energy conservation measures, the most important of which was the decision that subsidies to nationalised fuel industries should be phased out as fast as possible.
One of the most important means of achieving energy conservation is to price energy at its true cost. Last year the price for domestic coal was increased on average by 23 per cent. to the consumer and the price of industrial coal rose even more—on average by 79 per cent. Electricity for domestic consumers went up on average by about 30 per cent. The price of gas went up by nearly

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30 per cent. on average for non-domestic tariffs. I must tell the noble Lord opposite that gas development is going on very steadily indeed. In fact, of course, the enormous demand arose because we secured cheap gas from the companies, and to complain that we have secured cheap gas for domestic and certain valuable industrial purposes is really taking criticism a bit too far.
Then on 9th December the Secretary of State announced a twelve point pack-age of measures to save energy, making it clear that the Government intend to extend and reinforce those measures in the future. The major elements of that package, the details of which I gave to your Lordships at the time, were a loan scheme ; oil price increases to be weighted on petrol to discourage imports of motor spirit—which, of course, is of higher value than crude oil. Other measures included a programme to cut fuel bills for Government buildings ; a reduction in maximum speed limits ; a compulsory limit on heating levels in buildings ; the approximate doubling of the standard of thermal insulation required for new dwellings ; a restriction on the use of electricity for external display and advertising ; a request to companies to make a commitment to energy saving by including statements in their annual reports, which I hope will be stimulating ; and, finally, the launching of a major publicity campaign. There are two main complementary objectives underlying these measures and any that we may take in the future. They are to get savings which could have a significant impact on the balance of payments in the short term, without disproportionate hardship or damage to the economy; and to change the general attitude.
Future measures under consideration are many. The measures taken so far are by no means the end of the story. We are still considering many proposals, including some suggested by the noble Lord. However, the form those future measures might take obviously depends very much on the response to the measures, both voluntary and statutory, which we have already taken, and the degree and endurance of the effort forthcoming as a result of our publicity campaign. The Government are convinced that before any further decision on conservation is made, the possible effects must be weighed very carefully to ensure over-
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all saving in energy economically achieved. Then, too, the importance of other social and economic effects must obviously be taken into account. It is all too easy to propose the introduction of laws and regulations, such as the banning of the use of cars in city centres or providing for the introduction of petrol rationing.
Perhaps at this point I should say something about two proposals for energy saving which have been discussed in the newspapers lately. They are two-tier petrol pricing, and electricity and gas tariffs. Two-tier petrol pricing is one of those actions—such as reducing street lighting or banning floodlighting which I mentioned earlier—which the Government have been considering, No decisions have yet been taken. It is an extremely complex problem, because it depends on the margin between the two and the amount of petrol which is available at the basic price, which will really decide that the action is not "back-firing" or tending to be counter-productive. It is a very complicated problem. Then we have all those who think they are entitled to extra on the basic ration. I beseech your Lordships to believe me when I say that we are looking very carefully at these problems, but we find it extremely difficult to make any pronouncement as yet. It has been suggested that gas and electricity tariffs should be "inverted", so that a higher average price should be charged as consumption increases. The idea is sometimes advanced on energy conservation grounds, and sometimes on the ground that it is socially desirable to help the small consumer. It is necessary to keep in mind that what is involved in these complex two-part tariff structures is a situation which has been produced by what has happened earlier. A number of your Lordships now present will have noticed the persecution that a formidable Baroness has meted out to me on night heaters. No one who has gone through that experience would very easily under-take measures which might bring about a repetition of that ordeal.
As I said, it is necessary to keep in mind what is involved in these complex two-part tariff structures and, in particular, to avoid the misconception that at present they work to help large consumers at the expense of small consumers. They do not, since the two parts of the

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tariff pay for different things. The standing charge or its equivalent in the higher initial rates contributes to costs which do not vary with consumption. Once this is paid the rates within the particular tariff are the same for all units consumed. The prime need for energy conservation is to raise the general price level for these fuels. Beyond this, any radical inversion of the present structures would of course penalise the heavy, poorer consumers. Under the new domestic gas tariffs introduced on the 1st January there were proportionately greater increases for larger consumers. The same thing happens in electricity.
In all this we must remember that legal sanctions are not the only, or indeed the best, form of enforcement in a long-term programme of this nature. One should not, and cannot, force a person to change habits acquired over years. As our publicity campaign makes clear, " Energy sense is common sense ". This is the message to put across. Saving energy is not something to be done simply to comply with the law ; it should be accepted by all as sound economic sense and sound moral sense. Even where legislation has been introduced, as in the case of the new heating and lighting restrictions, our hope is to secure compliance and savings by voluntary, willing observance of the new standards.
The effects of the measures announced on the 9th December are difficult to quantify for several reasons. The effects of certain measures cannot be accurately estimated since practices prevalent prior to the 9th December were not properly known. We do not know, for example, the temperatures to which buildings were heated just before the limits on heating were announced. It is of course said that if the Americans would put the thermostat in the winter at 70 and in the summer at 78 degrees, instead of doing the reverse, as everybody who has visited American universities in the summer can testify, they could cure their problem. But with us it is more difficult The inborn Puritanism of the English has always made for very bad heating in the houses.
The effect of energy price increases, in particular the increases in electricity prices, will also have tended to promote conservation. Energy consumption is also affected by the level of economic
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activity, and this will be reflected in the figures for consumption. It is therefore confusing to quote published statistics when evaluating the degree of energy savings achieved. It is also worth remembering that the 9th December measures should not be viewed in isolation and that energy savings are likely to result from other steps taken—I have given the Budget as an example.
I am very pleased to be able to tell your Lordships that the evidence is that people are aware of the situation and are exercising restraint. Last year, for example, the Department's estimate of the country's energy use was reduced by 2 per cent. I do not, however, wish to set individual targets, which might in some cases be inequitable. Some people already use energy efficiently and might find targets impossible to meet ; others with considerable scope for improvement might be persuaded to stop short before full potential had been reached. Nevertheless, the Government fully appreciate the enormous problems involved, particularly with industry facing severe cash flow difficulties. The energy-saving loan scheme is a measure we considered essential to help industry in this respect. The response so far has been encouraging, and some nine hundred inquiries have been received by the Department. Urgent discussions with local authority associations about energy saving in schools, local authority housing and other buildings are taking place. The Department of Health and Social Security are carrying out similar activities concerning local hospitals, social service buildings, et cetera. A number of companies have informed the Department of their intention to appoint conservation officers, and in some cases to set up fuel advising committees. This is encouraging. Finally, our publicity campaign will have some effect, we hope.
May I now refer very briefly, because I do not think they should be left unanswered, to some points in the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, which in my opinion are not altogether germane to the discussion. First of all, may I tell him that his figures are subject to revision. I shall revise them and communicate the revision to him in writing. If he wants them pub-lished, obviously I have no complaint to make. The other very common misconception which he repeated and which I

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must answer (despite my limit of 30 minutes ; I shall be within his limit, so it is all right) is that the Americans, especially American companies, are looking for better pastures. I should like to see those better pastures. What is interesting about the American moods is that they are rather harsher on their friends, as we are, than on their enemies, as are some of the Middle Eastern countries. They take the things others do to them apparently with greater pacific resignation and they are rather concerned that we should do something very different, something much fairer, something which is absolutely essential if our balance of payments is to be safeguarded. Let me tell the noble Lord that if we did not act and if we did not participate we should not know how much it would affect the balance of payments, only it would not be in visible trade but in invisible trade.
Secondly, the kind of announcements which have been made are misleading in the sense that not all activity is decreasing, but certain increases have been postponed. Never were there so many explorations and exploitation rigs and platforms in the North Sea as at the present moment. No agreement has been reached about Dr. Kissinger's imaginative plan to underwrite prices in consumer countries, but negotiations are afoot and therefore I do not wish to say any more about it. In due course, I have no doubt, given the importance of the matter for us, it will be debated. My Lords, the balance-of-payments situation demands and common sense dictates an energy conservation programme. I think the lines which we have followed are the right ones. Much has been done, but much more will follow.
4.8 p.m.
Lord AVEBURY: My Lords, I am not at all sure that your Lordships' House is the best forum in which to debate energy conservation, interesting though the two speeches to which we have just listened may have been, because we tend to get a mixture of allegations of political posturing, such as we had from the noble Lord who initiated the debate, and partially-informed attempts to deal with the laws of thermodynamics, which again, if I may say so with the greatest respect to the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, are not altogether successful. I
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am not sure that a Chamber composed as is your Lordships' House is competent to deal with these matters, especially in comparison with the enormous volume of expertise which is available to the Government and indeed to anyone who wishes to look at the matter—from the NEDO Report on Energy Conservation, for instance, and the enormous amount of discussion which takes place in all the technical journals and which is freely available to any member of the public. If we want to go into technical details we have not the time to do it in a 20 or 30 minute speech. Although I feel greatly tempted to follow the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona, in some of the suggestions he made, I will except in one or two instances resist that temptation.
However, I must take up first of all, as the noble Lord, Lord Balogh, has, Lord Strathcona's allegation that political interference by the Government is having a disastrous effect on the programme of North Sea exploration. I do so with a sense of déjà vu, because I remember that at the time of the debates on the Gas (Borrowing Powers) Bill of 1967, the new Leader of the Conservative Party, Mrs. Margaret Thatcher, who was then leading from the Opposition Front Bench as spokesman on fuel and power, several times made the allegation that because the Government were being so harsh in the terms that they were offering to Amoco and all the other companies who were operating in the southern sector of the North Sea, they would drive all the exploration rigs across to the other side, where they would be fully engaged in drilling in the Dutch sector. It so happened that at that particular time three rigs were moved over to Holland from the British sector of the North Sea as part of the normal programme which oil companies undertake. There was nothing politically significant in it. However, Mrs. Margaret Thatcher said at that time that it was quite impossible for us ever to meet the target of 3,500 million cubic feet a day of gas that was laid down in the 1967 White Paper.
I think that, if he ever has the time to do so, the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona, would find it instructive to look back at those debates and to be a little more cautious about the allegations which he makes of political interference having an effect on exploration and development

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programmes. But if what he says is true, then I personally welcome it. If there were a slow-down in the rate of activity in the North Sea and, indeed, in the other parts of our Continental Shelf which are very seldom mentioned in these discussions, it would tend to spin out the period during which these natural assets would be exploited. Then we should not get the situation mentioned by Professor Odell who said that he did not care what happened in the 21st century to our descendants. That is the opposite view to the one which I take, because I think that these resources are so precious to the country—as, indeed, are the resources of coal—that we should consider very carefully over a much longer period than the next five or ten years or, indeed, the next generation, how best they can be exploited. In another context the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, said at the Bucharest Conference on Population Matters that it is not enough to consider merely the problems of the next generation. That is equally true in respect of energy and the conservation of energy as it is in respect of population. Of course, the two are connected, in the sense that the more people you have, the more energy they will use. The noble Lord, Lord Strathcona—
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. I have listened to this debate and I am wondering whether the noble Lord is going to say something about a source of energy over which we have control, whatever the moguls of the oil companies may do, namely, coal. I am wondering whether we are to go along with investment in coal, together with our mining engineers and others. I do not agree that this House has insufficient knowledge to talk in a common-sense way about developments in the mining industry over which we do have control.
Lord AVEBURY: My Lords, I had noticed that the noble Lord had criticised the speeches which had been made so far as containing inadequate reference to the problems of the coal industry. I took it that this was because we had already reached all-Party agreement that the programme as set out following the discussions between the National Coal Board and the National Union of Mineworkers
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was considered to be realistic and sensible. It is not that your Lordships under-estimate in any way the importance of the contribution which coal can make to the solution of the problems which we are discussing, but simply that it is one aspect of it where there is no need for argument across the Floor of the House. I hope I am right on that point.
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: My Lords, I hope so, too.
Lord AVEBURY: My Lords, we fully support the NCB and the NUM in the efforts which they are now making to increase production at least to the level of 120 million tons a year. We hope to get back to the targets which were mentioned only a few years ago of 150 million tons, since that would enable us to reduce the import of oil, pending the attainment of self-sufficiency from our North Sea supplies.
Lord DAVIES of LEEK: I thank the noble Lord. I am sorry that I interrupted him.
Lord AVEBURY: Not at all. The noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, said that over half the energy we produce is wasted. That is what I meant when I said that he displayed— and I am sorry that I have to harp on this—an ignorance of the laws of thermodynamics. In any heat engine, the efficiency is proportional to the difference between the temperature of the source of the heat and the sink of the heat. You take in heat at one temperature and reject it at a lower temperature, and this determines the thermodynamic efficiency of the heat engine, whether it be an internal combustion engine, or a turbine in a power station, or any other device of that kind. When he says that the Electricity Boards produce energy at only 30 per cent. efficiency, that is perfectly true, in the sense that the calorific value of the electricity produced is only one-third of the calorific value of the primary fuel input. Unfortunately, however, there is an upper limit beyond which thermodynamic efficiencies can be increased only at the expense of great increases in the capital cost. If the noble Lord wished the CEGB to increase their thermodynamic efficiencies to 40 per cent., it would be quite possible for them to do so by the expenditure of vast

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amounts of additional capital; but we are also concerned not only with the efficiency with which the Central Electricity Generating Board and the Scottish Boards utilise the primary fuels but with the efficiency with which they use the capital which is provided for them by the Treasury.
The noble Lord also mentioned that diesel engines are considerably more efficient than petrol engines for road transport. That is perfectly true. I have often wondered why, in view of the increase in the cost of petroleum fuels, there is not more scope for manufacturers to produce a diesel engined private motor car. British Leyland did produce a diesel engined motor car, but for export only, and it might be worth considering whether they could not be asked by the Department of Energy, or perhaps by Professor Hawthorne's Committee, whether they have any plans for pro-ducing a diesel engined vehicle for the domestic market. I think it is a 1·8 litre engine, so it is within the size bracket of a large family saloon car, and it might have very considerable sales if they were to put it on the market in Britain instead of just in the overseas markets.
There are four short points which I should like to make as a contribution to this debate on conservation rather than to go over much of the old ground. I want to enunciate four propositions which I should like to put to your Lordships. The first is that any policy for the conservation of energy must also include measures for the conservation of materials, since materials are a form of packaged energy. Secondly, in the short term there are only two ways of reducing energy consumption: they are legislation and the price mechanism. Thirdly, with the application of "state of the art" technologies, there are substantial savings which are achievable in the medium term, by which I mean in five to ten years' time. Fourthly, energy research and development in this country is not sufficiently weighted towards the potential saving of energy and renewable sources of energy.
May I take the first point? From the consumer's point of view the most obvious waste of materials is in the use of unnecessary packaging, the cost of which
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is, of course, added to the cost of the final product that he buys. But waste also occurs on a very large scale because of the insufficient attention which is paid to the material cost of products at the design stage. That results from the previous era which we have enjoyed of low material costs. Even now we find that the emphasis is always on the labour costs of manufacturing and its implications for the competitiveness of British goods, and not on the material side of the equation. However, I believe that, just as we have this Advisory Committee on Energy Conservation under Professor Sir William Hawthorne, there should be a similar body to give the Government advice on materials utilisation and conservation. There is a wealth of expertise which might be available to the Government if they decided to set up a body of that kind. I should be grateful if the noble Lord who is to reply will give me at least some pre-liminary indication of his reaction to that proposal.
On the second point, I believe that the scope for legislation is not large. I agree here with the noble Lord, Lord Balogh, that when critics of the Government's policy have been challenged there have been very few constructive suggestions that they have been able to make. Personally, I think the 50 mph speed limit on roads should have been made universal, and should have applied just as much to the dual carriageways and motorways as to the minor roads, although I realise that such a policy would not be at all popular, and there might be problems of enforcement. Similarly, I think that office temperatures could have been restricted to 18 degrees Centigrade instead of 20 degrees Centigrade, with benefit to the health of the occupants. This would provide a healthier working environment for these people, as well as saving energy.
In passing, I must say to the noble Lord, Lord Balogh, that I do not find even now that Government offices observe the upper limits which, in my opinion, are inadequate. Several times I have been in Departments where temperatures have been higher than 20 degrees. Great consternation has arisen when I pointed this out; people have rushed around in circles trying to get the temperatures reduced, and have apologised, saying, "Unfortunately, the engineers are not very good at

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controlling the temperature. We cannot understand how this has occurred." I think the noble Lord might make a spot check on a number of Departments in Central London to see whether the Government's own policy is being properly observed. I am sure that it is in the Department of Energy ; the noble Lord will have seen to that.
Lord DAV1ES of LEEK: My Lords, perhaps they are all suffering from hypothermia.
Lord AVEBURY: My Lords, I am sure that is not the case so far as the noble Lord, Lord Balogh, is concerned. He is not old enough to suffer from a disease which primarily affects old people. I believe the noble Lord, Lord Balogh, mentioned en passant that restrictions should be imposed on the use of private motorcars by commuters to London. This is a policy which is rapidly gaining public acceptance, perhaps also in other major cities as well. I put forward a very controversial proposal as entirely my own view—someone in the Electricity Council said that even Beria had not suggested this—as I believe the use of electric fires for unrestricted space heating should be stopped. It is a wasteful use of electricity. It is far better from the consumer's point of view, too, that that heating should be provided by gas, coal or oil rather than by electricity.
Finally on Government measures, I think thermal insulation of buildings of all kinds could be encouraged if the owners of those buildings were provided with loans at reasonable rates of interest. This is a proposal which I have mentioned before. In the case of owner-occupiers, loans might be channelled through the building societies, the money being pro-vided by the Government at the ordinary rates of interest which are applicable to house loans, to encourage the proper insulation of existing dwellings as well as the adoption of the higher standards laid down by the Government on new dwellings. These are of minor effectiveness compared with the price mechanism, as I think was agreed by the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, and the noble Lord, Lord Balogh.
My Lords, the proposals I have mentioned so far are for the most part. limi-
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tations on the freedom of the consumer to spend money as he chooses, and for that reason we accept them with some reluctance, if we accept them at all. But the use of the price mechanism, on the other hand, is a restoration of the freedoms which have been denied to public enterprises by successive Governments. Conservative and Labour, for many years past, with extremely damaging effects on the pattern of consumption and on the morale of the persons working in those industries.One has only to ask members of the Boards of the Electricity Council or the Gas Corporation to discover that what I say is true ; that the continual making-up of the deficits of those organisations by subventions from the Treasury—that is to say, from your pocket and mine, because we are all tax-payers—is not good for the healthy morale of people working in these industries. It is sensible that the Government have belatedly decided that we should have a realistic pricing policy.
But what, in fact, do we mean by a realistic pricing policy? Is it adequately defined? As I understand it, the targets for 1975–76 which have been given to these industries are set at either 2 per cent. on turnover or 10 per cent. on net assets. But, at the same time, they are supposed to strike a balance between the restoration of profitability and the imposition of hardship on the consumer. This qualification makes the phrase "realistic price" fairly meaningless, since there will always be enormous political pressures against any price increase, as the noble Lord, Lord Balogh, recognised in his rueful reference to the case of the night storage heaters. But to the extent that prices arc increased, one would expect to see reductions in demand. It is a source of wonder to me that so little work has been done by the economists on elasticity of demand for primary fuel. The only paper I have been able to find in the Library is one by two economists in the Electricity Council, of which I may say the Electricity Council library itself was not aware. Apart from that, the literature on elasticity of demand is extremely sparse. All I can say is that if one looks at the figures—
Lord BALOGH: My Lords, will the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, allow me to say that any calculation on the elasticity

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of demand would be absolutely useless at the present moment. I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, will agree. A completely different situation has arisen. We have never had such a sudden rise in price, and therefore the reaction to such an extreme rise in price will be very different from the sort of fluctuations which we used to have. That is what I would submit to the noble Lord.
Lord AVEBURY: My Lords, I think that is a fair point. The Electricity Council economists who wrote the paper to which I was referring made specific reference to the fact that they did their work before the five-fold increase in oil costs, but they said that the methodology which they applied in the paper would still meet the altered situation. I am not enough of an expert to be able to judge whether that is so, but I do think that the Department of Energy, in its approach to realistic prices, should begin to make a more thorough estimate of what effect this is likely to have on demand. Looking at the figures for 1974—
Lord ROBBINS: My Lords, would the noble Lord allow me to make one observation on his point about elasticity of demand? I must say that I agree 100 per cent. with the noble Lord, Lord Balogh, here. We are now concerned with what in technical terms is called arc elasticity. The earlier investiga-tions were concerned with point elasticity.
Lord AVEBURY: My Lords, I am certainly not going to dispute that with the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, who is absolutely correct in the terms he uses. But looking at the matter as a layman, all I am saying is that in this altered situation it would be valuable, from the points of view of the Government and the energy industries themselves, to know what will be the effect of the approach to the realistic prices, if they mean 2 per cent. on turnover or 10 per cent. on net assets.
My Lords, I was about to say that if one looks at the figures for 1974, the Department's Energy Trends, which I find a useful document, indicated that in the first eleven months of the year, total energy consumption was down 5 per cent. on the corresponding period of 1973,
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while for electricity in particular the reduction was 4·1 per cent. That indicates that the price increases that have taken place already, which were referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Balogh, combined with the effect of a reduction in gross domestic product, have had some considerable effect already. When we look at the White Paper on Public Expenditure to 1978–79, Cmnd. 5879, over the five-year period 1974–75 to 1979–80, electricity consumption is forecast to grow by 30·4 per cent. and simultaneous maximum demand by 25·4 per cent. The noble Lord may care to make a note of those figures. Over the five years 1968–69 to 1973–74—that is to say, before the oil crisis—simultaneous maximum demand grew by only 19·7 per cent. on the CEGB system alone. Unfortunately, these figures are not directly comparable, because the previous ones I gave were for the whole of the United Kingdom. Over the five-year period 1967 to 1972, again when there could have been no effect from the increase in oil prices, the supply of electricity to consumers rose by 27·7 per cent.
This is the mystery to me. Why is it that over the five-year period before the oil crisis both consumption and simultaneous maximum demand were increasing at a faster rate than is assumed in the public expenditure White Paper for the next five years, during which we are going to approach realistic prices? It does not make sense, except that, as one economist whom I consulted about this said, once you start with the 3 per cent. growth rate postulated in the public expenditure White Paper—which, in itself, is a triumph of hope over experience—you then come up with ridiculous figures for electricity consumption and presumably for the other energy industries.
This is extremely dangerous, because it could be a repetition of what happenes in 1964 when the noble Lord, Lord George-Brown, produced his National Plan showing a 4 per cent. growth rate, and the public sector was obliged to formulate its own capital spending plans on the basis of accepting that fundamental postulate. As a result, the capital expenditure which was incurred by the electricity supply industry, for example, was much greater than would have been necessary to meet the demand that materialised. The effect was cancelled out

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by lateness in the delivery of plant, late-ness by the contractors on the sites, so that in the end one had about the 20 per cent. margin of capacity over demand that was required. But it could have been very serious, and it could be now if we are better at maintaining time-scales in the building of power stations. At the end of the five years, if we have succeeded in meeting this estimated growth in terms of capacity of electricity production, then we will have an enormous spare margin of capacity over demand.
I would question whether we really need to keep this figure of 20 per cent. that I have mentioned. In the old days it used to be 17 per cent., and then it was agreed by the Government with the electricity supply boards that this was really inadequate to meet the once-in-a-century peak demand and we should make it up to 20 per cent. I do not believe we can afford to do that any more. If we arc seriously concerned about containing public expenditure, here is a sector in which many millions of pounds can be knocked off, if we are willing to accept a lower margin of safety with the possible risk that once in a century some user of electricity has to accept a lower voltage or even be disconnected.
My Lords, I think I have exhausted my time, and I will not go on to discuss the third and fourth points which I outlined at the beginning of my speech. I will say simply that at some point in the future we have to aim at a steady state economy, and this implies steady state usage of primary fuels. It is no good assuming that once this immediate crisis is over, once we have tightened our belts for the next five or ten years, we can start again on the sort of growth rates that we experienced in the 1950s and 1960s. The attitude of some people in discussing growth, and in discussing growth of energy in particular, is rather like that of St. Augustine when he said:
"Da mihi castitatem et contincntiam sed noli modo ",
that is,
"Give me chastity and continence but not yet".
Let us at some point in the future arrive at a situation where we are using a constant amount of energy in a steady state economy, but for the time being let us provide for continuous increases in the
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amount of coal, electricity, gas and nuclear energy that we use. We live in a finite planet, and that is impossible. If we are thinking about conservation, the sooner the Government begin to think in terms of the maximum sustainable amount of energy which this country and the world can consume, the sooner we shall reach satisfactory solutions.
4.35 p.m.
Lord HINTON of BANKSIDE: My Lords, I find myself unable entirely to agree with the point the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, made at the beginning of his speech, when he seemed to suggest that this was not a suitable subject for debate in your Lordships' House. It seems to me that the availability of energy is fundamental to our wellbeing, that the drain on the balance of payments at the present time is extremely serious, and that these arc matters which well merit discussion. I myself am extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, for having introduced this debate. There were one or two minor points on which I found myself in disagreement with him, but those were mainly points in connection with thermodynamics, on which the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has already given him an admirably concise lecture which I do not need to follow up. The pressing problem of energy supply does not arise from absolute shortages of energy ; it is a question of difficulty in paying prices which have risen too steeply. The difficulty is essentially an economic one, and there are other noble Lords in this House who are better able to discuss the economic difficulties than I am.
What I should like to ask your Lord-ships to do is to throw your minds forward beyond the present period of temporary difficulty to a period of real difficulty, which I think we may reasonably expect to run into towards the end of this century and at the beginning of the next century. May I, first of all, assure your Lordships that I am not one of those prophets of doom. I have no respect for those prophets of doom who forecast that usage of exhaustible resources will go on increasing at a constant exponential rate up to the point of exhaustion. That is not what happens. The consumption of exhaustible resources normally rises quite gradually when their usefulness is first realised, and then, as

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they become more popular, the rate of increase of usage rises more steeply until a point is reached where demand starts to outstrip supply. Then the rate of increase of use falls off until it passes over a peak, after which it starts to fall slowly ; it then falls much more rapidly and ultimately continues at a very slow rate of decrease until absolute exhaustion takes place at some date in the fairly far distant future.
But the important point to remember, I suggest, is that the date of exhaustion is of comparatively little importance. The date which is of real importance is the one at which the curve passes over its peak, because it is at that point that supply ceases to rise in such a way as to meet the demands of increasing populations who have become accustomed to improved standards of living. If one needs to underline the fact that this is very much the case, I think one can look back to the period of the Middle East War in 1973–74 and remember how much alarm was caused by a shortfall in supplies of energy. It was not an exhaustion of energy supplies, but merely a comparatively small and brief shortfall in supply as compared with the rate of demand.
It is extremely difficult to obtain reliable figures on energy reserves. Indeed, this is one of the points that I hope to make in this debate. In what I am saying today, I am relying mainly on Dr. King Hubbert's figures and on the figures which were published in the World Energy Conference Review of Energy Resources at the end of 1974. I do not want to weary your Lordships with a lot of statistics, but I am bound to quote some figures. At present, about 60 per cent. of the world's production of primary energy for industrial purposes is in the form of petroleum and natural gas. Petroleum is the most flexible of all the fuels that we use, and it is the primary energy source on which we are most dependent. According to Dr. King Hub-bert's figures, world supplies of petroleum will pass their peak round about the year 2000, and some British experts forecast that the peak will be passed at an even earlier date than that.
We, in Britain, are constantly being offered comfort in the shape of North Sea oil supplies, but the figures given in the World Energy Conference Review show
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that if our North Sea oil resources, as at present known, are used to meet all our energy requirements at the present level of consumption, they will last little more than 30 years, which means that they will pass over the peak sometime in the 1990s. I know very well, and it has already been mentioned in the debate, that there are analysts who claim that those figures are unduly pessimistic. Those arguments are, in the main, based on the historical fact that in the past when oil-fields have been discovered the amount of oil recovered from them has far exceeded the initial estimates of their capacity.
But I am extremely doubtful whether those historical arguments ought to be used, because the technology of geo-physical exploration has been so much improved over the last ten years. If one wants proof of that, I suggest one should remember that the American Navy was doing exploration work on the Alaskan North slope for 20 years and then gave it up, and it was only when British Petroleum went in with very much improved methods, very much more sophisticated methods of analysis, that the Prudhoe Bay reserves were discovered. So I suggest that we ought not to rely on forecasts which are revised on the basis of historical experience.
I believe that it would be folly to accept the conveniently optimistic view and to disregard the forecasts of the geologists and geophysicists. I suggest that until there is absolute proof that the geo-physicists are wrong, the wise thing to do is to assume that unless present trends of consumption are changed world sup-plies of petroleum will start to fall by the end of this century. The petroleum which is then available on the world market will, I think, go to those countries who are best able to pay for it. The picture for natural gas is not very dissimilar from the picture for petroleum.
For coal, both globally and within Britain, the future is considerably brighter. Dr. King Hubbert's figures fore-cast that the peak of the supply of coal should not be passed until well after the year 2100, but he gives warning that if coal is used as a primary fuel—as may well happen, because as we run out of petroleum fuels processes will be developed for converting coal into liquid fuel substitutes—the reserves will be

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exhausted at a considerably earlier date. Even so, when looking at King Hubbert's figures one should remember that nearly 50 per cent. of the coal reserves of the world lie in the Soviet bloc, and that 50 per cent. of the remainder are on the North American continent. Only 5 per cent. of those reserves are in Europe.
It is interesting, puzzling and thought-provoking to look at the figures given for coal reserves in the United Kingdom. According to the World Energy Conference Survey on Resources, our total reserves of coal are about 99,000 million tons. At our present rale of consumption that would meet our requirements for about 600 years, and that is the figure which is usually given to a believing public. But the figure of 99,000 million tons includes all of our coal reserves, and the figure given in the World Energy Conference Survey for the reserves of coal that are recoverable within the economic and technical limits which exist in 1974 is only about 3,900 million tons, which is a very different figure from 99,000 million tons. The lower figure means that unless it is found possible to work some deposits which have in the past been uneconomic, or to use methods of recovery of coal from underground which have as yet to be developed, we should pass the peak of supply of British coal comparatively early in the next century.
We have, of course, been told that our salvation lies in nuclear power. Before going on to nuclear power, I should like as quickly as possible to mention the renewable resources as distinct from the finite resources of energy in the world. Globally, there are very large resources of hydro-power, but they lie in parts of the world which are remote from the United Kingdom. It will be of little direct help to us to know that there is plenty of hydro-power in Brazil and Central Africa and the more remote parts of Canada. We have only a negligible quantity available here.
In some parts of the world solar power is already being used for domestic and commercial purposes. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Balogh, has already said, I do not think that it is likely to be extensively used even for those limited purposes in this country. Its use to supply large blocks of industrial power
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is really no more than a sparkle in the eye of the scientist at the present moment. Wind power can supply limited quantities of energy in limited parts of the world. In the same way geothermal power can, and is, already supplying power to those regions which are fortunate enough to have wet rock at depth, but whether it will be useful in areas like the United Kingdom where we have dry rock, is I think, doubtful. Tidal power globally can do little. The number of locations where it can be developed are comparatively small. As has already been mentioned this afternoon, there is a prospect of one scheme in the Severn Estuary in this country which has been under examination off and on for the last 40 years and which is now being examined again. But let us remember that even though it may be found to be viable it could, at the most optimistic estimate, supply only 5 per cent. of the electrical power that we need ; that is to say, about 2 per cent. of our total energy requirements. As for wave power, this at the moment is little more than a dream. So for use in this country I feel bound to say that the renewable sources of energy can contribute very little to help us.
For the last 20 years we have been told that nuclear power will provide the answer to all our energy problems. But if the world is to run into shortages of fossil fuels by the end of this century, world progress in the development of nuclear technology has to be much faster than in the last 19 years since Calder Hall was commissioned. In the paper which he wrote for the Royal Society, Dr. Bowie, of the Institute of Geological Sciences, forecast that uranium prices would rise steeply. Indeed, they have already risen far more steeply than his forecast. He forecast also that, unless energetic action was taken to discover new uranium reserves, there would be a uranium famine early in the next century. The discovery of new uranium reserves will be extremely difficult and costly, because already most of those surface reserves which are fairly easily discovered by aerial survey have been located and are counted in the reserves on which he has reckoned. There is a real possibility of a shortage of uranium early in the next century if we continue only to build the thermal reactors which are being built all over the world.

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Those thermal reactors burn less than 1 per cent. (in fact, between 0·5 and 0·8 per cent.) of the uranium which is fed into them. Unless fast reactors can be brought into use and incorporated into our energy planning in sufficient numbers we will be in a real difficulty, because the date when we can count on fusion power is, I believe, unforeseeable. But much more than the fast reactor alone is needed if we are to solve our energy problems. The fast reactor can do no more than supply electricity, and electricity in itself is not a universally applicable source of energy. For instance, one cannot propel an aeroplane with it. To meet the energy shortage, which I think we should be foreseeing towards the end of this century and in the early years of the next century, research and development are needed over a frighteningly large area. In relation to the amount of work which has to be done the time which is available for that work is, to my mind, all too short.
The figures suggest that the shortage of some esssential energy sources will start to develop as soon as 1995 or 2000 A.D. That is only 20 or 25 years from now, and in terms of the volume of the development work which has to be done it gives us far too little time. If we look backwards in order to put that time into perspective, let us remember that those dates are no further ahead of us than the Queen's Coronation is behind us, and that occasion seems, at any rate to me, to have taken place very recently; or, in more technical terms, let us remember that those dates are no further into the future than the date when work on building the world's first industrial power station at Calder Hall was started in 1953. Sadly, nuclear power has made little progress in reliability since then. The year 1995 is not so far away as the date when work on the fast reactor was started in 1950, and that fast reactor is still only at the prototype stage.
I do not want to be thought of as a prophet of doom, but I think we should realise the problems which lie ahead of us. I have tried to make a sober forecast of the difficulties that we may have to face. I have done this on the basis of the figures which I think to be most reliable. If those figures are proved to be wrong, I must confess that I shall not feel immediately inclined to apologise to
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your Lordships' House. I shall say, rather, that I have made the first point which I wish to make ; that is, that on this subject, which is absolutely fundamental to the wellbeing of this country, we have no set of figures which is universally and unquestionably accepted as a basis of policy formation. I understand that the World Energy Conference is trying to set up a study group, composed of representatives from Governments and from inter-Governmental organisations, to prepare better estimates. The task which faces them is immense and it involves inter-disciplinary research by geologists, geophysicists, scientists, engineers and by other people of every kind. I hope that Her Majesty's Government will be able to give help and support to that study.
It must be about two years since we debated in this House a Motion tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Tanlaw, in which he proposed setting up an Energy Commission. I did not support his proposal at that time. I suggested that because internal and external political considerations were so closely inter-meshed with the technical problems, it would be better instead to set up a strong inter-disciplinary team within the Department of Energy. So far as I know, little or nothing has been done to follow either of those courses, and if it were felt today that the quickest result could be achieved by setting up an Energy Commission, I should be in favour of that course.
I support the proposals which have been made by the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal. I support them not merely because I hope they will do something to solve our present economic problems, but also because they give us a rather longer time in which to deal with the slightly more distant, and very much more difficult, problems which I believe this country and the whole world will have to face at an inconveniently early date.
5.0 p.m.
Lord NATHAN: My Lords, in following the noble Lord, Lord Hinton of Bankside, who is one of the world experts in the subject on which he was speaking, I think that it is reasonable to give some indication as to one's qualifications, such as they are, to speak in your Lordships' House on this subject at all. I was chairman of a Working Party which produced a report entitled Energy and the

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Environment, which was published in July last year. It was largely in the con-text of the work undertaken by that Working Party that I came to have some small knowledge of the subject being discussed today.
The Working Party reached a main conclusion—that we are not adequately organised to cope with the short-, medium- or long-term problems with which we are confronted, and I was very interested to hear the noble Lord, Lord Hinton, refer to an Energy Commission which was something that we also recommended in the Working Party's report. However, it is not about that that I propose to speak this afternoon. In the short term, there are, no doubt, many steps which can be taken and I do not propose to spend any time on them. I mention in passing that if clothes, particularly for women, were made of rather wanmer material and if diet were more appropriate to our climate, we could in fact save a great deal of fuel.
My Lords, the timescale of which I had thought of speaking is between five and ten years rather than of the immediate future, and I should like to say, as so many others have said, something about the problem as I see it. We have a dual problem: we have the problem that we have enjoyed cheap fuel and we have thus been able to economise on capital expenditure in the use of that fuel. As a result of that we have, for example, petrol and not diesel engines, and thermally inefficient buildings and isolated power stations far from centres of population in many, though of course not all, cases where waste heat cannot be utilised.
I do not want to become involved in something of which I know absolutely nothing—that is, the laws of thermo-dynamics—but I am reliably informed that there is a substantial amount of waste heat created in the generation of electricity. If I may give the figures which have been given to me, they are that approximately 65 per cent. of the heat which is used in a power station is wasted. However, I do not think that the figure is particularly important to what I have to say. Therefore, I believe that to make a real impact on economy in the use of energy, we shall have to incur heavy capital expenditure. I do not
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believe that we can do it, except in the very short term, in any other way.
There have been references to transport. Of course, economies have been made in the use of fuel for transport and no doubt there can be more. However, when one considers that the total amount of energy used in the transport field is about 15 to 17 per cent. of the total energy expended, we must see that we cannot make as great an impact there as we could in other fields, particularly space heating, which uses a vastly greater proportion of our total energy resources.
My Lords, some (but not those who have spoken in your Lordships' House this afternoon) seem to be under the impression that the nuclear alternative is that which will save us in the quite short term. Therefore, I though that I should mention that the nuclear alternative is not available to make any effective impact before 1985. I say this, first, because of the long lead times ; secondly, because of the enormous capital costs; and thirdly, because of the research and industrial back-up facilities required. It was no surprise to me when the Secretary of State for Energy, referring to the EEC Commission documents on energy policy in another place yesterday, confirmed this view.
My Lords, I therefore start with the proposition that we shall have to foresee substantial capital expenditure and this, as it seems to me, should be expended on new buildings, when they are to be built in any event, being far more thermally efficient. When one considers the new office blocks which have been erected—and this is not a question of style—with huge plate-glass windows and often with the need for air-conditioning, their loss of heat and the constant need to keep the temperature up, that must surely be an area in which there should be Government intervention requiring thermal standards, and quite high standards, too. This will cost money, and the buildings will cost more than they would without such a requirement.
My Lords, I should have thought that an extensive system of loans, grants, tax allowances and so on, in order to improve the thermal efficiency of existing buildings would be money well spent. Lastly, I think one of the most important matters requiring urgent consideration

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and, if consideration proves that it is practicable, action, is the building of small power stations within towns and cities. These could be powered by coal, gas or oil, coupled with a system of district heating to utilise a large part of the waste heat which would otherwise be wasted if such power stations were removed from centres of population.
Finally in that connection, consideration of the use of waste heat from existing heavy industry is needed. This is of course at present being dealt with in a scheme which is being developed at Newport in South Wales, which involves district heating—space heating—derived from waste heat produced by the British Steel Corporation's steel works at Llan-wern. This seems to be the way forward. I have every reason to believe that the technology and the manpower for such schemes are available and that we are not looking into the distant future or to the far ranges of technology.
My Lords, when considering capital investment in terms of money, consideration must also be given to the input of energy into the capital project itself. It is necessary to balance the energy input against the energy output or the saving in energy consumption. I believe that some active consideration should be given to the question whether it is practicable and desirable to develop some form of energy accounting in order to arrive at a proper assessment of various types of investment. This is rather different from the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, with regard to an energy audit. What I have in mind is that one should be able to see how much energy has been put into a particular capital project and what the saving or the output of energy may be.
Therefore, my Lords, the conclusions which I reach are that there should be serious study with regard to small, conventionally powered power stations coupled with district heating, a radical approach to new building, capital grants, allowances against tax or some other fiscal assistance in relation to insulation of old buildings, and that we should look into developing some system of energy accounting. These programmes require an extensive research background cover-ing fields far wider than we have discussed this afternoon or I have indicated in these few remarks. For instance, they
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would require study of the impact on local authority housing schemes and the whole area of town and country planning. They would require consideration of the location and extent of industry; they would require consideration of the impact on the environment within and outside centres of population, and they would require consideration of the industrial and financial back-up for these programmes.
Now there is an Advisory Council on Energy Conservation which was established, as it happens, very shortly after the Working Party report to which I referred was published. That Council could no doubt undertake this task ; but if so, it would have to have its terms of reference and its manpower considerably expanded ; or a further body, such as an Energy Commission could be created, of which the existing Council would either form part or with which it would work in the closest association. Without some such centre point of information and organisation, it seems to me that we are going to talk a lot and achieve little.
5.11 p.m.
Lord SELSDON: My Lords, I must confess to feeling something of an interloper in the debate today, for after the very erudite speeches on energy I shall be something of a barb in the tail on the second part of the Motion, which is the protection of the balance of payments. I feel somewhat ashamed that most of the speeches I have made in your Lord-ships' House have been connected with foreign affairs, trade and industry or balance of payments, and much of what I have said I will probably say again. But to noble Lords opposite I will say one thing: on occasions when I have spoken here, many of you have been kind enough to nod your heads in agreement with some of the things which I modestly and moderately say. Today I hope you will do the same thing, for I have reached a stage in my life where my disillusionment with this country continues to grow.
A few months ago, or even six months ago, when I plucked up courage to read previous speeches I had made in your Lordships' House, I urged the need for co-operation and optimism, and I thought, as I preached some form of optimism, there was a chance that I could be right. And when the world was becoming more

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and more pessimistic, I still remained optimistic, and as now for some unde-scribable reason there is the beginning of a feeling of optimism again in England, I find myself utterly pessimistic. The current Administration, which has some excellent people in it, will, I am sure, go down in history for one thing: it will go down as the last Government in the United Kingdom who failed to govern the country properly. During previous Governments, of all Parties, we have criticised the inability of Government to manage economic affairs, the inability of politicians to communicate with industry and commerce and to unite the nation. This Government, in my mind, goes down the same as the last: they have failed to unite the nation. Their policies have failed to be consistent, and we cannot afford at this time to have a Government who change their mind and who have to learn. We need a Government who know.
We are, as I look at it at the moment, at a far more critical point than many of us may believe. The future of our nation depends upon international activity. This we all know and accept. It has been this international activity that has kept us alive for years, but the balance has changed. Once upon a time we were in the dominant position of controlling and running the international activity which benefited us. Now other people are in that position. Atlas has shifted the world on its axis and some of the wealth of Western Europe and the Western World has moved steadily in a South-Easterly direction. We find ourselves, I believe, at a point of crisis, not on economic management of our own affairs, for frankly the operations which we see, like the Government today, are rather like those of an impoverished tailor who has but one bolt of cloth and snips and snips away until there is not enough to make one good suit. I feel my own birthright has been mortgaged. I feel that unless something is done in the foreign affairs field, and soon, we may find ourselves sliding further and further down the slope.
When we look at balance of payments, as we must, we see we have started the disease of trying to separate these. We divide them into smaller and smaller compartments. Once upon a time it was balance of payments; then it became visible and invisible trade, and then it
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became the oil deficit, and it may well become the raw material deficit, the manufactured goods deficit. All of these I shall try not to cover in detail, but to speak about in general. The invisible sector is one I have tried to cover in your Lordships' House before. There is one thing to say about this. Our invisibles are what to some extent are helping to keep us alive, and this is not generally recognised or accepted. I speak not just for the City of London, but for all other sectors. It is disgraceful that we should have such division in the nation that those people who provide services and earn money abroad should be subject to so much criticism. It is also sad that when we rely upon confidence within our own country, we should try to destroy that confidence and play into the hands of our friends on the Continent of Europe and in other major centres of the world. But invisibles are our lifeblood and we will continue, I am sure, to show a surplus. But the potential for extending that surplus with the recycling of petrodollars and all of this is far greater than many of us may believe.
On the oil deficit, there is energy conservation and may be we are fortunate that inflation to some extent may bail us out; and in real terms the price of oil has started to go down and there is a more realistic outlook in the Arab world. But another danger I see is the raw material sector. We rely, as we know, upon the importation of other raw materials besides oil. The last Conservative Administration blamed many of the failures of their economic performance upon the escalation of commodity prices, and now people say that the decline in commodity prices is helping the current Administration. But we should recognise that raw materials are other nations' assets, and we know too that these countries, perhaps emotionally or perhaps wisely may recognise the value of what they hold in their soil, or in their timber forests or in other parts of their countries.
So why cannot we, too, have a fair price for our birthright? Already, as your Lordships will know, discussions are taking place between different nations around the world, and with good reason— and often with fair reasoning. It would be wrong to assume that we may not in due course face a sharp escalation in the price of copper, foodstuffs and other

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imports, and then, no matter what we may do in manufacturing we will slide further and further down the slope. It would be wrong, too, for us to assume with pride that the pound has stayed up solidly and firmly against the dollar because of our balance of payments position, and our export ability, and the policies of this current Government, for technical reasons to do with petrodollars, which we all know have led to some stability in the relationship of the pound against the dollar.
But, my Lords, all these things are little besides what may happen, and before I leave the home front there is one thing I should say. We are in some form of industrial and commercial quicksand and quagmire. The Government have denied industry and commerce the right to manufacture and export. The cash-flow problems which we know exist in industry, and inflation, are such that industry can no longer afford to export. It cannot in many cases afford to keep the stocks abroad, to provide the service abroad or even to provide the sales teams that are so badly needed, because of escalating hotel costs and travel bills. It is no longer a question of British goods being cheap. The price is not material. It is true, perhaps, that we should have even increased our export prices. It is a question of delivery and service, and British companies, for all their quality and ability and reputation, cannot deliver and cannot provide that service, sometimes because they are unwilling or are unable to do so, but more and more often because they cannot afford to do it, and winning export orders abroad becomes no good when we can no longer deliver.
I see gloom on that front without some form of help to industry, and to exporting industries in particular. But when we look at the United Kingdom we will find today—and these are estimates that I think I could justify—that 80 per cent. of all our exports will depend on the activities of maybe as few as 200 companies, and that 50 per cent. of the profit and work and activity of those companies depends directly, or indirectly, upon inter-national activity, and that one-third of the total employment in the United Kingdom depends upon international activity as well.
That leads me to believe that half the efforts of the Government of this nation
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should be upon the domestic front, al-though at least half should be in the international field. I think it is unfair to criticise a Socialist Government just because it is socialist, but in the foreign affairs field it tends to rely too much upon interference and ideology instead of on realism and vision. I do not believe that the current Administration has any definable foreign policy at all. I do not believe they recognise how important it is at this moment that we should cement and build old-established links which we have had, particularly with countries in the Third World, for generations. I think they do not realise the good will that lies latent in these countries towards the British, and they would be well advised to give further attention to these areas.
My Lords, as I mentioned, the shift in the economic wealth of the world can be divided into a number of sectors, and I shall concentrate on only one of these. There is, of course, South-East Asia where the good will towards the British —as noble Lords who have been there on numerous occasions in the past will know—is still there waiting to be encouraged. Our companies are preferred to many of those of other countries; despite delivery, despite quality, they want to do business with the British. But where are the British and where is the Government policy which says, "We wish to be friends with you and to build a trading relationship which will last another hundred years "? There is the Latin American area with the growth of Venezuela. There are not quite the same links there as with South-East Asia, but there are links and a willingness to build a growing relationship, particularly when one looks at the relationships which many of these countries have with the cultures of Western Europe. There was hardly a Brazilian before the recent coup in Portugal who did not stop over in Lisbon on his way to London. There was hardly anyone from Argentina who did not stop in Madrid on his way to London. These people came here full of enthusiasm for the British. There are Mexicans with Scottish names like Fernandez MacGregor who have spent fortunes trying to trace their Scottish history. This is another part of the world on which I will not dwell.

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We then come to Africa—that exciting, dynamic Continent with names which many of us cannot remember; countries who have suddenly discovered their new wealth—former British or French colonies—now looking for independence, looking for friends, looking for technology and know-how to develop the resources they have in terms of raw materials and labour forces. I think not only of Nigeria, but of some of the former French colonies whose names until recently I hardly knew. But I will come back to the immediate area which I have been visiting quite recently.
My own job in the commercial world is mainly with Continental Europe, but as the economic balance shifted South-Easterly I moved with it and I returned from Egypt only last weekend. I will speak of the Arab world and in case there may be any emotional feeling here I am wearing a commercial and industrial hat and not a political one. The advantage that an hereditary Peer may have in your Lordships' House is that he can wear both hats ; he can put his toe into the murky water of international politics and if he cannot see it or does not like the temperature he can withdraw it and go back to the commercial side. This I will do with the Arab world now. In the Arab world, as your Lordships will know, despite the political situation in the Middle East, despite all forms of reaction which there may be against Zionism or Zionist countries, there is a desire and a willingness to do business with British companies. The Arabs are saying, "Where are the British? The Americans are here, the French are here, the Germans are here in force, as are the Italians, but where are the British? "These other countries work closely together, company and Government, politicians and industrialists. The French are pastmasters in utilising their political know-how and ability and links to further their industrial and commercial aims in the Middle East. The British are nowhere to be seen.
It was amazing to me in a Socialist country such as Egypt to have everybody say to me: "We prefer the Conservatives ; we as Socialists have always preferred the Conservatives. We do not like
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your Socialist Government—they are inward-looking and not outward-looking, and they lack vision". They have said to me in Cairo, and other parts of the Arab world: "Come here ; bring your companies. It does not matter that the Americans are here before you ; you can have our export orders, you can do our joint ventures and our projects ; you do not need the money any more, you have the good will, the export markets, the reputation, the people, and you have that ability to use that old proverb that know-how was the magic word for converting common sense into cash. Come out here, we will provide the money for you to set up your business; we will provide the money for you to import your Western products. You help us, for we have no infrastructure in middle management, we lack technology and know-how ". In due course when the political situation is resolved on a step by step basis, as I believe it will be, then all this reaction against Zionism and Zionist companies and others will fade away and die. To me it is but a stone's throw to the opening of the Suez Canal. One move by one side in one direction will undoubtedly mean a move by the other. And when that first move is made, the Middle East will take off in a way that no one would believe, and the British must be there, and the British Government must make things clear.
To me it is sad and showing a remark-able sensitivity on all sides that one kiss by Mr. Wilson could almost throw away generations of relationships. It is odd that such an emotional reaction should take place. It is something that should be recognised and one should try to take industry and commerce out of politics but to link it with politics. I have been to Cairo twice in the last two months. When one looks at a map of the Arab world one sees that, like most maps, it shows part of the Arab world as part of Africa. A European map may show one part or an Asian map another. But if you look with Cairo at the centre you realise the infra-structure that has been built there, the way that the petrodollars are not coming directly back to Western Europe, other than for short-term deposits and the possible acquisition of some of the basic assets of Western Europe, but waiting poised to go into partnership

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with Western companies in developments in the Sudan, Egypt, parts of Africa and the Third World.
It would be wrong for us not to recognise that we have a major asset in our people and in our know-how. It is not something you can measure in true cash terms but in terms of balance of payments it could be substantial. It is also true to say that our relationships with these countries, if developed now, as I believe they should be at a much greater rate, could stand us in good stead when dealing with the problems of raw materials which undoubtedly will come within five years' time. They would need our help and they would request our help if only we would go towards them in a slightly more open way.
I feel that at a time when we depend so much more on international operations and the good will of international people than we did at any time in our history, any reduction in expenditure on foreign affairs or on international defence, trade or other areas, could be disastrous. I should like to see the Government making some gestures and taking some initiative with these countries. The friendship and willingness is there, as many noble Lords who have served in these countries will know. We have a problem that many of the people we have in middle and senior management are too young to have known those countries personally. Take myself, for example. Although I have been to Egypt before, when it was an independent country I was only seventeen years old. Most people who knew Egypt and the Arab world are far older, and yet their resources, know-how and relationships are not being harnessed. There are some major projects in the Arab world which could go to the British ; many are going to the French. There is a political reason for this. As we saw after the meeting in Paris a short while ago between Sadat and Giscard d'Estaing, the awarding of contracts could equally well have gone to the British. The contract for the underground railway in Cairo went to the French, but in a hot country an underground railway with rubber tyres does not make sense.
There are other deals and propositions being brought forward which the Arab world would willingly put towards the British if the British would go towards
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them. The political problems, if the two commercial sides are encouraged, can be resolved. There is no reason to be totally partisan, and some of the embar-goes or boycotts which have developed in the invisible sector at the moment could be overcome. It is but one sector of the world in which something must be done, but if we stand back and look inwards and try to keep snipping away at the cloth which is getting smaller and smaller, borrowing up to the hilt and selling our country to foreigners so that our children have no heritage, I believe that we shall be making a very grave mistake indeed.
5.30 p.m.
Lord ROBBINS: My Lords, I am sure that we must all feel grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal. The debate has produced a most vigorous and competent speech from the noble Lord himself; it has produced an interesting exposition of the attitude of the Government to points which the noble Lord raised and certainly it has produced a most notable survey of the far distant future of our energy supplies from the noble Lord, Lord Hinton of Bankside. The Motion of the noble Lord related both to energy and to the balance of payments. Most of the speeches made this afternoon in this House have related to energy and to energy saving. I should be the last to deny the relevance of these considerations to the balance of payments but, like the last speaker although with a different horizon, I should like to focus my main remarks this afternoon on the balance-of-payments position and to focus those remarks on the very short-term position with which we are con-fronted.
In this connection, two things seem to me to overshadow the whole position of the British economy and the future of agreeable social conditions in this country. First, there is the fact that, at the present time and for some time to come, our standard of life is maintained, or may be maintained, by borrowing at a rate the magnitude of which must be approaching £4,000 million a year—a state of affairs, I think, quite unprecedented in the economic history of this country, save perhaps in wartime. The conversion of equivalents would be a

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difficult matter. The second point which I think deserves to be emphasised, al-though to many noble Lords it will be well known, is the extraordinarily pre-carious nature of the situation.
Far be it from me to suggest that ex-ternal borrowing is always a sign of ill-health. Who will say that the external borrowing of the United States in the 19th century—although it sometimes led to ill-will and breaches of trust—was, in the main, a sign of ill-health in that developing country? But our external borrowing is not of that nature. It is true that we look ahead to the development of certain resources in the North Sea which, if present plans are fulfilled, will be of some assistance to our balance of payments and our energy position ; but a lot of water has to go under the bridge before that state of affairs prevails. In the meantime, there is no doubt at all that we arc in a position of extreme danger.
My Lords, one must try to establish perspective in these matters. Let me therefore begin my observations on this state of affairs by recognising explicitly the external factors which have given rise to this situation. I need not expatiate on the abrupt and the discontinuous misfortune to our balance of payments of the unprecedented rise in the price of oil. One should recognise, too, that in the last few years there have been other adverse influences affecting the terms of trade: the breakdown of food supplies at one time in Russia ; the rise in price of food, and so on. All this is well known and I say it only in order to make it quite clear that what I shall say does not underestimate the degree to which we can, if we like, call ourselves unfortunate.
However. I have two points to make even on that matter. The first point is that there are other countries besides the United Kingdom whose terms of trade have been affected by the rise in the prices of oil and other commodities ; and it must be recognised that with a few exceptions in the industrialised countries—I leave the underdeveloped world out of account— the position is not as bad as it is in this country. Germany, for instance—which depends to a very large extent for its energy supplies on imports of oil—is still in the position of having a very favourable balance of payments. One even
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hears talk in expert circles of the possibility of an upgrading of the rate of the Mark in order to escape the effects of a surplus which is still running. Even in the case of Japan, exceptionally vulnerable as regards the price of oil, progress has been made which certainly surpasses any progress which is immediately observable in our own country.
The second point is rather less down to earth and some may think, at the beginning, that it is somewhat abstract; but I think it deserves to be said. If inside any country or any community the price of one domestically-produced commodity goes up, or the price of a group of domestically-produced commodities goes up, then, unless at the same time there is a perverse creation of money, there is for the citizens of the country concerned less to spend on other things. These homely generalisations apply not only to trade within countries but to trade between countries. If the terms of trade become adverse, then, unless there are financial offsets of one kind or another, there is less to spend for domestically produced products and consequently a release of resources to push exports. This takes place either by a slowing down of the rate of increase of domestic expenditure, or it may take place, of course, by reason of an adjustment or, if you like, a fall in the rate of sterling exchange.
I am certain, my Lords, that the prices of certain goods have gone up. It does not seem as if we have very much less to spend in the aggregate, and our rate of exchange has certainly dropped over the last few years, but our position is still worse than the position of any important Western Power, except perhaps Italy. The fact is—and here I am not making a point which is favourable to either Party in your Lordships' house or in the coun-try—that the adverse movement of the terms of trade, taking all in all, has been aggravated for us by a rate of inflation greater than the rate elsewhere, and that still goes on. Only yesterday in the newspapers we read an announcement by an important international financial body to the effect that, in their terms of reference, their rate of inflation was greater than anywhere else. Of course there has been inflation elsewhere ; there is inflation in the world as a whole in greater or lesser degree, and the extent to which there has been inflation elsewhere, given

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our inflation, has meant that our position as regards imports and exports has probably been easier than it would have been if we had been inflating alone. But the fact still remains that our position is worse than the position of others.
To sum up this part of my observation, it is not true and I do not contend that all our troubles are due to internal policies ; but I certainly contend that our troubles have been made very much more difficult by policies which were pursued during the period of the last Government and which continue to the present day. Think of the difference that would exist if our inflation had been running only at the rate of inflation of the West German Republic, for instance.
My Lords, how do we get out of this position? I do not wish to add to the learned and well-informed remarks made from different parts of the House about possible ways of economising on energy. I am sure that some of the suggestions which have been made are important and I am equally sure that Her Majesty's Government are pursuing with some activity policies tending in that direction. I should like to mention a fact to which my attention was drawn recently by an extremely powerful article by the noble Lord, Lord Kahn—who I notice is not here today—in a brochure published by the Institute of Economic Affairs. In the article he emphasised the extent to which—I think he had in mind possibly some of the facts to which our attention has been drawn by the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon—our efforts to push exports in the countries enriched by the price of oil have fallen behind the efforts which have been made, for instance, by Germany or Japan. Lord Kahn's article is well worth reading in that respect.
The only other observation I have to make about oil relates to international action. My view has always been that, in the absence of an international " Sherman Act "—it is really crying for the moon to expect such an Act to come into operation in the lifetime of any of us, even the youngest here, although we all discussed this in the last days of the War when we were considering recon-struction—if we have a producers' cartel why should we not have a consumers' cartel. Surely the producers have it all their own way if they can bargain
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separately with each of the parties concerned. I say nothing in disparagement of the members of OPEC. They are looking after their business according to their lights, but I wonder whether, to some extent, we have not been over-inhibited in international action designed to get better bargains than we are at pre-sent getting.
Lord JACQUES: Would not the noble Lord agree that even if we had a consumers' cartel the power would lie with the producer? The consumer needs the oil, but the producer does not need to sell it.
Lord ROBBINS: I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, that we are in a sticky business. All I say is that there is some need for concerted action in these matters. I think the noble Lord will agree with me. That view has been shared by people who know more than I do about this matter. Walter Levy, the greatest authority in the world has been pushing that view very energetically for some time. But when all has been done in this direction, my Lords, the fact remains that somehow or other there has to be a curtailment of our internal standard of life pro tem.
It is very difficult to get a perspective in these matters. When words of this kind are uttered, they conjure up at once visions of judgment, visions of a state of affairs in which the standard of living of people in this country would be reduced by half. Although this is one of the most difficult matters in the world to calculate—and certainly one of the matters on which I would disbelieve any exact figure—if one reflects that since the late 'sixties there have been increases (not as good as elsewhere, but increases) in productivity per head, I should guess that, if by some stroke of the wand curtailment of our standards were to go back that short time, a good deal of the external difficulty would disappear, but not all. That is simple enough to say, but the question is, what is happening in the real world? Some people attach importance to the promise of reflation by the President of the United States. I believe the Chancellor of the Exchequer goes round the world urging his col-leagues—the opposite numbers in the Ministries of Finance—to reflate, which would certainly help with some of his

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problems. Our exports would be stimulated and our imports would be more extensive. Certainly reflation elsewhere, whatever its effect on the rest of the world, would help us. But we cannot count on that; and some moderation, some exercise of self-restraint in this country, is necessary if we are to escape these almost intolerable dangers.
We talk a good deal about observance of the guidelines. I have never been able to understand in detail what they are, but I understand that, broadly speaking, the guidelines are supposed to involve increases of salaries and wages which maintain the constant for the time being, marking time as regards the standard of life. I must say that for the time being, given the change in terms of trade, it does not seem to me to be enough. I am bound to say that I feel that some contraction is necessary—and all I have said is on the assumption that the guide-lines are being kept; but it is notorious that they are not being kept. I myself, in another capacity, have seen demands for increases in present rates ranging from 40 per cent. to 60 per cent. One has only to open one's newspaper in the morning to see other demands which go far beyond any conceivable guidelines hitherto enunciated.
My Lords, why is this so? On the whole, if one takes a broad perspective of our economic history, one finds that the results of collective bargaining have not been all that bad. Moderation has been exercised on one side or another— though of course there have been deplorable exceptions. He would be falsifying history who said that in days gone by responsible leaders of the trade union movement were making demands of this order of magnitude. Of course, to some extent it is a case of the chicken and the egg: there is inflation and, ipso facto, there is a pretext for demands which are higher than they would have been had there not been inflation. It may be—I have heard it said by noble Lords—that there is a certain amount of pure " destructionism " in some of the demands that have been made. I do not know about that, but what I firmly believe, and what I do not think is widely recognised even among well-informed people, is that there is a limitation of the real resources which exist to finance demands of the
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order of magnitude which we read about almost every day of the week.
I have just been reading an extra-ordinarily interesting tract, published by a body I have never heard of before but one which is obviously a body of good-will, called Working Together. Then there is a pamphlet written by a very well-known person indeed, the famous Professor Phelps Brown, who was recently President of the Royal Economic Society —a person whose integrity and technical ability would surely be recognised by knowledgeable people on all sides of the House. The pamphlet is entitled: Where do Rises in Pay Come From? To illustrate his argument—it is an elaborate one and I shall not attempt to reproduce it here—he takes an extreme case. He suggests something which would clearly be impracticable, if not impossible, and which would be rejected by all responsible people: that there should be a confiscation of all incomes over £3,000 a year. That would cause no little disquietude in the other place! That is the Professor's hypothesis, and he then takes incontestable statistics and makes adjustments for taxation—because of course adjustments in taxation would be essential with an operation of that sort, as I am sure the noble Lord will agree. What is the net result? Even I, who am a little sceptical about the existence of the widows' cruse, was taken aback by Professor Phelps Brown's conclusion. He finds that there would be available in real terms an increase of 5 per cent. for all the people who are earning below £3,000 a year. Therefore any demand which exceeds that amount is a demand which can only be met, nominally, by inflation ; and I do not believe that that fact is at all commonly recognised. There is no widow's cruse, my Lords, which would help us out of the present position.
At the present time, the one thing which stands between us and a siege economy, with food rationing and the rationing of imported raw materials, together with the collapse of the pound, is the willingness of foreigners to lend us money and, if I may be permitted to say so in your Lordships' House, the great skill and dedication of the leaders of our financial institutions who are concerned with foreign borrowing, especially the Governor and staff of the Bank of

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England. Only the willingness of foreigners to lend and the trust engendered by the people I have referred to stand between us and a catastrophe of a kind which has never so far been seen in this country. And how precarious it all is! One seriously adverse industrial dispute on a large scale, a few more collapses of important businesses, a series of very bad trade figures, and there is a 50 per cent. chance that the position would become out of hand. And it would not be the doing of an obscure group of speculative " Gnomes of Zurich" and hypothetically evil groups of that sort: it would be the result of the sober advice of financial advisers in all countries other than this all over the world.
May I conclude by saying that, in my judgment, never since the shadow of Hitler was lengthening over this country has there been such a gap between what Keynes used to call "outside opinion" and " inside opinion" in this country. "Inside opinion" knows the dangers I have been talking about, but how many "outsiders" do? Go into Victoria Street and observe the deportment and demeanour of the people hurrying to and fro on their daily rounds ; go into the centres of retail trade, which are not doing badly at the moment; make a sample survey anywhere you like, at any rate in the South-East of England, and you will find that people have become anaesthetised to the cry of " Crisis!" So far as they are concerned, things are pretty normal though the headlines in the paper are perhaps a little more disquieting than usual, " but after all we all know what the papers are."
Lord BOOTHBY: My Lords, I hesitate to interrupt and hesitate still more to contradict the noble Lord, but I find moving around in the places he has just mentioned that everybody looks intensely gloomy, and that applies to the country as a whole—outside and inside.
Lord ROBBINS: My Lords, I would always hesitate to disagree with the noble Lord who has so many contacts and so much experience. I should be extremely glad if what he said were true. But I myself, when I move about, which I sometimes do, gain the contrary impression. I am reminded of the lines of
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Thomas Gray, Ode on a Distant Prospect of Eton College:
" Alas, regardless of their doom,
The little victims play!
No sense have they of ills to come,
Nor care beyond today."
My Lords, the thing that this country needs most is candour and truth, and those of us on the Cross-Benches look to the fine characters on both sides of the House to act in that spirit.
6.1 p.m.
Lord MONSON: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, and most noble Lords who have followed him have dealt most thoroughly with the broad picture and the main issues. I should like to discuss briefly four specific, but mainly unrelated, minor spheres in which I believe there is scope for energy, and specifically fossil fuel, conservation, together with balance-of-payments savings.
Since the implications of the oil crisis first impinged upon the public conscious-ness, I have been struck time and time again by how often when one walks in the middle of winter down the main shopping streets of London or other towns and cities one gets almost bowled over by gusts of warm, expensively centrally-heated air gushing through the wide-open doors of certain shops, whether department stores, dress shops or street corner tobacconists. The majority of shops keep their doors closed in cold weather—a notable example being Harrods—and this has no noticeable adverse effect upon trade. But a size-able minority do not, and taken over the country as a whole this must add up to a very considerable waste of fuel. It may be argued that this is purely a matter for the commercial judgment of the shopkeepers concerned or, in the case of chain stores, their shareholders. But I would dispute this.
Although the Exchequer may benefit from the higher taxes paid on the fuel wasted, the balance of payments must suffer. Furthermore, the higher over-heads must ultimately be reflected in higher prices for the goods sold. Any-thing that unnecessarily nudges up the cost of living, however imperceptibly, must be deplored. I do not believe this is a matter for legislation, even if such

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legislation were enforceable, which I doubt. There are far too many restrictive laws in this country already. But I believe it to be a suitable case for exhortation. I wonder whether the Department of Energy would consider drawing attention to the folly of this wasteful practice during the next stage of their advertising campaign.
Secondly, there is the question of insulation standards, to which other noble Lords have drawn attention. We must all welcome the double thermal standards recently proposed for new housing—not before time. But the question is: Do they go far enough? It is generally supposed that Norway is an exceptionally cold country in winter. In reality, on the coast where most of the population lives, the climate is Atlantic rather than continental, mainly because of the Gulf Stream and the prevailing South-Westerly winds. In fact, the average winter temperature on the coast is 43 degrees Fahrenheit. In other words, there are climatic as well the ethnic and linguistic affinities with the East Coast of Scotland. Norwegian law requires all new houses to have at least 15 centimetres of loft insulation, as well as sufficient extra insulation on the underside of the pitched roof to prevent the water tank, normally located in the loft, from freezing. In addition there must be at least 10 centimetres of external wall insulation.
At a time of financial stringency and high interest rates, there is understand-able antipathy among both local authorities and private house builders to anything that would raise the capital cost of new housing. Against this, as the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona, pointed out, certain forms of insulation pay for them-selves within one to three years. In other words, the return on capital invested varies between 33 and 100 per cent. Per-haps the answer should be on the lines of what was proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, and briefly touched upon by the noble Lord, Lord Nathan; namely, grants or some sort of fiscal assistance to householders who install additional insulation themselves to an approved standard. I would think that such assistance should be available to tenants of rented property as well as to owner-occupiers. In this connection, it might be even more of an incentive if
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such works could be classified as tenants' improvements rather than landlords' improvements.
Thirdly, there is the question of solar heating. The noble Lord, Lord Balogh, was sceptical about the feasibility of this, and indeed most of the recent comment in this country has been somewhat dismissive. But anybody who has taken the trouble to measure the temperature in a South-facing room during the months of December and January and compared this with the temperature in the North-facing room in the same building will have discovered that even in the short days of mid-winter solar radiation in this country is remarkably intense. The proof of the pudding is that there exists a school in Cheshire—I believe it was originally a secondary modern school, and presume it is now a comprehensive— which has been heated by nothing other than the sun's rays for the past 15 years or thereabouts. At the time the school was built the local authority was as sceptical as the noble Lord. Lord Balogh, and insisted upon boilers being installed, at great expense. So far as I have been able to discover they have never been used, even during exceptionally cold winters.
Of course, there have been certain problems with this school. It has become excessively warm on certain hot summer days, and it was argued at one time that the capital cost was rather high in relation to the fuel saved. This may have been a valid argument up until last year. But with the enormous increase in oil prices, surely the equation is altered. I believe that solar heating, which it should be remembered involves no maintenance costs to speak of, should be taken much more seriously in this country.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, if I might interrupt the noble Lord, I much welcome his support on this point but he could be spoiling his case by overstating it. If I remember correctly, this school has always had a large contribution to its heating load made by the lighting load, and sometimes lights are switched on and off when lighting is not necessarily neeeded, if it is found to be a little cold.
Lord MONSON: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for pointing

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that out. He has obviously studied the school in far greater depth than I have.
My final suggestion may seem rather more peripheral to the main issue in that the overall fuel saving, if it were adopted, would not be enormous, but I none the less put it forward for other reasons. Three weeks ago in your Lordships' House I drew attention to the way in which the exceptionally high cost of conveying bicycles by rail discouraged holidaymakers, students and others, from travelling by rail rather than by road. I had no idea at the time of the interest this would arouse and of the extremely strong feeling held by so many people on the subject. It is quite clear from my relatively large correspondence that these high charges discourage people, particularly those with families, from travelling by rail and drive them on to the roads.
The Motion speaks of the balance of payments. Apart from the obvious advantages of fuel saving, is it not conceivable that if these charges were lowered more foreign holidaymakers might be attracted to this country, with a consequent benefit to our balance of payments? On the last occasion I drew attention to the fact that in France the maximum charge for the conveyance of a bicycle was 58p, compared with £3·60 in this country, However, France is not unique in that respect. Sweden is a high cost country, yet to convey a bicycle from Malmö in the South to the Norwegian border beyond Kiruna in the North—a distance of 1,300 miles—costs a mere £1·26. Charges in other Continental countries are much in line with these. In fact, it is British Rail who are out of step.
Apart from the conveyance of bicycles, there is the question of storage, in so far as commuters frequently wish to cycle to a station car park and continue their journey by train rather than drive their car all the way into London. In The Times the other day a gentleman drew attention to the fact that the charge for storing a bicycle in a station car park is 15p, exactly the same charge as for a car, which seems to be rather ridiculous. Other correspondents have informed me that the charge for leaving a bicycle in a left luggage office is 25p, which also seems to be high. Another person, a war disability pensioner who is unable to walk
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to the station because of his leg wound, can none the less cycle there. He pays for the privilege of leaving his bicycle, returns every evening to find that it has been vandalised, and the station staff disclaim any responsibility for it. I raise this as an example of the kind of improvement which might be made in this sphere.
Of course, Parliament does not have power, and should not have power, to interfere in the day-to-day management of the nationalised industries. They must make their own commercial judgments. However, I suggest that by bringing charges for conveying and storing bicycles into line with the charges prevailing on the Continent, the balance of commercial advantage would coincide with the public interest, and I urge the management of British Rail to look at this matter again.
6.12 p.m.
The Earl of LYTTON: My Lords, I take part in a rather complicated debate in which I shall try to construct my words so as to fit in with those of other people. I am glad to take part in a debate which has been initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, because I served as a Staff Captain in the War Office when his father was Parliamentary Secretary to the Secretary of State for War. I remember a day in 1937 or 1938 when he chaired a conference. Everybody at the junior level who was there knew that there was going to be a war. We did our best to prepare for the gathering storm against the unpopularity of everything that we tried to do, with a conspicuous lack of support from the Treasury and the Government. I was secretary to a body called the Air Defence of Great Britain, which dealt with all the gun sites, all the aircraft sites, all the magazine sites, all the radar sites and, later, all the barrage balloon sites and that kind of thing. We had to get those sites, but nobody wanted us to have them.
A deputation, which was representative of many, visited the War Office and attended the conference chaired by the father of the noble Lord. A borough councillor said, " No, we don't want a gunnery in the park. This North London park is one of the ' lungs ' of London ". The hospital board said, " We don't want a gunnery which will break the windows of the hospital and keep the patients

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awake." An allotment holders' association made strong representations. They said, "We grow the nation's food. You can't dispose of us, even for a gunnery." The noble Lord's father listened patiently, as we all do, and, unlike so many Ministers, he did not say, "I have listened with great interest to the important remarks made to me during the afternoon and everything that has been said will be taken into account and most carefully considered before the Government make up their mind." He said, " That gunnery stays where it is". So few people say that kind of thing, but I think that is what has to be said in connection with the present situation although, of course, the context is different.
I was going to speak only on the subject of the balance of payments. However, I should like to make one or two very brief remarks on the subject of energy. I take it we are all agreed that one of the things which has precipitated the unity of the Arab world is the failure to solve the problem of Israel, and that the fulfilment of Resolution 242 would do an immense amount to "roll the pitch " and make it easier for everything in the Middle East where, in 1919, they ate out of our hands. Ever since the atom-sphere has been contaminated. Secondly, I was going to ask the noble Lord, Lord Hinton of Bankside, who made a splendid speech, what has happened to deuterium. That is the long-term nuclear element which is to be found in limitless quantities in the ocean. I imagine that the noble Lord indicated its impossibility when he said that fusion fuel was out of the question. However, when one is reduced to despair, because oil, gas, coal, wood and all the other things have gone, we shall have to deal with what is left, and I wonder whether anything is being done in the matter of deuterium which, as a nuclear fuel, is to be found in virtually unlimited quantities.
Lord AVEBURY: My Lords, in the annual report of the Atomic Energy Authority for 1972–73, it was stated that a fusion reactor which would be based on a mixture of deuterium and tritium fuels could not be expected to be in operation, even in prototype form, before the end of the century.
The Earl of LYTTON: My Lords, I am very grateful for the latest "stop press" news. However, 600 years have been mentioned, and as deuterium is calculated to last, at the present rate of consumption—which, no doubt, will increase—for 1,000 million years, I was just looking ahead a little way.
To turn to the balance of payments, I follow as closely as I can the line which has been taken by the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, who preceded me in the debate. However, I want to step back a little in history, because I am interested in the balance of payments. By that I mean all the transactions on the foreign exchanges, both visible and invisible—everything concerned with the balance of payments and not just the visible trade. I remember the arguments about the disturbing effect of reparations in a vast field, attributed to Clemenceau, but underlined by a very susbtantial panel of British bankers. Then followed the war debts and the economic consequences of Mr. Churchill's sticking out his chin, determined to look the dollar in the face—in other words, over-valuing the pound. One of our greatest men surely made some mistake there. Then, the French hoarded quantities of gold, and revalued the franc in 1928. The United States, by insisting on the repayments of war debts—all of which went through us, and we waived our claims to others—was known to this country as " Uncle Shylock ".
My Lords, through all these years our greatest men had been continually making dire mistakes about what was best. We were afflicted by the international gambling which ended on Wall Street in 1929. But our leaders have not succeeded. Mr. Wilson has failed; Mr. Heath has failed. We want a genuine kind of humility which admits that this is a difficult problem. Anyone who denounces the other side because of what they are doing has no support from me. I have watched too many great men doing their best and failing to succeed. How-ever, in the end we have succeeded.
In 1938 we had one anti-aircraft gun on the Medway. I attended its unveiling, and a German aircraft flew over as a sort of ceremonial salute, by accident. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, that we are in the greatest danger, and

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we must face it. I agree with his observations on the subject of the social contract. I owe a debt of gratitude to the Chief Whip on the Government side, Baroness Llewelyn-Davies, for having sent me a very full letter explaining the social con-tract and the documents comprising it, which are four in the main and two sup-plementary, all of which I have studied. I wrote to her in return with the observation that I thought the guidelines were aimed insufficiently, and that the result might be to preserve inflation at 20 per cent. That is all that can be expected, if indeed that figure is not exceeded. I should have thought that something like a 20 per cent. reduction in consumption, or something more than that, should be aimed at. However, I have no wish to deride the document. It is not a contract; it is not really social. It is a kind of arrangement by the Labour Party, representing one third of the electorate—and they are important, because they are the Government. The number of trade union members represented could be as low as one-twentieth. Therefore, it is a very tenuous contract, but I see no reason why it should not be furbished, made to grow, or even why it should not make some sort of arrangement which could be developed and then taken over by one Government from another. I do not wish to poke fun at it; it is easy to do that, because it is nothing it claims to be. But it is a seed from which something may develop. I should like it to succeed. Everybody has failed. So let us not throw over this little seed of possibility for the future.
My Lords, as regards the policies of the right honourable gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it seems to me that the real enemy in this country is inflation. It is not the only enemy, but it is something that is not under our control, but which should be. It is the massive increase in income in excess of growth. All the leaders have said the same thing. Mr. Wilson, "One man's wage rise is another man's price rise"; Mr. Heath, "One man's pay rise is another man's redundancy " ; Mr. Healey, just recently, " Everybody's rise is going to lead to national bankruptcy ". All are agreed. Therefore, we should wish them well in their efforts. There are things about the policies of the right honourable gentleman Mr. Healey which I detest and deplore. Privately, to different friends of mine, I have indicated what I
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dislike, particularly the policy which seemed to me to be converting a "nation of shopkeepers " into a nation of shop assistants, which is another way to describe Marxism. I see he is yielding on this. I do not chide him, or gibe at him, as did the leader in the Daily Telegraph a day or two ago. When something happens which seems to agree with my way of thinking, I say, "Thank God we are on the same side so far!". I have no wish to make gibes at anyone.
I appreciate that there are rogue employers and rogue employees. As I see it—and I am sure noble Lords from all sides of the House must feel the same —the rogue employer is just as likely to be Henry Ford, raising wages irrespective of whether it suits the country or not—he has done it before. And the rogue employees are the miners, much as I respect them. Everyone knows it. They could ruin the whole social con-tract. I earnestly hope that the Government will succeed and that the Opposition will support them in everything that is necessary. There is so much that we must all support. We are facing the grave danger mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Robbins. I am in agreement with him also that the man in the street simply does not know what it is about.
I have taught this subject, and I know that the number of people who confuse the balance of payments with balancing the budget is legion. I am not at all just that, if the extracts from his diary certain that Mr. Crossman did not do in the Sunday Times are to be relied on. He certainly knew nothing about bank rate, because when he quotes a very sensible remark made to him by the right honourable gentleman Mr. Callaghan, he says, " God only knows what he meant!" Everybody else should have known. One should not speak of the dead, but these diaries bring out criticism of everyone else and they do not add greatly to Mr. Crossman, because among the most ignorant is himself.
My Lords, I should like briefly to comment on the reference made by the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, to Germany and Japan and their successes in balancing their payments. They are two defeated nations, but they have a remark-able discipline. Discipline is a thing we have not got and probably do not want.

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There is a certain lack of discipline in this country, which is bad.
Lord ROBBINS: My Lords, if I may interrupt the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, I did not say that Japan had succeeded in wiping out her deficit. I said that the Japanese were making good progress.
The Earl of LYTTON: My Lords, I am obliged for that correction. Is it not a fact that France is not doing too badly? France is a very undisciplined country. But I was going to say that if you get a job in Germany, you have to clock in and clock out, and there are some rules which you obey. They have strikes, but this is a different matter. While you are on duty there is a certain discipline. The workers are well paid, they enjoy their work, but they have to toe the line. Not only is Japanese labour good but their products arc good also. At one time I remember it was said of the Japanese that they could only imitate what others do. There was a story told between the wars that somebody sold them a plan for a battleship which was faulty, and they made it without examining it carefully and it turned upside down. The Japanese do not now correspond with this picture we once had of them. Their products, their wireless sets and televisions and some of their cars, are first-rate work. We must catch up again. There are things to be done on both sides; both the labour side and the technical side in this country have got into the doldrums.
For this immediate crisis, the danger lies in the vast amount of wage increases. The present Government have a very grave problem in front of them. We cannot have a General Strike. I remember the one in 1926. It is impossible now ; we have developed so far that such a thing is out of the question. It would mean too many people dying in hospitals on operating tables, and heaven knows what! It cannot be. Therefore we must get agreement with people and they must restrain themselves. My Lords, owing to the fact, as I said, that I have reconstructed my speech it is all higgledy-piggledy, and I think it is time I ceased. Alas! I have been talking for 18 minutes.
6.32 p.m.
Lord SEEBOHM: My Lords, as a banker I must stick to the financial aspects of this debate. I find it deeply disturb-
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ing that so few people I meet seem to realise and acknowledge the seriousness of the situation as it exists at this moment. But what I find far more disturbing is that those who must know and under-stand the situation seem to lack the courage and the political will to do any-thing about it or to take any positive action. Like the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, I, too, am not a prophet of doom. I think there is no reason whatever why this country should not be able to pull itself out of this mire provided it takes the right action within two or three years. I propose, therefore, to make a few brief comments about the situation as I see it and to suggest positive action which I think might be taken to put things right.
The energy crisis—which, naturally, is generally known as the price of oil crisis —is an important and very serious matter, but it is not the only matter that has got us into our troubles. The noble Lord, Lord Robbins, has already mentioned the general increase in the cost of raw materials over the last few years. We know there has been a transfer in favour of the developing countries from the manufacturing countries, which means a positive transfer of wealth from the manufacturing countries to the producing countries. The conclusion from this is—again, as the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, has pointed out—that our standard of life has to be reduced. It is no good thinking that by borrowing abroad we can maintain this unjustifiable standard. This is the policy of the grasshopper who sang during the summer and made no provision for the winter.
It appears that our masters are some-what relying on the possibility of what is known as the recycling of petro-dollars. May I assure your Lordships that not one single petro-dollar is being recycled or will be recycled. What is happening is that groups of countries are getting together so that those who have substantrial currency reserves and those who have good balance of payments may sup-port those, like Italy and ourselves, who are in difficulties. I am not against the Kissinger proposals or the Healey proposals ; both of these are helpful. But the Kissinger proposals do not, in fact, move petrodollars themselves. The OPEC countries leave their investments and their money where they will. I personally prefer the Healey plan. I believe

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the IMF is, in fact, a far better solution, if one can persuade the OPEC countries to lend massive amounts of money to the IMF. If they do, they get the benefit of a basket of currencies, which avoids losing a great deal of money in one currency that might go down. It also means that the responsibility for the credit and the exchange risk is transferred from the rich countries—for instance, in Europe, Germany and France at the moment—to the IMF, where it is spread over all members of the Fund.
There is another scapegoat about which we now hear quite a lot: that is, that inflation and monetary instability is now international and something we cannot compete with. I should like to assure your Lordships that world financial stability depends entirely on the internal policies of individual countries, and I would say that the United Kingdom has made a major contribution—a fair share of disruption—owing to the uncontrolled and mounting inflation.
I suggest not a solution but something that might be done. I believe that Her Majesty's Government should now announce and launch a three-year programme during which they commit themselves, first of all, to control the rate of inflation, and then, by the end of that period, to make a significant reduction in the rate. We all know that it is impossible to cure inflation at this rate in a three-year period. If we did, the withdrawal symptoms would be far worse than the present situation. Therefore, I use the word "significant" intentionally and not dramatically. This involves a certain amount of unpleasant action. The first, which has been mentioned already, is the halting of increases in personal incomes in real terms. A complete income freeze—although it may appear attractive to some—again is out of the question. It is unfair; it is impossible to enforce, and again the withdrawal symptoms would mean that the cure is worse than the disease.
The next thing that must be stopped is the transferring of money from savers to spenders. We must stop taxing industry, which is trying to invest and produce the wealth of this country. We must, I am afraid, increase the taxation for you and me. At the same time we must stop any increase in public sector spending in real terms. This is
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absolutely essential. Those are things which must not happen. What do we do on the positive side? I believe we must help industry, first of all, by mounting a still greater programme of training and retraining, management and labour. This seems to me vital. On the social side, and also as an aid to halting unemployment if that comes, I should want to launch a major housing programme. This is something which is heavily overdue for every reason that I can think of. It also has the attraction, quite apart from increasing labour in a depressed area, of having a very small import content. It also, of course, has the final attraction of increasing the mobility of labour, without which retraining is probably ineffective.
To pick up a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, there has been new assessment of what is to happen to oil money. Until now we have assumed that it will go on increasing in the developed countries until 1980, 1985 and beyond. But what is happening is that the ability to import goods and services of the oil-producing countries is far in excess of anything anybody ever imagined. Recently an international bank has produced an estimate which may be optimistic, if that is the right word, to show that Iran by 1978 may be actually drawing down on the credit balances that it holds overseas, that by 1980 the oil-producers as a whole may be drawing down and not increasing their balances. There is likely to be one singular exception, which is Saudi Arabia, which has such a small population that its ability to import is probably strictly limited. But the implication of this is that the demand for goods and services, ports, airports, hospitals and schools, roads, railways, machinery and factories will be so large long before the end of this decade that it could start an export boom to the developing countries such as has never been seen before. We must ensure that this country not only gets a fair share but more than its fair share, because I reckon that at the moment we are taking more than our fair share of the hardships of oil deficiencies.
This may seem an optimistic view. In the short term the situation is extremely gloomy. Why I am optimistic in the long term I have been trying to explain. I believe that we could come out of this

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gloomy situation, but the Government must do everything they can to help this export boom. They should, as a start, restore the BNEC, which should never have been cancelled. We must get back to studying the markets and finding out precisely what is required, where the demand is, what we can do, and then so organise our industry that we can do it. But unless some programme on the lines I have indicated is introduced very shortly, I believe that our sources of overseas funds will dry up. I and other bankers were very closely involved in the raising of that £2·5 billion last year. I should like to assure your Lordships that that exercise could not be repeated again. If, however, such action is taken as I have indicated, I believe that the response overseas would be immediate. I believe that their faith in this country would be restored and they would do everything they could to make our plans effective. If we do not take this action, I believe that credibility in our Parliament and in our possible viability will not be restored.
6.42 p.m.
Lord LOVELL-DAVIS: My Lords, this has been an extremely interesting and timely debate. As my noble friend the Minister of State for Energy, Lord Balogh, has said, we welcome the Motion, particularly in that it provides an opportunity to explain how our energy conservation policy is developing. The whole of modern life is based on energy and the almost limitless uses to which it is put. Indeed, so great is the extent of its use that to face the need to conserve it is to take on a massive and complex problem. The scale extends from those areas of heavy use, such as industry, where it is easier to discern solutions in terms of energy saving and production methods, to the individual domestic consumer who is perhaps best able to estimate and know what scope he has for saving and making more efficient use of the energy he uses—or to get expert judgment on what he can reasonably expect to achieve in these terms.
Given this, it is neither sensible nor really feasible to list all the possibilities and attempt to quantify them. On the other hand, Government measures to en-force energy saving in the rigid way which would be necessary to achieve immediate and dramatic effects on our balance of payments would be inequitable, would
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cause hardship and probably, too, a misallocation of our resources. In the long term, the only satisfactory solution will be found by gaining the co-operation of the whole community. And that must be the main objective of Government policy at this time—to create an awareness of the need for energy conservation and then to win and build up that co-operation. In this respect the views that have been expressed during this debate are most welcome.
I should like to refer specifically to certain points which noble Lords have raised. I hope that noble Lords will bear with me as I try to work my way through the notes I have made. The noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal—to whom I am sure we must all be deeply grateful for initiating this debate—as my noble friend Lord Balogh said in his speech, covered much of our programme. Perhaps I could take one or two points which were not fully covered, but say at the outset that I fully agree with him in his stating that there is a case for long-term energy saving. The noble Lord referred to the heat pump. I understand that the Department of the Environment is looking at this. He referred also to the use of waste heat, in particular in the case of power stations. I think the noble Lord mentioned that the Central Electricity Generating Board were looking at this. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Energy, and his Advisory Council on Research and Development, have in fact set up a study group on forms of waste heat recovery.
The noble Lord also referred to the Severn Barrage. The Advisory Council on Research and Development considered this question at yesterday's meeting, and will reconsider the position in a month's time. Here again, the Central Electricity Generating Board is studying the project and will submit a paper to the Advisory Council on Research and Development. He also referred—and this was dealt with by my noble friend Lord Balogh—to the efficacy of the price mechanism as a means of saving energy, and I thoroughly endorse all that he said in this respect.
So far as companies carrying out their own energy audit is concerned, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State covered this in his twelve point package,

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and recommended to companies that they should include energy reports in their annual company reports and that this should also be made the subject of discussion, and it was recommended to them that they appoint an energy manager. It seems that companies are in fact following this advice.
The noble Lord also asked what the Advisory Council on Energy Conservation is supposed to do. It is supposed to do precisely what its name says, which is to advise on energy conservation. It has been meeting regularly since 23rd October 1974. The noble Lord referred to industry and asked why no CBI members, et cetera, were on the Council. The members of the ACEC were selected on a personal basis and not as representatives. Therefore, there are no representatives of the CBI on the Council, though it contains people from industry.
I turn now to the noble Lord, Lord Avebury. The noble Lord gave me some figures, but I am afraid that I did not initially take them all down. I have not had the opportunity to consider them ; I should very much like to do so, and I shall certainly refer this matter back to the Department. I should like to refer to the Waste Management Advisory Council, which was set up at the end of 1974 under the auspices of the Department of the Environment. Close contact between that Council and the Advisory Council on Energy Conservation is being maintained, and the Waste Management Advisory Council is to look into such matters as waste in packaging. So far as the Department of Energy is concerned, I can assure the noble Lord that our thermostats are turned down to 65 degrees.
I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Hinton of Bankside, for his excellent speech showing us clearly those areas where we should concentrate our efforts to develop new resources of usable energy. There is only one point on which I should like to take issue with him, and that is over what he said about an Energy Commission, and in particular his suggestion that the Government have failed to do anything to establish a strong inter-disciplinary team in the field of energy policy. May I remind him of what has been done to strengthen the resources available to the Government in this area
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since the setting up of the Department of Energy, in itself an important step towards the kind of expertise inside the Government which he wants to see. We have established an energy technology support unit at Harwell to assess the scientific and technological options open to us in various fields and to monitor progress abroad.
We have appointed a chief scientist to ensure that we get the best top-level advice on scientific aspects of energy policy. We have set up an Advisory Council on Energy Conservation to bring together experts from many different fields to assist and advise us in this important area. We have continued to develop the considerable expertise in energy fore-casting which the Department possesses through its computer models of the energy sector, and we have strengthened professional and technical staff available to assist us in the formulation of energy policy with the recruitment, since the Department was formed, of a further 60 technologists.
I do not believe it is fair, in the light of these measures, to assert that little or nothing has been done to build up an inter-disciplinary team within the Department. But I hope that on further reflection the noble Lord may return to the views which he expressed on the subject when this House debated it nearly two years ago. The noble Lord, Lord Nathan, referred to substantial capital investment expenditure. It is not necessarily the case. Small economies can amass great savings. He referred also to the improvement of new buildings. The improvement of building standards is something on which the Government have intervened, as he may be aware. He mentioned the development of small power stations. This matter is under consideration.
In my comments on the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, I have already referred to what is being done to consider the use of waste heat from industry. Again I referred to the matter, which the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, mentioned, of the need to develop a method of energy accounting. I think that perhaps this is not so fully developed quite in the sense he implies, but as I have said we are taking steps to encourage companies to

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include this information in annual reports and to appoint energy managers.
District heating from surplus heat from both power stations in industry is possible and is something which the Department keeps under constant review. But introducing such a system into areas of existing development requires substantial capital cost. It is far more costly than heating by other methods, but obviously it is something to be considered for new developments. Finally, the noble Lord referred to the need to enlarge the terms of reference of the Advisory Council on Energy Conservation. The Council has been meeting only since 23rd October last and it can and will adapt itself to suit the circumstances.
I am not an economist and therefore I find it difficult to comment in detail on the interesting and informative exposition which the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, gave of our balance of payments situation, except to say that energy does fit into this, and the conservation of energy helps our position in respect of our balance of payments. He also made the point, which was taken by his noble friend, about people being anaesthetised to the cry of "crisis". This is something which we are trying to do, and I will come to it in a few minutes, in creating an awareness of a crisis situation. I am aware of people being more and more conscious of the situation which we are in, but we have to get it across much more fully than we are at the moment.
To the noble Lord, Lord Monson, I should like to say that we will see that the advertising campaign is considered in the light of the points which he mentioned. As for solar heating, I am due to visit Cheshire shortly and since the friend I hope to see there is Director of Education in Cheshire, perhaps I will have a personal chance to look at the school in question.
I cannot comment on the cost of sending bicycles by rail. No doubt this subject could be referred to the appropriate Department or to British Rail. In reply to the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, here again I should like to say that, so far as deuterium is concerned, I am not farsighted enough to say much about it in view of the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, and the time ele-
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ment involved. Regarding the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Seebohm, so far as his three-year programme to control inflation is concerned, I can only hope that my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will have his attention drawn to the Hansard coverage of this debate. We will take into consideration all the recommendations and views which have been ex-pressed during the debate. The process we have established gives us scope within the Department to reinforce and extend existing measures and to take up new ones as they seem appropriate to the needs which may arise and as the time seems opportune. The work of the Department in developing the energy conservation campaign by no means stops with the many actions which have been taken so far. I shall not cover again the many points which my noble friend Lord Balogh dealt with so fully and concisely in his earlier speech.
However, I should like to refer briefly to the publicity campaign which we have launched and to put it into context. It is a very difficult matter to devise and maintain a campaign of this sort, for it is not typical in general advertising terms. We are not selling a product or even a service. Our aim in the immediate sense is to create and reinforce an aware-ness of the need to conserve energy, right across the board—to convince everyone that " energy sense is common sense "— to provide practical information for domestic, industrial and other users of energy, and to gain their co-operation.
More than this, however, we are engaged in what is, in fact, a process of education, and are setting out basically to change people's attitude towards the use of energy and their habits in using energy. Our aim is not to get people to " switch off something"—which, in the winter of 1973, was related entirely to an emergency situation and concentrated on one fuel, electricity, in an attempt to make large, almost brutal reductions in consumption over a very short period. Our campaign, now generally known as the " Save It" campaign, is more positive, concentrating immediately on the reduction of waste and the efficient use of energy to reduce the drain on our finances. But it also stands in a very large and important con-text, involving our whole attitude towards

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energy consumption in the future. It has to serve our immediate needs, but at the same time it must be the spearhead of a move to change that basic attitude. We are stating the antithesis of " the wasteful society ", and we are saying that we have to stop squandering energy and base the future of our society on real and generally finite resources.
The reasons are obvious and they are of some magnitude—in immediate order of precedence, economic, environmental, Third World, the very continuance of life on this planet. They need not be the cause of pessimism. As my noble friend Lord Balogh has said, we are not in the gloom business. On the contrary, to accept the need for energy conservation implies a positive and optimistic approach to the future. It is clear, from the surveys we have carried out, that people are growing more and more aware of the situation and of the fact that, so far as energy is concerned, we cannot go on living in the reckless way that has characterised the past decade or so. There are, therefore, powerful national and inter-national motives for making more efficient and economic use of our resources, and it is our aim to reinforce the growing public awareness of their validity. The fuel industries appreciate the need to encourage people to avoid waste, and the nationalised industries and some of the leading oil companies are running advertisements on an energy conservation scheme. Discussions are also being held with those industries in order to co-ordinate publicity on this important subject.
Misgivings have been expressed that fuel in any form should be advertised at a time when the Government are promoting an energy conservation policy, but it must be remembered that the aim of our campaign is to ensure that waste is avoided and energy used more efficiently. Many of the promotions by the fuel industries are designed to spread awareness of new developments and to assist the consumer to make a better-informed decision about what is appropriate to his or her needs. Moreover—and I think this is important, because much criticism attaches to this—in so far as the advertising of new energy-efficient appliances leads to the replacement of old and less energy-efficient machines, such promotion
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can itself be a means of reducing the wasteful use of fuel.
It is against this background that we should envisage the present publicity campaign, however much it may appear to be based on the technique of " soft sell" rather than a more aggressive approach which we believe would operate effectively only in the short term. In all the Department's activities in this respect, we are aiming to promote action and thought, to provide practical information, to stimulate discussion and to educate over the long term. In our approach to energy conservation, we hope that we may be establishing a base from which to launch projects not only from this Department but also from others. I feel that the matter of creating an aware-ness of the country's true economic situation is also involved, because our approach can be used to achieve even greater and more complex economic and social objectives for the future.
My Lords, while not wishing to end on too Party-political a note, and while welcoming many of the suggestions which have been made this afternoon, I find it very hard to accept much of the ill-conceived criticism to which our efforts have been subjected. We firmly believe that the measures which the Government are taking are the right ones. We know that they are already having an effect and that, as they develop, they will achieve our aims in both the short and the long term. In brief, we are convinced that our approach to the solution of these highly complex problems is the right one.
7.4p.m.
Lord STRATHCONA and MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, we have tried this afternoon to cover a remarkably wide field and I should like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lovell-Davis, on the way in which he managed to answer so many of the points which have been raised this afternoon. The noble Lord, Lord Balogh, expressed some surprise that there were not more speakers and, incidentally, I noticed that there were none from the Benches behind him. However, I think that if we were lacking in quantity, we can honestly say that we made up for it in quality and authority, and, I am afraid, in some

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regrettable cases, in length—in my own case, at any rate. May I add that I owe the House an apology. I gave the House some figures from the American magazine Foreign Affairs, which the noble Lord, Lord Balogh, very properly questioned. These were figures for the monthly transfer and I quoted them as per annum figures, when they should have been spread over five years. The noble Lord tells me that he still thinks that they are too high. I suggest that this mistake shows merely that at least some of us are totally bemused by the sheer magnitude of the colossal figures which are bandied around.
My Lords, I should particularly like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Nathan, who, I think, implicitly gave some sup-port to some figures which I used and of which my understanding has been questioned by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, and, to some extent, by the noble Lord, Lord Hinton, that great scientist who gave such an excellent, though not wholly encouraging glimpse of the future. The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, clearly remembers my father as a man of very much greater stature than his son, and I am grateful for his kind family reminiscences.
I felt that we finished on a splendid note of good sense and even of cheer from the noble Lord, Lord Seebohm, and this was rounded out very nicely by the noble Lord, Lord Lovell-Davis, who, at least so far as the Government were con-cerned, was making all the right noises. My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, with-drawn.

PROCEDURE OF THE HOUSE
Second Report from the Select Committee made, and to be printed.
  HOUSING: PURCHASE OF LAND
  HOUSING: PURCHASE OF LAND