Sitting of 13 November 1974

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  ENVIRONMENT

    Sewerage and Main Drainage Charges
    Miss Fookesasked the Secretary of State for the Environment when ratepayers not receiving sewerage services may expect relief from the present charges.
    Mr. Stanleyasked the Secretary of State for the Environment from what date those not on main drainage will be exempted from the main drainage element in sewerage charges.
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Gordon Oakes): My hon. Friend the Minister of State with responsibility for sport and recreation hopes to make an announcement very soon.
    Miss Fookes: We expected a more positive answer than that. When shall we get some information?
    Mr. Oakes: Very soon, as I said.
    Mr. Stanley: As the Minister has apparently conceded that it is not right that properties not connected to mains drainage should bear the mains drainage element in the sewerage charge, will he convey to his hon. Friend the firm expectation of people thereby affected that the exemption should apply as from the next financial year, 1975–76?
    Mr. Oakes: The report from the water authority has been received, but I will convey the hon. Member's view to my hon. Friend.

    House Building
    Mr. Carterasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he is satisfied with current levels of house building.
    Mr. Skinnerasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what are the latest housing figures both public and private; and if he will make a statement.
    The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Anthony Crosland): Up to the end of September 1974 the number of houses completed in the public sector in Great Britain was up by 13 per cent., houses started by 28 per cent. and houses put into contract by 35 per cent. compared with the same period of 1973. Comparable figures for the private sector show falls of 26 per cent. in completions and 52 per cent. in starts. I am deeply dissatisfied with these figures. Despite the rise in council house building and the much healthier flow of mortgages, the position is still highly unsatisfactory. I am urgently considering what further initiatives we might take.
    Mr. Carter: I thank my right hon. Friend for that full reply. When I last put this matter to the Government before the Summer Recess, 30,000 people in Birmingham were on the waiting list. That figure, together with homelessness, overcrowding and broken families has now increased. Is there nothing that my right hon. Friend can offer in the short term to cities like Birmingham which are probably facing their worst housing crisis since the immediate post-war period?
    Mr. Crosland: I accept everything that my hon. Friend said. His description could of course be applied to many other towns and cities. We took urgent action in two directions, by the £350 million made available to local authorities under Circular 70/74 and also by the loan to the building societies. I am certain that further action is needed and I would greatly welcome any suggestions from any hon. Member on this score.
    Mrs. Knight: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that perhaps the worst area of need in housing is of persons who have been isolated by redevelopment programmes and have been left quite alone or with only a few neighbours in an area which has been demolished?

    383
    These people are plagued not only with vandals but with rats and other nuisances. Will the right hon. Gentleman ensure that persons in this unhappy situation are put at the top of the priority list for rehousing?
    Mr. Crosland: I think that the category described by the hon. Member is certainly one of the worst. Whether it is the worst is a matter we could discuss. My view, which I have constantly expressed, is that part of the problem arises because over the last 20 years there has been too much clearance and too much demolition. However, we face an overall housing problem of the greatest severity and we cannot look at only one aspect of it.
    Mr. Beith: One of the least noticed but very bad features of the Housing Finance Act was the way in which it starved local authorities of finance for council house building. In rural areas particularly it is imperative that we move very quickly on this.
    Mr. Crosland: I am aware of that effect of the Act but I do not want to single out rural areas. The entire housing programme, rural and urban, is in need of greater resources than it has now, despite the substantial enlargement this year of the financial resources available to it.
    Mr. Mike Thomas: As well as house building, the revitalisation of old houses is important. Will my right hon. Friend say what progress his hon. Friend the Minister has made in the discussions he has had with Newcastle City Council about its proposals and the application of those proposals to the national problem?
    Mr. Crosland: I understand that my hon. Friend has been to Newcastle and is now awaiting further reports from the council. Of course I strongly agree with my hon. Friend on his general point. Another disturbing element in the total housing picture which we are watching carefully is the sharp decline—sharper even than had been expected—in the number of improvement grants.
    Dr. Hampson: Hon. Members who asked the Department for further information after hearing the right hon. Gentleman's speech calling for quicker and easier new means of housebuilding were sent an advertising circular from Blue
    384
    bird Homes. Does this imply a commitment by the Department to a programme of using these prefabricated units?
    Mr. Crosland: No, Sir. I have no idea what the communication was, so I shall be happy to look at the matter. There is no commitment to use any particular type of system or any other kind of building. The object of my speech was to raise for urgent and open public debate the question of whether we should be prepared to use unorthodox methods to build more houses more quickly and more cheaply.
    Mr. Skinner: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I have been informed that the Question which I tabled, Question No. 9, has been coupled with Question No. 2 [HON. MEMBERS: "Too late."] I was not late for Question No. 9. I came into the Chamber in the belief that Question No. 9 would be taken in its usual order and I assumed that I would be called to put a supplementary question.
    Mr. Speaker: I have no intention of ever calling an hon. Member to put a supplementary question to a Minister's answer that the hon. Member has not heard.
    Mr. Michael Lathamasked the Secretary of State for the Environment by what percentage private house building starts in Great Britain declined in the period June to August 1974 compared with (a) the previous three months and (b) the equivalent period in 1973.
    The Minister for Housing and Construction (Mr. Reginald Freeson): Total private housing starts in Great Britain in the period June to August 1974 were lower than starts in the periods March to May 1974 and June to August 1973 by 12 per cent. and 51 per cent. respectively, allowing for seasonal adjustments.
    Mr. Latham: In view of those disastrous figures, which have become worse since August, why did the Minister say publicly in both August and October that the recession in private house building had at last been ended?
    Mr. Freeson: I cannot be responsible for what appears in the headlines of newspaper reports. What I said then, and repeat now, is that after the most disastrous collapse in private house building

    385
    and in the public sector that this country has seen for many years, which we inherited on coming to power, there are clear signs of a levelling out. But we have a long way to go to get back even to the unsatisfactory levels of one or two years ago in the total house building effort, private and public.
    Mr. Skinner: Does my hon. Friend realise that if he wants to build more houses it is not sufficient to be constantly talking about it at conferences and so on but that we need to divert resources? Does he recall that in 1966–67 the reason why we had the biggest housing boom in this country was not that we were saying so but that we diverted resources from office block building? Will my hon. Friend now adopt the same posture and stop the building of the Channel Tunnel, saving cement and other resources in the process? Will he stop the building of marinas on the South-East coast? Will he divert resources—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman has already asked about three questions. He must not be so selfish. He must realise that he is taking up the time of other hon. Members. He is being very selfish.
    Mr. Freeson: Certain of the points my hon. Friend raised are the subject of later Questions. On my hon. Friend's central point, however, I agree that there is a need to divert resources into more socially necessary expenditure, particularly on housing. We have embarked on that course in the past year by totals of hundreds of millions of pounds worth of resources, and we intend to continue along that road.
    Mr. Scott: First, I apologise for the absence of my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, West (Mr. Channon), who I think has written to the Secretary of State about his absence. The disastrous decline in house building reported to the House this afternoon is compounded by a further decline in the amount of improvement grants. What do the Government intend to do to reverse that trend?
    Mr. Freeson: The biggest single cutback in improvements follows in the wake of the cut-off in June this year under the Housing Act 1971, which was the responsibility of the last Government but one, the Government formed by the hon.
    386
    Gentleman's party. There are other reasons. The introduction of the Housing Act 1974 has resulted in a holding back of applications. We are in touch with local authorities and others involved to try to encourage the placing of applications even before the Act is implemented, so that there may be a steady build-up of applications being dealt with in the months and years ahead.

    Rate Support Grant
    Dr. Edmund Marshallasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is the present position in respect of his negotiations on the rate support grant for 1975–76.
    Mr. Gwilym Robertsasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what plans he has for increasing Her Majesty's Government's financial support to local authorities for the financial year 1975–76; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Crosland: I am still in negotiation with the local authority associations. But there will, of course, be a full debate on the Rate Support Grant Order when it is laid.
    Dr. Marshall: Will my right hon.. Friend make sure that all local authorities know how much grant they will each receive for next year before they have to take decisions determining their general rate levels? Will the domestic element of the grant be at a uniform level throughout England and Wales?
    Mr. Crosland: I am afraid my hon. Friend will have to wait a little longer for the answer to his second question, but I can say "Yes" in answer to his first point. We are well up to the timetable in the statutory negotiations that are now going on. This is in sharp contrast to our predecessors who were still negotiating at the end of January.
    Mr. Graham Page: Is the right hon. Gentleman negotiating on the traditional basis of a 60 per cent. rate support grant? Does he realise that for next year there should be a rates moratorium and a 100 per cent. grant and no rates charged?
    Mr. William Hamilton: Rubbish.
    Mr. Crosland: The House admires enormously the intellectual audacity of the right hon. Gentleman now that he

    387
    has moved into opposition, compared with his incredible and total caution when he was a Minister.
    Mr. Roberts: Does my right hon. Friend accept that whereas none of us on this side of the House would wish to join in the absurd clamours from the Opposition on this matter, there are many counties, such as Staffordshire, that are anxious to increase their services but at the present level of finance and expectations are doubtful whether they can even maintain their services?
    Does my right hon. Friend agree that irrespective of how comprehensive may be the social legislation coming from the House, it will be useless unless resources are available at grass roots for such things as social services and education to implement that legislation?
    Mr. Crosland: I agree with my hon. Friend that all local authorities would greatly like to improve all their services. However, I must point out that local authority spending in the past three years has increased by about 8 per cent. a year in real terms and it is highly unlikely that in the coming year local authorities will be able to have anything like that rate of increase in their expenditure.
    Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that the clamours which are coming from local government are coming from local authorities of all political persuasions and that they are becoming a little tired of being asked by this House to take on additional services only to find that, under whatever Government, this House denies them the necessary resources?
    Mr. Crosland: I am not sure whether this is the hon. Gentleman's first appearance following his appointment to the Opposition Front Bench, but in case it was I welcome him. I am well aware that those demands are coming from local authorities, of all political persuasions, I am also well aware that local government has a legitimate complaint against the central Government, of both 'political parties, because of the tendency to issue circulars urging constant increases in expenditure while making bland declarations asking for a reduction in total expenditure.
    On the other hand, what happens next year will depend not only on the deci
    388
    sions of the central Government but on the ability of local government to recognise that it is now operating in a very cold climate.

    Rent Increases
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Secretary of State for the Environment how many applications for rent increases have been received from rent officers since 1st October in each area from landlords of controlled houses and flats and also from landlords of regulated accommodation; and when he will introduce legislation to continue the freeze of rents before 31st December in the former case and a restriction of rent increases in the latter as undertaken in the Labour election manifesto.
    Mr. Freeson: The Housing Rents and Subsidies Bill, introduced on 6th November will halt the decontrol programme of the Housing Finance Act 1972 and restrict rent increases in regulated tenancies. The current rent freeze will be extended to 31st March 1975, pending enactment of the Bill. Between 1st and 25th October rent officers received 28,902 applications for controlled or formerly controlled tenancies and 10,682 for already regulated tenancies. I will, with permission, circulate the breakdown by rent assessment panel areas in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Allaun: May I welcome the continued freeze on controlled tenants who lack the basic amenities? However, does not the Bill that is to come before the House on Monday fail to keep the pledge to the others, the great majority of private landlord tenants, some of whom are now facing rent increases of more than £400 a year, which is both unfair and inflationary?
    Mr. Freeson: The Bill does not in any way run in conflict with the pledges made by the Government in the recent General Election. It will implement those pledges. With regard to the type of cases my hon. Friend mentioned, we are still considering whether some form of restraint on individual cases might be practicable. Certainly I would welcome any detailed information on particular cases so that this could be taken into account.
    Mr. Adley: Does the hon. Gentleman think that the good private landlord has a right to exist?

    NUMBER OF APPLICATIONS RECEIVED 1ST OCTOBER 1974 TO 25TH OCTOBER 1974

    Rent Assessment Panel Registration Area

    General de-control s. 35 HFA

    Following qualification certificate Part III HFA

    Other formerly rent controlled

    Already regulated

    London

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    8,310

    22

    8

    3,057

    Northern

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    2,382

    186

    8

    1,301

    Yorkshire

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    1,725

    122

    1

    738

    Greater Manchester and Lancashire

    …

    …

    3,157

    46

    1

    983

    Merseyside and Cheshire

    …

    …

    …

    …

    2,565

    27

    12

    713

    West Midland

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    2,272

    29

    7

    920

    East Midland

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    2,629

    81

    —

    762

    Eastern

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    1,438

    14

    3

    435

    Bedfordshire, Hertfordshire and Cambridgeshire

    308

    6

    —

    174

    Thames Valley

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    109

    1

    5

    92

    Bristol

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    227

    7

    —

    170

    Devon and Cornwall

    …

    …

    …

    …

    247

    3

    2

    196

    Southern

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    371

    3

    3

    257

    Surrey and Sussex

    …

    …

    …

    …

    360

    12

    1

    461

    Kent

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    1,467

    7

    9

    228

    England

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    27,567

    566

    60

    10,487

    Wales

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    687

    18

    4

    195

    TOTAL

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    28,254

    584

    64

    10,682

    Rates
    Mr. Rostasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is his estimate of the average increase in domestic rates next year; and what proposals he has to protect ratepayers.
    Mr. Crosland: No estimate has been made. But in the consultations which I am having with the local authority associations on rate support grant, I of course have very much in mind the implications for domestic rate rises in 1975–76.
    Mr. Rost: As the Secretary of State appears to have no intention of spreading the burden of huge rate increases more fairly, may I ask whether he will prepare legislation to let off retrospectively those ratepayers who rebel?
    Mr. Crosland: I have every intention of spreading the rate burden next year as fairly as can be done. I note always the solicitude which the hon. Gentleman shares for ratepayers in the neighbouring constituency to his.
    Mr. Snape: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the responsibility for the tremendous rate increases this year and the increases forecast for next year lies pri
    Mr. Freeson: Yes, until such time as, in one form or another, rented property is brought into social ownership.
    Following is the information:
    marily with the Conservative Party and in particular with the architect of the disastrous local government reorganisation, the right hon. Member for Crosby (Mr. Page)?
    Has my right hon. Friend also noticed that at least two newspapers have publicised the fact that a good portion of the tremendous increase is due to the salaries being paid to chief and senior officers in local government? Will he take steps to institute an inquiry into the creation of "jobs for the boys" that has occurred since local government reorganisation?
    Mr. Crosland: I go a long way with my hon. Friend. I think that the Conservative local government reorganisation was wasteful and extravagant, precisely as we prophesied it would be. I disagree with my hon. Friend only in that I think the guilt that he is trying to attribute should be shared more evenly. Half the guilt should go to the right hon. and learned Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon) for telling local authorities in January this year to calculate their rates on the assumption of only a 9 per cent. rate of inflation.
    Mr. Rossi: Will the Secretary of State either confirm or state to be inaccurate

    391
    the reports that seem to be coming in that rates may be increased by as much as 60, 80 or even 100 per cent. in some parts of the country in the coming year? If this is the alarming truth of the situation, will he take measures to ensure that the increases are kept within tolerable limits by making the appropriate central Government subsidy to local authorities?
    Mr. Crosland: There is a lot of jumping about on the Opposition benches, which I find puzzling. The last time I saw the hon. Gentleman he was on the Opposition Front Bench. I sympathise with him for his demotion in the course of the turmoil currently upsetting the party to which he belongs.
    I would hope that the average rate of domestic increase next year will be less than 100 per cent.
    Mr. Madelasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what plans he has for providing relief for ratepayers from April 1975: and whether these plans will include the transfer of the official quota of local education authority teachers' salaries to the Exchequer.
    Mr. Oakes: My right hon. Friend has told the House that he is at the moment discussing the whole Question of the rate support grant for 1975–76 with the local authority associations. I have no plans to transfer teachers' salaries to the Exchequer. Such suggestions form part of the Layfield Committee's considerations. It would be premature to act before it reports.
    Mr. Madel: As teacher's salaries are in a sense negotiated nationally, is not the simplest and fairest way to provide relief for ratepayers from next April to transfer these salaries to the Exchequer? That would be a simple and fair thing to do.
    Mr. Oakes: It would appear to be simple and fair but in fact it would distort the rate support grant and local government finance. I think it far better that the Layfield Committee should look into the full implications of how that suggestion would affect local authorities.
    Mr. William Hamilton: Assuming that such a transfer took place, what would it mean in terms of an increase in income tax?
    Mr. Oakes: I cannot answer that question directly but I can tell the House that the total bill for teachers' salaries for 1974–75 is £1,438 million, which is about 25 per cent. of local authority expenditure on rate fund services.
    Mr. Stephen Ross: Is the Minister aware of the great difficulties facing small shopkeepers and owners of commercial premises who have had no rate relief from the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the last financial year? Will the hon. Gentleman have a word with his right hon. Friend to see whether any further rate relief, which we hope will be offered for the next financial year, can be extended to small shopkeepers and owners of commercial premises?
    Mr. Oakes: Small shopkeepers and owners of commercial premises are well in our mind while we are at present discussing this matter with local authorities. We are aware of their problems.

    Breath-testing Kits
    Mr. Ashtonasked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether in the interests of road safety, he will introduce legislation to allow motorists to purchase for their own use the breathalyser kits now issued to the police.
    The Minister for Transport (Mr. Frederick Mulley): Legislation is not needed. Motorists can already purchase the breath-testing device used by the police.
    Mr. Ashton: Is my right hon. Friend aware that motorists can purchase the kits only by driving up to Blyth in Northumberland and obtaining them from the factory? In the interests of safety, is it not possible for my right hon. Friend to launch a campaign and ask the Automobile Association to stock breathalysers at its shops or to ask garages to stock them, so that motorists may have a breathometer as well as a speedometer?
    Mr. Mulley: My hon. Friend's intentions are good but his advice would be disastrous. We cannot and do not advise motorists to test themselves, because the test is only a screening device and can give a misleading result. It is well established that for some time after a person has taken a drink alcohol continues to be absorbed into the blood. Thus, a driver

    393
    testing himself may find that his blood alcohol concentration is below the limit when he sets out on a journey but it may later be found to have increased well above the limit.

    First-time Home Buyers
    Mr. McCrindleasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will take steps to help first-time buyers of homes both with regard to deposit and interest rates on mortgages.
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what plans he has for helping young married couples to buy first houses.
    Mr. Crosland: I am considering the question of mortgage facilities for house buyers as a critical part of the wider examination of housing finance.
    Mr. McCrindle: To assist young potential house purchasers, and at the same time to give a stimulus to the building industry, will the right hon. Gentleman consider the proposal made by the Conservative Party during the General Election to the effect that assistance should be given to the individual who cannot raise the complete deposit? Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that no matter how able building societies are to dispense funds for mortgages, unless and until a young couple buying a house for the first time can put down an adequate deposit all his efforts so far will be in vain?
    Mr. Crosland: I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman is inviting me suddenly to pledge a 9½ per cent. mortgage rate.
    Mrs. Knight: Good idea.
    Mr. Crosland: That was the most outrageously dishonest election promise of the past 20 years, and a disgrace to the Conservative Party.
    The hon. Gentleman raises a most important point. I know his personal interest in the matter. I am considering with the building societies and the builders a number of possibilities—whether special help for first-time buyers, the deferred payment mortgage scheme worked out between the building societies and the previous Government, or whatever else. These are all under the most intense and active consideration.
    Mr. Hamilton: Is my right hon. Friend aware that one of the most important groups of people in the category we are considering is that of young teachers, particularly in urban areas? Will he consult the local authority associations to see whether they can take over empty new houses and allocate a proportion of them to young teachers who cannot obtain accommodation, especially in the big cities?
    Mr. Crosland: I agree with my hon. Friend that the problem is acute in the big cities, although it is not confined to teachers, particularly in London. However, teachers form an important part of the problem. We have given local authorities wider powers to purchase empty houses and more money to do so. My hon. Friend's suggestion is worth pursuing.
    Mr. Moate: Is the Secretary of State aware that in some areas, particularly in my constituency, the purchase of large numbers of private houses, many empty at present but many as yet unbuilt, will ensure that there are no private houses available for first-time buyers if the process continues at the present rate under the provisions of the right hon. Gentleman's Circular 74/70? Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the matter seriously because of the implications for house buyers of the future?
    Mr. Crosland: I cannot agree with the hon. Gentleman's analysis. We are watching the situation very closely. The spectacle of some 40,000 completed houses lying empty month after month was intolerable at a time of acute housing shortage.
    Mr. Robin F. Cook: Is my right hon. Friend aware that many first-time buyers depend on a loan from their local authority to complete the purchase, and that the current rate of interest charged to local authorities by the Public Works Loan Board is 14⅞ per cent? Does my right hon. Friend consider it just that those with the lowest incomes, buying the cheapest type of house, often have to pay the highest rate of interest because of that?
    Mr. Crosland: I am well aware of what is an extremely intractable problem—the fact that a minority of local authorities. but an important minority, are

    395
    charging on mortgages an interest rate higher than the building societies' 11 per cent., sometimes substantially higher. I am urgently considering the matter with my colleagues. I should like to find a solution. The difficulty is to find one that does not involve yet another Government subsidy. I should be reluctant to take on board such a subsidy, but if it is possible to find a non-subsidy solution I should like to do so.
    Mr. Scott: On Monday the right hon. Gentleman is introducing a Bill which will considerably increase the subsidies that will go to municipal housing. Does he accept, as my right hon. and hon. Friends believe, that if there are extra resources to be found for housing they would be much better spent on increasing owner-occupation and enabling people to buy houses for the first time in particular?
    Mr. Crosland: I welcome the hon. Member for Chelsea (Mr. Scott) to the Opposition Front Bench, although it is disappointing that he should make such conventional and ideological noises. The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly well, having served on the Committee considering the Finance Bill, that I would like to increase both council house building and building for owner-occupation. In terms of tax relief for owner-occupation the subsidy bill, contrary to what the hon. Gentleman suggests, has been increasing at an extremely rapid rate in recent years and is still doing so. I strongly object to picking up one or other of these forms of tenure as being in some sense preferable. The need is to build enough houses of all types so as to give people a proper choice.
    Mr. Fernyhough: There are now 40,000 houses lying vacant. Will my right hon. Friend begin discussions with the builders and the private persons who may own them with a view to seeing whether he can sell them on the same basis as Conservative hon. Members would have sold council houses had they been returned to power last month?
    Mr. Crosland: That is a most interesting suggestion.

    Local Government Finance
    Mr. Hurdasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what advice he is giving to local authorities on the pre
    396
    paration of their budgets for 1975–76 pending the conclusion of his negotiations with local authority organisations on the level of rate support grant for that year.
    Mr. Crosland: In my speech last July to the Association of County Councils I warned local authorities that they should do any preliminary budgeting on the basis that there could be little, if any, real growth in their expenditure for 1975–76.
    Mr. Hurd: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that because of the amount of growth built in to existing programmes the only way that most local authorities can comply with the Government's policies on public expenditure is to make extensive cuts, including cuts in education? Would it not be more honourable for the Government to set out the position plainly, to accept their responsibility and not to muff the point and to hedge, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer did yesterday, on the practical effects of the Government's policies?
    Mr. Crosland: I read an excellent book by the hon. Member for Mid-Oxon (Mr. Hurd) when I was on holiday in August. It is sad that the standard of his interventions in the House is so far below the standard of his writing. The trouble is that his writings are a bit longer. I do not know what he means by talking about hedging. I issued an extremely severe warning to the Association of County Councils and I have quoted a brief passage from it. When we conclude the rate support grant settlement with the association I shall make plain to the local government world what is involved in their expenditure next year. There will be no hedging of any kind.
    Mr. Cant: Does my right hon. Friend accept that it is extremely difficult for local authorities to go from one phase in which over a long period, rightly or wrongly, they have been spending at a rate of increase of 7 per cent. to 8 per cent. to a phase in which they are subjected to the traumatic experience of having their current expenditure hoisted by threshold payments and a number of other considerations, only to be told by my right hon. Friend and the Chancellor of the Exchequer that local government expenditure is in for a no-growth period? I hope that the Government, even the

    397
    Government of my party, will be a little more realistic in their consideration of the grave problems that confront those responsible for local government finance.
    Mr. Crosland: I accept that all those difficulties exist. In the rate support grant negotiations I think and hope that we, the Government representatives, are acutely conscious of them.
    Mr. Arthur Jones: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that it is a matter not only of percentage reductions but of curtailment of services? I think that the right hon. Gentleman is avoiding the point if he is thinking only in percentage terms.
    Mr. Crosland: No. I hope that the settlement will not be such as to involve a curtailment of services. However, I am afraid that it will be such as to prevent growth obtaining next year at anything like the rate of growth in recent years.
    Mr. Tomlinson: Does my right hon. Friend accept that my constituents, although grateful for the relief they were given in the mini-Budget, cannot endure the kind of increases that are being expected of them, and that local authorities cannot for ever continue to have an expanding programme in the present economic climate entirely cushioned by the central Government?
    Mr. Crosland: I entirely agree.

    Gipsies
    Mr. Newensasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will seek powers to ensure that gipsies and other caravan dwellers are not evicted from areas in which local authorities refuse to make any provision for this category of citizens.
    Mr. Oakes: No, Sir. But I cannot emphasise too strongly that authorities which evict gipses without finding other sites for them are simply aggravating the problems created by unauthorised encampments for the community as a whole, besides causing unnecessary hardship to the gipsies themselves.
    Mr. Newens: Does my hon. Friend accept that it is totally inhuman to evict people when they have nowhere to go? Does he accept that such action creates problems of overcrowding in areas in
    398
    which authorities take a more enlightened line and understandably objections from residents? Will my hon. Friend take it from me that procrastination is no substitute for action on this issue? We have a duty to see that these people who have long been denied their rights of citizenship are no longer discriminated against.
    Mr. Oakes: I appreciate that my hon. Friend's local authority is a good example of a good authority providing sites. I remind him that there is a duty to provide accommodation for gipsies. That is already mandatory. Outside London that duty falls on the county councils. I hope that the authorities will carry out their stautory duties under the Act.
    Mr. Stanbrook: Is the Minister aware that the Caravan Sites Act has completely failed to solve the problem of unlawful gipsy camping and that a more efficacious and humane solution lies in the direction of registration of gipsy caravans plus licensing to use municipal sites?
    Mr. Oakes: The hon. Gentleman has made an interesting suggestion. We now have a gipsy advisory officer and I will draw the hon. Gentleman's points to his attention.
    Mr. Roderick: Does my hon. Friend propose legislating to provide more security for mobile home residents and to release so many of them from the tyranny that they now suffer from many landlords?
    Mr. Oakes: I understand that my hon. Friend the Miniser for Housing and Construction is investigating the matter. That is a different issue from that arising from gipsies.
    Mr. Farr: Does the Minister recognise that whatever may transpire from his gipsy officer it is essential that the Government recognise that the law now depends upon the Caravan Sites Act? There are county councils which are defaulting. As a result they place an intolerable and unfair burden on adjacent authorities. It is the Minister's job to act and to lean on the county councils which are defaulting. Will he do so?
    Mr. Oakes: We are doing that. Although it was treated with some mirth, one of the principal tasks of the advisory officer will be to give advice to county

    399
    councils and to point out to them the need in their areas and the help that they can give to other county councils that are providing sites and whose sites are overcrowded.

    Housing Waiting Lists (London)
    Mr. Jesselasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he has estimated the effects of the housing of homeless families in London upon the prospects of families listed on London borough council waiting lists.
    Mr. Freeson: The effects are difficult to assess quantitatively.
    Mr. Jessel: Is the Minister aware that the number of homeless families rehoused in London has increased sharply since last year? Is he further aware that some people contrive to make themselves homeless so as to jump the normal housing queue? That has been attempted in my constituency and other places. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this practice is unfair and detrim tal to families which have been on the waiting lists for a long time? What will he do to ensure that all local authorities in London prevent this from happening?
    Mr. Freeson: To put it mildly, the remarks of the hon. Gentleman are unfortunate. In Richmond, which is in his constituency, 50 homeless families were housed last year. In London as a whole there were approximately 14,500 applications to local authorities by homeless families. I would also suggest that the hon. Member's own borough should have his attention. Its housing programme could be rapidly increased on land which we know to be available. Well over 1,000 dwellings could be started on land known to be available.
    Mr. Russell Kerr: It is the worst borough in the country.
    Mr. Lipton: Since, as my hon. Friend said, local authorities in the London area have largely failed to deal adequately with London's housing problem, has not the time come for housing powers to be taken away from all the 32 London boroughs and the Greater London Council and vested in one authority that would tackle London's housing problem adequately and in a unified way?
    Mr. Freeson: I have heard that suggestion from time to time, although I have not seen it worked out positively and intentionally. More particularly, this whole question of London's housing strategy and the executive machinery with which we tackle housing problems in London is receiving careful and urgent study at my request in the Department. I hope to have consultations on the basis of some proposals that we will work out in the near future.
    Mr. Arthur Lewis: The Minister is right to suggest that the remark of the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Jessel) is unfortunate, but is he aware that it is true? It is very sad, but I have a letter in my bag at the moment in which the writer says how pleased he is that he is being evicted, since that is the only chance he has of being rehoused. The Minister knows that this is the problem now in London. People have purposely to get themselves evicted because that is the only way in which they can be rehoused. Will he please do something about it in the stress areas, one of which he himself represents?
    Mr. Freeson: As I said, it is unfortunate to say the least to suggest that 14,500 families—in fact the figure is much higher that is the official recorded figure and there are many more homeless families who do not apply—apply to local authorities on grounds of homelessness, or that even a majority of them are doing so. [HON. MEMBERS: "He did not say that."] It is unfortunate to suggest that even a majority or a large number of them are deliberately queue-jumping. The matter is too serious to be treated in that fashion.
    Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg: The matter is too serious to be treated in that cavalier fashion by the Minister. Perhaps he will turn his attention to the development of dockland, where in the last two weeks there has been yet another example to prove that the internecine war between his party on the boroughs and on the GLC is holding up development.
    Mr. Freeson: I am not aware of any internecine war. I am aware that the present machinery for looking at the future of dockland was sponsored by the hon. Member's right hon. and learned Friend the previous Secretary of State for the Environment.

    School Crossing Patrols
    Mr. Goldingasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will take steps to improve the school crossing patrol system.
    Mr. Mulley: The responsibility for providing these patrols rests with county councils, and improvements are a matter to be arranged locally.
    Mr. Golding: Is the Minister aware that there is evidence that the grave shortage of crossing attendants is due not only to the deplorable levels of remuneration but also to the reluctance of many old people to be seen carrying the "lollipop" stick, and that the rules which make it imperative for them to carry that stick are very much his responsibility?
    Mr. Mulley: I am of course willing to look into any suggestions which might help local authorities in their difficult task in this matter. There has been a joint Department of the Environment and Home Office working party which is shortly to consult local authorities. This point will obviously be considered along with it.
    Mr. Berry: In the interests of the safety of schoolchildren, will the Minister also speed up his experiments in the banning of car parking outside schools, as this could well lead to much greater safety for schoolchildren?
    Mr. Mulley: I think the House will agree that it is properly a matter for the local authorities concerned to decide which parts of which streets are banned to parking.
    Mr. Raphael Tuck: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this problem confronts many education authorities in many constituencies, including mine, that sometimes they cannot get the "lollipop" man or woman to stand at the crossing and that the difficulty then is that responsibility devolves on the parents, who are often at work? Will he try to evolve a system whereby the parents can breathe more freely and the children can be made safer?
    Mr. Mulley: We are ready to help in any way we can, but I must stress that this is a local county council responsibility and that we are seeking, in con
    402
    sultation with the associations, to issue general guidance. I will of course bear my hon. Friend's point in mind.

    Charity Commission Tenants
    Mr. R. C. Mitchellasked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will introduce legislation to ensure that rent allowances are payable to those tenants of properties under the control of the Charity Commissioners who make a contribution towards the upkeep of the homes rather than paying rent.
    Mr. Freeson: Eligibility for rent allowances is broadly confined to tenancies subject to the Rent Acts. But I am asking the Advisory Committee on Rent Rebates and Rent Allowances and the Charity Commission to consider this question. Meanwhile the Supplementary Benefits Commission may receive applications for help in a number of cases. I wish to express my thanks to my hon. Friend for bringing this matter to my attention.
    Mr. Mitchell: I thank my hon. Friend for that helpful reply. Is he aware that the Charity Commissioners have recently authorised increases of £2.40 a week on pensioners' flatlets under their control in Southampton? Is he further aware that, because these are not official rents but are called by another name, they are not subject to the rent freeze and the tenants, of course, are not eligible for rent allowances? Is this not a fiddle to get round the law?
    Mr. Freeson: I would not describe it as a fiddle. I presume that the organisation concerned is acting properly within the law and that it has its own rules of management. What I am concerned to do here is investigate ways in which we might—I stress "might"—be able to assist by a change in the law relating to the Rent Acts and the rent allowance system.
    Mr. Gould: Does my hon. Friend recognise that, although these payments do not count for rent allowances, they count as rent for supplementary benefit purposes and that this is therefore an anomaly, which means that the massive increases which have been referred to bear particularly heavily on pensioners whose income only just exceeds supplementary benefit level?
    Mr. Freeson: I certainly agree that it is an anomaly. That is why, as a result of the correspondence that I have had with my hon. Friends the Members for Southampton, Test (Mr. Gould) and lichen (Mr. Mitchell), I am looking into the matter to see whether any changes could be introduced.
    Mr. Douglas-Mann: Is my hon. Friend aware that it is not only the Charity Commissioners to whom this problem relates? There are many houses owned by his own Department, particularly in my constituency, where the tenants, who are paying a rent, not a contribution, are not eligible for a rent allowance. They are paying the full amount of the rent. The correspondence with his Department about this, dating back a considerable number of months, has not yet produced any arrangements for reducing the rent to the level that it would be if the rent allowance were payable.
    Mr. Freeson: I will certainly look into that point.

    Rating
    Mr. Skeetasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what he proposes to do about the rating system.
    Mr. Crosland: I am awaiting the report of the Committee of Inquiry into Local Government Finance.
    Mr. Skeet: As the Budget season is now upon us, will the Secretary of State recommend to the Chancellor that rates or a part of the rates be allocated as a deduction against income tax? Will he consider in his negotiations that the realistic rate of inflation is not 8·4 per cent. but 20 per cent.? Will he give a realistic rate in settling the terms which will shortly have to be negotiated?
    Mr. Crosland: Conservative Members have certainly been showing the most fertile imagination on the subject of rates since they assumed the rôle of opposition. There was no hint of this in their documents when in government. I will happily pass on the hon. Member's suggestion, perhaps not to the Chancellor but to Mr. Layfield, the chairman of the inquiry.
    Mr. Tom King: In showing fertile imagination, will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that his frivolous remark about there not being more than a 100
    404
    per cent. increase this year was intended as a definite joke? It will not be seen as a joke by many of my constituents and those of other hon. Members who after last year's increases are acutely worried about what they may face this year? That sort of remark will be taken out of context and misunderstood around the country and will give enormous concern.
    Mr. Crosland: I am sorry if a remark like that is to be so misunderstood and quoted, out of context. I find it hard to believe. If it is really the case, I am extremely sorry about it. I assume that the hon. Gentleman attended the two full, indeed fierce, debates on rates earlier this year. He kindly came to see me on a deputation on the subject. He must know that I am as acutely concerned as he is about the rating situation, and if an element of unwise humour is likely to be misunderstood I apologise for it.

    Mobile Homes
    Mrs. Sally Oppenheimasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will introduce legislation to provide a statutory form of contract between site operators and mobile home residents.
    Mr. Freeson: We still hope that the caravan dwellers and site operators' representatives will agree on a model form of contract.
    Mrs. Oppenheim: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that he is hoping in vain? That legislation has been introduced in the United States. Whereas there are good operators, there are some had ones who impose conditions on site residents which vary from unsatisfactory to intolerable. Do not the Government have a moral obligation at least to give site residents some security of tenure?
    Mr. Freeson: I certainly take the matter seriously, although it has not suddenly emerged in the last few months as a moral affront to the housing situation. We are looking carefully into the whole question, as my hon. Friend indicated in reply to an earlier Question. In the meantime I hope that it will be possible for the site operators and the occupants' organisations to get together on a model agreement. If not, we shall have to look at other ways of handling the situation. I agree that it is a very serious one.
    Mr. Ward: Will my hon. Friend look particularly at the question of additional charges levied by site operators in many parts of the country, such as the £560 development charge imposed by one site operator in Peterborough on a young married woman occupying a caravan on the site?
    Mr. Freeson: I shall be glad to receive information on any of these activities throughout the country, so that when we come to make decisions in due time on legislative and possibly other action we can do so on the basis of the fullest possible information about abuses of the questionable system under which site operators and others are acting.
    Mr. Ridley: In view of the long delay in getting the agreement signed, which smacks of foot-dragging by the site owners, will the Minister publish a draft model agreement so that on individual sites the tenants can take up the question of the site owner signing the agreement as part of a local bargain in advance of a national one?
    Mr. Freeson: That is one possibility that I have had in mind for some time while awaiting the results of the consultations.

    M20 Motorway
    Mr. Costainasked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he is yet able to announce the alignment of the M20 motorway following the report of the public inquiry.
    Mr. Mulley: I hope to announce a decision on the alignment of the M20 between Maidstone and Folkestone early next year.
    Mr. Costain: The inquiry took place a year ago last September. Multiple routes were put forward, with the result that a large number of houses have been blighted. If the Minister cannot make up his mind fully, will he make an interim statement indicating that certain routes will not be considered? That would enable some houses to be sold. It is ridiculous that the Minister should not have done anything about it after all this time.
    Mr. Mulley: I am concerned about the blight aspect, but the hon. Gentleman underestimates the complexities involved.
    406
    There were 400 objections and 24 alternative routes were put forward for consideration. To those alternative routes we received 1,400 counter-objections. Those objections obviously require a little time for study and for the necessary consultations. I attach great importance both to the M20 and to getting a decision as early as I can.

    A1—M1 Link Road
    Mr. Farrasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what degree of flexibility exists in the planned A1—M1 link road; and in particular if he will consider veering further north to relieve Leicestershire roads from east-west traffic.
    Mr. Mulley: Four possible routes have been proposed by the Department. I am prepared to consider any other suggestions put to me before I come to a decision.
    Mr. Farr: In the event of anyone being able to afford to run a car after yesterday's Budget, will the right hon. Gentleman look into the possibility of veering the road further north so as to relieve southern Leicestershire roads from the present intolerable traffic conditions? If he is not prepared to do so, will he bypass Market Harborough and take the route further south?
    Mr. Mulley: I cannot give an answer off the cuff when a public participation exercise is going on. If I were to answer either of those questions it would make nonsense of the exercise. Certainly we shall look at any proposals that the hon. Gentleman puts forward. For example, consideration was given to improving the A427 in the north but that has both environmental and cost difficulties. The question of a bypass concerns not only Market Harborough. Other towns in the area will fall to be considered when a final decision is taken on the route.
    Mr. Tomlinson: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the logic of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement yesterday is that we should stop wasteful expenditure on motorway programmes? If my right hon. Friend wants to find resources to help the hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr), a large number of my constituents will be happy for him to have the resources allocated to the M42 motorway, which nobody wants.
    Mr. Mulley: It is simple to say that, but the best way to save fuel is by reducing traffic congestion. The main purpose of the road is to relieve a large number of towns and villages from the nuisance of heavy lorries, and that is not affected by yesterday's statement.

    M6, Great Barr
    Mr. Rookerasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he is yet able to announce a contract for construction of the noise barrier of the elevated section of M6 motorway at Great Barr, Birmingham.
    Mr. Mulley: I am about to invite tenders and hope to award the contract early in the new year.
    Mr. Rooker: Will my right hon. Friend accept that I am disappointed with that answer, because in September my constituents were categorically assured that the barrier would be in position by Easter next year? If one part of the Department of the Environment can act on the Channel Tunnel, cannot another part of the Department do something to enable my constituents to get a night's sleep?
    Mr. Mulley: I do not know what decision will ultimately be taken about the Channel Tunnel, but the matter about which my hon. Friend is concerned will be attended to long before then. I pay tribute to the way in which he has pursued this issue on behalf of his constituents. He was informed by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State in September that we were having difficulty in finding people to undertake the work. That is the cause of the delay. We shall pursue the matter as fast as we can, having regard to the difficulty of getting people to submit tenders.

    Cost Yardstick
    Mr. Robin F. Cookasked the Secretary of State for the Environment when he expects to complete his review of the cost yardstick procedure.
    Mr. Freeson: I cannot say when this review will be complete as there are many criticisms and points of view to take into account. Meanwhile the increase in the basic yardstick announced in September should assist cost planning and reduce the amount of work for local
    408
    authorities and the Department in dealing with schemes.
    Mr. Cook: Since the review is taking an inordinate time, will the Minister consider simply abolishing the whole system? Did he hear the statement by the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday which, among other items of policy, included promoting the house building programme and stabilising local authority staffs? Would not the removal of this pernicious cost system save time, accelerate the house building programme and get us out of a situation which depresses house building standards since inflation always takes over from a review of levels?
    Mr. Freeson: I do not accept all my hon. Friend says, but I take the point that a number of people have urged abolition of the system. My view is that it is right to have some kind of cost discipline system in the provision of housing. Whether it should continue to take the form that it now does is a matter for consideration which will be taken into account in the study which we are undertaking. It is not taking an inordinate length of time since it was begun only in recent months.

EEC MINISTERIAL MEETING
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. James Callaghan): With permission, I wish to make a statement on the meeting of the Council of Ministers on 12th November.
I discussed with my Community colleagues the long-term problems which we are facing over sugar and also our renegotiation request concerning the British contribution to the Community budget. The remaining items on the agenda were dealt with by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and by my hon. Friend the Minister of State at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.
The House will be glad to know that the Council reached provisional agreement on a mandate to the Commission for negotiations with the developing Commonwealth sugar-producing countries. The mandate concerns the arrangements for their sugar exports to the Community from 1975 onwards.

409
It was agreed that the Community should offer access for 1·4 million tons of sugar a year on a continuing basis.
The Government were also anxious to secure that the bulk of the 1·4 million tons should come to the United Kingdom for refining in order to assist the cane-refining industry. I am glad to say that the Council accepted that in practice the great bulk of the sugar would be exported to the Community in accordance with traditional channels of trade. It follows that British refineries will get the bulk of the sugar delivered to Europe by the Commonwealth producers.
There was considerable discussion on the price that should be paid for the sugar. It was understood that a fair price will have to be offered if supplies are to be secured. But this is a matter which is closely related to the Community's internal sugar regime and it was decided that the Agriculture Ministers should settle this at their meeting on 18th and 19th November.
The Agriculture Ministers will also have to look at the question of the duration of the agreement with the sugar-supplying countries. We take the view that the arrangement should be for a number of years in order to safeguard the interests of both our traditional Commonwealth suppliers and our own cane-refining industry. This view is accepted by the other members.
When the Council of Agriculture Ministers reaches agreement on a final mandate at its meeting next week, the informal consultations which the Commission has already been conducting with the supplying countries will then be turned into formal negotiations with a view to reaching an early agreement.
I also carried further the discussion of our contribution to the Community budget. The House will recall that the Commission was asked by the Council on 4th June to produce a report. A copy of this was placed in the Library of the House on 29th October, and was before the Council yesterday. It broadly supported the two main contentions in my speech on 4th June.
First, Britain is already below the Community average as far as income per head is concerned and, because it is expected that our growth rate will continue to be below the Community average
410
for the time being, our income per head will decline further before it starts to climb back again.
Second, our contribution to the Community budget is going to be substantially above our fair share in relation to the Community avarega as far as income per duct. This situation must be remedied. Though I made it clear that we were ready to consider solutions to deal with the problem, I suggested that the Community might accept as a principle that member States with below-average GDP per head should not bear a share of the burden of financing the Community budget disproportionate with their share of the Community's CDP.
The first reactions of the other Governments were varied. But I noted in a number of speeches round the table that my analysis was not disputed. There is still a long way to go before we find out whether all concerned are ready to agree to a solution which we can accept. The matter will now be discussed intensively in the Community. I should like to be able to make progress towards a solution at the next Council meeting on 2nd and 3rd December, or, failing that, at the Summit in Paris the following week.
Mr. Rippon: I thank the Foreign Secretary for his statement and I express our relief that he is now beginning to recover from the self-inflicted handicap of the threat of withdrawal. It would have been a source of grievous complaint if the Community had not honoured a specific and moral commitment about sugar which we negotiated at the time and which I announced in this House at the time. What has happened is exactly what I told the House would happen when we discussed the negotiations and is entirely in accord with what I said time and again when we were discussing the European Communities Bill.
Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the problem now is not access but reasonably remunerative prices for the developing countries? Will he agree that it is difficult, looking to the years ahead, to predict the state of the weather and the state of the commodity market, but will he confirm that the European price is now well below the Commonwealth price and world prices and that as a result of our being members of the Community we shall have sugar at a lower

411
price than if we had stayed outside it? Will he repeat what the Minister of State said the other day that our food is now cheaper because we are members of the Community than if we were not members?
On the budget, I fully agree with him in seeeking a Community solution. I agree that what has been proposed by the Government is fully in accord with the provisions of the treaty and that if Britain's economic situation continues to decline in the way he suggests, and as is likely as long as we have a Socialist Government, we are entitled to seek relief from our contribution in the years ahead.
Finally, will he confirm that the budget contribution in the first two years has been less than we forecast and that as a result of the various payments and grants we have received, and also of the low interest rate loans we have enjoyed, we are already net beneficiaries?
Mr. Callaghan: I fully realise the right hon. and learned Gentleman's difficulties about that matter, and I would not like to make them more onerous. [An HON. MEMBER: "Why not?"] I have always been a kindly chap.
On the particular points he raised, the main problem to be solved is the very important one of price. In some ways I have perhaps had the easiest part of the task. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture will now have to conclude the fixing of the price to be offered.
I would not go along with the right hon. and learned Gentleman in saying that we shall now obtain sugar more cheaply because we are inside the Community rather than outside it. It will depend on the nature of the long-term agreement and on a number of matters, including the future of the Common Market. It makes no difference to the question of negotiating a long-term agreement with the Commonwealth sugar producers whether we are inside or outside the Community. Therefore, I do not agree with him about that.
As for obtaining assurances in regard to the 1·4 million tons, I do not recognise the right hon. and learned Gentleman's description of what he thought he had concluded when compared with what I went through yesterday. It seems to me that perhaps the more accurate way of
412
putting the matter would be to say that it is rather like a man who negotiates with the bank manager that in three years' time he will get an overdraft without settling the amount, the rate of interest or the terms on which it is to be granted. Yesterday we had to make provision for 1·4 million tons of sugar, which my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister when he was in Opposition indicated we would get. That is what we have done.
I know that the right hon. and learned Gentleman is sensitive about these matters, but he must try to accept the fact that now and again even he may have made a mistake when in Government. He did not tie up this arrangement. He must have that argument with someone else. I am not interested in that. But we got the 1·4 million tons and we got the continuing agreement yesterday. That is important, too. The period of time and the price have still to be settled. Fourthly, we got the major point, which is that through the normal channels of trade the sugar will come here.
As for the budget, I think that the burden that we are bearing is unfair. We are on an upward key. We are not paying the full amount that we shall pay, if it is not altered, in two or three years. That must be altered. It would make a substantial difference to the amount that we would have to pay across the exchanges.
Mr. Jay: Is my right hon. Friend aware that although the budgetary burden of EEC membership may not yet have approached £200 million a year, our total trade deficit with the EEC has actually doubled further compared with last year and is now running at about £2,000 million a yea:, and that therefore the budgetary burden is a comparatively minor part of the total economic burden of membership?
Mr. Callaghan: I hope that my right hon. Friend will not take that point. Surely it is worth saving £150 million a year across the exchanges if we can. It is true that our deficit with the EEC countries has gone up over the past 12 months or two years, but so it has with other parts of the world. It do not think that my right hon. Friend can draw conclusions necessarily from this, one way or the other.
Mr. Grimond: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is a fair price? If he cannot say that, can he tell the House the sort of criterion which may be invoked? Then can he say which are the countries now below the European average in income per head and whether they are likely to decline?
Mr. Callaghan: We have made no secret of the fact that the initial price that we would strongly support would be equivalent to not less than £140 per ton f.o.b. That is the kind of beginning figure. Nevertheless, this is to be a commercial negotiation and therefore it would be right for Ministers of Agriculture to settle where they think at what price they can get the 1·4 million tons.
As regards the countries below the average, speaking subject to correction, the countries below the average at the moment—the three worst off—are Ireland, Italy and the United Kingdom. This is a matter on which we should have grave reflection.
Mr. Luard: Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is a real danger that judgments about the sugar agreement will be over-influenced by the present short-term situation in the sugar market where we have a very high price and a world wide shortage? What the Commonwealth producers are mainly concerned about is a continuing long-term stable agreement at reasonable prices. Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that in his negotiations so far he has achieved that? If not, in the coming months will he be able to ensure a reasonable income for sugar exporters over the coming years?
Mr. Callaghan: I think that I can give a short answer to that. We were not concerned yesterday as Foreign Ministers with the short-term difficulties of the market. I was concerned with one of our renegotiating points, which was to get long-term access guaranteed on a continuing basis for 1·4 million tons of sugar. That is what we have.
As regards the price to be paid, it is difficult to talk about that when we recall that only six years ago the price of sugar was £30 or £40 a ton. It is now £550, and it is extremely volatile. But a guaranteed price will be worked out now for a substantial period of years with the Com
414
monwealth producers which will be well below the present world price but above the prices that they have been getting under the old Commonwealth Sugar Agreement, which is now running out.
Mr. John Davies: Although I am sure the whole House will wish to commend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary on the successful conclusion of these sugar arrangements, the account of the matter that he has given today is manifestly unfair in relation to the actions of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon). In making that commendation, therefore, I regret that it is necessary to add that comment. However, may I ask him whether, in dealing with the price, the right hon. Gentleman and the Minister of Agriculture will maintain carefully in their minds the importance of building security into this agreement? Price is one factor. Security is another. The maintenance of our refining industry depends on the security of supplies. There are precarious issues in this matter, and if the price is reasonable at the time it may nevertheless not afford the security that we need of assured supplies.
Mr. Callaghan: I quite accept the last part of the right hon. Gentleman's question. As regards the first part of it, because I thought that someone would want to continue this argument I took the precaution of reading the exchanges in this House on 17th May 1971. I do not think that I can do better than read what my right hon. Friend who is now Chancellor of the Exchequer said about the right hon. and learned Member for Hexham at the time:
"…many of us feel that he might have got an acceptable and bankable agreement on sugar if he had stuck to the line that he took on Tuesday night, when he talked of figures and quantities, instead of collapsing like a pricked balloon…".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th May 1971; Vol. 817, c. 887.]
The right hon. and learned Member for Hexham got the assurance. Yesterday, we had to deal with the figures and quantities. That is the difference.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. T must ask for the help of the House. Today has been allotted to a debate on the Budget. I have a list of more than 30 right hon. and hon. Members who wish to speak in

415
that debate. We have another long statement to come. I can call only one or two other hon. Members on this matter.
Mr. Spearing: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a great deal of relief in cane-refining circles, especially among employees, but only half-relief because of the matter of price to which my right hon. Firend has alluded? Is he aware also that 1·4 million tons will not be sufficient to maintain our cane-refining capacity? Will my right hon. Friend tell the House a little more about the price? Draft Regulation 2717 refers to a price being geared in some way to the European intervention price. Was that discussed in my right hon. Friend's negotiations, or has it been left to the Minister of Agriculture?
Mr. Callaghan: It was present in the minds of everyone yesterday that the price would be closely related to the Community's internal sugar regime. It was also argued successfully that the actual price to be paid would probably have to be above the guaranteed price in conditions of world shortage. But what will be discussed by my right hon. Friend—and I cannot go further than this today—is the offer that is to be made to those countries which will produce from them a response ensuring 1·4 million tons of sugar. That is the point still left for decision, and it is a commercial matter.
As regards employment prospects in the refineries, what my hon. Friend can say to workers in his constituency and elsewhere is that there is now at least a guarantee of 1·4 million tons of sugar, most of which will accord with normal patterns of trade. That means that it will come here for a period of several years. Up until yesterday there was no assurance of that.
Mr. Rippon: The right hon. Gentleman referred to the history of this matter. If he looks at the record, he will see that we did not put a figure into the treaty. It may be that we shall want to put up the figure at some time. However, 1·4 million tons was the figure always given in this House, by which we always stood. It is very fortunate that the right hon. Gentleman does not have to renegotiate our treaty, because it was extremely well drafted.
416
Will the right hon. Gentleman answer the two specific points that I put to him? Will he confirm that our food prices today are lower as a result of our membership of the Community than they would otherwise be, as the Minister of State said last week? Secondly, will he confirm that at present we are net beneficiaries under the budget?
Mr. Callaghan: That has nothing to do with my statement today. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman puts down specific Questions on these matters of fact, I shall give him an answer.

SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS
The Secretary of State for Social Services (Mrs. Barbara Castle): I will, with permission, Mr. Speaker, make a statement about increases in social security benefits. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday announced the main features.
The increases in benefit will take effect in the week beginning 7th April 1975. Thus, in view of the recent rapid inflation, benefits are to be increased eight and a half months after the previous general uprating in July of this year. My right hon. Friend went further and made it clear that the Government are planning another increase to take effect in December 1975 but that it is our intention to return to an annual cycle of upratings as inflation is brought under control.
We are committed to increasing the level of pensions and other long-term benefits in line with the movement in national average earnings, unless the movement in prices would be more advantageous for those concerned. The latest known movement in earnings over a period of nine months—roughly the length of time between the upratings last July and next April—is about 15½ per cent. Over the same period prices rose by just over 12½, per cent. We are increasing pensions and other long-term benefits by about 15½ per cent. before rounding.
The standard rate of retirement pension, together with invalidity pension and widows' pension, will go up in April by £1·60 to £11·60 a week. Married couples will get an increase of £2·50, bringing their joint pensions up to £18·50 a week at the standard rate. Younger widows,

417
and pensioners on reduced rate pensions, will get proportionate increases. Old persons' pensions, which are payable to those over the age of 80 who do not get a normal national insurance pension, will go up from £3·70 to £4·30 for wives and from £6 to £6·90 for others.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment has authorised me to say that he proposes, after consulting his advisory committee, to make corresponding increases in the needs allowance for rent and rate rebates and rent allowances. As in the last uprating, therefore, increases in social security benefits will not generally have the effect of reducing housing benefits. Similarly, supplementary benefits will be kept in line. And my right hon. Friend the Chancellor yesterday announced new and improved tax allowances for all elderly people over 65.
Short-term national insurance benefits for unemployment and sickness will be increased by £1·20 for a single person and £2 for a married couple, making the single person's rate £9·80 and the married couple's rate £15·90 a week. These are increases of about 14 per cent. Maternity allowance and injury benefit will go up by the same amounts. I should remind the House that many short-term beneficiaries get an earnings-related supplement on top of their flat-rate benefits. The higher rate of attendance allowance will go up from £8 to £9·20 and the lower rate from £5·35 to £6·20.
The 100 per cent. war and industrial injuries disablement pensions will go up from £16·40 to £19. The standard rate of war widow's pension will be increased from £13 to £15 and the industrial injuries widow's pension from £10·55 to £12·15.
I turn now to support for families. My right hon. Friend has announced that we propose to raise family allowances for the first time since they were increased by a Labour Government in 1968. The increases in family allowances—which will he subject to normal tax only—will also take effect in the week beginning 7th April. We propose to end the distinction between second and subsequent children, and the rate will become £1·50 for all qualified children.
418
The Government are committed to extend the family allowance to the first child under their child allowance scheme, and I shall be making a statement on the timing and other details of this scheme in due course. In the meantime, we are doubling the earnings disregard for supplementary benefit which is of such importance for one-parent families.
Increases in long-term benefits in respect of children will go up to the level of £5·65 for each child, inclusive of family allowances—at their new levels—where these are payable. Short-term benefits will be increased to £3·10 in respect of each child, inclusive of family allowances where payable. These rates for children do, of course, apply also to first children.
I shall be bringing before the House shortly proposals for increasing in 1975 the prescribed amounts for family income supplement.
As I have said, the increases in the main scale rates of supplementary benefit will be the same as the increases in the corresponding national insurance benefits; and the increases will come into force at the same time. Thus, married supplementary pensioners, and other couples who qualify for the long-term supplementary benefit rates, will get the £2·50 increase proposed for retirement and invalidity pensioners. If they live alone, supplementary pensioners, and other supplementary beneficiaries who qualify for the long-term rate, will get the increase of £1·60 proposed for national insurance long-term benefits. A supplementary pensioner living alone will therefore become entitled to have his income brought up to at least £12 a week, and a married couple receiving supplementary pension to at least £18·85 a week, plus rent and rates in each case.
The supplementary benefit ordinary rates, which are payable to persons who are neither of pensionable age nor qualify for the long-term rates, will go up in line with the increases in the short-term national insurance benefits, by £2 for a married couple and £1·20 for a person living alone.
The cost of all these increases in social security benefit in Great Britain will be about £1,125 million in a full year, of

419
which £207 million is for family allowances. A sum of £810 million will fall on the National Insurance Fund. As my right hon. Friend explained in his Budget Statement yesterday, the inherent buoyancy of revenue from fully earnings-related national insurance contributions is expected to be sufficient to cover this additional fund expenditure. This means no further change in the rates of national insurance contributions to apply from April 1975 contained in the Social Security Amendment Bill which is now before the House.
For the convenience of the House I am circulating details of the new rates of benefits in the OFFICIAL REPORT. These, with copies of my statement, are available in the Vote Office. The uprating Bill, accompanied by the Government Actuary's report, is being published today. The Bill will provide for the increases in benefits under the national insurance, industrial injuries and family allowances schemes. The increases in the supplementary benefit scale rates will be made by regulations which will be brought before Parliament in due course; the increases in benefits under the war pensions scheme will be made through instruments under the Royal Prerogative.
The Bill also includes two other provisions which I am sure will be welcomed on both sides of the House. First, it will provide the legislative framework for two of the proposals—a new non-contributory invalidity pension and a new invalid care allowance—contained in my report on "Social Security Provision for Chronically Sick and Disabled People".
Secondly, the Bill will provide for substantial improvements in supplementary benefit disregards, which it is our intention to bring into effect as soon as operationally possible after the main uprating. The amount of savings which will be completely ignored in calculating benefits will be increased from the present band of £300 to £800 to a flat £1,200. The disregards of income will be increased and simplified and, in particular, the doubling of the earnings disregards to which I have already referred will enable a lone parent to earn up to £4 a week without benefit being affected. This is a positive step towards implementing one of the important recommendations contained in the report of the Finer Committee.
420
There is one other matter, relating to the disabled, which I ought to mention. I recognise that the increase in value added tax on petrol announced yesterday by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will cause some difficulty for disabled drivers. I am considering this problem urgently with my right hon. Friend and with my hon. Friend the Minister with responsibility for the disabled.
These various increases and improvements make clear the Government's determination to protect the interests of pensioners and other social security beneficiaries, and to afford them the social justice to which we are deeply committed.
Sir G. Howe: The right hon. Lady will not expect me to comment in detail on a very long statement. Will she accept that my right hon. and hon. Friends and I welcome her conversion to the need for more frequent upratings of benefits while inflation persists at its present rate, and in particular her recognition of the fact that prices have increased in the past nine months at the rate of 12½ per cent. and not at an annual rate of 8·4 per cent., as the Chancellor said? Will she recognise that we also welcome the improvement in disregards which she has announced? Can she say whether she would propose to disregard altogether the earnings by teenage children in families dependent on supplementary benefit?
Can she also tell us by how much and when the Government propose, as foreshadowed by her right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education, to increase the charges for school meals? Can she say, when that takes place, what will be the net value of the increased family allowances for families paying the standard rate of income tax? Can she further say why in the light of the intention of the Chancellor, well understood, to raise energy prices as soon as possible, she proposes no increase in heating allowances? Can she try to justify the Government's intention to reintroduce the quite unjustified increases in taxation on savings income, even of pensioners who can hardly be regarded as well off, at a level of £30 a week?
Mrs. Castle: The right hon. and learned Gentleman, however hard he tries, will not be able to dredge any credit for our performance out of his party's unfulfilled

421
promises. He will be well aware that when we took over in March we discovered no evidence of any intention or preparation by the former Tory Government to introduce any six-monthly reviews. Indeed, the speed with which we proceeded to introduce our uprating at the end of a period of nine months led to intense difficulties with our own staff because the previous administration had cut their numbers rather than expanded them to prepare for any more frequent reviews.
May I point out to the right hon. and learned Gentleman that from when the previous Labour Government took office in March 1974 until the next uprating, pensions will have been increased by almost 50 per cent.—and that is in a period of just over a year. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman believes that the House will accept that he would have done any better, then he is living in a fool's paradise. He will know that school meals are a matter not for me but for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education. My right hon. Friend will be considering the point to which reference has been made.
Turning now to the question about heating allowances, the House will know that the Supplementary Benefits Commission increased the figures for heating additions by one-third in July this year as part of the uprating introduced then. Since then it has reviewed the criteria for heating allowances and has this month circulated full details in a new leaflet, a copy of which I shall make available in the Library, if it is not already there. I say seriously to the House that I believe that these new criteria can lead to a considerable extension of the number of those qualifying for heating additions. I ask all hon. Members to examine these new criteria closely and to ensure that their constituents get the benefit of them. The Supplementary Benefits Commission will, of course, be keeping the whole heating position under review.
Mr. George Cunningham: Will my right hon. Friend accept that the admirable package announced today and yesterday has one severe flaw? I refer to the continuation of the earnings rule in relation to the normal retirement pensioner. Is my right hon. Friend aware that it will seem extremely wrong for the Chancellor to use £280 million yesterday
422
to reduce the tax incidence on people over the age of 65 when half of that money could have been used completely to abolish the earnings rule for retirement pensioners? Can she offer any hope that the earnings rule can be abolished in the near future?
Mrs. Castle: As my hon. Friend knows, we have relaxed it substantially in the last uprating. My hon. Friend also knows that it would cost £160 million completely to abolish it. It is a moot point whether, given a choice, old-age pensioners would have made the choice he has mentioned ill contrast to that offered to them by the Chancellor. It remains our policy to keep this under review. We cannot give a further relexation this round, but we are intending to relax the rule increasingly as resources allow.
Mr. Wood: Before the right hon. Lady gets too excited on the subject of uprating, may I ask whether she can confirm that review and uprating will continue twice a year in 1976 if prices are still rising considerably at that time? Can she also say whether the 12½ per cent. increase in prices since the last review—compared with the 14 per cent. to 15½ per cent. increase in benefits—applies to the situation now or does it take into account a further rise before the up-rating takes place in April?
Mrs. Castle: During the election we told pensioners quite clearly that our policy was to uprate pensions as frequently as necessary. We did not commit ourselves as a matter of philosophy to six-monthly reviews. It will be the hope of the whole House that the country at some time in the future will be able to bring this exceptional inflation under control. We have said that we shall have two uprating in 1975 because of the exceptional conditions but that we shall then move to annual reviews in so far as inflation has been brought under control. That is a clear, fair and proper statement of what the policy should be.
As to the rise in prices, the position today is that the value of the increase that came into operation in July is still 12·4 per cent. for a single pensioner and 11.5 per cent. for a married couple, taking the latest price figures available, those for September this year. It would obviously be wrong and impossible for me to attempt to forecast what will be the

423
movement in prices up to the period ending in April next year.
Mr. Frank Allaun: I am a growing admirer of my right hon. Friend. She is doing very well and she must have fought hard for her corner in the Cabinet. May I put a question to her? Would it not have been fairer, instead of reducing the claw-back, to grant the family allowance to the first child earlier than she intends?
Mrs. Castle: There is no relation between the Government's decision not to claw back the family allowance increase and the inability to announce now the extension of family allowance to the first child. The first decision rests on its own merits. To have clawed back this family allowance increase, as my right hon. Friend explained yesterday, would have meant that a number of families would have been worse off. A number of quite humble families would have been brought into the tax range when otherwise that would not have happened. Therefore, I think that it was entirely right that we should say that this increase should be subject to ordinary tax. This problem will not arise when we get our child allowance scheme into operation, because that will involve a merging of the child tax allowance and the family allowance in one comprehensive child allowance. But I cannot say any more at this stage as to when we can introduce this scheme. I have said that I shall be making in due course an announcement about the timing and other details of the extension of family allowances to the first child—a cause which is as close to my heart as it is to that of my hon. Friend.
Mr. MeCrindle: May I ask about the situation which exists until such time as the Government feel able to move to the situation in which family allowance will be paid for the first child? Will the right hon. Lady say whether any consideration was given in the recent review to the use of family income supplement as a means of bridging the gap between the present situation and the desirable situation to which she has just referred?
Mrs. Castle: It is our desire to get rid of family income supplement as soon as possible. It is an inadequate and counter-productive means-tested scheme. It was the Opposition's alternative, when
424
they were in Government, to keeping their election promise to raise family allowances. They never kept that promise. Instead, they gave us a scheme which contained so many disincentives and such a poverty trap that its take-up is only 50 per cent. Clearly, I shall be completely reviewing family income supplement in connection with this uprating. To us it must remain as an interim palliative until we can get our proper child allowances scheme into operation. I have already said, in the statement that I have just made, that I shall be making a statement shortly about the extension of this uprating to FIS.
Mr. Arthur Lewis: May I ask my right hon. Friend why she has been unable to make an announcement about a petrol allowance for the disabled? Surely she must have known about the matter. Will she give an assurance that when this allowance is introduced it will be retrospective? Will she bear this matter in mind, because she knows, as does everyone else, that the cost of petrol is likely to rise to £1 a gallon by the end of the year? That is a fact. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps I should say that everyone knows that that cost will go down. Nevertheless, the physically disabled are in great difficulty. Can my right hon. Friend, here and now, give an assurance that those who receive this allowance will have it retrospectively and that by next week she will be able to announce that this money will be paid?
Finally, I wish that the Chancellor had given way to me yesterday. I should not then have had to telephone about this matter this morning or to have asked this question.
Mrs. Castle: I assure my hon. Friend that the Chancellor keeps his Budget secrets very close to his chest. Therefore, it has been a question of taking this on board only in the last few hours. We do have a little time. The increases do not come into effect until next Monday. I assure my hon. Friend that I have had a sympathetic response at once from the Chancellor. We are considering urgently the details of what should be done about this problem.
Mr. Ridsdale: I welcome the increases proposed by the right hon. Lady. However, is she aware of the grave difficulties facing retirement pensioners in rural

425
areas? They feel this difficulty particularly when they see that concessionary fares are given in London but not in rural areas because local councils cannot afford to do it. What will the Government do about this matter?
Mrs. Castle: The answer lies with the local authorities. The hon. Gentleman says that the rural authorities cannot afford these concessionary fares, but all that I can say is that many poor industrial areas, under Labour local authorities, have managed to find the money.
Mr. Urwin: I join in expressing my personal admiration for my right hon. Friend's proposals, which I am sure will be warmly welcomed throughout the country. In pursuance of the implementation of the pledge firmly to link retire

MAIN INCREASED NATIONAL INSURANCE BENEFIT RATES

Proposed Weekly Rate

Existing Rate

£

£

Standard rate of invalidity, widow's and retirement* pensions and widowed mother's allowance

11·60

10·00

Increase for wife or other adult dependant

6·90

6·00

Standard rates of unemployment and sickness benefits:

Higher rate

9·80

8·60

Increase for wife or other adult dependant

6·10

5·30

Lower rate

6·90

6·05

Widow's allowance (first 26 weeks of widowhood)

16·20

14·00

Maternity allowance

9·80

8·60

Invalidity allowance payable with invalidity pension, when incapacity began before age:

35

2·40

2·05

45

1·50

1·30

60 for men or 55 for women

0·75

0·65

Attendance allowance:

Higher rate

9·20

8·00

Lower rate

6·20

5·35

Pensions for old people (over the age of 80):

Higher rate

6·90

6·00

Lower rate

4·30

3·70

Guardian's allowance

5·65

4·90

Child's special allowance and increases for children of widows, invalidity and retirement pensioners:

First child

5·65

4·90

Second child†

4·15

4·00

Any other child†

4·15

3·90

Increases for children of all other beneficiaries:

First child

3·10

2·70

Second child†

1·60

1·80

Any other child†

1·60

1·70

* An age addition of 25p is payable to retirement pensioners who are aged 80 or over.

† Family allowances bring the total payments up to the amount payable for the first child.

ment pensions with industrial wages in particular, will my right hon. Friend tell the House what percentage of industrial wages she is aiming to achieve concerning retirement pensions?
Mrs. Castle: The current policy of the Government at its regular upratings is to uprate in line with the movements which have taken place in average earnings, where these are more favourable to the pensioner. As the figures I have given in my statement show, these are certainly more favourable to the pensioner at present.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. We must move on towards the Budget debate.
Following is the information:

MAIN INCREASED INDUSTRIAL INJURIES BENEFIT RATES

Proposed Weekly Rate

Existing Rate

£

£

Injury benefit*†

…

…

12·55

11·35

Disablement benefit (100 per cent, assessment)*

…

…

19·00

16·40

Unemployability supplement‡

…

…

11·60

10·00

Special hardship allowance (maximum)

…

…

7·60

6·56

Constant attendance allowance (normal maximum)

…

…

7·60

6·60

Exceptionally severe disablement allowance

…

…

7·60

6·60

Industrial death benefit:

Widow's pension during first 26 weeks of widowhood

…

16·20

14·00

Widow's pension now payable at £10·55 rate

…

…

12·15

10·55

Widow's pension now payable at £3·00 rate

…

…

3·48

3·00

* Increases will also be made in the juvenile rates.

† Increases for adult dependants and children will be the same as those for unemployment and sickness benefit—see National Insurance table.

‡ Invalidity allowances and increases for adult dependants and children will be the same as those payable with invalidity pensions—see National Insurance table.

MAIN INCREASED WAR PENSION RATES

All ranks receive the same increases, officers' rates being expressed in pounds per annum.

PART I: DISABLEMENT BENEFITS

Proposed Weekly Rate

Existing Rate

£

£

Disablement pension for private at 100 per cent, rate

…

…

19·00

16·50

Unemployability allowances*:

Personal allowance

…

…

12·40

10·75

Increase for wife or adult dependant

…

…

6·90

6·00

Comforts allowance:

Higher rate

…

…

3·20

2·80

Lower rate

…

…

1·60

1·40

Allowance for lower standard of occupation (maximum)

7·60

6·56

Constant attendance allowance:

Special maximun

…

…

15·20

13·20

Special intermediate

…

…

11·40

9·90

Normal maximum

…

…

7·60

6·60

Half and quarter day

…

…

3·80

3·30

Age allowance with assessments of:

40 and 50 per cent.

…

…

1·40

1·20

60 and 70 per cent.

…

…

2·10

1·80

80 and 90 per cent.

…

…

3·00

2·60

100 per cent.

…

…

4·20

3·60

Exceptionally severe disablement allowance

…

…

7·60

6·60

Severe disablement occupational allowance

…

…

3·80

3·30

Proposed Annual Rate

Existing Annual Rate

£

£

Clothing allowance:

High

…

…

…

…

…

…

…

…

29·00

26·00

Intermediate

…

…

…

…

…

…

…

19·00

17·00

Low

…

…

…

…

…

…

…

…

10·00

* Invalidity allowances and increases for adult dependants and children will be the same as those payable with invalidity pensions—see National Insurance table.

PART II: DEATH BENEFITS

Proposed Weekly Rate

Existing Rate

£

£

Widow's pension—private's widow:

Standard rate

…

…

15·00

13·00

Childless widow under 40

…

…

3·48

3·00

Rent allowance

…

…

5·80

5·00

Age allowance for elderly widows:

Between age 65 and 70

…

…

1·50

1·30

Over age 70

…

…

3·00

2·60

Widower's pension

…

…

15·00

13·00

Widow's children:

Eldest child

…

…

5·85

5·10

Other children with family allowance

…

…

4·85

4·60

Other children without family allowances

…

…

5·70

4·95

Motherless and fatherless children aged:

Under 15 Eldest child or other children with no family

5·85

5·10

Over 15 allowances

…

…

7·35

6·60

Under 15 Other children with family allowances

…

…

4·85

4·60

Over 15

…

…

6·35

6·10

Adult orphans

…

…

11·60

10·00

MAIN INCREASED SUPPLEMENTARY BENEFIT RATES

Proposed Ordinary Weekly Rate

Proposed Long-Term Weekly Rate*

Existing Ordinary Rate

Existing Long-Term Rate*

£

£

£

£

Ordinary scale:

Husband and wife

…

15·65

18·85

13·65

16·35

Person living alone

…

9·60

12·00

8·40

10·40

Any other person aged:

Not less than 18

…

7·65

9·65

6·70

8·40

Less than 18 but not less than 16

…

5·90

—

5·15

—

Less than 16 but not less than 13

…

4·95

—

4·35

—

Less than 13 but not less than 11

…

4·05

—

3·55

—

Less than 11 but not less than 5

…

3·30

—

2·90

—

Less than 5

…

2·75

—

2·40

—

Blind scale:

Husband and wife:

If one of them is blind

…

16·90

20·10

14·90

17·60

If both of them are blind

…

17·70

20·90

15·70

18·40

Any other blind person aged:

Not less than 18

…

10·85

13·25

9·65

11·65

Less than 18 but not less than 16

…

6·80

—

6·05

—

Less than 16 but not less than 13

…

4·95

—

4·35

—

Less than 13 but not less than 11

…

4·05

—

3·55

—

Less than 11 but not less than 5

…

3·30

—

2·90

—

Less than 5

…

2·75

—

2·40

—

Proposed Weekly Rate

Existing Weekly Rate

£

£

Non-householder rent allowance

…

…

…

…

…

0·95

0·90

Attendance requirements:

Higher rate

…

…

…

…

…

…

9·20

8·00

Lower rate

…

…

…

…

…

…

6·20

5·35

* Where the claimant or a dependant is aged 80 or over a further 25p is added to these long-term rates.

SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS

  BALLOT FOR NOTICES OF MOTIONS FOR FRIDAY, 29th NOVEMBER
  Members successful in the Ballot were:

  Mr. Michael Hamilton.

  Mrs. Helene Hayman.

  Mr. Robin Corbett.

  BILL PRESENTED
    SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS
    Mrs. Secretary Castle, supported by Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Secretary Foot, Mr. Secretary Ross, Mr. Secretary John Morris, Mr. Secretary Rees, Mr. Brian O'Malley, Mr. Alfred Morris and Mr. Alec Jones, presented a Bill to make further provision with respect to basic scheme benefits and benefits in respect of industrial injuries and diseases; to increase family allowances; to amend Parts I and III of Schedule 2 to the Supplementary Benefit Act 1966; and for purposes connected with those matters: And the same was read the First time and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 9.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY
  WAYS AND MEANS
  Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [12th November],

  CAPITAL TRANSFER TAX
  That a tax may be imposed on the value transferred by certain dispositions made on or after 26th March 1974 and on the value treated on death and in certain other circumstances as so transferred.
  Question again proposed.

  BUDGET RESOLUTIONS AND ECONOMIC SITUATION
  4.16 p.m.
  Mr. Robert Can: May I, first, in the traditional but none the less sincere way, add my congratulations to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on a further Budget speech. He knows that I wished that he had not been on the Government side of the House to deliver it but, as he was, I warmly congratulate him on the manner in which he did it—although, equally, I know that it will be no surprise to him to find that I am not altogether satisfied with the substance of what was delivered.
  I suppose that whatever else one may say about the Chancellor's characteristics, one could hardly claim—I do not know whether he would claim it for himself—that he is a steady driver of the economy. He has had three Budgets in just under eight months. In March he greatly increased the burden of value added tax. In July he reduced it. Yesterday he increased it again. In March he said that he must take away a lot of industry's cash. In November he gives it back again. In March he announced the tightening of the grip of price control. In November he relaxes it. In March the Government's borrowing requirement must be cut. This is of great urgency. In November it is more than doubled.
  Whatever else the Chancellor is, he is certainly a zig-zag Chancellor. Some people may call this fine tuning of the economy. Others, less charitable, might suspect him of a little drunken driving.

  433
  This latest Budget is certainly better than the first one in March, but it is still not right and it still fails to fight inflation as it ought to be fought, as public enemy No. 1, or to protect jobs as it ought to protect jobs for the future. Indeed, running through the Chancellor's speech and the proposals there still seems to be a dangerous belief that unemployment and inflation are separate problems. They are not. As the Prime Minister said, in a rare flash of truth, in a speech at Huyton on 19th September:
  "They are one and the same problem."
  Those were the Prime Minister's words.
  It may have been true a few years ago, when inflation was running at a much lower rate than it is today, that we could then choose between having somewhat fuller employment and slightly higher inflation, on the one hand, somewhat more unemployment and slightly lower inflation, on the other. However, that choice is not open to us today. At its present high and intolerable rate, inflation itself, in our view, presents the most dangerous threat to full employment.
  Do not let any of us under-estimaete how grave this threat of heavy unemployment during the next few years has become. We are on a tightrope for the next few years. If we fail to get on top of inflation, we fall off the tightrope on one side, suffering economic collapse and, as a result, unemployment on the most massive scale and of a kind most difficult to cure. If, on the other hand, we fall off the tightrope on the other side by trying to put the brakes on inflation in too crude and sudden a manner, we also will get a rapid rise of unemployment to very serious levels.
  So what is needed is a firm, steady, stable, programme—I emphasise the need now for stability—for the next three years which is designed to move us away from the danger in progressive but gradual steps, using simultaneously all the anti-inflationary weapons in our armoury in moderation and none of them to extreme.
  I want to outline what I believe are the main elements in such a programme and where I think the Chancellor meets the needs and where I think he fails. First, I must make a brief comment on the way the Chancellor dealt with inflation yesterday. As inflation is public enemy No. 1, and as inflation and unemployment are,
  434
  as the Prime Minister has admitted, one and the same problem, it was a strange and serious omission for the Chancellor not to give any quantitative estimate yesterday about the rate of inflation which he expects his policies to produce next year. All he said was this:
  "If settlements can be confined to what is needed to cover the increase in the cost of living, we can reasonably expect to see a decrease in the rate of inflation in the coming year."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th November 1974; Vol. 881, c. 249.]
  The question is: bow much of a decrease? The Chancellor was not shy in the election campaign. On 23rd September he announced with great confidence that inflation was currently running at 8·4 per cent. I could not help wondering at the time whether the right hon. Gentleman had not made one of the statistical malaprops for which he is famous and really meant 18·4 per cent., but it was clearly 8·4 per cent. at which he said inflation was running. The day after, on 24th September, he said in a speech at Witham:
  "We can get inflation down close to 10 per cent. by the end of next year if the social contract is maintained."
  What does Mr. 8·4 per cent. say now'? What is the current rate of inflation? The Chancellor did not tell us yesterday. Is it still 8·4 per cent., or is it higher, and, if so, what? If it is more, why? What is more important, in view of the right hon. Gentleman's talk about the long-term strategy and the purpose of his Budget, whatever it is now, what is the Chancellor's forecast for the rate of inflation by the end of 1975 if, as he put it yesterday, pay settlements can be confined to what is needed to cover the cost of living? Is it still close to the 10 per cent. which he forecast in the election campaign, or is it higher, or is it lower? What will the rate of inflation be by the end of next year if pay settlements exceed what is needed to cover the cost of living by various amounts?
  How can unions, employers, and the people generally know what is expected of them unless they are given targets and unless they understand what they have to do themselves if those targets are to be achieved? As I say, the Chancellor was not shy in spraying about these forecasts and targets during the election campaign. Let us have them now so that as the months go by not only we in the

  435
  House but all the people in the county can know whether they are keeping on course towards the targets that he is setting.
  That is why I say to the Chancellor that these questions really must be answered. I suggest to him that it is important not only for us at home that they be answered. It is also just as important, if we are to maintain international confidence, for us to be seen to be grappling effectively and progressively with our inflationary problem.
  Coming back now to the strategy and programme for the next three to four years, I certainly support some of the main statements of intent that the Chancellor made yesterday—for example, the statement that we must now divert resources for consumption to investment and export, and the statement that we must move away from general subsidies towards prices based on true costs.
  It seemed to me to be just as well for the Chancellor and his colleagues that we on this side do support those objectives, otherwise he would be in pretty grave trouble. As I shall show in more detail in a few moments, however, I do not believe that he has done the right things, or at any rate not enough of the right things, to achieve those objectives, although I support the objectives themselves.
  I also agree with the Chancellor about the complexity and danger of the economic problems facing not just Britain but the whole world and agree with him that if, through lack of effective international action, the world fell into a slump, the consequences for Britain would be very serious no matter what any British Chancellor tried to do about it. I therefore wish the Chancellor well and assure him of our support in seeking effective international co-operation through the International Monetary Fund and other channels.
  However, we must concentrate above all on putting our own house in order here in Britain. This is essential if we are to take advantage of the opportunities if world economic affairs go well and it is essential if we are to be able to defend ourselves as best we can if unfortunately they go badly.
  436
  Although the technical complexities are great, I think that it is clear that beneath the technical complexities the cause of Britain's own crisis is essentially pretty simple. It is, put in oversimplified but I believe basically true terms, that we are living beyond our means. We have got to stop doing so now, however hard that may be. Not of course all at once in a single year but over the next three or four years, in clear, measurable, progressive steps we have got to match our living to our means.
  When I talk about our means I include in our means, as any responsible person or company or country does, a reasonably responsible use of our capacity to borrow. However, it is a matter of degree, and basically we have got to learn to live within our means. If we do not, we shall not beat inflation and we shall not avoid heavy and prolonged unemployment. We have got to set about this programme straight away.
  If we are to tackle this essential problem of not living within our means, we have to attack both sides of it. We must set about increasing our means for the future. That is a positive, hopeful side of our task. At the same time, we have meanwhile to cut back our expectations and our present standards so as to live within whatever our means may be from year to year. That is the hard, the difficult, the unpopular part of our task which will require sacrifice, restraint and patience.
  It seems to me that there are three essential elements in the necessary programme for the next few years. First, we must have a boost to cash and confidence in industry and to our farmers in order to stimulate home food production. We shall be debating agriculture next week and so I shall concentrate today on industry, as indeed the Chancellor did yesterday.
  The only source of new wealth in this country, the only way of increasing our means for the future, is to increase the production and efficiency of our factories. That means above all, as the right hon. Gentleman said yesterday, increasing the quantity and quality of investment in new machinery and factories. This is where, as the right hon. Gentleman also said yesterday, we have been falling behind other countries. It is also the area in

  437
  which the Chancellor and the Government have done terrible damage in the last eight months in destroying industry's cash and confidence.
  The Chancellor has at least admitted his previous error and has now gone to some extent into reverse. But he still seems to treat these problems of industry with a certain amount of mirth and levity. I remember that, during the spring, the Government were assuring us that the Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection were looking at the financial situation of industry and that there was nothing to worry about. They were refusing to see the evidence before their eyes—they would not listen, not just to what we said or the CBI said but to what an increasing number of independent commentators of every kind were saying.
  This attitude persisted throughout the whole of the summer, and as a result we have the present situation. Damage has been done which in many ways is irreversible. Certainly, had action been taken sooner, it would have had a much better chance of being really effective than it has now. We are thankful for what the right hon. Gentleman did yesterday, although we believe that he has not done enough in the right way.
  I believe that the right hon. Gentleman's present package, if it had been introduced last March, might have prevented the present industrial crisis from arising. But the package is too little and too late either to mend the damage of the last eight months or to put industry on the road to real recovery. The right hon. Gentleman has put industry in what I might describe as an economic kidney machine and has therefore, he hopes, saved its life for this winter and next year. But all that he has done is to create a continuing kidney machine economy. Industry is not cured and will have to come back for repeated help and treatment, not because its disease is incurable but because the Chancellor is withholding the necessary remedies.
  What does industry need? First, there is need for the life-saving operation. This, on the whole, it has been given, although we still believe that the advance corporation tax surcharge should and could have been abolished. The Chancellor's point about not doing this because these were the companies which paid dividends and
  438
  therefore were in a strong position does not bear examination. Although, naturally, the weak companies—weak because of short-term difficulties and not because of long-term lack of efficiency or viability—may need the help most urgently, if we do not also give help to those which are a little stronger, despite the difficulties, we shall be greatly weakening our effort for the future. The ACT surcharge should have been abolished in this life-saving operation.
  The second need of industry is a medium-term source of finance to bridge the gap between the present stage and the time when we have restored our level of real profitability with confidence such that industry can once again raise capital for new investment in the normal way. We welcome the initiative of the private sector in developing the FFI into a stronger and more effective instrument, but I must warn that this instrument will be stillborn and ineffective unless the third need is also met.
  The third need of industry, and one which is absolutely essential beyond the immediate rescue period, is that industry must be put on the basis once again where it is allowed, first to make and then keep, an adequate level of profit in order to provide sufficient retention for reinvestment, and also to enable industry to be able to attract new money for investment in the future in relation to current long-term interest levels, whatever they may be. What we mean by "adequate profit" cannot be thought of out of relation to whatever may be the going long-term interest rates if money is to be attracted into industry for future investment.
  The fourth need is to reactivate the capital markets, which requires the full restoration of profitability and also the deliberate encouragement of saving in every way possible.
  It is in not meeting these third and fourth needs that the right hon. Gentleman has failed. He has failed to meet the need to reactivate the capital markets and the need to put industry back on an adequate level of profitability in the longer run. The revision of the Price Code does not provide a real profit incentive for the future. It applies for one year and there is no basis on which firms can plan ahead with confidence. It is

  439
  still fiendishly complicated in its application, and it is deficient in various important details, a point upon which we shall enlarge later.
  There is no real regime for industry for adequate profitability in the long run, and without that there will not be the reactivation of investment plans or of the capital markets. The Chancellor has not reduced the taxation of industry to allow it to keep more profit. He has merely deferred it by means of a stock depreciation formula. Although this may be important as part of a life saving rescue operation, it is not what is needed for the longer term re-establishment of profitability and confidence.
  This formula will, I suspect, be found by industry to be very complicated and not immediately certain in its effect. Therefore, it will not restore confidence in the longer term, a process which is necessary for making future investment plans. Beyond one year, the position is wholly uncertain and—what is very serious—even for this one year the Chancellor has limited the benefit to incorporated enterprises with stocks of more than £25,000. This excludes from the benefit this coming year vast numbers of small businesses and, of course, most farms. This is a deplorable and very serious omission and is not made good by the Chancellor talking as he did about a company being able to go along to sources of finance and credit with this kind of bankable assurance.
  He has done nothing to reactivate the capital markets. He has not provided for long-term profitability at a level commensurate with long-term interests rates. The action he has taken has been to discourage rather than to encourage savings by introducing a wholly new capital tax on top of all the other taxes already there, and by increasing income tax on savings income.
  These are the main reasons why the right hon. Gentleman is failing to meet the first essential element in the fight for recovery. He has not done enough of the right things to create the vigorous, alert, and profitable private sector which the Government claim to be an essential part of their policy. They are still not doing the right things to implement that policy.
  The second essential element in the programme of recovery is severe restraint
  440
  in public spending and public borrowing, in the money supply and in pay increases as well as in price increases. This, again, is just as important to the maintenance of international confidence as it is to the control of our own inflation here. The Government make obeisance to these objectives but do not achieve them.
  First, in this connection, I turn to public spending—by which I mean, as the right hon. Gentleman did yesterday, the total spending by both central and local government. In our view, there should be no real increase in demand terms in public spending over the next year or two. That is what we made clear in the election campaign. We know that this is very tough, but we believe that it is the only realistic view if we are to win the battle against inflation.
  As we continually said during the election, if real increases are to be made in some areas as they should be, they must be covered by savings elsewhere. That will mean postponement of a most painful kind of many things we genuinely and urgently need. But postponement for a few years with inflation under control is better than never having them at all, which is their likely fate if we do not control inflation.
  The Chancellor takes a more relaxed view. He has said that we can afford a real increase in public spending in demand terms of 2 ¾ per cent. a year. We do not think so. That is certainly greater than the real increase in national income which we can expect for some time to come. What is the increase to be used for? The Chancellor was very coy about both the cutbacks which he will impose in the expectations and about what this 2 ¾ per cent. will be used for. Will it be used for improving services such as schools and hospitals and all these things which we need and want, or will it be taken up by the annual cost of nationalisation?
  Even an increase limited to 2 ¾ per cent. a year will mean a painful cutting back of our expenditure. Where will these cut-backs occur? The Chancellor keeps that a secret, but he must know what the answer is and he should tell us. Is he afraid to face the country all at once with the sacrifices being demanded or is it just that he is afraid of his own Left wing.
  The same applies to the proposed increases in the prices of electricity, coal,

  441
  gas and fares. In his March Budget the right hon. Gentleman told us at least in round terms what the increases would be and when. Why not now? Surely he must know. Surely he cannot be as ignorant about all the other things as he was about the effect of his proposals on the price of a gallon of petrol.
  Surely—and this is not just a debating point—he should give the people of this country the truth at least about the broad areas and the magnitude of the cut-backs in the expected increase of public expenditure which will be involved in his new policy. Although the cut-back is not as severe as we believe necessary, it is severe nevertheless, and if we are to ask people to co-operate, they must be told—and they want to be told the truth in some detail. If they are not, the Chancellor can no longer expect unity and co-operation.
  I come to public borrowing. Here the Chancellor's somersault is the most staggering of all. In March he said that one of the country's most urgent needs in the battle against inflation was to reduce the public borrowing requirement. He made great play of reducing it by £1,500 million a year from the 1973–74 level down to £2,700 million in this current year. He made great play of that and of the profligacy and irresponsibility. of having the figure as high as it had been. During the summer he maintained that it would be profligate and irresponsible to increase the borrowing requirement by some £300 million to help industry over its crisis, even though by doing so that would reduce it by the same amount the next year.
  Now, far from reducing the borrowing requirement, he has all these months been allowing it to double. He has not reduced it to £2,700 million but has allowed it to double to £5,500 million, far above the 1973–74 level which he said was so wicked. Yesterday he proposed to increase it yet again to £6,300 million, and he has done so without any real expansion or argument. All he has done is blandly to assure us that this can be managed without risk of the money supply getting out of control or any other bad effects.
  Why is it now safe to do what was apparently so dangerous only four months ago? We must be told. How will the gilt market be able to cope with this
  442
  huge need, particularly with the Governmen's plans for nationalisation and the financial implications which flow from them? We must ask the Chancellor to give us hard arguments and explanation to justify this amazing somersault in his judgment. Unless and until he reconciles his judgment and policy about the borrowing requirement now with his vastly different judgment and policy in March, we must warn the country that inflation is likely to go unchecked and that the sacrifices the Chancellor is imposing upon it, although unpleasant, may well be in vain.
  I come to pay increases. The Chancellor and other Ministers have repeatedly and rightly warned about the vital importance of pay restraint. They now rightly say what we have been saying all along, that the alternative to pay restraint is unemployment. How are they to achieve that restraint? We are told it will be through the social contract, and certainly we need a voluntary compact about restraint and the conditions in which to achieve it.
  It must be, however, much more than the present vague and one-sided arrangement. It must be worked out with employers as well as with the unions and with other sectors of the community. I suggest that it should be worked out with Parliament and with parliamentary support and authority. It must be more definite and precise, so that employers and unions know whether they are keeping at least roughly within it in particular negotiations. The Chancellor must also provide some recognised universal machinery for examining and expressing a view about claims to be treated as a special case or there will be few, if any, ordinary cases.
  The Chancellor yesterday blandly, although in most imprecise terms, talked about the rate of inflation next year being lower than this year if pay settlements do no more than cover the increase in prices. Does he think that that is what is happening now? If he does, we should like the evidence upon which that view is based. If not, does he believe that situation will suddenly happen, and if it does not suddenly happen, what does he propose to do? Will he simply, as he warned, compensate for excessive pay increases by tougher cuts in public spending and tougher increases in taxation, with the extra unemployment that will

  443
  come from that? If so, who is deliberately trying to solve inflation by creating unemployment if not the right hon. Gentleman? On the other hand, will he make some new effort to keep pay increases in line with price increases?
  Here, again, the House and the country ought to be taken into the Government's thinking and confidence. This is an important element of fairness, because in a free-for-all wage explosion such as we appear to be entering, the powerful and the ruthless forge ahead while the weak and the responsible go to the wall.
  The third essential element in our three-to-four-year recovery programme is to protect the real incomes of those in our society who are in greatest need or who are least able to raise their incomes to keep pace with prices.
  What is needed, as we have repeatedly said, is to increase pensions and other long-term benefits twice a year, to give benefits to special groups, such as the disabled and elderly, to provide more opportunities for inflation-proofed forms of saving, to put a limit on mortgage interest rates and to transfer a large proportion of local government revenue from the rates to more widely spread forms of taxation.
  The Chancellor has acted in some but not all of these ways. We welcome what he has done, but we cannot help noting that it is strange that he is now introducing some measures which he had earlier refused to introduce, such as tax allowances for elderly people. He refused to consider such proposals favourably in the summer.
  Now that he has taken action, we welcome it, but we wish that he had done more on the lines that I have mentioned. We stress again, as we stressed throughout the General Election campaign, that extra expenditure on these top human priorities must be offset elsewhere, however difficult that may be.
  Here are the three structural elements in a three-or-four-year programme of national recovery—a boost to industry and agriculture, severe restraint in public spending and borrowing and in personal pay increases, and protection for those in need during what is bound to be a hard period in which most of us will have to
  444
  show restraint and patience and make sacrifices.
  This is not a recipe for an easy, quick or painless remedy. There is no such thing, and the real deception would be to pretend that there was. But it does offer, I believe, a viable programme which people could understand and support in a united way. It would edge us step by step in a measurable, visible way from the edge of the present crisis abyss.
  The Budget does something to move in this direction but it does not match the needs. It is a half truth and halfway Budget. It is a half-truth Budget because it is not yet spelling out clearly the sacrifices and restraints required from the majority of our people and because it has not given the people of Britain the real warning that they must be given, if they are to respond—as they must, and as they will, if given a chance.
  It is a half-way Budget because it is still waging only a phoney war against inflation, and because it will merely create a kidney machine economy in industry and will not restore full health to industry, which is the only section of our economy which can create the capacity for increasing our means in the future.
  4.52 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection (Mrs. Shirley Williams): Before replying to the right hon. Member for Carshalton (Mr. Carr) I wish to refer to two other contributions made by maiden speakers to yesterday's debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton, West (Mrs. Taylor), who made an eloquent plea for avoiding waste not only of resources, but of talent and energies of the less prosperous regions such as her own North-West. I say "Amen" to all she said, and I hope that we shall continue to hear from her in the future.
  I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East (Mr. Thomas) upon what he said in yesterday's debate. He was scornful about those who talk about slight increases in unemployment, for the good reason that he represents a Newcastle constituency. He also had worthwhile things to say about consumer affairs and consumer protection. I assure him, with regard to what he said about the independence of nationalised industries' consumer

  445
  councils, that he has a sympathetic ear from this Minister.
  I turn to what the right hon. Member for Carshalton has today said about the Budget. The Budget has its critics. Among them are the CBI, which predictably says that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not done enough, and the Leader of the Opposition, and some of his hon. Friends, as well as some of my hon. Friends.
  But the truth of the matter is that the Budget, which The Guardian described as one "that nobody loves" is a response to a crisis than nobody loves.
  The common thought of the critics is that each one of them has said, "We want more"—but it may be that there is not more for each one of them to have.
  My right hon. Friend has stressed time and again the crisis that we face. It is not a new crisis in this country; in many ways we have been weakened over the years to face a world-wide crisis.
  The one aspect that was in no way reflected in the speech of the right hon. Member for Carshalton was the international nature of the crisis, yet we are debating a Budget which has taken place only a day after a representative of Bangladesh said at the World Food Conference that unless steps are taken to reverse what is presently happening in the world, 1 million people will starve in the coming year. The Budget is also a day after the White House admitted that the United States is moving sharply into recession. We are also debating the Budget in the light of news from France, Germany, the United States and Italy of growing industrial dispute and conflict.
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: We are also debating the Budget the day after Krugerrands have gone up another £7. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor could have saved millions of pounds in relation to this, and helped our balance of payments, but he has refused to do anything about it.
  Mrs. Williams: I have no doubt that my hon. Friend will later try to develop his argument.
  We are in the middle of a major international crisis, and my right hon. Friend has rightly tried to draw attention to international circumstances and to the inter
  446
  national nature of the crisis. It would be a mistake to talk as if we were discussing a purely British crisis, as the right hon. Member for Carshalton did.
  It is true that we in this country have special problems of a heavy balance-of-payments deficit because of our major dependence on imports of fuel, food and raw materials. However, this is not unique to any particular Government. We have had a slow rate of growth and low levels of investment over the years. We have in this country an archaic industrial relations structure in which it is still the case that most employees neither have information about, nor a voice in, the decisions that affect them.
  All these long-term problems have to be tackled. But what confronted my right hon. Friend in the course of preparing the Budget was the immediate problem—here I accept what the right hon. Member for Carshalton said—of company liquidity, a problem of working capital, not least arising from the sudden increase in raw materials prices in the past 18 months and from high interest rates and problems of profitability.
  My right hon. Friend's judgment in this situation had to be extremely delicate. He had to do something to stimulate investment, maintain employment, retain foreign confidence and avoid major consequences for prices, as well as to encourage exports. It was an almost impossible list of tasks.
  It does not help if he is then attacked wholly unfairly and not on the basis of any facts at all, in this case, by the Leader of the Opposition.
  Last night in his comments on the Budget the Leader of the Opposition made great play with the charge against my right hon. Friend that he had not mentioned during the General Election campaign that there would be a possibility of additional taxation. A substantial part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech was devoted to belittling my right hon. Friend on this account, but only four days before the election, on 6th October, in the programme "Weekend World", my right hon. Friend said:
  "If private consumption rises more than I think it should, then I shall have to reduce it, either by taxation or by cutting public consumption, or public expenditure."
  That was a fair warning to give.

  447
  The Leader of the Opposition also attacked my right hon. Friend for saying that inflation had eased in the period shortly before the General Election. But that was undoubtedly true. I do not ask the House to look at the dispute between leading figures in the General Election. I ask the House to look at what was said by the independent Price Commission. The Price Commission made clear in its recent report that there was an easing of inflationary pressures, from a group of price applications which in the period from December to February amounted to a 23 per cent. annual rate of increase to 9½ per cent. between June and August. Yet the right hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Mr. Whitelaw) persisted during the election in implying that the number of applications for price increases was at a record level, and higher than ever before. Some of us who knew the facts, because we knew what the Price Commission report would say, were unable to refute or deny what he said. It was not factually correct. The evidence is that the rate of inflation slackened in the six months between March and August at an increasing rate of slackening, if I may put it in that strange way. We still retain a degree of advantage from that situation.
  Mr. Michael Alison: Does the right hon. Lady acknowledge that the Price Commission does not cover every price that goes into the Retail Price Index, such as household rates? It is unfair to take the Price Commission as evidence of the way the RPI is going.
  Mrs. Williams: I should be happy to take issue with the hon. Gentleman, because the figures my right hon. Friend used were correct. The argument between the Opposition and the Government is simply about the correct period of time to take. I am taking a different set of figures from a different source to show that what my right hon. Friend said was based upon facts available to him.
  Sir John Hall: Can the right hon. Lady help the House further by telling hon. Members the present annual rate of inflation?
  Mrs. Williams: On the basis of the past three months, it is 8·75 per cent., much below the rate in the last year in
  448
  which the Conservative Party was in office.
  My right hon. Friend was also attacked for what was described by the Leader of the Opposition as:
  "increases in prices deliberately created by the Government".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th November 1974; Vol. 881, c. 282.]
  Yet only a little later in his speech the Leader of the Opposition also berated my right hon. Friend for not doing enough for industry. The right hon. Gentleman had better decide which argument he will advance, because it is not possible to square this circle. Either he believes that we have not done enough or he believes that we have done too much. He cannot believe both at the same time.
  The truth is that, as my right hon. Friend told the House, the effect of the amended Price Code is expected to be under 1½ per cent. on the Retail Price Index compared with the continuation of the existing code, and the existing level of productivity deduction. The effects on the present levels of profitability are about 1 per cent. That is the best calculation we can make on the figures available to us.
  However, the right hon. Member for Carshalton chides my right hon. Friend because he has not predicted the statistics of inflation for the coming year. I ask hon. Members to look at some of the factors my right hon. Friend would have to get right if he were to do that in an honourable way. First, the commodity market is very uncertain. The indications are very contradictory. Wheat, maize, soya beans, pulp, zinc, and aluminium have all been rising in the past six months. The outlook for cereals and feeding stuffs is much more depressing than it was three months ago. On the other hand, wool, cotton, copper, rubber and the beverages are among the commodities that are still falling. Therefore, neither my right hon. Friend nor I could begin to make a calculation about one of the major factors affecting the Retail Price Index over the coming year.
  It is also true—the House must be aware of this, because the position is worrying—that in October the rise in the costs of raw materials bought in by industry was 3¾ per cent., the highest for over nine months. For the food manufacturing industry, the rise was 4¼ per cent. I hope, as does my right hon.

  449
  Friend, that that will prove to be a sudden hiccup in what has been up to now a downward trend, but we cannot say. We should be extremely foolish, and should rightly be condemned by the country, if we tried to predict a trend, either upwards or downwards, on the basis of the figures of recent months.
  A second major factor is labour costs. Settlements do affect prices, as my right hon. Friend made clear in his Budget speech. Whether we can control inflation depends on the level of settlements—none of us has made any bones about this—and on how far they stay within the TUC's guidelines. But it is also fair to say that some of those who do not regard themselves as necessarily being covered by the TUC guidelines, people in the professional and executive areas, such as banks and broadcasting, must see the guidelines as applying equally to them. No section of the community can opt out because it regards itself as salaried, self-employed or more highly paid.
  Mr. Carr: Of course, I appreciate the difficulties and vaguenesses and the uncertainties of the future about forecasting a rate of inflation. But were not those difficulties and vaguenesses just as great on 24th September, when the Chancellor, in the period of the election, forecast a rate near 10 per cent., provided the social contract was kept?
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Denis Healey): And provided there was no increase in import prices.
  Mr. Carr: Is the right hon. Gentleman still saying that? I do not think that he made that other qualification in his speech.
  Mrs. Williams: What my right hon. Friend said was based closely on what I have already told the House about the statement of the Price Commission, which said:
  "The fall in inflationary pressure which we as a Commission are seeing today"—
  the report was based upon the period up to the end of August—
  "will be reflected in retail prices in the course of the next few months. But unless the increase in labour costs can be restrained, this will be a false dawn."
  That was exactly the point my right hon. Friend made. He indicated that there was an expectation, with those underlying figures, that the rate of inflation would
  450
  fall markedly provided the social contract was maintained.
  A third factor that is bound to affect the cost of living over the next year or so is nationalised industry prices, to which the right hon. Gentleman fairly referred. Any honest critic would have to admit that Government interference in the nationalised industries and nationalised industry prices led to a degree of distortion that has been one of the present Government's most unfortunate inheritances. The Times referred to it this morning in its leading article, saying:
  "The original decision under the Conservative Government to hold down the prices charged by nationalised industries would have been unwise at the best of times and in the best of cases".
  We believed when we came to office that the size of the deficit of the nationalised industries was much lower than it was. We discovered that it was nearly three times as high as the official figures. As we all know now, it was running at the rate of £1,400 million a year at the time of the February election. Since then the cost of energy has rocketed. It was already beginning to do so before the February election.
  I want to make two points about nationalised industry subsidies, because some hon. Members on the Opposition benches are trying to draw parallels between those subsidies and food subsidies. First, nationalised industry subsidies are prime subsidies—that is, they are not directed towards the domestic consumer alone. They cover all forms that the product takes, whatever the purchaser. Secondly, there is no discrimination between types of energy and between types of consumer in the structure of pricing of nationalised industries. For example, there is no discrimination in favour of small consumers or the less well-off. Indeed, energy is consumed more heavily by better-off households, where there is some advantage in the tariff to the large consumer over the small consumer. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy is examining ways of helping small consumers.
  The previous Government would have been in a much stronger position to attack what they sometimes describe as indiscriminate subsidies if they had made any attempt to make their subsidies of energy more discriminatory.
  Mr. John Davies: Is the right hon. Lady saying that within the electricity tariff there is an absolute impartiality in pricing between the industrial and the domestic consumer?
  Mrs. Williams: The right hon. Gentleman has not understood my point. I was saying that the subsidy applied to industrial and domestic consumers alike. It is not in the same proportion, but it is across the board. There is no discrimination within the pricing structure towards the small or the poor consumer. On the contrary, the advantage is given to the large consumer of electricity. That is how I understand the position.
  The Leader of the Opposition accused my right hon. Friend of not having done enough. To be fair, he said that it was an open question whether he had done enough. There is, as I have already said, incompatibility in what the Leader of the Opposition had to say.
  The changes that we have made in the Price Code are clear. They have been directed especially towards investment and employment. Above all, we did not want to repeat what the Financial Times in a feature article yesterday described as
  "the mindless chase after growth of 1972 and 1973."
  That is why we have endeavoured to make our help as discriminatory and selective as it can be granted the available machinery. I am well aware that some of my hon. Friends would have liked to have seen a yet more selective approach, but I think that they also recognise the immediacy of the current problems of investment and unemployment. Those problems do not permit us to wait for months until we have additional machinery. My Department and the Treasury have made the most careful inquiries to try to establish as clearly as possible the present position.
  I want to make it clear that we have not relied merely on general claims from industry, or from any other quarter. We have not relied only on the CBI survey although that has been fairly accurate in the past. We have considered a great deal of detailed information that has been made available to us. It cannot be refuted, on the basis of that detailed information, that in some sectors of industry the investment and employment
  452
  position would be serious if no action were taken and taken quickly.
  Mr. Nigel Lawson: As the right hon. Lady and the Chancellor of the Exchequer have said that they are so concerned to avoid waste, why is it that the proposed changes in the Price Code are so directed that the firms which use labour most wastefully receive the biggest concession on the basis of productivity deduction?
  Mrs. Williams: Perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to deal with that at a later stage.
  I turn to the information that has been made available to us and on which I shall give one or two examples. We know of a large company in the metal-making and processing industry which is cutting back its investment by a quarter. We know of a large company employing many thousands of people in the food and packaging business with plants in development areas which is cutting investment to replacement requirements only. We know of an engineering firm which cannot finance more than a replacement level of investment. There is evidence, although it is not general evidence covering all sectors of industry, that immediate action is necessary. That includes the co-operative sector as well as the private sector.
  I wish to make it clear to my hon. Friends that the steps that the Chancellor and I have taken are compatible with the development of planning agreements in the medium term. My right hon. Friend and I believe that a much greater flow of information is necessary for future economic plans. That should also cover medium-sized and small firms for which planning agreements are not intended but which are an important part of our economy.
  As the House will know, industry asked for the abolition of price control or its replacement with profit control only. We have not been able to accept that. It was never the purpose of the review to get rid of price control altogether but rather to keep effective control. It is not my idea of effective control, although it may be the idea of some Conservative hon. Members, that all cost increases should pass directly into prices. I believe that that is a recipe for more inflation

  453
  and not less. The Price Commission in its recent report warned of exactly that. There is evidence of what happened in the United States when price restraint was suddenly removed.
  Mr. Nicholas Ridley: Will the right hon. Lady say why it is that the only item which has rocketed down in price is housing, which is not subject to price control?
  Mrs. Williams: The hon. Gentleman is doubtless aware that there are many other factors involved. I was not aware that crude oil was subject to the Price Code and yet the price of crude oil has rocketed up five times over. I think that the hon. Gentleman is making a false point.
  I have been persuaded for the reasons that I have indicated that certain changes need to be made. We have concentrated the help that we are giving to industry on a new investment relief. Yesterday my hon. Friend the Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Mackintosh) argued that we should have concentrated on investment relief and that we should have done our best to ensure that investment took place. I hope to assure the House that that is exactly what we have done. Next year firms will be able to add to prices 17½ per cent. of the cost of selected kinds of investment. That is not the whole cost of the investment but 17½ per cent. of it.
  The kind of investment which will attract relief is investment in plant and machinery and industrial buildings for the home market. Exports are already free from control and companies are more able to finance export investment than they are home investment. The relief on plant and machinery will extend to the distribution sector as well as to manufacturing firms. That has been urged strongly by the distribution little Neddy, by the co-operative movement, by the Retail Consortium and many others in the retail trade.
  We have responded by accepting the extension of the investment relief to distribution. I hope that that will be welcomed in all informed sectors of the House. Some Conservative hon. Members seem to find it extremely funny for reasons that are beyond me. We have included industrial buildings but not commercial buildings because we are anxious to concentrate on productive investment.
  454
  We do not wish to see the kind of across-the-board rush for growth that is condemned in the Financial Times article.
  If firms do not carry out their programme the relief will be stopped. Firms will not be allowed to claim price increases based on other rises in allowable costs such as wages and raw materials until any excess investment relief has been absorbed. We are satisfied that the situation is closely controlled. The Price Commission will review the position at the end of each six months. We believe that firms will welcome being accountable in this way. That is the new element in the code. There has never previously been an element concerning itself with investment relief, save for paragraph 70 which gave such relief only in exceptional circumstances. I believe that all hon. Members who are familiar with the code will welcome the concept of giving some relief for the purposes of investment. The selective assistance under the Industry Act will remain, and the relief to which I have referred will be additional.
  I turn to the productivity deduction. We think that it would not have been possible to maintain the deduction at 50 per cent. without serious risks to employment. When the previous Government fixed the rate of 50 per cent. the main source of inflation was from raw materials and there was a remedy in some increase in productivity. Those firms that could make increases in productivity have done so in the light of the tight effect of the productivity deduction over the past 18 months. It would be unfair to believe that the firms which have already moved on productivity can move on it time and again.
  We have therefore accepted the case for a reduction in the productivity deduction because it bites harder than it did. I believe that if we did not reduce it to some extent we would not only encourage but conceivably even force firms to lay off everybody they could find to make redundant.
  We must, however, keep a productivity deduction because we believe that it is the instrument which prevents firms from passing every labour cost increase into prices and that it offers some encouragement to efficiency. Finally, we believe that it does something to discourage excessive salary and wage settlements.

  455
  We have, however, decided to make the productivity deduction rather more sensitive. Had we not done this, the rate would have had to be higher than we are now proposing. We therefore suggest a tapering upwards which, at the maximum, for heavily capital-intensive processes will be 35 per cent. This still gives some relief on the previous figure, but it recognises the relatively small proportion of labour costs in the total costs of such industries. It sets a standard rate for the great bulk of firms at 20 per cent. and suggests a tapering down for labour-intensive processes.
  To deal with the point made by the hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson), it is a false conclusion that those sections of industry which are more labour-intensive are necessarily less efficient. It is certainly a conclusion that I would not begin to accept for the food manufacturing industry, which is one of the more efficient industries and which for obvious reasons has a high labour content.
  Mr. Lawson: But within any particular section of industry, is it not the case that, as between two firms—one which is wasteful and hoards labour and one which does not—under the right hon. Lady's scheme the one which is wasteful and hoards labour would get more generous treatment?
  Mrs. WilliamsFirst of all, I think that it would go out of business. If the hon. Gentleman looks at the way in which the proposal is drawn up he will see that it is highly unlikely that firms in the same sector of industry would have the kind of differences that I am talking about. These are differences which apply to processes and not as between firms.
  There is clearly a limit to what we can accept on the price level, and the effect of the changes that I have mentioned is difficult to measure, but I have given the best estimate that I can make of what those effects will be. They are based on the continuing erosion of profits even as a result of the lower productivity deduction, which is, however, offset by the investment relief and the other safeguards to which I shall come later.
  Before I come to those further safeguards, I want to say something further about the productivity deduction. There
  456
  is a reference in the consultative document to the possibility of using the productivity deduction to impose a higher penalty on firms which make settlements outside the social contract. I am not talking about an elaborate apparatus for deciding what settlements are within or without the social contract, because the Government have had enough of pay boards and pay codes. What we are asking is whether it would be right for the code to impose an additional penalty—I choose the word deliberately—where the increase in salary or wage costs is very high.
  I want to make it clear that this is for consultation. It is a matter for discussion, because the Government believe that this is a matter which should be discussed by all sides of industry and because we believe that the serious-minded elements in the trade unions and in the companies want to get this as near right as they can. We shall discuss this with both sides of industry. The Government are wholly uncommitted on the matter and simply wish to listen to opinions about it.
  I must now say something about safeguards. I prefer to put the main emphasis on investment, rather than to provide safeguards which would directly enable companies to restore their profit margins to the higher figures of a year or two ago. I am maintaining the 10 per cent. cut in gross margins that I put on non-food distributors in May, following the similar action in respect of food distributors by the Price Commission, but I know that some distributors are below the safeguards that I then set. In the case of a distributor who is below the safeguard, I am allowing him to reach it, if necessary by going above the gross reference margin. The net reference margin remains the same, but we recognise that some distributors have exceptional costs which may mean that the relation between the gross reference margin and the net reference margin is distorted in their case.
  The Leader of the Opposition asked yesterday whether the changes that I have outlined in the Price Code were so complicated as to be unworkable. The right hon. Member for Carshalton will recognise that, in order not to take up the time of the House, there are details concerning, for instance, exceptional treatment in the price code of shortages of materials, such matters as the inclusion

  457
  for report of Category III companies, which I am not touching upon now because there will be further opportunities to debate them—[An HON. MEMBER: "When?"] The opportunities will arise on the Price Code amendments themselves, which have to come before the House on an affirmative resolution.
  The Leader of the Opposition asked whether the changes made were so complicated as to be unworkable. We have had to make some changes simply to make the code workable at all. For instance, we have inherited a virtually unworkable safeguard with regard to profit erosion for manufacturing. The so-called 90 per cent. safeguard has been criticised by many sectors of industry and by the Chairman of the Price Commission himself, who recently told a Financial Times conference that a great deal of complaint and even protest had arisen about it.
  These are theologies which we inherited, and we are now trying as far as we can to simplify them. What we are going for is simpler safeguards based upon products and not upon enterprises—something that the CBI asked for. We are setting the safeguard itself at a lower level—one-third below instead of 10 per cent.—but we are satisfied that it will now be accessible equally to firms who cannot afford sophisticated accountants as to those who can. I do not believe that one can defend distinctions in the Price Code that arise simply in terms of whether firms can understand it or not.
  Turning to the coverage of nationalised industries under the code, we are treating the public sector and the private sector for the first time in an equivalent way. Many of my hon. Friends will recognise that that should have happened when the code was introduced. This means that nationalised industries will be treated on the same footing as private industries in respect of the safeguards which apply. But I must make it clear that Ministers retain their overall authority in respect of price increases and changes, as has been the case for many years.
  I end by apologising for the length of what I have had to say, but I am afraid that this is a matter on which I believe that many hon. Members wish to have more information. We are now embarking upon a most intensive two
  458
  weeks of consultations. The reason for the brevity of this period is that we have already engaged in full and lengthy consultations with virtually every section of industry, before presenting the White Paper. Powerful representations have been made to us on both sides of industry that the code must be urgently changed. The House will recognise that we have brought these proposals forward within one month of the General Election, and have thus kept to our original timetable, if one allows for the three weeks that the election took. There will be opportunity for further debate in the House and for representations from all sides of industry.
  I stress at the end that what we have tried to do throughout is to balance the powerful claims, as the right hon. Member for Carshalton put it, of battling inflation against the claims of avoiding mass unemployment. This is a difficult judgment—almost a judgment of Solomon—but I believe that, by stressing investment and employment above all in the Price Code, we have got the balance about right.
  5.29 p.m.
  Mr. Jeremy Thorpe: May I, first, say to the Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection that she need have no feeling that she must apologise to the House for having spoken at length. She did not. If all Ministers could give us as much information in such a short period of time as she has done, the House of Commons would greatly benefit. We are grateful to the right hon. Lady for her brevity and clarity that might be a model for some Ministers present and not present to follow. It was a pleasure to listen to the right hon. Lady. as it always is, whether she is talking on prices, Europe, referenda or on any other subject which is close to her heart.
  I have usually found the right hon. Lady's logic impeccable. I found her argument about the necessity for a realistic pricing policy for the nationalised industries impeccable. I felt that she was putting forward a better case for the free market economy than had been practised by the previous Conservative Government, but we are all free marketeers now.
  Her logic went wrong when she did not apply to food subsidies her criticism of the blanket nature of subsidies to the

  459
  nationalised industries. The subsidy coverage on food is just as much of a blanket nature as it is for the nationalised industries. For that reason my right hon. and hon. Friends and I have always preferred to see far more specialised help in the form of family allowances paid to the first child and extension of the credit income tax system to produce a guaranteed minimum income for every householder. I found the right hon. Lady's logic not so convincing as usual on that subject.
  The right hon. Lady made one statement of profound significance when she said that the Government are to have discussions to see whether it is necessary to impose some form of "penalty"—a word she said she used advisedly—on those who receive an excessive wage or salary award. She said that the Government are uncommitted. They may well be uncommitted. They were not uncommitted during the recent General Election when they regarded it as a wicked and terrible idea put forward only by Liberals.
  Mr. William Hamilton: Look what has happened to you.
  Mr. Thorpe: Majorities are not always right, and minorities are not always wrong. The proof of that is the position we have taken on many issues, not least on the European Community, of which the hon. Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton) has been a consistent supporter, which is more than can be said of some of his colleagues.
  What the right hon. Lady said is a highly significant reflection upon the present thinking of the Government on the social contract. Just as it was in 1966 as passionately opposed to any form of statutory intervention as were the Tories in 1970, so the Labour Party became converted in 1969, as did the Tories in 1973. It is perfectly true that the statutory attempts failed, but it is also true that every voluntary attempt has failed. So we are starting off all square. I believe that the concept of a tax on inflation, both on prices and incomes, is something that the Government will have to become committed to if they are to contain inflation.
  The right hon. Member for Carshalton (Mr. Carr) said that he felt that industry
  460
  was being placed on a kidney machine.—[Interruption.] I hope that I am not interrupting the hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Lewis).
  Mr. Arthur Lewis rose—
  Mr. Thorpe: It is probably better to say—[Interruption.]
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Oscar Murton): Order. The hon. Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Lewis) must not keep on interrupting from a sedentary position. If the right hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe) does not wish to give way, he is perfectly within his rights not to do so.
  Mr. Lewis: Yes, but I am talking about the right hon. Member's racketeering company charging exorbitant interest.
  Mr. Thorpe: The analogy of the kidney machine is not perhaps strictly correct. Having knocked private industry round the shop during their first eight months, the Government have now tried to apply artificial respiration—which we hope will be successful. I have a shrewd suspicion—and there is much in the Budget with which I am in agreement—that the Chancellor would be a much happier man if he had been able to introduce yesterday's Budget last July or even last March. He was prevented from doing that by the imminence of an election, and it has taken the normal postelection Budget for the right hon. Gentleman to do many of the things which he would have liked to do many months ago. He can afford to be much tougher on his Left wing because he has proof of what some of those ideological policies have achieved in terms of low investment and inflation. Therefore, he has happily reversed many of the trends of the last eight months, some of which were unwise and some disastrous.
  The Chancellor's analysis of the economic situation was right as to its tone, as to the facts and as to the conclusions he drew. I was particularly impressed by the philosophy which he expressed in these words:
  "The senseless accumulation of material goods of exactly the same type as the Western world has been producing since the war can no longer be regarded as the only guarantee of human happiness or the only measure of economic success."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th November 1974; Vol. 881, c. 255.]
  That is entirely right.

  461
  There has had to be some obeisance to the political pressures. There is the retrospective repayment of the £10 million, which we debated on 19th June last. My hon. Friends and I are opposed to the retrospective nature of the repayment and we do not accept the validity of the Chancellor's argument that there are no alternatives. There are alternatives—in hiving off those who did not register; and we shall say more about that later.
  Again, it was a genuflection to party ideology that the investment income surcharge had to start at £1,000. When one considers that average industrial earnings are more than double that figure, that is a pretty low income for a non-pensioner who is disabled and has only his unearned income upon which to live. For some that will be a negative net income when one considers the change in the capital value of holdings. I believe that to be a particularly mean measure.
  Mr. John Mendelson: The right hon. Gentleman, having said that the Chancellor has been tough on the Left wing of the Labour Party, is getting on to the tedious point that the moderate right of centre Cabinet has produced a Budget that pleases him greatly, yet at the same time he claims that it has all been done under pressure from the Left. If we have had little influence on the framing of the Budget we do not want to be blamed for what is in it.
  Mr. Thorpe: I am not certain whether that is the voice of anguish from the hon. Gentleman. I do not know whether he is going through the turmoils of the oppressed and betrayed or whether he is reasonably satisfied.
  I believe the Chancellor's economic analysis was correct, but it is a matter for consideration whether the political pressures upon him have caused him to go less far than he should have done and to do certain things that he should not have done. I have given two instances, the unearned income relief and the £10 million retrospective repayment, where the Chancellor has not been able to get the Left wing out of his system. I hope that he will continue to purge himself of these pressures.
  It is fair to say that the Government's policy yesterday—it changed somewhat today in the right hon. Lady's speech—
  462
  was that the social contract and the Government's ability to control prices and incomes would be the central strategy in battling against inflation. The question we all ask is whether the social contract will in itself be sufficient. We all fervently hope that it will, but I passionately believe that that is unlikely. The revealing statement towards the end of the right hon. Lady's speech indicates that she, too, may harbour some doubts and so do the Government.
  What the Chancellor was saying, in effect, as reported in column 249 of HANSARD yesterday, is that if wages rise beyond limits set by the TUC, the Government will be compelled to take offsetting steps to curtail demand, the effect of which is bound to lead to unemployment, as Mr. Jack Jones pointed out in his recent powerful speech. The Chancellor was saying yesterday that it must be the social contract or there will be unemployment. I do not believe that the alternatives are quite as stark as that.
  I believe that I was right in 1967, if I may make a Prime Ministerial reference back to date, though I cannot give the exact time of day or the day on which I said—and I remember being howled down in the House by Labour and Conservative Members—that positive Government intervention on pay and productivity, backed by realistic sanctions, is the proper price to pay for full employment. That has been reversed by the Government. The strategy of encouraging industrial investment, of conserving energy, of having a realistic pricing policy in the nationalised industries and of protecting people at the bottom of the scale can succeed only if inflation can be controlled I do not believe that it can be controlled by the social contract that we now have. I hope that I shall be proved wrong, but I shall not labour the matter further because the Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection has gone some way to admitting it.
  On industrial investment, the right hon. Lady told the House that there was a clear need for action. Very few hon. Members on the Opposition benches needed to be told that. We have been aware of it for a very long time. The mere fact that the right hon. Gentleman has had to reverse the trend to the extent of £1,500 million to encourage invest

  463
  ment is an admission of the devastating effect which lack of inflation accounting, and high rates of tax and lack of confidence have had on profitability and the investment pattern of industry. Has the Chancellor now come to the view that dividend and profit control is the worst way of taxing industry and that what is needed is a pay and price taxation system at plant level? I believe that this is the best way to give a return to the community while maintaining levels of employment.
  I should like to say a few words about relaxation of price control. This will place inevitable pressures on the social contract. Len Murray is reported as saying that he approves of the Budget. That is a hopeful and welcome sign, but his view is that if prices go up then wages must go up.
  I hope that we shall not be put back to the position illustrated by the PEP publication "Labour and Inequality"—namely, that between 1966 and 1970 the lower-paid wage earner got relatively worse off under a Labour Government while differentials increased between these wage earners and those at the top of the scale. I believe that it is desperately important to move towards guaranteed minimum earnings. If we cannot have that system, as some other countries have managed to achieve it, we should at least have a guaranteed minimum income for every family which could be used in a negative income tax system. That was one of the few good innovations introduced by Mr. Barber when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer. I hope that the Government will use negative income tax as a weapon in tackling poverty far more effectively than any other weapon available.
  I should like to have seen ACT abolished, but I believe that the Chancellor has found an ingenious formula which saves his face, without a total volte face, on increased corporation tax and ACT. I welcome this.
  On the subject of energy, the Chancellor had a choice of restricting consumption by rationing or by pricing. He chose the latter and the arguments are fairly evenly balanced. Just as the right hon. Lady in her statement said she would be talking with the Chancellor
  464
  about the position of old-age pensioners and the disabled, I should like to refer briefly to the position of many people who have to travel long distances to work, particularly in rural areas where no public transport is available. Travel to work in these circumstances places a heavy burden on many people.
  This is not the moment to suggest what could be done, but possibly the regional employment premium could be extended to allow a getting-to-work allowance to be paid to people who live, say, more than 12 miles away from their place of work. We may have to go to a two-tier pricing system, as happens in Italy, in respect of people who have no alternative but to use public transport. It may be that we should follow Germany and adopt some form of tax allowance. I only hope that this matter will be looked at carefully by the Government.
  On the nationalised industries, I believe that the Government are wholly right to say that we should no longer subsidise people artificially to use scarce resources, but we must always remember that some of the lowest paid workers are employed in the nationalised industries, particularly in services. They are industries which, by and large, have low profitability margins, and the squeeze on labour will be great. This is another matter which the Government will have to watch carefully, and they will have to link it with retraining programmes. If the effect of having an economic price system in nationalised industries were immediately to produce unemployment, the Government might find that the balance would be seriously upset.
  I believe it to be a logical step that sterling guarantees are to be discontinued, particularly at a time of floating exchange rates. The rate of the pound against the Smithsonian rate was running today at 19·9 per cent. I felt that the Chancellor was suggesting that he was prepared to see a further, although not a major, depreciation of the pound. That would not be a wrong decision provided that it would increase our competitiveness at a time when we hope to see raw material costs falling.
  I should like to have seen some move towards index-linked bonds, which the Labour Government envisaged in regard to national savings. I should like to see

  465
  that system extended. I am not convinced that the payment of family allowance for the first child need take as long as the Chancellor thinks. I also believe that the earnings rule should be abolished.
  Let me turn to the subject of local government. It is right that there will have to be cuts in this area. The problem of local government is that the Conservative Government reorganised local government without reorganising local government finance. That is the problem we now face. There is no doubt that every reorganisation has meant more staff and higher rates of pay. Every local authority will have to look carefully at staffing problems, but there will be problems in low-rated areas. By and large they are ususally development areas, and perhaps they will need some form of rate support grant, geared to the situation in development areas—unless there are to be further cuts in road building and other building and consequent unemployment.
  The message of the Budget is that the Chancellor is prepared to allow and encourage firms to make profits so that they will have liquidity with which to invest. That is a step in the right direction. In other words, employers will not be squeezed to keep down wages. That is not their job. We cannot insulate ourselves from the pressures of the world economy, we cannot go on having artificial prices in the nationalised industries, and the social contract, vital as it is, may need further sanctions, as we heard today from the right hon. Lady. More important than anything else is the climate created by the Government.
  We have had three Budgets in one year and almost everything introduced in March has been reversed in October. I hope that we shall now have a period of stability. As Professor Sam Brittan said today in the Financial Times,
  "The real measures to deal with inflation have yet to be seen, and those measures will emerge through the pressure of events and not necessarily through Government statements."
  That is right, and I hope the Government will create a climate in which investment will be encouraged. The extension of FFI is a good move. It will remain to be seen whether that body or the National Enterprise Board jostle in the row and
  466
  whether the Secretary for Industry will or will not have his lollipop taken out of his mouth. We shall wait to see the Government's attitude on investment or where the FFI operates.
  I think that this Government have realised the error of some of their ways. We must be grateful for small and even larger mercies.
  5.50 p.m.
  Mr. Guy Barnett: At intervals in my speech, I shall want to be mildly critical of the Budget. Having listened to the right hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe), this fact gives me a little cause for concern. As I understood it, the right hon. Gentleman's speech was largely agreeing with the Government policy. I shall find myself at a greater distance from the position that the Government have taken in their financial policy than was the right hon. Gentleman.
  However, I congratulate him on one feature of his speech. It was a constructive speech. I welcome that, especially having listened to the Leader of the official Opposition yesterday. His speech, I thought, was a thoroughly disgraceful performance. It was irresponsible. Today's opening speech from the Opposition Front Bench was something of an improvement on that of the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath) yesterday, for his speech was remarkable from one who fought an election campaign on the basis of the need for national unity and for honesty in politics.
  To illustrate my point, I make only one quotation from what he said. Speaking about the CBI survey, the right hon. Gentleman said:
  "Investment is now the worst in the 16 years since the survey has been carried out, except for the immediate period after the July measures of 1966. A 10 per cent. fall in 1975 is what is expected as a result of that survey, and 15 months ago the, forecasts were the highest ever on record. That is what the present Government have managed to do in 15 months to investment prospects in this country."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th November 1974; Vol. 881. c. 285.]
  If the Leader of the Opposition were here, I know that he would recall that the Labour Government have not been in power for 15 months. We have had a Labour Government for barely nine months. The right hon. Gentleman will

  467
  also be aware that, between the survey published by the CBI last year and the one this year, we have had a massive oil crisis. He failed, unfortunately, even to mention that yesterday. We have also had the three-day week and a period of confrontation. Both have a good deal to do with the situation which he attempted to describe.
  What disturbs me is that the right hon. Gentleman chose the CBI survey to illustrate the case that he was attempting to make, instead of quoting the actual figures of the situation as they are published. I looked up those figures, and they make very interesting reading. They demonstrate that, since Labour came to power, and certainly during the first two quarters of this year, the investment rate in manufacturing industry has compared very favourably with the situation during the whole of 1973. If a graph were drawn, it would show that with Labour's return to power—although the Government do not pretend to accept full responsibility at this stage—investment in manufacturing industry was restored for the first time to roughly the level which obtaind when my right hon. and hon. Friends left office in 1970.
  Mr. Peter Rees: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman wishes to be fair to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. He will see in column 281 of the OFFICIAL REPORT that my right hon. Friend referred to the challenge presented by the oil crisis.
  Mr. Barnett: It may be that the right hon. Gentleman referred to it in passing. However, it is important to give full weight to the appalling situation which the Labour Government inherited as a result of the three-day week, and the right hon. Gentleman failed completely to do that.
  The Leader of the Opposition then referred to the need for national unity, just as he did in the General Election campaign, without ever explaining how he believed that national unity could be achieved. In view of that, I wish to spend a little time talking about a subject which has been mentioned already but which is of crucial importance in this Budget and, to a degree, a criticism of it. I refer, of course, to the social contract.
  468
  In my view, the social contract must lie at the heart of the strategy which the Government should put into effect. It is not merely a matter of their individual policies. Their strategy as a whole must be formed on the basis of the social contract. The reason why the Opposition can never support the social contract or talk seriously in terms of national unity is that at the heart of the social contract is the need for a fundamental shift in the balance of wealth and power towards working people and their families. This is vital not merely because it is morally right and because we as Socialists believe that this is the way that society must move but because these are the very demands which are being made more and more stridently in the community at large.
  Such a shift is essential because the demands are being made now by sections of the community which over the years have been prepared to accept exceptionally low standards of living. I have in mind such people as dustmen, teachers, nurses and other hospital workers, railway men and public servants generally. We recognise that over the years certain sections of the community have been wrongly and badly treated.
  I echo what the right hon. Member for Devon, North said earlier. One encouraging feature of the trade union movement is its recognition of the need to help the lower paid. This is a much more efficient way of seeing a proper balance between one section of the working population and another than any talk of a guaranteed minimum wage.
  We are discussing differentials as between one group of workers and another. We shall not achieve a permanent change in those differentials without the willing acceptance and understanding of those in the trade union movement who are bound to have their differentials affected.
  That is the reason why we should judge this Budget in the light of the social contract. However, when we talk about the social contract we are talking not merely about the rewards in industry and about the pay packet that a man takes home. We are talking about rents, rates, and even the schools to which our children go. We are talking about pensions and about the environment in which individuals live. With the increasing demands being made for the involvement

  469
  of people in decision making, more than ever we are talking about a decision on the balance of power as well as a decision on the balance of wealth.
  There are one or two very important matters in this Budget. I welcomed a great deal of the statement today by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services because it went a long way to reassure me about some of the matters that I intended to raise in this debate. One of them concerned family allowances. I am delighted to hear that discussions are going ahead and that the Government are apprised of the need to ensure that in future the first child qualifies for the family allowance. One of the worst forms of 'poverty is that of the unmarried mother with one child, and this situation is not catered for without the family allowance that is so necessary.
  I hope the Government will ensure that increased charges for gas, electricity and coal will not be introduced before the pension increase comes into force, otherwise many old people are bound to suffer. I expect the information to be given fairly soon, but we have no idea when these increases are likely to occur. I repeat my hope that the Government will ensure that there is no increase in the price of fuel, particularly as it affects old people, until pensions have been increased, which effectively means this winter.
  I welcome the Chancellor's decision about tax relief for old people who work. This is a thoroughly good step. It will remove a grave sense of injustice which is felt by many old people—some of them my constituents—and which has been expressed to me, and which I have passed on to the Treasury. In addition, it will give old people the feeling that society in general appreciates the work that they do after the normal retirement age. This change will not only make it worth while for old people to work but will make them feel that society wants them to work. That is one of the most important aspects of the change.
  I referred earlier to the social contract being wider than mere wages. I want to refer particularly to an area of the Budget that is rather shadowy, namely, the effect that the Government's financial policy will have upon the social services. If members of the Labour Party are serious about the need to shift the bal
  470
  ance of wealth, we must wipe out such things as slum schools. These are often to be found in those parts of our towns and big cities where the poorer sections of the community live and where the need is greatest.
  I was delighted earlier this year when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science was able to announce that £10 million—a relatively small sum, I agree—was to be concentrated on these poorer areas. We accept that local authority expenditure will have to be cut, or at least that local authorities will not be allowed to increase their expenditure to any great extent, but if we are serious about wanting to redistribute wealth we, as a Government, must ensure that we direct our resources—and I mean more than £10 million—into those areas where there is the greatest need.
  I am careful to stand up in the leafy suburbs of my constituency and proudly tell people that they will get nothing because such money as is available should go to areas where there is the greatest need. I hope the Government will take that point very much to heart because it is vitally important and relates to the social contract about which we have all been speaking.
  I now want to refer briefly to the Government's plans for industry. I do not claim to be an expert, and there are others who can speak with greater authority on this matter than I can, but I must admit to feeling a little apprehensive. We need a lot more information about the Finance for Industry idea.
  If I have got the right impression from the Press, it seems to me that this is very much an eleventh-hour solution to a problem. To judge from certain newspapers, that seems to be the position. I have a small investment in insurance funds, and so have thousands of other people. If money is invested in a medium-sized firm and that firm goes bust, will that money be safe? I should like an assurance from the Government that the Bank of England will ensure that my small contribution to my insurance fund will be safe.
  If that is to be the case, and if the Bank of England will be prepared to step in and use public money to get me out of trouble, I should like to be certain that there will be public accountability,

  471
  because it must be remembered that public funds are to be used.
  This is of great importance and it relates to what I said earlier about the social contract, because many people work in the kind of firm to which I have referred. Back benchers cannot insist that every jot and tittle of Labour Party policy is carried out to the letter, but we can insist that the spirit of it is carried out in full, and one of the things that we said during the election was that we want accountability to the Government and to the trade union movement. Some of the things said this afternoon by my right hon. Friend about various concessions under the Price Code for firms that are prepared to invest will, I hope, mean that information will be available not only to the Government but to trade union representatives in the factory concerned, because that is implicit in the policies that we put before the country.
  I said earlier that the FFI sounded very much like an eleventh-hour exercise. No doubt the Governor of the Bank of England has been successful in persuading a number of financial institutions and clearing banks to make money available for investment, but one or two banks in the City appear not to be as financially strong as they might be. Furthermore, there have been certain rumours, and I should like an assurance that this sum of £1,000 million, or whatever it is, can be delivered and that this is not just a vague promise. I should like an assurance that the banks have said they can put up the money and that the money is there. I do not detect from the Budget Statement that that is so, and the matter should be spelled out in greater detail than it has been so far.
  I said that I should be critical of the Government and that I should be brief. I hope that the points I have made will be taken up by the Government because I am concerned about these matters. The point of a Budget debate is that we raise matters of concern. If I have been more critical of the Budget than the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Liberal Party was, I feel certain that my right hon. and hon. Friends will forgive me.
  6.10 p.m.
  Mr. Hugh Fraser: The hon. Member for Greenwich (Mr.
  472
  Barnett) has cast doubt on the excellence, accuracy and probity of the Chancellor and the Governor of the Bank of England. That was an unfortunate thing to do this afternoon, faced as we are by an extremely dangerous crisis to which so far the level of debate has not perhaps risen. The state of the crisis can be seen more particularly if we look at today's trade figures and the position of sterling on the foreign exchange.
  Before I address the House, I have a delicate question—a point of order—which I must raise with you, Mr. Speaker. It is that in column 264 of yesterday's proceedings in the OFFICIAL REPORT I am reported as having engaged in a brilliant piece of dialogue with the Chancellor. I happened to be asleep at the time. I hope that this can be corrected.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. Does the right hon. Gentleman never talk in his sleep?
  Mr. Fraser: It may not be in your recollection, Mr. Speaker, but it is within the historic recollection of the House that the great Lord Hartington, who was the thorn in the flesh of Mr. Gladstone, once rose at a public meeting and said,
  "I dreamed I was addressing their Lordships and, my God, I was."
  That is an occasion which I do not propose to repeat today. I am very much alerted by the problems facing us.
  It may be remembered that in July when the Chancellor produced his second Budget, 27 Members of the Tory Party and two Liberals voted against that Budget on the grounds that it was inflationary. Tonight I am prepared to give the Chancellor, in his third Budget, the benefit of the doubt. I hope that some of my right hon. and hon. Friends will ponder deeply whether they should vote against the Budget as a whole. I say this for two main reasons, if I can give two rather strangled and muted cheers for what the Chancellor is now endeavouring to do.
  In spite of the "8¼ per cent." remarks during the election, in spite of the extreme pressure put on him by his own Left wing, the Chancellor has at least put forward a Budget which at this moment is not palpably inflationary. Secondly, he is moving, if very hesitantly, back towards a market economy. For these things there is due to him a certain

  473
  amount of respect, if not praise. Of course, there are doubts, and this is the mystery of the Budget. Bits of it keep being unveiled, such as the statement we had from the Secretary of State for Social Services this afternoon.
  We do not yet know what the real pricings will be for the nationalised industries. We have to give the Chancellor the benefit of the doubt. We do not know to what levels industry will be allowed to put up its prices. The right hon. Lady was by no means clear on this subject today. We do not know what will happen about public expenditure. The Budget, now that I have fully awakened to it and read it on several occasions, puts Members in rather the same situation as they were placed in the eighteenth century at the time of the South Sea Bubble debate—"Great enterprises which will later be revealed." Looking at some of the things the Chancellor said yesterday, perhaps we might call this the North Sea Bubble Budget.
  Until we know the facts—and we shall not know them for some time—I ask some of my right hon and hon. Friends to suspend their judgment and not to vote against the Budget per se. Of course, there may be bits of it, like the £10 million being handed back to the unions and other resolutions, which should be voted against. But I believe that it would be wrong for the Conservative Party to vote tomorrow evening against what is a genuine attempt by the Government to overcome some of their electoral follies and some of the wilder views of their Left wing.
  The most obvious danger lies with this question of the actual expenditure for next year which the Government refuse to announce. They talk about a 2·7 per cent. rate of increase in Government expenditure, put against a proposed or hoped-for 2 per cent. increase in gross domestic product. It is becoming clear that it is difficult to cut back on any Government spending. One thing Governments are always wrong about is the increase in GDP. If hon. Members saw the tape this afternoon they will have seen that the EEC forecast is now for nil growth.
  If that is true, and if the Government come forward with a 2.75 per cent. in-
  474
  crease in real terms in Government spending next year, what will lie before this country, to reverse a saying of Professor Galbraith, will be public affluence in a mass of private squalor. Those of us who have been behind the Iron Curtain know what that means—half finished buildings and people living at a miserable level of employment, or bogus employment near to unemployment.
  Therefore, I say that we should give the Government the benefit of the doubt. Nevertheless, far beyond what has been said in the Budget, there are four areas which should worry the House and the country. First, I doubt whether the Budget is fierce enough to bring home to ordinary people the depth of the economic crisis. Secondly, I doubt whether it is fierce enough to reassure people abroad who are lending us money.
  Perhaps there are two even more fundamental points. I doubt whether the Chancellor, the Treasury and the hon. Member for Greenwich have fully accepted the fact that taxation in all its senses at the present level of GDP, in spite of fiscal drag, has reached a point of no return. This is the most alarming fact facing us. I foresee that even at present rates companies will be unable to pay their tax next year. Individuals will find it difficult to pay their tax and those individuals who are self-employed will find it difficult to pay contributions to the insurance scheme for them, which is a form of taxation. Local authorities will find it extremely difficult to pay their bills and the ratepayers will find it almost impossible to pay the new imposts that will be put upon them.
  And this is when right hon. and hon. Gentlemen on the Labour benches talk about more taxation and taxing the rich. Even the proposals put forward for the new gift tax will in the first critical years raise less money than the old form of death duty. I see that, in the red, or pink, paper it is hoped to get as much money next year out of capital gains as was obtained last year! The situation which the House should most seriously consider is that the means of raising revenue have become almost exhausted.
  I turn to the most important question of all. I doubt whether the Chancellor yesterday, or any other finance Minister, has been bold enough in dealing with the

  475
  oil and petro—dollar crisis which is at the root of nearly all of our troubles today. It is all very well quoting Dr. Witteveen of the IMF or quoting one of the French Finance Ministers. But this situation is becoming worse and is now a shadow over the whole face of the Western, and indeed, the poverty-stricken areas of the world. Even domestically the proposals put forward by the right hon. Gentleman and his Government are questionable, especially in the state of the economy. To suggest that 51 per cent of oil in the North Sea should be run by a British Government who have not got two farthings to rub together is absurd. If one owns 51 per cent. of the oil, one has the obligation of finding 51 per cent. of the money necessary to get it out. That seems to me to be an absurd proposal and one which I hope will be changed.
  Next, although the Chancellor talked yesterday about saving and about waste, he failed altogether—so has his colleague at the Department of Energy—to put forward a massive programme of nuclear investment, which this country must have.
  But quite apart from what we in our own parish may be feeling, far more important is the international problem which faces the Western manufacturing Powers and the oil producers. I believe that we must now, on both sides, start facing reality. Unless we do, it will not be just economic disaster that the world will face. It could face an era of commotion, acts of war, seizures and revolution. Five million people unemployed in the United States, between 5 million and 10 million unemployed in Europe and 800 million people in the world starving because of lack of fertilisers derived from oil will not stand idly by for ever.
  Even the world's bankers and the central banks are now finding some slight problem in accepting the privilege of taking in billions in oil money at 11 per cent. or 12 per cent. for which they can find no possible use except in backing up their own tottering currencies.
  These things must be now faced, and faced at the highest level. What is needed is not just a conference but, I hope, an amicable confrontation to see how the interests of not only ourselves but also the oil rulers, sheikhs, kings and others
  476
  and the democratically elected rulers of the Western democracies can find a way of getting out of a predicament which can end only in disaster or war.
  The time is long past for the special dealings and the sort of privileged positions certain Europeans are trying to seek, such as the French. I believe that the time has come for the rallying of this country behind the much bolder policy being advocated by the American Government. The time has come for a major Western plan regarding oil consumption, oil substitution, and the banking and question of how the petro-dollar is to be dealt with.
  This is not a matter for finance Ministers or even Ministers of Power. There should be a major conference between the Prime Minister, leaders and heads of State of those nations concerned. Otherwise, the world could be now heading for irretrievable and irremediable disaster. There are forebodings plenty enough. One can read them in the latest EEC forecasts. One sees the threat of growing unemployment throughout the Western world. One sees how unstable is the Middle East today. It is not just in the bourses and the stock exchanges but in the factories, the farms and the paddy fields that the angel of death is abroad. Together, but only together, can the whole world stay his wings.
  6.25 p.m.
  Mr. A. E. P. Duffy: In a remarkable speech, the right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Fraser) has asked the House to set its discussion of the Budget Statement against the sombre background of world problems, an ill-fitted mechanism for food distribution and an equally ill-fitted financial mechanism for ordering nations' payments. He has reminded us of a rising temper on the part of the deprived peoples of the world and of an incipient conflict that we shall continue to ignore at our peril. The House may agree with me that he has uttered a timely warning. He has also displayed courage in commending the Budget Statement to his right hon. and hon. Friends.
  The right hon. Gentleman might have reminded some of his hon. Friends, especially those who differed from the Chancellor in his first Budget in March, of the Chancellor's starting point yesterday—an enormous balance of payments

  477
  deficit, which on current account is probably the highest in the Western world and certainly represents 5 per cent. of our gross domestic product. The Chancellor was quite right to give the highest priority to that and to urge us to devote increased resources to it. Yet the Chancellor knows that even if we do that for, say, the next two years, and if it is at a time when we experience normal growth, we could not expect at the same time any improvement in our living standards.
  Although the right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone was right to utter those warnings to us, we also need to remind ourselves that there is little evidence in our society of preparedness to make sacrifices and to undertake self-denial on behalf of our own economy's solvency or even on behalf, perhaps, of our economic salvation. We may be fortunate enough to experience some relief in falling import prices during the forecast period if a recession takes place in the Western world, but most of the effort and, therefore, the sacrifice must come from inside our own country.
  The Chancellor is therefore right, given the magnitude of the task that faces him, to set his sights on a fundamental reconstruction of our economy and on directing it towards an external equilibrium. Most of today's Press approves of this. It was significant that the headlines of the leading articles in The Times and the Financial Times expressed approval of the Chancellor's direction. His method, as he told us yesterday, is to undertake action which will increase exports and limit imports while keeping up domestic demand. I think we all know just how difficult a task he has set us, but we need to recall briefly the way in which he spelled out the steps he thinks we shall have to take in order to achieve those objectives.
  The Chancellor is giving priority to investment and exports. That means some improvement of company liquidity and more realistic pricing policies in the public sector in order to release resources. He is giving priority to measures against any further renewal of inflation—through, for example, the excessive growth in money supply—and to a more rational distribution and use of labour resources in order to increase productivity.
  The right hon. Gentleman said that all this can make for a change in the whole
  478
  climate of our economy and create the confidence without which we cannot evoke a sense of common effort and certainly without which we cannot evoke a sense of unity. He recognises, as do many of my hon. Friends, that that means harnessing the private sector as well as the public sector. Indeed, there is a duty on the Government to ensure that the private sector is alert and vigorous. It is necessary for us to remind ourselves occasionally that the private sector is responsible for 80 per cent. of manufacturing industry and is, therefore, a high priority for any Chancellor.
  If those are the Chancellor's economic priorities, he has not lost sight of his political conditions. He has had also to ensure that the burden that our enormous balance of payments deficit represents is shared more equitably—hence his redistributive measures. However, he accompanied those measures with two warnings: first that wage bargaining must be kept within the guidelines of the Trades Union Congress, and secondly that money supply growth must continue to be kept below the growth in the gross domestic product.
  May I, having followed the right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone and commended the Chancellor's Budget Statement thus far to the House, make two or three observations? It is sensible now to undertake those changes to the Price Code which the Chancellor announced, because we have had sufficient experience now to know of their limitations in tackling inflation in the absence of other measures.
  The Chancellor is also right to take the steps he announced towards energy conservation, but I hope he will bear in mind the warning of the Leader of the Liberal Party that such steps will almost certainly mean a shake-out of workers from the nationalised industries, and in the intermediate and development areas this will present problems of employment. Therefore, such steps must be associated with retraining programmes.
  That is not the end of the difficulties. Such steps towards energy conservation, including for example a rise in petrol prices, will almost certainly bring about an increase in the index of retail prices that will put a strain on the social contract. Yet wage earners as well as consumers, and not only Jack Jones, must now be aware that they cannot escape the

  479
  effects of the external developments on our national economy. I think that this explains why the TUC has already acknowledged the difficulties of the Chancellor and has given a welcome to his statement.
  The Chancellor may therefore feel entitled to claim that he has—
  "a sound foundation for that fundamental reconstruction of our economy …"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th November 1974; Vol. 881, c. 280.]
  I hope that he will not mind my expressing four or five reservations by way of conclusion.
  First, the Chancellor may have been too optimistic about export-led expansion. Has not our country recently suffered a latent loss of export competitiveness? I know that the figures announced last Monday showed an improvement in our terms of trade, but how sustainable are those figures in view of the increase in our export prices, and how far will those export prices continue to rise and how far will our import prices continue to fall, and therefore how far will the terms of trade continue to move in our favour?
  Secondly, has not the Chancellor been too optimistic about the balance of payments, relying on the inflow of capital and the expectations from North Sea oil? It will be a long time before I can rid my mind of the recollection of the right hon. Gentleman's reference to such expectations as perhaps amounting to a twentieth century equivalent of the South Sea Bubble when I hear even my right hon. Friend the Chancellor say that we can expect half the supply of our oil needs in three years. After so many false hopes that so many Members sitting here now have experienced in the last 10 years, I am tempted to make adjustments such as "A quarter of our oil supply in six years if we are lucky". How well would our balance of payments be standing up without those expectations, without that inflow of capital? How well would the exchange rate be standing up? How well will it continue to stand up once people think that there are grounds for discounting our North Sea oil expectations or once programmes begin to slip back?
  Thirdly, has not the Chancellor been too optimistic in thinking that the public sector financial deficit can be borne and
  480
  relieved without an even more dramatic shift of resources? Did he not lose a golden opportunity? Was not the nation buoyed up and even braced to see him get hold of all of us by the scruff of the neck? Were not the people prepared for a Crippsian-type Budget? Could he come back to the House in even a few weeks' time and capture that same mood again? Yet the next Budget is hardly more than a few weeks away.
  Fourthly, has not the Chancellor been too vague in budgeting for a very large public sector borrowing requirement without setting targets for public expenditure, notably by local authorities and through financing the deficits of the nationalised industries? That does not mean that I want cuts across the board—not at all. The Chancellor knows that I have appealed to him for extra resources to be allocated to local authorities for their deprived areas. I would prefer that to have been earmarked. That does not mean that cuts cannot be made elsewhere.
  In every one of the five wards in my constituency I have complete Labour representation and I have the closest contact with my councillors. The view that most of them hold is that there is tremendous scope for cutting back on local government spending. The Chancellor will probably say that we must await the White Paper on Public Expenditure later this year which will doubtless give us the information I seek. I wonder whether he did not neglect yesterday as an earlier opportunity on which to demonstrate that some spending plans have reached unsustainable levels.
  Finally, whatever our view about the precise thrust of budgetary policy, I hope that the House will agree with the right hon. Gentleman, myself and The Times and the Financial Times of today that the Chancellor has taken the right direction. Whether he has gone far enough to bring expenditure capacity, commitments and resources into balance only time will tell.
  However regrettable some of my hon. Friends may think is the Chancellor's failure to be more selective and to use instruments such as the National Enterprise Board, I hope they will accept that those instruments were not yet quite available to us, that, given the September fall in production, my right hon. Friend had a duty to seek the regeneration of industry

  481
  and that, given what is happening throughout Europe, especially in Germany of all countries, where unemployment is rising, he had a duty to take urgent steps to keep unemployment to a sustainable minimum.
  6.40 p.m.
  Sir John Hall: I am aware, Mr. Speaker, that many other hon. Members are waiting to catch your eye and I am also deeply conscious that I am a signatory of a motion, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor and Maidenhead (Dr. Glyn), along with other hon. Members on both sides of the House, calling upon you, with the consent of the House, to limit back-bench speeches to 15 minutes. I will, therefore, attempt to curtail my speech and conclude it within 15 minutes. I am sure that the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Duffy) will, therefore, forgive me if I do not take up his remarks.
  However I should like to pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Fraser) for his thoughtful speech, which took us beyond the confines of this Chamber to the worldwide problems facing us and the rest of the civilised world—something that we must never dismiss from our thoughts in considering economic subjects.
  My immediate reaction to the Budget Statement was summed up very well by the leader writer in The Times today, who expressed relief that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had turned from winning the election to a more realistic policy, but my relief was rather tempered by considerable alarm at the size of the public borrowing requirement. An increase from little more than £2,700 million to over £6,300 million in eight months is staggering and must be an all-time record for an increase in the public borrowing requirement.
  This will create a number of problems for the gilt-edged market. In so far as the borrowing will be met by overseas borrowing, remembering also that we have had no forecast of what the borrowing requirement might be in the next financial year, it looks as if the potential income and output of North Sea oil has been mortgaged for many years to come, if and when it arises.
  It worries me also that the borrowing is, in the main, designed to maintain
  482
  our present standard of living—to be used, in other words, for current needs—whereas the situation probably calls for a real reduction in the standard of living of between 6 and 10 per cent. I appreciate the difficulties of doing it but that is the sense of the situation we face today.
  We as a nation have been living beyond our means for many years. All Governments have been responsible for creating in the minds of the people an expectation that year by year the standard of living would go on increasing without any special or extra effort on their part. Now, I hope, we are beginning as a nation to realise that, if we are not prepared to make the necessary effort to maintain, much less expand, our standard of living, we just cannot expect overseas lenders to go on supporting us in the standard of living to which we have become accustomed as a nation.
  The Chancellor said yesterday that he could see no reason why this increase in borrowing requirement, swingeing as it is, should cause a pressure on resources, a further deterioration in the balance of payments, and a disproportionate increase in money supply. I hope that he was right. If he was wrong, Heaven help us and the resulting unemployed.
  I regret that the Chancellor, who has shown considerable courage in presenting a Budget not universally popular with his hon. Friends, should have thought it necessary to throw a bone to the Left wing by again reducing the level at which savings income—a more accurate term than "unearned income"—will bear surcharge. The idea that a savings income of £1,000-plus a year means that one is a wealthy person able to bear the surcharge is ridiculous and really not even worth consideration.
  For example, one of my constituents is a divorcée living on an income of £2,000 a year, which is taxable on the surcharge under this proposal. She cannot go out to work. She has to meet the mortgage on her house and she will be left with a very small income out of which she is expected to pay the surcharge on this so-called "investment income".
  The people receiving these sums of money on savings income are receiving less than the docker, the bummaree, the mineworker, the car worker, and certainly

  483
  far less than the average industrial wage. I hope that the Chancellor will think again about this. If he does not, I hope that we shall oppose him strongly.
  I want to refer to the tax treatment of woodlands—a small but not unimportant point. It would appear from the reaction of timber growers, and certainly of the Secretary of the Timber Growers' Association, that the capital transfer tax proposals in their present form would mean the end of private forestry in the United Kingdom. Yet we import timber to the extent of about £1,300 million a year, and one would have thought that the Chancellor, in his search for import substitution, would have done all possible to encourage people to grow more rather than less timber. I hope that he will reconsider this point.
  I welcome the right hon. Gentleman's determination to eliminate wasteful subsidies. It was a joy to me to listen to that phrase. He applied it in particular to energy, but the principle applies equally to many other subsidies, including food subsidies, which, I trust, he will phase out in time. Subsidies distort the economy, they are invariably wasteful and they are an inefficient way of helping those in need. If we want to help those most in need we can do it better through the introduction of negative income tax or the tax credit scheme which Mr. Anthony Barber intended to introduce.
  I hope that the Chancellor will also concentrate on his campaign for the prevention of waste and the recycling of all useful waste. He stressed the need to prevent waste of all kinds. It is one thing on which he himself might give a welcome lead.
  I also welcome the partial relief given to industry. I say "partial" because most of industry regards it as being insufficient. Nevertheless, it will help to ease the cash flow problems which industry faces.
  The House must not lose sight of the fact, however, that the device which the right hon. Gentleman has introduced of allowing companies to write down the value of their stock at the end of the year will still enable him to decide in any successive year to return to the old basis and, indeed, to tax the paper profit
  484
  created by inflation. All he has done is to postpone or roll over a potential tax liability. I hope that when he looks at the matter again for next year's Budget—assuming we do not have another one before then—he will be prepared to make this provision rather more permanent.
  The Chancellor's main concern has been to deal with inflation, with the very real difficulties facing industry constrained by Government-imposed restrictions and milked through higher taxation and enforced loans through advance corporation tax, and also with the related problems, without creating massive unemployment or causing widespread bankruptcies and complete, as opposed to partial, breakdown of the social contract.
  One method he has not used is the weapon of indexation, except by implication through the social contract. Last June, the National Institute of Economic Affairs proposed a mild and partial indexation in relation to wages only. It was an improvement on the threshold agreements, but, to be effective, indexation should apply across the board. It should not be confined to union members who have the strength to look after themselves, but should cover all forms of income and tax scales and social service benefits.
  Indexation, which is merely a means of increasing the number of units received to coincide approximately with the number of units one has to pay for goods and services, is not of itself a cure for inflation or a substitute for measures in this Budget and others which will have to be taken in the future, but it does take the fear out of inflation. It removes pressure for wage demands of the kind which are anticipating future inflation.
  It creates two main problems. The first is in exports, because if one is inflating at a higher rate than overseas competitors it creates problems in export markets, but all the time we are using the floating exchange rate that can be self-adjusting. Secondly, it does not safeguard past savings—but these are rapidly being destroyed now by increasing inflation. It can, however, safeguard future savings.
  We have already got some partially indexed savings, floated by the Conservative Government.
  The Paymaster General (Mr. Edmund Dell): When were they floated by the previous Government?
  Sir John Hall: There are various Government loans which are repaid with a premium which is tax free, and that is a form of indexation.
  It does not go anywhere near far enough and the Government are still being paid for the privilege of being loaned the money. I am sorry that the Chancellor did not see fit to introduce indexed savings schemes into the Budget. That would have helped a great deal. I do not want to go into the matter of indexation in detail because hon. Members here now know as much about it as I do, but it is one method the Chancellor should consider, especially when he has before him the report of the committee on inflation accounting. That system could be of great benefit and could even—who knows—preserve the social contract on which, I understand, the Government's whole strategy will depend.
  6.51 p.m.
  Mr. Terry Walker: During the debate on the March Budget my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer was accused by the Tories of presenting a Budget which was anti-industry and which, far from encouraging investment, positively discouraged it. No Conservative could say that about the present Budget. The Chancellor has done many things that the CBI wanted, to give an immediate cash boost to industry in order to maintain full employment this winter.
  We of the Labour Party have just fought an election campaign based on a manifesto which talked about taking a hand in industry. We said:
  "We shall not confine the extension of the public sector to loss-making and subsidised industries. We shall set up a National Enterprise Board to administer publicly-owned share-holdings; to extend public ownership into profitable manufacturing industry by acquisitions, partly or wholly, of individual firms; to stimulate investment; to create employment in areas of high unemployment; to encourage industrial democracy; to promote industrial efficiency; to increase exports and reduce our dependence on imports; to combat private monopoly; and to prevent British industries from passing into unacceptable foreign control."
  It is time we made a start on that manifesto. We must not leave it until later when things could very easily go wrong.
  486
  The principle of the National Enterprise Board must not vanish. There must be public accountability where public money is used. My fear is that Finance For Industry, or the investment bank or whatever it is called, will not secure the aims of our manifesto.
  We sincerely welcome the Chancellor's action on the proposed increase in pensions and family allowances and I pay particular tribute to him for the generous tax relief which was promised to the elderly and which will be well received by many.
  The news that the Chancellor will be introducing measures aimed at eliminating subsidies for energy supplies produced by the nationalised industries is most alarming. That will seriously strain the social contract. It will mean dearer coal, gas and electricity. I hope that the Conservative Members who cheered wildly yesterday when the announcement was made will not complain when electricity prices increase, as they surely must. I can remember when increases were proposed last July and there were grumblings from the Conservatives as well as from my hon. Friends.
  Mr. Tom Ellis: Some of us who have been employed in the nationalised industries believe that their efficiency and well-being have been seriously affected by the artificial pricing policies of the last few years.
  Mr. Walker: I hope that we will not go back on the manifesto promises concerning the nationalised industries. That is the point I was about to make. In the manifesto we said:
  "We do not accept the negative policies adopted by the previous Tory Government towards the nationalised industries. We shall restore to our public enterprises the assets and licences which the Tory Government took away from them, and will encourage and help them diversify into new industries."
  That is what I hope will happen, but I was extremely concerned at the prospect of these subsidies being cut off just at the time when restraint is needed. If coal, gas and electricity prices are increased by exorbitant amounts this will not only lead to demands for pay increases but will make pensions and family allowances appear small and insignificant.
  I think I probably misheard my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection when she

  487
  was referring to penalties for wage settlements outside the social contract. If what I thought I heard was correct, there are a number of questions we want answered in the reply to the debate tonight. Who will pay such penalties? Will it be the employee or the employer? If we are talking of penalties, have they been considered in the case of the chief officers in local government who have already had their rises?
  Many of us regret that there were no proposals in the Budget for a wealth tax. We realise that there are certain problems, but the Government must press ahead with this tax as quickly as possible. We must redistribute the wealth of the nation if we are to take advantage of the new spirit of co-operation which is now abroad in the country. Most people now believe that we must have government by consent rather than government by confrontation. At the heart of the matter lies the social contract, and that is
  "no mere paper agreement approved by politicians and trade unions. It is not concerned solely or even primarily with wages. It covers the whole range of national policies. It is the agreed basis upon which the Labour Party and the trade unions define their common purpose."
  That was what we said in our manifesto.
  Many of us also regret that it has not been possible to restore the savage cuts in public spending imposed about a year ago by the last Conservative Chancellor, Mr. Barber. That is why I found yesterday's speech by the Leader of the Opposition most incredible. He did not mention the terrible legacy and the appalling balance-of-payments deficit which the Government inherited last February. If by some mischance his party had been re-elected on 10th October, what would he have been saying to us now? Would he have repeated the proposition that was put about at the election concerning 9½ per cent. mortgages, the houses that would be built and so on?
  Would the right hon. Gentleman have been in as flamboyant a mood as he seemed to be during most of the General Election campaign, particularly when he came to Kingswood? He did not talk about policies. He upset some local residents because he went to Downend, in the heart of my constituency, where there were two pigs' heads, one marked "Harold" and the other marked
  488
  "Jeremy". I can only presume that one referred to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and the other to the Leader of the Liberal Party. The right hon. Gentleman inspected the two heads. That was clearly in bad taste. Now, his own head is on the platter—on the platter to the 1922 Committee. Most of the remarks he made in the Chamber yesterday were made to boost his own sagging fortunes within the Conservative Party. Perhaps he should have been turning to hon. Members behind him rather than addressing us on the Government benches.
  The right hon. Gentleman talked yesterday about wanting to create a Socialist State. What kind of State would the Leader of the Opposition really want to create? Would it be a divided nation, divided between rich and poor, between those who live in council houses and those who live in private houses? This seemed to be a great thing to the last Conservative Government. Far from uniting the nation they sought to divide it, and we have been left with the legacy from that.
  The policies of the minority Labour Government which preceded the present Government were intended to heal the wounds caused by the disastrous Industrial Relations Act and the disastrous Housing Finance Act, both of which sought to divide the nation. Indeed, the nation was seriously divided during the four years of the last Tory Government.
  It is now essential that we go forward in a united fashion to what lies ahead. We must do this by means of the genuine policies outlined in the Gracious Speech and in the Budget.
  With regard to investment in private industry, the money that is to be injected must be used on new plant and equipment and to protect the jobs of the workers over the long term. It must not be used by the whiz kids, the asset strippers and such who feather their own nests at the expense of the rest of the community.
  If that were to happen, could we seriously expect working people to face sacrifices to save capitalism which has failed? That question must be answered if faith in the working of Britain's democracy is to be maintained in the years to come.
  7.3 p.m.
  Mr. David Lane: I respect the hon. Member for Kingswood (Mr

  489
  Walker) so much as a fellow member of the Lords and Commons Cricket Club that I resist the temptation of taking up now a number of the points he made. I do not want to detain the House too long.
  We must ask whether the Budget measures up to the gravity of the national situation. Even allowing for the exceptional difficulty of the Chancellor's task, I fear that it does not. In its general effect it struck me as a business-as-usual Budget, but for Britain it cannot be business as usual now or indeed for some time ahead. People yesterday expected total frankness, but the Chancellor did not look the nation in the eye. People were ready for a clarion call, but they got a muffled mixture of sounds instead.
  I am glad that the Chancellor has shed some of his General Election complacency; but yesterday there was still a lack of candour as he was evasive at certain key points, and this lessened his total credibility. Some of the things in the Budget were good and courageous. It is therefore all the more a pity that the whole was not better, due to mistakes of omission and commission.
  I wish to look briefly at three of the Chancellor's own stated major objectives. The first concerns tackling inflation, which is the No. I worry of the public, as was clear on the doorsteps during the General Election. I do not quarrel with the Chancellor's realistic approach to nationalised industries' prices, but I wish it were accompanied by more realism over wages.
  The Chancellor stated:
  "The most important single factor in determining the rate of inflation will then be the rate at which earnings rise."—[OFFICIAL. REPORT, 12th November 1974; Vol 881, c. 249.]
  That has not been said often enough or loud enough by senior Ministers, and I hope that they have taken to heart the criticism in today's edition of The Guardian.
  So far as the social contract is concerned, the Government's attitude is a mixture of pussy-footing and pious hope. The crucial decisions to be taken by the miners this week are in the minds of us all, yet there has been scarcely a word of leadership or persuasion directed to the miners by any Cabinet Minister. This is further proof that over a large area of economic management the Govern
  490
  ment have abdicated to the TUC. If there is to be any chance of beating inflation, continuing price controls—which at present I support—must be matched by a fairer and more effective system of pay restraint than the social contract shows any sign of becoming.
  The Chancellor also said yesterday:
  "Our prime objective must be to make the best and fullest use of the human and material resources we have available."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th November 1974; Vol. 881, c. 253.]
  For human resources, I applaud the easing of tax burdens on elderly people. This was one of the two main grumbles which I heard on doorseps in Cambridge during the General Election. Many people said, "Tax bites too hard and it is not worth working"; this was particularly the complaint of widows.
  I am delighted that the Chancellor has taken action to help these people, but I wish that at the same time he had shown some awareness of the other main grumble that I heard. There was a feeling that all through society—among people of all ages, including the young—there was not enough incentive to work and too much incentive to slack and to take advantage of social security. Last night the Chancellor said on television that there would have to be hard work. Fine—he can go on saying that, so can we all. But today's climate is not encouraging people to work.
  We need a review of the whole structure of unemployment benefit and other social security benefits, because the present relativities are not right—
  Mr. John Tomlinson: Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that what he has just said is far more a critique of low pay than it is of generous rates of social security benefits?
  Mr. Lane: That comes into it, but the problem is wider.
  The development of the Welfare State is something of which we are all proud. We have heard this afternoon from the Secretary of State for Social Services about further advances. Abuses of the Welfare State are not widespread, but they are sufficient to cause serious concern. They certainly cause concern to my constituents, and there is scope for further tightening up. We must make it more worth while for people to work

  491
  rather than not work and here was a missed opportunity yesterday.
  There was also a missed opportunity over material resources, notably agriculture. It is still the case that Fred fiddles while our farmers burn.
  Thirdly, the Chancellor stated yesterday that we must mount a national campaign against waste wherever we can find it. I would say, "About time, too." We can no longer afford to be an extravagant, throw-away society. It is for the Government to give a lead, and so far their lead has been far too timid. We all look forward to what the Secretary of State for Energy is to say in a few weeks' time. It had better be bold, because the situation calls for boldness. Did the Government consider a 50 mph speed limit as well as an increase in the price of petrol? I hope that such a limit has not been ruled out as a possible additional way of saving imports if that proves necessary.
  In matters other than energy, too, it is the Government's job to give a lead and not to be satisfied until the energies of the whole nation are engaged in a new war against waste.
  I wish to touch on three other matters of particular constituency interest. First, concerning industry, what was announced by the Chancellor yesterday was courageous up to a point, but I echo the doubts expressed earlier this afternoon by my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Carr). In my constituency, employment is largely in small businesses, including shops. I doubt whether the relief will prove enough for them, and whether the Chancellor has yet shown enough evidence to remove the suspicion that this Government are biased against the small man.
  The Chancellor's measures will be of some help to bigger businesses, but will they sufficiently restore confidence? It is a great pity that the Chancellor did not take to its logical conclusion the Government's proclaimed aim of a vigorous and profitable private sector of industry by persuading his colleagues to drop some of their most irrelevant schemes. I have in mind particularly the proposals for North Sea oil and the extension of the frontiers of public ownership, on which the Secretary of State for Industry and others have set their hearts. Because of
  492
  this continuing obsession with nationalisation, the Government are still failing to carry conviction in their industrial policy as a whole.
  Secondly, the rates. Feeling in my constituency and the surroundinig area is very strong. That feeling is heightened by the indication in yesterday's speech that the ratepayer will be left to sink or swim, with no sign of a lifebelt from the Government. Of course, local authorities must be ruthless in economising and in postponing schemes, but, however successful they are, the prospective rises in rates under the present arrangements will be penal.
  I hope that Ministers will consider the special case of East Anglia and some other rural areas, and that this time they will correct the bias they showed earlier this year against those areas. Secondly, will they consider, as an ad hoc relief for this year, shifting on to the Exchequer more of the local expenditure, as we undertook in the General Election campaign that we should do? That must of course be a rough and ready measure until the new committee has reported.
  It may be asked how we are to find the extra revenue, as I think the hon. Member for Fife. Central (Mr. Hamilton) tried to ask at Question Time. For this purpose I should be willing if necessary, in order to relieve some of the acute burden on the ratepayers, to accept increases in taxation over and above those announced yesterday. I am no ascetic, but I should be content to see higher taxes on, for example, alcohol, tobacco and gambling. At this time, the psychological effect would be good; and one of the disappointments of the Budget will prove to be its inadequate total psychological effect.
  My third local point, which looks ahead to the Finance Bill, is an example of the wrong priorities that I fear we shall see yet again in the Bill. In this Session I must continue my running campaign with Treasury Ministers about the need to review the disincentive effect of the capital gains tax on landlords and landladies who let one or two rooms to students and others. The Treasury is being obstinate in this matter.
  It is more and more necessary that it should devise a common-sense amendment, but I expect that there will be no

  493
  sign of it when we debate the Bill. Instead, we shall devote time and energy to the proposed £10 million refund to the trade unions. Here, again, the Chancellor's TUC slip is showing. It is another example of bias. If the Government persist in that proposal, the Bill will leave a bad taste and all the Chancellor's calls for national unity will have a hollow ring.
  Although the Budget is good in parts, it is also a Budget of too many missed opportunities. The nation's full return to reality is being postponed, and it will be all the more painful when it happens. For the immediate future, there must be two watchwords more than any others—efficiency and economy. Not enough has been done by the Government so far to encourage either. I hope they will begin to put that right in 1975.
  Compared with the developing countries, we in Britain have much to be thankful for. Our problems are manageable. As Lord Robens said recently in a courageous speech, their solution lies entirely in our own hands, but it will require challenging leadership and absolute frankness. I fear that we shall have neither from the present Government.
  7.16 p.m.
  Mr. Denzil Davies: In the time available to me it is not possible to deal with all the major items of policy announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor in his Budget Statement. I hope, therefore, that my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Treasury Bench will not consider that I am being unduly critical when I confine my speech to two major reservations I have about the Budget.
  Apart from those reservations, I welcome my right hon. Friend's measures. I welcome the increase in old-age pensions and the increased family allowances, although I regret that it was not possible to extend them to the first child. I also welcome the Chancellor's help for industry, which he had to give, and the way in which he did it. I do not share the mistrust of some of my hon. Friends, because I believe that in the present situation he could not have provided this much-needed assistance in any other way.
  Some Conservative Members said yesterday that my right hon. Friend had not gone far enough, and that he should have given more than £1,500 million in assist
  494
  ance to industry. There is a duty on Opposition Members to tell the House where they would find the money to provide that extra amount. Would it come from increased taxation, from increased prices, from printing more money or from King Faisal?
  My first reservation concerns the Government's borrowing requirement. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor told us that as a consequence of his measures, mainly to help industry, it would rise by £800 million from £5,500 million to £6,300 million, an increase of almost 15 per cent. One does not have to be a stern and masochistic disciple of Adam Smith to be frightened by borrowings of that order.
  I fully appreciate that it might not have been possible to do anything about the £5,500 million. Sums in respect of that expenditure had already been committed. The decisions had been made. With the greatest respect to the Treasury Bench, however, I suggest that it should have been possible, if no more than as a gesture, to try to raise the extra £800 million by means of taxation even in the middle of a tax year rather than by increasing the borrowing requirement. [HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Possibly—Conservative Members may not cheer at this—a surcharge on incomes in excess of £3,000 would have gone some way towards raising the £800 million. It would not have affected the PAYE codings in any way. With perhaps a few exceptions a higher rate of VAT on luxury goods, such as the top rates of purchase tax which fell on certain goods, would not have been administratively complicated.
  Mr. John Biffen: If there must be an increase in taxation there are a number of voices within the Tory Party who suggest as a temporary measure that equity demands that the increase should fall on direct rather than on indirect taxes. However, I am alarmed that the hon. Gentleman should now be considering whether we should adopt the nauseating Western European system of having a multi-rate value added tax.
  Mr. Davies: I agree that equity demands that most increased taxation should fall on direct taxes. It might be asking too much to impose the whole £800 million on direct taxation. I was

  495
  not suggesting that we should have a multi-rate value added tax of the kind that some people have been advocating. I was saying that it should be possible to isolate those goods which used to fall within the top rate of purchase tax. I appreciate that there may be some exceptions, but we could impose upon certain goods a greater percentage of VAT than the present 8 per cent.
  Mr. Peter Rees: At the risk of sounding a little apart from my hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen), may I ask whether, with the advantage of hindsight, the hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) agrees that it was wrong to cut the rate of VAT from 10 per cent. to 8 per cent.?
  Mr. Davies: No, I would disagree with that. I do not think it was wrong. As I said at the time, I think my right hon. Friend should have recognised that some luxury goods should bear a higher rate of VAT than the 8 per cent. which has been established. Some of the £800 million could come from taxes and from consumer expenditure such as wines, spirits and tobacco. It would have been better to attempt to finance the extra 15 per cent. in that way rather than by increasing the borrowing requirement. Apart from anything else, that course would emphasise to people at home—and, possibly more important, to people abroad—the Government's determination to restore our finances to a sound and stable level.
  My other major reservation relates to the balance of payments. The right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Fraser) in a powerful speech dealt with this problem. The right hon. Member for Devon, North (Mr. Thorpe), the Leader of the Liberal Party, said that we had a floating exchange rate. I do not know how much of these matters the right hon. Gentleman understands. It seems to me that we do not have a floating exchange rate. We may have one in theory, but in practice one of the major constraints upon my right hon. Friend in taking action to avoid a serious recession is the need to defend the exchange rate of the pound—namely, to prevent it from falling too low so that our import prices become even higher.
  496
  We are concerned with all sorts of minutia but the central problem is the balance of payments deficit and the need to protect the level of the pound against any policy that may reduce its value. The balance of payments deficit this year will be approximately £3,500 million. Most of that will be made up by the cost of imported oil. It seems that we cannot continue to accumulate balance of payments deficits of that magnitude and expect British industry, even with the incentives for export which have been given, to be able to close the gap. To expect it to do so is unreasonable and unrealistic. It cannot and will not be done.
  My right hon. Friend has taken a decision, following the policy of his predecessor, to attempt to deal with the balance of payments deficit by borrowing heavily abroad. The fashionable phrase is "recycling petrol dollars". In plain language, all that that means is borrowing from the OPEC countries. The figures are enormous. It is suggested by some that by 1977 we might have accumulated a total balance of payments debt of approximately £14,000 million. If we suppose that we can borrow to cover that amount and that we pay an interest rate of 15 per cent., by 1977 we shall be paying out more than £2,000 million in interest on the borrowing of our accumulated debt. The £2,000 million will come to two-thirds of our present bill for petroleum imports.
  Yesterday the Chancellor said that by 1977 one-half of our oil needs will be supplied by the North Sea and that by 1980 we shall be exporting oil. That is a very attractive vision, but if our interest bill by 1977 comes to £2,000 million most of the benefit from our oil will disappear in interest payments. We shall be none the better off. The beneficiaries will be not the British people but the OPEC countries. We shall be substituting an oil debt for an interest debt. At the end of the day the money will still find its way into the coffers of the oil-exporting nations.
  It seems that we shall never solve our present problems until we take direct action on our petroleum imports. There is no other way of casting off the shackles imposed upon us by an international oil cartel. We must impose strict control on

  497
  the import of petroleum. I have advocated import controls in general, but I accept that there are arguments against taking such a course. Those arguments do not apply to imports of petroleum products. The only way that we shall put right our balance of payments is by strictly controlling such imports. In the short term that may be a painful course to take. Such control would inevitably mean rationing not only for the private motorist but on a priority and selectivity basis for industry.
  I do not make that suggestion in a cavalier fashion or without appreciating the bureaucratic difficulties which may arise as the result of such a policy. In my view there is no alternative which is less painful. If we try to ration by price we shall not be successful. I suppose there is the possibility of being marginally successful. In taking that course we should impose burdens on those least able to carry them.
  Faced with import controls on petroleum products, the OPEC countries might think again. We are faced with an oil cartel. What are we doing? We are supinely paying its prices and borrowing money from it to enable us to do so. It is an extraordinary situation. If we were to impose import controls, why should not other Western European countries follow our example? International action would force a wedge into the OPEC countries and might reduce the price of petroleum.
  We are now borrowing money and talking about recycling. It is a selfish policy. We are now able to pay high rates of interest, but India and the developing countries cannot afford to do so. There is no point in their trying to borrow money as they cannot pay the interest rates demanded. To join together and impose a policy of import controls would be the best way of reducing the price of petroleum and breaking what is now an international cartel.
  I urge the Government to be radical and to grasp this nettle. It will be a difficult policy to enforce and courage will be needed but, unless we tackle this central problem, whatever other measures are taken will not be effective. If we do not do this, my right hon. Friend will come to the Dispatch Box next April facing the same problems, and the options
  498
  and the weapons with which to deal with them will be even more limited.
  We must restrict imports of petroleum, otherwise we shall not be able to take the action which is necessary to avoid the recession which may soon be confronting the whole Western world I hope that the Treasury Bench will not be afraid to take this action so that we can avoid even more painful decisions in future.
  7.30 p.m.
  Mr. Julian Amery: The whole House should be grateful to the hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) for directing our attention to the balance of payments problem and to the horrendous borrowing requirement with which we are faced. The Chancellor began his speech yesterday with comments on the external deficit. He claimed, and I do not object to his claiming, that it had been reduced from £240 million a month to £90 million a month. It is only fair to add that Treasury estimates in the summer of 1973 indicated a similar figure in its forecasts and that Mr. Anthony Barber was not, perhaps, so far wrong as some of his critics have since suggested.
  The Chancellor told us a good deal of what he thought we should not do in dealing with the oil deficit, quoting at some length the views of Dr. Witteveen, but he did not have much to tell us about what he thought we should do. I am not sure that I agree with the hon. Member for Llanelli about the wisdom of import controls or rationing or anything of that sort at this stage. The essence of the problem is this. I am not sure that we shall be able to secure an early reduction in petroleum prices. What we have to seek to do is persuade the oil producers to channel a large part of their surplus earnings not into short-term money as they do today but into medium-or long-term money.
  There are various ways of approaching the problem. If the consumer countries could agree together to bring down interest rates proportionately, that would not only help liquidity problems of companies at home but would also encourage the oil producers to take greater risks. No one will invest in equities yielding a low rate of interest if he can get a high rate of interest with the security of a Government loan.

  499
  Another possibility would be to try to set up a proper European monetary system. The Foreign Secretary has said that he does not understand what is meant by European monetary union. I am not sure whether he is being naïve or whether this is a ploy—I rather think the latter—but the elements of a European monetary system are there. If we could put together the hard currency reserves of Germany and Holland, the gold in public and private hands, assuming revaluation of gold, which exists in Italy and France, and our own oil prospects, we could put together a monetary system which would be at least as strong as the dollar.
  In the spring of 1973 the Leader of the Opposition and the then German Chancellor came near to agreeing a pooling of reserves. The need for this seems even greater today; but the Chancellor has seriously restricted his room for manœuvre in any operation to deal with the surplus earnings of the oil producers by the enormous borrowing requirement which he has incurred. It may not greatly or directly affect the money supply, but we are putting ourselves in the hands of our creditors on a scale unprecedented in Britain and only comparable to what the Empress Dowager of China or the Khedive of Egypt did in the last century.
  The other day, walking down the street, I saw some men hanging in a cradle suspended by ropes from the roof, painting a house. I thought "This is exactly the position that we are in today." We are doing our work, carrying on business as usual, but the other end of the rope is in the hands of our creditors, the oil producers, and if they let go, whether from panic or from malevolence, the crash could be very uncomfortable.
  I thought that the Chancellor showed some complacency in telling us that we should not worry too much about this increase in the borrowing requirement. It seems to me very serious indeed. My right hon. Friend the Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Fraser) underlined some of the consequences which could flow from it.
  I think that the country expected the Budget to produce some answers to the twin dangers of inflation and recession that face us. When I watched the Chancellor on the BBC last night the impres
  500
  sion that I had formed during our debate yesterday was only reinforced because the whole emphasis in his speech on the television was on unemployment and the danger of unemployment. In so far as he referred to inflation, it was only as a possible cause of unemployment.
  Unemployment and inflation are two terrible social scourges. We went through unemployment in a big way between the wars. I believe that we may be going to suffer a scourge of inflation far worse in the next year or two than we have so far experienced. They are both scourges with a material and a psychological impact. There is the agony of not having work to do, there is equally the uncertainty that follows from the inability to make ends meet. The psychological cost is difficult to measure—the cost of the fear of unemployment and the bewilderment of people who cannot make plans because they do not know what their earnings, their pensions, their rents or any other of the financial factors on which they base themselves will be tomorrow.
  Of course it is easier to identify unemployment, because it can be seen whether someone is in work or out of work. The number concerned, even at the height of the depression between the wars is, when we are talking in millions, relatively limited. Inflation, on the other hand, is all-pervading. It is like tobacco or alcohol—it affects all those who are touched by it: a little does not do one much harm, a bit more does, according to one's constitution, and too much kills. It hurts some more than others.
  It would be a conservative estimate to say that there are 10 million people suffering acutely from the evils of inflation today—retired people, people on fixed incomes, self-employed people who have found it impossible to maintain their standard of living of a year or two ago, and a great many more who are finding it very difficult to maintain even minimal standards.
  Although I do not blame the Chancellor for this—Lord Hailsham was right the other day to say that politicians must not be judged entirely on the way in which they express themselves—I wish that he had shown a clearer recognition of the evils of inflation as well as of those of unemployment. He seemed to concentrate his remarks on television on an effort to reassure what I might call the "new

  501
  rich", those trade unionists who, by virtue of their strong organisation, have got themselves good wages, which could only be imperilled by unemployment. He was forgetting the "new poor", people whose living standards have been fearfully cut into by the inflation that we have suffered so far.
  In this context, while I would not wish, having said what I have about inflation, to be thought to be advocating additional Government expenditure, I, too, am sorry that it was not possible to include the first child in the increase in family allowances. Perhaps I will be allowed a word of filial piety here. My father was one of Eleanor Rathbone's chief supporters in introducing family allowances, and it is a matter of historical fact that they were then bitterly opposed by the trade union movement and the Labour Party.
  I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Stafford and Stone that the Chancellor has not given a major twist to the inflationary spiral, but he has not produced a counter-inflationary policy either. He is relying, on the one hand, on stable prices—that is a gamble—and, on the other hand, on the social contract. The events of the last few weeks have shown that the rats have got at the parchment of the social contract to a considerable extent. There is not a choice between inflation and unemployment. Beyond a certain point inflation begets unemployment.
  We had a blinding flash of recognition of this in what the Chancellor said yesterday:
  "… if wages rise beyond the limits set by the TUC, the Government will be compelled to take offsetting steps to curtail demand. And the effects on the financial position of the company sector are bound to lead to unemployment."—[OFFICIAL. REPORT, 12th November 1974; Vol. 881, c. 249.]
  That is pure "Joseph". Indeed, it goes beyond the Preston speech made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph). It is a Damascene conversion. One might almost call it a Benni-Yusuf antithesis. It is saying to the trade unions, "We will give you Benn—and nationalisation if you keep the social contract. If not we give you Joseph and my right hon. Friend's Preston speech."
  The tragedy is that the Chancellor is denying himself the middle way, which
  502
  is to adopt an incomes policy which would match the prices policy in which he persists. By that I mean an incomes policy that is mild and flexible, on the basis of indexation. This would be close to the guidelines of the TUC and is also recommended by Professor Milton Friedman, the high priest of the monetary school. The right hon. Gentleman has limited his freedom for manoeuvre in the fight against inflation and as an alternative to the social contract.
  The other issue on which the public want reassurance is what the Government intend to do about the growing recession which threatens to become as important as, though it is partly a by-product of, the inflationary crisis. Here, there is at last a recognition in the mind of the Government, though perhaps not yet in the mind of all their supporters, of the vital importance of the private sector. The private sector is the wealth-creating element on which everything—the Government machine, the social services and the nationalised industries—depends. That has been recognised in words by the Chancellor but not yet in deeds.
  It is one thing to help companies with their liquidity problems, but that does not, in itself, make the private sector vigorous or profitable. It is a palliative, it keeps the private sector's head above water, but it will not be a great encouragement to new investment. Capital is a timid creature. I do not think that there will be any new investment to speak of in the 12 months ahead. People forget that such new investment as there was this year was the direct result of the enormous increase in the investment intention recorded in the last quarter of 1973, most of which was cancelled, but some of which went on. With present policy guidelines, we shall not get that investment in 1975 or after. We shall not get much new investment till we have a new approach from the Labour Party to the problem of profit.
  We have to recognise, as the Swedish Social Democrats have recognised, that we want to aim at the highest possible pre-tax profits. Only profits can produce a dividend that will attract fresh capital from the market. Only high profits will produce new machinery. Only high profits will pay high wages and produce the revenue out of which social services

  503
  are financed. Of course, today, in the inflationary crisis, there has to be restraint all round, including restraint on profits. That would be accepted by the private sector if it could see the light at the end of the tunnel, and if it felt that the Chancellor was committed to a high profit and high wage policy when the situation becomes steadier.
  But the Budget is overhung by the Labour Party Manifesto and the Queen's Speech. High taxation, yes. There would be an acceptance of high taxation as a means of fighting inflation, but not as a deliberate means of exploiting the crisis to redistribute wealth.
  Whatever else we may think about it, whatever we may like to do in easier times, the capital transfer tax proposed and the wealth tax foreshadowed cannot possibly encourage investment. Of course there is a good side to it. Able men, like all of us in the House, have down the centuries been encouraged to slave away to build up estates or businesses for our descendants—to work hard, to be abstemious so as to be efficient and to be chaste so as to be respectable and so creditworthy; and a damned bore it has been, but we felt that we had an obligation to do it. Now, the Chancellor of the Exchequer comes along as a liberator and produces a taxation system which makes it impossible to build up an estate or a business. No doubt hedonists and epicureans everywhere will say "What a splendid man", but it does not help investment, and it does not encourage anyone to work for the future.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Sir J. Hall) talked about woodlands. That is an extreme example. To put an 80 per cent. capital transfer tax on woodlands is misummer madness. It takes a generation or more to grow trees. No one grows trees for himself. A man is tempted to grow trees only for a future generation. The Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary, who both farm fairly broad acres in Sussex, might do well to consult their neighbouring woodsmen to see whether the tax is right.
  While deliberate steps to redistribute wealth in the present crisis will deter investment, the nationalisation programme will prevent it.
  504
  I will say a word first on direct nationalisation. Already more than 30 per cent. of the economy is under Government control. Nationalisation of oil, development land, the aircraft industry and shipbuilding will increase the proportion considerably. It is not the specific increase of particular sectors that matters most. What matters is that as we get from 30 per cent. towards 40 per cent. and 50 per cent. the whole climate of the economy changes. There is a multiplier effect in nationalisation and, as Government influence increases, so private enterprise is inhibited.
  The aircraft industry, which is perhaps the one I know most about, is a clear example of that. The great aircraft firms that are to be taken over place hundreds of sub-contracts with small firms all over the country, particularly in the Midlands. Those small firms are completely private. Up to now the aircraft industry has been much under the influence of Government, who are its main customers. Now if the nationalisation programme goes through, sub-contractors will find that they are to a large extent dependent on government.
  At least, where the direct nationalisation programme is concerned the public know its exact limit—namely aircraft, shipbuilding and so on, but the National Enterprise Board is quite another story.
  Wisely, the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not stress the NEB, but he renewed his commitment to it on at least three occasions in his speech. The NEB hangs like a cloud over the whole private sector. Are declining firms which are doing badly liable to be taken over? If so, nobody will come in and lend a helping or rescuing hand. Private enterprise will keep well clear of them. Are prosperous firms likely to be taken over, as the Secretary of State for Industry has suggested? If so, people will be chary of putting capital into them.
  There will be no renewal of confidence unless the Government are prepared to abandon, or at least postpone, nationalisation both direct and indirect. They have to learn, as the Swedish Social Democrats learned, to separate economic and social policy—to let private enterprise maximise profits, and then to argue about how those profits should be distributed.

  505
  This brings me to a political conclusion. I cannot help feeling that the Chancellor's room for manoeuvre was narrowly restricted because our present party alignment and the economic system on which the country is based are on a collision course. The Times on Monday wrote:
  "At the political level Mr. Healey is fundamentally up against a central question of contemporary political economy. Are the minimum conditions on which capital is able to participate in the economic process compatible with the minimum conditions on which labour is willing to participate?"
  There are two views about what labour is willing to do—Mr. Gormley's and Mr. McGahey's view, but it is fair to say that the wealth-creating sector of the country, the private sector, will not play its part if full-blooded Socialist policies, including nationalisation and the NEB, are pursued.
  There are two courses open to the Government. They could try, as the New Statesman and the Tribune propose, to take over the investors' role—to take over the banks and the institutions. This would lead to a British version of what happens behind the Iron Curtain. In effect we should be joining COMECON but without a referendum and certainly "without the wholehearted consent of the British people". The Government would not get that consent.
  If there is one thing I fear more than nationalisation it is the backlash that will be stirred up among the 60 per cent. of the anti-Socialist voters if they wake up to the fact that there is an attempt to lead them to that kind of Socialism by the back door. I urge the Government not to underrate the potenial resistance of that 60 per cent. They will have been much encouraged to resist by the £10 million refund to the trade unions and the treatment of the Clay Cross disqualified councillors.
  Most of us in this House—and, I believe, a majority of Labour Members—believe in a mixed economy. It has worked well. It can be made to work well again. It is clear to most of us, as we come closer to the problem, that a policy of nationalisation will divide the country at home and wreck confidence abroad. The only hope lies in rallying all who believe in a mixed economy to support policies of national unity.
  506
  This means in the first place the postponement of nationalisation and then being prepared if necessary to match a prices policy with some kind of wages policy, be it only indexation. This will call for some realignment of forces in this House. It will mean that this Government or any other Government will have to act as a Government of national unity. What is more important is that it will have to be supported by a majority for national unity in this House. I am not one to venture a forecast, but I should not be surprised if we were to be near to that moment by the time the Chancellor opens his next Budget.
  Several Hon. Members rose—
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. George Thomas): Before I call the next speaker, may I remind the House that the time that remains for back bench contributions is one hour and five minutes. There are nine hon. Members who have indicated their desire to speak. I hope that some self-discipline will be exercised.
  7.56 p.m.
  Mr. John Tomlinson: I shall try to confine myself to within the time limit observed by the right hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery), and I hope he will understand if I do not take up the points which he sought to emphasise.
  I wish to associate myself with the remarks made by my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) on the public borrowing requirement. I am disappointed in this Budget that we have not tried to raise the extra £800 million public borrowing requirement by taxation. There are two reasons for making this point. First, we are in grave danger of mortgaging even more of our future than we have already done. My second reason for regretting the way in which the position has been handled is that we have not fully brought home to the majority of people the exact nature of the economic crisis.
  We have heard a great deal about the balance of payments. I regret the somewhat complacent use of the words "non-oil deficit". It seems to indicate that somehow, because we have a non-oil deficit, we need not bother about the oil deficit. The fact remains that we have a balance of payments deficit of

  507
  £4,000 million. That is the important figure to remember whether it relates to an oil deficit or a non-oil deficit. The fact is that we shall have to meet the consequence of the two portions of the deficit and we must look at the total situation which the nation faces.
  I am not happy when there is constant reference to the reduction of our non-oil deficit. The non-oil deficit reduction has been a major consequence of the reduction in the value of our currency. Secondly, we must also remember the importance of the increasing value of export prices and the reduction of import prices. This has nothing to do with any staggering improvement in our manufacturing efficiency or capacity. By trying to differentiate between the two and suggesting that the non-oil deficit is an improvement when that improvement is largely due to external factors minimises the importance of the nation's situation.
  In the Budget we are also in danger of over-stating the claims of what political judgments can do. On the most charitable interpretation, what we are doing in the Budget is creating a programme in which 635 Members of Parliament are having to resolve our problems. We must not claim too much for budgetary measures. We are in danger of overstating their effect. We are seeking to create parameters by which the people outside the House will have to face the present situation
  That leads me to the major problem. The Government have rightly taken major steps to improve investment in industry, but that does not alter what is at present the major fact of the inadequacy of the use of existing investment in British industry. It is not just a matter of finding more and more investment but involves the use we make of investment. The major problem is under-utilisation of investment, which in turn is largely responsible for the reluctance of people to invest further. It is not merely a question of the Government producing money.
  One can take all kinds of examples, but what concerns me principally is the industrial relations aspect of the present situation. It is nonsense to talk about our need for increased productivity and to say that without it we shall not get the incentive for more investment if at the same time we build structures of low pay
  508
  into our industrial organisation. Low pay of itself is one of the greatest inhibiting factors to improvements in productivity, and the consequences of low pay in employment have to be overcome. That is why I disagree with the hon. Member for Cambridge (Mr. Lane) when he talks about the disincentive effects of the levels of social security benefits. It is a criticism of the levels of pay in employment, not of the over-generous attitude of the State in relation to social security benefits.
  It is for that reason that I criticise Opposition Members who talk about the indexation of wages. All that this process does is to freeze existing inequalities in direct relationship to others, and the relative nature of poverty remains unchanged. For that reason we must have major discrimination in our approach to wages and employment in favour of the low-income groups.
  The reality of the social contract means that the £30-a-week minimum wage has to be achieved, and achieved in such a way as to avoid a general push upwards to maintain existing levels of differentials. Until we get out of this cycle of low pay creating a situation in industry where people are forced, because of their low rate of pay for 40 hours, to restrict output and so create overtime in order to get a living wage, we shall not make effective use of our existing industrial investment let alone any further industrial investment which will be coming. The need is there, and it must be accepted as a major challenge when we look at industrial relations problems. I look forward to our discussions on the Employment Protection Bill and other measures which are to be introduced by this Government.
  In the brief time available to me I wish to refer to two or three other relatively minor matters. In this Budget we have an increase in the rate of VAT on petrol. This is logical only if it has the effect of reducing the consumption of petrol. If it has that effect, I urge my right hon. and hon. Friends to look at a number of consequential decisions in relation to other aspects of public expenditure.
  There is no point in trying to ration the consumption of petrol and at the same time to allow predetermined patterns of public expenditure to continue. If we try to cut down the consumption

  509
  of petrol, it is nonsense to allow the interurban motorway programme to continue. We talk about restraining energy consumption generally. We have our priorities upside down if we spend £2 million a mile building new motorways which encourage people to consume fuel when we deny public resources to rural railway lines which are the most energy-conserving form of public transport. Another consideration is that in building inter-urban motorways we are ripping out agricultural land which could assist the import-saving process of which agriculture should be a vital part.
  I turn next to the £10 million which is to be repaid to the trade unions. I support my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer in bringing back this matter before the House. In the debate on the last Finance Bill, the right hon. Member for Carshalton (Mr. Carr) said that it was never his intention to penalise the benevolent fund activities of trade unions and that he had gone out of his way to try to create mechanisms by which the £10 million would not be taken. The trade unions should not be penalised for the right hon. Gentleman's incompetent drafting. What he wanted to do was not done. We should not attempt to regard that as a reason for penalising the benevolent funds of trade unions. I hope that the House will accept the repayment of the £10 million which it was never the intention of the then Secretary of State to take into the Exchequer. The right hon. Gentleman should have the courtesy to admit that his mechanism was wrong, and I hope that he will support the present Government in remedying the deficiency for which he is responsible.
  I want finally to refer to the nationalised industry pricing policy and to energy conservation. I am a little distressed to see that a major item in the Budget which could create a clear impression of the gravity of the crisis we face is not quantified properly. The announcement of the effect of the pricing policy is deferred to some time next year. I should have preferred to know the effect of the policy now. However, I appreciate the reason why there must be delay.
  We have to consider where the consequences of my right hon. Friend's statement will fall. I hope that, before
  510
  the exact effect is announced, an opportunity will be taken to consider a pricing policy in reverse of the pricing policy of the nationalised industries today. We are trying to conserve energy. We have everyone demanding of us that efforts are made to do so. I hope that, between now and the announcement next year, there will be some attempt to discriminate in favour of small users, to make the marginal costs of electricity more expensive rather than cheaper, and to provide a clear incentive to save coal, gas and electricity. I hope to see the Government make the marginal costs more expensive rather than encouraging the profligate use of these fuels, as the present pricing structure does.
  I welcome the measures in the Budget. There are a number of areas where there is no difference between my thinking and that of my right hon. and hon. Friends. I hope they will accept that it is only in the interest of conserving time that I do not refer to such matters as pensions and family allowances.
  My main regret is that the Budget has not brought home to the people the detailed nature of the economic crisis that we face. I should have preferred to see a more immediate impact on the individual member of society. I should have preferred to see measures which he would feel more personally in terms of the price he was expected to pay as his contribution to the solution of the economic crisis, even acknowledging that it would lower his living standards.
  As I said in my opening remarks, I should have preferred to see the increased borrowing requirement financed directly by taxation. The effect of that would have brought home the gravity of the crisis more effectively to the individual member of society.
  8.8 p.m.
  Mr. Nigel Lawson: I wish that I had time to deal with a number of the speeches to which we have listened so far. In view of your request for brevity, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I say only that I am happy to find myself in agreement with a great deal of what the hon. Member for Meriden (Mr. Tomlinson) said, although he may not be as pleased to find me agreeing with him.

  511
  This has been a somewhat sombre debate—more sombre even than an out-of-season Budget normally warrants. I am reminded of some lines of Thomas Hood:
  "No warmth, no cheerfulness, no healthful ease,
  No comfortable feel in any member—
  No shade, no shine, no butterflies, no bees, No fruits, no flowers, no leaves, no birds—
  November!"
  I do not blame the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the absence of butterflies and bees. But he is not a man who, by his record in high office, inspires a great deal of confidence on either side of this House.
  I make no complaint about the fact that yesterday's Budget amounted to a total repudiation of the economic measures introduced in July. Those measures were, as many of us realised, a cynical inflationary pre-election bribe, and they needed to be repudiated. I am glad that they have been and that a number of us, at least, voted against those measures at the time.
  But it is impossible to draw a veil over the stark contrast between yesterday's Budget Statement and the Chancellor's Statement last March. At that time the right hon. Gentleman prefaced his measures with these words:
  "This does not mean that we can afford a public sector borrowing requirement at anything like the level of last year. The vast deficit of the public sector was then an important factor in the excessive monetary expansion. So I am aiming at a massive reduction in the public sector's borrowing requirement of about £1,500 million compared with 1973–74."
  The right hon. Gentleman then announced his proposed measures, and concluded by saying:
  "Thus the effect of my proposals is to reduce the public sector borrowing requirement by £700 million and to bring it down to a little over £2,700 million this year. I have thus achieved"
  —and the House will note the complacent use of the past tense—
  "the target I set myself—a reduction of £1,500 million on the figure of over £4,250 million for 1973–74."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th March 1974; Vol. 870, c. 295–327.]
  In fact, as was revealed in yesterday's Budget Statement, this year's borrowing requirement, so far from having been reduced to £2,700 million, has, on the Chancellor's own admission, been increased to the horrendous level of £6,300
  512
  million, a considerably larger increase than the £800 million to which the hon. Member for Meriden referred, although I know the figure that he had in mind when he said that. This is not merely far and away the largest borrowing requirement that this country has ever known, but an increase of more than £2,000 million is the largest therefore that we have ever known in any one year.
  As recently as last July—a mere four months ago—the Chancellor of the Exchequer accused his predecessor, Mr. Barber, of "profligate irresponsibility" in allowing the borrowing requirement to reach £4,250 million. If that was profligate irresponsibility, £6,300 million is sheer Weimarism, and there is no running away from that.
  What unexpected event, what unforeseen turn of fate, can have been responsible for so vast a discrepancy between the borrowing requirement which the Chancellor forecast and said he had achieved for 1974–75, and what is now admitted to be the reality? The simple fact is that at a time of rapid inflation, particularly of wages, the effect on the public sector—where prices have been held down or no prices are levied—has been to push it further and further into deficit. What a surprise. Who could possibly have thought, and how could the Chancellor have imagined that this would happen? After all, it does not say anything about it in the social contract.
  We are now told by the Chancellor that the size of the borrowing requirement is not important. The right hon. Gentleman's predecessor's smaller borrowing requirement was highly inflationary, but now a much larger one will not, so we are led to believe, lead to any inflation, since it will not be financed by any undue increase in the money supply.
  I want to be fair to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I always try to be fair to the right hon. Gentleman. It is true that the sudden emergence of a vast oil deficit on the balance of payments—and I accept the point about the danger of distinguishing between the oil and the non-oil deficit—poses special problems and imposes a special strain not only on the balance of payments but on the borrowing requirement, and it is reasonable to aim, in the short run, at meeting this oil deficit by borrowing the bulk of the money from the oil producers themselves.

  513
  But the total amount of the oil deficit—even assuming that the distinction is valid—is £2,500 million, and even if all of this is borrowed abroad long term, on a cast-iron basis—which is a big assumption indeed, and we have heard well-founded fears about being pawns in the hands of the oil producing countries—there remains the best part of £4,000 million of the borrowing requirement to be financed.
  How can we assume that the bulk of this can be met by genuine borrowing—above all, given the totally demoralised state of the gilt-edged market and the threat, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Carr) said, that the huge flood of Government paper required to finance the Labour Party's nationalisation proposals will be landed on the gilt-edged market? The answer is that we have no reason for any confidence that the vast borrowing requirement which the Chancellor has presented can be financed in a non-inflationary way—I wish that it could, but we can have no confidence that it will be—and every reason to believe that it will prove highly inflationary, as large borrowing requirements have in the past.
  If the Chancellor wishes to set those fears at rest, let him announce in this debate—and stick to it—a clear and unequivocal target for the expansion of the money supply. The right hon. Gentleman's solitary promise in his Budget Statement that the money supply will not increase faster than the rate of inflation, whatever that may rise to, is worse than useless.
  The Chancellor told the House that he intends to get the borrowing requirement down in future, by a tighter control of public spending in general—although not tight enough if 2¾ per cent. per annum in real terms over the next four years is to be stuck to—and by the elimination of subsidies to the nationalised industries in particular. I make no complaint that all that will mean a lower standard of services than we would like and higher prices all round in the nationalised industries. If we want to conquer inflation, and if we are serious about it, there is no other way. I welcome the Chancellor's conversion to the fundamental truth that we cannot conquer inflation by artificially holding down prices. I wish
  514
  that the right hon. Gentleman would draw the attention of his colleagues to that important discovery.
  My complaint is quite different. It is that we have heard all these good intentions before. Let us consider the nationalised industries' deficits. In his March Budget Statement, the Chancellor thundered on about how appalling it was that his predecessor had allowed the subsidies of the nationalised industries to rise to £800 million and that he intended, as a first step, to bring them down to £500 million.
  "We could not"—
  —the right hon. Gentleman said—
  "allow the existing state of affairs to go on. Costs had to be reflected more closely in prices. There is no other way of avoiding a heavy excess of demand for the products concerned, the uneconomic use of resources, the collapse of all financial disciplines, and an unacceptable level of support by the Government."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th March 1974; Vol. 570, c. 300.]
  To that I say "Hear, hear".
  Yet what has actually happened? With his tail between his legs, the Chancellor was forced to come to the House yesterday and confess that, so far from having brought the deficit in the nationalised industries down to £500 million this year, he has allowed it to rise to more than £1,000 million. What credence can the House place on the right hon. Gentleman's promise made yesterday?
  Nor is it merely the Chancellor's track record that inspires nothing but the deepest scepticism. The plain fact of the matter is that, of all the proposals announced yesterday, far and away the most important were his intentions for public spending in general and the nationalised industries in particular. Yet in the whole of his speech, lasting for more than an hour and a half, there was not one reference to the size of the spending cuts to be made, when they would be made, or how they would be allocated. Nor was there even one reference to the amount by which subsidies in the nationalised industries are to be reduced, by how much prices are to be allowed to rise, and when this will happen.
  After the débâcle, and it was a débâcle, of last March we shall believe that the Chancellor has trodden the path, of virtue when we find him at the other

  515
  end of it. So far all he has done is surreptitiously to point to the signpost. I said that I want to be fair to the right hon. Gentleman. Let me conclude by singling out the two unequivocally good features of this Budget.
  Mr. Brian Sedgemore: I am fascinated by the hon. Gentleman's discourse. Perhaps he will tell me whether I am right or wrong, but listening to him it seemed that he was saying that he wants this large deficit reduced and that the only way that the Chancellor can do it is by running the economy with more spare capacity than it has at the moment. Would he be prepared to say how much spare capacity he would like to allow and perhaps express that in terms of unemployment?
  Mr. Lawson: I hope that the hon. Member for Meriden (Mr. Tomlinson) can explain to his hon. Friend the Memmer for Luton, West (Mr. Sedgemore) the fallacies in that intervention. The way to deal with the deficit of the public sector is either by increasing taxation or cutting public spending. It has nothing to do with spare capacity in the economy. But fear not, I shall come to the point about the amount of spare capacity or otherwise in the economy in a moment.
  Let me first mention the two unequivocally good features in the Budget. The first is that in its conception, its vocabulary and in its approach to the economy, yesterday's Budget bore no resemblance whatever to the speech made by the Secretary of State for Industry in the debate on the Address last week. This is certainly a strong point in its favour. There appears to be something of a regeneration gap yawning on the Labour benches. The wider the gap gets the better as far as I am concerned.
  The second encouraging feature of the Budget speech was something which has already been referred to by the Leader of the Liberal Party and my right hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery). This is the Chancellor's warning which is worth quoting once again that:
  "if wages rise beyond the limits set by the TUC, the Government will be compelled to take offsetting steps to curtail demand. And the effects on the financial position of the com-
  516
  pany sector are bound to lead to unemployment, as Mr. Jack Jones pointed out in a powerful speech the other day."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th November 1974; Vol. 881, c. 249–250.]
  Many commentators apart from the Leader of the Liberal Party and my right hon. Friend have singled this out as the most important passage in the entire speech. I sincerely hope for my part that they are right although it must be added that elsewhere in the Budget speech, and notably in other pronouncements made by the Prime Minister, the creation of unemployment is treated as the unmentionable, ominously like devaluation was treated during the period of the previous Labour Government.
  Also on the plus side there was the rather coy statement to much the same effect, which we heard in the debate today from the Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection, when she suggested that there might be tighter price control on those firms that allowed very large wage increases—which would lead to lay-offs and unemployment. I do not think that this is the right way to do it, but it is an interesting and important change in the Government's thinking.
  This is the crux of the matter. If it is the case, as I believe it to be, that, in the Prime Minister's words, fighting inflation is a matter of national survival, then it follows not merely that every other objective of economic policy must be subordinated to this one end but also that we must be prepared to accept that there will be casualties before the battle is won.
  We cannot fight any war without casualties, however much we may seek to keep the casualties to a minimum. To accuse those who point out the dangers of this of actually wanting to see increased unemployment is as contemptible as accusing those who point out the dangers inherent in waging war of actually wanting to see casualties on the field of battle. This goes to the heart of the so-called social contract.
  The chances of the social contract succeeding in helping to beat inflation are scarcely encouraging, as recent events have abundantly demonstrated, in Scotland as well as in England. There are a number of powerful reasons why this should be so. For one thing, the concessions which the Government make

  517
  under the contract are to the trade union movement as a whole whereas the mechanism of wage inflation is the competitive struggle between autonomous unions. There is, thus, a fundamental flaw running through the whole concept of the social contract.
  Mr. Tomlinson: Would the hon. Gentleman not agree that the social contract has far more chance of working if people like him use their undoubted abilities to promote the ideas in it rather than continually knocking it in the hope that it will fail?
  Mr. Lawson: If the hon. Member will be patient he will see that as I come to the end of my remarks I intend to say how the social contract can be helped to succeed. I hope that he will agree with me when I come to that point.
  Again, the Government are constantly being urged, as their part of the bargain, to undertake policies or commitments which would make the curbing of inflation utterly impossible. Let us not forget that it was in an explicit attempt to win the support of the TUC that the previous Conservative Government embarked on the excessively expansionist economic policy which led to their downfall. There is only one social contract, I believe, that can possibly make sense or meet the needs of the economic situation in which as a nation we find ourselves. This is understanding with the trade unions that the maintenance of full employment, which we all want, must necessarily be conditional on moderate and responsible trade union behaviour.
  In other words, full employment cannot be an absolute commitment. It must be an objective, but an absolute commitment, come hell or high water, it cannot be. What is the alternative? The alternative implied in the proposition that in the short term full employment will be maintained come hell or high water, irrespective of trade union behaviour, is the handing over to the trade unions of effective control of the monetary printing press. It is to condemn the people of this country to ever-accelerating inflation, with all that that implies in social and political as well as purely economic terms.
  The social contract can work only on the basis of fear—fear that if the trade unions do not carry out their side of the bargain the Government will still follow
  518
  the path of economic rectitude and, as a consequence, be obliged to permit unemployment to rise. This is what I believe the Chancellor was saying in that key passage in his speech yesterday. There is, morever, a further point. For this to work the fear in the minds of trade union leaders at all levels, not just national, has to be greater than the fear in the minds of Ministers about the political consequences for the Government of allowing unemployment to rise.
  It is because in the past the balance of fear has been tilted the other way, because the fear in the minds of successive Governments of unemployment has been greater than the fear of unemployment in the minds of the trade unions—and for no other reason—that sound anti-inflationary economic policies have been abandoned time and again. I recognise that this may seem a tactless, harsh, even unfeeling doctrine to be putting forward. But the time for comfortable wishful thinking is long past. I merely ask Labour Members to ask themselves not just which is worse, unemployment or inflation—because at the end of the day if we go on as we are we shall get both—but also which is worse, the fear of unemployment or unemployment itself—which will assuredly come on a massive scale if nothing is done to check the current inflation.
  The more the present Government seek to assure the unions and the people of the country as a whole that they will in no circumstances tolerate any significant increase in unemployment, the more certain it will become that the social contract, on which the Government are pinning all their hopes, will fail. By contrast, the more explicit the Government become in warning—as the Chancellor did in that key passage, the importance of which I hope that we shall hear underlined by the Minister tonight—that breaching of the social contract will inexorably lead to measures which in turn will result in higher unemployment, the greater is the chance of the social contract succeeding and of inflation abating.
  To put it with brutal frankness, fear is our only hope. The sooner the Government collectively and explicitly recognise that and spell it out, the better it will be for us all.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Myer Galpern): Order. I understand that an appeal has already been made to right hon. and hon. Members for brevity in speeches. I shall reinforce that appeal, particularly as the closing speeches will probably start at about nine o'clock.
  8.30 p.m.
  Mr. Tom Ellis: In response to your appeal, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I shall be very brief. Because of that, what I have to say will be very generalised. I should have liked to follow up the remarks made by the hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson) about the absolute importance of unemployment as some kind of mandate on the people of this country and to go into the application of that kind of policy and philosophy in relation to our present system of parliamentary democracy. However, I shall resist the temptation.
  I want to make only one main point. It is a platitude to say that we are in an economic crisis. We have all said it umpteen times. Despite what the Leader of the Opposition said in his accusations against hon. Members on the Government side of the House about not making the point clear, we have repeatedly spoken about living above our means, tightening our belts and so on. The trouble is that that kind of thing is only words. They are easy to say and we can keep on saying them until the crash finally comes. The great danger is that we shall stop saying those words only when the crash has come and when it is too late.
  The time-span for us could be very short indeed before we reach the crash. Therefore, it seems that the Budget must be judged primarily on psychological grounds, on its impact on the people of this country and not on the 635 hon. Members of this House, about whom my hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mr. Tomlinson) spoke.
  How much does the Budget contribute towards making us in reality live within our means as a nation? The problem can be approached in two ways. One can set out to increase one's means or one can set out to lower one's standard of living. The prospect of the first way has become perilously near impossible, and certainly impracticable in any meaningful sense in the short term. We have not got much time. For example, the whole question of increasing our investment has
  520
  become a perennial problem. It has been with us certainly since the war and we are a long way from solving it. I do not see how we shall very quickly solve it in the near future.
  The Budget can be regarded in some ways as almost a rescue action. The cash flow problem, for example, is so acute in many industries that many firms are in serious danger of collapse. I visited two factories at the weekend, in different businesses. In both of them I was shocked to see how far below capacity they were working. One was working for a fortnight in every three weeks. Although that is not typical, it is certainly symptomatic of a desperately serious position. Therefore, to that extent the Budget is somewhat of a rescue action. Yet some of my hon. Friends are criticising, for example, the attempts to provide funds to ease this cash flow problem.
  In principle I, too, am against the particular proposal because it is an artificial sort of thing with which to approach the problem. I should have thought that it would be applicable only in the case of an emergency, such as that which faces us at present. In the short term, however, we must accept it. I am all for the National Enterprise Board—and not simply as a slogan but as something with which we can develop the whole structure of our publicly-owned industries. In the meantime, whatever our ideological beliefs, we must realise that we are trying to mount a desperate rescue action within the existing system of a mixed economy. Therefore the only practicable way, if it is practicable, is to hold down our standards of living.
  It is here that the Budget judgment will be tested by time. How far should the Budget have attempted to drive home to us that words simply are not enough and that we are facing a desperately dangerous situation? We in Britain are peculiarly vulnerable, psychologically as well as in material terms. Our tradition is not particularly helpful at present. Our tradition is that of being the workshop of the world, of being the great imperial Power, of being one of the richest nations. All those things have gone. We cannot get used to it.
  Speaking as a Welshman I am rather surprised occasionally to see the great nation of England, a nation which over

  521
  the centuries has gone out conquering and colonishing the world, venturing and innovating, suddenly become almost frightened simply to venture into an association with our friends in Europe. The tremendous psychological trauma that has happened to the nation astounds me as a Welshman.
  I believe that we—speaking now as a Briton—need a salutary shock. This is the psychological moment for it. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Meriden in being disappointed in that the Budget did not provide that salutary shock. I know that the Chancellor tried to balance the pressures from the ordinary people for an ever-increasing standard of living—pressures which are summed up in the phrase "trade union pressures" against the pressures of the economic realities of the world and of the system in which we live. It could be argued that the Budget is a question of how far my right hon. Friend could chance his arm without wrecking that delicate plant, the social contract.
  I think that at this psychological moment the Chancellor could have gone much further than he has gone. In The Times this morning Peter Jay used a rather apt metaphor when he said that we were marvelling at the Chancellor on the high wire act which he was treading so carefully and were all wondering how far he could go along it. Peter Jay asked what—perish the thought—if there were no high wire and what if it were a myth—that is, what if the Chancellor were trying to reconcile the irreconcilable? If that is so, we are in a frightful situation because it would mean that we are out of control.
  I cannot believe that. I shall continue not to believe it only if the Chancellor in the Budget sets out to shock us into realising that it is self-discipline in a comparatively laterally-structured society—and not the authoritarianism, of which the hon. Member for Blaby spoke, that unemployment would bring upon us—that will see us through. It is in that context that I am very disappointed.
  The public borrowing requirement has been spoken about, particularly the pricing policies of our public industries. For many years I worked in a nationalised industry. Over the years I have been very saddened to see how that industry was
  522
  done serious harm and rendered less and less efficient because of the political influence in respect of wages and prices, very often by unsympathetic Governments.
  This is bringing us in a sense almost full circle back to the old last century sliding scale when the miners' wage was tied to the selling price of coal and, therefore, when one considered costs one thought only of lowering wages rather than of increasing efficiency and productivity. It is in that sense that the interventionism practised by successive Governments on the pricing structure of my industry and of other nationalised industries worked seriously to the detriment of the industry concerned.
  That kind of policy is not only working its way through one or two industries but is having a considerable effect in producing a lack of economic discipline in the whole of our economic life and wellbeing. It is in that sense that I am sorry that my right hon. Friend has not made use of this psychological moment to impose a shock great enough to bring us to a realisation of the situation facing the country.
  8.40 p.m.
  Mr. Nicholas Ridley: I much agree with most of what the hon. Member for Wrexham (Mr. Ellis) said. The hon. Gentleman asked why it was that the English had apparently lost their verve. Could it conceivably be because Scotland and Wales have made it extremely likely that we will from time to time have Labour Governments? If the Scots and the Welsh would like to leave us to our own devices we might be free of the threats of nationalisation and Socialism which have so inhibited the economy of the country in past decades.
  I welcome the income tax allowance for the aged. I believe that it is a possible way forward in modifying our tax structure that we should look at the allowance side of income tax and make sure that such allowances really fit the bill of those who need them in the future.
  Secondly, the Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection really cannot be such a nanny, such a fussy busybody with her Price Code. What she is doing is totally incomprehensible and pointless economically. She would do better to scrap the code. It would save

  523
  the time of many civil servants, a lot of taxpayers money, and might even help to restore the liquidity of industry. The nannying bureaucracy that it represents just does harm.
  Thirdly, there is the question of inflation and the effect of the Budget upon it. The right hon. Lady claimed that inflation was now running at 8·75 per cent. annually. I do not know if that is true, but I think that she is right in the sense that it has come down considerably from the end of last year, when it was in the high 'teens. It is curious that during this period, the price of oil has risen astronomically, as have the prices of many raw materials and many wages. Just at the time when our costs overseas and our wages at home have been going up fastest, so we have had a deceleration of inflation.
  When the right hon. Lady was asked to forecast the future rate of inflation she talked about whether the price of oil, and the prices of other commodities or wages were to go up in future, but from the right hon. Lady's own claim that inflation is now at 8·75 per cent. it must be clear that it has nothing to do with the price of oil, nor with the cost of wages, nor anything else. Inflation has diminished because of the measures of 17th December 1973, when money supply was stamped on by Mr. Anthony Barber and reduced to zero growth. That is the reason why inflation is reducing, if it is reducing.
  What of the future? The future will depend on whether this Budget increases the money supply in due time or not, and the money supply has already started to go up. I suspect that the effects of the Budget will in a year or less be greatly to increase the money supply.
  We have to borrow £6·3 billion, a sum so astronomical as to make the debates in the 1960s about the £800 million deficit seem child's play. In so far as the whole of this debt is taken up by the Arabs, the oil producers, there will be no increase in money supply, but if I were an Arab I would prefer to invest in equities or North Sea oil or buy up property companies. It is clear that in times of inflation such as lie ahead these will be the better investments for Arab money, and if the Arabs invest in that
  524
  way it will cause further inflation because it will not be taking up the Government's debt but will be going straight into the private sector.
  I heard at Question Time today that we have a gipsy advisory officer. I am tempted to think of the Paymaster-General as a sheik advisory officer. He has gone round trying to persuade them to buy all these gilts, but an American has been doing the same thing, and the probability is that the vast bulk of the money will go into American Government debt. To the extent that we fail to borrow this money we shall cause massive increased inflation.
  Let us assume that we succeed in borrowing it all from the oil States. This year the amount is £6·3 billion and that is in a Budget which is far from reflationary. Perhaps the next Budget in December, if that is when it will be, will be reflationary and it will be up to a higher rate. Within four years we might be running a deficit of £10 billion or £12 billion. That could mean that we would owe about 100 billion dollars before the oil ever began to nay off, because we would have borrowed mostly in dollars and we should have to repay with our own depreciated currency against the dollar. That is something so terrifying that I invite the House seriously to consider whether we should risk it.
  I can make my next remark because I do not think there is a representative of the Scottish National Party in the Chamber—
  Mr. Gordon Wilson: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Myer Galpern): Order. The hon. Member is, strictly speaking, outside the House.
  Mr. Ridley: If the hon. Member for Dundee, East (Mr. Wilson) hears what I say I am sure that he will not do anything about it, but suppose that he and his colleagues demand the golden egg even though they have not laid it. Suppose they were to take it so that we were left with the mortgage and they with the oil. Alternatively, suppose everyone round the world were to find oil and that the price, were to fall dramatically. We should have mortgaged an asset which turned out to be worth a great deal less than was first thought. Suppose that at

  525
  some stage the oil-producing countries wished to see how their enormous investment was being managed, and suppose they decided to put a manager in Britain and start doing the Budget themselves, creating the unemployment which the Chancellor so dreads. Do we want to run the risks of being managed by outsiders? To those who have strong feelings about handing our sovereignty over to Brussels I would say that the risk of handing it over to Abu Dhabi is infinitely greater and is infinitely more to be feared. I am sorry that my hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry (Mr. Biffen) is shaking his head in disagreement with me, but perhaps it is just as well that we are not all seen to be together in this belief.
  We cannot continue to bank on a gamble as reckless as this. If the Arabs do not buy the gilts we have inflation, and if they do we have the risks I have outlined. The effect will be cumulative and will worsen. For the cost of abandoning food subsidies, electricity subsidies, council house subsidies and putting an extra bit on cigarettes, spirits and wine we could begin to get back out of this position. Some hon. Members on the Government side have said that they expected higher tax of one form or another. Certainly people expected higher taxes, as was evidenced by queues, some of a hundred yards long, outside wine shops yesterday morning. I am suggesting extra taxation—not something Draconian or severe—even it it does cause unemployment.
  That would, perhaps, be a smaller price to pay than would be the ghastly alternatives. If it is said by the Labour Party that it is politically impossible to cut the deficit, the £6·3 million, which will grow and accumulate in the years ahead, it is saying that we cannot as a nation accept any reduction in our standard of living, no matter how grave the crisis facing us.
  It seems that we are saying as a House of Commons, as a Parliament, that we have not the courage and the ability to communicate to the people both the gravity of the crisis facing us and the necessity to take measures which might result in high taxation and lower Government spending, as well as some increase in unemployment. We have not the courage to tell the people that, and so we are going to let them go on over the brink.
  526
  If I come to a criticism of the Budget, it is that although the Government have resisted temptations tog o in the wrong directions in certain respects, and I congratulate them on that they have failed to take that little extra bit from the standard of living—the only way that we shall convince the people that the situation is as serious as it is. They have failed to convince the people of the risk of either domination by foreign capital or inflation of a sort that is horrible to contemplate. Such fates must be a hundred times worse than the cure that has been put forward frequently by my hon. Friends and myself, and which must now be recognised as deserving of serious attention from all quarters of the House.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman who is to make the concluding speech for the Government this evening has kindly agreed to postpone the start of his speech by five minutes in order to accommodate as many back benchers as possible. In my view, we could squeeze in another two speakers in the meantime, and I hope that I shall have the co-operation of all hon. Members towards achieving that end.
  8.54 p.m.
  Mr. Edwin Wainwright: I am greatly surprised at the despondency shown by a number of hon. Members in the debate. One would think that this great nation of ours was on its beam ends. We are suffering difficulties, but there are many difficulties that we can overcome as long as we first of all appreciate what those difficulties are. We appear to be criticising one another's policies regardless of both the present situation and the future.
  This is a rather moderate Budget. Indeed, it is far too moderate to achieve what the nation deserves. Why? In the first place my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer was looking behind, realising that whatever he did there would be some criticism of his action, and he was also looking in front, realising that he would be criticised for not doing enough. Although my right hon. Friend has done more than hon. Members expected, there is still criticism that he is not doing enough. We do not realise that we have the capacity and ingenuity to overcome the present difficulties. We are not willing to utilise sufficiently the tremendous capacity of our people.

  527
  Those who want more return from their investments think that the Government are not doing enough. People behind the Government think that the Government are not doing enough. Ultimately we must regenerate our people's determination to produce the wealth that they are capable of producing.
  When I see many of my constituents living at a very low standard, people whose home life is deplorable, I compare it with the high standard of living of people on a higher income scale, who are greedy and selfish and determined to have more. The hon. Member for Barkston Ash (Mr. Alison) is smiling. He knows that people whom he tried to help attain a better standard of life are still living at a low standard.
  What is the matter with our nation? Are we afraid to use our ingenuity? Do we not realise that we have to compete with other nations and that investment is very important? Do we not understand the importance of education? Do we think only about profits and wages? We do not take advantage of means of increasing our production. Why do we not use more automation and introduce sophisticated machinery? Do we instead sit back and think about what we should have because we are making certain investments?
  Do we take into account the lack of efficiency on our managerial side? When we create redundancy, we do not think enough about training the people concerned for other jobs. Our redundancy benefits are far below those of our continental competitors.
  Who is to blame for the present situation—the trade unions or management? I think that it is management, although I do not always support the trade unions, because there are many things they fail to do. Why does not management do more about the situation? It is because it does not realise what it means for the nation to produce more per individual.
  Our rate of production is lagging behind that of the Continent and the United States. The United States uses two and a half times the horse-power per individual that is used in this country. On the Continent, one and a half times more horse-power per individual is detection novel. New bits of evidence used. Who is to blame for that? Is the
  528
  trade union movement to blame? Of course not. The people who are to blame are those who have run British industry for decades. Of course, we must take into account the occasional interruptions caused by a Labour Government.
  Unless we produce more wealth, we cannot give our people the things we wish to give them. In my constituency I see people who are housebound. We cannot afford, for example, to put a ramp in the home of a person who has had his legs removed and who is 75 years of age. For six weeks the person I have in mind has been sitting on a settee, yet we cannot afford to put in a ramp so that a disabled person's chair can be taken into his home. Who is to blame? Is that the responsibility of the trade union movement or management? Is it the fault of Government or of society as a whole?
  The Budget has not faced the issues. It has merely tried to appease. It should have gone further. What worries me more than anything else is that we never give consideration to retraining. We never take fully into account what will happen when redundancy occurs. We never take full advantage of technology and science. We let other nations set the pace. This country still has a tremendous ability to create wealth yet it allows other nations to take advantage of its ingenuity, its science and its technology.
  It is no good blaming previous Governments. It is time that the trade union movement, together with management, woke up to the difficult problem with which we are faced. We can produce the wealth and create the benefits for our people. Those are the objectives that we should have uppermost in mind. In spite of the Budget's weaknesses I believe that it is a tremendous march forward. I hope that it will be accepted. I hope that we can go forward with it and perhaps improve upon it.
  9.3 p.m.
  Mr. David Howell: In a very fine speech my right hon. Friend the Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Fraser) rightly reminded us of the turbulent international background against which our domestic discussions take place. He referred to the Budget as a mystery Budget. He rightly said that new clues kept on turning up rather as in a crime and new pieces of the jigsaw turn up day

  529
  after day. They often cast an entirely new light on what has gone before and, indeed, on what was said on day one, which was yesterday.
  We have had from the Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection, with her consultative document, some interesting new lines and shades on what was said yesterday. The biggest piece of the jigsaw is still missing. In that sense my right hon. Friend was right in calling this a half-way and half-truth Budget. The whole area of public expenditure remains a vague and obscure fog of generalities. It is apparent that we shall have to wait for a projection on expenditure, and to that extent we cannot see the complete Budget in the literal sense of the word. Perhaps we too easily fall into the traditional habit of regarding the Budget as only a revenue matter.
  In a sense, the Chancellor has gone along with that. We have had the revenue part of it, plus lots of bits and pieces thrown in. But the expenditure side remains obscure, except for one thing. We know that we have hanging over us the most colossal borrowing requirement of £6,300 million, sitting there like a great potential avalanche of snow at the top of a mountain over our community, creaking and groaning and ready to come down if, as my hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) reminded us, we fail to flog enough Government debt to the Arabs.
  This is an uncomfortable and uncertain situation, and the House is right to demand that we are given a fuller picture day by day of the real situation, the other half of the Budget, so that we know what danger we are really in. We have a right to be worried at the bland assurances of the Chancellor that this can all somehow be managed with a turn of the hand, without an undue increase in the money supply, and to demand more fact and more detail to underpin his bravado.
  A related aspect on which there has been a good deal of study by the Chancellor and the Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection is that of nationalised industry prices. I wholly welcome the trenchant terms in which the Chancellor referred to this subject. He said some remarkable things, and it is worth going over them again. He said:
  "In general we must reduce and eventually remove subsidies of all kinds which distort
  530
  the relative cost of different forms of energy, and which stimulate wasteful consumption."
  Excellent. He also said that his aim was
  … to adjust prices to reflect real costs"
  and:
  "… I have set it as my objective to phase out these subsidies completely as fast as possible."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th November 1974; Vol. 881, cc. 255, 256, 268.]
  Mr. Edwin Wainwright: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind the fact that in the 1950s and early 1960s the price of coal was kept well below what it was on the Continent to ensure that this country's industries could have cheap fuel, and that if this had not been done the Coal Board would be in a better financial situation than it is at present?
  Mr. Howell: I will bear that piece of history in mind, although I am not sure that it relates to the subject. Perhaps it does—perhaps that is where the seeds of the present difficulties were planted. But we are now talking about a situation which the Chancellor has said forthrightly that he intends to correct as soon as possible.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson) is right to issue the warning that these are fine words whose like we have heard before—not perhaps quite so often or so definitely from a Socialist Chancellor, but we have heard such views before. Even as he spoke, however, we noticed that these were the words of yesterday, and today the right hon. Lady has come along with her document and today it has all become a little more genteel, a little more a case of "not in front of the children".
  Today, we read in paragraph 19 of the consultative document that
  "In deciding what price increases should be made"—
  by the nationalised industries—
  "it will be necessary for Ministers to strike a balance between restoration of the industries to profitability and the need to keep down the rate of increase in prices to the consumer."
  There, of course, are the weasel words. There is the loophole through which one can double back to the place we started from. That is how the Chancellor's trenchant words can dissolve away into meaningless generalities and we can end up no further forward.
  But this is not the time, nationally or in this House, for being churlish and I

  531
  welcome at least the indication. I believe that the Chancellor is right, and I believe also—I say this as much to my hon. Friends as to hon. Members opposite—that this time we must bite the bullet. This time we must face the fact that it means considerable rises in prices and we must not back-track. We must not fall into that classic habit of the politician of stating a generality, a fine aim, hand on heart, and then, when the details come along, cavilling at it and back-tracking and saying that it cannot be done. This time the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in this area, is right.
  The question naturally followed—it was raised by several of my hon. Friends—that if that is the new regime for artificial subsidies for nationalised industries, particularly energy, why not for food subsidies? The right hon. Lady tried to meet that argument, but in doing so she became a little confused.
  First, the right hon. Lady tried in an endearing way to help the Chancellor get off the 8.4 per cent. hook, and I admired her for it, but she did not succeed and he remains firmly impaled on it. The right hon. Lady went on to deal with food subsidies. She argued that nationalised industry subsidies should be phased out, but food subsidies were different. She said that the nationalised industry subsidies were prime subsidies, whatever that means. I suppose that phrase comes out of an economics textbook. It means little to me.
  The right hon. Lady said, for instance, that the electricity subsidy applied to everyone equally. Everyone knows that domestic electricity users get a far bigger dollop of subsidy than do industrial and commercial users. Furthermore, the argument of equality applies equally to food subsidies. The right hon. Lady went on to say that richer people are bigger consumers of electricity and get more benefit from the subsidy, but that is also true of food subsidies.
  I do not follow the right hon. Lady's arguments. No such arguments exist, except the argument that for the time being various requirements of the internal politics of the Labour Party demand that she takes this line while the Chancellor is allowed his tougher noises on nationalised industry prices. As my hon.
  532
  Friend the Member for Blaby warned us, we shall see when the actions take place, and then we shall believe. In the meantime, at least the sounds are striking the right note.
  The second aspect on which I should like to avoid being churlish and critical is that part of the Chancellor's speech which was concerned with the financial sector and financial mechanisms. It is worth pausing to ponder on the remarkable change. It is unusual for the Labour Party and Labour politicians to be concerned with that part of economic life. Usually these matters are dismissed as not being a useful aspect of the economy. References to them are usually greeted with ritual noises and with hissing and bristling about whiz-kids and wonder boys. Little good is said about this aspect from the Labour Front Bench. It is something to be thankful for—a small mercy—that suddenly an intelligent interest is being taken by the Labour Front Bench in the need to reform, improve and strengthen the financial sector and financial mechanisms.
  It was remarkable to hear the Chancellor say last night on television that we had the most efficient and reliable banking system in the world. He should have some praise for going that far. The Labour Party has for far too long been unprepared to understand the financial sector and for far too long has been ready at even a mention of the Stock Exchange or the capital market to make grunts that would have delighted the late Professor Pavlov.
  We have come a little way. Now that we have gone this far and the Chancellor has moved in this direction, I shall spend my last few minutes leading the Chancellor a few steps further into the world of financial reality in talking about the financial facts of life in suitably delicate phrases.
  Before doing that, there is one more myth that we must overcome, the myth that there is a difference between making money and earning money. It is the cliché of the hour, the Prime Minister uses it three times a day and it is utterly meaningless. In the early days of the 1964 Labour Government there was a cliché about the candy-floss economy. It was candy-floss versus steam engines in those days.

  533
  The concept now appears to be "making money" versus "earning money", as though there were some difference between the two. Yet in the Chancellor's mind, if not in the minds of his colleagues, there is a dawning realisation that the raising of savings and the channelling to industry of those savings and investing them intelligently is a crucial part of the mixed economy. It is as essential a part and as useful for productive purposes as are all the other matters which trill off Labour Ministers' tongues. It is as crucial to the work of a mixed economy, with or without a large State sector, as are all the heroic Socialist ideas of productive industry and useful employment. It is an essential aspect and is ignored at the Government's peril and the peril of the banking system.
  A great deal of attention is focused on the financial sector. We hear people say that there are too many able brains in the financial sector in the business of making money. It is worth the Labour Front Bench asking why? They should apply their minds to the question: why has so much talent and ability been attracted into that sector and not enough into the industrial and manufacturing sector? I believe the answer is that industrial executives and young management executives cannot build up savings. If that concept is changed and it is made possible to accumulate and build up savings in the industrial sector and in manufacturing industries, one will increase powerfully the incentive for people of ability to go into manufacturing. The first myth to be broken is the one which has been so frequently paraded—namely, that the making of money is bad and is a part of the economy with which the Government will have nothing to do, and that the earning of money is fine and that it is a pity there is not more.
  Secondly, I should like to turn to finance, about which there has been a great deal of talk. There is a widespread belief that we now have a bottleneck in finance for investment and the CBI industrial survey, showing the rapid increase in the number of firms concerned in credit and finance, to some extent confirms this view. The Chancellor believes this, as presumably does the Secretary of State for Trade.
  There is a view on the Labour back-benches—[HON. MEMBERS: "Where
  534
  are they?"] We have rather more troops on our side than does the Chancellor. There is a view among Labour Members that the State can step in and write the cheques. It is not simply a matter of ungumming one particular channel of finance for industry, for there are three main sources of finance for industry, all of which are to some extent blocked. There is long-term finance, the equities and the retained profits; there is medium-term funded loans, the bond market; and there are revolving bank facilities.
  I plead with the Chancellor and his colleagues to get away from the facile idea that one can deal with only one of these sources. That is not so. The truth is that all three sources of finance must be flowing freely. They are not interchangeable. It is no good unblocking only one source. It is no good expecting the banks to be cajoled into intense long-term investment. There is no need to import institutional gadgetry from overseas to meet the problems in the three separate sources of finance.
  There is a view that somehow the banks are less forthcoming and more cautious than are the banks in Tokyo or New York in helping industry to get going and to finance venture capital. There is not very much evidence of that.
  As for the bond market, it is flat on its face and obviously should be revived. It may be that the Finance for Industry mechanism can do this, but again it is important to realise that the funds will not come from thin air. Nor will they come from the taxpayer. The only way in which funds can be mobilised without appalling inflationary risks is from savers and investors, not from taxpayers. That is why the Chancellor of the Exchequer has to give far more attention than he has in his Budget to another missing element in the jigsaw, and that is the revival of savings.
  The right hon. Gentleman must overcome his apparent aversion to savings and give more attention to reviving the process of savings. If he does not, all the setting up of new sources of finance through FFI will come to nothing. That is why my right hon. and hon. Friends are right to deplore the lack of interest in the Budget in the saver and in reviving savings. The only item really affecting savings is the rather mean lowering of the savings income surcharge—I prefer to

  535
  call it that rather than the investment surcharge—which the Chancellor of the Exchequer regards as being so important. In his Budget statement, the right hon. Gentleman made a judgment on the matter which I found rather distasteful. His implication was that it was generally agreed that investment or savings income should bear a much higher level of tax than earned income. He said that as though it was generally to be assumed. I think that the time is coming when it may not be so generally assumed and when people may feel that income from savings, especially those of the smaller saver, deserves equal treatment with income from earnings.
  As for the equity capital flow, obviously we require a healthy capital market. The FFI plan cannot help here. The essence is profits and profitability. Profits mean jobs, and that is the central point which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has to get over to his colleagues.
  Again and again today, my right hon. and hon. Friends, like people outside this House, have pointed out that even if the right hon. Gentleman's measures—the new valuation for stocks and the changes in the Price Code—bring more funds back into industry they cannot by their nature change the longer-term situation, which is one where profitability is virtually impossible.
  We are talking about a situation in which for the past 12 months inflation has been running at the rate of 17·1 per cent.—the right hon. Lady had a lower figure—and in which interest on borrowed capital is about 16 per cent. In these circumstances, changes in the Price Code which say that anyone with a return on capital lower than 10 per cent. is free of the Price Code restrictions do not come within points of the minimum amount needed to make investment which will have a serious return.
  The provision in paragraph 16 of the right hon. Lady's consultative document falls so far short of the basic needs to make a profitable investment that we wonder where the right hon. Lady got the anecdotes which she described today about the position of industry and how it would be helped by these measures.
  The crucial long-term need is to restore profitability. For years now, profitability
  536
  has been declining. Inflation-blind taxation and appallingly high interest rates have made it not worth proceeding with project after project. Unless the Chancellor of the Exchequer can meet this need, unless he can restore profits and so recreate a healthy capital market, his exercise in trying to rescue British industry will not succeed. As my right hon. Friend said, it will be only a kidney machine operation.
  We shall want a full debate on the changes in the Price Code. The right hon. Lady said, a little airily I thought, that we should have a debate on the affirmative resolutions needed for the various changes to be made under the code. That will not be enough. We shall want a full debate on the Price Code.
  It has taken a long time for the Labour Party to come even as far as it appears to have done and for the Chancellor to have come as far as his statements suggest, and we await the actions that will follow the Budget. It has taken a long time for Labour Members to comprehend that strong industry demands a strong financial sector. I am not sure that all of them even now begin to recognise that or begin to recognise that these mechanisms are an essential part of a healthy economy.
  There is still too much emphasis on dealing with big business, and my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Mr. Lane) was right to point to the indication in so much of the phraseology and vocabulary of the Government Front Bench that they do not remember, and have to keep on being reminded of, the position of small businesses and their financial needs.
  Government Members have to learn that savings have to be mobilised to support a particular level of industrial expansion, that it is not done out of thin air, that it cannot be done by saying that the taxpayer will foot the bill, and that it cannot, in the medium and long run, be done by running a colossal borrowing requirement and hoping that in one way or another, excellent banking system or not, the Paymaster-General going round persuading the Arabs or not, a sufficient amount of that debt will be taken up to see that we get through without the money supply exploding.

  537
  The Chancellor of the Exchequer has shown some boldness. He said that, rather like Soames Forsyte, he will not be loved, and I suspect he is right about that. [Interruption.] The Chancellor remembers the desire somehow to win support, and perhaps he is feeling that he will not make it. But the right hon. Gentleman appears to be amazingly confident. He said on television last night that he has made sure—not that he will try to make sure—that industry will be vital, vigorous, alert and profitable. He says he has done that. That is the confidence that he appears to feel. Some of us wonder whether it is confidence or bravado. We wonder whether his was a smile of confidence or a grin of pure nervous fear.
  I hope that over-confidence will not be the Chancellor's epitaph—for the country's sake, not for his own because he can look after himself. But the right hon. Gentleman will need far more of the courage that he has begun to show—one or two of my hon. Friends have quite fairly referred to this—and far more support and understanding from the Tribune group than it has shown so, far or is likely to show on present form. Without that courage the right hon. Gentleman will fail and the price that we shall all have to pay will be not the level of unemployment which he called regrettably likely, but far higher.
  The price we shall pay will not be in terms of a level of inflation which a year ago seemed regrettable but will be appallingly higher. It will be a price that we shall all have to pay in jobs, in the stability of our currency and in the stability of our institutions. If that is the right hon. Gentleman's failure, it will be the failure of our country and of our system.
  9.30 p.m.
  The Paymaster-General (Mr. Edmund Dell): The hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Howell) was a little patronising, if I may say so, in suggesting that the Labour Government are only just learning that a strong industry needs a strong financial sector. We know that. The trouble is and always has been—and this was the experience of the Leader of the Opposition when he was Prime Minister—that the performance of industry has been unsatisfactory. It is this
  538
  above all which has led to questioning by many people, particularly by my hon. Friends, as to what can be done to improve the performance of industry.
  The hon. Gentleman also mentioned the problem of small businesses. I say at once that I regret, as does my right hon. Friend, that for administrative reasons we are not able right away to provide the same facilities in respect of stock appreciation as we can do for firms with final stocks of a value of above £25,000. My right hon. Friend has given an assurance that he will take account of that fact when he is deciding what to do in respect of the next financial year. At any rate, it is fair to point out that such firms will benefit from the relaxation in the Price Code and from the greater liquidity which my right hon. Friend's Budget will enable large firms to keep.
  There are a number of matters about which I have to inform the House. I want to tell the House about the Oil Taxation Bill. There are some other matters to which I shall refer. The first relates to the aggregation of children's investment income. The House will remember that in his Budget speech last March my right hon. Friend said that it was his intention to legislate for the aggregation of children's investment income with effect from April 1975. That remains the Government's firm intention but as there is very heavy pressure on this autumn's Finance Bill this legislation will have to wait until spring 1975.
  To avoid any possible misunderstanding I repeat the assurance that aggregation will not affect the income received by the thalidomide children from damages and from the charitable trust funds. Other hard cases will be helped by an exemption for modest amounts of income.
  For the same reason my right hon. Friend has decided, with regret, that he must postpone until next spring the package of measures which he foreshadowed in his March Budget to permit payment of interest on delayed repayments of tax by the Revenue and to encourage the more prompt payment of tax to the Revenue.
  There are two points arising out of the Budget Resolutions to which I wish to refer. The first concerns Resolution 4. This will restore the regulator mechanism which was used last July. I can tell the

  539
  House that there is no intention to have a regulator power in respect of the 25 per cent. rate.
  Then there is Resolution 7 which deals with refunds to persons constructing dwellings otherwise than in the course of business. My right hon. Friend has decided to take action on an irritating VAT anomaly which affects a small but deserving part of housing. New houses built by commercial builders or housing associations have been eligible for zero-rating since the inception of the tax. But people who had the initiative to build their own houses have had to pay VAT on the materials they purchase and have been unable to obtain any relief from this tax. It is proposed that tax payments made from today on purchases of materials for a "do-it-yourself" house-building project should be repayable by Customs and Excise after the house is completed.
  May I now inform the House of the timetable for the two Bills which arise out of this Budget Statement. I will deal first with the Finance Bill and then with the Oil Taxation Bill. The Finance Bill, which is sizeable and complicated, especially the part dealing with capital transfer tax, will be published not later than 10th December. We propose to allow plenty of time for hon. Members to study it before Committee and we therefore propose that Committee stage of the Bill should not begin until after the Christmas Recess.
  As to the Oil Taxation Bill, we hope to publish this next Tuesday, 19th November, and to have the Second Reading and the Committee stage before the Christmas Recess. I hope that hon. Members of all parties will be sufficiently satisfied with the Bill to make that possible, but it is important that it should be enacted without too much delay.
  My right hon. Friend said yesterday that I would give further information about the Oil Taxation Bill to the House. Before describing the Bill, however, I should like to refer to something that was said about North Sea oil by the right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Fraser). There was also a similar implication in some of the remarks made by my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies). Both of them warned against treating North Sea oil as a
  540
  panacea for the problems of this country and they warned against illusions based on North Sea oil.
  I would agree with everything that lion. Members say on that score. Certainly it is a boost to our economy, and certainly it will give us the important advantage of security of supply. Given the present cost of oil, it will be a great aid to our balance of payments. But it has not come to us as a result of any particular merit on our part. It does not increase directly our industrial competitiveness. Indeed, as the last nine months have shown, it is perfectly possible to have North Sea oil and a non-oil deficit on the balance of payments unless we improve our industrial competitiveness. That is the great point to which successive Governments have directed themselves and in which we must succeed.
  North Sea oil will certainly add to the resources available to this country. On the basis of a cautious estimate of reserves, it might rise to an additional one-third of 1 per cent. added to the growth of gross domestic product if no controls were placed on the rate of depletion. That is to be compared with the hope of a long-term growth of productive potential of about 3 per cent. But I emphasise that no one in the Government believes that it represents a solution to the basic economic problems of this country, though it is obviously an important and invaluable aid in tackling them.
  However that may be, it is essential that we get the structure of oil taxation in this country right. I want, therefore, to tell the House about the Oil Taxation Bill. The Bill is intended to achieve two main purposes. First, it makes certain amendments to the corporation tax treatment of the profits of oil companies. Second, it introduces a new tax on North Sea profits—the petroleum revenue tax. I discuss the corporation tax amendments first.
  The corporation tax amendments are again of two kinds. There are those primarily concerned with the profits of the oil companies in their trade outside the North Sea and there are those concerned directly with North Sea profits. Both kinds of amendments follow directly from the report of the Public Accounts Committee on North Sea Oil and Gas.

  541
  I deal first with those primarily concerned with the profits of the oil companies in their trade outside the North Sea.
  The Finance Bill will amend the general transfer pricing legislation in Section 485 of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1970 so as to increase its effectiveness. Experience has shown that it is not difficult for a group to construct arrangements under which buying and selling companies, though not in fact at arm's length, are not "controlled" for the purpose of the section. A broader definition of "control" will therefore be introduced, together with adequate information powers for the operation and enforcement of the rules. That will be in the Finance Bill.
  The Oil Taxation Bill will extend the scope of the transfer pricing legislation in relation to the petroleum industry to cover transactions between a United Kingdom resident company and an associate company wherever resident. At the moment Section 485 specifically does not apply to sales between two associates both resident in the United Kingdom and liable to tax on the profits from dealing in the property sold. It does not. therefore, apply to the situation where Middle East oil is sold at posted prices by a production company to a marketing company both of which are resident in the United Kingdom, and subject to tax on their profits.
  Under the new legislation, if any such transactions take place at artificial transfer prices a realistic arms length price will be substituted. The concept of arms length price will also be clarified to meet the special circumstances of the oil industry. Following an announcement to that effect in the Budget introduced in March 1973 by the then Chancellor, the oil companies are expecting that strengthened transfer price provisions will apply from 1st January 1973, and this will be the effective date of the legislation that will be introduced.
  A former Chancellor of the Exchequer—Mr. Anthony Barber—made proposals for dealing with this problem in his Budget in March 1973, but the House will observe that it is not those proposals that he then made that we have adopted, though the proposals we have adopted are directed to the same problem.
  542
  The White Paper of 11th July introduced by the Secretary of State for Energy referred to the artificial losses which the oil companies had accumulated up to 31st December 1972 when the new transfer pricing rules take effect. It was proposed that these losses should be cancelled and that corresponding limitations should be imposed on the use of capital allowances for expenditure already incurred outside the Continental Shelf. This proposal raises particularly complex technical questions and we have decided to postpone the legislation until the spring Finance Bill so as to allow time to consider the problems further and to produce a workable solution.
  I turn now to the Corporation Tax amendments concerned with profits from North Sea oil. It has already been announced that there will be a ring fence for corporation tax purposes round the profits from the United Kingdom, territorial waters and the Continental Shelf, so that they will not be reduced by allowances and losses from extraneous activities. These measures will apply to group relief and to similar set-offs within a single company and a company with losses or excess allowances will not be able to use them to claim payment of the imputation tax credit on dividends received from a company within its group and paid out of North Sea profits. The ring fence will apply to accounting periods ending after 11th July 1974.
  I hope that it will generally be agreed that the corporation tax yield from the North Sea, which will be substantial in amount, should not be at risk of companies bringing all sorts of activities and expenditure into the United Kingdom tax net merely so as to get relief against North Sea profits. However, the ring fence will face only one-way: losses and allowances resulting from activities on the Continental Shelf will still be able to be set against profits from activities elsewhere.
  The then Financial Secretary to the Treasury, the hon. Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins), in reply to a debate on a report from the Public Accounts Committee in December 1973, said that it was not the intention of the then Government to take the action that I have just described, but we intend to take it.
  I now turn to the petroleum revenue tax. It has been clear for some time,

  543
  perhaps since the Public Accounts Committee Report, that the oil companies themselves, for the most part, accept the need for an additional tax on North Sea profits if the United Kingdom is to secure a fairer share of the benefits from the Continental Shelf and to maximise the gain to the balance of payments. I do not think anyone will have any difficulty in agreeing with this view. It is indeed necessary. The rules and structure of the tax will be set out in the Bill. As the Bill will be published next week, I think it is reasonable to ask the House to wait for publication for the details of this tax, but I will now set out the general scheme.
  The tax will apply to the winning of hydrocarbons under licence in the United Kingdom and under the United Kingdom territorial waters and Continental Shelf. It will not apply to refining or other processing of oil and gas. For the purpose of the tax, allowable expenditure in a field will be availabe to be set against receipts from that field when it is incurred, subject to the procedures for claiming relief, and there will be relief for abortive expenditure. Certain capital expenditure, including capital expenditure on production and transportation will qualify for an uplift of 50 per cent., but no allowance will be made for interest. This allowance of 150 per cent. of capital expenditure is a substantial benefit to company cash flows. The tax will be a taxation prior charge on the profits—in other words, it will stand in front of corporation tax and will be deductible in computing profits for corporation tax purposes.
  The tax will apply to oil and gas, but there will be special provisions for fields already in production, including the Southern Basin gas fields. Allowance will be made for past costs, but no account will be taken of pre-Budget day receipts from oil or gas.
  The oil companies may have objections to aspects or details of the structure of the tax. The Government will certainly listen to and consider anything that they have to say. But I must make clear that the prior charge aspect and the field-by-field basis are fundamental elements in the conception of the tax.
  The Bill will not state the rate of tax. The House will be asked to approve the
  544
  rate in the Finance Bill next spring. But that does not mean that the announcement of the rate will necessarily have to wait till then. On the contrary, from the point of view of the oil companies, the sooner the uncertainties about the new tax can be resolved, the better. But this is new ground for all of us. Here we have an important new tax on profits, of which we have as yet no experience to guide us. It is designed to ensure that a proper share of the profits comes to the community as a whole, and also that the balance of payments benefits fully from the development of the major national resource represented by North Sea oil.
  However, it is a tax which does not exist in isolation. The Government "take" from the revenues of the oil companies will now have four components: the existing royalties; corporation tax, computed in the normal way, but modified by the changes which I have indicated; the new petroleum revenue tax; and where applicable, the proceeds of direct State participation in oil licences, to be freely negotiated with the oil companies in the next few months.
  Clearly, the oil companies are concerned as soon as possible to know their net position after all these different factors have been taken into account. The Government have already made their own calculations. We therefore have our own ideas about the appropriate rate. But there are still uncertainties in the picture. These arise, not from the nature of the tax system or of the other related changes, but from the physical facts of exploration in the North Sea and from the nature of the oil business.
  There has been a good deal of comment recently, in the Press and elsewhere, about the increasing costs of North Sea development. Some of this simply reflects the increase in the level of prices generally. Some of it may represent an increase in real or constant price terms, due to previous over-optimism about the sheer technical difficulty of winning oil in such inhospitable waters.
  We need to take into account the likely range of the various estimates in fixing the initial rate for the new tax. So, before the rate is finally settled, I intend to have further early and detailed discussions with the oil companies about their present and

  545
  future level of costs, and about the effect of the tax proposals on the future profitability of North Sea operations.
  Mr. Patrick Jenkin: Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared at this stage to recognise that, in the case of some of the smaller, marginal fields, the increase in costs has been such that, on any likely outcome, there will be no room for any additional tax on top of corporation tax without making the whole thing uneconomic?
  Mr. Dell: I shall come to the question of marginal fields.
  Mr. Tam Dalyell: On the narrow point of the allowance for historic costs—past costs—may we take it that there will be a fairly generous interpretation, because this is a matter of considerable concern to those on the Scottish East coast?
  Mr. Dell: We shall have to examine the Bill in terms of the particular requirements put to us by the oil companies, and we can discuss that question further.
  Mr. Christopher Tugendhat: As the right hon. Gentleman has emphasised the field-by-field nature of the tax, can he tell us whether the rate of tax will be varied from field to field or what kind of provision he is making to take account of the varying profitability of fields, including the bringing into production of small fields which the oil companies themselves might be reluctant to develop?
  Mr. Dell: There will be a single rate of tax. Perhaps the hon. Member will await my brief remarks on the problem of marginal and small fields, of which we are well aware.
  I was saying that I shall be inviting the oil companies to provide information about their current costs and their estimates of future costs so that we can come to a final decision on the appropriate rate of tax. I hope that the oil companies will co-operate fully and frankly in this consultation. It is in their interests as well as that of the Government that they should do so.
  Thereafter—and as I have emphasised I hope reasonably soon—the Government will decide the rate of tax. In doing so we shall have fully in mind that while we are determined to achieve our objectives, we fully recognise that the tax
  546
  must leave the oil companies with an adequate return on their capital and sufficient incentive to continue with the difficult and hazardous work in the North Sea, which they have been undertaking with determination and skill. In particular, we are conscious of the need not to deter investment in the marginal field. We shall certainly arrange things so that the combined effect of the fiscal measures and of other measures in contemplation makes allowance for this problem.
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy yesterday wrote to the companies inviting them to begin negotiations on the question of Government participation. These negotiations will be undertaken by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, assisted by my noble Friend the Minister of State, Department of Energy and myself. The consultations about the tax and the negotiations about participation are two separate but related processes, involving two separate sets of discussions, but of course my right hon. Friend and I and the Minister of State will be working very closely together. The important point is that the petroleum revenue tax stands as a tax in its own right and that its enactment is not dependent on progress with the participation negotiations.
  Mr. Dalyell: Can the Treasury take on board that the real and urgent problem of secondary fields is that it should be made worth while for BP to develop the Andrew field, as well as the Forties field, rather than come back to it in 20 years' time?
  Mr. Dell: That is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy. Obviously the tax aspects are important in their effect on the marginal fields. We are aware of their importance, and the impact of the tax will be discussed when the full text of the Bill is available together with the other measures in contemplation.
  I regret that it has taken me so long to deal with that point. I shall now reply to some of the questions which have been asked in today's debate. My hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood (Mr. Walker) was a little concerned about remarks by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection concerning the productivity deduction. Certainly right hon. and hon. Members

  547
  on the Opposition benches pricked up their ears when she came to that part of her speech, and they read into it implications which perhaps it did not deserve. Perhaps my hon. Friend also read into it more than there is there.
  My hon. Friend was fearful of penalties being demanded of people who break the TUC guidelines. I refer my hon. Friend to paragraph 13 of the review of the Price Code consultative document. That paragraph shows exactly what is proposed and shows also that this is a matter which would have to be considered with both sides of industry to determine whether there was a practical way of fulfilling the objectives stated there.
  There has been some discussion during the debate about how far the Budget is a reversal of what my right hon. Friend did last March. A number of hon. Members, including the Leader of the Opposition, have made something of that point. I am always interested when the Leader of the Opposition talks about reversal of policies. Such talk is a little inappropriate from him. Indeed, such an accusation does not wear well with him.
  The House must appreciate the scale of the problem that my right hon. Friend has been dealing with in his Budget. The idea that the placing of corporation tax in March 2 per cent. higher than was intended by the Conservative Government, or that the introduction of the ACT surcharge are causes of the liquidity crisis, is absurd.
  My right hon. Friend has found it right to rectify the situation, both through the Price Code, with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection, and through the taking into account of stock appreciation in the calculation of corporation tax, to the extent of £1,600 million, a figure far out of scale with the measures that he took last March.
  What has made it a Doomsday machine has been the operation of the productivity deduction at 50 per cent. What has made up the Doomsday machine has been the rate of inflation and the slow rate of growth in the domestic market. That has made it impossible for the productivity deduction of 50 per cent. to operate without depriving industry of liquidity. The rate of inflation and
  548
  the slow rate of growth in the domestic market did not begin on 4th March 1974. They were already operating at the end of 1973.
  If hon. Members thought that modification was needed in the Doomsday machine they should have taken account of the situation I have described, of how industry was being deprived of its liquidity. When we came into office we found that the previous Conservative Government had not prepared in any way to provide themselves with information about company liquidity. The information upon which they depended was not derived directly from companies. It was derived from information from banks and financial institutions. They did not know about the problem and that, presumably, is the reason that they did not take action.
  We have now decided to improve the quality of statistics on this point. I think that in future Governments will be better prepared with information about company liquidity than we were in March, and certainly better prepared than were the previous Government at the time they departed from office.
  It has been generally agreed on all sides—in the Press, and to a great extent in the House—that the main characteristic of the Budget is realism. The realism lies in what it rejects as well as in what it says. We no longer need to reject the Leader of the Opposition's illusion of deficit-led growth, because nobody could think of that as a policy in the circumstances.
  The realism in the Budget is based on an appreciation of the fact that during the next four years living standards in this country will, for the most part, not be increased and that energy prices must be brought up to the level of cost because we cannot continue to subsidise them. Further, public expenditure must be kept under control and the balance of payments position must be rectified as soon as possible, because we cannot go on operating at these high levels of deficit indefinitely. Unless the social contract works, there will be an inevitable effect on the level of unemployment which no manner of demand management can prevent. We have four years in which to fight for the future of this nation, and in this Budget lies a proper beginning.
  Debate adjourned.—[Mr. John Ellis.]
  Debate to be resumed tomorrow.

  BUDGET RESOLUTIONS AND ECONOMIC SITUATION
    ADJOURNMENT
    Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. John Ellis.]

  KEW (ENVIRONMENT)
  10.0 p.m.
  Sir Anthony Royle: I am grateful to the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment far again coming to the House to deliver, I hope, a speech that he should have delivered in the last Parliament. Through no fault of his own he was unable to do so. I am now able to give him the opportunity to reply to a debate on the question of the environment of Kew. Although the situation has changed slightly since July, much of what I intended to say then still applies.
  Kew is part of the borough of Richmond-upon-Thames and a part of my constituency. It includes a piece of London which is well known throughout the world. The botanical gardens in Kew are world famous, as is Kew Green. The Palace of Kew, in which kings and queens of England have resided, is also well known. On one side of the village of Kew runs the River Thames, a section of the river which does not have the pleasure of having the university boat race upon it but it is beautiful and admired and is much visited by foreign visitors.
  Kew is not only part of our heritage that I have the pleasure of enjoying and the privilege of representing here but a heritage enjoyed by the entire country and tens of thousands of visitors from overseas every year. It is also a recreational centre much appreciated by people living in other parts of London who perhaps cannot get to the river and cannot get out of the built-up areas. It is not only the residents of Kew who benefit from the lovely scenery and environment of the area.
  Kew is being raped by the Minister's Department and the Greater London Council, and it is not lying back and enjoying it. Never in the 15 years that I have had the honour to be the Member of Parliament for the area has the situation been so grave for the residents of Kew and the heritage I have described.
  550
  The first element giving cause for great concern is something which it is not appropriate to discuss in great detail now but which must be mentioned. I refer to aircraft noise, a matter which is not the main burden of my complaints tonight or the responsibility of the hon. Gentleman's Department. It has grown to an extent which has become intolerable to the residents of the area over the past few years. On another occasion I should like to expound once more on the subject and on how it affects Kew.
  I wish tonight to talk mainly about road traffic. The opening of the M3 motorway affects Richmond, but because of good signposting by the Department many of the effects feared by people in the area of the early opening of the M3 in July have proved not to be as serious as expected. However, many of us are nervous about the effect of the opening of the GLC link road, which should be in use some time next year. It may well entail a tremendous injection of traffic into the area, traffic which cannot be contained.
  However, my main point concerns juggernaut lorries. The Minister hears about the subject regularly from hon. Members on both sides of the House from all over the United Kingdom whose constituents suffer from juggernauts.
  The situation in Kew is grim. The main responsibility—I freely accept this—is with the Greater London Council. That is the body which is responsible for strategic planning in the London area. But nothing is done by the GLC. It is not interested in Kew. Further, it is not interested in Richmond. Various council visitors appear in the area from the GLC. They busy themselves in trying to buy houses in the area in which to put people from overspill areas in other parts of London. The problems of transport and traffic in Kew have not been hoisted in. This applies not only in Kew but in other parts of the area. The GLC does not appear to be interested in and does not wish to solve the problems facing the local people. I feel sure that the views I have expressed are shared by my local authority, although I did not consult it before making these points.
  The village of Kew consists of a lot of narrow lanes. That is the only way to describe them. The width of the main

  551
  road that goes through Kew is no wider than the space between the two Front Benches in this House. Yet through the narrow lanes vast lorries thunder by day and night. It is clear to many of us that the juggernaut trucks using the South Circular Road, which is routed not only by the GLC but by the Minister's Department through the middle of my constituency, over Kew Bridge, across Kew Green and through the narrow lanes of Kew, should be rerouted and that the South Circular Road should be routed elsewhere.
  I shall not suggest that the problems of Kew should be landed on the doorsteps of other areas which have equal problems. However, I ask the Minister to consider Kew's position. I raised the matter with the Minister's predecessors in the previous Government but it seemed that that administration was unable to cope with the matter. I hope that the Minister might be able to do better than his predecessors.
  It is intolerable that a major traffic artery routing the whole of the juggernaut traffic round the south of London should pass through the village of Kew. That has been the situation for some time. It could be routed elsewhere. Signposting could take place so that the traffic could go through Chiswick, for example. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Isleworth (Mr. Hayhoe) will not be pleased by that suggestion. I did not tell him that I would make it. But it is true that in Chiswick, where the M4 comes into London, there is a great arterial road with three lanes of traffic on both sides. That road is much more able to take the sort of traffic which now passes through Kew. In addition we have had the Grove Park Bridge diversion. That has taken place because the GLC is having to renew the bridge. The traffic has been diverted through Kew.
  The Director-General of the GLC wrote to me on 8th July. He said that he had every sympathy with the residents of Kew. The letter reads:
  "I must emphasise that the possibility of using Hartington Road as part of the diversion was very thoroughly investigated by the Council's officers."
  He continued:
  "they found its use impracticable."
  552
  The director-general has consulted the chairman of the council's west area board about the proposals for the use of Hartington Road. Having visited the area and examined the alternatives, he has said that he wishes to stand by the decision of his board which followed full discussion of the possibility of using Hartington Road. The answer is a lemon and the GLC is not prepared to do anything. The traffic will continue to flow through Kew.
  It has been proposed in the past that there should be widening of the Mortlake Road. This is the narrow road through the middle of Kew. What will that achieve? It will not be possible to widen the road enough to enable it to take the sort of traffic that is now passing through Kew.
  One of my constituents who lives in Kew, Mr. Charles Mozeley, wrote to me on this subject on 10th June. I sent copies of his letter to the Minister and to the GLC. It is important and has a marked bearing on the matter that I am discussing. It states:
  "Section 84 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1967 (as amended by Part IX of the Transport Act 1968 …) … imposes on the Greater London Council a duty to secure the expeditious convenient and safe movement of traffic. I submit that the Transport Committee of GLC have not upheld this Act as far as 'safe' is concerned. The Act further requires the Council so far as is practicable to have regard for the importance of regulating and restricting the use of roads by heavy commercial vehicles so as to preserve or improve the amenities of the areas through which the roads run. I submit that the Council has shown negligence in preserving the amenities as nothing whatever has been done to stem the spate of cracks, falling chimneys, falling plaster and crumbling walls which the residents of the Mortlake Road have had to deal with at their own expense and that the fine old houses at the junction of Kew Road and Mortlake Road far from being 'improved' (which they cannot be as they are a Conservation Area) are in danger of blight. And as far as preserving the shops on Mortlake Terrace, here too they are in danger of blight."
  These houses, as the Minister would know if he visited the area, are fine eighteenth-century houses. It is tragic that they should be being shaken to bits by the rumbling of juggernaut lorries along this narrow road.
  We have another problem which is not quite the same as the road itself—that of Kew Green, another important part of Kew, which is much admired and visited

  553
  by people from overseas and all parts of Britain. Here again, the problem is the routing of juggernaut lorries, which endlessly tank across Kew Green, and above all the parking of lorries—this is what worries people—directly outside the windows of the houses of those living on the green, and even on the terrace of Kew Green itself. Although many bona fide coaches taking people to the gardens have difficulty finding somewhere else to park once they have set people down, it is wrong that arrangements are not made for the parking of these large vehicles away from the green, because this also spoils the environment.
  I could talk for hours about other parts of my constituency—about Richmond itself, about Mortlake, about Sheen, about Petersham and about Ham—but I should like to mention Barnes. The village of Barnes is similar to Kew with its narrow streets, and it is also badly affected. Signs should be erected to ban heavy lorries from using Barnes High Street. Perhaps I could raise this problem another time if I am allowed to do so.
  But I need the Minister's help and I think that he can give it. While I realise that much of what I have said is a matter in the first instance for the GLC, the Minister's Department could take a greater interest to help to advise the GLC, to try to bring pressure on the GLC, to take actions which people living there and the local authority feel to be vital.
  I also wish to appeal for the Minister's help in regard to the industrial site in Kew, which has been there for many years and was at one time used by the Chrysler Motor Company to produce trucks. When that company operated there, there was very little complaint and concern from local residents because it took into account the views and environment of local people whose houses are close upon the industrial site. Since then it has been sold, and the noise and smell produced by the companies working on the site have become well nigh intolerable. I have been reluctant to raise this matter in the House. I have tried—I am afraid without success—to obtain cooperation from the firms involved for many years. I have failed. Therefore, I am forced to raise the matter in the House.
  This site is managed by a reputable firm of estate agents, Keith, Cardale,
  554
  Groves and Company. I have a good deal of correspondence with this firm which appears to be unable to act and to be dilatory in dealing with my suggestions. It refused to put in a manager to run the site, using the excuse that the companies which operated on the site did not wish to have a manager and would not pay for one.
  The fencing round the site is in a dilapidated state. The noise and nuisance caused by lorries using the site becomes worse and worse as the months go by. They use it at all hours of the day and night and on Sundays. There is the noise of revving engines and hooting horns, yet nothing is done.
  Two other companies on the site, one of which is Bullens, responsible for a lot of the traffic, have talked to me and members of the local residents' association, but nothing happens and the situation deteriorates. Smith's Crisps also operates on the same site, right in the middle of a residential area.
  Forte's runs a catering factory in the centre. The smell from that factory wafts out across the houses and streets of Kew. Forte's has tried hard to deal with the problem and has spent a considerable amount of money. I have talked to the firm about it in an attempt to deal with the nuisance caused by the smell, but all the attempts have failed. Technical advice has been received but it appears impossible to deal with the smell emanating from the factory.
  Can the Minister help? Will he give me an assurance that he will ask his experts to talk to Forte's to see whether the Department of the Environment can assist the firm in dealing with the problem? I know that it is not possible to wave a magic wand, but the advice of the Department might be invaluable. I appeal to the Minister for his and his Department's help. I hope that he will give me an encouraging reply.
  The Lyon Group, which originally took over the site which has now been sold again, gave an assurance when it took over the site from Chrysler that firms operating on the site would not cause a nuisance. They have caused a grave nuisance which is getting worse week by week. The Richmond-upon-Thames Council has exerted constant pressure

  555
  upon the companies, as I and the residents have done, but we have got nowhere.
  I ask the Minister not only to give us the help of his technical advisers on the smell problem but also to consider the possibility of new noise nuisance legislation. I do not believe that there is any legislation to deal with noise nuisance caused by industrial sites in the middle of residential areas. It is impossible for us to continue to rely upon the Public Health Act 1936 and the Noise Abatement Act 1960. It is a matter for consideration whether a further Bill could be produced, or an amendment to the existing Acts. It could be either a Government Bill or a Private Member's Bill. I should be happy to hear the Minister's comments, or, if he would prefer to study the matter and talk to his colleagues about it first, I shall be willing for him to do that and to write to me. There is a gap in our legislation on the environment. There is no Act dealing with noise nuisance from industrial sites in the middle of residential areas.
  I am grateful to the Minister for coming here at this late hour. He and his colleagues are responsible for our environment. I think I have indicated to him the desperation which is felt in Kew, one small but important part of my constituency.
  Unless some action can be taken or hope given by the Minister tonight that there will be assistance in the near future, my constituents may be forced to take other action. I hope that this will not happen. But if they are forced to do so because of frustration and despair, it will be understandable and they will have my full support.
  10.21 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Neil Carmichael): I am aware that the hon. Member for Richmond, Surrey (Sir A. Royle) and I should have faced each other in a debate of this nature on an earlier occasion. Unfortuately, because of the unpredictability of the House we missed the opportunity to debate the matter on the last occasion. Therefore, I am pleased that this evening he has been able to raise the important subject of nuisance to his constituents.
  556
  Let me say at the outset that although I am by no means as familiar with the area as is the hon. Gentleman, I have visited Kew a number of times and also Barnes, and I know the feel of the area. Therefore, I am not totally without an understanding of the problem which he has posed. He will also appreciate that similar problems arise in many other parts of the country.
  The problem which the hon. Gentleman has described arises because the area is confined by the river and by Kew Gardens, and the area demonstrates in an acute form the clash between the needs of the local environment and the wider needs of London as a whole.
  The residents of Kew value their mobility provided by their cars, but no doubt, as emphasised by the hon. Gentleman, they resent their main roads being used by traffic to and from other parts of London. The problem is made worse by the inevitable concentration of traffic on the approaches to the bridges at Kew and Chiswick. A further source of annoyance mentioned by the hon. Gentleman is the noise of aircraft at Heathrow, which is only six miles away. The House has already had a recent Adjournment debate on that aspect of the matter and one of my colleagues then gave the Department's reply.
  I make clear at the outset that the responsibility for the main roads in Kew lies with the Greater London Council and that the Richmond-upon-Thames London Borough Council is responsible for other roads. There are no trunk or special roads in this part of London south of the River Thames for which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State would be responsible. The GLC is also the traffic authority for all roads in Greater London except for trunk roads.
  If because of shortage of time I am unable to reply to all the hon. Gentleman's points, then I shall look carefully at what he said and I shall communicate with him in due course.
  I wish to say something about the alternatives to alleviate traffic congestion at Kew, which was mentioned by the hon. Gentleman. Kew Bridge and its approach through Kew Green are heavily used by traffic using the South Circular Road and by traffic from and beyond Richmond destined for the western and

  557
  northern parts of London. The nearest bridges on either side are at Twickenham and Chiswick, both on the A316, an important radial route from the south west to central London.
  South of Kew Bridge the GLC designed a scheme to relieve congestion at the junction of Kew Road with Mortlake Road. Following considerable local opposition, a public inquiry was held into the proposal in February 1972. The independent inspector appointed by the then Secretary of State was satisfied that the proposal was justified and worth while, and not as harmful as many objectors had supposed.
  An alternative suggested at the time, which the hon. Gentleman has also promoted, was that the route designated as the South Circular Road should not be through Kew at all but along the Great Chertsey Road, A316, to the Hogarth roundabout in Chiswick and then westwards along the A4 to its junction with the North Circular Road, A406. I am sure it is not beyond the hon. Gentleman's imagination to consider the reaction of his colleagues across the river to such a suggestion. I know the road myself fairly well. I represent a Scottish constituency, of course, and I use the road frequently when I come into London from Heathrow airport. It may be a three-lane dual carriageway road, but it is very busy, and there is frequently a big bottleneck on the way in and out of London.
  The inspector found that, among other reasons why this suggestion should not be adopted, the diversion would add about 1¼ miles to each journey, thereby giving rise to additional operating costs for vehicles, especially goods vehicles. Of perhaps greater significance is the fact that the alternative route is already congested, especially the Hogarth roundabout. The hon. Member knows that some years ago it was vital that a flyover was created at the Hogarth roundabout. If it had not been, the situation would have been even worse. Indeed, it is not a great deal better now because traffic has grown to meet the new physical conditions which various Ministers have laid down to help the situation.
  Sir A. Royle: This ignores the appalling congestion that there is in Kew, where it is just as bad, and it is made worse by the narrowness of the road, a
  558
  situation which does not exist at the Hogarth roundabout.
  Mr. Carmichael: The hon. Gentleman must not think that I have not a great deal of sympathy for him. I am extremely sympathetic towards the problem of vehicles in residential areas. If he can suggest a solution which will be satisfactory to both Kew and the surrounding areas, he will make an enormous contribution of which even Colin Buchanan would be proud.
  The hon. Gentleman, understandably, is concerned greatly about the residential area within his constituency, especially with the opening of the extension to the M3. He was kind enough to say that the signposting had been of considerable value to the area.
  The GLC, which is the traffic authority for roads in London, except for trunk roads, will no doubt keep a close watch on the position and will introduce measures to control, direct and regulate traffic where it thinks necessary. My right hon. Friend agreed the GLC proposals to erect traffic signals at certain points on the A316 to regulate the flow of traffic and to help pedestrians. These are now operating. We shall always be prepared to consider with the GLC and other local authorities what further action may be needed not only to obtain the greatest benefit from the new facility for the community as a whole but to deal with any local problems which may arise.
  I have not a great deal of time in which to speak about juggernaut lorries. Perhaps anything I am unable to say tonight I can explain to the hon. Gentleman in writing.
  There are weight restrictions at Grove Park railway bridge on the A316. These apply while strengthening of the bridge is being undertaken. The work is scheduled to start very soon. While it is in progress it will be necessary to reduce the traffic flow in each direction to one lane for a substantial part of the contract. Vehicles over 20 tons from Richmond are already being directed along Kew Road, the A307, to Kew bridge and thence to the A4. Any vehicles missing the diversion signs at the A307 are again directed at the junction of the A316 with the A205 on to the South Circular Road. Vehicles leaving London are advised at the Hogarth roundabout to use the A4

  559
  and A30 route to the M3 and thereby avoid both Chiswick and Kew bridges. I accept that any increase in heavy goods vehicles is detrimental to the environment of Kew, but the Greater London Council tells me that it hopes to have the bridge fully restored to traffic by next July.
  On the wider question of lorry routes in general, the GLC again is the traffic authority responsible for designating such routes. Although the Heavy Commercial Vehicles (Controls and Regulations) Act 1973—popularly known as the "Dykes Act", since it was piloted through this House by the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. Dykes) as a Private Member—does not apply to it, it has resolved to respond as though it did and to exercise its powers taking into account
  560
  the importance of regulating the use of roads by heavy commercial vehicles so as to preserve or improve the amenities of the areas through which the roads run. The GLC is curently considering how best to resolve the special problems arising with a large metropolis.
  The Borough of Richmond has commissioned consulting engineers to undertake an area traffic study which will include the study of the movements of heavy vehicles. I shall contact the hon. Member—
  The Question having been proposed at Ten o'clock and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at half-past Ten o'clock.

ENVIRONMENT
  Channel Tunnel and Rail Link
  Channel Tunnel and Rail Link
  Rate Support Grant
  Rate Support Grant
  Railway (Disabled Travellers)
  Railway (Disabled Travellers)
  House Building
  House Building
  Crash Helmets (Sikhs)
  Crash Helmets (Sikhs)
  Water Boards
  Water Boards
  Rates
  Rates
  Housing Rents and Subsidies
  Housing Rents and Subsidies
  Theatres (Advisory Committee)
  Theatres (Advisory Committee)
  Speed Limit
  Speed Limit
  Foreign Goods Vehicles
  Foreign Goods Vehicles
  Local Authority Housing Mortgage Rates)
  Local Authority Housing Mortgage Rates)
  Private Housing Ownership
  Private Housing Ownership
  Rents (Business Premises)
  Rents (Business Premises)
  Demolition Control (Dobry Report)
  Demolition Control (Dobry Report)
  M42, Nottingham-Castle Donington
  M42, Nottingham-Castle Donington
  Caravan Homes
  Caravan Homes
  Canterbury (Bypass)
  Canterbury (Bypass)
  Aircraft Noise (Home Insulation)
  Aircraft Noise (Home Insulation)
  Walls (Insulation)
  Walls (Insulation)
  Open Spaces
  Open Spaces
  A54 and A51 (M6 to Chester)
  A54 and A51 (M6 to Chester)
  Housing (Homeless Persons)
  Housing (Homeless Persons)
  Land Compensation Act Appeal
  Land Compensation Act Appeal
  Chlorination
  Chlorination
  Building Land
  Building Land
  Rents—Incomes Ratio
  Rents—Incomes Ratio
  Mortgages—Incomes Ratio
  Mortgages—Incomes Ratio
  M25
  M25
  Housing (Cost Yardstick)
  Housing (Cost Yardstick)
  Building Societies (Government Loan)
  Building Societies (Government Loan)
  Roads (Staffordshire)
  Roads (Staffordshire)
  Lower Harbledown
  Lower Harbledown
  Buses (Rural Areas)
  Buses (Rural Areas)
  Brough and Appleby (A66)
  Brough and Appleby (A66)
  Clay Cross
  Clay Cross
  Local Commissioner (Cheshire)
  Local Commissioner (Cheshire)
  A2
  A2
  Sewerage Charges
  Sewerage Charges
  Local Authorities' Borrowings
  Local Authorities' Borrowings
SCOTLAND
  Remedial Education Teachers
  Remedial Education Teachers
  River Clyde (Pollution)
  River Clyde (Pollution)
  Herring Quota
  Herring Quota
  Housing (Insulation)
  Housing (Insulation)
  Forestry
  Forestry
  Schools (Mobile Classrooms)
  Schools (Mobile Classrooms)
  Teachers' Salaries
  Teachers' Salaries
  Crofters
  Crofters
  Battered Wives and Children
  Battered Wives and Children
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Electoral Constituencies
  Electoral Constituencies
  Sunday Markets
  Sunday Markets
  Broadcasting (Crawford Inquiry)
  Broadcasting (Crawford Inquiry)
  Guard Dogs
  Guard Dogs
  Television Licence Fee
  Television Licence Fee
  Personal Information (Disclosure)
  Personal Information (Disclosure)
  Conspiracy (Prosecutions)
  Conspiracy (Prosecutions)
  Unlawful Assembly and Affray (Prosecutions)
  Unlawful Assembly and Affray (Prosecutions)
  Shrewsbury Building Workers
  Shrewsbury Building Workers
  Local Elections (Foreign Nationals)
  Local Elections (Foreign Nationals)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Government Contractors
  Government Contractors
  Government Departments and Services
  Government Departments and Services
  Value Added Tax
  Value Added Tax
  Income Tax Rebates (Unemployed persons)
  Income Tax Rebates (Unemployed persons)
  Development Land (Taxation)
  Development Land (Taxation)
  Public Lending Right
  Public Lending Right
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Food Prices
  Food Prices
  Calves (Slaughtering)
  Calves (Slaughtering)
  Cattle Fodder
  Cattle Fodder
  Food Levies and Tariffs
  Food Levies and Tariffs
  Calf Subsidy
  Calf Subsidy
  Beef
  Beef
  Agriculture (Liquidity)
  Agriculture (Liquidity)
  Ewes
  Ewes
CIVIL SERVICE
  Government Policy Advisers
  Government Policy Advisers
  Beef Prices (Uttoxeter)
  Beef Prices (Uttoxeter)
DEFENCE
  Simonstown
  Simonstown
  Dockyard, Plymouth
  Dockyard, Plymouth
  Oman
  Oman
EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  University Students (Public Expenditure)
  University Students (Public Expenditure)
  School Meals and Milk
  School Meals and Milk
  Teacher Training
  Teacher Training
  Youth Service
  Youth Service
  Arts Council
  Arts Council
  Student Grants
  Student Grants
  School Admittance System (Preston)
  School Admittance System (Preston)
ENERGY
  North Sea Oil
  North Sea Oil
  Power Stations (Coal Stocks)
  Power Stations (Coal Stocks)
  Celtic Sea Oil (Land Installations)
  Celtic Sea Oil (Land Installations)
  Pneumoconiosis (Compensation)
  Pneumoconiosis (Compensation)
  Oil Refining
  Oil Refining
EMPLOYMENT
  Health and Safety Commission
  Health and Safety Commission
  Disabled Persons (Lancashire)
  Disabled Persons (Lancashire)
  Sheltered Employment
  Sheltered Employment
  Training (North-West Region)
  Training (North-West Region)
FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
  Rhodesia
  Rhodesia
INDUSTRY
  Labour Costs
  Labour Costs
  Government Aid
  Government Aid
NORTHERN IRELAND
  Resettlement Association
  Resettlement Association
  Executive (Members' Offices)
  Executive (Members' Offices)
  Compensation Claims
  Compensation Claims
  Health Service Doctors
  Health Service Doctors
  Royal Ulster Constabulary
  Royal Ulster Constabulary
  Education Boards
  Education Boards
  Housing Improvements
  Housing Improvements
PRICES AND CONSUMER PROTECTION
  Retail Prices
  Retail Prices
  Food Prices
  Food Prices
  Food Subsidies
  Food Subsidies
  DEFENCE EXPENDITURE
  DEFENCE EXPENDITURE
SOCIAL SERVICES
  Attendance Allowance
  Attendance Allowance
  Hospital Doctors and Administrators (Payment)
  Hospital Doctors and Administrators (Payment)
  Vaccine-Damaged Children
  Vaccine-Damaged Children
  Agency Staff
  Agency Staff
  Doctors (Overseas Qualifications)
  Doctors (Overseas Qualifications)
  Macclesfield
  Macclesfield
  Moss Side, Manchester
  Moss Side, Manchester
  Disregards
  Disregards
  Nutrition (Sugar)
  Nutrition (Sugar)
  Pensions (Deferred Claims)
  Pensions (Deferred Claims)
  Pensions (Islanders)
  Pensions (Islanders)
  Supplementary Benefits
  Supplementary Benefits
  Family Allowances
  Family Allowances
TRADE
  Exports (Inflation Insurance)
  Exports (Inflation Insurance)
  Export Credits
  Export Credits
WALES
  Housing (Municipal Acquisition)
  Housing (Municipal Acquisition)
  Houses Survey
  Houses Survey
  Housing
  Housing
  Housing Waiting Lists
  Housing Waiting Lists
  Public Buildings (Government Expenditure)
  Public Buildings (Government Expenditure)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock (Prayers having been read earlier at the Judicial Sitting by the Lord Bishop of Leicester).
The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

LORD ALLEN OF FALLOWFIELD
Alfred Walter Henry Allen, Esquire, CBE, having been created Baron Allen of Fallowfield, of Fallowfield in Greater Manchester, for life—Was, in his robes, introduced between the Lord Peddie and the Lord Hamnett.
Several Lords—Took the Oath.

POLICE ATTENDANCE CHARGES
2.46 p.m.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, while fully recognising the splendid services rendered by the police in dealing with awkward situations such as those arising at "pop" festivals and football matches, they will state who pays the police for attendance at these events and what the extra charges have amounted to during the most appropriate recent period.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH): My Lords, when police are deployed on private property at the request of the owners, for example in football grounds, a charge is made; otherwise the costs of policing special events including "pop" festivals are met from police funds. I regret that no general estimate of the additional cost is available.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, may I ask Her Majesty's Government to consider whether those who enjoy these amenities and games and
774
festivals—and I would say even processions and protests—ought themselves to pay for their pleasure, especially since the Government are short of money which is needed for the needy?
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH: My Lords, the noble Lord's supplementary question goes a little wider than his original Question. I would certainly have to consider very carefully before accepting the principle that the right to demonstrate should be hedged in with qualifications that people should donate a sum of money to the Home Office or the local police authority. However, the central principle involved in the noble Lord's Question is that when the police are deployed on private property the owners of the property have to bear the cost. That is essentially the principle which underlies the present attitude in this matter.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, do not the consequential effects of interference—I will not call it trouble—with the taxpayer and the nation bear upon all of us, and why should those people not pay for their fun?
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH: No, my Lords; I do not accept what the noble Lord has just said. The right to demonstrate has been honoured by Governments of different political Parties for many years past. No proposition of the kind the noble Lord has just advanced has been accepted by Governments of either Party, and I very much hope it will not be.
LORD BLYTON: My Lords, will the Minister say whether the philosophy embodied in this Question applied to farmers demonstrating in Holyhead last week?
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH: My Lords, I think the noble Lord who asked the original Question would be in a better position to answer that than I would.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, when police are hurt on private property, who pays for their injuries?
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH: My Lords, a policeman who is injured on public duty receives compensation in exactly the same way as he would if he were injured in some other circumstances.

775
But if there is a point involved in this specific aspect which the noble Lord has raised of which I am not aware, I will write to him.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, is this the normal practice? Where is the borderline? If the police are paid separately for functioning on private property, should not those people who pay them bear some part of the cost for policemen who are injured, particularly those who are permanently injured?
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH: My Lords, every Saturday a very large number of police officers go to football matches, where the football clubs normally pay for the policing inside the ground. I am not aware of any particular rule covering what happens when a policeman is injured in those circumstances. My assumption would be that the normal rules would apply, but if there is anything in particular which applies in this case, I will write to the noble Lord.
LORD KINNAIRD: My Lords, could not the cost to the police of attending these often rather unattractive meetings be added to the price of the tickets?
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH: My Lords, that is presumably the position at the moment. When football clubs arrange with the local chief constable to provide a certain number of policemen for which they have to pay, obviously the spectator pays for that police protection through the admission charges.
LORD CASTLE: My Lords, are we to understand from the noble Lord's Answer to the noble Lord, Lord Fraser of Lonsdale, that he dissociates himself from the principle that the costs involved in the provocative processions of the National Front in this city should be a charge to the public?
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH: My Lords, I think that my attitude on the matter is quite straightforward. When demonstrations take place the police will make appropriate arrangements whatever the political philosophy of the people organising the demonstration.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS: My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord would
776
be a little clearer and more specific. He says that where police are called to private property the owner of the private property should pay the charge. This clearly applies in some cases, but obviously it cannot be applied when police are called to remove a burglar. Can he be a little clearer as to where this line is to be drawn?
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH: My Lords, I stated earlier the general principle, but, of course, if police are called to private premises or private property because an offence is taking place, in that case obviously the police do not impose a charge.
LORD DUNCAN-SANDYS: My Lords, for the purpose of "pop" festivals, is Windsor Great Park public or private property?
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH: My Lords, on the specific matter of the precise circumstances at Windsor—which I rather assumed might have been raised even earlier than the noble Lord has raised it—I understand that the cost of the police action fell on the local police fund, because the Crown Estates Commissioners had not contracted for a police presence and the police themselves decided to take action.
LORD PEDDIE: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend what is the recognised charge for police accommodation for private purposes, and whether or not there has been any change in the charges which have been made over the past few years?
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH: My Lords, as the noble Lord will not be altogether surprised to learn, I cannot give him a detailed answer to the question which he asked because it is rather wider than the Question on the Order Paper. I shall find out the answer and let him know.

PROFITS IN INDUSTRY
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government to state what steps they are taking to

777
encourage increased profits in free industry and the nationalised industries so as to provide enough money to meet the Government's requirements for all charges upon the Exchequer.
LORD JACQUES: My Lords, my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer yesterday announced a series of measures to improve company profitability and liquidity. He also made clear the Government's determination to safeguard the health and efficiency of the nationalised industries by phasing out as quickly as possible those subsidies which are paid in compensation for price restraint.
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, while congratulating the Chancellor and the Labour Government upon this attitude, may I ask whether "profits" is now no longer a dirty word but is recognised to be the requisite for the life of this land, without which we could not do any of the good things that we want to do?
LORD JACQUES: My Lords. "profits" has never been a dirty word. What really matters is what is done with the profits.
LORD ORR-EWING: My Lords, will the Minister acknowledge that the majority of wage demands and wage rises now being made go far beyond the guidelines laid down in the social contract?
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHEPHERD): My Lords, that has nothing to do with this case.
LORD ORR-EWING: My Lords, it has to do with the Question, if the noble Lord the Leader of the House will allow. Curiously enough, the biggest inflationary factor, acknowledged by the Government of the day, is wage demands and wage rises. That point was made in the Budget speech yesterday. Secondly, is the noble Lord aware that the Budget, with its predicted steep rises in the cost of rates, gas, electricity and transport, will not adequately compensate industry for the steep rises that it is having to meet, and will not cure the serious cash problem which is now affecting thousands of firms in this country?
LORD JACQUES: My Lords, the measures are aimed at providing the right cost environment in which companies can operate efficiently and profit-
778
ably. The Price Code and the corporation tax measures are directed at the point where inflation has hit hardest. These, together with the proposals to ensure an adequate supply of short and medium term finance, should mean that firms which are basically efficient will find that adequate financial resources are available. In addition, where the current economic climate threatens firms which are otherwise viable, funds will be made available selectively under the Industry Act.
LORD BLYTON: My Lords, is the Minister aware that since 1947 all Governments, for political expediency, have refused the nationalised industries increases of prices at given times over the years? Is he further aware that some of us are pleased that now the people will at least have to pay an economic price, and that the nationalised industries will then show a profit? I hope that the Tory Party will not exploit the fact that energy costs must increase.
LORD JACQUES: My Lords, I entirely agree.

CONFERENCE ON MUTUAL FORCE REDUCTIONS
2.56 p.m.
LORD CHELWOOD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what progress has been made so far in the Conference on Mutual Force Reductions in Central Europe, and how long it is expected to continue.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS): My Lords, the negotiations on mutual force reductions are still at the exploratory stage and no agreement is yet in sight. But the subject matter is highly complex and all concerned recognise that it will take time to reconcile the differences of approach between the two sides. In the meantime the discussions are proceeding steadily in a businesslike fashion.
LORD CHELWOOD: My Lords, will the Minister give the House a firm assurance that Her Majesty's Government are

779
not contemplating, and will not contemplate, any unilateral cuts in British Force strengths in the Central Front at NATO which are not agreed with our allies, and which are not in accordance with the assymetrical principle, which is one of the guiding principles of NATO?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, the noble Lord has succinctly and accurately summed up Her Majesty's Government's policy.
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, does not my noble friend realise that all we are doing is to indulge in wishful thinking? In spite of this body of diplomats having met for quite a long time, they are still engaged in exploratory discussions. Does my noble friend really expect anything fruitful to emerge from these discussions? Can I have an assur-ance that the Government will not rely on fruitful prospects as a result of these discussions in their consideration of any reductions in defence expenditure?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, we are not engaged in these extremely difficult and important discussions in any spirit of incautious optimism. These are highly technical and complex discussions, and the question of security is uppermost in the discussions on both sides. I can give the assurances for which my noble friend has asked. As time goes on I think he will see that what he has suggested is born out in practice in the way in which we conduct these negotiations.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: My Lords, would the noble Lord confirm that it would be Her Majesty's Government's firm policy that if any agreement is reached on any force cuts it would be subject to a system of verification?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, there can, of course, be no meaningful disarmament without full inspection and verification.

HALDON OPEN PRISON
LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will reconsider their decision to shut the open prison at Haldon.
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH: My Lords, the decision to close Haldon has been taken after a careful review of prison accommodation and the current and likely future composition of the prison population. There have also been local difficulties at Haldon which have for some time prevented the full use of the accommodation. Her Majesty's Government do not believe it would be right, taking all factors into account, to retain Haldon as an active establishment.
LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. Would he not agree that it is a retrograde step if reformable prisoners at present in open prisons were to be forced back to enclosed prisons where, by association, they are likely to become hardened criminals? So far as this case is concerned, in the area of Chudleigh Haldon, where the prison has been both accepted and in cases welcomed, it seems pathetic that it should be closed. I am sure that, realising the difficulties and the resultant public outcry surrounding the opening of a new prison the Government will see that it is a pity to close this one. While they may still want to close it, would they not consider making it an establishment for young adult offenders as recommended in the Advisory Report?
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH: My Lords, the Government did consider this matter carefully. As the noble Lord is aware, their consideration covered not only this one but a number of other open establishments. The reason for the Government's decision—if I may trouble the House with the figures concerned—is that in the 12 male open prisons operating in 1973 the average number of prisoners in the first six months of this year was about 3,200, but the amount of accommodation available was for 4,236. Clearly it was not sensible to continue a situation in which a substantial amount of accommodation was not being used. One of the reasons it was not being used is that when planning inquiries took place and these establishments were to be opened assurances were given that certain categories of prisoners would in no circumstances be sent to them. So in

781
the case of Haldon, for example, the Home Office had to give an assurance that prisoners who had been convicted of any offence of violence or for sexual crimes would not be sent there. That indicates to the noble Lord the difficulties involved.

E.E.C. COUNCIL OF MINISTERS MEETING
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, with the leave of the House, at a convenient moment after 3.30 p.m. my noble friend Lord Goronwy-Roberts will be making a Statement on the E.E.C. Council of Ministers meeting.

DISTRICT COURTS (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Hughes, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to make provision as respects district courts and justices of the peace in Scotland, to amend Sections 28 and 29 of the Licensing (Scotland) Act 1959; and for connected purposes. My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Strabolgi.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

STANDING ORDERS (PRIVATE BILLS)
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): My Lords, I beg to move the first Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That a Select Committee on the Standing Orders be appointed, and that, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:—

Lord Chancellor (L. Elwyn-Jones),

E. Lauderdale,

L. Airedale,

L. Alport,

B. Bacon,

L. Cawley,

L. Derwent,

L. Terrington.

—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SPECIAL ORDERS
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider all such Special Orders as are referred to them and that as proposed by the Committee of Selection the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:—

E. Cork and Orrery,

E. Cowley,

L. Archibald,

B. Bacon,

L. Beaumont of Whitley,

L. Cawley,

L. Clwyd,

L. Fletcher,

L. Reay,

L. Stamp,

L. Stow Hill,

L. Teviot,

L. Wise:

and that until further order—

(a) the Committee shall not take into consideration any Special Order unless it has been referred to them by the Chairman of Committees on the ground that it appears to him that the Order would, but for the provisions of the Act authorising the making of the Special Order, require to be enacted by a Private or Hybrid Bill;

(b) if the Committee are of the same opinion as the Chairman of Committees, that is to say, that the Special Order is of the kind described in Standing Order 216(3)(b) paragraphs (4) and (6) of that Order shall apply, but with the omission from paragraph (6) of the words "In every case" to the end;

c) if the Committee are not of that opinion, they shall report that fact to the House forthwith and shall take no further action on the Special Order;

(d) Standing Order 216(8) shall have effect as though for the words "of the Special Orders Committee thereon" there were substituted the words "thereon of the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments and (in the case of any Special Order referred to the Special Orders Committee) that of the Special Orders Committee."—(The Earl of Listowel.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

PERSONAL BILLS
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I beg to move the third Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That a Select Committee on Personal Bills be appointed, to which all Petitions for Personal Bills shall stand referred; and that, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:—

E. Mansfield,

L. Cross of Chelsea,

L. Henley,

L. Mancroft,

L. Stow Hill,

L. Wilberforce.

—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

WAR ON WASTE
3.3 p.m.
LORD DARLING OF HILLSBOROUGH LORD DARLING OF HILLSBOROUGH rose to call attention to the Green Paper War on Waste—A Policy for Reclamation (Cmnd. 5727); and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I do not know whether it is very unusual for a debate of this kind to be opened with a maiden speech. I am pleased to see that the letter "M" is not against my name on the list of speakers. I should explain that on the many subjects discussed here during the last few weeks this is my first opportunity to make a non-partisan speech. Now that the opportunity comes along my noble friends have prevailed upon me to open the debate. In the circumstances I think I cannot ask for the usual indulgence; I hope any noble Lords wishing to interrupt me will not hesitate to do so. But my noble friends fail to realise the difficulty that I and the House are in, because this is a very wide subject. It covers wide-ranging social policies involving clearing up the environment. It is concerned with a large group of industries having an annual turnover of about £2,000 million, and we are seeking ways and means of doubling that figure.
We are also examining many exciting new projects to make better use of waste, ranging from fish farms and animal feed
784
to new types of materials that can be created from the waste that is now considered useless and which we throw away. The Green Paper presents a comprehensive policy for the recovery of useful materials from industrial waste and domestic refuse. That is its purpose. It is not a complete policy as expressed in the Green Paper. It sets out clearly enough what might be achieved from widespread reclamation and indicates the lines of action that could be followed to attain the maximum extraction of useful materials.
But this statement of policy is just the beginning. As the Green Paper points out, it is the basis of what must quickly become a national drive to cut down waste and promote ways of recovering and re-utilising the materials. It rests on three essential objectives. First, to stop pollution, poisoning the land and water courses with the dumping of toxic wastes; to stop the poisoning effluent that goes into so many of our streams and rivers; and also to stop poisoning the air with the emission of chemical fumes. Secondly, to stop squandering the many scarce industrial materials that are likely to be worked out within a short space of time unless new world resources can be found. Thirdly, to ease our balance of payments by extracting from our own resources materials that we import on too lavish a scale.
I am sure that no one in the country will quarrel with those objectives. What we have to consider is how we achieve them and what needs to be done to make sure that everything that it would pay us to get from our resources will be extracted. All these matters are interdependeni. It is necessary to show in essentially practical ways how each type of waste or refuse can be usefully treated and processed, and then, by using what the Green Paper calls "incentives and disincentives", compel or persuade industries and local authorities to go in for large-scale reclamation on the basis of practical research and development.
It is not difficult to see what is likely to happen if we properly use the "incentives and disincentives" that the Green Paper indicates, or more or less hints at, not spelling anything out at this stage, which is understandable because the range of activity that is involved here is so vast it would be impossible to go into all

785
the details in a document of this size. But let me take first the local authorities and the difficulties and the possibilities that they have. Your Lordships will know that under the Local Government Acts district councils are given the responsibility of collecting refuse, most of it domestic, some of it industrial waste, while the county authorities have the job of disposing of it. Under the Control of Pollution Act the county authorities have to designate the disposal sites, arrange some form of control over them, and put their plans forward to the Department of the Environment for approval. The Act says that they may engage in reclamation, but this is obviously a long-term prospect which is not expected to be included in any immediate plans which the local authorities put forward.
We can already see what is happening and what is likely to happen. The so-called controlled sites will still be dumping places for untreated and often poisonous waste. There is a report in the papers this week which tells us that toxic chemicals and waste oil are being dumped in controlled lagoons in Essex at the rate of 1,000 road tankers a week. This is going on all over the country, though perhaps not quite on that scale. But the point I am making is that it is going into controlled sites. Even when a county authority takes a sterner view of its responsibilities, as in the case of my own county of South Yorkshire, this does not stop the dumping of rubbish; it just puts the sites in more suitable places for rubbish disposal. Because reclamation is very largely an economic problem, which I will refer to later, it is well to look at the cost of providing suitable dumping sites. South Yorkshire conveniently provide the figures for us as they have just published their programme for the next two years. In this relatively small county they are going to open up 25 sites in the next two years, which will be carefully fenced and screened with trees, manned all around the clock, at a cost of £400,000. It is well to bear figures of that magnitude in mind, because in the final calculations of the economics of reclamation these social costs must be taken into account when we decide whether or not propositions for better reclamation are going to pay for themselves.
Of course, it is better to extract usable and saleable materials from this waste, rather than dump it, if only to offset that social cost; but because local authorities have not been given any guidance on the types of treatment plants that they could establish, or any guidance at all on whether or not they will get any financial aid for this kind of project, they are, as in South Yorkshire, more or less inviting the community to go on dumping their old bicycles, tin cans, domestic appliances and other discarded materials, but only on selected sites. No other change is made. So that the lead, the zinc, the mercury from batteries, the copper and aluminium from electric apparatus and old saucepans, the steel from washing machines and so on, and all the plastic, rubber, paper, glass and everything else which could be usefully extracted will go on being buried. This is a foolish policy that must be ended as soon as we can possibly get round to doing it. At some point—and this is where the disincentives come in—we must have a legal prohibition on this kind of dumping.
One can understand the Government's reluctance at this stage to impose a duty on local authorities to set up treatment plants instead of using these dumps. Not enough research has been done, in this country at any rate, to find the most suitable types of treatment plant. There are many operating overseas that we could look at to see whether they could operate in this country; and I am glad to note from recent Government statements that the money and the facilities available at the Government's Warren Springs Laboratory are to be extended to do this kind of work. There are, however, two propositions which I think should be borne in mind, which emerge from research and practical experience. The first concerns the separation of waste, and here I disagree with some of the propositions in the Green Paper. Apart from waste paper, it is a mistake to believe that housewives will separate domestic refuse into different containers. They have tried experiments in other countries, such as in the United States, but apart from paper—and even that not on a 100 per cent. basis—it simply does not work. So that separation of the different types of waste, which is really the beginning of treatment and extraction processes, will have to be done mechanically.
This means—and we had better look at the figures—going back to my county of South Yorkshire, that that county will have to set up one or more treatment plants, if we are to have, as I suggest, mechanical separation and sorting, to deal with something like 1,500 tons of domestic refuse every day; and if, as will almost certainly happen, the plant has also to take in a lot of industrial waste, the daily quantity will perhaps be double that figure. This is a very big operation, but instead of spending £400,000 on just getting sites for this purpose I think it would be better—though I do not know what the figures are—to, shall I say, treble the sum and set up the treatment plants, because that is what is needed.
Of course, one then comes to the question of whether we can afford it. Money is tight, and the Government do not want to spend much more money on public enterprises of this kind; but they clearly involve considerable capital investment. The other proposition which I say we should bear in mind—and I have no time to elaborate it, so I must ask that my word be taken for it at this stage—is that every kind of domestic and industrial waste can be processed to produce usable materials for recycling or for clean landfill, or for anything. Nothing need be wasted, but whether we need treatment plants that recover everything depends, of course, upon the economic factors involved.
My Lords, let me try to put this in perspective by looking briefly at the con- servation aspect. Geologists tell us, as I mentioned before, that the world's deposits of some materials—copper, lead, zinc and so on—will be completely worked out at the present rate of con-sumption within 20 to 50 years unless new resources are found. It is an alarming prospect; and it would be danger-ously foolish in my opinion to imagine that new deposits will be found, perhaps in the sea-bed, and to rely on that, rather than to conserve what we have to the best of our ability; or to imagine that adequate substitutes will be found during this very short period. I think that complacency of this kind is completely fatuous.
Furthermore, a new factor has now to be taken into account. Most of the
788
deposits that we are working for these scarce materials are in the emerging, underdeveloped countries, and they have just been given a very good example, in the case of Middle East oil, of what they should do to conserve their resources and to get a bigger return for what they sell out of their own countries. The tin producers have had buffer-stock arrangements to keep prices stable as far as possible, but those arrangements have now been seen to be inadequate. The bauxite producers in the Caribbean are getting together to control their own supplies and the prices that they will get for them. None of them intends to leave the prices for the things they sell, or to leave the quantities that they can sell, to speculative commodity markets. They are going to be closed—not immediately, but this is a prospect that we must bear in mind when we are thinking of what we can get out of our own resources. It seems to me that we would serve our own national interest by extracting from waste all the scarce materials we possibly can instead of throwing the stuff away.
The metal industries' figures are in the Green Paper. The metal industries recover very large proportions of waste, most of it arising from their own works processes, but they would clearly be far better off with nearer to 100 per cent. recovery than the figures given in the Green Paper. I do not think I need to stress the balance-of-payments case for reducing imports. The figures I have given of what is now euphemistically called "being saved" by using our own indigenous waste to produce raw material is around £2,000 million a year. The Green Paper postulates that by an expansion of present methods of dealing with waste this can be increased by about £400 million (some people put it as high as £500 million) a year. But what we really must aim at is to double, if we can, that figure of import saving, something from £2,000 million to £4,000 million.
We have a large reclamation industry at work; it employs very sophisticated plant, and to think of the Steptoe image in terms of these operations is completely wrong. There is £65 million worth of capital plant being used in the reclamation industries and they employ something like 50,000 workers, so there is a good basis for expansion. I do not want

789
to go much further; I have tried to present very briefly and inadequately the social and conservationist arguments for a concerted reclamation policy.
I now want to look at the industrial problems which industries must face in utilising recycled materials on a larger scale than at present. For a policy of this kind, as explained in the Green Paper, the most serious difficulty, if we are to have massive reclamation schemes, lies in reconciling the inelastic supply of recycled materials to the elastic demands of the products of the using industries. It was this operation of market forces that destroyed the paper salvage scheme after the War when all the pulp that the paper mills required could be obtained from abroad at lower costs than were involved in bringing waste paper into the mills and the processes for dealing with waste paper; so they stopped taking waste paper and local authorities stopped collecting it. The mills now require waste paper because of the high price of pulp, so the salvage schemes are being started again.
However, if the local authorities, the scrap merchants and the waste processors are geared up for an almost complete recovery of the materials about which we are speaking and they are using expensive plant for the purpose then they cannot operate on a "stop-go" basis. Their supplies should be regular and they will need long-term contracts in prices and deliveries so that everything which they collect, process and make available will be taken. But if the using-industries' markets weaken and if import costs fall below the contract prices for reclaimed material then the contracts which they make will be a financial burden. Most scrap is difficult to store. It is bulky and most of it deteriorates in store. Therefore we have to find an answer to this dilemma.
I think the answer is twofold: first of all, wherever it is possible to do so the scrap should go through a primary process for easier storing, perhaps with some fiscal relief—I think this may be necessary—to cover the storage costs. Secondly, the contracts should include some kind of deficiency payments scheme so that if import prices fall below the cost of home supplies this can be covered. We have operated it before in agriculture and I regret that we got rid of it. This
790
is the same problem. A national reclamation policy cannot operate except in guaranteed markets. They must have stability. This need not be costly. The British Steel Corporation, for instance, would have been about £15 million better-off a year or so ago if instead of cutting off scrap supplies when the market for steel went down it had still continued to take scrap and had turned it into ingots which can be fairly easily stored. Fifteen million pounds is the price that had to be paid to import ingots of semi-finished steel and also to cover the fact that the orders they could have taken could not have been fulfilled because of this lack of steel ingots. I hope that the British Steel Corporation and the steel industry as a whole has learned this lesson.
My Lords, that is very briefly the Green Paper's outline of what we must seek to achieve, but its policy is still to be initiated and developed. The policy document is only a blueprint at this stage and there must be some authority to ensure that so far as possible it is put into operation. The Green Paper proposes that the planning of these developments and, as it were, operating the policy should be assigned to a Waste Management Advisory Council. I suppose it would be composed of some representatives of the local authorities, the reclamation industries, the industries that create waste, the industries which use waste, everybody who is engaged in research on this business—a kind of representative council that I am sure your Lordships will agree could become a useless mass meeting. It needs to have some kind of Executive. I hope it will be small enough to be effective. It will not be an effective body unless its advice is backed by some authority to put it into operation.
The Green Paper proposes that that authority should be invested in the Department of the Environment and the Department of Industry, and here I should like to say how pleased I am that the Government have appointed two Ministers with special responsibilities in this field. I suppose that the two Ministers when they sit in control of this Advisory Council will give the Council a very big programme of work to be carried out: first of all, a comprehensive plan of research. As I said, far too little is being undertaken in this country and it

791
is spread over too many Governmental, industrial and university institutions.
According to my reckoning—and I may be wrong about this, I have tried to calculate it as carefully as I can—there are fewer than 50 scientists and technicians in the whole country engaged on work of this kind, and much of their work is being duplicated because nobody is coordinating it. It needs to be co-ordinated and the gaps need to be filled. The research does not need to start from scratch in all cases because much has been done overseas, particularly in the United States, and the results are freely available. But I would press the Government—and I hope I have support in this—to go ahead without delay and appoint the Advisory Council. I do not think legislation is needed for it; I think it can be done by Government decision, but in any case we want it set up quickly and with sufficient finance for the work to be started with an adequate staff.
My Lords, I have spoken for too long but I have not covered all the ground which the Green Paper covers. I have dealt with only a small part of an immense field. I have not mentioned the work that still needs to be done to find substitute materials, and to achieve the redesigning of products so that reclamation and recycling can be done far more easily and cheaply than it is now. Nor have I dealt with the problem, which I am sure will be referred to in the debate, of excessive packaging, which is a burden on all the waste disposal authorities in the country. I have not entered a plea which I think needs to be developed—I mentioned it only casually—for the Government to give a lead by requiring a proportion of recycled waste to be included in all the possible materials which they purchase, starting with paper. Indeed, the more one examines the whole subject of reclamation, the more one sees that the prospect which opens is for a big industrial expansion in many new fields, based on our own industries and our own indigenous resources and operated for the nation's economic benefit.
My Lords, I conclude by trying to answer the question that I posed: can we afford the capital investment involved and the many changes in industrial processes which will have to follow? I am convinced that from every aspect—a cleaner
792
environment, the saving of scarce materials and the improvement of our balance of payments—we cannot afford to neglect the opportunities presented here for going ahead with the policy set out in the Green Paper. My Lords, I beg to move for Papers.
3.33 p.m.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, I should like to start by complimenting the noble Lord on his speech. But I think that I must first address myself to the noble Baroness, Lady Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, and make three points. First of all, I think it is unheard of—certainly, it has been so in my fifteen years' experience of the House—for a noble Lord to make his maiden speech in introducing a debate before he has spoken in another one. Secondly, I think all noble Lords, particularly those taking part in this debate, would want me to protest at the fact that the letter "M" is missing from the noble Lord's name on the list. Thirdly, I wish to protest on my own behalf in that, having inquired from the noble Baroness's office yesterday whether or not this was a maiden speech, I was told it was not. Having said that, may I acquit the noble Lord himself of any blame in this procedural matter. He is a newcomer—and a very welcome one—to our House and cannot possibly be held to blame. I should like to go on immediately and to—
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, may I say at once that, in the first place, the entire responsibility is mine. I had inquired and I thought that in the mélée of the last Session the noble Lord had "broken his duck". I was wrong about that and take the entire responsibility for it, and I apologise for any embarrassment that my noble friend has suffered. However, may I say to the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, that what has been done is not, in fact, unheard of. It is certainly the custom of the House that this does not happen, but it is not unheard of. Nevertheless, I take entire responsibility. I apologise to my noble friend that the magic letter "M" is not after his name, but I think that all noble Lords present will know that his is a maiden speech.
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, the whole House will be grateful to the noble Baroness, I am sure, and I am only sorry

793
that this matter should have intervened in this debate. I want to go on immediately to compliment the noble Lord on his maiden speech, and to say how much the whole House will value it. Last time we were debating this subject four and a half years ago on a Motion of my noble friend Lady Emmet of Amberley, I believe that the noble Lord had just become, or had just been invited to become, chairman of a group established by the waste trades to go into this whole business, and we are therefore particularly glad to have the benefit of his experience in that field and to know that he retains his interest in the subject. The noble Lord's speech was marked by a close knowledge of the subject and incisiveness, the lack of which would be one of my criticisms of the Green Paper. In any case, we are very glad to hear him address us and look forward to his doing so again on many future occasions.
My Lords, I have not yet had the opportunity from the Dispatch Box personally to welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Birk, to the environmental arena. I am glad that she is there now and that we have a Minister in this House who can address herself wholeheartedly to this large field. I am sure that she will have already discovered that doing battle on fronts which fully occupy six or seven Ministers in another place calls for nimbleness and versatility, and for many other qualities as well. I should like to wish her well and I think we can pledge our support in a number of fields on which she will be speaking to us, though we cannot guarantee her an easy ride on every occasion.
To turn to the subject of waste, this is now, rightly, a matter for earnest concern, if not one that arouses passionate debate like some other topics with which we have to deal, even when a clarion call to a war on waste is made as in a Green Paper. Nevertheless, it is an important subject and in the last few months and years it has become much more urgent than it was when my noble friend Lady Emmet of Amberley put it before us four and a half years ago. The concern to husband carefully the world's resources, all of which are finite, was widely thought until recently to be a sphere for devoted cranks and rather impractical visionaries. Now, and particularly since last winter when so many
794
basic commodities—not only oil—have so vastly increased in price, the need for better husbandry is a matter of the greatest practical moment, not just for prophets and visionaries, but for practical statesmen.
The public adjustment to the realities which we now face in the conservation of resources is already becoming a painful process for us. It now affects us all. It affects many more in the less favoured countries, and affects them far more painfully than it does us at the moment. But the inconvenience which we now feel in this country and the suffering that many more already endure elsewhere, are as nothing compared to what we, and, even more, our successors, will face if we do not now come to terms with the need to conserve the resources which we have on this planet, to share them more widely and to use them less wastefully. The avoiding of waste in the first instance and the re-use of avoidable waste are essential and integral parts of this husbandry and stewardship of resources. In so far as this Green Paper signifies a determination by the Government to grapple in a resolute way with the proper husbandry of resources, it is most welcome, and I would assure the noble Baroness that she can count on our support for any sensible measures that are proposed in due course.
The Waste Management Advisory Council and the Advisory Group on Waste Paper Recycling, the two bodies mentioned in the Paper, will have our best wishes for the work set before them when they have been established. I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Birk, will be able to-day to go beyond what her right honourable friend Mr. Howell said in another place last May about the intention to set them up. We have now their terms of reference and we need to know in addition who they are, when they are going to start work and how they are going to approach their first pieces of work.
To turn to the Green Paper, I think it is as well for the noble Baroness that my noble friend the late Lord Conesford is not here, because I think he would have found this Paper much too full of platitudes for his liking. It is one of a shower of Papers which came out between the last two Elections, and has all the

795
marks of having been cobbled together rather hurriedly and before a good deal of the detailed work that needs to be done was ready to be done. In fact, much of the information in this Paper is a good deal less precise than the information put before the House in our last debate by the then Minister, the late Lord Delacourt-Smith. There is not a great deal that is new, nor is there a great deal that is very incisive, but there are a number of emphases that are either missing or false; but these are points I shall come to in a moment. The topic which forms an integral part of the urgent and important task of husbanding world resources, and those of this Kingdom in particular, deserves more penetrating treatment than it gets in this Paper.
I should like now to turn to some of the missing and false emphases, as I would see them. The Paper rightly makes the point in five or six places that one of the most urgent things to do is to see that products are designed to last longer. A waste prevention policy, I would say, comes first, before a waste policy; that is, a policy which seeks in a number of practical ways to reduce significantly the excessive number of "throw-away" products which are deliberately designed not to last.
The first specific question I should like to ask the noble Baroness to answer, if she can. is whether the terms of reference of the WMAC, set out on page 30, do or do not embrace this field. It is suggested that they should have regard to the best use of resources. Does that mean that they are to address themselves to the formulation of policies secured to achieve that end? I am not sufficiently confident that such is the case. If it is not so, whose job is it to do that?—because it seems to me that the first step in the war on waste is not as stated at Chapter 2, paragraph 23, on page 7, that we must at least endeavour to recover everything that can be made to pay for the cost of reclamation. That is not the first step. The first step is to avoid the unnecessary creation of waste. In paragraph 20 of Chapter 2 the Paper makes the rather coy statement that—
"… market forces may in some cases even favour the more extravagant, shorter-lived product …"
796
Of course that is so. In fact, there is often a deliberate manipulation of market forces to do exactly that. So that is one field where I think the emphasis is wrong. I am not satisfied that the terms of reference are right and I should be grateful if the noble Baroness could say more about them.
Another point where I believe the emphasis to be wrong is to put so much on a widespread, indiscriminate and universal campaign of activity and publicity. For example, in Chapter 3 paragraph 12 we read the confident recommendation—and this was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Darling—that taking care of waste paper is one of the things we could do better if separate collection by local authorities were arranged. The issues regarding waste paper are set out in Chapter 3, paragraphs 14 to 19. Your Lordships devoted a lot of time to this during our last debate and in fact the late Lord Delacourt-Smith was able to go into rather more detail on that occasion than the Paper does here. But the wrong approach to this kind of thing—and I give this only as an example—is advocated over and over again in this Paper. We have in paragraph 15 on page 10 talk of "a major concerted effort"; and in paragraph 25 of Chapter 3 "the greatest possible public participation" is mentioned. In Chapter 6, paragraph 12 we have a refererce to "a major publicity campaign". The late Lord Delacourt-Smith said when we were last debating this that more than comprehensive, indiscriminate and universal campaigns we need well planned local campaigns and well planned local activity which are designed to deal with the local sources of supply and waste material and the local markets. I hope that the noble Baroness will be able to confirm that it is that approach, rather than the broad-brush one, which the Government will in the end favour.
I should like to turn to one other emphasis which I think is missing from this Paper and which ought to be there. That concerns the reclamation of waste land. The Aberfan disaster was very near to our minds four years ago, and this topic was well to the fore; but here only in Chapter 3, paragraph 24 is there a mention of waste land, and that is as a possible place on which to tip other waste material. But, my Lords, I would put it to you that in this country of all countries—so densely populated—the

797
reclamation of waste land is a matter of major importance, and the need to ensure more positive use of it for all sorts of purposes, but especially in the urban fringe for recreation (which is where a lot of the dereliction lies), is particularly important. I should be grateful, and I believe others would be, too, if the noble Baroness could say more about this and about the progress which is being made, including which of the main reclamation authorities are up to their target on clearing the worst by 1980, and what is going on about putting it to more positive uses. In that connection, could the noble Baroness tell us, too, about the progress of the Verney Committee on the use of aggregates, and particularly the use of waste material for building purposes? The Building Research Station has done a lot of research on which waste materials can be used in what way for what building purposes, and now it is a question of getting the construction industry to use these materials more frequently. This is another example of the kind of policy which the noble Lord, Lord Darling, was advocating, and I was glad that he stressed it.
Finally—and this is another major criticism, I fear—I do not detect in the Green Paper what I would assume to be a more fruitful understanding by the Government of the role of voluntary bodies in all this. I am sure this is not the stage, in this particular field at any rate, at which to regard the voluntary bodies as auxiliaries and supplementary agencies to what the local authorities are doing. What is much more necessary at this stage is for the voluntary bodies to stimulate and prod the local authorities into action where they are inactive, and to criticise policies where they are wrong. This is a much more uncomfortable role for Central Government and local government, but I think it is the right role for the voluntary bodies to adopt at this stage in this field. I should like to know what plans the Government have for stimulating and encouraging the work of voluntary bodies in this field, and what particular bodies, and also what mechanism of support and assistance they have in mind. Effective liaison at local level—which is the phrase the Paper uses—may not be right particularly if it is as cosy as chapter 3, paragraph 26 suggests. That is the kind of phrasing which indicates to me that the Government at
798
the moment are misjudging the most effective role for voluntary bodies in this field.
My Lords, I am afraid I have concentrated, as I think it is right for the Opposition to do, on the points about this Paper which I want to criticise. All sides welcome the fact that the Paper has come out at all and the indications in it that the Government take this matter seriously and intend to do something about it. They will welcome it even more if the noble Baroness is able to take us beyond what we read in this Green Paper.

EEC COUNCIL OF MINISTERS' MEETING
3.51 p.m.
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, with the permission of the House, I should like to repeat a Statement being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary. The Statement reads as follows:
"At the meeting of the Council of Ministers on November 12 I discussed with my Community colleagues the long-term problems we are facing over sugar and also our renegotiation request concerning the British contribution to the Community budget. The remaining items on the agenda were dealt with by right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Trade and by my honourable friend Mr. Roy Hattersley, Minister of State at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.
"The House will be glad to know that the Council reached provisional agreement on a mandate to the Commission for negotiations with the developing Commonwealth sugar producing countries. The mandate concerns the arrangements for their sugar exports to the Community from 1975 onwards.
"It was agreed that the Community should offer access for 1·4 million tons of sugar a year on a continuing basis.
"The Government were also anxious to secure that the bulk of the 1·4 million tons should come to the United Kingdom for refining in order to assist the cane refining industry. I am glad to say that the Council accepted that in practice the great bulk of the sugar

799
would be exported to the Community in accordance with traditional channels of trade. It follows that British refineries will get the bulk of the sugar delivered to Europe by the Common-wealth producers.
"There was considerable discussion on the price that should be paid for the sugar. It was understood that a fair price will have to be offered if supplies are to be secured. But this is a matter which is closely related to the Community's internal sugar regime and it was decided that the Agriculture Ministers should settle this at their meeting on November 18–19.
"The Agriculture Ministers will also have to look at the question of the duration of the agreement with the sugar supplying countries. We take the view that the arrangement should be for a number of years in order to safeguard the interests of both our traditional Commonwealth suppliers and our own cane refining industry. This view is accepted by the other members.
"When the Council of Agriculture Ministers reach agreement on a final mandate at their meeting next week the informal consultations which the Commission has already been conducting with the supplying countries will then be turned into formal negotiations with a view to reaching an early agreement.
"I also carried further the discussion of our contribution to the Community budget. The House will recall that the Commission were asked by the Council on June 4 to produce a Report. A copy of this was placed in the Library of the House on October 29, and was before the Council yesterday. It broadly supported the two main contentions in my speech of June 4. First, Britain is already below the Community average as far as income per head is concerned and, because it is expected that our growth rate will continue to be below the Community average, for the time being, our income per head will decline further before, as we hope, it starts to climb back again. Second, our contribution to the Community budget is going to be substantially above our fair share in relation to the Community's total GDP. This situation must be remedied. Though I
800
made it clear that we were ready to consider solutions to deal with the problem, I suggested that the Community might accept as a principle that member states with below-average GDP per head should not bear a share of the burden of financing the Community budget disproportionate with their share of the Community's GDP.
"The first reactions of the other Governments were varied. But I noted in a number of speeches round the table that my analysis was not disputed. There is still a long way to go before we find out whether all concerned are ready to agree to a solution which we can accept. The matter will now be discussed intensively in the Community. I would like to be able to make progress towards a solution at the next Council meeting on December 2/3, or, failing that, at the Summit in Paris the following week."
My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
3.57 p.m.
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, I am sure that your Lordships will be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, for repeating that Statement made by his right honourable friend. Regarding the latter part of it which concerned our contribution to the EEC budget, I am sure that it will meet with the accord of most people if a formula i can be found for re-adjusting a contribution made by any member State if the country's share of the community's total GDP is out of line. In a developing and flexible Community that must be so. Am I to understand that there is general agreement within the Community on that principle, and that the only difference arises on the specific issue of what our contribution should be?
Regarding sugar—and this was a very important Statement—the House will be glad to know that the Community agrees in principle to accept 1·4 million tons from the developing countries. The noble Lord will agree that the problem now is to get the developing countries to sell that sugar to the community, and the operative factor there will be price. The Statement says that there should be a fair price. Do I understand correctly that the price will be fixed at the next meeting of the Agricultural Ministers and will then be announced? Or will the price be a

801
negotiable one based on the agreement arrived at with the Ministers on the one hand, and the Caribbean countries on the other? Can the noble Lord say what is the anticipated date for the conclusion of these formal negotiations after the agreement? As I understand it, the Agricultural Ministers are to make their agreement on November 18 and 19 and then give to the Commission the powers to negotiate with the Caribbean countries, and thereafter there will be an agreement. Can the noble Lord give us any idea of when that agreement is likely to be arrived at? As I understand it, until that agreement is arrived at no refiners are in a position to be able to import any sugar into this country—and the time-scale is already extremely short, being only two months between now and February 1. Can the noble Lord give us the assurance that the time-scale will be such as to ensure that there will be adequate time for this sugar to be loaded and brought into the country and into the refineries before February 1?
4 p.m.
LORD LLOYD OF KILGERRAN: My Lords, may I thank the noble Lord the Minister for repeating the Statement here, and may I also ask a few questions in regard to the time element and the price element? The Statement says that it was agreed that the Community should offer access for 1·4 million tons. Would the Minister be able to say to whom this offer will be made? Will it be made to the new Association which I think has been formed of about 44 different countries—countries in Africa, the Caribbean and the Pacific—and can he give any indication as to the time element involved in making this offer? Then there is the second aspect of the continuing basis of that Agreement. Are the EEC Ministers going to propose to that Association or to any particular country that the basis should be for a period of five or seven years? As to price, would it be possible for the noble Lord to indicate that the price which will have to be paid by the United Kingdom will be much less than the fair price which may have to be paid by the EEC?
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, would the noble Lord—
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, perhaps it would be for the con-
802
venience of the House if I addressed myself to the two rather substantial contributions which we have just heard. I am grateful to both noble Lords, and to the noble Lord opposite who has deferred his contribution for the moment. In reply to the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, may I say that we have no preferred solution in regard to tackling the budgetary imbalance with which we are concerned. As I think he impliedly hoped we would, we shall certainly listen to and consider any proposal which will implement the principle of equity of contribution. This will in no way affect the question of the gestre tour which concerned some of our friends in the Community, and i think it is the right way to go about it to establish a basic equity of contribution, whichever way it is done. We shall consider any proposal to that effect.
I turn now to sugar. We believe there is agreement in principle. It is, as the noble Earl said, a question of supply. Access is one thing; availability may well be another. However, we have fair confidence that up to 1·4 million tons will be available as well as capable of access during the period that we mentioned. The operative factor is, as he has said, that of price. We define it as a fair and realistic price to the countries concerned, which invariably depend, perhaps disproportionately, on this commodity. We would hope, therefore—we would expect, therefore—that the Community will have regard to the dependence of these countries on this one commodity when they approach the question of price. As the noble Earl knows, we ourselves have said that we will start at £140 a ton, which is somewhat in excess of the existing commodity price per ton. But as he pointed out, duration is also operative here. I would not wish to prejudge the discussions of next Monday or the negotiations that will follow on the meeting of the Council of Agriculture Ministers next Monday, but I think he made an important point about duration. It could be that these countries would find in a fairly long duration of guarantee of access and of supply a reason for perhaps being fairly flexible on price. One would not wish to prejudge the negotiations.
As to the date of conclusion, I agree that this is immensely important both from the point of view of our refineries,

803
which depend on the availability of this sugar, and also from the point of view of our housewives. I cannot give a firm guarantee, but this much I can say with confidence: we expect that as soon as the parameters of negotiation have been settled next Monday and the Commission then proceed on the authority of the Agriculture Ministers to the actual negotiations, conclusion will be reached fairly soon so that the implementation of the new Agreement can follow equally soon after that. The noble Earl has underlined the need for swiftness in these negotiations; and I believe that my right honourable friend has impressed this upon our partners in the Community.
To turn to my noble friend Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, I agree with him also that access is one thing; availability may well be another with the world price being what it is, escalating almost every day. However, for the reasons I have just given to the noble Earl, we have reasonable confidence that the countries which depend upon the sale of this commodity, not now but for the indefinite future, will measure their demands as to price and their willingness to supply against that background. This brings me to the noble Lord's second point, equally important: how long would the time-scale of undertaking to purchase be? Would it be for some years—five years? I would say at least five years, and, we would hope, indefinitely. We interpret the words, "on a continuing basis" as being indefinitely. These are countries which the Community, like the United Kingdom, recognise as being overly dependent upon this sugar industry. I have dealt with price in what I said in reply to the noble Earl.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, the noble Lord is very optimistic about supply. The present price of sugar would repre-sent an import cost of at least £700 million. Neither Britain nor Europe can possibly afford that. From the bargaining point of view, would it not be much better to have sugar rationing in this country so that we could show to the producers that we really mean business to get sugar at a reasonable price? Otherwise I think we shall not get the sugar unless we pay the world price.
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are not yet persuaded that there is a case for
804
sugar rationing. As to the price, we all know of course that the world price is very high indeed and may go higher yet. However, in regard to making good the shortfall of supply to this country as a Member of the EEC, as the noble Lord knows, the Community has agreed to make a subsidy available.
LORD LEE OF NEWTON: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that some of us are happy that he saw the point of the enormous importance of this Agreement to our friends in the Pacific and in the Caribbean? But is he further aware that sugar refining capacity in this country alone is some 1·7 milliontons—in other words we have 300,000 tons from Australia which are not now under consideration—and it is therefore vital that we should stress the need for practically the whole of the 1·4 million tons to come into this country for refining? Otherwise, there will be pretty heavy unemployment in the refining industry.
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, the Statement I read made it clear that the great bulk of the 1·4 million tons, which is now guaranteed to have access to this country, would in fact come to us through the normal channels of trade and in that way be available to our refining industry. This is one of the primary objectives of our negotiations earlier this week in Brussels.
My noble friend is quite right when he says that the normal amount of sugar from both ECP and Australian sources is not 1·4 million but 1·7 million tons. The 1·4 million tons is the guarantee which in every part of the House we have all agreed we should try to get in order to sustain the economy and the wellbeing of the countries to which I have referred. However, the 300,000 tons—the 0·3 million represented by the, so far, non-availability of Australian sugar—will be the subject of discussion, possibly of negotiation, in the coming weeks. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister made it clear in the House on November 7 that that is still a very live possibility.
LORD DAVIES OF LEEK: My Lords, may I refer to the question of rationing. Is my noble friend aware that some of us pointed out this difficulty during the debates upon our entry into the Common Market? The question was not studied in depth. I do not wish evil upon those

805
who voted for entry, but I hope that they go without any sugar in their Christmas puddings this Christmas! May I ask the noble Lord whether any further discussion was carried on regarding the acreage of sugar beet, because, as my noble friend has pointed out, there will be in the region of tens of thousands of jobs which will not be held unless we can obtain about 1·7 million tons of sugar. This was pointed out in an excellent and constructive article in the Sunday Times on the sugar problem. I should like to know whether the sugar beet position, and acreage, were discussed at the Common Market discussions this week.
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, they were not discussed specifically, but the background contains the facts about our own beet shortfalls in production to which my noble friend has referred. We are some 300,000 tons down on what we would normally expect to achieve from our own beet production. That is because of disease. However, the A and B quotas which the Community has granted to this country are very favourable indeed if we can. or care, to achieve them. Under the A category we shall go from 900,000 to 1,050,000 tons (which is a substantial percentage increase in terms of the resources of the industry, manpower and all the rest); and under the B category there will be another 460,000 tons, which represents a very big jump indeed. Therefore one is not unduly anxious about the future of the beet sugar contribution to our requirements in this country. What I think we must increasingly consider is how we in this country, and secondly the Community, so arrange our indigenous production as to make full use of our resources for this purpose in land, manpower and machinery and at the same time honour our pledge, which is a moral and practical one, to the countries which overwhelmingly depend upon the production of cane sugar for their very existence.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, are there not two very important elements which would have to be very seriously considered with a view to reaching a reasonable price?—and that is a reasonable price for the Community and also for the sugar producing countries. One is that these countries are relying mainly upon the production of cane sugar for
806
their existence. The fact is that over the last two or three years there has been a very high increase in the price of other raw materials and commodities which they would need to sustain their livelihood. Secondly, due to inflation, is it not also a fact that they have had to pay much higher prices for vehicles and tractors—that is, for the equipment which they need for developing the production of their cane sugar?
LORD G0R0NWY-R0BERTS: My Lords, that is all very true, and I am grateful to the noble Lord for drawing the attention of the House to those factors.
LORD GORE-BOOTH: My Lords, may I suggest with great respect that the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary is deserving of our congratulations for the progress he has made at this very important meeting. May I also make the comment that I was very glad to hear in the Statement that our relative poverty is described as something in regard to which we shall eventually turn the corner. I say this because in other Statements it has been suggested that we should remain in perpetual poverty. Finally, with even more respect, the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary used some battle metaphors in his public relations; and, of course, if one is negotiating within a few miles of Waterloo that is quite natural. However, may I suggest that it should be made clear constantly that this is a battle among friends.
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I think that has become increasingly obvious as the renegotiation has proceeded. I recall saying in this House that my right honourable friend speaks frankly and precisely at the conference table, and I believe that the great respect that his partners in Europe hold for him rests upon this fact. May I also agree entirely with my former mentor in the faith which indicates that we are confident that this country will achieve a much bigger percentage GDP in the years that lie ahead than unfortunately we have at the moment.
LORD BURTON: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether, in view of the heavy cost of sugar now and the heavy cost to our balance of payments, the Government will consider re-opening the sugar beet factory at Cupar?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, that is a question of which I should like further notice.
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord one further question? I am very grateful to him for the way in which he replied to my other question. However, this question is important and it underlines the importance of an earlier settlement. Do I understand that in fact the refiners are not in a position to order any more sugar after February 1 until this settlement has been arrived at between the EEC and the developing countries? If the noble Lord could explain that, I should be grateful.
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, my understanding is that that is not the position. However, it is a question which is of such importance that I should like to confirm my impression, if the noble Earl will allow me to proceed in that way.
LORD CHELWOOD: My Lords, the noble Lord has told us that other important questions were discussed at this meeting. I hope I may raise one other matter with him. Can the noble Lord say whether the question of Parliament's powers was discussed at this meeting? Will it be on the agenda of the Summit meeting? And is the noble Lord aware that successive Summit meetings have paid lip service to the importance of increasing Parliament's powers but that the attitude of the Council of Ministers has been, to put it mildly, lackadaisical? Will Her Majesty's Government use all their influence, therefore, to ensure that there is a real increase in the powers of the European Parliament, particularly where budgetary questions are concerned?
LORD WIGG: My Lords, before the noble Lord replies, will he take it that there is a section of Members of this House—not only members of the Labour Party but others who are outside the Labour Party—who would take the gravest possible exception to the giving of any such assurance?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I should take very grave exception to being prevented from giving certain assurances, including that important questions of the kind which the noble Lord has
808
raised should not have their place on any agenda at which Heads of State meet for discussions.
BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE: My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether, under the heading of "Other Trade Matters" to which he referred in his Statement, regional policy is to be discussed? The previous Select Committee on European Community matters decided not to pursue the papers on regional policy because discussion in the Council was in abeyance. It would be of great help to the new Select Committee if the noble Lord could tell this House whether there is a definite timetable when regional policy will be discussed?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, the agenda for the meeting at which the two points which are the content of the Statement were discussed did, indeed, include such questions as those raised by the noble Lord and regional development questions. How far those questions were discussed, having regard to the urgency of the two matters to which I referred in the Statement, I could not say. However, I should be very glad to make a Statement in one form or another indicating the pace at which these matters were discussed.

WAR ON WASTE
4.20 p.m.
Debate resumed.
VISCOUNT SIMON: My Lords, returning to the war on waste, I should first like to offer my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Darling of Hillsborough, on an excellent maiden speech. I was not quite clear why the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, took such exception to what was done. The noble Lord, Lord Darling, told us in his first sentence that it was a maiden speech so none of us need have been under any misapprehension and, if I may say so, it was just the sort of maiden speech that your Lordships like. It was quite non-controversial and extremely well-informed and well-expressed. I am quite sure that we shall often hear the noble Lord on future occasions, and probably when he gets on to controversial subjects we shall enjoy his speeches even more.

809
This is a suitable occasion to discuss the question of the war on waste, and our thanks are due to the noble Lord for having tabled this Motion; and, indeed, to the two Secretaries of State for having prepared this discussion paper. Of course it is not a complete policy document: it is in a green cover, which we all know means that it is for discussion. At this stage, when we face serious economic problems in this country, I think we would all agree that the elimination of waste could make an important contribution to the improvement in our economic position.
But, my Lords, should we not perhaps be a little ashamed that during the many years of seeming prosperity—I say "seeming prosperity", because I think that sometimes the prosperity was not quite as great as it appeared; and of course we know that prosperity has not been fairly divided in this country—we felt, somehow, that we could afford waste. How dare we at any time say that we can afford waste when there are millions of people living in want in the world? So I believe that the Government's campaign against waste has a moral as well as an economic and environmental basis, and I hope and believe that it will have wide support in Parliament and in the country.
The mechanics which are outlined in the Green Paper are naturally not entirely clear. I instinctively shudder when yet another body is set up—another advisory council—but having shuddered on this occasion I settled down to agreeing that for this purpose it is right to have a body outside any Government Department, examining in depth the many different ways in which the war on waste can be carried on. At one time during the noble Lord's opening speech, I thought he was suggesting that this advisory council had an executive function. But he cleared up that point a little later on, and the executive function rests with the Secretaries of State.
I am not too worried about the terms of reference to which the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, referred. In my experience, if bodies are properly set up with the right people on them they do not take a great deal of notice of their terms of reference; they go and do, or advise, what they think necessary: I hope that the body that it appointed for this purpose
810
will do just that. I agree also with the Green Paper and with the noble Lord, Lord Darling, that local authorities will have an important role to play. But we must remember that each new role costs the ratepayers more money; and, in passing, I think one can emphasise again the need to speed up the investigation into the fundamental reform of local government finance.
There is one point in regard to the role of the local authorities which was mentioned by the noble Lord which I should like to inquire about, perhaps through the noble Baroness who is to reply to this debate. The noble Lord reminded us that the local authorities are required—I think by Statute—to undertake the reception of a certain amount of industrial waste. I wonder whether in this new set-up, at whatever stage it is necessary to introduce legislation, it could be left to industry to be basically responsible for its own wastes. I know that this is a difficult subject and that many industries have extremely difficult problems. But it seems to me that if there is waste in industry—and I shall return to this subject in a few minutes—it is much better for industry to try to deal with it. I agree, of course, with the Green Paper in the suggestion that direct Government aid is needed for research, and this is very welcome.
It is clearly explained in the Green Paper that the problems of reclamation are two-fold—the industrial and the domestic. Industry is already doing a lot and I suggest that active managements know the simple fact that waste is wasteful. But I believe that there is occasionally the feeling that if adequate profit is being made the search for more efficient processes is not worth the trouble and expense; because we must remember that research involves expense which sometimes brings no result. So I hope that the new advisory council will recommend all industries to examine carefully the processes which they are carrying on, to see whether at least some waste can be eliminated.
I had a very interesting experience of this when I shared the responsibility for trying to keep the tidal Thames cleaner. We had tremendous trouble with the paperworks, because the effluent from them was, to put it mildly, pretty damaging to the river.

811
After a great deal of patient discussion and a certain number of veiled threats, some of the paper companies got down to the problem and they discovered that they could not only extract a lot of the offensive material from their effluent, but could use it again to their advantage. I believe that if many industries were to tackle the problem in that light they might find other similar advantages coming to them. This is an example of the secondary effects which we may hope will result from recent anti-pollution legislation. In passing, I might say that that example occurred before the recent legislation was on the Statute Book.
There is a very special problem in regard to mining and quarrying wastes. They form a special category which have a profound impact on the environment. Inevitably, in the process of mining and quarrying some material that is useless for the purpose of a particular enterprise is won. But it costs human effort and money to build up those huge, unsightly slag heaps and if some use can be found for the material some money then comes back to the enterprise and those who have laboured to build up the slag heaps may not feel quite so despondent.
Those of your Lordships who know the West Country will be familiar with the great heaps outside the china clay workings. Perhaps they are not so unsightly as some slag heaps in the North and in the Midlands; at a distance they look rather attractive. But there they were, great heaps of unusable material, until somebody found that by compacting they could be made into suitable building material, and all over the South-West houses are now built with blocks made from this material. I think the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, probably had that in mind when he referred to the work that is being done on other forms of waste material to see how far they could be used for building.
If I may now turn to domestic waste, as the Green Paper says waste paper is the obvious candidate to be confidently recommended for separate collection. I was surprised to find that it constituted from 30 to 40 per cent. of all domestic waste, but that emphasises how important it is to take every advantage to collect waste paper separately. As we know, some local authorities already organise
812
separate collections, but the difficulties outlined in the Green Paper, and mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Darling of Hillsborough, have intervened where price considerations have from time to time made it undesirable, or uneconomic to accept waste paper in this way. I fully agree with the noble Lord that some balancing machinery ought to be invented, so that a continuous demand can be maintained.
Of course, we know that there are many local organisations—bodies such as the Women's Institute—apart from the local authorities, which collect waste-paper and thereby make a modest income which I hope is free of income tax and will remain so. These bodies are valuable for the activities which they carry out in the community, and for the donations which they make to charity. The Green Paper refers to some practical difficulties in the collection of waste paper; for instance, the expense to a local authority. I wonder whether in certain areas this collection could be assisted in some way. Here is a suggestion for the new Advisory Council to consider when it comes into being, of some new type of collecting vehicle which could have separate compartments for waste paper and other refuse. As regards the difficulty of providing waste bins in blocks of flats where there is not much room, surely it would be possible to have, in addition to the normal waste bin for each flat, a communal waste bin for paper.
Many years ago—in fact, this is going back to before the war—I was told of a process developed in Southern Italy, which can best be described as a sort of maxi-composting system for dealing with domestic waste. The waste is put into sealed cylinders, raised to a high temperature, and after a certain number of days it comes out as if from a compost heap; a quite sterile substance suitable for use as a fertiliser. I believe I am right in saying that this system was tried in London, and perhaps elsewhere. In London there was a plant at Wood Lane in Hammersmith, but I think I am right in saying that it was for the Royal Borough of Kensington. The plant ran into a number of difficulties, largely connected with the difficult problem of sorting. There were certain—not many—commodities such as tins which had to be kept out of the mix. Unfortunately, this involved sorting by hand, an unpleasant

813
task, and today an almost impossibly expensive operation. Would it not be worthwhile looking at this again? I inquired of an Italian friend of mine yesterday whether he knew anything about it, and he thought it was still going on in Southern Italy.
My Lords, this Green Paper has been concerned almost exclusively with reclamation. The sub-title of the Green Paper is, A Policy for Reclamation. If noble Lords will look at the introduction, it says:
"The Government believe that there should be a new national effort to conserve and reclaim scarce resources—".
To my mind, conservation is far more important and has far greater potential than reclamation. The old adage, "Prevention is better than cure" describes what I mean. When we think of conservation, our minds naturally think first of energy. Do we take the conservation of energy seriously? I do not know how many of your Lordships have recently visited the United States, but there is a country whose energy position is definitely superior to ours, since they have a considerable indigenous production. Yet in every hotel room you find a leaflet asking you to turn out the lights. There are all sorts of notices left about, calling the attention of the population all the time to the fact that there is an energy crisis. In this country it seems to me that we have failed to do that.
It is true that yesterday the Chancellor of the Exchequer increased VAT on petrol, no doubt with a view to persuading people to plan their journeys more economically. That is all to the good. But I still feel that we have not really faced the fact in this country that there is a tremendous amount to be saved if we really take seriously the energy shortage. The biggest item of all is the insulation of our houses; the preservation of heat within them. Apart from voluntary effort, this requires an alteration in the housing regulations. I express the hope that the Government may think fit to introduce some amendment to that effect in the near future.
While on the subject of energy, I must say something about coal—our great indigenous source of energy. I hope that this will not cause offence, but I wish to say that if for any reason—and I shall not
814
discuss the reasons—we cannot bring into use the maximum possible amount of our principal natural resource, we shall as surely be wasting it at this critical time as if we are throwing it away. That is a slight overstatement, because the coal will still remain in the ground, but now is when we want it. Coal is not a resource until it is at the power station.
There is another source of energy which I thought I might mention; that is, food. Those of your Lordships who listened to the speeches of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Coventry and the noble Lord, Lord Ritchie-Calder, will remember the picture they painted of the desperate food situation in the world as a whole. Do we eat too much? A given quantity of food is needed to provide the energy which keeps us "on the go". I am not at all a medical person, but I would hazard a guess, that if we eat more than that amount the effect is not more energy but less; one feels lethargic. I know that this sounds a rather gimmicky sort of statement, but it was suggested that those people in another place should have no meat on the menu one day a week. That would be only a gesture, but would that gesture lead us eventually to realise that one of the things we waste in this country—I am not referring to the people on the very bottom of the economic scale, but to most of the population above the medium income scale—is a good deal of food? Would it not do some good as well if it could be brought home to people—that this is waste; a waste of things we import, or grow ourselves, whichever way we look at the matter?
I have gone a little beyond the Green Paper, because that was devoted only to reclamation. Perhaps the noble Baroness will be able to tell us that a further Green Paper will come on the subject of the saving of our resources, of economy in our resources. If so, I think it would be welcome to all of us. In conclusion, may I express my apologies to the noble Lord, Lord Darling of Hillsborough, and to the noble Baroness for the fact that I am unable to stay to the end of the debate, as I have a commitment in connection with the present meeting of the North Atlantic Assembly in which I have the honour to be one of your Lordships' representatives.
4.39 p.m.
THE EARL OF SHANNON: My Lords, like others, I must express my congratulations and gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Darling of Hillsborough, for enabling us to debate this potentially very profitable topic this afternoon. We are grateful to the Government for their Green Paper, giving us an outline of their thoughts. In respect of this subject, I must declare my usual interest in the industrial research associations. Hence, my intervention will have to be confined mainly to the technological aspects. I should like to dilate upon the subject of motivation of the public to carry out the sorting of domestic refuse voluntarily, which action would be uneconomic were this labour to be paid for. However, I am sure that there will be other speakers in this debate who arc far better qualified than I to speak on this particular subject.
When considering this subject of altering our present wasteful habits, perhaps it would be profitable to inquire first how these habits evolved. This leads one to consider the situation prior to that pertaining at present and, without necessarily attempting to put the clock back, to see whether some retracing of the path which we have followed is feasible, desirable or even possible. I do not wish to delay your Lordships with tedious detail of such a survey, but I think one outstanding point does emerge, and that is that the present situation has arisen from purely economic reasons. The further one delves back into history the more one is aware how the balance of values between materials and man's time has become completely reversed. Materials used to be in short supply. They were carefully husbanded, because they were difficult to win from the earth or otherwise obtain or cultivate. Some years ago when I was a practising craft metal worker, I was forcefully struck when casting wrought iron gates which my company was then manufacturing how the material to labour costs were of the order of 10 to 90 per cent., while from old company records of a century before I could see that the position then was almost entirely reversed, with labour costs of 20 per cent. against material of 80 per cent.
The increasing cost of labour compared with materials led to demands on technology to win materials more easily and
816
in larger quantities, but all too often with an increased energy input. Increasing quantities of materials desired greater production, leading to the necessity for greater sales, and thus continuing the industrial revolutionary spiral, until we arrived at the situation, not so very many months ago, when man's time, as a result of his natural wish to increase his standard of living, was the most expensive component of almost any product; and as a result any and every attempt was made to minimise this component at the inevitable expense of materials and energy. Hence arose the situation where it is cheaper in some instances to make a new bottle than to wash and re-use an existing one.
Similarly, in the packaging and retail fields it was more economic in labour to stock pre-packaged goods rather than to dispense small quantities for individual customers from bulk. It also assists stock control—for example, the exclusive use of sealed miniature bottles of spirits in many establishments, and I believe in the airlines. Similarly, in the packaging field to-day, many of our products are far more sophisticated and delicate than those of yesteryear, and expensive and complicated packaging is used to ensure the product's safe arrival, because this is far cheaper to the manufacturer than the cost of man's time in individual repairs to returned damaged units.
As it is not only impractical, impossible, but also socially undesirable to attempt to reverse this balance between labour and materials by reducing the labour costs, the Green Paper is to be applauded for its view that the course must be to stop our extravagances with materials and energy before nature, presently mostly in the persons of the organisation of oil-producing and exporting countries, make these resources so scarce and prohibitively expensive that the balance will naturally reverse again. and the Western nations may be faced with the possibility of being industrialised nations with nothing from which to produce.
It goes against the grain with many of us to throw away a perfectly good article. but here again we are pressurised into doing so in order to obtain the later and more advanced model. Although some products are shoddy and do not last, many become obsolete due entirely to

817
technological and marketing advances since the date of their manufacture. In that technology was responsible for this comparative cheapness of resources and premature obsolescence, so, therefore, I suggest to your Lordships, it must be to technology that we must look to redress the position.
There are two quite different aspects of the more efficient use of our materials, the most obvious one being the collection and re-use of waste. But—and here I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, and the noble Viscount, Lord Simon—far more important is the reduction of waste in the first place. Waste reduction from a cost benefit point of view is far more valuable than waste recovery, as it leads to the saving and more effective use of material rather than its re-creation later. The Green Paper gives a very good and detailed survey of what is already being achieved and where advances could be made, and to comment on each would be to trespass severely on your Lordships' time. But apart from the sorting of domestic refuse and scrap market stability, in the main it is conceded that advances must come from research and development within industry. If, as the Green Paper says, Government intend to assist in the development of reclamation activity, let them also address themselves to the encouragement of waste reduction as being even more important. And, in that the whole situation arose from reasons of cost effectiveness of labour versus materials, it is surely best to initiate work which will show the similar economic attractiveness of waste reduction and reclamation.
Governments are all too keen to behave like third rate Victorian nannies, and immediately think of the punitive measures of regulation and legislation (paragraph 4, page 29), and they forget that the cost of enforcing regulation is often more than the cost of rendering the desired result economically more attractive in its own right. With this in mind, let us hope that Government will take an enlightened view and encourage rather than penalise industry. Some of the work to be done no doubt may be of a type appropriate to Government laboratories but by far the greater proportion can and must be done in industry itself.
818
Although it may be thought, with the publishing of the Green Paper, that Government are taking the initiative, industry with their research associations have been very well ahead, and not for the first time. In this context perhaps it would be appropriate for me to give again a brief survey of current work being conducted in this field at some of the relevant laboratories. Here, with great respect, I must disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Darling of Hillsborough, in his estimate of only 50 scientists being involved, unless he is counting only those who are working in the Industrial Research Associations. As is hinted at in the Green Paper, the Glass Industries RA, in conjunction with the Glass Manufacturers Federation and the glass container manufacturers in the United Kingdom, is investigating the present utilisation of cullet, and the Research Association is looking at methods of monitoring the quality of the waste glass with a view to drawing up a specification for its economic re-use.
The non-ferrous industry is given good coverage in the Green Paper, and in the table on page 18 one can see that it has a good record of reclamation. From this table it is interesting to note that the higher recovery rates are in the most valuable materials: obviously those where the cost of the material makes it worth while to expend money on the labour to recover them. It is estimated that the non-ferrous metals industries recover over 50 per cent. of the metal, and that this is recycled. The industries' research centre, the British Non-Ferrous Metals Technical Centre, is working on furnace developments and on new methods of refining scrap which will increase the efficiency of the recovery process, and will increase still further the yield of re-usable material. At Wira they completed some years ago the well-known Pudsey experiment. It does not sound very wonderful, but it was an experiment which showed how it was perfectly possible to recycle domestic and industrial sewage and use it in wool and other textile processing. Furthermore, they are working there on projects to ensure that the type of fibre blend in recovered textiles is suitable for use in modern techniques such as open end spinning. Oddly perhaps, in coal carbonisation for coke the Research Association

819
are working on the re-use of purified liquor effluents.
In the Leather Research Association they are working on the recovery and re-use of processed chemicals not only for the value of the chrome tanning agents recovered but also from the pollution point of view. They also work on the reduction of waste by measurement and control of the various processes. The Rubber and Plastics Research Association has a paragraph to itself in the Green Paper, and they have many confidential projects in hand for the industry. The polymer industry is wide awake to business opportunities for the re-using and reprocessing of recovered material. Here they find that work on specific opportunities is far more fruitful than on broad general projects. This again reinforces the point already made by the noble Lord, Lord Sandford.
At the Shirley Institute they work on projects concerned with washing processes of textiles leading to the more economical use of water and energy, as well as recovering waste. Here, as a small example, the waste from spinning processes has been shown to be recoverable for use in condenser fabrics, and the waste from the manufacture of condenser fabrics can be used for mattress fillings. I am not sure whether there is any waste from mattress fillings, but I am sure that if there were the Shirley Institute would find another use for it.
The Furniture Industries Research Association is concerned that their industry has a large number of timber off-cuts. At present this is usually pulverised and used as fuel due to the sorting difficulties, but here again work is in hand so that this at present possibly unsatisfactory use will be stopped and a more useful solution found. Other industrial research associations in the textile field are working on similar projects to those I have mentioned. In food, to take a different field, glue and gelatine manufacture is, in any case, a recycling of what is sometimes considered waste food products such as bones and hides. Here again they are working on improved efficiency processes for the conversion using enzymes instead of chemical conversion, leading to savings in fuel usage and processing time.
820
On page 22, paragraph 31, of the Green Paper, we see much made of the re-use of vending cups. It does not say so, but the main re-use of those cups is in the manufacture of heels for shoes. This was a project very largely sponsored and carried out by the Shoe and Allied Trades Research Association. There are many other examples which I could give to your Lordships. I hope that this short list, brief though it is, will encourage Government to encourage industry by increased support of such potentially valuable work, which is not a flash in the pan, or a present day band-wagon effort, but an investment which will lead to steady and regular benefit to the nation for many decades to come. Of course there are no votes in industrial research, and public expenditure in this field is always relegated much lower down the scale than the "Robin Hood" aspirations of many politicians. However socially desirable such activities may be, and they are undeniable in that each is more worthy than the last, a moment's reflection will convince one that Robin Hoods, no matter how worthy, are themselves unproductive and economically a dead loss. On the other hand, an intelligent Robin Hood, appreciating that he is simply a socially worthy parasite, will take steps to ensure the health of his host and the continuance of a supply of prosperous "Sheriffs of Nottingham" in order that he himself may remain in business.
In our present economic difficulties an intelligent appreciation and motivation is called for, and I have written to those noble Lords representing the relevant Departments in your Lordships' House assuring them that the research associations are both ready and willing to do all they can, and await the invitation to discussions promised in paragraph 2 on page 29. In addition, the research associations are instigating talks on cooperative work in this field with their EEC counterparts at the next meeting in December in Copenhagen of the Federation of European Industrial Co-operative Research Organisations, of which I have the honour to be the Secretary. The research associations are holding out a challenge to Government to match their activities in this obviously valuable field; can Government measure up to this challenge and support this work in the national interest?
4.59 p.m.
BARONESS WHITE: My Lords, I should like to add my congratulations to those already proffered to my noble friend Lord Darling of Hillsborough on his maiden speech. If I may say so, in the few years that I have been in your Lordships' House there have been one or two occasions when perhaps the advent of a former colleague from another place has filled me with slightly muted rapture, but so far as the noble Lord is concerned may I say that I am delighted to have him among us. I am sure other Members of your Lordships' House will appreciate that we have a new colleague who will be of the greatest assistance to us. I have never heard him speak other than good sense and always well-informed good sense. I am very happy that he has chosen, even if slightly irregularly for his maiden speech, to introduce to your Lordships this paper War on Waste because it is a subject which, in your Lordships' House, can produce persons like the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, who has just spoken, who have great knowledge to contribute to the debate.
I do not pretend to have any specialised knowledge in this matter, but during the discussions on the Control of Pollution Bill we had occasion to mention several of the subjects which are included in the White Paper, not least that of waste paper. That is one of the most important, but also relatively one of the simplest operations, which is why I would not want to spend further time on it. During those discusions I had once or twice to mention—as I often do—the state of affairs in the Principality of Wales. My noble friend Lord Darling of Hillsborough referred to the important role of the local authorities. He will appreciate that in England it is the county authorities which are the disposal authorities; not so in Wales. In Wales—I believe mistakenly—it is the district councils who are both the collection and disposal authorities. Unless a good deal of co-operation and statesmanship is shown, I am apprehensive that in Wales we may not perhaps be as succesful as we should be in dealing with this matter of waste reclamation, because the authorities concerned may be too small to operate effectively.
I was happy to receive a letter only this morning from someone who is knowledgeable in these matters about one
822
of our industrial counties, the Mid Glamorgan County Council, which have set up a Waste and Pollution Working Party under the inspiration of the county but bringing in all the districts within it. This seems to me to be satisfactory. I hope very much that other counties in the Principality will be able to have similar diplomatic success in bringing together the districts in order to work out sensible disposal schemes. If this is not done, I fear that within the Principality we shall have little reclamation. What we shall have is a policy of "dump or burn." It is so much easier to dump waste or to burn it than to sort and re-use it. Yet that is not what the Government are concerned about. We are concerned about re-use and recycling so far as it is practical or reasonably economic. But I was distressed to hear that the policy of some district councils, so far at least, is to accept that the answer to their waste disposal problems is to establish large incinerators. Apart from the fact that this can cause localised pollution, it is in many instances not the most satisfactory way of dealing with refuse. If one could be assured that where incineration seemed to be the only answer that the heat so generated was itself then adequately used, one would be less worried about simply burning rubbish.
But as our earlier discussions on the Control of Pollution Bill made us realise, we have not yet solved the problem of using the waste heat from incineration of rubbish. I believe there is a great deal of further research needed on this and possibly dissemination of knowledge from those very few experiments which have been carried out by local authorities to other local authorities who may be considering what ought to be done.
I am well aware that the Green Paper itself is not much concerned with conservation of energy and that another advisory body has been set up to deal with that subject. Nevertheless, those of us who are interested in these matters feel, as the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, mentioned, that conservation of energy really is one of the most important of all our current problems. I would draw the attention of my noble friend Lady Birk to this problem so that she may communicate with her Ministerial colleagues.
There is an interesting Report on Energy and the Environment which is to

823
be discussed in London to-morrow, produced by a Committee under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Nathan. This refers to thermal pollution and to the waste of energy, particularly in relation to the generation of electricity. It points out that if power were generated in smaller units the rejected heat could be conveniently used for district heating, industrial processing and the processing of organic waste, which brings us back to our Green Paper. But it is not the job of the Central Electricity Generating Board to concern itself about the possible side uses of its waste heat. This is the matter to which I should like to draw the attention of my noble friend.
One cannot blame the nationalised industry—which is regulated by Statute in what it can do—if it does not undertake supernumerary duties outside its immediate statutory obligations. If one examines the terms of reference of the CEGB one will see that these are—and I summarise them: To develop and maintain an efficient co-ordinated and economical system of electricity supply and to take into account any effect which their proposals would have on the natural beauty of the countryside and on flora, fauna, features, buildings and objects of special interest. Admirable so far as it goes. But there is no obligation here to consider the effect of its operations on other possible interests. Therefore, without going into the various technicalities of it, I feel that it would be highly desirable, if the Government are in earnest about this matter of the conservation and the economical use of our physical resources, that they should look again at the terms of reference under which the CEGB works and ask the Generating Board to consider a much more positive attitude towards the use of waste heat.
I am informed that in most processes of electricity generation only about 40 per cent. goes into electricity. The rest is waste which either evaporates or goes into air or water by other means. I hope that we could look in a much more comprehensive way at resource management. We could then consider the desirability of a body like the CEGB dealing with this subject far more intelligently than it is under any obligation at present to do.
I know that there are some minor experiments such as the white fish experi-
824
ment at Hunterston—the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, will know something about that—and I am told that there is some enterprise at, I think, Hinckley Point, in rearing prawns. I believe that if we could have greater research one could find ways of using this heat, not least in the treatment of organic waste which at the moment we use very unintelligently indeed. So, my Lords, I would be grateful if my noble friend would consider this point and would press her friends in the Department of Energy on it.
I was very glad that the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, brought us near to reality in this matter, because in the Green Paper there is some danger of over-simplifying the problem. I was much concerned to find on page 31, for example, that the Government apparently intend to run a major publicity campaign. I think this could do far more harm than good unless they have thought out very carefully precisely what it is that they are to ask the public to do. A number of us, I think, have received from the glass industry an extremely interesting account of a very recent experiment in the City of York in which, under the most favourable conditions possible, with the entire co-operation of the local authority and of a local glass manufacturing enterprise, they endeavoured to see what would happen if the public was asked over a period of time to collect waste glass bottles, and so forth. They found it was utterly uneconomic even though, as I say, they had the fullest possible co-operation from the public and private authorities, they had a glass factory on the spot so that their transport arrangements were minimised and they had concentrated publicity.
I think a great deal more thought and imagination will have to be given to dealing separately with these various commodities. They are not similar; they all need different ways of management to be applied to them. It would have the worst possible effect if we had general exhortation and people, with a wave of enthusiasm, started to try to do what they thought was right as good citizens, only to find that they were utterly frustrated because either the arrangements had not been thought out properly or because after a short period they were told, "We are very sorry; you have tried hard, but really this is not economic and we shall

825
have to stop". I think they would then be so much disappointed and so frustrated that this whole movement could be thwarted.
Therefore I should be happy to learn from my noble friend what the Government's second thoughts have been since some very injudicious statements were made (to which the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, also drew attention) in the Green Paper. I think we should also like to know just when we are to have the announcement—perhaps we can have it tonight; I hope very much my noble friend will be in a position to tell us—about the advisory body on waste treatment which it was decided to set up as long ago as last May. We are perfectly aware that there has been a General Election in the meantime, but that is now some weeks past, and if the Government are really in earnest about this campaign then the least they could have done by now, I should have supposed, would be to tell us who was to be given the duty of advising upon it.
My Lords, there are so many remarks that one would like to make about this subject—one could go into detail on various commodities—but I do not wish to take up your Lordships' time. However, I would also very strongly appeal for more attention to be given to design. I entirely agree with the point put forward by the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, that there are often good reasons for a design which appears to be prodigal of resources and unnecessarily extravagant; but I am quite certain that there are other occasions when more intelligent design at the very outset would either make the process less wasteful in itself or, if one were to design with reclamation and recycling in mind from the very beginning, would produce much more satisfactory results at the end.
On this, of course, we depend partly on industry itself, and the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, was quite right to specify the various industries which are taking a lead in this matter. But we are also dependent upon the Government laboratories and upon the universities, and I am happy to think that University College Cardiff is among those which take a lead. I bow in the direction of the Lord Chancellor, and he will understand why. There we have had for quite some time now a centre of research into the recycling
826
and reclamation of both industrial and domestic waste. A good deal is done on contract for industry, but other research will clearly need Government subvention through one channel or another. I hope also that in her speech my noble friend will be able to say something about the support that the Government propose to give to research in this field. We look forward very much to her speech, and she can be assured that there are many of us in your Lordships' House who await it with the keenest attention.
VISCOUNT HANWORTH: My Lords, before the noble Baroness sits down, may I ask her these questions. Is it a fact that the Central Electricity Generating Board is bound by its Statutes to generate electricity as cheaply as possible? If this is the case it absolutely precludes the use of waste heat for, for example, district heating because that can be done only at the expense of reducing the efficiency of generating electricity, although overall it is a very good use of energy and vastly more efficient if one takes the broader picture. If that is so. does she not feel that the Statutes need altering urgently?
BARONESS WHITE: My Lords, I am delighted the noble Viscount has put it so much more clearly and emphatically than I was able to put it myself. He has taken my point entirely.
5.17 p.m.
THE EARL OF COURTOWN: My Lords, I should like to add my congratulations to those expressed to the noble Lord, Lord Darling of Hillsborough, on the excellent way in which he introduced the debate on this Green Paper. In particular, I liked his way of drawing attention to the need for research, even if he understated the amount which is already going on. Also, another point he made which I thought was extremely valuable was in pointing out that many of these ways of reclamation need extremely expensive plant, and there has to be some sort of reasonable expectation of continued use of that plant if companies, or even the nation, are going to invest money in building it. I welcome, too, this Green Paper, which, even though rather too general, covers well the technical and administrative problems in the reclamation of waste. It shows the breadth of the subject. If there are any shortcomings

827
in it, I feel they lie in the human problems of putting into effect measures which are beneficial to the country as a whole. This is another aspect of one of the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady White: that it is no use having wildly general compaigns for conserving and reclaiming waste if there are not proper means to deal with it and, again, if such campaigns are far too general in that they do not tell people what they need to do individually.
The waste which goes on all around us is appalling. It is not only a waste of the nation's resources: there is also the littering of the countryside. As a householder, I am struck particularly by the amount of glass which appears to be wasted—bottles and the like. The noble Baroness, Lady White, referred to some work which has been done at York, of which I am not aware; and I see from the paper to-day that the Working Party set up by the wine and spirit industry have reported against setting up a national recovery and re-use system for their bottles. I must say I am sorry about this, because one, at any rate, of the national wine and spirit chains takes back standard size wine bottles although they do not advertise the fact. Coca Cola bottles and many beer bottles can be returned, but it seems to me that a good many glass bottles could be retained and used again if only on a selective basis. So far as industry is concerned, I should have thought that almost all companies recycle their process waste or sell it to a dealer if it can be used again. Anti-pollution pressures have increased this activity and normally it is administratively simple. Advances in reclamation lie more in research as to what materials can be useful and how they can be reclaimed. Indeed there are many cases in past history of industrial waste products turning out to be valuable by-products, sometimes even more valuable than the original product. However, there are cases where waste material can be used for useful purposes but are not because they are inconvenient for administrative purposes. One cannot help feeling that much of the demand for gravel in the Home Counties is due to the great convenience of having a nearby gravel pit rather than obtaining waste products from a distance, with differing sources and possibly varying quail-
828
ties. I feel that pressure needs to be applied to get over difficulties which may be purely administrative.
There is another side of industrial use which leads to much waste in all materials other than process supplies and process waste. Many years ago, as a young man in my early twenties, I was given the job in a large factory in the North-East of finding out and taking action in relation to all forms of reclaim-able and re-usable waste materials in the factory. I had several other people to help me. There was a big construction programme going on at the time and there were already procedures for collecting and selling or re-using the main types of ferrous and non-ferrous scrap and other easily recoverable materials. In our investigation we discovered many examples of preventable waste. I do not want to bore noble Lords with them but there were some pretty curious ones among them. We found, for instance, that there was considerable disappearance of large wooden cable drums, which even in those days were priced at £10 to £12 each, and it was found that these were being used as a convenient way of starting braziers which on any construction site at that time at any rate were fairly common. Another item which I remember was the considerable loss of oxygen and acetylene cylinders. It was found that these were being covered by digging machinery when throwing up the soil into another position. Nobody appeared to be taking any notice of this! They did not realise the value of these things. When this fact was pointed out in a sensible and proper manner action was taken accordingly. I cannot help feeling that much of this kind of thing is going on now. There is much that industry can do to avoid unnecessary waste. It has always been part of good housekeeping in the factory which has a good effect all round, both moral and physical, and leads to the reduction of accidents.
BARONESS WHITE: My Lords, would the noble Lord permit me to intervene for a moment? I meant to mention a little item of good housekeeping that affects some of us. I have just handed in to the Post Office three-quarters of a pound of rubber bands which I have received in the last three months. I would suggest that the Post Office might do a little good housekeeping.
THE EARL OF COURTOWN: My Lords, I have no doubt that we all receive a large number of rubber bands. Another item which occurs to me is the large number of wire clothes hangers which one gets from the dry cleaners. I understand that they welcome those back again. On the home front I believe that there is just as much to be done, perhaps even more. I am glad to see emphasis placed on the part to be played by local authorities. Too many of them, even now, do not collect even waste paper separately. They could also more effectively advertise where householders can deposit metal and other scrap. I find quite extraordinary the extent to which metal scrap seems to be dumped around the countryside, whereas if a local authority could give instructions to people to take it to a particular place where it could be properly handled and sold, surely not only should we improve the amenities of the countryside but also recover useful scrap. If waste is to be segregated by the householder he must have containers in which to put it. This involves space, which in a block of flats may be a difficulty; but this does not mean that it should not be operated where space permits. Paper is an obvious case, but far too few local authorities are collecting even paper at present. Most householders, if asked, would be very willing to segregate their waste. The problem needs careful examination area by area, and administrative problems, difficult as they may appear even to people used to working in a particular way, should not be allowed to bar progress.
At the beginning of my speech I mentioned the human problems involved. Most of us in this country are very untidy by nature; many of us are resistant to administrative change. It is difficult enough to get people in one's own household to put refuse in the right containers even if they are labelled properly. Those of us who were in the Services during the war know how difficult it was to get people to keep the disposal of waste materials tidy, even though one had army discipline behind them. Much propaganda will be required, and people must not only be asked or told what they are to do but they must be given the reasons. I expect there is much useful experience available from what happened in the last war. If so, let us make use of it. In the infantry battalion in which I served in this country
830
many of the amenities received by the men of the battalion were paid for by the segregation and sale of swill for pigs. I do not know whether pigs do not eat swill now or whether it is regarded as too expensive to collect, but it seems to me there must be an increase in the price of normal food for pigs which would make it economic to collect swill. There must be an enormous amount of unused food going to waste which might quite well be used as foodstuffs for animals of various kinds. It will all need a well planned, carefully thought out campaign directed to specific things, coupled with what the Green Paper proposes. I believe that a great reduction of waste is possible.
5.29 p.m.
LORD DAVIES OF LEEK: My Lords, this has been an interesting little discussion—it is not truly a debate—and I think all of us are grateful to my noble friend Lord Darling of Hillsborough for having introduced it in this Chamber. I was particularly interested in the remarks of the noble Earl, Lord Shannon. Obviously from his experience he had something of great worth to say to us and consequently in passing I think it is only right that we should pay tribute to some of the valuable suggestions he made.
In looking at the Green Paper I want to recall the excellent little speech of the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, when he made the suggestion that it might be valuable as an incentive for the Government to exempt the collection of waste from income tax if it brings funds to organisations such as scouts, boys brigades, nurses, housewives—every kind of organisation. Chapter 1, paragraph 4, of the Green Paper states:
"The Government's aim is to bring about this integration. They are examining urgently how far market forces provide sufficient encouragement for reclamation and whether new financial incentives or disincentives are needed."
There is here, as a result of the suggestion of the noble Viscount, a possibility that my noble friend Lady Birk might take up when she gives us her inimitable reply. I shall repeat the suggestion because my noble friend happened to be whispering to a colleague. The noble Viscount suggested that exemption from income tax might be a worthy objective where certain bodies are collecting waste.

831
My Lords, I was a little worried that the noble Lord. Lord Sandford, seemed a little niggling about the Green Paper. He said that there should be this and asked what was to happen to that but of course—and I shall show how fair I am—all Governments have been working like this. I have a wonderful Report produced under the Tory Government prepared on the occasion of the United Nations Conference on the Human Environment held at Stockholm in 1972. It said:
"A detailed and practical interest in the quality of life we lead in our islands is central to the philosophy of this Government… We are conscious that alongside a desire for rising standards of living, there has grown up a worry that we might be destroying with one hand what we are creating with the other … that we might find we had only achieved rising material standards at the cost of producing a country about which, in terms of amenity, we were no longer enthusiastic."
That quotation comes from the right honourable Edward Heath, MBE, MP., whom I have no doubt the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, has heard many a time. This was an excellent Report and at the end there is a summary of between fifty to seventy pamphlets, booklets and documents dealing with the problem of the environment and of waste. In fact, we have been discussing waste for a generation and never have we got down to the "nitty-gritty" of making the collection of waste work.
I do not want to quote masses of facts and figures. Noble Lords would be bored and they know them all. Nevertheless, we only have, as this document says, one world to pollute. Both Parties have their Manifestos. This is our Manifesto and on page 19 we say that we put on the Statute Book control of pollution Acts, as all Governments have, and that the Labour Government want to reverse the trend and set up a Waste Management Advisory Council. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, was asking for too much detail at this stage, but I shall forgive him this time as it was clear that the weather or something had got him down a little. Accordingly, I shall add about five more minutes of my own ideas.
My Lords, having made reference to the constructive points raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, and the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, I wish something could be
832
done about the Acts which are already on the Statute Book. In another place, we had a Litter Act. If some noble Lords would come with me one glorious autumn morning when the leaves are golden and still dwindling on the trees in the Manifold Valley, in Dovedale or around the Peak District, I would endeavour to escape broken-down cars, mattresses and old bedding for which nobody seems to take responsibility or to try to find out who dumped them there. Go up towards the M.l, you will find cars dumped at the side of the A.41 on the way. Nobody can tell me that enough interest is taken by local authorities or others in finding the culprits. If we are short of manpower, there ought to be some kind of recruitment of wardens. We are pretty quick to recruit wardens to ensure that cars do not stay too long in our streets or that they use meters. Perhaps there is a case at the edges of great cities and on the fringe of country areas for establishing wardens who have no other job except to scout around and point out where evil dumps are set up.
I was glad to notice that a number of noble Lords, including some who come from Welsh farming and mining areas and who are interested in both fanning and mining, have drawn attention to the work that has been done to clear away the spoil tips in the mining areas. I do not want to claim all the honour for the Labour Government; intelligent Governments of any political colour know that the quality of life in these areas is gradually being altered by the afforestation schemes and the green grass that is now growing in some of these areas. This is particularly true in 'the Potteries and Stoke-on-Trent, where parkland has been created where huge coalmine tips existed previously.
My Lords, there are some questions which we dodge. I probably ought to tread like Agag, but I shall rush in where angels fear to tread. When we are talking about the quality of life, what is the reason for today's shortages? As much as anything, the reason is the population explosion and speculation. The world is impoverished in its social factors, in its human factors and in its quality of living. Social behaviour is poor, the acquisitive society is not a success. The CBI is asking for £3

833
million to £4 million to be poured into private enterprise and it fails to acknowledge the axiom of modern production that we are socialising the losses and privatising the profits. We are now being told that one cannot run industry today without huge investment from the Government. That is what we are being asked for. I do not want to enter into this matter: I am hoping that we shall discuss multi-nationals in society and in relation to investment one day in this House, because this is one of the vital factors in the problem of lack of investment at home which is leading to some of the untidiness and lack of quality in our living. I do not know the answers to this problem and I should be a pompous fool if I pretended to. We lack a coherent doctrine to lead us through the difficult, shrinking world in which we live. For instance, nobody yet—whether or not Marxists—has disproved one of the central critiques of Marx that (and one need not be a Communist to recognise the philosophy) the acquisitive system of society, of capitalism, has within it the seeds of its own destruction. Was Marx right or wrong? Is the system working today? We have been told that it can only work pragmatically.
There is no such thing as free competition because we have set up a Common Market to regulate the amount of sugar one can obtain, to regulate the meat flow, to regulate the goods that come in. We have GATT and other trade agreements to limit the flow of goods to various parts of the world. There is no such thing as free competition in the world. The old-fashioned, excellent capitalist system of the early 19th century did a marvellous thing for mankind. It showed him how to produce but it has not taught him how to distribute. It left spoils and wastage that we, in this generation and in the next, will have to clear up in our industrial towns. Nobody has yet managed to find an answer to that. And in this feckless scramble for consumption we are bamboozled by a spree of ostentatious packaging, glossy plastic gadgetry and similar materials which spill over our hedgerows and roadsides on to the fields and kill the cows when they eat the plastic. Yet nobody seems to do much about it.
Here we have packaging neatly put down as the first point to be looked at. It is stated:
834
"The questions to be considered will include these key issues: how can packaging and containers best be designed to minimise waste."
God knows!, my Lords. Talking of packaging, I was in a café the other day and a huge plastic tomato was on the table, suffering from elephantiasis. I caught hold of this ugly damned thing and out of it squirted about two jars of tomato sauce all over the table in front of me and on to my guest sitting opposite. That is an example of our ugly, plastic, gadget-loving society—a lump of indestructibility that is ugly.
We are losing the beauty of the 18th century and some of the 19th century artistry. Man is the only animal who violates his home and hearth. Perhaps the Government could ask industry to come to some gentlemen's agreement to stop competing with each other in the matter of packaging. There is the example of any of my noble friends on either side of your Lordships' House or myself trying to open a packet of tablets when we are perhaps suffering from a headache—of course, noble Lords never get a hangover, and God help them if they do, with some of the packaging that we have to-day, because it would be to-morrow before they got at the tablets! This is a crazy world that we live in, and if there is anybody looking over the ramparts of Heaven, or shovelling coal in the other place because of a shortage of oil, and who is looking at us now, he must be wondering what is going on. It is time we put the brake on this silly, unnecessary folly of man. So the world crisis intensifies, and "growthmanship" and the violent growth of population are partly the cause of our wastemakers' society.
The only thing that is dynamic in the car industry is the dynamic inbuilt obsolescence of the car. You buy a car and it is built to be obsolete in two or three years. I think this is evil. It is a destruction of man's raw materials and precious non-ferrous and other metals. Nobody can contradict this. It is said, "If you do not do this there will be unemployment and men out of work, so you have to build cars to last for only two or three years". There is something wrong with this. We are seeking new motives for production, and in this age when we worship consumerism of that type we encourage waste. Our Budget seems to encourage HP terms because of the problem of unemployment. But our destiny is

835
in our own hands. The answer is simple, but very difficult to carry out. It is that all of us in our own lives should try to do something about this wastage. It is very elementary, so elementary that nobody will believe it, and I hope that my right honourable friend will use the schools of Britain to encourage the collection and sorting of waste. I sincerely hope that the Department of Education and Science will make it possible for our youngsters to help to put right what we have done in the past.
Technocratic man is an ugly animal. He is losing the old cement of courtesy; he is becoming surly and irritable, and now we are building fiats and living like insects in them. These high-rise fiats create more waste than anything else. Anybody who studies biology knows that animals or insects get annoyed and nasty with each other when they are put in crowded conditions. Those who, like myself, have been associated with biology and the production of drugs in laboratories know what happens to animals and insects when they are kept in overcrowded conditions; and part of man's waste-making society to-day is caused by overcrowding. This is destroying the joy of life.
In The Road to Survival, by Hoyt, which was written 20 years or more ago, he said:
"The material standard of living is pasted together with printed paper money which we go on printing in this fools' paradise of ' You've never had it so good'."
This is very true. It is time we remembered the lesson of his book. I am surprised to find that I have spoken for seventeen minutes, and I am sorry if I have bored your Lordships. However, I will finish by quoting this extract:
"Every grain of wheat and rye, every sugar beet, every egg and piece of veal, every spoonful of olive oil and glass of wine depends on an irreducible minimum of earth to produce it. The earth is not made of rubber: it cannot be stretched. The human race, and every nation, is limited in the number of acres it possesses, and as the number of human beings increases the relative amount of productive earth decreases by the amount of increase of population in that ratio."
This is the problem, irrespective of religious differences, that some day we shall have to face, because in the waste-makers' society this is one of the basic
836
problems—the pressure of mighty populations on a limited earth.
5.47 p.m.
BARONESS HYLTON-FOSTER: My Lords, may I add my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Darling, on his most interesting speech to-day and also thank him for raising this topic at this particular moment. I rise to-day only because I had the pleasure of supporting 'the noble Baroness, Lady Emmet of Amberley, on her Motion concerning the commercial re-use of waste in, I believe, March, 1970, which was a little over four years ago. I said then, and I repeat now, that we are living in a "throw away" society. People throw things away when they are bored with them—not because they are worn out or broken. Surely in this economic crisis it would be a good idea if everybody started again to be thrifty rather than concentrating all the time on "keeping up with the Joneses". This throwing away happens in town and country: and in 1970, in the debate initiated by the noble Baroness, I made a special point of talking about glass and polythene bags, both of which have been mentioned already to-day. I should like to repeat that if polythene bags are picked up in the grass by animals and eaten, the bags get round their guts and strangulate them. while if they eat pieces of glass, they suffer from haemorrhage.
Many of us spoke last time about waste paper, which local authorities will not keep separate. There was also mention of the need for much greater composting of suitable waste. I believe I was "shot down" on all those ideas on grounds of cost. Now, looking at the Green Paper from the householder's point of view, I was interested to see in Chapter 1, paragraph 6, that the public, after sorting out rubbish, can return some of these things to reclamation centres for re-use. But I am afraid that the additional tax on petrol will discourage householders from doing this themselves and they will say, "This is the job of the local authority".
Going on to Chapter 2, paragraphs 14 and 15, here I must take up the cudgels with the noble Lord, Lord Darling of Hillsborough. The Green Paper says that householders are to blame for segregation of household waste not working.

837
But I think householders get discouraged when they separate their waste and see it going into these mechanical "munchers", or whatever they are called, where everything gets munched up together. Therefore they say, "What is the use of it?" I am certain if they are told the reason why, and if there is good public relations about this, householders would cooperate very willingly, if only the local authorities would use the right vehicles to cater for the different types of waste. Now the situation is probably more difficult because there are two councils, in 1970 there was only one. Who is going to throw the buck at whom? Whose responsibility is it to have the right type of vehicle and sort out the different types of waste? I do not know whether the noble Baroness will be able to help us on that point. Paragraph 18 of Chapter 2 talks of the difficulties of recycling. All this was pointed out in 1970. When the noble Baroness replies could she say whether any progress has been made?
There are industrial research organisations looking into the design of packaging which the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, told us about. Thanks to him, I had the opportunity of visiting one of these organisations. It was fascinating. They were experimenting, among other things, with polythene jars and cases. They were endeavouring to ensure that the type of accident which happened to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, would not happen again, and they did this by dropping a container from different heights to see what it would withstand with different weights in it. If a crack appeared on one side of the container they knew that something had to be done, and they went on experimenting until they got it right. I am sure that if the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, spoke to the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, he might see for himself this process.
Although I accept that good and sometimes elaborate packaging is necessary in the interests of what is contained inside, I suggest that perhaps elaborate packaging is only necessary for export, because if goods look more attractive with extra wrappings then perhaps this sells them more easily. But I suggest it may be unnecessary for goods sold in this country, because this elaborate packaging only adds to the waste which, again, has
838
to be collected. For years voluntary organisations have been collecting waste paper and have been getting money for it. I have been collecting waste paper for a long time for a Surrey school where money is being raised for a swimming pool. There is no difficulty about getting rid of the paper or paying for it, and I hope that the Government will look into this again. The noble Earl, Lord Courtown, mentioned glass and bottles and the report in to-day's papers about the spirit industry. I find that report very disappointing; but perhaps some of the research going on can put that matter right. It is strange that nobody is interested in glass because there is not enough glass to make milk bottles. Milk is now having to be put into horrible polythene containers.
I cannot end without referring once again to organic wastes because last time I spoke on this matter I referred to composting. I believe we should do more about this, because if composting were used more widely to-day it would help to rub out a little of the cost of fertilisers. In 1970 there were in the United Kingdom 9 composting plants—3 in Edinburgh, 5 in Leicestershire and the first one of all in Leatherhead. I wonder whether the noble Baroness knows if there are any more now. I understand the problem then was that they were not efficient enough for the material to be used for agricultural purposes because it was not free of certain unsuitable matter. I think this difficulty was solved in Holland a number of years ago, and I wonder whether we can learn something from them. It is only in a time of crisis that sufficient thought is given to research into difficult problems; I hope that the curse of inflation will spur the Government to get something more done.
5.56 p.m.
VISCOUNT MONCK: My Lords, I want to refer to three items in this Green Paper. But before doing so, and before the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, leaves his place, may I suggest that if he is still suffering from that hangover that he mentioned earlier at 5.40 p.m.—and it is possibly accounted for by the tie that he is wearing—I would not count it in the least discourteous if the noble Lord went away and took such remedy as is available!

839
On page 8 the Green Paper states:
"It is right that local authorities should take the lead in mobilising the efforts of their communities to make the most of reclamation opportunities".
That is quite right. Your Lordships will probably know that a number of local authorities have recently purchased lorries with pulverising machinery inside them. However much the housewife separates her refuse, in goes everything to the back of the lorry—waste paper, bottles, orange peel, banana skins and tins. In a few moments the whole amount is pulverised into a mess. This is not only labour-saving but it also means that the rubbish can be deposited much more compactly on the ground which the local authority uses than it could be if the rubbish was separated. The ground for dumping rubbish is difficult to obtain. Therefore I am all for the "do-it-yourself" business.
This leads me to page 10 of the Paper where it mentions waste paper. I know that this has been mentioned before—I think the noble Baroness mentioned it and I am sure my noble friend Lord Courtown did. Waste paper can be very profitable to anybody who wishes to support a charitable organisation. Many of your Lordships do so, and there are many more people outside your Lordships' House who do so. I can give one small instance of my own little village of 300 souls—and that is counting the babes in arms—where we have a church whose restoration has to be paid for. By collecting waste paper from the village we obtain between £75 and £100 a year. I suggest that the individual does more of this rather than leaving it for his county council to do so, and in doing so the individual can support some worthy object.
Lastly—and again reference has been made to this—I come to glass. Your Lordships cannot but be aware that in recent years there has been an enormous increase in non-returnable bottles. Those of your Lordships who know me very well will realise that I do not refer to bottles which contain alcoholic liquor; I am talking about the bottles that contain tonic water, ginger ale, bitter lemon and such harmless substances. This is where I want to put a question to the noble Baroness. It would be churlish of
840
me to suggest there is anything the noble Baroness does not know, but if she cannot give me the answer to-night perhaps she would drop me a line later on. What I cannot make out is why bottles with screw tops are not returnable. I was a paper-maker, not a glass-maker, but they look to me exactly the same glass as that of the old bottles which were opened with a bottle opener—and one probably grazed one's thumb in doing it. Why are those bottles not returnable and why cannot one get one's threepence back on them? It seems to me pure and simple waste. If the noble Baroness could at some time give me an answer I should be most grateful.
6.1 p.m.
THE EARL OF LYTTON: My Lords, may I add my tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Darling of Hillsborough, on his very capable maiden speech. I must confess to some early confusion about his existence and I wondered how to reconcile it with that of another Lord Darling I used to know, and I think I do still, and Lord Alexander of Hillsborough who used to enliven this House. But I see that the noble Lord is not either of those two persons. I noticed that one of his remarks was what might be called "of a provocative nature" in almost any circumstances I can think of except this debate. He referred to "fatuous complacency" existing here, there and everywhere. When one uses this term on one side of the House almost invariably a noble Lord on the other side, fancying that the cap was intended to fit him, rises to say that fatuous complacency does not describe him or his Party at all. This point is evidence that this subject is highly suitable for even a maiden speaker to undertake, because nobody is against anything that has been said, and hardly could be.
I came to this House as a general consumer to join in this debate for one reason and one only. On page 15 of the Paper I notice it is said:
"Extending the life of a product and designing to permit repair can also help to reduce waste and conserve resources."
Then, at the bottom of that paragraph:
"… there is a lot that could be done to make certain products last longer."
I have always been at war with what I consider to be a deadly leprosy of production; namely, planned obsolescence. It is quite obvious that other noble Lords

841
who have spoken, and spoken better than I could, are equally convinced that this is so. First, the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, suggested that it was more important—and I thoroughly agree. I would say that prevention is to cure as ten is to one. This Green Paper, excellent though it is, devoted three lines to production that lasts longer and 1,500 lines to reclamation. Perhaps that was its purpose. But as I read paragraph 7 on page 15 it seems to throw out an idea, half take it away again, and then refer to it as something that may be considered at any old time. I join with other noble Lords in asking the Minister whether it is not the policy of the Government to oppose this obnoxious theme of planned obsolescence, which goes right through our metallic works, engines in particular.
I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, who selected the motor as an outstanding and glaring example. It is indeed. In my family we carry out our own repairs. I try to run machines for ten years. It is difficult to run an average small motor car for ten years. I have other machines which last a tremendous time—an Aga cooker for instance. We had one for 25 years; others have them longer. My best machine pumps water to our house every day, all day and all night, and has hardly ever stopped. Incidentally, it uses no fuel and no lubricant and was installed in 1912. I can still obtain replacements for it from the admirable makers, Blakes of Accrington. That is the kind of service that should be aimed at. Surely some Queen's award should go to the maker of a machine that is still operating although it started in the time of her great grandfather. That is the kind of thing we should aim at, rather than at products that last no time at all and for which, after a few years, spares are not available.
I am thinking of other examples. My son has just returned from tramping the earth with a rucksack. He noticed in Montevideo British Leyland buses manufactured in 1930. They keep going because that is a Latin country, and a Latin country is never defeated in making spares. He went on in his travels to Darjeeling and there saw a steam engine drawing its trucks up a mountain side, belching sparks and smoke in the good
842
old-fashioned way. It was a Krupp manufacture of 1911. I do not want to labour this matter because almost every speaker has laid greater or less stress upon it, but I associate myself with the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, and the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, in what they said on this subject.
I have two other observations which arise from what others have said. The noble Viscount, Lord Simon, spoke of food. I put a different point of view. Food shortages are not the phenomena that have troubled us in the West in my lifetime, but food surpluses. We are always having a mountain of something. We have had a beef mountain and a butter mountain, and in the 1930s there were cotton mountains and fish mountains, cocoa mountains, bean mountains and this, that and the other. It is a surplus of food and raw materials which has bothered us, not a shortage. I do not think on the aggregate there is a shortage, or a foreseeable shortage. But what worries me, and what I would hope might come to the consideration of nations at a higher level, is how to cope with the surpluses without destroying them. Is there no means at all of making a freeze bank in which these surpluses can be put—as my wife and I say when we discuss these things, like Joseph advising a Pharaoh in Egypt how to prepare for seven lean years by husbanding the resources of seven years of surplus? Is there no means whatever whereby these things can be stored in some way, if not for our own consumption, at least for the millions who are undernourished—75 million (shall we say?) in Bangladesh—and there are similar situations all over the place. The difficulty is one of distribution, and I refer to the matter because the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, raised it.
There is one last item I should like to mention because it touches something I have felt about and intended to say, and is a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek. It is that it is almost a waste of the human spirit to live in a high rise flat. I will end by telling your Lordships a story. I used to run the junior section of a working boys' club in Bermondsey. One day I was rash enough to say to one of the boys, who was about 12, "Are you looking forward to this slum clearance programme and the putting up of fine new

843
flats?" He looked at me and said, "If you mean the house I live in, with a front door and a back door, and a mud patch at the back, and a hen that sometimes lays an egg, and slates that come off the roof but we have a tin bath that catches the drips, I prefer to be where I am. I wouldn't like to live in any of those fiats that I have ever been in." He said, "Captain Millbanks, we don't call these slums. We much prefer them." I had not intended to be insulting but that, I think, is a point.
As a farmer concerned with food production I do not know what to say because, as you put up bungalows, cottages, and terrace houses instead of flats you occupy land where food could be produced. I do not know what the answer is, but I think that priority should go to the spirit of man. If these high dwellings are a waste of the spirit of man then they, like some of the conveyor belt operations, should be brought to an end by the co-operation of the nations at a higher level, because without concerted action we are defeated by competition.
My Lords, I have contributed a scrappy speech but it is often my task to come at the end of a debate when everybody has said everything that I wanted to say. However, I hope I have done my bit by underlining the excellent tilings that others have said.
6.12 p.m.
LORD SANDYS: My Lords, the House will indeed be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Darling of Hillsborough, for bringing, in his maiden speech, this important Green Paper before your Lordships at an early stage in this Parliament. I should like to take this opportunity of congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Birk, on her new appointment and responsibilities at the Department of the Environment.
My Lords, I owe my participation in this debate to the noble Baroness, Lady Emmet of Amberley, because it was her suggestion that I should join her in doing some original research into this subject during the winter of 1969. Also I took part with her in the debate referred to by several earlier speakers in March, 1970. Your Lordships will recollect that this was prior to Stockholm. The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, waved Stockholm
844
at us and we fully appreciate that the discussions there have a very important bearing upon the thinking of the present Government in this White Paper. But, my Lords, the particular subjects to which I should like to draw your Lordships' attention are ones that are not specifically mentioned. Certainly one is not specifically mentioned in this White Paper, and that is water.
In our debate in March, 1970, some of us, including myself, laid special emphasis on the need for the recycling of water and its very close relationship to the reclamation of waste land, or the use of land for reservoirs. I should like wholeheartedly to support my noble friend Lord Sandford in what he said about the Green Paper as a whole. He drew our attention to various paragraphs, but in this context I should like to draw your Lordships' attention once again to land reclamation, a subject with which the present Government are well acquainted, in Chapter 3, paragraph 24. There is a very close connection between the two and I should like to urge the noble Baroness, if I may-do so politely, once again to look at the problem of our water resources. I personally believe that a very great deal of land is being wasted. It is going under water as reservoirs—either planned, or in the course of construction, or to be planned in the next half century. It is a source of great anxiety to large numbers of amenity societies throughout the United Kingdom that such reservoirs should be planned. And, my Lords, there is a remedy.
I have had experience, as many others of your Lordships have had, in taking part in Select Committees on specific reservoir projects, and what has struck me on many occasions, either as a result of reading the papers of other bodies or being concerned with a specific project myself in the case of Calderdale, is the fact that so far as Government policy is concerned industry may use as much water as it likes. It is an ad lib policy. I drew your Lordships' attention to this in our debate in 1970. So far as I can see, there is not one word in this White Paper which refers to our second natural resource of water and relates it to our first natural resource of land. Certainly it does not occur in Chapter 3 to which I have already referred.

845
My Lords, if I may develop this theme a little further and venture into certain territory (I do not expect the noble Baroness to reply to these points, but I should like her to bear them in mind in the course of her discussions with the Department) there is a very important matter which is closely connected with our water resources. It is the desalination programme. In his previous office, the noble Lord, Lord Kennet, had a specific interest in this programme, and it is my personal regret to-day that he has not been able to take part in this debate and mention this subject, because when he was at the Department he took a special interest in the pilot project in East Anglia. The desalination programme is a long and sad story because, unfortunately, due to expert advice, the wrong process was chosen. It was uneconomic. Unfortunately, the desalination programme now enjoys a very low category of priority, whereas, had the other process been chosen, it might well be providing another arm to a very valuable natural resource. What was intended at one time was that the generation of atomic power should be closely linked and closely associated with the desalination programme. Instead of this, so far as I know at the present moment, there is no direct link.
My Lords, I should like to venture a little further into the sea and mention once more a second natural resource which is not specifically mentioned. I do not make a complaint or a point about this, because in the chapter referring to a schedule of resources it says specifically that it is not exhaustive. I accept that entirely. Seaweed is a natural resource which surrounds our island, and once again I draw your Lordships' attention to its presence as a free natural resource which is available as a useful fertiliser. I referred to this last week in your Lordships' House in the debate on agriculture. I am wondering whether we can take this a stage further and mention in this connection the Marine Biological Institute at Plymouth which has a very great deal of specific and highly specialised knowledge on the role of seaweed in sea life. Your Lordships will be aware with dismay that the Soviet proposals for expanding their fishing fleet and employing what is commonly termed the Hoover technique of fishing out large areas of the Atlantic and other parts of the seas and oceans of the
846
world, includes the deprivation of this natural resource. To the Marine Biological Institute we can look, surely, to examine the case for the further possibility of the seaweed which surrounds our coasts as a useful natural resource.
My Lords, once again there is no specific mention of the reclaiming of land from the sea. As one of those who participated on several occasions in debates on the third London airport, I feel that this is an omission which could, perhaps, be remedied. One of the more exciting elements in that programme was the reclaiming of a large area of the East coast from the North Sea. Your Lordships will also be aware that there are areas where, due to tides and currents surrounding these islands, there is a degree of coastal erosion taking place which is not being specifically safeguarded by either a reclamation programme or a programme of revetting our seashore. Curiously enough, it was in the last century that a great interest was shown in Parliament on this matter, and at a time when a large number of the lighthouses were constructed great interest was shown in connection with our penal programme. I am wondering whether, once again, there may be a link between these two and that as part of the Home Office programme the Prison Service might investigate the possibility of reclamation of the coastline. This is a long shot, but I put these ideas forward because we are attempting to examine the war on waste and surely our first consideration should be the wastage of the coast of our islands.
I was much encouraged, as I am sure were many of your Lordships, in the closing sentences of the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, referring to the evils of technocratic man. I felt it was a cry from the heart when he referred to population pressure on a limited earth. We have much to learn from other countries, especially from Holland whose knowledge of the North Sea and the reclamation of land from the maw of the sea is of special value to us. I am just wondering whether in the European programme there may be a possibility of joining hands in cooperating in ventures which would be of mutual benefit to those countries.
I do not wish to speak for long on this subject towards the end of a long

847
debate, and I have not given specific notice to the noble Baroness for which I apologise, so naturally I do not expect her to reply to the points I am making. But I return to what my noble friend Lord Sandford said in his opening remarks. This Green Paper has been put together hastily. That such haste has been combined with a fragmentary examination of the subject is a pity, because the debate which the noble Baroness, Lady Emmet of Amberley, instituted in March, 1970, attempted to cover a much wider field of the subject as a whole.
At that time we felt there was a real possibility that the reclamation of waste paper would be looked upon as a matter of urgency, and it was in this connection that the noble Baroness and I traced a journey of waste paper from your Lordships' House and another place to its recycling further down the Thames. For that reason I was most interested to listen to the speech made by the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, in connection with the problems arising from waste and the ullage from paper mills. I say that because when the noble Baroness and I visited the Thames Board Mills we discovered that at that time—and this may be true to-day—a large quantity of paper from Europe, particularly from Holland, was being imported, for which we paid valuable foreign exchange. In order to meet the requirements of the Board Mills we were using valuable currency which could quite easily have been saved by a re-use of our own waste paper in this country.
I should here say—and I think it is only fair to say it—that the City of Westminster has a special responsibility for Parliament and this it carries out to the full. It is something that we can be proud of that paper from this House, of which we generate enormous quantities, eventually becomes containers and other useful objects. Perhaps there is a message here!
6.25 p.m.
LORD REDESDALE: My Lords, I hope that the noble Baroness and the House will forgive me for not putting my name down on the list, but I did not think that I should be able to be present. However, I should like to leave with the noble Baroness one or two thoughts to
848
which she obviously cannot reply at such short notice. The main thought that I wish to put over is this. One can have as much reclamation as one is prepared to pay for. For example, power stations operate at about 30 per cent. efficiency. If you use district heating this figure can rise to 70 per cent., but the costs are obviously higher. Equally, you can have reclamation of paper if you are prepared to give grants. I appreciate that this is a question not for the Department of the Environment but for the Department of Trade and Industry, and, that therefore the noble Baroness will not be able to reply, but again it is something for which one pays.
I should like to suggest that we could get a very high reclamation of paper, especially of computer paper, which is shredded and therefore makes a vast bulk and is destroyed. But it could be re-compacted by baling in the same way as various other forms of waste paper, and then sold relatively cheaply. I suggest that the Department of Trade and Industry should look at the question of giving grants for companies installing baling equipment. The same applies in the case of other items, although the position is somewhat more complicated; for example, the recovery of toxic matter, whether it be metals or other material. On a straight basis of recovery they are not economic, but if a grant were given for the installation of the appropriate equipment they might be economic. I hope that the House will forgive me for this late intervention, but I should like to leave that thought with the noble Baroness.
6.27 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT (BARONESS BIRK): My Lords, may I first say how grateful I am to the noble Lord, Lord Darling of Hillsborough, for initiating this debate and I also congratulate him on a rare double. In his opening speech he gave such clear proof of his past and present credentials in the field of recycling and reclamation of materials, that I certainly cannot hope to match his undoubted knowledge of the reclamation industry, nor, may I hastily add, that of almost everybody else who has spoken. We have had an extremely expert discussion, even if it has not been

849
an actual debate. As this is my first real baptism of fire as a Government spokesman on environmental matters—and I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, and the noble Lord, Lord Sandys, for their kind remarks—it would not be an exaggeration for me to say that I really feel up to the neck in waste at the moment! In my verbal output I will try to take as my text, "Waste not, want not". But I fear that so many important points have been raised by noble Lords that I must ask your Lordships to bear with me while I try, however inadequately, to deal with as many of them as I can. Those with which I am unable to deal, either due to lack of time or lack of knowledge, I will reply to in writing.
Yesterday's Budget must surely have concentrated our thinking most wondrously. When my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke about waste he was making a specific point about energy and also expressing an attitude of mind, and I thought it extremely interesting that on the front page of one of the editions of the Evening Standard last night the paragraph regarding energy was headlined, "War on waste". Therefore, I think his arguments and the debate together could not come at a more pertinent time.
The Green Paper is intended to give an indication of the Government's thinking on the issue of reclamation. The document was published as a Green Paper as a practical basis to demonstrate the value which the Government place on a dialogue with interested organisations, experts and ordinary individuals. It is true that we are having this debate at an early stage in the life of the Green Paper, which means that although the main Government Departments concerned have drawn it to the attention of many of the trade and professional associations and local authorities, few have had time to comment. Therefore, unfortunately, I cannot today give some of the reactions which would have been extremely interesting. However, there is great merit in having it at this early stage, because this debate, taking place in a consultative body of such very high quality as this—your Lordships' House—must make an extremely important contribution to the national debate. Possibly it has helped to move it forward to an earlier stage, to help clarify many of the issues and to
850
act as encouragement to many others to study other things, because the views expressed here will trigger off a great many views from people who either agree or disagree. Therefore, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, and to the noble Lord, Lord Sandys, who followed him, not unnaturally, along the same path, that the document has done its job very well. If they had both stood up and said, "Yes, we agree with every word in it; there is nothing more to say about it", this Green Paper would not have been a discussion document. So I feel that we have support from those two noble Lords, particularly from the noble Lord, Lord Sandford, who took the major part in that partnership. There were a great many ideas and comments of great interest. And it cannot be true, as my noble friend Lord Davies of Leek said, that his contribution was due to his indisposition to-day. His contribution was provocative and interesting, and extremely valuable, because he brought out a great number of points which needed to be brought out.
My Lords, all the issues which have come out in to-day's debate have extended over a wide sphere. Although I have strong feelings on high-rise flats and the waste of the spirit of the community, I hope noble Lords will forgive me if I do not comment on these as they fall outside the Green Paper. My noble friend Lord Davies of Leek did not disappoint me, because he managed to bring in the Common Market as well, but I shall not comment on that.
One of the questions that we do not need to ask is, "Why do we need a reclamation policy?" I was personally delighted that there was such a consensus of opinion agreeing with my own thinking, that the sheer appearance of parts of our environment is a certain recipe for making eyes sore. The pollution that is man-made is something with which we should refuse to live. The health hazards of unrecovered waste are far-reaching and quite unacceptable. In fact, the whole moral, social and aesthetic reasons for protecting our country from the ravages of waste make the ecological case as important as the economic one in treating the war on waste as a high priority. On any basis one wants to take, we simply cannot afford to ignore this fact. We cannot afford to let our children grow up

851
accustomed to a polluted, ugly, grotesquely wasteful society. We cannot afford to multilate our countryside for more raw materials while we are gradually suffocated by an endless flow of waste, neither used nor properly disposed of.
My Lords, here I would take note of the point made by my noble friend Lady White on the difference between the collection and the disposal of waste in Wales and in this country, and the effect that that will have in practical terms. It struck me as ironic, also, that the Press, who, to their credit, have used reams of paper to emphasise this tremendous problem in both newspapers and magazines, find that much of it will eventually add to the piles of paper which are literally wasted.
I find it not surprising that women figure prominently among those who have written to the Government urging the development of a national policy on the reclamation and recycling of waste. Many of the points put forward on behalf of housewives were made most eloquently by my noble friend Lady White, and also by the noble Baroness, Lady Hylton-Foster. The National Federation of Women's Institutes, the National Association of Women's Clubs, of which the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, is Secretary, the WRVS and the National Federation of Business and Professional Women's Clubs in Great Britain and Northern Ireland have all passed resolutions at their annual conferences this year urging Government action in this sphere. The National Council of Women recently published a report, Recycling for Survival.
As a housewife, I understand this concern. It is not just a social or an economic matter which we can look at and appreciate, and want to do something about. It is a matter which becomes extremely personal. I am fortunate enough to have a waste disposal unit in my sink. The only trouble is that it will not "munch up" all the things I want to put into it. so it tends to go wrong. Still, my Lords, this is one of the ways in which part of the domestic waste can be dealt with. I am delighted to know that some council flats and houses are having these units installed.
852
We must remind ourselves of what I like to call "conceptual friction", the friction which works between the recognition of the finite limits to some of our natural resources—and there are limits—the need to conserve (mentioned by several noble Lords) and the expendable luxuries in this throw-away society. As the Prime Minister said on Monday, it lies within our power to save hundreds of millions of pounds on the nation's import bill, and to contribute to the environment in doing so. Without going into further detail, I think that covers to some extent the point made, quite rightly, by my noble friend Lord Darling of Hillsborough.
However, the Green Paper is an attempt to clarify all these issues in relation to the handling of waste. Its aims can be generally described as descriptive, analytical, prescriptive and the mobilisation effort. We have described what is already being done, and in sufficient detail to show how much reclamation already takes place. Noble Lords who have spoken are so much at home with the Green Paper that I will not go over it again in any detail. The total turnover of the reclamation industry already amounts to several hundred million pounds. In our analysis, we have identified urgent reasons for further effort, and areas for activity. The Green Paper goes on to prescribe suggestions for future policies and explains the machinery established at central Government level to give assistance and guidance. This centres inevitably on the proposed Waste Management Advisory Council.
Although, because it has not yet been finalised, I am afraid that I am unable to give the names of the members of the Council which my noble friend Lady White and other noble Lords asked me to give. I can say that this matter is under discussion almost at this moment. It is hoped that the first meeting will take place before the end of the year. The Council will consist of leading representatives of industry, local authorities, the academic world and conservation interests. A great many of the points raised to-day will be part of the constant working brief of the Council. There have already been attempts to mobilise further effort by locally structured schemes. We want to see that effort maintained. It is effort—
LORD SANDFORD: My Lords, if I may interrupt the noble Baroness before she leaves the question of the Waste Management Advisory Council, I asked her a question on the Council and I think that the noble Baroness, Lady White, and the noble Earl, Lord Shannon, also indicated an interest in it. If avoidance and reduction of waste is the first and the most important step, does this fall within the terms of reference of the Council, or does it not?
BARONESS BIRK: Yes, my Lords, as I understand it, it certainly does. The terms of reference of the Council as set out in the Green Paper are very wide. I am very glad that the noble Lord interrupted me at that point, because I forgot to mention that the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, and I think also by the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, regarding financial incentives is covered in the remit of the Council. It is concerned with administrative and economic affairs as well. So it really should be the body which takes initiatives and acts as a watchdog. It has an extremely wide and open brief which I think is the kind of brief it should have. However, if the effort at local level is to have any success it must involve local industry, local government and local will, which means local people both individually and collectively working in a voluntary capacity. This is something to which I should like to return.
First, I should emphasise that the Green Paper acknowledges industry's already considerable efforts and achievements in the reclamation field. These involve primary producers and processers, who take great pains to conserve raw materials. I happen to know, as possibly do other noble Lords, that both the Thames Board Mills and Maybank will man baling press machinery while local authority staff are being trained, and the Thames Board Mills has a team which goes to local authorities to set up the operation. This is really just the beginning of what might be a greater partnership between industry and local authority, which would help local authority with the very severe financial strictures which are upon it at the present time.
The secondary industries, such as scrap merchants and chemical recovery firms,
854
naturally make as good a job as they can as their livelihoods depend upon reclamation and recycling. Three recent Reports of Working Parties on glass, plastic, metal packaging and containers, set up by the relevant industries, have been invaluable as basic studies and all credit to those industries concerned. Although I by no means have the answer to everything which the noble Viscount, Lord Monck, was kind enough to say—I think I will have to write to him about the glass bottle problem, which fills me with complete amazement and is a question that I keep on asking—I will mention briefly something which has been raised in different ways by very many noble Lords. It fits into this very large problem of techniques which involve either mechanical stress or strain and applies to the bottles to which he referred. It is unfortunate that many of the techniques required, the transport and the sheer cost of reclaiming these materials, is greater than the cost of disposing of them, or of leaving them just as they are in a heap or as litter. This is one of the very great problems which will require all the ingenuity of industry—to which I think the noble Ear, Lord Courtown, referred, as also did the noble Earl, Lord Shannon—and require also tremendously close partnership between everybody involved.
I ought to mention here industry's initiative in putting forward a proposal for a Waste Exchange Market, which we welcome in the Green Paper. Action has followed on this matter, and the Department of Industry is funding the concept of a United Kingdom Waste Materials Exchange, which is a better title for it because it is not really a market. This will be experimental for two years at a cost of £70.000 and will be free to participants. This is a very positive example of the Government giving not only a lead but finance to a worthwhile project.
So far so good, my Lords. But industry still needs further to explore the degree to which reclaimed raw materials can be used within existing processes, and this could mean changing the nature of its manufacturing processes—I think I am right in saying that the noble Earl, Lord Courtown, spoke about this—to make more use of waste products; the development of increasingly sophisticated

855
recovery techniques and, also, the modification of product design to make reclamation viable. On this matter I so agree with my noble friend Lady White that all these things have to be started at source if we are to obtain any real results, so that we design the kind of thing which can either go on being used or if it has to be replaced can be recycled with the greatest ease. This is imperative.
It is also imperative that industry recognises—and it is beginning to do so in certain areas, without a doubt—the need to co-operate with the relevant local authority. There is really no doubt that the greatest potential for extending reclamation of materials for re-use lies with waste collection by local authorities. This does not mean that they should, or that they can, rush blindly into collection schemes. There is no point in trying to evade or overlook the question of finance, the question of priorities, the tremendous degree to which local authorities are stretched in their expenditure. Since the Budget yesterday brought a cut in public expenditure, which I am afraid was quite inevitable, the problem will be even greater.
I would say to all noble Lords who have criticised the Green Paper as being either rather waffling or not precise enough that it is easy to be precise when one can allocate large funds to a service but it is very much more difficult when one is trying to co-ordinate various ideas to try to encourage and persuade industry, individuals, local authorities, voluntary bodies, to work together. We cannot afford as a living society to let waste continue. We are really saying—let me be quite honest—that reclamation has to be done by people on ingenuity and on a financial shoestring for the time being so far as Government and local authority funds are concerned.
There are, of course, areas of activity in which local government can make short-term achievements without great expense. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Darling of Hillsborough, will appreciate that when he considers his remarks on local authorities in this context. Also when it comes to the question of salvaging, to which he also referred, local authorities have developed their refuse services as a service of public health for the nation; although in harsher times
856
more salvaging was undertaken, we must consider whether the wasteful habits of to-day can be reversed. I agree with him about that point. I urge the recognition that collection and disposal must have a priority in terms of public health, but that, nevertheless, the standards of reclamation and disposal must be raised. There is this very important public health element which often raises costs and slows down the activity.
When we come to the question of our voluntary efforts, society has always benefited from voluntary help, and I hope to see this continue in almost every field possible. I think that we have to-day more voluntary help than we ever had available, and particularly among the young; we also have far greater resources of voluntary manpower and womanpower. But I agree with all those noble Lords who have said that we cannot really expect householders to be asked to separate their refuse and then when the collection van comes round, if it does (and it does not always), see it all flung in together and jumbled up. There is nothing more irritating. As a busy housewife, there is nothing more time wasting—and here this is a waste of time as well as everything else—than to see this happen. I can promise personally to make sure that certainly my male colleagues are prodded about this constantly.
I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Darling of Hillsborough, who was asking the question about voluntary auxiliaries helping local authorities. First of all, not only is it right, but we cannot afford anything else. On the other hand, it is also true to say that the voluntary organisations—once having said that they are not always treated as well as they should be in this field—must also prove their own reliability, otherwise the whole thing falls down. If you get a spurt of interest and then everybody loses heart the rubbish piles up and nothing happens to it at all. That, together with the co-operation needed from individuals, trade unions, and from almost any group of people one can mention, illustrates the critical interdependence of working groups in the community, and the crucial importance of realistic analysis which weighs up the various viable alternatives.
The role of central Government must be to provide a deeper understanding of

857
reclamation opportunities, and also to encourage all those concerned to organise themselves and make the most use of reclamation, and to develop appropriate policies to promote the right methods. This will, in due course, be channelled through the proposed Waste Management Advisory Council, which is under Ministerial chairmanship.
Central Government has already taken some further initiatives. There has been constant and effective liaison between Departments, which has been appreciated by your Lordships, in looking at the particular issues involved. The Government are expanding their own programme of research and development—and I think this was a point raised by the noble Earl, Lord Shannon—particularly with the sponsorship of the waste recovery service at Warren Springs laboratory. I am sure the noble Earl knows about this, but I should be happy to write to any other noble Lord, as I do not think I can take the time to go into the detail of this extremely interesting pioneer effort.
The agents for action are available and the climate is right for a war on waste. What we have to look at is the wasteful nature, as has been pointed out, of some of our own activities and habits. There are of course great advantages in our present technological developments. Although many of us try to escape to a greater sort of simplicity of life, I do not see it as a practical possibility to be able to turn the clock technologically back. There are people who are living in communes and family groups who are trying to effect a do-it-yourself society, but this is quite impossible on any large scale. Nevertheless, there are things, if we take them seriously enough, that we could learn to do without. We can also do more for ourselves, where we keep the basic utensils, like making our own jams.
Many of your Lordships have pointed out, and I agree, that the Green Paper does not emphasise perhaps sufficiently the possibilities of improving production standards and changing product design and packaging. It is not that they have been overlooked, but they are to be considered in due course by the Waste Management Advisory Council. We do not want to throw out the article with the packaging, because many goods need its protection, and much of the packaging in which goods are contained has been
858
the result of recycling. Nevertheless, I should have liked to see in some areas what I would call two tiers of goods. For instance, in regard to cosmetics, if I buy something for myself, it takes me a good deal of time to get into the packaging in order to get the article out.
Here there is an awful waste of paper, cardboard, plastic. I do not usually want to pay the extra price which, to some extent, this operation must involve. However, if I wish to give such things as presents, then I am prepared to pay a little more for the pretty packaging that becomes part of the gift. An early priority of the Waste Management Advisory Council—and I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Hylton-Foster, will be pleased about this—will be the establishment of a study group on packaging and containers. As I have made clear, this will be a study close to my own heart.
Finally, it is imperative that each one of us makes a positive contribution to this war on waste. There are different ways in which we can do it: by co-operating in any local schemes, by being economical in the use of our materials and packaging, and by not consigning returnable containers to the dustbin. In spite of all the comments about those products that are not taken back for reclamation, it is really quite horrendous that a survey in 1972 on litter commissioned by the Glass Manufacturers Federation—I think that the noble Viscount will be interested in this—showed that in 53 locations of all the glass containers left as litter, 27·5 per cent. were milk bottles. In another survey of which I have heard, it was discovered that a significant percentage of discarded bottles were in fact those on which deposits had been paid. Therefore, there really is a great deal that even the individual who is concerned only with his own particular purse can do.
With my noble friend Lord Davies of Leek, I am a great believer in education wherever you can use it, both for the young and for adults. In this area I personally believe that where local education authorities take an interest in waste it is not only immensely helpful but is laying a firm foundation for the future. This is why I was very pleased to learn of a recent environmental education project at a school in Buxton which was

859
organised by the local regional office of the Keep Britain Tidy group in conjunction with industry and others. In this project, the students of a school, together with parents, friends and neighbours, collected non-returnable clear glass containers over a four-week period to go to a co-operative glass works at Worksop. Over 42,000 containers were collected, and the campaign also unearthed a further 4,000 drip feed bottles from a Manchester hospital. This shows what can be done when there is a will.
It is also encouraging that reclamation and recycling are included in various examination syllabuses, such as the GCE in general studies. This is certainly one way of changing the social habits of future generations. From my past duties as chairman of the Health Education Council, I am also a great believer, if you can do it in the right way, of attempting to educate adults as well. I do not think that any of us are beyond that. We must accept that we will not implement a policy of reclamation overnight. We must accept that there will always be some waste, but what we have to avoid is wasteful waste, and ugly waste.
We will not change the habits of the nation at a stroke; we will not change the production capacity of the paper industry to absorb all the waste paper we could collect and to re-use at a stroke, and even if we built a mountain of empty glass containers we certainly could not order the economic re-use of the mountain of glass at a stroke. But we can try to do the various things which I and other noble Lords have mentioned. We can try to educate and persuade by the clever use of publicity. Here I entirely agree with my noble friend Lady White that it is extremely important how you use publicity, where you use it and for what purpose. I can assure her that, certainly to the best of my ability, I will stress the necessity of precision at every juncture. Otherwise a further pile of waste paper material will be filling waste paper baskets all over the country.
We have to avoid the wasteful consumption of petrol by cars. At the moment, it looks as though the increase in price will do a particularly good job in that respect, but there are also some steps that we can take to eliminate waste
860
through some personal saving in expend-diture. It is amazing how unaware many of us are that we make things more expensive for ourselves by our own personal choices. A change in attitudes is a long-term process, but it can flow at the beginning only from a discussion of the problems. The debate to-day has certainly started that discussion in your Lordships' House and in Parliament. Let the debate continue until the stage of action is reached.
THE EARL OF SHANNON: My Lords, before the noble Baroness sits down, as she mentioned the matter of Warren Spring, would she concede that the best results are likely to emanate from industry, and that this is where the support should be given and not necessarily to Government laboratories? I tried to stress this point. If she would concede that this is where the best results will lie it will probably stop this experiment being called "God's or the Government's gift to Warren Spring".
BARONESS BIRK: My Lords, what I was trying, apparently unsuccessfully, to argue was the whole concept of partnership. Of course we depend on industry for this and one hopes industry will take an even greater lead. To refer to the Warren Spring experiment is not to take a crack at industry. It is merely giving an example of what can be done and what further should be done. I agree that the bigger the lead and the more industry does the more pleased the Government will be.
7.3 p.m.
LORD DARLING OF HILLSBOROUGH: My Lords, I should like to thank those noble Lords who have commented so favourably—I do not know whether I have deserved it—on my introducing this debate. I have listened carefully to all but one of the speeches. They have ben very interesting. I may frighten noble Lords by saying that they prompt me to make another speech of about three-quarters of an hour in length, but I am going to practice self-denial because there will be further opportunities to examine the subject.
I thoroughly agree with some of the speeches which have been made; I profoundly disagree with some of the observations, including the last one made by the noble Earl, Lord Shannon. I am not altogether in agreement with some

861
of the views of the noble Baroness, Lady Birk. I should certainly like an opportunity of replying to the Opposition Front Bench speakers, but I will not pursue that now. I will practice self-denial and beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

  DEALERS IN FIREARMS
  DEALERS IN FIREARMS
  FIRE PRECAUTIONS: DESIGNATED PREMISES
  FIRE PRECAUTIONS: DESIGNATED PREMISES
  ADMIRALTY BOOK OF REFERENCE
  ADMIRALTY BOOK OF REFERENCE