Sitting of 28 March 1974

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  HOME DEPARTMENT

    Broadcasting
    Mr. Whiteheadasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will now set up an inquiry into broadcasting.
    The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr Roy Jenkins): I hope to make a statement shortly about the Government's policy on the future of broadcasting.
    Mr. Whitehead: I thank my right hon. Friend for that reply. Will he bear in mind that it is now over four years since the last Labour Government asked Lord Annan to undertake an inquiry into broadcasting and that in the intervening period concern about the future development of broadcasting has increased and ought now to be diminished by the setting up of an inquiry?
    Mr. Jenkins: It is now nearly four years since Ministers have been in a position to ask people officially to undertake inquiries, but I shall bear in mind what my hon. Friend says.
    Mr. Gorst: Has the attention of the right hon. Gentleman been drawn to a report that a Mr. Lucas is to be the £7,000-a-year managing director of the future Radio Forth, that he has been in the position of investigating applications for local radio franchises in the department of the IBA which appointed the contractors, and that he is now to join the winning contractor? Does the right hon. Gentleman not feel that this is a subject for a broadcasting inquiry to pursue, particularly with regard to the
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    conduct of the IBA as this is a matter which is seemingly improper, if not worse?
    Mr. Jenkins: My attention was drawn to the matter literally two minutes ago as I walked into the House. I will study the hon. Gentleman's question, and if he wishes to write further to me on this subject I shall certainly have it investigated and write to him.
    Mr. Arthur Lewis: The Home Secretary just mentioned that his attention was drawn to the case a few moments ago. Was his attention drawn to the details of the case which I reported to his private secretary about an hour ago, of the LBC at noon today having a self-confessed safebreaker on the radio, extolling the virtues of his profession and explaining how anyone can mix up nitro-glycerine to blow up safes? Does he not think it deplorable that people like this should speak on the radio, allowing vandals and others to hear such information, and will he take action to prevent it?
    Mr. Jenkins: My attention was drawn to a different point which my hon. Friend had raised by telephone this morning. It did not relate to LBC at all. I shall, however, look into the matter which my hon. Friend has raised, just as I shall look into the one raised by the hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. Douglas Henderson: Will the right hon. Gentleman, in setting up an inquiry, take into account the desire of the people of Scotland to have their own broadcasting corporation responsive to Scottish needs?
    Mr. Jenkins: I note what the hon. Gentleman says.

    Immigration
    Mr. Tebbitasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if it is his policy to make any changes in the regulations concerning the admission of immigrants.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: I propose to make such limited changes as from time to time seem to be desirable.
    Mr. Tebbit: Will the purpose of those limited changes be to increase or decrease the number of Commonwealth immigrants coming to this country?
    Mr. Jenkins: The purpose will be neither to increase nor to decrease the numbers but to try to operate what is generally agreed to be necessary immigration controls in a way compatible with both justice and humanity.
    Mr. Ford: Will my right hon. Friend do everything possible and take every care to seek to bring families together, particularly in cases where the male has been working over here and making a contribution for several years?
    Mr. Jenkins: Yes, I note what my hon. Friend has said, and I am aware of his experience of these problems in his constituency.
    Mr. Lane: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm or deny a report in The Guardian yesterday about illegal immigrants? If he is thinking of replacing the last Government's case-by-case approach by a general amnesty for an uncertain number of illegal immigrants, will he bear in mind that this would also have the effect of giving a right of entry to a much larger number, possibly several thousands, of their dependants?
    Mr. Jenkins: There is a later Question on this issue.
    Mr. Boardman: Will the Home Secretary give an assurance that before making any relaxation of the regulations he will have the fullest consultation with local authorities and other responsible bodies in cities such as Leicester, which will feel the main impact of any such changes?
    Mr. Jenkins: I shall bear that consideration in mind in making any major change affecting numbers, but, as I indicated in my reply to the original Question, I referred to limited changes, and I do not regard the decision which I took last week relating to the reuniting of split families amongst Ugandan Asians as being other than limited and highly desirable.

    Shoplifting
    Mr. Adleyasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will take steps designed to prevent the increase in shoplifting from supermarkets.
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Dr. Shirley Summerskill): The Home Office Stand-
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    ing Committee on Crime Prevention is to consider the hon. Member's suggestion for an experiment in ways of reducing the incidence of shoplifting in food supermarkets.
    Mr. Adley: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for that most helpful reply. I will leave it at that. I express my gratitude to her.

    Price Sisters
    Mr. Biffenasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what representations have been received requesting the transfer of the Price sisters to a prison in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: Representations have been received from a number of organisations and individuals. I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave to a Question by my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. Rose) on 20th March.—[Vol. 870, c. 123.]
    Mr. Biffen: I have that reply. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is a widespread understanding in this House of the real difficulties that surround any decisions concerning the imprisonment of the Price sisters. None the less, will he say what consultations he has had with the Northern Ireland Executive on this matter and what opinions have been expressed to him either by Mr. Brian Faulkner or by the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt)?
    Mr. Jenkins: I have not myself had direct consultations, although I have naturally been in touch—as I would with any matters of this sort—with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.
    Mr. Lipton: Will my right hon. Friend bear in mind that Brixton was never intended to accommodate women prisoners, that their presence imposes a heavy additional responsibility on the prison authorities, and that the frequent demonstrations taking place outside the prison inconvenience the families of prison officers and other local residents as well as adding to the burden of already overstrained police in Brixton?
    Mr. Jenkins: I am aware of that point. Indeed, in a published letter which I wrote to my noble Friend Lord Brockway—which was, I think, fairly widely reported in the Press—I dealt with this matter at somewhat greater length than is possible in reply to a Parliamentary Question. I said that Brixton is not a suitable prison for them to be kept in over a long period.
    Mr. Norman Fowler: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that, bearing in mind the seriousness of the offences committed and the possible prison security risk involved, the prime concern must be that these prisoners remain under maximum security conditions? If he agrees with that, will he say what maximum security facilities are available for women prisoners in Northern Ireland?
    Mr. Jenkins: The latter question is hypothetical. I agree—indeed, I stressed in replies which I have given—that regard has to be had to security considerations. I have some regard to other considerations, but I shall certainly have regard to security considerations as well.
    Mr. Fell: In considering this whole matter will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that it would be a severe affront to many people in this country were the Price sisters to be returned to Ireland?
    Mr. Jenkins: I shall bear in mind that it would be a severe affront to the hon. Gentleman.

    Offenders (Rehabilitation)
    Mr. Dykesasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he plans to introduce measures to deal with the rehabilitation of offenders.
    The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Alexander W. Lyon): My right hon. Friend is considering the desirability of legislation on this subject, but he is not yet in a position to make a statement.
    Mr. Dykes: I appreciate that it is early days, but does not the Minister agree that this is one of the most important aspects of the reform of the penal code and that the sooner something can be proposed formally the better? There is widespread public sympathy with the idea that offenders who have served their sentences should not afterwards suffer, year
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    in, year out, for penalties and crimes of a historical nature.
    Mr. Lyon: As the hon. Gentleman will know from the debate we had on this subject on the Private Member's Bill, I sympathise with the principle and hope that we shall be able to do something about it. We are investigating the matter.
    Mr. Marks: Is my hon. Friend aware that the Rehabilitation of Offenders Bill, a Private Member's Bill, had reached Committee when the General Election was called? A similar Bill had been through all stages in another place. Will my hon. Friend hasten Government consideration of this urgent problem?
    Mr. Lyon: Yes, Sir.
    Sir George Young: Is the Minister aware that the Home Office grants payable to those charitable organisations which provide accommodation for offenders after they are released are in urgent need of review if such organisations are to continue to make provision for offenders?
    Mr. Lyon: As that goes outside the terms of the Question, I should prefer the hon. Gentleman to write to me about it. I shall certainly see that it is considered.
    Mr. Prior: As the Government are short of legislation and the Bill is in a form in which it could immediately be introduced into the House, why do they not get on with it?
    Mr. Lyon: The answer is that the Government are not short of legislation.

    Parliamentary Elections
    Mr. Beithasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will introduce legislation to provide that no elector shall be registered at one time in more than one constituency in respect of parliamentary elections.
    Dr. Summerskill: My right hon. Friend is considering this in the context of the recommendations made by Mr. Speaker's Conference in the last Parliament.
    Mr. Beith: In considering this matter, will the hon. Lady bear in mind not only the difficulties caused to electoral registration officers by the law as it stands but the fact that many people who

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    have weekend cottages have the opportunity to switch their votes between constituencies on the basis of whichever is the more marginal of the two in which they are registered? Will she bear in mind also the need for adequate safeguards against double voting in one General Election?
    Dr. Summerskill: I am aware of those facts. Mr. Speaker's Conference recommended unanimously that multiple registration should be prohibited. But it seems likely that major representation of the people legislation will have to await a later Session.
    Dr. Edmund Marshall: Is my hon. Friend aware that under present legislation it is possible for a person who is registered in two constituencies to vote at all by-elections in those constituencies even if, by chance, the by-elections occur on the same day? Does this not infringe the democratic principle of one man, one vote?
    Dr. Summerskill: I am aware that dual or multiple registration increases the risk of plural voting, and this was borne in mind by Mr. Speaker's Conference.
    Mrs. Kellett-Bowman: As the hon. Lady has replied that the recommendation was unanimous, why need there be delay? Why should not legislation be be brought in this Session?
    Dr. Summerskill: It is a precedent followed by all Governments, including the last Labour Government and the last Conservative Government, that legislation concerning representation of the people should not be introduced in a piecemeal manner. We are awaiting the final recommendations of Mr. Speaker's Conference.
    Mr. Tylerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is satisfied that the absence of the presiding officer's mark on a ballot paper should automatically invalidate it; and whether he will seek powers to leave this matter to the discretion of individual returning officers.
    Dr. Summerskill: My right hon. Friend believes that this is a valuable safeguard which it would be wrong to abandon, and that to leave a discretion to the returning officers would be undesirable.
    Mr. Tyler: Is the hon. Lady aware that in my constituency in the recent election no fewer than 86 persons were disfranchised for this reason? While it is true that, had they been included, my majority would have been more than doubled—from 9 to 19—is it not still a matter of concern that in certain circumstances the declared will of the electorate could be flouted by a mistake in the electoral system?
    Dr. Summerskill: I sympathise with the hon. Gentleman's predicament, but the object of the requirement is to safeguard against the introduction of stolen or fabricated ballot papers into the ballot boxes or at the count. It would place the returning officers in an extremely invidious position if it were left to their discretion to decide what was valid and what was not.
    Dr. Edmund Marshallasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he intends to make recommendations to electoral registration officers for improving the accuracy of registers.
    Dr. Summerskill: My right hon. Friend does not think that any general guidance is called for. Electoral registration officers are aware of the need for the register to be as acurate as it is humanly possible to make it.
    Dr. Marshall: In view of the large number of people who found at the recent General Election that they had been omitted from the electoral register, will my hon. Friend ask the Secretary of State to impress on electoral registration officers the need for the fullest possible canvass when compiling the register, including the delivery each year of registration forms to all places of residence, and a personal visit to those homes from which no form is returned?
    Dr. Summerskill: Yes, we are bearing those points in mind. We are encouraging the public to take the opportunity of checking the lists, which are available before the register is finally compiled. The present law prevents the correction of the register having effect at an election if it is made after notice of that election is given. I propose to arrange for further consideration to be given to that provision.
    Mr. Tom King: Is the hon. Lady aware that, after all the canvassing and other

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    arrangements have been carried through, mistakes still occur? Should not there be a facility for some subsequent amendment to be carried out? In one particularly unfortunate case, a vicar in my constituency urged everybody that it was his Christian duty to vote in the election and then found that he was himself disqualified from doing so.
    Dr. Summerskill: I think that cases such as that described by the hon. Gentleman are covered by my final remarks, when I said that I hope to make it possible to alter or correct the register after an election is announced.
    Mr. Arthur Lewis: Will the Minister consider the position of areas containing a large immigrant population, where landlords who are illegally charging too much rent and illegally failing to report those rents to the income tax authorities deliberately burn the forms when they arrive because they do not want the names to be put on the register? Is my hon. Friend aware that there may be 20 or 30 people living in the same house, for which landlords are drawing 20 or 30 rents of £10 each per week? Will the Minister consider this aspect, of which details have been sent to her?
    Dr. Summerskill: Clearly, what my hon. Friend has described would be a criminal offence. If my hon. Friend knows any of the names and addresses concerned, I suggest that he tells the police.

    Polyurethane Foam
    Sir Bernard Brailleasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what progress is being made in research into the possible ill effects of fumes arising from burning polyurethane foam and other plastic materials; and when recommendations in regard to the safety of families in the home, industrial employees and firemen affected by such hazards may be expected.
    Dr. Summerskill: Good progress is being made with this research. An interim report on one of the projects has been published and the Home Office has issued advice to furniture manufacturers. Guidance has been, and will continue to be, given to the public, to industry and to the fire service whenever necessary.
    Sir B. Braine: Bearing in mind that accumulating evidence shows that the increasing use of this material represents a serious fire hazard because of the toxicity of the fumes produced, and that research has been going on for the last three years, is it not time that the public were told the results? If it is not possible to render this material safe, should it not be banned?
    Dr. Summerskill: The public were given an interim report in February of this year on the three-year programme of research that is being carried out. As a result of that report, furniture manufacturers have been asked not to use certain fabrics in association with plastic foam, and guidance has been given to the public and to industry.
    Mr. Gorst: Is any consideration being given in the Home Department and the Department of Prices and Consumer Protection about switching those aspects of consumer protection which deal with health and safety from the Home Department to the consumer Minister?
    Dr. Summerskill: Consideration is being given to that.

    Nationality (Legislation)
    Mr. McCrindleasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what changes he proposes in the laws relating to nationality.
    Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: My right hon. Friend has this subject very much in mind, but it is a complex one and he cannot make any pronouncement on it at present.
    Mr. McCrindle: While accepting that reply by the hon. Gentleman, may I ask whether, until such times as it is possible to introduce a comprehensive review of the law on nationality, the Government have plans to introduce any interim measures to try to clear up some of the anomalies between the regulations applying to EEC citizens and those applying to others? That would enable the law to be understood by many more people than I suspect understand it now.
    Mr. Lyon: One of the difficulties is that there has been a piecemeal approach over the years. We want to try to get a comprehensive review which takes into

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    account all these factors. I should therefore be against an interim piece of legislation, and I am looking forward to a much more comprehensive review.
    Mr. George Cunningham: Does my hon. Friend not think it odd, even by British standards, that 900 million people—that is, a quarter of the world's population—are entitled to vote in British elections so long as they are resident in this country on 10th October each year? Would not the restriction of the vote to citizens of the United Kingdom and colonies be a valuable interim measure to introduce before the law is changed?
    Mr. Lyon: As my hon. Friend said, they are entitled to vote so long as they are allowed to reside here. Difficulties arise from the fact that they are not always allowed to reside here, and we have to consider these difficulties in the comprehensive review.
    Mr. Hooleyasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the policy of Her Majesty's Government on granting permission to reside in the United Kingdom to the alien husband of a British wife, in a case where the United Kingdom is the wife's normal domicile.
    Mrs. Joyce Butlerasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will propose amending the Nationality Act to ensure that British women have the same rights as British men in regard to the residence of their foreign spouses in this country; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: I would refer my hon. Friends to the reply given to a Question by the hon. Member for Wallasey (Mrs. Chalker) on 21st March.—[Vol. 870, c. 136.]
    Mr. Hooley: I am obliged to my right hon. Friend for that reply. However, it does not convey much to me because I do not carry all these answers in my head. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that no obstacle whatever is placed in the way of the wife of a British husband coming to live in this country with him, whether she is an alien or not? Is he aware that considerable bitterness is caused to women by having to choose between living with their lawful wedded
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    husbands and living in the countries of their birth?
    Mr. Jenkins: This is a real problem, and there are cases of considerable hardship, which I shall try to ease as far as I can by sympathetic administrative decisions. I believe that there is, too, an element of sex discrimination which is difficult to defend.
    However, I have to consider the practical consequences as well as the problems themselves. I must tell the House, in order that the discussion which is building up may be properly conducted, that were I to admit husbands on the same basis as wives, in my view it would lead to a substantial and continuing new wave of male immigration, particularly from the Indian subcontinent. I cannot dissociate the problem completely from the cultural tradition—which do not seek to judge—of arranged marriages, but I must take into account the substantial effect upon the rate of immigration, anxious though I am to find an equitable solution.
    Mrs. Chalker: Will the right hon. Gentleman, at the same time as considering this matter, look into the situation regarding the nationality of the children born to British wives married to alien husbands? In later years, this situation causes extreme grief. Such cases are pouring in daily. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will consider the two matters together.
    Mr. Jenkins: I give the hon. Lady that assurance.
    Mrs. Butler: Can the Home Secretary amplify in any way the more liberal use of the criteria that he will apply in exercising his discretion on compassionate grounds in these cases? It is intolerable that this inhumane sex discrimination against women should continue while there is a means of ending it by administrative action.
    Mr. Jenkins: I do not think that the degree of discrimination can be wholly ended by administrative action. What is possible under administrative action is to determine the degree of hardship which is caused when a woman has to live abroad with her husband, and I shall look at the matter very carefully; but I have to balance the desirability of avoiding sex discrimination, accompanied by

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    the determination not to have racial discrimination, against the fact that there must be a limit to the amount of immigration that this country can take.
    Mr. Deedes: In view of the great pressure, which undoubtedly will be brought to bear on the right hon. Gentleman in this matter, will he make public the detail of the thinking which he has summarised to the House about the consequences for increased immigration to which he referred?
    Mr. Jenkins: I have endeavoured to put before the House some of the considerations which I am bound to have in my mind in dealing with this problem, which I regard as one of the most difficult problems that a Home Secretary has to face. If, as I imagine is the case, there is further discussion upon this issue in the House as well as elsewhere, I shall be most happy to aid that discussion by giving as much information as possible. However, in these spheres, the information cannot, by its nature, be wholly precise.
    Miss Boothroyd: Is my right hon. Friend aware that no mention whatsoever is made in the Green Paper of the particular difficulty that women experience in obtaining hire-purchase or rental agreements? This is a staggering omission. Indeed, only two weeks ago I was asked to produce a husband to sign a form so that I might rent a television set, and that is the type of discrimination—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. This is Question Time.
    Miss Boothroyd: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the concern that women feel, and will he quickly establish the equal opportunities campaign in order to ensure that all forms of discrimination are abolished as soon as possible?
    Mr. Jenkins: I fully understand the point raised by my hon. Friend. With respect, it is a little wide of the Question but it is not wide of the responsibilities of the Home Office, and I shall take fully into account what she has said.
    Mr. Lane: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the House welcomes the caution as well as the sympathy with which he is aproaching this extremely delicate and difficult problem, remembering that it was his right hon. Friend the
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    Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, when Home Secretary, who had to restrict the rights of wives because those rights were being abused as a way of getting round the immigration control several years ago? Will he keep carefully in mind the immigration aspects of this matter, so long as the system is under the intense pressure that it has been recently?
    Mr. Jenkins: I am, of course, aware of the history of this matter and, as I have already indicated to the House, I shall take into account all the relevant factors.

    Picketing
    Mr. Andrew Bennettasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will introduce legislation to repeal the Conspiracy and Protection of Property Act 1875.
    Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: I assume that my hon. Friend has in mind the provisions relating to picketing. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment indicated in the House on 22nd March, the Government have the law on picketing under review, in the context of the projected legislation to repeal the Industrial Relations Act.
    Mr. Bennett: I thank my hon. Friend for his reply. Will he also consider the possibility of freeing from prison the recent victims of this Act?
    Mr. Lyon: That is a much wider question, and one of which I should need to have notice. We take the view that there should be an amendment of the law to allow peaceful picketing, which permits vehicles to stop but does not include intimidation or violence. What was alleged—and proved to the satisfaction of the jury—in the Shrewsbury case was that intimidation and violence did occur. The matters are now under appeal, and therefore I cannot comment further upon them.
    Mr. Prior: We shall want to look carefully at any changes made to the law of picketing, but will the hon Gentleman confirm that the Home Office will remain responsible for the law on picketing, particularly as it has specific responsibilities for the rights and freedoms of individual citizens?
    Mr. Lyon: The Bill is in the general domain of the Secretary of State for Employment, but the picketing provisions are within the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and we are being consulted about these provisions.
    Mr. Prior: Will it remain the responsibility of the Home Department?
    Mr. Lyon: I think I can give the right hon. Gentleman the assurance that it will remain the responsibility of the Home Office to deal with this kind of criminal legislation, but it is part of the general remit for the amendment of the law relating to industrial relations and is therefore being considered by the Secretary of State for Employment.
    Mr. Lipton: Will my hon. Friend, at the same time, look at the Blemish of the Peace Act 1346, which was invoked recently in the course of an industrial dispute at St. Thomas Hospital?
    Mr. Lyon: I shall certainly look at it with some interest.
    Sir Derek Walker-Smith: Will the hon. Gentleman undertake to see that in amending the law of picketing there is no breach in the principle that people may not be stopped or detained against their will for the communication of information? Will he, as a Home Office Minister, and his right hon. Friend bear in mind that Ministers owe a duty to the whole community in this matter?
    Mr. Lyon: Of course, we are aware of that responsibility. We have to try to strike the right balance. In their proposals the Government agree with the TUC in saying that the wrong balance is struck in the present law as interpreted in the recent House of Lords case of Broome. The Government want to find a balance which is fair to all citizens affected by picketing.

    Animals (Experiments)
    Miss Fookesasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is satisfied that the arrangements for procuring animals for experimental purposes in laboratories exclude the possibility of using stolen animals.
    Dr. Summerskill: Receiving stolen animals is a criminal offence, and I have
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    no reason to suppose that laboratory authorities are unaware of that fact, if they buy animals for experimental use.
    Miss Fookes: May I draw the hon. Lady's attention to the representations made to me by the RSPCA? That society thinks that there is considerable cause for concern. May I send her the evidence on the subject?
    Dr. Summerskill: Certainly, I should like the evidence. I remind anybody involved in the stealing of these animals that the theft of domestic animals is an offence under the Theft Act 1968, carrying a maximum penalty of 10 years' imprisonment.

    Private Armed Forces
    Mr. Redmondasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what reports have reached him of armed and uniformed bodies undertaking paramilitary training in England or Wales; and what action has been taken.
    Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: The Chief Constable of Lancashire tells me that nine men have been charged with criminal offences and have been committed for trial.
    Mr. Redmond: Would not it have helped if the hon. Gentleman had paid a tribute to the Lancashire police for the efficient way in which they dealt with this matter once it came to light? In view of what has happened in Lancashire, is not it right that police forces throughout the country should be alerted to what happened in Lancashire and see that it does not happen anywhere else? Can it not be made impossible for us to have private armies training with live ammunition in this country, whether they call themselves "Loyalists", "UDA", "IRA", or whatever?
    Mr. Lyon: I think that the police did the job which they always do, and they did it efficiently and well. If the hon. Gentleman had waited a little before expressing concern about the matter, he would have seen that the police do carry out their job in cases of this kind.

    Urban Deprivation
    Mr. Laneasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will make a statement on his plans for tackling urban deprivation.
    Mr. Alexander W. Lyon: My right hon. Friend is now considering how he can most usefully develop the work of the urban deprivation unit, in conjunction with the urban programme and the community development projects.
    Mr. Lane: We are glad that the Government have decided to leave this coordinating responsibility with the Home Secretary. Will the Government do their utmost, on the basis of the studies already made by that unit, to get new action projects under way in some of our inner city areas within the next few months?
    Mr. Lyon: We are anxious to make progress in this area as quickly as resources and the time necessary for careful preparation allow.

    Taxi Trade (Maxwell Stamp Report)
    Mr. Finsbergasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has now completed his consultation on the Maxwell Stamp Report on the taxi trade; and if he will make a statement.
    Dr. Summerskill: During the last three years consultations have been proceeding at official level. My right hon. Friend intends now to review the progress made and to consider how best to bring matters to a conclusion.
    Mr. Finsberg: Does the hon. Lady accept that that is as unsatisfactory an answer as I had from her predecessor, my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Cambridge (Mr. Lane)? Does she not believe that three years' official consultation while the growing scandal of mini-cabs goes on is far too long? Will the hon. Lady please try to produce a White Paper during the time that she may occupy her office over the next 12 months?
    Dr. Summerskill: I remind the hon. Gentleman that the Maxwell Stamp Report was with the Conservative Government for three years. We have had the report for just over three weeks, and we shall act on it urgently.
    Mr. Arnold Shaw: Is my hon. Friend aware that in the last Labour administration the Government did something in the matter of the London taxi cabs? Is she aware that the Maxwell Stamp
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    Committee was set up, but in the interim of three and a half years nothing has been done?
    Dr. Summerskill: I can only deplore the limited progress which has been made in the last three years and assure hon. Members that we are making every possible speed with preparing conclusions on the report.
    Mr. Finsberg: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Referendum
    Mr. Hayhoeasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what contingency arrangements he is making for the holding of a referendum in the United Kingdom.
    Dr. Summerskill: No elaborate preparations would be required. The arrangements could be made only in the light of the actual circumstances.
    Mr. Hayhoe: It is of significance that the Home Secretary has not answered this Question. As the Prime Minister has indicated that it is almost certain that there will be a referendum on the Common Market, perhaps the hon. Lady will find out from her right hon. Friend whether it is equally almost certain that the Home Secretary will resign again on this issue.
    Dr. Summerskill: As the hon. Gentleman knows, in our election manifesto we are committed, following renegotiation of the terms of entry into the Common Market, to consult the British people, by either a General Election or a referendum.
    Mr. William Hamilton: Will my hon. Friend give an assurance that if there should be a referendum on this matter she will consult me as to the terms of the questions to be put?

    Prison Staff (Hostages)
    Mr. Stephen Rossasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will take steps to protect prison officers and civilians employed in the prison service from the growing practice of being used as hostages by the more violent inmates of prisons.
    Dr. Summerskill: I am not sure what specific measures the hon. Member has in mind beyond the security arrangements applied in all establishments for the protection of staff against possible assault from prisoners. My right hon. Friend believes that existing powers under the prison rules are adequate to deal with such hostage incidents as are not made the subject of criminal proceedings.
    Mr. Ross: Does the hon. Lady accept that this is a matter of considerable concern in my constituency, where there are no fewer than three prisons and increasing incidents of this type and there is urgent need to amend the existing rule book to ensure, among other things, that prisoners taking such action are dealt with by outside courts?
    Dr. Summerskill: The two main disciplinary offences for which a prisoner who takes a member of staff hostage would be most likely to be charged are committing an assault and offending against good order and discipline.

    Public Opinion Polls
    Mr. Huntasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will seek powers to prohibit the publication of all public opinion polls from the date of Parliament's dissolution until after polling day in all General Elections.
    Mr. Roy Jenkins: This matter was considered in 1967 by Mr. Speaker's Conference, which recommended by a majority that the results of public opinion polls should not be published for a period of 72 hours before the close of the poll. This recommendation was not endorsed by Parliament, and I am not at present persuaded that any further action is necessary or desirable.
    Mr. Hunt: Does the right hon. Gentleman think that this kind of political fortune telling, which is about as accurate as the palmist on the pier, tends to distract people's attention from the really important issues of an election? Is it asking too much that for just three blissful weeks we and the country should be spared the peddling of these pointless predictions?
    Mr. Jenkins: That was not the view that the House took on previous occasions before both the 1970 and the 1974
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    elections. I would judge, on the whole, that if the results of those elections had any effect it would have been to make the public rather more sceptical about public opinion polls. But I think that scepticism is a quality that individuals can exercise for themselves, and I doubt whether any prohibition that might lead to a black market passage of information if some people heard of what was in a suppressed poll would really be beneficial.

    POPULATION POLICY
    Mr. Beithasked the Prime Minister to which Minister he has assigned responsibility for population policy.
    The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): I would refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave on 21st March to my hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, North-East (Mrs. Short).—[Vol. 870, c. 152.]
    Mr. Beith: Will the Prime Minister indicate whether the noble Lord to whom he referred in that reply has sufficient time and sufficient staff at his disposal to carry out the work required, particularly now that the assumptions about economic growth, on which the Population Panel based its report, are seen to be in question?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, I think that the noble Lord has sufficient time and sufficient staff to do his job.
    Sir David Renton: Will the right hon. Gentleman give us an assurance that the Government, like their predecessors, accept the recommendations of the Ross Panel?
    The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir, but I think that the attitude of the House on all these matters will be that the greatest happiness will be realised if those families who want to have children are able to have them and those who do not want to are able not to have them.

    EUROPEAN FREE TRADE AREA
    Mr. Moateasked the Prime Minister if he will seek to meet the Heads of Government of the present members of

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    the European Free Trade Area as soon as possible.
    The Prime Minister: I have at present no plans to do so, Sir.
    Mr. Moate: Does the Prime Minister agree that the European Free Trade Area provided for Britain a most valuable association of sovereign States, and that if he were able to establish similar arrangements for the whole of Western Europe, with strong overseas links, that policy would be likely to have the full-hearted consent of Parliament and the people?
    The Prime Minister: When EFTA was set up it had the full support of all parties in the House and it did a valuable job in that situation. What I think the hon. Member is suggesting is something that has been tried by successive Governments, going back to Plan G, proposed by the right hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Mr. Maudling). Although this has raised hopes that something on those lines could be worked out, it has never materialised.
    Mr. Milne: Is the Prime Minister aware that the agreements made with the EFTA countries gave advantages to those countries at least comparable with those extracted from us on membership of the EEC? Will he look at the replies which his right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary gave yesterday on the question of renegotiation? If renegotiation does not come to the point that the Government want, will we look at the question of withdrawal?
    The Prime Minister: I have nothing to add to what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs said in the debate on foreign affairs on Tuesday of last week, when he set out once again the position of the Labour Party and the Government.
    Mr. Heath: Will the Prime Minister also agree that unless Britain had become a member of the European Community, the other EFTA countries which did not become full members would never have been able to get the arrangements that they obtained? If Denmark, Ireland and Britain had not become full members, Norway would never have been able to get the arrangements she has.
    The Prime Minister: I think that Norway, and to some extent Sweden, un-
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    doubtedly benefited from some of the consequential provisions arising out of the fact that EFTA had virtually disappeared as a result of the accession of other members to the EEC. But, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, the difference between the two Front Benches on this matter relates to the terms on which entry was secured.

    Central Policy Review Staff
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyneasked the Prime Minister what are his plans for the future of the Central Policy Review Staff.
    The Prime Minister: The Central Policy Review Staff will continue to carry out the same functions for Ministers as under the previous administration and Lord Rothschild will remain as the head of the unit.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Will the right hon. Gentleman explain what is to be the precise division of responsibility between the "Think Tank", on the one hand, and Dr. Donoughue and the new political Mafia on the other? Will he also reassure the House that the "Think Tank", for its part, will be encouraged under this administration, as it was under the last, from time to time to point out to the Government where they have not diverged from their election manifesto but would be well advised to do so?
    The Prime Minister: I join the hon. Gentleman in his implied tribute to the "Think Tank". I am satisfied that it clearly did a remarkably successful job for the previous Government. [Laughter.] Quite seriously, I think that its work is of a high order and of equal value to the present Government.
    The policy unit referred to by the hon. Gentleman is working in close liaison with the "Think Tank", but its duties are entirely different.

    CONFEDERATION OF BRITISH INDUSTRY
    Mr. Redmondasked the Prime Minister what plans he has for future discussions with the Confederation of British Industry on the subjects of the economy and industrial relations.
    The Prime Minister: I shall be seeing it later this afternoon, Sir.
    Mr. Redmond: May I press a point on the right hon. Gentleman that I pressed from the other side of the House in the last Parliament? With all respect to the CBI, how can it be representative of the whole of British industry, particularly of small firms, the majority of which are not members? Would not the right hon. Gentleman get a much better picture of the small firms, the grass roots of industry, particularly in the regions, by consulting the chambers of commerce? If he were to talk to the chambers of commerce now, would he not learn how the small firms have been clobbered by the Budget and how they are worried about their cash flow?
    The Prime Minister: I do not entirely agree that the CBI is incapable of representing small firms. At its quarterly meetings a large number of small firms appear and are very vocal. But I agree that there are special problems for small businesses. They were clobbered worst of all by the three-day week, as I happened to mention in the debate on the Gracious Speech. We are all aware of the serious liquidity problems that they are facing as a result not only of the three-day week, but of the need now to build up stocks and components.
    As regards the chambers of commerce, with which I have had close relations for a quarter of a century, I agree that they have a great deal to say on behalf of small, medium and large firms, and we shall listen to them.
    Mr. Ashley: Does the Prime Minister agree that the CBI's lukewarm attitude to the Government's proposals, in stark contrast to its attitude towards the previous administration, will not discourage the Government from carrying those proposals through?
    The Prime Minister: I have said that I shall be meeting the CBI this afternoon and we shall then be able to hear directly its views on these matters.
    Mr. Heath: The Prime Minister has mentioned the question of liquidity. How will he explain to the CBI the need for the measure in the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Budget which will further reduce the liquidity of British industry by between £1,000 million and £1,200 million in the year?
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    Secondly, when the right hon. Gentleman meets the CBI, will he give it the facts about the impact on the retail price index for the coming year—facts which have so far not been given by either the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Paymaster-General? Last night, the Paymaster-General said that the rent freeze would reduce the index by ¾ per cent. Unless there is a reduction in rents, it cannot possibly reduce the retail price index. The freeze, therefore, will not provide an offsetting ¾ per cent. So far as fond subsidies are concerned, the only reduction is 1p on milk, which is 0·4 on the retail price index.
    Therefore, the total consequence of the Chancellor's Budget is an increase in the RPI in the course of this year of between 3 per cent. and 4 per cent., with all the consequences on threshold agreements.
    The Prime Minister: I shall be very interested to study the figures just given by the right hon. Gentleman in his speech, and I have no doubt that my right hon. and hon. Friends who will be taking part in the debate will be happy to base their replies on the information that he has just given the House.
    With regard to the answer that I shall give to the CBI, I shall see first the precise nature of its questions on these matters. The CBI is conscious that both small and large firms are facing a severe liquidity problem, caused by the right hon. Gentleman's induced three-day week.
    Mr. Heath: I strongly repudiate what the Prime Minister has said. When the National Union of Mineworkers introduces an overtime ban and then challenges the country with a strike, the loss is its responsibility.
    The Prime Minister: May I, in the friendliest way, advise the right hon. Gentleman not to keep on fighting the General Election and repeating the arguments he used on that occasion? In an earlier question he referred to my right hon. Friends having concealed figures from the House. The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that one of the central features of the Budget Statement was the very large increases required in the prices of public industries, which followed the policy enunciated by the then Chancellor last December and the figures that the right hon. Gentleman the then Prime

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    Minister systematically concealed from the electorate throughout the General Election.

    ISRAEL (PRIME MINISTER)
    Mr. David Watkinsasked the Prime Minister whether he has any plans to meet the Prime Minister of Israel.
    The Prime Minister: I have no plans to meet Mrs. Meir at present, Sir.
    Mr. Watkins: Will my right hon. Friend nevertheless seek at the earliest possible opportunity to impress upon the Prime Minister of Israel that an essential concomitant of a permanent peace in the Middle East is what was described in last week's debate by the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary as a personality for the Palestinian people?
    The Prime Minister: The House well knows the position that the Labour Opposition and I took on the Middle East. But in every speech I have made in this country and in Israel I have stressed the very great importance and urgency of the solution of the Palestinian problem.
    Mr. Finsberg: When the Prime Minister sees Mrs. Meir, will he tell her how deeply a large number of people in this country, both Jewish and non-Jewish, resent his Government's decision to approve the appointment of the new Egyptian ambassador, in view of his known past Fascist connections?
    The Prime Minister: I know the strong feeling in different parts of the House and the country. Agreement was given some time ago, before the present Government came to office. This is a matter that we have considered, but after the exchanges we have had, I believe that we cannot go back on the decision taken by the right hon. Gentleman.

    MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the responsibilities of Lord Balogh as Minister of State, Department of Energy, within the Government.
    The Prime Minister: The Minister of State in the Department of Energy will act as the Secretary of State's deputy and deal with all matters concerning the Department in the House of Lords. He will also take a particular interest in that part of the Department of Energy which is concerned with the development of a strategic approach to energy problems.
    Mr. Hamilton: Is Lord Balogh there primarily in an advisory capacity, or has he any executive powers? What steps does my right hon. Friend think are desirable to transfer a much greater part of the decision-making to Scotland than has hitherto been acceptable?
    The Prime Minister: My noble Friend is serving as a Minister of State and not in an advisory capacity. I think it is fair to say that he was very critical of previous Governments, of both parties, on the matter of North Sea gas and oil. My own view is that he was right when he criticised both those Governments—our own and the Conservative Government which followed. So far as Scottish responsibility is concerned, I gave a pledge during the election that there would be an elected Minister from a Scottish constituency in charge of these things, and two elected Members from Scotland are in the Energy Department.
    Mr. Teddy Taylor: Would it not remove a lot of uncertainty about energy and oil if the Prime Minister could arrange for Lord Balogh—or any other energy Minister—to say clearly whether the Government have dropped their plans to nationalise North Sea oil?
    The Prime Minister: I set out the position clearly and at some length during the debate on the Gracious Speech—some hon. Members thought I went on for too long on that subject—and we are now formulating our policy. The proposals that I made in Edinburgh and Glasgow on these matters are forming part of it.

    WASTE PRODUCTS (RECYCLING)
    Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Prime Minister whether he is satisfied that there is adequate co-ordination between the Department of Industry and the Department of the Environment in arranging for the recycling of products.
    The Prime Minister: There is already close co-operation between Departments, but discussions are taking place to ensure the fullest co-ordination in this increasingly important field.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Is the Prime Minister aware that I am glad that he calls it "increasingly important", but does he know that people who return bottles or empties, even when an appeal is made for their return, are often rebuffed? Is there not a case for a coordinated campaign between central and local government and private enterprise?
    The Prime Minister: I shall consider that. Certainly, there has been a great problem. Even before the difficulties of the last few months, there was a growing shortage of milk bottles and other containers. I shall consider what the hon. Gentleman has suggested.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Is the Prime Minister aware that there is strong concern about this subject in the country generally, and that many large companies—for instance, Cadbury-Schweppes—are refusing to accept returned containers? Would it not be an excellent idea to put pressure on the CBI to ensure its co-operation in getting these companies to do their duty in this respect?
    The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his suggestion. I shall see that it is brought to the attention of my right hon. Friends concerned. But both my right hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Stonehouse) and the hon. Member for Epping Forest (Mr. Biggs-Davison) will be aware of the great improvements in recycling techniques and methods over the past few years. None is greater, I think, than the saving of newsprint, brought about as a result of the de-inking process developed by a public corporation—the National Research Development Corporation.
    Dr. Winstanley: Does not the Prime Minister agree that it is regrettable that many local authorities will not collect waste paper separately, even when householders bother to separate it? Surely this is a matter about which he himself could do something.
    The Prime Minister: I shall ensure that the point raised by the hon. Gentle-
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    man is also brought to the attention of my right hon. Friends. Certainly the activity by local authorities in the collection of waste paper varies greatly from area to area, but with the shortage of paper, not only for newsprint but for packaging and other purposes, this matter is very urgent.

    QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
    Mr. Fowler: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. We reached No. 21 in Oral Questions to the Home Secretary. Question No. 22, standing in my name, concerns complaints against the police. Since the publication of a Government report on this subject is imminent—indeed, may take place today—may I ask whether the Home Secretary has made application to answer Question No. 22 orally?
    Mr. Speaker: The answer is, "No".

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Heath: May I ask the Leader of the House to state the business of the House for next week?
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Edward Short): The business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY 1st April—Conclusion of the debate on the Budget Statement.
Motion on the Ministry of Posts and Telecommunications (Dissolution) Order.
TUESDAY 2nd April—Supply (2nd Allotted Day): There will be a debate on Offshore Oil, which will arise on a motion for the Adjournment of the House.
At seven o'clock, the Chairman of Ways and Means has named opposed Private Business for consideration.
WEDNESDAY 3rd April—Second Reading of the Health and Safety at Work, etc. Bill.
Motion on the Housing Corporation Advances (Increase of Limit) Order.
THURSDAY 4th April—Debate on Northern Ireland Affairs, which will arise on a motion for the Adjournment of the House.

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FRIDAY 5th April—Private Members' motions.
MONDAY 8th April—Until seven o'clock, consideration of Private Members' motions.
At seven o'clock, opposed Private Business has been named for consideration.
The House will wish to know that, subject to the progress of business, it will be proposed that we should rise for the Easter Adjournment on Thursday 11th April, until Monday 29th April.
Mr. Heath: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his statement and for the information he has given about the Easter Recess. We can only draw the conclusion that the Government have not a clue as to what to do with the time available to them and therefore see no point in having Parliament sitting in the usual way.
First, can the right hon. Gentleman tell us when the Defence White Paper will be published and when the Secretary of State for Defence will make a statement?
Secondly, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the Secretary of State for the Environment will be making a statement about his negotiations with the building societies on the mortgage rate?
Thirdly, in view of the statement by the British Aircraft Corporation that figures given by the Secretary of State for Industry on the costs of cancelling Concorde are completely misleading, will the right hon. Gentleman ask the Secretary of State to come back to the House and make a real statement about the consequences?
Will the right hon. Gentleman also tell us when either he or the Prime Minister will be making a statement about their undertaking to the Clay Cross councillors?
Lastly, when will the Chancellor of the Exchequer come back to the House and give the real facts about the implications of his Budget on the retail price index?
Mr. Short: I said last week that there would be a Defence White Paper. It is a long and detailed survey. I cannot say when the White Paper will be published.
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Secondly, I understand that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment issued a short statement this morning after his discussions with the building societies. A study is going on and it is hoped to complete it before Easter. I think that the appropriate time for a statement is at the conclusion of the study, but I will convey to my right hon. Friend what the right hon. Gentleman said.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry will be making a statement about Concorde in due course, but not next week.
The right hon. Gentleman asked about Clay Cross. We are considering this matter, but we have a great many matters to consider. When we entered Whitehall three weeks ago we found not just one skeleton in the cupboard but skeletons in every cupboard, left behind by our predecessors. We found skeletons not only in the cupboards but sitting on tables, shelves and the tops of cupboards and hanging from the lamps. When we have found a way through all the skeletons we shall get to Clay Cross.
Mr. Heath: The right hon. Gentleman misunderstands the position. The Clay Cross skeleton is in his own cupboard. What the House would like to know is when he proposes to get rid of it in one way or another.
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he is forthcoming about the nature of statements but is not precise at any time as to when they will be made? Will he endeavour in future to be rather more precise about when members of the Government will make statements?
Mr. Short: The right hon. Gentleman should stop trying to lecture us.
Sir G. de Freitas: When shall we have the chance to debate the setting up of a European Communities Committee on the lines recommended unanimously by the all-party Foster report?
Mr. Short: As I tried to say in the speech which I was not allowed to make the other night, I hope that we can agree to set up the Committee without debate. I shall be making a statement very shortly about the rest of the Foster report.
Mr. Peyton: Following the election there is a certain amount of uncertainty

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about the Government's intentions on defence policy, and we are all quite confident that the right hon. Gentleman will want to dispel it as soon as possible. When can we expect the Defence White Paper and a debate upon it?
Mr. Short: I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman was not listening to the reply I gave to the Leader of the Opposition. I said that there would be a White Paper in due course but that I could not say when. It will not be for some weeks.
Mr. Kerr: Has my right hon. Friend's attention been drawn to Early Day Motion No. 26 on the subject of banning arms for Fascist Chile? Is he prepared to give an early opportunity to debate the matter in the House?
[That this House, profoundly opposed to the supply of arms and military equipment to military dictatorship in Chile, urges Her Majesty's Government not to proceed with the proposed delivery of naval vessels.]
Mr. Short: Not next week.
Mr. Emery: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider fully the question of the time scale of a statement on mortgages? It seems from his reply to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition that a statement might not be made until the conclusion of the Government's consideration of the matter. Meetings have been held today and there has been no statement, other than to the Press. I believe that the House would wish to know what action the Government are taking on mortgages and on keeping down mortgage rates, since they are thinking of spending money in so many other ways.
Mr. Short: I never cease to be astounded by hon. Members opposite. The mortgage situation is yet another of our legacies from the previous Government and is one of the most intricate. I said that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment met the building societies this morning. He made a very brief statement afterwards to the Press. But there was nothing very much at that stage that he could say to the Press. However, if it is the general wish of the Opposition that there should be a
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statement, I will communicate that to my right hon. Friend, but I thought the most sensible thing would be to have a statement when the study referred to this morning is completed.
Mr. Palmer: When will a date be fixed for the promised debate on the report of the Select Committee on Science and Technology on nuclear reactor choices?
Mr. Short: I cannot give my hon. Friend a date, but there will not be time before Easter.
Mr. Douglas Henderson: I have a question which, unlike some others, may relate to the business of next week. It concerns the motion on today's Order Paper to establish a Select Committee on Services, It may be that we shall find it necessary to object to this motion tonight since there has been no consultation with our party on the composition and terms of reference of the Committee and, according to the terms of the motion, we are not to be represented on it. If, therefore, we object to the motion tonight, will time be made available for discussion of this very important matter in next week's business?
Mr. Short: I promised during business questions last week that there would be a statement about this on the Order Paper today and I believe that there is. If the hon. Gentleman would like to come and discuss this with me afterwards, I should be pleased to talk to him about it.
Mr. Tuck: Now that the eagerly awaited Sharp Report has been published, with its recomendations relating to disabled drivers, can my right hon. Friend promise us that after Easter there will be an early debate upon the report so that we may go ahead in implementing its recommendations?
Mr. Short: This is a very thorough report. There will be no debate before Easter but I will pass on my hon. Friend's comments to my right hon. Friend responsible for this matter.
Mr. William Clark: In view of the minority position of the Government, will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the Finance Bill will be taken on the Floor of the House? Does he agree that it would be regrettable if a measure of this magnitude, which does so much harm to so many people, were to be

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tucked away in a Committee with a minority Government trying to get it through?
Mr. Short: The country has to be governed. The practice in the past has been that part of the Finance Bill is taken on the Floor of the House and part of it in Committee. We shall be discussing this through the usual channels.
Mr. Arthur Lewis: In the course of his discussions through the usual channels about the business for next week, may I ask whether my right hon. Friend has been informed officially or unofficially that the Opposition are to run away from the vote on the Budget on Monday?
Mr. Short: I have no knowledge of that at all. All I know is that I have announced the business for next week.
Mr. Farr: While I recognise that the House and country may be in for a period of prolonged non-government or hesitant government, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is fully aware of how important it is to get an early decision on our next programme of nuclear reactors, bearing in mind the report of the Committee referred to by the hon Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Palmer)? Is he also aware how important it is for British technology and British industry that we should use the reactors which we have developed?
Mr. Short: I have already answered a question dealing with the latter point and I have nothing further to add. To take up the hon. Member's first comment, what the country needs is firm and decisive Government. We hope to have the co-operation of the parties opposite in giving the country just that.
Mr. George Cunningham: Will my right hon. Friend answer a question dealing with the roster for answering Questions? Is he aware that I want to put a Question or two to the Second Church Estates Commissioner, who continues to be kept off the roster by the machinations of the two Front Benches of a year ago? Can he assure me that the Second Church Estates Commissioner will go back on the roster so that I may draw attention to the fact that the Anglican clergy are up to their dog collars in property speculation?
Mr. Short: I am sure that there have been no machinations between the two Front Benches, either now or during the time of the previous Government, designed to take the Second Church Estates Commissioner off the roster. I will try in some way to satisfy my hon. Friend's burning desire to question the Second Church Estates Commissioner.
Mr. Kershaw: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that it will be extremely unsatisfactory if the House does not have a proper opportunity to debate the Concorde issue before decisions are taken? Will he bear in mind that in Bristol and Gloucestershire these matters are of great importance and that some people in those areas remember what the previous Labour Government did to TSR2—and how they subsequently regretted it?
Mr. Short: This is yet another part of the intricate and tragic legacy left to us by the previous Government. We shall be making a statement in due course.
Mr. Ashley: Is the Leader of the House aware of the deep concern felt throughout the BBC about the proposed cuts in expenditure on the overseas services? Is he further aware that if these cuts are carried through they will be gravely damaging to one of Britain's most priceless assets? Will he arrange for a debate on this issue next week?
Mr. Short: I cannot arrange for a debate on this issue next week or even before Easter. I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary will read my hon. Friend's question and bear it in mind.
Mr. Kenneth Clarke: Will the right hon. Gentleman be setting down a motion next week to establish a new delegation from this House to the European Parliament? Does he not agree, as some of his hon. Friends clearly agreed in the Foreign Affairs debate last week, that as the so-called renegotiation is clearly taking place within the rules, framework and institutions of the present Cornmunity, the interests of the British people could best be served by having full representation in Strasbourg from all parties in the House?
Mr. Short: They are certainly not "so-called renegotiations", as the hon. Gentleman will see when he reads the White

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Paper following the statement of the Foreign Secretary to the Council of Ministers next week. I have answered a question on this. My view is that, while these renegotiations are going on, we should take no further action.
Mr. Skinner: When my right hon. Friend—
Mr. Adley: Too long.
Mr. Skinner: —gets round to discussing the Clay Cross situation—[HON. MEMBERS: "Declare an interest."]—with his colleagues—[An HON. MEMBER: "And brothers."]—will he bear in mind that the auditor who conducted this inquiry said in his official report that, although money was lost, over the six-week period the Clay Cross Council saved the taxpayer and ratepayer combined the sum of £2,015, which is a total of more than £25,000 at present? Will he also bear in mind that, far from being a skeleton in anyone's cupboard, this is a lusty infant that was conceived out of the confrontation provoked by the Leader of the Opposition when he was Prime Minister? Does my right hon. Friend agree that if the then Government had sent in a housing commissioner at the time they sent them in Wales to Merthyr Tydfil and Bedwas this situation would not have arisen?
Mr. Short: As I said, this is one of the long queue of creaking skeletons left behind by the Tory Government—namely, defence, Concorde, nationalised industries and so on. We shall certainly get round to it and we shall bear in mind what my hon. Friend said as well as the other relevant considerations.
Mr. Prior: Would the right hon. Gentleman care to say whether he regards his hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) as a legacy or a skeleton?
Mr. Short: I regard my hon. Friend as an extremely valuable Member of this House who has certainly enlivened our proceedings—and they need it.
Mr. Kershaw: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it to be the practice during business question time in future that the merits of questions may be argued in the way the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) has done, or is it your intention
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to confine our questions to the business for next week?
Mr. Speaker: I said last week that I would cut business questions very short because of other business which was to follow but that I would allow rather more latitude this week. Certainly I do not want the merits of questions to be argued during Business Question Time.
Mr. Faulds: Since I, too, wish to put questions to the Second Church Estates Commissioner, whether he is on or off the roster, and since the Table Office last night thought that the hon. Member for Chelsea (Sir M. Worsley) still had the job, may I ask when we may expect an announcement about the appointment of the Second Church Estates Commissioner?
Mr. Shore: Not next week.
Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Will the right hon. Gentleman examine the position of the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster on the Question roster? Does he recall that in the previous Tory and Labour administrations the Chancellor was a member of another substantive Department and answered Questions with that Department? Is he aware that now, although the Chancellor of the Duchy has responsibilities covering such things as overseas fund-raising and keeping a sceptical eye on the activities of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the only Questions we can put to him are those dealing with constables in Lancaster?
Mr. Short: Constables in Lancaster are very important. The hon. Gentleman knows that the initiative in respect of the roster is largely in the hands of the Opposition. We are discussing, through the usual channels, the roster after Easter.
Mr. McNamara: Will my right hon. Friend say what Church he is talking about—those who believe or those who do not believe? But on more important maters, in talking of "skeletons in cupboards", among them are the 8 per cent. to 11 per cent. rise in mortgage interest rate inherited from the Conservative Government, the provisions of the Housing Finance Act, and the tremendous increase in rates. When may we expect a statement from the Secretary of State for the Environment on his discussions with the building societies and on positive

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steps to help the owner-occupier, since help is drastically needed?
Mr. Short: I do not think I can add anything to what I have already said on this matter. If it is the general wish of the House, I am sure that my right hon. Friend will be willing to make an interim statement, but I believe that it would be more useful to the House if we delayed this until the end of the study, which I understand will be before Easter.
Mr. Speaker: I have already indicated that I shall not allow as much latitude on future occasions in regard to questions on business. I must point out that it makes my task more difficult when hon. Members repeat questions which have already been asked and answered.
Mr. Heath: Perhaps I should say to the Leader of the House that, as he said that the initiative in respect of the roster is with the Opposition, we shall take full advantage of the situation.
Mr. Cormack: Bearing in mind the views of the Leader of the House expressed on an earlier occasion, would it not be appropriate for him personally to make a statement on Clay Cross—and would not Monday 1st April be the appropriate day on which to make it?
Hon. Members: Answer!
Mr. Goodhart: Since it was made plain during yesterday's Question Time that our overseas aid will be administered in a more politically-contentious manner than has been customary in the recent past, may we have an early debate on the size and distribution of our overseas aid programme?
Mr. Short: Without accepting the hon. Gentleman's premise, I can only answer by saying, "Not next week".
Mr. Lawson: Is my right hon. Friend aware of the repeated assurances given by the Conservative Government that they would set up a Select Committee on Scottish affairs? Since that Select Committee has not yet been set up, will my right hon. Friend now undertake to set it up very quickly?
Mr. Short: I am prepared to look at that matter and to discuss it with my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell
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and Wishaw (Mr. Lawson) if he cares to come to talk to me about it.
Mr. Peter Rees: Since the country's concern about defence skeletons in the right hon. Gentleman's cupboard will not be allayed by answers given earlier today, will the right hon. Gentleman be more precise about the Defence White Paper? Will it be produced before the Summer Recess?
Mr. Short: I have already answered that question three times today. I said that there will be a White Paper, and that is quite specific. A major review is taking place. I cannot say when it will be published, but it will not be for some weeks.
Mr. Marten: On which day next week will the Foreign Secretary make a statement on the meetings of the Council of Ministers?
Mr. Short: I do not know on which day it will be, but my right hon. Friend's speech will be published as a White Paper.
Mr. Hastings: Following what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Mr. Kershaw) about Concorde, and in view of the fact that the figures advanced by the Government are seen to be debatable, to say the least, and will be increasingly challenged, why is it that the Leader of the House cannot give an absolute assurance that there will be a debate before any decision is taken?
Mr. Short: I do not in any way accept what the hon. Gentleman said. What I have said is that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry will eventually make a statement on Concorde when he has concluded his discussions.
Mr. Faulds: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Since some of the matters I wish to raise with the Second Church Estates Commissioner are in my view fairly urgent, will you give me some guidance pending his appointment? To whom shall I pose my Questions? Will it be in order to place them on the Prime Minister's list of Questions?
Mr. Speaker: I shall consider the point put to me by the hon. Gentleman. I will communicate with him.

ORDERS OF THE DAY
  WAYS AND MEANS
  Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [26th March],
  WAYS AND MEANS

    AMENDMENT OF THE LAW
    Motion made, and Question proposed.
    That it is expedient to amend the law with respect to the National Debt and the public revenue and to make further provision in connection with finance; but this Resolution does not extend to the making of amendment with respect to value added tax so as to provide—

    (a) for zero-rating or exempting any supply;

    (b) for refunding any amount of tax;

    (c) for varying the rate of that tax otherwise than in relation to all supplies and importations; or

    (d) for any relief other than relief applicable to goods of whatever description or services of whatever description.

BUDGET RESOLUTIONS AND ECONOMIC SITUATION
Question again proposed.
Mr. Speaker: Before I call the right hon. Lady, may I make an appeal to the House for shorter speeches? Yesterday one back bencher spoke for 28 minutes and two others each spoke for over 20 minutes. This is unfair to other hon. Members.
3.55 p.m.
The Secretary of State for Social Services (Mrs. Barbara Castle): Seldom can anyone in my job have had a happier report to make to the House after a starting period of three weeks. I hope this afternoon that the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) will be a little more enthusiastic in his appreciation of it than he was yesterday. I gather that the right hon. Member for Carshalton (Mr. Carr) last night assured the country that if he had not introduced food subsidies he could have provided large pension increases. I thought that the word "could" was interesting. The right hon. Gentleman did not say "would". I do not think that it would have been a question of "would" if a Conservative Government had been returned, in view of the churlish
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remarks about pensions and other uprating benefits made by the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition in the debate on the Queen's Speech.
I do not make these remarks in any mood of complacency. I think that I know as well as anybody what serious gaps there still are, even after this uprating, in our social provision for the troubled, deserted, the chronically sick, the incapacitated and disabled, the lonely and the poor; but I refuse to underestimate the size of our achievement in our first three weeks—a shift of £1,250 million of resources to the underprivileged at a stroke.
We are all paying for this shift, and I hope that we are proud to pay for it. I hope that none of us will run away from the implications in terms of paying for it in supporting the increase that we have announced. Let me remind the House of what we shall be paying for. There will be an increase of 29 per cent. in long-term benefits—the highest ever in the history of the national insurance scheme—and an increase in short-term benefits of 17 per cent., twice the increase of the Conservative uprating last year. There will be some immediate relief to the disabled, pending the autumn review which I am pledged to make to the House. In addition to the large number of elderly disabled and old-age pensioners on supplementary benefits, there are 1½ million chronically sick and disabled people in receipt of Social Security benefits of one kind or another, who will receive about £160 million from the uprating. We have also included a welcome relaxation of the earnings rule, and, not least, we have announced our intention that any future rises in pensions will be linked to wage increases—an important change in our pensions policy that has been warmly welcomed by Age Concern. All this has been done within 10 months of the last uprating.
It is appropriate for me to remind the House that Section 39 of the 1973 Social Security Act, carried through in the last year of the Conservative Government, merely requires the Secretary of State to have regard to price increases since the last review. Ours is a pension increase of 29 per cent., and we knew in February of this year—the latest figure available—that prices had risen since last October by 5·2 per cent. Incidentally,

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the 1973 Social Security Act laid down in Section 39 that the uprating of benefits by order could take effect only between 16th November and 30th November; that is, more than 12 months after the previous uprating. So it is a little odd now for the Opposition to claim that they were always in favour of six-monthly reviews. They introduced a very important piece of social security legislation last year and very carefully omitted to include six-monthly reviews.
In view of this achievement of ours, it is no wonder that Joe Rogaly said in the Financial Times:
"It must be acknowledged that there really has been a shift of resources in favour of the old."
He might have added:
"and in favour of widows, invalidity pensioners and the chronically sick."
The shift has been made quite deliberately by kindness aforethought in order to set Britain on a new course towards a just and fair society as part of our move towards a major redistribution of wealth and income, as my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer said on Tuesday in his remarkable Budget speech.
It has also been done with maximum speed. This year there will be a mere 17 weeks between the date of the announcement and the actual uprating, compared with a period last year of 29 weeks. I mention that because it is important to point out that it means three things. First, the speed of this uprating means an enormous burden on the staff of my Department, and I want publicly to recognise this. It so happens that when successive Governments introduce involved upratings the Government get the glory and my staff gets the work.
The 70,000 social security staff, on whom Parliament has imposed the duty of determining objectively whether an individual before them is eligible for benefits, are in the front line. They are doing a complex and difficult job, whether at the counter or at the desk, trying to carry out the wishes of Parliament. I want to be the first to recognise that the increases which we are proposing in the time span we are proposing are putting a very great burden on them.
I know that there are criticisms in the House very often about the staff of the DHSS. I want to make the administration of social services as sensitive,
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humane, and flexible as possible. For that reason, I will always welcome constructive criticism from any part of the House. But it is wrong and unfair of us in Parliament to criticise local staff for the consequences of the policies of the Government. I intend to try to establish as close a relationship as possible with my staff, and I will not allow its members to be made the butt of criticisms which should be directed at me.
In advancing the date of the uprating to 22nd July—the earliest possible date—we have taken a calculated risk. It is that some pensioners may not get the increase in time and may, therefore, have to collect some arrears. I know that the members of the staff of my Department up and down the country will do their best to avoid this however much they may grumble at the amount of overtime involved. But if it happens, I hope that the House will realise why it has happened and that it is not the responsibility of DHSS staff but my own.
The second consequence of the speed with which we have carried through this uprating is that I have had to streamline our proposals for increases to a degree that I would not otherwise have wished to do. I have had to concentrate on the main elements in the uprating and to postpone a number of detailed improvements to another year. I refer, for instance, to the disregards point which was raised by the hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Dr. Winstanley) and the hon. Member for Somerset, North (Mr. Dean) in our earlier debates. I have had to do it because to try to deal with the problem of the disregards this time would have added another administrative complication. It would have meant that we could not have got the main uprating into operation by 22nd July. But I have all these matters very much in mind for future years.
The third consequence of the speed of our action is that we have had to bring forward an uprating Bill as quickly as possible. The National Insurance Bill to embody the uprating will be published at 11 o'clock tomorrow morning. That is an absolutely record speed. We produced the Bill in two days between the Budget announcement and publication, whereas last year the time taken was six weeks. That brings me to the work which my staff at head office has had to do to make that possible. It has been a really all-out

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job. I am sure that we all want to congratulate the staff on it.
If we are to get this uprating into operation by 22nd July, it is necessary to get that Bill through the House with the utmost speed possible. I hope that the House will recognise this and be willing to co-operate.
Is this record uprating just a flash in the pan by a new Government, or shall we make it stick? We intend that it shall stick. That is why, for example, the Bill will alter the previous Government's statutory obligation on the Secretary of State to have regard to movements in prices in the annual upratings. We shall embody in the Bill in its place the statutory obligation to have regard to movements in earnings where these would be be more advantageous to the beneficiary. As we get on top of inflation the value of that to the pensioner and to the other beneficiaries will become increasingly clear.
Looking at the figures over the years, we find that pensions merely in line with prices would never be sufficient and that we must link pension increases in future to the movement in average national earnings so that pensioners can be guaranteed a continuing share in our increasing national prosperity.
What about prices? Will the value of the increase be undermined before it comes into play? As I have pointed out already, we have left ourselves a record margin of 29 per cent. as against an increase in prices between the last uprating and February of 5·2 per cent.
Then there are the steps that the Chancellor has taken in the Budget to hold down prices of essential articles. The burden has been put on the less essential items, but, clearly, the holding down or the reduction of the prices of bread and milk are of crucial value and importance to pensioners.
All of us have argued about the need for a special pensioners' index geared more to take account of their dependence on certain basic needs. I hope that, before I conclude my speech, the House will be satisfied that we have geared our policy to ensure that the real value of this increase in terms of essentials is maintained as much as possible.
Mr. Michael Grylls: Will the right hon. Lady give way on that particular point? I am trying to follow her speech closely. It is obviously crucial how the value of these new pensions, which we all applaud, will be maintained. Will she comment on the observation made in the Press today by the National Association of Old-Age Pensioners that very few will be better off and that many will be worse off at the end of the day if we take the whole of the Budget into account?
Mrs. Castle: Obviously, the association has not yet heard my speech. I think that I shall have some reassurance for its members. It is quite wrong. Of course, it could not be expected to examine not only the Budget but the uprating details already announced and what I am about to announce. Had it been possible for it to do so, I do not think that it would have made a comment like that.
I was about to turn to a matter which I know is causing anxiety; namely, the effect of fuel price increases. A massive increase in electricity charges can be a body blow to an old-age pensioner. The Government are not unaware of this situation. We have not just taken a cash figure that looks good and then allowed it to be eroded in 101 different ways. We have tried to plan the beginnings of anti-poverty strategy.
Yesterday I told the House that the Supplementary Benefits Commission was looking urgently at the question of heating allowances. I am glad to be able to tell the House that the commission have decided to increase the discretionary additions which it makes to supplementary benefits where extra heating is required on account of ill health or other special difficulty. The existing amounts of 30p, 60p and 90p will be increased by one-third. The commission will give effect to the new rates from the same date as the increases in the supplementary benefit scale rates come into operation.
I am advised that the new heating additions take account of fuel price rises since the amounts of existing additions were fixed and of the further price increases announced by my right non. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on Tuesday. Therefore, that point has been met.

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The House will also be glad to know that the commission proposes to increase from the same date the allowances for special dietary expenses. These are currently 40p and 92p, and they will go up to 50p and £1·12 respectively
I expect that all right hon. and hon. Members know of cases where pensioners have been put in fuel difficulties not only because they were ill or in bad accommodation difficult to heat but because they lived in centrally heated premises. We all know of cases where pensioners could not meet their fuel bills. The present allowance for heating within the normal supplementary benefits scale rates is £1·20. From 22nd July this will be increased to £1·60 and £1·80 where it is impossible to distinguish between expenditure on heating and lighting or power for cooking. Where these allowances can be demonstrated to be inadequate for centrally heated accommodation, the amount of the excess can be met by an exceptional circumstances addition. In addition, when there is a long spell of severe weather and people generally have to spend more than they would normally spend on heating, special help in the form of a lump sum payment may be appropriate.
The arrangements that I have described will be of real assistance to old people who could otherwise suffer from the cold in the winter. It is our intention that they shall not suffer. Therefore, we have again insulated those in greatest need from the effects of our economic difficulties.
There is another point on the social security side in which I am sure the House will be interested. In the ordinary way an increase of income, such as pensioners and other beneficiaries will be receiving on 22nd July, would have to be taken into account by local authorities for their rent and rates rebate or allowances. Obviously we do not intend that the increases we have announced should be clawed back in part in this way, because that would defeat the whole purpose behind the increase.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of of State for the Environment will be seeing to it that pensioners and others who receive these increases do not, as an immediate consequence, experience a reduction in the rent or rate rebate that they
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already have. Rent and rates are taken into consideration in full in assessing supplementary benefits. My right hon. Friend, who will be announcing the details in due course, has told me that he intends that the increases in pensions and other benefits should not affect existing rent and rate rebates and rent allowances. Again, I hope that the House realises that we have secured that these shall be real increases in terms of the essentials of life for those concerned. We have made a start in the battle against poverty. I do not pretend that it is more than a start, but I repeat that it is remarkable in the economic situation that we have inherited.
In the meantime, we are pressing ahead with our long-term plans. For example, the child endowment policy and family allowances have been matters of concern particularly to many of my hon. Friends. I do not think that they can be matters of much concern to the Opposition Front Bench, because when they were in power they failed totally to keep their election promises on these matters. Therefore, I hope that we shall not hear anything from the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East about the lack of a child endowment policy at this stage. It will be costly if it is to be effective. It cannot be done on the cheap, and we cannot achieve it this year.
That brings me to the family income supplement. Yesterday I told the House that we were proposing to increase the prescribed amounts that govern entitlement to FIS. We do not like FIS. As soon as it is economically and administratively possible we want to replace it by our own non means-tested scheme. In the meantime, we must deal with the situation as it is. We cannot leave the poorest families without help, so an increase in FIS is necessary.
Therefore, we propose to increase the prescribed amounts to £25 for the one-child families with £3 for each additional child. The maximum amounts will be increased from £5 to £5.50—this applies to families with one or two children only —and for other families from £6 to £7. The effect of the uprating will be to increase weekly FIS payments, according to rounding, by £1.70 or £1.80 for a one-child family, £2 for a two-child family, and so on, increasing in steps of 20p or 30p for the larger families. Those already

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on the maximum will get an additional 50p for one-child or two-child families and £1 for larger families.
Mr. Kevin McNamara: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, and I am sure that all of us on this side who criticised FIS when it was introduced, as an inequitable system of trying to aid families in poverty, will welcome these increases. An important point relates to the most biting criticism which can be made of FIS. What steps is my right hon. Friend taking to ensure that all those families who are entitled to it will receive it?
Mrs. Castle: As my hon. Friend says, one of the big objections to FIS has been the low rate of take-up. I have been so busy in the last three weeks, so dizzy with the detailed statistical tables of the uprating, that I have not yet had time to give my mind to that point. However, I certainly will from now on.
Nor do we intend to abandon our long-term pension plans. As the House knows, we inherited the 1973 Social Security Act, which comes into operation in April next year, and many of the administrative preparations are already far advanced. We are committed to replace it, and that remains our long-term policy. Of course, we have come into office so near the date of operation that we face serious interim difficulties, and all those concerned with running occupational pension schemes need to know as quickly as possible what our plans, both interim and long term, are. I have told the House that we shall be announcing our interim plans as soon as we have had time to take breath and work them out. We intend to publish a White Paper embodying our long-term plans and we shall do so as quickly as the complicated issues involved allow.
I now turn to the health side. Inevitably, in these three breathless weeks, the attention, in this House and outside has tended to be concentrated on the uprating.
Mr. Norman Lamont: On the point that the right hon. Lady has just passed from—her plans for the Social Security Act—is she aware that what she has said will cause acute uncertainty among employers who
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are just at this moment setting up occupational schemes? The Secretary of State has said that she wishes to carry on setting us those schemes. When she talks about "replacing" the system, does she mean altering the balance between private schemes and the State Reserve Scheme, or is she using the word "replace" in the sense of replacing them totally by State schemes?
Mrs. Castle: The hon. Member cannot have attended our earlier debate when I dealt with this point. The industry has never been in any doubt about our long-term plans, or that we have a profound difference of principle with Conservative Members about their social security scheme.
I said in the debate on the Address, for instance, that the Conservative scheme would mean that large numbers of pensioners would have to supplement their pensions from social assistance well into the twenty-first century. It is inadequate, it will not do, it is unfair and, above all, it is unfair to women. I fought that battle when the Social Security Act was in Standing Committee; the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Thames (Mr. Lamont) was on that Committee with me. He knows my views, and he would not expect me to sit back and agree to the perpetuation of what I consider an inequitable scheme.
On the other hand, we are taking full account of the difficulties in the interim period of those who are responsible for organising occupational schemes. We are in touch with them, and shall be increasingly in touch with them. So it is a two-tier process. We shall have to have an interim adjustment, because we cannot bring in our long-term plans in a matter of months; it will take more like two and more years. So we shall have to have an interim answer, and a long-term one. The interim one we are working on urgently; the long-term goal will be embodied in a White Paper which we shall place before Parliament as quickly as possible.
Turning to the health side, I realise that the National Health Service and its future and the policies that we shall follow towards it have inevitably been crowded out of the debates that we have so far had, but, after all, as I have said, these are early days. The fact that we

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have had to concentrate first on the social security uprating does not mean that we intend to neglect the development of the National Health Service or those aspects of our policy which are designed to achieve two aims. The first is the democratisation of the rigid managerial structure that I have inherited from my predecessor. Second, we do not intend to neglect the need for steady progress towards the restoration of a National Health Service which is free at the point of use. These are the policies outlined in our manifesto, and we intend to proceed towards them as quickly as possible.
I have already explained that the massive reorganisation of the National Health Service which the right hon. Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) carried through is coming into operation in three days. In that situation, I would be totally irresponsible if I were to try to stop it or reverse it at this point. We have to think of the patients first. We have also to think of the staff who work in this service, who have faced an upheaval with which we should sympathise.
We are now examining ways in which we can move towards greater democratic control of the National Health Service within the existing legislation and without altering the appointments which have already been made. We shall be issuing a statement on our proposals as a basis for consultation in a very short while. It is right that the House should recognise that reorganisation has put a tremendous strain on the staff. We should send them on their way with a word of thanks and encouragement.
Mr. Arthur Lewis: I appreciate that the general scheme, which is coming into effect in three days, cannot be altered. However, I think that my right hon. Friend is aware of an anomaly which neither side of the House wanted. Many good hospital and health workers have been, and are, local borough councillors. The reorganisation means that they must give up those positions and will be unable to stand at the municipal elections, although they may want to; they are now deemed to have a vested interest. I understand that there are to be discussions with the Department of the Environment. Is it not possible at least to say that, pending investigation, these people should be allowed to con-
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tinue as councillors and stand at the next election, until we see what we can do to help?
Mrs. Castle: My hon. Friend is right to say that this is a matter for the Secretary of State for the Environment. It clearly is not a matter under my control. However, I will certainly consult my right hon. Friend about this point.
I believe that it would be the sincere wish of the House to pay a tribute to the staff of the NHS and also to others who have helped them in the task of preparing themselves for this profound change in their lives. We are immensely grateful, for instance, to those universities and other institutions which have between them provided some 1,500 places for senior staff from the three parts of the existing National Health Service in integration courses giving them a wide insight into the new service, the tasks facing it and the staff affected.
Equally, I would pay a tribute to all those other institutions too numerous to mention by name which have, in addition to the great mass of professional and occupational education and training which is constantly going on, helped or acted as partners in other aspects of preparing for change—special courses and so on for those concerned with medical and dental administration, seminars for consultants and general practitioners, special training schemes for personnel officers and, within the personnel framework, for training officers also. This has been a considerable effort, and it is important to the success of the new service. We are all grateful to those concerned. I hope that in the coming months we shall have a number of debates on the health service in which we may together monitor the benefits of the reorganisation and work out future policies.
I turn now to deal with two specific points. Our goal is a free health service, and we shall move towards it as fast as the economic situation will allow. I have already made clear that we cannot this time round afford to abolish prescription charges outright. It would cost £50 million, and it just is not within our resources at present. However, as an earnest of our good intentions for the future we propose to make two easements of the situation now—after only three weeks in office. We propose that two

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further groups shall receive prescriptions free of charge. I shall be laying regulations next week to raise the period in which children are exempt from under 15 to under 16 years of age. They will also lower the age from which women are exempt from 65 years to 60.
I know that a number of my hon. Friends have pressed repeatedly on these two points. They have been two serious anomalies even within the prescription charge scheme. Therefore, pending the time when we can abolish prescription charges, we thought it was right to move urgently on these two points now.
Mr. McNamara: Is my right hon. Friend aware that we very much regret that she is not able to abolish prescription charges entirely? However, her concessions on these two specific points will be met with universal applause on the Government benches. We have pressed for them for many years, and my right hon. Friend's announcement will be warmly welcomed outside the House as well as in it.
Mrs. Castle: I am most grateful to my hon. Friend. Of course, he is right. These points have been raised by him and by others of my hon. Friends time and time again because they were regarded as inexcusable anomalies. I am glad that it falls to me to announce their abolition so quickly. We should also thank my right hon. Friend the Chancellor, who has managed at this moment of his difficulties to find the extra £3 million a year they will cost. It is a small amount but nevertheless important when he is counting every penny.
Mr. Sydney Bidwell: My right hon. Friend says it will cost £50 million to abolish prescriptions completely, but is that the true net figure? May I suggest that the more exceptions she makes the greater will be the administrative costs? When the last Labour Government reintroduced prescription charges we made the point repeatedly that administrative costs absorbed much of the saving arising from charges.
Mrs. Castle: I remember my hon. Friend's passionate arguments on that point. I do not believe that the Treasury is as naive as all that. My hon. Friend cannot say that administrative costs
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would mop up the whole £50 million. There would be a large surplus. Nevertheless, I am glad to have been able to take this small but very proper step.
Mr. Michael Alison: The Chancellor has been kind enough, from the Secretary of State's point of view, to find £3 million to enable her to make this concession. Will he find £3 million to enable her to implement Baroness Sharp's recommendations? If he cannot find that £3 million, does she feel that the money for the prescription charge concessions is best spent on these pensioners and young people, many of whom are relatively well-to-do, or would it be better spent on the disabled, who are seriously inconvenienced and suffer serious immobility?
Mrs. Castle: I believe that the hon. Member is unintentionally misleading the House when he suggests that we could provide for the needs of mobility by the disabled by an additional £3 million. If he has read Baroness Sharp's report he will know that the cost has been kept down only by altering the whole eligibility criteria in a way which many of the disabled will resist. May I ask him to await the consultations which the Government have already started in great detail with disabled persons and their organisations to examine Lady Sharp's report and all its implications for our policy towards the disabled.
The new arrangements on prescription charges will come into force on 8th April, which is the earliest date on which we can get the necessary notices to the chemists and to the doctors who dispense medicines. It will be some months before new prescription forms can be printed, but in the meantime all that the newly eligible patients will have to do is alter the age on the prescription form before they tick the appropriate box and sign the declaration. Hospitals will be asked to make similar arrangements for out-patients. In view of the representations which the medical and pharmaceutical professions have made for exemption of these two age groups I am sure that we can rely on the cooperation of the professions in bringing the changes into operation from the earliest possible date rather than waiting some months until new prescription forms are available. Anyone in a newly

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exempted group who has a prepayment certificate for prescriptions will be able to claim a refund for the unexpired period.
The cost of spectacle frames is another issue which my hon. Friends have raised. That cost can hit some family budgets particularly hard, especially as bad eyesight often runs in families. The cost of frames has increased, and I have had to decide whether or not to pass on these increases, which are due on 1st April, to the patient. I have decided that the patient shall not have to meet this further burden. Dependent on the type of frame, this will save patients up to 25p. I know that this is a small saving, but a small saving can be significant for some families and I am sure that it will be welcomed. In addition, I have made and laid before the House orders to ensure that charges for the replacement and repair of schoolchildren's spectacles, previously met by the local authority, will not have to be paid by patients but will be borne by the National Health Service. In view of these developments I say to my hon. Friends that we are on our way.
It is in the context of this move towards a free health service that I turn to a matter in which I know the whole House is deeply interested. For the last two and a half years Mrs. Justice Lane and her committee have been inquiring into the working of the Abortion Act. The committee submitted its report on 20th December 1973, and, in accordance with my policy of publishing all important reports with the least possible delay, I am pleased to be able to say that the Lane Report will be published on 3rd April as a Command Paper. I know that hon. Members and the public generally will take a very keen interest in the report and will wish to consider its recommendations carefully. Of course, I do not intend this afternoon to anticipate the report's findings except to say that the Lane Committee attaches prime importance to the development of family planning services and recommends the development of adequate and acceptable family planning facilities easily accessible in the community.
That there were 114,000 abortions last year, many arising from unwanted pregnancies, will be a matter of concern to all of us. My predecessor had already announced plans for a comprehensive
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family planning service to be based partly on clinics and partly on the surgeries of general practitioners. His plans received widespread support from all sides of the House, and I have no wish to reverse them.
Family planning is already generally available under the National Health Service on medical grounds and from many local authority clinics on non-medical grounds. From 1st April it will be open at NHS clinics to all who ask for it, irrespective of age or marital status. This means all NHS family planning clinics, those run by hospitals, those which were before 1st April run by local health authorities, and those run on behalf of the NHS by voluntary bodies, such as the Family Planning Association. It does not include clinics which the association or other voluntary bodies continue to run independently.
Under the previous Government this service would have been free apart from the payment of the normal prescription charge, unless, of course, the person concerned happened to be exempt from this. We have decided that it would be wrong to impose prescription charges for family planning supplies obtained from NHS clinics and hospitals, and we do not, therefore, propose to make the necessary regulation which would have been required to impose prescription charges. From 1st April family planning supplies prescribed and dispensed at clinics and hospitals will be free of any charge whatsoever. As I said, I cannot abolish the prescription charges immediately, but I certainly have no intention of imposing new prescription charges. The cost of not imposing prescription charges in this regard will be £700,000 in 1974–75 and £1 million in a full year, when the service is fully developed.
My predecessor's plans for a comprehensive family planning service under the NHS would involve, as well as clinics, greater participation by general practitioners and hospital doctors in providing family planning in non-medical cases. My predecessor had already started negotiations with them about the basis on which this could be achieved. I discovered that, unfortunately, those negotiations have taken longer than planned and therefore it will not be possible to extend those parts of the service from 1st April.

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This presents us with considerable difficulties. Clearly, having provided a free service in clinics and hospitals, it logically follows that we should adopt the same policy for the service which is to be provided by general practitioners, as soon as negotiations have been completed, to bring them into the service. I am as sorry as anyone that these negotiations cannot be completed in time for GPs to participate in the comprehensive service by 1st April and that the negotiations with hospital doctors for providing a service outside clinics for social cases are not completed. I am doing all I can to speed matters up and we are submitting evidence on GPs to the doctors and dentists Review Body and asking it to price the work involved.
Here I must sound a cautionary note. Much as I want to include GPs in the service, the final decision must depend on what will be the cost of their participating. Funds are not limitless. There are many other things that I am being pressed to do in the National Health Service. We must wait to see what emerges from the Review Body's considerations. The doctors, too, wish to consider their position when the Review Body has reported.
Until then I have no alternative but to ask GPs to continue to provide family planning services on the same basis as at present. This means that they will continue to give advice without charge, but they may make a charge for issuing private prescriptions in social cases and the patient will pay the chemist the full costs. It means that prescriptions for medical cases will carry the current prescription charge. I assure the House that as soon as we can reach agreement with the GPs on the conditions on which they will participate in the new service, I will make regulations exempting from charges the family planning supplies which the GPs prescribe.
Regarding the extension of family planning services in hospitals, including vasectomy, I shall be discussing further with the medical profession what the long-term arrangements should be. The principles of the contracts of senior medical staff are to be examined by the joint working party I announced on 15th March. In the meantime, the new health authorities will operate within the terms of the previous arrangements. During the interim period
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they will not be expected to expand deliberately the work being done in hospitals, and I shall shortly issue guidance to health authorities on their family planning services.
Mrs. Renée Short: I am obliged to my right hon. Friend for her statement about the availability of family planning services without charge at National Health Service hospitals and clinics. I am delighted that such progress is being made, and I hope that it will not be long before it can be extended completely. Can my right hon. Friend undertake that in order to publicise her new proposals she will embark on a considerable advertising campaign to let the general public know that they can go to NHS hospitals? I hope that my right hon. Friend will not allow inhibitions—for example by the London Transport Executive—to prevent such advertising. Is she prepared now, in order to see that the services which she proposes are carried out successfully, to have discussions with the University Grants Committee to ensure an improvement in the training of medical students so that family planning matters are included in the medical curriculum, which is not the case at present at all teaching hospitals?
Mrs. Castle: I share my hon. Friend's hope that it will not be long before we have a comprehensive, free family planning service. It will not be my fault if this does not come about. It will be because matters which I have already outlined have gone wrong. I shall certainly bear in mind my hon. Friend's points.
Dr. Michael Winstanley: I welcome the right hon. Lady's important statement. However, does she accept that many GPs believe that provision of family planning services to their patients ought always to have been part of their contracts of service as GPs to their patients? Until she can negotiate new arrangements to bring it within the NHS for ordinary GPs, will she look favourably on GPs who liberally interpret the question of the need for contraceptives on an ECIO prescription form, as a medical need?
Mrs. Castle: I am not sure whether it is for me to monitor the clinical decisions of doctors. The hon. Gentleman,

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in his worthy enthusiasm for the scheme, may be drawing me on to dangerous ground. I hope that his friends in the medical profession take careful note of what I have said. I hope also that it will not be long until we find a solution to all our difficulties in this matter.
I have detained the House longer than I intended, but this happens when one is interrupted so frequently. But it is an important matter and I appreciated that the House wished to have clear particulars. That is why I have spelt out my proposals in considerable detail. In this way I hope that maximum publicity will be given to my proposals.
This is my interim report over the whole field of my activities. I hope that it will be my pride and pleasure to make further progress to the House from time to time.
4.49 p.m.
Sir Geoffrey Howe: When the right hon. Lady yesterday announced to the House details of the changes which were to be introduced in social security benefits I made clear the extent to which these were welcomed by the Opposition. I now wish to make it clear that one of the less agreeable features of the right hon. Lady—although she has acceptable and agreeable faces, as well—is the extent to which, whenever, after an election, she makes announcements of this kind in the House, she approaches the matter as though, at last and for the first time, some great new developments are about to take place. This afternoon she said: "We have made a start." It is this possessive, arrogant, disregarding attitude of the Labour Party towards the social services which we regard as unacceptable.
I wish to make clear that my right hon. and hon. Friends have for many years in the past made substantial contributions and will, we hope, do so in the future, to the advancement and improvement of the health services and social services of this country. After all, it was not the last Labour Government who introduced pensions for the over 80s or increased benefits for younger widows. It was not the last Labour Government who introduced for the first time benefits for the severely disabled and the chronic sick, as well as a pattern for an annual updating of social benefit reviews. Nor did the last Labour
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Government achieve, as the Conservatives did, a higher growth of real expenditure on improvements of services for the elderly, the mentally ill and mentally handicapped. Nor did the last Labour Government, to judge from the observations of Richard Crossman, produce a fair deal for the pensioner. That is the history. If I may borrow a saying that the right hon. Lady will not forget— "Why read the crystal when one can read the book?"
The last Conservative Government, with the powerful leadership, in this field, of my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) did a vast amount to improve the social services in terms of cash and care. It is arrogant nonsense for the right hon. Lady to talk about making a start. She has made a substantial increase—we do not disregard this—in cash benefits. But we want to know how far that will be of realistic value, and how far she is making an intelligent choice of priorities; how far her social aspirations will be supported by the economic policies of her right hon. Friend; how far, at the end of the day, when the Labour Government fall, will it appear to be the case that they have achieved real progress in improving social services for the people of this country. That is the test by which we were glad to have been judged and as a result to have received the support of the overwhelming mass of the pensioners and old people in the last election.
The pension increases announced by the right hon. Lady were cash bids made by her party as long ago as 1972. They come into effect some time this summer. The increases fall far short of the real percentage increase in value which the right hon. Lady is claiming for them, even taking into account the improvements in heating allowances about which I was glad to hear, and about which I asked the right hon. Lady yesterday, and the arrangements she hopes to make in relation to the rent and rate rebates.
When one considers the impact of the substantial increases in indirect taxation, adding 14 per cent, to the cost of living; the increases in the prices charged by nationalised industries, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Carr) made clear yesterday cannot to some extent be challenged in principle; and the unquantified consequence of the

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increased employers' contributions, about which the Paymaster-General was less than precise last night—when one considers all those matters, one wonders just how well the increased cash value of the pensions will look in 12 months' time.
After all, what do the Chancellor of the Exchequer or any of his colleagues expect the rise in prices to be, in relation to which the pension increases will have to be effective, apparently, for at least 12 months? What will the purchasing power of these pension increases be next April, which is when we should have been introducing our six-monthly review of benefits? Will the pensions now proffered by the right hon. Lady be at the level which pensioners could have received if pensions had been subject to our clear commitment to a six-monthly review of pensions and other social benefits?
Mr. McNamara: Can I take it from what the right hon. and learned Gentleman has said that six months from the date of the announcement of increased pensions and other benefits we shall have from the Opposition a statement of what the level of benefits would be if they were in power, and that we shall have such a statement every six months thereafter?
Sir G. Howe: The hon. Gentleman must learn to appreciate that his party is now in government and takes its responsibility for what is or is not being done. What I am saying is that we committed ourselves to a six-monthly review of pensions and other benefits, which represents a logical step forward from the annual review which we introduced and on which the right hon. Lady is now so glad to be building. That is a perfectly logical development of our policy, and it is not clear why the Government have rejected it.
Moreover, what will be the value of the right hon. Lady's pledge to raise pensions annually in line with earnings? How far will that compare with the achievement of our Government? Over the period from June 1970 to this month, average earnings went up by 50 per cent. and average pension levels went up by 55 per cent., well ahead of the rise in prices, and far ahead of the performance of the
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Labour Government that preceded us in office until 1970.
The question the country may well be asking itself before very long under the present Government is whether earnings will rise ahead of prices, and whether the pledge to keep pensions improving in line with earnings is of any significant value. [Interruption.] I am just posing the question for Labour Members to ask themselves. With the additional thrust to the rate at which wage claims are likely to rise, with the tax push that the Chancellor has deliberately injected into his Budget, and with the cost push that that will deliberately inject into the price level in our shops, it is a moot question whether earnings in the next 12 months will rise as fast as prices under the economic policies of the present Government.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Denis Healey): May I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman to confirm the conclusion I have drawn from what he has said, that he is now confident that the present Government will keep the rise in earnings below the increase in prices? If that is so, what was he fighting the last General Election about?
Sir G. Howe: I do not follow the inwardness of the right hon. Gentleman's question. I am trying to discover precisely what the right hon. Gentleman's Budget Statement means. If he is confident, as his intervention appears to imply, that the rise in earnings will be below the rise in prices, he is confident that there will be a fall in the real living standards of the people. That is the point my right hon. Friend made yesterday. The Government have failed to spell out that consequence. That is the important question to which people will want to know the answer.
I turn to what the right hon. Lady said about the second question, the consequences of the Social Security Act 1973. She and her right hon. and hon. Friends fought that Act through Parliament during the last Session. It now represents a firm foundation for a long-term pension policy for the country. Alongside the progressive improvement in the State basic pension, which went ahead under the previous Government, there was to be growing up a second, funded, occupational set of pension schemes. The people,

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the employers and those whom they employ, have come to accept that as a sensible way forward.
Now the right hon. Lady arrives on the scene committed to a long-term dismantlement of that. Worse than that, she is committed to an interim dismantlement, acknowledging that those concerned with these matters need to know what will happen, and yet not making any statement or giving any assurances on which employers and those concerned with pensions can begin to build for the future along the lines approved by the House in the last Session.
This is one of the other regrettable features of the way in which a Labour Government come to power, as did the 1964 Government, committed to some grandiose reconstruction of the pension schemes, committed therefore to years of uncertainty, confusion and obstruction of the growth of that which should be taking place naturally and effectively upon the basis of the legislation passed by the last Government. The right hon. Lady must, as soon as possible, remove the uncertainty, doubt and anxiety, and make it plain to the employers, those who run pension schemes and the workers that they can go ahead on a firm basis to extend the scope and scale of supplementary pensions schemes on an occupational basis. It is her first responsibility, and we shall press her to do that as hard and as often as we possibly can.
The Secretary of State said very little —indeed, nothing—about the changes being made in short-term benefits, save to point out that the differential between the increase in short-term benefits and long-term benefits was being maintained. We are glad that she recognises the importance of maintaining that difference in principle. The benefits are of a different quality, and it is right that they should be so treated.
The Secretary of State spoke also about the reorganisation of the National Health Service and paid a tribute, in warm terms, to the training and reorganisation being done by the staff in all branches of the service. Tribute deserves to be paid to my right hon. Friend the former Secretary of State and his colleagues in the Department for all that they did to get that massive and important scheme of reorganisation moving ahead smoothly.
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I am glad that the right hon. Lady has the wisdom not to disturb that.
We are disturbed, though, by the way in which the Secretary of State comes back yet again to the Government's commitment as a matter of doctrine—although not this week—to the establishment of a health service which is to be free at the point of use. This was the cry of the 1945 Labour Government; it was the cry and the attempt and the failure of the 1964 Labour Government and, so it seems, it is to be the cry and the attempt and the failure of the present Labour Government, too.
It is absurd, when there are so many pressing needs on limited resources available for the National Health Service, to attach such importance to the abolition of charges across the board and to regard that as an important objective. The former right hon. Member for Sowerby, Mr. Houghton, in the last Parliament clearly recognised that charges have a legitimate rôle to play in the operation of a health service and are an important way of raising the resources to meet the huge needs.
I would not quarrel with the two specific changes that the right hon. Lady has made; raising the age from 15 to 16 for children and bringing the age for women into line with their age of retirement. It is worth pointing out that the change from 15 to 16 for children is a logical consequence of the last Government's success in raising the school leaving age to 16, a change which the previous Labour Government found themselves unable to carry through, despite the fact that they were committed to it. It follows sensibly from that.
We welcome the early publication of the Lane Committee's Report on the important question arising from the Abortion Act. That will need to be carefully studied. We should not go along with such enthusiasm as the right hon. Lady with a decision to move towards a totally free family planning service. There are many pressing needs within the National Heath Service, and one of them is in relation to the Sharp Report. The cost of implementing the Sharp recommendations, which represent an improvement—we can discuss the distinctions in detail later—would amount to £3 million. The probable cost of a totally free family planning service would be about

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the same. It is that kind of comparison or choice of priorities that has to be made. The right hon. Lady must know that many people would not attach the same priority to a free family planning service as she does.
The whole basis of the approach of the Labour Party to the wider issues underlying the Budget in social matters should be questioned, particularly the importance that the Government have attached to the use of general food subsidies to the extent of £500 million, as announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget Statement. Subsidies of that kind have an indiscriminate effect. They appear to be composed to the extent of about £300 million in terms of a subsidy on the price of milk for all families, which will reduce the cost of living by about 0·75 per cent., to some extent a subsidy on bread, and some other quite modest and undisclosed figures.
The total impact of those food subsidies, according to the figure produced by the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Dell) yesterday, will be a reduction, or a non-increase, in the retail price index of about 1½ per cent. That single figure was overwhelmed in last month's figure and will be overwhelmed in next month's figure. It will be completely overwhelmed by the increases in indirect taxation that have been announced in the Budget Statement. Although the solution of general subsidies was urged upon us frequently, we believe that we were right to resist their adoption and extension in the way the Labour Party has chosen.
The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Joel Barnett): But the Shadow Chancellor when answering my right hon. Friend yesterday would not concede that he would have gone as far as we did on nationalised industry subsidies.
Sir G. Howe: My right hon. Friend said nothing of the kind. Yesterday my right hon. Friend referred to what my right hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Barber) said in December—that one of the consequences of the change in energy prices would have to be a review of the prices of nationalised fuel industry services. That was something to which we were
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clearly committed from December onwards. We also made it plain then that that would need changes in the social service system, including such things as the heating allowances which the right hon. Lady has now disclosed. What we made perfectly plain, and what I think will still prove to be manifestly true to the people of this country, is that general food subsidies to the tune of £500 million are, and will be, wasteful.
Mr. Healey: The right hon. and learned Gentleman is opposing a general subsidy on basic foodstuffs, which form the major part of the old-age pensioner's budget. He will be aware that we are still paying £500 million in indiscriminately subsidising the nationalised industries. Does he regard that, too, as far too much to pay in subsidies? If not, will he tell us how much more he would have increased the nationalised industry prices than we are increasing them?
Sir G. Howe: I am acknowledging the wisdom implicit in what my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton said yesterday and what my right hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale said about reducing the prospective growth in the increase in subsidies to the nationalised industries. The right hon. Member is well aware that some of those are in any event directed to specific social purposes—transport, for example.
Mr. Healey rose—
Sir G. Howe: I will not give way again.
What I am challenging is the wisdom of adding to that a generalised subsidy on a small range of foodstuffs, because to do so raises this question. Having gained the advantage of a 1½ per cent. check in the movement of the retail price index, but nevertheless having accompanied that by other price increases and other indirect tax increases, which will themselves thrust the retail price index directly upwards as the result of what the right hon. Gentleman is doing, how much further do the Government propose to go with food subsidies?
Mr. Arthur Lewis: Up, up and up.
Sir G. Howe: How much longer do they propose to go on? How much do they propose to allow people to see a rerun of the movie that ended with the

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declaration by Sir Stafford Cripps in 1949? This is the reality.
We had a period over a number of years when food subsidies went up and up each year until eventually Sir Stafford Cripps had to tell the people that, whatever happened to prices, we must not allow subsidies to rise above the fixed level, which was then £465 million.
Subsidies in a general form are no solution. They obstruct the capacity of the Government to introduce more selective and more effective social remedies. They obstruct the capacity of the Government to keep down taxes. This is the error to which the right hon. Gentleman has committed himself and which he will live to regret.
Mr. Healey: It would be helpful if the right hon. and learned Gentleman could answer the question that I put to him. He says that it is not right to subsidise milk and basic foods for ordinary people, particularly the poor, to the extent of £500 million. Does he think that £500 million is too large a subsidy to pay to the nationalised industries for, among others, social reasons affecting indiscriminately all sections of the population? I put this question to his right hon. Friend yesterday but he dodged it completely.
Both the right hon. and learned Gentleman and his right hon. Friend must know that we have had to raise nationalised industry prices in order to reduce by £900 million the deficit left to us by the previous Government. Nevertheless, we are subsidising nationalised industries still by £500 million. Does he think that it is too much? If not, why does he think that £500 million is too much to spend on subsidising basic foods?
Sir G. Howe: It was, and is necessary for any Government to reduce the extent to which prices of nationalised industry products get out of line with the cost of producing them and out of line with their market value. It was necessary, in addition, to ensure that the price of coal reflected the consequences of the settlement in the coal mining industry. It is for the right hon. Gentleman to make his judgment about the amount.
Mr. Healey: The Tories were in power a month ago.
Sir G. Howe: The right hon. Gentleman should recollect that on 17th December my right hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale made perfectly plain that increases in these prices would have to come. It was perfectly plain that they would be dealt with in the Budget which my right hon. Friend would have introduced. There is all the difference in the world between ensuring that economic prices do not move further away from sensible levels and intervening, as the right hon. Gentleman has done, by raising additional taxes to introduce quite fortuitous extensive general subsidies on food, indiscriminately to the advantage of rich and poor alike. This is the opportunity he has missed. He will regret that he has had to spend as much as £500 million on food subsidies in this way.
It is now clear to the people of this country that having a Labour Government necessarily involves higher taxes in support of indiscriminate social benefits, that having a Labour Government necessarily involves higher taxes which do not fall just upon the rich. The increases in direct taxation of almost £1,000 million in the right hon. Gentleman's Budget will fall on a wide range of ordinary income earners and workers. It will affect, for example, those struggling either to commence or to complete house purchase. It will affect the composite rate of tax paid by building societies. It will affect the rates payable by such house purchasers. It will affect the married couple without children from an income level of £34 a week upwards. It will have a dramatic effect on the typical couples in this country now where both the man and woman are at work. There are 5 million working wives, so that there are two incomes coming into the home perhaps producing an average joint income of £50, £60 or £70 a week.
For all those people, many of whom are striving to buy their own homes, the tax increases introduced by the right lion. Gentleman will be substantial. In particular, the reduction from £5,000 to £4,500 of the level at which surtax begins to be paid will have a sharp effect on people in the very groups which the Chancellor ought to help; for example, senior hospital registrars or deputy headmasters, leaving aside the executives and junior managers upon whom the success of this country depends.

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It will also have an effect upon the appetite for wage claims, as we see in today's papers, of people employed in the engineering industry and members of ASLEF. We shall look with interest upon the extent to which those unions and their members go along with the so-called social compact about which we have heard so much. We shall ask with interest what prospect there is, against that background, of getting fair pay for groups such as nurses, teachers, and health service ancillaries.
Mr. Arthur Lewis: The lawyers.
Sir G. Howe: We shall ask what prospect there is of fair treatment for them when the Government have apparently disregarded and set aside the prospect of their claims being, referred to the relativities board or any comparable machinery. We shall look with interest also at the impact of the measures proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer upon many families living in retirement on small fixed investment incomes which are to be more severely taxed from the level of £1,500 upwards.
The consequence of introducing such large general subsidies is not merely a rise in taxation; it is the rejection of many alternative social policies that would have been a great deal more advantageous; a more substantial improvement in the earnings rule; larger and swifter improvements in benefits for the disabled; assistance for separated—
Mr. Healey: Where has the right hon. and learned Gentleman been for the last three and a half years?
Sir G. Howe: It is all very well for hon. Gentlemen opposite to speak in that way, but where have they been for the last three and a half years if they have failed to see the massive and progressive improvement in social benefits introduced by the previous Government? They have no monopoly of effectiveness in this field. Hon. Gentlemen opposite disable themselves from pursuing effective social policies by the extent to which they commit themselves to high taxes and indiscriminate social benefit. Why have the Government not thought it better to make some move at this stage towards an improvement in the arrangements for family allowances? If they reject—as apparently
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they do—the tax credit scheme, we welcome their acceptance of the family income supplement scheme. I was glad to notice that the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not altogether reject, or close the door upon, some variation of the tax credit scheme, because somewhere along the line we have to find the best way of combining the tax system and a system for the relief of poverty.
All these options in this Budget have been closed to the Government because of the extent to which they have been committed to general benefits and higher taxation. The truth is that the benefits of this Budget, such as they are, will turn out to be illusory. It purports to offer benefits that are free when they are not; it makes a substantial contribution to rising prices and lowering living standards without saying so; it distributes such benefits as it does in a way that is more wasteful than the alternative that could have been chosen. Above all, it conceals the realities of the gravity of the situation facing the people of this country.
It suggests—this is the central fallacy that underlies the thinking of the Government—that we can advance the social condition of the people of this country by redistribution. We have passed that point, and right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite ought to have recognised that. It implies—this is the illusion that will gradually be destroyed by this Budget—that the rich, and, above all, productive industry, can bear the cost and the consequences of making the people of this country more equal. The people of this country do not want equality. They want fairness, as do the Opposition, but we do not believe that fairness can be achieved without at the same time setting off in pursuit of increased prosperity, increased investment and increased saving and acknowledging the rôle that can be played by increased profit.
That is why I close on the same point as my right hon. Friend the Member for Farnham (Mr. Macmillan) did yesterday. This is a Budget which curtails the advantages open to those who save; it curtails the advantages open to those who invest in industry; it curtails the advantages open to those who take risks and accept responsibility for improving the performance of our industry, and it threatens the

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prospect of success and prosperity for the future of this country.
We must face the fact that the growth, prosperity and resources of this country depend upon the success of our own productive industry. That industry cannot possibly achieve what we expect of it if it has to face the imposition and burden of high and rising taxation, which it faces already under this Government, and which it would continue to face if the present Government were ever able to introduce another Budget. That is why we in the Conservative Party hope and believe that this is the last Budget that the present Chancellor will have an opportunity of introducing.
5.20 p.m.
Mrs. Audrey Wise: I am grateful to the House for this opportunity to address it. I come from a new constituency: Coventry, South-West. Therefore, it is a little difficult for me to follow the customary conventions of courtesy. However, I should like to mention that a large number of my constituents had the pleasure of being represented by my hon. Friend now the Member for Coventry, South-East (Mr. Wilson).
I am grateful, too, for the help and kindness that my hon. Friends have shown me in explaining the somewhat obscure procedures of the House. I am grateful as well to the right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) for the note on which he ended his contribution, which explained so clearly the priority given by the Tory Party to the question of high profits. My constituents will be most interested to notice the spelling out in such kind and welcome detail of the facts that hon. Members opposite are conscious of the dangers of indiscriminate social benefits but quite oblivious of the dangers of indiscriminate tax hand-outs to the well-off. We never hear the merits of the case for hand-outs to the rich such as my right hon. Friend the Chancellor's predecessors accomplished in their Budgets over the past few years.
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services for her statement and for her emphasis that this is a beginning in improving the social services. It is not only we on this side of the House who have escaped
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noticing the great improvement in the social services which has taken place over the past three and a half years. My constituents have frequently escaped this blinding knowledge.
There are so many casualties of this kind in society that, however good we become in arranging ambulance services to pick up the victims, I fear that unless we make basic changes in the nature of our economy we shall never have sufficient ambulances for all the casualties. The problems that people face do not lie only in the realms of social service, nor are problems faced only by pensioners. I am extremely concerned about the situation in respect of owner-occupiers.
I have not really had the privilege of deciding the subject of my own maiden speech. I have had it pressed on me by a telegram from the leader of the Coventry City Council, urging me to make representations to the Government on the need for action to restrain mortgage interest rates. I am asked, too, to express Coventry City Council's pledged support for
"any move to enlist further local authority involvement"
in the question of mortgages. I am sure that the sentiments expressed by Coventry City Council are shared by many other local authorities, which are extremely anxious and disturbed at the plight of owner-occupiers. I urge my right hon. Friend to look closely at any possibilities which may exist for short-term amelioration or cushioning of the effects of the increasing mortgage interest rates.
My right hon. Friend was correct when he said in his Budget speech that there is no short cut on this question. In talking to the many owner-occupiers in my constituency during the course of the election campaign I was careful to make it quite clear that, if they sent me to the House in the hope that I would add my voice and efforts to those being made on the question of mortgage interest rates, what they were, in fact, asking me to do was to help to make basic and fundamental changes in our whole capitalist system.
I share with all my right hon. and hon. Friends the admiration which has been expressed in many quarters at the sheer scope and complexity of this Budget Statement. It is certainly a remarkable achievement in the short time available. Equally certainly, it is simply a beginning. It is not even a halfway house. It

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is an attempt to juggle with the horrible situation which we inherited from hon. Members opposite.
I am one of many on this side of the House who consider that if we are to build on this beginning we shall have to take urgent and serious steps to gain control of our own economy. I and my constituents have noticed repeatedly that when the phrase "the national interest" is used it usually prefaces a statement that the nation cannot afford something which I and my constituents and my hon. Friends want and need very much. It always prefaces a statement that, for instance, we cannot afford better social or medical benefits or better treatment for the disabled. Somehow or other this nation cannot manage to afford those things, and, despite the valiant efforts of my right hon. and hon. Friends now, we are still left with the situation where we cannot afford anything like the improvement which people look to this Government to provide. We shall never be able to afford them until the nation controls the nation's economy.
I urge my right hon. Friend to look very carefully at the activities—indeed, the machinations—of the multinational companies and to bear in mind the distortion of the pattern of trade of this country which is implicit in their activities. A very large proportion of our foreign trade is not so much trade between buyers and sellers in the normal way, where prices are fixed as between buyers and sellers, but simple transfer between one section of a giant multinational company and another section. Therefore, the constraints that normally apply in fixing prices between buyers and sellers do not apply at all in this kind of transaction.
I urge my right hon. Friend to look carefully at the effect of this on, for instance, the balance of payments. It has a triple effect. Transfer pricing, which can mean overstatement of prices of imports into this country, adversely affects the ceiling level of the balance of payments. It understates profits, causes an Exchequer loss, and causes an inflationary effect on the prices being paid by consumers for imported goods. I should like my right hon. Friend to give serious consideration, first, to obtaining information about these aspects and, secondly,
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to tackling them so that the country can run its own economy.
I should like to express my disappointment at the fact that my right hon. Friend dismissed in 11 lines the possibility of instituting direct control of imports. I do not think that in a speech which occupies 51 columns of HANSARD 11 lines are sufficient consideration to give to the question of direct import control. I am not a professional economist, but I am not impressed by the handling of the economy which has taken place over so many years under the direct advice and nursing of so many professional economists. I suggest to my right hon. Friend that if resources or foreign currency are scarce there is a certain logic in saying "Let us import what we can afford and what we most need." Therefore, there seems to be a good case for import controls at the very least on luxury goods. I hope that by the time my right hon. Friend presents his subsequent Budget he will have given this matter a good deal more consideration.
As a Member representing the city of Coventry it behoves me to have particular concern for the interests of my constituents. Whilst again expressing my admiration for the achievements of my right hon. Friend in the production of this impressive Budget, I draw his attention to the feelings which will arise in my constituency concerning the petrol tax.
I noticed that my right hon. Friend's reason for introducing VAT on petrol is not simply a financial one. He argued the case not in financial terms but as a means of conserving
"our supplies of oil and to reduce the pressure on our road system and to make life more tolerable in our towns and countryside. This will help to ensure the economic use of scarce resources".— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th March 1974; Vol. 871, cc. 309–10.]
Many hon. Members on the Government side do not think that we can ensure the correct use of scarce resources by increased prices. We do not think that those who can afford to pay more necessarily have a better claim to the use of petrol or of any other scarce resource. I urge my right hon. Friend, when considering transport, to do it as an exercise in transport policy and not as an exercise in taxation policy. I also suggest that any approach to transport which does not take into account the views of persons

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engaged in vehicle building will be an inadequate and unsatisfactory approach to transport, since it inevitably involves the use of vehicles. At present, decision making in this area is in private hands. It is not in the hands ultimately of elected representatives of the people, nor of workers in the industry, nor of users of our transport system.
As a Member representing the city of Coventry, I urge that we want proper use of petrol but that we do not appreciate this particular action by my right hon. Friend and we look forward to a situation where transport decisions are made by those involved in transport work and vehicle building—in other words, the democratisation of this area of decision making.
In conclusion, I should like to say that this is entirely in line with the policies on which I and my hon. Friends fought the General Election, not only for the redistribution of wealth, which we are starting—I look forward to seeing further instalments in the near future—but for the redistribution of power which at present is used indiscriminately in private and irresponsible hands. I look forward to the time when we move on to judging our investment and other programmes on the basis of public need and public decision, taken openly in the best democratic traditions of the House, and extending those democratic decisions to areas which at present are completely closed to any but private closed-doors decision making.
5.37 p.m.
Mr. Peter Viggers: I am greatly obliged to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for this opportunity to catch your eye and to make my maiden speech.
It is not for me, as a maiden speaker, to congratulate the hon. Lady the Member for Coventry, South-West (Mrs. Wise) on behalf of the House upon her own maiden speech, although I should like to congratulate her on the clarity of her exposition, and to say that I am inclined to agree with her views on economists, that I share her concern for owner-occupiers, but that I do not go far along the road that she has put before us this afternoon.
I have the honour and responsibility to represent the new constituency of
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Gosport. Gosport was previously represented as part of South Hampshire, and later it became part of the constituency of Gosport and Fareham. In the 1970 election, the constituents of Gosport and Fareham numbered more than 100,000. That constituency was split to form the separate constituencies of Gosport and Fareham.
The previous Member for the joint constituencies of Gosport and Fareham is now my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham (Dr. Bennett). It is a tradition of the House that maiden speakers pay tribute to their predecessors in the constituency. It is for me to pay tribute not to any immortal shade but to the real and continuing presence of the hon. Member for Fareham. It takes a man of substance to be split in two and to produce two Conservative majorities of 7,000. I know that the people of Gosport would certainly wish me to thank the hon. Member for Fareham most heartily for all the work he has carried out on their behalf over the past 24 years and to wish him well in his constituency of Fareham.
Traditionally, maiden speakers are allowed the indulgence of a description of their constituency, and that indulgence I should like to take. I was born in Gosport; it is my home town. Gosport consists of the municipal area of the district of Gosport. It includes Bridgemary, a council housing estate, and Rowner, a new housing estate of owner-occupied houses, as well as Lee-on-Solent, Alverstoke and the older established areas of Gosport. It is superbly situated, looking across Spithead towards the Isle of Wight and across Portsmouth Harbour to Portsmouth.
There is a popular misconception prevalent in this country that Gosport is near Portsmouth. That is not strictly true. Any of my constituents will say that Portsmouth is near Gosport. Gosport and Portsmouth are traditional neighbours and friends who exchanged cannon balls during the Civil War, and I am delighted to say that on that occasion Gosport was on the side of Parliament.
In a television programme recently it was said that Gosport is the Royal Navy and the Royal Navy is Gosport. We have in Gosport the Royal Naval Armaments Depot, Victualling Yard and Aircraft Yard. We have a submarine base at

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HMS "Dolphin". We have various naval units at HMS "Sultan". At HMS "Daedalus" we have an air-sea rescue unit, and the Inter-services Hovercraft Unit. We have a Royal Naval Hospital at Haslar. We have the computer centre, the dental school, the physiological centre and many other naval units. Gosport is very much a Services town.
There are many Service personnel stationed in Gosport. It is an attractive place to put down roots—or perhaps I should say to "make fast ashore"—and it is a popular area for retirement. It is a well-known sailing area. There are three popular dinghy sailing clubs as well as a marina at Camper and Nicholson's world-famous boatyard.
I understand that it is a tradition that maiden speakers sometimes seek to entice right hon. and hon. Member to visit their constituencies. I have no need to seek to entice right hon. and hon. Members to visit my constituency if they are interested in yachting and boating. Indeed, we cater for all classes of yachtsmen. Not everyone can be in the Admiral's Cup team, and we have a school for beginners in sailing.
We have some light industry, most of which has been established since the war. We have about 3,500 people employed on television assembly at the Thorn Electrical Company factory at Bridgemary, and Cyanamid and Lederle have pharmaceutical companies there.
I share with my constituents a great concern for defence. It is not only the people who serve in the Armed Forces who are concerned about defence in Gosport. We find that this concern is shared by the widows of Service men and, indeed, by retired Service people, because people who devote their lives to the Armed Services believe in what they are doing. They are dedicated. They believe that the years of peace that we have had since 1945 are not an excuse for reducing the Armed Services and our defence expenditure but that these years of peace are a tribute to the work carried out by the people in the Armed Services.
I believe that the £50 million reduction in defence expenditure in the Budget, which is a reduction in expenditure on men and equipment, is in all the circumstances not unreasonable, but I promise
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to pay healthy attention to the review of defence expenditure that is now suggested.
This afternoon, so far, we have been talking mainly about golden eggs. I am sure that all hon. Members share the view that we should give great regard to the way in which money is spent, but I wish to look for a moment at the health of the goose. It simply is not good enough to give all our attention to the distribution of the budgetary amounts available. We must look at the health of the economy, and I am not entirely certain that enough attention has been paid to this.
I take one specific area—North Sea oil development. I am not concerned now about the ownership and the taxation of the oil that comes out of the North Sea. I set that aside for the time being.
There are three phases in the development of an oilfield. First, there is the exploration phase, when, of course, we need the expertise of foreign companies. Then there is the development phase, when the fields are actually developed. That is when the money and men are needed. Third, there is the production phase. Nothing very much happens or is seen to happen during the production phase. There are not very many job opportunities or investment opportunities. All that we are getting is a healthy return for our balance of payments. That, of course, is fine. But the main opportunities—the opportunities for investment, the opportunities for creating jobs arise during the second phase, the development phase of an oilfield.
It is calculated that about half of all the industrial investment that will take place over the next few years will, in the broadest sense, take place in the development of offshore oil. There is a huge range of industrial opportunity for Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom. There is opportunity to participate in the construction and assembly of rigs; to sell pipe for oil pipelines; there is "drilling mud"—indeed, expenditure on "drilling mud" constitutes 15 per cent. of the cost of drilling an oil well. There is opportunity for sales of concrete and all kinds of technical products and the development of all kinds of skills.
The development of the North Sea oilfield will take place in the most appalling weather conditions. The water depth is about 400 to 600 feet, and the planners

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have to cater for storms with 100 foot waves, 150 mile-an-hour winds, a water temperature of 4°C and air at freezing level—weather conditions which create the Scottish temperament.
Any country whose industries can cope with this challenge can then go on and operate world-wide. What we have to do is to
"…develop a long-lasting oil-related industry which will be there when the companies have moved into other waters … and … we can do it only if it is an indigenous industry in which we own the new technology, techniques and expertise which is developed."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th March 1974; Vol. 870, c. 1220.]
I am aware that traditionally a maiden speech should avoid controversy, and, therefore, the quotation I have just read is from a speech made last week by the Under-Secretary of State for Energy. I share that view completely. For too long, United Kingdom companies have held off from investment in this area. They have been afraid perhaps that demand would not be continued. That has been my experience with the British Steel Corporation. It is a tragedy and a scandal that the pipe used in the North Sea will predominately be Japanese and Dutch.
If the Government can see a potential long-term benefit to our industry, they should give a lead. This is not a chance in a lifetime. It is a chance which the country has not had since the Industrial Revolution. It is a chance in two centuries. The British can be the Texans of the 1980s if they are capable of taking this opportunity.
There are two kinds of company which might benefit from involvement in the North Sea project. The first is the smaller, perhaps United Kingdom-based, company which needs Government encouragement and incentive to involve itself in this work. The second type is the multinational company. I congratulate the hon. Member for Coventry, South-West on her remarks. I have experience of multinational companies and do not disagree with a great deal of what she said.
The multinational company does not care which subsidiary company it puts its particular activities through. It is as happy operating through a company outside the United Kingdom as it is through a company within the United Kingdom, and it needs incentives in the same way
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but for different reasons as United Kingdom companies. If multinational companies and United Kingdom companies can be encouraged to enter this area of activity, it will encourage industrial investment which the country needs, and it will create job opportunities.
My concern is that in the Budget Statement there is no measure, not one word, that would help the Under-Secretary of State for Energy to encourage the industrial development we need. Indeed, industrial investment and development seem to have been discouraged. I hope that it can be accepted as non-controversial when I say that budgetary steps should be taken to stimulate the development of our own oil industry. Perhaps we may hope for these steps in the next Budget from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whoever he may be.
5.50 p.m.
Mr. David Marquand: Whatever hon. Members may think about later passages in my speech, I am sure that I shall carry the House with me in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, South-West (Mrs. Wise) and the hon. Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers) on two truly excellent maiden speeches. I am always somewhat in awe of hon. Members who manage to speak without notes, but when one sees a maiden speaker without notes it is quite terrifying and intimidating, particularly if it is happening just behind one. I thought that my hon. Friend was particularly splendid in her uncontroversial passage in which she chewed up the spokesmen from the Opposition Front bench. If that is what she is like when being uncontroversial, we can look forward to splendid stuff when she is being controversial, which I hope will be often in future debates.
The hon. Member for Gosport was perhaps slightly closer to the tradition of non-controversiality. But I think that he, too, managed to insinuate some fairly deft thrusts under that witty and urbane mask at the beginning of his speech, and we hope to listen to him on many future occasions as well.
This debate is being held in the shadow of perhaps the most terrifying economic situation this country has faced, certainly since the end of the Second World War. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of

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the Exchequer set out the awesome experience he had when he walked into the Treasury three weeks ago, and I am sure that we all felt very much for him.
Of the dangers which my right hon. Friend outlined to us in the appalling legacy left behind by the Conservative Government, I think that we would all agree that by far the most serious is the problem of inflation. I think my right hon. Friend was right when he said that inflation at the present rate—last month at just over an annual rate of 13 per cent.—is already beginning to threaten the social cohesion of the country and that if it were to continue it would pose very serious dangers to our democratic institutions. The present level is bad enough, but the real danger is that the present level may not be held. When inflation gets to a level as high as this it carries with it the seeds of still further acceleration, and we would be deluding ourselves if we thought that the present level was likely to be held.
I think we may well see by the end of the year that the forecast of the National Institute that inflation would be between 14 and 18 per cent. may well turn out to be right. If inflation is running at about 18 per cent. by the end of the year, God knows what may happen next year. This is really by far the most serious problem that the Chancellor faces, that the Government face, that this House faces, and, indeed, that the whole British political system faces or has faced for at least 30 years.
The real test of the Government is how successful they are going to be, not in reducing the rate of inflation from the present level to a lower rate in the near future—I do not think that will be possible—but at any rate in moderating the increase which the National Institute and other commentators have foreseen. This is the context in which I should like to approach the Budget.
The question has to be looked at in two different contexts. There is first the context of the demand effect of the Budget, the Budget judgment. Secondly, and I believe more importantly, there is the context of the social implications of the Budget and its effect on the distribution of income and wealth in society. I believe my right hon. Friend was broadly
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right on the first point. It would have been extremely irresponsible in present circumstances to have accepted the advice of those like Mr. Wynne Godley who are arguing for substantial reflation. To have added extra inflationary pressure from demand on top of the other inflationary pressures in the economy would have been an act of gross irresponsibility. I am glad that my right hon. Friend resisted those siren voices.
Massive deflation as advocated by Mr. Peter Jay in The Times the other day would also have been a mistake in present circumstances because it would have given the signal—quite apart from the effect it would have had on the British economy —to all other oil-consuming countries facing substantial balance of payments deficits to solve their balance of payments problems by competitive deflation. It would be hard to think of a better recipe for a return to the recession—indeed, the depression—of the 1930s.
My right hon. Friend was right to take a neutral course, erring slightly on the side of caution. When it comes to the effect of the Budget on the distribution of income, however, I must say candidly that I am not so sure that my right hon. Friend's judgment was right. The test that has to be applied is simple. Will the Budget facilitate the early establishment of an effective incomes policy, acceptable to the majority of trade unions and the majority of the membership of the unions? That is the test which must be passed by any counter-inflationary Budget.
I do not believe that an incomes policy provides the sole answer to domestically-generated inflation. That was the mistake made by the Conservative Party when it had its sudden and belated conversion on the road to Damascus over incomes policy. It put far too much stress on that. But although it is true that incomes policy cannot be the sole answer to domestically-generated inflation, it is also true that there is no conceivable hope of preventing inflation from getting worse without an effective incomes policy. That means that there is no hope of preventing inflation from getting worse unless the taxation policies of the Government are such that ordinary working people are prepared to accept the need for an incomes policy. It makes no difference whether that policy is called "voluntary "

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or "statutory". It will not work unless it is accepted by the majority of people whom it affects.
They will not accept it unless they think it is fair, and in our society working people simply will not accept as fair a policy which seems to them to perpetuate an unjust distribution of income and wealth. The test of any Budget is whether it redistributes income in such a way as to make an incomes policy acceptable to the people who matter on the shop floor. My right hon. Friend has done some important things in this respect. I welcome what he has done about pensions and food subsidies. I welcome the way in which he has paid for these increases. However, I believe that the changes in direct taxation carried out by my right hon. Friend could have been more redistributive. Frankly, I am surprised that those at the higher end of the scale have not been hit harder. I thought my right hon. Friend would hit them harder. I wish he had done. I think he could have done without risk to confidence, incentives and all the other fine words used so often by Tory Members.
I am not entirely happy about the strategy for public expenditure which seems to be emerging from between the lines of my right hon. Friend's Budget speech. I was delighted to hear what he had to say about the Maplin and Concorde cuts. I was less happy to notice that he does not seem to have gone back on the cruelly regressive cuts in public expenditure announced by the right lion. Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Barber) in December last during his mini-Budget. Those across-the-board, unselective and indiscriminate cuts in public expenditure made by the right hon. Gentleman were extremely abhorrent to me and to most members of the Labour Party. I hope that we will soon have from the Government a revised public expenditure White Paper setting out a very different strategy for public expenditure from that outlined by the Tory Chancellor in December. We cannot wait until next December for the next public expenditure White Paper. I should like to see one published much earlier.
I was glad to hear the announcement about the wealth tax. I accept that it would be absurd to try to bring in such a tax after only three weeks at the
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Treasury. No one would have expected that.
I am glad that there is to be a Green Paper, and full consultation. Who will be consulted, and in what way? It would be a great pity if a Labour Chancellor were to go back on the precedent established by the Conservative Chancellor when he set up a Select Committee to examine corporation tax and the tax credit scheme. The House ought to be one of the bodies to be consulted in the preparation of a wealth tax. I hope that the Chief Secretary, who in the past was a strong advocate of more effective committee scrutiny of these matters, can give me some reassurance.
On a smaller but still important point, I was sorry that my right hon. Friend said nothing about the charge of capital gains tax on death. My hon. Friend will remember that during the brief period when I had the honour to be one of his colleagues in the Shadow Treasury team it fell to me to give an assurance that a Labour Government would introduce the death charge on capital gains tax. I hope that we can have some statement from my hon. Friend about the Government's intentions in this respect. I am sorry to be giving so many queries to my hon. Friend but I am sure that he will take them in good part. I do not think that my right hon. Friend's Budget has gone quite as far down the road to a more egalitarian distribution of income and of wealth as it could have done at this time.
Mr. David Waddington: If that is the hon. Gentleman's view, to what extent would he have increased the 98 per cent. tax at the highest level of investment income?
Mr. Marquand: The hon. and learned Gentleman probably did not hear what I said earlier. I certainly meant to say that on earned income the increase could have been greater. I am sorry that I did not spell it out clearly. I think that a 98 per cent. tax on unearned income is a reasonable enough rate, but I believe that the Budget could have been more redistributive as far as earned incomes are concerned.
Although the Chancellor of the Exchequer could, without damage to the economy, have gone further down the road towards greater equality than he did,

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I still feel strongly that he has now fulfilled his side of the Government's bargain with the trade unions—the bargain that was implicit in the programme on which the Labour Party fought the General Election. I believe that it is now urgent for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment to come to the House to explain what voluntary incomes policy machinery is to be set up and what attitude the Government will adopt to wage claims during the next few months. I believe that it is not possible to have an effective incomes policy without very much greater equality of income and of wealth than we now have. But I also believe that it is not possible to have greater equality of income and of wealth without an effective incomes policy. That part of the structure still remains to be filled in, and I believe that it is urgently necessary for the Government to do so.
6.7 p.m.
Mr. John Pardoe: It falls to me to congratulate two maiden speakers in this debate. The first was the hon. Lady the Member for Coventry, South-West (Mrs. Wise), who wore her colours in this House and certainly spoke within the colour of red. Having stopped the entry to this House of one prospective hon. Lady after three-and-a-half weeks of campaigning in the General Election, I am glad to have the chance to welcome another hon. Lady to the House. The hon. Member for Coventry, South-West did not seem to be too keen on some of the items in the Budget, and most of the controversy in her speech was directed at her own Labour Front Bench.
The hon. Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers) spoke mainly about North Sea oil—and since we do not have with us any hon. Members to shout "Scottish oil", I think that on this occasion I can safely refer to it as North Sea oil. I was particularly interested in the hon. Gentleman's comments and I shall say a little more about that subject—perhaps in rather more sceptical terms than those in which the hon. Gentleman's speech was couched—later in my remarks. The hon. Gentleman said that the British could become the Texans of 1980. I do not think many of us look forward to a House full of Lyndon Johnsons and Big
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John Connallys, but I am aware that there are people in Texas who laugh all the way to the bank with the prospect of the loot they will carry off from the North Sea. Therefore I welcomed the hon. Gentleman's comments, particularly when he said that Britain should receive a much greater share from the whole operation.
I welcomed the announcements made by the Secretary of State for Social Services, not only her announcements earlier this week but the additions which she outlined in her speech today, particularly the heating allowances and her proposals in respect of prescription charges. Although pensions are very important, as is the National Health Service and the whole attack on poverty, it would be irresponsible to allow ourselves to indulge in the luxury of dealing with those matters in isolation from our economic policy as a whole. For this reason I welcomed the comments made by the hon. Member for Ashfield (Mr. Marquand), who put these matters in the context of our economic situation—a situation that is very grave.
There were other good things in the Budget and in the recent announcements, quite apart from the matters outlined by the Secretary of State for Social Services today. The best item in this the Chancellor's first Budget was his announcement that there would be a second Budget. That at least shows that there is considerable flexibility in the Government's approach to our economic problems. I do not know whether to look forward in anguish or in hope to the second Budget, but there is certainly much that it could contain.
I also welcome the Chancellor's announcement about second homes. This is a sore point with my constituents who have seen whole villages turned into waste lands for all but three months of the year. It is a crying scandal that people should be encouraged through the tax system to own second homes. I urge the Government to go a little further. For example, could they not withdraw the residential rate relief from second homes? I believe that this must be done.
I welcomed the right hon. Gentleman's announcement about a limitation on the size of mortgages, but the idea of £25,000 mortgages does not thrill my constituents

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and I wonder whether the Government have their priorities right. I do not know many people in my constituency who can afford mortgages of £25,000. Indeed, I do not know many people outside South-East England who can afford such mortgages. I see no reason why the tax system and the taxpayer should help to subsidise people with mortgages up to that level.
The major queries I wish to raise on the Budget, and indeed on the whole Budget strategy, spring from a quotation made by the Chancellor in his Budget speech when he quoted the National Institute's Economic Review for February. That review said of the Conservative Government's policy:
"It is not often that a Government finds itself confronted with the possibility of a simultaneous failure to achieve all four main policy ob iectives—of adequate economic growth, full employment, a satisfactory balance of payments, and reasonably stable prices."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th March 1974; Vol. 871, c. 282.]
That is not a bad starting point from which to judge the direction of the Chancellor's Budget. I imagine that he would wish us to add to that list the word "redistribution". I certainly would wish to add it as a major policy aim. Growth and full employment are essentially dependent on investment and on the level of demand.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer was fairly honest about how much growth he was expecting. He does not seem to me to be expecting very much, and I am sure there are many hon. Members who would agree that that would not be necessarily disastrous. I have never thought that the pursuit of economic growth at all costs was a pre-eminent aim of economic policy. There will, however, be rising unemployment, and there is nothing in the Budget that will stop it.
We have to ask the question: what of investment? The Chancellor was right not to add to the whole panoply of tax incentives for investment. What encourages investment is the prospect of future demand for the things that will be produced. There does not seem to be much prospect of demand, and there is not very much surplus cash available for investment, even if there were the prospect of increasing demand. Company liquidity is being squeezed dangerously by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and we must ask
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for an early announcement to see whether public investment will take up the whole of the slack.
We are deeply concerned about housing. We have had a chronic failure over years and years to build enough houses for the people who need them. Housing is very much an aspect of poverty. We cannot tackle poverty without solving the housing problem. Unless we can show the building industry a continued and effective demand, which means a demand which can pay for the houses it builds, we shall not get the houses. There is now a serious slump in the whole building industry.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer may feel, and his advisers seem to have told him, that some of the demand in the economy as a whole can be left to come from abroad. That takes me to the other aim to which the right hon. Gentleman referred in his quotation from the National Institute—the balance of payments. Obviously no one will expect the Government to close the gap immediately. No one will wish them to change course so dramatically as to aim at that. But I hope that the right hon. Gentleman is not pinning his faith on falling commodity prices. The previous administration pinned the whole of stage 3 on the idea that commodity prices would fall. I have no doubt that they will fall some day. But he would be a fool who forecast that they will fall in the near future. If they fall, it will be because of falling world demand, and then we shall have to sell our goods in a falling world market and, in spite of the fact that we are very competitive and shall be even after this Budget, there is not much hope that we can bridge the balance of payments gap by trying to increase our share of world exports if the total of world trade is falling rapidly all round us.
It may be unfair, but I get the impression that the Government, with only three and a half weeks in office and with all the figures available to them, are waiting for something to turn up. Like the previous administration, they hope that the terms of trade will change in our favour. But what if they do not? It is distinctly possible that they will not.
As for North Sea oil, refered to by the hon. Member for Gosport, this is in danger of becoming a great national

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myth. It is imagined by many people that we have only to sit waiting for it to come ashore and it will bail us all out. However, there is no certainty that there will continue to be a world oil shortage. What is more, it will be at least twice as expensive to get oil from the North Sea as from the major oilfields of the Middle East. We may find ourselves virtually forced to use some of the most expensive oil in the world in our own industry because of our reliance on North Sea oil. It is a very dangerous national myth.
What if the worst rather than the best predictions about North Sea oil and the world oil situation turn out to be true? Have the Government any real plans for the economy then?
Coming to what I imagine the Chancellor of the Exchequer would wish to add to the list in his quotation from the National Institute's Review—the word "redistribution"—I am amazed at the capacity of some Government supporters to suspend disbelief. I disbelieve all Governments when they talk about redistribution. So far there has been no major attempt in Britain since the last war to redistribute income and wealth. There have been lots of phoney exercises, but virtually nothing has been done to make a real attack on this problem.
We do not have a progressive tax system. I do not doubt the Government's compassion and humanity, but very real questions exist about the seriousness of their approach to poverty. The level of the old-age pension at £16 for a married couple was fixed in 1972. Then it was more than 40 per cent. of average industrial earnings. By the time that it comes in, in July, it will be 35 per cent. of average industrial earnings. What is the Government's target? What do they believe is the level for a married couple to live on as a proportion of average industrial earnings which is commensurate with a humane, civilised and compassionate society? The target must be at least half average industrial earnings. I do not suppose we can get to that immediately, but it would be helpful to have an announcement from the Government that that is what they are aiming at in the long term, by which I mean from five to seven years hence.
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Leaving aside pensions, what of other poverty? What about family poverty—family allowances versus subsidies? The right hon. and learned Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe) has already stated his view that family allowances would be preferable. I should have more sympathy with his statement if I thought that he would have spent £500 million on family allowances had his party won the last election.
I find the speed of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in increasing the child tax allowances while failing to increase family allowances a little odd. There is no doubt that people with incomes above the tax threshold will be slightly better off through the tax changes, though when the increased transport and fuel prices work through they will probably be worse off in real terms. But subsidies on food are likely to have a negligible effect when all these price increases have worked through.
To pay 90p to the first child and £1 to the second and subsequent children would cost £340 million a year, according to the Minister of State in answer to me on 18th March. That leaves us another £160 million of our £500 million to spend on food subsidies or to increase the level of family allowances for second and subsequent children.
It is those below the threshold who will be really worse off as a result of the Budget. It is they who will bear the full burden of the increases in transport and fuel prices and on the so-called luxuries of beer and tobacco. They will also have to bear the rates in very large areas of the country which will be no insignificant contribution to the inflationary spiral.
I do not believe that the Government have tackled the poverty problem as we would wish, assuming that their approach to poverty was serious. I hope that they will not shuffle off the tax credit scheme into a side alley. I hope that they will not be persuaded by the minority report of the Select Committee which the new Chief Secretary to the Treasury helped to write. I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer will have a careful look at the excellent article by Nicholas Barr and the hon. Member for Farnworth (Mr. Roper) in the Three Banks Review of this month in which they tear apart that minority report and say:
"It will be concluded that, at the very least, these charges have been overstated, and

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that, in fact, the tax credit system can be modified so as to make the whole of our income tax and social security system more flexible in operation and a more effective device for redistributing income."
The only real way to redistribute income is through a tax credit system. Any other way will end in failure.
Finally, will the Budget check inflation? It will not. It cannot. There is not one measure in it which will do anything to the chronic and dangerous inflationary spiral. The Government have left themselves without an incomes policy. Inevitably, therefore, they must adopt the monetary approach. However, they cannot adopt the monetary approach because that would increase unemployment to politically unacceptable levels. So they are settling for inflation, more inflation and inflation again. It would be possible to adopt a total subsidy policy. To do that, however, the Government would have to go very much further than the £500 million on food and the £500 million on the nationalised industries.
It might be possible to solve the problem of inflation by a massive subsidy policy, although it is by no means certain that we would come out right at the end. It is a dangerous risk in any event. The subsidies that have been announced are mere pinpricks in the problem. But inflation cannot be left to go on.
The Chancellor, in the early part of his speech, pointed out that in 1972 prices rose by 7·7p in the pound, that in 1973 they rose by 10·6p in the pound and that in the last 12 months to February they rose by 13·2p in the pound. I wonder by what percentage he expects prices to rise in the year from March 1974 to March 1975. Dare I suggest the figure of 24 per cent.? Would that be too excessive? I suspect that in March 1975, if the Chancellor is still on the Treasury Bench, he will be defending a price increase of something in excess of 20 per cent., and in that way lies total disaster.
We can, of course, live with inflation. We have made a start through threshold agreements, by tying pensions to earnings and other welfare benefits to the cost of living. But if we are to live with inflation, we had better make the decision now.
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We must look at monetary correction, otherwise the Chancellor will put himself in the position of being the greatest swindler in the business. Indeed, as reported at col 305 of HANSARD, in his Budget Statement he spoke of new proposals for national savings. This is a fraud. This House can no longer tolerate a Chancellor of the Exchequer or a whole Government putting their names to a deliberate fraud on the British people.
I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman in his surgeries in Leeds, if he holds them—I expect he does—would dare to advise any of his constituents to put any of their money into his new national savings certificate, the fourteenth issue, quoting a yield of 7·59 per cent. tax-free over four years, because over the last 12 months we have had an inflation rate of 13½2 per cent. Therefore, we need a tax-free yield substantially in excess of 7·59 per cent.—indeed, double that—to give any kind of return. To put £100 into any of the schemes mentioned at col. 305 is simply to pay the Government for the privilege of losing one's money. I do not believe that the Chancellor should go along with that any longer
I am sick and tired of Governments coming forward with spurious devices to persuade the British people to part with their money. I should think that War Loan is sufficient to warn any person in this country that if he lends money to any British Government ever again he is the world's greatest mug. Whatever the Chancellor may say to encourage people to put their money into his bonds, I should like it to be known that in my view no one should be encouraged to put money into any form of national savings unless they are guaranteed by monetary indexing against the rise in the cost of living.
The Government have stated that they are proposing all these measures in the Budget and the matters mentioned by the Secretary of State for Social Services to get a social compact with the trade unions. Mr. Joe Gormley, quoted in the papers this morning, has said that "no one can give guarantees about anything". He is absolutely right. No one can give guarantees. It is a delusion to suppose that the Government will get anything but a worthless bit of paper.

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I end by quoting some remarks by Clive Jenkins, reported in The Times on 20th November 1972, about the last Government's attempt to get a bit of paper. He said:
"Was it wise to try and add any weight to the peculiarly English myth that men of goodwill if incarcerated together long enough can reason out solutions to the human condition which would otherwise baffle alchemists? If a group of tired tripartite-type men had emerged from 10 Downing Street, waving a piece of paper and shouting 'It's peace in our time ', would this have contributed to anything except long-term cynicism?"
I do not believe that the next election can be won on a piece of paper, but the Government's attempt at an incomes policy will not be any more than that.
6.30 p.m.
Mr. Bruce George: I understand that a new Member approaches his maiden speech with apprehension, fear and, indeed, dread. I am no exception.
I represent the new constituency of Walsall, South. I pay tribute to the impartial judgment of the Boundaries Commission which made my presence here possible.
I also pay tribute to the three Members of Parliament who represented part of my new constituency: first the former Member for Walsall, North, Mr. William Wells, and secondly the former Member for Walsall, South, Sir Henry d'Avigdor-Goldsmid. The town they represented so competently for so long paid tribute to them only last week by making them freemen of the county borough of Walsall. I also compliment and pay tribute to the former right hon. Member for Wednesbury, my right hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Stonehouse), who bequeathed to me from his constituency the town of Darlaston, with which I have a particular affinity and affection.
Walsall is an industrial manufacturing town north of Birmingham. I thought I should mention that, because an ex-Minister recently asked me which constituency I represented. I said "Walsall" "Yes, I know Walsall", he said; "Is not that on the mouth of the Tyne?" Indeed it is not on the mouth of the Tyne. I will not tell the House who suggested that it was on the mouth of the Tyne as it might cause him embarrassment.
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Walsall is north of Birmingham but is far from being overshadowed by that neighbouring giant. It is a Black Country town, which is to be enlarged as a result of local government reorganisation, with a history going back to the early Middle Ages.
Walsall could not possibly be regarded as top of the beauty league. Aesthetically it is not particularly attractive. It may not be the cultural centre of the universe or the entertainment capital of the Midlands, but it is a town at the heart of the country, one of its workshops, helping to produce the wealth of the land. I refer particularly to Darlaston which epitomises the problems of our society. That town has helped to create the wealth of the nation. In wandering round Darlaston, however, one would think it was a ghost town of the pro, portions of Abilene or Wichita in the American West. As I said, it is a town which has created wealth, but there are few signs of that wealth in it.
I am pleased to speak in the Budget debate. I wholeheartedly welcome and endorse the Budget because the Chancellor, desipte our desperate economic situation, has sought to elevate a goal that I champion. He has set out to create a more just, humane, compassionate and, I hope, egalitarian society. In three weeks we have started out along that road. That goal will not be achieved by Easter, by 22nd July or, indeed, by the next Budget. But at least we have set out on that journey.
I want to devote the rest of my speech to the impact of the Budget upon the under-privileged, formerly known as the poor. They were supposed to have disappeared, but they are back—if ever they left the scene in the first place.
It is a tragedy that, after 25 years of the Welfare State and despite enormous affluence in our society, there is still far too much poverty within our society. We can study the official statistics, but these cold facts cannot hide the misery, the degradation, the frustration and the hopelessness of poverty.
Who are these people? What are the causes of poverty? I have studied a report in the Library by Rowntree written about 70 years ago. Although today's social scientists may criticise the methodology of that writer and the criteria he used

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to measure who the poor were, nevertheless recent research has shown—this is a staggering fact—that up to 20 per cent. of the population live below, on or just above the poverty line. This is a total of 10 million people—the elderly, the homeless, the unemployed, the low paid, the disabled and the single-parent families. I read only yesterday in the Evening Standard of the plight of one Mr. Arnott struggling on his £100 a week and thinking of emigrating. The problems of this gentleman cannot be exclusively put down to the Chancellor's Budget.
There are two myths about the social services. One is that if one is prepared to work hard, one can get out of poverty. That is not always true. Indeed, quite the reverse can often be the case. With the poverty trap, one can work harder but be worse off financially, such is the situation that we have inherited. The Budget and the Government's policies so far announced clearly recognise the plight of the underprivileged. The meek and the poor may not inherit the earth, but I hope that as a result of the Budget they will get a fairer share of what this earth produces.
Our election pledge to raise pensions will be speedily honoured. One newspaper called the increases "generous". I do not like that word because it is paternalistic. What we are doing is merely recognising the rôle that the pensioners in their working lives have played in creating the wealth that we possess.
One formerly neglected section of the underprivileged are the widows. I should like to compliment the widows' organisations like the National Association of Widows and CRUSE which have articulately pursued the real grievances of widows in our society. I am delighted, as they are, at the increases in pensions and at the raising of the tax threshold, although I hope that, in the next Budget or even before, the threshold will be raised again. Widows do not want charity. Many of them do not want to exist solely on widows' pensions. They desperately want to play a part within society, and I want to see created the framework within which they call play a more dramatic and relevant rôle in our economy.
Although there are many benefits in the Budget, there are still some anomalies.
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These include widows with difficulties in obtaining sickness or unemployment benefit, widows under the age of 40 with no dependent children, who receive no pension, widows taxed as single people regardless of their domestic responsibilities and widows who take home less pay than married women doing exactly the same job. I would make a special plea to my right hon. Friend to review the cohabitation rule which is causing a great deal of disquiet among widows. There are disturbing stories of officers of the Department of Health and Social Security exceeding what I consider to be their proper role. I hope that the Secretary of State will review this matter and make considerable improvements, because there is ample scope.
An anomaly which I hope and believe will be abolished is that of means testing. Many hon. Members on this side are appalled at the proliferation of means-tested benefits. There are over 3,000 of them and the defects are well known. They do not reach the people who should be reached. The take-up rate is abysmally low. The family income supplement, despite publicity, is taken up by only 50 per cent. of those entitled to it. There are many means-tested benefits for which the take-up rate is as low as 5 per cent. There is ignominy and stigma attached to claiming. I hope that the new Government will abandon selectivity as quickly as possible.
In the meantime, however, the benefits at present available should be publicised. I have a view, which may not be shared by some, that people have been deliberately kept in the dark about their rights in order to minimise the number of claims. I have been into Crown post offices at which the display of leaflets is derisory and have found the same situation at DHSS offices. I went into one DHSS office and asked the young man at the counter why there were not the forms available. He said "People keep taking them away". That surely is the purpose of the exercise.
If we are to have means-tested benefits, people should have at least a sporting chance of knowing what they are entitled to. I have conducted surveys of means-tested benefits. In one survey, 75 per cent. of old-age pensioners who were asked "Are you aware that you can get extra money for heating?" had no idea of

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the existence of these allowances. Some who did said "I know, but I will not go cap in hand to the social security to get 30p." That is one example and there are many others. The man in the street would probably say that he had not heard of attendance allowances.
Disillusion with the previous system forced me to produce at great personal cost a leaflet of my own outlining the welfare benefits for old-age pensioners and giving them a sporting chance of knowing what they were entitled to. At the time I produced that leaflet, petrol rationing was a possibility. I was amazed at the speed and efficiency with which the public were informed of their entitlement to petrol coupons. Oh that the Government had devoted as much energy and attention to informing old-age pensioners of the existence of heating allowances. Which is the more important, getting me to work in Birmingham or saving an old-age pensioner from the dangers of hypothermia?
Even if people are aware of the benefits to which they are entitled, they embark on an obstacle course before they get them, niggardly though they may be. They go to the social security office and may be turned down. If they have the gall to take the matter further, this involves a tribunal. None but the hardy is prepared to last out the course. So let us abolish means-tested benefits.
In the meantime, let us conduct an active campaign on television, by leaflets and in the Press. We could even do as Manchester has done—I commend this—and appoint welfare rights officers whose sole job is to increase the take-up of means-tested benefits.
I thank you, Mr. Speaker, for giving me the opportunity of speaking at such an early stage of this Parliament. I have fulfilled my side of the social contract by not being too controversial. I am glad that Tory Members have fulfilled their side by not interrupting. This is a Budget that I endorse, one which I hope, despite the protestations of the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe), will achieve its objectives. I look forward with eager anticipation to the next instalment.
6.43 p.m.
Mr. Percy Grieve: It is my happy duty to congratulate the hon.
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Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George) on an amusing and felicitous maiden speech and one which was spoken from his experience and from his heart. This House will always listen with attention to those who speak from their hearts and from their experience. With one thing that the hon. Member said I was in profound agreement. I speak as one born the son of a widow, and I share the concern that the hon. Member expressed for widows and his pleasure at the ways in which their lot in life can be made better.
In the great need of this country today, in the appalling economic crisis through which we are going, the Budget fails the nation. Not only does it not encourage the qualities of thrift and saving and the virtue and fact of investment which is necessary to put the country on its feet; it positively and deliberately discourages those qualities.
The Budget does that by a bludgeon which is used in many ways against industry, which is already reeling under the effects of the three-day working week and bad profits and which will be hard pressed as a result of the crisis of the winter. It does so by seeking to milk industry of every available liquid resource. It puts up corporation tax and it looks to industry for an advanced payment of its future instalments of corporation tax. It looks to industry to finance in large measure the increase in social security benefits. Proof of the effect of a Budget of this kind upon the confidence of the investor can be seen by what has happened on the Stock Exchange in the last few days. The point was reached this afternoon when the Financial Times index was down to 271·7, less than half the figure at which it stood in May 1972.
The Financial Secretary smiles at what I say, and that is a danger. The Labour Party is so obsessed with the evils, as it chooses to regard them, of profit that it fails to see that depriving the ordinary man of the incentive to save, depriving the investor of the incentive to invest and depriving industry of liquidity is to pave the way for the greatest slump since 1929. As if that were not enough, the Chancellor has even doubled the stamp duty. [Interruption.] Again we have guffaws from the Government benches and from the Financial Secretary. He does not apparently appreciate that

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Britain's stamp duty arrangements are unique, that one of our sources of finance is investment from abroad and that this will be a grave disincentive, as anyone who knows the City can say, to the investment of money in Britain. The country will suffer from these appalling defects in the Budget for a long time to come. It will certainly suffer until the Government and the Chancellor have a change of heart or until they are replaced, as I hope they soon will be.
My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition pointed out on Tuesday examples of spitefulness and meanness in the Budget. First, there is the attack on old people living on invested savings. Many of my constituents have served the country well, have sold their businesses and have put their money by, hoping to live in modest comfort on the proceeds. Those people will now be made subject to the 10 per cent. surcharge. My right hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Barber) sought to treat the first band of investment income—up to £2,000—in the same way as earned income.
The second example is the attack on the young executive, upon whose energies the country depends to a great extent for its prosperity. These people are suffering acutely from the mortgage situation and they, too, will bear the brunt—as the least able to do so among the better-off—of the tax increases. In my constituency these people have received a body blow from the Government through the increase in the rates. Solihull has lost £1·5 million under the reorganisation of the rating system. That means that the rates there will increase by 92 per cent., which is one of the steepest rises in the country. It ill became right hon. Members on the Government side to complain in the recent election about high mortgage interest rates since they are now seeking to punish the people who have to pay those rates.
Another aspect concerns the treatment of the investment income of children. The Secretary of State for Social Services this afternoon protested her concern for children. No doubt she is concerned for children when they are cared for by the State. However, when the care comes in the form of a legacy from a godmother, however modest the income of the child
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or the parent, both are to be punished by having their incomes aggregated. Comparatively few people are in that situation and I expect that the Government feel they can get away with it unnoticed because it does not affect many potential votes. However this is a act of unparalleled meanness which is devoid of all principle.
When last in power the Labour Government said that they were treating the family as a unit. But they treated the family as a unit not for purposes of earned income but only for investment income. This strange tribal conception is unique in the world. We all know that it is done to punish those who have incurred the displeasure of the Labour Party by their impertinence in having means of their own.
Mr. Peter Hordern: Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that, in view of this catalogue of the extra taxation and burdens which have been placed upon the elderly and those who save, it ill becomes Government Members to behave in this way, particularly the Financial Secretary, who has done nothing but snigger during this recital and who has himself received an increase in salary of £2,000 a year as a result of one of the first actions of the Labour Government?
Mr. Grieve: I agree with my hon. Friend. There is no principle whatever in treating children in the way I have described. It is grossly unfair and is an example not of politics or a philosophy of social justice but of envy and meanness.
I reserve my judgment on the wealth and gift taxes until I know what they are all about. However, by producing the threat of such a tax without adumbrating in any way how it will operate the Chancellor has done one more disservice to investors. No doubt that is something for which we shall pay. If the wealth and gift taxes are to be genuine fiscal measures, if as a result of the gift tax the level of death duties can be reduced, and if as a result of the wealth tax income tax can be reduced, no doubt they will receive a qualified welcome. If, however, as was indicated by the Chancellor during his election campaign, the purpose is to make the so-called rich howl, if it is to be a

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policy of simply expropriating private property, this too will be a policy not of justice but of envy and meanness. I trust that in those circumstances my hon. Friends, and perhaps even hon. Members on the Government side, will oppose it.
6.55 p.m.
Mr. Denzil Davies: The hon. and learned Member for Solihull (Mr. Grieve) made an extraordinary speech. One would not have thought that he had been a Member of the party which had formed the Government of the past three and a half years—a Government who have bequeathed to us one of the gravest financial and economic crises which this country has faced for a long time. If his Government had not been in office we would not have had a balance of payments deficit of—quite apart from the oil problem—£2,000 million. His Government also presided over inflation now running at 15 per cent.
Perhaps the hon. and learned Member would care to explain to his elderly constituents, who he says are suffering, that the main cause of their suffering has been the inflation brought about by his right hon. and hon. Friends' fiscal and monetary policies when they were in government. Perhaps he would also care to explain to young people paying huge interest rates on mortgages that this is largely due to the disastrous decisions of his right hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Barber) as Chancellor of the Exchequer during the past three and a half years.
Listening to Opposition Members one would have thought that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been Chancellor for a long time, whereas he has been in office only three weeks. [Hon. Members: "Too long".] He has inherited a considerable financial and economic problem. A period of humility, if not of silence, would have been more in order from the Opposition, considering the state in which they left the country.
I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Chancellor on producing in a short time a Budget which most people would regard as fair and which goes some way towards creating that just society without which we shall be unable to solve the country's problems.
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I therefore hope that my colleagues on the Treasury Bench will not think it amiss if I make a few reservations on some of the matters in the Budget, and I hope that they will not believe that I am unmindful of the difficulties they have faced. A major problem facing the country is inflation. Another is the distribution of wealth. There are still vast concentrations of wealth in the hands of a few people. These are two of the major problems. Inflation is the more immediate problem, but there is also the concentration of wealth in our society.
I believe that the running of a Budget deficit—we have been running large deficits recently—contributes to inflation and that reducing the deficit can, to some extent, reduce inflation. It seems that a Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer is in the not too unhappy position of being able to reduce the borrowing requirement and, at the same time, to take action towards breaking up large concentrations of wealth which still exist in this country. My right hon. Friend has made a start. He has been able to reduce the borrowing requirement by about £700 million. That is not a particularly large figure and we still have a long way to go, but no doubt further steps will be taken to reduce the requirement further.
I am somewhat disturbed that my right hon. Friend has taken only £250 million of the reduction for the year 1974–75 from increases in direct taxation. I understand the difficulties of raising vast sums of money at the higher rates of income tax, but I feel that in this respect more could have been done. For instance, a married man with two small children, fortunate enough to earn £10,000 a year, will, following the Budget changes, be worse off in terms of direct taxation to the extent of about £180 a year—not a vast sum for a man earning £10.000. I do not advocate taxing people for the sake of taxing them, but a man in the position I have described will probably consider that he has come off fairly lightly under the Budget changes.
There was an intervention regarding the 98 per cent. top rate of tax on investment income, but I believe that there are few people receiving investment income at such a level as to attract that rate of tax, and the point made about it is not particularly relevant. The

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higher income groups have come out of the Budget in not too bad a shape.
I wish that my right hon. Friend could have increased direct taxation a little more than he did—£250 million in 1974–75.
We are facing a grave financial crisis. The only way to solve it is by reducing the borrowing requirement and, thereby, the rate of inflation.
I also take issue with the Treasury Bench on the subject of child allowances. The cost of increasing these allowances will be about £165 million in a full year. The richer taxpayer benefits more from an increase in allowances than does the poorer taxpayer. A man with a tax rate of 60 per cent. gets more benefit from an increase in child allowances than a man with a tax rate of 30 per cent. A person who pays no tax gets no benefit from an increase in child allowances. The money could have been better spent in increasing family allowances, which cost in a full year, I understand, between £340 million and £350 million. But the £165 million now coming back in increased child allowances could have been better utilised to give an increase, admittedly not a large one, in family allowances. The higher tax a person pays the more allowances he claws back.
I welcome the changes in indirect taxation as being the fairest way of raising more revenue from that source. I have, however, two reservations about this. First, I was sorry that I heard nothing from my right hon. Friend about the possibility of increasing the rate of VAT on certain goods which might be called luxuries. He could have introduced a higher VAT rate for those goods which fell into the top rate under the old purchase tax system. A higher rate on such goods at a time of grave national crisis could have been a way of raising extra revenue without hurting people at the lower end of the income scale.
I also take issue over the proposal for VAT on petrol. I understand why my right hon. Friend took this action, but a fairer system would have been a differential licensing scheme for motor cars, based on cubic capacity. A figure of, say, 1,800 cc could have been chosen on which to base a differential licensing scheme. Many people in country areas, as well as in industrial constituencies, have to use
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cars to get to work because there is no public transport. Others who work on shifts cannot depend on public transport and have to use their cars. It would have been fairer to impose a tax on those who can afford to buy and run larger cars, without penalising those who drive smaller vehicles and have to use them to get to work.
I welcome my right hon. Friend's announcement that he will introduce a gift tax. We are one of the few countries in the Western world without a comprehensive gift tax.
I am glad that my right hon. Friend also said that he would not introduce a wealth tax now but would produce a Green Paper. I am possibly in a minority on the Government benches in not believing, although I may be convinced later, that a comprehensive wealth tax will necessarily achieve the objects we on this side of the House want to achieve. There are considerable problems in extending a wealth tax over the whole range of assets, because there are difficulties with valuation and exemptions.
But I am disappointed that the Inland Revenue was unable, it seems, to advise my right hon. Friend that it would be possible in the Finance Bill to introduce a simple capital levy on certain accumulations and aggregations of wealth. For instance, a vast amount of money is tied up in trusts and settlements, much of it accumulated from generation to generation. It would have been simple to impose a kind of capital levy on the asset value of all trusts and settlements. That was done under the 1965 Finance Act in relation to capital gains tax. It would not have been administratively difficult, and I am disappointed that my right hon. Friend did not introduce it.
Such a levy could have been extended to property companies. Over the past few years the property investment company has benefited enormously from inflation. It has not sold its properties, it has not turned them over, but has merely used the increased value of its assets to borrow more money. A capital levy on the assets of a property investment company could have raised a great deal of money and gone some way towards achieving our purpose. If later we wanted a wealth tax, we could have dovetailed such a levy into the legislation on that tax.

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By announcing a gift tax, my right hon. Friend has made it expensive to avoid estate duty. But someone could have remembered that over the past two years the previous Chancellor had benefited those paying estate duty to the tune of £150 million. That is the size of the concession made by the changes in estate duty of the past two years. I believe that in our present economic situation a way could have been found to take back the £150 million. By adopting these measures my right hon. Friend could possibly have raised another £500 million, not for the sake of raising money from people but for the sake of reducing the borrowing requirement by another £500 million.
My right hon. Friend inherited not only an appalling internal situation but one of the worst balance of payments situations in our history. The underlying deficit is probably £2,000 million and the oil deficit £2,000 million, making about £4,000 million. Therefore, I was somewhat disappointed to hear my right hon. Friend say that the deficit should be covered by direct monetary inflows.
I hope that my right hon. Friend has not fallen into the hands of those false prophets who believe that the balance of payments problem can be solved by borrowing and not by other means. It may be my puritanical, Nonconformist background, but I do not believe that we can solve our balance of payments and inflationary problems by borrowing vast sums in foreign money markets and from international institutions.
I am not saying that we could or should eschew all forms of borrowing. But we are now running a deficit of about £4,000 million and in the past three weeks we have borrowed about £4,000 million. That takes us on for one year. What about next year and the year after? We cannot go on borrowing every year to try to solve our deficit problem.
If my right hon. Friend was unable to introduce a form of direct controls over imports, will he consider introducing a form of import deposit system, which worked so well under the last Labour administration?
The balance of payments problem and the deficit in our borrowing requirement I believe to be at the heart of our
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inflationary troubles. If those matters are not dealt with, the crunch, when it comes, will be even worse, and the problem will take longer to solve.
My right hon. Friend has made a start. I hope, and know, that in the autumn he will take further steps which will reduce inflation, increase the distribution of wealth and put the country back on a firm financial and economic basis.
7.10 p.m.
Mr. John Stanley: One of the problems about finding one's way around the new constituency which I represent is that virtually none of the places is pronounced as it is spelt. I should be representing the new constituency of Tonbridge and Malling. In fact, I am proud and privileged to represent the constituency pronounced "Ton-bridge and Mauling". We have within our constituency delightful places such as Ightham, pronounced "Item", Wrotham, pronounced "Rootam", and Trottiscliffe, pronounced by some quirk "Trossley" I await with interest seeing how the reporters of the OFFICIAL REPORT manage to reproduce that passage. I convey my apologies to them in their place up aloft.
I also apologise to my predecessors in the constituency for the dismemberment of their previous constituencies by the Boundary Commission to bring my own into being. My constituency represents what was formerly the right-hand side of the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Sir J. Rodgers) united with the head and shoulders of the constituency of the former hon. Member for Tonbridge, Mr. Richard Hornby, now regrettably retired from the House. I take this opportunity of thanking my two predecessors in my new constituency for the exemplary service they have provided for my constituents over many years.
My constituents waited with great expectation for a passage in the Budget speech which never came. They were waiting in particular for the Chancellor's statement on the Channel Tunnel project. Regrettably, he chose to leave it to the Secretary of State for the Environment.
My constituents are deeply apprehensive about the project, with every good reason. We lie athwart the route of both the high-speed main railway line to the proposed Channel Tunnel terminal

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entrance and the main motorway to the terminal area.
I hope the Secretary of State for the Environment will bear in mind at least the following three matters before making his statement. I hope he will bear in mind, first, the total inadequacy and insensitivity of the supposed consultations which are taking place between British Rail and the local authorities about the route of the high-speed line. All that British Rail has done so far is to publish a large map showing a big black line running right across a large segment of the Kent countryside and going through a number of Kentish towns.
I shall hold up a copy of the map for the benefit of the Minister. If he could see it more closely he would see the line streaking—if I may use that word in a decorous sense any longer—through the town of Tonbridge. Underneath this thick black line there are many houses, not least in the town of Tonbridge itself. British Rail has been totally uninformative about its plans for the houses underneath the black line. I hope that the Secretary of State for the Environment will press on British Rail the need, as a matter of great urgency, to clarify what the line means in terms of housing loss along the line of the route.
Secondly, most of us in Kent are far from convinced about the need to incorporate a vehicle ferry service into the Channel Tunnel project. We are largely hostile in particular to the provision that there should be a lorry ferry service. That service will provide less than one-fifth of the revenue of the Channel Tunnel but will produce a substantial increase in lorry traffic passing through the county. We in Kent are deeply sceptical about the proposal, and in my constituency we are very hostile to the incorporation of any form of lorry ferry service, in particular, into the project.
I should be grateful if the Financial Secretary would pass the third point on to his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services, as it originates with her. When the right hon. Lady was in a previous incarnation as the Minister of Transport—of which we all have vivid memories—she undertook to the road haulage interests that the Channel Tunnel would be operated on the basis that there would be no discrimination between road
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and rail, and that provision has been incorporated into a treaty concluded between the British and French Governments. I hope that the Government, in reviewing the project, will also review the treaty and that provision in it, because most of us in Kent believe that there should be positive discrimination in the operation of the tunnel facility—if it is ever built—in favour of rail, particularly where freight is concerned.
I now turn to less parochial features of the Budget. The Chancellor has said that he will concentrate above all else on protecting the most vulnerable. I am sure that that is an objective with which we would all be in sympathy and would all applaud. The right hon. Gentleman has identified three priorities—food, housing and pensions. Indeed, he has provided armour for the British people in these three areas. He has asked the British people to nut on the helmet of higher pensions, admittedly strapped with higher national insurance contributions; to put on the breastplate of empty speculatively built houses to be purchased by local authorities; and to take up the shield of food subsidies, which predominantly, appear to be represented by a penny off the "pinta".
The House wishes to see how pertinent is the armoury that has been provided. Let me consider pensions first. Both sides of the House welcome the announcement to increase the level of pensions for existing pensioners. I hope that we are moving rapidly towards a situation—it has already been reached in the care of the handicapped—in which pensions move out of politics—except perhaps at election time. I am sure that there will be no suggestions or symptoms of sour grapes from the Opposition that the pension increase will operate two months before we should have made an increase. Equally I am sure that the Government will not be self-righteous about the fact that they have increased pensions now, particularly as their record when previously in Government was outstripped by that of the Conservative administration.
The truth is that successive Governments, of whichever party, have continuously been improving on previous records. As the previous administration improved on the record of the preceding Labour administration, so no doubt the

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Government will make a further improvement, and we ourselves will shortly be making an even further improvement on what they do.
We have in the post-war period made a steady advance in pension provision. Two major legislative landmarks have been made. The first was the National Insurance Act 1946, which made vast social advances by making pensions available for those at or near retirement age. The second, and equally important, was the Social Security Act 1973, which, for the first time, established on a sound, stable financial footing the provision of pensions for those working now.
I am disappointed in the extreme to hear the right hon. Lady say that she is contemplating a partial unscrambling of the Social Security Act with the appearance of a White Paper, because the 1973 Act is of great social worth. If there is any attempt by the Government to go back to the type of legislation envisaged by Mr. Crossman when he was Secretary of State for Social Services I am sure that it will be bitterly resented by millions of those who have accumulated pension rights, and particularly by millions of trade unionists and others who benefit from occupational pension schemes.
In housing, I confess to being struck with some wonder by the Chancellor's appearance as the fairy godmother of the speculative builders. That is what I suggest is represented by his proposal to make available an extra £200 million that will enable local authorities to buy speculatively-built homes that cannot immediately be sold. I wonder whether the implications of that policy have been fully thought through. Has it been considered whether it is equitable that the speculative house-building industry, having enjoyed substantial profits in 1972 and 1973 and now facing a somewhat leaner time this year, should rather than accept that, have the possibility of being bailed out at the taxpayers' expense?
Has it been thought through whether it is desirable to encourage developers to be put in a position in which, when they have completed a development, rather than try to sell those houses on the open market in the normal way, they will first see whether the soft option of
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selling to a local authority and retaining their profit margin is open to them. I think this proposal will produce a major reluctance on the part of big developers particularly to set about selling their houses to those young couples who want them
Thirdly, I wonder whether this same £200 million might not be better spent by investing it in the building society movement or by making it available in the form of local authority mortgages to enable young people to buy these houses, which, of course, is the very purpose for which they were first built.
We have two basic housing problems. We have the problem of providing houses for rent, for those who are homeless or for those who have not got the financial option of buying. We also have the second problem, which is the provision of houses for the great majority of young people who are trying to buy their own houses and whose ambition is to buy rather than to rent. I fear that in the Chancellor's housing statement in the Budget he has addressed himself exclusively to the first problem and ignored the second.
Finally, I come to the question of food, and I have to confess to the same degree of wonderment about that as in the matter of housing. I do not want to be drawn on to whether the Chancellor's decision to make £500 million available for food subsidies is right in principle, because one's maiden speech is supposed to be non-controversial, and I trust that I have been moderately non-controversial so far, but if £500 million is to be made available I wonder whether making it available for food subsidies—in particular, the enormous subsidy for milk—is the best way to advance the cause of the most vulnerable.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath) estimated that the cost of the milk subsidy would be £310 million, which is over 60 per cent. of the total amount of food subsidies to be made available. I understand that figure is made up of £130 million—the subsidy involved in reducing the "pinta" by a penny—plus the £180 million which would be necessary just to maintain milk at its present price.
If one went into the streets and found six people in the category that we are

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talking about amongst the most vulnerable, I wonder whether, if they were given an option of stating which items they would like to see reduced in the household budget, they would choose milk. I suggest they would choose rates or rents or electricity or coal or fares or meat products such as sausages, bacon or joints. Those, I suggest, are of far greater concern to the people whom the Government are trying to help. I do not think that milk would feature in the first 10 items that people would wish to have reduced. This is an extremely expensive subsidy, and it is wholly indiscriminate. I wonder whether it is right that every Member of this House should now be having a subsidy on his pint of milk.
Hon. Members opposite in their budgets have tended to produce a conjunction of three circumstances: first, higher taxation leading to a reduction in net earnings; secondly, inevitably as a result of that, they have produced restrictions of choice. In previous Budgets they have usually managed to combine those two unsatisfactory features with keeping down key and necessary items in the household budget. In this Budget they have not merely restricted people's net earnings and restricted their choice. At the same time they have managed to ensure major increases in a number of key items in the household budget. This is a unique and unhappy recipe for any budget. The dish that has been concocted —although satisfactory for one group namely, the pensioners—will not be satisfactory for the great bulk of the British people the longer they have to digest it.
7.25 p.m.
Mr. George Gardiner: It is with particular pleasure that I follow my hon. Friend the Member for Ton-bridge and Mailing (Mr. Stanley). It is clear from his speech that many of the problems that afflict his own constituents in Kent are those which are felt in my part of Surrey.
I should start my first speech to this House by explaining that the seat I represent is rather different from that which bore the same name in the last Parliament. The new Reigate constituency is made up of two parts. One is the old borough of Reigate, previously represented by my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey. East (Sir
710
G. Howe), and the other part is the old urban district of Banstead, which was part of the former Carshalton constituency, represented by Captain Walter Elliot. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to Captain Elliot. The House will be well aware of his distinguished service to it, notably on the Chairmen's Panel. I might add that he served his constituents every bit as well as he served Parliament.
My constituency, like many others and like that of my hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling, is deeply concerned about the problems of modern transport and their impact on the environment. At this moment no fewer than two motorways are being carved through my constituency at considerable environmental cost.
However, the main local anxiety concerns air transport, because we lie just to the north of Gatwick. Frankly, we are amazed how many people cheerfully contemplate scrapping Maplin on environmental grounds, yet are prepared to accept the desecration of the Surrey green belt that would result from expanding Gatwick. The fear is not so much of aircraft noise—quieter aircraft may take care of that—as of the consequent expansion of road and rail communications to the airport, the increased population required to service it, and the safety risk from heavier air traffic over residential areas.
After my constituency, I should like to mention an institution here in the Palace of Westminster, to which I owe a great deal; namely, the Parliamentary Press Gallery and the corps of Lobby correspondents within it. I do not know whether I am the first Lobby correspondent serving daily newspapers to fall from grace from the Press Gallery straight on to the Floor of the House, but I am certainly the first to do so for many years. There is a healthy love-hate relationship here between the Press and politicians, but, of course, we co-habit the same building. In making this move I feel that I have simply rolled over to the other side of the bed.
So I join many Members of this House who are deeply aware of the contribution which the Press Gallery and its members play in the corporate life of Parliament. We recognise that they are almost as much political animals as we are. After

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all, if they were not, they would never work the hours here that they do. Whereas on some occasions we are able to slip away by pairing, there is no such thing as pairing in the Press Gallery.
From the Gallery one has watched many Budgets presented. One of the first I witnessed, Mr. Speaker, was your own so-called "lollipop Budget", which one might call "lollipop mark I". I witnessed many others, too. So it was with some excitement this year that one awaited what was built up as the "Robin Hood Budget"—taking from the rich and giving to the poor. Having heard it, I must say that the standards of marksmanship in Sherwood Forest are not what they were. Far from picking off the Sheriff of Nottingham, the Chancellor is reaching into the pockets of his retinue and foot servants. Little of the extra tax revenue in this Budget is being taken from the wealthy. Instead, as we always warned, the middle income earners will have to pay up, and, through indirect taxation, so will many ordinary working men and women.
I fear that the Chancellor's measures will have a very critical reception from income earners such as those who live in my constituency and many other parts of the South-East. In my years of serving regional newspapers here I have become keenly aware of the feeling of those in the regions—as expressed by their Members of Parliament—that they were not getting a fair share of new industrial and office development.
That is a sentiment with which I have great sympathy. But I ask the House to recognise that there are many people living in the South-East today who now feel that they are being made to carry an unfair burden. They earn salaries which would be regarded in other parts of the country as extremely good. But they live in a region of very high living costs, particularly for housing. To reach their place of work they have to buy season tickets which are constantly jumping in price. In Reigate, as in other parts of this region, there are families earning £3,500 to £4,000 per year who find it increasingly hard to afford an annual holiday. They are not the wealthy whom the Labour Party promised to tax in its election manifesto. Yet under
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this Budget they are being taxed as though they were.
Why have those people, whose taxable income falls between £4,500 and £5,000, been singled out for such heavy punishment? If they live in the South-East they cannot be called wealthy either. But now all these people find the burden of tax increases put upon them, plus higher pension contributions, plus 12½ per cent. on their season tickets to commute to work.
Though rents have been frozen, absolutely nothing has been done to stop mortgage interest rates rising still further. We gather that the Secretary of State for the Environment and the building societies are to have urgent talks about this problem. They had better come up with something, for, if mortgage rates go up to 13 per cent. as threatened, many families who have bought a home in the South-East over the past two years will no longer be able to afford it; yet they cannot sell their home and move elsewhere because they will not be able to recover a price comparable to that which they paid two years ago.
If that happens, Ministers will find that they are bankrupting not only firms but families too. If those owing their own homes are made to pay increased taxes and rates so that rents can be subsidised, while nothing is done to avert 13 per cent. mortgage interest rates, it will be the most unjust and discriminatory housing policy that has ever been operated.
These people in the professions, in middle management and in commerce are the very people whom we should be encouraging if our economy is to thrive. Instead, they are being squeezed into becoming a new category of poor. Many of them would be prepared to pay higher taxes for a genuine social purpose—to help those really in need or, for example, to provide the invalid cars we read of this week in the Sharp Report. But it will not wash to tell them now that they are being taxed to help the pensioners, for the bulk of that is being paid for from contributions. They know that two-thirds of the revenue from higher income tax this year is to go in food subsidies, across-the-board payments regardless of need, with no real social impact, making only a marginal difference to the average family's shopping bill.

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Budget Statements are, of course, big Parliamentary occasions, but sometimes I think that we do not treat them as big enough. We look over our shoulders for overseas confidence, and I certainly hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer continues to receive it. But a Budget should also engender confidence among our own people in their future. I must take issue, therefore, with those hon. Members on the Government benches, and with some on my own, who have poured scorn on the idea of making economic growth a prime objective of national policy.
My hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton, South-West (Mr. Budgen), in a most eloquent maiden speech, last night claimed that what the people of this country were voting against in 1970 and again in 1974 was inflation above all else. With great respect, I do not think that that is entirely true. I share the utter abhorrence of inflation felt by the hon. Member and, I am sure, by other hon. Members. I agree that a major test of this Budget is what it does to tackle it. At the same time, we must recognise that those living and working in a modern industrial society have a right to expect that society to produce improvements in their standards of living, in social provision for those in need and in the environment. Those improvements can come only from economic growth.
I do not believe that the electors have simply been turning on successive Governments and saying "Do nothing else but beat inflation". I think that the people expect political leaders to make possible the fruits of a modern industrial society, including an acceptable level of employment without stimulating dangerous inflation in the process.
I am convinced that much of the bitterness that we have witnessed in industrial relations in recent years springs directly from Britain's persistently low rate of growth since the last war. If we do not get a higher growth rate, I fear that industrial and social resentment will become increasingly deep and bitter. If this Budget fails to lay the basis for that growth by encouraging investment and instead fosters the notion that we can jog along on the kind of economic performance that we have averaged since the war, I believe that the Chancellor
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will have failed the British people in their greatest need.
7.37 p.m.
Mr. J. M. Craigen: I have the privilege of representing the new Maryhill constituency. At the last General Election Glasgow lost two seats as a result of overspill during the past few years, and all of the former Maryhill constituency is now represented in the new constituency. The former constituency was represented ably, diligently and conscientiously for nearly 30 years by Mr. William Hannan. I was not long in the House before I appreciated just how highly respected Mr. Hannan was among hon. Members and House officials.
This Budget is broadly acceptable to my constituents because we are realistic people. We realised that, whatever Budget was produced, it would be a harsh one. We are in a difficult economic situation. But my constituents consider that it is a fair Budget, too, because it tries to tackle some of the social injustices from which we have been suffering for many years.
I want to deal in a little depth with three main topics. In the election all political parties made great play of the plight of pensioners. Maryhill probably has a slightly higher than average proportion of pensioners. I therefore welcome the Government's firm commitment to raise pensions to the levels announced in my right hon. Friend the Chancellor's speech and the speed with which the increases are to come into effect. I welcome the increases in the age exemption limits and I am sure that they will be acceptable to many working pensioners.
We on the Government side have prided ourselves on the social contract that we have been able to achieve with the trade union movement. I believe, however, that we need something like a social contract for pensioners, because the problems do not relate simply to money matters for pensioners. Pensioners are concerned with many social problems, not least housing.
In welcoming the Chancellor's promise to stimulate house building, I hope that the Government will give increased attention to the need to provide additional accommodation for old people. I am constantly coming up against the problem of

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old people in properties totally inadequate in both condition and size. In the private sector one of our problems in Glasgow is that many properties are 75 to 100 years old and are in need of demolition. Even in the public sector there is the problem that the children of the family have left home and the old people are left on their own in over-sized accommodation.
I should like to say something about the position of young people in our society, particularly unemployed young people. Little was said about them in the General Election campaign. In my constituency many young people leave school with little or no hope of employment or have to take jobs not suitable for their long-term career prospects. Indeed, they do not consider the question of a career. For them it is enough just to find a job. We are spending millions of pounds on education and raising the expectations of young people, and at the end of the day they have no jobs to go to.
We should take very seriously the point made by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer about the need to use our manpower—and womanpower —more professionally than in the past. Many hon. Members are accountants or are in the world of finance. The rewards and social standing of people in finance have always seemed to me to be unduly high as against the rewards in personnel management or for those engaged in full-time trade union work who are dealing essentially with people. We must take a fresh look at the social balance sheet and decide what matters most. Is it money or is it the people who make up a factory at management and shop floor levels?
Scotland will welcome the Chancellor's intention to continue the regional employment premium beyond September 1974. I should like to think that the Government might extend REP to the public sector. When I look at Scottish industry, it seems that most of the new employment opportunities will have to be provided within the public sector. Only the other day on the Adjournment the House debated the closure of the Scottish Daily Express in the private sector. When I consider Scotland's future, I think that the new employment opportunities will have to come increasingly from public sector investment.
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I hope that the Government will initiate an inquiry into the social costs of centralisation in Britain. The hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Gardiner) dealt at some length with the problems facing people in the South-East. If I may say so, as a visitor to the South-East I readily recognise the difficulties facing people here—high land prices, the problem of finding accommodation, of finding people to work in the social services and so on.
I am concerned also at the demands for increased London weighting. It highlights the problem of centralisation. In the United Kingdom, and in some countries within the European Economic Community, the trend towards centralisation probably has a high inflationary influence. In other words, it helps to push up the cost of living. I should welcome an inquiry into the social costs of centralisation in the United Kingdom.
We have had 40 years of regional policies in Britain. Originally we called it help to the distressed areas. Now we call them development areas. Essentially, however, it has always been ambulance work to bail out the areas where opportunities were limited and which people were having to leave in search of opportunity elsewhere.
I for one welcome the Government's intention not to spend another penny on the Maplin development. I hope that the Channel Tunnel also will prove a nonstarter. Commitment to those two projects would be like adding petrol to the flames of centralisation. I hope that the Government will take a firm line on the problems of the South-East.
I should have welcomed a firmer statement from the Chancellor of the Exchequer about his intentions regarding revenues from North Sea oil. I recognise the difficulties under which he was labouring. Indeed, one has to acknowledge the way in which he overcame those difficulties within three weeks in presenting us with the Budget this week. I look forward to hearing the Government's intentions regarding those oil revenues.
The Budget is an indication of a beginning towards social fairness in Britain. I hope that it will also be a start towards a better distribution of wealth and opportunity within the United Kingdom as a whole, because that can only help areas

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such as Glasgow and constituencies such as mine.
7.49 p.m.
Mr. Peter Hordern: I am honoured to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr. Gardiner) and the lion. Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mr. Craigen) at the conclusion of their most successful maiden speeches. The House has listened to them with considerable attention and real pleasure. I know that their constituents will appreciate the remarks they have made in the House today and will feel, quite rightly, that they have in my hon. Friend and the hon. Gentleman real champions for their constituencies. They have every reason to be proud of them and of their remarks.
I hope my hon. Friend will allow me to say that his remarks about Maplin pleased me considerably as I am a political neighbour. Equally, I hope that the hon. Member for Maryhill, who is against Maplin, will forgive me if I oppose his remarks.
My hon. Friend strayed in his uncontroversial remarks on to some points about the economy, and I did not agree with some of them. Nobody envies the Chancellor of the Exchequer his task. The objective of dealing with inflation is common to most European countries and remains, so far as one can judge, the main preoccupation of all Western European countries and their people. I guess that it is far more a primary cause of concern than other attractive objects of policy such as growth.
In Italy one sees Italians leaving the country, their suitcases bulging with lira. In West Germany the rate of inflation is proceeding to 10 per cent. and in France to 14 per cent. annually. It is no wonder that in this country the control of inflation is our primary concern.
During the election, members of the Labour Party said that if they became the Government they would be able to mitigate the problem of inflation to a large degree by food subsidies. They also suggested that the cost of those subsidies could be obtained from the rich. The expression used by the Chancellor was that the rich would be "howling with anguish". I have not heard any howls of anguish from the rich so far, though I
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dare say they will come. Everyone will observe that this is the most expensive Budget for every family in the land. No family will not soon feel the true weight of the extra taxation that the Budget has introduced. Herds are being reduced and farmers are selling cows for meat. Whatever milk subsidies are arranged by the Government and whatever help they give for the short term will be consumed before very long, whereas the extra taxes—lp on a pint of beer and 5p on a packet of cigarettes—will be of a lasting character.
It is a fact, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer said during his Budget speech, that the cost of food subsidies will be met by the extra cost of the duties on beer, tobacco and spirits. The Government must know that food subsidies, if they amount to only £500 million, will not last very long, and we have already seen the process at work.
The right hon. Lady the Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection announced the other day that there is to be a subsidy on bread, at a cost of £21 million, but because the cost of world wheat was not included in that calculation the bakers are to see the Secretary of State within the next six weeks. If the price of world wheat is covered by another subsidy, the total cost in a period of about two months will be about £70 million, not £20 million. That illustrates the difficulty facing the Government.
The same argument applies to milk subsidies. The number of dairy herds is being diminished because of the low return that farmers are getting for milk and because of the high price of animal feed.
It will be within the recollection of the House that some years ago M. Mendes-France was Prime Minister of France. He put forward a rather improbable programme to get himself reelected, suggesting that the French should drink less wine and more milk. As a political programme it was one of the shortest lived in recent history, and not much was heard of M. Mendes-France after that. I understand perfectly well that the Labour Party, with its food subsidies and the subsidy on the price of milk, is trying to reach a form of social contract. I suggest, however, that when trade unionists consider whether to cooperate with that social contract they

719
will have very much in mind the extra burdens on the price of beer and tobacco and may well neglect the help which they have received for their families through the subsidy on milk, if, indeed, that subsidy lasts very long. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Carr) said yesterday, it would have been much better if these subsidies had been applied to the families who really needed them, through family allowances or by raising the tax threshold.
In his Budget judgment, the Chancellor had to decide how to keep a balance between the need to control inflation and the need to avoid unemployment—a very difficult balance to preserve and one which, in my view, involves a question of confidence both at home and abroad. Confidence at home requires a prospect at least of higher profits. Hon. Members on the Government side are well known for their antipathy towards higher profits, yet it is only the prospect of higher profits which can provide the prospect of higher investment and of higher wages. But, instead of that, we find in the Budget a higher corporation tax and, in particular, an addition to the advance corporation tax which will create severe difficulties for company cash flow.
The Chancellor said that profits had increased substantially last year. I think he said that profits increased by some 30 per cent. But if the element of stock appreciation is taken away, profits rose in fact last year by 15 per cent., much in line with the overall level of earnings. Far more important, however, is what the level of profits is likely to be this year. In all probability the level of profits will decline, and it will be on this lower level that the advance corporation tax and the higher rate of corporation tax will have to be found.
Moreover, even the 15 per cent. increase in company profits last year did not include any allowance for inflation accounting—that is to say, for the real cost of replacing plant and machinery, now so expensive as to be prohibitive for many companies.
Companies are finding that bank finance is very expensive. This is one of the problems they face. Now, in addition, there is the arbitrary intervention of
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the Price Commission. With the activities of the Price Commission, there is no possibility of their knowing when they may be called upon to reduce their gross profit margins, and that offers very little incentive to improve gross profit margins by cutting out waste and unnecessary costs.
There is, therefore, precious little incentive for companies to improve their efficiency. In addition they are having to pay a higher insurance contribution for their employees, and they have to meet higher steel, electricity and oil prices, all of which must be passed on.
One of the problems which the Government have to face is that companies throughout the country have been running down their stocks in recent months. They are, in relation to production, at their lowest level for 10 years. It is certain, therefore, that companies will be stocking up and that a great deal of money will be tied up in this way. They will probably, in addition, have to face higher wage demands, which is bound to result in many people being laid off and, in consequence, a higher rate of unemployment.
Will the Budget do anything for confidence abroad, apart from confidence at home? I think that this is doubtful. I think that it is mean and vindictive to increase stamp duty by 1 per cent., and this decision needs looking at very carefully. I am certain that it will result in the loss of a substantial sum of foreign invisible earnings and will not be worth doing.
What is most likely to concern foreign opinion is the size of the borrowing requirement of some £2,700 million. It is less than it was last year but is still very high by historic standards. It is essential that this large element of borrowing requirement should be met by genuine savings by the non-bank public and not simply by taking it from the banks and by printing money through the Government machine.
The difficulty is that the proposals for the higher taxation which the Chancellor outlined on Tuesday inevitably mean that it will have to come from private savings and a good part of it will come from savings in gilt-edged securities, the very element which the Government ought now to be trying to encourage by every

721
means at their disposal, particularly as we have today seen the gilt-edged market at its lowest level ever. There is a stock called the 2½ per cent. Consolidated Stock which has been around since 1752 and it stands today at 17⅜, which is its lowest level ever. There is already real danger of collapse of confidence in the very short time the Government have been in office, and it will not do for them to suggest vindictive measures which will damage confidence at home.
One other difficulty is that it is a question not simply of the position of the Government to be able to borrow at all but of the total cost of their borrowings in recent times. The Budget estimate of the interest burden on Government securities last year was just under £2,000 million. In one year the estimate has gone up to £2,560 million. In one year the burden of debt interest has gone up by over £500 million—no small figure.
The difficulty is that this is not the only element of borrowing requirement—that is to say, deficit financing—in which the Government are involved. Although there are to be considerable increases in the prices of nationalised industries, they will still nothing like cover the costs of their operations. The electricity industry wanted a price increase of some 50 per cent. but is getting, in August, 30 per cent. The steel industry wanted a 30 per cent. increase and is getting 25 per cent. The gas industry needs £30 million and is getting nothing. There is, therefore, a large deficit, even on the domestic account, of the nationalised industries which will require to be borrowed through the general borrowing requirement.
But, of course, this does not cover the cost of financing the nationalised industries' capital programme, much of which will be borrowed overseas with foreign currency. Altogether £730 million was borrowed abroad last year and it seems that there will be another £540 million this year. It is doubtful whether this policy is desirable. The interest has to be paid in the currencies of other countries, which has so far proved very expensive and is likely so to continue. In present market conditions it is surely not right to continue to borrow at that sort of rate, and everything must be done to make the nationalised industries more independent and more economically viable.
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A difficulty also is that as the nationalised industries' prices rise, the threshold agreement in the phase 3 policy is bound to be reached fairly soon. This is the difficulty. A threshold agreement which will allow wages to become higher will, of course, be reached at the very time when those wages will be acting on small supplies of stock, and that in itself is fairly certain to increase prices considerably.
I think that a permanent policy for prices and incomes of which a threshold agreement forms part needs careful reexamination. The objection that can surely be made to it is that no such policy can ever work in containing inflation if it is used on its own in isolation. If a determined and appropriate monetary and fiscal policy is not used, and if total reliance is placed on controlling inflation by law, this can work for a time, as was demonstrated by phases 1 and 2, but the very nature of a permanent policy for prices and incomes will sooner or later trigger defiance by a group of workers.
It makes even less sense to have a policy of controlling prices but not of controlling incomes. That is a recipe for disaster. I do not think we can for ever go down the road of a permanent policy of statutory control of prices and incomes, paying more here and subsidising through costs there. If we do this, militants in the trade unions are bound to be helped because the full consequence of their actions is not brought home directly to the general public, since the cost of those actions is disguised by subsidies. If the economy is to be run intelligibly, if we are serious in what we say about controlling inflation, we must employ an appropriate monetary and fiscal policy and at the same time depend less on subsidy—that debilitating drug to economic systems.
The people will be bemused by the Budget. They were told that it was to be tough, but they were also told that it would fall on the broadest shoulders. I suppose we can comfort ourselves with the reflection that we are all broad-shouldered now because we are all having to bear the burden. Labour supporters have relied on the Chancellor to soak the rich and on the Secretary of State for Employment to hand out the money. Now, they find that they are handing out money themselves and the Secretary of State is empty-handed. It is difficult to know

723
which will come first, the resignation of the Secretary of State or another General Election. As soon as the Secretary of State has to say "No", that will be the time for him to go. Whichever it is, the people know that they have been hoodwinked by the Government and they will not forget it. We are in far too serious a state of affairs for a Labour Government to handle, and this will soon become apparent at home and abroad.
Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. George Thomas): Order. Before I call the next speaker, I appeal to hon. Members to exercise self-discipline, otherwise a number of hon. Members who have been waiting a long time to speak will not be called.
8.8 p.m.
Mr. Bruce Douglas-Mann: I, too, congratulate the three maiden speakers who preceded the hon. Member for Horsham (Mr. Hordern). If it is not presumptuous for me to say so, their standard was such that I think that many hon. Members who have been in the House a long time would envy them.
I draw the attention of the hon. Member for Tonbridge and Mailing (Mr. Stanley) to the fact that the "pinta milk" is not the traditional "pinta" of hon. Members. While milk is to be subsidised for all of us, effectively the cost is to be met from additional taxes on alcohol and tobacco, and it is difficult for the Opposition to argue that it is contrary to any desirable social standard to subsidise the milk of families at the expense of alcohol and tobacco.
This for me is almost the occasion of a second maiden speech, as I am speaking for the first time for the new constituency of Mitcham and Morden. On behalf of my constituents I should like to pay tribute to my two predecessors, both of whom would have been serious losses if they had not returned to the House in different constituencies, the right hon. Member for Carshalton (Mr. Carr) and the hon. Member for Plymouth, Drake (Miss Fookes). Both of them are highly regarded in the constituency. It is a great pleasure for me to be a Labour Member returned for a constituency
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formed from two previously Conservative constituencies.
This constituency also suffers, as does the constituency of the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Gardiner), from the projected M23 which is to be driven through it. I trust it will be one of the early measures of this Government to decide that the priority which has been given to the road programme should be altered when assessing future policy.
In moving from Notting Hill to Mitcham and Morden I had expected to find that I was getting out of the area of acute housing stress. It is true that I am finding fewer evictions, but I am still finding intense housing stress, despite the fact that the Labour council there is doing its best to diminish and alleviate it. It cannot find additional land on which to build, and consequently the only way in which it can acquire additional housing is by buying up existing houses.
This brings me to the first of the three points I wish to make on the Budget proposals. It relates to the provision of funds for the acquisition of housing. In the Chancellor's Budget speech he referred to £200 million which is being made available for additional housing purposes. Of that, £70 million goes for further subsidies resulting from the freeze in rents, leaving £130 million for the acquisition of houses. I welcome the fact that there is to be this sum, but at £10,000 a house, which is a conservative figure in the South-East, it would amount to only 13,000 houses. That would not go a very long way in meeting the problem.
The Chancellor also said:
"We have made clear our belief that, particularly in the worst areas of stress, the development of municipal ownership is essential. But this programme cannot have quite so high a priority as the steps I have already described."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th March 1974; Vol. 871, c. 299.]
I do not accept that. The decision by the Chancellor that he cannot proceed with the acquisition of existing houses at the rate he and we would wish is based on a fallacy. I urge the Government as quickly as possible to establish a new Government housing gilt-edged stock, and, when housing is acquired—existing let housing—such stock carrying an income equivalent to the fair rent for that housing should be issued

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as compensation. I am referring particularly to houses already let or those which were let on last occupation.
If this is done the State will be acquiring an income-producing asset. In exchange it will be delivering another income-producing asset. I appreciate that at present we treat in the same category public sector borrowing, which is borrowing for purposes involving a reallocation of resources, and borrowing which is merely to finance transfers. I urge the Treasury to adopt a different form of accounting procedure to draw a distinction between borrowing which involves allocation of resources, as new house building necessarily does, unfortunately, and borrowing which is merely exchanging one income-producing asset for another, which is the case when let housing is being acquired. Such housing is regarded by its existing owner as an investment. It would be replaced by another investment which would bring in a comparable income. At the same time, transfers of this kind would enable us to bring in the 100,000 houses standing empty in London and hundreds of thousands more elsewhere, which would ensure that we do not have the continuing threat of increasing homelessness which now prevails throughout the country, most intensely in major cities.
I have briefly summarised the argument set out in much greater detail in the Fabian Society pamphlet "The end of the private landlord" prepared by the Society of Labour Lawyers. I would urge that the Government should study this, particularly the sections dealing with compensation. I strongly believe that this is one of the most essential social measures that can be taken quickly to alleviate housing hardship.
Secondly, I urge the Government to try to set up a stabilisation fund with the building societies as quickly as possible. The alternation of surplus and famine in mortgage finance has been substantially responsible for the great rate at which housing and property prices have risen. The flood when supply is fixed necessarily drives up the prices but the famine also drives up prices because building firms cannot maintain a stable work force when they do not know whether they can sell their houses. Although I greatly welcome the proposals contained in the
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Budget likely to assist in that respect, they will not go far enough.
It would have been much easier to have set up a stabilisation fund when the building societies were in surplus as they were in 1972 and as was urged on the then Government. The financial institutions should now be required by law to deposit a certain proportion of their funds with the building societies or the Housing Corporation to ensure that there is a steady and stable flow of mortgage funds. In times of plenty the requirements on the financial institutions could be cut down, but, in general, there should be this requirement.
Thirdly, I urge the Government to consider tax measures discussed in the Labour Party document "The Politics of the Environment", particularly the proposals for taxes to prevent unnecessary waste in our throw-away society. I have in mind taxes such as the time-graded car tax, the resources tax and other measures to discourage the waste of resources in a world where resources are undoubtedly finite even if they perhaps exist in quantities greater than some doom watchers have contended. We cannot continue to waste resources in the way we are doing.
I respond to your appeal, Mr. Deputy Speaker, by limiting my remarks to these three points. I hope the fact that I have spoken briefly will not cause either the Minister to neglect to deal with them or, even more important, his civil servants to forget to consider them later.
8.18 p.m.
Mr. Tim Renton: I thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for calling me at this late stage in today's debate. We, the maidens, have today been rather like the cygnets in Swan Lake, each waiting in the wings to do our solo turn. I must request the indulgence of the House in asking hon. Members to listen to yet another maiden speech.
The new Mid-Sussex Division for which I have the honour to be the first Member represents the western halves of both the Lewes and the East Grinstead constituencies. Apart from a mental aberration in 1906 when a Liberal Member was returned to Parliament with a small majority of 262, East Grinstead

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electors have been consistent in returning a Conservative Member.
I wish to pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for East Grinstead (Mr. Smith), who has represented the constituency since 1965. He was in the Conservative Government a hard-working and assiduous Minister. He is well-known and liked by his constituents, and two days ago he piloted the Ashdown Forest Bill, against stiff opposition, through its Second Reading in the House.
The Beamishes, father and son, represented the Lewes constituency for nearly half a century—a remarkable record. My hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Mr. Rathbone), in a felicitous maiden speech two nights ago, paid a warm tribute to Colonel Sir Tufton Beamish. Apart from his hard work in the House, on committees and in the European Parliament Sir Tufton Beamish was greatly loved and respected by his constituents. He never failed in his devotion to their affairs, and when canvassing part of his constituency which I now represent I have heard many tributes paid to him by the many people whom he has helped over many years.
The Mid-Sussex constituency represents in microcosm South-East England. We have rural areas, farms, unspoilt villages, beautiful landscape, particularly the forest ridges to the north, and the South Downs on the border of the constituency. We have commuter towns, notably Haywards Heath, that came into existence towards the of the last century as a result of the opening of the London to Brighton line. To the south of Haywards Heath there is the rapidly growing town of Burgess Hill, with its thriving civic centre and industrial estate and a rapidly growing population.
Although one might think of Mid-Sussex as a part of the Garden of Eden in the South-East, it must be pointed out that we in our area have a major problem. It stems from the fact that in 1970 in the Strategic Report for the South-East we were labelled a "major growth area". This means that in the Crawley-Gatwick region—which is also represented by my hon. Friend the Member for Horsham and Crawley (Mr. Hordern) —our population is expected to grow between 1971 and the end of the century
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by 250,000 people—in other words, from 400,000 to 650,000. Already, because of this population growth, there is considerable pressure on the supporting services —roads, railways, schools and hospital facilities. In the last few years it has been difficult for young doctors and young teachers coming to the area to buy houses at a price which they can afford. In addition to this major growth label, we have Gatwick on our western border. In planning a population growth of 250,000, the planners allowed for the fact that the number of passengers moving from Gatwick would increase five-fold—from 6 million last year to 30 million by 1990. This was allowed for although, in addition, there is a considerable noise shadow arising from Gatwick which affects some of my constituents considerably.
In an independent report produced some years ago it was stated that in regard to population adversely affected by air transport movement Gatwick was less acceptable than three out of the four Roskill Third London airport sites.
Now, in the last few days, we have heard from the Secretary of State for the Environment and from the Secretary of State for Trade that the whole Maplin project is to be put under close scrutiny, as is required by Parliament. The hon. Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mr. Craigen), in an eloquent maiden speech a few moments ago, stated that he believed the whole Maplin project should be scrapped.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget speech said that no further money would be allocated to Maplin. I should like the Government to pause for a moment while they look at Maplin. If one of the solutions is to be the building of a second runway at Gatwick, this will mean not only a great increase in the noise problem but a substantial increase in population growth. The population growth, instead of amounting to 250,000, would then, it is estimated, be 430,000 in the Crawley-Gatwick sub-regional area. That means, in effect, a doubling of the population in just over a generation. The housing problem, the pressure on amenities and other factors would become very much worse as a result. Let the Government not consider the option of a second runway at Gatwick without considering the serious

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problems indeed that will be caused in Sussex and the areas surrounding Gatwick.
Sir G. Howe: And in Surrey, too.
Mr. Renton: Yes, and Surrey too.
For many centuries we have been happy to consider ourselves as living in
"This fortress built by Nature for herself…
This little world
This precious stone set in the silver sea."
But let not our insularity blind us to the fact that, as a major trading nation, we need to develop the best modern airport and seaport facilities.
I was pleased to hear the Secretary of State for Social Services yesterday announce that attendance allowances were being substantially increased. I know from many of my constituents how useful they have found attendance allowances, particularly for the mentally retarded child or adult who cannot be left alone. In past days, such handicapped people would have had to be placed in hospital but, thanks to the attendance allowance, they can now often be kept at home. The constant attendance allowance was first introduced by the Conservative Government. I am pleased to see that it is being increased, but I would urge the Secretary of State for Social Services to look closely and urgently at the eligibility criteria for attendance allowances and for disability allowances as well. I believe that there are a number of categories of people—for example, the injured young mother with children or those born crippled—for whom the present criteria are a little too harsh. I believe that my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph) had in mind a study for easing the eligibility criteria. I hope that the Secretary of State will proceed with such a study with some speed.
I want finally to comment on a matter which the Chancellor of the Exchequer raised in his Budget Statement. He spoke about the dizzy rise in commodity prices, including oil, and he looked forward to a possible flattening or even decline in commodity prices during the course of this year. In the past six months we have all been looking for peaks in commodity prices, and we have been disappointed. It is possible that, because of the substantial fall-off in car production in the United States and in Germany over
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past months, we shall now see declines in the prices of non-ferrous metals. But, as someone who over past years has worked on the commodity markets, I believe that the rôle of the speculator, though much attention has been given to him, in causing these price rises has been exaggerated greatly.
If statistics can be made available, I believe that it will be found that, although the speculator has in some cases caused price rises to happen slightly more quickly than otherwise might have been the case, the amount of positions taken up by non-trade accounts, even in recent hectic months, has been kept within very reasonable levels.
It has been suggested that a Royal Commission should examine the commodity markets. I do not think that they have anything to fear from this idea. I believe that they would welcome it, although I cannot say that I think that it would be a suitable instrument. Some years ago the present Prime Minister said that Royal Commissions took years to produce minutes. I urge, rather, the Government to ask each commodity market to look at itself for disciplining purposes. If contracts are anachronistic and out of date and if the differential between one grade of commodity and another is no longer valid, these matters can be put right very quickly by the commodity markets themselves. Equally, margins can be tightened, and clearing house procedures can be improved. These are steps for further disciplines within the commodity markets which could, and should, be taken quickly, and I think that they would be welcomed.
As I say, the rôle of the speculator has been exaggerated. The real cause of the rise in commodity prices has been the fact that for nearly a generation since the Korean war we enjoyed the benefit of very stable commodity prices which did not keep up with inflation. In the past two years, with the rapidly increasing pace of inflation and a distrust of currencies, commodity prices have soared.
It is noticeable that CIPEC, the organisation of some of the major copper producing countries, showed in its most recent report that, by deflating the sterling price of copper for inflation as reflected in the United Kingdom manufactured goods wholesale price index, the

731
price of copper, despite its very rapid rise, was actually lower on that deflated basis by some £100 per ton in the last quarter of 1973 than in the first quarter of 1966.
Thus it is the fact and the fear of inflation which has caused commodity prices to rise and is likely to cause them to remain at their present levels. I regret that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his Budget speech of two days ago, did not do nearly enough to still that fear of continuing inflation.
8.33 p.m.
Mr. David Stoddart: I must congratulate the hon. Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Renton) on his maiden speech. I listened to it with pleasure and with a great deal of interest, especially when he talked about the expansion which is to take place in his constituency. I represent Swindon, which has been an expanding town for a long time. I was glad to note that the hon. Gentleman understood the problems which face his area and which will face him. Having heard him I feel sure that he will deal with those problems with satisfaction to his constituents, and I can see that he will bring those problems to the attention of the Government in due time. I look forward to hearing his future contributions, as I shall look forward to hearing those of other maiden speakers who have intervened in this Budget debate. We seem to have an excellent crop of new Members, and the House will be all the better as a result.
I want also to congratulate my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on his Budget, which he had very little time to prepare. It is probably not realised that he had not about three weeks, but between seven and 10 days, in which to do it. It was a marathon task and he is to be congratulated on what he has produced. I welcome the Budget generally as being fair and certainly correct so far as it gives priority to the pensioners and to the long-term sick and disabled.
During the General Election campaign I found that people were expecting a tough Budget—make no mistake about it —because they knew at that time that, apart from the ravages caused by the three-day working week, the country had
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been slipping into massive insolvency both at home and abroad. In the light of the balance of payments deficit, both non-oil and oil, and the enormous net borrowing requirement stacked up by the previous administration, it is remarkable that the Budget is not a great deal harsher.
What worries me a great deal is the seemingly irresponsible attitude of the Opposition towards the Budget and to our economic and financial problems generally. It is disgraceful that Opposition Front Bench spokesmen should seek to make short-term political capital out of the country's long-term problems. They are particularly brazen about it. It ill becomes them at this stage to criticise an administration, only three weeks old, for their efforts to deal with the economic, financial and industrial chaos left to them by their predecessors.
During the last three years the former Chancellor of the Exchequer—unlike the political heavyweight Chancellor we have at present, the right hon. Gentleman has always been a political lightweight—played ducks and drakes with our economy and led the British people into a fool's paradise by convincing them that they could go on indefinitely living beyond their means. Of course that could not be. Inevitably Nemesis had to catch up. When the previous Chancellor saw it about to tap his shoulder, however, he persuaded his right hon. Friend who is now Leader of the Opposition to cut and run for it. Again, therefore, as in the past, the Labour Party is left with a catastrophic—I think that is the right word to use—situation and has to take the measures necessary to clear it up.
The Government have made a very good start. Indeed the measures proposed to reduce the net borrowing requirement during the next financial year seem to have had a beneficial effect, because on foreign exchanges the pound has already improved by no insignificant amount. This in itself shows that there is confidence abroad in the ability of the new Government to tackle the problems before us.
Furthermore, the reduction in the net borrowing requirement will have a beneficial effect on prices, because over the last four years, as the former right hon. Member for Wolverhampton, South-West, Mr. Powell, was for ever pointing out,

733
this net borrowing requirement, this printing of money, was pulling up prices and adding to world inflation and cost inflation at home.
I should have liked to see the cuts in public expenditure made by the previous Chancellor of the Exchequer restored, particularly those relating to education and health. But I understand—indeed, so will the country—that that is not possible at this time. However, I hope that those cuts will be restored as soon as possible and that the improvements in our public services, which are essential to good living, will be resumed.
Some of the measures in the Budget will hurt, and it is no use pretending otherwise. That which will hurt most is the steep rise in electricity prices, but this cannot by any stretch of the imagination be blamed on the present Chancellor or the present Government. As far back as 24th January 1973 Sir Peter Menzies, the Chairman of the Electricity Council, told the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries, of which I was then a member, that at the beginning of stage 1 of the prices and incomes policy domestic electricity prices needed to be increased by 25 per cent. But the then Government decided to make no progress towards correcting the disequilibrium which had come about. I warned at that time that the process of restoring the electricity industry to financial viability would be painful, and so it has proved.
The present Chancellor has had the courage to make a start and his decision, however much it might hurt in the short term, must be right for the long-term future of that industry. I hope that this will be a lesson for the future and that Governments will not again so tamper with our public industries as to bring them nearly to their financial knees and into public disrepute at the same time. The time has come to stop treating these industries as political footballs and to let them get on with the job that they were set up to do—to give a good service at reasonable cost to the general public.
Also, it is now essential to conserve energy. When fuel supplies are by no means secure, when they are costly and likely to become even more costly, it is not good business to charge below cost for energy supplies. In the months ahead my right hon. Friend the Chancellor
734
might like to consider whether advice and perhaps help can be given to householders about better insulation of their homes. This will save them money and the nation vital fuel resources.
The Government should also seriously consider import saving through recycling and preventing the waste of scarce raw materials. It is well known that every year 750,000 tons of steel scrap could be reclaimed if tin cans, many scattered on highways, byways and beauty spots, could be re-used. There is a world shortage of paper, yet every year probably millions of tons of paper are burned in local authority furnaces or ploughed into the ground. We can no longer afford such profligate waste of raw materials. This matter needs more attention than it has so far had.
Pensioners are delighted with the increase in pension rates and will be even more pleased to have had it confirmed today that heating and dietary allowances are also to be raised, and that prescription charges for retired women between the ages of 60 and 65 are to be abolished. I have consistently supported this object and indeed once nut down an Early-Day Motion on the subject. I am delighted that that nonsense has been swept away.
This is the best increase that pensioners have had, but it is essential that the purchasing power of the pension is not allowed to fall. That is why I welcome the assurance that pension rates will in future move in line with wage and salary movements.
Widows are often left in a difficult financial situation. They still have to pay the rates, the mortgage or the rent and the upkeep of the house. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor should at some time in the future consider the tax position of widows. I am sure that any assistance he could give them would be welcomed.
I look forward to the next Budget in about six months' time, I suppose, when I hope to see a further shift towards the five-year programme set out in the Labour manifesto. One of the things I expect to see, as does each of my colleagues in the Labour Party, is a further redistribution of wealth by a wealth tax. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Chancellor on the job he has done and I look forward to his future action.
8.45 p.m.
Mr. Michael Marshall: I am extremely grateful for the opportunity of speaking and it is with a keen sense of the fellowship we enjoy in this House that I rise to make my maiden speech. I pay tribute to the friendship extended not only from the Chair but also from right hon. and hon. Members in all parts of the House to new Members like myself. At no time is this perhaps more apparent than at the testing moment when a Member makes his maiden speech. I shall therefore have little difficulty in trying to make a non-controversial speech and I hope to carry the House with me in some of the thoughts I shall express.
My constituency has been carved out of the old Chichester and Arundel and Shoreham constituencies. My predecessors included the late Henry Kerby and Bill Loveys, who were well known to many hon. Members and are affectionately remembered. Subsequent Members include my right hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr. Chataway) and my hon. Friend the Member for Shoreham (Mr. Luce). It would perhaps be invidious of me to say too much about two sitting Members; my comments might be misconstrued. However, the examples they have set in the early assumption of ministerial and Whip's responsibilities are certainly worthy of emulation, although it is perhaps wise to remind myself that lightning rarely strikes thrice in Sussex.
The new Arundel constituency takes in a large slice of the Sussex coast, stretching from Pagham in the west to Ferring in the east. It includes Littlehampton, Bognor Regis and other seaside towns. To the north it lies along the foot of the Sussex Downs and it includes, of course, the mediaeval town of Arundel. While there are important light engineering industries and boat building in Bognor and Littlehampton, it is in three main areas that the industries of my constituency lie and, with permission, I shall give a brief account of them.
The first main industry is horticulture. Along the coastal plain of Sussex there are orchards, market gardens and, above all, glasshouses. In the stretch of coast I have described there are about one-tenth of the glasshouses of the United
736
Kingdom. This area includes well-known mushroom growers, the country's largest tomato and flower nurseries and the leading glasshouse research institute in Britain.
Our second main industry is perhaps predictable, given the mild climate and sandy beaches which we enjoy. It is the holiday industry. In addition to Bognor Regis and Littlehampton and the other seaside resorts along our coast, we have a long tradition of attracting holidaymakers. Bognor Regis may have its Butlin's but, while I make no invidious comparison, perhaps the outstanding characteristic of the coastline is the quiet, unspoilt charm which brings holidaymakers back year after year. Some find the temptation to stay amongst us well nigh overwhelming.
This brings me to the third industry—the retirement industry. In my electorate of 83,000 people there are 38,000 aged over 65. Allowing for even a modest number of women over 65 and for widows, over half of the people in my constituency are retired. I do not know how one measures comparisons with other constituencies, but I suggest that this puts me high in the league of representing pensioners. I may be competing for a title in this respect with my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins).
As there are so many pensioners in my constituency it will not surprise the House that my view of the Budget is concerned with the way it affects pensioners. It has now been clearly shown that the main parties are agreed on at least the two major objectives of pension policy, the first being that the pensioner is the most important sector in our social security system. Secondly, we are all agreed that pensions should be kept ahead of rises in the cost of living. We are entitled to be proud of the work of the Conservative Government in this sector, but I am equally glad to welcome some of the Budget proposals made in this regard by the Labour Government. However, there is a great danger in debating on a competitive basis "who does what" for the pensioner.
I turn therefore to some of the principles which should underlie the thinking of all Governments regarding the pensioner. It has been said many times in the House that we are now all minority

737
parties. It is equally true that we shall all be pensioners—a salutary thought when we address ourselves to the subject. If I am attempting to review some of the basic principles, it is with a sense of trying to remove some of the remaining injustices and difficulties which many pensioners face.
I put three specific proposals to the Government. These proposals are primarily designed for the Secretary of State for Social Services and I hope that her colleagues will convey them to her. If in the concluding speech there are no specific assurances on my points, I hope that there will be at least agreement in principle.
First, I wish to urge consideration of the position of the reduced-rate pensioner. Many other hon. Members must have constituents like mine who accepted a reduced pension 10 years or more ago. At that time the difference between a reduced-rate pension and the ordinary flat-rate pension was in many cases marginal. Many people who had not sufficient stamps in the qualifying period looked at the difference and decided that the reduced pension was a reasonable settlement.
However, the problem is that there have since been steady increases in the absolute rate, as most recently evidenced in the Budget, while the reduced-rate pensioner has been getting only pro rata increases, and cases of hardship have resulted. Given that increases in pensions are supposed to reflect increases in the cost of living the full rate of increases in pensions should be granted to all pensioners, irrespective of starting point and irrespective of any modest private means.
That brings me to my second proposal. I add my voice to those on all sides of the House—the matter has been debated many times—who seek the abolition of the notorious earnings rule for pensioners. "Notorious" is the word, since if there is one subject which arouses anger and a feeling of injustice among my pensioners it is this rule, because of the thought that it discourages many of them from trying to maintain their independence. Many do not want to go on to supplementary benefit.
Whichever party is in power, the Government should try to find a way to help the elderly who seek to be thrifty and wish to look after themselves. I am glad that
738
the previous Conservative Government, and now the present Government, relaxed the earnings rule, but I urge the Government to commit themselves in principle, as my party has done, to the total abolition of the earnings rule.
I come finally to the question of longterm proposals for improving the lot of the pensioner. Here we should address our minds to the possibility of earlier retirement. The Government, as the largest employer, can lead the way. They can set the example. There is abundant medical evidence in support of earlier retirement. I believe that many of us take the view that in this day and age retirement at 60 would be equitable, given the new equal status of men and women.
It will be argued that the cost of retirement at 60 would be high; I believe that it has been estimated at about £750 million. That could be offset, however, by a progressive reduction in the form the benefit takes. We could have something like the Belgian system, with earlier retirement on phased scales of the total pension figure in that way moving towards the earlier retirement that I suggest.
It is very important that we take advantage of the new climate of opinion in which all sections of our community, particularly the trade union movement, are taking an increasing interest in the idea of earnings-related pensions and earlier retirement. As we move more and more into a service economy, so it is appropriate that that kind of provision should be made. In that way we may use the energies and talents of a rising labour force of both pre- and post-retirement ages.
I return to where I began, with one eye on the clock. As a spokesman for a largely retired constituency, I have tried to show that many right hon. and hon. Members could do worse than retire into my constituency. We have there an undertaker with a somewhat sombre sense of humour, as perhaps befits his profession. He is a formidable debater. His technique is very simple. He allows the argument to run its course and then, when he sees the other side pausing for breath, simply says "I've seen 'em come, I've seen 'em go, but I gets 'em all in the end."
We may not be so fortunate as to attract you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and other right hon. and hon. Members to

739
retire to my constituency, but I hope that I have been able to carry with me tonight the general sentiments of the House. If, beyond that, Mr. Deputy Speaker, you choose to retire to my constituency, you will receive a warm and friendly greeting, such as the House has extended to me tonight.
8.59 p.m.
Mr. Terence Higgins: A feature of the debate has been the fact that there have been no fewer than eight maiden speeches. Having listened to almost all the debate, except about 20 minutes. I feel that I can also say that its standard has been rarely equalled in Budget debates.
All Members who have made maiden speeches have paid tribute to their predecessors, but in some cases, because of the work of the Boundary Commission, they had no fewer than three predecessors. Therefore, I do not propose to comment on all their predecessors as well as on all their speeches. I shall try to do the latter. Some of the speeches were controversial, more controversial than used to be the custom, and some were not.
First, we heard the hon. Lady the Member for Coventry, South-West (Mrs. Wise), who represents a new constituency. She spoke with great fluency. She expressed a concern for the social services which we all share, and she widened her horizons to deal with multinational companies. We are perhaps a little disconcerted by the fact that she first condemned them and then asked for an inquiry into the facts. We shall none the less listen with interest to what she has to say in future.
Next we heard my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers), who has the privilege of representing a South Coast constituency—a privilege not to be lightly under estimated as far as Conservative majorities are concerned. He paid tribute to his predecessors. He made some perceptive comments on the Scottish temperament in relation to the development of North Sea oil. He took up a number of the points made by the hon. Lady the Member for Coventry, South-West. The House always welcomes hon. Members who are prepared to debate rather than make set speeches. Any new
740
Member who can achieve that has the congratulations of the House.
The hon. Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George) also paid tribute to some of his predecessors and referred to one to whom I should also like to pay tribute; namely the former Member for part of that constituency Sir Harry d'Avigdor-Goldsmid. I am sure I carry the whole House with me in saying that over the years he has made a major contribution to our Finance Bill and Budget debates. He will be greatly missed.
Many of the points made by the hon. Member in his speech would have been solved by the adoption of the tax credit scheme proposed by the Conservative Government for which the present Government do not propose to legislate.
My hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Mr. Stanley) spoke with feeling about the plans for the Channel Tunnel. He also referred to my hon. Friend the previous Member for Tonbridge, Mr. Hornby, who was regarded with great affection in the House.
My hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr. Gardiner) made some remarks about Gatwick Airport and mortgage rates. I share his views about the effect of Gatwick on the environment, not least perhaps as noise in Worthing may result from that development. My hon. Friend the Member for Reigate has the distinction that for a number of years he has been a member of the Press Gallery. Although we frequently lose hon. Members who go upstairs to another place, we rarely acquire a new Member who has descended to us from the "gods". We welcome his presence.
The hon. Member for Glasgow, Mary-hill (Mr. Craigen) appeared to be speaking without notes—something which the House always views with some envy, though I feel bound to say that I realised after some time that he had notes but one could not see that he was using them. If he comes to the Front Bench he will find that that is not possible to do. None the less, he spoke with great fluency.
My hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Renton) also referred to Gatwick Airport and survived an intervention, rather unprecedented perhaps, from my right hon. and learned Friend

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the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe), to the effect that it affected Surrey as well as Sussex. That is certainly so. My hon. Friend, who also dealt with commodity markets, made a perceptive speech.
Finally, the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Arundel (Mr. Marshall), adjoins mine. Ten years ago in my maiden speech I had the privilege of raising the question of the over-80s, as my constituency also has a pensions problem. I listened with great interest to the points which he made about the reduced rate pensioners. This is a point of which the House will have taken note.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ton-bridge and Malting put much stress on pronunciation. Perhaps I may make a remark which has been made before, which is none the less apposite, about a production of Mr. Noel Coward in the 1930s, when it was said that it was "Cavalcade pronounced success". We can say at the end of eight maiden speeches that it has indeed been a cavalcade, and it has indeed been a pronounced success.
I welcome the Chief Secretary to this debate and congratulate him on his appointment to his high office. We have heard him many times before in Finance Bill debates, on both sides of the House. He has not been well in the last few days. We are very glad to see him with us again, and we look forward to seeing him back on his feet, replying to the many points that have been made in the debate.
I shall ask a number of questions which, perhaps, could be more appropriately answered at a later stage, but there is one point I wish to raise now. There are reports in the evening paper to the effect that consultations have been proposed regarding the indirect tax changes and the price code, these consultations about amending the code having resulted from a requirement on the Treasury to consult representatives of those affected. It is suggested in the Press that the amount of notice given was very short. Some of the associations, it is reported, only received the letter in the morning asking them to attend a meeting at 11 o'clock. Consequently, it is said, very few of the 16 could attend, and they were unable to send adequate representatives.
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I shall be grateful to have the facts from the Chief Secretary. If the consultation has not been as effective and reasonable as it ought to have been, will he give an assurance that proper consultation will take place about this change with the various trade associations affected before a final decision is made and before any order is laid before the House?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer was rightly congratulated on the presentation of his Budget. Many of us thought him a reformed character, for his speech was markedly different from his presentations in opposition. Not infrequently, his technique was to make a statement which my hon. Friends did not believe. We would challenge him, and he would maintain that it was true. We would challenge him again, and finally he would agree that it was not true. Shortly afterwards, he would make another statement which was also untrue, well knowing that one could not go on interrupting him indefinitely. That was frequently his technique when in opposition.
I thought that the right hon. Gentleman had reformed in the course of his Budget speech, but yesterday he broke what is a golden rule for Chancellors—instead of just making his Budget Statement and then replying at the end of the debate, he interrupted other hon. Member's speeches. It is a mistake for Chancellors to do that, because he was challenged immediately on the figures. Despite his diversionary interruptions, it was clear that he did not know the facts.
That brings me to the economic forecasts, which are published in Table 4 of the Financial Statement. My right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton (Mr. Carr) pointed out that the table did not cover as long a period ahead as has been customary. In reply, the Chancellor of the Exchequer asked my right hon. Friend:
"Will the right hon. Gentleman not agree that the estimate made by the Conservative Government last year was wildly and absurdly inaccurate because in the first quarter of this year, owing to the unnecessary three-day week, there has been a fall in manufacturing products ".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th March 1974; Vol. 871, c. 483.]
Surely that cannot be taken as a satisfactory answer.
Ever since the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Stechford (Mr. Jenkins)

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first introduced these forecasts, the House has recognised that they were likely not to be perfect. Indeed, the House has always recognised, even in the absence of unexpected events such as those at the end of last year, that the forecasts would quite likely not be correct, except by chance. But that is no reason for not publishing the forecast.
The Opposition fully appreciate that there are real problems in making such forecasts, not least because the demands are largely determined, with various assumptions, about the supply side. Therefore, there are particular problems at present when it is to some extent the supply side which has been creating the problem with regard to fuel supplies and prices. There is scope for improving the forecast by the use of input-output techniques.
One's task at the Treasury is often made more difficult because forecasts are not always to hand when one needs to make decisions, because they are made only at certain stages of the year. But that is not true at this time of year. The Chancellor of the Exchequer must have the forecasts for the full period ahead, and there is no reason why he should not publish them. It is right that the House should demand to know what those figures are.
I have tabled a priority Written Question which is due for answer tomorrow, asking for the figures, and I believe that the right thing for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to do in these circumstances is to publish them. As I have said, the Opposition fully recognise the limitations, but one must ask—one only has to look at this year's table compared with last year's table to see what is missing, and perhaps the Chief Secretary would care to tell us—why it is that the figures have not been given. What is the Chancellor of the Exchequer afraid of?
I turn to another point which arises from the Budget Statement. The right hon. Gentleman was rather concerned with what one might call myth-making. I consider it important that myths should not be created, not least because the Chancellor may be deceived by his own myths.
There were two myths going round. One came from the Prime Minister when,
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during the debate on the Gracious Speech, he said:
"…growth was nothing like the Government's target during last summer and autumn." —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 12th March 1974; Vol. 870, c. 76.]
In other words, it would seem that demand was less than we expected.
On the other hand, the Chancellor, during his Budget speech on 26th March, seemed to be saying that the economy was overheated when he said:
"I must ensure that the pressure of demand in the economy does not get out of control, as it did towards the end of last year."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th March 1974; Vol. 871, c. 291.]
If the Chancellor were to study the previous reports of the National Institute of Economic Research—he rested his own case on a later report—he would find that that was not the general view taken by the institute. As I explained to the House some time ago, that was not the situation. But the Government cannot have it both ways. There cannot be a shortfall in demand and a contention that the economy is overheated at one and the same time.
Until the events after October last year, the reality was that the economy was largely on course, and, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale (Mr. Barber) said, the level of demand was easing off from a growth rate of approximately 5 per cent., which was mopping up excess capacity, to a level in line with the gross in productive potential. Be that as it may, our need now is to get back on the path of sustainable economic growth, taking into account what has happened as regards the supply and higher price of coal and oil.
The crucial question is: what is the present and future relationship between demand and productive capacity and future changes in demand and productive potential? The failure of the Chancellor to make the position clear on that matter is one reason why the House has understandably found difficulty in deciding whether particular measures are inflationary. The decision rests on the relationship between demand and capacity. The distinction between cost-push inflation and demand inflation is always important, particularly in considering events such as the oil price increase, which is demand deflationary but cost price inflationary, or particular tax

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changes which are also demand deflationary but cost price inflationary.
That brings me to the fashionable word of the day—"neutrality". There has been great talk on whether the Budget is neutral in demand terms. I am glad to see the Paymaster-General in his place, because I want to take up some of the points he made and say something about the concept of demand neutrality. I am always rather doubtful about some of the dictums of Bertrand de Juvenal, who was probably overstating the case when he said that politics in this country are rather quieter than in America because here people, stand for election whereas in America they run for office. His other dictum—to the effect that there are many ways of being different but only one way of being the same—is more plausible at first than at second sight.
There are many different ways of being neutral. One can put nothing in either side of the scales or a great deal. The result in some sense is still neutral. Therefore, even if one accepts the Chancellor's Budget judgment that this should be a neutral Budget in demand terms, none the less one has a choice how that neutrality is achieved. The Government have decided to go for food subsidies, on the one hand, and taxes to pay for food subsidies, on the other. Of course, one could have chosen to do more on both sides or neither.
As my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton pointed out yesterday, and my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East did again today, food subsidies—the principle applies, I believe, to the rent freeze as well—are an inefficient way of helping the weakest members of the community, because much of the benefit goes to those not in need. It requires a lot of money for there to be a comparatively small effect on the retail price index. Over the past couple of days there has been a lot of controversy as to precisely how the effect on the RPI is likely to work out as regards the balance of the Chancellor's measures. The Chancellor's statement said that the food subsidies, for example, will reduce the rise in the retail price index by about 1½ per cent. The Paymaster-General yesterday, speaking without a prepared brief, also said 1½ per cent. I suspect that that figure is the maximum effect likely. The Government
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admitted at the conclusion of last night's debate that the effect of the food subsidies is more than outweighed by the excise and value added tax increases, with the result that, on balance, there is an increase in the retail price index.
It is clear from the Chancellor's statements about having one hand tied behind his back by threshold agreements that he would have liked to raise the retail price index even more. However, as the debates have proceeded the true extent to which the Budget is likely to increase the retail price index is becoming more apparent. As my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said this afternoon during the Prime Minister's Questions, we believe that we are entitled to the full figures. With great respect to the Paymaster-General, they were not given last night, and, in particular, the right hon. Gentleman cut off his estimate of the effect on the RPI of the nationalised industries price increases at the end of the year. Clearly, some of them, for example the steel price increases, will still be working through by then.
I turn to two other matters raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Paymaster-General. First, he referred to the effect on the retail price index. He said:
"I think that on reflection the right hon. Gentleman will confess that the overall effect of the Budget on the retail price index is as favourable as it could be."
That, of course, is on the assumption that he is making the choice which the Chancellor made. As I have already pointed out, that is not necessary.
The second point made by the Paymaster-General was that the Budget had to be tough because of the economic situation, and he emphasised that a number of times during the course of his speech. The right hon. Gentleman said:
"To meet this crisis situation it is necessary that burdens should be borne."
He went on to say:
"If the first step often has to be an increase in taxes, it is an inevitable result of the situation which we inherit on taking office."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th March 1974; Vol. 871, c. 581–8.]
As I have already pointed out, there was a choice whether or not one did. The proposition put forward by the Paymaster-General reflects what the Chancellor of the Exchequer expressed back in

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December—and he apparently still holds the view—that the British people are in a masochistic mood and want to feel that they are suffering. Yet the Paymaster-General says that we are facing an energy crisis and the Budget must be tough; and then he says that we must have a neutral Budget.
The tax increases are the result of the choice the Government have made to increase expenditure. Far from helping to solve our economic crisis, particularly the problem of inflation, they are making the position worse.
I said earlier—I am sure that the House will agree—that it is important to distinguish between cost-push inflation and demand inflation. But I now have some difficulty in reconciling the Government's statements that the Budget is demand neutral and, as they now admit, price inflationary. It turns on their view of the level of excess capacity at present, the relationship between aggregate demand and unproductive potential.
Like my right hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton who opened the debate yesterday, I find it difficult to avoid the feeling that the Budget is, in truth, more deflationary than the Government will admit. I have difficulty also in following the Chancellor's argument about curtailing the money supply and his view of the demand management situation. Monetary and fiscal measures are, in many ways, two sides of the same coin.
I turn now to an issue that has had much publicity in the Press in the last few days and throughout the election campaign; that is, the question of the social contract which, it is said, the Budget is designed to foster. It appears to be a contract on which the Government pay by instalments. But, unlike on a hire-purchase contract, where one gets the goods and pays the instalments later, the Government are prepared to go on paying and paying without the goods being delivered. That is why the Opposition feel that there is need for a statutory prices and incomes policy at present. This need remains paramount, despite all its unattractive features.
Clearly, an effective voluntary prices and incomes policy is greatly to be desired, but it must not be confused with some temporary restraint by particular unions
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pending the next election. It is surely illusory to suppose that one can seal such a social contract with acts of petty spite such as those which have been included by the Chancellor in this Budget.
My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Solihull (Mr. Grieve) says that particular attention should be given to three of the Chancellor's measures. He cited the aggregation of children's incomes, the share option schemes and the Chancellor's attitude to them, and particularly a point made by a number of my hon. Friends, including my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Solihull, investment income of the elderly—and I stress the word "elderly". Under the proposals of my right hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale, the first tranche of this, up to £2,000, was charged at the earned income rates; the present Chancellor proposes to cut that to only £1,500. These are elderly people who have saved and are living on fixed incomes. They have suffered more than anyone from inflation, and they ought not to be clobbered in this way. Again, to suppose that doing this kind of thing is likely to produce results in terms of a social contract is illusory and, I believe, contrary to what the right hon. Gentleman professes, socially divisive.
I turn to the forecast figures in the Financial Statement. Why is the Chancellor afraid—I do not think that one can put it any other way—to publish these figures? The officially published figures have never included figures for money, wages and prices, for understandable reasons. But they do, of course, show how the Chancellor of the day and the Exchequer expect the real resources available to increase through time, and it is out of that overall increase that future increases in real incomes and, particularly, real wages are to be paid.
Therefore, I believe that we are entitled to ask, subject to all the qualifications that I have mentioned and that we accept, what the Chancellor thinks, as a result of his Budget, the increase in real incomes and gross domestic product will be in the first half of 1975, because this is very relevant to the position in the next pay round beginning in the autumn. We are entitled to ask for these figures to be given.

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Finally, I want to make one or two basic propositions to the Chancellor. The case which we have made repeatedly—it is a simple one—that Socialist Budgets increase taxation and Conservative Budgets reduce it, is proved once again by this Budget, and the fact of the matter is that the money necessary to finance plans of the kind put forward by the Government cannot he found, in the right hon. Gentleman's elegant phrase, by soaking the rich. We all know perfectly well that the measures hit the broad mass of taxpayers. This is what has happened on this occasion and is what we predicted would happen.
We also need to repeat once again that, even if one accepts the Chancellor's judgment that this is a neutral Budget in demand terms, there is still a choice as to how one achieves neutrality. We are threatened by the Chancellor with a second Budget later in the year. It is worth pointing out that the last time a Labour Government had two Budgets in a year, in 1968, they put up the taxes on tobacco, wine, spirits and petrol and increased purchase tax both in April and November. One Budget like this is enough, and I believe that the House and the country should be warned against proposals of the kind that the right hon. Gentleman has put forward.
9.30 p.m.
The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Joel Barnett): We have had a very interesting debate today, during which we have heard eight maiden speeches—rather a lot for one day's debate. They began with a remarkable maiden speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, South-West (Mrs. Wise), who spoke entirely without notes. I am sure that the House must have been impressed by her speech.
The hon. Member for Gosport (Mr. Viggers) showed us again that one learns something every day. We learnt from him that it is Portsmouth that is near Gosport rather than the other way round.
We then heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, South (Mr. George). I was delighted to hear his endorsement of the Budget—he is obviously a very intelligent new Member. He replaced Sir Harry d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, who was a very popular Member of this House. Sir Harry
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congratulated me on my maiden speech nearly 10 years ago, and his remarks were well received on that occasion too.
We then had a speech from the hon. Member for Tonbridge and Mailing (Mr. Stanley). I did not hear it but I am told by all who did that it was very good—controversial of course, but I do not think nowadays that a maiden speech is any of the worse for that. The sooner one gets started, the better. Then there was the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Gardiner). We have known him before from the Press Gallery, and perhaps the best I can say for him is that I hope his speech will be well reported.
My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Maryhill (Mr. Craigen) was another maiden speaker. He again replaces a well loved Member of the House, Willy Hannan, who many of us remember with a good deal of affection. The hon. Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Renton) talked about his constituency as the Garden of Eden. Knowing a little about Mid-Sussex I cannot help agreeing with him. It is a wonderful area, although the hon. Member told us that he had problems. Those of us representing built-up industrial areas might well think "Oh for such problems!"
Finally there was the hon. Member for Arundel (Mr. Marshall), who represents another delightful area that is not well known as a safe Labour seat. He told us that he has many pensioners in his area. Naturally, like his pensioner constituents, he will be highly delighted with what my right hon. Friend has done. He requested an earlier retirement age, and there are times in the Treasury when I would endorse his remarks in relation to our predecessors.
Mr. James Prior: The hon. Gentleman will be out before long.
Mr. Barnett: I was talking about my predecessors. I am sure that the House looks forward to hearing all those maiden speakers again soon. Their speeches were well worth listening to.
I turn to the speech of the hon. Member for Worthing (Mr. Higgins) and thank him sincerely for his good wishes. I much appreciated them because my speech tonight is my maiden speech as a Treasury Minister. He raised the question of representations made by the food manufacturers, the motor agents and many others.

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I can assure him that I shall be giving urgent consideration to those representations at the earliest possible moment. He will appreciate that it will probably have to wait until tomorrow morning.
Mr. Higgins: This was a reference to a report in the Press this afternoon about the tobacco, wine and spirit and beer traders and others who apparently did not have adequate consultation and notice over the question of amending the price code in relation to indirect tax changes. I hope the hon. Gentleman will give me the assurance that no decisions or orders will be made until that consultation has been held, with adequate preparation and notice.
Mr. Barnett: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the notification order relieving manufacturers of the need to pre-notify was made on Budget Day. I can also assure him that those who have not yet had the opportunity of making representations to us will be given that opportunity.
The hon. Member put many questions to me. He will realise that I have a great deal of ground to cover. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor has asked me to deal with much this evening. I hope that the hon. Member will not mind if I do not deal with all the questions he raised. I know that the Chancellor will be happy to deal with them on Monday evening. I am pleased to say that I won a bet concerning the hon. Member today. I said that he would talk about cost push and demand pull. He was reverting rightly and very well to his former days in Opposition. I am happy to see him settling down so well.
I want to say a word on defence. In conformity with our policy directed to maintaining a modern and effective defence system, while reducing its cost as a proportion of our national resources, we have set in hand a thorough-going review of our defence commitments and capabilities. Meanwhile we have already decided to make a further cut of £50 million, at 1973 prices, on defence expenditure for 1974–75, in addition to the £178 million announced by the previous administration in December. Taking into account all the cuts announced by the last Government last year, the total reduction on the previously planned
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defence programme for 1974–75 is about £300 million at 1973 prices.
I know that some of my hon. Friends would have liked us to go further. In carrying out our review, however, as my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer told the House on Tuesday, we shall be assessing how best to achieve the required balance between continuing to meet essential defence needs while securing a necessary reduction in the proportion of our resources we devote to defence. We shall be taking a very careful and systematic look at our commitments and capabilities, individually and as a whole, and consulting our allies wherever their interests are involved. Clearly we cannot do this in only three weeks of government, but we shall be pressing ahead with this review, and my right hon. Friend will be announcing the results later in the year.
I turn now to value added tax. My right hon. Friend mentioned in his Budget speech that we will be bringing forward orders to zero-rate for VAT essential aids for the disabled and certain protective clothing. There are already a wide range of reliefs from VAT for aids for the disabled. All aids supplied through the National Health Service are effectively outside the scope of the tax. In addition, all goods supplied by pharmaceutical chemists on a doctor's prescription are zero-rated. Then there are the wide powers for local authorities to supply aids to the disabled under the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act—the "Alf Morris Act" as so many of us remember it. Under the provisions of Section 15 of the 1972 Finance Act local authorities can reclaim all VAT paid on their purchases of such aids. Nevertheless there remain a number of distressing cases where VAT is applied to essential aids for the disabled. We feel it is only right to extend the VAT reliefs into these fields.
My right hon. Friend the Chancellor mentioned in his Budget speech kidney machines and invalid chairs. We also intend to zero-rate other items, such as electrically and mechanically adjustable beds specially designed for invalids, Nelson and similar combined knives and forks for use by one-armed persons, and domestic chair lifts and stair lifts for use with invalid chairs. These are all items

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for which the hon. Member for Worthing will know we have been pressing for many years.
Protective clothing is another field where we believe that relief is justified. Of course, where employers purchase protective clothing for their employees the VAT on the purchase is input tax, deductible subject to the normal conditions. But where employees purchase their own protective clothing, the tax burden at present falls on them. This is an anomaly which we intend to rectify.
Naturally we need to examine this whole question in some considerable detail, but I can assure the House that we shall do so as quickly as possible. I cannot say today exactly when the necessary order to zero-rate these goods will be laid, but the zero ratings will be effective at the latest by 1st June.
I should next like to refer briefly to Ways and Means Resolution No. 10. The need for this has arisen because a recent decision of the London VAT Tribunal has upset the arrangements for applying VAT to television rentals in cases where the rental agreement was made before 27th July 1972—that is, before the date of Royal Assent to the 1972 Finance Bill. These arrangements were discussed at some length in the debates on the Bill. The original proposals of the Conservative Government were amended during the debates, but I think that the intention of the Act as finally passed was quite clearly understood on both sides of the House.
The tribunal's judgment would create anomalies that were not intended. Although the Commissioners of Customs and Excise have appealed against the decision, we think it is desirable immediately to restate and put beyond doubt the position that was then intended. The forthcoming Finance Bill will therefore include a provision to that end, with effect from 1st April 1973, the date when VAT came into operation.
I come next to our predecessors' proposals for taxing land gains. Of course, the real way to stop huge profits on the sale of land is to take it into public ownership at its current use value, but this will have to wait for our Bill to reach the statute book. Until that time, we intend to make sure that gains are fully taxed. We still take the view that
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these proposals do not adequately deal with the whole problem of land and property taxation, but they partially deal with the problem and we have decided to adopt them with a number of modifications, at any rate as an interim measure. The Finance Bill will contain the necessary legislation.
There has, I know, been concern at the lapse of time between the announcement of the scheme and the publication of the detailed rules. I would have liked to have been able to tell the House that the proposed legislation could be published well in advance of the Finance Bill or at least to have been able to offer an explanatory statement on certain matters of detail. In the time available since the election, however, it has just not been possible to take the drafting of the legislation far enough, and I am afraid that I shall have to ask the House to be patient for a few more weeks when all the details can he considered in their full context. For the present, I shall confine my remarks to the necessary announcement of the rates to apply to development gains in certain special cases.
First on rates, there is clearly a need for a special rate for the trustees of discretionary and accumulation trusts, and we have decided that the rate should apply to all trustees—other than bare trustees—of settled property since development gains will frequently not be distributable even in the case of ordinary life trusts. The rate will be the same as that applicable to the income of discretionary trusts; that is, 45 per cent. for 1973–74 and 48 per cent. for 1974–75. If, of course, the gains are distributed, the beneficiary will be given credit for the tax paid by the trusts.
It is also right in our view to adopt a special rate for development gains of life assurance companies in so far as they are allocated to policy holders. The rate will be 37½ per cent. for both years; that is, the special so-called pegged rate which applies to the ordinary investment income so allocated.
On pension funds, we take the same view as our predecessors and think that to exempt them entirely would put them in an unduly favourable position in the property market in which they are already substantial investors. We propose, however, to charge their development gains

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at the 37½ per cent. rate I have just mentioned. I should like to add the assurance that this Government have no intention of restricting the funds' existing exemption in any other respect.
I deal now with the taxation of foreign income. I should first like to give the House some more details about the changes we propose regarding the taxation of foreign incomes and to which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor referred in his speech. Of course, not everyone with foreign income sought to exploit the remittance basis, but there is no doubt that it had developed into a major loophole for tax avoidance.
What the new position amounts to is this. The man who goes abroad to do a job will be assessed to tax on his earnings from the job whether he does this as a director or employee or on his own account or as a partner in a foreign partnership. Whether he keeps part of these earnings abroad or sends part of them back here will be of no significance for tax purposes. This is surely right. But the special considerations applying to incomes of this kind are to be recognised by the giving of an allowance in assessing the earnings to tax. This will take the form of a deduction of one-tenth from these earnings before they are charged to tax. In this way people will not be deterred from taking on foreign jobs, but they will at the same time pay their proper share of taxes here—their country of residence. This partial exemption will apply also to pensions arising abroad.
Mr. Peter Rees: What happens if the person going abroad genuinely has dual residence—in the country where he is doing the job and in this country where he has a house which is not disregarded? Will he be the subject of favourable treatment?
Mr. Barnett: That is a highly technical point, and I am sure that the House would prefer me to look into it later.
Where a man goes abroad to do a longterm job and therefore has to be away from this country for long periods at a time, we propose to be more generous than the existing law. This man is in a quite different position from the man who lives here and goes abroad to work for comparatively short spells. We propose that the earnings of the man who goes
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abroad to do a job for long continuous periods should be excepted altogether from the charge to tax. We believe that a continuous period of 12 months abroad is a fair and justifiable dividing line. Where a man has been away from the United Kingdom for this period, outright exemption on the earnings of the foreign job will be given. Unlike the rules governing what constitutes residence for tax purposes, the 12-months period will not be linked to the tax year.
This brings me on to the foreigner who lives here. The foreigner who works here for a British concern pays tax on his earnings here in the normal way. This is at is should be. But if he works here for a concern which is itself resident abroad, he is liable to tax on the remittance basis and this sometimes—too often, we have found—has the result that he pays very little tax here, sometimes none at all. This tax privilege is to go.
We recognise, however, that the foreigner who comes here to work for two or three years or so for the overseas company which employs him is not in quite the same position as the man whose connection with this country is more permanent. For example, his family may still be in his home country, he may be educating his children there and so on. We propose that he should be assessed to tax on one-half of his earnings. We think this a fair compromise between paying no tax at all at the one extreme and paying tax on his full earnings here at the other extreme.
What of the man who lives here year in, year out over a long period of time? His roots are now here and we think he should therefore pay tax here on his income, of whatever nature and wherever it arises, in the same way as the person who is domiciled and ordinarily resident here. This is what we propose for the tax year 1976–77 onwards. The Inland Revenue will look at his position to see whether he was ordinarily resident here for five out of the six preceding tax years. If he was, he will be treated for income tax and capital gains tax for that year as if he were a United Kingdom native and he will be charged to tax on the basis of his world income and capital gains.
We think that these proposals are fair to all those affected by them and to the

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country. Except for some minor categories of income, which I need not go into now, the remittance basis of taxation will disappear. It has become obsolete in this day and age of high-speed international travel and multinational companies, and its demise will be mourned only by those who have benefited from the tax privileges it conferred. We all know of the Lonrho case last year. The Leader of the Opposition should at least be pleased that we have removed one of the unpleasant and unacceptable faces of capitalism.
On age exemption, I should inform the House that there is to be an amendment to Ways and Means Resolution No. 13. We have recalculated the income limits and find that we can increase them from £700 to £810 instead of £785 in the case of a single man and from £1,000 to £1,170 instead of £1,130 in the case of a married couple. An amended resolution giving the higher figures will be tabled tonight.
I turn now to the wealth tax. In announcing his intention to publish a Green Paper about the annual wealth tax, my right hon. Friend made it clear that the Government are committed to the introduction of such a tax. The Green Paper will not therefore be directed towards discussion of whether this reform is desirable. We will have a wealth tax. But, because it will be a new departure in this country, we have decided that we can better frame this legislation if its introduction is preceded by public discussion of such questions as the starting point, the rates at which it should be levied on successive slices of total wealth, its relationship with other taxes and how the various administrative problems to which it will give rise can best be resolved. I cannot tell my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Mr. Marquand) whether there will be a Select Committee, but the point he made will be considered.
It should be understood by some of my hon. Friends, who were perhaps a little disappointed that the wealth tax was not introduced immediately, that the introduction of the capital transfer tax with effect from Budget Day will ensure that attempted transfers out of the tax net before the wealth tax begins to operate are likely to prove very costly.
Mr. Nicholas Ridley: At what rate will the
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capital transfer tax be levied? It seems extraordinary to give notice of a tax without saying how it is to be structured or what rates will be applied.
Mr. Barnett: I was just coming to precisely that point.
I should like to expand on what my right hon. Friend said in his Budget about the new tax on capital transfers. This will apply, subject to certain exemptions for small amounts, to all transmissions of wealth, whether made by way of gift during a person's lifetime or by way of property passing on his death, except that we shall wish to consider how far we might go in relieving transfers between husband and wife.
The rates and basic exemption limits for the new tax are matters to be fixed in the autumn. I should not wish now to be committed to any statement of what those limits should be. For immediate purposes, however, it may be taken that there will be exemption for gifts made in the period from Budget Day to a date to be fixed in the second Finance Bill on the lines now provided for estate duty. Any gift made in this period, which would not be chargeable to that duty if the donor died on the day after the gift was made, will be exempted from the new charge on gifts. But I would wish to make it quite clear that these limits will not necessarily apply later.
The charge will be at progressive rates charged on the cumulative total of gifts made during a person's lifetime with the further final cumulation of property passing on his death. The tax will be the primary liability of the donor or, after his death, his personal representatives and will, of course, apply to gifts he makes in settlement as well as other gifts. Moreover there will, in general, be a charge on all capital taken out of a settlement and on any change of beneficial interest in possession in a settlement, not only, as now, where linked to a death.
Trusts have in the past been widely used to avoid the present estate duty and the legislation will be designed to ensure that abuse is no longer possible. In particular we shall consider the possibility of imposing a periodic charge—say every 15 years—to tax on the capital of discretionary and accumulation trusts. The

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liability to pay the tax charged in respect of settlements will fall on the trustees in that capacity. I should perhaps make it clear that there will be no question of deferring payment of the new tax until death but we shall aim at reasonable arrangements for collection after gifts have been made.
Sir Geoffrey Howe: To return to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley), is not the hon. Gentleman purporting to give notice now of an intention to introduce in a conceivable further Budget this year a range of legislation covering a whole range of variable options as to scope, size, rate and everything else? Is not this something that the House should look at very critically, because it is a remarkable piece of prospective retrospective legislation?
Mr. Barnett: The right hon. and learned Gentleman will have an opportunity to look at it when the Finance Bill comes forward. It will be my right hon. Friend's second Budget and he will have many more to introduce. The House will have a chance to discuss it.
Mr. Peter Rees rose—
Mr. Barnett: No, I cannot give way. I have too much to deal with which the House will want to hear.
I should like now to turn to the disallowance of interest and my right hon. Friend's proposal to disallow income tax relief for interest payments on personal borrowing, except for certain purposes, and to limit excessive tax relief for mortgage interest. These proposals begin the process, to which we on this side of the House are pledged, of stamping out tax avoidance and reintroducing a sense of fairness into our tax system.
Of course, relief will still be given on mortgage interest. But no one can doubt that the time has come to impose a limit on the extent to which the Exchequer subsidises the better off. In the future only new loans taken out for the purpose of acquiring or improving the borrower's principal private residence will attract relief on the interest, and only then up to a loan of £25,000. Those who choose to occupy the topmost reaches of the property market will now be required
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to bear a larger share of the cost out of their own pocket. So too will those who choose to buy second homes. We believe that it is intolerable that the tax system should subsidise the purchase of second homes at a time when so many families find it impossible to get a home of their own at all. I am confident that my right hon. Friend will be applauded for this measure—but nowhere more so than in some of the remoter parts of these islands—[HON. MEMBERS: "Scilly Isles."]—where the effective underwriting of the holiday cottage industry has taken the cost of a home beyond the means of ordinary people. I am glad that this includes even the hon. Member for Cornwall, North (Mr. Pardoe).
I should like to say a word at this point about overdraft interest, since this is the second respect in which we are not returning exactly to the 1969 system. Overdrafts are difficult to fit into any system which depends on the use to which loans are applied. Once an account is overdrawn for any length of time, even if it is sometimes in credit, the original purpose of the overdraft may be lost. We have therefore decided, bearing in mind the diminished use of overdraft facilities relative to other bank loans in recent times, that tax relief on personal overdraft interest should be discontinued. But business overdrafts are not affected.
I hope the House will forgive me for dealing with some points in rather more detail than I should have liked, but questions in Parliament and the Press in the last two days show that even if the Opposition are not interested in these matters, other people are.
We have concentrated on three main areas—pensions, food subsidies and housing. We are implementing a record increase in pensions, and doing so, moreover, three months ahead of the time the previous Government proposed for their increases. There is much more that we shall be doing in the coming months and years when we shall be in office.
Meanwhile we shall continue, as we have begun, to bring about a steady improvement in Britain's economic position, all the time making sure that fairness is the order of the day. The few who have had a tax bonanza during the last four years will know that those days are over, while the many will have seen from the

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Budget that burdens and future benefits will be fairly shared. I commend my right hon. Friend's Budget to the House.
Debate adjourned.—[Mr. Golding.]
Debate to he resumed tomorrow.

GOODS VEHICLES (MOTORWAY SPEED LIMIT)
10.1 p.m.
The Minister for Transport (Mr. Fred Mulley): I beg to move,
That the Motor Vehicles (Speed Limits on Motorways) (Amendment) Regulations 1974, a copy of which was laid before this House on 21st March, be approved.
The purpose of the regulations is simply to permit goods vehicles of over 3 tons unladen weight to travel at up to 60 mph on motorways, the position prevailing before the blanket 50 mph limit was brought in to save fuel last December. The House may be wondering why we should be debating speed limits for heavy lorries rather than the restoration of the general road speed limit of 70 mph on motorways, and how it is that limits which were introduced very simply require a long and complicated process to reverse them.
The regulations made last December introducing the general maximum speed of 50 mph on all roads not subject to lower limits were made without the need for specific parliamentary approval as a result of an Order in Council under the Fuel and Electricity Control Act 1973, which dispensed with the procedural requirements of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1967. Such a procedure is not available for the restoration of pre-December limits, and that prescribed by the 1967 Act for quite different circumstances has to he followed.
As for motorways, for vehicles other than heavy goods vehicles we must proceed under Section 13 of the 1967 Act, and regulations have been made subject to the negative resolution procedure to restore the general 70 mph limit from tomorrow.
To restore the 60mph limit for heavy goods vehicles requires an affirmative resolution under Section 78 of the 1967 Act, and this is the resolution now before us. If the House approves it, as I
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hope it will, it will come into effect tomorrow, thus putting motorway speed limits back to where they were before the fuel crisis.
I regret that petrol supplies at present do not permit restoration of the 70 mph limit for all-purpose roads—that is roads other than motorways—and this limit must remain at 50 mph until the supply position improves. When the time comes to change it, it can be done under Section 77 of the 1967 Act, and no parliamentary procedure is involved.
Mr. Peter Emery: I was interested to hear the right hon. Gentleman's reference to the petrol supply position. Can he say whether we now have as many days' supply of petrol in reserve as we had at this time last year? There are indications in the Press that that might be the case. If he can give this information it will better sustain his argument.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I have no intention of allowing a wide debate on this rather narrow matter. The debate is purely restricted to whether there should be a limit of 50 mph or 60 mph for lorries on motorways. That is all that is being debated.
Mr. Mulley: Thank you for your guidance, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Gentleman to some extent anticipated what I was going to say next, about petrol supplies—
Mr. Speaker: Order. The Minister seems to be opening a wider discussion than I think should be allowed, but that is his responsibility.
Mr. Mulley: I will not pursue that matter, Mr. Speaker, and in any event the House understands that responsibility for petrol supplies lies with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy. But petrol remains on allocation, and it is necessary to stress the importance of motorists continuing to exercise economy if shortages are to be avoided, particularly as demand is likely to increase in the spring and at Easter time.
It is relevant to say that there is no present shortage of derv, the fuel for commercial vehicles, and restrictions on its supply have been lifted.
Since some relaxation is possible it seemed right to begin with motorways,

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on which the 50 mph restriction is most irksome and most difficult to enforce. Despite occasional accidents, such as the recent tragic accident on the M1, it is important to stress that motorways are our safest roads in terms of accidents. The accident rate is about one-third per mile travelled compared with other roads. Therefore, it was right to restore the status quo ante in respect of speed limits which were reduced only because of the fuel situation, and if petrol supplies permit we shall restore limits to the pre-energy crisis level. This is without prejudice to consideration of what is necessary in the longer term on both road safety and energy grounds.
Mr. Kenneth Clarke: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The right hon. Gentleman has stressed that the only reason for alteration of speed limits was the oil supply situation. I trust, therefore, that you will allow the right hon. Gentleman to give some details of the supply situation, which is the only reason for the regulations now before the House. If the right hon. Gentleman is not allowed to tell the House about the supply situation the House will be restricted in discussion of the essential background of the regulations now before us.
Mr. Speaker: I must deal with the regulations which are before the House. We are considering a very narrow statutory instrument. There may be wider issues, but other occasions will be found for debating them. The issue before the House is the regulations, which relate only to goods vehicles going more than 50 mph or 60 mph. Another occasion must be found for debating the wider situation.
Mr. Mulley: I respect your ruling, Mr. Speaker. In the context which is strictly relevant, the derv position is satisfactory. As my right hon. Friend has announced, the fuel for the commerical vehicles we are talking about is in sufficient supply to make this relaxation possible.
I hope that the House will agree to the regulations, which, if the House approves, will come into effect tomorrow.
10.8 p.m.
Mr. David Madel: I am mindful of your ruling that we must not widen the debate too far, Mr. Speaker.
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I welcome the lifting of the speed limit to more than 50 mph on motorways. The restriction has had a harmful effect on commercial life, especially as many of our industrial centres are linked by motorways.
I hope that extra petrol supplies will be diverted to motorway filling stations, if necessary. The Minister mentioned Easter and spring motoring.
Safety matters relating to motorways are often discussed when we debate speed limits. I hope that the Minister will ask the police forces to make much greater use of the computer-controlled hazard warning lights. It is a mystery to me why they were not flashing the 50 mph limit notice during the time of restriction. A great deal of the taxpayer's money was spent to install this expensive equipment, and I hope that it will be used more frequently.
There are times when speed limits should be less than 70 mph. I am thinking particularly of the southern section of the M1, which is heavily used by commercial and private traffic, and the conditions in winter and bad weather. I hope that the Minister will ask the police to use the lights at such times.
There is no reason to be frightened about lifting the speed limit to 70 mph. We now have crash barriers on virtually the whole length of the M1 and overhead gantry lights have been installed in the past six months. I again ask the right hon. Gentleman to remind police forces to make full use of the safety devices installed on motorways at great expense to the taxpayer.
10.10 p.m.
Mr. Peter Rees: I welcome the regulations in so far as they raise the speed limit on cars. However, I am more doubtful about lifting it in total for heavy vehicles. No motorway runs through my constituency, but it is connected with the metropolis by the M2. I have often been passed by lorries, both foreign and British, travelling at what I regard as an excessive speed, doing untold damage to the motorway in the long run and causing a considerable amount of inconvenience to other people using the motorway.
The Minister will find on investigation, as I have found, that in many continental countries there are lower speed limits on

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heavy lorries. Will he conduct an investigation of the whole problem to see whether there should be differential speed limits for various grades of lorries here?
I welcome the regulations as they affect motor cars, but I hope that the Minister will at his leisure have a further look at the problem of lorries.
10.11 p.m.
Mr. Kenneth Clarke: I am surprised that the Minister feels able to introduce the regulations because, although I should like to hear that our oil supplies have improved to such an extent as to allow their introduction at this stage, my impression was that as a result of the speed limits imposed by the previous Government we had fortunately avoided petrol rationing, that the limits had had a considerable effect in reducing the consumption of petrol and derv, but that we were doing no better than coping. I was under the impression that we were in no position to guarantee improved supplies of fuel on the scale we should have expected if oil supplies had not been interfered with by political considerations elsewhere.
I therefore hope, Mr. Speaker, that you will not rule the Minister out of order if he wishes to give us some comparisons regarding the derv situation in terms of number of days' supply compared with the supply position when the order was made. Perhaps he will give us the full background and explain why he is able to give this limited relaxation on motorways which was not possible before.
As regulations will lead to an increase in speeds on motorways, will any change be made in the provision of supplies of derv and petrol to motorway service stations? Will they be exempted from the restrictions in supplies imposed on them in the past?
Finally, I hope the Minister can assure us that the order indicates that the Government are in no way committed to a perpetuation of the 50 mph limit on any roads on road safety grounds. I do not know whether his Department has made any attempt to measure the effect on accidents and road safety generally of the enforced 50 mph limit during the past few months. I shall welcome his assurance that the effect has been minimal and that there is no inclination on his part to use the present restrictions as a
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basis for permanent 50 mph restrictions on major roads other than motorways.
Mr. Speaker: If the Minister tries to answer that, I shall not allow him to do so, because the 50 mph limit on other roads has nothing to do with these regulations.
10.13 p.m.
Mr. Hugh Rossi: I accept the Minister's assurance that the crisis in supplies of derv has now passed. That is partly due to the response of industry and members of the public to requests by the previous administration, and to the wise and prudent measures taken by that administration during the crisis. We welcome the fact that the crisis has passed, although the consequences—such as the price of petrol—will remain with us for some time to come. The impact on the economy is well known to every hon. Member.
Any discussion about an increase in vehicle speeds naturally raises apprehension in people's minds. Indeed, the substantial fall in the number of road accidents during the period in which speeds were reduced may be in part due to the reduction in speeds and in part to the fact that there were fewer vehicles on the road.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) promised the House in January that he would make a statement on the consequences of reduction of speeds, and I invite the Minister at some time in the near future to make a statement.
Mr. Mulley: I hope the hon. Member realises that I have that material but that in deference to Mr. Speaker's ruling I did not give it to the House tonight.
Mr. Rossi: I appreciate that, and I am inviting the Minister to give it on another occasison if he would care to persuade his right hon. Friend the Leader of the House to make the occasion available for him.
Accidents involving vehicles are thought to be caused by the bunching of those vehicles on motorways; and the increase in speed by those vehicles will tend to reduce bunching. But that is only part of the story. It is felt strongly that many vehicles on the road today are underpowered, and measures were taken by the

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last administration to improve the power-load ratio. I invite the Minister to give an assurance to the House that he will make sure that those measures are enforced with the full rigour of the law and that he will watch the situation very carefully and take such further steps as may be necessary to increase the power-load ratio of heavy vehicles.
10.16 p.m.
Mr. Mulley: I understand the House's anxiety about fuel supplies. I cannot go into details, for reasons that you have explained, Mr. Speaker. I can assure the House, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy has already done, that restrictions on derv have been lifted. These regulations, which seek to raise the speed limit for commercial vehicles, should not create any supply problems. Individual garages will be able to make the normal arrangements to obtain supplies.
The situation is not the same with petrol, which is still on allocation, and it would, therefore, be wrong for the general 50 mph speed limit to be lifted. It is for this reason that we have confined the regulations to motorways.
The hon. and learned Member for Dover and Deal (Mr. Peter Rees) asked about the possibility of having differential speed limits for different vehicles. As a general principle, I think it would be wrong to use a by-product of the fuel crisis as a means of imposing a new set of speed limits on road safety and other criteria. I appreciate the tremendous response by drivers of both private and commercial vehicles, and that is why the regulations are before the House.
I shall examine the hon. and learned Gentleman's point, but the House should understand that, in considering speed limits, there are two other factors to be borne in mind: first, the practicability of enforceability; secondly, the danger of bunching on the motorways if the speed of lorries is too low. I am advised that that could be almost as dangerous as extending the speed limit.
I am sorry that I cannot give the House the necessary information. It is very sketchy at the moment and full details are available only for December, but when the information is available I
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shall seek an opportunity to make it known.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Motor Vehicles (Speed Limits on Motorways) (Amendment) Regulations 1974, a copy of which was laid before this House on 21st March, be approved.

ADJOURNMENT
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Golding.]

NEW TOWN DESIGNATION
10.18 p.m.
Mr. Hal Miller: I rise to speak on the Adjournment as a result of the arcane mysteries of the selection of these debates, which I gather is more inscrutable than usual on Thursday evenings. I am correspondingly grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, for the opportunity to bring to the notice of the House the financial burden on local authorities resulting from the designation of a new town.
Before going into the subject I should like to offer my humble congratulations to the Minister on his appointment, which has given genuine pleasure to the House and also, I hope, to the right hon. Gentleman as he is now in a position to carry on the noble work first undertaken by his noble father. Those of us connected with new towns greatly welcome his appointment, and I am most grateful to him for the interest he has shown in the subject by attending this evening to reply to the Adjournment debate of a new Member. In the same spirit, I hope that he will forbear to notice the inadequacy of my remarks and that his customary generosity will extend even to supplying answers to the points that I omit to make.
The financial burden of new towns on receiving local authorities has exercised better minds than mine. It is right that I should record my thanks to all members and officials of the various local authorities I have consulted who have been so ready with help and advice. In particular I should like to mention Mr. Frank Hirst, the retiring treasurer of the Redditch Urban District Council.

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I pay tribute, too, to the valuable work of the New Towns Sub-Committee of the Expenditure Committee of the House and the part played in its deliberations by my predecessor as hon. Member for Bromsgrove. In the memoranda of evidence submitted to that sub-committee there is frequent reference to the financial burden, but from the minutes of evidence it does not appear that there was any wide discussion of the subject. That is why I am glad to bring it to the attention of the House this evening.
The issue is of general application to all new towns of the second and succeeding generations, even if the examples I shall quote are necessarily somewhat parochial in their compass. He is a brave man who ventures into the labyrinth of local government finance, and there are not a few who have emerged from that labyrinth only with difficulty, as the House will have witnessed as recently as Monday of this week. I make no bones of the fact that I shall be seeking the exit myself by means of the thread of the right hon. Gentleman's interest and expertise in these matters.
I admit at once that these matters offer severe difficulties in the way of quantification because of the protracted negotiations and discussions among all those involved. Although the aggregate may be difficult to quantify, however, it is easy to detect some of the fingerprints of the heavy hand of this burden and to illustrate them. The components of the burden are also easily distinguished and they consist of standards and costs.
The origin of the burden lies in the simple fact that the services and the amenities have to be provided in advance of the arrival of the population. This effect is aggravated by the lumpy nature, if I may so describe it, of much of the expenditure, for instance, on roads and schools. In this way, heavy expenditure is incurred before there is any appreciable increase in the rate product. Indeed, the previous natural increase in that product may have been delayed by reason of the standstill imposed on planning applications and development because of the new town designation itself.
The burden of servicing this expenditure is also greatly increased should the population build-up be slower than the planned programme of expansion. The
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relative element of the rate support grant is based only on the previous year's population and, to make matters worse, it is reduced as the population increases although the expenditure we are talking about may still be rising.
The consequence is a heavy increase in the rate levy, which falls mainly on the original inhabitants and businesses of the receiving local authority. If I may be permitted to quote some figures from Redditch, I can illustrate the point very simply. Over the past six years the population has risen by 24 per cent.—that is, 14,000 fewer than planned. The rate product has increased by 45 per cent., but the net rate fund expenditure has increased by 201 per cent. The rate levy has accordingly gone up by 125 per cent.
But it is not Redditch alone that is affected. Part of the burden falls on the county authority. The county expenditure per head of the population is already £6 higher than the average in Redditch and £14 higher in Droitwich, a town under the Town Development Act programme.
The effect also spreads to water charges. The Minister may be aware that the charges of the East Worcestershire Waterworks were increased by 50 per cent. last year, mainly as a result of the capital expenditure involved in Redditch and Droitwich. The sewerage charges—if I may turn to such unsalubrious matters —are even more onerous. As a result of the new water authority confining the burden of the corporation's expenditure in this area to the new Redditch District Council—the smallest following the local government reorganisation—there has been an increase already of 5p over the expenditure that would otherwise be incurred. Not only is there a burden, but the high rate, now at 67p—the highest but one in the county, the other being Droitwich—must act as a deterrent to the new businesses that it is the policy and purpose of the new town to try to attract.
I return to the question of standards and costs. Standards are higher in the new town, one of the aims being to provide better living. Therefore, the projects are more expensive as well as being better than their equivalent in the existing town. Because of the burden on the rates and because of the

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inadequate resource base of the receiving local authority, it is not possible to provide the same standards of provisions in the original town for the original inhabitants.
I need not go into all the services and amenities but I shall name a few that impinge most particularly, such as playing fields, meeting rooms, libraries and such mundane items as bus shelters and public lavatories. Apart from the effects in the receiving local authority of Redditch, the effect on the county as a whole is that priority provision has to be made for the new town's schools and roads, with consequent delay on the similarly needed projects in other parts of Worcestershire and my own constituency.
It is not only that standards are higher, but the average cost of these provisions is much higher. The Minister is much more experienced and better equipped than I to picture the reactions of the original inhabitants to paying higher rates for better amenities for the newcomers. I am advised that the difference one might have expected in the assessment to rates as a result of the inferior amenities in the existing town does not in fact perceptibly reflect itself in the assessments following the recent revaluation.
To some extent the incidence of this burden has indeed been recognised, and there was recently an improvement in the amenity contribution, although that improvement was only a one-quarter of the sum recommended by the joint working party studying the matter and reporting to the Minister. But in our case this improvement in amenity grant has been nullified, indeed more than offset, by the decision to exclude meeting rooms from the scope of the permitted expenditure. I am afraid, therefore, that we are right back not just to the start but behind the start as a result of the recent decisions in the case of the amenity contribution.
To some degree there has also been recognition of this burden in the right hon. Gentleman's determination recently made in respect of the proportion of the water and sewerage charges of expenses incurred by the corporation that fall to be met by the local council. Similarly, some roads expenditure was deferred but, again, the specific roads grants are
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to be taken away, and I fear that here again we are moving forward only to go backwards. These measures, although a welcome relief, are still only palliatives. We have not got down to the nub of the problem.
The difficulties of quantification remain, but there are other difficulties of consultation and negotiation. These have been referred to at some length in the memoranda of evidence submitted to the Sub-Committee of the Expenditure Committee, and I do not wish to go into them in detail now.
It is clear that there is a burden and that it results from central government policy. Therefore, there is a natural feeling that the central Government should be doing rather more to meet it. While I cast an eye on the surplus in the New Towns Commission which is open to a direction by the right hon. Gentleman, I very much hope to hear from him that there will be a full examination of the problem, to include consultation with all the concerned public bodies—and I refer particularly to the Association of New Towns Local Authorities, which has up to now felt rather excluded from the process of consultation—to devise an equitable solution. This may involve wider use of the powers under Section 3(3) of the New Towns Act. It may also be the right hon. Gentleman's view that the Sub-Committee of the Expenditure Committee should continue its valuable work in this field.
10.32 p.m.
The Minister for Planning and Local Government (Mr. John Silkin): I am grateful to the hon. Member for Bromsgrove and Redditch (Mr. Miller) for his kind remarks. It is something of a novelty for a son to follow exactly in his father's footsteps on so wide and interesting a subject as this one. The hon. Gentleman made a gallant reference to his predecessor, Mr. Terry Davis, who was a good friend of mine and of many hon. Members. We are glad to see that the hon. Gentleman is taking so keen an interest in his constituency, and in the new town and the local authorities that lie within it.
The hon. Gentleman has, rightly, raised a rather broad subject, and, understandably and properly, has dealt partly with

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the wider implications and partly with his own narrower constituency interests. Part of the trouble of those who reply to Adjournment debates is that they are never certain on which of the two widths the hon. Gentleman who has raised the subject wishes to concentrate, so if I also mix the broad with the particular I am sure the hon. Gentleman will understand.
The hon. Gentleman began by asking me to redefine the objective of a new town. I would say that the main objective of a new town is to provide jobs, houses and other urban facilities for people who are prepared to move from overcrowded conurbations.
I stress that development corporations contribute substantially to the health and wealth of everyone living in those areas, not only those who move there as the new towns develop, but those who were already living there when designation took place. There always is an element of readjustment to be dealt with in this situation, but from the local authority point of view the capital investment introduced by development corporations, some two-thirds of it financed from Exchequer sources, will generate rate income on a scale unprecedented in those localities. Of course, I recognise that a good deal of agricultural land and other useful land is lost, but, on the other hand, there is a gain, and the gain is a thriving urban community living and working in decent modern surroundings
The new town development at Red-ditch vastly increases the resources from which local authority rate income derives. There is a certain amount of evidence on the subject of overall local authority finance, and it seems to show—from evidence both before the new town designation and when the new town is complete or nearing completion—that, taking full account of normal local authority disbursements but bearing in mind Government grants, the overall cost to the local authorities of their share of new town development is no more than the overall gain in terms of rateable value.
I suppose that it would be rather surprising if all the new town local authorities were able to cope on the usual basis at the start of a new town development. The hon. Gentleman made this point strongly about Redditch. After all, such an initial start entails heavy outlay
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on roads, as he pointed out, and main sewers and sewage disposal before the rate income from people moving to the new town is able to finance the charges relating to the capital projects involved. All this I accept. For this reason, in respect of main sewerage and sewage disposal, development corporations make financial contributions to local authority disbursements. These represent the cost of advance provision rather than the provision as such.
The idea is that by the time the new town is complete, the local authority should be meeting the full costs of providing sewerage and sewage disposal for the whole town. The usual form of corporation contribution is an annual reducing contribution towards the loan charges incurred in providing main sewer-aged, based on a formula which takes real account, we believe, of growth of population and of rate income. If there is a dispute over the terms of settlement the Secretary of State has power to make a determination, as the hon. Gentleman knows from the determination which my right hon. Friend made on 25th March in the case of Redditch.
The hon. Gentleman mentioned the question of amenities. I am very conscious of the difficulty that new towns face in the provision of amenities. In opposition, I pointed out that the original £4 provision that my father gave to the new towns for amenities in about 1946 had not been altered in all the years that followed. It has now been altered, and for the provision of these amenities—in the case of Redditch, for example—the development corporation may now contribute to local authority amenity expenditure up to £11 per head of immigrant population, if I may call it that. That figure, despite what the hon. Gentleman has said, was recommended recently by the New Towns Association and the Association of New Town Local Authorities sitting together. In the case of Redditch, I am told that this represents a total of £343,000 on new town amenities. I hope that we shall never be satisfied with that, but at least it is not a bad start.
I come to the subject of land. This is a subject which exercises me considerably at present. When land is acquired by a development corporation and transferred

775
to the local authority it is in most cases transferred not at its acquisition cost, nor at its commercial value, but at a figure about half way between the two. There is a gain in land values for the new town. I believe that the Development Corporation in Redditch and the local authorities concerned have behaved extremely well, and I am grateful to them for the way in which they have conducted matters.
I am grateful for the far-sighted way in which the Redditch Council has taken action to provide amenities in advance of the arrival of people moving into the town and of the rate income which their arrival affords. It does not seem that Redditch in general has a better case for special treatment than other local authorities. At the same time I recognise that the new towns and those authorities in new town areas do have something of a special problem. I have already signified to the Redditch District Council that I will be pleased to meet a deputation, and I hope to see members of that deputation in the near future.
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I will willingly discuss with them not only the problems of finance which the hon. Gentleman mentioned but any other matters that concern them and the new town which they may wish to discuss. I hope that I shall be equally accessible to all the new towns and local authorities in those areas. The answer to so many problems can come in an understanding at least of one another's point of view. Consultation too often in the past seems to have been a question of the Minister saying what he believes is best and telling local authorities or new towns that that is the rule. That is not the way I intend to deal with matters in the short or long time that I may occupy this position. It is in that spirit—I hope that the hon. Member will feel he has gained some recognition of his point—that I say that I am grateful to him for raising this matter and that I look forward with great pleasure to meeting the deputation from Redditch.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at seventeen minutes to Eleven o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at three of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR On the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Liverpool.
Several Lords—Took the Oath.

SMOKING AND HEALTH: TOBACCO BLEND
LORD SUDELEY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether in the interests of smokers' health, cigarette manufacturers will be required to introduce and gradually to increase the proportion of Turkish or Oriental leaf in their blends.
LORD WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are aware of nothing which would justify such a requirement. The tar and nicotine yields of a number of Turkish cigarettes have been analysed recently by the Government Chemist. Although testing was on a small scale, the results gave no reason to take the view that Turkish cigarettes are less hazardous to health than the brands of cigarettes mainly sold in this country. It appears that in general, although the nicotine-to-tar ratio of Turkish cigarettes may be on the low side, their nicotine yield is not low and their tar yield is high.
LORD SUDELEY: My Lords, may I welcome and congratulate the noble Lord on speaking for the first time from the Dispatch Box? While thanking him very much indeed for his most interesting Answer, may I ask him whether he is aware that those who smoke Turkish cigarettes smoke fewer of them, so on the whole that would seem to be more beneficial to public health?
LORD WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for his generosity. I did not know that that was so. I am not myself a cigarette smoker and therefore I am not in a position
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to know it. As I said a moment ago, some tests have been made on about eight brands of Turkish cigarettes; and the results compared with the tests done on some 105 brands sold in this country show that the tar yield is exceptionally high and that the nicotine yield is also high. If these cigarettes were put among the 105 brands in the five tables which we have denoting tar yield, each of the brands in question would in fact be in the high tar-yield bracket. So it is felt that no useful purpose would be served as regards meeting what is perhaps in the noble Lord's mind.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, are the Government able to confirm the fact that the incidence of lung cancer in Turks is higher than in British men?
LORD WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, in reply to my noble friend, I am bound to say that we have no information on this matter. We do not know what the incidence of lung cancer is among Turkish people, and I think we might welcome some information on this.
LORD HAILSHAM OF SAINT MARYLEBONE: But, my Lords, is it not a well-known fact that Turkish cigarettes are usually made in Greece?
LORD FERRIER: My Lords, I should like to associate myself with my noble friend Lord Sudeley in congratulating the noble Lord on his first speech from the Dispatch Box. I believe that the Government have some solicitude for sufferers from lung cancer, so may I ask if they would consider making a reduction in the price of pipe tobacco, since pipe smokers do not suffer from lung cancer to the same extent as cigarette smokers?
LORD WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I am tempted to say to the noble Lord that this could perhaps be regarded as another Question, but I shall be very happy to draw the attention of my right honourable friend to his remarks.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, when the noble Lord says that no useful purpose would be served, is he not aware that perhaps one useful purpose really would be served; that is, to stimulate trade between this country and Turkey, Greece and other countries where Turkish tobacco is grown?
LORD WELLS-PESTELL: I think, my Lords, that would be only at the expense of the health of people in this country.
VISCOUNT MONCK: My Lords, will the noble Lord also accept my humble congratulations? Following that, may I ask him whether he is aware that my noble friend Lord Ferrier is a pipe smoker?

EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT: SELECTION OF MEMBERS
3.13 p.m.
LORD CROOK: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is correct that four ex-Members of Parliament (viz: one who lost his seat at the recent Election and three others who did not seek reelection) remain eligible to continue as members of the European Parliament for a period of six months.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHEPHERD): My Lords, as a consequence of the rules of procedure of the European Parliament (Rule 4(2)) and of a Standing Order made in another place on February 8, 1974, the answer is in the affirmative.
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether it is true to say that the persons who have been selected to go to Brussels have been selected by the Whips of the respective Parties, and not by the Brussels Commission or Council of Ministers? If they have been selected in this country by the Whips, or by the respective Parties, have not the respective Parties a right to withdraw them?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, in the first instance, in regard to the four members concerned, since they were designated by another place this is a matter for that other place and I hesitate to comment on what solution it might find to this matter.
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, what about those members who have been selected from your Lordships' House?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, that matter does not arise on this particular Question.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE: My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that there is some case in a democratic Parliament for ensuring that its representatives to Brussels are democratically elected?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, like my noble friend Lord Wells-Pestell, I must reply that that is another question.

EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT: BUDGETARY POWERS
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what attitude the Foreign Secretary intends to adopt towards the proposals of the Commission and of the European Parliament, now under consideration by the Council of Ministers, for an increase in the budgetary powers of the Parliament.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS): My Lords, Her Majesty's Government will examine this and other matters in the context of their renegotiation policy as a whole.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that reply. But are the Government aware that very large and increasing sums even now are being paid into the central Community funds, over which there is no Parliamentary control whatever? Therefore, when this proposal for the grant of very limited budgetary powers to the European Parliament is discussed, as it will be in the near future—and it has been before the Community Council for some time—will the Foreign Secretary at least consider abstaining, so as to allow the proposal to go through?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, it is unquestionably the fact that large sums of money are involved; however, we are convinced that as renegotiation proceeds—and that will start fairly soon—this and every other important aspect of membership will be properly considered.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether that

725
answer means he is in favour of what the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, says, or not?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, it means what I have just said; namely, as renegotiation proceeds, we shall be looking at this and other aspects of membership constructively and progressively.
LORD BYERS: My Lords, can the noble Lord say how long he expects renegotiation to take?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, we shall of course afford adequate time for these important discussions, but we hope they will not drag along indefinitely.
BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE: My Lords, may I ask how long the reconsideration will take?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, if the noble Baroness is referring to the reappraisal by the Government before they move into renegotiation, reappraisal has been proceeding for some time. We are hoping to begin what might be called Stage 2—namely, renegotiation—as soon as possible, and we shall do it subject by subject, but in a coordinated and parallel manner.
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, can my noble friend say whether the negotiations and the conclusion of renegotiation will have terminated before the next Election?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I can only say that I hope so.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, what I was trying to get from the noble Lord was whether or not he and the Government were in favour of an increase in the budgetary powers of Parliament. Presumably when you go into a negotiation you know what you are seeking to do.
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I understood very well what the noble Lord was trying to get out of me. My answer was that we shall be looking at this, as well as other matters relating to membership, progressively as renegotiation proceeds.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, would the noble Lord at least take into consideration my proposal, that the Foreign
726
Secretary without any departure from his principles—whatever they are—might abstain on this particular issue so as to allow the powers to go through?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I am sure that my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary will consider every possible course of action.
LoRD O'HAGAN: My Lords, do Her Majesty's Government accept the possibility that Labour members of the European Parliament might be able to assist the Government in their renegotiation by their use of the budgetary powers of that Parliament?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, that suggestion will, I am sure, commend itself, with others, to my right honourable friends.

THE EASTER RECESS
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, may I inform your Lordships that, subject to the progress of Business, the House will rise for the Easter Recess on either Wednesday, April 10, or Thursday, April 11, and return on Tuesday, April 30. If the House has to meet on Thursday, April 11, I suggest that we should meet at 11 a.m.

CONSUMER CREDIT BILL [H.L.]
3.19 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to establish for the protection of consumers a new system, administered by the Director General of Fair Trading, of licensing and other control of traders concerned with the provision of credit, or the supply of goods on hire or hire-purchase, and their transactions, in place of the present enactments regulating moneylenders, pawnbrokers and hire-purchase traders and their transactions; and for related matters. My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

JURIES BILL [H.L.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD ELWYN JONES): My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to consolidate certain enactments relating to juries, jurors and jury service with corrections and improvements made under the Consolidation of Enactments (Procedure) Act 1949. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): My Lords, I beg to move the first Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the Select Committee on the House of Lords Offices be appointed and that as proposed by the Committee of Selection (Second Report) the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

Lord Chancellor (L. Elwyn-Jones),

Lord Privy Seal (L. Shepherd),

D. Atholl,

M. Cholmondeley,

E. Alexander of Tunis,

E. St. Aldwyn,

E. Selkirk,

V. Hanworth,

V. Hood,

V. Massereene and Ferrard,

V. Simon,

L. Aberdare,

L. Amulree,

L. Auckland,

L. Beaumont of Whitley,

L. Beswick,

L. Bethell,

L. Byers,

L. Champion,

L. Clifford of Chudleigh,

L. Davies of Leek,

L. Diamond,

B. Emmet of Amberley,

L. Fiske,

B. Gaitskell,

L. Gardiner,

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L. Garner,

L. Granville of Eye,

L. Hailsham of Saint Marylebone,

L. Henderson,

B. Hylton-Foster,

L. Jacques,

B. Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe,

B. Macleod of Borve,

L. Maybray-King,

L. Macpherson of Drumochter,

L. Mowbray and Stourton,

L. Nugent of Guildford,

L. O'Hagan,

L. Orr-Ewing,

L. Platt,

L. Popplewell,

Ly. Ruthven of Freeland,

L. Sainsbury,

B. Seear,

Ly. Sempill,

L. Shackleton,

L. Strang,

L. Teviot,

L. Trefgarne,

L. Tweedsmuir,

L. Wells-Pestell,

B. White,

L. Wilberforce,

L. Windlesham.

—(The Earl of Listowel.)
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, may I ask the noble Earl the Lord Chairman of Committees a question in order to dispel my ignorance on the matter? Why is it necessary to have 52 Members of your Lordships' House on a Committee? Would he say who selects these Members of your Lordships' House? If it is the Committee of Selection, who selects the Committee of Selection?
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I will reply to the noble Lord to the best of my ability. This Committee is chosen, so far as the names which are recommended to your Lordships are concerned, by the Committee of Selection. The Committee of Selection is chosen by your Lordships' House at the beginning of every Session, before any other Committees are appointed. The Offices Committee is a large Committee, but the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, will remember that most of its work is done by a large number of extremely efficient but small subcommittees.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SPECIAL ORDERS
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords I beg to move the second Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider all such Special Orders as are referred to them pursuant to the Order of the 20 March and that as proposed by the Committee of Selection the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:

E. Cork and Orrery

E. Cowley

L. Archibald

B. Bacon

L. Beaumont of Whitley

L. Cawley

L. Clwyd

L. Fletcher

L. Reay

L. Stamp

L. Stow Hill

L. Teviot

L. Wise.

—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

PERSONAL BILLS
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I beg to move the third Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That a Select Committee on Personal Bills be appointed, to which all Petitions for Personal Bills shall stand referred: and that, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:—

V. Bledisloe

L. Cross of Chelsea

L. Henley

L. Mancroft

L. Stow Hill

L. Wilberforce

—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CALF SUBSIDIES (UNITED KINGDOM) SCHEME 1974
3.26 p.m.
LORD WELLS-PESTELL LORD WELLS-PESTELL rose to move, That the Draft Calf Subsidies (United Kingdom) Scheme 1974, laid before the House on March 13, be approved. The noble Lord said: My Lords, as your Lordships will know, calf subsidies have been paid for over 25 years, and there can be no doubt as to their success in encouraging the rearing of suitable calves for beef production. Three years is the longest time allowed for a scheme under the Agricultural (Calf Subsidies Act) 1952. The purpose of the Scheme before this House is to provide for the continuation of calf subsidies for a further three-year period from this coming Monday, April 1, subject always to amendment within the three years if considered necessary by the Government and approved by Parliament.
As in the existing Scheme, Part I, which is known as "Stage A", provides for the certification of live calves and covers calves born on or after October 30, 1973, and up to and including October 29, 1976. Part II, which is known as "Stage B", provides for payment on eligible carcases certified during the period from April 1, 1974, to March 31, 1977, inclusive. The new Scheme contains two small changes concerning the administration of this Scheme which I will come to, with your Lordships' permission, in a moment.
Since the Draft Scheme was laid before your Lordships on March 13, the Government have reached agreement in the Council of Ministers on measures to be taken to support the United Kingdom beef industry. The combined effect of the measures should be to prevent increases in the price of beef in the shops. In accordance with Treaty procedures, the Government have informed the Commission of their intention, subject, of course, to Parliamentary approval, to safeguard the position of beef producers in Great Britain by an increase of £10 per calf in the calf subsidy. The details of the new arrangements are in course of preparation and a variation Scheme, providing for new increased rates in Great Britain, will be

731
laid before your Lordships in the usual way. In the meantime, in order to provide for continuity in the payment of the calf subsidies, it is essential for a new Scheme to receive the approval of Parliament in time for it to be brought into operation on April 1, next Monday. Special arrangements are also to be made for Northern Ireland so as to safeguard the interests of consumers there while preventing the distortion of trade with the Irish Republic.
I now turn, my Lords, to the two changes I mentioned which apply to the proposed Scheme which you have before you. These provide for the extension of the subsidy to live young bulls and for the removal of the dentition test for deadweight certification of bulls and young lightweight animals. So far as the first of these is concerned, the House may be aware that although subsidy has since 1969 been payable at Stage B on the carcases of young bulls meeting certain specified standards, young bulls have not been accepted for certification live at Stage A. I understand that, bull beef being a relatively new development, it was felt at the time that certifying officers would find it difficult to determine whether or not a young bull inspected on the hoof would develop a carcase of acceptable standard since some bull calves developed what is known as "bullish" characteristics—which I must confess, my Lords, did not surprise me when I read it, but I gather that it has some special significance to farmers. Often they produce dark meat not apparent until they are slaughtered. Since then, however, there has been increased experience with bull beef production and a greater understanding of conditions contributing to the unsatisfactory features to which I have just referred. It is felt that there is no longer any reason why young bulls should not be accepted for certification live and thus receive the same treatment as steers.
The Advisory Council for Agriculture and Horticulture in England and Wales have gone into the position of bull beef production and have recently produced a comprehensive and valuable Report. Their view is that by making it impossible for the producer to obtain subsidy
732
on his young bulls when alive, we are putting him at a disadvantage compared with rearers of other calves which are certifiable alive. One of their recommendations is that this constraint should be removed. We agree with this, and the proposed Scheme provides for young bulls to be eligible under Stage A, instead of their eligibility being delayed in all cases until Stage B—which is the dead carcase. Some bull carcases will of course continue to qualify at that stage, provided they meet the required standards and have not been certified live. The proposed extension of the Scheme meets with the approval of the agriculture industry, which is in favour of treating young bulls and steers in the same way. I am informed that the meat trade have accepted it as well.
In their Report the Advisory Council rightly lay stress on the safety requirements for inspecting and certifying live bulls. With this in mind the Scheme is so drafted that any certifying officer who finds on arrival at the farm that the safety arrangements are not reasonably satisfactory from his point of view will be able to refuse to inspect the animals until better arrangements have been made. We shall make sure that both the farmers and the certifying officers concerned are all aware of this. Apart from this, I am confident that farmers presenting live bulls will be very ready to take all the precautions needed to ensure that certifying officers are not exposed to what might be described as obvious risks. The safety measures to be undertaken by bull beef producers who wish to take advantage of these arrangements will be publicised by the Agricultural Departments between now and the end of June, the earliest time under the new arrangements when the first young bulls can be presented for inspection.
The second change was also the subject of a recommendation by the Advisory Council for Agriculture and Horticulture in their Report. It provides for the removal of the condition which requires young bulls to be slaughtered before the appearance of their incisor teeth. This dentition requirement was felt necessary in the early days of bull beef production in order to encourage producers to have bulls slaughtered at a relatively early age. This is no longer considered important

733
and the other tests of eligibility should ensure that the standards remain satisfactory. The draft Scheme accordingly removes this requirement for young bulls, and, to be consistent, for other lightweight animals also. Producers will then be able to send their animals for slaughter at whatever age they consider most suitable to meet market requirements without forfeiting the subsidy if permanant teeth are present, provided of course that the other qualifying standards are met.
The House may wish to be informed of the annual expenditure on calf subsidies. In the 1972–73 financial year the total sum spent was £31·9 million. Of this, expenditure in England amounted to £17·9 million; in Wales, £3·3 million; in Scotland, £6·4 million; and in Northern Ireland. £4·3 million. United Kingdom expenditure in 1973–74 is estimated at about £31·8 million. Expenditure in 1974–75 will be affected by the higher rates recently announced which will more than offset the decrease in the rates of subsidy which followed the 1973 Annual Review. The number of calves on which subsidy has been paid at Stage A has been running at nearly 3 million a year, and at Stage B at about 150,000 per year. This is an excellent and successful Scheme which continues to have as its object encouraging the retention of calves for beef. I commend this Order to your Lordships and hope that your Lordships will give it your approval.
Moved, That the Draft Calf Subsidies (United Kingdom) Scheme 1974, laid before the House on March 13, be approved.—(Lord Wells-Pestell.)
3.35 p.m.
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, may I also congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, on his appointment as a Lord-in-Waiting and indeed on his first speech at the Dispatch Box. I am glad that it was on agriculture. I hope that he enjoys his time in dealing with agriculture, although I rather gather, particularly from the Answers to Questions this afternoon, that he will not be wholly restricted to agriculture. We are grateful to the noble Lord for explaining the purposes of this Order. I do not propose to go into the details of what happens if one has a bull or an animal with "bullish" characteristics, but those of us who do wish to know what happens will
734
be able to find out the information from what the noble Lord has said.
We welcome this Order because it continues what the Conservative Government did when they were in power. It is quite surprising when one recalls that only 12 months ago it was considered that the beef industry was in a fairly reasonable state, so much so that the calf subsidy could in fact be decreased; and over the last 12 months we have seen a considerable change in this situation, where the price of feedingstuffs has gone up at the same time as the price of livestock has gone down. We welcome the continuation of this subsidy which has done so much to encourage the production of beef and the maintenance of beef herds, and which has given so much confidence to producers of calves for beef.
However, I should be grateful if the noble Lord would clear one slight confusion from my mind. When the last calf subsidy Order was introduced it referred to calves born on or after April 16 of last year, and one might have thought that would continue for 12 months; but I see that this Order refers to calves born after October 16 last year. How is it that it was necessary to produce an extra Order now, when one would have thought that the previous Order, which did virtually the same thing, would have continued? It may be that the answer is that this Order is slightly different. But at a time when we are hearing a great deal about the cost of food, the shortage of food, and indeed food subsidies, may I tell the noble Lord that we on this side of the House infinitely prefer this type of subsidy, which actually encourages the production of food, and of a particular food which is wanted, rather than the massive expenditure of public funds on food subsidies which are wholly indiscriminatory in their effect and yet whose effect for each particular item is very small indeed. So the noble Lord will have our support, and willingly, for this type of subsidy which should help in the production of food.
I hope that the noble Lord will encourage his right honourable friend to use his influence in Brussels (he has used it in Brussels this last week) to get the Community to adopt this kind of support and incentive for beef production, rather than to rely solely on the "upping" of

735
the end price of the product, and intervention into cold store, as the method of agricultural protection for beef within the Community. This would enable farmers within the Community to have a return for keeping beef other than by charging the housewife increased prices. This was the point which the right honourable gentleman the Minister of Agriculture was so concerned about last week. I hope that he will try to persuade the Commission to use this type of support, which is a British type of support, in the Common Market. I believe that he will not find the Commission wholly unreceptive to this idea. They may take some persuading that it would be right, but I hope he will urge upon his right honourable friend to persuade the Community to adopt this kind of support; and there may be others as well.
The noble Lord referred to the Minister's recent announcement of the increase of £10 per calf in the calf subsidy which he negotiated in Brussels at the recent meeting of the Council of Ministers. If I may I should like to ask him one or two questions about that. Will this increased subsidy be payable at the same time as the present subsidy to which this Order refers'? I did not quite catch what the noble Lord said—I thought he said it was payable from April 1. In that case this would not run exactly the same as the current Order which we are considering, which in fact runs from October of last year. I should be grateful if the noble Lord would clarify this. I think he said that an additional Order would be produced. Will that Order, in fact, just be for the increase of £10 or will it be a new Order which will cover the £10 plus the existing subsidy which this Order incorporates? Is the increase in price of £10 per calf the subsidy for only one year or, like this Order, will it go on for three years?
I think the noble Lord's right honourable friend negotiated in Brussels that this sum of £10 per calf should be given to British farmers. This was a sum totalling £38 million. But for some reason it was considered that the right way to support beef production in Northern Ireland was not to give them a subsidy of £10 per calf but to give them a subsidy of £2 per cwt. on a finished bullock. Of course, if a 10 cwt. bullock gets £2 per cwt. Then
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in fact in Northern Ireland he will get a subsidy of £20 whereas the British bullock will have received a calf subsidy of only £10. Why is that so? If it was thought appropriate to support beef production in Northern Ireland by giving a subsidy on the fat bullock price why was that not used in England, Wales and Scotland as well? One would think that to be a more appropriate method of supporting the beef industry.
Is it not also a fact that, when the noble Lord's right honourable friend negotiated this in Brussels, Eire said that if Great Britain was going to be permitted to give a subsidy of £2 per cwt. on fat cattle in Northern Ireland they must be allowed to give a similar subsidy in Southern Ireland, because otherwise there would be a confusion of animals going from the South to the North of the Border and across the Border? Is it not a fact that the Eire Minister of Agriculture got an agreement from the Council of Ministers that Eire should give a subsidy of £2 per cwt. on a live bullock? This is the real point: my understanding is that Eire got this agreement to give a subsidy of £2 per cwt. but got the Commission to agree to pay this out of Community funds, whereas the right honourable gentleman the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries was satisfied with the agreement to give this subsidy, totalling £38 million, not out of Commission funds but out of the British taxpayers' pockets. So on the face of it, it must seem that what was hailed by the Minister of Agriculture as something which has been done for the British housewife and for the British farmer has in fact been a rather expensive piece of negotiation whereby the British taxpayer has had to find a subsidy, which in Eire was found out of the Commission's funds.
I do not wish the noble Lord to reply to that specific question if he feels he would rather not, but this is the first time that we have had occasion to consider what his right honourable friend said in the Statement on Monday. In fact, as the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, quite rightly said, the subsidy of £10 per calf which he is going to introduce later is very much tied up with this subsidy and I thought it was only prudent to draw your Lordships' attention to it at this particular time because I believe the effect of it is really quite significant.

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In the main we approve this Order, We congratulate the Government on continuing it and continuing what we did in Government, and we hope that they will continue the policies which we operated, I like to think, so successfully. Also we congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, on taking it through your Lordships' House and explaining so carefully and so clearly what it is about. It is a change for him because normally he is more used to being heard speaking on such subjects as penal reform and local government officers. I hope he will find the change agreeable.
LORD LLOYD OF KILGERRAN: My Lords, may I add my humble congratulations to the noble Lord on his appointment. Many of us know of his fine record of public service outside this House. His name is even held in high esteem in Wales, and perhaps some Welshmen may say that is inevitable having regard to the large of number of double "ll's" that he has in his distinguished title. However, may I be allowed to enter a small note of discord because I wish to express my considerable disappointment that the Government have lost an opportunity of giving much greater assistance and encouragement at this time to members of the livestock rearing industry in Great Britain. I fully realise that the Government have only been in Office a matter of three weeks, but if they are serious about encouraging the maximum economic production of food in this country—and reference was made to that in the gracious Speech—then it would appear to us on these Benches that there is a great deal still to be done in this area.
My information is that if the Government are not very careful there will be a wholesale scramble to get out of livestock production in many areas, particularly unless confidence can be restored in that industry. May I therefore express the hope that the noble Lord will consider again shortly the financial proposals in the Order which he has brought before this House to-day and which he proposes to supplement a little later in this Session. I should like to ask the noble Lord one question. Will he also give serious consideration to extending the scope of the Livestock Rearing Act of 1951 so that it will apply to the whole of the country
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and therefore permit many more beef herds to qualify for the hill cow subsidy?
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: My Lords, I should like to emphasise what the last speaker has said. I believe it is a fact now that the average beef animal produced in this country is being produced at a loss of something like £13. The £10 extra will, of course, cover about three-quarters of this loss but it seems to me that if we want to continue to keep up our beef production it is essential that either the price must be allowed to rise or the £10 extra subsidy should be increased. Otherwise many people who are rearing beef animals at the moment will go out of beef and into barley or wheat and this would be bad for farming in general and bad for our Sunday luncheon in particular.
LORD WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for his kind observations, but I should like the House to know that I am more indebted to him because he gave me some indication as to some of the things he might be asking. That has enabled me to provide (I hope) satisfactory answers. I thought it was a very generous gesture and I appreciate it very much indeed. With regard to the noble Earl's comments about the calf subsidy scheme which he himself was responsible for introducing on April 5 last year, my recollection is that it was in fact a variation Order in which there were changes in the subsidy. I may be wrong about this, but I think I am right. Therefore, they accounted for the new rate taking effect from April 16, where we have gone back to the original date of the subsidies payable from October 30. I think I am right about that, but if not, I hope the noble Earl will say so.
My Lords, we ought not to confuse the immediate need for food subsidies in certain directions; I think this is a matter of opinion. One has to bear in mind, if I may say so with very great respect, that the purpose of this subsidy is surely to stimulate and sustain a high level of production in beef for the future. Therefore one has to do something now that is going to have a long-term effect. Food subsidies, generally speaking, are things that have to be applied immediately in order to deal with the cost of living, and to avoid rises in the cost of living, so I

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do not think one mutually excludes the other; sometimes one has to have both going at the same time. I take the point of the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, with regard to getting my right honourable friend to do something at the E.E.C. perhaps to broaden subsidies along the line the noble Earl suggested. I understand that so far as the past is concerned, the Community has considered measures of this kind, but found very serious problems in the matter of cost and administration. But I will draw the attention of my right honourable friend to the remarks of the noble Earl who is very informed on these matters, as all of us on this side of the House recognise. I am sure my right honourable friend will give those remarks very careful consideration.
My Lords, at one point I thought that the noble Earl. Lord Ferrers, was of the opinion that the calf subsidy was only in respect of £10. As the noble Duke, the Duke of Atholl, pointed out, it is an addition, so the subsidy now for heifers will be £16·50 and for steers, £18·50. There is another reason (which perhaps the noble Earl will allow me to deal with in a moment) why this is very fair, because the actual subsidy that will be given in Northern Ireland is about £1·70 and not £2·00. When one multiplies £1·70 by 10, the subsidy is much the same as it is now—in fact, between £16·00 and £18·00. I would draw your Lordships' attention to the fact that so far as those subsidies are concerned, we are talking about calf subsidies where, so far as concerns Northern Ireland (if I understood the position correctly), this refers to the price for the finished animal. I should think there is some difference there that has to be taken into account.
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for saying that I need not deal at this stage with the attitude of Eire to this matter and whether the payment of subsidies for Eire will come out of the E.E.C. As I understand the situation, Eire is receiving the normal E.E.C. prices, as within that price system. I have no information at all which leads me to think they will be put at an advantage by this, but the noble Earl did say that I need not answer in detail this afternoon. Frankly, I should like to look at it for myself. Once again, I am grate-
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ful to the noble Earl for the way in which he has dealt with this matter.
My Lords, I should like to say to the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, and to the noble Duke, the Duke of Atholl, that perhaps they will allow me to read what they have said this afternoon and to pass on this information to my right honourable friend for his consideration. I do not think it will be disputed in any part of this House that the present Minister is deeply and sincerely committed to agriculture. If anything can be done, I feel sure that my right honourable friend will do it.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

EGGS AUTHORITY LEVY SCHEME (APPROVAL) ORDER 1974
3.55 p.m.
LORD WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I beg to move that the Eggs Authority Levy Scheme (Approval) Order 1974, a copy of which was laid before the House on March 14, be approved. The purpose of this Order is to provide for the Eggs Authority to be financed in the future by means of a levy on chicks used for egg production. While this represents a change in the mechanisms by which the Authority is financed, I should emphasise that it does not represent any real change in principle. The money to be raised by the levy has up to now come from the industry but by means of a deduction from the egg deficiency payments which are to end on March 30.
The Eggs Authority was set up in March, 1971, with the demise of the British Egg Marketing Board and given the general duty of improving the marketing of eggs. Particular functions undertaken by the Authority include advertising, collection and provision of market intelligence and research and development. The Authority currently has 12 members, 3 of whom are independent, one being the Chairman, one the Deputy Chairman and one specially conversant with consumer interest. Five are appointed after consultation with producer interests, and 4 after consultation with trade interests. Perhaps I might say at this stage that the Eggs Authority has been welcomed by both the National Farmers' Union and by farming interests generally. The need for the Authority

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was reviewed last summer and, after consultations with interested organisations, the then Government decided that the Authority should continue in being after March, 1974, provided suitable financial arrangements could be worked out.
As I have indicated, most of the Authority's finance has up to now come from a levy on producers which has taken the form of a deduction from the egg deficiency payments. In addition Ministers make, and will continue to make in the coming year, a 50 per cent. contribution towards certain of the Authority's expenses, particularly in relation to the Authority's market intelligence and research and development activities. However, because of the ending of egg deficiency payments on March 30, it has been necessary to devise a way of raising the levy other than by deduction from these payments. In January of this year the Authority submitted a scheme for raising the necessary finance by means of a levy on chicks intended for use in egg production. The interests primarily concerned have generally agreed that this Scheme provides the most convenient and equitable method of financing the Authority that is available, given the provisions of the 1970 Act. It requires hatchers and importers to pay a levy to the Authority on day-old chicks placed by them for egg laying. Hatchers and importers are in turn empowered to recover the levy from egg producers, to whom they sell the chicks.
Your Lordships will see that the Scheme applies to hatchers in Great Britain and Northern Ireland and to importers bringing chicks into Great Britain and Northern Ireland to be placed for egg laying. Hatchers and importers who during any period of 12 months do not place more than 300 chicks for egg laying purposes are, however, exempt from the Scheme. The Scheme also exempts from levy chicks provided as a tolerance or replacements to compensate for mortality. In addition, it allows hatchers and importers a reasonable period of time to pay the levy due to the Authority and, as well as empowering them to recover the levy from those to whom they sell chicks, provides that they should be reimbursed for costs incurred in the collection of the levy from producers.
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The Scheme embodied in the Order laid before your Lordships also incorporates certain minor modifications made by Ministers to the Authority's Draft Scheme. The modifications which are specified in the Order seek to improve the clarity of some of the definitions in the Scheme. Also, they cover the possibility that this Order might not be approved in time before the commencement on March 31 of the Authority's 1974–75 accounting period. Thus the Scheme, as amended, exempts hatchers and importers from paying levy in retrospect on chicks placed before the necessary further Order specifying the rate of levy for 1974–75 comes into operation. However, I hope that your Lordships will to-day approve the Order before you. If you do, the further Order required to specify the rates of levy will be laid before Parliament as a matter of urgency, and if possible before the end of the week, to take effect from the beginning of the 1974–75 accounting period.
The rate of levy to be specified in this Order is expected to be £2·84 per 100 chicks. The Government believe that the Eggs Authority is performing a very worthwhile service to industry and should be enabled to continue its work. I therefore beg to move that your Lordships approve the Eggs Authority Levy Scheme (Approval) Order 1974 which is before the House.
Moved, That the Eggs Authority Levy Scheme (Approval) Order 1974, be approved.—(Lord Wells-Pestell.)
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Lord for explaining this Order. We realise that in fact, as he said, this is not a question of difference of principle, but merely a different method of financing, and the people who are going to pay are in fact those who purchase the chicks. No doubt they will find that undesirable, but I believe most thinking people will accept that this is a perfectly reasonable way of financing the Eggs Authority, which does a very good job of work. I am grateful to the noble Lord for having explained the Order.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

AGRICULTURE PAYMENTS (EXTENSION) (NORTHERN IRELAND) ORDER 1974
4.04 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, NORTHERN IRELAND OFFICE (LORD DONALDSON OF KINGSBRIDGE): My Lords, I beg to move that the Agriculture Payments (Extension) (Northern Ireland) Order 1974 be approved. The purpose of this Order is to renew the special assistance grant to Northern Ireland agriculture for a further three years at the current rate of £1·9 million per annum. The Order was made by the previous Administration on February 7 and laid before Parliament on March 12. Under the provisions of Section 32 of the Agriculture Act 1957 the Order will not be effective unless approved by Resolution of each House of Parliament. It was approved, I think I am right in saying, two days ago in another place.
The grant was introduced in 1954, following the changeover from fixed prices paid by the Ministry of Food to a system of deficiency payments based on the average market for the whole of the United Kingdom. It was recognised at the time that this would create special problems for Northern Ireland producers because of the disadvantages from which they suffer by comparison with producers in other remote areas in the United Kingdom. Northern Ireland market prices tend to be lower than in Great Britain for a number of the main agricultural commodities, so that even including deficiency payments the total returns for Northern Ireland farmers tend to fall short of guaranteed prices. In order to compensate Northern Irish farmers for this disadvantage, the Government decided in 1954 to make a grant each year for the purpose of assisting agriculture in the Province. The statutory authority for the grant is Section 32 of the Agriculture Act 1957. This provides for the grant to be extended, and for the amount of the grant to be varied at the time of its extension—subject to Parliamentary approval. The current rate of grant, under an Order which expires on March 31 this year is £1·9 million per annum. Under the Order before the House it is proposed to extend
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this grant at the current rate for a further three years.
Finally, I should just say a word about the way in which the grant is used. The Department of Agriculture in Northern Ireland devises schemes that will help farmers there to overcome the disadvantages which they suffer as a result of their remoteness. These schemes are financed out of the grant. Those in operation at the moment are aimed mainly at encouraging better marketing and better quality production, particularly of livestock and particularly, in fact, of beef. Under the provisions of the Act, a statement has to be laid before Parliament before the end of each financial year, describing the substance of the schemes funded out of the Special Assistance Grant. The statement for the current financial year was laid before Parliament on February 4.
The schemes which are financed out of the grant are the responsibility of the Department of Agriculture in Northern Ireland, subject to general approval by the Agriculture Ministers for the United Kingdom and the Treasury. This general approval is needed because the grant is part of the total assistance given under the annual review system, and it has therefore to be used in ways consistent with the Government's agricultural policy. Subject to this proviso, the administration of these schemes is a matter for the Northern Ireland Department of Agriculture. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Agriculture Payments (Extension) (Northern Ireland) Order 1974, be approved.—(Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge.)
LORD BELSTEAD: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge, for explaining this Order. As he reminded the House, the origin of the grant under this Order lies in the financial difficulties imposed on agriculture in Northern Ireland by the distance of farms from markets in Great Britain. The Statement which accompanied the Order, describing the schemes for encouraging greater efficiency of production and better marketing, makes it clear. I think, that the sum of £1·9 million is not by any means just a sum for supplementing the incomes of farmers. But, obviously, cost increases

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must affect requirements for this grant, and I would ask whether the Government believe that the £1·9 million will in fact be adequate for the forthcoming year. I should have thought that the last year in farming has shown that it is going to be virtually impossible to predict with accuracy the movement of animal food prices in the forthcoming year; and of course this is especially true of Northern Ireland farmers, who it is considered face something like £4 million extra in the costs of their feedstuffs compared with equivalent prices for Great Britain.
I may not have read the Order correctly, but I cannot see in the accompanying Statement a mention of any schemes to support pig production. The noble Lord will know better than I do that pig farmers in Northern Ireland have been experiencing particular difficulties. I listened while my noble friend Lord Ferrers referred to the more advantageous arrangements which have been made for beef production in Northern Ireland compared with Great Britain, and I think I am right in saying that under the negotiations concluded in Brussels recently by the right honourable gentleman the Minister for Agriculture the arrangements for pig producers in Northern Ireland are the same arrangements as for pig producers this side of the water, in Great Britain. I believe that the Department of Agriculture in Belfast supports a pig improvement breeding scheme, with considerable effect, and I know that there are other grants for Northern Ireland agriculture. May I ask whether pig producers have any specific share of this grant, and may I express the hope that, if the answer is "Yes", their share is more substantial than I have noticed.
One further reason, I think, for questioning the adequacy of this year's grant is that the Order, as the noble Lord reminded us, was made on February 7 and indeed it bears the name of my right honourable friend the former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. This means that the effect of the Chancellor's Budget of two days ago was obviously not considered in the drafting of the Order, and for agriculture, of course, the effects of the Budget are going to be quite formidable.
My Lords, after it was decided and announced in another place in December of last year that the intention of the
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previous Government was that this Order should be continued for another three-year period there was a sharp increase in animal food prices. As a result, stock farmers have been working on desperately slim profit margins, or perhaps no profit margins at all; and they are now going to be required to absorb increased costs, including an immediate increase of 25 per cent. in the price of steel, a 30 per cent. increase in the price of electricity and, of course, the higher employer's share of the national insurance stamp. I say those things only because the noble Lord will know that, before he went to serve in Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Executive, in their statement of economic and social aid presented to the Northern Ireland Assembly, affirmed that the future of agriculture in Northern Ireland should depend on the development of grassland and the raising of livestock. I hope therefore that there will be opportunity for the size of the grant under this Order to be kept under review and that the Government will undertake to see that this is done.
LORD DONALDSON OF KINGSBRIDGE: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for accepting this Motion in the spirit in which he has done. He has asked me three questions which, if I may, I will answer in reverse order. This grant has not been tailored to suit the Budget. It was arranged before the Budget, and it would be quite wrong to suggest that any effects which come from the Budget have been taken into account. That would hardly have been possible. Secondly, on the question of pigs, this grant has never applied to pigs and it does not apply to pigs to-day. The position of pigs in Northern Ireland is worrying everybody, and the position of the pig producer in England and the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland, has been dealt with recently by my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture in Brussels. As a result, a considerable mitigation for the pig breeders' job has been achieved. The differential between producers in Northern Ireland and this country is under discussion between the Ministers and no decisions have yet been made. This matter is in the Minister's mind, however, and the Minister of Agriculture in Northern Ireland is in contact with my right honourable friend here on the subject. I cannot say more than that at the moment.

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As to the adequacy of the grant, the noble Lord will know from past experience that it has never been fully taken up. The estimate for the take-up last year is between £200,000 and £300,000 short of the grant given, and it is not expected that it will be fully taken up this year. Without suggesting that Northern Ireland agriculture does not need its assistance looked at—I do not want anybody to think that we are trying to cut them down—this does not seem an appropriate place to do any more. We are giving, under this particular provision, rather more than they will in fact use.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE REGULATIONS 1974
4.14 p.m.
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH: My Lords, I beg to move, That the Representation of the People Regulations 1974, be approved. My Lords, you may imagine how relieved I am at being able to follow the tradition of your Lordships' House by making my maiden speech on an uncontroversial matter. I am fully aware that my departmental responsibilities are such that I may not be able to follow up this auspicious start by remaining non-controversial, but I think that on the Representation of the People Regulations I shall at least be able to carry noble Lords opposite with me as the Regulations were made by the right honourable gentleman the last Home Secretary the day before the last General Election was announced.
These are important Regulations: they deal with the registration of electors and the arrangements for absent voting but they are chiefly a matter of consolidation. In the main, they continue the provisions of the Regulations of 1969 and 1973 which they replace. Most of the changes that are made arise as a consequence of local government reorganisation. As these were so numerous, it seemed advisable to make new Regulations rather than to make extensive amendments to the existing ones. I am sure that this decision will commend itself to all who have to use the Regulations.
It may be helpful if I summarise the new provisions. The most important are
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in Regulation 5. These arise from the provision in the Local Government Act 1972 that each district and London borough council shall appoint one of its officers to be electoral registration officer. However, where a constituency cuts across district boundaries, one registration officer has to be designated to be acting returning officer for the constituency. The effect of Regulation 5 is that, in such a constituency, there is consistency as to how the register is prepared and also how absent voting applications are dealt with.
The 1973 Regulations provided for a Member of Parliament to receive a free copy of the register for his constituency, and Regulation 22(3) now provides for every member of a local authority also to receive a free copy of the register for the area he or she represents.
Regulation 29(2)(b)(ii) deals with applications for absent voting facilities on the grounds of physical incapacity. Although no substantial change has been made in the Regulation itself, in advance of the consideration which the Speaker's Conference is expected to give to the whole question of absent voting, the related Form Q in the Schedule has been changed. The first change is that the certificate is now to be signed only by a registered medical practitioner. This is because only a doctor should sign what is essentially a medical certificate. The second change is the addition of a declaration which may be signed by anyone else. Note 2 to the form makes it plain that the application will be accepted if the certificate is signed by a doctor and that it may be accepted if the declaration is signed by someone else. I should explain that the application does not have to be signed by anyone else, but the registration officer must be satisfied that the applicant is entitled, and this may be difficult if no one has signed the declaration. These provisions are all those of the existing law. The form simply clarifies the position. I believe that the new form is an improvement on the old. If we can simplify it still further later, we shall do so.
For the rest, the Regulations contain only minor, consequential and technical changes. The Regulations are the outcome of thorough consultations which my Department has had during the last year with local government officials concerned with their operation and with the political

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parties. The Regulations have been approved in another place, and if approved here will come into operation on April 1, when the new local authorities take over in England and Wales. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Representation of the People Regulations 1974 be approved.—(Lord Harris of Greenwich.)
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, I am glad that it falls to me, as the noble Lord's immediate predecessor in Office to congratulate him on his maiden speech. It was, as he indicated it would be, uncontroversial, the more so in that it had the rather unusual feature of being to some extent déjà vu, from the fact that some of its content I recognise from a speech made in another place when similar Regulations were introduced there the other day. His speech was also admirably short and the noble Lord will, I hope, continue to take that course, as I attempted to do before him. I have often heard it said when maiden speakers are being congratulated and welcomed in this House that we all very much hope that they will again soon take part in debates, and I think that this is no pious wish in the case of the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich. If his experience is the same as mine, he will be amazed by the number of times he will take part in the proceedings of your Lordships' House. The variety and diversity, and indeed in some cases the strangeness, of the subject matter will be matched only by the amazing variety of expertise and wisdom which noble Lords in all quarters of the House can put forward on almost any subject that even the Home Office can give to the Minister of State there. We look forward with enthusiasm to the noble Lord's subsequent speeches—indeed, we are to have another one this afternoon. We wish him very well indeed, and I am sure he will find this a pleasant House in which to work, and one where he will enjoy himself a good deal, even if there are a few sticky patches from time to time.
I go back to the substance of these Regulations, and I need say very little. The noble Lord has explained them quite admirably, and I have no questions to ask. Moreover, the Regulations concern what is almost entirely a matter for another place and for the local authorities; and Members of another place, as
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I noted from the OFFICIAL REPORT, had no questions to ask either. My honourable friend the Member for Cambridge asked some questions about other matters to do with voting, which are of course of concern to a number of people, and a promise was given that they would be looked at. They do not arise under the Order. I am all for consolidation and simplification, and the noble Lord's Regulations go in for both. So I am happy to welcome them, as I do him.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: My Lords, I should like to join in the congratulations to the noble Lord opposite upon his maiden speech, which I thought was quite excellent and entirely non-controversial, which I think was very clever of him on this particular subject. I should like to ask him one question about Regulation 27. The Explanatory Note at the end of this Order says:
"Regulation 27 no longer requires the proper officer of a local authority, who has to make out a corrupt and illegal practices list for his area in accordance with section 40(2) of the Representation of the People Act 1949, to send a copy to the registration officer."
Indeed, I cannot find in Regulation 27 any provision that he should, which is what I should expect. It also says that the registration officer shall do this, that, and the next thing about the corrupt and illegal practices list. How is the registration officer to do this if he has not been sent a list? It seems to me that it would be simpler if he were sent a list, and I was wondering whether the Speaker's Conference had approved the fact that he should not be sent a list. I apologise for not having given warning to the noble Lord that I proposed to raise this question. I hope that sooner or later he will be able to provide an answer, but I shall understand if he cannot do it right away.
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH: My Lords, may I first say how grateful I am to both the noble Viscount and the noble Duke for the generous words that they have expressed on the occasion of my maiden speech. If I may say so to the noble Duke, he will not be completely taken by surprise by the fact that I am totally incapable of answering his question, but I will do my best to find out the answer and send it to him in writing.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE (SCOTLAND) REGULATIONS 1974
4.23 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (LORD HUGHES)THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (LORD HUGHES) rose to move, That the Representation of the People (Scotland) Regulations 1974, be approved. The noble Lord said: My Lords, before speaking to the Regulations, I should like to join in the congratulations extended to my noble friend on his maiden speech. I should like to tell him that the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, will always reply to him in the same courteous and felicitous terms, even when he is totally disagreeing with him, just as he will when in total agreement because he recognised parts of the speech in advance. The noble Duke will also be equally polite—and nearly always as difficult. I am just wondering what rod he has in pickle for me on the Scottish Regulations, which he obviously has read. One of the advantages of having the Scottish Regulations following the English ones—although they are not identical, some parts are the same—is that I have to make a shorter speech. This fits in both with the convenience of your Lordships' House and the natural instincts of the Scottish Office for economy.
These Regulations amend the Representation of the People (Scotland) Regulations 1969 so as to make Part IV of the 1969 Regulations, which deals with the issue and receipt of postal ballot papers, apt for elections of councillors for the new local authorities to be established under the provisions of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973. The first elections to the new authorities take place on May 7 and accordingly the amendments apply from April 1 so that they will be effective for the election period which starts early in April.
The effect of Regulations 2 and 4 is to require references in Part IV of the 1969 Regulations to "election rules" to be construed, in relation to local elections, as references to the Scottish Local Elections Rules 1974 instead of to the Scottish Local Elections Rules in Schedule 3 to the Representation of the People Act 1949. The 1974 Rules made on January 21, 1974, under Section 7 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1973,
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were laid before Parliament on February 7 and came into force on April 1. They govern the conduct of elections to the new authorities. The Rules in the 1949 Act governed the elections to the old authorities, elections to which have now been suspended under the provisions of the 1973 Act.
Regulation 3 amends Regulation 57, also contained in Part IV of the 1969 Regulations, with the effect of requiring documents in connection with postal voting to be forwarded by the returning officer to the proper officer of the council to which elections are held, with special provision for the first elections when a proper officer will not have been appointed, instead of to the appropriate county or town clerk. The regulations do not introduce any changes in procedure; they are essentially consequential on the introduction of new local elections rules which in turn were made to take account of the new structure of local government. I would suggest to those of your Lordships who are interested that this will be much more intelligible if you read it in Hansard to-morrow than it sounds this afternoon. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Representation of the People (Scotland) Regulations 1974, be approved.—(Lord Hughes.)
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, I do not know what the noble Duke, the Duke of Atholl will find to say on this, but I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Hughes, stuck extraordinarily closely to the Explanatory Note, although he in fact explained it rather more fully than does that Note. As the last few sentences spoken by the noble Lord suggested that these Regulations are purely consequential (which is rather what I thought by looking at the text), I do not think I have any questions to ask him. Therefore, I welcome them and note that they will come into force on, I think, Monday, parallel with the other Regulations that he mentioned, which were made earlier this year.
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: My Lords, I know that I am going to disappoint the noble Lord opposite in that I too have absolutely no questions on these Regulations, even though I had to look at them as a Member of the Joint Select Committee on Statutory Instruments.
LORD HUGHES: My Lords, I would only say to the noble Duke that he does not disappoint me in the slightest; he relieves me.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

RATING OF MINOR STRUCTURAL ALTERATIONS TO DWELLINGS (SPECIFIED AMOUNT) ORDER 1974
4.28 p.m.
LORD GARNSWORTHY LORD GARNSWORTHY rose to move, That the Rating of Minor Structural Alterations to Dwellings (Specified Amount) Order 1974, be approved. The noble Lord said: This Order is made under Section 21 of the Local Government Act 1974. That section has the effect of excluding proposals being made to change the valuation list if structural alterations have been made to a property, either to install central heating or if the alterations would give rise to an increase in gross value not exceeding a prescribed amount. The purpose of this Order is to prescribe the amount, and we think £30 is the right figure. This means that if a householder builds a normal sized garage his rateable value will not be increased between revaluations. The same will apply to porches, bay windows and so forth.
I hope that if your Lordships approve this Order we shall have got rid of one of the irritations of the rating system. Many ratepayers have complained that they are penalised for improving their properties; this Order will ensure that they get a respite. The respite cannot be made permanent because that would not be fair to other ratepayers but at least we can remove the immediate source of complaint. I therefore commend this Order to your Lordships.
Moved, That the Rating of Minor Structural Alterations to Dwellings (Specified Amount) Order 1974, be approved.—(Lord Garnsworthy.)
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, for explaining this Order so clearly. As this is the first opportunity that I have had to do so, I should like to congratulate him on his new job. I assume that he will be speaking on all matters to do with the Department of the Environment and I hope
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that he will enjoy his work. I am sure that he wil find it as interesting and as worth while as I did. At the same time, I feel certain that he will not in any sense tyke it amiss if I repeat what has been said to me by Members in all parts of your Lordships' House and by people outside, that it is a matter of disappointment that we do not have a Minister in this House who is responsible for environmental matters. I say that because we have so many Members here who are not only experts in, but are practising members of, local government, and people who are acknowledged nationally for their interest in the environment.
I very much welcome this Order which, as the noble Lord explained so clearly, flows from the Local Government Act 1974 which was the very last Act of the Conservative Government. As he said, the Order removes an inequity and a great irritation to householders who make relatively small improvements to their properties and who, without this Order, would immediately find themselves being charged with increased rates because the values had gore up. Also, it was most helpful of the noble Lord to give some examples of the kind of minor improvements which the Order will cover. I understand that it will give relief until the next revaluation and will therefore tide people over this interim period. As I said, I am glad to welcome the Order and I wish the noble Lord every success in his work with the Department of the Environment.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, may I begin by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Young, for what she has said about myself. I am very conscious of the manner in which she discharged her duties while she was at the Department of the Environment. I have beard nothing but praise for the diligence and the expertise which she brought to the discharge of her duties and she has left a lasting impression there.
As regards the question of my always speaking on matters to do with the environment, no one is more relieved than I to say that that will not be so. That would indeed be a vast undertaking. I shall give such service as I can to the House and to the Department, and I fully appreciate what the noble Baroness has said. But I should like to repeat what was said earlier, that my noble friend the

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Leader of the House will be heavily involved with the Department of the Environment. I think it will be some comfort to your Lordships to know that he will have an office there and will be playing a very considerable part in dealing with matters to do with the Department. I trust that that will allay many fears. Knowing the ability of my noble Leader and his capacity for work, I am quite sure that he will often be speaking for the Department. Finally, I should like to thank the noble Baroness for what she has said about this Order.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

MOTOR VEHICLES (SPEED LIMITS ON MOTORWAYS) (AMEND- MENT) REGULATIONS 1974
4.35 p.m.
LORD GARNSWORTHY LORD GARNSWORTHY rose to move That the Motor Vehicles (Speed Limits on Motorways) (Amendment) Regulations 1974, be approved. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the purpose of these Regulations is simply to permit goods vehicles of over 3 tons unladen weight to travel at up to 60 m.p.h. on motorways, the position prevailing before the blanket 50 m.p.h. limit was brought in to save fuel last December. As such, I hope that they will not prove controversial and that your Lordships will agree that in present circumstances it is right to return to the status quo ante for all vehicles using the motorways. Your Lordships may, however, be wondering why we should be debating the speed limits for heavy lorries, rather than the restoration of the general road speed limit of 70 m.p.h. on motorways, and how it is that measures which were introduced "at a stroke" take a little longer to get rid of. I shall do my best to explain in brief compass.
Section 78 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1967 permits the Secretary of State, by regulations subject to Affirmative Resolutions of both Houses of Parliament, to vary the speed limit of specified classes of vehicle when driven on a motorway. Vehicles not contained within one of the specified classes are simply subject to any prevailing road speed limit on motorways. Under the Regulations which were in force before the general 50 m.p.h. limit was introduced, the only class of vehicles which was limited to a
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motorway speed of less than 70 m.p.h. but over 50 m.p.h. was the class of goods vehicles of over 3 tons unladen weight which was limited to a 60 m.p.h. maximum. Accordingly, when the general limit on motorways was reduced from 70 m.p.h. to 50 m.p.h. it was necessary "for the avoidance of doubt", as the lawyers have it, to reduce to that lower figure the limit for heavy goods vehicles; in other words, a belt and braces job was done.
Regulations now having been made (subject to the Negative Resolution procedure) under Section 13 of the 1967 Act to restore the general 70 m.p.h. limit on motorways, the Regulations now before your Lordships restore the 60 m.p.h. limit for heavy goods vehicles by getting rid of the amending Regulations brought in for the emergency and restoring those in operation beforehand; that is, the Motor Vehicles (Speed Limits on Motorways) Regulations 1973. Incidentally, the latter are consolidated and contain all the relevant provisions about special vehicle speed limits on motorways. It may be asked: how does it come about that these Regulations, but not those made in December, require the approval of your Lordships? The answer is that last December an Order in Council made under the Fuel and Electricity (Control) Act 1973 dispensed with the procedural requirements of the 1967 Act in the interests of fuel economy, and the Regulations were not subject to Affirmative Resolution. Such a procedure is not available for the restoration of the pre-December limits and that prescribed by the 1967 Act had to be followed. I hope that this will be sufficient explanation of the Regulations themselves. However, before moving that they be approved, I should perhaps say a word or two about the decision not to restore for the time being the 70 m.p.h. limit on roads other than motorways.
My Lords, the United Kingdom has traditionally been an importer of petrol and naphtha, which is closely related to it and is used as a feedstock for the petrochemical industry. Current output from home refineries will not be enough to meet the demand for these products and there is a risk that the imports on which the United Kingdom normally relies may not be available. There is, therefore, a continuing need for economy in the use of petrol not only because of

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the present tight supply situation for this product, but also to protect the availability of naphtha for the petrochemical industry. It is, of course, possible to increase the production of petrol at the expense of naphtha, but this would result in a further cutback in supplies to the petrochemical industry at a time when the Government are doing everything possible to get manufacturing industry back to full production.
It is not possible to modify the savings arising directly from the introduction of the 50 m.p.h. limit because of the effect of the economies exercised voluntarily by motorists in reducing weekend motoring and cutting out non-essential Sunday driving. The speed limit of 50 m.p.h. was selected as one which offered a reasonable saving in fuel consumption consistent with the performance of the modern motor vehicle. As an indication of the kind of fuel savings that can be achieved, a typical medium-sized private car travelling at a steady speed of 50 m.p.h. will consume around 20 per cent. less petrol than one travelling at 70 m.p.h. It is appreciated that some vehicles may be designed to provide the maximum efficiency at a speed in excess of 50 m.p.h. but these form only a small proportion of the 15 million or so passenger vehicles currently on the road.
My Lords, the petrol supply position is such that the Government thought very hard indeed about making any relaxation at present. Nevertheless, although some of the fuel savings currently being achieved will be lost by lifting the limit on motorways where it is most irksome, there is still a good deal of motor traffic on other roads where the 50 m.p.h. limit still applies and there is accordingly scope here for much-needed savings. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Motor Vehicles (Speed Limits on Motorways) (Amendment) Regulations 1974, be approved.—(Lord Garnsworthy.)
4.42 p.m.
LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON: My Lords, I too, like my noble friend Lady Young, would like to take this opportunity, the first I have had—other than at Question Time yesterday when I would not have been in order—to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Garns-worthy, on his position, in my case more
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particularly so, because not only is he in my old room in the Department of the Environment but at my desk and using my former private office staff. So I wish him particularly well, and I know what splendid service he will get from that staff. I can only wish him every good luck.
I must thank him for explaining this Order which he is introducing, and of course we welcome it so far as it goes. The noble Lord explained that the need for fuel economy is still with us. I had hoped that the 10 per cent. overall cut to petrol stations might have been considered sufficient, coupled with the noble public spiritedness of the ordinary motorist in not using his car more than necessary. A cut of 10 per cent. to the petrol stations is considerable. We have to consider such roads as the A1, particularly what I call the pseudo-type motorway parts of it like the Stamford By-pass, and, to take the example of the new Andover dual carriageways, there is little difference between these types of road and the M roads. I know that there are differences, especially legal differences, but to get public co-operation here is going to be difficult and I think we ought to sympathise with the police in exercising their discretion on the matter. I would urge the noble Lord—I am sure he will—to bring the matter to the attention of his right honourable friend. I think it will pose difficulties of enforcement for the police because on these sort of roads which are so like the M-ways the public will find themselves in difficulty.
The only other point I want to mention is that it was always said by us when in Government that as soon as the crisis was over we would end the whole thing. I do not know whether this idea of gradually stopping had been envisaged, but it will tend to make enforcement difficult. On that point my message to the noble Lord and to the Government is that they should consider the position. However, we thank the noble Lord for bringing in this Order.
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Mowbray, on one point which has been raised with me. There is an area of confusion at the moment about where one can travel at 70 m.p.h. and where one can travel at 60 m.p.h. I suggest to the Government that it is a good idea to deal quickly with

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the situation concerning the particular type of road which has been mentioned. I have also in mind the A40, which is very similar to a motorway, and to many people who use motorways it would appear that there is some danger if the speed is changed on motorways but not on other roads. It is felt that such an anomaly will attract more traffic on to motorways, and that surely cannot be desirable. I expect that the noble Lord can tell us when we may expect the change-over to take place in regard to the other motorways.
VISCOUNT ECCLES: My Lords, I do not wish to intervene for more than a moment. Although I would not oppose it, I should be sorry if this Order were to go through, on two grounds: first, on the general ground that I do not think we are in a position to relax economies on imports. It seems to me that the import situation is so serious that if we were able to make a cut on the requirements of oil or to divert oil to naphtha or other feed stocks for the chemical industry, for man-made fibres to plastics, and so on, which are then exported, we ought to do it. That is one point on which I do not know the figures well enough to substantiate my contention.
Secondly, it has been much more pleasant on our motorways since the restrictions have operated. I do not quite know for whose pleasure the limit was put back to 70 m.p.h. I frequently use the motorway going home, and I am hound to tell the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, that it is the fast moving lorries that cause one trouble when they move out from the nearside lane to pass, especially when the surface is dirty after rain. I think that noble Lords will agree with me that whatever the speed limit one travels 5 m.p.h. faster and thinks that the police v ill not intervene because one is travelling at 75 m.p.h. or whatever. In my experience this has been evident with unladen lorries. Driving has been so much less nerve-racking with the lower speed limit that I regret the proposed increased sped on two grounds. I regret it, first, because I think that from the point of view of the national economy we ought now to try to save imports of oil. Secondly, I regret it because I think that the comfort and pleasure of those who use motorways is more important than
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those who wish to be quick and hasty in getting to where they want to go.
LORD SOMERS: My Lords, I am bound to disagree with a good deal of what the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, said. I quite agree with the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, that the need for economy is still with us. On the other hand, one must remember that many cars use less petrol at 70 m.p.h. than do others at 50 m.p.h. The position is entirely dependent on the size of the car and the speed at which it is driven. But the mentality of the motorist is peculiar. Having been a motorist myself I can vouch for that. If there is a limit of 50 m.p.h., he will tend to drive at 50 m.p.h. and never drop below that speed. The result is constant bunching of traffic on the motorways, whereas if there were no limit, which I think would be the ideal on motorways, there is far less of that sort of thing. Nowadays certain people drive slower, particularly those with larger cars, while others drive faster. Therefore I think that to relax the speed limit as far as possible will make for much less crowding of traffic.
4.50 p.m.
VISCOUNT HANWORTH: My Lords, I must confess that I am one who does not believe in any speed limit whatever on a motorway, but taking the facts as they have been put to-day, we should first of all remember that the potential saving of petrol by private motorists does not represent a very large proportion—in fact, it is a very small proportion of the total requirements of the nation. I submit that once the limit is taken off motorways—and bearing in mind the traffic congestion that exists on a great many roads to-day—most people will not exceed 50 m.p.h. except for very short periods. Therefore I am not convinced by the argument that we are making any worthwhile saving at all by keeping the 50 m.p.h. speed limit on other roads.
When it comes to commercial vehicles, and even those people who are driving on business, one must also remember that one costs out the time—and I know that the extent to which one should do so is arguable—there is a tremendous loss by reducing the speed between two points. However one makes that calculation, this would far outweigh any minute

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saving there might be on our overseas payments in keeping on the limit.
LORD FERRIER: My Lords, I must first apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, for not having been here when he was speaking. I came here as fast as I could. Something which my noble friend Lord Eccles said has tempted me to speak. As noble Lords know, over the years I have initiated a number of debates in this House in connection with road safety, and I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, referred in his speech to the question of safety. The fact remains that this limit has reduced the incidence of fatal and serious accidents throughout the country. I shall not touch upon the economy aspect as I did not hear what the noble Lord said, but I believe that some limitation in speed is prudent.
What my noble friend Lord Eccles said makes me mention a letter which appeared in a newspaper either to-day or yesterday of the driver who said, "I go fast along the roads because I am trying to get away from the 40-tonner that is on my bumpers behind." When one remembers the accidents we have had in fog this is a very real point. Over the years—and I have been a motorist for very many years—it has been a grief to me to see that whereas twenty years ago the heavy transport driver was the knight of the road, I regret to say that that to-day is no longer the case.
I feel that one factor which can be tackled in regard to economy in speeds and the saving in accidents would be to test out the schedules to which these commercial drivers have to drive. I think the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, touched on that point. It is all very well saying that transport drivers should not be travelling in that way, but they have been used to a strict so-many-hours running and they have to cover so many miles in that run. Depending on conditions, they have to push along if they are to keep to their schedule in accordance with their employer's instructions. If commercial drivers are giving trouble by their excessive speeds, cannot something be done to tackle their employers to see whether the schedules they are given are too tight?
LORD THOMAS: My Lords, I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier,
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that the commercial vehicle driver used to be the knight of the road but that he is now the nightmare of the road. They occasionally make very grave mistakes, but none the less no one will convince me that a car or vehicle driven at 70 m.p.h. is more economical than one driven at 50 m.p.h. Equally, users of motorways and vehicles on motorways are much less sensitive to the speeds than those who travel on other kinds of roads where you get variations in hills and hollows, where you also get corners and there is the necessity for braking and accelerating which of course uses a lot of petrol. If you get a straight run, the difference in petrol or fuel consumption between 50 m.p.h. and 70 m.p.h. is not very great. Personally, I believe that the Motion that has been proposed contains a great deal of sense and I should like to support it, because particularly on motorways unless heavy transport vehicles call (when weather conditions permit) legitimately drive at 60 m.p.h. it is just a waste of motorway.
4.55 p.m.
LORD DE CLIFFORD: My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, whether he would very carefully consider this 50 m.p.h. limit on roads other than motorways. When the 50 m.p.h. was imposed from the point of view of economy the situation was so critical, and it was so constantly being brought to the attention of everybody how critical it was, that the 50 m.p.h. limit did not need to be enforced because people were automatically enforcing it themselves out of good sense and a knowledge of the difficult situation of the country. This knowledge is now receding into the background. Petrol is adequate. Very few people are refused it. The tendency is for the speeds to go up all the time, particularly on dual carriageways. We are asking a great deal of the police to enforce a regulation, particularly on dual carriageways, which is beginning slowly to be ignored by people using them. I do not like laws which cannot be enforced and I feel that this 50 m.p.h. speed limit is rapidly reaching that situation.
LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTH: My Lords, first may I associate myself with the congratulatory remarks which my noble friend Lord Mowbray and Stourton made when responding to the Minister.

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Secondly, having listened most carefully to what he has had to say, I must confess that I can see no good reason for continuing the restriction on roads other than motorways because the amount of saving is infinitesimal. Certainly there is—and I speak, my Lords, as a director of a company retailing petrol—an adequacy of fuel available up and down the country, and I also travel many miles.
The savings that have come about have been largely due to the price and I have little doubt that next week one or two other people will be making economies in their journeys. Those people who find it essential to travel, notwithstanding the price, are not concerned with saving something like three to seven miles per gallon, or 20 per cent.; because, after all, when you go to a filling station to buy £2-worth of petrol the difference between £l·97-worth and £2 is hardly noticeable. Therefore one does not think about a saving of fuel. If one really wants to bring home the urgent need to save fuel because of the overseas payments problem, there are many different ways of doing it. One way I suggest is that we postpone the opening of new filling stations, which will merely aggravate the situation and entice more people to buy more petrol for various and different reasons.
I was very disappointed to hear the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, and the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, in their condemnation of the lorry driver. You would expect me to be disappointed in listening to them. One must realise that when one takes a 28-ton or a 30-ton gross vehicle on a long run of 30 miles down a motorway one wants to get up to an economical and easily controlled speed. It certainly is welcome to the responsible long distance lorry driver to be able to go faster on a motorway. He thereby saves a great deal of his personal energy as well on the journey.
The other point, which I have made on many occasions in debates on Road Traffic Bills, was made by the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips. We now have four different speed limits up and down the country on a variety of roads which, on occasions, are exceptionally difficult to identify. If one happens to miss the entry sign, on some occasions it is difficult to decide whether you are on a by-pass, a motorway, an A road, a B road
764
or what have you; and I can see a great deal of confusion arising. We shall have policemen stopping motorists and lorry drivers and saying, "Do you know you are exceeding the speed limit?", and the drivers replying, "Which one?" It really seems to me to be quite unreasonable that one should have this artificial limitation for the only good reason that I was able to hear the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, suggest of a 20 per cent. saving on fuel by a limited number of vehicles using a limited number of roads.
LORD PLATT: My Lords, may I just point out that we have been listening to a great many contradictory statements, many of them quite unsupported, I imagine, by evidence. I should at least like to point out that a saving of 20 per cent. is not 3p on a bill of £2.
5.2 p.m.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, when I knew I was taking this Order I had the feeling that I risked running into this situation, but I feel that the debate has been thoroughly worthwhile in that so many Members of your Lordships' House have spoken. As the noble Lord, Lord Platt, has pointed out, many of the points made have been replied to by other noble Lords who have spoken. I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Mowbray and Stourton, for the very kind things he said. Perhaps I may say that I have found his office very pleasantly situated. I have been very busy since I have been there and I have had very little time to take in all the details, but I have noticed that he has robbed me of what I understand was a very beautiful picture that was on the wall opposite to where I sit which he was thoroughly entitled to do because it was his own personal property. If he would like to let me have it back on permanent loan I should be delighted to have it, and should feel that I had something of very considerable artistic merit as well as value. I can assure him that I should appreciate seeing that picture there as much as I am told he did when he was there. But he really was extremely kind.
My Lords, I think the House would not want me to reply over-fully to all the points that have been made, but if I may come to the one raised by the noble Lord, Lord Mowbray and Stourton (and

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one or two other noble Lords raised it as well), he drew attention to the situation as regards the A.1 and the A.30. It is felt that to raise the limit to 70 m.p.h. on all dual carriageways would be too big a relaxation in the present fuel situation. If I may reply to a query raised by my noble friend Lady Phillips, as to some clear indication of the roads on which one can travel at 70 m.p.h., I take the motorways as an example. Motorways are clearly distinguishable by the blue signs at the entrance and by the prefix or suffix "M" to the road number. It is on these roads that the 50 m.p.h. limit has been found most irksome.
That brings me to one of the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord de Clifford—and, if I may say so, I think this is, at least, a part of the answer to one of the points raised by the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles. If speed limits are going to be effective, there must be respect for them, and information given to me indicates that the limit of 50 m.p.h. is being increasingly flouted on the motorways. I do not know what time of day the noble Viscount travels, but the information available to the Department is much more in line with the view expressed by the noble Lord, Lord de Clifford. If I may say so, I am informed that the police are very anxious indeed that the position should be treated in the manner in which this Order will deal with it.
As I have said, a number of your Lordships answered points made by other noble Lords, but may I say to the noble Lord, Lord Ferrier, that if in point of fact lorry drivers exceed the limits, as he suggested they do, they must be aware that they are putting their own position at risk. If schedules are so drawn that lorry drivers are compelled to consistently and persistently exceed speed limits, and if they get caught for it, as I understand it, in extreme cases the employers themselves might very well put their operator's licence at risk. So I would think that there is no need for more to be done about that problem, but the situation is being constantly watched. I must say that when the noble Lord said that he had missed the opening of this debate, but he had hurried here as fast as he could, it seemed to me that he was accepting the need for the abolition of all speed limits so far as his own travel was concerned; but,
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even so, I think it is a pity that he did not arrive here in time.
My Lords, I hope the House will approve this Order. I believe that it will serve a very useful purpose in two ways. It will make the position much easier on the motorways, and it will continue to assist—this is expert opinion—in fuel saving.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

LOCAL AUTHORITIES' CEMETERIES ORDER 1974
5.8 p.m.
LORD GARNSWORTHY LORD GARNSWORTHY rose to move, That the Local Authorities' Cemeteries Order 1974, be approved. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I do not know whether it is appropriate that we should be taking an Order dealing with cemeteries immediately after the one we have just had before us, and I am not sure whether we shall have as many experts on this subject as we did on the last one. But this Order, while unsensational in its content, and undertaken in the context of local government reorganisation, constitutes something of a landmark in the history of burial law.
The law of burial has developed rather messily as a result of a long series of Acts of Parliament from the middle of the 19th century onwards. It has for many years been recognised as one of the most out-of-date and chaotic branches of the law. The most obscure and complicated aspects of it were those relating to the provision and management of burial grounds and cemeteries by local authorities, many of whom (but not all) could work either under the Burial Acts 1852 to 1906 or under the even older, but at least more concise, Cemeteries Clauses Act 1847, which was applied by the Public Health (Interments) Act 1879. The London Government Act 1963 undertook some rationalisation of the law as it related to London, but the opportunity for a more thorough overhaul of the position nationally was taken in the Bill which became the Local Government Act 1972.
The Act repeals, as from April 1, 1974, the Public Health (Interments) Act 1879 and the provisions in the Burial Acts 1852 to 1906 conferring powers to provide burial grounds. Instead, the 1972

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Act starts afresh by conferring the power to provide cemeteries on burial authorities—defined so as to include all local authorities, other than county councils, down to parish and community councils and indeed the parish meetings of parishes having no parish council. And the Act (in Section 214(3)) empowers the Secretary of State to make provision, by Order subject to Affirmative Resolution of both Houses, with respect to the management, regulation and control of the cemeteries of local authorities. The first such Order is the one now before the House.
As a precautionary measure the Act applies the code of operation contained in the Cemeteries Clauses Act 1847 (except for specified sections which are not relevant to local authorities) to all burial authorities until such time as the first Order made by the Secretary of State under Section 214(3) takes effect. The object was solely to ensure that if for any reason it proved impossible to bring an Order into force by April 1, 1974, burial authorities would still have a set of detailed powers for the operation of their cemeteries in spite of the repeals in the 1972 Act. But no one could really want to complicate the administration of the new burial authorities, or of the many parish burial authorities who continue in existence, by requiring them to operate temporarily under an Act of 1847 which most of them have never seen and which it would not be easy to lay hands on—hence the importance of seeing to it that the present Order takes effect on April 1.
The Order includes such material on the management of cemeteries as it seemed necessary to preserve from the mass of 19th century legislation which is being repealed, but a number of additions and improvements have been made in consultation with the interested organisations. It is intended to deal with special subjects, like the registration of burials and the conversion of cemeteries to lawn cemeteries, in further Orders, and to consolidate them with this one so that from now on burial authorities will have a concise and up-to-date code for the operation of their cemeteries.
What cannot be done in these Orders is to deal with matters other than the management, regulation and control of local authority cemeteries, or to deal at
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all with matters relating to cemeteries provided otherwise than by local authorities. This leaves a number of aspects of the law of burial which could only be dealt with by Bill, for which, regrettably, previous Governments (both Conservative and Labour) have been unable to find Parliamentary time. These aspects of the law are being considered separately by the Department of the Environment. Meanwhile, my Lords, the Act of 1972 and this Order will have remedied the worst defects of the existing law of burial. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Local Authorities' Cemeteries Order 1974 be approved.—(Lord Garnsworthy.)
5.15 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, I suppose it was rather more than ten years ago that I first drew the attention of this House to the state of the burial Jaw, and I have had the warmest support from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, ever since in my efforts to get something done about it. I emphasise and underline every word of opprobrium that has been poured upon the previous state of the law by the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy. I think it concerned chapels. This Order is indeed a landmark, or, if I may change the metaphor a little, a gift horse, and I do not want to look it too closely in the mouth.
There are just one or two question I should like to ask while the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, sits patiently waiting to put his Unstarred Question. I appreciate this Order has had to be produced in a hurry, but we have here a system which, though it has great advantages, also has some minor disadvantages which I shall deal with in a moment. We had Section 214 and Schedule 26 in the Local Government Act, and already quite a number of paragraphs in Schedule 26 have been repealed and replaced in the Order. First of all, what for instance is the material difference, if any, between the paragraphs 21 and 22 in the Schedule and their reincarnation as Articles 11 and 5, sub-paragraphs 1–3 in the Order? Is there any difference at all, or is this just tidying up?
Secondly, are we in due course to have a complete re-statement of the parts of the Schedule which deal with the provision and management of cemeteries all

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in the same place? For instance, shall we have paragraph 11 of Schedule 26 reproduced in one of these Orders or in a consolidation Order? I ask that for this reason: much of the actual day-to-day work is going to be done by very small local authorities (previously parish councils and now local councils), and it is of the greatest importance that the clerk or other person in charge should be able to find the law in one place. The whole object of this exercise has been to get rid of the mountainous mass of prehistoric legislation which has literally hung like a tombstone round the neck of anybody trying to administer the burial law, and to give him a single, simple code to work on. The noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, promises this because he says there are two further Orders and then a consolidation. Will he please also consider getting rid of Schedue 26 altogether—apparently there are powers available to do this—or at any rate to get rid of as much of it as possible, so that we may have everything in one place? Then there will be just one Order, and that is all that has to be looked up by those who are running this sort of service in the local authorities.
The disadvantage of doing this by Order is rather a matter concerning those who produce textbooks or other guidance for the practitioner or the person operating a burial ground or cemetery, in that, so far as I know, one does not get any publisher to produce an annotated copy of a Statutory Instrument. It is most unusual to find the complete code of powers and provisions covering a subject like this in a Statutory Instrument. In Halsbury there is a whole section on burial and cremation. This will disappear completely, because all the Acts will be repealed and the only thing to be put in their place is a Statutory Instrument. Therefore there will be no annotated version. I hope that those who prepare the books for guidance will take account of that fact—I notice that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, is nodding; I think he takes my point. We shall need to have some notes and cross-references, which are so helpful to us all. To my knowledge, that is the only disadvantage in doing this by way of Statutory Instrument. The advantage, of course, is flexibility and the ability to repeal, amend and consolidate without the
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necessity of putting a Bill before Parliament.
There is one point on consultation. As I have said, I can understand the hurry. But I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, will bear in mind—and I see from the Department of the Environment some familiar faces advising him whom I remember well dealing with this subject ten years ago—that printing and posting is no longer what it was. The Government are required to consult local authorities and local authority associations on these matters; but the printing situation at the moment is so extraordinary and so slow, as is the post, that in practice what happened in this case with the local government association (the National Association of Local Councils) was that the consultative draft arrived in their office on the same day as this Order was laid before Parliament. Fortunately it did not matter, because they had already been in continuous discussion with the Department on this. The Government must realise that consultation has to make allowances for these slownesses, which I do not suppose the 4½p post is going to improve any more than the 3½p one did.
Would the noble Lord look at one detailed point? Under Article 6(1)(b) of the Order a burial authority will be able, if it chooses to be so silly, to provide, for instance, a Roman Catholic chapel on part of a cemetery which has been set apart under Article 5(1), say, for the Methodists. I do not suppose many people would do something as foolish as that, but if you have the wording as loose as it is in the Order, it is technically possible to do so. I think it needs tightening up so that you can put beyond question what the powers are once you have a particular denomination involved on a particular piece of land.
May I draw the noble Lord's attention to Article 18 of the Order. It says:
"Nothing in this Order shall be construed as authorising the disturbance of man remains."
What about women? Might it not be better to amend the Order, if we can do so, and put in two letters, "h" and "u" making the word "human"?
5.21 p.m.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, for the expertise

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which he has brought to his consideration of this Order. It is well known, of course, that he has had a considerable interest in this matter, as he has said, spreading over a period of some ten years. I am grateful for the fact that I have been given some advice by those whom, he has recognised, because I think they have had a very good understanding of his profound knowledge, as well as of his interest, in the subject. Regarding the point which the noble Lord raised regarding Article 18, I do not think it is possible to amend an Order: I think it either ought to go through as it is, or we should have a new Order.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, may I interrupt? That was intended to be a little light joke; but I promise the noble Lord that it can be dealt with under the printing provisions.
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, note will be taken of what the noble Viscount had to say, and if it can be done that seems to me sensible. I think I understand the points he has raised, and I am grateful to him for giving me some indication of the line he would be taking. If I may reply to the points as he raised them this afternoon, he asked what differences are there between, say, paragraphs 21 and 22 of the 26th Schedule and Articles 11 and 5(1) to sub-paragraph 3 of the Order. As regards paragraph 21 of the 26th Schedule, which relates broadly to burials taking place with or without a Church of England service, part of this paragraph is indeed reproduced in Article 11 of the Order. But paragraph 21(2) of the Schedule is dropped because it relates to words in the Burial Laws Amendment Act 1880, which are being repealed by the Order and replaced by Article 5(5).
The noble Viscount will find paragraph 21(3) of the Schedule on the registration of burials reproduced as Article 5(7) of the Order. Paragraph 22 of the Schedule relates to the setting apart of unconsecrated land in a cemetery for a particular denomination. This is integrated into Article 5 of the Order, which deals both with consecration and setting apart.
The noble Viscount inquired as to whether it was highly inconvenient to have part of the powers in the 26th Schedule and part in the Order: why not,
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for instance, put paragraph 11 of the Schedule into the Order? The Government accept the noble Viscount's proposition in principle, but the example he has given is one where it was consciously decided not to transfer the paragraph to the Order. Paragraph 11 of Schedule 26 confers on burial authorities the power to make or adopt by-laws. The Department of the Environment's model cemetery by-laws, with minor additions, have been included in the Order as Schedule 2, Part I; and provisions relating to proper behaviour in local authorities' cemeteries have been included in the Order as Article 14. It is hoped that these provisions will be enough to make it unnecessary for most, if not all, burial authorities to have by-laws. If experience confirms that the by-law making power is no longer needed, the Secretary of State has it in mind to use, in due course, the powers of repeal which he is given in Section 214(3) of the 1972 Act to repeal the paragraph relating to by-laws in Schedule 26.
On the subject of consultation, as the noble Viscount acknowledges, there has been and is considerable hurry to get certain Orders, including this one, brought into force by April 1. But the consultation required on the present Order took place last autumn, as the noble Viscount indicated, and the comments made by the various organisations consulted, including the National Association of Local Councils, were taken into consideration. However, the Order was not made until the present Government took office. At that stage no question arose of further consultations—that is as I understand the position—but at the same time as the Order was laid copies were sent for information to the organisations which had been consulted. Where we have inevitably had to cut the time short is in the interval between the laying of the Order and debate in both Houses. The Government would certainly have preferred to leave a longer interval but were constrained by the approach of April 1, the significance of which in relation to this Order I have endeavoured to explain.
On the question about what is to stop a burial authority, under Article 6(1)(b) of the Order, from providing a chapel for one religious denomination on a part of the cemetery which has been consecrated

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or set apart under Article 5(1) for a different denomination, it is suggested that the wording of Article 6(1)(b) needs tightening up. There is little risk, I am advised, of this happening. It presupposes that a religious denomination who put up the money for the construction of a chapel for their own needs would be content to have it built on land set apart for another denomination, and that the burial authority who had gone to the trouble of setting the land apart for one denomination would then ignore the setting apart. If, however, any authority took such action it seems probable that the matter would be taken to the courts. The Government are advised by their lawyers, with unusual firmness, that the courts would link the provision of a chapel described in lines 2 to 4 of Article 6(1)(b) to the character of the particular part of the cemetery.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, would the noble Lord forgive my interrupting? If there is one thing that I suggest we can do in drafting Orders under this particular provision, it is to make perfectly certain nobody ever has to go to the courts about vires. If this is the answer that has been given to the noble Lord, would he consider putting it perfectly plainly in the Bill so that nobody ever has to go anywhere near the courts in order to see what the powers are?
LORD GARNSWORTHY: My Lords, I am quite sure that what the noble Viscount has said will be taken note of and studied very carefully. I trust that I have answered the points that he raised; if I have overlooked any of them I will certainly write to him.
My Lords, I must confess that I have never in my life been attracted to the subject of cemeteries. I was once a member of a local authority, and any member who was late attending a committee meeting was automatically put on the Cemetery Committee. I managed to avoid being put on the Cemetery Committee. When I realised that I was having to take this Order, I thought it might have been a good thing had I had some earlier experience. When I knew that the noble Viscount was going to take the Order from the other side, I realised that I should be up against a talented and knowledgeable spokesman. I am grateful to him for the
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manner in which he has dealt with the Order. We have had a much lengthier, and a more probing, debate than was the case when the Order was before the other place. I hope that what has been said here not only will be of advantage to your Lordships but may perhaps be read also by Members of another place.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

IMMIGRATION LAWS: SEX DISCRIMINATION
5.32 p.m.
LORD BROCKWAY LORD BROCKWAY rose to ask Her Majesty's Government: Whether they will equalise the immigration rights of men and women by permitting husbands to join wives who are legally resident in the United Kingdom. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Unstarred Question in my name on the Order Paper. We have been listening to a long series of Orders. The noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, was perfectly correct when he suggested that, in listening to them, I was a little impatient. I recognise the very great importance of the subjects which have been discussed. If I had any impatience, it was sublimated by the two maiden speeches made by Ministers from the Front Bench. One was by my old friend Lord Wells-Pestell, who I converted to Socialism in the 'thirties. The other was by the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, a new friend. I also appreciate the fact that he will be replying to this debate. I should like to express appreciation not only of the ability with which they acted as Ministers, but also of the command of the House which they gained. I am confident that they will be able to exert that same influence in the future.
My Lords, I am asking this Unstarred Question with great confidence. First, because of the climate of tolerance and humanity which there now is in the Home Office. That has been reflected in the very early decision to allow Ugandan Stateless husbands of women in this country who are British passport holders to come here, and to allow their student sons to come here. It has been reflected, secondly, in the decision that the quota of refugees from various parts of the world requested by the United Nations Refugee Commission should be accepted in this

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country. We have been the first European country to do so. Thirdly, it is reflected in the fact that the Home Office has indicated that it is now considering an amnesty for those who have committed offences regarding immigration which it was proposed should be treated retrospectively. In view of that new climate in the Home Office, I am very confident about the subject matter of the Question I am now putting.
In addition, my Lords, I want to say that the case I am now going to present is so absolutely convincing, so absolutely unanswerable, that I am perfectly confident it will have the support of your Lordships in all parts of this House. I am not raising a question of immigration control; that is a separate issue. I am raising the question of sex discrimination within our present immigration laws. They can be summarised very simply. The wife of a man legally resident in this country can join him from overseas whatever her nationality: the husband of a woman legally resident here has not the right to join her if he is of another nationality. That is sheer sex discrimination. It ought not to be tolerated within our immigration laws. It is an obsolete idea, a Victorian idea, that the man should be regarded as head of the family, rather than that man and wife should be regarded as equal partners; and that the man is the sole, or the major, breadwinner in any family. That conception is utterly out of date, and it is increasingly untrue that the man is necessarily the sole, or the major, breadwinner in any family. The idea behind this is that the woman is the possession and chattel of the husband.
I appreciate that the Home Secretary has recognised this problem in the case of the Ugandan British passport holders, but this rule, which is the present rule, applies much more widely than only to the Uganda Asians. It applies to nonwhite women from all the Commonwealth territories—but not by any means only non-whites. These last few days I have been deeply impressed by the fact that I have been overwhelmed by letters from British white wives, written by them or on their behalf—wives in this country whose husbands cannot join them, or wives abroad who are not able to come here because their husbands are not per-
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mitted to do so. I have never had in such a few days so many letters from all parts of the world. This is due to the fact that ten days ago the Sunday Times indicated that I had this Question on the Order Paper. I do not know whether it is because the Sunday Times has such a large world circulation or because an agency circulated it, but I have this mass of letters—from America; from Africa, particularly Nigeria; from Asia, even from Australia—complaining at the present discrimination between women and men in our immigration laws, and supporting the Question which I am now putting to the House.
It is difficult to select from these letters. One is from the headmaster of a public school in this country whose daughter wishes to marry an American and wants to be sure that that American will be allowed to join her in this country. One is from a British woman who is married to a Swede, and because the Swede cannot be admitted to this country they have taken refuge in Denmark which has admitted her spouse because she comes from an E.E.C. country. Another comes from the daughter of a Hastings woman who is married to a Chinese student who is required to leave this country on concluding his studies. One is from a distinguished staff member of St. Hilda's College, Oxford, who says that at Nairobi University she met several women in the same position as herself; women who were born and educated here in Britain and who are now faced with the unhappy choice of abandoning their husbands or living for the rest of their lives in a country with which they have few ties.
I am going to read extracts from one letter which has come from America. The British woman concerned, living in New York, says:
"I am not an ardent 'women's libber', believing that true liberation is freedom of the spirit, but now I must admit … I feel like a second-class citizen and worse besides.
"I am a British subject who came to this country in October, 1972, to pursue further studies at a drama school in New York. In November, 1973, I married an American citizen and we had planned to live in England … How terrible it is to have one's hopes shattered just by making a telephone call—a call to the British Consulate here in New York a few days ago, to learn about this law. I do not think I have ever experienced such utter dismay and thorough outrage… Am I to look forward to the prospect of being cut off from my own country or from my husband? This to me is utterly unbearable, and I think no

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one should be forced into having to decide on this sort of priority.
"This is a disgrace and an outrage, let alone just downright cruel to British women."
My Lords, to balance that letter from America, I should like to read extracts from one from Nigeria. The writer says:
"I am a British woman, born and bred in Britain, married to a non-British subject. Since my marriage, I have found to my cost that the British law discriminates against women in my position with a result that many British women are suffering extreme hardship and many, many others, while not suffering hardship, are in a position of extreme insecurity…
"When a British woman marries a foreigner, her husband is not allowed to live and work in Britain. She is therefore virtually evicted from her own country, since obviously she will wish to be with her husband… In some emergency situation (for example, a severe illness, which cannot he treated in one's husband's country), a woman may be obliged to return to Britain, and is thus forced to be separated from her husband.
"In my own case, I spent some months in Britain whilst I was having my first baby. My husband was in Britain for six months at that time but was not allowed to work. This meant that for those six months neither of us was working, and at the same time we had to cater for the expenses of a new baby."
I recognise that if a woman can prove hardship to the Immigration Appeals Tribunal her husband from abroad may be allowed to stay with her. That she should have to ask for such permission is in itself a humiliation. It is often refused, and the definition of "hardship" excludes poverty and destitution: they are not regarded as a hardship when one goes to the Appeals Tribunal. We are arguing this afternoon not for a compassionate concession of that humiliating kind, but for the woman to have her husband with her as a right.
I know only one argument that is made against the case which I am now putting to the House. It is that the right might be abused; that marriages of convenience might be arranged to allow an otherwise illegal or undesirable immigrant to enter Britain. I recognise that these abuses occur: I have taken part in them myself. I did so when we were fighting Hitler and the Nazis, when a young woman in Vienna, prominent in the struggle against Hitler, could escape imprisonment and death only by marrying a British man. I tried to arrange it, but I did not succeed. I am not sure that I ought to say this, but the man
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concerned is now a Member of this House.
My Lords, I am not suggesting that the abuses in these cases are justified. My point is that they are already taking place in the cases where husbands are here and where the women are allowed to come to them. Look at the "underground" Press in this country and you will see every week advertisements of men who are prepared, to their financial gain, to marry women abroad, so that they can come here—married for three months and then divorced. The extension of the right I am urging would make no difference at all to this problem of abuse. May I remind the House that the Home Office already has the right to intervene wherever it considers that an abuse may occur. I doubt very much whether the number of cases of abuse of this kind is sufficiently large to make interferences with privacy justified and to have a general rule, but nevertheless I suggest to the Home Office that it would be possible to say that for a period of years immigrant status should be allowed only while the marriage lasts. This argument of abuse could be met on those lines.
In conclusion, I wish to draw the attention of your Lordships to a grave humiliation and cruelty which arises from sex discrimination in our immigration laws. If a British woman is married to a foreigner and gives birth to a child abroad, that child is not recognised as hers when she travels to this country. A child, even an infant, may not legally appear on its mother's passport. If by chance it does, when she reaches Heathrow or a British port of entry and an immigration officer discovers that the child has been born abroad, on the passport against that child's name is entered "Six months only". The child is supposed to have a separate identity certificate. At Heathrow, if a mother—a British woman—comes with two children, one of whom has been born in this country and the other has been born abroad, she may take the child who has been born in this country through the gateway for British citizens while the child who has not been born in this country has to go through the other gateway under the care of the hostess of the airplane.
I have a large number of letters on this subject. I will read one from a petition

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of six women which I received yesterday. They write:
"We, the undersigned, all British-born women married to foreign husbands, are protesting about the sex discrimination we experience when bringing our children to our own country, Britain. Children in the same family are treated in different ways, depending upon whether they are British-born or foreign-born. A British male parent married to a foreign wife has no problem with his children, his foreign adopted children or stepchildren; but our children, born to us overseas, are given a different status from the mother. No British woman can tolerate this, as by placing mothers and children in different categories the family is split."
My Lords, I have here ten cases and I shall be forwarding them all to the Home Office for consideration. I will quote from only one of them:
"I am Mrs. M., British born and holding a British passport. My husband is Nigerian. My two older children—a boy aged seven and a girl aged five (both born in Britain) travel on my British passport and enter Britain with no problems. My third child, born February, 1973, in Nigeria has problems. In July, 1973, I had to travel to Britain because my mother was seriously ill in hospital. My baby was four months old and the immigration officer (British High Commission, Ibadan) allowed my child to travel with me for compassionate reasons—he was given a British entry certificate for six months. I returned to Nigeria in September, 1973.
"In December (my baby now being ten months old) I had to travel again to Britain because of the death of my mother. My baby's six months entry certificate to Britain had expired and I applied for renewal. I was held up for one week as the British High Commissioner did not want to renew. Finally the baby's entry certificate was extended to January 26, 1974, and by that time I found my stay in Britain was limited to 15 days.
"To make doubly sure of me they cancelled my British passport from January 26, 1974, although my passport was valid to August, 1975."
My Lords, there was a case reported in the Press last week of a British woman married to a Spaniard. She had a girl of three, born in Spain; she had a boy, four months old, born in Britain. In last Monday's Guardian the grandmother of the children, Mrs. Audrey Brookbank of Walton-on-Thames—I told the Minister I was not going to give names; I apologise, but her name was given in the Guardian—the grandmother of the children stated:
"When my daughter brings the children to see us, she and the baby go through the British gate on my daughter's British passport, but the little girl has to go through the foreigners' gate."
Two children of a British mother at Heathrow! Says the Guardian:
"The problem arose when Mrs. Brookbank's daughter applied for a renewal of her British passport and the addition to it of the names of the two children. The baby's name was added because he was British, but the Passport Office insisted that the little girl must have her own Spanish passport."
I am pleading that a British wife should have the right to her own children, wherever those children are born. The United States of America has set us an example. The United States recognises the principle of the mother's right, and wherever the children of the mother are born they are admitted to America on equal terms. I hope the fact that we now have such a tolerant and humane Government here will mean that these new principles are accepted in Britain.
My Lords, I have put the case for the ending of sex discrimination within our immigration laws. These facts probably were unknown previously to many Members of the House. I think they are possibly unknown to many members of the Government. I ask for the support of Members of this House to see that the rights of women, and human equality, may now be recognised.
6.2 p.m.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, or anyone else, will not consider that merely because I do not make a half-hour's speech on an Unstarred Question that it is not an important subject, but I really think that perhaps Unstarred Questions warrant fairly brief speeches. Also, if the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, will forgive me, I will not touch on the last half of his speech because, with respect, I think it has nothing to do with the Question; it is a matter for the British Nationality Act.
All I would ask the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich is whether or not the present Government are continuing with their study of this exceedingly difficult matter, because I would suggest that not until that study is completed is any form of answer capable of being given to the question about children born abroad to mothers who are United Kingdom citizens by birth. Therefore, I shall confine myself quite briefly to the first part of the speech of the noble Lord,

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Lord Brockway, which is, in fact, the Question that he has on the Order Paper.
I am also fairly confident that the noble Lord, Lord Harris, his colleagues in the Home Office, and the right honourable gentleman the Home Secretary, will find this question a good deal more difficult than one would imagine simply by listening to the noble Lord, Lord Brockway. It is not only a matter to cause one considerable anxiety and distress but one which, upon examination, results in very great problems when one simply attempts the sweeping solutions to it that have been suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Brockway. I can tell the House what the policy used to be under the previous Administration, but perhaps that is neither here nor there. I believe it is worth while remembering (and I believe it to be correct) that what we do on the immigration control side is in line with what is done by many other countries. We are at least in line with international practice and law on this matter.
My Lords, secondly, I would remind the House (and this does not appear to vary according to whichever Government is in office) that Britain is apparently a highly attractive place and one to which those British women who marry foreign husbands, whether Commonwealth or alien, apparently wish to return with their husbands and families. It is a country to which a large number of foreign men wish to come in order to marry British women resident here, and no doubt settle to bring up their families. This is a small island. Goodness knows! there are enough problems as it is in finding housing for those who already live here. We are to have a debate next week on race relations, and if I have said it once from the Dispatch Box I have said it fifty times, race relations are a matter of balance between the indigenous population and the incoming population which one cannot lightly overlook if one is to have harmony on the race front in this country. To open the floodgates is not likely to be very successful in promoting race harmony.
These are some of the aspects which come into this question. I think they are likely to be matters which will give the noble Lord, Lord Harris, cause for thought, and which certainly vexed us when we were dealing with these heart-
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rending problems of individual cases such as were mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Brockway. Perhaps I may remind your Lordships' House of the genesis of the rule that the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, has so trenchantly criticised. I quote from a Written Answer in the OFFICIAL REPORT of another place (30/1/69, cols. 366–7):
"During 1968, 1,676 Commonwealth citizens were admitted for marriage to women resident in the United Kingdom. These men were admitted under a concessionary provision, in addition to the 3,828 adult males admitted under the employment voucher scheme. Their numbers have risen steeply over the last year or so and are now on such a scale that it seems that marriage is being used by many young men of working age as a means of entering, working and settling in this country. This abuse of the concession is inconsistent with the general scheme of Commonwealth immigration control, particularly the employment voucher scheme. The Government have, therefore, decided that the concession under which male Commonwealth citizens are allowed to settle here in right of their wife must be withdrawn.
"In future, the admission of husbands and fiancés from the Commonwealth for settlement will be restricted to cases presenting special features, and it will be a requirement that an entry certificate must have been obtained. Consistently with this, men who have been admitted as visitors, students or for other temporary purposes, will not be permitted to settle here following marriage, save in exceptional circumstances.
"Account will be taken in individual cases of any special circumstances, whether of a family nature or otherwise, which makes exclusion from the United Kingdom undesirable; but men, whether husbands or fiancés, seeking admission under this special dispensation must obtain an entry certificate before setting out for the United Kingdom."
That was Mr. Callaghan as Home Secretary withdrawing the concession. He did so for the reasons set out in the Written Answer. Since that time, we have equated the position of the Commonwealth citizens and the aliens to all intents and purposes for getting into this country; we do not have employment vouchers now, but entry certificates.
My Lords, I invite the noble Lord, Lord Harris, if he can do no more this afternoon, at least to say whether he thinks that the pressure on the United Kingdom has slackened since the days in early 1969 when that statement was made. I would tend to think—although I do not know a great deal about this—that the lengthy queues of people (indeed, United Kingdom passport holders) in various

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parts of the world, patiently waiting their turn to get an entry certificate under the quota scheme, is evidence enough that there is substantial pressure from that source alone. Now we are told that there are many Americans, Swedes, Africans, and goodness knows how many other nationalities not under the Commonwealth quota scheme at all (Australians and so on), who would also like to come. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Harris, will probably be able to confirm my impression that there is still a very large number of people who would like, if this concession were restored, to take advantage of it. If so, we must calculate whether this would be to the advantage of this country any more than it would be to the advantage of those who come in what must ex hypothesi be crowded and difficult circumstances for their settlement.
The other matter of which I should perhaps just remind the House is the extent to which the practice has perhaps developed in dealing with these cases since 1969. That Written Answer appeared to deal almost entirely with the personal circumstances of the man, the husband or the fiancé, as they presented themselves at the time he wished to arrive here. This has been extended, I should think by administrative practice, over the years, and when I last saw cases of this sort the consideration included all the circumstances of a family, wife, husband and any children. It included cases not only of people wishing to come in as fiancés or husbands to people resident in this country, but families wishing to return as a family unit where the wife was of United Kingdom origin having lived for some time in countries abroad, whether in Iraq, America or wherever it may have been.
In all these cases the individual circumstances—the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, referred to hardship—which would apply if the family was not allowed into this country are carefully weighed. I am not aware of any definition of "hardship", and certainly the cases that I looked at myself were at a stage much earlier than going to any Immigration Appeals Tribunal, because that stage is only reached if in the first place permission is not given by the Home Office or by an entry clearance officer abroad. Many cases are in fact allowed through
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without any recourse to the Immigration Appeals Tribunal at all. They are allowed on presentation of hardship or good reasons without any appeal. The noble Lord is not right on his facts on this point, because I have actually had these cases through my hands; I have had them recommended to me, and I have agreed with the advice that people in this category should be allowed to stay in this country. There has been no question of appeal.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I am very sorry, but my notes have gone up to Hansard and I cannot quote the actual definition. There is a definition of "hardship" at the Immigration Appeals Tribunal; it excludes poverty and destitution. The consideration is as to whether the woman can go to the country where her husband lives, either on the grounds of background, social conditions, culture, or health. I would have been able to give that definition except that my notes have gone elsewhere.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, be that as it may; the noble Lord may be right. As I say, I did not examine a great many of these cases. What I am saying is that you do not necessarily have to go to the Immigration Appeals Tribunal at all.
LORD BROCKWAY: The noble Viscount said I was wrong.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: I am saying that I am not aware of a definition, and the sort of cases that do not go to the Immigration Appeals Tribunal do not get qualified by any such definitions so far as I am aware. If I am wrong the noble Lord, Lord Harris, will immediately put me right when he speaks.
We are not in a position this evening to take any decision on this, anyway. I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Harris, will be able to tell us what the Government are thinking. I would simply counsel him to go fairly gently and carefully in this, weighing up, no doubt, as certainly the previous Administration did, the sort of hardship cases the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, has quoted against the very practical disadvantages of allowing wholesale relaxation of this rule, some of which at least I have attempted to touch on this evening.

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Therefore, I hope the noble Lord will be able to tell us that his right honourable friend is not going to make a precipitate decision on this matter but rather one that is carefully weighed, and no doubt one that we shall have an opportunity to argue about on a future occasion.
LORD O'HAGAN: My Lords, before the noble Viscount sits down, may I ask him a question, because I find myself puzzled by his speech? As I understand it, he did not impugn the evidence put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Brockway. He mentioned the need for a thorough review of citizenship, but may I ask him whether he had any other positive suggestions to put forward as to what should be done about the very real problems mentioned by Lord Brockway? Does he really feel that the present state of affairs is satisfactory, because that, I felt, was the implication of what he said. Perhaps I misunderstood.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: My Lords, I have sat down, but in courtesy to the noble Lord perhaps I might say one more word. The noble Lord, Lord Brockway, raised two questions, one of which is on the Order Paper and one not. The one which is not I did not seek to comment upon at all. The one which is I suggested is a difficult one, but it is being handled administratively at the moment in a way which does not produce the totally unfair result the noble Lord suggested. I was leaving it to the noble Lord, Lord Harris, to say whether or not the system commended itself to the present Government, and that, after all, is not something on which I can comment in any way.
6.16 p.m.
EARL AMHERST: My Lords, from these Benches we would warmly support all that Lord Brockway has said so trenchantly and firmly. I wish to intervene for only a very brief moment to draw attention to, and possibly find a way to a solution of, a matter which I hope the House will agree is a cause of great injustice to a young British citizen. It arises from a mistake made many years ago by someone in the Foreign Office. It may be that the point I am raising is a little wide of the Question Lord Brockway is asking, but I think the House will agree it has sufficient relevance
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and is sufficiently pertinent to allow me to raise it.
The name of the young man is James Hugh Maxwell. I do not know him, but I knew his father, who was resident director for B.O.A.C. in the Middle East and based on Cairo. In 1941 he sent his wife to Cape Town because of the unsettled conditions in Cairo. It was in Cape Town that this young man was born. Until 1949, I understand, there was no such thing as a South African citizen, and the status of British people resident there was that of a British subject. Therefore, this young man was a British subject from his birth. Both his parents were British. His mother was temporarily resident in Cape Town. In December, 1949, the South African Citizenship Act was passed. This appeared to make the young man a South African citizen but it seems he retained his status as a British subject, because in 1950 his father applied to the Foreign Office for a passport for the son and a British passport was issued and granted.
This was renewed regularly until the latter half of 1972, some twenty years later, when the young man, then resident and working in Paris, applied for the usual renewal. He received a letter dated December 14, 1972, from the British Consul-General in Paris stating, blandly, that no passport could be issued as the original had been granted—and really, my Lords, you will have to accept that this was said—through an administrative error. That, I think, was a remarkably pompous statement. Had his father known this fact in 1950, when he originally applied for the passport, he would have taken steps to have the matter put straight. For some twenty years he was, I maintain, justifiably confident that all was in order, as the passport had been regularly renewed.
It seems that this refusal came about through the passing of the South African Act 1962, which apparently revoked the status of British subjects granted under the Act of 1949. The first of the remedies suggested by the authorities now is that the young man should take out a South Africa passport. In the current political situation in that country I think this is an odious suggestion to make to any young British citizen. The second suggested remedy is that he should acquire British citizenship through naturalisation, which means that he has to give up his job and

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career overseas, come back here, find a new job, wait five years, and then undertake to reside in this country. This, I submit, is a gross infringement of the rights of the subject. I submit, too, my Lords, that the South Africa Act of 1962 in its revocation of rights given twenty years before represents an intolerable retrospective piece of legislation.
I hope that when the noble Lord, Lord Harris, comes to reply—and I have given him notice of this question—he will indicate that the matter can be taken up immediately with the appropriate Department and that now a British passport can be issued to this young man, so ending this injustice. I have been informed that owing to the ramifications of these various Acts it may be argued that there are legal difficulties in the way of doing what I suggest. I would not for one moment suggest in your Lordships' House that anybody should break the law, but I do suggest that it can occasionally be bent to everybody's advantage. Also, I understand that Ministers have discretionary powers in this connection, which in the past have been used at short notice. If such a course is really honestly not possible, would the noble Lord say in his reply that the Government would welcome a short Bill to amend this Act and so bring an end to this unhappy situation? If I can be of any assistance to the noble Lord in obtaining further information, or if he would care to discuss the matter with me outside, I hope he will not hesitate to let me know. Although it is a little late in the day, may I offer my congratulations on his maiden speech which he made earlier.
6.22 p.m.
LORD GARDINER: My Lords, may I very shortly support the Question posed by my noble friend Lord Brockway? I can do so shortly first, because he made his own case with his usual skill, and secondly because this is of course a repeat of the debate which we had on July 19, 1971, on the then Immigration Bill on a number of Amendments moved by the noble Lord, Lord Wade. I ventured to say then that I was old-fashioned, that I thought some things were right and some things were wrong and that I did not see how it could be other than wrong that while a Jamaican man who gets a work permit to work
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here has of course a legal right to have his wife and children with him, a Jamaican nurse who is persuaded to help us in our hospitals and has an invalid husband to support has no such right. This is exactly the same point to-day.
There is, of course, a discretion, but if there is a dispute it has to go to a tribunal, and all my information is that it is the rarest thing for a tribunal ever to make a finding in favour of an English wife. The National Association of Community Relations Councils tell me that only in the very severest circumstances, where a wife can show that if permission were refused she would undergo considerable hardship through difference of language, race or social customs, or would suffer political persecution in her husband's country, is the appeals tribunal prepared to accept that a husband can live in this country with his wife. In practice, as I understand it, almost the only case is where an Englishwoman marries one of the Islamic faith and can prove to the tribunal that if she went with her husband to the Sudan, Nigeria, or wherever it might be, she would be completely ostracised by the whole of her husband's family.
I want, if I may, to make what is perhaps a rather newer point. I said in 1971 that I was concerned only with husbands and wives who I believed, should not be separated by law: I was not concerned with fiancés. There is one point that has come to my attention on which I think the law can be very hard on fiancés, and that is that, as I understand it, the Home Office will not say how they would exercise the discretion if the couple married until they do marry. Perhaps I may be permitted to quote a case on which I had some correspondence with the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross. An Englishwoman born and bred here, earning her own living is, I think, a teacher. She is engaged to a Portuguese, a highly skilled welder who could not find work in Portugal and who for some years now has been living and working in France. The question was: has she to become an outcast from her own country?
The noble Viscount was kind enough to write to me about the case. It is impossible apparently for her to find out if she does marry him where they can live or how they can live. I asked the noble

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Viscount, if the English will not let them live here, and if the French will not let them live in France, what are they supposed to do? He said, "I suppose they could always live in Portugal"—where, of course, neither of them can find work. This is really a terrible position for fiancés to be in when they cannot find out what is going to happen, and the point is exactly the same. If this teacher had been a male of course nobody would drive him out of his own country because he marries a Portuguese girl. Here he is, this is his home country; here he has a job as a teacher. It is simply because the teacher is a woman that she is liable to become an outcast from her own country not knowing whether, if she marries him, there is anywhere in the world where they can live together or how they can earn a living.
My Lords, this Government have by their statements become highly committed to ending sex discrimination. I know, and we all know, that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary is a very humane man. We must of course bear in mind that he has been in Office for only three weeks and he cannot have mastered all the various departmental lines which we know to be in the Home Office, but I, and I think many of my noble friends will be very disappointed if the Question which my noble friend Lord Brockway has raised will not some day, if not to-day, be answered very differently from the way in which it has been answered in the past.
6.28 p.m.
BARONESS WHITE: My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord and to the House for not having put my name on the list of speakers, but I have only recently returned from Wales and I was not sure whether I should be able to be in my place in time. I thought it would be unfortunate if women appeared to be indifferent to the Question posed by my noble friend Lord Brockway. I do not want to go into details at this relatively late hour, particularly as my noble and learned friend Lord Gardiner has reminded us that we discussed this subject in some of its aspects fairly thoroughly on the Immigration Act. It appears to me that one should use this occasion to express one's entire repugnance to the view that sex should be the guide in this matter. I am aware of the international legal complications that arise, but as a pure question of prin-
790
ciple I as a woman find it entirely repugnant that my future could have been determined by the considerations which now prevail. My late husband was born in this country and there was of course no problem at all. His elder brother was born in South Africa, and had I for any reason married the elder rather than the younger son it is conceivable that I might find myself in a situation where it is suggested that I might go and live in South Africa—a state of affairs which any noble Lord who knows me would fully realise that I would find intolerable.
Having stated the principle, with which I have no doubt whatever that my noble friend Lord Harris of Greenwich and his right honourable friend the Secretary of State are entirely in accord, and reminding him of the statement in the gracious Speech about the determination of the Government to end sex discrimination, I should nevertheless like to draw attention to one particular aspect of this problem which I think is disturbing to all of us who have read the accounts of mothers with children born in different circumstances and the difficulties which have arisen in that particular context. It may take quite a while to sort out the major problems but I should very much appreciate it if my noble friend, even to-night, could indicate that special consideration would be given to this question of children in the same family born to the same mother but with different nationality. Surely at least until they are of an age at which they can obtain individual passports, that is, 16, they should be permitted to be on their mother's passport regardless of their nationality.
It should be possible to legislate somehow in this sense. If that could be done at least as an earnest of intent it would be very much appreciated. It is entirely wrong that young children of the same family should be made, at that tender age, to feel different one from the other. It is very damaging psychologically, and I hope that on that point at least my noble friend can give us some assurance.
6.31 p.m.
BARONESS ELLES: My Lords, I wonder whether I may intervene briefly on this subject. I too apologise for not putting my name down, but, as your Lordships will know, I am very seldom in this country and this is a subject I have very much at heart. All of us were

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very moved by the cases that the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, has read out tonight. One of the great difficulties in these cases of discrimination is that we feel very deeply for the suffering of individuals and we have to try to find a principle with which to alleviate the suffering of these particular individuals.
So far we have not really got to the kernel of the problem, because surely the duty of any Government is to protect their own nationals first of all in the field of employment, and enable them to earn their own living. I would add immediately regardless of race, sex and nationality of origin. It seems to me that this is really the problem. Indeed, it was mentioned in one of the letters read out by the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, when he said that one of his correspondents had said, "I cannot live and work in the United Kingdom". The question is not that it is the wife's nationality or the husband's nationality that matters, but that the husband cannot earn his living in this country. It therefore follows from that that if a woman wishes to have discrimination removed and be allowed to live with her husband in this country, which I think is absolutely right because any form of discrimination is abhorrent to us, she should then, in like manner as any male national of this country, be able to maintain her husband. If she had the possibility in this country to maintain her husband with an adequate and proper income we should not be in the difficult situation that we now are, with wives wishing to bring in foreign husbands and the foreign husbands wanting the right to work in this country in order to maintain their British national wives.
Two other points follow from this which I would ask the Government to consider. One is that they press with all earnestness the rights of British national males married to foreign women abroad in foreign countries to have the right to work in those countries with the same assiduity with which they are considering allowing foreign nationals to come to work in this country. Secondly, I hope that they will pursue the policy of the last Government to create better and equal opportunities for women to earn their living and adequate salaries to maintain their husbands and children in this country.
6.34 p.m.
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH: My Lords, may I make two preliminary points before coming to the substance of the matter raised by my noble friend. First of all, in relation to passports there is the question of children. This my noble friend Lady White raised. This is a matter, as she would know, that is primarily for my right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary, but the Government are very much alive to this issue and I will see that what she said is drawn to the attention of my right honourable friend. It will have to be looked at on the basis of what she said, and I will certainly indicate her views and those of other noble Lords to my right honourable friend. The second question of a preliminary character was raised by my noble friend Lord Brockway and the noble Viscount opposite, and the noble Earl, Lord Amherst. This deals with the general question of the law of nationality. This was dealt with in the Election Manifesto of the Labour Party at the recent General Election, where it was indicated that we proposed to review the law of nationality with a view to legislation, and that will be done.
I now turn to the substance of the matter. This is one of a number of aspects of immigration control to which the Government are now giving close consideration. The elimination of the restriction on the admission of all husbands in right of their wives, which my noble friend advocates, could not be achieved administratively; it would require an amendment of the Immigration Rules which would have to be laid before Parliament. The implications of such a change clearly require the most careful thought, and I cannot to-day give any indication of what the Government's conclusion will be. I should, however, like to say something about the history of the restriction, and to give an indication of some of the considerations which the Government will have to take into account in reaching their decision. I shall of course inform my right honourable friend of what my noble friend and other noble Lords have said in relation to certain cases, and any that are sent to us will be carefully considered so that he will be aware of the views expressed and the particular cases cited.

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The history of the matter is that before January 30, 1969, a Commonwealth citizen married to a woman resident in the United Kingdom was normally allowed to live here, although he had no statutory right of settlement on the strength of his marriage. During 1968 the numbers of young men admitted from the Commonwealth for marriage rose steeply. It was considered that the explanation for this was that the employment voucher scheme was being circumvented by the use of marriage as a means of obtaining entry here for work and settlement. My right honourable friend the then Home Secretary, now the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, therefore, decided that the admission of husbands and male fiancés from the Commonwealth must be restricted to cases where special considerations made exclusion from the United Kingdom undesirable. The restriction was applied to husbands as well as to fiancés for the obvious reason that it could otherwise have been evaded by contracting a marriage of convenience outside the United Kingdom or by entering as a visitor and then marrying after admission.
The present Immigration Rules maintain this position. The provision for exceptions is set out in paragraph 47 of the Rules for Control of Entry of Commonwealth Citizens (HC 79) which lays it down that an entry clearance will be granted to enable a husband to join his wife who is settled here if the Secretary of State is satisfied that there are special considerations, whether of a family nature or otherwise, which render exclusion undesirable; for example, because of the degree of hardship which, in the particular circumstances of the case, would be caused if the wife had to live outside the United Kingdom in order to be with her husband. There is a corresponding provision for foreign nationals in paragraph 42 of the Rules for Control on Entry of E.E.C. and other non-Commonwealth nationals (HC 81); and the rule for fiancés is similar.
I am well aware of the criticism made to-day that the Rules are harsh and oppressive. Nevertheless, it is only fair to point out that under their provisions "hardship" can be interpreted widely. First, there is the hardship that there might be if the wife had to live in her husband's country; for example, the difficulty that might face a woman settling in
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a wholly alien environment in a strange country. Then there might be such factors as an adverse effect on her health, or practical difficulties in following her chosen occupation. There might be a disruption of the children's education or a problem of invalid parents who are in need of the wife's support. I cannot give a precise figure, but some 200 or 300 husbands or fiancés are admitted because of these kinds of considerations from the Commonwealth each year. A refusal to allow a husband to settle here is subject to appeal to the immigration appeal authorities who decide whether there is an exceptional case.
My right honourable friend the Home Secretary is, however, aware that there are cases where the application of these criteria of hardship has been far too rigid. Some couples have had to leave this country against all the dictates of common sense. I would assure the House that my right honourable friend will be examining individual cases as they arise in the future as sympathetically as he can. It may be said, "Well, if the Government are prepared to interpret the existing rules with sympathy and compassion, why not sweep them away altogether?" Then husbands and fiancés would be allowed in automatically and the problem could be resolved. But here we come up against a formidable difficulty.
I can do no better than repeat to your Lordships the broad effect of what my right honourable friend the Home Secretary said on this point in another place this afternoon. He told the other place that were he to admit husbands on the same basis as wives this would undoubtedly lead to a substantial and continuing new wave of male immigration, particularly from the Indian subcontinent. As your Lordships are aware, arranged marriages, often with no prior acquaintanceship, is the common cultural practice in some parts of the Indian subcontinent. It is not for us casually to judge a cultural difference, but we are entitled to take note of its likely consequences. It would make it much more likely that many girls of Indian and Pakistani origin settled in this country would contract marriages with husbands in India or Pakistan—
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS: Or Bangladesh.
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH:— rather than among their own community here. My right honourable friend said that he must take this fact, with its substantial effect upon our rate of immigration, into account, anxious though he is to find an equitable solution to this problem.
That is the central problem now confronting us. We cannot shrug it off as being a matter of absolutely no account. The danger is that if this matter were to be mishandled by the present Government or by their successors we could experience a substantial new wave of immigration. The Government recognise that there is still a need to maintain a balance between the number of immigrants entering this country and the capacity of the country to absorb them. We have a responsibility towards the immigrant population not to put them as individuals into a situation where integration is made impossible or very difficult. This situation could arise if people were to be admitted in such large numbers that fear and resentment—both enemies of effective integration—were to be increasingly felt by the indigenous population. It is for this reason that we accept the need to control the flow of immigrants.
These then are the considerations facing us. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Brockway for raising the matter. I know that it has been worrying him and others for some time. I hope the House will acknowledge that there are real difficulties, and that my noble friend will be reassured by the determination of my right honourable friend the Home Secretary to re-examine this problem as part of the general review of immigration policy that is now taking place. In the meantime, I can assure your Lordships that my right honourable friend will give the most sympathetic attention to the cases mentioned in the debate today.

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