Sitting of 24 June 1974

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRAYERS
  DEATH OF A MEMBER
  Mr. Speaker: I regret to have to inform the House of the death of Geoffrey William Rhodes, esquire, Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East, and I desire, on behalf of the House, to express our sense of the loss we have sustained and our sympathy with the relatives of the hon. Member.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  WALES

    Pit Closures
    Mr. D. E. Thomasasked the Secretary of State for Wales what is his estimate of the number of jobs required to replace employment lost as a result of proposed pit closures in Wales.
    The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. John Morris): Of the two collieries in Wales subject to closure proposals, Brynlliw is to continue production pending a further review and Ogilvie is the subject of further representations now being considered by the National Coal Board. I cannot, therefore, at this stage anticipate the number of jobs that may be lost.
    Mr. Thomas: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman assure us that his Department will produce job predictions and the estimated shortfall in employment in Wales over the next 10 years? Will he also say whether he accepts the projection of a shortfall of 132,000 male jobs by Professor Graham Rees, of the research department of the Commission on the Constitution?
    Mr. Morris: That is a very broad question. If the hon. Gentleman will put down specific Questions on it, I shall seek to deal with them. However, he will be relieved to know, as regards the coal industry, that there are 1,300 vacancies to be filled in the South Wales coalfield alone.
    Mr. Kinnock: Will my right hon. and learned Friend take note that the news that a further review is to be conducted by the National Coal Board of Ogilvie colliery is received with some gratitude, that the necessity for maintaining the coal industry remains as it always was, and that it is contributed to by giving an assured future to the coal industry in general which in turn will attract men back into the industry and into it for the first time?
    Mr. Morris: That must be right, and I am grateful for my hon. Friend's remarks. As he knows, I have been associated with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy in the issues which have been raised. As regards the industry as a whole, however, the best indication of the future is the current investment plans, especially the £3 million which is to be spent in the main drift at Betws, the further investment at Cynheidre and that at Taff Merthyr and Point of Air. These are obviously of great importance to the coal industry of Wales.

    Kilbrandon Report
    Mr. Ioan Evansasked the Secretary of State for Wales what information or observations he has received from the Welsh Council on the Kilbrandon Report; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. John Morris: My hon. Friend will by now have received a copy of the Welsh Council's report entitled "Observations on the Kilbrandon Report" which was published on 14th June. The council's views will be taken into account by the Government in their consideration of the Kilbrandon Report.
    Mr. Evans: I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for that reply. Does he realise that the document from the Welsh Council is consistent with the evidence given by the Labour Party to the Kilbrandon Commission, with the main recommendations of the Kilbrandon

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    Report and with the conference this weekend at Llandrindod Wells, and that whereas there is a willingness in Wales to have an elected assembly there is complete rejection of nationalism and separatism?
    Mr. Morris: As regards separatism and federalism, there is an enormous consistency in the rejection of that kind of proposal. The body suggested by the Welsh Council has a different emphasis. But the council recommended the setting up of a directly-elected assembly, which is a matter of some significance.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: Does the Secretary of State agree that, in addition to the unanimous rejection by the Welsh Council of separatism or federalism, the council also unanimously supported the continuance of the office of Secretary of State for Wales and of the Welsh Office? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman take this opportunity to say that he agrees wholeheartedly with all those views?
    Mr. Morris: In the course of Question Time it would not be open to me to deal wholly with all the matters set out by the council. There is a difference in the emphasis put by the council on that and the many other proposals in the Kilbrandon Report. We have made our position clear as regards the importance that the Government attach to the responsibility and office of the Secretary of State.
    Mr. D. E. Thomas: Can the Secretary of State assure us that the proposals in the Welsh Council's document for a nominated element in the membership of the Welsh Council will be rejected and that the Government will have no truck with the idea of the creation of a further House of Lords in Cardiff?
    Mr. Morris: The Government have made their views clear as regards the options open to them to consider. I know that the Labour Party in Wales made its views abundantly clear yesterday. At this juncture I cannot carry the matter further.
    Mr. Tom Ellis: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that moves towards devolution of the domestic authority of nation States to their various constituent peoples are taking place all over Europe
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    and are not confined simply to the nations of the United Kingdom? Does he agree that in the light of the growth of economic centralism this is a healthy counter-reaction?
    Mr. Morris: My hon. Friend has known over the years where he and I and our other colleagues stand on the importance to be attached to devolution to ensure the better government of Wales and the Welsh people.
    Mr. Hooson: Dees the right hon. and learned Gentleman intend to give great weight to the views of the nominated body on this proposal, especially when that body depends on the nomination of the Secretary of State for Wales for its presence? Is it therefore surprising that it wishes to continue with that office? What steps does the right hon. and learned Gentleman intend to take to fulfil the unanimous proposal in the Kilbrandon Report that in any elected assembly there should be proper safeguards for minorities through proportional representation?
    Mr. Morris: The Welsh Council is a nominated body and Kilbrandon was a Royal Commission. The council, which made this report, was appointed by my predecessor, not by me. The Government are ready and willing to listen to all observations and comments before reaching a final conclusion in the White Paper which they are to present to Parliament. We hope to hear from the hon. and learned Gentleman and the Liberal Party in due course.

    Water Charges
    Mr. Cledwyn Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received about the effect of increased water charges upon industry in Anglesey; what reply he has sent; and if he will make a statement.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Edward Rowlands): My right hon. and learned Friend has received representations from my right hon. Friend and from the Isle of Anglesey Borough Council. In our replies it has been explained that the increased charges are a direct result of the previous administration's Water Act. The Welsh National Water Development Authority will be reviewing its charging policy.
    Mr. Hughes: Is my hon. Friend aware that the availability of water at reasonable rates is or was an important inducement to new industries to come to development areas like Anglesey? Is he further aware that excessive rates are a grave deterrent? In the consultations that he and the Secretary of State are to have with Lord Brecon and his colleagues, may I ask him to bear this point in mind?
    Mr. Rowlands: We will most certainly bear that matter in mind. As an intention of our good faith, I remind my right hon. Friend that one of the first things we did was to meet Lord Brecon and to obtain from him an assurance and a commitment to reduce the charge for metered industrial consumers to 50p pet thousand gallons.
    Mr. Speaker: In view of the exceptional circumstances I propose to invite the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnor (Mr. Roderick) to ask a Question of which he gave the required notice, but which was omitted from the Order Paper in error.
    Mr. Roderick: I am grateful to you, Mr. Speaker, for repairing the omission. I wish to ask the Secretary of State for Wales what advice he has given to the Welsh National Water Development Authority on equalisation of water charges for 1975–76 and what was the response.
    Mr. Rowlands: None as yet. This is a matter for the authority to consider in the first place. My right hon. and learned Friend will be meeting the chairman and members next month.
    Mr. Roderick: In view of that reply, may I ask whether my hon. Friend appreciates the urgency of this matter relating to charges as we as elected Members do? Will he impress on the authority that my constituents and others in the area will not tolerate waiting until the 1980s for a solution to this vital matter?
    Mr. Rowlands: I can assure my hon. Friend that this issue must be resolved as speedily as possible, and we shall convey that view to the chairman of the authority.
    Mr. Cledwyn Hughes: Can my hon. Friend go a little further and indicate when we are likely to receive a statement on this matter? He will know from his visits to my constituency and other areas
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    how deep is the concern about the grotesquely high charges which are being imposed on people. Will he now confirm that equalisation can be put into effect by means of the existing law and without need for any amendment?
    Mr. Rowlands: I believe that equalisation can be carried through within the area of responsibility of the Welsh National Water Development Authority. We are meeting the chairman and the members of the authority next month and I ask my right hon. Friend to accept that we will do everything we can in this matter.
    Mr. Alec Jones: My hon. Friend indicated earlier that he hoped some solution to the problem might be found as speedily as possible, but does he understand that we in Wales believe that "as speedily as possible" should mean action by next year?
    Mr. Rowlands: I appreciate that point. That is one reason why we are meeting the chairman and the members of the authority in the near future.

    Shotton Steelworks
    Sir A. Meyerasked the Secretary of State for Wales what representations he has received from employees of the British Steel Corporation at Shotton regarding compensation for redundancy.
    Mr. John Morris: None.
    Sir A. Meyer: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman confirm the reports which appeared in the Press that the compensation which would be payable to workers made redundant by the British Steel Corporation was largely based on agreements with the European Coal and Steel Community and that that basis of compensation would vanish if the Labour Government carried out their proposal to take Britain out of the ECSC? Will he also note that these seemingly generous provisions apparently make no provision for steel workers who might be forced to move to other steel-making areas, who might lose a great deal of money in the process and who might have no guarantee that they would be able to rehouse themselves near other jobs?
    Mr. Morris: The compensation arises only if redundancy takes place. I am not

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    sure which horse the hon. Gentleman is now backing. I seem to recall, as I told him last time, that he supported the previous Government's proposals which included the closing of Shotton. The hon. Gentleman has a Question down asking for details of the scheme, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry will deal with it in due course.
    Mr. Roy Hughes: Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the benefits to British working people from the so-called regional fund of the Common Market have been a fleabite to date, despite the promises originally made by the hon. Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer) and his friends? Does my right hon. and learned Friend further agree that we are nevertheless making a substantial contribution towards the upkeep of the common agricultural policy which is a means of subsidising inefficient French farmers and of keeping prices high for the British housewife?
    Mr. Morris: I think that the whole House is aware of the substantial contribution being made by this country to the common agricultural policy. The readaption scheme, to which reference was made, comes into effect on 1st July. It provides for the payment of benefits to certain steel workers who are made redundant, and it could be of importance if redundancy arose.

    Celtic Sea Oil Exploration
    Mr. Roy Hughesasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he has had any recent discussions with representatives of the major oil companies concerning exploration in the Celtic Sea.
    Mr. John Morris: Although no formal discussions have taken place, I have had a number of recent contacts with representatives of some of the major oil companies during my visits to South-West Wales.
    Mr. Hughes: Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the major oil companies seem to be merely toying with the Celtic Sea? Will he and his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy engage in consultations with the oil companies and urge them to go full speed ahead in order that any discoveries can accrue to the benefit of the Welsh
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    people and the country at large at the earliest possible opportunity?
    Mr. Morris: I assure my hon. Friend that the whole of the question of exploration round our shores is very much in the mind of my right hon. Friend. There is a continuing programme of exploration in the Celtic Sea. The Welsh Office is making the right dispositions and preparations to take advantage of any discovery which may arise. However, as my hon. Friend knows, so far no oil has been found.
    Mr. Nicholas Edwards: May I assure the right hon. and learned Gentleman that those of us who are most involved see no evidence that the oil companies are merely toying with the problem? I congratulate him on setting up his advisory committee, which results from a proposal originally made by hon. Members on this side of the House, but may I urge that it should as soon as possible take the opportunity of the present lull in proceedings to look first at the problem of training, secondly at the allocation of land and thirdly at the grave housing problems which will confront us as soon as oil is discovered, if it is discovered?
    Mr. Morris: All these matters will be considered by my committee in due course. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his remarks. He will recall that in my speech at Milford Haven a few weeks ago I attached particular importance to training, be it from craft or university, at every level so that the young men and women of South-West Wales are properly geared to take advantage of any new industrial revolution in that part of the Principality.
    Mr. Kinnock: Does my right hon. and learned Friend accept that there is general gratification for the fact that he is making preparations to deal with the problems and the advantages which will arise when the oil strike is made? Will he also note the overwhelming opinion in Wales that the maximum possible participation and profit from these oil explorations should accrue to the working people of Britain and not to the multinational companies or overseas bankers?
    Mr. Morris: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We want to ensure that

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    the oil and gas round our shores are exploited in ways which will confer the maximum benefit on the whole community. These obviously would have been dissipated by the policy of our predecessors.
    Mr. Hooson: Will the Secretary of State nevertheless be a little circumspect until oil is found?
    Mr. Morris: I have made our position quite clear both today and on the previous occasion when I answered Questions. No oil has yet been found but, as the hon. and learned Gentleman will be aware, gas has been found in the Irish Sea.

    Milford Fishing Industry
    Mr. Nicholas Edwardsasked the Secretary of State for Wales whether he has concluded his consideration of the problems facing the Milford fishing industry; and whether he will make a statement.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Barry Jones): I am not able to add to the reply my right hon. and learned Friend gave to the hon. Member on 17th June.—[Vol. 875, c. 58.]
    Mr. Edwards: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that it is more than a month since the facts were first presented by me to the Government and at least three weeks since his Department agreed to look again at those facts? Is he unable to take a decision on the matter, or has he no intention of doing anything about it? When does he hope to bring the whole unnecessarily prolonged deliberations to an end?
    Mr. Jones: We do not accept that the Government have been delaying or are slow to respond. Both my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State have kept closely in touch with the situation in recent weeks, and when it was decided that a further on-the-spot report was required that was done very quickly indeed.

    Housing (Waiting Lists)
    Mr. Kinnockasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will now answer Questions relating to the waiting lists of housing authorities in Wales.
    Mr. Rowlands: About 38,000 people are on the waiting lists of 22 authorities which have given information on this subject to the Welsh Office. I do not regard this figure as an entirely reliable indicator of true housing need.
    Mr. Kinnock: Is my hon. Friend aware that this a very good answer and that it adds significantly to the accountability which Departments must have to Parliament, because previous Governments have refused to provide answers to such Questions? If I heard my hon. Friend aright, is it fair to say that in all the local authority areas in Wales there are probably 50,000 people who are waiting for housing? Can he say what he proposes to do to meet that demand? Do his plans include encouraging local authorities to take maximum advantage of the Government's facilities for taking over and occupying unsold estates of private housing?
    Mr. Rowlands: I thank my hon. Friend for his kind remarks. With the 15 authorities about which we have no information, I suspect that the figure may come close to that given by my hon. Friend. I attach extreme importance to the purchase of large unsold private estates of houses. It would be a scandal for those houses to lie idle when there are so many people on the waiting lists.
    Mr. D. E. Thomas: May I add my congratulations to the hon. Gentleman on releasing the figures of the scandalous number of people who are still on local authority waiting lists? May we have an assurance that the Government are pressing ahead with a crash programme of new local authority building?
    Mr. Rowlands: Most certainly, Sir. I have a direction from my right hon. and learned Friend, on visiting every one of the housing authorities, to emphasise and press this need, and I am glad to say that I am getting encouraging responses from them.

    Road Proposals (Public Participation)
    Mr. Tom Ellisasked the Secretary of State for Wales how many public participation exercises he has started in relation to the new roadway proposals.
    Mr. Barry Jones: Eight public participation exercises have been held and more are planned.
    Mr. Ellis: Is my hon. Friend aware that the electors of my constituency welcome this development? May I ask my hon. Friend three questions? First, will he in due course, after gaining experience in the exercise, publish an assessment of it, taking into account any suggestions or criticisms made by the public? Secondly, if in the event there happens to be substantial public agreement favouring one of a number of alternative routes, will that be decisive in the acceptance of the route? Thirdly, what does my hon. Friend propose if the public in a particular area overwhelmingly reject all his alternative route proposals?
    Mr. Jones: I followed with interest the statesmanlike policy of my hon. Friend in his constituency on particular participation matters. In view of the detailed questions that he has asked, perhaps he will allow me to write to him after considering them. I believe that this exercise in participation has proved valuable to the Welsh Office and, I think, to members of the public.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: In order to get the record straight, will the hon. Gentleman confirm that this new procedure for pre-order consultation was introduced in 1973?
    Mr. Jones: The record is straight on this matter.

    Road Programme
    Mr. Alec Jonesasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he can now outline his future plans for the roads programme in Wales; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. John Morris: My objective is to secure the progressive improvement of the road network in Wales. Top priority will be given to the M4 and high priority to the A55, but the needs of other roads in all parts of Wales will receive continuing attention.
    Mr. Jones: Has my right hon. and learned Friend seen the answer given last week by the Minister of Transport in which he indicated that there would be alterations in the standards of certain roads being constructed in England—namely, that dual two-lane roads would be substituted for three lanes and in some cases single lanes would be substituted for dual carriageways? Can my right
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    hon. and learned Friend say whether we in Wales are likely to follow that pattern and whether it will have any effect on the proposed M4?
    Mr. Morris: The change announced by my right hon. Friend will have no effect on the M4. Secondly, when we are considering the position in Wales the situation may be different.
    Sir A. Meyer: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that those who have learned to read between the lines know that when the Minister talks about high priority for the A55 it means that nothing will be done by this Government, as by previous Governments? Are the Government preparing plans to provide employment for the tens of thousands of Welsh workers who will be out of work if the Government continue their economic policies on the vast programme of road building?
    Mr. Morris: The hon. Gentleman knows that that matter does not arise on this Question. I am confident of one thing, namely, that the Government will take the best action in the interests of the whole nation to deal with any contingency that may arise. The road programme is of vital importance to Wales because of the neglect of previous administrations of which the hon. Gentleman was a supporter.

    Mid-Wales (Motorway)
    Mr. Geraint Howellsasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he has any plans in the foreseeable future to extend the motorway through Mid-Wales from the Midlands to Aberystwyth.
    Mr. Barry Jones: A motorway is not justified but my right hon. and learned Friend intends to continue with the progressive improvement of the trunk roads eastwards from Aberystwyth to the English border.
    Mr. Howells: I am sure the Minister is aware that communications between the Midlands and Aberystwyth must be improved if we are to induce industrialists to settle in that area. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his reply, but has he any proposals to improve communications in the near future?
    Mr. Jones: I take the point made by the hon. Gentleman. He will be pleased to know that a preliminary report on the

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    scheme for improving the eastern approach to Aberystwyth was recently completed by consultants and is now under consideration. In addition, a feasibility study for improving the A44 between Aberystwyth and Llangurig has recently been completed and the report is under consideration.
    Mr. Roderick: Does my hon. Friend appreciate that many people in Mid-Wales might consider that if money is available for communications it might be better spent on improving public transport facilities?
    Mr. Jones: I take the point, but I should like notice of that question.

    Literacy
    Mr. Gristasked the Secretary of State for Wales what studies his Department is making of methods for teaching reading and writing in primary schools.
    Mr. Barry Jones: Her Majesty's inspectors continually study the teaching of reading and writing, and advise schools and local education authorities. In addition the Schools Council sponsors several research and development projects in these fields.
    Mr. Grist: Is the hon. Gentleman himself satisfied with his reply? Is he not aware that there is great dissatisfaction among many secondary school teachers about the standards of literacy of pupils reaching their schools? Is not the rate of illiteracy and near-illiteracy among school leavers an indictment of our whole education system?
    Mr. Jones: I should like to reassure the hon. Gentleman on this matter. The range of educational activities engaged in by schoolchildren has increased substantially. The evidence available does not justify the conclusion that this widening of experience jeopardises standards of reading or writing.
    Mr. Kinnock: Does my hon. Friend accept that there is grave danger in the present level of illiteracy among adult pupils of Britain, which is mirrored in the illiteracy of school leavers? Will he also accept that to reimpose examination standards on schoolchildren, as the Conservative Party wishes to do, would be no way to improve the situation?
    Mr. Jones: I recognise the expertise in this matter of my hon. Friend, and I should like further to hear his views.

    Truancy (Secondary Schools)
    Mr. Michael Robertsasked the Secretary of State for Wales if he will seek to obtain and publish information about truancy in Welsh secondary schools, and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. John Morris: Information is now being analysed about rates of absence and unjustified absence in secondary and middle schools in Wales on a day in January this year. The main results from this survey should be available shortly.
    Mr. Roberts: I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for that reply. Is he aware that reports of truancy are causing grave parental alarm? Is he further aware that truancy and a breakdown of discipline are causing widespread disillusion over the raising of the school leaving age in the staffrooms of comprehensive schools, in particular in large urban areas?
    Mr. Morris: Certainly the question of truancy is an important matter which caused concern to the previous administration, and that was why the survey was commissioned on, I believe, 17th January this year. As the hon. Gentleman put forward in the debate on education, the statistics are not yet available. I hope, however, that they will be available shortly.

  INDUSTRY

    Triumph Motor Cycle Plant
    Mr. Leslie Huckfieldasked the Secretary of State for Industry whether he will make a statement on the proposals for a workers' co-operative to run the Triumph motor cycle plant at Meriden.
    The Minister of State, Department of Industry (Mr. Eric S. Heffer): On 13th June my right hon. Friend met representatives of all those involved in the plan for the creation of a workers' cooperative at Meriden. Questions remaining to be resolved were identified and discussions between the parties concerned are continuing. Until these questions are resolved the Government cannot reach a

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    decision on the provision of financial assistance to the co-operative.
    Mr. Huckfield: I am grateful for the details given in that reply, but is my hon. Friend aware that with the loyalty of the work force, the international reputation of the name of Triumph and, above all, a guaranteed market in the United States, there are some rather unique ingredients for the success of this co-operative? Does he not agree that something such as the co-operative will be necessary to maintain the production and export record of the British motor cycle industry as well as provide the Labour Party with a unique opportunity to experiment with some of the proposals recently enshrined in our Green Paper "The Community and the Company"?
    Mr. Heffer: My hon. Friend will accept that it is recognised that it is a unique situation in regard to these important workers, but at this stage I cannot go beyond the point I made in my reply. However, I assure him that all the points he has raised are clearly understood and are being taken into consideration by the Government in relation to this matter.
    Mr. Tomlinson: I thank my hon. Friend for what he has said, but will he bear in mind the extreme urgency of a decision being made as quickly as possible because of the problem relating to motor cycles in stock at Meriden and the difficulty of access to the American market if a decision is not made very speedily?
    Mr. Heffer: My hon. Friend can rest assured that we understand the urgency of the matter. I should point out that we inherited this situation. We have acted very quickly in this matter compared with the long delays which previously took place, and we will make a decision at the earliest possible moment.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Can the hon. Gentleman assure the House that as the company has already received £3·7 million under the Industry Act no decision will be taken to increase the amount of taxpayer subsidisation of this firm without the prior approval of the House of Commons?
    Mr. Heffer: We are talking about a co-operative which has not received any money whatsoever from the Government or from any other body concerned. If
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    the hon. Gentleman is talking about the Norton-Villiers-Triumph firm, that is an entirely different company; it has received financial aid under the Industry Act brought in by his Government. Every organisation has the right to make application for aid if this is thought to be essential.

    National Enterprise Board
    Mr. Stanleyasked the Secretary of State for Industry whether he will make a statement on the setting up of the National Enterprise Board.
    Mr. Heffer: I would ask the hon. Member to await publication of the Government's proposals.
    Mr. Stanley: Will the Minister consider carefully the figures given to me by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on Friday relating to the cost to public funds of the nationalised industries? Is he aware that in the past five financial years the public sector of industry has required from the Exchequer £1,400 million in subsidies, £1,000 million in write-offs, £900,000 in public dividend capital and £2,100 million in public debt capital? Will he consider the implications of these figures before extending nationalisation further?
    Mr. Heffer: The hon. Gentleman ought to advise his friends in private enterprise that they also should consider those figures, which over the years have in effect meant a good subsidy to private enterprise. He should recognise that the publicly-owned industries have not been able to charge as much as they ought to have charged and that this has meant in effect a good subsidy for private enterprise.
    Mr. Skinner: Will my hon. Friend take note that the figures are roughly the equivalent of £3,000 million being handed out over the past four years to private firms, which equates to about £2 million a day? Will he also bear in mind that private firms have at the same time been milking nationalised industries—the public sector—for a much greater amount? Further, will he note that some of us are more than disturbed that industrialists need supplementary benefits from the Chancellor of the Exchequer's purse, from the taxpayer, in order to go and work in the regions? That is one of the questions to which we ought to

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    be turning our attention, and will my hon. Friend——
    Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has previously complained that he is not called enough on Questions, but I think he is called more than almost any other hon. Member and it would help me, when I do call him, if he would be reasonably brief.
    Mr. Skinner: I am winding up now. Will my hon. Friend ensure that the National Enterprise Board, when set up, will stop the cash flow to Aims of Industry?
    Mr. Heffer: My hon. Friend has put about six questions to me all in one supplementary question and obviously I cannot answer them all, because some of them do not come within the responsibilities of my Department. I wish to make it absolutely clear, however, that as far as we are concerned we are considering all the various subsidies that have been paid to private industry. I also wish to make clear that as far as the Government are concerned there is not necessarily any criticism of companies receiving aid in order to go into the regions. This matter, which was continued by the previous Government, arose from the actions of an earlier Labour Government. What we are intending to do once the planning agreement is established is to make certain that there is more selective use of the finance that is granted by the Government.
    Mr. Tom King: May I remind the hon. Gentleman that part of the function of his Department is to support all industry in this country? May I ask him not to allow any comparison of the relative remissions of tax from one sector of industry or another to be seen as an attack on the private sector the success of which sector is vital to the success of Britain? May I point out the damage that has been done by the delays on proposals for the National Enterprise Board and say how important it is that at the earliest possible moment industry should know exactly where it stands?
    Mr. Heffer: The proposals for the National Enterprise Board and planning agreements will be brought before the House at the earliest possible moment. Regarding industry as a whole the present Government wish to ensure that we
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    have a healthy economy and healthy industries. We believe that the proposals that will be put before the House are the best possible proposals in our immediate situation to help overcome the lack of investment and, in many respects, the defects in proper location of industry.

  CIVIL SERVICE

    Dispersal
    Mr. William Hamiltonasked the Minister for the Civil Service what progress has been made in the decentralisation of Government Departments and other public bodies from London to the regions.
    Mr. Harry Ewingasked the Minister for the Civil Service when he expects to announce the Government's proposals in respect of the dispersal of Civil Service jobs.
    Mr. Wileyasked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a statement on the implementation of the proposals made in the Hardman Report.
    Dr. John A. Cunninghamasked the Minister for the Civil Service when he expects to announce a decision on the Government's attitude to the proposals contained in the Hardman Report.
    The Minister of State, Civil Service Department (Mr. Robert Sheldon): In order to achieve a distribution of Civil Service jobs to the areas of greatest need we have had to review the Hardman proposals. This is naturally taking some time, partly because of the large number of competing claims. I am conscious of the need to make an announcement as soon as possible.
    Mr. Hamilton: Will that announcement be made before the House rises for the Summer Recess? There has been considerable delay in making the announcement. Will my hon. Friend give an assurance that the number of jobs to be transferred to Scotland will be much greater than the figure proposed in the Hardman Report? May I ask him not to rule out decentralisation to parts of Scotland other than Glasgow, such as Glenrothes New Town, which I think is the only new town in Scotland which does not have a Government or other public department?
    Mr. Sheldon: The main reason for the delay is that the Government are reviewing the policy extending beyond the Hardman proposals, and we have been dissatisfied with the regional solutions that have been put forward so far. As a result there will be a greater need for consultation than was previously the case. This is obviously causing the delay to which my hon. Friend referred. The other matters that my hon. Friend raised are matters for consultation with both the receiving locations and the Departments concerned.
    Miss Fookes: May I press the claims of Plymouth, which according to the Hardman Report is able to take up to 5,000 jobs? Will the Minister bear in mind that the level of wages in the South-West is fairly low and that such a number of new jobs would be an excellent injection?
    Mr. Sheldon: The hon. Lady will be pleased to know that the Government have taken on board the case made for the area for which she speaks. This will be considered in the light of other possible receiving locations.
    Mr. Willey: Is my hon. Friend aware that his re-examination of the Hardman Report is welcome but that it is now more than a year since we received the report and in that time an unanswerable case has been made for a substantial dispersal of civil servants to the Northern Region?
    Mr. Sheldon: The House was obviously fully aware of the interest and concern expressed by my right hon. Friend for the area which he represents. I am sure he can rest assured that these points have been fully taken in consultation and discussion. When the announcement is made, at the earliest possible moment, I hope that he will be quite satisfied with what the Government have done in this general direction.
    Mr. Waddington: Will the Minister not be too ready to heed the blandishments of Scotsmen, and will he bear in mind that there has been great annoyance in North-East Lancashire at the fact that none of our towns there was mentioned as a possible place to which civil servants could be dispersed?
    Mr. Sheldon: The hon. and learned Gentleman will be aware that blandish
    980
    ments have been coming from all quarters of the British Isles. These are among the problems which have to be considered.
    Dr. Cunningham: Is my hon. Friend aware that many of us who are interested in regional development regarded the Hardman proposals as being rather timid in terms of the number of jobs involved in dispersal? Does he recognise that we on the Government side of the House should gauge the earnestness of the Government's intentions by their proposals under Hardman? Does he not also recognise the strong case of West Cumberland in seeking to have the laboratory of the Government Chemist re-established there?
    Mr. Sheldon: The problem concerns not only the number of jobs but also, in particular, where they should be going. My hon. Friend can rest assured that the representations that have been made concerning West Cumberland are being fully taken into account by the Department.
    Mr. Peter Thomas: I appreciate that the Minister cannot at this juncture give figures, but will he give an assurance that the figures for dispersal to Wales will not, in the ultimate, be less than the figures suggested by the Hardman Report?
    Mr. Sheldon: As the right hon. and learned Gentleman has pointed out, no specific undertakings can be given at present during the period of consultations. Obviously, however, the Principality is clearly one of the most important areas under review.

    Scientists' Pay
    Mr. Blakerasked the Minister for the Civil Service whether he is now able to state the results of negotiations between his Department and the Institution of Professional Civil Servants on the pay of Government scientists.
    Mr. Robert Sheldon: I am pleased to announce that agreement has now been reached with the IPCS on a settlement of the immediate pay issue. This gives increases to Government scientists of about 10.8 per cent. per annum since the last full settlement on 1st January 1971. For the convenience of hon. Members I

    981
    will put details of revised pay scales in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. Blaker: Is the Minister aware that the House will welcome the fact that an agreement has been reached and will want to study carefully the figures to which he has referred? Has it been necessary for the Secretary of State for Employment to exercise his consent powers under existing procedures in relation to this agreement? May we have an assurance that the Minister's Department will now press forward urgently in studying the long-term issues?
    Mr. Sheldon: The consent necessary before the actual agreement was given by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment. Regarding the long-term settlement, the House will know that a review is in progress. It is hoped that this will settle the long-term issues in the next year or two.
    Dr. John A. Cunningham: Does the Minister recognise the campaign of the Institution of Professional Civil Servants for parity at every level? It is certainly important in terms of morale of scientists in Government employment that they should be seen to be worth at least as much as their colleagues in other branches of the profession.

    Grade

    Minimum £ per annum

    Maximum £ per annum

    Assistant Scientific Officer

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    887 (age 16)

    1,899

    Scientific Officer

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    1,592

    2,675

    Higher Scientific Officer

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    2,461

    3,371

    Senior Scientific Officer

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    3,157

    4,441

    Principal Scientific Officer

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    …

    4,227

    5,550

    The rates quoted are subject to the addition where appropriate of £228 per annum Inner London weighting and £110 per annum for Outer London weighting.

    Industrial Civil Servants (Pay)
    Mr. Radiceasked the Minister for the Civil Service what reply he has sent to the hon. Member for Chester-le-Street to his letter of 14th May about the pay of industrial civil servants; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Robert Sheldon: My letter of 30th May to the hon. Member explained that industrial civil servants were now covered by a Stage 3 threshold agreement and that their pay would be further improved as a result of the current annual review. An offer, consistent with Stage 3, has
    Mr. Sheldon: Yes, the point has been well put to us and, of course, there has been an undertaking that we shall look urgently at the various structure questions which affect the science group. This examination will have the advantage of taking into account the matters raised by my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Neave: I thank the Minister for the initiative he has taken in reaching this immediate settlement. Arising out of the question of the hon. Member for Whitehaven (Dr. Cunningham), may I ask how far parity has been reached in this particular circumstance and when the future pay research review will be completed?
    Mr. Sheldon: The future pay research review is expected to be completed in 1976. As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, it takes some considerable time to set up, but this has been accepted by both sides. Concerning the approach to parity, this is now within 3 per cent. or 4 per cent. of the administrative class and is well within the limits proposed by the Pay Board.
    Following is the information:
    The new rates from 1st January 1974 are as follows:
    since been made to increase basic rates of pay from 1st July by between £2·32 and £2·38 a week for men, with rather larger increases for women who will benefit from a further step towards equal pay. There would also be some improvement in holiday pay.
    Mr. Radice: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Does he not agree, however, that in the battle against low pay the Government have a responsibility? Will he take action after the joint investigation which has been promised, as I understand it, between management and trade unions into the gap between the level of pay in the industrial Civil Service and comparable pay elsewhere if this gap proves to be as wide as the trade unions suspect?
    Mr. Sheldon: As my hon. Friend has pointed out, the outcome of the joint comparability investigation will not be known for some time. The investigation will present a number of practical difficulties in establishing not only fair job comparisons but also what account needs to be taken of differences in pay systems, earnings under them, hours worked and various other conditions of service. This will be proceeded with as quickly as possible.

    Temporary Staff
    Mr. Tylerasked the Minister for the Civil Service how many temporary staff are currently employed in each Government Department, respectively; and if he is satisfied that no serious loss of administrative efficiency, or potential security danger, is involved in the employment of temporary staff.
    Mr. Robert Sheldon: With permission, I will circulate details in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    There are disadvantages involved in employing temporaries but there is no alternative where staff shortages would cause an unacceptable strain on permanent staff. I am satisfied that the relevant security procedures are adequate.
    Mr. Tyler: May I express my gratitude to the Minister for his reply? Is he satisfied with the recruitment rate, particularly to the Department of the Environment and to the Property Services Agency, which I understand is having considerable problems at present, particularly among design staff, and is therefore having to go to agencies for temporary staff? Is the Minister satisfied that the morale of staff within the Department of the Environment and the Property Services Agency is sufficient to make it possible to improve the situation for the future?
    Mr. Sheldon: Nobody can be satisfied with the recruitment level for Civil Service jobs in a number of grades within the central London area. As regards the problems of the Department to which the hon. Gentleman referred, I am looking generally into the question of agency staff and hope to be able to make a statement at the earliest possible moment, if called upon to do so.
    Following are the details:—
    The information as at 1st January 1974 is as follows:

    Government Department

    Number of Temporary Agency Staff

    Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food

    47

    Cabinet Office

    4

    Central Office of Information

    34

    Civil Service Department (and sub-Departments)

    70

    Customs and Excise

    16

    Ministry of Defence (including Procurement Executive)

    117

    Department of Education and Science

    20

    Department of Employment

    91

    Department of the Environment (including Property Services Agency)

    739

    Export Credits Guarantee Department

    51

    Foreign and Commonwealth Office

    35

    Department of Health and Social Security

    204

    Home Office

    42

    Ministry of Overseas Development

    52

    Department of Trade and Industry

    268

    HM Treasury (and sub-Departments)

    56

    HM Procurator General and Treasury Solicitor

    26

    Welsh Office

    2

    Total

    1,874

    Her Majesty's Stationery Office
    Mr. Tomlinsonasked the Minister for the Civil Service if he is satisfied with the state of industrial relations in Her Majesty's Stationery Office, and if he will publish in the OFFICIAL REPORT the various rates paid to printing staff with known comparisons in private printing works.
    Mr. Robert Sheldon: HMSO's industrial relations compare reasonably with those of similar organisations in the printing and print distribution industries generally. There is insufficient information to make conclusive comparisons on wages of printing staff; but HMSO has recently offered the unions concerned an independent investigation into the question.
    Mr. Tomlinson: Is my hon. Friend prepared to make a statement about resignation of industrial relations staff from HMSO recently and at the same time make a statement about the present dispute in the Stationery Office?
    Mr. Sheldon: The printing troubles of HMSO are not new. We have seen them from time to time over the past

    985
    few years. My hon. Friend and the House generally should bear in mind that the position of HMSO is no worse than that of other printers, especially when one bears in mind the large amount of printing work in the London area.
    As to the resignation of certain people on the industrial relations staff, there have been a number of resignations and one dismissal for misconduct and the assistant director will not have his engagement extended when it expires in August. This is as a result of the happenings of last autumn. Both officers have appealed to the Civil Service Appeal Board, which upheld the Stationery Office decisions.
    Mr. Adley: Will the hon. Gentleman list those unions, in addition to the printing union, which appear already to have exempted themselves from the social compact?
    Mr. Sheldon: That is a matter for my right hon. Friend.

    World Population Year
    Mrs. Renée Shortasked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a full statement of Great Britain's contribution to World Population Year.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Civil Service Department (Mr. John Grant): The United Nations invited member States to take part in World Population Year 1974 as a way of focusing attention on different aspects of the population problem, and to make such efforts in the field of population as might be consistent with their respective needs. The Government are sponsoring an essay competition for young people with population as the theme, and two prize-winners will be invited to attend, at Government expense, the Population Tribune in Bucharest which will take place at the same time as the World Population Conference in August.
    We shall be represented at that conference by a well-balanced delegation which the Lord Privy Seal hopes to lead himself. I also hope to be present.
    The Lord Privy Seal and I have both recently addressed public meetings on the importance of stimulating well-informed public discussion of population matters. During the past year several non-Government organisations have also been prominent in bringing population
    986
    issues to the attention of the public, and I want to warmly commend their efforts to the House.
    A fuller statement of the Government's attitude to population questions will shortly be made public. We intend at the same time to publish the statement of policy for submission to the United Nations before the World Population Conference. We have financially supported the United Nations Fund for Population Activities since it was set up, and this year we have increased our grant from £850,000 to £1 million.
    Mrs. Short: In view of the enormous importance of the conference, and since the previous Government did little or nothing to make preparations for World Population Year, will my hon. Friend say what problems he intends to raise at the conference? Will he also give an assurance that there will be equal representation for women on the British delegation to Bucharest?
    Mr. Grant: On the first part, I cannot anticipate the statement that is to be made. I cannot say that there will be equal representation for women, but there will certainly be women on the delegation and we shall bear in mind what my hon. Friend said.

  HOUSE OF COMMONS

    Bomb Incident (Westminster Hall)
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Lord President of the Council what further action he has taken as a result of the bomb incident at Westminster Hall on 17th June.
    The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Edward Short): I am having consultations with the authorities of the House about the additional action that is needed. Investigation into the incident itself is being carried out by the Metropolitan Police with the assistance of the Serjeant at Arms.
    Mr. Dalyell: Whilst welcoming my right hon. Friend's understandable reaction that none of us will be bombed into a change of policy, is it none the less recognised that those of us who have seen the prisoner-of-war camp at Long Kesh and the

    987
    women's camp at Armagh are able to understand the gut reaction which makes people perpetrate such outrages? Will the Government look again with fresh minds at the whole question of internment without trial?
    Mr. Short: That is a very much wider question which is not for me but for my right hon. Friend.
    Mr. Fell: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider attempting to bring about the agreeable situation in which Members agree to have their photographs taken and have passes for entry to the Palace of Westminster? As he must know, a large number of Members have had their photographs taken and have passes but a number of them do not show their passes even when they have them. A large number of Members still refuse to carry passes with their photographs on them and will not show them to the policemen. Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it would make the job of the policemen that much easier if all Members agreed to have their photographs taken, to carry passes and to show them at the gates?
    Mr. Short: The hon. Gentleman will remember that I raised this question last week and I understand that the report of the Services Committee, which regrettably has not yet been printed, although it has been laid before the House, makes this proposal. I greatly hope that all Members will co-operate and obtain passes. If they do not do so, I regret that we shall have no option but to pass a resolution of the House about it. However, I greatly hope that that will not be necessary.
    Mr. Cryer: The House recognises the need for security, but does my right hon. Friend accept that one of the prime considerations must always be that constituents must have access to Members? Will he bear this in mind in reaching any conclusions?
    Mr. Short: This is the difficulty, as the Leader of the Opposition pointed out last week. There is a need to hold a balance between security on the one hand and the access of constituents and the public generally into a free parliamentary building on the other hand.
    Mr. Freud: In view of the widespread and substantial losses sustained by Members during the bombing attack, will the Lord President of the Council consider establishing an insurance scheme so that such losses could be reimbursed? I believe that at present there is no procedure for compensating Members who have lost typewriters and other valuable equipment.
    Mr. Short: I am looking into this aspect of the incident and will certainly inform the House about it.
    Mr. Grylls: Did the bomb blow up the HANSARD office—or what on earth has happened to HANSARD?
    Mr. Short: As has so often happened in the past two or three years, I regret to say that there is an industrial dispute.

    Security
    Mr. Trotterasked the Chairman of the Select Committee on House of Commons (Services) whether, in the review of the security arrangements in the Commons, the introduction will be considered of passes to be displayed on the clothing of all those having entry to the precincts whether working there or visitors.
    The Chairman of the Select Committee on House of Commons (Services) (Mr. Arthur Bottomley): All measures which will in any way tighten security in the House or help the police and custodians in their difficult task will be given urgent and close consideration by the Committee.
    Mr. Trotter: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the stationery store of the Serjeant at Arms is the most secure part of this building? It is not only difficult to obtain entry to it but, having obtained entry, it is often difficult to extract the contents. Does the Chairman agree that in any survey of future security regard should be paid not to the traditions and conveniences of the past but to the dangers of the present; and must not inconvenience be suffered by Members and by those visiting the House if we are to prevent a real tragedy from occurring?
    Mr. Bottomley: On the serious part of the hon. Member's question, the Services Committee is seized of this,

    989
    shares his anxiety and hopes to bring forward another speedy report to try to improve security in the House.
    Mr. Moonman: Will my right hon. Friend take account of the fact that there is still a dispute with the custody guards? Perhaps he will consult the Lord President of the Council about this matter and raise the whole question of security in Government buildings.
    Mr. Bottomley: I undertake to do that.

BRITISH NUCLEAR TEST
Mr. Arthur Latham (by Private Notice)asked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on the Government's policy concerning further British nuclear tests.
The Prime Minister (Mr. Harold Wilson): Yes, Sir. As the House knows all aspects of our defence expenditure are under review, including strategic nuclear weapons, which are, of course, committed to NATO.
The previous Government had made arrangements for a test necessary to maintain the effectiveness of our nuclear deterrent, and the experiment took place a few weeks ago.
The experiment was conducted fully within the framework of the provisions of the Partial Test Ban Treaty of 1963 and the Non-Proliferation Treaty of 1968. Et was also fully in accordance with the policy of the previous Labour Government, on which I would refer the House to the answers which I gave on 18th November 1965. It is equally in accordance with the policy in the Labour Party manifesto, based on multilateral disarmament, and does not involve any breach of the party programme as laid down in our successive conferences during the three years of Opposition.
No further British tests are due to take place in the near future, and certainly not before the defence review is completed and a report made to the House.
Mr. Latham: My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will have noted the expressions of delight on the faces of some Conservative Members over what is a serious issue, whatever view one takes of nuclear policy. Is he aware that there
990
is great concern among many hon. Members on this issue? Why did we have to wait to hear about it from Press reports? Why was there no statement from the Government or a statement to his House? Why was it so secret? Was that for military reasons, or were there political considerations?
Will my right hon. Friend urge the Leader of the House to provide time for a debate on the subject in the very near future, and, in view of the secrecy, will he underline most emphatically the assurance I understood him to give, that there will be no further tests of this kind until the review has taken place, and that the House will have a chance of debating the results of that review before the Government proceed to act upon it? Does my right hon. Friend not think it right that the House should have a chance of voting on these issues? Does he agree that this was unfortunate timing in view of the discussions between the United States and the USSR which might possibly lead to a ban on all underground tests?
Finally, how does my right hon. Friend reconcile the fact that the test took place in secrecy and without the knowledge of the House with "Labour's Programme 1973" which said:
"France seems intent on making the enormous economic effort required to develop its nuclear force. We have long ago stated our firm conviction that this is not a road along which Britain could or should continue."
I agree with that. Why does not my right hon. Friend?
The Prime Minister: First, there is no ministerial responsibility for the expression on Conservative Members' faces. My hon. Friend asked why no announcement had been made, and he repeated the question at the end of his very helpful and fair-minded supplementary question. Of the tests made during the Conservative Government's time before 1964, three were made without any announcement in the House. Apart from those, the practice has been that until the evaluation of the results of the test are complete no statement is made in the House.
My hon. Friend referred very fairly to talks going on between the United States and the USSR, and, of course, we are being kept closely in touch with those. Those talks are with a view to doing what many of us have long pressed, to reduce

991
the threshold for underground explosions which are not contrary to the partial test-ban treaty. Many people in the West, certainly in this country and in our party, hope that the threshold will be reduced. What has happened is not in the remotest degree anywhere near the lowest possible threshold which may come out of the US-USSR discussions.
My hon. Friend referred to France and to the French tests, on which we have expressed our concern, and which took place in the atmosphere contrary to the test-ban agreement. The difference, as I said at the beginning of my statement, is that our strategic weapons are committed to NATO. I give my hon. Friend the assurance contained in my original statement, that no further British tests are due to take place in the near future and certainly not before the defence review is complete and the report made to the House. Of course, the House will want to debate that report, and I shall mention that, in view of the question of time, to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, who heard what my hon. Friend suggested.
Mr. Goodhart: Many of us would have been dismayed if the Prime Minister had allowed our most powerful weapons system to lose its effectiveness. Has he any plans in the near future for trying to amend our nuclear agreement with the United States?
The Prime Minister: Neither dismay nor pleasure by the hon. Member or anyone else would have altered the situation which took place. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence said on 21st May this year that in our defence review all options were remaining open. To have decided not to proceed with the test would have closed one option which is open.
Mr. Frank Allaun: Will the Prime Minister now undertake to halt the so-called improvements to the Polaris missile at a cost of £100 million? Does he agree that this is a suicide weapon which if released would result in instant retaliation and the wiping-out of our country? Is he more influenced by a handful of brass hats than he is by the Labour Party conference and the TUC conference, which decided last year that nuclear bases
992
in Britain, whether American or British, should be wound up?
The Prime Minister: The first part of my hon. Friend's question is a matter for the defence review together with a number of other considerations. My hon. Friend gave an estimate of the cost of certain aspects of the nuclear programme. I understand that my hon. Friend has produced a pamphlet on these matters, and I look forward to reading it. I think that the figure he gave there, however, about the annual cost of the nuclear programme was £39 million out of a total expenditure of £3,600 million. I am not underrating the importance of £39 million, but it should not be overrated either.
As for the Labour Party conference, if my hon. Friend is talking about the resolution carried on the Thursday of the conference last year, I said earlier that nothing that has happened is contrary to the Labour Party programme because I think that the resolution he has in mind was not carried by the necessary two-thirds' majority required under Clause 5(1) of the constitution, as is necessary to qualify for inclusion in the party programme. As for the policy of the party and the manifesto, we seek multilateral nuclear disarmament.
Mr. Russell Johnston: May I refer the Prime Minister back to the first part of the Private Notice Question? Surely it is an inadequate answer to say that he did not make a statement about this important political matter simply because of a technical question of precedent, a question of what the previous Conservative Government did before 1964? May I remind him that the Labour Party for a long time has been committed to the abolition of the independent British nuclear deterrent? We on the Liberal bench certainly oppose the proliferation of British nuclear tests, which we do not regard as contributing to Britain's security. Indeed, we believe that they constitute a threat of a general proliferation of nuclear weapons.
The Prime Minister: What was done did not follow the precedent entirely of the Conservative Government before 1964. The precedent was that on the occasion of the last test nine years ago, when the Labour Government announced

993
it in the House after a period, when the evaluation was complete. It was the 1965 precedent that I was following. As far as I recall, there was no criticism in the House then.
The hon. Gentleman says that the Liberals are not in favour of the proliferation or continuation of nuclear tests. These matters must come up in the defence review, which will be reported to the House, as will the whole question of the deployment of the strategic nuclear deterrent exclusively within NATO.
Mr. Palmer: Does not my right hon. Friend agree that there are some of us on the Labour benches who eagerly look forward to the day when all nuclear weapons and all nuclear testing will be abolished by international agreement? But in the meantime, provided this country has nuclear weapons, is it not necessary that they should be tested from time to time to see that they are made effective?
The Prime Minister: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. What he has said is what we said in the manifesto at the General Election, that we look forward to—and successive Governments in this country have worked for—an extension of control over tests, underground as well as in the atmosphere. We look forward to a total non-proliferation. It was the Labour Government who initiated the non-proliferation treaty so far as this country was concerned, and it was the Conservative Government who initiated the partial test ban treaty. All of us—certainly all of us on this side of the House—are committed to this. We want to see the end of this horror weapon. As a step towards that, we want to see the end of proliferation to countries not possessing that weapon today. Our own position, and the question of tests, will arise in the defence review, which the House will have adequate opportunity to debate.
Mr. Blaker: Is the Prime Minister aware that in the Atlantic Declaration, which was signed in Ottawa last week by all the Foreign Ministers of the NATO Powers, a handsome tribute was paid to the value of the British nuclear deterrent? That being so, would it not be foolish of the Government to fail to do whatever is necessary to keep it up to date?
The Prime Minister: I am aware of the text of that declaration. It is coming up at Brussels, where I shall be tomorrow and on Wednesday. I believe that the declaration said that two nations within NATO, besides the United States, have the nuclear capacity, and I think that it pointed out, or implied, that in one case—ours—the weapons are committed to NATO, and that in the case of the French that is not so.
As the hon. Gentleman asked me whether I was aware of something, I would add that I have become aware, on checking up, that the question I last answered on the occasion of the previous test nine years ago was put by the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Gwilym Roberts: Never mind the question of a two-thirds majority. Does my right hon. Friend accept that today's announcement will be met with sadness by the great majority of the Labour and trade union movement, and that it will also be a matter of sadness for millions of ordinary people throughout the world who are looking to a Labour Government in this country to give a lead in world disarmament?
The Prime Minister: I think that the sadness will be shared by everyone in this country that these ghastly weapons still exist. We take the view today, as we did in Opposition and as we did in the previous Government, that it is the duty of all of us to work for total abolition of the nuclear weapon by international agreement, multilateral agreement, and that meanwhile the priority must be to try to stop the spread of nuclear weapons.
Mr. Heath: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he has no need whatever to apologise for taking action which is so clearly in the national interest, or to obfuscate the issue in the constitutional complexities of his party's organisation or the confusion of his party conferences' resolutions? What he has to do is to state that he will look after the national interest, particularly with a weapon which is not only committed to NATO but is, as the right hon. Gentleman so often refuses to reveal, available to us as a nation in the event of national emergency. [Interruption.] The noises of approval from this side of the House are, of course, because we welcome the

995
fact that the Prime Minister is continuing the policy of the previous Government, as well as the policy of his own Government from 1964 to 1970.
Is it not possible to deduce from the last paragraph of the Prime Minister's statement that the test has proved to be successful? However, should that deduction not be right, will the right hon. Gentleman give an undertaking that if any further tests should be required, in accordance with the findings of those involved—on whose advice he, like me, depends very largely—he will not hesitate to authorise whatever else is required to be put into action to ensure that the nuclear weapon remains effective?
The Prime Minister: I was not apologising. I was stating the facts. It is the case that, so far as we are concerned, the nuclear strategic weapon is committed to NATO. That was what we did when we were in office in 1964, after some irrelevant claims by the Conservative Party, both in Government and in Opposition, that it was available to this country in emergency. We made it clear then—I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman has altered this—that should NATO collapse, should there be no NATO, we would have to take our own decisions. But as long as NATO exists the nuclear strategic weapon is committed to NATO. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman agrees that that is so.
The right hon. Gentleman referred to successful tests, or otherwise. Our test in September 1965, which was of certain limited mechanisms, was due to the failure of a test undertaken by the Conservative Government during the 1964 election. [Interruption.] We must get history right here. I had to explain to the House in 1965 that we undertook the test of September 1965 because of the failure of the previous test.
We are always grateful for the right hon. Gentleman's tender comments about our party conference, as they prove once again that the right hon. Gentleman knows nothing about the mechanism of a democratic party, as we do. The rulers of the right hon. Gentleman's party in the House and in the country are appointed by him, which is why it is in such a mess these days. We have con
996
stitutional rules which we apply. I was only commenting, as it was suggested that there had been a resolution contrary to what has just happened, that that was not part of the party programme under the constitution.
Mr. Heath: As the Prime Minister has asked for my agreement with his own statement, I should place on record that I do not accept his interpretation. As far as the Nassau Agreement is concerned, there is no limitation that the nuclear weapon is available to us only in a national emergency provided, first, that NATO has collapsed. That is the right hon. Gentleman's self-imposed condition and it is not a national view. The right hon. Gentleman said in 1964 that he was going to renegotiate the Nassau Agreement. Of course, he has never done so and the nuclear strategic weapon is available in a national emergency to any Government.
The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman seems to have forgotten some of the events of 1964–65 and what took place after his party left office. We made it clear that the nuclear weapon was specifically committed to NATO except in the circumstance of the collapse of NATO. If the right hon. Gentleman during his period of Government altered that, I think that he should have told the House.
Mr. Wellbeloved: Will my right hon. Friend take comfort from the fact that the overwhelming majority of informed opinion in the House and in the country that is dedicated to the defence of freedom and the maintenance of peace notes with crowing confidence this clear demonstration of the Government's determination to maintain a credible defence capability in the United Kingdom?
The Prime Minister: I have explained exactly the circumstances in which the experiment took place and the necessity for it. I have said, and I repeat, that the whole of our defence policy is being considered and that a report will be made to the House. As my right hon. Friend has said, all the options remain open. Not to have gone on with this test at this time would have meant closing an option.
Mr. Wall: Is it not a fact that the Soviet Union has introduced three new nuclear ICBM systems this year alone,

997
and with that background would it not be criminally irresponsible for any British Government not to bring Britain's deterrent up to date? If the British Government did not do so, would we not be dependent for nuclear defence on the Americans and the French?
The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman referred to developments in the Soviet Union. It is a fact that the Soviet Union has recently greatly increased its capabilities in this respect. That is why we attach so much importance to the success of the SALT talks between the USSR and the United States. We were intimately concerned in the origination of those talks and both Governments have kept in close contact with the SALT talks and also with regard to any talks that may take place in the next few days about underground testing.
Mr. Loughlin: Will my right hon. Friend give an absolute assurance that both he and his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence knew that this test was taking place before it took place, and will he make it clear whether specific permission was granted for it to take place? Is it not true that we objected to the underground tests that took place under the Indian Government? Are not the Labour Government in some danger at least of applying double standards in this matter?
The Prime Minister: The answer is "Yes" to the first part of my hon. Friend's question. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence and I were aware of the test before it took place and afterwards. Second, we have expressed our concern about the Indian tests because they appear on the face of it—and I am not saying more than that—to be contrary to the Non-Proliferation Agreement which the Labour Government played a leading part in securing. [HON. MEMBERS: "The Indians did not sign it."] The Indians did not sign it, but Britain, as one of the sponsors and authors of the Non-Proliferation Agreement, is right in expressing concern when anyone goes outside it.
Mr. Hugh Fraser: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the test has been successful? Secondly, will he confirm that through this test the credibility of the Polaris can be retained for several years?
The Prime Minister: As far as success is concerned, more time is required for the sort of evaluation which took place following previous tests. The right hon. Gentleman has had some experience of these matters as a Defence Minister. The signs so far are that the test was successful and that it will not be necessary to repeat it because of failure. That is unlike the September 1965 test which was based on an earlier failure. My answer to the right hon. Gentleman's second question is that which I have already given several times—namely, we are examining all these matters and this test, far from closing the options, has kept one option open.
Mr. Cryer: Will my right hon. Friend accept that the trade union and Labour movement will be deeply shocked if any further tests take place under a Labour Government? Further, does he accept that the trade union and Labour movement expect a Labour Government to give a lead to the countries of the world and especially to countries such as India? Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance that this Government will not depend on nuclear weaponry and their immoral associated purposes? Will my right hon. Friend say that the Government intend to give a lead to the world by repudiating any further tests?
The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend was setting out what he believed to be the views of the Labour movement despite the implications suggested by Opposition hon. Members. I think that the position is clear in our manifesto on which my hon. Friend and I and all of my right hon. and hon. Friends fought the election. We all hope, on both sides of the House, to end these weapons by international agreement. Meanwhile, before that occurs, we hope to limit among the major powers who hold these weapons and to stop proliferation.
I have already answered a question about the test. I understand the strength of my hon. Friend's feelings, but I believe that when he stops to think about this matter he will not feel able to assert that the fact that the experiment took place in any way holds back our efforts for multilateral nuclear disarmament.
Later—
Mr. Arthur Latham: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will recall that

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I gave you notice of my intention to make an application under Standing Order No. 9. I am sure that in what I have to say I shall not suffer the embarrassment of cheers from hon. Members opposite. In connection with that application, I had a lengthy and detailed procedural submission which I had proposed to submit to you. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has gone a considerable way to dissuading me from pursuing my application, but some difficulties remain which you might be able to clear up from the Chair.
I have been undertaking some research, and I gather that out of some 97 applications for debates under Standing Order No. 9 since October 1971, some six or seven only have been allowed. I understand that perhaps two successful applications were from backbenchers while the rest were made by Front Bench spokesmen. I am sure that you were right in your rulings, although others may have disagreed with you at the time.
My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has made a statement which may well defuse the necessity of asking for an emergency debate. I apologise if I am a little slow in this matter, but I want to read with great care my right hon. Friend's words in the OFFICIAL REPORT, which may not, however, be available tomorrow in view of the present situation in the printing industry. But I think my right hon. Friend said that there will be no more bangs of this kind until the House has discussed the matter. I think that you would have said, if you had had to consider an application for a debate today, that as the explosion had already occurred, the application must fall. I tried to get from the Prime Minister an assurance that there would not be a further test until the House had discussed the matter. I am not sure, until I have read the OFFICIAL REPORT, whether I got that assurance. You and I do not know, for example, what my right hon. Friend would define as the "near future".
There is little prospect that the Opposition will seek a debate on this subject because, as we know, many hon. Members opposite positively relish nuclear sabre rattling. I have made a request, which I know is supported by many of my hon. Friends, that the Government
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should provide an opportunity for a debate.
In the last Parliament, 189 Members of the House signed a letter, which I delivered to the French Embassy, protesting against the French series of tests. The feeling in the House about this issue is very strong, whatever the merits. If neither the Opposition nor the Government will grant facility for a debate in which at least 189 Members would be very strongly interested, then the only person to whom we can then appeal is you.
My question therefore is this: if I do not proceed with my application under Standing Order No. 9 today, shall I be prejudiced within the terms of Standing Order No. 9, as you understand it, from making an application subsequently if I am not satisfied with the Prime Minister's words in HANSARD, if there are other developments, or if we find that neither the Opposition nor the Government will provide us with a debate? I am not asking you to agree in advance that you will grant a debate, but at least to agree that you would entertain such an application at a subsequent date rather than now, and to say that my not making an application now does not mean that I prejudice my opportunity for so doing at a later date.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman's point of order has been very interesting and exploratory. There are all sorts of tempting suggestions in it but I have no intention of going up any of these side paths. I shall judge each case on its merits.
Mr. Onslow: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. There will be many occasions when the House finds it difficult to understand what the Prime Minister means. There is always an opportunity for an hon. Member to put down an early day motion and seek a debate on that.
Mr. Arthur Latham: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The point made by the hon. Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow) helps me to make it clear that when one seeks a debate—and this is why I ask for the guidance of the Chair for a substantial number of back benchers—it is not merely a question of seeking opportunity for an exchange of

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views or of putting names on a piece of paper, but an opportunity physically to decide in the House on an issue about which so many hon. Members feel so passionately.
Mr. Atkinson: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it a fact that, in the period mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Paddington (Mr. Latham), you have granted Standing Order No. 9 debates to only two back benchers?
Mr. Speaker: I have no intention of saying anything about previous applications without notice. I certainly cannot remember off the cuff. The hon. Member for Paddington (Mr. Latham) was on a serious point. It emphasises one of the difficulties which the chair has in administering Standing Order No. 9. If the chance of a Standing Order No. 9 debate is an excuse for the Government not to find time or for the Opposition not to choose the subject for a Supply Day, that is an easy way out for the usual channels. A Standing Order No. 9 application is useful to them in such circumstances. However, I have never accepted that view, and I regard such applications as being matters to be considered in the proper way according to the Standing Order. I consider each case on its merits.

SOLICITORS (AMENDMENT) BILL
Mr. English: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I ask you, Mr. Speaker, to clear up a matter of some considerable confusion. The Solicitors (Amendment) Bill is proceeding through the House in Committee, having passed through another place. On Thursday morning the Committee ascertained that there is proceeding through another place the Solicitors Bill, which is a consolidation measure. On Wednesday the Joint Consolidation Committee of both places met to consider the second Bill. That Bill describes as an Act the contents of the Solicitors (Amendment) Bill, the latter not yet having been passed by Parliament.
As the Joint Consolidation Committee has no power to do other than con
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solidate the law and to amend it only in minor respects, I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether the Committee has any jurisdiction to consider this Bill and whether you will direct hon. Members not to attend such a Committee to discuss the Solicitors Bill. Secondly, I ask you, Mr. Speaker, to consider the fact that a Bill is before another place which implies that this House will pass another Bill without any amendment.
Mr. Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. English) and to the hon. Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Price) for giving me notice of this matter. I have therefore had the opportunity to consider it. I understand that the Solicitors Bill [Lords], a consolidation Bill at present in another place, includes the provisions of the Solicitors (Amendment) Bill which is now in Committee in this House.
There is nothing novel about that situation. The object of this manner of proceeding is to save time and to ensure that when a consolidation Bill becomes law it is as fully up to date as it is possible to make it. This House is in no way precluded from amending the Solicitors (Amendment) Bill, and any amendments which this House makes and which are agreed to in another place will automatically be inserted in the consolidation Bill before it leaves this House.
Mr. Christopher Price: On a further point of order, Mr. Speaker, I take the point that you have made, Mr. Speaker. But is it not an affront to the privilege of hon. Members of this House that another place should purport to introduce a Bill which could mean that hon. Members of this House completely wasted their time by considering in Committee matters on the Solicitors (Amendment) Bill which might become redundant by the Report stage and Third Reading, if those stages are reached? A point of privilege is concerned when another place presumes to take decisions and to describe the Bill as the Solicitors (Amendment) Act 1974. Some of my hon. Friends think that this is an affront to a Committee of the House which is working very hard on the Bill upstairs.
Mr. Speaker: I will consider what has been said.
Mr. English: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Whatever the precedents in other cases, the present Solicitors (Amendment) Bill is the fourth such Bill brought before this House. Originally we were told as back benchers that the first Bill could not be amended in Committee because it had been agreed by the Law Society and was a private Bill. On the second occasion, the Law Society agreed to meet us but would not agree to amend its Bill. The third and fourth have been Government measures. In view of that history, the rather sordid implications of the Solicitors (Amendment) Bill are obvious to those of us who have been discussing these measures for some four years.
Mr. Speaker: I recollect some of the suggestions made by the hon. Gentleman from time to time in the last Parliament. I understand that there is nothing novel about this procedure. It is designed to save time. I think that there has to be a balance. One has to consider whether it is saving time or not, as the hon. Gentleman has said, and those who manage the business of both Houses will no doubt take into account the points which both hon. Members have made.
Mr. R. C. Mitchell: Further to that point of order. Is there a precedent for a Joint Committee of both Houses to sit on a consolidation measure which consolidates something which has not yet gone from this House?
Mr. Speaker: I am informed of the following precedents: The Industrial Injuries and Diseases Act 1967, the Export Guarantees Act 1968, and the Prevention of Oil Pollution Act 1971. I have not had time to examine each of these Acts in detail, but I am advised that they are precedents.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  RAILWAYS BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Mr. Speaker: I have not selected the amendment declining to give the Bill a Second Reading.
  4.9 p.m.
  The Minister for Transport (Mr. Frederick Mulley): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  This is the Bill for which the House has been waiting to put right the financial support for British Railways and introduce a much more satisfactory system of support and control of British Rail's operations, which now need annual support on revenue account from the Government of about £300 million.
  Since July 1972 the board's increasing losses have been met through cash shortfall payments without proper statutory authority on the basis of the Vote Estimates and the annual Appropriation Act. It is now urgently necessary to enact legislation which will give express authority for these large payments and at the same time enable the Government and the House to exercise more control over the expenditure than under the present arrangement.
  The House is, of course, familiar with the enduring financial problems of railways, not only in this country but abroad, where, in fact, the subventions are often higher than here. For example, the French Government give support of over £600 million a year, while the Germans pay almost twice that. The figures are not, however, strictly comparable since these railways have not had their capital debts written off to the same extent. The fact remains, as far as I have been able to discover, that there is no large railway system in the world which is not in substantial deficit.
  The first statutory attempt of recent years to set matters right was the Transport Act 1962, which wrote off or suspended interest payments on the major part of the debt to the Government. The Act also gave powers to pay deficit grants for a period of up to five years, but, in fact, the money ran out well before the period ended, despite the considerable

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  achievements of management and the railway trade unions and workers in increasing productivity through reducing manpower and more efficient use of railway assets.
  It is clear from the amendment on the Order Paper that a number of hon. Members opposite are particularly concerned about the current industrial relations problems on the railways. I shall listen with interest to what they have to say, but I ask them to consider the recent problems against the background of a long period of very reasonable industrial relations on the whole during a time of enormous difficulty. I am persuaded that the sort of measure which I hope the House will agree to today will help us to get back to a more harmonious relationship, which is essential if we are to achieve the purpose which I am sure the House wishes us to achieve through the Bill.
  The failure of the 1962 Act led to the 1968 Transport Act, which recognised for the first time that the railways were entitled to State support for passenger services operated for social reasons which they were not allowed to close. In all, this Act relieved the board's revenue account by about £150 million a year.
  However, it is significant that throughout this period of chronic deficit there was no recognition by the Government of the full extent of the underlying un-profitability of railway operations and the need for much more broadly-based support. Nor was this apparent for a year or two after the 1968 Act, when, owing to the relief given to their accounts by the financial reconstruction, the railways made a small book profit. However, by early 1972 the underlying trend of deteriorating finance was again evident.
  The previous Government, therefore, put in hand a further review with a view to establishing whether there could be a viable railway network at all and what railway system should be provided in the public interest, taking account of social and environmental factors.
  This Bill is the outcome and it gives statutory recognition for the first time to the fact that the railways are not a normal nationalised industry but a unique type of public corporation which exists to serve social and environmental purposes as well as the economic needs. I
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  should like to acknowledge the contribution of my predecessor the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton), who asked for the review and who, as I understand it, reached a similar conclusion.
  The heart of the Bill lies in Clauses 3 and 4, which provide the basis for a comprehensive new support and control system. They enable the Government to place a general obligation on British Railways to provide passenger services and to compensate them for doing so. The Government will have full powers to define the network of services to be supported and to lay down the conditions under which payments will be made. There is to be a limit on the total amount of grant which may be paid of £900 million initially, which may be increased to £1,500 million if the House agrees by affirmative resolution, following which there would be a need for further legislation.
  Mr. J. Bruce-Gardyne: I was dazzled to hear the Minister say in his opening remarks that the Bill would provide for more control over expenditure. Will he explain—because the answer does not leap immediately to mind—how Clause 3 provides more control over expenditure than that which existed under Section 39 of the 1968 Act since the earlier legislation required the subsidised railway services to be specified, whereas this Bill does not?
  Mr. Mulley: The hon. Gentleman has made a good point. What he failed to do was to listen to what I said when I indicated that since 1972 the previous Government, without statutory authority, had been making deficit payments. It is that problem to which this matter is mainly addressed. To be fair, my predecessor in the Conservative Government was as concerned about it as I was when I took office. I have never known of a closure proposal where the figures given were not strenuously contested.
  Mr. John Peyton: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will confirm that he never objected to the Conservative Government's attitude to the mounting deficits.
  Mr. Mulley: I confirm that I did not object. The right hon. Gentleman's recollection will tell him that at the time of his statement in July from which the

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  proposal in the Bill stemmed about reimbursing the railways for costs incurred because they could not increase their fares I suggested that he should seek permanent powers over railway finances. The powers sought will give Parliament additional opportunity to review from time to time the operation of the new grant system.
  The significant change made by Clause 3 from the 1968 Act régime is that the grant is to be on a comprehensive basis for the whole network of passenger services and will no longer consist of a large number of specific grants for particular services.
  Mr. Cranley Onslow Mr. Cranley Onslow (Woking) rose—
  Mr. Mulley: I shall be happy to give way, but I hope that no one will complain that in a short debate the Minister took too long.
  Mr. Onslow: I was not aware that this was necessarily a short debate, but, leaving that aside, may I put this to the right hon. Gentleman? He said that the Bill would give Parliament the opportunity from time to time to take account of the use of the powers. Will he elaborate on what he means by "from time to time"? Is it not true to say that it is only when the limits need to be raised that Parliament will have an opportunity to take account of the way in which the powers are being used?
  Mr. Mulley: The hon. Gentleman has been a Member for quite a time and he knows that hon. Members' power to ask questions of Ministers and Ministers' responsibility to the House depend on areas where the Minister has power. The fact that the Minister now has greater power to ask for information would, I should have thought, have extended the scope of that power. I should not have thought that the hon. Gentleman would have wanted me to tell him that.
  Apart from the fact that the 1968 system has proved in the event to be inadequate, it suffers from the disadvantage that there is great difficulty in allocating the joint costs of common track and other facilities to the many services which use them.
  The proposal to provide finance through the passenger business is also justified by
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  the fact that the bulk of the costs of the railway in providing and maintaining expensive, high quality track and signalling is attributable to the needs of passenger services. It would be possible to run a much lower cost railway if this were needed for freight operations only, but that, of course, is not our situation. The board now gets the greater part of railway revenue from passenger operations.
  I should also mention that we are further assisting the board through a financial reconstruction. This will recognise that the provision of track and signalling is a process of continuous replacement rather than of remunerative capital investment. It is not, therefore, reasonable to continue to saddle the railways system with historic debt charges, nor with new charges arising on track and signalling expenditure in future.
  Accordingly, we intend to meet the cost of much of this work through the proposed grant, and the board's debt will be adjusted accordingly. The only major exceptions to this will be in respect of expenditure on new routes and major electrification schemes. As a consequence, the Bill provides in Clause 1 for a reconstruction of the board's balance sheet by reducing its debt to the Secretary of State to £250 million. This results from a net write-off of nearly £200 million, giving an annual interest relief of about £15 million.
  But this comprehensive financial assistance does not mean that we are giving the board a blanket subsidy regardless of efficiency and financial considerations. On the contrary, the present open-ended drain of shortfall payments will be replaced by a carefully considered régime of control and review. In the first place, Clause 4 of the Bill will require the Railways Board to act on lines settled from time to time with the approval of the Government in formulating policies and plans for the general conduct of its business. It is not my intention, in seeking this power, to derogate from the responsibilities of the board and its managers.
  The Government cannot manage railway services directly, and do not intend to do so. This is the job of the board. But, at the same time, we need to set up a control system which will provide a means by which we can monitor the grant expenditure. We shall need to be satisfied about the estimates of grant

  1009
  which will be needed and the value for money which the community are getting in return for the assistance to the railways, and to have sufficient information to enable the Government to discharge this duty.
  There will also be a comprehensive monitoring system under which the Government will review systematically each important part of the board's passenger activities over a period of years.
  Mr. Keith Stainton: The right hon. Gentleman knows that I have taken part in these debates for several years. He has referred to the write-down in the balance sheet. Can he tell the House what was in last year's accounts of British Rail as the net asset value of the undertaking, and what was the net asset value as a result of the write-down?
  Mr. Mulley: I cannot quote those figures offhand. They are available, as the hon. Member has said, in the accounts of British Rail. I see that he has a copy of the accounts before him. I suggest that he looks at them while I get on.
  The monitoring system to which I referred will enable us to form a view about the continued justification for supporting services and point to any areas where the community are getting poor value for money for the grant paid. As I told the House on 13th May, there will be no closures of substance in 1974. Moreover, I am now reviewing all the services in the closure machinery.
  I understand that certain local authorities have shown interest in making a contribution to keep services going, at least until their longer-term future as part of a co-ordinated local transport system can be examined. I welcome this approach. But, while we have accepted the need for a network of passenger services of roughly the present size, and ruled out any substantial closure programme, it would be unrealistic to expect each and every service to continue unchanged for all time.
  Mr. W. Benyon: Can the right hon. Gentleman be more specific about the time scale? Is he aware that one particular line in my constituency is due for closure at the end of the year, even with the allowance which has been
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  made? Does this mean that the review will take place from the end of this year, or will there be more time?
  Mr. Mulley: It means that I am reviewing individual cases now. As soon as I am able I will announce the outcome of the review.
  Before I turn to the other important provisions of the Bill, it may be of interest to the House to have a brief indication of how the Government see the future of railway investment and associated policies, for which new legislation is not required. For the present year the level of investment will be that set by the last Government, as modified by the then Chancellor last December. As regards the future, it is too early to say what the outcome will be of the review which the Government are carrying out of all the public expenditure programmes which we have inherited.
  I can, however, tell the House that we accept in general the strategies put forward by British Railways last year and will provide an appropriate level of investment to implement them, subject of course to the general economic situation, as with all other expenditure programmes. In practical terms, this means that we accept that the railways network should be of roughly its present size and that commuter and inter-city passenger services should be improved with new rolling stock, including high speed diesels and the advanced passenger train, modernised terminals and better interchanges. Increased expenditure on the maintenance and improvement of track and signalling will give even higher standards of safety and operating efficiency and will also allow for higher running speeds. Freight services will also continue to be improved with computer controlled wagon movements and new wagons.
  Mr. Arthur Jones: The right hon. Gentleman is broadening his remarks to take into account other Government expenditure. I assume that he is referring to the road programme. Do the increased resources going to the railways mean that the effect will be to reduce the total road network by 10 pet cent. with a similar reduction in the standards of road building?
  Mr. Mulley: No. The point I was making, with which I thought the House

  1011
  was well acquainted, was that the Government are reviewing all public expenditure programmes as from 1st April next. No programme has been given firm figures beyond that date. Railways and roads are in the same situation as every other aspect of Government policy.
  The transfer of freight from road to rail, where this offers advantages to the community, will be an important aim of our policy. The railways are particularly well suited to carrying regular flows of bulk and heavy freight. The board has had considerable success recently in maintaining its freight business after the substantial drop of a year or two ago. Great improvements have already been made and a better service will be provided in future as more locomotives and new wagons are produced to meet what is an increasing demand for the rail carriage of the heavier traffics. The brighter future which the Government have in mind for the coal industry will particularly help.
  However, it is important to recognise that there are limits to the extent to which freight can be transferred from road to rail. Much road traffic is carried for short distances between places not served by direct rail links, and such traffic could not very well be attracted to rail, except where it is of a special nature, such as pit-head coal moving in bulk. But where goods are carried long distances or in bulk quantities rail is an appropriate and economic mode of transport which has great environmental advantages. I have written to the chairmen or managing directors of almost 100 large companies and had an encouraging response to my request that they should discuss with British Railways in which they could make more use of the railway freight services.
  Mr. Peyton: It might be gracious for the Minister to acknowledge that he is following absolutely the lead given by myself and the previous Government.
  Mr. Mulley: If the right hon. Gentleman had not been so impatient he would have let me get to that point in my speech. The original proposal was made to the right hon. Gentleman last autumn by the Freight Transport Association, and, although the election did not come until January, that proposal was not im
  1012
  plemented. I know that there were problems in working out exactly how it could be done. I said at the time in my Press notice that I had taken up the proposal put to the right hon. Gentleman by the Freight Transport Association, and I certainly do not wish to take any credit away from him. If he wants to be cantankerous, I would point out that I am making this speech after only three-and-a-half months in office, whereas the right hon. Gentleman had my job for three-and-a-half years.
  Mr. Robert Adley: Does the Minister confirm that the hoped-for increase in long-haul traffic going by rail to which he referred would be immeasurably assisted by the Channel Tunnel?
  Mr. Mulley: As I said in the Channel Tunnel debate, I personally should not be inclined towards having a Channel Tunnel were it not for the possibilities it might open up for British Railways. If I broaden my speech to take in all these points, the House will properly show its impatience.
  The Bill makes two important contributions towards helping railways freight. First, the new support system I have described recognises that the bulk of the joint cost of the railways system is attributable to passenger operations. Most freight traffic is carried over lines which would need to exist in any case to carry passenger traffic, and the standard of maintenance and signalling on those lines is at a much higher standard than would be required for freight operations. I therefore intend that the grant under Clause 3 should be so structured that freight operations would have to bear only a relatively small, though fair, share of the joint costs of track signalling and administration.
  Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: The right hon. Gentleman referred——
  Mr. Leslie Spriggs: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Since the Minister rose at the Dispatch Box to move the Second Reading of the Bill there have been a large number of interjections. I understand that this is to be a very short debate. May we have your protection, please?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Oscar Murton): That is not a point of order.

  1013
  If a Minister decides to give way to an interjection, it is entirely within his own competence to do so.
  Mr. Mulley: I will give way to the hon. Member for South Angus (Mr. Bruce-Gardyne). It would be helpful if he stayed during the debate. He may want to ask me about something which he missed while he was away.
  Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: There is all the the time in the world for the debate—until 10 o'clock. The right hon. Gentleman referred to a fair apportionment of the costs to freight, as between freight and passenger services. Who will adjudicate on what is fair?
  Mr. Mulley: That will be done under the arrangements for consultation between the Department and the Railways Board, and will take into account the points I have just mentioned, which perhaps the hon. Gentleman missed.
  Secondly, the Bill provides in Clause 8 for a new grant from central Government, not, as has been suggested, from local authorities, to assist the construction of private sidings, including associated depots, access roads and equipment, where this will encourage industry to send suitable traffic by rail. These grants could be made where, given suitable facilities, there would be a scope for transferring freight from road to rail and where this would be desirable from a local environmental point of view but where this would not occur normally since it would require additional investment by industry.
  The remaining important purpose of the Bill is to effect a long-needed rationalisation of the arrangement for financing the board's pension obligations, which at present have a serious effect on its current finances, arising from the fact that it has inherited pension obligations from the past which simply cannot be financed by railway operations and which are inescapable. The Bill, therefore, provides in Clauses 5, 6 and 7 for these to be funded over a period by the board with the help of grant from the Government, and also for grant for repayment of money invested in the railways business by the pension funds. These are technical issues which are perhaps best explored in Committee, but they will involve a Government commitment over the years to provide even
  1014
  tually further finance of over £1,000 million.
  Before concluding, I should briefly mention the two other clauses of the Bill. Clause 2 increases the board's borrowing powers to £600 million, extendable to £900 million by affirmative resolution. Clause 9 enables salaries to be paid to the chairmen of transport consultative committees, as is already the position in other nationalised industries.
  In all, the measures set out in the Bill will give British Railways support as never before. They result from a comprehensive review of the railways business which showed that if the country is to continue to have a railways system of any significant size it will require substantial Government support for the foreseeable future. Governments of all parties have had to make, and will continue to have to make, difficult decisions about the amount of the support which can be provided in the light of other claims on public expenditure, but I hope I have indicated that our acceptance of the broad strategies initiated by the board provide an assurance of continuing support by this Government.
  I do not claim that the arrangements will turn out to be perfect or, indeed, provide a lasting solution to the perennial railway problem, but I do justifiably claim that the support being provided gives the railways a better deal than they ever had in the past and an opportunity for management and men to increase productivity through higher investment and give the community a fair return in social and environmental terms for the financial support they must have to remain in existence.
  I am convinced that the great majority of our people desire to maintain and improve our railway system and are prepared to will the means to achieve this end. I trust, too, that our constituents. who have so strongly in recent years advocated this course, will give British Railways their practical as well as their political support by using its services, both passenger and freight, to the maximum extent possible.
  4.38 p.m.
  Mrs. Margaret Thatcher: We are debating the Bill under some difficulty because we are without the

  1015
  1973 report and accounts, although the 1972 report and accounts were laid over a year ago. We are, therefore, having to make our observations only on the 1972 report and on the known deficit then, which was £26·2 million after subsidy on the old basis. We have no idea what 1973 has produced, except perhaps for a report in The Times of Saturday—and I must point out that reports in The Times are not always true—to the effect that the deficit for last year might be £50 million and that there are in the pipeline substantial increases in salary bills.
  We are also without a White Paper on future strategy, as was promised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) last November when he made his statement. He said at that time that he would embody his proposals in a Bill and that there would be a transport White Paper underlining the greater emphasis which the Government were giving to the railways and other forms of public transport. We expected that White Paper to accompany the Bill. We are today faced with bigger subsidies, bigger costs and bigger fares without having been given the proper information on which to base a judgment.
  It appears that there is some urgency about the Bill, first, because even on the 1972 accounts British Railways were not far from the limit of their borrowing power and, secondly, because the system of special grants in operation from 27th July 1972 to cover financial deterioration amounting to £32 million that year, as the Minister said, has not been put into legislation but it must have been the subject of a supplementary estimate at the time and could, therefore, have been raised and debated in the House in the usual way.
  We could perhaps have dispensed with either the 1973 report or the White Paper had the history of dealing with the railways over the last 10 or 15 years been one of steady continuation along the same path, but it has not. The whole philosophy of the Transport Act 1968 is now reversed. That legislation was based on two propositions. The first was that the railways had no hope, from profits on their other passenger services and on freight work, of supporting the many non-paying passenger services which they were expected to retain. The services which
  1016
  required help were to be identified and separately costed so that a conscious decision could be made whether the maintenance of the service was justified in the light of its cost. This was done, and the list is given at the back of the annual report, with the cost against each. I suggest that that is a very valuable list indeed.
  We understand that there has been some difficulty in accounting procedures, but at least there was some financial discipline. If the right hon. Gentleman and his staff found difficulty with those accounting procedures, they are certainly going to find difficulty in allocating overheads for signalling and track between passenger services and freight. All accounting problems are difficult and involve certain assumptions, but we should not fail to attempt them and then replace the whole thing by an open-ended subsidy.
  Mr. Mulley: The real trouble about the accounting procedures for individual grant-aided lines was not that they could not be worked out according to the Cooper Brothers formula but that in all public discussion about closure proposals the public were never prepared to accept the very large figures which were always involved.
  Mrs. Thatcher: I suppose the right hon. Gentleman has used that argument to go to a system of total deficit financing, and I would question the wisdom of that course. It appears that there is no financial incentive involved in the new system.
  The second thing that came out of the 1968 legislation was that capital debt was to be written down to a level at which it was reasonable to expect that interest payments could be met out of revenue in the early 1970s. The debt, therefore, was written down from £1,562 million to £300 million. That was a very short time ago, but even that hope and expectation has gone. Within two years the strategy ran into difficulty, and has now been abandoned. That policy itself was wholly different from the one devised five years earlier under the Beeching plan. Within a decade there have been two policies and both have been abandoned. This is difficult enough for politicians, but it is even more difficult for those who run the railways. They must plan ahead if

  1017
  the service is to continue, and must have a clear basis and a financial programme on which to do it.
  Looking at it from the consumer's viewpoint, we all know that yesterday there were fare and freight increases of 12½ per cent. and 15 per cent. respectively. The commuter well remembers the almost total dislocation of services last winter during the ASLEF work-to-rule when the passenger was expected to suffer, and did suffer, intolerable conditions. Yet he still has to put his hands in both pockets to pay—first for the season ticket, and then for the subsidy—and he was not getting anything that could remotely be called a service.
  Before we give this Bill a Second Reading we shall want to be assured, on behalf of the travelling public, by the Minister of Transport or the Secretary of State for Employment that there will be no repetition of those events. Against the unusual background of there having been two U-turns in strategy in 10 years in a nationalised industry which is supposed to be a panacea for everything, we are now trying to plan for the future.
  The heart of the Bill is in Clause 3, which alters the basis of support from specific grants to general deficit financing. I should like to say a word or two about general deficit financing. First, I believe that it is bad for the morale of those who work on the railways. During the first two years after the Transport Act 1968, when the railways made a profit, I had the impression that this was very good indeed for the morale of all those who worked in the service. They could hold up their heads and say that they were part of a flourishing and profitable concern, and the whole spirit and atmosphere of the industry seemed to change. Then they got back into difficulties again. I am wondering whether it is now right to go to a wholly open-ended subsidy system.
  Clause 3 also refers to two EEC regulations and somehow conveys the impression that the doctrine of support for the whole system rather than specific support for separate parts is inherent in the two regulations. That just is not so. I have been all the way through both regulations, and the language is just as consistent, if not more so, with separate subsidies for
  1018
  a part, as it is for subsidies for the whole passenger system. Indeed, the regulation commences by condemning that which it goes on to permit. It begins:
  "Member States shall terminate all obligations inherent in the concept of a public service as defined in this Regulation imposed on transport by rail, road and inland water way. Nevertheless, such obligations may be maintained in so far as they are essential in order to ensure the provision of adequate transport services."
  The whole philosophy appears to be that if one subsidises a part one must look at the effect on the whole. This is much more akin to the philosophy of the 1968 Transport Act than to a general subsidy.
  Mr. Mulley: I do not know where the right hon. Lady gets the idea that we have changed the situation because of the EEC regulations. That is not so. The change comes about because of the nature of the system. I was extremely moved, incidentally, to hear the right hon. Lady speak so movingly about the troubles of the railways and the travelling public. I was trying to search my mind as to who was responsible for the railways at that time when they turned from a small profit to a deficit. It was the then Government and their actions from which the travelling public suffered.
  Mrs. Thatcher: I know the right hon. Gentleman knows this Bill very well, but it appears he does not know quite as well the wording of the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum, which in relation to Clause 3 uses the curious language:
  "Clause 3 repeals section 39 of the 1968 Transport Act under which the Secretary of State makes grants to the British Railways Board for individual unremunerative passenger services, and which has become otiose in view of the new methods of financial support for the whole rail passenger system established by the EEC transport regulations mentioned below."
  I think that conveys the impression which I indicated in my speech. I am trying to say that the EEC regulations are just as consistent with the 1968 system of support as they are with the one proposed in the Bill, and there should be no question of using the EEC regulations to justify the change of system. The choice of general deficit financing is that adopted by the present Government. I believe that the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil on 28th

  1019
  November 1973 was rather different. He then said:
  "Unremunerative passenger services should be kept in being as long as they are justified on social and environmental grounds."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th November 1973; Vol. 865, c. 398.]
  My third point on Clause 3 is that grants appear to be limited, if that is the right word, to a maximum of £1,500 million over five years—an average of £300 million per year. It is difficult to justify this massive amount on the 1972 accounts, which are the only ones we have. I have been through those accounts, and, so far as I can see, in grants and loans the Government in that year gave between £150 million and £160 million to the railways. We are now asked for double that sum. In that year the grants for unremunerative services were £68 million. Those for maintenance of certain track and signalling equipment were £8 million. The grants under the 1972 (Grants) Act to compensate for price restraint were £27 million, the special grant consequent upon the July 1972 statement was £32 million, the infrastructure grant of a capital nature was £5·6 million, and the loan was £14 million. Now we face a Bill for about double that amount, or powers to subsidise up to double that amount, without any figures upon which to base our judgment.
  Mr. Ronald Atkins: Confirming what the right hon. Lady says, that we are trying to step up our contributions to the railways in line with what is happening on the Continent—I think that she has a point there—the fact is that help to the French railways and the German railways is respectively £500 million and £600 million. In fact, even in the Bill we are still paying very much less than Continental countries do to their State railways.
  Mrs. Thatcher: I understood from the Minister that that did not take into account the massive capital write-offs which seem to occur with ever-increasing regularity. I gave the figure for the 1968 Transport Act. There is another write-off here, and that is another way of giving away very large sums of money. We would like to have some more detailed figures upon which to make a judgment.
  1020
  My fourth point is that the clause provides for the Secretary of State to impose on the Railways Board obligations of a general nature as regards all or part of the railway passenger system. I wonder what general directions the right hon. Gentleman will give in the interests of passengers. He can also attach conditions to the payment. Can he say whether he has any specific ones in mind?
  This clause and the next one give the Secretary of State considerable powers and will subject him to endless parliamentary Questions. I am not sure that Governments are altogether equipped to exercise these powers. It is often better to exercise powers by some financial discipline. Is the right hon. Gentleman satisfied that the administrative system in the Department can formulate and proffer the requisite advice? That is no criticism of those in the Department. It is more a query about the system itself, which sometimes seems to dominate us all. We lay a duty on the Minister to give directions to those who run the railways. Those who advise the Minister what directions to give do not run railways, probably have never run railways and may well profoundly hope that they never will. Can they do anything more than check their arithmetic and tell the board that the requisite sums amount to too much? If so, would not it be better if the board had a capital and revenue budget at the outset with a sum for contingencies within which it has to keep? Is not that position different from an open-ended subsidy? The danger with the right hon. Gentleman's chosen system is that it will be a green light for maximum wage and salary demands on the ground that the taxpayers will pay, however large the bill.
  According to the Economist of 15th June 1974, British Railway's contribution to the transport system is 8 per cent. of passenger miles and 19 per cent. of freight-ton miles. The rest goes via road—
  Mr. Leslie Huckfield: Nonsense.
  Mrs. Thatcher:—or air. We are voting enormous annual sums which are demanded from the many people who never use the service.

  1021
  The Minister may reply that he has extensive capital plans to enable the railways to be used more intensively, although he did not say that today. I understand that he is carrying on the old plans with the reductions made in the December announcement.
  Hitherto, we have always assumed that the railways had some kind of environmental advantage over roads. That was the position until recently. Recently we have faced the prospect of having a new railway line built. I believe that it is the first for a century. Who should be the first to object but those who live near the proposed new railway line to the Channel tunnel? Upon what grounds should they object but environmental grounds? It may be that if we use our railways more intensively, like the Japanese run theirs—I gather that their system is equal to the size of ours, moving three times as much freight and six times as many passengers—the noise, vibration and air currents become so great that the environmental advantages may go altogether, especially when we remember that we are going in for high-speed trains and advanced passenger trains and on a new line with very short time intervals between trains.
  It may be that we are too ready to assume that the environmental advantages lie with the railways. As we have not put in new railways people may have got used to living beside the old system at its old timetable frequency.
  Mr. Peter Snape: The procedures given to members of the public to object against the high-speed railway link in connection with the Channel Tunnel are different from and more generous to the public than the opportunities given to them to object to motorway development. Will the right hon. Lady say what, in her opinion, is the number of objections received from members of the public who live alongside existing railway lines compared with the number received from people who live adjacent to motorways and heavily used urban trunk roads?
  Mrs. Thatcher: I find that there is maximum objection to proposals for a new motorway. Hitherto, we have had nothing to compare it with, since there has been no proposal for a new railway until now, and I do not think that those
  1022
  living alongside the proposed new rail link will agree that they have had more generous time or opportunity for making their protest. Part of their protest is that both the time and the methods for objecting have been far too limited.
  Having made those comments about Clause 3, I come to Clause 1, which is said to reflect the new accounting system whereby infrastructure assets previously on capital account will henceforth be charged to revenue account.
  As the right hon. Gentleman said, hitherto track and signalling renewal has been accounted as capital. Now it will be accounted as revenue. There is a clearly understood commercial difference. If we maintain, it is revenue. If we replace with a brand new greatly improved system—large sections of track or putting in a new signalling system with computers—clearly it is capital. There can be no argument about that.
  The change is occurring for a different reason. Even if it is accounted as capital, it will have to be written off in a few years anyway, so why not write it off as we go along by accounting it as revenue? Looking at it cynically, it might not be a bad idea. But it is not necessarily good accountancy practice.
  Clause 2 deals with the capital programme. I have one small technical question on it. I expect that the Minister will say that it has been the practice for years and that I did not know about it, but there is no reference in the Long Title to the increase in the borrowing powers of the Railways Board. The Long Title does not deal with it. It says:
  "A Bill to amend the law relating to the British Railways Board…"
  Then it jumps straight to Clause 3 and the other clauses. Is that customary?
  Mr. Mulley: I cannot claim to be an expert parliamentary draftsman, and the right hon. Lady has a distinguished legal past. Since the borrowing powers are part of the law relating to the British Railways Board, I think that those words enable us to amend the borrowing powers.
  Mrs. Thatcher: It may be that words in italics never get into the Long Title, and some Bills consist almost entirely of words in italics. However, normally I

  1023
  should expect an increase in the borrowing powers to the extent contained in this Bill, up to £900 million, to be worthy of mention in the Long Title. I am sure that there is a good reason. We would like to know what it is because we never think about these matters until we have to do the work involved and then we discover all kinds of small points like this.
  I understand that this increase is for the same interim rail strategy as that announced by my right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil when he had responsibility. I assume that these borrowing powers are sufficient to take into account the rail link for the Channel Tunnel. However, we would like to know whether that is so.
  I turn now to other activities of British Railways. One very profitable activity appears to have escaped attention. British Railways are major property owners. I understand from the 1972 report that they are one of the country's six largest landowners. The net rental income is about the same as that obtained from property owned by the Crown Estates and the Church Commissioners combined. The net receipts amount to £13·9 million. This income is obtained from a wide range of items on the rent roll.
  I mention this matter to point out that there is a great deal of property in the hands of a wide range of people, because it is owned by nationalised industries as well as by pension and insurance funds.
  The Bill provides further proof, if such proof is needed, that the nationalisation of an industry does not solve any of its problems. The railways have been nationalised for over 25 years, and successive Governments, both Conservative and Labour, have failed either to solve the railways' financial problems or to find a satisfactory way of reconciling reasonable freedom of management in the running of the industry with proper accountability to Parliament for the enormous public funds involved.
  The Bill raises many questions and problems. It is accepted that there must be a substantial railway system. But must we always pour money in at this rate? There is no guarantee that the assets created will be used to the optimum
  1024
  extent. A significant phrase in the 1972 report, in the section on freight, states:
  "The biggest loss resulted from industrial disputes…"
  That was referring to disputes in other industries as well as on the railways.
  We would like a flourishing railway service from the viewpoint not only of those who work in and have retired from it, but of those who use it as passengers or for transporting freight.
  The Government have demonstrated their willingness to take all reasonable steps to this end and to commit the taxpayer to expending large sums of money. We now have to rely on those who run and work in the industry to ensure that those who use it will receive value for money.
  5.3 p.m.
  Mr. Tom Bradley: I warmly welcome the Bill.
  Perhaps I should begin by declaring a personal interest. I am the President of the Transport Salaried Staffs' Association, which is the second largest trade union operating in railway negotiations. Prior to coming into this House I worked on the railways. If disaster overtakes me at the next General Election I presume that I shall have to work for the railways again. Therefore, I have a very deep interest in the future development and security of the railways' business. I believe that the Bill will help towards achieving those twin objectives.
  I regretted the appearance on the Order Paper of the amendment in the names of several hon. Gentlemen opposite. Frankly, I think that it suggested a situation in the railways trades unions which does not exist. Many of those who are working and bargaining within the railway industry are moving towards a constructive approach to secure prosperity for the industry. We believe that we have an identity of interest with management. It is better to negotiate within an industry that is in the black than one that is always in the red. Therefore, those of us who are working for a constructive approach within the industry and for greater cooperation between the railway unions where differences exist are not helped in our work by the mischievous amendment which appears in the name of the hon. Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow), who obviously wishes to intervene.
  Mr. Cranley Onslow: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for allowing me to intervene straight away. I do not think that the House will necessarily judge my amendment as being mischievous. At least, it has served one useful purpose so far without my having to speak to it; that is, to extract from the hon. Gentleman the sentiments that he has just expressed. The more that he and his colleagues on the railways can live up to those high sentiments, the more likely the public will believe that they will get value for money. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will take it from me that commuters, of whom I am one, have not so far had the assurances to which they are entitled on this matter.
  Mr. Bradley: With respect, if the hon. Gentleman knew more about the railway industry and the trades unions that bargain within it he would have known not only my views but the views of Sir Sidney Greene and others who are doing their best to get the kind of approach that will produce the results that we all have in mind. However, the amendment has not been called, so there is little point in discussing it. I just wanted to make that observation.
  The Bill represents, after many years of argument, a recognition finally that Britain needs its railways as much as its roads. The implications are that we should no longer delude ourselves that the railways can or should produce a profit in conventional accountancy terms. From now on we have official recognition that the railways' value in environmental, energy and social aspects is to be fully appreciated by annual payments tied to no rigid formula.
  The post-war history of railways finance is well known. Some of it has been rehearsed by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Transport and by the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher). It is worth recalling, since the right hon. Lady referred to the patchwork of solutions that successive Governments have brought in in recent years to financial problems that have repeated themselves far too often, that much of this trouble started after the Conservative Government were elected in 1951 and began the process of breaking up the British Transport Commission and its subsidiary, British Road Services.
  1026
  Prior to 1953 we had an integrated system of public transport, or at least the shell of an integrated system of public transport, which was beginning to produce results. It is no accident that in 1952 we saw the last surplus achieved after payment of interest by the then British Railways Board.
  After 1952, following the break-up of the British Transport Commission, deficits appeared. They reached between £120 million and £150 million between 1963 and 1968. I agree with the right hon. Member for Finchley that those deficits are a dead weight on the industry and very bad for the morale of the staff. Even the massive financial reconstruction of the 1968 Act did not prevent the reappearance of deficits in 1971.
  Since then—this is part of the answer to the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) who intervened during my right hon. Friend's opening speech—piecemeal and ad hoc solutions have been applied. The right hon. Gentleman even brought in the Civil Contingencies Fund to help on one occasion. This is not good. There was no philosophy and no financial strategy. The board, with its cash flow problems, was living almost from day to day. It was clear that we needed a thorough reappraisal of what had taken place not only in 1968 but in 1962.
  It is no use the right hon. Lady complaining about the writing off of capital debt. Much of that capital debt was historic in origin and in no way reflected the true obsolescence of the assets it represented in the balance sheet. Much more certainly was needed for the financial strategy of British Railways. I believe that the Bill goes some way towards providing it.
  I hope, too, that no one in this House imagines that there has been no attempt by the railway management itself to improve matters. There have been substantial staff reductions, countless internal reorganisations, the selling off of assets and tax manipulations, not to mention line closures and the curtailment of services. On the question of staff reductions, it may come as a surprise to the right hon. Lady and to others to learn that between 1962 and 1972 the number of British Railways' staff fell by 209,000; that is to say, from 439,000 personnel to,

  1027
  just under 230,000. With a staff displacement of that order over a decade, the wonder is that we have not had more industrial friction on the railways than we have experienced.
  At the end of the day, after years of argument and barren discussion about road versus rail and the difficulties of trying to run the railways, as the Chairman of the Railways Board said the other day, like a grocery shop, the "make-it-pay" school of thought has been shown the hopelessness of its approach. There is now widespread acceptance that, along with most other railway systems throughout the world, and certainly any system operating passenger services, British Railways cannot be expected to act commercially, on the one hand, and, on the other, provide many social services. The present chairman once said that it is like trying to hit two targets with the same bullet. It cannot be done.
  It is fair to say—and I am glad that my right hon. Friend acknowledged it today—that the previous Government were coming round to this view. The right hon. Member for Yeovil underwent a considerable conversion during his period of office as Minister for Transport Industries, and in his statement last November he accepted that the existing network should remain virtually unscathed, and he held out a new investment prospect of £891 million over the next four firm investment years. British Railways, on the other hand, had asked for £1,800 million over nine investment years. We then had the Chancellor of the Exchequer within weeks saying that there would be a 20 per cent. reduction in the programme announced by the right hon. Member for Yeovil.
  I wanted to hear from my right hon. Friend today what was our Government's view of that situation. I thought that my right hon. Friend was a little vague on this. It is worrying to hear the Chairman of the Railways Board and some of his colleagues say, as they did only last week, that they are still awaiting a statement about the level of investment for British Railways next year. They do not even know their investment limit for next year. We understand that this year the figure is to remain the same as that fore
  1028
  shadowed by the right hon. Member for Yeovil, but that is not good enough.
  The real basic key to railway success is proper, large-scale—indeed, substantial—investment; otherwise the railway system will rot and decay whatever kind of current financial assistance may be brought in by this or any other Government.
  Mr. Mulley: It is true that we have not given the railways an investment figure from 1975 onwards, but nor has any other part of the public sector been given its figure. The Government came into office in March and inherited a serious economic situation and problems in the public sector. We are still working out our programme from 1st April. If we had picked out the railways it would have been the only public sector industry that had been selected, and that was not possible.
  Mr. Bradley: I am obliged to my right hon. Friend for his intervention. I am not decrying his efforts or heaping scorn upon him. He has done well to get the Bill past the Treasury, and I think that he has done extremely well to convince his more senior colleagues in the Government, who preside over Departments competing for scarce economic resources, that the railways should be put in this privileged position. I hope that my right hon. Friend will not think that I am rebuking him, but I remain of the opinion that the situation for future investment is vague. I hope that we shall receive early clarification of the position, because the British Railways Board must know not just next year's level of investment limit but that for the following years throughout the decade. The board produced a carefully reasoned policy review in June last year setting out the aims and describing the targets and the financial resources needed to obtain them.
  It is generally assumed in the Bill that the new grant support system which the Minister is introducing will involve payment of up to £1,500 million over the next five years. It is assumed that this refers exclusively to pasesenger services. Is that correct? I have no quarrel with the repeal of the grant arrangements previously made under section 39 of the 1968 Act, which focused on individual unremunerative services and their replacement by Common Market regulations. I

  1029
  welcome this not only as a good railwayman but an unrepentant European, and I am rather sorry that the right hon. Lady disturbed my confidence on that matter by going into some complex details to suggest that the Common Market was not involved in the way in which the Minister was operating. At any rate, as I understand it, this system obtains in France and Germany. The regulations are designed to compensate railways for public obligations on a much wider basis and are an advance on previous thinking about specific grants for individual unremunerative lines. Anyway, the money is there, and whether it is to do with the Common Market or anybody else does not concern me now.
  What will be the impact of this on passenger services under notice for withdrawal? Will they be reprieved? The Minister said this afternoon that they are under review. I hope very much that they are under sympathetic review. To take it a little further, will some marginal services already closed be reinstated? Many areas in my constituency locality of Leicestershire have had more than their fair share of closures, and local people will have every right to feel angry if new investment and support is concentrated exclusively on the advanced passenger train inter-city concept which affects only a small section of the community, principally business men travelling on expenses.
  I assume, however, that some part of the new money, together with the increased borrowing powers, will be devoted to freight services. The new accountancy procedure foreshadowed for track and signalling expenditure, charging to revenue and not to capital account, leads one to believe that there is to be some subsidy somewhere for freight operations, and again I have no objection to that. Just as it is right to convey people more cheaply than the real cost into urban centres by public transport to relieve road congestion, so it is right to divert some freight traffic from road to rail of a merchandise character where clearly environmental and congestion factors are involved.
  The Minister must beware of the negative approach of railway management to freight traffic. It is deliberately working itself out of the conveyance of freight except for the company train and merry
  1030
  go-round type of traffic. The wagon load concept was first denounced by Dr. Beeching as long ago as 1963, and the decline then set in accompanied by the closing of many marshalling yards. The railway policy review issued last June forecast the disappearance of another 45 million tons of this type of wagon load traffic by 1981. There are many within as well as without the industry who question this judgment. They do so on energy, economic and road congestion grounds.
  Under Clause 4 the Secretary of State can take powers over certain aspects of railway policy. I hope that he will exercise those powers in extracting from the railways their firm intentions relating to conveyance of freight traffic. I believe that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will realise that there are many people who want to see more traffic diverted from road to rail, even though it may be only a small amount—2 per cent. to 4 per cent. of the present total conveyed by road traffic is suggested to be within the category of being suitable for transference to rail. Transference of some unsuitable loads now conveyed by road and causing congestion not only would be a useful contribution to relief of that congestion and a help to the environment but would also assist railway finances in a positive way.
  On the general question of ministerial supervision of plans, is my right hon. Friend aware that difficulties in the past have arisen because of the chronic delay by his Department in reaching conclusions? There is an urgent need to get to grips with the long-term planning and investment requirements.
  I do not in any way question Government commitments to moving traffic from road to rail, and I understand that my right hon. Friend the Minister is already talking—he has today confirmed that this is so—to the famous 100 firms first promulgated by his predecessor last November. He has in mind to try to persuade or convince them of the need to convey more of their traffic by rail. But the first firm he should talk to is the National Freight Corporation. The remit of that firm was quite clear under the Transport Act 1968, yet those of us working in the industry know that one of the corporation's subsidiaries, National Carriers Limited, goes it alone and is now a fierce competitor of British Railways,

  1031
  as well as being a customer and supplier of traffic movements to British Railways.
  This is not good enough. That position was not envisaged in the 1968 Act. The National Freight Corporation and British Railways were to work hand in glove, but that has not happened. I had serious reservations about the 1968 Act when it was before the House, and I invoked the support of even the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) when I deplored the transference of Freightliners Ltd. to another company under the aegis of the National Freight Corporation, and I believe that my reservations have been borne out by the practice that has developed in recent years.
  I hope that my right hon. Friend will look carefully at the amount of traffic now being trunked by National Carriers Limited by lorries throughout the length and breadth of the land. It was originally intended that this traffic should be given to the railways for them to convey.
  The National Freight Corporation should be the number one firm on the list of 100 firms, but I suspect that it is not on the list at all.
  There is also the question of Freightliners Limited. It was always a mistake to take that firm away from railways management. Sir Stanley Raymond said that it was the brightest jewel in the railways' crown. It was a shocking error of judgment, in my view, to separate the selling and operation side of the same business and put them under different managements. It has not worked. I greatly hope that my right hon. Friend will one day bring it back entirely to British Railways, where it properly belongs. I realise that I cannot go into that matter now in great detail because to do so would be to attempt to go wide of the terms of the Bill. However, Freightliners Ltd. is a 49 per cent. owned subsidiary of British Railways, and it made a profit of £1 million in 1973, after a deficit of £500,000 in 1972. What provision is being made to assist Freightliners Ltd. with future investment? What replacement capital is to be provided for new wagons? We could reach a situation where trains run by Freightliners
  1032
  Ltd. may have to be taken out of service in the interests of safety of operation.
  If we are trying to increase utilisation of the railways, as I believe my right hon. Friend is seeking to do, it would be tragic if Freightliners Ltd. were now to be starved simply because it is a 49 per cent. owned subsidiary of British Railways. Where does Freightliners Ltd. figure in all this? What are the future investment intentions in this connection? I got no help from the right hon. Member for Yeovil regarding this when I asked him a Question on 21st December last. Apparently, Freightliners Ltd. has to get all its investment support from the National Freight Corporation, the 51 per cent. holder of its stock.
  Freightliners Ltd. has less than half the number of nation-wide depots that it was originally promised years ago. It is little wonder, therefore, that it is not yet able to provide a nation-wide system of large-scale movement of freight, as originally intended. I greatly hope that my right hon. Friend will bear these points in mind in his considerations.
  Another National Freight Corporation company, Hanson Haulage (London) Ltd., formerly a large user of Freightliners Ltd., is now transferring traffic to heavy road trunk haulage lorries. This could be avoided if more capital were given to Freightliners Ltd.
  The Bill is most welcome. It is a step in the right direction, but I remind my right hon. Friend that it deals with only one part of the nation's transport problems. The railways' activities ought to be integrated with other transport operators under national scrutiny, covering planning, investment and operations. A White Paper setting out the prospect of coordination in this respect would be as welcome as the Bill itself. A White Paper was promised by the right hon. Member for Yeovil last November, but long before that, in July 1972, I asked in the House for a White Paper. That promised White Paper did not materialise under the last administration.
  I hope that we can look forward to a statement from my right hon. Friend in the near future as to how he proposes to achieve greater co-operation within a bigger sector of public transport. In the meantime, I welcome the Bill as a useful

  1033
  provision to assist British Railways with their recurring financial problems.
  5.28 p.m.
  Mr. John Peyton: I have no quarrel with most of what the hon. Member for Leicester, East (Mr. Bradley) has said. I was interested to hear him comment on the need for a White Paper on transport. Innocent as I am in these matters, I had been led to believe, by a constant barrage of often silly Questions that I was asked about producing a White Paper on transport policy, that as soon as the right hon. Gentleman the Minister got into office he would have done some work on this subject over the years—when he had little to do in opposition—and might now have been able to produce a learned document which would shed new light on our transport problems.
  I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the fact that he has rediscovered during his period in office some of the facts of transport life which had become hidden from him while in opposition.
  I wish I could congratulate the right hon. Gentleman wholeheartedly on his speech, which no doubt out of consideration for the convenience of the House was short and meagre. He obviously thought that he did not want to cause the House great labour in thinking about the weighty information he had given us, so he spared us any such heavy diet. The hon. Member for Leicester, East, in a characteristically polite way, said that the right hon. Gentleman was a little vague.
  I constantly regret and lament the fact that after the war the Labour Party launched itself into a campaign for spreading public ownership as wide as possible for purely doctrinaire reasons and without any thought of the wider considerations of the public interest.
  I remember on one occasion when I was answering a Question at the Government Dispatch Box I said that I had never concealed what was my view—namely, that to impose public ownership upon great industries like the railways was a fiasco. There was a splendid reaction from none other than the right hon. Gentleman the present Secretary of State for Industry, under whose hand most of British industry languishes as the unwilling recipient of some of the silliest advice that has ever fountained out of a single human being. I recall on that occasion
  1034
  the right hon. Gentleman getting to his feet, his countenance blazing with a mixture of indignation and asininity as he defended this wanton assault by me upon what he regarded as the Ark of the Covenant.
  The really serious matter concerning the nationalised industries in general is that though there have been a lot of waffle and many high-sounding phrases about objectives—that these industries should pay their way, taking one year with another, and so on; that they should serve this, that and the other objective—nevertheless, the means of securing those objectives and the means of controlling the investment put into the nationalised industries have been only of the most gossamer-like kind. We still have never got near to answering the question, once we had saddled ourselves with ownership: how does one control them effectively without at the same time inhibiting management? What on earth claim—I am not being personal here—has the right hon. Gentleman the Minister, or I myself, to substitute our judgment at any time for that of the management of the railways? Furthermore, what possible ground has the Treasury for its judgments upon railway investment matters?
  I hope that it does not matter if I mention the name of a firm. Not very long ago representatives of British Insulated Callender's Cables came to see me with a view to asking that railway orders he more evenly spread over the years. I asked them to let me have a rough graph of the orders that they had received from British Rail over the past 10 or 15 years. The resulting picture was ghastly. It showed no continuity—even in the matter of cable, which the railways and everyone else could have foreseen as a continuous requirement. Although I put no blame whatever upon the right hon. Gentleman for it, the fact that it has been disclosed again this afternoon that the railways' investment for next year has still not been settled—and this at a time when long leads are common—is simply fatuous.
  I have sat in the right hon. Gentleman's seat. I know how very much easier it is to talk than to do. But I really believe that there is room for a very sustained effort on the part of Ministers to stop this

  1035
  stupid, short-sighted attitude towards investment in the nationalised industries.
  Mr. Mulley: I am glad to have the right hon. Gentleman's endorsement of the problem. In the short time that I have held my office, I have discussed this matter with the board. What we cannot give the railways now is the total figure for the next five years. But we can agree—we are working on this basis—on some of the long lead problems and long-term orders for rolling stock, and so on, which will be well below the absolute final figures. That can be done, and we intend to do it.
  Mr. Peyton: I am glad about that, and I wish the right hon. Gentleman every success in his sorties to the Treasury.
  Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Is there not a very fundamental difference? So long as we have a vast public sector and vast nationalised industries, it is absolutely inevitable that the Treasury will use those nationalised industries for purposes of fine tuning, so long as the Treasury indulges in fine tuning. It is crying to the moon to expect otherwise.
  Mr. Peyton: "Fine tuning" is a lovely phrase.
  Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: That is what the Treasury calls it.
  Mr. Peyton: The Treasury may call it "fine tuning", but it deserves some other rather clumsier and cruder term.
  The one basic factor that must be faced by all of us who have been concerned with railways over the years since the war is that no one has got it right yet. We tend to go on using rather optimistic phrases, suggesting that it will all be better next time. From the national point of view, my major fear is that we might be left in the 1980s with a derelict system which is still labour-intensive, with the overwhelming and depressing feature of constant, recurring and increasing operating deficits.
  We do not have a great mass of alternatives. We did not have a great mass of them when I was in office, and I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman has many, either. It is certainly a choice between evils. We could go for a smaller system. If we were to do that and to
  1036
  achieve at the same time any worthwhile economies, it would involve a wholesale lopping of the system and not merely a paring of the so-called unremunerative services. If it is rejected—I have never heard this policy seriously advocated—I believe that to go for the alternative of simply paring off, if one can recognise them, those services which are said to be unremunerative, or, having identified them, supporting them in some special way, leaves a lot to be desired. First, it spreads a great deal of uncertainty throughout the industry. Secondly, decisions are probably made for the wrong reasons and at the wrong times. Thirdly, the effect upon the services themselves is thoroughly bad.
  Railway management would naturally be reluctant to invest either money or management resources in a line or a service which was under sentence of closure or likely to suffer from such a sentence. Therefore, even if the Government were to decide, or had decided, to resort to a programme of closing a proportion of the present unremunerative services and of supporting the rest individually, this would not be a wise policy. It would not be a wise policy partly for the reasons that I have given—that it is prejudicial to the services—and partly because it is so very difficult to identify and to distinguish between a service which is said to be unremunerative and a service which is said to be profitable. In considering the railways, it is very difficult to get away from the fact that they are a network, and to separate out individual services is often a very fallacious and time-wasting exercise.
  The only sensible alternative is a reasonable investment policy over a period of years which will allow the railways to plan ahead. If such a policy is not adopted, the alternative will be a continuous tide of increasing operating deficits.
  I believe that the Government are, broadly speaking, right to choose that course. It had already received the endorsement of the previous Government. The Government are also right to follow the line we took in attempting to persuade major users of road transport to see whether they cannot get some of their freights back on to rail.
  I do not know what advice the right hon. Gentleman received from his right

  1037
  hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services, but if he received advice from her to the effect that he should look after that child of hers called quantity licensing he was very wise to reject her advice. It would have had involved him and his Department in such an exercise of bureaucratic cobwebs as would have made no sense and benefited no one.
  I am glad, too, that the right hon. Gentleman has continued along the course we were ourselves to take of regularising the pensions position, which had become totally disgraceful. There, I am afraid, my congratulations must cease.
  I am very sorry that the right hon. Gentleman had nothing to say about fast trains. What about the Advanced Passenger Train? What is the Govern-men's view about this train? If money is to be invested in a modern railway system, it is as well that one should have in prospect at least some new fast trains. The advanced passenger train—at least at one time—had very good prospects. It has since run into all kinds of troubles, particularly where industrial relations are concerned. I urge the Government to make their views clear as soon as possible about the future of the advanced passenger train.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) referred to the question of railway property. I confess that during the three and a half or four years that I was responsible for transport one thing I was determined to do, if I could, was to get a sensible development of property over what is now a slum—Liverpool Street, right in the middle of the City of London. We must remember—and without pride—that one of the few league tables in the world which Britain heads is the table of office rents in the City of London. We have done it all ourselves. How stupid… How absolutely absurd…
  A combination of the Department of the Environment, the Government, and the Greater London Council, was sufficient to inhibit any progress here. Yet one would have thought that it would be a very desirable project to develop sensibly the airspace over Liverpool Street to produce decent office accommodation to save thousands of people, every day, the tiresome necessity of having to take a second journey once they have got to Liverpool
  1038
  Street. We talk about commuters. Why do we not try to do something sensible?
  Yet so great is my patience, so unlimited my tolerance, that I was quite unable to make any substantial progress over such a substantial matter. I wish the right hon. Gentleman better success than I had, but he will meet opposition of the stupidest and most tiresome kind.
  I come to the question of trade union attitudes. I know very well just how difficult it is, in a declining industry, to make change not too painful for men who have a great sense of the industry they work in and the importance of their rôle in it; because the rôles of these men have nevertheless altered.
  One of the things that we in Britain are inclined to suppose in a rather sloppy way is that wherever there is a grievance, no matter how artificially fanned that grievance is, there must always be an immediate and expensive redress for which the public will have to pay. I do not believe that that premise holds water. I recognise the sensitivities of the drivers, but in many cases in their attitude to the public there has been a woeful disregard of the damage that they have inflicted on the national interest.
  Mr. Leslie Huckfield: Does the right hon. Gentleman also conclude that the drivers' attitude has been helped by the complete unwillingness from time to time of the Chairman of the British Railways Board to talk to them?
  Mr. Peyton: Every now and again one's own folly is totally proved to one. When I gave way to the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Huckfield) I had an awful feeling that I was wrong to do so. The hon. Gentleman proved it in one sentence.
  I want now to say a few words about railway management. Let us remember that we in Britain believe—I know not why—that we can pay men in high positions less than the market rate and still get the very best of service. We are very lucky in what we get. I wish to take this opportunity of saying how much I enjoyed working with Mr. Richard Marsh. It is not easy to go from this House and become a chairman of a nationalised industry and find oneself working with someone whose political views one does not share. I salute the

  1039
  work that Mr. Marsh has done since he has been Chairman of the Railways Board, and I wish him well for the future.
  I believe that we must be very careful about the way we treat the management of nationalised industries. I have never made any secret of what my opinion of this abominable system is, but I do not in any way allow that to influence my views of those who have the really difficult task of management. Not only do they have the normal problems of industry, though they have some of the more obvious and useful disciplines removed from them. At the same time they have to respond to the pressures of politicians and Government Departments to an intolerable extent. They have my greatest sympathy. They have my greatest sympathy, and when the Minister referred to a comprehensive monitoring system, I do not doubt that those words will send a chill through the spines of management. That will almost inevitably add up to a time-wasting exercise from which no one will benefit, but which will generate a great deal of irritation.
  It would be as well if I made one mention of the Bill. I am always agreeably surprised by the way in which certain phrases crop up. Clause 3(1) says:
  "The Secretary of State shall be the competent authority".
  I profoundly hope that he will so prove, but have the gravest doubts, and I hope that those words will not encourage either the Secretary of State or one of the other Ministers to meddle and interfere too much.
  May I conclude by referring to the public? Last year and the year before the commuting public were treated intolerably. They were bullied and pushed around and they had no kind of service. They were not the "bowler-hatted brigade", as they were sometimes described. They were poorer people who could not afford their own transport. They came from a large area around London and day in day out, if they could get a train at all, they had to endure agonies of discomfort. There was hardly a word of apology or consciousness of that. If we are to survive in this country we need certain new attitudes and one of them has to be an absolute determination on the part of
  1040
  the railway staff to serve the customer instead of everyone grabbing what they can for themselves.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Before I call upon the next hon. Member may I remind the House that there are a considerable number of hon. Members who wish to be called in the debate? Short speeches would be helpful.
  5.53 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Snape: In accordance with the traditions of the House, I wish to declare that until my election recently, and since leaving school, I was a railwayman, and I am still a member of the National Union of Railwaymen.
  It was sad to hear the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton)—a man who is held in great respect by Britain's railwaymen because of the work he did as Minister for Transport Industries—propound a speech, this afternoon, which can only be described as what will come to be known in the next election campaign as "Wedgery-Bennery". It was sad to hear what has become so typical these days—an attack on railwaymen in general and drivers in particular.
  We are sometimes apt to forget the growth in passenger and freight transport. It increased between 1950 and 1960 by about 55 per cent., and in the decade from 1960 to 1970 by a further 62 per cent. The increase in freight and passenger traffic masks a big decline in bus and rail travel, because it is virtually all accounted for by an increase in car mileage. The growth in freight traffic in that period has not been quite so rapid. Between 1962 and 1970 it increased by about 30 per cent., all that increase being carried by road, while the railways recorded a significant fall in their carryings—down by about 50 million tons a year since the end of the 1950s. The situation is therefore that road freight traffic has increased by about 52 per cent. while rail traffic has declined by about 20 per cent.
  During that time successive Governments, both Conservative and Labour, decided to concentrate on the motorway building programme and about 1,100 miles were built. We are still being urged from various quarters to construct even more. Surely it is becoming increasingly clear, no matter how many more miles of motorway we build, no matter

  1041
  how much public money—and the Conservatives should remember that it is public money—we pour into the road building programme we shall never satisfy the insatiable demands of the British Road Federation, the motoring organisations and the vast panoply of public relations that people like that can drum up to advance their ideas.
  My right hon. Friend the Minister and right hon. Members opposite referred to the past remit of the railways and its consequences. The right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) dealt in some detail with the effects of the Transport Act 1968. She will not be surprised when I say that the railway trade unions were very much against some aspects of that Act. They warned of its likely consequences. For the sake of the short-term removal of British Railways' debt the Act sought to introduce an integrated transport system within the railways. Freightliners and National Carriers Ltd. were competing in a nonsensical way for the same traffic. Perhaps the lack of road-rail integration in this period was best summarised by Mr. Bosworth, the BRB's Deputy Chairman, who told the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries in its 1973–1974 Session that the 1968 Act provided for something called the Freight Integration Council, but that that body had failed to reach any satisfactory results. Its failure to reach any satisfactory results can be seen on any main road in any big city today.
  We shall all have some difficulty in speaking on the Bill, because it came without warning. It was not preceded by the usual White Paper. I give it a qualified welcome, but I have some questions for my right hon. Friend. Earlier, he mentioned that investment in the railways would be as agreed by the previous administration, which I presume means the £891 million announced in November and reduced by 20 per cent. in December. Does the Bill include that £891 million, less 20 per cent., or are we talking of something else? Is my right hon. Friend satisfied that the railway policy review last year represents the best value for money, in terms of improved services to the public, and will it achieve its declared aim of switching freight from road to rail?
  The Bill refers to £5 million being used to encourage firms to build private sid
  1042
  ings. I am tempted to ask how many minor roads, let alone major roads, £5 million would buy. That sum is totally inadequate for the purpose and should be drastically increased.
  There is little mention in the Bill of capital expenditure for new rolling stock. In the decade 1962–72, expenditure on rolling stock declined, in real terms, from £68 million to £17 million. In carriage sidings and motive power depots throughout the country tonight, the inevitable process of cannibalisation will be taking place so that maintenance staff can turn out enough rolling stock to take to their place of work the commuters to whom the right hon. Member for Yeovil referred. The success of the fitters and maintenance staff will need the cooperation of the train crews—that much-maligned body of men. It will be necessary for both drivers and guards to flout many of the rules laid down by the British Railways Board to get commuters from A to B.
  One of my hon. Friends said that the number of staff employed by British Rail declined from 439,000 in 1962 to 256,000 in 1972. He could have gone back even further, and pointed out that in 1952 the then British Railways employed 601,381 staff, according to Stationery Office statistics. It is estimated that in 1981 there will be 190,000 people employed by British Rail. Can the right hon. Member for Yeovil think of any other industry that could have suffered such a drastic cutback in staff with so little industrial trouble?
  We have heard from both sides of the House about future investment proposals. The Government have rightly announced investment proposals for the National Coal Board—a welcome indication of long-term planning. Readers of the quality Sunday newspapers will be aware that things are somewhat different for the British Railways Board. The 2,000-odd freightliner vehicles in service on British Rail have been the subject of no fewer than 17 different contracts. What sort of financial insanity is it that we continually inflict on the management of nationalised industries?
  There has been little mention this afternoon of the energy crisis and the need to conserve oil supplies. There is little mention in the Bill of the need for further electrification, particularly of the

  1043
  East Coast main line and the many very important cross-country routes. What is the Government's policy on future electrification?
  I turn to the question of pay. The right hon. Member for Yeovil will be aware that the morale of railwaymen is extremely low, and has been for many years. We cannot expect men to go to work at 1 o'clock, 2 o'clock, 3 o'clock and 4 o'clock every morning for the sort of money a junior shorthand typist can earn in any of our large cities. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of the need to pay management its full whack. He and other right hon. and hon Members seem to forget the need to pay the rank and file railwaymen their full whack. All grades on British Rail have an important part to play in maintaining its services.
  When some Conservative Members talk about drivers or other railwaymen holding the country to ransom, do they never consider the advertisements in the London Evening Standard? There was an interesting one only last week, offering the fairly princely rate of £55 a week for Bunny Girls. That is more than twice the salary of a guard on British Rail, nearly twice the salary of an engine driver, and more than the average earnings of both drivers and guards, despite their arduous, long and unsocial hours. I ask Conservative Members to reflect on the values of the society we have created, when they criticise drivers on the Southern Region and elsewhere who are heartily sick of doing an arduous job for virtually peanuts and who withdraw the only commodity they have to withdraw, which is their labour.
  I commend a number of points to the Government for their consideration in framing policy. There are cogent energy resources, land, pollution and safety arguments for developing the railways. Not only the spirit but most of the 1968 Transport Act must be reversed if the railways are to serve the country effectively.
  The railway freight services are in grave need of being revamped in response to public concern about the harmful effects of road freight traffic. The railways will have to be regarded as the principal form of fast land passenger transport for the 1980s. New high-speed routes may well be required.
  1044
  The Department of the Environment needs an overall strategy for planning national transport investment. The Government should lay down specific objectives for British Rail's standard of service and performance. We must have an end to the constant change of political attitude, the constant interference in what the right hon. Member for Yeovil rightly called management's prerogative in the day-to-day operation of railway services.
  What we need is a declaration of faith in a great British industry, and far more investment in not only an essential part of our future economic strategy but what must be the transport system of the immediate future.
  6.8 p.m.
  Mr. Paul Tyler: Like the hon. Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Snape), I wish to refer to my own interest in the rail system. It is a rather different interest from the hon. Gentleman's, in that I am a very small shareholder in the Dart Valley Light Railway Company. In the past few days I have heard, to my great pleasure, that the company made a profit last year and that I shall receive a dividend of about 60p.
  My other special interest in transport at present is evidenced by the state of my feet. I spent some time over the weekend marching round my constituency on a 35-mile sponsored walk along the coast. That has taken its toll. An additional interest is that I come to the House on a bicycle.
  I hope that the House will appreciate, from this, that my interest in the rail industry is not only as an industry but as an important environmental and social service. It is on that part of the implications of the Bill that I wish to concentrate.
  It would be wrong to concentrate too much on the figures presented to us, and those which have been interpreted from the Bill, without appreciating that the Bill also represents a shift in emphasis on the purpose of, and the relationship between, policy and implementation in our rail system. Indeed, hon. Members who have spoken so far have avoided the temptation to do so.
  I was pleased to hear the Minister say that the rail industry was not a normal nationalised industry, that it had wider social and environmental objectives than most nationalised industries. I am sure

  1045
  that hon. Members on both sides of the House would endorse that view. Having said that, I must add that it is important that we do not interpret the word "environmental" too narrowly. I was slightly disturbed to hear the right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) refer to the dismay caused to local residents by the introduction of a new railway, interpreting that as an environmental objection.
  The reason that many of us feel that the rail service is environmentally more desirable, per se, than the road system involves much wider considerations. For example, I believe that it takes 40 acres of farmland to construct a motorway, but to electrify an existing rail track takes up no extra land. When every part of the total acreage of British agricultural land is potentially of enormous importance, especially for import saving, and when our balance of trade must be a major economic consideration, the saving of land is crucial.
  The hon. Member for West Bromwich, East has mentioned that the rail system is more economic than the road system in that it transports more goods and more people, in terms of the use of resources, such as fuel and energy. That must be a consideration that is uppermost in our minds.
  Nevertheless, we cannot escape the fact that the figures that are being presented to us and to the public are considerable. The Guardian on 14th June, in commenting on the introduction of the Bill, did a slightly complicated calculation and came up with the answer that the annual levy on the population of this country—including children—in supporting the rail system was approximately £10·40p a year. The Guardian's leader then said:
  "Does this seem too much to pay to keep a means of transport which almost everyone uses in one way or another or at one time or another?"
  I think that most hon. Members will agree that it is not. Nevertheless, the money must be seen in relation to the way in which the Government and Parliament control the use of it. It is right that most hon. Members who have spoken have concentrated on that point.
  Are we developing a sufficiently efficient system of control and monitoring
  1046
  to ensure that these considerable sums of public money are being used to the maximum possible public good? I think that the Financial Times of 14th June hit the nail very effectively on the head. In its leader, whilst referring to the Minister, it said:
  "He is now faced with the task of devising an entirely new working relationship between the Government and British Rail, which hitherto has been a free-standing public corporation with, in theory at least, a clear set of objectives. Now that the Rail Board is charged with running of what is openly acknowledged to be a 'social service', arrangements will have to be worked out whereby the Treasury and Parliament can be assured of the maintenance of financial discipline and internal morale but which also allow the railways to operate with a reasonable measure of managerial freedom."
  I believe that that will become increasingly important as the years go by. What may seem to be a day-to-day managerial decision may have implications which go right through the transport system and have wider considerations in terms of energy conservation, the allocation of land use policies and our whole social and environmental future.
  Therefore, it is right that we should look back a little on previous attempts to grapple with the difficult problem of the relationship between Government and Parliament and an industry of this sort. It has already been pointed out that the Minister's proposals are a retreat from the policy which was set out in the 1960s. In 1960 the Select Committee, which was chaired by Sir Toby Low, recommended a new policy. That policy eventually came to fruition in the White Paper of 1967 and the Transport Act 1968. That policy was to identify, as we all know, those services which were viable and those services which had to be retained but which were not viable and had to be subsidised.
  A different system has been proposed this afternoon and it is for the Minister to convince us however sympathetic we may be to his objective, that the system has been thought out, including the way in which the public interest will be preserved as the money is spent. There have been examples where what may have seemed at the time to be day-to-day managerial decisions on the part of railwaymen have turned out to be wasted investment—for example, the Carlisle marshalling yard, the Bletchley flyover and, possibly, the Manchester-London

  1047
  electrification. There have been examples where not a penny has been returned. Further, there are on the horizon major decisions that must be taken.
  What will be the form of the Channel Tunnel? Is it to be an extension, of the rail system or an ancillary to the motorway system'? This is not just a rail matter but a matter for the Government, for Parliament and for the country, Similarly, we must consider the new market at Nine Elms. I understand that at present there is no provision for a railhead, despite the fact that the growers of the most beautiful flowers and the best horticultural products which come from my constituency, from the Tamar Valley in Cornwall, would find it most convenient to have their produce travel by rail. It is important, when a decision of that sort is taken, that not just British Rail should be involved in the eventual outcome but also the wider public sector.
  Reference has been made to the item in the Bill which refers to private sidings and the money that is being made available for that purpose. I believe that it is important that the money and its use should be discussed in the open. I understand that European experience of this type of subsidy has not been entirely helpful and does not necessarily prove that it is the right way to proceed.
  I was interested to hear the right hon. Member for Finchley refer to the development of property which is owned by British Rail, as indeed did the former Minister, the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton). The property owned by British Rail is already enormously valuable and potentially of greater value from a financial point of view, but it is in the centre of most of our major cities and it could be a potential disaster from a social and environmental point of view if it were sold off to the highest bidder. It would be scandalous if an industry such as the rail industry were to have its property put up for sale for private development. Some of the prime sites in the centres of our cities might be appropriate for office use—perhaps but not necessarily some of the Central London stations—but some of the property further out in London, such as large marshalling yards, could be used for housing. Some of the
  1048
  land could be used for housing railway workers and transport workers generally.
  The Chairman of London Transport took an important initiative last year when he drew attention to the land that was held in stock by London Transport. I hope that British Rail will also think about the property that it holds and that it will not be only the financial considerations of British Rail that will come top of the priority list. The wider interests of the public must also be considered.
  In Clause 9 there is a suggestion that the chairmen of consultative committees should be paid more money. I believe that more money should be paid to those who do more work. I find it disappointing that there is not a proposal in the Bill to extend the rôle of such committees so that they could consider the fare structure of the railway system. There is a considerable public interest to be considered and we should ensure that that interest is helped through the Bill.
  It will be apparent from my comments that, while I accept, as I am sure my right hon. and hon. Friends do, the overall objectives of the Bill, I have some misgivings about the readiness of Government and Parliament to undertake a new monitoring and controlling rôle. I believe that there may be a case for a Select Committee on Transport to look at these wider interests. If that is not practical, perhaps there could be a special standing and continuing sub-committee of the Select Committee on Expenditure to consider the subject.
  Mr. Onslow: Would the hon. Gentleman consider the possibility of the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries filling the bill?
  Mr. Tyler: I have considered it. With my limited experience, I have not had the pleasure of being a member of that Committee. However, I think that if we accept that the railways are a peculiar nationalised industry needing special treatment, as the Minister said, the best way to deal with the wider considerations which the railways may have for the whole of environmental and social policy may not be in tandem with the other nationalised industries. I would prefer the matter to be the subject of a special Select Committee, if possible, dealing with the

  1049
  relationships and comparisons of the railways to all other forms of transport. This would be preferable to treating the railways as just another nationalised industry, for they have little kinship with the other nationalised industries.
  I welcome the Bill, and I hope that in Committee we shall have further evidence of new thinking by the Government about the way in which control of these vast sums of money is to be monitored by the Government and the House. I believe that we have a great opportunity to set the rail system in a new direction, with a new sense of purpose. I believe that it would be totally wrong if we simply told the engine driver to drive like hell in whatever direction he chose to go.
  6.22 p.m.
  Mr. Leslie Huckfield: I am a member of the Transport and General Workers' Union, but I speak today in my capacity of undertaking parliamentary liaison for the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen.
  I welcome the Bill. I think that my right hon. Friend is to be congratulated, in particular, in fending off the pruning knives of the Treasury. He has preserved an expenditure which had to be projected forward over the years. Bearing in mind that we are living in an atmosphere of severe public expenditure cuts elsewhere, for him to have preserved this amount of the public spending programme in his part of the Department of the Environment over the next five years is quite an achievement.
  I welcomed the Transport Act 1968. I was a member of the Standing Committee which considered it upstairs. I welcomed it because I thought that the procedure whereby there were to be specific grants for certain social services meant that we were taking decisions on the size of the railway system out of the hands of railway management and putting them into the hands—I hoped—of this House. I hope that in getting rid of the specific grants now we are not going to transfer back to railway management decisions on the size of the railway system. Decisions on the future size of the railway network should be a matter at least for the Minister and, more appropriately, for this House.
  1050
  The Bill is particularly necessary because it makes provision for the deficit financing which is necessary. But I think we have to go further still. As other hon. Members have pointed out, there is urgent necessity to hear something from my right hon. Friend, not only about deficit financing and subsidies for loss-making services, but also about the capital investment programme. A Bill like this does not mean much unless we are able to compare it with a statement on capital investment at the same time.
  Reference has also been made to Clause I and the fact that the capital debt of the board has been once more written down. Perhaps this capital debt and the need to pay such high amounts of interest on it, followed by the need to write down the debt, might not have recurred so early had it not been that, so often, when the board wished to engage in more profitable activities, such as hotels, the development of railway land, the shipping services and the many other ancillary activities which it would have been legal for it to have engaged in under the 1968 Act, it was refused permission, especially by the Conservative Government. No wonder the board found difficulty in meeting interest payments when every time it came to the Conservative Government asking to be allowed to extend its activities in order to help pay the interest charges it was turned down.
  The main emphasis of the comments, particularly of hon. Members opposite, centres on the proposal to transfer subsidies from a specific social service basis to a general deficit basis. Some hon. Members seem to think that it is all to do with the Common Market. I should be a bit worried if a significant improvement in railway financing like this were all to do with the EEC. It goes a little wider than that.
  My right hon. Friend made a statement about public and parliamentary accountability. We are to go from something like £81 million-a-year specific services grants to a general deficit grant of about £300 million a year, which means £1,500 million over the next five years. If we are to do this, what incentive is there to the board to maintain specific services? In many cases, Cooper Brothers' formulae, particularly the one which formed the basis of an agreement between the board and passenger transport executives, were not only keeping tabs on how

  1051
  much was being spent on a particular service but were also an incentive to the board to maintain particular services. In going over to a more general deficit financing principle, are we losing some of the specific checks and controls we had on specific services?
  I think that my right hon. Friend is doing something much more important than going from a specific grant procedure to a general deficit procedure. He is adopting a procedure whereby the bulk of the track and signalling costs of the system will be paid for by the Government. I think that my right hon. Friend is hiding his light under a bushel on the matter. He need not be afraid of it. For a very long time, railwaymen have argued that if the road user has his track and signalling costs paid, so should the railway user have his paid. The combination of Clauses 1 and 3, transferring track and signalling costs from capital account to revenue account, means that the bulk of rail track and signalling costs will in future be paid for by the Government.
  My right hon. Friend has nothing to hide in taking that decision. Railwaymen should be grateful to him. I do not think that my right hon. Friend can tell us that every single detail of all that comes under EEC Regulations 1191 and 1192, but whether the switch does or does not come under those two regulations the House should be grateful to him for what he has done. In accepting that my right hon. Friend is transferring the bulk of the track and signalling costs from the Board to the Government—I hope that my right hon. Friend will say so openly—we should accept that what we are doing is giving a general subsidy to the majority of railway operations. The British Road Federation has calculated that every single journey will be subsidised to the tune of £1·75. I do not necessarily accept this figure, but the general nature of the grant which the Minister is giving the railways is open to such interpretation.
  There is another point that the Minister must have noticed. It is that if the majority of track and signalling costs are to be met out of this general passenger service grant of £300 million, freight charging ought now to be on the basis of marginal cost pricing. If this means that the railways ought now to be able
  1052
  to charge some lower price for their freight I think that they will need more encouragement from the Minister than simply his writing to 100 firms. One of the most regrettable things about the last investment submission made by the Chairman of the British Railways Board to the last Government was the fact that out of the £1,800 million in the submission only £44 million, or 2 per cent. of the total submission, was for freight investment.
  We have already heard about the cannibalisation that takes place every night to keep the railway services going. Any railwayman knows that if we had any significant increase in freight at the moment the railways could not carry it because the freight-carrying capacity is not there. There is a shortage of wagons in certain areas, and a shortage of marshalling facilities in other places. If the Minister intends there to be any kind of observable shift of freight from road to rail there will have to be a lot more freight investment than was envisaged in the last investment submission by British Railways.
  I would have liked to hear—I hope we shall hear it in the next investment submission—something more about new railway wagons. Only about a half of the 250,000 wagons operating at the moment are vacuum-braked. The rest of them certainly do not even look as if they could be. I hope that in the statement we are to get from the Minister we shall hear something more about electrification. We ought to know something about this in future, particularly in view of the favourable cost-escalation comparisons taking the Crewe-Glasgow electrification project as an example.
  There certainly are not many major transport investment projects which, over a period of five years, can record and brag about a cost escalation of only 35 per cent. That cannot apply to Concorde. I hope it will not apply to Maplin. That is the record, so far, of the British Railways Board on electrification.
  I welcome the provision which my right hon. Friend has made for granting £5 million towards the construction of private sidings. I only hope he will do a little more than write to 100 firms. I hope he will do a little more than has been promised so far to bring about that shift from road to rail.
  Mr. Mulley: Perhaps I may clarify this point. The purpose of the letter—it has been well received—was to put the firms in close touch with British Railways so that together they could go through the firms' operations with a view to getting the firms to give a greater proportion of its traffic to rail. It was not just a case of my writing a letter. It is being followed up by the board and the National Freight Corporation.
  Mr. Huckfield: I do not doubt my right hon. Friend's sincerity, but we have to keep a watchful eye on the whole process, so that it does not become just another public relations exercise.
  Mr. Ronald Atkins: My hon. Friend ought to acknowledge the fact that it was my right hon. Friend who, when he was last in Government, authorised—in the teeth of opposition—the electrification of the line to Scotland which has been so justly praised.
  Mr. Huckfield: I have spoken of my right hon. Friend's hiding his light under a bushel in respect of what he has done with track and signalling costs. He is also to be congratulated upon taking the original electrification decision. I hope that he will follow through what he has begun in writing to these 100 firms.
  It is the investment in railway freight capacity which is the determining factor. In the submission which the Chairman of the British Railways Board made to the previous Government he said that he did not envisage that the railways would be carrying any more freight in 1981 than they are carrying now. When I asked the former Minister for Transport Industries how much he envisaged the railways carrying in 1981, as against what they are carrying today, the right hon. Gentleman said that he thought they would be carrying about the same as now. Since I hope that there will be some growth in the economy between now and 1981, that seems a pretty dismal forecast both by the chairman of the board and the right hon. Gentleman.
  I have said that I act in a parliamentary liaison capacity for ASLEF. I bear in mind what my right hon. Friend has said about the need to keep in touch with the unions. I cannot help feeling—if I may deliver this mild rebuke—that my right hon. Friend has not got off to a
  1054
  very good start with this Bill. It does not do the Minister much good, and it does not get the best response to the Bill, when my right hon. Friend writes to the unions concerned, as he certainly wrote to ASLEF, on the same day as the Bill came out.
  I would have thought it would have been better for the Minister to have got together with the unions concerned, to have discussed the proposals in the Bill before its publication and before my right hon. Friend held his Press conference. It is not the best way for the General Secretary of ASLEF to be told about this by his wife, who happened to have heard it on the car radio. This is not the best way of announcing to General Secretaries the details of any Bill.
  I, too, support the claim of the railwaymen. It is not just a case of railwaymen working shifts; it is usually a case of their working a different shift every day. The average railwayman would be happy if he knew what shift he would be working in three weeks' time. Often it is a matter of starting at I am one day and 1 pm the following day—and it might be 6 am the day after that. With the conditions that prevail on Southern Region in particular, a railwayman may be responsible for hundreds of lives. Such hours are not conducive to good bodily functions like sleeping and eating regular meals. They play havoc with family and social life and cause all kinds of unsocial pressures. Such is the job of the railwayman. Such is the job which railwaymen have always borne with a great deal of pride, because they, above all, believe in the railway system.
  I know that the Minister recognises that he must consult everyone involved, including the railway unions. He does not inspire much confidence among the general public, however, if he does not appoint for example, to transport users' consultative committees, the kind of people who understand railway problems. I speak as one who frequently attended meetings of such committees. I have often thought that one of the best things that could happen, particularly under a Labour Government, would be for there to be a complete review of the method of appointment and a condition laid down about the necessity of appointing chairman of such committees who actually

  1055
  used the railways occasionally. This has net been the case in the past.
  I welcome the Bill. The Minister has made some fundamental innovations, such as the decision relating to track and signalling costs. I recognise that this represents a significant declaration of faith in the railway system. What the House, the country and the railwaymen are waiting for above all is information showing how much money the Government are prepared to invest in the railways' capital programme.
  6.40 pm
  Mr. Cranley Onslow: When the Minister introduced the Bill he held out the hope that it would provide either the Government or the House—I am not absolutely clear which he meant—with more control over expenditure. He went on to say, when pressed by me, that he foresaw that the new procedure would give hon. Members more opportunity for questions. He added—and this slightly took away my rapture—that the Government did not intend to derogate the powers of management. I do not wish the Government to derogate the powers of management, but I should like to know whether the right hon. Gentleman agrees with my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) that in future there will be endless scope for parliamentary Questions on matters to do with the railways. My right hon. Friend is perhaps being optimistic if she thinks that that will be the position—or perhaps pessimistic, as it seems to be what she does not want.
  In any case, it is a matter of some reproach to the House that it is 13 years since the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries last examined British Railways. The hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Tyler) reminded us of this, although I think he must himself have had to be reminded of it. There is now a strong case for a direction to the Select Committee, in the light of this Bill, to look into the way in which the House should in future keep itself informed about what goes on on the railways. We cannot tolerate the present vacuum indefinitely.
  The House will be aware that several hon. Members, amongst whom I number myself, represent commuter constituencies, in which the smooth running of the
  1056
  trains is essential to the daily work of many, if not all, of those who live there. Because I represent a commuter constituency—not so much because I am myself a commuter—I put on the Order Paper an amendment, to which some of my hon. Friends who represent commuter constituencies and a stray Scottish Nationalist have seen fit to add their names. For that I was roundly condemned as mischievous by the hon. Member for Leicester, East (Mr. Bradley).
  I do not want to labour the sentiments which have been so powerfully expressed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and my right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton), but before the hon. Member for Leicester. East starts asking me what I know about the railways, may I remind him that if he spent a little more time on commuter trains he would know how my constituents feel. In particular, if he had to take the trouble to find a way to get to work in the City without going through that infernal "drain" every morning—[Interruption.] If the hon. Gentleman says that he commutes to the House every day, he is either extraordinarily fortunate or extremely good-tempered.
  Mr. Bradley: I must correct the hon. Gentleman. I firmly believe that the best thing in London is the next train to Kettering, where I live. I commute every day and I understand the anguish that is felt by passengers. All I want the hon. Gentleman to do is to appreciate that some of us are doing our best within the industry to get the solution which he requires, and to give us the credit for it.
  Mr. Onslow: I am not denying credit, though I have a suspicion that the hon. Gentleman commutes to and from Kettering without paying, which makes a bit of difference between his position and the love-hate attitude of the average commuter towards the railways.
  We need to appreciate that those who do commute to work in the City or elsewhere are not all bowler-hatted stockbrokers. A great many young school leavers taking their first jobs have to commute to London. They can ill afford the fares at the best of times, and their lives were made insufferably bloody by the action which occurred last winter. The

  1057
  hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Huck-field) informed us that he was the parliamentary liaison officer for ASLEF. I do not know whether that is an honorary post. He might have had the grace on this occasion to express some tiny word of regret for the sufferings which the action of ASLEF inflicted upon a vast number of rail users.
  Mr. Leslie Huckfield: Will the hon. Gentleman recognise that it does no good in this cynical and bitter way to rake over the embers time and again? He does not gain himself many friends on the back half of the train—he said that he did not use trains—and he will not win himself many friends on the front end of the train. Will he accept that not many unions would have tolerated ever since 1972 an unresolved promise by management? Will he also bear in mind that from 1955 until 1972 ASLEF took no official action?
  Mr. Onslow: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman will win himself any new friends anywhere on the platform. It is on the platform that opinions are formed, not so much on the trains, which, if they come, tend to be rather too crowded to enable people to form considered opinions. But if he dislikes raking the embers, I must remind him that in the Sunday Telegraph of 16th June Mr. Ray Buckton is once again reported as saying:
  "I am having the utmost difficulty in holding my members back. They feel aggrieved at the long wait they are having for what they regard as a just demand."
  That is the point which the hon. Member for Nuneaton is putting and, again, he does not express a single work of contrition—
  Mr. Leslie Huckfield: I would not apologise to you, would I?
  Mr. Onslow:—for the sufferings which were inflicted by ASLEF on a very large number of people in and around Greater London. I am sure that those people will take appropriate note of his attitude and will be interested to note how he discharges his function as parliamentary liaison officer to that union.
  To get on to a much more important point than the episodes which caused a great deal of concern last winter, I believe there is an urgent need in the debates which the nation is now conducting about matters of great importance to get away
  1058
  from the trail of the red herring of State participation in private industry which the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn) keeps so assiduously dragging across our paths. The great problem of today is public control over nationalised industry, and very large sums of money are involved, of which the Bill is an example.
  I do not necessarily complain about that, except that I do not believe that it is to the House that British Railways should be looking for the finance they need for all their fringe activities.
  But it is essential that the public should get value for public money. In this case that depends on the smooth working of the railways, and that in turn depends on good industrial relations.
  The Minister said that he hoped that there would be a more harmonious relationship in future. The Chairman of the British Railways Board in an interview which is reported in British Travel News in Spring 1974 expressed a similar sentiment in these words:
  "I think now they have been given a long term future, and when we get wage rates up to a reasonable level, there will obviously be a good impact on employee relations."
  The hon. Member for Leicester, East said much the same. But, in the light of the experience which we have not yet had time to forget, hopes are not enough. So I should like to press the Minister further on how he sees this desirable state of affairs coming about.
  In a nationalised industry the employee cannot participate in share ownership—I hope that the right hon. Gentleman agrees with me on that—especially in a non-profit-making activity such as British Railways. I agree that it is a good thing finally to face the situation that it is unrealistic to expect British Railways to make a profit, and I agree with what Mr. Marsh said in the same interview:
  "it is appreciated that the railway is not, and cannot be, a commercially viable business in conventional terms".
  When considering the deficits which have been chalked up in the past, I am minded to suggest that we should treat the money that goes into running the nationalised railway rather as the Chinese treat the money they take in their packets when they go gambling. If they have anything at all in their packets at the

  1059
  end of the day, they regard that as a most unexpected profit. They are prepared to see the rest of it go. If we adopt a similar approach and combine with it the cutting out of the so-called commercial fringe activities of which the hon. Member for Nuneaton seems to think so highly—although if he looks more closely at the accounts I think he will take a different view—we are getting closer to the real problem. There are plenty of activities which could well be carried out on a subcontracting basis with minimum capital or management involvement on the part of British Railways, which have plenty of calls on their capital and management resources which are infinitely more important in the public context. I would rather see every possible effort devoted by British Rail to bringing in the advanced passenger train as soon as possible rather than frittering away scarce money and management on such activities as hotels, hovercraft and things of that nature.
  It is impossible in a nationalised industry for the work force to participate in management in the sense which we are led to believe may be possible in the private sector. I do not think the Minister holds the view—and if he does perhaps he will say so now—that it would be desirable to have 50 per cent. trade union participation on the Railways Board. It is only conceivable that there should be participation between management and staff in areas such as manpower planning, career structure and similar activities. These matters are not crucial and do not determine the financial or investment decisions which are fundamental to the enterprise as a whole. The railways have the purpose of serving the public, and on that there is no room for compromise. It may be difficult to find the ideal answer, though I have great sympathy with the comments of my right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil about past practice. I like to believe that we could evolve some system of management of the nationalised industries which involved the Government saying to each of the industries, for example, "Tell us what you could do if we allowed you to have £500 million in the coming year and in the following two years, and what you could do if we offered you £750 million." They could get the nationalised industries
  1060
  to present a number of options which were carefully costed, one of which the Government could accept unconditionally as far as any Government can, and then leave matters to the management of the industry concerned to get on with its remit within its financial bounds without any of the systematic monitoring, or nitpicking, or day-to-day control, or interference of the kind which drives managements of nationalised industries into a state of unconcealed frenzy.
  It is also essential—and the users want this most of all—that there should be between the management of the railways and the men and women who work on them some agreement or bargain which will stick. For a start, I hope some responsible person—and perhaps it could be Mr. Marsh—will consider what should be done about the extraordinarily antiquated set of rules which appear to govern the activities of train drivers. They sometimes seem to have been drawn up by Will Hay himself, and, indeed, I am surprised that we have not yet heard of a case of a driver refusing to take out a train because he had not been given a nightshirt and a candle in case he had to sleep in the cab. Some of the stipulations in those rules are totally unrealistic. They belong to bygone days and by now should have been removed from the rule book. Rules which are sensible should be clearly observed the whole time and should not be the cause of the kind of industrial action with which we have grown so boringly familiar.
  I wish to emphasise the point that we must have an agreement in the industry that will last. That is the real test of the situation, and it is an assurance for which we are entitled to ask. Part of the answer, in this industry as in others, must come from the creation of some kind of premium for good service to the public. Very often in the nationalised industries long service is badly rewarded for reasons which are historical but not creditable.
  In the case of the Post Office I rejoice to see that we have at last got away from the situation where the Imperial Service Medal used to he the standard reward for 25 years' faithful service. I do not know whether a colour television set is an adequate alternative, but I believe that at the end of a man's service he

  1061
  should have something to look forward to as a result of his dedicated efforts. At the end of the day I am certain the public will not mind paying a reasonable price. On this occasion perhaps we shall reluctantly see the price paid once more in the absence of any kind of firm assurance of a real bargain. It is in the long run essential that the nationalised industries, which exist to serve the public, should do just that. It is not enough for the Government or for union leaders, and certainly not for this House, to rely on nothing more than hope.
  6.56 p.m.
  Mr. Leslie Spriggs: I agree with the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) that it is easier to talk than to do. He has had the experience on being on both sides of the fence. He knows what it is like to be a Minister of Transport Industries and also a back bencher, from which position we heard him today.
  I welcome the Bill with certain reservations, and I hope that when I have expressed them in the form of one or two questions I shall be given a ministerial reply at the end of the debate.
  The Minister said that the main purpose of the Bill was to supplant the inadequate system of support under the 1968 Transport Act by a comprehensive new grant in respect of the whole network of railway passenger services. He said that this would be an on-going policy, although in order to give Parliament opportunities to review its operation a limit of £900 million, extendable to £1,500 million, is to be placed on the amount which may be paid. Much of the cost of the track as well as of passenger services will be eligible for grant. Freight will also be assisted by the new powers to pay up to £5 million annually for the construction of private sidings and associated facilities. Some of my hon. Friends have already referred to private sidings and the £5 million subsidy which the Minister is providing to encourage private industry to install such sidings and also to persuade them to transfer their traffic from road to rail. However, I can hardly see £5 million being enough to encourage many firms to build private sidings. It is an inadequate sum. I shall refer to this matter again when I put my questions to the Minister.
  1062
  We are told that the Bill also makes provision for removing from the British Railways Board the financial burden of its inherited obligations on pensions. I welcome this. It is understood that the board cannot finance all its pension obligations from revenue. The Minister suggested that a meeting might be called to explain to the unions the technical and complex nature of these pension provisions. He said that, although the Bill provided for a substantial increase in borrowing powers of the board and wrote down its capital debt from £439 million to £250 million by the end of the year, it did not deal with investment levels since these are a matter not for legislation but for settlement in the annual reviews made of public expenditure.
  When the Bill appeared it gave little warning of what the Minister or the Government proposed. I regret this because many of us expected a White Paper prior to the publication of the Bill. I assure my right hon. Friend that when I heard about this Bill I was taken completely by surprise.
  Mr. Mulley: I am sure that my hon. Friend appreciates the stage that we have reached in the parliamentary timetable before the Summer Recess. I could well have produced a White Paper, and we could have debated it, but, because of the enormous figures involved and the need to rectify the omission whereby the railways had not got proper support, I wanted this Bill to become law. We could not have had both the White Paper and the completion of all the Bill's stages this side of the Summer Recess.
  Mr. Spriggs: I am obliged to my right hon. Friend for that explanation, which, of course, I accept fully.
  The situation on pensions is not clear. Estimates of the cost range from £660 million to £1,080 million. But my right hon. Friend has promised to explain this matter separately, and it is probably in our interests that the Bill seems to have been left deliberately vague on this aspect.
  I am sure all my colleagues welcome the special grants for the construction of private sidings and associated facilities. We recognise these as a worthwhile inducement to the hundred or so large firms which my right hon. Friend is approaching in order to get them to send more goods by rail.

  1063
  It is felt that the Bill does little more than keep the rail system ticking over on its present basis. Of very real importance is the investment of British Railways, so what of the £891 million promised for modernisation by the last administration? Where is the capital investment needed for new electrification, for instance? Much of this Bill is to bring in uniformity of treatment of railways by countries in the Common Market. Various estimates in the Press suggest huge sums of new money for the railways, but, when the situation is examined, this is found not to be so.
  Many of the estimates include the pension liabilities, and there does not appear to be a great deal of additional money for investment or any acceptance of a wider rôle for the railways.
  What of the energy, material resources, land, pollution, environmental and safety aspects of the matter? I wish to put several questions to my right hon. Friend. I hope that he will take note of them, because they require answering.
  First, does the Bill include the £891 million of investment announced by the previous administration?
  Second, are the Government satisfied that the railway policy review of last year represents the best value for money in terms of improved service to the public and of switching freight from road to rail.
  Third, the Bill makes provision for £500 million to encourage firms to build private sidings. Is that enough to bring about a significant change? There is a desperate need for new wagons, locomotives and staff. The job has to be made more attractive and the future secure. The pay has to be right, or services cannot be maintained.
  Fourth, the investment proposals of the National Coal Board are a welcome indication of long-term planning, namely, on a 10-year basis. This Bill plans for five years. What happens after that? A long-term investment plan is essential.
  Fifth, as part of the nation's need to preserve oil supplies, coal output is to be increased. We see electrified railways which are more efficient and more attractive to passengers as being the means by which railways can contribute towards saving oil. What is the Government's
  1064
  policy on a massive electrification programme?
  Sixth, under the previous Government's proposals there was the possibility that one or two lines would be closed. Is it the intention that the network should now be maintained in its entirety?
  Seventh, my union, the National Union of Railwaymen, supports and welcomes the decision to build the Channel Tunnel and the new rail link with London. It sees the project as providing a tremendous boost to the railways by means of greatly increased passenger carryings and freight handling. My union has called upon the Government to provide incentives to industry to feed through-traffic into the Continental system by placing freight on the railways at regional centres. There is a real need for the Government to make it clear through legislation that, from this country's point of view, the primary function of the tunnel will be to provide a through rail service. On that basis, the facilities at Cheriton should be restricted.
  I want finally to refer to the problems confronting the Railways Board. I do not speak for the board directly, of course. These are my own opinions. After reading the Bill carefully it seems to me that the Railways Board possibly will find that the five-year programme envisaged in the Bill is much too restrictive for the successful administration and future planning of our railway industry. I ask my right hon. Friend to study the difficulties and problems which a five-year programme creates for the board and to look at the 10-year investment programme of the coal industry with a view to providing a 10-year investment policy for British Railways. Given this kind of financial investment, I feel sure that the Railways Board, the trade unions and the public as a whole will benefit from all aspects, including those of the environment and the quality of life.
  7.8 p.m.
  Sir Bernard Braine: I am sure that the hon. Member for St. Helens (Mr. Spriggs) will not mind if I do not take up his argument, other than to say that I am sure that the House will listen with great interest to the answers which the Government give to the very pertinent questions that he has just put.

  1065
  In normal circumstances, I should welcome the Bill in principle. Manifestly, it is in the national interest for us to have a railway system which not only is run efficiently and with a proper sense of obligation to its customers but is used to the maximum. Motoring has long ceased to be the pleasure that it used to be, certainly in the South-East. We are slowly choking ourselves to death on the roads, and it should now be clear to the simplest intelligence that it is a wasteful, if not a criminal, misuse of resources to go on encouraging more motor traffic and the pollution, congestion and delays that this causes when we have at hand an under-used railway system which, given the right conditions, would ensure swift, comfortable and relatively pollution-free transport.
  It is difficult to understand why thousands of people in my part of the country daily take to the roads and, by so doing, add half an hour or more to what used to be the time of the rail journey. Why do they do it? It can only be because they have lost faith in the railways—I am not saying whether this is justified—and prefer the certainty of getting from A to B in a vehicle which they can command. Surely that is bad. The question is, therefore, whether the Bill will do anything to bring about the radical shift back to rail that is needed.
  I entirely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow) that there is a need for much closer scrutiny of railways and transport policy in general in the future than in the past. In return for this new financial support that we are being asked to give to the railways, surely we are entitled to ask that we are provided with a vastly improved service and that a great deal more regard is given to the travelling public than has been manifest in recent years. Are we to get an assurance from the Minister that there will be a new deal not only for the railways but for the people that they exist to serve?
  Frankly, I am not impressed by the way that the railways are being managed. I refer particularly to the lines serving my area. Yesterday fares were increased by an average of 12½ per cent. without any differentials to take account of local conditions. Such increases are not marginal in character. For many of my constituents, who use the two commuter
  1066
  lines to London and have absolutely no alternative means of getting to work, the increase is about £20 a year from Benfleet or £22 from one of the two Southend stations. Since there is little local employment, the effect on school leavers and young workers may be catastrophic. I calculate that for all who pay no income tax, about half of the recent threshold increase is swallowed up immediately by the higher fares authorised yesterday and about 65 per cent. for those who pay tax.
  What adds insult to injury is that we are being asked to pay more for a manifestly deteriorating service. I make no mention of the distress and hardship that was caused to thousands of my constituents last year by selfish industrial action which did grave damage to the interests of the railway industry. I concede at once to hon. Gentlemen who have some connection with the railways that the vast majority of railwaymen condemned that action. I think that they deeply regret any action which must drive people away from the railways or which damages their image. For that reason I do not wish to indulge in any criticism of what happened. Let us hope that that is a thing of the past and that the new deal envisaged in the Bill will help to create a new atmosphere in which—
  Mr. Leslie Huckfield: Will the hon Gentleman give way?
  Sir Bernard Braine: The hon. Gentleman might permit me to finish. We all know that he represents a sectional interest in this House. We should draw a veil over what happened. My hope is that the Bill will represent a new deal for those who work on the railways as well as for those who use them.
  Mr. Mulley: The hon. Gentleman should not get too excited about a new deal. The major part of the money, the investment that is coming along, should and will improve the service over a period. The large sums in Clause 3 are to keep the existing railway service going. The Bill does not envisage the wave of a magic wand to put all these problems right.
  Sir Bernard Braine: I did not say that. I hope that there will be some attempt by the management of the railways to improve the existing service. I have in mind particularly the unreliable

  1067
  timekeeping, the sudden cancellations, and the introduction of short trains—I am speaking of the commuter lines to Southend—forcing hundreds of passengers who have spent a day working hard in London to stand for the time of their journey home. I understand that nine complete trains were immobilised last week at Ilford waiting for relatively minor repairs. Promises to provide fast off-peak services have been made in the past but have been broken. My constituents may be forgiven for thinking that they are regarded by British Railways as there for the milking but otherwise of no account.
  Why is this? I suggest that it is partly because huge nationalised concerns are too remote from the people they serve. For example, we find when we make complaints at Liverpool Street that the local management understands the problem and wants to do something about it, but is powerless to do anything because it is answerable to remote figures in York.
  There is too a complete lack of flexibility in the charges structure. The aim surely should be to retain existing passenger traffic and to attract traffic back from the roads. This should be the major aim of any fares structure.
  Why cannot we have a restoration of the old workman's ticket, which was very popular in its day? It led to large numbers of people journeying before a certain hour in the morning, making better use of rolling stock.
  Why cannot we have differentials designed to encourage people to travel regularly at off-peak periods? I refer not only to shoppers but to workers. It would be of positive advantage if we could persuade employers to stagger working hours. I am advised that the local management in my area would like to experiment along these lines, but that it is prevented from doing so by the present rigid fares structure laid down by Eastern Region headquarters at York. I suggest that freedom to experiment with fares designed to maximise traffic is needed.
  Conditions in the South-East are totally different from conditions elsewhere. Conditions in South-East Essex in particular are different from conditions on any other commuter line. We have the highest
  1068
  concentration of commuter traffic and some of the most heavily used commuter stations in the country. People are completely dependent on those lines. Of course, those lines make a profit. I am not advancing that argument. It is in the nature of public transport that some lines make a profit and others make a loss. But British Railways management know that they have our commuters where they want them. Because of that they do not seem willing or capable of meeting our particular conditions. I suggest that there should be more flexibility for local management to meet that kind of situation.
  Clause 3 gives the Secretary of State power to make certain general directions, and Clause 4 gives him power to approve capital expenditure of a substantial amount. However, I see no provision under which he can require British Railways management to adopt a more flexible charging policy and a more commercial approach to the vital task of keeping and attracting passenger traffic to the railways.
  Why is that? I hope the Minister will explain why this rigidity still obtains. Is it impossible to give each area served by British Railways a fares structure related to its special circumstances, designed to get back the traffic that it has lost to the roads, and to attract new traffic? Is it impossible to provide special rates for the young traveller up to the age of, say, 25, or for pensioners who are continuing to work? As an additional means of helping the railways, have the Government considered giving income tax relief for those in between those two categories who have been using their cars to get to work?
  Mr. Spriggs: The hon. Gentleman is making some very good suggestions. Is he aware that on Merseyside, for example, there is a scheme which enables two housewives to travel to London for shopping for the price of one ticket?
  Sir Bernard Braine: The hon. Gentleman's area is fortunate. There are differential schemes operating as between regions, but what I am arguing for is flexibility within a region. I am arguing that some regard should be pa id to the peculiar circumstances of an area such as that which I represent.

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  I promised to be brief, and I come to my conclusion. I hesitate to support a further heavy injection of taxpayers' money into a nationalised industry which up to now has shown such little imagination and commercial judgment. My vote on the Bill will be determined by the answers which the Minister gives to the practical suggestions that have been made tonight. My attitude to this measure will depend upon the extent to which the Minister uses his considerable influence commercially minded and, for the first time, to have regard for the customer, to persuade British Railways to become I hope he responds.
  7.21 p.m.
  Mr. Ronald Atkins: I do not want to follow at length the arguments advanced by the hon. Member for Essex, South-East (Sir Bernard Braine) but I wish to refer briefly to commuter lines. This subject has been referred to by a number of hon. Members, but they ignore one reason for the bad service, and that is low wages. Very often when there is a shortage of trains it is due to a shortage of staff. The suggestion put forward by the hon. Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow), that there should be service awards after a number of years' employment—I think he said 25—is a good one, but on their present wages railwaymen will not last that long and something must be done, especially in the London area, to improve wages so that services can be run properly.
  Hon. Members may have heard of the problem over freight carriage in the Dagenham district. Because of a lack of staff, the railways cannot carry the freight which they would otherwise be able to do. If the railways do employ staff, or transfer them into the area from other regions, sooner or later those men become employed by Fords at higher wages. When people talk about industrial relations they should realise that bad relations are often the result of bad wages, but in the long run more disturbances arise because of shortages of staff than from industrial disputes.
  British Railways have been expected to balance their books in the narrow way suggested by the Beeching Report. For many years we have suffered from the effects of that report. Although it was at one time acclaimed by the Press and the majority of Members, I think that
  1070
  there are now few people who hold to their original opinion, and the Bill is the last nail in the coffin of the Beeching Report.
  I warmly welcome the Bill because it provides a new system of financial support for British Railways and implies a revolutionary change of attitude in this country. British Railways have been the favourite Aunt Sally of the Opposition parties, and they have suffered accordingly. At one time the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) very definitely regarded British Railways as an Aunt Sally—old-fashioned, backward, mean and nasty—and not only was he waiting for her to die but he tried to hurry her death.
  British Railways no longer have the Aunt Sally image, but are more like Aunt Mame, and I welcomed the U-turn taken by the right hon. Gentleman, especially in his 1973 White Paper on urban transport. The right hon. Gentleman expressed his appreciation of Mr. Richard Marsh, and I am not greatly surprised, because, although the right hon. Gentleman and Mr. Richard Marsh hold different views about the ownership of British Railways, their ideas about running the railways are not all that different. I am glad that my right hon. Friend the Minister introduced a certain amount of enlightenment into the running of British Railways, in that he supported the electrification of the line to Scotland even though, in the strict bookkeeping terms of Beeching, it was doubtful whether that would result in a profit.
  It is interesting to note that one reason for the change of attitude is our membership of the Common Market. Countries outside the United Kingdom hold a different view from ours about their railways, whether they are nationalised or in private hands, though most of them are nationalised. Railways in those countries have not been a political shuttlecock to be knocked around in political encounters between the parties at election times and in between. The attitude to the railways has been different from ours in Europe, in the USSR, in Japan and even in the USA in recent years. Those countries have long recognised the need for special aid to the railways to enable them to provide a social service and compete successfully with road freight.

  1071
  Why is this special help needed for the railways? I think that we should examine that issue because it has not so far been considered. One hon. Member spoke about the need for a special inquiry, or a Select Committee, and there is something to be said for that, because there is so much argument about the real costs of road transport vis-à-vis the railways.
  Why are the railways a special case? Why are they a special—or "peculiar", as one hon. Gentleman said—nationalised industry? It is not because the railways are less efficient. Their fuel efficiency is four times greater than that on the road. In addition, any kind of fuel can be used. The railways are not limited to only one kind of fuel. The railways' use of manpower is more efficient per unit carried. Their use of land is much more efficient, and the cost to the environment is far less.
  The track is already laid, but it is not used to capacity. The right hon. Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) spoke about extra track being laid, and she mentioned the unusual case of the Channel Tunnel. The Minister proposes to use the existing track to capacity, and that is sensible in two ways: first, because it will limit capital costs secondly, because railways pay only when they are run to capacity.
  With every improvement in technology British Railways become more acceptable from an environmental point of view. They are quieter, because of the continuous welded line. They are cleaner with the use of electricity, and they are faster than road services. Every advance on the railways is made with an advantage to the environment. The most important factor of all is that the track is there and is under-used, and that is unacceptable. The only disadvantage of the railways compared with the roads is that road vehicles, especially on shorter journeys, have greater mobility, but that is not so important with long through-hauls.
  Why is help needed for the railways? It is fundamentally because road haulage has fewer costs than the railways. The argument about how road taxes do or do not cover total road costs is not important in the context of whether the railways can compete fairly with commercial road users. The important argument is the
  1072
  extent to which the financial burdens of building and maintaining roads fall equitably on commerical and non-commercial road users. If a lighter burden falls on the commercial road users they will be cross-subsidised by the non-commercial road users, and have an unfair advantage in commercial operations over railways.
  According to many experts, that is what happens. Research was carried out in the United States by the American Association of State Highway Officials in about 1960. The association was looking into the costs of repairing roads and found that the wear and tear on the roads varied according to the fourth power of the weight on the axle. That works out in this way: one 10-ton lorry does 10,000 times the damage of one car, weighing I ton, on the road; in other words, 10,000 cars must pass tover the same stretch of road to do damage equal to that done by one lorry weighing 10 tons.
  Not everyone has accepted these figures, but the findings have been confirmed by a British expert organisation, the Transport and road research laboratory of the Department of the Environment. It seems to me—I would like this to be studied by a Select Committee—that motor cars help enormously to keep on the road the very vehicles which are causing most annoyance, and the greatest burden is on the private motorist. Company-maintained cars, which form about 40 per cent. of the traffic, produce what amounts to tax refunds for the companies and thus the net contribution to the road fund is much lower than the gross figure of contribution. This is not taken account of by those in the road lobby who talk about how much tax is paid into the Exchequer.
  However, small short-journey privately owned cars are paying the same road vehicle excise duty as Rolls-Royces, Jensens, Bentleys and Jaguars and, therefore, subsidise the expensive long-journey cars—in other words there is a cross-subsidy by those people who do not have to run their cars economically. Just as the owners of small cars help, as taxpayers, to pay for these and other company cars, so do they help through taxation all those people who receive various company perks.
  If time allowed I would look at the question of how many types of road cost are not charged to the road fund, such as

  1073
  those arising from the policing of the roads, road lighting, court cases involving motoring offences and damage to buildings, for which there is no compensation. My parents' house was damaged by heavy lorries taking goods which could have been conveyed by rail from Barry Docks. The goods were taken along Buttrills Road. The cost of accidents and traffic congestion must also be borne in mind. This amounts to about £1,000 million a year. I would like my right hon. Friend the Minister to look into the question of level crossings and sec whether they can become the responsibility of the Secretary of State.
  Time does not allow me to deal with this matter in detail, but on the problem whether roads meet their costs, what is the return to the nation on the capital value of the 200,000 miles of highway which we have in this country? The right hon. Member for Finchley earlier objected to the capital charges on the railways being met out of revenue, but what is the system on the roads? Can my right hon. Friend say, for instance, that all the mileage of roads has been paid for out of capital that has been borrowed and on which interest rates are paid? I do not think so.
  I hope that money which will now become available to British Railways will be used to improve the railway system, especially for the carrying of freight. Hon. Members have talked about vast sums of money becoming available to British Railways, but the maximum involved would be about £305 million. I intervened during the speech of the right hon. Member for Finchley to say that the French Government pay a subsidy of £500 million to French railways and that the German Government pay a subsidy of £600 million to German railways. But my hon. Friend the Member for Newport (Mr. Roy Hughes) has shown me some notes which indicate that the subsidy to French railways is, in fact, £600 million and that to German railways is about twice as much. Therefore, it seems to me that we are being mean, not generous, to British Railways, compared with Continental railways.
  I wish to emphasise the need to carry more freight on British Railways. Such a move would be very acceptable to the country. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Minister will be able to use
  1074
  his powers and insist on certain projects being carried forward, bearing in mind that the Government will be able under the Bill to provide capital. It is, for instance, ridiculous that we are unable to have a railway depot for the new Covent Garden market at Nine Elms. The need for high-rise development at Liverpool Street has also been mentioned, and I remind the House that high-rise development is still required at Euston Station. It was turned down, stupidly I believe, by the Labour-controlled LCC some years ago. Such developments should be speeded up. They would benefit the environment.
  Many civil servants in the Department dealing with transport are rather road-oriented, having worked on road projects for so long. They say that to add 50 per cent. to the rail ton miles would reduce road traffic by 2 per cent. That is a terrible understatement. If the reduction was only 2 per cent. there would be no objection from the road hauliers' organisations. This is a weighted argument as the word "traffic" is assumed to include cars which have nothing to do with the issue under discussion. The British Railways Board point out that 200 million tons of goods travel distances over 50 miles in heavy lorries. This amounts to 45 per cent. of total road ton miles. A transfer of even half of that amount from road to rail would meet with general public approval and would largely settle British Railways' financial problem.
  It would be in the interests of the nation to make the utmost use of the Bill, and I press the Government to do all they can to ensure that more goods are put on the railways.
  7.39 p.m.
  Mr. Neville Trotter: I believe that it would be possible, but foolish, for this country to manage without railways; foolish because, as is recognised by both sides of the House, railways have an essential part to play in the overall transport planning for our country. But I find it rather odd that tonight we are debating the future of the railways without a paper in front of us setting out that overall policy. As previous speakers in the debate have mentioned, we should have had a White Paper on the broader issue before being asked to agree to the very large financial commitment indicated in the Bill.

  1075
  I make the total sum £2,114 million over five years. It is a total of £400 million a year, which is the same amount that we spend on the whole of the agriculture and fishery industries. Put in another context, it is two-thirds of Government spending on housing. We are, therefore, being asked to commit ourselves to spending very large sums indeed. The aim must be to receive value for money for this very large expenditure, and to see an efficient railway of which the country and those who serve on it can be proud.
  The question of capital spending is probably the most important that arises as a result of the Bill. It is a pity that we have no clear indication of the long-term capital plans of British Rail. Indeed. I think that it is true to say that British Rail has no indication of its long-term capital plans because no such indication has been given to British Rail by the Government. Not only is that injurious to the development of railways; it also has an adverse effect on the export potentials of the British Rail workshops. If the workshops are unable to plan for their future requirements in terms of capital spending, it is extremely difficult for them to obtain export orders and to plan for them to the fullest extent.
  All of us must have been saddened by the way in which, recently, we were unable to demonstrate the advanced passenger train to the Americans who had been brought over here by the Chairman of British Rail, who used considerable initiative. With the possibility of considerable export orders and the rejuvenation of passenger travel on the American railways, it was necessary to put the Americans on a rather old train to Derby, or some other railway centre, to look at the advanced passenger train without their being able to travel on it, when they had come all the way from America to do so. That was because of some unfortunate industrial dispute.
  Some hon. Members have said that electrification is an essential aspect for the future. I entirely support that view. I believe that we should follow the example of other leading European countries and aim to electrify the whole of the main line network. Italy, France, Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Holland and Belgium—everywhere of any importance in Europe—have all gone over to
  1076
  very large-scale electrification for all their main lines. That must be the long-term aim for our railways. Not only is it a more efficient system; it has been proved by the Euston electrification to have a considerable psychological advantage and to attract more passengers simply because of electrification.
  I ask the Government to give us some indication of their thinking on the future of the advanced passenger train. Not only has it export potential, it is a very exciting concept for passengers in this country. Again, I return to electrification because there are two proposals for the APT—one is for an electric machine and the other is for gas turbines. In both cases there would be a revolutionary new system of suspension. In the case of the gas turbine there is the additional complication of the new and somewhat untried form of power. I believe, therefore, that the future lies with the electric APT rather than the gas turbine. But the answer should be to electrify all the main lines rather than to proceed with quite expensive research on gas turbine machines, which may prove to be unnecessary and will certainly be very complicated.
  Regarding the other stock of British Rail I suppose that hon. Members of this House must be among the most regular users of British Rail. They will know that there is an urgent need for new sleeping cars. I believe that none has been built for 20 years. They appear to be square-wheeled sauna baths. If ever there was a case for air-conditioned stock, it is sleeping cars.
  As I understand it, there is a shortage of equipment necessary to expand the motor-rail service, which is apparently very satisfactory and which has the obvious advantage of taking private cars off the crowded roads. Again, I should have thought that capital equipment was needed to develop that service to the maximum.
  Regarding restaurant cars and rail catering while the inter-city services and the general standard on those services for speed, catering and so on, is good, the catering on cross-country services is normally deplorable. The standard varies. Last year there was one extraordinary cross-country service from the North to the South-West, in respect of which the question whether or not there was a

  1077
  restaurant car depended on which day of the week one was travelling. On Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays one could have lunch. On Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays one had a cheese sandwich and a glass of beer. This led to many arguments from those who had expected the former service and obtained the latter. This is something to which the senior management of British Rail should give their urgent attention.
  When trying to attract passengers it is not good enough to rely on very old vehicles and a very limited menu that is normally confined to cheese or ham sandwiches and beer or tea. The chairman, whom I met recently, said that the old image of the curling rail sandwich was a thing of the past. That is probably true, just as the rock bun preserved for 20 years on Crewe Station is a thing of the past. But a great deal more imagination needs to be given to catering on cross-country services and to the speed and type of stock used on services over a 300-mile journey from, for instance, Newcastle to Bristol. It would be a worthwhile investment to improve services on that route, and on the other route from the North-East to Manchester and Liverpool, passing, as both of them do, through many of the main cities in Britain. The services at present are poor.
  I turn now to the subject of diesel multiple units. Again, none has been built for many years. There is a need for re-equipment. On cross-country services, a question that British Rail should examine is whether there may not be two levels of service upon which one could obtain the same financial result. It may well be that on the slightly more frequent services one would lose no more money. It is probably being too optimistic to assume that one would make money on cross-country services, but there could well be a low-level and a high-level service for the same financial result. It is obviously better to provide more frequent services for the same cost.
  I shall leave the question of commuters largely to my hon. Friends who represent other parts of the country. I want to raise the important point of the subsidies which are at present being paid by local ratepayers in the passenger transport executive areas. I have always thought it unfair, whatever the complexion of the Government of the day—the Govern
  1078
  ment who introduced it, the previous Government, and the present Government—that there should be a system whereby ratepayers of certain conurbations have to pay from their rates an ever-increasing part of the cost of providing local commuter services while at the same time paying, through taxation, for commuter services in other parts of the country. It is quite unfair that they should pay twice. I hope that the Minister will be able to assure us that in the general review of railways finance this inequity will cease.
  A number of comments have been made about the extent to which the Government and civil servants will in future be interfering with the management of the railways. Obviously, this is a difficult subject. It is hard to strike the right balance between excessive Government control and insufficient control, but it is essential that the railways be left with a reasonable degree of freedom of management. I had hoped that we would have tonight some indication from the Government of the lines upon which the railways will be asked to proceed. We are told in the Bill that the lines will be settled with the Minister. It would be helpful if the House could be informed as soon as possible what sort of system of monitoring it is intended to institute.
  The aim of the railways must be to provide an efficient and well-used service. Only thus can we obtain full value for the considerable amount of taxpayers' money that is involved in the proposal before us. Like some other hon. Members, I hope that the trade unions involved in the railways will accept the faith shown in the future of their industry by Parliament in the Bill and will not regard it as a blank cheque for the future. I have a very high regard for the ordinary member of the staff of British Railways, whatever his union. It is a pity that the troubles between the National Union of Railwayment and ASLEF, which go back for perhaps a century, have not been resolved. The ordinary railwayman whom one comes across in one's travels has a high degree of dedication.
  One hon. Member opposite said that drivers regard it as unfair that bunny girls in London earn £55 a week. I could not help reflecting, when that comment was made, that, whatever the present rules on discrimination, very few ASLEF

  1079
  members would qualify for the job of bunny girl. However, there may well be a case for further differentials in rates in an industry such as the railway industry between different parts of the country. This possibility should be explored, however difficult it might be to introduce.
  Hon. Members on both sides have said that in general it is regarded as realistic to accept that there are limited prospects, however much we may regret it, for attracting a great deal more freight to the railways, because the nature of so much of the freight on the roads is such as to make it very hard to transfer it to the railways, although one would like to see it transferred, if possible. We must leave it to the railways to attract freight on commercial terms, using good marketing techniques.
  As for passenger services, the need is a fast, frequent, comfortable and reliable service, with the added advantage of a reasonable standard of catering.
  There are two main new passenger markets for the railways. The first is to attract the motorist. It is extraordinary the way people are prepared to put up with the inconvenience of a motor car rather than avail themselives of rail services. I believe that there is still a great deal that the railways can do to win the motorist over to them. Secondly, I believe that by means of differential fares there is scope for a considerable increase by the attraction of new travellers. I suggest to the Minister that he, together with the Railways Board, should carefully consider the suggestion that old-age pensioners should have a concession of half-fare travel at off-peak times when there is spare capacity.
  7.52 p.m.
  Mr. David Stoddart: I welcome the Bill. I suppose I should declare that I have some interest, in that I am a member of the Electrical. Electronic and Telecommunication and Plumbing Trade Union, which is not often mentioned in connection with the railways but nevertheless has a number of members working at the railway workshops.
  I represent a town which fortunately, in spite of British Railways and the last Government, still has some activity going
  1080
  on in the workshops there. It has been interesting to learn from the debate so far how many remarkable conversions there have been over a period. Nobody will now say a word against British Railways. Nobody is prepared to say a word about the infusion of money into the railway system. Not so many years ago many people said that we were throwing good money after bad by investing any money in the railways.
  This conversion is all to the good. Many of us have been warning the country for a long time that Governments would run down the railway system at their peril. Fortunately, although the railways have been already run down far too much, there are signs that we have at last learned the lesson, that at last we recognise that we cannot have a rational transportation system unless there is a good, viable, efficient and large railway system.
  A little while ago I was afraid that the lesson had not been learned. I, like others, read in the Sunday Times that there were people in the Department of the Environment who were contemplating running the railways down even further than the 8,000 route miles which we have at present.
  Mr. Ronald Atkins: To 3,000 miles.
  Mr. Stoddart: It was called "the blue book". When I raised the question on the Select Committee for Nationalised Industries, I was told that this should not have been published: it was a highly secret document. All the copies which were anywhere about were quickly withdrawn and hidden from the view of not only the public but the staff.
  The Sunday Times did the country a great service in getting hold of that document and publishing it to show that there was still such antiquated thinking in the Department of the Environment. It alerted the British population to what was happening and what might well happen unless the public told the Government in no uncertain terms that they would not have their railway system further run down at the behest of some Government or some civil servant in the Department of the Environment.
  We are now apparently all agreed in the House that the railway industry needs a great deal of support, for reasons we now clearly understand, and a great deal

  1081
  of capital investment. Over the past few years the railways have been starved of necessary investment. Since the railways were nationalised, and, indeed, long before, the capital investment has not been sufficient to meet the needs of the railway system. Over the past 10 to 15 years it has been a crying scandal that we had invested so little in this great national asset.
  At the same time as we have been starving the railways of investment, personal transport and road building have taken a disproportionate share of the country's resources. I have asked questions about this. Indeed, amongst my best friends I have become known as a railway bore—I have "BR", not "BO". Over the past three and a half years I have had to keep fighting for the railways, because over that period my constituents have been badly affected by wrong decisions taken as a result of the lack of capital investment.
  The annual total investment on roads, including vehicles, as I have learned from ministerial answers, is about £2,700 million. That does not take into account any other costs such as accidents and damage to property. At the same time as we have been spending £2,700 million annually on vehicles and roads, we have been investing in the railways barely £100 million annually—barely £100 million per annum. Little wonder that the railways are not as efficient as we would like them to be; little wonder that there have been complaints from hon. Members about these services and about the ride on square wheels. The investment level is the reason. We have invested only £100 million on the railways compared to £2,700 million on the roads. I have said that several times because I want to get the message across, to explain why the railway system has declined to its present position.
  This policy has led to enormous environmental problems and has resulted in the total neglect of the travel interests of the non-car-owning public. People without cars are entitled to as much consideration as the car owner. The old are entitled to their own travel arrangements, including rail travel. The young, the poor and the disabled are entitled to a good railway system. Because of this lack of investment these people and their
  1082
  travel arrangements have been neglected under successive Governments.
  There is at least a glimmer of light, an indication that the problem has been appreciated and that something will be done about it. The task given to the railways in 1968 to become commercially viable was an impossible one. They would not achieve it because they were competing with heavily subsidised road services, a fact not generally realised. What did that task lead to? First, it led to the railways concentrating only on those services which could be profitable—the inter-city services. Of course, the commuter lines in Essex and elsewhere were neglected through low capital investment. That is why hon. Members' constituents are not getting the satisfactory service which they should have and which cannot be provided unless the railways are given the necessary resources.
  The railways have also turned away freight traffic, although that is not generally realised either. I discovered this when I visited the Pressed Steel-Fisher works in my constituency. I saw heavy lorries rolling out with six or eight cars on them, leaving to congest the roads in Oxfordshire and Wiltshire. I asked why the products were not sent by rail since the firm had a railway siding. I suggested that they would be easily transported, probably quite cheaply, and that the villages like Faringdon and elsewhere would be spared the congestion. The manager said that he would be delighted to send them by rail but that the railways would not accept them, that they did not want the work, which was not profitable, and that they were concentrating on the inter-city services. How stupid!
  I am glad to see that since I raised the matter there has been a change of policy and that train loads of car bodies will now be travelling between Swindon and Longbridge. That is a development I very much welcome, but I should have been even happier had it happened much sooner.
  My right hon. Friend the Minister will know all about the railway corporate plan because he and I and trade unionists discussed it ad nauseam. Under it large sections of the railways, including the railway workshops, would be run down. The plan ensured that many of my constituents were put out of work. Workshops were closed down or run down,

  1083
  including those at Swindon. Highly skilled staff who had been with the railways for many years were dispersed to other trades. British Railways, with a fine example of administrative sadism, made 300 of my constituents redundant on Christmas Eve. That caused a great deal of hardship to many of my constituents.
  Mr. Spriggs: Regardless of the large number of people who were driven out of their jobs by this policy, regardless of the hardship that this policy caused, the road lobby got its roads.
  Mr. Stoddart: My hon. Friend is right, but I am glad to see that with the present Minister the roads lobby is to he perhaps put into perspective as it should be, and I hope that my right hon. Friend will continue in that approach.
  Mr. Bob Cryer: I entirely endorse what my hon. Friend for Swindon (Mr. Stoddart) said, and I look forward to confirmation from the Minister on that point.
  Mr. Stoddart: Perhaps we should not believe everything we read in the newspapers, but we believe what we want to, and I hope that my right hon. Friend will confirm that his attitude is to put expenditure on the roads into perspective.
  In the workshop rundown we at Swindon were told that the locomotive repair activity would cease, and it ceased. We reached the situation where I was asking the Railways Board to ensure that redundant railway engines, only 10 years old, were broken up at Swindon in order to give my constituents jobs at a time of high unemployment. That was the pitiful level then reached. Only a few months later and only a short while after the breaking up started, British Railways suddenly found that they had insufficient locomotives.
  Mr. Atkins: Was that not another of Beeching's mistakes?
  Mr. Stoddart: It certainly was one of his, but unfortunately it was repeated by people who should have known better. The British Rail workshops are busy trying to reclaim locomotives which British Rail said were redundant two years ago. There is a grave shortage of locomotives and wagons. The difficulty my right hon.
  1084
  Friend will find when he is encouraging British Rail to carry more goods by rail is that it does not have the wagons or locomotives to enable it to do that.
  Fortunately, we still have in Swindon a big railway workshop potential, but the workshops are not building or repairing locomotives. They will keep going by building railway cranes for Krupp of Germany. I am worried that the British capacity to build the necessary locomotives does not exist, and that very shortly we shall be importing locomotives. That would be a serious matter. It would be badly received by railway workshop personnel who have been thrown out of jobs over the past three and a half to four years.
  I hope that my right hon. Friend will be able to confirm tonight that it is not the intention to allow British Rail to buy locomotives from abroad, and that he will tell it that it has the capacity in Britain, if it cares to use it, to build our own locomotives. I hope that he will tell British Rail that it must do that.
  The right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) seemed to object to the Minister's intervening in railway matters. I can well understand that, because I repeatedly asked the right hon. Gentleman to intervene to prevent the rundown, and he repeatedly refused. I hope that in the light of what I have said tonight right hon. and hon. Members will agree that there was a case for intervention to prevent the rundown, which was against the national interest. I hope that my right hon. Friend will not be diverted from his task by the words of the right hon. Gentleman, who was formerly Minister for Transport Industries—and not a very good one.
  I trust my right hon. Friend. I have known him for a long time, and I know that he wants the railways to succeed and to play a much greater rôle in this country's transportation policy. It is encouraging that in part of the Bill he is to provide grants to firms for private sidings and other railway handling facilities. Although the sum involved is only £5 million, it is at least a start.
  Mr. Mulley: There has been a misunderstanding about the £5 million. That is our estimate of the provision in the first year. There is nothing in the Bill to restrict the sum. If the demand is greater,

  1085
  we shall try to meet it. The £5 million is merely an estimate of what the amount will be in the current year.
  Mr. Stoddart: I thank my right hon. Friend for that information. There has, indeed, been a misunderstanding. It is encouraging that this is only the first stage, and that if there is a bigger demand it will be met by my right hon. Friend's Department. I have been advocating such aid for the past three and a half years, and I am pleased that my right hon. Friend has acceded to my request. I am sure that it will help the railways in their bid to carry more traffic by train.
  I repeat that I welcome the Bill. However, I believe that it is only a start. I urge my right hon. Friend to carry the matter through and make sure that British Rail is continuously supported so that the morale of the British Railways Board and the people who work in the industry is maintained at a high level, because that morale will quickly build up the railway transport system to the peak that we need and deserve as a country.
  8.16 p.m.
  Sir Anthony Meyer: The constituency I represent would be in a sad way if there were any reduction of rail services to it. On that ground alone, I am among many hon. Members on both sides of the House who are delighted that the Government, following the policy decided upon by my right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton), have decided against any policy of reducing the size of the British Rail network.
  The hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. Stoddart) is probably right when he says that the provisions in the Bill for future investment in British Rail are not large enough to meet the needs of the situation. That is a point of view which I am inclined to share. We must also take into consideration that there is a need for large investment in the coal industry, the electricity industry and the steel industry, quite apart from the massive State investment that must take place in schools, hospitals and subsidised housing, none of which can be expected to operate at a profit.
  Somewhere there must be a limit to this process. Someone must make the profits out of which those loss-making industries and services can be subsidised. Therefore, it behoves the Labour Party to adopt
  1086
  a somewhat more friendly attitude towards those industries that succeed in making a profit, so that those profits can be made and in their turn subsidise the great public industries.
  I say that only to remind myself and hon. Members on both sides of the House that there are limited resources available to do what we want to do with the railways, and that therefore there must be priorities. We cannot do everything.
  I hesitate to criticise the Bill when it is supported by the Minister—for whom I have a high regard—and by my right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil, for whom I also have a high regard, but what bothers me about it is that it contains no incentive to the railways to increase their efficiency. The form in which the subsidy is given—I am not talking about its size—does not contain any built-in incentive to operate in a less costly manner or in a more cost-effective manner
  There have been complaints from both sides of the House that we are not given a transport White Paper as a general framework of transport policy in which we can consider the Bill as a contribution to that policy. It so happens that in the past day or two there has appeared a report of the Independent Commission on Transport, chaired—rather oddly perhaps—by the Bishop of Kingston. I arrived only very shortly before the debate and I have not had time to study it in detail, but it seems to me to provide some framework of reference. It makes specific suggestions for gearing a subsidy on the basis of the number of passenger-miles and the number of ton-miles carried by the railways above a certain limit, and that it should be on the basis of that mileage, and of specific figures which the report gives of so many pence per passenger-mile and ton-mile, that the subsidy should be given.
  Whether or not that is the right basis for a subsidy, it seems that it must be better than the totally open-ended approach that is adopted in the Bill. Desiccated economists—I do not include my right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil among them—keep telling us that whatever people may wish it is foolish and impractical to try to get a large amount of traffic off the roads and on to rail. Some figures have been quoted

  1087
  today to illustrate that point. However, the plain fact remains that many people want to do it. Included among that group are people who do not themselves make much use of the railways and who would be in the position of having to contribute towards the expense of shifting traffic off the roads without using rail themselves.
  If people want to do something like that, and if it is not manifestly wicked or manifestly impossible, it is our job as politicians to consider whether something can be done. I believe that we can do something as long as we are prepared to pay the price and as long as the people whom we serve are prepared to pay the price.
  Not even the most desiccated economist can claim that the car is an efficient method of carrying out the operation of commuting. It has been said that confidence in the reliability of the rail system is such that it has resulted in a situation in which far too many people attempt to commute by car with disastrous consequences all round.
  The economists seem to be quite happy with the kind of situation that we have along the London-Birmingham stretch of the M1. To my mind that stretch of roadway presents one of the most dangerous and terrifying sights and experiences that it is possible to encounter. I drive home to my constituency along the M1 and every time I join it at Watford or Hemel Hempstead I am petrified when I have to fit my car into an inexorably moving mass of vehicles, three abreast, travelling at 70 mph, with never much more than 20 feet between one vehicle and the vehicle in front, every vehicle belching smoke, making the most terrifying noise and leading to the most appalling pile-up and loss of life if there should be any interruption of the flow.
  That seems to be the most nonsensical way of going about things. It reinforces the suggestions which have been made that there should be a considerable extension of the facility of motorail. Obviously it is much better to put a car on to a train and to put oneself into a sleeper and to wake up the next morning at one's destination. Equally, there are strict limits on what can be achieved in this direction. The present track could not
  1088
  possibly cope with the amount of wheeled transport which uses the motorways for longish journeys.
  I am wondering—I hope that my right hon. and hon. Friends will not be too shocked—whether it would be possible for British Rail to enter the hovercraft market and to extend from the rails to the motorways. They could then provide some kind of carrier service whereby carriers carrying six or eight cars would be available at interchange points on the motorways—they could operate, fox example, every 10 minutes—to carry vehicles for a minimum distance of 100 miles to another major motorway exchange. That would drastically reduce the number of private cars travelling along the motorways.
  I believe that such a carrier operation would be extremely profitable for whoever carried it out, and that it would go a long way towards improving the environment. The question whether or not such a scheme would be practical would have to be considered further, but one thing that has emerged clearly from this debate is that there is general recognition on both sides of the House that British Rail cannot be allowed to diminish in size and that there is some disposition to hope that it may be allowed to grow a little.
  I speak as a fan of British Rail. I enjoy travelling by rail. From that statement hon. Members will be able to deduce that I travel a great deal by inter-city and very little on the commuter lines. I enjoy excellent meals when I travel by rail. Our standards compare admirably with the standards of catering on most Continental railways. I just wish that the Bill not merely guaranteed that British Rail will be able to continue at about the same level and at about the same standard of efficiency; but held out hopes of real improvement as a result of building into it incentives to make things better.
  8.26 p.m.
  Mr. Bob Cryer: I must begin by declaring an interest. I hold five £10 shares in a private railway. I am probably the only Member of this Parliament who drives a full-sized steam engine for relaxation on a former British Rail branch line. It is a branch line that in its last year of operation some 14 years ago carried 135,000 passengers and 20,000

  1089
  tons of goods. That is the sort of quantity and volume of traffic that has been declining from the railways ever since.
  It is not to the past that we must look but to the future. There have been some threads of nostalgia running through tonight's debate, but we want to see a modern, efficient, and forward-looking railway system. That is, I believe, what the Bill will help to achieve. The hon. Member for Flint, West (Sir A. Meyer) mentioned that the Bill does not contain any incentives to efficiency. It is easy to say that, but we must remember that the railways have a high standard of safety and that increases in efficiency that cut corners are not necessarily compatible with safety. We all, of course, remember the Hickson level crossing disaster, when manned level crossings were abandoned and electronic equipment was substituted. It will be realised that, although in theory that is more efficient, the dangers are commensurately so much greater that the cost of hazards looms very large and the full concept of efficiency is lost. We must bear in mind the concept of safety so that the railways can maintain their enviable record.
  The Bill provides a necessary injection of capital because it is necessary not only to retain our existing passenger network of approximately 11,000 miles but to improve it. It has been suggested that the railways should never have been nationalised. Perhaps that is true, because all the time that they operated before nationalisation they were sliding into bankruptcy. It would have been far better to let them slide into bankruptcy and to demonstrate their difficult capital position and then to take them over and rescue them from the certain doom to which they were heading. That is an indication of the difficult financial position in which the railways found themselves soon after the war, let alone in 1973–74.
  It is useful also that the Bill gives wide powers to the Secretary of State under Clause 4 and perhaps restores to the House some of the accountability for this State-owned industry which it should never have lost. Unfortunately, as I understand it, the nationalisation Act actually reduced the amount of accountability to the House. It is good that the Secretary of State will have some measure of control again, because he in turn is accountable to us.
  1090
  I hope that, under his fairly wide powers, my right hon. Friend will encourage some sort of workers' participation and democratic control. There has been much talk about the industrial relations difficulties on the railways. One of the concepts of nationalisation was that the hierarchy should bear some relation in representation to the rank and file workers. Alas, far too often the board seems to have been saddled with discarded generals or others footloose and wanting a cushy job. It did not improve the attitude of the porter, the signalman or the shunter, working throughout the night, to know that their wages were still comparatively low and that the hierarchy had not really changed. One of the aims of nationalisation was to improve worker participation and democratic control, and I urge my right hon. Friend to do so, because this sort of move is something that the trade union and Labour movement looks to the Labour Government for.
  Mr. Tyler: I am sympathetic to the point which the hon. Gentleman is making. But would he not agree that the centralisation of British Rail has also reduced the impact and the influence of the individual railwaymen on the policy in which the hon. Gentleman is interestd?
  Mr. Cryer: This is a problem of organisational control, but one must also bear in mind that one of the difficulties, even to this day, of the nationalised rail system is that in some instances the boundaries of the old pre-grouping companies still exist. In my constituency, for example, British Rail started a very good advertising campaign, but the first timetable there showed a boundary at a signal box, which most members of the public did not readily appreciate. The reason was simply that the regions divided there, as did the old pre-grouping companies. If we are to have the benefits of a unified national system, there will inevitably be some degree of central control. It is not an easy matter to solve, but we have never really investigated it yet.
  The Secretary of State, under his new powers, could well give greater meaning to the position of the consumer. I do not think that any of us should be satisfied that the railways serve the consumer as well as they might. In many respects

  1091
  one of the faults of the railway system is that it exists as though it were still in the nineteenth century with a monopoly rôle in transport, whereas that position has changed. My right hon. Friend should consider ways of giving the consumer more say. The transport users' consultative committees—consisting of appointees who are never very satisfactory because they are always conventional figures, which is why they are appointed—should be replaced by a far more extensive and radical form of organisation, with representatives from directly elected bodies, certainly including local authorities.
  The railways have important environmental implications. My right hon. Friend said, when we were discussing the Channel Tunnel Bill, that this aspect of the railway-oriented tunnel was not yet satisfactory. I said at the time that hoped he would also bear in mind the environmental advantages of the railway network when considering motorway schemes and their high costs. I hoped that he would also bear in mind the relatively low costs which would be involved in improving the railway network beyond measure.
  The railways are cleaner and swifter and lack the congestion and high construction costs of urban motorways. Track capacity is often under-utilised. In this respect we are all concerned to increase the utilisation of the railways for freight. It is worth bearing in mind that the rail-borne proportion of freight in this country is the lowest in Europe, so we have a good potential for improving it.
  It is worth substantiating the claim of my hon. Friend the Member for Swindon (Mr. Stoddart) that about 10 years ago British Rail had a policy of turning traffic away. One hopes that that policy has been long since reversed. Only 10 years ago demurrage charges—charges for the hire of a wagon which is not in use by the railways and is waiting to be unloaded—were virtually doubled overnight. But one of the things that commercial enterprise must know with some certainty is the level of demurrage charges, because if an industrial concern is hiring 50 wagons per day—which is the sort of traffic British Rail will deal with because it tends to avoid smaller numbers—an increase in demurrage charges can be very swingeing indeed.
  1092
  I am very encouraged, as, I know, other hon. Members are, by the fact that up to £5 million per annum is being provided for private siding connection. Two Ministers of Transport have now said they are encouraging the top 100 firms, or some hundreds of firms, to participate in railway traffic. In the past three years private siding connections have declined by several hundreds, and my right hon. Friend really must get down to this matter and start encouraging traffic, and use this money and not simply talk about it, because the tendency unquestionably is for private sidings to be shut and for traffic to be transferred to the roads. This is a business which must be pursued with vigour.
  Many freight yards have been, and are being, sold off to road haulage contractors. Railway premises which have been used for railway purposes are actually being used by road haulage contractors for the self-same purpose of breaking down bulk—but not for door-to-door delivery, which is one of the most vaunted boasts of road freighters.
  I hope that my right hon. Friend will consider urging on the railways restrictive covenants when railway land is sold. I would urge on him Labour Party policy, that where tracks are taken out of use they should be retained complete and intact for the passage of railway vehicles so that a 10-mile section is not bought totally out of use by the middle half mile being sold off, as so often happens.
  I must make a brief mention of industrial relations. Hopefully, this Bill is a shot in the arm for the railwaymen. When Conservative Members criticise the railway men, I would ask them to consider what their reaction would be if Parliament were declining and we were cutting down the membership of the House by two-thirds. Would they not be anxious about what could come next? It is this sort of consideration which motivates the railway men in seeking to safeguard their jobs and wages and in that situation appointments of retired generals are looked at by railway men somewhat cynically.
  Lastly there is the amount of investment mentioned in the Bill. It is no more than adequate. The electrification side is the glamorous side but let us

  1093
  always remember that it is the local services which affect the vast majority of ordinary rail users, and not those, for example, on travel warrants or other means of free access. The secondary, branch lines, on the cross-country routes, carry the bulk of them. The diesel motor multiple units are fast ending their lives; they have been running 10 years at least and most of them for 15 to 20 years. That sort of capital investment is necessary to the branch lines and cross-country routes, which are important.
  I hope there will be consideration of the possibility of the reopening of lines because as the general trend of remarks has indicated, we are now in an age where environmental considerations are continuously with us and the railways will assume, therefore, an ever-increasing importance in our lives.
  8.40 p.m.
  Mr. Roger Moate: The hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer) revealed himself, rather unexpectedly, as a capitalist shareholder in a railway line. I cannot compete with that, but a week or so ago I had the pleasure of travelling on the footplate of a steam locomotive belonging to a railway that receives no subsidy, never suffers from any industrial dispute and gives great pleasure to all who travel on it—the Sittingbourne and Kemsley Light Railway. This line has a number of locomotives which operate on a four-mile journey. If any hon. Member wishes to pay a visit to my constituency I am sure that he will enjoy travelling on the railway, which is becoming an increasingly important tourist attraction in the area.
  Mr. Cryer: I must make it clear that the railway of which I am a director does not pay a dividend and is run on democratic Socialist lines.
  Mr. Moate: It is sounding increasingly like British Railways—certainly when the hon. Member talks about dividends.
  The hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. Stoddart) made a less than fair attack on the work of my right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) when he was Minister for Transport Industries. Other hon. Members have been rather more fair in talking about my right hon. Friend. If a conversion has taken place in the public's attitude
  1094
  —and the attitude of hon. Members—about the size of a viable railway network, I suspect that a great deal of the credit for that is due to the action taken by my right hon. Friend.
  Under the last Labour Government 3,400 route miles of railway were closed. Under the previous Conservative Government about 135 route miles were closed. This Bill clearly has its roots in the decisions taken by my right hon. Friend, and the hon. Gentleman should pay him full credit for that.
  My first concern is to speak for the 4,000 or so constituents of mine who regularly commute the 45 miles' journey into London from Faversham. These points have been made earlier, so I will not labour them. A fairer deal for commuters ought to emerge from this Bill. I hope that the Minister will realise that these people periodically suffer enormous inconvenience. I was surprised that so many Labour Members who have connections with the railways should be so defensive and sensitive every time anyone dares to comment on the disruption caused by industrial disputes.
  We recognise that there are often legitimate reasons for such disputes and that it is necessary to take into account the history of the industry. But it is surely self-evident that industrial relations on the railways are unsatisfactory. It is unsatisfactory that two railway unions should fight among themselves, as happened in the last dispute. Disruption occurs not infrequently, particularly when weather conditions are at their worst and the inconvenience to commuters is at its greatest. Surely it is unsatisfactory when unions are reluctant to take their case to arbitration. There must be better ways of settling such disputes.
  The Government are prepared to invest large sums of money in the railway system through this Bill. The estimate varies between £2,000 million and £2,800 million. They have, therefore, considerable moral authority in going to the unions and trying to establish better relations. It may not make sense to Labour Members but it makes sense to the public that these unions should merge so that there is one railway union. That would end the arguments about differentials which cause such disruption.

  1095
  This is an opportunity to ease some of the suffering caused to my constituents throughout the year. It takes very little to upset the railway routine. Even at the best of times the trains at Faversham are running 10 to 15 minutes late, night after night. We know that the railways are suffering from an acute shortage of staff. The unpunctuality has, however, prevailed for a long time before this staff shortage, which is of fairly recent vintage. It is a matter of immense frustration and anger to tired commuters when they are constantly delayed and constantly given pretty odd reasons for the delays.
  The Minister obviously has considerable influence over the management decisions of British Railways. He should take some steps to encourage better communications between British Railways and their passengers. I have put this point to British Railways many times, suggesting that there should be better communications from one station to another and between drivers and stations. I gather that on the inter-city services there are very good facilities, with radio telephones in the cab and on-train communication. I gather that it will cost about £2,000 or so to ensure that there is a radio telephone to each driver and to provide on-train communication. If passengers could be given clear, intelligible explanations for delays, much of the frustration and anger of commuters would be eased and many of British Rail's problems would be eased. Complaints would be fewer, and that would contribute massively to good will between British Rail and the commuters. I urge the use of at least one commuter line for experimental purposes in the improvement of communications.
  I have always had courteous treatment from my area committee, but the Transport Users Consultative Committee is, generally speaking, regarded as ineffective. I ask the Minister to consider suggestions that have been put from both sides of the Chamber for more teeth to be given to the TUCC so that it genuinely and effectively represents consumer interests. Thousands of commuters express legitimate complaints, often to their Members of Parliament, but Ministers will not take parliamentary Questions because they concern matters for British
  1096
  Rail management. There is no other channel through which questions can be directed to British Rail. British Rail management is always immensely courteous and helpful, but the process is ineffective. Given more powers, the TUCC offers a sensible basis for satisfying genuine consumer complaints.
  Today rail fares for my constituents and for everyone else go up by 12½, per cent. The rail fare from Faversham to London is now approximately £6 a week. That is the largest item in the budget of many of my constituents. They see fares going up inexorably year after year while they are being subjected to appalling delays and overcrowding. That is not the quality of life that we are seeking to provide. The phrase "social railway" rings hollow for many people.
  On French expresses there are boutiques and hairdressing salons, and on the inter-city lines on the Continent there are radio telephones. People do not ask for that. All they ask for is reasonable comfort and punctuality the whole year round. The fares they are paying entitle them to better conditions. I hope that the Bill will give British Rail the incentive to invest more rapidly in those services and that the Government will play their part in persuading unions to reconcile their differences and give a guarantee that, during the winter months particularly commuters will travel in greater comfort.
  Mr. Spriggs: The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that many hundreds of thousands of passengers wish to travel to work within a certain period in the morning and to return at approximately the same time in the evening. How is the Railways Board to cater for rush-hour traffic without overloading trains? Can the hon. Gentleman help us with any suggestions?
  Mr. Moate: I certainly recognise the tremendous pressure of commuters on the South-East network. Not nearly enough has been done to encourage the staggering of hours. Some years ago I asked whether the head office of British Rail staggered hours and I was told, rather shamefacedly, that it did not. We have not taken the staggering of hours seriously at national level. I understand the point, but it needs only a marginal improvement to get trains running on

  1097
  time for most of the year. That is all I ask, and I do not think it unreasonable.
  I turn next to the matter of parliamentary control. It is a little frustrating that in respect of minor management details it is difficult to find some means of questioning either Ministers or the railways. This is one aspect which could be dealt with by the TUCC, but certainly on the matter of parliamentary control of finance we must get to grips with the situation. It is all very well to say that British Rail should conduct its own affairs without interference, but it is surely wrong to allow the industry to proceed with the modest amount of control which it has had.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow) said that it was 13 years since a Select Committee investigated the railways. It must be remembered that in that period of time, rightly or wrongly, £3,000 million of public money has been written off. This matter should be carefully watched by the House. If the present Bill is to allow some £2,000 million to be spent in the next five years, we must be sure that it is spent wisely.
  The Minister made some interesting comments about the increased control which the Government and Parliament could exercise as a result of the Bill. I am not sure that that is clear to all of us. I think that at a later stage of the Bill it would be helpful if the Minister could spell out the extent to which he expects the House, and indeed himself as Minister, to become involved in the details of management and finance.
  Mr. Mulley: This is a matter for the Standing Committee. I wish to make it clear that it is not my intention to deal with decisions on why trains are late, staffing and similar matters. One would then be in a position of trying to run the railways, whereas when a Minister gives directions he is always answerable to the House.
  Mr. Moate: I thought that the Minister would want to clarify that point. I cannot imagine anybody wanting to discuss railway timetables across the Floor of the House. But I hope he will take the point that it is difficult to get these matters discussed anywhere and that these are legitimate matters of consumer interest.
  1098
  In respect of financial control it appears that there is to be a system of open-ended grant. It might be argued that this is a legitimate way to proceed, but I believe that it is giving a blank cheque to British Rail and does not offer the extra amount of control to which the Minister referred. I noticed an interesting passage in a speech made by the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) on 4th July last year when she was in Opposition. She said:
  "In answer to Mr. Marsh's demand that he should be given a more flexible financial framework, I say that the way that he has presented his case is the best justification for refusing—as we refused—to continue writing off from time to time capital debts accumulated as a result of over-optimistic forecasts, and instead, as we did in the 1968 Act, making a clear distinction between the areas and forms in which we ought to subsidise the railways on social grounds and, on the other hand, those areas of the board's finances in which it ought to be subject to commercial discipline."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th July 1973; Vol. 859, c. 558–9.]
  There is a great deal to be said for that. At least it appeared that we would have more control over what was happening, whereas under the present system it is difficult for Parliament to know what is going on within the railway network. Until we know how to exercise control over railway finances, the more detailed supervision we have the better.
  This Bill is not the final answer to the management of railway finances by Parliament. I suspect that it will not be long before we shall be faced with more financial requirements and more difficulties. No doubt we shall live and learn, but in the meantime there is all-party agreement that this type of measure is needed.
  I noticed that in the Economist it was said in respect of this Bill that half of British Rail's costs will be borne by the taxpayer. If this is true, it demonstrates how far we have moved along the road to a massively subsidised system.
  One reason why most of us welcome the Bill is the realisation that there is a vital need to transfer as much freight as possible from road back to rail. I am saddened when going round my constituency to see unused rail sidings at various factories. What worries me is that whenever I cross-examine industrialists about transferring back to rail they appear to be cynical about the situation

  1099
  because of their past experience involving difficulties, delays, lost freights and so on. It will be very hard for British Railways to persuade industrialists to use these sidings again and to transfer as much freight as they can back to rail.
  I was a little worried when a Government supporter who has some experience of the railways suggested that British Railways were still negative in their approach to the transfer of freight. I accept that they are very interested in the large and regular users, but it is the wagon loads and the smaller operations, which are just as important to road users, where progress should be made.
  I have seen two instances which support the case. One was referred to by the hon. Member for Swindon and it is a very useful illustration. Nine trains each week will carry car components from Swindon to Birmingham which would require 300 lorry loads in the same period. That is obviously of interest to British Railways and to the environmentalists. What is more, one 700-ton train load per day all the year round will move industrial salt from Cheshire to South Wales. That is 250.000 tons a year. That would mean 40 to 50 full lorry trips per day and an equal number of empty runs.
  Obviously, it is important to get that traffic off the roads. There is a great deal more that could be done. However, the position must not be exaggerated. We know that it will not make a tremendous difference to our present road congestion, but it is accepted that it could make a significant difference. It was calculated that if the railways increased their carryings over 50 miles by 50 per cent., heavy lorry traffic over the same distance would be reduced by a quarter. That is significant, and, if we could move in that direction to a degree, it would be of considerable benefit.
  In the correspondence that I have had with British Railways it has been pointed out to me that not only is there a shortage of wagons but there is still a planned reduction in the size of the wagon fleet. Although these are more modern and more efficient units, I wonder whether a reduction of the order which is planned will be able to cater for a positive effort to switch freight back to rail.
  1100
  I should like to feel that British Railways, backed by the Government, will make a positive sales effort to use their new facilities in the Bill to exploit the opportunities for grants to new sidings and to help regenerate old ones. If they do this, it could make a significant difference to some of our environmental problems and at the very least prevent their getting any worse. That is one reason why I and other hon. Members welcome the Bill, although we view with caution the question of future parliamentary control over these massive sums which we again plan to hand out to British Railways.
  8.57 p.m.
  Mr. Daniel Awdry: We have had a very interesting and worthwhile debate on this Bill, which is of historic importance to British Railways. As many hon. Members have said, the Bill reflects a completely fundamental change in the attitude of the Government towards the railways, and its implications are very far-reaching.
  I shall always remember the many hours that I spent in the Standing Committee which considered the 1968 Transport Bill. Those of us who served on that Committee will never forget it. It was the longest Standing Committee stage ever to take place in the history of Parliament, and it was extremely controversial. However, we were all agreed on one matter. We thought that it might be possible to get away from deficit financing of the railways.
  In her Second Reading speech, the then Minister of Transport, the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mrs. Castle) said:
  "The new financial framework will also mean that there will be no provision for deficit finance. British Railways will be standing on their own feet and will be expected to pay their way…Thus, the depreciation element in the deficit grant will be correspondingly reduced. I believe that this is a fair challenge to the railway industry, but it w ill certainly be a tough one. The Joint Steering Group and the Government are under no illusion that a massive write-off debt will in itself make the railways financially viable."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th December 1967; Vol. 756, c. 1293]
  Later, when the right hon. Lady gave up her job of Minister of Transport her place was taken by Mr. Richard Marsh, the present Chairman of British Railways. He took the same view. He also

  1101
  believed at that time that the railways could be run as a commercial profit-making organisation provided that grants were made available for the unremunerative passenger services which would be kept going for social reasons. That was the view of Mr. Richard Marsh when he joined the 1968 Transport Bill Committee. He was lucky; he joined the Committee stage towards the end.
  In 1969 and 1970, after the Bill became law, the railways made a profit for the first time since 1953. The figures were £14·7 million and £9·3 million respectively. But by 1971 the profit became a loss of £15·4 million, and in the following year the deficit increased by another £10·8 million.
  I believe that my right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton), then Minister for Transport Industries, was right to ask the railways to carry out their own review of future railways policy. He could have called in outside consultants or civil servants to look at the railways. However, he felt it much wiser to ask the managers of the industry to make an analysis of their own business. I support and still support him in that decision.
  Almost a year ago the Railways Board made its report to the Government. It is worth reminding the House that the board said:
  "There is no viable railway network, and any significantly smaller network would require greater financial support than the present day railway."
  That was the first finding of the Railways Board.
  Secondly, the board said:
  "The 'necessary railway' can only be defined in the context of overall national transport policy as decided by the Government, but the Board recommend a railway similar in size to the present network."
  That is the network of 11,500 miles.
  Following that report, the then Minister made his announcement of policy in this House on 28th November last year. As we have heard, the basis of that announcement was to maintain the present railway network, to spend £900 million over five years on investment in British Railways, and to support his proposals with a White Paper covering the whole spectrum of transport policy. I emphasise the last point particularly because I shall return to it later.
  1102
  Since then we have had a General Election. Now the present Minister has asked us to approve this Bill. We can examine quickly what it does. It abolishes the existing subsidies for branch lines and makes available £1,500 million for the general subsidy of passenger services over the next five years; it writes off £189 million of capital debt which will save British Railways about £15 million per year in interest charges; and it increases the maximum borrowing power to £900 million.
  The Bill does not state what additional money will be made available for investment. Many hon. Members were looking forward to hearing the Minister give more details of the investment to be made available for the railways. Frankly, we are a little disappointed that he could not tell us more. I understand that the Government are to review all their public spending, but it is essential that British Railways should be given details of the investment that is to be made available to them.
  The hon. Member for Leicester, East (Mr. Bradley) described the Minister's statement as vague. The hon. Gentleman was supported by his hon. Friend the Member for St. Helens (Mr. Spriggs) who wanted to hear more about investment in British Railways and he in turn was supported by my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Mr. Trotter). They all took the view that it would have been helpful to be told more about investment in British Railways. If the Railways Board is to run the railways it must know several years in advance the long-term planning and investment proposals.
  I make the same point for industrialists who work for the railways. The hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. Stoddart) made some good constituency points about the railway workshops in his constituency. I should like to make a constituency point for Chippenham, where Westinghouse—a very large company which has many years' association with British Railways—is situated. That company needs orders for several years ahead so that it can set up specialist teams to deal with these orders. If the orders are not given and if the planning of investment is not long term, those specialist teams may be broken up. Westinghouse, like British Railways, must be able to plan well ahead. I hope that when he concludes the debate—or at

  1103
  a later stage—the Minister will give us more details about the investment plans for the railways, because the Bill does not do that.
  No one can doubt that the Bill will result in an immense increase in the rate of Government support for the railways. It may even mean, in due course, that half the cost of the system will be borne by the taxpayer. Before we part with the Bill, therefore, we are entitled to get some clear answers to a number of issues that have arisen throughout the debate.
  I shall touch on only three matters, because I said that I would speak for only about 15 minutes, but we shall wish to raise other matters in Committee. First, what has happened to the Government's integrated transport policy? Secondly, how will reasonable and proper financial discipline and control be maintained by Parliament? Thirdly, what guarantee is there that an improvement in industrial relations on the railways will take place and justify this large payment of taxpayers' money? We have not had answers to those questions so far, and we await the Minister's speech, during which we hope that he will reply to them.
  I ask the Minister to let us into the secrets of his ideas on an overall transport policy. The Minister may know that last month the TUC devoted one-third of its statement on transport to this very question of an overall transport policy. The TUC wants a national transport planning authority, it wants to extend public ownership to all road haulage operators who have more than five vehicles of over 2 tons unladen weight, and it asks that all major road planning decisions in future should be taken by this national transport planning authority. No doubt the TUC will ask that half the members of the authority should come from the trade unions.
  We have not heard very much about the road haulage side tonight—though we heard from the railway lobby—and I ask the Minister to say whether those ideas put forward by the TUC are in line with his thinking on an overall transport policy.
  I ask the Minister to tell us a little more about the road programme, because we have not heard very much about that.
  1104
  Last week the right hon. Gentleman said that there would be a reduction in the road network programme from 3,500 miles to 3,100 miles. He also indicated that a lower standard of road building would have to be accepted, and that has caused certain anxieties for the road haulage industry.
  We have heard about transferring traffic from road to rail, but even the TUC accepted in its policy document that the old road versus rail argument is irrelevant, and I think that all hon. Members will agree with that. If one excludes coastal shipping, the average haul for all transport in the United Kingdom is 32 miles of the total ton mileage of the road haulage section, hauls of more than 75 miles amounts to only 10 per cent., and only half of that concerns bulk materials which could possibly be switched from road to rail. Only about 2 per cent. to 4 per cent. of all road haulage traffic could possibly be attracted back to rail. It therefore follows that it is essential that sufficient investment in the motorways and other principal roads around the cities should continue. The Opposition feel that over the years the Government have talked a lot about an integrated transport policy but have not yet done very much about it. That is a glaring weakness in the Bill.
  The second point relates to financial control and discipline. I realise that there is a serious dilemma here because one has to steer a delicate course between control and interference. My right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil made a forceful statement about this and so did my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Tynemouth. Over the last few years there has been a tendency for parliamentarians and the Civil Service to intervene a great deal in the day-to-day running of the railways. One chairman of British Railways said that he felt like the chairman of a public company with its annual general meeting in permanent session throughout every day of the year. That is a hopeless proposition. It is very bad for management, and it gives them a ready-made excuse for inefficiency.
  If Governments intervene and affect decisions of management against management's better judgment, at the end of the year management can blame the Government for the bad results. We believe that the Government should give

  1105
  management a job to do and then let it get on with it. The Minister agreed with that view in his opening speech. No industry, in either the public or private sector, will survive too much interference from Ministers, Members of Parliament or civil servants.
  Having said that, we do not consider that the powers in Clause 4 of the Bill are yet satisfactory. The Minister should insist, by means of the Bill, that yearly detailed figures are published of the traffic and the cost of each service. For example, it is intended that freight charges should reflect their true share of infrastructure costs, and we feel that unless detailed requirements are written into the Bill it may become impossible for Parliament or the public to make any proper distinction between losses which it is prepared to meet because of social and environmental advantages and losses incurred simply because the service is badly run. We shall return to this point in Committee and see whether we can improve the provisions so as to get better supervision.
  I come to the thorny question of industrial relations on the railways. I assure the hon. Member for Leicester, East—who is not present at the moment—that I do not wish to make any mischief. The hon. Gentleman raised this matter in his speech and it is not surprising that much of the debate has concentrated on this issue, bearing in mind the sufferings over recent months by commuters as a result of industrial action. This point was mentioned by my hon. Friends the Members for Woking (Mr. Onslow), Essex, South-East (Sir B. Braine) and Faversham (Mr. Moate). I wish to make clear that I do not want to say anything which might make a difficult situation worse, but if large sums of public money are to be spent on the railways the public will demand both efficiency and an end to restrictive practices which they feel are now totally out of date. This is not the occasion to review the history of the dispute between ASLEF and the other unions—
  Mr. Leslie Huckfield: I presume that the hon. Gentleman is aware that since 1962 the number of footplate staff has been reduced from about 80,000 to about 28,000. Where are the restrictive practices in that?
  Mr. Awdry: I do not want to stir things up, but the public do not understand drivers who are prepared to take a train out one day when it is not fitted with a speedometer or a windscreen wiper, or has some other small thing wrong with it, but next day utterly refuse to take it out, leaving hundreds of commuters left standing in the cold. This is all to do with the rule book. The hon. Gentleman is aware of this. He has made several interventions in the debate and has tried to make a good case for his own union in this connection. But I am not trying to stir up trouble. Rather, I wish to point out that the public will not accept the position unless industrial practices can be improved.
  As I was saying earlier, this is not the occasion to go into the history of the dispute between ASLEF and the other unions, which dates back to the proud traditions of the engine drivers. The dispute gained impetus by attempts to restructure pay rates—perhaps the 1968 Penzance agreement was a major factor, but there have been other occasions.
  I admit that pay on the railway is still probably too low. Staff have to work difficult hours and have problems of their own. I accept that there are many difficulties, but I cannot accept the argument of Mr. Buck ton that only train drivers have a special case. Modernisation and high speed trains have also changed the jobs of other workers. There have been innovations such as automatic signalling, automated marshalling yards and new track-laying networks.
  The drivers sometimes claim that there is a great shortage of drivers, but the most serious shortages are in the key grades of guards and signalmen. Some members of the public wonder why it is even necessary in the 1970s to have a separate trade union for drivers, but I shall not pursue that matter now. What is absolutely agreed—everyone who has spoken in the debate has agreed about it—is that it must be in the best interests of those who earn their living on the railways to produce a service which is attractive to the public and, therefore attracts more business. That is the common interest which should unite the unions and not divide them.
  Mrs. Elaine Kellett-Bowman: Does my hon. Friend accept

  1107
  that the nation must appreciate that if it is to get service from railwaymen, all those who have to work unsocial hours, whatever their job on the railways, and who are deprived of normal family life at weekends, and so on, must he properly remunerated?
  Mr. Awdry: I am grateful for that intervention. However, we all know in our heart of hearts that the sheer bloody-mindedness of one or two militant drivers did a great deal of harm to the whole image and reputation of the railway industry. It is a matter of the highest priority for the industry that a better attitude is achieved. This must be a common interest. That has been recognised by all who have spoken in the debate. There is nothing on this subject in the Bill, but I hope that the Minister will mention the question of industrial relations in his reply to the debate. In this debate, speaker after speaker has mentioned this issue. It is an issue that the railways will have to get right if they want to move forward, as we hope they will, to great success in the future.
  As I have said, this has been an important debate. Many questions have been raised, and we hope that we shall get some answers. But although there is clearly a number of matters on which we should like more information, and although the Bill leaves many questions unanswered, we shall not oppose the Second Reading of the Bill.
  9.17 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Neil Carmichael): Everyone will agree that we have had at least a very definite declaration of interest. That got a grand boost today. Practically everyone who has spoken in the debate has declared some interest in the transport industry, including the hon. Member for Chippenham (Mr. Awdry), whom I congratulate on making his first speech about transport from the Opposition Dispatch Box. As he said, a number of us served on the Committee which dealt with the Transport Act. I was unlucky in that I did not join that Committee until some time had passed, but I joined it early enough to get the feeling of that Act. There was then a great amount of opposition and much genuine
  1108
  argument. One cannot be up all night arguing with people without a certain cameraderie building up. The hon. Member for Chippenham came to be known as "His Worship" because it was known that he had been the Mayor of Chippenham.
  The hon. Gentleman has raised a number of points with which I hope to deal. The debate has taken longer than many people had thought, although most of the points raised have been extremely interesting. They show that transport is a very important part of our lives. We are influenced very much by our interests and those of our constituents, and we are very good barometers of the latter.
  The hon. Member raised the question of an integrated transport service. But he should be fair. In three and a half years the Conservative Government did not produce an overall plan for transport. The Labour Government have been in office for three and a half months. With matters such as the road network and the new Bill to be put forward, the hon. Gentleman is asking a lot of us.
  Mr. Peyton: The point that the hon. Gentleman persists in ignoring is that he and his right hon. Friends and many of their colleagues, when they were in Opposition, bleated for something called an integrated transport policy. What somewhat surprises my right hon. Friends and me is that, given an opportunity in office, they do not immediately come forward with some little chunk of this pie in the sky about which they have been talking for so long.
  Mr. Carmichael: As my right hon. Friend said, we have introduced the Railways Bill, and he has also made a statement on the road programme. That is fair progress in three and a half months. The hon. Member for Chippenham, if he will look again at the programme, at the statement, at the Press conference that followed, and at the many Press comments, will understand exactly what was meant by the 3,100 miles, and he will also understand that the road haulage industry is not as worried as he suggested that it was.
  As my right hon. Friend brought out clearly earlier, the main purpose of the Bill is to replace the present inadequate ad hoc arrangements for putting public

  1109
  money into the railways by a new financial structure based on carefully considered policies which take account of the facts of railway operation and which will give the Government some real control over railway strategy as well as finance.
  The central theme of the speech of the right hon. Lady the Member for Finchley (Mrs. Thatcher) was that we were proposing to replace a fine system of specific subsidies by a blanket grant which took no account of the social and environmental rôle of railway operations. In fact, the opposite is true. While in theory the 1968 Act is based on the attractive concept of identifying and paying for those specific services which would be maintained in the public interest by Government grant, the difficulty we have found in practice is that the financial results of a railway operation are such that the 1968 approach, if logically and thoroughly followed through, could well result in all but a handful of railway passenger services being individually grant aided. What would be the point of this?
  The concept is all very well in circumstances where a basically profitable undertaking is operating a comparatively small number of services, but where almost all the services would seem to be unprofitable, why go through the administrative accounting contortions, at considerable expense, involved in an arbitrary allocation of joint costs?
  Incidentally, I think that many right hon. and hon. Members who have been appealed to for help by their constituents when there has been a question of a rail closure or an application for a rail closure will want to know that the formula known as the Cooper Brothers' formula will not apply any longer for determining Government grant to branch lines which are likely to be closed. I take the point which has been made that it will be a paring operating only; there will be no slashing.
  Moreover, the allocation of railway costs for grant purposes does not help the management or the Government to run these services more efficiently or to determine how they could be improved. The Cooper Brothers' formula does not tell us anything about how joint costs allocated to individual services are, in fact, incurred.
  1110
  Finally on this point, I again remind the House that the 1968 Act system was proved totally inadequate. The right hon. Lady asked for figures. In 1973 grants for specific loss-making passenger services amounted in all to only about £80 million, whereas the total cash shortfall of the board which the Government had to finance was some £72 million. It is estimated that in 1974 specific passenger grants will be over £100 million, but the likely deficit on revenue account, after allowing for these grants, could be half as high again.
  Much of this is due to the refusal of the last Government to allow the Railways Board to increase prices in line with its costs, which was, perhaps, the main reason for the rapidly escalating costs to which the right hon. Lady drew attention, which it falls to this Government to deal with and which is another example of many of the financial problems which were bequeathed to us.
  In short, what my right hon. Friend is doing is to bring out clearly for the first time the full costs which the community will have to bear for the railway system which it so clearly wants to continue in existence and to establish a grant regime which will not only provide sufficient support but will incorporate new controls over what is happening. It is emphatically not deficit financing, as I shall now try to explain to the House.
  The right hon. Lady proposed a "capital and revenue budget with allowance for contingencies". That is just what the proposed system would provide. The proposed grant under Clause 3 will be based on estimated net costs subject to adjustments only for predetermined factors. Estimates will be derived from the board's annual rail budget, which is in turn derived from the rail business plan. Under the Bill the Minister and the Department will be involved in that plan from the outset and will thus be in a position to influence the scope and quality of the whole network of services on which grant will be paid.
  The right hon. Lady made some play about the EEC regulations. The new system of support for British Railways is entirely consistent with EEC regulations concerning railways. Regulation 1191/69 which requires Governments to compensate railways for any public service obligations whicvh they impose upon

  1111
  them, allows support to be given, either for specific services or for the passenger system as a whole. Regulation 1192/69 which requires Governments to abolish or compensate for unfair burdens imposed on railways in the past, is less relevant to this country than to most other European countries because British Railways have benefited from successive write-offs of capital and accumulated debt.
  I emphasise, however, that the system of support has not been dictated from Brussels. In passing, may I mention how much the Brussels system owes to British thinking? The Government are providing grant for the whole passenger system because they recognise that the railways are basically uncommercial but perform a valuable social service. Both the Bill and the EEC approach have much the same objective—to put railway finances on a proper basis. Perhaps some members of the EEC will come in due course to accept the way that we have been choosing to structure our grant as the right procedure for settling their problems.
  Parliament and the Secretary of State will retain control over the large subventions which are being made available. There are new provisions in the Bill to enable Parliament to review public service obligations when the support limits are reached and for the Secretary of State to be involved in the formulation of the board's policies and plans.
  Mr. Onslow: This is a point on which I tried to press the Minister. Is the hon. Member saying that we should be lucky to get three quarters of an hour in debate if the present fixed ceiling is exceeded?
  Mr. Carmichael: If additional finance is required there will be a requirement to come back for more, but once the process of discussions with the board have taken place and the board has put forward an agreed policy with the Government Parliament will certainly have an opportunity on annual reports and at other times to discuss the board's returns. The Secretary of State will keep his existing powers to approve all major investment projects, and he will continue to lay the board's annual report before the House.
  Another important point is that rail passenger services will not be able to be
  1112
  withdrawn in the future as they were in the past unless they are subject to the same rigorous procedures as now exist.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, East (Mr. Bradley) and other hon. Members suggested that British Railways were being prevented from carrying out long-term planning by Government policies and this prevented their economising by bulk ordering of rolling stock. We must consider the overall investment programme in the railways in the context of the review of all public expenditure, but I would not accept that this is preventing British Rail from carrying out any planning, since there is already a substantial level of commitment for next year and later years on an existing number of projects. Moreover, we are continuing to approve the new projects in principle subject to the overall investment ceilings which may be approved in due course. I can also assure my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Huckfield) that investment in freight generally will be given the priority it deserves, and that includes investment in the freightliner service mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester. East.
  The right hon. Lady asked whether the new borrowing limits in the Bill included borrowing required for the Channel Tunnel rail link. Some allowance has been made, but no decisions have yet been taken about the project.
  I also confirm my right hon. Friend's reply to the right hon. Lady's question about the Long Title. I am advised that the words
  "To amend the law relating to the British Railways Board"
  are wide enough to cover the extension of borrowing limits in the Bill. The same applies to the reduction in Clause 1 in the board's capital debt.
  The hon. Member for Essex, South-East (Sir B. Braine) suggested that there should be a more flexible structure of fares, with the reintroduction of cheap workman's tickets and concessions for off-peak travel to maximise traffic. Only last year the board made substantial changes in its fares structure. It introduced special weekend fares, 17–18 day returns, and many other concessions. They were made as a result of judgments of the board, which is always entitled to make adjustments in its fares structure as long as

  1113
  there is not an overall increase. I am sure that the board will note what the hon. Gentleman says, particularly in view of the area from which he comes, about which he has a great deal of information and which he understands very well.
  I should like to say something about industrial relations. The Government recognise the heavy strain placed on the whole industry by the rapid rundown of manpower over recent years, mentioned by many hon. Members, and the change in the method of working from steam to diesel and electric. The fact that modernisation has been achieved with remarkably little trouble is a tribute to all concerned—management and labour. The board and the unions have both long accepted the need for a more rational pay structure to meet the needs of a modern railway system. A workable solution to the problem must be based on mutual consent; it cannot he imposed. I think that the right hon. Lady and other Conservative Members are aware of that.
  In 1972, as part of the pay agreement, the board undertook to review the whole railway pay structure, an enormous and complicated task. Working parties were set up with the unions to do the job, and the board's proposals were put forward last autumn. Unfortunately, they were not acceptable to all concerned. The whole problem of the pay structure was eventually submitted to arbitration, and a decision is expected shortly. The Government hope that it will at last provide a basis on which the industry can solve this longstanding issue and ensure good industrial relations in coming years.
  The rule book was mentioned by the hon. Members for Woking (Mr. Onslow) and Faversham (Mr. Moate). It is essentially a safety manual. That is part of the problem. The manual has recently been revised and brought up to date in consultation with the Railways Inspectorate. It is intended to be used reasonably by reasonable men. One of the difficulties is that because the book is so complicated—necessarily complicated—it can operate properly only when relationships within the working situation are very good. That is what we are trying to achieve with the new pay structure and in going to arbitration. It must work well within the industry because of the enormous importance of safety.
  Mr. Onslow: The Minister said that the rule book had recently been revised. Was that since the troubles of the winter period, with which we became so familiar? If the rule book is integral to safety, why is it such a fruitful source of dispute? Surely, trains either go out safely or do not go out at all?
  Mr. Carmichael: The details of the revision of the rule book are a matter for the railway management and the Railway Inspectorate. The hon. Gentleman, with his interest in the aircraft industry and aircraft, knows well enough that the incredibly complicated checks that need to be made could hold up an aircraft indefinitely. There could be similar delays on the railways if such checks were carried out to the letter. That is what working to rule means. We can all find many examples of detailed working to rule which ultimately reach the point of being unacceptable. That arises only because of the atmosphere in which they are being operated. The atmosphere has in the past been bad, but if it is the right atmosphere the men, whether they are working on aircraft, railway engines or buses, will behave reasonably. If they are treated reasonably or if they feel that they are being treated reasonably—and I am not saying that their feelings are always based on logic—they will behave reasonably. Sometimes the illogical can be very real to the people concerned.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Preston, North (Mr. Atkins) spoke about the wear and tear on roads. Hon. Members will remember that this matter was discussed at some length during the Transport Bill, but the parts dealing with the wear and tear on roads were ultimately dropped. The hon. Member for Tyne-mouth (Mr. Trotter) who had to leave—he sent me a note to that effect—raised a number of specific, interesting and important matters which I shall have to take some time to consider.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Swindon (Mr. Stoddart), who represents, of course, a very important railway town, said that we have learnt the lesson that the railways are important. I think that we have always believed on both sides that the railways are important. The important thing is how important we thought they were and how much we were willing to contribute towards keeping them going.

  1115
  My hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer) declared an interest in a light railway. He spoke about workers' participation and involvement. The railways are getting round to those matters. In fact, some years ago there was a railway study of such matters with which I think the right hon. Member for Yeovil will be familiar. I had left office before the study was available. I hope that I may have a chance to see it later. However, there was a study regarding the possibility of more participation. There is no doubt that the rails still exist and the track beds will be kept until the Minister gives his authority to have them removed.
  The question of private sidings has been raised by hon. Members on both sides. My right hon. Friend has already written to the companies concerned. This is not something that might happen, because my right hon. Friend has already written. The sum of £5 million is mentioned but that is not an upper limit. If the response is sufficient and worth while, I can assure hon. Members that my right hon. Friend would be only too pleased to find some way of increasing considerably the amount available.
  Mr. Spriggs: I hope that my hon. Friend will remember that I put several pertinent questions to him. I hope that he will try to answer them.
  Mr. Carmichael: I have a note of the questions which my hon. Friend put. I know his great involvement in these matters. The problem is that many points have been raised by many hon. Members. We shall be going into Committee and there will be ample opportunity to discuss many of the points that have been raised today.
  I hope that the House will agree that the Bill deals with the problems which beset the railways as realistically as possible. It provides an assurance of continued Government support for a national network while giving opportunities to review strategy in the light of changing circumstances. For the first time the problem of the enormous and long-standing inherited pensions liability is tackled fundamentally. In future, railway pension schemes will be put on an independent financial basis. The Bill also encourages more suitable freight traffic to be carried by rail. It is up to
  1116
  all concerned—I hope that all hon. Members will accept this—management, workers and customers alike, to demonstrate in practical terms that they share the faith which the Government have today shown in the long-term future of British Rail.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 40 (Committal of Bills).

  RAILWAYS [MONEY]
  Queen's Recommendation having been signified—
  Resolved,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to amend the law relating to the British Railways Board, it is expedient to authorise:—
  (1) the reduction to £250 million of the total liability of the Board in respect of their commencing capital debt under section 39 of the Transport Act 1962 and in respect of sums borrowed from the Secretary of State under section 19 of that Act;
  (2) any increase in the sums to be paid into or out of the National Loans Funds or the Consolidated Fund in consequence of any provisions of the new Act increasing the limit imposed by section 42(6) of the Transport Act 1968 on the aggregate amount outstanding in respect of the Board's borrowings and commencing capital debt to £900 million;
  (3) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of sums required by the Secretary of State to reimburse the Board the amount of—

  (a) payments made to the persons administering or the trustees of any relevant pension scheme, and sums appropriated by the Board for the benefit of any such scheme, for the purpose of funding any such scheme, including payments made and sums appropriated by way of interest; and

  (b) expenditure incurred by the Board and sums appropriated by them for the benefit of the fund of any scheme to which the British Railways Board (Alteration of Pension Schemes) Order 1973 relates, for the purpose of repaying, and paying interest on, sums belonging to any such scheme and deposited with the Board or applied to the general purposes of their undertaking.

  (4) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of sums required by the Secretary of State for making grants towards expenditure on the provision of facilities for the loading and unloading of rail freight;
  (5) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of sums required by the Secretary

  1117
  of State to pay remuneration to the chairman of the Central Transport Consultative Committee for Great Britain or to the chairman of any Area Transport Users' Consultative Committee established under section 56 of the Transport Act 1962.
  In this resolution 'relevant pension scheme' means a pension scheme in relation to which the Board have or exercise functions or which was established by the Board.—[Mr. Pavitt.]

POLICING OF AIRPORTS BILL
Order for Second Reading read.
9.39 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Dr. Shirley Summerskill): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
The Bill was foreshadowed in the announcement which was made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department on 29th April. He told the House that after consideration with his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade he had agreed that the Metropolitan Police should assume the responsibility for all policing at Heathrow. He also said that legislation would be introduced in the near future with enabling powers to provide for the transfer of police responsibility at other airports should this become necessary.
Over the last few years there has been a marked increase in the extent of terrorist violence against civil aviation. Apart from the hijacking of aircraft in various parts of the world, there have been a number of ground attacks at civil airports. These incidents have not been confined to those parts of the world which have been in a state of conflict; there was a serious occurrence at Rome airport in December last year.
Although there are a number of international airports in the United Kingdom, Heathrow is by far the biggest and most important. Indeed, in terms of international traffic it is the busiest airport in the world. It is at Heathrow that the biggest risks exist.
The British Airports Authority Constabulary—the BAAC—is responsible for the policing of Heathrow Airport as it is for the other airports belonging to the British Airports Authority. This force was not, of course, set up to deal with the sort of situation that we now
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find ourselves faced with, and it has, therefore, had to receive assistance from elsewhere. In saying that, I should make quite clear that I mean no criticism whatsoever of the force or of any individual members of it. It is simply the case that a force established to deal with what I might call the ordinary policing of this and other airports has found itself in the front line in dealing with one of the most dangerous problems of our time.
As a result, for a number of years now members of the Metropolitan Police, some of them armed, have helped the BAAC at Heathrow. In addition, the Metropolitan Police have provided a considerably increased degree of policing in the areas for which they are responsible around the perimeter of the airport and there is a contingency arrangement for the Metropolitan Police to obtain the assistance of the Armed Services.
Hon. Members will remember that in the recent past there have been emergencies at Heathrow. Last Christmas the threat was judged to be one requiring the assistance of the Army. This operation was an occasion on which use was made of the arrangement whereby the Metropolitan Police assume overall control, including control over the BAAC. Quite apart from the experience gained, it was an example of the need in the face of an emergency for there to be a co-ordinated, unified system for controlling security in the airport and in the area around the perimeter. More recently, in the middle of last month there was a bomb explosion at Heathrow, which again emphasised the risks with which we are faced and the need for there not to be any delay in responding to them.
The policing situation at Heathrow has, therefore, been the subject of a very thorough review. I should make clear, since this is not a Bill on which I think there will be, or ought to be, any substantial difference between the parties, that the review had been set up by the Conservative Government. The review made a number of things quite clear. It showed that in the foreseeable future there is no realistic probability that the sort of terrorist threat with which we are now presented will substantially diminish, so that it is not one where we can rely on ad hoc arrangements. Although the strength of the BAAC has recently been

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increased in the light of the terrorist threat, it was apparent to those concerned, including the BAA, that the arrangement whereby the BAAC and the Metropolitan Police shared responsibility for antiterrorist measure was not satisfactory.
My right hon. Friend agreed that the most satisfactory solution was for the Metropolitan Police to assume full responsibility for all facets of policing at the airport. In reaching this decision, he naturally took account of the views of the commissioner. It was not thought possible to dissociate the responsibility for ordinary policing from that for providing protection against terrorist attack. It was this decision that my right hon. Friend announced on 29th April. I should make it clear that the decision relates to the responsibility for policing. It does not affect the arrangements for military assistance in the event of an actual emergency, nor the criteria which govern the number of armed officers who are regularly available at the airport for security duties.
Legislation is necessary to implement the decision. I should make it clear at this stage that Heathrow, or any other airport, although clearly a place frequented by the public, is private property, as is any comparable undertaking; and in ordinary circumstances the police do not, therefore, have full right of access. Also, there is a statutory provision under the Airports Authority Act 1965 for the BAA to maintain its own constabulary, which of course, it does at Heathrow and its other establishments. To transfer the responsibility for policing from this force to the Metropolitan Police requires legislation in order to regularise the position of the commissioner of the airport and to establish beyond doubt where powers, duties and responsibilities will lie in the future.
The Government thought it right to seek a power whereby responsibility could, if necessary, also be transferred at other airports, besides Heathrow.
The threat of terrorist incidents is not one which can easily be anticipated. We could find ourselves faced by a comparable threat at some other airport, with all the problems that that would create for providing adequate policing and security measures. The Bill therefore provides for the Secretary of State to transfer policing responsibility at any air
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port subject to certain conditions and parliamentary procedures which I will mention in a moment. It remains to be seen, of course, how far it will be necessary to exercise this power other than at Heathrow. We hope that the situation at other airports will not create problems that have unavoidably arisen at Heathrow.
In this context, my right hon. Friend is aware of the BAA's view that the proposed transfer at Heathrow will not leave its Constabulary as a viable force and that therefore other BAA airports should be dealt with in the same way. My right hon. Friend has taken no decision to exercise the powers other than at Heathrow, and hon. Members may have noticed that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has already told Parliament that he also has no plans at present to exercise the intended powers in relation to airports in Scotland. But full and careful consideration will of course be given to any proposals that the BAA might make to the Home Secretary. In relation to each particular airport there would, of course, have to be consultation with the chief officer of police and the police authority concerned. I would now like to turn to the main provisions of the Bill. Clause 1 provides the power to make orders as a result of which the responsibility for policing an aerodrome would be transferred to the chief officer of police for the police area in which that aerodrome is wholly or mainly situated. It is proposed that the Secretary of State should be able to make an order in the interests of the preservation of the peace and the prevention of crime. Although the meaning of these two phrases may in some respects overlap, they allow the Secretary of State to look at the policing problem in its totality and to give due weight to both the threat of terrorist activities and the problems of "ordinary" crime. The lesson that has emerged from threats posed at Heathrow is that the preservation of the peace cannot be compartmentalised but must be judged as a whole.
The clause also provides for the circumstances in which an airport is situated in more than one police area. It would make nonsense of action under this legislation if two or more chief constables assumed responsibility for policing an airport simply because it crossed their boundaries.

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Clause 1 also lays down the formal process of consultation and the parliamentary procedure to be followed before the airport can be designated. Designation would clearly affect the interests of both the airport and the police authority, and the Secretary of State would also need to be guided by the professional view of the local chief officer of police. He is therefore required to consult all these people. If an order that is subsequently introduced contains a statement that it is made with the consent of the police and airport authorities, it is proposed it should be subject to annulment in either House.
It is to be hoped that in practice such an order would be acceptable to both authorities, and indeed it would be difficult to attempt to designate an airport against their interests. If they do agree, however, there is advantage in the designation being smooth and quick. The Clause provides full protection for the interests of authorities who do disagree with a proposed designation, since, if the order does not contain a statement indicating agreement, it is subject to the affirmative procedure and either party would therefore have the opportunity to have its view debated.
I hope that the House will agree that these provisions provide both a proper degree of protection to the local and private interests concerned and a proper means for quick action when there is no disagreement. In addition to the formal consultations there would also be informal consultations with the unions and representatives of the whole range of officials and employees who might be affected by designation. The precise scope of these consultations would depend on the circumstances at the particular airport. In respect of Heathrow, for example, the commissioner has held discussions with the unions, who are also to be involved, with the Metropolitan Police and others on a crime prevention consultative committee. There is also provision for revocation of an order, and for such revocation to be subject to the same consultative and Parliamentary procedure.
Clause 2 deals with one of the points that I mentioned a moment ago. The difficulty is that while the airport is private property some places are more private than others. The clause therefore
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requires the airport authority to allow a local constable access to the airport but leaves unaffected the rights of, for instance, a bank or an airline which controls property within the precincts of an airport or terminal. Although constables should be able to move freely around the airport it is not thought right that they should be any more able to enter a branch of a bank there than in the High Street. The clause also makes the necessary provision for ensuring that any existing airport constables shall no longer operate after designation.
The second part of Clause 2 contains financial provisions which I would like to take with Clause 7. The airport and police authorities should settle between themselves the financial implications of designation, and the implications, for instance, for accommodation for police officers, and the airport authority should pay the police authority the figure that they agree. In the event of failure to agree the Secretary of State may determine the figure. The Bill will involve additional expenditure for neither the Metropolitan Police—that is the taxpayer and the ratepayer of London—nor the British Airports Authority. The Metropolitan Police will be reimbursed for its expenditure and while the BAA will have to make payment it will, of course, no longer have to meet the cost of maintaining its own constabulary at Heathrow.
I should, however, qualify what I have said by explaining that Clause 7 allows the Secretary of State to reimburse the airport authority as he thinks fit for expenditure incurred under the Bill. The effect of this provision is that, while the airport authority would bear the cost of ordinary policing it might not be reasonable to require it to meet the once-for-all costs involved in designation. It will be for the chief officer, in conjunction with his police authority, to decide the level of policing required at any airport that might be designated. This will be a new situation for an airport authority that had previously maintained its own constabulary.
From the point of view of the police authority the situation will therefore also differ from the normal one in that the cost of policing the airport will not fall on the police fund. The airport authority should therefore have the chance to make

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known its views about the level of policing and hence the cost that it will be called upon to bear. The commissioner intends that this should be the case in relation to Heathrow, and discussions will take place at an appropriate time each year. The final decision for that airport will rest with the Home Secretary, as police authority for the Metropolitan Police.
I should like now to turn to Clause 3. The powers which this clause proposes should be conferred on members of an incoming force are precisely those which are at the moment conferred on members of the BAAC—no greater and no less. As I indicated a short while ago, theft could be a factor that the Secretary of State would have in mind in deciding to make a designation order. It is not, of course, necessarily the case that the incoming force would wish to exercise these powers, which, in so far as they relate to the searching of people, may be exercised only where there are reasonable grounds for suspicion. Parliament has thought these particular powers in relation to the policing of BAA airports. The Clause also provides that these same powers should be available to the incoming force whether or not the airport belongs to the BAA.
Clause 4 makes various provisions in relation to airport byelaws. Clause 5 makes various necessary adjustments to road traffic provisions at designated airports.
Clause 6 empowers the Secretary of State to make a supplementary order containing various provisions necessary to give effect to the main designation order. The clause allows by order the amendment of any local Act or aerodrome byelaw that is necessary in the light of the designation, and it makes full provision for the transfer from the airport authority to the incoming police authority of existing airport constables, traffic wardens and civil staff employed for police purposes. The commissioner hopes that as many as possible will transfer at Heathrow, so that the change should not exacerbate his existing manpower problems. Yet any system must ensure that the rights and interests of airport constables and employees are fully preserved. The arrangements to be
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applied at any individual airport would clearly be a matter for discussion at the time between those concerned, in the way that, for instance, the commissioner, the BAA and representatives of members of the BAAC and the Police Federation are currently discussing the implications of the transfer at Heathrow. There will, of course, be no obligation on any individual to transfer but, subject to the necessary consultations and procedures, the Secretary of State proposes to make certain adjustments to the Police Regulations so that the service in an airport constabulary of officers transferred could be counted for pay, probation and annual leave purposes in their new force. These changes will complement the provisions in this clause.
Mr. Norman Tebbit: The right hon. Lady emphasised "could be". Should not the phrase be "would be"? The right hon. Lady must consider the position of what one might call the rump of police officers who will not come within the Heathrow arrangements.
Dr. Summerskill: I did say in my preceding phrase that this would be subject to the necessary consultation and procedures. As these consultations and procedures are now taking place, I thought it might be too emphatic to say "would" and I said "could". The intention is that it will happen as a result of the consultations which are necessary and desirable.
Before making an order under the clause, the Secretary of State will be obliged to consult the two authorities and the chief officer concerned.
The remaining provisions of the Bill deal with its application to Scotland and Northern Ireland, and with matters of interpretation. As I have implied, we envisage that in practice it would be the Secretary of State responsible for policing in the area in which the airport is situated who would exercise the powers under the Bill.
In conclusion, I wish to remind the House that the Bill addresses itself to the question—
It being Ten o'clock, Mr. SPEAKER Interrupted the Business.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Ordered,
That the Policing of Airports Bill and the Statute Law Repeals Bill [Lords] may be proceeded with at this day's Sitting, though opposed, until any hour and that the Motion relating to the Children and Young Persons Act, 1969 (Transitional Modifications of Part I) (Amendment) Order 1974 may be proceeded with at this day's Sitting, though opposed, until half-past Eleven o'clock.—[Mr. Pavitt.]

POLICING OF AIRPORTS BILL
Question again proposed.
Dr. Summerskill: The Bill addresses itself to the question of ensuring that there are no avoidable obstacles to efficient policing and security arrangements at an airport. The situation with which we now regrettably find ourselves faced has substantially changed the circumstances at Heathrow, and could similarly change the circumstances at any other airport. These new circumstances seem to the Government to require new provision, and it is that provision which the Bill seeks to make. I commend it to the House.
10.2 p.m.
Mr. Norman Fowler: The immediate context of the Bill is terrorism. The Opposition will always give support to measures designed to meet that threat. I think that the time has come for us all to recognise that we live in an age of the terrorist and the urban guerrilla. We must also recognise that the terrorist threat knows no boundaries. The terrorist is as likely to strike in Tel Aviv as he is in Munich, or in Belfast as he is in London. We must accept that the threat is likely to be with us for some time to come. It will not simply go away, for modern society provides the terrorist with a list of vulnerable and tempting targets.
The list seems almost endless. Last week a bomb was placed in the Palace of Westminster, but it could as easily have been aimed at an embassy, a television studio, an art gallery or an airport. It must be right that the Bill should aim at improving security at airports in Britain, and particularly at Heathrow.
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We welcome the aim of the Bill and support it.
Let us be clear at the outset what we can achieve by a policy of improving security alone. The long list of terrorist targets makes one point inevitable, and that is that there are not enough policemen in Britain or in any country to guard them all. Therefore, an antiterrorist policy must go much wider than purely physical security measures. Unless it does so, all security measures in the world will not suffice.
The Government have rightly identified the terrorist threat as the main reason for introducing the Bill, but I hope they will also use the opportunity to make absolutely clear that they will not be moved or influenced by the tactics of terrorism, that they will not give in to the intimidation of violence, that they will rule out bargaining and deals with terrorists, whether they are still at large or convicted and serving sentences of imprisonment. Nothing is easier than to give way to terrorist pressure, and nothing could be more harmful to the long-term interests of the country.
Given that that is the view of the Government, and I hope it is, it is right that security measures should be improved at our airports. If it makes sense to improve the security at Westminster, it makes sense, too, to improve security at Heathrow. Indeed, it probably makes more sense, because of the greater number of people involved. One of the best security steps must be to put airports under the jurisdiction of one of the best and most experienced police forces in the world, the Metropolitan Police.
Let me make it clear also that to say that is to make no criticism of the British Airports Authority's police. Their standards are in no way in dispute by this Bill. But times have changed, just as times have changed over the past 25 years to out-date those small but in some ways admirable borough forces in police amalgamations.
The British Airports Authority's police force at Heathrow is only 370 strong. A force of that size cannot hope to develop the specialist skill or to have the reserves or the resources necessary to combat the modern terrorist. Yet they guard what is potentially one of the most

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obvious targets in this country for the terrorist. In short my view is that the amalgamation recognises the inevitable, and the Metropolitan Police already support the British Airports Authority police and take command during an incident.
The Government thus intend to improve the anti-terrorist measures to guard Heathrow. As this is their intention it is right for them to set out in more detail exactly how they intend to do this and on this aspect I should like to ask the Government a number of specific questions.
First, it is clear that Britain is not the only country in the world which faces this threat. It is clearly a world-wide threat. What studies have been made by the Home Office of the measures taken abroad by other police forces? For example, the Germans have a specially trained force which guards all airports. I do not say that that is necessarily the right force, but it must make sense in this kind of international situation to pool all knowledge.
Second, I should like to know the Government's attitude to the latest proposals of the International Air Transport Association. The Executive Committee of IATA has just compiled a list of minimum security procedures for international airports. Some of these vitally affect the police and the conduct of police at Heathrow. The committee recommends that uniformed armed officers should be assigned to security screening areas as a back-up to and separate from guards conducting searches. It proposes that there should be uniformed armed officers at key points in the ramp area where aircraft park and at access points to that ramp. It proposes that uniformed armed officers should be at each aircraft boarding door.
Traditionally, the British police have been an unarmed service. Regrettably, in the past few years this has not always been possible. But these proposals by the IATA committee seem to go considerably further than we have hitherto gone in this country. As I understand it, the committee is saying that uniformed police should be obviously armed to act as a deterrent to the would-be terrorist and the would-be hijacker. In other words, the argument is that not only should policemen be armed but they
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should be known and seen to be armed. Clearly, there are very important policy issues at stake here. All that I should like to discover at this stage is exactly what is the Government's view on this very difficult question.
My third question concerns the Government's policy for improving their antiterrorist measures and the police strength which is to be deployed. Under the Bill the British Airports Authority police will be brought into the Metropolitan Police. But the Metropolitan Police force at this moment faces what I can only describe as a crisis of undermanning. According to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, in his annual report published earlier this month, the shortage of men is by far the most serious problem confronting London's police. Yet we are adding to their tasks when the numbers of men and women leaving the force are at their highest point for almost 20 years. We are also adding to their tasks at a time when the shortage of policemen in London is officially put at 5,000 by the Home Office, but which, by any realistic assessment, must be much nearer 10,000. This shortage must be made up.
I think we are entitled to ask how it is to be done. Unless it is done, the shortage will undermine the very policies that we are putting forward.
The Under-Secretary of State for Trade (Mr. Clinton Davis): The hon. Gentleman will realise that the main purpose of this exercise is to enable the British Airports Authority Constabulary to be absorbed within the Metropolitan Police. That is the immediate task. We must look at the situation after that.
Mr. Fowler: I will come to that point. I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. I will tell him why I do not agree with what he says as I develop my argument. I will return to the point about under-manning in the Metropolitan Police and explain why this is relevant to the argument.
In my view, for too long we have been confined to a national pay scale for the police. It is a pay scale which supposes and presupposes that the job of the police is the same throughout the whole country and that the difficulty of getting recruits is the same. It is my belief that in London, which undoubtedly faces much greater problems than other areas, a

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special rate above the national scale should be paid.
Mr. John Tomlinson: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that he is carrying out a superb demolition exercise on the effectiveness of the previous Government's incomes policy, which was largely responsible for so many of these shortfalls in public sector employment?
Mr. Fowler: No. This is not the time, when we are trying to help the Government by putting forward constructive suggestions, to play party politics. There will be many hustings soon at which the hon. Gentleman can do that. This matter is concerned with a structural weakness in the police pay scale which has been present for far to long.
It can also be argued that this amalgamation does not affect the staffing situation in any event. According to the Under-Secretary of State, we are simply putting an existing force under the Metropolitan Police authority. That point would be valid if the strength of the British Airports Authority police was sufficient. Frankly, I doubt whether that can be considered to be the situation.
Heathrow airport employs a total of 51,000 people. Last year over 20 million passengers passed through the airport. In addition, several million more people came to the airport as visitors or spectators. By any standards that is an enormous total. Yet the task of policing that airport is carried out by a force with a total strength of 370. I suggest that that force is already overstretched.
Apart from terrorism at London Airport there is also the acute problem of general crime. There is the problem of theft. An enormous amount of goods is lost or stolen in transit, and the same is true of luggage. There is the problem of smuggling—anything from drugs to pornographic material. The problem is so great that it led the Sunday Telegraph to declare that thieving was the airport's second industry. It is clear that the Government take the threat very seriously, because if that were not so they would not have retained the existing stop-and-search powers.
Mr. Carol Mather: Is my hon. Friend aware that losses per annum from theft amount to between £5 million and £10 million?
Mr. Fowler: It is difficult to make any realistic estimate, and one of the pities is that no official figures have been issued of the amount that has been lost in that way. That is one of the difficulties not only about losses in transit in this area but in transit generally. We have very little idea of the scale of the problem, but I agree with my hon. Friend that a large amount is involved and I am sure that that would be confirmed by any realistic assessment of the situation.
The stop-and-search powers are extremely wide. They include the power to stop and search staff without a warrant, and to stop and search persons leaving cargo areas. At other times such powers might have been considered controversial, not least by the Under-Secretary of State for Trade. We must, therefore, take it that, whatever reservations there may have been in the past, the Government feel that these powers are necessary to meet the crime threat at Heathrow Airport.
What I am less certain about is that, although the Government are taking these powers to meet a crime threat, the present strength of the CID at Heathrow is adequate. As I understand it, the present strength of the CID is all of 16. Surely that number cannot conceivably be considered adequate for dealing with the kind of problems with which Heathrow has to cope. May we therefore take it that it is the Government's view and policy that the CID establishment will be increased substantially after the amalgamation?
In Committee we shall deal with conditions of service of the BAA police. Suffice it to say that we shall want to be satisfied that their interests are safeguarded, but there is one general point which I propose to raise now and which was touched on by the Minister.
The Home Office has made it clear that it wants the Metropolitan Police to take over responsibility for Heathrow, but that, as the Minister said, is not the only airport served by the BAA police. In addition to Heathrow, there are Gatwick, Stansted, Prestwick and Edinburgh. All told, about 80 policemen are employed at those airports, and the intention seems to be to leave those staff in some kind of limbo. The power exists to bring them into the bloodstream of the normal police, but we have no guide as to when or whether that power will be exercised. I

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cannot believe that that is in the interests of the men themselves. There cannot conceivably be much of a career structure for anyone serving in a police force totalling 80, and they will be left in considerable doubt about their future. That does not seem to be in the best interests of the men themselves; nor, because of that, can it be likely to lead to a satisfactory or happy force.
There is a strong case for immediately taking all these men into the police service and putting all the airports under police jurisdiction. I say that because we are aiming here to combat terrorism—otherwise we would not be debating the Bill at present—and the threat of terror-
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ism is not confined to Heathrow Airport. If the terrorist thinks that it is easier to hijack an aircraft or plant a bomb at some other airport he will transfer his attention. Indeed, the fact that security is being tightened at Heathrow may lead him to that particular course.
The Government should, therefore, now seriously consider announcing that they are to extend their policy immediately to other airports so as to ensure that we guard an airport like Gatwick as well as we guard an airport like Heathrow.
With that proviso we welcome the Bill. The terrorist threat exists in this country and we would be failing in our duty if we did not do all in our power to tackle it.
10.22 p.m.
Mr. Neville Sandelson: I have listened with great interest to what the hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr. Fowler) said at the beginning of his speech about the security arrangements at London Airport. One appreciates the secret aspect of many of these arrangements and the fact that by their nature they must remain fairly private to those who administer them, but the hon. Gentleman put a number of questions regarding security on which the Government's reply will be awaited with a good deal of interest.
In recent years I have been a persistent critic of the policing at Heathrow, and for a long time I have advocated transfer of control to the Metropolitan Police, which is now embodied in this sensible Bill. I am bound to recognise that the decision has finally been prompted by security considerations rather than by other reasons which I have advanced from time to time. Nevertheless, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary can be assured of the satisfaction that the Bill will give to thousands of my constituents living near the airport who will sleep a little more easily because of this change in control, and the proposals will be strongly approved and supported by the work force at Heathrow, which is over 50,000 strong and is increasing all the time. Representatives of the work force have pressed for the change now proposed because they believe that it could have a marked effect for the better in industrial relations at the airport. Heathrow is, after all, a massive industrial conurbation. Those who merely arrive at and depart from the airport—
Mr. Mather: I was interested to hear the hon. Gentleman say that the change proposed would improve industrial relations. Why does he say this? In what way could the change help industrial relations?
Mr. Sandelson: I am grateful to the hon. Member for posing that question. If he will be a little patient and allow me to develop my speech he will find that I shall touch on that theme, and I hope that what I have to say will satisfy him.
As I was saying, Heathrow is a massive industrial conurbation, and the travellers who arrive at and depart from the airport
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merely touch the glossy surface of a vast and complex industrial zone which has unique characteristics involving special relationships between trade unions, the employer companies and the British Airports Authority management.
Mr. Leslie Huckfield: My hon. Friend says that the workers' representatives—I presume that he alludes to the trade unions—are in favour of this transfer. Will he tell the House to which of the trade unions, particularly their leaders, he is referring?
Mr. Sandelson: Certainly. Over the last three years I have been in constant touch with the liaison committee—the London Airport Joint Shop Stewards Consultative Committee—in regard to these matters concerning policing at Heathrow. It is because that committee, on innumerable occasions, has criticised the existing policing arrangements at Heathrow that, very much at the committee's behest as well as a result of my inquiries into the situation at Heathrow, I have been not only a persistent critic of the existing police arrangements but a persistent advocate of transfer of police control to the Metropolitan Police. It is, therefore, with some personal knowledge of trade union feelings on this subject that I am able to say that they welcome the transfer of control. I hope that that answers my hon. Friend's point.
Mr. Tebbit: The hon. Gentleman cites the opinion of the shop stewards liaison committee, which has from time to time run into little troubles at Heathrow of an industrial nature. Is it also the opinion of the more representative body, the National Joint Council for Civil Aviation?
Mr. Sandelson: I cannot speak from personal knowledge of the views of that council, so it would be wrong of me to attempt to do so. But in this short debate—I hope that it will be short—I can only express the feelings and views of those with whom I have been in close touch in recent years, namely, the London Airport Joint Shop Stewards Consultative Committee. As the hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit) has just alluded to this matter, may I say that there have been unfortunate occasions when the BAA Constabulary has found itself in the middle of industrial disputes

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at Heathrow. Rightly or wrongly, its members have sometimes been blamed for exacerbating relations on the industrial front, and this has caused resentment and ill-feeling which has not assisted police administration.
At this stage, it would be churlish to dwell too much on incidents in the past of the kind to which I have just referred. But certainly in recent years the vesting of control in the hands of a special constabulary appointed by the management and ultimately responsible to the management has been a hindrance to good industrial relations generally at the airport.
The BAA police were placed in a most invidious position in being regarded as agents of the authority, and an impossible burden was, therefore, imposed on them. I hope that many of the BAA Constabulary will, however, continue to serve at the airport as members of the Metropolitan Police. As I understand it, they will have to match up to the standards of entry into the Metropolitan force. Even bearing in mind the manpower shortage to which my hon. Friend the Minister alluded, I hope that the Metropolitan Police will not lower those standards of entry simply in order to increase recruitment from the present constabulary, because it is on precisely those high standards in the regular force which will be operating in future at the airport that we shall rely for a much better police administration than we have had previously.
Inevitably, this major international centre of freight and passenger transportation generates a certain amount of crime. I do not think that there is any evidence to suggest that crime at Heathrow is out of proportion to similar types of crime at other major airports in the world; but, inevitably, vast quantities of cargo, luggage and valuables are constantly in movement and, therefore, there are thefts on a considerable scale. Airport employees sometimes come under suspicion. Searches have to be made of the person and of the home. These are very personal processes. It is all to the good that henceforth they will be conducted by the regular police, with all their experience and training in these matters.
It will also mean a great deal to those working at Heathrow that in future they
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will be dealing with police who are independent of any other part of the airport administration and who can be called to account should they go beyond normal police powers and procedures. This will be a new and welcome state of affairs at the airport.
I make an urgent plea to the Minister. There is a vital necessity for formal consultative machinery at the airport between the new police administration, the trade union representatives and the management. My hon. Friend the Minister told us that informal discussions had been taking place between the Metropolitan Police and the trade unions. I must tell her that again in regard to this matter the Joint Shop Stewards Consultative Committee has been in touch with me. It cannot pretend that at this time it is at all satisfied that sufficient consultation of a formal, satisfactory and genuinely productive nature has been agreed on and is likely to come into effect.
Therefore, I urge on my hon. Friend the need for formal consultative machinery. Trade unions at Heathrow work through this committee. It is a key body which it would be extremely rash for the police to ignore in the course of assuming their new administrative controls. The trade unions are anxious to enter into consultative arrangements with the police at an early stage. It would be to the advantage of all concerned, in both the short term and the long term, if the police were to agree to the setting up of a formal consultative body which could meet regularly to discuss the special problems they will certainly encounter when they assume control.
The police are entering not just new territory but a special industrial field, a rather sensitive one, with work codes and conventions peculiar to itself. I assure the commissioner that there is a great deal of good will towards the Metropolitan Police at this stage on the part of the trade unions at Heathrow. I know personally the two officers principally concerned in the transfer arrangements—Commander Payne and Chief Superintendent Moore—and I have every confidence in them. They are police officers of the highest calibre. I am sure that their task would be made much easier now and in the future if they would make the trade unions participants in this new

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police venture and, by regular consultation with their representatives, gain the immediate confidence of the huge work force which is present at Heathrow at all times of the day and night.
That is my plea tonight to the Minister. I hope that this proposal will not be rejected simply on the ground that it would involve a novel departure from normal police procedures. The police are assuming duties which are, as they will soon realise, if they do not already appreciate it, of a most unusual nature, and an innovation of this kind would be a practical and worthwhile step.
10.33 p.m.
Mr. Norman Tebbit: At the outset I should declare two interests which I have in the Bill. One is a financial interest as the adviser to the British Airports Police Federation. The other is an interest which is still very much in my heart—that of securing air commerce against terrorism.
I greatly regret the tone of the speech of the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. Sandelson). I thought that during it he used the right word himself—"churlish". His was a churlish speech. The implication was that there were members of the British Airports Authority Constabulary who do not, or could not, measure up to the standards of the Metropolitan Police.
Mr. Sandelson: That is right.
Mr. Tebbit: That is not true.
Mr. Sandelson: Yes it is.
Mr. Tebbit: If the hon. Member says that it is true, perhaps he will list the names of the gentlemen he says are not up to standard, and on what grounds they are not up to standard.
Mr. Sandelson: That would be churlish.
Mr. Tebbit: It is even more churlish to make a wild generalised accusation without having the courage to particularise it.
Mr. Sandelson: The hon. Member is entitled to a more serious reply than I have so far given him. I remind him of one incident, although I do not want to dwell on history in any detail. I could relate a number of incidents and
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a number of people, but I do not think that the House is particularly interested in spending overlong on this aspect of the matter. There was a demonstration at Heathrow on 1st November 1971 which resulted in the BAA Constabulary allowing dogs, supposedly under its control and certainly in its charge, to go for workers who were engaged at Heathrow in a peaceful industrial dispute. As a result of that action on the part of the BAA Constabulary it was felt necessary to set up an inquiry. That was conducted by the Chief Constable of Surrey, Mr. Matthews. His report would make very interesting reading for the hon. Member. He took a strong view, certainly in personal conversations with me, about the behaviour of the BAA police on that occasion.
Mr. Tebbit: I notice that the hon. Member has to bring in a private conversation as part of the evidence in this matter.
Mr. Sandelson: It is true, none the less.
Mr. Tebbit: I take it that the hon. Member will not be satisfied unless some members of the constabulary are excluded from employment.
Mr. Sandelson Mr. Sandelson rose—
Mr. Tebbit: I do not think we should proceed further in this direction. The hon. Member suggested that the consultation should be with the shop stewards liason committee. That organisation does not represent anything like all the workers concerned, whereas the national joint council is representative of all the workers. If there is to be any consultation, I trust that it will be with the official body and not with the unofficial one. On more than one occasion the unofficial body has been in conflict with the official bodies.
Having got that off my chest I come back to the main point of the Bill. The damnation of faint praise is well known and I shall have to give the Bill the cool welcome which, if it does not condemn it, at least implies that I am not overexcited about it. I accept the need for the Bill. It springs not only from the rise of international political terrorism but from the way in which that terrorism has been handled, the way in which it has been nurtured and nourished by the

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habitual capitulations of Governments to terrorism. All Governments have fallen into this trap, and I make no partisan point.
There has also been a serious level of conventional crime at Heathrow—the place is occasionally referred to among shippers by the unhappy name "Thief-row"—and that crime has undoubtedly been encouraged to no small extent by the attitude of many employers who have preferred pilferage to develop into the sort of plunder that is endemic in some seaports rather than risk industrial disruption that could be fomented by changes of working practice designed to act against the conditions that allow that crime to develop.
One does not have to accuse those who practise industrial disruption of being involved in the crime, but any change in these work patterns, let alone dismissals of men, is a good enough cause for disruption. To recognise, as the Bill does and as the Minister did, that a small force of only 500 men is increasingly in need of support in dealing with these problems is not to criticise the men of the force or the original decision to set up the force, a decision made in very different circumstances from those the force now faces. It would be unwise to start to debate the weakness of the defences against terrorism at Heathrow or anywhere else. I know some of them, and the Under-Secretary of State for Trade is probably familiar with most of them. We would make nothing easier by trading those stories across the Floor.
I am not sure that it is right to assume that the threat is much greater at Heathrow than at other airports. If I wished to indulge in that form of terrorism I might well choose to go to the easier airport to bust into rather than the most difficult one. Therefore, we cannot assume that Heathrow is the only one under threat.
Subject to the clearing up of some matters which are minor to the Bill but major to those people affected, and subject to a few matters of more general concern, I intend to help have the Bill on the statute book before the recess. After all, we might have a General Election during the recess, and I should not like to deprive the Under-Secretary of the pleasure of helping to get one Bill on to the statute
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book before his ministerial career is cut short. Therefore, we must make haste.
It is matter of regret to me only that the Home Office and the Scottish Office have not been able to help put the Bill on the statute book as much as I intend to do. I wrote to the Home Secretary about the serious problem raised by the Bill for the men involved, not at Heathrow in particular. I wrote on 15th May and received a reply on 13th June. There is a Latin tag familiar to the more learned hon. Members about justice needing to be swift. The Home Office might reflect on it. The speed of its reply was not impressive, but the reply was understanding and courteous. I was invited to discuss the problems with Lord Harris, who was as helpful as he could be, and the reply was from the Secretary of State himself.
But my letter to the Secretary of State for Scotland received treatment that must be meat and drink to any Scottish Nationalist. I wrote on 21st May in terms designed to let the right hon. Gentleman clear up the uncertainty which had been caused by his reply on 16th May to a Question asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh, West (Mr. Stodart). It took another Question to get any response at all. Eventually, on 21st June, precisely a month later, I received a letter that told me of the existence of the Bill—which I had noticed—and reiterated the reply to my right hon. Friend which had caused the uncertainty in the first place.
Nor did any inquiry about possible redundancies caused by direct Government action merit the attention of the Secretary of State himself. He passed it on to a junior Minister. Are we determined to get rid of Scotland from the United Kingdom? Where are all those fine deeds to go with the fine words about consultation with the workers? Is the Bill what one could call the thick edge of the Wedgwood-Bennery?
The BAA Constabulary has about 500 officers, of whom close on 400 are at Heathrow. The general position of those men is clear. Although there are serious matters still to be agreed, their transfer to the Metropolitan Police should not be too difficult. But the remainder of the men—the 100 or so scattered over another four airports—do not know what will happen to them. They were not asked

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whether they wished this change to be made. They have been consulted in a roundabout way after the event but not before. We now understand the need to act quickly, but surely there must be something which can be said more positively than was said this evening. It is clear that the BAA could not operate a force of less than 100 men, and it is clear that those men are threatened by redundancy. Will the Secretary of State be able to direct himself under Clause 1, which is quite restrictive, to bring those men into their local police forces? The Bill says that he can do so
"if he considers that the policing of that aerodrome should, in the interests of the preservation of the peace and the prevention of crime…"
It does not say "in the interests of preserving the jobs of the men involved".
Will the Secretary of State be able to direct that it is in the interests of the preservation of the peace and the prevention of crime that the four other airfields should become designated airfields? Surely he must know that now. If he does not, should he not have taken steps to find out before tonight? I seek at least the assurance that the Secretary of State will guarantee that these men will be offered continuing employment on terms no less favourable than those which they enjoy today and which would not be in any doubt but for the Bill.
There are a lot of detailed matters where the Bill might run into a little rough water. I shall undoubtedly have to raise the use of the word "may" in Clause 6(2)(c), (d) and (e).
My hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr. Fowler) has raised a number of serious points about security. In the interest of brevity I shall refrain from pulling the leg of the hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary of State on the issue of civil liberties, about which he waxed so strongly during our debates in Committee on the Protection of Aircraft Bill. I hope that he enjoys reading some of the briefs from his advisers who wrote the briefs for my hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow), particularly on the matter of what is or is not a constable. I am glad that we shall all be able to agree on that this time.
There is one other matter that must be raised which is particularly a Home Office point. The new Metropolitan division which will be formed as a result
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of the Bill will cover more than Heathrow. It will have, as I understand it, a force of some 200 men outside the airport as well as those on the airport. I understand that it will be in every respect a normal police division. Will the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis use the division for such purposes as controlling demonstrations and for cup finals? It will be tempting so do so, because, if the airport has a police force which is adequate to defend itself against the terrorist threat, for most of the time the airport will be over-policed. There will be a perhaps near-irresistible temptation to pull out men from the airport to an embankment demo whenever that arises. Of course, that would be just the time when any intelligent terrorist would strike.
I wish to refer to the costs of policing and how the Bill will affect the British Airports Authority. At Heathrow the Home Secretary will have power to fix charges for the policing by his own police force. I would be grateful if the hon. Lady would give some other examples of a similar nature.
Dr. Summerskill: One example is the policing of football grounds. They are private property, and if the football authorities want the police to be there in case a disturbance arises, they pay the police for the service.
Mr. Tebbit: I thank the hon. Lady for that example, but it is not an exact parallel, because the Home Secretary has not directed that they shall have this particular police force to carry out that operation or arranged the scale on which it should be carried out. There is a little doubt there, and it is causing concern to the British Airports Authority.
With those reservations—and others which I shall seek to raise, I hope, in more detail in Committee—I think the Bill can be given a cool welcome.
It is a cause for some concern that police forces are being brought into a large industrial complex—a force which is not particularly adjusted to operating in the day-to-day atmosphere of industrial relations.
The Under-Secretary of State for Trade (Mr. Clinton Davis): My hon. Friend will recognise that it is not simply a question of ordinary, everyday crime with which we are dealing here. There is the constant

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menace of terrorism and sabotage that makes it different from other industrial complexes.
Mr. Huckfield: I absolutely agree. This is my next point. Irrespective of the fact that the prime motive in this transfer of authority to the Metropolian Police is to deal with terrorism—I do not question the need to deal with such activities at all—we cannot escape the conclusion that in its activities to counter terrorism the Metropolitan Police will become involved in day-to-day industrial relations at Heathrow.
10.52 p.m.
Mr. Leslie Huckfield: I must say that, unlike my normal attitude to the remarks of the hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit), on this occasion I agree with a great deal of his speech on this Bill. I speak as a member of the Transport and General Workers' Union, which has the negotiating rights for the majority of workers, particularly industrial workers, at Heathrow.
The official union view, I say advisedly, is nowhere near as favourable to the transfer as my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. Sandelson) would have the House believe. There is a great deal of concern about this transfer, not only because of the manner in which it has been carried out, but because of some of the far-reaching consequences which it ultimately could have. There is a recognition that the chief constable in the areas concerned will ultimately have responsibility, and there is also a recognition that there will be some recourse to the Secretary of State.
There is a great deal of wonderment and bewilderment as to whether this kind of machinery during the transfer process will satisfy all the questions asked and all the issues raised. Surely it is during the transfer, and not after it, that a great many of these issues will have to be sorted out. Although consultative machinery will be established at Heathrow after the transfer has taken place, it is while the transfer is going on that there is a great deal of concern and dissension.
Heathrow is not just the busiest international airport in the world. It is also a very busy industrial complex. It employs some 51,000 workers. I wonder, for
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example, whether Ford's of Dagenham, or any other large industrial concerns, would admit the Metropolitan Police with the degree of equanimity which has been displayed by both Front Benches in this debate.
There will have to be a number of security precautions taken, a number of interviews, discussions, negotiations on work practices, about standing in certain positions when people come on to aircraft and leave aircraft. These are already part of established work practices, and I cannot see how the Metropolitan Police, even though it may be concerned with the more global, international aspects of terrorism, can avoid these day-to-day, routine, workplace operations.
Although some of the workers may regard the BAA police as part of the management at Heathrow, many of the workers there recognise that the BAA police have negotiating machinery with the management alongside their own. Just as the majority of workers at Heathrow see themselves negotiating with the management, they recognise that the BAA police have to negotiate with the management. To that extent it cannot be said that the workers at Heathrow see the police as a direct agent of the management. One of the features which have emerged, thanks to those who have done some forward thinking in the General Workers Union, is that in the event of any kind of dispute or major query there is the right to go straight to the top of the British Airports Authority and see the Chief Executive and Chairman.
This has eased the difficulties which arose, for example, during the dog-handling incident over the GAS dispute at Heathrow. I wonder whether the trade union negotiators or national officers responsible would have had the same ease of access to the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police.
Mr. Sandelson: I am sure my hon. Friend will be aware that on the occasion of the dog-handling incident it was not only the trade unions who were able to have access to the top management of the BAA. A number of others, outside the trade union structure, because of the seriousness of the incident, made immediate representations to the Chairman of the BAA. In the event of a similar incident occurring those same people, and I include Members of Parliament, would

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have equal access to the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police.
Mr. Huckfield: Sir Robert Mark is a busy man. I admire him for his business. He has done a great deal for the metropolis since he took over. I cannot see him having sufficient time to pay the same meticulous attention to detail as the Chief Executive and the Chairman of the BAA paid to that incident. It was their job.
To make this transfer at a time when the manpower of the Metropolitan Police is severely stretched by incidents such as the one which occurred in this House a week ago, by demonstrations and additionally imposed duties, only adds to the burdens of the Metropolitan Police.
According to the Front Bench, the transfer will be fairly smooth, but the medical examination for the Metropolitan Police is stricter, the discipline of the Metropolitan Police is stricter and the career structure is slightly different. Will the people who have got fairly high up the BAA structure be allowed the ease of transfer which has been described from the Front Bench? The easy way out for some experienced senior BAA police may be to join one of the private security organisations. There may be ease of transfer for a man who has not been in the BAAC for long, but there will not be for a man who has given almost a lifetime's service to the BAAC.
Anyone who has had constituency cases involving the transfer of police pensions—whether Palestinian police, Scottish police or even police cadets—knows that this is a very complicated matter.
Mr. Tebbit: This difficult question is easily solved if we all agree that service counts year for year in either police force. I hope that the Minister will be able to give that assurance. That would not be terribly expensive, and it would be wise to have that arrangement to ensure that the transfer is made smoothly.
Mr. Huckfield: The hon. Gentleman has made a good point, with which I agree—that is not a frequent practice of mine. Despite these queries and objections, the Transport and General Workers' Union realises that the transfer is taking place, and everyone at the airport will do his best to facilitate the transfer.
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A major bone of contention with regard to security at Heathrow is the employment of private security organisations. One organisation—for want of a better word—was supposed to be protecting certain parts of the precincts of the Palace of Westminster. The members of that organisation have been far more in evidence after the bomb than they ever were before. I am led to believe that at Heathrow they are much more in evidence after an incident than they were before.
Bearing in mind how private security organisations get recruits, the minimal training given to those recruits and the complaints procedure, which is almost non-existent, I feel very uneasy, as do the majority of workers in the Heathrow complex and in airports throughout the country, about the continued use of private security organisations at Heathrow, not only for Home Office work hut for baggage checks and even searching passengers.
If there is one thing which has really led to continuation of some of the major grievances at Heathrow, it is the fact that there still exist there a substantial number of private security organisations which have to be depended upon but do not enjoy the same standards of recruitment, conduct and discipline. I hope that my hon. Friend will have more to say about what is to happen to the private security organisations, since neither Front Bench mentioned them in opening the debate.
The whole raison d'étre of this Bill is that there seems to be some lack of coordination between the Metropolitan Police and the BAAC. Is my hon Friend saying that the top policemen do not talk together? Is she saying that they do not get together? Is she saying that the Metropolitan Police have a certain range of skills which the BAAC could not possibly possess even if it tried?
It is my experience, in the light of the major concern at Heathrow recently—major operations such as the ringing of the airport by the Army and the police and other anti-terrorist operations—that there is a great deal of co-ordination, particularly at the top. I am dubious about the claim of lack of co-ordination which my hon. Friend seems to think exists. Surely there is great scope for the men

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of both police forces, particularly at the top, to get together without all the difficulties and problems involved in the complete take-over of Heathrow by the Metropolitan Police.
I stress again the need to involve all the unions at the Heathrow complex. One cannot get away from the fact that Heathrow has not had an entirely continuously happy industrial record. There have been difficulties. All sorts of accusations are flung around. In the atmosphere of recrimination which still tends to exist from time to time, this is a particularly tricky moment to transfer most of the policing duties from the BAAC, which the men know in the main, to the Metropolitan Police Force, which the men do not know.
As I have said, the T & GWU accepts that this transfer will go through, and I am sure that during the transfer and once it has taken place all the workers will do their best to facilitate the arrangements for the future. But I hope that my hon. Friend will be able to give us rather more reassurance than we have had so far, particularly about the future rôle of private security organisations.
11.4 p.m.
Mr. A. J. Beith: The hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Huckfield) expressed surprise that from neither Front Bench had he heard reference to the use of private security forces at Heathrow. He will not be surprised that it was my intention, on behalf of the Liberal Party, to refer to the subject.
I agree with the Under-Secretary of State that the Bill is not fundamentally one of contention between the parties, and it will enjoy general support. I am happy to give a general welcome to it.
I welcome the Bill on two grounds. The first is the concern of everyone to improve airport security in the context of violence and terrorism in particular; the second is that it is generally undesirable to make widespread use of what I might call secondary police forces, not accountable through the channels through which public police forces are accountable, in areas where the public is frequently involved and to which it has access. To that extent, the fact that Heathrow Airport is private property seems to me to take second place to the far more important point that an airport,
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like any transport undertaking, is a place to which the general public has frequent access in very large numbers. That again is a point to which I shall return.
I deal first with airport security and primarily with Heathrow, to which most reference has been made so far, especially because that is a decision which has already been announced. It has been indicated that this power will be used at Heathrow. However, many of the same security considerations apply to other airports, some of which come under the jurisdiction of local police forces and others of which are outside the jurisdiction of the British Airports Authority and have their own small local airport police forces.
We have been interested to learn how far the Minister is prepared to go to deal with the remnants of British Airports Authority police left at other airports, but there are airports with increasing international traffic which are under the control of local authorities, to which this Bill can apply, and in which these security considerations are no less important. It has been pointed out that to leave these places without adequate security would be an invitation to terrorists to divert their attention from Heathrow.
I do not suggest that adequate security cannot be provided by means other than the use of public police forces, but if that is argued in relation to Heathrow the same must be argued in relation to other airports with international traffic. There is a strong case for a general review of security at all British airports, and it needs to be undertaken at a fairly high level.
To return to Heathrow, surely it is important in the future that there should be only one authority there in charge of security. At present, the airport suffers from having four different kinds of security force. It has the British Airports Authority Constabulary. It has the Metropolitan Police Force, in so far as it has been involved when there have been major incidents or generalised security risks. It has the security men employed by individual airlines. Then there are the private firms involved there. The result has been a lack of overall supervision and coordination of security, and, as has been pointed out already, security cannot be compartmentalised.

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There is general agreement that a single control of security such as that which the Metropolitan Police could provide is highly desirable. It is to be hoped that when they assume these duties, as seems likely, they will be able to further the review of security in some detail and that it will be possible to spend a good deal of money and effort on the review. The British Airports Authority, creditably, earns a great deal of money for the country, but, unless some of it is spent on security, the profits will be earned at the expense of the safety of the public and of its employees.
What has been tried so far, and the experiments which have been conducted have illustrated it, is that we have to go a great deal further. We have had the show of strength about how we might deal with a major terrorist problem. We have had snap checks on cars and people entering the airport. But a snap check on a single entrance to the airport is very unsatisfactory when people can see what is going on and simply move to another entrance. What we need is a really extensive security review.
Anyone who considers airport security is bound to reflect on his own experience in travelling abroad and looking at airports elsewhere. In Brussels and Amsterdam, for example, it is the police who carry out searches of people getting on to aircraft. It is the police who carry out checks on passengers, and not members of private security services.
That leads me to the second reason why I support the Bill. It is the desirability of entrusting security dealings with the public to a publicly accountable police force so far as possible. It is desirable that any aspect involving the policing of the general public should as far as possible be carried out by a public police force. It is generally undesirable to have people who are dressed like policemen, who look like policemen and who are thought to be policemen, but who are not in the same legal position and the same position of accountability as the police, dealing in a widespread way with the general public. The rights of the public to accountability and the kind of complaints procedure that many of us hope will be improved in the police service are involved. The confidence of the public in the people with whom they deal on security matters is also involved. It
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is difficult for any member of the general public to repose the same confidence in the representative of a private security organisation as in a policeman subject to normal accountability.
On grounds of co-ordination there are strong arguments for policing not to be placed in the hands of secondary police forces. There are also problems for the policemen themselves in being treated as second-class policemen. Members of quasi or secondary police forces often have cause for complaint about pay and conditions. I was recently involved in representations on behalf of Ministry of Defence police over the vexed question whether they could get parity with the public police on pay and conditions.
Obviously, there are advantages where work is of a highly specialised character or is internal in having a separate and specialised police force. But there has been a trend away from this kind of police force. For example, in the North-East the River Tyne police, once a separate force, are now part of the local police in the area. The Bill carries on that trend.
It was disturbing to some of us recently, in the Committee on Unopposed Bills, to be asked to grant an extension of powers almost identical to those in Clause 3. It is astonishing that anyone should express great surprise at the nature of powers when they are a standard feature of certain other areas of legislation, but we were asked to extend the powers of the British Transport Commission's police force in a Private Bill dealing primarily with the British Transport docks. I should have thought that this legislation, dealing in effect with transport policing, would have been the proper place to provide the powers of search and detention of vehicles by private police forces. It might have been desirable to bring other transport undertakings under the public police force if the same powers had been provided to them as are proposed for the airports. Indeed, it might have been desirable and not altogether difficult to consolidate the policing of all transport undertakings in this Bill instead of in undesirable private legislation by giving similar opportunities for the jurisdiction of the public police force to be extended in that direction.
I would not go so far as to suggest that this Bill dealt adequately with the

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whole problem of private security organisations. However, it would not be right to allow this opportunity to pass without asking the Government to look carefully at those organisations, to consider their position when the Metropolitan Police Force takes over responsibility at Heathrow, and to consider their position if similar provision is not made at other airports.
Mr. Tebbit: I certainly recognise that the Government will no doubt look at the position of security organisations, and they will be right to do so. But it is important to emphasise that the routine search of passengers and baggage is the kind of task that the policeman, as we know him, detests. It is wasteful of the particularly high qualities in the men normally engaged in the police force. It is a difficult problem.
Mr. Beith: I recognise and appreciate the point made by the hon. Gentleman, particularly in the context of police manpower shortages. The answer to the problem may lie in the development of a force which is more under the control or supervision of the police than private security organisations now are and which, at the same time, recognises the difference in skills required for specific baggage check operations and those for the wider range of duties which normally fall to a police constable.
I ask the Under-Secretary of State to deal with that aspect and with the wider question of what will happen at other airports, and to give the Government's view about the secondary police sector and the existence of a separate transport police force. I ask the Minister to bear in mind that the notion that airports and places of public transport are private property must always be seen in the context that they are places to which large numbers of the public have frequent resort and at which they are exposed to considerable danger.
11.21 p.m.
Mr. Carol Mather: I think that I am the only Member tonight, apart from the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith), who has no direct interest in the Bill, and particularly Heathrow. I am, as it were, an outsider looking in. I live near the airport on one
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side and my constituency lies very near it on the other, and we suffer from the airport for different reasons from those in the Bill.
If I understood the speech of the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. Sandelson), he was saying that Heathrow is a no-go area for police operations if those operations do not concur with certain requirements which are laid down by the joint shop stewards committee.
Mr. Sandelson Mr. Sandelson rose—
Mr. Mather: That was the impression that the hon. Gentleman gave, and perhaps he will allow me to continue and intervene later if he still feels it necessary to do so.
I think that the BAAC has been fighting a losing battle over the last few years against increasing odds of one sort and another. The airport has an employed population of 52,000 and has to deal with 20 million travellers or visitors every year. It is equivalent in size to Slough, and the crime rate is appalling. With all that, it has its own private police force, the BAAC. There is nothing wrong with that, but over the years it has been overwhelmed by odds of various kinds, and the first one that one thinks of, apart from the terrorist aspect, is that of crime. Official figures put the losses at about £1 million a year, but unofficial estimates say that losses from thefts amount to between £5 million and £10 million. The airlines themselves, unfortunately, have not been as cooperative as they might have been with the BAAC. Their interests lie elsewhere. Apparently they have their public image to think of, and losses from thefts can be recovered from insurance.
Everyone knows the nature of the thefts. There are the ordinary bag thieves, those who pinch people's luggage in transit or from aircraft. There are those who plunder the freight sheds, apparently with great success and with little difficulty. Finally, there are the smugglers of drugs, literature and arms. It is a tall order to ask about 400 men to cope with all those problems.
The police are also fighting union militancy at Heathrow, which is one of the worst in the country. The subject of industrial relations has been of great concern to the BAA, and the worst aspect

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of it is the direct confrontation between workers at London Airport and the police. As so often happens, the police do their job, the unions object for one reason or another, and before one knows what is happening there is a strike situation. The police are castigated as creatures of the BAA, but that is entirely untrue, because once they have taken the oath of allegiance they are officers of the Crown. They have been subject to pressure not only from below but from above. There are, below, the shop stewards going in arguing the toss whenever one of their members is detained for questioning and, on top, the employers inquiring what has happened to the man concerned, who may be involved in a vital operation. Therefore, there has been pressure on the constabulary from two quarters. There is a likelihood in some cases that unions might go on strike, thus causing major disruption at the airport, affecting flight schedules and passengers. Thus, the pressures on the constabulary for a quiet life are very high. Their devotion to duty, under these circumstances, has been exemplary. Blackmail or pressures from the unions on the employers, the British Airports Authority, can indeed be a potent weapon.
The most important aspect is that of terrorism and its escalation over the years. The airport constabulary was formed only in 1966, in circumstances very different from those of today. One would never have believed then, or even up to two or three years ago, that terrorism would at all be a factor to be considered, or that it would have escalated in the way it has, involving hijacking, massacres at airport buildings, bombs in airport car parks, or the latest attempt by terrorists to launch a missile from the area of the airport surroundings. In those circumstances it is right that the Metropolitan Police should now be involved and should take over duties at the airport, but this will not necessarily stop the activities of terrorists until such times as Governments internationally decide to stand up to terrorism and are prepared to take the short-term consequences in looking to the long-term considerations, including the lives which may be saved. Until this happens and until there are proper penalties against terrorists, terrorism will continue.
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I certainly support the death penalty not only for death caused through terrorist action but for acts of terrorism on their own, but I realise that other people do not agree with this. However, if there cannot be international agreement on these lines there can, at least, be national example.
My hon. Friend the Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit) referred to the difficulties of security in places like Heathrow Airport, where there are thousands of acres, an enormous perimeter and much desolate land surrounding the airport area.
Security operations began at Heathrow Airport on 4th January against the supposed use of a missile by terrorists. I must declare an interest because I live within the area concerned. The security operations were on a massive scale, and I do not think that there can be too much praise for those who took part in them for many weeks. But I said at the time to the then Government, and I say it again now, that there ought to be more public information about what is taking place during such operations. There were a lot of wild rumours and Press reports when the security operations were taking place. Nobody knew what was happening. People saw tanks charging around the airport. They were not told why the tanks were there: that this happened to be a battalion on stand-by duty, an armoured battalion, which accounted for the tanks. It would be to the public good if more information were made available as to exactly what was happening on such occasions. There is a lesson here which would help in taking action against terrorists. If we are to fight against and defeat terrorism, we must enlist the aid of the public. We have seen this sort of lesson throughout history.
I make two practical points regarding the terrorist threat. In respect of the IRA, it would be very simple to institute travel documents for people from both the South and the North of Ireland. It would have to be done simultaneously. It would not necessarily mean carrying passports or identity cards—although I believe that to be desirable. All that is necessary is that embarkation cards be completed by passengers from the north and the south of

1155
Ireland arriving in England. This has been done without comment for a period of about a month at Gatwick. This practical step could easily be instituted.
My other point concerns the chain of ministerial responsibility. There is a division here. I understand that the Department of Trade is responsible for security at London Airport but the actual police operations are the responsibility of the Home Secretary. If it came to a major terrorist attack at London Airport in which hostages were taken and quick decisions had to be made, which Minister would have ultimate responsibility? The time during which such decisions would have to be taken would probably be very short. It must be known now who has the immediate responsibility for taking such decisions.
When considering the BAA, another aspect of airport security which we ought to consider is the large number of unlicensed airfields up and down the country. If we are plugging the gap at the BAA airports, we are leaving many holes open at other airports which are available to light aircraft. Her Majesty's Customs and Excise has various categories for these airports. The main one is Category A, at which there is a 24-hour customs watch. Category B involves a 12-hour customs watch, or one can give 12 hours' warning of arrival or departure. Category C involves no customs coverage, except when 24 hours' warning is given of arrival or departure. These airfields are not guarded, neither are they under direct surveillance.
Apart from those categories there are concession airfields, or what used to be called "business user airfields", of which there is a large number where, again, no one is in attendance. The 24-hour warning system is used, as with the other category. These airfields are used by many British firms. Commonwealth citizens who are members of British firms can use them for leaving this country and arriving here. There are also disused airfields and private airfields. This is a great problem. As the Minister knows, these airfields are used every day illegally to fly people in and out of this country without let or hindrance and without surveillance. This is a great and additional problem.
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In addition, there are 20,000 British pilot's licences, mostly for light aircraft. There will be 60,000 by 1980. There are about 4,000 renewals of these licences annually. It is not generally known that holders of British licences can be of any nationality. Numbers of present holders of British licences have had their training in the USSR and have converted to a British licence. People ought to be alerted to these facts, and it ought to be known that these are being used daily for the very purposes in respect of which we are now plugging Heathrow.
Mr. Sandelson: I have listened to the hon. Gentleman's speech with great interest. As he referred earlier to some remarks that I made during my speech, I should like to comment on the matter if he will allow me.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. George Thomas): Order, I trust that the hon. Gentleman is not about to make a second speech. This is a Second Reading debate, and he has exhausted his right to speak.
Mr. Sandelson: I take your point, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I wish simply to correct one point which the hon. Gentleman made. He suggested that I said that Heathrow was essentially a no-go area for the police, save with the permission of the Joint Shop Stewards' Consultative Committee. I made no such suggestion. What I was saying—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I am sorry, but we heard what the hon. Gentleman was saying the first time. If he is asking a question of the hon. Member for Esher (Mr. Mather), that is one thing, but it would keep us here until the morning if every hon. Member went on to make further observations.
Mr. Sandelson: That is the last thing I would wish, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I shall perhaps have further opportunities to raise these points in Committee.
Mr. Mather: I said that that was the impression which I gained from the hon. Gentleman, and I am glad that he has cleared up the matter.
Anti-terrorism is not a job for the police alone. The public must be educated and their help enlisted. The effort of all the people is needed to beat terrorism, and the lessons of history have shown this. It cannot be beaten without

1157
the help of all the people. This Bill is an inevitable step, and a step in the right direction.
11.37 p.m.
Mr. David Lane: The ground has been well covered by my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Cold-field (Mr. Fowler) and by others. I echo the questions to the Government asked by hon. Members on this side of the House, particularly about the Government's plans for any necessary strengthening of the Metropolitan Police at Heathrow and about the relationship between the new division which will cover Heathrow and the rest of the Metropolitan Police's work. Pertinent questions have been asked about the rights of the individuals concerned, on which we should like further assurances. We should also like assurances about the Government's intention to continue standing absolutely firm in the face of terrorism and to ensure that there is the maximum information to and maximum co-operation with the public in any emergency.
I hope that we shall have clarification of the important point about ministerial responsibility, which, I understand, in a major terrorist emergency rests with the Home Secretary. Perhaps the Under-Secretary of State would say something on that.
We support the Bill, and we should like to pay tribute to the steps taken in recent years by the British Airports Authority and to the work done by individual members of the BAA police.
While we are making a job of this, let us be thorough about it. These are unprecedented times. There is the growth of terrorism, of drug traffic and of illegal immigration in addition to the increase in theft. Our response to all these unhappy trends must be effective and must be seen to be effective.
I give two examples of what I have in mind. First, I underline what has been said by a number of hon. Members. In addition to dealing with this problem in relation to Heathrow—perhaps we have been over-concerned with Heathrow, important though it is, in the debate—let us consider other BAA and non-BAA airports where similar threats may arise.
The hon. Lady said that the Government were waiting to consider proposals from the authority on which other air
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ports might be designated. This is not good enough. It is for the Government to make a full assessment of the potential threat from terrorism and other sources at any airport in any category in the United Kingdom, and then make up their minds as rapidly as possible about which airports—BAA and others—should be designated in the first list. If in doubt, the Government should designate. While we are at it, what about the airports in Northern Ireland, particularly Alder-grove? I hope that—if not this evening, at any rate before the Bill leaves this House—the Government will be able to go much further than they have tonight in making clear what are their immediate intentions about designation.
My second example of maximum throughness is more a point of detail, arising chiefly on Clause 3. Are we absolutely satisfied that the powers of search are sufficient? I know that we are transplanting into the Bill some parts of the 1965 and 1968 Acts, but the precise arrangements and wordings of those Acts may not necessarily be adequate to the present situation. Probably the powers of search are already adequately covered by general police powers which the Metropolitan Police or any police authority concerned will be able to exercise. However, it is surely a matter not just of search on suspicion of theft, which is the context in which these powers are mentioned in the Bill, but of general powers of search. We must be quite clear that the powers are adequate. We shall certainly wish to return to this point in Committee.
Next I turn to the steps that should be taken in the transition period for the personnel concerned. The Under-Secretary said that the rights of individuals must be fully safeguarded. She and her colleague have heard the concern expressed on both sides of the House. The transition must be made as smooth as possible. The terms must be absolutely fair for those involved. The consultation must be rapid but also comprehensive. If the Minister is able to go a little further in the light of the debate, I am sure we shall all welcome it.
My last point concerns the general position of the Metropolitan Police. Here I come back to the immediate Heathrow concern—but I emphasise again that we have perhaps concentrated too much on Heathrow, and I hope that the Government's vision will be very broad as they

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make their dispositions and use their powers under the Bill. As my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield said, the Metropolitan Police are being given an additional responsibility. This is a good time for the House to say that it has taken careful and sympathetic note of what was said by the commissioner in his recent annual report.
As we have all been reminded in this place within the last week, the Metropolitan Police are the front line now of the defence of our society and of the democratic values that we have taken for granted for so long in this country. They must be able to count on the absolute support of the House. Any further steps that the Government may be able to take or announce in the near future to bolster and encourage the Metropolitan Police will be backed by this side of the House.
Compared with only a few years ago, there has been a great increase in the problems of countering terrorism and violence by terrorists, illegal immigration and drugs, as well as the more conventional crimes. All this has steadily grown, particularly at our airports, not only Heathrow. On all of these fronts our counter-measures must be adequate. The Opposition therefore want to give the Bill a swift passage, but we want it to be thoroughly scrutinised because we owe it to the public that the legislation must match the threat, and more than match it, not only today but in the years immediately ahead.
11.45 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for Trade (Mr. Clinton Davis): This has been a wide-ranging and most useful debate. The whole House is united in its detestation of terrorists and terrorism and is united in its resolve that all essential steps should be taken to extirpate these foul crimes which endanger so many people and are a constant menace to our whole society. The Bill represents part of the general strategy of dealing with the constant dangers that beset us. I have a number of general points to make in this context.
All aviation security measures are kept under constant review, and if there has been any suggestion in the House tonight to the contrary I wish to make the matter clear. We are certainly concerned to listen to any methods that may
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be suggested for improving these security measures.
One of the principal ways in which this is done is to consult all interested parties represented on the National Aviation Security Committee. On that are represented Government Departments, the police, the Civil Aviation Authority, the airlines, the airport authorities and trade unions, including the British Air Line Pilots Association. I have attended a meeting of the committee and it was immediately plain to me that the system of effective voluntary co-operation which applies in this sphere, as evidenced by the work of the committee, is one of the most important safeguards we have.
In a sense the committee is only a formal expression of the very close day-to-day working relationship which exists between the security advisers in the Department of Trade and their counterparts outside, the Government and the advisers in the Home Office—and I shall be alluding to the points raised about jurisdictional problems.
Basically my Department at the moment provides advice and guidance to airlines and airport authorities on the current threat and on the necessary countermeasures which have to be taken. The security advisers in the Department have completed a programme of security surveys on all our international airports and they make regular visits to monitor the implementation of their recommendations and the maintenance of existing precautions. We have extended our contacts with overseas airlines which use our airports. Very soon after I became an Under-Secretary it was clear to me that this was something which should be looked at. There were certain airlines which in my judgment were not carrying out their duties as effectively as we wanted. I am glad to say that at Heathrow these airlines have now fully accepted and complied with the requests made to them by us and, indeed, by the previous Government, and there are now 100 per cent. searches of passengers on international scheduled flights, which had not been the case before. I am glad to say, therefore, that we have received their co-operation in that respect, and I am sure that this will continue. It has been done on a voluntary basis.
I have spoken of the co-operation of all the organisations concerned with

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aviation security, but it is right above all to pay tribute to the full co-operation that has been forthcoming from the public. The travelling public have to face inconvenience, but they do so willingly and I know of very few instances where people would wish to avoid that inconvenience. The balanced, mature and understanding view on the part of the public has made the work of the security organisations that much easier and more effective. I have said that because I am most anxious that it should not be thought that the Government are in any way complacent about security matters. It is right that hon. Members should have referred to the constant menace.
I turn to the speeches made by hon. Members and I start with that of the hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr. Fowler). His first point was that the Government should not give in to intimidation and violence. I support that view. I rather thought that the hon. Gentleman was seeking to make a party point about that at the beginning of his speech, and I could not help reflecting that the case of Leila Khaled was not a happy augury, because it was not the present Government who surrendered to intimidation and violence.
The hon. Gentleman asked what studies were taking place abroad and by other police forces. There is a constant exchange of information and experience by the police and the security side of the Department of Trade and the Home Office.
On the question of international action, it is sad that the proposals initiated by the hon. Gentleman's Government at Rome, for sanctions against States harbouring aviation terrorists, did not achieve the international support that we would all have desired. I give the undertaking that this Government will continue efforts to achieve an international strategy for dealing with the matter. We shall do that through the International Civil Aviation Organisation or by direct contact, perhaps on a narrower and more isolated basis, with other countries.
The hon. Gentleman asked what was the Government's attitude to the IATA proposals. Those proposals were made quite recently. My Department and I have studied them, and we have already implemented a number of proposals in advance of the IATA proposals. We
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are also considering the relevance of the IATA proposals to those airports which essentially deal with charter flights. I cannot go into specific detail on matters which affect security in this way, because it would not be helpful to do so. It is the practice of successive Governments, rightly, not to deal with matters of security in specific terms on the Floor of the House.
Mr. Norman Fowler: I was asking the hon. Gentleman about three specific proposals in the IATA eight-point plan on the employment of uniformed and armed officers. I accept that one does not want to discuss security questions on the Floor of the House, but as the whole point of the proposal is to have police obviously armed I do not think that the hon. Gentleman has given a full explanation or answer. All I want to know is whether the Government are considering proposals in that regard.
Mr. Davis: We are, of course, considering recommendations that are made after considered judgment. I have already indicated a number of recommendations that were implemented before they were made by IATA. For example, there is an armed presence at London Airport as far as the police are concerned. We have no intention of abandoning that situation.
The hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield referred to the police strength which was to be deployed at London Airport and the undermanning of the Metropolitan Police in general. He will forgive me if I as a junior Minister in the Department of Trade do not become very much involved and do not trespass upon the jurisdiction of my hon. Friend in matters involving the undermanning of the Metropolitan Police. Nor do I feel that it would be appropriate for me to become engaged, as the hon. Gentleman invited me rather provocatively to do, in questions concerning police pay. He will recognise that these are matters which the Pay Board is considering. I am surprised that he referred to police pay in such circumstances.
Of course, these matters cannot be considered in isolation from all sorts of difficulties and problems that relate to pay in general terms. The hon. Gentleman said that the Metropolitan Police were overstretched. He is right about

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that. It is true that they have to deal with problems of terrorism as well as general crime, smuggling and other matters. When the Metropolitan Police take over responsibility for London Airport, as I feel confident they will with the support of the House, there are certain matters that they will have to consider. No doubt they will report to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department and he will consider the situation. It would be premature for me to make any judgment tonight about that.
The hon. Gentleman asked some questions about the powers of search and arrest. They were also referred to by his hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Mr. Lane). The hon. Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit) twitted me about my passion for civil liberties. I assure him that that passion has not abated because I have taken office. I care as much for civil liberties now as ever I did in the past. The Bill is doing no more than provide, as my hon. Friend said at the outset, the Metropolitan Police with precisely the same powers as were enjoyed by the BAAC. It is right that that should be the case. It would be futile if the Metropolitan Police were to go in and not be able to enjoy those powers.
The hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield then asked a question which was raised, for example, by the hon. Member for Chingford and my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Huckfield) about what is to happen to the rest of the BAAC. Some people described it somewhat inelegantly as a rump. We have no intention of leaving the situation in limbo. It would, however, have been impossible to have designated other airports at this stage. To do so would have meant that we would have had to engage in long and somewhat arduous consultations with a whole variety of authorities, which would have meant the postponement of the Bill. I cannot believe that that is something that; the hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield would have elected to do.
I recognise that there is a real problem which must be dealt with, and it will be dealt with as humanely and realistically as possible. It cannot be that a group of some 80 people can be a viable
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entity in the long term. They would have no real opportunity for a career structure, and we recognise that there has to be consultation with police authorities and the British Airports Authority. I have had long discussions with the authority about this matter and this is part of a continuing procedure. The power of designation has to be a matter for Parliament after these discussions have taken place. It would be wrong for us to say "We are prepared to designate generally. Give us the power and you will have no opportunity, apart from Question Time, to question any decisions that are made." We say that a right must be reserved to Parliament to say whether a decision which we are making is justified in the circumstances. This matter has been carefully considered by my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary.
Police regulations will be amended so that BAAC service may count for pay, promotion and annual leave purposes. These are matters in the first instance for the commissioner to consider. He is now doing that in the light of his earlier undertakings that those who transfer will have security of tenure at Heathrow, will not be required to move their place of residence, will automatically assume the entitlements and promotion opportunities available to all metropolitan officers, and will be able to make themselves available for transfer within the force if they wish to do so. We hope that members of the BAAC will have no hesitation in accepting the situation.
Mr. Tebbit: The Minister rightly says that if a designation order is to be made it must be laid before the House so that the House may debate it. What gives us some concern is the way in which, under the Bill, we cannot debate the fact that a designation order has not been made. The worry I am putting to the hon. Gentleman is that there appears to be no way in which we can raise that matter.
Mr. Davis: The hon. Gentleman must look at the Bill again; it is a point which he is entitled to raise in Committee. My understanding is that one can do both those things. If I am wrong, I have no doubt that the hon. Gentleman will not be slow to criticise me, as he has done in the past on numerous occasions.

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I turn to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. Sandelson). I do not want to enter into any criticism of BAAC. I do not think that would be helpful and I think that by and large over the years it has done a good job. There are criticisms that can be made of any police force—as my hon. Friend, who is a barrister, and I as a solicitor, know only too well. As with any force the majority of its members, perhaps with the exception of black sheep who inevitably are to be found in any organisation, carry out a difficult and sometimes thankless job, sometimes in most arduous conditions. I do not think the BAAC is an exception to that rule.
My hon. Friend rightly said that the decision should be supported by the work force at Heathrow. That was echoed by my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton. He was anxious that industrial relations should not be impaired by the steps taken in the Bill. He pointed out how necessary it was for there to be adequate consultative machinery involving the work force, the management and the police.
I wish to refer to a number of facts. On Sunday 28th April, immediately before the public announcement, I met John Cousins, the chairman of the joint consultative group, and I believe that I did a great deal to assure him that the anxieties which had been expressed were misplaced. I was anxious to point out, because this is a sensitive area, that the interests of the members of the unions would be safeguarded. I think that when he went away he was satisfied, though I do not claim to have dispelled all his anxieties.
Since then there have been meetings between trade unions and the Chairman of the BAA and Sir Robert Mark. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade will be meeting the unions shortly. Sir Robert Mark held a meeting to explain his policies and intentions on 15th May with the staff side representatives on the joint council.
In the announcement by Sir Robert Mark of the appointment of Commander Payne as commander-designate of the Heathrow force, he gave an assurance that continued trade union participation in the Crime Prevention Committee would be welcome. Commander Payne has also participated alongside the present
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BAAC Chief Constable in regular joint meetings between management and unions on these matters.
In particular, one of Commander Payne's first appointments has been a superintendent for industrial and commercial relations who will have prime responsibility for the continuing smooth working of the new organisation in its relations with the unions. That appointment is comparable to the rôle that so many police officers play in community relations in many of the London boroughs. I hope that that evidences the bona fides not only of the Government but of the police too. I hope that it will help dispel the anxieties which may have arisen.
There are no additional powers given to the Metropolitan Police over and above those given to the BAAC. I can see no reason which supports the suggestion that what is happening will impinge on the legitimate rights of the employee.
I come to the speech of the hon. Member for Chingford. I do not often agree with him but I concede his expertise on this subject. I suppose I ought not to begrudge him it on this occasion because he gave us general support, although that was a little grudging. I ought not to object if he wants to do a little political whistling in the dark to keep his spirits up. I think I shall be here in November, December, and January—until the Prime Minister thinks that I have served my purpose.
The major crimes to which the hon. Member referred, pilfering in particular, are not matters in respect of which anyone has capitulated. I do not think it is helpful to give that impression. Heathrow does not suffer from this form of crime any more than other international airports. The hon. Member went on to say that he hoped that the division at Heathrow would not be used for ancillary purposes. I have no evidence to suggest that it will be. I am sure that his observations will be borne in mind by the Metropolitan Police. He went on to suggest that at times the airport would be over-policed. The cost of policing was explained by my hon. Friend. It is a complex matter and the hon. Member can raise the subject again in Committee if he wishes.
I have dealt with most of the points made by my hon. Friend the Member

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for Nuneaton on the need to bring in the Metropolitan Police. I emphasise that transfers will be undertaken with humanity, understanding and consultation. It is unfair to compare the situation here with that of other large industrial complexes, because it is exacerbated by terrorism.
On private security organisations, I thought that both my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton and the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) cribbed the speech I made on the Protection of Aircraft Bill when, quoting from the New Law Journal, I said:
"Security firms have become big business and have established an immunity which is incompatible with the rights of the individual. It is time they were cut down to size."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 11th July 1973: Vol 859. c. 1668.]
I still take that view.
For that reason, soon after I became Under-Secretary of State my right hon. Friend and I decided to ask the Department to carry out an investigation into the rôle of private security firms in searching passengers and baggage at airports. The report has now been presented to me. It will not be for publication because it relates to security matters which we cannot divulge, but we are looking closely at the observations contained in the report. I see no reason to change my view that there should be a gradual phasing out of private security firms from what is essentially a public domain. But there are problems here which it would be folly to ignore. We have to determine which options are open to us out of a number of options that may be available.
This is not an area in which the police should undertake the searching. We shall have to devise some other means of dealing with it. I cannot promise that this can be dealt with with great rapidity because the most important area of consultation must be with the Metropolitan Police, and I do not want to prejudge their views. I am not happy about the rôle of the private security firms in this respect. I would wish them no longer to fulfil that duty of grounds of accountability, training, selection and so on.
The hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed went on to speak of the division of responsibility between the Department of Trade and the Home Office. That is
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what the Bill is about. It is to secure unity of command at Heathrow. There will still be a separate rôle for the Department of Trade in that it will still give guidance on a number of matters in which it has expertise, and that works satisfactorily. The essential reason for the change is to secure unity of command at Heathrow. We shall take into account what the hon. Gentleman said about unlicensed airfields elsewhere, which is a matter we keep under constant surveillance.
The hon. Member for Esher (Mr. Mather) had an overwhelming, compulsion, as he frequently does, to denigrate trade unions. That has not been of assistance in the debate. What he said about militancy at Heathrow naturally—coming from him—was exaggerated. To speak in the way he did does nothing to promote a more peaceful atmosphere. I am not sure that he really wants it.
We are fully aware of the escalation of terrorism, as I have been at pains to point out. I do not propose to enter into the argument about the death penalty, for which the hon. Member has long campaigned. Suffice it to say that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my right hon. the Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and I all take the view that the imposition of the death penalty is totally unacceptable and would in this context provoke more problems than it would resolve.
The hon. Member for Cambridge asked about the position at Belfast, including whether the powers of search were sufficient. We believe them to be, but we review the position constantly. Searching there falls into two broad categories. The first is in respect of anti-IRA violence; the second is in respect of anti-hijacking measures. We believe that it is done reasonably in very difficult circumstances.
It is difficult for me to embark on an explanation of the methods employed because that would give the game away, so I hope that the hon. Gentleman will accept my assurance that this is a matter which the Government examine constantly. If he or any of his hon. Friends feels that there is any laxity, no doubt they will inform us. We are very anxious

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to listen constantly to any reasonable proposals to make the system work better.
Mr. Lane: I raised the question of Northern Ireland in a rather broader context and not simply that of searching. I urged the Government not to overlook the position in Northern Ireland in the wider sense of taking over designation generally, not to confine themselves to Heathrow or other BAA airports but to include Northern Ireland as well.
Mr. Davis: I give the hon. Gentleman that assurance.
I am sorry if I have been rather longer than I intended but a wide variety of points were raised and on a matter of this importance I thought that they should be answered. I hope that I have done so, if not to everyone's satisfaction at least as fully as is reasonable in the circumstances.
I believe that the Bill will enhance the efficiency of crime prevention at Heathrow. I believe that it will make a major contribution towards the extirpation of this mad, demonic activity on the part of terrorists and saboteurs, with their total unconcern for human life and total recklessness of the consequences of their abominable and cowardly deeds. For these reasons I commend the Bill to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 40 (Committal of Bills).

POLICING OF AIRPORTS BILL

  POLICING OF AIRPORTS [MONEY]
  Queen's Recommendation having been signified—
  Resolved,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make provision for enabling the policing of any airport designated for that purpose to be undertaken by the police force for the area in which it is wholly or mainly situated, it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament of any sums required by the Secretary of State for making payments to the authority managing any such airport in respect of expenses incurred by it under or by virtue of any provisions of that Act.—[Dr. Summerskill]

STATUTE LAW REPEALS BILL [LORDS]
Order for Second Reading read.
12.18 a.m.
The Solicitor-General (Mr. Peter Archer): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
This is a further Bill in the series initiated by the Law Commission in pursuance of its duty under the Law Commissions Act 1965 to prepare and submit comprehensive programmes of consolidation and statute law revision. I do not propose to embark on a detailed exposition of its contents since it was debated in another place on 4th April and it is the successor of a similar Bill which was proceeding at the time of the dissolution in February.
Suffice it to say that the Bill consists of four clauses and a schedule. The schedule contains the proposed repeals. Clause 1 says that the provisions in the schedule are repealed. Clause 3 states the parts of the United Kingdom to which the Bill extends. Clause 4 recites the short title. Clause 2 deals with the situation arising from repeal of the Industrial Assurance and Friendly Societies (Emergency Protection from Forfeiture) Act 1940, passed during the war to protect those whose policies were in default because of war conditions. It will not save any further policies, but there are some policies still in existence which had previously been saved by that Act and Clause 2 will have relevance to them. Clause 2 in fact simply re-enacts them.
It remains only to pay tribute to the part played in this process by three bodies. The first is the Law Commissioners, who were appointed to shoulder the burden of considering what law reforms were necessary in England and Wales and in Scotland. They have undertaken the consideration of many important subjects for law reform and in addition they are subjecting the statute book to a major revision and spring-clean. I am sure the House will agree that they are to be congratulated on their energy and assiduity in undertaking this task.
Second, there is the Joint Committee on Consolidation. Until recently I was myself a member of that Committee, so I

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was not then in a position to pay tribute to its activities.
"How shall we extol thee, who are born of thee?"
The truth is that the Committee does the thankless and unexciting work of subjecting proposals to a detailed scrutiny which otherwise would fall upon the House as a whole, and possibly at a late hour. Under the chairmanship of Lord Simon, the Committee has performed that task with devotion and diligence.
Third, I should pay tribute to the draftsmen. To their other burdens is added that of undertaking the implementation of the work of the Law Commission. This they have fulfilled in this instance with their usual care and skill.
The Bill is a modest step in the direction of making the statute book less lengthy, more manageable and, one hopes, ultimately more readily intelligible.
12.22 a.m.
Mr. David Waddington: The Opposition congratulate the two Law Commissions on the completion of yet another exercise in removing obsolete matter from the statute book. It is interesting to note that although some of the enactments to be repealed are ancient—incidentally, it seems a pity that the Deposition of Ministers Act 1592 has to go, whatever it did—many of them are of comparatively recent date, which illustrates the fact that this part of the Commission's work will never end but is a continuing process.
As far as I can see there is nothing in the Bill which requires lengthy discussion tonight, and the Government have been sensible in following a practice initiated by the previous administration in providing for all stages of the Bill to be taken on one night. As a result of this new practice, it is perhaps unnecessary to explore means of dealing with measures of this kind other than on the Floor of the House, because no time need be wasted.
I associate myself with the congratulations to the Joint Committee on Consolidation voiced by the Solicitor-General.
Once again, the Opposition welcome the Bill and are happy to facilitate its speedy passage through the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read a Second time.
Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—(Mr. Golding.)
Bill immediately considered in Committee; reported, without amendment.
Motion made, and Question, That the Bill be now read the Third time, put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 56 (Third reading), and agreed to.
Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed, without amendment.

STATUTE LAW REPEALS BILL [LORDS]
  ADJOURNMENT
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Golding.]

LOUTH (BYPASS)
12.25 a.m.
Mr. Jeffrey Archer: I am pleased that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, are in the chair. You will know that your appointment gave me great delight and that I have enjoyed watching you in the Chair since.
I apologise to the Under-Secretary of State for the late hour at which I rise to speak on this most important subject, but the fault does not lie on my shoulders. In fact, I took particular trouble to read through the list of names and the times of speeches. With the exception of the Solicitor-General, most hon. Gentlemen on the Government side spoke for 20 minutes when they should have taken 10 minutes and the Front Bench speakers took 30 minutes when they should have taken 15 minutes. Although I apologise to the hon. Gentleman, I should again point out that the blame does not totally rest on the Opposition benches.
The matter that I wish to bring to the attention of the House concerns a small but beautiful town called Louth. My constituency covers 300 square miles, but it is the small town of Louth in the centre of it to which I wish to call attention. The name of my constituency is, of course, the name of that small town—Louth. It is in many ways anomalous because only one-twenty-fifth of my constituents live in the town. Nevertheless it is a market town of some considerable beauty and historic interest and importance.

1173
The Under-Secretary will know that the views of my constituents have been expressed to the Department very clearly over the three years that I have had the privilege to represent them. Equally he will know that the late Under-Secretary of State, using the word "late" in its corrective sense, because I have no doubt that Mr. Keith Speed who had the privilege of holding that office will return not only to the House but to office on those benches in the near future—of course, it is important that in this interim stage the hon. Gentleman should carry on where Mr. Speed left off—paid my constituents the courtesy of visiting the constituency last year. We were able to show him that that small town has a very narrow road going through its centre. To the north is Immingham, now world famous for its oil refineries and its energy complex, and the vast lorries and tankers that leave Immingham charge down the country lanes to the small town of Louth. When they arrive they are unable to pass each other because the main road is so narrow.
On top of that we have adjacent to the main road one of the most beautiful churches in England. Some people, including Lord Boyle, have described it as a cathedral. It is without exception one of the most beautiful churches in England. Architecturally it has been agreed—indeed the rector, Mr. Michael Adey, has pointed out to me—that from tests which have been made there is now reason to fear that the foundations of the church are becoming less secure because of those vast lorries rumbling by its side day after day.
Therefore, we asked the former Under-Secretary, Mr. Keith Speed, to come up to see the road, the church and the town, and to agree that a bypass should be put into the programme immediately. Mr. Speed and his advisers pointed out that they were giving special treatment to the 50 most historic towns in England, and they agreed privately—I am sure the hon. Gentleman will find that his Department backed me up on this matter—that a mistake had been made in not including Louth in those 50 towns. Indeed, when such places as Broadway, Moreton-in-theMarsh and Malmesbury were mentioned I became conscious, as did Mr. Speed and his advisers, that we should have been not in the first 50 but in the first 10.
1174
I realise that these are hard times in which to ask for money, and I realise too that it is the job of the Under-Secretary and his Department to make cutbacks. Nevertheless, the only thing that I ask the hon. Gentleman to do tonight is to make a two-minute speech—not even to take the full 15 minutes or more which he could have. I know that he is a compassionate man, and I ask him to rise at the Dispatch Box and say "Yes. It is still in the programme and we will allow it". He need say nothing more. We need no dramatics from the hon. Gentleman nor any great important speech. The short statement will be enough for my constituents, and they will be delighted.
I remind the Minister that I have the privilege of having the constituency next to his right hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland), and I am sure he would support me in everything I say today. I should not want to threaten the Under-Secretary, but in the previous Parliament I called for three resignations when I was unhappy with speeches from the Front Bench and all three men were promoted within two weeks. Therefore, if the hon. Gentleman falls into line I am sure that he will become Minister of State in no time at all.
Louth is a small and beautiful town which is being hindered and damaged by heavy traffic. A bypass should have been allocated to this small area and built many years ago. I ask the Under-Secretary to say that it is in the programme, that it will stay in it and that none of the cuts made by the previous Government and which have had to be confirmed by the present Government will keep it out.
12.32 a.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Neil Carmichael): I am sure that the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Archer) need not apologise for keeping the House up until this late hour. Adjournment debates on transport matters in particular tend to come on rather late.
I have not had the pleasure of visiting Louth, and I cannot promise to visit the town because it is not included in my outline tour of visits.
Mr. Jeffrey Archer: May I say that we should treat the hon. Gentleman like the centurion in St. Mark. The hon. Gentleman need not come to Louth. All

1175
he needs to do is to give the order that the bypass will be built. That will be enough for us. We know his power, and we shall accept that.
Mr. Carmichael: The hon. Member is too kind. There are, unfortunately, a large number of hon. Members who have made similar offers to me to visit their areas with the promise of being royally entertained, but life is not that simple.
This evening's debate is by no means the first occasion upon which the hon. Member has intervened with the aim of ensuring that a Louth bypass road should be provided. He has taken this matter up in the past by correspondence, by deputation and by Questions in the House. In raising the matter again in this evening's debate he has accordingly reflected the anxiety of the people of Louth that the idea of a bypass should not be shelved.
Let me say at once that I understand and sympathise with their anxiety. The pattern of roads in rural areas grew up to meet local needs of the villages and towns they contained. Traffic such as we encounter today, and the long-distance journeys which are now commonplace, have imposed demands for which the old roads were not designed.
In Louth we have a historic market town standing astride the A16 running from north to south, at the junction with the A157 to the east and west and with the A153 joining in from the south-west for good measure. At least one narrow stretch of road is virtually axiomatic in a town of this sort, together with number of buildings of architectural or historic importance, often predictably along the main traffic route. Here are the basic ingredients for a conflict between modern traffic and an urban environment.
Those are the roots of the problem in bald terms. Looking a little deeper we find that Louth, with its Georgian and Regency buildings, has, as the hon. Member said, been selected by the Council for British Archaeology for inclusion in its list of 100 or so historic towns. We find, as the hon. Member said, the parish church of St. James, described by Pevsner as
"one of the most majestic of English parish churches",
1176
with its perfect perpendicular steeple, set in the midst of the town centre road network.
I need elaborate no further on the situation described most eloquently by the hon. Member. The possible risks to this five-centuries-old church, and to other listed buildings of lesser eminence, from the proximity to modern traffic cannot fail to be of concern; nor is there significant doubt about the means by which that concern could be allayed. A bypass of Louth is the only convincing means which has been put forward for relieving traffic pressure in the Louth town centre, and as long ago as 1963 a diagrammatic line for such a bypass was evolved and has since been protected.
That does not, however, import, as I am sure the hon. Member realises, that the construction of a Louth bypass is imminent. As he will no doubt recall, in reply to a Question which he asked in the House on 29th March 1973 my predecessor, Mr. Keith Speed, announced the addition of the Louth bypass to the principal road preparation list. This step enables development of a scheme to proceed to the point of publication of draft proposals for public discussion. Construction follows only after the necessary statutory procedures have been completed. In the case of the Louth bypass detailed plans and the statutory procedures have yet to come.
It is only proper that I should say a word about the problems which a Louth bypass scheme has to surmount before it could relieve the traffic situation in the town. One of these is the opposition which may be encountered when trying to settle an acceptable route for a bypass. The countryside to the west of Louth is very attractive and the risk of objection to the requisite statutory orders cannot be ignored. I do not wish to labour this point, far less to put into the mouths of potential objectors arguments with which to disable any scheme which may come forward. As I am sure the hon. Member will accept, however, it is much easier to visualise the benefit which may attend removing traffic from one locality than it is to anticipate the reasons which may be advanced against rerouting it through another.
The problems of finance are a further factor which has inevitably to be taken

1177
into account. We shall shortly be receiving from local highway authorities and discussing with them their transport policies and programmes. Towards the end of this year we shall be indicating to them the sums of money they may expect to have at their disposal in the forthcoming financial year. Decisions about the order of priority in which they should carry out their schemes will rest with the councils concerned, and I do not wish to give any impression of anticipating decisions yet to be taken by the Lincolnshire County Council.
In the present economic climate, however, it would be foolish to pretend that any of these decisions will be easy ones. As my right hon. Friend the Minister for Transport has recently indicated, councils will be unwise to base their plans on facile assumptions of greater sums of money being available for these purposes. One of the factors which the Lincolnshire County Council may possibly find troublesome about a bypass for Louth is that while the traffic through the town might well be regarded as heavy when considered from the viewpoint of its environmental impact, when looked at from the viewpoint of the amount of use which would be made by a bypass road it is far from heavy. The decision will be for the county council, but it would be unfair to it to present it as a simple one.
There is one other possibility which the hon. Member has not raised but upon which I should perhaps touch, namely that we might consider providing a bypass for Louth as a trunk road scheme to be financed by the Government instead of leaving it to the Lincolnshire County Council as a principal road scheme.
Here I would refer to the announcement my right hon. Friend the Minister for Transport made in the House on 17th June about future plans for the road programme. As he then indicated, he intends to give priority to schemes which form the first stage of a national network of high-quality roads aimed particularly at getting heavy lorries away from people and the towns and villages in which they live, and which would also meet the other, wider objectives of a national road programme. My right hon. Friend envisaged cornpletion of this first stage of network
1178
by the early 1980s. He indicated his intention to issue a consultative document which will treat his proposals under this head as an essential part of measures to be taken to minimise the impact of the heavy lorry. It would accordingly be inappropriate for me to enter into any detailed discussion of the consultative paper in advance of its publication.
Nevertheless I can say that a bypass for Louth is not among the proposals which I expect to see brought forward as part of the first stage of this network; and the hon. Member may not think me altogether unreasonable if I find some difficulty in accepting the view that we should transfer the scheme to the trunk road programme simply as a manoeuvre to give it higher priority than the local authority would attach to it as a principal road project.
Having said that, I would add that I would certainly be willing to look objectively at whatever arguments there may be for the view that a bypass for Louth, whenever it may come to be constructed, ought to be provided not as a principal road but as a trunk road. The hon. Member will appreciate that if those arguments prevailed the result would be the transfer of the scheme out of the preparation list into the preparation pool; but there would not be an accompanying undertaking that construction would begin at an early date. The Government, no less than the Lincolnshire County Council, would be faced with the problem of priorities, which were referred to in the announcement of 17th June which I mentioned earlier.
The hon. Member will forgive me if I do not this evening attempt to speculate as to the timing of construction in the event of this being accepted as a trunk road scheme rather than a principal road. We must take this one step at a time. What I can say, and I gladly give this assurance, is that if this change of status comes to pass, the matters which have been raised in this evening's debate will be fully considered when we come to the problem of ultimately fixing priorities.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at seventeen minutes to One o'clock.

WALES
  Rural Aid
  Rural Aid
  Agriculture
  Agriculture
  Drainage
  Drainage
  Water Rates
  Water Rates
  Farmers
  Farmers
  Roads
  Roads
  Departmental Functions
  Departmental Functions
  National Health Service (Pay and Conditions)
  National Health Service (Pay and Conditions)
INDUSTRY
  Concorde
  Concorde
  South Yorkshire
  South Yorkshire
  Companies
  Companies
  Companies (Assisted Area Incentives)
  Companies (Assisted Area Incentives)
  Strategic Materials
  Strategic Materials
  Motor Cycles
  Motor Cycles
  Cosmex Corporation (Newport, Mon.)
  Cosmex Corporation (Newport, Mon.)
  Steel Industry Redundancies
  Steel Industry Redundancies
  Cotton
  Cotton
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  North-West Region (Minister's Visit)
  North-West Region (Minister's Visit)
ENERGY
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HOME DEPARTMENT
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  Driving Licences
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NORTHERN IRELAND
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PRICES AND CONSUMER PROTECTION
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SCOTLAND
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  Smelter, Invergordon (Electricity Supplies)
SOCIAL SERVICES
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  Mental Health Services
  Benefits (Mentally Ill Persons)
  Benefits (Mentally Ill Persons)
  Mental Relapse and Community Care
  Mental Relapse and Community Care
  Sickness Benefits (Mentally Ill Persons)
  Sickness Benefits (Mentally Ill Persons)
  Seebohm Report
  Seebohm Report
  Hospitals (Mental Illness)
  Hospitals (Mental Illness)
  Cervical Cytology
  Cervical Cytology
  Nurses (Recruitment)
  Nurses (Recruitment)
  Elderly and Infirm Persons (Home Care)
  Elderly and Infirm Persons (Home Care)
  Midwives
  Midwives
  Playgroups
  Playgroups
  Invalid Vehicles
  Invalid Vehicles
TRADE
  Plutonium (Exports)
  Plutonium (Exports)
  Air Sea Rescue
  Air Sea Rescue
  Concorde
  Concorde
  Food and Metals (Exports)
  Food and Metals (Exports)
  Exporting Companies
  Exporting Companies
  British Overseas Trade Board
  British Overseas Trade Board
  Exports (Government Aid)
  Exports (Government Aid)

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Saint Edmundsbury and Ipswich

CONCORDE: ROUTE PERMISSIONS
LORD THOMAS: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied that sufficient energy and urgency are being displayed in the applications for route permissions for a British-operated Concorde; and how many airports on British Commonwealth air routes have been cleared for commercial operations by Concorde.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRY (LORD BESWICK): My Lords, the Departments concerned are in discussion with the relevant countries. We are making progress, but it is not desirable to specify details of these discussions while negotiations are proceeding.
LORD THOMAS: My Lords, while thanking the Minister for that Answer, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that whereas the French-built Concorde is shuttling across the Atlantic with great speed and regularity, we do not seem to be doing so much with our British-built Concorde? May I further ask him whether notice is being taken of that and action is being formed accordingly?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, in the first place, there is no such thing as the French-built Concorde or the British-built Concorde: they are all Anglo-French machines built jointly, but assembled in the different countries. Of course, one has noted the achievements of those aircraft, including the most remarkable time-keeping achievements, and I am
1130
sure that these will be taken into account by the various countries with whom we are now in discussion.
LORD HARVEY OF PRESTBURY: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that his reply is not at all satisfactory? He is well versed in these matters and, as my noble friend says, the initiative appears to have gone towards the French on these matters. May I ask the noble Lord whether he would agree that it is about time the British Government (whatever their complexion) were more forthright in this matter, because it affects tens of thousands of British workers not to mention British engineering and prestige?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, may I tell the noble Lord, whose knowledge of these matters is also considerable, that I am surprised at his disappointing question. There is no question here of our being behindhand: it is simply that negotiations are taking place. The measurements of the production aircraft as regards noise and emission have not been completed so far as certain of these countries are concerned; and these matters are now considered. I assure the noble Lord that on this aspect of the matter there is no question of the French being in front of us.
LORD HARVEY OF PRESTBURY: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord when either House of Parliament can debate this matter, since a massive amount of British taxpayers' money is involved? Is it not about time that we discussed these matters?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I should be happy to debate this matter this afternoon or to-morrow morning; but it makes no difference to the fact that one needs quite detailed technical negotiations with the various authorities. These negotiations are taking place, and it is not right to say that delay lies with the British side of the discussions.
LORD THOMAS: My Lords, will the noble Lord at least admit that the Concorde which has done this large amount of flying was assembled in France, flies from a French airport in Paris and is flown by French crews?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, if it helps the noble Lord. But there is no question of "admitting". I am not quite sure

1131
what he is getting at. Of course, they have been flown in certain cases by French crews, and in certain cases by British crews. But that is not because of any reluctance on the part of the British authorities here.
LORD SLATER: My Lords, although there has been a considerable amount of criticism ventilated in regard to Concorde, will my noble friend agree that it has received support from certain sectors of the aircraft industry? Will he also agree that, as regards noise and emission, it has become more pronounced in recent months and, indeed, has never been more pronounced than it is at this moment?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, if my noble friend is saying that the nearer we get to success here the more angry and petulant some people get about it, then I agree with him.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: My Lords, is the noble Lord able to say whether the French are having parallel independent negotiations with other countries, or whether the negotiations are joint ones? Secondly, may I ask the noble Lord whether he can bring us up to date as to the decision on Concorde vis-à-via the American airports?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, so far as the recommendations and discussions with the Americans are concerned, this has been a joint Anglo-French operation. In all the discussions so far there have been representatives of the British and of the French. The situation is that they require measurements to be taken of production aircraft. These measurements are being taken and presentation is being made to the New York airport authorities. I am sure the noble Earl will know that, so far as the United States is concerned, the matter is a little more complicated in so far as one has to satisfy both the Federal authorities and the separate New York airport authorities.
LORD WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, will my noble friend agree that this noteworthy performance by Concorde should be acclaimed equally by both countries involved, and that no attempt should be made to claim credit for one particular country in the matter?
LORD BESWICK: I absolutely agree, my Lords. There really could not have been any effort in history in which both France and Britain have worked together more productively than this one. What my noble friend said is absolutely right. May I make it absolutely clear that when I talked about criticism of the aircraft which has existed in the past and which seems to be getting a little more strident now, I was not referring to the two noble Lords who sit opposite.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, my noble friend mentioned noise. Can he give us any information which will indicate that the problem of excessive noise is being overcome?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, the production aircraft is both quieter and cleaner than the prototype aircraft. It is now no more noisy than current aircraft types already operating.
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, as discussions regarding possible routes are in progress, may we now take it that it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to continue with the production of Concorde?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, the House will appreciate the innocence of the noble Earl, while not expecting my innocence to equal his.
LORD AVEBURY: My Lords, the noble Lord said that the production aircraft is cleaner than the pre-production version. Can he say whether this applies not only to the emission of particulate matter but also to emissions of oxides of nitrogen?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, that is so in both cases. But in the latter case the discussions are of course much more complicated than simply saying whether the emissions are less. It is a matter of whether they are of a sufficiently restricted degree and, again, discussions about this are now taking place.

BUSINESS
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, it may be for the convenience of your Lordships if I announce that dinners will be available this evening.
BRITISH TRANSPORT DOCKS BILL
Read 2a, and committed to a Select Committee.
LONDON TRANSPORT BILL
Read 2a, and committed to the Committee on Unopposed Bills.

LORD CHANCELLOR (TENURE OF OFFICE AND DISCHARGE OF ECCLESIASTICAL FUNCTIONS BILL [H.L.]
LORD HAILSHAM OF SAINT MARYLEBONE: My Lords, I understand that no Amendments have been set down to this Bill and that no noble Lord has indicated a wish to move a Manuscript Amendment or to speak in Committee. Therefore, unless any noble Lord objects, I beg to move that the Order of Commitment be discharged.
Moved, That the Order of Commitment be discharged.—(Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

RENT BILL [H.L.]
2.47 p.m.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHEPHERD): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, that the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF LISTOWEL in the Chair.]
Clause 1 [Extension of protection afforded to furnished tenancies]:
BARONESS YOUNG BARONESS YOUNG moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 1, line 19, at end insert—
"and
(bb) determination of fair rents shall be made by Rent Tribunals."
The noble Baroness said: I beg to move the first Amendment to this short
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but highly technical and somewhat complicated Bill. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, will agree that almost every clause in it refers back to the 1968 Rent Act and therefore, by inference, when a tenancy under this Bill becomes a regulated tenancy, as it does under Clause 1, the fair rent will be determined by the rent officer. This is not stated, though it is implied.
In moving this Amendment I do not want to appear in any way critical of rent officers or the work that they have done; but the fact remains that there is no need for one to have any professional qualification or any relevant experience at all to become a rent officer. I have recently heard of two policemen who have been appointed as rent officers. In these circumstances there could be great variation in the calibre and experience of the people appointed. I have no doubt whatever that, over a period of time, they develop an expertise. I do not know whether or not they are issued with any kind of guidance from the Department of the Environment; but if they are, I should be most interested to see a copy of it.
What is needed in this Bill is confidence. Confidence is required, both on the part of those who are to let furnished property and of those who will become tenants of it. Therefore the landlord needs to have the confidence that when he lets furnished property, which will now command a fair rent, the rent will take account of what he is providing. The tenant needs to have confidence that he is getting a fair deal. Furthermore, this Bill adds more work and far more responsibility to rent officers in regard to the valuation of furniture. It seems to me fairer to the landlord and tenant if such valuation is carried out by the rent tribunals. These people are experienced in dealing with such valuations. Rent tribunals generally consist of three people, usually a lawyer, a valuer and a layman, unlike just a single person. I have tried to find out for the benefit of this debate the kind of variation of detail which they will have to consider in determining a fair rent.
Of course, there is a great variety of furnished tenancies. For instance, some furnished tenancies include quite a number of services. I was told of furnished flats which include a service of being

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cleaned every day, or indeed a laundry service. Services will automatically include internal repairs, which are something not done by the landlord of unfurnished property. Also, the landlord will be responsible for all the internal fitments concerning electricity, water heaters, cookers, et cetera. There is the responsibility for plumbing the central heating. When all these internal repairs are being carried out and when internal redecoration is being done—which is what we would want to see done by any good landlord—the property must almost certainly stand empty, or part of it must be empty, in order for the work to be done. Therefore, a furnished flat once again becomes somewhat different from an unfurnished flat. It seems that if the fair rent does not take adequate account of all this detail one can be certain there will be a steady deterioration in the property. The landlord will be unable to do the necessary repairs, which I am sure we would all regard as completely undesirable. Indeed, it has been a matter of criticism, sometimes justified, where repairs have not been done.
The second alternative could well be as a consequence of this: instead of there being furnished flats or houses to let, people would be offered full board and the house would become a kind of cheap hotel. This again is not what people necessarily want, but it could be a consequence. However, my principal reason for moving this Amendment is that a great deal of new work is being added to rent officers. This Bill could lead to a diminution in confidence on the part of those who are to let furnished accommodation. This in its turn could lead to there being less accommodation, with all the consequences that that could have for people seeking it. I feel that this Amendment is one way by which justice could be seen to be done to both parties to the agreement. I beg to move.
2.53 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: I am sorry that the noble Baroness, with her long and notable experience and service in the Department of the Environment, should cast doubt upon the role of the rent officer in referring to possible loss of confidence if these new provisions in this Bill entail duties passing from the rent tribunal to the rent
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officer. The effect of this Amendment would be to leave protected furnished tenancies within the jurisdiction of rent tribunals for rent-fixing purposes, instead of transferring them to the rent assessment service; that is, the rent officer. Even if this proposal were desirable in itself, there would be one serious practical difficulty in the way. Noble Lords will no doubt be aware of a recent decision in the Court of Appeal in the case of Woodward v. Docherty, which has suggested that a number of tenancies which were regarded as furnished may in fact be unfurnished and thus already protected and subject to the jurisdiction of rent officers. In abandoning the distinction between furnished and unfurnished, and putting all protected tenancies within the jurisdiction of the rent assessment service, we are in effect giving statutory recognition to the situation that may have resulted from the Appeal Court decision.
The noble Baroness referred to the competence of rent officers in fixing rent. I should have thought that she would be one of the first to acknowledge that the rent officers over many years, ever since we have had rent legislation, have given a notable service both to the landlord and to the tenant. To the best of my knowledge, I have not seen any criticism of their service. A rent officer requires a degree of expertise and a degree of understanding. When she referred to two police officers, I should not have thought that their experience was something that could not be of great assistance to a rent officer. I am sure the noble Baroness will also remember that the rent assessment service now has a considerable amount of knowledge and expertise behind it. There is a central organisation, certainly in London, where knowledge is accumulated and where meetings are held for the purpose of avoiding variations from one district to another. If there is a question of confidence, there seems to me more advantage in having the rent officer procedure because here there is in fact a court of appeal; there is yet another body to which a decision can be taken, whether it is done on behalf of the tenant or whether it is done on behalf of the landlord. There is an appeal procedure beyond the rent officer, whereas under the rent tribunal system a decision is made and that is the end of it, whether the decision is right or wrong.

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In terms of numbers, the rent officers are a heavily burdened body of officials, but we believe they will be able to take on this added work, particularly in the early stages, as a consequence of the rent freeze. Nevertheless, the Government are undertaking an immediate and most careful consideration of whether the number of rent officers should be increased. We have gone into this matter with the greatest possible care. We think it is right and proper that we should now proceed to the rent officer procedure, and we believe we shall have sufficient numbers of officers with sufficient expertise, built over a long period, to give satisfaction not only to the tenant but also to the landlord—who is just as important as the tenant in this field of legislation in terms of equity.
LORD ROBBINS: Can the noble Lord give some idea of the increase in the number of rent officers necessary under this legislation?
LORD SHEPHERD: It is difficult at this moment to assess the numbers that will be required. We are, however, looking into the matter and if I can give the noble Lord some information on this matter, perhaps at Third Reading, I will do so. I myself did not specifically ask what the new numbers would be, but I have received information that we are looking at the whole problem to see what increase is necessary.
LORD LEATHERLAND: The noble Baroness was rather critical of the fact that two police officers had been appointed as rent officers. Can she tell us what were the ranks of those police officers?
LORD SLATER: I should like more clarification in regard to what determines a rent officer. What are his qualifications, and who determines what they shall be? If I were to take this matter to my wife and asked her opinion, I know she would say that the situation opens the door to criticism in regard to the rent officer who will determine what shall be the rents for furnished lettings, et cetera. I sincerely hope that my noble friend will be in a position to give us an answer as to what really determines how one qualifies to hold this appointment.
LORD SHEPHERD: I am afraid that I thought the position of the rent officer
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was so well-known that this was not an aspect that I myself should determine in detail before coming to this Committee. All I would say to my noble friend is that rent officers have been in existence ever since the last war when the first rent legislation was introduced. I said in my earlier speech that I had never yet heard criticism of the qualifications or the service which the rent officers have provided both to the tenant and to the landlord.
LORD SLATER: I hope that my noble friend will not take objection to what I am going to say in regard to the reply which he has sought to give. Like many other noble Lords attached to this Assembly, I was a member of a local authority prior to coming to your Lordships' House. We appointed rent officers. They were then known as rent collectors and they were appointed to go round these great estates that were built up by direct labour, et cetera. Their purpose and duty was to collect the rent imposed by the local authority.
LORD SHEPHERD: I think that my noble friend must have misunderstood me. The rent officer has got nothing whatsoever to do with the collection of rents. He is an official selected by local authorities. Sometimes I understand that he has some valuation experience. Certainly he has wide experience in the field of housing and his only duty is to decide what is the fair rent of the premises. It has got nothing to do with collection. It is merely an assessment of what is a fair rent both to the landlord and to the tenant.
LORD SLATER: He is going to be an assessor. He will have to assess what shall be the rent of the particular establishment which he has gone out to inspect. He will have to examine and determine what the position shall be. We ought to have this clarified, because as a past local authority man in rural authority development, I shall not be happy about this issue until I can get clarification.
LORD SHEPHERD: If my noble friend will read what I have said, this man is not a rent collector. He is, as my noble friend suggested, a rent assessor. He is an assessor of what is a fair rent on those premises which, over many years, have become involved under legislation on rents.
LORD LEATHERLAND: May I ask whether the noble Baroness is now in a position to answer the question which I put a few minutes ago about the rank of the police officers who are appointed?
3.4 p.m.
BARONESS YOUNG: I am not in a position to give any more details about these particular people, nor do I think that it is necessary to do so in order to support my case. I was not quoting them to criticise them. I have every reason for supposing that they do their job as well as they can. My point in mentioning it at all is one which I hope will answer the questions put by the noble Lord, Lord Slater. Rent officers were introduced under the Rent Act 1965, when the principle of fair rents was introduced. This is a method of calculation and, as Lord Shepherd has explained, they are there to determine what is the fair rent of a property.
Under this Bill the fair rent principle is to he extended from unfurnished to furnished tenancies. It seems to me essential that one should create the right climate in order that both parties will come to an agreement about it. We are all agreed on this principle. The fact is that there are no particular qualifications necessary for being a rent officer. One might think that they ought to be qualified in some way, either by local government experience, or housing experience, or valuation experience, but they are not. I do not know whether they have this code of guidance—the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has not said—but I expect that they have something from the Department of the Environment. There is, therefore, the point that people may not have confidence in them when they are going to have a great deal more work added to what they already have to do. The noble Lord, Lord Robbins, asked a very good question. I was going to ask Lord Shepherd this question myself. Obviously there will be a tremendous amount more work for them to do. One of the criticisms, which I think is a real one, is the length of time which it now takes to get a fair rent assessed. This is a very important point if you are letting property. You do not want to wait an indefinite length of time before you know what the rent will be. I raise this point because one very serious issue is that
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there could be far less property to let. I am moving this Amendment because it is one way of trying to keep the confidence of both parties.
LORD AVEBURY: I am possibly the only Member of your Lordships' House who was on the Standing Committee of the 1965 Rent Bill when, as the noble Baroness has just said, rent officers were first appointed. To the best of my recollection, during the proceedings on that Bill there was no discussion of the point raised by the noble Baroness as to whether rent officers should have any formal qualifications. Probably there were very good reasons for the lack of any discussion on this point. It is hard to see at first sight what those qualifications ought to he. Among the several other headings which she mentioned, the noble Baroness said that perhaps they could be experts in the field of housing or valuation. This illustrates the difficulty. If one were to require some professional qualification, what should it be? Is not a police officer, who may have very considerable experience of dealing with the people in his own area, just as well able to understand the factors set out in the Rent Bill as somebody with a formal training in quantity surveying or some profession of that kind?
The formula in the 1965 Act, incorporated in the 1968 Act which was a consolidation measure, is of a very general nature. It speaks of
"having regard to all the circumstances and in particular to the age, character and locality of the dwelling house and its state of repair".
Anybody with common sense could interpret that formula in the light of what has been done elsewhere. The noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, mentioned that we now have very good machinery for coordination of the findings of rent officers in different parts of the country, and I think that, generally speaking, this has worked quite well. When you look at the legislation and you find that the landlords and tenants are about equal in the volume of their complaints against the system, then it is probable that a reasonable balance has been struck. I am rather surprised that the noble Baroness should have brought this point forward.
Appeal machinery was also provided, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd. If either tenant or landlord

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disagrees with the recommendation of the rent officer, then they can take the matter to a rent assessment committee. If the Conservatives were dissatisfied they did, after all, have three and a half years in which to amend the 1968 Act and to bring forward their proposals on how rent officers should be qualified. The fact that the Conservative Government failed to do this illustrates that there is no substance in the point of the noble Baroness.
LORD ROBBINS: May I add a footnote to what the noble Lord has said, and to what was said by the noble Baroness, Lady Young. I am certainly not out to make any Party point here, but it would be a matter of common agreement that this proposed legislation extends tremendously the area of assessment. The point which I would urge on the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, in which strong feelings of humanity, common sense and so on are concerned, is that a much greater element of subjectivity must enter into valuations where the furnishing and the interior of dwelling places are concerned. It is for that reason that I suspect that the noble Baroness, Lady Young, and some of us who sit on these Benches may feel that it is extremely important to scrutinise every clause of this Bill to see that it does not achieve exactly the reverse of what is intended; namely, to bring about a withdrawal from the market of accommodation which is urgently needed.
LORD SHEPHERD: May I explain to the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, and to the Committee my attitude whenever I am presented with a Bill in Committee. My officials were complaining on Friday because they wondered on which side of the fence I was falling, since automatically my nature is to be in opposition. Therefore, when the brief was put before me I questioned why we should resist the first Amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Young. My instinct was for speed and to accept the first Amendment, because in doing that one makes much progress. In the end I had to be convinced—and I was convinced—that the position that I put earlier was the right one.
First, it is said that rent officers have no experience in dealing with furnished premises. The noble Baroness knows
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that under existing legislation they are already involved, so they have experience. Therefore what they are being asked to do under this legislation is not new. It is true that there is a difficulty in terms of numbers and I was well aware of this difficulty. I do not have a note of the numbers—perhaps I should have—but I will see that the noble Lord has them at a later stage of the Bill. But I acknowledged that we are placing an increased responsibility on this service and, therefore, the service has to be adjusted according to its new responsibilities.
At the beginning I said that there was an advantage not only in using the rent officer procedure. There will now be two tiers both for the benefit of the tenant and the landlord. There will be the direct assessment by the rent officer who will go and look at the premises, but if at any time there is doubt on the part of either the tenant or the landlord then there will be the right of appeal to the rent assessment committee, and I suspect that in fact the rent assessment committee is not very dissimilar from the rent tribunal. Certainly it will have the same kind of professional service available to it as does the rent tribunal; the appointment and employment of valuation experts and the like. I suggest that the real problem is that put by the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, the question of numbers and the availability of the service to do what it is required to do under the Bill when it becomes an Act of Parliament. But I suggest to the Committee that having decided that furnished accommodation should now be treated in a similar way to unfurnished accommodation it would be right and proper to bring it within the normal assessment of a fair rent, and that is what the Bill suggests should be done through the rent officer procedure with its appeal to the rent assessment committee. I recognise the problem of the numbers and I will certainly ensure that the noble Lord. Lord Robbins, has that information at a later stage of the Bill.
LORD POPPLEWELL: Can my noble friend give any indication as to how often the rent assessment committee may meet, and also the rent tribunal?
LORD SHEPHERD: I always understood that these bodies met when the workload so demanded, in a similar way to a court of magistrates.
LORD LEATHERLAND: I regret that the noble Baroness, Lady Young, was unable to reply to the question that I put to her. I also regretted that she used the example of retired police officers to indicate that that type of person was not suitable to act as a rent officer. If the two police officers who have been appointed as rent officers happen to be retired inspectors or superintendents one must accept that they are very competent people indeed. Moreover they would have an intimate knowledge of the living conditions and the circumstances of the people on their particular manor.
I do not want to see every retired police constable made into a rent officer, but when a man has risen through the ranks of a highly disciplined force such as the police force, has passed the requisite examinations to become an inspector or a superintendent, then that man has something. Perhaps I may take a homely example, and I do so in the absence of my noble friend Lord Willis: which of us would object if Sergeant Dixon of Dock Green retired from the force and was then appointed a rent officer? He has an intimate knowledge of everybody in the district in which he operates, and I regretted that the noble Baroness tended to suggest that a retired police officer was not fit to become a rent officer.
LORD SHINWELL: Apart from the submission made by the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, on the matter of numbers—and of course that is a vital issue—the simple issue before the Committee is what are to be the qualifications of these rent officers. Apparently the noble Baroness finds policemen distasteful in this context. That is regrettable; I should have thought she might have had a word of praise for policemen. But let us consider what kind of policemen she had in mind. What information has she about the quality, the character and the period of service of these policemen? She ought not to conceal this information, and we are anxious to be made aware of it. Were the recruits "Bobbies" who had just arrived aged 19, 20 or 21—raw recruits? Were they sergeants or inspectors? Who can tell? This is what we want to know, but since she has raised this issue perhaps she will be kind enough to inform the Committee what in her view are the qualifications required.
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She referred to the matter by implication; she just mentioned the words "members of the rent tribunals", but we can rule them out, because if we are to employ lawyers for a task of this kind it will lead to more expenditure. Besides, I question whether there is a sufficient number of briefless barristers ready to undertake the task. They are really not available. What then is left? The valuers—"Ay, there's the rub". They can estimate whether the decor is worth a certain sum to be injected into the rent of the premises and they can decide whether the furnishings are expensive or inexpensive. But there is something more about the valuers: they are closely associated with the estate agent fraternity. There is a certain element of bias and generally speaking I think they would take the side of the landlord. Of course, if there is a case for the landlord, why should they not take his side?
The noble Baroness comes briefed by the Central Office, or a sub-Central Office, and she puts her case. She has not got the foggiest notion of the kind of expertise that is required; she only indulges in generalisations and that is really not good enough in an important debate of this character. So I pose these questions to the noble Baroness. Who are these two policemen with whom she has made acquaintance? Are they humble or are they superior? We ought to know, and over and above that, will she be kind enough to define, as closely as the circumstances demand, the kind of expertise that is required and the qualifications that are necessary so that we may come to a conclusion about this important matter.
LORD CLITHEROE: Have we not talked enough about this aspect of the matter, which is not really totally relevant to the point we are trying to decide. Whether the illustration given by the noble Baroness was the best that could be found is difficult for anybody to say, but the problem will be to find the people to do this work, and I do not think that anybody on either side of the House has really appreciated how difficult this will be.
LORD HYLTON: I hope that the nob!e Baroness will not press the Amendment. I have every confidence that the rent officers will be able to cope with this

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new volume of work. They have already developed very great expertise. For example, they are able to tell a housing association what will be the rent of a building not yet built, simply by looking at the plans and examining the neighbourhood. Secondly, it will be a very great benefit to the public if there can be one system rather than two for assessing rents. If my noble friend presses her Amendment, I am afraid that I shall not be able to support her.
LORD CUTHEROE: Does the noble Lord appreciate the difference between furnished and unfurnished premises? It is an entirely different problem.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: I am sure that many noble Lords here will groan and say "Here she goes again", but the noble Lord has just said that it is an entirely different problem. How much I agree with him. We have in this context to value a place which is furnished and the quality of the furnishing. I would ask noble Lords here whether if they wanted a new flat which was furnished, they would rely upon their own assessment or their wife's assessment as to the quality of the furnishing which will determine the rent. I can think of nothing better than sending a woman to see some of these flats—a woman, not the policeman we have heard about. I ask the Government to consider this point very seriously. An entirely new aspect of valuation is called for here. Most men could not go into a flat and say, "The quality of those curtains is good", or "bad". The quality of the carpets is good, or bad. They are "fitted" or "not fitted", and so on. Therefore I ask the Government, instead of showing the prejudice that they usually show in regard to the employment of women in every sphere, to recognise that this is essentially a woman's job.
BARONESS YOUNG: I should like to thank those noble Lords who have spoken in support of this Amendment. We have listened to some very interesting speeches, including that of the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, whose speeches I always enjoy. If I may make a comment, I think I once said to him in the course of our debate on joining the E.E.C. that he is one of the few Members of this House who speaks like a European, with all the
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gestures, emotionally and with conviction, and it is a shame that he will never have the opportunity of sitting in the European Parliament. Nevertheless, he has led us on a really splendid argument which I believe was totally irrelevant, so he will not be sad if I say that though I enjoyed it I do not wish to follow him all the way. I take this matter—
LORD SHINWELL: Does that mean that the noble Baroness is not going to answer the vital and salient question?
BARONESS YOUNG: I am going to answer all the important points that have been raised. I regard this as a very serious issue. We are not, if I may say so to the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, trying to look into people's houses in order to know about their homes and the sort of people they are. We are asking someone to make an assessment of the rent.
LORD LEATHERLAND: How can you decide how much a flat is worth if you do not look inside it?
BARONESS YOUNG: If I might complete my argument, we are trying to assess a fair rent for furnished accommodation. The noble Lord might look at the Acts of Parliament which show what determines a fair rent. Perhaps I may read a summary of them:
"To have regard to all the circumstances other than personal circumstances, and particularly age, character and locality of a dwelling and its state of repair",
which the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, quoted, and something will now have to be added for the furnishing and, I hope. the services. This is a question of an agreement which has to be reached between the landlord and the tenant. The point I was making was that both parties must believe that justice will be done. The rent officer is a single person. whereas the rent tribunal consists of three people sitting together and usually it is three I named—the lawyer, the valuer and the layman. Therefore you are not relying on one individual to do this job. I hope that that indicates the kind of qualifications which I think would be very helpful.
I entirely agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill. I cannot at all see why women should not be employed, and I should welcome the employment of more women to do this job.

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It would be very helpful to know, and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, when he replies to the debate, will tell us what preparations the Government have made to meet this very real problem, perhaps by additional guidance to rent officers, by the employment of a greater number, and possibly by considering the kind of qualifications that a rent officer ought to have. If he can give us some of this information he may well allay fears which exist at the present time and which my Amendment is designed to meet.
LORD SHEPHERD: I certainly wish to be helpful to the noble Baroness. In order that we can have a full understanding of what a rent officer is, perhaps we can arrange for a Question, and I will then set out by Written Answer all the qualifications that one would wish to see within the rent officer procedure. My understanding is that the basic requirement here is general sympathy, general understanding and a sensible approach. The noble Baroness spelt out some of the benefits and advantages of the rent tribunal and referred to the professional expertise that is available. The noble Baroness did not acknowledge—and I hope she will now do so—that under the procedure in this Bill this will be available on appeal, where there is a sense of grievance either by the tenant or by the landlord about a rent officer's assessment. This appeal is not available under the rent tribunal procedure. In reply to my noble friend Lady Summerskill, I would say that women are of course employed in this service. I do not have the figures for England but I will get them. But, as usual, the Scots are more forthcoming with their information and general attitude, and I understand that 10 per cent. of the rent officers in Scotland are women.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: Too little!
LORD SHEPHERD: Too little maybe, but I expect a decided advance on what we will find are the English figures. I take the point which my noble friend has put, that this is a field in which women undoubtedly have a role to play. The reason they do not play it may not necessarily be the attitude of local authorities, but the decision of the women
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themselves not to come forward for this form of work. I hope the noble Baroness will feel satisfied with this debate. The Government are very conscious of the importance of this service. We feel that the procedure outlined in the Bill with, first, the assessment and, secondly. the appeal, has all the advantages. In particular, as the noble Lord opposite has said we are here bringing furnished tenancies under the general cover of legislation that has stood the test of time and I do not think anyone would question the service which rent officers have provided to this country since 1965.
BARONESS YOUNG: I should not like to pretend that I am completely satisfied by that answer. But I shall read very carefully what the noble Lord has said, and if I am still not satisfied I shall put down another Amendment at Report stage. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
3.30 p.m.
LORD GIFFORD LORD GIFFORD moved Amendment No. 2:
Page 2, line 23, at end insert—
"(e) in section 2(3) of the Rent Act, before the word 'attendance' in each place where it appears there shall be inserted the words 'board or'."
The noble Lord said: I beg to move Amendment No. 2. Before turning to the specific point of the Amendment may I, by way of preface to this and a number of other Amendments which stand in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Melchett, indicate to the Committee in essence what we have in mind by moving this afternoon quite a selection of Amendments. We do not in any sense wish to obstruct or delay the passage of this very important Bill through this House. Indeed, it is absolutely essential that the Bill passes through Parliament at the earliest possible moment so that the protection which it envisages can become secure. But for that reason, it might be of advantage if points which may have substance are raised here so that full time for consideration is available to the Government.
A great number of these Amendments deal with what we see as possible loopholes in the Bill or in the Rent Acts, as

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they will be, as a whole. This Bill takes away from unscrupulous landlords the one particularly convenient device which was available to them to let properties to tenants whom they could remove virtually at will, with only a limited amount of time lag being given by the rent tribunal. Now that that convenient method is being removed, there is absolutely no doubt that the landlords of the kind I have in mind, who make profits by letting in the poorer inner areas of cities, will be scrutinising, or their advisers will be, the Rent Acts and the Bill to see what kind of loopholes still remain. Every possible device will be employed, and it is our belief that the Bill, while in essence a very good one, does leave the way clear in a number of cases for unscrupulous landlords to exploit and thus to undermine the protection which the Bill seeks to give.
That is the case with regard to the first Amendment which I move. It concerns the provision of board, and the provision is this. Under Section 2 of the Rent Act as it stands at present, tenancies which are furnished are not protected—this, of course, will be changed—provided that the amount of furniture is substantial. Tenancies where the rent contains an element of payment for attendance are not protected, provided again that the element of attendance is substantial. Tenancies where the rent contains an element of board are not protected; but there is no requirement that the element of board should be substantial, and I would wish to ask, "Why not?" This is something which was given attention by the Francis Committee, who, on page 157 of their Report, said this:
"The reason for this omission is not apparent. The result is that there is no specific statutory requirement, in relation to protected tenancies, that in order to exempt a tenancy from protection, the value of the board to the tenant should form a substantial proportion of the whole rent. We are inclined to think that there should he such a requirement, although, presumably, it is rare for board to be provided for unfurnished tenants, and the word 'board' in itself may well import an element of substantiality."
If that Committee thought that board would necessarily have to be substantial in order to qualify as board, I think they were wrong. The leading textbook of Mr. Justice Megarry says at page 141 that
"the majority view of the courts is that the term is not confined to full board, but, subject to the de minimus rule, extends to any board."
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I have already been made aware of cases where a modicum of board—a few tea bags, a few pints of milk, or half a dozen eggs a week—is being provided by landlords, its value being only a small amount of the rent. It seems to me that so long as some board of that nature—a few cheap breakfast articles—is provided, therby the tenancy is not a protected one.
I would ask that the Amendment be accepted, for what it does is to import into the Act the requirement of substantiality. That will cover, of course, and exempt from protection the genuine boarding house and the genuine provision of bed and breakfast, because obviously the provision of a breakfast is likely to amount to 10 per cent. or 15 per cent. at least of the element of rent, and thus would be regarded by the courts as being substantial. But it is easy to foresee that false board, the board which the tenant does not want and which consists of the provision even of vending machines for coffee, is the sort of dodge which the Committee would not wish landlords to get away with. I beg to move.
3.37 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: Once again, this was a difficult matter to consider and to decide upon whether or not one should resist the Amendment. In the end I came to the view, with reluctance, that one would need to advise the Committee that this Amendment should be resisted. The question of board is particularly difficult. The only piece of case law one can fall back on occurred in 1923, when the Court of Appeal in Wilkes v. Goodwin was considering the first proviso to Section 12(2) of the Increase of Rent, etc. Act 1920, from the provisions of which Section 2(1)(b) of the Act of 1968 is derived, and it decided by a majority that partial board was sufficient to exclude the Act. This decision appears to have stood unchallenged for just over half a century. I think it was on this question that Sir Robert Megarry on The Rent Acts, which my noble friend Lord Gifford referred to, said that
"the dividing line appears to fall between the early morning cup of tea on the one hand and 'bed and breakfast' on the other".
It was suggested in the newspaper the other day that perhaps the installation of vending machines in accommodation might provide exclusion. My advice is that we do not think for a moment that

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in the event of a landlord incurring expenditure on such provision and maintenance in order to evade the Act, the courts would hold that the sale of food by vending machines would in fact constitute "board".
In our view, and resting on the previous decision, "board" clearly means a meal, even if not a very substantial meal, served by the landlord to the tenant. I have some sympathy with the approach of my noble friends Lord Gifford and Lord Melchett in seeking to tighten up the Bill, perhaps giving more protection to the tenant. But I would suggest to my noble friend, as I will on later Amendments, that we need to seek a balance of what is right in terms of the tenant, the necessary protection we want to give to him, without making the legislation so tight that it is so much to the disadvantage of, or such a restriction on, a landlord that the number of furnished tenancies might be reduced.
I have looked at this matter. If I may say so, this is a matter more easily discussed across a table than across the Floor of your Lordships' House. If my noble friend is still dissatisfied with what I have put to him this afternoon, I would be very ready to have further consultation with him. However, I must say to the Committee that I am advised that if we were to accept this Amendment, we are unlikely to add to the protections which already exist by court decision, because it is in the end for the courts to decide what is fair board. As I say, I am quite willing to discuss this with my noble friend, but my advice to the Committee is that we should not accept this Amendment.
LORD HALE: The football correspondent of The Times this morning felicitously recalled Jerome K. Jerome's story of Three Men in a Boat, finding himself, after very hard rowing for a very considerable number of hours, looking up and seeing the same bridge over his head as when he started to row. I have precisely that feeling. I have been through this before; I have been through this more than once. We got up in another place and said: "We must include the furnished lodging, because if you do not, a little bit of furniture will be added and the protection you are now proposing to give will be destroyed"—and everybody knows that that has happened. Now we
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say: "But you must exclude the exemptions of board because everybody knows how simple it is to avoid it".
I had not intended to intervene, because the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, put this so clearly and so fully that it is almost an impertinence to add anything from my inexperience of recent conditions. There are times when I listen to the noble Lord at the Box making exceedingly able speeches and very generous speeches and showing his own likeability, but he does run occasionally to the superlative. I did not even intervene when he said he had never heard anyone criticise a rent officer and that really he could hardly imagine such a possibility. Well, with all fairness to rent officers, somebody is bound to be dissatisfied with nearly every decision they make, however good they are. In Oldham they used to express it, and they are not really people who complain, they are people who submit. There is the lady who comes in and says: "They told me to go along and see the rent officer to get my rent reduced because it is excessive, and he has put it up". She smiles sweetly and says, "You know, Mr. Hale, it does not look as if we can win nohow". Many people feel like that. Of course, in places like that a lot of people do not even go to see the rent officer; they think it is the law, or they do not know what the law is, and they are anxious not to trouble anybody.
There is one point I want to make which I do not think the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, made. I do not regard landlords as a class with the slightest hostility. I have been a tenant myself; I have been a landlord myself, at a peppercorn rent. Noble Lords sometimes complain that there is a certain bias against landlords on these Benches—and indeed to a certain extent there is a touch of truth in the fact that of course we are biased in favour of those who cannot argue for themselves, who, when they make a contract, make it under the duress of necessity or indeed under the duress of law. Nowadays if the average decent landlord lets a property, he thinks it is wiser to have a written agreement and he buys a printed agreement. The printed agreement, of course, will be revised the day after this Bill passes, because the printed agreements are certainly made for landlords; they are not

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made for tenants. They are made to sell to the landlords, and highly respectable law stationers would think themselves negligent if they did not supply their customers' needs.
The noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal says very fairly that "board" is not easy to define. When I first came to London on being elected to Parliament, my home remained in Leicestershire for a year or two until I could dispose of it and find out whether I had a reasonable hope of re-election before burning all my boats. I was found accommodation somewhere near Petit France; I forget the name of the street. I was provided with a furnished bedroom, a cup of tea in the morning, and, after a little discussion with the charming lady who cleaned the rooms and made the beds and did all she could, a couple of slices of bread and butter specially provided for us. It was an extremely generous letting; it was a friendly letting; it belonged to a trade union, I think connected with the Post Office although I am not sure. I got it through the intervention of another Labour Member of Parliament, and so far as I know I was paying less for it than the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, who was evicted for doing something with a syphon. Clearly the bad landlord who does want to exploit will easily be able to evade this clause; he will have a written agreement to show that he agreed to supply board and that he has supplied board. Thus he can settle the question of the definition. There is still the fact that the tenant is there to get a roof over his head; he does not have much chance to negotiate and he does not have much chance to argue.
I rose really to say that while the Amendment—backed by the gifted names of the noble Lords, Lord Gifford and Lord Melchett, who have obviously looked into this matter with the greatest possible care and speak with a good deal more current experience than I have—demands attention, I want to make this point clear to the noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal. If he talks to Lord Gifford, I shall be most happy that he has done so, but he did seem to assume that this Amendment did not have widespread support and might not command widespread support. I think on these Benches it would command widespread support. I
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appreciate the great difficulty in which the noble Lord is speaking, in view of the Parliamentary system and Parliamentary time, and in view of having produced another amending Bill which amends an amending Bill and corrects a codifying Bill and so on. This makes it quite impossible for me to understand the clauses, but I think I have just enough knowledge of the law to understand them more than most poor tenants in Oldham. I hope the noble Lord will listen to what the noble Lord, Lord Gifford, has to say; he might decide to press the Amendment, but at any rate the discussion should be continuous. I hope some information will be forthcoming in time to put down an Amendment at Report stage if the discussions do not give satisfaction.
LORD MELCHETT: I wonder whether I could obtain clarification from my noble friend Lord Shepherd of what he said in reply to my noble friend Lord Gifford when he moved the Amendment. As I understood it, he was saying that provided the landlord personally supplies a full meal, albeit a fairly small meal, that would be board within the accepted definition, relying on the court case, which, as he said, is now 50 years old. Am I right then in assuming that the Government's view is that where the landlord goes slightly further than putting in a vending machine, and, for example, orders a pint of milk for each of the tenants in his premises and provides a packet of cornflakes each week and half-a-dozen eggs—all of which would involve merely placing an order with the relevant tradesmen and the landlord doing no more than that—that would suffice as a perfectly good breakfast, and that that would be board?
LORD SHEPHERD: May I say to my noble friend Lord Hale that I not only sense what the Opposition are likely to feel sympathetic to; I am perhaps more conscious of what some of my noble friends will be sympathetic to. Therefore, I approached this Amendment with a degree of caution. As I thought I indicated earlier, it is one with which I had some sympathy. There are some difficulties here. Whatever you put into a Bill—and my noble friend Lord Gifford may speak with more authority than I, as he is a barrister—and even if you put

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in the word "substantial", at the end of the day it is for the courts to decide what is meant by "substantial". I can only say to my noble friend Lord Melchett that my advice—and I think it is good advice—is that "board" clearly means a meal. It would not be sufficient to provide a vending machine, or to provide a bowl of milk outside the door for the morning cup of tea. I think that a meal would definitely be required, although not necessarily a substantial meal.
LORD HALE: Would my noble friend allow me to draw on an example of which I have had considerable experience? In order to get a drink after twelve o'clock in London at one time, it had to be served with a meal. I wonder whether he remembers what one of those meals looked like, and how much there was, because they never weighed more than two ounces. The drink was very expensive, and the company was not always very good.
LORD SHEPHERD: Having been deputy chairman of the Erroll Committee on the licensing laws, I am aware of the difficulties of defining a meal within those laws. The advice I have had is that the provision of a vending machine, or something that is quite insubstantial, would not be acceptable by the courts. As I indicated, I should be very happy to pursue this point with my noble friend Lord Gifford. But I should not wish to give him any real belief that we shall be able to meet him, because I think he will recognise that at the end of the day one may have to rest upon the courts to define what is meant by the legislation. Even if the word "substantial", or some similar word, were placed in the legislation, we should still need to fall back on the courts.
3.53 p.m.
LORD SHINWELL: If my noble friend means by his last few words that at Report stage he might find it possible to obtain a stricter definition of what is meant by the provision of a meal, I should be quite satisfied. However, I am bound to say that I wholeheartedly agree with the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Gifford. There are two sides to this question of landlords and tenants of furnished properties. To take an example, there
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are the landlords, who, with a very small financial competence, happen to possess a house with a number of flats and, who, for the purpose of maintaining their financial position, proceed to derive an income from the letting of those premises.
If one reads the advertisements in the evening papers, in particular—I shall not mention which; there is no reason why we should provide them with a gratuitous advertisement—one finds hosts of advertisements which indicate that many furnished properties are let at what are undoubtedly very low rents. I have had information conveyed to me by others who have been able to obtain furnished lettings at very low rents; the landlords and landladies have been most generous, and in some cases surprisingly generous. That is one side of the question. However, as we know—and, again, I refer to the advertisements in the newspapers—there are landlords of a quite different variety. There are the landlords who are in possession of vast properties, flats all over the place. Some of them—I shall not use the word "harassment". although it has been used on occasion and with some justification, because I do not have sufficient evidence to justify pressing the point—whenever an unfurnished fiat or property is vacant, seek to introduce a little bit of furniture, transform it into a furnished letting and charge the most exhorbitant rents.
I understand that one of the reasons why the rents of furnished properties on the higher rental side are accelerating rapidly is the number of diplomatic people in London. Most of the embassies employ vast numbers of clerks and attaches, and so on, and they can afford to pay very high rents. They are not themselves responsible for payment of rents; the rents are paid by the embassy. I also understand that the presence of Continental and American and other merchants in the United Kingdom, particularly in London, also contributes to this acceleration of rents for furnished properties.
We have to find some way of protecting all those who have to obtain furnished properties in the absence of other accommodation. I am not satisfied that this Bill goes all the way, but I understand the dilemma. After all, the Government have not been long in Office and they have had to introduce a great deal of

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legislation, some of it complicated, and some of it will have great difficulty in passing another place and your Lordships' House. This Bill has no doubt been hurriedly prepared, as I can understand, and the draftsmen have encountered difficulties because effective definitions do not seem to be available. But we have to consider the humanitarian side of this question, and I beg my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal to give the matter further consideration, and perhaps come along at Report stage with some more accurate and satisfactory definition which would satisfy my noble friend Lord Gifford.
LORD GIFFORD: To some extent, this is a lawyer's question and I certainly do not want to have Divisions on an interpretation of the law. What I urge upon my noble friend is that this matter should go back to those who advise him, in the light of the pertinent and strong comments that have been made, to see whether their advice is likely to stand up. I say this in particular, because the view that he has expressed about board needing to import at least a meal does not seem to he supported by the very authority which he has quoted—the author, Mr. Justice Megarry, saying that something less than bed and breakfast will be good enough to get by what the courts may determine "board" to be.
As my noble friend knows, I have afforded him details of one case where there was no cooking at all done by the landlord for the tenant, but the minimum requirements for breakfast were delivered toitim each week—eggs, evaporated milk, and tea-bags—which the tenant then cooked himself. That is rather more than a vending machine, but considerably less than a breakfast. Why should it not be left to the courts to determine whether this is a substantial amount of board, and not, as it was in this case, a racket?—because we have to be on our guard against rackets. It is for the courts to determine, but the requirement of substantiality has stood the test of time so far as furniture and attendances are concerned, and there is no reason why the courts cannot continue to cope with it.
The strongest reason of all why I am urging that this matter be reconsidered by my noble friend is that in the course of the debate neither he nor any other noble Lord has put forward any reason
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why the Amendment would do harm. I can quite see what my noble friend means by "striking a balance" and, if it were the case that the Amendment, by favouring tenants who deserve protection, prejudiced certain landlords, they might need to be exempted from the Rent Act; but, as I have suggested and as is not disputed, any genuine bed-and-breakfast lodging-house-keeper will be fully protected by the requirement specifying that the board should be substantial. "Substantial" does not mean anything like half or even a quarter, as the courts have interpreted it. I should like not merely the assurance that we shall talk about this matter again but that those advising my noble friend, and indeed my noble friend himself will think about the matter carefully before the Bill finally leaves this House or, at any rate, before it passes through another place.
LORD SHEPHERD: I can only say to my noble friend that, if I undertake to talk to him, clearly I shall think about the matter seriously. There are, however, as he himself indicated when he referred to the lawyers' problems, disagreements not on the principle but as to whether it is a practicality and whether it is possible in legislative form to meet the point which the noble Lord wishes to see in the Bill. However, I will with my officials certainly give the matter the most urgent and careful attention and I shall be happy to discuss it.
LORD GIFFORD: I can answer only that it is certainly possible because the Amendment does it and it is not suggested that it does not, but, with that assurance from my noble friend. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Clause 1 shall stand part of the Bill?
4.4 p.m.
BARONESS YOUNG: I have put down this Amendment, which I have already indicated to the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, I do not intend to press, because on re-reading the Second Reading debate I did not feel that the Government gave a satisfactory answer as to what they propose to do for the many people who will find themselves worse off as a result of the Bill. We have of course heard a great deal about those who will

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benefit, but his Government must feel, as we do, quite certain that as a result there will be less accommodation to let than there is at the moment and that, as a consequence of this, the various groups of people who are looking for furnished accommodation will be worse off. I have looked carefully to see what the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, said on winding up the Second Reading debate. He says, in effect, and I quote:
"In our view, the proper providers of dwellings to let are the social landlords—local authorities and housing associations." —[OFFICIAL REPORT, 10/6/74; col. 288.]
In effect, the Government are saying that the only accommodation for anybody will either be that available to owner occupiers or to council tenants or to those who are involved in some way in a housing association.
The first group of people who, I believe, will be seriously affected as a result of the Bill are young married couples. I accept that they, ideally, will want a house or at least a flat of their own, but it is most unlikely that they will be able to afford to buy one and they will certainly not be eligible for a council house as soon as they marry. I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has figures for the average length of time couples wait on the housing list, even if they have children, from the time they put down their name to the time they get a flat. Clearly, it varies from place to place but, in areas of housing-stress—which are very much what the Bill is concerned with—the wait will be quite considerable and, for a couple who have just married and who have no children, I should think it would be numbered in years—two or three years as an absolute minimum.
The argument which the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, put forward is that the Government will give much more money for council housing and will provide money to buy the present privately rented furnished houses and flats. Leaving aside the second argument, as the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, will know, even if every single council housing committee sat down to-day and decided to build another council estate, it would take at least three years from the time of deciding to build to the time that the housing would be ready for people to move into.
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It would take considerably longer, of course, if the housing authority had to acquire the land, possibly by compulsory purchase, and had to go through all the necessary consultative and statutory procedures before it could achieve the number of houses that it wanted to build. I do not think that it is any real answer to say that the local authorities will take care of the matter. There will inevitably be a time lag—and a very long time lag—in areas of housing stress for the practical reason that in many places there simply is not the land available for the housing.
I welcome the increase in the amount of building by housing associations, but, again, I think it is optimistic to think that they will make up the backlog or, indeed, that young married couples will necessarily be able to get into one of their flats, which are not always all so cheap and are, of course, unfurnished. Almost by definition, these people will require furnished accommodation because they are starting their married life and have no furniture of their own. The second group that I think will be affected consists of young people: I already have down on the Marshalled List of Amendments an Amendment which covers, at any rate, students and those young people seeking qualifications, but one must recognise that many young people, now that they are adult at eighteen, wish to have a flat of their own and, rightly or wrongly, think this is the way to live. They too will find it difficult to obtain information and one point is absolutely certain—they will not be eligible for council accommodation. I find it difficult to believe that in the foreseeable future councils will have available flats to let to young single people. I well remember that when I was in local government I tried hard to get my own authority to build flats for older single people, particularly for single women, who often found it difficult to find suitable accommodation, and I failed every time—and I can understand why—because it was said that priority must be given to families.
The third group which will be affected are those who are changing jobs. I have no idea how many people are on the move, but in the course of the Second Reading debate my noble friend Lord Gisborough said that he let flats to

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people who were employed, for instance, on motorway building and there must be a large number of people who are changing jobs and who seek furnished accommodation until they are able to buy a house or find a home of their own. I believe that there is considerable evidence to show that people are reluctant to change jobs now, because, if they are fortunate enough to have a council house, they dare not move out since they are most unlikely to get another, unless they are fortunate enough to be able to make a direct exchange with somebody from another authority.
This means that we have become a relatively immobile society and as a consequence of the Bill we shall be even more immobile. This is a serious matter when one considers that all political Parties want to see greater economic growth because we all know that, without it, we shall not have the council houses or anything else that we want. The Bill, by making it more difficult to get temporary furnished accommodation will make it more difficult for people to move, and this could have a real consequence for industrial growth.
Thinking about the difficulties, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, will be able to tell the Committee something about the proposals which the Government may have to deal with what I think will become or could become a difficult social problem for authorities which have a large proportion of council housing and virtually no private housing. When I was in local government, one of the most difficult problems arose when a family had to be evicted from council property for non-payment of rent. The difficulty of course was that if the family were evicted, in these circumstances the children nearly always had to be taken into care, while the parents went somewhere else, with all the social consequences of that separation. On the other hand, if the family was left not paying rent, clearly all the other tenants began to think, "Why should we pay our rent if nothing happens?".
Then, of course, if one felt that it was undesirable to separate a family, it became necessary to think of some kind of accommodation to which they could be sent—or even building something—which perhaps was not as good as the council accommodation from which they
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came. It creates many problems. It is a difficult question because these kind of people are not homeless because they cannot find a home, but because they suffer from a multiplicity of problems. I do not think that anyone has yet found a solution to this. But clearly finding a solution can well become increasingly difficult when there is less choice, fewer types of housing available and when we have become a kind of society in which almost everybody is either a council tenant or an owner-occupier.
I have raised these four points because I think they are important. The first three concern groups of people who will undoubtedly suffer as a consequence of the Bill. I think it is only right that the Government should indicate how they intend to deal with these problems.
TIDE EARL OF KINNOULL: It may be for the convenience of the Committee if I speak in support of the Amendment of the noble Baroness while speaking to my Amendment at the same time. Along with my noble friend I, too, have real fears about the value of the Bill. Personally, I find most unconvincing some of the statements made this afternoon, especially those comments about landlord rackets and the urgency of the Bill. I believe the fact to be the complete opposite of the case. Everyone knows—that is, everyone who takes an interest in housing affairs—of the shortage of housing in this country to-day. Everyone knows there is a shortage of housing to buy; that there is a shortage of housing for unfurnished tenancies and everyone knows there is a shortage of housing for furnished tenancies. Why, one asks, are the Government bringing forward a Bill now which in 1971 the Francis Report considered unwise? I do not think that this point was ever answered by the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, on Second Reading. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, will later explain why the Government consider that it is right and proper now to bring forward such a Bill when the Francis Report considered it to be unwise.
I should like also to know what value the Government attach to the furnished accommodation market. Do they consider that it does a valuable job? If they consider that it has a value and they accept the Francis Report's worry about the market drying up I should certainly

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like to know who they think will replace the market. Will it be the local authorities, or who?
A third question which I should to ask the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, is what new evidence is there of hardship and harassment of tenants since 1965 and 1968 when his Party, the then Government, brought in two Housing Bills? Speaking specifically to my Amendment, the purpose of the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd—and I am sure of the Committee—is very simple. I should apologise about the drafting of my Amendment, which is in my own humble words. The purpose is to offer furnished tenants a limited security of up to 12 months, and indeed, to offer the landlords a limited confidence about their future. I hope the noble Lord may feel able to accept the principle of the Amendment which I believe goes somewhat between my noble friend's feelings—indeed I share her feelings—and the Government's purpose of the Bill.
LORD SLATER: When the noble Baroness talks about allocation of local authority houses to young people that have been married for only three years or so, is she not forgetting that we get a form of exchange from one local authority to another? We have had the Local Government Boundary Commission Report, which is now effective, and local authorities have much larger and more extensive boundaries than before. Three or four local authorities, previously units within their own right as local authorities, now have to build for the benefit of people living within their newly enlarged areas.
Another important feature is that of rents. We hear so much talk about the rent charges that have been fixed by local authorities. Who was responsible in the first place for the type of rent operation which is being looked upon as being so effective these days, where local authorities are concerned? It was not so much a Government proposal when differential rent schemes were introduced. The differential rent scheme, if my memory serves me correctly, started within the constituency that I represented for over twenty years in the other place. It was worked out on the basis of a differential rent scheme and it caused a great deal of chaos and much criticism, but nevertheless
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became adopted policy by Her Majesty's Government, which was a Tory Government at that time. The scheme has gone on.
When we talk about young people who have been married for three years, we must never forget that each local authority operates on a different form of basis. In some areas local authorities' housing allocations are based on a points system, for which one qualifies by having lived in the respective area for X number of years. In other local authority areas allocation is based on the years that an applicant has been married and living within that local authority area, and he has to take his turn in the queue. Therefore, the system differs from area to area. It is not as though it were just set out and based upon a points system or a yearly system of married life within a particular area of a local authority.
We must get this matter clear in our minds. So far as single people are concerned, another important factor is that when we talk about local authority building let us not forget that there have been many closures in big industrial sectors in this country, for example. British Railways. In my area I know that the local authority have recently, and even at the moment, had to take over streets and streets of houses that belong to British Railways—they had to take them off their hands. They did so to provide accommodation not only for the sitting tenants but also to discharge the liability of responsibility which British Railways wanted to cast to one side because they no longer had enough railway people to occupy those premises.
Not only that, but the means of alteration to many of these premises has taken up much of the time factor which the noble Baroness touched on—three years in starting and getting the land, introducing compulsory purchase of land for development, building of houses and so on. Not only does that apply to local authority building, it applies even to Post Office building. et cetera, through-out the whole ambit of operation so far as legislation is concerned. In the case of some local authorities in the area with which I have been concerned you will find that young people who have been married only three years have been able to go into empty accommodation, into council house property, as tenants;

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that is to say, they have been allocated a house after having been married for a period of only three years. On the other hand, in the case of another local authority it takes at least ten years before some applicants are able to find accommodation.
I know this is the situation in the great metropolis, in London, and I know that the great difficulties with which we are faced here are not present in many areas in the North and in the rural areas. However, I sincerely hope that while this Bill is being considered we shall not forget these important features which are relative to it, apart from what was said by the noble Baroness, who has had great experience in local government, as one gathers from the speeches that she made when holding the post that she had prior to going out of office. So far as our side, the Labour Government, is concerned, we still believe in a policy which has been condemned time and time again by the Opposition; namely, a direct-labour scheme for building local authority houses. Many of these schemes have been most effective as against private enterprise, which has been brought in to carry out certain contracts to build houses for local authority purposes.
4.22 p.m.
LORD ROBBINS: May I return for a moment to the issue of general principle which was raised by the noble Baroness? I am sure that all sides of the Committee will agree that we are dealing with a subject of great complexity, of great perplexity, when one comes to consider the detailed matters which have been touched upon by the noble Lord who has just spoken. I am sure that all of us who were not born yesterday—and, looking round, I do not see anyone who falls into that category—have heard shocking stories of the kind referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Gifford. Who of us would not wish so to shape legislation as to preclude the frequency of stories of that sort? But surely the ultimate question that one has to ask in making up one's mind whether or not to support legislation of this kind is this: will the net effect of additional legislation of this sort mean that more or less accommodation on reasonable terms is going to be available to the categories of people who seek it? Frankly, although I can see
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arguments which perhaps relate to the long period (when, let us hope, the housing problem will be less acute than it is now, and when one might regard refinements in the law of the kind contemplated here as being desirable), having regard to the real position here and now I ask the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd: does he in his heart really believe that there is no danger that, as a result of what he is doing, the amount of accommodation coming upon the market will be substantially less for a considerable period of time?
I do not wish to take up more time at this Committee stage in discussing these general principles, but the noble Baroness referred, for instance, to an extremely important category of applicants for accommodation of this sort. I refer to university students. Now I was away when the preliminaries here were under discussion, but when I heard that these matters were coming before our Committee for revision I began to make inquiries in the world in which I have spent most of my life. On the whole, the result of those inquiries is quite unequivocal. I have heard it said—and I do not know what moral the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, will draw from this—that there may be some slight bias in favour of students because some of them will be departing in three years. On the whole, the result of my inquiries, which have not been quantitatively exhaustive or anything of that sort, but which consisted just of asking knowledgeable people whose business it is to find accommodation for those young people coming up from the metropolis and seeking accommodation, is that the amount of accommodation available to them will be less. If I were a vice-chancellor beset with complaints about the insufficiency of accommodation already provided for students and anxious to be able to provide more residential accommodation of one kind or another, and knowing that in the present financial position it is not likely to be forthcoming, I should frankly be frightfully unhappy at the coming into operation of legislation of this kind at this moment.
LORD LEATHERLAND: I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, has mentioned the question, and the great difficulties, of housing accommodation

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for university students. I have some interest in this because until a few months ago I was for over ten years the treasurer of a university. The treasurer of a university occupies an honourable and picturesque post, but it is also an honorary one. Nevertheless, the post has involved a great deal of work, particularly with regard to the housing of students; and in this regard I would ask the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, to bear in mind two points. First, there are hostels which the university itself provides, and which will be dealt with later on by my noble friend Lord Annan. Secondly, perhaps a larger number of university students take up lodgings in private houses. In that event this Bill will not affect the situation at all, because the landlady will be living on the ground floor and the students will be living up above. They are not affected, either for good or for ill, by the provisions of this Bill.
I listened with very great attention to the noble Baroness. I thought she made a most reasonable, persuasive and calmly-worded speech. I was almost persuaded to say that there was a lot of sense in what she said. I will still say that, but I will add that it was not quite relevant to the point which we are now discussing; because the essence of everything that she said was that there is not enough accommodation in the country for all the people who are seeking it. Let us investigate this shortage, and see how it has come about. The last Government deliberately cut down the amount of council house building; they deliberately acquiesced in a drastic reduction of building for private enterprise. That is one of the reasons for the present shortage. I am indebted to my noble friends of the present Government, first, for granting financial assistance to the building societies to help them to provide more privately-owned accommodation and, secondly, for trying to speed up the provision by local authorities of more council housing for renting. The proposals of the noble Baroness will not provide more accommodation for people who want to take lodgings unless the existing lodger is evicted by the landlord, and it is because this particular Bill will prevent landlords from evicting tenants on that scale that I think it is deserving of support.
LORD AVEBURY: I think it was my remarks on Second Reading that the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, referred to. Then I said that the owners of furnished properties would, if anything, be more likely to let them to students than to other types of tenants because they had at least the prospect of automatic recovery of possession after three years, when the students left the university. This was in answer to the noble Lord from Edinburgh, who was telling us that more and more students were staying on in accommodation, and were likely to do so in the future, as they went on from a first degree to a Ph.D. It was news to me that more and more students are being permitted to go on to take Ph.Ds. I rather thought that in the university sector there was a cutting down of the number who were being given grants by the research councils, and that the current thinking was that more students on completion of their first degrees ought to go out to work in industry, at least for a period, before going on to a Master's or a Ph.D. But I am subject to correction from the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, who knows a great deal more about this matter than I do.
I, too, appreciate the need for accommodation for students, because I have a son at university. He is at Birmingham, where I understand the shortage of accommodation is probably greater than in almost any other university city in England, and where the charges made by landlords for students are not at all modest. I can assure the noble Lord that an adequate provision of hostel accommodation by the university would be a much more sensible solution of the problem. But one appreciates, in an area where public expenditure generally has had to be reduced to meet the economic situation, that student hostels are among the other worthy matters of expenditure which suffer.
But the noble Lord said that the fundamental question was whether the net effect of the Bill would be the provision of more or less accommodation and I should like to come back to the point that I made on Second Reading on which I can now give the Committee some further information; that is to say, what has been happening in the privately rented sector generally. The noble Baroness quoted some figures which I believe came from

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the Economist, though it was not clear what was the ultimate source. Unfortunately, what has happened is that the figures in the 1961 and 1966 censuses were not compiled on the same basis as those in the 1971 census. Therefore, any comparisons made between these three censuses give one very little clue as to what has been happening. I believe the noble Baroness said that there had been a reduction in the number of privately rented unfurnished properties, and a corresponding increase in the number of furnished properties. That indicated to her, as one might have expected, that many landlords were taking their houses out of regulation by putting some furniture in them and thereby getting them transferred to the furnished sector.
At first sight, one might get that impression, because one sees that between 1966 and 1971 in Great Britain as a whole there was a reduction of 162,000 in the unfurnished sector and an increase of 256,000 in the furnished sector. The reason for this is that in 1966 there was a large number of dwellings in the "other tenures" and "not stated" categories which included service tenancies and some others amounting to 897,000 in 1966, and that went down to only 33,000 in 1971. What happened was that there was a reclassification from "other tenures" and "not stated", which obviously went largely into the furnished sector. That is the reason why one can draw very few conclusions from the figures that the noble Baroness gave us on Second Reading. All one can do is take the three categories together—furnished, unfurnished and other tenures. We then find that over the five-year period between the sample census of 1966 and the full census of 1971 there was a decline of 770,000, or about 16½ per cent.
This reinforces the point I was making that, irrespective of whatever legislation there is on the Statute Book, as they get vacant possession landlords will sell for owner occupation, because they can obviously get a better return even if they put the money in gilt-edged than by letting off property and incurring the bother and responsibility of being a landlord. This is indeed confirmed by the evidence given to the Francis Committee by a sample of 63 landlords who were involved in rent tribunal cases in London, who were asked the question: "If
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security were granted to furnished tenants as it is to unfurnished tenants, how would this affect your furnished lettings?" Sixteen out of the 63 said that they would not continue to let at all, which reinforces the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, and the noble Baroness on the Opposition Front Bench. But I say that when they are faced with this choice of leaving property vacant or continuing to let they may come to a different conclusion.
What somebody says in answer to a hypothetical question of this kind is not always the same as what he does when faced with the actual circumstances. If he would not have sold off for owner occupation when he obtained vacant possession under the previous legislation, then, equally, it is unlikely that he will fail to continue letting the property furnished simply because this Bill has been introduced. If he has a large house with a couple of flats empty in it, what is he to do? Is he likely to sell them off? Perhaps he would do so, if he could. But to be an owner occupier of a flat in a building which is otherwise tenanted might, I suggest, be rather unattractive to a person with the money to buy rather than to rent. So it may be unlikely that the landlord will succeed in selling off piecemeal part of a building which is in multi-occupation. I think he would prefer to continue enjoying the benefit of the income he receives from that letting, rather than leaving it vacant altogether.
There is the provision, which we will come to discuss later on, for excluding landlords who live on the premises from the provisions of this Bill. There is quite a high proportion of those in London and in other stress areas, in particular. I am not saying that I agree with the provisions in the Bill which exclude those people from the scope of its application. But the landlord about whom the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, spoke on Second Reading, whose family grows up and leaves home, thus releasing a certain amount of accommodation, and who therefore performs a public service in letting off a few rooms to somebody who wants them on a short basis, will not be affected by the Bill, whether or not my Amendment or that of the noble Lord, Lord Gifford, is accepted. Those properties will remain within the furnished rented sector, whatever happens this

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afternoon or during the rest of the proceedings on this Bill.
I hope that we shall not exaggerate, as I feel the noble Baroness has done, the effect on the income of landlords or the anxieties which being a landlord may cause them, because if we adopt this tone during the proceedings on this Bill we shall indirectly produce the sort of result which the noble Baroness deplores and which the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, fears. By talking so much about the difficulties of private landlords in the furnished sector, we shall cause the decline—which is happening anyway—to accelerate.
LORD CLITHEROE: I shall not keep your Lordships more than a minute. I think I agree with everything the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Robbins said. With regard to the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, I am not quite sure whether he interprets the Bill as I interpret it, and it strikes me that the Amendment to be moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Young—I think it is the next one—will probably correct that. I am interested in universities, as he is, and I am thinking of the university landlady who does not seem to me to have the protection that she should have under the Bill as drafted, but might have appropriate protection under the Amendment to be moved by the noble Baroness.
LORD LEATHERLAND: As I interpret the noble Baroness's Amendment which is to come on very shortly, that is to extend the implication of the protection granted by the Bill from university students to nursing students and people undergoing other courses of training. But the noble Lord will remember, I am quite sure, that the university landlady usually lives in part of her house and lets off the other part to students and is therefore not affected by the Bill.
LORD CLITHEROE: Is that the case? The noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, will perhaps tell us.
LORD SHEPHERD: I suggest that if we wait until we reach that Amendment we can deal with that matter correctly.
LORD HYLTON: Several speakers have asked what will be the net effect if this Bill is passed, and it may be of interest to mention that Shelter produced
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a report for Greater London only, suggesting that there would be 5,000 units less per year becoming available for letting if the Bill went through. That represents something like 2 per cent. of the total furnished market in Greater London, so if they are right it is not a very big fraction. Against that loss, one has to set the immense gain to those who are now accommodated and who will not be evicted but will be gaining protection.
Several noble Lords have mentioned students. I think we should be quite clear that if two, three or four students club together they can always afford a higher rent than one family and therefore they win. At the present time, by using their greater economic resources they can get the accommodation they want, at the expense of families. Several of my noble friends, quite rightly, have pointed out the decline which has been going on now for many years in the private rented sector, regarding both furnished and unfurnished accommodation. I would say only this to them: a great deal of thought has been given to this problem and mention has been made of it, for example, in the Cullingworth Report on council housing and in subsequent papers from the Institute of Housing Managers. All those who have looked at the matter very carefully are saying that local authorities, helped by the Housing Corporation and housing associations, must in future cater for the whole population in their areas, and not just for families; that they must make provision for young people, for old people, for single people and mobile people, as well as for families with children. This will require a revolution in contemporary thinking.
As regards the Amendment put forward by my noble friend Lord Kinnoull, I think there may be something to be said for having a greater security of tenure for furnished tenants than they now enjoy. There may also be something to say for "term tenancies" which specify a period of time, so that both landlord and tenant know where they stand and arrangements may therefore be made in advance, one hopes, before a tenancy terminates.
4.43 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: Much of the debate we have just had is perhaps more

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relevant to a Second or Third Reading of a Bill, when general principles are discussed as regards the proposals before your Lordships. If I may say so to the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, my understanding is that in the short term the passing of this Bill is likely to reduce the number of furnished tenancies. This may be only in a short term, because it is not a Bill which is in any way "anti-landlord". There are quite a number of new provisions in the Bill which in many ways make the position of the landlord perhaps more secure, or at least more identifiable. Therefore one would hope that with the knowledge and experience of the working of this legislation landlords, who do provide a very substantial proportion of homes and places for people to live, particularly for short periods, may feel themselves able to available accommodation to the general public.
I think we should all agree that the real problem here is not the Bill or its provisions, but the fact that over many years we have not built enough houses either for the private or the public sector. That is the central issue for this Government, as it was for the previous Administration. I wonder whether the noble Baroness—and since I do not wish to be provocative I should like to ask her to give this to the Committee rather than myself—would agree that at the end of three or three and a half years of Conservative Government we were in fact building fewer houses both for private and municipal occupation than was the case a decade ago. That is the basic problem which confronts any Government and also, of course, the country.
Certainly there can be no solution to the problem which the noble Baroness is putting forward until we have revitalised the building industry and provided the finance to enable the local authorities to build even greater stocks of their own and perhaps to do something which may be even more difficult—and this is something of which the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, will have greater knowledge than most of us—in other words, to bring down the lending rates of building societies and banks. This has an international implication, of course, and it would make it possible for more people to purchase their own accommodation. I think I will
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be frank with the Committee and say that in the short term I believe this Bill will make for a reduction in this field but not—and here I would agree with my noble friend Lord Leatherland—as regards students. Certainly the students who, singly or with friends, occupy institutional accommodation or are with a landlady are not really governed by a tenancy at all but by what is called a "licence" and thus are not affected by the Bill. I personally do not think that we shall see any diminution of the accommodation available to students.
I agree, if I may say so, with the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, that we should make known the real characteristics of this Bill to landlords and to all those other companies who are involved in the letting of furnished accommodation. I do not believe that they will find in it anything which, as a good landlord or as a good property owner, would he difficult or inhibiting to accept. It seems to me that the question is whether we accept in the short term a small diminution—and the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, mentioned the figure of 2 per cent., though I myself am not able to confirm or deny that—in order to give security and a sense of stability to many thousands of people who to-day live in rented accommodation and who feel that the roof above them does not represent a home in the true sense but that it could disappear from above them without any great difficulty. I believe it is a political judgment (with a small p) as to whether this Bill should pass. I can only say to the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, that my political judgment (again with a small p) is that I would accept a small diminution of availability in accommodation in order to provide a really increased sense of security and stability for all those hundreds of thousands of young men and women who to-day live in rented accommodation.
BARONESS YOUNG: I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, for his reply. It has been worth putting down this Amendment, if only to get the noble Lord to say that the Bill is not meant to be "anti-landlord". I say that because I have had a shoal of letters which I am still attempting to answer, and I have seen two deputations of upset people who let, not on a large scale, but perhaps one or two houses, who

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are certain that this Bill is simply aimed at driving all private landlords out of the market. It is important in public life to try to hold a balance and to be fair to all sections of the community. Of course there are bad landlords, but there are also good ones. There are bad tenants as well as good ones, too. When one is considering all these matters, one must make quite sure that one is trying to be fair to all sections of the community so that one will not be accused of being prejudiced against one group of people.
I should like to thank the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, for speaking to his Amendment at the same time because its purpose is the same as mine; that is, to draw from the Government how they propose to meet the difficulties that this Bill will create. I can only say to some of the other noble Lords who have spoken and, in particular, to the noble Lord, Lord Slater, that I understand the point that has been made. I, too, had fifteen years in local government. I know how housing committees work and I know that there are different points schemes; but I cannot see that the Local Government Act 1972 will help the situation. It created larger authorities, but the districts remain the housing authorities. The real point of argument was the triumph of hope over experience. Local authorities can do an enormous amount to meet specific needs. In my opinion, in the foreseeable future they are not going to meet the needs of any of these three groups of people that I have identified. I am sure the noble Lord will agree with me, if he thinks about it, that they will certainly not meet these needs in areas of housing stress. I do not know the situation in the North-East; it may well be that you can put your name down on a council house list and get a flat within six months. But that must be one of the few areas of the country where that is possible. I am talking about groups of people for whom I do not believe local authorities will cater.
I listened with great care to what the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, said. It seemed to me that what he was saying was that my point was probably true, and that there would be less accommodation to let. But although landords
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have been asked by the Francis Committee whether they will continue to let and they have said that they will not, we need not necessarily go by that because it is hoped in the future, as a result of all this, that they will continue to let. That, again, is a triumph of hope over experience. I do not think he has produced any evidence that any of the groups of people that I have indicated will be helped.
LORD AVEBURY: What I said was that 16 out of the 63 landlords questioned— and it is important to remember that it was a rather special group of landlords who were questioned—said that they would not continue to rent. I said that it was likely that a smaller number would take up the decision if faced with the need to decide on the spot and not in response to a hypothetical question.
BARONESS YOUNG: I do not think that that invalidates my argument at all. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, said the landlords were asked a hypothetical question and gave an answer. He is now saying—and this is another hypothetical point—that if they were confronted they would give a different answer. We do not know; we do not have the evidence. We only have the evidence of what is happening— that there is less private, unfurnished accommodation to let. Now everybody is agreed that there is going to he far less furnished accommodation available.
LORD ROBBINS: May I interrupt the noble Baroness to add a grain of evidence to her argument? This is not hypothesis. In one educational institution in London the officer responsible for accommodation of students has recieved telephone messages from landlords in this particular position saying that they propose to sell.
BARONESS YOUNG: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, for that intervention. I hope he will be able to produce these figures when we debate my next Amendment which is specifically to deal with this point. It adds to the general point I am making, and I am grateful for it.
I should like to try to answer the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton. He has rightly summed up this Bill. I

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accept that there will be people who will he helped. There are obviously those at present in furnished accommodation. I do not think he is being fair when be says that few people will suffer. I have read carefully the memorandum circulated to me by Shelter. I do not know whether we are working from the same set of figures, but in the last paragraph on the first page of the document it says:
"It must be remembered that of 80,000 furnished tenants in London, 27 per cent. of all tenants rent from resident landlords."
They are the people who will not have protection under this Bill. Therefore I should have thought that slightly over 70 per cent. will. If the landlord, as a result of this Bill, decides to sell the property, this will cause a diminution in the supply of furnished accommodation. This is a matter which perhaps I could discuss with the noble Lord at some other time. We do not have any other figures on which to work, except those that have been circulated in this particular memorandum.
I indicated to the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, that I would not press this Amendment; but I hope that I have said enough so that those who continue to take part in the rest of this stage and the other stages of the Bill will realise that this is a serious matter, and that a considerable number of people will find it much more difficult to find accommodation in the future than they do now. We think that there will be considerable suffering as a result of this Bill.
LORD LEATHERLAND: Before the noble Baroness sits down, may I ask her to elucidate a little more her last reference, which was to the 70 per cent. or so of tenants who might find the house or block of flats sold over their heads? Will they not be protected tenants? Will not the landlord therefore have difficulty in selling with vacant possession? Will not the protection continue after the landlord has sold to the new owner?
BARONESS YOUNG: What the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, is saying is that this group of people will be protected, and that I accept; that is what the Bill says. I have indicated that a great many people will benefit. What we were trying to elucidate—and it is difficult to get figures on this—was the number of people
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who would not be helped. I have quoted three groups. They are either in furnished accommodation at present, or are about to look for it. There will be less furnished accommodation to let because the group of people who will probably give up letting furnished accommodation as soon as it becomes possible to do so will be the approximate 70 per cent. whose tenants would be given security under this Bill. That was the group of people that I was talking about.
Clause 1 agreed to.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: I thought we were still on my Amendment. I have one brief question on Clause 1. It concerns the words of the clause—
LORD SHEPHERD: Just to be sure that we are correct, the Question, "Whether Clause 1 shall be agreed to?" has been put. If the noble Earl has a particular point concerning the clause, if he would like to see me afterwards, I should be happy to deal with it. The Question has been put and it would be difficult, within our procedure, to go back, although I want to be helpful. If the noble Earl would like to see me afterwards, I should be happy to help him.
5 p.m.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL THE EARL OF KINNOULL: Moved Amendment No. 3:
After Clause 1 insert the following new clause:
". A protected tenancy in this Act shall refer to a protected furnished tenancy, and any such tenant under a protected tenancy shall deem to have been granted up to 12 months security of tenure beyond the term of a written agreement."
The noble Earl said: I have already stated the gist of my case regarding this Amendment to the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, and I do not intend to repeat that. When the noble Lord replies I wonder whether he would answer a small question which concerns Clause 1. It says that rental should include payments in respect of the use of furniture. For many years it has been the basis of assessing furnished rentals that part of the rental is for the accommodation and part for the furniture. As the noble Lord will know, in the courts there has been some disparity as to what percentage of the rent should represent furniture. Indeed,

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according to Sir Robert Megarry's textbook, the Francis Report stated:
"The Court of Appeal has expressed the view that in the absence of special circumstances 20 per cent. or more of the whole rent is a substantial portion for this purpose. Less than 15 per cent. is not. Anything between it is a borderline case. However, the House of Lords has said that it is for Parliament and not for the courts to lay down any percentages that may he required."
In a recent case the courts took the view that 8 per cent. was a substantial part and was sufficient to represent the furniture. I should like to ask the noble Lord whether he can comment as to why no percentage has been written into the Bill.
LORD SHEPHERD: We have not put in a percentage because it would be undesirable to do so. It is far better in our view, as in previous legislation, to leave this as a matter for the courts on which to exercise their judgment. In regard to the noble Earl's Amendment, this is very much in line with the debate we had on Clause 1. I can only say to him that we could not accept it in one sense. To grant twelve months, as the Amendment suggests, already duplicates what is for many an existing right, since they enjoy indefinitely their contractual tenancy. If the noble Earl's intention is—I am not sure whether it is—to limit this to twelve months, this would go quite contrary to the whole spirit of this piece of legislation. I hope the noble Earl will not press this Amendment to a Division.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: I am glad to report that I do not intend to press this Amendment to a Division, but perhaps on the next occasion we can discuss this matter yet again. What I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, is that I think I am correct in saying that under the present legislation a tenant does not have twelve months; in fact, he has up to six.
LORD SHEPHERD: If the noble Earl will look further on in the Bill he will find that we have provided that the rent tribunals can now extend the period after a notice to quite from six months to twelve months. We have also given the rent tribunals the power to extend this even further on application.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 2 [Certain tenancies not to be protected]:
5.3 p.m.
BARONESS YOUNG BARONESS YOUNG moved Amendment No. 4:
Page 2, line 29, leave out from ("pursue") to second ("or") in line 32 and insert—
"—

(i) a course of full-time instruction at any university, college, school or other educational establishment or institution,

(ii) a course provided or approved under section 2 of the Industrial Training Act 1964 as amended by the Employment and Training Act 1973, or any service contract, apprenticeship or further education associated with any such course, or

(iii) a course of study leading, to any of the following—

entry on the roll kept under section 2 of the Midwives Act 1951,

registration under section 7 of the Medical Act 1956,

admission to the register or roll maintained under section 1 of the Nurses Act 1957,

registration under section 2 of the Dentists Act 1957,

registration under section 2 of the Opticians Act 1958,

registration on any register maintained under section 2 of the Professions Supplementary to Medicines Act 1960,

registration under section 2 of the Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966,

admission under section 1 of the Solicitors Act 1974,

qualification to practice any other specified profession;".

The noble Baroness said: I beg to move this Amendment, which I regard as a very important one. I believe it will remove the three anomalies which now appear in Clause 2(1)(bb). I should like to begin by giving apologies from my noble friend Lord Balerno, who much regrets he is unable to be here this afternoon. At Second Reading he explained the great difficulties that students in universities and polytechnics will find themselves in if this Bill becomes law as it stands. The first anomaly in Clause 2 is that only those students living in accommodation provided by specified educational institutions will be exempted from the provisions of Clause 1; namely, security of tenure for all furnished tenancies. If, as everyone agrees, there will be less furnished accommodation to let as a result of the Bill, then thousands of students, who at present arc not living in

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specified educational institutions but in flats let privately, will be in great difficulties as this supply of accommodation begins to dry up, and they could well find themselves with nowhere at all to live.
My noble friend Lord Balerno has given me the estimated figures for Scotland. Although in the shortness of time since the publication of the Bill it has been very difficult to get very accurate figures, it is thought there are 5,000 such students in Edinburgh. This includes Heriot Watt university and colleges of art and of education
LORD SHEPHERD: Are these tenancies or are they licences?
BARONESS YOUNG: I am referring in all these cases to students who are private tenants of private landlords; that is to say, students who are not living in hostels or in accommodation provided by the university. In Glasgow there are about 2,000; this includes Strathclyde university. At St. Andrew's the figure is 500 which includes Stirling university. In Aberdeen it is 15,000, and that includes the colleges of art and education and technology. So, altogether there are about 9,000 in Scotland. I made inquiries in Oxford, and it is thought that between the university and the Oxford polytechnic there are probably about 5,000 students living in this kind of accommodation. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, can supply us with some information about the numbers of students in London, and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Annan, if he speaks to this Amendment, will do the same. I hope therefore that I have said enough to indicate that this is a very real problem of considerable magnitude.
I noticed an article in the Daily Telegraph of June 17 headed: "Digs crisis faces students", which said:
"Universities will face their worst ever accommodation crisis when term starts in October, Vice-Chancellors said yesterday. Only 4,000 extra hall of residence places have been built this year instead of the 10,000 originally planned. This is because of the Government's spending restrictions".
The article continues:
"One Vice-Chancellor said, 'If students realise the potential seriousness of the situation and take steps to find accommodation early, we may get through without a major crisis, but it will be touch and go'."
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The second paragraph is relevant to this debate because it assumes that a great many students, an even greater proportion than do now, will have to find private accommodation.
It may well be thought that one answer to this is that there should be more purpose-built accommodation. I have no doubt at all that that is true. But it ignores three important factors. The first factor is the cost of providing purpose-built accommodation for every student in every university and polytechnic. Secondly, there is the problem of the acquisition of land in suitable places. There must be (although, here again, I have not had time to check on every university) a good many universities which would find it impossible to acquire land close to their university buildings or suitably sited for students. Last of all, but just as important, that answer ignores the wishes of students themselves. Whatever we may think of the modern trend, students do not want to be in what they regard as a paternalistic setting. They regard themselves as adult at 18, and like to live on their own. They do not like the feeling that senior members of the university may be, as it were, looking over their shoulders—even though I am sure few of them have enough time to do that. So there is this great trend towards students having flats on their own.
It may be said, as the noble Lord. Lord Avebury, and the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, said, that landlords and landladies may well prefer. as a consequence of the Bill, to let to students. This may well be true, but what we do not know is how many students, most of whom by definition will be temporary tenants, will choose to move out at the end of their university course. Many may in any event want to stay on through the long summer vacation. Then, the good landlord who tries to put the flat or house in order and decorate it will find as soon as one group of tenants has left that there is no gap in which to do the necessary repairs because another group has come in. I have tried, but have been quite unsuccessful in getting the numbers of under-graduates who are now married. But I should be surprised if the numbers are decreasing. These are students who might well like to stay put, provided they

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find themselves in accommodation which is suitable.
Furthermore, postgraduate students in my experience are nearly all married. Quite a number of them have children and, naturally enough, if they find somewhere suitable they will be quite likely to stay on for a considerable time. Some under-graduates, notably science undergraduates if they go on to do a postgraduate degree, could be in a university for six or seven years and therefore would be tenants for a considerable time. I hope, therefore, that I have said enough to indicate that this is a problem of numbers of students up and down the country who will be seriously affected if the Bill becomes law. Therefore, I believe that an extension to Clause 2 is essential and that my Amendment does this by removing any limitation on the landlord who grants a tenancy under Clause 2(1)(b).
The second anomaly of this clause in the Bill is that few young people will be helped by this subsection. It refers only to
"a person who is pursuing or intends to pursue a course of study … "
provided by a specified educational institution. The second anomaly is, of course, that there are many young people pursuing all kinds of courses of study which are not defined. I accept that Clause 2(4) says that the Secretary of State will make regulations to define those institutions to be covered, but it seems to me that this is not good enough, because many people will want to know now whether they are to be covered or not by this. Therefore the second anomaly of Clause 2 is removed by my Amendment because it indicates the very large number of other courses that young people could be following. While they are taking these courses they will be looking for furnished accommodation to live in because the probability is that they will be following these courses away from home.
The first paragraph covers university students. As it indicates the second paragraph is taken from the Industrial Training Act 1964. It covers a great many people. Section 2 of the Industrial Training Act allows industrial training boards to provide courses, to approve courses, to assist persons in finding facilities for
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being trained for employment in industry. Therefore it covers a large category of people who will be doing various forms of industrial training leading to quite particular technical qualifications in industry.
The third paragraph applies to the various medical professions. On Second Reading I quoted nurses as an example of young people who frequently live in furnished accommodation in the course of their training and who will, therefore, find it very difficult to find any similar accommodation if this Bill becomes law.
Finally, there is a provision that any other group of students who may not be covered by all these specific recommendations can be so covered by regulations made by the Secretary of State. I feel that this is a much stronger and more widely drawn Amendment to this clause and strengthens the clause by making it possible for young people to find furnished accommodation. It brings into this group far more young people than those very narrowly defined in the first part of the clause. I think that it should be of enormous benefit to a group of people who, as I have already indicated, will find themselves in great difficulties as a consequence of this Bill.
In conclusion I should like to make it clear, as I am sure the Committee realise, that this Amendment was not drafted by myself but by my noble friend Lord Colville. Therefore I have considerably more confidence in it than I would have in the drafting of the Amendment by myself. I say this because I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, will look at this very seriously. I think that he would agree with me that this clause is an anomaly in the Bill; that it will be very difficult for many people to interpret it; that it is going to have very serious consequences for a great many young people, students in particular. Therefore I hope that he can say that he will accept it. I beg to move.
5.15 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: If I were to intervene here I might be able to help the noble Baroness. I may not be able to help her too far, but at least I can make a gesture towards here. May I also congratulate her or her noble friend on the manner in which they have carried out their research. It must have been a formidable undertaking. As introduced,

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the Bill excludes from full protection tenancies granted to students by educational institutions specified by regulations made by the Secretary of State.
I think that we should be quite clear about the limitations of this part of the clause. The effect of this Amendment would be to widen this limited exemption so as to embrace almost anybody engaged on a course of study or vocational training. It would specify the exemption classes in the Bill rather than in regulations and, as drafted, it would exclude from any protection any tenancy granted to a student rather than merely a tenancy granted by a specified institution. Quite apart, however, from the problems of definition and interpretation to which the Amendment gives rise, there are a number of serious objections to what the noble Lord and the noble Baroness are proposing.
Paragraph (bb) in Clause 2 of the Bill was drafted to take account of a situation which I think I should point out is believed to be comparatively rare—where universities and colleges have granted furnished tenancies to students for whom your Lordships will readily agree full Rent Act protection would scarcely be appropriate. This Amendment goes far beyond the strictly limited exemption that we are proposing. It would exclude from protection virtually anybody pursuing a course of study or training for a trade or profession, whether he was renting accommodation from an institution at which he was studying or from a private landlord. It would appear to mean that anybody studying for any professional qualification could not be a protected tenant, no matter where he was living. If we were to accept this proposal, we should be accused, I think quite rightly, of discriminating against a class of person simply because they were furthering their education, and I am quite sure that nobody on any side of the Committee would wish to be open to this charge.
This part of the Bill does not in any way deal with private accommodation. I sought earlier to explain the position, as I see it, of students seeking outside accommodation. This part of the Bill deals merely with accommodation that is provided by institutions. It would appear from the Bill that what was originally in mind was that the institutions would
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be those within what one might call the public field—the universities, the colleges, the polytechnics. But it has been put to me that there may be a number of private institutions which either provide both education and accommodation on the site or arrange accommodation themselves but within the private field. I want to say to the Committee that it is not our intention that these institutions should be included or that there is any question of treating the public accommodation in a different way from the private. We have sought in the Bill to do this by specification of tenancies and to have this in a Regulation in order to have flexibility. I can assure the Committee that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science will be open to discussion with any institution which may feel that they may be affected, in order that if there is a real case to be met those private institutions could be included in the Regulations.
I thought the noble Baroness went a good deal further than the particular subsection in the clause, and I think on reflection she will agree that we are dealing here with the question of the institutions and not that of the provision of flats. I know that many students like living in flats. My younger son is already embarking on that next term in his second year at university, and I must say that when I see some of those whom he has around him who will be tenants I really wonder whether I should be willing to be the landlord! But there it is. They are embarked upon this venture and so is the landlord. The difficulty here is that local authorities have their major demands placed upon them by those who are on their waiting lists, and the noble Baroness herself referred to that earlier. I suspect that one of the consequences of this Bill—and I will be frank about it—is that the furnished flat accommodation for students is likely to be shorter and therefore there will be a need for students to move into furnished accommodation with a landlady. Here my understanding is that we are not then in the field of tenancy but of licence, which is not dealt with in this part of the Bill.
I have sought to deal with the Amendment and—I will not say its shortcomings. because it is too early at this stage of the Committee and I do not want to cross

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the noble Baroness too soon. It is on account of some of the difficulties that would confront us if we were to accept the Amendment that I have sought to be forthcoming in regard to the private institutions which may feel that they have not been included. I hope that with that explanation the noble Baroness will feel that the work put into this Amendment by her noble friend Lord Colville of Culross was not entirely wasted (because we have had a debate), and that she will now be willing to withdraw the Amendment.
5.23 p.m.
LORD ANNAN: I wonder whether it would be helpful if I were to speak on this Amendment and not on Amendment No. 10 which is tabled in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Hampstead. It is really on the same subject. Like the noble Baroness, I must at once admit that my Amendment was drafted by me. She has said that her amendment was drafted by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, and mine was drafted by the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, and that may he the reason for the seemingly tortuous, incomprehensible form of the Amendment I hasten to say that the mind of the noble Lord cannot be described by those adjectives; it is pellucid. The reason of course, is that the very nature of rent legislation makes any Amendment, even on a comparatively simple point, appear impenetrable.
May I try to explain my point in very simple language. As the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, said a moment ago, for the first time Her Majesty's Government are applying rent protection to furnished tenancies and have, if I may say so, very sensibly exempted from this control a number of special cases. The only one with which I am concerned, of course, is that of tenancies granted to students by educational institutions. The reason for this exemption is the obvious one that has been mentioned already: the very essence of student accommodation so provided is its ephemeral character and therefore it would be positively undesirable if tenancies of this character were subjected to statutory control. That is why, as the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, said, the exemption has been provided for under Clause 2(1)(bb) of the Bill.
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Naturally, the universities are extremely grateful for this understanding, but unfortunately if the Bill is enacted in its present form the very point that Her Majesty's Government wanted to achieve may well be defeated. The reason for this is simple. The present exemption applies only in the case of a tenancy in the legal understanding of that term. In practice, universities and similar institutions invariably and quite naturally grant to their student occupants not a tenancy but a licence to occupy the relevant premises. Licences to occupy do not in any event fall under the ordinary Rent Act control, either in the case of unfurnished or furnished lettings, and therefore the exemption as at present provided for may well be irrelevant to some of the problems which universities and other institutions face.
As those of your Lordships who are familiar with rent legislation will be aware, furnished lettings have always been treated separately, and while they are not subject to normal Rent Act control they come under the limited and rather special form of control that was first introduced, so I understand, by the Furnished Houses Act 1946, which will now be found to be re-enacted as Part VI of the consolidating Rent Act 1968. Since some of your Lordships—and I certainly was one of them—may not be too clear on this point, I must explain that control under the 1946 Act enables the tenant to apply to a rent tribunal to have his rent adjusted and registered, and there are also provisions for giving him a very limited discretionary security of tenure. I should also explain that control under the 1946 Act applied not just to tenancies in the strict sense but to any contract conferring the right to occupy a dwelling. Therefore such controls apply in the case both of the tenancy and of the more tractable licence.
As the student occupier is in fact almost invariably a licensee it follows that if the exemption introduced in Clause 2 of the present Bill is not also extended to confer a similar exemption in the case of contracts for the letting of a furnished dwelling, the commendable aim of Her Majesty's Government to give effect to the special situation of universities in this matter may well prove ineffective. So the simple purpose of

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the Amendment which we are now discussing and of Amendment No. 10 is precisely to provide the same exemption in the same terms as conceded in regard to Rent Act control in the case of furnished licensees, to which the 1946 Act system of control would otherwise apply.
I should perhaps explain that the reason why it is undesirable that even the limited control under the 1946 Act should not be applied in the case of university students is that so far as security of tenure is concerned there is clearly no case at all for giving ephemeral occupants in this category some form of statutory security. Parliament certainly could not have contemplated such cases when the 1946 Act was introduced. So far as rents are concerned, the universities, who are required to break even on their special charges, therefore find themselves in a ludicrous situation. If the rents charged are subject to a separate system of registration, the universities cannot fulfil the obligations which the University Grants Committee has laid upon them. That is the obligation to break even and not subsidise students' residences from their block grant. So we are in a corner and we do not know how best to proceed.
So may I submit that the Amendment which I have in mind, and also that tabled by the noble Baroness, is completely sensible and justified in the circumstances. It does no more than give effect to what must, one should have thought, be the underlying purpose of Clause 2 of the present Bill. Lest any noble Lord might think that I am urging the point from the biased standpoint of the Vice-Chancellor's Committee, this question was fully explored by the Francis Committee. Their massive Report on the Rent Act was presented in March, 1971, and is referred to as Cmnd. 4609 of that year. In chapter 28 of that Report, on page 164, the Committee discussed various exemptions from Part VI of the Rent Act 1968, and in particular referred to student lettings. In the case to which I am now referring, namely, lettings of accommodation owned by universities and institutions of higher education, the Committee stated categorically, and I quote their actual words:
"Our view is that such lettings, if unfurnished, ought not to be protected, and, if furnished, ought to be exempted from Part VI."
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It follows therefore that this whole question has already been subjected to very full study by a highly qualified Committee which reached this unqualified conclusion, which, so far as I am aware, has not since been contested. This is the purpose of the Amendment in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Hampstead, and if the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, could give an assurance that this particular point would be considered I should be very happy to let the matter rest there.
LORD CLITHEROE: May I ask the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, to explain to me what exactly is meant by Clause 2(1)(bb)? There are in the county in which I live a number cf educational establishments. Until April 1 there were four universities, but now only one, but each depends on lodgings for the accommodation of students. When I was an undergraduate I was myself a tenant. Can the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, say what is the position now of a student in a university who is a tenant? Is the person who is his landlord protected or not protected? That is the simple question I put.
LORD LEATHERLAND: As I spoke about university students earlier in the debate I do not wish to repeat what I said on that occasion. I want to ask an innocent little question in order to seek knowledge. I know a young lady who is thinking of training as a nurse. At the present time she will probably be put into the nurses' home at the hospital where presumably she will enjoy security of tenure, so long as she behaves herself, of course. If we accept the Amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Young, that protection will be removed from her. Could my noble friend clarify the position? He will probably be able to tell me that residence in the nurses' home is a kind of licensed residence and therefore she will be protected to that extent. The position of this young lady must be typical of thousands.
LORD HAWKE: I support my noble friend Lord Clitheroe in asking for elucidation. I am absolutely bemused by torrents of words on this matter and I must plead complete ignorance of the existing state of undergraduates, the state under the Bill and that under my noble friend's Amendment.
5.34 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: I will do my best to answer the questions. If the young lady whom my noble friend Lord Leatherland has in mind becomes a student nurse in one of our teaching hospitals and occupies accommodation belonging to that institution—or to any other institution, because we should like to see an exchange and interchange of accommodation—she would, in 99.999 per cent. of cases, be under a licence. When she has completed her studies the institution would be able to require her to leave the premises. That is the object of Clause 2(1)(bb). Thus, when a student goes into a university there should be no question about his leaving the premises when he has completed his course. My understanding is that a student who lives in such premises as the young lady training in hospital would be under a licence; but we have included paragraph (bb) because there is just a small chance that some university or other educational institution may have granted tenancies. By excluding this part of the Bill we do not wish to make it possible for a student, who may be there on a tenancy and not under a licence, to have permanent occupation of accommodation in an educational institution. That is the purpose of paragraph (bb). So far as I know, it has nothing whatever to do with private accommodation outside the institution.
I must congratulate my noble friend Lord Annan for—I will not say, jumping the queue, but certainly on having taken the opportunity of putting his Amendment forward in the hope that I would accept it. No doubt he will enjoy a quieter supper than he would perhaps have enjoyed in your Lordships' House if he had remained in order to move the Amendment. I very much regret that I cannot accept his Amendment. Clause 2(1) of the Bill excludes from full Rent Act protection tenancies granted to students by educational institutions. Part VI of the 1968 Rent Act applies only when persons are granted a right to occupy a dwelling as a residence. These words show some intention to restrict Part VI to cases where furnished premises are occupied as a home. It is arguable that in the normal case a student's residence is at his own home.
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It is understood, however, that some rent tribunals have been prepared to accept the jurisdiction over lettings by educational institutions and to fix rents paid by students. Their right to do this has not, so far as is known, been tested in the courts which are the final arbiters on whether a rent tribunal has jurisdiction in any individual case.
It seems to us rather strange to include in a Bill, the main purpose of which is to protect the rights of tenants, a provision that would expressly remove a right which students already have. Such a provision would be considered inequitable and might be widely regarded as an act of discrimination against students by the Government. We believe it is right that students should not be given security of tenure, but we thing it not inappropriate that they should have the rent fixing procedures available to them. We are not giving it them; they have already acquired it by the decisions of a rent tribunal, and the Government do not feel that they would be justified in removing what is an apparent right to-day.
LORD CLITHEROE: The noble Lord has not answered my question. What is the position of a student who is in a lodging in a unversity? This applies to a very large number of students in many universities. Is the landlord of the student protected, or is he not?
LORD SHEPHERD: If I may say so, I thought I had answered the noble Lord. The noble Lord asked: "What is the position of a sudent in lodgings in a university?" My understanding of that was lodgings in the university. Is that what the noble Lord had in mind?
LORD CLITHEROE: No. One can have either lodgings in college, which means one has rooms in college, or one can lodge with a private landlord, be the tenant of a private landlord somewhere. If one is the tenant of a private landlord, is the private landlord to be protected? He should be, otherwise other students will not be able to come there.
LORD SHEPHERD: If the noble Lord will refer to Schedule 2 to the Bill, he will see that here we are dealing with furnished tenancies where the landlord is an occupier. I think that is what the noble Lord had in mind. The noble Lord will see there that under Part VI

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of the Rent Act the landlord has a special position. I speak now with some confidence, but I do not think there is any difficulty in the landlord being able to bring the licence to an end as and when he so wishes, by having given the proper notice.
LORD CLITHEROE: The noble Lord used the word "licence". I used the word "tenancy".
LORD SHEPHERD: I think it may be one and the same thing. My understanding of the word "licence" is the agreement between a tenant and a landlord on the basis of lodger or boarder, where there is not a complete right to a particular individual dwelling place. But I will look at the point the noble Lord has put, because I agree with him that one wants to be quite clear. I think I can give the noble Lord a very clear assurance that the student—I have been passed a piece of paper, and perhaps this may help. It says: "Licences to occupy. It has been held by the High Court that Part VI of the Act can apply to a licence which meets the conditions of Part VI"—I am sorry, I had better come back to this at a later stage. I cannot read it.
LORD CLITHEROE: May I thank the noble Lord. I just wanted to give some assurance to the landladies in Morecambe.
LORD SHEPHERD: The assurances I have given will stand up to examination. There is no difficulty here, but the part of the Bill we are dealing with is that in regard to institutions.
LORD LEATHERLAND: While thanking my noble friend for the satisfying reply which he gave to my question about the young lady who wants to train to be a nurse, I ought to add, in order that suspicions may be removed, that the young lady is my granddaughter.
LORD WYNNE-JONES: I have been slowly and painfully struggling towards what may be an understanding of this clause. I do not know whether I have reached the point, but I should like to raise one matter which may merely show that I have completely misunderstood it. If one looks at Clause 2(1)(bb), one finds
"the tenancy is granted to a person who is pursuing or intends to pursue a course of study …".
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My noble friend the Leader of the House has been pointing out that most of the students will not require the protection of this clause at all, or the institution will not require it, but that there are a few, very few, which I think my noble friend put at 0.0001 per cent.—
LORD SHEPHERD: May I say that we do not even know who they are, but are merely putting it in as protection.
LORD WYNNE-JONES: That is precisely why I raised this matter, because there are some habitations which have been built by universities. I happen to know of one where a number of flats were built by the university out of private funds, not out of University Grants Committee funds because the University Grants Committee will not give money for this purpose. In the university of which I am thinking, these amount to about 20, and were built for married postgraduate students. I imagine these come exactly under this particular clause.
What slightly worries me is the phraseology, "to pursue a course of study". These flats are meant for research students. I know that sometimes research is referred to as a course of study, but when one is thinking in particular of research students in the fields of science, medicine and technology, there is no study in the ordinary sense, in the undergraduate sense. These people are actively pursuing research work. I should like to be satisfied that the word "study" will not be used in a restrictive way, because it seems to me perfectly clear that the intention here is that any student occupying a university flat, while he is an undergraduate or a post-graduate student, is really in this kind of contractual position with the university. Can the noble Lord tell me whether or not I am right in my interpretation?
LORD SHEPHERD: I can give the noble Lord, Lord Wynne-Jones, that assurance. My understanding is that the word "study" would cover those who were doing research. So I can give that assurance to my noble friend.
LORD HAWKE: I thank the noble Lord for that reply. He has certainly cleared up one point; that in the Year 1922/23 at No. 2 Kings Parade, Cambridge, I was the licensee. But I understand that the modern generation is not content with that. As the noble Lord

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said earlier, students go in for renting flats. Presumably, the landlords or the owners of these flats are people who keep the flats specially for letting to undergraduates. If they are going to have undergraduates with full rent protection staying in those flats for their three years, or whatever it is, staying on for a postgraduate course, then for further study, and then possibly taking up a job in the town, these places will be occupied for ever by people who are not undergraduates. Under existing circumstances, do those tenants have protection? Under the Bill do they have protection? Under the Amendment do they have protection?
LORD SHEPHERD: So far as the Amendment is concerned, it does not apply to them. My understanding is that students who are in flats under the normal circumstances of a tenancy will have the same rights, and the landlord will have the same obligations and the same limitations, as anyone else with a tenancy of that sort. But I believe that tenants, students of this type, who are entering into a new agreement might be able to enter on what I think is called a fixed term tenancy. If there were a clear statement at the beginning of the agreement, I think it is possible that the students would have an obligation to leave at the end of the tenancy. This will certainly be applicable to a landlord who may have the premises and who has gone overseas, perhaps on an overseas tour to an embassy or a university, for a period of perhaps a year or two. He would be able to let his premises on a fixed term tenancy, making it quite clear, however, that at the end of that fixed term the person would have to leave. Then the tenant would have to leave. I understand that the general principle, however, is that students who occupied furnished premises would be in the same position as any other tenant.
LORD ROBBINS: Will the noble Lord tell us how far the possibility of fixed term tenancies extend? Listening to what he has just said, it seems to me that all landlords who have been in the habit of letting flats of this sort to students will at once switch over to fixed term tenancies, because that would solve a great deal of their problems.
LORD SHEPHERD: I said that there is a limitation which is open to a certain
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type of landlord, and I specifically referred to those who were proceeding overseas and clearly had it in mind to let their premises for a fixed period. Perhaps I have mislead the Committee into thinking that there is a loop hole here; that one could enter into a fixed tenancy and therefore immediately be excluded from the general provisions. Clearly this Bill, like other legislation, provides for a person who has a tenancy, whether it is fixed term or periodic, the right security of tenure in the premises. I was trying to meet the point of the noble Lord, Lord Hawke. I think the point I was making would be very much limited to those landlords who wished to make premises available while they proceeded overseas.
LORD ROBBINS: So that it would not be open to, let us say, an elderly professor, having inherited from his economist colleagues a solid lack of confidence in gilt-edged securities, to erect a block of flats and let them on fixed term tenancies to married graduate students?
LORD SHEPHERD: If I may say so to the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, I have not yet lost confidence in gilt-edged securities.
BARONESS YOUNG: I am most grateful for the great interest to which the Amendment has given rise, because it meets a very real anomaly in this Bill. I was not really satisfied by the reply of the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, though I am grateful, of course, for the crumb of comfort he has given: that in making regulations the Secretary of State for Education and Science will consider any representations made to him about independent institutions that would not otherwise be covered. On that point, I really do not think that is good enough, because I do not see why these establishments which I have in mind—something like a secretarial college which is, after all, performing an extremely useful service to the community at large—should not simply be covered in the first regulations.
But what is much more important is that the noble Lord has not answered the very real fear that I expressed on Second Reading which now has the support of the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, who, of course, speaks with such authority on these matters, and the noble Lords. Lord Annan and Lord Clitheroe. I am not sure whether the noble Lord, Lord

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Wynne-Jones, has had all his questions answered. The fact is that this Bill as drafted leaves a great gap in the provision of accommodation for students, and it seems to me, although the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, seems to think that it is perfectly all right, that he has in fact exactly made my point in explaining the clause as it stands. He said that the reason for this clause is that although most students in specified educational institutions are there on licence, there may be some who are tenants and there should be no question about a student leaving his premises when he has completed his course; that is to say, the university must be sure that when he has finished his course he will leave the accommodation. That is, of course, completely reasonable and nobody objects to that.
What we are saying is: what about all the other thousands of students not in licensed premises, not in premises where there is a resident landlord, who are private tenants, who will now enjoy full security under Clause 1? On the explanation of the noble Lord. Lord Shepherd, they could be there indefinitely. I accept that a lot will not be there indefinitely, but enough will be there for quite a considerable length of time for landlords not to wish to let their premises in the future. Because they do not wish to let their premises, students will have nowhere to go. For all the arguments that have been put, the universities do not have the money to erect these buildings. We do not know when all these spendid benefactors will turn up to provide the money, and in the intervening period of time there will be an acute shortage of accommodation.
The noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has not provided any answer at all. I do not know whether he has had discussions with his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science. But I should have thought that if the Government had consulted at all with vice-chancellors or anybody in the university world, they would have realised that this Bill would cause very great difficulties indeed. I feel that to leave the position as it is with simply an assurance that the noble Lord will say that private students can get their names put on the list of those who will be exempted, is really not good enough. Not only do we need this assur
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ance so far as university students are concerned, but we need it over the whole range of other young people.
May I refer to the case of the nurses? My home is in Oxford, and not only does it have a university and a polytechnic, but it has an enormous medical centre. I think I am right in saying that there are seven major hospitals, including a teaching hospital. There are, therefore, an enormous number of young people coming as medical students and nurses, and all the ancillary medical workers. I can think of two houses which are let furnished exclusively to nurses. I should not like to say exactly at what stage they are in their training, but houses of that sort are going off the market.
Where are these people to find accommodation? Not all nurses wish to live in purpose-built nurses' accommodation—there are all sorts of disadvantages as well as advantages to that—and given that people should have a certain degree of choice as to where they live it seems to me that they will be put into an impossible position under Clause 2(a). That is why my Amendment has extended the provision to include other people seeking professional qualifications. What I am saying also applies equally strongly to those who are working for some kind of technical qualifications. That is why I have included paragraph (ii) of my Amendment. I do not think that the noble Lord has given any answer to these points.
LORD AVEBURY: I am sorry to interrupt the noble Baroness's most eloquent argument. She said categorically that she knew of two houses that were wholly let to nurses which are now being taken off the market. Is the landlord trying to sell them for owner-occupation? If so, I should have thought he had chosen a rather odd time to do it, with the market in such a state. I am surprised at that information. I should have thought that if landlords of furnished properties did that on a large scale they might find they had lost a great deal of money on the sale.
BARONESS YOUNG: I hope I have not misled the Committee in any way. What I thought I said was that I know of two houses let to nurses. My argument is that at an appropriate time the landlord will make a decision. I am sorry if I said

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that the landlord would give up immediately. Clearly, nobody expects the landlords of every bit of furnished accommodation to decide to sell it as a result of this Committee stage. I do not think my argument was quite so absurd. What I am saying, and what we have all agreed, is that as a result of this Bill there will be less furnished accommodation to let. I am saying that those young people who require furnished accommodation for a given period of time, and which the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has agreed in the case of university accommodation, must really be on a sequence of short tenancies. This should be available to more than just university students in university premises. That is my argument. I have not heard anything that refutes it or meets this point. I hope that the noble Lord will say that he will take my Amendment back and look at it. If it is deficient in drafting I am prepared to accept that, but I cannot accept his argument as it stands.
6.1 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: I have a suspicion (I have smelt this atmosphere before), that the noble Baroness is working round to a Division. Looking at the rather over-full Benches opposite at this time of the evening. I suspect that that is very much in her mind. What do I do, as a gentleman? Do I give her the privilege and joy of having a Division, or respond to the invitation she put to me that I should consider this matter again? I ought to put it frankly to the noble Baroness that she is saying that in order that students should have the existing supply of rented accommodation they have not to be protected, because this is what the Amendment will do. Under the Amendment students will not be protected either at rent tribunals, or by the rent officer, or the like. This is more than many of my noble friends would wish to swallow.
If, however, there is some way in which we could meet the heart of the case put by the noble Baroness—I do not know if there is one—I am quite willing, I have always been willing, and nobody would be more willing, to talk with the noble Baroness about this matter. If I can save the noble Baroness from going through the Division Lobby I am very willing to do so. I cannot give any firm commit
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ment, but I shall certainly see what can be done. I recognise that there is a difficulty, but this part of the Bill was not designed to deal with the students who live in private accommodation. I will look at this matter. If the noble Baroness will be satisfied with that, I shall undertake to do it in a most serious manner, not in a trivial or lighthearted fashion in which I am perhaps now approaching the Committee. I shall do it seriously, but I cannot give the noble Baroness any firm undertaking that we shall be able to find a solution. We are dealing here (are we not?) with the problem of providing accommodation for ordinary people other than simply students, and this is a pressure that is on us all the time.
LORD ROBBINS: I was simply going to suggest terms of reference for the noble Lord's meditation. He has agreed, in recommending the clause under discussion, that he thinks it right and proper that university institutions should have the right to turn out the students who have finished their course of studies. He has also pointed out to us again and again in the course of this debate that if the students who do not live in college take apartments in a house where there resides an aged landlady, or perhaps the wicked landlord himself, then they are not protected. So there are people, in the intermediate region, who, like his relative, if I understood him rightly, are proposing to take flats not immediately under the supervision of a landlord who lives in the basement. This is now popular among students. Many of the students are browned off with hostel accommodation. I think that they are wrong, although in some respects it saves a university much trouble if they do not have to act in a paternalistic way.
Certainly this would be more popular among students. It is that group of students, their rights and the rights of their landlords, which really are the subject of discussion in this debate. Whether in fact all that we have said on the noble Baroness's Amendment has been strictly relevant to the particular clause under discussion is an open question, but it has afforded us a splendid opportunity for ventilating the case of this important body of students. We have all agreed (have we not?) that there is likely to be less accommodation for them if this goes through in its present form.
LORD WYNNE-JONES: May I put this point to my noble friend the Lord Privy Seal: what the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, has just said, and what the noble Baroness has said previously, amounts to an important matter dealing with a problem of growing urgency. This is something where the Government could well say, "We should like to look at it carefully, and see what we can do about it." I still do not feel clear about the situation at all, but I know that there is a problem. I have been convinced, in listening to the arguments this afternoon, that the problem is one which ought to be tackled. If the Government are prepared to do it, I am sure that that would win the approval of the Committee.
LORD SOMERS: I think that the noble Lord the Leader of the House said that this Amendment seeks to provide protection not only for students but for ordinary people. If you look at the Amendment, paragraph (iii) says:
"a course of study leading to any of the following …"
They are students. If you are studying to be an optician or veterinary surgeon, you are a student. You may not be a university student, but you are a student.
LORD HYLTON: If the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, is to reconsider this, would he consider legislation somehow in the context of the Bill so that students, and other people doing bona fide courses, can have a fixed-term tenancy, so that they are secure for the normal period of their course or post-graduate studies. He mentioned the case of the owner-occupier who goes abroad for a fixed period of time. That is all right, and we know about that, but it does not cover the professional landlord, or landlady, who is not a university body in his or her right.
LORD SHEPHERD: Everybody likes to be popular, and since the noble Lord, Lord Robbins, suggests that one might be popular if one undertakes to look at this matter, clearly I will. However, there are great difficulties here. It will be necessary not only to discuss this matter within the Departments, but certainly we shall need to discuss it with the local authorities, and also with the various institutions. Clearly, this will take time. I will undertake to look at this matter. However, I think I ought
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to be fair and frank with the Committee; even if they were to pass this Amendment, they would not really be doing anything for the people that we have been discussing, because the Amendment, at heart, deals with institutions. I shall be in immediate consultation with the noble Baroness, and I hope that she will feel so disposed towards me that she will not pursue me on the next stage of the Bill.
BARONESS YOUNG: As the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, knows, I am always a reasonable person. I have listened carefully to him and I will accept his offer to discuss this clause. In doing so, I must be equally frank with him; I cannot accept it as it stands because I do not think that it answers the real points that have been made. I should have said earlier on that I do not believe that it would be impossible to identify who is doing a bona fide course of the kind described in my Amendment, because it is perfectly possible to produce some kind of document from the institution giving the course to that effect. I think that this rather minor technicality could be covered. I hope that, when he discusses it with me, he will tell me in what way he feels my Amendment could be improved to meet these points. I do not regard it as necessarily perfect, but I do not think, and nor do I believe that the Committee as a whole believes, that the clause is correctly drafted. On these terms, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.11 p.m.
LORD GIFFORD LORD GIFFORD moved Amendment No. 5:
Page 2, leave out lines 33 and 34 and insert—
"(bbb) the intention of the parties to the tenancy at its inception was that the tenancy should be for the purposes of a holiday;"
The noble Lord said: This is in a sense another lawyers' Amendment. It is a very important one and attaches to a very important point, but I hope that it is not a controversial one. It deals with the definition given in the Bill of "holiday lettings". We have reached Clause 2(1)(bbb) and the noble Baroness will later be going into the fourth degree of "b's", which only goes to show how

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difficult the Bill is. I recognise at once that the landlords and landladies of genuine holiday accommodation should be outside the control of the Rent Act. Equally clearly, I would hope that my noble friend will accept that landlords in the inner cities should not be able to evade the Rent Act by describing as holiday accommodation what is a perfectly ordinary letting to a family which does not need a holiday at all. I have experience of an agent in Notting Hill who quite regularly puts on the rent books which he gives to prospective tenants the words "Holiday Letting", knowing quite well that the tenant does not want a holiday in bracing Notting Hill but is in fact in need of a home. I have been able to show my noble friend a copy of one of these bogus holiday agreements. The tenant is made to sign a form headed "Holiday flats—temporary accommodation available for a maximum of 26 weeks". The wording continues, "I agree to take the flat as holiday accommodation for a period of four weeks", and that is then renewed month by month at an exhorbitant rental.
If, as a result of a wrong definition of "holiday accommodation" in the Bill, landlords were able to evade the intention of the Bill by describing something as a holiday letting when it is not so, a major gap would have been blown in the Bill. I am very doubtful whether the definition of a holiday letting proposed in the Bill serves to protect the tenant of what I have described as bogus holiday accommodation, for what the Bill requires a court to look to is the right conferred upon the tenant. The purpose of the tenancy is to confer upon the tenant the right to occupy the dwelling house for a holiday. My fear is—and I have discussed this with colleagues at the Bar—that when a test case comes before it the court will say, as it certainly will, that, though the tenant may well not have wanted to have a holiday, that was the only right which the landlord conferred upon him. The courts will look to the form of agreement and, seeing that, as in the case I have mentioned, it states that the accommodation is only holiday accommodation, will say that they cannot say that the purpose of the tenancy was to confer on the tenant the right to occupy the premises permanently, because that
1204
was manifestly not what was stated in the agreement itself.
I think that the intention of the parties as to the purpose of the tenancy should be the decisive factor. If it is quite apparent that both landlord and tenant knew that no question of a holiday was required by the tenant, the courts should be able to investigate and to get behind the form of the letting, and to say that the intention of the parties had nothing at all to do with holiday accommodation.
It is essential to get this right because the kind of gap which a wrong decision on this matter would expose is considerable. It is, in a sense, one for the lawyers, for I recognise that there would be arguments in a court for saying that the Government's present proposal requires the courts to look at the true purpose of the tenancy; but there is this disturbing reference to the right conferred, and I believe that it is by no means clear to the courts that the intention of Parliament will be to prevent these kinds of bogus holiday lettings obtaining exemption. I would therefore urge my formula as making it quite plain that it is the intention of the parties rather than the form of the agreement which is to be looked at.
6.17 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My noble friend is quite right in saying that this is a lawyers' Amendment. I am therefore advised that it would not materially improve the effect of the existing exemptions of holiday lettings. The intention of the Amendment is quite clear; that is, it is designed to prevent landlords from evading the provisions of the Act by claiming that residential lettings are for the purpose of holidays. But this is already achieved in the present exemption by the use of the words, "the purpose of the tenancy". This does not mean the purpose or intention of the landlord or tenant individually, but the facts behind the tenancy agreement entered into by both parties. The fact that a landlord calls a letting a "holiday letting" or persuades his tenant to agree that it is one will not prevent a court, which is the arbiter in such cases, from determining on the basis of the surrounding facts that a residential tenancy exists. The purpose of a letting is a question of fact to be decided by the court on evidence. It is not a question

1205
which can be determined simply by the label given to the tenancy by the landlord or the tenant.
I gather that my noble friend referred to the rent book as being evidence; but I understand that a rent book is not given or required to be given for a holiday letting, so I do not think that this could be used in evidence. I hope that my noble friend will consider what I have said. As lie has said, it is a lawyers' point. My advice is that the position is clear within the present legislation, that it is for the courts themselves to decide the general character of the tenancy and that this does not depend upon what may allegedly have been said either by the landlord or the tenant as to the intention of the tenancy.
LORD HALE: I am sorry to return like a dog to my earlier vomit, but this is precisely the same point once again. What is the test? If there is a rent book, an agreement or a scrap of paper showing that the letting is for a holiday, is that decisive evidence? Does the court decide on that? My noble friend nods his head. I attribute great importance to his nods, though less since he made his unexpected pronouncement about investments. I am quite willing to sell him all mine at the price which I gave for them ten years ago if he would like to have some experience as an investor in Government securities.
What is a holiday? If I may quote an exotic extra-territorial example, is Mr. Ronald Biggs on holiday? He is certainly on vacation; no one can deny that. Indeed, if I may venture to use a quotation from a learned friend of mine, taken from the Latin, the position is not without a certain degree of what he called Fragrant delectation. Biggs has been having a good time. Many people who go on holiday with these wretched travel agencies have a very tough time indeed now.
In the Second Reading debate, a noble Lord made a point which I thought was valid. To put it without arrogance, I think he made one point and might have made two. There is no test of a holiday by the season of the year. Discriminating people go to Cornwall in the winter and not in the high summer.
LORD SOMERS: May I interrupt the noble Lord, Lord Hale, for a second? He realises, of course, that there are such things as "busmen's holidays"? How does he describe those?
LORD HALE: I do not know. I should have to leave that to Miss Dorothy Sayers who dealt with the subject in about 400 pages, and did so ably and very well. If I wanted to extend the discussion, I could talk about people who enjoy the lights of Northern Scotland. I have not seen them for many years. I used to love the country North of the Caledonian Canal, with a little trading in oil, or employment, and so on but not too much, possibly a little stag shooting. But I do not want to let a perfectly serious argument be touched by my frivolity. The noble Lord, Lord Gifford, has put the case very fairly and well.
I was saying that another noble Lord had mentioned the fact that with a genuine letting holiday there is not very much to fear. People from Oldham who go to Torquay do not decide to shack up there, stay a few months and then face the courts. They go back home at the end of the month or fortnight or at the end of the Oldham Wake's Week, or whatever they have. There is a danger and a serious hardship for landlords who let, for temporary residential purposes throughout the winter, cottages which they normally like to occupy themselves while on vacation for part of the summer and let for a fair rent during the rest of the summer. There is a problem there. I can remember being the tenant of a small bungalow in West Road Bridport, a charming and lovely situation, which I got for a very modest sum. It was furnished and I was the tenant, with power to sub-let for holidays. A friend of mine who went down as my guest in September met a charming gentleman in the local pub and let the bungalow for the winter. He said he was sure that I would be glad to have the extra money for the winter, but I was not at all glad, because I know what sometimes happens to furniture when you let to strangers.
Some months later I was playing golf—as I observe that there are no right reverend Prelates here, I might add that it was on a Sunday morning—when a police inspector walked across the course looking hard at me. Being of a frivolous

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turn of mind, I said that he had come to inquire about the Brighton trunk murder. That invasion of my privacy was ended when the police officer said: "I must talk to you, Mr. Hale. I want to talk to you about the Brighton trunk murder. Did you know about that woman to whom you let the bungalow, and did you make any inquiries about her character? Did you know that she has disappeared and we are checking up on all the women who have disappeared from the South Coast?" Perhaps that is not an example which I could quote as one of general application, but it shows some of the problems that may arise.
All the noble Lord, Lord Gifford, has said is, "Shove in a few extra words and make it clear." He has not said, "Detract from your intention." The noble Lord the Lord Privy Seal says that we are in complete agreement as to our objectives. "We want to do that. We think it is unnecessary." I would not like to say how many times I have heard a Minister say that something was unnecessary, and how many times I have seen a Minister go to the Box and say, "On the highest possible advice I am now able to say that this clause is as clear as mud." A few months later the matter goes before the courts, possibly even before the noble and learned Lord, Lord Denning, as Master of the Rolls, who has a great gift for explaining what he thinks of the drafting of both English and foreign law. Many of us always appreciate his comments. But what reason is there why we should not add a few words that help to clarify? Why should we leave it to the judges to say to what extent they are able to define a "holiday", to ask why Parliament did not define a "holiday", and to ask "If Parliament had meant to say this, why did they not say it?"
I apologise for a longer interruption than I had intended, but the noble Lord will have observed that at the moment the courts are moving a little more on the road to deciding that they arc entitled to try to assess what was Parliament's intention. They have always said that they are bound only to assume that Parliament must have had some intention, however indefinable, however incredible, and however inexplicable front the point of view of discernability. They
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have always said, "We cannot look at what was said and we cannot look at what questions were asked, because that would be infringing the privileges of Parliament and would affect a principle of great constitutional importance." Now they are trying to find out whether we mean anything, and if we mean anything why not help them and accept the noble Lord's Amendment, which the Lord Privy Seal has said will make no difference to his intentions?
LORD GIFFORD: If indeed the courts were able to look at the Hansard for this debate, and were able to see in plain terms what my noble friend has said on behalf of the Government, and were then to see that this House plainly intended that the courts were meant to go behind the facts, I would be much more confident in accepting my noble friend's reply and assurance about the advice he received on the likely interpretation of the clause. As it is, of course, the courts cannot look at Hansard by a rule which must soon, I think, be challenged and made redundant. They are not allowed to read the report of this debate. Even so, I hope that my noble friend is right. I appreciate that the matter has been looked at carefully. If my noble friend is wrong, he will find a Private Members' Bill on his hands very quickly, because this matter will certainly come to be tested in the appellate courts in the near future. I am sure we shall see many so-called "holiday lettings" coming up for investigation. But I hope that he is right, and in that hope I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.28 p.m.
BARONESS YOUNG BARONESS YOUNG moved Amendment No. 6:
Page 2, line 35, at end insert—
("(bbbb) the tenancy is for a fixed term certain; or").
The noble Baroness said: In moving this Amendment I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, for the discussion we had on this point and for the long letter which he sent in explanation of it. I do not want to take up the time of the Committee about something on which I know we are all agreed and which, as I understand the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, is a point which is met

1209
in the Bill. But it is important to get this matter on the Record, because the question of letting your house for a given period of time, when you may be away, either serving overseas in the Foreign Office or on sabbatical' leave, or whatever it is, on a fixed-term tenancy and being absolutely sure that you can get it back at the end of the tenancy, is a matter of importance. I raised it originally because, although I am not a lawyer myself, it was put to me by a lawyer that this point was not covered in the Bill. I understand that it is covered by Schedule 3. I have looked at this matter again, and of course I have looked at it in the light of the explanatory letter that the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has sent me.
There is one point that I should like to raise, and I think it is of some importance. If I have understood the position correctly, when an owner-occupier lets his house in this way he must give notice under Section 79; and he may not realise, in the course of the passage of the Bill, that he ought to have given notice in this way. Indeed, I think the last paragraph of the noble Lord's letter indicates that there could be room for someone not being able to repossess his home because he has not served this notice. If I may, I will quote from the letter because I think it will be helpful to everybody to know what the point is:
"I can understand your fears that some people may not be aware of the need in future to serve a notice in order to retain the right to repossess their home, but I think this problem can be overcome. We have already had several inquiries, not only from individuals but also from building societies, Government Departments and an organisation representing many of the large firms which post staff overseas, about these provisions, and in general they seem perfectly satisfied with them".
I am of course very glad to hear that, but I am concerned about the individual who does not really fall into any one of those categories; and I should like the noble Lord to say how he intends to inform those people who wish to let their house about this provision. There are people who, perhaps unwisely, will not have taken legal advice before doing so and who could really find themselves in considerable difficulty when they return, if, by some misfortune, the tenant decides that he wishes to stay on. I am sure that
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the larger organisations will look after their employees, but there could be individuals who might not know about this, and it is for this reason that I should like to have it on the Record. I beg to move.
LORD SHEPHERD: I think that the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, who I see opposite, also raised with me some of the points that the noble Baroness has just mentioned in moving this Amendment. I undertook to seek to reply to the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, on the Question. Whether the clause shall stand part?, and if he is agreeable I shall seek to cover the ground of the noble Baroness, and also, perhaps too, go a little further and deal with a similar point that the noble Lord had in mind.
The Bill already has safeguards for the position of the landlord in two situations—situations in which, I think, everybody would agree that some safeguard is necessary; first, where the owner-occupier lets his own home during a temporary absence and, secondly, where the landlord is resident on the same premises with the tenant. In the first case, the Rent Acts have in the past recognised the right of the temporarily absent owner-occupier to recover possession of his home when he wishes to live there himself.
The Rent Act 1968 provides in Case 10 of Schedule 3 an absolute ground for possession of unfurnished accommodation where the owner-occupier has given written notice at or before the time of the tenancy being granted that possession may be recovered under this Case. Similarly, if the owner-occupier lets his home furnished on a periodic contract and gives written notice under Section 79 of the 1968 Act that he is an owner-occupier within the meaning of that section, and if he then wishes to return to live in his home, the rent tribunal have no power to suspend the operation of the notice to quit which he serves on his tenant. Absentee owner-occupiers who let their homes furnished on fixed-term contracts have of course the right to possession at the end of that term, subject to the requirement to obtain an order for possession from the court before evicting a tenant who has refused to leave at the end of his contract.
The Rent Bill preserves this concession in favour of owner-occupiers who let their homes in their own absence. If the letting is made after commencement date of the

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Bill (one month after Royal Assent), then the owner-occupier who lets furnished will be able to guarantee that he can regain possession by serving a Case 10 notice. The Bill also makes provisions preserving the rights of absent owner-occupiers who have let furnished before the Bill comes into force, either under the Section 79 procedure or on a fixed-term contract.
There will be nothing in future to prevent an owner-occupier from using letting on fixed-term contract so long as he also satisfies the notice procedure. Indeed, this method would best suit those people who know for certain how long it will be before they require their homes again, in particular those such as members of the Armed Forces or the Diplomatic Service who are posted away for a fixed tour of duty. Their position will then in practice be the same as it is now. The tenant will be aware that the owner-occupier has an absolute right to repossession, as he has now, and that he therefore has no right to continued occupation of the dwelling-house when the contract ends. There should therefore be no question of a tenant of an absent owner-occupier remaining in occupation in an attempt to claim statutory protection. Where the tenant does not move out in time, the owner will of course have to go to the court for a possession order, but this is true in the existing situation, and it will, as of now, be open to the owner-occupier to apply to the court for an expedited hearing if he requires his home urgently.
The noble Baroness asked how this position can he made known to those who wish to let property. I hope that a landlord letting property on this basis would consult either with a lawyer or with any of the bodies that provide information to the general public. But I think that the Bill as drafted is just about right in this respect. The noble Lord, Lord Bethell, intended to ask me what the position was about visiting diplomats, Ambassadors or High Commissioners, who may occupy furnished accommodation in London. My understanding is that if they occupy the premises and the tenancy is in the name of the Embassy or of the country, then they have no rights at all. Nor, of course, do the country or the Embassy have rights, because they are a body; they are not an individual who will have a place
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of occupation. The position is the same in the case of companies: companies cannot be occupiers of residential accommodation. I do not think that the noble Lord need be concerned about these people or about the landlord who may be letting accommodation to that class of person.
LORD BETHELL: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, for what he has said, which certainly goes some way towards answering the doubt which is in many people's minds on this matter of tenants who come from abroad as representatives of foreign countries, and from foreign companies. I must immediately declare an interest in that I am the owner of a number of furnished flats which I let. In the case of none of these flats, I may say, do I think that I am providing a home for anyone. In Central London there are very large numbers of flats (a high proportion in Central London) which are not homes but which are provided for people such as those I have just mentioned, and for transients of various other categories. It would be a very serious problem if this Bill were in any way to restrict the supply of these flats which are made available to transients whether they come from abroad or, for that matter, from this country.
The noble Lord has said that provided agreements are drawn up in the name of a company or in the name of an embassy, the occupier will not have the protection under the proposed Bill. But I wonder whether he can say what would be the situation if, as is sometimes the case, the existing agreement happens to be in the name of the individual concerned? Suppose a counsellor at a certain embassy has taken a furnished flat in his own name. As I understand it, he will have security of tenure under the Bill. He will probably be paying an extremely high rent for his flat because such representatives demand large flats where they have to do entertaining; they have furniture of an extremely high standard—not the few sticks of furniture which the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has referred to several times, but furniture costing several thousands of pounds. He is paying a high rent, very often in excess of £100 a week. Will he, if he has signed an agreement in his name, be able to go to the rent officer in order to have his

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rent reduced? If, for one reason or another—and anything can happen in any country, as we know from recent experience—he decides to remain in London and not to return to his country, will he have security of tenure at a reduced rent? Will he be able to turn his company- or embassy-acquired flat into his home under this Bill? If that is the case, does not the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, feel that some amendment is called for in the Bill which will prevent such a state of affairs from happening?
LORD AVEBURY: I am sorry to have come in during the middle of the noble Lord's speech, but would not such accommodation as he has mentioned be outside the rateable value limits for protection?
LORD BETHELL: It would not. I remember speaking on the debate a year or so ago when rateable value limits for unfurnished accommodation were raised to their present levels. I think I am right in saying that the Government spokesman at that time said that there were only 7,000 residential units in the whole country which would not be protected under the proposed legislation. I can give the noble Lord a concrete example from my own experience, and that is that there are flats being let now at rents of over £100 a week—and this is by no means extortionate or exorbitant according to the market value—which have a rateable value under the new scale of less than £1,000 There are very few in central London that have a rateable value of more than £1,500.
LORD SHEPHERD: I can give only a short answer to the noble Lord. If it is within the rateable value as defined in the Bill, and if the tenancy is in the name of the individual—not the company or the country—then the answer is "yes" he does come within the ambit of the Bill with all the rights and privileges that go with it. It may sound slightly iniquitous, particularly to the embassy or the company concerned, but that may be a consequence of their own failing for having allowed an employee to enter into a tenancy on their behalf and putting it in that individual's name. But the noble Lord asked me a question and the answer is the one that I have given, yes he will.
LORD BETHELL: I asked the noble Lord another question, which was: did
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he not think that it was wrong that such an employee should be able to take advantage of the proposed Bill and remain in his accommodation at a reduced rent which he might have negotiated with the rent officer when in fact he took the flat for an entirely different purpose?
LORD SHEPHERD: Fair or not, I do not see how we can get over the difficulty. I do not see how one can draft legislation to deal with these odd, and I should think very rare, cases. If there is any mistake, I suppose it must lie with the company or the country concerned which may have lost valuable property which they will probably need to replace for some new employee coming in. And clearly, too, for the landlords, in taking a very high rent probably knowing that it is a rent well beyond an individual and a rent that could be paid only by a Government or by a company, they took the risk. I must admit it may be that they did not know that a Bill of this nature was likely, but I am sorry I cannot be more helpful to the noble Lord. I do not see a way round this particular difficulty.
LORD BETHELL: May I very briefly suggest a way in which the noble Lord might find a way round this difficulty: that is, by accepting my Amendments Nos. 10A, B, C and D.
LORD MELCHETT: I am not entirely clear why we should try to see a way round this. If a landlord has a tenant who is paying a rent, albeit perhaps a lower rent than the landlord would like—but that applies to most tenants—if the rent officer has been asked to fix a rent he will fix a fair rent. He will not fix too low a rent or one that is unfair to the landlord. I do not see any reason why the noble Lord's fiats, just because they happen to be let to people who he does not expect to stay there, should be unprotected rather than any other tenancies.
BARONESS YOUNG: If I may say so, as I think that originally we were speaking to my Amendment. I understand the fears of my noble friend Lord Bethell. Of course this is another group of people, and no doubt a group of people with whom I am not as familiar as he is, who visit London for diplomatic or business purposes and who need, while they are

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here, somewhere to stay. I talked about people who are, as it were, transients at the other end of the scale, students who come and go. But there are large groups of people, and I think my noble friend Lord Bethell has raised a real point. I do not know whether the Government have discussed this matter with the Foreign Office and what effect they think this could have. But I can well see that this could create great difficulties.
That leads me to my second point. I am grateful for the explanation given by the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, about fixed-term tenancies. I am referring now to where an owner-occupier lets his own house for a period of time. It is helpful to have this on the Record. But as both these cases have illustrated, this is a difficult Bill to understand. It will apply to a great many individuals and I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, will give an assurance that a simplified version setting out these main points will be available immediately the Bill becomes law, and available very widely because there will be an enormous number of people affected by it. We are working, as I said originally, to a very tight timetable and it is difficult enough for anybody who has spent, as I have no doubt all of us taking part in this debate have spent, days trying to understand it, let alone someone who is suddenly confronted with this situation and has only the Act to work on.
LORD SHEPHERD: I will certainly respond to the noble Baroness and will see what I can say at a later stage of the Bill in regard to information and publicity. I agree with her that a simplified explanation of the new provisions would not only be justified for the landlords concerned, but also for the tenants. I shall certainly look at this point.
BARONESS YOUNG: I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Clause 3 [Recovery of possession of holiday accommodation let on out-of-season tenancies]:
6.48 p.m.
BARONESS YOUNG BARONESS YOUNG moved Amendment No. 7:
Page 3, leave out from beginning of line 15 to ("the") in line 17 and insert—
"( ) In Part 11 of Schedule 3 to the Rent Act 1968 (Cases in which court must order possession of dwelling-house subject to regulated tenancy)—

(a) in the first line of Case 10 after the word 'occupied' there shall be inserted the words 'or intended to occupy' and after the word 'his' there shall be inserted the word 'principal', and

(b)".

The noble Baroness said: On behalf of my noble friend Lord Kinnoull I should like to move this Amendment. I must apologise to the Committee as he has only just asked me to do so. He says that it raises a technical point to which he would like an answer. I have not had an opportunity to look at it myself, having seen the Amendment only today, but if the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has the answer I hope that he will be able to give it.
LORD SHEPHERD: I am only seeking clarification, Which Amendment is it? Like the noble Baroness I have just received a piece of paper. Is it "Page 3, leave out from beginning of line 15"?
BARONESS YOUNG: Yes.
LORD SHEPHERD: The effect of this Amendment would be to amend Case 10 of Schedule 3 to the Rent Act 1968 so as to allow a person who has not occupied a dwelling-house as his residence but who intends to do so, to claim an absolute right to repossession if he has let that dwelling-house on a protected tenancy and he wishes to Occupy it himself. At present of course, the absolute right to possession under Case 10 only applies if the landlord had previously lived in the dwelling-house himself.
I have some sympathy with the situation which I assume the noble Lord and the noble Baroness are concerned about: that is the position of the person who buys a house for his use, but before he occupies it, lets it for a time. Such a person might himself be living in tied accommodation—if, for example, he is a schoolmaster or a minister of religion—or he might have bought the house in advance of his retirement from a job in another part of the country. But I do not think we can make any concession in favour of such genuine cases without running the grave risk of presenting

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opportunities for abuse by the unscrupulous. It would be all too easy for a landlord to claim that he intends to occupy a house as his residence at some undefined time in the future, when what lie is really doing is trying to avoid the Act. I do not think that the addition of the word "principal" before the word "residence" would add much force to the case in these circumstances.
There is of course a ground for possession already in the Rent Act in Case 8 on which a landlord can apply to the court if he reasonably requires the dwelling-house occupied by the tenant for his own occupation or that of a member of his family. It is not an absolute ground for possession; that means that the court must be satisfied that it is reasonable to make the order and that, having regard to the circumstances, no more hardship would be caused to the tenant by granting the order than to the landlord by refusing it.
These provisions seem to me to offer would-be owner-occupiers the opportunity to gain possession of previously let accommodation for their own use without exposing tenants to the insecurity which would result from the introduction of an Amendment on the lines suggested. I hope the noble Baroness will feel, having had that explanation, that she might now leave it to her noble friend Lord Kinnoull to read what I have said and to decide whether it is satisfactory.
LORD AVEBURY: I do not know whether the noble Lord has any information regarding cases of the kind he mentioned, where a schoolmaster or a minister of religion, for example, has acquired a property with a view to his retirement in two or three years' time and has let it to a tenant, having given clear notice to that tenant that he will require the property when he reaches the age of 65. Has there been any case where landlords of this kind have had difficulty in obtaining possession in the courts? If the noble Lord could reassure us on that, I am sure it would help to reassure everybody.
LORD SHEPHERD: I do not think there has been any difficulty under the previous legislation, but of course we are now moving into the more difficult area of furnished accommodation. I will look to see whether serious cases of this kind
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are on record. I am not aware of them myself, but I will certainly see whether I can give the noble Baroness and the noble Lord any information on this matter. I think I can give an assurance to the noble Lord that there have been no notable difficulties in this matter.
BARONESS YOUNG: I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, for that reply. This is a quite specific point which concerns a number of people. Here, of course, we are all concerned only with bona fide cases of people who decide to buy a house for their retirement a few years early and would expect to occupy it when they retire. I think it would be very helpful to us all to read what the noble Lord has said; and if he could write to me when he writes to the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, on this point I am sure this would clarify the situation. Then, if any points arise we can raise them on Report. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
6.57 p.m.
LORD GIFFORD LORD GIFFORD moved Amendment No. 8:
Page 3, line 27, at beginning insert ("bona fide"3.
The noble Lord said: I beg leave to move Amendment No. 8 and to speak at the same time to Amendment No. 9. which has the same effect. This deals with the clause with the rubric:
"Recovery of possession of holiday accommodation let on out-of-season tenancies".
From that rubric I see at once what is envisaged; namely, that landlords of holiday accommodation should be able, without fear of granting a protected tenancy, to grant tenancies in the off season. The trouble is that the terms of the clause do not talk about "out-of-season" tenancies at all but, I suggest, go dangerously wide. If a landlord gives a notice under the proposed Case 10A before granting an 8-month tenancy, all he has to prove if he wishes to get automatic possession at the end of it is that at some time in the previous 12 months before he granted the tenancy somebody occupied the dwelling-house under a right to occupy it for a holiday, no matter for how short a time it may have been. A friend of the landlord may testify, quite truthfully, that he occupied this dwelling-house for a weekend, having come to London from

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the North. The real purpose of that weekend holiday may have been to enable the landlord to raise the circumstances which he could later utilise under Case 10A.
There is no reference here to the purpose of the tenancy, as there was (a fact which was relied upon by my noble friend) in Clause 2. Provided it can be shown that somebody occupied it for some time under a holiday letting in order to have a holiday, the tenant who would not know about these matters loses his protection. Indeed, if an unscrupulous landlord—and the noble Lord referred to these a moment ago—were to bring forward a friend to bear false witness that he had spent a holiday for a week or a fortnight in the dwelling-house, the tenant would not be able to dispute it or disprove it in any way since he would have no means of verifying the situation. I have sought to introduce an element of good faith ("bona fide") into this case. It may not be the best way to do what I suggest is needed, to distinguish between the kind of accommodation referred to in the rubric to the clause and the unscrupulous letting of "normal" accommodation—that is to say, not seaside or holiday accommodation—by a landlord who wants at a later stage to be able to turn out a tenant who asks for a decrease in rent or perhaps complains about the state of repair of the property. I beg to move.
LORD SHEPHERD: I have looked at this Amendment with care. I would assure my noble friend that it will be necessary for the dwelling-house to have been occupied within the previous year under a right to occupy for a holiday. This method of preventing abuse of the position was chosen in preference to a method which required the landlord to produce proof that he had entered into future books for holiday use of the accommodation, as it would be difficult to devise an adequate test on which the court could make a judgment which would not be a disincentive to landlords to continue the practice of out-of-season letting.
My advice is that the insertion of the words "bona fide" would in the context add nothing to paragraph (b) of Case
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10A. The paragraph refers to the dwelling-house having been
"occupied under a right to occupy it for a holiday".
This can only mean a genuine right, and if in any case there is any dispute, it would be for the courts to decide whether such a right was granted, or the transaction was merely tolerable. The words "bona fide" do not appear in Section 75(5) of the Rent Act 1968, which provides that no right to occupy a dwelling for a holiday shall be treated for the purpose of Part VI of that Act as a right to occupy it as a resident. The abolition of these words were not considered necessary. They are no more necessary in Case 10A, and indeed to insert them here, when they do not appear in Section 70(5), would only be likely to give rise to questions in the court, as the noble Lord, Lord Gifford, as a barrister, will appreciate. I have looked into the matter and I do not believe the inclusion of the words would materially affect the Bill as drafted.
LORD GIFFORD: I accept what my noble friend has said, but there is a difference between Case 10A and Clause 2, and, indeed, Section 70(5) of the Rent Act 1968, to which my noble friend referred. In Clause 2 and Section 70(5) we are dealing with the purpose of the tenancy granted to a tenant—that is to say, was the tenant intending to have a holiday? He can give evidence as to what his real intentions were. In Case 10A one is dealing with a right conferred upon somebody else some 12 months or so before the tenancy begins. Even if the main purpose of allowing the person who occupied it 12 months before was to avoid the Rent Acts, if that person had a week's holiday in the dwelling-house it does not matter whether or not the real intention was to set up the case and thereby avoid the Rent Acts. I am rather distressed that there is not any element of either good faith or even reference to purpose. I do not want to spend any more time on this, but I hope my noble friend will look at it again before the Bill finally leaves your Lordships' House. It seems to me that this is a different case from the cases envisaged in Clause 2 which we have discussed.
LORD SHEPHERD: I am happy to respond to my noble friend. I will look

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at this again, and if an Amendment is necessary I will see what steps can be taken to introduce it at a later stage.
LORD GIFFORD: I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Whether Clause 3 shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD SHEPHERD: If noble Lords wish to raise matters on Clause 3, I suggest we leave them until after dinner, if that would he convenient to Members of the Committee.
LORD STRABOLGI: I beg to move that the House do now resume.
On Question, Motion agreed to and House resumed accordingly.

FARRIERS (REGISTRATION) BILL [H.L.]
7.5 p.m.
LORD NEWALL: My Lords, noble Lords who have listened to me recently will realise that I do not believe in speaking at any great length, and I do not intend to make any great change this evening. However, I thought I should say a few words because my Amendment was put down and I was moved to reply to certain regional criticisms.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt, but I think the noble Lord's first step is that he should move, "That the Report be now received".
LORD NEWALL: I beg your Lordships' pardon. I beg to move that the Report be now received.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Report received.
LORD NEWALL LORD NEWALL moved Amendment No. 1.
After clause 17 insert the following new clause:
("Exclusion of specified areas.

(1) The Secretary of State may by order made from time to time with respect to any specified part of Great Britain provide that for such period as may be prescribed by the order Section 16 of this Act shall not apply to the part of Great Britain to which the order relates.

(2) Any order made under this section shall be made by statutory instrument which shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.

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(3) Before making any order under this section with respect to any specified part of Great Britain the Secretary of State shall consult such bodies as appear to him to be representative of the interests of farriers, of owners of horses and of animal welfare within that part of Great Britain and any other organisation which in the circumstances he considers it proper to consult.

(4) Notice of the making of any order under this section shall be published by the Secretary of State, if the order relates in whole or in part to England or Wales, in the London Gazette and, if the order relates in whole or in part to Scotland, in the Edinburgh Gazette."

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I put down this Amendment because I have been moved to reply to certain regional criticisms which have been levelled against the Bill, possibly in good faith, although naturally some opinions are better informed than others. It has been represented that there may be some geographical problems. In view of that, I have put down this Amendment in order to enable the Secretary of State to make an order to exclude any part of the Nation after appropriate and due consultation. Possibly I discovered the solution because I was reminded of young Lochinvar who probably had the best-shod steed North of the Border! But, after talking to various people who raised objections, I now have the support of every part of the country geographically speaking. Therefore, I do not think that there is anything more to be said. Anybody who is interested has probably read the Amendment, and I hope that they are generally in agreement.
LORD ALLERTON: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friends the noble Lords, Lord Margadale and Lord Burton, and the noble Viscount, Lord Thurso, I wish to express our gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Newall, for the inclusion of this new clause in the Bill. It is unfortunate that my noble friends are unable to be here this evening owing to inescapable engagements elsewhere. During the Committee stage of the Bill the noble Lord, Lord Newall, undertook to look again at some of the points to which we objected. This he has done, the new clause has been drafted and we have found the result to be acceptable. We wish him well regarding the further passage of the Bill.
LORD WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Newall, will not think I am being unhelpful, but

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to some extent this Amendment makes a nonsense of the Bill as a whole. Clause 16 has the effect of making it an offence for an unregistered person after the appointed day either to carry out any farriery or to claim to be a farrier. This is the real purpose of the Bill. The proviso to subsection (1) makes certain exceptions to the absolute prohibition on an unregistered person carrying out farriery. The new clause which has just been moved, (subsection (1)) would enable the Secretary of State by order to disapply the effect of Clause 16 in a specified part of Great Britain for such period as may be prescribed. Subsection (2) provides that such an order shall be made by statutory instrument subject to the negative resolution procedure. Subsection (3) specifies that the Secretary of State shall before making such an order consult such bodies as he thinks represent the interests of local farriers, horse owners or animal welfare, and any other organisation appropriate to the particular circumstances. Subsection (4) requires the Secretary of State to publish notice of such an Order in the relevant Gazette.
The noble Lord, and your Lordships, will know that there was certain criticism of the Bill on Second Reading. It did not adequately deal with the remote areas of the country, such as the Highlands and Islands, where qualified farriers are few and far between. In Committee, two Amendments were proposed to remedy this difficulty: one by Lord Margadale, Viscount Thurso, Viscount Massereene and Ferrard and Lord Strathclyde, to remove the absolute prohibition on unregistered persons from carrying out farriery. This, as the noble Lord knows, was withdrawn. The other Amendment, by Viscount Thurso, Lord Allerton, Lord Burton and Lord Strathclyde, to remove Scotland from the Bill, as your Lordships will recall, was defeated. The Worshipful Company's solution to the difficulty is to offer the Secretary of State power to disapply the Act in particular regions. In Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Newall, moved a new clause similar in intention to, but different in points of detail from, this one. He withdrew it when Viscount Thurso and Lord Burton criticised it on points of detail. He had undertaken to discuss with Lord Margadale and Viscount Thurso the difficulties of the
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remoter areas, and in withdrawing the Amendment he reiterated the undertaking, as he reminded us this evening.
The new clause which he is now moving makes alterations of detail which were suggested or implied by the critics of the earlier version in Committee. Specifically, it sets no arbitrary time limit on the Order and restricts the Secretary of State's freedom of consultation only in general terms. I do not see how this Amendment is more acceptable than the earlier version. It could be said that the new clause provided a solution to the difficulties that could arise in the remoter areas, or in areas where farriers were temporarily lacking. It has the merit of enabling the provisions of the Bill, at least in theory, to be applied flexibly and to respond to a local situation. But we must face the fact that it has some serious defects.
In the first place, to set up a compulsory registration scheme for anyone who wishes to carry out farriery, and then to make provision for the scheme to be ineffective for apparently unlimited periods over possibly large areas of the country, suggests a certain lack of confidence in the sponsors about the likely effect of the Bill. Furthermore, to make it possible, for substantial periods, for persons to carry out farriery in a particular part of the country without being registered somewhat weakens the assertion, which is central to the sponsor's case for the Bill, that a compulsory registration scheme is essential if more farriers are to be recruited—this would appear to be the central point and purpose of the Bill. If that is so, how will farriers be recruited in the areas—Scotland, for example, which is the case in point at the present moment—where an Order under the new clause is in effect?
On a practical level, one must face the fact that the machinery for disapplying the Bill in a particular area is likely to be very slow to take effect. The processes of observing a shortage, detecting its effect, drawing it to the attention of the Secretary of State, the resulting consultation and the making of the Statutory Instrument are likely to be protracted. It could take a long time accurately to assess a situation in a particular area. Certainly, the procedure could not deal with a temporary shortage of farriers

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caused, for example, by ill health. Moreover, it seems likely that the issues that will have to be determined by the Secretary of State before making an Order will be of considerable difficulty. The new clause allows an Order to apply in any part of Great Britain. There would be no difficulty in defining a part of Great Britain by reference to existing territorial areas, such as Scotland or Cornwall or some other defined area, or even a magistrates' court area, but an area served by a farrier or by a number of farriers is not likely to be coterminous with any existing boundaries such as those of Scotland or boundaries of a local authority or, for that matter, the limits of a petty sessional division.
How, then, is the part of Great Britain to which an Order is to apply to be defined? Further, how will the Secretary of State determine how long the Order is to be in operation? If there is a shortage of farriers in a large area, how will those whom he is to consult know when the shortage is likely to cease? The difficulty, I appreciate, would be mitigated, but not removed, if there were power to vary or revoke an Order. But presumably it is not contemplated that the Secretary of State should make an Order for an unlimited period. He would certainly be placed in an extremely awkward position if he were required to render inoperative for a substantial period of time an Act of Parliament which the noble Lord is asking Parliament to enact for the whole country. This is the whole purpose of the Bill: to lay down certain defined regulations, requirements, to be applied to the country as a whole, and not piecemeal, whatever the circumstances and whatever the reasons.
Lastly, having a differential application of the law within different parts of England or Wales or Scotland must of necessity produce problems of enforcement. On balance, I am bound to say that the disadvantages of this new clause seem substantially to outweigh its merits. The question of the practical effect of the application of the Bill across the country as a whole is undoubtedly one to which the sponsors, if I may say so with respect, could give more consideration. I am fully aware of the desire of the noble Lord to get this matter through the House in order to get it to
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another place; one understands that. But there is considerable merit in getting the Bill right in this House, so that it may receive an easier or speedy passage in another place. Having considered this matter, and, I hope, having given your Lordships a fair impression of how the Government see this issue, I contend that this is an Amendment which quite seriously undermines the whole purpose of the Bill. The whole purpose of the Bill, as the Government understand it, is to produce more farriers and to have an effective registration. I would ask the noble Lord not to press this Amendment but, in the light of what I have said, to look at the matter again.
7.19 p.m.
LORD WIGG: My Lords, I should be much obliged if either the Minister or the noble Lord, Lord Newall, could clear up one point for me. The Amendment contains the words "the Secretary of State". Clause 19 states:
"This Act shall come into operation.. as the Secretary of State"—
et cetera. When I look at the interpretation clause, I see that "the Secretary of State" is not defined. If it had said, "a Secretary of State", of whom there are many, I could understand, but the Minister speaks as if it is a certainty that the Secretary is the Secretary of State for the Home Department; yet it seems to me that the Amendment which we are now considering on Report has been specifically designed to deal with Scotland. How the Secretary of State for the Home Department can make an Order to deal with Scotland is beyond me. On Second Reading I made the point that this Bill had gone up one side of Whitehall and down the other because there was not a natural home for it, that eventually it went round and round in circles in the Home Office and landed up with the Department which deals with cruelty to animals because there was no other Department to deal with it.
I make the point in passing that I thing the House owes a debt of gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Newall, for his interest in the Bill and for giving it an airing. But let us recognise that even if it passes your Lordships' House tonight and subsequently receives a Third Reading, that is the end of it; it is a cul-de-sac because Private Members' time has run

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out in another place. I would suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Newall, that he takes advantage of the triumph which he has achieved and that he should not push his luck.
The facts are that this Bill should not have been handled by the Home Office. I say that with great respect to the Minister and with great respect to his Department. They are not in the least qualified to deal with a Bill of this kind. This Bill should have been dealt with by the Ministry of Agriculture. For that to happen, there has to be a change of policy in Whitehall because many years ago the decision was taken for better or worse—and I think very much for the worse—that the horse should no longer be considered an economic animal. Consequently, when this Bill saw the light of day and went to the Ministry of Agriculture, they said, "Nothing doing; we're not going to have it, because we are not concerned with expenditure on horses. We have no responsibility for horses. Horses are not matters that concern us."
Just to show how far off beam we are in the remarks which have been made so far. it would appear that this Bill deals with Scotland. But what about Middlesex? I do not have the resources to be certain that my researches are accurate, but as I understand it the total number of farriers in the County of Middlesex is two, and the truth of it is that so far no Department in Whitehall knows how many horses there are. They are not absolutely sure how many farriers there are and they are not sure where they are distributed. That is not a good starting point.
What I think Lord Newall has done is to give the Bill an airing. It will not go any further. What he should now do, and I would join my voice with his, is to press the Government to reconsider the position of all horses—the horses in which I am interested and the horses in which other people are interested and to regard the horse as an economic animal. This would have very far-reaching results. At once it would impose upon the Ministry of Agriculture the duty to do what Lord Newall has done, because if the horse is treated as it should be treated and as it is treated by all our partners in the European Economic Community—that is, as an economic animal—then the
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Minister of Agriculture would do something about the training of farriers and would recognise as Lord Newall and his friends recognise, the very difficult situation of getting one's lad placed with farriers. After the lad has had six months' training he can then walk out of the farrier's shop and proclaim to the world, "I am a farrier" and take half of his master's customers with him. In those circumstances, one can understand the master farriers being loath to take on apprentices until they are quite sure that there is going to be a registration scheme and only competent people shall engage in the art of farriery.
I introduced the point about the Secretary of State so as to be enlightened about this point. As it stands, I am completely bewildered by the Amendment in the Bill, but I do not press it. I say that this Bill has gone as far as it will ever go—and perhaps I ought to say in its present form as far as it should go—but that Lord Newall has done much and that he could do much more if he would agree now to withdraw his Bill, either at this stage or at Third Reading, and in the meantime plead, as I am now pleading, that the Minister should talk to his colleagues in his own Department and that the Secretary of State for the Home Department should talk to the Secretary of State for Agriculture and say to him: "Look, chum, this is not my problem. It should not be in the Home Office at all, or in the Scottish Office, although we are all concerned. This problem belongs to you, and it belongs to you not only because of the horse and not only because of farriery but because of the effect it has on veterinary science". We lag behind all of the countries in Western Europe. The Swan Committee has been sitting for years and still has not reported. If that were done, then Lord Newall would have achieved great things with the Bill because he would have got the Government to bring this country into line with the rest of the Common Market countries so that money could be spent not only upon farriery but upon veterinary education.
7.28 p.m.
LORD HELSBY: My Lords, as one of those who has taken a great interest in the Bill as it has gone through its stages in your Lordship's House, I should be

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glad to accept the advice which the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, has suggested if I thought that the Bill, having been taken away, further examined and made the subject of further consultation, could be improved in some substantial respect. I am bound to say that I am not clear about how it could be improved. It suffers from the inevitable difficulty that it is trying to cope with two quite different kinds of problem—the short term and the long term.
We are all agreed on what we want to see in the long term. We want to get rid of the present system under which apprentices break their apprenticeship early on because they see that they can earn a much better living by hiring a van and going round presenting themselves as fully competent to shoe horses. We all know that this is happening up and down the country and that it causes a good deal of damage to horses and infuriates the owners of horses. But if we are to get rid of that long-term problem by insisting upon proper training and registration, surely it is inevitable that in the short run some alleviation, some coming to terms with the harsh realities of the present bad situation, should be permitted.
I cannot see that there is anything wrong with the Amendment of Lord Newall. Indeed, for my part I should be very willing to support it. It is true that it does make things a little untidy. It admits that in certain parts of the country there may be, in the short run, a need for special arrangements to get one through to the period when full registration can be insisted upon and the intentions of the Bill fully carried out. But that kind of makeshift arrangement is probably inevitable, and I do not see why we should not accept it. It is true that in its original form the Amendment was a little tidier when it specified a period of up to five years, but who is to know until the circumstances of the situation are examined whether the right period is three years, or five years, or six years? We would all accept that it cannot be much longer.
Indeed if a longer remission of the application of the full Bill were allowed it would gain in its effect by not drawing the attention of those concerned to the fact that the Bill would be applied before long and that those who had not
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received proper training, and had not qualified themselves to register within that period, would be out of it. So for my part I would wish to support the Amendment rather than see the Bill thrown out on the basis that this is too untidy. We must accept that there must be an untidiness in the short run if we are to achieve the better regulation of the farriery trade in the long run.
VISCOUNT THURSO: My Lords, I am very glad that I managed to reach your Lordships' House just as the noble Lord, Lord Allerton, was rising to support the Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Newall. I was interested in the points put by the noble Lord, Lord Wigg. In the first place, the noble Lord, Lord Newall, and all of us have been advised by Parliamentary draftsmen that the proper terminology is "The Secretary of State" whether one means one Secretary of State in particular, or all Secretaries of State in general, and that this is common usage which would cover the appropriate Secretary of State in the circumstances. Therefore, I do not think this is a flaw in the Amendment.
I accept and greatly agree with the point made by the noble Lord. Lord Wigg, that the horse should be regarded as an economic animal. This is a matter of some importance and one on which, if the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, will give the necessary leadership, there are many of your Lordship's House who will follow. But it will not in itself register farriers, and at the moment we are discussing the Farriers (Registration) Bill and the Amendment which the noble Lord, Lord Newall, has tabled to it.
I rise to support that Amendment, because it seems to me that it removes the objection which I and the noble Lords, Lord Margadale, Lord Allerton and Lord Burton, and various other noble Lords had to the Bill as it was originally brought to your Lordships' House, the objection being that we did not feel that in areas so remote as Scotland, Wales and perhaps certain other parts of the British Isles—for instance, possibly the Dales and parts of Cornwall—simple registration of farriers would do much to help.
We accept the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Newall, that in recruiting more farriers it is important to raise the status of the farrier and to protect the master

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farrier from the apprentice who runs off after six months, and so on. That might happen in the more populous districts, or in districts where there are people with a skill similar to farriery, who might come out at weekends and offer a shoddy, cut-price job to the unsuspecting horseowner. But we do not feel that this argument applies in the rural areas and we have great confidence in the Secretary of State, of whatever Government it may be and for whatever Department he may be responsible.
We feel that, on the whole, this country has been well served by Secretaries of State, who are men of certain discrimination and knowledge and are backed by knowledgeable advisers. Therefore, we feel that if we put this discretion into the hands of the Secretary of State it will be well and wisely used. We may be wrong; it may be that Secretaries of State are particularly foolish people, but we do not believe this to be so. We feel that to give them discretion is no bad thing in any Bill. To give them a period of five years and tie them down to this period is not a good thing, because the problem may be solved in less than five years or may not be solved in seven or even ten years in the more remote areas of Britain. Therefore we accept that the Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Newall, meets the point of criticism which we put during the earlier stages of this Bill.
The criticisms put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, reminded me of a fairy tale by the brothers Grimm, called The Three Sillies, where the young man's fianceé sat below the axe in the rafters, while the beer poured on to the floor, weeping at the thought that the axe might fall on his yet unborn child's head. This Amendment has been put forward in order to solve—and, indeed, it seems to us to solve it—the problem of the remoter areas by giving discretion to Secretaries of State. I do not feel that this is a foolish thing to do, or that it turns the Bill round the other way. It merely postpones the taking effect of certain parts of the Bill in certain areas but it does not postpone the registration of farriers within those districts. It merely does not enforce it by law. My Lords, I most certainly support this Amendment.
LORD NEWALL: My Lords, as the sponsor of the Bill, I wonder whether I may have leave to speak again. I shall not detain your Lordships long and, obviously, I am grateful for the support that I have received. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Wigg, for his opinion which I am always pleased to hear, although I cannot agree that this Bill has gone as far as it can or should go. But I think I should speak in reply only to the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell; and I agree wholeheartedly with everything said by the noble Viscount, Lord Thurso, although I have not seen him for a very long time because I think he has been on some canal or other.
It is a fairy tale to think that all horses and all horse owners are exactly the same. This Bill has been put forward for the benefit of the horses, the horse owners, the farriers and nobody else, and all the interested parties are in agreement that this should happen. I have kept the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, very much informed of everything that I have been doing and he has now sprung a small surprise on me with the advice of his advisers. I am very sorry that this has happened, but I cannot agree with him that this will mess up the Bill. He knows full well, as has already been stated this evening, that the Amendment is tabled for the benefit of peculiar parts of the country. If the Secretary of State thinks they are peculiar enough, there will be a temporary measure to alleviate any problems that can arise from having to have registration at a certain time.
One must realise, if one has registration, that with any luck one will definitely get more farriers coming forward. It will be a proper craft recognised by law. If there is an area which is excluded temporarily, it will not necessarily benefit it if the Secretary of State thinks that it should be omitted, because the point is that the circumstances are probably such that there will be a great many part-time farriers and no full-time farriers at all. We all know that those part-time farriers will probably not register immediately, and we accept that fact. But we want it to be a workable law if we can get it on to the Statute Book.
Therefore, if this Amendment is accepted we know that there will be some farriery available as a temporary measure

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and during that time, when a certain part of the country is omitted, the people in all the horse bodies—and the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, now knows that there are a great many horse bodies—will all do their very best to see that some farriery is available. But it should not necessarily be that in a peculiar part, where everything is rather wild and woolly, there are no farriers at all. I think it should be a possibility, and I accept that the Secretary of State will have enough knowledge and experience to get advice from the proper people and make a good judgment. I therefore ask the noble Lord, Lord Wells-Pestell, to review his remarks considerably, because I think he will find that it is not messy, any more than horses in themselves are messy.
LORD WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, with the leave of the House I should like to make a comment or two on what the noble Lord, Lord Newall, has said. But before doing so, may I say to my noble friend Lord Wigg that my understanding of the position is that this is the normal way for the phrase, "Secretary of State" to be used. I believe I am right in saying that the Minister for Agriculture is not a Secretary of State and therefore, as the noble Viscount said, the right terminology has been used.
The noble Lord, Lord Newall, may not think so, but the Government have tried from the beginning to be helpful and to make what we hoped were constructive observations. What I have said this evening to your Lordships was intended to be of some assistance. With my noble friend Lord Wigg, I think it is desirable that if this Bill is to get on the Statute Book it should go from here with the best possible phraseology and wording, and should be as watertight as possible. I am bound to say that the original purpose of the Bill commanded a good deal of merit and support from all sides of the House. It was intended to see that, unless they were skilled and competent and possessed certain qualifications, persons should not be permitted to practise the art—and I use the word "art" advisedly—of farriery.
I am not wishing to be harsh or unkind when I say that this Amendment makes nonsense to some extent of the original intention of the Bill. Among the original intentions of the Bill was the intention
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not only to register farriers and ensure that only competent farriers were let loose on horses, but also to provide, by registration, an inducement, an incentive, to people to come forward to train, the reason being that there is a recognised shortage of farriers. My noble friend Lord Wigg asked how many there are, but I do not think we really know. The figure possibly varies between 1,200 and 1,600—it depends on what sort of periodical you read. We know that there is a shortage, and if there are to be quite substantial areas in the United Kingdom—at the moment, we are talking only about Scotland—
LORD NEWALL: My Lords, we have not mentioned Scotland in the Amendment. We are not talking of any area in particular, nor are we talking about an especially large area. We are talking about an area which the Secretary of State thinks should be excluded. It can be a tiny area and is to be excluded only temporarily.
LORD WELLS-PESTELL: My Lords, the noble Lord must bear in mind that I must go on the evidence before the House. The evidence before the House during the Committee stage was that this problem is to be found mainly, if not entirely, in Scotland. The exemption of these areas does not appear to encourage people to train for farriery. I do not think it will encourage them to become registered. I cannot see that if the House accepts this Amendment it will help the main purpose of the Bill, which is to have registered farriers only and to increase the number of farriers in the future. It is for those reasons that I had some doubt in my mind, which I expressed to the noble Lord, as to whether this Amendment will help the Bill. I do not think it will.
LORD WIGG: My Lords, if I crave the indulgence of the House it is only because it is in fashion. I do not want to embarrass my noble friend the Minister, but I do not understand how any Department, short of doing what I have asked—which is to treat the horse as an economic animal—can ever establish the facts on which it is possible to make a sensible order. The Minister will not be able to find out how many horses there are, or how many farriers there are. I stand corrected. I thought for a

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moment that fashions had changed, times had changed and that the Secretary was the Secretary of State for Agriculture. Ultimately, it seems to me that the only Ministry in Whitehall which can get that knowledge is the Ministry of Agriculture. Until that happens, I think the Bill will become a load of nonsense.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

EDUCATION (MENTALLY HANDICAPPED CHILDREN) (SCOTLAND) BILL
7.45 p.m.
Brought from the Commons; read 1*, and to be printed.

LOCAL LOTTERIES BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.

MINISTERS OF THE CROWN BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.
LORD WIGG: My Lords, on a point of Order, I am completely bewildered. We had an Amendment moved on the Farriers Bill. The Amendment was accepted, but the Bill was not passed.
[The Silting was suspended at 7.48 p.m. and resumed at 8 p.m.]

RENT BILL
8.0 p.m.
Committee stage resumed.
Clause 3 [Recovery of possession of holiday accommodation let on out-of-season tenancies]:
On Question, Whether Clause 3 shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD HYLTON: It seems to me that the whole course of the debate on the various Amendments has drawn attention to the need for a measure of flexibility in the security of tenure for furnished tenants, as opposed to complete and rigid security of tenure right across the board. A number of different special cases have been quoted and argued from both sides
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of the House. I should like to ask the Government to look carefully at this question of excluding from security of tenure leases for a certain known period defined in advance. This may be the key to giving just that little flexibility which is needed. I find myself in a stronger position in suggesting this because in previous housing debates, I have tried to argue for security of tenure for furnished tenants who are families, or who are old people, and for those living in the existing housing stress areas. If those tenants can be included in the general provisions of the Bill, and something could be done to exclude the fixed-period tenancies, then I think we can cover both the special cases which have been raised, and give a little less rigidity and more flexibility throughout the whole of the furnished sector.
LORD SHEPHERD: In response to what the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, has said, certainly I would wish to see in this sphere, as in most legislation, the highest degree of flexibility, because one knows that when legislating, one creates anomalies on one side of the line or the other. I will say to the noble Lord that I have approached this Committee stage and the Bill with no firmly set view. I will read again with great care all that has been said on the previous clauses to the Bill, and if there are improvements, particularly in the area of flexibility, then I will see what can be done. Within the very nature of the beast itself, to a certain extent rent legislation needs to be specific, and where there has been flexibility in the past this has been left to the courts. I will look at what the noble Lord has said. I have much sympathy with what he has in mind, and will undertake, with my advisers, to look at the whole nature of our debate on the previous clauses and see whether there are changes which are possible.
Clause 3 agreed to.
Clause 4 agreed to.
LORD SHEPHERD: I think my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Annan, spoke to Amendment No. 10 on a previous occasion. In view of the fact that they are not present at the moment and in the light of what they said earlier, I do not think it will be their intention to move Amendment No. 10.
Clause 5 [Furnished lettings: increase in rateable value limits]:
BARONESS YOUNG BARONESS YOUNG moved Amendment No. 10A:
Page 5, line 19, leave out ("£1,500") and insert ("£750").
The noble Baroness said: On behalf of the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, I beg to move Amendment No. 10A. The noble Lord has already spoken to this point on a previous discussion on whether Clause 2 should stand part. By this Amendment, the noble Lord is concerned to exclude from the provisions of the Bill certain very highly-rated flats, particularly used by people in the Diplomatic Service who are in London for a very short time, or by certain businessmen who come to London for business reasons and require somewhere to live. Both groups of people by definition are here for temporary periods of time.
The noble Lord, Lord Bethell, is anxious that so far as the members of the Diplomatic Service are concerned, it should be possible for the flats that they occupy to become vacant when their terms of duty is over. It would be helpful if the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, could clarify for the Record the position of these people, and also the position of business people who occupy these expensive flats, again for short periods of time, while they are working in this country. Apart from the benefit that may accrue to the economy generally, I am advised that these people bring into this country enormous amounts of foreign currency. Therefore, they can be said to be making a direct contribution to our balance of payments.
However, I think the principal argument is that both groups of people are in effect here for short periods of time. These people require somewhere to live and not to be subject to security of tenure, because they often would be able to find somewhere else to live if they had to. In this case the expensive furnished flats are really suitable only for these people doing this kind of work. I beg to move.
LORD SHEPHERD: I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, with great interest when he spoke earlier and sought to reply to him. It seems to me that there is only one area of difficulty, that relating to those individuals who may
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be occupying premises in their own name, but are clearly doing so on behalf of a Government or a company. I was not able to help the noble Lord on that matter.
With regard to the rateable value, it is fair to point out that the 1965 Act established the same rateable value limits of £400 inside and £200 outside Greater London for both Part I—protected—and Part VI tenancies. Section 89 of the Housing Finance Act of 1972, which I think the noble Baroness, Lady Young, will remember, provided that these limits should be increased, following the 1973 rating revaluation, by Order. However, this provision was repealed as regards protected tenancies by the Counter-Inflation Act of 1973, which raised the limits applicable to those tenancies on and after April 1, 1973, to £1,500 inside and £750 outside Greater London, while those applicable to Part VI lettings on and after that date were raised by Order under the Housing Finance Act to £1,000 inside and £500 outside the Greater London area.
This clause restores the previous parity by raising the limits applicable to Part VI lettings. I can say to the noble Baroness that I think it would be wrong to make any exception or alteration to this since the amounts now specified in the Bill take into account the inflationary consequences of the last few years. I do not think it would be right to make a special exception merely to be able to provide some arrangement for a very small number of people. Since the noble Lord, Lord Bethell is not in his place. perhaps he may care to look later at what I have said and decide whether he should pursue it on another occasion.
BARONESS YOUNG: I should like to thank the noble Lord. Lord Shepherd. As he suggests, we will study what he has said and consider whether to put down an Amendment again. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 5 agreed to.
Clause 6 [Furnished lettings: amendments relating to control and registration of rents]:
8.10 p.m.
On question, Whether Clause 6 shall stand part of the Bill?
BARONESS YOUNG: I should like to ask a question on Clause 6(3)(2A) with regard to rates. I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, could clarify the position. I shall quite understand if he is not able to do so this evening, and if he would write to me I should be perfectly satisfied. I want to make sure what is the position with regard to the fixing of a fair rent in the case where the landlord pays the rates on a flat. In that case he will presumably be responsible for the rates. But what happens in the case where the rent includes the rates on the flat? Are these automatically added on top of the fair rent, or is some special calculation made?
LORD SHEPHERD: I understand that subsection (3) requires in the register of rents the inclusion of a reference to the fact that where the rates are borne by the landlord or the superior landlord, this is to be noted but it is not to affect the amount of the rent to be registered. I wonder whether those brief words extracted from my brief give the noble Baroness the information she requires? If there is anything further she would like to know, naturally I shall be happy to correspond with her.
BARONESS YOUNG: I will read what the noble Lord has said. This is rather a complicated matter, where rates are included in the rent. I think it is necessary to have clarification. I will study what the noble Lord has said and, if necessary, we can confer again.
Clause 6 agreed to.
Clause 7 agreed to.
LORD GIFFORD LORD GIFFORD moved Amendment No. 11:
After Clause 7 insert the following new clause:
Fixed term tenancies.
". Any tenancy of a dwelling-house for a term certain which does not exceed 2 years shall not come to an end merely by effluxion of time, but unless and until determined by lawful notice to quit or by surrender or by forfeiture shall continue as a tenancy by holding over; and any provision in any contract shall be of no effect in so far as it purports to exclude the operation of the foregoing provision."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment concerns short fixed term tenancies, and before turning to the terms of the
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Amendment itself may I draw the attention of the Committee to the provisions about short term fixed tenancies as they are now set out in the Bill. To do that one has to look at Schedule 2 to the Bill and the proposed new Section 5A, which contains the resident landlord exemption. One should say at once that as far as non-resident landlords are concerned it will not matter whether a fixed term or a periodic term is granted, the full Rent Act security will apply; but so far as resident landlords are concerned, it will be open to the landlord to make with his tenant an agreement for a term not exceeding two years.
The question then arises: what happens when that period, let us say six months, expires? The landlord cannot grant a second fixed term of six months, or any period, and indeed rightly so, because then he would fall foul of section 5A(2) which lays down that the resident landlord exemption only applies to periodic tenancies and to fixed term tenancies which are the first fixed term tenancies granted by that be he would want to make a further agreement with his tenant, to grant him a periodic tenancy to succeed the original first six months. If he does that, however, he will fall foul of subsection (3) of the new section 5A because subsection (3)(a) states that the section—that is to say the resident landlord exemption—
"does not apply to a tenancy which is granted to a person if immediately before it was granted he was the lessee of any premises under a contract to which part VI of this Act applies;"—
that is to say, a resident landlord contract—and (b) the premises comprised in the tenancy are either the same or include part of the premises included in the other contract.
As I understand this subsection, what it means is this: that when the first fixed term has come to an end the landlord is on the horns of a dilemma. He must either bring proceedings to evict the tenant or, if he allows the tenant to stay, he will find himself saddled with a fully protected tenancy. I am talking, of course, about resident landlords. Under the Bill as at present drafted there is no way whereby the landlord who initially grants a fixed term tenancy can convert that into a periodic tenancy without it being protected, because of the peculiar provisions

1241
of subsections (2) and (3). I want very much to know, first of all, whether that view that I take of the Act is right, and, secondly, if there are proposals to word it differently so as to bring into effect what I understand to be the Government's intention, that a resident landlord can escape from the rent tribunal if he grants an initial fixed term but thereafter he should be able to grant a periodic tenancy which would then be subject to the rent tribunal provisions.
Having tried to explain the present provisions regarding fixed terms, which I suggest are something of an absurdity in the way they are drafted, may I now come back to the Amendment I propose, which is also not a very easy Amendment to understand at first reading. There is a peculiar difference so far as fixed term tenancies are concerned between English law and Scots law. Under the law in Scotland, a fixed term tenancy does not automatically come to an end when the period expires, but on the part of the landlord who wants to bring it to an end there has to be a notice to quit. Since there has to be a notice to quit, the tenant then has a right to refer that notice to quit to the rent tribunal, and he is, therefore, entitled to the protection which the rent tribunal affords. That is not the case in England. In England, a landlord can grant a six-month tenancy and once the period expires the tenancy comes to an end. That means there is no need for a notice to quit, and thus there is no possibility of the rent tribunal having jurisdiction. Those who have been familiar with the ways of landlords in London know that at present the easiest way of avoiding even the rent tribunal security is for the landlord to grant successive fixed term tenancies. I am glad to know that under the Bill he is not going to be able to do this.
However, there seems to be a good deal of virtue in the Scottish provision. It was a virtue that was recognised by the Francis Committee, who said at page 161 of their Report, having explained the difference:
"We think that English law might with advantage be brought into line with Scots law in this respect, and we recommend that a Part VI fixed term tenancy should require a month's notice in writing to terminate it, such notice to expire at the end of the fixed term or at any time thereafter."
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If that were implemented then all tenants of resident landlords, whether they were periodic or fixed term, would then have the right to go to the rent tribunal; they could then look at all the circumstances, and decide whether or not it was right to give security.
Quite apart from criticising the erroneous way in which I believe the Bill to be drafted at present, I still wish to maintain this Amendment, which states that in order to bring English law into line with Scottish law, a fixed term tenancy of under two years shall not come to an end merely by effluxion of time, but shall continue unless it is determined by notice to quit or by surrender or forfeiture. I would urge the Government to consider whether it is not right that the Scottish provision, as the Francis Committee indicated, is not a better way of bringing within the rent tribunal ambit these short, fixed-term lettings.
8.22 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My noble friend referred to the horns of a dilemma for the landlord, and seeks to allow him to let on periodic tenancies to the same tenant after one fixed-term contract. The Government recognise that subsection (3) of new Section 5A should be subject to Amendment to relate it to a protected or statutory tenancy and not to a Part VI contract. I would hope that we shall be able to introduce this Amendment at the next stage of the Bill.
In regard to fixed-term tenancies, the Government do not believe that they should necessarily be capable of extension in the manner proposed. There are circumstances in which they are clearly suited to the interests of the tenant as well as the landlord. This may well be so in the case of the resident landlord who knows that he has spare accommodation in his home for a limited period—until perhaps a child grows up and needs extra space, or until a relative comes to live with a landlord. Such accommodation may well suit a tenant who has only temporary need for a home. These are cases where there is a genuine use for a fixed-term contract, and it would clearly be unreasonable to expect a landlord to let in such circumstances if he could not be sure of getting possession in time to fulfil his obligations. In my view,

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it would also be unreasonable to deny the resident landlord the right to let fixed term once to a tenant with whom he will be sharing the building in which he lives.
This is a very difficult area. That is my initial response to what my noble friend has said. I shall look carefully at what he has said when I see Hansard. I hope, on those conditions, and in view of the fact that I recognise the point about the horns of the dilemma for a landlord, and of our willingness to meet it by Amendment, that he will feel that we have gone some way to meet him on this Amendment he is proposing.
LORD GIFFORD: There are two points I would make. I am sorry that we do not have an Amendment before us. Obviously, I should like to look at a subsequent Amendment to see how it would affect the Bill as it stands, and how it would perhaps reduce the need for the Amendment I am proposing. I think that it will substantially reduce the need, since it will not raise this difficult position which would otherwise have arisen, on which it would have been quite impossible to advise either landlords or tenants.
I would ask my noble friend, even so, to see whether the Scottish provision might not be usefully applied here. If, in the cases that he mentions, a landlord quite plainly needs the premises to do repairs, or to house a neighbour, and if particularly he has made that very plain to the tenant at the beginning of the tenancy, then that is clearly a case where the rent tribunal would not be disposed to grant a very substantial amount of security, and I recognise the fairness of the situation. It seems that if they have got by in Scotland with a situation where all fixed-term tenancies are subject to rent tribunal review, then it can avoid injustice in England to bring about the same result.
The injustice I am seeking to overcome is that where there is a fixed-term letting which the rent tribunal cannot touch, it puts the tenant into the landlord's power, at any rate for that initial period of the first letting. In other words, if he complains about the rent, or the state of repair, he is likely not to get his fixed term converted, as it would be if my noble friend's Amendment comes through, into a periodic tenancy. That, in the
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initial period of a letting, puts the tenants into a difficult position. It seems that the rent tribunal can deal with the other points which might militate against this Amendment being accepted. Having said that, I am sure that my noble friend will review my Amendment in the light of his, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
LORD SHEPHERD: I undertake to look at the Scottish legislation to see whether, as in the past, it would be helpful in England.
BARONESS YOUNG: Is the noble Lord, Lord Gifford, suggesting a new clause in substitution for subsection (3) of Case 5A of Schedule 2, so that you would have another Amendment to take that out? Am I right in thinking that the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, wishes to meet the point of this case, and will be bringing forward a Government Amendment to amend Case 5A(3)?
LORD SHEPHERD: I am not sure whether it will be a new subsection. I have in mind an Amendment to the subsection. I would certainly say to both the noble Lord, Lord Gifford, and the noble Baroness, that I shall see whether I can get advance copies of our proposed Amendment so that we could perhaps consult before it is placed on the Marshalled List.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: May I say one word about this before the noble Lord withdraws his Amendment, because I have been listening to this discussion with interest. I do not know about the English law, but I know about the Scottish law. Although it has advantages it also has disadvantages. When the noble Lord looks at it, I hope that he will realise there are some severe disadvantages. For instance, if the landlord has a really genuine reason for wanting to get back some of his property because there is a son growing up, or he wants to house his daughter, it is exceedingly difficult to get the tenant out unless the tenant has gone there on the understanding that at some point or other he will probably have to move. If he cuts up rough and is disagreeable, then it is extremely hard to do anything.
I quite understand the views of the noble Lord, Lord Gifford, and that people do not want landlords to be able

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to turn anybody out at a moment's notice, which would be equally wrong, but there is a case for realising that it also has great disadvantages if it is too rigid. Although some of the rent tribunals are very good, some of them are not so good—you never quite know. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd—I am sure he will, because he knows Scotland very well—will realise that they do not always have the right thing, although it may be better than in England.
LORD SHEPHERD: Again I shall say that I will read carefully what the noble Baroness has said. I now understand why my noble friend Lord Gifford drew upon Scottish legislation in support of his Amendment. Quite clearly, the landlords in Scotland are not very keen about the existing legislation. I will look at what the noble Baroness has said and I will not even mind consulting her.
LORD GIFFORD: In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Young, one of the intentions of my Amendment was to resolve what seemed to me the absolutely insoluable problem presented by the Bill; that is to say, that at the end of a fixed term tenancy the landlord is saddled either with the necessity to evict the tenant or with the burden of a fully protected tenant on his hands. My Amendment would solve that problem by allowing the fixed term tenancy to continue ad infinitum until a notice to quit was served. If, as he has indicated he will, my noble friend brings in an Amendment to solve that problem in a different way, there are still substantial virtues in my Amendment even if the Bill is changed. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 8 agreed to.
Clauses 9 and 10 agreed to.
.32 p.m.
LORD MELCHETT LORD MELCHETT moved Amendment No. 12:
After Clause 10 insert the following new clause—
Provisions as to notices to quit.
".—(1) Without prejudice to the provisions of section 16 of the Rent Act 1957, no notice given by a landlord to quit any pre
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mises let as a dwelling-house shall be valid unless—

(a) it is given in writing; and

(b) it contains upon its face in letters no smaller than the text of the notice to quit the words set out in Schedule (Words to be contained in notices to quit referred to in section (Provisions as to notices to quit)) to this Act.

(2) Any tenant who is induced by a failure to comply with subsection (1) above to surrender a tenancy of a dwelling-house shall be entitled to recover damages from any persons by whom or on whose behalf the notice to quit is given as if in an action for wrongful eviction."
The noble Lord said: I should like to speak to this Amendment on behalf of myself and my noble friend Lord Gifford. The proposed new clause is of not quite the same type as the other Amendments in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Gifford. We feel that it would help to bring the provisions of the Bill, which we welcome, to the attention of all the people it seeks to protect. The provision lays down that the Government should make regulations to say what form a notice to quit should take and what information it should contain on the face of it. I shall not go into this point in very great detail, partly because I spoke about it at some length on Second Reading, and partly because I hope the Government will have some good news for us regarding the Amendment. I hope that noble Lords will not think I am brief because we have a poor case: we have a particularly strong case on this Amendment.
We were asked on Second Reading by the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, to provide evidence that when tenants were issued with notices to quit they either misunderstood the form of words contained in them or were ignorant of some of the rights which they have under the existing rent legislation. I think we can safely say that we have managed to provide the Government with a great deal of support for the Amendment from people involved, particularly in housing stress areas. Clearly, statistical evidence is very difficult to come by, because people who are unaware of their rights and who receive a notice to quit are, by definition, unlikely to go to a lawyer or a housing aid group and ask what their rights are. They are ignorant and, given a notice which says that they have to

1247
quit and deliver up possession of the premises, they do just that. There is a widespread feeling among people who work in this area that this is a major problem, and that very large numbers of tenants get notice to quit and just go, whether or not they have rights and whether they are furnished or unfurnished tenants.
The Amendment seeks to lay down a prescribed form to which notices to quit would have to conform, and which would inform tenants of their rights. I cannot see how anybody can have any objection to this. After all, if Parliament passes legislation to give protection to people and to give them rights, nobody can really take exception if people are informed about those rights. The present Bill and the Rent Acts have specifically given people rights when they receive a notice to quit from a landlord, and it seems that the most sensible time to tell people of their rights is when they receive the notice to quit, which is why we suggest that the notice to quit should inform people of their rights on the face of it.
Noble Lords may be aware that the present notice to quit comes with a very archaic form of words on the face of it, and that it tells tenants to quit and deliver up possession. There is no requirement to tell the tenant that he has the right to security, nor to tell him that he can go to the rent tribunal, nor to tell him that receiving a notice to quit does not mean hat he has to leave there and then. I hope that the Government will feel disposed to accept the Amendment. In all future cases where people are given notice to quit. we should at least have a guarantee that if they can read what is written on the notice they will know what their rights are.
LORD AVEBURY: I cannot refrain from intervening for one moment to say that in the Standing Committee on the Rent Act 1965, I moved an Amendment providing for statutory notices to quit. I have drawn the attention of the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, to the debate on that occasion, in response to his request for evidence that a provision of this kind is necessary. Although, as the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, has said, it is very difficult to find evidence of invalid notices to quit being issued and of tenants being
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pressured into giving up their homes by the use of such invalid notices, the practice has been going on for a very long time. I think that the Department of the Environment, if it had wanted to, could have made inquiries before the Bill was brought before the House. It was in a much better position to obtain information than any noble Lord, however well-informed on the subject he might be.
The only doubt I might have about the Amendment is whether it is sensible to put the words in the Schedule to the Bill. if one wished to alter it afterwards. amending legislation would be needed. What I suggest if, as the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, appears to think, the Minister will give a favourable response on this, and as he will not accept the wording which is down on the Marshalled List—Ministers never do—this should be drafted so as to allow the Secretary of State by Order to specify what should be contained in the notice to quit. That means that, if any further devices come to light which were not anticipated at the time when your Lordships or another place were considering the Bill, it can very easily be put right afterwards. Subject to that minor criticism, I am very much behind the noble Lords and their Amendment.
LORD HYLTON: In support of this Amendment, I should like to say that over the years I have advised a good many tenants about their rights after receiving a notice to quit. They could go either to the county court in cases of unfurnished tenancies, or to the rent tribunal in the case of furnished tenancies. But very few knew this, and I think the records of housing aid centres will show that substantial numbers of tenants just went away after receiving a notice to quit and without any further process of law. I am sorry that I have not brought evidence on that point with me, but I am sure that it is obtainable.
LORD SHEPHERD: I have read with very great interest what my noble friends Lord Melchett and Lord Gifford said on Second Reading, and I have listened with great care to what my noble friend has said in introducing the Amendment and to all those who have supported him. I have a good deal of sympathy for the Amendment, as I should have if I am to be logical and consistent, for I persuaded

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your Lordships' House to pass the Consumer Credit Bill in rapid time, and it was recognised that the basis of that Bill was the right to know. But there is a difference between providing legislation for, on the one hand, consumer credit and, on the other, dealing with rent and the question of the relationship between landlord and tenant, for, in many cases, one is dealing not with companies nor with any organised body that has the machinery for dealing with a more formalised approach when one is dealing with maybe small landlords and small tenants.
Nevertheless I can say that the Government, despite the difficulties, think it is worth studying the idea that a notice to quit a dwelling let on a protected tenancy or Part 6 contract must, in order to be valid, be in writing, with the possibility of using it as a source of information or advice to the tenant. I can therefore give the noble Lords an assurance that if they are willing to withdraw the Amendment the Government will examine the possibilities in the hope of working out some proposal which would give tenants further protection in this way without serious damage to the principle that legal procedures should not create for private people traps avoidable only at heavy cost in professional advice. The aim would be to introduce such a measure, if a workable proposal can be evolved, either in the Bill at a later stage or it may be perhaps more convenient and suitable for inclusion in the Housing Bill which we shall be receiving in two or three weeks' time.
I have expressed the Government's good intentions in this matter. If it is feasible to find a solution that will meet, what I am sure, are the wishes of the Committee, we shall do so, and I shall be happy to consult with the noble Lords. Lord Melchett and Lord Gifford, and any other noble Lords who have spoken, to see whether we can find a formula that meets the hopes and the wishes of those who have spoken.
LORD MELCHETT: I am grateful to my noble friend for that reply. I have a couple of points to make on what he said. First, providing this information of notice to quit will help landlords as well as tenants. One of the cases which we supplied to him was of a landlord who clearly did not understand what on earth
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they were meant to be doing, because even after receiving legal advice on no less than two occasions, it took them a further attempt to get a valid notice to quit. Obviously the need for information on both sides is great. The other point concerning the mention of consumer credit is that here we are trying to give advice to small landlords and individuals. That is why we were urging that it should go on the notice to quit, because that is something inevitably that both parties, or both individuals, are bound to see. However, I am grateful to my noble friend for his assurance to accept something along these lines if at all possible.
LORD GIFFORD: Before my noble friend withdraws the Amendment the question of evidence was raised on Second Reading and was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton. It is worth putting on Record that following the Second Reading I canvassed the views of a number of law centres, housing aid centres and other organisations. The response was quite remarkable. Within a few days I received letters from four law centres, four housing aid centres, the Citizen's Rights Office, a long letter from the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux and a powerful letter from Professor John Greve, all responding immediately and positively to the suggestion of such an Amendment as this. Many of them telephoned me with cases they had come across which made it clear how valuable this Amendment would be. My noble friend has the material which they provided. I wish to add only that I would certainly accept the suggestion that the matter should be dealt with by way of Orders and Regulations rather than by specific words in the Bill. We have indicated the kind of information which we feel ought to be included.
LORD MELCHETT: I would add to that impressive list, Shelter, who wrote to me, the Child Poverty Action Group and at least one other housing aids centre, again, all in favour of this Amendment. As the Government will bear that in mind I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
8.51 p.m.
LORD GIFFORD LORD GIFFORD moved Amendment No. 12A.
After Clause 10 insert the following new clause:
Provisions regarding the occupation of a dwelling-house by two or more persons.
".—(1) Where two or more persons together enjoy exclusive occupation of a dwelling-house under two or more contracts, those contracts shall be deemed to constitute a contract to which the relevant part of the Rent Act shall apply.
(2) Where under a contract to which the relevant part of the Rent Act applies, including a contract deemed to be such by virtue of the preceding subsection, two or more persons are entitled to occupy a dwelling-house, any one or more of them may refer the entire contract to the Rent Tribunal under the provisions of the relevant part of the Rent Act."
The noble Lord said: This Amendment appears on an extra sheet which was circulated at the beginning of the afternoon. It deals with a small but quite important potential loophole which was noticed by the Francis Committee where a number of usually young people are sharing a flat or a house. It has come to light —it was noticed by the Francis Committee—that in a number of cases where three or four people were sharing a flat the landlord, instead of granting a tenancy to them all jointly, would make separate agreements whereby each of them had the right to live in the flat but none of them had exclusive occupation. The effect of this is that the contract is neither a letting under the Rent Act, nor does it confer exclusive occupation which is needed to bring it into Part 6 of the Rent Act and, therefore, the jurisdiction of the rent tribunal. This was a dodge which the Francis Committee recommended ought to be changed, and I should add it would be covered by subsection (1) of the proposed new clause. Subsection (2) deals with a slightly different point: namely, that where a number of people share a flat which is subject to the rent tribunal jurisdiction, if one of them wanted to refer the matter to the rent tribunal, either to reduce rent or security of tenure, he must obtain the concurrence of the others. For instance, if three people occupy a flat and a notice to quit is given, and one is content to move out and does so, one of the other two has no right to go to the rent tribunal because the reference must be made by both. That is another small point which I have sought to cover by the second part of the proposed new clause. I should be grateful to know what view the Govern-
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ment take on each of these small separate points about sharing accommodation. I beg to move.
LORD SHEPHERD: As my noble friend said the Francis Committee on Rent Acts observed that this appeared to be a loophole permitting evasion of Part 6 and recommended that where two or more people together enjoyed exclusive occupation of the same accommodation under two or more contracts that those contracts shall be deemed to constitute a contract to which Part 6 applies! The Government agree with the desirability of bringing leases of dwellings occupied in common within the jurisdiction of the rent tribunals. What is doubtful, however, is the wisdom of achieving this by providing that separate contracts under which lessees occupy should be deemed to be one contract. Whatever effect this would have on the rights and obligations of the lessees or between themselves and between them and the lessor, the drawback to this approach emerges clearly from subsection (2), to which my noble friend referred. Subsection (2) will entitle any one of the occupiers in common to refer to the rent tribunal the deemed single contract which subsection (1) would create out of the separate contracts each co-occupier had with their lessee, thus enabling him to effect to refer a co-occupier's contract to a tribunal. whether the co-occupier wished it or not or indeed knew of the reference. It would not be acceptable for a private person to be enabled in any circumstances to interfere in such a way in a contract to which he is not a party. The Government propose that they should look into the possibility of amending Part VI in such a way as to enable tribunals to entertain references of contracts under which the lessee is entitled to occupy residential accommodation in common with others, without the subsequent decision affecting the contracts of the co-occupiers, who would of course, if a satisfactory provision could be evolved, be equally entitled to refer their own contracts to the tribunal. If a suitable measure can be worked out in time, an Amendment to introduce it will be proposed at a later stage of this Bill. This is a very complicated area, and if we are not able to do it in your Lordships' House we shall certainly undertake to sec that it is done in the other place.

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I hope that, with that assurance, my noble friends will feel that I have sought to meet their case, and will withdraw their Amendment.
LORD GIFFORD: I am certainly impressed by that assurance, which seems to me to underline the value of having raised some of these matters at this stage, because it may well be that it will take a week or two (by which time the Bill will be in the Commons) in order to work out the right approach. As I understand it, what my noble friend is saying is that he likes in principle the first part of my Amendment, although he is not very happy about the second part. I am certainly sufficiently pleased by his favourable acceptance of the first part in principle to have hopes for the future, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment at this stage.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clauses 11 and 12 agreed to.
Clause 13 [Short title, citation, application, commencement and extent]:
8.52 p.m.
LORD GIFFORD LORD GIFFORD moved Amendment No. 13:
Page 10, line 16, leave out from ("operation") to ("the") in line 17 and insert (" on the day after").
The noble Lord said: During the debate today we have spoken of the need to get this Bill into law quickly and because of that which is obviously right, I was a little concerned to see that the Bill is not going to come into operation until one month after it is passed. While I know that there are regulations to be promulgated, it seems to me that at least some of the provisions ought to come into force immediately. What will happen over the next two months is this. During the month of July a number of possession orders are going to be made in the county courts against tenants who would be entitled to protection under this Bill if it were then law. Those possession orders are going to fall to be executed during the month of August, since the normal delay period is 28 days. During the month of August the courts are on vacation, and I think it will be impossible to suspend the operation of any warrant during the one-month interval after Parliament has clearly stated its intention that the Bill
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should be law but before it actually comes into effect.
I would therefore wish the matter to be looked at to see whether at least the key passages giving protection, and the passages enabling the courts to suspend the execution of possession orders if they would not have been made had the Bill been law, could not be brought into operation immediately after Parliament has passed the Act. If that is not done, I would wish to know what steps can be taken, for instance by way of directives to rent tribunals and, if such can be given, to the officers of county courts and bailiffs, to try to delay the eviction of tenants who would, by the end of August, if that is the likely timetable, be entitled not to be evicted. It disturbs me that in the case of a Bill which is treated, and rightly treated, as a matter of urgency there is this month's delay built in. I beg to move.
LORD SHEPHERD: The effect of this Amendment would be to bring the Bill into operation the day after Royal Assent. A delay of one month between Royal Assent and the coming into force of a new Act is in fact a common occurrence. It is desirable to allow a reasonable time for the provisions as finally enacted to become generally known, and for prints of the Bill to become available to the public. As we have heard, the Amendment is prompted by the fear that the Bill will come into effect too late to protect those tenants whose landlords served notice to quit as soon as the Government announced their intention to give them security or tenure. The tenants in this position, however, should be safe from eviction provided they have used the means already available to them to delay the effects of a notice to quit.
If they had applied to a rent tribunal when they received a notice to quit, its operation would have been suspended for up to six months; and even if the rent tribunal had not been willing to repeat a period of suspension that had already been granted and had recently run out, the tenant can remain until an order for possession is made against him in the courts. Assuming a speedy passage through both Houses — and I am sure this will be the wish of this House and of another place — the Bill should be laid well before these temporary safeguards

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are exhausted. Further, the transitional provisions of paragraph 2 of Schedule 3 serve to protect the tenant where his tenancy comes to an end before the commencement date.
Perhaps I may say to my noble friend that I carefully examined whether it would be possible to bring this Bill into effect as suggested in the Amendment. Although it would have given some protection to some people who may not be quite included in what I have said, on balance, taking the need to have regard to an important function of the landlord and the wish not to put a landlord into a position of breaking the law quite unknowingly (but that, as the noble Lord, Lord Gifford, will know, is no defence), we have come to the conclusion that the decision is right that there should be this one month lapse between Royal Assent and the actual enactment of the Bill.
BARONESS YOUNG: I thank the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, for that assurance. Quite apart from this important point that the landlord could unknowingly be breaking the law, the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, undertook to look at this question of producing some kind of document which would explain this Bill to a number of people. I really think that if it became law immediately after Royal Assent an enormous number of people could find themselves affected by it without really understanding what was happening to them, and this really would be very unfair to those people. I think it is very important that justice should be seen to be done to everybody in these cases, and I would have thought that, with the assurance that the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has given about those who might be evicted, the Bill ought to be left as it is drafted.
LORD GIFFORD: I should like to say that I certainly agree with the noble Baroness in her suggestion that what the Bill does should be made known in a simple and easy to read leaflet, and I would hope that that is going to be done. I should certainly like to study the answer which my noble friend has given about the delay period, and both here and, it may be, in another place the reasons that he has given can be examined. I certainly remember — and I am quite sure that the noble Lord, Lord Avebury,
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remembers — that certain Acts (one thinks of the Immigration Act 1968) were brought into operation almost on the hour they passed, let alone there being a delay of a month. Certainly there is precedent for bringing an Act into operation on the day after the day on which it is passed; but I do not wish to press the matter, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 13 agreed to.
Schedule 1 [Consequential amendments of Rent Act]:
LORD MELCHETT LORD MELCHETT moved Amendment No. 14:
Page 11, line 11, after ("court,") insert "substantially").
The noble Lord said: I should like to speak, if I may, to Amendments Nos. 14 and 15 together. These two Amendments are to the new Case, Case 3A, which is set out in Schedule 1, Part 1, of the Bill. This case gives grounds for landlords who are providing furniture for their tenants to go to the courts to ask for a tenant to be evicted if that tenant has ill-treated the furniture.
This case parallels the existing Case 3 in the Schedules to the consolidated Rent Acts which give the landlord power to take the tenant to court when the tenant has damaged the fabric of the building. It seems to me that that Case has been transferred straight over so that exactly the same provisions apply to furniture now as have applied to the fabric of the building in the past. Our Amendments to this Case seek to do one thing; that is, to make some distinction between damage to the fabric of the property — which I think all noble Lords will agree is a fairly serious thing for the landlord and a fairly substantial thing for the tenant to undertake — and damage to furniture which can be of an extremely minor nature. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, gave us an instance on Second Reading of, I think it was, putting a glass down on a table, which led to his expulsion from some premises.
Damage to furniture is a much more difficult area, I think noble Lords will agree, than damage to property. Furniture can be put into a property in a very dilapidated condition and since the passing of the 1965 Act a large number

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of premises have been furnished in order to avoid the provisions of that Act, and it is the common experience of all people working in the housing field that a large number of landlords have put in very dilapidated furniture indeed. They have shoved in anything they couldget their hands on in order to get their premises outside the control of the previous Rent Act. There are already, therefore, a large number of furnished premises with poor to miserable furniture in them. Very rarely, if ever, is there — certainly in the cheaper rented accommodation — a schedule or list of furniture that was put in or what condition it was in when supplied by the landlord. Because furnished tenants have not been given security in the past, no furnished tenant has ever dreamt of taking his landlord to court to complain about the condition of the furniture. That is the quickest way known to anyone of getting oneself evicted from a property.
Furniture is not the same as the fabric of the property, and this Amendment seeks to distinguish between them and to make sure that the courts can evict people only if they have done two things: first, that the damage to the furniture was substantial (and the court would be under an obligation to see from the evidence that the substantial deterioration of the furniture had been caused by the tenant); secondly, and probably more important, the court — and this is Amendment No. 15 — will have to be of the opinion that such deterioration cannot in all the circumstances be compensated for by an award of damages. It is true to say that the court can at the present time award damages to the landlord rather than to evict the tenant. All that this Amendment seeks to do is to place the court under a statutory obligation to examine the possibility of awarding damages; in other words that it will not be possible for a court to say on hearing a case, "This is so bad, we will evict the tenant without more ado." They will have at least to consider in all the circumstances whether an award of damages will not be sufficient.
Given the distinction which I believe should be drawn between damage to the fabric of the property and damage to furniture and all the difficulties that can arise, and undoubtedly do arise over the sort of furniture which is provided, the
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condition it is in, whether or not the landlord has maintained it properly and who exactly is to blame for any deterioration anyhow, it is important to make sure that the court is under an absolute obligation to see whether it is possible to compensate for any damage in cash rather than by evicting the tenant from his home. I beg to move.
BARONESS YOUNG: Before the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, replies to these two Amendments, I wonder whether he could help me over this Schedule. I think I understand the reason why Case 3A has been added to Schedule 3 to the Rent Act. It is of course to make a comparable new case to the case for damage to the external fabric of an unfurnished tenancy. I wonder whether he would perhaps, in answering the two Amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, be able to indicate to us how he sees this Case working? My information is that already the courts find it very difficult to determine cases brought under Case 3 of Schedule 3 and in this new Case 3A would find it almost impossible. There would be required, before there was any letting, a complete inventory of what the house or flat contained, probably backed up with photographs so that everybody knew exactly what the condition of the property, the furniture and the fittings were when it was let if the landlord was going to bring a successful case under this new Case 3A. Because the fact would be that the landlord might say, "Well. the tenant has damaged the table" and the tenant would argue, "No, the table was damaged when I moved in". It will be impossible for a court to determine who is right in this respect.
The only people I can see who will benefit from Case 3A will be the valuers and, as one of them said to me, "It is good business for us because we shall be called in on every case." But I find it very difficult to believe that that was the intention of the Government when they included it. I hope they will explain how they would recommend someone to go about establishing the kind of necessary evidence that will be called for in Case 3A and perhaps they will explain whether they expect every landlord to undertake a complete inventory with photographs of the property, in order that everybody, landlord and tenant alike. can know exactly what they are getting.
LORD AVEBURY: I just want to remark that in the case of the expensive lettings we were talking about earlier, where the noble Baroness was saying that she agreed with her noble friend that the oil companies and foreign embassies who took properties, where the furniture might be worth thousands of pounds, in the name of one of their employees and certain difficulties would have arisen, at least in those instances, I think the noble Baroness would agree with me, it is customary for the landlord to have a complete inventory taken for the purposes of insurance and also for the purposes of recovering any damages which are normally provided for in the tenancy agreement. At least in those instances there would not be any difficulty in the courts ascertaining whether a piece of furniture had been wilfully damaged by the tenants, or the silver had been "knocked off", or whatever. But where you come down to the more normal type of furnished tenancy where the equipment is probably not worth very much anyway, I think it will be a matter of common sense for the courts to see whether the furniture originally provided had been damaged or whether it was likely to have been damaged, according to the condition at the time. If the furniture was originally in rather a poor condition and that was not specified in any schedule attached to the tenancy agreement, then it could be simply a matter of argument between the landlord and the tenant; and, based on the unsupported word of either of them, the courts would have difficulty in determining what damage had been done and how much. But in those cases presumably the furniture would be of so little value in the first place that the granting of possession under Case 3A would he unlikely to happen. It is only where the furniture is of some considerable value in relation to the amount of rent paid under the tenancy that it becomes of importance.
9.10 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: In reply to the noble Baroness, I would say that my only experience of living in furnished premises was when I used to come home from Singapore on my six months' leave and would take rented accommodation in Edinburgh. Whether or not it was because they were Scots I do not know, but we always had a good inventory and — as the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has
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said — a good description of what was in the house, and if one disagreed with what the landlord had in mind then one drew his attention to it and reached an agreement. However, I accept that in some cases there may be a problem for those landlords who, as the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, said, are not exactly in the area which the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, had in mind. At this stage I should not like to say specifically, as the noble Baroness asked me to do, how that part of the Bill will be administered; but in practice this is something that has been going on for many years. I will look into this to see whether I can say something in a more formal sense on Third Reading, because clearly this is a matter of interest.
Turning to the Amendments of my noble friend Lord Melchett (Nos. 14 and 15), one should really stress that what we have in the Bill here is only an additional ground on which the court may make an order. It must be appreciated that the new Case does not provide that the court must — and I stress the word "must" — make an order for possession in the event of there having been any ill-treatment of the landlord's furniture. Under Section 10 of the Rent Act 1968, a court (that is a county court) is not to make an order for possession of a dwelling-house let on a protected tenancy or subject to a statutory tenancy, unless the court is first of all satisfied that it is reasonable to make an Order; and, secondly, that the court is satisfied (apart from the question of alternative accommodation for the tenant) that the circumstances are as specified in any of the Cases in Part I of Schedule 3 to the Rent Act. It is not sufficient for the landlord to show that one of the Cases referred to above applies: he must also satisfy the court that it is reasonable to make the Order. Therefore, if some damage has occurred, shall we say to a particular table, that does not provide grounds.
The court would take a view as to how the tenant has occupied the tenancy and used the furniture and, as most courts do, it would take a broad view as to how the tenant has behaved. I should have thought that where a tenant has created damage, but not wilfully or extensively, there is no risk that the court would require him to leave. I would agree that preference should be given by the court to the payment of damages, as opposed to

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the removal of the person from the home, If the court were of the opinion in any case that damages would be a sufficient remedy for the landlord, it would hardly be satisfied that it was reasonable to make an order for possession. Under Section 10 of the Rent Act 1968 the court has the discretion. In my view it would be undesirable to attempt to fetter or interfere with that discretion in any particular case. I have looked at this matter and from all the evidence one sees regarding the attitude of the courts, this is a matter one could safely leave with the Administration of Justice Act.
LORD MELCHETT: I thank my noble friend for that reply. The noble Baroness, Lady Young, said that this Amendment would lead to a lot of work for people in making up inventories. That would be a good thing on the whole. As the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, said, it is common practice in any expensive letting, where there is a substantial amount of money involved in the furniture, for inventories to be made. Landlords have never complained about having to do it; they always insisted on doing it. Often landlords have not made inventories for cheap furnished lettings because if they did they would expose the fact that the furniture was not sufficient to make a furnished letting at all. They have got away with it because nobody knew what the furniture was like. That is one of the reasons why inventories have been avoided in at least one class of furnished letting. If this Amendment has the effect of making inventories much more important for everybody, it is a very good thing indeed.
The noble Baroness, Lady Young, also made the point that this is a very difficult area. I entirely agree; and it makes it all the more important, because the evidence is difficult and because there will often be conflict between landlord and tenant that the court should be obliged to look at the question of giving damages before considering evicting the tenant. The award of damages and losing one's home are two different things. It is important that the court should be obliged to look at damages first. This is a point that I would urge on my noble friend Lord Shepherd. I know that the courts already have the power to award damages and decide what is reasonable. As a non-lawyer, I have less confidence than some
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other noble Lords about how difficult it is to interpret "reasonable" in different situations. It is possible for some courts to decide that if a tenant damages furniture that is unreasonable and is sufficient grounds for eviction. Some other courts may decide that if a tenant damages furniture seriously or wilfully that is sufficiently unreasonable for them to be evicted. Other courts may take the view that if a tenant damages furniture twice, or several times, and refuses to pay damages, that is sufficient grounds for eviction.
My Amendment does not seek to fetter the courts; it could not have that effect. It seeks to make sure that the court must look at damages before considering eviction. I urge my noble friend to look at this again and take advice. This Amendment merely places the court under a minor obligation to consider damages before eviction. There has been no real objection raised to doing that, and maybe my noble friend could consider including this in a later stage of the Bill.
LORD SHEPHERD: I will certainly respond to my noble friend, particularly the part in which he suggests that there should be an obligation on the court to consider whether payment of damages should be ordered before giving an order for eviction. It may be difficult to draft that Amendment because at the end of the day one needs to be fair to the landlord. Some tenants are not all that they should be. There needs to be a limit to the number of times a landlord needs to go to the court in order to get damages paid regarding furniture that a tenant has misused on a number of occasions. But it would be wrong for me not to undertake to look at what the noble Lord has said. I will look most carefully and communicate with him.
LORD MELCHETT: I am grateful for that assurance, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
9.20 p.m.
BARONESS YOUNG BARONESS YOUNG moved Amendment No. 16:
Page 12, line 42, after ("dwellinghouse") insert (", any services which are provided by the landlord under the terms of the tenancy,").
The noble Baroness said: I am moving Amendment No. 16 for clarification. On

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an earlier Amendment, I raised the question of the determination of a fair rent for furnished accommodation. This is something which will prove to be much more complicated than the determination of a fair rent for unfurnished accommodation, in the field of which there is now a great deal of experience. One of the matters which must be taken into account, besides the age, character, locality and state of repair of the dwelling house, are the services that are provided in furnished accommodation. They vary enormously, and I accept there are a great many furnished flats and houses where no services at all are provided. But, on the other hand, there arc some good blocks of flats which may provide a porter and all kinds of fittings and extras that go with the flat; services of central heating, lighting; possibly laundry services, and the cleaning of flats. All these will vary with the circumstances of the tenancy. Clearly, the cost of providing these services is the kind of factor which can escalate rapidly — for example, the cost of central heating when oil prices rise. This is something of which everybody who has any kind of oil-fired central heating is only too well aware: and no doubt next winter we shall discover by how much the cost of other forms of central heating will rise.
The point of raising this question is that if these services are included in the furnished accommodation, I believe their cost ought to be reflected in the calculation of the fair rent because in these circumstances the calculation is very different from that of a furnished flat with which go none of these services. The calculation of the fair rent in that case must include whatever figure was allowed when the accommodation was unfurnished plus something for the furniture, and that is all that ought to be allowed in that particular circumstance. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, will be able to explain how this calculation will be made, so again to reassure those who want to let what is, after all, the better type of furnished accommodation, that they can expect a fair rent for their property. I beg to move.
9.22 p.m.
LORD AVEBURY: Obviously the factors which the noble Baroness has men-
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tioned must be taken into account to determine what the fair rent should be, either of a furnished or of an unfurnished property, because it does not necessarily follow that facilities of the kind she described are limited to furnished tenancies. For example, one can think of porterage, the lighting of common areas and the cleaning of common areas. Laundry might well be provided by the landlord even in the case of an unfurnished property. In the past we have always been told that the provision of such additional services, or indeed other circumstances that could not properly be described as "services", are covered by the phrase, "all the circumstances".
During the proceedings on the 1965 Rent Bill, I moved an Amendment in the other place which would have required rent officers to take into account the rateable value of the dwelling. I was not seeking to impose any arithmetical formula such as obtained in the case of old control, where the rent was some multiple of the rateable value, because that would have been far too rigid. Also, of course the rateable values in different parts of the country had got out of line with each other, and so that course would not have been appropriate. I simply wished to insert rateable value as one of the factors which should be taken into account in assessment of the fair rent. What I was told by the then Minister, Mr. Dick Crossman, was that obviously the rateable value of a property was included in the phrase, "all the circumstances".
Therefore, I think that if the noble Baroness seeks to put in a phrase of the kind she is proposing dealing with one aspect of the rent officer's examination in arriving at what should be a fair rent, it will be found difficult to know where to draw the line. One can go on including rateable value, and so on, until the phrasing becomes very cumbersome. Indeed, by putting in these additional phrases one can mislead the rent officers, and the rent assessment committees, because they do not know what importance Parliament attached to each one of the factors. So probably it is best if we keep the phrase or formula as simple as possible, and do not try to add in many of the factors which rent officers and rent assessment committees will already take into account automatically.
LORD HYLTON: I hope that the Amendment moved by my noble friend Lady Young will prove to be unnecessary. I always understood that where you have a fair rented dwelling you have a separate service charge to cover many of the items the noble Baroness mentioned — indeed, in addition, such things as the cost of common gardens. I hope that we do not have to agree with this Amendment.
LORD SHEPHERD: I am grateful for the intervention of the two noble Lords because they have saved me from making one of my lengthy speeches. The fact is that the Amendment is unnecessary because under Section 46(1) of the Rent Act 1968 on determining a fair rent the rent officer or rent assessment committee are to have regard, among other matters mentioned, to all the circumstances, and the words clearly include any services provided by the landlord. The matter is put beyond doubt by Section 47(1) of the Rent Act which relates to
"The amount to be registered as the rent…"
This section expressly provides that the amount so registered,
"shall include any sums payable by the tenant to the landlord for the use of furniture or for services…".
Indeed, a number of appeals to the High Court from rent assessment committees have related to the amount allowed in respect of services, and the fact that services provided by the landlord for the tenant is one of the matters to which regard must be had has never been questioned.
I hope that the noble Baroness will take not only my advice, but that also of the two noble Lords who now sit on her side of the Committee, although the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, is of another Party, that her Amendment is unnecessary. I hope that she will feel now that she can withdraw the Amendment.
BARONESS YOUNG: I realise that 1 am clearly at a disadvantage at this Committee proceedings, not having taken part in the Committee proceedings on the 1965 Rent Act, but I am grateful for the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, and the noble Lord, Lord Hylton. I put this down as a probing Amendment so that we could have on the Record the position for tenants of furnished accommodation where services are included, and
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I am glad to have it. I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule 1 agreed to.
Schedule 2 [Tenancies granted by resident landlords]:
9.28 p.m.
LORD AVEBURY LORD AVEBURY moved Amendment No. 17:
Page 15, line 25 at beginning insert ("Subject to subsection (1A) below").
The noble Lord said: Would it be for the convenience of the Committee if we took with this Amendment Amendment No. 22 to which Amendment No. 17 is a paving Amendment, and also Amendments Nos. 26 and 31 which deal with the same point in relation to Scotland, and perhaps also, with the permission of the noble Lord, Lord Gifford, his Amendment No. 20 which deals with substantially the same point?
We come to that Part of the Bill which is concerned with the situation of residential landlords, and I am going to argue that their total exclusion from the provisions of the Bill is a defect and would deprive substantial numbers of tenants of the protection which is given to others. This point was raised en passant on Second Reading by the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, when he spoke of the possibility that a property company might nominate somebody to move into a building, thereby becoming a residential landlord, and take the property companies' tenancies out of the ambit of the Bill. But the property companies form only a small fraction of the possible total of residential landlords with whom we are concerned. Most of them would not be able to take advantage of the procedure which the noble Lord outlined on that occasion. We arc concerned, therefore, purely with existing residential landlords and people who might become individual residential landlords between now and the time this Bill becomes law.
If one looks at the figures, one sees that the proportion of tenants who live in the same building as their landlords is twice as high in the furnished sector as in the unfurnished sector. The figure which I have been given is 27 per cent. in Greater London as a whole, and according to the Francis Report it is as high as 39 per cent. in the stress areas. If

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one looks purely at cases that come before the rent tribunal, and taking the sample of early 1969 examined by the Francis Committee, the figure rises to nearly 50 per cent. So we are not talking about a minor aspect of the Bill in discussing the position of the residential landlord.
The Government say, rightly, that they do not want to discourage the owner-occupier from letting off part of his home when he is in a position to do so, and the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, gave an example during the Second Reading debate of the owner-occupier whose family have grown up and left the home to set up on their own, and where the mother and father therefore have accommodation which is surplus to their own needs. In those cases, which I agree ought to be taken out of the restrictions imposed by this Bill, the accommodation released by the children is unlikely to be suitable for more than one other household.
The point of the Amendment to which this is a paving Amendment is that if there is only one other unit of accommodation in the house, then the landlord ought to be exempt from the protection which is given to tenants otherwise under the Bill.
The noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, went on to say that the distinction between protected and unprotected tenants, based on whether the landlord and the tenant live under the same roof, had the advantage of being readily understood by both. But equally this Amendment could be understood very easily. If there is more than one tenant in a building, then all the tenants will have the protection conferred by the Bill, as I am suggesting, hut if there is only one tenant sharing the house with the landlord. and if he has been the only tenant since the beginning of his tenancy, then he will have no protection. It is not only easy to make a statutory restriction. It is also simple to argue that this is a logical distinction. The person who becomes a landlord of furnished premises because the house has become too large for his own needs, is in a very different position from the person who acquires a property as an investment with two or more existing tenants, and is there only secondarily because there happens to be one flat in
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the building with vacant possession that he can himself occupy.
What would be the effect of the formula that I am suggesting? The Child Poverty Action Group has given us information about 23 cases where tenants were under notice to quit from a resident landlord, and in only 4 of those cases were the tenants the only household in the building apart from the landlord. In the Pimlico Neighbourhood Aid Centre, there were 2 tenants out of 22 who were the only ones in the building and a sample of the Deptford Housing Aid Centre gave 1 out of 22. I am not suggesting that these figures, based on a very small sample, represent Greater London as a whole, let alone England and Wales, but they give some indication of the number involved.
One also has to consider the sort of reasons that were given by the landlords in arguing the case for security of tenure, and the extent to which friction between tenants and landlords, which has been given as the main argument for excluding resident landlords from the provisions of the Bill, is of importance, particularly if one agrees with the Minority Report of the Francis Committee that living in your own house with another family can produce tensions and personal conflicts, and that a quick, informal and cheap remedy is needed in those cases. In fact, when one examines the reasons for landlords seeking reductions on security of tenure, in the applications that I have mentioned as ones that were dealt with by the three bodies I have mentioned — the Pimlico Neighbourhood Aid Centre, the Deptford Housing Aid Centre and the C.P.A.G.—friction between tenants and landlords appears to be quite a minor proportion of the total number of cases: of the C.P.A.G., it was 4 cases out of 23; in the Pimlico cases, 3 cases out of 22 and. I think, a similar figure in the case of Deptford.
I hope I am not going on too long. but I should like to give one or two examples of the kind of friction used by landlords in the case of the C.P.A.G.. 23 instances. In case No. 1 the landlord made unsubstantiated allegations of a moral nature against a tenant who was a deserted wife with three children. In case No. 2 relations were described as strained, but there were no specific allegations. In

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Case No. 4 the landlord alleged that the tenant slammed doors. The tribunal chairman later remarked that the landlord had previously applied for possession against another tenant for slamming doors. Case No. 6, the landlord complained that the tenant had allowed his wife's mother to stay without his consent. If one looks at these instances one might agree that they were rather trivial, the kind of things that might arise between neighbours, but which would give one no power over the neighbours if they were not tenants. The kind of behaviour which is alleged is either of a trivial character or in other cases does not seem to have been well substantiated before the tribunal. One finds that often the alleged friction is only used as an additional excuse where the real reason for the landlord wanting to get possession is that he wishes to sell for owner occupation or some other reason. It is possible to exaggerate the potential for friction between a landlord and tenant living in the same building, particularly where it is not of the kind I outlined first where the building has simply become too large for the landlord's own use and he has let off part of it. I am talking of cases where there are two or more other tenancies in the building, and I regret that we do tend to be misled by the sensational Press who love to blow up stories about landlords and tenants coming into dispute and the kind of behaviour which makes nice headlines, but which is by no means typical of the relations between landlord and tenant. One must not get the matter out of perspective. There are many thousands of landlords and tenants who live harmoniously in the same building where two or more tenancies are occupied and the landlord is also in the same building. It would be wrong for this House, or anybody else, to give the impression that landlords and tenants are in a perpetual state of warfare. Of course, one is not saying that any tenant should have absolute security and protection. Where the main reason is that the landlord has acquired a building for the purposes of investment and it is only secondly his own dwelling, as is evidenced by the fact that there are two or more dwellings let to tenants in the building with the landlord occupying only one third or less, there are strong arguments for saying that those tenants are entitled to the same protection as is given to every other
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furnished tenant in the country and we should confine the exclusion to the single tenant, who is the only other household in the building. If the Government are not prepared to go along with that, I accept, as a second best, the Amendment which is down in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Melchett and Lord Gifford. I think it is quite wrong for us to exclude the residential landlords entirely when I have illustrated to your Lordships what a substantial proportion of the total furnished accommodation they represent, particularly in the stress areas. I beg to move.
9.40 p.m.
LORD MELCHETT: I should like to support the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, in his Amendment. It covers similar ground to that in my own name and of my noble friend Lord Gifford. Frankly, I think the Amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, is a better one than ours; it is tighter and simpler, and would certainly be my first choice if the Government felt disposed (and I should be surprised if they did) to accept one or other of the Amendments.
I think the noble Lord touched on the most important point in looking at resident landlords. It should be possible to distinguish between those who buy a property as an investment and who let a substantial part of the property, if not to make money, at least to cover their costs. The Child Poverty Action Group and others, in surveys of rented accommodation where there is a resident landlord, have found many resident landlords allowing two or more households to live in their own house. In such cases, the landlords are covering the cost of rates, rent and other fixed outgoings of that sort, their mortgage repayments and so on. Many of these resident landlords are at least covering those costs, if not making a profit, and are living rent-free at the expense of their tenants. I am not objecting to that, but I think that if landlords are prepared to make money out of this sort of housing market, they should also be prepared to accept the responsibilities which go with this type of business.
We are not dealing here with people who are providing some ethereal thing, or something which people can do without one day and get the next day, or buy one week if they have enough money.

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Fundamental in people's lives is the place where they live, and the provision of housing for them. It is vital that people should, wherever possible, feel secure in where they live. The landlords anyway, resident or not, have many grounds for getting rid of tenants who are unco-operative, fail to pay the rent, or cause a nuisance. There arc already many grounds to enable landlords to get rid of bad tenants. We are trying to stop landlords moving people out because, for example, they apply for a reduction in the rent, if they are being overcharged, if they try to make the landlord look after the premises as he has a statutory obligation to do. It is important to try to get as many tenants as possible under the Control of Rent Act. This kind of Amendment will go a long way to doing that. This is a very important and very large sector, as the noble Lord. Lord Avebury, said.
It may be that up to 30 per cent. of tenants will be excluded if all resident landlords are excluded from the provisions of the Bill. I agree with the noble Lord that the instance I gave on Second Reading of property companies utilising a loophope like this is a minor point. If is very unlikely that they would do such a thing. There are difficulties that they will come across if they try it on. On the other hand, I have received at least one letter since the Second Reading debate from tenants in a building where the landlord is in the process of moving in at this moment; in other words, he is anticipating the effects of this Bill. This is a house with three tenants, and the landlord is in the process of moving in so that he can get the tenants out when the property market goes up, because he is planning to sell the house for conversion to luxury flats. So although property companies may or may not take advantage of this, some landlords, not all, undoubtedly will, and it is an extremely important area.
LORD SHEPHERD: I am sure my noble friend Lord Melchett and the noble Lord. Lord Avebury, will appreciate that my initial reaction is to resist all the Amendments that have been moved, and to do so on the basis that we do not wish to see too great a constraint being placed in a sphere which is important in the provision of accommodation. I
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see not only difficulties in principle in accepting the Amendment, but many practical difficulties in meeting the cases to which the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has referred specifically. My noble friend Lord Melchett referred to them also. If these noble Lords will agree, I should like to read and study carefully what has been said tonight, not in any way indicating that I can move at all on the general principle, but to see whether there is any particular area where we could perhaps overcome some of the fears and expressions of dismay that we have heard this evening. I could not give any undertaking, but I should not like to say "No" to this series of Amendments, particularly in view of the persuasive way in which they have been moved. I should like to read and study what has been said and communicate with the noble Lords.
BARONESS YOUNG: If the noble Lord is going to write to the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, and the noble Lord, Lord Melchett, I wonder whether he would let me know what he has in mind. It seems to me that these Amendments are striking very much against what I always understood in this Bill to be the change in policy from drawing a distinction between "furnished" and "unfurnished" to drawing a distinction between tenancies where the landlord is resident and those where he is not, and it is the latter which will become subject to full security of tenure.
Although I quite accept (because I have seen the memorandum from the Child Poverty Action Group and the one from Shelter) that there are no doubt very bad cases where the landlord is resident—indeed there could well be some of the worst cases of all in those circumstances—there are, on the other hand, a great many people who may well buy a house and then, because it is very expensive—I am thinking again of a young married couple—decided to let part. They might, if it is a very large house decide to let off two bits of the house. This has been described as living at the expense of tenants. It may well be true that they cover quite a large part of their expenses by letting part of the property, but on the other hand they are providing accommodation for people and they are helping themselves in the process. The owner of

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the house will be incurring considerable expense, not only for the mortgage but for repairs and so on. I really cannot concede that this is in principle a bad thing to do. On the contrary, it seems to me a useful thing to do from everybody's point of view. So I think one wants to be careful, before committing oneself to amending this, that one is not once again harming a great number of people by doing so.
LORD SHEPHERD: I hope the noble Baroness has not read into words I have said a meaning that I had not intended. What I said was that I could not accept the Amendments; I did not necessarily accept the principle behind the Amendments and I certainly could not depart from the principle and intention in the legislation. What I was seeking to do was to respond to the various cases raised, to sec whether there was any area in which consideration could be given to dealing with the kind of problems that have been raised this evening. I suggest that that is part of Committee stage. I do not think any of my noble friends or the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, thought that I went any further than being willing to look at what has been said. But as I have said—and I am glad the noble Baroness has drawn attention to it—I am in no way departing from the intention within the Bill.
LORD HYLTON: I should like to ask the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, whether he would, in thinking about this problem, try to disinguish between what one might call the professional landlord and the amateur landlord without worrying too much about who is living at the expense of whom. Furthermore, in particular would he consider whether Section 7 of the 1968 Race Relations Act provides a working model for an amending clause?
LORD SHEPHERD: I will undertake to look at what the noble Lord has said to see whether there is something to be taken from it.
LORD MELCHETT: May I comment on one thing that the noble Baroness said. I hope that no noble Lord will get the impression from anything that I have said, or the Amendments, that we are suggesting that letting part of one's house to somebody else to live in is in any way a bad thing. The implication behind the
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Amendments is that if you are letting part of your house, a large part for a fairly large sum of money to two or more households, then those households should have some protection. They should not be able to be evicted from a house at the whim of a landlord. That is a bad thing. Letting the premises to people is certainly not a bad thing.
LORD AVEBURY: I hope that the noble Baroness was not suggesting that this was the first Amendment, of quite a large number that we have been looking at this afternoon and this evening, that the Minister should not examine further. I think that the noble Lord has given that undertaking to everybody else who has spoken. One must take it as not having an enormous amount of value, if one is being perfectly frank with oneself, because one knows that the point is that the Government do not want a Report stage; they want to prevent us from putting any of these Amendments to a Division. Therefore, they try to be nice to anybody moving an Amendment without giving them any undertakings.
LORD SHEPHERD: If the noble Lord says that I have undertaken to look at Amendments for the purpose of avoiding Divisions, he is being less than fair to me and to my colleagues. If I felt that one had to fight to the last ditch on an Amendment I would, but this is a Committee stage, and if there are points put that are worthy of consideration, then what is the point of a Committee unless one is willing to listen to what has been said and examine it to see whether something can be done? If the noble Lord has been aware of what I have said, on every occasion where I have had a doubt as to whether I could do anything I have always drawn the Committee's attention to it.
On an Amendment moved by the noble Baroness, she had present, I will not say the entire Conservative Party of your Lordship's House, but a large part of it. She asked me whether I would consider the Amendment and I undertook to consider it, but I made it clear that the chances of my being able to do anything were extremely remote. I hope that on reflection the noble Lord will feel that he has in fact been less than fair.
LORD DAVIES OF LEEK: I have listened—
LORD AVEBURY: I shall not finish my speech now, because I will have to withdraw the Amendment at the end. I will listen to what the noble Lord has to say first.
LORD DAVIES OF LEEK: I have been listening, too. While we want protection for the tenant, I should like to re-emphasise a point made by the noble Baroness. Take the case of young, fully qualified students who have now got married and are trying to build up a home and take a job in London, such as teachers and young medical people, and they have a little house and they put somebody in it. I hope that we are not going to look on them as flinty-hearted landlords. I hope that sometimes they will be protected from the kind of people who might batten on them, and who are much more sophisticated than they are. I know that people who have had a pied à terre somewhere feel that they ought to put somebody in it. They do not want to make money out of it, but they want an understanding that the house is kept decent. They are doing a good turn for students and others, and there should be some kind of protection for them. I think that it is absolutely necessary to give to tenants a period during which they know they are safe. At the same time, some people should also have protection when they have rooms to let and they arc living in the house themselves, and with prices as they are today are looking on those people not to exploit them for money but to help to pay for the house.
LORD AVEBURY: The noble Lord is absolutely right. Nobody can disagree With him, and that is why, under my Amendment, I have said that we should not extend the full protection given under this Bill to other landlords where there is only one other tenancy in the building.
LORD DAVIES OF LEEK: I believe that my noble friend will look at it.
LORD AVEBURY: I was not quite happy with the Minister's statement that he could not accept the principle. If what he meant by that was that he disagrees with the Lindell Evans quote that I mentioned—that is to say, where you are living in your own house with another family, it can produce tensions and per
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sonal conflict, and a quick, informal remedy is needed in these cases—and that he was going to look at it with a view to making sure that in those cases, and in those cases only, there was a quick, simple and cheap remedy, but that he was not going to extend it to the whole population of resident landlords, the large majority of whom could not be said to face that situation, I understand. When there are several other tenancies in the same block, the landlord may not even see the tenants from one week to another and it is therefore impossible for the tensions and the personal conflicts to which Lindell Evans was referring to arise.
The Minister knows as well as I do that there are many large blocks with up to a dozen tenancies in them where the landlord occupies one flat and where there is no logical reason whatsoever why he should be granted the same kind of exemption as the single owner-occupier with one tenant. That is all that we are saying, and I hope that the noble Lord, in having agreed to examine the case, contrary to the wishes of the noble Baroness, Lady Young, apparently, will look at the memorandum which has been produced by the Child Poverty Action Group—and I will be glad to let him have my copy if he has not already got one himself—and at the evidence produced by Shelter, and will come to the conclusion quite logically, and not on the basis that there is some principle which has to be upheld or prevented from being upheld.
If he approaches this from first principles and asks who should have protection and to whom it is not fair to give protection, I think he will come down on the side of my Amendment, or, at the very least, on that of the Amendment proposed by the noble Lords opposite. ff he starts by saying that there is a question of principle involved and he cannot get over that hurdle, and looks at the case on its own merit, I shall be very disappointed. But I am sure that that was not really what the noble Lord had in mind, and in view of the assurance which has been given I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
9.58 p.m.
LORD GIFFORD LORD GIFFORD moved Amendment No. 19:
Page 15, line 34, after ("his") insert ("sole or principal").
The noble Lord said: This Amendment raises a slightly different point, as to whether the residence should be the sole or principal residence of the landlord. In a sense, this is taking up an exchange which I and my noble friend Lord Garnsworthy had on Second Reading on this matter. At column 256 of Hansard of June 10, my noble friend said that it would have to be taken up as the main residence of the person occupying the flat and that he might be called upon to prove this. I rejoined that I did not think that that was expressed in the Bill, and indeed it is not. I think that there is a danger that some landlords will keep a flat or a room open in a five-storey block and will go along there at weekends or to spend a night, keeping a residence open to collect the rents and to preserve their rights under the new Section 5A.
It seems to me that, if it is the intention, as the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy has said, to make it the main residence, the Bill should say so. It does not do so at the moment. This seems to me to be a logical and necessary Amendment in order to get round that kind of residence, which may be a genuine residence in the sense that the landlord has belongings there and lives there, but would certainly not be the main or principal residence.
LORD SHEPHERD: The effect of these Amendments would be to limit the proposed application of the new Section 5A on resident landlord exemption. These sections are intended to apply where the tenancy is of a part of a "building"—a term to be modified by a Government Amendment on Report, it is hoped—part of which the landlord occupies as his residence. The concept of occupation as a residence already has significance under the Rent Act. It is occupation as a residence that creates an entitlement to a statutory tenancy. Any question whether a person genuinely occupies a dwelling as his residence can be tested in the courts. Indeed, such issues often have to be tested and there is a considerable body of case law on the subject.
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It is the Government's view that the rights of a resident landlord should be grounded on the fact of residence in the same way, and to the same degree, as the rights of tenants. This is why Section 5A is so worded. These Amendments would reduce his rights by limiting him to one residence, which is his sole or principal residence. It may be suggested that the exemption as it stands would allow landlords to hold or let parts of several properties excluding all tenants in them from protection for short periods of occupation. In the light of the extensive case law already mentioned, this is something which we can rely on the courts to prevent.
The requirement for occupation of a residence for the purpose of claiming a statutory tenancy is that there must be personal occupation as a home. I refer my noble friend to Lord Justice Clark-Hutchison in Menzies v. Mackie in 1938. Similarly, there is nothing in the Rent Restrictions Act to prevent a man from having more than one home. Here I refer my noble friend to Langford Property Company v. Trueman in 1949. Provided that there is evidence on which it can properly be said that the second one was the home and not merely a place used when convenient—and I refer to Setty v. Cohen in 1958—these are the principles which we can expect to be applied when the residence in question is that of the landlord. It can also be mentioned that the only known attempt of a three-home man to claim protection of the Acts did not succeed.
It may be suggested that the exemption as it stands will enable companies to put nominees into parts of properties in order to deny protection to tenants of other parts. This would seldom be feasible and would be unlikely. It would be feasible only when a company had a vacant or largely vacant property before sitting tenants already enjoyed protection and were unaffected by the intrusion of a resident landlord. Even then it would be inadvisable, from the company's point of view, because to enjoy the resident landlord's exemption the hypothetical nominee, besides having to be genuinely resident, would have to be endowed with the legal estate of the property sufficient to entitle him to grant sub-tenancies, with the consequence that

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the company would risk losing control of the property to its nominee.
The effect of these Amendments would thus be to deny the occupier of two homes residential rights and rights as lessor in the second. Quite apart from the fact that it may be in the second home that he has spare accommodation and he could let, the principal home is not necessarily the one that matters most to a two-home person. The principal home may be leased and the second home owned, or when the principal home depends on a place of work the second one may be the one he intends to become his only home on retirement, or his wife may spend most of her time in the second home. No reason is seen why the person who genuinely occupies more than one dwelling as his residence should on that account be denied one of those rights deriving from the occupation, when they relate to his position as tenant, any more than he should be when they relate to his position as a landlord. As I said at the beginning of this statement, it is our intention to move an Amendment on this matter and here again I will see whether I can get an Amendment to the noble Lord before it is placed on the Marshalled List.
LORD MELCHETT: Before my noble friend finishes, may I ask him one question? While accepting what he says about three-home owners and the possibility of companies putting nominees into places, is it not true to say that the effect of what he has told us is that the Bill means that the Government are supporting the rights of two-home owners as against the rights of no home owners?
10.5 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: No. There will be two-home owners, I suppose. Some may have one as their principal home, in the sense that it is in the district where they work, and may then purchase another place in another part of the country in anticipation of retirement. I think it would be wrong, if such a person wished to let those premises to people in need, to take such steps as would prevent him making those premises available. But on the general principle of a second home, the noble Lord will know that in the last Budget certain of the facility for obtaining a second home was removed. At this stage we should not get on to the prin
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ciples and ethics of two-home ownership, but rather should look at the Bill as it is and at the facts that present themselves to us. I hope that in view of what I have said to my noble friend, particularly the fact that we intend to move an Amendment to the earlier part of this Schedule, he will be satisfied.
LORD GIFFORD: My noble friend has delivered himself of a formidable opinion and with a salvo of cases in it which I should certainly like to study further. What I have not quite understood, though, is his reference to a further Amendment, which if I understand him rightly is a different Amendment from that which was foreshadowed earlier in the debate this afternoon and which he said was to avoid the landlord's dilemma on a fixed-term tenancy. Is this a different Amendment and, if so, can we have some indication of what it is designed to do? Or is it a secret to be unlocked at a later stage?
LORD AVEBURY: When Ministers undertake to produce an Amendment at a later stage of the Bill, they give at least some vague idea of what is to be contained in it, whereas, as I understood the noble Lord, he simply announced it in vacuo and not in relation to what is covered by this Amendment. If it is only a question of the anticipation of retirement, I thought we dealt with that point some time earlier. The noble Lord said in response to another Amendment that where a person bought a second home, looking forward to his retirement in a couple of years' time, that was a matter which might be looked at and dealt with through an Amendment to an earlier clause in the Bill.
This really worried me, listening to the noble Lord's explanation, because I thought that the question of whether a person was occupying premises as a residence was determined by other legislation, apart from the Rent Acts. Surely there is the electoral registration provisions, which are of equal importance in this matter. The test is a very simple one. The noble Lord is probably aware that a lot of people register themselves in both homes and tend to vote in the one in which they think their vote is likely to be most effective. For example, if you have a Conservative who lives in South Kensington and who has a holiday home in Newquay, then he is most likely

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to exercise his vote in Newquay, in a vain attempt to defeat my honourable friend the Member for North Cornwall, in spite of the fact that he may occupy his Newquay home for only two weeks of the year. I am afraid the noble Lord may find that, in the case of many people who own two homes, one of them is not really a residence in the normal sense of the word. It may simply be a holiday home that he visits for two weeks in the year; and although one would not want to do anything to stop him letting part of that home for the rest of the year, I do not think that this is really a sufficient ground for saying that he should be totally exempted.
The noble Lord also seemed quite certain that, because of the cases applying to tenants, a person with three homes could not claim protection by successive occupation of each of them. If one was really certain of that it would be better than leaving the question in thin air, and if the noble Lord's Amendment was designed to prevent somebody from trotting round from South Kensington to Newquay and perhaps to Liverpool as well, it would be some improvement on the present drafting. But one would like to know what the noble Lord has in mind.
LORD SHEPHERD: I hope the Committee will understand the nature of taking Bills through your Lordships' House, and the legislation at the present time. This is a Bill which I have discussed with my advisers and in the light of my discussions the note I have is that they themselves advise me that it would be their desire to see an Amendment placed in response to the Amendment which has just been moved by my noble friends. I hope the noble Lord will understand what I am saying and not press me too far on this matter this evening.
Loan GIFFORD: In breathless anticipation I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD GIFFORD LORD GIFFORD moved Amendment No. 23:
Page 16, line 9, leave out ("under a contract to which Part VI of this Act applies").
The noble Lord said: I think this is another area of the Bill which will be
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affected by the other Amendment which my noble friend Lord Shepherd has promised for the Report stage. May I set out what my Amendment is designed to deal with in the hope that his Amendment when it comes will deal with the same grievance. As the Bill now stands, the landlord of a building where there are protected unfurnished tenancies, can move into a vacant flat in the building. Although he is prevented by the nature of the Act from depriving the tenants of security by the act of moving in, he can, as the Bill now stands, induce them to sign a fresh agreement. That then becomes a new contract and then the new Section 5A will bite because Section 5A looks to the commencement of the tenancy to determine whether the resident landlord exemption applies. One knows that tenants, particularly because of their natural ignorance of the intricacies of this legislation, may well be induced to sign a fresh agreement which perhaps appears to give them better rights, but in reality gives them worse. They will then be deprived as unfurnished tenants of a complete protection which they have enjoyed hitherto. I hope that my noble friend's future Amendment will take account of that possibility. I beg to move.
LORD SHEPHERD: It is the intention to introduce shortly a Government Amendment to provide that resident landlord exemption shall not apply if immediately before the tenancy is granted the tenant had occupied the premises or part of the premises under a protected tenancy. This Amendment will have the effect of ensuring that a tenant who is protected either under the 1968 Rent Act or by virtue of Clause 1 of the Bill, cannot be deprived of his protection by any action of his landlord. Unless a provision to this effect is included in the Bill, it will be possible for a landlord to move into a building, to grant a resident tenant a new contractual tenancy perhaps on the expiration of a fixed-term contract, or by persuading the tenant to accept a change in the terms of the tenancy or an increase or decrease in the amount of accommodation provided, and thus to create a tenancy to which the resident landlord exemption applies. This loophole must clearly be closed, and an undertaking is given to introduce an Amendment to this effect as soon as possible.
LORD GIFFORD: I appear to have scored a hit on that one, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
10.15 p.m.
LORD GIFFORD LORD GIFFORD moved Amendment No. 24:
Page 16, line 13, leave out ("comprised in the contract").
The noble Lord said: I do not know whether my run of luck is going to last, but Amendments 24 and 25 are designed to deal with a slightly different point but within the same area. Again, as drafted, this part of the Schedule prevents the resident landlord from getting round the policy of the Act by moving his tenant to slightly different premises but which include part of the same premises he occupied before. It seems to me that a much more likely means that may be devised to deprive tenants of security is not to move them to some differently constituted premises but to move them quite simply to another floor in the same building. If that is done, once again a new tenancy would come into being, and if it were the tenancy of a landlord who had just moved in and become a resident landlord, again the same thing would happen and the tenants who were previously protected would lose their protection.
I would ask that the new Amendment which is foreshadowed should also cover this point and that it should not only refer to premises which are in part the same as the previous premises but any new tenancy in the same building should also remain protected even though there is a landlord on the same premises. I beg to move.
LORD SHEPHERD: I believe this is a paving Amendment to Amendment No. 25. is it not?
LORD GIFFORD: That is so.
LORD SHEPHERD: It seems that this Amendment, if redrafted, may well represent an improvement to the Bill and tighten up the protection given to tenants. It requires a little more consideration to ensure that the proposal represents the best solution to the problem, after which a suitable Amendment could be introduced either here or in another place. With those words, I hope that the noble
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Lord will feel it right to withdraw his Amendment.
LORD HYLTON: May I ask the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, to bear in mind the legitimate interests of housing associations, if he produces an Amendment following the ones proposed?
LORD SHEPHERD: I take note of what the noble Lord has said.
LORD GIFFORD: I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Shepherd for what he has said, and 1 beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD SHEPHERD LORD SHEPHERD moved Amendment No. 35:
Page 17, line 7, after second C' words insert ("or by reason of those circum stances").
The noble Lord said: This Amendment is necessary to ensure that the provisions of Section 101 of the Rent Act 1968 are accurately adapted to suit the new legislation. It is further consequential on the introduction of the resident landlord concession. Section 101 of the Rent Act 1968 deals with a case where a tenant is precluded from protection, for example, because he shares essential living accommodation, such as a kitchen, with his landlord. The section gives the tenant the benefit of provisions of Part VI of the Act—that is the furnished code.
To preserve the effect of Section 101 in the light of the new Section 5A, no protected tenancy in certain cases where a landlord's interests belong to a resident landlord, it was necessary to add to Section 101 a reference to Section 5A: and this is done by paragraph 3 of Schedule 2 to the Bill. It has been found. however, that the Amendment made in paragraph 3 of Schedule 2 would have the effect of excluding from the benefit of Part VI the case (which would be uncommon) where the tenant shares, say, a kitchen with his landlord but the landlord does not occupy as his residence another dwelling-house in the building. An example would be a case where the landlord has a pied à terre in the building that he could not say was his residence. This Amendment shows that in such a case the tenant will have the benefit of Part VI, as he does at present. I commend to the Committee a close study of

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what I have just said to see whether they need further assistance on it, and I should be happy to respond.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SHEPHERD LORD SHEPHERD: I beg to move Amendment No. 36.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 43, at beginning insert ("or by reason of those circumstances").—(Lord Shepherd.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 2, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 3 [Transitional provisions]:
On Question, Whether Schedule 3 shall stand part of the Bill?
LORD AVEBURY: The point I wish to raise may have been covered by the mysterious Amendment which the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has promised us, but if we look at Schedule 3(1) we find that if a person is a furnished tenant before the Bill commences and, at the same time, the landlord is living in another dwelling which also forms part of the building, there is nothing in the Act which will have the effect of converting the contract into a protected tenancy. The circumstances to which I want to draw the attention of the Lord Privy Seal are those in which a landlord has read the Bill and has seen that by moving into the block in between the publication of the Bill and its coming into effect he can prevent all the tenants in that block from becoming protected tenants.
This is not a hypothetical instance. I have received a letter, as I believe one or two other noble Lords have, from a person who is a tenant in W.5. He says he has been a tenant of a furnished fiat in a house for 13 years and another tenant has been there for 10 years. But he and the other tenants have recently been given notice to quit. The landlord who has owned the house for only two years and lives somewhere else, is now proposing to move into the house and into rooms which, fortunately for him, happen to have become vacant. He will thus be able to circumvent the Bill by becoming a resident owner before the Bill becomes law. I promised this gentleman I would attempt to table an Amendment to deal with his point, which is a valid one. I have not been able to formulate an Amendment in time for this Committee
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stage, and I was intending to return to this by the Report stage. From what the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has said already, it may be unnecessary for me to bend my mind to the process of drafting, and he will kindly do it for me. I hope that this point, as well as those of an analogous kind which we have discussed on Schedule 2, will be taken into account.
Schedule 3 agreed to.
Schedule 4 [Enactments repealed]:
10.25 p.m.
LORD GIFFORD LORD GIFFORD moved Amendment No. 38:
Page 20, line 14, at end insert—
("Section 5.
Section 33(3).")
The noble Lord said: This Amendment moves the debate into a different realm. It follows a number of references which were made on Second Reading of the Bill as to the position so far as security of tenure is concerned for tenants of council accommodation, housing trust accommodation and housing association lettings. I said in my speech on Second Reading that, by and large, such tenants enjoyed security of tenure. In practice that is the case. I am not suggesting by this Amendment that there is a very widespread misuse of power by housing departments of local authorities. However, in law it is not the case that tenants of those social landlords have any security of tenure at all. The protection given by Section 5 of the Rent Act 1968 does not apply to the tenants of local authority housing trust and housing association accommodation at all. I am wishing at this stage to take the opportunity which this Bill provides merely to ask why these tenants do not enjoy security.
There is a further object because although, as I have stated, most housing officers act with fairness and moderation towards their tenants, there have been some extremely bad cases. Some were mentioned in a report known as the Grieve Report which was produced by Shelter, which gave as the cause of homelessness in quite a number of cases the fact that people had been evicted from council accommodation having been in arrears of rent, but having offered in many cases the whole or a substantial part of the arrears before the case came

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to court. Nevertheless, the local authority persisted in its application and the court had no alternative—and has no alternative in such cases—but to make an order for possession. I see no reason at all why local authorities and housing trusts and housing associations should not be subject to the judicial control that the Rent Acts give. For instance, if there are arrears of rent the court has the power to look into the matter and make a suspended order for possession if there is a real possibility of the rent's being paid. I should not have thought that any responsible council or any responsible housing trust or housing association would wish to evict a tenant unless one of the grounds specified in the Rent Acts applied to his case, or unless, as provided in the Rent Acts, some suitable alternative accomodation was offered to him. There have been some bad cases. No doubt this is something which would have to be looked into quite thoroughly before any final decision could be taken, but I am anxious to know whether in fact there is any basic objection to this protection, as it seems to me unnecessary protection, of local authorities being brought to an end.
My speech related only to Section 5. and I hope that I may move the deletion of Section 33(3) separately. I beg to move Amendment No. 38.
10.28 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: I have listened with great care to what my noble friend has said. The effect of the Amendment would be to repeal Section 5 of the Rent Act 1968 and also Section 5 of the Rent (Scotland) Act 1971, which provides that a tenancy granted by a local authority or New Town Development Corporation or housing association shall not be a protected or statutory tenancy, and would thus extend security of tenure to tenants of local authorities, New Towns and housing associations. My noble friend may be aware that the Minister for Housing and Construction made the position clear on this issue during the Committee stage of the Housing Bill in another place. He said that it had been his view for some time that there should be a generality of security applied, while recognising that in practice this would mean little as regards local authorities and indeed housing associations, of whom
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only a minority acted irresponsibly; and the same is true of the New Town Corporations. He therefore agreed in principle with the view of those who had raised the matter.
In the early months of a new Government we have been fully occupied with the urgent problems with which this Bill seeks to deal, and our proposals for the repeal of the Housing Finance Act and the Housing Bill to which I have referred. We have not had time to consider how we should proceed so far as the remaining areas of unprotected tenancies are concerned, but I can assure my noble friend that the matter is very much in our minds. It would not be right for the Government to take action on this matter without full consultation with the local authority associations and the other bodies concerned, but I hope that I have indicated the attitude generally of the Government in this matter. Time is an important factor and at the moment we have not got it quite on our side. However, I hope that we can look forward to a period of office when we can continue our consultations with the authorities and perhaps meet the point which the noble Lord has in mind.
BARONESS YOUNG: Before the noble Lord concludes his remarks, I hope that lie will not undertake any alteration without the fullest consultation with local government. I think that he has given us this assurance, which I believe to be important. I agree that it appears to be completely inconsistent that local authority tenants should not have security of tenure when, as the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has indicated, there are some local authorities which act irresponsibly. The same argument has been applied in the case of private landlords. Then it is said that if one is irresponsible everybody should have security. There appears to be a complete inconsistency of argument. However, I am quite sure that it would be wrong, on an Amendment to this Bill, to alter something because this is affecting so many local authorities up and down the country. I believe that there should be the widest possible consultation before any such step is taken.
LORD GIFFORD: I agree with both my noble friend and the noble Baroness that this is a matter upon which there should be full consultation. It is heartening to find that neither of the spokesmen

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from the two Front Benches can put forward a reason why this exemption should continue. Some soundings which I know have been taken among certain local authorities in London indicate that the local authorities themselves would be quite happy to submit to the overview of the courts in their demands for possession. However, having raised the matter and having been interested exceedingly by the comments which have been made by both Front Benches, I beg leave to withdraw that part of the Amendment which relates to Section 5.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
10.34 p.m.
LORD GIFFORD LORD GIFFORD moved Amendment No. 39:
Page 20, line 31, at end insert—
("Section 5.
Section 31(3).")
The noble Lord said: Perhaps I can conveniently speak to the last Amendment, which is to delete Section 31(3) of the Rent (Scotland) Act, and also to that part of Amendment No. 38 which deals with the deletion of Section 33(3) of the Rent Act 1968. Although the last Amendment is one of the least significant and important ones which I have had to move, it has this importance. Under the existing law, a landlord of furnished accommodation who charges his tenant more than the rent which has been registered by the rent tribunal must repay it on action taken by the tenant, and is liable to repay it up to the full length of the contract or the full length of the limitation time, which is normally six years. However, with the rents registered by the rent officer, if the landlord then charges more than the rent registered by Section 33(3) of the Rent Act the tenant can recover only the amount overpaid up to a period of two years. I fail to see the reason for the difference between the consequences of over-charging in the two different types of letting. This Bill will see a lot more tenancies brought into the rent officer's orbit and therefore the likelihood of more overcharging on the rent officer side, and it seems to me that possibly the two areas of law could be brought into line. I beg to move.
LORD SHEPHERD: My noble friend has set out the reasons for moving his Amendment. I am sure he will agree that the provision which we are dealing
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with has been firmly embedded in the rent legislation for some considerable time. This provision has been firmly embedded in rent legislation for some considerable time. The Rent and Mortgage Interest Restrictions Act 1923 prescribed a maximum period of six months for the recovery of any excess rent paid and this was extended to two years by the Increase of Rent and Mortgage (Restrictions) Act 1938. The provision was retained when the body of rent legislation was consolidated in the 1968 Act. There was, however, no comparable provision in the Furnished Houses (Rent Control) Act 1946, and therefore Part IV does not contain a similar provision. Section 76(2) allows a tenant who has paid more than the registered rent to recover the excess, without placing any restriction on the time during which he may do this.
When the limitation on the period within which a tenant may recover overpaid rent was first introduced, the maximum rent recoverable under legislation was the standard rent. The difficulties of establishing what this was in any individual case were so enormous that a landlord might in all innocence have contravened the provisions in the belief that a standard rent for the dwelling-house did not exist. It was therefore decided to limit the period of recovery. It is still difficult in many cases to establish what is the maximum recoverable rent. In these circumstances, and because I certainly have seen no evidence to show that tenants have experienced any real hardship on account of the limitation, it is thought unwise to change this long standing provision. I hope with those words the noble Lord will be willing to withdraw his Amendment.
LORD GIFFORD: I should certainly like to consider what my noble friend has said. I am bound to say that I am not here armed with evidence of substantial hardship and it may be that I shall not want to deal with the matter further. I am grateful for the noble Lord's reply and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule 4 agreed to.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, before we complete this Committee stage, I

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should like to express my very sincere appreciation to the noble Baroness, Lady Young, for having been willing to sit for very long hours, in company with others, in considering the Committee stage of the Bill. I am also particularly grateful to my two noble friends who have given a great deal of thought and care to this Bill, and I am pleased that I have been able to meet some of the points that they have made. I hope that at the Report stage we shall be able to show the benefit of their work. I should like to express considerable appreciation to all those who have helped in getting this Committee stage through today.
BARONESS YOUNG: I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, for his help to me in providing me with notes on clauses. As we have said, this is a very difficult Bill but it has certainly helped in one's understanding of it. I should also like to thank my noble friends who have supported me on the various Amendments. I am dad that at any rate the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has agreed to look at one or two of them, and of course we shall see what turns up at the Report stage.
House resumed: Bill reported with the Amendments.

UNIVERSITY OF BRISTOL BILL
Reported with Amendments.
TORQUAY MARKET BILL [H.L.]
The Chairman of Committees informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn. The Order made on April 9 last discharged, and Bill committed to the Committee on Unopposed Bills.
  SERVICE PAY AND ALLOWANCES
  SERVICE PAY AND ALLOWANCES
  EUROPEAN PARLIAMENTARY BUDGETARY POWERS
  EUROPEAN PARLIAMENTARY BUDGETARY POWERS
  SHIPBUILDING AND PUBLIC OWNERSHIP
  SHIPBUILDING AND PUBLIC OWNERSHIP
  BANGOR BAY DEVELOPMENT
  BANGOR BAY DEVELOPMENT
  LONDON CAR PARK CHARGES
  LONDON CAR PARK CHARGES