Sitting of 3 April 1974

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  ORKNEY COUNTY COUNCIL BILL
  Ordered,
  That any Committee to which the Orkney County Council Bill may be referred by the Committee of Selection have power to adjourn from place to place.—[The Chairman of Ways and Means.]

  RENFREW COUNTY COUNCIL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  Read the Third time and passed.
  GREENOCK CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
  Considered; to be read the Third time tomorrow.
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  ENVIRONMENT

    House Building Materials
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will hold an urgent inquiry into the delays being encountered in house building because materials in short supply are going to the construction of office blocks; and what action he will take to prevent this.
    The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Anthony Crosland): The production of building materials is getting back to normal, and once the difficulties arising from the recent short-time working are overcome I do not expect the supply of building materials to hold back house building, although there may be occasional difficulties. I am nevertheless considering what the Government's policy should be on official and commercial property.
    Mr. Allaun: May I wish my right hon. Friend every success in his vital task of obtaining more houses for the country? Is he aware that, despite what he says, many local authorities are encountering delays of eight to 12 months in the completion of urgently needed houses? Is he also aware that some building firms are making the excuse of shortage of building materials for local authority housing while diverting materials to their own commercial contracts?
    Mr. Crosland: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his good wishes, which I greatly appreciate. While we are recovering from the period of three-day-week working there will undoubtedly be difficulties, but I hope that these will clear themselves up before too long. In a way, I wish that the supply of materials was the biggest constraint on the house building programme, but I am afraid that there are far more serious constraints which are basically legacies which we have inherited from the previous Government.
    Mr. Emery: The whole House will wish the Minister well and will support him in obtaining more houses and house building. Can he indicate to the House

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    what the new Government's target for house completions will be to the end of 1974 and, if possible, 1975?
    Mr. Crosland: I am grateful to the hon. Member for his sincere good wishes. I fear that I cannot satisfy him on the second part of his question.
    Mr. Bates: Is my right hon. Friend aware that these delays are occurring not only in new building but also in house improvements, where delays have occurred because of shortage of materials and difficulties in obtaining certain types of skilled labour? Is he aware that the 75 per cent. grant for house improvement is to be reduced to 50 per cent. in June and that many people and local authorities are likely to lose the 75 per cent. grant because of these delays? Will he therefore consider paying grant at the 75 per cent. rate on improvements which have been started but not completed by June?
    Mr. Crosland: I am only too well aware of the terminal date for the 75 per cent. grant. It is a matter which I am considering, but I must say that I am considering it without any definite commitment.

    Livestock Markets
    Mr. Biffenasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement detailing the Government's policy towards established livestock markets and their rôle in the rural economy, in the light of possible developments of the large-scale livestock marketing complex such as that under consideration on land adjacent to the intersection of the M5 and M50 motorways.
    The Minister for Planning and Local Government (Mr. John Silkin): The possible effect on existing communities and development in the surrounding area caused by a large-scale project would be material to the consideration of any application for planning permission.
    Mr. Biffen: Can the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the project referred to in the Question would be of such a magnitude that it would constitute a major departure from the county of Worcester plan and, therefore, would involve his Department? Is he aware of the widespread disquiet that the project has caused among marketing authorities, and
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    will he underline his own awareness of the tremendous importance to the rural economy in the West Midlands of market towns in Shropshire and adjacent counties?
    Mr. Silkin: Such an application, were it to come—I do not believe that it has yet come—would be novel in this country. My own view is that the new county of Hereford and Worcester might spend some time considering whether it was a major departure from the plan. Were it so to decide, the question whether it would be called in by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of States would of course become a very live issue.

    Concessionary Fares (Schoolchildren)
    Mr. Biggs-Davisonasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what representations he has received calling for the extension of concessionary children's fares on public transport to all children attending school; and whether he will make a statement.
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Neil Carmichael): A few letters have been received on this since I took office. Fares for children are, however, a matter for the transport operators.
    Mr. Biggs-Davison: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that does not get us very far and that, apart from the few representations he has received, my right hon. Friend who was his predecessor certainly received representations from me? Will he give it his consideration if I take up the case again?
    Mr. Carmichael: We shall always be pleased to hear from the hon. Member, but he must realise that concessionary fares for children or anyone else are primarily a matter for the commercial judgment of the operators of the services. It is important to remember also that lower fares for some people mean higher fares for others.
    Mr. Walter Johnson: Is my hon. Friend aware that in my constituency, for example, parents were persuaded to send their children to the Derby schools, some two miles away, as the fares were to be free? Now, under the new county council authority, this concession has been withdrawn. What does my hon. Friend intend to do about that?
    Mr. Carmichael: This is a matter for the local authorities. If they wish, on the advice of the Department of Education and Science, they may decide to give grants to allow schoolchildren to travel at reduced fares. A working party set up by the DES has reported and made radical suggestions for changes, but no ministerial decisions have yet been taken.
    Mr. Walter Johnson: In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.
    Mr. Dempseyasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will give a general direction to transport undertakings to extend the concession of half fares to young persons until they reach the compulsory school leaving age of 16; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Carmichael: No, Sir. My right hon. Friend has no power to do so.
    Mr. Dempsey: Is my hon. Friend aware, however, that since the compulsory school leaving age was raised to 16 bus fares have increased enormously? Such costs weigh heavily on countless thousands of working-class parents whose children do not qualify, on geographical lines, for concessionary bus fares. Will my hon. Friend do something about it? Some municipal undertakings have already given this concession. Why should he not instruct the Scottish Bus Group to do likewise?
    Mr. Carmichael: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has no powers to do that, and I emphasise that the matter of concessionary fares is for the commercial judgment of the operators. Before the war the concessionary fares were originally introduced to attract children and others to use public transport. But the economics of public transport have changed drastically since then.
    Mr. Harry Ewing: Will my hon. Friend note the very important point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Airdrie (Mr. Dempsey)? Some local authorities which own their own passenger transport undertakings grant children half fares until they are 16 whereas the Scottish Bus Group does not. Is my hon. Friend aware that even today the Scottish Bus Group has an application before the traffic commis-
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    sioners substantially to increase fares in Scotland? Will the Government take power to deal with this? After all, is not that what Governments are elected for?
    Mr. Carmichael: I understand fully the point made by my hon. Friend, but the question of subsidising concessionary fares represents only part of transport costs. The Government already make very substantial contributions to the cost of public transport. Ultimately it is a question of priorities.
    Mr. Moate: I recognise that the question of concessionary fares is a matter for the bus companies and transport undertakings, but will the hon. Gentleman say whether the Government have a view about whether it is desirable for concessionary fares to be available to schoolchildren?
    Mr. Carmichael: The previous Labour Government, of which I was a member, introduced legislation to give local authorities power to extend concessionary fares to the elderly. Local authorities can provide free travel for any children travelling over three miles or, if under eight years of age, over two miles. As I said in reply to an earlier Question, there has been an investigation by the Department of Education and Science which is now being considered, but no official view has been taken.

    Holiday Flats
    Mr. Blakerasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if, in his proposals for the protection of furnished tenants, he will bear in mind the importance of avoiding damage to the tourist industry and, in particular, the owners of holiday flats.
    The Minister for Housing and Construction (Mr. Reginald Freeson): Yes, Sir.
    Mr. Blaker: Is the Minister aware that holiday flats play an important part in our tourist industry? Is he also aware that most owners of such flats wish to let them in the winter, thus alleviating the housing problem, provided they can be satisfied that they can regain possession at the agreed date in order that tourists who have contracted—often many months ahead—may be able to spend their holidays there?
    Mr. Freeson: Yes, I am aware of this point. I am bearing it in mind in preparing the proposed legislation.
    Mr. Jay: Is my hon. Friend also aware that evictions from furnished tenancies are now a main cause of the appalling housing situation in London? May we have legislation as early as possible on this vital matter?
    Mr. Freeson: The legislation will be introduced very soon. I accept the point that my right hon. Friend has made. Insecurity in this field of tenure is one of the biggest single causes of homelessness, particularly in inner London, and indeed other parts of the country.
    Mrs. Thatcher: What led the Minister to reject the recommendations of the Francis Committee to the effect that if he were to give security of tenure on furnished accommodation similar to that on unfurnished accommodation there would be a great danger that the supply of accommodation would dry up, leading to substantial hardship?
    Mr. Freeson: No doubt we shall be able to discuss the detailed aspects of interpretations of the economic situation in the housing market when we introduce the Bill. The Labour Party made representations to the Francis Committee in favour of security of tenure for furnished tenants. Nothing that has happened since that time, particularly in inner London and other inner city areas, has led us to change our minds. On balance, notwithstanding the kind of risk to which the right hon. Lady has referred, it would be right to introduce this kind of security.

    Lime Kiln Development (Cheddar)
    Mr. Wigginasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will now hold a public inquiry into the development of lime kilns in Batts Combe Quarry at Cheddar in the county of Somerset.
    The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Gordon Oakes): No, Sir. Planning permission containing stringent conditions was granted by Somerset County Council in March 1973, and my right hon. Friend could hold a public inquiry at this stage only if he were to initiate revocation proceedings. He sees no reason to do this.
    Mr. Wiggin: I entirely accept the hon. Gentleman's truthful and sensible answer. Will he correspond with himself and his 19 hon. Friends who put down an early-day motion in the previous Parliament asking for a public inquiry? Furthermore, does he appreciate that the Labour candidate in my constituency at the last election, encouraged by the hon. Member for Bristol, South (Mr. Cocks), who instigated the motion, promised that Labour Ministers would hold a public inquiry?
    Mr. Oakes: The question of a public inquiry related to the call-in of the planning application. It would require revocation proceedings, and, as the hon. Gentleman is aware, the building now exists.
    Mr. Palmer: Will my hon. Friend appreciate that his answer disappoints not only those who have been pressing for the inquiry but those of us on this side of the House who are connected with the West Country who have been pressing for such an inquiry over a long period?
    Mr. Oakes: The difficulty is that the actual building is now in being. However, I can promise my hon. Friend that the stringent conditions laid down by Somerset County Council will certainly have to be adhered to.
    Mr. Boscawen: I recognise the realism that comes upon the Labour Party when it takes office, but will the hon. Gentleman recognise the enormous efforts that have been made by the Somerset County Council to reconcile the conflict of interests between the quarry industry and those who regard amenities as of great importance? Will he also recognise the great change of heart that has taken place during the past three years by the quarry companies themselves which wish to live up to their responsibilities and are spending a great deal more money on improving the sites of their quarries?
    Mr. Oakes: I agree that Somerset County Council has taken great care in this matter, both with regard to local amenities and particularly with regard to traffic. The traffic flow may well be lessened by having the lime kilns where they are.

    Tenants (Harassment)
    Mr. Raphael Tuckasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he

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    will introduce legislation to stop the practice known as "winkling" by persons who engage in the business of estate agents.
    Mr. Freeson: I am considering further action, although it may be difficult to improve the law on harassment. Vigorous enforcement by local authorities of the existing provisions of the law could go a long way to stamp out such abuses.
    Mr. Tuck: Is my hon. Friend aware that many so-called estate agents are combining property dealings on a huge scale with their orthodox agency activities and are running veritable empires of property dealing? I mention two: the Lofts Estate Agency and Mr. Oliver Burge. This is regarded as unethical by leading professional bodies. Will my hon. Friend consider introducing legislation compelling anyone who sets himself up as an estate agent to have professional qualifications and to join a recognised and professional body, such as the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors, to make impossible that sort of dodge?
    Mr. Freeson: I accept what my hon. Friend says, that these abuses occur and are to be deplored. On the question of legislation, I can only say at this stage that the matter is under consideration. It is a matter of reform of the law which has previously been considered in Parliament. I shall consider the matter further.
    Mr. George Cunningham: May I ask my hon. Friend not to overlook the fact that some firms of solicitors are prepared to put their names and prestige behind some of the activities mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Mr. Tuck)?
    Mr. Freeson: Yes, I am aware of that as well. If there were to be a change in the law covering the matter raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Mr. Tuck), it would necessarily have to deal with certain other spin-off activities, so to call them, which are concerned in this type of abuse.

    South Bedfordshire (Speed Limits)
    Mr. Madelasked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether, in view of the traffic conditions in villages in South Bedfordshire, he will reconsider
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    the criteria issued by his Department for determining whether 30 mph speed limits should be imposed and if he will make a statment.
    Mr. Carmichael: Yes, Sir. We shall be discussing revised criteria with the new local authorities in the next months.
    Mr. Madel: In view of the planned growth of population in these villages, the ever-increasing volume of traffic and the urgent need to alter the criteria, may I ask the Minister whether his reply means that he will have early talks with the new Bedfordshire County Council?
    Mr. Carmichael: On the last point, once the new local authorities have settled down there will be general discussions with them. On the other matter, because of the build-up in certain villages and the fact that certain village routes are main routes in some instances, there will be a variation in some of the criteria.
    Mr. Winterton: What progress is being made with designated routes for heavy vehicles, especially in country areas? Further, is the hon. Gentleman aware that the proliferation of traffic signs and road safety signs is beginning to make jungles of what have hitherto been attractive villages?
    Mr. Carmichael: The question of heavy goods vehicles raises a much more complicated matter than can be dealt with on this Question. The signs to which the hon. Gentleman refers are, unfortunately, required. As speeds increase, and as more people travel on the roads, more signs will be required. However, every effort will be made to standardise signs and make it as easy as possible for people to be directed properly on the road without too much inconvenience or damage to roadside amenity.

    Rate Support Grant (Ealing)
    Mr. Molloyasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will explain the degree to which ratepayers in the London borough of Ealing can expect to benefit as a result of the Rate Support Grant Order 1974 which he has made.
    Mr. Oakes: The domestic rate relief in Ealing for 1974–75 will now be 13p in the pound, instead of 7·5p in the

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    pound as proposed by the previous Government. The corresponding increase in the estimated rate support grant is £1·4 million.
    Mr. Molloy: I thank my hon. Friend for that welcome reply. It is a sensible counter-inflationary measure. Does my hon. Friend agree that inasmuch as we all acknowledge that local government is almost the core of our civilisation—it is in the town halls where the real work is done by a magnificent voluntary spirit—the whole question of local government finance is desperately in need of examination and overhaul?
    Mr. Oakes: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that matter, and, with him, I acknowledge the enormous amount of work that has been done, and is being done at present, in reorganisation by local government. As to how local government finance as a whole should be reorganised, I expect that we shall have a prolonged spell in office to consider how to improve the present system.
    Mr. Farr: Can the hon. Gentleman say what particular speciality there is about Ealing which halves the rate for domestic ratepayers while, at the same time, the rate of the domestic ratepayers in Leicestershire is quadrupled? Is not this a clear case of political gerrymandering?
    Mr. Oakes: On the last point, clearly it is not a question of political gerrymandering. If the hon. Gentleman was present at the rate support grant debate, he will know that many of my hon. Friends were highly critical because their authorities lost and that those of many right hon. and hon. Members on the Opposition side of the House gained as a result of the fixing of 13p. Ealing has a lot of problems as a London borough, and because of that we thought it right to make the grant 13p across the board, which was a fairer method than the previous Government's allocation.
    Sir G. de Freitas: When the Government review the rate support grants and finance generally, will they take account of the counties which suffer enormously from having a great financial burden as a result of overspill from cities, encouraged by successive Governments?
    Mr. Oakes: This is a problem that has been raised by many of the delegations
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    I have seen. We hope to start the rate support grant negotiations for next year as soon as possible in order to have a much more sensitive formula than the present one. I hope that that will take into account some of the difficulties to which my right hon. Friend has referred.

    Housing Land
    Mr. Allasonasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what steps he is taking to increase the supply of land for house building.
    Mr. Freeson: There is no evidence that land for house building is in short supply at present; this is not surprising when house building itself is at its lowest level for more than 25 years.
    Mr. Allason: Does not the hon. Gentleman accept the proposition that the reason for the high price of land is its shortage, and that if there were a considerable increase in the supply the price would fall? Is he satisfied with current prices of housing land?
    Mr. Freeson: No, I am certainly not satisfied with current prices of housing land. However, there have been some rather chequered experiences in land prices within the past year or so, largely linked up with the catastrophic drop in house building under the previous Government.
    Mr. McNamara: Can my hon. Friend say when we may expect to receive legislation bringing development land into public ownership?
    Mr. Freeson: This matter is being worked upon at present in the Department. No doubt future Questions will be dealt with adequately by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Planning and Local Government.
    Mr. Arthur Jones: Will the hon. Gentleman elaborate on that and say what is implied by "taking into public possession"?
    Mr. Freeson: There is a later Question on the Order Paper, on which the hon. Member will be able to pursue the matter in greater detail.
    Mr. Tyler: Will the Minister recognise that a much more effective way of reducing the price of land is to introduce a

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    land value tax immediately on the granting of planning consent, with an escalating rate as the years go by? Will he accept that, contrary to the view just expressed by the hon. Member for Daventry (Mr. Jones), it is impossible to increase the supply of land without building out into the seas around us?
    Mr. Freeson: I take that last subtle point, but I do not accept the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question.

    Planning Procedures (Dobry Report)
    Mr. Blenkinsopasked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he has considered the implications of the interim report of Mr. George Dobry on planning procedures; and what action he proposes.
    Mr. John Silkin: I would refer my hon. Friend to the answer given to the right hon. and learned Member for Hertfordshire, East (Sir D. Walker-Smith) on 25th March.—[Vol. 871, c. 28–29.]
    Mr. Blenkinsop: While welcoming any action of a practical kind on the part of my right hon. Friend, as indicated in the earlier answer, may I ask whether he nevertheless agrees that the real cause of discredit of planning is the recent purely negative rôle of development control? Will he insist that the Government's new proposals about land ownership ensure that planning is given a positive rôle?
    Mr. Silkin: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comment. It is a view that has been held by me and my family for the past 25 years.
    Mr. Rossi: Will the right hon. Gentleman give urgent and immediate consideration to three propositions in the interim report? The first is public involvement. Too few local authorities still do not notify their communities of the impact of local planning applications. The second is the setting up of planning advisory centres, so that both the applicant and the public can obtain advice on a technical and difficult aspect of the law. Thirdly, there are the very useful comments made by Dobry on the slowness and difficulties involved in planning appeals. That is one of the factors which hinder the bringing forward of land for housing development.
    Mr. Silkin: There is no difference between us regarding public involvement. It is a matter which can be carried a great deal further. I am wholeheartedly in agreement with planning advisory centres. The hon. Gentleman may know that an experimental planning advisory centre is being set up in Winchester. We hope that it will give us a great deal of information and that it will lead to further extensions of this very good proposal.
    The appeal procedure has been somewhat lengthened by the large number of planning applications during the past two years or so. There is a considerable backlog, much of which is now being dealt with. People wishing to make planning application should be encouraged to go for written representation when they can. Sometimes there is prejudice against it, but by now a large number of applications are being dealt with by written representation. Those who make written applications do not complain about the procedure, and the time taken is considerably less than with the normal appeal procedure.

    Clay Cross
    Mr. Adleyasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he has any plans to pay an official visit to Clay Cross.
    Mr. Crosland: I have at present no plans to do so.
    Mr. Adley: That is probably a very wise decision. Will the right hon. Gentleman take an opportunity to censure the aggressive and arrogant behaviour of a small number of people in Clay Cross and reject the outrageous proposals made by his right hon. Friend the Leader of the House at the last Labour Party conference? Will he take an opportunity to tell the House and the country where he stands in the battle of thuggery versus the rule of law?
    Mr. Crosland: The hon. Gentleman was a Member in the last Parliament, so he knows perfectly well where I stand on the rule of law. On the more general questions he raises, a Government statement on Clay Cross will be made tomorrow. As regards the speech of my right hon. Friend the Lord President of the Council at the party conference to

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    which I listened, by far the greater part of it was a devastating critique of Tory housing policies. He made one or two references at the end of his speech to the question of Clay Cross and no doubt they will be alluded to in the statement to be made tomorrow.
    Mr. Skinner: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Clay Cross council is far from being composed of thugs? The council introduced free milk for schoolchildren, free television licences for every old-age pensioner in the town and a comprehensive warden scheme for all the old people in the town, the like of which has not been seen in the rest of the country. Will he bear in mind that in February 1973 the previous Secretary of State for the Environment met the other council, Conisbrough, which had been surcharged by another auditor for twice as much as the Clay Cross council had been surcharged and that after a mysterious meeting which took place at Whitehall the surcharge on the Conisbrough council was removed?
    Mr. Crosland: I was not aware of the last point made by my hon. Friend.
    Mr. Skinner: Check it.
    Mr. Crosland: Provided my hon. Friend ceases threatening me, I shall check it. The other, wider issues will no doubt be the matter of some discussion when the Government statement is made tomorrow.
    Mrs. Kellett-Bowman: If the right hon. Gentleman will not go to Clay Cross, will he go instead to Ince-in-Makerfield and make close inquiries into the property speculation in which close associates of the Prime Minister are alleged to be involved?
    Mr. Crosland: That was a very distasteful supplementary question.
    Mr. Frank Allaun: When my right hon. Friend makes his statement tomorrow, will he take into consideration the fact that there have been several important precedents for Parliament passing retrospective legislation to correct injustices?
    Mr. Crosland: I am aware of what my hon. Friend says. There is an interesting point in the action taken by the last Government in relation to Merthyr
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    Tydfil. All these matters will be discussed on the Government statement tomorrow.

    Rate Support Grant (Preston)
    Mr. Thorneasked the Secretary of State for the Environment how the Preston District Council may be affected by changes in the rate support grant.
    Mr. Oakes: The domestic rate relief in Preston will now be 13p in the pound, instead of 13·5p in the pound proposed by the previous Government. The corresponding reduction in estimated rate support grant is about £31,000.
    Mr. Thorne: Does my hon. Friend agree that although this may seem a small sum it will have an impact in the Preston area? Does he further agree that yet again we are concerned with the allocation of scarce resources, and will he exercise some influence upon the Government to ensure that the resources allocated to arms expenditure are suitably reduced in order to meet people's needs in the Preston area?
    Mr. Oakes: I mentioned the £31,000, not to minimise the matter but to draw attention to the fact that many authorities which are very worried about the rate support grant have not really grasped the fact that it was the previous Government's rate support grant measures that we in principle had to adopt because of the time factor. With regard to the rate support grant in the future, we are considering how to allocate central Government support more fairly and effectively.
    Mr. Marten: Does the Minister agree that possibly the way to cut back arms expenditure for the hon. Member for Preston, South (Mr. Thorne) would be to look at the British Aircraft Corporation works at Preston?

    Housing (Compulsory Purchase)
    Mr. Cyril Smithasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will announce early plans to correct the anomalies existing in the Land Compensation Act 1973 whereby people who live in houses on which compulsory purchase orders have been served, but who are rehoused by the relevant local authorities before the compulsory purchase orders have been confirmed, lose their rights under the Act.
    Mr. John Silkin: I am writing to the hon. Member on a case he has recently drawn to my attention. If he cares to send me details of any other cases he has in mind, I shall be glad to look at them carefully to see whether any anomalies arise.

    Railways (Investment)
    Mr William Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the future investment programme for the railways.
    The Minister for Transport (Mr. Frederick Mulley): I am considering the Railways Board's proposals.
    Mr. Hamilton: Does my right hon. Friend recollect that one of the promises on which we fought the election was that we would increase investment on the railways and attract freight and passenger traffic from the roads? Does he not agree that this is particularly relevant in Scotland where North Sea oil is extremely important and the demands on the roads are becoming impossible? Will he give an assurance that there will be a White Paper very soon and that the investment in rail will be not less than that envisaged in the original White Paper?
    Mr. Mulley: I am sure that my hon. Friend is right in stressing the relevance of railway investment, but I think he will also understand that, much as the present Government have already done, to perform all the election manifesto in a month would have required an incredible speed of operation which I could not hope to maintain. However, I can tell my hon. Friend that I shall not take three and a half years as the previous Government did to state our railway policy. I am concerned to make it known as soon as possible.
    Mr. Wigley: In giving consideration to his future investment programme, will the right hon. Gentleman give particular attention to the electrification of the North Wales Coast railway line through to Holyhead and also to the continuance for a considerable time of the Cambrian Coast railway line?
    Mr. Mulley: I think the hon. Member should know that the proposals for investment are submitted in the first instance by the British Railways Board. I do not take these decisions for the
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    railways, but I certainly have a very warm spot for electrification. [Laughter.] Some hon. Members may think that I should sit on such a warm spot. I authorised the electrification programme from Preston to Scotland which is to be opened next month.
    Sir John Hall: Will the right hon. Gentleman clarify a point which he seems to have put in doubt? Is it or is it not the intention of the present Government to implement the railway investment programme that was announced by the last Government?
    Mr. Mulley: I should be in some difficulty in announcing it as the last Government stated it, because is was announced in the House in November and was cut by the Chancellor of the Exchequer within a month of its having been announced. I shall certainly announce our railway investment programme as soon as possible.

    Maplin
    Mr. Moateasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will announce the cancellation of the Maplin project.
    Mr. Crosland: I have nothing at present to add to my answer to the hon. Member for Essex, South-East (Sir Bernard Braine) on 20th March and the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade on 21st March.—[Vol. 870, c. 107; c. 1334–40.]
    Mr. Moate: Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that on 16th January he told the House not that there would be a review but that the next Labour Government would in a matter of weeks cancel Maplin? Can he tell us whether the present review is genuine, thereby implying the possibility that the project will continue, or whether his earlier promise was genuine, because one of them cannot be genuine?
    Mr. Crosland: There may perhaps be more than one precise interpretation of the phrase "a matter of weeks". I can assure the hon. Gentleman of two things: my views on Maplin have not changed, but the review is a genuine one.
    Sir J. Rodgers: Is the right hon Gentleman yet in a position to consider other methods of saving money? For example,

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    what are his views on the Channel Tunnel? Is it to be cancelled or deferred?
    Mr. Crosland: I shall be making a statement on the Channel Tunnel at 3.30 p.m.
    Mr. Crouch: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House what is holding up his decision? Is it because he does not know where the next airport in Britain should be or where the next seaport should be? It would help the House to know what is holding up this decision.
    Mr. Crosland: The review of the airport need is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade. He has promised to report the result of the review to the House before the Summer Recess, and I think it not unreasonable that a few weeks should be taken in reviewing the matter. I have no detailed proposals before me for a seaport, so I have no decision to make on that.

    Motorway Hazards (News Dissemination)
    Mr. Leslie Huckfieldasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will take steps to introduce a code of practice with a view to improved coordination between the broadcasting and police authorities and the motoring associations in the transmission of motorway accident and fog information; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Mulley: There are already close relations between these three parties. I shall review the arrangements in conjunction with the report of the tragic accidents on the M1 on 13th March last.
    Mr. Huckfield: Will my right hon. Friend first repudiate the suggestion put forward by the RAC—possibly the silliest suggestion it has ever made—that it was the 50 m.p.h speed limit that was responsible for this last pile-up? Is he satisfied that the present system of co-ordination between the broadcasting authorities, the police and the motoring organisations does the maximum not only to get information to the motoring public about where the fog is but what they ought to do when they are in it?
    Mr. Mulley: I think that it would be asking a little too much for the broadcasting authorities to give detailed driving
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    instructions. I hope that all motorists, before they go on the road, whether there is fog or not, will acquaint themselves with the necessary steps to take and, most important, not drive at 50 mph when it has been broadcast on the radio, well before an accident, that there is only 25 yards' visibility on that section of the road.
    Mrs. Chalker: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the possibility of installing additional hazard warning systems for this eventuality, which so often follows on motorways with so little warning? Little seems to be being done. Will the right hon. Gentleman, having considered it, make a statement to the House?
    Mr. Mulley: I do not think that the problem is a lack of new devices. It is a case of extending the already well-developed computer-controlled system. I have been in my office for only a month, so I cannot take full responsibility for all the deficiencies in the transport system as I find it, but I shall certainly do what I can to satisfy the hon. Lady on the matter she has raised.

    Pudsey-Dishforth Motorway Link
    Mr. Giles Shawasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the latest position with regard to the proposed Pudsey-Dishforth motorway link, in the light of recent cuts in public expenditure.
    Mr. Carmichael: The Pudsey-Dishforth route is at a very early stage of preparation and is not directly affected by the recent expenditure cuts. Work already in hand to collect essential traffic information is continuing.
    Mr. Shaw: May I ask the Minister for further enlightenment on this matter? Does his answer mean that it is not in the programme as offered by the previous Government and that it is further postponed, or is it a matter upon which the Minister has not yet decided?
    Mr. Carmichael: No. There is still a great deal of information to be obtained before a final decision in this area may be made.
    Mr. Ford: Is my hon. Friend aware that in the Bradford area, where great

    1251
    steps have been taken, backed by local resources, to diversify in industry, there is much anxiety that there should be adequate access to the motorway network, particularly to the North-East and to the North-West?
    Mr. Carmichael: That is part of the reason for the fact that studies are being undertaken on the need for this road.
    Dr. Hampson: Will the Minister consider establishing a planning inquiry commission so that there may be full public scrutiny of the whole road strategy of the area between the Mersey and the Humber, as there are so many road projects for this area? In fact, individual planning inquiries cannot take account of the change of traffic flow that each of them has on neighbouring areas or areas in the middle such as mine.
    Mr. Carmichael: The established procedures will provide a wealth of information and provide plenty of opportunity for the public to make their views known. I do not believe that any other special consideration need be given to this matter.

    Improvement Grants (Newcastle-upon-Tyne)
    Mr. Elliottasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he is aware of the delay caused by shortage of skilled labour in the building trade to schemes which have obtained grant approval in Newcastle-upon-Tyne; and if he will consider extending the period in which grants approved at 75 per cent. can be allowed.
    Mr. Freeson: I would refer the hon. Member to the answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley (Mr. Rose) on 18th March.—[Vol. 870, c. 25–6.]
    Mr. Elliott: I am aware of that answer. Does the hon. Gentleman appreciate that the delay in presenting new legislation to introduce such grants as were embodied in the Housing and Planing Bill of the Conservative Government makes it essential to extend the present period of grant?
    Mr. Freeson: Even had the Housing and Planning Bill introduced by the previous Government been proceeded with, there would still have been a problem
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    arising on the point that the hon. Member has put to me. I am not sure, therefore, that the point he has now put in his supplementary question is entirely relevant.
    Mr. Edwin Wainwright: Will my hon. Friend take into account the fact that because of the shortage of labour and materials many individuals are finding it extremely difficult to get their repairs and alterations done? Some of these people are elderly and have spent all their money on the houses in which they live and want to modernise them. Will my hon. Friend take that into account?
    Mr. Freeson: Certainly. We are giving this matter urgent consideration, and I hope that shortly we shall be able to make a statement on the matter.

    Roads
    Mrs. Renée Shortasked the Secretary of State for the Environment what proposals he has for the future motorway programme.
    Mr. Matherasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement on the implementation of the road programme.
    Mr. Mulley: I am satisfied that, after allowing for a substantial transfer of traffic and resources from road to rail, the continued development of a national network of inter-urban roads is justified. I am reviewing the priorities of individual schemes within the programme in the light of the funds likely to be available over the next few years.
    Mrs. Short: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there is a widely held view that the whole of the motorway programme needs to be re-examined on the grounds of cost to the nation, land use and national amenity? Is he further aware that many people feel that part of the cost of the motorway programme should be used to improve the urban bottlenecks within our towns and cities rather than that we should carve up great swaths of countryside to build more motorways? Will he carry out such a reexamination before taking steps to build any more motorways?
    Mr. Mulley: We are reviewing the whole programme, but I think that my

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    hon. Friend is not expressing a majority view when she suggests that the interurban fund should instead be spent on building roads in urban areas.
    Mrs. Short: I did not say that.
    Mr. Mulley: Indeed, I have received a great deal of contrary advice to the effect that it is the urban roads that create blockages in urban areas. There is a lot of controversy. I find that some of the most eloquent advocates of no road building are the most persistent supporters of a particular road development. That in essence is the problem.
    Mr. Mather: Will the right hon. Gentleman give a date for the start of the Esher bypass, bearing in mind that this idea was conceived 30 years ago and we are still waiting for it?
    Mr. Mulley: I am afraid that I cannot give a detailed reply to a general question of that sort. I shall let the hon. Gentleman know the answer.

    M3, Lightwater-Sunbury
    Mr. Jesselasked the Secretary of State for the Environment on what date he now expects to open the final section of the M3 motorway from Lightwater to Sunbury.
    Mr. Carmichael: I have nothing to add to the answer given to the hon. Member for Basingstoke (Mr. Mitchell) on 25th March.—[Vol. 871, c. 28.]
    Mr. Jessel: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the prospect of the completion of the eastern end of M3 gives rise to a great deal of anxiety in the Twickenham area because of fears of a heavy increase in the volume of traffic, not only on the Great Chertsey Road but on turnings leading to Kingston and Hampton Court bridges and in Whitton? Will he take these anxieties seriously and stand by the decision of his predecessor to taper the eastern exit from M3 from three to two lanes?
    Mr. Carmichael: I read the speech that the hon. Gentleman made last July about this matter. As he probably knows, a working party, comprising the Department, local authorities and police, is now considering all the various measures that may be required to cope with the increased volume of traffic. Some
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    of these measures have already been announced.

    Green Belt Land
    Mr. Norman Fowlerasked the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will make a statement on his policy concerning the preservation of green belt land.
    Mr. Crosland: The preservation of green belt land is an important aspect of the Government's determination to protect and improve the environment. I shall support the policy of maintaining green belts and will consider sympathetically proposals for their extension.
    Mr. Fowler: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that reply. Will he confirm that the Government's policy is that it is better to develop derelict land for housing than to use fresh green belt? If that is so, will he recognise that there is no case for allowing Birmingham to sprawl further into the green belt when it has now been found that 7,500 acres of derelict land exist in the West Midlands?
    Mr. Crosland: I read with great interest the hon. Gentleman's speech in the Adjournment debate on 12th March. I am aware of his views on this matter. I understand that the proposals to which he has referred will come to me for decision, and I shall try to take a view on them by the early summer.
    Mr. Blenkinsop: Would my right hon. Friend agree, however, that there are methods other than green belt by which to achieve the same aim of preserving open space?
    Mr. Crosland: Yes, I would agree, but so far those other methods do not command universal assent and are not part of the policy of the present Government any more than they were of the previous Government. Until we have an alternative strategy for saving the countryside, we should stick to the one that we have.
    Mr. Michael Latham: Does the Secretary of State accept the policy of his predecessor that 2,000 acres of what one might call "scruffy" metropolitan green belt should be released as quickly as possible?
    Mr. Crosland: I said in reply to a Question asked a few days ago by the

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    hon. Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. Allason) that I should take a view on that question when I had detailed proposals from the standing joint conference.

    Rate Support Grant (Liverpool)
    Mr. Loydenasked the Secretary of State for the Environment how the Liverpool District Council will be affected by the changes in the rate support grant.
    Mr. Oakes: The domestic rate relief in Liverpool for 1974–75 will now be 13p in the pound, instead of 7p in the pound proposed by the previous Government. The corresponding increase in the estimated rate support grant is £1·85 million.
    Mr. Loyden: I welcome the almost life-saving effect on Liverpool of the Government's decision. When making the assessment of the 1975–76 rate support grant, will my hon. Friend consider giving more positive discrimination in areas such as Liverpool which still have housing and other environmental problems?
    Mr. Oakes: I am grateful for what my hon. Friend has said. The additional assistance to Merseyside is the effect that we had in mind in adopting a flat rate of domestic relief. We will certainly be considering how we can allocate central Government funds more fairly next year.
    Mr. Raison: Can the hon. Gentleman say whether the additional money which will now go to the big cities as the result of the reallocation of the domestic element in the rate support grant will be spent on additional services, as it should be, as opposed to reducing the rates?
    Mr. Oakes: That is a matter for the local authorities.

    Davyhulme Sewage Works
    Mr. Churchillasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will make a statement about his Department's experimental programme at the Davyhulme sewage works.
    Mr. Oakes: My Department is supporting two small research projects at Davyhulme. The first, into the use of pure oxygen in the activated sludge process of sewage treatment, is nearing completion. The second, into the physicochemical treatment of sewage, for which plant is being installed, is expected to
    1256
    start in the autumn and will continue for several years.
    Mr. Churchill: Can the hon. Gentleman say what assistance the Government are willing to give Greater Manchester and the regional water authority to mitigate the intolerable levels of smell to which my constituents are subjected from the sewage works, and what research his Department is sponsoring into more efficient and acceptable means of disposing of this waste, in particular for recapturing some of the methane gas and making use of it for energy purposes?
    Mr. Oakes: Although the House treated with some mirth what the hon. Gentleman said, I can assure the House that it is not a matter for mirth to the hon. Gentleman's constituents, who have to suffer living near the sewage works. As far as we can ascertain, it is not the research projects which are responsible for the smell. Some emanation of smell is inevitable from a sewage works. I am satisfied that Manchester has done all it can to mitigate this situation. It will now be a matter for the regional water authority, and I hope it takes effective measures to reduce any effects of nuisance from this work.

    70 mph Speed Limit
    Mr. Whiteheadasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will now restore the 70 mph speed limit in force before the recent fuel emergency.
    Mr. Mulley: My hon. Friend will know that the 70 mph limit was restored on motorways last Friday. There is still need for economy in the use of petrol, and for that reason it is not yet possible to restore the 70 mph speed limit on other roads.
    Mr. Whitehead: May I congratulate my right hon. Friend on resisting the extensive lobbying for a permanent 50 mph speed limit? Does he agree that the high cost of petrol is likely to be a much greater incentive to voluntary saving by motorists than the limits temporarily enforced during the state of emergency, which grossly overtaxed the police and were in any event widely violated after the first week or so?
    Mr. Mulley: I am much obliged to my hon. Friend. I agree with him that

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    it would be wrong to abuse this emergency for a drastic change in the level of speed limits.
    Mrs. Knight: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm whether there was a reduction in the accident rate on the motorways during the 50 mph period?
    Mr. Mulley: Yes, I can confirm that the figures for December show that there was a fall of about 9 per cent. We do not have the figures for January and February yet, but in addition to the lower speeds there was a great deal less traffic, particularly during the petrol shortage last December.

    Aire Valley Motorway
    Mr. Cryerasked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will give early consideration to the cancellation of the Aire Valley motorway.
    Mr. Carmichael: No, Sir.
    Mr. Cryer: Is my hon. Friend aware that many of my constituents would prefer new schools to new motorways, that they are already appalled at the low level of compensation proposed for people affected and are very suspicious that this motorway is part of a much larger, expensive network, and that it should be treated as such and not in isolation?
    Mr. Carmichael: I hope that we treat all motorways as part of a general plan and not in isolation. As to the question of compensation, I have received no evidence from any source of a suggestion that compensation is inadequate. I shall he only too pleased to consider any information which has been given to my hon. Friend.

EEC MINISTERIAL MEETING
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. James Callaghan): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I will make a statement about the meeting of the Council of Foreign Ministers in Luxembourg on 1st and 2nd April.
Before I begin my report I should like to express the Government's deepest sympathy with the French people at the tragic death of President Pompidou. He was a great French leader who has earned a place of prominence and dis-
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tinction in the history of France and of the world. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has sent messages to the French Prime Minister and to Madame Pompidou and I have sent a personal message to the French Foreign Minister, M. Jobert. I am certain the House will wish to join with me in offering our most heartfelt condolences to Madame Pompidou and to the people of France at this moment of sorrow and loss.
In Luxembourg on Monday afternoon I made a statement outlining the broad scope of the issues on which the Government seek a renegotiation of the terms of entry into the Community. They include the unfairness of Britain's budgetary contribution, the effect of the CAP on this country, the need to safeguard the interests of the Commonwealth and of the developing countries, and certain problems of the British economy. The statement has been published as a Command White Paper.
In the discussions that followed the members of the Council took note of the position of the Government of the United Kingdom. Some inevitably saw greater difficulties than did others. But on more than one topic the response was clearly sympathetic. No one doubts that difficult negotiations lie ahead. Nor, I think, does anyone doubt our good faith in the conduct of the negotiations. The first step has been taken. We and the other members of the Community are now preparing for the second step, when the Government of the United Kingdom will place before the Council our detailed proposals. Renegotiation has begun.
In the course of my statement I made clear to the Council that we shall continue to participate in Community business pending the outcome of renegotiation, subject only to our renegotiating position not being prejudiced. The Secretary of State for Trade, the Minister of State at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and I therefore took part in the discussion of a number of detailed items on the Council agenda. I am having a summary account of the outcome of these discussions placed in the Library of the House.
Late—very late—on Monday night and on Tuesday there was an important discussion about political relations between

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the nine members of the Community and other countries, particularly the United States. Most of the members present were largely agreed on the vital need to maintain the closest relations with the United States and on the means of doing this. Unfortunately, we were unable to achieve unanimity, which I much regret. There will be further discussions about this in a few weeks' time, when I hope further progress will be possible.
Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I should like to associate myself and all my colleagues on the Opposition benches with the tribute that the right hon. Gentleman paid to President Pompidou and his services to his country, to Europe and to the world.
My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition and I had opportunities during the last year or 18 months to watch his indomitable courage as illness closed in upon him. He never for one moment allowed the frailty of the body to undermine his sense of duty to France, to the French people and to Europe. He set an example to all who, in the high offices of State, lead and seek to serve. I join the Foreign Secretary in sending messages of sympathy to Madame Pompidou and to the people of France.
The right hon. Gentleman made a statement which perhaps in the circumstances was a bit short and bland. I should like to ask him three questions.
First, will the right hon. Gentleman confirm the impression that he so clearly left with the House in our recent foreign affairs debate—namely, that in seeking modification, adaptation, renegotiation—whatever one likes to call it—of Community policies he intends to use the machinery of the Community, the Commission and the Council of Ministers to arrive at a compromise agreement?
Secondly, I think it would be unreasonable, in view of the situation created by President Pompidou's death, to ask the right hon. Gentleman for a timetable for this programme of renegotiation, but will he keep the House informed, as he sees the future programme more clearly and how it is to unfold?
Lastly, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reflect upon his first appearance at the Council of Ministers and to ask himself seriously whether, when seeking compromise among friends in nego-
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tiating a settlement of difficulties, it is right at the start to threaten that unless he gets all he wants he will break up the partnership? With respect to the right hon. Gentleman, that does not seem good diplomacy. I hope he will seriously consider the consequences should Britain leave the Community.
Mr. Callaghan: The answer to the right hon. Gentleman's first question is that we shall use the machinery of the Community.
The answer to the second question on the timetable is that I do not think that I can go further than I went last week in the debate. As the right hon. Gentleman said, the situation is, clearly, also affected by events in France.
On the right hon. Gentleman's third question—yes, I certainly will reflect upon it. I am willing to take advice from anyone on how to conduct negotiations. If good diplomacy led to the nature of the bargain that was struck by the previous Government, then perhaps a little rougher diplomacy will not come amiss. It will not be for the British Government to break up the Community. That decision will be put to the British people, as it should have been in the first place, and they will decide.
Mr. Steel: Is the Foreign Secretary aware that in his tribute to President Pompidou he speaks for the whole House and that the Liberal Party wishes to be associated with it?
Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm, particularly as he was a member of the Government in 1967 who applied for membership of the Common Market, that the present Government remain wholly committed to membership in principle, including the necessary pooling of sovereignty that that involves, and that he is merely seeking modification of the present policies of the Common Market?
Mr. Callaghan: I do not think that I can add much to what I said in my statement, except that since 1967 the attitudes of the Community have developed a great deal. The communiqués at the Hague, Paris and Copenhagen have carried the intentions of the signatories to those communiqués a lot further than was intended in 1967.
Mr. Jay: Is my right hon. Friend aware that after the last four years the

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public will applaud the Minister who both keeps his election pledges and speaks for Britain, and that they will also watch closely to see that he keeps it up?
Mr. Peyton: I am sure that everybody would applaud the right hon. Gentleman's intention to sustain this country's interests. Nevertheless, will he watch the situation very carefully lest the roughness of his diplomacy leaves us very short of friends?
Mr. Callaghan: When I came to office I was aware that there were considerable differences between us and some of our principal allies, which distressed me very much indeed. It will be my job to try to repair some of those differences.
Mr. Christopher Mayhew: If it is true, as reported, that the Foreign Secretary declined a courtesy call from the President of the European Parliament, may I ask him to give the reasons for his friendlier attitude to the Council of Ministers and to the Commission than to the Parliament?
Mr. Callaghan: I read this report in the newspapers. The matter seems to have been blown up out of all proportion. We were there for 27 hours. I know that one session finished at 2 a.m. and started again at 9.30 a.m. I should have liked to see a number of people. I think that they all understood the difficulties. The only outside contact that I had was with the President of the Commission, President Ortoli. As far as I know, Dr. Berkhouwer is the only one who seems to have take umbrage at the situation.
Mr. Marten: As one who has deep feelings for France, may I express sympathy to the French on the death of President Pompidou, who was a great Frenchman.
I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his robust statement in Brussels. The White Paper on renegotiation of the terms of entry, says at the foot of page 4, that,
"whilst the negotiations proceed and until the British people have voted, we shall stop further processes of integration …"
May I assume that the negotiations have now started and that we shall therefore not have further processes of integration until after a referendum or whatever?
Mr. Callaghan: We ought to look at this in a practical way. We should not unduly hold up the work of the Commission if our vital interests on renegotiation are not affected. That is the practical approach which we should make, and the one which has been put to the Foreign Ministers, who fully understand it.
Mr. Michael Stewart: I associate myself with what has been said about the tragic death of President Pompidou.
Is my right hon. Friend aware that many hon. Members on these benches wish him success in the task which he is skilfully undertaking and that at the same time they are firmly convinced that continued membership of the Community is of great importance to Britain and that withdrawal would do this country great damage?
Mr. Callaghan: Yes, Sir, I am well aware of those views. If we can achieve a renegotiation that satisfies the conditions which we set out in our election manifesto, we shall have both safeguarded Britain's interests and restored a healthy Community.
Mr. St. John-Stevas: Is not the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) valid, that if the Foreign Secretary continues to follow a policy of inglorious isolation both within and without the Community we shall be left without a friend in the world?
Mr. Callaghan: This is probably not the day to go into differences with any particular ally, but throughout the whole of Monday night and Tuesday morning I found myself in a majority of eight.
Mr. Milne: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his statement adds a new dimension to the speech he made recently in the House and that renegotiation means a serious attempt to get the terms which Britain wants, and that if the terms are not available the question of withdrawal is also on the agenda?
Mr. Callaghan: The hon. Gentleman states the position exactly. There are important issues, political issues, at stake in Europe—of which I am conscious—about the relationship between Germany and her neighbours, which demand that

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most serious efforts should be made to ensure the success of the negotiations.
I shall do my best to achieve success, and I shall have no hesitation in coming to the House if I believe that successful negotiations have been achieved and that I have the support of colleagues in saying so. But it is also true that the British people should have the right to declare themselves on these matters.
Mr. Evelyn King: I have a question which goes a little wide of the Common Market. Is it not a fact that a treaty is signed by Britain and not by representatives of any particular party and that it is within the tradition of the Foreign Office that a treaty, once signed, is respected whichever party comes into office? Will the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is in his power to respect that tradition?
Mr. Callaghan: I do not think that the matter goes wide of the Common Market. Indeed, it is essential to it. Any changes in the Treaty of Accession or the Treaty of Rome will present great difficulties to all the parties concerned. Changes would need to be ratified by each individual parliament. This is why I have started, with the consent and aid of my colleagues, by saying, "Let us find out how far the objective of securing a fair bargain for Britain can be assured by a change of policies and direction and by the attitude of the Common Market". If we find that the objective cannot be secured, we shall have to propose changes in the Treaty of Accession and thereafter see whether these changes are necessary.
As to the consent upon which a treaty rests, no treaty can in the long run survive unless it rests on the will of the people.
Mr. William Hamilton: Is my right hon. Friend aware that he has the full-hearted consent of this side of the House to the way in which he has handled himself in Europe during the past few days? Will he give an assurance that it is a long-term aim to secure terms which would enable us to stay in the Community rather than to seek excuses to get out?
Mr. Callaghan: Yes, Sir. That has been and still is our policy. We want to get the right result. We are not seek-
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ing excuses to get out. We want to see whether we are able to achieve a bargain which will be fair and which, when put to the British people, will enable us to stay in. That has always been the policy of the party when in opposition and it is Government policy now.
Mr. Rippon: I accept that negotiations in the Communities is a continuing process, but will the Foreign Secretary, before he gets too rough in his own negotiations, bear in mind that a number of his Cabinet colleagues accepted accession to the Treaty on the basis of the terms originally negotiated? Will he undertake that before he lays detailed terms before the Communities he will have formal consultations with the developing and other Commonwealth countries, and with British agriculture and industry, to ensure that their interests are adequately protected in the negotiations?
I welcome the priority which the Government give to maintaining close relations with the United States, but will the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that this means that there will be no difficulty regarding the provision of bases for the United States whether in Scotland or in the Indian Ocean?
Since the Government say that they want to participate in the continuing processes of the Community while the negotiations go forward, why not send a delegation to the European Parliament?
Mr. Callaghan: On the question of consultation, the whole purpose of our discussions is to achieve better access to our markets and to help developing nations by such access. Therefore, while I do not undertake to hold formal consultations, continuing consultations will still go on.
There is no difficulty about the question of the bases. In the context of multilateral disarmament, we shall be putting forward certain proposals which will be considered against any offers from those with whom we are negotiating.
On the question of the European Assembly—which I think is the proper term—my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House has made our position quite clear.
Mr. English: Is my right hon. Friend aware that it cannot be the lowest of

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tributes to pay to President Pompidou that he was a believer in democracy to such an extent that he sought a referendum of the French people on our admission to the Community? We congratulate my right hon. Friend on his renegotiation and we hope that he will remember President Pompidou's precedent.
Mr. Callaghan: France was not the only country which had a referendum, although theirs was on whether Britain should be admitted. Other countries had referenda on whether they should enter the Community. So far as I know there is nothing undemocratic in holding a referendum or for that matter a General Election.
Mr. Hurd: Would the right hon. Gentleman not accept that if he pours so much cold water on one of the basic aims of the Community, namely, that members of the Community should speak as often as possible with one voice, he is weakening his bargaining position and reducing the chance of success?
Mr. Callaghan: I am not sure what the hon. Gentleman means. I am all in favour of meeting other Foreign Ministers and trying to get a common approach, if we can, on problems of common concern. I have shown that attitude during the past 24 hours, and I shall continue to show it. It is a sensible attitude.
It is not wise to try to paper over real differences with formulae which do not carry forward the conduct of international affairs. That is not wise. Nor does it seem sensible that as a result of continuing consultation with those with whom one is unable to agree—I speak here not for Britain but for any member of the Community—effective action by all is paralysed. These considerations have to be taken into account.
Mrs. Winifred Ewing: May I add to the expressions of regret on the death of President Pompidou those of the Scottish National Party, on behalf of a nation which was an ally of France for hundreds of years? Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that the term "consultative referendum" sounds like a referendum in which, after the wishes of the people have been consulted, there is no clear, direct and binding obligation to carry them out? May I ask the right hon. Gentleman
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to pin himself down? If he has such a referendum, will it be window-dressing or does it mean that his Government will carry out the wishes of the people?
Mr. Callaghan: With all respect to the hon. Lady, I think that that goes far wider than my statement.
Mr. Faulds: Will my right hon. Friend accept that not all of us are entirely out of sympathy with the French position vis-à-vis America and that to some of us it seems unacceptable that European decisions should be dependent upon the rubber stamp of American approval?
Mr. Callaghan: If that were the position, no one would agree with it, but it is not the position. The whole point, surely, is that the United States of America and Europe are mutually interdependent on questions of defence. It is the judgment of the Government, and of myself most strongly, that we cannot be allies on matters of defence and be enemies in matters of trade and monetary arrangements.
Mr. John Davies: May I also say a word about my great sense of personal loss on the death of President Pompidou?
I was glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that his assurance of negotiating in good faith was well accepted by his partners in the Community, because on reading his statement I was in some doubt whether that would be the case.
In relation to what the right hon. Gentleman said about continuing to negotiate on matters which can be ongoing matters in the Community, may I have his assurance that the prosecution of the pursuit of a regional policy in the Community, which had reached such a mature state of discussion when the Dissolution of Parliament took place, will not be discontinued at the will of the Foreign Secretary?
Mr. Callaghan: Certainly the discussions can go on. The deliberations may have been mature, but I am not sure whether they were ready for plucking.
Mr. Spriggs: May I assure my right hon. Friend that he represents a Government, the only Government, who have sent a Foreign Secretary to Europe for renegotiation purposes with a mandate

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from the people of this country? Furthermore, may I assure him that he has the confidence of every hon. Member on this side of the House?
Mr. Callaghan: I am obliged to my hon. Friend. What is clear about the renegotiations which are going on is that never before has a party spelled out so fully to the electorate, both in the written word and in the speeches which were made by my colleagues and by myself night after night to audiences during the recent General Election, exactly what they intended to do and the way in which they intended to go about it.

CHANNEL TUNNEL
3.54 p.m.
The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Anthony Crosland): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I will now make a statement on the Channel Tunnel.
On 25th October last year my colleagues and I, on behalf of the Labour Opposition, divided the House on an amendment which stated that, while we were not opposed in principle to a Channel Tunnel, we declined to approve the scheme in its present form and demanded an inquiry into alternative transport strategies. In line with this attitude, the Government have decided that a full and searching reassessment of the project should be carried out before any decision is taken to embark on the main works.
The current phase 2 already provides for a joint reassessment of the traffic, revenue and financial forecasts in the light of changes in, for example, the energy outlook. But I shall in addition, as a matter of urgency, consider whether the studies now in hand fully cover the points which we and others raised in the last Parliament, and I propose to seek outside advice. In particular, I shall examine with the French Government and the Railways Board the need to orient the project much more strongly towards through rail services.
I have concluded that to keep open the option of eventually going ahead with the tunnel it would be right for phase 2 to take its course. I shall therefore reintroduce the Channel Tunnel Bill. In order to avoid abortive costs to peti-
1268
tioners I shall introduce it in the same form as in the last Session. I stress that the object of proceeding with phase 2 is to keep our options open. It does not prejudge any decision on the project beyond the end of the present phase. Before phase 2 ends in the summer of next year I shall report the outcome of the reassessment to the House. Parliament and the Government will then have finally to decide whether or not to sign Agreement No. 3 and build the tunnel.
Mrs. Thatcher: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for making his statement. It is perhaps worthy of note that the original agreement in principle on the Channel Tunnel was signed in 1966 between the present Prime Minister and President Pompidou. Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that we welcome his decision to go ahead with phase 2 and to complete it? We were not committed beyond the completion of that phase. We also welcome his decision to have the phase 2 reassessment—the provision which that phase itself made.
However, would the right hon. Gentleman be a little more forthcoming about the review and the studies which he now has in hand? His statement was a little vague on this point. Dealing with previous debates, he said that he expected the study fully to cover the points raised then. Having been through those debates, may I ask him whether he expects such a review to be completed by the end of the summer, because almost every point was raised? Would he expect that review to include alternative strategies for providing for the large volume of both freight and passenger traffic which will undoubtedly take place? Would he also be more forthcoming about the nature of the outside advice that he proposes to seek?
Mr. Crosland: I would certainly expect the review to be completed not by this summer but by next summer. The summer of 1975 is what phase 2 requires and what I mentioned in my statement. The review will certainly take account of alternative transport strategies. Our criticism on this side in the debates last autumn was that the Government's proposals were based on the wrong transport strategy. We shall certainly examine alternatives. As for the outside assessment of the consultants' further work, I

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have not yet decided the form that this will take, but I hope to announce it to the House when I do.
Mr. Tomney: Will my right hon. Friend, when it comes to the siting of the Channel Tunnel terminal in my constituency, pay due regard to the wishes of my council and of my constituents, who are opposed to the project? If it goes ahead, there will be a tremendous loss of jobs in the area as well as of land for housing and general development. The citizens of Hammersmith are not in favour of such a project as is envisaged.
Mr. Crosland: I am well aware of the difficulty which will be created for Hammersmith by the White City terminal and of my hon. Friend's strong feelings on the matter, which he has articulated in the House before. Nevertheless, it is the view of the GLC, which, of course, was originally attracted by the Surrey Docks area—
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Robert Mellish): They are not having that either.
Mr. Crosland: Thank you. Even before that decisive interjection from my right hon. Friend, it was already the view of the GLC that the White City was the only practicable site for the London terminal.
Mr. Marten: The Minister has referred to studies of alternative methods of transport. Does that include alternative transport across the surface of the sea rather than the old-fashioned idea of going under the Channel?
Mr. Crosland: No, Sir, although this possibility has been advanced in the House by a number of enthusiasts, one of whom, I am happy to say, has been silenced by becoming a member of the Government. The only practicable choice that we have at present is between a tunnel, on the one hand, and air and sea services, on the other hand.
Mr. Leslie Huckfield: What is the cost of phase 2 as now envisaged, and what is the total cost of the project as my right hon. Friend now envisages it? In view of the current energy and public expenditure constraints, is my right hon. Friend still convinced that we need the currently proposed underwater vehicle ferry? Will
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he give an undertaking seriously to reexamine the whole question of the proposed mix of public and private capital?
Mr. Crosland: The total cost of phase 2 is £30 million, of which £15 million will fall on Britain and £15 million on France. The only cost in terms of public expenditure—this is a contingent cost—is the Government guarantee on the loan which forms part of the £15 million. Concerning the mix of traffic, this will be almost the central aspect of the reassessment which we propose to make. We on the Government side of the House took the view strongly in the debates that we have had that we wanted a much heavier orientation towards rail and away from the concept of the rolling motorway.
Mr. Costain: In making his reassessment, will the Secretary of State make certain that proper consideration is given to what the alternative road pattern will be for Folkestone and Dover, and will he particularly announce a decision about the A20 before reaching a final decision on the Channel Tunnel? Does he appreciate that people in my constituency are extremely worried that the present expenditure could be a waste of money unless the Government are proposing to continue with this project?
Mr. Crosland: I cannot give an undertaking on the second point because the House and the Government, at the end of phase 2, will have to decide whether or not to proceed with phase 3. On the question of roads, I take the hon. Gentleman's point. The factor about the roads in Kent, which was brought out in all our debates, is that whether or not we build the Channel Tunnel we shall have a vast increase in traffic going in the direction of Dover and Folkestone.
Mr. Stephen Ross: I am glad to hear from the Secretary of State that the Government are proceeding with the introduction of the Bill and to read of the promise made by the right hon. Gentleman that he is to consult more fully with the British Rail Board. We on the Liberal bench consider that a rail-only tunnel has considerable merit, subject to the proviso that access points should be more widely distributed throughout the country and that there should not be one massive distribution area in Kent. [HON. MEMBERS: "Question!"]
Sir Harmar Nicholls: "Is the right hon. Gentleman aware?"
Mr. Crosland: As hon. Members of the last Parliament will recall, I was initially a supporter of a rail-only tunnel, but on closer examination I do not think that a rail-only tunnel is a possible answer. What we must have, however, is a tunnel far more oriented to the rail side of the traffic and less to the rolling road ferry service.
Mr. Ogden: By whom will the reassessment be undertaken? Will those undertaking it be asking for evidence or points of view from other organisations? Is it to be a reassessment entirely within the Department, or in the form of a Green Paper? What particular form will it take? Is my right hon. Friend able to give any assurance about the proposals for putting phase 2 forward, and the work that will follow from that, and the danger that would arise for industry, the Channel Tunnel and British Railways if there were to be a time lag between the ending of the work at that stage and the possibility of work carrying forward again under any different proposal that Parliament may implement?
Mr. Crosland: I take note of my hon. Friend's third point, on which I cannot give a precise answer now. I should like to consider what he has said. On his first and main point, the reassessment will be carried out by a number of people acting jointly—the United Kingdom Government, the French Government, British Railways—and basing themselves on the detailed work done by the consultants who carried out the studies during phase 1. But, in addition to that, as I have told the House already, I am anxious to have an outside group of people who will consider critically the studies that come from the consultants, and we have not yet decided on that group.
Mr. Wells: I welcome the right hon. Gentleman's conversion from rail-only, and I am delighted to hear that the Liberal Party has now grown up a little. Can the right hon. Gentleman say that this delay will not have an adverse effect on those people in Kent who are worried about the alternative decisions between roads A, B and C in East Kent and roads 1, 2 and 3 in West Kent, and who do not know what will happen to their property
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and are full of anxieties? Can the right hon. Gentleman give some assurance to those people who are worried about personal details?
Mr. Crosland: I recognise the anxieties to which the hon. Gentleman has referred, but I fear that there is nothing that I can do to allay them because the delay is implicit in having a phase 2 at all. In any circumstances, phase 2 would have led to a delay in re-examination and reappraisal, which I fear is bound to leave uncertainty persisting while it occurs.
Mr. Hooky: In making this reappraisal will my right hon. Friend pay special attention to the economic impact of this project from a regional point of view, in regard to the South-East Region vis-à-vis the other regions of this country? Will he pay particular attention to the problem that if it is to be primarily a rail tunnel the marshalling and assembly of freight need not take place in the South-East at all?
Mr. Crosland: I am very conscious of the point made by my hon. Friend. The regional aspect was one of the matters which were heavily underlined in the terms of the amendment which I moved on behalf of the then Labour Opposition last October.
Mr. Peyton: May I offer my most cordial congratulations to the right hon. Gentleman and to the Government on their conversion or, perhaps, re-conversion, to this project, and may I say how welcome it is that they should now have adopted almost in their entirety the proposals of the previous administration?
Mr. Crosland: I think that the right hon. Gentleman is aware that my views on the broad principle of the Channel Tunnel have not altered since we started debating the matter in the House. But if he thinks that the strategy and the proposals which are likely to emerge from our reassessment bear any close relationship to those which came out of his policies he had better think again.
Mr. Dalyell: What rôle is envisaged for private capital?
Mr. Crosland: The rôle envisaged for private capital so far has already been announced in phase 1 when the Channel Tunnel Bill was published. What rôle

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there will be for private capital concerning phase 3 is a matter which will be included in the reassessment which we shall undertake under phase 2.
Sir John Rodgers: is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his decision to embark on a reappraisal and reassessment will be greeted in many quarters of Kent with great support? As part of that reassessment will the right hon. Gentleman say whether British Railways will continue immediately with the talks which they have delayed up to date with the people who will be affected by the rail line, and that meetings will be held in various parts of my constituency, which will be greatly affected, with British Railways, his Department, Kent County Council and the local authorities?
Mr. Crosland: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman. Yes. Following my statement today, British Railways will at once resume consultation with the county and the districts, and my Department will be involved in that.

INFLATION
Sir Harmar Nicholls: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration; namely,
"the need for a period of an all-party approach to deal with an inflation which has been accelerating since 1968–69, first because of wage costs and subsequently and more recently as a consequence of world commodity and oil prices, as well as wage costs, which has now reached a rate of over 13 per cent. and which, according to the Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection, is likely to reach a level of 15 per cent. this year—which may well be an understatement—a rate of inflation which inevitably carries with it the threat of economic stagnation and heavy unemployment by the end of the year unless we can secure a Government which can carry the confidence and enthusiasm of trade unions, management, investors and savers; recognising that some trade unions would have insufficient confidence in a Conservative Government and that management and investors have insufficient confidence in a Labour Government, at a time when the nation now needs the wholehearted efforts of all these groups, as a matter of supreme urgency, to safeguard our standard of life at home and our influence abroad".
There can be no doubt about the importance of this matter. If inflation continues, wages, pensions and everything
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else will fall through the floor. In view of the influence that Britain must wield in the world, we must have a Government which carries the confidence of the world.
The urgency is certain. Unless we start on this matter in a co-operative way at once, it may well be that events will overtake us before we are in a position to apply the remedies.
I believe that Parliament as a whole should now give instructions to the Government that this is what the nation needs and what the nation's future deserves, and it is with that thought in mind that I submit my motion to the House.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member has asked leave to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 to discuss the matter he has outlined. No doubt these are most important matters, but in my view they are not appropriate to he debated under Standing Order No. 9, and I must reject the application.

DR. MICHAEL WINSTANLEY
4.11 p.m.
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Edward Short): I beg to move,
That, in accordance with the provisions of section 6 of the House of Commons Disqualification Act 1957, this House directs that the disqualification incurred by Dr. Michael Winstanley by virtue of his employment in the Civil Service of the Crown as a sessional medical officer at the Royal Ordnance Factory, Patricroft, shall be disregarded for the purposes of that section.
The motion is necessary because it has recently come to light that the contractual conditions attaching to the post of sessional medical officer at a Royal Ordnance factory, which is referred to in the motion, amount to employment in the Civil Service of the Crown in the sense that disqualifies the holder from membership of this House. Since he became aware of this, Dr. Winstanley has resigned the position, and I am satisfied that there was nothing improper about the way the appointment was made or in the conduct of Dr. Winstanley in this part-time fee-earning post.
Dr. Winstanley has attended at the factory for one hour each Monday and each Friday.

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This is an appropriate case for the exercise of the power contained in the House of Commons Disqualification Act 1957 for the House, by order, to direct that the disqualification be disregarded. In the motion I am giving the House the opportunity to exercise that power, and I ask the House to agree to it.
4.14 p.m.
Mr. Dennis Skinner: This measure is what is known as retrospective legislation. Seeing it on the Order Paper today, I turned to the editorial columns of the leading newspapers, which are commonly known as the "heavies", to see whether there was any contribution from those offices in Fleet Street, Printing House Square and elsewhere, about whether it was right and proper for Members of Parliament to permit this retrospective legislation to apply so that a previous Liberal Member, Dr. Winstanley, could take his place in this House.
Why did I expect the columns to include references to this important legislation? For one thing, the motion was to be moved by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House who has been referred to on more than one occasion in reference to so-called retrospective legislation as it affects the Clay Cross Council. [HON. MEMBERS: "Declare an interest".] It would seem to me that The Guardian, The Times and the Daily Telegraph, which at one time commented on the fact that the Clay Cross councillors were using the law too often, should have referred to this new piece of legislation.
Some people might laugh and scoff at the idea. I guess, however, that if the media did their job properly they would report upon the fact that a Member of Parliament was brought into this House through a piece of retrospective legislation when it seems to me that he broke the law—[Interruption.]—and that if he did not break the law then he cheated, and if he did not cheat. [HON. MEMBERS: "Order".] Remember, Mr. Speaker, this man was appearing on Granada Television every week in a programme called "This is Your Right", describing to viewers precisely how they could look after themselves. Yet this same man signed a nomination paper in
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the knowledge that he was prevented from taking his place in the House of Commons—and if he did not know that he was so prevented, he was as naive as the rest of the occupants of the Liberal bench.
Mr. Cyril Smith: Is the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) aware that a candidate does not sign a nomination paper?
Mr. Skinner: Where ignorance is bliss—and there is a row of them. We should bear in mind the vitriolic attacks on the 11 decent councillors and at the same time remember that one Member of Parliament, cosseted by privilege, who happens to be a doctor and who never dirtied his hands in his life, is allowed to come in here because he happens to be elected as a Member of Parliament. It is like a great many more of the issues that confront our people. That is why they are cynical about some of the actions and attitudes that present themselves in this House. There are certain people in this country who are entitled to privilege, and there are those like the 11 at Clay Cross who cannot get a decent crack of the whip. This measure exemplifies to a great degree what this place is all about. It will look after some people but it will not look after others.
If my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House had done his duty today he would have brought in not one motion, but two, and he would have given these 11 councillors the same opportunity that he is extending today to a particular Member of Parliament.
4.18 p.m.
Mr. Michael English: Although my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) has a rather different style of speaking from myself, I think that he has a good point. The reason that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House was referring to "Dr. Winstanley" is that until the motion is passed he is not the Member for Hazel Grove. We are not being impolite by referring to him in that way; we are being precise.
If the motion is retrospective, what are the consequences of that? Presumably, if the motion were not passed Dr. Winstanley would be liable in law to all the penalties pertaining to a person who,

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while not entitled to do so, sits and votes in the House of Commons. I do not know whether that is true, and I simply seek clarification. Possibly it is not true.
We gather that as soon as he knew the true situation, Dr. Winstanley resigned his position, as is right and proper. However, will he be collecting two sets of salaries for the overlapping period before he knew of the circumstances? We have had no information on that point, but it would be an unusual situation, not equalled since the eighteenth century, if a civil servant were also receiving a Member of Parliament's salary.
One simple question concerns me deeply, and perhaps hon. Members on the Liberal bench will answer it. In the Labour Party, before we sign a consent to nomination—this meets the point made by the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Smith)—all of us are sent a document by Transport House—I suspect that the same thing is done by Central Office for the Conservative candidates—telling us to have a look at the House of Commons Disqualification Act and to make sure that we are not disqualified. I am a little concerned that that does not happen in the Liberal Party. A party which cannot organise itself cannot expect to take an efficient part in the governing of the country. If it is not done, then I believe it should be done. Whatever the Liberal Party's procedure, it did not seem to work in this case.
4.21 p.m.
Mr. David Steel: I think that it is necessary to add to what the Leader of the House has already said. When Dr. Winstanley discovered that there was likely to be an irregularity, he came to see me immediately. I advised him to take the matter to the Clerks of the House. Immediately the matter came to light he absented himself from the Chamber and from the Division Lobbies. He has been removed from the one Select Committee to which he had been nominated. Dr. Winstanley raised the matter with the House authorities.
It should be made know to the House that Dr. Winstanley has held this position since 1950 in the course of his general practice as a member of a group practice. It is not a new position. He has no direct income from these sessions
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because, as is normal in a group practice which is engaged to carry out work on behalf of a firm—in this case an establishment of the Ministry of Defence—the income goes into the group practice. That should be made clear.
Dr. Winstanley has held this post since 1950 on an informal basis. He held it, together with his fellow members of the practice, when he was a Member of the House from 1966 to 1970. There was never any suggestion at that time that it was an office of profit under the Crown. [HON. MEMBERS: "Why not?"] If hon. Members will be quiet I will explain why the situation has changed.
During the time that Dr. Winstanley was a Member he was unable to carry out the duties, and the work was done by a partner in his practice who died in 1973. Following his partner's death, when he was not a Member of this House, Dr. Winstanley was able to resume his duties in his own name.
Because of the Contract of Employment Act, it was suggested a contract should pass between him and the Royal Ordnance Factory. That was done in May 1973. It is on the basis of that contract that judgment has rightly been made that Dr. Winstanley holds a position of profit under the Crown.
Most reasonable hon. Members will accept, given that sequence of events, and bearing in mind that he had previously been a Member of this House, that Dr. Winstanley had no reason to assume that he was in any way disqualified from membership of the House.
If the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) reads Section 6 of the House of Commons Disqualification Act 1957—
Mr. Skinner: I have read it.
Mr. Steel: Then the hon. Gentleman will have read that the House decided in 1957—and this is the first case to arise since then—to make certain provisions which would apply when inadvertently, and through no fault of a Member, it was found that there might be some minor technical matter which would disqualify him. The House then decided that it should be allowed to make up its mind whether it would be proper to set aside a technical offence.
Mr. Skinner: The hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. Steel) referred to Section 6 of the House

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of Commons Disqualification Act 1957. Section 6(2) says:
"If in a case falling or alleged to fall within the foregoing subsection it appears to the House of Commons that the grounds of disqualification or alleged disqualification under this Act which subsisted or arose at the material time have been removed, and that it is otherwise proper to do so, the House may by order direct that any such disqualification incurred on those grounds at that time shall be disregarded for the purposes of this section."
That complies with the point which I was making. Insofar as such provisions disqualify councillors from local government, the penalties have now been removed because Clay Cross Council does not now exist. Therefore, the case is a parallel and complies with my previous point.
4.26 p.m.
Mr. John Mendelson: I rise to support my right hon. Friend. I do so because I am convinced that we are far too horrified by the words "retrospective legislation". It is not always conducive to the best conduct of public business to be so horrified. There is a good case for the motion which my right hon. Friend moved.
I also have a great deal of sympathy for the point of view which has been expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), who represents in a real sense, together with another Derbyshire Member, the idealism of the Clay Cross councillors.
It is relevant that on this occasion we should look briefly at the general problem. I think that my hon. Friend has done a good service in bringing another matter—namely the case of the Clay Cross Councillors—into this short discussion. We might be better advised not to oppose the motion and not to question the underlying motives—
Mr. English: I am not.
Mr. Mendelson: I am not suggesting that my hon. Friend is doing so. I said "we", whilst giving a general guide as to how the House might conduct itself on this occasion. We might be better advised not to oppose the motion. There is wisdom in the provisions of the Act. It is quite possible either for an honourable man to be mistaken about his own position or, as history has proved, for
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honourable men to be engaged in a campaign of principle out of their fundamental idealism against what they consider to be repressive legislation. Then, in the words of John Locke, the philosopher of the glorious revolution, all powers return to high Heaven.
We are dealing with a time-honoured radical tradition. While it would not be the same thing to argue that it should be accepted as a doctrine on which either a Government or a party should give advice, the right of individual people in public life to take the view that it is right to act in accordance with their profound principles must be accepted as good practice. We owe many of our liberties to people having done that throughout the ages. In supporting my right hon. Friend, I take the view that it is right and proper to apply the same principle to other people, such as Clay Cross councillors, who have honourably stood up for what they believe should be their rights.
4.29 p.m.
Sir David Renton: There is no question of the procedure which has been used today being used to cover the Clay Cross case which has been mentioned by the hon. Members for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) and for Penistone (Mr. Mendelson).
Mr. Speaker: Order. There have been passing references to the Clay Cross case. We cannot argue whether that case could be covered by a similar procedure. That is a different topic.
Mr. Mendelson: I was not arguing that it came under the same provision but that it was the same principle.
Sir D. Renton: Your intervention, Mr. Speaker, has made it unnecessary for me to take that point further.
The House of Commons Disqualification Act was passed to try to bring order to confusion and to an unjust situation which potentially affected many hon. Members. The distinctions with which the Act tried to deal were found, when we legislated, to be so artificial that we had to have the special procedure, which is an unusual one, which is used by the Government today—namely, the Section 6 procedure.
In fairness to the hon. Member, to whom I think we are entitled to refer

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as Dr. Winstanley, we must bear in mind that it was just for such a case that the Section 6 procedure was introduced. I am prepared to support the Leader of the House.
4.30 p.m.
Mr. Edward Short: This is, indeed, retrospective in the sense that it would legitimise the membership of Dr. Winstanley from the date of the General Election. But, as the right hon. and learned Member for Huntingdonshire (Sir D. Renton) said, Section 6 of the 1957 Act was specifically designed to deal with just this situation. Previously an individual indemnity Bill was necessary, and the offender had to be relieved of various penalties attaching to sitting and voting when disqualified. Those penalties no longer apply under the 1957 Act, but Dr. Winstanley has not taken part in any proceedings since the matter came to light.
Dr. Winstanley was unaware that his part-time employment disqualified him until after his election. It was only after his election that the Ministry of Defence pointed out the incompatibility of his appointment with membership of the House. There had, in fact been an error. I have discussed this with the Secretary of State for Defence, and the Department has promised in future to inform candidates before the election and not after it.
This motion is not about Clay Cross. Obviously, that situation could not be dealt with under Section 6. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will shortly make a statement about that.
The hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. Steel) said that Dr. Winstanley had held this post for several years, and we learn now that the problem arose when Dr. Winstanley signed a contractual agreement on 24th May 1973 when he was not a Member of the House. The fact that there was incompatibility was not pointed out to him until after the election.
It is a difficult situation. Dr. Winstanley has not acted improperly in any way. Had he done so, I should certainly not have brought the motion to the House.
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I invite the House to approve the motion.
Question put and agreed to.
Ordered,
That, in accordance with the provisions of section 6 of the House of Commons Disqualification Act 1957, this House directs that the disqualification incurred by Dr. Michael Winstanley by virtue of his employment in the Civil Service of the Crown as a sessional medical officer at the Royal Ordnance Factory, Patricroft, shall be disregarded for the purposes of that section.

DR. MICHAEL WINSTANLEY
  REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE
  Mr. Secretary Jenkins, supported by Mr. Edward Short, Mr. Secretary Ross, and Dr. Shirley Summerskill, presented a Bill to increase the limits on candidates' election expenses at certain local government elections in Great Britain: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 14.]
  PRICES
  Mrs. Secretary Williams, supported by Mr. Secretary Foot, Mr. Secretary Benn, Mr. Secretary Ross, Mr. Secretary Shore, Mr. Secretary Rees, Mr. Secretary John Morris, Mr. Fred Peart, Mr. Edmund Dell, Mr. Alan Williams, and Mr. Robert Maclennan, presented (under Standing Order No. 91 (Procedure upon Bills whose main object is to create a charge upon the public revenue)) a Bill to authorise the payment of food subsidies; to confer on the Secretary of State power to regulate the price of food and certain other goods and on the Price Commission additional powers for preventing or restricting increases in prices and charges; to make provision for requiring prices to be indicated on or in relation to goods offered or exposed for sale by retail; to confer power to abolish the Pay Board; and for purposes connected with those matters; And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 15.]

  LOCAL REVENUE
  Mr. R. Graham Page presented a Bill to authorise local authorities to promote lotteries, to charge fees in relation to applications for planning permission and

  1283
  to levy a rating surcharge upon the occupiers of hotels: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 3rd May and to be printed [Bill 16].

  REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE (No. 2)
  Mr. Cranley Onslow presented a Bill to enable electors who are away on holiday at the time of a Parliamentary election to vote by post or by proxy, to amend the law about the registration of members of the forces and about the correction of the register of electors, and for related purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 10th May and to be printed. [Bill 17.]
  TOWN AND COUNTRY AMENITIES
  Mr. Michael Shersby, supported by Sir John Rodgers, Mr. G. R. Strauss, Mr. Grimond, Mr. Geoffrey Ripon, Sir Geoffrey de Freitas, Mr. Michael Grylls, Mr. Ronald Bell, Mr. Tony Durant, Mr. Robert Cooke, Sir Edward Brown, and Mr. John Wells, presented a Bill to make further provision for the control of development in the interests of amenity, for the preservation and enhancement of conservation areas and of buildings of architectural or historic interest and their surroundings and landscapes, and for related purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 17th May and to be printed. [Bill 18.]
  YOUTH AND COMMUNITY
  Sir Edward Brown, supported by Mr. Nicholas Winterton, Mr. David Mudd, Mr. Michael Roberts, Mr. Philip Holland, Mr. Charles Morrison, and Mr. Robert Cooke presented a Bill to make further provision with respect to youth services in the community and participation by youth in community development; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 17th May and to be printed. [Bill 19.]

  REHABILITATION OF OFFENDERS
  Mr. Piers Dixon, supported by Mr. Kenneth Marks, Sir Edward Brown, Mr. Paul B. Rose, Mr. Mark Carlisle, Dr. Edmund Marshall, Mr. Edward Gardner,
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  Mr. David Watkins, Mr. Michael Shersby, and Mr. David Weitzman, presented a Bill to rehabilitate offenders who have not been reconvicted of any serious offence for periods of years, to penalise the unauthorised disclosure of their previous convictions, to amend the law of defamation, and for purposes connected therewith: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 3rd May and to be printed. [Bill 20.]

  EDUCATION (MENTALLY HANDICAPPED CHILDREN) (SCOTLAND)
  Mr. Hamish Gray, supported by Mr. Hector Monro, Mr. Teddy Taylor, Mr. George Younger, Mr. Russell Johnston, Mr. Donald Stewart, Sir John Gilmour, Mr. Iain Sproat, Mr. Michael Clark Hutchison, Mr. James Sillars, Mr. Harry Ewing, and Mr. Anthony Stodart, presented a Bill to make provision as respects Scotland for discontinuing the ascertainment of mentally handicapped children as unsuitable for education at school, to impose a duty on education authorities to provide for the education of such children whether accommodated in a hospital within the meaning of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1960 or otherwise, and for purposes connected therewith: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 3rd May and to be printed. [Bill 21.]
  SPOUSES OF UNITED KINGDOM CITIZENS (EQUAL TREATMENT)
  Mrs. Lena Jeger, supported by Mr. Paul B. Rose, Mr. Arthur Davidson, Mr. Emlyn Hooson, Mrs. Lynda Chalker, Mr. A. E. P. Duffy, Mrs. Joyce Butler, Dr. Maurice Miller, Miss Betty Boothroyd, Mr. Leslie Huckfield, and Mrs. Dun-woody, presented a Bill to amend the law so that non-British men marrying British women shall have the same rights with regard to settlement and citizenship as non-British women marrying British men: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 10th May and to be printed. [Bill 22.]

  PUBLIC LENDING RIGHT
  Mr. Kenneth Baker, supported by Mr. Norman St. John-Stevas, Mr. Ernle Money, Mr. Andrew Faulds, Mr. Clement

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  Freud, Mr. Jeffrey Archer, Mr. Robert Cooke, and Mr. Charles Fletcher-Cooke, presented a Bill to provide assistance to authors by establishing a public lending right and by other means; and for connected purposes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 10th May and to be printed. [Bill 23.]

  CARRIAGE OF PASSENGERS BY ROAD
  Mr. Edwin Wainwright, supported by Mr. Marcus Lipton, Mr. John Peyton, Mr. Leslie Huckfield, Mr. David Mitchell, Mr. Neil Kinnock, Mr. Ray Mawby, Mr. Ted Leadbitter, Mr. Kenneth Marks, Mr. Richard Kelley, and Mr. A. E. P. Duffy, presented a Bill to give effect to a Convention on the Contract for the International Carriage of Passengers and Luggage by Road, and for purposes connected therewith: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 3rd May and to be printed. [Bill 24.]
  PUBLIC AUTHORITY DWELLINGS (RIGHT TO PURCHASE)
  Mr. Fred Silvester, supported by Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg, Mr. Harold Gurden, Mr. Cyril Smith, Dr. Rhodes Boyson, Mr. Ian MacArthur, and Sir John Rodgers, presented a Bill to extend to the tenants of dwellings owned by local authorities and other housing bodies the right to acquire the ownership or leasehold of their homes: And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 17th May and to be printed. [Bill 25.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY

  HEALTH AND SAFETY AT WORK ETC. BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Mr. Speaker: Before calling the Secretary of State for Employment to move the Second Reading of the Bill, I would inform the House that I have not selected the amendment in the names of the hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) and others.
  4.34 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Michael Foot): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  I cannot claim, as my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State who will conclude the debate can claim, to be an expert on this subject and on the Bill. Over recent days I have spent several hours acquainting myself with the matters in the Bill, and the more I have read about them the more absorbed I have become in them. In that spirit, I think it a great honour to move the Second Reading of the Bill.
  I assure the many hon. Members present who have participated in debates on this subject much more than I have done in past years—particularly many of my hon. Friends who represent mining constituencies—that I approach the matter with some understanding of their views upon it. I shall come later in my remarks to that aspect, which is a most important one. Before doing so perhaps I might refer to the origins of the Bill.
  The first author of the Bill, indeed the author of many good things, is my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services. It was her decision to invite Lord Robens to preside over the Committee on Safety and Health at Work which examined most of the matters that are incorporated in the Bill, and it was that decision that set in motion the process which we are now seeking to complete. Lord Robens perhaps does not still hold the same high place on the pedestal in the Socialist pantheon which was once his. Some people say that he departed from this position of his own accord. Other people say that it was a case of mistaken identity from the first.

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  Whatever may be the situation, it would be churlish of me and of the House not to acknowledge the work which he and his committee did in making this measure generally possible.
  After the publication of the Robens Report there occurred what was described in one of the papers presented to me as a prolonged and intensive period of interdepartmental consultation. What that means is that there was a first-class Whitehall row. I was much too innocent to imagine that such things occurred, but I was informed that there had been a war which, although it has led to this happy conclusion, was a classic in Whitehall history. We are glad that that Whitehall war has led to triumph all round. We are prepared for the laurels to be shared by every Department in Whitehall so long as we in the Department of Employment retain the sword, as we do. We believe, therefore, that a perfectly proper arrangement has been reached.
  The right hon. Member for Penrith and the Border (Mr. Whitelaw) also played his part in making possible the peaceful conclusion of that Whitehall war. I am not sure whether he will today make the speech that he might have made on a previous occasion.
  An accident might have occurred as the result of the generally happy outcome of the General Election. It would have been the one disadvantage of that happy outcome if in the process the Bill had been lost. That might have happened, because the Government have many urgent Bills to push through. According to the newspapers, all the measures are to go through by a process of gushing unanimity. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that we shall be bringing forward other Bills which he will be able to greet with the same enthusiasm as I am sure he will show for this legislation. We believe that it is a good idea that this Bill should have been brought forward. It would have been a wretched and pitiable business if after all the work and labour put in by the various Departments, and particularly by the Department of Employment, the Bill had been lost. Therefore, we should all congratulate ourselves that the Bill has not been lost.
  Mr. Tom King: It has not been lost yet.
  Mr. Foot: And will not be lost, as I understand it.
  Anybody who wishes to understand the subject matter of the Bill which is of major significance, has only to read the opening sentences of the Robens Report. I assure the House that I have got much further than the opening sentences, but those passages show that every year, as a result of industrial injuries and accidents, nearly 1,000 people are killed, 500.000 workers are injured, and 23 million working days are lost. It is an enormous figure. When I heard the figure of 23 million, it rang a bell in my mind. I could not help wondering where I had heard the figure before—and then I remembered. The figure of 23 million was the number of days lost as a result of the first year of the operation of the Industrial Relations Act, in 1972. The Robens Report, on page 2, says that discussions on safety and health at work should play as prominent a part in our debates as should discussions about industrial relations. We agree with that view.
  Mr. Christopher Mayhew: My right hon. Friend has mentioned a figure of 23 million working days lost. Does he appreciate that 38 million working days were lost owing to mental illness in industry and that, for some accountable reason, that subject is excluded from the Bill?
  Mr. Foot: I am glad that my hon. Friend has mentioned that matter; I was sure that he would bring it in at some point or other because he is one of the signatories to the motion on that subject which appears on today's Order Paper. I am sure my hon. Friend will enlarge on this subject when he comes to speak, and I know that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State will also enlarge upon it when he replies to the debate.
  It is not correct to say that mental illness is excluded from the Bill in any sense whatever. Although in Clause 1(1)(a) we do not refer to a number of other matters and diseases and afflictions which are dealt with in the Bill, such as pneumoconiosis, these and other matters are covered by the Bill's provisions. This applies to mental illness. These matters will also be covered by the work to be carried out by the Employment Medical Advisory Service, which is incorporated

  1289
  in the Bill. I assure my hon. Friend that the investigation process and the rest of the Bill can deal with mental diseases and mental afflictions that arise from people's work. The Bill is also framed so that those matters can be dealt with in the regulations. If my hon. Friend has anything further he wishes to raise on the topic, we shall be glad to hear from him, and my hon. Friend will reply to him at the end of the debate.
  Although it is true that the measure is based on the Robens Report, I do not think it is right for anybody to jump to the conclusion that we have been confined by that report, because in several respects the Bill goes much further. In certain respects we believe that the Bill is much more precise; and although the Robens Report has played an essential part in the production of the Bill, it cannot be said to be by any means the last word on the subject. As well as having read during the last week or so the Robens Report, I have also read an excellent book on the subject entitled "The Hazards of Work and How to Fight Them", by Patrick Kinnersly, published by Pluto Press. Although that book was published only a week or two ago, I recommend it to all who are interested in this subject because I feel that the book should be set alongside the Robens Report.
  William Hazlitt used to say that a friend of his had bound in one volume a copy of Edmund Burke's "Reflections on the French Revolution" and Thomas Paine's "The Rights of Man". He said that those bound together in one book made a good book. I believe that in the same way the Robens Report and Patrick Kinnersly's book should be taken together since they make an excellent introduction to the whole Bill. It can be said that we have been able to learn something from both publications, and there is certainly a more astringent approach to the subject in "The Hazards of Work" than there is in some part of the Robens doctrine. Before the publication of the latest book the Department had discussions on this subject, representations have been made by many of my hon. Friends, and legislation has been introduced by some of my hon. Friends when we were in Opposition. Therefore, they have contributed to the nature of the present Bill.
  1290
  I come to the central feature of the Bill; namely, the proposal for establishing a Health and Safety Commission. That is overwhelmingly the most important aspect of this legislation. I must emphasise that I am not a devotee of bigness for bigness's sake. I do not think that centralisation is a good thing in itself. It is only good if it serves some other purpose successfully. Nor am I in favour in principle of hiving off bodies from the control of Government Departments and of setting up more and more new bodies whose responsibilities to this House may become more and more strained or difficult to discover. I am not in favour of dissipating departmental responsibility to this House, as has happened in some legislation in the recent past.
  It might be said by those who have listened to my presentation so far that we have departed from and defied those doctrines in this Bill. I hope to explain why that is not the case. The central proposition of the Robens Report cannot be contested. There are five Departments involved, nine statutes, 500 subordinate instruments, and seven different inspectorates—all trying to deal with this complicated modern problem that is changing all the time. The Robens Committee, on page 11 of the report, states the case most succinctly as follows:
  "No Government Department with responsibilities in this field can take any major initiative without close and extensive consultation with several other departments which have similar or related interests and responsibilities. When difficulties arise, no single department is in a position to ensure progress. In our view the obsolescence and inadequacies of many of the existing statutory provisions and enforcing arrangements are in no small part due to the fact that where overlapping responsibilities are involved 'the need to have wide consultation may mean that all can move forward only at the pace of the slowest'."
  In the face of that conclusion when dealing with matters of life and death, it was impossible for us to continue with the old system and impossible for us to avoid the conclusion that there had to be some form of centralisation to deal with one aspect of the matter, and that is what is proposed in the Bill. That will be the function of the Health and Safety Commission.
  Although that commission will be responsible through Ministers to this House, and although Ministers will be

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  responsible for the regulations which are to be passed—principally Ministers in my Department—Questions will be proper in this House in a way in which sometimes they have been prevented in dealing with the nationalised industries. It is not our intention to set up a body which becomes remote from questioning in this House. Nor do we intend to set up a body to deal with these subjects which has poor relations with the local authorities which will still have to do a great part of this operation.
  One of the successes and triumphs of those responsible for these negotiations has been the way in which they have worked out these proposals in conjunction with the local authorities, which, I understand, are fully satisfied with the arrangements that have been made. In that respect, too, we have made considerable progress.
  The Bill goes considerably further than Robens, as I have emphasised. It does so in many respects, especially in terms of enforcement. The enforcement provisions are very much stronger than anything that has appeared in this kind of legislation before. I have been much impressed by statements that I have heard from Mr. Brian Harvey, the Chief Inspector of Factories, part of whose vision and enthusiasm for this project is incorporated in the Bill. He tells me that not only does he think that this measure is the biggest one to have been seen this century but that it gives to the inspectorates and to the commission sharper, longer and tougher teeth for dealing with all the misdemeanours, mistakes and offences which may occur under the Bill. Therefore, the House can be assured that we have gone considerably further in the Bill than the so-called rather permissive arrangements which were envisaged in parts of the Robens Report and, therefore, that the measure does what the Chief Inspector has advocated, which is that we should provide greater powers for dealing with this situation.
  It was necessary because no one could be satisfied with what was occurring. Over the past 10 years or so, despite all efforts, it appeared that the numbers of accidents and injuries were not declining and that there must be an explanation for it. Moreover, there are fresh develop-
  1292
  ments in different forms of pollution and different forms of danger and menace to workers in factories and in the neighbourhood of factories. All these matters have to be dealt with by a commission with powers of initiative, powers of enforcement and powers to do the job more effectively than anything that we have had in the past.
  I come now to the matter which has given us the greatest anxiety in producing the Bill and to which we have given a great deal of attention and time in the past few weeks, having taken over the Bill.
  All along, the National Union of Mineworkers and to some extent the Mining Inspectorate have expressed anxieties about what was to happen to the Mining Inspectorate. I can well understand the attitude of the miners. I understand it partly because I represent a mining constituency and many of my constituents have discussed the matter with me over the years ever since the days of the Mines and Quarries Act 1954 and even earlier.
  No one who knows anything about the coalfields will deny that the fight for safety has had a very strong political inflection in it. It has not been possible to separate the one from the other. Part of the fight for nationalisation, if that is the right word, was a fight to ensure that miners were not sent to their deaths because of the pursuit of profits and the driving power of extra production. For that reason, it has never been possible for miners to separate safety from the most essential political questions in which they have been engaged.
  The miners approach the matter with a special interest on that account and because, long before almost any other section of workers in the country, they had established provisions which do not apply in the rest of industry. This Bill will try to apply to some of the rest of industry a number of the protections—very often trade union protections—that the miners established for themselves long before most other groups of workers.
  For all those reasons, and because the NUM has had faith in the way that the inspectorate has done its job and because it did not wish to see that position weakened, the union has expressed considerable anxiety about the Bill. It expressed them to those who were drawing

  1293
  up the Bill. Immediately we decided to proceed with the Bill we had consultations with the union to attempt to reassure it on all the questions which had caused it anxiety.
  I cannot say whether we have succeeded in allaying all those anxieties, because I know how deep they go. But we have done our best, and we shall continue to do so because we recognise the importance of the mining community, above all, understanding our purpose in the Bill.
  We have assured the miners that there will be no gap in the changeover from one system to the other. There will be no arrangement whereby the protections which they have under the 1954 Act lapse and they have to wait to see what is to be put in their place. The present protections will remain in operation until the fresh detailed regulations are agreed, and the NUM will play a leading part in seeing that those regulations have the same force as the law has now. Along with the National Coal Board and others, the NUM will have every opportunity to ensure that the regulations are designed to suit their purposes.
  Moreover, although there will be a greater unity with the establishment of the Health and Safety Commission, there will not be uniformity in the sense that it will all be one inspectorate. The separate inspectorate and the separate operation of the experts who have applied their minds to dealing with mining questions will be sustained. The identity of the inspectorate will be sustained, and the miners will have the knowledge also that any changes will have to be proposed through the Department of Employment, probably in consultation with Ministers at the Department of Energy. The inspectorate will have the fullest opportunity, as will the NUM, not merely in devising the regulations, which we believe will be amongst the very first to be put into operation, but in sustaining that consultation throughout the operation of the new arrangements. I believe, therefore, that there is every good reason for these anxieties to be allayed.
  I hope that those of my hon. Friends who represent mining constituencies will look upon the Bill as a part of the contribution that they make through their union and through the action that they have always taken over the matter of
  1294
  safety. They have pioneered the position for many other workers.
  One of the principal features of the Bill is that about 5 million workers who have previously been excluded from safety provisions will be brought within the cover of the Bill. I therefore think that the miners can congratulate themselves that they have taken part in leading the way towards this kind of development. As I told their president and officers when they came to see me on the matter, the most conclusive argument why we hope the miners will be prepared to accept the proposals we put forward—they can ask for amendments on detailed matters in Committee if they wish—is that if the mining inspectorate were to be taken out of the Bill the Bill would collapse. It would not then be possible to maintain the whole arrangement because every other inspectorate would be putting forward similar arguments, perhaps not with the same force as the miners.
  So it is essential to the Bill that the mining inspectorate shall be kept within it. That is why the TUC has been in favour of proceeding with the Bill along these lines, and I hope that on that basis my Friends from the mining constituencies will believe, as I think the officers of their union believe, that we have done everything in our power to understand and appreciate the force of their arguments.
  Mr. George Grant: My right hon. Friend has rightly voiced the fear of the mining industry that some of the regulations that the industry has fought for over many years would be eroded. Is it my right hon. Friend's intention to upgrade the Mines and Quarries Act 1954, keeping the good parts, and at the same time bringing new provisions into this Bill?
  Mr. Foot: I agree with what my hon. Friend has said, and I am glad that he put it that way. The Government believe that the protections in this Bill will be even stronger than those in that Act. The miners will have the protection they want under the new regulations. Certainly, neither I nor the Government would be party to presenting regulations governing such an important matter as this to the mining industry without the fullest consultations with the National Union of Mineworkers. I hope that they

  1295
  are assured that we are going about it in a proper way.
  I turn to another major feature of the Bill which, to some extent derives from what I have been saying and from what we have learned from experience in the mining industry. I said earlier that the mining industry had been the pioneers in the matter of safety. In Clause 2 we have gone much further than anything that was proposed in the Robens Report, and further than anything that was proposed in the Conservative Bill, in order to give the trade unions the legal right to establish safety committees and to be able to take the initiative in their establishment.
  We propose to proceed as quickly as possible with the regulations which the National Union of Mineworkers wishes to see implemented and to carry through the provisions of subsections (4), (5) and (6) of Clause 2, which show our determination that the trade unions shall be enabled and given the legal right—not merely a right at the whim of an employer—to establish the kind of committees which they think are necessary.
  Mr. Churchill: What will be the position of the safety committees already established—as they are in some factories in my constituency and in other parts of the country—in factories which are only partly unionised and where the employees as a whole have elected members to serve on a safety committee? Will they be debarred by the Bill from continuing their work on behalf of the employees?
  Mr. Foot: We shall have to see a changeover. We have set out in the Bill why we think it is the recognised trade unions which can best perform this function. I do not mean "recognised" in the ugly sense in which the word was used in the Industrial Relations Act 1971. That Act will have been repealed by the time this Bill comes into operation. It is our intention that the recognised trade unions should conduct the safety operations and the safety committees and have the initiative in these matters. We think that is the best way of dealing with the matter.
  Mr. Churchill: So the elected representatives will be debarred from continuing their work?
  Mr. Foot: We have set it out in the Bill. If the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members wish to raise further matters, I shall deal with them. I agree that it is an extremely important part of the Bill. I emphasised that at the beginning of my speech. We believe that the dangers of carrying it out in another way could lead to greater difficulties. Therefore, we have set out in the Bill the way in which we think this should be achieved.
  I should like to quote something to the House. I came across this when I was reading the accounts of how the miners had approached these safety questions. It is a quotation which strongly underlines what I am saying about making this provision necessary. It concerns the Gresford disaster. It was one of the worst—if not the worst—disasters in mining history.
  In 1937 Sir Henry Walker, the Chief Inspector of Mines, gave his statement—almost his verdict—on what had happened at Gresford. He said:
  "I hope that I am not exceeding my function in saying now what I have held for many years, that miners should be members of some effective trades union. That opinion is based on the grounds of safety, with which I am alone concerned, for I believe that a well organised trades union, wisely directed, can be as potent an influence for promoting greater safety in mines as it is already in matters, for example, of wages and conditions of employment."
  I read that passage with some astonishment. It casts a strange light on the progress that has been made in the intervening years, because of the 265 persons killed at Gresford only 78 were paid-up members of the union in North Wales. Many were in arrears with their contributions. Others, unfortunately, were non-unionists. I believe that those figures, and the judgment of one who inquired into that terrible disaster, should be noted by the House, and it should understand why the Government are so determined that the legal rights of recognised trade unions should be written into a Bill of this character.
  Mr. Michael Latham: As these regulations are to be so important—I support the principle—and as they

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  were the subject of previous Bills which were presented but did not get through this House, is not it important that the regulations should be subject to full debate by means of the affirmative resolution procedure?
  Mr. Foot: I am in favour of the regulations being debated in the House. The regulations governing the mining industry, and the clause with which I am dealing, are of first importance, and in so far as these matters rest in my hands—not everything rests in my hands unfortunately, alas for the country—I am in favour of ensuring that there will be full opportunity for the House to debate these regulations. Prior to that, my hon. Friend will be dealing with the matter more extensively later.
  I hope that the Opposition will not think it too offensive to them, or too partisan a way of approaching this matter, if I say that the Government have special reasons for thinking that we are justified in discussing this question in the way that we do, and for taking some pleasure in the proposed passage of a Bill of this kind. Almost the first Bill that was passed which could even distantly be described as a health and safety Bill—although that was carrying it too far—the Factories Act, was passed largely because of the exertions of Robert Owen, who was described, rightly, by Engels as the founder of English Socialism.
  I shall read the quotation, not only because of its intrinsic interest to this debate, but because of its related interest to the future. Prior to the passage of that Act in 1819, Robert Owen went up and down the country accompanied by his 14-year-old son, Robert Dale Owen, who later described what he had seen. That is the origin of the Bill we now seek to put on the statute book. Robert Dale said:
  "As a preliminary measure we visited all the chief factories in Great Britain. The facts we collected seemed to me terrible almost beyond belief. Not in exceptional cases, but as a rule, we found children of ten years old worked regularly 14 hours a day, with but half an hour's interval for the midday meal, which was eaten in the factory. In the fine yarn cotton mills they were subjected to this labour in a temperature usually exceeding 75 degrees; and in all the cotton factories they breathed atmosphere more or less injurious to the lungs, because of the dust and minute cotton fibres that pervaded it. In some cases we found that
  1298
  greed of gain had impelled the mill owners to still greater extremes of inhumanity, utterly disgraceful, indeed, to a civilised nation. Their mills were run 15, and, in exceptional cases, 16 hours a day, with a single set of hands; and they did not scruple to employ children of both sexes from the age of eight. We actually found a considerable number under that age.
  It need not be said that such a system could not be maintained without corporal punishment. Most of the overseers openly carried stout leather thongs, and we frequently saw even the youngest children severely beaten. We sought out the surgeons who were in the habit of attending these children, noting their names and the facts to which they testified Their stories haunted my dreams.
  In some large factories, from one-fourth to one-fifth of the children were either cripples or otherwise deformed, or permanently injured by excessive toil, sometimes by brutal abuse. The younger children seldom held out more than three or four years without serious illness, often ending in death. When we expressed surprise that parents should voluntarily condemn their sons and daughters to slavery so intolerable, the explanation seemed to be that many of the fathers were out of work themselves, and so were, in a measure, driven to the sacrifice for lack of bread; while others, imbruted by intemperance, saw with indifference an abuse of the infant faculties compared to which the infanticide of China may almost be termed humane."
  That was the account of what they saw in the year or two before the passage of that Factories Act. When the Act was brought to this House—and in this it is apposite to our present times—it was mangled and mutilated by the Opposition and by those who sought to defame Robert Owen. They even sent people up to New Lanark, not to discover how he was running his factories, but to discover some slander that they could use against him to destroy his reputation and the Bill that he sought to present to this House. To a great extent they succeeded.
  The story of what happened, not only then but for something like over 100 years after, is a strange one. It is not the story of great steady progress from one measure to another, humanely dealing with the situation; it is the story of zig-zags, backwards and forwards, fights, battles and struggles. Sometimes it was pushed forward and sometimes those Acts were revoked. Sometimes the protections were taken away; sometimes the ground that had been secured was lost.
  I am glad that there will not be quite that battle in this House now. This measure is the most important of its kind that has been introduced in this

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  House, because it contains three necessary protections which we Socialists think are essential to deal with such problems. First, it mobilises the power of the State—the community—to come to the aid of the individual. That is our Health and Safety Commission at the centre. Secondly, it guarantees the active participation of working people in the operation of institutions that are to run their lives. That is our Clause 2. Thirdly, we pin the clear responsibility on Ministers responsible to this elected House of Commons. They are the three pillars which we say are esential to the ideas of democratic Socialism, and it is in that spirit that I propose the Second Reading of this Bill.
  5.16 p.m.
  Mr. William Whitelaw: I have one thing in common with the Secretary of State, and that is that I have no great, detailed knowledge of this Bill. As he rightly said, I was engaged in what he graphically described as the period of intensive consultations, but only at the very end of them. At that time I was involved in what could be described as a little local difficulty of another character, which limited the time I could spend on the Bill and this particular argument. The important fact is that the basic administration to deal with the Bill is firmly in the hands of the Department of Employment.
  I said that I had little detailed knowledge of this Bill, but I did have a previous incarnation. In view of the right hon. Gentleman's historical researches, I think I am at least entitled to refer to some of my experiences in the more recent past. They show that Conservative administrations not only passed the first Factory Act—as the right hon. Gentleman knows and forgot to mention—but have played a considerable part since in dealing with matters of health and safety at work.
  My first duty as a junior Minister in 1962 was to play a modest part in taking the Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act through the House. It was a landmark, and was, as I think the right hon. Gentleman would agree, of considerable importance to the conditions of many people working in both industry and commerce. I was glad that as a junior
  1300
  Minister in a Conservative Government I played what might be described as a modest part in the passage of that Act. As those who took part in its Committee stage will remember, it was an extremely complex measure and some of its provisions were understood by only a few people—fortunately, those who were supplying me with the briefs on which to reply. It was not understood by the people who were asking the questions or by me as I read out some of the detailed answers. But I believe the Act is extremely effective and has done a great deal of good and I am proud to have played some part in it.
  At that time I was given by the then Minister of Labour, now Lord Blakenham, the rôle of looking after the question of safety, health and welfare work in the Ministry, so I learnt a good deal about this side of its work at first hand and I learnt how much needed to be done—and why the excellent and devoted work of the Factory Inspectorate alone could not deal with the tragic accident rate. I learnt what an enormous gap there was between different firms and different industries in their attitude to safety at work. I shall come later to some of the right hon. Gentleman's remarks about the mining industry with which, to a large extent, I agree. It was noticeable then—as I believe it is today —that between the best and worst firms and industries there was a considerable gap. To narrow that gap must be our aim in this Bill and the aim of the commission.
  It was true when I had this responsibility, as it is true today, that a positive attitude by top management to the adoption of safety measures can make a major contribution to the prevention of industrial accidents. There can be no doubt about that. It also became clear to me that good leadership must aim to involve the employees in helping to prevent accident hazards. Only if their co-operation can be enlisted can the whole work force be made to realise the importance of a positive attitude to the matter of safety and health. It is only then that one will make progress.
  I was therefore particularly delighted by the appointment of the Robens Committee by the present Secretary of State for Health and Social Security, who

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  deserves credit for that. I find myself having a somewhat different view of Lord Robens from that of the right hon. Gentleman. He seems to have been drifting away from the right hon. Gentleman's pleasure, and perhaps as he has done so, he has drifted towards mine. The right hon. Gentleman will understand that.
  I do not think that either of us would dispute that, whatever his position in our minds today, Lord Robens was a distinguished Minister of Labour and had considerable experience in this respect. Nor do I think that anyone could deny that a committee of which he was chairman would make a penetrating analysis of all the problems of industrial health and industrial accidents. Equally there would be no doubt that it would produce a down-to-earth and practical report, and it certainly did so. As a result and following the subsequent consultation, to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, with which my right hon. Friend the Member for Farnham (Mr. Macmillan) and my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Smith) were closely involved, a Bill in my name was produced in the last Parliament.
  I hoped then that I should have the chance of renewing an interest in this matter from the Government side of the House and helping to pilot the Bill. I felt—and it was a reasonable hope—that to be associated with that Bill and with the Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act would be a worthwhile double in helping to improve conditions at work. However, denied that particular double, I hope that at least I may be able to play a modest part in helping the passage of the present Bill. I welcome the fact that the right hon. Gentleman has reintroduced the Bill as quickly as he has, albeit with one major alteration in Clause 2, to which I shall refer later. There will therefore be some points upon which, in Committee, we shall wish to question the judgment of the Government.
  Equally, I suspect that there may be some details—the right hon. Gentleman referred to them himself—in which collectively the House may make some improvements to the Bill. In general, however, our view is that the sooner the Bill can be placed on the statute book and the more speedily the new commission can get to work effectively, the better
  1302
  it will be for everyone concerned. If in this way the House can help to ensure a greater sense of urgency in the prevention of industrial accidents, and so bring down the toll in lives and injuries, we shall have done good.
  However, in view of what he has said, I must make it quite clear to the right hon. Gentleman that this co-operation is strictly confined to this measure. I should be surprised if over the years he has always believed the absolute truth of everything he has read in the newspapers, and he might reflect on that in this instance, too.
  In the last year or so, I have had too much recent experience of lives lost and injuries caused by deliberate action, but the toll of industrial accidents reminds one that whether a life is lost by deliberate action or through apathy and lack of care, it is still a life lost, and lost unnecessarily. This thought is reinforced by the argument of the Robens Report and by Lord Robens himself at the time of publication. He stressed not only the human tragedy and suffering caused by industrial accidents and ill health, but the enormous waste of resources, and here I again agree with one aspect of what the right hon. Gentleman was saying.
  The House may also recall that the Robens Report laid considerable stress on the need to get away from the idea that problems of safety and health at work could be left to somebody else, to the law, to Government agencies and inspectorates alone. It said:
  "Our deliberations have left us in no doubt that the most important single reason for accidents at work is apathy."
  The report therefore placed the main responsibility where it must belong—on industry itself, on employers and employees. Of course the major responsibility must be with management, but we must surely agree with the Robens Report that this is a field where it is vital to secure more employee participation.
  Again, to quote the report:
  "There is no legitimate scope for bargaining on safety and health issues but much scope for constructive discussion, joint inspection and participation in working out solutions."
  This, surely, is a field where methods of joint consultation can be developed most effectively just because they can lead to practical and beneficial results which, in turn, can be seen by all those working

  1303
  in the organisation. If joint consultation proves its practical effect here, its value on a much wider scale is increasingly appreciated. That, I should have thought, would be a development widely welcomed and encouraged by all hon. Members.
  I do not, therefore, imagine that there will be any disagreement between us on the principle embodied in the Bill providing for a statutory duty upon employers to consult their employees on matters of health and safety. However, it is necessary to consider how much further we in this House should go in prescribing through legislation detailed terms and conditions under which joint consultation should take place. I believe that we should bear in mind three requirements above all.
  First, we must be practical, and we must not be swayed by theoretical or doctrinaire considerations. Second, we need to be flexible, taking account of the wide variety of circumstances in different parts of industry and commerce. We must, therefore, avoid any temptation to impose a detailed and uniform pattern of arrangements everywhere. Third, we need to maintain and encourage the many voluntary arrangements which already exist throughout industry. In these voluntary arrangements, the philosophy set out in the Robens Report has already assumed a concrete form, and it would seem a great pity—not to mention a great mistake—if at this stage we were to put such achievements at risk through the legislation which we passed.
  Against that background I want to consider the only major change which the Secretary of State has introduced in the Bill—that in Clause 2. Clause 2(6) provides that,
  "it shall be the duty of every employer…to establish…a safety committee"
  upon the request of the representatives of the employees. That is fair enough in principle, but there is a danger that, by seeking to impose, as this provision does, a specific way of approaching the safety problem, we may be both impractical and rigid at the same time, and we may put at risk voluntary arrangements which do not conform to a joint safety committee pattern—the type of voluntary
  1304
  arrangements to which my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford (Mr. Churchill) referred. We shall undoubtedly wish to pursue this aspect in Committee.
  But that is not the only questionable aspect of the change which the Secretary of State has introduced into the Bill. Clause 2(4) provides that, where the Secretary of State makes regulations, the employees' representatives, for the purpose of the Bill, shall be appointed by "recognised trade unions". This insistence on a single, uniform selection of employee representation is, surely, doctrinaire in character. We need to know a great deal more than we do about how and when these regulations are to be made.
  I was interested to hear the right hon. Gentleman say that he would like the regulations always to be debated in the House, but I do not think that there is any detailed provision for that in the Bill. Of course, I shall be interested to find whether his right hon. Friends, the Leader of the House and the Chief Whip, will necessarily share his view in the long run on that proposal. We shall remember what he has said when we come to these problems.
  If this proposal is insisted on, it could do great damage to many existing voluntary arrangements. I do not think that there can be any doubt of that. It lacks flexibility, because it appears from the Bill that this rigid method of selection effectively relieves an employer of any duty to consult representatives of his employees where they are not covered by the regulations made by the Secretary of State. I am not clear whether that is right. If this interpretation is right, however, it is surely rather extraordinary, because many employees are not members of trade unions. There are about 5 million people who work in wholly non-unionised plants. What about their position? I think we are entitled to be told about that.
  I accept what the right hon. Gentleman says about the mining industry and the National Union of Mineworkers, that wherever appropriate the recognised trade union should be involved. I believe that would be widely accepted. What about those cases where it is not appropriate? What about those cases in which the right hon. Gentleman is not able to

  1305
  make the regulations to which he refers? Perhaps the Under-Secretary, in winding up, will say whether I am right in believing that the effect of this would be that if the right hon. Gentleman did not make regulations in some cases the employers would be relieved of their statutory duty to consult their employees.
  I think we want to make absolutely certain that that is so. I am sure it would be a mistake, and I am sure that is something that the right hon. Gentleman would not willingly wish to do. He has to take account, however, of people who are not members of trade unions and who may now be taking part in voluntary safety arrangements, and he has also to take account of those firms which are non-unionised.
  However desirable the right hon. Gentleman and others may feel that it should be otherwise, those are the facts of life within our industry, and it makes it extremely important, in this Bill, not to impose too rigid or too inflexible a method which then turns out not to be practical.
  It is surely a negation of philosophy of the Robens Report, and of the principles in other parts of the Bill, to insist upon one particular method of employee representations which will deny millions of employees the opportunity to participate directly or indirectly with their employers in health and safety matters. That cannot be the purpose of this Bill, and as long as the present position obtains I think we have to take account of it. I am sure hon. Gentlemen will see the force of that argument.
  The right hon. Gentleman has referred to the problem of the inspectorates, particularly the smaller inspectorates and the mining inspectorates. He is right to bring them together. I agree with him that there will be a need for them to work together but still to have the opportunity which he described of taking individual action. I take that into account as well.
  I am convinced that it is right to set up a unified commission. I am doubtful about commissions being hived off from Departments that have Ministers responsible to the House and so I have some sympathy with his point of view. In this case, however, it is undoubtedly right to proceed as the Bill does. I fully accept that.
  1306
  I hope, too, that the smaller inspectorates which have loyalties in particular industries, and which in some cases have loyalties to other Departments in Whitehall, will find it possible to sink these individual loyalties and work together in future. I am sure that would be best for everyone concerned.
  I wish to make one other point about the Factory Inspectorate. There is no doubt that what we are doing in this Bill can be successful only if it is backed up by an increase in the work of the inspectorate. There has been no doubt on both sides of the House of a desire to see the inspectorate increased to its full capacities and full number. I appreciate the problems that there have been over recruitment.
  The Opposition will support any measures that the right hon. Gentleman takes to increase the strength and effectiveness of the inspectorate.
  We welcome the Bill, which basically is the same except for the one provision which I have discussed, as that introduced by the previous administration. We question the wisdom of that change made and we would wish to question it further in Committee and we may well seek to change it.
  Mr. David Weitzman: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that under Clause 2(4) it is only in prescribed cases that one gets appointment by recognised trade unions? There is nothing interferring with safety committees on a voluntary basis.
  Mr. Whitelaw: This is something we shall have to consider further in Committee, because I should like the hon. and learned Gentleman—he is learned in these matters and may well be right—to read other parts of the same clause, and to make certain that the problem to which I have referred does not arise. If he is right, and if voluntary arrangements continue and provision can happily be made for those plants which are not unionised to enlist the help of people who are not members of unions in appropriate cases, we shall have no quarrel with the provision. If that is the case and the hon. and learned Gentleman is right, I am not quite sure why the right hon. Gentleman placed so much stress on this aspect of the Bill. It may be as innocent as the hon. and learned

  1307
  Gentleman suggests that it is, but we shall wish to pursue that matter further in Committee.
  But in principle we hope to see the Bill on the statute book at an early date. We hope that the new commission will be able to tackle urgently the problems of industrial health hazards which cause much unnecessary human suffering and which are a waste of resources that is unsound in our industrial life.
  5.36 p.m.
  Mr. Christopher Mayhew: It is obvious that the Bill has many admirable features which will receive warm support from all parts of the House, but, in my view, it has one grave defect as described in the motion standing on the Order Paper in the names of my two hon. Friends and myself, and I should like to address myself to that.
  I was extremely surprised to hear the Secretary of State declare that the Bill is intended to cover mental illness in industry. I am surprised because this is not the view of the TUC. After speaking to the TUC's medical officer, I understand that the TUC's view is that the Bill does not cover mental illness. It is, indeed, surprising—whether it is right that the Bill should include it or not—that the interpretation of the Secretary of State should be one thing and the interpretation of the TUC should be another. It is plain that this needs to be cleared up. I do not think it is the view of the psychiatric profession that the Bill includes mental illness. It is certainly not the view of the National Association for Mental Health.
  I do not see how the average reader of the Bill could suppose that this was meant to include not only accidents, diseases, and physical illness but mental sickness. For example, I challenge anyone to read Clause 2, where the general duties of the commission are spelled out,—especially subsection (2)(a), (b), (c), (d) and (e)—and come to the conclusion that the general duties include supervising and helping to combat mental sickness as well as physical sickness, accidents and disease.
  My right hon. Friend explained that individual diseases are not spelled out in the Bill. He mentioned pneumoco-
  1308
  niosis. Of course, that is right, and individual mental illnesses—schizophrenia or alcoholism, or whatever it may be—equally are not spelled out. But I cannot believe that anyone reading the Bill can doubt that it does not cover, as it stands, or cannot be understood to cover, these points.
  Mr. Weitzman: Surely a person reading Clause 2(1) would understand that mental health is included in the word "health". There is power for the Secretary of State to make regulations, and he must make regulations relating to mental health as well as physical health. It is clearly included in the Bill.
  Mr. Mayhew: It is not. I am delighted if that is the intention. There is no problem if that is the intention of the Bill. Perhaps the Secretary of State will elucidate.
  Mr. Foot: I appreciate my hon. Friend's concern, and I know how dedicated is his interest in this subject, but I assure him that what I said earlier is my understanding of the case, that it is fully our intention that that should be the case, and that we understand that mental distress or affliction arising from work will be as much covered as other items in the Bill. That is our intention, and I hope that my hon. Friend will be satisfied by this statement.
  Mr. Mayhew: I was about to say that not only was I surprised by what my right hon. Friend said but that I was very pleased. It gives us the opportunity to clear up what is plainly a misunderstanding, because this is not how a large number of people with responsibilities in this sphere understand the Bill. If we grant this, the Bill will require some recasting if it is effectively to combat this problem.
  Following my hon. Friend's suggestion, I do not see why it should not be specifically stated in the Bill what is understood by the word "health". The term "occupational health" is clearly defined by the World Health Organisation and the International Labour Office. The definition, which I will read, seems to be helpful and clarifies the position. It says:
  "Occupational health should aim at the promotion and maintenance of physical, mental and social well-being of workers"

  1309
  and goes on:
  The placing and maintenance of the worker in an occupational environment adapted to his physiological and psychological equipment"
  and it summarises:
  "The adaptation of work to man and of each man to his job"
  I see no harm in spelling this out in the Bill. It seems that the Secretary of State may be willing to do this, in order to clarify the intention behind the Bill.
  The Bill does not seem to be in any way related to the problem, even if the intention is there. For example, in replying courteously to me, the Secretary of State mentioned the Employment Medical Advisory Service. This, he said, in some way related the Bill to the problem of mental and emotional illness at work. Unfortunately, the Employment Medical Advisory Service is almost universally regarded as being orientated away from psychiatry and away from the problems of mental illness.
  The concept of the Government appointing 100 doctors and sending them around the country has no relevance to the problems of individual health in factories and other places of work to people suffering from strain. I am told that there are no psychologists in the service. Possibly among the 100 doctors there are one or two trained in psychiatry.
  I see in Clause 56(2) that the Employment Medical Advisory Service seems to shut the door on the psychologist and most psychotherapists. It reads:
  "A person shall not be qualified to be appointed, or to be, an employment medical adviser unless he is a fully registered medical practitioner."
  The Bill badly needs redrafting if it is to carry out the obvious intention of the Secretary of State.
  What, then, seems to be needed? First, perhaps, a clear definition so that there can be no misunderstanding. There is no dispute in the House about the importance of the subject. My right hon. Friend said that it was the intention that the Bill should cover it. He did not dispute my figure that, whereas 23 million days' work are lost in industry through accidents, and, as he said, 23 million days because of industrial dispute, 38·5 million days ate lost in industry through mental illness. That figure excludes a whole number of illnesses increasingly recog-
  1310
  nised as symptoms of distress—skin complaints, dyspepsia, and so on. Therefore, no one disputes the size or the importance of the problem.
  If the Bill covers this problem, should not my right hon. Friend's speech at least have paid some regard to it? I do not recall any reference to the problem in his otherwise admirable speech. If he was speaking to the Bill, the conclusion is that the Bill does not cover this great problem.
  Obviously I cannot go into the question of how stress and mental sickness are caused. I am no expert. I base my knowledge on a distinguished working party which was set up by the National Association for Mental Health to give evidence to the Robens Committee. I do not wish to intervene in the political assessment of Lord Robens in which the Front Benches have been engaged, to our entertainment, this afternoon, but the Robens Committee had the same defect as the Bill has; not only was no reference made to the evidence of the National Association for Mental Health in the Robens Report, but the ultimate indignity was inflicted upon the working party, namely, its report was not published. Surely this shows, as does the Bill, that we need a new and broader approach to the problem of ill health in industry.
  Mr. Foot: In Clause 53 on page 50 my hon. Friend will find that the definition of "personal injury" includes
  "any disease and any impairment of a person's physical or mental condition".
  I repeat that it is our intention that mental condition shall be taken into the Bill. I should further emphasise that one reason for my not referring to some of these specific matters in my introductory speech, although many of them will be mentioned by my hon. Friend when he replies or in Committee, is that this is an enabling Bill in many respects. We have framed it so that these matters shall be covered. It is called the Health and Safety at Work etc. Bill because we believe that all forms of health must be taken into this kind of protection.
  We believe that the system that we have proposed for dealing with this matter is more comprehensive than anything that has been attempted before. I am not arguing with my hon. Friend; I

  1311
  am merely pointing out that the Bill covers all the matters with which he has dealt, with the exception of the occupational health service. That is a quite separate matter, which involves the whole question of the way we deal with the National Health Service. Of course, we cannot deal with that in this Bill. Indeed, we have no intention of pulling it to pieces in the Bill. If my hon. Friend will study the Bill he will see that it is much more comprehensive in its intention than he suggests.
  Mr. Mayhew: I do not pretend to be an expert on industrial health and safety. I agree that I have a rather specialised approach to the Bill. Nevertheless, I have studied it. I am delighted that my right hon. Friend has found the word "mental". I still cannot find it, but I accept that it is hidden away somewhere in Clause 53. That is all to the good.
  A Bill that was really addressed to the problems with which we are concerned, which are of enormous importance, would surely set them out. The trouble is that this subject is not quantifiable. One can quantify physical illness, accidents and disease. However, because something is not quantifiable does not mean that it is not terribly important and does not cause great distress.
  Accepting that the intention is that these matters shall be covered, surely the Bill should include a requirement, for example, that industry should look into them. Why not follow the Swedish practice, which places a regular requirement on all factories with 500 or more employees to have at least one nurse trained in mental health problems? The larger the factory, the bigger the staff required by statute to be provided—for example, a social worker and a psychologist. That kind of approach would be relevant to this grave problem, but there is nothing in the Bill about it. The Employment Medical Advisory Service is quite irrelevant to the problem.
  You, Mr. Deputy Speaker, particularly asked me to be brief. I shall keep my promise to you. There will no doubt be other opportunities of returning to this matter.
  I beg my right hon. Friend to reflect that there is genunie misunderstanding about this matter. The Bill does not
  1312
  appear to cover certain points. There is no clear definition about and the structure laid down is not relevant to the problem with which we are concerned.
  I had hoped for a new, radical Bill from this new, radical Government. The Bill is unimaginative, too narrow, and old-fashioned. It is what we might expect of a Bill drafted by a Conservative Government. Therefore, I ask my right hon. Friend to redraft or amend it in Committee to cover the important matter that I have raised.
  5.50 p.m.
  Mr. Ernle Money: I believe that this House has a bad reputation regarding industrial safety. It is unfortunate that throughout the history of the last Parliament we had only one half day, on an extremely impressive private Member's motion brought by the hon. Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Kinnock), and three other opportunities, all in private Members' time, to discuss these vitally important factors which go to the root of many of our problems.
  In February 1971 the hon. Member for Renfrewshire, West (Mr. Buchan) introduced his Employed Persons (Safety) Bill and in 1972, exactly a year later, the hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) introduced his Bill. Then, on 15th May, under the Ten Minutes Rule procedure, the hon. Member for Dearne Valley (Mr. Wainwright) was given permission to bring in his Bill. Apart from that, this House has very little to congratulate itself on in terms of having had adequate discussion of this vital subject. Indeed, it has had almost more attention in the other place than in this House, where most hon. Members are in direct contact with constituents and know how grave is the concern and anguish that matters of health and safety produce for them.
  Therefore, I welcome the speed with which the Government have brought forward this Bill. I also welcome two facets of the Bill which are inherent in it and are important from the point of view of national feeling about this subject.
  First, we are getting away from the attitude of fatalism about accidents at work which has dogged so much of our national life and become almost imbued in many people regarding their work. It

  1313
  is a curious attitude that one meets at many stages.
  Accidents occur in all professions, although, per se, I should not describe the Bar as being a naturally dangerous profession, except perhaps from irritated litigants. However, there was one extraordinary occasion when I found it dangerous. I was appearing in a case involving industrial safety in the Midlands at what was then a court of quarter sessions. During the legal discussion half the roof fell in and a large piece of concrete landed near my head. At that stage I complained bitterly to the clerk of the peace, whose answer was: "Good. Perhaps at long last the county council will do something about it." That seems typical of the attitude of many people regarding accidents.
  Secondly, I hope that one special message will go out about the Bill. I hope that workpeople generally will see the Bill as an indication that there really is national concern—which is shared by Parliament and shown in the speed with which this measure has now come before the House—about safety and health at work. Surely the Bill will demonstrate the high regard that we have for our work forces.
  There is one issue which I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to persuade some of his colleagues about, namely, the important recommendation in the Robens Report that in the framing of any future company legislation it should be a mandatory duty on companies of a certain size to publish accident figures in their annual reports. It seems right that such statistics should be known. They will show whether companies are trustworthy and safe employers, and demonstrate where they stand on industrial safety.
  One of the great difficulties has been that until a fatal or serious accident takes place people have regarded safety as a matter that could be put off. It is always the subject that comes at the end of discussions at almost every stage. I hope, therefore, that that particular recommendation will be taken up by the Secretary of State and his colleagues if they remain in office long enough.
  There are a number of matters relating to the powers of the commissioners and executive which need closer attention. I
  1314
  was sorry that when the Secretary of State spoke about the basis of safety, he did not mention one aspect—although it may have been inherent in what he said—namely, the need for education. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman, when dealing with the deep concern felt by individual unions and the TUC, will be able to assure the House that when the commissioners and executive are set up other powers will be provided through them to establish a national safety training centre, together with regional centres. This was recommended by the TUC, but was not accepted as part of the terms of the Robens' recommendations. It is an intensely important part of general industrial training.
  I hope also that when a national organisation bringing together powers of this kind comes into being, much more force can be given to tackling education on the problems of industrial safety, particularly problems of noise and stress, which can be taught to children from an early age. This is particularly applicable because children now have an extra year at school and in most cases will thereafter be going into industrial life. When young people, probably at an age when they are in more danger than are people of older years, first go into industry they should be fully prepared about the risks and about what they can do and what they ought to do to avoid such risks.
  None of the good intentions of the Bill, or of any enabling Bill of this kind, can meet the problems of safety until we come to grips with what is probably the biggest single problem, at least so far as legislation is concerned—the long drawn out agony of civil proceedings arising from accidents. I hope that in the concluding speech we can be told the date when we can look forward to publication of the report of the Pearson Commission. If publication of this report is put off further there will continue, despite the best will in the world, to be two standards—one standard to encourage people and to try to bring together the various problems in this connection and a different, more depressive one, over compensation.
  Many crucial safety problems such as those directly involving the injured person, have yet to be met. They must be met by legislation at an early date. I hope

  1315
  that this Bill can be seen as part of a great breakthrough in this subject. If this is so I shall welcome what the Secretary of State is trying to do, although I do not entirely accept his rather gloomy view of the zigzag. It is sometimes suggested that the House acts slowly, but when the House determines to achieve something it is usually achieved. In the past few years we have seen a determination to bring justice and fairness to the disabled. This is being done, although slowly. Perhaps now there will be an equal determination to check what in many cases is the cause of disability.
  6.0 p.m.
  Mr. Roger Stott: I am grateful for having caught your eye so early in the debate, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Judging from the number of hon. Members in the Chamber it seems that the debate is extremely important. I shall endeavour to keep my comments as brief as possible.
  I agree with what the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Money) said about it being time the House produced meaningful legislation on health and safety. At present, there is a ludicrous situation in which, for example, people in one half of a factory are covered by certain legislation while people in the other half are not. This situation must be regularised. I am pleased that the 5 million people who are at present outside the scope of legislation covering these matters will be brought into the scope of the Bill.
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made a significant point in drawing attention to the fact that people generally tend to emphasise the number of days lost through industrial disputes, official or unofficial strikes. The media, the House, and many other people over-emphasise this. If we were to compare the number of days lost through industrial disputes with the number of days lost through injury and sickness we would find that in most cases the latter category exceeded the former. It is with this in mind that I particularly welcome the Bill.
  I welcome the unification of the Inspectorate under the Health and Safety Commission. One reason I say this is that I represent a mining constituency. I appreciate that some of my colleagues, particularly those, concerned with mining, have reservations about some of the pro-
  1316
  visions of the Bill. I understand and share their worries, but if the mines and quarries inspectorate were outside the scope of the Health and Safety Commission, the Commission would be significantly weakened. I understand that there is to be an increase of 1,400 in manpower and I hope to be told during the concluding speech what percentage of that figure will be in the new inspectorate.
  I also welcome the statutory obligations to be placed on employers to consult recognised trade unions. Before becoming a Member of the House, not long ago, I worked for most of my adult life with the Post Office as a telephone engineer. The Post Office has an exceedingly good safety record. There are safety committes which function properly and which are extremely useful and valuable both to trade unions and management.
  Having read the Bill, and its predecessors in legislation, several times I am puzzled why agriculture is to remain a separate entity and is not to come within the ambit of the Health and Safety Commission. What are the reasons for this? Is it because my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food is more persuasive in the Cabinet and looks after his Department better than other Ministers look after theirs, or is there some in-fighting in Whitehall among civil servants to retain their own staff identity? Or is it my right hon. Friend's legendary cavalier hand at work once again? Perhaps the Minister could tell us why agriculture, which is a dangerous industry, is to be left out.
  Under Clause 32(3)(a), anyone in breach of the law will be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £400. What a derisory fine for people who cannot acquire the knowledge or the means to obey the law. Does this figure reflect the importance that Government attach to health and safety? If employers are to be obliged to provide a safe working environment the inefficiency or the inadequacy of their supervision should constitute no excuse for breaking the law. It is precisely the failure to plan and suprevise effectively for which negligent employers should be prosecuted and punished. A fine of £400 is no deterrent.
  Good employers who carry out their duties towards their employees irrespective of the law are entitled to expect that the negligent, apathetic and sometimes

  1317
  downright criminal employers should be made to comply with exacting standards and that failure to do so should meet a suitable punishment. I would not be opposed to the sequestration of the funds of companies which break the law. Perhaps one day we may see company profits and assets in excess of £100,000 taken in this way.
  Since I became a Member I have been worried by the way that this House sets up extra-mural bodies like the Pay Board and the Industrial Relations Court that are not responsible to Parliament. I am glad that my right hon. Friend pointed out that this commission will be responsible to this House so that we can do our duty by our constituents.
  6.8 p.m.
  Mr. Cyril Smith: I have often debated matters with the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Stott), although not in this Chamber, and I am much more in sympathy with him now than I have been on many occasions in my local council chamber.
  The occupants of the Liberal bench welcome this Bill—[An HON. MEMBER: "What, both of you?"] Even though only two of us are here, we did gain 6 million votes in the General Election. In the midst of their mirth, Labour Members might reflect that they will need the Liberals, even on this Bill, to push particular clauses through Committee, so perhaps they should be a little more attentive to some of our views. We shall wish to make minor amendments and on one major amendment we may support the official Opposition.
  However, I commend the Government on the speed with which they have introduced the Bill—contrasting favourably with the time the last Government took to introduce it after publication of the Robens Report.
  The Secretary of State reminded the House of the terrifying statistics of industrial sickness and accidents, beside which the number of days lost through strikes pales into insignificance. But figures cannot adequately portray human tragedy, and it is the tragedy as well as the figures that makes it urgent to bring together the chaos of law on this subject and to create a modern system for dealing with industrial safety. That is
  1318
  why the occupants of the Liberal bench, whose numbers are fast growing—not only tonight but in successive elections and by-elections—welcome the Bill.
  I hope that the Government will ultimately amend the law relating to civil actions over industrial accidents, to bring in a no-fault system. Some sections of the trade union movement are apprehensive about parts of the Bill and a no-fault system would remove that apprehension.
  My party welcomes the establishment of the general statutory duties of employers in Clause 2 and is particularly pleased at the inclusion in subsection (2)(b) of the transport of substances and materials. When this matter was previously debated, there was some concern about whether transport workers would be included, as Robens did not specifically deal with them. Perhaps the Minister will make it clear that this provision includes transport workers operating outside their depots, who were not covered by Robens.
  I hope that industrial health and safety will be given a high priority in industry. The widespread apathy that Robens found among management and workers was extremely depressing.
  The House will not be surprised that the Liberal Party welcomes the provision for a far higher degree of consultation and participation for safety representatives of workers under the Bill. An industrial democracy Bill is promised, which I hope will make works councils a legal requirement in industry. We hope, too, that those councils will represent all employees. I say that because I hope that the safety representatives envisaged in this Bill will eventually be appointed by the works councils and not, as at present proposed, by unionists or union organisations alone.
  When I referred earlier to our willingness to join the official Opposition in an amendment, it was this clause that I had in mind. We are not happy about Clause 2(4). As the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Churchill) and the former Secretary of State have said, millions of workers are not members of unions. Much as we may believe that they should be, we have to deal with the situation as it is and not as we would wish it to be. Certainly

  1319
  we do not consider that it is the prerogative of the trade union movement alone to select or to nominate safety committees or safety representatives, as if this were some grace and favour matter within the gift of the unions.
  Mr. J. W. Rooker: Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that people who have accidents and are not members of a trade union rarely stand a snowball's chance in hell of gaining compensation? They have no one to whom they can turn. That is the reason why this provision has been put into the Bill. The trade unions are independent of management. There is an independent source of information to which representatives can go. That would not apply to the hon. Gentleman's proposition.
  Mr. Smith: I find myself unable to follow the logic of the hon. Gentleman. First, it is quite possible for a person who is not a member of a trade union to sue an employer through the courts, and with legal aid, for example. I am not saying that this is a desirable way, and certainly I accept entirely that a man has much more likelihood of succeeding in a claim against an employer if he is a member of a trade union. Indeed, a close member of my family has benefited in that way. But because it is more advantageous that a person should belong to a trade union—with that I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman—I cannot see why that necessarily means that only trade unions are capable of representing workers in this matter. Scores of workers are not members of a trade union, and to suggest giving the trade unions carte blanche as being the only people capable of representing them is begging the question.
  Mr. Emlyn Hooson: The practice in the courts over many years has been that everyone who sustains an industrial accident in which he is entitled to compensation is entitled to legal aid. Although the unions are doing very good work, the majority of cases these days are brought on the legal aid fund.
  Mr. Smith: I am grateful to my hon. and learned Friend for sustaining my point. In any case, there is also a slight psychological point in this matter.
  1320
  I shall not press that unduly. To make these appointments the prerogative of the trade union movement could give the impression that items of safety and health are in some way "negotiable", whereas in our view they are not matters over which one should haggle. They are fact, and not things which are "negotiable".
  There is also the problem of what management should do. I appeal to Labour hon. Members to understand that management has some responsibilities as well and, indeed, some concern in these matters. We need to know what management should do if a safety committee is not prepared to agree to particular measures which, in the management's view, are vital to the protection of the health and safety of employees. For example, one can provide safety clothing in industry but some people will not wear it. It could be that a safety committee vetoes the wearing of it. I can give a concrete example from my constituency of a company which has a high rate of industrial disease. I had better be careful how I phrase this matter. I refer to asbestosis. The company made a survey and found that the smoking of cigarettes increased the risk of asbestosis. Therefore, the management withdrew from the factory all cigarette vending machines. The reaction from the safety committee and the workers' committee to that situation was such that the company had to reinstate the machines within three days.
  What is the situation of the Bill where that sort of case arises, particularly where a company could be sued because it is negligent in some way and when the reasons why it is not carrying out particular operations on industrial safety are not its own fault but the fault of a safety committee which has vetoed or refused to implement suggestions that the company has made? These are points which need to be looked into in greater detail in Committee.
  We welcome the introduction of improvement notices and prohibition notices. We very much hope that they will diminish the necessity to use the courts. We welcome, too, the formation of the Health and Safety Commission and Executive. It is a good thing to see nearly all inspectorates combined under one roof, I say "nearly" all because

  1321
  there are one or two notable exceptions in the Bill. The Minister stressed to the House earlier that he had gone further than the Robens Report in certain matters. Therefore, one wonders why, in a matter which I am about to mention, he did not go further than the Robens Report. I refer to the National Radiological Protection Board, which is not included in the Bill. I hope that the Minister who is to wind up the debate may find it possible to explain that. There are very many radiation codes and factory regulations and there is the Radioactive Substances Act. I would have thought that such an industry would be ideal for co-ordination. Similarly, one can mention the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority, with regard to the Nuclear Installations Act. That, too, might be considered at a later stage.
  Another problem is that of factory noise. The Industrial Health Advisory Committee has produced a code of practice on noise. Many people believe that the implementation of that code would relieve the problem of deafness caused by industrial noise. The Liberals very much hope that that code will be implemented as soon as possible.
  Clauses 55 to 60 deals specifically with the Employment Medical Advisory Service. As that service "can adequately advise" on these matters, we presume that research can be undertaken by it. In this matter I support the Minister. One would have thought that research into mental health or mental fatigue in industry could be covered under those clauses. Sixty per cent. of working days lost in Britain for reasons of health or safety are due to mental illness or mental fatigue rather than to industrial accidents. We very much hope that research into that problem will become a reality quickly. Indeed, a Minister in the present Government, when director of the MIND campaign, had a good deal to say about this matter.
  Those are the main views of the Liberal Party about the Bill. I welcome the Bill and particularly its intention. We are discussing the future life prospects of many people, and we look forward to the maximum co-operation in these matters between employers and employees. It is in the best interests of both that such cooperation should exist, and any help that
  1322
  the House can give to that end should readily and speedily be given.
  6.23 p.m.
  Mr. Paul B. Rose: The debate, in a number of ways—and not least in the attendance—is a testimony to the very different approaches of the two sides of the House to industry and the priorities to which they attach importance in industry.
  The chain of events which triggered off this debate was started by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services. Indeed, many of my hon. Friends pressed very strenuously, when we last debated the subject, that the Robens Report should be given teeth. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment, whose appointment is, perhaps, the most imaginative in the Government, talked today about the Robens Report having been given teeth in the new Bill. It is an interesting fact that the value of a tooth in the courts today is about £50. That is the situation which we face.
  I am aware that, following the Robens Report, and just before the General Election, a Bill was in the pipeline. That Bill was similar to this one, although less acceptable because it did not have the teeth required. Every judge always gives credit to a person who pleads guilty, and I accept the mitigation that there was a Bill in the pipeline, but the fact is that it was not until we had a Private Member's motion moved on 21st May last year by my hon. Friend the Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Kinnock), who is now, very popularly, a PPS in the Department, that we actually dragged from the then Government a statement of their intentions towards legislation on safety and health in industry.
  Now, 10 months and one election further on, we are seeing the first positive action on industrial law since the Redundancy Payments Act of the last Labour Government. We are now debating a matter which was neglected because the last Government were so obsessed by the priority of providing a legal straitjacket for industrial relations and the trade unions. In their obsession they forgot about the daily toll of lives, limbs and health which is exacted by the process of earning a livelihood. It is curious that that Act turned out to be an illusion, and

  1323
  the remarkable result was that in February this year the then Prime Minister, hanging off balance, was secured by his own straitjacket and so tightly it needed all the skill of Houdini to escape from it. He tried but failed.
  The Bill contains one novel and welcome provision in that it empowers an inspector to issue a prohibition notice where he feels that an activity occasions risk of personal injury. It is a pity that could not have been served upon the right hon. Member for Sidcup (Mr. Heath) over the Industrial Relations Act. As one of my hon. Friends said, sequestration may be painful but the loss of an election may leave more permanent scars.
  Nevertheless, they are as nothing compared with the hideous injuries that can be caused by dangerous machinery, by the careless arrangement of articles on floors and in passageways, by defective tools that are provided, by the failure to instruct employees, by inadequate supervision and by the lack of elementary precautions in certain processes.
  My experience in industry and in the courts—and I have a little of one and a lot of the other—leads me to ask whether there will be enough inspectors, because that has been one of the great problems in the past. Will there be adequate inspection, and what will be the criteria in relation to it? The criterion that is often accepted, indeed the one that is very frequently accepted by judges in the courts, is a very unimaginative one. That criterion is what is the current standard in industry rather than how, by ingenuity, the risk of injury can be minimised, and whether that ingenuity has been used. It is that imaginative approach that we should like to see by the inspectors and by the courts and generally accepted in industrial law.
  We want to know whether this Bill will permit an inspector or the commission to close many of the loopholes which have appeared in legislation. Take one example in the abrasive wheels regulations in a recent case in Sheffield. As a result of the drafting of that legislation and the interpretation given to it by a judge, employers are now permitted to provide the most inadequate form of guard on a grinding wheel so long as that grinding wheel is from time to time used for cast-
  1324
  ings appropriate to it—that is to say, on the one odd occasion, perhaps once in every three or four weeks. I fear that the Bill does not close that sort of loophole. What is particularly magical in the new system of inspectors that is going to overcome the manifest deficiency in the opportunities and in the system of inspection? Not, I hasten to add, in the inspectors themselves. Many of them are the first to acknowledge the need for far more stringent legislation and its forceful use by the courts.
  Will my hon. Friend explain how Clause 3 modifies the Employers' Liability Act and the existing common law? I served for a time on the Opposition Front Bench dealing with these matters and I have absolute faith in all my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Department of Employment, knowing their desire to see a rapid improvement in the law on industrial safety. These remarks apply not least to my hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster (Mr. Walker). However, the courts have not been notable for handing out draconian punishments to companies or employers who were in breach of statutory duties.
  If the criterion used by the courts for dealing with dangerous and drunken or even careless drivers were applied in industrial safety, society would be getting it priorities right. The reckless and negligent employer should be in precisely the same category as the reckless and negligent driver. There is no compulsion upon an employer to insure in respect of third-party claims for injury. There is such compulsion on drivers. There is no equivalent, in respect of dangerous machinery, to the offence of causing death by dangerous driving. Clause 32 goes some way towards creating the right climate. The Bill safeguards existing rights in respect of civil claims under Clause 47.
  I welcome Clause 24 which contains a power which should be exercised without compunction where broken ladders or worn or slippery duckboards are left lying around or where tools are left on factory floors, even though they are not intended to be used. Often they are used by employees.
  I am pleased to note that Clause 16 permits the use of voluntary codes of practice similar to the Highway Code and that it now places the onus firmly

  1325
  on the defendant—the employer—to show observance of its conditions. What remains to be seen here and what my hon. Friend must keep a sharp eye on is whether local authorities will act enthusiastically and with vigour in pursuance of the powers now vested in them by Clause 17. It is on that and that alone that the success of the Bill will rest. If my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Department do not pursue the problem vigorously enough I can assure them that my hon. Friends in the trade union movement and my hon. and learned Friends will be only too willing to prod from the back benches. We want to know what sanctions there will be if local authorities drag their feet over enforcement and prosecutions under the new requirements as well as the existing legislation.
  I want to be assured that the Bill is an addition to and not a substitution of the much-needed improvement in safety legislation in factories and many other premises. I want to be sure that the Government envisage dealing with the whole sordid problem to which the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Money) referred, the problem of civil litigation in personal injury claims and the delay involved with its psychological consequences, and the very concept of negligence in law.
  There are many of us who are interested, as I know the Post Office Engineering Union is, in the idea of the grant-levy system. These are matters to which my right hon. Friend will, no doubt, refer. I hope that in Committee he will look at ways of plugging the gaps which have appeared in the Factories Acts and in the various regulations under them. Will he look at the judicial interpretation and the systems of employment which frequently frustrate the intentions of the Act? The Bill is most welcome so far as it goes but it does not go altogether to the heart of the problem. It could do the very opposite. It could be a diversion or a palliative, when far more stringent measures are required and other action has to follow.
  It is right that there should be an integrated system of law dealing with health and welfare. For that reason I welcome the Bill. No one who has waded through textbooks such as Redgrave, Munkman and the rest could say any-
  1326
  thing else. To do so might be profitable to the practitioner, but it is hardly a practical way of dealing with industrial law and safety. What we want to see is an overall code in which the Bill will be at the heart. The Bill should be at the core of the consolidation and improvement of existing legislation. That approach will be bold and imaginative. Understandably it will not be possible to introduce such sweeping legislation until the Government have obtained a greater —an overall—majority in the House.
  I welcome the fact that in Clause 2 the Bill has taken on board the concept of safety committees with trade union representation. I want to see voluntary or compulsory safety committees in every workplace in the United Kingdom. I do not see a substitute for such committees. The diagnosis of apathy is one diagnosis at least which I share as a hardliner with those who support the self-regulation concept of Robens. I make no apology for being a hardliner and demanding a draconian and comprehensive approach to recalcitrant employers.
  I welcome the unification of the inspectorate and the new means of enforcement. I think that I pointed out in the last debate on this subject that if we are drastically to reduce the 700,000 injuries each year, and the many absenteeisms from work which are caused mainly as a result of stress, we shall have to spend a great deal more on research than the 05 per cent. of research funds spent by industry on industrial safety research. We shall have to upgrade the pay and status of safety officers, and regard safety as an important object in industry. We shall have to regard safety as being just as important as profit. We must remove industry's assumption that making a profit inevitably involves risk. We must end the system whereby we have derisory penalties for breaches of the law applying to safety.
  Self-regulation is a euphemism which means no regulation at all. That is the view of Mr. W. H. Thompson, a solicitor whose experience in these matters is unrivalled. Unless the Bill generates a sense of urgency and a vast increase in the size of the inspectorate we shall go on as before and the inspectors will continue to use much of their time trying to clear up various matters rather than being able to take employers to court.

  1327
  The task will be far easier for the Government if we accept what Peter Jacques of the TUC Social Insurance Committee has said, namely:
  "Just because bad law is ineffective that does not mean that there is no place for good law."
  Our law reflects the priorities of the community. It sets a standard which employers must meet. On 21st May 1973 some of my hon. Friends and I referred to the lack of evidence to show that management in general had taken seriously its responsibility for its employees health, safety and welfare. We said that self-regulation had been tried and that it had not worked. We said that we needed good law which would be soundly and efficiently administered. If it is efficiently administered and adequately financed and staffed, the Bill will provide good law and it should be warmly welcomed by my right hon. and hon. Friends.
  In so far as it avoids the crucial issues of the painstaking process of civil litigation, and in so far as it avoids the problem of the quantum of damages and the tendency to force people to settle for an amount less than that which they should have received, it does not get to the heart of the problem. The way in which it fails to deal with criminal proceedings under other Acts is a matter which can be dealt with later. I hope that the Minister will keep an eagle eye on the commission and the executive. I hope that they will be subject to parliamentary scrutiny.
  I welcome the Bill and the spirit in which it has been introduced by my right hon. Friend. I recall the words which were used by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services when she set up the Robens Committee. She spoke of our determination to bring the standards of safety and health of people at work up to the high levels which we have the right to demand in a civilised society. As one step, and only one step, in that direction I welcome the Bill.
  6.41 p.m.
  Mr. Norman Miscampbell: The human problem with which we are dealing is emphasised by the number of people who are killed in our factories each year, which in round figures is about a thousand. Nearly half
  1328
  a million people are injured. We have already heard of the loss of 23 million working days. Those figures emphasise the crucial rôle which the inspectorate plays. Anyone who has had any dealings with these matters will know that we are not recruiting sufficient inspectors. The shortage is made the worse because Clause 19 gives virtually unlimited powers to the inspectorate.
  We should be interested not just in the powers of enforcement. The Robens Report said that the inspectors should not just enforce the law but should advise, assist and help with research. That will be a rôle which will be taxing on those who are now available, who are all too few. The Government should realise that it is a question not just of passing laws but of a need of money. We need money and we need a well-paid and well-staffed inspectorate. The shortage of inspectors emphasises the importance of the safety committees.
  The composition of the committees will, clearly, be a matter of some argument. I ask the Government not to be too inflexible about their composition. The most important single step that can be taken by the committees is to draw the workers into the safety movement and make them conscious of safety in factories. The committees should not be too restricted. In many cases it is the apathy of workers and not of management which causes accidents.
  I have two technical points to make and I hope that they will not sound too carping. Maybe an answer can be given today, but if not I shall understand.
  Clauses 2 to 7 set out the obligations which are imposed upon employers and employees. In breach of those obligations there is no civil liability but a criminal liability which is imposed by Clause 39. There is a civil liability between the employee and the employer. The employee can still sue his employer. He will have to match the ordinary standard of civil liability in that he will have to prove his case. The criminal liability which is imposed by Clause 39, about which I do not argue now, implies a totally different standard of proof which puts the burden of proof upon the employer to prove that he did all that was necessary.
  This interesting situation arises. The Civil Evidence Act allows the use in

  1329
  Civil cases of that conviction, if the employer be convicted. We may find that an employee setting out to prove his case and having to prove it on the ordinary basis of civil liability can use a conviction that has been obtained by a total reversal of that rôle, by making the employer prove his case in the criminal case that preceded the civil one. It is a technical legal point on which I do not expect an immediate answer, but I shall be interested to know how we get over what appears to be a difficulty.
  Clause 41 changes the normal standard. It requires that "all due diligence" should be observed. I am not sure what that means. I suspect it means that it will be a lucrative field for lawyers to argue. Why have we changed from the well-known standard of "reasonable care"? Does the change strengthen the law? Does it make better law? I cannot help the House on that, but I should be interested to hear the Front Bench view on it.
  I think that within this same week, but certainly within the same fortnight, New Zealand has passed a law which makes an entirely different approach to the whole question of accidents. The Accident Compensation Act, which is based on a report of some years ago by Mr. Justice Woodhouse, in simple terms makes accidents insurable. Insurance is paid when an accident occurs, and the right to a civil action has been removed. I have come to the conclusion that that is the direction in which we should move, and I will say briefly why.
  There are endless hazards in litigation which arise not only from lawyers. A crucial factor in any successful claim is that proper statements are obtained at an early stage. Some unions are excellent in this, but many are not. They may not have the expertise, they may not have the money or they may not be informed in time. Often there is failure to get statements and then there are delays in litigation.
  The second and equally important reason is that it becomes increasingly distressing to have to say, for instance, to a widow that she must accept the payment that has come into court, although it is not what I advise as the full amount she should get, when there is a danger that her husband who has been killed at work may have been guilty in some way
  1330
  of contributory negligence. He may have done something that contributed to his own accident. That feature should be taken out of what, after all, is a method of paying compensation to those who have received grievous injuries.
  What I feel is the overwhelming argument for going over to a form of insurance is based on the continuing inflation from which we suffer. That inflation, despite the Government's promises, I suspect we shall suffer for the rest of our lives, even if not, as I hope, at such a high rate. The award of a round sum to a widow or to a man who has been injured may look all right today, but it may look very sick in 10 years' time. The courts understand that perfectly well. Lawyers are not fools in that respect. They understand that there must be some protection for inflation. The argument is that it is possible, if a proper sum is awarded, to protect that sum against inflation by a proper investment policy. Unfortunately, one has to look no further than the Financial Times Index to see that such steps are extremely difficult. Awards in years gone by of £10,000, £20,000, £30,000 or £40,000 for quadriplegics, for men who are paralysed or who have terrible brain injuries, may look sick when one considers the investments that have been made to protect the awards against inflation. If we went over to a compensatory system in which there was no civil litigation, no doubt the lump sum would be replaced by a pension which would be tied to the cost-of-living index and go up as inflation proceeded.
  New Zealand has not found it too expensive. In terms of our national wealth it would not cost an enormous amount to take this step towards justice for those who suffer industrial accidents.
  I believe that the House will give widespread backing to the Bill, which comes with the support, and indeed the authorship, of both sides of the House.
  6.52 p.m.
  Mr. Alexander Wilson: I have listened attentively to the debate, but, despite the welcome that has been given to the Bill, I feel that it has been to some extent hastily conceived. I deplore the omission from the Preamble of a reference to the agricultural industry. There are many farms which are far larger than the small industrial units

  1331
  which the Bill covers. Many accidents occur on farms, particularly when tractors overturn, and I do not understand the logic of leaving agriculture outside the umbrella of the Bill.
  Far too much use is made in the Bill of the term
  "so far as is reasonably practicable."
  For example, Clause 3(1) provides:
  "It shall be the duty of every employer to conduct his undertaking in such a way as to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that persons not in his employment who may be affected thereby are not thereby exposed to risks to their health or safety."
  I see no reason why the words—
  "so far as is reasonably practicable"
  should not be deleted.
  Only this morning an article appeared in my local newspaper reporting that a local horticulturist had got up one morning last week and found that his fields, trees and flowers were covered with a white deposit. He said it looked as though snow had fallen. What had happened was that the cement works which were adjacent to his property had gone wrong. The area all round, including a caravan site on which children were playing, was covered with cement dust. Under the Bill the owner of the cement works could say that he had taken all precautions so far as is reasonably practicable, but anyone who knows that area knows that he is using a 300-yard long conveyor belt, and all that is required to safeguard the health of people living nearby is a covering for that conveyor belt. The Government should think again about this matter when the Bill goes to Committee so that the phrase can be deleted from many clauses in the Bill.
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said that he had received representations from the National Union of Mineworkers on the Bill and had tried to give it certain safeguards. I should like to see those safeguards written into the Bill rather than merely given in a verbal form. I do not question the honesty of my right hon. Friend, but if there is to be no gap in the provisions covering any change from the Mines and Quarries Act 1954 to the present system of protection in the mining industry I should like to see that guarantee written into the Bill.
  1332
  I should also like to see written into legislative form the fact that the present mines inspectorate will not be interfered with in any way and that there will be no diminution of its powers. It took over 50 years of hard fighting—mainly against Conservative Governments in the past—to get improvements in the mines, to reduce the accident rate and try to provide proper compensation for those suffering from industrial diseases. We in the mining industry will not give up that fight easily in the face of any Government, whether Labour or Tory. I should like to be given a categorical assurance—and perhaps if this assurance cannot be given today it can be given in Committee—that the inspectorate will remain inviolate, that its powers will not be diminished, and that there will be no watering down in its quality.
  I should like the Government to state plainly either that the coal mining industry and its needs are to be included in this legislation or that the Bill will supersede the existing safety and statutory powers laid down in the Mines and Quarries Act. I want to know whether all the improvements that we have fought for in the mining industry over many years will be included separately as a consolidation measure or will be contained in the provisions of the present Bill. Certainly those measures which have been so hard won by the mining industry would bring great benefit if applied to workers in the miscellaneous industries as well as to miners.
  The National Union of Mineworkers has asked the Secretary of State that the NUM, the National Coal Board and the coal mining industry should be allowed to chart their own course in terms of safety and health in the industry. Again I should like the Under-Secretary of State when he replies to give some assurance that this provision will be written into the Bill in Committee. I believe that it would be most unwise not to keep in being the mining inspectorate structure as it is at present constituted. I also have doubts about any governmental plans, if that is their intention, for the Chief Inspector of Mines no longer to be allowed direct access to the Secretary of State for Employment. The traditions of underground working in the mines are unique, and, therefore, I emphasise that the inspectorate must be kept in being as it now is. I hope that on behalf of

  1333
  the mining industry I shall be given that assurance tonight.
  I think it is true to say that many assurances are needed before the Bill goes through Committee. I understand that the Conservative Opposition welcome the Bill, and I appreciate the need for haste to get the Bill enacted. However, I would prefer the House to take its time in looking at these important provisions line by line and clause by clause, because I understand that it is not an interim measure. It might be a different matter if the Bill were merely an interim measure to effect improvements in miscellaneous industries, and if that were the case I would accept the Bill on those grounds. But if the Bill is to be considered as major legislation for many years to come, the Labour Government may be said to be acting somewhat hastily in compiling a Bill of this sort without first having proper consultations with the coalmining industry, which I have rightly referred to as a unique industry. If this legislation is to be regarded as merely an interim measure, I should like to see all references to legislation affecting codes of practice in the mining industry deleted from the Bill. Since the mining industry is unique in its working conditions, I believe that the provisions affecting the industry should be kept together in their entirety.
  Several speakers have drawn attention to the problem of the shortage of inspectors in miscellaneous industries, and certainly we in the mining industry are worried at the shortage of mining inspectors. I want to see no diminution in the standards set by inspectors, and I should like assurances that the qualifications of those entering this profession should be maintained, if not improved. I should like to see fruitful co-operation between the trade unions on the subject of health and safety at work. I gather that the Trades Union Congress has given a qualified welcome to the Bill, but I know that the NUM wants to see a close examination of the Bill's provisions. Therefore, fruitful consultations could take place and could he established right away so that there is no disruption in the safety requirements as they apply to mining.
  Section 123 of the 1954 Act gives a right of appointment to the NUM. This
  1334
  appears to be a bone of contention among some Conservative Members, but that right of appointment of safety inspectors and site observers is an important matter which has existed for some time. Many of my parliamentary colleagues and I have served in past years as workmen's inspectors, and we know that it comes as second nature to a miner to put safety as the first consideration in his work. The hon. Member for Blackpool, North (Mr. Miscampbell) referred to civil damages, and it is important in the mines—and this applies to other industries—that immediately an accident occurs there should be a representative from the safety committee, who is referred to in mining as a site observer on the scene before the area is disturbed in any way. This means that production must stop until that area has been fully explored and examined and a report made. Only at that stage should the observers or the local inpectors, in conjunction with management, give the necessary permission for production to resume.
  I have been present at many fatal accident investigations, and never at any time have I known the production to resume in that area until a full report has been made. We generally accepted that production could not resume within 24 hours of an accident occurring. This applies to all reportable accidents, not only to fatal accidents. This is a valuable practice in the industry.
  Mining is the most dangerous industry and we do not want to see any diminution of powers, which we have fought for over the years, in the hands of safety inspectors, local inspectors and site observers. Although this would not help the man who had been killed, it would be of assistance to his dependants if an immediate inspection were made on the site of the accident. In my view, there should be no interference with these arrangements.
  I hope that the Government will agree to amendments which will be moved in Committee by some of my hon. Friends, if not by me. I am worried about the problem of finding quickly, once this Bill becomes an Act, the number of inspectors which will be necessary to cover all of industry without reducing the numbers and the powers of inspectors in the

  1335
  mining industry. I can envisage a situation where big industrialists attract men who have spent years in the coal-mining industry doing this job with the lure of higher wages and better conditions, with the result that the industry where these men are needed so badly will be further denuded.
  I also want an assurance that positively no non-chartered milling engineers will be interposed anywhere in the line of command of the mining industry's inspectorate. The improvements envisaged in the Bill will benefit what I have called other miscellaneous industries, but I do not want to see any diminution in the safety standards already in the mining industry. I want to see those standards extended to every other industry.
  The Bill must be scrutinised carefully in Committee. My right hon. Friend reminded the House that it originated with the Robens Report. I ask hon. Members to study that report. In it they will find no reference to the coal-mining industry. In my view that is indicative of the fact that Robens, be he what he was, is or may be, was satisfied with his Committee that the coal mining industry was self-sufficient and efficient in itself in looking after the safety of the men who work in it. I ask the Government to consider leaving the coal mining industry with all the safety Acts, regulations and codes of practice as they are at the moment. If they do not feel able to give that assurance, I hope that they will do the next best thing and keep them in their entirety under the umbrella of this measure.
  I welcome the Bill, although I have those serious reservations. I hope that the Government will carefully consider the matters that I have raised.
  7.9 p.m.
  Mr. Philip Holland: I want first to congratulate the hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. Walker) on managing to arrive back on the Treasury Bench to deal with what we all hope will be the final attempt to get health and safety legislation on the statute book. The hon. Gentleman has spent so much time and effort on this subject in previous debates that it is fitting that he should now be in his present position to see
  1336
  this Bill through its various stages. Equally, it is perhaps fitting that I should be on the Opposition benches to make my own contribution. In the past I have expressed my opposition to limited attempts to tackle industrial safety on a piecemeal basis when what was clearly needed was comprehensive consolidating legislation dealing with the subject "in the round" after full and careful consultation with interested organisations.
  In this Bill we have such a broad approach to the subject, and I welcome it on those grounds. The fact that the last two General Elections interrupted the promotion of safety legislation causes me a little trepidation about the fate of this Bill. But I hope that this Parliament will last long enough to see it reach the statute book.
  As the Secretary of State said, the Bill represents something of a bipartisan approach to industrial safety and health. In the main, it was drafted by the previous administration. It has been accepted with modifications by the present Labour Government. For that reason, it is not difficult to predict that it will have a fairly smooth passage through its various stages. The omens for it are better than those for its predecessors, which sought to deal with industrial safety solely on the basis of the discretion of trade union appointed representatives in employments where trade unions were officially recognised by the employers.
  In view of my firm opposition in the past to narrowly restrictive proposals for tackling the problem of industrial accidents, it will not be surprising to hon. Members who took part in our earlier debates to learn that I feel impelled to make a comment or two on Clause 2(4), (5) and (6), largely because subsection (4) resuscitates the proposition that recognised trade unions may have the power to appoint safety representatives with functions to be specified under regulations still to be drafted.
  I shall not take up time by parading all the arguments which make nonsense of a proposition of that kind. Most of us have travelled this path before, and in some cases have agreed to differ on these matters. However, I believe that if safety representatives have any relevance, it is just as important that they

  1337
  should operate in non-union firms as in firms where unions are recognised.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and the Border (Mr. Whitelaw) said that we had to bear in mind that with a work force of between 24 million and 30 million, only 10 million were in unions affiliated to the TUC. To exclude those in non-union employment, as the subsection appears to do, is to suggest either that accidents occur only where trade unionists are employed or that the Government do not care about accidents which occur at places where non-trade unionists are employed. It would make more sense if the Government considered replacing the reference to "recognised trade unions" with one or more of the terms which appear in the Mines and Quarries Act 1954.
  I quote back at the Under-Secretary a reference from the 1954 Act which he once quoted at me. In Section 123(1)(a) and (b) references are made to
  "an association or body representative of a majority of the total number of persons employed."
  I commend that sort of description to the hon. Gentleman in place of the restrictive one of "recognised trade unions".
  If my suggestion were adopted, it would not remove the right of trade unions to nominate safety representatives where appropriate and where there were trade unions representing employees, but it would extend the provisions to all other firms above a certain size, and that is desirable. I hope, too, that such a modification would overcome some of the objections of my right hon. and hon. Friends.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Harold Walker): I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind references to me. I recall having had occasion to make reference to the Mines and Quarries Act when one of my hon. Friends was querying the words "trade unions". I pointed out to the hon. Gentleman that the wording used in the Mines and Quarries Act was indicative of trade unions. That clearly accorded with our intention then, and with our intention now. We are aware of the reality of the position in the coal-mining industry, that for all practical purposes, not withstand-
  1338
  ing the Industrial Relations Act, it is a closed shop.
  Mr. Holland: That I accept, and the point I am making is that there would be no difference in the intention if in this Bill we adopted some such wording as one finds in the Mines and Quarries Act. There would be no difference in the intention, but it would expand the scope of the Bill. It would include those places where trade unions did not exist or were not recognised by employers. It would be extending, not contracting, the terms of the legislation if we made that kind of alteration.
  There would certainly be no purpose in appointing safety representatives if they were not to be consulted. The duty imposed by subsection (5) on an employer to consult is a natural consequence of the effect of the requirement in subsection (4).
  Like my right hon. Friend and hon. Friends, I am not altogether happy about the provision for setting up safety committees in subsection (6). I should prefer this to be dealt with as a strong recommendation in a code of practice to be issued by the Health and Safety Commission rather than as a mandatory requirement. I say that because strong encouragement to voluntary action is likely to produce more co-operative and, perhaps, more effective safety committees than would a statutory requirement.
  If such committees are to be mandatory —I recognise that there is a strong feeling on both sides of the House that they should be mandatory, and I accept that—for goodness' sake let us make them mandatory on all companies over a certain size and not allow them to be set up at the whim or otherwise of individual safety representatives. If there is to be a rule, let it be a universal rule applying to all companies of a certain size but taking account of effective arrangements for consultation on safety which may already exist on a voluntary basis in a particular company or industry.
  I now come to more general matters in the Bill. I welcome the establishment of the Health and Safety Commission and its attendant Health and Safety Executive. But, if there is to be a single authority for industrial health and safety, is it a

  1339
  good idea to dilute its responsibilities by making exemptions from its functions in the case of agriculture and the Employment Medical Advisory Service? I should have thought that this would be an excellent opportunity to transfer the functions of the Employment Medical Advisory Service to an enlarged Health and Safety Commission.
  I do not understand why it is desirable for the Health and Safety Commission to take responsibility in the construction industry, the engineering industry, the mining industry and the rest, and not give it an equally important rôle to play in agriculture. Like the hon. Members for Westhoughton (Mr. Stott) and Hamilton (Mr. Wilson), I, too, would like to know why agriculture has been left out.
  A good deal of research is needed to combat the high fatality rate in agriculture and the high risk of brucellosis. If it is argued that the Minister of Agriculture is better able to deal with health and safety in that industry, by the same token other Ministers should retain responsibility for other industries, and support for the principle of a central authority crumbles, which I, for one, would deplore.
  I should like to see not only the scope of the Health and Safety Commission but the whole scope of the Bill broadened. For example I am sorry that the opportunity has not been taken to bring up to date and to incorporate in this legislation the welfare provisions of the Factories Act 1961. I refer to Part III and parts of Part IV of that Act. But, perhaps, with the limited time available to this Government—we all know how limited that time is—it may be expecting too much to ask them to expand the legislation too widely.
  As regards the function of the commission, I have one detailed question about which I should like enlightenment when the Minister winds up. Does the general wording of Clause 10(2)(b) empower the commission to provide advisory and training services to firms not large enough to employ their own safety adviser, or, as an alternative, to make funds available to assist in or stimulate the setting up of group safety arrangements for small firms? It would be helpful if we could have an answer today, but, if not, please
  1340
  may I have an answer as soon as possible?
  I conclude with an assurance of my own general support for the Bill, and I reiterate the hope that this measure may have time to reach the statute book before we once more have to go back to the hustings.
  7.20 p.m.
  Mr. David Watkins: I agree with what the hon. Member for Carlton (Mr. Holland) said about the exclusion of the agriculture industry from the scope of the Bill. He will not be surprised to learn that I disagreed with his remarks about joint consultation. As he said, a number of us have travelled this road before, and there are certain matters about which we have agreed to differ.
  There are about 250,000 people in receipt of disablement benefits because they have suffered disabilities incurred in the course of their work. There are about 30,000 widows who became widows because their husbands were killed in the course of earning their living.
  I welcome the Bill. I recognise that passing a Bill does not solve the terrible problems of industrial ill health and injury. However, the Bill is the most comprehensive ever introduced to consolidate existing legislation and to seek to make the application of that legislation more effective.
  Several hon. Members have spoken about the dilatoriness of the House in dealing with industrial safety legislation. The situation is worse than any hon. Member has indicated. Hon. Members on both sides of the House have referred to the setting up of the Robens Committee by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services as the starting point of this Bill. That was not the starting point. It was only one of the milestones on the long road from the starting point. The period of gestation of this Bill has been no less than seven years. It was as long ago as 1967 that Mr. Ray Gunter, the then Minister of Labour, announced in the House that it was his intention to introduce a major Bill to consolidate existing legislation. That was the first announcement of what has finally turned out to be this Bill.
  After that announcement, however, it was March 1970 before the then Labour Government introduced their Health and Safety Bill, which was a lesser measure

  1341
  than that envisaged in the original announcement. Following a protracted filibuster by the Opposition in Committee, that Bill was lost on the Dissolution of Parliament in 1970. It was three and a half years after the previous Government took office that they introduced what was certainly a major Bill and in many respects the predecessor of this Bill, but that Bill was introduced at the fag end of a Parliament and it never received a Second Reading before the House was dissolved for the recent election.
  It is interesting to note the injury figures during the period that the House has taken to make up its mind to give a Second Reading to the Bill. The figures for 1973 are not available. The last available report of the Chief Inspector of Factories refers to 1972. However, the reports for the years 1967 to 1972, inclusive, indicate that 3,387 people were killed at work and more than 1,770,000 were injured.
  That is only part of the grim toll, because the Chief Inspector reports only on premises which come within the purview of the Factory Inspectorate. They are a fraction of the total number of work places. A more accurate but still by no means complete picture is given by the number of successful claims for injury benefit. In the same period the total number of claims was more than 5,090,000. These figures are a measure of the problem, and I welcome the change of approach. The Government have introduced the Bill at the beginning of a Session. They have introduced it with some sense of urgency and are treating it as a matter of top priority.
  I turn next to the proposals for joint consultation, which I much welcome. Notwithstanding what has been said in this debate, no good employer need fear these measures because every good employer already engages in joint consultation—not compulsory joint consultation —on these matters. I want to make sure that the scope for compulsory consultation is extended beyond the company's employees to include their appointed agents acting especially on behalf of workers who have been injured in accidents. Let me give an example to illustrate my point.
  A year ago, on Friday 30th March, there was a horrifying accident at Messrs. Tennent's foundry at Coatbridge, in
  1342
  Scotland. An explosion occurred whilst molten metal was being poured. I should like to quote a sentence from the letter written by Mr. Geough, the branch secretary of the foundry section of the Amalgamated Union of Engineering Workers, to inform Mr. Simpson, the general secretary, about what had happened. He said:
  "Two men died in a sea of molten metal after a blast occurred, four others were seriously injured in the horror."
  Those simple words paint more vividly than all the parliamentary eloquence in the world the sheer horror of an accident in what one of my hon. Friends referred to rather scathingly as one of the miscellaneous industries. I should add that one of those injured men died later from his appalling injuries.
  That accident happened in a firm which has a very good safety record. The management was shocked and appalled, and since that time the process in which the accident occurred has been discontinued, at considerable financial cost.
  The conduct of the management of that company is in striking contrast to the conduct of its insurers, the Eagle Star Insurance Company. The insurance company tried to prevent the trade union's legal representatives and experts from inspecting the premises after the accident. The employers fully accepted their liability in the accident, but the insurance company refused to consider any admission of liability and used delaying tactics against the claims on behalf of the injured and dependants of the deceased.
  That accident, which I have quoted to illustrate the point I am making about extending the scope of compulsory consultation, alone makes the case not only for compulsory joint consultation with work people but for it to be extended to the trade unions' accredited representatives in investigating accidents.
  I take up briefly something said by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State in introducing the Bill. That accident did not happen in the days of Robert Owen; it happened last year, the second half of the twentieth century. If an insurance company could act in that way when representing a reputable and honourable employer, what could happen if it had been representing some backstreet sweatshop proprietor? Such proprietors exist. It might have been representing the proprietor of the Con-Mech

  1343
  Engineering Company, or someone of his ilk.
  The case for the Bill is overwhelming. It is urgent, and I welcome the urgency shown by the Government. Notwithstanding the threatening words uttered earlier from the now empty Liberal benches, I hope that there will be cooperation in getting the Bill through the House. I agree that certain proposals need to be considered with some care in Committee, but I hope that the Bill will get a Second Reading and become law before the Summer Recess.
  7.30 p.m.
  Mr. Tom King: I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Consett (Mr. Watkins). In an eloquent way, in addition to the facts that he used, he demonstrated why so many of us are concerned about this issue. He was right to point out to his hon. Friend that we recognise that mining is an industry acutely concerned, and naturally so, about the dangers and hazards of its activities.
  We are here because there are many other industries as dangerous but, perhaps, not as aware of it. It is for that reason that my hon. Friend the Member for Carlton (Mr. Holland) referred to agriculture, because more people are killed in agriculture in a year than are killed in mining, yet there is common belief that agriculture is a healthy, safe outdoor activity, the concern for safety in agriculture does not always get the attention that it should have.
  I warmly welcome the Bill. The hon. Member for Consett said how wise it was that the Bill had been introduced at last at the beginning of the Session. I hope that it is not near the end of the Session as well. I served my parliamentary apprenticeship with the hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. Walker). The first Committee on which I ever served, after a by-election, was on the Employed Persons (Health and Safety) Bill, to which the hon. Member has referred. We reached Clause 1 and down came the final curtain; it happened again in the last Parliament. Let us hope that it is third time lucky and that we are able to get this Bill on the statute book.
  The hon. Member for Consett criticised the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Smith) for suggesting that there might be one or two selective amendments to the
  1344
  Bill, but it is clear from what my hon. Friends have said that there is a part of the Bill, particularly the provisions about the consultative committee, which does not stand up at the moment. We understand the Government's purposes but even they are not quite right, because, although they may be in favour of compulsory unionism for all, it does not exist and one has to provide, in order to get a swift passage of the Bill, for safety for all in the interim before Heaven, for the hon. Gentleman, is finally achieved.
  I am speaking in the debate as somebody who is a little cynical about the real impact of legislation. I have had the privilege of working in industry. I was responsible for a time as manager for a factory, which the hon. Member for Consett will know was close to his home area, employing 700 people in the printing and packaging industry. It was an old factory on five floors, a fire hazard. There was no fire escape when it was originally constructed.
  There was some new machinery, some old; some British machinery constructed to conform to British safety standards, some imported and made to rather different standards. These are all problems that affect so many managers and impose problems for them in British industry today. We had printing machines and guillotines, guillotines that should not go wrong, but we also had numbers of people whose hands bore starkest testimony to the dangers of their equipment. In the printing industry there are many small accidents that bring home to anybody with responsibility in that industry the need for constant attention to safety problems.
  I recognise the need for comprehensive law, for bringing this law up to date and for proper regulations. The Secretary of State referred to the need for the Bid to have teeth. I hope that they will not be false teeth: I hope that they will not be used as a shield behind which to pretend that something is being done about safety.
  I shall not restate the statistics, which have already been given, but 1,000 deaths a year is an appalling situation. We worry about casualties in Ulster; we worry about spectacular accidents; but 1,000 deaths every year, happening one here, one there—and, as the hon. Member for Consett said, perhaps 1,000

  1345
  widows every year—when seen collectively is an appalling situation. It will be tackled not by legislation but principally by bringing the need and the urgency of this problem home to everybody in every factory.
  The hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Wilson) spoke about the mines and the need for their safety structure and the system not to be impaired by the Bill. He rightly said that what we wanted was not any diminution of the safety provisions in the mining industry, but other industries to come up to those standards. I support that view, because the mining industry can claim to be the one industry that is acutely aware of the need for safety. It is aware of ever-present danger. Our problem, as I have said, is that so many other industries are blissfully unaware until something happens. Then everybody rushes around and there is a short burst of excitement and interest in the problem.
  The hon. Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Kinnock)—everybody seems anxious to prove that he can now pronounce that word—introduced a motion in which he called for
  "Extensive education of workers and employers and new comprehensive legislation to deal with precautions against and consequences of industrial accidents and diseases."
  I think that everyone who heard him on that occasion would agree that he made an excellent speech. I am particularly interested in the first part of that motion, which is not really covered in the Bill and which is the part from which the greatest results will be achieved. That is, of course, in extensive education.
  I was horrified by the Secretary of State who, in his peroration, stated the three pillars on which the Bill must stand but totally omitted any responsibility on management. I have always believed that, as President Truman used to say, "The buck stops here", that the buck for safety stopped with the management. Managements have an overriding responsibility to everybody who works in their employment to be responsible for their safety. I recognise the importance of consultation, but it does not take that responsibility from management. A manager can consult like mad with his safety committee, but he cannot then say
  1346
  —and I hope that nobody in the House would say that he could—"If the safety committee says it is all right. I have no further responsibility". He still has an overriding responsibility for the safety of everybody who works in his employment.
  I go further than that. We have said before that one of the weaknesses of industrial relations in this country is that there is not a responsibility at the top in the greater mass of companies—a director on the main board directly charged with responsibility for industrial relations; nor is there a director charged with responsibility for safety and health. Boards are far too frequently inclined to appoint a safety officer and say that the matter is taken care of. This responsibility should be at board level. There should be a director who is responsible.
  I fully support what I think my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Mr. Money) said, that the provision that was in the Companies Act, that major companies—obviously there would be a cut-off point—would be responsible in what is sometimes called their social audit for recording accidents and their record of safety, not merely as a statement of what accidents had happened, but what was positively being done to prevent further accidents.
  I welcome the provision in the Bill for written safety and health notices and the obligation on management to bring them to the attention of everybody in the company. It seems to me that this must be complemented by a statement in the company's annual report and accounts.
  There is obviously a need for managements to be instructed in their safety responsibilities. We have improved, but not enough. When I was appointed to a management position in a group of which I am extremely proud—it is in this country a major group extremely progressive in these fields —I did not in fact have my attention drawn to my responsibilities for safety. That is probably the practice in a lot of places; one may be shown one's responsibilities for profit, and the difficulties, problems and limitations on the management in the plant; but particular attention to safety responsibilities is obviously important, and I welcome this provision in Clause 4.

  1347
  I welcome also the provision in Clause 6 that employees shall have a responsibility to co-operate, because this is the other end of the problem. How many of us know factories where proper safety provisions are provided, but where the employee finds that the guard is a nuisance on the machine because it gets in his way when he wants to adjust it, so that when one goes round the guard is removed, and it is in place only when everybody knows that the factory inspector is coming? How often will employees cut corners out of idleness or carelessness, and not observe the proper safety provisions?
  There is another factor which seems to have received too little attention both generally and in the Bill, and that is, the problem of fatigue. We talk about health in this context rather in the negative sense of preventing people from getting ill. How about getting people fitter? People are inclined to laugh at some of the Japanese methods, one of which is to make everybody turn out for a keep-fit class. I think that they quite often do this twice a day.
  When I had a factory I noticed how people's interest in their work, their output, and their general alertness, diminished, and therefore their liability to injury and accident increased as the day went on. I am sure that, in many cases, where people are doing monotonous and repetitive work, a complete break—10 minutes, twice round the factory—would do a lot of good. It may sound extreme and extraordinary, but I think that this is the sort of imaginative approach which could make quite a contribution in much of industry.
  Mr. Money: Will my hon. Friend agree that environment is also very important? I give him one brief example. During the recent emergency, when power was available for only three days a week, in Ransome and Rapier's many of the shops were painted. This was done to use the available opportunities and manpower. As a result, not only has production gone up, but there is a much better feeling already within the shops concerned.
  Mr. King: I do not know that that is directly connected, but I certainly agree
  1348
  about environment. I know of a large biscuit plant in Glasgow where the management used to change the colour of the wall at one end of the factory once a week just to give a bit of variety on a very large open-plan layout and to change the scenery.
  Fitness and the problem of fatigue should receive more attention. There is no mention in the Bill of any concentration on eliminating unnecessarily fatiguing work.
  There is a further aspect of fatigue which should receive attention—the extent of what is called "moonlighting" in British industry. There are no statistics available about this, but it undoubtedly has an effect on health and safety. I remember one occasion very well. Immediately after an accident, the first words of a printer—whom everybody thought was a devoted company servant—on recovering from the accident were, "Will somebody ring up Securicor and say that I will not be round this afternoon?" Doing too much has its consequences. It may not have been a coincidence that he suffered an accident; it may have been due to the fact that he was working a 16-hour day.
  One further point concerns me. Factory inspectors seem to work to double standards. This has been my impression. Clause 39 refers to employers making such improvements as are "practicable". The problem that faces the factory inspector is that he can go into a modem plant and see certain small and minor improvements that are desirable. He can request that these improvements are made and they can be made without too much difficulty. He can then go into another plant where the only real solution in the interests of health and safety is that the whole place should be closed down. In such a situation the factory inspector, in my experience, tends not to concentrate on plant of that sort because to do so would cause unemployment and it would present major problems. I believe that this is a difficulty and a challenge for factory inspectors.
  All hon. Members recognise the size of the problem. They recognise, I hope, that by passing this Bill, giving it a Second Reading and taking it through its final stages, we shall not solve the problem. The price of a better record

  1349
  of fewer accidents and improved health in industry is eternal vigilance by all.
  I am always mindful of John Glenn who went all the way to the moon and back, taking every precaution that modern science and technology could do to protect him from any danger or accident. A month after his return to earth he was having a shower, and he fell over and broke his arm. Having a bath in his own home proved to be much more dangerous than going to the moon and back again.
  That is a lesson for us in this House. We must pay constant attention to these problems, and in so far as the Bill will stimulate everybody to take an imaginative interest in making industrial work safer and healthier, I welcome it.
  7.47 p.m.
  Mr. T. W. Urwin: I take this opportunity to congratulate my right hon. Friend and hon. Friends on bringing forward this Bill so early in the life of the Government. It is certainly extremely important, but I begin my remarks on a rather quizzical note. I ask my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State to explain why it has been found necessary to include building regulations in a Bill of this nature. I should have thought that the importance of building regulations and the enormous ramifications which are involved in such a subject were of sufficient importance to require the introduction of a separate Bill.
  My remarks will be based on the construction industry. I give a warm and unqualified welcome to Clause 2, which calls upon the employers to ensure that safety representatives are appointed by the trade unions and safety committees are established. Here I take issue with the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Smith) who, despite his size, is conspicuous by his absence. Having made his speech, he has retired with his formidable array of four Liberal colleagues and has left the debate to those who are obviously more interested in it.
  I take issue with the hon. Gentleman on the basis of my experience as a trade union official, both part time and—for 10 or II years before I entered the House —as a full-time officer of a building union. It is the trade union officer,
  1350
  usually the site steward—and I had the experience of training afterwards—who, on reaching a certain level of efficiency, is quickly promoted by the employer to the position of safety officer. I recall two particular cases. The individuals concerned are now occupying quite important positions in two national building firms.
  I should have thought it was more beneficial to rely on the trade unions to nominate such people. Under Clause 3, the responsibility devolves on the employees and the self-employed not to endanger themselves or others. My attention is immediately drawn to the problem of the self-employed. It is surely far better to have trade union representatives in these important positions than to rely upon non-union people on the building site, or upon the self-employed.
  It is by now a well-known fact that the self-employed render themselves more vulnerable to accidents than those who become safety-oriented as a result of their training within the trade union movement. It is vital that we have site officers concerned with safety, having regard to some of the practices that frequently take place in the construction industry.
  It was my experience, in extensively visiting building construction sites, that. because of the absence of a safety officer, it was necessary to draw the attention of the representative of the employer, usually the site foreman, to the fact that a ladder finished only a foot or so above the level of the scaffold—sometimes with awesome consequences for the unsuspecting person who climbed that ladder and found that there was nothing left for his hand to hold on to—or, the occasion when the ladder was not secured to the scaffold or lashed in any way. Men, sometimes inexperienced men, dig trenches at such a depth as to require timber bracing and shuttering, but such precautions are not taken. There have been some awful consequences of such neglect on sites.
  Unfortunately, when drawing the attention of operatives on the site to these deficiencies and omissions, I was all too often met with the response that they wanted to get on with the job and that the firm or the foreman were not too concerned. They were, in the main, conscientious people who would prefer to get on with the job. But many practices in the construction industry literally

  1351
  demand that a new attitude be developed towards safety.
  I have some reservations about the number of factory inspectors currently available for safety surveillance in such a large industry as construction—incidentally, rivalling coal mining in its accident rate, and frequently at the top of the league table. I ask my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State to give us evidence this evening to satisfy us that the Factory Inspectorate will be enlarged to ensure that bad practices are eliminated wherever possible.
  I turn now to Clause 5, which places a duty on
  "any person who designs, manufactures, imports or supplies any article"
  or substance for use at work to ensure that such articles and substances are
  "safe and without risks to health when properly used".
  All those on the Government side who have ben involved in some section of industry or another are fully acquainted with industrial and non-industrial diseases and the ravages they effect on the unfortunate individuals who fall victim to them. I link Clause 5 with Clause 10, which deals with the general functions of the commission and executive, and I pose one or two questions to my hon. Friend for his consideration.
  Will he be more explicit about the functions of the commission and the executive in the context of the research referred to in Clause 10? Does it mean that the continuing research into industrial diseases, including some of the lesser known and newer diseases—one thinks here of asbestosis—will be the responsibility of the commission? Will he indicate to what extent there will be research into and testing of building materials?
  In these advanced technological days, there are all sorts of innovations in building materials. We have the increasing use of plastics, and timber. The awful fire in the Isle of Man must be very fresh in the mind of every hon. Member. That building was constructed extensively of Oroglas. I have my doubts about the extent of testing and research into that material. We should, wherever possible, offset the chances of that kind of incident happening again.
  In this context, I see no reference in the Bill to the Building Research Centre—
  1352
  whether its resources, facilities or ability are to be harnessed and utilised by the commission and the executive in the researches to which I refer.
  Another aspect of safety is design, which is dealt with in Clause 5. I recall the terrible accidents that have taken place on bridges over motorways. The most recent which comes to mind is the Loddon Bridge disaster. There has been a great deal of controversy over the box girder design of the bridge. This was not the first accident of its kind. There have been earlier ones in Germany, one on the Yarra in Melbourne—probably about five altogether.
  Grave doubts were cast on the construction and design of these bridges. There was an inquiry which dragged on for a long time, but I am hazy on the question whether any benefit finally accrued. To what extent will the Commission be responsible for the design of this sort of thing?
  I have been interested in the comments of some hon. Members, particularly the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Money). This is a vitally important facet of industry and far too little attention is paid to it by both employers and operatives. In the construction industry a large number of firms fully honour their responsibilities and options in this regard. There are others which are not safety-oriented, and many of them do not bother to indulge in the kind of training that is required.
  It is against this background that I have been pleased to note a circular dated 14th March from the Construction Industry Training Board, which indicates that at the centre of Bircham Newton, near King's Lynn, there is to be established a two-year training course for boys of 17 who come straight from school to the centre and are trained in the use of heavy plant and expensive mechanical equipment. This training, carried out in conjunction with the employers, will undoubtedly have its effect on safety as well as making the lads more conscious of the necessity for safety.
  When I was a Minister in the previous Labour Government, I took the opportunity of going over to Bircham Newton. I was impressed by the facilities available for the training of adults in this field.

  1353
  I was impressed, too, by the jocular comment of the instructor when I asked him about the attitudes of men and which machines they favoured most. I said "What about the dumper?" to which he answered, "That is usually the job reserved for the village idiot". This, unfortunately, is the thinking that has permeated the construction industry for a long time. I am sure that it is not so prevalent now as it once was, but that was somewhat indicative of the attitude adopted by some people towards safety.
  There is always the inevitability of accidents. No matter how well organised one is or how well-oriented we are towards safety, the day, hour and minute comes when an accident of some dimension occurs.
  I refer in this context to the Loddon Bridge disaster. Some of us, when in Opposition, taxed the then Secertary of State for Employment about the desirability of and the necessity for a public inquiry into the cause of the disaster, not only to get the full picture but to help the national officers of trade unions who were representing the relatives of men who died in the accident to ascertain its true cause, for legal reasons. We were not successful. This has been and no doubt still is the practice. Presumably, if a similar accident were to happen there would be an inspector's inquiry rather than a public inquiry. When men sacrifice their lives, perhaps because of failures by other people, surely there should be a public inquiry in order that the full story can be told. I see no reference in the Bill to any such procedure. However, I feel sure that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and his Ministers, with their ability and ingenuity, can arrange for something along those lines to be worked into the Bill in Committee.
  Mr. Harold Walker: Perhaps I can help my hon. Friend by asking him to look at Clause 13, which meets the request that he is putting forward.
  Mr. Urwin: I am glad to have that assurance. I had certainly overlooked it. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for drawing my attention to that inclusion.
  I address my final remarks to operations outside the curtilage of industrial premises. I am motivated by the mem-
  1354
  ory of a dreadful accident that took place in my constituency last year. A boy of 12, when crossing a mineral line, was run down by coal wagons owned by the National Coal Board. Far too little attention is paid by the National Coal Board and certain other industrial organisations to mineral lines which are completely open to the public. The youngster to whom I have referred was innocently crossing the mineral line, not knowing that the wagons were about to move, when he was run down. He is lucky to be alive. However, he is disfigured and badly handicapped for life. I should like some provision to be put into the Bill to deal with that kind of situation.
  8.3 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Latham: I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Urwin), who has immense experience in the building industry and has put forward some important practical points.
  I have come to this House from the building industry. I had the honour to be a director of the House-Builders' Federation and an official of the National Federation of Building Trades Employers. I still have a consultancy interest in the building industry, which I immediately declare.
  Every accident or death that takes place in the construction industry is one too many. I am sure that everybody will agree about that. The industry, through its joint regular procedure of discussions with operatives and employers, has a good record for trying to get over to sites, through films, joint demonstrations, and so on, the need for greater safety. Although the construction industry in this country has a large number of fatalities, its safety record is the best of any construction industry in the world. Of course, like coal mining and other industries which have been mentioned, it is a dangerous industry.
  I welcome the Bill. I shall confine my remarks to a few specific practical points on which I hope the Minister will be able to give assurances tonight or subsequently in Committee. I will endeavour to avoid making what may seem to be Committee points.
  I should like to deal with two different parts of the Bill: first, Clause 2 (4),

  1355
  about which other hon. Members have spoken, and, secondly, that part dealing with the building regulations which I think only the hon. Member for Houghton-le-Spring has mentioned.
  At one time I did not agree with the idea of compulsory safety committees and representatives, but I have changed my mind. I have come to the conclusion that these are necessary and that this change should be made. However, it is undesirable that powers of the importance of those put into the Bill should be dealt with by regulation. I believe that they should be in clauses in the Bill so that they can be discussed properly in the House.
  Mention was made of the Employed Persons (Safety) Bill introduced by several hon. Members and by the previous Labour Government. The only time that it was properly discussed was in Committee in June 1972. That Bill, introduced by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hatters-ley), did not get beyond the Committee stage because of shortage of time.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Carlton (Mr. Holland) made many specific points during the Committee stage of that Bill—for example, the proposed number of workers needed for a safety committee in a factory or the number needed for the right of permanent safety representative, the definition in the Bill of a dangerous accident or occurrence, the need for formal reports in writing after inspections had taken place, and many other matters. Because of the time available to that Committee, the sponsor of the Bill did not fully reply to the points that were made, and to some he was unable to reply at all.
  It is somewhat regrettable that Ministers should seek power now by regulations to deal with matters for which they were previously unable to command the support of the House. This is particularly regrettable because I am not satisfied that the regulations will be subject to the full debating procedure of this House. I asked the Secretary of State about this matter when he introduced the Bill, and he said that his hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State would mention it in winding up. I look forward to hearing what he has to say.
  1356
  Consultation about regulations with both sides of industry is right and proper, but this House also has a right to be consulted.
  There are a number of points on which the Minister's guidance is particularly necessary before the House can effectively discuss the matter. First, will it still be necessary that there should be 10 workers for a safety representative and 100 workers for a safety committee? That was the stipulation in the previous Bill. Will there be a proper definition of the excluded casual workers?
  Secondly, is it understood that the safety representative nominated by the trade union, as he should be, is primarily there to do his paid job in the factory, whatever it may be, and that his duties as safety representative must fit in with that?
  Thirdly, will the proposal in Clause 2(5) of the previous Bill introduced by the hon. Member for Sparkbrook, by which a written report of an inspection was at the discretion of the safety representative, be strengthened?
  Fourthly, do the proposals that the safety representative must be at least 23 years of age, have five years' industrial experience and two years' experience in the particular industry, still hold good? The previous Bill referred to only two years' experience "so far as reasonably practicable." Except for new factories, that is inadequate. In all cases, two years' experience should be necessary.
  I also look to the Minister for guidance on the aggregation provisions. These are important in the building industry. It would be nonsense, with 10 building sites and 10 men on each, to have a safety committee because 100 men were employed and to have the safety committee permanently touring the building sites. We must know more about this proposal and have it properly thought through.
  I turn now to Part III which deals with building regulations. This, as the hon. Member for Houghton-le-Spring said, has very little to do with the rest of the Bill. I know that my right hon. Friend was originally to blame for that matter, but I think it would be better if it were in a separate Bill. I assume that in Committee we shall have a Minister

  1357
  from the Department of the Environment to deal with these technical matters, which I am sure will be raised.
  The proposals in Part III follow the proposals for a building Bill in a document on which the industry gave full comments to the previous Government. Most of the matters in the Bill require regulations on which full consultation will be essential.
  Finally, I wish to mention two other matters. The first relates to Clause 62 (3), which gives local authorities power to charge fees for building regulation approval. To what level? Indeed, why do this now? Surely anything which helps to increase construction costs at this time, particularly with the poor state of the house building industry, about which the whole House is dissatisfied, with no obvious increase in efficiency is to be deplored. After all, building work after it is completed, results in added rate income.
  Clause 68 (5) of the Bill imposes the cost of testing soils, materials or components on the builder or materials supplier. I am advised by experts that it is accepted practice in the British Standards Institution that only when the test shows the material to be inferior is the cost of testing borne by the supplier. That point should be considered again, and there should be a similar arrangement in the Bill as exists for the British Standards Institution.
  This is an entirely non-political Bill and commands the assent of the whole House. I hope that the Minister, in the concluding speech, can give assurances on my points, or write to me, or that they can be explored further in Committee.
  8.10 p.m.
  Mr. Walter Johnson: The welcome given to the Bill by both sides of the House must be heartening to the Government, and the Bill should have a speedy passage.
  I particularly welcome the proposed changes that will provide for the appointment of trade union representatives on joint factory committees. Both sides of industry must be convinced that whatever their differences in many other matters they have a common interest in health and safety. Some employers have been worried about compulsory represen-
  1358
  tation for trade unions. I cannot understand this attitude. It can only mean that general industrial relations in such companies have been very bad. If that is so, it is time they were put right, and the Bill may help in that direction.
  We must accept, from the trade union standpoint, that the Robens Report found apathy to be the main cause of accidents. There is no question about this. People tend to be apathetic about safety regulations. The big problem is that familiarity breeds contempt. I am a national officer of one of the railway trade unions and I am aware that railway employees—particularly those working on the permanent way—because they do the job day after day take chances, even though they know that there are safety regulations. They take chances and try to get away with it week after week and year after year. They take chances which they should not take.
  I hope that as a result of the regulations which will come into force under the Bill it will be possible to set up voluntary committees, without having to use statutory provisions. Co-operation is needed from both sides of industry in matters of safety and health and it is better that this co-operation should be voluntry rather than brought about by statutory means.
  I am also anxious about conditions in offices, in particular where health is concerned. Care should be taken to ensure that there is non-manual as well as manual representation on the joint safety committees.
  I am an honorary national officer of the National Federation of Professional Workers, which has a particular interest in office conditions. The federation had some doubt about the Robens' proposals and the initial consultative document issued by the last Government, but in the end the federation was broadly satisfied with the assurances that there was no intention to remove existing statutory protection at present. The federation understands that the effective safeguards of the existing factories legislation and the Offices, Shops and Railways Premises Act will remain in force.
  While considering office conditions we should look at the general office conditions in the Palace of Westminster. We should, in particular, consider the staff

  1359
  conditions, and I suggest that the Sergeant at Arms should look at the working conditions of many employees in this building. An example of the sort of conditions which the employees have to put up with can be found in the Whips' Office, where there are three or four people in one room, each trying to do a job. This would not be tolerated in industry. I would certainly not tolerate it. I would be trying to do something about it. I hope that action will be taken as a result of the debate.
  When the Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act was introduced there were misgivings about the enforcing authorities. Responsibility was given in general to local authorities rather than to the Factory Inspectorate, but each annual report to the Minister on this matter has pointed to the wide disparities in standards of inspection and enforcement by different authorities. It may be that local government reform will bring some improvement, but it could work the other way round, particularly in those areas where the reason for comparative failure has been lack of the necessary staff.
  It is not always the case that local authority staff include those who are expert in examination of machinery, lifts and other installations. We hope that in practice there will be a measure of allocation of responsibilities by function rather than by type of authority—for example, the commission's inspectors could be responsible for approval of machinery, lifts, and similar installations, where necessary. On the other hand, local authority inspectors could suitably extend their functions relating to offices to cover health and amenity requirements in factories to a greater extent than at present, especially if there is to be an end to the routine inspections by the Factory Inspectorate which, up to now; has been on a supposed four-yearly tour.
  We must warmly welcome the long overdue extension of factory protection to those employments not previously covered, including some of those notable exceptions from the Offices, Shops and Railways Premises Act—theatres and schools. The present proposals give protection to virtually all employment at work places as well as protection to the public in the vicinity.
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  The object of the Bill is to ensure an overall improvement in safety and health wherever work is carried on. We all know how necessary this is. I remind the House that we are talking about health as well as safety. There seems to be a tendency to confine discussion to the safety aspect. Safety risks are a major consideration on the railways, but, in office employment danger to life and limb is substantially less than in manual work in factories and mines, though by no means negligible, as reports on the working of the Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act show.
  Conditions in work places—no less, and indeed sometimes more in the office than elsewhere—are often a major factor in the spread of diseases which are not strictly speaking industrial in origin, the common cold being top of the league.
  I am glad that after years of argument it has at last been recognised that noise-induced deafness may be accepted as a prescribed industrial disease, though at present this is confined to two main industries. There may be little evidence of actual deafness caused by undue noise in the office, but it was accepted in a report presented to Parliament a few years ago that there are limits to the amount of noise which can be accepted in places such as offices, where the test adopted was what was called the speech interference level. If the strain and stress created by undue noise, or by other factors which may be related to the conditions of employment, result in a breakdown in the mental health of an office worker, it may not be prescribable as an industrial disease but it should nevertheless be the concern of a joint safety committee to provide protection against it.
  If we are to improve health and safety standards there must inevitably be an expansion of the work of the specialists in the inspectorate and the local authorities. If the joint safety committees are to be successful they should do what is done by the inspectors and not try to replace them. They will need the service and advice of those inspectors.
  Those employers who break the law and continue to offend in this way will need a whole process of advice, warnings, improvement notices, prohibition notices and, in the last resort prosecution. It appears to be the intention, and

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  it is certainly necessary, not to have the same routine as in the past to enforce standards which employers do not voluntarily follow. All these powers and duties involve the inspectorate, and if we are to get the right people to do the job we must consider their pay and conditions. This is where we have been falling down over the years.
  The Government should not be looking over their shoulders all the time at the cost. The training requirements are very important. Whatever legislation we have, however well intentioned it may be and whatever support and co-operation the unions and employers offer, we shall still fall far short of the health and safety service that the country so urgently needs unless we have the right people to do the work and the right attitude from employers and unions. It is in that spirit that I welcome the Bill; I am certain that it will receive an unopposed Second Reading.
  8.22 p.m.
  Mr. Patrick Mayhew: No maiden speaker can rise in the House of Commons without a considerable feeling of alarm. To borrow a phrase from Clause 2 of this Bill, I feel that my "instruction, training and supervision" have been woefully inadequate for the task.
  My constituency has been carved out of the old constituency of Tonbridge and the old constituency of Ashford. I am the successor of two distinguished and long-serving Members. The portion that I have gained from the old Tonbridge constituency was for 17 years represented by Mr. Dick Hornby. Many hon. Members have told me since my arrival in what high regard he was held here—a regard which is matched by that of his constituents. The same is true, of course, of my predecessor for the Ashford portion of the constituency, still happily in this House as the right hon. Member for the new constituency of Ashford (Mr. Deedes) who has for many years served with the greatest distinction and industry the interests of what are now my constituents. If I can approach the standard of service that they have given I shall be doing a very good job. I hope in time that I may aspire to that height.
  My constituency extends over a far wider area than its name might suggest. Although it takes its name from the
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  gracious town of Tunbridge Wells it extends from country villages in the west, like Speldhurst, right over to other villages like Benenden, Sandhurst and Hawkhurst in the east. It contains little industry but much agriculture.
  Agriculture is not to be brought within the ambit of the Bill but I am sure that all hon. Members with a knowledge of agriculture will agree that the problems of the safety, health and welfare of its employees need no less careful scrutiny and care than the problems of the factory worker. I hope that in due course they will receive it.
  I welcome the Bill because it provides an opportunity for Parliament to bring within the ambit of a single piece of legislation all the safety, health and welfare problems of those working in the factories. Those who have had to deal in their private or professional lives with the problems of this nature in industry recognise the jungle into which the law has strayed. An hon. Member opposite has already referred to the standard textbook of Redgrave on the Factory Acts and to Mr. Munkman's work on employer's liability. The editors of those works do their best to lead the way through this jungle, but all who have to deal professionally with these problems will welcome the Bill as a fresh start on integrating all the legislation which will eventually apply, whether immediately under the provisions of the Bill or under regulations made under it.
  I hope that safety committees can become universal. In training lies one of the most fruitful possibilities for reducing the terrible toll of accident and injury which so many hon. Members have mentioned. Statistics are bad enough, but when one has to see the physical injuries that are inflicted in a moment of carelessness and whose consequences can remain with the victim for the rest of his life and perhaps with his family, with terrible financial consequences, one has brought home to one the urgency of the problem.
  It is true that many accidents are caused by negligence or breach of their statutory duty by employers, but one should not suppose that nearly all of them are. Many are caused by a moment's carelessness, or perhaps the taking of a short cut towards the end of a day by a workman who is doing a boring job and who, as the hours have

  1363
  gone by, has become a victim of apathy, has, perhaps, become sleepy and bored.
  I believe that it is in the sector of training that there is the best chance of making workpeople more safety conscious than they are in many cases. Of course it is true that some employers connive at machines being operated with the safety guards not in position, for example. The majority do not, but there are many who do. If greater attention is paid to training in safety matters there will be far fewer workpeople who will want to operate machines in that dangerous condition, notwithstanding that it may be easier to operate them without the safety guards in position.
  I hope, therefore, that great attention will be paid to the provision of safety committees, and to the operating of those committees, so that everyone undergoes training, and that the provision for proper instruction and training which is referred to in Clause 2(2) of the Bill will be part of the responsibility of the safety committee. I mean by that that I hope that it will have a part in devising and providing the training. If these committees can be brought into programmes of training and instruction, that would be a very good thing.
  The second point is that a great deal of attention must be paid to the problem of enforcing the obligations which the Bill lays down, primarily upon the employer but also upon the workman. My experience has been that, while making every allowance for the fact that the Factory Inspectorate is understaffed, the manner in which decisions are taken whether to prosecute in the case of a breach of obligation is in some cases almost capricious. In many cases it appears to have been taken where there has been a lot of publicity, or a very tragic accident and, perhaps, a death, but where the case against the employer on breach of duty has been very thin; whereas in many other cases of flagrant breach, where there can scarcely have been any defence against prosecution, no prosecution has taken place. That is so in many cases that one has come across where warnings have been given and matters have been brought to the attention of employers which fully merited a prosecution. We must have a much tougher standard on the part of an increased and expanded
  1364
  Factory Inspectorate than has been the case for many years past.
  Mention has been made by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, North (Mr. Miscampbell) of a possible change in the law following the report of Lord Pearson's Royal Commission. We may have—I express no view on it at this stage—a system of non-fault liability replacing our present system, in which one has to prove in common law negligence on the part of the employer or breach of statutory duty in order to found a claim for civil liability. If we have a non-fault system of liability as a result of recommendations of Lord Pearson's Commission then all the more will it be necessary for the Factory Inspectorate to take a far tougher line and for there to be more prosecutions in the case of breach; because the discipline and sanction that the employers' liability insurance companies to some extent provide at present will have gone. I hope, therefore, that great attention will be paid to the question of enforcement.
  I should like to pick up a point made by the hon. Member for Hamilton (Mr. Wilson), who drew attention to the words
  "so far as is reasonably practicable"
  where they apply in the clauses at the beginning of the Bill and which lay down the obligations and duties of employers. Taking Clause 2, the hon. Gentleman thought that it would be proper to delete those words so as to make an absolute liability rest upon employers. As I understood it, he applied that to all the early clauses of the Bill where those duties are set out. I can only say that one has to remember that this portion of the Bill is imposing a criminal liability upon employers and not a civil liability. I should be very sorry indeed to see legislation which made the employer strictly liable for any circumstance where it could be shown that the workman was not at the given moment safe or that he did not have risks to his health at any given moment. To impose strict liability would be to make him an insurer, and that seems to be wholly foreign to our concept of criminal law.
  Lastly, I should like to emphasise and support the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, North when he drew attention to Clauses 39 and 41, where the burden of proof whether something is reasonably practicable is

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  laid upon the employer, and then, in Clause 41, a defence is provided for him whereby if he shows that he has exercised "all due diligence" he can avoid conviction. The words "all due diligence" do seem to have the makings of a lawyer's picnic. We are all used to the concept of reasonable care. It is well understood in the courts. It has been developed in a way which takes account of changing standards and problems. The words "all due diligence" pose the question of how much diligence is due. I hope that consideration will be given to amending that phraseology.
  I am sure that much can be done in Committee to improve the Bill. Nevertheless I warmly welcome it. Our industry is the mainstay of our economy and the livelihood of our nation depends upon it. The Bill provides a means of safeguarding more effectively the lives of those who serve industry.
  8.35 p.m.
  Mr. Ted Fletcher: I offer my congratulations to the hon. and learned Member for Royal Tunbridge Wells (Mr. Mayhew) on his maiden speech. No doubt his future contributions will be more controversial but on this occasion he has followed the tradition of the House and made a non-controversial speech on what is practically a non-controversial subject. He has told us about his constituency and has made a thoughtful contribution to our proceedings. I am sure the whole House looks forward to hearing what he will say in the future.
  Like all hon. Members, I welcome the Bill because it will make a most important contribution to the provisions made for the safety and health of people at work. It is by no means perfect, and I hope that there may be some revision in Committee which will improve it. However, its overall value lies in the fact that it co-ordinates, rationalises and makes more flexible much of the existing legislation. Many of the provisions in the Bill have been discussed before. Recommendations have been made such as on the statutory obligation on employers to consult their employees on health and safety matters, which was proposed in a draft parliamentary order as far back as 1927. There have been many other recommendations in the meantime. The last was in a consultative
  1366
  document in 1967, when it was recommended that provision should be made for the revision, harmonisation and unification of existing statutes.
  The value of this and other recommendations will depend on the speed and thoroughness with which they are implemented. Ultimately we can but judge the success of these measures from the statistics on fatal and non-fatal accidents at work. That is why it is so important that we should get these matters right and make the Bill effective. There must therefore be the closest scrutiny of it in Committee.
  There has been reference in the debate to a fact which was mentioned in the first paragraph of the Robens Committee's Report, that over a thousand people are killed in their work every year and about 500,000 suffer from accidents. That, however, is only part of the overall picture. The figures do not tell us that about 5 million or 6 million people—20 per cent. of the country's work force—are outside the scope of any occupational safety and health legislation. Statistics about them are not available, and accidents among that group are additional to the figures we already have.
  The statistics also do not include deaths from prescribed diseases under the National Insurance (Industrial Injuries) Act 1965. The statistics of the Department of Health and Social Security show that awards in benefits for death from prescribed diseases such as pneumoconiosis average about 800 a year. The statistics are misleading because benefits are paid only to dependants, and many hundreds who die from such diseases have no dependants. As a consequence their names are not recorded.
  The Bill's provisions will apply to the mining industry. The statistics of fatal accidents in that industry are alarming. I am glad that my right hon. Friend emphasised the impact that this legislation is likely to have in the mining industry. From 1960 to 1970, 2,147 miners were killed whilst at work. In the same period 9,378 died from diseases associated with their work, such as pneumoconiosis. The bulk of those people were miners.
  In view of the recent dispute in the mining industry, and the inflexible attitude of the Government to the claim

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  of the miners that they be treated as a special case, it is often forgotten that wages are not the only yardstick by which to measure the special nature of the work. Account must also be taken of the conditions of hazard to health and safety in which miners work. In 10 years as many as 11,000 deaths will occur either down the pit or from miners coughing up their lungs due to industrial disease.
  If we estimate that a miner will work for 40 years and project the figures which I have mentioned for that period, 40,000 deaths will arise from the nature of miners' employment in a total labour force of about 250,000. That means that a miner has a one in five chance that he will die because of the nature of his work. The odds are greatly increased when we remember that only half the labour force is employed underground. That is why I welcome the contribution made by my hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton (Mr. Wilson).
  The Minister must pay special attention to legislation affecting the mining industry. The National Union of Mineworkers has fought for 150 years to establish legislation and machinery to deal with the health, welfare and safety of its members. I hope that no provision in the Bill will mean that that long battle to establish those standards has been in vain. The problems of health and safety at work and the need to reduce the number of accidents is so vital and urgent that we must have legislation that will make an effective contribution to safety in the work place. I do not know whether the provisions of the Bill will be effective. No doubt we shall scrutinise them carefully in Committee.
  When the Robens Report was published I disagreed strongly with the suggestion that fundamental improvements in conditions of work could be achieved by the sharing of responsibilities within industry without effective regulation from outside. I am glad that the Government are tightening up such matters. We shall have to go through the Bill carefully to see that the regulations are effective. It seems that the responsibility for reducing the level of industrial accidents must rest primarily with management. That point has been made repeatedly. It is management's overriding responsibility to take
  1368
  every possible step to reduce the number of accidents in the work place.
  We all know that there are unscrupulous employers who try to cut corners, who try to increase production figures by skimping safety arrangements. The Bill will do something to force those employers to toe the line and accept their responsibility. We must also consider the Factory Inspectorate. There is a widespread feeling amongst trade unions and trade unionists that it is on the side of the bosses. I do not agree with that. As a former trade union official, I believe that the inspectors are doing a first-class job.
  Mr. Bob Cryer: Does my hon. Friend accept that the Robens Report statistics showed that each of the 300,000 visits made annually yielded an offence under the 1961 Factories Act, yet only 3.000 prosecutions were brought in 1970? Does not this indicate some degree of dereliction of duty on the part of the Factory Inspectorate?
  Mr. Fletcher: My hon. Friend has anticipated what I was about to say. Although there is that widespread feeling, I believe that the factory inspectors do a first-class job. However, there are not enough of them, and the career structure is such that the best brains are not attracted to the inspectorate. It is essential that there should be more factory inspectors. As my hon. Friend reminded us, only one case in every hundred of the 300,000 inspections was prosecuted. Factory inspectors may tour a factory only once in every three or four years, and that is not enough. Of every 100 lost-time accidents that occurred, the Factory Inspectorate investigated only seven. That is not because of lack of enthusiasm on the part of the inspectorate but because the job is a difficult one and the inspectorate is under-staffed. I hope the Bill will go some way towards rectifying that inadequacy.
  I have a minor criticism concerning the appointment of trade union officers and safety committees. If the Bill is to carry out its intention it will have to be redrafted. Part II of the Employed Persons (Safety) Bill introduced by the Labour Government in February 1970 empowered trade unions to appoint safety representatives in factories with 10 or more employees, and required employers

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  in factories employing 100 or more to set up safety committees if requested to do so by safety representatives. The Bill also defined the functions and qualifications of safety representatives. The Part II provisions were included in the Employment Medical Advisory Service Act. This Bill only goes so far as to give the Secretary of State powers to require the appointment of safety officers in prescribed cases and leaves it to the Secretary of State to make regulations governing the establishment of safety committees. That is where the Bill fails. We should spell out the provisions in more detail, as was done in the 1970 Bill. I hope that in Committee it will be possible to revert to the text of the original Bill, which is far superior.
  I welcome the Bill as an effective step in the right direction. It could be more effective, and it needs a great deal of detailed investigation. It will be on the statute book a long time. Factory legislation is not amended in every Parliament. If, after consulting trade unions and employers' organisations, we pass the Bill, it will be on the statute book for a decade or more. It is, therefore, essential that it should be scrutinised closely in Committee.
  I welcome the Bill. I hope that it will be improved and that it will pass quickly through the House.
  8.50 p.m.
  Mr. Giles Radice: I want to take up the point made about mining by my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mr. Fletcher). When I first came to my constituency, which is a mining constituency, I was told that there were three ways to tell an old miner. First, one looked at his back and saw how misshapen it was. Secondly, one shook him by the hand and found that he had a finger missing. Finally, one listened to his breathing, and could immediately tell that he had a respiratory disease. I discovered other ways in which to tell who were the miners—not least by the warmth and friendliness of their personality. What I have said is surely a clear indication of the hazards in the mining industry.
  I speak as a sponsored member of the National Union of General and Municipal Workers. The House will be aware that my union was the first to gain, in a
  1370
  British court, an award of damages for a man who had contracted industrial deafness. I refer to the famous case of Berry v. Stone Manganese Marine because of its failure to protect Mr. Frank Berry from the noise of his job. Although the damages were far too small, that judgment opened up the whole area to the law.
  I welcome the Bill as a step forward, because it represents a great improvement on the Robens Report. The weakness of that report was that it relied excessively on voluntaryism. Although trade unionists accept the need for codification of the law and for a new central authority, we are totally against this kind of increased role for voluntary codes and the corresponding objection of statutory regulations. A good example of how effective statutory regulations can be at their best is that of the power press regulations. In 1964, a year before those regulations were introduced, there were 498 accidents in that industry; in 1971 there were only 151 accidents. That is far too many, but it shows a radical improvement in the situation. It is not surprising that trade unions are in favour of strong statutory regulations.
  The Bill is an improvement on that which was introduced by the Conservative Government, since it provides for safety committees and safety representatives drawn from the trade unions. We are likely to get effective safety standards at shop floor level only if the trade unions' power and influence is brought to bear directly on employers.
  Labour Members have their worries about the Bill as drafted. It is common ground that the main objectives must be, first, increased safety standards enforceable at criminal law and, secondly, certain civil liability. The general duties laid on employers by the Bill and an improved system of statutory regulations go some way towards these objectives. However, I share the fear of my hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton (Mr. Wilson) that employers may seek to evade their rightful obligations to their employees. Our fear is that despite the improvements in the Bill the employers' liability will be weakened by the spattering of the phrase "so far as is reasonably practicable" throughout the Bill, and that they will act as though the

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  word "reasonable" were synonymous with the phrase "not too expensive" and in that way will continue to evade their responsibilities.
  Will the Minister say how far the general duties laid on employers by the Bill go beyond the common law? One example which frightens my union is the phrase "in so far as reasonably practicable" when used with the phrase in Clause 2(2)(d), "any place of work". This could mean that local authorities will evade their responsibilities for the safety of their own road men and refuse collectors. Since I am on the subject of local authorities, I want to draw attention to Clause 17 and ask whether it is the intention that local authorities should enforce the law in regard to their own employees. I envisage a situation in which a local authority could be judge and jury in its own cause.
  As for the criminal law penalties, like other hon. Members I am worried by the possible smallness of them. We have a maximum fine on summary conviction of only £400, and even on indictment very often judges impose penalties which are not too large. There is also the point that if an employer goes on repeating the offence he is fined only £50 per day. One can envisage a situation where, if an employer thought that it was too expensive to eradicate a safety fault he would be prepared to go on paying a fine and continuing to evade his obligations.
  Disappointment has been expressed about the exemption of agriculture, which is probably one of the most dangerous industries. Its accident rate is high. Agricultural workers suffer from many common industrial hazards such as chest complaints due to bad weather, deafness from the noise of tractors and combines, white finger from vibration, and chemical poisoning, as well as some of their own such as farmer's lung and silo filler's disease. However, the legal machinery for their protection is not so perfect that it deserves exemption. The maximum fine is only £50. There are no safety officers. There are no safety committees. There are very few inspectors—none, I understand, in Scotland.
  There is de facto exemption in that 6 million workers are not covered at all by statutory safety standards. Even under
  1372
  the Bill those workers who are not covered by regulations have no redress at civil law except, of course, their normal common law rights. To cover this, general duties should be enforceable not only in criminal law but in civil law at least till the statutory safety regulations are extended—not that these are perfect in themselves.
  There are general hazards, such as noise, which are not included in safety regulations. Following the Berry case, the Industrial Health Advisory Committee issued an excellent code of practice on noise with a 90 decibel limit. It is an excellent code, but it is not enforceable, and I hope that noise, and other general hazards will be included in the statutory safety regulations.
  The success of the Bill depends partly on effective inspection and, with respect to an overworked and underpaid body of men, their numbers are far too small to do an adequate job. There are probably only 1,000 inspectors. Factories are visited on average only once every four years. I hope to hear from my hon. Friend what he intends to do about inspection.
  I am sure that right hon. and hon. Members on boh sides of the House will agree that we are debating a most important Bill. It is probably one of the most important to have come before the House, especially when one bears in mind the devastation caused by accidents and hazards facing workers. A typical report from the Chief Inspector of Factories will reveal that 1,000 people have died and that 500,000 have been injured. Anything that we can do by legislation to reduce those appalling figures must be welcome, but let us be certain that the legislation really bites.
  8.59 p.m.
  Mr. Churchill: I must congratulate my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Royal Tunbridge Wells (Mr. Mayhew) on an excellent and most inforative maiden speech. I am sure that he carried the whole House with him in the two principal points that he made about the need for safety training and for a more uniform application of the safety regulations. We look forward to hearing from my hon. and learned Friend on many more occasions.

  1373
  The hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. Johnson) spoke of the damage that can be caused to an individual by what he called "the speech interference level".
  I hope that his hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) will read the relevant part of the hon. Gentleman's speech.
  Much progress has been made in health and safety at work since the days to which the Secretary of State referred with such passion and, I am bound to say, such irrelevance. The report which he read in extenso was dated 1819. Nevertheless, the seriousness of the situation today may be judged by the figure of 23 million lost days as a result of injury at work, 500,000 injured, and the terrible toll of 1,000 killed in a year, and I welcome the Secretary of State's promptness in bringing forward this legislation, which he inherited from his predecessor in the Conservative Government. The major aspects of the Bill command widespread support on both sides of the House.
  The Bill imposes all sorts of duties on employers, employees, on trade unions and on the Health and Safety Commission and Executive, and rightly so, but it does not say much about the duties of the Secretary of State himself. The right hon. Gentleman would do well to have another look at this aspect of the Bill. Lord Robens' report referred to the inadequacy of machinery for gathering and disseminating information on health hazards and the inadequacy of research facilities currently devoted to this aspect.
  Much has been said in the debate about safety in mines, and that is a very important aspect, but there are other vital matters, as I am sure hon. Members will recognise. Attention has been given in recent years to reducing pollution of the atmosphere as it affects the ordinary citizen. Great strides have been made in this matter. The Bill deals with the health and safety of people at their place of work. There is growing public awareness and concern about the long-term health hazards which face workers in many industries. The obvious ones which spring to mind are pneumoconiosis, asbestosis and radiation hazards. It is vital that employees be assured that not only their employers but also the
  1374
  Government are doing everything possible to ensure their safety at their places of employment.
  In chemicals the situation is particularly difficult because there are an estimated 10,000 new chemical products put into production each year. Some of these chemicals have cancer-producing propensities, and it is of the utmost importance that early warning should be given of any health hazards that might arise. What we are concerned about is the health hazards not so much in 1974 as in the year 2000. It is vital that we should take legislative measures to guard against future health hazards.
  The chemical industry has an excellent safety record, but I hope that, while laying duties on everybody else, the Secretary of State will satisfy himself that his own and the Government's role are fully covered. Some days ago a United States Department of Labour report was published drawing attention to a recent discovery of a rare liver cancer among workers exposed to vinyl chloride. That has been linked to at least a dozen cases of cancer of the liver. I should appreciate an assurance that this exposure of chemical workers to vinyl chloride will be investigated with the utmost urgency so that workers may be assured that their safety is not at risk. May we also have an assurance that more money will be spent on research in this area, and that there will be prompt monitoring of such reports as may arise in other countries, so that benefit may be derived for our own workers?
  In the minute or two remaining I would ask the Under-Secretary to reconsider Clause 2(4), which requires only recognised trade unions to elect safety representatives. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that many factories have works councils with safety representatives elected by the employees. In many instances it is not a predominantly trade union factory. It would be wrong, and objectionable to hundreds of my constituents—I speak also for many thousands elsewhere in the country—if existing representatives of employees who have been handling this aspect should be prevented by this legislation from carrying on their work. It is wholly right that the union should make the appointment

  1375
  in certain fields such as the mining industry in which the union is a major part of the industry, but where there is no major union representations it should be left to the employees. I should welcome an assurance from the hon. Gentleman that this matter will be dealt with. That provision smacks of a political sop to a vested interest. It will need to be amended in Committee. If it is not done by the Government, we on this side shall have to see that it is amended.
  9.6 p.m.
  Mr. David Madel: It is my pleasant duty to congratulate my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Royal Tunbridge Wells (Mr. Mayhew) on his excellent and informative maiden speech. I was particularly glad that he stressed the need not to slacken in any way the efforts to improve safety in agriculture. Later in my speech, I shall say more about the exclusion of agriculture from the Bill.
  My hon. and learned Friend's predecessor, Richard Hornby, often spoke on industrial relations, and my hon. and learned Friend has certainly lived up to Richard Hornby's high standard when speaking in this House. We welcome him here and look forward to further contributions from him on this topic. As many Members have said, the House of Commons has not spent as much time as it should on discussing industrial safety, and I am sure that there will be plenty of opportunities for my hon. and learned Friend to make further contributions to our debates.
  It must be a great pleasure for the hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. Walker) to wind up the debate as Under-Secretary of State for Employment. Many were the times, when we were in Government, that he asked whether the Government had any plans to introduce a Bill on health and safety at work. I know how frustrated he must have felt when the answer was, "Not next week, Sir". We look forward to his speech because many varied questions have been raised, especially on the technical matters of the Bill, and we on the Opposition side hope to help him get the Bill on the statute book as quickly as possible.
  Many hon. Members have rightly mentioned the number of people killed or injured at work. They have mentioned,
  1376
  too, the increasing number of new industrial processes which may have delayed effects on health, about which we do not know much now but on which in two or three years, evidence comes forward showing that a new illness has been contracted as a result of a certain process at a particular factory.
  I want to emphasise, too, the side effects of industrial injury and ill health caused by work—the shortened life, the loss of income, the domestic difficulties and the effect on children. These side effects must never be forgotten when one is considering the important matter of industrial health and safety. The new processes, substances and techniques constantly coming into play in industry demand big improvements in the precautions which must be taken to prevent injury and disease.
  Many speakers mentioned deafness, and some observed that it was still not classified as an industrial disease. It is probably on the low side to estimate that half a million workers per year are exposed to noise levels for a length of time that can place their hearing at risk.
  Mention was also made of mental illness as a result of work. This is a subject about which we know all too little and about which we must hasten to learn more when the Health and Safety Commission and Executive get to work.
  May I ask a few questions about the coverage of the Bill? I hope that I am right in saying that hospital workers and deep-sea fishermen will be covered. I hope that the Minister will say that educational establishments—universities and technical colleges—will be included. One thinks particularly about conditions and accidents that have occurred from time to time in university laboratories and technical institutes.
  Naturally, hon. Members have mentioned those covered by the present safety regulations, those working in shops and railways, and those covered by the Factories Acts, who will now all be brought in. Schedule 1 shows how necessary legislation was with the vast mass of law and the amendments that we have had over the past 100 years.
  I turn to Clause 3(1) and (2)—the duty of employers to take action to avoid

  1377
  injuring people not necessarily working in their factory, but perhaps living nearby, and one thinks particularly of the danger of toxic fumes and chemicals from a factory. To begin with there will be some difficulty of enforcement as the new commission gets to work—I do not say for ever, but to begin with. Will it be able to let big industry look after its own safety problems and concentrate more on the medium and smaller-sized firms which may be involved in the process of producing chemicals and, as a result of the byproducts and the fumes from the factory, may need scrutiny from the commission.
  In Clause 5(4)(c) there is a hint of the importance of the local authorities and what they have to do in conjunction with firms in informing the public of dangers from certain processes. Chapter 8 of the Robens Report laid great emphasis on the rôle of local authorities, and now that local government has been reformed we look to the new authorities to play a vigorous rôle in the enforcement of the Bill.
  Clauses 9 and 10 are very much the heart of the Bill whereby the setting up of the commission and the executive is to take place. It will be very important for the commission and the executive to see that the standards maintained by good firms are extended everywhere. Clause 9(3) refers to the consultation that the Secretary of State may have before appointing people to the commission. One hopes that included on the commission will be a physician and an environmental scientist. One hopes, too, that the consultation will include much discussion with professional bodies and possibly with the consumer councils. Perhaps we shall hear more about this in Committee, but I feel that it will be important to have both physicians and environmental scientists playing a part in the commission.
  Clause 10(2)(b) underlines the importance of independent research being undertaken. Many speakers have mentioned this, and one assumes that the commission and the executive will not necessarily be taking advice in this country but commissioning research from overseas. Mention has been made of the United States and the efforts being made there to improve health and safety. When
  1378
  such independent research is undertaken, it is essential that it be published, and also that employees have access to the publication of that independent research.
  Clause 10(2)(c) refers to getting information across to the public in an intelligible form. I hope that a shortened version of some of the information will be given to children in their last year at school. In view of the raising of the school leaving age, the many hazards to which people are exposed when they first go into industry and the somewhat careless attitude which sometimes accompanies youth when taking their first job, I think that there is a part to be played in getting a shortened version of the information from the commission to them in their last year at school.
  Clauses 26 and 27 will prove interesting in Committee, not least because what they provide regarding disclosure and withholding of information may come into collision—or part collision—with the Protection of the Environment Act 1973. We cannot go into detail on this matter on Second Reading, but it has been suggested that the disclosure and publication of information as provided for in these clauses may get us into difficulty with that Act. We shall want to look further at that in Committee.
  I move now to Clause 55, and the Employment Medical Advisory Service. Subsection (2) concerns the relationship of occupational health to the National Health Service. One wonders whether there is a case for transferring the Employment Medical Advisory Service to the Ministry of Health. As I understand it, this service is currently using National Health Service laboratories for research. The question has been asked whether it is right that this should now be under the Department of Employment. Medicine itself should not be isolated, and one wonders whether the Employment Medical Advisory Service may be a little out of touch with those who speak its language. That, too, is something we can discuss further in Committee.
  The Bill does not mention the health records of employees. Naturally, one must respect confidentiality here, but it will be important for employers to keep records of who did what in a particular factory, and where and when, because such information on the conditions of

  1379
  work may well provide a clue as to how an illness was contracted.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Stretford (Mr. Churchill) mentioned the disease which may have been caused to people working in the vinyl chloride process in the United States. I have looked into that question and the efforts which have been made in the United States, and I am impressed by the speed with which the various organisations and authorities have moved to trace the incidence of this disease, and also to trace people who originally worked in that factory but later moved to another part of the country. Therefore, I feel that it may be helpful if health records of employees are kept, although, of course, I accept that confidentiality must be respected.
  We welcome Clause 59, which is an addition to the Bill. There is to be an annual report to the Secretary of State for Employment on the work of the Employment Medical Advisory Service, indicating that there will be at least one debate each year in Parliament, showing that Parliament does have concern for these matters, and giving Members of Parliament another chance to make a contribution from their practical experience in their constituencies on these matters. It will also give us an annual chance, or perhaps more than one, to make suggestions about the way in which the Employment Medical Advisory Service might be improved.
  I was particularly interested in the contribution of my hon. Friend the Member for Melton (Mr. Latham) on the problems of the construction industry. Special attention is needed here, but we must emphasise that legislation and the commission will not be able to do it all and will not necessarily be able, on their own, to bring about the improvement in safety in this industry that is needed. My hon. Friend referred to the joint regulatory procedures, the films being shown on site and the importance of education in the industry. We endorse this and hope that improvements will come about.
  On the question of training and education, I hope that the health and safety committees and the people who will serve on them will be able to go on courses provided by the executive when it is set up. It is important that those who are
  1380
  to be on the safety committees should have had some training and some discussion with people from other industries as to the sort of work they w ill do. I hope, therefore, that the executive will be empowered to organise courses for people who will be serving on the safety committees.
  There is a need for the commission and executive to have as full a coverage of industry as possible. I refer again to the Employment Medical Advisory Service and Clause 55(1)(b). This refers to the giving of information to employers about health and safety at work by the service.
  On trading estates there is often a group medical service. I believe that the problem of the Employment Medical Advisory Service will be how it is to get its information to smaller firms that are isolated in rural areas. We must ensure that the regulations are properly enforced throughout the country and that the information is got across to everyone, particularly those who work in smaller firms, but not necessarily on a trading estate and having the advantage of a group medical service.
  On the question of the commission's relationship with Parliament, the commission will, of course, give the Secretary of State all the answers to the many questions that are raised in Parliament about its work. As we are moving into a new sphere, however, I wonder whether we might for a short time need to have a Select Committee on health and safety at work. I think we might consider that, because it would give Members a chance to question the commission direct and make suggestions about the way in which it might improve its work. It would give the House an opportunity to deal directly with those who are to be charged with ensuring that the Bill is properly implemented throughout the country.
  Many hon. Members discussed agriculture. I realise that our Bill in the last Parliament excluded agriculture, and, therefore I could tell the hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr. Walker) that we were all poised to ask our own Front Bench the same question that we are all asking the hon. Gentleman—why has agriculture been excluded from the Bill?
  I wish to say a little about noise. Are new regulations about noise to be produced? It is a question not only of noise in factories, but of intermittent noise in

  1381
  offices, as mentioned by the hon. Member for Derby, South (Mr. Johnson). This problem has long been under-estimated, and one wonders whether the Government are about to produce fresh regulations about noise. Are they planning a code of practice, specifying measures that should be included at the design stage to control noise from new machines? The health and safety committees have much to do about noise.
  Of course one can do something about reducing the danger from noise by a certain amount of job rotation, and by moving people round in a factory, but these are uncharted seas. I do not say that the health and safety committees can do everything, but one wants to know whether more will be done on design and the control of noise from new machines.
  The hon. Member for Woolwich, East (Mr. Mayhew) mentioned mental health at work. It is mentioned in Clause 53. I take this new legislation to cover mental health as well as physical hazards at work. I feel that it will be open to the commission to make recommendations that hours of work and overtime be sharply reduced in certain continuous process industries. As the commission builds up its research and knowledge, I see nothing in the Bill to prevent it from being able to make such recommendations.
  It is a new field, I agree, and much medical knowledge will have to be gained, but I do not think that the Bill excludes such research, and one hopes from the figures that the hon. Member gave and from information from comparable industrial countries that we are only at the beginning of our understanding of the amount of mental illness caused by work, especially as so many jobs are continuous process jobs with little chance of variation.
  I expect the commission to make recommendations about the effect of shift work. As industrial production and opportunities for expansion in trade pick up, there will be a demand for more shift work. This is also a problem about which I hope the commission will be able to help both sides of industry.
  We welcome the Bill. The co-operation involved on the health and safety committees will bring about the greater participation that is vital to industry. But
  1382
  speed is essential, and the sooner the commission and the executive can get to work, the better.
  The human reason, of course, is the effect that work is having on many people. We have often assumed that accidents and illness have very little to do with work. But on the question of industrial peace and harmony in industrial relations, we see this Bill as a stepping stone to greater industrial peace. After all, there cannot be and should not be, a classic, old-fashioned management-union row about this vital aspect of industry, namely, health and safety. We give this Bill a welcome.
  9.25 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Harold Walker): In opening the debate my right hon. Friend bestowed upon me the accolade of expert on this subject. I must have blushed very deeply. Let me immediately disclaim any such honour. Yesterday I told my secretary my definition of an expert, pointing out to him that the word had two syllables, the first of which is "ex" meaning an unknown quantity, and the second is "spurt", which means a drip under pressure.
  I apologise to the hon. and learned Member for Royal Tunbridge Wells (Mr. Mayhew). During one of my brief absences from the Front Bench I had the misfortune to miss his maiden speech. But my hon. Friend who deputised for me left me an impressive account of his performance. He said that he spoke with confidence and compassion; he emulated the Secretary of State in speaking virtually without notes; he spoke knowledgeably and sincerely and with the objectivity expected of a maiden speech. This may be expected to be a feature of his future contributions, to which we shall look forward. I am sure that that is an accurate description. I welcome the hon. and learned Gentleman to our discussions and hope that we hear from him on this subject in future.
  Equally, I congratulate the hon. Member for Bedfordshire, South (Mr. Madel) on his maiden speech from the Dispatch Box. He would, of course, expect me to say that I look forward to hearing him speaking again on many future occasions. He left me a great many questions to answer. Some I may be able to

  1383
  answer, but he would not expect me to answer them all. He rattled off a great many points, proving that he had done his homework with great thoroughness, but I am sure that he does not expect me to answer all his comments in the course of this debate.
  It gives me great personal satisfaction to have the opportunity to wind up the debate. I feel that I am resuming an old association with this subject. As the hon. Member for Carlton (Mr. Holland) pointed out, he and I and several other hon. Members have been, if not all the way round this course, at least through the starting gate more than once. Let us hope that this time we shall get it to the winning post.
  I am grateful to right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House for the friendly reception that they have given to this measure. I am particularly grateful to the right hon. Member for Penrith and the Border (Mr. Whitelaw) for his particularly helpful attitude. We appreciate his promise of a fair wind. We also understand and appreciate the strong note of reservation that he and other hon. Members expressed. No doubt we shall refer to these matters in Committee.
  I want to add to what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment said about the safety representation provisions. However, before reaching that point, I should like to try to deal with some of the many points that have been made in the debate which have set me a most formidable task.
  I am grateful to the hon. Member for Melton (Mr. Latham), who kindly suggested that I might write to him about the matters that he raised on the building regulations. I have the answers here, but, rather than read out from these typewritten notes that have been given to me. I will certainly write to him. The particular matters raised by the hon. Gentleman concern Part III, Clauses 62(3) and 68(5).
  My hon. Friend the Member for Houghton-le-Spring (Mr. Urwin) also referred to the building regulations. We in the Department of Employment and the Department of the Environment see an effective building regulations system as an essential corollary to the rôle of the
  1384
  Health and Safety Commission. The regulations will continue to be a separate system and will be the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment. However, it is widely recognised that an updating of the regulations is overdue. Indeed, the idea of updating them has been canvassed for about 10 years.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Houghton-le-Spring and other hon. Members referred to building research. My Department has its own extensive research facilities. It has a laboratory at Cricklewood where, amongst other things, it undertakes research into dust-caused diseases and such matters. If hon. Members care to see what is being done at Cricklewood I should be delighted to arrange a visit. I extend an open invitation to my hon. Friend the Member for Houghton-le-Spring and to any other hon. Member who may wish to see the research facilities at Cricklewood.
  The hon. Member for Bedfordshire, South referred to the Department of Health and Social Security laboratory. I have already made the point that we have our own laboratory, but to some extent we also have access to and joint use of the DHSS laboratory.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Houghton-le-Spring referred to the Building Research Centre. We have access to its resources and are able to undertake joint activities with it. I am glad that he brought this matter to my attention in addition to the Construction Industry Training Board at Bircham Newton. He will be pleased to know that I am currently arranging a visit to Bircham Newton.
  Many hon. Members referred to the issue of civil liability. The whole subject of civil liability, claims for damages and compensation for personal injuries is at present under review by the Royal Commission headed by Lord Pearson. Largely for this reason the Bill provides for the present position to be left undisturbed as far as possible, until we have the report and recommendations of Lord Pearson.
  The existing provisions in those Acts affected by the Bill—listed in Schedule I—will continue to give the same rights of action as at present, but new general

  1385
  duties laid down in the Bill will not of themselves give rise, or be capable of giving rise, to civil actions. But the new regulations which will be made under the provisions of the Bill will be actionable unless they state otherwise. It is the intention to preserve broadly the present position—that is, if a regulation which is being replaced is not actionable, the new regulation will not be actionable, but each new regulation will need to be considered on its merits to determine the civil liability position.
  The hon. Member for Blackpool, North (Mr. Miscampbell) referred specifically to Clause 41 and seemed to think—I am in no way critical towards him on this—that the point in it was a novel or new introduction. I am glad that he now shakes his head. I am sure he knows that this provision is in-built into several existing Acts—for example, part of the Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act embodies almost exactly the same form of words—and the same applies to the Factories Acts. We would no doubt find a similar situation in other Acts.
  One of the main points raised in the debate, by several hon. Members from both sides, was about the exclusion of agriculture, but I wish to make clear that agriculture is not excluded from the provisions of the Bill. The general duties which are laid down apply equally to agriculture as to everything else. Equally, the general regulations to be formulated by the commission will be applicable to agriculture in the same way as to other industries.
  That is the position on the general regulations. The only regulations which would not be dealt with in this way would be those applying specifically and solely to agriculture. The agricultural inspectorate will in future be the responsibility of the Ministry of Agriculture, as is the case now, and not of the Health and Safety Commission. It is argued that agriculture consists mainly of small workplaces, small farms, widely scattered throughout the country and that the present inspectorate, which inspects on matters of safety, combines this responsibility for health and safety with many other agricultural duties.
  If we were to seek to establish a purely agricultural safety inspectorate we would have a difficulty over resources and an
  1386
  inability to combine the functions as we do now, and we would find farms being inspected by people who had responsibility to two masters. They would have responsibility for purely agricultural matters as distinct from health and safety matters, and inspectors dealing with these would report to the Minister of Agriculture. Those hypothetically working under the commission would report to the commission and via it to the Secretary of State.
  It has therefore been decided that it would be wise for the Minister of Agriculture to continue to be responsible in future for agriculture inspectors dealing with health and safety, as at present, and for laying down those safety requirements which deal purely with agricultural matters. I wish to make clear that there is a whole range of activities within the broad spectrum of agriculture which are the subject of regulations made under the Factories Act. One thinks immediately of frozen vegetable factories and sugar beet factories, which, although part of the broad agricultural spectrum, are nevertheless factory processes and, therefore, subject to the Factories Acts and the inspection of the Factory Inspectorate.
  Mr. Holland: Clause 15 gives the impression that general codes of practice issued by the commission will not apply to exclusively agricultural matters. This is what concerns many of us.
  Mr. Walker: The clause says:
  "except as regards matters relating exclusively to agricultural operations."
  This means that when the commission makes a regulation dealing with a process or activity outside agriculture as well as within it, the general regulation will apply equally to agriculture. Tractors, for example, are used on building sites and elsewhere as well as for agriculture, and any general regulations will apply to tractors, whether used on farms or anywhere else.
  Another major issue with which my right hon. Friend dealt with some force and at some length was the inclusion of miners. Despite what he said, a number of hon. Members expressed anxiety. When the Robens Committee reported I expressed similar views with equal or greater vigour. When I arrived in the Department I found that officials had a copy of the speech that I had delivered

  1387
  18 months before to the Institute of Industrial Safety Officers, in which I expressed precisely the same views. But that was in the immediate post-Robens publication situation, which was very different from the situation that emerged from the last Government's consultative document and the provisions of this Bill.
  The fear has been expressed that, following the recommendations of the report, there would be a regression from the rigorous statutory requirements of the mining industry and that codes of practice would be substituted for them. Miners' representatives were equally concerned that the special identity of the mines inspectorate might be diluted by its incorporation into a general inspectorate. My right hon. Friend made it clear that both these fears are ill-founded. He said, and I repeat, that there is no intention of regressing from or withdrawing the present statutory requirements embodied in the Mines and Quarries Acts and related regulations. They will continue in force until it is deemed expedient by the commission, in the fullest consultation with the National Union of Mineworkers and other unions and interested bodies in the industry, to introduce regulations which we believe would only strengthen and improve the present position.
  As to the inspectorate, my right hon. Friend said, and I repeat, that, as was envisaged by Robens, within the unified inspectorate there will be continued specialisation. Certainly the mines inspectorate will continue as a separate specialist inspectorate with its own Chief Inspector of Mines responsible directly to the Health and Safety Executive.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Hamilton (Mr. Wilson) asked whether there would be some intervening level of authority to whom the Chief Inspector would be responsible. This will certainly not be the case. As is the position at present where the Chief Inspector of Mines reports through his senior Civil Service hierarchy to the Minister, so in future will the general inspector be directly responsible to the executive agency of the commission and thus to the commission.
  I should like to quote the contents of the letter which my right hon. Friend the
  1388
  Secretary of State sent to the National Union of Mineworkers following his meeting with it last week. My right hon. Friend undertook to give assurances
  "on two matters which you regarded as being of crucial importance. The first of these concerned the statutory standards of protection for mineworkers which are at present laid down in the Mines and Quarries Acts, and in their supporting regulations. As I explained, the Bill repeals none of this legislation. All of the present statutory standards of protection will remain in force until replaced by equally or more effective provisions, which would be made under the wide regulation-making poser contained in the Bill. The object of any such revised provisions would be to seek improvements—which indeed is the object of the Bill as a whole.
  Clause 50 of the Bill puts on the Health and Safety Commission a statutory obligation to consult all appropriate bodies before bringing forward any proposals for new or revised regulations. Clearly, the mining unions and the mining industry as a whole will be consulted about any proposals which affect the mining industry. The Bill also gives the Secretary of State a power of direction over the Commission, and this could be used, if necessary, to ensure that the statutory obligation to consult was fully complied with.
  Finally, the Commission itself has no power to make regulations, as distinct from proposing them."
  That is a very important point.
  "All regulations under the new Act will be laid before Parliament by the Secretary of State in the usual way. Before doing so he is (Clause 50 of the Bill) empowered to modify any proposals that the Commission may put to him. I hope you will agree that this ensures full control over the process of replacing existing statutory provisions, whether in mines safety legislation or in any other safety and health legislation with which the Bill is concerned.
  Your second main point concerned the position of the mines inspectorate. The Bill makes the Health and Safety Commission and its Executive responsible for administering the safety and health legislation, and the existing inspectorates of mines, nuclear installations, explosives, factories and alkali works will be drawn together within the Executive. But there is no intention of breaking up existing specialist teams. The new organisation will have within it expertise over the whole range of safety and health problems and a high degree of a specialisation will clearly be essential. The mines inspectors will form a specialised branch of the new organisation, and mines will continue to be inspected by specialists with the appropriate mining experience and qualifications. The head of this Branch (the Chief Inspector of Mines) will be professionally responsible for the work of the mines specialists, and he will be part of the top management structure."
  The letter concludes by saying:
  "I hope that these assurances help you."

  1389
  Those assurances certainly swept away any kind of anxieties which I originally felt when the Robens Report was first published. Indeed, the form that we now have in the Bill gives the assurances that the NUM and its members seek. I urge my hon. Friends who have expressed these anxieties to consider very carefully the words that I have used and those which we have sent to the trade unions.
  I turn to some of the other points which have been raised. I shall try to deal with them in the very limited time that I have left.
  Questions have been asked about safety training. Clause 2 places employers under a duty to provide their employees with instruction and training so as to ensure their health and safety at work. Equally, Clause 10 places the commission under a duty to make arrangements for the provision of training and to encourage others to provide training in connection with the general purposes of the Bill. Paragraph 14 of Schedule 3 specifies that health and safety regulations made under Clause 14 may impose requirements with respect to the instruction, training and supervision of persons at work.
  I turn quickly to another area raised by the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Money) and another Conservative hon. Member. That was concerning the provision in company annual reports and statements about their health and safety arrangements and performance. That is a very desirable thing but the hon. Member will recognise, as the former Government did, that perhaps the best way to deal with the matter is through company law. I hope we shall have the opportunity in the lifetime of this Parliament to bring forward company law reform which will include such a provision.
  A number of hon. Members expressed concern about noise and the views of the Robens Committee on the subject. Of course, the regulation-making powers in the Bill are wide enough to enable regulations to be made to deal with the subject. At the present time there are no specific proposals to deal with noise, with one exception. It may be within the knowledge of some hon. Members that the Woodworking Machinery Regulations, which were originally made in 1922, are the subject of updating and I hope that
  1390
  before long we shall approve and publish the new regulations. It may please some hon. Members to know that we are proposing changes in that connection.
  Mr. Michael Latham: Will the Minister look at Part III of the previous Government's Protection of the Environment Bill, which had a section dealing with noise? Surely that could be reintroduced at an early date.
  Mr. Walker: The hon. Member is referring to the Bill which was before the other place on Dissolution. That is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment and not for me. But we shall certainly look at the point and I hope that we shall before long introduce similar if not the same legislation.
  The hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Smith) raised a number of points and I hope he will forgive me if I rush through them. He asked why the National Radiological Protection Board is not within the unified inspectorate. That board has a number of responsibilities outside the scope of health and safety at work and for that reason the hon. Member's suggestion was deemed inappropriate. Nevertheless it was regarded as appropriate to spell out in Clause 76 the special relationship there will be between the Commission and the unified inspectorate on the one hand and this board on the other. He asked about the Nuclear Installations Inspectorate. I can tell him that that is in.
  I was asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Stott) about the penalties. He expressed concern, a concern which I would have shared had he been correct. The Bill spells out that on summary conviction the maximum fine will be £400 and that is laid down by the Magistrates' Courts Act which imposes limits that we may apply on summary conviction. I hope that he will look carefully at the clause, however, which makes quite clear that the commission, being the prosecuting agency, or the Directorate of Public Prosecutions, can choose, if it wishes, to go to a higher court to secure a higher penalty. The clause leaves the penalty on indictment open-ended. His hope that some day a major offender would be facing a penalty of £100,000—and he referred to sequestration—may be realised in that we may

  1391
  have provided the means in the Bill. Some big multinational corporation may therefore have to meet the penalty it would deserve.
  I was asked about the staffing of the inspectorate in the future and hopes were expressed that we would be extending it. I have a more detailed breakdown but it may be sufficient to say that the additional 1,400 staff referred to in the Bill are comprised as follows: there will during the period required to bring the Bill into full effect be an increase in local authority staff of 350; the commission, executive and administrative staff will be 435; the technical support staff for the inspectors' and the Employment Medical Advisory Service will be 205; the inspectorate and additional doctors total 410. That will represent an increase in the number of factory inspectors of 330, which is an increase of just under 50 per cent. on the present staff levels. It also spells out a substantial increase in the full-time medical staff of the Employment Medical Advisory Service.
  I turn now to the provision of workers' safety representatives and the contents of Clause 2. I shall make a number of points which will indicate not only why we believe that the words are essential but why we have chosen the form of words that appears in the Bill. The first and most obvious point is that they are not only consistent with what we said repeatedly when in Opposition, and particularly in a succession of Private Members' Bills that were widely supported by us when in opposition, but they closely follow the formula of the Bill which was introduced by the previous Labour Government, which was drafted in the context of the Factories Acts.
  The measure before the House goes much wider than previous measures because it applies to all work situations. We have had to reformulate the proposals so that they can be adapted to the many and differing kinds of situation which apply. The much wider scope for applying the principle of workers' safety representation is a welcome improvement and a strengthening not only of the 1974 Bill, which was presented by the previous Conservative Government, but of the Bill which was
  1392
  presented by the previous Labour Government. The provision for the Secretary of State to make regulations gives the flexibility which is necessary and to which attention has been drawn.
  The choice of the phrase "recognised trade unions" is directly in line with the 1970 Bill. That was not opposed by the Conservative Opposition. I recognise that they expressed reservations at the time. When we refer to recognised trade unions we are presuming the repeal of the Industrial Relations Act. Hon. Members will be aware that my right hon. Friend will soon be introducing a measure to achieve that objective. The House can take our reference to recognised trade unions in the sense of pre or post Industrial Relations Act.
  The Bill give additional rights to trade unions and their members. There is nothing in our proposals that precludes any voluntary arrangements being entered into in circumstances in which the regulations may not apply. Indeed, they do not preclude voluntary arrangements which go beyond the statutory regulations.
  Sir Paul Bryan: I take it that the Secretary of State for Employment does not know much about industry because he comes from Hampstead, but the Minister, I believe, comes from Manchester. He will know about the textile industry of the West Riding of Yorkshire and of Lancashire. I believe that 50 per cent. of the workers in the textile industry do not belong to unions. Will the hon. Gentleman tell us how they come into the picture?
  Mr. Walker: If the hon. Gentleman will allow me to make my speech in my own way, he will find that I have anticipated his point. He has introduced the only sour note which we have had in this debate. I know that there is anxiety about the use of the word "recognised". We have carefully considered the difficulties that may arise. However, I believe that they are more than outweighed by the industrial relations problems that might result from the omission of that word. For example, there are the problems of the breakaway unions that might use this Bill as a lever to seek a recognition that in turn might have disruptive consequences.

  1393
  This is an objective matter, based on my understanding of the industrial relations situation. I ask the Opposition to bear in mind the difficulties that could arise from establishing non-union consultative arrangements in a union plant. Some of us in the engineering industry have had experience of the joint consultative committees which were established during the war and the way in which they conflicted with the works committees which were established under the procedure arrangements of the industry.
  I believe that all parties have recently expressed their belief in the need for strong trade unions. This is another way in which we can strengthen and stimulate them in pursuit of a bona fide recognition. Perhaps an overwhelming reason for the Bill to include the words "recognised trade unions" is that the need has been expressed for the trade unions to be fully involved in these matters at national and local level. The added responsibilities that this will place on the unions and their members will have a beneficial effect on health and safety at work.
  Worker participation is apparently something in which we all believe. I cannot think of a better starting point for such participation than this, where the livelihood and well being of the worker and his family are directly at stake.
  When the Robens Committee submitted its report in 1972 it was generally favourably received. But many, including myself, took a different and critical view. Certainly, there were many proposals that deserved, and received, almost universal support. These included the form and scope of new legislation on health and safety, the unification of the inspectorates, the new improvement and prohibition notices and a range of other matters which were warmly welcomed. But the weakness in the Robens recommendation on joint consultation on safety matters was only one of several that were less enthusiastically received.
  Above all, there was anxiety and apprehension about the general philosophy of the report which, to many, seemed to call for a regression from rigorous statutory responsibilities firmly enforced. The Robens message seemed to be too permissive for some of us to stomach, and we said so, loud and clear. We are
  1394
  glad that the previous Government resisted the message in their consultative document, and in the Bill which was published before the Dissolution it was obvious that they shared our view. All that remained when we took office was for us to eliminate this last remaining weakness in the previous Government's Bill. We have now remedied it by our proposal for trade union safety representatives and safety committees.
  I am confident that when it is enacted the Bill will be the most significant advance in health and safety at work since Shaftesburys Act of 1833. It is a major step forward in our social history, and I am happy to have the opportunity of commending it to the House.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill accordingly read a Second time.
  Bill committed to a Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 40 (Committal of Bills).

  HEALTH AND SAFETY AT WORK ETC. BILL

    HEALTH AND SAFETY AT WORK ETC. [MONEY]
    Queen's Recommendation having been signified—
    Resolved,
    That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make further provision for securing the health, safety and welfare of persons at work, for protecting others against risks to health or safety in connection with the activities of persons at work, for controlling the keeping and use and preventing the unlawful acquisition, possession and use of dangerous substances, and for controlling certain emissions into the atmosphere, to make further provision with respect to the employment medical advisory service, and to amend the law relating to building regulations and the Building (Scotland) Act 1959, it is expedient to authorize—
    (1) the payment out of money provided by Parliament of—

    (a) any expenses incurred by a Minister of the Crown or government department for the purposes of the said Act of the present Session; and

    (b) any increase attributable to the provisions of that Act in the sums payable under any other Act out of money so provided:

    (2) the payment into the Consolidated Fund of any sums received by a Minister of the Crown or government department by virtue of the said Act of the present Session. —[Mr. Harold Walker.]

HOUSING CORPORATION
10.0 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Gerald Kaufman): I beg to move,
That the Housing Corporation Advances (Increase of Limit) Order 1974, a draft of which was laid before this House on 21st March, be approved.
The draft Order is quite simple. It enables the Secretary of State for the Environment and the Secretaries of State for Scotland and Wales between them to lend up to a further £150 million to the Housing Corporation. The loans are made from the National Loans Fund, normally for 40 years, and are repayable with interest over that period. The power to lend this further amount is permissive. As is common form for the other nationalised industries and public authorities, the corporation will have no automatic right to this further £150 million, and will remain subject to the normal annual public expenditure limitations imposed on them by the Secretaries of State.
As the House knows, the Housing Corporation was set up under Part 1 of the Housing Act 1964 to foster the building of dwellings for rent by non-profit making housing societies. In essence the corporation was intended to be primarily an institution for channelling public capital to housing societies, much as building societies provide private capital to owner-occupiers. It was hoped that building societies would lend at least two-thirds of the cost of housing societies' schemes. As it turned out, their contribution has more normally—and certainly since 1970 —not exceeded half.
The Housing Act 1964, which established the Housing Corporation, authorised lending to the corporation of an initial £50 million. It also provided for further amounts to be authorised by an order or a series of orders up to a total ceiling of £100 million. Orders of this kind were made in 1969 and in 1971. The ceiling figures in the 1964 Act were then raised in Section 77 of the Housing Finance Act 1972 to £150 million, further increasable by order to £300 million. This latest order has the effect of raising the corporation's borrowing limit from £150
1396
million to the £300 million maximum allowed for in the Housing Finance Act. It was one of the few beneficial provisions of that Act, most of which is now due for the knacker's yard.
In addition to raising the ceiling in advance Section 77 of the Housing Finance Act also enabled the Housing Corporation to lend to a much wider range of housing associations than the housing societies to which they had been restricted by the 1964 Act. These associations were tied by the Housing Finance Act to letting unfurnished accommodation at no more than fair rents, and the associations are now stuck with the soubriquet of "fair rent associations".
At 31st March, the corporation had borrowed £137 million of the £150 million which it may be lent under the 1964 Act as amended by the 1972 Act. At the present rate of lending, the limit of £150 million will be reached by the end of this month. Further lending on schemes already approved, without any new schemes at all, could involve the Corporation in lending up to total of £265 million, if the building societies manage to complete their share of lending on co-ownership societies schemes, and £315 million if they do not. It will be obvious, therefore, that this further tranche of £150 million is necessary, and urgently so. The housing associations will not, of course, draw the whole £150 million at one go; they will make drawings of the amount required each month.
The House will want to know the scale and scope of the work of the corporation as well as the fundamental commitment which makes this additional £150 million so essential. Work is proceeding on about 200 schemes of new construction, totalling about 9,000 dwellings, and more than twice that number of schemes, totalling about 20.000 dwellings, are in the pipeline. The greater part of the capital required to finance these dwellings is still to be provided.
I think it emerges clearly that without any new schemes at all the corporation needs to have assured access to the full £150 million which can be provided for in this order. To go on with supporting more new schemes the corporation's

1397
maximum borowing ceiling of £300 million will need to be raised by further statutory provision. The House will know that the Housing and Planning Bill, which rose and fell in the last week of the old Parliament, made provision for an increase in the ceiling to £750 million.
Nothing in the order prejudices or prejudges the reintroduction, in whatever form is decided, of the Housing and Planning Bill, or inhibits a wider rôle for the Housing Corporation as envisaged in that Bill. I hope, therefore, that the House will agree to this Order.
10.5 p.m.
Mr. Paul Tyler: I wish to speak not so much about what the order contains, as about what it leaves out. I must declare an interest, in that I have been advising the Royal Institute of British Architects, and it wishes me to continue to do so. It may be that some architects will benefit from an increase in the borrowing powers of the Housing Corporation.
I am concerned only with the latter part of the Minister's remarks. He spoke briefly about the Housing and Planning Bill, which fell on the Dissolution of Parliament. When that Bill came up for Second Reading on 5th February, there was a great deal of discussion about the rôle of the Housing Corporation. I believe that that discussion was well-merited, because the corporation does not receive as much attention in this House as it deserves. On that occasion the right hon. Member for Grismby (Mr. Crosland), who is now Secretary of State for the Environment, said:
"I turn briefly to the Housing Corporation and the housing associations. I welcome the provisions of Parts I, II and III of the Bill. I am only too well aware that in my party there has traditionally been a certain suspicion of the voluntary housing movement."
He continued:
"I support the movement, not as a substitute, but as a complement.… I welcome the new range of powers for the Housing Corporation in Part I, and I particularly welcome, for the reasons which made the hon. Member opposite nervous, Clause 6, an admirable clause which will have our strong support in Committee. It would be the basis for a large-scale competitive public enterprise in the construction industry."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 5th February 1974; Vol. 868, cc. 1084–5.]
1398
This order seems to provide additional funds to the corporation without at the same time providing it with the additional rôle which was intended in the previous Bill. I do not complain that this Government have not adopted that legislation. My complaint is that the House is being asked to add very greatly to the borrowing powers of the corporation without being given the opportunity to think about the corporation's rôle. An additional borrowing limit from £150 million to £300 million is a considerable increase. We should be told whether the Government have it in mind to take a radical look at the rôle of the corporation.
My interest is that the corporation has expertise, which could be greatly developed in a new direction, and, although I recognise that it is not directly relevant to this order, I think that we should be given an opportunity to think about the rôle of the corporation.
Rather than suggesting that we should prop up or subsidise the building societies, I think that the corporation, which already has to raise considerable sums from official sources and from the international money market and the building societies, would be an ideal instrument for channelling to local housing authorities the funds which they require to be able to offer mortgages to people unable to get them by normal means. I have in mind particularly first-time house buyers on low incomes.
The Housing Corporation, because it is in the money market and because its business is housing, would be able to offer to local authorities, especially the smaller ones, the financial expertise which they do not all have. Therefore, it would be able to make available to them funds which they could, in turn, use for such admirable borrowing facilities as low-start mortgage schemes, equity-linked mortgages, and so on, which local authorities have no hope of instituting at present.
We are asked to provide very considerable additional funds to the Housing Corporation when we could be taking a bold step forward to expand its whole role. I am convinced that there is within the corporation the necessary expertise—financial, legal and technical. I am convinced, too, that with the drive of its new

1399
chairman, the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, this body could afford considerable assistance to local authorities in their policies for home loans.
We are being offered a wasted opportunity. I hope that the Minister will be able to assure us that the rôle of the Housing Corporation has not been forgotten and that it can be given a greater influence for good in assisting smaller local authorities to be more efficient organisers of finance for those who cannot otherwise accumulate it.
10.12 p.m.
Mr. Michael Latham: I want to intervene briefly, as the hour is late and the House wishes to conclude the discussion on this matter. I decided to do so as a result of the intervention by the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Tyler).
This is not the time to discuss the rôle of the Housing Corporation. I hope that the Government will give us a chance to discuss that matter properly by re-introducing the Housing and Town Planning Bill. I have asked Ministers about their policy in the matter. So far, they have not made up their minds. The Minister himself gave that impression from the Treasury Bench earlier this evening.
I, for one, am not too happy about the future rôle of the Housing Corporation as it was envisaged in the Housing and Town Planning Bill. Although I should be out of order if I discussed the matter at length, I must say that I was unhappy about the proposed powers contained in the Bill introduced by my right hon. Friend in the last Parliament. I do not want to see too many developments in that direction. Nor am I happy about the present powers and therefore the corporation's Hite under the order. Nor am I very happy about the development of co-ownership at this time.
The House is aware of my interests in the building industry—interests which have been declared on every occasion. At present, when many houses are unsold and many builders are unable to build houses, the rôle of co-ownership in the competition for scarce resources of material or land is a subject that the House should discuss more exhaustively before we have a substantial increase in the borrowing powers for this purpose.
1400
I merely mark my hon. Friend's card, because I know that the Bill was originally introduced by my right hon. Friends and a Conservative Government would no doubt now be introducing a similar order. The House should consider in more detail the whole rôle of the Housing Corporation and housing associations because we shall reach a stage where the roles are confused. We need a full debate on a proper Bill.
10.13 p.m.
Mr. Hugh Rossi: I welcome the order, which permits the advance of the statutory maximum of £300 million to the Housing Corporation to enable it to perform its functions of promoting and assisting housing associations.
As the Under-Secretary mentioned, the corporation was created in 1964 by the then Conservative Government and by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir Keith Joseph), then Minister of Housing and Local Government, to meet a long-felt need in housing, namely, to help people who were not able to buy their own house in the open market and who did not qualify for local authority housing because they did not comply with the criteria of housing need as laid down in the Housing Acts.
Two groups, in particular, have been helped by the housing associations and the Housing Corporation, namely, older people unable to raise mortgages because of their age, and young married couples looking for rented accommodation because houses on the open market were beyond their means. Young couples being newly married and not in housing need in the accepted sense would not be considered for one moment by local authorities.
The Housing Corporation assists these groups of people by co-ownership schemes and also the fair rent societies, as they are now known, which receive the benefit of the considerable new building subsidies under the Housing Finance Act 1972.
In the present economic circumstances, there is probably an even bigger rôle for housing associations and the Housing Corporation to play to help the people I have mentioned, especially the young married couples who are even more disadvantaged today than they were in 1964, because of the high cost of housing in the inner cities and the high cost of

1401
mortgages. For those reasons, it was the policy of the last administration to seek greatly to strengthen the Housing Corporation, and it did so by introducing the Housing and Planning Bill, which fell because of the last General Election.
I am glad to receive the Under-Secretary's assurance that it is intended to reintroduce the Housing and Planning Bill in some form. In particular, he mentioned the intention to increase the power to make available to the Housing Corporation advances to the limit of £750 million, which was the intention of the last Government.
The Housing and Planning Bill proposed also to give much greater powers to the Housing Corporation. My hon. Friend the Member for Melton (Mr. Latham) has expressed certain misgivings about those powers. His misgivings are well understood, but, because of the housing situation, my right hon. and hon. Friends felt it necessary to expand housing in that way. The intention was to give the Housing Corporation powers to develop and manage properties and on its own account to acquire, develop and dispose of land for housing and other purposes. In effect, it was to act as a housing agency in its own right.
The Housing and Planning Bill made particular provision for hostel accommodation. The hon. Gentleman will know that part of the housing shortage in our cities is caused by many young people taking up and sharing accommodation that otherwise would be available for families.
There is a need for the provision of hostel accommodation for young, single people to release a great deal of housing otherwise taken up by them. This was the policy of the previous Government, which they intended to promote in their Housing and Planning Bill, and it was felt that this would be a great advance towards solving some of our housing problems.
I should therefore like to ask the Under-Secretary a number of questions. He has already mentioned that it is the intention of the Government to introduce measures similar to those in the Housing and Planning Bill to expand the functions of the Housing Corporation. I ask him—if he cannot answer today, perhaps
1402
he will be able to write to me later—whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce a measure expanding the powers of the Housing Corporation in the terms contained in the Housing and Planning Bill and to give the financial assistance that is mentioned in that Bill.
I come to the activities of the Housing Corporation and housing societies. Will the Under-Secretary confirm that 10,000 new dwellings a year have been provided by co-ownership schemes? Will he also confirm that there has been a great expansion in the building, management, improvement and conversion of houses for letting by means of the fair rent societies since the Housing Finance Act?
Will he please give the figures—because I am afraid I do not have them available—of the number of dwellings that have been provided by those societies? Will he also say whether the Government agree that the voluntary housing movement could and should play a far greater part in the future in the provision of homes especially for renting, and whether the Government will give every encouragement to the voluntary housing movement to work side by side with local authorities in areas of particular housing stress?
I do not go all the way with the hon. Member for Bodrnin (Mr. Tyler) when he says that the function of the Housing Corporation should be to provide additional finance for local authorities. I do not think that any of us should be complacent about the growing monopoly in housing provision which many local authorities have in their areas. On the point he mentioned about the ability of local authorities to do this work as compared with the expertise of the Housing Corporation, the reorganisation of local government and the creation of larger authorities has now given local authorities the potential to do on their own all the work that they want to in housing.
I should particularly like the voluntary housing movement and local authorities to work together in housing in stress areas, both to provide new homes and to bring about improved standards in existing older houses through the concentration of improvement grants on these stress areas, and I hope that we can have an assurance on these lines.

1403
I hope that the Government will give the whole voluntary housing movement the boost it needs, so that we can say that this is something that we all support, irrespective of party politics. We all want to see more housing, and more choice in housing, both for sale and for rent. If we can find the means of effectively expanding the voluntary housing movement we shall have done a great deal to provide more choice in both these fields, with co-ownership as a genuine alternative to home ownership in the ordinary way and with renting from a housing association as an alternative to a council house or to renting from a private landlord.
I conclude by making one further plea, which relates to the freeze on rents, which I understand affects voluntary housing associations and may place them in great financial difficulty. Will the Government make financial assistance available, on top of the advance of the £30 million which we are talking about today, to those housing associations which will find themselves in difficulty as a result of the rent freeze that the Government have announced?
10.24 p.m.
Mr. Kaufman: First, perhaps I can relieve the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Tyler) of a misapprehension. He complained—I do not say that he complained in a carping spirit—that tonight the Government were asking the House for additional funds for the Housing Corporation without spelling out an additional rôle for the corporation.
It would be out of order for me to spell out an additional rôle for the Housing Corporation on this order, because the order operates within the 1964 Housing Act and the 1972 Housing Finance Act. The additional funds which we are asking the House to agree tonight are within those former pieces of legislation. An additional rôle for the Housing Corporation can come only within the context of new legislation which the Government are considering. That deals also with the point raised by the hon. Member for Melton (Mr. Latham).
Mr. Tyler: I am grateful to the Minister for his reply, and I assure him that I am not under a misapprehension. My point was that there is as much urgency in the need to re-examine the rôle of the
1404
corporation as there is in the financial situation. That was my reason for raising the question. I hasten to add that I do not think that the Housing Corporation should be simply seen in a direct relationship to the voluntary housing movement. I believe that it could also have a more positive rôle in assisting local authorities with loans to house buyers as well as with their other functions.
Mr. Kaufman: There are many ways in which the rôle of the Housing Corporation can be re-examined. The right hon. and learned Member for Hexham (Mr. Rippon) adumbrated some of these when, in February, he was speaking to the Housing and Planning Bill, on which I had the pleasure of speaking from almost the same place as that in which the hon. Gentleman is sitting tonight. We must re-examine the rôle of the housing associations, particularly as the noble Lord, Lord Goodman, to whom the hon. Gentleman referred, is extremely anxious that the corporation should play a dynamic part in dealing with the relief of housing stress.
The hon. Member for Hornsey (Mr. Rossi) is quite right when he implies that the Government are, with great care and as much speed as is possible in these matters—from his own experience he will know the pace at which one can proceed—re-examining what can be done to reintroduce a measure akin to the Housing and Planning Bill. In assuring the hon. Member for Hornscy of what we are doing, I ought to point out that he misinterpreted me. He should not worry too much that we are resiling from a +positive reconsideration of the rôle of the Housing Corporation. He misunderstood what I was saying if he took it that I was saying that a new Housing and Planning Bill will reintroduce precisely the rôle for the Housing Corporation that the last Bill did. I am not saying that it will not; we are not at the stage where we can tell the House precisely the contents of what might be called the Mark II Housing and Planning Bill.
The hon. Gentleman asked for some figures. Those which I cannot give him tonight I shall be glad to send to him. He is right in having suggested that one of the few positive outcomes of the Housing Finance Act was a remarkable

1405
growth in the number of fair rent schemes. In the year ending 31st March 1973 the number of so-called fair rent schemes approved numbered only three, with 56 dwellings, whereas in the year ending 31st March 1974 the number of schemes had increased to 227 and the number of dwellings to 9,792. So the hon. Gentleman was quite right to believe that the expansion had been marked.
I assure the hon. Gentleman of one other thing—apart from giving him my firm assurance that the Government accept his plea that we should champion the voluntary housing movement—namely, that we shall have regard to the great contribution that it could make. I pointed this out last night on the Adjournment in answer to the hon. Member for Bristol, West (Mr. Robert Cooke) when he raised the problem of homes to let. There is an important rôle for the Housing Corporation and the voluntary housing movement, particularly in the stress areas.
The hon. Gentleman raised another matter of topical importance namely, the impact of the rent freeze on housing associations. He will not expect me to reply to him in specific terms. I assure him that the problem is one to which we are giving particular and marked attention. However, I am sure he will not expect me to outline tonight the possible outcome of our consideration.
I hope that, in advance of any future legislation that the Government may feel able to introduce, the House will now agree to this limited order.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Housing Corporation Advances (Increase of Limit) Order 1974, a draft of which was laid before this House on 21st March, be approved.

HOUSING CORPORATION

  HOUSE OF COMMONS (SERVICES)
  Ordered,
  That Mr. Reginald Eyre be discharged from the Select Committee on House of Commons (Services) and that Mrs. Peggy Fenner be added to the Committee.—[Mr. Walter Harrison.]

  ADJOURNMENT
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Coleman.]

HOUSING (PROTECTION OF TENANTS)
10.31 p.m.
Mr. George Cunningham: My purpose in this debate is to draw attention to three aspects of the residential property situation in areas of housing stress, notably in inner London.
First, despite the chronic shortage of housing in these areas, there are many flats and parts of houses vacant because the owners are gradually getting the tenants out so that they can sell whole properties with vacant possession.
Secondly, to assist in that process, owners and their agents do their utmost, by means which are just within and sometimes not within the law, to get tenants out. This is the latterday Rachmanism that we call "winkling".
Thirdly, there are many highly respectable—or I should say highly respected—individuals, companies and other organisations who are to some extent lending their assistance to these practices. I shall suggest some remedies for these three grievances.
First, on the simple point of the number of dwellings standing empty; I believe that the whole country would be astounded with the results, if a sample survey were conducted, to see just how many such places there are. I do not believe that there is any street in my constituency that would not reveal a number of vacancies. I do not mean vacancies caused by a normal transfer of occupation; I mean those arising from the intentional holding of empty property so that a whole house or block of flats can be sold off. I want the Department of the Environment to conduct such a sample survey—preferably in my constituency.
The previous Minister for Housing and Construction announced that local authorities should initiate compulsory purchase orders in respect of property left empty for speculative purposes. I want this Labour Government to go further and to say that where parts of a block of flats or parts of a multi-occupied house are being left empty, the local authority should make a CPO. I want the Minister clearly to indicate to all

1407
concerned, especially to his own inspectors who conduct CPO hearings, that this practice will be taken by him as sufficient ground for confirming CPOs. I also want him to speed up the procedures for getting these CPOs through. At the moment it takes a year or more to complete the process.
I come now to the odious practice of the winkler. What are the devices used to get tenants out despite legal security?
First, we should bear in mind that the courts, faced with requests by landlords for possession, take some regrettable decisions. In Clerkenwell County Court in 1972 I heard with amazement a judge indicate that he would agree to the last tenant in a large house being legally forced out, partly, as he put it, because it was unsocial for the house otherwise to stand empty. There was no need for it to be empty at all. The owners could have let the vacent flats at any time at fair rents and could have had generous grants to improve the places. What they preferred to do was get the tenants out so that an even greater profit could be made by selling with vacant possession. The courts can be used by the property companies to further their aims, but when that does not help, what are the devices used to get tenants out? I quote a trivial and amusing example, just as an appetiser. I have seen a letter from Mr. Colin Spotswood, a chartered surveyor, of Richmond, addressed to one of his leaseholders. He said
"My clients do not want socialist election posters to be displayed in your flat If at any time in the future you change your politics I expect that permission would be given for Tory posters if a proper application was made."
More seriously, however, the activities of the winklers begin with neglect of repairs. Landlords often do not do repairs to their premises. They ignore notices under the Public Health Acts and when finally compelled to do them they do them badly. Local authorities now have the powers to force the repairs to be done, but the procedures are very long, and often a tenant leaves because of the bad state of the place before it is put into a fit condition. That, of course, is exactly what the owner hopes and works for.
I want the Minister to urge local authorities to use their repairs powers more robustly and speedily, and I also
1408
want the local authorities to be able to charge negligent owners for the administrative costs of going through the compulsion process. Owners and their agents also mislead tenants about their rights and they indulge in constant pestering in the hope that the tenants will give up and go for the sake of peace.
I want the Government to encourage the drawing up of a code of landlord-tenant practice which respectable companies, estate agents and solicitors would be prepared to hold to and I should like the public to boycott those firms which refused to subscribe to the code. Such a code would prescribe, first, that when tenants are served with a legal notice—for example, a notice to quit—they should always be told what their rights are in relation to that legal step. Secondly, if tenants are offered alternative accommodation, or money to get out, the offer should always be in writing, so that the tenants, who often do not know their rights, can take it away and seek advice on it. Thirdly, estate agents should insist that they are free to get repairs done as soon as the need for them is brought to their attention. Finally, any estate agent taking on the management of a property should insist that he and he alone should deal with tenants. This is to stop the practice of using an estate agent to collect the rents and a freelance winkler to pester tenants to get them out. A winkler does the job less scrupulously because he does not have a shop front and a local reputation to lose.
I can best illustrate the need for this by referring to a case that arose in Islington last year. A tenant in a house owned by Mr. P. G. Prebble and Mr. Paul Hilton—who, incidentally, were in breach of the Landlord and Tenant Act by not having their names in the rent book—was bothered by two men who called and made to enter the tenant's private rooms. The tenant had to go for a bread knife to get the men to go. The men did not identify themselves. The estate agents dealing with the property were Messrs. Prebble and Co. They, too, were in breach of the Landlord and Tenant Act. At my request they asked the owners who the men were. It was not a difficult inquiry in this case, since the owners and agents have a common address. They confirmed that

1409
the men—or, as they insisted, the man—were from the owners, but when I asked for the names of the men involved this is the reply I got:
"The owners do not feel disposed to advising me of the name of their representative and I regret, therefore, that I cannot help you further in this respect."
I say that respectable agents will not accept management duties if anonymous freelance winklers are used at the same time. If estate agents want to be in a respectable profession, these are the kind of points to which they should be prepared to adhere.
The behaviour which I have described would be condemned by all decent people, but the public would be surprised to learn that a lot of apparently respectable people are, in practice, lending their support to these activities in an indirect but none the less blameworthy way. The right hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann), for example—I have given him notice that I shall be referring to him tonight—is a nice, decent banker. But his hank, Keyser Ullman, owns Sword-heath Properties Limited, and Sword-heath has had three blocks of flats in my area for a considerable time. In all three, repairs were neglected, flats were left vacant for months and years on end, and tenants were told that they could not be moved to a lower floor even when they had medical grounds for such a move.
That has changed now. With me taking an interest and under the spotlight of publicity, Swordheath cannot afford to do that any more. But while it was operating in the dark, the right hon. Gentleman and his company were prepared to make profits by these means.
What about that other highly respected institution, the Crown Agents? That is a Government-appointed body, which invests money for foreign Governments. It has put huge sums of money into property speculation in London. Keyser Ullman has a holding by the Crown Agents. The property empire of John Chalk and Gwyn Jones—exposed in John Plender's excellent articles in The Times —got money from the Crown Agents via First National Finance Corporation.
What about the Church Commissioners, who invest in property to boost the
1410
stipends of the Anglican clergy? They have a big investment in the New River Company, which kept empty many flats in my area for speculative purposes. I hope that the Anglican clergy realise that when they receive their monthly cheques they are up to their dog collars in property speculation. We need to get residential property out of the hands of people like this by compulsory purchase orders.
I conclude by describing one case where a CPO will no doubt reach the Minister in time to show the kind of thing to which a CPO is the only answer. The local authority has started the process. Last year a number of my constituents complained to me that they were being bothered by a man pestering them to move out, sometimes offering money. He claimed to represent a company called Anglo-Canadian Real Estate. That company denied that it owned the houses and said that a firm called Host-green was the owner. Hostgreen said that although it was the owner, it had a binding contract to sell to Mr. Alexander Skeaping, a well known property developer in my area. Solicitors for the owner wrote to me saying that Mr. Skeaping was in breach of contract by negotiating with the tenants when the contract specifically forbade him to do so. But Hostgreen was not free of blame, for it was in breach of the Landlord and Tenant Act by not having its name in the rent books—and so were the estate agents in this case, Messrs. Copping Joyce, for the same reason.
When the houses were finally transferred out of Hostgreen ownership, it was announced that they were owned by Rudbray Limited, Mr. Alexander Skeaping and Mr. W. Maxwell Smith now emerged as the directors of Rudbray Limited, Mr. Maxwell Smith having been the chap who was orginally pestering the tenants. It is, I am told, a coincidence that this man is Mr. W. Maxwell Smith and that one of the directors of Host-green was Mr. W. Maxwell McGuire.
One of the tenants in these houses exercised his right under the Landlord and Tenant Act to ask for a list of the directors of the owning company, and he has not had it. That is a criminal offence on the part of the agent and the landlord. Rudbrays have not even filed

1411
the names of any directors with Companies House. That is also a criminal offence.
In answer to a recent Question, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade told me that the company had been listed in the London Gazette as one which would be struck off the list and forbidden to do business. Meanwhile, Mr. Maxwell Smith carries on with his pestering of tenants. This is an absolutely typical case of London residential property speculation. A maze of fly-by-night companies is passing houses from hand to hand. Most of the companies are in breach of the law in various respects. The unfortunate tenants are the raw material for their enormous profits. I hope that my hon. Friend will assure me, when I bring any case like this to his attention, that he will arrange for the companies to be investigated, prosecuted for breaches of law and struck off the Companies Register for failure to comply with the Companies Act. I hope that he will ensure that the individuals involved will all have their tax affairs investigated to see whether they are evading the tax laws by the manipulations.
I am pleased that the action taken to gazette Rudbrays was so swift, but I want something more. I want a Select Committee to investigate the London residential property empires. It is time that we moved these slugs from under their stones into public view.
It is not just the property companies and their agents that we are up against. What about the firm of solicitors which is involved? When a solicitor's client is prosecuted in court no blame should attach to the solicitor, whatever his client has done. But firms of solicitors which, with no point of law and no litigation involved, are prepared to place their names and their respectability behind the kind of activity which I have described must expect some of the justified criticism to rub off on them.
My complaints to Mr. Alexander Skeaping about the case which I have described in Halton Road have been referred to a firm of solicitors. It has seen fit to write to me defending him. No legal point is at issue. It is defending his behaviour in general. The firm in question is Messrs. Lewis Silkin and
1412
Partners. It is my view that a firm of such standing, and connected as it is, should be more careful about getting involved with people in companies which have committed the irregularities which I have described. If such firms do not take that care they must not be surprised if, to some extent, they are identified with the actions of those for whom they speak.
I shall say no more on that point, out of what is probably a misplaced sense of delicacy, but I feel very strongly about it. It is just one more manifestation of the readiness of respectable people not to inquire too rigorously into these matters. There are hundreds of thousands of tenants who need solicitors to be on their side rather than against them.
10.48 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Gerald Kaufman): My hon. Friend the Member for Islington, South and Finsbury (Mr. Cunningham) has dealt with matters which I find extremely redolent of my constituency. During the last election some of my constituents were warned that they would be evicted unless they removed my election posters from their windows. Only last Saturday I found that a constituent's landlord was in breach of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1954 in the way in which my hon. Friend has described.
My hon. Friend has become known as a fearless champion of tenants who are subjected to intimidation or harassment by unscrupulous landlords, as indeed is my hon. Friend the Member for St. Pancras, North (Mr. Stallard), whom I am glad to see in the Chamber, and who has had so much to say of value to tenants.
My hon. Friend the Member for Islington, South and Finsbury is one of the heroes of the celebrated Stonefield Street episode in his constituency, when an attempt at winkling was defeated by the united action of the tenants, aided by my hon. Friend. As a Member for a constituency which has its fair share of unsatisfactory landlords, and as a representative of a Department which exists, among other objectives, to defend the interests of all tenants as well as other householders, I wish him well in his campaign to protect tenants.
My hon. Friend has raised a number of matters which, as he knows, are relevant to the responsibilities of other

1413
Departments. The general question of the control of estate agents is one for the Department of Trade and Consumer Affairs. My hon. Friend will have seen the reply of 19th March from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Affairs to the hon. Member for Rochdale (Mr. Smith), and I know that he will understand that from the Department of the Environment I cannot take the matter further. In her reply my right hon. Friend said that she had no immediate plans for legislation. My hon. Friend will appreciate that, bearing in mind the Government's legislative priorities, including one Bill of the very highest priority to which I shall refer presently.
My hon. Friend made several pungent remarks about property companies. Property companies, again, are not the responsibility of my Department. I shall refer my hon. Friend's remarks to my right hon. Friend the Secretary for Trade and ask him or one of his ministerial colleagues to write to my hon. Friend.
Earlier in my remarks I recalled my hon. Friend's championship of tenants in Stonefield Street. Now—very worthily —he is taking up the cudgels for tenants in another part of his constituency—Halton Road. I applaud him in his efforts to defend the interests of his constituents.
I have seen some correspondence about this case, and I say, quite flatly, that I deplore the practice of winkling, even where the winkler may wear a velvet glove. His constituents should be grateful to my hon. Friend for the actions he is taking on their behalf, and I hope that those involved will pay heed to my hon. Friend's advocacy on behalf of his constituents.
It is important that, with or without legislation from this or any other Government, estate agents should think carefully before sending out letters which, wittingly or unwittingly, may make a particular impression on the recipient, who may not always have the benefit of the advice of someone as dauntless and stubborn as my hon. Friend.
At the same time, I cannot go along with what my hon. Friend says about the rôle of solicitors, whether in the firm he mentioned or in any other. Even the basest of rogues or criminals must have
1414
access to legal advice and representation. This goes for the powerful and unscrupulous as well as for the weak and defenceless. They must have the right of recourse to such advice, otherwise justice will not be done. Nor, in my view, is it fair to tar a solicitor with the brush of an accusation made against his client —otherwise, for example, no solicitor would ever act for someone accused of murder.
Mr. Cunningham: I hope that my hon. Friend is aware of the distinction which, in a hurried speech, I tried to draw between a solicitor who acts in litigation, to whom no blame attaches, and a solicitor who writes letters which the principal, if he chose, could write himself and where the solicitor is offering his respectability for the furtherance of the ends of the principal.
Mr. Kaufman: My hon. Friend and are neither of us lawyers, and I think the more highly of both of us for that. Therefore, we start from the same base point, and I am unable to argue legal matters with any greater authority than is my hon. Friend. From time to time, for better or for worse, I have had to apply to solicitors for advice. One does not always apply to them for advice on action in the courts. One applies to them for advice on many other matters.
I do not believe that one could get a system of justice if one were to tar a solicitor with the brush of the accusation made against his client. Otherwise, no solicitor would ever act for someone accused of murder. In my hon. Friend's justifiable and admirable anxiety to defend his constituents, which I totally applaud, I advise him not to lose sight of that aspect. My concern is to ensure that my Department does everything possible to eliminate possibilities of harassment, a situation which my hon. Friend has so vividly and eloquently denounced tonight.
My hon. Friend has suggested the speeding up of compulsory purchase orders and their added use as one way of tackling the problem. He will not expect me to comment in advance on specific cases, but my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is prepared to confirm orders where a case has been made in terms of what I may call numerative or qualitative housing action. I hope that

1415
will go some way to meet my hon. Friend's point.
My hon. Friend will realise the great difficulty in speeding up confirmation of opposed CPOs. This is a carefully balanced procedure, where the interests of all must be safeguarded, including objectors. An objector may not be a winkler but a householder with an honest and valid case.
Additional inspectors are being recruited and waiting time for inquiries will soon be cut down. Administrative staffs have been strengthened and reorganised, and higher priority is being given to CPOs. But delays take place not only in the Department but in local authorities.
On this particular case I must tell my hon. Friend that in Halton Road no order has yet been made, although a resolution to make such an order was passed by Islington Council on 18th December 1973. Therefore, the ball is very much in the local authority's court on this matter. As I have said, we in the Department wish to provide every possible safeguard against winkling and other forms of harassment.
I remind my hon. Friend that tenants have the protection of the harassment provisions of Part III of the Rent Act 1965 and penalties now available under the Criminal Justice Act 1972. These fines are pretty severe, though my hon. Friend the Member for St. Pancras, North may not agree. They amount to an unlimited fine and two years' imprisonment for a first offence when a case is tried on indictment. The definition of "harassment" in Section 30 of the Rent Act 1965 is wide enough, if applied, to include much of what is known as winkling. The section says that:
"If any person with intent to cause the residential occupier of any premises to give up the occupation of the premises or any part thereof … does acts calculated to interfere with the peace or comfort of the residential
1416
occupier or members of his household … he shall be guilty of an offence."
We in the Department would like to see maximum use made of these provisions both by local authorities in bringing prosecutions and by courts in making use of penalties available when sentencing those found guilty of this absolutely monstrous behaviour. In addition, we shall be providing further protection, through impending legislation, to provide security of tenure for furnished tenants, which is especially important in London. We believe this will be of major assistance to tenants who live in this sort of accommodation, with only such limited security as the furnished rent tribunal can give them.
The legislation will give security of tenure for furnished as well as unfurnished tenants. But my hon. Friend—and also my hon. Friend the Member for St. Pancras, North—has been involved in defence of tenants long enough to know that no legislation, however, strong, will defend a weak or gullible tenant against a landlord sufficiently unscrupulous or wily. Such abuses will continue as long as private landlordism continues.
That is why the surest defence of tenants subjected to winkling, as well as all other tenants suffering neglect or exploitation by private landlordism, is the phasing out of the whole sorry system of landlordism by the municipalisation policy to which this Government are committed.
Transcendental policies of this kind may take us a long way from the homely problems of Halton Road. But my hon. Friend, with his great experience of these matters, will know that in the end such policies are the surest answer to the problems that he encounters in his daily constituency work.
Question put and agreed to.
Adjourned accordingly at Eleven o'clock.

ENVIRONMENT
  Heavy Lorries
  Heavy Lorries
  Government Grants
  Government Grants
  Channel Tunnel
  Channel Tunnel
  Residential Rents (Private Sector)
  Residential Rents (Private Sector)
  Housing
  Housing
  Public Expenditure
  Public Expenditure
  Local Councillors (Duties)
  Local Councillors (Duties)
  Development Land
  Development Land
  Seat Belts
  Seat Belts
  Council Houses (Sale)
  Council Houses (Sale)
  Constitution (Report)
  Constitution (Report)
  Waste Materials (Conversion)
  Waste Materials (Conversion)
  Railways
  Railways
  Housing Costs
  Housing Costs
  House Building
  House Building
  Rate Support Grant
  Rate Support Grant
  Mortgages (Local Authority Schemes)
  Mortgages (Local Authority Schemes)
  Avon Bridge (M5)
  Avon Bridge (M5)
  Railways (Electrification)
  Railways (Electrification)
  Local Government Staff (Norfolk)
  Local Government Staff (Norfolk)
  Improvement Grants
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  Roads
  Roads
  Disc Parking
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  Lump Labour
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  Speed Limits
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  Housing (Sheffield)
  Housing (Sheffield)
  Rating Revaluation
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  Greater London Council
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  Petrol (Lead Content)
  Petrol (Lead Content)
  Gipsies
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  Housing Land
  Housing Land
  Okehampton (Bypass)
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  A61 (Swanwick-Ripley Bypass)
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  Planning Appeals
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  A1 and M1
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  Lorries (Jack-knifing)
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  Beverley Bypass
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  Southern Water Authority
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  Compulsory Purchase Orders (Private Gardens)
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  Railway Fares
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  Double Glazing
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  M65 Calder Valley Route
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  West Dock, Portbury
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  Buildings (Fire Precautions)
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  A1 (Hatfield)
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  Natural History Museum
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  M16
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  Planning (Public Participation)
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  Construction Industry (Self-Employed Persons)
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  House of Lords (Television Lounge)
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  Community Councils
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SCOTLAND
  Oil Industry
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  Fishing Vessels (Grants and Loans)
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  Rents
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  Fishing Limits
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  Milk (Producer-Retailers)
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FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
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  Hong Kong (Schoolchildren)
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  Chile (Arms Supplies)
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HOME DEPARTMENT
  Dangerous Chemicals (Carriage by Road)
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  Lighting Restrictions (Incidence of Crime)
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  Television Licences (Scotland)
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  Sports Grounds (Safety)
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ENERGY
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  Tidal and Sea Power
  HOUSE PROPERTY DEALS (COSTS)
  HOUSE PROPERTY DEALS (COSTS)
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Horticulture
  Horticulture
  Cattle and Beef
  Cattle and Beef
  Thames Barrage
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  Beam Trawling
  Beam Trawling
CIVIL SERVICE
  Post Office (Pension Funds)
  Post Office (Pension Funds)
DEFENCE
  Missiles
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EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
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EMPLOYMENT
  Training (Construction Industry)
  Training (Construction Industry)
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INDUSTRY
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HOUSE OF COMMONS
  Members' Petrol Allowance
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  Government Legislation (Application)
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NATIONAL FINANCE
  Personal Incomes
  Personal Incomes
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  Petrol Duty
  Petrol Duty
  Oil Duties (EEC Harmonisation)
  Oil Duties (EEC Harmonisation)
  Taxation (Benefits in Kind)
  Taxation (Benefits in Kind)
  Taxation and Tax Offences (Construction Industry)
  Taxation and Tax Offences (Construction Industry)
NORTHERN IRELAND
  Easter Parade (Lurgan)
  Easter Parade (Lurgan)
  Armagh (Killings)
  Armagh (Killings)
  Border Roads
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  Royal Ulster Constabulary
  Royal Ulster Constabulary
  Hijacking
  Hijacking
  Television (Police Usage)
  Television (Police Usage)
  Security Forces (Search Instructions)
  Security Forces (Search Instructions)
OVERSEAS DEVELOPMENT
  Brazil
  Brazil
SOCIAL SERVICES
  Immigrants (Overseas Dependants)
  Immigrants (Overseas Dependants)
  Deserted Wives
  Deserted Wives
  Abortion
  Abortion
  Preston District Hospital
  Preston District Hospital
  Self-Employed Persons (Insurance Evasion)
  Self-Employed Persons (Insurance Evasion)
  Subnormal Persons
  Subnormal Persons
TRADE
  Eastern Europe
  Eastern Europe
  National Film Finance Corporation
  National Film Finance Corporation
  Shepperton Studios
  Shepperton Studios
  Film Industry
  Film Industry
WALES
  National Health Service
  National Health Service

Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Wakefield.
Several Lords—Took the Oath.
The Lord Foot—Affirmed.

INDIA: UNITED KINGDOM AID PROPOSALS
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what proposals will be made by the British representatives at the forthcoming meeting of the Indian Aid Consortium in response to the appeal of the World Bank.
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, the World Bank is now updating the staff study to which my noble friend refers, so there will be preliminary discussion of it at an informal Working Party of the Aid India Consortium in a few days' time. In the light of that discussion we shall decide what pledge of aid to make at the regular Consortium meeting in June. In the meantime, we have offered a £10 million maintenance loan to India. This is on top of our 1973 pledge and was signed on March 27.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, while greatly welcoming that reply, may I ask the Minister this question? Would the British representative on the Consortium propose, in co-operation with the American and European approaches to the Arab Governments, that they should make more generous contributions towards India and the Third World in view of the fact that their poverty is aggravated by the oil shortage?
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, I think that the
910
whole world will hope that the oil-producing countries, who are themselves developing countries, will view with sympathy the needs of the rest of the Third World. There can be no doubt that it is not simply the petroleum itself that is important; things like fertilisers are almost as vital to India in tackling her problems. I am quite sure that Her Majesty's Government will view with sympathy anything India herself may do, and that anything they can do, through the Consortium, to make the situation better they will do.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, will Her Majesty's Government point out to the Indian Government that in order to give them any help or aid at the moment we are having to borrow abroad to provide the money?
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: Yes, my Lords.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, is it not the case that this new grant of £10 million is dependent upon India's buying materials from this country; and therefore will not this country benefit, as well as India?
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, as my noble friend knows, a great many of our loans are what are called "soft-term" loans. We shall hope to continue this kind of loan, which is not geared to buying particular things from this country.
LORD INGLEWOOD: My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether she could explain some of these terms? In her last reply she used a very curious term. What is a "maintenance loan" intended specifically to do? I do not want to be tiresome, but this jargon is rather difficult.
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, I should think it would be to maintain the economy of India.
LORD WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, are Her Majesty's Government prepared to take steps to ensure that an adequate supply of nitrogenous fertilisers can be made available, since, at the present time there seems to be shortage of them?
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, the whole position of fertilisers throughout the world, as my noble friend knows, is extremely difficult. Without notice I could not speak about nitrogenous fertilisers specifically, but we are aware of the great danger, particularly to India, of the lack of fertilisers.
LORD GORE-BOOTH: My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that this country has a very good tradition of stepping in with aid to India where there is a state of crisis, and that this offer will be greatly welcomed?
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord.

STOCK MARKET "BED AND BREAKFAST" DEALS
2.42 p.m.
LORD CROOK: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will cause investigation to be made as to the prevalence of what is termed in the Stock Market as "bed and breakfast" deals, (viz. where sales of stock take place just before the Stock Exchange closes at night with re-purchase of the same stock immediately the Exchange opens next morning), with a view to establishing a capital gains loss to offset subsequent capital gains and thus reduce liability to tax payments.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHEPHERD): My Lords, this is a matter for my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer and I will pass on to him the noble Lord's suggestion. The Government are aware of what is referred to as "bed and breakfast" deals, but their effect is normally a deferment rather than an avoidance of capital gains tax liability.
LORD HARVEY OF PRESTBURY: My Lords, will the noble Lord say which stocks—
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, it is customary that the noble Lord who puts the Question should have the right to ask the first supplementary.
LORD CROOK: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his Answer, may I ask him whether he is aware that on the day of the Budget the Stock Exchange registered 14,737 bargains, and that the large number of those were caused by people taking out "bed and breakfast" arrangements simply because they were terrified that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would put a stop to them in his Budget?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, the noble Lord has the advantage over me; I was not aware of those figures. As I said in my original Answer, the effect of such deals would be a deferment, as opposed to avoidance, of tax liability.
LORD HARVEY OF PRESTBURY: My Lords, will the noble Lord inform the House which stocks have shown a capital gain in recent months?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I have no doubt that in the ensuing months there will be considerable capital gains.
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, are Her Majesty's Government aware that if they took action along the lines suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Crook, people would sell without rebuying, and the Stock Exchange would be depressed still further?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, perhaps the noble Lord might give further consideration to the question that he put, but the noble Lord himself will be aware that prior to 1971 deals of this kind were not possible because of the provisions on short-term capital gains. It was in 1971, when the previous Administration were in office, that the change which made this kind of deal possible was made.
LORD AIREDALE: My Lords, if taxpayers are to be encouraged to respect the capital gains tax, does it not behove Governments to make sure that what is taxed is in fact a real gain?—because in times of inflation many a gain on paper, which is taxed as such, is in real terms no gain whatsoever.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, if the noble Lord would care to raise that point in a debate I shall be happy to debate it with him, but I do not think it arises on this particular Question.

TELEVISION: ALLOCATION OF FOURTH CHANNEL
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government to state the criteria on which applications would be accepted for the fourth television channel, and to indicate when they expect to be in a position to consider the applications.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH): My Lords, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary said in another place last week that he hoped to make a Statement shortly about the Government's policy on the future of broadcasting. I would ask my noble friend to await that Statement.
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I recognise that the Government must have a policy in this matter. Can the Minister give me some indication of whether, for instance, the fourth channel will be given to the existing companies, and whether the Open University will be given extra time on this channel?
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH: My Lords, I am afraid that at this stage I cannot anticipate the content of my right honourable friend's Statement.
BARONESS PHILLIPS: My Lords, may I ask whether a Statement will be made in the House on which we can have some information?
LORD HARRIS OF GREENWICH: My Lords, I hope so, certainly.

CONCORDE PROJECT AND LOSS FORECASTS
2.46 p.m.
LORD TREFGARNE: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will secure that British Airways publish more detailed information than hitherto concerning their
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forecast losses arising from the operation of Concorde.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRY (LORD BESWICK): My Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Trade is discussing with the British Airways Board what more detailed information could be made available to Parliament about their forecasts of the effect on their profitability of introducing the Concorde services.
LORD TREFGARNE: My Lords, I am, as always, greatly obliged to the noble Lord for his reply. Will he and his right honourable friend bear in mind, in their discussions with British Airways, the unfortunate history in matters of this kind, particularly in relation to the VC10? Will his right honourable friend also bear in mind the powers he has under Section 40 of the 1971 Act and use those powers if it seems appropriate?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I certainly agree with the noble Lord that this is an area in which it is not wise to be unduly dogmatic about future forecasts, and history supports that view.
LORD HARVEY OF PRESTBURY: My Lords, will the noble Lord say whether the House will be informed by means of a Green Paper or a White Paper, or is there to be a debate on this very important matter in the near future?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, the question of a debate could be a matter of discussion. So far as the nature of the further Statement is concerned, there is no decision about its form, but I assume that it will be a Statement somewhat similar to the original one, with additional detail.
LORD LLOYD OF KILGERRAN: My Lords, may I ask whether the noble Lord remembers the distinguished speech made in this House by the noble Lord, Lord Kings Norton, who has great experience in these matters, when he referred to the advantages to British industry of what he called "spin-off" from Concorde? Will the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, be good enough to encourage British Airways, in addition to giving their direct forecast as to losses, to give even general information as to the advantages that would accrue to British industry from this project of Concorde?
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I remember every speech that is made by the noble Lord, Lord Kings Norton, and I remember what I said following that particular speech. As the noble Lord himself may recall, I wholeheartedly agreed with what Lord Kings Norton had to say.

GOVERNMENT STATEMENTS
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, with the leave of the House, at a convenient moment after 3.30 p.m. my noble friend Lord Goronwy-Roberts will be making a Statement on the E.E.C. Foreign Ministers' Meeting. This will be followed by a Statement on the Channel Tunnel to be made by my noble friend the Leader of the House.

PROCEDURE OF THE HOUSE
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL): My Lords, I beg to move the first Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the Select Committee on Procedure of the House be appointed; and that, as proposed by the Committee of Selection (Second Report), the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:—

Lord Chancellor (L. Elwyn-Jones),

Lord Privy Seal (L. Shepherd),

E. St. Aldwyn,

E. Perth,

E. Selkirk,

V. Dilhorne,

V. Hood,

L. Aberdare,

L. Blyton,

L. Byers,

L. Conesford,

L. Denham,

L. Diamond,

B. Gaitskell,

L. Gardiner,

L. Greenwood of Rossendale,

L. Hailsham of Saint Marylebone,

B. Hylton-Foster,

B. Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe,

L. Maybray-King,

L. Molson,

L. Nugent of Guildford,

L. Shackleton,

L. Strang,

L. Tanlaw,

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L. Wade,

L. Windlesham.—(The Earl of Listowel.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

PRIVILEGES
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I beg to move the second Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That in accordance with Standing Order 71, a Select Committee for Privileges be appointed, and that, as proposed by the Committee of Selection (Second Report), the following Lords, together with the Chairman of Committees and any four Lords of Appeal, be named of the Committee:—

Lord Privy Seal (L. Shepherd),

E. St. Aldwyn,

L. Amulree,

L. Beswick,

L. Brooke of Cumnor,

L. Byers,

L. Champion,

L. Conesford,

L. Henderson,

B. Hylton-Foster,

B. Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe.

L. Molson,

L. Rea,

L. Shackleton,

L. Windlesham.—(The Earl of Listowel.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

STANDING ORDERS (PRIVATE BILLS)
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I beg to move the third Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That a Select Committee on the Standing Orders be appointed, and that, as proposed by the Committee of Selection (Second Report), the Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, be named of the Committee:—

Lord Chancellor (L. Elwyn-Jones),

E. Lauderdale,

L. Airedale,

L. Alport,

B. Bacon,

L. Cawley,

L. Derwent,

L. Douglas of Barloch,

L. Terrington.—(The Earl of Listowel.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

WESTERN EUROPE/UNITED STATES RELATIONS
2.49 p.m.
LORD O'HAGAN LORD O'HAGAN rose to call attention to relations between Western Europe and the U.S.A., and the implications for the United Kingdom; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, before I begin, I hope that I may express deep sympathy to Madame Pompidou and the family of the late President of France.
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear!
LORD O'HAGAN: By his death, it is not only France which is the poorer, but Europe.
My Lords, I do not rise in your Lordships' House to-day to put forward any grand theories or any "instant O'Hagan" solutions. My aim in introducing this debate is much more limited. In this opening speech, in what promises to be a long and outstanding debate on the relations between Western Europe and the United States of America and the implications for this country, I want only to set the scene and to touch on some tender areas of decision-making, in the hope that the collective widsom of your Lordships' House may benefit Her Majesty's Government.
As a newcomer to these subjects I am reminded of the theory of continental drift, the theory that the earth's land surface is a disjointed jigsaw puzzle in which the interlocking continents split, mingle and reunite, imperceptibly but continuously. In the political counter-part of that physical continental drift I would suggest to the House that we may be at a moment of increasing movement and stress, if not fundamental change. In five weeks there will be a new French President; in five months there may be a new American President; in ten months we may be out of the European Economic Community; there is a serious possibility of a world food crisis.
I am convinced that there are no simple open and shut alternatives for Britain. All economies are much more interdependent than they used to be, so we cannot opt out of world relationships or world problems, and we cannot escape Europe, even if we break faith with the European Economic Community. But to
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play our part and to do the best for the people in this country, all plans for the future should be based on a realistic assessment of our standing in the world to-day.
Perhaps I might mention a few cold statistics. In 1950 our share of world trade was 11 per cent.; last year it was under 6 per cent. In 1950 our share of world reserves was 7 per cent.; in 1960 it was 6·2 per cent.; in 1973 it was 3·5 per cent. Between 1950 and 1973 the value of this country's import market grew over four times; that of West Germany grew over 18 times and that of Japan nearly 400 times. I would suggest to your Lordships that we should remember these facts when looking at the options open to Britain to-day.
I believe that NATO has just had its 25th birthday. In the United States of America there is a respectable and considerable body of opinion, inside Congress as well as outside, that looks to Europe to deal with its own defence. The argument about costs must not be glossed over, if only because it tends to be an umbrella for other deep concerns. Vietnam has turned many Congressmen against having so many troops abroad: besides, "Bring our boys back !" is always a good electoral cry. The Americans may be defending America by being stationed in Europe, but it is carrying French logic a little too far to presume that every American will perceive the connection.
Again, how can American leaders counteract anxious questioners about Europe's reliability when the E.E.C. goes in for so many public cat-fights at the top? Therefore it is not surprising that Dr. Kissinger—Ariel to the President's declining Prospero—tries to cajole the member-States of the European Economic Community into some more coherent public stand. He must do so. But still, the next time he feels like questioning the legitimacy of the Governments of Europe I hope he will study what his own Vice-President has just said about that great organ of democracy, the Committee to Re-elect the President. May I in this context ask the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, to say what consultations the present Government have had with the United States of America about the Defence cuts planned by the present Government?

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Then, my Lords, there is trade. The Americans have lost ready access to our markets since we joined the European Economic Community. We remember that there was a bit of a squabble about soya beans. What is the attitude of the present Government to Article XXIV(6) of GATT? Where do Her Majesty's Government stand on the question of compensating the U.S.A. for our membership of the E.E.C? And are the Government in agreement with our partners in Europe on this question?
I believe that American grain reserves are very low. Can the Government tell us whether we shall be able to look to the United States to provide us with grain in the event of a world food shortage? Perhaps the noble Lord could say at the same time whether, if we did leave the European Economic Community, he would hope that we could acquire elsewhere the food that we acquired cheaply from Europe as a result of our being a member of the European Economic Community.
We must maintain our links with the United States of America. But alliances evolve. If they stand still they are already dead, and we must be aware that change may happen on the other side of the Atlantic very quickly. The American leadership may change any day. The President's successor may well be very isolationist and we are too small nowadays to be of real use to the United States in world power politics. I am sure that Her Majesty's Government will give a warm but guarded welcome to the febrile hand of friendship that is stretching across the Atlantic. I am sure they will remember that young Congressmen do not wake up each morning wondering what they can do for Europe or Britain to-day.
Exactly where we stand in the shifting scenario of détente and disarmament I am far too ignorant to guess; nor can I offer any perceptions about the U.S.S.R. or China, and I will leave these matters to other noble Lords who are more knowledgable. But I should like to touch for a minute on the Third World and the Commonwealth, because I hope that these countries will not be squeezed out between Europe and the U.S.A. Europe must widen its trading links with the poorer countries who are now more aware
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of their own power and I should like to support wholeheartedly what Mr. Callaghan has called for in this context. On the other hand, I hope we are not going to hear too much humbug about the Commonwealth. I value the Commonwealth, in so far as I know anything about it, as a forum for inter-racial and international discussion; but, as I understand it, it has little economic clout.
I understand also that world prices have risen above the prices that were guaranteed for various producers in the Commonwealth who produce difficult commodities. That is not to say they will not fall again; I would not commit myself to that vain hope. I think we must recognise that many members of the Commonwealth have made alternative arrangements; New Zealand has turned towards Japan; in defence, Australia has turned directly to South-East Asia and it is no use our hoping, in a moment of post-Imperial nostalgia, that history can be re-written. We have continuing responsibilities towards the Commonwealth, but the Commonwealth countries go their own ways nowadays.
I believe that Britain's best future—not "only" but "best" future—lies within the European Economic Community and in close links between the European Economic Community and the United States of America. Can the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, say precisely what Her Majesty's Government propose to do in order to improve the processes of consultation between the E.E.C. and the U.S.A.? Do they propose formal arrangements or do they merely propose a better exchange of information, and if so, at what stage in the decision-making process?
Can the noble Lord say what our partners in Europe think of the plans of Her Majesty's Government? I would say something to your Lordships that I have said before; namely, that I challenge any Member of this House to provide a workable alternative scenario for Britain outside the European Economic Community. I hope to hear some alternatives to-day, but I have not heard one to date. I would hope that scenario would not be one that involved us in becoming the Tristan da Cunha, or something equivalent, of the North Sea. I still believe that in Europe, with our oil and our skills, we can make a better contribution

921
to the world than if we remain in self-satisfied isolation.
Your Lordships may be aware that I thought the previous Government were far too brusque and aloof, especially in European Economic Community matters. On the Continent, the British behave far too often as if they were Clive in the process of rediscovering India. I am sorry to say that Mr. Callaghan has kept up this tradition in the rather hectoring and dismissive tone of his speech at the recent Council of Ministers. I would never have guessed from that tone that some of the people he was addressing were fellow Socialists.
My Lords, this country has a great role to play in the crucial task of building links between the Community and the United States of America. I welcome what Mr. Callaghan has to say in Clause 18 of his statement to the Council of Ministers on this subject. It is important, so I will read it. Speaking of Her Majesty's Government, Mr. Callaghan says,
"We shall not always be able to agree with the United States, but the Community in devising its procedures and its common positions must always try to work with America whenever it can. Conversely America must try and work with us. Only if the Nine work harmoniously with the United States on both economic issues in the framework of the Community and on political issues in the framework of political co-operation, shall we surmount the difficulties to which President Nixon and Dr. Kissinger have recently drawn attention."
I could not agree more. Let us bury Dr. Kissinger's Declaration of Atlantic Solidarity; he will be happy to pay the funeral tribute. Let us get on with the job of improving communications.
My Lords, if we are to carry out this task, we must retain the confidence of both sides. I am sure that the Foreign Secretary's colleagues have read the Labour Party's Manifesto before, but I doubt they minded hearing it again. But I think what saddened some of the people Mr. Callaghan met in Bonn, and most of his audience in Luxembourg (I cannot say this with confidence, but I am going to Luxembourg to-morrow and I promise to check) was the almost scornful dismissal of those who hope that one day the Community will be something more than a customs union. I find this so hard to understand, because in the House of Commons the other day the Foreign Secretary talked most movingly of the occasion
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when French and German delegates first sat down together after the war in the Council of Europe. Yet in Luxembourg, the Foreign Secretary refused even to meet the President of the European Assembly.
There are many areas of friction between Europe and the United States of America, not least their relations with the oil-producing countries. I understand from the Press that this country is now in agreement with the Community approach. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, can say how Her Majesty's Government propose to reassure the Americans in this context, and whether our standpoint is in fact in accord with the other Member States of the Community. Mind you, I do not think we want to be too pernickety about this, because the United States of America did not choose to consult its allies either about its general Middle Eastern Policy or about its declaration of a State of Emergency. So Europe need not go running to the White House.
There is so much for this country to achieve as part of Europe with a special link with the United States of America. We cannot do it on our own, but Europe must somehow learn what the Russians and the Americans between them are up to, because Europe will have a very uncertain place if the disarmament talks move forward without our point of view being taken into account. I do not want to say to the present Government, "Change your policy in Europe". I will leave that to my colleague in' the European Assembly, the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn. All I am asking is, please reconsider your tone to our partners in the E.E.C., because United States' co-operation in security cannot be detached from Europe's own co-operation in economic and political affairs.
My Lords, at home I have pinned above my desk these words from Thomas Browne's Religio Medici:
"There is no man's mind of such discordant and jarring a temper to which a tuneable disposition may not strike a harmony."
The Foreign Secretary has no need of these words when he is here. But may I commend to him that he might consider putting them in his briefcase when he goes to Europe. Finally, may I say to the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, "Croesaw irty hwn." My Lords, I beg to move for Papers.
3.8 p.m.
BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE: My Lords, I should like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, for giving us the chance to debate this most important and fundamental issue, the relations between Western Europe and the United States of America and the implications for the United Kingdom. First of all, I should like to join with him in paying a tribute to the very great French statesman for whom we mourn today and who I think, perhaps, will always be remembered in this country for the fact that he put his faith in Britain. He asked us to join Europe, and his faith was matched by the votes in both Houses of the British Parliament. Also, may I join the noble Lord in expressing our great sadness to Mme. Pompidou, to his family, and to the people of France as a whole.
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, made a very interesting speech. I think that the tragedy of the death of President Pompidou is that it comes at a time when France and her colleagues in the Community have serious cause to question the belief of Her Majesty's Government in the political necessity of the union of the Nine. The noble Lord rightly talked about this period of movement, stress and fundamental change. I must say to my horror I heard him say that within ten months it might be possible that this country should withdraw from the European Community. But he went on to declare an act of faith himself, when he said that he thought there was no alternative, that Britain should be within the E.E.C., and should have close links with the United States. But there is without doubt a dangerous lack of confidence among our partners in the Community as to Her Majesty's Government's real intentions on renegotiation—not just because the details of Britain's demands have not been revealed, but above all because Her Majesty's Government appear blind to the essential need to work for political unity and for the strength and peace of Europe as a whole. When the Foreign Secretary says he is an agnostic on political union and seems to regard this great endeavour as no more than a customs union, he creates doubt; and where there is doubt there is weakness. Nothing could be more fatal
924
to the security of Western Europe and of the United States.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Baroness can help us, as she is spelling this out in such firm terms: what has she or her Party in mind in terms of political unity in Europe?
BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE: My Lords, we knew about the decision of the Summit Conference, that we were to work towards political union by 1980; and I feel that the political need for Europe to unite is even greater than the economic advantages, although they too are very great indeed.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, could the noble Baroness be a little more helpful, because this is clearly the important point? Does this mean a form of federation, or what? We should like to know what the noble Baroness has in mind when she speaks of political union.
BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE: My Lords, it is not only what I have in mind but what the late Conservative Government were working towards with our eight partners. It is true that we were a long way off achieving it, but the idea was little by little to try to have a convergence of our joint ideas, so that in the end it would be natural that the nine countries would form a European Community and would be able to speak with one voice.
On these Benches we certainly welcome the Foreign Secretary's remarks on the need for good relations between the Nine and the United States. But if the United States is vital to the security of Western Europe, Europe is also vital to the United States as her first line of defence. Within NATO there is, of course, a good measure of understanding, as noble Lords know: such as the achievements of the European Defence Improvement Programme, and the most recent satisfactory German/American offset agreement on the cost of United States forces in Germany. So that when the United States Congress considers the burden of Western European Defence it is worth recalling that European members of NATO provide 90 per cent. of the land forces, 80 per cent. of the naval forces and 75 per cent. of the air forces in Western Europe.

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Good Atlantic relations are, of course, also vital to the future prosperity of Europe. The American trade and payments situation is now stronger than that in Western Europe, and one would therefore conclude that the United States can be more helpful in its trading policy, and in its approach to international monetary reform. The United States has always wanted European nations to unite it has always said so for many years, and for many years it was impatient at our apparent inability to do so. But when, of course, at last it was achieved, for a time it appeared that there was a fear that the Community would become such a powerful trading block that it would be harmful to American interests. But when, for example, the review of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade took place, the Community as a whole took a great deal of trouble to meet the fears of the United States, particularly in relation to compulsory reverse preferences in the negotiations just starting with certain African States.
Therefore, our methods of consultation with the United States are, surely, of prime importance. For example, on the Middle East it is obvious that American power and American diplomacy are essential in the search for peace, as they are also in trying to secure our supplies of oil. On the other hand, it may not be automatically understood across the Atlantic that Europe has an historic interest in the Middle East, and is, of course, far more dependent on imported oil. Therefore, when we consider how we can consult on policy matters that affect both the United States and ourselves and the Community, we must surely ensure that we do not in the course of doing so, damage the integrity of the Nine. For example, we on these Benches do not support the idea, which Press reports claim come from the Foreign Secretary, that American officials should see the working documents of the Nine in the early stages of their preparation. That seems to us to be much too formal, and, as indeed France maintains, this would mean a Europe of Ten.
Therefore, we must develop procedures that ensure that the thinking of the Nine and that of the United States are a constant two-way exchange of ideas, so that neither of us will be given cause to lapse into our own kind of isolationism. I would, therefore, like to ask either the
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noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, or the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, when he comes to wind up, to give us the thinking of the Government on the method of consultation which we should encourage within the Nine, remembering we are members of the Nine, and with the United States, which is not too formal but is constant and is constructive. Of course, as Europeans, we shall not, and we cannot, always agree with the United States, but do let us have our differences out into the open.
It is, I think, true that within the Community we should rather have had longer to shake down together. It may be we are going through all the stages that we used to ascribe to nations emerging to independence: the stage of dependence, after the last war very much so, on the United States; then a long struggle together of the Nine to independence, as some thought, notably France; and then, I hope, to an understanding on both sides of the Atlantic of the true nature of interdependence. Of course, we in the Nine all have inflation, enormous difficulties over energy, changing Governments and social disruption, the kind of scene that leads to nationalism. The United States has domestic problems of great gravity, and the possibility of another Presidential election. But the Atlantic Alliance is vital to all of us on both sides of what the international pilots call the "pond", the Atlantic Ocean. I would think it wise in this time of change and uncertainty to do our best to put our own house in order. Because in this country, surely, small as we are, so dependent on raw materials and imports of food, we need every good friend we can find, and we need to do our best to keep our friends. Therefore, I would only say in conclusion that it is vital for Britain's survival that we should work for the political cohesion of the Nine, because we shall be no kind of ally to America if, by default or by design, we wreck the confidence of Western Europe.
3.18 p.m.
LORD LLOYD OF KILGERRAN: My Lords, may I associate myself with the condolences your Lordships have given to the family of President Pompidou and to the people of France on the sudden death of President Pompidou. I think President Pompidou will occupy a great

927
place in the history of modern France, following as he did the Presidency of President de Gaulle. It required great courage, I think your Lordships will agree, for a man like President Pompidou to follow, working, as he did, right to the end, and I think some of your Lordships will also agree that it probably required greater courage from those of his relatives, his wife and family, who were so close to him during these difficult times.
May I also extend my personal gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, for giving us the opportunity of discussing vital and important matters as to the relations between Western Europe and the United States. The noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, appears to me to have significant qualifications for raising these matters. He is a Cross-Bencher and a member of the European Parliament. He is to be found regularly walking through the corridors at Strasbourg—which has no power—watching the in-fighting and the struggles that appear to take place in those corridors, without the presence of any member from the United Kingdom Labour Party.
May I, as a mere member of the United Kingdom delegation to the Council of Europe and the Western European Union, say that I walked through those same corridors, which again have no power, though they have an atmosphere made pleasant by the senators from 17 nations and not nine and they have also been made more attractive by the very strong team from the United Kingdom Labour Party, who have been most assiduous in their attendances at Strasbourg in the discussions of the Council of Europe and the Western European Union. May I congratulate four of that team who are now members of Her Majesty's Government in the Cabinet, and the other one, who is now the Solicitor General.
I hope that it will not be considered discourteous if I do not follow the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, or the noble Baroness, Lady Tweedsmuir of Belhelvie, in all the issues they have raised before your Lordships today. I propose to confine myself to one fundamental issue relating to defence and foreign affairs; namely the basis of European security and the Atlantic Alliance. I shall hope to
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develop, so far as is possible, a method by which, at least in the short term, machinery can be developed for better co-operation on foreign policy and defence policy between countries of Western Europe, and between those countries and the United States of America.
I am encouraged to take this point with your Lordships because of the suggestion made by the noble Earl, Lord Avon, in the course of the debate on the gracious Speech. He made one suggestion. Your Lordships will recall that the noble Earl had been discussing the problems arising from détente and from defence in the light of his great experience. He went on to say and I quote from column 163 of Hansard dated March 14:
"I have just one suggestion to make about the future of Western Europe itself. We have heard many arguments about the possible reform of the Common Market."
He then said that he did not propose to enter into these possible reforms; nor shall I discuss possible reforms for the Common Market. He went on:
"If progress between the Nine becomes difficult for a while, as almost certainly it will … then it might well be that progress could be made in another direction."
This will be the theme of my address to your Lordships this afternoon. He continued:
"Could not we make more use of W.E.U.? This comparatively modest organisation was intended at the time of its formation, some twenty years ago, to take its place as a leading influence in the new Europe. It has never quite worked out that way."
The noble Earl went on to describe how he made a plea to General de Gaulle about the future of the Western European Union. General de Gaulle had been sympathetic. The noble Earl then proceeded in his speech to give a limited example of activity for the Western European Union. I would strongly recommend the Government to use the Western European Union more. As your Lordships will be aware, the Western European Union comprises seven countries which are all members of the E.E.C. Eire and Denmark at the moment are not members of the Western European Union, but I understand that there would be no procedural difficulties if they wished to join. I understand that there would be little procedural difficulty in

929
getting collaboration with the Government of the United States of America in this forum. As I shall mention later to your Lordships, the Foreign Secretaries of France and Germany have expressed sympathetic views for the use of this forum in the difficult times in which we now find ourselves.
It seems to me that the time has come where we really must be practical and urgently endeavour to establish some kind of new machinery, or certainly a modification of the existing machinery, for greater collaboration not only between the countries of Western Europe but between the countries of Western Europe and the United States. I again make a strong plea to the Government that they should support the use of the Western European Union as a forum for this matter. May I echo the words of the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, and ask your Lordships, rhetorically: what does the ordinary American Congressman consider is happening in Europe at the present time? They see European Community institutions apparently powerless to solve the problems which face Europe. The European Commission seems to them to be losing its role as a motive power in the European Community, and the Council of Ministers seems at the present time to be incapable of taking its place, largely because of the conflict of national interests.
The declarations of the Summit Conferences, to which the noble Baroness referred, at The Hague in December, 1969, Paris in October, 1972, and Copenhagen in December, 1973, were welcomed in the United States of America, but the normal Congressman does not see them at the moment as capable of being put into practical effect at least for some time. There appears to the American to be a paralysis of the European Community institutions, largely due to the failure of these institutions to become subject to effective democratic and Parliamentary control. The Times leader of March 18 summarised the situation so amply: Europe is seen as struggling to reconcile its military dependence with its political and economic aspirations, but is still very unclear about where it is going.
Herr Brandt, speaking on March 28, summed up the position in regard to
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Europe, as he has been reported in the British Press, by saying that it seemed to him that Europe was a sorry tale of in-fighting and stagnation. He went on to say that there could be no system of Western European unity without the security of the Atlantic alliance. On the same day the German Foreign Secretary, Herr Scheel, who is designated to be the President of the Federal German Republic in about six weeks and who has a great reputation in Europe, and indeed the world, urged that there should be urgent consultations with the United States of America, which should not be degraded to a mere exchange of information.
France still refuses to become a member of NATO, yet at the present time it appears that the German Foreign Secretary and the French Foreign Secretary seem sympathetic to the use of the Western European Union as a forum. There has also been during the past few months a growing consensus of opinion among European Parliamentarians and in the U.S.A. that the Assembly of the Western European Union could enable, at least in the short term, effective consultation to take place between the countries of Western Europe on defence and foreign policy matters. Thus, in November last year I had the privilege of hearing Herr Leber, the Defence Minister of the Federal Republic of Germany, speaking at the Assembly of the Western European Union and urging that institutional machinery should be set up for consultations between the countries of Europe and the United States. At the same Assembly meeting we had the privilege of hearing the Foreign Secretary of France, M. Jobert, speaking about defence matters between the member States of the Western European Union, and he favoured using the Western European Union organisation as a forum for further discussions between the Western European countries. May I continue with this modern history in support of the Western European Union?
LORD SLATER: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lord, to say that as an ex-member of the Western European Union, as a delegate like himself, when I was there first there were only six members—now we are given to understand there are seven. Could he tell noble

931
Lords what is to happen to the agreement that was arrived at at the termination of the Second World War concerning what is known as the British sector, the Russian sector and the French sector, bearing in mind all the time the suspicion that Russia has for the rearming of Germany itself, even when this suggestion comes from within the E.E.C.?
LORD LLOYD OF KILGERRAN: My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Slater, for his intervention, but of course there has been a great change in the atmosphere in Europe since the time when the noble Lord was a distinguished member of the United Kingdom delegation which went to the Western European Union. He will know that the Treaty made immediately after the war was modified by the Treaty of 1954; and since then, as a matter of procedure, there have been modifications in relation to the attitudes towards the Western European Union. I was merely reciting to your Lordships the facts known to me and to many others of the attitudes of distinguished Parliamentarians from Western European countries of Europe at the present time.
If I may be allowed shortly to come to my conclusion in this matter, on November 21 last there was a debate in the Assembly of Western European Union on the wider question that consideration should be given to the drawing up of plans for a permanent consultation between the Western European Union and the United States of America. Indeed, from reports dated March, 1974, (which have not yet been published), I am in a position to say that the rapporteur of the General Affairs Committee of the Western European Union is urging, with considerable support from other countries, that it now seems that the natural forum for foreign and defence policy consultations is the forum of the Western European Union.
The matter of defence and the Atlantic Alliance is an urgent and crucial one in its implications for the peace of the world, and I hope therefore that urgent steps can be undertaken by the Government at least to consider whether, in the crisis in which we now find ourselves in foreign policy and foreign affairs, associated not only with the individual Western European countries but also
932
between the Western European countries and the United States of America, the auspices of the Western European Union with its machinery and its organisation can be of assistance to the country at the present time.

E.E.C.: FOREIGN MINISTERS' MEETING
3.33 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS): My Lords, I should like with the leave of the House to repeat a Statement that is being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs about the meeting of Foreign Ministers in Luxembourg on April 1 and 2. The Statement reads as follows:
"With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I will make a statement about the meeting of the Council of Foreign Ministers in Luxembourg on the 1st and 2nd of April.
"Before I begin my report on my visit to Luxembourg, I should like to express the Government's deepest sympathy with the French people at the tragic death of President Pompidou. He was a great French leader who has earned a place of prominence and distinction in the history of France and the world. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister has sent messages to the French Prime Minister and to Madame Pompidou and I have sent a personal message to the French Foreign Minister, Monsieur Jobert. I am certain the House will wish to join with me in offering our most heartfelt condolences to Madame Pompidou and to the people of France at this moment of sorrow and loss.
"On Monday afternoon in Luxembourg I made a statement outlining the broad scope of the issues on which the Government seek a renegotiation of the terms of entry into the Community. They include the unfairness of Britain's budgetary contribution, the effect of the C.A.P. on this country, the need to safeguard the interests of the Commonwealth and of the developing countries and certain problems of the British

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economy. The statement has been published as a Command White Paper.
"In the discussions that followed the members of the Council took note of the position of the Government of the United Kingdom. Some inevitably saw greater difficulties than did others. But on more than one topic the response was clearly sympathetic. No one doubts that difficult negotiations lie ahead. Nor I think does anyone doubt our good faith in the conduct of the negotiations. The first step has been taken. We and the other members of the Community are now preparing for the second step when the Government of the United Kingdom will place before the Council our detailed proposals. Renegotiation has begun.
"In the course of my statement I made clear to the Council that we shall continue to participate in Community business pending the outcome of renegotiation, subject only to our renegotiating position not being prejudiced. The Secretary of State for Trade, the Minister of State at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and I therefore took part in the discussion of a number of detailed items on the Council agenda. I am having a summary account of the outcome of these discussions placed in the Library of the House.
"Late on Monday night and on Tuesday there was an important discussion about political relations between the Nine members of the Community and other countries, particularly the United States. Most of the members present were largely agreed on the vital need to maintain the closest relations with the United States and on the means of doing this. Unfortunately we were unable to achieve unanimity, which I much regret. There will be further discussions about this in a few weeks' time when I hope further progress will be possible."
My Lords, that concludes the Statement. I know that your Lordships would wish me to associate this House with everything that my right honourable friend has said about President Pompidou and will wish to join with me in offering our most heartfelt condolences to Mme. Pompidou and the people of France at this tragic moment.
3.39 p.m.
BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE: My Lords, I should like to thank the Minister for his Statement, and also to associate my noble friends on this side of the House with the tribute that has been paid to a most distinguished and courageous President of France. He was a very good friend of this country. We should certainly like to convey our condolences to Mme. Pompidou, to her son and also to the people of France.
My Lords, in turning to the Statement, is the Minister aware that the mild tone of the Statement conceals the disastrous impression created by the Foreign Secretary at the Council of Ministers' meeting? Taken with the White Paper to which the Statement referred, is the noble Lord also aware that it appears that the Foreign Secretary would not regard the Treaties as binding if he did not get his way? This was described as "a breach of contract" by the President of the European Parliament, whom the right honourable gentleman rudely refused to receive. Is the Minister further aware that some changes such as those in the Common Agricultural Policy were already under discussion, and might be supported, if only we knew what they were? Therefore, we shall have to wait for the detailed proposals. Lastly, is the Minister aware that the whole tone of the Foreign Secretary's blunt performance seemed to take no account of the Community's interest, and is therefore the worst possible way in which to enlist our European colleagues' support?
LORD LLOYD OF KILGERRAN: My Lords, in the course of my speech I have already expressed our condolences to the family of President Pompidou and also to the people of France. As I said, he will have a great place in modern French history.
I thank the noble Lord for repeating the Statement which has been made in another place. I am sure that he will not expect me at the present time to comment in any detail upon the matters in it, but I should like to ask whether he can give the House any indication of the precise reasons why the Foreign Secretary was unable to see the President of the European Parliament when he was over here recently.
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving me the opportunity of saying absolutely categorically that no possible disrespect was intended to the President. It did not prove possible to arrange a meeting during such a short visit—and I say that on the authority of the Secretary of State. Turning to the several points raised by the noble Baroness, I hope she will forgive me, having herself been in this rather difficult position more than once, if I leave out one or two. But may I say that the Foreign Secretary's "bluntness", as she characterised it, was in fact frankness. The Statement which has been published as a Command Paper is sufficient evidence of that and, taken in conjunction with what we know about the Foreign Secretary, it should be an adequate answer to the noble Baroness. It was decided that this Statement should be frank and firm, and that renegotiation should then proceed in the best spirit on the basis of what the Government of the United Kingdom saw as being the outstanding real difficulties which face this country and its economy in conforming with the existing terms of entry.
The point the noble Baroness raised about the abrogation of treaties is arguable. I do not think anybody in this House or anywhere else would regard existing treaties of this character as impossible to change, either in title or in detail. The approach is clearly to attempt to secure fundamental changes on some four main points and only if necessary, as a long stop, to proceed to the point where the Treaty itself might have to be considered as one that was intolerable economically for this country. I hope that that posture of a reasonable approach on the basis of the four main points which we seek to change will be sustained during these negotiations with the support of all Parties in the State, and that we shall not prejudge and shall not anticipate a position of challenge which may never come about.
The other two points which the noble Baroness raised related to matters which I should wish a little more time to look at, but I promise that I will address myself to them in the fullest detail at the earliest possible opportunity.
LORD MAYBRAY-KING: My Lords, Mr. Berkhouwer, my personal friend, is
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doing a great job as Speaker of the European Parliament. Will the noble Lord make clear beyond peradventure that no discourtesy was meant to the Speaker of the European Parliament, Mr. Berkhouwer, by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State's not being able to arrange a meeting with him?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I hope that what I have just said will make it absolutely clear, on the authority of the Secretary of State and certainly with the full concurrence of the Government, that no discourtesy was intended and that in fact it was a practical impossibility to fit in such a meeting.
LORD WINDLESHAM: My Lords, the noble Lord may not know, because he was not with us at the time, that the noble Lord, Lord Maybray-King, myself and others had the great honour of receiving Mr. Berkhouwer when he visited this House at the end of the last Parliament. We take the point that the noble Lord has just explained to the House that no discourtesy was intended, but none the less it would seem, unfortunately, from the Press accounts at any rate, that some ill-feeling has resulted. As a matter of courtesy to the European Parliament, will the Foreign Secretary now arrange an early meeting?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I shall certainly draw the noble Lord's words to the attention of my right honourable friend.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, the noble Lord said that no lack of consideration was intended to the President of the European Parliament, but is it not infinitely worse that Her Majesty's Government's Principal Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs was rude by mistake as opposed to being rude on purpose?
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he is aware that, contrary to the suggestion made by the noble Baroness opposite and the suggestion made by the noble Earl who has just resumed his seat, I take a quite different view? Having regard to the past behaviour of M. Jobert, the French Foreign Minister, and the attitude of the French Government in general, including the late M. Pompidou, towards the United States of America, and the

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millions of dollars that have been injected into Europe together with the vast amount of manpower and equipment that has been provided for Europe in the sphere of defence, and, in spite of that, the attitude of France in contracting out of NATO, in particular—because the whole trouble is about defence, if only noble Lords could understand it, as has been mentioned over and over again—that my opinion, for what it may be worth (and whether or not it is worth anything I shall still express it) is that our Foreign Secretary did not speak bluntly enough and harshly enough. What we require in this matter is straight speaking and a forthright attitude, because it is time that some people who disregard American concern about the defence and security of Europe, for which they have paid immeasurably, realised that it is the vital issue.
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, my noble friend's views and opinions are worth a great deal. He has very great experience and judgment in these matters, and while I would not wish to follow him in everything that he has said I welcome what he said about the need to be definite and frank at the start of these negotiations. Secondly, in regard to our relationship with the United States of America, I am sure he will find—if I am fortunate enough to speak during the debate which this Statement interrupted—that much of what he has said will be echoed by myself and by other speakers from this side of the House.
BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE: My Lords, while I welcome the care with which the noble Lord sought to answer various questions put to him, may I ask him to reply to a question which I put to him earlier? Does he think that the performance of the Foreign Secretary, which I called "blunt" and he called "frank", seemed to take no account of the Community's interest but only of Britain's interest? If one looks at the White Paper, one sees that it states:
"If renegotiations do not succeed, we shall not regard the Treaty obligations as binding upon us."
It goes on:
"… whilst the negotiations proceed … we shall stop further processes of integration".
This is a threat and is almost like a kind of blackmail. Does the noble Lord think
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that this is a good way to get the European Community to help us renegotiate?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I hope that the noble Baroness will not quote the Continental Press too freely in describing in those words my right honourable friend's approach. The fact is that it is not only a narrow British interest that is involved. Many of us believe that the durability and success of European Union does depend on there being a more rational and fairer arrangement in regard to benefits and contributions. In this sense the frank British initiative may well turn out to be of benefit to the rest of the Community.
LORD MERRIVALE: My Lords, is it not rather regrettable that the Foreign Secretary, while trying to convince our partners that Her Majesty's Government are renegotiating from within the Community, should during the two days in Luxembourg have given the impression to our partners that the Foreign Secretary was psychologically outside Europe?
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, of course the noble Lord has a right to his impressions. My own impression, and that of a great many people in Europe and in this country, is that this is not so, and that psychologically the right honourable gentleman has placed himself in the right posture; that is, to lay down frankly what is troubling us—and I suspect not only people on this side of the House—about the terms of entry. He has explained the position in frank terms and he proposes to follow up with detailed facts and figures, possibly as early as the next meeting of the Council of Ministers on the provisionally arranged date of May 7; and this is the right approach. I hope that nothing will be said which will, as it were, consign these negotiations into a posture of confrontation. This is not my right honourable friend's intention or objective. He means to negotiate on the basis of getting adaptations on these four subjects, and only if it is proved impossible to get these will he consider de novo what our attitude should be.
LORD BLYTON: My Lords, is the Minister aware that the bluntness of the Foreign Secretary in Luxembourg is highly appreciated by the populace outside? Is he further aware that there is a need for bluntness to tell the European

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Economic Community how disgraceful were the terms which the Tories accepted for us to go into the Common Market and that they are not acceptable to the people of this country.
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, we expect that bluntness, as well as frankness, will be greatly appreciated in the part of Britain from which my noble friend comes.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, on the point of bluntness, may I suggest that we move to the next speaker in the debate?

WESTERN EUROPE/UNITED STATES RELATIONS
3.54 p.m.
Debate resumed.
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I feel that I should apologise perhaps for inflicting myself so soon for a second time on your Lordships, but we turn now to the debate on the Motion, so interestingly and ably moved by the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, and to which the noble Baroness, Lady Tweedsmuir of Belhelvie, made what I thought was an extremely interesting and substantial contribution. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, is not still in his place because I wanted to pay my respects to one or two points which he made in his speech. I may be able to do so later.
LORD BYERS: My Lords, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, is probably under the misapprehension that the Channel Tunnel Statement was about to be made.
LORD LLOYD OF KILGERRAN: My Lords, I had an urgent matter to attend to outside the Chamber, and I thought the noble Lord was about to make another Statement.
LORD GORONWY-ROBERTS: My Lords, I meant my observation as one of friendship and respect for one or two suggestions that the noble Lord made. I found what he had to say about the role of the Western European Union worth considering, and there is continuous consideration of the role of the W.E.U. What the noble Lord had to say about it was worth listening to: I wanted to say just
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that and then observed that he was not in his place to hear the kind words I wanted to utter.
The North Atlantic Alliance, and the commitment of the United States to the defence of Western Europe which it embodies, is the cornerstone of British security. That is one point on which we and the previous Government are in complete agreement. The maintenance of close and harmonious transatlantic relations is thus a matter of fundamental importance. We must remember that both the economic recovery of Western Europe after the war and the maintenance of almost thirty years of peace and relative stability in Europe have been due in large measure to the existence of the Alliance and to the close identity of interests between the United States and Western Europe; and here of course what my noble friend had to say is most apposite. To-day, the prospects for a relaxation of the level of military confrontation between East and West, and for a more hopeful era of co-operation between the two halves of our continent, are brighter than they were in the days of the cold war. I must be cautious on this point, but I think we are entitled to cautious optimism. Since the days of the cold war these prospects for co-operation, even for arms control and disarmament, are somewhat brighter; and that, too, is due in large part to the cohesion of the Alliance and to the initiatives taken together by its member countries. For us the Alliance is important, not only as an instrument of defence but also as an instrument of détente.
Of course the members of the Alliance do not see eye to eye on every point; there are bound from time to time to be differences of approach and emphasis. No one would deny that there is a certain malaise in the Alliance and that the solidarity and unity of its members, which perhaps has been taken for granted for too long, has come under some strain. The past few years have seen a succession of rapid changes in the economic, monetary and political circumstances in which the countries of Western Europe and North America find themselves, and these changes have inevitably generated pressures in transatlantic relations. But we should not exaggerate the extent of our problems. Though some of them might express the point differently, all our

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Allies agree that the Alliance is indispensable for the foreseeable future. We must build on that.
The foundation of the transatlantic relationship is, of course, security. The presence of substantial American forces in Europe, the outward symbol of the U.S. nuclear guarantee, is essential for the security of Western Europe and of the whole Atlantic area. We have welcomed the assurances given in the past by President Nixon that, provided the other members of the Alliance follow suit, he will maintain and improve U.S. forces in Europe and not reduce them, except in the context of a reciprocal East/West agreement. President Nixon's remarks at Houston on March 19 show that this is still his view. For our part, we fully recognise the need for the European allies to play their full part in the common defence. This does not mean of course that we regard the present level of forces as sacrosanct. Her Majesty's Government will make a positive contribution to the negotiations in Vienna for mutual and balanced force reductions.
In that context, of course, the level of ground forces will be reviewed from time to time, and given international agreement through these talks—the Vienna talks—one would hope, and indeed expect cautiously, for a levelling down. We hope that these negotiations will result in agreements that will permit a lowering of the level of the forces deployed by the two Alliances in Central Europe; but it would be wrong to preempt the outcome of these negotiations by making substantial unilateral reductions in our defences. Our own expenditure on defence must be considered, of course, in the light of our overall economic capacity. We have already indicated that we think that our defence efforts should not be out of line with those of our major European allies. This is once more the principle of reasonable equity in regard to benefits and contributions. But we have also stressed that the requirements of NATO will be the first call on the measures we can make available for defence.
We recognise in addition that the European members of the Alliance must maintain a substantial responsibility for ensuring their own defence. It was my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer who, as Secretary of State for
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Defence in the last Labour Government, was instrumental in the establishment of the Euro-Group in promoting a greater degree of co-operation and collaboration among European countries in the defence field. These efforts have been welcomed and encouraged by the Americans and we hope that they will continue to flourish. We realise too that the United States Administration is concerned about the foreign exchange costs of the maintenance of its forces in Europe. This problem has been under discussion in the Alliance and we hope that a satisfactory solution can be found. That is a problem which the British Government face as well, since we also maintain substantial portions of our armed forces on the mainland of Europe.
A close relationship with the Americans is thus vital for our defence. But as my right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary has stated in another place, we do not believe that it is possible to sustain indefinitely a close alliance with the Americans on defence matters without parallel co-operation on matters of trade, money, energy, and so on. I do not claim, of course, that an identical attitude towards every issue will be possible or even desirable. European countries—this country included—have their own interests which in certain fields, for instance in issues of commercial or agricultural policy, may not always coincide with those of the United States. But and I do emphasise this point, the majority of problems that face us cannot be tackled on a purely regional basis. A global approach is necessary and America is a vital partner in any issue of global importance. Against this background nobody will be surprised if we emphatically reject the view that the only way Europe can establish an identity for itself is by a constant dissociation of its policies from those of the United States. We believe a spirit of compromise, of give and take, is necessary on both sides.
On the economic side the Government give their full support to the trade negotiations in the GATT. The United States Administration is also seeking a mandate to take part in these negotiations. It is essential that we should approach the negotiations constructively together with the aim of working out measures that will encourage the continued expansion of

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international trade to the benefit of all parties to the negotiations. There is also an urgent need to press ahead with the work that is being carried out on the reform of the international monetary system. There are perhaps two ways at least of dealing with our monetary problem: we could concentrate on national measures to the exclusion of getting a more harmonious international system or we can work to encourage freer international trade and investment through co-ordinated international action. The Government are convinced that Europe must work closely with the United States in dealing with these problems. Here I would interpose that the discussions which have taken place in Luxembourg this week, and will continue, about the way in which (not whether, but how) there should be constructive and positive consultation between the United States and Europe, are of the utmost importance to both sides of the Atlantic and must succeed.
I think the House will do well to accept that there is really no basic disunity in Europe about the need for very close consultation with the United States. There are real difficulties about how to do it. I think I was asked earlier whether I could indicate how Her Majesty's Government could build up the machinery of consultation and what our approach would be. We are working on this matter, but I should like to give the House the assurance that we are working with a view to making the consultation as full and as early as possible and are hoping to carry with us our European friends and allies in the Community.
The creation of a strong and united Europe is an aim which has been welcomed by successive American Presidents. Good and close relations with the United States are in no way incompatible with the creation of a stronger and more self-confident Western Europe. Far from it: we envisage our relations with our American and European allies as complementary and we see no reason or need to choose between the two. That is why we think it is so important to develop the closest relations of cooperation between the countries of Europe. Central to this aim is Franco-German conciliation, which has been one of the most heartening developments in
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the post-war era. It is because we wish to make our own contribution to the strengthening of these relationships that my right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary said in another place:
"Our approach as a Government will be to intensify the system of political consultation and co-operation and, in so far as it is possible, to work out common positions through joint discussion with the Community countries."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons, 19/3/74, cols. 863–4.]
In this context I should like to say a word about the proposed talks with the Arab States—a subject on which possibly there has been some considerable misunderstanding. When he met his colleagues in Luxembourg earlier this week, my right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary told them that the United Kingdom could now agree to the establishment of a dialogue between the Community and the Arab world. But we would not want this to cut across Dr. Kissinger's peace efforts in the Middle East, and we see no reason why it should. We believe that other European Governments do not want that, either. But we have still to work out the best means of keeping in touch with the Americans to ensure that there is no conflict in practice in the timing of their actions and our own. We shall be discussing the problem further with other Governments of the European Community. We also attach the greatest importance to co-operating with the United States and with other major consuming countries, as well as with producers, to deal with the problems arising from the massive increase in oil prices. The calling of the Washington Energy Conference was an imaginative step. We shall continue to co-operate closely with the Americans in the follow-up work of that conference.
Clearly there has recently been publicly expressed concern about the state of transatlantic relations, but this at least has had the effect of making Europeans—and we are Europeans—think hard about the fundamental nature of their relationship with the United States. I believe that this hard thinking and this frank talking will be beneficial to everybody concerned. We need to ensure that we are equipped to meet new challenges, and that Europe and North America have the means of working out solutions together. We should remind ourselves

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that our interests put us essentially side by side on the same side of the table on most issues. There is very little that divides us apart from the Atlantic, and so much that binds us together.

THE CHANNEL TUNNEL PROJECT
4.12 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I feel that I must apologise to your Lordships' House for intervening now to repeat the Statement on the Channel Tunnel that was promised earlier in the afternoon. I did not intervene on the previous Statement in the hope that we should have received clearance for this one; and the irony is that if I had waited only two more minutes we could then have proceeded directly to this Statement and I should not have had to interrupt this important debate again. The Statement which has been made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment in another place is as follows:
"On October 25 last year, my colleagues and I, then on the Opposition Benches, divided the House on an Amendment which stated that while we were not opposed in principle to a Channel Tunnel, we declined to approve the scheme in its present form and demanded an inquiry into alternative transport strategies. In line with this attitude, the Government have decided that a full and searching reassessment of the project should be carried out before any decision is taken to embark on the main works.
"The current Phase II already provides for a joint reassessment of the traffic, revenue and financial forecasts in the light of changes in, for example, the energy outlook. But I shall in addition, as a matter of urgency, consider whether the studies now in hand fully cover the points which we and others raised in the last Parliament, and I propose to seek outside advice on this. In particular, I shall examine with the French Government and the Railways Board the need to orientate the project more strongly towards through rail services.
"I have concluded that to keep open the option of eventually going ahead with the Tunnel it would be right for
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Phase II to take its course. I shall therefore reintroduce the Channel Tunnel Bill. In order to avoid abortive costs to petitioners I shall introduce it in the same form as in the last Session. I stress that the object of proceeding with Phase II is to keep our options open. It does not prejudge any decision on the project beyond the end of the present phase.
"Before Phase II ends in the summer of next year, I shall report the outcome of the reassessment to the House. Parliament and the Government will then have finally to decide whether or not to sign Agreement No. 3 and build the Tunnel."
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, for repeating this Statement; and, as this is the first opportunity that I have had to congratulate him on his new job as Leader of the House, I should like to do so, and to congratulate him equally on inheriting my private secretary. I am sure he will be well looked after.
My Lords, we very much welcome the fact that the Statement says the Government are to go ahead with Phase II and that we shall have the Channel Tunnel Bill in the form in which it was originally introduced into the House, not only because we are sure this is the right way to proceed but because, of course, there would have been very undesirable consequences for the petitioners if the Bill had not been reintroduced in its original form. However, I should like to ask the noble Lord in what way his further assessment differs from the assessments which were always allowable under the second phase of the Channel Tunnel proposals. My understanding of the position was that it was always possible for us to reconsider the matter in the light of any evidence that was produced. Is he suggesting some further reassessment, other than that for which provision was made?
The Statement refers to "alternative transport strategies", and I should like to ask what this means. It suggests something long-term, but I gather from a later paragraph in the Statement that it is going to be looked at "as a matter of urgency". I should also like to ask him what is meant by, "orientating the project more strongly towards through

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rail services". Does this mean through rail services to London? Does it mean a rail-only tunnel? I do not think that is very clear. Perhaps the noble Lord could also indicate who are the other outsiders, who are to be asked to give advice on this matter, besides the French Government and the British Railways Board. Is he, for example, going to take into account the views of local authorities, and in particular the Kent County Council? There will be a number of people in Kent who will naturally be very concerned if there is to be further uncertainty about this project in the areas where they live.
LORD BYERS: My Lords, I hope the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, will forgive me if I ask: is this further re-assessment really necessary? Surely nothing has been re-assessed so often as the Channel Tunnel during the last hundred years, and surely the French Government must at least have satisfied themselves on the viability of the project. I should also like to ask the noble Lord: can we be certain that in a time of chronic inflation there will not be such delay occurring as a result of re-assessment that we shall escalate the costs even further than they will be escalated as a result of inflation itself? May I finally ask him, if it is decided not to go ahead after Phase II, what is the amount of money which will have been spent and lost, which I understand will in fact be private enterprise money and not necessarily Government money?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness and the noble Lord. I am indeed glad that I have inherited the noble Baroness's private office, and I hope they will do as well for me as they undoubtedly did for the noble Baroness. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Byers, the Statement means that the re-assessment which was always within the understanding of previous Administrations and which is provided for in the agreement with the French will proceed, and that will not cause delay in any way if a decision is finally made to go ahead. There will be no delay in such developments. My Lords, in answer to the noble Baroness, we intend that the re-assessment shall be very much on the lines which the previous Administration
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had in mind, but we feel that there is a case for taking outside advice. At this stage I would not wish to go any further as to where or how that advice will be sought; but clearly the Secretary of State wishes to have further advice made available to him.
With regard to orientation towards through rail services, there was a very strong feeling in another place, and I believe in your Lordships' House also, that this project should be more orientated towards rail services. I am not sure how practicable it is (this is a further reason for reassessment) but certainly many would like to see more through-services from other parts of the United Kingdom, so avoiding the possible congestion, or the real congestion, that will arise in the White City Complex and also in Folkestone. In regard to the bodies with whom we shall consult, names have been specified in the Statement. I would agree with the noble Baroness that one does not wish to raise more anxieties than there have been in the past; but, of course, since the Channel Tunnel Bill is, unfortunately for your Lordships' House, a hybrid Bill, there will be an opportunity for those who have a case to put against the Bill to raise these matters. It is the intention of the Government to carry out a full reassessment as soon as possible and, as we say in the Statement, on that reassessment a further Statement will be made to Parliament.
LORD GEORGE-BROWN: My Lords, would my noble friend allow me to ask him not to be too easily seduced by the arguments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Byers? That is exactly how we got into the disaster of Concorde. Those of us who in 1964 and 1965 thought it was right to cancel that ridiculous commitment were led astray, or rather overborne by colleagues—and the noble and learned Lord who sits on the Woolsack will know exactly what I mean—who argued along exactly the same lines as the noble Lord, Lord Byers. May I ask my noble friend: if this ugly beast's throat is to be cut, will he please tell us how much we have spent until now, do the blood-letting and get rid of the bloody thing?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, in response to my noble friend's Parliamentary language, I am sorry that he

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reminded me about an omission deliberately made in response to the noble Lord, Lord Byers. If we were to cancel now, the cost to Her Majesty's Government would be of the order of £10 million; but the feeling is that we should make a full assessment of this project, on the basis of which advice will be offered to Parliament. It will then he for Parliament to make a decision as to whether to proceed with the project.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, may I welcome the decision that has been made, particularly from the point of view of the railway? I believe this is quite right: it is something we pressed for when the matter was discussed previously in this House. I hope the direction will be such as to take some of the traffic away from the roads, which would certainly be very desirable. I certainly welcome the Government's decision to proceed immediately to Stage 2, and I also welcome the assurance given by the noble Lord that there will be no delay in going beyond that stage if the reassessment gives reason for believing that we should do so—and I think that we ought to, despite the fact that I have not seen any reassessment.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I have a great affection for my noble friend, and I thank him very much for what he has said. However, I do not intend to be drawn further on this matter.
LORD POLWARTH: My Lords, would Her Majesty's Government give an assurance that in connection with the question of through-rail services consideration will not be given only to through services from the Continent as far as London but will also include services to other parts of Britain, not excluding Scotland? Unless that is so, my Lords, there will be very little support for the project from those parts of the country.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, this is clearly a factor which the Government will bear in mind.
LORD DAVIES OF LEEK: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that my noble friend Lord George-Brown, with his usual perspicacity, has hit the nail right on the head so far as taking the judgment of other people regarding the costs is concerned? May I ask my noble friend to say whether the reassessment will halt the surveying and the building of a rail- 950
way and the environmental upsurge that will be caused by building a new rail centre into London? Finally, is my noble friend now reaching the conclusion that to study the possibility of building a bridge might be a better project?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, of one point I am sure—there is no alternative to a tunnel. Regarding the continuing work under Phase 2, this is mainly concerned with investigations into the possible project, the borings and the like. However, I can assure my noble friend that this does not involve any form of genuine capital development.
LORD RHODES: My Lords, is the noble Lord the Leader of the House aware that the Statement he has made will give great satisfaction in the North of England as to a reassessment of this project? We have been appalled at the prospect of the concentration of earth-moving equipment and of resources, when houses need to be built. Houses must now be the first priority, and not this Channel Tunnel.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, clearly the question of resources is involved in any consideration of this matter, but I think the House will judge the Government to be right in not taking any precipitate decision and that it will permit the Government to carry forward under Phase 2 a further assessment of the situation so that a judgment may be made following the reassessment.
LORD GEORGE-BROWN: My Lords, when my noble friend Lord Goronwy-Roberts was so rudely interrupted by my noble friend who has just sat down, I was not quite sure whether my noble friend had resumed his seat or not. If I may intrude upon the courtesy of my noble friend and that of the House, may I ask him a question before he does resume his seat?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I am sorry but I must say that I think the noble Lord would be stretching even the endurance of your Lordships' House if he were to suggest that my noble friend had only just sat down. I think that if my noble friend wishes to put a question he should do so later in the debate. I can understand and sympathise with the noble Lord, but if we were to let him get away with it this time I fear there would be no end to it.

WESTERN EUROPE/UNITED STATES RELATIONS
4.26 p.m.
Debate further resumed.
LORD GORE-BOOTH: My Lords, in rising at this moment, I hope your Lordships will forgive me if I feel a little as though I were trespassing on two battlefields of a friendly kind, where the smoke is still swirling around, not to mention the earth-moving equipment, the submarines and so on. But I will try to collect my thoughts as quickly as possible and present to your Lordships something coherent, even if it is not particularly novel. May 1 just add one word to the many expressions of sympathy to France at this moment in the loss of M. Pompidou. Not only will M. Pompidou have an honourable place in French history but he will also have one in British history, because whatever one may think about our membership of the European Community, it was M. Pompidou who gave us the possibility of joining it.
If I may, I should like to begin with a look at the map and then go on to a few points about the European Atlantic relationship and, unavoidably, to a point or two concerning the events of the last few days in regard to the unity of Europe. First, I should like to thank my colleague on the Cross-Benches, the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, for bringing up this subject at so topical and opportune a time. If the sentiments I express appear to be very similar to his, I can assure the House that we have not broken the good Cross-Bench convention of non-collusion.
If we look at a map of the world, perhaps we might begin with the Eurasion heartland, with the two Communist empires. We start with China, at the moment pursuing a quiet, consolidatory policy so far as the outside world is concerned, and also strengthening its nuclear capacity at a great rate. This has a certain effect on the policy of the other Communist empire, that of the Soviet Union, because it has a certain effect on Soviet attitudes towards Western Europe—attitudes which are both positive and negative, which I shall come to in a moment. In the meantime, the Soviet Communist empire continues its existence as a Power in which the constituent members of the empire have no independence of their own because all the
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orders come from Moscow. Therefore, although, as the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts has so rightly pointed out. we are in a better détente situation than we were at the time of the Cold War, this is largely because the late Mr. Khrushchev had at least assured the world that in the ideological conflict the use of force was in fact useless. As against this, we are still in the presence of a country which continues to increase its armaments at great speed, to station its armed forces in different places round the world; and that still confirms what so many noble Lords have already said, that the North Atlantic Alliance must remain for the time being a cornerstone of the West's foreign policy.
We then come, when we have looked at those two parts of our world, to look at Africa and Latin America, non-committed in the aggregate. We find ourselves left with the peripheral countries of great importance like Japan, Australia and New Zealand, and we find ourselves with a central bloc—if you regard the Atlantic at the moment as a lake rather than an ocean—of the United States and Western Europe. If we then separate that aggregation into the United States on the one hand and Western Europe on the other, we have to come to the conclusion that Western Europe is going to need the United States' presence as well as support in a potential defence for a considerable time to come. Therefore all of us must welcome the assurances which the present Government have given to the importance they attach to the connection with the United States and, conversely, as Mr. Callaghan put it, the impossibility of imagining a Europe exclusive of United States' co-operation.
May I now continue on the matter of why things seem to have gone somewhat wrong lately, and whether there is anything we can do about it. I mean by that, of course, the transatlantic dialogue. In order to instruct myself a little on the difficulties of this, just after the Election I paid a week's listening visit to Brussels and Paris. If the House will allow me, I will put in a footnote to that point: that having done part of this tour by plane and part by rail. I cannot wait for a fast train which will take me from the middle of London to the middle of Paris—the quicker the better, and the better it will be for the environment, too, in terms of aircraft noise.

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The difficulty, as we all know, of this position is the attitude of France. I took very special steps to try to get to the bottom of why in this matter we always seem to have the French in a minority of one. It emerged most clearly in this way. First, there is no doubt that our French friends have obsessed themselves with a kind of nightmare view of the United States. The famous book by J. J. ServanSchreiber, Le défi A méricain, The American Challenge, and other things have built up a psychosis in France that France is bound to be hurt by any intimate contact with the United States. That has developed itself further into what has become in many French eyes a philosophy; and the philosophy is that we must build up Europe as it were behind shuttered windows, and in due course when all of us have agreed among ourselves on what Europe is to be, then we can open the shutters and say, "Here we are" and we start talking to the United States. This is all in the intellectual name in France of Cartesian logic, in honour of the famous French classical philosopher, Descartes. Perhaps the best comment on that is the crisp remark which I had from another Latin friend who said, "I am just as Latin as my French friends, just as good a Cartesian, but I do not agree with a word of it."
In this context I can only say that the Government should continue the laborious job of trying to convince our French friends that in this they are wrong. This is difficult (I have tried it myself, without the slightest success, in my professional capacity) and it is also a difficult matter of French internal policy into which I need not go at this time. But there is a very obdurate sense behind this and there is no alternative but to go on patiently being thankful that the French remain within the Alliance, and try to convince them that at least some of their fears are groundless, and that others in Europe can maintain a perfectly good independence without shutting their doors against the United States.
One of the difficulties of this has been—and it has been mentioned—that Dr. Kissinger for once displayed faulty timing in trying to launch a doctrinal appeal to Europe in April, 1973, on the Atlantic front. It should have been understood that whereas a quarter of a century ago an appeal of that kind from Washington
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would have had great and immediate effect on us, that time has passed. This is not necessarily to the credit of the Europeans, but it is a fact. If there is going to be this universal faith in NATO and a continuous improvement in NATO in one way or another, it has to be done by the more laborious process of quiet consultation.
This brings me to the point on which I was glad to hear what the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, said. If he had not said it, I was going to suggest it as my own idea. There should be research into the matter of machinery of consultation. Consultation is not easy; even between two Powers who agree, things get forgotten, misdirected or blurred, and there is a great deal of hard feeling over what may be purely a mechanical mistake. The machinery of eight countries consulting one, or vice versa, is going to be a very intricate one and is going to involve a great deal of mutual trust. If it is to be prompt and satisfactory it may involve among the eight or nine countries a certain delegation of authority, whether to the Secretary-General of NATO (who is also chairman of the NATO Council) or to a small group. It is easy to say that in future we will consult, but it must be done right, and I welcomed what the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, said about the thought which is being given to this matter.
If the transatlantic understanding is to remain firm, of course the question of what we ourselves do in the matter of Defence should be satisfactorily regulated and decided. Anyone who watched the Panorama "programme" on television last Monday evening will be grateful to the B.B.C. for letting us have a little longer of President Nixon without the benefit of Watergate, because he explained the point which the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, has mentioned in the American political context. It is not that if Europeans do not play their part the United States Government will say, "We have had enough of you". What he said was—and in American political terms this is a fact—"If I do not get support in a sufficient degree from Europe, I cannot present a Bill to Congress to which they will agree in continued support of European Defence." That is a political fact in American Constitutional terms.

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Therefore, to that I must append a slight warning to the Government that they will have to be very careful about any ideas of reductions in the Defence budget. It may be possible to explain that whatever reductions they make will have no effect on the essentials of our contribution to European Defence. This does not necessarily mean, in geographical terms, confinement to European waters, but it will be important, after the emphasis which the Government have placed on their relations with the United States, that there should not be immediately a reduction in some part of the Defence budget which seems to contradict what they have been advocating on the political side.
One must inevitably turn to the events of the past few days, if only because it is no good talking about a European-American community of purpose if we are unable to participate in a real unity in Europe. I purposely shirk the question of what "unity" in that context means. I mean it in the general sense that if there is disunity in Western Europe, then there is not much sense in talking about concord between America and Western Europe. The Americans would not thank us in the very least, even in their present-day sober mood, if we could be held responsible for "busting" the Community. That is absolutely clear.
Before I make a couple of criticisms, I should certainly like to pay one compliment. I think all of us must have been impressed, and I should like to mention it here, at the very successful mission performed in Brussels by Fred Peart, Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. Mr. Peart conducted this mission with great expertness and discretion, and undoubtedly great pertinacity. He came back with an extremely good result. I think that that particular negotiation, apart from being a tribute to the Minister himself, also showed that when approached in the right way there is quite a lot of give among our Community partners when they are convinced that there is some real British interest at stake over which they must help. I am quite sure that they will continue to feel that way.
I come to the more difficult part of what has happened; namely, whether
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anything that was done this week could have been done somewhat differently. When I last intervened in your Lordships' House on the Queen's Speech, I modestly suggested that the great trap in the way of what the Government might be going to do was to forget that we are dealing with the Community from within the Community at present. We are not talking to "them"; we are talking to "us" from our position as a member. I had hoped perhaps that notice might be taken of that suggestion. But I regret to say that if one reads carefully the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary's speech in another place about foreign affairs, in the very first paragraph he speaks about, "our relations with the Community".
I am also sorry—but I have to agree with the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, in this matter—that again when you listened on the air possibly owing to the tenseness of the situation, there was a tendency all through to talk about the Community as "them". The Community, as I say again, are not, "them", they are our friends and partners to whom we owe some warmth, some friendship which we should express even in the middle of bargaining with the utmost polite ferocity. That is the tone in which these things should be done. I have every sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Blyton, but the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary said that he is not negotiating with Nottinghamshire, he is negotiating with France, Germany and the rest. There should be a particular spirit about this negotiation because after all, and this was questioned on the programme, too, the Community have accomplished great things; to mention only one, the Common External Tariff which is a most remarkable accomplishment.
Further, if I may go on to my last points which concern the White Paper. First, perhaps in a slightly less serious vein, I found page 2 of the White Paper a little bizarre. I should just like to suggest to the Conservative and Liberal Leadership that they make sure that their Election Manifestos are communicated to the same addresses, and perhaps through the usual or unusual channels there could be an exchange of addresses. But apart from whether there is a propriety about this, I find that the White Paper is a little devalued by a load of words from the Cliché Secretariat like,

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"root and branch", and, "draconian", and so on. Let us dispense with that. There seemed to me to be two major faults which I hope that in any further expression of British opinion may be avoided. One is that there does seem from the White Paper to be no recognition—I may have missed it—that possibly other people have problems with the workings and the economics of the Community—because they do. If on some particular point we have a problem about prices, they may have a problem about employment. We really must expressly recognise this all the time if in the process of negotiation we are going to get give and take on both sides, and not simply claim privilege on our side.
One other point. Much play is made in the White Paper of our lower rate of growth than that of some Continental countries. I wonder whether Ministers are aware what that implies? It implies that not only have we a lower growth rate now, but that we shall go on having a lower growth rate than France and Germany and others in the future. I just refuse to make that admission. I am sure we can do better than that. Our arguments should not be founded on a proposition of that kind. Particularly do I find this embarrassing when the day after the Statement we are saying to ourselves not only have we got a lot more coal, which the continentals have not got, but we are going to have a lot more oil than even we thought before. The two propositions are not, as the French say, conciliable.
I therefore plead very strongly with the Government for a more give-and-take attitude towards this matter of expressions which does not—and I repeat it again with all emphasis—preclude the hardest of bargaining when the bargaining begins. There are all sorts of difficulties about this. Perhaps I may make one very serious remark about the duty in a situation like this of whoever is the spokesman for this country, be it the Foreign Secretary or one of his deputy Ministers—and I do not think the noble Lord, Lord George-Brown, will disagree with me on this. The post of Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary has very great privileges and a certain flexibility of operation which his colleagues do not enjoy. As against this he has one terrible cross to bear; that is that on occasion he may be convinced that the long-
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term and real interests of his country are such to contradict in some measure the urgent short-term feelings of a number of the people. That is his cross. It is important to bear in mind that this may happen to anyone who is speaking for this country in a context of this kind.
Perhaps my final point is fortified in saying these words of muted criticism, if your Lordships wish. It is without reference to any Party, any individual, but I just worry very much about a tendency we seem to be developing in this country of speaking rather loud and thinking rather little. I was hoping very much that we would have a little more of an affirmative reply about the Channel Tunnel. I am happy that the reply is not negative. But we really must, in our small cares which are very real, not lose the ability to think big. We probably shall have to cut down on this or that big project, probably Maplin, in the present financial situation. But we must not look at projects and say that because they are big we cannot undertake them, because that is not the spirit of our people and it is not the way we are going to get out of our present depressions. So, I hope, finally, that we may look at our relations with the United States, our relations with Europe, and our relations among ourselves, with a certain, not disproportionate, but genuine bigness of thought and ambition.
4.50 p.m.
LORD ARDWICK: My Lords, the death in office of an executive President is always an event of great historical importance in the life of a nation; for a nation with such a system loses at once its Sovereign citizen and its chief political leader. The grief is not increased thereby, of course, but the shock to the nation is twofold. So to-day we must stand apart for a moment from our unhappy relations with France and express our sympathies in the death of President Pompidou. Those of us who believe it was right for Britain to join the European Community must recall (as the noble Lord who has just spoken recalled) that it was he, as President of France, who pronounced the final, Yes. Yet his death, which he so bravely faced, and which came at too early an age, may have a constructive effect; for there is now likely to be a halt in European development over several months. That

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will give time for the new Government here to become more familiar with the day-to-day practice of the Community; perhaps to become more sensitive about its prejudices, and to think out in greater and realistic detail the reforms proposed by Mr. Callaghan two days ago. It will also give time for the more ardent Europeans to get over the anger they were expressing yesterday.
I think that some noble Lords opposite were taking the speech, and the criticisms of the speech from Europe, rather too simply. The last thing the Europeans were expecting from us was a humble address beseeching the nations of the Community to make life easier for Britain. They expected something rough indeed. M. Jobert, more like a journalist than a politician, wrote his answer on Saturday to the speech Mr. Callaghan was going to make on the Monday. I myself, reading the speech, thought it was firm but extremely courteous in its whole approach. Some of the criticism in the Press to-day is absolutely fantastic. One French newspaper calls Mr. Callaghan, Tartuffe. It is the first time I have heard a man who is accused of being too candid called a hypocrite. Then there is Le Monde, usually so well disposed to us and so balanced in its judgment, which regards my right honourable friend the Minister for Trade, Mr. Peter Shore, as being like Marshal Malinovsky, sitting dominating Mr. Khrushchev. I do not think that or that my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary felt that he was being dominated in this way.
However, one must admit that the Europeans, even if they were just reacting in the expected way with the expected rhetoric, were rather upset in the way that many members of my Party in the past were upset when we made an attempt to revise Clause IV of the Labour Party constitution: a clause which, I may remind noble Lords opposite, embodied the dream of the complete Socialist Utopia. It was an attack on a sacred myth and, looking back on it, many of us now see that we made a great political error in pressing for a pragmatic revision. Better to let myths, whether they are Socialist myths or European myths about federal union, die a natural death, or he strengthened and made into a reality by the course of events.
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Much of what my right honourable friend said at Luxembourg was of course exemplary, especially his insistence that he wants the negotiations to succeed. And he showed some care about semantics, too. He knew that the word "renegotiation" was bitterly disliked, so he tempered it by saying, "what we in Britain have come to call renegotiation'." Of course, I have some minor criticisms. I think that on reflection he will wonder whether it was wise to include those chunks of the Election Manifesto. If I may adapt Aneurin Bevan, the language of the Manifesto is hardly the religion of Europeanism. But what has pleased me, as an ardent European, has been Mr. Callaghan's recognition of the premier importance of the Atlantic Alliance. It was this that I pleaded for in the speech I made to your Lordships in the debate on the Address. It was a prominent feature of Mr. Callaghan's maiden speech as Foreign Secretary, of his speech at Luxembourg, and again yesterday when the question of United States/Common Market relations was raised there in an immediate and practical form.
There is, of course, a limit to British Atlanticism. If anybody believes that a withdrawal from Europe by Britain could be followed by a restoration of the old special relationship, he is believing the impossible. America's interests lie not in a special relationship with Britain but with the whole of Western Europe. Mr. Kissinger's recent accusations, recriminations and lamentations, followed by his healing recantations, must be seen as evidence of the importance he puts on the European connection. A détente with the Soviet Union would have little meaning if Western Europe isolated herself from the United States—little meaning for the United States or for Western Europe, either. My own belief is that, no matter how far Western Europe is able to go in the creation of a joint foreign policy, what neither we in Western Europe nor they in the United States can afford is for us to pursue rival, divergent foreign policies. One cannot have an alliance sheltering under a nuclear deterrent and with an integrated defence structure pursuing conflicting aims. The Alliance must have a broad political strategy, and of course it must be an agreed one.

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This does not mean, however, that Western Europe must become the client, the satellite, the acquiescent junior partner of the United States. NATO is not the Warsaw Pact, and never can be. But the United States must in turn be sensitive to the mood and the psychological needs of Europe, just as we must understand that Dr. Kissinger must always be thinking of public opinion, particularly as that public opinion is expressed in Congress and in the Senate. It is all very well for people to say, as the French are saying at the moment, that the United States is with us in Europe only because it suits her vital needs. This is a political truism which has become a banality. Nations sometimes mistake what their vital needs are. Who can say that Britain, France, the United States and the Soviet Union were properly aware of their vital needs in 1938 and 1939?
Yet the French view repays deep study by the United States and by the rest of us in Western Europe. For what they think and fear is an extreme version of what we may all occasionally think, and sometimes fear. The French view—and there is a French view, not just a Gaullist view—was eloquently put by M. Michel Debré, only about eight or nine days ago. He fears—this is the nightmare—that what the United States wants is French policy to be dominated by a European policy, which must be an Atlantic policy; and that this Atlantic policy must be a United States policy. He believes that across the United States there is a desire that there should be no French policy towards the Arab States or the Soviet Union; that France's defence should again be placed under American responsibility, and that the European States should renounce all autonomous policies on energy, agriculture and commerce. This is the state of mind in France with which Mr. Callaghan, Mr. Brandt and the other European leaders and Mr. Kissinger have to deal. Nor should anybody imagine that the situation will be eased for us if M. Mitterand becomes President of France. The Parties of the Left have no greater love for the United States than M. Jobert himself has; perhaps they have even less.
Yet the French, by their logic, are already in danger of losing an important objective. Eight of the Nine nations in the Common Market are agreed that
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there should be advance consultations with the United States on major foreign policy initiatives. M. Jobert's view seems to be that as the E.E.C. is not a sovereign State, and as its policies cover only certain, limited areas, it cannot be given an automatic mandate to consult with the other nations. What one suspects is that France is unwilling to make such a concession in favour of the United States lest it should impair what it pleases her to think is her special relationship with the Soviet Union. So, as a consequence of all this, France's proposals for a Euro-Arab conference on cultural, technical and economic co-operation cannot go ahead. I thought that the British Foreign Secretary was quite right to point to the danger of cutting across Mr. Kissinger's Middle East peace initiatives and the decisions of the Washington Energy Conference; and everybody in Europe except the French agreed with him. That is the position to-day. That is the position of the American and European leaders who will meet in a few days' time across the bier of President Pompidou. It is a sad and needless confrontation that we have had in recent weeks. Leaders in most countries have spoken words which it would be wise for us all to forget. Perhaps in the pause while France seeks a new President we can think out a new beginning of the United States European relationships.
5 p.m.
THE EARL OF CROMER: My Lords, I should like to add my thanks to those already expressed to the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, for giving us the opportunity to debate this important subject today. I think it is rather symbolic of the times in which we live that he drafted the Motion in these words:
"To call attention to relations between Western Europe and the U.S.A., and the implications for the United Kingdom;".
Not so many years since, the debate would almost certainly have been on Anglo-American relations, and this shows the degree of change which has already taken place in our world.
I am sure the noble Lord the Leader of the House will forgive me if I say that I was most interested in the expressions of Atlanticism uttered by the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, which I find myself wholly sharing. In point of fact, in my notes I put down exactly the same words as he used. I can assure

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your Lordships there was no collusion on this. One element slightly surprised me and that was the tendency to wrap up defence, finance, monetary and trade into what the Americans call "one ball of wax", which is an approach to these matters that hitherto we have been trying to avoid, because although they obviously inter-relate and inter-react, to try to negotiate them all in one bundle, so to speak, which is what the Americans proposed at one point of time, would be very difficult for all of us from the purely administrative point of view to know what team of Ministers and officials should be mounted for such an occasion.
Recently there has been a tendency for the wringing of hands about transatlantic relations and the like, and I think it is worth trying to identify one or two of the causes. To go on wringing hands and saying "It is all terrible" is not going to produce the cures. One of the reasons for the differences that have arisen has been the rate of change in so many fields. There has been the rate of change in the economic side, attempts to find a new international payments system, the M.B.F.R. discussions, SALT, the trade discussions in the GATT, and the like. All these areas have been particularly active in the last year and the very activity has tended to bring to the fore the differences of approach which, perfectly understandably and naturally, exist between us.
On top of this we had the Year of Europe and the noble Lord, Lord Gore-Booth, rightly said that Dr. Kissinger's timing was unhappy in this respéct, particularly as it happened to coincide with the first year of the enlargement of the Community. I think his timing was unfortunate from the European point of view, and the results and the reactions were disappointing from his point of view. On the other hand, I think the motives were wholly laudable. He felt that people of my generation (if I may say so) were getting older, and that we who were brought up with the Atlantic community concept were finding our places filled by younger men who were not brought up with the same automatic identity of interest, and if one could create some appeal which would capture the imagination of the younger generation this would be to the advantage of the future of the
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Atlantic Alliance. I think the motives there are difficult to criticise, although whether ringing calls of this kind are any substitute for concrete action, I should doubt. However I think the motives were reasonable.
The effect on the year of the enlargement of the Community was quite interesting in that I think it brought about greater speed on the part of the members of the European Community to react politically with one voice, which was symbolised at the meeting in Copenhagen in September. But there were bad sides to it as well, notably the way in which it showed up the inadequacy of the machinery, both for formulating policy within the Community itself and for consultation with our most important ally and trading partner. I think a lot can be learnt from this, and I have been interested in the various views expressed in your Lordships' House this afternoon on this topic. At one stage the difficulty was that the Americans could not understand why we could not sit down, so to speak, 10 at the table, which would really imply that they were full members. This naturally and automatically produced a strong reaction from the French, but it would have produced more or less the same reaction from anybody else to whom it had been put.
So there is a great difficulty here. Whether the W.E.U., as has been suggested this afternoon, offers a possibility, I have my doubts. There is one suggestion I should like to make as a possible means of improving communications, namely, that the various European institutions and gatherings might issue more pressing invitations (if I may use that expression) to the Americans, to ensure that American diplomatic representation at these gatherings was on a level and an authority that (a) could report effectively to Washington and (b) conversely could express in these gatherings what the American interests might be.
A number of other noble Lords have expressed a view which I wholly share, that the key interest of the United States in the integration of Europe is for the future of NATO, and as they see it, only by such integration is it likely that the European members of NATO will play their full part, both in the military sense and in the financial contribution. I was very glad to hear the noble Baroness,

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Lady Tweedsmuir, quoting the figures of the contribution that is already made by the Europeans, including ourselves—figures to which those to whom we are really addressing them seem extraordinarily deaf; they do not want to hear them because they do not give them any joy.
But across the board there have been a number of areas of contention. In trade, and the GATT xxiv (6) negotiations, I think it is probably fair to say there has been a lack of flexibility on both sides of the Atlantic and that rather rigid positions have been taken, to the extent that at one stage in time Ministers were having to discuss into the small hours the subject of pineapple chunks, which one would have thought might have been delegated slightly further down; apparently the machinery did not allow it. Of course also in this area the Americans are very ready—as I suppose we all are—to see the faults of the other people, and the fact that they may have discriminatory trade practices themselves tends to be conveniently forgotten. For instance, the credit that should be given to Europe for the fact that the Common External Tariff is the lowest industrial tariff in any major trading bloc in the world is not something which gets across to the Americans.
Against these various areas of difference it is extremely difficult to know what is the best policy for Her Majesty's Government to follow at the present time. I certainly share the view which has been expressed by many noble Lords that to weaken the progress of European unification would be wholly unwelcome to the Americans. The course of history is such that none of the individual nation States of Europe, including ourselves, can offer to the Atlantic Alliance individually what is possible collectively. This provokes the rather unattractive phrase one sometimes hears in America, "Is Europe likely to move towards Balkanisation?" It is a real fear on the part of some Americans that we will be unable to stand together in the way they would wish.
My Lords, I hope to end briefly. Within what the Government style as renegotiation, but what I prefer to refer to as the continuing evolution of the European Community, we should work hard at improving the existing machinery. I think we would all share the view that
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within the Commission's relations with both our allies and the Third World generally, the machinery leaves a lot to be desired. I am convinced however that it is not possible to attempt to better Anglo-American relations at the price of worsening Anglo-European relations.
5.11 p.m.
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, may I begin by adding my expression of sorrow to that of other noble Lords on the sad loss to France of her President. There is much one could say about this tragic occasion, but others wish to speak this evening, and I am sure that the House, the people of France and the family of the President will recognise that all of us here extend our deep sympathy to them.
May I also add my gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, for giving us the opportunity to debate this most important area of defence and foreign policy. In the light of the fact that I follow him immediately in the order of speaking, may I extend a welcome to the noble Earl, Lord Cromer, on his return from his mission in Washington, where he has represented Her Majesty with such distinction and success.
I should like to concentrate on one special area of this debate; that is, defence policy. It seems to me that the whole framework and philosophy of Western defence is summed up in the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, to-day: relations between Western Europe, the United States of America and the implications for the United Kingdom. If we take those in reverse order, it is possible to say that the security of this country is inseparably bound up with that of Western Europe, and the security of Western Europe is in turn linked inseparably with that of the United States of America. In my view, there can be no question of Western Europe, and of this country in Western Europe, ever attempting to form anything like a third force, some kind of neutralised bloc standing between the United States of America and the Soviet Union. We stand alongside the United States, and in the Free World there should never be any room for doubt about that.
My Lords, on that particular issue I found the gracious Speech, which outlined the policy of the present Government, most encouraging. It seemed to

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me that the gracious Speech indicated a clear commitment to the Western Alliance and to NATO. That commitment has been underlined and emphasised again in the debate in this House to-day by the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts. Although he is not for the moment in his scat, I think that when he reads the OFFICIAL REPORT to-morrow, the noble Lord will accept my welcome to him to this House. This is my first opportunity to do so, and I greet him, congratulate him, and express my condolences to him that the result of the election in his constituency followed so soon after the speech which I made on the eve of poll.
My Lords, tomorrow is the 25th anniversary of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. For that reason, I think we should be regarding its future with a good deal more interest than its past. It is true that the Alliance and the relations between the United States end of the Alliance and the European end have been under considerable strain recently. For one reason and another there has been a failure of communications. I do not think that that great peripatetic Secretary of State from the United States, Dr. Kissinger, can be entirely exonerated from blame in this matter. We have heard a little about the timing of his initiative on a new Atlantic Charter. I would offer this mild criticism to him in the friendliest terms: that perhaps he finds it more difficult to understand Europeans than almost anyone else in the world. He seems to be thoroughly at home with the Arabs, the Israelis, the Chinese and with the Russians, but as soon as he sets foot in Western Europe the friction seems to begin. I cannot understand why this should be, but it does seem to be true. It is summed up in the remark which he is alleged to have made, perhaps apocryphally, to a Western European statesman who was expressing some doubts and fears about the forthcoming crisis in a certain area of the world, to which Dr. Kissinger replied, "There will be no crisis next week; my diary is already full."
Whether or not this is true and symptomatic of his approach, I believe the real need now is to restore the confidence that used to exist between Europe and the United States of America, to set
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the Alliance back on its feet and to keep it in good repair. My submission is that this country has a very great part to play in this operation. Although we should regard ourselves now as being a part of Europe, we have a very special responsibility in keeping in good repair the relationship between Western Europe and the United States.
My Lords, I now come to the part of my speech which deals specifically with defence policies. It is terribly important that this country, of all countries, should not be seen to be cavalier or in any way thoughtless or irresponsible about the military defence of Western Europe. There is a persistent threat to the integrity and survival of the Free World. There is the continuing nuclear arms race between the super-Powers. Those of us who have followed the Strategic Arms Limitation Talks will know that at a recent meeting between Dr. Kissinger and the Soviet leadership, the future of the Strategic Arms Limitation Talks came in for a good deal of questioning, and must now be regarded as a matter of some doubt. The two super-Powers are still engaged in a nuclear arms race.
If we take the simple example of the recent announcement of the American Defence Secretary that certain American missiles have now been retargetted so as to aim at Soviet missiles and not at Soviet cities, we can see the seeds sown of what might be a dangerous development if the Strategic Arms Limitation Talks should fail, because although I do not wish at this stage or in this debate to go into the whole theology of the nuclear confrontation, one of the possible results of it is that the Soviet Union might regard this as the first step in an American attempt to gain what is called a first strike capability; that is, the ability to knock out your opponent's missiles before he can retaliate. I do not suggest for a moment that this is the American aim, but there are two Powers at work here. If that is what the Russians think the Americans are doing, their next step could be a dangerous one indeed. It would be particularly dangerous for Western Europe.
I believe we should all bear this in mind and set it alongside the very real fact that outside the nuclear sphere, the armed strength of the Soviet Union is

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growing monthly and daily. It is growing especially in its power in Central Europe. It is growing, too, in the Mediterranean, in the Indian Ocean, and wherever the Soviet Navy now patrols. But most of all it is growing in central Europe, where the balance of forces between NATO and the Warsaw Pact is not moving in favour of the Free World. This is one of the main areas upon which the military security of the Free World depends.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, would the noble Lord allow me to interrupt him for one moment? I agree very much with what he is saying. Could he give us some figures of the disparity in weapons between the Atlantic bloc and the Soviet bloc? I think it very important that it should be brought home as loudly as possible.
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I do not keep the figures in my head. I can only say that it is not so much a question of disparity in numbers, although the disparity in numbers is sufficiently disturbing: the real difference lies in the quality and quantity, and type, of the weapons deployed. The areas in which the Soviet Union are now so much stronger than the West are the areas of armoured regiments, tanks, which are the basic weapons of aggressive or attacking warfare; in ground attack aircraft, which are similar; in artillery, and, of course, in the fact that their lines of communication, which cover a land area from Eastern Germany back into the Soviet Union, are shorter and more effective than the lines of communication of the West. It is not simply a question of disparity in numbers but also a question of disparity in certain vital types of equipment. The figures have been published recently by the International Institute for Strategic Studies and I commend the appropriate document to the noble Earl's attention.
It is I think essential, in the light of this confrontation and this imbalance, that the defences of the West should be kept always in good repair, and in this the British contribution is vital: of this none of us should be in any doubt. Most military experts on the Continent, whether they be German or French, American or of any other nationality, will subscribe
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to the view that, taken all round, the British Army of the Rhine, which is the British contribution to the Northern Army Group and the British contribution to the defence of Western Europe, is the best Army in Europe. Not only is it highly trained, not only is its morale at a very high level (it has no problems of drugs or the other manifestations of modern Western society which afflict other Armies in Europe), but its leadership is first-class; its equipment modern. It is a tightly knit, highly professional Army. All our Allies in Europe recognise it as such and recognise it as an absolutely essential link in the defence of Western Europe.
It has been said in the arguments that are adduced for making cuts in our own defence spending that we make a larger contribution, in terms of percentage of our gross national product, than other Western European countries. Statistically, that is true, but I believe it to be also basically misleading. It is misleading in the first place because, although we supply, in terms of gross national product, a larger percentage towards Western European defence, our gross national product is growing much more slowly than that of other Western European countries, as the noble Lord, Lord Gore-Booth, has mentioned.
The other fact is that the whole business of calculating the strengths on percentages of G.N.P. can give an entirely false impression. The total strength of the ground forces in the defence of Western Europe is 770,000. Of that, the British contribution is less than 60,000. I make that point simply to show that although the British Army of the Rhine is in my view the best Army in Europe, it cannot be said with any degree of seriousness that we are contributing a disproportionate amount to the defence of Western Europe, upon which in the long run the security of this country depends. In any case, if there is a disparity between our percentage of G.N.P. and theirs, is it not equally arguable that they should be raising theirs and not we lowering ours?
My Lords, this business of the amount of money we spend on ensuring safety against attack is not an absolute matter; it is a matter of what the threat is and how much we want to guard ourselves against that threat. But I think the real

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point here is that, whatever the arguments about levels of forces in Europe, any defence decisions made in this country, now more than ever before, must be on the basis of the closest consultation with our Allies, both our North American Allies and our Western European Allies, in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.
We have already had some cuts made in our Defence Budget by the previous Government, and they are to be carried on—or a promise has been made that they will be carried on—by the present Government. I believe, and my advice is, that those cuts can be sustained within the present establishment of our Armed Forces. It will probably mean delay in certain equipment programmes, but the cuts at present proposed, provided they are intelligently applied, need not affect our defence capacity or our capacity to contribute to the defence of Western Europe. But we are promised another Defence Review quite soon. If this Defence Review should mean further cuts, if this should be the beginning of a progressive reduction of our Defence Budget, the percentage of the G.N.P. we spend on defence, then I believe that the very effectiveness of our defence forces would be put at risk, and with it, inevitably, the security of Western Europe. I recognise that here we have to speak "the language of priorities", if I also may quote from Aneurin Bevan (it seems to be the statutory thing to do on this side of the House): the language of priorities must be listened to; and of course we cannot spend all we should like to on our Armed Forces. But it seems to me that before we do anything which affects the military safety of Western Europe, we must consult fully with our Allies in the Alliance, with our European Allies and our North American Allies.
It has been said that we need some kind of new machinery for consultation. I am not sure that we do. I believe that the machinery for consultation already exists. It is the will to consult which perhaps does not. In Europe, for example, we have only to choose between a number of possible instruments of consultation. There is the Eurogroup, which has been mentioned this afternoon. The Eurogroup is an extremely useful, valuable instrument of consultation. It has
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of course the major defect that it does not include France; and this is a critical defect. We have the Western European Union, which does include France but not the Scandinavian members of the Alliance. We have indeed the European Economic Community. There is no reason why that should not be used as a forum for political consultation. It is true that it includes one country, the Republic of Ireland, which is not a member of NATO, but I have never believed that the presence of Ireland in the Common Market should be allowed to militate against adequate consultation about political and miltary defence in Western Europe.
Then, outside Europe, for consultation with the United States of America, there is the North Atlantic Council, and that is exactly what it is there for: to enable the countries of Western Europe, perhaps having first discussed matters among themselves, to enter a process of consultation with the United States. All these instruments already exist. It seems to me only a matter of deciding how to use them and of having the will to use them.
The main thing is that there must in my view be no unilateral reduction of our ability to defend Western Europe. I say that not only from the point of view of Europe but from the point of view of this country, too. If we decide that we must make cuts which will affect our contribution to Western Europe, then we must consult with our Allies. If our Allies, in consultation with us, decide that there is to be a lowering of the level of military forces in Europe, then we must consult with the Americans; and in consultation with them we must exact concessions from the Soviet Union in the consultations on mutual and balanced force reductions. I believe that if we make unilateral reductions in the already critically low level of conventional defensive capability in Western Europe we shall be running into a period of very grave danger indeed.
I believe that this subject which the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, has brought before us is one of vital importance. I share the view that has already been expressed this afternoon: that in the relations between Western Europe and the United States of America a high degree of integration, economic and military, is essential in Western Europe. This has

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always been my view and I have never sought to conceal it. I also believe that the future relationship with the United States, as the noble Lord, Lord Ardwick, has said, will be a relationship between the United States of America and Western Europe. That is the new "special relationship". But I repeat, in that relationship this country has a very special role to play. We must play that role intelligently, powerfully and imaginatively. We must not be led into that ancient belief that the only language which foreigners understand is English spoken very loudly. That is not so. It may have been so at one time, but this is a new world.
We must show in our defence and foreign policy four things. We must show that we recognise fully the dangers to the integrity and the survival of the free world. Secondly, we must show that we are prepared to co-operate fully with our partners in Western Europe in meeting those dangers. Thirdly, we must demonstrate that we will have no truck with neutralism or ideas about third forces; we are of the Free World, and therefore, fourthly, we must demonstrate that we are four-square within the Western Alliance alongside our Allies, the United States of America. As I have said, I was encouraged by what was written in the gracious Speech and spoken about it, which set out the policies of the present Government. I have been further encouraged by the words of my noble friend Lord Goronwy-Roberts this afternoon. I believe that so long as the present Government pursue the policies that were set out in the gracious Speech, and in his speech this afternoon, they deserve the support of all Members of your Lordships' House.
5.32 p.m.
LORD LYELL: My Lords, I would first of all seek to associate myself with the messages of sympathy and condolence that noble Lords are sending to the people of France in their sad and tragic loss. Secondly, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, for giving us the opportunity of discussing what is an extremely important subject, one which over the next 20 or 25 years will become increasingly important. I have a minimal interest in the subject under discussion in that I am lucky enough to sit as a member of the North Atlantic Assembly which, as your Lordships will
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know, is an association of Parliamentarians of the North Atlantic Alliance. The list of speakers we have this afternoon is so impressive that I am relieved to find that there is a juvenile element in it—the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, possibly the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, and myself—and I think that it is incumbent on us to maintain the progress that has been made in the first 25 years of the North Atlantic Alliance, and incumbent on us to keep this progress going for the next 25 years.
I ask myself what is inconsistent with membership of the European Economic Community and a good and working relationship with the United States, because I believe that certainly for the last ten years at least there seems to have been an element of doubt in our good faith towards Europe. I do not necessarily believe that this doubt is the feeling of a strong, confident, and united Europe at all. It is sad that proof of good faith in a strong European Community seems to entail a reduction in good relations with the United States. I should be very sorry to see relations with the United States in any way diminished, or even remaining on the present level; I would hope to see them improved in every way possible. We heard a clear and excellent speech from the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, who stated that in his opinion there was no need at all to choose between Europe and the United States, and I am grateful and relieved to hear that this will be the policy of the Government in the years to come. I believe that relationships that have been forged over two world wars are not easily broken off; they are far more easily maintained through any temporary or minor difficulties that might appear.
I wonder why France, as one member of the European Economic Community, should seek in any way to dictate standards of behaviour of other members of the European Community, either newly joined or who have been part of the Community since the Treaty of Rome was first signed in 1957. The speech of the noble Lord, Lord Gore-Booth, was clear, concise and very coherent, and he emphasised all of this very well indeed. We in the United Kingdom and the rest of Europe do not see any reason for turning anti-Americanism into some form of virility symbol showing our fitness to

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become good Europeans even in the broader sense as was envisaged by General de Gaulle. I just cannot see that this is relevant to any improvement of relations either across the Atlantic or indeed around the world. I wonder why it is that France, of all nations, who should appreciate the help given in and after the Second World War, should seek to believe that the United States, and any help and influence coming from the United States, is in any way harmful. I have not found this at all easy to understand, in spite of the great logic that we always find in all French thought.
Defence in Western Europe against any possible aggression, from wherever it might come, is immensely aided by the United States. Without the United States I believe there would be no coherent and credible defence capacity in Europe as such. I do not believe that the United States carry out their defence treaty obligations in Europe just for their own pleasure or edification, but very much more because they believe it to be a political necessity. Many institutions and politicians within Western Europe desire to maintain these close links that already exist with the United States, and I think that they look to us, and to other members of the Community, to continue these links, whatever the cost, and to continue for the next 20 years as various Governments have for the last 20 or 25 years. I do not think that these institutions or politicians have any fear of us becoming a Trojan horse, as infiltrators of the United States money and influence into Europe. I believe that that is not the truth at all. Indeed, the United States Congress looks at Western Europe and to the United Kingdom, and holds out the hand of friendship to us. It is foolish and unconstructive to spurn these expressions of friendship and the help that we have obtained from the United States.
The United States Congress, and everybody in the United States and Canada, wish to see a strong and, so far as is possible, united Europe able to put its case politically anywhere in the world where it can be of influence. Yet somehow we still feel self-conscious in strengthening our relations with the United States and Canada, and with any other nations with which we choose to maintain links. I believe that this is
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rubbish. We must maintain these links with the United States, and I believe that this will grow ever more important. I cannot see why there is any reason why Atlantic relations should not be strengthened. As the noble Earl, Lord Cromer, has pointed out, we can do so much as a team within the Alliance. That team spirit is not, and never will be, destroyed by one member, or more than one member, dictating to the other nine, ten or eleven members what should be the policy. That is the main point that I believe we should seek to prove and this is why I am so pleased that the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, has given us the chance to discuss it this afternoon.
5.40 p.m.
VISCOUNT SIMON: My Lords, the only reason why I am venturing to intervene very briefly is that I happened to be in Brussels yesterday attending a subcommittee meeting of the North Atlantic Assembly, that body to which the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, has referred. I thought that I might pick up from my colleagues there some ideas that would be of interest to your Lordships, but I have to confess that everybody was, if I may use a neutral term, so much affected by the Foreign Secretary's speech at Luxembourg the previous day that it was a little difficult to get clear ideas that were not mixed up with some reference to that situation.
My Lords, as the noble Baroness, Lady Tweedsmuir of Belhelvie said, it is very necessary to keep our friendships in repair. This is specially necessary in times such as the present which are so difficult for all of us, for them as well as for us, although indeed we should keep our friendships in repair at all times. One of our great and most important friendships must always be our friendship with the people of the United States of America. The Motion speaks of the relations between the United States and Western Europe, and this is quite right because even if Western Europe was not collectively organised—and we must confess that at the moment the organisation is not perfect—the United States relationship would have to be of a collective nature.
The noble Lord, Lord Chalfont (or was it the noble Earl, Lord Cromer) in his very interesting speech, referred to the fears in America of Balkanisation. This

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is a very real fear. If Europe were to get into disarray there would be nobody with whom they could have relations. That may sound rather a foolish statement but I believe it to be so. They could not now have special relations with us or special relations with France or with the Federal Republic of Germany. They need to have a European focus with whom their relations can be carried on. And so it must be of a very great concern to us that there has been a schism in these relations, that points of tension have grown up.
I was much impressed by what the noble Lord, Lord Gore-Booth, said about the importance of finding a method of meeting our American friends which does not involve a confrontation. I brought back from Brussels something which I thought was rather interesting. It was a contribution by one of our colleagues referring to the difficulties because we were discussing this very subject of transatlantic relations. He said, "The escalation in public statements scarcely contributes to easing the situation." That splendid under-statement ought to have been made by an Englishman, but in fact was made by a Frenchman (in French, of course). I think this is one of the great troubles that faces us to-day in international relations. I suppose secret diplomacy was buried 30 or 40 years ago, but I must say that open diplomacy has terrible pitfalls.
I do not know whether the Secretary of State's speech at Luxembourg was blunt or whether it was frank, but it certainly was taken as an aggressive speech. Of course one can only take up impressions about the reaction. I read two newspapers in Europe and I thought that they were perhaps rather overstating their objections, but I read newspapers in England when I got home and they seemed to take very much the same view. Certainly among ordinary people whom I met and Parliamentarians from the different countries there was a feeling that this was not the way to set about it. The noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, in his very interesting speech said that the Secretary of State believed that our proposals were in the interests of the Community. I believe so too, but why on earth did he not say so? Why did he not present these suggestions not as demands from outside but as suggestions from within that this would improve the
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Community? It seems to me that the manner in which these proposals are put forward makes all the difference. Of course he had to make a statement which expressed the views of the Government, but I would have thought it much wiser if he had made precisely the same statement in private to the various Foreign Ministers. It was not necessary to make a public statement unless—and this is one of the great things which I believe of what our French friend called, "this escalation in public statements"—they are not made for the purpose of trying to reach agreement but for the purpose of satisfying people at home.
I was interested in another thing I picked up in Brussels. There was a visit recently by a group of American Congressmen and in the course of private conversation they said that we should not take too much notice of the sort of remarks that were made by Dr. Kissinger and by the President, because they also have to consider what the public at home wants to hear. So I must say that I would very much favour the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Gore-Booth, that we should go back to what he beautifully described as, "the laborious process of quiet consultation". I believe we should get much further in improving our relations if we could do that. I recognise how difficult it is in the social climate in which we live to-day where the newspapers, radio and television want to get instant reactions when anybody says anything at all. I deplore that because I think it creates confusion and leads to confrontation when the aim of all of us must be to try to find some common ground. The reaction of people to blunt or frank statements is very often an over-reaction. I suspect that to be the case with the reaction of Europe to the Foreign Secretary's speech in Luxembourg. But this I am afraid is what human beings do. Even in your Lordships' House we sometimes react rather violently to provocative statements from the other side of the House.
I am going to make only one other point and it arises also out of my visit. In his splendid speech the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, ended with a peroration which I greatly enjoyed when he talked about our working things out alongside our European allies and the United States. My Lords, do not let us forget that

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another member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation is Canada; and I do not think I have heard Canada mentioned in this debate at all. Our relations with the United States, the subject of the Motion, are very much linked with our relations with Canada. We tend sometimes to forget them in the various forums suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, on the Continent. Some of the forums include some nations, some include others, and it is difficult to make a choice as to which is the right forum for discussion of these problems. Western European Union has been proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran. Again there are others not represented there. The North Atlantic Treaty Organisation is the only one which includes the United States and Canada, and it also includes Norway which is not in the Nine.
So that in many ways, because it is almost impossible to separate the strictly military issues from the economic issues that lie behind them—and no military alliance is of any use unless it has the economic power to support it—it is difficult to find a place where we can discuss all these matters; and we do not want to discuss them in too many different places. That leads me to wonder whether we should seek for this purpose—I shall not suggest a take-over bid or anything like that—an amalgamation of some of the rather numerous bodies which take up the time of their members, including noble Lords in this House, which might well be streamlined if there were a single organisation within which these problems and the tensions that arise could be discussed.
I do not think I have anything more to say that would be of interest to your Lordships, except that I should like to quote from the French source to which I have already referred. That Frenchman said that no one—and that means no one nation—
"… can save himself alone. The essential aim for our countries must be to seek at every opportunity the necessary consensus. If leadership is intolerable"—
and I had some difficulty in extracting his meaning, but he meant that if the concept of the United States leaving the group is intolerable, if partnership is difficult to achieve precisely because of
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the tensions which develop, we must seek the necessary concensus. Then he concluded, very sensibly:
"This is far easier to write than to achieve but, above all, it is a question of will."
5.53 p.m.
LORD WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, this debate into which the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, has so excellently thrown us is one of singular timeliness. It is about what might be called the dilemma of Europe and what we do about America. The fact is that at the present time Europe is not in a happy or a united state. References are continuously made to "Europe", as though the European Economic Community were the same thing as Europe. But it does not amount to one-half of even Western Europe and is certainly much less than one-half of Europe as a whole. It would be wrong and unwise for us to talk of Europe without realising that Europe is something bigger and wider than is thought of in the narrow terms of the Economic Community. But that does not mean to say that the Economic Community is not something that has to be taken into consideration and discussed, because it obviously must be.
The fundamental problem with which we are faced is that we are unable in Europe, even in a narrow part of Europe, to reach on almost any matter at all any policy which is consistent and coherent. We cannot reach agreement among ourselves on a monetary policy, we cannot reach agreement on an energy policy, we cannot reach agreement on most matters of economic policy, and it is therefore not surprising if we find that we ape unable as a European Community to reach any agreement with America. I do not propose to go into the whole question of how Europe can be organised, because I do not believe that one ever reaches the organisation of a continent by sitting down and drawing up pretty schemes for it; that is something which necessarily works itself out and it can be done only by extremely hard struggling and work. It may be that we shall not reach it. It may be that some other solution will be attained. But in the meantime we have problems which we have to tackle concerning the relationship across the Atlantic, which I regard as a matter of very great importance.

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Unless we have some sort of agreement across the Atlantic, it is no good at all talking about the unity of the Western world.
The noble Viscount, Lord Simon, who has just referred to Canada and the United States as members of the North Atlantic Assembly, has well illustrated the point I want to make, as did the noble Lord, Lord Lyell; that is, the significance and importance of the North Atlantic Assembly. In Parliament in this country, as well as in the country as a whole, little serious thought is given to the North Atlantic Assembly. If you ask most people in the community as a whole what they thought of the North Atlantic Assembly, they would ask, "What is it?" You would then have to be inaccurate and say that it was NATO, although it is not the same as NATO but is its Parliamentary side. Most people have never heard of the Assembly; but if you asked them about NATO they would say, "Yes, that is a military organisation to fight the Russians", and that is as far as they would go.
But that is not the point of the North Atlantic Treaty. It is true that the North Atlantic Treaty was formulated, first of all, in order to ensure that the North Americans—let us call them that, so as to include the Canadians—remained active in the defence of Europe. But the Treaty goes far beyond that and specially refers to all those things which can build up a Western community, an Atlantic community, which is worth defending. Because of that we have within the North Atlantic Assembly a military committee, a political committee, an economic committee, a cultural committee and a committee on science and technology. That means that almost the complete range of our activities as human beings, as political beings, is covered.
Therefore one would have thought that the North Atlantic Assembly, which represents a far greater number of people and a far wider community than does the Common Market—after all, it represents Scandinavia, excluding Sweden and Finland, and also represents this country, Turkey, Canada and the United States—could do a great deal more. But there has so far been no successful attempt at institutionalising the North Atlantic Assembly and, consequently, it lives from hand to mouth. It does good work; it
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carries out splendid activities. But it is not institutionalised, and this is because the various countries which form part of it do not take a sufficiently active interest in what it does.
I will make an exception of two countries, the United States and Canada, which do take a great interest in it. Since I have been attending meetings of the North Atlantic Assembly, I have been jotting down the well-known American Congressmen who have been fairly regular attenders. There is Wayne Hays of the House of Representatives; Javits, a Republican senator from Now York, who has been chairman of the political committee; Senator Percy, from Illinois; Edward Kennedy, the senator for Massachusetts; Peter Rodino who is now chairman of the House Judiciary Committee; and we have also one much younger who is well known by name, being the son of the famous boxer Gene Tunney, Senator Tunney from California, an extremely active, keen person who is chairman of the Committee of which the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, is a member in his rapporteur capacity. These American Congressmen take an active part; they take the trouble to turn up. The American delegation is always bigger than any other delegation present at the North Atlantic Assembly.
I have no doubt that if we had the wisdom to use the North Atlantic Assembly we could get a lot done there in the way of co-operation with the Americans. They are anxious that this should be so and they play an admirable part in the Assembly; but we will not. I believe, get any effective co-operation with America by setting up a body in Europe which pretends to represent Europe and which lays down certain rules and then throws them across the Atlantic telling the Americans that they have to take them or leave them. We will never get any sort of agreement in that way; we will get it only if we are prepared to meet them somewhere where full, free discussion exists. I regret that I do not entirely agree with the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, about keeping discussions secret. I agree that the preliminary stages may have to be secret, but one must have free and open discussions.
My Lords, we come to the very important matters which were raised by my

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noble friend Lord Chalfont. He made a speech which I am sure we all found most interesting, on the problem of defence. He realises better than most people that the defence of Western Europe is absolutely and entirely bound up with NATO, that without NATO there is no defence in Western Europe. I think that my noble friend Lord Goronwy-Roberts made it clear in his speech at the start—I made a note of what he said and I think I have it right—that the
"requirements of NATO will be a first call on our defence expenditure".
This, I think, must clearly be the case. It is impossible for us to talk sense in the matter of defence if we think that each country is to have its own defence force and has to be able to look at the rest of the world and take it on. We last were anywhere near that position back in the 1920s, when we still had a navy that was the biggest in the world; but when the Americans started building ships they rapidly overtook us, much to our annoyance at the time. Since then there has not been a hope of our having anything effective on our own and our only way of having an effective force is in combination with other countries.
Here we come to something which is rather sad in European terms. In spite of our talk about Europe we absolutely fail to get any form of common procurement of materials. The matter has been raised several times; nothing is done about it. Even when it comes to the point of wanting to build a new advanced aircraft, the M.R.C.A., a highly costly weapon, France would not join in the project; she would have nothing to do with it. The result was that that aircraft is being built jointly by Germany, Italy, this country, and I think Belgium has also joined the project. France will not come in. Therefore when it is built, this highly expensive, highly elaborate aircraft, apparently capable of doing remarkable things—it is a retractable wing aircraft capable of low flight as well as long range flight and at high speeds—probably will never get sales which are adequate to pay for its whole production. Yet it is something that is wanted.
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When my noble friend Lord Chalfont talks of keeping our defence in a state of repair I do not think that he is really telling us the real facts of the case. It is not possible with our present methods within Western Europe to keep our defences in a state of repair. It is no good saying that one wants to do it, that one would like to do it. It is no good saying that by holding our expenditure where it is we can do it. I do not believe we can. I do not think it is possible. If we are asking ourselves how much effort we have to make to build the weapons of defence and in having the manpower to use and to maintain them, we must ask ourselves, "Defence against what?". If the expenditure somewhere else is on a vastly greater scale, it is no good thinking that by polishing up our peashooter we will be able to keep up our defences.
I believe that we are faced with a much greater problem than any of us is really admitting; that is that we cannot maintain an effective defensive posture unless we are prepared to do what I do not believe any country in Western Europe is prepared to do: spend a very much greater portion of its total resources upon defence. Therefore I think that we are in a dilemma. That is why I said at the start that the debate into which we have been thrown is the dilemma of Western Europe, and I think this dilemma is one that is going to cause us a great deal of heart searching. We either say that we are going to sacrifice an enormous amount for defence, or we say that we do not really go any further along these lines, that we cannot pursue the matter in this way, and so we can gradually—I do not say unilaterally—reduce our defence expenditure. I do not think we ever stay on a plateau. We either go up or we go down. I believe it is inevitable that we go down.
6.10 p.m.
BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOOD: My Lords, we have had an extremely interesting debate this afternoon and I have listened to every speech so far with very great interest. I think that all noble Lords have in their own way made a contribution to the debate, which makes it of very great importance. We are very much indebted to the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, for introducing the subject and I have listened with great

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interest to what he had to say. I appreciated what the noble Lord who has just sat down had to say. We have been colleagues at the North Atlantic Assembly for many years. I hope I am not wrong, but I think that he is being unnecessarily gloomy about the cooperation there can be in Western Europe and which can be achieved through the E.E.C. I agree that it is not at all easy and does not appear to be going very smoothly; nevertheless, so long as it does not break down, so long as the nations of the Western European continent are working together, surely that is a big step forward for those of us who have, as I have and as the noble Lord has also, lived through two world wars. God knows! that is the last thing we want to see ever happening again in Western Europe. This combination, this work, done through the E.E.C., done through NATO, is a very big step forward from the happenings in the last fifty years, happenings which we all pray will never occur again. The greatest insurance against such a happening is the formation of both the Community and NATO. Those are the two great combinations which must, certainly in our lifetime and I hope in the lifetime of people as young as the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, and the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, also prevent wars. For that reason, if for no other, I shall support every effort to make the E.E.C. and the North Atlantic Alliance work closely together.
Those of your Lordships who heard the noble Earl, Lord Avon, the other day in the first speech that he has made for many months in this House, on the Address, must have been enormously impressed by the feeling that here was someone who had in his lifetime actively taken part in two wars and had been himself Foreign Secretary in the last war. He said that the frontiers of the North Atlantic Assembly, of the North Atlantic Group, the Americans and the Canadians, were in Europe just as much as the interests of Europe must be allied to the United States. Coming from the noble Earl, that seemed to me to echo something of real depth and importance, because although people of other generations may talk like that, the man who was actually leading our foreign affairs in all those events is someone who, in saying that, seems to me to give a stamp
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of great importance to the efforts which we in this generation are trying to make in order to bring about a permanent state of peace in the world—if the word "permanent" can be used.
I strongly support what has been said by both the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, and by the noble Lord, Lord Wynne-Jones, on the importance of the North Atlantic Assembly. This group which brings together Members of Parliament—both Senators and Congressmen, Members of the House of Commons and Members of the House of Lords—once a year, and sometimes more often, to meet in the European capitals and to discuss the relationships between countries on the other side of the Atlantic and the countries in Western Europe, is an extremely important group. I was glad that the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, made reference to Canada, because although your Lordships may possibly know this—though some perhaps may not—the start of this group, which used to be called The NATO Parliamentarians, was in fact made by Senator Robertson, who was then the Speaker of the Canadian Parliament. and my husband who was then still a Member of the House of Commons and who, very shortly after the formation and the signing of the NATO Alliance, thought that it was extremely important that Members of Parliament should realise what this meant in the world. So they started together this very small group—as it then was—which has grown into the North Atlantic Assembly. It is a matter of enormous importance that we should have an Assembly in which the Americans play an active part because in all the other groups we are talking about—the W.E.U., the E.E.C., and all the others that have been mentioned—the Americans are not present. They may be listening, they may be reading what is being said, but they are not actively taking part; and that, I am sure, makes the North Atlantic Assembly extremely important.
Another curious and perhaps significant aspect, because France is such a very difficult country, is that the French, although they have now contracted out of NATO, have remained members of the North Atlantic Assembly. You will meet the members of the French Parliament—both the Senate and the House of Representatives—taking an active part

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in the discussions in the North Atlantic Assembly, although France has contracted out of NATO. It is one of those curious, illogical facts which make the French nation so difficult to work with. My Lords, let us face it, the French are, and always have been, very difficult to work with. On this occasion they want to have their cake and eat it, which is something many of us have wanted but have never been able to achieve. That does not mean that we should not let the French take part in the North Atlantic Assembly. It is quite right that they should. But it makes it even more regrettable that they should have contracted out of their NATO obligations. Perhaps the fact that they still want to stay in the political Assembly, the political arm of NATO as it were, means that they may want to become involved again in the defence commitments of NATO.
We are also fortunate in the present leadership in Germany and that Herr Willy Brandt continues to try to obtain a détente with the East Germans and with the Russians. It is a very brave attempt, my Lords, and it is going very slowly, as we know, but from the accounts that we read in the Press it still exists and they are trying very hard to bring about this détente. The need for the European alliance and the alliance with the United States is just as great to-day as it has been at any time, because in spite of Willy Brandt's efforts the Warsaw Pact countries are not making any very generous moves towards the détente that they are seeking.
But to-day a new problem is arising with the change of Government here and the change of policy of the Government towards the E.E.C. Although the United States is not involved with the Community I do not think that they will be impressed if the European nations, in-instead of speaking with one voice and coming together, should start arguing and quarrelling once again with each other. The Statement issued by the Government on the renegotiations has, I know, created a considerable amount of alarm and despondency among the European nations. It was interesting that we should have heard a contribution from the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, who only yesterday was in Brussels, where he was talking
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to these very people whom we have been endeavouring to work with all the time.
I was very much impressed by the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Gore-Booth (there is, I suppose, no greater expert on foreign affairs in this House than the noble Lord), when he stressed the importance of realising that we are at this moment part of the E.E.C. and that, although it may be the present Government's idea to renegotiate and to try to change the Treaty (and the words which have been read out from this Paper are fairly disruptive, I think, of the E.E.C.), we are already inside it. We ought not to behave as though we were talking at these people, when in fact we are part of that Assembly. This point was put by the noble Lord, Lord Gore-Booth, in, I thought, very tactful language. I am sure that many members of the public do not realise the damage that can be done by taking the opposite course and by speaking, as the noble Lord said, very loudly in English when they should be speaking rather quietly—certainly in English, if that is the language in which they want to speak, but not in an aggressive and attacking manner—if the Government want to get people to work with them.
My Lords, we have many friends in the E.E.C., as we know. They are people whom we do not want to hurt, people whom we do not want to depress—the West Germans, in particular; the Belgians the Dutch. These are all our friends and Allies. They are struggling just as much as anybody else to make this thing a success. As the noble Lord, Lord Gore-Booth, has said, they have had many successes, although their failures have probably been more emphasised than their successes because, as we all know, bad news is always carried faster and is always more newsworthy than good news. But I am quite sure that if we want to make the Common Market a success, if we want to build up the influence of the European Parliament, the right way to go about it is certainly not to start off by antagonising people.
Of course, the European Parliament is only a beginning, but I believe that it is a great conception. I am not a member of it and I have never been to it, but from reading the accounts of what takes place at the European Parliament it seems

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to me that the contribution British Parliamentarians have made has been of considerable importance, and I only wish that the present Government would send their delegates to the Parliament so that they can take part. There is no reason why they should not. This kind of attitude of "I am holier than thou" is to me quite inconceivable in a democratic society. We want people of all political Parties to go to the European Parliament; and I beg the noble Lords, Lord Shepherd and Lord Goronwy-Roberts, who in many ways seem to me very anxious to co-operate, to urge upon their colleagues that at least they could send delegates from the Government to the European Parliament.
I was so shocked, as I think many Members of this House were, by the reactions of the E.E.C. to the Foreign Secretary's speech that I thought I must make a rather violent protest, but the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, has rightly said that sometimes one protests too loudly about these things and one does not get anywhere. As someone who has worked in one or two Assemblies—I have certainly been a long time in the North Atlantic Assembly, where I have worked with many Parliamentarians; and I was three years, I think it was, at the United Nations working under different Foreign Secretaries and with different Ambassadors—I can only say that I have never read anything which shocked me so much as the account of the way in which our present Foreign Secretary went over on Monday, of what he said and of the impression he gave. That really will take a lot of living down, and it will not make it any easier for the Government, who want to renegotiate. If you want to renegotiate, you do not make enemies in the first five minutes of the people you are trying to renegotiate with, because that makes the situation really impossible.
I read a report in The Times of the words of one of the other Ministers who was over there, Mr. Hattersley. He said:
"Anyone who expected us to return to London with the cheers of Europe ringing in our ears must have based that optimism on the belief that we did not intend to begin a serious process of negotiation".
My Lords, I never expected anybody holding the views of those people to return with the cheers of Europe, but last weekend I was a delegate to a quite
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unofficial conference which took place in Edinburgh. It was the Köniwinter Conference, an Anglo-German Conference, which generally takes place each year in Bonn or in Königsberg, opposite Bonn, across the Rhine. There we met a group of very distinguished delegates—Parliamentarians, journalists and businessmen—and on our side we had a similar very distinguished number of delegates at this conference, including, I may say, Mr. Hattersley, who made a speech.
They were all desperately anxious about Monday: Monday was the great day. Would this be the moment at which they would get some encouragement from the present Government to carry on and work with them? Because, my Lords, many of those people are Social Democrats. They are not Conservatives; they are the Social Democrats. They are the supporters of Willy Brandt, all anxious to work with the Government that is now in power. They will be absolutely shattered by what happened on Monday. I cannot think of anything that can have disappointed them more; and to me it is a great sorrow and a great mistake. I only hope to goodness that it is the last time the present Foreign Secretary, whom I admire—he is a very able man; I know him, and he is a very able person—behaves as he did last Monday. It really was a terrible let-down for the whole way in which we conduct our diplomatic affairs.
My Lords, this debate is not of course about the E.E.C. alone, but is about Western Europe and the United States. I agreed with the noble Lord, Lord Wynne-Jones, when he said, "Do not let us think that there is only the E.E.C. in Europe." Of course there are other countries: Western Europe is more than the E.E.C. But I am quite certain that if we can get the E.E.C. countries to work together the rest of Western Europe will also co-operate. There is no reason why the co-operation between the E.E.C. and the rest of Europe, with the influence of the United States, should not be very powerful indeed in building up the Free World—the world that we really want to defend.
After all, the Congressmen and Senators who have the foreign policy of the United States to administer depend, just as our Members of Parliament depend in the administration of our foreign

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policy, on getting support from the voters in their own country—voters on the Pacific Coast, in the Middle West and on the Eastern seaboard. If those voters see the European situation deteriorating, or if they see nations quarrelling, they can very easily say, as they have said many times in the United States of America, "Let them get on with it; it is nothing to do with us. Let us withdraw our troops and let us have America for the Americans". An isolationist policy is not something we do not know the Americans to have had in past years, and it would be a tragedy if such a thing were to happen and if American foreign policy were to be changed because of it; that is to say, because those responsible for foreign policy, finding that they could not get support from the American people, began to think they must withdraw from Europe. That would be a real tragedy. It is up to the European nations to show the American public and people that they can work together, that they do not want to quarrel and that the United Kingdom does not want to throw spanners into the works at the present time. It is up to us to help the European nations to work out a united policy in peace time. Twice in my lifetime we have had to make tragic sacrifices in war. Surely we can make sacrifices in peace to prevent such things ever happening again.
6.31 p.m.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, has put down his Motion with a macabre sense of timing which could hardly be equalled. I should like to join several other noble Lords in saying how much we regret the death of a great Frenchman, President Pompidou. According to my right honourable friend, Mr. Heath, speaking on the wireless this morning, and to my noble friend Lady Tweedsmuir of Belhelvie, speaking earlier to-day, he was a great friend and admirer of this country. May I, who has loved France since my days as a callow youth at the Sorbonne, add my personal condolences to France and to the late President's family.
Europe and America have got themselves into the most appalling muddle. The United States President is fighting
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for his political life, surrounded by scandals which would have brought down in dishonour and disgrace most democratic Governments. Even if the President himself is soap-powder white, which necessitates a view of human nature requiring a saintlike charity, or, as some would say, naivety, most of his closest advisers have been indicted for high crimes or resigned in disgust. Luckily for us and for the United States, he still has his newly married Doctor Kissinger as Secretary of State, who has been compared to Metternich. Personally, I think a comparison to Talleyrand is more apposite. Unfortunately, the stubborn arrogance of M. Jobert has produced a counter-irritation in Doctor Kissinger, which has exacerbated European/United States relations further than was absolutely necessary.
The Italian Government is either non-existent or scandal-ridden. There are scandals of oil companies bribing political Parties—not one of them but all of them. There is the scandal of the money voted to save Venice, which seems to have vanished. Denmark has recently been through a period of political instability. We in this country have a minority Government, whose approach to foreign affairs has the finesse of a lame carthorse—possibility that of a Percheron as well.
Mr. Callaghan makes reasonably sensible remarks in another place, and then charges into the Council of Ministers, demanding this and demanding that as if he were Palmerston threatening the Greeks over Dom Pacifico—only, unlike Palmerston he stops sending a gunboat to Greece and practically everywhere else that he disapproves of. Here I must reiterate what I said yesterday. The barbarity of the present Greek Government is apparent to all. The Chilean Junta is also a form of government which cannot possibly commend itself to any lover of liberty, but before Her Majesty's Government get too upheaved about that Junta, I think they ought to remember and not shut their eyes (as some of their more myopic supporters have) to the contemptible disregard for liberty, for the rule of law and of property which was shown by the late Allende Government.
These examples of instant "twitch" reaction and selective disapproval can in no way be in Great Britain's interest. I say this not as a carping criticism but

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in an effort to help Her Majesty's Ministers and also to try to explain to them that diplomacy and foreign affairs are best done when carried out softly, quietly and with the minimum of gestures. Castlereagh, Talleyrand, Metternich, Kissinger, my right honourable friend Sir Alec Douglas-Home—and Ernest Bevin, above all—understood this with great clarity. Of course, gestures are sometimes essential but they must be well thought out and used very sparingly. They must be used only when they will work and when they are going to be effective.
On behalf of Her Majesty's Government, the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, and the noble Baroness, Lady Llewelyn-Davies—and I hope I have pronounced her name correctly—reiterated what was said in the Queen's Speech about support for the Atlantic Alliance. How can this coincide with the pledge contained in the Labour Party Manifesto—and we all know that the right honourable Mr. Harold Wilson, as Prime Minister, is the custodian of the Labour Party Manifesto—to remove the Holy Loch bases? This question has been asked in your Lordships' House by me at least once, and also by my noble friend Lady Tweedsmuir, and there has been an ugly rush to cover by noble Lords on the Front Bench opposite, because they have not really wanted to answer the question.
President Kennedy had a noble dream: that the defence of liberty and democracy rested on the twin pillars of the United States and a United Europe. If we in Europe continue to show the bad-tempered selfishness based on individual weakness that seems to be personified by M. Jobert, and also if France, through the tragic events of yesterday, worsens the factor of disunity by not really having a working Government until late May, at the earliest, together with chaos in Italy and the "barging" tactics of Her Majesty's present advisers, the outlook for this great ideal is grim indeed.
Let us, my Lords, remember that at the time of Queen Elizabeth I. Russia was a small Grand Duchy subject to the great Khans. Let us remember also that in the time of the Napoleonic Wars her population was smaller than that of France and that in the 300 years since
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Elizabeth I, right up to Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968, Russia has pursued a persistently aggressive policy. The Russians, either as Romanov Czars or Leninist Czars, have annexed and grabbed either Westwards or Eastwards. Admittedly, there was a pause brought on by the Treaty of Brest Litovsk and the Peace Treaties of 1918, but 20 years later they annexed Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. They then tried to re-annexe Finland and partition, for the fourth time, Poland. These were post-war annexations of Imperial Russia—and I used that word advisedly and leave no comment.
In Western Europe there is this terrible disunity of purpose. The Americans are making troop withdrawal noises, amid demoralisation at home. The morale of some NATO Armies appears not to be too good. The British have cut their Defence Budget, but luckily it is still possible to agree with Marshall Foy and say that the British Infantry are the finest in the world—he then added "Thank God there are so few of them." I say it is unfortunate that there are not enough of them. But if I were Czar Brezhnev I would be sitting in the Kremlin licking my lips, seeing America demoralised and Western Europe behaving like a collection of spoilt children.
In spite of our childish behaviour and our economic troubles, in spite of some of the pettiness of some of the actions of this Government—in spite of all these things, this country is still by far and away the best country in the world to live in. This must be preserved. Our liberties and institutions can only be safeguarded by the surrender of some of our sovereignty to our partners in Europe, and they will in turn retro-cede some of theirs to us. We must not let this precious heritage of English liberties and European civilisation fall into the maw of selfish, tyrannical, brutish Russia, or possibly by our own internal failures let it fall to an internal Maoist, Trotskyist or Fascist tyranny—call it what you will. England has several times saved herself by her own exertions and will, I hope, pull herself together again and save Europe by her own example.
6.40 p.m.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, deserves our thanks and congratulations on three

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counts. First, the subject that he has chosen for this debate, which manifestly is at any time a highly important one; secondly, as has already been stated, the timing of the debate, which could not have been more apt; and thirdly, for his admirable speech which initiated the debate. At the same time, I should like to offer my congratulations and welcome to my noble friend Lord Goronwy-Roberts. It is very good to know that he is back again in the Foreign Office, and even better that he is among us instead of in another place.
I do not know how many of your Lordships watched the television programme, "Panorama" on Monday night, but those who did will remember that when the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary was asked what ambitions he had as Foreign Secretary he replied that he would like to achieve, or help to achieve, three things: the first was to bring Europe and the United States closer together; the second was to bring the countries of Europe closer together—and he made the point that that included not only the countries of the Community, not only the countries of Western Europe, but all those which made up the Continent of Europe—and thirdly, to develop the ties between the Commonwealth, the developing countries and Europe. Those were his three major ambitions. I am sure we all agree wholeheartedly with them and hope that he will achieve them, or go a long way towards achieving them.
The question is: how can this be done? It is one thing to say what you want; it is quite a different thing to know how best to set about achieving it. Of one thing I am quite certain: these admirable and laudable ambitions cannot be achieved by this country alone, in spite of the fine sentiments of the noble Earl who has just sat down. We are still a great country, it is true, but we are not a great country in the sense that we were fifty or one hundred years ago, or perhaps even twenty years ago. We cannot impose our will upon other people; we do not have the military strength, we do not have the economic strength, to achieve these things single-handed. But we still have our greatness; we still have our beliefs; we still have our experience; and we still have our
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ideals. Those must not be lost to the world. It is my very firm conviction that all these qualities can only bear fruit if we meld them in with other countries of Europe which, although they may have differences to some extent of history and outlook, are essentially of the same civilisation as we are.
It is only through the Community, the enlarged Community and the yet to be enlarged Community, that these things for which Europe stands—and which we, above all, in our somewhat chauvinistic manner believe we pre-eminently stand—can be achieved and the Community can make their mark upon the rest of the world. It is the greatest and most dangerous self-deception if we believe that we can go it alone and have this influence simply as one country, however great its history, however high its ideals. Surely the experience of Suez will have taught us where the limits of our influence is at the present time.
The Community is the means which is ready to hand for achieving this. I think we all accept that. Most of us would not for a moment say that the Community as it is constituted to-day is perfect and needs no alteration. All of us know it can be improved, and that it must be improved. Its faults have been shown only too clearly in the past few months. At one time I thought that it was harsh and unfair that the great test for the new Community should come so soon in the shape of a common policy for energy and how we should react against the Arab threat. We reacted badly to it as Europe and as a Community; and as an Atlantic Alliance we reacted badly.
But I am not sure this was a bad thing, because it has concentrated our minds on sonic of the greatest weaknesses of the Community and the Atlantic Alliance. While at the moment we are in the throes of self-analysis about what happened and how it can be changed, I believe that if we are wise—and there is no reason to think we shall not be—we can learn a very valuable lesson from this. It is not only in energy—that is the most recent and vital crisis which has arisen. There is the equally vital, somewhat lower crisis—if we can have such a thing—of the world food situation. Here we must have a concerted European policy, not just a Common Agricultural Policy for the Nine

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in Europe, but a much wider world food programme in which the enlarged Community can play a very vital part indeed. And there are many other things: trade and help to the developing countries, and so on. In all these matters Europe must work and improve itself and become a vital and effective power.
It is good to know that the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs recognises this and has views which I am sure command the support of almost everybody in this House. We have heard to-day many criticisms of what happened on Monday. But those criticisms tend to mask some of the actual words used by the Foreign Secretary. Let me remind your Lordships of some of them. He says in the White Paper:
"We shall negotiate in good faith."
He says later:
"I would stress that I do not hope for a negotiation about withdrawal, I would prefer successful renegotiation."
He quotes from the Labour Party Manifesto:
"Britain is a European nation, and a Labour Britain would always seek a wider co-operation between the European peoples."
Later, he says:
"My country wishes to remain a member of an effective Atlantic Alliance."
These are all things with which very few of us—even those who just now evinced some doubt about what I was going to say—would disagree. As the Foreign Secretary so rightly said in his "Panorama" interview, words are not enough in these matters. There can often be, with the greatest respect to the noble Baroness, too many words in diplomatic dealings—so many words that they can mean anything to anybody. We want words which are clear and unequivocal, and which are followed by action.
My noble friend Lord Goronwy-Roberts said that the Foreign Secretary spoke frankly—some people suggested it was bluntly, but I do not think that matters. I think that frank speech and blunt speech, particularly in diplomatic affairs, is valuable, and I am glad we have a Foreign Secretary who uses frank and blunt words. But that being so, I am sure he will not object if some of us use frank and blunt words, too. I suggest frankly and bluntly that while in some forms of negotiation it is good tactics to
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start tough and to appear intransigent so that any subsequent softening is regarded as a great victory by one's opponents, in this particular case we are not negotiating with opponents; we are dealing with colleagues and with partners.
Some of our colleagues and partners are already suspicious of us; some of them are difficult people to deal with; others—and I would say especially the Germans and the Dutch—are very anxious to be friendly and helpful and to go along with us and support us in many of the reforms that we wish to bring about. They are close friends politically, and many of them are close friends personally with many of us. I believe that my right honourable friend runs a real risk of losing their help if he pursues the sort of approach which he adopted on Monday. With a different approach he could ensure that they work with us; and in that way he could take a great step towards the achievement of his ambitions as outlined in his "Panorama" interview. But if he fails in his renegotiations, if we fail in our renegotiations, if we fail to get the good will and the support of our friends and our colleagues in the European Community, then, my Lords, it is idle to think that this country on its own can bring Europe and the United States closer together any more than without its partners in the Community it can help to unify the whole of Europe, or even to strengthen the ties of the Commonwealth and the developing countries. It is only a strong Europe, with us as a full and powerful member, that can bring about all these good things.
6.52 p.m.
LORD HANKEY: My Lords, I should like to start by congratulating the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, on the extremely well documented and interesting speech with which he started this debate. He gave us the best possible start. I should also like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Goronwy-Roberts, upon the way in which he dealt with this now somewhat controversial question. I warmly agreed with most of what he said. I do not want to add a great deal to what has been said of the great importance of relations with the United States, though I am sorry that not more has been said about the Commonwealth. I should like to say that

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politically we have the same ethos and outlook as the United States in so many matters which are of great importance to both our countries in world affairs. In defence we are really totally dependent on the United States, although we make the best possible contribution we can to collective defence. I agree very much with the interesting speech which the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, made on that subject.
Economically the situation is equally striking. My Lords, if you take the world economy and divide it down the middle, about half consists of the Communist countries and the rest of the world; the other half consists of O.E.C.D. It is a fact that if you take all the countries of O.E.C.D. together—that is, the whole of free Europe, Canada, the United States, Japan, Australia and New Zealand—and add up their Gross Domestic Products, the United States comes to 44 per cent. of the whole. It is a very remarkable fact. That is at current prices and current exchange rates.
This is something we must never forget, because in the future, relations with the developing world are going to be vitally important. My Lords, people talk as if the developing world consisted only of extremely poor nations. That is a gross distortion. Japan was in the developing world not so long ago, and for years now they have been giving aid. Similarly, Italy gives aid. There are many States, like Lebanon, Mexico, Formosa, and a number of others, who are in a stage of economic take-off. But the prosperity of all these countries, and their livelihood, depends on the trade which they have with the developed world; and if we in the developed world are going to fall out as between America (with 44 per cent. of the gross domestic product), and Europe and the others, it can only spell disaster not just for ourselves but for a great many countries for whom we should feel a continuing sense of responsibility.
I am one of those who is a very great believer in a better and a closer relation with the United States on all economic, commercial, monetary and financial subjects. I think that O.E.C.D. has a continuing value; and that the relationship between the European Economic Community and America is of continuing
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and vital importance inside that framework.
My Lords, I do not agree in the least with the Gaullist attitude towards America. I think it has done infinite harm to Europe. I had very much the same experience as the noble Lord, Lord Gore-Booth. I have had many arguments with my many French friends about this. But when I was in France, about two weeks ago, I detected a new wind beginning to blow. There are thinking people in France who are beginning to say. "Yes, that was all very well in de Gaulle's time, but it has now become clear that we cannot make Europe without America". My Lords, this, I believe, is the beginning of a glimmering of a real truth. I think that this is something that we should try to bring home to our French friends and our European partners. In my view, it is the prime duty of Britain, inside the E.E.C., to oil the wheels and facilitate Atlantic understanding on the broadest possible front. We cannot do this if we quarrel with our friends in Europe and offend them.
I want to express, in the most carefully chosen words, the deepest anxiety about the course the Government are following in talking of even the possibility of withdrawal from the E.E.C. Britain is obviously heading for a major round of cost inflation: the soaring price of oil, with V.A.T. now added; the soaring costs of imports of food and raw materials (with other raw materials producers about to imitate the oil sheikhs, so far as one can judge); the miners' settlement, with ASLEF, N.U.B.E., A.U.E.W., and others as runners-up; all these factors are going to work right through our economy, with higher domestic prices for coal, electric power, gas, transport and so on. It can only affect prices. There must be another wage round. It is bound to affect exports and the balance of payments. I think that, important as the Government's policy is in this respect, subsidies can be only a palliative. Yet, my Lords, already we have borrowed extensively abroad and are now borrowing much more.
I am not suggesting that these factors are all the fault of either the present or the last Government. But is this a time to get separated from the rich and

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successful countries with which we are now after ten years of negotiation, so closely allied in the E.E.C.? Last year, our first effective year in the E.E.C., our trade with Europe increased by 37 per cent. Surely we must give that some weight. I must say, having for years been United Kingdom delegate to O.E.C.D., and also Chairman of the Economic Policy Committee there, that my mind boggles at the possible consequences for this country, for our countrymen and for our economy, if we are now separated from the E.E.C. After all, EFTA has gone; our relations with the Commonwealth are not what they were; our own people show almost no concern for their firms' delivery dates and contract commitments. Mr. Joe Gormley is only the most recent example. What will happen if our creditors lose confidence in an isolated and friendless United Kingdom and demand their money back? What about the pound? How do we buy our food and raw materials? I am blessed if I know! The Government seem to me to show no adequate appreciation of these major considerations of policy in even talking of possible withdrawal.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, since the noble Lord is developing this point, could he inform the House what was the deficit between the United Kingdom and the E.E.C. for 1973?
LORD HANKEY: It was a pretty considerable one, my Lords, but I have not the figures with me. Perhaps the noble Lord could tell us.
LORD SHEPHERD: One thousand million.
LORD HANKEY: In current trade, my Lords. I think that is fairly considerable, but that is probably our fault rather than theirs. After all, I recall that in 1973 we lost 400,000 motor cars owing to strikes, and in the previous year we lost 23 million working days. How you can expect anything but a deficit of £1,000 million on that basis I just do not know.
I must say that I am profoundly shocked at some of the things that were said in Luxembourg. I do not disagree with the Government over all the things they want to alter. The Common Agricultural Policy obviously needs amend-
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ment: I thought Mr. Peart was well received on that. The butter nonsense is totally absurd. On economic and monetary union, it is admitted in Mr. Callaghan's speech that much new thinking is going on in Brussels. The budget could obviously be discussed. The Government, in my view, have acted in such a way as to impugn Britain's good faith by talking of renegotiating an agreement which was so recently signed and ratified—and that after an Election! They have deeply offended and wounded some of our closest friends, neighbours and associates. They have prejudiced the influence which we have so carefully built up with these friends and associates, and which we shall need in order to settle these very questions.
And then, not once but several times in his speech, our Foreign Secretary says he is engaged in a root-and-branch review of these issues and will be making proposals. My Lords, would it not have been far better to decide first exactly what we want? Some of the others are just as worried on some of these issues, and I think we would certainly have found allies who would help us obtain satisfaction, and we could then have organised major pressure on each on these issues inside the E.E.C. I am all for standing up for British interests—I have personally had to do so for years. But surely that would have been a wiser method than all this talk about renegotiation, and even negotiation for withdrawal, which probably has no proper legal basis anyway.
There is something very difficult that I want to say now. We have been speaking about bluntness. I have something that I really must say rather bluntly. I am the more disturbed about this because I feel that the major interests of the United Kingdom are being endangered, and may even be sacrificed, in order to cover up some of the more ridiculous political somersaults which the Labour Party have performed on these issues in recent years. I strongly suspect that the Labour Party are leaning over backwards in this, and perhaps in other important national matters, in order to oblige the extreme Left Wing elements who have been allowed to get into a number of key positions which are very important to the Party. Let no one say that our people approved their Party Manifesto. I am personally deeply offended that the

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Foreign Secretary should quote it to his foreign colleagues as if it were the national Bible. It most definitely is not; and the percentages of electoral votes proved that, if they proved nothing else. What more are the Left-Wing elements going to be allowed to impose on our country? And as for having a referendum on issues as profound and complicated as these. I fail to see any sense or responsibility in the idea. What on earth is Parliament for if it is not as an elected body to settle questions of these dimensions? Do the Labour Party really want to diminish its authority? I refuse to believe that. Yet I do not see any other possible result from this section of the Foreign Secretary's speech.
It is rare for a Cross-Bencher to say hard words; I do not like doing it. But I want to say that I speak as one with many Socialist friends, having served several Labour Governments with real loyalty, enthusiasm and energy; and I speak out of deep anxiety and real friendship. I should like to see Labour take their proper place at Strasbourg. It is only too apparent to any informed observer that they no longer understand their colleagues on the Continent or know what happens at Brussels. I am really sad about this. I have been personally delighted, even when serving a Conservative Government, to facilitate such contacts abroad between the members of the Labour Party and foreign Labour Parties in the past, and I have been impressed by Labour's wide knowledge and understanding. Their distinguished leaders have shown an enormous knowledge of Socialist Parties all over Europe, not only on this side of the Iron Curtain, and I hope the Labour Party will not fall into "Little Englandism". There is no future in "Little Englandism."
Look at the situation we are all in. The huge Soviet thundercloud overhangs central and Western Europe with East European satellites most strictly kept in order, and a most impressive, if at present not quite monolithic, discipline at home. Vast nuclear arms resources—whatever for? A vast Fleet—again, whatever for? One thinks of Kaiser Wilhelm; one thinks of Hitler. We discovered what their Fleets were for. It just makes me shiver a bit when I look at the number of Soviet nuclear submarines. They have an
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enormous Army, and we saw it move with a pantherlike spring on Czechoslovakia. And here we have a new situation in France—I agree of course that it has arisen since the Brussels Meeting. We have the German Government notably less sure of itself; weak political situations in Italy and several other E.E.C. countries; an American President who may not even see the year out; even a minority Government here. Is this really the good moment to go calling in question the European Economic Community's very existence? It is surely a gift offering on a plate to the enemies of Western Europe, and everybody knows who they are.
Yet, my Lords, look what needs to be done. Cannot we all together in Europe develop a good regional policy? Of course we can. Cannot we reorganise and improve the E.E.C.'s very unhelpful method of commercial negotiation? We ought to be able to do so. I agreed most warmly with the interesting observations of the noble Lord, Lord Gore-Booth, on this problem of improving the methods of negotiation and information as between the members of the E.E.C. and the United States. Cannot we all together, and with our partners in O.E.C.D., find a solution to the obsessive monetary problems, exchange problems, inflation problems, which afflict our civilisation and undermine its stability? It is sure we cannot do it alone; nor can America. But surely these problems merit real diplomacy. Should not we preserve our influence with our friends in order to make a real approach to these vital questions on which the prosperity of the whole world depends?
There are the problems of oil and raw materials. There are aid problems—they must look quite different to the developing countries with the present raw material prices. Surely the Government, with their great understanding of these problems, will want to organise a joint approach to them. I liked very much what the Foreign Secretary said in his speech on these subjects. What about pollution problems, and what about a co-ordinated energy policy? Our friends are certainly ready to discuss all these questions with us in a progressive and constructive way. All I am concerned to say now is that we ought to be making an approach to these problems, instead of bringing forward these stupid questions

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of butter nonsenses, as if the whole world depended on them. I implore the Government to raise their sights to these much larger issues. There was only the slightest recognition of them in the Foreign Secretary's speech at Brussels, but I thought the references to them were good, so far as they went.
Finally, I want to sound a warning against to-ing and fro-ing in high places. I think this can be said only from these Benches. Lack of consistency and determination to see things through has done our country infinite harm for years. I think we have been under very poor management. I remember that when I went to O.E.E.C. in 1960 I had instructions to get myself and the United Kingdom out of the Chair of the Council. So after I had been there some time I very discreetly sounded my colleagues and I got universally the same slightly humorous reaction: "Oh no, you don't!", they said. "Shortly after the United Kingdom started O.E.E.C., for some reason we never could understand they turned sour on the whole enterprise, so we pushed the United Kingdom into the Chair in order that they should be shamed into making the running, and there you be and there you bide, my friend". So there I had to remain until we started O.E.C.D. with a Ministerial Chairman in the person of Mr. Kristensen, a former Danish Minister of Finance.
So history repeats itself. We spend years of effort getting into the Common Market and turn sour on it for what seem to me the most questionable motives, and in a very questionable way. We spend hundreds of millions of pounds on developing new aircraft, one after another, and appear to lose interest at the end. We spend countless millions on nuclear energy, in which we lead the world. We make a mess of industrial engineering. We lose interest at the highest levels, partly because our Government wanted to oblige the miners—and look how Mr. Gormley has rewarded us! We talk for years about a new airport and a Channel Tunnel and appear to reach conclusions; but no decision ever stands. We have over the years completely mucked up our steel industry and the industries which supply it with capital equipment by to-ing and fro-ing and political Party manœuvring. No wonder businessmen mistrust politicians!
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—and so, for that matter, do the trade unions. One could not run a village confectionery shop on that basis. So I implore our Government, and Governments of all Parties, when decisions are taken, to stick to them. See them through, for God's sake! The resources of this country are really quite large. We can do it if we choose well, but we must not waste a great deal of money building things up and then scrapping them.
So, my Lords, I conclude with the big issues. If Europe falls apart over questions like butter or the Community Budget, which can perfectly well be discussed quietly and sensibly, will the Americans still support and defend it? I do not believe they will. Without America Europe can be crushed like a cockroach. If the United Kingdom separates itself from its friends, with a real crisis of inflation straight ahead, can we expect to go on borrowing money, or even to keep the money we have borrowed? If we go on to-ing and fro-ing, putting Party bickering before national interests, or making ceremonial posturings to impress Party extremists, can we expect anyone to respect us? If ever there was a time for consensus policies, it is now. If only we will act together, nationally, the United Kingdom will survive very well; otherwise I cannot see the bottom of the pit.
7.14 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I must not be provoked by the noble Lord, Lord Hankey, because I intended—and I still intend—to make a moderate and a constructive speech. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, will be well satisfied with a debate that has been always thoughtful—in fact it has been a model of what foreign affairs debates should be. I believe that to a certain extent this is due to the fact that we have sought to concentrate on one particular aspect of foreign affairs as opposed to having a wide-ranging debate over all aspects of international affairs.
It seemed to me that the debate centred on concern as to the future of the Alliance and the future of the European Economic Community, and the United Kingdom approach, particularly to renegotiation of terms. If I may say so, not only must I thank the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, for introducing this debate, but also all other noble Lords who

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have participated, and in particular the noble Earl. Lord Cromer, who has now given up his heavy duties in Washington and has returned to your Lordships' House. I am sure that we shall look forward to hearing from him on many other occasions.
Before proceeding, I wish, on behalf of Her Majesty's Government and myself personally, to join with all other noble Lords who have paid tribute on the occasion of the sad passing of President Pompidou. We may have had our differences—the United Kingdom and France—and no doubt President Pompidou had his own role there but, there can never be any question that President Pompidou was a great Frenchman and one must honour him for his attitude and his support for his country. We all send our message of sympathy to Madame Pompidou and to the son, and also to the people of France in this moment of sorrow.
I thought it right, too, that the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, and others, reminded us that this year is the 25th anniversary of NATO, and in the light of some of the speeches, particularly that of the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, who always enlivens us, and also the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Hankey, it is well to remember that NATO was formed under a Labour Government, under a very great Foreign Secretary, Ernest Bevin, and was a consequence of long-held beliefs of the Labour Movement that the peace of this country and the stability of Europe depended upon collective security. That is what we worked for, and when we seized the opportunity that the United States offered, it was possible for NATO to be formed; and I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Hankey, and to other noble Lords that the Atlantic Alliance and NATO remain four square in this Government's policy, both in the field of foreign affairs and defence. That is why throughout the Queen's Speech and in the speeches that were made in another place we have stressed the need for strengthening the Alliance.
My Lords, if I may, I will detain the House by reading a few words taken out of the speech made by the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary to his col- 1008
Leagues at the Council of Ministers. He said:
"The image of the Community in the United Kingdom is not good. My country wishes to remain a member of an effective Atlantic Alliance; and there is therefore concern about the degree of disagreement between the Community and the United States. Surely this is not inevitable. If the British people thought it was, it would adversely influence their attitude towards the development of the Community.
We shall not always be able to agree with the United States but the Community in devising its procedures and its common positions must always try to work with America wherever it can. Conversely America must try and work with us. Only if the Nine work harmoniously with the United States on both economic issues in the framework of the Community and on political issues in the framework of political co-operation, shall we surmount the difficulties to which President Nixon and Dr. Kissinger have recently drawn attention.
We should all like to work with you to produce a stable, healthy and co-operative relationship with all those countries or groups of countries with whom Europe's life is intimately connected, for example with Japan, Canada and other industrialised countries; with the Commonwealth and the Community's Associates; and with the Arab countries; and with the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe."
I should have thought those words would put the position of Her Majesty's Government beyond any form of question.
My Lords, my noble friend, Lord Chalfont, quite rightly drew attention to the threat to the West by the Soviet bloc countries. This is potentially a grave threat. But clearly there can be no question that we should seek a détente and that we should move cautiously but constructively. It was again the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary who was quite clear in his speech in another place as to the intentions of Her Majesty's Government in this matter. In defence matters, such as within NATO, there was concern for the degree of consultation which has developed. I think it was last November that the NATO countries resolved to see how this could be remedied. Steps have been taken, but clearly we shall need to watch the matter.
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Gore-Booth, said that the Government need to be careful that they do not adversely affect United Kingdom/United States relations by a reduction in the Defence budget. I have already spoken of the great importance we attach to the maintenance

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of the North Atlantic Alliance. The Reykjavik Declaration of 1968 recognised that the Alliance was aimed towards mutual trust and confidence, which must exist if there was to be lasting peace in Europe. But until a full détente is achieved, an effective alliance, defence will remain essential. We in Britain shall play our full part in consultation with the Alliance as a whole. However, we shall work to find better and more efficient ways of using scarce resources in a common effort, and to ensure that the burden which Britain bears is not out of line with that of our major European allies. I do not think there can be any question (whatever form of statistics or weight one gives to one figure or another) that Britain, of all the European countries, bears not only the heaviest burden, but the heaviest burden across the exchanges. At the present moment we have our own economic difficulties, particularly balance-of-payments difficulties which the noble Lord, Lord Hankey, would attribute to all politicians; he carefully avoided putting it at the feet of the previous Administration—
LORD HANKEY: My Lords, I do not think I was blaming either Party for that. Please forgive me.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, of course the noble Lord does not blame either Party for that because he does not want to blame his friends on that side. Incidentally, I do not want to be provocative, but we have considerable economic difficulties, and shall need to deal with those. I am sure we all agree that, unless Britain is economically strong, her military and political contributions to Europe must suffer as a consequence.
In defence co-operation there seems to me much misunderstanding of European attitudes to NATO and the United States. Here I can speak with some personal experience, because the week-end before last I had the honour of leading the British delegation to the Anglo/United States Parliamentary Conference, when one had an opportunity of discussing all these matters with leading members of the American Congress. I must say to the noble Baroness, Lady Tweedsmuir, who quoted figures, that they were figures which I used to very great effect at one
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stage in our discussions. Those figures were not known to members of the American Congress. We must find ways and means by which we can get a wider recognition, not only in the political circles of Congress, but in a wider sphere amongst the electorate, of the contribution that Europe is making, not simply to the defence of Europe but to the defence of the Western World. That in itself could be a subject on its own for a debate.
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd of Kilgerran, asked me whether I could say something about W.E.U., and whether this would not be a useful vehicle for consultation. I accept that this is an interesting idea. I have not had an opportunity fully to consult my colleagues on this, but I believe that this Government support contacts in all spheres between Governments and Parliaments on both sides of the Atlantic; and W.E.U. is included in this organisation.
My Lords, I think also of the NATO Parliamentary Conference which the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood, attends. I used to attend with her. I know the noble Lord, Lord Wynne-Jones, also attends this Conference. I believe this may be the vehicle for a greater exchange of knowledge and experience. I must congratulate the noble Baroness, and the noble Lord, Lord Wynne-Jones, upon taking part in this debate and for using their experience of this Conference. One of the criticisms of recent years has been that those who have been members of these Parliamentary associations have not always participated in matters of foreign policy and defence.
LORD WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, I hope the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, will forgive me for adding to what he has said, but I would point out that the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, and the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, are also representatives from this House.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, that just shows how quickly one gets out of date. I apologise to the noble Viscount, Lord Simon, and to the noble Lord, Lord Lyell. This is even better—four representatives from this House.
My Lords, there has been discussion to-night about misunderstandings between the United States and Europe on the question of consultation. We attach very

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great importance to this matter. These are early days. I would say to the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Tweedsmuir, that what we are working towards is the achievement of the fullest and earliest possible consultation—and I stress "earliest possible" We hope to have the support of other members of the Community in this. We are determined that past failures in communication shall not be repeated.
On the question of co-operation, we cannot expect to deal successfully with the global trade and energy problems which we now face without the active co-operation of the United States. We cannot expect the continuation of a close defence relationship with the Americans unless we ensure there is adequate and timely consultation between the countries of Europe and North America on all the major problems with which we are faced. In reply to my noble friend Lord Ardwick, I do not think in our consultation we face the question of having to choose between what will be to the benefit of Europe and what will be to the benefit of America. We need to seek for approaches to problems which will help to serve the interests of the countries on both sides of the Atlantic.
The noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, drew attention to potential food shortages. This is a considerable risk, particularly in the developing countries, as a consequence of the shortage of oil. In my view, this is a matter for the United Nations. They are the only organisation, in association with the World Bank, which can cope with such a catastrophe. In the field of other trade, multilateral trade negotiations in GATT, all these must be proceeded with, and I would suggest, too, that we need to take a more sympathetic view of the position of the United States in these negotiations.
The noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, and the noble Earl, Lord Cromer, asked what was the attitude of the Government to the negotiations under Article XXIV(6) of GATT and to the principle of compensation for the United States. Do we agree with our European partners in this matter? The GATT requires third countries to be compensated for increases in tariffs. Naturally we support that. But the level of compensation is one which has to be reached by, to quote GATT, "a process
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of negotiation and agreement". The Community has instructed the European Commission to explore alternative means of settling these negotiations. We attach great importance to the negotiations being settled on a mutually satisfactory basis and as soon as possible.
My Lords, the only discordant feeling I had towards the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, was when he referred to discussions of relations with the Commonwealth in terms of "humbug". I have always attached the greatest possible importance to the Commonwealth.
LORD O'HAGAN: My Lords, I did not say the Commonwealth was humbug. I did not say I thought the Commonwealth was humbug. I said that I attached importance to the Commonwealth, and all I hoped was that there would be no humbug in our discussion of the Commonwealth to-day in this House. That is the only way in which I associated the word "humbug" with the Commonwealth.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I am glad I provoked the noble Lord to his feet, because he has made the point I was hoping to make. Here we have a community of people that goes right across the whole broad structure of the world—all the races, all the religions, people of many different sorts in varying economic circumstances. They can make a very great contribution to stability. I am glad the noble Lord intervened, because I think it would be quite wrong for it to go out, or appear to go out, that we were questioning the value of the Commonwealth.
I come to the Labour Government's attitude to the E.E.C. The noble Baroness, Lady Tweedsmuir, made forceful criticism, echoed in more muted ways by others. I hope that this is not a sign that the noble Baroness intends to proceed in this way, because when I was standing opposite her I was always most conciliatory in my approach. She criticised the tone of the Foreign Secretary's speech. I have no doubt at all that its effect was what was intended. It was meant to be firm and it was meant to be frank, and I do not believe that the Ministers at the Council of Ministers, the other Eight, would have expected any different approach from Mr. Callaghan, whom they have known over

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very many years. Mr. Callaghan speaks his mind and he has been honoured as a consequence. I believe that had we sought a diplomatic approach, and I use the word "diplomatic" in quotation marks, it would not have had the constructive effect that I believe will be a consequence of that statement which was made on Monday.
I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Walston, who reminded your Lordships of what the Foreign Secretary said as to what his approach was in terms of these negotiations: that we were negotiating in good faith and that we were seeking conditions that would make it possible for the United Kingdom to remain a member within the European Economic Community. I can say to the noble Baroness that the Labour Government have no intention, and no sense of purpose to seek to destroy the integrity of the European Economic Community, even if circumstances made it necessary, and the British people were so to decide, that we had to leave that Community.
BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE: My Lords, if I may clarify the very important statement that the noble Lord has made, may I ask him whether the Labour Government in principle are still in favour of membership of the European Community?
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, our position is set out in the Manifesto. We have made it clear, and my right honourable friend, I thought, made it clear in his approach:
"For our part we have made clear—in the Labour Party Manifesto for the recent election—that Britain is a European nation, and a Labour Britain would always seek a wider co-operation between the European peoples."
I think in a speech in another place the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary was more specific. I can say to the noble Baroness that we are seeking terms that are satisfactory, that are fair and are acceptable to the people of this country, so that we can remain within the Community.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I was just hoping that the noble Lord would say "yes" or "no".
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, if I have satisfied the noble Earl I must have dropped into a trap.
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My Lords, I will throw away the notes in relation to Lord Hankey. He spoke about the economic difficulties of this country into which politicians had led us; but I will deal with the noble Lord on another occasion. The noble Baroness, Lady Elliot, asked about the Labour Party sending members to the European Assembly. This is a matter to which the Labour Party itself will give consideration as we see how renegotiation is proceeding.
I come back to the question of renegotiation. I am sure we would all accept that if the European Community is to have any real meaning, any meaningful future, it must be that all the partners to it are satisfied with the terms. That is all we are seeking. Again because of time, I am not going to ask the noble Baroness to tell me what the Conservative Party have in mind for the political unification of Europe. One of these days I shall be very pleased to know. At present I do not know.
In conclusion, may I say that our aim is to intensify the system of political consultation and co-operation, and to ensure that Europe and the United States work as closely as possible together. As the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary said in another place, we emphatically reject the view that a united Europe can emerge only out of a process of struggle against America. The Government believe that the frictions and misunderstandings which have characterised transatlantic relations in recent months must become a thing of the past, and that Europe and North America must work together to support the common beliefs and ideals and the basic human freedoms and values which they share. Only by so doing can we hope to win the economic benefits and lasting peace for both sides of the Atlantic.
7.40 p.m.
LORD O'HAGAN: My Lords, I have learnt a great deal to-day, which is one way of showing that from this standpoint it has been a most useful and excellent debate. I should not dream of offering prizes to all the speakers in it, because with a few exceptions I should want to offer a prize to everyone who spoke. I make clear my own attitude to the way the debate has gone by saying that the speech I envied most, the one I should have liked most to make, was that of the

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noble Lord, Lord Walston. I say that deliberately to dissociate myself from some of the mockers and knockers on this side of the House. The way the noble Baroness used the term "disastrous" for the Council of Ministers' meeting, and some of the Callaghan baiting that went on, I felt was a little excessive. My own criticisms were entirely levelled at the tone and approach of his opening gambit, in what is always a very abusive meeting place. The Council of Ministers of the E.E.C. is really a horse-trading affair rather than a respectable international forum, with leak and counter leak, rumour and counter rumour, Ministers dashing out and feeding the Press with their own side of the story, and of course everybody is insulted at some point during a negotiation conducted in that way.
Your Lordships may have read in the Observer some rather petty-minded articles about this House. What the writer had to say about our work was really characterised by his insults to the food here, which I myself enjoy very much. If there is a message that goes out to him to-day, it is: "We shall not invite you to eat here again, because you do not appreciate what is good for you". More seriously, I believe that at this stage of the Government's dealings with the Community we may have done some good by drawing together all the various strands of expertise that exist in this House. Perhaps with a little acrimony from time to time, certainly with different points of view, we have coalesced what wisdom there is here. In so doing, I think we have shown one thing absolutely clearly. That is that the relationship of this country with the Community and with the United States is part of a complicated web of an interlocking network of international relationships which hinge one on the other. Anybody who has crude, thrusting notions of doing something unilaterally, without taking into account all the ripples and side-effects, will, I hope, if he bothers to read today's debate, think a little more cautiously. Perhaps I might suggest to the Govern- 1016
ment (and if they are not going to do it I will do it myself), that an account of to-day's debate might be a suitable gift to send to Acapulco for Dr. Kissinger to read on his honeymoon. On all sides, whatever we have disagreed about, we have all stressed the importance of strengthening the links of this country and the Community with the United States.
I should like to say one final word. I originally had down for to-day a Motion calling attention to the advantages and disadvantages of Community membership, but I withdrew it from the Order Paper because I felt that it was a little early for us to see what the Government were going to say and in fact, they have said nothing at all. Therefore, I thought that we had better wait before discussing that subject. When we do discuss it, either as a country or in this House, what we have been talking about to-day will not swing the balance. I do not think that there are many votes in what we have been talking about to-day. I suspect that it would not influence a referendum a great deal. All I am saying, in conclusion—and now I am using this as a platform—is that whatever our standpoint on membership of the Community, we have a right to expect that this Government will inform the people of the country, in a way that the last Government failed to do, about what membership of the Community means. Referenda are all right, but they are unreal and can be misused if there is not sufficiently widespread dissemination of information that is beyond question.
I hope that the relative harmony that has emerged from to-day's debate can be translated into a continuing process of dialogue between those who are for, those who are against and those who are doubtful, so that we can take account of each other's point of view, not become polarised, and if it does come to a referendum make sure that everybody in this country decides knowingly what choice he is making for Britain's future. I thank all noble Lords very much, and I now beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

AYR COUNTY COUNCIL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL ST. ANDREWS LINKS ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL RENFREW COUNTY COUNCIL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Brought from the Commons; read la, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936) deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee.
CRUDE OIL TERMINALS (HUMBER) BILL [H.L.]
Reported without amendment.
ZETLAND COUNTY COUNCIL BILL
Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  E.E.C. MEMBERSHIP AND FOOD PRICES
  E.E.C. MEMBERSHIP AND FOOD PRICES
  MOTORWAYS AND LANE DISCIPLINE
  MOTORWAYS AND LANE DISCIPLINE
  FARM TRACTOR ENGINES: USE OF WASTE SUMP OIL
  FARM TRACTOR ENGINES: USE OF WASTE SUMP OIL