Sitting of 15 March 1973

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRIVATE BUSINESS

  GREATER LONDON COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL (By Order)
  Order read for resuming adjourned debate on Question [6th March], That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  Debate further adjourned till Thursday next.

ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD

    Food Subsidies
    Mr. Hugh Jenkinsasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he now intends to implement EEC Decision 73 /10 authorising the United Kingdom to subsidise sales of butter to social security beneficiaries at an initial rate of 6p per month.
    Mr. Liptonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he has now made a decision on EEC Decision 73/10 authorising the United Kingdom to subsidise sales of butter to social security beneficiaries at an initial rate of 6p per month.
    Mr. Frank Allaunasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he now intends to implement EEC Decision 73/10 authorising the United Kingdom to subsidise sales of butter to recipients of social security at an initial rate of 6p per month.
    The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Joseph Godber): My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State
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    for Social Services and I are considering this matter.
    Mr. Jenkins: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman two questions? First, is it not the case that an authority to subsidise only those in receipt of State help is divisive, and does not this mean that if this sort of thing continues the EEC becomes a force against the social unity which has hitherto characterised this nation?
    Secondly, is not the EEC recommendation proof that right hon. and hon. Members on the Government side of the House who have been saying that one cannot subsidise without rationing have been talking their usual nonsense?
    Mr. Godber: No. The hon. Gentleman's first point concerns one of the issues which we shall have to consider in relation to this matter. His second point refers to a highly selective form of subsidisation, which is quite different from a general subsidisation such as he had in mind.
    Mr. Body: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the last time there was a butter mountain in the Community they were feeding the butter back to the cows? It is rather difficult to find out from the French and others whether they have returned to that practice with yet another butter mountain. Does not my right hon. Friend agree that it is a silly, wasteful and stupid thing to do? Will he do his utmost to see that it is prevented?
    Mr. Codber: The important thing is to try to get a proper balance between supply and demand, and this is what we have to seek to achieve in the Community as a whole.
    I share my hon. Friend's concern about the wastage when there is a gross excess, and this will be a question to consider when we talk about prices in Brussels later this month.
    Mr. Allaun: If we are to suffer the serious disadvantages of joining the Common Market, should not we allow a very limited number of the population to benefit from this tiny concession after the hugh increase in butter prices resulting from joining the Common Market?
    Mr. Godber: We are considering this matter. We have to keep it in proportion. The benefit of this concession would be

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    about 6p on a pound of butter, once a month only, to an individual consumer who would be qualified to receive it. That represents only about 1½p a week. One has to think of this in relation to the cost of administering a scheme such as this. This is a somewhat doubtful benefit.
    Mr. Marten: Does my right hon. Friend recall that in the debate on the Opposition motion to reduce the cost of television licences the Government amendment specifically said that they were against any benefits in kind? Surely this would be a benefit in kind. Where do the Government stand in terms of consistent policy over these matters?
    Mr. Godber: The Government are certainly consistent in relation to this matter. The point with which I was dealing was that this was a Community decision, and Britain has to consider whether it would be appropriate for us to apply it. We have not yet decided whether it is appropriate.
    Mr. Buchan: Is not the Minister very much out of touch with the nutritional habits of our people? He has said that a pound of butter for an old-age pensioner every month is a small amount, but it is a good deal more than many old-age pensioners are able to eat at present. Does not the Minister agree that even to do this—I hope that he will—makes nonsense of all his arguments that we could not have food subsidisation in this country because it would lead to rationing? It is precisely selective rationing that we have been arguing for in relation to meat and other commodities of this kind.
    Mr. Godber: The hon. Gentleman must have misunderstood what I said. I did not say that 1 lb. of butter per month was a small amount. I said that the amount of subsidisation was small. It is 6p a month, which represents 1½p a week. I did not suggest that 1 lb. of butter was looked upon as a small amount in relation to a pensioner's consumption. I am well aware of the position in regard to that.
    On the hon. Gentleman's second point, I can only repeat what I said earlier, namely, that this is a very selective degree of subsidisation, which is directed at particular classes of the community which afford means of identifying clearly the
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    people who comprise them. That is the difference between this and a general subsidisation.
    Mr. Johnasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will list the subsidies on foodstuffs which will be terminated by 1st January 1974 as infringing United Kingdom obligations to the European Economic Community.
    Mr. Ormeasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he will give an assurance that he will not discontinue the present subsidies to sugar or bacon during 1973.
    The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mrs. Peggy Fenner): The present subsidy on bacon will be phased out by 1st June, and the subsidy on sugar will be phased out by 1st July.
    Mr. John: Does the hon. Lady concede that this will add substantially to the burdens of housewives, particularly those in low-paid families? Does she agree that this is a direct result not of world conditions but of our entry into the EEC?
    Mrs. Fenner: Current world bacon prices reflect traders' responses to the market situation rather than to any EEC arrangement. As only 40 per cent. is British bacon, current imported prices have already had some effect, though this is nothing to do with the EEC.
    Mr. Orme: Does the hon. Lady agree that the ending of subsidies means increases in bacon prices, and that this will be something which the Government will not be able to control? Will she give some advice on bacon? According to today's Guardian, she said that housewives will have to do something about the situation. When will she, as a Minister, do something about increased prices?
    Mrs. Fenner: I am sorry, but I did not see that exact quotation in the Guardian. As I said in the House on 8th March, the first phasing out of the bacon stabiliser will add about ½p per lb to bacon prices; but, as many housewives already know, current imported prices which have been increased have been equalised over much of the bacon sold in our shops next to British bacon.
    Mr. Farr: Is it a fact that the price of a number of sugar products, such as

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    sweets, will be reduced as soon as the tax on them is abolished? Will my hon. Friend tell the Minister that we are grateful to him for having taken note of our request a month ago, and persuade the Chancellor of the Exchequer to reduce or abolish purchase tax on these important food items?
    Mrs. Fenner: My hon. Friend is right. In total the food index has been lowered by 1·2 per cent. because of food items which have now been taken out of VAT, plus an estimated ¼per cent. for the removal of the second half of SET. This will show a difference of 1½ per cent. in the food index.

    Pre-packed Foods
    Miss Lestorasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if, in view of the growing practice of pre-packaging of food, he will initiate an inquiry into the difficulties experienced by single pensioners in purchasing small quantities of food.
    Mrs. Fenner: No. The food trade is well aware of the need for small packs. I have been encouraged by the response since my right hon. Friend's predecessor wrote to the trade about the matter in March 1971.
    Miss Lestor: Is the hon. Lady aware that this varies enormously throughout the country and that in many areas it is almost impossible for a person to buy fewer than six eggs or less than half a pound of butter or half a pound of margarine at a time because of the tendency to pre-pack? Since elderly people in particular are not able to shop around in the way that younger people can, will she please reconsider the point and set up an inquiry to consider this situation?
    Mrs. Fenner: I know that a number of grocery supermarkets have already conducted successful experiments with small packs. I hope that this will continue. I share the hon. Lady's interest in this matter and I plan to visit an organisation which has made a speciality of this early in April.

    Food Prices
    Mr. Farrasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what has
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    been the rise in the food price index since June 1970.
    Mr. Boscawenasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the rise in the food price index since June 1970.
    Mr. Kimballasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the rise in the food price index since June 1970.
    Mr. Skinnerasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what have been the increases in food prices since June 1970.
    Mr. Charles Morrisonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food by what amount the food price index has risen since June 1970.
    Mr. Carterasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what percentage increase in the cost of food has taken place since June 1970.
    Mr. Alfred Morrisasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will state the percentage increase in food prices between June 1970 and the latest date for which figures are available.
    Mr. Kilfedderasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the rise in the food price index since June 1970.
    Mr. William Priceasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food by what percentage food prices have risen since June 1970.
    Mr. Stonehouseasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what has been the rise in the food price index since June 1970.
    Mr. Godber: As stated in reply to the hon. Member for Rugy (Mr. William Price) on 8th March, the figure is 27·4 per cent.—[Vol. 852, c. 174.]
    Mr. Farr: Can my right hon. Friend say how this will compare with the rise in the retirement pension when the new rates come into effect in October?
    Mr. Godber: The pension has risen 35 per cent. over the period. When the

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    new proposals come into effect on 1st October it will have risen 55 per cent. since we came into office.
    Mr. Skinner: Can the Minister tell us what food prices the Government have controlled? Eggs, bacon, butter, sugar, processed foods, meat, all fresh foods—none is controlled. What is there left?
    Mr. Godber: I am happy to explain to the hon. Gentleman that we made it perfectly clear that fresh food was not included in the standstill arrangement. The reasons have been explained countless times in the House. A restriction was placed on processed foods and increases have been allowed only for unavoidable increased costs. Since the standstill, up to the latest available date the rise in food prices has amounted to 3·5 per cent.
    Mr. Boscawen: We are all concerned about the rise in food prices, but will my right hon. Friend say how much average weekly earnings in some industries, for example, motor manufacturing, have risen during the same period?
    Mr. Godber: It is possible to choose different categories. I understand that in the motor manufacturing industry the rise in earnings has been around 30·3 per cent. The general rise in earnings has been about 34 per cent. This is the true comparison, overall, with the food price rise of 27·4 per cent.
    Mr. Carter: Does the right hon. Gentleman not agree that it is an absolute disgrace, after two-and-a-half years of showing no concern whatsoever, that his hon. Friends on the back benches should suddenly start littering the Order Paper with Questions? May I direct his mind to the rising cost of eggs? We are promised that the price of eggs will rise to 50p a dozen. Is it not likely that if they continue rising in price along with other food, the slogan of the Egg Marketing Board will be changed from "Go to work on an egg" to "Last the week out on an egg"?
    Mr. Godber: I do not see any reason why the hon. Gentleman should feel that he and his hon. Friends have priority in tabling Questions about food prices. It is quite normal for my hon. Friends to wish to ask such questions. It is true that eggs have risen in price recently but I do not
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    accept the forecast of the extent to which the price will rise.
    Mr. Morrison: Will my right hon. Friend say what evaluation he has made of the effect of the concessions announced by the Chancellor last week with regard to VAT? Referring to the question by my hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Mr. Boscawen), will my right hon. Friend say how much earnings have increased in the electricity supply industry?
    Mr. Godber: The avoidance of VAT on foods which had previously been subject to purchase tax will reduce the tax on food by over £100 million in a full year. This represents 1·2 per cent. on the food index. I believe that the earnings of electricity supply workers have risen by about 40 per cent.
    Mr. Price: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that some of the "regulars" among Opposition Members welcome the interest of his hon. Friends over the vexed question of food prices, even if they did take some persuasion? Will he answer one straightforward question? At the present rate of progress, is it not likely that by the end of this Parliament the Government will have increased food prices by well over 50 per cent.?
    Mr. Godber: I do not propose to forecast what the position will be at the end of this Parliament. What I do say is that earnings and pensions have risen substantially more than food prices and at present the purchasing power of every section of the community is better than it was when the hon. Gentleman's Government left office.
    Mr. Kilfedder: My right hon. Friend has said that earnings have risen considerably. Will he say how much the earnings of coalminers have risen during this period? Will he consider the situation in Northern Ireland, where earnings have not risen at the same rate? Will he contemplate publishing a separate food price index for Northern Ireland? Is he aware that farmers in Northern Ireland are producing eggs extremely cheaply which ought to be available equally cheaply to customers?
    Mr. Godber: We all recognise the special problems of Northern Ireland. I could not undertake to produce a separate price index for Northern Ireland.

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    We all sympathise with the problems experienced by the people in the Province. To deal with my hon. Friend's other question, I believe that the increase in coalminers' earnings has been substantially more than the increase in the cost of food. I think the increase for them has been between 30 per cent. and 40 per cent.
    Mr. Stonehouse: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that certain basic foodstuffs are absolutely vital in the housekeeping budgets of lower-paid families, and that this applies particularly to bread? Will he say how long he expects to hold the price of bread, in the light of the increased price of wheat in world markets?
    Mr. Godber: I recognise that bread is a matter of particular concern. I and some of my colleagues had discussions with some of the leading bakers yesterday, as the right hon. Gentleman will have seen in the Press. We expressed to them our great concern about the need to keep prices down. I cannot say for how long this will be possible, because the increased costs have been substantial. It will be for the present anyway.
    Mr. Buchan: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the figures he has quoted are those which we have heard about three times over? Is it not time that the Ministry gave us some up-to-date figures? Does he not agree that the increase in fresh food prices up to this week, from the beginning of the freeze, has been about 15 per cent.—a rate of increase of about 45 per cent. per annum? By how much have farm workers' wages risen since the beginning of the freeze?
    Mr. Godber: I do not understand how the hon. Gentleman arrives at his percentage figures. They bear no relation to reality. I have told him that since the beginning of the freeze food prices have risen by 3·5 per cent. The hon. Gentleman knows that this is the January figure. The February figure will be published at the normal time, and fresh food will show some further rises. I have never tried to hide that from the House. As for farm workers' wages—
    Mr. Kaufman: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I give notice that I intend to raise a point of order about these answers at the end of Question Time.
    Mr. Godber: I am not sure whether I am permitted to complete the answer. I understand that farm workers' wages have risen by 24·2 per cent.
    Mr. Edward Taylorasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement on butter prices.
    Mrs. Fenner: Average retail prices of New Zealand and Danish butter are about 23p and 25p per lb, respectively. Retail butter prices generally are over 20 per cent. lower than a year ago.
    Mr. Edward Taylor: Will my hon. Friend say what increase in butter prices will apply over the next two years because of the EEC regulations? Does she agree that although the housewife will accept the logic of paying more for meat because of a shortage it will be difficult to persuade her that she should pay more for butter when there is a glut?
    Mrs. Fenner: The first move towards alignment of United Kingdom-Community intervention prices of butter is expected to take place on 1st May, but because we negotiated relatively low initial intervention prices, this is the first step, which should have relatively little effect on prices in the shops. Over the transitional period our intervention price will move to that of the Community and market prices will respond accordingly.
    Mr. Deakins: Will British housewives be able to continue to benefit from lower world butter prices throughout the transitional period and thereafter?
    Mrs. Fenner: No, Sir. The hon. Gentleman knows that over the transitional period our price will go up by degrees to the market price in the Community.
    Sir Robin Turtonasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what was the retail price of a dozen standard eggs in February 1963 and February 1973, respectively.
    Mrs. Fenner: The average retail price of standard eggs was about 24½p per dozen both in February 1963 and in February 1973.
    Sir Robin Turton: Was not the reason for this surprising result the fact that the Community was subsidising exports

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    of eggs to this country? Is there not a lesson to be drawn—namely, that if one takes away profitability from the home producer by dumping one is likely to find that the glut is followed by scarcity, with rising prices?
    Mrs. Fenner: The Community has not had the effect to which my right hon. Friend referred.
    Mr. Kaufman: Can the Minister assure the House that since the soaring prices of beef, fish and cheese are causing proteins to be priced out of the diet of my constituents, there will not be a 1s. egg, and that my constituents will be able to go on enjoying eggs at the price in which the Minister now rejoices?
    Mrs. Fenner: I do not believe that the hon. Member for Manchester, Ardwick (Mr. Kaufman) has been buying beef over the last few weeks, because the price of it has been falling. The prognosticational clairvoyance on the 1s. egg has been made annually for many years.
    Mr. Atkinson: Go to strike on an egg!
    Mr. Thomas Coxasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what survey is undertaken by his Department on the prices that are paid at vegetable and fruit auction markets in this country.
    The Minister of State for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Anthony Stodart): My Department's price survey arrangements do not extend to auction markets for fruit and vegetables, which handle only a small proportion of our supplies.
    Mr. Cox: Is the Minister aware of the vast amount of profit that is being made out of prices that are paid in auction markets and therefore out of the prices that the housewife must pay eventually in the shops? Surely a survey would soon indicate the vast amount of money that the same racketeers who are cashing in on every price increase are making on home-produced vegetables and fruit? Is it not time that the Minister gave housewives some indication that he will act where he possibly can? He can act in this matter, because it is happening in this country.
    Mr. Stodart: We survey prices from nine major markets, and they are reported
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    weekly. Those markets have fairly substantial throughputs. As I have explained, we do not survey auction markets. As for what the hon. Member said about prices, there is, as he knows, no standstill on fresh produce which is going into the markets but there is upon distributors' margins.
    Mr. Buchanan: Will the Minister indicate what these prices are? My figures—which the Minister usually challenges—which apply up to last weekend show that since the beginning of the freeze there has been an increase in fruit prices of just over 50 per cent. [An HON. MEMBER: "Wrong again."] I should like to be proved wrong. The Minister's figures are three months behind the times. I hope that he can show me where I am wrong in my figures. In the same period, what increase has been put upon farm workers' wages—that is, from the beginning of November last year?
    Mr. Stodart: The hon. Member must put down a Question if he wants me to answer it.

    Food Surpluses
    Mr. Deakinsasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what benefit he estimates the British consumer will obtain from the surplus butter stocks in the EEC.
    Mrs. Fenner: Surplus butter is currently available at low prices from intervention stocks for a number of purposes. The main one of interest to British consumers provides for such butter to be used in the production of cakes, biscuits and ice cream. I would hope that manufacturers of these products would take up this opportunity and pass any savings on to consumers.
    Mr. Deakins: Will the hon. Lady confirm that under the absurd restrictionist rules of the common agricultural policy we will not be able to have the general consumer subsidy on butter to dispose of the surplus butter stocks?
    Mrs. Fenner: I have referred to one way in which the EEC regulates these butter stocks. There are other ways.
    Mr. Body: May I ask my hon. Friend the same question I put to my right hon. Friend? Is she aware that the last time there was a butter mountain the French and others were feeding it back to the

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    cows? We do not know whether they are doing it again with this present butter mountain.
    Mrs. Fenner: The EEC countries have made a number of regulations for disposing of surplus butter, to one of which I have referred. Another refers to butter for charitable institutions, and another provides for butter to be melted down and supplied to African and Asian States.
    Mr. English: Will the hon. Lady confirm that in his previous answer her right hon. Friend did not mention that the maximum subsidy that we can give to butter will increase during the transitional period, probably starting in April? Will she also confirm that her right hon. Friend has now instituted a system whereby his Department is informed of Community decisions on this butter problem?
    Mrs. Fenner: In answer to the first question, the subsidy will increase to some extent.
    Mr. Moateasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what is the size of the beet sugar surplus of production over consumption within each of the six original members of the European Community.
    Mr. Godber: The estimated beet sugar surplus in the current crop year, expressed in terms of white sugar, is about 920,000 tons in France, 260,000 tons in Belgium and Luxembourg taken together, and 100,000 tons in the Netherlands. A deficit of some 400,000 tons is expected in Italy and 50,000 tons in Germany.
    Mr. Moate: Does my right hon. Friend agree that there is a Community obligation to provide a continuing market for sugar, particularly from the developing countries of the Commonwealth? Does he further agree that any increase in these already serious surpluses would run counter to that obligation particularly with regard to France?
    Mr. Godber: I entirely agree that there is an obligation, which has been accepted, relating to Community sugar. This is spelled out in Protocol 17 of the Treaty of Accession for the period up to the end of 1974 and in Protocol 22 for the period thereafter. There is a definite undertaking there. I remind my hon. Friend that a substantial proportion of these surpluses are quota C sugar, which
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    the country concerned has to export outside the Community.
    Mr. David Clark: Will the right hon. Gentleman give us a further assurance that the Government will not support any action which would result in the cutting back of the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement and lead to the collapse of the International Sugar Agreement?
    Mr. Godber: I am happy to give that assurance. This is a matter of great concern to the Government. We are anxious to maintain the position for the developing Commonwealth countries. Queensland production is in a different category, and has always been accepted as such. We accept the position. Earlier this week, in talking informally with the Agricultural Commissioner in Brussels I reminded him of the importance of this matter. This is something about which both sides of the House agree.
    Sir D. Renton: Will my right hon. Friend confirm that this surplus on the Continent will not deprive our own farmers of the opportunity to produce sugar beet when they can increase production?
    Mr. Godber: I entirely agree, representing as I do—like my right hon. and learned Friend—a constituency in which much of this sugar is produced. I am well aware of the need to produce sugar most efficiently, and this is something which we do.
    Mr. Stonehouse: What representations is the right hon. Gentleman proposing to make to EEC countries, particularly France, asking them to reduce beet production in view of our commitments to places such as Mauritius and Fiji?
    Mr. Godber: We have a definite undertaking from the Community about Commonwealth sugar and we will look to the Community to honour that. Later this month we will be having discussions with Commonwealth countries about the future. Community production is a matter closely linked with the quotas and prices. We will be talking about prices at the next meeting of the Council of Agricultural Ministers, when I shall have this point very much in mind.

    Intervention Board
    Mr Jayasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether

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    he will give an assurance that the Intervention Board will in no circumstatnces render food unfit for human consumption.
    Mr. Anthony Stodart: No, Sir.
    Mr. Jay: If the Government cannot give that assurance, how can they pretend that they are not responsible for rising food prices, when they are deliberately setting up an Intervention Board whose sole purpose is to keep prices up by taking supplies off the market?
    Mr. Stodart: There is absolutely nothing new in rendering food unfit for human consumption. The Labour Government did it nearly every year.
    Mr. Charles Morrison: It would appear that the knowledge of agriculture possessed by the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) is so minute that he does not know that much of the grain produced in this country has always been used for animal feedingstuffs. Can my hon. Friend give an assurance that fish oil and dye will have no ill effects on those who purchase meat which has been treated by grain products?
    Mr. Stodart: Yes, Sir, I can.
    Mr. Buchan: I presume the hon. Gentleman is saying that in future we shall not be able to see any purple cows. Surely he is wrong to say that this position has always prevailed. He is presumably referring to potatoes, and no doubt will agree that in the past the potato acreage planting was tightly controlled and that the removal from human consumption factor had a lot to do with transport problems. Will he further agree that what we are now facing is a deliberate removal of food for human consumption in order to put up the price as an exercise in Common Market merchandising?
    Mr. Stodart: Not for the first time I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman in all he says. This has not been confined to potatoes. Sugar has also been affected and deliberately denatured by the Labour Government and by other Governments for certain purposes. This is a different method of supporting the agricultural market from methods previously followed.

    Whale Products
    Mr. David Jamesasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether he has yet discovered a satisfactory substitute for sperm oil to enable him to ban the importation of all whale products.
    Sir J. Langford-Holtasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what consideration he has now given to the prohibition of the imports of whale products; and whether he will make a statement.
    Mr. Anthony Stodart: Investigations undertaken by the Department of Trade and Industry into sperm oil usage have indicated that substitutes for some of its uses are available but that certain industries would face difficulties if it were not imported. Sperm whales have not been over-exploited, but baleen whales have. So to supplement the measures of the International Whaling Commission the Government are banning all imports of whale products, except sperm oil, spermaceti wax, ambergris and those products incorporated abroad into manufactured goods. The ban will start from midnight tonight.
    Mr. James: My hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury (Sir J. Langford-Holt) is sorry that he cannot be here. Does my hon. Friend recognise that this is very good news, which will be widely welcomed far beyond the confines of both sides of the House? I do not wish to sound ungracious, but will he persist in his researches with a view to making the ban total as soon as possible?
    Mr. Stodart: I have been conscious of the feelings on this subject, owing to the very substantial mail that I have received in the last three days from all over the country. I undertake to look as closely as I can into my hon. Friend's request.

    Veal (Additives)
    Mrs. Joyce Butlerasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what action he intends to take following representations by the Veterinary Products Committee in relation to injectable oestrogens in veal production; and if he will make a statement.
    Mrs. Fenner: Following the advice of the Veterinary Products Committee and

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    after consulting interested organisations, my right hon. Friends concerned with health matters are about to make regulations under Part H of the Therapeutic Substances Act 1956 to prohibit the retail sale and supply of liquid injectable preparations of stilboestrol, hexoestrol and dienoestrol except by a qualified medical, dental or veterinary surgeon or practitioner, or by a pharmacist acting in accordance with a prescription given by such surgeon or practitioner.
    Mrs. Butler: I welcome the news that action is to be taken. Will it be possible to enlighten the public about the health dangers arising from these liquid injections by publishing the reasons for the advisory committee's concern? Will the hon. Lady say whether the regulations will cover hormone pellets and hormone additives to feedingstuffs, and whether this will extend to all food animals as well as to calves?
    Mrs. Fenner: I should like notice of the second part of the hon. Lady's question, so that I can give her a full reply. I can assure her that the Veterinary Products Committee recommends that further consideration should be given to all those other products as other information becomes available. The matter will be kept under continuous review.
    Dr. Stuttaford: What steps does my hon. Friend intend to take to prevent the importation of beef raised in Ireland, which does not have the same restrictions on veterinary products and may continue to use oestrogens and antibiotics indiscriminately and dangerously?
    Mrs. Fenner: I shall write to my hon. Friend on that subject.

    Hill Farming
    Mr. Maclennanasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if he will make a statement about the proposals of the EEC Commission for hill farming.
    Mr. Anthony Stodart: The Commission has issued a draft directive on farming in mountainous and other less-favoured areas of the Community. The proposals include annual payments on a headage basis to hill livestock producers, on the model of our hill cow and hill sheep subsidies. Consultations with all member States are now proceeding; a number of
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    points will need to be explored further before the Council takes a decision.
    Mr. Maclennan: I welcome in general terms the principles underlying these proposals for a special system of aid to assist poorer farming areas, and the proposed income subsidies, but what is the Government's attitude to what I regard as the unrealistic limitation of this régime of special aid to 2·5 per cent. of the area of the nation State? Will the hon. Gentleman give the House an opportunity to study these proposals very carefully? Finally, can he say when these proposals are likely to come before the Council of Ministers?
    Mr. Stodart: I cannot say anything worth while on the last point, but I shall try to reassure the hon. Gentleman on the figure of 2·5 per cent., which worried me considerably when I first read it. It does not apply over the whole field. I took the precaution—and I thought that I could not go to a better authority—of asking the Secretary of the National Farmers' Union of Scotland if he had spotted this. He reassured me that the union was satisfied that it did not mean what it appeared to mean.
    Mr. Fletcher-Cooke: Can my hon. Friend say in general terms whether hill farmers will do better as a result of these regulations than without them?
    Mr. Stodart: Because of the increased value of end prices, I believe that there will be a very good future for hill farmers, regardless of any question of our entry into the Community—a very much better future than there was a few years ago.
    Mr. David Clark: We welcome the conversion of the EEC to a system of help for the hill farmers similar to that which we have adopted, but will the hon. Gentleman consider one suggestion? Since the easiest way of administering this help might be to have a body such as the rural development board, will he look into the possibility of re-establishing such a board—probably starting in the North Pennines?
    Mr. Stodart: It is fair to say that the bulk of aid to the hill farmers has always been given in Scotland, for obvious reasons, and I would point out that Scotland does not have a rural development board.
    Mr. Hicks: Will my hon. Friend clarify the position of capital grants at present available to hill areas? Will he also elaborate on the proposal to bring marginal land, as opposed to hill land, into the scheme?
    Mr. Stodart: The improvement of hill land by the use of capital grants is highly desirable. It is not clear whether the directive covers this, and I should like to explore that question. On marginal grants it appears that the criteria of the directive are a little wider than our criteria. As my own farm is outside the hill areas, I declare my interest, and I hope profoundly that I shall not have to scratch quite so hard for a living as I do at the moment.

    Milk and Dairy Products (Children)
    Dr. Stuttafordasked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food what plans he has to encourage the consumption of milk and dairy produce amongst children following recent research indicating its importance as regards growth, details of which have been supplied to him.
    Mr. Godber: Milk is available free to all primary school children up to around 7½ years of age and to certain other children, including primary school pupils with a medical requirement.
    Dr. Stuttaford: Will the Minister confirm that recent work has shown that milk is an important factor in growth and that if we are to avoid the stunted generation that we had in the 'thirties he must encourage mothers to give their children more milk and he must encourage my right hon. Friends—his colleagues—to encourage mothers to do so?
    Mr. Godber: It is only fair to explain that milk consumption per head in this country is much higher than in most other countries. The benefits of drinking milk, to which my hon. Friend referred, are well known. There is a committee on the medical aspects of food policy which has been locking into the question very closely, and I understand that it will soon be reporting.
    Mr. Pavitt: Has the Minister seen the shocking report that for the first time in a generation rickets is now back in this country? As the committee which the
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    right hon. Gentleman mentioned began monitoring 18 months ago, is it not time we had a report to the House about the effects of taking away school mink?
    Mr. Godber: The question of school milk is one for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science. She answered this point about rickets in school children in a reply she gave to the House the other day.
    Mr. Brocklebank-Fowler: Will my right hon. Friend tell the House what the consumption trends have been over the last 12 months?
    Mr. Godber: The trends show that the consumption of milk has been rising for the first time in several years. In the last 12 months it rose by about 2 per cent. in this country.
    Mr. David Stoddart: Is the Minister also aware that milk provides a protection—particularly in children—against lead poisoning, and will he take this into account in his deliberations? Having done so, will he restore free milk to all schoolchildren?
    Mr. Godber: The question of school milk is one for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and Science. As for lead poisoning, the important thing is to encourage a substantial consumption of milk and this is taking place among our children and throughout the community as a whole.

  INFLATION (PRIME MINISTER'S SPEECH)
  Mr. Wyn Robertsasked the Prime Minister whether he will place in the Library a copy of his public speech to the Institute of Public Relations on 1st March on inflation.
  Mr. Duffyasked the Prime Minister if he will place in the Library a copy of his public speech to the Institute of Public Relations on 1st March on inflation.
  Mr. Atkinsonasked the Prime Minister if he will place in the Library a copy of his public speech to the Institute of Public Relations on inflation on 1st March 1973.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Edward Heath): I did so on 2nd March, Sir.
  Mr. Roberts: The major theme of that speech was the responsibility of the trade unions. Is my right hon. Friend aware that now that the TUC leaders have decided to co-ordinate action in support of those who resist the counter-inflation measures, the Government will have the full support of public opinion in any co-ordinated action they may take to ensure that the trade unionists conform to the law?
  The Prime Minister: I think that my hon. Friend is right. Of course, when I was dealing in that speech with the responsibilities of the trade unions I asked them to consider, and to discuss with us—as we are willing to do—how to coordinate an improvement in wages without producing the leapfrogging which leads to inflation.
  Mr. Duffy: Does the Prime Minister recall concluding his speech by saying that the offer to the unions to share with the Government the management of the economy is still open? Does he think that the Budget statement constituted a sufficient inducement? Does he think that a meaningful dialogue with the unions is possible in the shadow of the Industrial Relations Act, and does he not think that its dispatch would be a small price to pay to relieve the ever-deepening gloom which threatens to envelope and suffocate our society?
  The Prime Minister: That was a part of our dialogue. I invited both the trade unions and the employers to put forward proposals for amendments to the Industrial Relations Act.
  Mr. Atkinson: Does the Prime Minister agree that if workers are to maintain their living standards they need an increase of 8 per cent. in their take-home pay to cover the increase in the cost of living, plus 4 per cent. to make up for the deductions from wages, and therefore that anything less than a 12 per cent. increase for the last 12 months means a reduction in their living standards? Will he confirm that that is part of his strategy?
  The Prime Minister: No. I do not confirm that; I deny it. As I told an hon. Member who asked exactly the same ques-
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  tion earlier this week, last year the increase in earnings was about 16 per cent., and the increase in prices was about 7½ per cent. The hon. Member cannot possibly justify what he is saying in view of the events of last year. We are now dealing with the coming year.
  Mr. Awdry: Will the Prime Minister personally explain to the train drivers' leaders that they are hurting not only the British public but their own prosperity and the future of British Railways?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, that is true, and a very large number of those who are working on the railways realise it. That is why they are continuing to work the railways to the best of their ability.
  Mr. Taverne—
  Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
  Mr. Taverne: While many of us—
  Mr. Skinner: Go on, stir it up.
  Mr. Heffer: Go on, cheer him. They are your friends, Dick.
  Mr. Taverne: Many of us are glad that the Prime Minister has not persisted in his folly of preaching against an incomes policy as he has done for seven years, but is he aware that he will not command general acceptance of such a necessary policy unless he is prepared to take action on rents and food?
  The Prime Minister: The Government have taken action on rents and manufactured food. The prices of manufactured foods have been and are being strictly controlled. On rents, the Government have greatly improved the rebate system so that a man who has a wife and two children and who is on the average industrial earnings will not have to pay an increase in rent even when he gets the increase in pay of £1 plus 4 per cent.

  BELMONT, LINCOLNSHIRE
  Mr. Jeffrey Archerasked the Prime Minister if he will pay an official visit to Belmont, Lincolnshire.
  The Prime Minister: I have at present no plans to do so, Sir.
  Mr. Archer: Does the Prime Minister realise that 57 Members of Parliament,

  1471
  representing nearly 3 million people, are very disturbed by the IBA's decision to transfer Anglia Television to Yorkshire Television? Will he tell the Chairman of the IBA, Lord Aylestone, that ex-Chief Whips must be willing to listen to the views of the people?
  The Prime Minister: Ex-Chief Whips are. Lord Aylestone, as Chairman, and the IBA are responsible for this decision. It is not one in which it would be right for the Government to interfere.
  Mr. Concannon: Is the Prime Minister aware that there are possibly 1½ million people in Nottinghamshire who are not seriously perturbed about what happens to Belmont as long as they get a fair and decent coverage?
  The Prime Minister: I am aware that there are differences of opinion about this matter, which have been shown on the Order Paper.
  Sir D. Renton: Will my right hon. Friend tell Lord Aylestone that Anglia Television has successfully fostered the distinctive culture, traditions, economy and life of East Anglia for many years and that it does not wish to be entertained or indoctrinated by a bunch of Yorkshire-men?
  The Prime Minister: I am certainly well aware now that regional feeling is encouraged by televisison of various kinds. I am sure that my right hon. and learned Friend will inform Lord Aylestone, and that as Chairman of the IBA he will listen.
  Mr. Crosland: This is not entirely a light-hearted matter. Is the Prime Minister aware that there is an overwhelming consumer demand in eastern England to retain Belmont for Anglia Television': Will he assure the House that the inquiry, to which his right hon. Friend the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications referred in his Press conference on Monday, will fully consider the future of Anglia and that, while this inquiry is persisting, no irrevocable awarding of contracts will be made by the IBA which might pre-empt the results of the inquiry?
  The Prime Minister: Certainly the study will be set up as soon as possible and will consider the whole of the regional problems which were outlined by my right hon. Friend. This is a matter for the
  1472
  IBA. It is not treating the matter lightly or frivolously to say so. The IBA has the statutory responsibility, and no Government have interfered in the allocation of contracts of this kind. Therefore, I cannot give an assurance that the IBA will be willing to postpone this matter until the study has reported.

  INDONESIA
  Mr. Dalyellasked the Prime Minister if he will seek to pay an official visit to Indonesia.
  The Prime Minister: My right hon. and noble Friend the Secretary of State for Defence visited Indonesia last month: I have at present no plans for such a visit.
  Mr. Dalyell: Are the Defence Secretary and the British Government sensitive to Indonesia's legitimate concern about French nuclear testing in the Pacific? Since we supported the United Nations resolution on 29th November expressing serious concern about this testing, may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman will at least talk seriously to President Pompidou about it?
  The Prime Minister: As the nearest part of Indonesia to the atoll where the tests take place is more than 6,000 miles away, and as the tests are conducted by the French in such a way that the prevailing winds carry any debris in the opposite direction, the hon. Gentleman's question would not appear to be very relevant.
  Miss Joan Hall: Is my right hon. Friend aware that one the greatest desires of the people in Indonesia is to learn the English language? Although the British Council and VSO do a very good job, it is not enough. Will he take a leaf out of the book of the French Government, who are very enthusiastic about pushing the French language, and be more enthusiastic about making sure that the English language can be learned by people in Indonesia?
  The Prime Minister: I agree with my hon. Friend. When I was in Indonesia I found a deep desire by people to have the facilities for learning English extended, and we have tried to help. If my memory serves me correctly,

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  Indonesia receives more aid from us than any other country outside the Commonwealth.
  Mr. Harold Wilson: Agreeing with the right hon. Gentleman—in answer to similar questions—that both the previous and present Governments were desperately anxious that France should join the test ban agreement, as they show no signs of doing so is the right hon Gentleman against their carrying out these tests in the Pacific?
  The Prime Minister: The French Government are well aware of our views on this matter. We would much prefer them to adhere to the agreement and not carry out the tests. They are well aware of our views—and they were well aware of the Labour Government's views. Our responsibility, so long as tests continue, is to carry out the monitoring so that we can look after the interests of British citizens.
  Mr. Wilson: That is understood. As I have already said, we both take this view—indeed the whole House takes this view—about the French joining the agreement. As they are not joining the agreement, may I ask whether the Prime Minister has represented to the French Government that in present and all future circumstances they should not go ahead with the tests, or has he not made any such representation?
  The Prime Minister: As I have said, the French Government are well aware of our views on the matter. [HON. MEMBERS: "Answer."] I am not going to enable the right hon. Gentleman to cause trouble between ourselves and France, however much he may be trying to do so in his present irresponsible mood. They are well aware of our preference that they should sign the treaty and should therefore not carry out the tests.

  WEST GERMANY (VISIT)
  Mr. Redmondasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on his recent official visit to Bonn.
  Mr. Meacherasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on his recent official visit to West Germany.
  The Prime Minister: I have nothing to add to the reply I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. Marten) on 6th March.—[Vol. 852, c. 231–2.]
  Mr. Redmond: When my right hon. Friend was in Germany did he discuss, or compare with the Germans, our different methods of dealing with social security payments to strikers? If he told the Germans what we do about them, surely they regard us as being stark staring honkers. Has my right hon. Friend noticed that the Ford Motor Company is now manufacturing in Germany cars which used to be manufactured in Britain?
  The Prime Minister: We had a discussion about domestic issues and the social service benefits in the Community as a whole, but not particularly on the question of payments to strikers. As I told the House earlier this week, as far as we can ascertain, no other countries in the Community carry on the same system as ourselves.
  Mr. Meacher: In view of the Government's insistence on unlimited EEC support if sterling joined the collective float, has the Prime Minister discussed the reported West German view that they would not give such support to any country unless it were to pursue "acceptable economic policies"? Will the Government ever join the float on that condition, or could they ever join the float without such conditional support?
  The Prime Minister: That was not the position taken by Chancellor Brandt in our discussions.
  Sir Gilbert Longden: All his allies were fully informed of and agreed with Herr Brandt's Ostpolitik, but did my right hon. Friend discuss with Herr Brandt the urgent necessity of all the Western allies speaking with one voice at the European Security Conference?
  The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir. This was not the first time that we had discussed it. We have discussed it on previous occasions at our meetings. It has been evident in Helsinki that certainly the members of the Community have been speaking with one voice. It is fully accepted by the member Governments.
  Mr. Grimond: Did the Prime Minister take advantage of his visit to Bonn to discuss the question of directors of companies elected by the workers? If not, will he have a study made of this matter, because it will be a very live issue in the Common Market?
  The Prime Minister: Yes. I discussed this matter at my two previous meetings with the German Chancellor. This was why we included in the Summit communiqué in Paris in October a reference to the fact that the Commission was asked to carry out a study of worker participation and social developments of this kind and to present its study to the Council of Ministers for decision.

  CIVIL SERVICE
  Mr. Carterasked the Prime Minister if he will give up his responsibility for the Civil Service Department.
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir.
  Mr. Carter: Can the Civil Service any longer have confidence in a man who has clearly gone back on undertakings made to it when he was in Opposition? In these circumstances, would it not be the honourable thing for the Prime Minister at least to apologise for those original assurances?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I can tell the House yet again of the basis for the operation of the Civil Service which was agreed in 1971 between myself and those with whom we were discussing these matters. It was confirmed in the letter which said that we would adhere to the Priestley arrangements for pay research,
  "subject to any requirements of an overriding national policy of general application".
  Whatever views there may be about the Government's prices and incomes policy, or what Parliament may carry through in legislation, no one can deny that it is an overriding national policy, that it therefore governs the situation, and that the Civil Service is in the same position as any other negotiating group.
  Mr. Body: Will my right hon. Friend tell us whether, since he has been Minister for the Civil Service, there has been any change in the size of the Civil Service?
  The Prime Minister: There has been a considerable number of changes. If my hon. Friend wants the details they can be made available in HANSARD.
  Mr. Kaufman: Since the right hon. Gentleman retains these responsibilities, does he accept responsibility for the violation of Section 2 of the Counter-Inflation (Temporary Provisions) Act by the award of a 16 per cent. increase to consultants on medical tribunals, which was implemented on 29th January and backdated to March 1972?
  The Prime Minister: If the hon. Gentleman wants to ask a specific question about that he can put it down to my right hon. Friend. As he has raised the matter, I will inquire into this to see whether it is a breach of the code. If it is, when the law is passed action can be taken against it. As for the civil servants, it is open to them to negotiate now for an increase on 1st April, and the longer the Civil Service unions put this off, I am afraid, the greater will be the delay to their members in getting what is available under stage 2.
  Mr. Harold Wilson: Allowing for the normal qualifications about hiving off, and in relation to the question of his hon. Friend the Member for Bolton, West (Mr. Redmond), can the Prime Minister say whether the size of the non-industrial Civil Service has gone up or down under his administration?
  The Prime Minister: The present figures show that it has gone up under the present administration. As I have said, if the right hon. Gentleman or anyone else wants the detailed figures, including the hiving off, they can easily be made available.

  HOSPITAL ANCILLARY STAFF (DISPUTE)
  Mr. John Silkin(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for the Social Services whether, in view of the demand of the BMA for a full inquiry into the pay and structure of the ancillary hospital staff and the concurrence in that demand of the National Union of Public Employees, he will agree to the setting up of such an inquiry.
  The Secretary of State for Social Services (Sir Keith Joseph): I have said

  1477
  several times that it is open to the trade unions concerned to put their case to the Pay Board, and I very much hope that they will agree to do so.
  Mr. Silkin: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in the context of the dispute in the hospital service, that must be a very disappointing reply? Can he answer the following three specific questions? First, can he confirm that, in the report from the Department of Employment which he received in February 1972, it was stated:
  "The Service has for a long time been able to get by on the goodwill of its employees. There are signs that a more positive approach is needed."
  Can he also confirm that no increase in pay has been received by the ancillary hospital staff since that date?
  Second, does he agree that the Pay Board operates only in an advisory capacity and that, even if its advice were followed, it would not be until December of this year that the ancillary staff received a revised increase—in other words, nearly two years after the Department of Employment's report?
  Third, is not the urgent need now to get the hospitals back to full manning? In view of the unanimity of those who work in the Health Service, will not the Secretary of State, who has the personal responsibility for the running of the Health Service, change his mind even at this late hour and fall in with their wishes?
  Sir K. Joseph: The Department of Employment report was mainly concerned with industrial relations and pointed out that there was no personnel department in the National Health Service—a lack which this Government recognise and which we shall be putting right under the new reorganised Health Service from April next year. The ancillary staff received their last pay increase in December 1971 and would have been due for a pay increase four months ago, in December 1972, but suffered a deferment until this very week, when £2 extra for men and £1·80 extra for women is available once their unions accept the offer.
  It is true that the Pay Board, which is ready in shadow form to receive their case, could only make recommendations to Government, but that would be true of an inquiry which might be set up.
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  As for bringing to an end the tragic dispute which has affected patients and their families, nurses and doctors and all other staff in the Health Service, of course the Government want it to come to an end. But I must say again that it is just not possible, in the national interest, to make a special case of any workers, even the hospital staff, because of the repercussions upon other unions and because of the pre-eminent necessity of combating inflation.
  That is why the Government ask again that the unions should accept the extra which is available this week, put their case to the Pay Board and go back to their proper and I believe well-loved function of serving the patients of this country.
  Mr. Fry: Will my right hon. Friend join me and many of my constituents in praising the public spirit of the hospital ancillary workers in Kettering and Wellingborough who, despite their low pay, have remained at work and not endangered the welfare of patients in my constituency?
  Sir K. Joseph: I should like to take the opportunity to praise the hospital staff of all sorts who have, by their valiant efforts, maintained the service to the public as best they may, and to pay tribute to the ancillary staff where they have stayed at work and those who have carried out essential services under the agreement that their unions have made and have in general tried to fulfil.
  Mr. Pavitt: Does not the right hon. Gentleman recall that in each previous pay freeze it has been the ancillary hospital workers who have been the first to be caught and that the only people in the National Health Service who have ever had retrospective pay are doctors? In view of the present situation, is it not time that he intervened so as to be able to put forward some constructive suggestions, such as those which have emerged in the gas industry, where there are possibilities of negotiating and conciliating instead of this stubborn attitude which means that these hard-pressed and hard-working people are being held to ransom by the rest of the nation?
  Sir K. Joseph: I do not think that the ancillary workers, who have an offer this week of £2 extra for men and £1·80 for women, are being held to ransom by the

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  nation. The formula which the Government are applying under stage 2 is particularly favourable to the low paid. Never before, I believe, has there been a case in which the extra offered to the lower paid is as close to the extra offered to the higher paid as in this case.
  Mr. Edward Taylor: Would my right hon. Friend agree that, while a number of workers concerned are indeed low paid, this is not something that has suddenly happened in the last two years of Conservative Government? Would he agree that the right policy is to accept the increase and to have any major anomalies sorted out by the end of the year?
  Sir K. Joseph: I agree with every word of my hon. Friend.
  Mr. William Hamilton: Does not the right hon. Gentleman agree that the ancillary workers and the nurses are probably the least militant section of the workers' movement in this country and that the fact that they are out on strike or threatening to strike shows the injustice that they feel has been meted out to them? Can the right hon. Gentleman really ask the House to believe that a £1 increase to the women in the service will increase their standard of living or even sustain their existing standard of living during the next six or 12 months? Will he give us the information to show to which figures that £1 is an addition for the women and the £2 is an addition for the men?
  Sir K. Joseph: I readily acknowledge that the ancillary staff have been disappointed not to be offered the same as local government workers accepted last autumn. There is a 40p a week difference between what the local government workers accepted and what the ancillary workers have been offered. The £1·80—not £1—extra a week for women will be followed by a further 80p a week in October as a further step towards equal pay, which will raise the average pay of women in the service from just under £21 a week to just under £23 a week, which is well above the average pay for women in this country.
  Mr. Farr: Would my right hon. Friend not agree that the only way to make this policy work is to have no exceptions whatever, and that if exceptions were to
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  have been made, an even more deserving case is that of agricultural workers, who could probably have had an exception if one had been going?
  Sir K. Joseph: I am sure that my hon. Friend is right—that this policy, which is in the national interest, depends upon no exceptions being made. The Pay Board and its recommendations for stage 3 exist to consider anomalies arising from the interaction of the standstill and stage 2.
  Mr. Edward Short: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is now the second strike which could almost certainly have been settled if the Government had been prepared to swallow their pride and accept proposals made from the Opposition Front Bench? The first strike was the gas workers' strike. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition made a proposal for a Royal Commission, which the Prime Minister turned down out of hand. The second strike is the present strike, and a proposal has been made that could end it. Is it not outrageous that these two damaging strikes should be allowed to continue and that the Government should sit there and be unprepared to raise a finger to stop them?
  Sir K. Joseph: The Government are not prepared to give way to rampant inflation—as right hon. and hon. Members opposite were in their last year of Government. It is common ground that if any special case is made during stage 2 other unions will seek to follow the precedent. Other unions are not prepared, so far as I can tell, to regard the hospital workers as a special case.
  Dr. Summerskill: Does the right hon. Gentleman claim that a rise of £1·80 for the women is helping the low paid and the furtherance of equal pay, which his Government claim to be undertaking? Will he bear in mind that two-thirds of the hospital ancillary workers are women? In fact, lie is giving his proclaimed £2 to only one-third of the hospital ancillary workers. Those women do not feel that he is fully recognising the work which many of them have given since 1948 to the hospital service.
  Sir K. Joseph: The women in the service are being offered £2·60 extra this

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  year—that is £1·80 this week and a further 80p in October. That is a sizeable extra in proportionate terms on their earnings, and a much higher one on their basic rate. It represents far more for the low paid and for women than the Labour Party were prepared to provide during their period of office.
  Miss Joan Hall: Is my right hon. Friend aware that a lot of the people out on strike at the moment, including many hospital secretaries, did not want to go out on strike in the first place? They want to get back to work but they are not allowed to do so by certain people who are intimidating them?
  Sir K. Joseph: There is certainly evidence in some areas of a most praiseworthy devotion to patients. I would rather not say more than that at the moment.
  Mr. Harold Wilson: As the right hon. Gentleman is standing on no other argument except that there must be no exception during phase 2, will he say why the Government allowed newspaper proprietors in the standstill during phase 1 to pay in respect of a previously concluded agreement, which newspaper proprietors said did not qualify under phase 1 and from which two leading newspapers dissociated themselves, saying that it was not allowable? Will the right hon. Gentleman say why the Government allowed that, and why he cannot allow this particular case under phase 2?
  Sir K. Joseph: I am not standing in the way, as the right hon. Gentleman suggests. This is a perfectly reasonable offer to make to the ancillary staff. It is the second best in the history of the National Health Service. The Pay Board is available to consider a case for further treatment during stage 3. I am not ashamed of this offer.
  Mr. Lomas: As the secretary of the NUPE Members of Parliament, may I ask the Secretary of State whether he will agree that a basic rate of £18 a week is just not good enough and that the average earnings are well below the average earnings in other industries? Will he not further agree, if he considers the whole object of the Government's policy of £1 plus 4 per cent., that all that is happening is a widening of the gap
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  and that the differentials are not narrowing? Does he not consider that these people, who do a useful job of work in the hospitals, deserve more than £18 a week, and deserve some sympathy from the Government?
  Sir K. Joseph: According to my figures, 0·3 per cent. of men are on earnings of £18 a week or under. The offer will increase their pay to £20 a week. That applies to the bulk of the men—in fact, all the men. The average earnings are just under £28 a week for 46 hours. That gives a very different impression. The offer will raise their average earnings—that is the offer which is available this week—to £30 a week for men and just under £23 a week for women.
  Mr. Redmond: Has my right hon. Friend any information to show how successful in marketing are the companies who are making disposable bed-sheets? If the companies are successful during this strike, what will it mean in redundancy for hospital ancillary workers?
  Sir K. Joseph: I am glad to say that in most cases, although not in all, the pledge of the unions to keep the essential services maintained, which includes the laundries, is being fulfilled.
  Mr. John Mendelson: I return to the advice given by the medical consultants, which prompted the question from my right hon. Friend the Member for Deptford (Mr. John Silkin). Is it not clear that it is the Government's rigid attitude against the use of any other type of inquiry or any of the traditional conciliation machinery, and their rigid opposition to the proposals of the medical consultants, who know the position as well as if not better than the right hon. Gentleman, which is responsible for the dangerous industrial situation as it is developing?
  Further, does he agree that the advantage sometimes of other inquiries is that they leave room for manoeuvre? However, if he sets down what the result of the inquiry must be in advance, people can have no confidence in his administration.
  Sir K. Joseph: The British Medical Association's proposal was to have an inquiry whether through the Pay Board

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  or by some other means. The Pay Board is available and I hope that the unions will apply to it for consideration of their case.

BSA LIMITED
Mr. Hattersley(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry what discussions his Department has had with BSA Ltd. about the future of the company and if he will make a statement on the prospects of that company.
The Minister for Industrial Development (Mr. Christopher Chataway): I am having discussions not only with BSA but with Manganese Bronze, whose subsidiary, Norton Villiers, is the second largest British motor cycle manufacturer. Manganese Bronze has expressed an interest in taking over all or part of BSA and has put certain proposals to the Government. I will keep the House informed of the outcome of these further discussions.
Mr. Hattersley: Does the right hon. Gentleman recall that 18 months ago 3,000 men employed by this company were tragically made redundant? We were told that their redundancy was a sacrifice which was necessary to make the company viable in future. In the light of that, I have three specific questions.
First, if the future employment of the present 6,000 BSA employees is dependent upon a temporary Government loan or a financial measure of some sort, can we be assured that it will be forthcoming?
Secondly, is it not about time that the entire British motor cycle industry was rationalised, with Government backing and support, into a single company which could provide some sort of security and stability for the employees of the new company?
Thirdly, notwithstanding what happened on the Stock Market yesterday, will the right hon. Gentleman make it clear that there is an international demand for the products of BSA and that prospective purchasers both at home and abroad can go on buying BSA in the certainty that their products will continue in being?
Mr. Chataway: I made clear some time ago to BSA that the Government were not
1484
able to accede to the request for support which BSA made. So far as the right hon. Gentleman's second and third questions are concerned, it is a belief that there should be one motor cycle company which has inspired the interest of Manganese Bronze. It is true that there are substantial exports by both companies.
Mr. Terry Davis: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us when BSA approached the Government for support, when he gave the answer and when the Government received the proposals from Manganese Bronze? When will the Government make up their minds about this proposal?
Mr. Chattway: BSA first approached the Government towards the end of last year and was given an answer to its proposal at the end of the year. I understand that the proposal from Manganese Bronze was formulated in about the middle of February. We shall reach a decision on the matters which concern us as soon as possible.
Mr. Raison: What indications has my right hon. Friend about the future prospects of BSA production specifically?
Mr. Chataway: My Department has been involved for some months in a thorough study, in which outside consultants have taken part, of the British motor cycle industry and the prospects in world markets. Over 90 per cent. of the output of both companies is now exported, and there is the prospect of very considerable export expansion, since there is a rapidly expanding market, particularly in the United States.
Mr. Leslie Huckfield: Will the right hon. Gentleman acknowledge the co-operation of the trade unions in trying to keep this company going, particularly at Triumph Motor Cycles, where many of my constituents work? Will he also accept that the workers in this factory are not given much confidence by the kind of Stock Exchange juggling and bad management they have witnessed recently? If public money is to be put into the new corporation, should there not be an element of public ownership so that at least this House and the workers can have a say in the rationalisation of the industry and we could get a really secure and confident future for them?
Mr. Chataway: I do not believe that the answer to the company's problems lies in nationalisation. I certainly accept what the hon. Gentleman said about the substantial part that has been played by the trade unions in the attempts made over recent years to pull BSA out of the very substantial difficulties in which it was in the late 1960s.
Mr. Stainton: Has my right hon. Friend, through his inquiries of BSA, been able to ascertain whether the problems arose particularly under the heading of management, of finance, or of marketing and design?
Mr. Chataway: I think that there have been and still are problems in all three areas.
Mr. Milan: In view of what the right hon. Gentleman said about the cooperation of the trade unions, is it one of the major aims of the Government to maintain the employment of the 6,000 men involved at BSA at the moment? Secondly, since the announcement today was the first we heard that the Government had turned down BSA's request for assistance under the Industry Act, it appears on the face of it that the decision was leaked and that there was insider dealing on the Stock Exchange yesterday, regardless of the consequences for the survival of this firm and the employment of the several thousand men involved. Is the right hon. Gentleman going to look into that aspect as well?
Mr. Chataway: As I made clear, the answer to BSA was given a long time ago—towards the end of last year. If there were any leak of information to people on the Stock Exchange, that would be a matter for inquiries by the authorities of the Stock Exchange. The objective of any new company, if such does emerge, or of any takeover obviously must be to make the British motor cycle industry competitive in an expanding world market, and it would be wrong for me to offer any guarantee that current employment levels could be maintained.
Mr. Biffen: Is my right hon. Friend aware that if Manganese Bronze has concluded that there is a profitable potential in the export of motor cycles to North America, I—and I suspect that I am not alone—would rather that it backed that commercial judgment with its own money than treated our constituents as captive shareholders?
Mr. Chataway: Manganese Bronze has already shown considerable capacity in the North American market. The proposals it has discussed with me involve a very substantial investment by Manganese Bronze in an expanded company. It would be deeply committed.
Mr. Roy Jenkins: Can the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether, bearing in mind his statement that there is a considerable and expanding export market for the products of this company, the Government recognise an obligation to see that we do not lose our capacity to share in that market?
Mr. Chataway: Certainly the Government have a strong interest in ensuring just that. In the North American market in the 1960s, there was a strong national marketing effort by Japan, which captured a very large share of the market. Manganese Bronze has shown a capacity for expanding its share over recent years.
Mr. Cormaek: Does my right hon. Friend know the degree of Japanese Government involvement in Japan's success in the American market?
Mr. Chataway: As my hon. Friend knows, there is certainly a very close relationship between Government and industry in Japan.
Mr. Hattersley: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I rise to ask your advice on what I believe to be a genuine point of order. I understand your reluctance to take a Private Notice Question and a submission under Standing Order No. 9 on the same occasion on the same day, but we are presented with an unusual situation.
We have discovered this afternoon for the first time that Government money is not available to BSA, and it would seem superficially that we are presented with a classic Standing Order No. 9 situation in which there is the urgency of the prospect that 6,000 men may become unemployed in a situation related to Government policy, which today we have heard for the first time. Are you prepared to consider a submission under Standing Order No. 9?
Mr. Speaker: Yes. I do not think that I can stop the right hon. Gentleman from making a submission under Standing Order No. 9 at the proper time.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Harold Wilson: May I ask the Leader of the House whether he will state the business of the House for next week?
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. James Prior): The business for next week will be as follows: —
MONDAY 19TH MARCH—Conclusion of the Debate on the Statement on the Defence Estimates.
Motions on the Representation of the People, Parliamentary Constituencies Orders, on the Calf Subsidies (Variation) Scheme and the Fatstock (Guarantee Payments) Order.
Motion relating to the Agricultural Policy (Termination of Guarantee Payments) (Fat Cattle and Rye) Order.
TUESDAY 20TH MARCH—Supply (12th allotted day). The Question will be put immediately on all outstanding Votes.
There will be debates on Rates until about Seven o'clock, and afterwards on the London Motor Box. Both will arise on Opposition motions.
Motions on the Value Added Tax Orders.
WEDNESDAY 21ST MARCH—Supply (13th allotted day). There will be a debate on the Navy which will arise on a motion for the Adjournment of the House.
THURSDAY 22ND MARCH—Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund (No.3) Bill.
FRIDAY 23RD MARCH—Private Members' motions.
MONDAY 26TH MARCH—Remaining stages of the Consolidated Fund (No. 3) Bill.
Second Reading of the National Health Service Reorganisation Bill (Lords), which will be concluded on Tuesday, 27th March.
Mr. Wilson: When does the right hon. Gentleman intend to arrange a debate on the recent White Paper on broadcasting, not only on the question raised today at Question Time but on the whole, much
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wider issues as well? Secondly, can he undertake to arrange an early debate in Government time on his statement earlier this week on how the House is expected to handle business in the context of the European Economic Community?
Mr. Prior: On the first question which the right hon. Gentleman asks, I accept that there is wide interest in this matter. I cannot promise a debate in the weeks immediately ahead but there are days for discussion of reports of Select Committees. It would probably be the wish of the House that we should have a debate on this important subject, and perhaps we can use one of those dates for it. On the second question the right hon. Gentleman raised, I would like to apologise to the House for thinking that the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Foot) was talking on the first recommendation of the Select Committee on European Community Secondary Legislation when in fact he was talking on the second. I recognise that there is great interest in the House on the subject. I am very pushed for time in the House at the moment but I fully accept that the House will wish to have a debate on this subject.
Mr. du Cann: Will my right hon. Friend be good enough next week to pay particular attention to a matter which, as he will know, is causing some concern now to his hon. and right hon. Friends and, I believe, to the House as a whole? Will he be kind enough, Mr. Speaker, to give you every assistance, through the usual channels, or whatever may be the proper and most appropriate method, to ensure that we get established and operating at the earliest possible moment the Speaker's Conference on Reform of Electoral Law?
Mr. Prior: In answer to my right hon. Friend, I understand that it is your intention, Mr. Speaker, to make a statement tomorrow.
Mr. Wellbeloved: Can the Leader of the House confirm that the Government, having denied justice to the hospital ancillary workers, are now contemplating taking a six weeks extra Summer Recess in this Session of Parliament in order that the Prime Minister may enjoy the sunshine and spend some of his £6 per week tax gift?
Mr. Prior: I hope some of the hon. Gentlemen's neighbours from neighbouring constituencies will give him the right answer to that question.
Sir D. Renton: As we are to have the Second Reading of the National Health Service Reorganisation Bill starting on Monday week, and as my right hon. Friend has promised that we shall have the Report of the Population Panel well before then, will he say when he proposes to let us have it?
Mr. Prior: I cannot be absolutely certain of the day next week when it will be published because there are certain printing problems at the moment, but it certainly will be next week.
Mr. Stoddart: May I draw the right hon. Gentleman's attention to Early Day Motion No. 236 which has been signed by 106 hon. Members and expresses disgust at the low wages paid by British firms in South Africa to African workers? May I ask him whether he agrees that this is an appalling situation? Does he also agree that this issue has pricked the conscience of the British nation? Since I believe—and I am sure he does, also—that this House should be the expression of that conscience, would he therefore agree to provide time for an early debate on the subject?
[That this House notes with disgust the low wages paid by British firms in South Africa to their African employees and, whilst disapproving any investment which helps to underpin an apartheid regime, believes that the minimum target of directors and shareholders of these companies should be the payment to these workers of wages which will enable them to lead decent and dignified lives.]
Mr. Prior: I cannot promise early time for a debate but I will, of course, see that my right hon. Friend has his attention drawn to the Motion.
Dame Irene Ward: May I ask my right hon. Friend whether he is aware that Ranger Trawlers, based on North Shields, is reported to have been sold to British Trawler United Companies in Hull and that the trawlers are to be transferred from North Shields to Hull, which would of course be disastrous to the port of North Shields? I have put down a Question to the appropriate
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Ministry, that is the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, for Monday. May I ask my right hon. Friend, who is also interested in fishing, whether he would kindly ask my right hon. Friend whether he will be in the House on Monday to answer the Question, because of the anxiety which is being caused in North Shields by this reported sale of Ranger Trawlers, since it is very important and could be disastrous to many in my part of the world?
Mr. Prior: I will certainly look at the point raised by my hon. Friend. This is all news to me, but I will certainly report it to my right hon. Friend, the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and see whether he can give my hon. Friend an answer on Monday.
Mr. Wilson: May I ask another question on which obviously one must weigh one's words very carefully? It is expected that in the near future—and I am not going to ask the right hon. Gentleman when and I hope he will not tell the House when—there may be a White Paper on Northern Ireland. Would he do his best to ensure that no prior information is given about that in relation to the timing or the dating, for obvious reasons, here and in Northern Ireland?
Second, would he consider that, contrary to the usual practice—a request which one dislikes making—there should be no prior dissemination of the text of that statement until it is made public, and that it should be treated, in fact, like a Budget Statement? Would he take it from this side of the House that we are very anxious that there should be no instant comment—we intend to make none—and that it would be very harmful here and in Northern Ireland if there were too rapid a response to what is going to be a very important White Paper, whatever we may ultimately think of what is in it?
Will he do his best—although I know he has no power in the matter—to ensure that all these requirements are met, so that everyone in Northern Ireland has plenty of time to consider the matter and that no one takes a premature position, making it harder not only to maintain peace there but to secure an outcome to the White Paper based on reconciliation?
Mr. Prior: I am grateful for what the right hon. Gentleman has said. I am sure his views express the wishes of the whole

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House and I will see that my right hon. Friend is made well aware of them. I am certain that it would be in the interests of the whole House if no instant reaction were made to the White Paper, whenever it is announced. I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for what he said.
Mr. Kilfedder: Following what the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition said, with which I agree completely, could my right hon. Friend in some way appeal—or appeal through his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister—to the news media not to ask politicians or indeed any non-elected people to make an instant response on the White Paper for a period of, say, 12 hours?
Mr. Prior: I believe that what my hon. Friend and the right hon. Gentleman have said will be noted by the Press and by all media of communication who will want to share in what has been said in this House this afternoon.
Mr. Wilson: It is a fact that some of us have already been asked for instant comments on the media. We all understand their position but this is not just a matter of news value but a matter in which people's lives and an ultimate solution matter much more. I put to the right hon. Gentleman the question—and if he cannot answer it I will understand but perhaps he will consider it and take it to heart—that there should also be no final revised version at all of this issued to the Press, because, while everyone trusts the integrity of the Press in these matters, we cannot take any risks whatsoever in this situation.
Mr. Prior: I cannot answer the last part of the question without notice but I have noted the points the right hon. Gentleman makes, and on grounds of security they are very sensible.
Mr. Russell Kerr: Has the attention of the Leader of the House been drawn to Early Day Motion No. 238, signed by some 70 hon. Members, in which his colleague and right hon. Friend, the Minister for Posts and Telecommunications, is heavily criticised for his failure to pay attention to the unanimous report of a Select Committee of this House in regard to the extension of the franchise of the IBA and for that matter of the BBC, and will he use his best endeavours
1492
to make his right hon. Friend see a little sense in this matter?
Mr. Prior: I certainly think this a subject which the House will wish to debate and I have given the hon. Gentleman's right hon. Friend an assurance about that this afternoon. I cannot promise a debate very quickly.
[That this House, mindful of the unanimous Report of the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries recommending that a thoroughgoing public inquiry be instituted before tile extension of the Independent Broadcasting Authority's Charter beyond 1976, deeply regrets the action of the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications in rejecting this recommendation; further, expresses its condemnation of the Minister's action in giving his reply to the Select Committee's Report in the course of an answer to a routine question by a honourable Member, rather than by the more normal method of a statement to the House; and finally, calls upon the Government to arrange an immediate debate and to take no action in this matter until Parliament has reached a decision.]
Mr. Adley: Has my right hon. Friend noticed that on the Order Paper every day now for more than a week there has been a Motion for an Instruction in my name to the Select Committee on the Hybrid Bill at present studying Maplin Airport? Would my right hon. Friend accept that the object of the Government in setting up the Hybrid Bill procedure was to allow objections to be heard? Is he aware that Members serving on this Select Committee are anxious to discuss the Instruction on the Order Paper? Is he further aware that it is within his power to instruct the House to accept this Instruction and may I ask his assistance in doing so?
Mr. Prior: I am aware of the notice put on the Order Paper by my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Adley). Equally, he will be aware that I have already had some discussions with him on the subject. The House has already debated this matter on Second Reading. It is now before a Select Committee. It will come back to this House for other stages. I do not think that the Select Committee needs any further instructions than those it has already.
Mr. Blenkinsop: Will the Leader of the House ensure that a statement is made in the House next week and that if possible we have a debate on regional economic policy related specifically to the problem of regional employment premium, in view of the important statement by the CBI and the change of view whereby apparently there is now unanimity that regional employment premium should be continued and the widespread concern in the North-East and elsewhere about it?
Mr. Prior: I cannot promise early time for a debate on this subject, but the hon. Gentleman will have heard the views expressed by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister earlier in the week.
Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Did I understand my right hon. Friend to say that we should not be discussing the Lords amendments to the Counter-Inflation Bill next week? In any event, before we discuss those amendments, will my right hon. Friend ensure that ample copies of the relevant editions of House of Lords HANSARD are available to this House if the printing strike continues? Is my right hon. Friend aware that at present it is impossible to obtain copies?
Mr. Prior: My hon. Friend did not hear me say anything about the Lords amendments. It would be wrong for me to make any statement about Lords amendments before the Lords have completed their discussions on the Bill. But, if necessary, there will be an opportunity to make a further statement about the matter.
As for my hon. Friend's second point, we shall do our best to see that there are copies of the editions of the Lords HANSARD available. Unfortunately we have some industrial trouble at the moment. But I shall see what can be done.
Mr. Shore: I welcome what the Leader of the House said earlier about arranging a debate on the Interim Report of the Select Committee on European Community Secondary Legislation in the reasonably near future. May I press the urgency of the matter, especially in view of the fact that during the past week, when the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has been busy dismantling the whole of our post-war
1494
system of deficiency payments for agriculture, it has become necessary to have a statement from the right hon. Gentleman when he returns from Brussels? Will the Leader of the House arrange for this next week?
Mr. Prior: The Opposition are taking advantage of opportunities to discuss the problem this coming Monday evening. As for a debate on the First Report from the Select Committee. I cannot promise that very shortly, as I think the right hon. Gentleman knows.
Sir Robin Turton: As there is to be a debate on Monday on the removal of beef from the deficiency payments system, surely it is important that the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food should make his belated statement of the February Price Review before that debate takes place.
Mr. Prior: I am not certain that I agree that it has any direct relevance. But my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food should be making a statement next Wednesday. He will also be publishing a White Paper on that day, though that will not itself deal with what are known as the "determinations".
Mr. Taverne: When will the Leader of the House announce, perhaps in conjunction with his opposite numbers, a review of the system for moving Writs in by-elections by which not everyone on the Opposition side of the House is bound by the convention whereby the party which last held a seat can delay the moving of the Writ, not according to the interests of the constituency but according to the electoral advantage of the party, however misguided?
Mr. Prior: I should like to consider what the hon. and learned Gentleman said. All I can say now is that a delay in moving a certain by-election Writ did not seem to do him any harm.
Mr. John Wells: Will my right hon. Friend say when the whole House, in Government time, will have an opportunity to debate the new parliamentary building with a view to coming to an adverse decision?
Mr. Prior: Certainly it is not for me to say what decision this House will reach. But I recognise fully the need for a debate in Government time, and I

1495
intend to arrange it as soon as possible because I think that the House should take a decision on this important issue.
Mr. Marks: May I draw the attention of the Leader of the House to Early Day Motion No. 226 in the name of the hon. Member for Norfolk, South (Mr. John E. B. Hill) and 78 other Conservative Members? It asks my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition to relieve my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Sparkbrook (Mr. Hattersley) of his post as Shadow spokesman on the grounds that he gave inaccurate information to the House on education expansion, whereas it is now shown by the Press and in answers to parliamentary Questions that my hon. Friend was accurate in what he said and that the Secretary of State was inaccurate. Will the Leader of the House ask his hon. Friends to withdraw their motion, or give time for it to be debated, or ask the Prime Minister to dismiss the Secretary of State for Education and Science when she returns from South Africa?
[That this House congratulates the Secretary of State for Education and Science on her White Paper on Education and her Under-Secretary's accurate presentation of its proposals to the House, regrets that the Labour spokesman on education, the hon. Member for Spark brook, misled the House during the debate on the Government White Paper on Education on 19th February by giving inaccurate information on statistics on at least three separate occasions; treats as ludicrous the accusation that the Times Educational Supplement is under the control of the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State; and, in default of an early correction from the hon. Member for Sparkbrook for his errors and an apology to the House, calls upon the Leader of the Opposition to relieve the hon. Member of his post as shadow spokesman on education and find a substitute who will treat the subject seriously.]
Mr. Prior: I am afraid that I cannot find further opportunities for debate. We have had two recent debates on education. I should have thought that the Opposition had taken enough of a bashing from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State not to wish for another.
Several Hon. Members Several Hon. Members rose—
Mr. Speaker: Order. We must move on. Point of order, Mr. Cunningham.

EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT (MINISTERS' SPEECHES)
Mr. George Cunningham: May I raise with you, Mr. Speaker, a point of order of some significance in relation to the admissibility of a certain type of Question to the Prime Minister, and ask you to give a ruling upon it upon another day?
My point of order arises from reports in The Times and other newspapers today of the speech by the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster yesterday to the European Parliament. It is reliably reported that the right hon. Gentleman admitted publicly that he had amended his speech in order to take account of the views of other members of the Council of Ministers of the European Community.
There is a rule of this House, as you will be aware, that Members are not allowed to ask the Prime Minister whether a speech made abroad by a Minister represents the policy of Her Majesty's Government because it is presumed—and until now it has been a fair presumption—that when a Minister speaks abroad he speaks the policy of Her Majesty's Government. It is plain that yesterday the Chancellor of the Duchy was not doing so and that it is highly likely that in future we shall not know whether a Minister speaking in Brussels especially is expressing the view of Her Majesty's Government or that of the Council of Ministers, whether he is speaking on behalf of Her Majesty's Government or that of the Council of Ministers.
In this new situation, ought not the rule to be changed so that it becomes possible to ask the Prime Minister whether a Minister speaking in a European context abroad is speaking on behalf of Her Majesty's Government or on behalf of the Council of Ministers?
Mr. Robert Hughes: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. May I ask you to consider another point at the same time? I understand that the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster can be questioned only about his specific responsibilities as Chancellor of the Duchy and that Members cannot put down Questions

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about his responsibilities in the European Parliament or in the EEC. It seems that we are debarred from raising with the right hon. Gentleman points such as those referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, South-West (Mr. George Cunningham).
Mr. Maclennan: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. In giving consideration to these matters, will you bear in mind the possibility that occasionally, albeit perhaps infrequently, Her Majesty's Ministers may, in expressing their own policy views, be expressing the views of other Ministers in the EEC?
Mr. Speaker: I shall consider these interesting points and give what guidance OT ruling I can.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (NO. 3) BILL
Mr. Speaker: There are two Standing Order No. 9 applications. However the time for statements is customarily before such matters are considered, and I propose to make a statement myself about the Consolidated Fund (No. 3) Bill.
For the debate on Thursday, 22nd March on the Second Reading of the Consolidated Fund (No. 3) Bill, hon. Members may hand into my office by 9.30 in the morning of Wednesday, 21st March their names and the topics which they wish to raise. The ballot will be carried out as on the last occasion. An hon. Member may hand in only his own name and one topic.
The Consolidated Fund (No. 3) Bill includes the Defence Vote on Account for the Financial Year 1973–74, House of Commons Paper No. 113; certain Civil Supplementary Estimates for the current year set out in House of Commons Papers Nos. 78 and 166; certain Defence Supplementary Estimates for the current year contained in House of Commons Papers Nos. 77 and 165; and certain Civil and Defence Excesses for 1971–72, contained in House of Commons Paper No. 183. It will be in order on the Second Reading of the Bill to raise topics falling within the ambit of the expenditure proposed in these papers.
I shall put out the result of the ballot later on Wednesday, 21st March.

QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
Mr. Gerald Kaufman: On a point of order. You will recall, Mr. Speaker, that I gave notice that I would raise a point of order about certain agricultural Questions at the beginning of this afternoon. You will recall that on 18th December the House agreed, on a motion of the Leader of the House, with the conclusion expressed in paragraph 36 of the report of the Select Committee on Questions, with regard to planted Questions from Ministers. This afternoon, on agricultural Questions, a number of hon. Gentlemen opposite put Questions to the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food related to food prices and certain wage increases among certain sections of the community and, as if by magic, the Minister, in his brief, had the precise statistics relating to the wages and incomes of the people concerned—coal miners, motor workers, old-age pensioners, and others.
On the other hand, when my hon. Friend the Member for Renfrew, West (Mr. Buchan) asked a Question relating to agricultural workers' pay, the magic disappeared and the Minister of State required notice with regard to the statistics.
Can you therefore say, Mr. Speaker, whether the arrangement between the Minister of Agriculture and his colleagues on the back benches which led to this co-ordination of Question and answer violates the House's decision of 18th December to endorse paragraph 36 of the Select Committee report?
Mr. Speaker: I do not think anything that happened was out of order. However, I will consider what the hon. Member said and will study the report of the Questions and answers, and if necessary rule on the matter.

HOSPITAL ANCILLARY STAFF (DISPUTE)
Mr. John Silkin: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration; namely,
"the demand of the BMA for a full inquiry into the pay and structure of the ancillary

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hospital staff, and the concurrence of the National Union of Public Employees in that demand".
The matter is clearly specific. The demand of the BMA and the concurrence with the National Union of Public Employees in such an inquiry could not be more specific. It is important since it concerns the running of the hospital services of this country, and it is clearly a matter for urgent consideration because unless the present unhappy dispute is resolved, and resolved quickly, the hospital services of this country are likely to come to a grinding halt.
Mr. Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman was kind enough to give me notice that he would make this application. I must tell the House that I find the exercise of this discretion of mine exceedingly troublesome because there are many important matters that need debating. I have another application under the same Standing Order later today, and they arise almost all the time.
What I have to decide, because it is very important that the House should conduct its business according to a fixed programme known beforehand, is whether I should disrupt the programme already fixed and announced, and on which questions have been asked, and allow what is called an emergency debate. I am very sorry, but I cannot grant this application.

BSA LIMITED
Mr. Hattersley: I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration: namely,
"the problem of interim Government assistance for BSA".
I make this application, briefly, under three headings. The urgency of the matter can hardly be disputed and was reflected on the Stock Exchange yesterday. There are 6,000 homes in which the BSA worker is the breadwinner, and the relationship between the problem and the Government is very clear in that continuation of their employment may be dependent upon a Government interim financial grant. Thirdly, there is the immediacy of the necessity to provide it.
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My failure to give notice, for which I deeply apologise, arises from the fact that it was only on a supplementary question to the Minister this afternoon that we discovered that, by some criteria which he did not specify, BSA as at present constituted does not qualify for a Government grant.
For these three reasons I make my application.
Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman told me he would make this application and I think he has put the point to the House very clearly. I have sympathy with him, but what I said in answer to the last application applies again here. The same report of the Committee on Procedure which dealt with the discretion of the Chair with regard to Standing Order No. 9 also I think prescribed a procedure whereby half Supply Days for such debates could be taken at short notice. There are ways for these matters to be pursued otherwise than by disrupting the announced business of the House. I am afraid I must reject the application.
Mr. Michael Foot: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. While not questioning your ruling in any sense whatever, of course, is it not the case that the reform, as many of us hoped it was, of the procedure under Standing Order No. 9 was specifically recommended by the Committee on Procedure in order that there should be more frequent opportunities for this Standing Order to be invoked? When that recommendation was made it was understood that the procedure of the House of Commons already announced would have to be disrupted in such cases.
Therefore, I do not know whether you would care to give us any indication now, but surely the ruling on these two cases, which many of us would have thought would have been precisely those that the Committee on Procedure would have had in mind, means that that committee or the House must look at the whole matter again and make fresh recommendations to you.
Mr. Speaker: I would welcome that, particularly as I was a member of the Select Committee on Procedure and this discretion—and I think my colleagues at the time will support my recollection—was to some extent my own idea. I have subsequently regretted it because it puts a great burden upon the Chair.

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I would certainly like further guidance. I am forbidden to give reasons. Therefore what I say must not be regarded as having particular application to these cases today, but supposing an emergency debate on one matter is allowed, and there are 20 other similar ones to be considered, how does one distinguish? I think the procedure was meant for special emergencies, but I will consider the matter and I would welcome any further help from the Select Committee on Procedure.
Mr. Foot: Would you be good enough to place in the Library a list of all the other decisions you would wish to reconsider, because it might be helpful to us in the future?
Mr. Speaker: The House would do nothing but have debates under Standing Order No. 9.
Mr. Faulds: Surely consideration of disruption of the House's business is totally irrelevant in matters of this sort.
Mr. Speaker: That is a question of opinion.
Mr. John Mendelson: On a point of order. While not joining in the expression of opinion that my hon. Friend the Member for Smethwick (Mr. Faulds) has lust given, I think it was always understood, particularly among those hon. Members who were here before this last Committee on Procedure made recommendations, that it was left entirely in the hands of Mr. Speaker but that the change in the rules widened his capacity for making his decision without at any time having to indicate to the House, when two or three applications were before him, why he chose one rather than the other. That was the protection we all sought to give to Mr. Speaker, but we did that so that there would be much more opportunity of its being used—so we all hoped at the time—so that matters
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which obviously could not wait—in the determination of Mr. Speaker, divining the judgment of the House and taking all other circumstances into consideration—could be debated. Surely it would be a poor result of the change of rule if that were not given a little more free run.
Mr. Speaker: I think there is great force in what the hon. Gentleman said. Another discretion which I find it very difficult to exercise concerns the allowing of Private Notice Questions. I allowed Private Notice Questions on these two matters today, and I allowed a certain amount of time for them to be discussed. However, I am grateful for the help which hon. and right hon. Members are seeking to give me.
Mr. Atkinson: Further to that point of order. The House can readily understand the increased difficulties suffered by you, Mr. Speaker, and no doubt they are going to get very much worse because the period between deciding the week's business and conducting it is now growing longer and some of us get to know what the week's business is two or three weeks before it actually takes place. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh."] I repeat that sometimes, quite by accident, we back benchers come across bits of accurate information when decisions have been taken by members of the Government Front Bench deciding business two or three weeks before it is to come on. If your suggestion, Mr. Speaker, is that we should not interrupt the business that has been determined, or that we should avoid doing so except in exceptional circumstances, then, as business is planned for periods further ahead, your difficulties will intensify.
Mr. Speaker: I will deal only with the business for the day of the application or for the following day.
I must now defend the debate on defence.

DEFENCE
4.31 p.m.
The Minister of State for Defence (Mr. Ian Gilmour): I beg to move
That this House approves the statement on the Defence Estimates, 1973, contained in Command Paper No. 5231.
Mr. Speaker: I should like to inform the House that I have selected the amendment in the name of the Leader of the Opposition and his right hon. Friends, to leave out from 'House' to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
'expresses its concern at the sharp inflationary increase in defence expenditure and, while paying tribute to the three Services and civilian personnel, particularly for their outstanding service in Northern Ireland, and maintaining that they should receive adequate remuneration, calls upon Her Majesty's Government to take urgent action within the Alliance to bring our defence spending into line with that of our European allies, and further, to seek to ensure that total West European expenditure should reflect any improvement in the security situation following the European Security Conference'.
Mr. Gilmour: The Government laid down the objectives of its defence policy in its Defence White Paper in 1970. One of them was to give the Services a period of stability, something which the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) acknowledged was necessary. But we can fairly claim to have achieved it where he failed. We have avoided those frequent, sudden and damaging changes of policy which bedevilled the later 1960s, and we have given the Services the chance to recover from the disruption and upheavals of the past.
But defence policy goes in step with foreign policy; and if, as we hope, world conditions change, and in particular if Western and Eastern Europe move into a more normal and civilised relationship, then of course our defence policy win be suitably adapted. Nobody wants to spend more on defence than he needs to, and if we get a chance to reduce our expenditure we shall take it. But history suggests that we are more likely to spend too little on defence than too much.
There are, as the House knows, a number of moderately encouraging signs, and the Government profoundly hope that what President Nixon has called the era
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of negotiation will in Europe and elsewhere eventually substitute relaxation for tension and confidence for fear.
But we have a long way to go before any such development can be said to have taken place. Early in the Vietnam war Senator Aiken of Vermont suggested that the best way to end it was for America just to say "we have won" and act accordingly. That course had its attractions for some people; but the way of achieving détente is not just to say we have got it when in fact we have not.
The Government will do everything in their power to pursue détente, and ensure peace and security at the various conferences and negotiations that take place. But the three things are indivisible. There can be no question of sacrificing security merely in the hope of achieving détente.
As the House is aware, there are some discouraging precedents of people prophesying disarmament and being proved over-optimistic. Lloyd George once told this House that he saw "distinct signs of a reaction against armaments throughout the world". But he thought he saw those signs on 23rd July 1914, a few days before the First World War began; so his vision was a little premature.
I am not suggesting, of course, that we are now in a similar situation. But without being anywhere near so spectacularly wrong as Lloyd George was in 1914, we should still be taking an enormous and unjustified risk if we were now to assume that an era of peace and good feelings had already begun.
Certainly there is no sign whatever of a reaction against armaments in the Soviet Union. Quite the reverse. We estimate that the total level of Soviet military expenditure has steadily increased by 2 per cent. or 3 per cent. per annum in real terms over the last few years. During the last year Russia has reinforced her frontier with China, but not at the expense of her forces in Europe. She has recently made major increases in her artillery, both field artillery and air defence, and there have been reports that she is increasing the number of tanks in her divisions facing NATO. This is entirely in line with her policy over many years which has consistently been to increase the quantity and quality of her equipment.

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In these circumstances, as the right hon. Member for Leeds East rightly said when he was in office,
"Piecemeal and unilateral western reductions without any compensating reductions on the other side would not improve European security or the prospects for a detente."
As the House knows, the preparatory talks in Helsinki for the European Security Conference have been making progress. The military content of these talks is quite small, but their political significance will affect the climate of other East-West negotiations currently under way. Realistic steps towards détente have always been viewed with favour by Her Majesty's Government, and we hope the conference will make progress in lowering present barriers in Europe and increasing mutual confidence.
The military content in the mutual and balanced force reductions talks is of course very large. The largest difficulty here will be in negotiating an agreement that really is balanced. First, the Warsaw Pact have an overwhelming superiority in conventional forces, so that any man-for-man reduction would only exaggerate the existing imbalance. Secondly, the Warsaw Pact is a monolithic alliance firmly under Russian control and with a high degree of commonality in its equipment and tactical doctrine. It can therefore react very rapidly to any requirement for front line reinforcement. Finally, geography favours the Warsaw Pact; troop withdrawals by the United States across the Atlantic cannot be regarded as balanced by a similar withdrawal by the Russians behind their own borders. The negotiations will therefore be complex.
Meanwhile, it would obviously be pointless even to attempt to achieve mutual balanced reductions, if before doing so we for our part indulged in large unilateral reductions. I am sure that most of the House will agree with the right hon. Member for Leeds, East about that. NATO has kept the peace in Europe for 23 years, and our fundamental policy remains to foster the Alliance and to build up the European element in it.
I have so far concentrated on the major aim of our policy—the support of NATO and the defence of Western Europe. But we believe that this country still has an
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important part to play in other parts of the world. In addition to NATO, we are members of CENTO and SEATO; and we also contribute to the Five Power defence arrangements in Malaysia and Singapore. My right hon. and noble Friend recently returned from the Far East where he had discussions with the new Governments in Kuala Lumpur and Singapore—I am sorry; with the new Governments in Canberra and Wellington, and with the Governments in Kuala Lumpur and Singapore.
All the Governments concerned reaffirmed the defence arrangements, which we agreed upon two years ago, as a useful influence for stability in the area, and agreed that they should continue. As the House knows, the Australian Government have decided not to replace their infantry battalion and artillery battery in Singapore. They will, however, retain their naval and air contributions and logistic support elements for the ANZUK brigade.
Mr. Tam Dalyell: At what level are the Australians to maintain a naval and air presence? Have they said in what numbers they will remain?
Mr. Gilmour: I do not think that they have given exact figures, but basically they will retain it.
Mr. Dalyell: It is only a token force.
Mr. Gilmour: Certainly not. I do not know why the hon. Gentleman has this prejudice against this force, which all the Governments in the area regard as extremely useful.
Mr. John Morris: Is that all that the hon. Gentleman will tell us about the future of the ANZUK arrangements in Singapore? Whether or not he knows that there are new Governments in Australia and New Zealand, as opposed to Singapore and Malaysia, will he confirm that the present arrangements are under the command of an Australian admiral? Is the same command structure to remain?
Mr. Gilmour: This is obviously a matter which will be discussed within the alliance. All that I have told the House is that the basic arrangements will continue. That seems a reasonable piece

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of information to give the right hon. Gentleman.
One of our aims on taking office was to help enhance the standing and the reputation of the Armed Forces. This we have done. But much the most important factor in enhancing their reputation has, of course, been the behaviour of the Army in Northern Ireland. The restraint, tact and courage shown by our soldiers have impressed the whole country. In a provocative and delicate situation, they have discharged their duties with an extraordinary combination of bravery, skill and forbearance. Their conduct and morale deserve the highest praise, and they rightly receive it. Perhaps the best example of their skill was provided by Operation Motorman, which was carried through with speed and complete efficiency.
There have been the familiar claims that the Army has been guilty of harsh repression. The wildest allegations of brutal behaviour continue to be put about, often by people who should have known much better. But perhaps the House will have noticed a note of rising desperation lately in that sort of propaganda—not surprisingly, as the complete impartiality and good faith of the Army have been plain to all but the most bigoted and twisted.
Since the beginning of the year, the Army has continued to make progress. In January and February the security forces seized from extremists in both parts of the community 196 firearms, over 14,000 rounds of ammunition and about one and a half tons of explosives. The number of people arrested and charged totalled 249.
Of course, the situation is very far from satisfactory, but through their courageous and diligent work the security forces have brought some welcome relief to the people of Northern Ireland. In undertaking a vital task it is tragic that casualties should have continued. So far this year, 14 Regulars and three members of the Ulster Defence Regiment have been killed by terrorist action.
The House has been concerned for some time about provisions for death or injuries attributable to service particularly in the Northern Ireland context. I hope that we shall be able to make a statement shortly about improved provisions which
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will apply to all regular servicemen who are in the forces on or after 31st March 1973. These arrangements cannot, however, apply retrospectively; so we have decided to introduce a special scheme of ex-gratia annual payments to supplement existing benefits for regular Service men who have been invalided out and for the families of those who have been killed as a result of terrorist activity in Northern Ireland between 1st August 1969 and the end of March this year.
This scheme will also apply to the Ulster Defence Regiment. My hon. Friends will expand on it later in the debate. I shall now merely quote two examples. A widow with two children will receive up to £500 a year more than she now receives as a war widow's pension; and a completely disabled man will receive up to £400 a year more than he at present gets as a disability pension.
Mr. Churchill: What my hon. Friend has just said will be greatly welcomed on both sides of the House, but will he give consideration to special remuneration for those very brave men who risk their lives in the bomb disposal squads but get nothing extra for what is basically wartime work?
Mr. Gilmour: I entirely agree with what my hon. Friend says about the bomb disposal men. Their courage is unrivalled. On the other hand, a great many other people in Northern Ireland are also doing jobs under near wartime conditions, so I cannot hold out any hope of our making the change for which my hon. Friend asks. But the matter will certainly be looked at.
The Royal Navy continues to play its part as the leading European Navy. Our Polaris submarines provide Europe's only contribution to NATO's strategic nuclear force. They also contribute vitally to national security by providing us with an independent strategic nuclear weapons system in situations where supreme national interests are at stake. We, therefore, keep a close running check on the whole complex of technological, intelligence, financial and political issues—none of which is static. I can assure the House that our nuclear force confronts a potential aggressor with the certainty of unacceptable retaliation, and that we shall do whatever is necessary to ensure its continued effectiveness.

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Our amphibious force of commando carriers and assault and logistic ships is a force unique among European powers to reinforce the flanks of NATO. The "Ark Royal" and her Phantom and Buccaneer aircraft will make a significant contribution to NATO's naval strength for some years to come.
Two years ago the right hon. Member for Leeds, East—to whom I gave notice—said this:
"The Government have not the slightest intention of continuing the 'Ark Royal' beyond the middle of 1973 They are continuing till then simply as an obeisance to some of their backbench supporters."—[OFFICAL REPORT, 19th November 1970; Vol. 806, c. 1557.]
As the House will have suspected, the right hon. Gentleman was quite wrong then and he is still quite wrong now.
Naturally enough, there has been a certain amount of public interest in maritime V/STOL. The Harrier is the only military aircraft of its type in operational service. The British Government firmly intend to exploit the full potential of this advanced technology, and we foresee an important rôle for a V/STOL aircraft embarked on a through-deck cruiser.
The present Harrier is essentially a day ground-attack and land-based aircraft. For the maritime rôle we require a multi-rôle aircraft, capable of attack, reconnaissance and all-weather air defence operations. Project definition studies to establish the technical feasibility of making the current aircraft suitable for maritime employment and to assess the cost effectiveness of the best solution against the threat at the time are now well advanced. The problem is complex and some redesign work would inevitably be required. If the results of the project definition studies show that we should be able to produce a suitable maritime V/STOL aircraft which meets the requirement, our intention is to adopt it.
Mr. John Wilkinson: In the interim pending the potential development of V/STOL for use at sea in the late 1970s and early 1980s, will my hon. Friend consider embarking an aircraft of the Harrier type AV8A for employment in the close support rôle, perhaps from "Hermes", as this would give the crews valuable experience on the type?
Mr. Gilmour: We are always prepared to consider anything. But I rather doubt whether that particular suggestion is suitable. However, we shall certainly consider it.
Mr. Patrick Wall: My hon. Friend started his speech by talking about the talks on mutual and balanced force reductions. He will be aware that those do not include maritime power and that the greatest growth in the Soviet forces is in naval strength. How do we intend to protect our vital oil convoys from the Middle East round the Cape at the present level of strength of the Royal Navy, and what plans do the Government have for protecting these convoys which are vital in time of war or tension?
Mr. Gilmour: My hon. Friend is quite right in saying that the talks do not affect naval forces, but I should be deceiving him if I said that I had any new plans to announce today about how to protect our merchant shipping. But the House will have seen in the White Paper that our navy—which is only one of the NATO navies—is an impressive and competent force.
In the Royal Air Force, the strength of the Harrier force has reached its planned level, but the aircraft is being progressively re-equipped with more powerful marks of the Pegasus engine. Further Harriers are to be acquired in order to maintain the front line strength for a longer period into the 1980s.
The RAF is taking its first deliveries of the Anglo-French Jaguar aircraft in the strike-attack and reconnaissance rôles. The build-up of squadrons equipped with Anglo-French Puma helicopters is complete. On the weapons side deliveries will start during the coming year of the Anglo-French Martel air-to-surface missile.
Looking further ahead, we have additional Nimrods and additional Buccaneers on order. But the most challenging project is the multi rôle combat aircraft, which is being developed jointly by the Federal Republic of Germany, Italy and the United Kingdom. Work is proceeding satisfactorily, and a further milestone has just been reached. The detailed review of the performance, timing, and cost aspects of the project, which the three participating nations initiated in November of last year, has now been

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completed. The results are judged to be satisfactory, and I can announce that the three Governments have decided to continue with the joint development of the project. They have also authorised preparatory work for production. The next review of the programme is scheduled to begin at the end of this year.
Because of time, I have not been able to dwell upon the activities and achievements of the Services, but my hon. Friends will be able to go into more detail and soon we shall be having the single-Service debates.
Mr. John Morris: Since the hon. Gentleman has dealt with the MRCA and as we have not had a statement on this for a long time, can he tell us what production is envisaged?
Mr. Gilmour: No. We are not making any announcement about numbers at this time.
Mr. Robert Maclennan: As the hon. Gentleman seems to be indicating that he does not intend to continue for much longer, may I make one point? He has made, without question, the most uninformative speech to which this House has ever listened during a defence debate, certainly during my time in the House. This is a matter of major importance, and the kind of information he has put forward is either contained in the White Paper or is of a kind that could be considered on the Estimates debates next week. Is it not treating this House with absolute contempt and fulfilling the criticism many of us have made, that, because the Secretary of State is not in this House, we are denied any contribution on the Government's strategic and disarmament thinking, and on defence objectives generally? This is a travesty of a debate.
Mr. Gilmour: I can only assume that the hon. Gentleman decided to make his speech before going off to catch his train. I am only about half way through my speech, I regret to tell him. I will be looking at the Opposition amendment in some detail.
The White Paper mentions the return to industry of Sir Derek Rayner. We owe him much, not only for his report, which led to the creation of the Procurement Executive, but also for being
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brave enough to take on the job of being its first Chief Executive, which he did so well.
The Procurement Executive while having its own coherent structure, is nevertheless an integral part of the Ministry of Defence, and this is an important element in its successful development. Its creation has improved the dialogue between the Service authorities, who must take a final view of the requirement, and those responsible for producing the equipment, who must assess the financial consequences of various options, form an opinion about the risks involved in areas of high technology, and consider export potential. The last can be of great importance in keeping overall costs down. Increasingly we shall be trying to set new requirements in the general context of the equipment programme as a whole, and to maintain a balance between those areas in which performance must be the overriding criterion and those where well-tried systems can either be given a longer lease of life or replaced at minimum cost. In all this we are of course working very closely with our allies who face precisely the same dilemma.
Defence sales are a part of the Procurement Executive. As the House may know, Labour's "Programme for Britain" says:
"a future Labour Government must make a sustained attack on the mounting stockpile of weapons of destruction which not only threaten the human race but drain the wealth of rich and poor alike. The appointment of a 'Minister of Disarmament' by the last Labour Government was a useful declaration of intent. But it is clear that the hard core of the problem, the arms race, remains untouched."
Of course it does. The Opposition mention their appointment of a Minister of Disarmament, which achieved nothing, but in their current Left-wing frenzy they entirely fail to mention their appointment of an arms salesman, which has achieved a great deal.
Defence sales last year were some £350 million, and this year they are expected to be £400 million. Our defence industries export about one-third of their production, and that represents 4 per cent. of the country's total exports. Does the Labour Party's proposed
"sustained attack on the mounting stockpile of weapons"
mean, as it appears to mean, that it would forbid the export of arms from

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this country? If it does mean that, very many people would lose their jobs, a number of companies would go bankrupt, and the balance of payments would be hit. If it does not mean that, Labour would be increasing
"the mounting stockpile of weapons"
instead of attacking it, and it is guilty of a shabby attempt to deceive its more guillible Left-wing supporters. We look forward to hearing which of these rather unpalatable alternatives right hon. Gentlemen will choose.
I turn now to the Opposition's amendment. We would all agree with the passages in it paying tribute to the three Services and civilian personnel and saying that they should be adequately paid. The amendment contains two crucial phrases. One is the phrase calling upon the Government
"to take urgent action within the alliance to bring our Defence spending into line with that of our European allies".
As it stands, that appears to mean that we should bring our defence spending into line with the Germans and the French. If so, we shall, if anything, have to increase our expenditure, as the Germans spend more on defence than we do, and the French spend not much less. So, if the amendment means what it says, we need not quarrel. I am not sure whether the Opposition Front Bench do know what the amendment means.
Perhaps it does not mean that. In that case the Opposition ought to do something about their drafting. Two years ago their amendment was scarcely literate. This year it means apparently the opposite to what they intended to say. If the amendment were meant to refer to the proportion of gross national product spent on defence, which I think is the interpretation right hon. Gentlemen opposite may favour, the House will, I think, agree that it would be churlish not to congratulate the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) on his great success. This is the line he has been plugging hard for at least four years. Until now he has had no change out of his Front Bench but now, in defence as in everything else, the Labour Shadow Cabinet has given way to its Left wing.
Mr. Frank Allaun: The Minister was kind enough to tell me that he would be making a reference to me.
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Exactly a year ago his predecessor told the House in reply to a Question that the proportion of GNP spent on defence was 5·7 per cent. while the average for the NATO countries was 4·2 per cent. If we came down to their level it would save £600 million a year. That is what not I but the Labour Party put forward in Labour's "Programme for Britain" to which the Minister referred. I am delighted that the Government are seeing sense.
Mr. Gilmour: I am sure that that is a helpful intervention for the Opposition Front Bench. I will be dealing with the hon. Gentleman's point in some detail. When he does make his speech I hope that he will tell us what is his real objective. He would surely not be content just to cut our expenditure to 4·2 per cent. of GNP. The right hon. Member for Leeds, East, when he was Defence Secretary, suggested that the hon. Gentleman and his Friends would like no defence expenditure at all.
In an article the hon. Gentleman wrote recently in the AUEW Journal he referred to
"a vital resolution passed by the Labour Party Conference".
That resolution said that the Labour Party was opposed to any British defence policy which was based on the use or threatened use of nuclear weapons either by this country or its allies and demanded the removal of all nuclear bases in this country. Such a resolution was diametrically opposed to the policy of the Labour Government yet it was accepted by the National Executive of the Labour Party of which, I understand, the Leader of the Opposition and the right hon. Member for Leeds, East are members. The hon. Member for Salford, East says that that decision must be respected by his parliamentary leaders—
Mr. Allaun: The Minister must recognise that other NATO allies, Italy and Germany, have no nuclear weapons. He must also recognise that these bases make us a sitting duck in the event of any nuclear war, even in the event of a missile accidentally landing on Moscow or Leningrad.
Mr. Gilmour: The chances of a missile accidentally landing on Moscow or Leningrad are very slim indeed. I agree

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that Italy and Germany do not have nuclear weapons. That seems to be a good argument for this country having them.
Anyway, the latest switch in policy by the Labour Party is a prime example of the point to which, as the House will have noticed, the hon. Member for Loughborough (Mr. Cronin) referred last weekend—I gave him notice, too—when he said that the Labour leadership had been
"changing the Party's course at every shift of political wind and regardless of previous commitments".
Mr. Dalyell: Did I hear the Minister aright? Did he say that the fact that France and Germany did not have nuclear weapons was a good reason for our having them?
Mr. Gilmour: France has nuclear weapons. I said Italy and Germany. What I meant was that I think there is a strong case for there being an independent deterrent in Europe. I do not think it is a particularly new idea.
Mr. Brynmor John: In Europe?
Mr. Gilmour: We are in Europe. I was not making the point about a joint European deterrent if that is what the hon. Gentleman was worrying about. Britain is in Europe and I think that Wales is, too. No doubt in a fully integrated Europe the defence budget would be equally shared. I did not realise that the other side of the House were in favour of a fully integrated Europe. If they are not, they must explain why they have singled out defence to bear the brunt of their European zeal.
Instead of doing as the Opposition suggest, we should pay more attention to the defence expenditure of the Warsaw Pact countries than to that of our allies. It must have escaped the attention of the Labour Party that the MFBR talks are between the West and the Warsaw Pact countries, not between this country and the rest of NATO.
Mr. R. T. Paget: Surely this is the greatest hypocrisy. The hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do that whether we add to or subtract from the forces we have tee-ed up on their
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frontier, they could not last three days if the enemy moved. We all know that.
Mr. Gilmour: That may be the hon. and learned Gentleman's view, but it is not everybody's view. The job and object of NATO under Governments of both parties is to deter an attack—and there has been no war in Europe for the last 23 years.
The proportion of GNP devoted to defence is not the only method of measuring defence effort. The best method, some may think, is to measure the actual expenditure and, as I have already said, Germany spends more than we do. The Opposition should remember that only last year their spokesman said that considerable caution should be used in making comparisons on the basis of GNP. As the House knows, other countries have conscription and, as their conscripts are paid less than our volunteers, this means that there is a greater drain on their resources than the percentage of GNP indicates.
Instead of concentrating on the proportion of GNP, we should be more concerned to see that our GNP increases faster. Part of the trouble was caused by the lamentable rate of growth achieved by the Labour Party. If they had achieved the same rate of growth as the last Conservative Government managed to achieve from 1958 to 1964, the defence programme would now be taking not 5¾ per cent. but 5¼ per cent. of gross national product.
Many Labour Members are seeking to persuade the House that our expenditure on defence should be reduced to the European NATO average percentage of GNP. I hope that they will explain what items in the programme would be deleted to achieve savings of £850 million.
The other key phrase in the Opposition's amendment has even less substance. There is no dispute that the Defence budget this year shows an increase in real terms. But leaving aside the absurdity of their complaining about inflation within days of producing a rampantly inflationary programme, let us examine their allegation of a
"sharp inflationary increase in defence expenditure…".
The target for 1973–74 that we announced in the autumn of 1970 when converted to today's prices is £200 million

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below the 1973–74 Defence Estimate. Of this £200 million, £70 million is accounted for by the change in arrangements for making payments to suppliers of defence equipment announced in the 1972 White Paper; this is an accounting change and does not represent a new demand on national resources. The sum of £13 million covers several small items, such as the cost of the new Malta defence agreement. Of the remainder, £55 million is accounted for by the defence contribution to the Government's programme of measures to stimulate employment; these include the accelerated ship building programme and orders for Nimrod and other aircraft. The Opposition welcomed these measures at the time.
A further £62 million represents the extra cost of peace-keeping operations in Northern Ireland and of improved recruiting. Presumably the Opposition does not think we should have turned away these recruits, or that we should not have spent money in Northern Ireland.
If these measures are added to the target proposed by the right hon. Member for Leeds, East, revalued at today's price levels, we get a figure of just under £3,300 million as against our figure of £3,365 million. So despite all the posturing, the Opposition would not have been spending a significantly smaller proportion of GNP than we now propose.
If all the Opposition mean by their amendment is that they wish us to consult our allies and encourage them to bring their expenditure up to the same proportion of GNP as our own, let them say so. My right hon. and noble Friend the Secretary of State for Defence said some time ago that we should welcome such a development. But that would hardly satisfy the hon. Member for Salford, East. And if they are proposing a large unilateral cut in our own forces they must explain not only where they would make the cut; they must also explain why they believe that this is the right time to make it. The right hon. Member for Leeds, East and the Leader of the Opposition opposed such a cut in 1969, and their defence programme in 1970 contained no such cut in future years.
As recently as last year the Opposition Front Bench spokesman said:
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"Now, when the prospects of a negotiated détente look better than they have for years, is not the right time for making one-sided concessions. No trade union would approach negotiations and give its cards away in advance in this way. Unilateral cuts are not the way to prepare for multilateral negotiations".
That is every bit as true today. This is the nub of the defence argument. The situation has not changed; we have not changed. It is only right hon. Gentlemen opposite who have changed.
Naturally, defence expenditure cannot be insulated from the country's economy, and no figure of defence expenditure is sacrosanct. Some of my hon. Friends would like us to spend more, other people would like us to spend less. We think we have got it about right.
Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles rose—
Mr. Gilmour: I am just about to conclude. In the face of the increased Soviet build-up, it is vitally important that the NATO effort should not be damaged. Whilst negotiations continue to try to achieve balanced reductions on both sides, it would be crazy to indulge in large unilateral reductions. For these reasons, I commend the Defence White Paper to the House.
5.10 p.m.
Mr. Fred Pearl: I beg to move to leave out from "House" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
'expresses its concern at the sharp inflationary increase in defence expenditure and, while paying tribute to the three Services and civilian personnel, particularly for their outstanding service in Northern Ireland, and maintaining that they should receive adequate remuneration, calls upon Her Majesty's Government to take urgent action within the Alliance to bring our defence spending into line with that of our European allies, and further to seek to ensure that total West European expenditure should reflect any improvement in the security situation following the European Security Conference'.
This is my baptism on the Opposition Front Bench in a defence debate. Having heard the Minister of State's account of events and also having examined the Conservative Government's Defence White Paper and the hon. Gentleman's attacks on the Labour Party, I must confess that I am rather disturbed. The Minister made a dreadful speech—and I mean it.

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The Minister should have concentrated on what the Government are doing. He can make a debating speech if he so wishes but it is traditional in debates of this kind, as I have learned over a long period of time in the House, that the Government should give an account of what they are doing and of what they are going to do. The Minister of State spent too much time in trying to make cheap debating points, instead of giving the House information. If the hon. Gentleman had looked behind him during his speech, he would have seen that that was the view of many of his hon. Friends.
I appreciate that there has been some Press comment about my own position on these matters in respect of guns or butter, which no doubt is a reference to my special interest in agriculture. I have always taken the closest possible interest in defence matters, even before I became a Minister. Let me say at the outset that each one of us, on all sides of the House, must be concerned with the security and defence of our country. Moreover, in a democratic society such as ours it is essential that Parliament and politicians of all parties should have ultimate control of defence matters—in the sense that the military must be subordinate to the executive, and they in turn must have the confidence of Parliament because the Government are part of Parliament.
I recently read the interesting book written by my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton (Dr. David Owen) entitled "The Politics of Defence". In that book he said:
"Effective control of the nation's defence force must be one of the highest priorities in any democracy."
I agree wholeheartedly with my hon. Friend, and in this debate we shall be discussing defence and strategy issues—although those issues were dealt with in only part of the Minister's speech. We shall subsequently be debating the Estimates on the various Services.
I wish to pay tribute to the Services and especially to our civilian defence personnel. I wish to make special reference to our troops in Northern Ireland who are performing a difficult task. I pay tribute to the courage and patience of our Service men in face of cowardly acts
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of terrorism. The Secretary of State for Defence said recently in another place that considerable progress had been made in the last year in improving troop accommodation. The Minister of State referred to other matters affecting Service men in Northern Ireland.
I understand that a new barracks and a permanent construction for 700 men has been completed in Aldergrove. There are to be seven camps giving accommodation for 1,700 men, and a further five temporary camps to provide for 1,250 men are nearly ready for occupation. A third ship, the "Rame Head", provided by the Royal Navy, will accommodate a further 500 men. Next year we shall be spending another £4 million on troop accommodation and this is money well spent.
I welcome the statement about the payments of compensation and pensions to widows of Service men and to the wives of those who have been severely injured. We shall study the plan in detail and no doubt will seek to probe it on other occasions.
We must recognise that our troops are still operating in difficult conditions and many are on their third or fourth tour of duty. We must have sympathy and understanding for them. The morale of the troops is remarkable in view of all their difficulties.
I also wish to say a word about civilian personnel who work in defence establishments. The Government propose to rationalise defence research establishments. I have received strong representations from the Institution of Professional Civil Servants and from the Engineering Section of the Amalgamated Union of Engineering Workers. My hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin (Mrs. Shirley Williams) has met groups of representatives on this matter, and those groups recognise the stark reality that staff will be discharged and in some cases with little prospect of re-employment. Morale in that section of employment is extremely low and I hope that the Government reply to this debate will seek to deal with the question of civilian personnel.
Let me give some examples. In the Services Electronic Research Laboratory at Baldock there will be 239 redundancies. There will be 421 redundancies at the Radar Research Establishment (Flying Division), and at the Signals Research

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and Development Establishment at Christchurch, in Hampshire, there will be a further 521 redundancies. At Baldock some 35 per cent. of male industrial workers are highly skilled with at least six years' training. About 80 per cent. of the women there have had three to five years' training and the rest are semiskilled. A very high proportion are older men and women who were promised security of employment, and who have worked at the establishment for many years. Some 64 per cent. of the men and 33 per cent. of the women industrial employees are over 50 and for most of them it will be impossible to obtain a new job. This could be a serious waste of skill and experience. Therefore, I hope that the Minister will make a statement in this debate to try to alleviate the great anxieties on this matter.
I come to the general points that have been made.
Mr. Frank Tomney: What my right hon. Friend is now saying conflicts with the amendment in the name of the Leader of the Opposition because it will increase expenditure and not reduce it.
Mr. Peart: I do not accept that point. It would be wrong to waste skills. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith, North (Mr. Tomney) for his helpful contribution. But we desire more information about weapons systems and programmes on which there could be a major saving. The manpower saving in respect of these establishments would in the end amount to a waste of talent and a waste of resources. I am surprised by my hon. Friend, who is a member of a trade union—and his trade union is very much concerned with this and it has made representations to me. I am surprised at his stupid intervention.
Mr. Tomney Mr. Tomney rose—
Mr. Peart: A debate on the Estimates affords an opportunity to consider the purpose of British defence forces. In any consideration it is inevitable that issues of foreign policy should arise and naturally there is the problem of the state of the British economy. The Minister seems to think that we on the Labour side were responsible for all the difficulties. Obviously those difficulties affect the issue and there are also many
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intangibles, for example the morale and will of our people.
Indeed, as has been said on a previous occasion by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), defence spending and military forces are justified only in so far as they are necessary, first, to maintain the physical security of the British people against internal or external attack—and here we justify our 14,000 or more troops in Northern Ireland; secondly, to make our own specific contribution towards the maintenance of world peace through the United Nations—and an example of that is Cyprus; and thirdly, we still have a responsibility for the security of a few remaining colonies—and that includes Gibraltar and British Honduras. I was in British Honduras only last year and while there I spoke to some of our military personnel. That country will soon be independent but our troops still have a presence.
Inevitably we come back to Europe. The main function of our defence forces is to prevent a war in Europe. I cannot visualise a situation in which Britain would come under direct attack except in the context of a general European war. Such a war would inevitably involve the use of nuclear weapons at some stage. Here I give my own view. Even if the philosophy and practice of neutralism dominated our political thinking, we would inexorably and inevitably be sucked into a conflagration. If we look back on post-war development of defence we can see why the Labour Government and the late Lord Attlee and Ernest Bevin played a leading rôle in setting up NATO.
Successive Governments of all persuasions have accepted that peace can be preserved only by a proper British contribution to NATO, which must be accompanied by a contribution from other countries. Despite the inferences by the Minister of State, the Opposition believes in NATO. Moreover, I believe in military links of Britain and like-minded European nations with the United States. It is all very well talking about independence in the sphere of nuclear weapons, but we are not really independent. We rely on the United States which has helped to create stability and deter aggression. We must remember, and we forget it sometimes, that the United States also

1523
saved Europe with the Marshall Plan. I wish that some mention had been made today of the contribution that the United States has made in view of the difficulties it has faced over Vietnam and some of the problems affecting its service personnel.
The existence of NATO has established the probability that an armed invasion of any of its members would lead to the aggressor suffering damage out of all proportion to any possible gain. Even though Western Europe lies shoulder to shoulder with the Communist world, and with all the tensions that go with that, we must remember that we have enjoyed a degree of security against military attack and at the same time we have seen wars in other parts of the world, as in Asia in Vietnam and the Indian Continent, and in Africa and the Middle East. However, I warn the Government that we should not be complacent. I accept what the Secretary-General of NATO, Dr. Luns, said on 22nd March, 1972, when he addressed the Royal United Service Institute. He emphasised that we must not forget the importance of preparedness.
NATO therefore continues to exist, and I would argue that if it did not exist, if the alliance were dissolved, those countries close to Eastern Europe would tend to increase their armed forces rather than to reduce them. We have on record what the Swedish Social Democratic Prime Minister said in January last year when he wrote in the 1972 edition of the Socialist International Journal:
"We have demonstrated our intention to maintain our neutrality with strong defence forces. In relation to its population Sweden's expenditure on defence is among the highest in the world."
We must remember that West Germany has a long frontier with the Communist countries. The end of NATO would probably stimulate expansion in Germany's armed forces and would hinder progress towards a détente in Europe. I want a détente in Europe and we should not be pessimistic. Ever since 1968 NATO has sought to pursue a policy of détente under various well-known labels. They have been advanced by both East and West. I refer to peaceful co-existence, renunciation of the use of force, the SALT talks, the Berlin negotiations, Ostpolitik and NATO's initiative in mutual and balance force reductions.
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They have been accompanied by pragmatic developments such as increased talks, both bilateral and multilateral, with the countries of the Warsaw Pact. We have also seen an expansion of East-West trade and there has been a new approach to China by both the United States and Britain. These are positive developments and we should encourage them. Whilst I defend NATO, therefore, I do not believe that we can assume that everything in the garden is lovely.
Many questions must be asked and I want to put a few to the Minister today. What is the optimum size and strategy for NATO forces if they are to minimise the risk of war and at the same time further chances of agreement with the Communist countries in the Warsaw Pact? What should be our contribution to NATO? It is all very well to criticise what our amendments says about contributions which could be shared within the Alliance, as the Minister has done superficially. But that is a distinct point of view.
There has been unprecedented inflation, not only in Britain, which has affected the costs of equipment. Costs have increased partly because of greater sophistication of modern weapons systems. The Minister mentioned the MRCA, but he did not give details even though my hon. Friend pressed him over and over again for information. He was coy about it. Instead of hurling abuse at the Opposition he would have served the House better if he had provided more information. After all, we have a right to know about costs, the development of prototypes and what agreements have been made.
These are matters on which my hon. Friends are right to probe the Government. It may be that this is an expensive project. It may need to be curtailed or pruned, but we have no information. The information was not forthcoming from the Secretary of State in the other place and it has not been given in the debate today.
Mr. Wilkinson: The right hon. Gentleman has not mentioned the most rapidly expanding part of the defence budget, which is pay and allowances. The RAF has taken drastic steps to revise its manpower planning in order to provide more

1525
money for the sort of sophisticated equipment it will need in the future.
Mr. Peart: I was dealing with MRCA. We have had no information about it. I am surprised at the hon. Gentleman if he is satisfied with the Minister's explanation.
Expenditure is a matter of concern to all. It has been dealt with by hon. Members on both sides of the House on previous occasions. The Ninth Report from the Expenditure Committee includes a report of the Defence and External Affairs Sub-Committee from 25th January to 1st October 1972. On page 2, paragraph 6, it states:
"We feel that we should draw the attention of the House to our increasing concern over the mounting financial pressure which is developing for the Defence Budget in the late 1970s. These costs could be even further exacerbated if there were to be increased spending over this period on the strategic nuclear forces."
The Members who compiled that report do not agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East and other hon. Members on this side of the House. I refer to the hon. and gallant Member for Eye (Sir H. Harrison), the chairman, the hon. and gallant Member for Lichfield and Tamworth (Major-General Jack d'Avigdor-Goldsmid), a distinguished ex-soldier, and indeed, the right hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. du Cann). There is general concern about the matter, and it is not sufficient for the Minister so flippantly to dismiss our demand for more information.
The White Paper puts forward certain assumptions which we must examine in detail. It assumes, as before, that there is now an opportunity for negotiation in Europe. I come to my wider theme. In view of expanding Soviet military strength, such negotiations from the West must be based on a position of strength. I have argued this before. But where is that strength to come from? It does not come from indiscriminate spending, as could happen, unless there is a proper check on military programmes.
Without American support there is no possibility for Western Europe, as individual nations or as a whole, to maintain a defence position equal to that of the Soviet Union. A piecemeal programme of improvements, even for NATO, and
1526
increased spending on hardware will not solve the problem.
In Chapter 1, paragraph 9, the White Paper declares:
"Thus in parallel with the enlargement of the European Economic Community, a number of European countries will be developing and extending their practical co-operation in defence. That process should be facilitated by the opportunities that will arise in the Community for the removal of fiscal, legal and technical barriers to trade and to the free operation of enterprises throughout the Community."
What does that paragraph mean? Have they considered Europe in view of what M. Debre has said? Many of my hon. Friends heard M. Debré, the French Minister of Defence, speak at Western European Union. He is on record as saying:
"If defence is to be credible it must remain national in character."
How can the Minister square his thinking about Europe with that of the French Minister of Defence? M. Debré is a good friend of this country. He is an able man and a fine politician. Nevertheless, he believes that defence must remain national in character.
Entry into the European Economic Community and our attitude raises questions of closer European defence co-operation—in particular, that of Anglo-French nuclear sharing which has been one of the issues in the shadows of recent negotiations. Again we do not know the details. Whatever the arguments—many hon. Members raised this matter during the period of the Prime Minister's talks with M. Pompidou over our terms of entry into the Common Market—I suspect that both leaders are attracted to the long-term possibilities.
We are all acquainted with the Prime Minister's view in his Godkin Lectures which he delivered at Harvard University in March 1967. He expressed the view that we should have a nuclear force based on existing British and French forces which could be held in trusteeship for Europe and as a whole. It may be right to have this policy, but we have had no information about it. It may be wrong. Therefore, we should have more information.
Even in 1970, in a foreword in his introduction to a book published by the

1527
Oxford University Press, the Prime Minister reiterated his viewpoint:
"In my Godkin Lectures I was led by this train of thought to propose that the British and French nuclear forces should be pooled to form a joint deterrent which would be held in trust for Europe."
Is that the Government's thinking? Are we to have a reply on this matter'?
Sir Geoffrey de Freitas: Last year some of us posed this question and none has received the slightest answer. I wonder whether my right hon. Friend could supplement it and tell us whether the idea of Anglo-French pooling has been discussed with the Germans?
Mr. Peart: It is not for me to answer that question. My right hon. Friend has rightly pressed the Minister to provide the House with an answer to this question. Hon. Members on both sides would like to know the Government's policy on this matter.
We have a special relationship with the United States under the 1946 Macmahon Act which prevents us sharing our knowledge with any other State. Therefore, any decision on this matter would affect our relations with the United States.
We all know that the late General de Gaulle attempted to make France a great nuclear power, that France refused to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, and, indeed, has not signed it to this day. France has always been hostile to and resentful of America's nuclear supremacy. We must consider these facts.
The adoption of Anglo-French nuclear sharing would mean major changes in the balance of power in Europe and on the larger international scene. I regard this as one of the important matters in the debate. Even the Observer and other papers have taken up this matter, and I asked the Minister about it during Defence Questions. On 20th February The Guardian, for example, states:
"M. Debré has confirmed that the decision of the British Government to buy its second generation nuclear weapons from the United States has made impossible a common British-French defence policy."
Our attitude is important. What is the Government's policy? Even today, when my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition pressed the Prime Minister, there was uncertainty about the Govern-
1528
ment's attitude to this matter. Do the Government condemn France for having tests? Have they made further representations? Do they support New Zealand and Australia? We would like to know. Today there was evasion. Many of my hon. Friends will recall the incident.
I come now to the question of what will succeed Polaris. The Minister mentioned Polaris. Again, why cannot we have a statement? Over the years there has been too much secrecy and misspending. I remind the House of the history of Blue Streak and Blue Water and the desire of many people to have an independent deterrent. We know what that has cost this country. Nothing has been effective. Therefore, we have a right to ask certain questions. After all, we rely on the United States umbrella, whether we like it or not.
Are we to continue with Polaris? Are we to buy Poseidon'? Are we to Euro-peanise our nuclear forces, or do we rely on our own activities? Or do we rely solely on the American umbrella? These are key issues, the issues that we ought to be discussing.
As the Observer said on 25th February:
"The Defence White Paper published last week is a frustrating and disappointing document. It is frustrating because of what it does not say: there is not a word on the central problem now facing Britain's defence planning, which is whether or not to acquire the American Posiedon missile and thereby move into a new generation of rocketry which relies upon missiles with several independently targeted warheads. It is disappointing because of what it does say. Its only piece of political meat is a stolid, anachronistic repetition of yesterday's cold war doctrine."
Many correspondents believe that, in his recent talks in the United States, the Prime Minister has won assurances that there will be nuclear defence exchanges between this country and the United States. All that I am suggesting is that here, in a major defence debate, we should be debating these matters. Instead of trying to score small party points, the Minister should have been dealing with these main issues.
After all, Washington has been much more forthcoming than Whitehall. I have here The Times of 7th February containing a report from its Washington correspondent, Mr. Emery, with a whole lot of information about the procurement of

1529
missiles and the likely dollar cost to Britain of purchasing the Poseidon sub marine-launched missile as a replacement for the Polaris.
I also have here, something which one can get in the Library, the final report to the Congress of the Secretary of Defence, Melvin Laird, covering the period from January 1969 to January 1973. I will not weary the House with the details in this document, but this is available information of a much more detailed character than we have in our own Defence White Paper, or what is given by Ministers. The Government must come clean on this and must make up their minds soon.
After all, we are now entering a new phase. Although we must be realistic, I hope that we will all welcome the talks which are now in progress on European security. Here and there, there may be a setback. We have had the preliminary multilateral discussions on European security and co-operation which began in Helsinki in November. There have also been the SALT talks which began in November of last year. We have had the preliminary discussions on mutual and balanced force reductions, which are continuing.
Above all, we have seen the Ostpolitik success of the German Government and of Chancellor Willi Brandt. Important treaties have been ratified among the Federal Republic, the Soviet Union and Poland which have loosened, as someone has said, the diplomatic log jam. As a result of ratification of those treaties, the Soviet Union agreed to the final signature of the four-power agreement on Berlin, and that came into force last year.
All this is positive progress. There have been agreements between the Federal Republic and the GDR, first on access of West Berliners to East Berlin and, second, on the regulation of traffic between the two States, which were in themselves dependent on the four-Power agreement on Berlin. These have now been completed and are in force. Now the two countries seek to move towards negotiations—final negotiations one day they hope—of a basic treaty which will mean recognition by both sides. This is a tremendous step forward and we must praise our friends in Germany.
I was glad to see that Major-General Sixsmith, writing in the Army Quarterly
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of July last year on the military situation in Europe, paid a tremendous tribute to Germany:
"Nothing that has happened since the earliest days of NATO has so altered the situation in Europe as the treaties now being ratified as a result of Herr Brandt's eastern policy. Although these treaties have done little more than recognise the legitimacy of the German Democratic Republic and subject to peaceful negotiation the existing frontier between Germany and Poland, they have removed a dangerous uncertainty from east-west relations."
I want this process to go on.
Mr. Patrick Cormack: Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that this euphoria is, in the opinion of some people, perhaps a little premature?
Mr. Peart: I could not accept that. But this is the viewpoint of a man of the calibre of Major-General Sixsmith and I believe that it is shared by many people. It is right to be realistic, but also to recognise that we must move forward; a negative attitude such as that which I detected in the Foreign Secretary's speech in our last foreign affairs debate is wrong.
Our policy should be to achieve a détente. I believe we can get it. I am not saying that we should unilaterally disarm or that we should overnight assume that everything will be rosy. Of course not. There will be hard negotiations, but at least a start has been made, and I should have thought that every hon. Member would have welcomed that.
These are the important issues. I accept that there are those who disagree with defence. I read a moving speech by Lord Soper in another place. There are hon. Members in my own party who sincerely believe that unilateralism and pacifism in the best sense are the right policies. I understand this, although I take a different view myself.
I should like to quote Professor Michael Howard, that distinguished writer on military affairs, writing in January's Foreign Affairs in an article entitled "The Relevance of Traditional Strategy":
"It is a sombre thought that, at a time when so large a proportion of the human race remains near starvation level, about six per cent. of the world's resources, or something under 200 billion dollars, is still being devoted to military expenditure, with no serious likelihood of this situation fundamentally changing

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during the remainder of this century. Social scientists will continue to seek basic causes. … Any sovereign state—that is, any community which wishes to maintain a capacity for independent political action—may have to use or indicate its capacity and readiness to use force—functional and purposive violence—to protect itself against coercion by other states."
That is the reality.
"Such is the conventional wisdom which will continue to rule mankind until we develop a viable alternative, or until there develops so strong a global sense of community that coercion, the use of force to impose one's will on others, becomes literally unthinkable. At present, unfortunately, such coercion is by no means unthinkable even within the most stable of communities and the most powerful of sovereign states."
I believe in that viewpoint. At the same time, I believe that we should try to achieve peace between the major power groupings. Within those groupings we in NATO, and we, the British people, in our own way, will make a distinctive contribution. But it must be rational and sensible and we must be aware also of the social needs of our people.
5.50 p.m.
Mr. Philip Goodhart: I am glad that the right hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) made a speech which was considerably more robust than the Oppositions amendment. I was not clear whether the right hon. Gentleman was in favour of the amendment. I am not surprised that the right hon. Gentleman was rather cross when my hon. Friend the Minister of State referred to the Opposition's amendment.
The division which exists within the Labour Party has been revealed in the course of the first two speeches. We heard the robust intervention from the hon. Member for Hammersmith, North (Mr. Tomney), who seemed to be in favour of rather greater expenditure.
Mr. Tomney: My intervention was intended to be helpful. Any hon. Member who has known me for the last 20 years in this House, and who has heard the speeches which I have made on defence and foreign policy, must have realised that I was offering my right hon. Friend the Member for Workington a way out. I wanted him to think quickly whilst on his feet. We cannot and must not reduce expenditure in specialised divisions. My right hon. Friend missed the point completely.
Mr. Peart: The House will realise that I made precisely that point—namely, that there could be savings in other areas.
Mr. Goodhart: Perhaps I might intervene in the strife which appears to exist on the Opposition benches. There was no intervention by the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun) on behalf of the unilateralists and those who believe in a policy of full frontal nudity when considering conventional defence.
There are some divisions within the Conservative Party. There are those who believe that the Government have done their defence sums correctly. There are also those who believe that the Government should be spending rather more on defence than they have spent in the past.
If we consider the last five years, it is apparent that the proportion of the gross national product spent in this country on defence has declined and that the proportion of Government expenditure devoted to defence has declined. It is known that we are reducing our real expenditure on defence at a faster rate than our allies on the Continent of Europe.
I shall give two examples of the way in which defence expenditure has declined as a proportion of Government expenditure. In 1970–71 we were spending some £18 million a year more on the salaries of those in the Navy and Royal Marines—that includes their allowances—than we were on the salaries of those in the Inland Revenue and the Customs and Excise. The Government have an honourable record on tax reduction. However, for the first time the combined salaries of the Customs and Excise and the Inland Revenue staffs is now larger than the pay of the Royal Navy and the Royal Marines.
Before the General Election of 1966 the then Prime Minister made great play of the fact that for the first time in our history expenditure on education was greater than expenditure on defence. Of course, there is a certain amount of argument about some educational statistics. The White Paper on Government expenditure indicates that expenditure on education now is £500 million greater than the spending on defence. In 1976–77 we shall spend £1,000 million more on education than on defence. The Government have not run wild with expenditure.
Mr. Emlyn Hooson: The hon. Gentleman's argument is extremely tortuous. The amount which we spend on education and defence depends on our needs. The real issue is what are our needs.
Mr. Goodhart: I am trying to deal with criticisms which were made from the Opposition benches about the Government overspending on defence. I agree with the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson) that our expenditure must be related to our needs.
Since the Government's White Paper was produced, and since the Estimates were produced, the need for defence expenditure has increased. During the last few weeks we have witnessed turmoil in the foreign exchange markets. We have seen the value of the German mark increase. We have seen the value of the dollar plummet and various other currencies fluctuating sharply. That must have had a damaging effect on the defence posture of the Western Alliance. It will cost us more money.
We shall spend some £209 million in Germany this year on BAOR. Clearly the increased value of the mark will increase that expenditure. As I understand it, our current offset agreements will not cover that increase in direct costs. There will also be substantial increases in indirect costs. We know that there are strong pressures in the United States to bring back the American forces. I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman paid tribute to the way in which the United States has contributed in the past to the defence of Europe. However, there are pressures to bring the boys back home. The fall in the value of the dollar and the increased value of the mark will substantially increase the pressures to bring the American forces back home.
Will the European countries step in and fill the breach? If so, there will be increased expenditure. If not, the doctrine of flexible response, on which hon. Members on the Labour benches have set so much store, will go out of the window. Changes in the exchange rate will affect our collaborative projects, particularly the multi-role combat aircraft. Obviously there cannot be a dramatic change in value between the pound and the mark without that affecting
1534
seriously the financial negotiations for the project. It is a project which is vital for the future of the German air force and our Royal Air Force.
The future of European defence depends on collaborative projects. We know that the pressure of the increased cost of manpower depends heavily on the defence budgets of a great many studies. A study has just been done in Germany which reveals that if present trends continue, Germany will be able to spend only 8 per cent. of its defence budget on weapon procurement. In this country we have done rather better than the Germans in balancing the cost of manpower and the cost of weapon procurement but the trend exists here as well as in Germany and in all the other countries of the alliance.
This means that in future we are going to be increasingly forced into collaborative ventures, not because these are cheaper—on the contrary, they are usually more expensive and more complicated—but because they are much more difficult to cancel once they have been started. This is what will save them, because if one has a venture which can be cut with only domestic upheaval, or a project which, if cancelled, would mean a major diplomatic row within the alliance, the tendency will be to cut the domestic project rather than the multinational one.
Mr. Tomney: A few years ago we had a fantastic aircraft, the TSR 2, which was shut out of the European market, chiefly by the American manufacturers. We have the Chieftain tank, which is superior to any other tank, and we cannot sell that either, for the same reason.
Mr. Goodhart: I am not sure whether the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) would think that a reference to the TSR 2 in a defence debate was altogether helpful, but I do take the hon. Member's point.
I welcome the changes which the Government have made in defence procurement and I pay tribute to the work of the Minister of State, but I regret the reorganisation which will mean that there will be less direct Ministerial involvement in defence procurement matters. I also regret that the Controllerate of Guided Weapons and Electronics seems about to

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disappear as well. Closer Ministerial watch is needed on procurement at this time rather than a cutting down.
I also want to mention the splendid way in which the Army has been tackling the problem of terrorism in Northern Ireland. This is a type of conflict in which I have had some experience, having served in the Army for 18 months in Palestine at a time when it was heavily engaged in anti-terrorist activities. I know how difficult it is for the Army to operate and how spectacular its successes have been in recent months.
It is the responsibility of Ministers to see that the Army is assigned to the right rôle in Northern Ireland, and Ministers must also ensure that it does not exhaust itself in that rôle. In the first seven months of 1972, I made some substantial criticisms of the restrictions that were placed on the Army's conduct of affairs in Northern Ireland, but since then Operation Motorman has re-established the Army's presence in all parts of Belfast and Londonderry and so our security effort there has been made a great deal more effective.
However, I am still concerned about the strain on the troops. I hope that the publication of the White Paper will relieve some of the tension and reduce some of the violence. But our best defence is to make it plain to our enemies that we can outlast them. At present, we are putting too much strain on the troops. Many senior officers and junior ranks to whom I have spoken in recent months agree that a 12-month break between emergency four-month tours is reasonable. But at the moment far too many units are being sent back to Northern Ireland on emergency tours after a break of only eight months or even less. These frequent tours have a particularly bad effect on re-engagement, especially as a high proportion of those involved are young married men.
The changes needed to reduce this strain on the Army would not be very great but first an effort must be made to build up local forces and ultimately it must be recognised that the main responsibility for security in Northern Ireland must be borne by the inhabitants themselves. This means that more men are needed in both the Ulster Defence
1536
Regiment and the Royal Ulster Constabulary. It may also mean closely looking at the rôle of the RUC, because the findings of the Hunt Committee, made some years ago, are now long out of date. There is talk of a permanent element in the UDR. I think that this could be helpful.
I note, meanwhile, that there are certain units in the Army drawn from Northern Ireland that are not sent to Northern Ireland. I can understand that when violence broke out it was thought right that these regiments should not serve there. It is now time to consider phasing them back into a Northern Ireland rôle because if they, with their military traditions, cannot make a real contribution to internal security in Northern Ireland, a regular element of the Ulster Defence Regiment would not be able to do so.
There must be a more flexible look at the entire call-up system of the T & AVR. It is wrong that hundreds of T & AVR recruits in Northern Ireland should be unable to take part in the internal security situation without going over and leaving their comrades and joining the Ulster Defence Regiment.
I join with the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Churchill) who, in an intervention in my hon. Friend's speech, paid tribute to the magnificent work of the bomb disposal squads in Ulster. These squads should receive some special allowance for their arduous and dangerous work. I have made this suggestion in the past and, alas, many members of these squads have since been killed or injured. They have now had to extend their work to this side of the Irish Sea—to London. But at least the bombs in London have reminded us that terrorism is not an abstract subject, something that takes place in the middle of Germany. Some of our enemies are a great deal closer to hand than that.
6.10 p.m.
Mr. R. T. Paget: May I begin with a very small point from SSAFA concerning the provision of British television by piping it to our forces in Germany, particularly in view of the Irish situation and men being constantly moved out of Germany with the result that there is great loneliness there. It would give them contact with things that

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are happening in this country. I believe that it would cost under £1 million, which in terms of modern Estimates is "peanuts", so I hope something can be done
I would like to turn straight away to Ireland. I do not regard Ireland with the level of euphoria which seemed to infect the hon. Member for Beckenham (Mr. Goodhart). I do not believe that the Army is succeeding. I judge by the fact that there are more murders and more explosions, and that to me is not a badge of success. But I do not blame the Army for this. I blame its political masters who impose upon it conditions which are unfair to any army.
An army which is asked to go and tight a guerrilla war is entitled to the protection given to an occupying force by the laws and customs of war. Those laws and customs were worked out by the nations over a period of 200 years and were given expression in the various Hague conventions. They gave occupying troops certain powers, and it was humane that occupying troops should have those powers, because the cruelty of guerrilla war and civilian resistance was so much greater. Those powers included powers of interrogation by methods quite different from those of civilian police—powers of reprisal and powers of collective punishment. I do not believe it is possible for the Army to succeed in Ireland or for any army to succeed when faced with a guerrilla situation. Our Army is expected to deal with a war situation by methods appropriate to a civilian police force in peacetime. I just do not believe that it can be done.
Speaking last year I said:
"At Question Time today we were told that in future interrogation will be based on the practices of the civil police. Cannot the Government realise that this is a slightly uncivil situation? When the police are looking for information, that is a leisurely procedure ending in a prosecution for a crime within a well-ordered community. In the present situation our troops are looking for information with the object of saving life. This information must be obtained quickly, because if it is not, the guns and explosives will be used to kill people.
When the Government, coddling their liberal consciences' sit back and say 'We will use only those methods used by the civil police 'they should realise how lethal liberalism is and that the blood of those people who die because the information is not obtained
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lies squarely on their hands."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th March, 1972; Vol. 833, c. 816.]
A lot of people have died since then and many have died because the information was not obtained.
The second thing I recommended in that speech was that the explosions which were then beginning should be stopped. They could have been stopped by reprisal, by the method used by the Irish Free State in 1922 when it faced exactly the same situation. Whenever a bomb went off an officer of the IRA was taken out and shot. We might have had to shoot perhaps half a dozen of the IRA officers we had in our hands. It would have stopped the bombing and would have saved the lives of many hundreds of innocent people. It is inhumane to be weak. It is inhumane to ignore the laws of war and the experience of generations because one has been infected by inhibitions of this kind.
Mr. James Wellbeloved: Does not my hon. and learned Friend understand that urban guerrillas, to use the description of Mao Tse-tung, "swim in the sea of the people" and that the execution of prisoners would merely enlarge that sea and make it more turbulent, leading to more, not less, loss of life?
Mr. Paget: That was not the experience of the Irish Free State Government when they used precisely these methods to stop the explosions. I go on to collective punishment. We had a particularly horrifying incident a few weeks ago. A boy of 19 got separated for a moment from his patrol. He was mobbed by a gang of women, representing the inhabitants of that kind of area, and held down while his brains were blown out by a pistol. And nothing is done. If ever there was a classic instance which invited a collective punishment upon that area, that was it.
I will tell the House what the collective punishment should have been. There should have been a strict curfew involving the sealing of every door and window in that area, to be opened once a day to bring the refuse out and to pass in a very spartan ration. This should have gone on until every house had been searched and every inhabitant of the area had been interrogated. It should have taken some weeks. After such an experience an area is less inclined to see that kind of thing

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happen in it. These are the kinds of measure which are necessary. They are not inhumane measures. They are the alternatives to inhumanity. If we go waddling along in this kind of situation we get more and more suffering.
We have had a referendum—as though we did not know what the answer would be.
We divert our whole security forces to policing a number of voting booths and leave an open field for every bomber here. Now we are to have a White Paper. We know very well that that will not be acceptable to anybody. It cannot be. There is not a political situation here and we know perfectly well that the reaction to it will be a lot more bombs. At Question Time my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition said "Keep it secret. Do not produce it until the last moment." Why produce it at all? What good will it do? There is not a political situation here. There never is in Ireland until the disrupters of any situation have been dealt with. That is all Irish experience. First we have to smash the rebellion. Then there can be a political situation. We cannot reverse the process. It does not work in Ireland.
I turn now to my third point. In 1952 the Powers which subsequently constituted NATO met at Lisbon to decide what was necessary—
Sir G. Freitas: NATO was already formed then.
Mr. Paget: My memory has become a little muddled. I thought that it was formed afterwards. In fact I was at Lisbon. But I accept what my right hon. Friend says. It may have been formed immediately before.
The purpose of the meeting of the chiefs of staff was to decide the minimum forces necessary to provide an effective resistance to the Russian forces which at that time were on the borders of a divided Germany. The answer came. It would require 50 divisions, a front-line air force of not less than 400 aircraft and another 120 divisions available for reinforcement at so many days' notice.
The other important requirement was that those forces should be held behind the Rhine. It was argued that if they were put in an advanced position they
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would be impotent, as Stalin's defence forces were impotent when Hitler's troops moved into Russia. It is a well-known fact that forces which are strung along a border are left with no chance of defending themselves.
The proposals of the chiefs of staff were rejected. They were rejected for two reasons. The first was that the armies of Europe had not the will to provide that number of divisions. They have never provided even half that number. The second reason was that Germany was not willing to provide the battlefield. Instead, we had less than half those forces posted on the frontiers of Germany where they could not possibly fight. That has been the situation, and they have been there simply as a trip wire, a demonstration force which would indicate that if they were hit the American deterrent would be brought into play. We have been defended by the American deterrent and by nothing but the American deterrent these past 20 years.
Now the American deterrent has gone. I recommend hon. Members to read the SALT Agreement. The basis of that agreement is that each of the great Powers has bared its heart to the enemy. Each of them has said to the other, "Save for two years, we agree not to defend ourselves. We agree to make ourselves destructively vulnerable to each other. We agree to accept the defence of the bee whose sting means death to itself." That is what the SALT Agreement means. It means that neither Russia nor America can use nuclear weapons unless the other uses those nuclear weapons. The credibility of American nuclear weapons to defend an ally has disappeared with the SALT Agreement.
Mr. Wilkinson: It is a pity that the hon. and learned Gentleman has not measured the tethered goat. Surely it is the presence of American troops forward in Germany who are vulnerable to a nuclear attack, perhaps of a tactical kind, which could provoke a nuclear retaliation by the Americans which is the ultimate deterrent.
Mr. Paget: I was about to come to that point. It is equally invalid. If the Russians were to move—and I do not believe that they would—no nuclear weapons would be required. Nor could we use them. I say that for this reason.

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We are so disposed that the whole German north plain is open. We cannot put a bomb in it. We cannot mine a bridge. Under the German constitution we cannot even control the petrol stations which are designed and laid out to supply an advancing army. If the Russians at last light and with no more than three divisions were to move, they could be on the Rhine by first light the next morning. If it happened to be a winter night and the river was frozen they could be on the Swiss frontier by the third day and the corridor which they had cut could be filled in by their seven airborne divisions. The whole NATO force would be in the bag on the third day.
I remember general staff officers under Liddell Hart working this out when we had an army game on it. That is the extent of the peril of the situation, and the advantage which is available to the Russians is that it would not create the concentrations which make for a nuclear target. Instead, by forcing us in on ourselves, it would compel us to provide those targets all the time so that we would not dare to initiate the use of nuclear weapons.
That is the reality of the defence situation. The trouble is that the present power vacuum is such that there is no will in Europe to fill it. There is no will in Europe to defend itself, whether it be a grouping of nations or individual nations. That is the dreadful fact.
The reality of a nation depends on a common will to defend itself. That is one of the reasons why I hate the Common Market. It is a political set-up with no will to defend itself. It is prepared to be fat and undefended and to get fatter on an undefended border which it has not the will or the power to defend—until the day conies.
I do not believe that it will even be necessary for the Russians to move a soldier. What will happen is that a feeling will develop in West Germany about its indefensibility. Inside Germany there will be a build up of patriotic "Unite the Fatherland" fronts. Those fronts will become more and more effective and, because of the relative powers there, a united Fatherland inevitably will be of the East. What then will happen to France and Italy where the effective working-class parties are Communist?
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That is the situation that we face and in facing it we are leaving ourselves naked because we have no means to defend ourselves. Let no one kid himself that our Polaris, even if it is converted to Poseidon, provides any kind of defence. It does not. Nuclear weapons are weapons of deterrence and, by their own definition, the owner of those weapons can be deterred.
How are we deterred? I remember working out, at a time when nuclear weapons were of a Hiroshima size, what would be required to reduce this country to a situation where it was no longer governable. The answer was 13 Hiroshima-size weapons. We are in medium range with more than 700 targeted upon us. With that kind of deterrent, how would we dare in any conceivable circumstances to use a nuclear weapon on the Russians? Not even the most nervous Russian would be tempted to fear such a folly as that. It is like a yacht with a popgun facing the full armament of a battleship.
Defence is still possible, by which I mean defence in real terms. But it is a defence which involves the will of a community to defend itself. When M. Debré points out the barrenness of NATO and that defence must be a national thing because there is no will save a national thing to take defence, he speaks the literal truth. It is not worth any nation's while to try to occupy another nation which is resolved to defend itself.
The curious thing is that the more sophisticated weapons have become the more impossible it is to coerce a civil population which is determined to resistance.
Mr. Wellbeloved: Northern Ireland.
Mr. Paget: It is, I agree, quite impossible to do that. It is quite possible to suppress a small group of terrorists but it is not possible to suppress a whole nation, as we have seen. Nations which have a will to defend themselves, quite small nations—there are not many in Europe: Switzerland, Sweden, Norway, Yugoslavia, Finland—apply the highest level of their effort to defence because they are resolved to make occupation of their country too expensive. We are doing nothing about that. We have no local defence, which is the only kind

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that matters and which alone provides any real deterrent. We are leaving ourselves naked for when we are faced with the collapse of Europe.
My criticism of the White Paper is that it goes in for gestures, poses and pretences which nobody believes and leaves utterly undone the thing that we need—a local defence based on territory, based on universal training. This alone can provide us with the protection which we shall need when the day comes, and it will come.
6.32 p.m.
Mr. Simon Wingfield Digby: The hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) certainly has not given the House a very cheerful account of the defence of this country as he sees it. He has questioned the credibility of the deterrent, although the deterrent itself may be more equal than it was. He is right, I suppose, to point out the vulnerability of the North German plain, but even when describing that I think he was doing less than justice to the NATO forces as I see their role, and I have visited the Central Command Headquarters and had a lot of conversations there in fairly recent years. So I certainly hope the picture he has painted is altogether too pessimistic.
I thought that the hon. and learned Member was on slightly stronger ground when he spoke of the lack of a European will for defence, in that so many of our European partners are not willing to spend very much on defence. I am glad that he has at least brought this debate back to the kind of broad aspects of strategy that we are used to discussing on these occasions.
I am very glad that we are able to welcome the right hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) to speak on defence from the Opposition Front Bench. He has occupied many high offices in this House and he brings to defence a certain practical experience which I think he will find useful. But I am sorry that he should open up his innings by leading the Labour Party into voting against a Defence White Paper.
I believe that the House is always in great difficulty on defence questions be-
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cause modern weaponry is getting so terribly complicated and is changing all the time. So much of it is secret, and hon. Members of the House have little enough opportunity to inform themselves of the latest changes and their tactical and strategic consequences. I was very glad to see that the Economist brought out a special supplement on the Royal Navy the other day, which I think would be useful to many hon. Members.
I believe that those of us who are privileged to serve on the Defence Committee of Western European Union get some very useful experience in that respect in our visits to various headquarters. We had a particularly interesting one to Washington a year ago. I take up what the right hon. Gentleman said, because we were told very much more than we should ever have got in this country in talking to defence chiefs. There were times when I really felt they ought not to have told us so much, but it certainly provided a very useful background in considering the defence of this country.
This is a bit of an as-you-were White Paper. To me, by far the most striking thing in it is the way it sets out, I think quite rightly, the enormous increase in Russian forces at sea and on land—the 1,500 ICBMs, the 60 operational ballistic firing submarines, the 300 missile submarines and the 90 divisions in Europe with another 129 Warsaw Pact and Russian divisions elsewhere. The whole picture appears to me to add up to a nuclear stalemate and also a conventional preponderance very much in favour of the Warsaw Pact countries.
When we come to look at the matter geographically, at the frontier of the Iron Curtain, it is still impossible not to be struck by the worry we have had for some years now about the great danger to the two flanks—the northern flank in Norway, which has been mentioned and which I shall speak about presently, and also the southern flank, because the straits in Turkey are obviously very difficult to defend. And surely there is the question of the vulnerability not only of the North German plain—I think that the hon. and learned Gentleman concentrated too much on that—but perhaps also of the upper Danube plain as well, which is good tank country.

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I do not suppose that many of us in this House imagine that a full-scale frontal attack is at all likely. What I think is a far greater danger now that we are at a conventional disadvantage is that we might get nibbling here and there.
Why is the Soviet Union continuing to build up its forces so rapidly? That is the question we should ask ourselves this afternoon. Is it because of their fear of China? I can well believe that they have something to be afraid of in this because from what knowledge I have of China I can never believe that it will give up for ever the old China provinces, such as the far eastern province. Nor can I believe that the Soviet Union would ever be willing to surrender them.
Or is it that the Russians have not really very much confidence in balanced force reduction? I do not know, but certainly I am glad to see that the Helsinki talks have gone as well as they have, although I should be more reassured if the Russian satellites had not fallen in so completely behind the Russians and if there had been some sign that the Brezhnev doctrine, which I believe to be so dangerous, was being abandoned.
But we are back to the basic fact, talking of the percentage of gross national product, that the Russians spend 11 per cent, and we spend 5·7 per cent. Even that distorts the fact that we spend a very much greater proportion of our 5·7 per cent.—we have to —on our manpower, and the Russians have a very much greater percentage of their 11 per cent. to spend on their weaponry.
The enlargement of the European Economic Community in these early stages has certainly not led to increased talk among either Ministers or parliamentarians about the defence problems of Europe. They are not discussed in the European Parliament. We are not allowed to discuss them in the Council of Europe, for the simple reason that it is against our statute because of the fact that neutrals take part there. It is really only in places such as the Defence Committee of WEU—which is rather under a cloud, as is the whole of WEU, at the moment, I suppose—that these discussions can take place. It is a great pity that the Council of Ministers of WEU, designed for this purpose, cannot discuss defence any more—not through
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this country's fault, I agree, but rather through the fault of France. If we are to retain WEU, we should work towards that.
It is strange that Norway, on the northern flank, having recently had a vote by referendum and decided not to join the Community, should now decide by a 56 per cent. vote in favour that it would like to come in. In fact, it cannot do so for another four years, so I am told. However, the fact that the Norwegians are out has had the byproduct of bringing their minds to take a little more interest in NATO. Nevertheless they still do not allow allied troops to be stationed permanently on their soil, neither do they allow atomic weapons to be there.
Those of us who have had an opportunity to visit Norway's troops in the north must have been struck by the impossibility of their task and the impossibility of reinforcements arriving in time, with their inadequate airfields and their situation facing a huge number of Russian divisions. I was a little surprised when my hon. Friend the Minister of State prayed in aid "Bulwark" and "Hermes" to put that situation right. If his information about the number of Russian divisions up there is the same as mine, I cannot believe that they are relevant.
Since the north of Norway is so important to us for the surveillance of the whole of the North Atlantic, one must have considerable anxiety about the situation there. Only recently we had a scare when an unknown submarine was detected in a Norwegian fjord but managed to escape without being identified or forced to surface.
I come now to the Royal Navy, and I quote a short passage from the supplement in the Economist:
"In thus deciding to run a multi-purpose Beet with multi-purpose ships, Britain has chosen a very ambitious course."
That criticism should be looked at seriously. The impression one gains from Annex C of the White Paper, with regard to both the Navy and our other Services, is that we have too many people spread about in penny packets. Although there is a reference in paragraph 15 to the Indian Ocean and our vigilance there, it is difficult to detect anything very much in that part of the world, where the Russian

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fleet is operating more and more, apart from the Beira patrol. It is significant also that the Russians are taking so much interest in exploring the sea bed round the Cape and in that area, in view of the way in which they are able to place reliance on submarines in their new fleet.
Are we placing enough emphasis on home defence? Are we not tending to look at defence a little too much from the point of view of our imperial past and the commitments which we have now almost entirely given up?
It seems curious that this nation, which developed the aircraft carrier, by inventing the angled deck, the mirror landing site and the steam catapult, should be contemplating giving up its last carrier at the very time when the Russians are building their first, after a great deal of observation of what we are doing. The north of Norway and the North Cape are certainly a place where an aircraft carrier would be of the greatest use.
Is the balance of the fleet correct now, or are we trying to do too much and not doing quite enough of anything? "Bulwark" and "Hermes" have both been adapted for the commando carrier rôle, a rôle described by my hon. Friend as unique. It is unique, perhaps, because other navies do not believe that that is the right way to spend the money and the manpower? I suggest that that kind of role belongs much more to the past.
One reads that Sea Kings are to be flown from "Blake" and "Tiger", those aquatic chameleons which have been cast in almost every role one can imagine. Twenty years ago they were very nearly scrapped, but they have gone on being changed from one role to another, without being suited to any of them because they were built as cruisers. We have left it to the new Soviet Navy to build the "Moskva" and the other special helicopter carrier—the name of which I forget—purpose-built and obviously much more efficient for carrying helicopters about the sea. I do not question the use of helicopters at sea today. What I do question is whether some of our money would not have been better spent on more submarines, entirely nuclear-powered, and more helicopter carriers rather than on frigates and ships which have been adapted such as "Bulwark" and "Hermes".
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Those of us who have had something to do with the Royal Navy for some years know that there is a kind of endemic disease among Controllers of the Navy. They love conversions. They always try to convert. I can remember great arguments about conversions, and in every case I can think of it would have been far better if the ship had been scrapped in the first place and a really modern one built instead. I very much hope that we can now get away from conversions.
We have a good forward-looking Controller now. I hope that we have some new designs. Let us move on to the forefront. The Royal Navy still has a great reputation worldwide. Wherever one travels, in Europe or in the New World, one finds that to be so. But we must stay in the forefront technically. It is not good enough to be undecided about whether we carry on patching up old ships for roles to which they are not fitted.
Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles: My hon. Friend should be fair to the Navy Board. It is not the board's fault that it patches up old ships. It is our fault in the House.
Mr. Wingfield Digby: I entirely agree, and I am disappointed that, under a Conservative Government, we have not been able to spend a little more on the Navy. We must look again at the shape of the fleet and consider whether it would be worth while altering course.
6.47 p.m.
Sir Geoffrey de Freitas: I am grateful to the hon. Member for Dorset, West (Mr. Wingfield Digby) for drawing our attention to the Russian forces. When he refers to the nuclear stalemate between East and West, I do not dissent, but I prefer to call it a nuclear balance. It may be a balance of terror, but it is a balance. Under the umbrella of that balance, we have an opportunity to work for détente, and it looks as though there is a possibility of it being achieved.
I was glad to hear the speech of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget). I am pleased to see him back after his illness. He was for some time a constituent of mine, and a loyal constituent, too. My hon. and learned Friend referred to a remark about the White Paper on Ireland which my

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right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition had made at Question Time. The point my right hon. Friend made was that there should be no rush of instant comment. That was his plea. The White Paper will not satisfy everyone—of course not—and the only chance it has of achieving anything will be spoiled if people, especially politicians, rush to the television and radio and make comments on it in the days immediately after publication. I know how important this is. I have in my constituency more people from Northern Ireland, because of the steelworks at Corby, than has any other constituency in Great Britain. I have been asked to comment on the White Paper within an hour of its coming out, and I have refused. I am sure that it would be wrong to make such instant comments. That was the point of my right hon. Friend's observation.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) raised the problem—it is a problem—of the Prime Minister's remark about our nuclear deterrent being held in trust for Europe. In the corresponding debate last year I asked a series of questions about this but received no answers. This year my right hon. Friend has asked a series of questions, and I too shall ask them. If this debate is not to degenerate further and further each year we must have answers to such important questions.
My right hon. Friend mentioned M. Debré. We must take account of the French elections. Anyone who has been in France recently knows that it was the arrogance of the Gaullists which made them so unpopular all over Europe. The Government will remain a Government of the Right, but they will become less nationalistic. I should like to think that M. Debré will not be Minister of Defence. but we must wait and see.
Although France will not be so nationalistic in future, and although I do not think she will want to get back into NATO I believe that she will want closer collaboration with some of her allies in NATO. I think that because of our nuclear power some French ministers will want us to help them find a role for their nuclear force. Because the Prime Minister has spoken about our nuclear weapons being held in trust for Europe there is wishful thinking amongst French politicians.
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But the military implications of such collaboration are very different from the kind of co-operation that we now have with our other allies in NATO.
Let us go back and see why we and the French developed nuclear weapons. We did so because we wanted a greater say in the decisions governing the use of the Western deterrent. Successive Governments in Britain feared that one day the climate of opinion in the United States would change and that under the MacMahon Act we would not have any more access to military nuclear information, while in France successive Governments did not believe the American deterrent to be credible.
Whatever the reason, the developments went ahead, and I believe that most people now recognise that if the French and British nuclear forces were merged we would merely annoy the Russians without achieving anything militarily. I do not use the word "annoy" in a teasing sense. The prospects of a nuclear war are so serious that neither the United States nor the Soviet Union want to have smaller Powers dabbling in it. The super-Powers, America and Russia, have achieved a delicate balance, and I do not want to disturb it.
If the Prime Minister's phrase "in trust for Europe" is defined as meaning a policy of working towards a European nuclear force, I cannot see how it fits into European politics at all. It has been obvious for some years that if it were to be truly European there would have to be some European political authority, and even the most ardent Europeans—and I am one of them—will acknowledge that that is a long way off. We must recognise that a Western European nuclear policy must follow, not precede, Western European integration.
If, on the other hand, the Prime Minister's phrase about its being held in trust for Europe merely means Franco-British nuclear co-operation, I believe that it would divide our NATO allies. I interrupted my right hon. Friend, and I apologise for doing so because the question was for the benches opposite. I do not see the Federal German Republic comfortably fitting into a community in which there is a Franco-British nuclear force.
Apart from the political problems, we are a law-abiding country and we must

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behave in a law-abiding way internationally. We are subject to certain obligations. For example, under Article 1 of the Non-Proliferation Treaty we are forbidden to transfer to France either nuclear weapons or physical control of them. Secondly, under bilateral agreements with the United States, we undertook not to pass on information and equipment which we received from them. Thirdly—and this was mentioned by my right hon. Friend—we cannot ignore the partial test ban treaty. The fact that France regularly violates it with her nuclear tests in the Pacific does not mean that we should condone such action. Incidentally, I was very disappointed at Question Time today to hear what the Prime Minister said on this.
I cannot speak for others, but it is my view that all those who have been interested in NATO and have spent hours explaining it to the public over the years should not forget that its purpose was to achieve a military balance between the Russians and the Americans. The success of NATO lies in the fact that we are able to have a détente, but how are we to retain that balance? How are we to make NATO more effective?
We are entering into a period during which there will be even more need than in the past for discussion and debate about NATO. The next generation does not see NATO as we do. Having been through the war, we see it as tremendously important to our defence, but we have to discuss and debate it. Are we, as Members of Parliament, satisfied that we have the machinery for that purpose? We still have no Standing Parliamentary Defence Committee with access to information from Government Departments. We have no facilities for cross-examining Ministers. Indeed, unlike many of our NATO allies, we have no system of cross-examining officers and officials.
At least as important as putting our own house in order and getting people in the country interested in NATO is the need to debate the problems with Members of Parliament of other countries. The hon. Member for Dorset, West referred to Western European Union. In this context the United States and Canada play such an important part that I should like to debate with Congressmen in the
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United States and with Members of Parliament in Canada our mutual defence problems in NATO.
For example I have found—as I am sure other have—that even important United States Senators and Congressmen have no idea of the size of Britain's defence contribution, which I need hardly remind the House is larger than that of any other ally of the United States. Ministers often refer to the possibility of the withdrawal of substantial American forces from Europe. United States Congressmen and Senators do not appreciate the effect that that would have on Europe. They argue as if a withdrawal would be a spur to greater effort by our Continental allies and by us, but that is not so. The prestige of the United States of America has been so enormous in the military world since the war that a withdrawal would be interpreted by the man in the street in Europe as a sign that the great American people believe that there is now no threat from Russia.
It is only recently, as a direct result of debates in the North Atlantic Assembly, that American Congressmen have begun to learn about some of the problems that worry us in Europe. There is one matter which worries nearly everybody on this side of the House, and it worries some hon. Gentlemen on the Government side too. That is our belief that the presence of Greece in NATO is, on balance, a liability rather than an asset. I believe that one has to weigh the military importance of the geographical position of Greece against the emotional fact that the Greek regime appears to many—and especially to younger people—as destroying the very basis of the NATO alliance. There is disagreement, but the fact that there is such a disagreement was never appreciated in the United States until we had several debates on it in the North Atlantic Assembly. They have gradually begun to realise this fact of life.
I believe that many misconceptions and genuine misunderstandings would be made much less likely if there were an official forum for debating the problems of the Alliance among Members of Parliament and Congressmen.
It is not always remembered how important American Senators and Congressmen are. Our chief job is to act as an

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electoral college, choose a Government and criticise them. But the day-to-day power of Congress and especially the Senate is enormous. It is with them that our duty lies. We should recognise this fact. We should recognise that we should try to encourage our Government to create the institutions which will enable us to bring our influence to bear on America in debate. That is the way in which they understand influence being brought to bear.
I am asking for an official Consultative Assembly of the North Atlantic Treaty on the lines of the Consultative Assembly of the Council of Europe, which many hon. Members know. The present unofficial assembly is much less effective than it should be considering the importance of those who attend. In Bonn in November there were nearly 20 American Senators. They have great power and importance in the world. They brought great influence to bear in this rather amateur organisation. The staff consists only of the Secretary-General, fortunately a highly-efficient man, and four or five people who support him.
The fact is that the British Government, after a very shaky start when the organisation was set up—I had something to do with it at its beginning in 1955—have become reconciled to it. The total cost to Britain is only a few thousand pounds a year. Yet there have been problems recently in getting the British Government to pay their share—less than £10,000; I do not know the exact figure—of the cost of the increasing expenses of running this small office in Brussels. We have been making ourselves look ridiculous. Fortunately, I am told, within the last week or so, Cabinet Ministers—let us just think of Cabinet Ministers being involved in making decisions on about £6,000 or £7,000—have decided that they should pay to help this organisation to run.
There should be no question of this situation arising. If Luxembourg and Iceland can follow the United States' example and pay up quickly, we should not be the odd man out.
It was never more important for European and North American parliamentarians to have a really effective forum. I want the Government to support the North Atlantic Assembly, and
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for the Whips to give it their blessing, for without that these bodies do not work efficiently. But I also ask the Government not only to support it but to seek to make it an official forum of NATO on the lines of the Consultative Assembly of the Council of Europe.
7.4 p.m.
Lieut.-Colonel Colin Mitchell: I am delighted to follow the fascinating speech of the right hon. Member for Kettering (Sir G. de Freitas). Having sat here since the debate began, I have been fortified by the opening line of the White Paper, which says
"For the Western Alliance 1973 will be a year of test and opportunity."
That is really the story of my life. It reads more like a popular Press daily horoscope. That line set the White Paper in the wrong context. Nevertheless, I agreed with my hon. Friend the Minister of State when he said that it conformed with the Government's policy over the last two and a half years in reversing what we consider were the worst aspects of the policy of the previous Administration by modest changes—they have been modest—in the size, equipment and deployment of the fighting Services, and changes in the procurement of arms and supplies.
I do not agree with those who have criticised the White Paper today for being un-straightforward. I think that the White Paper is straightforward. In some parts it is even candid. But it has avoided, as it did last year and the year previous to that—a fact upon which many of us have commented—the strategic debate in depth. It is that which seems to have occupied most of the highly intelligent comments which we have heard from both sides of the House.
The White Paper will embarrass no one. It will not embarrass the White House, the Kremlin or the EEC Commission. It is a document of détente, despite the increase in the budget of about £523 million; but it is a schizophrenic document. This is a dangerous way of testing the options for European security. I shall give my reasons for that statement.
Any White Paper dealing with defence must first tell the British Parliament and people what the Government think Russian aims are. We have mostly been talking about Russia. As someone who

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has been a soldier, I would say that Russian aims are fourfold.
First, the Russians want to contain China because they are frightened of the Chinese and they have the sight of China as a growing nuclear power and, indeed, now as a growing naval power. Second, they want to bring about the withdrawal of United States' forces from Europe. Third, they want to eclipse the United States as a world super-Power. Fourth—and this is probably the most controversial thing for the Opposition benches which I shall say—the Russians want to neutralise, to pacify and to disarm Western Europe so that Russia—I put in brackets the word "Communism"—can bring a dominant influence into Western Europe.
I know that these remarks are in no sense agreeable to some hon. Members who have spoken today. But it is a fact that the Russians are spending 11 per cent. of their gross national product on defence, and if one extends that, one finds that 40 per cent. of their economy is devoted to defence and related activity, and 25 per cent. of their resources. A nation devoting that amount of its money, time and energy must have some purpose, with clear and well-defined aims.
Despite this posture of détente, the Russians have been expanding their efforts all the time that the Strategic Arms Limitation Talks have been in progress. The American George Ball said the other day that the Russian elephant is now trying to be a whale at the same time. The Kremlin believes that time is on its side, as it always has. It is part of the Kremlin's philosophy. The Kremlin believe that, despite the possible attractions of an emerging consumer society in Russia, and despite the bleatings of the Russian intelligentsia, it can in the end subvert the West.
People may ask, how vulnerable is Europe? My answer is that it is very vulnerable. I believe that Europe has only a 50–50 chance of not being subverted by Communism. Unless we make very stringent efforts to avoid this, it will happen in the lifetime of many of us, and certainly in the lifetime of our children Détente is a monumental Trojan horse. It is opening a way to the Soviet subversion of Europe.
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When the Strategic Arms Limitation Talks started in 1969, I interpreted them as a device by which the United States would be paralysed. Three indisputable facts have arisen since the talks started. The first is that the Soviet missile force was increased by about 266 per cent. by 1971, half-way through the talks. The second fact is that this year the Soviet Fleet of Y-class submarines is a match for the United States Polaris force of 41 submarines. The third and even more frightening fact is that, according to some experts, by the end of 1973 the number of missiles in the Soviet ICBM armoury will be double that of the United States' forces.
Therefore, I repeat what many of us, including myself, have said in previous debates: NATO strategy, because it is always based on political rather than military considerations, is something which we shall always find incredibly controversial, particularly on the Government side of the House, where we are frightened of the expansion of Russian power.
We have argued today that our strategy is one of deterrence rather than defence. We find it even more difficult to follow the right course and also to be fairly critical of this White Paper. There are the problems of the vulnerability of the West in terms of its sealanes, oil supplies, subversion and the fact there is no common EEC foreign policy, which means that it is impossible to have a common EEC defence policy. We have discussed two other great imponderables, the first of which is the future of Anglo-French nuclear co-operation. Despite the excellent arguments of the right hon. Member for Kettering, without this there can be no long-term Western European defence. France outside NATO, possibly pursuing her aim of the leadership of Europe—despite what is said about her declining nationalism—is definitely against an integrated European defence system.
Another factor which has not so far come out has been the future of the German Army. I was in Germany three weeks ago and I returned with a feeling of concern and worry about the future of the Bundeswehr. It is our main land force in NATO but I believe—and I am not being impolite to the West German

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Government or Army when I say this—that it is operationally suspect in the NATO context because of the incredible political direction which seems to exist at every level in the Army.
I wonder whether this is not leading us to the far-sighted view that we shall eventually have to go for integrated land forces in Europe. This may be a thought ahead of its time and if it is I am glad to have registered it today.
What is the British strategy? At the moment it is presumably a stalling operation by my hon. and right hon. Friends on the Front Bench. If it is not, how, in the present state of European disarray, can defence be seen as anything other than the key to unification? Perhaps this explains two of the puzzles about the White Paper which have been evident on both sides.
First of all there is the decision over the successor to Polaris. I do not agree that we have not been given a great deal of evidence. Only last month the Expenditure Committee of this House published the report of an interview with Mr. Duchene of the International Institute for Strategic Studies. It was shown in that interview that there was an immediate choice for Britain and that it was vital that we took a decision at once. That was vital for the seaborne strategic nuclear missile system. We have to consider the consequence of maintaining Polaris, which is well explained, or the Poseidon alternative with or without the MIRV warheads or the later systems which are known as ULMS or Trident.
Secondly, although the Minister tried to explain the delay in commissioning the maritime seaborne Harriers, we are worried and want to know whether this is a question of the cost of development. If it is not to be developed to go into the new cruisers, what is the point of developing the cruisers?
I agree with the right hon. Member for Kettering on the need for a Select Committee on strategic options. This is so apparent when we have a White Paper so incredibly reticent about things of which we all know and about which we read in our daily papers. Yet we are not given the chance to discuss them in an academic and sensible way on the Floor of the House.
De we deter, defend or police? I think we probably do all three. The
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answer is that at the end of it all, the fighting Services have to supply security. Various general Service problems are brought out in the White Paper. Recruiting is rightly one of them. I reckon that we shall attract the best men into the Services only by acknowledging that it is a unique and wonderful way of life. The way to get men to join the Services is by being able to explain this to their parents. This is a matter of public relations and of a first-rate image of the Services, which I am sure we have.
There are aspects with which I want to deal relating to the gamble on the future of our air power in terms of adopting MRCA and the possible restrictions on the Jaguar. When the V-Bomber force and the Canberras are withdrawn our long-range manned strike capability is eliminated. The White Paper would have been improved if it had spelled out what the Jaguar aircraft will do and if it had told us something about the future family of aircraft. The "teeth versus tail argument", which is an across-the-board general Services argument, is well explained by the fact that 25 per cent. of the defence budget goes on hardware and research and development while the remaining 75 per cent. is spent on personnel and support, and all the other things which do not show up very much at the end of the day if one is trying to take on these vast forces on the other side or having to control a situation such as that existing in Ireland. This is the built-in seed which sows destruction unless we revert to a cheap conscript army like so many of our European allies.
I have said before that we shall have to bring conscription back. Everyone looks terribly gloomy on both sides of the House when I say this and even gloomier when they read it outside. This is a worthless alternative in the present ethos of society. Therefore we have to concentrate on the Regular forces and we shall have to go on spending money in that disproportionate ratio of 75 per cent. as against 25 per cent. for real hardware.
A lot of economies can be effected in the Services by pruning, particularly among staff. I am sure that we all recognise this. The pruning that can go on among the staffs of the three Services concerns an area in which we ought to operate through a Select Committee of

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this House. There should be a motto hanging above the heads of the admirals, generals and air marshals—with apologies to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Winchester (Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles) who I see stirring beneath me—which should say, "The best is the enemy of the good". So often we just put in that little extra which is unnecessary.
I want to deal with a few distinct problems of the Army. The Army in Europe is tactically unbalanced for either nuclear or quick conventional warfare. The demise of the tank as a battlefield weapon is something which the British have been as late to recognise as they were late to recognise the demise of the horse. We did not get in quick enough with the tank and we shall not get in quick enough in the next development, which is moving away from the leviathan, which the tank is on the battlefield, to re-equipping armoured regiments with helicopter gunships and anti-tank missiles. That is where the future of anti-tank warfare lies, not in the anti-tank tank. We have too much armour and conventional artillery and too few mortars, helicopters and infantrymen. That is speaking as a professional soldier and I do not apologise to the House for doing so.
The Army is now a police force-type Army. This will require a new look at the facts of life. We shall obviously have to retain that general capability for the type of rather academic situation we have talked about in terms of the details and the conventional forces available for the war we shall never fight in Europe, because it is impossible to fight it. The police force-type rôle is something we have to develop.
We have heard today of some unmentionable political subjects under the heading of counter-subversion.
The expansion of the TA stands out here. The hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) talked about Ireland, as he has done so well in previous debates. I could not have agreed with him more. The only lesson to be drawn from Ireland is that there is no compromise with terrorism. There never has been and never will be. Anyone who has had personal experience of dealing with this must realise that fact by now. All that he said—and I am sorry he has left the Chamber—was so right.
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There is no compromise with terrorism—one lives only to die at the hands of it.
As a reluctant European but one who tries to make things work, I say that it Great Britain as a sovereign Power has now been abandoned for the concept of Britain as a European power, let us go towards some sort of European unity on which our future obviously depends, bearing in mind that Europe is the object of a Russian softening-up process. If Europe is not a political reality, how can it become a military reality? The Government must in all fairness be seen to have a more virile attitude towards this strategic debate. It is the duty of their supporters as much as their opponents to insist that that is the case.
7.20 p.m.
Mr. Emlyn Hooson: Towards the close of his speech the hon. and gallant Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Lieut.-Col. Colin Mitchell) mentioned the police role of the Army and the need to develop this aspect. I want to pay my tribute to the way in which our forces have conducted themselves in their thankless task in Northern Ireland. I believe that there will be no solution by the use of the Army in Ireland because in my opinion it is for the Irish to solve the problem themselves, whether in Ulster or the Republic. That does not mean that I do not admire enormously the fine work done by the Army in carrying out what is an impossible task. I pay a particular tribute to those who are concerned with bomb disposal.
There is one thing that we might do which could help the morale of the forces. I do not believe that anyone joins the Army to fight in Northern Ireland and handle civilian subversion. When soldiers are killed or wounded compensation is not paid in the same way as it is in the case of those who are injured or killed in civilian life, for example on the roads. This is something which e should consider by way of capital payment.
There is only one basic defence need in our country and that is to be a firm member of the NATO alliance. All the rest pales into insignificance beside that fact. This debate has been to a degree sadly lacking in any sign of getting down to brass tacks about Government defence strategy. I agree with the right hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Pcart), who

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made an admirable speech. He elevated this debate to a bipartisan level in a way which has not been apparent from the Government Front Bench. I agree that the White Paper was both a frustrating and disappointing document.
Mr. W. E. Garrett: Is not the fact that it is such a disappointing debate so far due to the incompetence of the Minister of State in opening it? I thought he treated the House in a deplorable manner.
Mr. Hooson: I do not wish to add to that, save to repeat that I thought the right hon. Member for Workington elevated the debate.
We have two basic problems to face. Over the next few years there will be a substantial reduction of American conventional forces in Europe. There is no doubt about that. President Nixon has sent us his new ambassador to NATO, Mr. Donald Rumsfeld, a man very close to him and easily the youngest ambassador to go to Brussels on behalf of the United States. He is a man who has been in President Nixon's domestic Cabinet for four years.
I am certain that his role will be to bring all the pressure he can to bear on the other NATO allies to increase their share of the conventional defence. We ought to be establishing in debate here what will be our attitude to this pressure. There is no doubt in my mind that the American administration has no intention of totally withdrawing its nuclear and conventional forces from Europe. Here I disagree with the second of the four points which the hon. and gallant Member for Aberdeenshire, West suggested were part of Russian policy. I do not believe that the Soviet Union wishes the United States to withdraw from Europe. The Soviet Union prefers the stability which the United States provides in Europe.
I was in the State Department last year during a NATO military tour of the United States with two or three colleagues. I was given a briefing there which told me more about defence than was ever disclosed by our own Ministry. The Americans made it clear that bilateral balanced force reduction talks are much more important, in their view and
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in the Soviet Union's view, than the European security conference.
There is tremendous political pressure in the United States to bring conventional forces out of Europe. This pressure is being resisted by the United States Government, but President Nixon intends substantially to reduce American conventional forces and wants to do so by means of balanced force reductions with the Soviet Union. The real issue here is whether the withdrawal of Russian forces to the Siberian border is equivalent to the withdrawal of American troops across the Atlantic. I am certain that we and our NATO allies will be under pressure from the United States to increase our conventional forces.
The second issue with which I wish to deal is the nuclear problem. I have always been against a British nuclear deterrent. The very word "deterrent" means that one must have a massive deterrent if it is to make sense. The British nuclear weapon, together with the French nuclear weapon, makes up no more than the bee sting of President de Gaulle. This bee sting must be compared with the enormous power of the Soviet Union. The defence of Western Europe is not credible unless it is under a NATO and American nuclear umbrella. The Soviet Union, with problems of her own on the Chinese border, does not want insecurity behind her in Europe.
It is my view that Britain cannot afford politically or unilaterally to develop any idea of sharing with France a European deterrent. I agree with the right hon. Member for Kettering (Sir G. de Freitas) that this would be counter-productive and would split NATO down the middle. What would the Germans think if we were to pool our nuclear forces with France? We would annoy the Russians and also, I believe, the Americans. I do not think that the nuclear arm has any part to play in Western Europe's contribution to the NATO defence alliance.
It is of the utmost importance that we help maintain the United States within the NATO alliance and to make sure that she maintains conventional and nuclear forces in Europe even though I expect her to reduce her conventional forces. That should be the prime aim of our policy. We cannot afford to spend money on developing our nuclear arm but should concentrate our money on

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conventional defence. I am sure that these are the two basic needs for Britain, to make sure that we fulfil our role in NATO by developing our conventional forces and getting out of the nuclear race altogether.
We hear words bandied about the House which are quite meaningless. For example, we hear a great deal about the percentage of gross national product spent by Russia on her armed forces compared with our expenditure or that of the United States. This ignores the fact that the gross national product of the United States is immensely greater than that of the Soviet Union. What is in issue is comparison of the forces provided by the expenditure on either side.
We are faced in the world by two Leviathans, one of which, the Soviet Union, is under increasing pressure on her eastern borders. The only need for this country at the moment is to make sure that the alliance is in good shape and to persuade our European allies not to think of a European defence community but to play their full part under the NATO umbrella.
7.30 p.m.
Dame Joan Vickers: I was interested to hear the remarks made by the hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson) but I am not certain that I agreed with all he said. I wish to place on record my disagreement with the right hon. Member for Kettering (Sir G. de Freitas). I believe that it would be a great pity if Greece were not in NATO and that it would leave the Turks very vulnerable. I hope that the Government will not take the right hon. Gentleman's advice.
The fact that we have not had a world war is very much due to the doctrine of deterrence. The hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget) obviously did not consider the fact that the various nuclear weapons may neutralise the chance of war. He also spoke about nationalism. Unfortunately, in the last war nationalisation did not save France, Holland or Belgium. They collapsed very quickly, and this proves that one cannot just rely on nationalistic spirit.
I do not speak today in this debate merely because I represent Devonport, but mainly because I should like to
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comment on why so many hon. Members obviously question the need for an enlarged defence Estimate. I have had considerable experience of defence matters. I was for 14 months in Indonesia and spent over four years in Malaysia during a critical time, and I know exactly what can happen in such circumstances.
I agree with one aspect of the speech of the hon. and learned Member for Northampton and that is on the question of a curfew. I should like to see a curfew in Ulster. In Indonesia we had a curfew from six o'clock in the evening until six the next morning for some months and it was very effective. However, when I have raised this matter with the Government I have been told that a curfew is not possible in Ulster. But I know that it worked very well in Indonesia, and similar methods were adopted in Malaysia.
Most people associate Her Majesty's forces with war, but our history shows that the chief role of British forces has been to help to keep the peace and to maintain it. It is remarkable that so many men and women have given up their lives to go to make peace in various countries of the world—and I think, for example, of the Commonwealth. Perhaps pacifists in the House will recall that in the long course of Christendom the military career has been an honoured one. There have been saints with military careers. This goes back to St. Ignatius, the founder of the Jesuits, and also to St. Joan of Arc. Many people who have fought for their country have been made saints.
We have heard a great deal about the troops of other countries, but I believe that Britain has the finest, most couragous, best-trained and most patient forces in the world. This was seen when our forces were in Malaysia and in Cyprus, and I saw them in the confrontation in Borneo. We must make sure that we give them the equipment they need. It is unfair to send our forces overseas even in a peace-keeping rôle and not to provide them with the proper equipment. The money for which we ask in the name of defence is not wasted if it assists in keeping world peace.
We have heard a good deal about the money spent by the Soviet Union on her forces—namely, 11 per cent. of the Soviet GNP. But Mr. Kosygin admits that 25

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per cent. of Soviet resources are given over to defence, and a Soviet economist has said that some 40 per cent. of their resources are devoted to defence-related activities. In NATO the figure for the United Kingdom contribution is 5·3 per cent., for France and Germany 4·5 per cent., Denmark only 2·8 per cent., Canada 2·6 per cent. and Luxembourg 1·7 per cent. We in the United Kingdom spend more than other European nations because they rely very greatly on conscripts, and I believe that we are the only country in the alliance which does not rely on conscripts.
It is worrying that the number of conscientious objectors in Europe is increasing rapidly and this will make its forces even smaller. Only 3·4 per cent. of men of military age in the United Kingdom are in the Regular forces as opposed to 5·1 per cent. in France, 4·2 per cent. in Germany and 7·1 per cent, in Russia.
I wrote a letter to The Times in reply to the correspondence which appeared in that newspaper from the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun). I suggested that it was a
"curious argument that Britain should relate her defence expenditure to that of her allies rather than her potential enemies or her own security."
On the subject of average expenditure in NATO, I said that it must be remembered that NATO includes expenditure by Luxembourg, Denmark and Norway, whose populations respectively are 400,000, 5 million and 4 million. Since the population of the United Kingdom is 56 million, I suggest that we are not spending sums which are out of proportion with those spent by other European countries.
Moreover, I consider that Britain is more vulnerable than the other countries which I have mentioned because we are dependent on sea communications. Furthermore, we are spending £28 million in Ulster. The fairest way of getting a real understand of the amounts of money we spend on our forces is to examine the document "Defence Expenditure", Command 5245, in which recommendations were made relating to the division of expenditure. That document suggested in recommendation 5 that
"Consideration should be given to removing expenditure on health, married accommodation and, especially, education from the Defence Budget."
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I agree with this recommendation entirely, especially as so many of our forces are stationed in the United Kingdom.
I was amazed at the reasoning given in the observations made by the Ministry on that recommendation which simply do not seem realistic. On the question of the presentation of Votes and accounting, the Ministry said that the definition of the defence budget would remain unchanged even though it may not be regarded as part of defence. But the defence budget can be governed only by what the Treasury allows the Services to have. It does not matter which Department gets the money so long as we can be given a clearer picture of what is happening.
The Ministry's actual words were:
"It is proposed that, in future, while the definition of the defence budget would continue unchanged, the annual Statement on Defence Estimate would show how much expenditure on health, married accommodation and education services is included in the Defence Budget…"
I thought that was an odd reply, because either the Treasury will give the money or it will not to different Government Departments, but we can always discover the figure for ourselves. In fact the amount is about £296 million, so it does not need to be spelt out in detail. We should like to see a change to other Ministries so that one can see what is spent on hardware and what is spent in human terms. Therefore, I do not consider the Minister's reply on this topic to be satisfactory.
I should like to know when the Jarrett Committee is to report. A number of observations which have been made by the Expenditure Committee are designed to fulfil proposals that are expected when the Jarrett Committee reports—for example, in regard to a recommendation that one of the two Service hospitals in Cyprus should be closed. I mention this matter because it has been suggested in this debate that there could be considerable prunning, and the various suggestions which have been made do not seem to have been implemented.
It is essential for Britain to be able to pursue a role with her own forces, as was suggested in the Supplementary Statement on Defence Policy, 1970. I think that we are now beginning to do so. And we must now face the situation of what

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will happen when the United States withdraws her forces. This appears to be more likely because the Americans are hurt at their lack of success in Vietnam where they have lost so many men. I doubt whether they will want to go on sending troops overseas in large numbers to fight a war which is not for their own protection. We must establish and maintain a sound financial basis on which to carry out defence policy in the future. As was mentioned before, that is a realistic point of view. We could spend more on the Services if our gross national product was at a level of that of France or Germany.
I want to raise the question of the various organisations which deal with defence. There are NATO, WEU, the Eurogroup, the North Atlantic Alliance, CENTO, SEATO and so on. There must be a great deal of overlapping in all these organisations. I was impressed with what the right hon. Member for Kettering said about the North Atlantic Alliance because that alliance seems to involve the Americans more than any other organisation. Also, the Eurogroup has produced interesting documents such as the European Defence Improvement Programme. But in the case of WEU, although we send delegates there, there seems to be no action, and nobody ever seems to read the reports. The excellent report produced by my hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall) for the North Atlantic Organisation has been published and read widely.
In future, therefore, we must consider whether all these numerous organisations are needed to deal with defence. That, I suggest, should be one of our first considerations. The consideration we have been trying to put forward in WEU is that we should like to see similar weapons used by the British, the Dutch and the Americans. There are contingents from all three nations in Norway now and they do not have interchangeable weapons. This is unfortunate.
I do not intend to discuss the Navy today because we are to have a Navy debate, but I should like to ask my hon. Friend the Minister, as "Ark Royal" has been mentioned and as it is apparently due to die in 1977, how soon we will have the through-deck cruisers. I was very pleased to see today that a
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£7 million naval contract has been given for radio communication equipment for the new Type 21 frigates and Type 42 missile destroyers. This represents a great advance. But now that the equipment has been ordered, when will it be ready?
One of the subjects we have also discussed in WEU is how to decide between nations what type of ship should be built. The last time we discussed the subject it seemed to me that there were too many frigates and not enough submarines. As ships take such a long time to build this is one way in which matters could be facilitated, by having a definite planning programme. I raised this matter in WEU and the answer I was given was "We want every kind of ship we can get". However, I feel that we should have a programme for ships.
The Minister mentioned widows of troops killed in Ulster. I have raised several times the scandalous manner in which the pre-1950 widows have been treated. The Government have given pensions to the over-80s but the women about whom I am concerned were married when pay was very low. Some of their husbands were earning a shilling a day in those days, and these women brought up families. As a result of the old system of drafting from individual ports, instead of the present system of centralised drafting, 60 Devonport women were widows as a result of casualties on one ship, HMS "Courageous". There may not be many of these widows left but I would be grateful if the Minister, to whom I have written on the subject, could look into the matter because it is important.
I should now like to refer to paragraph 29 on page 8 of Command Paper 5231. The staff side of the Procurement and Executive Whitley Council and the trade union side of the Joint Industrial Council gave their reasons for opposing the reorganisation. I gather that the scientists and ancillary staff gave their reasons to the executive and they want to make it clear that they are not against rationalisation of defence and research establishments. They agreed with Mr. Rayner in paragraph 79 of the White Paper on Government Organisation for Defence Procurement and Civil Aerospace.

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In Command Paper 4641 it is stated that
"advantage should be taken, and taken quickly, of the opportunity to bring the defence research and development establishments, including the Atomic Weapons Research Establishment, under a single strong management and to give that management the task of rationalising them".
Procurement executives on 1st April 1972 stated they had only about seven months in which to consider reorganisation and they said, and I have sympathy with them, that this was insufficient time. The closure of three establishments and the compulsory transfer and perhaps the unemployment of 2,000 staff should be looked into further. I would like to ask my hon. Friend, therefore, whether the decision in paragraph 29 of the document we are discussing today could be deferred. This would make for a smoother working of the matter and perhaps, for example, there could be a second stage.
On recruits, I should like to put forward a suggestion for 16-year-olds. I was not really in favour of the raising of the school leaving age, because anyone who wished to stay on could have done so and a lot of young people did not want more academic training. Twenty per cent. of Service recruitment came from the 16-year-olds. If they are compelled to stay on at school it will mean they will have to have a new curriculum and I wonder whether thought could be given to providing cadet training for them. They could devote perhaps one or two days a week to cadet training instead of doing normal lessons. I know that a lot of young men have already been for tests and did well and wish to go into the Services, but they now have to wait another year and I do not know whether they will still want to join up when the time comes.
I should like now to deal with the fishing fleet. I should like to know what protection, if any, it will get from the Royal Navy. I do not see how we can go on as we are. I realise that it may be said that we are bullying a small country, but if we cannot come to a diplomatic arrangement after what has been said at the Hague Court, some other action must be taken. There are fishermen in Plymouth and I feel strongly about this matter.
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I should like to know what is happening in Malta. It is stated in Cmnd. 5231 at page 5, paragraph 14, that
"There are a number of matters relating to the operation of the agreement which are at present under discussion between the British and Malta Governments."
Perhaps we can be told what those matters are and whether agreement has been reached. There are a large number of Service personnel in my area and it is disturbing when the men go overseas, the women follow them and then they all have to come back. This is especially unsettling in regard to education for the children.
I should like to pay a special tribute to the Royal Marines, some of whom have been in Ulster four times, and to the Devon and Dorsets. There are many other excellent regiments, but I mention only those two because they come from the West Country.
7.49 p.m.
Mr. W. E. Garrett: This has been an unreal debate. It is the first time I have participated in a debate on defence during my time in the House. At the outset I should like to congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Peart). He did his best to raise the standard of the debate after the deplorable display by the Minister who opened. The Minister treated the House in a most flippant manner and while his music-hall style jokes seemed to get a few laughs from the Tory back benches, the content of the speech was deplorable. We could see the yawns on his own side after a while and it is a pity that he wasted 40 minutes of the time of the House in telling us nothing. Three of his colleagues will have an opportunity of speaking from the Front Bench in the remainder of this two-day debate and we hope that they will rectify the situation and give us some of the answers we have been seeking.
The Opposition's amendment makes too much reference to Europe and not enough to activities in other parts of the globe where we have commitments. I should have liked to see something added to bring this to the attention of the House. The Minister said that we still have commitments to both SEATO and CENTO. We do not know whether there is to be a reappraisal of these commitments, whether they are satisfactory, whether there is to

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be an extension or a reduction, or what additional role the various branches of the Armed Forces may play. We just had a bald statement. In view of our commitments in this sphere of operations—we have fewer now than a few years ago—I believe that we should have some sensible replies.
I have been impressed by the knowledge displayed by so many hon. Members about this important part of our activities. Although I disagree with some of the content of the speech by the hon. and gallant Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Lt.-Col. Colin Mitchell), may I say how much I admired his skill of presentation as an ex-professional soldier in getting his points across. He is to be congratulated.
I was also impressed by the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Sir G. de Freitas). But my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget), in his usual gloomy, horrific way, put the House into a state of despondency and silence. I wish that he would stop making such statements, because they do not bear any reality to the facts and they spread undue alarm not only in the House but throughout the country.
I should like to draw attention to the White Paper, page 10, paragraph 8, "Ships and Equipment." It will be noted that a contract is to be negotiated with Vickers for a new class of cruiser in 1973–74. I assume that that means Vickers, Barrow-in-Furness.
I should like to comment, as I have done over many years on all matters connected with armament work, that there are far too many negotiated contracts. I realise the difficulties that have been experienced. It is easy to argue in favour of a negotiated contract, but in this period of razor-edge competition within the United Kingdom's shipbuilding industry, in which at least four firms are in a position to compete, I think that tenders should have been submitted and an analysis made of the ultimate cost.
I hope we shall be told whether further orders are to be placed in 1974–75. I hope so, because from Annex D we see the names of the ships of Her Majesty's Fleet, their types and their current and, in some cases, reserve rôles for refit and conversion. Many of us follow the fortunes of these vessels. Some
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are very old indeed. A number which are in reserve should not be in reserve. They are clapped out and should be scrapped. Therefore, I hope that at some stage during this debate we shall be given an analysis of what the precise position will be in 1974–75.
We ought to have a statement on how many cruisers of the new class are to be constructed, where they are to be constructed and which companies will obtain the orders. I make no apology for mentioning in this connection the Swan Hunter Group on Tyneside. It has been building ships for the Royal Navy for about 150 years. The group has constructed some of the finest ships ever built. Many of them are still in the list in Annex D or on active service. We know that on both the north and south banks of the Tyne seven or eight vessels are being built for the Royal Navy, but they are not in the cruiser category. I should like an assurance that at least one of these new vessels will be reserved for the Swan Hunter Group. I do not want the Minister to be put off because that company is doing very well. Indeed, British shipbuilding generally is doing well. But Swan Hunter has one of the most expert collections of individuals who make up the staff concerned with Admiralty work. It also has the services of Newcastle University which has a school of naval architecture. It is important not only to Tyneside but to the general morale of the people in that part of the country that a cruiser of this new class should be built there. I hope that the Minister will give us some indication of the Government's thinking about this matter for the year 1974–75. If four or five vessels are to be built, clearly competition between four of the yards in the United Kingdom would be worth while.
I turn now to the question of recruits. In two eloquent speeches by hon. Gentlement opposite we heard pleas for good-quality recruits for the Armed Services. I agree, but they must have the right quality of equipment. It is no use getting bright young men to join the Royal Navy if they are to work with out-of-date equipment. There can be nothing more demoralising for a young recruit than to go to Plymouth to do his training on ships which are sometimes 25 years old. I have watched these ships limping in and out of Plymouth Sound. It is not

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a nice sight. I should like these personnel to be trained in superior types of vessels.
I always make short speeches, for which the House is grateful. On this occasion I shall pursue my usual practice and conclude by saying that it has been a short but, I hope, instructive speech for the Minister.
7.58 p.m.
Mr. Stanley R. McMaster: I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Wallsend (Mr. Garrett) because I share his interest in the Navy and particularly in shipping and shipbuilding. Some of our largest aircraft carriers which are now being phased out were built in my constituency. Therefore, I share many of the sentiments expressed by the hon. Gentleman about naval contracting. I should like to see Harland and Wolff again occupying a part of that shipbuilding programme, particularly in view of the employment which it would create in this troubled area of the United Kingdom and the part that that might play in helping to reduce tensions and other problems there.
I also intend to make a brief contribution to the debate. For that reason I will restrict my remarks to the situation in Northern Ireland which forms an important part of the White Paper and perhaps represents one of the most serious commitments of our Armed Forces today.
First, as I and my colleagues on both sides of the House have said in the past, we owe an enormous debt of gratitude to the Army. We have seen soldiers in our streets in their ordinary way performing acts of great valour, courage and heroism. I refer particularly to the bomb disposal squads who until three or four weeks ago had had a short period of respite but who are now facing another bomb campaign, which has been mounted in recent weeks and which tests them to their limit.
I should also like to say a word of praise to the soldiers who go out on patrol and are engaged on such duties as protecting children on their way to school. It is despicable that snipers should lie on roofs waiting for one soldier to come past, a soldier who, perhaps because he is occupied with seeing children safely into and out of their schools, is not fully on the alert. Such soldiers are picked off in daylight by snipers in a cowardly fashion,
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using telescopic sights. They do not have a chance.
It is because of the heroism of soldiers facing duties in these conditions that the House should not let this debate pass without expressing its gratitude for their work in trying to keep the peace in Northern Ireland. Unfortunately, a large number of soldiers have been killed. The Defence White Paper says in paragraph 18 that 179 soldiers and two marines have been killed since the beginning of the troubles in Ulster. Of this figure, 127 were killed last year.
That total of 127 killed last year follows all the steps which have been taken in Northern Ireland, both by the Government of Northern Ireland and by this House, to try to rectify the grievances in Ulster. They include the measures suggested by Lord Hunt—the disarming of the police, the disbanding of the B Specials, the setting up of special independent housing committees, and other measures right up to the dissolution of Stormont itself. The result of all these actions has been nothing but an escalation of the violence.
This leads one to ask how realistic is the statement in the White Paper which calls for a political initiative and which speaks of the Army's rôle as being that of winning the confidence of all sections of the community and persuading them to repudiate extremists in their midst, so that the political initiative towards a peaceful settlement should not be jeopardised. How realistic is it to imagine that some further political initiative, on top of all that has been done, can bring peace in Northern Ireland?
I listened with particular interest to the speech of the hon. and learned Member for Northamption (Mr. Paget). I know that his remarks fall rather harshly on the ears of the House, but when one thinks of the reaction in London last week when two bombs went off—just two—with the one unfortunate death, one realises how much people in Northern Ireland have been putting up with. We have had 2,500 bombs, and some 750 people have been killed. The total of deaths among the Army, the Ulster Defence Regiment, the police and the police reserves is 228, of whom all but two have been killed by IRA action. The Irish Republican Army has claimed this to be the case.

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Why then do we maintain the fiction that the role of the Army is to stand between the two sides in Northern Ireland? Why does the White Paper pretend, in speaking of extremists, that one is as bad as another? Can one really claim that when one side has killed, and has claimed to have killed, 226 soldiers in three years out of a total of 228? This is totally unreal and we should face up honestly and squarely to reality. Until we do, we shall never see peace in Northern Ireland.
Dealing with the rôle of the Army in Ulster, as I said, I do not imply any criticism at all of the ordinary soldier himself, who is performing his duty perfectly. But I am criticising my own Front Bench, the Government, the people who lay down the lines along which the Army must operate. The rôle of the Army is the rôle of a peace-keeping force, a police rôle, a rôle which does not allow it to take any initiative but permits it only to react to events.
This means that the Army cannot carry out a search of premises or of an area where soldiers are being killed every night. Areas like the Falls or the Ardoyne—very small, limited areas—are not searched unless some specific information is given to the Army. How can the Army combat terrorism in Northern Ireland with its hands tied behind its back in this way?
The history of events in Northern Ireland is indeed a sad one. We have had the plebiscite, which I and, I was pleased to see, a number of my colleagues went over to observe. One polling station was on the North Lodge road, part of my constituency that I know very well, because it is where the first soldier, Gunner Curtis, was shot. It has always been a stronghold of the Provisional IRA. I went down twice, once at 10 in the morning and once just before the station closed at 7.30 p.m. Only one couple had gone into that polling station to vote throughout the whole day. Just two votes out of several hundred or 1,000 who were entitled to vote.
That makes one realise the intimidation which is being practised in Ulster. I know that there was a boycott but what boycott is 100 per cent. without intimidation? We all know the cranks in our area, the people who would go
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in just to spoil their ballot papers. But no one dared to go near the polling station. This is the background to life in Northern Ireland—a background of fear, intimidation, and deliberate acts of terrorism, pursued quite deliberately by the Irish Republican Army and the Provisional IRA.
The right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey), who was responsible for defence under the last Labour Government when some of the political initiatives were taken, said during the Budget debate just a week ago that a large section of the community—he was referring to the trade unions—had reached the end of their tether. Their patience was exhausted, he said, and they had reached their limit. Well, really. The threshold of the patience of the trade unions must be very low. Think of the people in Northern Ireland, who have suffered over 750 dead and 7,000 injured—men, women and children killed, shot and blasted. They have been patient and must go on being patient. How long can one expect people to be patient under attacks like this?
With the death toll mounting, week by week, month by month, and year by year, in spite of all the political initiatives of this Government, some other solution must now be sought. This is the solution, I am afraid, which was mentioned by the hon. and learned Member for Northampton and by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Lieut.-Colonel Colin Mitchell). We cannot be soft with terrorists. We must go on to the offensive. First, we must define our enemy. Is it right that men who have planted so many bombs indiscriminately throughout the country, and who have murdered and continue to murder, may belong to a body which is accepted in Britain?
Is it right that the IRA should not be outlawed in this country? Is it right that it should be able to hold meetings in England and collect funds? Is it right that its members should be invited to appear on the BBC and other radio and television channels? Let us consider what the people in Northern Ireland think about that? We must define our enemy and then mount an all-out offensive against it.
It is not sufficient to ask soldiers to wait until they are shot at before they can

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react. The White Paper refers to the fact that during Operation Motorman there were some 27 battalions in Northern Ireland. They have now been reduced to 18. Is it not possible to bring in a few more battalions to patrol and thoroughly to search as the hon. and learned Member for Northampton suggested, the areas in which soldiers are continually being shot? They are clearly defined, and it is possible, by using curfews and other means, including modern methods of testing people's hands, such as paraffin tests, to discover whether such people have been handling explosives. It is possible to search out the enemy, and that must be done in a sudden and quick campaign. We must put in all the soldiers that we have in such a campaign.
The alternative is continuing slaughter before we finally take the action which I suggest. If we take it later, the casualties are likely to be heavier. The preparation of our enemy, the IRA, is improving all the time. It was not using rockets a year ago. It is now using armour-piercing rockets, which are modern Russian weapons. It has the most up-to-date explosives and modern rifles with telescopic sights. It has some rifles equipped with night-scopes. They are expensive and the soldiers have only a few at their disposal.
Time is not on our side in Northern Ireland. We must treat the situation as a wartime situation. The IRA has declared war on Britain. The result of the plebiscite last week shows clearly that the majority in Northern Ireland wish to retain the link with Britain. However, there is a small minority which wishes by force to impose its will on the majority. It must do so by force because it knows that it cannot do so by democratic means. We must engage it and defeat it, otherwise it will continue its campaign until there is a reaction in Northern Ireland which can degenerate only into civil war.
We must also win the propaganda war. Not enough attention is paid by the Ministry of Defence and the Army to that aspect of the campaign. It is interesting to note that the Army is now concerned with the existence of the UDA. It is perhaps surprising that that body did not come into existence earlier. It came into existence only a year ago, just after the initiative which suspended Stormont. Operation Motorman was mounted only
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after a peace treaty was negotiated with the IRA, which the IRA broke a few days later by a campaign which was conducted during one day's violent bombing in the centre of Belfast. Scores of explosions took place within minutes of one another. That led to Operation Motorman. The Army entered in force, it knocked down the barricades and opened up the so-called no-go areas.
For three years my hon. Friends and I suggested that the Army should not tolerate the existence of no-go areas in the United Kingdom. The answer which we received from our right hon. and hon. Friends on the Government Front Bench was always the same—namely, "We cannot knock down the barricades. We cannot send the Army into these areas because there will be too many casualties." What happened when the Army showed that it was determined to go in? There was not one casualty. It was the existence of the no-go areas which allowed the IRA to train, mount and build-up the campaign to its present level.
The Government must disabuse themselves and must rid themselves of the friction which appears in the White Paper, which says at Paragraph 17, page 6, that the Army's rôle in Northern Ireland is to assist the civil power. That is a total mis-statement of fact. We all remember that in 1969 the Army took over control of security in Northern Ireland. The GOC became chairman of the Security Committee. He controls not only his own force but the police. He has done so since 1969. The White Paper speaks of political initative. It speaks as if the army's rôle is to stand between the two sides in Northern Ireland.
We must rid ourselves of these fictions and phantasies. We must decide who our enemy is and mount an all-out attack upon him. If we do so, we will have the same success as the Army had during Operation Motorman. The majority of the minority population—what is sometimes called the Republican population and sometimes, although I do not like using the word, the Catholic population—would welcome that. It is fed up with the pressure put upon it by the IRA. It is fed up with the IRA members coming round every week and collecting money. It is fed up with the IRA making them lose their jobs and burning

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property. It is only when the Government and the Army take determined steps that we will end the present troubles in Northern Ireland.
8.18 p.m.
Mr. James Johnson: Hon. Members who make short speeches warm the cockles of my heart. I shall try to warm the cockles of my hon. Friends' hearts. I was warmed to the soles of my feet when listening to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Wallsend (Mr. Garrett). I intend to be just as pithy as he said he was. Like my hon. Friend, I have not taken part before in one of these debates. I do not wish to curdle anyone's blood in the way adopted by the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget).
I wish to give the Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Royal Navy and my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, West (Mr. Judd) a clear and stark message about what is happening off the shelf of the coast of Iceland. That is a subject which goes far wider than the interest of my constituents. I do not think that the Government are clear about how delicate and dangerous a situation it is. If one man is shot or killed, or if one of the tugs or fishing vessels goes down, it is my understanding that the Government will send in the Navy.
I wish to make my remarks in the context of Paragraph 21 on page 16 which, under the heading "Iceland", says,
"In addition to normal patrols to distant water fishing ground, frigates of the Fleet have been available since September 1972 in case they are needed to protect and assist British trawlermen in the disputed fishing grounds off Iceland."
When I turn over the page I see that the rest of the world is mentioned. There is the Caribbean, with ships of the Royal Navy, with detachments of Royal Marines, carrying out the Bahamas Patrol. There is Oman, which we can discount. There is the Beira Patrol, where we are doing what I believe is a fine job. It could be a better job. Indeed, it could be the finest job we could do if we did it a bit better. Then there is the Gulf, which Royal Navy ships and Royal Air Force aircraft have visited. The White Paper says that in Hong Kong Her Majesty's ships carried out guardship duties.
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How many frigates have we got? Many of us—and not only those of us from fishing ports—would like to know whether, in the sad event of protection being needed, the frigates would be available. They are now outside the 50-mile limit. I am not taking sides on this question of a so-called Imperialist nation, a big chap, bullying a small, developing nation. I do not wish to operate gunboat diplomacy. But if we have a navy, what is it supposed to be for? Apparently, it is not off Iceland for the purpose for which people think, and it is sheer hypocrisy and deluding the men out there to suggest that it is.
These men of ours have been going into the Arctic at a time when there is darkness for 20 or 21 hours a day. They see bearing down on them the Icelandic flagship, the "Aegir", which can be a fearsome sight. It does not display lights, which is contrary to international law. It bears down on these smaller 600 to 700-ton trawlers from Britain.
Last week, I put to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs a Question about the cutting of warps. It is no joke when a warp is cut. There are two warps to each trawl—and if one is cut it can whip back like a lash. A man aboard a German vessel had his leg amputated by one of these warps. A man could be decapitated by one. If both warps are cut, the whole gear goes and the vessel loses £2,000-worth of equipment. There have been 34 such incidents.
The Financial Times has reported on the amount of harassment going on. There is not a single skipper, bosun or deckhand in Hull, Grimsby, Fleetwood, Leith or Aberdeen who does not think that conditions will not get worse. The fleet has moved from the south-east, were it has been fishing, to the west. It is stationed there for a fortnight at the wish of the owners who, obviously, want to catch fish and make money.
But this means that the boats have moved to the doorstep of the capital city, Reykjavik. Iceland is a nation of 200,000 people. They are nationalist and vehement in their views. The Icelandic Government have said clearly what they intend to do. Without being too blunt about it, I point out that many of our boats are fishing outside the 12-mile limit

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but within the 50-mile limit and some of them must be seen from the land. This is a dangerous situation for our men and dangerous politically for the Government.
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs told us last week,
"If things get any worse, the Navy will have to intervene…In the last resort, I must impress upon the Icelandic Government that it may be necessary to use Her Majesty's Navy."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th March 1973; Vol. 852, c. 411.]
What is the Government's policy? Do these words mean what they say? If not, the Minister of State had better say so and not mislead men who I believe are the most courageous and intrepid of our people. To fish in the Arctic is no joke. Often there are waves 50 or 60 ft. high and the temperature can go down to 40 degrees below zero. These are men who need looking after. I say that to the hon. Gentleman very seriously, as do all my colleagues from the fishing ports.
The British Ambassador to Iceland, Mr. Mackenzie, whom I know, is a first-class man. He speaks Icelandic and knows the situation inside out. He is one of the best men we could have in the job. He has been called home and he will give a factual report and correct and intimate advice to the Secretary of State, so I hope that we are quite clear in our minds about what is possibly going to happen.
I say this to my right hon. and hon. Friends—if there were to be incidents and we were to have a siutation in which shots could be fired, this House would have to face a very serious situation. That is the message I want to give to the Minister and I hope that he will carry it to the Foreign Secretary and that the Government will think hard about the matter.
In its article, of which I believe every word, the Financial Times said:
"The fishing industry believes it was Iceland's tactics to halt the winter fishing programme, thus demoralising those from Britain seeking cod, plaice and haddock, within the contested 50-miles.
The British fleet is now facing a new wave of harassment, partly accounted for by political pressure, partly because the Icelandic gunboats have been able to return on station following their involvement in the Westmann Islands volcanic eruption rescue and clearing-up operation."
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I know the Westmann Islands, which are delightful. The Financial Times went on:
"…attitudes at sea have hardened…"
I do not like to find deckhands in Grimsby petitioning for the Navy to go in. I do not want the Navy to go in—make no mistake about that. I want a settlement if at all possible, and I hope that the Government, with Ambassador Mackenzie here, will get down to it and tell the House what steps they intend to take in the near future.
8.25 p.m.
Mr. R. Bonner Pink: I am sure that the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, West (Mr. James Johnson) will forgive me if I do not follow him on the highly specialised subject with which he dealt.
I think that the debate has taken a somewhat pessimistic view about Russia and our capacity to defend ourselves from her. I have faith in the NATO alliance and I have faith also in Europe that it will increase its will to defend itself. I am sure that we, now in Europe, can do much to lead this attitude. It seems to me also that many hon. Members are too inclined to think that we on our own can redress the balance. We cannot. We are already committed more than any other country in Western Europe, as has been pointed out, and I think that we are doing as much as we can now. But I think that we are not spending our resources in the best way.
I welcome the progress, outlined in the White Paper, of the East-West negotiations and the progress towards a reduction in nuclear pressure. But any progress in these terms must also mean that the balance between nuclear and conventional forces and arms will change. Those changes must particularly affect the Navy. Whether the Navy can look forward to a lesser nuclear threat or not will not affect it. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Dorset, West (Mr. Digby) who thinks that the balance of the Navy is wrong. The White Paper tells us Russia will complete six new missile submarines this year. Compare this with our own Polaris fleet—still only four; and one of those from now on is to be refitting, leaving only three operational. In effect, it means that only two could be at sea at any one time. With

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four we get two operational and if we had one more, for which I have been pleading for a long time, we could get three operational—a 50 per cent. increase in our operational nuclear fleet. Why are we not building that fifth?
Another factor is that those four ships we have are getting older and will need replacement. Why are we not thinking about those replacements which we need and shall need in the not-far-distant future? What of the carriers? We now have only one, "Ark Royal What on earth is the use of that? She is to be refitted this year and then we shall have no operational carrier at all. We might just as well throw the "Ark Royal" away now and have done with it. On the other hand, I am convinced that we need carriers, and rather than throwing away the "Ark Royal" we should be keeping her and add to our carrier fleet. If we need ships such as "Ark Royal" we should build them or perhaps buy them from America.
It seems to me that the RAF has convinced the Government it can meet all the air requirements without carriers. This is not my experience. I appreciate that aircraft have improved enormously since my time at sea, but their range is still restricted and the fleet needs air cover, and this can be provided only by a carrier as part of that fleet.
What of our other needs? The RAF operates from fixed bases and those bases abroad are held at the whim of some local politician. Carriers are mobile and can be deployed anywhere in the world. I know that carriers are extremely expensive, but has anyone costed them out in comparison with a RAF station, with its costly runways, buildings, quarters, schools, hospitals and all the tail that goes with an RAF station? Has anyone costed out an RAF station against the cost of a comparable carrier? Perhaps the Minister can tell us what the comparable costs are.
I do not believe we need or can afford the large carriers. We need the modern equivalent of the wartime Woolworth carriers. A year or two ago through-deck cruisers were talked about. Where are they now? They do not appear in this White Paper. All this White Paper says is that,
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"Subject to satisfactory negotiations the contract with Messrs. Vickers for the first of a new class of cruiser will be placed shortly."
What are these ships? Are they through-deck cruisers, in other words, carriers? Are they jump-jet ships or conventional ships? Perhaps the Minister will give us some details of their design.
On the other hand, the building programme is to some extent encouraging. We have four nuclear attack submarines, six guided missile destroyers and eight frigates now under construction or being ordered. They are to enter service by the end of 1977. Why does it take five years to build up a comparatively small fleet like this? Are we using the shipbuilding resources to the full? This has already been mentioned by one hon. Member opposite. In my own constituency Vosper-Thorneycroft, for example, have a small yard. They have a better and larger one at Southampton and another at Porchester. They have 18 major fast patrol boats under construction, being built for foreign navies, for export. Where are the boats for the Royal Navy? The White Paper says four are to be built—and only four are mentioned. That these boats are effective warships the Israelis know only too well. Why do not we have more of them?
I regret to note from the White Paper that recruitment to the Services is expected to be some 7,000 lower this year than last year—down nearly 20 per cent. —and also that further difficulties are expected in future through the raising of the school leaving age. I might remind the House that I urged that this school year, from the age of 15 to 16, could well have been spent in the Services, certainly so far as the Navy is concerned, and I am sorry that the Department of Education did not accept that proposal.
The re-engagement figures are disappointing, too, especially those at the end of the longer terms. The figures show that they drop from 93 per cent. at the end of 14 years to only 19 per cent. at the end of 22. Are these older men at the end of their long service being encouraged to re-engage?
In the wider context, I want to touch on Malta. I hope that the Government will be tough and explicit in the talks which are going on about the operation of the agreement made a year ago. I

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have a great regard for the Maltese people. I well remember their gallant fight in the dark days of the war. Our quarrel is not with the Maltese people. It is with their leader, Mr. Mintoff. He must somehow be brought to realise the facts of life.
The fact is that Malta today has a purely negative rôle. It is of virtually no value to us, and NATO's interest, especially that of the Italians, is to stop any potentially hostile power occupying it. The White Paper tells us that the Nimrod forces will be increased in size. The replacement of the Shackleton by the Nimrod, the military version of the Comet with a cruising speed of some 700 m.p.h., means a flying time of about five minutes between Sicily and Malta, and that is completely insignificant.
Obviously a detailed examination of the Navy's contribution to our defence will be the subject of a later debate next week. But the points that I have raised I consider to be vital in the whole of our defence structure, and I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister will give due weight to them.
8.37 p.m.
Mr. Frank Tomney: I do not intend to take up any of the detailed matters raised by the hon. Member for Portsmouth, South (Mr. Pink). I understand his constituency interests. I say only that in modern warfare, with air-to-surface missiles and other strategic missiles pinpointing targets, despite the hon. Gentleman's love for aircraft carriers, they are virtually sitting ducks. I say no more about that.
I did not intend to intervene in this debate. But I have been provoked. I always respond when I am provoked. I cannot help it. I have not spoken in a defence debate for several years. A long time ago I used to take part in defence and foreign affairs debates, but I have not done so now for some time.
Today we are dealing with a White Paper which is a verbal statement of accounts. It is not a White Paper in the true sense. A White Paper has to be based on strategy, and no one in the Western world knows what strategy is. We cannot know.
The debate has been conducted in an atmosphere of going back to where we came in. We came in a long time ago.
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It is rather like going into the cinema half way through the programme and only coming out after seeing the programme round again.
We came in first after the war in 1947 when we found that the Russians' diplomatic and strategic attitudes were not as friendly as we had hoped. We saw the startling collapse of the European defence community and the lack of will on the part of French politicians, who had taken no part in the war, to arrange for defence in conjunction with our other allies in Western Europe. Out of that NATO was born, under the guidance of Ernie Bevin, and from that time on there have been ups and downs and large expenditures by all countries. That is why the Opposition amendment is welcome to me, as any amendment of this kind would be to the Government of any country, because it seeks to reduce the most wasteful national product of forces' expenditure. This in total is a wasted product, but diplomacy and strategic requirements demand that we have these forces.
My mind goes back more than 22 years to the Berlin airlift. At that time, despite our troubles in Great Britain, with the nation's civilian houses almost bombed out of existence and with strict rationing, we undertook to ration bread in order to feed the people of West Berlin. It was a singularly courageous action by the British nation. Following the death of the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir Stafford Cripps, Hugh Gaitskell was appointed to the office. Such was the effort required on defence expenditure that we had to arrange a Budget which did not suit certain people. People resigned on the basis of charges on teeth and spectacles. Charges were imposed on the provision of teeth and spectacles to provide money for defence expenditure, which was estimated at £4,000 million—a tremendous amount of money in those days.
The resignation of the late Aneurin Bevan and other colleagues I had better not mention led to a virtual split-up of the united front of the Labour Party at that time. In one respect at the close of the examination Bevan proved to be correct. It is a poor politician who does not learn from experience, and I do not consider myself a poor politician. I know now, with hindsight, that the £4,000 million bill at that time was too heavy for

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the engineering industry of this country. The programme could not be carried out and should not have been entered in the Estimates. We might have had a continuance of the Labour Government had it not been so. But such was the state of panic in Europe at the formation of NATO that it was undertaken.
I intervened earlier tonight—and I must say that everyone ignores my reputation for tolerance and courtesy. I am the last person to annoy anybody, yet here is my right hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) almost ruining a beautiful friendship and getting terribly annoyed with me. The amendment calls, quite rightly, for the reduction of expenditure. He made a great patriotic speech. The amendment is welcome in calling for that reduction of expenditure, but he went on to grumble about the closure of specialist factories in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin (Mrs. Shirley Williams). I know those factories. They are highly specialised factories manufacturing components for ballistic missiles, and if there is one thing we must keep in mind it is that behind every modern army which operates anywhere in the world there must be the concomitant of a modern engineering industry.
That is why I intervened, to help my right hon. Friend, and he took it the wrong way—and it was only six o'clock at night. I am surprised at him. Does lie not know that I am naturally tolerant?
I did not mind that so much, but the hon. Member next to him, whom I do not even know—
Mr. John: Perhaps that is my hon. Friend's fault, not mine.
Mr. Tomney: He started charging about like a Welsh rugby forward who has not been selected. I thought he was going to pack in the pack and sling the ball at me. Now that he has been promoted to the first team for regular service, now that I recognise him, I will extend to him the tolerance and courtesy for which I am well known. I promise I will not annoy him in future.
To get back to the purpose and the guts of this argument, we have a situation which does not improve militarily with the years. We are confronted, as has
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been said in this debate today, by the Soviet Union, with the singleness of mind which has never lost its theme or threat throughout the whole of its existence. It has now entered into a different diplomatic, strategic and political phase. I think we have seen the last invasion by Soviet armed forces, in Hungary and Czechoslovakia. It is a great pity it had to happen and the Western world had to let it happen, but it did.
This means that a confrontation with strategic nuclear weapons is a nonstarter, and probably a confrontation with tactical nuclear weapons is a nonstarter also. That is to be hoped, because nobody wants a conflict on that scale, with all its consequences. But, having said that, this changes the whole strategic concept of the political power basis. It was only in Cuba that we saw a manifestation of the effect of nuclear forces, which forced the Russians back across the Atlantic. They were prepared at that time to try it on and install in Cuba intermediate ballistic missiles. They were met head on, not entirely by the political will of President Kennedy but by the political will of Dean Acheson, who was advising Kennedy. That was where the political will was, and as a result the Russians went home.
I believe that that was the last major confrontation we shall see in this part of the world. I do not know what will happen in the Far East. But the Vietnam war has clearly demonstrated that, unless the political will of the people is committed to any operation, the military will will not succeed. That is what was lacking in the whole Vietnam operation in the Far East.
In the new situation which we face, diplomats go back and forth, visiting China and the Soviet Union, and a new atmosphere is being created. We have not entered upon economic, political and diplomatic warfare. At this moment in history, the Americans can put the screw on the Russians to a great extent, but they are refusing to do so. Russia has had two terribly bad harvests, and the odds are that the next spring harvest will not materialise. Yet the Americans are prepared to sell from their strategic reserve wheat pile enough wheat to keep the Soviet Union going. The atmosphere is completely changed. This is what

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gives people a little hope that, having moved away from warlike confrontation, we are now in the era of economic and political confrontation.
The same is happening in China. We have a firm £200 million order, I believe, if we are prepared to undertake it, for jet aircraft for China. For strategic reasons, perhaps, we are not prepared to undertake it, or perhaps, because it is a new aircraft and so secret, people do not want to put it in any other nation's stock. But China is a long way from Great Britain, and we know that, in diplomatic terms, if we want to take the weight of Russia off our back we had better put the weight somewhere else. There are 1 million Russian troops standing along the western border of China, and China is concerned about it.
One principle has been proved in my experience, a principle which we must keep in mind as Western democrats. Aneurin Bevan stated it years ago in this Chamber, in what was probably the best speech he ever made. Communism, he said, cannot and will not succeed in any society which has a modern engineering-based civilisation. It has succeeded so far in the Soviet Union, and it will succeed in China for a time, but not for long in either of those civilisations. If we proceed on that basis, we can create a new atmosphere in diplomatic considerations.
Despite the failings of NATO—and they are manifest—NATO is the institution which we must keep in being and in which we must put our trust. I do not know what the future of NATO will be in Europe. I can understand the annoyance felt by this country, and probably by Western Germany, towards the French, but I think it probable that the French, with their brand of political philosophy, had thought the matter out more quickly than we did. They deliberately took out of NATO their entire contribution, naval, military and air, and they let other people, mainly ourselves, take care of the defence of Europe and carry the can to a great extent. We did it, to our great economic cost. I do not think that if France gets a nuclear weapon she will want to share it with anybody else. I do not think that a united nuclear weapon is on. I do not think that the Americans want France to have a nuclear weapon.
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My hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, West (Mr. Judd) and I have discussed this in WEU. The fewer fingers there are on the instrument, the better. The impetus must be through the chancellories and through economic, political and diplomatic channels. With the realisation that there is nuclear polarisation there is a balance of mutual terror, and within that balance nations live according to their own systems, hoping that their systems will triumph over all others. I have no doubt about the benefits of a Western world, with its free thought, culture, the exercise of a free conscience, and its higher living standards, which I am sure will triumph in the end. But we have a long way to go before we achieve that.
The remarkable thing is that the thinkers in the White House in Washington have learned to appreciate the problem. Had they not, why would they have their strategic wheat reserves available for the benefit of the Russian peasants? They could have let them starve. It was on, but they just did not do that. India had bought the Canadian wheat. All the Australian wheat stocks had gone to China. America was the only possible source of supply for Russia, and she responded. That tells me that something is unfolding which we should push along, and the sooner we push it along the better.
Now that my right hon. Friend the Member for Workington has taken on his new job of Shadow Defence Secretary, I promise not to intervene again in defence debates. For personal reasons, I have decided to put defence matters behind me. I have enough trouble without them. But I ask my right hon. Friend to believe that when I intervened it was for the best of reasons. I know quite a lot about scientific industry, having been employed in it, and how difficult it is to replace men once they are dispersed. That is what he was thinking about. That is why the Government had to support Rolls-Royce. They could not do otherwise. Most of the scientific and technical staff are in that industry. There are some things that one just has to do.
If, from now on, we are to proceed on the political and the strategic fronts in the way that has been outlined, I am prepared to say that I shall be very friendly towards China, for obvious

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political and diplomatic reasons. If we do that, we shall begin to turn the table the way that we want it to go.
8.53 p.m.
Mr. David Walder: It is not for me to criticise decisions of the Chair. A sentence of death, just like the five-minute spot, concentrates the mind marvellously, and this is the second year running that I have been in this curious position.
I have one comment to make to the hon. Member for Hammersmith, North (Mr. Tomney). I was in China last year. I think that it would be wrong to assume that because there is undoubted tension between China and Russia, therefore Russia of necessity will reduce her forces or her interests in Western Europe.
Having said that, I should like to come back to the debate which I confess I have found rather extraordinary. The right hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart)—he is not here now, but he was a moment ago—moved the Opposition amendment, but said nothing about its contents. The hon. and learned Member for Montgomery (Mr. Hooson) seemed to want to reverse what I thought had been the whole drift of defence policy over the last 25 years. Indeed, he would encourage us in Britain to increase our conventional forces, which I should have thought was an extraordinary thing to suggest in the face of the preponderance of conventional forces possessed by the Warsaw Pact countries. The hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun), of whom I expected a great deal, has disappeared.
It is inevitable that Oppositions concentrate on cost when they look at defence White Papers. It is fair to say that the two problems of cost and disarmament are the problems which face Western Europe and the United States of America. However, it would be wrong to take disarmament too far, in the sense that right hon. and hon. Members of the Opposition expect, perhaps, too much from détente in Europe.
We shall be moving into a difficult period for disarmament, because there are a number of technical reasons which will make that process increasingly difficult in the future. We shall be looking not so much at the quantity of armed
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forces and weaponry but at the quality. Even observation by satellite, though it can ascertain quantity, cannot ascertain quality. We are moving into a period when we shall have nuclear devices with what I would call multifarious heads, so the question is really one of the quality of the weapons, not so much the quantity. Obviously, on-site inspection will be resisted by the Russians. This is yet another difficulty in the way of what one would consider a complete and satisfactory disarmament process.
As regards the cost, we all know that there is a complete distinction between the position of the Warsaw Pact countries and our position. They spend their money on weaponry. We are forced to spend our money on the wages of men employed. A regular force such as we possess is more expensive than a conscript force, the sort of force employed by the Warsaw Pact countries. In Britain we are still faced with the question of attracting men and women into the forces and, perhaps even more important, of retaining them.
I see no possibility of the defence of this country getting cheaper in the future. It will become increasingly expensive if we are to maintain the sort of regular forces which we maintain at present. To take any other attitude would be over-optimistic and far too hopeful.
A number of my hon. Friends have mentioned the successor to Polaris. Whether or not that be Poseidon, it will clearly cost more. Obviously Governments hesitate to spend money on defence when there are many other things on which they can spend money which are more attractive and, if I may say so cynically, of more electoral advantage. Patently defence is not a subject which interests the public at present. They see on one side the all-too-real situation in Northern Ireland, and they look to Europe and see a situation which I do not think that they appreciate or understand.
The deterrence war is difficult to understand. It becomes unreal in the public mind. Nevertheless, we have a duty to make plain to the public the position of our defence forces and to advertise the tasks which they undertake.
We make a mistake in a debate such as this to concentrate entirely on the

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question of costs, as if our Armed Forces were a body of men who take State money and perform certain functions. It is not as simple as that. They perform arduous tasks, they make considerable sacrifices and they are subject to disciplines which do not affect the ordinary member of the public. It is very easy, by loose words in this Chamber to discourage members of the Armed Forces. It is equally difficult to make up the ground which we thereby lose.
9.2 p.m.
Mr. Leslie Huckfield: I am truly indebted to my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Mr. John) for allowing me to intrude upon his Front Bench time in the debate. I have promised him that I shall not take more than five minutes. Looking through the 1973 Statement on the Defence Estimates I am intrigued to know why we do not have more mention about the underwriting of the position of Gibraltar. The people of Gibraltar, many of whom are members of my union, the Transport and General Workers' Union, depend a great deal on the dockyard and the Royal Navy.
Confronted as they are by a Fascist regime in the north and a feudal regime in the south, the presence of the Royal Navy, the RAF Hunters and the infantry battalion is very comforting. I hope that in replying the Minister will be able to say something consoling and comforting to the people of Gibraltar.
The other point I wish to raise arises from paragraph 29 of the Estimates dealing with the rationalisation of the Ministry's research and development establishments. My hon. Friend the Member for Salford, West (Mr. Orme) and myself have today seen deputations from the Signals Research and Development Establishment at Christchurch and from the staff and trade union side at Pershore. I believe that my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd has also seen these deputations. I speak not as a constituency Member but as a member of a trade union which has many members in these establishments.
Their case is not that they want to pit Pershore against Farnborough or Christchurch against Pershore. Broadly speaking I feel that the phasing-out should be
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slowed down. If we look at the situation in the Worcestershire area it will be found that the unemployment figure there has been something like 7·8 per cent. compared with the national average of 6·9 per cent. In the Pershore establishment there are something like 500 staff, and to transfer 60 "mobiles" as they are called and 187 "industrials" to Farnborough would be much more expensive than the Department has forecast.
Mr. Wilkinson Mr. Wilkinson rose—
Mr. Huckfield: I would prefer not to give way because of the undertaking I have given.
Mr. Wilkinson: It is on the hon. Gentleman's figures.
Mr. Huckfield: I cannot give way. What estimate has the Department made of the hidden cost of this move, the cost of providing additional houses at Farnborough and additional schooling facilities? I hope that there has been a thorough-going investigation of the true and hidden costs of such a move.
What estimates have been made of the increased flying congestion in the Farnborough area? Irrespective of whether we build Maplin the increased congestion in the Farnborough area, from the projections of civil air traffic growth produced by the Civil Aviation Authority, leads me to conclude that night flying will have to be extended at Farnborough.
Perhaps the most worrying thing, and I have no wish to pit establishments against one another, is that if more work is transferred from Pershore to Farnborough, the latter will then have to be put out to private enterprise contract. How much more would go to private industry because of this? The real worry is that because Farnborough will be even more overloaded, much more work will have to go to private enterprise.
I do not want to pick on any establishment. I only want to stress the concern of those at Christchurch, Baldock, Per-shore and Malvern. I want to stress the concern of those people, their wives and families. They want a job, and I hope that the Department will look again at the question of rationalisation. Please slow the thing down, please guarantee the continued employment of these people.
9.5 p.m.
Mr. Brynmor John: I willingly gave way to my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Leslie Huck-field) because I knew of the points he wished to raise. I have had an opportunity of discussing his latter point with the men who came up from the establishment. One of the points they made, and it is unfortunately all too common in industrial relations nowadays, was that the consultation they were promised was more illusory than real. They feel that a case has not been made out to their satisfaction. We shall return to this subject when we debate the individual Services, so that the men concerned may feel that they have had justice, which is one of the functions of this House.
Almost every debate on the Services is inevitably a mixture of the general, the strategic and the particular. We have certainly talked a great deal about strategy. It is also an occasion for an amplification of points which are never made in the White Paper. Like so many before it, the White Paper is unsatisfactory in parts. What was far more unsatisfactory—although in view of the injunction of my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith, North (Mr. Tomney) I make this point as uncontentiously as possible—was the complete absence of a defence of the White Paper by the Minister of State.
Contrary to what the hon. Gentleman might have believed we are debating not our amendment but the White Paper. For him to have spent so little time on the White Paper and so much time on our amendment reveals the paucity of information at his disposal. He made the point that we were divided on defence. I do not think he would have made that statement had he known the sort of speeches that were about to be made by his hon. Friends. But let us concede that defence divides the parties: it is a division not only between parties but within them, and the sooner we recognise that fact the better.
Following the speech of the Minister of State and that of the hon. Member for Beckenham (Mr. Goodhart) there were speeches from the Conservative benches by, among others, the hon. and gallant Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Lt.-Col. Colin Mitchell) and the
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hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster), each of whom made fundamental criticisms of their own Front Bench. Another Conservative Member mentioned the policy on aircraft carriers. He may be right or wrong, but he certainly regarded the Government's policy as fundamentally wrong in keeping one aircraft carrier in isolation. If that proves anything, it proves that the Government side of the House, as well as the Opposition side, can be too sanguine about the divisions among its own ranks as well as about the divisions between hon. Members on this side of the House.
The underlying theme of the Defence White Paper—a document which envisages projected expenditure of £3,365 million—is the whole bearing of finance and whether too much is being spent on defence or whether, as some Conservative Members have argued, not enough is being spent. If the debate has shown anything, it is that the Minister did not do the country a service when he sought to suggest that we should not discuss this sort of finance and that somehow there was something disreputable in seeking to do so. But one of the tradtional functions of Parliament is the capacity to scrutinise, to check and, if necessary, to criticise. I believe that those of my hon. Friends who have said that too much money is being spent on defence—and I include my hon. Friend the Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun)—and also those who have said that too little is being spent have provided a valuable service to the country in bringing their views forward.
It is possible to make a case on merits for the increase both in money terms and in real terms for the Defence White Paper. I do not propose to swop quotations with the Minister, but he well knows that in the past he and his hon. Friends have said that defence expenditure could not he divorced from the current economic climate. It is not good enough to keep the legend on the defence budget down to only 13 lines. That is not my idea of the sort of advocacy that should be adopted in explaining an increase of 5·6 per cent. If a case is made for this expenditure, and if the Government believe in it, the House has a right to know the facts and to hear how they are defended.

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Both the inadequate legend and the extreme vagueness of Table 1 do not perform a proper service. There has been a 5·6 rise in real terms over the 1972–73 Estimate and we are entitled to ask in detail about the factors which have caused this increase. Although the Minister mentioned some of those factors, he did not go into sufficient detail. There has been an addition of ¼ per cent. of the GNP, and as recently as 23rd February 1972 the Minister spoke of 5½ per cent. as being the fair figure.
In trying to play the expenditure game the Minister has been less than fair. The Secretary of State for Defence has on a number of occasions said that our expenditure as a proportion of GNP was very much larger than defence expenditure in other European countries. Indeed, he said this in a debate only last year.
Mr. Ian Gilmour: It is true that the proportion of GNP devoted to defence is greater in this country, but the proportion per capita is smaller On a per capita basis, we spend the same as Holland, less than Norway and a great deal less than either Germany or France.*
Mr. John: Accepting the Minister's figure, and taking it as a proportion of GNP, I must tell him that many of us believe that the first line of defence in any country, and certainly in this country, is a just and compassionate society. Therefore, if excessive expenditure distorts that vision and is likely to damage the cause which we seek to defend, it is the proportion of GNP which is important and must he examined.
I should like to ask the Minister a number of questions. Will he give a breakdown of the figure of £49 million in Table 1? Will he say how much of that has been allocated to peace-keeping operations in Northern Ireland and how much to "Improved recruiting"? The noble Lord in another place said that £28 million of that was to be so allocated.
The Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Army (Mr. Peter Blaker): That is correct—£28 million is the right figure.
Mr. John: If that is so, I should like to ask about the increase represented by the other £21 million. The other figure
*See column 43, 19th March 1973.
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is mentioned under the heading "Improved recruiting". We have seen the figures and we note that there is a decline in two out of the three Services. In terms of the Royal Air Force it is a deliberate decline, but the decline in the Army is accidental and apparently outside Government control. What does the improved recruiting concept represent in this context? Does it mean improved terms and conditions, enhanced rates of pay, or what?
I wish to refer to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Wallsend (Mr. Garrett) concerning the placing of the cruiser order. I should like the Minister to be more specific about the item relating to regional aids. A figure it mentioned has been given and I should like to know whether it merely adjusts for inflation, whether it gives extra projects to the regions, if so where they are allocated, how many of them there are, how many jobs they will create and over what period the employment will be secured. These are in no sense hostile questions but are matters on which the House is entitled to answers. It is the sort of information singularly lacking in the Minister's opening remarks.
There is another aspect of expenditure upon which the Minister placed too little weight. The vital difference between Germany and Britain concerning defence is that in net terms Britain's defence expenditure, since forces are stationed abroad, causes a strain on the balance of payments. The figures are shown in both gross and net forms. I hope that the Minister will give an indication of how he sees the future as regards the cost of maintaining our forces in friendly countries.
One factor that we all understand is the mounting cost of our operation in Northern Ireland. None of us grudges the payment of extra money to maintain the forces there but we deplore the senseless barbarity which causes this to be necessary. We deplore the regular loss of British lives in that part of the British Isles. Our soldiers have conducted themselves magnificently in the most difficult conditions that can be imagined for a modern army. I believe that the strain of doing so is enormous for them.
As one hon. Member has said, the cost of being separated from one's patrol in

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Northern Ireland is not necessarily a "rocket" from the commanding officer, but a terrifying death. I believe that our young men out there in those conditions deserve the highest commendation from us. Unfortunately, as is the way of life, in many instances death in Northern Ireland no longer makes front page news but as reported appears on later pages.
The message that I hope our forces will take from this debate is that although they may have slipped in news value, they have not slipped in the genuine admiration of this House for their dignity and courage, nor has our sympathy for the dependents lessened in any way. They are doing what is primarily a temporary job because of the need to find a political solution. I heard one of my hon. Friends and at least two hon. Members on the Government side express views of the situation which were a negation of the Government's point of view. We all hope that the White Paper may give rise to an era of more friendly cooperation and more normal proceedings between the communities. That must be our earnest hope and also that of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, who has worked so hard to that end, and of all those of us in the House who have given him unstinted support.
But to say, as some Members have done, that the answer to the problem is to out-terrorise the terrorists, to prove our greater virility by taking our hostages and shooting them, is something I can only fundamentally repudiate from this Front Bench. Not only is it abhorrent and uncivilised but it is self-defeating. If we fight a community and we impose communal punishment, as was advocated, we punish the community. Since, according to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget), a community cannot be coerced, we are creating the very situation that makes the problem intractable. Therefore the suggestion is self-defeating. I say to the troops in Northern Ireland, on behalf of the Opposition, that they have our unfeigned admiration. The situation in Northern Ireland and elsewhere creates a problem which I touch upon only briefly because time will not permit a more thorough examination.
I hope that the incident of last Thursday was an isolated one but it strikes a
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chord which has been struck in this country about the government of the country. I hope that the Government will get clear at this stage that it is for politicians to make the political judgments about the use of forces and about the nature of threats. I say that because of a book which is much commended and has been highly publicised in the last year which seems to transgress the line between political judgments by the forces and military judgments. I hope, therefore, that we can be reassured that this point is firmly understood by the Government and that they have no desire, as we have no desire, to see the political soldiers free in this land again.
I should like to deal with another matter which touches on two points which have been made by the hon. Member for Plymouth, Devonport (Dame Joan Vickers) and by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Northampton. I refer to the problem posed by Northern Ireland postings of men who have families in Germany. I read in the Defence Estimates that there is to be an increase in hirings of one-third by the end of 1973–74. They will have almost doubled since 1971–72.
I had always understood that both sides of the House accepted that hirings were both an expensive and unsatisfactory way of providing accommodation. We have heard of hirings being found many miles away from the base where Servicemen are operating and of young wives and families being left in a foreign land friendless and bewildered. It is therefore somewhat to my surprise that I see no reference in the Defence Estimates to the work of the Housing Commandant Association, which was mentioned in the 1971 Estimates as having been set up, which was designed to help the families of Servicemen separated by the exigencies of the Service. I hope that the Minister will give us some information about how that association is now working, how it is staffed and whether, in view of the increase in lettings, it will be applied to Germany as well as to this country. We now know that Servicemen leave their families in Germany when they serve in Northern Ireland. It is a good argument for the association to be involved with families in this country. I hope that the Government will mention it.

1601
I hope too that the ex-gratia payments, which are very welcome, for the relatives of the deceased and badly injured in Northern Ireland will be further expanded during the debate. Naturally we welcome sums which, at £500 and £400 per annum, seem generous. All we ask is that the fact that they are ex-gratia payments does not mean that the recipients will be less favourably treated than those who come within the new pension scheme and will receive that sort of payment as of right. If we can have that assurance, I believe that the whole House will welcome the Government's initiative and generosity.
The Government rightly start their White Paper by stressing the difficulties of recruitment as a result mainly of the raising of the school leaving age. I believe that that caution is more than merited by the facts which have emerged during the last year. I know that the Royal Air Force has deliberately restricted its intake. Therefore, the reduction in recruiting drop in that Service is deliberate.
That is not true of the Army. I hope that the Government are not being complacent at what they might take to be the comparatively low percentage fall in recruitment for the Army. I ask them to look carefully at the figures. They show an overall drop of 13 per cent., but a 27 per cent. drop in adults and a 19 per cent. drop in young soldiers. The wastage rate among young soldiers, particularly among the youngest soldiers, means that the increase of 23 per cent. for apprentices and 10 per cent. for other juniors may make the figures not as good as they appear. The "Donaldson option" wastage rates in the Army are 34 per cent. in 1971 and a projected 34 per cent. for 1972.
I do not know whether those figures are yet definite, but they are certainly high and the investigation currently being carried out is thoroughly merited. I should like to know in what way this investigation will be carried out and when we may expect its results. If the school leaving age is to impose another problem on Army recruiting, this investigation into wastage assumes critical importance.
Put crudely, only a comparatively small fraction of the community is initially attracted to Service life. The majority of young men are not so attracted. It is vital therefore that we retain in the Ser
1602
vice all those who have that initial attraction for it. We cannot afford the loss of partially- or perhaps highly-trained soldiers. A wastage rate of 34 per cent. is certainly not satisfactory.
I am glad to see that the Nugent Committee on Defence Lands is expected to report soon. Having dealt with 500,000 acres, its task has been a mammoth one. It is now to release all those acres which are surplus to our Service requirements. I appeal to the Government that, if at all possible, that land should be kept in Government control, so that it can be developed in a balanced way to match both our housing needs and our environmental and amenity needs. I believe that public ownership of this land would produce a much better result. The claims of the former owners are now becoming very attenuated with the passage of time. As an absolute minimum, however, the Government should secure that the public has an undisputed right of access to that land, much of which is of outstanding natural beauty.
So we face the year 1973–74 with this twin problem. We must remain vigilant about the question of costs while at the same time, as our amendment says, not stinting our admiration or our reward for the high skill and competence of our forces. We believe that to increase expenditure at the expense of the economic and social base of this country might be a distorting factor which will lead our defences to be weakened in the long run.
We think that it is through co-operation in NATO and with matching contributions by our allies that we should seek to defend ourselves. We reject the views of those hon. Members opposite who believe that by unilaterally spending greater proportions of our GNP we would somehow secure stability. We shall never secure stability alone, but only in concert with our NATO allies. But we are proud of the quality and the professional skills of our forces, and their pay must be commensurate with that skill. The quality and the courage of the Army, the Navy and the Air Force is the admiration of all and the envy of many.
9.29 p.m.
The Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Army (Mr. Peter Blaker): This has been an interesting debate, characterised by many questions

1603
raised by hon. Members on both sides of the House, not least by the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Mr. John), who faced me with a veritable barrage at the very last moment. I fear that I shall not be able to answer all the questions because of the limits of time, but I will do my best to answer as many as I can. Others will no doubt be dealt with by my right hon. Friends on Monday, and we have the single Service debates still to come.
I can immediately answer two of the questions of the hon. Member for Pontypridd. He seemed to find it puzzling that we were planning to spend some £20 million more, mainly attributable to improved recruiting, when the recruiting figures had dropped off. The key factor which the hon. Gentleman has omitted to take into account is that when a recruit is taken on, he stays in. Therefore, he has to be paid not only for the year in which he is recruited but for subsequent years. The hon. Gentleman will find, if he looks at them, that the figures for the total size of the Army are higher than the year before.
The item dealing with regional aid has nothing to do with inflation. It is the consequence of the bringing forward of the shipbuilding programme, which was announced by my right hon. Friend the Minister of State quite a long time ago. It will benefit such places as Tyneside, the Clyde, Wallsend, and other places. There is also to be considered the building of the extra Nimrods and Buccaneers.
I welcomed the speech by the right hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart). I welcome his tribute to the forces in Northern Ireland, as I did the tribute which was paid to them by the hon. Member for Pontypridd. I welcome the right hon. Gentleman's support for NATO and his remarks that we should not be complacent. I welcome his remarks on the negotiations with the Warsaw bloc which he said should be based on a position of strength. What I found most interesting about his speech was that he did not say anything about the Opposition's amendment.
Mr. Peart: I hope that what I did say about the amendment will not be misinterpreted or forgotten. I spoke about inflation and the cost worry. I quoted the White Paper. It is not true to say that I did not deal with the
1604
amendment. Mentioned in the amendment are matters such as Northern Ireland, about which I spoke.
Mr. Blaker: That is an interesting intervention. The right hon. Gentleman says that the only parts of the amendment with which he dealt were inflation and Northern Ireland.
Mr. Peart: That is a silly argument.
Mr. Blaker: I listened carefully and I was anxious to know whether the right hon. Gentleman supported the Opposition's amendment. I confess to the House that at the end of his speech I was in as much doubt as I had been at the beginning. Nor did I hear very much about the amendment from the hon. Member for Pontypridd.
Every hon. Member who has spoken about Northern Ireland has rightly paid tribute to our security forces. I, too, with my responsibility for the Army, should like to add my word to what has been said. Many hon. Members have visited the forces in Northern Ireland. I find that it is a remarkable and humbling experience. They are living and operating in difficult conditions, although the conditions are better than they were a year ago. They have to undertake difficult duties. They work long and irregular hours at all times of the day and night. They work in dangerous conditions and in a situation which they must often regard as one of complete unreason. However, to their great credit, they know that they have a job that must be done, and they do it with skill, discipline, courage and, above all, self-control. There is no other Army in the world which could do such a job as well as our Army.
I remind the House that the security forces include not only the regular Army but the Ulster Defence Regiment. I shall not say a great deal about the UDR because we had a useful debate on the subject not long ago. It is easy for those of us who spend most of our time on this side of the Irish Sea to take for granted the activities of the UDR. That is largely because their activities are, generally speaking, although essential, unspectacular, conducting checks on hundreds of thousands of vehicles each month, guarding key points, patrolling in dark lanes of the countryside where they know that so many of their colleagues have been killed in similar conditions.

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I want to emphasise two aspects of the work of the security forces. One of their tasks is that of responding to and countering violence from whatever quarter. The Army is there to uphold the rule of law and not to differentiate between any religious or political groups—and that is one of the answers to the hon. and learned Member for Northampton (Mr. Paget), who unfortunately is not in his place. The security forces differentiate only between those who obey the law and those who break it. In the heated atmosphere of Northern Ireland, perhaps the clearest indication of the Army's impartiality is that it has been criticised and accused of bias by both sides.
I illustrate one aspect of its impartiality by quoting the figures for arms finds. During January and February, 117 firearms were seized in predominantly Catholic areas and 79 in predominantly Protestant areas, while nearly 7,000 rounds of ammunition were found in predominantly Catholic areas and 7,300 rounds in predominantly Protestant areas.
Secondly, I want to emphasise the Army's success from Operation Motorman last July until the end of last week. Arms finds have included 435 rifles, 353 pistols, 39 automatic weapons, more than 114,000 rounds of ammunition, more than 75,000 pounds of explosives, four rocket launchers, five rockets, three mortars and 14 mortar bombs. Although, regrettably, casualties both of the regular Army and the UDR continue, there are clear signs that we have been getting on top of the gunmen.
Mr. McMaster: I do not think my hon. Friend was in the Chamber when I spoke. Will he not admit that, of the 228 members of the Army and police who have been killed in Northern Ireland, 226 have been killed by the IRA, which has announced each day following a death that it was responsible? Is it not the case that only two of those killed died as a result of other action? Will my hon. Friend now abandon the fiction that the Army is keeping the peace between two warring groups? It is one group and one only that has killed over 99 per cent. of the soldiers and police killed, and admits that it has.
Mr. Blaker: I cannot vouch for my hon. Friend's figures but I repeat that the Army is there to see that the law is respected. I have just mentioned some of
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the figures of the Army's finds from both religious areas, and I think that is the answer to my hon. Friend.
Mr. McMaster: The IRA has done the killing.
Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles: My lion. Friend the Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster) has given remarkable statistics. Would my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State or his colleagues deny or confirm the figures which have been suggested?
Mr. Blaker: I cannot confirm or deny the figures off the cuff. I do not deny that the majority of the deaths have been caused by the IRA. Of course one cannot in the nature of things confirm who was responsible for a lot of the killings. One simply cannot answer the question put by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Winchester (Rear-Admiral Morgan-Giles).
I say this about the Army in Northern Ireland. It is difficult to find the words to express one's admiration for all that the troops are doing there, but I want to tell the House of some words spoken recently by the former Agent-General of New South Wales, who had spent a few days in Northern Ireland. He told me personally about his amazement at the great control with which our troops behaved despite danger and the constant provocation to which they are subjected. In a public speech he said,
"The Army may well have done a better job in such peculiar, bewildering and hateful circumstances, but if so history does not record it. They are carrying out an unpleasant task and thankless duty with a discipline and compassion that I am astonished and proud to have seen."
I could not put it better than that.
The House will agree that we owe it to our soldiers to make sure that the conditions they are living in are as tolerable as we can make them. We cannot do everything that we would like, largely for operational reasons. I am glad that the right hon. Member for Workington spoke of some of the improvements in accommodation which we have managed to achieve in the last year. A good deal has been achieved also with regard to the conditions of service. A number of measures are mentioned in the White Paper. Since then we have introduced special leave flights from Northern Ireland to Germany

1607
by RAF aircraft, more coin-operated telephone boxes—bringing the total to 183—an allowance of 26p per week for telephone calls to BAOR, more television sets and more live entertainment.
My hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Mr. Goodhart), in a very interesting speech, in which he devoted much time to the problem of the burden on the Regular forces involved in Northern Ireland, made a number of suggestions. He suggested that the objective should be a 12 months' interval between tours. I very much welcome that aim, but we have to be realistic and we have to give priority to meeting the needs of security as they are from time to time. My hon. Friend mentioned the Irish regiments. They are taking their share of unaccompanied service in the Army as a whole and in that way are helping in the problem of finding units for emergency tours.
We do not use those regiments in Northern Ireland, and perhaps I could briefly mention the reasons for that. It may not be generally known that Irish regiments have not been stationed in Northern Ireland since 1933 except for training, staging or ceremonial duties, and, as we know, they have, happily, not been caught out in the sectarian bitterness which is such a tragic feature of the situation. Despite the need to spread the load, we are quite sure that it would not be right to deploy them during the current emergency in Northern Ireland for reasons which I believe will be apparent to the House. I am not making a sectarian point. All Irish regiments are recruited from both religious groups in the community.
It has been argued that we need more UDR. I do not disagree, but the present strength of the UDR is still somewhat below our 10,000 target. I hope that we can get up to that level. We have not got there yet, but this is not for want of a desire to have extra members. My hon. Friend also mentioned a permanent element for the UDR. We have looked into this question a number of times. Perhaps it is not generally known that within the UDR there are a number of full-time posts for permanent staff for administrative duties, which relieve part-time members for other duties, including The guarding of the UDR armouries.
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There is room in the regiment for more people to join for such duties. But as for a full-time operational element, which is probably what my hon. Friend had in mind, not only would legislation be needed but its creation would not lead to a reduction in Regular force levels in Northern Ireland, which I believe was the point he had in mind.
With regard to the TAVR, he mentioned something about changing its conditions of service so that it could be of benefit in a Northern Ireland context. In fact, it has a role in the Army's order of battle as reinforcements for the Regular Army. That is the role which was specifically given to it by Parliament. The task of supporting the Regular Army in Northern Ireland has been given by Parliament to the UDR, and its terms of service, its recruitment, training and location are fitted for that task, and it is possible, according to a scheme which the Government introduced in 1971, for members of the TAVR, as individuals or groups, to transfer to the UDR with reserve rights to return to the TAVR in due course. The opportunity is there for members of the TAVR who wish to take it, and I should be glad if more of them were to do so.
I was asked about redundancies at the research and development establishments. The right hon. Gentleman raised this point in his speech, and I should like to give an answer on this important subject. In reply to the hon. Member for Ponty-pridd, I might say that consultation over this matter was extremely careful and thorough. The facts are that some 2,000 staff would be affected by the moves. Between 700 and 800 of these are mobile staff who would be offered employment at other research and development establishments. The remaining 1,300 are non-mobile but, if suitable and if they chose to move, many would be able to remain on our pay roll since the rationalisation would create nearly 900 new jobs in other establishments. For those who did not choose to move—and I accept that many older employees would be in this category—we should endeavour to find them employment in conjunction with other Government Departments some of which are substantial employers of labour in the areas affected.
During the three to five years which the process of deployment will occupy

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normal staff wastage will help reduce the size of the redundancy problem. Overall there will be some reduction in job opportunities. The object of the operation is to enable us to do the same job absorbing fewer resources.
Mr. Leslie Huckfield: May I press the hon. Gentleman on this point? What research is his Department doing into the hidden costs of these moves in terms of people having to find other houses, of the cost of additional schools and so on?
Mr. Blaker: The staff associations have brought up a range of matters like that, and I assure the hon. Gentleman that they have been examined very carefully. I am confident that by careful planning we can reduce the redundancy problem to manageable proportions.
The hon. and learned Member for Northampton asked about television for our forces in Germany. We should very much like to be able to introduce such a service as soon as possible. We recognise the factors which the hon. and learned Gentleman mentioned. It has been on our list of outstanding improvements in conditions of service for some time. But it would be a major project presenting considerable technical problems. I thought that the hon. and learned Gentleman's rough estimate of cost of under £1 million was pretty optimistic, according to studies that I have seen.
The present position is that studies are being undertaken to see whether a project is feasible. We are thinking in terms at the moment of a live project. The results are not yet available. I ought to add that even if the technical problems could be solved we should need to consider how the cost could be accommodated within limited financial resources likely to be available.
Mr. John Morris: This matter has been canvassed on and off for some years. May we have an assurance that in next year's White Paper there will be a definitive statement analysing the situation and saying what the Government intend to do about it?
Mr. Blaker: I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that I regard this as one of the most important problems on my desk at the moment and that I propose to push ahead with it with all possible vigour.
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I am afraid that I did not hear the speech of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, West (Mr. James Johnson) about the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. However, it has been reported to me. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that my right hon. Friend meant what he said.
Mr. James Johnson: What did he mean if he meant what he said? What did he say in that context?
Mr. Blaker: Perhaps I may leave the hon. Gentleman, if he is not satisfied, to pursue the matter further with my hon. Friend, the Under-Secretary of State for the Navy, who will be ready to deal with it on Wednesday.
Mr. Johnson: May I have an assurance that the right hon. Gentleman will mention it on Monday evening, assuming that he intends to intervene in the debate?
Mr. Blaker: The hon. Gentleman's remarks will certainly be drawn to the attention of the Minister who is winding up the debate.
I turn to the Opposition amendment.
Sir G. de Freitas: Will the hon. Gentleman deal with the questions that were put both last year and this year from both the Front Bench and from here about what the Prime Minister means to do about the British nuclear deterrent?
Mr. Blaker: I will not deal with that question now for reasons of time, but I will ask that those remarks be carefully looked at by my right hon. Friend on Monday.
Mr. Garrett Mr. Garrett rose—
Mr. Maker: I am not giving way any more. I think I have given way five times, and I must have some time to deal with the Opposition amendment, even if the Opposition do not want to hear about it, which is the clear impression I have had throughout the day. [An HON. MEMBER: "We want a whole speech on it."] If the Opposition put down an amendment, one assumes that it is meant to be taken seriously.
Mr. John rose—
Mr. Blaker: I will not give way. Hon. Gentlemen opposite seem to be very shy about the whole thing. I am not clear

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whether there has been one speech in favour of it, but at any rate it has been moved, although the right hon. Gentleman almost forgot to move it.
Mr. Peart: I hope Ministers will not be childish now. I think it is a really deplorable attitude. We have tried to put our case and I hope I put it sensibly, but we need answers to our questions. If there is to be a reply on Monday, well and good, but my right hon. Friend did press this matter a year ago.
Mr. Blaker: That may well be, but I have answered a good many questions and I have just replied to the right hon. Gentleman's intervention.
Turning, if I may, to the amendment, what is the purpose of putting down such an amendment? The Opposition amendment calls for urgent action to reduce our defence spending by a very substantial sum. It is a pretty ambiguously worded amendment, but it has been made perfectly clear by the acting leader of the Opposition, the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Frank Allaun)—
Mr. Ted Leadbitter: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Could you give us some advice on the procedural situation regarding the amendment put down by the Opposition? I understood that this was a two-day debate and that the amendment would be dealt with properly from the Front Bench at the end of the debate, thus giving the opportunity for hon. Members on this side to have their questions answered by the Government Front Bench spokesman.
Mr. Speaker: I can give the hon. Gentleman my advice at once. That is not a point of older. It has nothing to do with the Chair.
Mr. Blaker: Everything indicates how embarrassed hon. Gentlemen are about this whole question, but it is clear, as interpreted by the author of this line of thinking—the hon. Member for Salford, East—that it calls for a very substantial cut in defence spending. It also refers to the European Security Conference. There is nothing wrong with the European Security Conference. Indeed, my hon. Friend who opened the debate has made it clear that we on this side of the House welcome moves towards détente,
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as hon. Members opposite have declared they do. We welcome the success of Herr Brandt's Ostpolitik. We welcome the SALT negotiations. We are taking part in the negotiations for the MBFR talks and the Conference on Security in Europe, and we shall play an equally full part in the conferences themselves in the hope that something of benefit will come from them for the peace and stability of Europe. We have as a party a noble record in the field of arms control and, as one who was a member of our delegation to the signing of the nuclear test ban treaty, I pledge my own support for the soundly based principles of disarmament and arms control.
My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, West (Lieut.-Colonel Colin Mitchell) referred to détente as a Trojan horse. It depends very much on the state of mind and the standards with which one approaches such measures. The important thing is to approach them in a firm state of mind, not a flabby state of mind. The way to prepare for negotiations with the Russians is certainly not by way of an amendment of the kind put down by the Opposition, because what that amendment calls for is not mutual balanced force reductions but unilateral unbalanced force reductions. It calls on the British negotiators—
Mr. Peart: The hon. Gentleman has made a serious challenge. Where is the reference to unilateralism in the amendment?
Mr. Blaker: It calls for
"urgent action within the Alliance to bring our defence spending into line with that of our European allies."
It is perfectly clear from what has been said in other contexts and at the Labour Party conference what that means. [Hon. Members: "Rubbish."] It calls—
Sir G. de Freitas: Answer the questions.
Mr. Blaker:—in the words used by a celebrated former Labour Minister, for the British negotiators to go naked into the conference chamber.
Mr. Peart: Rubbish.
Mr. Blaker: If hon. Members will listen for a moment, I shall tell them what their amendment involves. If they are seeking to persuade the House that our expenditure on defence should be reduced to the

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European NATO average on a GNP basis, will they explain which items in our programme would be deleted to achieve the saving of £850 million which would be involved? Here are some figures. BAOR costs £354 million. NATO's fleet of destroyers and frigates costs £177 million. The RAF capability of strike, attack and reconnaissance costs £199 million. All those three together do not reach the figure required.
British cuts of that magnitude would of themselves leave serious holes in NATO's defences, and the effect of an example of that kind on the alliance would be positively catastrophic. We should be starting a landslide among our European allies which would destroy NATO's strategy of flexible response and leave us with no credible defence posture whatever. I remind the Opposition that the strategy of flexible response was worked out at a time when they were in power, and the right hon. Member for Leeds, East (Mr. Healey) played a notable part in working it out.
It should be made clear that we cannot go back. If the strategy of flexible response goes, as it inevitably would if the amendment were put into effect, nothing else is left. The tripwire strategy of John Foster Dulles no longer makes sense. We abandoned it for good reasons in 1968, because it had become incredible. Now, with effective nuclear parity between the super-Powers, any idea that the Americans would launch their strategic missiles in response to, say, a limited incursion into central Europe is ludicrous.
What effect would the right hon. Gentleman's amendment have in the United States Congress? Hon Members
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have referred to the pressures in Congress for a reduction in United States forces in Europe. What effect does the right hon. Gentleman think an amendment of this kind would have on American thinking?
Sir G. de Freitas: If they heard the hon. Gentleman's speech, it would be disastrous.
Mr. Blaker: Successful negotiations with the Russians demand two qualities in particular, firmness and patience, and the amendment shows neither of these. In past years, we have negotiated important agreements with the Russians, but only by dint of long hard slogging and patient determination, a determination on the part of the West to stick to what really matters, and a refusal to lower our guard prematurely. The last lines of the amendment, referring to the European Security Conference, show that the Opposition have deluded themselves and are trying to delude the nation into thinking that early results are likely from the MBFR conference and the European Security Conference, and that further reductions in addition to those referred to elsewhere in the amendment are likely before long.
When he was Secretary of State for Defence, the right hon. Member for Leeds, East defended his Government against an amendment in similar terms, and he warned his hon. Friends that, once we cut defence—
It being Ten o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.
Debate to be resumed tomorrow.

DEFENCE
  ADJOURNMENT
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.— [Mr. John Stradling Thomas.]

MR. THOMAS QUINN (SEDITION CHARGES)
10.0 p.m.
Mr. G. R. Strauss: The value of an Adjournment debate is that it enables a back-bench Member to bring before the House, and possibly through the Press before the country, apparent abuses by Government Departments, and it is particularly important that these things should be brought before the House when the civil liberties of a subject are involved, as they definitely are in the case which I want to put before the House this evening. Not only is an important issue involved, but part of my indictment is that the Government attempted to cover up the facts and to find an excuse for the action they took. That excuse was untrue or, in unparliamentary language, a lie.
The situation is simple. A constituent of mine, Mr. Thomas Quinn, is an accountant. He has lived in London for 26 years, he has not been in Ireland for all that time and he has no police record of any sort. He became involved in a body called the Northern Ireland Minority Defence Force Committee. That body appears to go about the country making noises and public gestures in defence of the Catholic minority in Northern Ireland. It is not doing anything effective of any sort but its members are trying to show that they are keen, active and militant. They have held meetings in various parts of the country, including Hyde Park, where no doubt inflammatory speeches have been made, but Mr. Quinn has spoken at none of these meetings and, therefore, he cannot be accused of making any inflammatory public speech.
For some reason which I find difficult to understand, that body considered it desirable to hold a propaganda meeting on 1st June last year in order to show I am not quite sure what but to act as
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a counter-measure to certain developments that were about to happen in Northern Ireland. It was a strange meeting to which journalists were summoned, so there was nothing private, secret or conspiratorial about it. They were summoned to a back room in a house at Cricklewood, and amongst those who attended was a representative of The Times to whom we are indebted for a description of what took place there.
Sitting behind a table there were eight or 10 men in hoods. They were trying to show, by means of a model on the table that they were discussing some military action concerning the city of Londonderry. A photograph was taken of them and published in The Times. On the table there were blocks of wood representing buildings in Londonderry.
According to The Times, the journalists were told:
"The men were discussing military tactics that could be used in fighting in the city of Londonderry"
and the Press officer there said:
"The men did not handle guns and explosives There had been some outdoor exercises such as map reading at such places as Hampstead Heath."
As a result of this bit of tomfoolery, the police got active. No doubt they had had their eye on this organisation for some time. On 4th June, three days afterwards, they arrested three of the men who had been in this back room at Cricklewood where this strange meeting had taken place. One of the people arrested was my constituent, Mr. Quinn. He was charged, when the matter came to court, with treason-felony, a most serious indictment which, I believe, has not been preferred against anyone since the war. But treason-felony was the indictment against Mr. Quinn. Later Mr. Quinn was charged with other indictments —sedition, treason and an offence against the Public Order Act. That was on 4th June.
Mr. Quinn was then kept in confinement, on remand in custody, for seven and a half months. On 30th June he was committed for trial, which came up at the Central Criminal Court on 15th January. Meanwhile application had been made on several occasions for bail but had been refused on every occasion on the understandable grounds that the magistrate, in

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one case, and the judge, in another case, considered that it was inappropriate.
"because of the seriousness of the offence, the likelihood of continuance of the offence, the possibility of further charges, and the possibility of the defendant leaving the country."
It was essentially because of the seriousness of the offence that Mr. Quinn was refused bail. As far as Mr. Quinn and I are aware, the only case against him is that he is a member of this organisation and attended that ridiculous meeting at the Cricklewood back room on 1st June.
It is understandable that the magistrate or judge, hearing that Mr. Quinn was being charged with an offence for which if found guilty he would have been liable to imprisonment for life—the offence is as serious as that—thought that it would be unwise to release him on bail because he might escape, possibly to Ireland. Therefore, from their point of view, in the circumstances it was not unreasonable, they believing that in the view of the prosecution a very grave offence had been committed, to keep the man in custody for this period. But when the matter came to court on 15th June, the indictment was dropped. The prosecution quashed the charge. The man had been in custody for seven and a half months on a charge which was never pursued when it came to court.
This is very serious. A man's liberty was taken away for this period because of a charge which the Director of Public Prosecutions presumably did not have sufficient evidence to pursue. If the authorities charge a man on such an indictment, they should pursue it or release him at an early date. They should not keep him in prison for seven and a half months and then, when the matter comes to court, simply say "We are not pursuing this." And all the other charges against him were withdrawn except one—the offence against the Public Order Act. For that he was given a suspended prison sentence.
This is a very serious and regrettable state of affairs. It should not have happened and it is right to expose it.
That is not, however, the end of this strange story. There followed an attempt by the legal departments, the Director of Public Prosecutions and the AttorneyGeneral—who was not personally respon-
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sible but accepted the information given to him by the department of the Director of Public Prosecutions at the time—to cover up this case.
Wanting to pursue this matter further, I asked the Attorney-General on 26th February.
"why the prosecution applied to have the charge of treason and felony against Mr. Thomas Quinn quashed, after he had spent many months in prison on remand."
The reply was:
"This prosecution arose following publication in June 1972 of photographs in the Press of men in masks over a training layout table during a Press Conference given by an organisation called Northern Ireland Minority Defence Force."
Those are the facts which I have put before the House, and they were apparently the sole grounds for making this charge.
The Attorney-General went on to say:
"Two counts of treason felony were included in the indictment by senior Treasury counsel together with other counts of seditious conspiracy, uttering seditious words and offences under the Public Order Act, because the evidence indicated that Mr. Quinn, and two others, had been engaged in activities which justified those counts."
Here is the key sentence:
"When senior Treasury counsel at the trial was informed that the defendants intended to plead guilty to other counts, he applied for the counts of treason-felony to be quashed and the accused were sentenced on those other counts."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th February 1973; Vol 851, c. 282–3.]
If it were true that the Treasury counsel had heard that the accused were prepared to plead guilty to minor offences there might be a reasonable case there. It frequently happens in court that the prosecution is prepared to withdraw a major charge under those circumstances. But it is completely untrue in this case.
Treasury counsel withdrew the charge before any indication had been given to him, before he had inquired, before anything had been said about the defendants pleading guilty or not guilty to the other charges. That excuse, presumably given from the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions and passed by the Attorney-General to the House, was wholly false. The Attorney-General must take full responsibility for that although I naturally do not accuse him of deliberately misleading the House.
I wrote to the Attorney-General telling him that according to my information

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this was not true. I pointed out the facts. He said he would look into the matter further. I have had a letter from him from which I will quote one paragraph. He said:
"I am however now told that when he"
that is, the senior Treasury counsel,
"decided that the prosecution would not proceed on these counts, he did not actually know that the defendants intended to plead guilty to other counts."
That is a complete withdrawal from the first letter. He went on to say:
"He considered that if he applied to quash, there would then be no question of appearing to have influenced the defendants' pleas to the other counts in the indictment."
That seems to be absolute nonsense. The Attorney-General made one excuse which was not true and he now makes another which does not make sense. It seems to me as a layman that the Treasury counsel did not proceed with the indictment because he had not got sufficient grounds for doing so.
I maintain that if a man is charged with a serious offence and is kept in prison for seven and a half months, the Crown should either continue with that prosecution and bring the man to justice or at an early date withdraw the charge and allow an application for bail to be considered.
When the matter came up at the Central Criminal Court and the papers were considered by Mr. Justice Park he said before sentencing the prisoners to suspended sentences that the group was:
"a small and ineffectual body presenting no threat to the security of this country."
So Mr. Quinn—and I am not saying anything about the other two people because I do not represent them here, although I imagine their cases are similar to that of my constituent—has wrongly suffered seven and a half months in prison on strict security as a result of the actions of the Director of Public Prosecutions.
Equally serious is that the explanations given to the House by the Attorney-General was plainly a false one.
It is to prevent the same sort of thing ever happening again that I raise this matter tonight. I hope we will receive from the Solicitor-General some explanation why all this happened and how it
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happened, and that an assurance will be given in the interests of British justice that it will never happen again.
10.15 p.m.
Mr. Marcus Lipton: I know Mr. Thomas Quinn. Before he became a constituent of my right hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss) he was one of my constituents. I was amazed to receive a letter from him in Brixton Prison saying that he was facing this charge and had been remanded in custody for this length of time. It is amazing that a charge of this kind should have been maintained for so long against him. I would like the Solicitor-General to tell us on what date it was decided that there was no case to answer and that he would not be prosecuted on the treason felony charge. When and why was it decided not to proceed with this serious charge?
There was no question of any kind of a deal. There was no question of Mr. Quinn not being prosecuted on the treason felony charge if he pleaded to some less serious charge. There was no such understanding or undertaking.
10.18 p.m.
The Solicitor-General (Sir Michael Havers): I very much regret that the right hon. Member for Vauxhall (Mr. Strauss) saw fit to make such sweeping allegations on the lines that the Government had given statements full of untruths and that the explanations were a lie. This is a matter in which, had he made further inquiries, they would perhaps have convinced him that what he said was unjustified.
I hope the House will bear with me when I give the background. The picture painted by the right hon. Gentleman bears no relation to the truth. The indictment against the three men, of whom the right hon. Gentleman's constituent was one, in addition to alleging counts of treason felony alleged counts of uttering seditious words, conspiracy for sedition and an offence against the Public Order Act. In regard to the indictment —and it is impossible to take one man in isolation because one has to look at all three—one man, Callinan, pleaded guilty to most of the counts involving sedition. The right hon. Gentleman's constituent pleaded guilty to a serious offence, the count in the indictment under

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the Public Order Act, and it is right that the House should know what it was.
That count alleged against Quinn and a man called Callinan and a man called Marcantonio that
"On divers days between 4th March 1972 and 4th June 1972 within the jurisdiction of the Central Criminal Court they took part in the control and managemnt of an association of persons called the Northern Ireland Minority Defence Force which was organised and trained for the purpose of enabling the said persons to be employed for the use or display of physical force in promoting political objects."
Quinn pleaded guilty to that count, Marcantonio pleaded guilty to two other counts involving seditious words, and Callinan more than that.
When it is said that the explanation given by the Government is untruthful, let me give the House the facts. On 20th February at Hyde Park Corner, Callinan told those who listened to him—and there were a number—that this association, the Northern Ireland Minority Defence Association, had been formed to kill British troops in Northern Ireland and cause civil war; that the purpose of the meeting was to recruit men of all groups who were prepared to do military training and to travel to Northern Ireland to kill Broadmoor psychopaths and drive Ian Paisley and Brian Faulkner into the sea. Callinan invited volunteers to go for guns in Northern Ireland, to train them to a very high standard and equip them for the civil war that would start later that year and invited volunteers to come forward. And a number did and signed up.
On 19th March at the same place Callinan said there was no shortage of gelignite and young men to carry it to rip Belfast and Derry to the ground. Callinan said:
"Girls are now taught to use gelignite. We shall rip down every structure in Belfast".
And he invited those who listened to him at Hyde Park Corner to
"Be a man get a gun and play your part".
He went on:
"We are training volunteers.… There are guns in Ireland and we will take them from the free state army.… Stand up and fight … We are a para-military force".
There was a Press interview of which the right hon. Gentleman spoke. The right hon. Gentleman said that Quinn spoke at no meeting and he mentioned
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the word "tomfoolery". He was there on that occasion at the end of May as the chairman of this para-military association. He had taken part in a number of meetings designed to raise forces in this country to go to Ireland and bear arms against Her Majesty and against British forces in Northern Ireland.
Let us have no nonsense about it being a bit of tomfoolery. He was chairman of this association and he took part in the meeting. Eight masked men stood around a table and there were maps and a layout said to be an area of Derry. A discussion of military tactics took place which could be used in fighting in Londonderry.
This right hon. Gentleman's constituent, who apparently had played so innocent a part, told those Press reporters who were present, after posing for Press photographers, that 500 trained fighters were ready to move to Northern Ireland if civil war broke out. He said that there were 800 paid-up members of the association. He said that it was not part of the IRA but was primarily in favour of the provisionals. He said that there were three units each of about 60 men in London and three more partial units in London. He said that there were other units in Birmingham, Bedford, Luton and Bristol and that further units were being formed in Manchester and Liverpool. He said that the men in masks were two platoons of his association undergoing a training session. Photographs were taken and they were published in The Times on 3rd June—a newspaper which circulates widely not only in England, Wales and Scotland, but also in Northern Ireland.
Certainly the police officers who investigated this matter had the strong impression that this was no piece of tomfoolery but a serious matter. Indeed, the history of the tragedy which has existed in Northern Ireland for the past four years has demonstrated time after time that quite small units, including teenagers, are involved. They are not kids playing at war. They use guns, explosives and are just as dangerous as—if not more dangerous than—those whom one would expect to behave in such a manner.
Let us look at the history of what went on. Over that year in 1972 there had been increasing violence in Northern Ireland. On 22nd February there was

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the explosion at Aldershot at which the Roman Catholic padre and six civilians were killed. On 5th March the Ulster death toll went up to a peak figure of 10 persons in a week. On 24th March there was the announcement of direct rule. On 16th April Ulster explosions rose to a new peak of 51 in one week. On 14th May Ulster deaths again reached 10 and on 3rd June this report appeared in the paper.
I wonder whether anyone in this House or outside can imagine the reaction in Northern Ireland when The Times published that grotesque photograph of these masked men around a table which apparently represented Londonderry, apparently being trained to deal with Londonderry by the force set up by the chairman Quinn who was subsequently, within two or three days, charged with, among other offences, that of treason-felony.
It is right that the House and everybody should know that there has always been ample evidence to support that charge. The offence charged fitted precisely the words of the Statute. There was clear jurisdiction where overt arts such as those committed by Quinn and the others had been carried out in this country. But the intended raising of arms and armies was to be carried out in Northern Ireland. These overt acts were committed in this country and the reason that the treason-felony charge was laid at that time, was, among other reasons, that it was not clear, because this was not a usual case, whether the other offences of sedition would have jurisdiction in English courts, the sedition being to commit offences in Northern Ireland.
Mr. Clinton Davis: What the Solicitor-General said bears no relationship to what the learned judge said—that this was a small and ineffectual body presenting no threat to the security of this country.
The Solicitor-General: How easy it is to say that. It does not mean that that is the only view that may be taken about it. Those who were concerned closely with it, those who have read all the papers, do not necessarily share the view of the judge in this case. I for my part, having seen the photograph at a
1624
time when the violence, the deaths, the shootings and the explosions in Northern Ireland were mounting day by day, believe that to have the photograph published in The Times showing a lot of weird men wearing masks standing round a sand table, which they said was meant to portray Londonderry where they intended to carry out violent acts against Her Majesty the Queen and the Forces of the Crown, was a situation in which the people in Northern Ireland could do nothing but be upset by what they read.
The reason that the charge eventually was not carried through was that it became apparent that the other charges in that indictment were sufficient. Let me make one point clear to the right hon. Member for Vauxhall, who has made allegation after allegation against the Attorney-General, and, in a wider way, against the Government: there was nothing in that charge compared with the the other charges which made the slightest difference to bail. Any charge of sedition would have carried the same ruling against bail, because the Irish Act concerning extradition meant that any man charged with a political offence in this country who returned to Southern Ireland could not be extradited back to England for that offence. It mattered not at all whether it was a treason-felony, sedition or a Public Order Act charge. There was nothing to be gained by the Crown in making the charge treason-felony. If it were a political offence, and that man were released on bail and he returned to Southern Ireland, the inevitable consequence was that he could not be extradited.
Mr. Strauss: That is true of all the other charges against Quinn except in relation to the Public Order Act.
The Solicitor-General: The only matter left against Quinn, because he had not attended any of these speeches—though it should not be forgotten that he was the elected chairman who acted as chairman throughout the month of May—
The Question having been proposed at Ten o'clock, and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned at half-past Ten o'clock.

AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Sugar Subsidy
  Sugar Subsidy
  Food Prices
  Food Prices
  Fishing Vessels (Construction Grants)
  Fishing Vessels (Construction Grants)
  Land Prices
  Land Prices
  Farm Price Review
  Farm Price Review
  Poultry Foods (Additives)
  Poultry Foods (Additives)
  Commonwealth Sugar Agreement
  Commonwealth Sugar Agreement
  Mutton and Lamb (Import Duties)
  Mutton and Lamb (Import Duties)
  Icelandic Fisheries
  Icelandic Fisheries
  Horticulture Improvement Scheme
  Horticulture Improvement Scheme
  Fish Trawling (Decasualisation of Labour)
  Fish Trawling (Decasualisation of Labour)
  Angling
  Angling
  Sea Fisheries Conservation
  Sea Fisheries Conservation
  Organic Farming and Horticulture (Subsidies)
  Organic Farming and Horticulture (Subsidies)
  Fresh Meat and Fish (Price Marking)
  Fresh Meat and Fish (Price Marking)
  Food Freshness (Steering Group)
  Food Freshness (Steering Group)
  Butter and Cheese (EEC Countries)
  Butter and Cheese (EEC Countries)
  Forestry Commission Plantings
  Forestry Commission Plantings
  Committees of Inquiry
  Committees of Inquiry
  Poultry Products (Compensatory Payments)
  Poultry Products (Compensatory Payments)
NATIONAL FINANCE
  Industrial Investment (Capital Allowances)
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  Taxation Yield
  Taxation Yield
  2½p Coin
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  Value added Tax
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  Committees of Inquiry
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  Personal Savings
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  Taxation Changes (Publicity)
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HOME DEPARTMENT
  Magistrates' Courts (Notes of Proceedings)
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CIVIL SERVICE
  Medical Appeal Tribunals (Remuneration)
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  Pension Allocations
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SOCIAL SERVICES
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  COUNTER-INFLATION POLICY
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  INFLATION (PRIME MINISTER'S SPEECH)
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DEFENCE
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EDUCATION AND SCIENCE
  Primary Schools (Macclesfield)
  Primary Schools (Macclesfield)
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EMPLOYMENT
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  Unfair Dismissal
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  EEC (Fifth Directive)
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HOUSE OF COMMONS
  Menus
  Menus
FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
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  Committees of Inquiry
NORTHERN IRELAND
  Duncairn Gardens, Belfast (Security)
  Duncairn Gardens, Belfast (Security)
POSTS AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS
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SCOTLAND
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ENVIRONMENT
  Planning Appeals (Explanatory Booklet)
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  Motor Vehicle Insurance (European Countries)
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  M3 (Winchester)
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  Speed Limit (London)
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TRADE AND INDUSTRY
  Exports (Restrictions)
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  Trumpington Church (Brass Rubbings)
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  Pipeline Technology
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  Smokeless Fuels
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  Beer
  Beer
  Consumer Goods (Packaging)
  Consumer Goods (Packaging)
  Committees of Inquiry
  Committees of Inquiry
  Japan
  Japan
WALES
  A470, Abercynon—Cefn Coed
  A470, Abercynon—Cefn Coed
  Primary Schools, Llandrindod Wells
  Primary Schools, Llandrindod Wells
  Rural Development
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  Playgroups
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  Hospital Building
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  Committees of Inquiry
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  Nursery Schools
  Nursery Schools
  Health Centres
  Health Centres
  Doctors (Cardiganshire)
  Doctors (Cardiganshire)

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR On the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Rochester.

RETIRED CIVIL SERVANTS IN INDUSTRY
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how many civil servants who have retired in the past five years with the rank of Under-Secretary or above have since been employed as consultants or directors of companies operating in the fields with which they were concerned during their public service.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE): My Lords, since permission to take such employment is not in all cases required, the exact number is not known. Of those cases where, because of the contractual or other special relationship between the company and the Government, departmental consent is necessary, only certain categories have to be referred to the Civil Service Department by the Departments concerned. There have been some forty such cases referred to my Department in the last five years.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: My Lords, while thanking the Minister for his Answer, and not wishing to make any slur on anybody's integrity for which indeed I have not a shred of evidence, I should like to ask the Minister whether he does not think the time is ripe, in view of the considerable number of cases that have come to notice, for some reconsideration of the regulations governing this practice, so that not only may integrity be protected but, certainly equally important, integrity may be seen to be protected?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I recognise that there is some disquiet about this matter. I also feel, and I think your Lordships will agree, that we are probably lucky enough to have the least corrupt public service in the world. That reputation has been richly deserved, and I think it is incumbent upon all of us to do everything we can to protect it. If there is disquiet in this area, as disclosed by the noble Baroness's Question, I shall certainly be glad to have a look at what may be done to allay it, without, as it were, making any commitment in this area.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, could the noble Earl say how many out of that number had retired prematurely, in advance of their normal age of retirement?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I am afraid I cannot without notice. One of the problems here is that there is a different age for retirement in the public service and the Government service and in the private sector. This, of course, means that there is a considerable advantage to firms; and there is, I think, public advantage in public servants working in the private sector for some years after their retirement from public service.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, would the noble Earl agree that some of the most difficult decisions that Ministers have to take are in this particular area? And would he also agree that the further inquiry he may set in hand is very necessary, because of the extent to which concern has arisen over a particular case, in regard to which my noble friend made no allegations of any kind at all? Would he therefore look into—but not until he has had time to consider it—the possibility of a restatement of the principles that apply in such cases?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I am grateful for the line which the noble Lord, the Leader of the Opposition, has taken in his supplementary question. As I have said, I shall be very glad to look into this matter, and if need be to communicate with noble Lords, and, if necessary, reply to a further Question on it.
LORD POPPLEWELL: My Lords, I understood the noble Lord to say that forty applications had been made in the

423
last five years. Would the noble Earl be able to say how many of those were approved or otherwise?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, there have been that number referred. I should again like notice in order to say what numbers have been approved or not, as the case may be.
LORD BALOGH: My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that the time has come to look into the matter of retiring age? In almost all walks of life the retirement age has been lifted, in Oxford and Cambridge, for instance, from 60 to 67. Perhaps the noble Earl will agree that this is one of the problems that has to be tackled before we can tackle the other part of the question. Obviously these able men ought not to be put into purdah. With the relationship between State and Private sector becoming more and more intimate, a new approach is needed.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, it is my impression that, not for the first time, Oxford is moving in a rather contrary direction to the rest of the world.
LORD BYERS: My Lords, would it not be true to say that the general trend to-day, in industry and elsewhere, is towards lower retirement age rather than a higher one?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, as a former denizen of another university, that was my impression, I must admit.
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: My Lords, could the noble Earl inform himself a little further about the retiring age in universities generally?
LORD BALOGH: Especially in Cambridge.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, as I have told noble Lords, I shall be glad to look into this question, both generally and particularly.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, will my noble friend keep in mind that almost the only posts for which people in the Foreign Service, who are cast off in the prime of life, are really suited are with companies trading with countries to which they have been on post?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, having cast myself off from the Foreign Service
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before the prime of life, I shall of course take due note of the observations of my noble friend.

COMMUNITY RESEARCH PROGRAMME
3.13 p.m.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what proportion of the 180 million u.a. Community Research Programme agreed by the Community Council of Ministers on February 6, 1973, will come from British sources; what proportion of the 1,700 personnel proposed to be employed on this programme will be British; and what consultations took place with British research organisations and with industry generally before the British Minister on the Council agreed to this programme.
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD DRUMALBYN): My Lords, I apologise for the length of this Answer. Although decisions of broad principle on a 4-year Community Research Programme were taken on February 6 by the Council of Ministers, details are still being worked out in discussions between the European Commission and Member States. It is hoped to complete this process by the end of April. It has been agreed that all United Kingdom contributions will be made on the basis of Article 130 of the Treaty of Accession; that is, on an upward sliding scale beginning in 1973 at 45 per cent. of our expected contribution to Community funding after the end of the transitional period, January 1, 1978. On the assumption of a programme costing 180 million units of account (about £75 million) the United Kingdom contribution over four years would probably be some 20 to 25 million units of account, about £8 million to £10 million.
As yet, there are no British staff employed in the Joint Research Centre itself; but we shall expect gradually to obtain our reasonable share of posts as in other parts of the institutions of the Community. Moreover, several parts of the research programme will undoubtedly

425
be carried out under contract by laboratories outside the Joint Research Centre. One such contract might be between the Commission and the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority concerning the work at the Culham Laboratory on the development of a fusion reactor. The number of U.K.A.E.A. professional staff likely to be involved is some 160 to 180. In addition there will be United Kingdom/Commission contracts for research in radiobiology and other fields. There was (and continues to be) close consultation with many interested organisations, especially with the U.K.A.E.A., in agreeing the Community research programme.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord for the information that he has given. May I ask him whether he is aware that I am by no means against this research programme? I am just at a loss to understand how it is compiled and how the British interest is taken into account. May I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware—as I hope he is—that we have spent a good deal of time in this House and in another place and in Select Committees, discussing the principles which lie behind any research in this country? Also, may I ask him to what extent the principles eventually agreed are to be embodied into the European programme, and to what extent Parliament will be brought into the compilation of the European programme?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, as the noble Lord is aware, the Joint Research Centre was set up under the Euratom Treaty and consists of four establishments in Belgium, Germany, the Netherlands and Italy. The principles which have guided the United Kingdom in dealing with this matter are, first of all, to make certain that good value is likely to be obtained for the money spent; and secondly, to see that work to be done in Community institutions is related to actually recognised needs—or more precisely, since it was first enunciated a year or so ago, to the customer/contractor principle. So that the principles are the same. What has happened in the past is that there has been an annual meeting to set up an annual programme. The advance that has now been made is to set up a four-year programme, choosing very carefully the subjects to be researched into.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, may I ask one final question of the noble Lord? What in the view of the British Government should be the priority, so far as this research is concerned? In which field do they think priority should be placed?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, it is, of course, inevitable that, as this stems from Euratom, there is a good deal of emphasis on the nuclear side and a large part of the expenditure is on this. It can be of use to us in, for example, the study of materials, the study of reactor safety, the work of the Central Bureau for Nuclear Measurements and so forth, including the treatment and storage of radioactive waste. On the non-nuclear side, there is study into the environment, the recycling of raw materials, hydrogen production and so forth. The principle throughout is to try to have common programmes which fit in with the individual programmes that are being carried out in the various member countries, and I hope that this will work out well. Certainly it would accord with the principles that we have been working on.
LORD WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, can the noble Lord tell us by how much the work is being reduced, and what reduction there is in the staff? Can he also tell us whether this reduction is a result of the policy of Her Majesty's Government?
LORD DRUMALBYN: No, my Lords; I do not think it is true that the work is being reduced. One part of the programme consists of 11 nuclear projects providing for 1,440 people. Another part involves the provision of a further 209 people. So I do not think it is true to say that the work is now being reduced. I cannot of course help what happened before we came into the Community.
LORD WYNNE-JONES: My Lords, can the noble Lord be a little more explicit on this point? Is it not true that the number employed previously was approximately twice the figure of 1,700 which is mentioned in the Question? Is it not also true that the reduction is a consequence of opposition by Her Majesty's Government to the programme?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I am not aware that that is so. The past history has been a somewhat unhappy

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one, as I said, with a kind of annual wrangle as to what work should be done from year to year. We are now trying to get it on a more permanent basis and, as I said, it is anticipated that the number will be increased. But I shall certainly look at the point made by the noble Lord and will be glad to write to him about it.
LORD KINGS NORTON: My Lords, can the Minister say what are the percentage contributions of the several Member States?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I cannot give the contributions of all the Member States. For our part we start off with a contribution of 45 per cent. of the 19 per cent. which we shall ultimately arrive at. I think that the contributions made by the other major Powers are about that, and the minor ones are of course less.

NORTH SEA OIL: PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE REPORT
3.20 p.m.
LORD BALOGH: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what measures they are taking on the observations and recommendations of the Commons Public Accounts Committee's Report on North Sea oil.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, the Government are now studying the Report, and will in due course give Parliament their views on the recommendations in it. My right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has already announced in his Budget speech that he accepted the recommendations in relation to the set-off of losses made by oil companies from their trade in oil in other parts of the world. Another main recommendation was that, before further licences are issued, all aspects of licensing policy should be reviewed in the light of the Report. As I informed your Lordships on February 28, 1973, a major review of policy is already under way, and it will take full account of the Report. Its outcome will be reported to Parliament as soon as it is completed.
LORD BALOGH: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord the Minister for that reply, which was more forthcoming than most of his replies on this topic. May I ask whether the review will be published before any further licensing takes place, so that it can be discussed both in this House and in another place?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, the result of the review will be announced, and I can give an undertaking that no more licences will be issued before the review is announced.
LORD BALOGH: My Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, also, may I, feeling emboldened, ask another question; to wit, whether the review will take into account the machinery-of-government aspect of this affair? Because it is obvious that merely to close the door after the horse has bolted—many horses in this case—is not enough, and that we ought really also to have a review of the Civil Service machinery aspect of the problem, which allowed this to happen.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, without accepting the imputation of the last three or four words, I can of course say that as the noble Lord well knows, the machinery of government to deal with particular problems is always being revised and reviewed so that it meets the circumstances of the time.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, does the noble Lord not think that it would be agreeable if he were to take this opportunity to pay a tribute to my noble friend for the assistance he has given to the Government in enabling them to move forward to meet the circumstances of the time?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I know that the noble Lord has been an advocate of what the Chancellor has now agreed to do, but, of course, I should not like to go so far as to say that he was the only advocate.
LORD SHEPHERD: Be generous!
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I am not being ungenerous, and the noble Lord has not even allowed me to finish what I was going to say. My Lords, we do very much appreciate the special attention that the noble Lord gives to this

429
problem, and we welcome all the help that he can give us.
LORD BALOGH: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord.

FUTURE OF NAMIBIA
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government how they propose to instruct their representatives at the United Nations regarding the future of Namibia (South West Africa) following the end of the dialogue within the Government of the Republic of South Africa on April 30, and following the refusal by the National Convention, representing African tribes and Parties, to participate in an Advisory Council.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE): My Lords, the United Nations Secretary-General has been asked to report to the Security Council by April 30 on his further contacts with the South African Government. Instructions to our representative at the United Nations will take account of Dr. Waldheim's report and of other relevant developments.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for that reply, may I ask her whether she is aware that this week, probably to-day, Mr. Vorster, the Prime Minister of the Republic, is opening the Advisory Council? Is she further aware that that Advisory Council has been repudiated by all the African political Parties in Namibia, by the coloured mixed races and by the tribal leaders; and will she, instead, influence Her Majesty's Government, when this matter is discussed by the Security Council, to propose that the future of Namibia should be decided by a constitutional Conference representing the Parties, the tribes and even those who are now co-operating in the Advisory Council?
BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE: My Lords, my information is that the first meeting of the Advisory Council is to be held on March 23, not to-day, and will be presided over by
430
Mr. Vorster. It is true that some tribal leaders have declined to nominate representatives, but I think we should wait until March 23 to see what comes front that meeting.
LORD BROCKWAY: Yes, my Lords; but is it not quite clear now that the overwhelming mass of the population of Namibia absolutely repudiates this Advisory Council, which has no power and which is entirely unrepresentative?
BARONESS TWEEDSMIUR OF BELHELVIE: My Lords, as I said, I think we should wait to find out what the people of the territory themselves think on March 23.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, is there some misprint in the Question on the Order Paper? What on earth is
"the dialogue within the Government …",
and how do we know that it has ended?
BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE: My Lords, I did not feel it was right to refer to this particular aspect of the Question, but possibly it referred to the dialogue between Dr. Waldheim and the Government of South Africa.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, is this Question not entirely correct? Is it not the case that the dialogue between the United Nations and the Republic of South Africa is to proceed until April 30, and, in that case, is not the Question absolutely correct?
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, I think the noble Lord who asked the Question has omitted to observe that what is on the Order Paper is the word "within" and not the word "with".
BARONESS LLEWELWYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, although we deeply love the noble Lord, Lord Conesford, on such an important matter as this is it not much more important that we should consider the content of the Question rather than a possible misprint?
BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE: My Lords, I think my noble friend was quite right to draw attention to any terminological inexactitude, but, at the same time, I think also that we have in this House been discussing the substance of the Question.

ANCILLARY HOSPITAL STAFF: PROPOSED PAY AND STRUCTURE INQUIRY
3.27 p.m.
BARONESS SEROTA: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question of which I have given Private Notice. The Question is as follows:
"To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the demand of the British Medical Association for a full inquiry into the pay and structure of the ancillary hospital staff, and the concurrence of the National Union of Public Employees in this demand, they will agree to the setting up of such an inquiry".
LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON: My Lords, with the leave of the House my noble friend Lord Aberdare will answer this Question at a convenient moment after 3.30.

PRESCRIPTION AND LIMITATION (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (LORD POLWARTH): My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to replace the Prescription Acts 1469, 1474 and 1617 and make new provision in the law of Scotland with respect to the establishment and definition by positive prescription of title to interests in land and of positive servitudes and public rights of way, and with respect to the extinction of rights and obligations by negative prescription; to repeal certain enactments relating to limitation of proof; to re-enact with modifications certain enactments relating to the time-limits for bringing legal proceedings where damages are claimed which consist of or include damages or solatium in respect of personal injuries or in respect of a person's death and the time-limit for claiming contribution between wrongdoers; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Polwarth.)
LORD HUGHES: My Lords, did the Minister read the Long Title or the Bill?
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 44 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with for the purpose of enabling the Counter-Inflation Bill to be taken through its remaining stages on Monday next.—(Earl Jellicoe.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COAL INDUSTRY BILL
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, I understand that no Amendments have been set down to this Bill and that no noble Lord has indicated a wish to move a manuscript Amendment or to speak in Committee. Therefore, unless any noble Lord objects, I beg to move, That the Order of Commitment be discharged.
Moved, That the Order of Commitment be discharged.—(Earl Ferrers.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CONCORDE AIRCRAFT BILL
3.30 p.m.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. It comes before your Lordships after two very full debates and a Committee stage which extended to four Sittings in another place. In the Commons, I am glad to say, the Opposition supported the Bill in principle. That was not altogether surprising, since the Bill is intended to amend the provisions of the Industrial Expansion Act 1968, sponsored by the previous Administration and designed to provide the necessary financial support for the British manufacturers engaged on the production of this remarkable aircraft, Concorde. I emphasise that what this Bill is concerned with is the production phase of this project, not the research and development phase.
I should like to give your Lordships a brief explanation of the reasons for the Bill and for the actual sums of money embodied in it. Those airlines which decide to purchase Concorde will normally make a small payment on the signature of a purchase contract, followed by

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a proportion of the outstanding price in stages up to the date when the aircraft is delivered. At that point they will complete payment of the full outstanding price. The precise amount to be paid before delivery of the aircraft will of course be negotiated separately with each individual customer. Meanwhile, however, the manufacturers have to finance the actual construction of the aircraft before receiving full payment; and the purpose of the Bill, as indeed was the purpose of Section 8 of the Industrial Expansion Act, is to enable the Government to guarantee loans from the companies' banks or advance loans themselves to provide the essential bridging finance until the final payment is received from the customers. These loans will then be repaid by the manufacturers from the receipts of aircraft sales and eventually production will become self-financing.
The present limit on the amounts which may be advanced or guaranteed under the Act of 1968 is £125 million. I think most of your Lordships who are interested in these matters know that the two Governments concerned, the British and the French Governments, have authorised the production of the first 16 Concordes. So far, some £45 million has been spent on this production programme. However, the total commitments entered into by the British manufacturers in ordering materials, components and equipment for the 16 production aircraft is now close to the upper limit under existing legislation of £125 million. We estimate that the total amount of this bridging finance now required by the British Aircraft Corporation and Rolls-Royce (1971) Limited, after taking account of payments from airlines, may amount to £250 million. The bankers of these two firms have agreed to provide £25 million of this amount against a Government guarantee, and the remainder will be provided by the Government in the form of loans attracting the one-to-five-year Government interest rate. Hence the Bill.
Your Lordships may reasonably ask why it is necessary to raise the original ceiling of £125 million of loan finance to double that; namely, the £250 million figure written into the Bill. The answer is that since the original limit was calculated the development pro-
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gramme has been reassessed and will take longer to complete than the forecast at that time. This has meant that the dates when aircraft can be delivered to airlines for service, and hence when final payments will be received for them, will now be later. Secondly, as we all know to our cost, there has been a period of sharp inflation since the original estimates were made, and this alone would have the effect of increasing the 1968 estimate by something like £50 million. When account is also taken of the effects of the aircraft's later entry into service, the figure of £250 million now proposed in the Bill represents little, if any, real increase over the limits originally provided in the 1968 legislation. The precise financial support needed by way of loans will depend upon a variety of factors, many of which must necessarily change as the programme proceeds. The total number of aircraft under manufacture, the number and timing of sales, the selling price achieved, the amount of advance payments negotiated with individual customers, and the size and pace of the eventual production programme will all affect the scale of loans or guarantees required.
My Lords, it would be tempting for me to speculate on the shape of the actual production programme. I must, however, resist that temptation. It is obvious that in order to offer competitive delivery dates the manufacturers must have a firm basic flow of aircraft under construction. But the actual number of aircraft being built in advance of actual orders at any one time involves a very difficult point of judgment. It depends on a great number of variable factors, some of which I have already mentioned. At the present time the manufacturers on both sides of the Channel, the British Aircraft Corporation and Aerospatiale, are examining variants of possible production programmes. When they have finished their examination, decisions by the British and French Governments will be required, but the necessary joint decision must of course await the appointment of the new French Government. In these circumstances, I am sure your Lordships will appreciate that I cannot be drawn into speculation as to the precise nature of the future production programme.
Meanwhile, assumptions have had to be made about the amount that may be

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required as financing loans for the British firms involved in the programme. Our assumptions may prove over-pessimistic, in which case substantially less than £250 million will be needed. If, however, they prove over-optimistic, more may possibly be required and the figure could rise as high as £350 million—we are here speaking of loan finance, of course. The Government believe that in such circumstances Parliament should have the right to look at the matter again, and that is why the Bill provides that this extra £100 million should be authorised only by Affirmative Resolution. The present uncertainty which necessarily surrounds the actual size and shape and the pace of the future programme makes it difficult to forecast the date by when the loans will be repaid. The Bill therefore removes the provision in the 1968 Act that the loans and guarantees must be repaid by mid-1979. I would stress that this in no way absolves the manufacturers from repayment, which will be made automatically as the sales revenue builds up.
Concorde represents a major advance in the evolution of civil aviation, and indeed the first decisive technological innovation since the introduction of the jet some twenty years ago. It is entirely understandable in these circumstances that some airlines, who in this exceedingly competitive area of international commerce have formulated their plans for the immediate future—huge orders of subsonics, for example—may be reluctant to commit themselves at this stage to ordering so novel an aircraft as Concorde before they absolutely have to. However confident one may be of the outcome, the financial risks involved—and one would frankly acknowledge this—are considerable. As was confirmed by the previous Administration in establishing the basis for supporting the Concorde production programme, the manufacturers do not command the resources to undertake manufacture of the aircraft, and cannot be expected to bear all the risks. The Government have therefore agreed in principle with the companies arrangements which will give them a strong incentive to make a success of the project. Under these arrangements, profits will be shared between the manufacturer and the Government, and the manufacturers' level of profits will depend on the success achieved. The manufacturers have also,
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I am glad to say, accepted that they will bear a risk of loss and the Government will indemnify them against the risk of losses above those levels.
My Lords, may I conclude these perhaps necessarily rather dry introductory remarks—after all, loan finance embodied in the formal phraseology of legislation is a fairly dry subject, even when we are speaking of figures of this magnitude—by a few brief observations of a more general and indeed of a more personal nature, and of course if there are any questions put to me or questions arising in the course of this debate I shall be glad to answer them in winding up. My Lords, I said just now that Concorde represents a great stride forward in the evolution of civil aviation. So it does, and I believe that all concerned with this project on both sides of the Channel, from the peaks of administration and management down to the humblest employee on the factory floor, can justly take a great deal of pride in what is by any standard, whatever one may feel about the commercial prospects, an outstanding technological achievement and an outstanding manifestation of Anglo-French and indeed European collaboration. My Lords, in speaking of pride we must always remember that nearly 24,000 people in the United Kingdom alone, many of them people of the highest talents and skills and of great dedication are employed on this project, the largest project of its kind which the world has known apart from the American space programme.
Having said that, I should like to emphasise, in concluding these introductory remarks, that this is not a project which we are pursuing out of any vain sense of prestige or national vainglory. The whole history of air transport demonstrates that the main commodity which it has to sell is a simple one, namely speed, and that is what Concorde in a pre-eminent degree offers the airlines and the public. Its capabilities were very clearly demonstrated on the tours which the prototypes have made. I remember very well the tour of the Far East last year in which I was privileged to take part. The aircraft halved travel time on a great many routes, and I know from personal first-hand experience the deep interest in the potential of supersonic travel which it aroused among the general public, the Governments concerned and

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the airlines of the countries through which it passed.
My Lords, there is one illusion which the opponents of this project seek to propagate and which I should like to do my best to dispel; and here one touches on the philosophy behind this project. Concorde is often represented as a rich man's toy—the sort of aircraft from which only the international jet set would derive advantage. Nothing, in my view, can be further from the truth. One of the great advantages of air transport has been to bring within the reach of millions of people around the world the ability which was probably not theirs before to see and travel in countries far from their own. By and large, I think this is good. I am quite certain of one thing, and that is that travel of this sort, mass air travel, will enormously expand, whether we like it or not, in the years to come, and I believe that in the next two decades the great bulk of that particular traffic will be carried in the existing or the great new subsonic aircraft which are over the horizon and which are to come. But there will be other travellers for whom the ability to get at twice high subsonic speed to their destination will be of the greatest possible advantage. I am not referring here merely to the rich and to the privileged; I am referring to busy businessmen, to executives of all types, to professional men and women, to officials and diplomats—and I also have in mind even poor politicians.
Let me illustrate what I have in mind by one simple fact. My wife happened to join me in Tokyo for the Pacific leg of Concorde's tour, and because she happened to contract a rather juvenile disease called measles at an inauspicious moment she had to fly out direct to Tokyo. She flew out direct, and that very tiring journey took something like 17 or 18 hours. If that journey had been made in Concorde that time would have been cut in half. My Lords, time saving of that kind can really be of very great benefit indeed to many busy people all around the world, and there will be many routes on which savings of this order of magnitude will in fact be achieved. It is my view—and here I am expressing perhaps a personal conviction—that those airlines which are first to operate Concorde may well reap a rich harvest from their enter-
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prise. It is with these larger considerations in mind that Her Majesty's Government, together with the French Government, have given and are giving their full backing to the manufacturers of this remarkable aircraft, and to the determined efforts which those manufacturers are making in what is admittedly a very difficult market. I hope that your Lordships will underline your agreement with the policy which is being pursued by the two Governments in their backing for all those involved in this enterprise by giving your support to this Bill. My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Earl Jellicoe.)
3.46 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, we have before us to-day a small Money Bill of a kind in regard to which we do not usually spend much time in your Lordships' House, but as on some other occasions this is a vehicle for a very important decision. It is, in fact, a question as to whether we should go on with Concorde. My Lords, this is a difficult area. It is an area in which one can go on making calculations, studies, projections, mathematical models; but the ultimate decision has to rest on judgment and to some extent on faith. In my opinion that has been true of many other advanced technological projects. It is not possible for us even now to prove that whatever decision we come to is necessarily the right one. I have myself come to a firm personal view, that although there are arguments that it is folly to go on spending money on this and on subsequent aircraft, it would be even greater folly to abandon the project at this stage. I should like to give my reasons to the House. Substantially they are the same reasons that I gave in the House nearly 10 years ago when we first debated the supersonic aircraft. There are arguments—they are indeed powerful arguments—that can be given against going on with Concorde. There is the argument that one ought not to throw good money after bad. My contention is that if we do put some more money in—and this is the purpose of the Bill—we shall redeem the advantages of the earlier investment, and it is not impossible that the advantages may be very much greater than the present times indicate.

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My Lords, in discussing Concorde it is necessary to recognise that there are those, and they are some of my noble friends and probably noble Lords on the other side of the House, who take the view that because of the way the world is going we ought to spend less money and less time on Concorde, motorways, advanced technology generally and that even growth is not necessarily a good thing; and that we ought to go in for what is now popularly called "soft technology", which consists of living in a cottage in Wales in a small commune and relying for heating on a heat pump which you make yourself—and for which you would need a little bit of outside technology—and there you would be freed from the stresses, noises and pollution of the present-day world. That is very attractive, but the fact is that the world is as it is and it is one we cannot get off—except perhaps for a few astronauts who get to the moon. The decisions we have to take in politics, industry or in our private lives may never be the complete, perfect optimum solution. They have to be the best solution in practice.
I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, that speed of travel is a benefit. Many people ask why people want to go rushing around so fast; why it is that speed is so much in demand. Why do we all have motor cars? Of course, the motor car is not the most speedy way to travel; it merely happens to be more convenient—and when the railways are not working one must admit that perhaps a motor car is essential. But the great social argument in favour of speed in travel has been that it has brought the communities of the world closer together and I believe that it makes a substantial contribution to the effective operation of the world's economic systems where time is very important.
I do not wish to go into a mathematical dissertation on time and travel, but it is a fact that one cannot think simply in hours; one must think in terms of journeys. The advantage of the railways being able to increase their speed by the use of advanced passenger trains, so that passengers can get from London to Manchester in three hours or whatever the time may be, will be very good. Incidentally, that may knock out some of the airline business; but that is a natural
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development. To people who have to go to New York frequently on business the advantage of being able to do it in three hours instead of six and a half hours is a real benefit. For the great majority of leisure travellers speed is not that important. It is not essential to fly to Australia in 13 hours or 14 hours instead of having to take 28 or 30. Probably these travellers would not want to fly direct in any case; they would want to make a stop on the way. But to an individual who has to undertake the journey in a hurry speed is crucial. The noble Earl gave a striking example when he quoted the experience of his wife, although I thought it was mumps and not measles from which she was suffering.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, of course the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, is far better informed than I am, and he is quite right.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I think the noble Earl said that I was quite right. I am always delighted to give him additional domestic information. In the last 18 months I have flown twice non-stop to Australia, not with the noble Earl's wife, although he and I and his wife all flew in Concorde half way to New Zealand and back in a very short period during what I can only call the noble Earl's "sales tour". I have twice flown direct to Australia and it took 28 hours, and on the whole I am a fairly good air traveller. I sleep, and I do not worry and I try not to eat too much. But on each occasion it took me three days to recover from the journey, and I shall never do it again because it is not good for one's health. In future, if I have to go to Australia, as I may well have to do on business or for some other reason, I shall always make a stop. One may fly from Hong Kong to London in about 18 hours and that is a possible journey. One may stop and perhaps lose a day and altogether one may lose a couple of days. But whether we like or not, businessmen, industrialists, Ministers and Members of Governments will need to travel fast. These are the people who are travelling in the most comfortable way they can, which is in the first class section of the aircraft.
The noble Earl made the point that being able to fly fast in this first class manner is not just a question of privilege, and it is noteworthy—I cannot remember

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whether the noble Earl made this point—that it is primarily a question of efficiency. It is interesting to note that the Russians have gone ahead with the TU-144. It may be that the Russians are élitists, but the Chinese are interested in buying Concorde and they are the least elitist nation in the world. The fact is that supersonic travel is with us whether we like it or not. Unquestionably the Americans will build some form of supersonic air transport at some stage. As was said by the National Aviation Authority to the Congressional House Aeronautics Sub-Committee, there will, in fact, be such an aircraft; and they observed that the first and the second generations of the supersonic transports are a threat to the United States posture in civil aviation. It is quite obvious that they hope that the Concorde will be rather like the Comet—I hope without the disasters that befell the Comet—and will blaze the way for other people to reap the benefit, as has happened in the past.
I think it clearly essential that we should take account of our experience in the past. One of the difficulties regarding profitability calculations is the load factor. It is a tragedy that the British flag carriers underestimated the attraction of the VC10 and as a result, although it has achieved a higher load factor than was expected, when the time came the production line had ceased; the aircraft were not there, and we did not reap the full advantage of that plane. I think it very likely that this time there will be a very much higher load factor. I cannot foretell what it will be. One may undertake all these complicated studies. I am told that the studies of the load factor are not at all ambitious but that it is rather a small load factor. My guess is that when B.O.A.C. and Air France can fly to New York in three hours instead of six and a half hours they will make an absolutely complete takeover of all those passengers who have to travel on business and there is a real prospect that Britain and France may, for a period of years, establish a commanding lead in the world air travel market.
As the noble Earl made clear, it is not just a matter of status or prestige, but also it should bring a very considerable commercial advantage. It is interesting to note that the Study from the Library
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of Congress of February 15 of this year ends with these words:
"The outlook is not at all bleak for the first generation Concorde. Successful experience with this aircraft on the part of B.O.A.C. and Air France may well prompt other airlines particularly those competing with B.O.A.C. and Air France on the trans-Atlantic run to turn their options into firm orders over the next few years."
My Lords, there is no country in the world, in my opinion, to whom Concorde could be more important than Australia. But whereas B.O.A.C. does not necessarily require a direct Sydney-Singapore flight, Quantas does. If I understand it correctly—it may be that the noble Earl can give the answer on this—it is only a question of marginally further development expediture to meet the Qantas requirement.
The question of route patterns is a complicated one. It is interesting to see that Concorde in its recent trials has met the requirements that were originally sought: I believe they have carried 28,000 lb over a stage length of 3,750 miles, which certainly in the days when I was in Government we were not expecting them to get anywhere near. The recent high level hot temperature tests have been successful; and I understand that some real progress has been made in regard to those agonising environmental questions. We are all deeply concerned about noise pollution, and there is no doubt that in future civilisation will tolerate this less and less. But I understand recent tests suggest that the Concorde will be no noisier than some of the existing aircraft, such as the 707 or the VC 10 which are operating now, and which, whether we like it or not, will be operating for many years to come. No one of course is going to tolerate the boom over inhabited areas. I am told, too, that the visible exhaust discharges, which have also been a marked factor in earlier versions of other aircraft, has largely been cured.
There is one other argument that I would use in support of Concorde—and here again one is in one of the more difficult areas; namely the advantages that may be derived by others from the development of an advanced technological project of this kind. It is interesting to look at the report of the Centre for the Study of Industrial Innovation on this now rather over-abused word "spin-off". I do not propose to go into the arguments

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as to the particular advantageous types of spin-off from Concorde, but the number of firms which have claimed some advantages, and in certain cases significant advantages, from the work that they have been doing in association with B.O.A.C. is quite striking. The development of methods of quality control and production control all add to the ability that we need to have.
My Lords, in the light of all this, I think it is right for us to go on with Concorde. It is a strikingly beautiful aircraft. Its advantages could be very great, and I think it would be folly for us now not to follow up the heavy expenditure we have already made on this aircraft and seek to reap the advantages which I believe faith can bring us.

ANCILLARY HOSPITAL STAFF: PAY AND STRUCTURE
4.3 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE): My Lords, I apologise for interrupting this debate, but it might be a convenient moment for me to answer the Private Notice Question of the noble Baroness, Lady Serota, who ask the Government:
"Whether, in view of the demand of the British Medical Association for a full inquiry into the pay and structure of the ancillary hospital staff and the concurrence of the National Union of Public Employees in this demand, they will agree to the setting up of such an inquiry?"
If I may reply in the words of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Social Services, he has replied:
"I have said several times that it is open to the trade unions concerned to put their case to the Pay Board, and I very much hope they will agree to do so."
BARONESS SEROTA: My Lords, first I must thank the noble Lord for repeating the reply that was made by his right honourable friend in another place. The noble Lord will not be surprised to hear that I find it extremely disappointing, and I have no doubt that the B.M.A. and the unions concerned will also find it bitterly disappointing at this moment of time when all of us concerned with the
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future wellbeing of the Health Service would wish to see the Government taking more positive action. Surely the noble Lord will agree that the Government—and the Secretary of State in particular—have a personal and direct responsibility in this matter, and that they must take action to end the present deadlock, which has arisen, I would submit, as a result of their very rigid policies.
As to the noble Lord's right honourable friend's reply that the unions should go to the Pay Board, would I be right in thinking that even if they were to do this once the Board is set up, the Board could only make recommendations; that the recommendations would only be advisory; and that even if they were accepted in due course by the Government, the hospital workers could not receive an increase until next December? If that were to be so, would the noble Lord also confirm that this would mean that they would not have had an increase for some two years, and certainly not since the Report that his own Department received from the Department of Employment, and this because they were caught by a mere few days by the Government's freeze last November? Could he also confirm with regard to the offer of £2 that has been made, and which the Secretary of State has urged the staff to accept, that this applies only to one-third of the workers, because two-thirds of the workers in the hospital ancillary services are female, and they have been offered only £1·80?
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, the fact of the matter is, as my right honourable friend has made clear, that there can be no revision of the Stage 2 terms of £1 plus 4 per cent., which must apply to everyone. On the other hand, although the Pay Board is not yet formally set up—it will not formally exist until April 1—the chairman, deputy chairman and officers have been appointed and could start to consider very quickly evidence submitted to them about the pay of National Health Service ancillary staff.
So far as the two points put to me by the noble Baroness are concerned, her first point was that there would have been no increase for these workers for two years if they were not to get a further increase until December. But of course that is ignoring the fact that there is an

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offer open to them at the moment. They could accept that offer with effect from this week, and we very much hope that they will do so. On her second point, it is true that the offer is £2 per week for men and £1·80 for women, but this represents the same percentage increase for both men and women.
LORD AMULREE: My Lords, I should like to support the noble Baroness in what she has said, because although I am not really in favour of the ad hoc inquiries making more and more special cases, it seems that if the result of the application to the Pay Board will not be effective until next December, it is rather a long time for these workers to wait, especially as they are not particularly well paid at the present time. I know that they have the offer of the £2 now. One hopes that, supposing some kind of gesture is made by way of getting them before the Pay Board quickly, or getting an independent inquiry set up, they might possibly be prepared to accept the offer and thereby bring to an end a difficult and uncomfortable situation.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I fully realise that difficulties occur when a freeze is operating. But there are many people who could claim exceptions, and it would be quite wrong to make one exception because it would lead to many others being claimed. I would only say that, although one fully recognises that these workers are among the lower paid, we hope that as a result of the recommendations of the Pay Board we shall be able to meet some of the difficulties of relativities and anomalies which inevitably occur when one has a freeze.
LORD AUCKLAND: My Lords, while accepting that any offer above the £2 must wait until Stage 3, may I ask whether my noble friend is aware that there is great concern in all parts of your Lordships' House, and in the country too, about the situation of these people? These are very dedicated people, and I should like to ask my noble friend whether he would make representations to his right honourable friend to make quite sure that when the Pay Board sets to work these people are given very high priority indeed. They have some difficult jobs to do—very often dirty jobs—and they work very long hours. As this is a matter of urgency, may I ask my noble friend whether he will make
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these urgent representations to his right honourable friend?
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I am grateful for what my noble friend has said. My right honourable friend is fully aware of the value of the work done by these staffs of the hospitals. Certainly it will be his earnest endeavour to see that they receive fair treatment.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, the noble Lord and the Government are afraid that if they accept any claim from any category of workers it will start a chain reaction. That is their argument, as I understand it. But I believe that the whole country regards this category of workers as unique, because everybody knows that throughout this century, because of their dedication—and the noble Lord mentioned that—these people, on moral grounds, have been reluctant to withdraw their labour. Withdrawal of labour is the only weapon that the worker has in the labour market. While other workers have been on strike—on strike to-day or on strike throughout the century—these people have never withdrawn their labour because they have felt vulnerable to criticism. That of course is not the only reason. They also have a high moral standard; and that is precisely why in the first place they were prepared to undertake work which many people are not prepared to do—work which is not very congenial and which is lowly paid. It is apparent to everyone that all employers of their labour are prepared to exploit them. I am asking the noble Lord not to treat these workers simply as another case and therefore to use the argument: "We must not make any exception". I am asking him to regard these workers as unique. My final word is on the fact that it was said that these women are—
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I hesitate to interrupt the noble Baroness, but this is a Private Notice Question.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, may I ask a further question?
EARL JELLICOE: The noble Baroness may indeed ask another question.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: I am grateful to the noble Earl. This is a very important matter and I hope that

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the next time the noble Earl is ill—though I hope he will not be—he will appreciate the importance of the work done by these people. May I ask this: in view of the fact that these women have been offered £1·80 that they can have right away, does he not realise that sum will keep them in the position of the poorest paid in the whole country?
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I am sorry not to be able to agree with the noble Baroness that one can regard any one category as being of exceptional hardship. We have the greatest sympathy—certainly all of us in this House and those who have anything to do with hospitals—with their case. But I cannot accept that it is unique. People can make equally good cases for other categories of workers. So far as the offer to the men and women is concerned, as I said before, the percentage offer is the same; and there is a further amount available to the women under the equal pay scheme later on this year, falling within the provisions of the counter-inflation policy. The fact of the matter is that these are among the lower paid workers. But the £1 plus 4 per cent. arrangements apply also to the higher paid workers; and to that extent they are fair to all.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that this is typical of the high-handed attitude that the Government have adopted in the industrial relations field? Is he not aware that the Answer to the Question is both arrogant and inaccurate? It is not possible for the trade unions to put their case to the Pay Board. There is no Pay Board: it is not yet established. The Bill has not yet gone through Parliament—but yet it is stated in this cold-blooded and, as I say, arrogant way that they can put their case to the Pay Board. What is meant by that phrase if the Bill has not yet been passed? If the personnel of the projected Pay Board are there, why can they not invite the trade union officials to go and see them, and call this an inquiry and not a Pay Board investigation? If that were done and if the unions, on that basis, were prepared to recommend a return to work, would that not be a better way of dealing with the matter?
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I rather resent the way in which the noble Lord has called the statement "arrogant and inaccurate" and I do not think that sort of speech is likely to help in what is a very difficult situation. All I would say is that we have done our best to advance the setting up of the Pay Board. As I said originally, the Pay Board will formally come into existence if and when the Bill passes through your Lordships' House, but already the chairman and the deputy chairman have been appointed, and the officers also. They could be starting to consider any evidence that was put to them.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I am not referring to the noble Lord himself; I am referring to the words in the Answer. There is no Pay Board as yet, but that is what is said. And if the situation is as the noble Lord himself has just explained, then why is not the Answer phrased in a more conciliatory way? Why are the trade unions not being invited to put their case before a body of people which might be called an inquiry, until such time as the Pay Board is established?
BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER: My Lords, assuming that the Pay Board comes into existence within a reasonable time, could the noble Lord give us an assurance that in their consideration of any application coming from this group of workers due weight will be given to the article of the Pay Code which requires special attention to be given to the lower paid worker? Secondly, since the Pay Code is still only a Consultative Document and these difficulties really arise out of its extreme rigidity, would the Government consider revising the Code before it becomes fully operative, so as to give rather more room for manœuvre in cases such as the present one?
LORD ABERDARE: Certainly, my Lords, it is our intention, as has been said, to pay special attention to the lower paid worker, and certainly any inquiry by the Pay Board—if the noble Lord will allow me to refer to the Pay Board—would take account of the problems of other related groups of workers. On the second point made by the noble Baroness, we are dealing here with Phase 3 of the policy. Phase 2 is concerned with the rigid £1 plus 4 per cent.

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In Phase 3 the Pay Board will be advising the Government in time for the formulation of the third stage of policy, which will begin in the autumn.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, is the noble Lord not aware that my noble friend was not referring to Phase 3? She was quoting from the Green Paper, which relates to Phase 2.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, all I can say is that it is at Phase 3 that we shall examine the problems of relativities and anomalies. Phase 2 is the £1 plus 4 per cent.
BARONESS SEROTA: My Lords, this is the point I am raising. I stress the urgency of this matter. I do not think the British Medical Association would have gone on record and approached the Government in the way that they did, if they had not been deeply concerned about the conditions in the service. I asked the noble Lord at the outset (and I should like him to confirm this) whether it is not the case that even if the Pay Board, when it is established, investigates the case and makes recommendations, and the recommendations are then accepted, the increase cannot be made available at the earliest until the autumn, and probably not until December. There is that time lag. As to the suggestion that it is now open to the unions to accept the offer of £2 or £1·80, depending upon whether one is a male or a female worker, I can only suggest to the noble Lord that it will deny these people the benefits that many of them are getting from the other side of his Department as the lowest paid workers of all, because as their pay goes up £2 so they will sacrifice £2 of family income supplement benefits.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I must briefly reply to the last point of the question of the noble Baroness. The fact is that the family income supplement is paid for twelve months, so it would not automatically be sacrificed.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, could the noble Lord recognise that there is some flexibility, despite the accusations of rigidity? Could not these people be treated in the same flexible way as the Government treated the banks in permitting them to raise their dividends
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well above the rate of dividends for last year?
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, that question does not seem to me to arise out of the particular answer that I gave the noble Baroness.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, would not my noble friend also agree that the lower paid workers in the form of National Health ancillary workers will be the greatest beneficiaries if the Government's counter-inflation policy succeeds.
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. Of course they will, and indeed the whole nation will benefit.

CONCORDE AIRCRAFT BILL
4.23 p.m.
Debate on Second Reading resumed.
LORD AVEBURY: My Lords, the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, said quite rightly that Concorde is a great technological achievement, and he gave some illustrations which were followed up by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton. It is a remarkable accomplishment that a considerable period of time before the aircraft is due to enter service it has already attained a level of performance much better than the manufacturers had undertaken to the purchasers. As the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, pointed out, the Concorde carried 28,000 lb. over 3,750 miles; the figure which has been quoted in the manufacturers' literature is 20,000 lb. over that distance. The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, rightly pointed to the success of the hot and high trials. From all the evidence, we can be certain that Concorde is technologically successful and that it will do even better than the manufacturers have claimed for it in the past. That is not the same as saying that it is going to be an economic success if and when it enters airline service. At this stage in the life of the project, when we are committing ourselves to spending a very large additional sum of money, we ought to take a hard look at the prospects for sales to the airlines in the light of the most recent developments—the cancellation of options by a number of airlines, and the prospect that only a small number of aircraft will actually be produced in the end.

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Like the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, I have gone on record over this project for more than ten years. The first speech I made on it was on December 21, 1962, when I said that the important factor was how much the final development costs would be, because that matter would enter into the operating costs of the aircraft if those development costs were to be recovered. I said that past experience showed that in the development of new aircraft, invariably the costs were more than the figure given at the beginning. I went on:
"I am prepared to bet a monkey to a mousetrap that future Ministers will have to come back and ask for a tot more money before the prototype even gets off the ground".
By the time the prototype flew the figure had escalated from £150 million, which was the amount quoted in 1962, to something like £730 million, an escalation of aboue five to one. That trend has continued since then. The Estimates Committee has drawn up a table showing how these development costs have risen right up to the present day. I realise that in this Bill we are talking about production costs. Nevertheless, the matter is relevant, because the sale price of the aircraft must include an element of repayment of the development costs. I should like to hear something from the noble Earl this afternoon as to what is the latest plan regarding the recovery of some, or all, of this large sum of money which has been committed by the taxpayer over the past 12 years.
I said that the economics of the aircraft were the crucial matter that we should be looking at this afternoon, because that determines how many aircraft are going to be sold. The noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, thinks that people are going to be prepared to pay for this speed bonus. I agree with the striking illustration he produced of the reduction in travelling time between Tokyo and London. But perhaps he could tell us whether this assumes that Concorde will be able to over-fly the Soviet Union, or the United States, at supersonic speeds. As the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, said, nobody is going to tolerate the boom over inhabited areas, and while it may be possible to go over some parts of the northern U.S.S.R. without causing annoyance to the inhabitants, there may be certain parts of the journey which have to be undertaken at
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subsonic speed, so the benefit of the time saving that he quoted would be only a theoretical one, not a change in airline service. I agree that if that were the case, if we could reduce the journey time to Tokyo by a factor of 50 per cent., then certainly the industrialists, businessmen, Ministers, and anybody else who does not have to pay for his ticket, will use the aircraft. It is going to be an expensive journey, and I do not suppose Lord Jellicoe's wife would take kindly to going to Tokyo on Concorde if she had to pay the fare herself.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, nor would the noble Lord take kindly to it if he had to pay the fare himself.
LORD AVEBURY: Certainly not; that is what I am saying. Because the aircraft will be entirely first-class, and because on top of that there will be an additional 10 per cent. surcharge, its passengers are virtually going to be limited to people whose fares will be paid for by their employers, or by some other philanthropist who is prepared to subsidise their travel.
The mass market of air transport is not as critically dependent on speed as the noble Earl has told the House. If we look at the past few years we see that the enormous growth has been in the inclusive tour market, which does not depend on aircraft like the Concorde; it depends mainly for its continued reduction in real costs on the development of the wide-bodied jets, such as the Lockheed 10.11 which is being introduced into service this year by Court Line on the inclusive tours which they are operating. That is where the real growth in air traffic has taken place in the past and there is no reason to assume that it will not continue in the future. If there is this big premium market, which both noble Lords have envisaged, why is it that the only airlines who have placed firm orders for Concorde so far are B.O.A.C. and Air France?
The situation in the past few months has changed drastically with the cancellation of some of the options. At the time when the Bill was going through another place extreme reticence was needed because those options were coming up for consideration, particularly those for Pan Am and T.W.A. The Minister for Aerospace said it would be unwise for

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any Minister to start down the road of becoming involved in the dissemination of information to people determined to use it for the wrong purposes. That is a rather wide generalisation, but I accept that it could have been true in this case; if there was the remotest prospect of Pan Am or T.W.A. taking up those options, nothing ought to have been said, and nothing was said, which might have jeopardised negotiations. But now this is water under the bridge and I think we are entitled to have some prognostications from the Minister as to what will happen with the rest of the options that are still pending, particularly, for example, the J.A.L. option which has been extended but on which the Press comment was that this was out of politeness rather than any real intention of going ahead with an order for the aircraft in future. If the orders have been scaled down to a very small number—B.O.A.C., Air France, perhaps M.E.A., who certainly made encouraging noises—then we ought not to be speaking about a sum of £350 million. Probably this is a matter that we could explore on Committee stage possibly we could limit it to the amount which is not covered by the additional Statutory Instrument. As I understand it, we have already spent the whole of the amount which was originally committed under the Industrial Expansion Act and we have to provide some more money to enable the production line to be continued. The figure might be £250 million rather than £350 million. We should then have a more comprehensive opportunity of reviewing the financing than if that amount could be raised simply by Ministerial order.
As I understand the position the amount committed covers 16 aircraft, which is more than have been ordered by B.O.A.C. and Air France; but Mr. Heseltine, the Minister for Aerospace, said in Standing Committee in the Commons that we shall not be using the money unless we are selling the aircraft. Can the noble Earl explain that statement? If we have not sold those aircraft but we have started to build the first 16, and presumably we are also ordering long dated materials for a further batch, then of course we are using the money for aircraft which have not been sold. I should like to know whether the Government have any contingency plans for
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using those Concordes which might be produced and not taken up in the form of orders by the airlines.
Of course this money is being advanced by way of loan, and the intention is for it ultimately to be recovered when the State receives payment from the airlines, but I think it rather odd that there is no mention in the Bill of security. If the security was the aircraft, then clearly in the circumstances I am envisaging it would be impossible to recover if there was no customer. Or is it secured by a technical floating charge on the undertaking of the manufacturers, in this country B.A.C. and Rolls-Royce? Certainly taxpayers are entitled to some degree of security if very large sums of money are to be lent, as in this Bill.
It would be useful, too, if the Minister, in winding up the debate, could give us a list of those options which are still pending and some slight indication of when they are likely to reach a conclusion. At least we could then see the time-scale within which some firm decision has to be reached. In spite of my criticism I am certainly not saying that we should stop the Concorde project at this stage. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton. We have spent a great deal of money on it and it would be catastrophic as far as the employment of the manufacturers and sub-contractors was concerned if we had to put an end to it at this moment. But we are already having to talk about the scaling down of the commitment to production. As I understand it, there has been some discussion as to whether there should be a single manufacturing line instead of the two we have at present. If so, we are faced with the thorny question of whether that line should be in this country or in France. I should be grateful if the Minister could say something about the progress of discussions on that subject.
In conclusion, I hope very much that my fears are misplaced and that the Concorde will be as much an economic success as it has been a technical success. When we think of all the effort and scientific and technological expertise that has gone into it we realise that it would be a tragedy if, as the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, has said, like the Comet 1 it blazed a trail into supersonic flight leaving others to reap the benefit. I certainly hope that does not occur.
4.35 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, my first wish is to echo what the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, has said, in admiration for all those from the lowest to the highest who have been engaged for a good many years now in the development of this remarkable aircraft. Particularly my mind goes to those who are usually known as the "front end"—the test pilots and the air crew—for the really remarkable achievements of their test work.
In my view the Concorde opens up a great and exciting prospect for the future of Britain and France. One may argue about the economics of the Concorde, about its operational costs, operational revenue and whether it will ever be a viable proposition. One may argue that question for many hours, and various people come to different conclusions, according to their particular point of view on the project. But even if the Concorde was never what we call a strictly viable proposition, even if some of the more optimistic financial forecasts were not achieved, I think its development is absolutely essential in this technological age. With the start of the Concorde Britain and France enter the new supersonic era with a lead, and I believe the supersonic era may contain developments which our finite and limited minds cannot to-day envisage.
Aviation history is fascinating. If your Lordships will cast your minds back, it has gone in certain positive great stages. We are, I think, in the sixth stage now. The first stage was the Wright Brothers; the second stage was the development, in about 1909, of something which your Lordships may or may not know about—the noble Lord, Lord Kings Norton, does, as well as one or two other noble Lords—the rotary engine which made flying practical and which we used right up to the end of World War I. The third great development was metal construction. I can remember going to an aero exhibition at Olympia in 1920 and seeing an ordinary conventional aeroplane made in metal by Short Brothers. The fourth was the development, in the early 1930s, of what are called "skin stressed wings"—wings covered with metal; variable pitch airscrews, undercarriages tucked up. The fifth was the jet age, which we had after World War II. Now we have the supersonic age, which is Stage 6; and maybe
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there will be a seventh stage, the interplanetary age, which I shall not see but some of your Lordships who are younger may yet see.
But here we are, Britain and France, the leaders of one of the new stages of aviation, and I cannot over-emphasise to your Lordships the importance of the position which Britain and France have managed to achieve in the start of this sixth stage. If order prospects were bleak I do not believe the Government policy should be to slow down production. The noble Earl the Leader of the House told us that the present programme is for 16. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, was rather depressing in thinking that we might be building Concordes which might be unsold. If the Concorde failed and our faith was false, by producing unwanted aircraft we should add individual aircraft costs only to a far greater development cost which we have already spent. But against this we have faith. With our faith strong I would prefer to see the production line doubled rather than halved. Build and sell, or build and offer to lease to the world's airlines which are too timorous to buy until they have seen the product and have the faith in its operations that we have had from the beginning. That may be over-bold, but that is something I should dearly like to be considered.
LORD AVEBURY: My Lords, would the noble Lord allow me? The manufacturers offered to lease or rent the aircraft to Pan Am on almost any terms Pan Am might have demanded, and they still were not prepared to take up their options.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: But they have not seen the final product operating. It is better to build on and on and be willing to lease rather than to cut down on something in which we have faith. If we have not complete and absolute faith then the policy of the noble Lord governs the position; but most of us, certainly those concerned with aviation, have faith in the product and its final conquest in this new era.
I should say only one more thing. The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, in the course of his speech, with which I completely agreed, mentioned Comet 1. Let us appreciate that when we pass the Bill we are all bumping along the roof, as it

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were, of our technical knowledge. We are not taking risks, but we are bumping along right at the top; and when you do that, inevitably things could happen in the future. If new aircraft are produced there are, broadly speaking, three matters that must run parallel: design, construction and operation. If one of those things gets out of phase as it did in Comet 1 then you meet disaster. I pray that we shall have no disaster, but I have known many types of aircraft in America and Britain which have had to face setbacks, usually rather early in their career. I repeat, I pray that there will be no setback; but if there were such a setback, let us face it as setbacks have been faced in the past and let us be quite sure that our faith is sufficient to overcome such things if they ever happened.
My Lords, I support the Bill, having admiration and confidence in those who have brought us thus far that they will bring us (Britain and France) to a position where, on the initiative and faith of these two countries, the rest of the world will say "Well done!".
4.44 p.m.
LORD KINGS NORTON: My Lords, may I first say with what pleasure I have listened to the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye. He gave some indication of knowing that I am also a very old hand in this field. I like to remember him also in his earlier phase as Captain Balfour, and I remember the many things he did for aviation then. Like the noble Earl the Leader of the House, and the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, I too have had the privilege of travelling in Concorde and my trip confirmed what my specialised position as Chairman of the Air Registration Board had led me to conclude over nearly a decade, that this was not only one of the most remarkable technological advances in the whole history of aviation but it was an aeroplane which had incredible merits from the point of view of safety. In the whole of my time with that organisation, the Air Registration Board, while we had never had anything quite so complex to consider we had never had anything which gave us more confidence in its ultimate success. I thought it was a splendid aeroplane and my trip in it confirmed that.
May I say that travelling in Concorde is unsensational. I remember that because
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we had a short take-off and on a very small airfield a short landing, and there was a very noticeably powerful acceleration and a very noticeably strong deceleration. But in the air the aeroplane was quite ordinary and one was forced to conclude that travelling at Mach No. 2 and at 60,000 feet was very much the same as travelling much slower and much lower down on much more ordinary aeroplanes. For the passengers it was quiet, and it is now clear that the production Concorde will be quieter than aeroplanes like the D.C.8, the 707–420 and the V.C.10, aeroplanes which we more than tolerate to-day. Not only that, it will emit less smoke. Indeed, if your Lordships are interested in the quantitative data on these points, they were given in Written Answers in another place on December 6 last and are worth looking at.
I agree wholeheartedly with what has been said about the merits of high speed. Perhaps we are not always entirely sensible in the way we rush about. But there is not the slightest doubt that it there are two aeroplanes and aeroplane A can get to New York in six hours and the second, aeroplane B, can get there in three and a half hours, there will be a scramble and a queue to get on the faster aeroplane. It is my belief that Concorde will be flying full and doing a lot of good for France and the United Kingdom for a long time to come. The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, referred to the high load factor. I believe that this aeroplane will have a high load factor and in that will lie its ultimate economic success.
While we are in the habit of thinking of aeroplanes on the trans-Atlantic route almost to the exclusion of aeroplanes going in other directions I believe that in the future we shall be more concerned about how long it takes to get to the Antipodes. There I think this aeroplane is going to be a great boon. I am not, any more than the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye, particularly worried about the decision of certain North American airlines to surrender their options to buy Concorde. It has been unkindly suggested that perhaps they hoped that B.O.A.C., Air France and Iranair (which has not been mentioned so far but which has ordered three planes) would get cold feet and would follow

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suit, and that that would have been absolutely disastrous. As has been said this afternoon, not only would a lot of people be out of work but the way would have been clear for the American S.S.T. to go forward again and ultimately scoop the pool. In the case of Qantas and Lufthansa I believe that the chief difficulty is that of range. I believe that that is something that will be overcome. But my prophesy is that these airlines will indeed take the aeroplane and that it is far too soon to be pessimistic about Japan Air Lines and Middle East Airlines.
Thus, it seems to me that the way ahead is clear; and I must say that for one who from time to time has been depressed at some vacillations in Government policy, the confident way in which the noble Earl the Leader of the House spoke was a tremendous comfort. I feel now that we can go forward with tremendous confidence; with the B.O.A.C., the Air France and the Iranair orders there is certainly enough to go on with, and we shall, I think, between us put a girdle about the earth that will make Pan American and T.W.A.'s mouths water, if your Lordships will permit a slight change of metaphor. They and many others will be coming along with their cheque books, or their Barclaycards, or whatever they use, pleading to be allowed to join the Concorde club, and I think we shall be glad to have them. The Concorde will soon be part of the world's way of living. Over the years it will be stretched and expanded; it will be updated and up-rated. I think it will probably be with us until the end of the century, and those of your Lordships who are still around then will, I think, be proud of the part this country has played with France in bringing it into being.
4.51 p.m.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: My Lords. I should like briefly to intervene to welcome this Bill, and indeed I would welcome any Bill which assists the Concorde programme. Apart from possibly the noble Lord, Lord Avebury (who is not here, unfortunately) most of us are devotees of the Concorde. I am for that reason always amazed by the anti-Concorde campaign, what one might call the Goldring set, who claim on economic grounds that Concorde will become the
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most expensive blunder of the decade. I am amazed because it seems they have reached the completely opposite conclusion not only to the manufacturers' calculations, which no doubt they would claim to be biased, but also a number of surveys, particularly the Flight magazine survey, and, lastly, the critical review—I presume it came down this way—of the noble Lord, Lord Rothschild, who advises the Government. I am very glad that my noble friend the Leader of the House introduced the Bill with such a great deal of support for Concorde.
I believe that the Concorde project has become something of a symbol, indeed part of our spirit of national achievement. It is a project whose physical influence alone spreads to the constituencies of one in four of the Members of another place. It is a project which, as my noble friend has said, in size of programme and technical know-how comes second only to the American space programme in the last decade. And it is a project in which British aviation has again given the world, as the noble Lord, Lord Balfour, reminded us, a technical lead. Finally, it is a project which has clearly cemented European co-operation, and I believe it is a great and brilliant tribute both to Sud Aviation and B.A.C.
As to the cost of the programme so far, it is, I think, comforting to note that the late American S.S.T. programme, which was subsequently cancelled, and which had spent over £1.000 million at the time of cancellation, had succeeded in getting only to the mock-up stage. If one compares the present Concorde programme, this would seem very good value. I am interested in the environmental statistics that have been published about the Concorde on its present performance: that at present it is quieter on take-off than the VC 10, quieter on landing than the Boeing 707 and quieter in fly-over noise than the Boeing 747.
The recent cancellations of the options for sale clearly are a setback to the production line programme, but one notices that practically no airline—I was going to say none of the airlines until the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, mentioned Pan Am—condemned Concorde on its operating economics. What is abundantly clear is that at the present time, in the present financial climate of airlines, it is virtually impossible for any airline to purchase

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Concorde. Indeed, as I understand it, by cancelling the options many of these airlines were able to recoup capital payments they had put down.
That brings me to the first question I should like to put to my noble friend. If he accepts that airlines generally at present are financially powerless; if he accepts that the success of Concorde depends wholly on getting it into service, and if he accepts that the present high rate of interest means a number of the leasing companies have set up terms unattractive to airlines, why could not the British and French Governments, in the long-term interest of Concorde, set up a Government lend-leasing organisation? Surely this would boost Concorde and get it into service.
The second point I would put to my noble friend is on the question of the proposed routes. I am still personally a little befogged as to exactly what progress has been made and by whom over negotiations on both landing rights and overflying rights. Is it up to the operators, B.O.A.C. and Air France at the moment, or the respective Governments to become involved, and has America agreed to anything at the moment? On fares, one would be interested to know whether IATA will eventually be the final arbiter as to the rate.
The third point I should like to put to my noble friend is how the Government see the future development of Concorde. Is it not perhaps time for the European partners to discuss American participation? It is, I believe, very clear that at some time America will want to come hack into the supersonic market, particularly with the Russian "Konkordski" on the way. Would it not be an advantage all round to invite the vast American resources to play a part now, or do we want to see the Americans setting up their own Concorde programme?
In conclusion, I would again welcome the Bill and welcome the Government's support, and indeed the personal interest of my noble friend, who has given support both in the air and on the ground. I would also add my congratulations to both manufacturers, to the 600 British sub-contractors and 30,000 British people involved in the programme, for the brilliant achievement, and for bringing Concorde to the threshold of an exciting era of supersonic travel.
4.58 p.m.
LORD GORE-BOOTH: My Lords, it may seem that in this late stage of a debate that already comes late in the Concorde argument there is very little left to say. None the less, those of us, and as it seems most of your Lordships, who are interested in the pursuit and success of this project have a certain duty to pronounce themselves in the atmosphere where, outside your Lordships' House, so much of the media are at present the victims of the negative point of view. I feel that we all help this project if, although we say things which have been said before, at least we say them.
I should also like to add my voice in support of the Bill in a somewhat different capacity from anyone who has spoken, and that is as one who, since the Chicago Conference of 1944, spent 25 years at least part of the time on the fringes or in air diplomacy and such efforts as diplomacy could give to British manufacturers to sell British aircraft. If one looks over that period it is a slightly sad one. True, we had a few great world successes, notably the Vickers Viscount, and I hope that from that period will grow world success in our vertical takeoff effort, provided the disagreements between progressives and environmentalists do not prevent it. I shall come back to that point in a moment. But the period is sadly full of high ideals, brilliant experiments and then, somhow, failure.
The noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, spoke of the Comet, as did the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye. We somehow never got that going again properly after its initial world success and disaster. Again, there was the VC.10—the best aircraft of its kind in its generation, without any doubt—which suddenly failed to become a world success because we failed to support it. Again, in a different sphere we might have had a similar success with the TSR 2. I do not comment or blame anyone for the discontinuance of that programme, but it adds an air of sadness to the efforts of this nation which, if it has brilliance, has particular brilliance in aircraft technology. So when one has been thinking about the Concorde project over all these years, all the time this pattern has been in one's mind, that if we get so far, for goodness' sake! let us then not once again falter

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and say, "Well, we tried hard but it is really too bad."
The noble Earl who introduced the debate emphasised—and I thought very rightly—two features of this programme which give the present moment a very special importance. He mentioned it as a symbol of co-operation with our French friends and neighbours. But, if I may say so, I thought he understated that a little, because it is not just a symbol of Europe and of Anglo-French co-operation; it is a symbol that, in the worst years of Anglo-French relations in this century, we had faith enough in the ultimate validity of Anglo-French friendship and capability to go on with this project, despite all political disagreements. The other point which the noble Earl made, which was to my mind of an extremely valid nature, was his reference to this new Bill's being essentially a production Bill as opposed to an R. and D. Bill, because that is really the key of the argument against those who still want us to stop. Certainly, during the 1960s, it was entirely legitimate to criticise, to oppose the programme, to hope that it would not happen because the amounts of money involved were unforeseeable. But now that we are actually at the stage of this plane's flying—and noble Lords have flown in it and have expressed the kind of sentiments that we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Kings Norton—that is no longer valid as an argument.
Quite apart from anything else, we have a great national product which it is now our job as a nation, and a French job as the French nation, to sell. It is no longer a question of saying that we should stop; it is a question of getting on with the job when, if we look at it in perspective, we have really reached the point of no return. I found this sentiment very much when I was on a recent visit to Australia and Japan. I found that our salesmen had been to both countries, and were going again, and there was a sort of mutter going on in the atmosphere, "Why do we have to try to sell this brilliant creation to people who are asking us very profound questions, with the background of a barrage of denigration from people in our own country?" That seemed to me to be not only regrettable in itself but totally mistimed as a way of going on.
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Now we are reaching the stage of accomplishment—and, indeed, we have reached it—I think it is important not to oversell in this sense: we must recognise the environmental difficulties. I have studied to some extent the "anti" literature, but I found, to my encouragement, that even that literature does not say, "This cannot be done." If I understood the diagrams aright, they seem to show that you can go to Australia without a desperate effect on environment as you go. Like other noble Lords, I hope that the noble Earl will say just a word on the environmental factor and the degree to which, week by week, the prospects of overcoming that grow greater. In particular, I noticed that his honourable friend in another place was not able to say anything about developments in regard to noise, but I hope that what the noble Lord, Lord Kings Norton, had to say can be confirmed.
Taking this apparent conflict a little deeper, I would suggest that the Concorde debate is something of a symbol of the cease fire which will have to take place some day between what I have called the progressives and the environmentalists. I think there is a disposition on both sides to make war, and I am quite sure that the future of our country and the future of the human race is hound up in a conscious effort to reconcile positive elements of progress, technologically and otherwise, with the very welcome necessity to protect the environment where we can. If both sides can only approach this project in that spirit, I feel that a great deal will have been learned about the relationship between progress and environment which we still need to learn.
In the meantime, I agree very strongly with those noble Lords who have suggested that we may now, with the French, have produced the definitive plane for some time to come. There is only one proviso about this—a proviso which has been mentioned by several noble Lords, notably the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Inchrye—that we do not have a kind of Comet disaster; and of course we cannot guarantee its avoidance. One can only express the hope that the combined design and technological skill of the French and British aircraft industries, plus the work of those who test this aircraft, will be such that any such disaster is very much less likely; and if there

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were to be any such, I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Balfour, is right in saying that we must regard it as one of those things which happen when we are on the fringes of science, and that we must not be deterred even by that.
In a poem written over a hundred years ago by a strange poet, Arthur Hugh Clough, he used in a stanza the word "fliers", though not in the sense that we are using it now. In the same stanza he said,
"If hopes are dupes, fears may be liars".
I think we have got beyond the stage of hopes being dupes, and I feel sure that fears are now liars. It is in that spirit that I join with other noble Lords in supporting the Bill and in expressing the hope that we are now on the threshold of a great and long-lasting success.
5.8 p.m.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, I intervene only briefly, but I think it would be an act of cowardice on my part if I did not, since I am so far the only opponent of the Concorde project who has ventured to speak. May I say at once that of course I do not oppose this Bill. This Bill is a Money Bill, it has passed another place and, of course, will not be opposed in this House. I wish I could share the enthusiasm of so many of my noble friends. I think particularly of the splendid enthusiasm shown by my old friend Lord Balfour of Inchrye. I do not know whether he recollects it, but over 30 years ago he, as a pilot—he was also Under-Secretary of State for Air at the time—flew me to my constituency and I have never had more confidence in any pilot. I also heard with sympathy the expert views of the noble Lord, Lord Kings Norton, and, in spite of my disapproval and opposition to the Concorde project, I confess freely that if in spite of all the opposition to this project it eventually goes through and it is possible to fly to Australia in the short time that the Concorde may make possible, I may well be a passenger.
My Lords, the reason I am opposed to the Concorde project is, first of all, that I am convinced it will not bring the material rewards of which the supporters of this project are so confident. I also believe it will do so much damage to other values that it will in fact make the world a rather poorer place. But, my Lords, neither of those facts con-
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stitutes my main objection to the Concorde. My main objection to the Concorde is the frightful misuse of scarce resources. What is so often ignored by my enthusiastic friends, when they advocate throwing ever-increasing millions into this project, is that if all these millions are thrown into this prospect then great sums, or even far lesser sums, cannot be thrown into other projects which I think are of much more value. I shall not trouble the House to develop that argument now, because my sole purpose in rising is to say that of course we do not oppose this Bill, a Money Bill approved by another place, but I do not want it to be assumed that, because all those who have spoken have been in favour of the project, there are not a great many people who are convinced—and I hope it will not surprise noble Lords if I say convinced from motives of what appears to them to be patriotism—that it is not a good cause, but a bad one. With the possible exception of the last speaker, I think nobody has suggested that opposition to the Concorde must be unpatriotic. I have forgotten the noble Lord's exact words, but in his admirably clear speech, which I enjoyed as did every other Member, he had one phrase which obviously showed that he thought the people who took my sort of view deplorable people—and that, of course, may be so.
My Lords, I may say that I am not wholly taking this view after the event. I expressed my doubts in a debate already referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, in his speech this afternoon. He said that it was a debate of nearly ten years ago: it was actually a little more. It was a debate in this House on November 13, 1962, and it arose on a Motion for Papers by the late Lord Brabazon of Tara. In that debate Lord Brabazon, who was a great friend of aviation and not at all ignorant on the subject (as I know everybody who knew him will remember I rather think he was the first airman in this country to get his flying certificate) expressed his great doubts about this Concorde project before the vital agreement had been signed. I intervened in that debate to express my doubts about it; but I followed somebody who spoke with as much authority as Lord Brabazon on the subject of aviation, and that was the late Lord Swinton. In that debate both Lord

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Brabazon and Lord Swinton expressed their great doubts about this project. Lord Swinton said that he would not say that this project must not go ahead, but he explained his doubts and asked the Government for arguments on the other side which would persuade him to the contrary. I took the same line. I thought it was a bad project, and I ventured to say various things which I still think to-day; and I think that events in the interval have strengthened my opinion.
What I want to say to the House is that the anti-Concorde line is not something confined to a few cranks. It was argued with conviction by my friend the late Lord Brabazon of Tara and by my friend the late Lord Swinton. Neither of them can be described as wholly ignorant of the subject, or as lukewarm on aviation. I believe that their doubts were right; I believe that the doubts I then expressed are right; and I believe it would be quite wrong if the impression were given in this House that there was only one view possible on this matter of the development of the Concorde. The object of my intervening is that I wish that to be made clear. But I want to make equally clear that, of course, I offer no opposition whatever to the passage of this Bill.
LORD GORE-BOOTH: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down may I make a comment? I certainly respect the motives of all those who are or have been against this project, and certainly accept that they are entirely sincere. What I was intending to say—and I thank the noble Lord for his kind comment on my speech—was that a certain point comes when it is no longer in the interests of our industry, or of those engaged in the project, to take up very strongly attitudes which obstruct our salesmen, but that the moment has come to do our best for it.
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord.
5.18 p.m.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I think there has been agreement—and I am quite certain that I would carry my noble friend Lord Conesford with me here—on a number of matters, but on two matters
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above all. One is a personal factor and one a technical factor. The personal factor is a general consent, I feel, and a general feeling of deep admiration for all those who are involved in this great project. I should like again to express my admiration. I have seen something of those involved in what I think my noble friend Lord Balfour called "the front end of the project", and I have seldom seen such dedication in human beings as that in those who are involved in the front end of this project. Secondly, I believe there is universal agreement in your Lordships' House, from which my noble friend Lord Conesford would not dissent—he was right to give expression to his sincerely held contrary view, but I think he would also agree with me here —that this is a remarkable technical achievement. I would agree with what has been said by, I think, the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton and the noble Lord, Lord Avebury: that Concorde at the present time is up to, or indeed in certain respects beyond, the expectations of the design which were originally held out.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I was remiss. I wonder whether I might interrupt and echo the noble Earl's remarks of congratulation for the team, and in particular for that remarkable character, Sir George Edwards.
EARL JELLICOE: I very much accept that, my Lords. We all admire one of the very great men of our aviation industry.
I would also agree with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kings Norton, speaking from a background of very wide experience of the aviation industry, that in this plane, as in almost all planes, there is a considerable degree of potential stretch, be it in matters such as the reduction of engine noise or in capacity or in range. Range may be crucial as the manufacturers continue their sales campaign which will go on over the years. It is crucial on certain routes, as the noble Lord knows—for example, Singapore, Sydney, Anchorage, Tokyo, and one can think of many others. It is my understanding here that these questions of stretch and development are under consideration by the manufacturers on both sides of the Channel but as yet they have not agreed on formulated proposals in these respects to put to the

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two Governments concerned. But there is inevitably a price tag attached to all developments.
The noble Lord, Lord Gore-Booth, rather invited me to say something about some of the environmental factors—the agonising environmental factors, as I think they were termed by the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition. Perhaps I should, briefly, as a layman, respond to that invitation: I say, "as a layman", and I mean it, but as a layman who has had some personal experience of this aircraft and has also made a point of getting as much understanding as a layman can of these environmental factors. They are indeed important, and I speak as one who is as deeply concerned, and has been over a rather long period of time, with environmental questions as are most Members of your Lordships' House; I think I may claim that.
Four areas are usually involved here, and the first is the area of smoke. I know only too well (and here again I speak from some personal experience) that the prototype Concordes, 002 for example, in which I flew to the Far East, are very smoky indeed in their engines. I also happen to know, however, that the engines of the production aircraft will be virtually smoke-free and as good as the best—and this is putting it mildly—of any of the large, subsonic civil aircraft either flying at the present time or to fly. All this has been confirmed by the flights of the first pre-production aircraft based at Toulouse. Its performance hitherto has confirmed in practice what I think most of us knew to be the case in theory.
So far as supersonic overflight is concerned, this is essentially a matter for the individual Governments to decide on the basis of their own situation, their own geography and the benefits they feel they stand to gain from supersonic travel. Here, speaking personally, I would say that I have always held it to be inconceivable that there would be any question of Concorde's operating over any substantial centres of population. However, we all know that some two-thirds of the world's surface is covered by sea and that many of the most profitable air routes lie over the oceans. The fact that some 400 hours of supersonic flying have taken place over busy sea lanes without causing any com-
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plaint confirms, I believe, that no problems will arise certainly in the maritime environment. When prototype 002 went out to Australia last summer, with the agreement of the Australian authorities it flew supersonic over a large chunk of Australia, and, rightly, elaborate tests were laid on by the Australian authorities. But to me the clinching test was the answer given by an outspoken female of one of those small hamlets over which we flew. The lady in question was eight months pregnant, and she was quoted on the Australian wireless as saying, in the inimitable Australian way, "I don't know what all the fuss was about. Concorde flew over me and my baby, and the little devil didn't even give a kick!"
Then there have been fears expressed that Concorde's operation might reduce the ozone content of the upper atmosphere and even put life at risk on this planet. Again, all this has been carefully examined and considered by our Meteoro- logical Office; and I think, it is generally considered that in meteorology we are ahead or abreast of the best in the world. Our studies have made it clear that the effects of operating even a large number of Concorde aircraft would not lead to any harmful effects. Again, I know from personal knowledge how carefully all this has been examined and monitored.
Finally, there is the question of engine noise, the fourth of these environmental factors. I should like once again to make it clear that the Government fully share the general concern about aircraft noise and the need to reduce it to the lowest possible level. We must recognise that the special requirements of a supersonic aircraft necessarily impose constraints upon manufacturers; notably engines of high bypass ratio, such as the Rolls-Royce RB 211, and those used in other recent wide-bodied aircraft are potentially very quiet, but they could not be used in an aircraft such as Concorde. But the technical attack upon Concorde's noise, both in landing and in take-off, is being strenuously pursued, and I can confirm what the noble Lord, Lord Kings Norton, and what my noble friend Lord Kinnoull have said: that there is no reason to believe that when Concorde comes into operation it will be any noisier than existing subsonic jets. Perhaps in this connection I should mention that when my right honourable friend the Secretary

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of State for Trade and Industry and my right honourable friend the Minister for Aerospace were in Washington recently they had long discussions with the United States Administration at the highest level, and it was confirmed to them in this context that the United States Administration had no intention of placing obstacles in the way of Concorde so far as operation into and out of the United States was concerned.
LORD AVEBURY: My Lords, is it not possible that the Federal authorities would place no obstacles in our way but individual airport authorities, particularly in New York, might decide not to allow Concorde to land? I know it has never arisen, because we have not asked for permission, but is not this a theoretical danger?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, that is a theoretical possibility, yes. But I think the attitude of the United States Administration is very important in this respect and it has been clearly expressed.
May I turn from the environmental factors, which I have looked into rather carefully, to the commercial and financial aspects of this subject—and I must accelerate, like Concorde, as otherwise I shall be detaining your Lordships too long. I should like first of all to say that there was possibly a slight misunderstanding between me and the noble Lord, Lord Avebury. I would be the first to concede the enormous growth potential of the mass air travel market, and that that market will, broadly speaking, be catered for in the existing or the new generation of wide-bodied subsonic aircraft—I thought I had said that, and think I have. But, by the same token, I am utterly convinced there is a very good market indeed in the higher bracket, as it were, for the type of executive travel which we have been speaking about in fast supersonic aircraft of the Concorde type. That is, for the reasons which have been given, among them the extraordinary cut in travelling time and all that that means, graphically illustrated by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton. And I absolutely agree here with what the noble Lord, Lord Kings Norton, said, that sometimes here we are too mesmerised by the North Atlantic route—very important, three hours or three hours plus as compared with seven—but there are the
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South Atlantic route and all the wide reaches of the Pacific. This was very evident to me—and perhaps I am "banging on" too long about my personal experience—when flying from Singapore through the Philippines to Tokyo, seeing what Tokyo/London would be, and then Tokyo South. As I say, this became very evident to me, and I think we should keep our horizon rather wide here in thinking of the market opportunities of this aircraft. May I again confirm what the noble Lord, Lord Kings Norton, said so far as comfort is concerned. Concorde is certainly as comfortable as any other aircraft in which I have flown; and I can only say that I found air travel in Concorde as boring as air travel in any other aircraft, apart from the advantage of taking about half the time.
My Lords, so far as the routes are concerned, I can confirm to my noble friend Lord Kinnoull that the central operators are examining the route pattern but B.O.A.C., for example, are still formulating the best routes to meet the services on which they consider Concorde could be most profitably operated. Preliminary talks have, of course, been held with some of the interested Governments but I think it is too early yet to indicate what the precise routes will be. This is a very important aspect of the matter. It is certainly one which the Government have under very close attention indeed. My noble friend was right to touch on that.
So far as IATA fares are concerned—again a question asked of me by my noble friend—the fares to be charged by airlines operating Concorde will have to be discussed in the usual way within IATA and with other Governments, but with services not due to start until 1975 B.O.A.C. has yet to embark on these talks.
So far as options are concerned, the present position, which the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, asked me about, is that there are 30 minus options held and of course the 9 existing orders by B.O.A.C., 4 Air France, 3 Continental, 6 Eastern, 3 Braniff (who have, of course, a route pattern to South America which on the face of it looks extremely suitable for supersonic operation); Qantas 4, J.A.L. 3—and I think one should not be unduly impressed one way or the other by the newspaper reports on the J.A.L. position; Lufthansa 3, India 2, Middle East 2—and the noble Lord quite rightly drew

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attention to the keen interest expressed by M.E.A.—and Iranair 1. In addition Iranair have signed a letter of intent to purchase two aircraft and the Chinese National Airline has signed a preliminary purchase agreement for three aircraft. I would only endorse in addition what the noble Lord, Lord Kings Norton, has said, that one should not be unduly impressed by the action of those airlines, including a number of very important ones, who have cancelled or not taken up their options. It is only natural that some should wait until the last possible moment, and perhaps some of the more experienced will wait until the last possible moment.
My Lords, turning to finance, I should like to repeat the precise position as I understand it. Not all the £150 million has been spent; £45 million has been spent, but something approaching £125 million has been committed. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, asked me: if no orders, or no further orders, were placed, why should we need sums of the type envisaged in the Bill before your Lordships? First of all, I would not accept any suggestion that there will be no further orders; but I would say again, which is implicit in my earlier words, that manufacturing advanced aircraft efficiently necessarily depends on maintaining a steady flow of work and the commitments apparently incurred by the manufacturers will shortly exceed the limits. Consequently, not to approve an increase in the financial limits would have the effect of bringing production, even taking into account the aircraft for present customers and those who have expressed a firm intention, to a halt and any lower limit than the one proposed would inhibit the ability of our manufacturers to respond with their French partners to further orders as they are placed.
My Lords, it is quite clear to me that in the highly competitive ambiance of the aviation industry we could not expect to exploit the aircraft fully if key and critical sales had to be held up while Parliament went through the process of affirming an order. I would agree, of course, that this matter needs very careful watching, and this it will receive from the two Governments. The precise rate of production can only be decided, in view of the number of variables involved, in the light of circumstances as they
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develop; but I hope that your Lordships will accept that it is our intention to keep a very close watch with our French partners and in conjunction with the manufacturers on this aspect of the matter.
I think we should be realistic so far as security on the loans is concerned, and we should also remember that the previous Administration accepted that the order of resources required to finance Concorde in advance of payment from customers was too great for British manufacturers to bear, and the present Bill accepts this premise which was spelt out clearly by the then Minister. But as I have said, arrangements have been negotiated with the manufacturers whereby they will share profits and losses with the Government and so provide them with the incentive to achieve the best out-turn on this investment. I think this is a fair position, my Lords, and I am sure it is a realistic position for the Government to have adopted. As for the single production line, which I think was a point which the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, put to me, there has been no proposal, as far as I know, for such a concentration of production. Clearly it will be looked at if one is received but I know of no such proposal at the present time.
My Lords, regarding the question of leasing arrangements raised by my noble friend Lord Kinnoull, I would only say that Concorde is being offered for sale with the normal credit support of export credit guarantee agencies both in this country and in France; but we do not exclude airlines wishing to purchase through leasing organisations if that is what they want and provided this does not increase the Government's liabilities. A number of such schemes are, I know, being prepared and it is for those concerned to advance their proposals to the airline and the manufacturers. This, again, is something which we have, and will keep, under very close review.
My Lords, I have spoken long enough, but I should like to say that I believe that this debate, despite the sturdy, robust opposition of my noble friend Lord Conesford, will give great encouragement to those who have confidence in this great project. Above all, it

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will give great confidence and encouragement to those most closely involved, be it in the board room, in the pilot's seat or the shop floor, with the "sharp end" of this project.
In conclusion, my Lords, I would say that whatever we or others may decide to do, I think we should be wise to remember that already there are some 10 T.U.144s, the Soviet supersonic civil air transport, flying, or in advanced stages of production—a point that was hardly mentioned in this debate, but one I think worth bearing in mind. It is a point which bears on the question put to me by the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, about over-flying the great reaches of the Soviet Union. Undoubtedly, the United States has the capacity to enter this field and is at present pursuing research in a not inexpensive form towards the American S.S.T. Anyone advocating that we, having set our hands to this plough, should, at the moment when we are ready to drive a furrow, abandon it, must, I think, ponder the advisability of Britain, France and Western Europe opting out of a dimension of human transportation which I believe could well be crucial for the next 50 or, indeed, 100 years. I believe those who oppose this project should ponder that consideration.
On Question, Bill read 2a; Committee negatived.

PROTECTION OF AIRCRAFT BILL [H.L.]
5.42 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
On Question, Bill read 3a.
Clause 9 [Power to impose restrictions in relation to aircraft]:
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 9, line 14, at end insert—
("( ) In giving any direction under subsection (2) of this section the Secretary of State shall allow, and shall specify in the direction, such period as appears to him to be reasonably required for carrying out the modifications or alterations or installing the additional appara-
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tus or equipment in question; and the direction shall not take effect before the end of the period so specified.")
The noble Lord said: My Lords, at the Report stage I indicated that the Government accepted the idea contained in an Amendment, moved by my noble friend Lord Trefgarne, to allow a period, which he suggested might be 90 days, for compliance with any direction relating to the modification of aircraft. The Amendment which I am now moving seeks to give effect to my noble friend's point. It does not stipulate a set period for compliance, in order to permit a degree of flexibility which we believe to be necessary, not least in the interest of the airline operators. As noble Lords will recognise, a fixed period for compliance might be too long in some cases and not long enough in others. We believe that the period should be determined in the light of the circumstances of a particular case. I hope that this Amendment, together with the existing provisions for consultation, provide a sound basis on which to deal with any modification to aircraft, and I beg to move.
LORD TREFGARNE: My Lords, I am greatly obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, for moving this Amendment which substantially meets the point I made, and I hope that it will receive your Lordships' approval.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved Amendment No. 2:
After Clause 13, insert the following new clause:
Special provisions as to certain directions under s. 11
".—(1) This section applies to any direction given under section 11 of this Act which—

(a) requires a person to take measures consisting of or including the construction, execution, alteration, demolition or removal of a building or other works, and

(b) does not contain a statement that the measures are urgently required and that accordingly the direction is to take effect immediately.

(2) At any time before the end of the period of thirty days beginning with the date on which a direction to which this section applies is given, the person to whom the direction is given may serve on the Secretary of State a notice in writing objecting to the direction, on the grounds that the measures specified in the direction, in so far as they relate to the construction, execution, alteration,

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demolition or removal of a building or other works,—

(a) are unnecessary and should be dispensed with, or

(b) are excessively onerous or inconvenient and should be modified in a manner specified in the notice.

(3) Where the person to whom such a direction is given serves a notice under subsection (2) of this section objecting to the direction, the Secretary of State shall consider the grounds of the objection and shall serve on him a notice in writing either—

(a) confirming the direction as originally given, or

(b) confirming it subject to one or more modifications specified in the notice under this subsection, or

(c) withdrawing the direction; and the direction shall not take effect until it has been confirmed (with or without modifications) by a notice served under this subsection."

The noble Lord said: My Lords, the purpose of this Amendment is to provide that unless the Secretary of State specifies that a direction concerning the construction, execution, alteration, demolition or removal of a building or other works should take effect immediately, 30 days will be allowed for representations. Until the Secretary of State has reached his decision on the representations no action will be taken on the direction in question. The Amendment gives effect to an Amendment, again proposed by my noble friend Lord Trefgarne, and on Report I said I would be prepared to consider it. This Amendment is in the form of a new clause and I think it reflects the views expressed on this point by my noble friend. In effect, subsection (1) confines the new clause to directions which relate to buildings and works which are not expressly stated to be urgent. In the case of such directions, under subsection (2) 30 days are allowed for representations to be made to the Secretary of State about the need for the direction or the form it takes. Subsection (3) lays down the way the Secretary of State is to respond to any representations and ensures that the direction shall not take effect until it has been confirmed. I hope that this meets the point made by my noble friend. We have tried to meet it, and I beg to move the Amendment.
LORD TREFGARNE: My Lords, I seem to recall that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stow Hill, had something to say about these matters when we dis-
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cussed them at the last stage of the Bill. So far as my point is concerned, the Government Amendment more than meets the requirements, and I hope that it will meet with your Lordships' approval.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I think we ought to say that although it meets the requirements of the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, it does not go so far as my noble and learned friend Lord Stow Hill and I wished to go. An appeal to the Secretary of State against a direction by the Secretary of State is scarcely going to an independent authority. But I realise that the noble Lord has gone apparently as far as he can to meet the point that was raised, and a quarter of a loaf is probably better than no bread.
LORD STOW HILL: My Lords, I do not wish to add anything, except to thank the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, for his consideration of the arguments which I ventured to advance. I am grateful to him.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I considered carefully what was said by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stow Hill, who was good enough to put his points to me after the last debate we had. We have gone as far as we can, because we feel that the Secretary of State has to keep control of these directions.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 21 [Reimbursement of expenses incurred for purposes to which Part II applies]:
LORD TREFGARNE LORD TREFGARNE moved Amendment No. 3:
Page 19, line 33, at end insert—
("(3) The Secretary of State may with the approval of the Treasury and out of monies provided by Parliament reimburse costs incurred in repairing or replacing cargo damaged or destroyed by persons carrying out a search in accordance with a directive under this Act:
Provided that no costs so incurred shall be reimbursed where the search reveals an article or substance prohibited under this Act.")
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is in the nature of a probing Amendment and arises out of some remarks which I made at the last stage of the Bill relating to the position of third parties who might not be either operators or airfield owners and who suffer damage

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when a search of their property is ordered; in particular, a cargo that might be on board an aircraft or about to be loaded on to it. I had in mind, for example, such a case as once occurred to me when some tanks of liquid nitrogen formed the cargo. Had they been searched it would have released all the liquid nitrogen and thus destroyed the cargo completely. There is also the possibility, and this frequently happens, that the cargo may consist of medical supplies, in particular sterile wound dressings that have to be flown at short notice in large quantities to a disaster area. If these dressings are opened and exposed to the atmosphere, they become useless. I wonder whether my noble friend can give me any assurance on this point or even—dare I mention it!—accept my Amendment.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, I mentioned this matter in general terms during the discussions on the previous stage of the Bill. I think that the compensation is low, and if the noble Lord could extend it, even to the extent referred to in the Amendment, it would be an improvement; but I would go even further.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I undertook on Report stage to consider the question of compensation to third parties affected by directions to the extent that compensation is not already available under Clause 20. As I acknowledged at the time, and I think the House recognised, there are a number of instances where some form of compensation might seem to be appropriate, to the extent that they are not insurable risks or covered by existing insurance; but equally there are others where it would not seem reasonable to compensate a loss. In the time available, I have endeavoured to have inquiries made concerning how far this kind of thing would be covered by insurance, and I am informed, in what might be called an off-the-cuff answer—because, naturally, it is not possible for insurers to consider a proposal unless they have all the details of the proposal—that in most circumstances claims for damage would be met. An exception would occur if the policy contained an exclusion clause due to war activities, and it would then be necessary to consider
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whether the security situation arose in pursuance of such activities.
I recognise `that my noble friend has sought to reflect this problem in his Amendment by confining it to the damage and destruction of cargo in the course of a search, and only where a firearm, explosive or some other dangerous article has not been discovered. I am afraid, however, that even though his provision is not mandatory, it involves a substantial extension of the obligation as to compensation. I agree with my noble friend Lord Selkirk that, even so, my noble friend Lord Trefgarne has confined his Amendment to cargo, and it may well be that cases might arise in other areas where similar arguments would apply.
It is the deserving cases, whether related to cargo or not, with which I believe we are all concerned, and while I cannot accept the Amendment I can give my noble friend an assurance that the Government have noted the feelings on this point. We shall be prepared to receive on an ad hoc basis and without formal commitment, any claims the noble Lord mentioned in the Report stage and to consider some form of ex gratia payment in appropriate cases. I should add that one would expect normal prudence to play its part in this kind of case and for people to insure in the normal way. I hope that with this assurance my noble friend will be prepared to withdraw his Amendment.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord would see to it that the matter is considered a little further before the Bill goes to another place. It seems a little invidious to say that there shall be compensation in the case of fixed assets—and there is provision there—and then draw the line so far as goods, cargo and assets which happen to be in the aircraft are concerned. From time to time when we have put forward suggestions for improvement of the Bill the noble Lord has rested his case on the fact that he hopes these powers will not be used very often: and certainly I cannot imagine that there will be many cases where tanks of liquid nitrogen will be exposed to the atmosphere. Nevertheless, there may be cases. There may be cases where luggage of one kind or another is ripped open by order of the authorities in order to see whether

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there are any unauthorised weapons or other articles there. In such cases, I should have thought that one ought not to have to rely upon private insurance; in such cases there ought to be special provision for compensation. In that case, therefore, I wonder whether the noble Lord would undertake—although he has gone some way, and I am sure the spirit in which he has spoken will be appreciated—to see whether something more could be done.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I think the difficulty here is to distinguish in a Bill between the deserving cases—and the noble Lord used a similar word —and those cases where, with greater prudence, the risk could have been covered. This is difficult, and I think it is not unreasonable for the Government to reserve to themselves the right to have a look at cases to see whether a payment should be made ex gratia in particular circumstances or not. If we tried to devise particular provisions here we might well find that the Government were not able to go so far as they could if their hands were left free to make an ex gratia payment. I do not say that this will be so in every case but it is a consideration. But, as I say, we have not really had time between the last stage and this one to look fully into this point. I quite accept what the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, says, that this is something which should be looked into further. However, that will not be before the Bill parts from this House—we cannot do that except in the course of the passage of the Bill in another place.
LORD TREFGARNE: My Lords, when I moved the Amendment I said that it was in the nature of a probing Amendment, and for that reason it would not be appropriate for me to press it. I am obliged to my noble friend for the assurance he has given. When he or his right honourable friends consider this matter further, would they please bear in mind that insurance cover for this sort of damage is difficult to obtain and very expensive? It would not be imprudent of carriers not to have such insurance. It is not part of the normal cover provided: indeed, in most of the operations with which I have been concerned it certainly was not there other than in exceptional
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cases. Having said that, I beg leave to with the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 24 [Application to Channel Islands, Isle of Man and other countries]:
LORD DRUMALBYN LORD DRUMALBYN moved Amendment No. 4:
Page 22, line 29, after ("extending") insert ("any of").
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is in the nature of a drafting Amendment. to remove a possible ambiguity in subsection (2) of Clause 24 in connection with the extension of the Act to the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man and other countries. What we want to be able to do is to extend all or part of the Act. As drafted, the clause might be interpreted as providing only for the extension of all the provisions or none, and thus not providing the flexibility, for example, to confine the extension to Part I, with or without any other provisions in the Bill. The Amendment is intended to remove any doubt about this. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 25 [Short title and commencement]:
5.58 p.m.
LORD TREFGARNE LORD TREFGARNE moved Amendment No. 5:
Page 22, line 41, at end insert:
("(3) The following sections of this Act shall cease to have effect three years after the date of commencement—

(a) Sections 7 to 18,

(b) Sections 19 to 21, and

(c) The Schedule.").

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I am in some difficulty with this Amendment. because unfortunately it has been wrongly printed. I think it was probably my fault. As a result of the somewhat disjointed printing arrangements at present in force, I did not get my copy of the Amendment as soon as I should; the post is disrupted because of the trains, and that does not help either. The Amendment that I should prefer to be moving would be to include Clause 19 of the Bill, and to exclude Clauses 7 to 18, Clauses 20 and 21 and the Schedule. I am advised that I am unable to move a manuscript Amendment to my Amendment, so I will have merely to move the

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Amendment, listen to my noble friend's objections—which I am sure there will be —and then perhaps withdraw it.
However, the purpose of this Amendment would have been to restrict the duration of this Bill when it becomes an Act, or certainly what is essentially Part II of the Bill, to a period of three years. Your Lordships will know that Part II was not originally part of the legislation that came before us. When we gave this Bill a Second Reading, it was really only Part I and significant parts of Part III. Part II was introduced only at the Committee stage. It gives to the Secretary of State very wide and substantial powers which, I am told, are unprecedented in our legislative history. I am of the opinion that, despite the best endeavours of all Members of your Lordships' House (and not least those of the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn), there are still a number of defects in this Bill and it would be wrong to put it on the Statute Book for ever and a day. I have the feeling that honourable and right honourable gentlemen in another place will take the same view, and it may well be that they will impose the same sort of restriction as I am now seeking to impose. For the moment, I will simply move this Amendment and then, having listened to what my noble friend and other noble Lords have to say, I shall probably ask leave to withdraw it.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for pointing out what the Amendment was intended to say. I am bound to tell him that even if it were amended it would still not be quite right in form—I am sure he will not mind my saying this to him. For example, parts of Clause 23 are relevant only to Part II and part of Clause 17 was included, as my noble friend will remember, as Clause 6 of the original Bill. I am afraid I cannot recommend the House to accept this Amendment because of the reason for which the Government are seeking these powers; in other words, because of the escalation in the form and intensity of violence against civil aviation in recent times, and particularly within the last 12 months. Powers are being sought solely in the interests of airlines, airport authorities, passengers and air crews and for the limited purposes set out in Clause 7 of the Bill.
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It surely is impossible to place a time limit, whether of three years or any other period, on the incidence of violence. The extent of the threat of hijacking and other acts of violence against civil aviation will no doubt vary from time to time in the future but there is, much to our regret, no sign of a diminution in the threat, nor is there any sound reason to expect, while there is as much political unrest in the world as there is at the present time, that such violence will be eradicated in three years. My noble friend Lord Balfour at an earlier stage sought to make the Act renewable after three years for a year at a time. There was an objection to that, and my noble friend has sought to overcome it by trying to bring to an end only Part H and related clauses—I think this is the purpose—after three years.
LORD TREFGARNE: My Lords, if my noble friend will allow me, he will recollect that at a previous stage one of the objections was that we could not put a definite period to our obligations under the Montreal Convention.
LORD DRUMALBYN: Yes, my Lords; I was being explanatory and not attempting to criticise my noble friend. I was saying that at a previous stage my noble friend Lord Balfour had sought to make the whole Bill expire after three years unless it was renewed, and then to make it renewable from year to year. My noble friend has taken the point that it would not really be appropriate to treat Part I, at any rate, in this way. What he is proposing is to bring the whole of Part II and the related clauses to an end without any power of renewal after three years. But against that background it surely would be inappropriate to set any limit on the duration of the Bill, whether related to Part II or to Part I. We are anxious to maintain a voluntary system so far as possible. As I have said on other occasions, the powers will be used sparingly and there will be appropriate consultation, as there is now. We have introduced further checks today, and I hope later to refer to another one which I hope will be introduced in another place.
The degree to which the powers are used over the years will depend upon the form and extent of the threat. If the threat diminishes, as we all hope it will, the powers of course will not be used. But it would be unrealistic to legislate

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for the end of terrorism, which is really what this Amendment seeks to do. We cannot possibly be sure that this kind of threat which we are trying to counter in Part II by making it as difficult as possible for people to gain access to aircraft would come to an end in three years. It would be entirely unrealistic to suggest that. It is for that reason only that we cannot accept the noble Lord's Amendment.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I should like to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, on his ingenuity in drafting this Amendment as it would have been if it had not been misprinted! It is quite true, as he says, that a convincing argument was advanced by the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, when we discussed earlier the time and the application of the Bill. The explanation was that it would enable us to ratify the Montreal Convention and that it would be wrong to give the Government of the day only a limited time in which to ratify this desirable Convention. However, as the Amendment cannot be pressed in any case, I have no doubt that if in another place it is thought desirable to put some sort of limitation on the Bill, the way suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, might commend itself to Members.
LORD TREFGARNE: My Lords, my noble friend said that we could put no limit on terrorism and that it would be wrong to legislate for an end to terrorism three years hence. The noble Lord suggested that that would be the effect of a correct version of my Amendment. I should like to say that nothing was further from my mind. I was concerned not with the terrorists but with the Ministers who might be wielding powers with a little more vigour than Parliament had either intended or thought desirable. The disabilities of my Amendment are such that I obviously cannot press it; but I hope that perhaps the noble Lord and his right honourable friends might consider this further before the Bill goes through another place and it might then be found possible to introduce some appropriate Amendment. The fact that the Bill is to be considered by another place is a saving grace, and for that reason I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I beg to move the Privilege Amendment.
Privilege Amendment moved—
Clause 25, page 22 line 41, at end insert—
("( ) Nothing in this Act shall impose any charge on the people or on the public funds, or vary the amount or incidence of or otherwise alter any such charge in any manner, or affect the assessment, levying, administration or application of any money raised by any such charge").—(Lord Drumalbyn.)
On Question, Privilege Amendment agreed to.
6.9 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill do now pass. I should like, if I may, to say a few words. I should like to thank noble Lords for their help and not least their patience, in the course of the exceptionally long time that this Bill has been before your Lordships' House.
In the first place, your Lordships all recognised the desirability of common action on the part of as many of the nations of the world as possible for the suppression of acts endangering the safety of civil aircraft in flight. The original Bill was designed to enact the provisions of the Montreal Convention creating and defining offences, establishing penalties for them and extending powers of extradition, so that we could ratify the Convention, which has now been ratified by the requisite number of nations who had originally signed the Convention. It is therefore now in operation. But before we reached the final stages of the Bill, the Government decided to ask Parliament for exceptional powers to prevent would-be offenders from gaining access to aircraft and to improve the security arrangements in an emergency or in anticipation of an emergency. We had come to think that, excellent as has been the voluntary co-operation we have been receiving from all concerned with aviation, the threat of terrorism against aviation was so grave that the public interest required us to have exceptional powers to deal with it.
My Lords, the Government fully recognise that these powers are exceptional and should be confined solely to the purpose of protecting against acts of violence, aerodromes, aircraft and persons and property thereon. We have sought powers that are adequate but no more than are

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needed for that purpose. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Stow Hill, that, following our discussions, we have looked again at the Bill, but we are still of that opinion. We have willingly conceded such safeguards for the public and for operators of aircraft and managers of aerodromes as we felt were right, and would not impair the exercise of the special powers if and when they are required.
I would just say—and this relates to the Amendment we have recently been dealing with—that nobody can predict how long the present wave of terrorist activities will continue. There may be a lull and they may start again. We want to be ready at any time to deal with them within the restricted but peculiarly vulnerable field of flying. It is for this reason that we have not felt able to accept suggestions that the powers in Part II should be conferred for a limited time only, or should be subject to renewal from time to time. It is of the utmost importance for the safety of passengers and crew and, indeed, for the future of aviation, that there should be as much protection as possible against such acts of violence against aviation.
There is one Amendment, or rather series of Amendments, which it has not been possible to draft before the Bill leaves this House. I refer to the Amendment proposed by my noble friend Lord Trefgarne to extend the Bill to cover air navigation installations outside the confines of aerodromes. I said at the time that we should need to make certain that my noble friend's Amendment was in due form, and that the Government would put down an Amendment at the next stage. I rather feared that implementation of this proposal required a large number of consequential Amendments to other clauses beyond the relatively straightforward Amendment of Clause 7. It was not possible to complete the work involved in time to submit the necessary Amendments for your Lordships' consideration to-day. However, the House will wish to be assured that the Amendments in question will be introduced when the Bill reaches another place. I can give that assurance.
I should like to thank my noble friend for proposing his Amendment, which received wide support throughout the
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House, and which we were pleased to accept. I do not think that I need to add anything further to what I have said, unless any noble Lord would wish me to try to answer any questions that may be put, and I beg to move that this Bill do now pass.
Moved, That the Bill do now pass.— (Lord Drumalbyn.)
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, it is not just an ordinary courtesy when I say that I should like to thank the noble Lord for his patience and tolerance in piloting this Bill through this House. His patience and courtesy were only equalled by his stamina. It would be wrong to think that by passing this Bill we have solved the problem of air piracy; we have done nothing of the kind. Much more important than this Bill would be an agreement between nations which would ensure that no air pirate when he lands—as ultimately he must—would be given asylum by any State on this earth. If we can make some progress on that line we shall be tackling the problem and I hope that the legal committee and legal sub-committee of ICAO are still attempting to get some agreement on this point. Meanwhile, we have done what we can. The noble Lord has helped to arm his Government with very formidable powers indeed, and I hope that we shall benefit from them.
LORD TREFGARNE: My Lords, it would be ungracious of me, having achieved a certain amount of agreement from my noble friend Lord Drumalbyn to amend the Bill, not to acknowledge the assistance that he has given to me and others to make these improvements. However, I am bound to say that I am concerned that we have granted too great a power to the Minister. I hope this will be the principal matter which will seize the other place when they come to consider the Bill. Having said that, let us get this Bill to the other place as soon as possible so that they can begin their deliberations.
6.15 p.m.
LORD JANNER: My Lords, I should first like to congratulate the Government on the step which has been taken in respect of this Bill, although all of us appreciate that that cannot possibly solve the problem which faces the world as a whole at the present time in dealing with the situation that has arisen. This Bill,

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as a Bill, cannot be regarded as being in the nature of anything other than an extremely important Bill because it deals with an extremely important subject, a subject which is facing the rest of the world as well as ourselves. Unless additional forces are sought to cope with this situation I do not think that we shall find anything like a solution to the problem which confronts us.
Terrorism, which this Bill is intended in some way to cope with, seems to be gripping the unlawful forces of the world to such an extent that they are practically blackmailing the civilised world by their actions. I hope that instead of the Bill having to be utilised for any particular length of time, the Minister will seek to do what he can regarding the other aspects of the situation that require to be attended to at present.
We do not fully realise what lies behind the Bill being discussed, and which we are asking to be passed into law. Enormous sums of money would be involved in order to cope with a scourge that has come upon the earth. Previously I called it a cancer. I think that is the right word to use. Of course it is important that we should keep all the steps that are available to us in order to deal with it. I appreciate that the Minister cannot deal with the problem in his own Department, and that other Departments have to deal with it.
But what are we faced with? We are faced with the training of people who indulge in this terrible, horrifying practice of endangering the lives of civilians, irrespective of their nationality, or where they stand in the whole scene. They are being trained in dens which, unimaginably are allowed to exist in countries which harbour them, and in countries which pay them and, as was shown recently in the Khartoum event, not only help the criminals themselves to come to the scene of the crime, but even make arrangements so that the Al Fatah leader from Libya should escape, leaving the others to carry out the nefarious work.
What we are trying to do here is to deal with the situation in our own airports and our own air navigation, but if the training is committed, as it is being committed, and we know where it is being committed and we know who is paying for it, I think that the civilized
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world—and it is the civilised world I am speaking about now—should come together and try to see whether this kind of Bill (which will now become an Act) cannot be strengthened by other action which is essential. The position as it stands at present, and which is indicated by this Bill, shows that precautions have to be taken of a very exceptional nature to deal with a situation that should never be allowed to arise.
I know there are comments at times—I have spoken about them before in your Lordships' House—about people (and I speak quite plainly), for example, Israelis, going to the nests themselves and trying to flush out these people. We are told that it is a terrible thing to do. Well, is it? Is it not essential from the point of view of the whole world that where-ever these criminals are being trained and however they are being trained they should be flushed out by the nations who are at present protecting them? If that were done then indeed the world as a whole would be in a position to avoid the necessity for a Bill of this nature.
It is late in the evening and one could speak for longer, but I think everyone present knows that it is essential that this Bill should become an Act as speedily as possible. Whatever views we may have about any details of the Bill, its main object and purpose is sufficiently important for us to see that it passes on to the Statute Book speedily. I hope that the Minister will have his hand strengthened in respect of the steps which have to be taken when this Bill passes through, by getting international agreement, by seeing to it that as what affects us so clearly affects other nations they themselves should come together to stop this shocking state of affairs, which includes piracy of the vilest nature. Perhaps we ought to look at it in that light when we come to the closing stages of the Bill in your Lordships' House. It is not a simple matter. It is not a matter which deals with one particular section of people in our country alone; it is a matter which is of worldwide importance, and unless and until we can get the civilised nations to take steps together the problem will not be solved. I conclude by thanking the Minister for the manner in which he has conducted the debates and congratulating him and his colleagues on having at least taken this step. I

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hope lie will see that in the international field we shall take a prominent part in urging other nations, as well as ourselves, to deal effectively with the terrible situation that faces us.
6.24 p.m.
LORD STOW HILL: My Lords, I only rise to thank the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, most sincerely. He always has the most heavy burdens thrust on his shoulders and his approach to his task is so assiduous and thorough that we are perhaps apt to take it for granted. He has been most courteous and I am personally grateful to him for the obvious trouble he has taken to consider points of view that some of us here to-night—and I in particular—have put to him in relation to this Bill. It is obviously an exceptional Bill and I am sure we are grateful to him for the trouble that he has taken in regard to it.
THE EARL OF SELKIRK: My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Stow Hill, has said, it is always a great advantage when the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, takes a Bill, because he presents it with great clarity. He has dealt with the utmost attention and care with the points which have been raised. There were moments, perhaps, when his high abilities were a little stretched, but we have been well satisfied with the trouble he has taken in handling the matters that have been raised from time to time. We have had the advantage of starting the Bill in this House and I believe we can fairly claim to have given it a close examination. I shall be interested to see how it progresses afterwards. I should like to ask one rhetorical question: if these powers are really necessary for aerodromes, are they not perhaps necessary elsewhere, particularly in reference to the use of what are called "explosives", whether in the form of bombs or hand grenades? That is a matter which we might consider later on.
6.28 p.m.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, if, by leave of the House, I may just answer the points that have been raised, I should like to say that I am most grateful to noble Lords for what they have said. Certainly I must confess that they have stretched me occasionally in the course
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of this Bill, and I shall undertake to see that the question raised by my noble friend, Lord Selkirk, is considered. I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, particularly for what he said. He is not in his place at the moment and I understand the reason.
I would just say to the noble Lord, Lord Janner, that we recognise very well that this is just one more stage in the attempt to prevent the effects of terrorism. To get rid of terrorism as a whole is a very difficult matter, but in this Bill we are doing all we can to ensure that no aircraft which leaves this country carries a terrorist or any destructive device on it, and for that matter also that no United Kingdom registered aircraft anywhere in the world will carry such a device or such a person. But the problem of nations getting together in order to see that no country flouts the will of the nations taken as a whole, is another matter which the noble Lord knows is going to be further considered in August of this year, when we hope it will be possible to take another long step towards the general objective of ridding the world of what he calls the "scourge" or the "cancer" of terrorism. As he will recall, we have ourselves put forward a recommendation for the amendment of the Chicago Convention, and we shall just have to see how the two other proposals which have been put forward are dealt with at the next stage. I am most grateful to noble Lords for enabling us to take this further step now, which should go a long way at any rate towards helping to provide safety for those who travel by air and those who frequent aerodromes.
LORD JANNER: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, may I ask him a further question? Will he be good enough to see that people who belong to the various movements that are set up for the purpose of training and helping the terrorists who are engaged in hijacking as well as in other acts of terrorism—movements like Al Fatah, the "Black September" Group and the Palestine Liberation Movement, even if they have not got offices in this country—if they come to this country, or attempt to come here, will not be allowed to land and add to the big burden we have already?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, as the noble Lord is well aware, he has put this point in Questions in the House and he has received the best Answers that we can give. He knows that this is rather outside the sphere with which I normally deal. But I have heard those Answers and I think he ought to be satisfied with them.
On Question, Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

WORKS OF ART: EXPORT CONTROL
6.31 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI LORD STRABOLGI rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied with the present system of export control for works of art. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. It is twenty years since the first Report of the Waverley Committee and this seems a good time, I suggest, to review the present system of export control and to ask the Government whether they are satisfied with it. The Nineteenth Report of the Reviewing Committee was published in January and that, I was glad to see, included a warm tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Cottesloe, who has just retired as Chairman after 18 years. As the Report says:
"Those concerned with safe-guarding the art treasures of the nation owe him a great debt of gratitude."
That I should like to endorse. I am glad that the chairmanship has passed into the able hands of the noble Earl, Lord Perth. He is well qualified for the task and we wish him well.
It is generally agreed that the review system has worked satisfactorily on the whole and the Waverley criteria, which cannot be bettered, still remain the most sensible guide when deciding whether or not to grant an export licence. The great weakness in the system, though, seems to be that the national institution has often not got the money to back up the Waverley decision. Special grants from the Treasury are also dependent on other factors such as the prevailing political and economic climate. I am glad to say that there have been some concessions over the years. I welcome the very useful concessions in last year's Finance Act for example, the granting of unlimited exemption from estate duty on financial
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bequests to museums and galleries as well as to qualifying bodies such as the National Art Collections Fund. I also welcome the exemption up to £50,000 on bequests to other charities, many of which help the arts. These concessions have brought financial bequests into line with bequests of works of art which were exempt so that we shall not have any more cases like that over the bequest by Sir Robert Hart to the National Gallery of half a million pounds when most of the money was clawed back by the Treasury in estate duty.
In the case of exempted pictures sold to galleries by executors, as opposed to bequests, there is nothing that I can find in the Finance Acts to prevent 100 per cent. remission. I understand that the present Treasury practice is to allow a 25 per cent. remission. It would, I suggest, provide a great inducement to owners to offer their pictures to galleries in this country if the remission percentage could be raised, say, to 50 per cent. for a start. I am glad that the arrangements for exemption in lieu of duty have been broadened to include works of art suitable for collections other than national collections. It is surely right that the regional museums should have their share and that the nation's art should be more widely spread, provided always that the wishes of testators are respected.
But there is one anomaly that needs to be put right. In the case of national collections, if the exempt price of the work of art is below one-quarter of the annual purchasing grant of the gallery concerned, then that sum must be refunded by the gallery to the Treasury. That will be particularly onerous in the case of collections comprising items which are individually worth less than 25 per cent. of the grant. A national museum, for example, would have to pay for the whole collection. The National Gallery would not be able to accept in lieu of duty any item worth less than £120,000, which is a quarter of the Gallery's purchase grant. I hope that the Government will consider this and allow a collection to be accepted on its total value rather than on that of individual items, and thus make it easier for it to be retained in this country.
My Lords, all these arrangements are very complicated and the Reviewing Committee urge, quite rightly, in their last

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Report, that a simple statement should be prepared. I understand that this statement is in preparation and I should like to ask when it is likely to be published as many executors are unaware of these fiscal advantages. May I say how delighted I am that the fund to assist local collections, which is administered by the Victoria and Albert Museum, has been increased from £150,000 to £400,000. I am also glad to see that the financial level for exports not requiring a licence has been raised from £2,000 to £4,000. But I submit that works in one category should be excepted, irrespective of value, in the way that archaeological material is excepted. These are paintings, mainly portraits of eminent men and women, where the historical importance is much greater than the monetary value. I believe that the financial level was raised without full consultation with the Standing Commission on Museums and Galleries. It is causing concern, particularly to the National Portrait Galleries in London and Edinburgh. I hope that the Minister will reconsider this matter, otherwise many works, important from an historical point of view, may be sent abroad without coming to the notice particularly of these galleries. The Reviewing Committee draw attention to this special category in their Report and suggest—and I thought that this was a very good suggestion—that historical portraits should be treated as documentary material.
Turning to value added tax, the original proposals to levy V.A.T. on the whole selling price of a second-hand work of art would have been particularly damaging to our art trade. I welcome, therefore, very much the concession which is to levy V.A.T. only on dealers' and auctioneers' margins and commissions and to zero-rate all exports and certain imports. These concessions, I believe, are owed in large part to the efforts of the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, and I should like to say how much this is appreciated. They should enable Britain to maintain her position as the leading centre for the international art market, as this, of course, depends on a free flow of works of art both in and out of the country. However, the zero rating of export sales may give a slight advantage to the foreign collector and museum, since sales, even to museums, in this country are not to be
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zero rated. I hope that the Government will reconsider this. I should like to ask particularly whether works of art sold to public galleries in this country, either direct or through supporting bodies like "Friends", can be zero rated in the same way as works of art sold to foreign museums. This proposal has the support, I believe, of the Standing Commission on Museums and Galleries.
I must also put in a strong plea for the living artist. I am shocked that home sales by an artist of his own work will have to bear the full V.A.T. and also that new work by living foreign artists will be liable for this tax on their importation. The effect will be to discourage collectors from bringing in contemporary works of art from abroad, and to treat works of art, which should know no frontiers, like consumer goods. This is philistine and short-sighted, and it will affect the quality and range of our private collections, and, of course, through them eventually the quality and range of our national collections. The £5,000 taxable limit will also bring into being two classes of artist, those who are taxable and those who are not. In many countries of Europe the Living artist is exempt, and so he should be here, when we claim to be a country that believes in the arts.
The Reviewing Committee pointed out in their report that there are a number of major works of art still in private hands which are just as important as Titian's Diana and Actaeon. The National Gallery has, of course, mortgaged a large part of its purchase grant for several years in order to acquire the Titian. It seems unlikely, therefore, that we should be able to prevent another picture of the same calibre from going abroad if it should come on the market in the near future. I should like to ask the Government whether they have any contingency plans for, say, the Michaelangelo Tondo, which is valued, I believe, at about £5 million, should the Royal Academy decide to sell this.
Following the sale of the Leonardo cartoon in 1962 by the Royal Academy, when this was retained in the country only by the most strenuous efforts—I think we owe a great debt to the noble Earl, Lord Crawford, for his great efforts over this; I am sorry he cannot be with us to-day —the Government set up a committee of inquiry into the sale of works of art by

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public bodies, under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Cottesloe. The committee recommended, in their 1964 report, that the control system should be reinforced by a fund to finance special grants when necessary for important purchases, and also that the Government should announce that export licences would not be issued for works of art above a certain value in the possession of public or semi-public bodies if the committee advised that they are of national importance. Where export licences are refused, the committee recommended that the Government should usually be prepared to negotiate for the purchase. Since the Leonardo, we have had the sale by Dulwich of their Domenichino in 1971, a sale sanctioned, I am sorry to say, by the present Minister of Education; a very sad story that had a happy ending, as the picture is now owned by the National Gallery of Scotland, although it very nearly went abroad. I should like to ask the Government for their views on the Cottesloe recommendations, if I may so describe them, as these seem to me to be just as relevant to-day as when they were made nearly ten years ago.
The establishment of a special capital fund is also urged by the Reviewing Committee in their report, and they have urged this in many previous reports. It has also been recommended by the National Gallery Trustees. One advantage, of course, would be that it would be easier to come to a quick decision. But there might be Treasury difficulties over hypothecated finance, especially for a large amount. The Reviewing Committee suggested in their previous report that one way over the difficulty would be the provision of a more modest sum, analogous to the purchase grants available to the national collections, but non-cumulative, acting as a long-stop to ensure the retention of items of lesser value, which are often at risk—and many of these include, of course, paintings by British arists which are very much part of our heritage. It may be better, however, to give increased grants to galleries to enable them to plan ahead, and for the galleries to let the Government, the Reviewing Committee and the fine art trade know in advance what they are interested in.
As I have no right of reply, I should like to say at this stage that I look forward to the speeches of the Minister
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and other noble Lords, and I hope that the Government will be able to let the House have their views on all these matters arising out of my Question.
6.47 p.m.
LORD COTTESLOE: My Lords, I think we must all be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, for raising this matter in your Lordships' House. It is a subject in which there is widespread interest among the public with their increasing awareness of our heritage in this country, the great heritage both of nature and of art, and a subject which, while an occasional facet of it may perhaps arouse Party feeling, is in essence one that quite transcends Party politics.
I have been fortunate, as the noble Lord has said—and I cannot be too grateful for his kind references to myself—to have been for 18 years, until my noble friend Lord Perth succeeded me in that position last July, the chairman of the Minister's Advisory Council on the Export of Works of Art and also of the Reviewing Committee that considers particular cases of applications for export licences for works of art and antiques, where they concern objects to the export of which objection has been raised by expert advisers on grounds of their national importance. It has been for me an assignment of absorbing interest and occasional vexations, but with many delights—delights not only due to the variety and the beauty of the objects with which we have been concerned, but no less due to the ready help and co-operation and friendship, given almost without exception by owners and dealers and museum directors alike. I have been very fortunate.
As Lord Strabolgi has said, the present control was set up 20 years ago on the recommendation of a committee under the chairmanship of John Anderson, Lord Waverley, a committee of which my noble friend Lord Robbins was a member. The basic concepts on which it rests, as they were laid down by that committee, have stood the test of time remarkably well. They were, first, that export control by a system of licensing is best applied to a small number of objects of high importance, and becomes progressively less effective and more irksome the larger the number of objects it is sought to control; secondly—the

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essential corollary—that the grants available to the national collections should be sufficient to enable them to acquire by negotiation, or in the market, all but the most important and valuable of their desiderata; and, thirdly, that in every case where export is prevented the owner must be assured of an offer to purchase at a fair price.
The Waverley Committee also laid down criteria to be applied to assess the national importance of any work of art referred to the Reviewing Committee after scrutiny by an expert adviser of an application for an export licence. Those criteria, too, have stood the test of time, though there can be no doubt in my view that the increasing ease of movement about the world—we have just been talking about the Concorde—is making the context in which a great work of art or of literature can be studied and appreciated of greater importance, and the location in which it rests of less importance. As a case in point, if there were to-day a further great discovery of Boswell manuscripts, than which few things are more improbable, the right place for them would undoubtedly be Yale where they could be studied in the context of the great mass of Boswelliana, rather than the British Museum. Considerations of the same sort may sometimes apply to particular works of art.
Such is the system and it has, on the whole, worked well, largely owing to the fact that the arrangements are designed, unlike those in some other European countries, to operate with the greatest practicable measure of fairness to the owners of works of art and to the dealers who handle them. This has been a major factor in enabling London to regain since the last war its outstanding pre-eminence as the centre of the fine art market of the world; and, no less, it has been this fairness that has secured the co-operation of the trade without which no control could hope to operate successfully. Nor, my Lords, must it be forgotten that this has the effect that, while the objects referred to the Reviewing Committee are relatively few—less than 200 in 20 years—and, commonly, are not of extreme importance and value, the very existence of the control has had the effect that many items of the highest importance are offered to and acquired by
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the national collections without ever coming into the export market at all—such works as the Memling Triptych, the Powys van der Weyden, the echanting Gainsborough of Mr. and Mrs. Andrews sitting by their cornfield, the Holbein cartoon of Henry VIII, the Goya of the Duke of Wellington and, of course, that object of supreme beauty, the Leonardo cartoon.
For such acquisitions the increase in the grants available to the national collections in the last two decades, and special grants from the Government towards particular purchases, have been an essential factor as well as the arrangements, now to be more broadly based than hitherto, for acceptance of works of art by the Treasury in satisfaction of estate duty. The increase in purchase grants has, in particular, been outstanding and welcome, greatly exceeding the inflationary increase in values. The National Gallery purchase grant, for instance, which 20 years ago, when the control was instituted, was £7,000, is now £480,000; the Tate Gallery grant has risen from £2,000 to £265,000 and one can say that, in general, the second of the basic concepts on which the control rests is at the present time reasonably satisfied. I should like particularly to congratulate my noble friend the Paymaster General on having obtained this year, as the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi has said, a great increase in the sum made available to the Victoria and Albert Museum for aid to purchases by local collections—an increase to £400,000. Last year, it was only £150,000 and I think I am right in saying that 20 years ago it did not exist at all.
So much for the system. It appears in the light of experience that it is soundly based and that, on the whole, it has worked reasonably smoothly and well, though there have been one or two minor breaches of the control, due I think more to ignorance than to malice. I know of only one important evasion in these 20 years, the export to California of the only known portrait of Dr. Harvey in his prime by a fraudulent declaration, for which a salutary fine was imposed by the court. Of course the export of the very unattractive, but important, early Rubens of Daniel in the Lions' Den, at one time in the collection of Charles I, to whom it was given by his ambassador at The

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Hague, was made possible only by the ill-advised but unquestionably bona fide acceptance by a reputable owner, of an offer of £500 for a picture that was sold a year or so later to the National Gallery in Washington for a sum said to be in excess of £170,000. But no system can be infallible. What are the real weaknesses? In my view, they are at the two ends of the scale—the middle ground is reasonably satisfactory. On the one hand, the system is not all adequate to cope with pictures of an astronomical value, of which the Velasquez from Longford Castle, sold for £2,310,000 in 1970, may be taken as the architype, and it is of course, in fact, an abnormality. Nor, on the other hand, is it in the least adequate, as at present devised, to deal with the modern historical archives that are of such importance to scholars, and now often of high monetary value.
As the whole field of manuscripts, documents and archives is, I understand, to be discussed by your Lordships on a separate Motion after Easter, I shall not attempt to say anything about it this evening—a most difficult and intractable field it is, with the most bigoted members of the trade, on the one hand, saying that nothing should ever be controlled, and the most extreme scholars, on the other, saying that nothing should ever he allowed to leave the country. There are of course less extreme men of both kinds between the entrenched extremists, but we shall be talking of these matters after Easter. There are at the other end of the scale three things that seem to me to be essential before the control can he regarded as adequate for the safeguarding of important elements of our great heritage. The first is that the arrangements for acceptance of important works of art should be such as to attract owners, and particularly executors, to surrender them to the nation to enrich our museums and galleries, rather than put them into the international saleroom.
Here there has been a very significant change. Not only can I hope, with confidence, that my noble friend will be able to tell us that the arrangements for the surrender of important works of art in satisfaction of estate duty will be clearly set out and publicised for the benefit of executors and owners and their professional advisors—and it is very necessary that they should be widely
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known and understood—but he is to be congratulated on having broadened their base, so that executors can now surrender suitable items not only from the particular estate on which duty is charged, but from outside it, and where they have been exempted can obtain 25 per cent. of the benefit of the exemption. And they can be accepted not only for the benefit of a few national collections, but for the enrichment of local public collections, too.
My Lords, that is splendid, but there seems to be a nasty fly in this particular ointment, to which Lord Strabolgi referred. It is that if an item surrendered was worth less than 25 per cent. of the total annual purchase grant of the collection concerned, the museum or gallery could not accept it in lieu of duty but would have to pay for it. That does not seem to me to make any sense. I think I can understand the reason behind it, but it still does not seem to me to make sense. I hope that perhaps my noble friend may be able to tell me that we have been wrongly informed. Of course, the unlimited exemption from estate duty of monetary bequests to the National Gallery and some other collections, and to the National Art Collection Fund, to which Lord Strabolgi referred, with the corresponding exemption up to a limit of £50,000 for other charities, is most warmly to be welcomed. But while these measures are a real help, they are far from being enough. They would not have been any help over the Harewood Titian of Diana and Actaeon, a most important and beautiful work from Titian's last period which has been secured by the National Gallery only through a self-denying ordinance of the National Gallery Trustees which cripples them for some years, and by the notable tour de force of a great public appeal, topped up by a special Treasury grant of £381,500, to provide a total of more than £1¾ million for its purchase.
Nor, indeed, my Lords, would they have served to retain the incomparable Velasquez from Longford Castle; and, splendid though the Titian is, I would myself sooner have seen the Velasquez in the National Gallery. That picture must have attracted about £1½ million or 1¾million in estate duty and capital gains tax—a great windfall for the Treasury. But that windfall was in fact a part of our heritage of works of art. In my view,

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it should have been ploughed back, so to speak, and not expended—I am tempted to say "frittered away" —in current Treasury expenditure. It would be an entirely logical extension of the arrangements for the acceptance of works of art in lieu of estate duty if the money attracted through taxation by their sale were made available towards their acquisition for the nation. Of course, the Treasury would fight tooth and nail against any such logic, but I hope my noble friend will fight with equal resolution, and that logic will prevail. It would, I think, make a great difference.
Finally, my Lords, I come to what has been repeatedly urged on successive Governments, as Lord Strabolgi said, not only by the Reviewing Committee and the Advisory Council, but by the National Gallery Trustees, by the Standing Commission on Museums and Galleries and by other bodies; and that is the essential need for a fund of some sort to back the control. It is true that the record of successive Governments in giving special purchase grants on occasion has been, on the whole, commendable, though there have been notable failures. The Oscote Lectern, that unique and splendid sculpture, and the Caxton Manuscript of Ovid's metamorphoses, now at Magdalene College, Cambridge, through the great generosity of an American who learned of its sale only by chance, spring to mind. No one who has anything to do with the control can rest content to accept the chances of important and valuable items falling on the market when the economic climate is severe unless there is a fund to back the control in such an emergency.
Such a long-stop might be provided in either of two ways. It might be provided as a large capital fund available to be drawn upon in emergency. The classic objection to that—that Parliament will not allow large sums to escape from its control—does not, I think, really hold water, for such a fund could be provided by ear-marking for this purpose a part of the Land Fund; and the use of the Land Fund for the maintenance of historic buildings at the instance of the Historical Buildings Committee makes a good precedent. Or, equally, it might be provided, as the Reviewing Committee have suggested, in the form of an annual grant analogous to the purchase grants
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made available to the Trustees of the national collections—but, we have suggested, not cumulative from year to year. To that there could really be no objection in principle, and I earnestly commend this suggestion to my noble friend. I would say that that would not of course be a purchase grant in the ordinary sense; it would be a long-stop to prevent important items of our national heritage from disappearing from our country, almost certainly for ever, and that is a very different thing and a very different order of priority from a gallery's purchase grant. At all events, my Lords, in one way or another I most earnestly hope that my noble friend may be able to obtain for the control the backing that is an essential requirement if it is to ensure that the most important and valuable works of art from our heritage from the past are secure from export despite the vagaries of the economic climate.
7.7 p.m.
THE EARL OF PERTH: My Lords, I, too, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, for having initiated this Motion. I found myself very much in agreement with many of the points he made and nut forward. Of course, on a question like this—the export of works of art—a system can never be perfect, and I think it is of the greatest importance that suggestions are put forward for consideration by all those who care about and know a good deal about the subject. Certainly various of the things that the noble Lord has suggested to-day I feel sure will be taken very much to heart and thought about by the Paymaster General. The noble Lord paid tribute to Lord Crawford, who is not here to-day, for the efforts he made in saving the Leonardo, and I would certainly echo what the noble Lord said. He also paid tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Cottesloe, and in that respect I can say that there is only one section of this Report in which I played some part, and that is the Addendum, which expressed how great was the debt that we all owed to Lord Cottesloe for his work over the last 18 years. That, anyhow, I drafted. If proof were needed of what is said there, it is to be found in what we have heard to-day in his speech. That speech, with the various concrete suggestions that he

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has made and the experience which he has recalled of various happenings, is certainly something that we, the present members of the Committee, will study. I shall see that my fellow members have it as compulsory reading; and I am sure that what I say for us will also be true for others who are concerned in Government quarters.
My Lords, the Report made four recommendations. It is not for me to comment on those broadly; that will be for the Paymaster General. However, there is one recommendation on which I can throw a little light, and that is the recommendation that a clear and simple statement of the provisions in the various Finance Acts should be made available particularly for those who are involved, be they solicitors, be they trustees of estates or what you will. I have seen this pamphlet or statement—call it what you will—in first draft, so it does exist; but I am sure all will appreciate that it is a very difficult document to get right. So perhaps we have to be patient a little longer. I have no idea of the timetable, but there is progress and, as I say, something is on paper already.
I have for long been interested in the whole question of works of art but I feel I am too new a boy to make detailed comments such as we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Cottesloe. But two thoughts have come to me which are of great importance. One concerns an ever-closer relationship between the museum curators, directors and keepers, and the trade. Often there is a temptation on the part of museum directors to wait until, for example, something has come up at auction, and then to say, "Oh, well! perhaps we had better get this." It is one of their vital and important tasks that they should let the trade know what they are after; they should cultivate dealers, be they in London or in the country. In that way one might ensure that in respect of various treasures we did not go through the agony of wondering whether or not we were going to be able to save them at the last moment. I have found in every instance I have seen that those in the trade are only too anxious to have the right things go to the museums. So more initiative is needed on the part of the museum directors and keepers, and I am sure that the dealers will respond.
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My second thought or realisation is the importance of the National Art Collections Fund, which has been mentioned by noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. It happens that it is celebrating its 70th birthday this year. Dare I say that I hope that all noble Lords who are sitting here are members of the Fund? If they are not, I strongly recommend that they should become members. My reason for this is that I believe that if this Fund had more money and more members it would provide one of the solutions towards solving crises which arise when a great work comes up and the gallery concerned is not able to raise the money that is needed. If we could reach a point where on such occasions the National Art Collections Fund could say, "Well, we can go half way in finding the money", it would be extremely difficult for a Government to say, "We will not match that." For those who want to put pressure on the Government or the Treasury, one of the best ways of doing it is to increase in every way the National Art Collections Fund's money and membership. If an organisation has many members, then it is a pretty strong lobby as well.
To come to the end of my remarks, perhaps one might ask whether one is satisfied with the system as it stands. I think I have said that one should never be satisfied, because nothing is perfect. But various Governments, and particularly the noble Viscount the Paymaster General, have gone a long way to help us in the whole of this task. His success is an outstanding one in getting us money for such things as local museums and in getting improvements of Finance Acts, and his efforts have not been adequately realised to date. I certainly want to join the others who paid their tributes to him. We have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Cottesloe, that the Waverley Criteria have, in his opinion—and I would support this—stood the test of time in the most extraordinary way. It would be hard to change them in any substantial degree; there may be room for some minor improvements, but, broadly, the work that was done 18 or 20 years ago still stands now. I feel that one can say with confidence that the system is working pretty well. When I look elsewhere to other countries in Europe where there is equally a system for defending

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their treasures, I think that our system is better. If that is right, I believe the basic reason is that both the trade and the owners recognise that they are going to get a fair deal. In that respect, I would only say if ever that situation were changed, if ever the principle of a fair price, or non-penalisation of owners, were threatened, then it would be a sad day and the outlook would be black. Successive Governments have always stood against that threat. Long may their stand continue!
7.17 p.m.
THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (VISCOUNT ECCLES): My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, has asked a very interesting Question. He has raised a great many facets or minor questions in his interesting speech, as have my two noble friends who have spoken in the debate. I will do my best to answer them, but it will take a few moments because of the importance and intricacy of the subject we are debating. I would add from the Government Front Bench to the tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Cottesloe, and his 18 years of chairmanship of the Reviewing Committee. I remember well when Sir John Anderson held his first inquiry and I submitted a memorandum to it at that day which was pigeonholed and nothing was ever done about it. But the Criteria, when they came out, were, and have been, a great testimony to a very wise man's drafting capacity on a very difficult subject.
There is no division among us in the House that we ought to try to keep in this country, and in a good state of repair, as many beautiful and interesting buildings and objects as we possibly can. The Government's problem is how to do this with justice to the owner and within the limited funds available, when the boom in prices on the art market looks as though it will never end. It is against this background of what one must describe as permanent inflation—more and more money chasing fewer and fewer fine objects—that I have to reply to the Question whether we think the "present system of export control for works of art" is satisfactory. Many experts are constantly telling me that it is not satisfactory; and that may be due to the fact that their judgments differ so widely on what it is we ought to keep in the coun-
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try. I think I may say that the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, and I happen to be liberal in our approach to international trade in the arts, and therefore we really agree in principle that one ought not to swing over to heavy protectionism. I do not know whether that is true for all other noble Lords. It is certainly not true of many critics and curators, and I think they must have some squirrels among their ancestors. But, speaking for the Government, I can endorse what my two noble friends have said—that the present control works uncommonly well; very much better than any parallel system in any other country with which I am acquainted.
What is the reason for the enviable comparison that we can justly make? My Lords, we ought to be quite clear about this before we support any demand for an extension in the present control system. We are talking about delectable objects, small in size and very valuable in money—many of them would go into the boot of a car. I doubt whether your Lordships can think of one masterpiece that could not be concealed in a juggernaut lorry rolling on to a channel ferry. It follows that the effectiveness of our system of control depends upon the good will and integrity of owners, dealers, auctioneers, experts and officials. Our system, as the House will know, requires individual licences to be obtained for objects above a certain value, age, and length of time which they have been in this country. And these licences have to be applied for voluntarily. The system works because we have been able to count on the good will and integrity of all concerned in the trade in which very large sums of money are always at stake. If we lowered the limit of value and age so that many more works would require an export licence, or we asked the Government's advisors to refer many more objects to the Reviewing Committee, your Lordships would see that the area in which evasion must always be a temptation would be correspondingly increased. There is some evasion to-day, but we have reason to think that in the great majority of cases licences are applied for when they should be and that our control works because the area to which it is applied is small and the system itself is clearly seen to be in the public interest.

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My Lords, we have in fact done something to enlarge the area in which licences are required. We only doubled the limit above which licences must be sought from £2,000 to £4,000, although prices have more than doubled since the £2,000 limit was fixed in 1966. It must be obvious that if a control at the point of export cannot be made as comprehensive as one would wish—and it never can be in any country—the alternative is to buy for a public collection an object that might otherwise have slipped out of the country. This is why we have been quietly improving the benefits to a British owner who gives, sells or bequeaths some work of national importance to a public collection or offers it in lieu of estate duty. The improvements that we have made are in the nature of a deliberate reply to the United States tax reliefs which we think would not be suitable in this country. The Finance Act of 1972, as noble Lords have already mentioned, made changes relating to cash gifts and bequests to national collections and arts charities. The Government also broadened the standards for acceptance of works in lieu of duty.
I now come to a point raised by both the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, and my noble friend Lord Cottesloe. In 1956 in another place, the Government made clear their intention not to do this in such a way that the national museums would get a straight increase in their acquisition grants, and that intention was confirmed last year during the passage of the Finance Bill. The Treasury requires this 25 per cent. rule to make the system workable so that the cases can be readily ascertained which cannot be treated as outside the scope of the normal acquisition grants. Of course, on the borderline there will be room for some argument on the application of the general rules, and these modified provisions are, as the noble Earl, Lord Perth, indicated, more than a little complicated. They are being set out in the Treasury Memorandum soon to be published—I hope within a very few weeks now—and we are very grateful for the help which the noble Earl, Lord Perth, has been giving us in drawing up a clear statement of a difficult position. When the memorandum is in the hands of owners and their advisers we can expect the offers to public collections and to the Treasury to increase.
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Much has already happened. The Chancellor of the Exchequer must be very pleased that before all the advantages are widely known we have had a significant increase in the number of interesting offers—something of the order of as many a month now as before 1972 we had in a year. The Provincial galleries are quite obviously going to benefit greatly from the new arrangements.
I think the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, thought that when a picture is sold to a public collection and is thereby exempted from estate duty, the Treasury ought to offer a larger margin than 25 per cent.—this happens to be the same figure as in another instance—but I think he will remember that there is now a double concession, not only exemption from estate duty but exemption from capital gains tax. Of course, the position is complicated and that is why we had to set it out in the memorandum. I can assure him that the fact that it is 25 per cent. of the difference between the price he might have got in the market and the price at which the picture is accepted by the gallery—it is then 25 per cent. of the death duties—is already showing itself to be a very powerful incentive. So far as we can see now, there is no need to offer any greater incentive but I undertake that I will watch this matter very carefully.
I think the noble Lord asked that the limit of £4,000 above which a licence must be sought should not apply to historical portraits. We have looked at that, but it is extremely difficult to define what is a historical portrait and what is not. Further, objects of this price range —that is, below £4,000—really ought to be taken care of by the annual acquisition grant of the gallery concerned, and if it can be shown that this is not so they will no doubt make a case for an increase in grant when the present quinquennium comes to an end.
I have to say to my noble friend Lord Cottesloe that I suppose I have a dash of Treasury training in me, but the idea of earmarking the proceeds of estate duties on one kind of property to be reinvested in the same kind of property really horrifies me, and I feel that if this were to be communicated to the Treasury there might be great consternation. I think that one is simply not "on". But it leads me to say a word in answer to

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the noble Lord's inquiry about the repeated requests by the Reviewing Committee for a large fund out of which they could assist the purchase of masterpieces for which they had held up an export licence. This matter has been looked at a great many times, and no Government have favoured such a fund, for reasons which appear to us to be convincing. The Reviewing Committee was established to warn us when a work of art should be retained in this country, and that it has done extremely well. It was not established to buy works of art. In our view it is for one of the museums to say whether they wish to acquire a particular work for which the export licence has been challenged and, having regard to their acquisition grant and such other funds as they can muster, to make the case for a special grant from the Treasury. No Government have thought it right to hand over these functions to an independent body, however eminent. Money such as is required to buy a picture like the Titian can be made available only when the gallery and the Government have considered all the circumstances, including the other claims in the field of the arts which, I can assure noble Lords, are many and urgent.
Of course, my Lords, the rise in the art market is highly embarrassing. The inflation, if that is the right word, has escalated in the last three or four years at such a rate that it is unreasonable to expect any Government to increase the grant for acquisitions to the same extent. Therefore we have to be more, and not less, selective in the use of the funds available, and each case must be judged on its merits and according to the financial circumstances. I hope I carry your Lordships with me when I say that the need to be selective lays an added emphasis on retaining works of art that have a direct connection with our own history. We must not let them go, and in the last two years we have used the special grant system to secure all the important objects of that kind that have been brought to our notice. If we had used all the money on buying one or two foreign paintings in the seven-figure class we would justly have been criticised.
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That brings me to the very difficult question of drawing up lists of those masterpieces by foreign artists which have been in British ownership for more than 50 years and therefore could be refused an export licence if they were bought for a collection overseas. Such lists are bound to differ from author to author and in accordance with the prevailing fashion in taste. In my office we have received four or five such lists, and we are very grateful for the trouble which the museums concerned have taken in their compilation. But a cursory inspection shows that none could be accepted as definitive, and I must put it to your Lordships that we ought not to publish any of these lists or any conflation made from them. It could not be either exhaustive or a firm commitment to acquire at any cost. It would be unfair on the owners and perhaps encourage them to sell sooner than otherwise they might. It would put an artificial value on pictures not on the list but next in quality to those that were on the list.
We do not know of many British collectors willing to pay, say, £250,000 or upwards for Old Masters by foreign painters. We believe there are very few and one must assume that once lists were published our museums would not bid, since there would be no prospect of the picture going out of the country. The value of the picture would be very different when it could be sold only to a domestic buyer. Therefore the right policy is to rely on the advantages to the private owner of keeping his works of art within his family, and to increase the benefits he can get if he sells to a British institution, or if the pictures are offered to the Treasury in lieu of estate duty. For these reasons I hope that your Lordships will support us in the decision not to publish any of the lists of works of art, for which we would then be morally committed never to allow the export whatever the cost or the circumstances.
The noble Lord, Lord Straboigi, asked what about Michelangelo's Tondo? I cannot give the answer because I have not the slightest information that the Royal Academy contemplates selling that great work. I think we must assume—and I hope I am right—that they have no such intention. There are two further

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points I must make in answer to questions which were asked. The first was asked by the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, and concerns objects of national importance held by a charity or trust or churches, or something like that—
LORD STRABOLGI: If I may assist the noble Viscount, it was public or semi-public bodies; that is, bodies having a charitable status.
VISCOUNT ECCLES: My Lords, I am sorry; it was public or semi-public bodies which, of course, would include churches. When these bodies decide to sell an object—and it may be in desperation in' order to raise money to preserve their other assets—they do not receive any tax advantage if they offer the object to a national collection. Therefore they are likely to go to the market to get the highest price, and the danger of export follows. We are thinking about this, and I hope we can do something helpful to meet a situation which could very easily become serious.
The second point concerned the status of a collection of objects none of which, if considered separately, would come within the Waverley Criteria. I can reassure noble Lords on that point. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his Budget speech earlier this month, said that the 1930 Finance Act and the 1956 Finance Act would be aligned, so now the definitions would be the same. That means that collections as a whole can be accepted as of national importance and valued as such; and also documents. So I think that settles that point.
The noble Lord asked about V.A.T. on purchases by museums. The position is that when a museum buys an object from a private person who is not registered as a trader there will not be any tax, but when a museum buys an object from a dealer the tax will be approximately 1 per cent. on the price; that is to say, 10 per cent. on the dealer's margin of 10 per cent. But if a national museum can show that it has paid V.A.T. in this way, the Government, in the 1973–74 Supplementary Estimates, will consider increasing the acquisition grant by the amount of the tax, so that the national museum is out so far as V.A.T. on acquisition is concerned. The
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acquisition fund for provincial museums has been raised from £150,000 to £400,000 and we consider that that very large increase is quite adequate to take care of any small V.A.T. there may be on objects bought by those museums from registered dealers. The application of V.A.T. to living artists applies only after the first £5,000 of their output, because the first £5,000 is free. That figure is considerably higher than in many of the other V.A.T. countries. We do not see any reason to single out contemporary works of art from other forms of art—music, drama, or even entertainment or other small businesses. There is no reason that I can see why this particular form of artistic activity should be put into a privileged tax position.
My Lords, I have kept the House much too long, but I have been asked so many questions. I agree entirely with my noble friend Lord Perth that we all ought to support the National Art Collections Fund, and I wish him and Sir Anthony Hornby every success. I believe that close consultation between museum curators and dealers is a good thing. It is not so easy to do in respect of some departments as others, but I have seen it working well at the British Museum and I hope that it will be extended. We are ready to consider all suggestions within the main principles of our export control, because we yield to no one in our desire to keep in this country the fine things that we have. Therefore I should like to thank the three noble Lords who have spoken, and to say that we will do all we can; but so long as prices continue to rise it is obvious that when great masterpieces come on the market each case will have to be considered on its merits.

MEDWAY PORTS AUTHORITY BILL [H.L.]
The Queen's Consent signified, and Bill reported with Amendments.
UPPER MERSEY NAVIGATION BILL [H.L.]
Reported with Amendments.
  ART COLLEGE LEAVERS
  ART COLLEGE LEAVERS
  E.E.C. NATIONALS AND EMPLOYMENT IN U.K.
  E.E.C. NATIONALS AND EMPLOYMENT IN U.K.
  ARMAGH OBSERVATORY
  ARMAGH OBSERVATORY
  NORTHERN IRELAND: FORCES PENSION SCHEME
  NORTHERN IRELAND: FORCES PENSION SCHEME
  ZAMBIA: BRITISH AID
  ZAMBIA: BRITISH AID