Sitting of 27 June 1973

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
PRAYERS
  PRIVATE BUSINESS
    ULLAPOOL PIER ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
    Mr. Gordon Campbell presented a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under Section 7 of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act 1936, relating to Ullapool Pier; And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be considered upon Tuesday next and to be printed. [Bill 168.]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  SCOTLAND

    Icelandic Trawlers (Shetland Herring)
    Mr. Laurance Reedasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is satisfied that the Icelandic trawlers fishing the Shetland herring are keeping outside the 12-mile limit.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Home Affairs and Agriculture, Scottish Office (Mr. Alick Buchanan-Smith): I have no evidence of infringement of properly constituted fishery limits by Icelandic vessels.
    Mr. Reed: Has my hon. Friend had a chance to peruse the White Paper on the cod war? Does he realise that in it the Icelanders are accused of overfishing their own herring stocks? Since they will now be doing some fishing in sight of our shores, is not this a very good argument for extending our own limits to 50 miles and excluding them? Will he undertake, in any future negotiations about fishing limits, to ensure that the interests of the 8,000 inshore fishermen of Scotland are represented as forcibly as the interests
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    of the 2,000 distant water fishermen of England?
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: I must ask my hon. Friend not to oversimplify the situation. In the herring industry there is urgent need for catch restriction of North Sea herring. I hope Iceland will withdraw her objection to this and not stand in the way of other countries finding a solution at the special meeting to be held of the North-East Atlantic Fisheries Commission at the end of this year. If Iceland paid attention to that kind of thing it would be very helpful to everyone.
    Mr. W. H. K. Baker: Does not my hon. Friend agree that the inshore fishermen are wholly behind the Government's stand in the Icelandic fisheries dispute? I have flown over the area. Will my hon. Friend accept from me that there was no case of a British trawler going anywhere near the 12-mile limit?
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: In all my negotiations and discussions with the inshore fishing industry of Scotland, I find the fishermen strongly in support of the deep sea industry.

    Hampden Park
    Mr. Edward Taylorasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a further statement on his discussions regarding the future of Hampden Park.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Education, Scottish Office (Mr. Hector Monro): I had an informal meeting last month with representatives of Queen's Park Football Club which my hon. Friend attended. The future of Hampden Park as a national football stadium is, however, primarily a matter for the football organisations and Queen's Park Football Club. I hope that, following further discussions which may be arranged shortly, they will be able to produce a practicable scheme for the development and management of the stadium.
    Mr. Taylor: Does not my hon. Friend agree that the upgrading of Hampden Park and the creation of a suitable national football stadium in Scotland is urgent? Will he arrange urgent discussions with the Scottish Football Association and the League and make it

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    clear that, if a practical proposition emerges, the Government have not turned their mind against the possibility of financial support for such a project?
    Mr. Monro: Of course Scotland wants to see a fine stadium at Hampden Park, but this is not the appropriate moment, in the middle of the centennial celebrations, to press meetings with the SFA. But in a week or two I hope to arrange discussions.
    Mr. James Hamilton: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that many of the associated clubs have already made contributions to Hampden Park with a view to bringing it up to modern standards? Surely it is the responsibility of the Association and the League, if they want foreign teams to play in Scotland, to undertake this project. If the Government have money to spare, they should give it to the amateurs and to football as a whole rather than to the Queen's Park Football Club.
    Mr. Monro: That goes wider than the original Question, but I will bear in mind what the hon. Gentleman has said.
    Mr. Dalyell: In financial terms, what does the hon. Gentleman mean by saying that it is primarily a matter for Queen's Park Football Club?
    Mr. Monro: Exactly what it means in English—that it is primarily a matter for the football organisations.
    Mr. Ross: Have the Scottish Sports Council and Glasgow Corporation been party to these talks?
    Mr. Monro: Not so far, because Hampden Park belongs to Queen's Park Football Club and one would not wish to move too far away from its wishes at present. But I have no doubt that in future both the Sports Council and perhaps Glasgow Corporation will be involved as well.

    Huntlyburn Hospital
    Mr. David Steelasked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether, in view of the decision on 5th June of the South-East Region Hospital Board to press for an earlier completion date for Huntlyburn, he will now announce what funds are to be made available to enable building to commence at the earliest possible date.
    Mr. Monro: The current major hospital building programme still provides for the building of a new district general hospital at Huntlyburn as a two-phase project. The proposal by the South-Eastern Regional Hospital Board to build the hospital as a one-phase project, with the object of earlier completion, will be carefully studied when the more detailed information required is available from the board. It seems unlikely, however, that financial provision for the project could be made significantly earlier in the programme unless the start of another project of similar size were delayed.
    Mr. Steel: First, since the regional board owns the site, is there anything to stop a starting date in about 18 months' time if the financial provision is forthcoming? Secondly, if it is not forthcoming, does the hon. Gentleman accept that the board is bound to be involved in large and unnecessary expenditure on maintaining Peel Hospital and that it is in the interests of public expenditure that the sooner consent is given to the new hospital, the better?
    Mr. Monro: I agree that the sooner it is possible to start, the better, but we cannot simply pop £5 million projects in and out of programmes, particularly when it might mean postponing another project which other hon. Members might represent to me very strongly as being of prior importance. But, whatever the decision after we have looked at the board's suggestion, there may be some necessary upgrading of Peel.

    Rent Rebates (Stornoway)
    Mr. Donald Stewartasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what reply he is sending to Stornoway Town Council's letter dated 16th May on the subject of the operation of rent rebates.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Development, Scottish Office (Mr. George Younger): I am sending the hon. Gentleman a copy of the reply which was sent on 12th June.
    Mr. Stewart: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that reply. May I draw his attention to the fact that last year's bill for rent rebates amounted to £5,000 and that the figure this year will be £12,000? Is he aware that there is a high proportion of old people in the area and that it has

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    the highest unemployment in the United Kingdom? Does he accept that as a general principle relief of poverty on that scale should be borne by central Government funds and not by the less affluent local authorities?
    Mr. Younger: The inquiries which I have been able to make so far do not suggest that Stornoway has any higher percentage of people receiving rent rebates than has the rest of Scotland in general. I think we should bear in mind that the whole of the new system of housing finance has produced great relief in the ratepayer's contribution towards housing. Of course, as the hon. Gentleman will know, the contribution to rent rebates which was previously carried totally by the ratepayer is now carried—the vast majority, at any rate—by the Government subsidy, which this year is running at 85 per cent. and at the least will be 75 per cent. in years to come.
    Mr. Baxter: Does not that reply indicate clearly the terrible poverty which exists throughout Scotland? Are not the Government prepared to take automatic action to rectify the terrible wrong which has been done to our country over the years? Are they going to sit back on their backsides and tell us what is wrong and make no effort to improve the situation?
    Mr. Younger: With respect to the hon. Gentleman, if it were the case that there was what he describes as terrible poverty throughout Scotland, the rent rebate system is precisely and directly tailored to deal exactly with that problem. It provides rebates for anyone who finds the amount which he is required to pay more than he can afford. Whatever else we have done, we have solved that problem. I hope local authorities will find that to be so.

    Surgical Appliance Supplies (Fife)
    Mr. Gourlayasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he took into account the evidence submitted to the South-Eastern Regional Hospital Board's committee of investigation into the supply of surgical appliances to East and West Fife Hospitals Board of Management before he released to the Press a copy of his letter of 7th June to the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy Burghs; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Monro: Yes, Sir. I should like to thank the committee of investigation for what has clearly been a thorough and painstaking inquiry into the circumstances leading to irregular payments being made to the surgical appliance contractor.
    I am satisfied that the committee has investigated all the evidence thoroughly and given all the factors due weight in reaching its conclusions. I regard the laxity in applying proper arrangements for financial security as both serious and regrettable. Procedures have now been tightened up in Fife and my Department is considering urgently with regional hospital boards what further measures can be taken to prevent incidents of this nature occurring.
    Mr. Gourlay: Is the Minister aware that the purpose of my request to him last July for a public inquiry was to ensure that all the evidence would be made public? In fact, that has not happened. The Minister is in a very privileged position compared with other hon. Members. Further, is he aware that, while the report contains damning statements about some of the clinical staff, sections 3·5 and 3·6 of the report virtually condone the malpractices disclosed?
    Is the Minister aware that his endorsement of the committee's conclusions confirm my previous suspicion that this was a major whitewashing operation? In view of the seriousness of the offences, will not the Minister reconsider the position, particularly of those who violated the code of conduct, which states that they should be scrupulously impartial and honest and beyond suspicion? I suggest that the Minister should consider having at least a severe reprimand administered to those concerned. May I—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. That is enough.
    Mr. Monro: I note what the hon. Gentleman has said. It is important for him to know that the chairman of the committee announced that those involved would be able to see the introductory part of the report before it was discussed by the board and that only the final report, containing the committee's conclusions and recommendations, was to be issued by the board. I think that the evidence and all the facts were most carefully considered. My Department was represented by an assessor who sat on the committee. I feel in no doubt that the

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    recommendations of the board were the best in all the circumstances.
    Mr. Adam Hunter: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that I endorse almost everything that my hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy Burghs (Mr. Gourlay) has said? Further, is he aware that the contractor in this case is being sued in the civil court by the regional board for over £4,000? Is he also aware that I consider that the consultants and clinicians involved in receiving gifts and making so-called purchases should be asked to return the gifts or the cash value, or the savings from the purchases, to the regional board?
    Mr. Monro: The employees of the board whom the hon. Gentleman mentioned were criticised strongly in the report, and that has been published. There is no advantage in pursuing condemnation any further.
    Mr. William Hamilton: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that that answer is absolutely disgraceful? Does he accept that disciplinary action must be taken against the people who have offended in the way which has been suggested? Further, is he aware that there is a good deal of disquiet in Scotland, and particularly in Fife, about the manner in which this case has been dealt with? It seems that some people have been found out and punished and that others have been found out and not punished. Does the hon. Gentleman accept that what applies to one should apply to all?
    Mr. Monro: I am not at all surprised by the hon. Gentleman's approach to the matter. The inquiry went into the whole matter in great detail and the evidence was taken most carefully. In the light of the report from the regional hospital board, I do not think that further action is required.
    Mr. Robert Hughes: Am I correct in saying that one party to these transactions was convicted in court of an offence relating to supplies? If that is so, does the Minister accept that there were violations of the code by people in the employ of the Fife Regional Hospital Board? In the circumstances, does he not feel that a thorough inquiry should have led at least to a reprimand of the other parties to the offence, who apparently got off scot free?
    Mr. Monro: The hon. Gentleman is right in saying that one party was convicted in court and a suitable decision was made by the court. In relation to the consultants and the others mentioned in the inquiry, that information has been published and that is a reprimand.
    Mr. Gourlay: On a point of order. In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's replies, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.

    Rate Relief Refunds
    Mr. Dempseyasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many counties, large burghs and small burghs, respectively, operate the arrangement with the Supplementary Benefits Commission whereby a maximum of £15 rates relief is refunded to pensioners and other necessitous cases.
    Mr. Younger: Up-to-date information on this point is not available centrally.
    Mr. Dempsey: Is the Minister aware that the £15 disregard was fixed many years ago and that since June 1970, the date of the last General Election, the cost of living is acknowledged to have gone up by more than one-third? Is the hon. Gentleman willing to indicate to the Secretary of State for Social Services that he should give financial approval to requests by any authorities to increase the disregard by at least one-third, from £15 to £20, with a view to protecting pensioners paying rents and rates against a fall in the pound due to galloping inflation?
    Mr. Younger: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman's concern about this matter. He will also know that the unemployed, pensioners and others on supplementary benefit have received substantial increases during the last three years. Further, the hon. Gentleman will know that the system is an arrangement between the Supplementary Benefits Commission and the local authorities concerned. It would be for them to decide whether any change should be made.
    Mr. John Robertson: Will the hon. Gentleman tell the House whether the Scottish Office has given any instructions to the Scottish local authorities about the payment of the £15?
    Mr. Younger: No, Sir; we have given no instructions on that matter. Any discussions about it would have to take place between the Supplementary Benefits Commission and the local authorities concerned. It is not a matter in which the Scottish Office is involved.

    Ophthalmologists
    Mr. James Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what is the number of ophthalmologists in Glasgow and Lanarkshire, respectively; and what is the average waiting period for people waiting for tests in both places.
    Mr. Monro: There are 18 consultant ophthalmologists in Glasgow, 12 of whom are whole-time, five part-time, and one holds an honorary appointment. In Lanarkshire there are four, one whole-time and three part-time. The average waiting period in Glasgow is nine to 10 weeks and in Lanarkshire 36 weeks; but urgent cases are seen with the minimum of delay, and immediately if necessary.
    Mr. Hamilton: Would not the hon. Gentleman agree that the health service is intended to cover the whole country and that on that basis there should not be any frontiers? Would he not agree that, on the basis of information that I have, in some cases people have to wait as long as 15 months before receiving the necessary treatment? Would it not help for some people to be directed to Glasgow where the matter could be dealt with more expeditiously?
    Mr. Monro: I agree that the situation in Lanarkshire needs improvement. The regional hospital board is trying to direct patients who have been waiting a long time to other hospitals in the area where the position is rather better. I am able to say that a further appointment of a consultant for Lanarkshire has been approved.

    Area Health Boards (Appointments)
    Mr. Adam Hunterasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if, in view of the dissatisfaction in the West of Fife concerning the inadequacy of the area's representation on the proposed new area health board, he will review the composition of the board.
    Mr. Monro: I am not aware of the dissatisfaction to which the hon. Gentleman refers. The membership of the Fife Health Board is settled except for the additional members my right hon. Friend will be appointing towards the end of the year. When he does so, he will be taking account of any specific suggestions which may be made to him. I would stress, however, that members are being appointed for their individual contribution and not as representatives of any particular area or group.
    Mr. Hunter: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, if membership of this health board were on the basis of the parliamentary constituencies, Kirkcaldy would have five members, Fife three and Dunfermline three? If it were on the basis of the new district authority, Kirkcaldy would have seven and Dunfermline four. Is he further aware that there is no member of the present West Fife Hospital Board on this area health board? Does he realise that some people who are bitterly opposed to the creation of such a board have found themselves appointed to it?
    Mr. Monro: The hon. Member can prove anything by statistics. I believe that the majority of hon. Members would agree that the West Fife area from Kirkcaldy to Dunfermline is doing well with 11 out of the 15 members of the board, including the chairman, who lives in Dunfermline.
    Mr. William Hamilton: Has the hon. Gentleman taken account of the political affiliations of the appointments? Is he aware that I understand that neither the trade union nor the co-operative nominees have been accepted? Whether they were considered I do not know. Since the Minister talks about appointment on merit, will he have a good look at those who have been appointed from Dunfermline?
    Mr. Monro: I could not accept what the hon. Gentleman says about anyone appointed to the board. Every board has a nomination from the Scottish TUC. Otherwise I have not taken political affiliation into account at all. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will look at some of the chairmen of the board. If he has any suggestions to make, he can let us have them.
    Mr. Ewingasked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects to announce the remainder of the appointments to area health boards in Scotland.
    Mr. Monro: My right hon. Friend expects to appoint the balance of the membership of health boards towards the end of this year.
    Mr. Ewing: Is the hon. Gentleman aware there is great disquiet in Scotland about the serious imbalance being shown up by the earlier appointments to the area health boards? Is he further aware that his earlier announcement that appointments are made on the basis of what people have to offer the boards seems to mean in my constituency that the local authorities in Stirling, Falkirk and Grangemouth have absolutely nothing whatever to offer the Forth area health board? Is he prepared to substantiate this? Will his further appointments reflect the interest of the local authorities?
    Mr. Monro: I explained that appointments are on merit and are not meant to be representative of any particular organisation. The hon. Member knows there are five appointments to the board from the Falkirk and Grangemouth area. My right hon. Friend is willing to receive suggestions from hon. Members.
    Dr. Dickson Mabon: The hon. Gentleman said that he was not concerned about the political balance. Is it not the case that it has been the tradition of Governments in the past to appoint members of the STUC, the CBI and the Cooperative Union? Before he finishes making these appointments, will he take into account the fact that not one appointment has been made from the 42 names submitted by the Scottish section of the Co-operative Union?
    Mr. Monro: We asked a great many organisations for nominations and around 2,000 were received. Every health board has a nomination from the STUC. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to put forward suggestions, I am willing to receive them.
    Mr. MacArthur: Is my hon. Friend aware that the comments of Labour Members do not reflect the general welcome there has been for these appointments? Can he explain why Labour Members are so concerned yet apparently have not written to him to express their
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    concern? Is this not another example of the mischief which hon. Gentlemen opposite try to stir up in public life?
    Mr. Monro: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Those Labour Members who have written expressing their point of view have met with a modest degree of success.
    Mr. Robert Hughes: Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that there is serious disquiet about inadequate representation? Why is it that general practitioners, dentists and pharmacologists make up one-third of the appointments on the new boards while hospital porters and nurses are refused appointments? Will he rectify this? If the medical profession is to be so heavily represented, should not the general public and the trade unions be equally represented?
    Mr. Monro: The hon. Gentleman will recall from the debates we had during the passage of the Bill that the whole object was to have comparatively small area health boards, of a manageable size. If everyone was represented, the committees would be quite unmanageable.

    North Sea Oil
    Mr. Sillarsasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a further statement on the work of his Department towards securing industrial benefits for Scotland from North Sea oil.
    The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Gordon Campbell): The Scottish Office contributes directly through its responsibilities for planning, infrastructure and certain harbours. In addition, where other Departments and agencies have the primary responsibilities, my noble Friend the Minister of State has the rôle of co-ordinating Minister.
    Mr. Sillars: Will the right hon. Gentleman accept that actions always speak louder than words? May I refer him to the supply boat position? Will he confirm that it is within his knowledge that between now and 1980 we shall need between 150 and 170 supply boats for North Sea oil but that, to date, not one of these is on order in a Scottish yard? Is this not totally unacceptable? Will not Lord Polwarth have to do something about this before we accept the kind of words he has used about his rôle in the Scottish Office?
    Mr. Campbell: While we have been very quick in geting ready the harbours and bases from which supply boats can operate, including Peterhead, which was a very fast operation, it has been disappointing that Scottish firms have not so far been able to get the business of the supply boats. I think that there is one exception and I congratulate the firm which has got the orders. There have been firms in England which have been building supply boats for the gas operations going on in the past eight to 10 years off the English coast.
    Mr. Maclennan: Is there any governmental committee to which Lord Polwarth has access in his co-ordinating rôle to which the Secretary of State did not previously have access?
    Mr. Campbell: No. The committee system is such and the position of the Minister of State as the alternate to the Secretary of State is such that the Minister of State can attend a number of committees in place of the Secretary of State.
    Mr. Buchan: The whole thing is a charade.

    Electricity Generation
    Mr. Dalyellasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if, in the light of the latest projection of world oil shortage he will instruct the North of Scotland Hydro-Electric Board urgently to reconsider its decision to go ahead with an oil-burning power station at Boddam, Aberdeenshire, and to revert to the plan for a nuclear-powered station at Stakeness.
    Mr. Younger: No. I do not accept that current projections of oil supply require reconsideration of the decision to build a power station at Peterhead, which will be designed to burn gas as well as oil, and which is urgently needed to meet electricity demands in the north-east of Scotland from 1978.
    Mr. Dalyell: Following a series of long, detailed and well argued letters from me to the Minister on this subject, does the hon. Gentleman agree that in the month that Michigan and Detroit start rationing petrol it is not very wise to commit ourselves to burning liquid hydrocarbons for 30 years? Furthermore, how can the nuclear industry iron out its complex diffi-
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    culties if it is not given the orders to enable it to do so?
    Mr. Younger: I would not dispute that the hon. Gentleman's letters to me are long, detailed and well argued.
    Mr. Ross: What about the answers?
    Mr. Younger: They are shorter, less detailed, but also very well argued.
    Whatever we would have wished the fuelling of the power station to be, there was no possibility of getting it into operation by the necessary date of 1978 unless we had it as a non-nuclear station. That was why the decision was taken, and I see no reason to reconsider it. But, as the hon. Gentleman knows, the excellent site at Stakeness which was available for a nuclear station is still being keept available for that purpose. When the studies at present in hand are completed, it will be possible for the matter to be reconsidered.
    Mr. Ewing: The Minister said that the power station was being designed to burn gas. Will he make clear whether the gas will be derived from North Sea oil and, therefore, supplied by the oil companies or whether it will be supplied on offer from the Gas Council?
    Mr. Younger: No decision about what gas might be used would be taken until the time came to consider whether there was a need to use gas. The station is designed to be fired by oil, but it is also designed in a way which would enable it to be supplied by gas from any source if that should prove appropriate.
    Mr. Ross: Was not the original proposal of the hydro board for a nuclear station, and is it not the case that as long as the discussions and arguments in the Government Departments went on it was inevitable that there had to be a return to an oil-fired station?
    Mr. Younger: I think that it was inevitable if we were to have the power station in production by 1978. The right hon. Gentleman will admit, if he thinks about it, that he is very much oversimplifying the matter. There is much difficult technical evaluation to be done. There has been no delay in doing it. It would have been ridiculous to put in hand a station which could not be ready in time and, still worse, to put it in hand with a

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    form of reactor which had not been properly proved. I could imagine what the right hon. Gentleman would have said if we had done that.

    Peat
    Mr. Maclennanasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will seek to amend the law governing the right to cut peat.
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: My right hon. Friend has no proposals to change the present position.
    Mr. Maclennan: But is not the Minister aware that there is great uncertainty about the present position and that there is some anxiety that the cupidity of landlords in the Highlands may lead to their seeking to take advantage of this uncertainty to abridge unilaterally or alter the peat-cutting rights of crofters customarily enjoyed over generations?
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: I appreciate that the hon. Gentleman has drawn a specific case to my notice on which I cannot advise because of the legal implications. I am not aware of any general demand for a change. If the hon. Gentleman has evidence of a general demand for a change, I shall be glad to hear from him.
    Mr. Maclennan: In his review of crofting law, and before he brings forward next Session proposals for amendment of the law, will the hon. Gentleman consider bringing this matter under review by the Government?
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: I am prepared to look at that point, but I would require evidence to see whether there was any need for a change. I have had no evidence so far, even from the hon. Gentleman.
    Mr. Clark Hutchison: Can my hon. Friend tell me roughly what the law is on this subject? Could I go and cut peat if I wanted to?
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: It would perhaps take a long time to explain the law, but basically the crofter has a right to cut peat on his own croft and sometimes, by custom, on other areas of the estate in which his croft is situated. In other instances the landlord can grant privileges to crofters and others to cut peat in particular places.

    Faroese Fisheries
    Mr. W. H. K. Bakerasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement following the negotiations which took place in Copenhagen during the earlier part of June 1973 on the fisheries around the Faroe Isles.
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: Discussions took place in Copenhagen on 16th and 17th June, on the basis of Danish proposals for a catch limitation scheme and for the restriction of trawling up to 24 miles from the Faroese coasts on a seasonal basis. Further discussions will be held after study of the revised proposals which the Danish Government undertook to circulate.
    Mr. Baker: Can my hon. Friend indicate when a final agreement is likely to be reached on the subject? Will he continue to keep in consultation with those most interested in the outcome of the talks?
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: It may take a little time for the Danes to circulate their new proposals to us. We would then require some weeks to consider them. We shall take the interests of the industry fully into account. As my hon. Friend may know, advisers from the industry were present in Copenhagen during the talks and were ready on the spot to give advice. I should hope to continue that arrangement.
    Mr. Ronald King Murray: Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind the importance of publicly demonstrating the drift of the talks so that the fishing industry may know what is going on? As the discussions with the Faroese authorities and Denmark appear to be going on reasonably amicably and Iceland is undertaking discussions with West Germany, will the Government consider the possibility of reopening negotiations with Iceland?
    Mr. Buchanan-Smith: On the first point, I shall keep the industry informed. I have had meetings with the Scottish trawler owners and British trawler owners. On the second point, I refer the hon. and learned Gentleman to what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said in answer to questions yesterday, namely, that we are entitrely ready to reopen negotiations with Iceland provided

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    it will agree to stop the harassment of British trawlers in those waters. The offer from our side is entirely open.

    School Building Finance
    Mr. MacArthurasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will indicate the amount of money available for school building in 1974–75; how this compares with 1973–74; and if he will make a statement.
    Mr. Monro: £54·5 million which is £10·1 million more than in 1973–74. The increase includes £5·5 million as the first instalment of the programme for nursery education building. With permission, I shall give details in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
    Mr. MacArthur: Is my hon. Friend aware that I should like to discuss the school building allocation for Perthshire with him on some other occasion? Having said that, I congratulate him on the progress which the figures show. Can he give some more information about the progress of his plans for the development of nursery school education in Scotland?
    Mr. Monro: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and I am always glad to talk to him about any difficulties he may have in Perthshire. The nursery education programme is going ahead as fast as possible. Some of the money available was announced in the last White Paper and upgraded with relation to the cost of building. As regards the criticism of some local authorities, the bids from local authorities for the main programme in 1973–74 amounted to £62 million, of which £26 million was available. This year the bids were no less than £108 million, of which an increased sum of £29 million was available. In many cases they are asking for the moon and are complaining about cuts when in fact they are receiving more.
    Mr. David Steel: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the local authorities were led by the December 1972 White Paper to expect an augmented programme? Is he aware that the Roxburgh education authority feels particularly disappointed that the money for the Tweedbank School has been included as part of the normal allocation instead of as a separate project, as was earlier expected?
    Mr. Monro: I appreciate that the Roxburgh County Council has written to my
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    Department. We shall look very carefully at the complaints which it has made. It would be wrong for me to go further than that.
    Mr. Sillars: Is the Minister confident that the 1974–75 programme is secure and that, when the Government come to resolve the contradictions of their consumer-led growth and balance of payments deficit, there will be no substantial cut-back in the Scottish education programme?
    Mr. Monro: As the hon. Gentleman knows, there has been no cut-back in the education programme even with the recent cuts in Government expenditure. Those cuts did not touch education, and there is no reason why the programme I have announced should not go ahead.
    Mr. Dempsey: Does the Minister agree that Lanarkshire has had much less than half the money it wanted? The amount Lanarkshire has allocated for secondary school building in 1974–75 will preclude any expansion. For that reason the education authority has asked to meet the Minister. Could not something be done to eliminate the chaos due to the shortage of secondary school places as soon as is humanly possible?
    Mr. Monro: No Government, past, present or future, can ever fulfil all the wishes of local authorities in educational building. We must be practical about this. Lanarkshire is receiving nearly £6 million—£5,981,000—towards school building. If the hon. Gentleman wishes, individually or with other hon. Members representing Lanarkshire constituencies, to meet me subsequent to the discussions between the Department and local officials, I shall be happy for him to do so.
    Following is the information:

    1973–74 £m.

    1974–75 £m.

    1. Main programme of primary and secondary school building other than primary school improvement

    26·2

    28·8

    2. Primary school Improvement programme

    9·8

    12·2

    3. Nursery schools and classes

    —

    5·5

    4. Minor works

    4·2

    4·2

    5. Special schools

    3·0

    3·0

    6. Hostels

    1·2

    0·8

    44·4

    54·5

    Mr. Eadieasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what communications he has received from education authorities in Scotland in relation to the financial allocations for school buildings; and what replies he has sent.
    Mr. Monro: Nine education authorities have asked for meetings to put forward a case for a larger allocation for the 1974–75 school building programme. These representations have only recently been received and I shall be considering the position with each of the authorities concerned.
    Mr. Eadie: Surely the Minister must agree that it does no good to try to create the impression that there is not uproar in the educational system because of the Government's proposed financial school building allocation. Is he aware that in the county of Midlothian three-quarters of the proposals put before him for school building have been cut? Bearing in mind the demands of the new town and the noises which the Government make about nursery school education and building provision in that respect, is it any wonder that education authorities are beginning to question whether the Government are in earnest about providing the proper facilities for educational purposes in Scotland?
    Mr. Monro: The Government are most certainly involved in providing extra facilities for education. In 1973–74 Midlothian asked for £553,000 for its main programmes and following increases in building costs and improvement schemes it will receive £1,006,000. This year it applied for £5·2 million and it will receive at the end of the day £1·32 million. Thus, it is getting £300,000 more than it received last year. Therefore, it is wrong to say that there are building cuts.
    Mr. James Hamilton: Is the Minister aware that Lanarkshire in respect of its school building programme has received only £2·1 million and that representation has already been made to him seeking an urgent meeting? Bearing in mind the great urgency of the school building situation, will he take another look at the matter since all local authorities seem to be dissatisfied with what is happening?
    Mr. Monro: I know the hon. Gentleman's interest in this matter in relation to Lanarkshire. I have asked my Depart-
    1522
    ment to discuss the immediate position with the Lanarkshire Education Authority, and I shall meet the hon. Gentleman and other Lanarkshire Members if they are still dissatisfied.
    Mr. MacArthur: Is my hon. Friend aware that in Scotland we still have a long way to go to overcome the deficiencies in the Labour Government's educational policies? Will he recognise that, welcome as is the increased allocation for Perthshire, it is inadequate to meet the needs in respect of completing the building of Perth Grammar School and other secondary extensions and buildings, which are now matters of pressing urgency in providing secondary education for the county?
    Mr. Monro: My hon. Friend is a per sistent advocate for the schools of Perth. After my Department has discussed the situation with his education authority—and if my lion. Friend is still dissatisfied with the situation—I shall have another talk with him about the matter.
    Mr. Carmichael: Has the Minister made any allowance for the staggering inflation in school building costs? Does he realise that he has already had to increase the 1971 figure by 13 per cent. and the 1973–74 figure by 30 per cent.? Has he allowed in his calculations for the even greater increase in inflation?
    Mr. Monro: The figures for 1973–74 and 1974–75 include a 22 per cent. increase in school building costs.

    Earning Power
    Mr. Machinasked the Secretary of State for Scotland what study his Department has made of the effect of the present loss of earning power in Scotland due to the prevailing level of unemployment.
    Mr. Gordon Campbell: Through the Scottish Economic Planning Board, my Department keeps all aspects of the Scottish economic situation, including unemployment, under regular review.
    Mr. Machin: Is the Secretary of State aware that the loss of spending power in Scotland because of registered unemployment is about £160 million a year and in respect of unregistered employment is possibly £200 million a year, and that this loss has a big effect on the Scottish

    1523
    economy? If there were less unemployment, more money would be spent in the shops and there would be less need for rebates. What is the Secretary of State doing to create more jobs in Scotland to lessen the effect of unemployment?
    Mr. Campbell: The figures given by the hon. Gentleman take no account of the payment of unemployment benefits. He will, I am sure, welcome—as we all do on this side of the House—the improvement in the unemployment figures in Scotland, in particular the improvement of more than 50,000 in the past year.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Will my right hon. Friend say whether I am right in recollecting that his predecessor, the right hon. Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Ross), used to regard the level of emigration from Scotland as a key indicator of the state of the Scottish economy? Has my right hon. Friend received any messages of congratulation from his predecessor on the latest improvement in the level of emigration?
    Mr. Campbell: I recall that the right hon. Gentleman used to make a considerable point about emigration. I have not yet received the expected message from him.
    Mr. Ross: As the last published figures show an increase of about 6,000 in the year, and as the latest figures will not be available until November, I am not in favour of sending premature congratulations. Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate the serious problem which will arise next winter? We have managed to reduce unemployment, and we are all glad of that, but because of the increase in the school leaving age a great many youngsters have remained at school instead of coming on to the labour market. Those school leavers will start to flow after the summer and in the new year. Is the Secretary of State taking special steps to ensure that employment is available for them?
    Mr. Campbell: I am very concerned about the continuing unemployment, but all the signs are that there are confidence and expansion in Scotland.
    Mr. MacArthur: Does my right hon. Friend recall a supplementary question I asked him a little time ago to which I
    1524
    received no satisfactory reply? Will he explain to the House why right hon. and hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition benches always look unhappy when they hear good news?
    Mr. Campbell: That is not a question to which I should reply.
    Mr. Alexander Wilson: Is the Secretary of State aware that the Government in the first instance escalated the unemployment figures to astronomical proportions? Does he agree that it is not right for him to accept credit for reducing unemployment figures which the Government deliberately increased? Is the Minister further aware that there are more than 92,000 unemployed in Scotland, without counting hidden unemployment, and although, in my constituency, the unemployment total has gone down slightly, long-term unemployment has increased by 15 per cent. in two employment exchange areas within the last 12 months? Does he not realise that the Government are responsible for the high unemployment figures?
    Mr. Campbell: I know the figures, and I referred to them earlier. I do not accept most of what the hon. Gentleman said. I repeat that I continue to be very concerned about unemployment in Scotland despite the welcome improvement in the figures of more than 50,000 in the past year.

    Hunterston
    Mr. Lambieasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is now in a position to make an announcement on steel and oil projects at Hunterston following his decision to grant planning permission for an iron ore terminal.
    Mr. Gordon Campbell: As my statement of 30th May indicated, the immediate intention is to consult the interests involved. Consultations with the county council should begin very soon and the other consultations will follow.
    Mr. Lambie: Is the Secretary of State aware that the Department of the Environment, in co-operation with the Department of Trade and Industry, has sanctioned two oil refineries in the Thames area and one in Wales? Will he confirm that the Government's intention is to refine Scottish oil from the North Sea in refineries in England and

    1525
    Wales or in Europe? When will he give permission for oil refineries to be built in areas where people want them and where they are needed?
    Mr. Campbell: The siting of oil refineries is subject to the procedures of the planning Acts. The statement which I issued on Hunterston—to which the Question refers—was a carefully prepared one to which the Press gave prominence and which I commend to the hon. Gentleman for study. It sets out the factors clearly.
    Mr. Edward Taylor: As there have been several reports of private firms being interested in building steelworks in the Hunterston area, will my right hon. Friend say how authentic are these reports? If he cannot do so now, when will he do so? Secondly, if such a positive proposal were put forward and approved by the Government, would it first be necessary to obtain the approval of the European Coal and Steel Community?
    Mr. Campbell: There is nothing to prevent private firms making planning applications for Hunterston. They would be considered in the light of the general decision that was taken over two years ago and the factors contained in my statement of 30th May. I do not think that EEC considerations would inhibit those applications.
    Mr. Lawson: If all that has been said about the immense value of Hunterston to the nation is accurate, may I ask the right hon. Gentleman not to fritter away those advantages on small schemes that might be developed elsewhere but keep in mind when he considers applications the longer-term uses to which the area might be put?
    Mr. Campbell: Yes, I agree, and that is what is spelt out in my statement. That is an issue on which the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Lambie) does not agree. He has been pressing for quick development regardless of whether individual projects were of immense value to Scotland. The requirement in my general planning decision of two years ago that individual projects must be put to the Secretary of State for his approval is based on the necessity for the site to be used only for projects which are of immense importance to Scotland.
    Mr. John Robertson: Has the right hon. Gentleman received any proposals since he made his statement? In the light of the inaction that has been characterstic of his Department in relation to the development of Hunterston, is it his intention to freeze the area for 20 years?
    Mr. Campbell: I advise the hon. Gentleman to read my statement of 30th May. He clearly has not done so. It explains these matters at much greater length than I am able to do in answer to a supplementary question.

    Government Offices (Dispersal)
    Mr. Doigasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he is satisfied with the number of Civil Service jobs recommended for Scotland in the Hardman Report.
    Mr. Gordon Campbell: The Hardman Report has been submitted to the Government and published as a basis for discussion. It raises a number of complex issues which the Government are now studying.
    Mr. Doig: Is not the Secretary of State aware that the people of Scotland are extremely disappointed at the small number of jobs recommended in the report for Scotland? Does he not realise that part of the reason for this small number of jobs in an area of high unemployment is due to the fact that the Government have recommended for investigation only one site in the whole of Scotland? Did not this very fact contribute to the small number of jobs we were allocated?
    Mr. Campbell: I am well aware of the disappointment in Scotland at the report of Sir Henry Hardman, which contains his own views. I would have been surprised if there had not been disappointment about his recommendations, but I do not think that the fact that the Glasgow area was indicated as a suitable location was a factor in the consideration of this matter. It is clear that there are other areas in Scotland which also are very suitable for office accommodation.
    Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Will my right hon. Friend confirm my impression that the period of greatest relative prosperity in Scottish history—relative to the prosperity of other parts of the United Kingdom—was a period in which the only

    1527
    civil servant in Scotland was the private secretary to the Lord Advocate?
    Mr. Campbell: I would say that that is a matter of judgment and opinion.
    Mr. Ross: Does the right hon. Gentleman appreciate that in many ways the Hardman Report was insulting as well as disappointing? Will he take a hard look at the practicalities of the situation in respect of the dispersal of Ministry of Defence establishments involving the livelihood of 11,000 people? It is said that the most obvious dispersal areas are along the westerly axis from London. Bearing in mind the Government statement that all previous dispersal operations could have happened elsewhere, is it not surprising that the dispersal seldom gets beyond Carlisle? Will the right hon. Gentleman press for a change of attitude in this respect?
    Mr. Campbell: We must remember that this was the report of one person, Sir Henry Hardman, who was expressing his own views. I shall ensure that the factors relating to Scotland are taken fully into account in the Government's consideration of the report.

    Erskine Bridge (Toll Charges)
    Mr. Ian Campbellasked the Secretary of State for Scotland how many representations he has received against the toll charges on Erskine Bridge since it was opened.
    Mr. Younger: Since July 1971 my right hon. Friend has received 19 representations about the toll charges. Six related to the policy of charging tolls or to the level of charges. The remainder were concerned with concessionary rates or season tickets.
    Mr. Campbell: Is the Minister aware that he has received about the same number of complaints as I have received during that period of time? Does he appreciate that many of the daily users of the Erskine Bridge who travel backwards and forwards are showing growing militancy, and does he not agree that something must be done about the situation? Will he consider completely abolishing tolls?
    Mr. Younger: As the hon. Gentleman will know, it was his own Labour Government which decided originally that this bridge was suitable for tolls, and I am
    1528
    sure that as a sportsman he would not expect us to change the rules at halftime. I have no evidence to suggest that the economic benefit of the bridge is reduced by the fact that there is a system of tolls. The tolls are very modest and they represent a good bargain for those who use the bridge compared with the cost of going round by a longer route.
    Mr. Costain: Is my hon. Friend able to give the House any information about the revenue which has actually been received compared with the revenue which was estimated at the time of building?
    Mr. Younger: As my hon. Friend will know, the traffic has been considerably lower than was originally forecast, but I am glad to say that there have recently been substantial increases in traffic which have significantly reduced the difference between the forecasts and the actual figures. Traffic crossing the bridge during the second year of operation will be in the region of 2·1 million vehicles compared with a forecast of 2·6 million vehicles. This represents a considerable improvement in terms of results.
    Mr. Buchan: The Minister must realise the nature of the problem. Since many people in the new community have to cross the bridge twice a day, the payment of the toll is almost equivalent to paying rent. Will the Minister stamp on the suggestion by his Department about the possibility of increasing rates to deal with the financial problem? Since he mentioned the concept of sportsmen observing the rules, does he not agree that where the rules are found not to work they should be changed?
    Mr. Younger: I am afraid that I did not hear the last part of the hon. Gentleman's supplementary question. The existence of a new community, by which the hon. Gentleman obviously means the people in the Erskine new town, was well known to the Labour Government. If he felt so strongly about the matter, he could have done something about it when he held office. May I deal with the question of the charging of tolls where they occur? I do not think they are a major disincentive to people using the bridge and I repeat that it is cheaper than going by another route.
    Mr. Grimond: How many road bridges in the south-east of England have tolls levied on them?
    Mr. Younger: There are a number. Among them are the Severn Bridge, the Tamar Bridge, the Tyne Tunnel, the Mersey Tunnel and the Dartford to Purfleet Tunnel in England. All are subject to tolls. The principle is the same, and both Governments have followed it. Where there is a major estuarial crossing and there is an economic benefit in the shorter route provided by a bridge, tolls are charged.
    Mr. Gourlay: Bearing in mind that since the opening of the Forth road bridge more than 8 million toll charges have been collected, in view of the rapid increase in the volume of traffic using the bridge will the hon. Gentleman look at the possibility on that bridge at least of reducing toll charges by 50 per cent.?
    Mr. Younger: On the evidence available to me, I am not convinced that there is any case on financial grounds for reducing the tolls about which the hon. Gentleman asks. These bridges are built outwith the normal programme because it is proposed to impose toll charges. If they are built on that basis we cannot go back on it five years later because it suits us to do so.
    Several Hon. Members rose—
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Private Notice Question. Mr. Benn.
    Mr. Lawson: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Has not the Chair ruled more than once that lengthy supplementary questions and answers take away from the value of Question Time? If on each Question there is what amounts to a minor debate, does not that also detract from the value of Question Time? Could we not speed up Questions much more?
    Mr. Speaker: I hope that the hon. Gentleman's appeal will not fall upon deaf ears. Nothing could please me more than the implementation of what he suggests.

ROCHE PRODUCTS LIMITED
Mr. Benn (by Private Notice)asked the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry whether he would make a statement on the price increase announced by Roche in defiance of the Monopolies Commission order.
The Minister for Trade and Consumer Affairs (Sir Geoffrey Howe): The prices of certain drugs, namely Librium and Valium, supplied in this country by Roche Products Limited have been reduced by the Regulation of Prices (Tranquillising Drugs) Orders 1973 following the Monopolies Commission report.
I have to tell the House that the company, through its solicitors, has given notice to the Government that unless the Government agree to certain conditions in connection with the possible repayment of moneys representing the difference between the pre-order and post-order prices, Roche intends to disregard the order and to raise prices to pre-order levels tomorrow at noon. I am placing copies of the letter from the company's solicitors of 25th June in the Library.
It has been reported that, without waiting for the Government's reply, Roche today informed pharmaceutical wholesalers that prices have been raised in breach of the order as from 9 a.m. today, but I have subsequently been informed by the company's solicitors that this is not the case.
The Government are ready to seek an injunction in the High Court to secure compliance with the order. The Government will continue with the arrangements for the debates on the motions in both Houses for an affirmative resolution on the Regulation of Prices (Tranquillising Drugs) (No. 3) Order 1973.
Roche's threatened non-compliance with the order has caused great uncertainty and possible financial risk to thousands of retail and wholesale chemists. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services is watching the position carefully but sees no need for immediate action.
Mr. Benn: I am very grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for his statement and especially for his agreement to publish the text of the letter so that the House and the country may see what this company is seeking to do. It is clear from the right hon. and learned Gentleman's statement that what is in effect a militant multinational monopoly is trying to exploit for its own benefit those who use the National Health Service. I assure the right hon. and learned Gentleman that he can count on the full

1531
support of the Opposition in the very strong line which apparently he intends to take.
May I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman these questions? Is he satisfied that he has adequate powers already to deal with the situation, and will this involve a criminal act or will it simply come under another category of law breaking? Secondly, has he adequate powers to get the information required, and is it possible that Section 8 of the Counter-Inflation Act, which gives him power to amend previous legislation if it relates to prices and charges, could be used if the monopolies legislation required to be changed for this purpose? Thirdly, does the EEC have any powers which may restrict the action of Her Majesty's Government? Finally, does not this confirm the wisdom of the Opposition's proposals for some element of public ownership in the pharmaceutical industry?
Sir G. Howe: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his support of what I have told the House, although I cannot go along with him in the implication that he draws in the last part of his supplementary question.
The right hon. Gentleman asks whether we have powers to enforce compliance with the order and whether they are of a criminal or a civil nature. As I understand it, compliance with an order of the Monopolies Commission is secured by means of an injunction and by the associated civil remedies which may lead to the full sanctions available in the High Court.
The right hon. Gentleman also asks whether we have power to obtain information from the company. The House will recall that this has been at the heart of the problem. As the Monopolies Commission records in paragraph 156 of its report, it asked the company to provide in support of its claim certain details of the group's trading for 1970 which, in the Commission's view, was
"… the minimum we thought necessary for our purpose."
The group refused to supply that information. To this day, that remains the position. At no stage, even before the Committee set up in the other place, has the information been forthcoming.
1532
As for the possible use of the provisions of Section 8 of the Counter-Inflation Act, I am afraid that, not having had an opportunity to consider the matter, I can only say that my impression is that those powers can be used only for the purpose of that legislation.
I am not aware of any powers available to the European Economic Communities restricting our own powers in relation to this matter.
Mr. Tugendhat: Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that the behaviour of Roche throughout this controversy has occasioned grave disquiet amongst many industrial companies, especially those engaged in the pharmaceutical industry, where it is felt that the company is behaving in an extraordinary and unreasonable manner? Will my right hon. and learned Friend emphasise the point which he has made already, that the basis of the dispute is the company's refusal to provide information which almost any company in any other part of the world would regard as reasonable if it were given to any journalist and published in a newspaper? The dispute is not about the matters of principle raised by Roche but about the company's refusal to substantiate its claims by providing basic information. Is it not the case that if the company substantiated its claims the Government would be prepared to consider them?
Sir G. Howe: I agree with my hon. Friend that the behaviour of Roche in this matter has caused disquiet to many other companies, and not only in this industry, and is unrepresentative of the conduct of companies whose affairs are investigated by the Monopolies Commission. The Monopolies Commission was seeking information. It required further information to enable it to arrive at a judgment taking account of the matters that Roche would have wished to put forward. In the absence of that information the Commission made every allowance possible and arrived at an independent judgment. It reached the conclusion that the research and promotion costs claimed grossly exceeded levels which should be taken into account in arriving at a fair price. That is the underlying difficulty in the dispute.
Mr. Pavitt: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman confirm that under

1533
Sections 41 and 46 of the Patents Act there is power to purchase from alternative sources similar medicinal products having the same therapeutic quality? Will he bear in mind that Roche has had a free run and, according to the Monopolies Commission, has been making fairly large profits for 14 years? Since there are only two years to run, although I do not suggest there should be any element of a threat, will the right hon. and learned Gentleman confirm that he does not preclude the possibility of using weapons which he has to hand?
Sir G. Howe: The two sections of the Act are available for use in the two circumstances which they apply. In fact there is no reason at present to believe that there will be any case for using them. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Services has no reason to anticipate difficulty in securing the continued availability of these drugs. But obviously my right hon. Friend will bear in mind what the hon. Gentleman says.
Sir Harmar Nicholls: Would my right hon. and learned Friend bear in mind that he has the support of every reasonable person for the Government establishing their authority in the interest of the nation? In view of the last sentence of the comments by the right hon. Member for Bristol, South-East (Mr. Benn), will he beware of the help offered by the Opposition, as those words show that they would not be working on the merits or demerits of this case, but using it as a hook on which to hang their usual political prejudices about public ownership?
Sir G. Howe: There is no question of using or advancing political prejudices of the kind to which my hon. Friend has referred. The position is as he stated it. The prices of these drugs charged by this company have been considered by the Commission established by the authority of Parliament and in accordance with the duly laid down procedures of that body. The Commission came to a certain conclusion, as a result of which I made this order. The order has been affirmed by this House and been the subject of debate in the other place. We are proceeding upon that basis in accordance with the will of Parliament and acting, as we believe, in the interests of the nation.
Mr. English: Is there not a more general power to break a patent than that mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt)? Would not the solution be to allow other pharmaceutical firms to manufacture the products, including perhaps the British-owned firm in my constituency?
Sir G. Howe: The powers referred to by the hon. Member for Willesden, West (Mr. Pavitt) are the principal powers of this kind. I do not know of any wider power of the kind referred to by the hon. Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. English).
When considering this matter my right hon. Friend has, on the one hand, to consider the availability of the drugs in question, and as a general rule we ought always to remember the extent to which the great majority of pharmaceutical companies are responsible for the development of drugs of this kind and are entitled, in the general view of the House, to recover some profit by means of patents for their original investment and research. The question is how far and to what extent.
Mr. Dalyell: Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that some of us, after many hours on the Counter-Inflation Bill, left Committee Room No. 10 under the impression that the powers of disclosure related not only to inflation, but to monopolies? Is he now saying that this is wrong and that the Counter-Inflation Act does not apply?
Sir G. Howe: The powers of the Counter-Inflation Act are available for the purposes and in the context of that Act. In this case it is beside the point, because we are concerned with the extraction of information from outside this country. It was that information that the Monopolies Commission sought. If that information had been made available, it would have helped the Commission to appreciate the case that Roche claimed to put forward. That could not be helped by the exercise of disclosure powers of whatever kind in this country.
Mr. McBride: Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman accept that there is no legislation in the European Economic Community for such a position as has been stated? Would he further accept, in the context of a multi-national

1535
company, that the Commission's definition is that this is second generation thinking born of the original Treaty of Rome, so there is no legislation whatsoever?
Sir G. Howe: I do not quite follow the hon. Gentleman. Articles 85 and 86 of the Treaty of Rome give the Commission power to deal with commercial practices which, in accordance with their provisions, are operating contrary to the proper working of the Market. Those powers can be and have been exercised by the Commission in a number of cases. It is a different question whether they will be exercised in this case.
Mr. Benn: Would the right hon. and learned Gentleman look again at the powers in the Counter-Inflation Act? Paragraph 40 of the Pay and Prices Code makes it clear that price reductions can be forced upon a company where profit margins are exceeded. Hence, this must carry with it the power to get by force, under the provisions of the Counter-Inflation Act, the information necessary to make such a judgment.
Would he recognise that there would be widespread resentment if wage claims were held down under the Counter-Inflation Act with the possibility of criminal action, whereas only civil action could be taken against a multinational company?
Finally, would he recognise that the problem of the multinational company is not confined to the trade union or workers' side, but threatens the sovereignty of Government and must be seen to be a major problem? Whether or not hon. Members agree with the solution put forward by the Opposition, the multi-national company is a threat to and erodes the national sovereignty of nation States.
Sir G. Howe: The position about this multinational company and our powers is that we have the powers which the House has authorised me to exercise. Those powers have been exercised by the making of an order against the company. The only point at which the powers of any nation state run out is when it seeks to exercise powers outwith and beyond the jurisdiction. If we seek, either under the Counter-Inflation Act or under this legislation, to enforce disclosure from defendants who are not within our jurisdiction, there is a manifest limit to what
1536
can be done in that respect. However, that has not prevented the Monopolies Commission, in the absence of co-operation by the company, from reaching the conclusion that it has reached and recommending as it has recommended. We have been able to make this order fixing the prices at which the products may be sold in this country. So, within the jurisdiction and under our existing powers, an appropriate order has been made.

BILL PRESENTED
  COMPANIES BILL
  Sir Brandon Rhys Williams, supported by Mr. Sydney Bidwell, Mr. David Crouch, Mr. Robert Edwards, Mr. Robert McCrindle, Mr. Tom Normanton, Mr. John Pardoe, Mr. David Price, Mr. Nicholas Ridley and Sir John Rodgers, presented a Bill to require certain companies to appoint non-executive directors; to require such directors jointly to present independent annual statements to the shareholders; and for purposes connected therewith; and the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time upon Friday 20th July and to be printed. [Bill 169.]

  MINIMUM INCOME BILL
  3.45 p.m.
  Mr. John Pardoe: I beg to move,
  That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide for the payment by employers of a minimum income.
  The Bill would establish a national minimum income. It is of the utmost importance in our industrial relations and in our war on poverty. In short, I seek to bring in positive discrimination in favour of the lower paid. The evidence of the post-war period shows that nothing less will do.
  Why is minimum earnings legislation necessary? Simply because nothing else has worked. Statistics give a picture of the extent of low pay and show it for nothing less than a national scandal.
  I define minimum earnings as two-thirds of average industrial earnings. On present figures that would be approximately £24 a week. The latest survey figures are for April 1972 when the minimum would have been about £22 a week.

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  In April 1972, 1,100,000 men aged 21 and over were earning less than that amount. Excluding overtime, the number rises to 2,100,000. Excluding overtime, 25 per cent. of adult male manual workers had weekly earnings below £22 a week in that month.
  I have not included statistics for women, not because they are not important, but because the equivalent statistics are for women above 18 years of age, and they are not directly comparable, and because equal pay is not yet with us. When it is, the same formula for minimum earnings which I am proposing in the Bill must apply equally to men and women.
  The low paid, despite efforts by all parties to help them, are with us still in considerable numbers. Who are the low-paid? Generally speaking, they are people disadvantaged in the labour market because of the areas in which they live, by discrimination on grounds of sex or race, because of weak or non-existent trade union organisation, because of lack of relevant skills, defects in work organisation and wage structures, age and disability and job insecurity and unemployment. It would be foolish to suggest that all these causes could be tackled in the same way.
  For example, those disadvantaged by the areas in which they live can be helped by regional policy, but let us not close our eyes to the limits of success even in this respect. Regional differences in earnings are considerable. In April 1972 full-time manual male workers aged 21 and over in the Coventry belt sub-region of the West Midlands had average weekly earnings of £39.50 per week, while in the western sub-division of the South-West region, covering most of Cornwall and North Devon, and the Borders sub-division of Scotland they had just over £27 a week. That is a difference of £12.50 or 46 per cent.
  Even more scandalous is the difference between the public and private sectors. In April 1972, more than 21 per cent. of full-time adult male manual employees of the national Government were earning below £22 a week. In local government employment it was 29·4 per cent. In other words, the Government, both cent-
  1538
  ral and local, are among the worst employers in the country. Governments of all shades could have acted direct upon this problem, but they have failed to do so.
  In my view, the reason for the continuing existence of the low paid is basically the same everywhere; it is the worship of the sacred cow of collective bargaining. Indeed, the Labour Government in their 1969 White Paper "Productivity, Prices and Incomes Policy after 1969" admitted as such. They said:
  "One of the weaknesses of the system of free collective bargaining has been its inability to solve the problem of the low paid",
  and amen to that. Collective bargaining has been a total failure in dealing with the low paid because collective bargaining is about power and not about social justice, and those who bargain are more concerned with the merits of power than with equality or fairness.
  There is, in our view, a need to legislate for national minimum earnings now. Social security, FIS, family allowances—and tax credits if we get them—all play their part, but there is no substitute for a firm bottom to the wage packet, and that is essential to the Government if phase3 is to have any chance of success at all, because rising prices affect the low paid much more harshly than they affect the high paid. A standstill on wages while prices rise—and that is happening now—may be inconvenient for the man on £35 a week, but for the man on £20 a week it is nothing less than a disaster. No wonder our poor workers get militant!
  My Bill seeks to set a safety net below which no one may be allowed to fall. It provides for methods of calculating the minimum. It provides for lower minimum rates for those below the age of 23, as in Holland. It provides for a transitional period during which the minimum shall be accomplished, and we estimate the cost as approximately 2 per cent. of the nation's wage bill. We believe that that is manageable and necessary.
  No Government in my lifetime have had a policy for income distribution. The epitaph on the Labour Government's record in this respect is perhaps best contained in the Fabian Publication "Labour and Inequality". John Hughes, Vice-Principal of Ruskin College and

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  Director of the Trade Union Research Unit, summed it up when he said:
  "We cannot find any important examples of relative improvement in the lot of the low-paid worker during the years of the Labour Government."
  The present Government have done no better. The Liberals believe in liberty and equality, and we know that we cannot make the first a reality in a society as unequal as ours is today. It is in that spirit that I seek leave to bring in the Bill.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Pardoe, Mr. Grimond, Mr. David Steel, Mr. Hooson, and Mr. Cyril Smith.

  MINIMUM INCOME
  Bill to provide for the payment by employers of a minimum income; presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Friday 20th July and to be printed. [Bill 170.]

  FOREIGN AFFAIRS
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr.Pym.]
  3.54 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Sir Alec Douglas-Home): We do not often have debates on foreign affairs in this House, and I intend to seize this opportunity to discuss the whole range of our foreign policy in some depth and to listen to the views and advice of right hon. and hon. Members.
  I think that, even though the right hon. Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) is unable to be here, the House would wish me to launch this debate and to give a general review of international affairs. I shall include in a section by itself in this speech something on Rhodesia. I think that that would be for the convenience of hon. Members.
  The feature of 1973 is change—widespread change, rapid change; change, we hope, for the better for the lives of ordinary people. The world scene is totally transformed in a number of ways from that which existed 10 or even five
  1540
  years ago. The last week's news has amply illustrated the extent of change. We have seen meetings and agreements between the President of the United States and Mr. Brezhnev which would have been literally impossible only a very few years back. The results in terms of détente or disarmament have to be proved in the future, but the trend towards collaboration between the world's two greatest Powers is of enormous potential. If it is the beginning of a continuing process from which trust and confidence can grow, it could lift a great weight of fear off the shoulders of ordinary men everywhere.
  There is perhaps another lesson for Britain which I believe it is legitimate and timely to draw. In all the summitry that is going on, it is membership of the Economic Community in Europe which gives us the opportunity and the right to have notice taken of us, and I have seen many examples of that lately. Alone, we would have been in danger of being bypassed by events. We can now talk on equal terms and gain results from this partnership, and I shall illustrate that as I go on with the rest of what I have to say.
  Another striking event of recent months is the fact and the degree to which China has at long last decided to play a full rôle in international politics. Here is another giant among the nations beginning to test its strength. These are early days, but we have been able to establish with China a very satisfactory working relationship. In my visit to Peking we were able to lay the foundations for it, in Mr. Chi P'eng Fei's recent journey to London we were able to consolidate understanding, and the Prime Minister has accepted an invitation to visit China later on.
  On some interpretations of current events, owing to our widely differing political systems, we disagree, but in long discussions over many hours and over wide areas of policy we have found a good deal of common ground. Although China's foreign exchange will for some time ahead be hard earned, there should be a measurable increase in Sino-British trade. There have already been substantial purchases of British aircraft—of great importance to employment in this country—and we may reasonably look for more.

  1541
  For a long time ahead China's concentration must inevitably be on her internal programme of agricultural and industrial development rather than on external activities. In foreign policy in relation to the area south of her she is interested in achieving the non-alignment of Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam. That is the concept on which successive British Governments have been working since 1954, and if the Paris agreements are kept by North Vietnam—there has lately been a great deal of anxiety about this, illustrated by the Canadian withdrawal from the supervisory commission because it was being thwarted in its task—there is a chance that the goal of re-alignment may still be realised. This again would lift a burden of fear from South-East Asia and would enable the individual countries to devote their resources to the reconstruction of their homes and to the basic development of the food resources which are the simple needs of these naturally peaceful peoples.
  Further afield, China does not wish to see the world divided and directed between the United States and the Soviet Union. That leads her to an active interest in the prospects of a united Europe moving towards economic and political unity. China also is definitely against monopoly control of the right of freedom of communication through all the oceans. Here again, our interests coincide. These are interests that she shares with her neighbour, Japan. We welcome the move towards a new and better relationship between the two major Powers in the area. I would underline here the importance of arriving at a satisfactory relationship between Japan and Western Europe, particularly in trade.
  The third event which could prove equally momentous is the fact that a conference on European security and co-operation is about to open in Helsinki. This is a conference in which every nation in Europe, together with the United States and Canada, has been invited to take part. Again, such a conference would have been inconceivable only five years ago. It is, when the Warsaw Pact, NATO, the neutrals, the United States and Canada take part, a historic event in itself.
  Of equal significance is the fact that the Atlantic Alliance and the European
  1542
  Community of the Nine, acting together throughout long months of preparation, have been successful in making sure that the conference concerns itself not simply with pious declarations of intent, but with matters of real substance which could lead to the practical beginnings of détente. High-sounding declarations of aims to live at peace in recent years have been two a penny; what have far too often been lacking are real moves towards peaceful living which could benefit the lives of ordinary people. That is what, essentially, we shall be talking about in Helsinki.
  We have therefore, in complete harmony over many months, worked hard to ensure that the agenda for Helsinki focuses the attention of the committees and sub-committees which it is agreed will process the practical measures which can be taken—measures of substance. It is an important distinction between general declarations of intent and matters of substance and areas of agreement which can be devised between East and West. It does so in considerable depth and detail. The full texts of instructions for the committees are already in the Library.
  I should like to draw particular attention to the terms of reference of the committee that will be dealing with the question of information and human contacts. They require the conference to:
  "prepare proposals to facilitate the freer and wider dissemination of information of all kinds"
  and to
  "prepare proposals to facilitate freer movement and contacts, individually or collectively, privately or officially, among persons, institutions and organisations of the participating States".
  To show the House the practical character of what the conference will do, it is worth specifying that one committee will be required to pay particular attention to contacts and regular meetings on a basis of family ties, reunification of families, marriage between nationals of different States, travel for personal and professional reasons, improvement of conditions for tourism on an individual or collective basis, meetings among young people, expansion of contacts and competitions, particularly in sport. These provisions go to the very root of this matter and the root of the trouble so far between East and West.

  1543
  It has been the absence of these normal contacts between peoples that has so far stultified the development of a satisfying and productive relationship between Western Europe and the Soviet Union and the other countries of Eastern Europe. Admittedly, just as the meetings of Mr. Nixon and Mr. Brezhnev have to be proved by deeds—the proof of the pudding will be in the eating—so the results of this conference will have to be proved. We cannot say yet whether the results will match the expectations.
  It was hard slogging to persuade the Russians to agree to any such agenda. It remains to test whether they will move from paper to action. All that I can say is that it is on the basis of this very detailed agenda and of the meetings of the committees set up to deal with these matters that the Russians have agreed. It is on this basis that they are coming to the conference with a public commitment to try to reach the goals which are set out under the different and detailed headings of the conference. The conference will open on 3rd July.
  By comparison with recent years, there are also some other hopeful signs—the recent series of German-Soviet agreements, for instance, and the settlement to which Britain was a party which has noticeably improved the lot of the inhabitants of Berlin. This is very different from the cold war and of course the airlifts into Berlin, which are within the recollection of hon. Members. Then, of course, there is the coming entry of the Federal Republic of Germany and East Germany into the United Nations. This is all a tentative start, but nevertheless it is a start which should give confidence that we may, with statesmanship, be able to reach a more fruitful relationship between East and West and build upon it.
  The House will therefore welcome with satisfaction, I think, the results of the meeting between President Nixon and Mr. Brezhnev which has just concluded. Among other achievements of that meeting is the signed Declaration of Principles on Strategic Arms Limitation, which should give an impetus to the talks in their second and more important phase. The agreement also on a common purpose to prevent nuclear war should help to reduce the risk of a war by accident or miscalculation. As I have read these documents and declarations very care-
  1544
  fully, I think that I can say with confidence that the interests of the Western alliance as a whole seem to have been fully protected in what has been said and written. Again, it is fair to deduce that all this is far more promising than it would have been five years ago.
  Therefore, the Helsinki conference will be complementary to these arrangements made between President Nixon and Mr. Brezhnev and, if it is successful, it will be a European and Russian contribution to an improvement in the quality and prospects for the coming generations in this part of the world in which we are so intimately associated.
  On Tuesday, therefore, we go to the first stage of the conference opening on 3rd July. The committee stage will take place in Geneva, beginning probably in September; when that has completed its work—it would be wrong to lay down any time limits; we do not want to be held up on the broad intentions but to work on until we get practical results—there will be a final meeting of the series which Ministers will attend. The level of ministerial representation will obviously depend, in the eyes of NATO and of the Nine, on the results that have been achieved.
  Some hon. Members are interested in the question of some kind of permanent institutional machinery following the conference. There is an item on the agenda which will enable these and other questions relating to any follow-up to the conference to be discussed. We have an open mind on the possibilities. We shall wish to see how the conference goes, what work emerges from it and the substance of the decisions taken before reaching any positive conclusions on new machinery of a permanent character.
  Relations between Eastern Europe and Western Europe remain of vital importance to this country. We in Britain fully recognise this and we regard our relationship with the Soviet Union as a most important element in our overall foreign policy. A satisfactory relationship requires both mutual respect and mutual interest. Our relations are now improving and have a chance on the new basis to thrive. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry paid a successful visit to Moscow a short time ago.

  1545
  As the House is aware, His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh is going to Kiev in September.
  We do not endorse all aspects of life in Russia. Nor do we expect that the Russians will wholly subscribe to the way of life which we have chosen. But we believe that we can expand our contacts and improve them. Just as we believe in the case of countries of whose political policies we do not approve that contact and not ostracism leads to peaceful change, so we must keep contacts with the Soviet Union and develop those contacts and hope for good results.
  The other conference is the Conference on Mutual and Balanced Force Reductions, which, it has now been announced, will open on 30th October. As the House will appreciate, this involves the most complex military calculations. It deals essentially with the security of both the Soviet Union and the NATO Alliance, European safety and Atlantic security.
  The essence of the problem will be this. How, when NATO as compared with the Warsaw Pact is so thin on the ground and when Russia is so close and America so far, can we reduce armaments and still preserve our security? How can we lower the level and still preserve the relative strength of the Warsaw Pact and the NATO Alliance? That is of absolute importance for a reason which is apparent, perhaps, to the professionals but not so apparent to ordinary people.
  For some time we relied for the security of West on what was known as the "tripwire" strategy, that is, the immediate response to any aggression by the use of nuclear weapons, either tactical or strategic. Its replacement by the present strategy of flexible response was right. I am certain of that. But to maintain flexibility there must be sufficient conventional forces on the ground to gain time for diplomacy to work in a crisis.
  I think that it is obvious that being sparsely spread on the ground in relation to the Warsaw Pact deployment, as far as nuclear weapons are concerned, and with Russia still continuing to add substantially to her already preponderant strength in that area, in spite of the calls of the Chinese front, and still adding substantially to the numbers of her men and the quality of her weapons, the Alliance
  1546
  has to be extremely cautious as to the numbers of men and conventional weapons which it can afford to withdraw.
  Unless we take care, we shall find ourselves—this is a very serious consideration—in a position of getting back to the "tripwire" again. I do not think that anyone would want to do that. Moreover, this time, the "tripwire" would be less credible.
  We discussed MBFR at the recent NATO Council meeting in Copenhagen and agreed that some progress had been made at the last exploratory talks in Vienna. The Alliance remains convinced that the test of progress must be our undiminished security at every phase of a programme of reductions; otherwise confidence will fly out of the window.
  This recent NATO meeting, which I attended last week, was generally judged by all there to have been successful. No one has said or would hold that the Alliance cannot be improved. Equally, no one suggested that any advantage would be gained by pulling it up at the roots and having a look at it and trying to plant something else. In the words of one delegate—perhaps the most unlikely delegate—"We have a jolly good Alliance; let us stick to it." By and large I think that that was felt to be the position which most of the Ministers held.
  Over the years Europe may be able to carry more responsibility. That is possible, although I hope that the Americans will recognise how much Europe already does in relation to European defence. This is, perhaps, not generally understood in this country, either. The Europeans provide 90 per cent. of the Alliance's ground forces in Europe, 75 per cent. of its air forces and 80 per cent. of its naval forces in the European area. By any count, that is a substantial contribution to the Alliance. It is a lot. The members of the "Eurogroup" have demonstrated their collective determination to maintain and improve their defence efforts within the Alliance through a five-year European defence improvement programme, which was started in 1970.
  Thus it can fairly be said that the Europeans recognise and are already responding to the need for a different balance in the relationship between the United States and Europe within the

  1547
  Alliance. Mr. Rogers, in turn, recognised this time in the NATO Council that the American presence in Europe was just as much about the security of the United States as it was about the security of the countries of Western Europe.
  There are some who would argue in the context of NATO that the internal policies of Greece and Portugal and Portuguese policies in Africa are such that those two countries should be expelled or suspended from NATO. This seems to me to mark a fundamental miscalculation of what foreign policy and security are about. How would a drastic blow to the security of the West, exposing the Portuguese seaboard of the Atlanic Alliance and the south-east corner of Europe, result in a change of the internal policies of those two countries?
  Foreign policy and defence are matters too serious to be conducted on the basis of emotional reactions to aspects of other Governments' policies over which we have no control. Rt. hon. Gentlemen of the Opposition, when they were in office, held exactly the same opinion.
  Mr. Robert Maclennan: When Opposition Members were in office, they were rather more trenchant in their criticisms of the Greek Government's internal policy, in the Council of Europe at least, than the present Government have been in the context of the EEC.
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: That may be a matter of opinion. [Interruption.] I think that it is a matter of opinion. The hon. and learned Member for Barons Court (Mr. Richard) is inclined to laugh. I quote to him what one member of his right lion. Friend's Cabinet said in this context. Presumably he was speaking for the whole Cabinet, although that does not always happen. He put it in this way:
  "NATO is a defence alliance. Actions against Greece in NATO would not necessarily help the Greek people, but would undermine the security of the south-east flank of NATO, thus putting at risk democratic ideals and parliamentary institutions on a scale far wider than Greece."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 16th December 1969; Vol. 793, c. 1139.]
  He was a wise right hon. Gentleman who spoke at that time. I should inform the hon. and learned Member for Barons Court that he was a most distinguished and respected right hon. Member and
  1548
  one who has considerable wisdom—Mr. George Thomson.
  A fourth development in recent months has been the growing realisation, on both sides of the Atlantic, of the importance of developing and improving the United States-European relationship in a number of fields. If President Nixon comes to Europe this year, I believe that he should meet both the NATO Alliance and the Community. The Nine have yet to decide how it should best be organised, but such a meeting would help to symbolise the progress made in European integration since the President last visited in 1969. However useful such a visit would be, it would be no substitute for hard work on issues which are currently important in relations between Europe and the United States.
  These will have to be debated in the existing fora which conduct their business in different time scales—the Committee of Twenty and the International Monetary Fund for money; the GATT for trade, and NATO for security.
  Good progress has been made in the trade field. In the early hours of Tuesday the Council of Ministers, meeting in Luxembourg, was able to reach agreement on a comprehensive paper setting out the Community's overall approach to the forthcoming multilateral trade negotiations. This fulfils the "Summit" commitment to reach agreement within the Community on an overall approach to the negotiations by 1st July; and when the paper is printed, as it surely will be, it will be seen to provide a sensible and practical framework which should enable the trade talks to start as planned in Tokyo in September.
  Two conditions were necessary before a calm and sober look at the possibility of trade talks was possible. The first was that the rather shrill rhetoric in the United States about their problems with Europe should give way to a calm examination of the facts. In fact, the United States' balance of payments problem derives from Japan and Canada and only very marginally from Europe. According to American statistics, the amount of American trade deficit attributable to the Community in 1972 was 8·8 per cent.
  The second condition was that the Community should avoid doctrinaire

  1549
  positions and clearly affirm its fundamental interest in the further liberalisation of world trade. I am glad that the approach now adopted by the Council of Ministers reflects this thinking.
  The climate for a sober and confident approach is now much better. Last time there was quite a success by the Six in the Kennedy Round. There is no reason why the Nine should not match that performance.
  But the Community is not concerned merely with its relations with its industrialised partners. In July negotiations will begin for the next Convention of Association which will replace the present Yaoundé Convention.
  I think that everyone now fully realises that what the Community is aiming at is a co-operative relationship of benefit to Europe and to the African countries which has nothing to do with neocolonialism. The 20 developing Commonwealth countries covered by Protocol 22 will have the opportunity to participate in these negotiations alongside the existing associate. We very much hope that they will take this chance. We had the chance the other day to talk to General Gowon about the important part that Nigeria, for example, could play.
  Although the details of the mandate for these negotiations have not yet been decided by the Community, it is certain that the developing countries concerned will be offered tariff-free access to the Community market for the bulk of their produce and access to the European Development Fund.
  Though it is for the countries concerned to decide for themselves on the nature of the relationship and the options they choose for association with the European Economic Community, we hope that they will not forgo the advantages in aid and trade which association will bring. We greatly look forward to seeing them at the opening conference in Brussels on 25th and 26th July, attendance at which will in no way commit them to accepting the terms which may eventually be worked out and offered.
  Mr. Douglas Jay: Is it true that we have accepted that the common agricultural policy shall not be negotiable in these negotiations?
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I had better leave the whole document, as it was decided early on Tuesday morning, to be studied by the right hon. Gentleman. The agricultural policy is seen by the whole Community to be basic to the Community's existence. That does not mean that there cannot be some changes of some kind in it—[Interruption]—it will cover all aspects, including sugar. We hope that the conference with the developing countries on 25th and 26th July will be successful in paving the way for substantial benefits to them.
  I believe that in all these matters which affect so many people our objectives and our work towards them in the Community are on the right lines.
  I do not intend today to dwell any longer on the fact that we are now a member of the European Community. It is a fact and we must look to the future. I will say just this. Whatever the arguments may be—the House has had ample opportunity to debate these—of one thing there can be no doubt. By being in the Community we have an influence which we could not possibly exert to the same degree outside.
  Mr. Tam Dalyell: Does the Secretary of State recognise that some of us are sad that this influence does not extend to influencing France in her nuclear test programme? May I ask the right hon. Gentleman quietly and unvituperatively in this foreign affairs debate to reflect on why he and the Prime Minister have absolutely failed to influence the French Government?
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: The hon. Gentleman might well address that question to many other people. We have represented to France that we do not think that there should be any more tests in the atmosphere. Therefore, our position is that we do not think that these tests should be carried out, but the French are capable of making their decisions for themselves. They will no doubt decide in the light of all the approaches which have been made to them whether to go ahead.
  Therefore, as I look at the broad sweep of policy in relation to the emergence of China, in relation to the security conference to be held with the Soviet Union and

  1551
  the Warsaw Pact, in relation to the formation of the Community and its progress, I think that we can report progress.
  As always in the conduct of foreign affairs there are some areas that justify optimism. There are other areas still faced with stubborn problems but where it should be possible to see a way through. The Indian subcontinent is certainly one where rigid positions must give way to neighbourliness. The price of separation and non-co-operation is too high on that continent. There are signs that this is recognised by all three countries—India, Bangladesh and Pakistan.
  But there are other areas where we seem to be stuck as regards reconciliation and where the future is depressing. The Middle East is the most outstanding. Two profoundly emotional human needs are there in conflict—security and sovereignty. It was these needs which were taken into account in Resolution 242, which has been accepted by both Israel and Egypt. Implementation of this resolution, with all its ambiguity, remains the best hope for peace.
  In so far as we can help—unfortunately, the wish is not necessarily the father to the deed—we will do so. But I cannot report to the House that I am optimistic. Everyone for years past has been looking for an answer in terms of reconciliation. None has found it. Sooner or later negotiations must take place. We will use all our influence wherever we can to bring that about.
  I said at the beginning of my speech that I would include a section on Rhodesia.
  Mr. Clinton Davis: Before the Secretary of State turns to the question of Rhodesia, will he enlarge a little on the current policy of the Government with regard to Resolution 242? Does he say that his interpretation of that resolution is consistent with the previous Government's interpretation; or does he support an amendment to it?
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I think that our interpretation is exactly the same. [Interruption.] I hope that it is. I do not think that we want to amend Resolution 242, because I do not think that we should get any consent in the United Nations to another resolution. We had better stick to it as it is.
  1552
  I turn to the question of Rhodesia. Since the Pearce Commission reported last May, we have been endeavouring to maintain contact as best we can with all shades of opinion in Rhodesia, including the Rhodesian authorities. To this end there have been various contacts with officials and others. Rhodesian officials have been to London. There have been meetings with the ANC and with other people, European and African, from Rhodesia. We have, as I indicated to Parliament, maintained the status quo as creating the best climate for discussion between Rhodesians.
  I sent Sir Denis Greenhill to Salisbury from 22nd June to 25th June with my political secretary and an official of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. They had two meetings with Mr. Smith and a meeting with Bishop Muzorewa. They also saw a number of prominent Africans and Europeans. They took no new proposals to Salisbury, nor did they bring any back. They were not engaged in any new settlement negotiation.
  The purpose of the visit was to provide me with an assessment of the present position in Rhodesia. That was necessary because it is very difficult to obtain the first-hand knowledge we need if we are to make up our mind how to proceed. I shall study their report, and shall thereafter have to consider whether any further move would be appropriate.
  However, as I have told the House before, I do not think that the problems of Rhodesia can be solved from London at this stage. What is required is for Europeans and Africans in Rhodesia to try to seek solutions to their problems between themselves. After the short talk I have had with Sir Denis since he came back, I see no reason at present to vary that judgment.
  I think that the people of Rhodesia, both the ANC and Mr. Smith and his Government, now realise that a settlement is essential. The question is how they achieve it between themselves. It is better at present that we allow them to talk. If they felt later that we could help towards an honourable settlement, we should always be ready to consider that, but first there must be a greater measure of agreement than there is now between Europeans and Africans. Otherwise, no settlement would be stable.

  1553
  I hope, therefore, that I can speak for the House in appealing to the two sides in Rhodesia to try to come together in a spirit of mutual compromise—that is what is needed—to seek just solutions to their problems which take account of the practical realities of the situation in their country.
  Mr. Harold Wilson: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way and for the brief explanation he has given the House. Will he confirm that he still feels bound by the view that there can be no settlement which does not fully honour the five principles, the six principles, however defined? Will he repudiate reports—I am sure that the House would be glad to hear him do so—that the Government were disenchanted by the Pearce Report and would not wish to repeat the experiment of the Pearce Report? Will he confirm that he is bound by the proposals for what we called a Royal Commission, which he followed last year? I hope that he can confirm, and the House will be delighted if he can, reports we have read today that his emissaries made clear to Mr. Smith that auy future negotiations from now on must include representative Africans no less than European participants.
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: We have always—and I say it again—stuck to the five principles. If it comes to a test of opinion in the future, we shall have to decide what the test is, but it must be consistent with the principles we have always followed. We shall not obtain an agreement which sticks unless responsible Africans join Mr. Smith in representing it to the British Government as a basis for Rhodesia's independence. I hope that they will be able to do that. I hope that they will be able to come together. As I said just now, I think there are signs that at last they are begining to realise how essential a settlement is for Europeans and Africans in Rhodesia.
  In those circumstances, although I should like to return in July, before we rise, and perhaps give an account of my latest thinking on the matter, I believe the best chance, the best climate, for the settlement is created by maintaining the status quo.
  Mr. Wilson: I am not quite sure what the right hon. Gentleman meant by his second answer on the Pearce Commission. Can he go further? There were reports today, which appeared well informed, that his emissaries from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office are taking the view that from now on any meaningful negotiations, not fact-finding, emissary tours such as that which we have just had, must include responsible African leaders of opinion as well as Europeans. Are those stories true?
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: The stories are, I think, jumping one or two moves ahead. I think that first responsible Africans must talk to Mr. Smith, and they must come to an agreement. I have said that if we can help later we shall do so, with both Europeans and Africans representing a proposal to us. That seems to me the right way to proceed.
  Mr. Jeremy Thorpe: Will the right hon. Gentleman clear up one point? Did Sir Denis Greenhill come back as planned or was he recalled prematurely? Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that, whilst it is wholly admirable for Mr. Smith to talk with the majority of the population who actually live in Rhodesia, it is rather difficult if so many of them are in prison?
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: Sir Denis came back as planned. The reason why I did not announce his going before he went is that I think that normally one would not do so, and I have a preference in a difficult situation for quiet diplomacy.
  Mr. Andrew Faulds: Has the right hon. Gentleman made representations to the illegal régime, either in the latest talks or in any earlier talks, that each individual member of that régime will be held responsible, when the time comes, for the illegal execution of the freedom fighters engaged in the liberation of Zimbabwe?
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: We have made representations to the Rhodesian Government about their attitude towards people who are imprisoned without trial.
  Mr. Faulds: What about the executions?
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I am sure that the whole House, and both Africans and Europeans, want to find a way in which we can honourably bring Rhodesia back to a legal relationship with this country. If the hon. Gentleman will concentrate on that, he will do very much better than he does now.
  There are many other aspects of foreign policy which will no doubt be touched upon in the debate, and my colleagues will seek to deal with them and to answer the points which right hon. and hon. Members may raise.
  There is a great interest in the House in aid and overseas development. A Select Committee is sitting to consider the subject. Britain must continue to play her part in the international effort to improve the condition of the least economically developed countries. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office is paying special attention to the problems of the remaining dependent territories, which often do not receive the public attention that they should deserve. We must help to create an environment in which trade and investment can grow to the advantage of all, and in which the strains and inequalities between nations can be reduced. In the Commonwealth context trade is better than aid, but aid still has a part to play. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Development hopes to say more on aid matters later today.
  On the topics in the main stream of foreign policy with which I have attempted to deal, I would sum up my speech in this way, It has been about talk between nations. Talk is emphatically better than war, and it is better still when the inspiration of that talk is peace which is real. Therefore, we must prove that the Helsinki talks or whatever other international negotiations we conduct with the Russians and the Warsaw Pact are substantial.
  Perhaps our main task is to attempt to create a new relationship between the West and the Soviet Union without sacrificing security. It is not enough to be satisfied with a relationship which would mean a freezing of the status quo in Europe, allowing encroachments elsewhere. Our relationship must be based on a real desire to live together in peace, and a mutual interest in doing so.
  1556
  Equally important is the nourishing of a fruitful relationship between the new Western Europe and the United States. Divergence of policies between America and Europe would be a major disaster for the free world.
  Thirdly, we should add to our circle of friends. I hope that my noble Friend the Minister of State will speak later in the debate about our position and our policies, which I think are being successful, in the Middle East, the Gulf and the Sudan.
  I have been much impressed lately with the constructive tone of the conversations I have had with Kenyan Ministers and with General Gowon.
  The Commonwealth Prime Ministers' Conference at the beginning of August will have the opportunity to review the wide sweep of change of which I have been speaking. I hope that the Prime Ministers will add their voice decisively to what I am convinced must be the theme of 1973 and the years ahead—reconciliation. If we can concentrate on that, there is at long last a portent—althought it is only so far the "size of a man's hand"—of a theme which is worthy of man.
  4.41 p.m.
  Mr. Goronwy Roberts: We shall wish to study carefully the content and import of the statement on Rhodesia which the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs has made. We are grateful to him that at such short notice he was able to say so much today.
  As this is a two-day debate, there will be opportunity for my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan), who is today unavoidably absent, to give our more considered views tomorrow on the implications of the statement which we have just heard. Because of the difficulties about printing the OFFICIAL REPORT, and the serious difficulties caused to hon. Members, I wonder whether, exceptionally, the right hon. Gentleman might manage to make available to hon. Members duplicated copies of his speech, or at least that part of it dealing with Rhodesia, today or by tomorrow morning?
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I have already made arrangements to do so. I shall try to make more copies available.
  Mr. Roberts: I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his prescience. We are most grateful for the concessions which he has already made. In the meantime, there are some matters which should be raised at once regarding the new development in the Rhodesian situation. If I overlap to some extent with my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, I am sure that the House will bear with me. These matters need to be reiterated.
  First, we take it that the mission was trying to assess present attitudes in Rhodesia and took with it no new proposal or proposals departing from those of the Pearce Commission. Secondly, may we take it that the essential condition of acceptability to the people of Rhodesia as a whole was in no way qualified by the mission in the course of assessing the attitudes which now exist in that country? Third, and this is extremely important, may we understand that the mission had unimpeded access to black as well as white leaders of the Rhodesian people and not only leaders of the African National Council, including its chairman, Bishop Muzorewa, but those who are at present incarcerated and who represent an important facet or element of African opinion in Rhodesia and throughout the continent?
  I shall now leave the Rhodesian question, anticipating that my right hon. Friend, the Member for Cardiff, South-East will tomorrow be dealing with it in greater depth.
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I said that if we came again to a test of opinion, we should have to make up our mind what form that test should take.
  Mr. Roberts: I was not dealing with the form of the test, but I hope that the form of the test will be as thorough and as credible in its final result as that undertaken by the Pearce Commission. I take the point that it may well be necessary to consider the form nearer to the day, if that day comes.
  I shall now deal with the general debate. While it is inevitable that Rhodesia will figure prominently in speeches by Government and Opposition Members, the debate will range over a wide range of topics. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs has treated us to a comprehen-
  1558
  sive tour of the whole scene. It might be helpful if I indicate how those of us who will speak from the Opposition Front Bench will aim to apportion broadly between the two days the various subjects which we think should be discussed. It can be only a broad apportionment and inevitably there will be a certain amount of overlap, though I hope no undue repetition.
  Today we shall deal mainly with a group of subjects which can be described as being of immediate urgency. While all foreign affairs are urgent, some are somewhat more urgent than others. There are uppermost in the minds of many hon. Members, and in the minds of people throughout the country, certain questions which can fairly be described as of imminent urgency—for example, the famine crisis in West Africa and India, our relations with Greece and Portugal and the implications of Portuguese policy on the whole of the African Continent, and the French nuclear test in the Pacific. Later today, my right hon. Friend the Member for Lanark (Mrs. Hart) will deal with overseas aid.
  Tomorrow my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East will deal with the issues on which policy is in the process of continual formation, for example, European security and cooperation, force reduction, the law of the sea, the Middle East and Rhodesia. Although the two latter subjects could fairly be described as always being in a state of urgency, it can be said that there, too, policy is in the process of formation. I shall make some reference in my speech to the Middle East and Rhodesia.
  The matters of immediate urgency to which I come at once are the famine crises in West Africa and India. The situation in West Africa is clearly one of mounting tragedy. Six countries are involved in the consequences of one of the most prolonged and disastrous droughts in history. Mauretania, Niger, Mali and Chad are in the grip of a terrible famine which is spreading into Senegal and the Upper Volta.
  The immediate need is to move supplies to the afflicted villages. Time is limited. That is the urgency of the situation. Soon the rains may make the roads impassable. It is a grim paradox that the lack of rain has created a crisis

  1559
  of survival for 6 million people and that the onset of the rains may make their rescue difficult if not impossible.
  There is deep concern in the House and in the country about the Government's slowness of reaction to this terrible tragedy. We seek a detailed statement about what the Government have done and are doing to help these starving millions. France and Belgium are already on the spot with aircraft to fly in food, fodder and medicine. Great Britain possesses suitable air transport of the Hercules type. We wish to know how many are being committed to the rescue operation in West Africa.
  There is a European aspect to the matter. The countries concerned have special trade relations with the EEC. In fact, the EEC benefits as much as or more than these countries from that relationship. Great Britain is a member of the Community. How strongly if at all have the Government pressed the countries of the EEC to act in these stricken areas? Europe has a debt and a duty in this area possibly above all other areas.
  There is also an international aspect because, harrowing as the immediate crisis is, we must look beyond it. This is a vast area not only of immediate tragedy but of possible future catastrophe. The very life space of 6 million people is in danger of being taken over by the desert. That is partly because of over-grazing and over-herding and because of a series of droughts which apparently fit into no known cycle and which will probably recur. It is, like the Indian crisis, a problem of international dimensions. To deal with it only an international commitment of conscience and resources will be adequate.
  What progress has been made in establishing under the United Nations an international organisation to deal not only with the short-term emergencies where-ever they occur, but with the longer-term conditions which erupt into emergencies at increasingly frequent intervals, particularly in certain parts of the world?
  There has long been general agreement among nations on the need for an international organisation for this purpose, and recently there have been some small signs that practical beginnings are being made. It surely should be a major objective of British policy and of Western European
  1560
  policy through the United Nations to speed up this process. I believe that no country has more to offer in expertise and leadership in this direction than ours. What is lacking is not compassion but political will and energy to press forward in a practical way.
  I join the right hon. Gentleman in saying that the most stylishly contrived declarations of aspiration mean nothing unless there is a political will and energy to implement them. I hope there will be more energy and more drive in the British support for the proposal in the United Nations and among our friends and allies so that this essential international organisation is speedily established.
  The situation in India is in many ways similar to that in West Africa. I have some sympathy with the Indian Government, which has expressed certain resentment because reports have appeared extolling voluntary contributions to alleviate the distress in the provinces while somewhat ignoring the tremendous efforts made by the Indian Government. These reports have been corrected and I am sure that we all wish it to go from this House to the Indian Government and all the people of the sub-continent that we greatly admire what the statutory bodies, the Governments, in that part of the world have been doing, so that no unnecessary dichotomy of efforts and of spirit arises between the authorities and the voluntary organisations which are so vital in what they can contribute in that part of the world.
  I have some sympathy also with what the Minister for Overseas Development said at Question Time recently. He told us that he was very willing to help India, but was waiting to be asked. I understand what he meant, but there are times when it is proper and necessary to ask to be asked. I think that this is one of them. I am sure that the Indian Government would respond to a little friendly prompting, a little assurance that there is a tremendous fund of good will in this country among Government, Opposition and people generally towards them, especially in the immense difficulty which faces them.
  There are immediate urgencies of a rather different kind in our relations with one or two European countries. I refer first to Greece. The Government have been somewhat slow in reacting to crises

  1561
  of great poignancy and magnitude in certain parts of the world, but in regard to Greece they have acted with indecent alacrity in recognising a Fascist republic in preference to a monarchical democracy. They could have stayed their hand and waited a little longer. At least they could have delayed the act of recognition which helps the Fascist dictatorship to consolidate itself.
  The right hon. Gentleman twitted the Opposition with having tolerated the Greek dictatorship within the community of NATO, but surely in the last two or three years the pace of repressive events in Greece has somewhat changed the situation, and there is a strong argument today for definitive talking and even action towards the Greeks in relation to their presence in NATO.
  After all, is it not the purpose of NATO to defend democracy? How does the Greek dictatorship go about that? By a system of arbitrary arrests, of detention for indefinite periods without charges being laid, and by terrorism and torture. Ministers well know that on both sides of the House hon. Members are revolted by the persecution of distinguished Greeks who are guilty of nothing more than the normal expression of moderate liberal opinion. The case of Dr. Pesmazoglou is by no means the only one but it is a good example of how this policy is being followed in Greece. He is a distinguished international economist of moderate views who is now languishing—we do not know for certain in what conditions—in a Greek gaol.
  This kind of thing is intolerable, it is increasing and is getting worse. While Greece geographically may well be part of the system of defence of Europe, to be effectively so it must shed these practices and approximate considerably more closely to a form of government which accords with the essential purpose of NATO, namely, the preservation and practice of democracy.
  The Under-Secretary of State has told me that it is not possible to intervene in the affairs of a sovereign Power. Apparently in the EEC sovereignty is increasingly an outworn shibboleth. In relation to Greece or Portugal, however, it is a sacred principle. Yet is it not the case that the Federal Republic of Germany intervened with the Greek
  1562
  Government on behalf of at least one distinguished non-German citizen, and did so effectively? No one then raised the question of interfering with the sovereign power and rights of Greece. Could we not be a little more forthcoming and definite in our representations to what we are told is a friend and ally of ours, especially when the West German Government have been able to do so?
  Mr. W. R. Rees-Davies: I wish that we could have a little more of a generally tolerant attitude. If the Opposition would recognise that the colonels have done a great deal for many people in Greece and that there is strong popular support for them in many respects and would weigh that factor against the complaints which the right hon. Gentleman is right to level about the unfortunate treatment of certain individuals, it would be much easier to deal with the Greek Government and the Greek people. It would be much easier to point out that they are making some serious errors in their handling of individuals. Success lies along those lines, recognising that the Greek Government have done a great deal of good, rather than constant attacks upon their approach to democracy.
  Mr. Roberts: Surely it is not necessary to condone Fascist oppression in order to make clear to a country which is titularly a friend and ally that we expect from it basic regard for human liberties as enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, to which the present Greek Government, as well as their predecessors, have adhered.
  If the hon. Member for Isle of Thanet (Mr. Rees-Davies) wants us to approve of Fascism before we argue for human rights, the answer is "No".
  I mentioned Portugal. Portugal alone among the European Governments is waging a war of colonial oppression in Africa. The whole of black Africa views this as a war upon it. The Foreign Secretary has toiled for a settlement which would be acceptable to all races. No other settlement would be possible or durable. His task is immensely difficult and I think we all admire his persistence and optimism, despite what he said today. I am sure that he feels that there is a green hill not so far away and we hope that he will persist in seeking access to it.

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  We know that it is possible. My right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition came within an ace of succeeding some years ago. Are the Government making the task easier by going out of their way to applaud and indeed fete the Portuguese dictatorship? Is this the way to convince either the Smith régime or the African people of his determination to achieve a just and non-colonialist settlement? Surely while this attitude towards the Portuguese Government—which in Africa is held to be the major protagonist of an outdated colonialism—continues, whatever he says to the Smith régime and the ANC will carry that much less credibility.
  Mr. Patrick Wall: The right hon. Gentleman knows my respect for his moderation, but is he being fair to Portugal? In Mozambique, for instance, there has just been a general election which elected a majority of Africans in the local parliament. Two-thirds of the army is African. Does he not realise that the Portuguese have the support of the vast majority of people in Mozambique?
  Mr. Roberts: The hon. Member falls into the familiar trap of prescribing for other people and countries the way in which they should behave.
  Mr. Wall: So does the right hon. Gentleman.
  Mr. Roberts: This is not a prescription. This is a basic need for regard for human rights. It is a declaration to which all civilised countries are signatories. There is no future in the Portuguese policy. It can go on for a few more years, escalating in terms of bloodshed. Every other European country has realised that and has abandoned such a rôle. This country abandoned its colonial rôle honourably and effectively. I would be prepared to defend very strongly not only the rôle of Britain in Africa but the manner and spirit in which it divested itself of that rôle and continued to attempt to assist the emerging countries which it had helped to create.
  This is not the position with Portugal. Surely nowadays, when even the Belgians have gone, this is the last vestige of an anachronistic colonialism. We in this country and the European countries generally should speak firmly and effec-
  1564
  tively to the Portuguese, telling them that this cannot go on, that if it does, there is a danger of embroiling the entire continent in serious tragedy and disaster.
  Mr. Frank Allaun: The hon. Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall) referred to these elections as a proof that there was support for Portuguese policy in Africa. Surely these elections were "phoney", because if the majority of Africans in the Portuguese colonies really supported the Portuguese Government, would it be necessary to keep 200,000 Portuguese troops permanently stationed there to keep order?
  Mr. Wall: It is because of the hon. Member's Communist friends.
  Mr. Roberts: If I may intervene in this debate for a moment; my hon. Friend has answered the question. The presence of 200,000 troops to maintain this system is in itself an indictment of it. It cannot last. If it does, it will increasingly imperil the peace of the entire continent.
  I wish to raise as a matter of urgency the subject of the French nuclear tests in the Pacific. The latest reports indicate that these tests are imminent. There is a report today that some of the islands are now being evacuated. That comes on the same day as a report that the Chinese have detonated their fifteenth nuclear device. This is a threat not only to the Pacific, but to the whole of humanity.
  The Governments of Australia and New Zealand, our friends and partners in the Commonwealth as well as Governments in Africa, are desperately trying to persuade the French Government to desist from this awesome action. What support have they received from our Government? The impression which Ministers have given when answering questions on this vital topic is that they have been going through the motions and that is about all. How seriously have they impressed upon the French Government that they should hold their hand with these proposed tests?
  I hope that there will go from the House today—there certainly will from the Labour side—a message to the French Government that they should in the interests of humanity abandon these tests. If they do that, it will redound more than anything to the true glory of France.

  1565
  The right hon. Gentleman is in a strong position to argue in this way. He negotiated the test ban treaty 10 years ago, just as it was my right hon. Friend the Member for Fulham (Mr. Michael Stewart) who produced the British initiative and persistence which led to the anti-proliferation agreement. Moreover the right hon. Gentleman has shown, with regard to the Icelandic dispute, that this country is prepared to accept the ruling of the International Court. He knows how strongly Labour Members have supported that policy and assisted in making it known.
  Is it not even more important, having regard to the gravity of the threatened tests in the Pacific, that the French Government should similarly defer to the International Court decision? Surely, armed with this record and background, the right hon. Gentleman could carry credibility with the French Government if he were to put to them with the necessary strength and persistence not only the wish of this country but, I believe, the wish of every other country that they should abandon these tests.
  Mr. Dalyell: Does my right hon. Friend recall that during the course of the Foreign Secretary's speech I put to him, as courteously as I could, that it was odd that the Foreign Secretary should turn round and say, "After all, this question ought to be addressed to someone else"? To whom else can it be addressed?
  Mr. Roberts: The Foreign Secretary will wish to answer that in his own way either now or later. We are concerned with what we want him and the Government to do in the name of Britain, namely, to put to the French Government, our friend and ally, our conviction, which we believe to be that of the civilised world, that these tests should not proceed.
  The right hon. Gentleman—and I pay him a deserved compliment by putting it in this way—having been honourably concerned with advancing the cause of nuclear control, and having deferred to the International Court decision in one particular which was, in a sense, detrimental to our material interests regarding the Icelandic dispute, is in a strong position to say to the French, "This is
  1566
  how we, your geographically closest friend and ally, feel, and we believe that we speak for our other friends in Europe and for all the countries of the world". Will the right hon. Gentleman do that?
  Mr. Laurance Reed: Would not the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is inconsistent for Britain to be prepared to use force to uphold a judgment of the International Court in one case and not to lift a finger to uphold a judgment of the International Court in another case? If the implication is that those who are parties to a judgment before that court are to be responsible for enforcing its judgments, will not that produce international anarchy, which the International Court is designed to prevent?
  Mr. Roberts: That is a little wide of the question to which I was addressing myself. We all know that the International Court has no sanction. It has tremendous influence if those who appear before it and who are notionally subject to it are prepared to accept its decisons. Britain—and I freely give the right hon. Gentleman the credit due for this—with our support has deferred to a decision of the International Court in respect of a dispute in which Britain was involved—
  Mr. Reed rose—
  Mr. Roberts: May I answer the hon. Gentleman's question?
  One could commend that attitude to an International Court decision to another country, namely, France, the dispute in her case being with another country and of a different character. However, the principle remains.
  Mr. Reed: I support the right hon. Gentleman's view. I am saying that it is inconsistent for Britain to enforce the judgment of the court in relation to Iceland and to remain silent about the decision of the court in relation to the tests in the Pacific. If the justification is that only those who are party to a dispute before the court are to be responsible for enforcing action, it can only mean international anarchy, which the court is designed to prevent.
  Mr. Roberts: I take the hon. Gentleman's point, but I shall not be drawn

  1567
  into an argument about whether we are enforcing that decision. I do not think that the presence of our ships in the area is an enforcement of that decision. However, this is a very fine point.
  I agree that until the International Court is backed by a system of enforcement, which must in turn be agreed, it has less validity than we should wish it to have, but I do not agree that the present system, which is authority without enforcement, could lead to anarchy.
  I have time only briefly to refer to another area in which I am interested, the Middle East. There is a new initiative under Doctor Jarring. I was glad to hear the assurance of the Foreign Secretary, I think on the prompting of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, that any initiative, including the present initiative, will be based on the terms and objects of United Nations Resolution 242. I am sure that both sides of the House are right in believing that we should rest on that resolution. It is the only possible basis for an agreement which is just and durable between the two main sides in the dispute.
  What I am slightly concerned about is this. The Foreign Secretary rightly described what has been happening in Washington as a "detentive" development, which we warmly welcome and hope will lead to practical results. One of the emanations of what has been said in Washington is that the two super Powers will be looking at the Middle East with a view, as Mr. Brezhnev put it in his broadcast in the United States, to assisting a settlement in the Middle East. Meantime, we have the Jarring exercise once more. The Tunisian President has been engaged in certain talks. Then there are the results of the détente talks in Washington. It must surely be a major purpose of our foreign policy in the next few weeks to ensure that those three efforts to assist in the Middle East situation do not diverge but are, if possible, brought together.
  There are other aspects of the detentive development in Washington which others, apart from ourselves, will wish to ensure do not diverge from existing efforts to create understanding. We thoroughly agree with the Foreign Secretary about the way in which the Helsinki talks should develop, namely, that the work should be
  1568
  commissioned to practical committees with the duty of reporting back to the major body practical means of moving ahead in security and co-operation and of selecting priorities such as that of exchange—one could almost say exchange of persons and papers. We look forward cautiously to the creation of a more permanent body once the conference feels that it has fulfilled its function. I think that there is general agreement on those points.
  We are dissatisfied that in the areas of immediate urgency—the French nuclear tests, West Africa, India—the Government do not show a proper sense of urgency, a drive, a commitment to act with other countries in solving certain outstanding problems. We on this side of the House shall listen carefully to what is said in the debate, but we reserve the right at the end of the two days to show in the appropriate manner what we think of the Government's foreign policy.
  5.18 p.m.
  Mr. Hugh Fraser: It is my pleasant duty to report to the House that I was, fortunately and fortuitously, present in Tokyo when Mr. Speaker made an official visit. I wish to report to the House on the fine and powerful impression which he made on the Japanese Diet, the way in which he was welcomed by the Japanese people and Press, and the good which his visit did to Anglo-Japanese relations.
  I do not propose to dwell at length on the question of the Far East because I have expressed my views on the subject in an article which appeared in The Times this morning. I should like to range much more widely than the right hon. Member for Caernarvon (Mr. Goronwy Roberts) and discuss the question of the Government's attitude and policy towards world trade. I believe this to be the most pressing and important issue that will face the country over the coming months and years.
  My right honourable Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary gave a very optimistic view of the political changes which are in the process of taking place. He expressed great hopes for the future, and we all echo those hopes.

  1569
  I will not follow the speech of the right hon. Member for Caernarvon except to say that I support his view that we should help Francophone Africa through the EEC and also the Indian Government in famine relief. The issues mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman fall into tiny perspective compared with the dangers facing this country and the West on trade and monetary reform and in the negotiations which will begin this autumn in Tokyo.
  The Government must consider carefully where they stand. The Foreign Secretary said that because of our membership of the EEC we had a new burst of life and importance. I hope that we have. But it is notable that when Mr. Brezhnev comes to Europe he does not come here, when the American President wishes to see someone in Europe it is not our Prime Minister whom he sees in mid-Atlantic, when the Japanese Foreign Secretary comes to Europe he does not come here; but Mr. Pompidou is visited by all these gentlemen. We must, therefore, he careful how we regard our position of growing importance because of our membership of the EEC.
  Of course, there are some advantages in our membership, but it is vitally important to remember when the House comes to discuss—I hope in full—the arrangements reached at dawn on Tuesday regarding the position paper to be discussed by Europe at GATT, that in the last five years there have been great changes. We have taken a long time to get into Europe and during this period Europe has ceased to be the great growth area of the world. The Far East, South America and the Middle East are now more important. We must maintain and build un our interests in Australia, Hong Kong, and Singapore—throughout the whole of what was once called the co-prosperity sphere inside America and the North.
  When the Government discuss these matters, first with the Prime Ministers in August, then with the World Bank in Nairobi and finally with GATT in Tokyo, they must consider carefully where precisely they stand. We have to ask ourselves searching questions. Does our membership of the EEC help us in our search for more raw materials, or in our relations with South Africa, North and
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  South America and the Far East? Is membership an assistance or a hindrance? This matter should be fully debated by the House when the EEC position papers on GATT come before us.
  We have interests that are parallel with those of Europe but not necessarily identical to them. The European bankers are talking today about what are called fixed but flexible exchange rates. That sounds a meaningless phrase but a good slogan. If the Foreign Secretary is to have any impact on world affairs he must recognise that the United Kingdom, on world issues, has an approach which is parallel to but distinct from that of Europe. If we play second fiddle to interests which are not necessarily totally aligned to our own, many of the troubles which face the world today could be inflicted on us.
  Much as I admire Sir Christopher Soames and warmly as I regard him as an able and tough negotiator, we must nevertheless have an assurance from the Foreign Office that British interests will be represented to GATT by a British national delegation. Otherwise, some of our interests will not be reflected. We have an interest in securing cheaper food and in our Australian, Canadian and Far Eastern connections which Europe does not necessarily share.
  Our interests are parallel to but distinct from those of Europe. I hope that my right hon. Friend will give an assurance that there will be a full and proper debate on the position paper produced by the EEC. The paper seems to contain only one basic point of major substance—that the European agricultural policy is not negotiable. I believe that the European agricultural policy must be made negotiable, and that is why it is essential for us fully to study the paper before it is taken to Tokyo. We must also have an assurance from the Government that there will be national representation of the British Government in Tokyo rather than a merging with the EEC delegation, however well it may be led.
  If we do not pursue a policy that is parallel to but distinct from that of the EEC we are in grave danger of losing not just national sovereignty but the advantage of the British people which should be paramount in the Government's mind. I hope that my right hon. Friend

  1571
  will walk with all the delicacy of Agag in these matters, making sure that the interests of this country are paramount in any negotiations and relying on the House of Commons rather than anyone in Brussels to judge where that paramountcy lies.
  5.28 p.m.
  Dr. David Owen: I do not intend to follow the right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Hugh Fraser) in the important element of foreign policy which he discussed. It is possible for him and me to have a somewhat different enthusiasm for the Common Market and still agree that the issue of our posture in GATT is of immense importance. It would be extremely foolish to enter into the GATT negotiations on an entirely Euro-centred trading and negotiating position. It would also be extremely foolish for the EEC countries to enter the GATT negotiations without fully recognising that the United States has legitimate anxieties and concerns about the common agricultural policy.
  If we were to enter the negotiations with an absolute embargo on any changes in the common agricultural policy we should be effectively saying that the GATT negotiations could not make the progress that is so essential for our trading patterns worldwide. To that extent I agree with some elements in the speech of the right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone, although I think it possible to have a European negotiating position which reflects some of these anxieties and I do not wish necessarily to push a single nation's viewpoint.
  The debate will range widely on many issues, and one could raise a number of anxieties, controversies and matters of concern. The main issue of foreign policy is the growing trend towards bilateralism among the super Powers. At present we are seeing a major breakthrough. The Soviet Union and the United States have developed a close and intimate negotiating posture on many items of foreign policy, and yet I believe I must draw the attention of the House to a matter of fundamental concern. I believe that bilateralism has its dangers. Bilateralism must be seen as the path towards a mulilateral approach. I fear that if we exclusively rely on bilateralism
  1572
  by means of which we funnel the world's problems into a dialogue only between the super Powers it will eventually let us down.
  I intend to speak primarily about the Middle East, and I do so mainly in the context of the Foreign Secretary's speech. He frankly admitted that this was an area in which practically no progress had been made, and he was rightly pessimistic. When we look at the Middle East at the moment, we might take the view that strict logic indicates that there is no immediate risk of a repeat of the 1967 war. That is the conclusion one comes to in looking at the relative force levels and in making other comparisons. But strict logic in terms of the Middle East has rarely been paralleled by events. Sadly, it must be said that prospects for a peace settlement remain minimal, and another war even in the next year is not something which any of us can lightly exclude. It is a sombre prospect.
  We need to be as realistic about the situation as possible. The rôle for super Power mediation, for outside intervention, is strictly limited. I personally feel that one must come to a conclusion that in the main this is part of a regional problem which will have to be resolved in a regional context. However, such a conclusion does not exclude the participation of outside Powers from taking a definite interest in the problems of this area.
  The problem of the Middle East is not strictly to be seen only in terms of the Arab-Israeli conflict. There are deep differences of approach in the Arab world—differences involving the Palestinians, the Jordanians and the Egyptians. On top of this, there is a tremendous scepticism about the rôle of any of the international organisations, and there is a particlar cynicism in Israel about the rôle of the United Nations. Reluctantly, one has to accept in part that some of Israel's criticisms are justifield, although I personally think Israel tends to exaggerate the consequences of some of the resolutions passed in the United Nations and perhaps feels too sensitive about them.
  However, with those rather pessimistic forecasts, I turn to one area in which we might make some progress. The crux of

  1573
  the immediate problem is to get negotiations going between the two countries, Israel and Egypt. I do not belittle the fact that there are many other problems, but in my view it is not the Jordan Valley, the Golan Heights, Jerusalem, Gaza or the Palestinian refugees which currently impede progress. It may be that those difficult elements in a settlement may prove to be the main stumbling blocks but at the moment the problem is the territorial dispute over the largely barren wasteland of Sinai. It is to Sinai that I would wish the House and, hopefully, the world community to look.
  It is the major problem in the whole context of Middle East security that there is no body which can bring together national expertise in a technical framework on security issues. There is no dialogue taking place on military strategy at a defence level; there is only diplomatic discussion inside the United Nations. If we look at the United Nations secretariat or at the facilities available to that secretariat, we see that there is no body of informed opinion capable of discussing such complex issues as the technicalities of the demilitarisation of Sinai.
  If the British, or the European super Power, have any contribution to make at the moment it is to clarify thinking about what demilitarisation of Sinai involves. The Egyptian formal position is contained in their reply to Jarring in 1971. The Egyptians would agree to:
  "the establishment of demilitarised zones astride the borders in equal distances."
  but this would be in the context of:
  "the full and scrupulous implementation of Security Council Resolution 242 of 1967 and of the withdrawal of the Israeli Armed Forces from all territories occupied since 5th June 1967."
  I must say to the Egyptians that reciprocity over demilitarisation of Sinai is impossible. The mere geography of Israel and its size compared with areas of Sinai and Egypt preclude reciprocity. It also must be stated as a simple matter of fact that unless and until the Egyptians are prepared to accept a measure of near total demilitarisation of Sinai there will be no basis for an agreed peace settlement with Israel.
  The Egyptians could be persuaded to adopt a total demilitarisation of Sinai. If they were to be so persuaded the prospects
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  for implementation of Resolution 242 would become very much stronger. If there were total demilitarisation, it would offer the prospect of satisfying some of the legitimate anxieties of the Israelis about their own security. We must realise the genuine need for Israel to have a substantial amount of warning time of any possible air attack from Egypt and the necessity for the Israelis to have an absolute safeguard against the mobilisation for a long period of time of hostile forces on their borders which inevitably means that they have to mobilise their predominantly civilian forces.
  I do not believe the Israelis can possibly accept a settlement where the Egyptians could again be in a position to mass tanks and ground forces along the old 1967 boundary and to wait there indefinitely. But there is a gain for the Egyptians by a demilitarisation of Sinai. The gain initially may be seen as purely one for Israel, but it works in reverse. What are the prospects of demilitarisation?
  Mr. Ivor Richard: My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton (Dr. David Owen) is making a most interesting speech. When he talks about demilitarisation of Sinai, does he envisage that it will be under Egyptian sovereignty, Israeli sovereignty or some kind of joint sovereignty?
  Dr. Owen: I shall come to that matter. Demilitarisation means no tanks, no troops, no airfields in the whole of Sinai. The sovereignty of Sinai must be predominantly returned to the Egyptians in line with Resolution 242. I do not need to go into the exact boundaries at this moment of time. When we talk about demilitarisation of Sinai we come face to face with the problem of Sharm el Sheikh. We have to accept some of the legitimate security anxieties felt by Israel. The Israelis are concerned not just about the triggering nature of the Straits of Tiran, but about the Bab el Mandeb Straits which enter the Red Sea. They are very concerned about the prospects of interference with shipping moving into the Red Sea such as occurred in 1971 when the passage of the "Coral Sea" was interfered with.
  How can we satisfy those anxieties? Here, I think, the need for action by other

  1575
  nations outside this region becomes paramount. There is a real need for a treaty backed by all the main maritime nations to clarify the status in international law of the Straits of Tiran and the Bab el Mandeb Straits and to ensure free passage through the Suez Canal if and when it is opened. In that sense some outside guarantees could be meaningful. But on the ground, for the policing of any demilitarisation of Sinai, the most successful form would probably be a joint policing arrangement between the Israelis and the Egyptians. I have some doubt about the preparedness of one side to accept a UN force, and it might be better for any policing arrangement initially to come from the two sides.
  When we look at the problem of observation and of policing arrangements, we have to make a major breakthrough. Why is it that the SALT have been able to reach agreement? Why has it been possible to overcome the old problem of on-the-ground surveillance and observation? The reason is that satellite surveillance technology has made such staggering improvements that both super Powers have been able to rely on satellite reconnaissance in this highly sensitive area of missile locations. How much more capable would satellite reconnaissance be of ensuring the policing of the demilitarisation of Sinai? Here again the super Powers have a contribution to make. But they must make available satellite reconnaissance photographs and observations in such a manner that both the Egyptians and the Israelis can feel confident in times of crisis that information will be free and readily available to them. In 1970 the Israelis wanted to have the information which was available in the United States about the Soviet SAM sites being built on the Canal zone. They were not able to get any clarification of the SAM site build-up on the Canal zone. Any agreement on observation involving super Power satellite reconnaissance facilities would have to be so arranged that very strict guarantees were attached to it.
  Dr. M. S. Miller: I hesitate to interrupt a very interesting speech. However, my hon. Friend has referred to SALT. Does he accept that, since those talks were a kind of negotiation between two sides, before it became possible to get the kind of
  1576
  surveillance which he envisages it would be necessary to have a dialogue between the two sides, which in this instance would be a dialogue between Egypt and Israel?
  Dr. Owen: This is the greatest problem. It is to get the two sides into a dialogue. It is well known that the Egyptians are fearful of getting into a direct dialogue lest it be read as a recognition of the State of Israel at the start of the negotiations. In my view their fears are unjustifield. They ought to look at the agreement negotiated between the West Germans and the East Germans. That was done initially on the basis that the negotiations did not involve recognition. It was expressly written into the negotiations.
  It seems to me that in any peace settlement pure verbal recognition is of no importance. What is needed is an eventual recognition involving a big psychological change in the attitudes of the two sides to each other's status. I believe that they could negotiate directly without any question being raised of recognition of either country's position. I think that the Egyptians could do that, and that the Israelis would be very wise to help the Egyptians by saying that direct negotiations did not involve recognition and that recognition could come only with an agreement and a final solution.
  This is the problem, and it is difficult to know how to bring the two sides together. I hope that Willy Brandt's visit to Israel has shown the Israelis that any insistence on recognition in the early part of negotiations is valueless. Recognition is so fundamental to Israel that it will require much more than any paper formula.
  I do not deny that there are many other serious problems. I leave out all reference to the complex problem of Gaza. It may be that in the negotiations there could be some lease arrangement arrived at for Sharm el Sheikh which would be acceptable to the Egyptians, though I recognise why they believe that to be unacceptable at the moment. Certainly the Israelis have to accept that the sovereignty of Sharm el Sheikh must be vested in Egypt. I find it hard to see a lease arrangement being susceptible to negotiation, however.
  I return to the fundamental formula, which is that a total demilitarisation of

  1577
  Sinai is the only way to ensure secure boundaries. The importance of secure boundaries in this area lies in the fact that it is Egypt which is the most sophisticated military Power which the Israelis see as a potential threat to their boundaries.
  I have not discussed the Golan Heights. Anyone who believes that the Israelis will give up every single part of the Golan Heights is living in an unreal world. Part of the Golan Heights could be given up. But it must be recognised that even within Resolution 242 there will have to be some modification of boundaries. Equally, anyone who believes a minority Israeli notion which seems to think that it will be possible to draw a line across the Sinai from El Arish to Sharm el Sheikh and retain that sizeable triangle of Egyptian territory is also living in a land of unreality. There is an urgent need for progress over the West Bank.
  Whatever one's feelings may be about the facts of a possible future energy crisis, it is clear that this area needs some movement towards a peace settlement. As for the absence of dialogue and the total lack of discussion between the parties, I see an opportunity for the world community. The greatest contribution which the world could make would be actively to speak about the concept of demilitarisation, to discuss it, to probe its technical problems, to try to elaborate the difficulties associated with it, to look at possible modifications and, if possible, to bring Egypt's strategic and military thinkers together in a dialogue on demilitarisation with those of the Israelis. If that could be done the gap between the two countries which at the moment is close to being unbridgeable might be bridged.
  The world has to face these real security problems. There is a danger of talking too much about the need for a political will. That may come. But first there has to be a better understanding of the security issues which lie behind the fears and apprehensions of both sides. In my view a political settlement will not be achieved unless the legitimacy of many of the current security issues gains far wider acceptance, not merely in the Arab world but also in the United Nations. The UN
  1578
  has a special responsibility at the moment, as the debate goes on and as the Secretary-General has promised to visit the Middle East, to come up with proposals which are far more than just diplomatic language discussions. They must be detailed, technical proposals based on modern military strategy. Only with that sort of working dialogue will it be possible to superimpose a political settlement which has any chance of success.
  The British Government can make a contribution by making efforts to this end. If the United Nations put more effort into this and less into declaratory resolutions about the dispute it would make a greater and more profound contribution to peace and security.
  I have raised this issue purely on the Middle East, but I think it has wider ramifications. There is a need worldwide for greater recognition of the technical aspects of security and freer discussion of it.
  5.50 p.m.
  Mr. Airey Neave: Whatever view one takes about the right solution to the problems in the Middle East, I think that the House generally will agree that the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton (Dr. David Owen) has given us an interesting analysis of what is happening at present.
  I am sure that my right hon. Friend would have been concerned to hear what the hon. Member said about demilitarisation of Sinai. I found it most constructive. I am not in a position to follow the hon. Gentleman, except about his fear regarding the dangers of a kind of bilateral arrangement between two super Powers. I have this fear, too. I believe that this country and Europe have a great opportunity to exert the kind of influence leading to reconciliation to which my right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary referred. My right hon. Friend is to be congratulated on the improved standing of British foreign policy, but he was right to be cautious in saying that the reconciliation for which we all hope is no bigger than a man's hand at this time.
  I should like to refer particularly to the need to have regard for human rights in all our policies and to begin with the

  1579
  question of refugees. I mention this matter shortly, because I hope that some time in the autumn there will be an opportunity for a debate on refugee policy and that some hon. Member will choose it as the subject for a Private Member's motion. I mention this matter because Prince Sadruddin Aga Khan, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, should receive the support of the House and the Government to a greater extent than at the moment. I am a member of the Executive Committee of the United Nations High Commission for Refugees, and that is another reason why I mention this matter.
  We have often debated major emergencies involving refugees and made large financial contributions to situations such as Bangladesh. It is perhaps a contrast, a lack of balance, that I refer in passing to the fact that in the day-to-day administration by the United Nations of refugee problems all over the world we contribute relatively little. I thank the Government for the increase in contribution to the United Nations High Commission for Refugees from £180,000 to £210,000, but that is a very small figure compared with the large amounts that we have contributed when there has been a great emergency. I hope that there will also be a debate in another place on this question.
  My right hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Development has done his best to help the United Nations over the Sudan. I hope that the Government will continue to give all possible aid to the Sudan Government with their vast refugee problem in Southern Sudan. So far the Government have given £500,000—half of that before Christmas—and £50,000 to the voluntary agencies which are working in Southern Sudan.
  Like many hon. Members, I visited Southern Sudan recently and saw for myself many of the terrific problems which are occurring there. About 700,000 or more refugees are coming in from various neighbouring African States.
  In this connection it is necessary that the Government should find some money to help the United Nations and the Sudan Government with the problem of the bridge over the Nile at Juba. This affects the whole of the transport problem of Southern Sudan which at the moment is
  1580
  conducted in a most primitive fashion. There is great difficulty in getting hospital and education supplies into this area for the large number of returning refugees. Denmark and Holland are contributing, but the United Nations must find a considerable sum, as my right hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Development is fully aware.
  None the less, I welcome the Government's policy towards the Sudan generally and the award of £15·7 million in technical assistance at the time of President Nemery's visit to this country. I congratulate the Government on what they have done in the last year for the Sudan.
  Whatever our relations with other countries may be, we must always make a stand for human rights and principles. These must never be sacrificed. I am an officer of the International Committee for the Protection of Human Rights in the Soviet Union. Whatever our policy may be towards the Soviet Union or the strategic importance of Greece, we should still be in a position to make a stand for individuals and never turn a blind eye to the fate of political prisoners. I was an official at the Nuremberg Tribunal. We condemned many practices, which are being continued today, at the Nuremberg trials of the major Nazi war criminals.
  This brings me to the Brezhnev doctrine. What does he mean by the "end of the cold war"? This week's Economist provides some quotations from Pravda. I welcome a period of reconciliation, but we should be realistic, as hon. Members on both sides certainly have been. Pravda says,
  "Only naive people can expect that recognition of the principles of co-existence by capitalists can weaken the main contradiction of our times between capitalism and socialism or that the ideological struggle will be weakened."
  It also states,
  "Co-existence does not mean a discontinuation of the class struggle but only the renunciation of military methods."
  We must realise, as I think we do, that the Soviet Union wants to see its system prevail without a shot being fired. Russia has frankly stated that on numerous occasions. We know that the Soviet Union needs foreign capital.
  Mr. Hugh Fraser: And food.
  Mr. Neave: And food. But what price will she be asked to pay in human terms?
  I mentioned that I am a member of the International Committee for the Defence of Human Rights in the Soviet Union. Are we going to exert any influence or pressure—in my view, we have greater influence today—against her blatantly anti-semitic policies? I hope that we are. How many Jewish people will be allowed to emigrate as a result of contacts that we are making with the Soviet Union and which Ministers of 34 countries will have an opportunity to make at the Helsinki Conference? I beg my right hon. Friend to take note that the Helsinki Conference will provide an excellent opportunity to make these representations. The Foreign Secretary told us that a committee would be set up to discuss human contacts between East and West. I hope that that will be a permanent committee.
  Will the treatment of dissidents be less brutal than it appears to be? We all have an interest in this matter. We must remember the 1 million people who are in forced labour camps and the 10,000 or more political prisoners. It is not a question of our interfering in the affairs of the Soviet Union, but of being able to influence and make a stand for human rights.
  I should like to refer to one case that I find difficult. Some 30 years ago I should never have believed that I would be making any form of plea for the release of a top Nazi. At that time I was in Germany, in Colditz, when I heard about Rudolf Hess. I next met him in his cell at Nuremberg.
  Some may think it surprising that I should make this plea, but I assure them that my views about the Nazis are as strong as theirs, for a variety of personal reasons. Hess is now living in Spandau Prison—my information comes from his family—in extremely cramped quarters. He is now 79. The doctors believe that he will live for another 10 years; that is to say, to 89. He is in good health for a man of his age, and if that medical opinion is right—and I hope that my right hon. Friend is taking note of what I am saying—at the date of his death he will have been detained for more than 40 years.
  One reason for raising his case is that it is rather exceptional, in that we are a
  1582
  party to his detention. He is detained on a four-Power basis, and the time will come when we can no longer bear this responsibility. We are part of the four-Power agreement. I hope that this case will be raised with the Russian Foreign Minister at the Helsinki Conference, and I am trying to get support in America and France to persuade their Foreign Ministers that they must now take a firm line about this.
  The Russian prison officers at Spandau demand that the prison regulations of 1947 are rigorously obeyed. Spandau, being an allied prison, is a four-Power institution, and any decision requires the agreement of all four Powers. The four Powers provide the warders and guards who man the main gate and the towers at Spandau 24 hours a day. It is a considerable guard. This is a prison with 600 empty cells, and one man is there. As a result of their restrictions on his activities, the Russians allow Hess half an hour's walk a day in the garden. That is what his family tell me. We all have our views about the Nazis, but if something does not happen within the next 10 years this will be one of the biggest scandals of our time.
  My right hon. Friends and the previous Government have made strong representations to the Russians for a long time—I know, because I was personally involved—and the Federal Republic has also taken a considerable interest in this case. Herr Willy Brandt raised this with Mr. Brezhnev only the other day, but Mr. Brezhnev refused to discuss it. The reason is that the Soviets have always said that Hess should be executed for his responsibility for the death of between 15 million and 20 million Russians. He was convicted at Nuremberg on a charge of conspiracy to wage aggressive war, but he was acquitted by the Russians of crimes against humanity and war crimes. I was present when the Russian judges said that. Admittedly, the Russian judges were instantly told to issue a dissenting judgment and they have never been heard of since, but the fact remains that Hess was not convicted upon the last two charges.
  Hess is being harshly treated. His family are not even allowed to shake his hand. They are not allowed any form of physical contact with him. Hess is

  1583
  79, and the three Allied commanders among the four Powers want to make a medical check but they are not allowed to because the Russians will not agree to his being taken into hospital for that purpose and, as I have said, Mr. Brezhnev refuses to discuss the matter.
  If Mr. Brezhnev is sincere in trying to stop the cold war—and I hope that he is —this is one of the matters on which he ought to listen. If the Russians do not agree to release this old man very soon, despite all that we have suffered in the past at the hands of the Nazis—and I know many people who have—the three Western Powers ought to release him. I know that there will be some Russian threats of what they will do about Berlin, and so on, but I believe that we have to take a stand on this matter very soon. The opportunity to raise it will arise at the Helsinki Conference, where part of the agenda is that there should be a day to consider the position of human beings and human rights. These matters are of serious moment, and the opportunities are great. I think that my right hon. Friend's policy may lead to reconciliation, but it may also lead to national revival.
  6.5 p.m.
  Mr. Eric Ogden: I propose to follow the speech of the hon. Member for Abingdon (Mr. Neave) in respect of only one matter and that is his reference to "The Prisoner of Spandau". I am sure almost everyone would agree that the Rudolf Hess of 1973 is a very different person from the Rudolf Hess of the 1940s.
  It is not a matter of forgiving or forgetting the crimes of the Nazis in which he played some part, but of asking whether we should keep a person of his age in these physical conditions. No matter what his crime had been, I do not think that anyone would do that in the United Kingdom, and there is a good deal of support and sympathy with the plea for his release that has been put forward from this House before. The plea comes from all quarters, and particularly from those who suffered most from Nazi oppression I am not one of those who suffered most, but I support his release on the grounds of ordinary human decency.
  The debate has already ranged extremely wide. One reference was made
  1584
  to our ability to control or to influence opinion in the European Economic Community. I do not think this debate has shown that our interest in the rest of the world is any less than it used to be now that we are members of the Community, but, rather, that our interest continues and, indeed, has been sharpened. We are still a world organisation—I shall not say a world Power—and our interests—economic, social, industrial and commercial—are world wide.
  Many hon. Members are waiting to take part in the debate and it may be that some are interested, as I am, in a particular part of the world—Southern Africa. I follow the Foreign Secretary's statement on Rhodesia by saying that any words going forth from this House, either today or tomorrow, on the subject of Rhodesia should spell out clearly that a settlement has to be reached in Rhodesia first before it has any hope of being approved by the British Government, the British Parliament or the British people. The first real hopes for the next step towards a settlement must be agreed in broad range or in narrow detail in Rhodesia. Unless there is agreement amongst the majority of Rhodesian people, any settlement has little chance of being supported or accepted by the Government, Parliament or the people of this country.
  I want to refer particularly to that part of Africa in which we have influence but in which we no longer have the control that we once had. That loss of direct control is not necessarily a good or a bad thing. It is a fact. I refer to the Republic of South Africa, which is one of the most complex and diverse countries in the world.
  As time is limited, I propose to refer only to one aspect of our interests there and to relations between the Government and people of Britain and the Government and people of South Africa. I have first to declare that I have no financial interest or investment in, or any income from, South Africa. That is the reverse of the usual arrangement. I wish there was a register of members' interests, so that there was no verbal need to declare interests which one had or, alternatively, did not have.
  In October 1972 there was published a book—which has since been widely read—entitled "The South African

  1585
  Connection: Western Investment in Apartheid". At the back of the book there is an index of British Members of Parliament who are directors of companies that have either a direct or an indirect financial interest in South Africa. My name was listed there as a director of a company which had such financial interests.
  There is a person of my name who has that privilege or responsibility. The company is next to the coal mine at which I used to work. That was as near as we ever came together, but the book entry obviously caused some difficulties for me. The error was corrected in The Times of 13th December 1972—even the edition in the Library has been corrected—and a fairly substantial sum of damages was paid, which, in one way or another, has found its way to South Africa for causes which I think almost everyone would support. I am sorry to have to take up time on that, but this is an opportunity, after some time, to get the matter on the record.
  The Labour Party's position on South Africa is part of a continuing saga. Part of that saga came out in a report a little while ago. But the last firm report—the last before the Labour Party conference —was outlined in "Labour's Programme for Britain" published in 1972. On page 78, it said:
  "The Labour Party totally rejects the basis of society in South Africa, which because it has rightly been called a danger to peace in Africa by the United Nations, must be of major concern to everybody. South Africa's apartheid policy is not just a domestic affair for the Republic alone, it is a major threat to civilised values everywhere and western states have a particular responsibility because South Africa is, mainly though not exclusively, involved with the West.
  The Labour Party has not advocated unilateral economic action by Britain alone. The figures speak for themselves. In 1971, Britain's exports to South Africa were worth £395·4 million and imports from South Africa £241·3 million. Although these figures are less than Britain's trade with independent Africa, they are still substantial. The Labour Party would support international action against South Africa and the use of trade embargoes, but would expect parallel action by the international community to help re-direct Britain's trade elsewhere. As we are South Africa's main trading partner, this parallel action is vital to Britain if British workers are to be protected. Unilateral action would adversely affect the jobs of British workers in a situation of already high unemployment brought on
  1586
  by Britain's Conservative Government, and would not produce the desired effect on South Africa if British trade were replaced from elsewhere."
  That might not be a very ethical statement, but it is practical. It goes on:
  "These and other issues are under review at the present time and proposals concerning our relations with South Africa will be contained in the 1973 Statement."
  We have had part of that statement.
  So the policy of the Labour Party is evolving, and the time to influence policy is when it is being made, not after policy has been finalised. The back benches are not necessarily the best place from which to influence that policy, but it is important to get something on the record.
  Many of the problems in South Africa which we call racial would, in another country, be social, economic, industrial and educational problems. Many of the problems of the Industrial Revolution and some of the religious problems of Northern Ireland would, in South Africa become racial.
  My own interest in and experience of this situation stems from the fact that, from 1964, in spite of the many attractions of foreign travel, I was mainly a stay-in-the-United Kingdom Member of Parliament. Foreign travel is easier for some Members than for others, but it should not necessarily be available only to the very rich or the very righteous Members. Let us share it around.
  I did my best to look after my constituency and the interests of Merseyside, and kept away from foreign attractions, but it seemed that for an Opposition Member the mid-term of a Parliament was a good time to look at other parts of the world. Last year, I had the opportunity of a three-week visit to South Africa—a week in Durban, a week in Cape Town and a week in Johannesburg. The idea was to have a clear, cold look at the people, the problems and some of the opportunities of South Africa.
  The invitation came from the South Africa Foundation. Some of my colleagues know of this organisation, and many have particular views about it. Some say that it is a broadly-based organisation, independent of Government and industry, which sets out the problems and opportunities of South Africa. Others say that it is simply a front organisation. I understand that the invitation to Labourd

  1587
  Members came because people in South Africa complained that only Conservative Members were being invited by the South Africa Foundation to visit their country.
  The invitation was considered carefully and was then accepted, on the understanding that my two colleagues and I could go where we wanted, to see whom we wanted within the restrictions imposed by the Government, look, listen and learn. There would be no strings attached.
  There are those in the House who believe that if one accepts an invitation to lunch or dinner or a trip abroad, one is selling one's soul. My father, when I came to this House, said, "Eric, you will meet people who can buy you or sell you, but you are the only one who can decide whether you are for sale." He added, "If you decide to sell yourself, make sure you get a good price." He was a practical man. That has not happened, but if anyone thinks that a Member of Parliament can be bought for a trip abroad, such a Member is not worth buying.
  There was time, over a seven-months' period, to arrange not only the official programme, following some illustrious predecessors in the Conservative Party, but also an unofficial programme of checks and counterchecks. We made no guided tour".
  Before leaving, we informed the Labour Party, Transport House, the Labour Whips, my right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South-East (Mr. Callaghan) the TUC, the Foreign Office, the South African Ambassador and my National Union of Mineworkers. We took advice and gained some information. I took with me letters of introduction from His Excellency Cardinal Heenan, Archbishop Beck, Bishop Butler, the Father Provincial of the Friars Minor, the Secretary of the Methodist Conference, Doctor Greet, the National Union of Mineworkers and from private individuals and companies. That was a fairly mixed bag of introductions.
  In the week in Cape Town, we saw Mr. Grobbelaar of TUCSA, the Trade Union Congress of South Africa, Mr. Sonny Leone of the Coloured Labour Party, Mr. Schwartz of the Coloured Representative Council, people from the
  1588
  University of the Western Cape for Coloureds, Monsignor Galvin of the Roman Catholic Church and Newton Thompson of the United Party. We met Helen Joseph at a public meeting at Rodebosch which should have taken place in a hall half the size of this Chamber, surrounded by security forces. By some chance, tear gas bombs were thrown. It would have been worse had it not been known that British MPs were present.
  At one place we were accused of being Communists and at another of being members of the South African Special Branch. We had lively receptions, but interesting ones. We met leaders of the Afrikaaner University at Stellenbosch, Admiral Johnson, and an ex-P and O officer, and a member of the British Naval Reserve, and we visited the Simonstown dockyard, which seemed to be staffed almost entirely by people from Salford or Scotland. It is like a little piece of England, except that everyone spoke with a Scots accent. We met Victor Norton of the Cape Times, members of the Dutch Reformed Kirk and anyone who would talk to us about the problems and the opportunities.
  In Durban, we visited Umlazi and Chatsworth, and toured the harbour and the Shell refinery, Tongaat, and Frametex. We also met the Indian Representative Council—an influential part of the community—I would have hoped—in South Africa. But, from meetings with that council I got the unfortunate impression that the Indian community were conscious of their standards of living, education and behaviour, which qualified them for equal treatment with the whites, that they were concerned almost exclusively for their own people, and not as much as they should have been with the coloured or Bantu people.
  We visited the Transkei and we met Du Chene Gris of the South African Race Relations Institute, Katcha Bultelezi, Chief of the Zulus, and Helen Susman. In Johannesburg, we met Marais Steyn, at that time the recently deposed leader of the United Transvaal Party.
  We also met members of the National Union of Mineworkers. If hon. Members opposite think that they have ever met tough union negotiators, they should

  1589
  meet the white South African mineworkers. They played it very cleverly. Instead of sending some of their perhaps more committed members, either in economic or in racial terms, they sent a charming man who was so nice that all we could discuss were geological problems rather than racial or economic problems. But at least I met them. We went to meet representatives of the General Electric Company, and met friends in English Electric, ICI and South Africa Telephone Manufacturers. We met a whole range of people. We made a visit to Pretoria. We toured some of the Army camps outside Pretoria and saw the South African security forces there. If anyone has any doubt about their ability to contain any troubles within their country, that kind of visit is well worth making.
  We met many people, in public and in private, and visited many other places, officially and unofficially. I do not intend to list more people than I have done. It is not my desire to cause any difficulties for anyone in South Africa by naming them all, whether we met them officially or unofficially, lawfully or unlawfully. I do not think that we broke the law, but we may have bent it on a couple of occasions.
  I take three points which arise from those contacts and discussions, which have led me to some conclusions. First, it is a time of change in South Africa. By how much or how far no one yet knows. We saw that from the trade unions, the industrialists and some of the church leaders. It is particularly a time of economic change. Economic pressures on industry, in job reservations, wage rates and training opportunities, mean that the whole attitude of the trade unions and employers is changing.
  It is also time for possible political changes. The Nationalist Party will not be swept out of power by either the United Party or the Progressive Party. But it may well be that some of the Nationalists' policies will change and that they will adopt variations of some of the policies of the Opposition. We have seen that happen in this House over the last two or three years. It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that versions of proposals, perhaps the federal type of
  1590
  plan put forward by the United Party, will be taken over by the Nationalist Party.
  My main point concerns opportunities raised by British investment in South Africa. This matter has been before this House and the country in may ways over the last six to twelve months. Roughly 60 per cent. of South African industry is either British based or British linked. GEC—this is particularly relevant to my constituency—sends back £20 million worth of orders for work in the United Kingdom. It may be that some people in GEC in West Derby, Liverpool, would say, "Pull out investment", but if one asked the 12,000 people working in the Liverpool factory whether we should do that and give up the work that comes from South Africa, a different answer would be forthcoming.
  In practical terms, a reduction or withdrawal of investment will not happen and would not help. We can use British investment to make things better. The Guardian has run a campaign with front page articles. Our Select Committee is directly interested. British-based or British-linked companies are open to influence from Britain and can be persuaded or pressured to improve the wages and conditions of their workers. The lessons of Distillers Company have been lessons for us. There was tremendous pressure on Distillers to improve the offer for thalidomide victims. There were improvements in the offers after parliamentary debate, and so on, but I believe that the real change in Distillers attitude came when Prudential Assurance had a quiet word with the company, as major shareholders, and said that the situation was not doing them any good—that they had to do better. Lonrho is rather different. However, the influence of shareholders on companies, as exemplified by Distillers, could be used and improvements could come through for the benefit of all South African workers.
  A method of improving the wages, conditions and opportunities there, and training, education, housing and social opportunities, could be found if the influence of British shareholders, be they local government, churches or individuals, was exerted on British-based companies which have sectors in South Africa.

  1591
  We met only one person in South Africa who was aiming for a revolution. All the rest were aiming for evolution and fair shares. We put the question many times—contact or quarantine? That was the basic question. It was whether we should do a Pontius Pilate over South Africa, saying that things were so bad that they would not be changed by anyone and that we should just have to wait for the worst, or whether there was a glimmering of hope that by contact and persuasion, particularly by bringing South African people out to the rest of the world, we could help to change things.
  It will not happen overnight. But all those whom we met—all the details are available for anyone who wants them—whether they were Bantu, Coloured, Indian or Afrikaaner, or Nationalist, English Progressive or United Party, or in industry or the church, or trade unions, said that it was contact that was required and not quarantine. These are their words—not mine alone.
  There are many ways in which the Labour Party can help, and the TUC and individuals, with direct links. Everyone we met was saying, "Help to make these contacts better." There is an old saying that not everyone can hold up the world but those who can, do. There were many in South Africa, good people of all races, creeds and colours, who said to us, Help us to hold up our little bit of the world and to make it better. Help us and do not abandon us."
  6.25 p.m.
  Mr. Patrick Wall: I support the views expressed about the relief or, at the minimum, the modification of the prison conditions of Rudolf Hess. That is a view held on both sides of the House.
  I should like to follow some of the points about South Africa made by the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Ogden), but for brevity's sake I shall take just one point, about African wages and conditions. I agree that the higher the wages paid to Africans in South Africa, the better. But we have to bear in mind, on both sides of the House, that if there is a major increase in wages to African labour in South Africa, the inevitable result will be that a large number of workers will be laid off. A smaller
  1592
  number will be getting more pay, but a larger number will have no work. Neither side of the House would want that. That is one of the dangers. The hon. Gentleman's speech showed that the exchange of visits and views can do nothing but good, to this House, to Britain and in South Africa.
  In opening the debate, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State talked about the trend to co-operation, and only a fool would be unhappy at the growth and the policy of détente. Equally, only a fool would lower his guard at present. The USSR today needs Western technology and food, and is fearful of China. Therefore, we have a policy of détente. We hope very much that this policy will continue and mature and that it will be proved to be a positive, long-lasting policy. But we must still keep up our guard and keep in mind the dangers that exist today to the flanks of NATO and the danger of the continuing and general subversion of the West's will to resist, both at home and abroad.
  The buttress of our foreign policy since the end of the war has been the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. That organisation, more than anything else, has prevented world war three. The discussions that are taking place about mutual and balanced force reductions concern only central Europe and completely leave out the flanks and, particularly, the seas of the world to the north and south. There is the danger.
  I want briefly to mention a country in the north and certain countries in the south. In the north, I would refer to the present problem that we are having with Iceland. I start by congratulating the Government on the way that they have handled this problem. It is extremely important that we make it clear that there are in fact two different problems. The first is one of limits, namely, what should be the right limits for fishing for oil exploration, or for anything else. That can be decided only by international agreement at the Conference on the Law of the Sea next year. The second problem is the unilateral action on the part of the Icelandic Government in seizing a limit of 50 miles.
  I hope very much that the Government will consult the House about their proposed policy at the Conference on the

  1593
  Law of the Sea, because that is important. I believe that the limit will be extended and that it is vital to see that that is done over a comparatively long phasing-out period, so as to give time for the world's fishing industries to adjust themselves.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Bolton, East (Mr. Laurance Reed) is right to put his view that Iceland has a good case. I agree with that to some extent. But to suggest that the Royal Navy is trying to enforce international law by force when it interposes itself between our trawlers and Icelandic gunboats, as I believe my hon. Friend suggested, is a perversion of the truth. The Royal Navy is there to protect our fishermen who have been shot at by rifle fire and shell fire by Icelandic gunboats on the high seas. I am sure that if my hon. Friend's constituents were in such a position, he would ensure that they were protected, as is their right.
  Mr. Laurance Reed: The point I made earlier seems to have been misunderstood. I am saying that, where there is a judgment by an international court, it is for the international community to secure compliance, not the parties to the dispute, any more than one would expect that in an ordinary civil action in this country.
  Mr. Wall: Surely my hon. Friend realises that that international action is exactly what will happen next year at the Conference on the Law of the Sea. We are complaining about the unilateral action of the Icelandic Government using violence against our ships, which they have no right to do.
  The Icelandic Government estimated that the winter weather last year would prevent our fishermen from carrying on their fishing inside the new limits. They were wrong. They now estimate that, because we are fishing under the protection of the Royal Navy, we shall not be able to catch the 170,000 tons which have been allowed by the International Court. I am convinced that the Icelandic Government will be proved wrong again. They are thinking in terms of the last cod war when we were fishing between six and 12 miles. Today we are fishing between 12 and 50 miles, which is a very different matter. I believe that our fishermen will
  1594
  be able to ply their trade under the protection of the Royal Navy and that they will catch the maximum amount of fish permitted.
  I have been in Iceland recently, and I know that the other issue which is continually to the forefront is the pressure against the American maritime air base at Keflavik. This pressure is misguided. Keflavik accounts for about 6 per cent. of Iceland's gross national product and, if it were to go, Iceland, whose economy is already pretty shaky, would feel the draught immediately. Secondly, no one in Iceland seems to have appreciated that the Americans could well retaliate. If they were to be told to get out of Keflavik, they might well decide not to buy any of Iceland's fish, which could well finish Iceland's economy, which, as I have said, is already dicky.
  I hope that the Icelandic Government will realise the complexities of the situation and that we have some sympathy for them in the position in which they find themselves. I hope, too, that they will return to the negotiating table which could only be to the advantage of Iceland, Britain and the international community as a whole.
  I shall devote the rest of my speech to the southern flank, particularly the subject of oil. The energy gap is the most important question facing the world for the next generation or, possibly, two generations.
  That brings to mind immediately two issues—first, that Europe draws 57 per cent. of its oil from the Middle East and that the oil comes round the Cape; secondly, that America in the next decade will draw 60 per cent. of its oil from the Middle East, also round the Cape. We have also the problem of the immense increase in wealth which is going to the nations supplying the oil—the nations of the Arab world—and the effect that this could have on international monetary policy. Obviously, we shall have to consider this problem carefully in the future.
  I believe that the dependence of the West on its long-range oil supply round the Cape is crucial. The question has been asked: why should the Soviet Union bother about this; if it wanted to be aggressive, would it not be so much easier and quicker to invade the

  1595
  Middle East? Any such action would be the cause of world war three, as the Soviet Union knows as well as we do.
  The alternative is to take action against this long and tenuous line of Western oil communications either directly or through a third party. This could happen. Such action has been taken in the past—in the Nyon agreement during the Spanish Civil War, the Malaysian and Indonesian confrontation, and other such conflicts.
  Only last week, at the meeting of Western European Union, General Goodpaster, Supreme Allied Commander in Europe, emphasised the dependence of the West on this oil route and said how worried he was about it. We must have a policy of flexible response, not only in central Europe, but also as regards our oil supplies. I do not believe that we can have such a policy without the help of South Africa, Rhodesia and the Portuguese provinces in Africa. This is the burden of my speech.
  It has become fashionable in recent months in the Press and elsewhere to say that the British Government have a choice between black Africa and southern Africa, and to try to force them to make this choice, the pressure being clearly in favour of black Africa. I do not believe that we have to make this choice. We want to trade and be friends with both sides and use our influence on both sides to try to persuade them to come together for the common good of that continent.
  I want to put some important figures on the record. First, not more than 10 per cent. of our oil supplies come from Nigeria. As I have already said, about 60 per cent. of our supplies and those of America, will come round the Cape during the next decade.
  The relative figures of investments for black Africa, excluding the Arabs, and for southern Africa—not South Africa, alone—are as follows. The book value of investments, less oil, in Southern Africa is £740 million. In other African Commonwealth countries it is £280 million plus £72 million in other independent African States, a total of £352 million. Thus the value of our investments in Southern Africa is twice the value of our investments in the rest of Africa.
  Our investment in oil in Nigeria is worth from £150 million to £200 million,
  1596
  but that still leaves a large balance in favour of the south. Adding to that the value of our holding of South African securities of about £1,000 million, it is clear that the balance of investments is much in favour of the south rather than of black Africa.
  In 1972, the figures of United Kingdom imports and exports were: imports from the south, £352 million, and from black Africa, inclusive of Nigerian oil, £457 million; exports to the south, £342 million, and to black Africa, £405 million. That gives a slight bias in favour of the north, of black Africa. But weighed in the balance must be the growing tendency in African, Commonwealth and independent States towards the nationalisation or expropriation of British firms, which does not happen in the south.
  My object is to try to put the balance sheet to the House. I do not want this country to be forced to make a choice between the two areas. That would be wrong for this country and I do not think any hon. Member would want it to happen. However, if we have to make a choice, if a decision is forced on us, it seems clear where the balance of British advantage lies in both economic and strategic terms.
  I return to the vital question of the oil routes; 60 ships a day pass Cape Town. One thousand ships a month call at South African ports. Yet the British Government have not yet implemented the undertakings they gave when in opposition. The House will recall that in 1967 it debated the question of the supply of maritime arms for the defence of the Cape route. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, who was then the Leader of the Opposition, said:
  "The Government have taken the wrong decision."
  That was when they decided to suspend the delivery of arms to South Africa.
  "They have failed to justify it to the House. It is damaging to our national interest in finance, in trade and in defence, and a Conservative Administration will reverse it"— [OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th December 1967; Vol. 756, c. 1152.]
  That pledge has not yet been fulfilled. True, we have provided the South African navy with eight small anti-submarine helicopters, but that was after a good deal of flap and bother including a White Paper. The Labour Government provided

  1597
  16 Buccaneers, which we built in my constituency and four of which have since been written off in accidents. Are replacements to be supplied?
  I remind my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State that when as Leader of the Opposition he came to my constituency and was asked at a meeting whether a Conservative Government would supply Buccaneers to South Africa when returned to office he said, "Yes." They have not yet been supplied. When I table Questions on this matter, I get the stock Foreign Office answer to the effect that no orders have yet been placed. Every hon. Member and every civil servant knows that orders from South Africa are not placed until an assurance has been given that export licences will be granted. The Simonstown Agreement must be fulfilled in the spirit as well as in the law, if our oil routes are to be adequately defended.
  May I leave it at that? We are running into the danger of being faced with the choice, which is presented in the Press and other mass media, between black and southern Africa. By havering between the two, not making up our minds, not being firm with either side, we run the risk of being distrusted by both.
  I do not propose to mention Rhodesia, as I want to be as brief as possible. I end with a word about Portugal. I believe that both sides of the House accept that the Portuguese are the most non-racial of all European nations. They have been attacked from the Opposition Front Bench today for colonialism. The figure of 200,000 troops in Africa has been mentioned, but it is much inflated.
  I do not believe that the Portuguese attitude can be termed colonialist. I was asked why they have any troops in Africa at all. The answer is that they are there because of attacks by guerrillas armed with Communist—that is, Russian or Chinese—weapons, by guerrilla forces based in Tanzania, Zambia or sometimes in Zaire. The Portuguese are defending their own people. The Portuguese have borne the brunt of the fighting because they believe in themselves and still believe in their mission in the world. I believe that they carry massive African support. Two-thirds of their army are now black. Nobody can tell me that if the soldiers in
  1598
  that army were opressed they would not revolt.
  Mr. Iain Sproat: It is true that approaching two-thirds of the Portuguese troops are black, but there is also a large equivalent of a Home Guard who are all black, who are all armed, and who have no white officers in almost every case.
  Mr. Wall: I agree with my hon. Friend and this also applies to civil life.
  Elections have now been held in the provinces in which I am particularly interested—Angola, Mozambique and, to a lesser extent, Guinea. In Angola 53 members were elected to the legislative assembly, of whom 23 were non-white, and there was a poll of over 85 per cent. In Mozambique, of the 50 elected representatives, 28 were non-white, and there was a poll of more than 90 per cent. In Guinea, 17 members were elected, of whom 15 were non-white, and the poll was 89 per cent. That does not look to me like Fascism or colonialism or anything else of which the Portuguese are accused from Labour benches.
  Portugal believes in her rôle in Africa, In that she has the support of millions of non-white Portuguese in Africa and elsewhere in their fight against terrorists who have been armed by Moscow or Peking. I believe that the last fling of the terrorists in Mozambique is their attack on Cabora Bassa, which has already failed, as will be evident to the world when the dam is completed and starts operation in 1975.
  I very much welcome the visit of the Portuguese Prime Minister to this country. I believe that the Anglo-Portuguese alliance is as important today as it was 600 years ago, and I greatly hope that it will last another 600 years.
  6.43 p.m.
  Mr. James Johnson: It is a cliché in the House to say "If the hon. Member will excuse me for not commenting on what he says" but I hope that the hon. Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall) will not excuse me, because I wish to comment on just one thing he said and to make my speech on that subject. I refer to the so-called cod war.
  At present there is a quiet but most significant lull in the situation. It is to be welcomed, but we must be ever-vigilant

  1599
  in the defence of our fishermen, their interests and their welfare.
  There is a need to state the case about Iceland, because there is developing a quiet and insidious campaign on behalf of the Icelandic fishing industry. I make no complaint about that. I do not mind the friends of Iceland. I am a friend of Iceland, with a small "f," not a big "F." But it is a little ironic that we allow Icelandic MPs to come here and speak—I was debating with one a few hours ago in Hull—when the Icelanders expelled a member of our embassy in Iceland over a slight misunderstanding. However, I wish to behave like Voltaire in this matter. I do not deny the Icelander's case for a moment. They have an overwhelming dependence on fishing, but we must examine their case not with too much sympathy but with genuine objectivity.
  I wish to dispel one or two myths and legends that are beginning to develop in the northern mists of the Atlantic. Iceland has a case for extension of the limits, but it has behaved in the most uncivilised fashion. I accept Iceland's dependence upon fishing, but the correct figure is that it accounts for 48 per cent. of its budget. I accept its export figure, but let us not forget tourism, agriculture, aluminium and the NATO base.
  It is not correct to say that the Icelanders have no fuel. They have inexhaustable supplies of thermal energy. Thanks to the Danes, they can heat their capital city and their horticultural glasshouses. Iceland is not a poor nation, and no one wishes it to be one. The Icelanders have a higher gross national product per head and a higher standard of living then we have.
  Let us examine the new international law which has been mentioned. In 1961 we willingly signed an agreement in which we said that any future dispute should be taken to the International Court at The Hague. Twice, by 14 votes to one, the court, an arm of the United Nations, to which both Iceland and the United Kingdom belong, has told Iceland to find an interim agreement with us pending the conference next year in Santiago. Iceland takes up the position that she is judge in her own cause. It is ludicrous for anyone to say that we are in any way sheltering behind or using the court in a dubious way.
  1600
  Iceland's behaviour is a sure recipe for chaos in the north-east Atlantic. Iceland is the odd man out in the North-East Atlantic Fisheries Conference, where all other nations, both east and west of the Iron Curtain, accept the 12-mile limit for the time being. All the nations which have extended their limits so far, with the exception of Canada, are either Latins in South America or Afro-Asians, and with none of those have we had any dispute. None of them has attacked any of our fishing vessels. With the utmost good will, I find that Iceland is pursuing a lone course. Some people might accuse Iceland of wanting a monopoly, but I state bluntly that her politicians—Mr. Joseffson and others—definitely know that they will get a bigger share of total annual catch than they are now getting by any agreement they care to make with us freely and honourably.
  I was in Iceland at the time of the last talks. Despite the fact that in 1971 we landed 210,000 tons, we not only accepted the cut suggested by the court to 170,000 tons, but went down to 155,000 and finally to 145,000. I wish that the Icelanders would get off their base of 117,000 tons. I believe that we would go below our so-called base of 145,000 tons and that we might find a figure between the two.
  The north-east Atlantic is not fished out. There has been over-fishing, which is a vastly different matter and could be coped with by means of limitation of catch if we could all get together and decide upon it. The North-East Atlantic Fisheries Conference is the authority upon conservation in those waters. It depends for scientific advice upon the International Council for Exploration of the Sea. The White Paper is correct to say that there have been five surveys between 1965 and 1972, and they recommend limitation of catch by all manner of means. The only nation which will not ratify agreement upon that is Iceland. Thereby she stultifies any action that we can take jointly to conserve her own fishing stocks.
  I refer next to the sending of frigates. I will not say a word about the distress and unemployment that could be caused in Hull or any other fishing port, speaking as I do as a constituency Member, but our constituents were attacked daily by shot and shell. Their

  1601
  warps were cut. The fact of life is that since our Navy went in on 19th May not a single warp has been cut. Our men are fishing peacefully and fetching home good catches. I do not say that the lull can continue well beyond the Santiago conference. However, the existing conditions are a base or an atmosphere on which we might begin talks again and reach a genuine settlement.
  Unlike the hon. Member for Haltemprice I discount the Communist bogy. I believe that the Icelanders are nationalist even to the point of chauvinism and that they do not wish to have any aliens—I almost said expatriates—living on their island, fishing upon their banks, or living on the NATO base.
  I speak as a Member representing a constituency that has approximately 100 fishing vessels in its docks. I do not accept for one moment that the Navy should be asked to come out under existing conditions. I know that our skippers and crews would not fish there under constant harassment unless they receive the legitimate protection which they deserve as our people. They are lawfully engaged upon their centuries-old pursuit upon the international high seas.
  Ordinary working-class people who have to get their living and who go to sea in dangerous conditions have no doubt about the position. It is a fact that we have never used our Navy before in this context, but no country except Iceland has ever attacked our fishing vessels in this way.
  I contend that we are justified in defending our people in these circumstances. It is vital that we all work for a peaceful solution. Iceland has the solution in its own hands. If it will come to a sixth set of talks and settle for a limitation of catch between 117,000 tons and 145,000 tons, a solution can be found.
  The ocean covers 72 per cent. of the surface of the globe. The oceans should be looked upon as the common heritage of mankind. At this moment, government in the oceans is virtually nil outside the 12-mile limit. The unilateral action of Iceland merely adds to the incipient chaos which prevails all over the oceans. It is our duty to work together and not to encourage Iceland to continue as the sole outlaw in the north-east Atlantic. That
  1602
  is a duty which we have not only to our fishermen, but to all mankind.
  6.54 p.m.
  Mr. Julian Ridsdale: I hope that the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, West (Mr. James Johnson) will excuse me if I do not take up his speech, except to say that, as a fellow hon. Member from an East Coast port with some fishermen, I admire the battle which he is fighting not only for his fishermen but for our fishermen of the United Kingdom.
  Mr. James Johnson: I have been handed a note which says:
  "The Icelandic patrol vessel 'Thor' today severed two warps of the Hull trawler Arctic Vandal'."
  Mr. Ridsdale: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs has given us a grand review of his extremely successful stewardship of the Foreign Office. I am sure that the greatest achievement of the Government has been to give us the opportunity of playing our part as a member of the EEC and our part in European affairs. I have always said, as a liberally minded new member of the EEC, that I realise full well that we shall have some battles to fight over the protectionism of some of the other members of the EEC. I represent a number of people, too, who are concerned about agricultural policy. I know that those people would like to see a reform of the common agricultural policy.
  Today I shall concentrate on Eastern Asia. When I first went to Asia it was called the Far East because it took about six weeks to get there. Today it takes approximately 15 hours to fly to Tokyo. That makes me realise what a small world we are living in today and how Eastern Asia has been brought so much closer to Europe.
  My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs referred to our policy towards China, and as I have just paid a visit to Japan it is appropriate that I should refer to Eastern Asia. It was fortunate that my visit coincided with that of yours, Mr. Speaker. If it is not out of place, should like to congratulate you on the success of your mission in opening the British Parliamentary Exhibition in Tokyo. The wit which you used in your speeches pleased the Japanese. Your

  1603
  visit was also helpful in aiding our relations with Japan and making a good foundation for the new relationship between Japan and Europe.
  We have been fighting too long a rearguard action in our withdrawal from the empire. We have found a new rôle as a liberal and outward-looking member of the enlarged European Economic Community. It is in that new rôle that I found in Japan a real and new attention being paid to our attitude and views. Our parliamentary delegation of 10 hon. Members was the first of a series of invitations which the Japanese Government are making to other members of the EEC Governments. We met the Japanese Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary, leaders of Japanese industry and trade unions, and Japanese MPs, as well as visiting Japan's industry.
  We paid an official visit to Hiroshima at our request. We learned how a 50-megaton bomb had killed 250,000 people. When we consider that we are now building 1-million megaton bombs we should realise what could happen now. Perhaps that was the biggest impression which we had after visiting Hiroshima. After visiting the city I realised how vital it was that the Government initiated and signed the Test Ban Treaty of 1963 and how vital it is for other Powers in close proximity to Japan who are exploding nuclear bombs to realise the deep feelings which exist in Japan and in the world about what is happening at present.
  Hiroshima, like Japan, is a hive of bustling economic activity. Japan, like Europe, is a huge importer of raw materials, especially oil. Like Great Britain, Japan is dependent upon maintaining an expanding world trade. That is why Japan is so concerned about the forthcoming negotiations with the EEC. From some of the things which I have heard, I am slightly anxious about some of the protectionist lobbyists which I have heard working inside Europe, and I am, therefore, concerned for the possible outcome of the negotiations in Tokyo.
  Our delegation had some rough words to say about Japan's hosepipe operations on small sections of industry such as the ballbearing industry. However, since 1st May capital liberalisation has been enforced. I am sure that it is fair to say, when trade restrictions and trade practices are considered, that Japan is at least
  1604
  on even terms with most of the developed countries, including the United States.
  Japan's fear is that we in Europe and the United States will be tempted to resort to protective trade policies rather than positive and outward-looking attitudes to solve international conflicts of interest. Undoubtedly our Prime Minister's visit, at a particularly difficult time for him, did a great deal to assure Japan that we wanted to extend our trade and that protection would be resorted to only as a last resort.
  I am certain that there are great opportunities for exports to Japan. There are also great opportunities for Japanese investment capital in our regions. The Japanese want to export more of their capital. But we must get over to them that our labour relations have reached a new and better phase. In this, it would be worth while for other delegations, such as one from the trade unions, to go to Japan to talk to the Japanese about our labour relations and our hopes for the future. Unfortunately, over the last few years the picture we have drawn of this country has created a fear of investing here. This bad image has been painted perhaps more because of political differences in this House than in industry, but it has suggested to many people overseas that Britain is not a good place in which to invest. This is why I am so anxious to get over the point that other delegations could help to improve the picture.
  One of the main things which our parliamentary delegation learnt in Japan was that there are great opportunities to seize if we can get away from the internecine squabbles which so many people accept as the picture of Britain, however untrue it may be.
  Foreign travel is altering the outlook of many insular-minded Japanese. Nevertheless, they still have in their minds how in the 1930s they became isolated and extremists took control. They fear, quite rightly, that economic nationalism could drive them into isolation again. This time, however, bearing in mind the expansion of their industry, it would be even more disastrous. Japanese oil requirements have expanded from 4 million tons a year in 1940, largely for military purposes, to 240 million tons today. Their steel production in 1940 was 5 million tons a year

  1605
  and today it is 100 million tons. All their raw materials are imported.
  Quite rightly, of late we have been concentrating on improving our relations with China, and I welcome my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister's visit to Peking this autumn. But we must be careful not to do this at the expense of our relations with Japan. My concern is lest, because of economic competition, we repeat the mistakes we made in the 1930s and isolate Japan. We obviously have used, and will continue to use, rough words, as we did on our visit, about some of their economic practices, but they are spoken against the background of political friendship.
  Undoubtedly, however, there is growing nationalism in Japan. This is why we must not repeat the mistakes of the 1930s. The Japanese are not the easiest people to get to know, as there is such a great language barrier. They are insular people and naturally reserved, like ourselves. The Chinese are more worldly and easier to get to know, and their cuisine, like that of the French, is of worldwide renown. They are also better linguists.
  It is vital, therefore, that our policy should not be that of in any way making a choice between Japan and China as our friend in Asia. We should do all we can to make them both our friends. That is the spirit in which I welcome the Prime Minister's forthcoming visit to China. Japan today, at least economically, is completely in the orbit of the free nations. She has come of age in the post-war world. She is now a most important factor in the balance of power, and I am sure that she is looking to the EEC and particularly to the United Kingdom to help her in her relations with the new Europe. Japan already has a close association with the United States, and a close association with Europe also has real meaning for her today.
  I therefore hope that in the coming negotiations in Tokyo the result will lead to an expansion and not a contraction of trade. That is in the interests of the United Kingdom as well as of Japan. This is a time when vital decisions are being made for the next decade. I want to be sure that our children do not have to suffer as our generation did because
  1606
  of the economic nationalism of the 1930s and the isolation of Japan. It is in the hands of the negotiators in the GATT discussions to ensure that we do not adopt protectionist attitudes which lead to a wave of economic nationalism in the world, because we all know in our hearts that this was a major cause not only of the Japanese war but of the war in Europe as well.
  7.6 p.m.
  Mr. Frank Judd: I applaud the words of the hon. Member for Harwich (Mr. Ridsdale). I am certain that it is impossible to debate intelligently international affairs at this juncture without taking into account the already immense significance of Japan in world affairs, both economic and political, which will be even greater in the future. It deserves a great deal more time in terms of the House's attention.
  I hope that I shall not be regarded as churlish when I say that, despite the most interesting contributions which have been and will be made, the unsatisfactory nature of a wide-ranging debate of this kind underlines again the dreadful lack of priority accorded to foreign affairs by this House. At the time of our entry into the EEC, we heard from hon. Members supporting entry that one of the strongest points in favour was that it would give us a basis for a more significant and relevant rôle in world affairs. Looking back over the past year of parliamentary activity, I do not believe that there is any indication that the House is taking its part in discussion of world affairs, which affect us all so deeply and significantly, as seriously as it should.
  My right hon. Friend the Member for Caernarvon (Mr. Goronwy Roberts) referred to the French nuclear tests. The Opposition feel deeply about them. We all rejoiced to hear the Foreign Secretary making more clear than has so far been done by the Government that formal representations have been made strongly, if privately, to the French. But however strong the private representations, the impact on the French Government must have been muted because of the failure of the British Government to come out openly on the side of our traditional partners in the Commonwealth, Australia and New Zealand, in leaving no doubt where we stand on the issue.

  1607
  We must to some extent try to analyse the reasons for the Government's inhibitions. I hope that we are wrong when we fear at times that one possible explanation lies in the view of the Government that they want to leave their options open in terms of the creation of a European nuclear deterrent and that any forthright stand against the French at this juncture might create grave obstacles in the way of such future developments.
  know that I speak for many of my hon. Friends when I say that we want to leave the Government in no doubt that, whatever the honest differences of opinion we might hold among ourselves about European affairs and institutions, on one thing we hold profoundly to common ground. This is that we want nothing of an independent European nuclear deterrent.
  Having said that, we want to recognise the very significant developments in the relations between the United States and the Soviet Union, to which the Foreign Secretary rightly referred.
  It would be absurd not to see the tremendous opportunities for humanity which this rapprochement offers. Simply because of the new possibilities opened up by the rapprochement, I believe that we should send out a clear message from this House that we want to do everything possible to avoid an unnecessary fragmentation of the Atlantic Alliance. When fresh possibilities for disarmament and détente exist it is not just a matter of making gestures either on the part of the West or the East.
  Surely the challenge is, to responsible political leadership, to make sure that developments in the direction for which we all yearn are guaranteed and underlined. To guarantee developments of this sort demands a strong negotiating position. I believe that we have come to this point of opportunity because of the success story of NATO to date. This is the time when we must say clearly to our partners in the alliance that the Atlantic connection is more fundamentally relevant today than ever before.
  This is not the time to go into details of that relationship. Suffice it to say that we recognise that an inherent and fundamental part of that arrangement has been the significant physical presence
  1608
  of the United States in Western Europe. We all deplore any tendency on the part of the United States—any voices within the United States advocating unilateral withdrawal—which might place in jeopardy the system I have been describing. However, we must recognise that this is a two-sided coin and that if we are concerned for the strength of the Atlantic Alliance we have to see to it that political leaders in Western Europe do all they can in political and economic affairs to underline the inseparable relationship which is the key to effective military co-operation.
  We have to recognise that the voices of antagonism—if I may so describe them—in the States are greatly strengthened when it seems that we are preparing for an economic confrontation with the United States.
  I want to refer to a few points that the Foreign Secretary raised. I take first the issue of Portugal, Greece and Turkey. It is simply because I believe in the importance of the NATO Alliance that I say we have to take far more seriously than we do the danger to the NATO Alliance from within. There is a real danger to the alliance by the corrosion of those principles to which the alliance is theoretically committed. I refer only to Article II of the North Atlantic Treaty, which commits the parties to observe
  "the principles of democracy, individual liberty and the rule of law and the strengthening of their free institutions."
  It is a fact that in Turkey, Greece and Portugal those provisions are by no means fulfilled. Not only where this happens is the strength and cohesion of the alliance undermined but it also occurs where it is condoned. If we are to have wholehearted support for the policies of the alliance it is essential to be able to demonstrate the philosophy and the coherence of the alliance. Those three countries in particular are putting that gravely in jeopardy. I also believe that it it difficult for an alliance to be convincing in its stance in world affairs and to fulfil its potential when regimes in countries of the alliance become so preoccupied with suppressing opposition within their territories that they are not in a strong position to contribute effectively should the alliance collectively come under pressure.
  I reject completely the Foreign Secretary's concept that this is somehow

  1609
  woolly, sentimental or idealistic thinking and not hard-headed, practical analysis. When the right hon. Gentleman uses quotations—and I do not deny those which he used—suggesting that if we want to preserve democracy in our own and other countries in the alliance where democracy means something we must not be too squeamish about certain partners where the same principles of democracy are not observed, I emphasise that while it is easy to say that in this House, if one is a liberal in Greece, Turkey or Portugal, languishing in prison, and perhaps being tortured because of one's views, that sort of remark is seen in a very different light.
  I come to the Foreign Secretary's remarks on Rhodesia. I agree with him, as someone who has tried to follow Southern African affairs fairly closely for a number of years, that the key to the solution of the problems in that area must lie with the people of Southern Africa. One of the profound qualitative changes in the nature of the Southern African situation recently has been the growing realisation on the part of Africans that things will not change as a result of outside intervention, that the most that they can hope for is for enlightened policies from the world community which will support them in their initiative and endeavours.
  If we believe that, it is incumbent upon those of us who wish to see a peaceful change in Southern Africa to point out uncompromisingly to Mr. Smith and his colleagues in the illegal rôgime and to the South African Government, whenever the opportunity arises, that they must come to terms with the fundamental aspiration of the African people which is now majority rule.
  In so far as they refuse to come to terms with that principle they are making confrontation and violence in the political situation inevitable. It is against that background that many of us, most reluctantly because of our outlook towards political, social and economic affairs, have reached the position when we believe we have to support the liberation movements, because whenever an articulate spokesman for the majority puts forward the ultimate political objective he is told uncompromisingly that this is the one concession which is not available.
  1610
  In that situation the men who lead the liberation movements, themselves people who would normally reject any concept of violence, cannot be left alone.
  It is all very well for the hon. Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall) to say that the liberation movements receive their support from Communist Powers. They do receive their support from Communist Powers in terms of military operations because the West has not been prepared to support them effectively in the struggle they are waging. They would welcome support from the West because they have no desire to become prisoners of totalitarian Communist countries. The hon. Gentleman cannot have it both ways.
  There is another point that is related to the two I have been making. What distresses me about our discussions of foreign affairs is that we become preoccupied with the short-term issues at the expense of long-term strategy. I take specifically the issue of Iceland as an example. It seems that whenever we discuss Iceland we do so in terms of the immediate problems with which we are confronted. Should we deploy the Navy? How should we deploy it? Where should we deploy it? What will we achieve by doing so? The lesson staring us in the face is that the real significance of Iceland is that it is symptomatic of the new situation developing in the world.
  There is a grave shortage of world resources and increasingly heavy pressure by the rapidly growing world population on those resources. There is also a determination on the part of the under-privileged that they will not endure third-or fourth-class economic standards any longer but, instead, want fairer access to the world's resources. This has to be coupled with what I believe will be the ultimate condemnation of our generation of politicians—the absolutely irresponsible way in which we have been consuming and destroying the world's nonrenewable resources without ever looking to the future. We like to talk about social justice, and one of the things that frequently strikes me as being very cynical in the way we discuss this is that we discuss it in a horizontal time-scale. We talk of social justice for the existing population but never spare a thought for future generations. A commitment to social justice must mean concern for the

  1611
  unborn just as much as for the already born. This complicates and aggravates the size of the issues with which we are confronted, of which Iceland is an example.
  I would not dot every "I" and cross every "T" of what the hon. Member for Bolton, East (Mr. Laurance Reed) says, but I pay warm tribute to him—and it must have taken a great deal of courage for directing our attention to a proper time perspective. I am sure that if we care about the issues raised in the Icelandic dispute we should be discussing much more what our line will be at the forthcoming international conference on the law of the sea at Santiago where the salvation of humanity will be worked out. We shall have to decide whether it should be just the rich countries, with their technological ability, which should have disproportionate access to limited world resources or whether the resources in the sea belong to humanity as a whole. We must decide how to work out an effective system which ensures that not only nations with a seaboard but land-locked nations as well have a fair share of what is available in and under the sea.
  There are the well demonstrated racial overtones in the problems of southern Africa, but it is not just a racial issue which is the long term issue confronting us. The most serious issue is the confrontation between the disproportionately privileged and the disproportionately disadvantaged, who make up the majority of the world's population. There are two ways of approaching the situation. We must say, either that we should lend our shoulder to realistic mechanisms to try to achieve a fairer distribution of resources, or that we should join the advantaged in deploying all our military and technological skill to keep the world's majority at bay and to go on using disproportionately the advantages which we have traditionally come to enjoy.
  The latter is an honest approach which I think we would all reject as creating a civilisation hardly worth living in. However, if we reject it, we must take a good deal of time in working out how we shall implement the alternative. When we talk, as the Foreign Secretary talked this afternoon, about the forthcoming negotiations within the context of the EEC and the way in which we shall extend the
  1612
  range of associate status for certain countries, let us bear in mind our objective. Is it to fragment the potential collective bargaining power of the developing world in asserting its strength against the advantaged communities to which we belong, or is it genuinely to strengthen its position in obtaining fair access to the resources of the world and to the potential for economic development?
  The countries of the developing world will not be deceived any longer. The message is clear from the majority of the world's population living in the so-called developing countries of the third world. It is, "We do not want your charity. Your charity, if it is necessary to remove the evils caused by your ruthless exploitation, adds insult to injury. What we want is justice in world trade, in the management of the world's economic resources and in the redistribution of the resources of the world community."
  The challenge to political leadership on both sides of the House in the next decade will be how we can help the British people whom we claim to represent to adjust to the fundamental reality of the post-imperial world in which we live.
  7.24 p.m.
  Mr. W. Benyon: I am sure that the hon Member for Portsmouth, West (Mr. Judd) will not expect me to agree with all the points he made in his interesting speech. However, I agree wholeheartedly with what he said about the need to continue the cohesion of NATO.
  I deal first with what my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary said about the peace negotiations currently taking place between India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. Almost a year ago I paid a visit to India and Bangladesh—a very interesting visit it was, too, because the hostilities had just finished—and I watched with admiration the efforts made in that country to build up a stricken economy. Incidentally, it is extremely tragic that another disaster should have struck Bangladesh just the other day.
  I found a great feeling of gratitude for the part which this country played in supplying aid after the end of hostilities. In both Dacca and Delhi optimism was

  1613
  then the order of the day. Now we find, 12 months later, that no progress has been made. Three separate sets of people —the Pakistani prisoners of war in India, the Bengalis in Pakistan and the Pakistanis or Biharis in Bangladesh—are pawns in the negotiations. It is most unsatisfactory that these unfortunate people, particularly the prisoners of war, should be kept in this state for so long.
  The initiative can come only from India. Only India can break the log-jam. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary will make it clear that friends of India, among whom I count myself, find it increasingly difficult to defend the continued delay in releasing the prisoners of war in complete disregard of the Geneva Convention. I hope that India will reject the joint command arguments and will make the first move towards a solution.
  When the history of the present period is written, I think that it will be recorded that overall the world was at peace during this time, and no small amount of credit must go to my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary for the successful diplomacy which he has brought to bear on this situation. There is no major confrontation in the world today. Even the so-called running sores are healing, whether it be Vietnam, the India-Pakistan dispute, Southern Africa and the Middle East. Everywhere tension is at the lowest point it has been for some considerable time. Yet it is all so deceptive. The position will undoubtedly change, and it will change for the worse.
  My theme, therefore, is that it is most important that the British Government should seize the opportunity to disengage from their commitments east of Suez and, I believe, on the continent of Africa. They should remove these hostages to fortune which will prevent the conduct of a successful diplomacy in future years.
  I turn first to the question of the four-Power agreement in Malaysia. I have never been able to regard this agreement as credible, because people do not believe that we have the will or power to reinforce our commitment. It has the basis of a Munich situation, with all the attendant bitterness and disappointments. The Australians want to go; that is clear. I think that we should take the oppor-
  1614
  tunity to remove our land presence in Malaysia and instead rely, as we should have relied from the word "go", on a true maritime strategy throughout the Far East. In the same theatre, I am in favour of the early grant of independence to Hong Kong. We shall have to go eventually, and I suggest that we go now with dignity, when the situation is calm.
  In southern Africa the choice is far more difficult and complicated, but the same principles apply. I was interested to hear the optimistic view of the Rhodesian negotiations put forward by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. I have no interest, financial or otherwise, in Rhodesia, but I have certain sources of information. This information is depressing in the extreme. I hope it is wrong but there appears to be no hope of reaching an agreement with Mr. Smith along the lines of the six principles. The question is what the British Government should do in a situation such as this where they have responsibility without power, which has been the case in Rhodesia from 1922 onwards.
  There is only one possible course of action and that is to make legal a de facto situation. However that is done, whether by a Termination of Sovereignty Bill or by other means, that is the only course of action open to the Government. That does not imply approval of Mr. Smith's régime or the actions that he has taken. The fact that we operate with Greece and Portugal in NATO does not imply that we approve of these régimes. There are many régimes throughout the world of which we disapprove, but if we do not talk or trade with those countries, the position becomes extremely difficult.
  Dr. Miller: The hon. Gentleman says that making legal the de facto position in Rhodesia does not imply approval of the Smith rôgime, but does not he agree that to do that would be to abandon 4 million Africans to a situation which we might be able to influence in the near future?
  Mr. Benyon: From the word "go" neither the previous Government nor this Government have been able to exercise any influence in that country. The situation will not change one iota, and we shall simply be accepting the situation as it is.
  This brings me to sanctions. I suggest that we tell the United States that we

  1615
  are not satisfied with being the only country to observe effectively the mandatory sanctions resolution and that if the United Nations cannot put the matter right within one year, we shall have to think again.
  At the same time, I believe we should sever any defence association with the Republic of South Africa. I was interested in the speech made by the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Ogden) who has just been there. To cut off South Africa from contact with the West and to try to stop United Kingdom investment in South Africa cannot be the right policy. The alternative, which is to try to influence people and events in that country but not to play any part in its defence, is the best policy.
  I listened with interest to the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall). I cannot see the difference between a Russian attack on the Middle East and a Russian attack on shipping on the sea routes from the Middle East to the United Kingdom. They are both overt acts of aggression and would evoke a similar response.
  In these days of nuclear submarines, the defence capability of the South African base is limited and ignores the very long tanker routes from the Gulf. A commitment to defend the South African base, is counter-productive to our interests elsewhere in Africa. The three main spheres on which we should concentrate are Europe, the North Atlantic Alliance and the development of our sea power into a true maritime strategy.
  Despite all the optimistic statements that have been made about the European Security Conference, it will not achieve anything. It is a charade, and a dangerous one at that the Russians aim to procure United States withdrawal from Europe and to weaken the newly emerging Community. I am sure that the Russians will offer substantial force reductions, but they will be reductions from already high levels.
  We must ask ourselves why the Russian forces have been increased in the west. One could understand if they had been increased on the eastern border, but they have been increased in the west. Why have the Russians increased their submarine fleet? Russian is a landlocked Power and has no interest in protecting
  1616
  its trade. These weapons therefore can only be offensive weapons.
  I believe that the conference will fail because the will is not there and because there has been no real change in the Russian attitude. The same old imperialism still exists and the fact that it now has a smiling face should make us doubly wary.
  7.35 p.m.
  Mr. Robert Maclennan: The hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Benyon) mentioned several matters, some of which I will take up later. I want to begin by taking a course which is perhaps a little eccentric and which I hope will not be regarded as too academic; that is, to look at Parliament's rôle in the conduct of foreign affairs. I have sensed increasingly over recent years a diminution in that rôle which is both unhealthy for our democracy and unfortunate for the conduct of foreign affairs.
  We have experienced a decline of interest in foreign affairs debates, which is mirrored not only by the relatively small attendance in the Chamber but by the almost complete absence of the Press from the Gallery. This is all the more remarkable because the issues that we are debating are of profound importance to the country and our electors.
  It is worth considering the reasons for this. One reason is, perhaps, that Parliament's prestige in foreign affairs has declined, partly because it is relatively less well informed on foreign affairs questions. It may seem somewhat churlish to say this to hon. and right hon. Members who have made extremely useful and interesting contributions. It is not intended to be a reflection on the participants in the debate or on those to come. It is a reflection of the enormously expanded range of our national interests projected on to an international plane.
  This has resulted in hon. Members becoming specialists and talking to the Minister about the subject in which they are particularly interested. The Minister has the benefit of the individual's views and experiences which are highly informed, but it means that Parliament rarely expresses a collective view or consensus on major issues. The result is

  1617
  that the Government are forced to rely primarily in their formulation and conduct of foreign policy upon the advice of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and only secondarily to consider the views of Parliament.
  This is, perhaps, entirely natural and, in the light of the fact that we have such an extremly skilful foreign service, not wholly to be deplored, but there are certain disadvantages in the Government's relying so exclusively upon the foreign service for advice. Among the disadvantages is one that is apparent not only in the conduct of foreign affairs but in all spheres of Government—a natural tendency to caution and a great reluctance to effect changes of direction. There is also a tendency not to recognise when a change of circumstances dictates a change of Government policy.
  Parliament offsets this natural caution of the Civil Service in domestic spheres much more effectively than it does in the conduct of foreign affairs. Hon. Members who participate in domestic debates speak with the weight of their personal involvement in the issues. They speak as representatives of interested groups, for different sections of the community, for different parts of the country. They do not come to foreign affairs debates with quite such an immediacy in terms of knowledge and understanding of world problems.
  Parliament must take account of this diminution of its rôle and consider what best can be done to improve its participation. It is significant that in the evidence that he gave to the Franks Committee on the Official Secrets Act, Sir Denis Greenhill, Permanent Secretary of the Foreign Office, spoke of the importance of foreign affairs debates, but he said:
  "I think it is fair to say that foreign affairs debates in the House of Commons attract less attention than they used to, and it was foreign affairs debates which were very often the main source of information about policy."
  Certainly, foreign affairs debates are infrequent. Indeed, we have had only two general foreign affairs debates in the last two years. It cannot be thought that foreign affairs debates supply Members with information of a current nature. Clearly, if we are seeking information we must find it elsewhere.
  1618
  There is the further disadvantage that such information as is vouchsafed by members of the Government is information that they wish to vouchsafe and not necessarily information that Parliament might think relevant in considering important issues. It is almost inevitable that the information obtained in such debates will necessarily be superficial and cursory if all the important areas of policy have to be considered once every six months. Therefore, we must look for some new parliamentary device for the conduct of our exchange with the Government on foreign affairs than this kind of generalised two-day debate which does not allow the House to focus the issues.
  Every contribution that has been made this afternoon has related to an important matter, but there has been no coherence and no consensus. At the end of the day I cannot believe that the Government will feel either greatly fortified that their view has been greatly challenged by our opinions or particularly affected by what has been said.
  This aspect of the matter is particularly important in the light of what the Foreign Secretary said in opening the debate. The theme of his message was the need in international relations to talk. The right hon. Gentleman was quite right. International affairs are primarily concerned at the present time with international negotiations. A number of vitally important negotiations are either in train or about to take place. It is right that we should have the opportunity to participate fully in the consideration of policies that will be put forward on behalf of this country in these various negotiations.
  I have in mind the GATT negotiations, of which the right hon. Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Hugh Fraser) spoke so forcefully. I am in considerable sympathy with his views. There are also the negotiations that will be carried on within the Community about the relationship of the associable countries with the Community. We would like to be able to discuss in detail what form of association and what particular relationship with the Community is apt for each of the countries with which we have such strong historic connections and with whose interests we are so profoundly concerned. We would all like to discuss these matters in a debate of this kind in a meaningful

  1619
  way. But the situation in each country is very different. Countries have their own special problems. For example, the former high commission territories of Southern Africa have peculiar problems involving their relationship within the customs union. On the other hand the problems of the Caribbean are very different. But it is not feasible in a debate of this kind to go into the questions that ought to be examined by hon. Members in fulfilment of Parliament's rôle.
  There is a third set of negotiations in which hon. Members should be involved, in terms of debate. I refer to the conference on the law of the sea. This matter has already been referred to by the hon. Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall), the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, West (Mr. James Johnson) and the hon. Member for Bolton, East (Mr. Laurance Reed) in an intervention. This subject is pre-eminently a matter of importance, in which the views of Members should be expressed in detail in response to the Government's expression of their general thinking about forthcoming negotiations. These matters cannot be fully examined at Question Time.
  It is not possible, in a couple of sentences, to say what is the Government's thinking about the law of the sea conference. It is not even possible to refer to the matter more than cursorily in a Government Front Bench speech of the kind we heard today from the Foreign Secretary. Yet the conference on the law of the sea will be of crucial importance for this country in its many implications in terms of the resources of the sea and the seabed. There is the likelihood of new international agreements on this topic, and this may affect the livelihood of many of our people. Then there are questions of communication links, defence, and many considerations.
  I suggest that it is almost impossible for us, as a House, to fortify or criticise the Government effectively in their foreign affairs policies by the way in which we conduct ourselves.
  Lest it be thought that I have nothing positive or substantive to say on foreign affairs questions, perhaps I may deal with one of the most important matters about which the Foreign Secretary spoke, namely, the situation in Rhodesia. I was interested to hear the underlying optimism
  1620
  in the right hon. Gentleman's remarks which led us to believe that he saw some possibility at least that the Rhodesian Government and the leaders of African opinion in Rhodesia saw increasingly the need to talk to each other before we engage in a dialogue with them. I do not feel entirely confident that that hopefulness is justified.
  I paid a short visit to Rhodesia just over three months ago, and from my discussions there I did not form the impression that there was such a recognition. It would be helpful if the Minister could say a little more about the foundation for the right hon. Gentleman's optimism. That optimism does not seem to be reflected in the behaviour of the Smith régime. It is not reflected in the decision to take into custody without trial a number of leading members of the African National Congress. It does not seem to be reflected in the extraordinary insensitivity to world opinion which led to the imprisonment of Peter Niesewand— though it must be said that one welcomed the response to world opinion in releasing him. Again, that optimism does not seem to be reflected in the slightly cocksure tone of voice adopted by leading members of the Smith régime. Nor is it reflected in the brazen way in which the regime has sought to justify its every action with such crass folly as the closure of the border.
  These matters occurred some weeks ago. I have no doubt that the Minister of State has more up-to-date information. We look forward to hearing in more detail what has changed and what new realisation there is. We notice that it is apparently Mr. Smith's intention to speak in Salisbury himself in a day or two in order to put his gloss on events. We shall have more to go on before the week is out.
  I am sure that the Secretary of State is broadly right in the view which has been supported by a number of my hon. Friends, including my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, West (Mr. Judd), that the only way forward in Rhodesia will come with the recognition by the illegal régime that it must above all have contacts with the leaders of African opinion, especially with the ANC. No settlement will be acceptable within the five principles if there is not that contact

  1621
  and a recognition of their importance in the Rhodesian scene.
  Having made that slight diversion from my general theme, I return to my suggestions to the Government about how we might begin to think about overcoming this problem of Parliament's relative powerlessness in foreign affairs.
  There are a number of minor matters which should be considered. One is the question of Press conferences. There is no doubt that, in the main, members of the Press—especially the diplomatic correspondents—are far better informed about the Government's views on foreign policy than are Members of Parliament. This is as a result of continual informal and in some cases formal briefings. I hope that the Government will give serious thought to the possibility of making sessions of this kind open to Members of Parliament. I recognise that there will be occasions when they wish to make unattributable statements which they do not wish to be known to be the Government's view. But by and large it must be in the interests of democracy that the Government's views on foreign affairs, as on domestic affairs, should be known and fully understood.
  Many of the difficulties that Governments experience in the realms of foreign policy stem from a lack of understanding of the objectives of and the background to action that has been taken. I have the view that it is perhaps not entirely coincidental that over a period of a decade successive Governments came to the view well ahead of public opinion and sometimes at loggerheads with it, about the Common Market. Successive Governments took the view that it was in the interests of Britain to apply for membership. It is at least possible that had all the arguments been made available to the public there would have been a somewhat different attitude taken to the issues involved. In the event the outcome was very different. Parliament was presented with a fait accompli on a number of occasions. Policy changes had to be made without adequate preparation and without any understanding of the background which led to those changes being necessary.
  The same is true of the decision to withdraw from east of Suez. Here
  1622
  again there was a rapid policy change that might conceivably have been more assimilable and might even have come about earlier if Parliament had been able to tease out the strands of thinking that led to the perpetration of our rôle east of Suez.
  My second suggestion is that we should recognise that in order to be properly informed parliamentarians must travel. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Mr. Ogden) spoke of his experience in South Africa and of how he had been taken there by a South African foundation. I have had a similar experience, although I did not draw precisely the same conclusions. But it is desirable that Members of Parliament should not feel beholden to their hosts when they go abroad or in any sense be their creatures when they return. It is highly desirable that Members should be in a position to go abroad to look for themselves, to be informed and to make a proper contribution. This should be regarded as the normal function of Members of Parliament. It must be up to them to decide how much time they can afford to allocate to it. But the financing of it should not exercise them. That can only be done by making available limited public resources for the purpose. There has been some discussion of this matter already. I strongly support the view that resources should be made available for the purpose.
  In much the same way, more use could be made by the Government of the practice that has grown up, but has not been used extensively, of sending Members of Parliament to participate as spectators and on some occasions as spokesmen at international conferences. I believe that to be of great value.
  The prime and overwhelming need is for a specialist committee to be set up to concern itself with foreign affairs generally. There is no substitute for that. We have made a number of tentative steps in this direction, and we can see the success that there has been. We have had the sub-committee of the Expenditure Committee concerning itself with defence and overseas matters. However, that is so predominantly concerned with expenditure matters that it cannot review the underlying policy issues. We have the current experience of the sub-committee on Trade and Industry looking into South African

  1623
  wages. We have had the excellent experience of the Select Committee on Overseas Aid. We hope that that will be a permanent feature of our parliamentary scene, because its impact in educating the public to the needs of the developing world and our responsibility and rôle in meeting, those needs has been of inestimable value.
  We now need a committee to look closely at current negotiations and those which lie ahead. Such a committee will give members of the Government an opportunity to explain the issues and the Government's thinking on them. I know that there are difficulties. Inevitably, international negotiations are a matter of compromise and it will be difficult for the Government to declare their hand in advance of the negotiations. But it will be possible for the Government to spell out what they regard as the country's interests as they see them and the posture which they will adopt when they enter the negotiating chamber. Given information of that kind, Members of Parliament can be behind the Government if they agree and critical of the Government if they disagree. In that way we shall have a more democratic involvement in the process of foreign policy making and in the conduct of our international diplomacy.
  8.0 p.m.
  Mr. Christopher Woodhouse: The hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) has given us food for thought, towards a great deal of which I feel sympathetic. As I listened to his diagnosis, one or two other factors occurred to me. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that the interest and influence of the House in foreign affairs is waning.
  My experience in recent years is that Ministers who reply to debates on foreign affairs seem extraordinarily disinclined to answer anything that hon. Members may put to them in those debates. Another important factor is the enormous complexity and diversity of themes in a foreign affairs debate, which make it extremely difficult to devise any coherence of the kind that the hon. Gentleman and I would welcome.
  The right hon. Member for Caernarvon (Mr. Goronwy Roberts), who opened the debate for the Opposition, made a
  1624
  useful distinction between long-term issues and matters of immediate urgency. As the debate has proceeded, I have had the feeling that many matters of immediate urgency are at the same time issues which will be with us for a long time to come. It is one of these issues to which, with some regret, I return this evening.
  It is a bad habit in the House to repeat oneself, but I find it unavoidable today. I must retrace some of the ground that I covered in our last foreign affairs debate in December last year on the subject of Greece, partly because the situation there has grown not better but worse, and partly because it appeared to me from the Minister of State's winding up speech that he had not taken in a word that I had said.
  When I say that the situation has grown worse, I am not referring merely to the fact that Greece has now become a republic. That involves no real change of power, though I must express my regret that Her Majesty's Government were the first to recognise the new situation. What I have in mind is the increased barbarity of the police State with which we now find ourselves in alliance.
  As any businessman or tourist will confirm, the Greeks in general do not have the air of an oppressed people. This is perfectly true. However, one does not have to probe far beneath the surface to find a sense of profound humiliation—humiliation at the loss of political liberties and at the fact that anyone who, with a democratic intention, seeks to criticise the Government is imprisoned and often tortured.
  I have been chary about making accusations of torture, but today I have irrefutable evidence that it is the practice in the prisons of the Greek military security police. I wish to give one or two examples.
  The right hon. Member for Caernarvon mentioned my friend John Pesmazoglou who, for most of last year, was exiled in a village in Southern Macedonia. Towards the end of the year, he was allowed to return to Athens. In January, when the student troubles began, he was arrested. He was released shortly afterwards and arrested again a few weeks later. He has now been held for many weeks by the military security

  1625
  police without trial and without charge. His only offence is that he was the founder and president of the Society for the Study of Greek Problems. He has also been accused of stimulating student unrest.
  Shortly after he was arrested, another friend of mine, Mrs. Virginia Tsouderos, who was the secretary of the Society for the Study of Greek Problems, was also arrested. Both have since been kept in solitary confinement. They have not, to the best of my knowledge, been physically tortured, but a clear attempt is being made to break their morale. The reason is perfectly obvious: it has proved impossible to frame any charge against them that would stand up in court.
  Mr. Pesmazoglou was recently described to me in a letter from a friend as appearing to be a bent and broken man who walked only with difficulty, whose eyesight was impaired, and who appeared to be suffering from drug injections. The same statement about impaired eyesight was being made of Mrs. Tsouderos, and it has also been made of Mr. Sakis Peponis, the former Director of the National Broadcasting Service.
  In order that the House may be under no misapprehension about the calibre of these people, let me remind hon. Members that Mr. Pesmazoglou is a Professor of Economics at Athens University, was deputy governor of the Bank of Greece, and the sole architect on the Greek side of the Treaty of Association between Greece and the European Economic Community. Virginia Tsouderos is the daughter of the Greek Prime Minister who refused to capitulate to the Nazis in 1941 and took the Government into exile to continue the war on our side.
  These people have not actually been physically tortured so far as I know, but I have an even worse case to mention, which is the first I have known from certain knowledge of actual physical torture by the military security police. This concerns a Wing-Commander Anastasios Minis, who served with me during the war. He was one of the most highly decorated officers in the Greek Royal Air Force, including a British decoration. He was a wartime pilot with the Eighth Army in North Africa. He was a parachutist in occupied Greece under the
  1626
  Nazis, and fought against the Communist rebellion in the post-war years.
  His only real offence was to speak for the defence of a group of air force officers who were tried and convicted of sedition and whose convictions were subsequently quashed, partly on his evidence. His nominal offence, for which he is now in prison, was to let off a number of homemade fireworks, not bombs—what our children on 5th November called "bangers"—by way of demonstration on the arrival of Vice-President Agnew in Athens last year. They did no damage and caused no casualties, because they could not. He admitted the offence, but was tortured to try to implicate others.
  I have his story here—it was smuggled out of prison—and I hope that it will shortly be published in this country. I have no doubt whatever of the genuineness of this story from both internal and external evidence.
  Minis was kept in solitary confinement for 111 days. He was frequently deliberately kept awake all night; he was made to stand at attention for hours on end in a circle one foot in diameter, and was beaten with clubs on his calves, thighs and buttocks if he moved or wavered from the position of attention in that circle. He was kicked in the stomach, kneed in the genitals and beaten on the soles of his feet. When at last he returned from the Greek military security police to a civilian prison, he wrote, "I feel as if I have returned to freedom." Nevertheless, he was sentenced to almost 10 years in gaol for letting off "bangers".
  A somewhat shorter sentence was imposed on his only accomplice, Stephanos Pandelakis, an eminent paediatrician who was trained in this country at Radcliffe Hospital and at London University. I have seen scraps of messages from Minis to his wife and I have confirmation, both directly and indirectly, that those messages are genuine.
  Greece is a far-away country of which many of us know nothing, so I will attempt to translate what is happening there into British terms. I ask the House to imagine a situation in which the Director-General of the BBC, the Deputy Governor of the Bank of England, the Professor of Greek at Cambridge, the Professor of Economics at London University, a Professor of Law at Trinity

  1627
  College, Dublin, an eminent paediatrician from Radcliffe Hospital, a daughter of the late Sir Winston Churchill, half a dozen QCs, dozens of students, and scores of officers are all held in the Tower of London, mostly without trial and without charge.
  I ask the House to imagine a situation in which the Lord Mayor of London, the editors of The Guardian and the Daily Telegraph, the widow of a Nobel Prize winner, Mr. Benjamin Britten, Dame Peggy Ashcroft and half the cultural and intellectual élite of the country have fled abroad into exile. I ask the House to imagine a situation in which the Queen, the Speaker of the House of Commons, the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Lord Chief Justice have all been deprived of their office on the whim of the Government, and a situation in which Harold Macmillan has been placed under house arrest and permanent police surveillance, Mr. Malcolm Macdonald has been charged with treason and driven into exile, and Lord George-Brown is convicted of a criminal offence for holding a cocktail party.
  That sounds funny but that is what is happening. That is an exact parallel with what is happening in Athens.
  Finally, I ask the House to imagine that our allies tell us that all this has nothing to do with them, that they could not intervene, and that they would not even if they could, because it would interfere with their own defence system. Those are exact parallels with the situation in Greece today, and the men who have produced that situation are our allies and they are maintaining it with weapons supplied by the Western Powers.
  Not only are they our allies, but, I am sorry to say, they often enjoy the express approval of Her Majesty's Government. Ministers sometimes express the wish that they would restore democracy. They sometimes even refer to them as an illegal Government, but they hasten to show that they do not really mean it. The slogan is "We cannot interfere", but the fact is that we are interfering all the time, and we are doing so on the side of the dictatorship.
  We are interfering on the side of the dictatorship when we recognise the republic even before there has been a plebiscite
  1628
  to confirm it. We interfere on the side of the dictatorship when Ministers, generals and admirals are photographed in Athens beaming on George Papadopoulos. I am told that our ambassador in Athens has explicitly compared Papadopoulos with de Gaulle, and I do not believe that he did that in order to insult the memory of the French President. Our Chief of Defence Staff a few weeks ago in Athens publicly praised the morale and efficiency of the Greek armed forces. A few weeks later, the Greek navy was in full revolt, but I do not believe that that was the intention either.
  All that is justified on the argument that Greece is essential to NATO, Greece is essential to NATO, but a military dictatorship is not. Let me repeat the warning which I have given in the House before. Although the human material of the Greek armed forces is as good as it has ever been, under their present high command, for purposes of external defences they are of no more use than the French or Italian armies in 1940. Captain Pappas, the officer who recently defected from Greece—a Regular naval officer of 20 years' service—has said explicitly that the defence of NATO's south-east flank has ceased to exist.
  There is another aspect to the NATO context. As the right hon. Member for Caernarvon and others have said, NATO was set up to safeguard freedom in Western Europe. How can we expect the Greeks to accept that in order to safeguard the freedom of Western Europe their own freedom has to be sacrificed?
  I can imagine them saying to us now, "If it was true that you had to put up with the colonels for the sake of NATO, why do you still have to put up with the colonels now that President Nixon and Mr. Brezhnev have decided not to have a war after all?". That is the sort of question that is now being asked, not provocatively and not by Communists, but by our natural friends in Greece—those of them at least who are not in gaol.
  I have here a newspaper which is published in Greek in this country. Although it appears on pink paper, it is a respecable newspaper. Indeed, the paper is bought from the surplus stock of the Financial Times. The paper is published by democratic, royalist and left-wing

  1629
  exiles in this country. They have long despaired of the Americans—and who is to blame them?
  They now say of us:
  "The shameful rôle of being the first to recognise the republic of Papadopoulos before it had even been ratified by the Greek people has fallen to Britain once famous for her parliamentary tradition.…The Greeks have learned once more the falsity of the myth that the words "a gentleman's agreement" originated in aged Albion."
  That is how we are seen now by the Greeks who until recently were our lifelong friends. Now we have an ally who is not only completely undependable today under a military dictatorship, but whose dependability, even if the military dictatorship were removed tomorrow, we are already in the process of undermining ourselves.
  I do not believe that the damage is as yet far-reaching or irremediable. Nevertheless, I think that our policy is not only degrading but counterproductive, and it is not even true that we have no power to do anything about it. We have a powerful lever in the current negotiations for our adherence to the Treaty of Association between Greece and the EEC which the Greek Government desperately need as a preliminary to the further development of the treaty itself. We should have the support of many other members, including the Dutch, Danish and probably the German and Italian Governments, if we were to use that leverage to the utmost.
  I hope that before the debate is over the Minister of State will have something to say on these matters: something much more satisfactory than he said last December—which would not be difficult —and something other than a tape recording from Athens. Otherwise, if the House divides on this matter tomorrow night, I have to warn my right hon. Friend that he will have to count without my vote.
  8.17 p.m.
  Dr. M. S. Miller: I cannot speak of Greece with the great authority of the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Woodhouse) but, like him, I have paid several visits to that unfortunate country and have made some close observations on the spot of what is
  1630
  going on there, and I can corroborate everything that the hon. Gentleman said.
  My most recent visit was earlier this year, when I attended a trial that was a travesty of justice, as most of the trials in that country are. I have a number of friends in Greece and I have no doubt that the treatment meted out to them while they were in prison on the most flimsy of charges was extremely harsh. The position with regard to sentences is a little better than it was at one time, but only four years ago a friend of mine —Pavlos Zannas—received 16 years in prison merely for daring to publish criticism of the Papadopoulos régime.
  I also wish it to be known, as the hon. Gentleman said, that opposition to the régime in Greece is not one of red revolution. The opposition comes from and is supported by intellectuals and both middle and working-class people. The apparent British support of such a brutal regime, which came to power as a result of the overthrow of a freely elected democratic government marks a shameful period in our history. There are those on this side as well as in the Conservative Party who feel that we should be doing more in opposing a regime of this kind.
  I should like to deal now with the situation in British Honduras and British policy towards that country. I have visited the country twice, and both times, travelling around, I got the decided impression that the apparently overwhelming support for the present Prime Minister is not quite as unanimous as would appear from his position in Parliament. When independence is granted to British Honduras—it cannot now be long delayed—will the British Government give that people a guarantee that their sovereignty will be protected from any attempt to infringe it by neighbouring Guatemala?
  I receive regular correspondence and newspapers from British Honduras and I know that there is a growing feeling among a fairly widespread grouping of several parties that there will be an attempt by Guatemala—which the Guatemalans have never denied—to claim sovereignty over British Honduras. Will we give any guarantee on independence?
  The third area about which I wish to speak is the Middle East. When all the foliage is cut through, and when one has

  1631
  disregarded the verbiage, the root of the problem can be seen as the non-acceptance by the Arab States of the existence of the State of Israel. I know that there are differences of opinion in relation to other problems that have developed and are still present but this is the root of the argument.
  The Prime Minister of Israel, Mrs. Golda Meir, said in a recent speech that the Arab refugee problem was the result, not the cause, of the 1948 war, and went on:
  "It is absurd to contend that the present territorial configuration is the cause of the Middle East tension. The heart of the problem is what caused the six-day war, not the territories administered by Israel after the war. Simply put, the root issue is the Arab attitude to Israel's very existence and security, and once the Arab countries accept the legitimacy of Israel, as we have always accepted theirs, there is no reason for their intransigence against negotiating the differences between us. In this connection, let me state as firmly as I can that Israel's insistence on negotiations, direct or indirect, is not a manoeuvre devised to bait our Arab enemies. The vehement refusal of Arab leaders to discuss with us the terms of a possible settlement must raise the question as to whether they are really prepared to live in peace with us. This is the crux of the conflict."
  When Resolution No. 242 is still in the forefront of the minds of the people of this country, the United States and France, it is incumbent on the Government to ensure that it continues to be the basis for a settlement. It is a resolution that has been stated over and over again, and which requires to be discussed; negotiations should take place to secure its implementation.
  I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton (Dr. David Owen) who, in a very percipient speech, talked about the withdrawal of Israeli forces and the evacuation and demilitarisation of Sinai being an excellent starting point for negotiations towards the implementation of Resolution No. 242. When one considers all the problems that seemed at one time completely insoluble, and which attempts have been made to solve—the success of Willy Brandt's Ostpolitik, with a dialogue between East and West Germany which no one would have thought possible a few years ago, a treaty of agreement discussed and signed between North Vietnam and America, bringing in South Vietnam, which also could not have been envisaged a few years ago, and in the face of all the difficulties,
  1632
  some discussions going on about Bangladesh, India and Pakistan—one sees that there are no areas in which negotiation has not taken place and in which some progress has not been made as a result.
  It seems to me, and to many others, that there is no reason why this very delicate area of the Middle East should not fall into the same category as those other areas.
  Every now and then, at indeterminate intervals, we undergo the ritual of a debate on foreign affairs. What emerges—and what has emerged in this debate, to some extent—is that we react to an immediate situation but when that immediacy recedes we relapse into our previous somnolent state.
  I enjoyed the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, West (Mr. Judd). He made a practical suggestion about what we should be doing in debates of this My hon. Friend the Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) also made an excellent suggestion, which I commend, if I may be so bold, to the Foreign Secretary and the Government. My hon. Friend said that the only manner by which we, as the British House of Commons, can have any influence and knowledge of all the intricacies of what is taking place in other parts of the world is to have a specialist committee on foreign affairs. I commend that idea to the Government as worthy of very serious consideration.
  8.32 p.m.
  Lieut-Colonel Colin Mitchell: As a one-man specialist committee on foreign affairs—as I always like to think of myself, and as most hon. Members probably think of themselves in their own way—I should like to think that in this great tour d'horizon which has gone on since half-past three one can pick up some threads. The threads that I should like to pick up are of Europe and the Caribbean.
  Before turning to those two subjects, however, I am bound to say that one could not be anything but impressed by the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford (Mr. Woodhouse) and the hon. Member for Glasgow, Kelvingrove (Dr. Miller) about the situation in Greece. It is terrible to hear these dreadful descriptions of torture and intimidation. If one were objective about this, one could

  1633
  say that they are not as bad as the situation in Ulster. But they are something about which the Government should certainly intervene or make their position known. I am certainly no Byron but I would say that here is a case where we might suggest to the present regime that there are alternatives to its present behaviour.
  It was most interesting to hear the hon. Member for Kingston-upon-Hull, West (Mr. James Johnson) talking about the conference on the law of the sea in terms of the cod war. I have been pressing the Government for many months about that conference in terms of preservation of salmon, which try to breed in my native rivers, the Dee and the Don. We are told every time we go to an international symposium that we shall eventually be saved by the conference on the law of the sea which will take place in South America at some time in the future. We are beginning to determine the date. In Questions I have even begun to determine the British representation. I do not put much faith in much coming out of that conference, as it has been described to me by the Government. Let us hope that that situation improves.
  The subject of the Middle East has been raised. I was sorry and rather saddened to hear one hon. Member of the Opposition talk about the energy gap and the oil which belongs to Arab countries. He did not appreciate how much more vulnerable and isolated this makes Israel. I frighten myself at times thinking in terms of Israel's trying to survive. The acquisition of a military nuclear capability is probably the one thing that Israel must go towards. I shall make no comment on that, nor expect any reply from the Government.
  The right hon. Member for Caernarvon (Mr. Goronwy Roberts) talked about détente. I was most impressed by the sincerity and strength behind his arguments. Most of us who are responsible have followed the moves over the Strategic Arms Limitation Talks and over the talks on mutual and balanced force reductions. If one looks at those matters possibly slightly cynically, from a military viewpoint, one must also realise that at the same time as these excellent diplomatic advances, two other things have happened. The Soviets have
  1634
  built up their missile parity and have made their great maritime expansion. This, from the military point of view, is strategically frightening, and probably explains why people like myself sometimes regard détente as a Trojan horse. Now is not the time—it might be done better in a defence debate—to discuss the implications of that in terms of a United States withdrawal from Europe.
  I want to talk about Europe, in the sense that I am always trying to hang a label on what Europe means in terms of Britain. Europe can be regarded as a world Power. In many cases this was what sold British entry into the Common Market to the British people. This implies the existence of a European political entity—something that is unified politically to point the way and which is able to conduct foreign policy in areas far removed from its own frontiers. That would imply that there was a collective mind on situations like Vietnam or Rhodesia, or arms to South Africa, or French atomic tests in the Pacific. I believe that this rôle may be only that of the honest broker or the candid friend, and probably a rather ungrateful rôle for Europe.
  A world Power economically, which is what many people talk about Europe as being, has great global repercussions which, I suspect from the great movements going on between my Whips and those on the other side, has nothing to do with a debate on foreign affairs. The only thing more difficult than a debate on foreign affairs is a debate on defence policy.
  The position now, if Europe is a world Power, is that Russia deals at the top only with the United States of America; and that is where real global power resides. Therefore, a true global rôle for Europe is impossible. I have always argued that we are faced with a pseudo-global rôle in the way we have been talking tonight.
  The emergence of a truly independent and authentically European foreign policy would be dangerous to the balance of power. This would exacerbate Russian posture, even though the Chinese might like to see it happen. I do not know whether the Japanese would like to see it happen, because I am no expert on Japan relationships. However, in the next five years this surely is

  1635
  the most important thing we need to know about.
  Another alternative for Europe is that as a neutral Power it is faced with pursuing a policy analogous to that of the neutrals—Switzerland and Sweden—where we would exercise little political influence outside our own borders. However, we have a compensating feeling for the lack of power by a zealous assertion of moral values in international affairs—something of which both sides of the House are guilty. This is a policy of weakness compensating for the minor rôle by political agreement, which is obtainable only in terms of negatives.
  This would allow an increase in world trade—many on both sides have fought for this for many years—if politics did not stand in the way of big business. This is appropriate to a situation in which the United States agrees with Russia over military détente and no military umbrella is available in Europe. I hope that this is a power vacuum which will not arise in our lifetime, although it might.
  Finally, it can be said that Europe can be viewed as a regional Power. This is a middle course, in which Europe is effective in black Africa, in the Mediterranean, and perhaps in the Arab States—if one does not look for the Israeli overtones—to look only towards the oil situation, and where Eastern Europe is something which we can influence provided we have a modus vivendi with the Soviet.
  Perhaps this is the most realistic alternative of all those I have described. It is an easy transition from national to supranational policies, although those hon. Members who know my views will appreciate that I am basically a sub-national politician. It is affected by other factors, the nature and progress of European integration and the United States and Soviet Foreign policies being the greatest of all. Above all, in terms of Europe as a regional Power, the choices for Europe are governed by Anglo-French nuclear agreement.
  In the short time that I want to take up in a very important debate, I turn finally to the question of the Bahamas. I returned last week from a visit to Abaco, and I should like to tell the House in my own simple words what I felt. Those who wish the island to remain a dependent Crown colony have
  1636
  a direct precedent for such action. The population of the Turks and Caicos Islands, which physically appear part of the Bahamas, is about 6,000, exactly the same as Abaco's. Yet in 1959, when Jamaica was granted independence, the Turks and Caicos Islands were granted Crown colony status after its people petitioned against independence.
  The islands were placed under the Government of the Bahamas as long ago as 1799, and were granted a separate charter in 1848. In 1873 they were annexed to Jamaica as a dependency at the request of the island's inhabitants. An administrator was appointed, reporting to the Governor of Jamaica, together with a legislative assembly and an executive council to advise the administrator. Since Jamaica's independence the Governor of the Bahamas has also acted as Governor of the Turks and Caicos Islands.
  I am only stating this for what it is worth, because I know that nothing will change the Government's decision between now and 10th July, but it is nice to be able to put it on the record. It is an alternative that no one has so far suggested.
  There are two solutions to Abaco's problem. The first is that the island should be allowed some freedom of choice, as was accorded to the Turks and Caicos Islands in 1959, and be permitted to opt for Crown colony status. The second is that Abaco should be invited to link with the Turks and Caicos Islands from the administrative point of view. It may be said that Abaco is too far from Grand Turk. I will overtake that question, which I am sure some hon. Member would have asked, by saying that Grand Turk is a long way from both New Providence, within which Nassau lies, and Jamaica, both of which were its seat of government when communications were far less sophisticated than they are today.
  That is all I can say about the Bahamian situation and Abaco. At vast personal expense I went to see the situation and tried to do something about it. All I could say to the 3,000-plus white people was "For goodness' sake don't resort to violence. Go for what you want through the normal constitutional procedures." I told them to be like the Scottish Nationalist Party—he is not here tonight—and just go on plugging away

  1637
  for their independence. I told them that they would get a fair deal, that we in this House would ensure that in the long term they got fair play.
  8.43 p.m.
  Mr. Tam Dalyell: Those who have sat through the whole debate deserve to be heard, and therefore I shall be very brief.
  I should like to raise three issues. The first is West Africa. I cut short what I had hoped to say, simply asking the Minister for Overseas Development whether he has anything to add to the long Written Answer he gave me on Wednesday 13th June. The figures of £1·2 million and £435,000 seem to many of us to be inadequate, given the crisis situation. We hope that tonight the right hon. Gentleman will have a great deal to add to the answers he gave in good faith on that occasion.
  The second issue I wish to raise is the politics of oil. Again, I shall cut a great deal of what I might have said, simply asking what study the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is making of the effects on this country when the United States, having been a net producer of oil, becomes a net importer in a big way. This is a major change in world affairs. I claim no originality for the remark. But if I were adviser to Saudi Arabia or some other country in the Middle East perhaps my economic advice would be to reduce the supply of oil from that country or those countries. This has to be faced: they may cork up some of the oil.
  So what I would ask for is serious discussion with the oil-producing countries on their medium-term plans. The Foreign Office is a powerful Department and I think it also has an interest in nuclear policy and other forms of energy policy. This is an argument which could be made at much greater length and more convincingly and I hope that I shall be acquitted of sloppiness because I put it so quickly, but the meaning is quite clear.
  The third issue I wish to turn to is that of the French nuclear tests. I think that I am perhaps in a position, if I speak briefly, to make a kind of moral bargain with the Government—if I put these questions briefly, one of the right
  1638
  hon. Friends of the Minister may do me the courtesy of replying to concise questions, not tonight, but tomorrow in the opening speech when the debate is resumed. That seems to me to be a reasonable request.
  The first question is whether we may tomorrow hear some kind of coherent argument from the Government as to their attitude to the ruling of the International Court at The Hague. It seems as though this country at the moment is trying to have it both ways, for on Iceland we say, "The International Court is sacrosanct" but in relation to the French nuclear tests the attitude is more muted. That is the first question I ask—on the Government's response to the International Court.
  The second question is whether we could be told anything of the discussions which have taken place with Australia and New Zealand. Certainly Hugh Watt when he was over here, and indeed the Australian High Commissioner, in long meetings some of us had with them, expressed in various ways their deep disappointment, their sadness, at the attitude of our Government here. They referred—in muted terms—to what happened in the Second World War and they said, "Now that you are a member of the European Economic Community, and we are not criticising you for that, we think that for the sake of old Commonwealth ties and for the sake of history and of two world wars, you are in a position to influence your new partner, France, and that you might have made some more stubborn effort to do so". To some of us, this cuts deep. So my question is about what discussions have taken place with the Australians and the New Zealanders. It would seem to me that that is a matter which cannot simply be answered by saying that it is all confidential.
  My third question is equally specific and it relates to the Foreign Secretary's answer today when I interrupted him and he said, very nicely and rather sadly and rather resignedly, "This is a question which must be addressed to many other people". I am not going to make a cheap remark about that, but the fact is that this is an issue for him and the Prime Minister, and that the Foreign Secretary should reply in those words to an interruption, saying, "That must be addressed to many other people"—and

  1639
  that can be checked with the OFFICIAL REPORT—needs some explaining.
  So also does the Foreign Secretary's further remark that the French are quite capable of making decisions for themselves. That seems to be passing by on the other side of the road in a way that does not befit a British Foreign Secretary in the Community of the Nine about which he spoke so glowingly.
  My fourth and last question is one often answered by the Minister, the right hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Amery). This is about the scientific evidence available about the level of radioactivity. I hope that tomorrow we shall be given as detailed a report as possible as to the views of the two scientists in the Pitcairn Islands and what they are actually doing and what their terms of reference are. I am a great defender of the Foreign Office in what it has done in China—Chinese tests are no better than French tests—and I do not sneer at the Foreign Office, but on this subject of scientific advice over the past months the advice which has been given to Ministers has been far too complacent. When double Nobel prize winners such as Dr. Linus Pauling can express doubts, and many other reputable scientists of many nations, it would seem that the British Foreign Office's attitude is unbecoming. I should like to be told the level of advice which Ministers are receiving. I do not think that they should be happy about it.
  I have put these questions gently and concisely and I hope, because I have taken a short time, that they will be answered tomorrow.
  8.51 p.m.
  Mr. Laurance Reed: I have been fulsomely praised and attacked about my view on the Icelandic fisheries dispute. I propose to say nothing about that, because time will not permit. I suggest that it is a subject of sufficient importance, particularly in the context of the law of the sea conference, for the Government to find time to have a full-scale debate on the matter.
  I shall say something about the French nuclear tests because I am mindful of my experience in 1957 of attending the British thermonuclear tests on Christmas Island. During that series we exploded three bombs. They were all above one
  1640
  megaton. On each occasion I was within less than 25 miles of the detonation. Within a short time of the detonations—to the best of my recollection it was certainly no more than four hours—I landed on the island and saw something of the devastation. There was found to be so little evidence of radiation that it was possible to play a game of cricket and to swim within one mile of ground zero.
  At those tests there were two New Zealand frigates. They were not there in protest but in participation. When I asked a New Zealand scientist on one of those ships whether there was any anguish in New Zealand and whether there was any concern about radiation hazards from the tests, he replied that the New Zealand Government felt that such high air tests could be carried out with absolute safety.
  All that is a long time ago and we know much more today about long-term radiation hazards. I do not think that it is wise to found a case on a subject on which many eminent experts are in total disagreement. However, on moral grounds I should have thought that the case was unchallengeable for condemning the French action, especially as the bulk of nations have signed the test ban treaty, and even more so now that the International Court has made a judgment on the matter.
  Earlier in the debate I had an altercation with the right hon. Member for Caernarvon (Mr. Goronwy Roberts). He misunderstood what I said. It seems to be sheer humbug for anybody to send gunboats to Iceland to uphold a judgment of the International Court and to remain dumb and silent about another judgment by the same court on a different case.
  The only interpretation which I can put upon such actions is that on the one hand the Government are saying that, because we are a party to a dispute, we will intervene and, on the other hand, they say that because we are not a party to the other dispute, it has nothing to do with us. I believe that it is not for parties to a dispute about international law to try to enforce the judgment of a court or to secure compliance with it. It is for the international community as a whole to try to bring about such action. Of course Britain is an important component in the international community, and

  1641
  for that very reason we should be condemning the action taken by France.
  8.55 p.m.
  Mr. Iain Sproat: I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton, East (Mr. Laurance Reed) and to the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) for being so succinct and giving me a chance to speak, albeit briefly.
  I wish to direct my remarks solely towards the conference on security and co-operation in Europe, a subject that so far has been strangely under-discussed, although it now seems that greater realisation of its importance is coming about. Because of the shortage of time, I shall have to speak in laconic almost paragraphic heading terms.
  I congratulate our negotiators, in conjunction with our allies, at the conference on the excellent work they have done. I do not say that as a bromide. Anyone who reads the draft final recommendations of the conference sees that our negotiators actually got the Russians, who had been strongly reluctant to do so, to agree to discuss, according to the passage on "human contacts",
  "contacts and regular meetings on a basis of family ties; reunification of families; marriage between nationals of different States;
  "travel for personal or professional reasons; improvement of conditions for tourism, on an individual or collective basis."
  Perhaps even more astonishing is that we have got them to agree to discuss
  "improving the circulation of, and access to oral, printed, filmed and broadcast information and extending the exchange of information;
  encouraging co-operation in these fields of information on a basis of short or long term agreements;
  improving conditions under which journalists from one participating State exercise their profession in another participating State."
  That is a considerable distance down the road, and I congratulate our negotiators and those of our allies on achieving it.
  I was glad to see the degree of unity that has prevailed between our allies in the EEC and our allies in NATO—where they did not overlap—in achieving a unity of policy towrds the Warsaw Pact countries in the conference. The next stage of the conference begins on 3rd July. It is vital that we should adopt a realistic
  1642
  attitude towards the next stage. I would define "realism"—others no doubt have different views—as being somewhere between the euphoria bandied about by certain of the Warsaw Pact embassies in London and the rather depressing attitude taken by my hon. Friend the Member for Buckingham (Mr. Benyon), who saw nothing but evil coming out of the conference.
  It is a good and appropriate time to examine the Soviet aims as at least a stepping stone towards understanding the reality of what we are doing. My hon. Friend the Member for Abingdon (Mr. Neave) mentioned an interesting article in The Economist this week. I shall not quote it again, but I draw the attention of the House to a statement quoted in it. It reminds us that only last July Mr. Brezhnev said—and it is interesting to recall it in the light of what we have been told about the cold war being over—
  "We must be ready to see the struggle intensify."
  He added that they must be ready to see, "an even sharper antagonism." He was referring, if one might over-simplify, to the two sides.
  I say with sorrow that nothing I have seen so far at Helsinki, where I was recently, is incompatible with the theory that the prime Soviet aim in the pursuit of détente is no true détente but the altering of the balance of power in Russia's own favour.
  The prime aim remains to divide and to weaken the West—that is, both the Nine and NATO—to stabilise the Eastern European frontiers, to legitimate the situation there and to consolidate the Soviet hold over the countries of Eastern Europe, and to reduce the risk for the Soviet Union in Europe in the light of Russia's considerable and, indeed, growing technical and consumer difficulties within the country, its own growing and vociferous ethnic tendencies, and the Red Chinese threat on the eastern borders.
  Otherwise, it is not really possible to explain the great divergence between all the Soviet words on détente and nearly all the Soviet actions on détente. Soviet actions are almost diametrically the reverse of Soviet words on this subject.

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  Only one example is needed to prove this. Since the talks on mutual and balanced force reductions were first proposed in 1968 the Warsaw Pact has increased its military spending by 5 per cent. in each succeeding year. On the other hand, NATO has cut such spending. There could not be a more clear-cut example of the difference between Soviet actions and words.
  It is interesting to compare what the Soviets have just put their name to at the preparatory talks for the CSCE—the principles on which they are prepared to base their international policy—with some of their acts. The Soviet Union has now agreed to acknowledge sovereign equality and respect for the rights inherent in sovereignty; it has agreed to refrain from the threat or use of force, to respect the inviolability of frontiers and the territorial integrity of States, and to accept peaceful settlements of disputes and non-intervention in the internal affairs of other States.
  I should be interested to know how anyone in the House, or Mr. Brezhnev, can reconcile that with the doctrine of the rights of the Soviet Union to interfere as it did in Czechoslovakia in 1968. Does this mean that Mr. Brezhnev can never contemplate another such action? That is not an academic question—certainly not to a Yugoslav, with President Tito's departure not far away. Such a person must be wondering what will happen—whether the Soviet Union will take the attitude it took in 1968 or will abide by the principles that I have mentioned. Or is it that the two are irreconcilable and the first is mere hypocrisy?
  I was hoping to demonstrate that it was not just a question of military incompatibility between Soviet words and action, and to show that that incompatibility was not confined to the Soviet Union. If we consider practically every one of the Warsaw Pact countries it will be seen that internally there has been a tightening of the screw. I mention only one country—Czechoslovakia. I do not believe that a single appointment that was made to Czech television during the days of Mr. Dubcek continues today. In 1970, 40,000 people in Czechoslovakia lost their jobs for "political reasons".
  Even Poland, which. by some standards of the Warsaw Pact, is fairly free, recently issued an official statement that said that
  1644
  only those close to the Communist Party would be allowed to hold jobs in radio and journalism, I believe that practically every academic in Poland who showed any inclination to be anti-Russian has now been removed from his post There is a serious divide between the words and the actions of all Warsaw Pact countries on this point.
  None the less, I do not believe that the picture is totally bleak. The conference on security and co-operation in Europe will give the countries of Eastern Europe the chance to make their individual contributions. It would be fatal for this country or our allies to go to the conference with a bloc mentality. I hope that we shall not do so. I have long believed that coming out of this conference there would be some form of continuing machinery that we could support. I said so in the last debate. I suggest that if the Soviet Union is really interested, as it says, in seeing continuing machinery come out of this conference, one very good job for such machinery would be the monitoring of the third section, namely, the human contacts section. Some form of permanent organisation could be set up to see how both sides keep to the exchange and freer flow of individuals and information.
  I do not share the pessimism of some of my hon. Friends about this conference. Although most of us agree that Soviet aims have been to extend their power, the results may be very different, and in 10 or more years the long-time pursuit of this aim by the Soviet Union may prove to be a blunder of immense magnitude. In so far as it started out to weaken the West and to consolidate its hold on Eastern Europe, it has succeeded in uniting the West to a great extent, both in NATO and in the EEC, and what has happened in the third section of the CSCE discussions, namely, closer contacts and a freer flow of information, has sown the seeds that will ultimately loosen its hold on Eastern Europe.
  9.5 p.m.
  Mrs. Judith Hart: Despite the fact that this has been a thinly attended debate, the first day of it has been one of the best foreign affairs debates that I remember. We have heard some extremely good and interesting speeches from both sides of the House. I am sure that this trend will carry over to

  1645
  tomorrow, as will two or three of the subjects which have been discussed today—for example, the European security conference to which the hon. Member for Aberdeen, South (Mr. Sproat) referred. I do not intend to discuss those matters.
  I wish to deal first with the drought situation in West Africa and India and the way in which Britain can help and is helping; then with what has been said in a number of speeches about Portugal, Greece and Turkey; and, finally, with the other major question confronting us in terms of the European Community and of the Commonwealth developing countries as we enter upon the Yaounde negotiations and the trade negotiations which are to follow later in the autumn.
  I much welcome what the Government have indicated they are likely to do in helping to deal with the drought situation in West Africa. Like my hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell), I hope that we shall hear more about the stage that that help has reached and what immediate prospects there are of a British Government contribution in terms of transport, goods and money.
  We must understand the long-term problem thrown up by both crisis situations. It takes two forms. One concerns the need for effective international action on food stocks, particularly grain stocks. Here the prospects look very sad. Dr. Boerma, Director-General of the Food and Agriculture Organisation, has been trying to take some initiative in ensuring that international stocks of grain are built up so that they are available when a crisis of this kind arises. However, we know what is happening as a result of the United States action on grain. The prospects do not look bright.
  I hope that the Government are taking strong initiatives through our representatives at the FAO and in the United Nations development programme, because it is clear to me that the eminently necessary proposal to create stocks of grain which are available for use in times of crisis will see the light of day only if enough Governments put on the pressure. I hope that our Government will do that.
  The second long-term and much more far-reaching question concerns the prevention of crisis of this kind. This is a matter of providing essentially controlled water supplies. In the dry areas of India
  1646
  and Africa there is total reliance on climatic rainfall. Sometimes it does not come at all, or, when it does come, it ruins the seed crops and the situation is unstable because there is no controlled irrigation.
  In the past, the problem has always been that the rich countries said that there was not much they could do about it because the expenditure needed for sinking tube wells, cutting canals and doing all that was necessary for the control of irrigation was a matter of local costs. They said that there was no need for enormous capital equipment from abroad, that it was difficult for aid to cover local costs and that they could not do it. Very little donor aid is directly concerned with irrigating the dry areas of the world. Yet 70 per cent. of the world's poor live on the land and probably two-thirds of those in the dry areas.
  We have to seek both an international and a bilateral solution. We have to overcome the problem of local costs so that priority can be given in the long term to this as the primary requirement in aid policies to countries in which there are areas with no controlled irrigation.
  I have one specific comment on the Indian drought in Maharashtra and elsewhere. So far, there have been only brief exchanges at Question Time, apart from correspondence between myself and other hon. Members and the Minister. The Minister has not fully understood the point I was trying to make in Question Time a week or two ago.
  I accuse the Minister of being a little insensitive on the Indian problem. I do not mean that he is in the least insensitive to the desperate crisis that the Indian Government are trying to meet. I am sorry to say this, because on many occasions the right hon. Gentleman has shown great sensitivity, particularly in dealing with Bangladesh a year or two ago. He has been insensitive in allowing himself to get caught up in a diplomatic minuet from which he has been unable to escape.
  Of course it is true that the Indian Government have a massive programme of their own and that whatever comes in from outside, whether from Governments or voluntary agencies, is only the merest trickle along the margin of what the Indian Government are doing. It is equally true that the Indian Government

  1647
  will not go round with a begging bowl, as they did in the 1966–67 Bihar famine, because they do not find it an enjoyable experience. Hence, they say, "No, we will not ask".
  The attitude of the Indian High Commission in London is extremely clear. It is that if Britain as a friend of India were to go through the diplomatic dances and say that we should like to offer food grain, tube wells or drilling rigs, the offer would be infinitely appreciated by India. It is a pity that the Minister is so caught up in the situation that he cannot do this.
  The suggestion that, if the Indians would like it that way, part of the existing aid programme could be diverted for this purpose was unfortunate and the Indian reaction to it would be unfavourable. I am sorry to have said all this, because our record in helping in disasters has been good. It is a pity that the Minister has not been able to find a response to the sincere wish in Britain to do something to help, even if it is not very much.
  I turn to what has been said about Portugal and Southern Africa. I was interested in the Foreign Secretary's use of words. We are talking, as my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, West (Mr. Judd) pointed out in an excellent speech, about the logic of the alliance with Turkey, with Greece and with Portugal—and with the extra dimension added in the case of Portugal in terms of the southern Africa situation and the colonial wars in Africa.
  The Foreign Secretary said—I think that I quote his words correctly—that foreign policy and defence are too important to be the subject of emotion about internal politics. If the Foreign Secretary is walking down the street and sees a young man being beaten up, he may well have emotions. He may be angry or sympathetic, but he will surely also have an intellectual moral reaction. It is that moral judgment which gives rise to the emotion, the anger, or the sympathy. Is he saying that morality and moral judgments have no part to play in foreign policy? Some people have said so, and indeed for many centuries it was accepted that European foreign policy was determined in terms of amoral self-interest. It is only compartively recently
  1648
  that morality has been allowed to enter into politics.
  I am certain that the Foreign Secretary is not saying that moral judgment should be excluded from foreign policy, because he believes in the purposes of NATO and that NATO's intention and purpose is to preserve freedom and to extend democracy. Those are highly moral and emotional words. I use the word "moral" in that context, whereas the right hon. Gentleman would use the word "emotional". The word "freedom" is, in a sense, an emotional word, as is the word "democracy". The Foreign Secretary clearly takes the view that it is an emotional word, because he accepts what NATO exercises are all about. He has demonstrated in the case of Bangladesh how ready he is to allow judgments and emotion to enter into his own conduct at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.
  Where is the logic—not the emotion—in the Foreign Secretary's position on the matter of the 600th anniversary of the Portuguese alliance? With NATO claiming to be a defender of freedom, with the Government insisting that this is so in the knowledge that NATO weapons are used in the colonial wars in Africa, where does the logic lie in saying, "We want to take no notice of these things in our relations with Portugal"? This is to say nothing of the situation within Portugal where four-tenths of the people are illiterate and poor. One reason for the colonial war in Africa being tolerated in Portugal is that at least it means that soldiers who fight there bring one little bit of income into peasant families in Portugal.
  With almost half Portugal's budget being spent on fighting its colonial war, why should Her Majesty's Government support with such joy and acclamation the Duke of Edinburgh's visit to Portugal and the bringing to London of Mr. Caetano? We do not believe the Government should have taken such action. We believe that until there is a change of situation, Portugal should be suspended from NATO. We do not think that Portuguese membership is in line with the purposes and the rôle of NATO. We believe that the events associated with the celebrations should be stayed away from by all self-respecting people and that direct humanitarian

  1649
  help should go to the liberation movements struggling in the colonial war.
  The hon. Member for Haltemprice (Mr. Wall) is now absent from the Chamber. I am sorry that he is not here, because I wanted to make a brief comment, not so much about what he said in his speech, but about the attitude which he revealed, an attitude which one or two Conservative Members occasionally reveal. The hon. Member for Haltemprice pointed to the elections in Mozambique and Angola; he also pointed to excellent race relations and so on. But those were precisely the sort of things that were being said in the 1930s about our own colonial policies.
  We were saying what a splendid colonial record we had and asking what, therefore, was wrong with colonialism. We were saying what wonderful administrations we had in Africa and asking why, therefore, people like Kenyatta, Hastings Banda and other liberation leaders in our own colonies should seek to liberate them. It is an extraordinary throwback and a total failure to understand the principles of liberation and what colonial freedom is about, quite apart from what colonialism is about.
  Sir Alec Douglas-Home: I dislike intensely the Soviet Union's policy towards Jews, yet I feel on balance, because of the international requirements of peace and co-existence, that we have to have contacts with the Soviet Union and that we have to try to create constructive co-existence with the Soviet Union.
  I do not like the Greek Government. Although I will tell the Greek Government that I do not like their policies, here is a flank of NATO exposed. I am not prepared to expose the security of Western Europe in the south-east corner of the Mediterranean or the NATO seaboard of Portugal. They are essential to the physical security of Western Europe.
  Therefore, we have to judge these matters carefully. Of course there is a moral content in foreign policy. Nevertheless, we have to take account of the physical security of a continent under threat. Therefore, this is a nice consideration of balance. Moral content comes into it, but so does the physical security of Western Europe.
  Mrs. Hart: I take the right hon. Gentleman's point. My first comment is that we are not in a military alliance with the Soviet Union. Of course we work for co-existence with the Soviet Union, but we have no military alliance. Secondly, when the right hon. Gentleman says that we must protect the physical security of Western Europe, we know how important are the Cape Verde Islands to NATO defences and, therefore, why it is that so many of the countries of Western Europe are anxious that the battle for liberation in Guinea is not won, as seems likely it may be in the next two or three years.
  What is the security element if included in it are people who themselves are a threat to democracy and freedom? I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman has clarified the situation. But the Opposition beg to differ, and we hold our position strongly.
  I turn to the EEC and to aid and trade. Here we are concerned with the interrelationship of four elements—the associables and the non-associables and the aid and trade positions of both.
  Three major policy issues arise and will be with us over the next few months. It is difficult because the Government, in entering into negotiations, can tell us little. All that they can do is to listen to us, and we can only hope that what we say will be taken seriously.
  The effect of going into the European Development Fund and making our contribution to it, as the Minister himself has made clear, will be that the increase in our own aid programme will bear the cost of the contribution to the European Development Fund. Therefore, there will be no loss of aid to any other present recipient. Equally, there will not be the increase in aid to other countries which might have taken place if we had not had to contribute to the fund.
  We must look, therefore, at the recipients of EDF aid. This is the crux of the matter. I remember giving the figures about a year ago when we were debating the European Communities Bill. I give one set again. According to the Development Assistance Committee of OECD, which is the European collator of all these international figures, out of 184 million dollars distributed in the period 1968–70, 108 million went to the French franc area, mainly to countries south of

  1651
  the Sahara. Another 5·5 million dollars went to India and Pakistan. It is not clear whether that was food aid or other aid, but it counted in terms of the DAC figures. To other Commonwealth countries went 600,000 dollars. The rest went in little bits and pieces here and there.
  Let us look at this imbalance that we must seek to correct. India and Pakistan alone have 650 million people, yet they had this fractional proportion from the EDF budget. There is nothing terribly wrong with that, since the EEC throughout has had the dominant influence in matters concerning aid. It is natural that France should seek to have the EDF budget geared particularly to her ex-colonies and direct departmentes d'outre mer so we should not be surprised.
  But now we enter, and it is the Community of the Nine. There are the associables, whatever decision some of them may make about whether they wish to be associated, which are Commonwealth countries in parts of the world other than Africa, as well as countries in Africa. Clearly, we need to be certain that the balance of the budget is substantially changed.
  It will be an uphill task. It will not be easy for the Government so to tilt the balance that it remotely resembles justice to the developing countries linked with the member countries of the EEC. However, that must be the task. I should like to know whether the Government confirm that that is the objective. Of course, they cannot say how, but unless they can confirm that they are clear in their mind that nothing less than a considerable tilting of the balance would safely preserve the interests of Commonwealth countries, we shall be disappointed.
  I come now to trade matters. Two further questions arise here. One concerns the generalised preference scheme, which I understand will be coming under negotiation soon, and probably the negotiations will be meaningful shortly. We know that we are up against a tough proposition here, because our generalised preference scheme, as everybody agrees, is better, flexible and more favourable to the member countries of the Commonwealth, particularly those in Asia, than is the Community generalised preference scheme. Yet there must be harmonisation
  1652
  between the two, and it must take place by 1st January 1974.
  We come up against the conflict of interest between the basic tariff protection philosophy of the Community and the need to open up markets and lower tariffs if the developing countries all over the world, not just the Francophone and Commonwealth countries, especially in Asia, are, as my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth, West said, to build on their own resources so that they do not have to rely on charity or remain poor. They want to earn their own way forward. They cannot do that unless the rich world buys more of what they make. In terms of primary and semi-processed and semi-manufactured products and goods, the EEC is very tough indeed. So, if we hope to change the attitude of the Community, we have a big tussle on our hands. I do not underestimate the task before the Government.
  On both these major issues under negotiation the potential victims are the same people—mainly, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, the poorest and the largest of the developing countries in the world and certainly in the Commonwealth. It hits those countries from both directions. They are not rescued in one way and suffering in another; they are attacked in both ways.
  The third major question is on CAP itself. I should like some clarification from the Government on this subject. The discussions that are going on at the moment, of which we have been seeing Press reports, seem still to be centred on compensatory finance rather than greater access to markets. On the question of greater access to markets, there are certain important elements of the CAP itself that will have to be considered. This is particularly true in terms of sugar, because the sugar-producing countries are much less interested in compensatory finance than in being able to sell more, because by selling more they create more employment, which in turn generates growth. It will not be enough for those interests that we seek to protect to have arrangements for compensatory finance, and it means that once again tough negotiations will have to take place on some of the most sensitive areas of the CAP.
  I hope that we can be told a lot this evening that will be helpful to us, and that anything that requires rather longer

  1653
  and more thoughtful answers will be dealt with tomorrow. These issues will be with us for a long time. The poverty of the developing countries will not go away because we do not look at it.
  9.31 p.m.
  The Minister for Overseas Development (Mr. Richard Wood): I should like, first, to apologise for my late arrival in the debate, for which I have asked and, I am glad to say, received the forgiveness of the right hon. Member for Caernarvon (Mr. Goronwy Roberts) whose speech I missed.
  I welcome the opportunity tonight to say something about our aid programme and about the whole question of overseas aid. A number of important points that have been raised in the debate have been noted by my two right hon. Friends who will speak in tomorrow's debate, but before I begin to discuss the general aspects of the aid programme I should like to deal with what I think the right hon. Gentleman referred to as the immediate issue of the suffering that has been mentioned by the right hon. Member for Lanark (Mrs. Hart) and others in those parts of India and Africa that have been gravely affected by the lack of rain.
  I propose to deal first with the West African drought. As hon. Members know, the countries affected are Senegal, Chad, Mali, Mauretania, Niger and the Upper Volta. As was said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Hugh Fraser), and the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) who showed an interest in this matter, this has been a critical problem in those countries for a number of years, but it was only at the beginning of this year that they appealed for international help.
  It is an area with which Britain is not particularly familiar, or with which we have close ties. In the early stages of this crisis we had no reliable immediate information about the conditions, and we had to rely mainly on reports from the international agencies. It therefore seemed to us that the most effective way for Britain to help was to supply aid through the multilateral bodies. We responded quickly to the appeal of the Director-General of the FAO, with a contribution of £300,000 to his Sahelian Zone Trust Fund. The money was paid promptly to
  1654
  the fund for uses which the Director-General adjudged best.
  Meanwhile, the British Government, as a member of the European Community, are playing a full part in the relief efforts that the Community is making. The British share of the cost is likely to be more than £500,000. Substantial relief measures are already being considered by the World Food Programme to which Britain is contributing more than £1 million this year.
  Reports of the situation in the countries concerned tend to be conflicting, but there seems to be an urgent need to provide air transport to certain areas, and other members of the Community are either contemplating or beginning to carry out that task. Members of the Community in general were urged to do this at the special EEC Food Aid Meeting in Brussels about 10 days ago, at which my Department was represented.
  Requests have recently been made by the FAO to airlift food into the areas most severely affected. As I said in answer to a Question last week, we have therefore sent a reconnaissance team of the Royal Air Force to West Africa to examine the requirements on the spot and to look at the problems of providing air transport for this task. The team left last Friday, and it is expected to report shortly. Meanwhile, in anticipation, preliminary arrangements are being made for the provision of three Hercules aircraft.
  The right hon. Lady, in particular, spoke of the long-term needs in this area. We have made it clear that we are willing to co-operate with other donors and with international organisations to consider provision of assistance in the longer term. The United Nations Secretary-General has called a meeting in Geneva, for late this week, to discuss this, and we shall be represented.
  The right hon. Lady made the perfectly valid point that the long-term treatment of this kind of situation required the provision of secure water supplies, irrigation and so on. The problem of local costs, although it no doubt worried the right hon. Lady when she was in my office, as it has worried me, has gradually been more flexibly treated over the years. We are in many cases now willing to make greater provision than we made in

  1655
  the past for local costs of projects of this kind.
  Also, it is possible to make significant contributions to agricultural development through projects that do not have a substantial offshore procurement content. The right hon. Lady will remember, as I certainly do, the question of the setting up of the fertiliser plants in India, which will be very important in the long-term development of Indian agriculture.
  The share of bilateral project commitments that is now going to agriculture increased considerably between 1970 and 1971. It was 4 per cent. and over 17 per cent. in those two years, respectively. This is all relevant to tackling the longer-term situation, which will no doubt exist for a number of years in places like West Africa and India. Meanwhile, for some years this country has had small aid programmes in the countries that we are now discussing. These, admittedly, at the moment include small water projects and, together with the efforts of other donors, we intend to continue these development programmes.
  Both the right hon. Lady and the right hon. Member for Caernarvon have several times mentioned the international treatment of disaster relief. This is very important. As the House knows, we supported the establishment in 1972 of the office of the United Nations Disaster Relief Co-ordinator in Geneva, financed by the United Nations budget, to which we are a major contributor. The functions of the co-ordinator are, broadly, to encourage planning before disasters take place, to collect information about relief requirements, to act as a clearing house, to balance or compare the needs that may arise with the supplies and services which may be available to meet them, to establish the stocks or help or services that donors and other organisations can provide, and to study the problems of natural phenomena in order to try to forestall disasters. The essence of a disaster is that it is largely unexpected. Disasters occur in very different parts of the world, and they are of very different kinds and need different treatment. Therefore, while we give every support to the work of the co-ordinator, it world be unwise to expect that this will be the total answer to all the kinds of problem that we have
  1656
  been meeting and will be meeting no doubt in the future.
  Coming to India, there is a great deal of concern in this country, as has been shown recently in the Press, about the problems which India has faced because of the partial failure of the monsoon in 1971 and the nearly complete failure of the monsoon last year. The drought has hit hardest those States in Western India where there is inadequate and uncertain rainfall and where irrigation is difficult—the kind of area about which the right hon. Member for Lanark was talking.
  This time last year the Government of India had food stocks of nearly 9 million tons. The autumn and spring harvests, the last harvests, were expected to yield about 100 million tons, and India also bought 2 million tons from her foreign exchange reserves. At present the Indian Government are making available a little over 1 million tons a month for rationed sale in fair-priced shops. I understand that the Indian Government are now considering further purchases abroad to reinforce what they can buy from their own spring harvest, which has yielded less than they hoped. India's ability to buy grain is clearly boosted by aid from the consortium. In the last financial year Britain provided over 40 per cent. of the total net aid received from donors by India, and that is quite a remarkable contribution.
  To return to the problem of water, food is clearly useless without water. The Indian Government are tackling the water shortage in a number of ways. Much of their public relief work programme is directed to creating better supplies. Deep wells are being drilled and the relief work plan is employing daily more than 4 million people in the State of Maharashtra alone. We ourselves have contributed specifically to well drilling, both directly in the State of Mysore and indirectly through the proposed grant of£250,000 to UNICEF.
  Voluntary agencies from this country are closely involved. I am told by observers who have seen their work that they are doing a very good job indeed. The conquest of the drought is, and must be, largely a task for India herself—a task that I immediately say she is tackling with great energy and great enthusiasm. But success depends obviously, above all else, on a plentiful monsoon.

  1657
  Meanwhile, I am not expecting that the Indian Government will ask for more help than we are already providing.
  The right hon. Lady talked about my conducting a diplomatic minuet. I assure her that I have not been dancing around the Acting High Commissioner. The right hon. Member for Caernarvon suggested that we should ask to be asked. That is playing with words. As I told the right hon. Lady a short time ago, I have made perfectly clear our attitude in this matter, and the Indian Government are well aware that we stand ready to help if the need arises. But I am not expecting a request for further help.
  India's future in the longer term depends on the success of her development plans. At the India Aid Consortium meeting in Paris 10 days ago, pledges of development assistance were offered by donor countries and the World Bank which were higher than for some years past. Pledges are not yet complete but they are already close to the minimum requirement calculated by the World Bank. I am glad to say that our pledge is higher than that of any other bilateral donor, and that this general willingness to help should strengthen the Government of India in the management of the economy and in facing all the problems that they have ahead of them, including the management of the food procurement programme in this critical year. But if the Government of India find it necessary to ask for further help to meet their food requirements I hope the international community will be ready to accept such a request, and we for our part would consider it sympathetically in so far as it lies within our means to respond.
  When we came to office in 1970 the first Gracious Speech promised that we would pursue an expanding aid programme. I am glad to say that in each of the annual public expenditure reviews we have kept the aid programme on the course of considerable annual increase, well above the annual increase in other programmes. The apparent rate of increase in the programme as a whole was reduced by pressure on the aid programme that led us to bring forward
  1658
  expenditure, but I am glad to say that some of these pressures have abated.
  The true aid programme would give us today at 1972 prices a net expenditure of £257 million this year, which is likely to rise to £333 million in 1976–77. I make it clear that these figures are revalued each year so that we get the cash equivalent of those 1972 values.
  In the last three years for which figures are available Britain has reached the United Nations target of 1 per cent. for the total flows of financial resources to the developing countries.
  My noble Friend the Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs told the UNCTAD conference that we would consider increasing the official aid programme if we looked like missing the 1 per cent. official aid target in the middle 1970s. This is the target we have accepted. As I have told the right hon. Lady on one or two occasions, we have not accepted the separate target of 0·7 per cent. We believe that in a mixed economy it is right for both private and public contributions to assist the development of the less-developed countries.
  The distribution of our aid programme is still largely in the direction of the Commonwealth countries. We are very ready to increase the application of our aid to countries outside, but I think that most hon. Members will support the provision of a substantial proportion of the aid programme to countries with which we have a long association.
  Over the next few years, and subject to discussions which will begin in July and about which I will speak in a few moments, we shall have to start contributing to the European Development Fund. It is very difficult to say precisely at present what effect this will have on the distribution of our own aid programme, but we shall want to continue to help the countries which become associated with the Community.
  In answer to the right hon. Lady's question, I have said publicly on a number of occasions that I believe our expanding aid programme will enable us to maintain the total of bilateral aid at the same time as we contribute to the European Development Fund. Those countries which become associated with Europe will become eligible from the European

  1659
  Development Fund, which will naturally include contributions from other countries of Europe which may not have helped them in the past. At the same time, we shall want to ensure that countries which are not eligible for association do not suffer as a result of diversion of money through Europe.
  I return to the subject of India, which, because of its vast size and population, has always ranked first among the recipients of our bilateral aid. In the light of the needs of India, it is very difficult to put any specific limit on what should be directed there, and our own resources are always limited. Therefore, we must secure the best balance we can between the claims of India and those of others. I hope that we are getting it about right.
  During recent months we have reached a fresh agreement with Kenya, and during the recent State visit we were able to reach an agreement with the Government of the Sudan for an aid programme in that country. We have made substantial contributions towards relief in the Sudan in the past.
  Egypt is a fairly new recipient of bilateral aid from Britain. By the end of October 1971 we were able to propose a£5 million development loan to be spent at the rate of about £1 million a year. The loan was announced in the House in November 1971, and it is being spent, but there exists a vast number of projects which could be financed from bilateral aid funds. Moreover, Egypt's need of such funds, and her ability to use them effectively, is clear. Therefore, I recently decided that Egypt should be offered a new loan of £10 million to be spent at the same time as the balance of the existing loan, so as to result in a total expenditure in Egypt of about£5 million in our financial year 1976–77.
  Mr. Wall rose
  Mr. Wood: I hope that my hon. Friend will allow me to continue, because I wanted to say something about Europe.
  While we maintain our aid to the Commonwealth, to the dependencies and to the associated States, which last year totalled nearly £30 million, it has been possible to take new initiatives within the aid programme. In particular, we have a growing programme of aid to Indonesia, where we are providing money in
  1660
  general support of Indonesia's import programmes and for particular projects.
  The right hon. Lady and the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Maclennan) in particular raised the important question of the future relationship between Europe and the developing countries. As the right hon. Lady knows well, my Department recently produced a memorandum for the Select Committee of which she is a member. It contained a good deal of factual information about Europe and development issues There is a great deal of ground that the memorandum naturally could not cover because of the negotiations that are to take place.
  I should like to say something about the major themes of negotiations about association that are due to start soon and about the approach that the European Community is making towards the overall policy of developmental cooperation on a world-wide scale. The present Yaoundé Convention ends on 31st March 1975. The existing associates and the associable countries of the Commonwealth have been invited to an opening conference on 25th July. The European Commission last April produced a memorandum, which is now available in the Vote Office, setting out the main issues that will be for discussion—things like major areas of tariffs and quotas, the stabilisation of export receipts, the question of joint institutions and so on.
  The invitation to the eligible nations, all of which we hope will attend, is in very broad terms. I fervently hope that the conference will lay the foundations for co-operation between the Anglophone and the Francophone countries, and will emphasise their opportunity for the first time in history to join in a common relationship with the ex-metropolitan Powers of Europe.
  I say to the hon. Member for Portsmouth, West (Mr. Judd), who made a most thoughtful speech, in which he spoke about the fragmentation of the power and influence of the developing countries, and of his determination that we should get away from that, that I believe that this is a real opportunity to do so, to bring together the developing countries, particularly in Africa, which have for a long time been divided because they happened in the past to be colonised either by France or by Great

  1661
  Britain. I believe that this represents a great opportunity for us all. The present associates have the promise of quantitative and qualitative continuity. The new associates who decide to choose association have the equally binding promise of similar treatment.
  Until we know more certainly the likely number of future beneficiaries, it is clearly impossible to say how big the new European multilateral fund will be, but it is likely to be—I hope it is likely to be—substantially larger than it is now. The terms and management of the new fund will be a matter for negotiation. We shall be playing an active part in the discussion. We are at the moment studying the project criteria and the purchasing rules now in use and once we are full contributory members we shall be able to put our weight behind the generally encouraging trends towards a distribution of moneys which balances the claims of the most needy with the proper objective of achieving the best economic results.
  The right hon. Lady rightly pointed out that we have historic ties and long friendship with the large and important developing countries of the Asian Commonwealth. I am therefore glad to say that negotiations for a comprehensive trade agreement between India and the European Community are going well. In the light of the recent discussions by the Council of Ministers, I hope that there
  1662
  will be a positive response to the summit call last year for
  "the progressive adoption of an overall policy of development co-operation on a worldwide scale"
  from which those countries in particular will in due course benefit.
  We shall meanwhile maintain our normal development criteria for management of our bilateral programmes and we shall go on working to achieve an important place for this important and heavily populated part of the world through organisations like IDA and the Asian Development Bank.
  There is no doubt in my mind, nor I think from what I have heard said by a number of right hon. and hon. Members, in many minds in the House, that this country should continue to pay a full part as a member of the international community in efforts to promote the well being of people in the developing countries all over the world. This is our clear objective. The work to be done is almost infinite and it is most unlikely to be completed within the lifetime of any Member here, but I am convinced that it is work that will substantially change the kind of world in which our children and grandchildren are to live, and for this reason alone I hope that Britain will never abandon it.
  Mr. Oscar Murton (Lord Commissioner of the Treasury): I beg to ask leave to withdraw the motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

  BUTTER
  9.59 p.m.
  Mr. Brian O'Malley: I beg to move,
  That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Butter Subsidy Regulations 1973 (S.I., 1973, No. 1012), dated 5th June 1973, a copy of which was laid before this House on 12th June, be annulled.
  For 2½p a week the Government have broken the confidentiality of the supplementary benefits and the family income supplement systems. Since 1966, when the Ministry of Social Security Act was passed, claimants have been assured that the payments of benefits to them were confidential. Indeed, during the campaigns which successive Governments have run to persuade those who may have entitlement to make their claims to the Supplementary Benefits Commission that assurance of confidentiality has been a major feature of the campaigns. Now, in a reversion to soup kitchen politics, the Government are to issue butter tokens which will serve as public labels advertising family poverty. How does the Minister think that poor people will feel when every shopkeeper where they go, every sales assistant in a supermarket and every member in a supermarket queue will know that they are on means-tested benefits? How would hon. Members feel if their wives had to do their shopping in those circumstances?
  So it is that individual poverty is to be publicly exposed for 2½p a week. That is a derisory sum when set against the general rise in food prices, now running at over 20 per cent. a year.
  I have the support of the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, who has cast doubt upon the benefits which this scheme will bring. During Question Time on 15th March, at a time when the benefit appeared likely to be 1½ a week rather than 2½p, the right hon. Gentleman said:
  "One has to think of this in relation to the cost of administering a scheme such as this. This is a somewhat doubtful benefit."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 15th March 1973; Vol. 852, c. 1451.]
  During Question Time on 17th May the right hon. Gentleman said:
  "…we have repeatedly said that we do not think this is the way in which one should
  1664
  normally make arrangements for those in need on social security benefits…".—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 17th May 1973; Vol. 856, c. 1695.]
  The only comfort which poor people can have who are to be issued with these tokens comes from the Commissioner for Agriculture, Mr. Lardinois, who told the European Parliament on 8th June 1973:
  "…failure to solve the butter problem would be a deathblow to our institutions."
  At least it is comforting to know that the institutions of the EEC are as firm and as enduring as the unwanted butter and the common agricultural policy which is a feature of the European Economic Community.
  The first complaint which will be made, which is already being made and which must be reflected in the House is that the Government—and the Minister knows this better than any other hon. Member —are destroying the confidentiality of the supplementary benefits system.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mr. Paul Dean)indicated dissent.
  Mr. O'Malley: It is no good the hon. Gentleman shaking his head. He knows that is so. How can it be otherwise when we are to issue butter tokens which will be a badge in every shop and supermarket saying:
  "My family have to depend on means tested supplementary benefits. My husband has a job which pays wages so low that he has to be means tested in order to obtain family income supplement."?
  That is not the only charge which can be made against the scheme which is being introduced by the Government. In this, as in other areas of public policy, the Government continue to act as a divisive force rather than a unifying force within the nation.
  There are about 7½ million retirement pensioners in this country, and about 2 million of them are to be eligible for the butter subsidy of 2½p a week. Those 2 million—I speak in rough figures—are the retirement pensioners who are currently drawing means-tested supplementary benefits. They are pensioners who were encouraged to draw such benefits on the assurance that their dealings with the Supplementary Benefits Commission were private and confidential and would be

  1665
  revealed to no man. Yet of the 5½ million pensioners remaining who have no entitlement under the scheme, as many as 2 million have incomes little above the supplementary benefit level. There are also substantial numbers the estimates vary from upwards of 500,000 to 1 million—of retirement pensioners who are estimated to be entitled to supplementary benefit but will not claim it.
  All of us in our constituency advice bureaux know of these people and know why they will not claim. We try to persuade them to claim by saying "It is confidential and you are entitled to these benefits." But they will not claim because they feel it demeaning to do so and they have bitter memories of the old poor law and guardian days and will have nothing to do with the scheme. How can any Government operating a butter subsidy with public butter tokens ever again say to these people "You have an entitlement and there is no need to feel that you are receiving charity, and in any case the benefit is confidential"?
  If these people are to claim their rights now under the butter subsidy regulations, the matter is no longer confidential. So, five out of seven of our pensioners—not wealthy people—are already precluded from this minuscule benefit and they are amongst a section of the population worst hit by the ravages of the inflation produced by the Government's policy.
  As the Community regulations are apparently to be interpreted, one is informed by the Government that the subsidy is confined to recipients of supplementary benefits—not all recipients but most of them—and to recipients of the family income supplement. My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. English), who raised this matter for the first time in the House, suggested originally that the persons entitled to the subsidy would total 22 million, Including all retirement pensioners, the sick and the unemployed. We are told that the correct figure is about 5 million.
  It would have been one thing to have issued these tokens to the whole of the present generation of retirement pensioners, because then the badge would have been the badge of retirement, of age. It is quite different to confine the
  1666
  issue of such tokens to two out of every seven pensioners, because that means that the badge shows that they are those who have to rely on means-tested benefits which they thought were confidential.
  One must ask a number of questions about entitlement which demand answer in considering these loosely-drafted regulations. As I understand it, the major body of supplementary benefit recipients who will be entitled to apply for and receive the tokens will be those
  "…whose pension or allowance is paid by means of an order which is one of a series of orders for the payment of sums on account of benefit, which is, or has been, contained in a book of such orders".
  I understand that there are no order books for supplementary benefit purposes for the unemployed, even the longterm unemployed, since as long as a man is required to register at the Department of Employment for work no order book is issued. Therefore, paragraph 2(b)(i) apparently wholly excludes the unemployed, including the long-term and even the older long-term unemployed, from the availability of these tokens. In regulation 2(b)(ii) we are told that, in addition to these people who have order books, there will be entitled to this benefit:
  "such other person as the Secretary of State may decide."
  That is a very wide non-definitive phrase within a statutory instrument and I hope that the Minister will explain it. Who among the unemployed, for example, will be entitled to receive these butter tokens under the regulations?
  Again, the regulations do not make clear what the entitlement will be or how the problems will be dealt with administratively. Perhaps we can have an explanation. In a statement by the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, who with his background clearly has a deep knowledge of poverty and supplementary benefits, we were told that the majority of persons on supplementary benefit were to receive or to be entitled to these butter tokens and that they would also be available to those who were continuing recipients of supplementary benefits. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will explain how a decision is to be taken on that basis. There is nothing said about it here. All that we are doing is giving the Secretary

  1667
  of State blanket power to act as he may decide.
  Administratively, I can see enormous problems. What will be the position of a person who has been unemployed for six months or for more than 12 months and has exhausted his entitlement? Will such a person be regarded as being a continuing recipient of supplementary benefits? There is a whole area of confusion and doubt which need never have existed had it not been for the nature of these regulations to which the Government are tonight making obeisance.
  There is a third group of people who will certainly not be entitled to such payments. We know that persons receiving national insurance benefits and no supplementary benefit will not be entitled. There is also the low-paid, who have incomes above the FIS level but who, because of the nature, size and age of their family or the level of rent they pay, are still below supplementary benefit level.
  What about these? If the Government are being forced to draw lines of this kind by the EEC the Minister will have a job to defend such decisions. There has been a cutting-down of the entitlement from the 22 million first envisaged by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, West and not disputed by the Government, who apparently knew little or nothing about it. Such restrictions might be explained if the encouragement of consumption on the scale of 5 million persons in this country along with similar numbers in other EEC countries was thought to be likely to reduce or remove the surplus. That is not the case. The scale of this operation to get rid of the butter mountain is nothing like enough even to see it reduced to tolerable levels by the end of 1973.
  Mr. Michael English: It will not even have become a hill.
  Mr. O'Malley: There are some who believe that the mountain will stay at its present level. The problem is whether there are enough cold storage facilities and refrigerators to put the stuff in. Even with the sale of 200,000 tons to Russia the butter mountain will continue to be a feature of the Community landscape, certainly throughout 1973. There can be no confidence that it will be removed in 1974. The Community, with all its ex-
  1668
  pertise and agricultural policy based on years of hard experience, had this situation in 1969 and 1970. It tried to deal with the problem with measures of this kind and was unsuccessful.
  Butter production throughout the EEC is now running at least 10 per cent. above the 1972 production levels. Therefore, although the Government have agreed to a 5½5 per cent. increase for French farmers in respect of butter and milk—and, however one looks at it, that is the deal which the Minister of Agriculture brought back from Europe—only a fraction of those in this country on social security benefit are to be included in the scheme.
  Those are the two principal condemnations of the scheme—the breach of confidentiality, and its divisive nature.
  Mr. Dean: The hon. Gentleman is blowing hot and cold, and I am not clear whether he is in favour of the Government taking advantage of the subsidy for supplementary beneficiaries.
  Mr. O'Malley: The hon. Gentleman is not usually so naїve—at least, not deliberately so. He knows that the Labour Party, if it had been in office, would never have entered the EEC on the terms negotiated by the Government, which have produced the present nonsense.
  Mr. Dean: Whether I am naїve or not, the hon. Gentleman has not answered my simple question: is he is favour of the Government taking advantage of the subsidy for supplementary beneficiaries?
  Mr. O'Malley: If the hon. Gentleman will listen, that is precisely the balance of argument at which I am trying to arrive. However, whether he is an Opposition Front Bench spokesman or not, every hon. Member is entitled to consider a scheme and to ask what are the inherent disadvantages of it. That is what I am doing.
  Mr. English: I was puzzled by the Under-Secretary of State's intervention. Has my hon. Friend noticed that the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications takes exactly the opposite view to that of the Under-Secretary of State about the question of subsidies in kind for old people?
  Mr. O'Malley: The conflict is on the benches opposite rather than on these benches. A few months ago, when my hon. Friends the Members for Nottingham, West and Farnworth (Mr. Roper) raised the issue, it was thought that 22 million people would receive the benefit without means testing, which stinks in the nostrils of millions of our countrymen. The situation then was very different from the scheme now brought forward by the Government.
  I wish to ask the Under-Secretary of State a number of questions. When dealing with benefits of this kind, the first question which the hon. Gentleman will expect me to ask is about take-up. He has always been forthcoming on this matter. When the family income supplement scheme, which we on this side of the House disliked so much, was introduced, the hon. Gentleman and the Secretary of State had no hesitation in giving us their estimates of the take-up. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be as forthcoming tonight. I have no reason to believe that he will not be. It is estimated that half a million to 1 million retirement pensioners do not claim supplementary benefit but are entitled to do so. There are a further 700,000 persons on unemployment and sickness benefit who are thought to be entitled to supplementary benefit but make no claim, and only 50 per cent. of families estimated to be entitled to family income supplements claim them. I should like to know the estimated percentage take-up; that is to say, the number of persons who are entitled to the benefit. That figure will give a clear indication of the value of the scheme.
  The £3 million estimated cost of the butter subsidy is to come from EEC funds. I understand the attitude of the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food when he said that he disliked the scheme, that there was not much to be said for it and it was of doubtful value. He took the view that if the Community offered something for which the Community paid the full cost it would be wrong for us not to accept it. I understand that view, but what will be the administrative cost? That will not come out of Community funds, it will have to be borne by the British taxpayer. The £3 million is a tiny figure in comparison with the cost of the agreement with the
  1670
  EEC that has been made by the Government.
  How many civil servants will be involved, and what will be the administrative cost? I expect the cost to be fairly high. If the administrative cost comes to one-fifth of the cost of the benefits, serious questions will be posed about the viability of the scheme. The cost of the part played by post offices in the operation of this short-term scheme will be substantial. As with take-up, estimates are made. We are not dealing with the mysteries of the Treasury and the conventional attitude that nothing can be said. The Minister is free to give the estimates.
  The Minister must dislike the scheme intensely. He has a detailed knowledge of the operation of the national insurance and supplementary benefit schemes. Privately, although he cannot say so, he must be very uncomfortable tonight.
  Regulation 4(1) provides that:
  "Only the person to, or in respect of whom, a butter token is issued, or someone acting on his behalf, shall be entitled to use it."
  The penalties provided in Regulation 7 are horrific:
  "Where a butter token is used whether fraudulently or otherwise, by a person not entitled to use it, the Secretary of State may recover the value of it from that person or from any other person who has dealt with the token contrary to the provisions of these regulations."
  Those are strong measures to deal with fraud and abuse. We are told that if a token is lost, another token is claimed in its place and the first token is found and is not returned to the Department the terrible troubles of hell will descend. The person concerned will have to pay the 2½p a week.
  I can understand the Government's reluctance to impose huge penalties for fraud, but the whole thing becomes laughable when we look at the terms of the statutory instrument. Supposing somebody does not pay the 2½p or the 10p and the matter goes to court. Is the Department prepared to spend £500 a day in dealing with individual court cases involving such small sums?
  Mr. Dean: The hon. Gentleman is now making out a case for the penalties not being adequate. Would he like to enlighten the House on what the penalties should be, so that consideration can be given to his suggestions?
  Mr. O'Malley: I wish the Minister would keep to the point. I am saying that the benefits are not adequate. How can any sensible man discuss seriously the question of penalties in respect of a minuscule scheme of this kind?
  When we look at the possibilities of abuse of the system, the matter becomes much more serious. What is to happen to the shopkeeper who takes those 5p butter tokens and allows the holder of those coupons to have 5p to spend on something else? Who can possibly check on individual butter stocks held in every shop and supermarket in the country? Surely the hon. Gentleman would have to say "Yes, we recognise the defects of the whole scheme. We are in a mess because we felt that we had to bend to the will of the EEC's social policy."
  The social butter scheme now being introduced by the Governmet is one logical and farcical conclusion of Britain's entry into the EEC on the terms accepted by the Conservative Government. The House of Commons became aware of the relevant EEC regulations and directives on this subject only because of the activities of my hon. Friends the Members for Nottingham, West and Farnworth. This is a reflection of the place of the British Parliament in the scheme of European affairs, as those affairs are managed in 1973.
  What puzzles me about the scheme is that the Government are doctrinally opposed to food subsidies on items on which the consumer badly needs subsidies —with one proviso, and that is where the EEC decrees otherwise. The matter can best be summed up by a quotation from a leader in the Guardian on 8th June, which said when talking of CAP and the butter mountain:
  "…the Community taxpayer now pays the farmer to produce butter, the consumer to eat it, foreigners to take some of it away, and the Community to store the rest."
  The purpose of this scheme is to sustain such a system.
  The introduction of this butter subsidy is the outward sign that the poorest in the country are pawns in the struggle to maintain an inefficient, high cost and indefinable European agricultural system. It is in this light that we should consider these regulations.
  10.28 p.m.
  Mr. Eric Deakins: I support the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Mr. O'Malley), particularly when he said that this scheme will amount to only a pittance for the poorest people of this country. Over a period of six months they are being offered butter tokens to a total value of 60p. We are discussing one pound of butter per month for six months at a subsidy of 5p per half-pound. That represents a saving of 60p. That is no substitute for a decent level of social security benefit. Moreover, as my hon. Friend pointed out, it does not even cover two-thirds of our old-age pensioners, many of whom will be fondly imagining that they can look forward to receiving butter tokens. I am afraid that they will be disappointed.
  I also agree with the contention of my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham that this scheme will mean a loss of confidentiality. That may not mean very much to the Minister or to a civil servant, but it will mean a great deal to the poorer sections of our community when they go shopping. At the moment, their neighbours do not know whether they are on supplementary benefit or in receipt of family income supplement. But here is a scheme which will make it widely known when people are shopping at least twice a month for six months that they are entitled to this charity from the Common Market.
  I want to ask the Minister a number of questions. Why cannot we have a general butter subsidy? There are many working class families who cannot afford, and increasingly will not be able to afford, the level of butter prices that we are likely to face under the common agricultural policy. At the moment, butter is relatively cheap. We know that the price will start moving upwards as we put on levies on imports and progress towards the Common Market system.
  This Tory Government dislike subsidies, although they have introduced one or two. This subsidy is a minor one. Why cannot they grasp the nettle firmly and introduce a general subsidy on butter, so helping to get rid of that butter mountain in Brussels? Better still, why not just lower the price of butter in this country? That would help more people to eat butter.

  1673
  This subsidy idea highlights one of the many absurdities of the CAP, which we have to put up with for as long as we remain in the Common Market. Prices to farmers encourage the over-production of commodities. But, automatically, they mean prices to consumers which discourage consumption because they are much higher than those to which we have been used. The result is that we have these expensive surpluses of butter and other commodities leading the Common Market, with all the brilliant brains of the bureaucrats in Brussels and other places, to devise schemes to get rid of the surpluses.
  What has not been tried to get rid of the butter surplus in the Common Market? It has been fed back to cows as part of animal feeding stuffs. What an absurdity! Butter oil has been exported to other countries, where it can be re-converted to bunter. What an absurdity! Butter has been dumped on world markets, to the detriment of world agricultural trade, including that of our major supplier New Zealand. What an absurdity! At a tremendous loss to the consumer and taxpayer of this and other Common Market countries, butter has been sold to the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. What an absurdity! Now we have the latest absurdity: a small subsidy for a small proportion of consumers in such Common Market countries as wish to take it up. There is not even any compulsion about it.
  This subsidy shows not only the absurdity of the CAP but that its basic principles are incapable of the sort of reform which Ministers keep telling us they want to see. We have to scrap the whole system. The butter subsidy ought to be scrapped. If we had a proper agricultural system, levies on butter and other foods would be scrapped. Let us get back to a sensible agricultural policy which will produce food both at home and overseas at prices which all our citizens can afford and not just a minority of the people.
  10.35 p.m.
  Mr. John Farr: I am surprised at what has been said by the hon. Members for Rotherham (Mr. O'Malley) and Walthamstow, West (Mr. Deakins). They seemd to be rather critical of what my hon. Friends and I,
  1674
  and probably most people in this country, regard as a very good scheme, albeit, we hope, a pilot scheme which will possibly be expanded later.
  It is nonsense for the hon. Member for Walthamstow, West to suggest that the Conservative Party does not like subsidies. We introduced the Agriculture Act 1957 which subsidised food prices for many years most sucessfully, at great cost to the taxpayer but to the great benefit of the housewife. That Act was introduced by a Conservative Government and was sustained by them over many years in office.
  I welcome the regulations. Many people will see that the Government have at least taken this chance of extending some form of real comfort to those in need, on however limited a scale. There are all too few occasions that any Government seize such opportunities.
  Hon. Members on both sides of the House have urged differing Governments to take more positive action on, for example, concessionary bus fares for the aged. Indeed, I had the support of hon. Members on both sides of the House not so long ago when I introduced a Bill to provide half-price television licences for the elderly.
  This is a minute step that the Government are taking—two 5p tokens per month for limited categories of the population—but I welcome it as a pilot step, especially as regulation 2(b) (ii) indicates that, if we accept the regulations, the Minister will have power to expand the scheme. That is the attitude that I urge hon. Members on both sides to adopt. This is a good step to take. It is very limited, it is not enough, but it is a good step. I shall suggest ideas on how I think it can be expanded, and I know that they will be echoed by many of my hon. Friends.
  I suggest that the scheme should eventually be increased in scope in various ways. Two 5p tokens per month is rather paltry. It amounts to £1.20 per person per annum. I should like to see that doubled for butter. I should like it to be applied to all old-age pensioners, as the hon. Member for Rotherham suggested. I should particularly like the scheme to be extended at a fairly early date to include commodities other than butter which are, or are likely to be, in surplus.

  1675
  Not so long ago in the House my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food undertook that in the ensuing few months, this summer, in Brussels and elsewhere within the Nine he would do his utmost to bring about an improvement in the common agricultural policy. It is generally recognised on both sides of the House that it is not working in a satisfactory manner. If we pass these regulations my right hon. Friend will have a positive contribution to make.
  Suppose the regulations are extended to apply to sugar products. Because of the way that the common agricultural policy is being steered in Brussels at the moment, I suggest that we are heading for a massive sugar surplus within the EEC at an early date. The nine nations of the EEC are not signatories to the World Sugar Agreement, which is delicately balanced between supply and demand. Even a few thousand tons of surplus sugar coming on the world market can wreck the returns of all our third country producers in the Commonwealth.
  Mr. English: The hon. Gentleman will recall that I discovered this subsidy in the OFFICIAL JOURNAL of the Community which comes through my door. He will be glad to know that this morning in the OFFICIAL JOURNAL of the Community there is a new regulation on the denaturing of sugar so that it need not be fed to human beings.
  Mr. Farr: That is a red herring which I will not pursue at this hour. It sounds to be a project full of interest for hon. Members on both sides of the House.
  The EEC is likely to have surplus sugar. We in this country have plans to produce a great deal more. Surely the regulations represent the basis of a sensible scheme whereby our taxpayers benefit by helping to rid this country and the other countries of the Nine of any surplus commodities that may be produced.
  Mr. David Clark: Many of us are following the hon. Gentleman's argument and accepting it. Does he realise that within the last six months the Government have introduced orders to remove the sugar subsidy?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): Order. I am sorry, but I cannot take arguments about the sugar sub-
  1676
  sidy. I should have corrected the hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) earlier. Sugar is out of order on these regulations.
  Mr. Farr: I have already said what I wanted to say about it, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I shall not, in any circumstances, question your ruling.
  I was about to conclude by saying that any arrangements which the Government and my right hon. Friend can enter into Brussels about the disposal of surplus Community agricultural products will be better than the way in which we disposed of our surplus butter to the Russians in recent months. Let us have an orderly system. Let the taxpayers of this country —after all, they are paying far more into the Community than they will ever get out of it—get back some of the money that they are required to pay.
  I agree with these regulations. The Opposition have criticised them rather with their tongue in their cheek, because the fact is that it is no use criticising these regulations here in this House. If hon. Gentlemen opposite want to criticise these provisions, they should do so where they can make an impact. They should make their voices heard not in this House but in Brussels where the decisions are taken and in the European Parliament where the Labour Party is not represented.
  Mr. Albert Booth: My main opposititon to these regulations is that they constitute a serious affront to the pride of many of my poorest constituents. To affront the pride of a poor person has always seemed to me to be worse than affronting the pride of a rich person, because the rich have so many other compensations.
  I am sure that many of those who as a result of these regulations will hand over their butter tokens will do so with a sense of humiliation. If the Minister thinks that those who feel humiliated by using such a scheme as this should not use it, let me remind him that those who use the tokens will do so in order to obtain butter not for themselves but for their children and other dependents on supplementary benefits.
  I shall not be tempted as far out of order as the hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) was by talking about

  1677
  the possibility of this being a pilot scheme for other products, but in order to make a fair and objective judgment of the scheme one has to ask why only butter is being dealt with in this way.
  The answer cannot lie in the categories of persons referred to in the regulations, because these are people in receipt of FIS and supplementary benefits; people to whom milk, bread and eggs are every bit as essential as butter for their well being.
  If I may have the Minister's attention, I should like to deal with what I think must be a mistake in regulation 6(4). If the paragraph is printed correctly, it has no meaning whatsoever. It says:
  "any token issued in respect of the deceased shall deliver it forthwith to an office of the Department of Health and Social Security."
  There must be some mistake there and I hope that the Minister will tell us what it should be. One assumes that the word should be "it". If the instrument is intended seriously, the Minister should at least have pointed this out at the outset.
  What legal sanction is there for regulation 6(4), since this is not covered by the sanction mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Mr. O'Malley)? The penalty for failure to return the token of a dead person can be prescribed only by a regulation under the power contained in the Preamble to the Statutory Instrument. But if I read that Preamble correctly, this can prescribe a penalty subject to the limits of Schedule 2 of the EEC Act, of up to two years imprisonment or a fine of £400. This seems out of line with the penalties referred to by my hon. Friend, which relate to other regulations in the instrument.
  The Minister must also tell us, if we are to understand the instrument, which recipients of supplementary benefit are excluded by the operation or otherwise of regulation 2(b)(ii). There must be an exclusion of such recipients, subject to the decision of the Secretary of State.
  Mr. O'Malley: It is plain from the Press notices issued on this subject that one group of persons who will be excluded are the wives and children of men on strike. Since the Government have almost a "thing" about strikers and supplementary benefit, under these regulations, according to the Government advice to newspaper editors, the
  1678
  children and wives of men on strike, however long they are on strike, will not be able to get this butter in any circumstances.
  Mr. Booth: I am grateful for the help of my hon. Friend, who is such an authority on these matters. But the Minister still has an obligation to say whether this limitation extends only so far as my hon. Friend has said.
  I want to question the Minister closely on whether the regulations comply with the decision of the Commission on 29th December, which the Explanatory Note suggests the regulations are intended to carry out. The Official Journal of the European Communities for 13th February 1973 says, on page 40/15:
  "Consumers shall obtain butter only on the production of a document proving their entitlement."
  Where in the regulations is this document described? Is it some new form of supplementary pension allowance or family income supplement book?
  The regulations will be humiliating to some of my constituents and an affront to their pride. The Minister asked my hon. Friend whether or not he opposed the regulations. I have no hesitation in answering—I am opposed to them.
  I urge the Minister to spread such relief as one can get from the inequities of the EEC common agricultural policy over the community as a whole and to deal with the very serious problem of those on social security and supplementary benefit by increasing their benefits.
  10.50 p.m.
  Mr. Michael English: I feel a little sorry for the Government tonight. The hon. Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr) got matters slightly wrong. It was not a case of the Government thinking in the depths of the night what they could do to reduce the price of butter for old people and people receiving benefits. The Government did not even know about this subsidy.
  Hon. Members have ben kind enough to mention that when I found the Minister of Agriculture talking one day about agriculture within the Community, I asked him about a butter subsidy. The Minister did not even know about it. Apparently his Department had not read

  1679
  the document produced by the European Commission only two days before we entered the Community. For some inexplicable reason, perhaps the intricate bureaucratic processes of Brussells, the document was not published until about six weeks after it was produced. The Department did not even know; nor did the Department of Health and Social Security.
  My first question is very simple. I know the attitude of the Ministry of Agriculture, which I understand promptly instituted an inquiry into what had happened—or, rather, into what had not happened. Are the Department of Health and Social Security and the Ministry of Agriculture aware that laws are sometimes made in Brussels because of the Government's policy, and do they take note of them? Do the civil servants in those Departments tell their Ministers about them? They certainly did not tell them in this case.
  The next thing that happened was that the Secretary of State for Social Services and the Minister of Agriculture were told about the regulations and had to get their heads together to see whether they would implement them. I strongly suspect that had the former Prime Minister of Ireland not, in the midst of an election campaign, announced that he would be implementing them in Ireland and that they could be implemented, and that every other State in the Community, apart from Britain, would be implementing them, our Ministers might have arrived at a contrary conclusion. The fact of the election in Ireland publicised this matter even more.
  We know that this is not the Government's idea. My hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Mr. O'Malley) was asked whether the Opposition were in favour of this subsidy. As a general principle, I agree with Ministers in that I do not like subsidies in kind. I have have visited old people's clubs in my constituency and defended the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications, for example, saying that I did not want cheap television licences for old people. I said that I wanted old people's pensions to be raised to a proper level. I do not want to see this and that subsidy in kind. Apart from anything else, the hon. Member for Harborough should consider the administrative costs
  1680
  of having a thousand different subsidies in kind.
  The most important point, however, is that old or unemployed people, or anyone receiving benefits, should have the same right as anyone else in the community to decide for themselves how they want to spend their money. Some may not want a television set. Some may prefer to go to a pub. It is not for us to judge them. If I am not receiving a benefit I am entitled to spend my money as I wish; if one is receiving one the same should apply.
  As my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham said, we do not want this old attitude of charity. My hon. Friend was a little unfair when he blamed this old attitude of charity on the Government. It is not their fault. It is a European attitude which we are implementing. The regulation is a European regulation which the Government, under pressure, have decided to adopt. It is the Europeans who are saying "People must be singled out. If they produce tokens to prove that they are poor, they can receive charity."
  Mr. O'Malley: I accept that, but my hon. Friend and I can agree that the Government need never have been in this position. After all, it was the Government who decided that the social, economic and political objectives of the Community under the Treaty of Rome were acceptable to Britain. It was this Government who took us into the Community on that basis.
  Mr. English: I agree that the Government are responsible for our joining the Community. This regulation is something that they have got to wear, because it is one of the European attitudes. One of the European attitudes is charity towards people in receipt of benefit.
  I shall quote in an election campaign the hon. Member for Harborough saying that he believes in real comfort for old people—2½p a week.
  Mr. Farr: Far more than the hon. Gentleman did.
  Mr. English: I want to ask the Minister a little more about the definition of eligibility. Where did he get it from? The only body which can interpret a European Community regulation is the European Court. Has anyone asked it? In

  1681
  English it says that those entitled are those in receipt of social security benefits. We know what that means in plain English. As my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham said, it means 22 million people, including pensioners. In German it says "Sozialhilfe", which again means people in receipt of assistance from the State. The Danish and the Dutch versions have the same word with slightly different spellings. In French it is "assistance sociale". The Italians have much the same phrase. The Irish translation had not been made or was not available at the time I looked them all up. All these words have a very similar meaning to the English translation. So where do the Government get their translation from?
  My hon. Friend criticised the lack of clarity of the Government's regulation. He should look at the original Community document. By the standards of the bureaucracy in Brussels, this is a model of clarity.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Booth) pointed out some of the happier phrases in the Community's decision. On the question of how one checks the Community's decision, it has no provisions and no penalties. One knows that apparently everyone in the Vatican is supposed to be eating 30 tons of butter each.
  We are supposed to represent all our constituents. On this issue I have no difficulty in representing them all. Apart from my Labour supporters who voted for me knowing full well my attitude to the Common Market, I am certain, as the hon. Member for Harborough implied, that there are few Conservatives in my constituency who believed that this Government would be partially responsible for a subsidy to the Communist Party of the USSR on butter, not to mention a concealed subsidy to the Vatican on butter.
  Mr. Patrick Cormack (Cannock): One must redress the balance.
  Mr. English: In Britain the balance is somewhere in between that in the Community. On the common agricultural policy, an hon. Member opposite who is a delegate to the European Assembly has said that £50 million has disappeared by sheer corruption. The Commission gave
  1682
  the following splendid answer: "We are not quite sure whether that is the right figure. It may be more." What steps are the Government taking with regard to the common agricultural policy to see that the consumer's money is not wasted?
  The situation is a fantasy at times, but the hon. Member for Harborough says that this is a step on the way, that he hopes to see more subsidies—no doubt on every food product whose price is raised by the European Community. It will mean an awful lot of separate subsidies and an awful lot of civil servants. But he need not worry, because the Government are not particularly keen on it either. That is obvious from the regulations. The Government know perfectly well who they send order books out to —people on the family income supplement, for example, or any of the other things that regulation 3(3) covers in their invented definition. It is not the definition of the Community. The regulation says:
  "Butter tokens shall only be issued under paragraph (1) above on application for them being made by the person to whom the family income supplement, supplementary pension or supplementary allowance, as the case may be, is payable."
  The Government are really saying "We don't want to pay it out. We don't even want to send a 5p butter token to somebody. We shall make it as difficult as possible. You will have to fill in a form." Even an old woman of 88, half blind, bed-ridden and illiterate, will have to fill in a form, to make sure that it is as difficult as possible to get even a 5p butter token.
  The Government have had the subsidy hung round their necks by the European Community two days before we entered the Common Market. They did not find out, partly because the Community did not tell anybody for six weeks. Now the Government are trying to look good, but they do not want it and they would not have thought it up for themselves. I do not blame them.
  Is the Minister proud that under the present Government the average consumption of butter per head in this country has declined? We were told that we should go into the European Community in order to raise our standard of living. Raising our standard of living apparently means that butter consumption, on the

  1683
  Government's own figures in their food survey, should go down and we should eat more margarine. It is no wonder Unilever is one of the principal contributors to the European movement. It has a spectacular interest in it. It is no wonder it is a supporter of the Conservative Party. It has a spectacular interest in that, too.
  The whole situation is caused by the European Community, for a very simple reason. I have always objected to the Community on the ground that it is not democratic. Because it is not democratic, it listens to farmers, to a minority of producers rather than the consumers. Everyone is a consumer of food. I was speaking only yesterday to an expert who had just convened a conference on agricultural economics in the Common Market, and he told me that the surprising thing he had discovered was that almost every European agricultural economist worked for an institute paid for by a farmers' organisation.
  Mr. Cormack: There would not be much agriculture without the farmers.
  Mr. English: Of course there would not, but there would be fewer farmers still if nobody was consuming their product.
  We have the interesting situation that consumption of margarine, which can be produced in a factory, is rising, whereas consumption of butter is going down. I do not know that that is ultimately to the benefit of the farmers of the Community. It may be to the benefit of Unilever but I do not see the benefit to the farmer. The expert discovered that almost every agricultural economist in Europe was paid by a farmers' organisation. What will the Government do about that?
  It seems that the common agricultural policy should be a little more democratic. It seems that more consideration should be given to the consumer as well as the producer; not "instead of" but "as well as" the producer. It must be remembered that people want food at reasonable prices Everybody wants food at reasonable prices instead of this stupid little subsidy. Old age pensioners may need an increase in pensions but everybody needs their food at reasonable market prices. They do not want inflated prices within the Community so that a quarter of a million tons
  1684
  of butter can be sold to Russia or a few more theoretical tons can be sold to the Vatican.
  So that we can all as consumers have our food at reasonable market prices we must get rid of stupid little measures like this and return to a situation where butter takes the place of margarine rather than the other way round.
  11.6 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mr. Paul Dean): The hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr. O'Malley) poured scorn on butter at reduced prices for those on supplementary benefit. I interrupted him to see if he would answer a simple question—namely, whether in the circumstances which we now face he would accept the subsidy for supplementary beneficiaries. To that question no answer was given. The Opposition owe it to the House, if they intend to pray against the regulations, to answer that basic question.
  We have had no answer from the hon. Gentleman. He has treated a serious subject involving supplementary beneficiaries without the seriousness with which he usually treats these matters. We have had no answer from the Opposition. Indeed, they have tended to use this short debate as an occasion to mount an anti-EEC debate. If they feel that some aspects of the common agricultural policy or any other aspect of the EEC are wrong and need to be changed, surely the obligation is on them to assist the Government and everybody else by playing their part in getting changes made.
  The Opposition are in great contrast to my hon. Friend the Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr). My hon. Friend made the point that in the present circumstances the real question which we should be asking ourselves is how we can take full advantage of the situation to assist pensioners and other vulnerable sections of the community.
  Against this background I shall turn to some of the detailed questions which have been asked. I intend to restrict myself to what the regulations are about. I shall try to answer the questions which have been put and not get involved in a much wider debate on the pros and cons of the EEC policy.
  Mr. English rose—
  Mr. Dean: I shall come to the points raised by the hon. Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. English). I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for upbraiding his hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham. He said how unfair his hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham had been. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman because he has put the debate into perspective. We are not arguing about the pros and cons of EEC policy. We are discussing whether we should take advantage of arrangements which flow from the EEC policy. That is what the debate is about and I am grateful to the hon. Member for Nottingham, West for conceding me that point and for reprimanding his hon. Friend for raising issues which are extraneous to the matter which is before us.
  Mr. English: In fairness to myself, I should point out that I raised a fair number of extraneous matters—with your permission, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The EEC regulation is permissive—member countries do not have to introduce it. The hon. Gentleman is in effect saying that he believes in subsidies in kind now. Does he therefore disbelieve in the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications' disbelief in subsidies in kind?
  Mr. Dean: What I am saying is exactly what the hon. Gentleman said. The Government prefer benefits in cash, and for that reason we now have the annual review of pensions, coming into operation in October, and a bigger increase in pensions in real terms than on any previous occasion. But here we have an opportunity, through Community policy, to provide a modest—I do not exaggerate it—help to those on supplementary benefit who wish to buy butter.
  The question before us, therefore, is whether the Government should advise the House to accept this modest help. The issue is as simple and as narrow as that. I am saying that we should do so. The hon. Member for Rotherham has not answered the question.
  Mr. O'Malley: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for admitting that the Government do not like this scheme. Can he say why the Government are operating a scheme in which only the recipients of supplementary benefit and the family
  1686
  income supplement can have these tokens rather than the broad mass of retirement pensioners? Why are the Government discriminating against millions of retirement pensioners?
  Mr. Dean: I will deal with that point. In December the Council of Ministers of the EEC passed a regulation deciding in general terms that in order to help dispose of the butter surplus which had arisen member States would be able to subsidise the price of butter to people receiving social assistance. For the marketing year 1973–74, which began on 14th May, the rate of subsidy paid here will be 10p per pound. The quantity on which the subsidy will be paid will be one pound per month. These are matters within the decision of the EEC rather than the United Kingdom Government. The hon. Member for Nottingham, West made this point.
  Mr. O'Malley: Oh!
  Mr. Dean: It is no use the hon. Gentleman saying "Oh". I am stating the facts. There may be views on the merits but I am stating the facts and confirming what the hon. Member for Nottingham, West said. The cost of the subsidy but not of the administration is born on the Community's agricultural guidance and guarantee fund. The value of the subsidy, if fully taken up, will be about £3 million. The Community regulation has effect until 31st December next.
  The regulations now before the House have been made jointly by my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for Social Services and the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, under Section 2(2) of the European Communities Act. They make the necessary arrangements for us to take on, from 1st July, the Community regulation governing the social butter subsidy.
  Regulations covering Northern Ireland have been made in similar terms, namely the Butter Subsidy Regulations Order (Northern Ireland) 1973.
  Who will qualify? This was the point raised by the hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness (Mr. Booth) in particular. The EEC regulation limits the subsidy to people receiving social assistance. Translated into our terms, that relates to schemes of means-tested benefits for

  1687
  people with inadequate resources, and people getting family income supplement or supplementary pensions or allowances.
  Mr. Booth: If the definition the Minister has given is all-embracing who is excluded in 2(b)(ii)?
  Mr. Dean: I am coming to that. Regulation 2(a) provides that all people receiving FIS and those members of their family for whom the supplement is paid will be entitled to the subsidy. Paragraphs (b) and (c) provide that all persons receiving supplementary pension or allowances by means of an order book will qualify, together with their dependants. In addition such other persons receiving supplementary benefit as the Secretary of State may decide will qualify.
  The arrangements which the Secretary of State has made will ensure that all persons and their dependants receiving a continuing award of supplementary benefit will qualify. Persons who receive only single payments of supplementary benefit, generally the short-term sick and the short-term unemployed, will not qualify. The total number estimated to be entitled to the subsidy is about 5 million, including children.
  In addition to benefiting from the general butter subsidy of about 2p per pound which the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry announced to the House on 7th May, each person will be able to buy one pound of butter a month at 10p less than the price which would otherwise be payable. The first point answers the question asked by the hon. Member for Walthamstow, West (Mr. Deakins) as to why there cannot be a general butter subsidy. There is.
  Mr. O'Malley: Will the hon. Gentleman define short-term sickness and unemployment?
  Mr. Dean: I am coming to that. The details about the qualifications are that a person who qualifies for the subsidy will be issued with two butter tokens for each month for which the scheme operates; that is, from July to December, inclusive. Each token will be valid for the purchase of one half pound of butter at 5p less than the normal price. Each token is valid for two months; that is, the month of the entitlement and the following month.
  1688
  I come to the arrangements for issuing tokens at the outset of the scheme. The vast majority of those who will receive benefit are those who will receive it by order book. This week post offices are giving the people concerned a form containing a simple declaration as to the number of people in the family. The completed forms are to be returned to the post office next week when the beneficiary will be given the appropriate number of token sheets, which will provide for tokens up to the end of the year.
  The second group are people who are receiving a continuing supplementary allowance through the employment exchanges. I have in mind in particular the people mentioned by the hon. Member for Rotherham; namely, people who are unemployed, including the long-term unemployed. I confirm that all those who are long-term unemployed—in other words, those who are unemployed for more than a comparatively short period, a week or fortnight—will be eligible for the subsidy as long as they are on supplementary benefit. The hon. Gentleman knows from his experience that the period before which a regular payment is instituted varies. It can be as short as a week, sometimes rather more. Those who are on benefit for more than a very limited period will qualify, and they will include the long-term unemployed. In those cases employment exchanges are issuing declaration forms. In some areas the exchange will next week issue the token also. In other areas the tokens will be issued by the local social security office.
  The other group of people are those who are receiving regular payments of supplementary benefit by Giro cheque. In their cases tokens are being issued direct by the local social security office. Other people will begin to receive qualifying benefit after the butter scheme starts, and they will be issued with tokens by their local social security offices.
  Regulation 5 provides that if a retailer submits to the Secretary of State a valid butter token which is received by selling butter at subsidised prices he will be entitled to payment of 5p for that token. Participation by retailers will be voluntary, but the Government hope that they will be prepared to co-operate and help their customers by operating the scheme.

  1689
  The hon. Member for Barrow-in-Furness referred to a printing error in Regulation 6(4). I am grateful to him for pointing it out, and I apologise for the mistake. The word "if" should read "it".
  Mr. O'Malley: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the information which he has given about supplementary benefit recipients who do not have order books, and about the availability of the tokens to the unemployed. Why are the dependants of strikers to be discriminated against, as we are told they are in the notes to editors accompanying the Press notice issued by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on 7th May?
  Mr. Dean: Anyone in receipt of the family income supplement will be entitled, but we have endeavoured to distinguish, as I think is right and proper, between people who are on continuing in benefit and people who are on benefit for a very short period. The Government hold to the view that in general benefit should be paid in cash and not in kind so that the recipients, as with the rest of the community, may buy goods which they prefer.
  It is unfortunate that we have had from the Opposition a seeming desire to deny to supplementary beneficiaries a benefit to which they are entitled under the EEC arrangements. It is on that basis that I commend the arrangements to the House.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: The Question is—
  Mr. O'Malley: On a point of order. Mr. Deputy Speaker. I realise the limitations of the power of the Chair, but may I through the Chair bring that question to the attention of the Minister.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): No, I am afraid not. A point of order is something which I must be able to deal with myself. If the hon. Gentleman will address me in those terms I will see what I can do.
  Mr. O'Malley: May I, through the Chair, put a question to the Minister?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: No, that is quite impossible. The hon. Gentleman may put the question to me.
  Mr. English: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. May I have the leave of the House to speak again, as there is still five minutes left before the close of the debate?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: No. The House objects.
  Mr. O'Malley: I think that a situation has arisen which the Minister would not deliberately seek. May I, through the Chair, ask if the Minister may be requested to answer the questions about take-up and administrative costs, because I think that he has overlooked them?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: The hon. Gentleman cannot ask the question through the Chair. I am afraid that I must now put the Question.
  11.26 p.m.
  Mr. Peter Shore: Surely we are entitled to continue the debate until one-and-a-half hours have expired. As one who has not so far had the fortune to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, may I make a short submission to the Minister?
  Given the definitions in the Community document from which the regulations derive of the categories which are to benefit from this subsidised butter, why have the Government limited the application of the benefit to those who are in receipt of means-tested benefits in Britain?
  That may be the proper and inevitable interpretation of what the Brussels Commission meant in its superior legislation and superior wisdom, but the House would like to know what steps the Government took, first, to ascertain from the Commission in Brussels whether this interpretation is the correct one and, secondly, if that interpretation is correct, what arguments they brought to bear upon the Commission to make it change its mind. Whatever the objections may be to payments in kind as against payments in cash, what is objectionable are payments in kind that discriminate sharply between those who are in receipt of means-tested benefits and those who are not.
  A different attitude would be found in the country and the House if a scheme of subsidised butter—however absurd the underlying policy that produced a surplus —were to apply to the whole category of

  1691
  recipients of social security benefits, rather than to those who have to show proof and evidence under threat of penalty that they are recipients of means-tested benefits. This is still, I hope, the House of Commons to which hon. Members are elected to represent the British people. The Brussels Commission does not represent the British people—it is not an elected body. I invite the Minister, in the few minutes that remain, to answer the question.
  Question put and negatived.

  GOVERNMENT TRADING FUNDS [MONEY]
  Queen's Recommendation having been signified—
  Resolved,
  That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to enable certain services of the Crown to be financed by means of trading funds established in pursuance of orders made by the responsible Minister with Treasury concurrence, and for other purposes, it is expedient to authorise—

  (a) the issue out of the National Loans Fund, by way of loan, of sums required for the operations of any Crown service which are to be financed by means of a trading fund arising from the appropriabut so that—

  (i) there is to be a limit on the amount by which the total indebtedness of a trading fund so established to the National Loans Fund may at any one time exceed the original debt of the trading fund arising from the appropriation to it of Crown assets and liabilities; and

  (ii) the aggregate of these limits in force in respect of all trading funds established under the Act is not to exceed £250 million at any one time;

  (b) the charge on, and issue out of, the Consolidated Fund of sums due from the Treasury as payment for coin withdrawn from circulation, if a trading fund is established for the Mint; and

  (c) all such payments into the Consolidated Fund or the National Loans Fund as may result from provisions of the said Act of the present Session or orders under it.— [Mr. Nott]

  ADJOURNMENT
  Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Gray.]

  MARKET HARBOROUGH (BYPASS)
  11.30 p.m.
  Mr. John Farr: I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for having come here at this late hour to listen to my plea for the early commencement of a bypass in Market Harborough.
  Market Harborough is a town of great antiquity and the village of Bowden, which comprises part of Market Harborough, was mentioned in the Domesday Book. The first record of a market being held in Market Harborough was as long ago as the year 1204, which was 769 years ago.
  In that period, as my hon. Friend will be aware, the town has been transformed from a fairly sleepy little agricultural village to a bustling industrial area. It is true to say that the town has grown apace because it has recently been selected as the headquarters for the new district council that will come into existence next year and will comprise a number of adjacent rural and urban district councils.
  Market Harborough—because of the wisdom of those who have governed the place, because of good luck, or for whatever reason—has been fortunate enough to preserve the valuable heritage of the past in some precious architecture of differing types. I shall not weary the House with a long list of the historic relics and antiquities that exist in the town. Suffice it to say that there are two notable edifices—the parish church, which goes back to 1300, and the old grammar school, which anybody who passes along the A6 cannot fail to notice because it still rests on the stilts on which it was placed in 1604. One can see it alongside the heavy traffic that rumbles by on the main A6 road.
  The town, as well as growing considerably, has a sizeable industrial activity on its own account. Many large industrial companies manufacture in Market Harborough, and many firms manufacture various internationally-known articles of women's clothing, processed foods, batteries, electric vehicles and numerous other enterprises.
  Apart from the bustle and activity generated by the people who live and

  1693
  work in Market Harborough, we must consider the fact that the town lies at the heart of an interchange between two great national traffic routes. We have the A6, beside which many of our ancient buildings rest and where much of our delightful Georgian architecture can be seen. The A6 runs through the square from Leicester and out to Kettering, and from the east to the west we have the road that serves the heavy industrial town of Corby and other eastern towns, and right through Market Harborough to Lutterworth on the A247.
  One of the reasons prompting me to raise this matter tonight was the fact that since I last raised it by correspondence with the Minister I have become aware, from the reply that he gave to Questions that I tabled to him the other day, that he is not fully aware of the facts relating to the situation in Market Harborough.
  It is the firm belief that any idea of bypassing Market Harborough has been pigeonholed by the Ministry for some time. I say that advisedly, because as long ago as the 1930s a scheme was produced. It was a very tentative scheme, but it reached the stage at which the local planning authority agreed upon a tentative route and controlled planning consents accordingly. But that tentative route was abandoned years ago and today no firm route exists for a bypass for Market Harborough. No tentative route has ever been prepared by the Department of the Environment for submission to the Leicestershire County Council or the Market Harborough council for its consideration, even on a consultation basis.
  Perhaps that did not matter in the 1930s; perhaps it did not matter in the 1950s; but it matters greatly in the 1970s. The reason why it matters particularly today—and why the whole picture has been transformed—is that about a year ago—last autumn—the Ml-M6 link was opened, which markedly increased the east-west and west-east flow of traffic, particularly heavy goods traffic taking the route to the M1 and thence north-west on the M6 by the new link.
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Keith Speed): To get the record right—the Ml-M6 link was opened in May last year.
  Mr. Farr: It was opened in May last year. Nevertheless, the situation was transformed immediately. After the first few months, when people got used to the best way to make full use of this new route, the traffic built up.
  The Minister has a very difficult and unenviable task. He has been pressed by many people to provide bypasses in many parts of the country, and the way in which he can best discharge his responsibility end without hope of reward from him, let me say that I recognise that he discharges it in an admirable manner—is to be fed by the relevant statistics of vehicle flow, and so on, by efficient staff on an up-to-date basis, and then he must make his personal analysis and come to a decision. I am convinced that that is what he has done all over the country. He has to take account of various other matters of great importance, such as the circular issued by my right hon. Friend the former Minister on 15th July 1971 containing the criteria relating to historic towns.
  But the main need is to be in possession of up-to-date facts and figures before an up-to-date analysis can be made. It is because my hon. Friend has not these up-to-date figures that I am concerned to raise this matter tonight.
  On 18th June I asked my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment nine Questions relating to the Market Harborough bypass and various other matters. They took up nearly two pages of foolscap. In a brief, all-embracing reply of some 12 lines, my hon. Friend devoted five or six to saying:
  "The latest information on through traffic flows in the town is for June 1970…"
  But the figure has been transformed since May of last year, when the M1–M6 link was opened. It is a hopeless task for the Minister to attempt to say what place Market Harborough should enjoy in the national bypass queue without up-to-date information taking account of the hugely increased flow of traffic resulting from the opening of the M1–M6 link.
  My hon. Friend should charge himself with the responsibility of gaining this up-to-date information now. If he had the figures, I should not be pressing him to let us have at least a pilot plan showing a tentative route that might be considered. I think that he will be so startled by the way in which the traffic

  1695
  flow has increased since June 1970, bearing in mind especially the significance of the opening of the M1–M6 link, that he will act forthwith, which is what I wish him to do.
  I want the Market Harborough bypass added to the trunk road preparation pool now, with a view to early route agreement, land acquisition and commencement. We need a bypass running from the west of the town, bypassing the villages of Theddingworth, where another fatal accident occurred last month, and Lubenham, and bypassing Market Harborough to the north and east, thus taking the A427 west-to-east traffic and the A6 north-to-south traffic away from the town.
  I emphasise that we are prepared to discuss any proposals in Market Harborough. Any sign of activity from my hon. Friend's Department will be seized upon with great pleasure.
  I urge my hon. Friend to take this request seriously. I am not in the habit of making frivolous requests of any Minister in this House. I hope that my hon. Friend will respond to a plea that I have couched in terms as moderate as I can command.
  11.43 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Keith Speed): I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Harborough (Mr. Farr), first, for raising this important subject, which is of such great interest to his constituents. I thank him, too, for the way in which he has raised it. I take very seriously all that he has said, not only tonight but in his many Questions to me and my predecessor, and in the considerable number of letters that he has very properly written to my Department.
  I am well aware of the traffic problems in Market Harborough, not only from the correspondence and from the summary of the situation that my hon. Friend has just given us, but also from personal experience. My hon. Friend may know that I look out from my bedroom window in Warwickshire on to the green fields of Leicestershire. I travel not infrequently through Market Harborough, mostly from west to east. In fact, I passed through it on my way to Kettering only three weeks ago. So I have some personal
  1696
  knowledge of the problems to which he has referred.
  In many ways Market Harborough epitomises the problems of many towns of its size and character. It is a relatively small country town which, historically, has served a largely rural community. For this reason it is at the hub of a local road system, with little provision for internal or through traffic to avoid the town centre.
  Thus, there is the classic urban traffic conflict. In addition, Market Harborough was included by the Council for British Archaeology in its list of towns of historic interest.
  Two of the routes through the town are of more than local importance. First, the A6 trunk road runs north-south. This was formerly the main route from London to Leicester, Derby and the North-West of England. However, this important through traffic junction was largely removed with the completion of M1, first to Crick and then to Leicester and further north in 1964–65. In addition, the whole of the M1/M6 route from London to Carlisle has now been completed throughout for over a year. Timing is important. That is why I interrupted my hon. Friend. So the former strategic significance of the A6 route no longer exists. None the less, the road is still important for regional traffic between Kettering, Wellingborough and Leicester, and the A508 from Northampton joins this route in the town. As I have said, the A6 is a trunk road and, as such, the Secretary of State's responsibility—a responsibility which we fully recognise.
  The other main route, which I know rather better, is the A427, running east-west through the town. This is a principal road—a county responsibility—used by traffic from the West Midlands conurbation and the M6 to Peterborough and the east.
  Undoubtedly, the situation in Market Harborough would be worse—much worse—if the M1 had not been built. But this relief was afforded at a time when traffic generally was at a lower level than today and its existence is, I fear, no great consolation to those living, working or shopping in the town, who have to cope with the existing traffic. It was for this reason, because we recognised that on the face of it there was a problem, that

  1697
  Leicestershire County Council was asked last year to undertake a study into traffic in the town, and to make recommendations. The collection and processing of traffic data, even in a relatively small area such as this, takes time, and I am glad that my hon. Friend was prepared to wait till the report was completed before bringing the issues before the House. We have now had a little time—but only a little time—to look at and consider the report.
  Before turning to the report and its proposals, I should like to mention one other major consideration—and I hope my hon. Friend will not think that I am in any way trying to delay further any decision, though I fear that might be the result. I refer to the inclusion in the Secretary of State's announcement of 23rd June 1971, about the trunk road strategy, that a feasibility study would be undertaken into the need for and possible route of a new link between the M1 near Northampton and the A1. This is an important study which has been accelerated and we now expect to be completed by the end of this year. But a major factor in including this proposal in the 1971 announcement was the clear need to relieve the existing cross-country routes between M1 and A1 in South Leicestershire, Northamptonshire, Bedfordshire and Huntingdonshire. These are principally the routes through Northampton and Bedford and the A427 through Market Harborough.
  The report on traffic problems in Market Harborough was received by the Department at the end of April and I would like to thank Leicestershire County Council for preparing it for us. It has been studied and we have formed some preliminary—I stress "preliminary"—views. Briefly, the report explains how the main routes meet in the square in the centre of this historic town and how the conflicting traffic movements create congestion and delay.
  Traffic on both the A6 and A427 routes has grown steadily in recent years. The latest figures taken in August 1972—this is information that I have received since I answered my hon. Friend—show traffic volumes on the A6 of 12,500 vehicles per day north of the town centre and 5,200 vehicles south of the town centre, and on the A427 of 5,700 vehicles
  1698
  west of the town centre and 7,000 east of the town centre. Most of this traffic is not by-passable. It has business in the town and the provision of bypasses would not help. This is a point I want to emphasise.
  Very often people assume that the provision of a bypass is the answer to all traffic problems. In some cases—such as a small village on a busy main road—this can be so, but in most towns a bypass is at most a very partial solution. It will still leave all the town's own traffic and that from outside that has its destination there. If there is still a problem, this must be tackled in other ways—for example by inner relief roads or by measures of traffic restraint. I do not want to detract from the value of bypasses in any way. By getting through-traffic —especially heavy traffic—out of a town, the way is made clear for the town to solve its own residual problems without regard to the needs of through traffic. This is particularly important for historic towns such as Market Harborough. But none the less the extent of the residual problems must be borne in mind.
  In this case, through traffic makes up about 25 per cent. of the total traffic in the town and the report considers that a new road around the north and east of the town, forming a bypass to both the A427—including Lubenham—and A6 routes would attract this proportion of total traffic, that is, about 8,500 vehicles per 12-hour day, which might be expected to grow to 13,000 vehicles by 1981 and 16,000 by 1991. An alternative mentioned in the report would be the provision of a north-south bypass of A6 only.
  The report also considers the need for an inner relief road in the town. Such a scheme is certainly not a substitute for a bypass—it would aim to deal with the residual traffic problem that I mentioned a few moments ago. As such, I am sure that consideration of it must take place in the context of the draft district plan which was published about a year ago, and which must now await the preparation of the county structure plan and its approval by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.
  My hon. Friend will know that the advantages and disadvantages of individual schemes cannot be the only factor in their selection for further work. My hon. Friend was kind enough to refer to

  1699
  the way in which my right hon. Friend and I try to assess and reach decisions in these matters. If resources were unlimited this might be so, but as it is we must compare schemes and choose those that will provide the best return, in the widest sense, including environmental and historical considerations as well as economic ones, and I stress that. At the present time my hon. Friend will appreciate the significance of that. We have to be especially critical of any proposal making a new commitment on road expenditure, for reasons that will be obvious to the House.
  The fact is that the bypass proposals to which I have referred do not compare well with others already in preparation and it seems unlikely that we would be justified, under present circumstances, in providing anything on these lines until some time in the 1980s. But in saying that I should like to add two things, and they are important. First, our consideration of the report and the proposals is not yet complete, and I assure my hon. Friend that I am taking a close personal interest in our consideration of this. Secondly, before reaching a final view we must take into account the M1–A1 study to which I have referred. I know that any further delay will not please my hon. Friend, and will probably please his constituents even less, but I am sure that we would be most foolish to reach conclusions in this case without taking account of this other major study.
  My hon. Friend also mentioned the question of by-passes for Theddingworth and Lubenham. Lubenham is included in the A427 bypass recommendation of the report. I was extremely sorry to hear of the fatal accident at Theddingworth, and I can tell my hon. Friend that a scheme for bypassing this village is in the principal road preparation list. Work on the scheme is the responsibility of Leicestershire County Council, and I understand that the county expects to submit its proposals to the Department for firm programming this autumn. I assure my hon. Friend that I shall do my best to see that there is no undue delay in giving an answer to that firm programme as soon as we receive it.
  I am sorry that I cannot be more helpful to my hon. Friend, despite the intense pressure that he has put behind the case for the bypass scheme. I know how
  1700
  important it is to my hon. Friend and to his constituents but, as I have said, and I repeat, we have not yet reached final views.
  Mr. Farr: People in Market Harborough and the surrounding district are prepared to help and to wait for an analysis of a possible A1–M1 link. People would think it reasonable to wait for a few months for that, but may I have an undertaking that if we accept that we shall not be persuaded to accept a further postponement because an analysis might be made of a possible new east-west highway from the east coast ports?
  Mr. Speed: I am about to make a suggestion which will help my hon. Friend here. We hope to receive the feasibility study on the A1–M1 link at the end of this year, and I have told my hon. Friend and my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Huntingdonshire (Sir D. Renton) that we hope to be able to make a public announcement about our intentions on the participation procedures or something of that sort in the spring of next year. So we are talking in finite terms, and this will have considerable impact on the road schemes in Market Harborough. But anything further for the east coast would not be germane and would be no reason for delay.
  Even though the decision on the link could prove controversial, it is important to take the decision as soon as possible. Once we know the corridor for such a link, we and the counties can consider the likely effects on towns and traffic in the area. This will supplement the information we have in the Leicestershire report for Market Harborough.
  My own view is that the Department and the counties concerned might commission the consultants who are doing the feasibility study and who will have all the information, to exploit that information by looking at the individual residual traffic problems for the local towns like St. Neots and, indeed, Market Harborough. This should not take a great deal of time. Then we would have something meaningful and worth while on which to base the final decision. Against that background, this is something which my hon. Friend and the local authorities would perhaps like to consider.
  I am aware that this means further delays. I am certainly aware that I have

  1701
  not given my hon. Friend and his constituents the answer they want, but I hope to have convinced him that we are now working on much more up-to-date information and that the feasibility study will be immensely important not only to Market Harborough but to other parts of my hon. Friend's constituency and those of other hon. Members in the area. I hope that this suggestion will commend itself to hon. Members and the local authorities. It is one that we would want to pursue urgently if it does.
  1702
  With the final assurance that I am keeping in close touch with all these developments, the final analysis of the Leicestershire report and obviously the decisions that we will have to take on the link, I hope that my hon. Friend will realise that, although I cannot yet give the answer he wants, we are still bearing very much in mind his point of view and those of his constituents.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Adjourned accordingly at two minutes to Twelve o'clock.

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Preamble
The House met at half past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Lichfield.

LORD KEARTON
Sir Christopher Frank Kearton, Knight, O.B.E., having been created Baron Kearton, of Whitchurch in the County of Buckingham, for life—Was, in his robes, introduced between the Lord Caccia and the Lord Trevelyan.
BARONESS SHARPLES
Pamela Sharples, widow of Sir Richard Christopher Sharples, K.C.M.G., O.B.E., M.C., having been created Baroness Sharpes, of Chawton in the County of Hampshire, for life—Was, in her robes, introduced between the Lord Maclean and the Baroness Northchurch.

CHANNEL TUNNEL PROJECT TIMETABLE
2.57 p.m.
LORD MOLSON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will state explicitly the reasons why they have fixed a timetable for decisions about the Channel Tunnel which does not give adequate time for the study of the still unpublished papers on this issue.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT (BARONESS YOUNG): My Lords. the timetable is that foreshadowed in Agreement No. 1 which was signed last October by the British and French Governments with the Companies, copies of which were made available to the House last November. The main results of the studies have now been published.
LORD MOLSON: My Lords, may I ask whether my noble friend realises that although in the Green Paper it was promised that further studies would be made available early in the summer, by June 5 (when a conference was held by the Royal Society of Arts on this subject) none of the promised studies of economic costs and benefits, the existing Tunnel modes, road and rail connections, the implications for the balance of payments and for the interaction with Map-line airport had been published? Further, is my noble friend aware that one of those which have been subsequently published, The Channel Tunnel: A United Kingdom Transport Cost/Benefit Study, which was published on some day between June 16 and 25, was stated to be not available in the Stationery Office yesterday?
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, my understanding of the position is that the one study to which the noble Lord has referred which has not been published—that from the British Railways Board—will be published very shortly. I am sorry that my noble friend was unable to obtain a copy of the transport cost/benefit study, because my information is that this had been published and was available to members. However, I will lock into this matter further.
LORD MOLSON: My Lords, does my noble friend really consider that this provides ample time for discussion on this matter when the Government have said they intend to take a decision before July 31?
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, I recognise that there is concern about this matter. Perhaps I should say that the position regarding the decision is as stated by my right honourable friend in another place. I will quote what he said:
"It is possible under the agreement to put off signing until November 15. If the Government's decision were affirmative, we would announce it and introduce a Bill before the summer Recess."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Commons 15/6/73.]
LORD DAVIES OF LEEK: My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that those of us who have taken an interest in some depth in this problem now fear that there are probably only 20 working days left in this Session and that no full analysis of these costs is available to us? In view

1973
of the fact that the Minister for the Transport Industries said that it could be in November, why should we hurry in this way and rush out all this documentation without a proper study having been made by Parliament?
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, as I think was recognised by the noble Lord, Lord Molson, there have been three major publications, and the Green Paper on this subject, all of which were published at dates between May 15 and June 18. There will of course be a White Paper, and this will be published before the Recess.
LORD POPPLEWELL: My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that many other people who have been taking a keen interest in this project over a number of years, welcome the decision of the Government to go ahead? Can the Parliamentary Under-Secretary confirm, having regard to the long term notice that has been given of developments and projects concerned, that all papers, maps, drawings and suchlike are now going to be available for exhibition to Peers and Members of the House of Commons in the Grand Committee Room next week? Is not this ample time to encourage the Government to make their final decision to go ahead and get on with the job?
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Popplewell, and confirm what he has said.
LORD AVEBURY: My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that it is not enough to say that noble Lords, or Members of another place, have time between now and the end of July to read the vitally important documents published at intervals between the middle of May and the middle of June? We should also have the opportunity of considering the views expressed by the important interests affected, or possibly affected, by the Channel Tunnel which they will take some time to produce. We want to have the opportunity of considering not just the matter of documents published by the Government, but a response to be made to those documents by external interests. That is quite impossible in the time scale laid down if we are to reach a decision by July 31.
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, I have already recognised that this is a matter which has caused concern. But this House had the opportunity to debate the Green Paper early in May.

N.A.T.O. MINISTERIAL MEETING
3.3 p.m.
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they can make a Statement on the deliberations at the recent NATO Ministerial meeting at Brussels.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE (LORD CARRINGTON): My Lords, I attended the Ministerial meeting of the Defence Planning Committee of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, which was held in Brussels on June 7. With your Lordships' permission, I am arranging for the Final Communiqué to be published in the OFFICIAL REPORT. In common with my colleagues, I reaffirmed the continuing support of Her Majesty's Government for the Alliance as the instrument of our collective security. We reviewed the progress that had been made towards the achievement of our objectives, including the work of the Euro-Group, and had a useful exchange of views on the tasks now confronting us, including those relating to measures designed to lead to the improvement of East/West relations. Her Majesty's Government very much value these discussions, and will continue to play a constructive part in them.
Following is the Final Communiqué referred to:
The Defence Planning Committee of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation met in Ministerial Session in Brussels on Thursday, 7th June, 1973, for its regular Spring meeting.
2. Ministers discussed the state of Allied defence in the light of the current political and military situation. Recalling with satisfaction the success with which NATO has safeguarded the freedom of their countries and has established the stable conditions under which the quest for better relations with the East can safely be pursued, they reaffirmed the confidence of their Governments in the principle of collective security embodied in the Alliance, and their determination to support it by all means in their power. They welcomed the increasing contacts between East and West;

1975
the ongoing SALT negotiations; the progress made towards the holding of a Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe; and the prospects for an early start to substantive negotiations on Mutual and Balanced Force Reductions.
3. They noted, however, that despite these developments the Warsaw Pact continues to maintain forces of a size and character greatly in excess of those needed for purely defensive purposes. Ministers received a briefing on the most recent developments in the capabilities of these forces, which confirmed that a formidable programme of the modernisation and re-equipment is continuing with unabated momentum. They noted in particular the strengthening of Soviet forces facing NATO: in the strategic nuclear forces, in the land and air forces and in the increased striking power and world-wide deployment of the Soviet Navy. In this respect, they reaffirmed that NATO must continue to provide a firm defence posture, from which a genuine and lasting détente can be negotiated.
4. Against the background of the increasing strength of Warsaw Pact forces, Ministers reveiwed the present defensive capabilities of the Alliance in the context of a further report on the Allied Defence Problems in the 1970s (AD 70). This report summarised the progress made during the past two years in improving the effectiveness of NATO'S land, sea and air forces in each region and also identified the areas where further improvements were still required. In the course of this discussion, Ministers reviewed the special problems of the Northern and Southern Regions including the Mediterranean. They undertook to concentrate their current efforts on the improvements recommended, taking account of the need, recognised at their December meeting, to allocate more resources for the modernisation and re-equipment of NATO forces. In this connection, they noted United States proposals for measures of force improvement and agreed that these should be studied by the Defence Planning Committee in Permanent Session within the framework of AD 70.
5. Also in the context of AD 70, Ministers reviewed the joint defence programmes of NATO (e.g., Infrastructure, Communications and Civil Preparedness) with a view to ensuring adequate support for the requirements of combat forces. Fresh emphasis was placed on the increased need to improve co-operation in logistics and in armaments research, development and production. They expressed their satisfaction with the substantial progress made in establishing procedures and facilities to enable the North Atlantic Council and the NATO Defence Planning Committee to carry out their rôles in times of crisis.
6. Emphasising that public support is a fundamental condition of the entire defence effort of NATO, Ministers drew attention to the vital need to foster understanding of its aims and policies among the peoples of every country of the Alliance.
7. The Ministers noted with satisfaction the progress made towards tax-free comparison of Infrastructure bids. They invited the Defence Planning Committee in Permanent Session to prepare appropriate recommendations for the
1976
development of the NATO common Infrastructure programme covering the period 1975–1979, for review in December 1973.
8. Ministers welcomed the report of the Conference of National Armaments Directors, noted with satisfaction the new initiatives being taken to provide greater armaments co-operation, and agreed on the need for continuing high level attention and effort to be devoted to these activities in the countries of the Alliance.
9. Ministers received a report by the Chairman of the Eurogroup Ministers of Defence on the further progress made in measures of practical co-operation, particularly in the fields of training and equipment procurement. They welcomed the continuing work of the Eurogroup to strengthen the European contribution to Alliance defence.
10. Ministers discussed the practical implications of negotiations on Mutual and Balanced Force Reductions and stressed that the NATO objective remained the maintenance of undiminished security at lower levels of forces. They reiterated their conviction that unilateral action on the part of countries of the Alliance to reduce or withdraw forces would erode the conditions of stability essential to the negotiation of a satisfactory agreement. In this connection Ministers welcomed the reaffirmation by the United States that, given a similar approach by their Allies, they would maintain and improve their forces in Europe and not reduce them except in the context of an East/West agreement.
11. Ministers agreed to a proposal by the Netherlands Minister of Defence that a study should be undertaken of the possibilities of specialisation in the Central Region by interested countries; they invited the Defence Planning Committee in Permanent Session to initiate such a study without delay, and to submit a report with recommendations to them at their next meeting.
12. Ministers recalled that in the past they had acknowledged that member nations are entitled to bring to the attention of the Alliance any special problems arising from balance of payments deficits resulting from military expenditures for collective defence, and had recognised that the solidarity of the Alliance can be strengthened by co-operation between members to alleviate them. In this context they took note of a statement by the United States Secretary of Defense Designate on the balance of payments problems which arise from the maintenance of United States forces in NATO Europe and directed the Permanent Representatives to study these issues and offer whatever recommendations seemed appropriate.
13. In the light of these discussions, Ministers gave guidance to the NATO Military Authorities on the political, military, economic and technological background to force planning for the period up to 1980. This guidance, which is issued periodically, is intended to ensure that forward defence planning in the Alliance is continuously adapted to changes in the political and military situation, and accords with the level of resources which each country is able to contribute to the common defence.
14. Finally, Ministers identified a number of strategic issues affecting planning in the longer term, and agreed to consider them further with a view to discussion at a future meeting.
15. The next Ministerial meeting of the Defence Planning Committee will be held in Brussels in December 1973."
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, I am grateful for the answer which the Secretary of State for Defence has furnished to your Lordships' House. Would he make a further comment on the substance of what occurred at that Conference? Can he make a comment on the submission and report made by Admiral Poser in which he indicated there was a vast inferiority in NATO as compared with the Soviet Union forces and the Warsaw Pact forces; and also the delivery of a report to Mr. Schlessinger, the American Secretary of State for Defense, and his comment that before we enter into negotiations we must ensure that we negotiate from strength?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, in the intelligence briefing given by the Admiral it was reaffirmed by the authorities in NATO that there is certainly no evidence that the military threat to the NATO Alliance is diminishing; indeed, assessments point to the opposite conclusions. I agree with the noble Lord and Mr. Schlessinger that we cannot afford to relax our efforts.
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, let me ask a further question of the Secretary of State for Defence. If we cannot afford to relax our efforts, what is to be done in order to implement the propositions that have been made by the United States Government that we should strengthen our defence, which means increases in manpower and provision for more modern conventional equipment?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, as the noble Lord will know, Her Majesty's Government have indeed strengthened their defence effort and have been contributing more to the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation over the past few years. It It has been my task—and I have tried to do it—to encourage my colleagues in NATO to do the same. If the noble Lord will read the reports of the Euro-Group, and note the significant improvement there has been in the contribution and the level of contribution made by European
1978
countries over the past few years, he will see there has been some success.
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, is that not really the point at issue? I apologise for pressing the matter further, but this is a subject of considerable interest to this country, to NATO and to the security of Europe. Does the Secretary of State realise that I am well aware that the United Kingdom has made a substantial contribution? Is he also aware that by comparison his colleagues in NATO have not made a substantial contribution? The last financial provision was negligible in comparison to what is required in order to provide a substantial conventional defence.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, we must have regard to the realities of the situation. On the last occasion but one when the Euro-Group met we pointed out the increase in the level of the European contribution, and there was an increase in the level of defence expenditure over the Euro-Group countries as a whole of over one billion dollars.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, the noble Lord made an incidental reference to East/West relations. Can he say whether this Ministerial Conference took into account the immediate meeting of the European Conference for Security and Co-operation, and the agreement about the Vienna Conference on armament reduction on both sides? Did the Ministerial Conference regard those as the alternative to mounting armaments in Europe?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, of course the two Conferences to which the noble Lord referred were the central topic of the meeting. I hope, as does the noble Lord, that both these Conferences will lead not only to increased détente but to a reduction of the forces in Europe. Until such time as there is evidence that this happens, I do not think that we can afford to relax.
BARONESS GAITSKELL: My Lords, in supporting my noble friend Lord Shinwell on this question, I wonder whether the noble Lord heard a broadcast last Saturday which had an outline of the arms that the Soviet Union are building up. It was quite shattering for many people like myself, who did not

1979
have any idea that this build-up was going on.
LORD CARRINGTON: Yes, my Lords, and that is why Her Majesty's Government have always said that it is necessary to see some evidence of a decline in the Russian effort before we relax our own effort. It is disturbing to see the continuing level of the Russian military effort in Europe.
LORD WIGG: My Lords, would not the Minister agree that the test of effective military strength is not figures in the balance sheet but the right amount of fire power at the right place at the right time? If that standard is applied, is it not a fact that the first country to renege on its obligations was Great Britain?—for it was a Conservative Foreign Secretary, Sir Anthony Eden, who undertook to keep four divisions on the European land mass until the end of the century and that promise was never honoured; there was never any intention of honouring it. And is it not now a fact that we have unilaterally disarmed to the extent that when we go to Vienna to negotiate the Soviet strength is at the highest point compatible with their economic needs whereas ours, for political reasons, is at its lowest?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I think to go back into history at this time is not particularly helpful. I think that what we must do is to look at the realities of the situation. As to the level of the effort made by this country (I think the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, said this), I do not think when one looks at the proportion of our gross national product which we spend on defence, and that of other countries, we have anything to be ashamed of.
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, in view of the intervention of my noble friend Lord Brockway, may I ask the Minister of Defence whether he is aware of what I am driving at; namely, that if we are to enter into this M.B.F.R. Conference, which suggests that we can produce balanced forces in Europe, we have to be mightly careful? And I ask whether the noble Lord is aware that I am warning the Government to be very cautious in their approach when they enter this Conference.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, as is so often the case on these occasions nowadays, the noble Lord and I are driving in the same direction.

B.E.A. WEST LONDON AIR TERMINAL
3.12 p.m.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, as B.O.A.C. intend to retain the check-in service at their air terminal in Buckingham Palace Road believing this to be of value to customers, and as the number of passengers using similar facilities at the B.E.A. West London Air Terminal in Gloucester Road is in excess of one million, they will recommend that consideration be given to amalgamating the two check-in services at the West London Air Terminal seeing that the two airlines are now grouped together as British Airways.
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD DRUMALBYN): My Lords, I shall gladly draw the attention of the British Airways Board to the noble Baroness's suggestion, but it is essentially for the Board to decide whether such arrangements would be practicable and desirable.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, why is it that this Government are adamant in refusing any help to consumers at all in this very long-drawn-out affair? Does the Minister remember that the decision to withdraw the check-in facilities at Gloucester Road was a unilateral one of B.E.A.? Does he recall that from that Front Bench, that Government Bench, travellers were guaranteed that their buses would catch the planes? Does he recall that when B.E.A. withdrew that guarantee they created a false impression in saying that the reason was the delayed flights owing to the late arrival of buses, and that I proved this false both in this House by statement and in writing? Finally, at this moment, might I ask the Minister

1981
whether he knows that the B.E.A. management at present are creating the impression that no check-in service exists at Gloucester Road, so that when we do get an inquiry the numbers will show a substantial drop? And, as the Minister, Lord Drumalbyn, leads in this House on the Fair Trading Bill, in that capacity alone does he condone such dishonest tactics?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, the noble Baroness in the guise of questions has made one or two assertions. One piece of evidence does not prove a case. On the main question that she asked, this is clearly a matter for the Corporation to decide, and the Government are satisfied that before B.E.A. reached their decision about the West London Air Terminal they carefully considered what would be in the best interests of their passengers as a whole. They have tried to balance the interests of the minority who check in at the West London Air Terminal against the interests of the majority who do not.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, is there not another Authority that ought to be consulted, the Airports Authority? Would the noble Lord remember what he said in yesterday's debate about the appalling congestion at Heathrow? Would the noble Lord also not agree that congestion occurs at the check-in centre at Heathrow? And would the noble Lord not agree that, if there is to be this further increase in numbers because those who now check in at Gloucester Road will do so at Heathow, what is a bad position will be made quite deplorable?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, as the noble Lord will be aware, this matter has been examined by METRA and the British Airports Authority are satisfied that they will be able to cater for B.E.A. passengers who decide to go direct to London Airport.
BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEY: My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he is aware that it would be of very great convenience to all air travellers if B.E.A. and B.O.A.C. proceeded from the same place, that is to say the B.O.A.C. Terminal near Victoria Station and the bus routes; that there is ample room
1982
behind the B.O.A.C. building to spread over the Southern Railway at Victoria Station, and that this really would be an admirable solution for everybody?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, that is a slightly different suggestion from the one that is put in the Question, which was that the B.E.A. West London Air Terminal at Gloucester Road should be used. I think it is a suggestion that has already been examined, but I shall again convey what my noble friend has said.
BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEY: My Lords, while thanking the Minister for that answer may I add this? It has perhaps been studied but not sufficiently studied, and if Gloucester Road is to remain simply as a collecting point (and not for luggage), really could this question be considered again, as the two services are going to be amalgamated? As I said, with the railway, the buses and everything together it would be a very great help.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I shall certainly convey that suggestion, but I must repeat that it is a matter for the B.A.B. to decide.
LORD SLATER: My Lords, would the Minister agree from the statement he has made that if Gloucester Road ceases to be a checking-in point everything will depend upon passengers getting to Heathrow in the first place? If such is the case then it is absolutely shocking because the people who travel—
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Question!
LORD SLATER: Is the Minister aware—I get fed up with some of these interjections—
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Order!
LORD SLATER: Well, my Lords, I will catch some of these people out some of these days. Is the Minister aware that the people who travel abroad belong not only to the Metropolis or the surrounding area but come from all over the British Isles, and they use Gloucester Road as the point of departure to catch their planes at Heathrow? Therefore, further consideration ought to be given to this matter because there is a form of transport—
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Question!
LORD SLATER: Is the Minister aware that there is a picking-up point at Gloucester Road for passengers travelling from Heathrow Airport to the North?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, these are all matters that have been taken into account by B.E.A. when they reached their decision. It is a matter for each airline to decide how far and on what conditions it provides services for its customers over and above its statutory duties and functions.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, might I ask the Minister whether he is aware that the METRA Report stated quite categorically that they had not been able to consider suggested closure of the West London Air Terminal check-in facilities as this was outside their terms of reference? So he was in error there. May I ask him, furthermore, whether he is aware that I received the new B.E.A. News to-day, and their new marketing policy is "putting people first"? Now this has come at a very apt moment. So if we are going to put people first, might I ask the Minister whether, as there is to be a large increase in passengers, plus the use of larger aeroplanes such as the TriStar, he does not see that it would greatly facilitate and ease the burden at Heathrow if we had a town terminal, besides offering a better service to passengers everywhere?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, with regard to the second part of the question, this is a matter that the Board has to weigh up for itself; it is not a question of what I see or do not see. As to the paper that the noble Baroness held up in her hand, what we are really considering here is whether some people can be put more first than others.
LORD MOYNE: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that since Aer Lingus began checking-in at Heathrow, the bus starts one and a half hours before the departure of the plane? Is this to be taken as any indication of the latitude of extra time necessitated and the length of time which will be necessary when checking-in is done only at the airport?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I take note of the point, but of course it will still be possible for people to go
1984
from the West London Air Terminal. The only point is that they will not check in there.
LADY RUTHVEN OF FREELAND: My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he will put before the British Airways Board the very strong views held by this House? Then perhaps they will listen to us.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I am sure that the British Airways Board will take note of the feelings that have been expressed in the House to-day.
LORD O'NEILL OF THE MAINE: My Lords, is the Minister aware how wise I was to withdraw my Question, leaving it to the noble Baroness, Lady Burton of Coventry, on the other side of the House? And is the Minister aware that a Member of the other side of the House is criticicising a nationalised industry?
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether, when he makes his next speech in favour of Maplin airport he will bear in mind all this evidence of discontent, inconvenience and delay associated with Heathrow?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, obviously if a facility that exists is withdrawn people are going to be discontented about it; but the British Airways Board have to consider the situation as affecting all their customers and the efficiency of the running of their own services.
LORD DAVIES OF LEEK: My Lords, finally, is the noble Lord aware—drawing his attention to this crush—that when the Channel Tunnel is built it will be worse still?
LORD GORE-BOOTH: My Lords, may I put this in one other way, for the noble Lord to refer to the appropriate authority? If I have followed recent debates rightly we have a situation now where there is booking at the West London terminal; there will then be a situation where there is a blank; there will then be a railway which hesitates to go into the prairies beyond Hounslow and certainly to pay very much attention to air passengers. Would not the noble Lord agree that all the dynamic and public spirited people engaged in this situation should be able to produce a more coherent result than we have at present?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I am sure this is just the sort of thing that the British Airways Board will set out to do.
BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY: My Lords, it does not do it. Will the Minister tell the House quite simply, if B.O.A.C. are to continue their check-in facilities, as has been stated, because they think these are valuable to passengers, what in the world (except red tape) is to prevent both airlines, as they are now British Airways, having the same town terminal?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, at the present time probably accommodation; but this is a matter for the two executive bodies to decide between themselves.

BRITISH/SOUTH AFRICAN JOINT NAVAL MANŒUVRES
3.22 p.m.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what arrangements have been made for joint manœuvres by the British and South African naval forces.
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, Her Majesty's ships calling at South African ports for rest and replenishment normally carry out routine exercises with South African maritime forces where this can conveniently be arranged. H.M.S. "Tiger" and H.M.S. "Dreadnought" with the frigate H.M.S. "Rhyl" and Royal Fleet auxiliaries will be engaging in exercises with South African maritime forces off the Cape when this squadron returns from its Far East deployment in late November this year. Such exercises are a regular feature of the co-operation which exists between the Royal Navy and the South African Navy under the Simonstown Agreement for the defence of the Cape sea routes.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask him, first, whether he is aware that joint action with a State practising apartheid is repugnant to many in this country and, I believe, to Her Majesty's Government?
1986
May I ask him, secondly, and more seriously, have we not reached a time, in view of the atmosphere of détente in the world, when Her Majesty's Government should consider raising on an international scale the whole issue of naval forces operating in distant seas? Cannot Her Majesty's Government support India and all the South-East Asian nations which demand the neutralisation of the Indian Ocean?
LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE: My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether it is not obvious that the well-being of all the black people in Southern Africa—perhaps in the whole of Africa—and their defence against subversion or, in the event of emergency, against war, depends upon our co-operation with the only powerful country in Southern Africa, namely South Africa?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I think these are two well known points of view which have been expressed in your Lordships' House on previous occasions, and no doubt will be expressed again. The exercises which have been going on for some considerable time under both Governments are in accordance with the Simonstown Agreement and relate to the defence of the sea routes, and they in no way represent support by Her Majesty's Government for the internal policies of South Africa. This has been made clear on a number of occasions.
With regard to the noble Lord, Lord Brockway's, second question, the importance, as I see it at any rate and as Her Majesty's Government see it, to this country of the Simonstown Agreement is such that the time has not yet come when we can join in a suggestion such as the noble Lord has made.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, may I just press that matter with a further question; namely, do Her Majesty's Government now realise that we are in a new world situation of great hope and detente, and cannot Her Majesty's Government begin to take the initiative for peace in the world by proposing that there should be some action about the limitation of naval forces, which would apply not only to the right of the Royal Navy to be in the Indian Ocean but also to the American navy in the Mediterranean?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, I think in a way we are really back to the last Question but one, when we discussed whether or not we should progress too quickly without having some regard to the likely consequences for the safety and security of this country. I myself would have thought at the present time there was quite enough going on, with the M.B.F.R. conference, the C.S.C.E. conference and SALT, and I think we had better really see how we get on there before we do anything else.
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, while sympathising with the attitude of my noble friend Lord Brockway, may I ask the Minister whether he would agree that one of the most significant developments in the New World to which he has referred has been the extraordinary expansion of the Russian navy as it has moved out of home waters into all the oceans of the world?
LORD CARRINGTON: Yes, indeed, my Lords; and this is one of the factors which one has to consider when dealing with a proposition such as the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, has put forward.
LORD SEGAL: My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether any alternative exists to the use of the Simonstown Naval Base along the whole route between Britain and the Far East, and whether the use of this base is likely to increase or diminish in the future?
LORD CARRINGTON: My Lords, the base has recently been used a great deal more than it would otherwise have been, as a result of the closure of the Suez Canal, and the Beira patrol, of course, has made it much more important from our point of view. Therefore I think it would be unlikely that we should find anywhere—if there was anywhere—so convenient as Simonstown.

E.E.C. INSTITUTIONS AND THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT
3.29 p.m.
LORD O'HAGAN LORD O'HAGAN rose to call attention to the institutions of the E.E.C., particularly the European Parliament; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, when I first put down this Motion on the Order Paper I had no expectation that it would come up so
1988
soon, and seeing the vigorous and lively mood that the House is in this afternoon I hope I shall not be too much of a Christian in the arena in the way that I am treated in what I am trying to do. It is rather more modest than some of the things that your Lordships have been asking for in Question Time. I am not trying to make a broad historical sweep or to give a great lecture on the development and future of the institutions in the Common Market. I am just making a report on what I have observed in nearly six months of working in one of the Community institutions, and using this experience to put some questions both directly to the Government and to the House as to what we should set as our priorities over the next few years in the evolution of these institutions. What are they now? And where do we want them to go? I do not think that this is a question which should be left to professors of European studies, because these institutions are going to affect us more and more in our daily lives, not only in the wide sweep of monetary union but also because we may find that the type of toothpaste that we like has been harmonised out of existence by some directive coming from the Commission. So it is just as well that we should think deeply about what we are in for. Change is very much in the air at the moment.
I should like to make it quite clear that I am not attempting to pre-empt or to rival the very important Report that is to come from the Select Committee on European Instruments, under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Maybray-King. His Report, and the debate on it, are parallel to rather than different from what I am trying to do to-day. We are both looking from different points of view at the way we should run our affairs inside the Community, and the way I would link the two debates would be to say that while the European Parliament—of which I am a member and where I go for about ten days every month—is still weak and flabby national Parliaments must be really strong in pursuing the vagaries and the weaknesses that are sometimes to be found in draft Community legislation.
May I start with the most European institution, which is the Commission? It has a good European name, in that it is not readily confusable with anything that

1989
we have here. Every time I go to Brussels I find there is something odd about it which I did not know before: either about the way it works, or the way it is selected, or about its powers. Its powers are extraordinarily wide, in that it is the only institution in the Community which is allowed to initiate proposals for legislation. That right of initiative is quite something. Also, in many circumstances it implements the legislation. So in that way it is a very fierce guardian of the Treaties of Rome. On its own, in certain limited circumstances, it can make up its own regulations and directives. It has all sorts of other aptitudes, so that Sir Christopher Soames, for example, is acting on behalf of the Community from time to time in negotiations with third countries or other world bodies, because the Commission has the job of acting as the negotiating organ of the Community institutions. We have a very mixed stew in the Commission. It is hard to see how they manage to resolve all these different tasks, especially when I discovered, to my surprise, that the total manpower of the Commission in Brussels is 8,000. All these tasks are being pursued for nine countries by 8,000 people. They are a very high-powered lot, and because they work under this intense pressure and are very closely linked to the European development of the Community as something new and different they are in a way the conscience of Europe at the moment, for they embody many of the most progressive and European forces that are represented either in the Parliament or elsewhere. But they find their power base inside the Commission today.
There are many things the Commission cannot do. It cannot raise revenue; it cannot act in foreign affairs on its own; and it has no power to approve major legislation. It is quite a hefty body, even though it is small, even though it is selected and run in what we might consider to be a peculiar way. The civil servants at the top levels are chosen on national quotas and the 13 Commissioners are also appointed by the member States—in practice, if not in theory—with more than one Commissioner for the larger member States. At the top, therefore, there is a type of Cabinet—we must take that word away quickly—a sort of collegiate body where they are all
1990
responsible for what each ether does; where everybody can interfere with each other's portfolio and where everybody is doing so all the time; and where they are strictly ruled by their headmaster, President Ortoli. They are a very coherent and dynamic group. But beneath them they have their own private Mafia in each case, five men whom the Community pays for, who are really handpicked to fight their way through all the rules and regulations to make sure that what the Commission wants is achieved.
These people are in constant productive conflict with the people who work within the Commission itself. The people who work in the Commission itself are of all nationalities: some are professors, some are technocrats and some are businessmen. They all get on in a ferocious but amiable way and are delighted to talk to any serious investigator who comes along to waste their time. It is extremely easy to find out what they are doing—at least it appears to be. That may be a subtlety that escaped me. It is, therefore, invigorating to go and visit them, because these are serious people who have lost their blinkers, have become European, and are working in a constructive way, on the whole, even after the recent arrival of the British civil servants at a lower level which has caused a little upset here and there.
I should like to know what plans the Government have to reinforce the Commission. Perhaps the noble Baroness, Lady Tweedsmuir of Belhelvie, can say what stance they take on this institution. Do the Government recognise that there is an article in the Treaty of Rome, Article 149, which was meant to increase the power of the Commission but which is a boomerang, because that article said that a Commission proposal going from the Commission to the supreme authority, the Council, could be altered only by a unanimous vote, which was anticipated to be very rare. As it is almost de rigueur that there is a unanimous vote all the time, something that was intended to strengthen the Commission actually weakens it; and as the intention of the Treaty of Rome is not being carried out, can the Government say how they would like to see that position rectified?
Speaking hierarchically, sitting above the Commission is the Council and they

1991
are the people towards whom the Commission is constantly lobbing these proposals. The Council is the oddest body of the Community. It is really very strange because it is not so much an organisation that goes on from day to day at the highest level but it is a landing-ground for parachutists. Ministers come in, make a decision and go out again—and that is the Council meeting. They have not been there before and they do not go there again for weeks or months. But the Council has a continuous existence, when in fact people who are top-level members of the Council are there only three or four days a month. It is hardly surprising that with this system of making decisions about the future of Europe these people do not get to grips with each other and think about the long-term problems.
In between these Ministers parachuting in and being catapulted out again, having come with a national remit in which they do not have a great deal of room to budge, there is all the work which is being done by people who are accountable to nobody. There is a whole staff. Each country maintains a permanent representative, an ambassador to the Community, with a team of people, a mini-Whitehall—the brightest of the bright from the major Departments—who are there all the time, waving our flag, to make sure that our national interests are not subverted by the others. But they have no political power. They cannot, when they are sitting round negotiating with each other, really change the cards in their hands, because they have to ring up home and say, "What do I do?"
With the two systems that operate there is real confusion; and, worse, there are congestion and endless delays. We regard the Council as something that exists; but in a normal way it does not. What it really consists of is a whole lot of very highly keyed-up officials who meet at Permanent Representative level, Ambassadorial level, twice a week, and deputy representative level twice a week, all day, or most of the day, and in hosts of other sub-groups. These are the people who are articulating our policy at the highest level in the Community, and they are answerable to nobody—or who are they answerable to? Perhaps the noble Baroness the Minister
1992
can say. Who can question whom, and where, about the activities of these people? Can she justify, for example, or explain to me, why it is thought necessary that 150 people should always be present at a meeting of the Council. Is this a good way to get dynamic decisions, to have this enormous number of people present all the time?
We must accept that this menacing farce (if I may use Mr. Foot's phrase) will continue for some time. But what alterations would Her Majesty's Government like to see in an ideal world? I was delighted to see that there was one institution of the Community which could actually tell the Council what to do: on June 11 the Court of Justice annulled a Council directive about their review of salary levels for the employees of the Council. I must say that I felt greatly reassured that the Court of Justice, about which I am afraid I know very little, did have enough authority to sit on the Council. I felt that this was a reassuring move.
The European Parliament's job is to fill the gaps the other institutions have left, and I have discovered that I have to make a big effort to forget Parliamentary traditions which I have read about or learned in your Lordships' House, because this is a very unusual sort of Parliament. There is no Government. Who is the Government? There is not one. So there is no sense of Opposition and Government supporters. We in the European Parliament have very few legislative powers, if any. We masticate away at the draft proposals that are sent to us, but because the constitutional position is very weak they are sent to us before the haggling between the Commission and the Council is finished. So when we come up with a view, after many labours in our committees about this or that, the view is almost always ignored, because we have no come-back. Our position, from the point of view of interfering, is very feeble.
What do we do with this strange body?—because I feel that, however weak it may be at the moment, and however anomalous the presence of people like myself, there is a need to stop the institutions of the Community being quite so remote from the ordinary peoples of the

1993
Community. Do the Government accept that there is a great disquiet and anxiety among all sections of opinion about the distance there seems to be between governors and governed. Do they not think that if this is repeated and exaggerated, and blown up on the European scale, it is a prescription for—though I hate to say this—at least something bordering on disaster. We see that there are these two bodies, who are to get more and more powers, because we are committed to economic and monetary union; we are committed to all sorts of things in the communiqué put out by the Heads of State last year.
If the Community, as a supra-national force is going to grow, is growing now, do the Government accept that the Parliament has to be made into something more real? For example, will the Government lend their weight to exploding the notion that the Community has a budget? The Community has no budget. The budget consists in theory of a large gamut of experience. A unilateral decision is made on agricultural prices once a year, in a way that is very removed from the Parliaments and the European Parliament, and that takes up 80 per cent. of the Community's funds. Even if my European Parliamentary colleagues and I are given more of a nibble at the so-called Community budget, and even if, under the Treaty of Luxembourg, we exercise, the year after next, our right to cut off the administrative budget of the Commission, to remove their secretaries and telephones and the like, we are very remote from the real power of the purse that the Community has; we have no way of attacking directly the hopeless confusion of money and policy that is the so-called Common Agricultural Policy. What support would the Government give—and this is very serious—to increasing the powers of the European Parliament over the purse strings of the Community? The Commission has come out recently with some elegant but trivial proposals for furbishing up what we have already. Would the Government stick up for the Parliament in expanding its powers in this field?
I do not claim to think that the Parliament would or could do everything for the Community. I do not see it as
1994
a whole selection of Euro-knights or Euro-white chargers, saving Europe for the Community, or anything as absurd as that. But surely these other institutions must be accountable to somebody. Surely their policies must be monitored. Surely their performances must be examined in a thorough and realistic way. Unless there is some body doing that job on behalf of the peoples of the Community, is the Community really assuming that human face of which the Paris communiqué makes so much play? The test of the Community's genuine desire to stop being a supra-national supermarket and become something which is at the service of its peoples is whether or not the European Parliament is pepped up and given a real job to do.
We in the European Parliament must improve ourselves. We could go on strike and refuse to be shunted around from one European country to another like an unwanted parcel. We should say, "This is where we stand". I do not know how we are going to do that, but I think it is a prerequisite for any serious activity on the part of the European Parliament. Would the United Kingdom Government lend any support to the idea?—because it is an illustration of the power of nationalism in the Community that it cannot agree on giving a stable and sensible home to the Parliament.
What nature should this new Parliament have? It must not be a suppliant or a dependant, or something that looks upon itself as grateful for every small bit of information and every favour in the way of minor legislation proposals. It should really see itself as a body which shows the human face that the Community is now meant to have. If it started to do that, it would in the long run be much easier for the other institutions to fulfil the policies to which, in the communiqué issued by the Heads of State, they are now committed. At the moment, the sleeping peoples of Europe lie, because all the implications of what is being done in their name have not yet burgeoned in their minds; but this will come, and they will need a bell-pull so that they can say, "My friends, shout about this one". If the other institutions are reluctant to hand this over I think it will be a very great pity.

1995
My Lords, I have tried in this introduction to give a factual if provocative account of some of the working methods of these institutions. We have got to examine them. The British love institutions: they are always inventing them; they are always thinking them up; and if they are not doing that they are altering those that they have already. Why cannot we go on in this way but in the European manner? If we do not go on in this way in the European manner we shall be missing out on one of our major contributions to the evolution of a truly united Europe. Can the noble Baroness go through Clause 15 of the Communiqué, where various proposals are made for the reinforcement of the institutions of the Community, and tell us to-day what position Her Majesty's Government hope to take? My Lords, I beg to move for Papers.
3.51 p.m.
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I should like to begin, if I may, by apologising in advance if it should be necessary for me to leave the Chamber before the end of the debate. I do this with great reluctance; I know it irritates your Lordships' House. I hope it will not be necessary, but if it is I hope to have the indulgence of the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, the noble Baroness, the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, and the rest of your Lordships' House. My Lords, I want to speak as briefly as possible, but before looking at the institutions which the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, has described in such a refreshing and provocative way, I think it is necessary to sketch in a little of the background, the framework, on which these institutions hang, and to see in the long term what kind of a Europe it is we want to see these institutions serving.
I believe that there is no halfway house in this matter. I, for my part, reject the Gaullist concept of the Europe of nation States. I do this not only because I believe that in general political terms the nation State is an obsolete concept. I believe its obsessive concerns with national sovereignty have been totally overtaken by modern developments in technology, in strategy, in communications and above all in the development of weapons of mass destruction. But whether there is universal agreement with this
1996
idea or not, I believe in any case that the nation State concept, the concept of a simple collection of sovereign nation States, the Europe des patries of General de Gaulle, simply will not work in Europe. My own belief is quite clear: I want to see a Europe politically and economically united and able to play a role in the world in which it is not dominated by or reliant upon the nuclear super Powers of the world.
I think, my Lords, it is no longer necessary to argue at any great length that the shape of the world is changing, that the familiar structure of the last quarter of a century with the two great super Powers dominating world affairs has now gone, and what is emerging, it seems to me, to take its place so far as the foregn policy of this country is concerned is, in a sense, two great international triangles—a triangle of confrontation between the United States, the Soviet Union and China; and a triangle of co-operation, again including the United States, but this time with Western Europe and Japan as the other two points of the triangle. This, of course, like all these attempts to reduce the world to geometric patterns, is vastly oversimplified. There are links between the triangles when, for example, Western Europe speaks to the Soviet Union of déetente or of force reduction. There is a dialogue between China and Japan, again between the two great triangles. There are attempts even to retain and return to the happy days of bilateralism when the affairs of the world were controlled and dominated by the two great nuclear super Powers—and I believe we were watching an attempt to perpetuate that state of affairs in the recent Summit meeting in Washington.
There is the Third World which has its problems also, but which does not come into that rather over-simplified schematic diagram. But even so, I believe that the theory of the two triangles is strong enough and valid enough to underline the need for Western Europe to be itself strong and politically united. We must evolve in Europe, I believe, common foreign policies—foreign policies towards the United States, China, the Soviet Union, towards Japan; foreign policies of a common kind about arms control, disarmament and all the other great international issues that face the world.

1997
I believe that Europe needs a common monetary policy, and also a common defence policy. Although we may still regard, as I indeed do, the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation as the framework for the defence of the West, I am resolved myself, and I believe many others with me, that in that future relationship Europe should not be a client State of anybody, nor should it be a kind of ants' nest of squabbling nation States, but a strong single element in the Alliance.
None of this, my Lords, can be achieved in my view without a very high degree of political unification indeed. Whether you want to call it federalism, or whatever name you want to put on it, seems to me to be largely a matter of semantics. Certainly in my view it goes far beyond any concept of a Europe of nation States. So it is in that context that I should like to spend a few minutes looking at the institutions which the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, has described to us, asking ourselves how we can achieve some of our long-term strategic aims for Europe through these Community institutions. I submit that we should be doing this in two stages: first, in a short-term stage which may cover the next five to 10 years, that is to say, for example, between now and 1984—a very significant date in many contexts. Then I believe that we should have a long-term plan. While we do not make many of the detailed mechanical deployments now and we do not attempt to abandon national sovereignty overnight in the way suggested by some opponents of the European Community idea—while I do not think any of this is necessary—I believe that we must have a long-term strategy for the European Communities and their institutions.
Let us look first of all for a few minutes at the short-term requirements. The noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, has asked the Government whether they can give their views on how these Community institutions should be changed and reformed; and I should like, if I may, to help to concentrate the mind of the Government by advancing a few modest proposals of my own. The Council of Ministers I should like to take first—not following the order of the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan. I believe that the Council of Ministers will never really operate effectively until it takes more and more
1998
of its decisions by a qualified majority. As your Lordships will know, at the moment it takes many of its decisions, especially any vote in which any national interest is at stake, on the principle of unanimity, that is to say each member of the Council of Ministers has a veto. Of course I recognise that if we move to universal acceptance of majority voting there will be times when the national interests will be damaged, or at least put at risk, and this we must bear in mind. But the present system inhibits any kind of action or any kind of progress at all, when every country, or its representative, "parachuting into the organisation", as the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, said very vividly, simply and solely vetoes anything that is not in the interests of his own national Government, quite irrespective of whether or not it is in the interests of Europe as a whole. Therefore, in the short term I should like to see the Council of Ministers adopting progressively the system of a qualified majority vote in all its important decisions.
The next institution that needs some careful and imaginative treatment is the Commission. The noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, was very complimentary about the Commission. He said that he had found it a very impressive body, as I believe it is, but I suggest that it has not really yet found out what its role is. I think that the Commission has to maintain a careful balance between, on the one hand, being just a crowd of faceless bureaucrats producing tons of unread paper and occupying themselves with minute and pettifogging detail and, on the other hand, being a collection of arrogant technocrats who believe that they are the people who control the future of Europe. I do not believe that the Commission has yet found its way between those two extremes.
This country has appointed to the Commission as Commissioners, two politicians of very high standing. There are other Commissioners who are able and politically adroit and of the highest international standing, and the President, M. Ortoli, is one of them. It is surely important, however, that the whole of the Commission should be of a similar high calibre, because if the Commission is going to operate at all it has to have a real political role; but that

1999
political role must be under the strict control of the only elected organisation in Europe, which is the European Parliament.
Here I come to the third of the institutions. Like the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, I will not deal with the European Court of Justice this afternoon, because I believe that that is an institution that is to some extent outside the terms of our debate. The European Parliament is potentially the most important of all these institutions. In passing, I should like to say a few words about the position of my own Party. Personally, I am sorry that the Labour Party has taken the decision not, for the time being, to be represented on the European Parliament, and I hope that it will change its mind. Having said that, I shall say no more about that subject but address myself, in the strict terms of the debate, to what I think should now be done in the European Parliament to strengthen it in the short term.
As always when dealing with Parliamentary bodies of this kind, we have to consider both the composition of the Parliament and its powers. So far as the composition is concerned, although I have not had personal experience of this, I do not believe that the present system can work indefinitely. It seems to me that the necessity for Members of your Lordships' House and the other place to be constantly rushing between Strasbourg and Westminster, Luxembourg and Westminster, and Strasbourg and Brussels, is really too much of a strain to ask anyone to submit to for an indefinte period. There are ways by which, even without changing the system, we could make life for these unfortunate tribunes of ours a great deal easier than it is now. I should have thought that there might be something to be said—although this may be interfering, or referring too closely to constitutional procedures—for considering some system of permanent pairing, or voting by proxy. Certainly the Government should consider doing something to make their logistic life a little easier. I should have thought that it was not beyond the bounds of possibility that some kind of official air travel could be placed at their disposal, instead of requiring them
2000
always to travel under their own arrangements by scheduled flights.
However, I believe that none of this is going to solve the problem in the long term. We have to change the system whereby Members of your Lordships' House and the other place are also Members of the European Parliament, or at least the present system under which we do that. There is of course the kind of plan reflected in the proposals put forward by my right honourable friend Mr. Michael Stewart, who has suggested that there should be two lists in this country; one list of Westminster M.P.s, and another list based on a regional suffrage of Strasbourg M.P.s who would, by some device, also be Members of the Westminster Parliament but who would, in fact, spend most of their time, if not all of their time, in the Strasbourg Parliament. I believe that we have to examine some plan of that kind very carefully in the short term.
I believe, too, that the size of the European Parliament has to be increased. The present strength of 198 is not a large enough Parliament to represent the whole of the European constituency. When the Parliament itself made some proposals in 1960 for increasing its size, it proposed that it should be increased to 426. That was for a membership of six countries. By extrapolation, this would work out at something like 500 or 600 Members of Parliament for a Community of Nine. This seems to me to be something like the size really needed for the European Parliament.
However, all this is tinkering with the problem, because I would remind your Lordships that Article 138 of the Treaty of Rome, from which the whole of the procedures and legislation of the European Community flow, calls for direct universal suffrage in accordance with a uniform procedure throughout the Community. That is a quite clear specification in the Treaty of Rome to which we, the members of the Community, have all acceeded. I should say, in passing, that I do not believe this to be a realistic short-term aim. I do not believe that in the kind of time frame that I have intimated (the next five or ten years), that we are going to be able to move, in some dramatic way, from a system of national elections directly to a system of European elections, with a single voting day, a

2001
universal suffrage, and European constituencies. This is much too complicated, and too much of an historic step to be taken in the short term. I believe that the national methods of election will have to serve us for some time yet—perhaps for another three or four Parliaments. But in the long term there will be need for European Parties to organise themselves across national frontiers, and it is only when that has been done that we shall be able to look towards the ideal, and the idea, of universal suffrage, direct suffrage and uniform procedures throughout the Community. Mr. Mansholt, whose opinion on these matters always commands attention and respect, has suggested that we could move towards direct suffrage by 1977. I do not believe that that is possible. I think that the 1980s is a much more realistic target. But I believe that even in the short term we should be working towards the aim of direct election to the Parliament of Europe.
I should like to spend a moment on the powers of the Parliament, because I believe it important that these should be increased. At the moment, the Parliament is not powerful enough, and of course we always have the chicken and egg argument about whether you can increase the powers without changing the composition, or whether you can ever change the composition unless you increase the powers. However you resolve that argument, it seems to me that the powers must be considerably increased. For example, I think there should be what the Vedel Report has called "co-decision"; that is to say, full consultation between the Parliament and the Council of Ministers.
I believe that the Council of Ministers should be required to give a very full and convincing account of itself, if it wanted to do something that was against the wishes of, and ran counter to, the decisions of the European Parliament. I think, too, that the European Parliament should have a power of veto over the decisions of the Council of Ministers, so that it is able to delay a Council decision for some time in order to give the Council of Ministers time to think again. I believe, finally, that it should have very considerably increased budgetary powers, because that is where the real power lies. If you have your hand on the money-bags, your power increases
2002
in an astonishing way. So much for the short-term aims. I should like to see the Council of Ministers not crippled by the principle of unanimity. I should like to see a Commission with a proper political role, but subjected to the democratic process; in other words, subjected to the will of the European Parliament. And I should like to see that Parliament increased in size, with stronger powers and moving rapidly towards direct elections. In this way, we might be able to weld all three together into a very powerful instrument at the disposal of the Community.
Finally, my Lords, what about the long-term? Here I believe it is wise only to state certain desirable aims; that we should not be too rigid about how these aims are to be attained. We shall need, over the coming years in Europe, to react very flexibly to situations that will arise—we cannot foresee them now—inside and outside the Continent of Europe. The ultimate aim, as I have said, is a united Europe in which all the institutions have a strong and indestructible democratic base. We should aim—I have already said this—towards a Parliament directly elected with European constituencies and European political Parties. We should consider—and it is not too soon to begin thinking about this now—the possibility of a Second Chamber in the European Parliament, its members to be nominated by the Member Governments. Of course there are difficulties of all kinds here, but difficulties are there to be overcome, not to be shrunk from.
It might even in due course—although I know that certain experts on the subject in your Lordships' House have views about this—replace the Council of Ministers. In any case, the Commission must be responsible to that Parliament. It must be responsible to the first elected Chamber of that Parliament, and that Parliament must begin learning now—I offer this piece of unsolicited advice to those members of the European Parliament who are present—to exercise its dominance over these high-priced gentlemen in Brussels, over the Commissioners. It is arguable that, in the long run, all those Commissioners should in fact be nominated from the members of the European Parliament. I should like to see a situation arise in the long term when no Commissioner was not a member of the European

2003
Parliament, nominated from that Parliament. In this way, the democratic process would be immeasurably strengthened. But in the meantime, I believe that members of the European Parliament have to ensure, in spite of the fact that there are some very high-powered gentlement in Brussels these days, that it is the will of the Parliament that counts. But they will not get those powers—no Parliament ever has—without fighting for them, and fighting for them very hard indeed. I believe that in this way we can build up in Europe a strong and an integrated Community system, democratically controlled and politically effective.
Incidentally, I really believe that all these institutions should be in one place. It seems to me crazy that we should have one institution in Strasbourg, sometimes in Brussels, and another in Luxembourg—and I believe the latest suggestion is that we should have a political secretariat stationed in Paris. This is lunacy. They must all be in one place. What we have been debating this afternoon, quite rightly, seems to me to be the mechanisms of Europe and its Community. But I hope we shall not concentrate so hard on the plough that we lose sight of the stars. There is a suggestion that Europe has lost its vision and its idealism. I do not believe that it has. Certainly among younger people there are still high hopes of what Europe can achieve and I must say that, for my own part. I have certainly not lost any of my own vision of the Europe of the future. I believe that this country in Europe can affect profoundly the kind of world that we shall bequeath to the next generation. I know that everyone would like this, whether he is pro- or anti-European.
There are real fears in this country about what is called loss of sovereignty. I confess that, although I sympathise with these views, I find it sometimes difficult to understand them, because sovereignty is meaningless unless you can do something with it. There is not much point in this country having an independent sovereign voice if no body is listening to it. There are differing opinions about this matter, and everyone is entitled to his own, but I should like before I sit down—and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, for giving me the opportunity for doing this—to say quite clearly
2004
in a few sentences what my own views are. I believe that if in the next century, in the next chapter of the history of this great country we can play a full part in creating a community which will assure a peaceful and prosperous Continent of Europe; which will help to feed the starving and comfort the suffering of the poor nations of the world; which will help to bring about a secure international structure with intelligent relationships between the Communist and the capitalist worlds—and, indeed, the Third World as well—and if that community can begin to attack the besetting problems of civilisation, the appalling waste of the arms race, environmental pollution, the uncontrolled population explosion and all of the other problems which we shall have to solve if we are to survive, and if we can play a constructive and compassionate role in all of that—and I believe that we can in Europe—then the sacrifice of a measure of national sovereignty seems to me to be a very small price to pay.
4.17 p.m.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, we on these Benches very much welcome the initiative of the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, because it gives those Members of this House who are Members of the European Parliament some opportunity to tell your Lordships what they have been up to, and, generally, to give you the benefit of their advice and their feeling about the Community as a whole. If I may begin with a few details about what I have been up to myself, perhaps I may say something about the Political Committee, of which I am the Vice-President and the Rapporteur on Defence, which I hope will be of interest. This body of 42 Parliamentarians contains a selection of Christian Democrat and Socialist politicians of considerable reputation and distinction, as well as a notable Italian Communist. Its British members, apart from myself, are Peter Kirk and Tufton Beamish. It can hardly be denied that this is both an influential and a thoroughly representative Parliamentary body. Its reports should be, and indeed have been, of considerable political significance. The last one by a Dutch Socialist named Mommersteeg, who is now in the Dutch Government along with our late colleague Max Van der Stoel—who has become Foreign Secretary of Holland—is well worth reading. The

2005
resolution based on it, in the composition of which I had a certain say, made specific proposals, which I hope the Ministers will look at, for the elementary machinery that clearly must now be set up by the Council of Ministers if they are serious about harmonising their Foreign and, eventually Defence policies, which, as the report states, cannot in practice be dissociated, within the general framework both of the Communities and of the North Atlantic Alliance. It was the first time that the European Parliament had faced this rather vital question, and the significant fact was that the Mommersteeg resolution was approved by all the political groups—Socialist, Christian Democrat, Liberal, Conservative and, yes, even the Gaullists (with one reservation). Even the Italian Communists—who, cannot yet, as we know, form a group, since there are only nine of them—were not violently hostile. As we all know, they are much less Moscow-dominated than their French opposite numbers. I therefore ask your Lordships to reflect on the real importance of such developments, and even to glance at the Mommersteeg Report, a copy of which I imagine is available in the Library.
The next move in this sphere will be to prepare a report, which I hope will be voted on some time in October or November, on the sort of collective defence which might eventually be considered and the general situation arising out of the possibility of American withdrawal, or partial withdrawal, from Europe, the likelihood of advance in Helsinki and Vienna, and so on; and also putting forward certain proposals about how you get over the initial difficulty, if you are trying to harmonise foreign defence policies among the Nine, namely that one of them is neutral and another, Denmark, is not inclined to participate in any European defence. All those problems will, I hope, figure in our next report. Naturally, they should preoccupy principally, and do preoccupy principally, Ministers and Governments, but the Governments should be at least aware of popular and Parliamentary opinion as manifested in the European Parliament. After all, the politicians at Strasbourg may be in the Governments before long! Therefore, though the Governments may agree on political solutions, they have also got to get them approved, in the long run, by
2006
their national Parliaments; and if the various political Parties have managed among themselves to get some kind of agreement at Strasbourg, which we may hope to do even by next October or November, a common European policy among the Governments will probably be much more easily achieved. I certainly do not think that Ministers ought to play down the efforts which are being made in Strasbourg to concentrate political thought on these important subjects.
But, of course, it is not only in this sphere of defence and foreign policy that new thinking will have to emerge. In accordance with the summit meeting last October, the Political Committee has now been instructed to prepare repot is on, among other things, the following subjects: the development of co-operation between the various institutions of the European Economic Community; the strengthening of the power of the Parliament itself; the present possibility of organising direct elections to the Parliament; the relations between the Parliament and the Parliaments of Community members; and, finally, in the light of all this, the whole present prospects of achieving European union. Before the end of the year, therefore, we may hope to be in possession of a number of weighty proposals embodying the considered and agreed views on the prospective future of the Communities of the great political groups which are gradually in practice forming themselves in Strasbourg; namely, those of the Left, the Right and the Centre, although, of course, as your Lordships know, nobody on the Continent ever wants to be labelled as belonging to the Right, which creates certain difficulties in seating arrangements!
What has been happening in other fields? I hope that noble Lords who are members of the Parliament of Europe will give some indication to the House of what they have been up to, as I have myself been doing just now. I should in any case like, if I may, to pay a tribute to the zeal and efficiency of my Conservative colleagues and to Lord O'Hagan himself, who seems to have left the Chamber (I trust not because he thought I was going to congratulate him!), who have taken the initiative in pressing Commissioners and Ministers with questions and,

2007
under the dynamic leadership of Peter Kirk, in successfully trying to revise other rules of procedure. For his part, my Liberal colleague, Russell Johnston, has been most active on the regional front, and I have no doubt that he will persuade his fellow Scot, George Thomson, to take into consideration the very special needs of Scotland.
To sum up, my Lords, Strasbourg is a hive of creative activity; there is no doubt about that. Of course the European Parliament should not be any longer in Strasbourg; I entirely associate myself with what the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, said about that. It is ridiculous, it is indefensible, that it should be located in Strasbourg. If and when the Parliament gets more powers—I shall come to that in a moment—and even more when it is directly elected even on a national basis—it will have to be so elected reasonably soon, otherwise I am afraid no Members of the House of Commons will present themselves for membership—it will obviously have to be removed to Brussels; it simply could not stay in Strasbourg any longer then.
I should like therefore to ask two questions of the Government. Are they in favour, in principle, of moving the Parliament from Strasbourg to Brussels, and are they in favour of its having more powers in accordance with what has been proposed lately by the Commission, or indeed in the Vedel Report? And, if they do not agree with these proposals, what sort of powers would they recommend? I do not see why the Government should not give some indication on this rather important subject. After listening to what my colleagues and I have said this afternoon some noble Lords may say—as the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, I heard a little while ago saying—that all this is pretty secondary stuff; what is its political importance? The noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, was I thought rather unduly pessimistic about the present state of affairs in the European Parliament and about its influence generally, and it may well be said, as the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd asked, "What is it all about? This is all very secondary; has it any powers at all?"
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but he keeps referring to me. I have not yet
2008
spoken. I think he must be mistaking me for my noble friend Lord Chalfont.
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, I heard the noble Lord some little while ago, in an intervention, say, as I understood him (I am not blaming him in any way; this point of view is said to be held by a number of noble Lords and indeed by many people in this country). that he did not think that this Parliament had any particular powers and he inquired what at the moment was the point of it—it was a secondary institution. Of course in a sense that is true. Is there any evidence at the moment that its advice is listened to? I think the answer to such doubts—and they are real doubts—is twofold. In the first place, although it is quite true that Parliament has not any real powers at the moment, by January 1, 1975, it will, as we all know, and as the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, said, at least have to power to dispose of about 4 per cent. of the budget of the E.E.C., which will then amount to something like £2,000 million. And this 4 per cent. will represent substantially the proportion of the budget which is not specifically earmarked for such purposes as the agricultural or regional or social funds, which at the moment represent about 80 per cent. of the budget. In other words, it will give Parliament the power to approve or not to approve all the money spent collectively on the various European institutions, including the Council and the Commission and the Parliament itself.
Noble Lords may say that this is like the nuclear bomb: it is a deterrent which can never in fact be used. That may be so, but the nuclear bomb is still of considerable political importance; and the mere fact that the Parliament has these powers which cannot in practice be used is nevertheless a very important lever in getting the Governments, the Ministers, to give them more powers.
The latest Report of the Commission—the Cheysson Report—comes very near to suggesting that, perhaps not in two years time but soon after that, the Parliament will have the last word, as it is called, on the approval or otherwise of the whole of the Community budget, including the social fund, the agricultural fund and everything else. Now of course

2009
it is consulted, and gives its advice, and cannot be ignored. We hope that it will be consulted more and more. Ministers consult it more and more and I think there is no doubt that before many years are out the Parliament will have this power of accepting or rejecting—a negative power if you like—the whole budget of the Community. It might be anything. It might be £5,000 million. That is something which is inherent in the whole idea of the Parliament. That is the way it is going to go. I think it is recognised not only that it is the way it will go, but that it a good thing that it should go in that direction, if we are going to have the thing at all. In addition to this, there are strong reasons, or considerable reasons, to suppose that over the years the Governments will probably give the Parliament more direct powers—nothing to do with the budget of codecision mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, in such matters as the appointment of the Commissioners, the approval of treaties, the approval or otherwise of the great policies, the social policies or anything else. They have to decide by a large majority, say four-fifths, whether or not to approve it. It will be unlikely; but if there were Parliamentary review it would have this power and would have an effect on the policy of Governments.
In the second place, there is no doubt that even without specific powers, even as it is formed at present, the Parliament has influence both in the Council and on the Commission. I have spoken to members of the Commission, and they say that it does have that influence and they are grateful that we are trying to put pressure on Ministers. The Commission and Parliament are natural allies, and vice-versa. We have now the monthly "grilling"—for such it is—of both the Commission and the Ministers by the Parliamentarians; and from this it often emerges that Parliament has an ally in the Commission. On occasion, I think unconsciously, Ministers themselves welcome Parliamentary pressure which they can sometimes employ as an excuse for accepting solutions that would otherwise be held up on national considerations. Besides that, there is now the new invention, the thrice yearly colloque between the President, or Acting President, of the Council, the Minisers and the Political Committee. I can assure your Lordships
2010
that punches are not pulled in the colloque, which is held in private. It was evident during the last one what the Committee as a whole thought of the latest proposals of the Ministers for advancing along the "Davignon" procedure for harmonising foreign and defence policy.
At the moment, the truth is, I am afraid, that any such advance is held up to a considerable extent by speculation about the health of the President of France and the consequent possibility, during the coming year perhaps, of another Presidential Election. We all hope that M. Pompidou will regain his health; but there is no doubt of this fear of the possibility of elections. It is obviously difficult in such a case for any French Government based on the present majority to risk incurring the wrath of some of its supporters by embarking on courses not demonstrably in strict accordance with the well-known nationalist policies of General de Gaulle—to say nothing about the farmers. It is possible that there might be rather a similar tendency here in the months preceding a General Election. This is the sort of difficulties that prevent democracies from making any rapid progress towards unification. Nevertheless, progress is being made. "E pur si muove"—"Still, it moves," as Galileo said at his trial. The Ministers keep to the timetable laid down last October, and there is reason to suppose that some kind of union will emerge by 1980.
More particularly, the Parliament is now beginning to work. Any moderately objective person who visits it will reach the conclusion that something is happening. There is a kind of animation, a kind of suppressed excitement which is totally absent from such other Parliamentary assemblies as Western European Union, the Atlantic Council and the Council of Europe. It is the idea that it may actually, as was recently suggested by Mr. Roy Jenkins, be beginning to work that results in the almost frenzied denouncements of it that I myself have heard on the radio by such anti-European zealots as Mr. Peter Shore and others who think like him.
I regret to note also that the Leader of the Opposition in another place is beginning to show signs, I think, of allying himself with the basic anti-European

2011
—anyway, anti-E.E.C.—thesis so vociferously advanced by Mr. Enoch Powell. I heard him recently on the radio denouncing in sepulchral tones the extent to which, under the malign influence of Mr. Heath, the British Government were now surrendering to Brussels most, or many, of the powers of the sovereign British Parliament—in accordance with a programme that he (Mr. Wilson) himself had been the first to advocate when as Prime Minister he moved heaven and earth towards getting us into the E.E.C. What foundation there is in these pre-election declarations we shall no doubt be able to determine when, I hope shortly and before the present Session ends, we debate the Report of the noble Lord, Lord Maybray-King.
As for the Union itself—and this is only a personal confession of faith and is not binding on my colleagues or anyone else—I do not believe that it will much resemble what the theoretical federalists believe, and the super patriots fear, that it will be. It may never emerge at all unless the Ministers manage within the next year or so to reform their methods of reaching decisions—notably the acceptance of a qualified majority vote in certain spheres. It could be a vast impersonal machine impervious of the popular will, but if it works in close relationship with an elected Parliament, that it will not be. It may be also—and I am trying to be pessimistic as well as optimistic—a rather vague association not strong enough to assert itself for good or evil in this strange world of the late 20th century. I should judge that this particular result would be unlikely. Either it will fade out altogether, in which case I should think our early democracies would probably not exist for very much longer, but under the pressure of world events over which we have no control it might be replaced by some form of directed economy whether of the Right or of the Left; or it might beome increasingly meaningful as time goes on. Either it will fade out, in which case it will have the consequences that I have suggested; or it will beome increasingly meaningful When I say "it", I mean an entirely new form of political animal not seen before devised by Europeans for European
2012
needs, in which by general consent certain decisions are taken by democratic nations in common by democratic means in which these nations will not be suppressed but will continue to exist and to flourish. I do not think that this is an idle dream. I believe that this is the only political objective worth fighting for at the present time. I believe it is the only framework in which we are likely to solve the problems which are beginning to plague our industrialised societies, and I believe it is also a logical basis for a long-term settlement with the Soviet Union and for the establishment of a common policy of advantage to the so-called developing world.
My Lords, there is one great sadness at Strasbourg, touched on by the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont. It is shared by all, of whatever political persuasion. It is the continued absence of members of the British Labour Party. I am not criticising my Conservative friends on the delegation. I think that they usually display great diligence, independence and sometimes courage, but they are Conservatives and Mr. Russell Johnston and I are sometimes lonely in our representation of the opposition point of view. We miss a strong British Left of centre voice even if it should be sometimes critical of various aspects of policy that we as Liberals might consider acceptable or even desirable. Surely, even though it may be wedded to renegotiating the Treaty in the next Session—and why not?—the Labour Party will soon find it possible to start this process in the very forum most likely to succeed; namely, the Parliament. At this moment the process is going on. It is not a simple question of renegotiating the butter quota or the sugar agreement or our contribution to the Central Agricultural Fund, with which though our present attempts to change them may not have a complete success, we can at least live; more especially if we get (as I think we shall) satisfaction on matters of great importance to this country such as the right conditions for pegging the pound and the constitution of a regional fund that is adequate and significant. For what is really needed, and what I think will be achieved—and it is a thousand pities that the Labour Party is not there to help—is a renegotiation of the famous "Luxembourg Compromise" of 1966

2013
and, above all, of the democratic status of the present powers of the Parliament of Europe. My Lords, you have only to glance at the state of affairs in America to understand how essential such developments are.
I repeat in conclusion that I much welcome this opportunity of giving your Lordships my first impressions of the functioning of the European Parliament, and I hope that I have not bored you in so doing. You will conclude, I expect, that I am optimistic about its future and about that of the Community as a whole. Perhaps I am, though I hope not unduly. We have certainly not as yet got beyond the point of no return. There are still many formidable obstacles in the way of European unity in addition to Mr. Enoch Powell. Possibly they will be removed only by a sense of urgency—of fear, if you will—induced perhaps by economic circumstances or perhaps by an acute awareness of our strategic weakness resulting from the failure of the American will; or by some external threat to our Parliamentary institutions—who can tell? All I know is that we must have some objective other than the pursuit of purely national objectives if we are to survive in this, in some ways, appalling modern world; and what is more, if we are to make it a little better than it is at present.
My Lords, I repeat that I have four questions to put to the Government. Seeing that the present system must lead to a breakdown of the institutions, owing to the fact that Members of Parliament (other than people like myself, who have not much external or other obligations) are almost breaking down under the strain, would they not in principle be in favour of some system, either that produced by Mr. Michael Stewart or some other plan, whereby our Members were elected or nominated by new means, so as to enable them to function properly?
My second question is: are they in favour in principle of the Ministers abiding by the Treaty of Rome and adopting the principle of qualified majority voting, perhaps to start with only in certain spheres in which there cannot be said to be any vital interests, and gradually going up, say, in ten years' time, to foreign affairs and defence—who knows? After all, if they are, they have only to say so. Other people may not agree, but there is no reason why
2014
we should not be in favour of it in principle. My third question is: are they in favour, in principle, of moving the Parliament to Brussels in accordance with the unanimous view of all the British representatives; and fourthly, are they in favour of giving more powers to the Parliament, and, if so, what powers, in accordance with the proposals made by M. Cheysson, Professor Vedel, or anybody else? My Lords, that is all I have to say, and I thank your Lordships for listening to me.
4.44 p.m.
LORD REAY: My Lords, perhaps I should begin by apologising for the absence of my noble friend Lord Bessborough. He is, as some of your Lordships will be aware, Deputy Leader of the European Conservative Group, and he has asked me to express his great regret at not being able to be present this afternoon owing to commitments abroad as a Member of the European Parliament of which he is also a Vice-President. I think that the debate we are having this afternoon could be most useful, and that the very notable contributions we have already had from the noble Lords, Lord O'Hagan, Lord Gladwyn and Lord Chalfont, have probably already made it so.
It may seem to some a bit early to have a debate on this subject. After all, we have had only some six months since the Community was given a renewed life by its enlargement in January; and on all fronts but particularly in so far as the development of Parliament is concerned, much is in the pipeline. Nevertheless, the question of Europe's institutions has to be discussed, even though the targets are many years away. Perhaps I may remind noble Lords of what is said in the final paragraph of the Paris Summit Communiqué:
"The Heads of State or Government, having set themselves the major objective of transforming, before the end of the present decade and with the fullest respect for the Treaties already signed, the whole complex of the relations of member States into a European Union, request the institutions of the Community to draw up a report on this subject before the end of 1975 for submission to a summit conference."
A report that is to be produced before the end of 1975 will probably be begun in 1974—that is, next year—so no opportunity should be missed, even now, for Members of national Parliaments to

2015
express their views as to how the institutions of a united Europe should be developed.
I can cover only a limited amount of ground, and perhaps the best thing would be if I gave some of my impressions, principally of Parliament, but to start with of the Commission. Given the staff problems with which the Commission was faced on enlargement, I think it is remarkable that it has been as creative as it has been. In April and May it produced, one after another, major documents on energy policy, technological and industrial policy, on GATT, on regional policy, on environmental policy, on social policy, on the future relations between the Community and the associated African States and the so-called associable States, on the second stage of the Economic and Monetary Union, on relations between the Parliament and Commission and finally, at the beginning of this month, on what the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, referred to as the Cheysson Statement on the strengthening of the budgetary powers of the European Parliament. In all these areas of policy, in accordance with deadlines set down by the Paris Summit Communiqué, the Commission has declared its own lines of thinking and has indicated to the Council the manner in which further progress should be achieved.
My Lords, apart from being impressed by the manner and the speed with which the Commission has managed in so many areas to declare its policy in outline, I should like to add that I am also impressed, as I think the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, was impressed, by the degree to which the Commission has been willing, even eager, to co-operate in establishing a relationship with the Parliament. At the Plenary Sessions, it is with the Commission, rather than with the Council, that the Parliament has been able to establish a relationship which, in its basic character, is recognisably that between a Parliament and a Government Front Bench. It is the Commissioners who make policy statements and who are now, for the first time and in accordance with our own Parliamentary practice, subjected to questioning on making them. It is with the Commissioners, each one an individual with an area of responsibility like
2016
a Cabinet Minister, that the Parliament conducts the main part of its dialogue in Question Time and in the discussions on reports and resolutions. In Committees also in my experience, the Commissioners seem anxious to co-operate. At the last meeting of the economic and Monetary Committee in Brussels—and these meetings are often spread over two half-days—no fewer than four Commissioners attended in turn to take part in discussions on those items on the agenda which fell within their areas of responsibility.
While I am on the subject of the Commission I should like to refer to the charges of "faceless bureaucrats", aimed off in the general direction of Europe but which I assume to be merited in the eyes of those who make them by nobody so much as by the Commission. Although this charge is generally vaguely linked with ideas of loss of national sovereignty, and the fact that Members of the European Parliament are not directly elected, and because we have not yet established the relationship we want between the European Parliament and our national Parliament—the question of accountability and so on—yet in so far as this is meant to be an appropriate description of the Commission, it seems to me to be very much off target. In the first place, the majority of the Commissioners are politicians with Ministerial experience in their own national Parliaments. They are eager to meet the public and they are competent at doing so.
In the second place, I am quite convinced that Brussels is nothing like so secretive and anonymous, so enclosed from outside eyes, as Whitehall is. Indeed, my Lords, its openness and its tendency to leak everything is almost notorious. When things of this sort are said about Brussels I sometimes wonder whether we are not projecting on to Brussels an image of what in fact is our own tradition of keeping civil servants as much as possible away from the public—a tradition that once we were so proud of, but which is now severely criticised and which is almost certainly archaic. In fact, it would not surprise me if it was from Brussels and from other countries on the Continent that in the end we learn how to relieve what is essentially a problem for us here at home.

2017
The most recent concrete proposals for strengthening the powers of the Parliament came from the Commission. They came in three documents, the last of which, published on the 6th of this month (COM (73) 1000/2, for noble Lords who wish to pursue them), dealing with budgetary powers, is the most important. Until the Special Study Group and the Parliament itself reports, which I understand may not be until towards the end of the year, the Commission document is likely to be the focus of discussion on this question. In the slow way that these documents filter through, I have not had mine for long, nor, so far as I can discover, have other people whose appraisal would be valuable. In the meantime, I must confess that I do not fully understand what it is proposing. Perhaps there is a chance that my noble friend Lady Tweedsmuir in winding up may be able to contribute an interpretation. The doubt, as I see it, lies over what areas of future expenditure and revenue-raising the Assembly, the Parliament, is to be given a greater role. From my reading of it, it seems not impossible that under these proposals Parliament might be able to control the size of funds, which have not yet been established, such as the Regional Fund or the Social Fund. It looks as if the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, also takes this view: indeed, he seemed to be more certain about it than I am. But though there may be grounds for doubt over the areas to be covered, there is no doubt, as noble Lords will discover for themselves if they read the document, over the type of institution even the Commission want the Parliament to be. Again and again you will read, instead of saying "after consultation with the Assembly", they say, "with the agreement of the Assembly". Even in the eyes of the Commission the Parlaiment is to be transformed from a consultative assembly into an assembly with powers of control.
To look further ahead, I should like to say something about direct relations. There are formidable problems to be overcome before Members of the European Parliament can be directly elected. A Parliament that was powerful, or that was expected to become powerful, would surely need to be based on a common system of election for all its members:
2018
indeed, as the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, showed us, subsection 3 of Article 138 of the Treaty of Rome makes this provision for the future. Yet the electoral systems within the Community of the Nine encompass a great variety. There are single-member constituencies and constituencies with several members. There is proportional representation without constituencies, in which the entire electorate is a single constituency, and there are such systems in which large constituencies return 10 or 30 members. There is a mixture of single member constituencies and proportional representation. There is a system which involves a second round of voting. There is a system based on the transferable vote. There is voluntary voting and compulsory voting, and so on. For the most part, proportional representation in one form or another predominates, not without its disadvantages. Some nations are less happy with their systems than others, but each has its different tradition and its different estimate of the value of what it has and of what others have.
There is another problem. It might be thought desirable, if not essential, that each Member of such a Parliament, or of one Chamber within such a Parliament, should represent a roughly equal number of electors. That is one of the historic principles of democratic representation, over which bitter battles have been fought in this country in the past. But to-day, if you based the ratio of electors to members on what prevails in Luxembourg, you would have a Chamber of approximately 2,250 members. If you treated Luxembourg as a special case and based it on the prevailing ratio in Ireland, you would have a Chamber of 750 members approximately. Ireland is three times as well represented as Holland and five times as well represented as Germany, which, with the largest population, is the least well represented of all.
But, my Lords, there is a worse problem. A Parliament worth its name should surely be responsible for its stability; that is to say, whatever the system for dissolving it, its majorities should not run the risk of being upset because parts of that Parliament were being re-elected at unpredictable intervals for reasons which did not derive from

2019
or relate to the constitution of that Parliament or to events within that Parliament. Therefore, whether elections to that Parliament were at fixed intervals or otherwise, they should not depend on national Governments dissolving their national Parliaments. But to arrange things otherwise would be to ask the electors to come out as a nation and vote in elections to the European Parliament in addition to the occasions—perhaps even shortly before or shortly after such occasions—when they had been asked to do so for national elections: unless of course national political systems were adapted to suit the European one, which is even less foreseeable. Consequently, I do not believe that an electoral system for the European Parliament, suitable to have a permanent character, can be introduced until such time as the electorate were at least as interested in the activities and composition of the European Parliament as they were in that of their own national Parliaments.
Those, my Lords, as I see them, are the principal problems that lie in the way of instituting direct elections. Whether an interim arrangement is possible, I do not know; perhaps it is. I should be most interested to hear the contribution of other noble Lords on this question—and, indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, has already provided some most interesting ideas. Certainly there are great inconveniences in the present system. The present double responsibility to the European Parliament and to national Parliaments is inefficient, and, particularly to my friends in another place is burdensome, even exhausting, and possibly politically dangerous. Clashes of obligation on this account are a commonplace for us all. They explain to-day the absence of my noble friends from this debate and the absence of myself and my noble friend Lord Mansfield from the Continent. It is quite usual for entire national delegations to fail to turn up at, or suddenly disappear from, meetings at which others who have arrived consider their presence essential. Individuals perform remarkable teats. One of my colleagues on one occasion left Strabourg by the same plane on two successive days, having visited Westminster in the meantime. For anyone who knows
2020
the air services between here and Strasbourg, that in itself deserves a trophy.
But I will restrain myself from being vivid on that subject in order instead to give more detail on a topic which has proved to be more controversial. On occasion, in discussion in this country, the allusions to the luxurious compensations of being a European Member of Parliament have got out of hand, and I should like to say something about our expenses. Our basic daily allowance is about £25, which in my experience (I must repeat that this is my experience; others may have different experiences) usually, but not always, exceeds the amount required for personal expenses during the time spent abroad. It can be appreciated that it does not always cover expenses when I give an illustration that the hotel into which we were booked for a meeting in Copenhagen the week before last cost £15 per night for a single room. Also, of course, there is sometimes the need to return hospitality. In addition, the method of calculating the amount owed for travelling expenses leaves a surplus. However, if account is taken of the fact that Members pay for their wives to accompany them, and that it would be demanding too much of a Member, who may be spending up to 150 days away a year on up to something like 50 different journeys, to require him to leave his wife behind on all occasions; if allowance is made for the secretarial assistance to control the inflow of paper; if account is taken, for Members of this House, of the allowances they forgo in not being able to attend this House—then I suspect that at the end of the year Peers, at least, will be lucky if they are not, on balance, in deficit. So I must warn noble Lords opposite who may find themselves in the position of being asked to join us in Strasbourg—as I hope they will, and the sooner the better—that they must expect a job which, for all its absorbing political interest, is unpaid, will occupy them for an average of at least three days a week, and those days so irregular in their incidence that the maintenance of other interests or public responsibilities is difficult and, in many cases, impossible. That is what they must expect for so long as the present unsatisfactory conditions obtain.

2021
To conclude, I should like to come back to the idea of the future. When the next major problem on the way toward the political union of Europe will be solved, which problem that will be—whether it will be the problem of direct elections, new procedures in the Council, or in the monetary field or in the reorganisation of defence—is impossible to predict. It is also impossible to predict what the consequences of the solution of one problem will be on the appearance of other problems. Like the line of an advancing army, you do not know at which point resistance will be stubborn, at which point resistance will be broken first. But that the line is advancing, I have no doubt; and I hope this debate will have made its own contribution to the character of the situation we find ourselves in at the end of the day.
5.2 p.m.
LORD GORE-BOOTH: My Lords, this debate, more than in any other in which I have ventured to break silence in your Lordships' House, I find to be one in which someone in my own particular position can speak only in terms of what has already been said; and if, like the earth before its official creation, my remarks (which will not be long) might seem to be without form, I hope they will not also be void. I should like, if I may, to treat the subject rather in the way chosen by the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, in what, if I may say so, was a very notable speech, and look at the situation a little from the point of view of the development of the Community itself and of the political institutions as a whole. Then perhaps I may go on to one or two practical points which have already been very largely dealt with by other noble Lords.
The noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, to whom we owe so much for introducing this debate, expressed in general a certain kind of astonishment at what he found in Brussels; and this is not altogether surprising. On the other hand, I think the conclusion we should all keep reminding ourselves of in this context is that the institutions of the Community, in their nature and origin, are not imitations of British institutions gone a little wrong. They owe their origins to all sorts of other things: notably Roman law, the Latin approach to government, and the Continental view of the functions and status of Parliament; and what we shall
2022
undoubtedly need to continue to do is to seek to adapt those institutions so far as we can in terms that we, with our Parliamentary experience, know to work as a response to popular will. But we shall not be able to reform them into anything like the image or likeness of our own institutions. This is what makes the problem a very difficult one.
Perhaps I may explain what I am trying to say by an allusion to the origin of the Commission. One of the most influential people in the early years, as many of your Lordships will know, was Dr. Hallstat of Germany. He happened to occupy the position of Stats-Secreter in the German Foreign Office, and at that time the post was both official and political. In other words, he was the equivalent to a Secretary-General or a Permanent Under-Secretary, but he also had to appear in Parliament and present foreign policy. So from the very origin of the Community you get a body which in a sense is not official, technocratic or political, and yet all three at once. In some interesting way the Commission has evolved precisely because big decisions had to be worked out by someone, and the very high calibre of people in the Commission, together with the very great importance of the problems to be worked on, has kept that body at that level. Consequently, to talk about it as a bureaucracy really misses half, though not the whole, point of what one is talking about.
If I may go on further to talk of the Commission for a moment, we in Britain have appointed to it a really outstanding body of people in our public life—and we were absolutely right to do this. But if you look at the history of all international or federal institutions, it seems there may come a time when perhaps this body may become not quite of such a high standard. This again will depend on the evolution of the Council of Ministers. My only comment on what should be done about this—and here I pick up perhaps the only point made by the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, with which I did not wholly agree—is to voice the thought that there may be some virtue in bringing in here one of the virtues of the American separation of Parliaments. It may prove in the future—and I put it no stronger than that—useful to have at or near the top a body consisting of people who are

2023
not necessarily chosen from people who have to be members of the legislature. In the United States it has meant, with all its disadvantages, that you can bring into government, and particularly into difficult government, people who have enormous qualifications but do not have either the talent or the ability to get themselves popularly elected. This would mean that one would then need to have confidence in the future of the Council of Ministers. If I may say so, I thought that the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, did them slightly less than justice. After all, in all international work the big decisions are very often taken by a group of people with the real power who have to get together for far too short a time. They come and are briefed, and they must decide. They represent the real power.
But here I think there is a real question mark in the future of the Community as to whether it is the Council of Ministers who will retain the power by reforming their methods of procedure, by abolishing the right of the veto, and so on, or whether Europe in fact will develop so fast that in some way power must go to the Commission. In that case, the proposition put by the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, would be right, in the sense that the Commission would then have to be elected. Those are some of the complexities. The only point I would make on this is that I think we must all make blue prints but always with the reservation that the matter will evolve in terms of opportunity, coincidence of personality, and so on.
Turning now to the European Parliament, here again if one goes back to the history of political institutions, the Parliament is bound either to fail completely or to gain power that it ought to have. I say "fail completely" only in order to dismiss it; but it is really the only alternative in the history of political institutions. Either a popular Government runs into difficulty and turns itself into a dictatorship, or a Parliament has acquired, at least nominally, the power that people demand it should have. I am absolutely certain that this will happen. I am in entire agreement with all noble Lords who have said that the sooner the Parliament joins up with the rest of the institutions the better. Perhaps noble Lords have been less than
2024
kind to people at Strasbourg—they will lose a great deal by this because of course paâteé de foie gras manufacture is no substitute for the European Parliament. On the other hand, I am sure that some way will be found of compensating them. If there should be this concentration, then surely Brussels has proved itself to be the right place, and the sooner it happens, the better.
In that connection, in my brief remarks I should like to put two questions which I hope the Minister will be able to answer. They are similar to questions posed by other noble Lords. The first is whether, in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the larger official framework, work is going on on a blueprint of how we should like to see these institutions develop. I am not suggesting it should be produced if this is not opportune. Experience shows that it is wise to have your own blueprint as to how you would like to see things go, at least as a point of reference when considering at any particular moment what is practical.
The other point I should like to raise—and this joins up with part of what the noble Lord, Lord Reay, was saying—is this: is there also being made what I can only call a logistic study and a general administrative study? One matter which emerged extremely clearly was the appalling exhaustion caused to those dedicated people who serve in both our Parliament and the European Parliament and have also to look in elsewhere in order to keep themselves briefed. Is some study being made of how, pending the move of the European Parliament and various other things, this matter can be properly handled?
Regarding the long-term, I also was much attracted by the idea of my former Secretary of State, Michael Stewart. I wonder whether we could evolve towards a system in which in the end Members of the European Parliament could be elected. But that would carry with it some special right of access to your Lordships' House and to the other place so that people thus elected did not feel that they had a whole-time obligation to both Parliaments, which is really too much, but that somehow the unity of ourselves and Europe could be expressed by their having some special position in our own Houses of Parliament.

2025
What is this all in aid of? That is a question I find myself asking into the air. To some extent an answer was given, again, by the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, with his triangles. I would add another shape to his own contribution. I do not think it is a pentagon but it might have four sides. If one looks at the development of the world at this time one sees developing from Asia a shape of countries somewhat similar to the old 18th century or 19th century balance of powers, and one gets all sorts of question marks overhanging the relationship between, on the one hand, the Soviet Union and the United States, and, on the other hand, China, with an inclination, it seems, to look towards Europe. All sorts of combinations of that kind are developing. While it will take us some time to arrive at what one could call a European foreign policy, there is certainly a great need for European coherence in this moving and complicated situation.
If I may turn to the political side for a moment, I should like strongly to express the hope that those who believe that European coherence should not be anti-American, will prevail. I am sure that to believe otherwise would do us no good at all in the other side of the picture which was discussed earlier; namely, in the balance between the United States and the Soviet Union and its effect upon the defence and security of Western Europe. The decisive reason for debating this subject, for scratching our heads about it, and for the value in the initiative that the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, has had, is that these institutions are our institutions. The people who get the most space and time at the moment are the people who shout very loud and who seem to want to see these institutions become confused, or our obligations towards them become blurred or even rejected. That is no longer possible, even if it is what we wanted. These are our institutions, and we must do our best, as part of them, to turn them into an efficient working democracy. If we do this with a certain understanding of why the Continental Europeans, having started dispersed, run things the way they do, I am sure we shall arrive at a coherent and constructive solution—if not a perfect one—of these problems.
5.15 p.m.
BARONESS GAITSKELL: My Lords, we have to thank the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, for calling our attention to the institutions of the enlarged European Community, and for giving us the benefit of both his knowledge and his practical experience in an admirable speech—a speech noteworthy for its clarity and simplicity, even though it was tinged with a certain amount of pessimism. I have found all the speeches this afternoon interesting and instructive. Now that we are a member of the enlarged Community I cannot say that the anxiety I felt when I voted with this House for entry has been entirely dispelled. Anxiety lingers on among many people because of the absence of any tangible benefits for Britain up to date, and the constant reminder of dearer food, higher prices and irritating taxes like V.A.T. But may I add that this anxiety was considerably minimised, and I was reassured by the vigorous, practical and optimistic speech of the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, an optimism which was not cloudy and for which he gave chapter and verse.
But my interest in the expanded Community has grown apace since I have had the privilege of sitting as a member of the Select Committee on European Instruments, under our distinguished and patiently probing Chairman, the noble Lord, Lord Maybray-King. This Select Committee has not finished looking into the complex institutions of the Community which mysteriously brought about the economic prosperity of the Six. This is always held up as a reproach to us. Though I have learned a certain amount, my education is not complete and my knowledge very fragile. I think that even if the Six had bolted the door against us, they were already in transit and what was a mainly customs union was bound to broaden its functions in order to achieve social, economic and political co-operation. We in Britain have a long history of international alliances so that we have much experience to contribute in this field, and the Community could gain from our experience. We all know that the Member Governments of the Community have different objectives and priorities, and that Britain and Denmark, for instance, have great pride in their national Parliaments, and that when they

2027
are confronted with the new challenge of a European Parliament, and are asked to share the Community interest by making radical changes in their own national policies, the going will not be smooth and there will be some very hard and difficult bargaining ahead.
At present the enlargement of the Community has only increased the political problems. The policy-making in the Community is bound to make inroads on national Parliaments. This is a very hard truth for many of us to accept, and the very detailed technical proposals put forward by the Commission and the Council detract from any romantic ideas we might hold about European unity. It is not easy to penetrate and clarify the different functions of the three great institutions—the Commission, the Council and the European Parliament—especially as the European Parliament appears to be, at least to me, the weakest one of the three. It all looks to many people like a secret society, and I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, pointed out how remote it seems to us.
The two books I have read recently, one by Donald Chapman and the other by Helen Wallace, are clear and informative. Donald Chapman underlines that the European Parliament is the only body meeting in public where the voice of the Opposition of the Member States can be heard and so it can influence the Ministerial Council. The need for strengthening the European Council is, I think rather urgent, and this need has been expressed this afternoon by practically everyone who has spoken. It seems to me that the European Parliament has too few Members from national Parliaments. I cannot tell whether the number of civil servants is adequate to run the Community, but I am pretty sure that the Members of Parliament who represent us are too few and too hard-worked. I think that, seeing them as commuters from London to Brussels, their constituents will become restive and will feel neglected. A change here is, I think, highly desirable; and this again is a point that has been referred to by the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, and other speakers.
We have arrived at a phase in the evolution of the Community where it becomes more political and less technical,
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I believe. Most of us are bamboozled by the technicalities, especially as there has been so little explanation and simplification of the functions of the institutions. So it is left to those experts who can pierce the intricacies of the Council and the Commission to suggest that the power of the European Parliament should be increased and that the Commission would be well advised to consult the European Parliament before putting forward their proposals. This would give the Commission more political force.
My Lords, I am afraid that my comments are based, as I have said, on a very fragile knowledge. I know that there is much more I have to read and digest about the Community before I can envisage the benefits we shall obtain from the institutions and the benefits we can confer on them. At present I am reminded of an old Charlie Chaplin film in which he runs a watch repair shop. A customer enters and asks him to mend his watch. The man takes it to pieces, shakes his head sadly, and hands the pieces back to the customer. Finally, my Lords, when my enthusiasm for the ideal of European unity is at a low ebb it is revived by a growing revulsion I feel for the excesses and violence of nationalism, and this dissipates some of the anxiety I feel about our loss of sovereignty.
5.23 p.m.
VISCOUNT HANWORTH: My Lords, I am going to confine my remarks almost solely to the consumer angle and viewpoint, and I think therefore that perhaps I ought to declare an interest in so far as I am technical adviser to the Consumers' Association. I should like to make just one general remark before I start upon my main theme. We all know of course how strong the arguments were on both sides when we decided to go into the Common Market. One understands that there are many who are still strongly against it. Yet I believe there is one good maxim in life, and it is certainly one that I was taught in the Army: once you have adopted a course you must pursue it with the utmost vigour to try to make it successful. I appeal to those, to all those, who are still against the Common Market to do their best to see that our entry is successful. If it is not, then of course

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we can think again. But to spoil it merely by looking over our shoulders at this stage, is to my mind a disaster and not worthy of those who adopt that policy.
The interesting thing about the consumer angle is how little representation they had before we joined, and I am happy to say that the whole situation has changed greatly in quite a short time. I should like to mention the initial situation. There was no provision in the Treaty of Rome for consumer representation; negligible attention was paid to consumer views on the E.E.C. level. Only six out of the then 6,000 of the Commission's civil servants dealt with consumer affairs at all. Consumers themselves on a European basis were badly organised. In contrast to this, every industry had developed a very strong lobby in Brussels. The only semi-official consumer committee, Comite de Contact, collapsed in 1972, before we joined. In working out the directives the Commission consulted experts, but these were almost wholly producers or drawn from the producer interests.
What has happened since that rather sad and depressing state of affairs? A consumer with specific responsibility for consumer protection has been appointed; that is, Mr. Carlo Scarascia. Before this, consumer affairs were tucked away anonymously, under the Commissioner for Competition. We now have under this new Commissioner a Consumer Affairs Division in the Commission itself. BEUC (which is the Bureau European Union de Consumateurs) has begun to become something of influence. It now has an office in Brussels, a permanent staff and some money. But only £7,000 a year, compared with over £100,000 which we know one single national farmers' pressure group spends on its office and lobbying in Brussels. That is the imbalance which the consumers are up against. I fully realise that it is often a defect in the consumer organisation itself which makes this all the more difficult. In BEUC all nine countries are represented, the Consumers' Association of Ireland and the Danish Consumer Council have just joined: in all there are eleven organisations.
The Government must be congratulated on giving our Consumers' Association money to do research here in the United
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Kingdom on Common Market directives and other problems and to try to find out what the consumer view should be. We now have a small staff dealing with E.E.C. legislation and policies. The United Kingdom is ahead of all other E.E.C. countries in devoting resources specifically for such work. We in the Consumers' Association are providing facilities for 16 consumer organisations to meet regularly to discuss E.E.C. affairs: this we call our E.E.C. consumers' co-ordinating group. There are now three top consumer representatives in the Economic and Social Committee, one of them coming from the United Kingdom.
There have been, I think, a few successes already. Since going into the Common Market we have had to accept a grading scheme for fruit and vegetables at the retail level, and this is something consumers in the United Kingdom have wanted for years. From September there will be regular checking of the bona fides of wine, especially Beaujolais, Chablis and Nuits St. George; and here again we are represented on the standard body which will do this checking.
What fears have we for the future? We have not had any losses so far, but there is one matter that I should like to mention which is of some considerable importance to consumers. The Continent work on average weight, whereas we work on minimum weight. You may say, "Why does this matter?" I will give just two reasons, although there are others. First, when you are working on average—and it may be over quite a large sample—there is no incentive for manufacturers to increase their quality control and get nearer to a specified weight. Secondly, checking, or the possibility of checking, is almost out of the question for individual consumers because they would have to buy (let us say) 50 samples before they could get the average. Equally well, it makes life a lot more difficult for any enforcement authority, such as the weights and measures. So I feel that it is a retrograde step if we are forced to accept the average weights philosophy.
Then there is the question of harmonisation. In all negotiations there has to be a little bit of give and take, but we must stand firm when things of real importance—perhaps on safety—are concerned. I think people who know anything

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about electrical wiring and have seen the standards in France would think it inconceivable that we should accept their very low standards here. So there will be areas where, although we can sometimes compromise, we must stand firm and try to adopt the best standard rather than the lowest common denominator.
I turn now to a few specific proposals. I should like better consumer representation in CEN and CENELEC, and here I should like to say what an excellent job the British Standards Institutions are doing in this and in general in the European field. I should like a better effort from the United Kingdom trade unions. They could be a great help in the Economic and Social Committee. I am afraid I must say here that I only wish the trade unions would take their place in the modern world and be a little less self-centred. We want them in a modern world, not in the last century. After seeing their European colleagues in action, we now realise how unhelpful the unions have been in the United Kingdom on consumer work. Thirdly, we should like better coordination between the Economic and Social Committee and the European Parliament and a greater use of the powers each has.
Finally, I should like to reinforce what some other speakers have said about the E.E.C. institutions. We in the past have been very proud of our democratic institutions in this country and of our Parliament, and I think rightly proud. Nevertheless, there are those—and I am certainly one of them—who believe that changes are necessary in our own system to meet the needs of the present day. I would remind your Lordships that Parliament is not respected in the way it used to be, and I think it is not hard to see the reasons for this and to feel that some changes will have to be made. I therefore feel that we must not look only through our own spectacles at the European institutions: it should be possible to evolve something better than perhaps we have here, and we may be able to help to do this on the basis of our experience. But for goodness' sake do not let us just rely on the catch phrases of politics which are all too often mouthed in this country and in Parliament to-day.
5.35 p.m.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD:My Lords, may I first express my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, for initiating this debate in your Lordships' House to-day. It enables some of us who are Members of the European Parliament to give an account, as it were, of our activities in the last six months. My only regret is that the debate comes at a time when so few of our colleagues on this side of the House can be present. If I may say so, it does not speak very well for the somewhat rigid structure by which debates are fixed. In this instance, the debate could probably have been set for a time when the European Parliament will be in recess, which will come in a fortnight. Be that as it may, the opportunity is here and it must be taken.
I am not going to follow some noble Lords down the philosophical and indeed fascinating path of their adventures—if I may so call them—over the last six months, but will concentrate particularly on the three points of the triangle as they affect us politically at the moment; that is to say, the Council of Ministers, the Commission and the European Parliament. It may help those few noble Lords who perhaps do not know what goes on in the European Parliament if I say that it is very much more like a county council than a legislative body. The main work of Parliament is done in Committees, in closed Session and not in the public gaze—as I should have liked to tell the noble Baroness, Lady Gaitskell, if she were here—and it is only the reports of the Committees which are forwarded to the Parliament meeting in Plenary Session either in Strasbourg or occasionally in Luxembourg, which are debated in public. This is an important, and indeed a vital part of the activities of the Parliament, because if I may perhaps gently take the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, to task, it is not a question of getting a pair or voting by proxy; the only way in which one can make one's individual and appropriate viewpoint felt in the political affairs of Europe is actually by being there and beavering away in these Committees.
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, if the noble Earl will allow me, I was suggesting voting by proxy and permanent pairing in Westminster and not in Strasbourg.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, the place where the votes are taken is Brussels, and it is only by sometimes altering the wording of resolutions or reports in minute detail that an effect can be felt. That is what is so important and it cannot be done unless one is there oneself.
LORD CHALFONT: My Lords, I am sorry, but I do not think the noble Lord has clearly understood me and I should like to get the Record straight. What I was suggesting, simply in passing as an idea to be considered, was that Members of the European Parliament should be allowed to spend all their time about their business in Europe by a system of permanent pairing or voting by proxy in Westminster.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, I take the noble Lord's point. Of course it works all right in your Lordships' House, but it does not work very well in the other place because their arrangements break down. But may I continue with my theme. The role of the European Parliament at the moment is purely consultative. That of course is an honourable role as the Europeans see it. They have found it difficult to believe that we in the European Conservative group are serious in our complaints about the lack of power in the European Parliament in the way that it is run, because to them the power to ordain that one should be consulted is an honourable state and really is as much as we can hope for. In saying that, I have over-stated the position, but some of the opposition to the various reforms which we have tried to achieve over the last six months stems from a lack of understanding of the Westminster position of the Legislature as opposed to the European.
So far as the Council of Ministers is concerned, I would not perhaps take the same viewpoint as the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan. It is untrue, as I have found the situation, that a series of talented "Batmen" descend on Brussels for a few days, or even hours, and make decisions according to their national viewpoints. The various permanent representatives of the Community are, as it were, hard at work all the time and information flows back and forth through the various national Governments who make up the
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Committee when it sits at various moments. I have found, when I have asked any Government for either help or information on what is coming, that they are very ready to produce it. The difficulty that exists at the moment is that there is no, as we say, privity between the Council of Ministers and the European Parliament except in the matter of Question Time, which to my mind has yet to be made much use of so far as the Council of Ministers is concerned.
One can illustrate that. When the price proposals were first produced by the Commission, they were promulgated to the Agricultural Committee of the European Parliament, and the European Parliament was expected to receive the report from its Committee, debate the report, and give some sort of a blessing by way of a resolution—in fact without the Council of Ministers' even being aware that the debate had taken place. It is that kind of situation which makes the European Parliament so ineffective when it tries to influence what the Council of Ministers is thinking. There is no joining together, as it were, between the Council and the Parliament by way of consultation.
I am perfectly aware that the articles lay down that in certain circumstances the Council of Ministers has to take the advice of the European Parliament. But frequently, because of translation difficulties, because of the monthly meetings, and the delay which it takes to get a matter reported in Committee and reported back to the European Parliament, the Parliament is quite unable to express any proper opinion by the time the Council has to make up its collective mind. That is one way in which we can, and indeed must, try to improve the present situation. If, of course, the Council of Ministers is to give up any of its powers, any residual powers, in favour of any of the member nations, that can come about only by its own voluntary will and by the will of the various legislatures and Governments among the Nine, and I am bound to say that at the moment there is very little sign of it.
I now come to the Commission. For myself, I do not find them, on the one hand, quite as did the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, or, on the other, as did the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn. I have found them a delightful body of people

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to deal with but fairly inflexible—at least on agricultural matters, although it is fair to point out that the Common Agricultural Policy of Europe is the "sacred cow" of the institution, and the fact that it produces a profane butter mountain does not interest them very much. But so far as the Parliament is concerned, I merely repeat and reiterate what some of my noble friends and colleagues have said: they are anxious to make our acquaintance, so to speak; they are anxious to take us into their confidence; they are anxious to receive our advice, and they are less anxious, but nevertheless willing, to act on it.
To turn to the Parliament itself, a great deal has been said about whether it should have more powers, or why it should have more powers, and how those powers could come about. There is no doubt that at the moment it suffers radically because it has this consultative atmosphere, as has already been mentioned, and there are no Government and no Opposition, and so very little opportunity for an individual, or even a group, to initiate anything. It is quite impossible, as things stand, to question the Parliament as to any of its hopes or ways of going about its work, or how it should go about it in the future. It is almost impossible to initiate a debate unless it is in the form of a question. And it is at the moment thoroughly in need of new ideas and new methods. It is fair to say that since the entry of the three acceding nations in January the Parliament has become a great deal more streamlined, but much remains to be done. Speaker after speaker in your Lordships' House this afternoon has addressed himself to noble Lords opposite and has invited them, pleaded with them, to come in and join us. I would reinforce that because although we, the European Conservatives, try extremely hard to be objective and to take the broad viewpoint, inevitably we are confused as it were with the British way of thought. A good, solid chunk of Socialist thought and speech, the other side of the hemicycle, would be very good for Britain, and more so for the Community as a whole.
May I lastly, before I say a word about one's own personal position, turn to the powers of the Parliament? My own conviction is that the best way they can be increased in the future is by some
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form of budgetary control. For the reasons I have given, I do not think that the Council of Ministers is either ready, willing, or can be expected in the immediate future, to give up the power which is vested in it. I do not think that the Parliament is capable—because, as I have said, there is no Government and no Opposition—of taking the initiative so that it can usurp some of the powers and functions of the Commission. It must, therefore, at least for the next few years, remain in its consultative role. But if it has a power to require to be consulted over budgetary matters, and the power, above all, to withhold the budget, it will achieve real power and a real control of Community institutions and their way of thought and life.
Finally, my Lords, there comes the question of the Parliament itself, direct elections and the membership of it. For myself, speaking purely factually, I have spent 12 working days this month on the Continent, and if it had not been for this debate in your Lordships' House, it would have been 14 out of 20 working days this month. That may or may not sound a little or a lot. The difficulty is that, while going about in the way one does is not, for me, particularly physically exhausting—although it is time-consuming—far more importantly, and far more dangerously, I find that one is cutting oneself off from the mainstream of political thought in this country. I happen to be a member of my county council, and they are extremely worried, as well they might be, at the future of local government in Scotland. Because of my commitment to the European Parliament I have not been able to study in the way I should have liked the Bill which is shortly to come to your Lordships' House, and I shall not be properly equipped to play any part in the Committee stage of the Bill in your Lordships' House. It is that sort of activity which is denied one at the moment and which I personally find slightly distressing. I do not think, however, that it will be possible to have effective members of the European Parliament unless they have some sort of contact with their national Parliaments, because unless one has contact with one's own Parliament one is a political fish in quite a different pond.
My Lords, I remain optimistic about European institutions. I am quite sure

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that we shall gradually set things along a course which will be acceptable both to the citizens of this country and, perhaps more especially, to the citizens of Europe. One has to remember that a Parliament, a system of government, unless it comes about by a revolution, does not happen overnight. Perhaps we are a little optimistic if we think in terms of the next five, ten or twenty years. I myself am quite sure that we shall evolve gradually a system of government by which the nearly 200 million people, or whatever the number is, in Europe will achieve harmony and some form of unity among themselves. As I say, however, I do not think it will come overnight, and it is perhaps a little foolish and unproductive to suppose that it will. I suggest that we should try to achieve things slowly, and step by step. For myself, I should like to see the European Parliament first of all put its own house in order, then go forward to some sort of financial control, and, finally, take over as the Legislature for all the institutions.
5.50 p.m.
LORD STRANGE: My Lords, I should like to congratulate my noble friend Lord O'Hagan, my noble friend Lord Reay and the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, on their excellent speeches, which have informed us all a great deal about the Common Market and certainly have "wised me" up a lot. I feel, from these speeches, that the critical period will occur next year; and we should try to go there as a fresh new country and stop some of the things that have been holding us back for a long time. We shoud think seriously about the take-over bid before we go there. I will speak—I think for not more than eight minutes—about the take-over bid as I understand it and know it, because I think this may be a very important point in our relationship with the Common Market in 1974. I pause for a moment because I am old, and when you are old you get dates mixed. I say to my family when I am fighting against their idea of voluntary euthanasia, "Because I am old I am interesting; I have been through this century; I am actually Victorian". I never get any further than that, because they say, "What you are going to say is that you remember everything that has happened, and you have done everything. We know all that. But you cannot even
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remember your children's birthdays. How can you remember anything that has happened in the past?" That is what one has to fight against in the family. But here I do remember enough for the purpose of my short speech.
I remember the start, on a very small scale, of the take-over bid, of which I have knowledge in a very small way. It is nice, after the grand ideas we hear in your Lordships' House, to hear little men talking about little things. Sam Smedley swam into my ken a very long time ago, when I was farming, and I agreed to go on to his contract for growing peas. I think Sam actually introduced pea canning into America; I think he called himself "National Canners Whether they were national or not I do not know, but Sam and I got on well together. I did what he said. I planted seed when he wanted it, and harvested my crop when he wanted it harvested. At his meetings there was a desperate and terrible row. People stood on benches and shouted and yelled. They waved the contract in Sam's face; they would not take any Hart of the contract. But I realised, knowing Sam, that if I was going hunting flies I should not go and hunt on Sam for them: he, with his contract, was supreme. So I did what he said. What he asked me to do was to buy his seed, grow his peas, plant at the time he wanted and harvest when he wanted. That was all. I did that. Sam had a very peculiar system. He put in two biners, which are expensive machines; he put them up and he put a shed over them. They belong to Sam: he paid five shillings a year as rent to make quite sure that they did belong to Sam. They were expensive machines, and they worked very well. As a result of my being nice and reasonable, he put me in "for free" a large slab of concrete at the other side; the silage came out and went on the concrete, and all I had to do was drive a mechanical tractor over it a few times and it made excellent silage.
Just one year, in all the years I was with Sam, everything went right. The rain came at the right time; there was no frost at the wrong time. I can remember this year very well, and this year we got enough silage to feed 120 cattle during the year—the usual number was 100 head. As I say, in that year we fed 120 on Sam's silage, which was "for free", and I thought that was good. We managed to get our catch crops grown again, and on

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that we fed sheep; we fed all our own hill sheep on it in the autumn, and we actually let the ground to other people. The final thing was that Sam sent me a cheque for just under £15,000, which to-day would be about £60,000, which seemed to be a worthwhile engagement. After I left the take-over started. I think Sam died, and the business was taken over first by some people who canned fish—though they had no objection to canning peas. Later, the business was taken over from them by the Imperial Tobacco Company. The Imperial Tobacco Company put on their experts, and they found that more people ate peas in England than ate them in Scotland, or bought them, which was remarkable. Possibly there is a bigger population in England than there is in Scotland. At any rate, the Imperial Tobacco Company shut up the Scots growing business, which was very easily done because Sam had only his annual contract, and when that did not come in the growers were finished. So the farmers there were left without their contract, and that was the end of Sam Smedley as we knew him. The farmers turned to the thing which was going on all over the country. Large crops were grown of wild oats and tares; and somewhere among them, I believe, was barley. And that is what I believe it has got down to now. That is just one little instance of how a take-over bid can spoil quite a prosperous little industry which was doing the land good.
I will go on to bigger ground. To-day I have here a friend, somebody in this House listening to the debate. My friend is in a very big way of business compared with me. He has works in different parts of the country which make drums, cans. It is a sort of unpopular and hopeless business to operate, because one cannot store air. Customers buy these cans; they have to be used. It is impossible to stockpile air, which is all it amounts to. The cans are made extremely well; people must have them, and they are very popular. It just happens that my friend is in difficulties at the moment because, although the demand for cans—for the Common Market, of course; for every sort of thing, petrol and so on—is very large indeed, he cannot supply the demand as he cannot get enough steel. As we know, this is a worldwide prob
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lem. No country is producing enough steel to meet the demand, but possibly the Italians, through strikes, and possibly our own British Steel, through strikes and other things—reorganization, for instance—is able to supply less steel to the world than we should wish. This is a little bit of a tragedy. It again comes back to the take-over bid; I think of it all as a sort of memorial. I see all these names of my youth written up, Stewart and Lloyd, blue chip, Colvilles, blue chip, Firth and Brown, blue chip, like a war memorial; and at the bottom I see the text which says, "They fought and lost, and fought again and won and lost and died, that British steel might live." And British Steel, as we know, is living to-day. That, I think, has rubbed it in hard enough.
I must say, in conclusion, that my friend has this product which is available. I have no interest, financial or otherwise, in this concern. If anybody wants a very useful thing, just ask me; I can get it for him, and it will cost him nothing. But the useful thing is to demonstrate how good his products are. It is merely a petrol tin that you put into your car; you screw it up, and you have petrol when that awful day comes when you run out. Just give me your names, my Lords, and I will see that you get a can. I think I have spoken long enough.
6.0 p.m.
LORD SHEPHERD: My Lords, the House has held the noble Lord, Lord Strange, in deep affection for many years, and therefore I hope I shall not offend the House if I seek to bring the debate back to the Motion that is before your Lordships to-day. We are indeed indebted to the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, for having moved this Motion and for having given us the opportunity to discuss the E.E.C. and to hear, in the form of a report, how some Members of your Lordships' House who are Members of the European Parliament see that Assembly and the other two big institutions, the Commission and the Council of Ministers. My Lords, I speak with some difficulty. I should certainly have liked to follow some of the noble Lords in their plea that the Labour Party should participate at Strasbourg. It may well be that one day we shall, and I have no doubt that Strasbourg will be richer and

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more powerful as a result of our attendance. The noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, spoke of the loneliness of being one of two Liberal Members. I wish to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, because he sits there as one Independent Member. He sits, if my memory is right, among the Communists, the Fascists if there are such—there are none.
LORD O'HAGAN: My Lords, may I correct the noble Lord? I was at first put next door to the Italian neo-Fascists. I objected politely and was removed to be put next to the Italian Communists, and I now sit between them and Mr. Taverne.
LORD SHEPHERD: The noble Lord has my sympathy. The noble Lord has a difficult task, unlike the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, and the noble Lord, Lord Reay, who sit with a group of fellow-Parliamentarians and other Members who sit in their own political groups. They have many of the resources, particularly of secretariat, of which we in this British Parliament would indeed be jealous. So I congratulate the noble Lord on what he does at the European Parliament and also the lightly humorous and yet very pertinent way in which he introduced this debate.
My Lords, I speak again with difficulty because I am a member of the Select Committee which your Lordships' House set up under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Maybray-King, to look into the way in which Parliament could best scrutinise the activities of the Commission and the Council of Ministers. That Report I think can be said to be now in its final course of preparation. I hope it will be before your Lordships' House very soon. I say this, not because one wishes to see the end of some six months of labour in good company but because to me it is intolerable that this Parliament, for six months now and perhaps for a further six months, should have no machinery for scrutinising the tremendous quantity of paper, some of it immaterial but some of it of very great significance; and that all this should be done by those bodies with a British Parliament unable to consider it or influence its Ministers. I hope that this Report will be before your Lordships' House and that it will be the wish of your Lordships to ensure that machinery
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is set up so that at least this House may perform its functions as the other Chamber of Parliament. I think it was Mr. Kirk who, on the 16th January in Strasbourg, said that silence signifies consent. If that continues and Parliament remains silent on these matters we cannot complain if the Council of Ministers, the Commission and the European Parliament do things to which we, as a national Parliament, have an objection. I will come back to that issue in a moment.
There were a number of points that I should like to follow. First of all, I should like to take what is called the location of the Parliament. The noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, mentioned this matter in his speech. It was the noble and learned Lord who sits on the Woolsack who coined the phrase "stark, staring bonkers", but anyone who conceived of the Parliament of Europe being in Strasbourg on some occasions, meeting on others in Luxembourg and in committee in Brussels, with the Council of Ministers and the Commission in Brussels, cannot have been in his right senses. I personally feel that if the European Community is to be sustained and developed as a union and as a cohesive force, the two institutions, the Commission and the Council of Ministers, must be seated or sited alongside the European Parliament. There must be a recognition by all the officials of the European Community that the Parliament is there and is watching over them. I think it is highly dangerous that the sense of disengagement which now exists should continue.
Again, and I speak personally here, I think it is wrong that the European capital—because this is what it will be—should be in the capital of a member State. We ought to look to the creation of a neutral area, with proximity, of course, to ease of movement and transport. We ought to set up a European international zone in which the Commission and the Council of Ministers, with all their staff and their machinery, plus the European Parliament, can be established. Perhaps one day, when the European Union develops, this will come about.
The noble Lord, Lord Reay, and the noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, mentioned the problems of Members of Parliaments, their clash of interests between their national Parliament and their duties in

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the European Parliament. They are not the only ones that I have found to have had this same problem. Clearly, this is one of the factors that will perhaps put the pressure on within the European Parliament for some new basis of membership. My Lords, it is true that the Communities have agreed that by a certain date—I think 1976—there should be an elected Parliament on a universal franchise. Like other noble Lords, I must say that I really question whether this will be achieved. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Reay, who spelt out in considerable detail the different methods of election within the nine States, and clearly if there is to be a universal franchise there must be agreement by all nine, and this of course will take a great deal of time. My Lords, numbers are again important. If we kept the European Parliament at its present size I question how we could ever divide this country into 36 constituencies, seeking as we do a balance between size, type of locality and interests—industrial and agricultural—and also taking into account the question of distance. If we are going to have elected Members, clearly 36 elected members from this country would be so detached from the electorate that one could hardly call them Members of Parliament, at least as we in this country understand that term.
It may be that we shall have to evolve slowly here, but I do not think the target that has been set by the Communities is at all realistic. To me the real issue lies in the words of the noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, when he said that there can be no halfway house. If we are going to have a European Community based on democracy, then we must have an organisation in which ordinary men and women throughout Europe can place their trust. I do not think that anyone who has had any close association with the institutions of the Community could ever say that they are to-day a basis on which this nation—and let us speak particularly of this nation to-night—could transfer its full and total sovereignty.
Clearly, the institutions need to evolve. The question is, which should come first? All the countries of the E.E.C. are democracies. True, their method of Parliamentary control is different, but, so far
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as I am concerned, democracy is not a question of influence and it is not a question of power, it is a question of control; the power of an elected Assembly to say "Yes" or "No" to a proposal. I suspect that for many years, whatever evolution there may be in the democratic procedures of the European union, it is unlikely that a democratic Assembly will evolve in which all the countries are prepared to vest that power. If that is the case, clearly the national Parliaments, the nine of them, have to be regarded as part of the European institutions.
I should like to develop this for a moment, because I think that it was a theme which, although it did not come through very clearly, is very important; and I think that it was my noble friend Lady Gaitskell who referred to the "facelessness" of the European institutions so far as the British people are concerned. Let us take the Commission as a particular case. There are thirteen Commissioners. I must say from what I have learned in the last six months from the Select Committee that, by and large, they are men of the highest capability and integrity. But how many British people know those Commissioners, other than perhaps Mr. George Thomson and Sir Christopher Soames? They do not know the names or the duties of any of the other Commissioners.
The Council of Ministers meet and make binding decisions, but all they do is conducted in secrecy. We know the decision, and on occasion, when the Minister comes to Parliament to explain them, we may know the reasons for the decision. But, by and large, the British public have no knowledge at all as to how that decision has been arrived at. I am convinced that, unless you can bring to the British public (and this will take time), a sense of the way in which decisions are reached and why proposals are made—and not just where the benefits accrue or where the hardships may arise—in the European context and that these were right in a European form, we are not likely to persuade the British public to go much further than they have gone so far.
Therefore, we need for the Commission and for the Council of Ministers—the latter is more difficult, but certainly

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this applies for the Commission—to be even more open looking, more information conscious, than they are to-day. I must say that the Commission is infinitely more outward looking. At least one has the ability to look in more than one does within the Whitehall machinery. I do not think that this is entirely the desire of the Commissioners; I think that it is the mere absence of the Secrets Act, and it may also be that there are national Governments who are seeking ways and means of influencing a situation. But I believe that the British people need to know a great deal more. If it comes to that, what does the British Parliament know? I have seen some of these yellow forms that are circulated with our papers. I doubt whether any noble Lord, even if he was able to give his full-time service to your Lordships' House, would have the slightest idea of what those papers mean, and how to sort out the important from the unimportant.
The issue about which I wish to be satisfied is the way in which the peoples of the nine States can, first of all, be satisfied as to what is going on, and to build up trust in the machinery as it evolves, and, until then, to ensure that the national Parliaments which, at the moment, are the only elected representatives, should have greater control than certainly we, in this British Parliament, have. I would not wish to go so far as our friends in Denmark, where they place their Ministers under fairly rigid disciplines. I think that there are dangers to the national interest in that respect, but I certainly feel that if the Government wish to make us in this country more European minded than we are now, there needs to be a greater transfer of information and explanation not only to Parliament but to the British people.
I cannot remember which noble Lord said that no Parliament has ever got power by gift. This is very true, and it may well be true of the European Parliament. The European Parliament has some latent negative powers which a good Parliamentarian, like Michael Foot, would no doubt exploit to the full and to the embarrassment of the Council of Ministers and the Commission. However, we need to find some way in which we can influence our Ministers, and it is this matter which the Committee, under
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the noble Lord, Lord Maybray-King, will be putting before your Lordships' House. The institutions have just about worked when there were the Six; I think those who have had any connection with them in recent months know that they cannot survive with the Nine. Therefore, we shall listen with the greatest interest to the way in which the noble Baroness, Lady Tweedsmuir, answers the many questions that have been put, so that we in your Lordships' House will have at least a glimmer of the present view of Her Majesty's Government of the three main institutions, and, in particular, of the European Parliament.
6.20 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE): My Lords, I should like to join with those who have paid their tribute of thanks to the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, for having given us the chance to have this debate to-day. I should also like to pay tribute, in particular, to those four Peers who have spoken who are our representatives in the European Parliament; I regret very much that the other three representatives have had to be away on business. I think this is the first occasion that your Lordships' House has debated the specific topic of the institutions of the European Community, particularly the European Parliament, but I am quite certain that it will not be the last. Few would deny that, of all the member nations of the Community, the British have the greatest attachment to their own institutions of government. We say that they have evolved over centuries in a continuous and almost unbroken process; and it is therefore natural, now that we are full members of the European Community, that we should take just as keen an interest in its institutions to see how they can be related to our own.
I was sorry, in a way, that the Select Committee, of which the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, is a distinguished member, was not able to report before this debate, or that we could not have had this debate a little later. Yet in a way, perhaps, that will give us an excuse to have two debates, one on the nature of the animal and the other on how this Parliament is to be able to consider proposals in draft before a decision is made, because

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that is really at the root of most people's concern. I would agree with those, including the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, and the noble Baroness, Lady Gaitskell, who have said that the public knows very little about the institutions and much less about personalities, except perhaps our own. I found this debate of enormous interest. It has given one a number of ideas, and it also gives me a chance to try to describe the Government's attitude to some very difficult, but very fascinating, problems.
I should like to start with the Summit Conference last October in Paris, because it was then that the Community was given a programme of work which could be called ambitious, considering the timetable and what they had to undertake. It included a commitment to reinforce the institutions, particularly the European Parliament, and we as a Government consider that this commitment is very important indeed. We also want to improve the impact of the Community as a whole not only on the people of Europe, but on those who we think will become associated in one way or another, on those in the Third World and on those who will not be associated but will, I hope, look upon the Community not just as a technical and economic arrangement, but in the terms described by the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, when he said that he hoped the Community would be known to have a human face. I was glad to hear what the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, said about the consumer interests, because it is encouraging to know that the Community has already done a great deal in that direction, as that will certainly help the public to understand more of what it is all about.
It is perfectly true that no institution can adjust to change without the political will to change, and that is really what we are talking about to-day. The noble Lord, Lord Chalfont, who I regret is not here at the moment, said he thought that any institutional development which took place would be over a period of time; in other words, it would evolve rather slowly. I should like to suggest that it will probably evolve within certain clearly defined limits. The Council of Ministers has been referred to by many noble Lords, particularly the noble Lord who opened the debate and the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn. I cannot see that the
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primacy of the Council Ministers in the enlarged Community will be changed for a considerable time, if ever. It is true that the Community's treaties provide for majority voting on various questions, but I do not foresee a departure in the near future from the present practice whereby decisions affecting vital national interests are taken unanimously. I say this really for the reason put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Gore-Booth. We can build the Community only on a firm basis of consent, which at the start, means national consent expressed in traditional ways. Over a period of time we may indeed be able to build a genuine Europe, but it must be based on the consent of the peoples who compose it. The noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, asked who could question the Council of Ministers. Of course they can be questioned, as he knows well, by the European Parliament, and the Council of Ministers are—
LORD O'HAGAN: My Lords, I did not ask that, I asked who could question the Council of Permanent Representatives.
BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE: I am sorry, my Lords. The Council of Permanent Representatives cannot be questioned by the European Parliament. That is perfectly true. But of course the Council of Ministers can be questioned. I shall leave it at that. I should like to consider the relations between the Council and the European Parliament, which were raised by my noble friend Lord Mansfield, and I shall refer to them in more detail when I come to the question of paragraph 15 of the Summit Communiqué, which the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, asked me about. The very important work of the Commission is also defined in the Treaties, and I do not see any reason why there should be radical departures here, because, as the noble Lord who opened the debate said, the Commission has really done very well. I thought he was rather attracted by what it is, by the people who serve on it and by what it has achieved. Of course it not only has this immense programme of work given to it by the Summit Conference, but it also has to cope with the administrative problems posed by the accession of the three new Members. It is bringing forward proposals to the Council on

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all matters requested by the Summit Conference, and I should like to join with the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, in paying tribute to the energy and competence of the members of the Commission, in which I hope the other noble Lords also join.
The noble Lord asked me about paragraph 15 of the Summit Communiqué, which referred to the reinforcement of the institutions. There are a number of relevant documents. The one from the Commission was put in the Library of the House about ten days ago, and includes the Commission's own proposals. The documents are very long and I do not think I could possibly go into them in detail. But, roughly, they comprise two main sets of proposals; one on the question of powers, and the other on the question of practical measures. To give just one example from that on powers, the Commission suggests that representatives of the Council should take part in a Second Reading, and members of Parliament should present Parliament's views to the Council before a final decision is taken. To take just one or two examples of practical measures, the Commission suggests that the Council should consult the Parliament on all important trade agreements; that the Council should not start work on a Commission proposal until the Parliament's opinion is received; and there are various other measures which are rather long. It is quite a big document, so I do not think it is suitable to discuss in detail, and I would say only that all of these proposals are being considered by the various institutions. None has yet been put forward. Her Majesty's Government are very interested in strengthening the powers of the European Parliament.
One must recognise that there is a feeling which is widespread that the European Community is not subject to a sufficient degree of democratic influence and control. I believe that so long as that impression persists, whether it is true or not—because it is all in varying degrees—it will be difficult for the Community to make the kind of progress and development that I think we all want. It is true that the members of the Community possibly look to us (because, after all, we have a very long Parliamentary tradition) to do what we can and to sug
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gest how we can strengthen the European Parliament. Successive British Governments have said that the pressure of events within the Community will bring about moves towards a representative democracy, which must of course involve the European Parliament; and your Lordships will no doubt recall that the previous British Government, in the joint Anglo-Italian Declaration of April, 1969, stated:
"Europe must be firmly based on democratic institutions and the European Communities should be sustained by an elected Parliament as provided for in the Treaty of Rome";
and the present Government have endorsed that declaration.
Now the whole question is: when? We consider that the European Parliament should first strengthen its own influence by using its present powers under the treaties to the largest possible extent. If it did so, it would be able to do a great deal in shaping the enlarged Community—above all, if it made the necessary procedural changes; and the very interesting document put forward by Mr. Kirk on behalf of the British Members of the European Parliament—
LORD SHEPHERD: The Conservative Members.
BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE: The Conservative Members, yes; and may I say, in relation to that, how much I hope that the members of the Labour Party will take part at the earliest possible moment. Otherwise, of course, we shall have it all our own way, and surely they do not want that.
I understand that the new Question Time procedure which has been introduced has enabled some searching questioning of members of the Commission and the Council, and I am told that this has had an invigorating effect upon the whole system. I hope that is true. My noble friend Lord Mansfield referred to this. As this debate has shown, there is no shortage of new ideas for further changes. For example, improvements in the committee system of the European Parliament which gave more attention to policy matters, to the study of the administration and to the exposure of anything which a Member might feel should be improved, and less to subordinate legislation, would be very good

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improvements and practical ones. It has also been suggested that there might be the ability to call witnesses and to hear their evidence in public; and, following a suggestion by one of the British Members, the creation of a Public Accounts Committee is also under consideration. Obviously there is undoubted scope for this kind of improvement; but we hope that the European Parliament itself will take the lead in considering these matters, as indeed has been done in Mr. Kirk's paper, and as a Government we shall certainly encourage them in this.
Now apart from some practical procedural changes such as these, there may well be scope for introducing other changes to involve the Parliament more closely with the decision-making processes in the Community. Some of these changes could be made without amending the treaties, and others could not. I understand that for the Second Reading procedure it would not be necessary to amend the treaties; but alterations in the budgetary powers of the European Parliament, for example, particularly referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Reay, and the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, would demand amendment of the treaties. I was asked about the distribution of this rather formidable document, about 50 copies of which were divided between the Vote Office and the Printed Paper Office about ten days ago. Perhaps I can summarise just one or two of the proposals. For instance, the agreement of the Parliament would be required to a decision by the Council to launch a loan; the whole resources could be created by the Council acting unanimously in agreement with the Parliament; and it would be the Parliament, rather than the Council and the Parliament together, which would give a discharge to the Commission in respect of the implementation of the budget. There are a great many of these proposals, some of considerable importance; and the time to consider whether amendments or revisions are required will be when the study is being made by the institutions of the Community in 1975 on how to achieve European union in 1980, in accordance with the summit proposals; because these budget proposals are not only complex, but they also take the form of a draft treaty. So I would say
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only that in principle Her Majesty's Government are in favour of strengthening the budgetary powers of the European Parliament.
My Lords, another very important factor is the balance between the European Parliament and national Parliaments, and that, of course, is why, as a Government, we attach such great importance to satisfactory arrangements, which we are sure will come from the Select Committee presided over by the noble Lord, Lord Maybray-King. As your Lordships know, we have already made a number of improvements to ensure that Members are kept informed, so far as possible, of the draft legislation from the Commission, such as by having a monthly statement to forecast the agenda and an explanatory memorandum of some documents. I think this will help considerably in keeping us informed. Even though the noble Lord did not think much of the Yellow Paper, at any rate it gives one a fair idea of the documents which are available. There is another factor which is of great importance, and it is this. It must be recognised that it is with the European Parliament that the Commission and the Council are in a direct relationship, and it is with the Community's work that the European Parliament is properly concerned. Therefore, the European Parliament's influence on Community policies is complementary to that of national Parliaments; and these of course, influence individual member Governments and their attitude on the Council of Ministers.
When we try to strengthen the European Parliament, we do not, by so doing, automatically weaken national Parliaments. What we want to ensure is that the European Parliament has the necessary powers to wield influence and control over both the Council and the Commission, in addition to the influence and control that national Parliaments have over their own country's representatives on the Council. Therefore this procedure is a complementary one between the national and the European Parliaments. It is true that as the policies of the Community which were foreshadowed in the 1972 Summit Communiqué are developed, there will be an increase in the importance and number of decisions taken within the Community. However, what surely matters, I suggest to the House, is

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the democratic nature of those decisions, which it is the European Parliament's business to ensure, to complement the influence and control exerted by national Parliaments. The object is that together they should ensure the fundamental balance between the Legislature and the Executive.
My Lords, your Lordships have referred to the question of direct elections to the European Parliament, and, as I have suggested, I do not think that this should take precedence over the many other improvements which can be made. But we accept the obligation—
LORD GLADWYN: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Baroness for one moment on the question of direct elections? There are two issues, as I understand it. One is whether there is a possibility of organising direct elections on a European basis, on a general franchise, and the other is a possibility, as a pro tem. measure, of directly electing members nationally. Is the noble Baroness able to say anything on the latter suggestion?
BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE: My Lords, I think that at the moment I would say that the question whether we should have elections to the European Parliament on a national basis in other words, tied to our own national Elections—is not one which has yet really been considered because the Summit Communiqué talked about direct European elections, which is of course a very different matter. But I should like to say how very much I understand the problems which have been so vividly put before us by many noble Lords who have spoken, and particularly those who represented us in Strasbourg, about the almost intolerable strains which are put on them at the moment, particularly in another place. Having myself served for two or three years in the Council of Europe, which was a very different thing, and also for two years at the United Nations—a service that similarly involved departure from my constituency—I can understand that it is a very difficult decision to make. Quite apart from that, the work demand on our representatives, with the constant travelling involved, is tremendous. Speaking entirely off the record—although I am speaking from this Box and am supposed
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never to refer to the other place—I should have thought that at the moment the immediate practical need is for a system of pairing. I put that out as a thought, unofficially, from the Box.
My Lords, a great number of noble Lords who spoke referred to the site of the European Parliament and wondered whether it would not be better to have it near the seats of power in Europe—in other words, to have it located in Brussels. From the practical point of view I can see what this means, but according to the relevant Article in the Treaty of Rome any question of a new site (or a neutral site, as was suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd) has to be resolved by the common consent of Member States. Therefore from this Box to-day I do not think I am in a position to say whether I favour a neutral place, or Brussels or any other place. That is something which must be discussed particularly in the European Parliament and it is for them to bring pressure on the representatives of the national Governments. Certainly I think this is very important.
In conclusion, I do not think I can stress strongly enough that while we concern ourselves with the institutions of Europe and in the evolving Europe, the proceedings in this House and in another place remain fundamental; because Europe can be built only upon consent, and we have to carry the people of Europe with us wherever we wish to go.
6.42 p.m.
LORD O'HAGAN: My Lords, I should like to thank everbody who participated in or listened to this debate. I think it has been a worthwhile occasion and I hope everybody enjoyed himself as much as I did. May I change the mood slightly and say that while appreciating the care, courtesy and thoroughness that we have conic to expect from the noble Baroness I submitted before the weekend detailed lists of questions, and I warned her that I was particularly interested in the working of the Council. I asked questions in initiating the debate and there were questions by other speakers about the the actual machinery within the Council itself and not solely about what goes on at the meeting of the Council (of some 150 people) but about what goes on in between. There are great log jams and

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congestions; and proposals from the Commission get held up and major decisions get delayed. I should like to serve notice on the noble Baroness that I shall have to ask a lot of questions about this in the future.
BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE: My Lords, if I may interrupt the noble Lord; it is true that he wrote me a letter with questions in it—I have forgotten how many. I have answered the questions that he put to me in debate. There were six. I answered every one.
LORD O'HAGAN: My Lords, I am not going to haggle about something the noble Baroness asked for. I asked in debate a question about the Commission and about Article 139 of the Treaty which was meant to reinforce the Commission but which, because of the unanimity procedure in the Council that has evolved, is a handicap. I hope that the Government will answer this point on another occasion. I think that we had some interesting commitments from the Government in that the noble Baroness said that she was interested in strengthening the power of the European Parliament and that the Government support in principle the idea of strengthening budgetary power; but I do not think your Lordships should be easily lulled by the dulcet tones of the noble Baroness when reading out proposals made by a Community institution which has not yet been approved by the Council and which are merely on the trampolene of discussion. This is not by any means a replacement for a firm commitment.
It is a little disquieting that the noble Baroness should refer to the remoteness of the institutions and that she should agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Gaitskell, about the lack of knowledge among people in this country and in other member States of the Commissioners, yet suggest no way of overcoming it. When she talks about direct elections she does not bring in this point; and when she talks about the European Parliament she does not put her finger on this as an institution of the Communities that can bring all other institutions into the lives of ordinary people. I do not want to make a pleasant afternoon unpleasant by being nasty, but I think we must continue to press the Government to apply their minds a little
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more seriously to some of the topics on which so many noble Lords have expressed themselves to-day. My Lords, I beg leave to withdrawn my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

STATUTE LAW REVISION (NORTHERN IRELAND) BILL [H.L.]
Reported from the Joint Committee on Consolidation Bills with Amendments, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House; Bill to be printed as amended.
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