Sitting of 8 February 1973

Preamble
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]
ORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
  NORTHERN IRELAND

    Royal Ulster Constabulary
    Mr. David Jamesasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what plans he has to improve career prospects in the Royal Ulster Constabulary and to obtain recruits from all sections of the community for it.
    The Minister of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. David Howell): Officers are encouraged to enhance their career prospects by taking university courses, and the new course leading to a Higher National Certificate of Police Studies. Additionally, special career opportunities are offered to university graduates. For higher police training, selected officers attend colleges in Great Britain.
    As to the second part of the Question, 11 recruiting officers are engaged full-time to attract recruits from all sections of the community. They keep in touch with all likely sources of recruitment and with community leaders.
    Mr. James: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. Will he impress upon those serving in the Royal Ulster Constabulary that they have the most vital and creative rôle to play in the future development of the community? Will he also consider the possibility of setting up area watch committees on the English line, which could possibly reflect the political and religious balance of such a community, in such a way hoping to create a police force which is universally acceptable in the Province?
    Mr. Howell: I can assure my hon. Friend that the Royal Ulster Constabulary has a strongly developed sense of community service and is fully aware of its heavy responsibilities in the Northern Ireland community. As to any developments of police work in the future, those will have to be considered in due course.
    Mr. Stallard: Does the Minister accept —I am sure that he does—that there is growing concern and a body of opinion in this country which is demanding the withdrawal of troops from the Six Counties, for a whole number of reasons? Will he accept that the only substitute is a police force which is acceptable to both communities? In that vein will he therefore at least study very carefully the only positive and concrete proposals for any replacement of troops contained in the Social Democratic and Labour Party's reply to the Green Paper, in which it outlined some detailed proposals for a police force? Has the hon. Gentleman any views on that, and will he make a statement on the proposals?
    Mr. Howell: I accept the hon. Member's diagnosis. Obviously all ideas for restoring normal police services to all sections of the community in the future will have to be studied.
    Rev. Ian Paisley: When the Minister is conducting the recruiting campaign for members for the Royal Ulster Constabulary, will he bear in mind the deplorable state of many of the police stations in Northern Ireland, especially the police station in my constituency at Larne, and that at Lisburn, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux)? Will he make an announcement today about positive steps to improve the amenities of the police in their police stations?
    Mr. Howell: I agree with my hon. Friend that this is a very important matter. We are anxious to see that all needs in the way of equipment and facilities are provided for the Royal Ulster Constabulary, and every effort is made to do just that.
    Mr. Michael McNair-Wilsonasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what awards for gallantry have been won by members of the Royal Ulster Constabulary since January 1968.
    Mr. David Howell: One George Medal, seven British Empire Medals for gallantry and two Queen's Commendations for brave conduct.
    Further recommendations are under consideration.
    Mr. McNair-Wilson: That is indeed a remarkable record of bravery. Does not my hon. Friend agree that the whole of the Royal Ulster Constabulary has shown the greatest devotion to duty in the face of a wave of violence never before seen in the United Kingdom? Does not he think that the members of the RUC deserve some kind of recognition, and will he consider the award to them of the General Service Medal which our troops already receive?
    Mr. Howell: I gladly agree with my hon. Friend's commendation of the bravery and devotion to service of the RUC. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has told the House that he is not convinced that there should be a general award to the RUC in addition to the individual awards that have been and will continue to be made for police gallantry and distinguished service. I think that is the right decision.
    Mr. McNamara: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the best way of recognising the work done by the force, instead of singling out individuals, would be to pay the members of the force additional payments such as are made to the fire service and other forces in Northern Ireland for the extra work they do, and not to make them into another sacrificial lamb for the Government's pay and incomes freeze?
    Mr. Howell: This matter has been raised, but it is for the decision of the police authority.
    Mr. Maginnis: Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that where bravery is shown by any member of the RUC it should be recognised, and that the morale of the force is an important factor to take into account?
    Mr. Howell: I certainly agree with that, and it is reflected in the awards that have been made and will be taken into consideration in future recommendations.
    Mr. Goodhartasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what action he proposes to take designed to increase the number of recruits for the Royal Ulster Constabulary.
    The Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Peter Mills): This is a matter which is constantly kept under review by the Police Authority. Over 1,400 men and women have been recruited to the RUC during the last three years, and since its establishment in 1970 there have been over 2,700 recruits to the Reserve.
    Mr. Goodhart: As the events of the last few hours have underlined the fact that there is a desperate need for more policemen, will my hon. Friend consider reducing the minimum height requirement for new recruits from 5 ft. 8 ins.? At this moment is it not ridiculous to insist on a height requirement which would lead to rejection on physical grounds of at least one member of the English football eleven and one member of the All Blacks international side.
    Mr. Mills: I am sure that the Police Authority will note what my hon. Friend has said. This may be one way of helping in the matter. I believe the important thing is by advertising, through the recruiting officers and by our supporting the RUC, to get the recruits which are so desperately needed.

    Border Poll
    Mr. Douglasasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the publicity arrangements relating to the border poll.
    The Minister of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. William van Straubenzee): Returning officers have a statutory obligation to give notice of the poll and publish the locations of polling stations. In addition, a substantial programme of explanatory publicity has been undertaken by the Northern Ireland Office Information Service, designed to ensure that the electorate in Northern Ireland is fully aware of the arrangements for the poll and particularly the extended facilities for postal voting.
    Advertisements about the poll have been placed in daily and weekly newspapers throughout Northern Ireland and,

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    to cater for qualified voters living outside Northern Ireland, in a number of British national newspapers. Information has also been transmitted on BBC and Ulster Television.
    Mr. Douglas: I thank the Minister for that reply. In the light of yesterday's events, will he consider placing an appendage to any advertisement, indicating that Her Majesty's Government view the poll as an opportunity for democratic decisions to take place in Northern Ireland—although some of us might have misgivings about the exact nature of it—and that these democratic decisions are an opportunity for all of Ulster to pronounce on their allegiance to the United Kingdom and, therefore, are contrary to the events that took place yesterday, where "mobocracy" ruled rather than democracy?
    Mr. van Straubenzee: I naturally join with the hon. Gentleman in his condemnation of the affairs of yesterday. Nothing that happened yesterday will alter the course of events concerning this question.
    Mr. Russell Kerr: Does not the Minister agree that the poll will not help community relations in Northern Ireland, and even at this late stage will he not consider reversing the previous decision that it should be held?
    Mr. van Straubenzee: No, Sir. The matter has been amply discussed and debated by the House, and a decision has been arrived at.
    Rev. Ian Paisleyasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what are the terms of reference of the project into the border poll which he has agreed with Queen's University; and how many will be employed in the project team.
    Mr. van Straubenzee: The terms of reference are to record events leading up to the poll, to survey the administrative arrangements for conducting it, and to analyse the outcome, with particular reference to the reduced number of polling places and the general availability of postal voting facilities. The research team will consist of about 50 people.
    Rev. Ian Paisley: Will the Minister tell the House whether the object of the project is to ascertain whether it is pos-
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    sible in future to run elections with this limited number of polling stations? Is he aware that in many areas there is resentment that the team will be visiting polling booths when the poll is taking place? Will he not agree that such a team visiting polling booths in this country would lead to a certain amount of resentment? How many of the 50 team members will take an oath of secrecy on the day of the referendum and will have the opportunity of watching people cast their votes?
    Mr. van Straubenzee: I gladly make it absolutely clear that all members of the team will take appropriate oaths of secrecy. They will be treated in this respect precisely like the observers whom my hon. Friend and other hon. Members will appoint. Of course, one, but only one, of the results of the survey may be to provide hard facts on the use of a limited number of polling stations. But in general terms the survey will assist my right hon. Friend in making that report to the House which he has undertaken to give.
    Mr. McNamara: Does the Minister recall that the intention of the poll was to provide one result covering all six counties? Will he confirm that it is not the team's intention to analyse the voting in such a way as to discover which way different districts vote? Will he confirm that it will not be the intention of Her Majesty's administration in Northern Ireland to seek, either through this team or in any other way, to discover how different districts poll? I think that they should, but in view of the undertakings——
    Mr. Speaker: Order. This is Question Time.
    Mr. van Straubenzee: I am happy to make clear that nothing in this research project will identify how individuals or groups of people have cast their votes.
    Mr. McMaster: Is the Minister aware that many people in Northern Ireland welcome the appointment of independent observers to see that the poll is properly and fairly conducted?
    Mr. van Straubenzee: I am much obliged to my hon. Friend for the comment. It will be of considerable assistance to all sections of the community in Northern Ireland.
    Mr. Fernyhough: Will the Minister given an assurance that in selecting the members of the team no reference was made to their political or religious affiliations?
    Mr. van Straubenzee: The Secretary of State is not responsible in this respect. It is an academic matter and the selection of the academics is therefore a matter for the distinguished professor who is in charge of the team. I have no reason to suppose that the considerations mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman were in his mind.

    Constitution (White Paper)
    4. Mr. Stratton Millsasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will introduce legislation so as to have a plebiscite of the people of Northern Ireland on the terms of the proposed White Paper; and if he will make a statement.
    The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. William Whitelaw): I have no plans to do so.
    Mr. Mills: We naturally recognise the sovereignty of Parliament in this matter and also the difficulties of having a plebiscite on such a complex issue as the White Paper. But does my right hon. Friend nevertheless recognise the vital importance of ensuring a broad cross-section of support of the people of Northern Ireland to endorse and accept the proposals in the White Paper? Will he bear that in mind when considering whether to have some form of mechanism by which that could be done?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I bear very much in mind what my hon Friend says about the need for broad acceptance of the White Paper. If I went further than that I might be seeking to anticipate what might be in the White Paper.
    Mr. Kilfedder: Will my right hon. Friend give an assurance to the House that the White Paper will be put to the people of Northern Ireland in the form of a plebiscite, because the proposals in the White Paper are bound to be complex and inter-related and it will be impossible for ordinary people in Northern Ireland to vote on them? They should be given an opportunity to deliberate upon them quietly and reasonably.
    Mr. Whitelaw: I am most anxious that the people in Northern Ireland should deliberate quietly and reasonably on these matters, but if my hon. Friend believes that the proposals would be so complex that they would be difficult for people to understand, it is difficult on that basis to believe that it is right to put the proposals in the terms of a referendum or a plebiscite.
    Captain Orrasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he can yet announce the date of publication of the White Paper on the future constitution of Northern Ireland.
    Mr. Whitelaw: No, Sir.
    Captain Orr: Is my right hon. Friend aware that, while all rational people in Ulster who believe in the democratic process will deplore yesterday's and last night's events, one of the contributory factors is the uncertainty about the political future? Will my right hon. Friend at least confirm that he understands the need to publish what he has to say about the future constitution as soon as possible after the result of the referendum?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I noticed a slight trap at the end of my hon. and gallant Friend's question. I am not in any way committing myself as to when the White Paper will be published, because I do not know. Of course, we understand that uncertainty is one of the problems, but I do not accept that uncertainty was the basic reason behind the troubles yesterday and at other times.
    Mr. Orme: We read in the Press reports from both Northern Ireland and the Republic that there might be some delay in the White Paper after yesterday's events. Will the Secretary of State assure us that he will not be deflected from producing the White Paper as soon as possible?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for asking me that question. There will be no question of deviating from the course we have chosen to pursue, which has been backed by this Parliament throughout, because of any events that take place. Those who think that they will divert us are making a great mistake.
    Rev. Ian Paisley: Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that the White Paper is not yet written? Will he also assure the House that the uncompleted political discussions with political parties that he has promised to pursue will take place before he makes up his mind on the issue of the White Paper?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I assure the hon. Gentleman that my colleagues and I have not made up our minds on the contents of the White Paper. Equally, I have said that I am prepared to have further discussions on the White Paper. I am certainly prepared to have discussions with the hon. Gentleman and his party, which, as he appreciates, we have not yet had.

    Harland and Wolff
    Mr. Duffyasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he is yet in a position to make a statement on the terms and conditions of the recent injection of public funds into Harland and Wolff.
    Mr. David Howell: The Ministry of Commerce has made a formal offer of assistance to Harland and Wolff Ltd. in connection with the company's expansion scheme. The terms and conditions of the offer are presently under discussion between the company and the Ministry.
    Mr. Duffy: Does the Minister recall that when the Secretary of State made the original announcement about aid last May I asked him to impress upon the workers at Harland and Wolff that in return for the generosity of the British taxpayer they should give their wholehearted support to the Secretary of State's policies? In view of yesterday's shut-down at Harland and Wolff, does the Minister not think that unless there is a fundamental change of direction there, as elsewhere in Northern Ireland, there is no prospect of that support or of a corresponding movement towards a balanced work force at Harland and Wolff?
    Mr. Howell: In many areas of work and in many industries there was a shutdown yesterday, not always as a result of the wishes of the people, some of whom would have liked to work. Let us be clear about that. But the general performance of Harland and Wolff in industrial terms, at both shop-floor and management level, has been highly credit-
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    able and a triumph for the determination to keep Ulster still in business through the very difficult circumstances in which it has had to operate.
    Mr. Speaker: Order. I have allowed a Private Notice Question about what happened yesterday.
    Mr. McMaster: Is the Minister aware that the management of Harland and Wolff, in whom we have every confidence, is determined that there will be no discrimination in employment by the company? Does the House not welcome the magnificent order won by the company recently?
    Mr. Howell: I am sure that the House will welcome that magnificent order. As to the specific subject of discrimination, as I have said before from this Dispatch Box the chairman, directors and management of Harland and Wolff have given clear assurances that their recruiting policy is, and will continue to be, one of non-discrimination. I believe that that is now being reflected in the current recruiting figures.
    Mr. Orme: Will the Minister draw the attention mainly of members of my trade union, the AEUW, to the fact that British taxpayers' money is sustaining Harland and Wolff? While we would support them in any trade union activity we cannot support them in sectarian activity. Will he therefore draw that to their attention because the company's survival may depend upon such matters?
    Mr. Howell: I am sure that the members of the hon. Member's trade union will note what he said.

    Housing Loans (Supplementary Benefit Recipients)
    Mr. Molyneauxasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many persons in receipt of supplementary benefit have received, or are being considered for, loans from the Northern Ireland Housing Executive under the Small Dwellings (Northern Ireland) Act.
    Mr. Peter Mills: The Small Dwellings Acquisition Acts do not apply to the Northern Ireland Housing Executive. I assume that my hon. Friend is referring to loans made under the provisions of the Housing Executive Act (Northern Ireland) 1971; to date, the executive has

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    not received an application from anyone in receipt of supplementary benefit.
    Mr. Molyneaux: Is my hon. Friend aware that there have been cases of supplementary benefit being used to provide certain capital assets? Does not he agree that the financial resources of the Housing Executive might be more effectively used in the purchase of privately-owned homes whose occupants have been intimidated and pressurised by Republican neighbours on Housing Executive developments?
    Mr. Mills: No. I must make clear that under the Housing Executive Act (Northern Ireland) there have been no applications for loans. My hon. Friend may be a little confused, in that loans are made under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Acts. That is an entirely different matter.
    Rev. Ian Paisley: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Chairman of the Housing Executive has stated that negotiations are going on with the administration in the North of Ireland concerning the purchase of homes that people have had to vacate for use by people of another section of the community? Can the Minister tell us anything about those negotiations?
    Mr. Mills: No, I cannot say anything about those negotiations, but I can say that more than 300 applications have already been made under this scheme, and to date 75 loans have been made. The Housing Executive is doing a good job, and I feel sure that it must be encouraged in every way in these difficult circumstances.

    Employment
    Mr. McMasterasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a report about the progress in obtaining new employment in Northern Ireland; and whether he has any further proposals to make.
    Mr. David Howell: The Government have introduced a wide range of measures, notably those announced on 27th July 1972, which have all been aimed at maintaining as high a level of employment and economic activity as possible in Northern Ireland. These measures have undoubtedly contributed to the recent
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    relative improvement in the level of unemployment, which was 6,000 lower in January than a year earlier. The effect of the measures is being kept closely under review.
    Mr. McMaster: I welcome that reply, but is my hon. Friend aware of the damage that has been done to employment prospects in Northern Ireland by the terrorist campaign, particularly the prolonged IRA campaign of indiscriminate bombing—[HON. MEMBERS: "What about the strike yesterday?"]—which has both directly and indirectly damaged our employment prospects? Will my hon. Friend look again at the steps he took six months ago to see whether any further steps can be devised to attract new employment to Northern Ireland?
    Mr. Howell: As my hon. Friend says, threats to the employment situation in Northern Ireland come from a number of directions—certainly yesterday's events will not help. I am confident that by maintaining the existing measures—I am always ready to keep them under review—and by harnessing the tremendous energy and the readiness of the people of Northern Ireland to keep Ulster in business we shall continue to maintain a good record.
    Mr. Simon Mahon: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that some would not agree with the hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. McMaster)? The troubles of Northern Ireland did not start in 1969. The discriminatory practices in industry against Catholics getting jobs on the same basis as anybody else were part and parcel of the reasons for the trouble.
    Mr. Howell: The hon. Gentleman is addressing his remarks to my hon. Friend, but I note what he says. My own view is that we are moving away from the time when charges and countercharges will do much good for Northern Ireland.

    Unemployment Benefit (Payment by Post)
    Mr. Madelasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether arrangements are being made in Northern Ireland to introduce the payment of unemployment benefit by post.
    Mr. van Straubenzee: Yes, Sir. It is planned to make all payments by post from the week beginning 2nd April.
    Mr. Madel: I am grateful for the Minister's reply. Will he tell the House how this new practice compares with the situation in the rest of the United Kingdom?
    Mr. van Straubenzee: I understand, Sir, that in Great Britain there are only pilot schemes in some offices. If that is correct, as I believe it to be, Northern Ireland in this respect is ahead of other parts of the United Kingdom.

    Firearms
    Mr. Grimondasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will now make the possession of firearms in Northern Ireland illegal, except for few and specified purposes.
    Mr. Whitelaw: Illegally-held firearms are the main problem. Shotguns in rural areas and weapons for personal protection for members of the security forces and others in particular positions are necessary. Nevertheless, I am considering asking for new powers, for example, to require that hand guns licensed for personal protection should be brought in for ballistic and any other necessary tests.
    Mr. Grimond: I thank the Secretary of State for that response, as far as it goes. Many people feel, particularly in view of the atrocities committed during the last few days, that the least we can do is to withdraw practically all firearms in Northern Ireland. No one supposes that that would cure the trouble, but in view of the appalling stories we have read in the last few days, it is difficult to say that it is essential to have shotguns in rural areas.
    Mr. Whitelaw: There is no evidence that licensed weapons have been used in these acts of terrorism. I have had considerable experience of going round these areas and, in my judgment, I should not be acting responsibly if I suggested to the House that shotguns in rural areas and weapons for personal protection of members of the security forces and others in isolated areas should be withdrawn. I should regard that as an irresponsible and wrong action. At the same time, in current circumstances, if people are to hold licensed weapons it is reasonable—I am sure the vast majority of them, if not all, would agree—that it should be
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    made clear beyond any doubt that these weapons are not in any way being used for terrorist activities. The proposals I have made should give assistance to that course.
    Mr. Hugh Fraser: I am sure that the whole House will welcome what my right hon. Friend has said. It is clear that hand guns and rifles are essentially offensive and not defensive weapons. I do not know how good a shot is my right hon. Friend but from my military experience during the war, both as a terrorist and as an anti-terrorist——
    Mr. Speaker: Order. Even the right hon. Gentleman must ask a question at Question Time.
    Mr. Loughlin: I do not want to make a single remark that will make the right hon. Gentleman's task more difficult, but is he aware that an enormous number of guns held privately by people in Northern Ireland cannot be described as shotguns for rural areas? Will he look at the total number of licences that have been issued and consider whether he can withdraw as many as are not consistent with normal usage in a rural area?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I have been looking into these matters very carefully, to the extent that I think it is right to give the House some figures. There are 73,345 shotguns, 11,826 air weapons—for which I think I am right in saying permits are not required in this country—13,305 rifles of a 0·22 calibre, 60 other rifles, and 7,345 hand guns, of which 4,978 are for members of the security forces. Looking at those figures and recognising that shotguns have not been called in anywhere—nor, indeed, has anyone suggested that they should be called in anywhere—one sees, in addition, a considerable number issued to individuals for the usual sentimental reasons. Having looked at all those figures, I do not accept that there is an enormous problem of legally held weapons. It is only fair to put the numbers in perspective. Having done that, I have said what I am prepared to consider. I am prepared to consider other measures as well, but I am not prepared to put people in rural areas at personal risk.
    Captain Orr: Is my right hon. Friend aware that what he has just said in

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    his concluding sentence will be warmly welcomed? We are perfectly happy that he should take powers to have ballistics tests done, because we are confident that they will establish that legally held arms have never been responsible for any act of violence in the past. However, there is grave anxiety that this sustained pressure from all kinds of sources for him to act against legally held arms is designed to ensure the maximum uncertainty and anxiety for people who fear for their lives.
    Mr. Whitelaw: I understand that. I have mentioned the purposes for which I am considering some new powers. Many of the sources advocating this matter in various parts of the House would require me in any event to take new powers to meet them. I am prepared to consider the whole situation. However, I repeat quite firmly, because it is very important, that shotguns in rural areas used for the personal protection of people living in isolated areas and for members of the security forces are necessary in the current circumstances in Northern Ireland. I am confident that these weapons are not being used in the present terrorist campaign. If I find that they are being used, particularly in Belfast, which is a problem I am prepared to look at somewhat separately from the rest of the country—that is where the main problem lies—I am prepared to consider further action.
    Mr. Merlyn Rees: Is the Secretary of State aware that we welcome his announcement today, but as a first step, because there are too many guns in Northern Ireland as we saw yesterday? Is he aware that we seek not to take guns from those who need them. I should be the last to suggest doing so. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, I seek protection when I visit Northern Ireland. Therefore, I am aware that there are others who need protection on a much longer scale than I do. We on this side of the House are not concerned about that. We realise and accept the situation in that respect. However, will he check a matter that has been reported to me, that some leaders of the UDA carry weapons and licences in their pockets which they claim justify the carrying of those weapons?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making it perfectly clear that he and his right hon. and hon. Friends do not wish to see protection withdrawn from those who genuinely need it. That is widely accepted on both sides of the House.
    As for the rest of what the hon. Gentleman said, I am certainly prepared to look into these and other matters where it may be necessary for me to take further new powers to deal with them because I do not have those powers at the moment.

    Terrorism
    Mr. Kilfedderasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he is satisfied with the latest measures taken to combat terrorism.
    Mr. David Howell: So long as violence and terrorism continues, one cannot of course be satisfied. But my hon. Friend might like to know that in January, as a result of arrests made by the security forces, over 100 men have been charged with offences, including 16 charged with 10 murders, and three charged with attempted murders. So far this month, seven known Protestant extremists and 16 known IRA men have been arrested. Eighty-six firearms, 6,000 rounds of ammunition, and over one ton of explosives have been found by the security forces in both Protestant and Catholic areas since the beginning of the year. I think that is a very good record.
    Mr. Kilfedder: It goes without saying that we have only the greatest praise for the gallantry and courage of the security forces in Northern Ireland in difficult circumstances.
    First, is my hon. Friend considering increasing the number of troops in Northern Ireland? Secondly, will he consider the establishment of local platoons of the UDR to operate locally? Thirdly, will he go into the question of establishing a women's unit of the Ulster Defence Regiment?
    Mr. Howell: Force levels in Northern Ireland are kept under constant review in the light of the security situation at any one time. The two questions relating to the disposition of the UDR are matters for my hon. Friend the Minister of State for Defence.
    Rev. Ian Paisley: In view of the violence that occurred in Belfast and throughout Northern Ireland yesterday, may I ask the Minister to bear in mind the need for the tightening of security around police stations so that the people who are now attacking the Royal Ulster Constabulary cannot get within yards of the police stations to carry out their attacks? Will he again look into the question of curfews and searches? Will he assure the House that when shooting occurs in an area and the security forces believe that those carrying out the shooting are obtaining sanctuary in that area, it will be sealed off, no one will be allowed to move out or in, and a thorough search will be made so that, by a process of elimination, the people committing the murders may be found?
    Mr. Ernest G. Perry: In all areas?
    Rev. Ian Paisley: In all areas.
    Mr. Perry: The hon. Gentleman did not say that.
    Mr. Howell: The protection of police stations is a matter which is very much in our minds. Considerable provisions are made for the security of police stations. If there is room for improvement—we are always looking for it—we will carry it out.
    As for curfews and like matters, there are considerable difficulties, the most obvious of which would be the enormous tying up of the security forces and possibly great problems about enforcement. Various matters of this kind are under review from time to time.
    The ways in which the security forces operate have to be balanced against the conditions met on the ground. On the whole, the security forces carry out their searches and duties in the way that they believe will be most effective. I think that the figures that I have given the House show that they are effective.
    Mr. Heffer: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that most ordinary British people find it utterly impossible to understand the madness that is going on in Northern Ireland at present and that they are fast coming to the view that sooner or later the Government, on behalf of the overwhelming majority of people, will have to tell the people of Northern Ireland that if they continue in this way we shall
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    have to withdraw our troops and leave them to solve the problem themselves? It is not right that ordinary British men in the Forces are being shot down by mad dogs on both sides of this argument.
    Mr. Howell: I am sure that many people outside this House and in Northern Ireland will listen to the sentiments which the hon. Gentleman has expressed. While I do not agree with them, I understand why his feelings should be that way.
    Mr. McNamaraasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if and when he intends to introduce legislation to implement the recommendations of the Diplock Report.
    Mr. Whitelaw: I would refer the hon. Gentleman to my statement on 20th December, in which I said that the Government accepted in principle the recommendations of the Diplock Commission and would bring forward for consideration legislation to give effect to them.
    Mr. McNamara: Will the right hon. Gentleman state what discussions he has had with various professional bodies in Northern Ireland about the recommendations of the Diplock Report, many parts of which are subject to a great deal of criticism by members of the professions? Can he also give some indication to the House when he expects the legislation to come forward—if it is to come forward?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I have said that legislation will come forward as soon as possible. I have not had discussions with the professional bodies, but I should be only too pleased to receive any representations or deputations they may like to send me upon them.

    Ulster Defence Association
    Mr. Roseasked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will now take action to outlaw the Ulster Defence Association, following its sanction of sectarian murder in Northern Ireland.
    Mr. Whitelaw: I keep under constant review the advantages and disadvantages of proscribing particular organisations.
    Mr. Rose: As the UDA is virtually the mirror image of the IRA, and as

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    each organisation provides the pretext for the violent actions of the other, does the right hon. Gentleman realise that only an even-handed policy against both of them will have fruitful results?
    Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that so long as an organisation exists which claims 80,000 men ready to march and a large number of firearms, which challenges his authority, and which can sanction or stop sectarian murders, it will be impossible to prevent other sections of the community from falling into the equally abhorrent hands of the IRA? Does he realise that these organisations have to be dealt with at one and the same time?
    Mr. Whitelaw: Neither the hon. Gentleman nor the House would wish me to get involved in these arguments at this time, for obvious reasons. I think that I made it clear this week—although I think that I am entitled to make it clear again to the House and to everyone concerned—that the basic principle that must exist in that no man, in no position, no matter how loud he may shout, or anything else, can be above the law.
    Mr. McMaster: Is my right hon. Friend aware that there was no UDA in Northern Ireland before the political initiative in March of this year? Is he also aware that the IRA, both Official and Provisional, ever since the State came into existence, has on its own admission—it has stated this repeatedly—pursued a deliberate campaign designed to overthrow the State by undemocratic means, by violence, and that in the last three years this campaign of bombing and shooting has led to over 700 deaths and very much physical injury, mutilation and damage to property?
    Mr. Whitelaw: I do not wish to get involved in all these arguments about the past. I think that I have made my position on them abundantly clear on many occasions. My hon. Friend will recognise that the UVF, a very extreme Protestant organisation, has been a proscribed organisation for a very long time. That is interesting, for the House will know that particular person who proscribed that organisation.
    Mr. Duffy: As the sectarian death toll and violence has jumped up since last week, since the Deputy Commander of
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    the UDA announced that he could no longer restrain Protestant extremism, has the Secretary of State invited that gentleman, Mr. Thomas Herron, to explain what restraints he is no longer prepared to exercise in February that he and his colleagues in the UDA were prepared to uphold in January?
    Mr. Whitelaw: All these matters have to be carefully considered and all these wild statements considered in the context in which they are made. Unfortunately I have to listen to them, read them and judge their value, and, at the same time, keep my own calm counsels throughout.
    Mr. Maginnis: Does the Secretary of State agree that if there were no IRA there would be no UDA or kindred organisations in Northern Ireland?
    Mr. Whitelaw: It would be a matter of universal agreement by a vast number of people in Northern Ireland, and, indeed, throughout the country. If there were no IRA, UDA, UVF or any other such bodies, including all the various "Fs", it would be a very much better place.

  COUNTER-INFLATION POLICY
  Mr. Meacherasked the Prime Minister when next he, expects to meet the TUC/CBI to discuss phase 3.
  The Prime Minister (Mr. Edward Heath): No dates have been fixed but I have made clear that we are ready to continue discussions at any time.
  Mr. Meacher: As all the Prime Minister's plans depend on a 5 per cent. growth rate, will he explain that this will probably lead this year to a £1,000 million balance of payments deficit, and how he proposes to handle that with a repegged £, and proposes to get the necessary capital investment without inflating the money supply and stoking up inflation all over again? When will he admit that he has locked himself in the blackest of economic situations, which makes his promise of higher real wages soon virtually worthless?
  The Prime Minister: I do not accept the hon. Gentleman's allegations. The dubiety of his figures has already been made clear in public.
  Sir Gilbert Longden: Are we unlikely to achieve any of those desirable things that the hon. Gentleman was talking about if we have a series of strikes? Has my right hon. Friend any comment to make upon the justification of the employees of the gas industry to hold us up to ransom?
  The Prime Minister: I do not usually comment on the details of any particular strike or proposed strike. I should not have thought that there was any justification for those who are asking that they should have more in their pay packets to abstain from work and thus reduce their own pay packets, especially when Parliament has passed legislation under which the standstill is being operated and when Parliament is dealing with the legislation for stage 2.
  Mr. Grimond: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is growing concern that decisions about our economic future are being taken out of the hands of the House? Will he give a guarantee that in any conversations with the interested bodies the interests of the public will be fully protected? They are the people who either suffer or benefit from the policies which emerge.
  The Prime Minister: I cannot agree with the right hon. Gentleman that decisions on economic policy are being taken outside this House. Decisions on general economic strategy and tactics are always taken by the Government of the day. They are always open to debate in this House, and they are carried through with the support of this House. It has surely been customary for many years for Governments to discuss with representative bodies of all kinds in our society the particular issues with which they are concerned. This is not limited to the CBI and the TUC. Those concerned in local government know particularly how many consultations are carried out with representative bodies.
  Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: If we are to have a phase 3, can my right hon. Friend ensure that the first priority for the nationalised industries under phase 3 will be the earliest possible return to the observance of proper financial targets?
  The Prime Minister: Obviously when the nationalised industries are running at
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  a deficit, as they have been since they complied with the CBI's request for price limitation, that is not a change which can be brought about in one step. Therefore, the whole question of the financing of the nationalised industries must be looked at in a phased programme.
  Mr. Harold Wilson: On the question of decisions being taken outside this House—for example, the issues on which the right hon. Gentleman was so unclear on Tuesday, of the law-making bodies—is it not a fact that the former Leader of the Liberal Party, who is now shaking his head, is a member of the party that voted for the Second Reading of the legislation that provided for that? [Interruption.] I said that he was a member of the party which voted for it. That is up to him. Will the Prime Minister further clear up some confusion and business uncertainty about what he said in the House last week before he left for America? He said that the control of prices, the restriction of profits, would relate to increased turnover, that the more the turnover, the more the restriction, while the White Paper clearly relates price control to profit margins, not total profits. Does his statement in the House last week represent the Government's policy or does the White Paper state the Government's policy?
  The Prime Minister: On the first point, I must again remind the right hon. Gentleman that the agencies will be working under a Statute passed by the House and under the code which must be passed by the House. They are, therefore, regulatory bodies, not law-making bodies. The right hon. Gentleman only confuses the issue unnecessarily in trying to proclaim that they are law-making bodies, because they clearly are not.
  On the second point, there is no contradiction in these matters. The point I was making was that with increased turnover businesses should be able to pass on some of the increased profitability which comes from it, because of the reduction of overheads, in reduced prices as well as in meeting the target for increased wages. There is nothing incompatible with what is said in the White Paper, because the White Paper specifically said that allowance would be made for increased productivity leading to increased profitability.
  Mr. Wilson: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for what he has just said. Perhaps he missed some of the public comment on the matter because he was out of the country. Did not the White Paper specifically refer to retail margins and not to the turnover in paragraphs 11–15 and the appendix, in its references to prices and profits? Will the right hon. Gentleman look at the question again? I shall not press him further on it today.
  The Prime Minister: I read the comments in the Press although I was away at the time. There is no incompatibility, because the White Paper talks about the overall profits of companies. Therefore, we are bound to take account of the increased productivity, quite rightly, and the TUC pressed us upon the point. Part of the increased productivity should go to keeping prices down. That is the path companies ought to follow, and the White Paper says so.

  RATES
  Mr. Skinnerasked the Prime Minister what recent discussions he has had with leaders of municipal corporations regarding rates and if he will make a statement.
  Mr. Kaufmanasked the Prime Minister if he will make a statement on his meeting to discuss rates with representatives of Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, Liverpool and Sheffield City Councils.
  Mr. Duffyasked the Prime Minister when he will meet representatives of the Sheffield City Council to discuss their rating problems as they arise from overall national financial policy.
  The Prime Minister: I shall be meeting tomorrow representatives of Liverpool. Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, Sheffield and Bristol. I have also agreed to meet a deputation representing the Association of Municipal Corporations and other local authority associations on Tuesday 13th February.
  Mr. Skinner: One thing is certain, that times are changing. The Prime Minister used not to meet anybody. Will the right hon. Gentleman explain to the represen-
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  tatives when he meets them tomorrow and on Tuesday that the Government are mainly to blame for the increases in rates by instructing them to employ as many as 10,000 rent officers to implement the Housing Finance Act rent rebate scheme? Will he also tell them that VAT will result in higher rates, because of the tax on all the purchases that local authorities will have to make? If the right hon. Gentleman wants to do something practical, will he tell them that to restore the balance between industrial and domestic hereditaments a further massive increase on the domstic element should take place?
  The Prime Minister: No, Sir. I do not agree with any of those statements. If the hon. Gentleman is saying that the rent rebate scheme should be abolished he should say so publicly and let all those tenants who receive rebates see exactly where he stands.
  Mr. Madel: Do not the difficulties over rates underline the need for local authorities soon to be free to raise revenues by means other than rates?
  The Prime Minister: This matter has been debated for many decades by all those interested in local government finance, and by successive administrations. I regret to say that so far no Administration in conjunction with the local authorities has found a satisfactory way to raise additional revenue. It may well be that there is a suitable source. I know that many in London want to consider a lottery for London finance. But I think that in general administrations have come to the view that a local income tax or a local sales tax would only greatly increase the administrative burden without necessarily increasing the revenue.
  Mr. Kaufman: Is the Prime Minister aware that the city of Manchester's finances have been adversely affected by the city's fall in population—[Interruption.] Conservative Members do not care about the ratepayers and about the people of the city of Manchester having to suffer because of the present Government. Is the Prime Minister aware that ratepayers face heavy bills not only because of inflation but also because of the crazy rating revaluation, with its especially heavy impact on the poorer household?

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  When he meets Sir Robert Thomas tomorrow will he promise firm financial aid to keep the Manchester rate increase down to a ceiling of 5 per cent.?
  The Prime Minister: What I shall do tomorrow is to listen to the points the representatives of the six cities raise. I have said here in answer to a Question that one of the problems facing the great cities is that they found as a result of the Census that their population was smaller than they believed it to be. That has made an impact on their calculations.
  The hon. Gentleman must acknowledge that the grant has been increased to over £3,000 million, which is larger than it has ever been. It represents 60 per cent. of expenditure, which is a larger percentage than ever.
  As regards the domestic ratepayer, the direct subsidy is being increased by about 50 per cent. to 6p in the pound on the new values—equivalent to 15½p on present values, which shows the long way the Government have already gone to help the local authorities with these problems.
  Mr. Ridsdale: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in spite of the rate support grant the education charge is still falling on those who cannot afford to pay it? Would not a much more realistic way to deal with the rating problem be to take much of the national charge for education off the local authorities?
  The Prime Minister: A balance must always be struck. My hon Friend will be the first to recognise that that would put a heavy burden directly on the taxpayer instead of the ratepayer, and that it would not be possible to put it on indirect taxation because of its effect on prices. It would therefore mean a considerable impact on direct taxation, with the consequential disincentive to increased production. I am not sure whether that is what my hon. Friend wants.
  Mr. Duffy: Is the Prime Minister aware that any relief for domestic ratepayers spread across the board will leave unresolved the financial crisis in Sheffield, and that the needs of Sheffield and all the other cities whose representatives will he meeting the right hon. Gentleman tomorrow may very well compel those representatives to ask him to apply Tory
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  policy, for once, and give them selective help?
  The Prime Minister: I have already said that I shall listen to each of the individual points that the representatives of the cities have to raise. I can give no undertaking that further help can be given by the Government, but we can consider the points they raise.
  When talking about revaluation, the hon. Gentleman and some of his colleagues must recognise that one of the reasons for the particularly steep changes in some towns is that revaluation was postponed by the previous administration. Therefore, there has been an interval of 10 years, which means that the unfairnesses which have undoubtedly existed have been perpetuated for a decade. It is right that some of these matters should be corrected.
  We hear a great deal about places where we are told the domestic rate burden is increasing but nothing about the towns and cities where it is decreasing. For example, the effect of rating revaluation, before allowing for increased expenditure or increased grant, would be to cause decreases of 27 per cent. in Barrow-in-Furness, 7 per cent. in Bradford, 11½ per cent. in Grimsby, 7 per cent. in Leeds, 8 per cent. in Leicester, 7 per cent. in Plymouth and 16 per cent. in Sunderland.

  OFFICIAL SECRETS ACT (FRANKS REPORT)
  Mr. John Grantasked the Prime Minister if he will now make a statement concerning the Franks Committee recommendations for reform of the Official Secrets Act.
  The Prime Minister: I have nothing to add at present to the reply which I gave in answer to a Question from the hon. Member for Fife, West (Mr. William Hamilton) on 23rd January.—[Vol. 849, c. 216–17.]
  Mr. Grant: I thank the Prime Minister on this occasion for the accuracy of his replies. Will he brief the House a little more fully? Will he stop procrastinating about the Franks Report and use it as his first, however faltering, step towards the open government he promised? Is he aware that the Railway Gazette and the Financial Times have made a better

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  contribution to open government than he has?
  The Prime Minister: Most people who study the Franks Report recognise that it poses complex and difficult problems. This has meant discussions to reach an official decision about it and I hope soon to announce it. Open government does not consist of freedom for documents to be stolen by anybody who wishes to take them out of custody, nor does it involve the right of a civil servant to give away information which is not his to give.
  Mr. Hugh Fraser: Nevertheless, if it is impossible for the Government to make up their minds would it not be of general interest for the House to have a debate on the Franks Report? There is a problem of communication between Government and people and there is a right and a need for the people to know. This is an important issue which should be discussed by the House.
  The Prime Minister: I am prepared for the matter to be discussed by the House and I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House heard what was said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Stafford and Stone (Mr. Hugh Fraser). The Government are examining the report thoroughly and properly as the subject requires and in due course will make their conclusions known.

QUESTIONS TO MINISTERS
Mr. Arthur Lewis: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I should like to thank you for your kindness in sending me a letter on the matter which I raised yesterday, which will be within the knowledge of the House, and which I shall not repeat now.
The matter that I now wish to raise affects the general procedure on the tabling of Questions, and you may think that it is a proper matter to refer to the Committee on Procedure. If the Table Office accepts a Question under a mistake or misapprehension—and I make no adverse comment against the Table Office, to which I pay tribute—and then sends the hon. Member concerned a note saying that it has decided to withdraw the Question, should not the Order Paper on the following day contain some
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reference to the fact that the Question has been withdrawn?
The point I wish to make is that there should be some arrangement to show the factual position, namely, that the Question has been withdrawn and whether it has been withdrawn with or without the consent of the hon. Member. In other words, should this fact not be set out in some way on the Order Paper?
Mr. Speaker: I note what the hon. Gentleman says. I shall consider whether I should add to my letter to him and whether I should seek to refer the matter to the Committee on Procedure.

NORTHERN IRELAND
Mr. Merlyn Rees(by Private Notice) asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement on the strike in Northern Ireland yesterday and on the consequent security situation.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. William Whitelaw): A one-day strike was called in Northern Ireland yesterday by various Protestant organisations. This particularly affected Belfast, where most of industry closed down, bus services were stopped, and electricity supplies were severely cut. There was widespread intimidation.
In the course of the day there was a number of serious shooting incidents and riots. Some of these were inter-sectarian; in others the security forces came under fire from Catholic and Protestant gunmen. There were five deaths. Three were gunmen shot by the security forces, the fourth was a fireman on duty shot by a gunman, and the body was found of a civilian who had previously been abducted. Several civilians were injured and two soldiers were wounded, one of them very seriously.
In East Belfast some of the rioting was extremely violent. A mob of 1,200 wrecked a Catholic Church and the priest's house. They were dispersed with batons. Barricades were erected in a number of Protestant areas in Belfast by the UDA and Tartan gangs.
In Belfast and elsewhere, the security forces arrested and are charging 68 people —18 for riotous behaviour, 31 for disorderly conduct, 10 for burglary, five with

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possession of explosives and weapons, and four for taking and driving away cars. I should like to pay tribute to the brave and strenuous efforts made yesterday by all members of the security forces to control the violence.
By this morning, the situation had improved. Electricity supplies had been restored, and normal working had been resumed. All barricades have been removed.
The responsibility for yesterday's catalogue of violence rests squarely on those who called the strike and who should have appreciated the risks involved.
Mr. Rees: The right hon. Gentleman has given us details of yesterday's events. The Opposition wish to be associated with the tribute paid by the Secretary of State to the security forces, and I wish to mention with great regret the fireman who was killed. The firemen of Northern Ireland have shown unsung courage in the face of the campaign of bombing.
It appears that yesterday the security forces adopted a low profile posture. Could the right hon. Gentleman confirm that this was his policy? In view of the shooting that took place, may I ask whether the security forces were too little in evidence to deal with those who were prepared to use violence, as in the case of the church in East Belfast?
The Secretary of State mentioned intimidation, and this was a major factor in yesterday's events. I wish to inform him that I was telephoned this morning with a complaint that even when workers attended at power stations, because of intimidation to the management, some of the power generated was not fed into the grid.
In regard to the so-called strike, has the right hon. Gentleman noticed the firmness of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, which is organised from this country, and which has said:
"The NIC of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions has consistently opposed all forms of industrial action and strikes motivated for party political and sectarian ends."
A further complaint was made to me this morning from Belfast that words such as those I have quoted and the words of other moderates in Northern Ireland were not given very much publicity, but that the words of Mr. Herron were on each
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hourly broadcast of the BBC—and, in effect, it was put to me that the BBC organised the strike. This may have been inadvertent, but it must be stressed that moderation in Northern Ireland needs publicity.
Will the Secretary of State make it clear that full security measures will be taken on the day when the White Paper appears and that its timing will not be signalled well in advance, as is usual and proper in other instances? Will he also make clear that the Government are not prepared to see the White Paper sabotaged by Craig and his lieutenants? It should be made clear to them that brinkmanship will not suffice next time round. A political solution needs the moderates who are in the majority, but yesterday's events show that, unless there is full security protection, the moderates cannot speak freely.
Mr. Whitelaw: I am extremely grateful for what the hon. Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) said and for the way in which he said it. I join him in deeply regretting the death of the fireman and the many other casualties. The Fire Service in Northern Ireland has done an outstanding job throughout this period.
I say categorically that there was no low profile approach by the security forces but very much the reverse. If the security forces had not been fully deployed throughout the Province, and particularly in Belfast, then the situation might have been very much worse. What must be made clear is that it is impossible to ensure security at every place at all times in every situation. That is inevitably a fact of life. Nevertheless, there was no low profile approach on the part of the security forces.
I, too, have heard the rumour to which the hon. Gentleman referred about the power stations and the grid. I shall look into this point. It is of great importance.
The hon. Gentleman referred to the firmness of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. I, too, pay tribute to what it has said. It has made its position abundantly clear on many occasions, and I support it fully. It takes the view that strikes for purely political or sectarian ends can be no part of trade union policy. The Congress has said that firmly and it

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is to be admired for it. I hope that it will be given every support. I believe that it would have received more support but for the intimidation which was all too evident in too many quarters yesterday.
The hon. Gentleman then spoke about the need for publicity for the moderates. This is a dangerous area for me of all people to stray into though, like many others, I have done my best in recent days to appear as often as possible in order to utter calming statements, as I am sure the House would wish, and to make it clear that the strike was wholly unnecessary in that apparently it was called originally because two people were detained under the Detention of Terrorists Order. It should be made clear that they have the right to have their cases heard before the Commissioners, that they have the right to be represented by a lawyer and that they have a right of appeal. I am not entitled to prejudge the result of the case I decided to put before the Commissioners, and I do not see why anyone else should be. Everyone should await the result of the case, when it is put forward.
As for there being too much publicity for extremist points of view, I have no doubt that the point will be noted by those responsible. I think that it is very important that the moderate voice should be heard. It is unreasonable to single out some from the others; however, I mention only two examples. It may be that many hon. Members heard, as I did, responsible views from Mr. Faulkner. There was also one from Mr. Bleakley broadcast this morning. Both urged moderation and were entirely against the strike. Tribute should be paid to all those who have voiced similar views.
With regard to proposed security measures at the time of the White Paper, I note what the hon. Gentleman says and I appreciate the point.
I end by saying, as I have said before, that the Government and this House—because this House is involved as much as anyone else—must not be deterred by violence and threats from whatever quarter they may come.
Mr. McMaster: May I first express sympathy with the relatives of those killed and injured yesterday and say how much I deplore the use of violence? There
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can be no excuse for the rioting and other activities in Northern Ireland yesterday. What steps is my right hon. Friend taking to protect the vast majority of law-abiding people, both Roman Catholic and Protestant, who have suffered so much at the hands of terrorists and extremists in Northern Ireland? Is my right hon. Friend aware that when strikes such as yesterday's and other demonstrations are called, if they are not properly controlled by the security forces they can do nothing to improve community relations and only make it more difficult to achieve the reconciliation which is essential if we are to return to normal life in Northern Ireland?
Mr. Whitelaw: I fully appreciate what my hon. Friend says. I hope that neither he nor anyone else in Northern Ireland will place all the responsibility on the security forces. There is, after all, a very great responsibility on the citizens of Northern Ireland themselves. They have to play their part in this. The security forces will do their utmost to control all the demonstrations and marches which some people appear to find it necessary to conduct. One is entitled to ask whether they are all really necessary and whether their aims could not be achieved by less violent means than they seem to think necessary. If we in this House and the rest of the United Kingdom are to provide protection for citizens of the United Kingdom, which the people of Northern Ireland are, we are entitled to say, "While we will do everything in our power to help you with our security forces, if you are citizens of the United Kingdom you must do all you can in return to help the security forces and not make their task more difficult."
Mr. Douglas: Will the Secretary of State accept the view that if it is necessary he will seek to strengthen the security forces in Northern Ireland? Despite the political difficulties, does the right hon. Gentleman accept that we shall keep troops in Northern Ireland so long as it is part of the United Kingdom and so long as there is civil unrest there?
Mr. Whitelaw: On behalf of Her Majesty's Government I can give that undertaking absolutely. We believe that this House has a duty to the people of the United Kingdom as a whole. The

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people of Northern Ireland are part of the United Kingdom so long as the majority so desire. That brings with it responsibilities as well as rights, and it is very important to stress that. Force levels are constantly under consideration in the light of the security situation and will remain so.
Mr. Stratton Mills: In deploring these events and recalling that in November and December I warned the House of the damage which could be done by the activities of those with the Vanguard mentality, is not it tragically apparent at the moment that the activities of the Vanguard movement and those who have led and joined in these disturbances and in yesterday's strike have done more damage to Ulster in one day than the IRA has done in one month? In the event of a repetition of this kind of broad general strike, are there any methods that my right hon. Friend can take to prevent intimidation and assist in the maintenance of public services?
Mr. Whitelaw: Taking my hon. Friend's first point, I am bound to agree with him that the damage done to Northern Ireland and to all the efforts that Her Majesty's Government are making with the generous support of this House to help the employment position in Northern Ireland have been gravely frustrated by these events. No one should be in any doubt about that. Those who decided to go on with the strike should have appreciated the consequences of their own actions. I agree with my hon. Friend. I very much hope that those concerned will agree with him.
As for action on future occasions of this sort, which I pray will not occur, naturally I shall have a very careful study made of all the implications of yesterday's events to sec where plans can be made for the future. But I hope that they will not be necessary because I trust that, this having happened, a great many people will realise the desperate damage that they will do to their own country if they allow this kind of thing to happen again.
Mr. Molloy: Will the Secretary of State undertake to look again at the possibility of establishing a peace council in Northern Ireland drawn from all political parties and creeds? There seems to be evidence now that people of Northern
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Ireland, whether they be Catholic or Protestant and whatever their political views, want to identify themselves with a new loyalty to bring peace to Northern Ireland and do not want to be compelled to support extremists of any kind?
Mr. Whitelaw: There is no question of my reconsidering it; I am prepared to consider any proposals to help any movements of this kind. There are many people who are seeking to work in these ways. It is right that any move should come from them. They will get any encouragement that they need from me.
Rev. Ian Paisley: Does the Secretary of State agree that the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland deplore what took place yesterday in Northern Ireland? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the vast majority of workers were almost compelled to take part in the strike because power and electricity supplies were cut off and, consequently, when many turned up for work they were told by their managements that their places of employment had come to a standstill in any event? Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is right that the Republican Clubs of Northern Ireland and the Roman Catholic Ex-Servicemen's Association appealed to their supporters to join the strike? Is not it right to say that the trouble was sparked off by the detention of two members of the UDA? Is not it strange that the people who called so vigorously for internment when it was applied solely to one section of the community have risen up in wrath when it has been applied to another section of the community?
Would the right hon. Gentleman not agree that it is better that they be detained rather than interned because under a detention order they have an opportunity of legal representation whereas those who were interned had no opportunity of hearing what was alleged against them or of making out a case? Will he assure the House that so far as he is concerned all men in Northern Ireland will be equal under the law and will be equally subject to the law?
Mr. Whitelaw: I am grateful for what the hon. Member said. As for the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland deploring the strike, I believe that he is

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in a better position than I fully to judge the feelings of many people. I entirely agree from my information that it is the case. There is absolutely no doubt that there was widepsread intimidation. There were those who would have worked if power and other supplies had been available. I do not know about the Republican clubs. I heard a statement from the Catholic Ex-Servicemen's Association—somewhat ambivalent—apparently supporting the strike.
Having exercised my judgment and decided that there was a case for these two men to answer before the Commissioners, I am clearly prohibited from commenting one way or the other on the reasons for the strike and what these people may or may not have been. To me they were two men, I studied their cases, and my best judgment was that it was right for the cases to be put before the Commissioners. The Commissioners may decide after a legal hearing that I was right or that I was wrong. I am prepared to put my judgment to that test and to accept the verdict, as is perfectly proper. Everyone else should be prepared to take the same course. I must make it clear that everyone in Northern Ireland must be equal under the law and that no one must be above the law nor must they imagine that they above the law.
Mr. Orme: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that yesterday's strike has no relation to British trade unionism as we understand it and that it is to be deplored? Is he aware that the trade union movement thoroughly deplores any actions taken in a sectarian manner by some people in Northern Ireland? Turning to the Vanguard movement and the para-military forces in Northern Ireland, may I ask whether he is aware that the feeling is growing that there will have to be tackled sooner rather than later and that these para-military forces will have to be put aside? Just as the IRA has been faced up to, so must these forces be faced and their guns removed and the security forces must be enabled to maintain full control of all areas.
Mr. Whitelaw: I am grateful for what the hon. Gentleman said, with his considerable experience of British trade unionism. It is vitally important that we make clear to everyone in Northern Ireland that it will be properly governed
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under the law and that the security forces will be in control throughout.
Captain Orr: Is my right hon. Friend aware that all rational and reasonable people in Ulster, who are in the majority, will endorse what my hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, North (Rev. Ian Paisley) said about deploring violence, intimidation, murder and destruction? Is he further aware that the only way in which these people can express themselves and can express support for the security forces and the concept of equality before the law is through a return to some democratic process as soon as possible? Does he realise that what is wanted after the referendum is publication of the White Paper and then some forum in which the majority of the people, who are the reasonable people, can express themselves to him about the future constitution of the country?
Mr. Whitelaw: I note what my hon. and gallant Friend says. It would be right for me simply to note it and to say that Her Majesty's Government are fully aware of the vital importance, besides security action, of a political base for the future. I am bound to say that no White Paper of itself can be a magic wand that will suddenly cure the situation overnight. We in this House have to make sure that we provide the right basis for a new start, a new move forward in Northern Ireland. That is what we must concentrate upon in working out the White Paper.
Mr. Harold Wilson: Quite apart from the deep issues raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, South (Mr. Merlyn Rees) and other hon. Members from all parts of the House, and the consciousness of the House as a whole that we may be moving towards very big and possibly grave events, may I ask a different question? Will the right hon. Gentleman use his influence in trying to end what is a continuing practice which many people in this country, on both sides of the water, find increasingly nauseating, namely, the widespread use of the word "Loyalist" to describe people who do not scruple to fire on British troops and to defy every principle of law and order which all decent people on this side of the water and in Northern Ireland hold dear?
Mr. Whitelaw: Everyone who styles himself in any way has a duty to live up to that style. The right hon. Gentleman's words will no doubt be noted by those concerned.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
Mr. Harold Wilson: May I ask the Leader of the House to state the business for next week?
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. James Prior): Yes, Sir. The Business for next week will be as follows:
MONDAY 12TH FEBRUARY—Consideration of Private Members' Motions until seven o'clock.
Afterwards, Second Reading of the Education Bill [Lords].
Motion on the Medicines (Extension of Antimicrobal Substances) Order.
TUESDAY 13TH FEBRUARY—Second Reading of the Supply of Goods (Implied Terms) Bill [Lords].
Motions relating to the Criminal Appeal Rules and References to the Crown Court and the European Court.
WEDNESDAY 14TH FEBRUARY—Supply (8th allotted day). There will be a debate, until about seven o'clock, on an Opposition Motion on VAT and children's clothing.
Afterwards, resumption of the Second Reading of the Anti-Discrimination (No. 2) Bill.
THURSDAY 15TH FEBRUARY—Remaining stages of the Furnished Lettings (Rent Allowances) Bill and of the Concorde Aircraft Bill.
FRIDAY 16TH FEBRUARY—Private Members' Bills.
MONDAY 19TH FEBRUARY—Supply (9th allotted day). Debate on a topic to be announced.
Mr. Wilson: Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the White Paper on steel is being published this afternoon? Will he further undertake to have discussions through the usual channels about the debate in Government time which has been promised so that an
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opportunity can be arranged which is reasonably urgent but which will give enough time for people in the steel areas to study the implications of the White Paper?
Can we take it that he accepts the view that the immigration orders which the House will shortly be called upon to debate should be taken together because of the reaction of one area of immigration on others in trying to reach reasonably fair and workable arrangements?
My next point arises out of the Prime Minister's answers on Tuesday. I did not raise a point of order on this and I recognise what a difficult problem it is. The Prime Minister was faced, as everyone before him has been faced, with the problem of returning from abroad and deciding whether to answer Questions within the allotted 15 minutes or to ask leave to do it in another way. Clearly there was an important debate on housing to follow on that day and the Prime Minister did not like to encroach upon the time for it. On the other hand, many Questions were shut out. Will the Leader of the House have a word with his right hon. Friend to confirm that he was not trying to lay down a pattern for the future but was taking a difficult decision in the light of the fact that the housing debate was to follow?
Mr. Prior: My right hon. Friend will have noted the point that has been raised.
The steel White Paper is being published this afternoon and I hope that we shall be able to fit in a debate before the Budget, if that is convenient to the right hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members. I am prepared to consider what the right hon. Gentleman said about the b immigration rules. Perhaps we can discuss that in the space of the next few days.
Dame Irene Ward: In view of the fact—and I am very glad of it—that the Prime Minister is going to see representatives of the Association of Municipal Corporations, of which I am proud to be a vice-president, and other organisations representing local authorities, may I ask my right hon. Friend how, when those discussions, which are of great importance to people all over the country, have taken place, the Prime Minister will let us know the results. which I hope he will do in some detail? May I also ask whether it will then be possible—because I think

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many people would like to contribute—to have a debate on the subject, since this is of vital importance to all sections of the community in the country?
Mr. Prior: My hon. Friend will have noticed that there is a debate on this important subject in Private Members' time on Monday. I have noted what she said about any announcement or statement following my right hon. Friend's discussions with the AMC and the leaders of the great cities, and of course we shall consider that.
Mr. Charles R. Morris: Has the attention of the Leader of the House been drawn to the number and similarity of Press reports in this morning's newspapers to the effect that the BBC's charter is to be extended by five years and that the fourth television channel is to be allocated to commercial interests? Is it the intention of the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications to make a statement or indeed to initiate a debate on this subject next week?
Mr. Prior: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that this is pure speculation. No decisions have as yet been taken on this important issue. Of course it will be necessary before long to bring to the House the Government's reply to the Select Committee on the IBA.
Dame Joan Vickers: In view of the very important recommendations in the Report of the Departmental Committee on the Adoption of Children—the Houghton Report—may I ask my right hon. Friend whether we are to have a debate on this in the near future?
Mr. Prior: I know that this is a very important report. It is still being considered by the Government. We have not had it very long, but I will draw my right hon. Friend's attention to it and ask him whether he can say anything further.
Dr. Dickson Mabon: Is the Leader of the House aware that, while we are grateful to him for the conversations he has had with Scottish Labour Members about setting up a Select Committee on Scottish affairs, we should be grateful if he would try to make a statement this afternoon? Is he aware that we do not accept the offer of a joint committee with the House of Lords as it is constitutionally somewhat unusual in that it does involve a
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matter which is outwith procedure? We should like him to think again about setting up a Select Committee on Scottish affairs of the House of Commons to deal with energy policy in Scotland.
Mr. Prior: As the hon. Gentleman knows, I have had discussions and listened to the views put to me in all parts of the House. I have taken into account the pressure of work this Session on Scottish Members and I propose not to recommend the establishment of a Select Committee in this session. I hope, however, to set one up next Session.
Mr. Moate: My hon. Friend last week gave a helpful reply on draft EEC regulations. As these matters are of some importance and urgency and cannot await the eventual outcome of the ad hoc Committee or the wishes of the Opposition, can he say whether he intends to make time available fairly soon for debate on these urgent and important regulations?
Mr. Prior: As I have said previously, I hope we shall have early advice from the ad hoc Committee. In the meantime, I would welcome discussions on the best means of identifying the drafts which are considered the most important. If through the usual channels, or direct, my hon. Friend or others would like to put views to me, I would consult both the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and the people responsible for the business of the House to see whether we might be able to arrange a short, limited debate on perhaps Wednesday or Thursday of the coming week.
Mr. Elystan Morgan: The Leader of the House will be well aware that there has been no debate on agriculture since June 1971. Does he appreciate that there is complete uncertainty about the future of grants and subsidies for the market, as also about the functions of the agricultural marketing boards? Will he remedy the situation as soon as possible by allowing these crucial questions to be debated in this House?
Mr. Prior: Without entering into some of the more controversial remarks of the hon. Gentleman, it is not unusual for debates on agriculture to take place on Supply Days. I am quite certain that the Government would be only too ready to debate at any time the present state of the agricultural industry.
Rev. Ian Paisley: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are many public bodies in Northern Ireland which were ordered by law by the Stormont to leave their annual reports on the Table for debate, and is he aware that since direct rule none of those reports has been receiving consideration at all and that those public bodies can spend whatever money they like without any scrutiny? Would he keep in mind when arranging Northern Ireland business the need for an opportunity for some of those very important Northern Ireland reports to be considered?
Mr. Prior: I will certainly take note of what my hon. Friend said. We have had a number of short debates on Northern Ireland matters this week. I think we are having a rest from them next week, but we shall have to consider what we can do in the future.
Mr. Russell Kerr: Further to the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Openshaw (Mr. Charles R. Morris), can we know from the Leader of the House when we may expect time for a debate on the report of the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries covering the Independent Broadcasting Authority? Secondly, can the right hon. Gentleman tell us when his right hon. Friend the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications will let the Committee have a reply to the report it made on that industry for which he is responsible?
Mr. Prior: In answer to the last part of the hon. Gentleman's question, I hope the reply will not be long delayed now. On the first part of his question, I cannot promise him an early debate on the Select Committee's report, but of course one of the important debates would be on the IBA report.
Mr. Fell: May I ask my right hon. Friend a question about Friday debates? We have now had two occasions within the memory of my right hon. Friend, although he was not in his present position when the first arose on the Family Planning Bill, on which the usual channels, with the help of your good offices, Mr. Speaker, have managed to find methods of circumventing what has been the normal procedure of Private Members' Bills on Friday. May I ask whether the usual channels in this case concerning the Bill of the hon. Member for Fife,
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West (Mr. William Hamilton) last Friday had recourse in fact to the usual methods? In other words, could he tell us the precedents for the action that has now been agreed between the usual channels? I realise, of course, what the right hon. Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish) has just whispered at me, that it is their time, but my question is understandable, I should have thought, in that I am asking for the precedents for this sort of procedure.
Mr. Prior: These are always extremely difficult matters for the Leader of the House. I appreciate the point which my hon. Friend has made. As with my predecessors on both sides of the House, I think it would only be very exceptionally that it would be found right to take Private Members' Bills outside Private Members' time. I made it quite clear on Friday that I could see no chance of the Government's being able to provide time for a Private Member's Bill of this nature. But I have tried to meet what I thought and hoped were the wishes of the House as a whole in what I regard as an entirely exceptional "one-off" case.
Mr. Speaker: Order. I did not recognise the description of my part in this as "good offices" at all.
Mr. David Steel: A few minutes ago the Leader of the House said that he had had discussions in all parts about a Scottish Select Committee. He threw out an interesting suggestion about the possibility of a joint Committee of both Houses. Will he elaborate on that?
Mr. Prior: I am sorry. When I said "in all parts", I meant that I had had discussions with a number of individual hon. Members. But I have not had official discussions with, as it were, political parties as such.
Mr. Fell: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You very kindly said just now, Mr. Speaker, that you did not recognise your part in these matters as your good offices. May I correct the record and say that I was not referring to what happened last Friday when I talked about Mr. Speaker's good offices. I was referring to the former occasion on which I think it is true, Mr. Speaker, that you used your good offices to some effect.
Mr. Speaker: I am delighted to hear of it. I was not aware of it.
Mr. Scott-Hopkins: In view of what my right hon. Friend said in reply to the question about EEC regulations and a debate in the House next week, will he bear in mind that a plenary session is to take place next week and that it would be unfortunate if those who are taking part in it that were unable to take part in a debate in the House? In view of that fact, and in view of the extraordinary unrest in the international monetary market at present, and the need for monetary co-operation in Europe for the benefit of all Western European countries, as well as the United States of America, will my right hon. Friend consider whether these matters might be debated in the near future before the Budget?
Mr. Prior: I have noted what my hon. Friend said about my suggestions for a debate on the draft regulations. As to his latter point, I doubt whether there will be an opportunity in the next two or three weeks for such a debate, but I shall bear in mind what he said.
Mr. C. Pannell: Reverting to the matter of the Anti-Discrimination (No. 2) Bill, will the Leader of the House accept that the action he has taken in cooperation with the Opposition Chief Whip is action that lends itself not only to the good sense of the House but also to the overwhelming sense of fairness in the country? We have now reached a stage when, by a strategem, a Bill has been defeated twice, and the right hon. Gentleman is fulfilling the best duties of the House to rescue the House from an absurdity.
Mr. Prior: I appreciate what the right hon. Gentleman said, but I must say that it was not a strategem that prevented the Bill from having a Second Reading. These are extremely difficult matters, and I think that the more I say the more trouble I am likely to get into.
Mr. John Silkin: Can the Leader of the House give an assurance that the White Paper on private practice and the National Health Service will be published before Second Reading of the National Health Service (Reorganisation) Bill?
Mr. Prior: I should like to consider that. I wrote to one of the right hon. Gentleman's hon. Friends last week about it and said that I hoped that it would be published. I am not sure whether I used the words "as soon as possible" or "in the near future". I should like to check on that and let the right hon. Gentleman know.
Mr. John E. B. Hill: Will my right hon. Friend clarify his answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Yarmouth (Mr. Fell)? Did he say that the use of a Supply Day to advance Private Members' legislation, however urgently canvassed, is an entirely new departure or that there are precedents?
Mr. Prior: As far as I know, there are no precedents for using a Supply Day in that way. But the whole way in which we now use Supply Days has been changed in the last two or three years, so in any case the precedents would not go back very far. However, on that subject, the Government of the day have complete control over the Order Paper, and the type of procedure which we are adopting next week can come about only with the co-operation of the Government as well.
Mr. Ross: It is most unwelcome that there is to be no Scottish Select Committee. The Leader of the House said that he had done this because of the workload on Scottish Members. Is he aware that the workload is no greater than it was last year, and no greater than it will be next year? Is not the truth of the matter that he just cannot find Scottish Tory Members willing to serve?
Mr. Prior: Many other Select Committees are being set up. I think that it is only fair that as those Select Committees are, as it were, Committees for the whole House, Scottish Members should also have a chance of serving on them.
Mr. Cormack: May we have the promised debate on the parliamentary building before Easter, at any rate? May we also have a statement next week on the scupperies in the car park?
Mr. Prior: On the first part of my hon. Friend's question, I cannot promise a debate at a particular time, but obviously the matter of accommodation

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is becoming urgent. On the latter part of the question, I gather that the discovery of the conduit in New Palace Yard is of great interest and that it is hoped in some way that it may be taken down and, perhaps re-erected in another place.
Mr. Duffy: Has the Leader of the House seen Early Day Motion No. 159 in my name and in the names of my hon. Friends, referring to the tendency towards censorship by the Independent Broadcasting Authority? Is he aware that this relates to a television documentary on the life of Michael Collins and that the documentary will not be shown in Northern Ireland? Finally, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that although the documentary presents Mr. Lloyd-George as capable of duplicity and Sir Winston Churchill as an imperialist bully, it is the work of a Welshman? Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that it ought to be made available for the House in order that hon. Members may arrive at a more balanced judgment of the extent of Britain's responsibility for the present state of affairs in Northern Ireland?
[That this House regrets the decision of the Independent Broadcasting Authority to ban the showing of the television documentary 'Hang Out Your Brightest Colours' and notes that in any event the film would not have been shown in Northern Ireland; and further regrets this additional evidence of growing censorship and requests that the film be made available for screening to Members of Parliament in the Palace of Westminster.]
Mr. Prior: The responsibility for programme content was again made clear at Question Time yesterday. However, I am sure that the terms of the motion will be noted by those concerned.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

  MAPLIN DEVELOPMENT BILL
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Mr. Speaker: I should indicate to the House that the amendment in the name of the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition and in the names of his right hon. and hon. Friends has been selected:
  That this House, while recognising the urgent need to alleviate the suffering from noise of those who live near Heathrow and the other existing South East airports, declines to give a Second Reading to the Maplin Development Bill until the case for a new airport and seaport complex at Maplin has been fully reappraised by the Civil Aviation Authority in the light of the many changed circumstances since the original decision was taken and of the development needs of other regions of the country.
  4.17 p.m.
  The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Geoffrey Rippon): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
  The Bill is an essential step towards the Government's aim of having the Maplin Airport operational by about 1980. It is necessary to maintain Britain's position as one of the world's great centres of international aviation. It is above all necessary to make sure that the huge expected increase in air passenger and aircraft movements over the next generation is handled in a way that serves the air passenger properly and ensures that people who live in and around our present airports get relief from noise.
  The whole Maplin project—reclamation, building the airport and seaport, some private development and the related access routes and new town—is an immensely challenging one. It is a challenge which I personally welcome.
  I shall hope today to convince the House of the need for the project and of the Government's determination to see that it is carried out in such a way that all this development, which is so essential to the economic life and growth of this country, is acceptable environmentally.
  There has been a great deal said and written in recent weeks about the need for a new airport and, in particular, about

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  the need for such an airport in the South East. We must face this question. At the same time, we must remember that these matters were debated in the context of the immense Roskill Report, both in this House and in another place, before the Government took their decision to go to Maplin. That decision was announced by the then Secretary of State for Trade and Industry on 26th April 1971.
  Since then there has been a whole series of Ministerial statements in the House and wide consultations with the various authorities concerned. The Bill now before the House provides the machinery for implementing the decision in the light of all those consultations and considerations.
  Having considered with great care the Roskill Report, the views expressed in both Houses of Parliament and the many representations which have been made by a wide range of interests, the Government have taken certain basic decisions about the need, timing and location of the airport. First, we have accepted the unanimous recommendation of the Roskill Commission that a third London Airport will be needed and that the first runway should be operational by about 1980. Secondly, we have accepted that additional airport capacity is required in the South-East not only to meet the inevitable increase in air traffic now foreseen but also to bring relief at the earliest possible moment to the noise and environmental problems created by the exising airports in the region.
  Thirdly, we have announced that going to Maplin would mean there would be no need to provide additional runways at other airports in the London area—Heathrow, Gatwick, Luton and Stansted. Moreover, we have made clear that it would be possible to impose stricter limits on air traffic movements at Heathrow and Gatwick and also possible to reduce the impact of noise. Stansted might be closed and Luton would not have to be extended. Fourthly, we have accepted that an airport outside the region would not meet the need.
  Finally, we have taken the view that it would involve unacceptable risks to defer the provision of a third airport on the basis of speculative technological development such as STOL or to plan on the assumption that future needs could be met on a site incapable of expansion
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  over time to a full four-runway capacity. The House will need, of course, to consider today what, if anything, has happened since the middle of 1971 to change the basis on which these decisions have been taken. Since I became Secretary of State for the Environment I have re-read the Roskill Report, the various debates and statements and a mass of other documents. I am quite convinced that the case for Maplin remains overwhelming.
  First, there is the undisputed fact of the growth of demand. Traffic growth was the starting point for the Roskill Commission's recommendation. It has been stated that the commission simply looked at sites, assuming a demand. That simply is not true. It was on the evidence put to the commission concerning traffic growth that the Roskill Commission concluded that a new airport would be needed by about 1980. We have looked at the question of need and timing again in the light of the trends since Roskill reported. Our views are still broadly in line with those of the Commission.
  On the latest forecasts it is estimated that there will be a passenger demand of about 60 million people annually by 1980. That is more than double the present London area traffic. These figures relate to the number of passengers. Because the number of passengers per flight is growing, the increase in the number of air transport movements is fewer, but it is still estimated to go up to about 500,000 annually by 1980—a growth of about one-third over the present figures. We have to accept, therefore, the need for increased airport capacity.
  We have estimated that the aircraft will carry over one and a half times as many passengers in 1980 as at present—120 as against 70—and about twice as many in 1985–155—and three times as many in 1990—in other words, 200. We have estimated that there will be aircraft which will carry 1,000 passengers. Whatever aircraft are introduced, the old aircraft will continue to fly and there will be the need for higher frequency of operations.
  This brings me to the first misconception on which a great deal of the recent argument about the need has been based, the impact of using the new wide-bodied

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  aircraft. Let me make quite clear that the figures and forecasts I have given take account of the trend towards larger aircraft. This is clear in the contrast between the growth rate of passengers and of aircraft movements which I have just quoted. They also assume a spreading of the load more evenly over the day and over the year. The more detailed figures were set out in the consultative document issued last year.
  Mr. David Crouch: Could my right hon. and learned Friend say whether the prospect of the Channel Tunnel being constructed has been taken into account in these assumptions?
  Mr. Rippon: I can certainly give that assurance. We have allowed for all the factors that have been mentioned in recent debates, including the fact that the Channel Tunnel could be expected to divert from air transport a number of passengers. This factors was, of course, allowed for also in the Roskill calculations, and the commission found that the effect of constructing a Channel Tunnel would be to put back the date at which the third airport would be needed by one year at the most. That is set out in the conclusions in Appendix 6—paragraphs 23–24 on pages 193–94. The Commission also took account of the advanced passenger train.
  My second point is that the growth in capacity which is needed must be provided in the South-East. On the basis of the most recent survey, 80 per cent. of passengers using London airports either originate from or are travelling to places in South-East England. Both the Roskill traffic forecasts and our own assume that with the greater development of regional airports some of the traffic now originating from other regions will be diverted from the London airports. But there is a limit to how far we can go in this direction. Even if we allow for 25 per cent. or the traffic to be diverted elsewhere, there is still an overwhelming need for Maplin.
  Mr. Patrick Cormack: If it is reasonable to assume that an aircraft will be carrying 1,000 passengers by the turn of the century, why is it unreasonable to assume that STOL aircraft will have been developed?
  Mr. Rippon: I shall come to that, but that also was considered by the Roskill Commission. My hon. Friend may have seen the letter which Sir Peter Masefield wrote to The Times in which he said that the prospects for STOL were less now than at the time of Roskill.
  To continue on capacity, so far as one can judge, about 80 per cent. of the traffic using London airports originates from the South-East.
  Mr. Robert Adley: Will my right hon. and learned Friend confirm or deny that when the Roskill inquiries took place the question was asked, "Where will you spend tonight?" and very often the answer was "London" because people had had to travel to and from London merely to board an aeroplane?
  Mr. Rippon: I think my lion. Friend will find that he has misinterpreted Table 9 on page 193 in Appendix 6. He should also look at Table 9 in paragraph 20. That is the same one [Laughter.] My hon. Friend will be doubly assured by reading it twice.
  The Roskill Commission found that those who most strongly favoured a policy of increasing traffic at provincial airports before a new London airport was opened did not claim that the effect would delay the need by more than one or two years to the mid-1980s. Even that somewhat modest effect rested on somewhat bold assumptions about airports in South Hampshire, Elmdon, Castle Donington, Rhoose and Bristol. The commission had some reservations about how much more noise would be welcomed, but it did not challenge the premise that airports outside the South-East might develop in future. It nevertheless unanimously concluded:
  "it is clear to us that the nation requires a third London airport."
  In the debate on 4th March 1971 the right hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) accepted that the growth of regional airports, though desirable in itself, could not meet the demand. He said:
  "but we cannot expect a degree of diversion to non-South-East airports which would obviate the need for new capacity in the South-East by the middle 1980s."
  The question then arises, if not Maplin where? As the right hon. Member for

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  Grimsby said, if we had no third London airport at all
  "We should have to assume a more intensive use of all the existing South-East airports."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th March 1971; Vol. 812, c. 1923–27.]
  This, as he saw, would involve Heathrow expanding its growth up to capacity, as probable second runway at Gatwick, and expansion at Luton and Stanstead. That is what a lot of people like Sir Peter Masefield and some of the airlines would no doubt prefer. But not, of course, the people who would be subjected to the noise.
  Mr. Anthony Crosland: The right hon. and learned Gentleman is correct in saying that I argued that that was a possible solution. I went on, however, to reject it, as hon. Members will recall.
  Mr. Rippon: The right hon. Gentleman made the point that there was a need in the South-East and he went on to say at col. 1923 what that might involve in terms of existing airports. He spoke about other alternatives, and I shall return to those later.
  It is the Government's view, and also that of the right hon. Member for Grimsby, that no solution can be regarded as tolerable which leads to increased noise nuisance at Heathrow, Gatwick, Luton and Stanstead. Indeed, they need relief from noise, and as soon as possible. But if we delay going to Maplin by 1980, it will be totally unrealistic to hold out any hope of relief. Quite the contrary. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will agree, as he did then, that noise is becoming the critical pollution issue.
  We cannot rely on the development of STOL and VTOL or other technological developments such as "hush kits" to make the problem disappear somehow. As the right hon. Gentleman said on 4th March, to rely on the development of STOL to solve our problems would be "imprudent planning", and I cannot better that description. I know that some people think that the current trend towards quieter aircraft—which we all welcome—and the fitting of hush kits to existing aircraft will mean that the problem, if it does not disappear, will become of no concern. But these aircraft, although quieter, will not be Quiet in the ordinary sense of the word. I saw in a recent report about the possibility of fitting hush
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  kits to the Rolls-Royce Spey engine that it is claimed that this would cut the 90 PNDb footprint to 8·8 sq. miles, comparable to the TriStar. Ninety PNDb cannot be described as quiet, least of all by the 200,000 people who live in the 8·8 square mile areas at the ends of Heathrow's main runways.
  The real facts of aircraft noise are illustrated by the calculations made of the effects of the siting of the runways at Maplin which we published last April. This showed that the 35 NNI—the noise nuisance index—noise shadow for a two-runway airport in 1990 would stretch some 24 miles from tip to tip. Of course, at Maplin virtually the whole of that noise shadow is over the sea, a point to which I will return in a moment. The 24-mile noise shadow is based on the best evidence at present available about the development of quieter aircraft. It is very much less than Roskill's original view, which estimated a 33-mile shadow. When we published these figures at the time of the consultation document we were wrongly accused of being overoptimistic. But we have certainly not disregarded in any way the factor of quieter aircraft. No doubt hon. Members who argue for alternative sites will bear the noise factor strongly in mind.
  The right hon. Member for Grimsby's idea was for a new one or two runway airport which need not be at any of the Roskill sites. According to what he said in the last debate:
  "If the worst comes to the worst … we should have two airports of two runways each."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th March 1971; Vol. 812, c. 1923.]
  His attitude was that if we made a mistake it did not matter too much. He spoke as if a two-runway airport was a fairly small project which could be fitted in without too much difficulty at some site in the South-East which had not been considered by the Roskill Commission. Does he seriously believe that we could simply put down a Heathrow in South Hampshire, the Essex gap or Lyddthose were his suggestions in the last debate—without causing severe environmental disturbance? It is known that if we do not go to Maplin we have to go somewhere else. In that case it is up to the right hon. Gentleman, knowing all the possibilities, to say whether he thinks any of the sites in the South-East

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  could be expanded in such a way as to contain the growth of traffic to which I have referred, but without creating an intolerable disturbance. If he repeats his suggestions today he will receive a great deal of correspondence tomorrow. In view of the noise factor and the need, I submit that the case for Maplin is overwhelming.
  As I see it three grounds of objection to Maplin have been put forward in the last few days. The first is the siting. Here, in the light of all the considerations, it must be understood, as the Roskill Commission stressed—and it did not disagree with Professor Buchanan here—on environmental and planning grounds the Foulness site is the best, and the Government continue to take the view that these considerations are of paramount importance.
  There is then the question of birdstrike. My hon. Friend the Minister for Aerospace and Shipping will deal with it in more detail, if necessary, in winding up the debate. I say only that birdstrike is a problem at all airports and has been the subject of consideration for many years. On that point the Roskill Commission concluded:
  "However much the birdstrike problem at Foulness has been pressed upon us, no one has claimed that it is so serious as to be decisive against Foulness."
  BEA admitted, for example, that if Foulness was only 10 miles from Central London it would not refuse to use the airport there because of the birdstrike problem.
  Again, various technological arguments have been advanced and my hon. Friend will deal with them. But it cannot be said that coastal airports of which there are a great many in the world, are more hazardous from the point of view of birdstrike than any other. The point has also been made that the new aircraft with their different engines are more vulnerable to birdstrike. I am told by the Civil Aviation Authority that they are more susceptible to birdstrike but not as vulnerable. That, I think, indicates that this is not in any sense an overwhelming objection.
  Mr. R. J. Maxwell-Hyslop: Before my right hon. and learned Friend leaves that point, does he not accept the
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  Roskill Commission's findings on page 89, paragraph 8.32:
  "The risk of birdstrike incidents would still be three times greater at Foulness than at the inland sites even with an elaborate bird management and control programme."
  Does my right hon. and learned Friend accept or reject that?
  Mr. Rippon: I have written to my hon. Friend about these matters. I may not have made myself as clear as I would have wished on this. I have consulted the various bodies concerned and it is the CAA's view that although engines like the RB211 may be more likely to incur the problems of birdstrike they will be considerably less vulnerable to them. We have made some studies in the light of the Roskill comments on the effect of birdstrike on aircraft throughout the world.
  There has apparently never been a fatal accident attributed to birdstrike on a United Kingdom revenue-earning aircraft. The last known accident attributed to birdstrike occurred in the USA in 1962, and there are many coastal airports in current use. Most birdstrike incidents of any kind appear to have very little effect. Incidents of birdstrike represent a rate of ·0003 per cent. of aircraft movements. The statistical argument that the risk is three times as great at Maplin is not, as the Roskill Commission itself said, an argument for not going to Foulness. BEA, as I have indicated, showed quite clearly that it would have been perfectly happy with the airport if it had been only 10 miles from London. If a high priority is given to noise pollution, this is a factor that cannot be accepted.
  The third objection put forward to Maplin is that of cost. The Government took the view, when deciding to go to Maplin rather than to Cublington or elsewhere, that the additional cost was justifiable because of the undoubted environmental advantages of choosing Maplin. We have no regrets for that decision. It will be remembered, moreover, that the extra cost attributed to Maplin by the Roskill Commission was very substantially due to increased costs to, and the value of the time of, passengers. In terms of construction costs, the difference between Maplin and other sites was not at all significant in relation to the total cost of the project.

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  It must also be remembered that reclamation produces new land, and in an area like the South-East, where the demand for land is so high, this must be taken to the benefit of Maplin. The cost will, of course, build up over a long period.
  There will be the reclamation for stage 1; that is, for a two-runway airport, a seaport with oil terminal and container facilities and some land which we shall be able to sell.
  Airport construction will start with a single runway and a single terminal, and the airport will be developed thereafter as and when demand justifies it with the second runway and additional terminal buildings coming along during the 1980s.
  I think I can perhaps best help the House by giving it an indication of what the present estimates of cost are up to opening date and again what the costs might be in 1990 on the assumption that at that stage two runways and five terminals are in operation. It would be unrealistic to look beyond 1990.
  All we can be sure of is that if further runways are necessary after 1990 it will be possible to provide them more cheaply by adding to the Maplin project than would have been the case if we had been short-sighted enough to choose for the third airport a site which was not capable of expansion beyond two runways.
  Any estimates of cost, as I am sure the House will understand must be tentative at this stage. On the basis I have indicated, the undiscounted costs at 1972 constant prices of reclamation and airport construction at opening date would be around £235 million, of which some £140 million would be for reclamation.
  The corresponding figure at 1990 would be some £625 million, the additional cost being entirely attributable to further airport construction, including a second runway and extra terminals. If we add the cost of the first stages of the seaport and the road and rail access, these figures become £440 million as the 1980 cost and £825 million as the 1990 cost.
  The great majority of this expenditure would of course, have been incurred elsewhere if it were not incurred at Maplin. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] That is obvious. Whether one argues for a different site in the South-East or whether one argues for an expansion of regional facili-
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  ties, the cost must be incurred because we cannot create increases in airport and seaport capacity without the provision of the facilities. There is, therefore, no case for saying that Maplin is somehow wildly extravagant or that the expenditure could be avoided.
  There will also be expenditure on the new town and access routes, but the new town expenditure is basically expenditure which would have been incurred in any case under our Strategy for the South-East, which shows South Essex as a growth area. I think that is quite right. I personally agree very much with Professor Buchanan's conclusion that the development of Maplin would play a vital rôle in reducing the social imbalances between the eastern and western sides of London.
  Mr. Nigel Spearing: The Secretary of State has raised a most important point in mentioning the question of a new town. He has spoken about East and West London. If there is to be a specific new town and no facilities of access to what already exists, then surely the prospects of their growth are diminished and not increased?
  Mr. Rippon: That is a very strong case for Maplin, and I agree.
  I emphasise, for the benefit especially of those hon. Members who I know have constituency interests and have represented them very strongly, that all this development—the airport, seaport, new town and the access—will take place with the highest priority given to its effect upon local people and the local environment.
  Our aim is, as far as possible, to build the new motorway and the public transport link in a single corridor, thereby reducing their impact on the environment of South Essex.
  The report of our consultants should be available shortly. When we have considered it there will be the fullest consultation with all the authorities concerned and an opportunity for public participation before decisions are taken on the route.
  As far as possible construction materials will be brought to the site either by sea or by rail. In so far as traffic has to use the roads, there will be a need for a comprehensive improvement

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  for the eastern end of the A127/A13 route. Major improvements to the western end of this route are already planned and should be completed before there is any major increase in surface traffic arising from the Maplin site. My Department is considering with the local authorities concerned what further work is necessary.
  Throughout the project, and particularly in this work on the new town and on the access routes, which in any event will be needed through Essex, we are working in close collaboration with the local authorities.
  My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary is, of course, in continuing touch with the local interests concerned through his progress review committee. He is in touch not only with the local authorities but also with hon. Members and others directly concerned.
  I turn now to the terms of the Bill. I will, with permission, concentrate on the main principles of the Bill as I understood the House wished today to have some debate to put in perspective the general need for the Bill.
  Granted that the House accepts that the Bill is required, it has three main objectives. First, it sets up the Maplin Development Authority and gives it the necessary powers to carry out the reclamation. Secondly, it gives the Authority the duty of making available the land needed for the airport and the seaport. Thirdly, it grants planning permission for the reclamation, the airport and the seaport.
  The Bill is hybrid, and there will be an opportunity for those whose interests are affected in a particular way to petition against the Bill and have their petitions considered by a Select Committee. Thereafter, the Bill will come back to the House in the appropriate way.
  Clause 1 and Schedule 1 provide for the setting up of the Maplin Development Authority. The Authority will have up to 11 members. I am pleased to be able to tell the House that Sir Frank Marshall has agreed to become the chairman of the new Authority. He has had very wide experience of public and commercial life, and I am sure that this will be invaluable in guiding the new Authority in the great tasks facing it.
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  Subiect to the progress of the Bill, it is my intention to appoint further members to the Authority so that it may be in a position to make progress with the projects as soon as the Bill becomes law. I am required under the Bill to consult certain bodies in relation to some of the appointments to the Authority. These bodies will include the British Airports Authority and the Port of London Authority as the two main prospective purchasers as well as the local authorities most concerned with the project.
  Clause 2 is the key to the Maplin Development Authority's powers and duties. The clause authorises the works of reclamation shown on the deposited plans subject, in the normal way, to limits of deviation. I have arranged for small-scale copies of the deposited plans to be available in the Vote Office. Clause 2 also puts a duty on the Authority to make available to the statutory authorities concerned the land needed for the airport and the seaport.
  The deposited plans show the total areas of reclamation needed to provide for a four-runway airport. The area is about 18,000 acres. As I have explained, we believe that it is right to provide for a site with potential to meet foreseeable demands. But we shall not need to reclaim the whole site in one operation. The first stage of the development of the airport will provide for two runways, and this is expected to be adequate for the demands up to 1990. We therefore envisage a major first stage reclamation of about 14,000 acres, some 6,500 acres of which would be for the airport and some 2,500 for the seaport.
  Sir Bernard Braine: There is a provision in the Bill which makes it plain that there are powers for the Authority to reclaim more land than that which is required for the airport and the seaport. Clause 2(5) states:
  "The remainder may be made available by the Authority for such industrial or commercial purposes … as the Secretary of State may approve."
  Will my right hon. and learned Friend kindly spell out to the House what are these commercial and industrial purposes?
  Mr. Rippon: I will come to that. My predecessor gave certain assurances on

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  the way in which that land would be developed and assurances that it would not be used for primary industry. I am very much aware of the anxiety about that.
  Although provision for the four-runway shape is one of the principles of the Bill, I can assure the House that there will be a thorough review before the MDA is authorised to go ahead with the second stage of the reclamation which will need to be carried out before the airport can be expanded beyond the first two runways.
  The reclamation shape has been settled in close consultation with the Hydraulics Research Station, and I understand that it is satisfied that the shape shown on the deposited plan would have no serious adverse effects.
  Clause 2(5) deals with the remainder land, and that is the point that concerns my hon. Friend the Member for Essex, South-East (Sir Bernard Braine). This is the substantial area of land—some 3,000 acres—thrown up by the decision to go for a reclamation shape including both a four-runway airport and a seaport. The development of this land will be subject to normal planning controls, and the Bill additionally provides that my approval is needed to proposals for its development. This will ensure that the development of this land is consistent with its proximity to a major airport and is in accordance with our regional, industrial and environmental policies. I repeat the assurances which my predecessor gave to the House on 2nd February 1972 about the way in which that land would be used, and that it would not be used, as he expressed it, for primary industry.
  There is no question of the development of the land being allowed to take place at a rate which would be in any way inconsistent with or contrary to planning policies.
  Sir Bernard Braine: I am afraid that the original assurances were to the effect that the development of the airport/seaport complex would not be accompanied by industrial development, whether primary or secondary. We now find this provision in the Bill, which is extremely alarming to my constituents, and we shall have to probe this matter a great deal further.
  Mr. Rippon: I follow my hon. Friend's concern, and this may have to be probed further. I simply repeat our assurances of the purpose. It is necessary in a Bill of this sort to make wide provision. This matter may have to be considered at the appropriate stage, or assurances and undertakings may have to be given in some other way. I do not think that there is a difference in principle between my hon. Friend and myself.
  Clause 4 gives the Secretary of State power to give directions to the MDA. Against the background of this power, I shall be able to give policy guidance to the new authority concerning, for instance, its relationship with other statutory authorities.
  Clause 5 applies the detailed provisions of Schedules 2 and 3. Clause 6 gives the MDA powers of land acquisition, including compulsory powers. The Bill itself does not authorise the compulsory purchase of any particular land. If the MDA needs to acquire land, or rights over land, compulsorily it will have to make a compulsory purchase order which will be subject to the normal procedures and rights of objection. Where land or rights are acquired compensation will be settled in accordance with the compensation code—including the improvements introduced by the Land Compensation Bill which is at present before the House.
  Clause 7 deals with planning permission. It grants planning permission for: first, reclamation and maintenance work to be carried out by the MDA within the limits of deviation; secondly, the construction of runways on specified lines—these lines provide for the siting of runways in accordance with the Government's decision, to choose site "C", so as to reduce noise nuisance over land—thirdly, it grants planning permission for development on the reclaimed land by the Civil Aviation Authority, which is responsible for the provision of air navigation services; and, fourthly, for the construction of a seaport by the Port of London Authority. The PLA has been informed that there is no objection in principle to its proposals. However, they still require my approval under Section 9 of the Harbours Act 1964, and this means that the need for the facilities which the PLA proposes, and the timing of this need, as well as the commercial viability

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  of the proposals, will have to be proved before approval is given.
  Mr. Dick Douglas: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman say what proposals are before him linked with the proposals of the Port of London Authority for the expansion of oil refining capacity in the South-East?
  Mr. Rippon: All those matters are for consideration. Various ideas have been canvassed on the basis of a seaport with capacity to take 250,000-ton tankers and, later on, 500,000-ton tankers. All these matters will have to be considered in detail, and the position about the scope of the proposals that might be approved is entirely reserved.
  In addition to these specific permissions, the Bill makes the airport site the operational land of the British Airports Authority. This means that the deemed permission granted by the current General Development Order will apply at Maplin as at other airports. However, the House will recall that the BAA gave assurances, when airport development was first included in the General Development Order in 1968 that it would consult fully with the local planning authority before carrying out significant development authorised by the GDO. It is important to understand that a Bill of this sort must of necessity create the machinery for action. The fact that it is a hybrid Bill and has to go through other parliamentary stages affords the opportunity now and subsequently for details to be considered in consultation with all concerned.
  Clause 8 deals with the extinguishment of public rights in the reclamation area. In general, public rights such as rights of navigation and fishing will be extinguished by the actual process of reclamation. But there is the possibility that there are some rights of way over the Sands, which might be considered to remain even after reclamation. The clause, therefore, provides a means of extinguishing such rights.
  In general, no compensation can be payable for the extinguishment of rights which are exerciseable by the public at large. Exceptionally, however, some special provision is proposed in Clause 18 to help those who have relied substantially on public rights exerciseable over the re-
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  claimed land for their means of livelihood. As I have said, where the MDA acquires any private rights over land, compensation will be payable on the usual basis, and on the basis of the new Land Compensation Bill.
  Clauses 9 to 12 deal with the financial structure of the MDA. Its main source of borrowing will be the National Loans Fund. The amount of its outstanding debt is limited to £200 million, but there is provision in the Bill for this limit to be raised to £250 million by order. The MDA's investment programme will be subject to Ministerial control under Clause 12.
  This clause also enables the MDA to enter into partnership with private companies and other bodies. We are anxious that the MDA should have the maximum flexibility for entering into such arrangements, so that private enterprise may participate in this great project. Arrangements of this kind may well present the best means of promoting the development of the remainder land. I must, however, repeat that such development will have to accord with regional and environmental policies. If my hon. Friend the Member for Essex, South-East or any other hon. Members representing Essex constituencies have doubts, we shall do our best to see that they are resolved.
  Clause 13 governs the terms on which the MDA is to dispose of the reclaimed land. Clause 14 provides the basis on which the MDA is to recover the costs that it incurs on maintaining the land. Clause 15 provides for the MDA's accounts and the auditing of them. We intend the accounts and the Authority's annual report to contain not merely the bare financial record, but statistical and descriptive material to make clear how the authority has performed in relation to its agreed objectives, and how it expects to perform in subsequent periods.
  In conclusion, I would reiterate this fundamental point: it is only by building a major new airport for London that we can maintain our position in world air transport and at the same time give a firm prospect of relief from increasing airport noise to the millions of people who at present suffer from it. After the years of discussion, after the years of exhaustive inquiry by Roskill, and after the debates we have had before and since a decision was taken, I hope it will now

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  be accepted that the Government must act and that we have taken into account all the changed circumstances that may be considered to have arisen since 1971. I ask the House to pass the Bill knowing that the decisions which the Government have taken are right and are unavoidable.
  5.1 p.m.
  Mr. Anthony Crosland: I beg to move, to leave out from "That" to the end of the Question and to add instead thereof:
  This House, while recognising the urgent need to alleviate the suffering from noise of those who live near Heathrow and the other existing South East airports, declines to give a Second Reading to the Maplin Development Bill until the case for a new airport and seaport complex at Maplin has been fully reappraised by the Civil Aviation Authority in the light of the many changed circumstances since the original decision was taken and of the development needs of other regions of the country.
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman gave a somewhat distorted version of some of my views in 1971 but I shall not waste the time of the House by correcting those distortions now. I am more concerned with some of the omissions from his speech, which I shall correct. In our debate two years ago we were mainly discussing the question: supposing we need a third London airport by 1980, where should that airport be? My own view, which was strongly expressed at the time, was that it should not be at Maplin, which I have always thought a thoroughly bad site on environmental, economic, aviation and regional grounds. But we are not arguing that point today. The House should be clear about this.
  We are arguing today this question: even assuming Maplin is the best site for some new runway capacity in the South-East by 1980, is the need for this development, and is the need for all the associated development at Maplin, so completely proven that we should push ahead at Maplin now, or have circumstances so changed since the original decision was taken that a reappraisal of that decision is both possible and urgently necessary? I shall argue this latter case.
  I must say at the outset that I do so with a full appreciation of the Secretary of State's difficulties, having been in a precisely similar position over Stansted when I went to the Board of Trade.
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  I know from that experience that these decisions acquire a frightful momentum inside the Government machine, and the right hon. Gentleman will certainly be under immense pressure from civil servants who have invested so much time and so many resources in the project and are naturally reluctant to be flogged round the course a third or fourth time.
  Nevertheless, for all their reluctance I believe circumstances have changed dramatically since Roskill, and what was characteristic of so much of the right hon. Gentleman's argument was that it was based on quotations from Roskill which are no longer apt or correct today. These changed circumstances are reflected, as we know, in a striking change of outside opinion, and I would say there is an overwhelming majority of expert opinion now in favour of at least a reappraisal. I shall discuss these changed circumstances under three heads: that the cost of Maplin will be much greater than was thought, that the need for Maplin in 1980 is very much less than was thought, and that the regional implications—which is perhaps the most important part of our debate—are far more disturbing than we had previously thought.
  First, as to the cost, the Secretary of State gave figures this afternoon which tally with those he gave yesterday if one adds access costs. Over £385 million is to be spent before a single aircraft can land at Maplin. That has to be spent before the first runway is completed. Then, by 1990 expenditure will rise to £825 million. I can find no one outside who believes a word of this. We have had so much experience now of the constantly escalating cost of these grandiose projects. We are not discussing Concorde today but we have found so much evidence on every one of these grandiose projects that the costs escalate out of sight; and I shall be amazed if the figure by 1990 is anything like £825 million.
  The point the House must decide is: do we really want to commit ourselves now to spending this gigantic sum on a third London airport when, as I shall hope to show, the need for it is unproven, when there are so many other pressing demands on public expenditure and so many other social projects of undisputed benefit which we shall be told we cannot afford? It is not simply the financial

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  cost, it is not simply the public expenditure with which the House should be concerned, but also—a matter to which I referred on Tuesday last—the cost in real resources. I have the gravest doubt whether the construction industry in the South-East, already badly overstretched, can take on this project on top of the housing programme that we want, hospital building and all the other developments we want in South-East England.
  There is comparatively little unemployment in the South-East, and, as every hon. Member from the South-East knows, there is an acute shortage of building craftsmen of all kinds. To put Maplin on top of all these other demands will be intensely over-loading the industry at a time when other regions in the country are crying out for jobs. So my first observation relates to the cost of public expenditure and whether we should not think again before embarking irrevocably on a project of this size.
  Next I turn to need, since the Government obviously assert that this cost, however large, must be incurred because the need for Maplin in 1980 is so evident and pressing. For myself, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, I did not believe this even in March 1971 when we debated the Roskill Report, but today I confine myself to factors which have clearly and demonstrably changed since then in such a way as to make that need less urgent. The first is the question of air traffic forecasts. At the time of the consultative document the Government were still basing themselves on the forecasts prepared by the Department of Trade and Industry Working Party on Traffic and Capacity at Heathrow. But these forecasts are now three years old. They were much criticised at the time for their methodology. They were substantially higher than the forecasts of the Roskill Commission, which were themselves widely criticised as being too high. Yet there has never been any explanation given for this discrepancy.
  Mr. Rippon: With respect, I believe they are marginally lower than the forecasts of the Roskill research team. It is only a matter of whether air traffic doubles or just goes up by 90 per cent.
  Mr. Crosland: We can check that before the winding up speeches, but I am
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  absolutely certain that they were higher than Roskill forecasts. But in any case we are now told that these forecasts were revised in the DTI a year ago, but revised without the airlines, whose collaboration in such an exercise is crucial. The revised forecast has never been published. But what is relevant to our debate this afternoon is that we now know that the Civil Aviation Authority is heading a joint team, this time with the airlines, to conduct a major review of these forecasts. I am told that the first meeting of this joint team is actually to take place next week. Surely, the least we can ask for this afternoon is that this Bill should be postponed until the CAA review is completed, published and debated so that the public can make up their own mind on the timing and the need.
  At any rate, even if we take the existing DTI forecasts, there is virtual unanimity that we shall not need an additional runway in the South-East before 1983 at the earliest—and most experts put it much later. I will give only one quotation. It is from the 1972 Annual Report of BEA:
  "By embarking on a high capacity aircraft policy, with the necessary airport developments which this would entail, movements of aircraft at Heathrow and Gatwick of the two corporations (BEA and BOAC) could be accommodated until the late 1980s. The comparative quietness of the wide-bodied aircraft enables such a policy to be pursued whilst at the same time greatly improving the environment around Heathrow."
  This is without taking any account of a major point to which I shall come later, the possibilities of diversion of traffic from Heathrow to regional airports.
  The Minister for Aerospace and Shipping (Mr. Michael Heseltine)rose——
  Mr. Crosland: I propose to give way very little, as there is a large number of back benchers who wish to speak and who will not get in at this rate.
  Mr. Heseltine: I want to understand what the right hon. Gentleman is saying. Did he say that the needs of the two British airlines could be incorporated in these plans? What about the other airlines?
  Mr. Crosland: The next sentence in my speech—this is always the trouble with giving away—is that it is quite reasonable

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  to argue that if this is true of BEA and BOAC it could be equally true of other airlines. I have been reading from the BEA report of 1972. This is allowing nothing for any diversion to the regions, to which I shall come later. It is no use Ministers denying this. If they do, they are getting the most extraordinary briefing—which indeed I suspect.
  We all know that there is practically no outside expert who believes that we shall need an additional runway in the South East by 1980. The only division amongst the experts is whether we shall need one in the mid-1980s, the late 1980s or never.
  Mr. Hugh Jenkins: My right hon. Friend, talking about the experts and their considered opinion, suggested that we do not need a new runway until the 1980s. Is he aware that from the point of view of people who are being overflown we have long needed a new runway in the South-East and that we want it as soon as possible?
  Mr. Crosland: Even under the Bill my hon. Friend will not get one until 1980. I knew that he wanted to make this point. I shall come later to the problem of Heathrow noise.
  The second thing that has changed, which I think the right hon. and learned Gentleman underestimated, is that quieter aircraft are being introduced into service faster than Roskill anticipated and faster than anybody in 1971 anticipated.
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman quoted from the consultative document. It is worth quoting two more sentences because the scale of this potential relief is still not generally realised. The consultative document states that one of the most important changes since the Roskill Report is that by 1995 new types of aircraft would be only half as noisy as existing ones.
  The document correctly goes on to state:
  "But already in 1972 major new types of aircraft (the Douglas DC10 and Lockheed 1011) have emerged and are flying with recorded noise levels well below this. And this is a continuing process. … The effect is to produce far more favourable forecasts of quieter aircraft than assumed by the Roskill Commission."
  I imagine that all right hon. and hon. Members have read the document. Para-
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  graph 27 shows the sort of reduction for people, for example, within the 35 NNI contour, which will be the consequence of these quieter aircraft. It is a dramatic reduction which could be broadly translated from Maplin, allowing for whatever the distribution of the population is, to the existing London airports.
  All this is without taking any account, which the Secretary of State hardly did, of the possibility of retrofits. The right hon. and learned Gentleman will know that many people in the industry maintain that a dramatic improvement could occur by 1980 if more research and effort were spent on that aspect.
  The right hon. and learned Gentleman also said nothing about RTOL—reduced take-off and landing. He confined himself to STOL and VTOL and did not refer to RTOL which the industry regards as a very much more promising line.
  Mr. Rippon: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not go on saying that I did not refer to various matters. On the noise shadow and the change to quieter aircraft, the difference is between Roskill's idea of 35 NNI over 35 miles and the present one of 24. A 24-mile noise shadow is still very considerable. I dealt with VTOL and STOL. The right hon. Gentleman may have seen what Peter Masefield said about that in The Times.
  Mr. Crosland: On noise contours I refer the right hon. and learned Gentleman to paragraph 27 of his own document showing a reduction from 20,300 people at site A to 1,360 people within the 35 NNI contour due to improvements in quieter engines.
  Mr. Heseltine: Has the right hon. Gentleman taken the imprint that is shown over the seas around Maplin put over the inland sites to see how many people would be affected if we followed his suggestion?
  Mr. Crosland: My point is that this kind of reduction in noise at Maplin, due to quieter engines, must have striking consequences for other existing airports if it is applied to them. There is nothing complicated about it. I have taken the Government's figures for the Maplin reduction and I am saying that they must have some meaning for other airports.
  Mr. Adley: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the new Hawker Siddeley aircraft, the HS146, I think, has a noise shadow of only 3·4 miles?
  Mr. Crosland: I do not know why the right hon. and learned Gentleman denied this point. He dismissed, as I am about to do, STOL and VTOL but said nothing about the far more promising reduced take-off and landing. I hope that in the reply tonight the Minister will give us some detail about RTOL which is regarded in the industry as more promising.
  Mr. Heseltine Mr. Heseltine rose——
  Mr. Crosland: I will not give way. I understand that the Minister is to reply. As he is an expert in these matters, perhaps he will then give us an up-to-date assessment of the prospects over the next two years, given Government support of the RTOL development. The House, I am sure, will be obliged to him if he does. If he says that there are no prospects of any kind, he will be in strong disagreement with most people in the industry.
  The question of larger aircraft is another change with which the right hon. and learned Gentleman dealt and which is also most relevant. But I want to turn to some of the regional implications which have not been properly considered in his speech.
  We are now to have a much larger industrial and urban complex than was envisaged two years ago. We are to have room for a four-runway airport. This was confirmed again today. We are to have new industry. We are to have large-scale urban development. We are to have a seaport.
  We have heard surprisingly little about the seaport or the case for it. There has been no inquiry, as far as I know, to determine the effects of the seaport on other regions. The trouble is that since the Government rejected nationalisation of the ports we have had no effective ports planning body. It has not been made clear why we need the seaport on this scale at this point: why, for example, some of this traffic should not go to Southampton; why some of this traffic should not go to other ports on the East Coast; why some of this traffic should not go to other regions altogether. It
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  seems quite wrong to go ahead with this seaport in the absence of a national inquiry or any suggestion of a national seaport plan.
  It seems that in South Essex we are to have a large industrial complex, a massive degree of urbanisation, a seaport, a substantial airport town and a much larger new town associated with all these activities.
  A number of questions arise which the right hon. and learned Gentleman did not answer. First, is this good planning, even in terms of the South-East? To say the least, some of us have serious doubts. Professor Buchanan, who alone of the Roskill Commission supported Foulness, said in paragraph 48 of his minority report:
  "My assessment as a professional planner … is that with careful design it would be possible to accommodate the airport population and to leave space for additional population dependent on airport-associated activities."
  What the Government are now planning goes far beyond the airport and its associated activities—[Interruption.] Has the seaport been withdrawn? Has all this reference to industry and corn-merge in the Bill no meaning at all?
  In paragraph 6.26, on page 41, the majority of the Roskill Commission stated:
  "There could in our view be serious regional planning objections to development on this scale. We think it right to draw attention to the view expressed by the South-East Joint Planning Team in its report that there seemed to be no over-riding reason on planning grounds why a major seaport industrial project should be promoted in the south-east region."
  What will be the effect on London?
  Sir Bernard Braine Sir Bernard Braine rose——
  Mr. Crosland: No doubt we shall hear about South-East Essex and the degree of urbanisation involved. It will not help to revitalise the East End, as has been suggested, because it is much too far away. In fact it will do the opposite. It will accelerate the loss of jobs and the removal of population from inner London.
  As hon. Members representing London constituencies will know, the GLC has been anxious for a long time about the loss of population and employment since 1960. It is extremely anxious because it fears that London may become a

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  polarised community and that in particular the poor will suffer and because of the possible effects on the rating burden and financial situation generally. The GLC fears a slide towards a soaring rate burden which will encourage more outward migration and yet higher rates.
  Mr. Kenneth Warren: The GLC is in favour.
  An Hon. Member: Go back to Hastings.
  Mr. Crosland: It may be that these fears are exaggerated, but it is possible that London has now reached the point where it is far from obvious that any further major run-down, let alone any acceleration of it, would be a benefit.
  In any case, if there is to a further migration of people and jobs, it should go not to South Essex but to the development areas or the intermediate areas, or perhaps to Milton Keynes or other new and expanding towns, but the whole of the migration from inner London should certainly not go to South-East Essex.
  The regional implications alone call for a drastic rethink. So the case for a reappraisal seems to me overwhelming on the grounds of cost, unproven need and regional implications. But we must then answer the crucial question of how we can help the sorely-pressed people who live round Heathrow and other South-East airports. Contrary to what may be thought, I am acutely conscious of the noise problem. As the right hon. and learned Gentleman quoted me as saying, I regard noise as one of the greatest abominations of our time. For a time I lived in West London under a flight path. Last Friday I went to Windsor to preach the case against Maplin. I spent the whole of Friday morning listening to intolerable noise. For myself, I believe that Maplin is the least effective method of bringing help to the sufferers from noise at London Airport as it is wholly unlikely to be a success. Roskill made a sensible remark when he said that a third London Airport must be able to succeed as an airport and must be able to meet the needs of those whom it is designed to serve. I do not think that it will do so.
  If we reject or seek to delay Maplin, which is what we are doing in our amendment, we are under an obligation to suggest an alternative strategy for alleviat-
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  ing noise suffering. The first part of our alternative strategy—it is extraordinary that it has aroused so much cynicism and scepticism from the Government—and the most obvious is to press even harder for still quieter engines and for the development of reduced take-off and landing. There has already been a substantial improvement which even the Secretary of State recognised. Despite what has been said, there is a large body of technical opinion which thinks that a fraction of the cost of Maplin spent on the development of retrofits and RTOL could produce a very large reduction in the noise problem in the next 10 years. We will be interested to hear what the Minister says about that.
  The first element in an alternative strategy is surely to switch part of the resources needed for Maplin to pressing ahead hard and urgently with this work. The second part of such a strategy relates to the regional airports to which the Secretary of State referred whilst using largely Roskill arguments which are now frequently out of date. It is a profound irony that Heathrow wants to get rid of its traffic, that most Maplin residents do not want to receive it and that other airports in the country are only too happy to have it.
  I do not mean that all provincial airports are environmentally satisfactory. Some of them clearly are environmentally worse from any point of view than the London airports. But surely traffic, especially charter, can be diverted on a larger scale than the Secretary of State envisaged this afternoon—for example, Castle Donington could take much of Luton's traffic. There are Liverpool, Spoke, about which hon. Members are keen, Manchester, Newcastle and Glasgow. There is much more of a possibility of doing this on a substantial scale than was the case two years ago, partly because of the development since then of still more rapid trains, and partly because it has become clear that the charter operators are more and more willing to bus people long distances provided that the airports are reasonably convenient.
  I shall take Grimsby as an example. Last Saturday the coach operators, without the slightest difficulty, bussed 8,000 from Grimsby to Coventry. That was done without any fuss or bother other

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  than that caused by the most dubious penalty decision in the last few minutes of the game. The coach operators would be just as willing to bus, if our policy encouraged them to do so, to the airports of the Midlands, the North East, after the Humber Bridge is completed, and the North West. They would probably be more willing to bus charter passengers to those airports than to Maplin.
  The honeypot argument was used strongly two years ago—[Interruption.] If hon. Members would listen for a moment they would find something concrete to reply to. It was used strongly by Sir Peter Masefield and others two years ago. It was argued that the South East airports had become so overwhelmingly attractive that they would continue to attract passengers from other parts of the country to begin their air journeys from London. That is less convincing now. The argument can be used now about regional airports. There is a self-reinforcing process. As the traffic grows more people are inclined to go to them to start their holidays, and that has a self-reinforcing effect. Both Manchester and Glasgow are near that point now. With proper Government policies, other regional airports could be at that level by 1980. We could divert much more than the Secretary of State suggested to the regional airports.
  Mr. Rippon: I suggested a diversion of the equivalent of four Heathrows.
  Mr. Crosland: We shall know how much more we can divert when the studies to which I am about to refer have been completed. However, we could divert on a larger scale. Let us make sure that we do so by differential pricing, increasingly stringent noise limitations, controls and regulations. If that adds something to the cost of flying, so be it. It will still be far less than the cost of building Maplin.
  The third element in a strategy to relieve the London Airport noise sufferers is to query the whole concept of a major third London airport and the concept of the next major airport being in the South East. That raises the question of a national airport plan. The reason why successive Governments have not embarked on such a plan, which the CAA report shows is not as simple a
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  matter as some people might believe, is that it has been taken almost completely for granted until recently that there would be such a great growth of traffic in the South East that, whatever was done in the rest of the country, there would still be the need for additional runways in the South East. But this assumption is widely challenged today.
  Moreover, the Civil Aviation Authority is for the first time, in the document "Airport Planning: an Approach on a National Basis", thinking in terms of national airport planning. I was surprised that the Secretary of State made no reference to this. The CAA is about to commission a study with the following terms of reference:
  "To examine and advise on the desirable future structure of the airport system in the North West, Yorkshire and Humberside, West Midlands and East Midlands Regions, and if necessary the Bristol/South Wales area also."
  These are the regions from which the London airports draw large numbers of passengers at present. Almost all of them are also regions with substantially higher unemployment than the South East and are therefore more in need of airport development on the grounds of unemployment policy.
  It would be crazy to pre-empt this possibility and the CAA study by pushing blindly ahead with Maplin. Indeed a number of people in the industry think that the next international airport should not be built in the South East at all but should be built in the Midlands or the North. [HON. MEMBERS: "Who?"] Mr. Capper, who was heavily involved in the Roskill inquiry, and Mr. Flowerdew, who was the deputy director of research, to quote two.
  It is worth taking notice of another matter. The CAA says:
  "airports are very large and not easily adaptable pieces of investment; mistakes can be very expensive."
  Yes, they can be. Therefore, let us give ourselves a little more time to make sure that we are not making a catastrophic mistake.
  The Secretary of State raised the question whether, even if we press ahead with diversions to the regions and a possible new international airport, we should still need additional runway capacity in the South East. He reminded us of our discussion in 1971 on conventional runway capacity when I argued that we

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  might need a limited additional capacity in the South East. I retain an open mind. We must await the results of the CAA studies. We certainly do not need it by 1980, and if we prove to need it later, which is very hard to judge, my view is the same as it was two years ago: that we could and should find a single runway coastal site which would not have the appalling disadvantages of Maplin.
  That is one of many uncertainties. They all point to an alternative strategy which provides for the uncertainties—in other words, a strategy on a wide front—instead of going bald-headed for this single, immensely expensive and possibly obsolete solution of endless more miles of concrete runway in the overcrowded South East.
  All this adds up to a commanding case for a reappraisal and for an up dated study to be carried out by the CAA, which is already reconsidering the traffic forecasts and studying the airport needs of different parts of the country.
  I know what the Secretary of State's difficulties are. But we are dealing with what may prove to be the largest investment decision of the century, one with profound implications for public expenditure, regional planning and the environment. The original decision of two years ago was taken in good faith, but circumstances have changed dramatically, and so, I believe, has public opinion.
  Therefore, we must at least consider the possibility of an alternative strategy. If the reappraisal shows that there is no practicable alternative strategy, I shall withdraw my opposition to Maplin. Nothing will have been lost, because one thing is clear: that we do not need a new runway for some years after 1980.
  This is a situation which is immensely awkward for a politician or a Minister when to stick to a decision is the easy but wrong way out. The hard course of action, to reconsider the decision, requires great political courage. I hope that for the sake of the country the Secretary of State will display that courage.
  5.35 p.m.
  Sir Stephen McAdden: Although Foulness used to be in my constituency, but is now in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Essex, South-East (Sir Bernard Braine) the House may be surprised, but no doubt pleased, to learn that I shall
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  make only a very short speech. That is not because I could not make a long speech. I could make a very long speech, but my hon. Friend and I have made so many speeches on the subject to a succession of Ministers, without having much effect, that I have come to the conclusion that it might be much better if other hon. Members were to take up some of the points which have apparently only recently come to their attention, and to state in 1973 some of the things we were saying in 1971.
  This debate is taking place the day after a debate on public expenditure. How appropriate! A vast sum of public expenditure is involved in what we are considering.
  I want to remind the House of the circumstances in which the Maplin announcement was made. This is the first opportunity the House has had to debate the decision to build an airport there. It was an executive decision upon which the House had not a word to say. In the state of euphoria which then existed, hon. Members were so delighted to get the airport away from their own constituencies and send it down to South-East Essex that they were overwhelmed with stories and propaganda about how a great City consortium would build the magnificent airport at no cost to the country. Stupidly, they believed what they had heard. They were all carried away with so much emotion that they thought "What a splendid idea!"
  It is only now, when second thoughts are beginning to arise, when people have realised that it is not just a few Essex peasants who will be affected and that the great City consortium will not give them all the money they want for nothing, that people realise that it is we who must pay the bill and that therefore we should look rather carefully at some of the details.
  I want only to give the headings of the considerations we should bear in mind and to let other hon. Members make the speeches. The first heading is regional planning. I do not know how on earth we shall justify to our colleagues in the EEC that they should pour money into regional planning in this country when they see us chucking it down the drain here.
  I was sorry that my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State

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  followed the fashion of pooh-poohing bird strikes. They are a serious problem, and my right hon. and learned Friend does his cause no justice by pretending that they are not.
  The question of the need for the airport at all has been dealt with by the right hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland).
  There are other minor considerations here—minor to the House, but not to the people concerned. There is the question for my right hon. and learned Friend of the preservation of the inshore route to Burnham for sailors. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is a sailor. The matter may seem of minor interest, but we should not assume that sailing is a prerogative of rich men. It is not. Thousands of ordinary men and women, many of them from Southend, practise the art. The preservation of the inshore route to Burnham is very important to them.
  The next matter will perhaps appeal more to the palate of hon. Members. Going ahead with Maplin will mean the ruin of the cockles industry. What steps will the Government take to preserve it?
  What will the Government reply to the fact that every airline in the world has denounced the idea of going to Maplin? The British Airports Authority did not want it at Maplin either.
  What are we to do about the Shoeburyness ranges, one of the other comforts of life in my constituency. Nobody wants those either. The Ministry of Defence tried to get rid of those to Mid-Wales, but Mid-Wales does not want them. There was a suggestion that they should go to Scotland, but Scotland does not want them. Those ranges are still in Southend, and until the Government find a home for them they cannot build the airport at Maplin.
  The Bill is important not so much for what is in it but for what is left out of it. It is a Bill which will make it possible to construct an airport and seaport at Maplin. Goodness knows how the passengers will get there and back, for that aspect is not mentioned in the Bill. These are problems which concern the people of South-East Essex in particular and the people in my constituency,
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  because they want to know what will happen to the road system.
  I have taken up this matter with Ministers in the past. I have asked how they intend to transport construction materials to the site. I have been told that most of the material will go by sea and the rest by a train service at night. I have been looking into the situation and I understand that the railway line from Fen-church Street will be extended east of Thorpe Bay station to run to Maplin. We have been told that this will provide the link for construction purposes. What a load of nonsense! The line is one of the most heavily-used commuter lines in the country. It has only two lines, one up and one down. The commuter service does not finish until two in the morning and the day service starts at four in the morning. Therefore, there will be only two hours between 2 a.m. and 4 a.m. in which to get this vast amount of material transported.
  The only alternative is to proceed by road—and there are only two main roads to Southend, the A13 and the A127. These are among the most densely populated roads in the country. It sometimes takes me half an hour to get from Southend to Rayleigh. There is certainly no possibility of sending construction traffic along the Al27, and no provision has so far been announced by the Government to send the construction traffic along any other road.
  It is self-evident that sooner or later roads will have to be built to take traffic to and from the airport. Why not build the roads first before the airport is built? If the roads are built first, they will be able to take the construction traffic to the site.
  Sir Bernard Braine: My hon. Friend asks very pertinent questions about the road communications, but he should tell the House that, so far, all we have managed to extract from Ministers is that the new motorway will not be in operation until the airport is open. This constitutes an impossible situation for my hon. Friend's constituents and for mine.
  Sir S. McAdden: That is exactly what I am saying—that the road should be built first, not last, and that the Government should take the opportunity to provide roads on which the construction traffic can travel.

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  There is then the question of the reclamation of land under Clause 2 of the Bill and the planning permission for the development granted by Clause 7, which again is likely to involve the A13 and the Al27. If those roads are to be widened and improved for this purpose, will Southend have to bear the cost wholly from public funds? We did not ask for the airport, and if it is necessary to carry out these improvements the work should be paid for by the central Government.
  We also feel that a provision should he written into the Land Compensation Bill—it may be a little late because that Bill finished its Committee stage this morning, though there is still the Report stage to come—to make it possible for compensation to be paid to people when the foundations of their houses are ruined by construction traffic. Does the Minister realise that both the A127 and the A13 at their eastern ends pass through the borough of Southend, a highly-populated borough, and that this will involve possible damage to the foundations of a great deal of residential property?
  I hope that provision will be made to give assistance to people who are affected. If no assistance is given to people who will have to suffer from the effects of an airport they do not want, and until the Government have thought the thing through more clearly than they have done so far, I believe that we should refuse to give the Bill a Second Reading.
  5.45 p.m.
  Mr. Douglas Jay: I have the greatest sympathy with the remarks made by the hon. Member for Southend, East (Sir S. McAdden). But the speech made by the Secretary of State for the Environment reminded me of the sort of speeches that we once used to hear about Concorde.
  I believe that the Maplin project is most likely to be a stupendous waste of public money; that it could easily become a white elephant; that even if the airlines were forced to use it it would be inconvenient and uneconomic; that it would encourage further most undesirable industrial development in the South East; and that effective insurance against exceptional North Sea surges would push
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  the cost far above the estimates which we have been given today.
  Not surprisingly the Roskill Commission, which investigated the Maplin idea more thoroughly than anybody, rightly rejected it. Maplin notably suffers from the defect that we do not know what the technical and traffic conditions will be in the late 1980s and it cannot be made to work at all unless very high expenditure is incurred. I believe that what commonsense and prudence now demand is one or two more major runways at existing airports, which will enable further development in the late 1980s if they then prove to be necessary.
  Everybody who has examined the problem seriously, impartially and thoroughly knows that there is a far better case for enlarging Stansted than for this immense Maplin project. On almost every single count Stansted is better than Maplin. There is an airport with one runway already at Stansted. The addition of another runway would cost barely one-tenth of the cost of Maplin. Far fewer people would be affected by noise in the Stansted area than in the larger Southend area, as everybody who has looked at the figures knows. Large parts of Essex would be saved from devastating motorways and, not least, runways would be provided which the airline passengers actually want to use. As the right. hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) said in a newspaper article—and I wholly agree with him—Maplin involves a greater total noise nuisance and destruction of homes than any other possible site.
  In this controversy too many people have ignored one simple basic fact. It is this: that since the worst aircraft noise in the jet age is caused on take-off and since in the south-east of England the wind is in the south-west or the west for over 80 per cent. of the hours of the year, any airport on the East Coast must involve major noise if not over, but still very close to, inhabited areas. It so happens that in the case of Maplin, not in the immediate take-off zone but within the wider noise area, there is in the Southend-Shoeburyness district a population nearly double that of the area south-west of Stansted. When one allows for the motorways which we should have to have right across Essex and, incidentally, for

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  the North Kent towns not very far away, the disturbance caused by Maplin would injure far more people than another runway at Stansted, though they would be poorer people with less influence in the House of Lords.
  The public relations campaign that we had in 1967 against Stansted was not a spontaneous expression of local opinion. It was organised largely by a group of substantial landowners one of whom was simultaneously trying to sell some of the land in question to the British Airports Authority. The group spent £40,000 on the public inquiry and a further large sum in propaganda after it. According to statements made on the BBC's programme "Twenty-four Hours" on 20th March 1969,
  "At one meeting three people gave £500 each and they would have given more if the organisers had not been so worried about the bad publicity of a millionaire image."
  Of the letters and postcards reaching the Board of Trade at that time, those against Stansted came mainly from W.1 and S.W.3 addresses. Those in favour came from Stansted. Harlow and Bishop's Stortford, including, the local trades council.
  It is a somewhat discreditable episode in the history of the British Press that it was taken in so easily by this charade. I would be the last to suggest that the British Press is ever bribed. That is not the English way. But this controversy has reminded me at times of the classic lines
  "You cannot bribe, cajole or twist,
  Thank God, the British journalist.
  But seeing what the man will do,
  Unbribed, there is no reason to."
  I am not the author of those lines but I think that they are apt.
  What was the pressure exerted on the Roskill Commission to omit Stansted from its short list? The Times told us on 4th March 1969 that its inclusion would have been "emotive". At the same date the Financial Times said that its omission was "diplomatic". The British Airports Authority and the Board of Trade assumed that it was bound to be on the short list. The British Airports Authority was even told that it need not ask the commission to put it on because it was certain to be included. Yet it was omitted, and the commission's work was handicapped from the start.
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  Thus handicapped, in my opinion the Roskill Commission did its very best. Faced with the resulting choice between Foulness and a South Midlands site for which there is a good deal to be said, it came down decisively against Foulness and in favour of Cublington.
  Then we had another curious alliance between landed interests in Bedfordshire and Buckinghamshire opposed to Cublington and commercial interests anxious to develop Foulness—
  Mr. Norman Tebbit: Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves the point about Stansted, in fairness to my predecessor in this House I ought to say that he was one of those opposed to the Stansted project. I would never think of him as being in the pockets of wealthy landowners or any set of that kind. It happens that I disagree with him on this issue as on many others, but it is right to be fair to him. Incidentally, I have a house on the approach to Stansted too.
  Mr. Jay: I never suggested that. I was recalling what happened.
  According to The Times of 5th April 1971, the group resisting Cublington spent £50,000
  "to persuade the Roskill Commission that the airport should be built at Foulness and not at Cublington"—
  not just that it should not be built at Cublington but that it should be built at Foulness.
  After the Roskill Commission's report, this group spent a great deal more, and the same article in The Times said that the pro-Foulness propaganda groups together spent "at least £700,000" to convince the public and Parliament that Foulness was the right solution.
  At this point Sir John Howard enters the argument. According to the article in The Times that I have quoted, he was head of a civil engineering firm and, incidentally, a former chairman of the National Union of Conservative and Unionist Associations, though no doubt that is irrelevant. He happened to live near Thurleigh in Bedfordshire and he founded the Thames Estuary Development Company to promote the Maplin project. The Times says that Sir John
  "first lighted on Foulness during the fight against Stansted, in which he was closely involved."

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  He "lighted" on Foulness as it were by chance. His consortium, backed also by RTZ, John Mowlem and Shell, spent more than £500,000 in supporting the Foulness case. Much of the driving force in all this thus came not from people impressed with the merits of Foulness but from those who wanted to keep the airport away from other sites.
  Here I return to the speech of the hon. Member for Southend, East. What was the opinion of more than 150,000 people living in the Southend area about this? That is for them and their representatives to say, and I am sure that we shall hear the hon. Member for Essex, South-East (Sir Bernard Braine)—
  Sir Bernard Braine: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will be accurate. There are 310,000 people living in the three constituencies bounded by the Thames and the Crouch who are affected by this proposal.
  Mr. Jay: I always believe in understatements because they strengthen one's case. The hon. Gentleman has strengthened my case further. What were the opinions of those 300,000 persons—far more than live within 20 miles round Stansted, perhaps three times as many? I am sure that the hon. Member for Southend, East will not question this as a fact. But I understand that with the support of the leader of the Southend Corporation the corporation took a share in Sir John Howard's consortium, and the town clerk of Southend, according to The Times, became a director of it. Whether that was the best way of handling these matters, I have no doubt that all those concerned thought that they were acting in the best interests of Southend.
  Sir S. McAdden: The right hon. Gentleman asked what were the opinions of the people of Southend. They were never consulted. This was a decision of the council to invest £100,000 of the ratepayers' money in Tedco. The council thought that it would make £6 million. Instead, it has lost the lot.
  Mr. Jay: It is what I have always suspected to be the truth. I stated it rather diffidently, but the hon Member for Southend, East has confirmed it.
  From the point of view of this House, the opinion of the Roskill Commission on Maplin is worth a good deal more than
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  that of this consortium formed in the way that I have described.
  I am afraid that what emerges from the story is that both the selection of Maplin and the omission of Stansted have been influenced far too much by the money spent on the commercial publicity and far too little by serious consideration of the public interest.
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Eldon Griffiths): The right hon. Gentleman suggested that it was propaganda and rich men who removed Stansted. Is it not a fact that after he, as President of the Board of Trade, had pushed for Stansted it was his right hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) who put Stansted on one side? Is the right hon. Gentleman suggesting that his own Government were pushed by that group of sinister people whom he has just described? If so, does he not feel thoroughly ashamed?
  Mr. Jay: The Roskill Commission was set up, and if the Under-Secretary had been listening he would know that I have already described that part of the story. Let me repeat one sentence for the hon. Gentleman's benefit. Unfortunately the merits of the report were greatly reduced by the fact that Stansted was omitted from the short list at the start.—[Interruption.] Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to carry on because I am able partially to agree with the Government. I cannot agree with those who say "Let us get away from the problem by putting the airport somewhere in the north of England."
  Mr. Crosland: May I he allowed to set the record straight? The exclusion of Stansted from the short list of the Roskill Commission was nothing whatever to do with the Government The choice of the short list was done entirely by Roskill.
  Mr. Douglas: Withdraw.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: It is unfair to prolong this. I did not suggest that. I simply made it perfectly plain that this had been put forward by the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) on the merits of Stansted when he was the responsible Minister. A change was then made at the Board of Trade and the right hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) came in. He made a different

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  decision. He decided that Stansted should not be proceeded with but that a commission should be set up to re-examine the whole matter. In short, he threw down the decision that his right hon. Friend had previously made.
  Mr. Jay: The hon. Gentleman is only trying to produce red herrings, and I think that the debate would get on better if he would keep quiet. I was coming to the point when I am able to agree in part with the senior Minister to whom the hon. Gentleman is responsible. We cannot, I fear, set the whole of this issue aside by saying "Let us put the airport somewhere in the North of England."
  The information we have had from Roskill and all the other information that I have had simply does not support this. I agree that there can be some diversion of traffic. But why should we assume that people in the North or North-West of England like aircraft noise any more than those in the South East? Nor can it possibly be sensible to say that noise does not really matter as long as we put the airport somewhere where it is not needed. I cannot accept the argument in that simplified form. Nor can I agree with others who blithely say, as they seemed to have been saying in the last few weeks, that we do not need any more runway capacity in the South East over the next five to 10 years.
  We do not know for sure what the demand for runway space will be 10 or 15 years hence. But it is almost certain that the demand will be a good deal greater than it is now. If we delay and do nothing, we shall lose valuable air traffic to the Continent. That is why I believe, setting aside all the pressures from vested interests, that the prudent and economic course now would be to complete the second runway at Gatwick which has always been contemplated and build one more full-scale runway at one-tenth of the cost of Maplin at the right place, where we already have an airport, namely Stansted. After that we should review the situation some years hence in the light of the technical and traffic information then available.
  In that way we would avoid a vast gamble and probably much waste of public money, the diversion of new
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  industry from development areas to the South East, the devastation of a wide area of Essex by motorways and of the Southend area by noise. We would also avoid a still further worsening of the housing situation in the South East. And as a minor benefit we would provide airport services which millions of passengers and the airlines would actually want to use.
  6.4 p.m.
  Mr. F. A. Burden: I found the speeches of the right hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) and his right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) rather confusing. At this stage it might be as well firmly to establish that it was the last Government that set up the Roskill Commission. We must accept that they did so because they considered it was necessary to have more airport space. As I understand it, the terms of the Roskill Commission were to confirm this and to determine the need for a third London airport. There would have been no need for the Government to set up the commission unless their own investigations had made them feel that this was necessary.
  The right hon. Member for Battersea, North made some implications about Stansted and the outside influences that could have been brought to bear on the Roskill Commission in turning down Stansted or in not putting it forward. This is an extraordinary argument. If it is true, and I am not suggesting that it is, it is odd that that group of eminent men set up to examine this project by the right hon. Gentleman's Government should now be accused of allowing their judgment to be influenced by external pressures. I believe that not only the last Government but practically everyone in the House over the years, certainly those of us who have been here for some time, have come to the conclusion that it is necessary to have a third London airport.
  The Government's acceptance of that need was conveyed very clearly by the right hon. Member for Grimsby, who set up the Roskill inquiry and who as recently as 4th March 1971 said that most people thought there would be a need. He gave no evidence then that he

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  had changed his mind. He later also said:
  "a definite case has been made for some additional capacity…by the early or the middle 1980s."—[OFFCIAL REPORT, 4th March 1971; Vol. 812, c. 1923.]
  It was not five years ago or a decade ago when the right hon. Gentleman reaffirmed that necessity, but just two years ago. I find it strange that he should make the speech he did today without in any way saying why he had changed his mind since 1971.
  Mr. Crouch: My hon. Friend has changed his mind.
  Mr. Burden: That is true. I opposed Foulness and spoke strongly against it. I felt that there would be a considerable noise nuisance over my constituency and north-east Kent generally. That is one of the main reasons why Members representing Kent constituencies have taken exception to Foulness. I also felt that there would possibly be no industrial or social benefits accruing from the development for Kent and also that airlines objected; but there is no evidence that every airline in the world has made objections, as has been said today. That was a gross exaggeration. Perhaps BEA and BOAC have done so, but, as my right hon. and learned Friend pointed out, the only real objection that BEA had was that it was more than 10 miles from London. Anyone with any commonsense knows that it is not possible to place a new airfield complex within 10 miles of London.
  Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Bird strikes.
  Mr. Burden: I will come to that later. I have changed my mind and I am now in favour of Foulness. There is nothing wrong in my changing my mind. Indeed, I am in extremely good company in this august House in doing that. I can give some good reasons for changing my mind. In the first place, since the advent of the RB211 there has been a considerable reduction in engine noise. It is accepted by everyone that this will be progressive. Therefore, the inconvenience and the stress caused to people by this project will greatly diminish. And of course we must accept also that if we have an airport on the coast, such as Foulness, and if the aircraft take off over the sea and gain height over the sea—and this is
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  when the incidence of noise is far greatest—this in itself is an excellent way of minimising the noise and inconvenience to the public as a whole.
  Then, of course, there is the question about spin-off benefits from the airport and the complex—and this is the point—to Kent. At the time I objected so strongly to Foulness I had no idea that it was intended that the complex at Maplin should include a deep-water port. In my view this must improve and increase the importance of the port of Rochester and will certainly bring benefit to the Medway towns, and I believe that if the port of Rochester is more used and developed other parts of Kent will benefit as well.
  I also think that it will help to improve communications between Essex and Kent, because I cannot believe that if this complex develops there will not be better communications—probably a bridge over the Thames connecting Kent and Essex, which will improve communications and facilities generally.
  Then we come to the airline objections. My right hon. and learned Friend really put the whole position in a nutshell when he made the point that BEA would have no objection if the airport were within 10 miles of London. In other words, BEA is looking at this, quite naturally from a narrow point of view, what will suit it best, and from the point of view of the customer. It does not look at it from the point of view of people who might be involved because of the siting of the airfield; it looks at it purely and simply from the point of view of economics—what will best suit the airline. It wanted an inland airport but perhaps it does not consider to the same extent as others the environmental upheaval that would be caused by the establishment of a big new internal airport.
  Surely the fact of the airport at Foulness being part of a complex that includes the newest, most up-to-date, modern deep-water seaport in Europe must also mean that it will create additional opportunities for the airlines. I believe that it will certainly have a considerable effect on the development of those airlines which use the airport for air-freighting which is bound to be generated there. We should not think only of the passenger use of aeroplanes, which I think we are inclined to do a little too much, perhaps

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  far too much, because I believe that the tremendous growth in the years ahead will be in air-freighting. I believe that this is inescapable, inevitable and an extremely good thing in increasing our export trade. The fact that the seaport and the airport are together will help to expand this very considerably. I repeat, therefore, that we must look at the proposal to site the third London airport at Foulness not in isolation—and I think we have been rather inclined to do that this afternoon—but rather as part of a great new complex that is essential to the air and maritime future of this country and, indeed, to its economic viability.
  No one, I feel sure, will deny that the days of the London Docks as a great terminal of shipborne trade are fast disappearing. Surely all would accept that Maplin, with its capability of taking ships of up to 500,000 tons, is the place for its resurrection. This new complex will not make huge demands on vast areas of agricultural land or require the destruction of homes and probably whole village communities as it would if it were sited inland. It will require 10,000 to 12,000 acres for the airport originally. It will require about 2,000 to 2,500 acres for the seaport. The total area for the complex ultimately will be about 16,000 acres, including that which is required for commercial establishments and residential areas. But the first requirement for the initial stages of the development of the airport will be 6,800 acres at the first stage, which is 1980 to 1985, and the remainder as needed. At worst the land for the airport will be existing saltings; the remainder will be land reclaimed from the sea, which could never justify, in my view, the cost of recovery for agricultural purposes, if indeed it could ever be desalinated to make it croppable for many years.
  Coastal airfields are not new. The bird problem is not new. There are coastal airfields throughout the world. Let us not exaggerate the situation at Maplin. There seems to be an impression that all the birds that now come to Maplin from time to time will come there after the conditions that have been suitable for them for many years have changed. Of course the establishment of the airfield, the port and the conurbation, including residences and the rest, will in many cases
  708
  destroy the bird habitats at Maplin. We must regret this; but when it comes to a question of whether it is better that birds should come there or that it should be used for the benefit of human beings, in order to ease the pressure upon them and promote the economy of the country, I am very sorry but I say reluctantly that human interests must take preference over that of the birds.
  Sir Bernard Braine: Foulness, although not Maplin, is in my constituency. The word is old English for "place of birds" and the birds have been there in vast quantities not for a few years but for tens of thousands of years, for aeons. I hope, therefore, that my hon. Friend will not make light of the problem.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I am told that that is the hon. Member's fourth intervention. I must ask for short, snappy speeches if the 20-odd speakers on that side and the many on the other side are to be called.
  Mr. Burden: I shall not answer that beyond saying that if that argument were accepted there would be no human progress anywhere.
  It is obvious that we must have communications for opening up this area. If we had an airport anywhere, the communications would be needed for that airport only; here they will be used for a complex which includes a great deep-water port, and this must surely be beneficial because, whatever hon. Gentlemen may say, it is necessary for us to have a deepwater port. And the road and rail connections will serve two great undertakings and not one only.
  Following your wishes, Mr. Speaker, I make this final point. The removal of the Port of London—and this is essential—will mean that considerable acres of land in London will be available for housing where it is very much needed and there will be a gross benefit and advantage. My right hon. and learned Friend pointed out that Stansted would possibly close down. That, too, would be a good thing, because it would release land internally, agricultural and residential land that is now taken up by an airfield. This too, I think, we should all applaud.
  Of course we are all greatly concerned to preserve the environment. I hope that

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  my right hon. and learned Friend will at every stage of this development consult all those who will be affected, including the Kent and Essex authorities, to ensure that throughout the development the environment is preserved so as to allow people to live a reasonable and decent life without the creation of new stresses and strains on their way of life. I shall go into the Lobby in favour of the Bill. I think that the Government had to make up their minds and were right to do so. I believe that on balance Foulness is the right place for the third London airport.
  6.30 p.m.
  Mr. Hugh Jenkins: I am afraid that I cannot be in fashion and change my mind. I have always been convinced, for good reasons, that there is great need for a third London airport. After looking carefully at the possibilities, I have always been of the view that of all the available sites for the sort of development necessary, Foulness is the best. That is still my view, and I must speak and act in the light of my conviction tonight. My reasons for reaching such a conclusion are too complex for me to develop in great detail now, but I will mention one or two.
  It has been implied that perhaps changes which have taken place in the last two years call into question the very need for a third London airport. It has not been spelled out but that is the suggestion. It is implied that the need is perhaps not so great now as it was and that with all the technological changes which have taken place we should delay a decision further, have yet another investigation and get all the facts placed before us again. No other subject can have been examined in so much detail already as this one has. If it needs still further examination, we could never come to a conclusion about anything. There comes a time when a Government, of whichever party, must reach a conclusion, and those of us who believe that conclusion to be correct have a duty to support it.
  Those of us representing constituencies which are overflown by aircraft using Heathrow see the need much more clearly than other people do. My right hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) says that the need for a third London airport will not really arise until
  710
  the 1980s. The question is: whose need? What need? Who determines whether the need is there or not? The people of London who are being overflown know that the need has been there for a long time. The need was recognised by the Wilson Committee as long ago as 1963. It examined in detail the whole question of noise, and in paragraph 306 of its report said about airport noise:
  "we are agreed that the noise to which many people near London (Heathrow) Airport are subjected is more than they can reasonably be expected to tolerate."
  That was in 1963. The figures which the committee worked on were of movements totalling 145,000 in 1962. Jet movements—and jet aircraft are the chief source of noise—totalled 52,000. The Wilson Committee in 1963 thought that the noice then was intolerable for the people of London.
  What is the position now? Last year, the number of movements had increased from the 1963 figure to 273,490, which means that they are moving towards the half million mark which we are told would be reached by the 1980s. The figures support that forecast. There was an increase in 1972 of over 2 per cent. over the 1971 figures, which admittedly is a fairly low increase. However, the increase in freight aircraft movements is rapid, so much so that an attempt to reduce the movements at Heathrow proved abortive. The Secretary of State of the day announced a total ban on night flights. Hitherto, there had been a limitation to 3,500. What happened? There were 4,500 night flights. That was the result of a total ban.
  The pressure is so great on Heathrow that safety considerations are beginning to be overridden. It is a question of the safety not only of those in the air but of those on the ground as well. Those of us with constituents in the area have a duty to draw the attention of the House and of my right hon. Friend to this factor.
  The terms of reference of the Roskill Commission—I am sure that my right hon. Friend would agree with this—related to the timing of the need for a third London airport. The need has been accepted not only by the Wilson Committee in 1963 but in the Labour Government's White Paper of 1967. It was

  711
  established in that White Paper beyond reasonable doubt that the need existed. Even if the situation had not deteriorated still further, even if it did not now deteriorate further, as many of us believe it will, even if the situation from the point of view of overflying had remained static, there would still be great need for the construction of a third London airport.
  I believe that it should have been done 10 years ago. The third London airport should be in existence now, if we take into consideration not only the overflown population but the needs of the people who want to come here from abroad and the movement of goods in and out of the country. The need is there. It is useless to suggest that there is a case for yet another committee to examine the position. Everyone who lives near Heathrow knows that there is a need.
  There have been at Heathrow a number of near misses in recent years. I fear that unless some action is taken to relieve Heathrow from the number of landings taking place in the summer months, inevitably at some stage one of these near misses will not be a miss at all. The pressure on Heathrow must be reduced. The inferno of noise in summer is so great that it is not only people who are disturbed in their homes. Hospitals and schools cannot function properly in some parts of the glide path area.
  There was a letter in The Times recently which I thought made a very good point. It was a Councillor Mrs. Jenkins of the Greater London Council. [Laughter.] I did not know that the letter was going to be in The Times but I found myself warmly in agreement with it—I had better be, perhaps. Mrs. Jenkins said:
  "Present rumblings indicate that the tolerance of over-flown Londoners, should their environment be assaulted yet more drastically, will one day give way and there will be a revolt on the part of this particular silent majority."
  Londoners on the whole have been very long-suffering indeed. We often hear pleas on behalf of those who are to be afflicted with noise, people who have not yet got it. What about the suffering already being endured? We have a responsibility to relieve that.
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  My right hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby, having assumed the need for a third London airport—an assumption which I suggest is fully justified by the facts—simply asked Roskill to tell him at which site it ought to be. My right hon. Friend has since seemed to criticise Roskill for not going outside his terms of reference.
  My right hon. Friend has given the reasons why he changed his mind about the question of urgency. He seemed to think that the rest of us would change our minds with him. But I have been trying to tell the House why I feel unable to do that. But as my right hon. Friend recedes from office he gets more and more carefree. On 4th March 1971 he was rather near responsibility. He said when quoting the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution:
  "large numbers of the British public have reached the limits of their tolerance, and demand that they should be protected from this sort of disturbance, especially noise from aircraft and traffic."
  He also said:
  "I believe that, if anything, that is an understatement."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 4th March 1971; Vol. 812, c. 1926.]
  So he was certainly with us then.
  But it is not sufficient to be with us in theory. One has to be with us in practice. One has to recognise that one cannot talk about the need for a third London airport and then say that the need is not proved. If one has a serious concern about noise, that must be one of the factors to be taken into consideration in assessing the need. Therefore, I say to my right hon. Friend that, on the one hand, one cannot say that one recognises the need for a third London airport and then, on the other hand, say that that need will not arise until 1980. The need is either there or not there. I believe that the evidence is that it is there now. Those are some of the factors which have led me to the conclusion that the Bill must be supported.
  Having said that, however, I notice, with some relief, that the Bill has a Title which will enable very substantial amendments to be made in Committee without infringing that Title. Some hon. Members on the Government benches may care to note that. In its Title the Bill does not even say that it sets up the Maplin

  713
  authority. It simply provides for the reclamation from the sea of certain land. It does not say how, or anything else. Therefore, those of us who are in principle in favour of a third London airport being built at Maplin but have grave doubts about some aspects of the Bill will be able to vote for Second Reading and attempt to emasculate in Committee some of the parts of the Bill which we dislike.
  Therefore, I do not wish to elaborate on these points now. If I were to do that, Mr. Speaker, I should strain your patience. I leave the matter there. It is perfectly possible to vote for Second Reading and to attempt to remove objectionable parts of the Bill in Committee or later—that is, for those hon. Members who become members of the Committee, and not necessarily myself.
  Those are a few, and only a few, of the points I was going to make. I shall now shed one or two other extremely good points I would have made.
  Mr. Speaker: Order. I am sure that the hon. Member will not mind my saying that he has now been speaking for 12 minutes.
  Mr. Jenkins: That is precisely why, Mr. Speaker, I am having to shed my notes and to say that I have over-strained my ration by two minutes. I hope that you, Mr. Speaker, will allow me half a minute to shed my points gracefully and decently. They were points which the House will be sad to have missed.
  Finally, in my view there should have been a free vote on this issue. Unhappily, there is not. But my long-stated position makes it necessary for me to free myself. I regret doing that as I am a great believer in the party system, and, whenever I can, I like to support my party. However, there are occasions when one cannot, and it is the strength of our party system that on those occasions one must do.
  6.34 p.m.
  Sir Bernard Braine: Like my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Sir S. McAdden), who made such an excellent speech earlier in the debate, I find it ironic that so many hon. Members are now expressing doubts
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  about the wisdom of siting the third London airport at Foulness, or even having a third London airport at all, nearly two years after the weight of opinion in both Houses of Parliament caused the Government to reject Roskill's recommendation of an inland site, to opt for a coastal site and so to choose Foulness.
  I can recall saying in the debate on 4th March 1971 that if it were right to choose a coastal site, Foulness was not the best place and that, situated as it was at the end of a narrow peninsula bounded by the Thames and the Crouch, where ovet 310,000 people have their homes, it would present serious planning difficulties unless the most careful controls were used, would put an intolerable strain upon my constituents. Neither my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East nor I received any sympathy or support at that time.
  I can recall saying, too, that if Roskill had come up with the wrong answers, it was because the Commission had been given the wrong terms of reference, namely, to inquire into the need for the timing of a four-runway airport.
  The commission then put the cart before the horse. It started to examine four-runway sites in advance of considering the timing. Any proper examination of the timing would have revealed that the third runway would not be required at least until 1990 and the fourth runway would not be required, if at all, until after the year 2000. My conclusion in 1971 was that on that basis no decision need be made until a clear national policy for airports had been evolved; there was need for deeper study. That plea was ignored.
  I also remember suggesting to the Government that they should have a look at Dungeness. I made that suggestion because I had made a careful reconnaissance and knew in advance that the British Airports Authority which did not want to go to Foulness, would have accepted a two-runway airport at Dungeness. That suggestion was met with a deafening silence.
  Because of the terms of reference, the Roskill Comission looked at 78 potential four-runway sites, and after a few months rejected 74 of them. It then spent two years looking at four sites, only one of which was a coastal site.
  Mr. Crosland: Just to get the matter about the terms of reference for Roskill out of the way, as I was responsible for them, they began by saying
  "to consider the timing of the need for a four-runway London airport."
  In a supplementary question on the day I made that announcement, I was asked whether Roskill could find that there was no need for a four-runway airport, to which I replied, "Yes".
  Sir Bernard Braine: Yes, indeed, but Roskill did not so find. I am not blaming anyone. I am stating the facts.
  So it was because of the pressure from the majority in both Houses that the Government decided—rightly on environmental grounds—to reject the inland site, and they were driven remorselessly and wrongly in my opinion, to accept the only coastal site anyone had looked at in any depth.
  A cynic might observe that this is often how history is made. After long delays a sort of decision is arrived at, and those who take it press on, regardless of whether a better decision might have been made, for fear of lengthening the delay still further, hoping that in the end it will work out all right.
  The whole question turns, therefore, on whether there is still a need today, in 1973, for a four-runway airport located within, say, 80 miles of London, and whether this need must be met without further delay.
  I concede that if the Government can show convincingly that there is such a need, whatever changes in aircraft technology have taken place or may lie ahead, and that this will not inhibit the development of a coherent airports strategy for the country as a whole—in short, that it is in the national interest to go to Foulness or Maplin as the Government now prefer to call it—they should get the Bill.
  So be it. But my own position is unchanged. If the project is held to be in the national interest, with all the upheaval and discomfort that this must mean for my constituents and those of my hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East, we are surely entitled to ask that the nation meets the cost both of cushioning the impact on our environment and of ensuring that no extra burden falls on
  716
  our local ratepayers at any stage of the enterprise.
  I represent one of the largest and fastest growing constituencies in the land. Even without Maplin, South-East Essex would grow. Our environment is under assault already from many directions. I should like to give two illustrations. We already have too many oil refineries too close to residential population for health and safety. The Government have already authorised one oil company to build a refinery on Canvey Island at one end of my constituency where over 28,000 of my constituents have their homes, with a further 49,000 in neighbouring Benfleet, despite vigorous local opposition. They are currently examining an application from another oil company to establish a second refinery on Canvey Island. The vast majority of my constituents, the local authorities and I are completely opposed to this sort of development close to residential areas. We are waiting to see whether my right hon. and learned Friend cares for our environment.
  Then again, our main trunk roads are inadequate to handle existing traffic, let alone that which the construction of an airport/seaport complex at Maplin must engender. It is true that my right hon. and learned Friend agrees that improvements are necessary, but at one bottleneck at Rayleigh his officers are proposing a flyover which will ruin the homes and peace of mind of scores of my constituents. At a recent public inquiry the local authority pressed for an underpass in order to minimise the nuisance. Here again we are waiting to see whether my right hon. and learned Friend wants these road improvements on the cheap or whether he really cares for the environment.
  These two examples are not irrelevant to what I have to say about the Bill. The new airport/seaport complex is to be linked to London by a new motorway which must of necessity cut through the narrow and crowded South-East Essex peninsula bounded by the Thames and the Crouch. Thousands of my constituents are waiting with apprehension to learn where the line of route will run. Over and over again I have said that it must go north of existing or proposed urban development. Perhaps in the end it will, yet we have this Bill before us before any

  717
  firm assurance on that score can be given to my constituents. While such anxieties are unresolved I cannot support the Bill.
  There are many such anxieties. Thus, before Parliament has given any approval to the project, the Port of London Authority is telling us that its proposed seaport will enable it to handle 500,000-ton oil tankers. For what purpose? Is it to supply an ever-growing number of oil refineries in the Thames Estuary? What follows if there is to be no limit to these installations? My right hon. and learned Friend this afternoon ruled out primary industry at Maplin itself. There is to be no petrochemical complex, no ore-treatment plant, no steelworks. But my right hon. and learned Friend confirmed that the Government are going to reclaim a much larger area than was originally intended. In Clause 2(5) the Bill gives them the powers. That is a breach of the understanding for which we in Essex have pressed all along, namely that industrial development will not be permitted because, apart from the implications for regional policy, it will add to the congestion of the South-East Essex hinterland.
  The Bill authorises massive public expenditure on the reclamation of land from the sea but nowhere does it mention the amount of land to be reclaimed. What guarantee have we in South-East Essex that land will not be reclaimed for purposes other than an airport/seaport? What has been said this afternoon confirms our fears.
  I have spoken of the problem of communications. My understanding is that the Government do not intend to provide a new motorway in advance of opening the seaport and only just before the first runway becomes operational. That simply is not good enough. Ministers have minimised the problem when replying to representations which my hon. Friend and I have made on the subject. They have argued that the extra traffic engendered by the construction of the airport/seaport will all be carried by sea or rail. Do they really believe that? It is imperative that our overloaded road system should be supplemented by a new motorway as soon as possible.
  I come now to something of a more human character. Inevitably the Maplin project will not only change the face of my constituency but will affect the lives
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  of my constituents in diverse ways. For some the prospect is bleak. The project is likely to lead to the complete uprooting of the Foulness Island community. It has not been said before in this place, but Foulness is not the bleak, desolate waste which the media have tried to portray. The land there is vastly more productive than the land at Cublington. One Foulness farmer, Mr. Percy Belton, recently won first prize in the world championship for milled wheat and received his award at the Toronto World Fair. Unfortunately all the islanders, including these superb farmers, are tenants, and as matters stand compensation would be quite inadequate to enable them to set up similar businesses anywhere else in the country. What is to be done about these people?
  I am referred to the Land Compensation Bill, but that Bill does not meet their particular circumstances. I therefore ask for specific assurances that special and generous provision will be made for the Foulness islanders as and when they are required to leave their homes. One could go on. According to the Bill our fishermen will be compensated for loss of livelihood where this was carried on in an area of reclamation. But what about those who fish in the dredged channels and deepened areas? The Bill does not cover them. Indeed, as my hon. Friend said, there are many such questions to which the Bill does not provide answers. It is remarkable not for what it contains but for what it does not contain.
  Just before Christmas, the Essex County Council and the Essex River Authority were so concerned that they were preparing to petition against the Bill at an appropriate stage. I understand however, that in the last week or two, very late in the day, both those authorities have withdrawn their objections as a result of concessions, assurances and undertakings given by Ministers. What are those assurances and why have they not been written into the Bill? We are entitled to know. These are not idle questions. They touch on the interests, livelihood and safety of large numbers of the people I represent.
  Clause 17, for example, provides that the liability of the proposed development authority for any damage done or for additional expenses or liabilities incurred

  719
  as a result of siltation, scouring or alteration of the tidal flow shall be limited to a period of 10 years from the completion of the reclamation. I wonder how many hon. Members have read those words and understood what they could mean for Essex ratepayers. Current hydrological knowledge suggests that there is no danger in respect of flooding or weakening of sea defences. If so, why is this provision in the Bill? If, however, that knowledge is imperfect and if it were found after 10 years that the reclamation, which is to be on a very large scale, caused the tides in the rivers Crouch, Roach and even the Thames to rise higher than expected, resulting in a need to raise the level of the river walls, the cost would fall on our local ratepayers under the coast protection provisions. That would be grossly unfair and is totally unacceptable to our people.
  From the beginning of the Maplin project I have warned over and over again that we are peculiarly sensitive to flooding problems in South-East Essex. The twentieth anniversary of the East Coast flood disaster took place only a few days ago. Both Foulness Island at one end of my constituency and Canvey Island at the other were both completely inundated and people lost their lives. Consequently we do not take these matters lightly. My right hon. and learned Friend did not go into detail about representation on the new authority when he spoke this afternoon. There is nothing in the Bill about this but if my right hon. and learned Friend wishes to underpin local confidence not only the new regional water authority but the Essex County Council, and possibly the Rochford Rural District Council, should certainly be represented on the Maplin Development Authority.
  I have thought carefully about my position in regard to the Bill. Many of my constituents are opposed to the Maplin project and this is understandable. A great many others are not opposed to it and think that on balance it could bring great benefits. It may well do so. I have never closed my mind to the possibility of a Maplin development, properly controlled from the beginning, bringing substantial benefits in a decade or so to the people of South-East Essex. But before I give my consent to the Bill I want to
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  be assured that the benefits will not be bought at too high a price, both environmentally and financially, for my constituents.
  The only expert investigation into the scheme so far was carried out by the Roskill Commission. It said:
  "13.44 Our conclusion may be expressed in this way. A third London airport must be able to succeed as an airport. To this end, it must meet the needs of those whom it is designed to serve. But an airport can succeed as an airport and yet fail in some wider social purpose…. An airport cannot serve any social purpose unless it first succeeds as an airport…. Neither in regional planning terms nor in environmental terms can be ailing airport attain the desired results. … We cannot therefore be confident that the advantage claimed for Foulness will be achieved with that degree of certainty which justifies its recommendation. It is in every sense a relatively expensive project with relatively uncertain prospects of success."
  Those words are a warning to the House and to the nation as a whole. But think of the consequences for my constituents. They are the people who will bear the brunt of anything that goes wrong. I am still waiting to hear what has happened since the Roskill Report to make the Government confident that the commission's objections to Foulness are invalid.
  My conclusion is, therefore, that nothing will be lost by asking the CAA to reappraise the project in the light of the latest information about airport needs. If that reappraisal endorses the Government's view, that will be the end of the matter for most of us and the Government will get the credit for having paused for reflection. But for me it will mean that I must continue to press for safeguards for my constituents. I do not see them in the Bill. For that reason I shall vote against it.
  6.53 p.m.
  Mr. David Steel: I must say at the outset that my colleagues and I intend to support the Opposition amendment for the reason admirably encapsulated in the conclusion of the hon. Gentleman's speech. We believe that postponement at this stage would be the right course.
  In the Concise Oxford Dictionary "foulness" is described as "disgusting wickedness", and I cannot help but think that it is a very apt description and possibly one of the reasons why the Government have adopted the preferential

  721
  name of Maplin. We have all been looking back at what was said in the debate on 4th March 1971. I said:
  "Our conclusion is that if there is to be a new third airport in the South-East region it should be at a coastal site, either Foulness or…some other site."—[OFFICIAL REPORT 4th March 1971; Vol. 812, c 1959.]
  I then went on in the next paragraph to turn to the important word "if". I devoted the rest of my speech to a consideration of whether we needed a third London airport. I am delighted that in the debate today so many hon. Members have come to question that fundamental issue rather than debate the merits and demerits of individual sites on the assumption that a four-runway airport is needed in the London area.
  I wish to repeat one or two of the things I said on that occasion in the light of new events. It is a tragedy that we have not had a comprehensive national airports policy. The effects of this are seen not only in the South-East but in Scotland. Prestwick, an under-used international airport, is not linked to the domestic network. Some years ago Abbotsinch Airport was built nearby. Last week came the announcement of a major new development at Turnhouse which will result in yet more massive expenditure on an airport centre when it would have made sense both for Scotland and for the United Kingdom as a whole to have had one major international and domestic airport situated about mid-way between Edinburgh and Glasgow. Such an airport would have been used.
  I could not understand the reasoning by the right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) who argued that unless we provided more airport capacity in the London area we should quickly lose valuable air traffic to the Continent, and yet in the immediately preceding sentence he was arguing that no one would use an international airport in the North. That is a nonsense. Even with its limitations Prestwick is now providing daily services to 44 capitals in the world and is bringing to the surrounding area new industry, sometimes of an international nature, which is concerned only to be near the international air communications network and which is only too anxious to come to areas which have an attractive
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  environment and none of the problems of South-East England.
  I would have been happier about the Bill if it had been set in the context of decision by the Government about a national airports policy. It is doubtful whether it is wise from the aviation point of view to have a third London airport. I am one of those many Members who commute regularly by aeroplane every week and I know that on occasions adverse weather conditions can close both Heathrow and Gatwick at the same time, causing total chaos not only to the domestic air network but to the international network as well. To have a third airport in the same weather region seems madness. There should be greater development of international airport facilities elsewhere in the country.
  Mr. Ronald Bell Mr. Ronald Bell (Buckinghamshire, South)rose——
  Mr. Steel: I am anxious to make a brief speech, and I hope that the hon. and learned Gentleman will forgive me if I do not give way.
  The other factor which has changed considerably since our debate in 1971 is the development and use of wide-bodied aircraft. There is no doubt that the accelerated programme for the introduction of these aircraft is enabling the passenger flow to take place at about two or three times the present rate. As the Civil Aviation Authority is only today beginning to work out what this means in terms of passenger requirements for the future, it seems one of the greatest single reasons why the Government should postpone the introduction of the Bill and allow reconsideration to take place. Development of these aircraft with their greater capacity and quieter engines places a completely new weight of argument on the side of those who have asserted that there is no proven need for a new airport of this size in the London area.
  I mentioned in my speech in 1971 the future development of high-speed land communications, including the advanced passenger train and the hovertrain. Only the other day I saw that British Rail and Tracked Hovercraft Limited were in consultation on this very matter. I predict that in about 10 years' time when the advanced passenger train is operating there will be a tremendous reduction in

  723
  domestic aircraft flights. Naturally, it will be more attractive—certainly in England, although I leave the Scottish situation aside—to travel on high-speed trains from city centre to city centre rather than to use airacraft. Therefore, there will be a reduction in demand for domestic aircraft movements.
  Finally, I believe that we should consider this issue not only as some hon. Members have rightly done, as a major local problem affecting their constituents, but as a national question because we shall be devoting considerable national resources to the project. Other parts of the country are crying out for major public investment and they are not getting it. Hon. Members remarked in the public expenditure debate only this week how important it was to order priorities in public investment. Do we consider that this project is a priority in an over-heated part of the country's economy, requiring the pumping in of £825 million by 1990? It is investment in an already affluent part of the country. As the hon. Member for Southend, East (Sir S. McAdden) said, at a time when we have dispatched Mr. George Thomson to Brussels to try to sort out a sensible European regional policy it is incumbent upon us to get our priorities right in regional development first, and help those parts of the country which are crying out for investment, employment and the development of communications of this kind. I look back at what happened in the Concorde debate. We now know that the Concorde project has cost us about £1,000 million.
  Mr. Crouch: £500 million.
  Mr. Steel: The total combined French and British costs have been £1,000 million, and this country's share £500 million.
  If we look back to 21st December 1962 when the matter was debated, we find the estimate for a development cost then given in the House was about £75 or £85 million. There has been a tremendous escalation in costs since then. I fear we shall be making the same mistake here.
  I think this is a public expenditure mistake, a communications blunder and
  724
  an environmental disaster. Above all, I think it is a regional planning catastrophe, and it ought to be withdrawn.
  7.0 p.m.
  Mr. Toby Jessel: The hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. David Steel) said that no new airport was needed for London. I wish he had been able to show rather more concern for the 2 million people who live within earshot of London Airport and suffer from the noise from the aircraft, and also for many more people who live within earshot of Heathrow and Gatwick. He spoke of the costs of the Maplin project, as have other hon. Members speaking in the debate. I believe we have had far too little talk of the social costs in terms of the suffering involved from aircraft noise round the existing airports.
  Aircraft noise causes a tremendous amount of suffering to people in all sorts of circumstances—in their houses, in their gardens, in schools and in hospitals. It is a tremendous burden on a great many people, and some people actually fall ill as a result of it. I regard it as a major social evil that we should do everything in our power to mitigate.
  I believe that includes the sensible suggestion of having a major airport for London on the coast, because then, and only then, not only can all night flights be routed through the airport—there has already been a reduction in the number of night jet take-offs from Heathrow, but I do not see how that can be sustained permanently in future unless we have a third airport—but I believe all the noisiest aircraft ought to be routed compulsorily through an airport by the sea where they can take off and land over the sea instead of over residential areas. By compelling the noisiest aircraft to use the coastal airport we can make sure that only the quieter ones are allowed to use Heathrow.
  As we have heard in the debate, a number of quieter types of aircraft are coming into use. I believe we should, by the use of controls, give the airlines and the aircraft manufacturers incentives to produce and to use these quieter types of aircraft.
  I very much hope the House will support the Government and stand firm, as did the great majority of hon. Members who spoke on 4th March 1971. On that

  725
  day not only did the overwhelming majority of hon. Members acknowledge the need for a third London airport, but they recognised that it should be on the coast and sited at what is now known as Maplin.
  7.03 p.m.
  Mr. J. P. W. Mallalieu: Like the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Jessel), the two hon. Members whose constituents are particularly affected by the Bill are worried at the amount of noise that their own constituents suffer from aircraft.
  I was very much impressed by the environmental arguments that the hon. Member for Essex, South-East (Sir Bernard Braine) put forward, but he did not mention one environmental worry that I would have were I in his shoes.
  If the Bill goes through—and I am opposed to it—there will be a tremendous amount of infilling in the Foulness area. I would be worried where the contractors would get that infilling from, because I suspect that unless something is done they will be allowed to go in for borrow pits near at hand. As a result the constituency of the hon. Member for Essex, South-East will be desecrated not only by this wretched airport but by the contractors getting stuff to fill in the sea.
  Would the Minister consider making a general direction about the filling that is used? We have pit heaps all over the country. If the Minister would specify that the infilling was to be pit heaps and not borrow pits the Government would save money because they would not have to give grants for landscaping. If borrow pits were used, the amenities of the country would to that extent be diminished. Two hundred million tons out of the borrow pits of this country into the sea would be needed to reclaim the land.
  Mr. Ronald Bell: Is the hon. Member for Huddersfield, East (Mr. J. P. W. Mallalieu) aware that the Thames Estuary is the biggest, if not the second biggest, source of sea-won gravel in the whole country. Indeed, this would be a very well-balanced operation.
  Mr. Mallalieu: There are various sources from which filling could come, and it is most desirable to use pit heaps, but what should not be used is borrow
  726
  tips involving exacavation from existing land.
  The hon. Member for Southend, East (Sir S. McAdden)—and Southend is a jolly good airport—mentioned another possible snag about Maplin, namely, the Shoeburyness Range, but he did not mention that the range has been used for a very long time. Many projectiles have been fired there and not all of them have exploded. We are all worried about birdstrikes, but if part of this range is to be excavated or dealt with in any way in this development the contractors digging round the excavators will have an extremely interesting time. We must have an assurance from the Minister that this site has been thoroughly and properly cleared.
  Finally, I beg for another examination. I am not, God help me, asking for a further public inquiry about what is the right site. Those inquiries have become a public bore, like Mr. Ross McWhirter or Lord Shawcross. We want to more of it. They simply mean that the squirearchy is mobilised, there is a tremendous row and then the Government of the day make their decision on the basis of perceived noise decibels. The loudest clamour is exempted and the poor area that for one reason or another can make only a little squeak has the airport imposed on it. The inquiry should rather be into the question of whether there is a need.
  All the traffic arguments in favour of that have already been rehearsed. We do not know really what the traffic will be like. The Minister in opening the debate brushed aside the various developments in short take-off and landing. Five years ago those developments looked extremely promising. If they are not so promising today—and I do not believe that—I would like to know why. Is it that these projects in which we had a world lead are not being pressed with sufficient energy by the Government of the day?
  The hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. David Steel) mentioned the hovertrain. I am horrified to hear rumours that the Government may decide not to go ahead with that.
  Insufficient drive is being shown by the Government and industry in the development of VTOL and STOL aircraft. These aircraft would have a considerable effect

  727
  on the traffic densities of existing airports. The same applies to quiet engines. Any engine manufacturer who is able to produce not the quieter engine, which is the RB211, but the stage beyond that, the quiet engine, will scoop the world. If instead of spending all this money, the initial £1,000 million, upon this airport, a fraction of that amount were spent upon research into and development of the quiet engine the Government would be doing a very much better job.
  For these reasons and other reasons that have already been advanced, I beg the Government to look again and to set up an inquiry, not necessarily by the CAA. I do not see why the House of Commons should not do it. Eventually, we have to make the decision; let us get our own facts for a change.
  7.11 p.m.
  Mr. Stephen Hastings: I have listened carefully to what the hon. Member for Huddersfield, East (Mr. J. P. W. Mallalieu) said. I do not agree with very much of it. He is labouring under a misconception about the way in which the reclamation work will be done. The port will be dug out and all the sand and gravel from that will be dumped to reclaim the airport. There will be no question of importing vast amounts of gravel and sand through Essex. The hon. Gentleman has a point on the difficulty of clearing the range. No one suggests that this enormous development can be done without difficulty, and the hon. Gentleman was right to raise that point.
  From reading what has been said in the newspapers in the last day or two on this subject, and from listening to some of the speeches this afternoon, one might conclude that the Government had leapt into this decision almost overnight as an act of capricious frivolity. But what are the facts? The need for this airport was identified first in 1953 in Cmnd. 8902. In 1960 the Estimates Committee recommended a study of Stansted. In 1964 there was the Stansted decision by an interdepartmental committee. In 1966 there was Cmnd. 3259 recommending Stansted. In 1968 the Roskill inquiry was set up—to his great credit the right hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) was responsible for that—and in 1970 Roskill reported. After 20 years, not a square
  728
  yard of runway. During that period the French have built their second and nearly completed their third Paris airport. Incidentally, the French are also busy designing four major airports in the Soviet Union. They are the recognised experts in Europe—not us. But here, not one square yard—just talk, talk, talk.
  As far as I am able to interpret them, the arguments against Maplin are these. First there is the environmental argument, which is the oddest of all when one looks at the debates since Roskill and remembers the tremendous minority report by Professor Buchanan, who is, after all, about our best-known planner and who took his minority decision for Maplin bravely, for environmental reasons, and who was widely praised for it in the country as a whole. Maplin is a balanced decision. It was not the choice of the aviation interests. Of course surface access produces environmental problems, but so would surface access to any other new airport wherever it was situated.
  Let me deal briefly with bird strike. There are two aspects about birds, the safety one and the environmental one. On the environmental aspect, there are the visiting birds and the residents, the latter being gulls and the most important category in the former being geese. The opinion of the Infestation Control Laboratory of the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food which reported on this for Roskill was that the geese would go away once the eel grass was covered up. The laboratory spent a long time studying this. To my own knowledge, on the Cliffe Marshes in the estuary, which I know quite well, there is a flock of about 1,000 whitefront geese who breed in Russia and come to the European coasts in winter. They have moved in here from the Dutch coast steadily over the last 10 years because of reclamation work there. That is a solid example of the way in which birds will move if disturbed in this way. As for the residents, the gulls, they are mainly scavengers and the answer is to keep the airport clean if possible, and there is no reason why it should not be.
  As to safety, it is worth briefly quoting paragraph 8/42 of the Roskill Report:
  "Our conclusion is that Foulness does carry a greater potential risk than the inland sites

  729
  for those on board aircraft although it involves a lesser potential risk for those on the ground. The size of the difference in risk is not great. However much we abhor the prospect of disaster the evidence does not suggest that we should be justified in allowing this Foulness disadvantage to exert a major influence on our choice of site."
  That is not to be disregarded or discarded lightly.
  The second argument is need. Does the need exist? Two years ago every serious authority was convinced that it did. Have matters changed? I will not rehearse the arguments which we have heard several times already. Of course we do not need the airport if we are prepared to allow the unlimited growth of existing airports. That is the inescapable implication of the Opposition amendment, the first part of which, implying that the Leader of the Opposition and his hon. Friends care so much for those living around airports, is specious to a degree.
  I would remind the House of Motion No. 208 which was tabled in my name and the names of more than 220 right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House, on 18th December 1970, as follows:
  "This House, while recognising the need for a third London airport, is totally opposed to the choice of any inland site or of the extension of any existing airport for this purpose; and strongly advocates the selection of Foulness or any other suitable coastal site."
  During the two years in which our Committee, comprising hon. Members on both sides of the House, studied this question we were more than impressed with the representations made by the resistance organisations from Gatwick, Heathrow, Luton and elsewhere. I am told by the British Airports Authority that if the development of these airports is held up as a result of Maplin going ahead, the aircraft movements and throughput of passengers at Maplin will be bigger than at present at Heathrow by the mid-1980s. If we do not go ahead with Maplin, where will all that traffic go? Various answers have been produced by hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition benches. The right hon. Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) wants another runway here and another runway there at Stansted. Does he suppose that this can be done without all the infrastructure involved and without making
  730
  the situation vastly worse than it is today?
  The third argument concerns the overheating of the economy in the South East and the development of an airport in the regions rather than here. As my right hon. and learned Friend said, 85 per cent. of the passengers who will use this airport go to or come from London. More than half of them are visitors from abroad. That pattern cannot be denied. To send those passengers to the Midlands or further is impracticable. We are concerned with the need for a London airport, and we cannot overlook that.
  That is not to say that there is no problem with regard to an airports policy generally. There is a great need for this, and I hope that the Government will pay attention to it. The Midlands in particular is in a considerable muddle. But the figures show that to be a separate matter. What we are concerned with and the matter on which we shall go into the Lobbies tonight is the third London airport.
  On the question of wide-bodied jets and VTOL and STOL, Roskill said:
  "Our conclusion from the evidence is that we cannot base our recommendation on assumptions that STOL and VTOL will bring about an absolute reduction in pressure on conventional airport capacity until the end of the next decade at the earliest."
  It would be nice to give Hawker Siddeley £500 million for VTO. Nobody said this afternoon how much the right hon. Member for Grimsby would hand over to Hawker Siddeley for this purpose. But we still have to cope with this increased traffic meanwhile. The right hon. Gentleman wants another inquiry. How long is the study of VTO to go on before he makes up his mind? I have been connected with the aviation industry for a long time and I know that that sort of prediction is about as certain as picking the first three in the Gold Cup. I do not think it can be advanced now as a serious argument.
  Mr. Russell Kerr: Does not the hon. Gentleman agree that if the wide-bodied aircraft continues to be introduced internationally at the present rate, he has the answer to the question?
  Mr. Hastings: It does not pay to give way too much in these circumstances.

  731
  The hon. Gentleman is right. It is perfectly true and well known that there is a trend towards wide-bodied aircraft and that they make for an increased traffic flow and will continue to do so. But that does not solve the problem because, apart from the arguments of my right hon. and learned Friend earlier, the same number of passengers or more—and we know it will be more—will arrive at our airports. They have to be processed through and surface access will have to be improved.
  Mr. Russell Kerr: That is a different argument.
  Mr. Hastings: It is not a different argument; it is precisely the same argument. More passengers will arrive and, alas, as there is no serious possibility of improving surface access to existing London airports, they will be jammed, wide-bodied jets or no.
  On the question of cost, figures have been repeated by my right hon. and learned Friend but I would like to put one point to the House. To hear some people talk one would think that this £1,000 million, or whatever it is, is a total write-off. In fact there is only one component among the four which I would cite as the airport, the seaport, the rail and motorway and, last, the buildings, homes, houses and factories. Of these there is only one element which is non-revenue-raising and that is the motorway, unless we want to put a toll on it. All the others will produce revenue. The airport will pay. Heathrow pays handsomely; in fact many airlines think it makes too much money.
  Mr. Adley: It is much nearer London.
  Mr. Hastings: So if aircraft are to fly in to Maplin they will have to pay. The seaport will not only make money but should vastly improve our export facilities and, with a deeper port, render our exports cheaper. The railway will pay—[Interruption.] An hon. Gentleman has doubts, but it is assumed that at least the railway will try to make a profit from trains to Foulness. People living in the houses and firms concerned with the factories will either pay rent or buy. There is no question of this money being written off. I reject these arguments for the reasons I have tried briefly to give this afternoon.
  732
  If, however, the arguments were accepted by the House, if this afternoon the House rejects the Maplin project, that is not to say that there would be any unanimity among those who oppose the Bill, because there is not. There are numbers and numbers of different solutions, alternatives and suggestions. We know well that the right hon. Member for Grimsby wants two runways, though we do not know where, in any one of 12 or so places. My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Adley) wants, or wanted, Severnside. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Mr. Tilney) wanted it at Liverpool. My hon. Friend the Member for Stretford (Mr. Churchill) wanted it at Manchester, I think. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Darling) wanted the airport at a place called Thorne Waste, somewhere in the West Riding—a sad place it sounded and I hope something can be done about it. But not one of these places was on the first 29 listed by Roskill. Nevertheless they are all advocated in this House.
  If the Government are defeated on this, no serious alternative whatsoever will be established as a result of this debate and the weary search will simply be renewed—which is what the right hon. Gentleman wants—without any time limit. Presumably, therefore, another solution will be brought forward in due course and again we shall hear about what everyone wants and again it may be thrown out. We shall talk and talk and meanwhile the problem and the suffering increases. That is what our Committee was concerned about two years ago.
  One last matter. Let us hear no more, if I may make so bold as to ask this, of the criticisms of some hon. Members, and outside this place as well, that those of us who strongly resisted the choice of an inland site two years ago did so without thought to the solution and that we were perfectly happy provided we could solve our own problem by letting the thing be dumped, so to speak, at Foulness. I believe the House will accept that I would not have advocated as consistently as I have over the years what I advocate now, the Maplin solution, unless I were absolutely convinced of its importance to the nation as a whole. In October

  733
  1970 I took the chair at a two-day conference of the Productivity Council concerned with the deep-water port alone. The arguments there ought to be enough to convince one that something has to be done on reclamation in the Thames Estuary if we are to compete any longer in the world as a sea trading nation. The Maplin development could transform our flagging economy. I believe that it is as important as that. It could make us again a world centre of communications and of physical trade, as we used to be.
  Finally, a word about land reclamation. It is well known that we are now losing 60,000 acres of land a year to development. We are a small island. I hear nothing but demands over and over again that more land must be made available. Where will it end? What is wrong with at least trying to reclaim land from the sea? There exists a scheme—there may be more—for the reclamation not only of areas with which we are concerned this afternoon but of the whole of the Thames Estuary—the equivalent of a new county.
  I say quite seriously that I would like to see a Ministry or a Department of Land Reclamation. The fact that the land is to be won from the sea for this project is something that seems to have been forgotten this afternoon, because it has been little mentioned.
  It seems to me that that is one of the main merits of the scheme as a whole. Of course the problems are considerable. I have every sympathy with the case so ably and strongly made by my hon. Friend the Member for Essex, South-East (Sir Bernard Braine) with regard to the problems of his constituents but I have no doubt this is the best solution for the nation. I think it is a vast opportunity and that it would be crazy to miss it. If it is rejected now, it will reflect no discredit whatsoever on the Government but it will make the House of Commons look both irresponsible and ridiculous.
  7.25 p.m.
  Mr. Dick Leonard: I doubt whether I was the only hon. Member who was deeply shocked by the facile way in which the hon. Member for Mid-Bedfordshire (Mr. Hastings) produced evidence to suggest that the birds will fly away from Maplin if there is this develop-
  734
  ment. He may not regard Brent geese as an invaluable part of our national heritage, but there are many people inside and outside this House who do, and they would regard them as not the least price we would have to pay if this development went ahead.
  Once a year at the beginning of the cricket season all eyes are focused on the town of Worcester where the visiting team customarily makes its debut. This week the attention of the House is also focused on Worcester, or, more precisely, on the debris left behind by the right hon. Member for Worcester (Mr. Peter Walker) at the end of his calamitous term of office at the Department of the Environment. On Monday we debated his Water Bill, a monument of surrender to commercial interests and the negation of democratic control. On Tuesday we debated the tragic results of his housing policy. Today we are debating the most expensive and least justifiable of the legacies which he has bequeathed to his somewhat careworn successor.
  The Maplin Development Bill has all the hallmarks of a genuine Walker product. It is trendy, expensively packaged and irrelevant. It is also slow to mature, leaving its author plenty of time to make a quick getaway and to produce a handy alibi long before its full disastrous effects are felt. The right hon. Gentleman has stayed away this afternoon, which is all we should expect from a man who might have been the originator of Worcester Sauce.
  The Bill we are discussing is one which should never have been brought before the House. It seeks to fill a need that has not been effectively established, the need for a third major London airport, irrespective of the site which should be chosen for it. That need was certainly not established by the Roskill Commission. Under its terms of reference it could have considered the need but instead it chose to take it largely as read. That need was not established by the right hon. Member for Worcester when he announced to the House the decision to build an airport at Maplin. This afternoon the Secretary of State for the Environment took some trouble to argue the case but I have sensed that very few hon. Members were convinced by any of the arguments he put forward. On the

  735
  contrary, the impression I have of the House this afternoon is that it was much more impressed by the magisterial speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland), which has demonstrated with awesome clarity the flimsy nature of the case for a third London airport in the foreseeable future.
  If there were a real need for a third London airport, all of us recognise that there would be benefits for some and that sacrifices would have to be made by others. If the benefits clearly outweighed the sacrifices, I think that the House would decide to go ahead but would want to be satisfied that the sacrifices really were necessary and were mitigated to the greatest possible degree.
  My constituents are becoming painfully aware that some of them will have to bear the sacrifices demanded by the Bill, that it is their environment which will suffer, and that possibly many thousands of them will be uprooted from their homes to make way for access routes which will be constructed between London and the new airport.
  If the case for a third London airport had been made, they still would not like it. They would argue, and they would rightly expect me to argue on their behalf, that the airport was being placed in the wrong location, and that the burden should fall on the shoulders of others, not on theirs.
  In this, they would have a very strong argument to put forward. The Roskill Commission, which looked thoroughly into the question of alternative sites, decided by six votes to one that Maplin was the wrong place. The Roskill Report indicated that not one but two motorways, as well as a rail link, would need to be constructed.
  In paragraph 13.23 it stated:
  "But a second new motorway will be required sooner in the case of Foulness than in the case of both Cublington and Thurleigh. The roads required in the south Essex corridor are likely to do damage to urban areas on a scale which will not occur in the corridors between London and either of the inland sites".
  In paragraph 10.59, in what has been described as a masterly understatement, the commission adds:
  "We believe that the existence of two new motorways must add to the problems of creat-
  736
  ing a satisfactory urban environment in south Essex."
  The House has not been told exactly where these motorways will run. It may be that my constituents' fears are in some degree unjustified. But a glance at the map would indicate that any feasible route is likely to run through the London borough of Havering, of which my constituency forms part. Some idea of what this would mean has been given in a publication by the Essex Friends of the Earth, which I believe has been sent to all hon. Members within the last few days. This excellent publication—the Maplin manifesto—states:
  "If the main motorway and the railway run together, as seems probable"—
  and as the Secretary of State indicated this afternoon is the Government's intention—
  "they will require a swathe of land 200 yards wide. Great news if you happen to have shares in the bulldozer business, but not if you live in Essex and recognise the plight of the spaghetti junction sufferers. In our view, Spaghetti Junction's proportions will appear fairly modest when the schemes for linking the Maplin motorway are fully unveiled. There is still time to stop it, but only just."
  I was, in the main, delighted by the speeches made today by the hon. Members for Southend, East (Sir S. McAdden) and Essex, South-East (Sir Bernard Braine). They are both robust characters. I was glad to be batting for their side rather than for the opposing team, as it were. However, one thing which horrified me was the suggestion by the hon. Member for Southend, East that the motorway should be built first—that acres of housing should be ripped down to construct the motorway before work began on the airport. If that happened there would be tremendous destruction in my constituency for no benefit whatsoever.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: The hon. Gentleman must bear the responsibility for scaring his constituents unnecessarily. What evidence has he that the motorway is to go through his constituency or that thousands of houses are to be knocked down? He is making a statement. What evidence has he to support it?
  Mr. Leonard: If the hon. Gentleman will look at the map of London and show me how a motorway could be constructed between the projected site of Maplin airport and London without passing through the London borough

  737
  of Havering I should be delighted. I did not say that it would definitely go through my constituency. I said it was virtually certain to go through the London borough of Havering. If the Under-Secretary suggests that I am misinformed about that and that somehow a route will be found which will not go through the London borough of Havering, I should be delighted, and I give him the opportunity of telling me.
  Mr. Eldon Griffiths: The hon. Gentleman is making a number of statements which no doubt he intends should be fully reported in his local newspapers. However, he is succeeding only in unnecessarily alarming a lot of people in that area with no evidence on which to base his claim.
  Mr. Leonard: I suggest that the Bill is even more premature if the hon. Gentleman is not able to inform the House this afternoon what is intended, even in the most vague way. If he feels confident to say that I am mistaken in suggesting that the fears of my constituents may be justified, which is all I was suggesting, I will give way to him again.
  When the Under-Secretary chose to interrupt I was saying that if the motorways are to be constructed in advance of the airport, as was suggested by the hon. Member for Southend, East, it would be the worst of all possible outcomes. It would mean destruction on a considerable scale without any assurance that the project would ever reach fruition.
  In fighting the proposal to build a new airport at Maplin, my constituents and others in metropolitan and rural Essex and in Kent are no doubt behaving in the same way as vigilant citizens anywhere else would behave if they felt threatened. If the need for an airport had been established, it would then be the duty of the Government and of this House to weigh the competing claims and objections of different groups of citizens. This would clearly be a heavy and difficult responsibility for us to discharge, but it would be our responsibility to undertake it.
  That is not what the House is being asked to do this afternoon. My constituents are not being asked to make a sacrifice—a necessary sacrifice—for an objective which has been universally accepted and the case for which has been
  738
  proved up to the hilt. They are being asked to make a quite unnecessary sacrifice for an objective which remains unproven—a sacrifice, in effect, to the vanity of the right hon. Member for Worcester. They will have none of it, and I should be failing in my duty to them tonight if I did not go into the Lobby to vote against this grotesque proposal.
  7.37 p.m.
  Mr. R. J. Maxwell-Hyslop: It is unfortunate that my hon. Friend the Minister for Aerospace and Shipping who is to wind up tonight has abandoned the debate, because the remarks which he well knows I particularly wish to address on the subject of bird ingestion he will receive at second hand, and probably inaccurately.
  One would think from the manner in which the Secretary of State acclaimed the Roskill Report that he would end by accepting its recommendations. Of course, he did no such thing.
  I remind the House what Roskill said about his terms of reference in paragraph 2.12:
  "Right at the start of our work we were enjoined by some, for example, the Confederation of British Industry, to produce a national airports plan. Others later pointed out that the choice between the four sites could not be settled in the absence of a national airports plan. It was no part of our task as defined in the terms of reference to devise such a plan and we have resolutely resisted any attempt to do so".
  I hope that no one will allow himself by the passage of time to believe that Roskill examined the national air transport requirements and the best means of meeting them. That was not in the commission's terms of reference, and it did not attempt to do it.
  However, some people may believe that the minority report, of one, signed by Professor Buchanan, which recommended Foulness, broke through this restriction and took a look at the national requirements as a whole. But that is not what Professor Buchanan says. In paragraph 39 of his minority report he says:
  "As I have already said, I have never felt greatly hampered by the apparent lack of a regional planning policy or by the fact that Dr. Burns was able to report only late in our proceedings. But I do believe we have been very seriously handicapped by the complete lack of any overall airports policy. Our terms of reference were to recommend a site

  739
  to cater for 'the growth of traffic at existing airports serving the London area'."
  Neither did Buchanan endeavour to assess the needs of the nation in terms of air transport and to devise the best possible means of meeting those needs. In other words, neither of those recommendations was focused on a national need. That is the first reason why the reasoned amendment recommends itself to me. It calls for the body set up by the Government to study the national air transport requirements to be the controlling body for air safety and that, among other things, the Civil Aviation Authority should conduct such a survey. That is an utterly reasonable proposition.
  I shall address the burden of my remarks to the question of birdstrike. I asked the Secretary of State—he ducked the question and did not reply to it—whether he accepted or rejected the findings of the research team which were accepted by the entire Roskill Commission, including Professor Keith-Lucas, who, it may be known to the House, is a professor of aircraft design at the Cranfield Institute of Technology. Professor Keith-Lucas, along with the commission, accepted this statement:
  "The risk of bird flight incidents would still be three times greater at Foulness than at an inland site, even with an elaborate bird management and control programme."
  Do not let it be said that that estimate of three times the probability assumes that everything known to man was not done to control the birdstrike problem. It was expressly said that it was.
  It has been said that BEA's only objection was the distance of Foulness from central London. That is not true. Paragraph 8.36 at page 89, referring to BEA, says:
  "The airline did not agree that birdstrike gave no hazard to life or limb; two incidents at Sydney Airport. Australia, early in 1970 involving larger passenger jet aircraft could easily have been serious. In each case ingestion of birds caused loss of power on take-off and disaster was only narrowly averted."
  In summary the commission said:
  "The dividing line between minor incidents and a fatal accident can be small as the experiences at Sydney have shown. There remains the unchallenged fact that the bird population is greater at Foulness than at an inland site. No relationship has been detected between a number of birds and birdstrike incidents, whether fatal or otherwise. Nevertheless, the intuitive view must be that the
  740
  risk of incidents is greater where there are large numbers of birds."
  The commission balefully continues:
  "There can be no doubt, therefore, that there must be greater risk of a major disaster due to birdstrike at Foulness than at an inland site. The loss of life would be appalling and the public reaction would be one of horror, the more so if that disaster involved an aircraft of the size of a Boeing 747."
  That is exactly what it very possibly will involve in future because that is an aircraft which is widely in service. It concludes:
  "The efforts of the witnesses called by the three groups of county councils to persuade us that this risk could be entirely eliminated by means of an extraordinary battery of bird-scaring weapons were not successful."
  That decision was based on the best technical assessment there. Before I turn to the mathematics of probability I will add another comment, in case it should be thought irrelevant, from paragraph 8.38, headed "Safety—the Commission's view". It says:
  "Yet any consideration of safety problems implicitly involves the assessment of risk …"
  The risk of birdstrike has already been assessed by the commission as three times as much at Foulness as at an inland site. The risk is proportionate to the intake area of the engines concerned. That is the area exposed to a random flock of birds. Therefore, all other things being equal, which they are not, twice the area of engine exposed means a similar increase in probability. With twice the number of engines there is also that increase in probability. It does not matter whether the area is distributed through a multiplicity of engines or in one or two large ones; it is the area which controls the probability of contact with a random flock of birds. Random is exactly what they are.
  If we compare a Trident, which is a representative aircraft now in service with BEA—incidentally, the Trident has three engines hence its name—with the Douglas DC10, which will be a representative aircraft when Foulness comes into use, if it does, the DC10 has 7·29 times the area of intake exposed and the Boeing 747 has 7·8 times the area of the intake exposed. Incidentally, the latter has four engines rather than three.
  If we take those two factors and multiply them by three, because Roskill has shown that Foulness has three times the probability of birdstrike than an inland

  741
  site, and scale the 747 up in the ratio of three to four because it has four engines compared with the Trident's three, we find that the probability of birdstrike at Foulness, compared with the Trident using an inland site, is 31·2 times the probability in the case of the Boeing 747 and 21·87 times the probability for a Douglas DC10.
  The meaning of those figures can be brought home in this way. If we suppose that there is a one in a million chance for a Trident, for a DC.10 the odds would fall from one in a million to one in 46,000. The odds for a Boeing 747 would fall from one in a million to one in 32,000. While many of us might be prepared to pull the blanket up over our head a bit further and forget about a one in a million chance, a one in 32,000 chance is rather different. That is the order of possibility which we are up against.
  It is no good denying the arithmetic. If there is three times the probability at a coastal site—that is what Roskill says about Foulness—compared with an inland site, we must multiply that by the increase in area. But that is not all. My right hon. Friend referred to a letter he sent me, which incidentally he has not laid on the Table, which rightly draws attention to the fact that the configuration of the engines can also affect probability. Indeed it can. The configuration of the engines in the coming generation of large aircraft makes them more and not less prone to birdstrike. Whereas the Trident has one dorsal engine and the two others in the tail, which are the less vulnerable positions from the point of view of birdstrike, the Boeing 747 has them in the most vulnerable position known, strung out under the wings. The A300B European Airbus has one under each wing, and the DC10 has one under each wing and one dorsal engine. That is not progressing towards safety.
  Mr. Tebbit: Would my hon. Friend care to mention the TriStar?
  Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Yes, indeed. It has a dorsal engine and one engine under each wing, so it is severely exposed compared with a Trident.
  Just in case my hon. Friend the Minister for Aerospace and Shipping, who is to wind up the debate, is given tech-
  742
  nical advice that these very large engines are not liable to damage by birdstrike, I have some news for him. On 30th October last year, taking off from Tulsa, a DC10 struck a flock of birds. It suffered a total loss of power in both its wing-mounted engines and a 30 per cent. loss of power in the dorsal engine. As the report so wisely said, there was a hair's breadth from disaster, the aircraft just being able to stagger back on to the runway again. Therefore, I hope that we shall not hear any nonsense about the generation of turbo-fan engines now being introduced not being vulnerable to birdstrike. They are.
  Many Conservative Members have heard the latest technical advice on the matter from the manufacturers, who have confirmed in the hearing of a number of my hon. Friends who were with me that there is no way to make aero-engines invulnerable to birdstrike. At the same time, the best authority on the behaviour of birds that we could get assured us that there was no known way of keeping them away from the runways, as Roskill reported.
  Moreover, it is under storm conditions, when take-off and landing are most hazardous anyway, that the behaviour of the birds becomes least predictable, when they tend to fly below 20 feet, so that they cannot even be picked up on the radar, when they are attracted by the airfield landing lights, which is just where they are not wanted.
  We are invited to commit £1,000 million or more—who knows?—and the resources that that sum means to an airport that may have to be abandoned. Does anyone doubt that if a thousand people are killed in three accidents to wide-bodied aircraft we should not have to abandon the airport? Of course we should. A city of 250,000 people established in order that the people living in it should be employed in serving the airport will then be without its economic raison d'être. We shall not have the airfield capacity elsewhere, capacity that my right hon. and learned Friend has convincingly shown we shall need. We shall be £1,000 million down, and have 250,000 people without their livelihood. There will be all the damage done in between by the motorway built to serve an airport that has had to be abandoned. We shall

  743
  then even be late in providing the airport elsewhere.
  I shall not adumbrate on any other factors, because I believe it to be financial and economic irresponsibility to an unacceptable degree to commit resources of this magnitude to a project of this kind when no one can say whether or not it will have to be abandoned.
  Ministers have told us that they have research in progress which will lead to a report in two years' time on whether a way of deflecting the birds has yet been discovered—two years after we have been asked to commit the enormous sum of money I have mentioned. Sanity demands that we should ask the CAA to examine the entire national requirements and the means by which they can be met. What we must do is to ensure that when we take a decision we can live with it, bearing in mind birdstrike. I am convinced that nobody can give that assurance on the basis of knowledge today.
  7.55 p.m.
  Mr. Michael Barnes: The onus in the debate is not on those of us who are in favour of Maplin to prove the need for it all over again. The case for Maplin was made and was not seriously questioned until comparatively recently. That case still stands. The onus is on the opponents to prove their case, and it has not been proved sufficiently in the debate so far.
  I should like briefly to mention some of the arguments in favour of Maplin that are the most important. The first is the likely increase in the number of aircraft movements at Heathrow. Even allowing for the bigger aircraft that we are likely to get, the latest estimates show that the number of movements at Heathrow is likely to increase by about 36 per cent. by 1980. An answer to a Question I asked on 4th December last year, reported in HANSARD at c. 886, estimated that the movements would go up from 254,000 last March to 325,000 by 1980.
  It is important to remember that bigger aircraft do not automatically reduce the number of aircraft movements, because there are many routes on which the most important factor is the frequency of the service and not the number of passengers that can be packed into one aircraft.
  The second point is aircraft noise. It is now being said that the new generation
  744
  of jets coming along are quieter. So they are, but they are not that much quieter, and with the kind of increase in aircraft movements at Heathrow that we shall have by 1980 life will be absolutely intolerable for people living under the glide path, the approach to Heathrow.
  Even allowing for the quieter aircraft that are coming along, we must remember that many of the noisiest aeroplanes we have now are still coming off the production line. I think, for example, of Boeing 707s and Tridents. They can have a life of 20 years or more. Therefore, many of the noisy aircraft that we have now and are still getting will be around for a very long time.
  There is also the question of Concorde, which will make a hell of a lot of noise on take-off and landing. The assurances that the Minister for Aerospace and Shipping has tried to give the House have been very unconvincing. He has used very evasive language when answering questions about the amount of noise Concorde will make on take-off and landing. It is vital that Concorde should be restricted to a coastal airport—Maplin—at the earliest possible date.
  The arguments about STOL and VTOL have been presented far too optimistically by the opponents of Maplin. It will be much longer than they suggest before STOL and VTOL are practical possibilities. But that is exactly the kind of argument the opponents of Maplin could have argued much more closely than they have. It is the kind of technical matter that the whole argument is all about.
  I was very glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins) referred to the question of safety. He spoke of the number of near misses in the air in recent years and rightly said that as traffic increases at Heathrow obviously the possibility of mid-air collisions increases as well. The consequences of a mid-air collision over the densely-populated area of West London round Heathrow are terrifying. Therefore, there is a strong argument on safety grounds for keeping the number of movements at Heathrow to a reasonable level, and this can only be done by having a third London airport.

  745
  I turn to the environmental argument. The argument in the terms of environmental planning is entirely in favour of Maplin. The ideal situation from this point of view is that Britain's major airport of the future should be on a coastal site and especially on a coastal site where the prevailing winds are such that most of the landings will take place in a westerly direction—in other words, the long low approach will be over the sea. For all those reasons there is no doubt in my mind that the balance of argument is still very much in favour of Maplin and that we need Maplin as soon as we can get it.
  The opponents of Maplin have not proved their case. It is an easy and attractive argument to say "Why spend all this money on an airport when it could be spent on houses, hospitals and schools?" But the arguments in relation to Maplin are highly technical and complicated. They involve aircraft movements, NNI contours, and so on. If those arguments for Maplin are to be countered, it must be by similar arguments involving technical matters. One cannot counter those technical arguments by general arguments of an emotive nature such as many of those which we have heard in this debate.
  It is easy to picture Concorde and Maplin as two enormously expensive white elephants. It is a pity that Concorde has run into trouble at a time when we are discussing Maplin since this has added to the tendency of many people outside the House, as well as by hon. Members, to lump the two matters together and to regard them both as white elephants. They are different projects and it is a mistake to compare them.
  Finally, I wish to refer to some of the comments which have been made by the hon. Member for Heston and Isleworth (Mr. Hayhoe). I do not refer to comments he has made in this debate, because he was present in the Chamber only briefly earlier in the day. I refer to his speeches in my constituency and his constituency, and to the comments he made on the radio this morning. His main theme was that the Labour Party has taken a cynical attitude on this subject. He said that the Labour Party was dragooning Members into the
  746
  Division Lobby. This is absolute nonsense and the hon. Gentleman must know it. The Labour Party's attitude is not cynical. There are arguments which can be put against Maplin and they have been put extremely ably this afternoon by my right hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland). I happen to differ from my right hon. Friend and to take the other view. I consider that the arguments in which I believe are stronger than those in which he believes, but there is no question of Labour taking a cynical view. We have taken a relaxed attitude, because Labour has only a two-line Whip. The views of my hon. Friend the Member for Putney and my own views are respected and understood and there is no question of dragooning anybody into the Lobby. For my own part I have no intention of voting against the Bill because, for the reasons I have given, I am in favour of a third London airport at Maplin.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): Before I call the next Member, I must inform the House that the Chair finds itself in a desperate situation in trying to call all hon. Members who wish to take part in this debate. Therefore I would ask hon. Members to follow the fine example set by the hon. Member for Brentford and Chiswick (Mr. Barnes) in an admirably short speech, and to try to keep their remarks even shorter. If that is done, I shall do my best to call every hon. Member who wishes to speak.
  8.7 p.m.
  Mr. David Crouch: In view of your remarks, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I shall forgo the pleasantries with which I intended to begin my speech.
  If I were to give a title to my remarks, I would select the phrase, "Why the rush?". I shall quote from the report of the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries in March 1971, of which I was a member. We examined in that Committee the need for a national airports policy, and in paragraph 36 and 37 of our report we said,
  "The Department of Trade and Industry had hoped that the Roskill Commission would, in effect, produce the south-eastern part of a national plan. The Commission, however, regarded this as being beyond their terms of reference and limited themselves to considering the best site for the Third London Airport. The situation appears to be that, because the

  747
  formulation of a national plan would take much time and skill, and because neither the Department nor any other body is yet preparing itself to undertake such a task, the decision on the siting of a Third Airport will be taken before there is a national plan. This, when it is prepared, will have to be built round the existing fact of the Third Airport."
  That puts this debate in context. I am not saying that the Government should not be allowed to have their Bill, but that there is a case for giving a little more time. We need an expenditure pause. I am not asking that the matter should go into Committee and stay there for ages, but the speeches which have been made in this debate for and against the Bill suggest that there is a great deal of untrodden ground. There is a changed aeronautical situation and there are new factors in the Bill which affect regional policy.
  The Bill proposes more than I originally thought would be provided two years ago when I was considering Foulness as the third London airport. The Bill proposes to set up a port to vie in size and scale with Rotterdam. It proposes an industrial complex which, we have been assured by the Government Front Bench, will be a limited complex and will be considered by a Select Committee. I am not satisfied by that alone because there is no word in the Bill to say that there will not grow up in the South-East of England on the shores of Essex and Kent an industrial complex which will be attracted by the biggest magnet ever created in the SouthEast—probably the largest seaport and airport in Britain, if not in Europe. Such a magnet can only tempt the movement of industrial investment away from other regions.
  I cannot believe that it has support, backed by knowledge resulting from a deep study, in one area of the Department of Trade and Industry; namely, the area of industrial development headed by my right hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr. Chataway), who courageously introduced the Industry Act and has given generous treatment to the regions to re-vitalise and resuscitate those areas which have taken so long to come to life again. But here we are considering provision to provide an airport and seaport which will disturb the balance of regional planning. Such is the magnitude of that change that we must pause to consider it against all the other legisla-
  748
  tion which has been forced through Parliament in the last two years to try to get the country on its feet. This may be what we need.
  I have never tried to say that we should not have a third London airport. I have always felt it my duty to ignore to some extent the views of my constituents—and I live in the area—and to consider my national duty. I have always felt that as a trading nation we must make proper provision for the carriage of both people—and this involves tourism and business travel—and freight. Today, more and more air travel will be used for this purpose.
  I have never attempted to suggest that the need for an extra airport, either nationally or in the South-East, to serve London should be filled by having an inland site. It is difficult to wish a new site on any area. I feel that the Government should have given us more than one day for consideration of this important matter. I am not satisfied that this should be treated as a hybrid Bill for further examination in the form of evidence from witnesses. I should like a pause so that there can be a study in depth and so that some of the problems brought forward by this debate can be looked at by experts and reported to Parliament in the proper way.
  In what I thought was a very interesting but disturbing series of revelations, my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop) referred to the problem of birdstrikes. During the war I was involved in a birdstrike. I was flying in a bomber which struck a bird as it was coming into land at an airport in India. It was a twin-engine bomber. The aircraft was badly shaken, with the windscreen smashed. It was almost out of control. We landed safely. But, as my hon. Friend said, take-off and landing are the most critical moments in flying. Some months after my own experience I lost two Royal Air Force colleagues who struck a similar bird over India. It was a kite-hawk. The plane crashed instantly from 1,500 feet and there was no recovery. Both were killed. Birdstrikes are not unknown, and we cannot dismiss them as being of little significance.
  Are the Government still certain that we should embark upon this colossal expenditure? Are they certain that they

  749
  have all the facts? Are they certain that all the questions that we have raised do not disturb them enough for them to say "We shall pause"? At a time when we are considering restriction in one way or another and are drawing in our belts, surely it would not be wrong for the Government to pause. Maplin may be a great white elephant. It may be an enormous mistake economically and environmentally. I have the feeling that perhaps it will not be and that it will succeed. But I want it looked at. Having said I think that it might succeed, it is not enough for a Minister to say that it may succeed. The Government have to be convinced that it will. This country cannot afford a great white elephant.
  I quote once again from the man who has been quoted today. I refer, of course, to Sir Colin Buchanan, who wrote the minority report. He has been described as the one out of seven members of the commission who recommended Foulness. However, we must see what else he said about a national airport policy. I quote from paragraph 40 of his minority report:
  "… I see there are some 17 millions in the south-cast region of England with London as a main centre of influence; and in the central regions … stretching from Liverpool through Manchester, Sheffield, Derby, Nottingham, Leicester to Birmingham there are sonic 18 millions …".
  In paragraph 41 he said:
  "I would think that on either count a good case could be argued first for locating a new airport in an area where it will help to create equality of wealth and opportunity, and secondly for ensuring it does not tend to concentrate still more activities in the London area to the possible impoverishment of the rest of the country. But this reasoning I think a case could be developed for not putting the so-called third London airport in the south-east at all, but for locating it in the central regions."
  That is the man who is said to have recommended Foulness. However, he tried to consider the problem as a whole. He may have thought Foulness unattractive, as I do. But I believe that we need more time to consider all the implications of the airport, the seaport and the industrial development which would grow whether the Government liked it or not. It would grow and probably it would make us very rich in the South-East. I do not want to deny my constituents the opportunity. However, the view from Whitstable and Herne Bay will not be
  750
  what it is today. It will be the view of a new Teesside on the Thames Estuary.
  I feel that there are pressures working on the Government to get on with the project in too great a hurry. The pressures are not coming from the national airlines or from the British Airports Authority. I do not believe that they are coming from the Department of Trade and Industry, the Department concerned with airports and airlines. Here is an expenditure of £1,000 million. Surely it is worth an up-to-date study. A Second Reading and a Standing Committee are not enough for me. There is a great deal of uncertainty about this decision. The experts do not agree. The professors do not agree. The Roskill Commission did not agree. Sir Colin Buchanan was not sure. Parliament has a duty to put a restraining hand on the executive in the nicest possible way.
  8.16 p.m.
  Mr. Leslie Huckfield: I cannot help but take up briefly the argument of the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Crouch) about where the real pressure is coming from.
  When one comes to think about it, we are talking about what is probably the largest capital expenditure project which any Government has discussed in this country this century. That is the magnitude of it. Yet the hon. Member for Mid-Bedfordshire (Mr. Hastings), who is no longer in the Chamber, said that we had been discussing it for the past 20 years. Now that we have the precedent of the Concorde before us, I am glad that we have been discussing it all that time and that we have not done anything about it.
  It must have occurred to right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House—and I hope that the point has got home to the Treasury Bench—that during the 20 years that we have been discussing the project and even since the Roskill Commission was set up in 1968 a great deal has changed. I venture to suggest that the feasibility of quieter engine technology being a success has come in since the Roskill Commission reported. What is more, the feasibility and the reality of the advanced passenger train has become much more definite. We have progressed a great deal since Roskill reported, and if the Government still insist on basing their

  751
  conclusions on the Roskill Report, I believe that Roskill is already out of date.
  A recruiting theme from the Treasury Bench and from other right hon. and hon. Members on both sides who have spoken in favour of Maplin is the insistence that everything must bow before modern technology. Just as some people argue that every single thing has to bow before the car, it now seems that there are right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House who are prepared to argue that everything must bow before the aeroplane. I question that. Just as we seriously question the access of the car to our city centres, I believe that it is about time that we began to question the access of the aeroplane as well.
  The forecasts which we have heard from right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House are staggering. If we are to believe the figures given by Ed Mishan of the London School of Economics, we are discussing 294 million passenger flights by the year 2000. What kind of country will this be? Must we have this incredible bowing-down to the illogical march of mad technology?
  I also find the public expenditure argument staggering. We are not talking about just another airport. We are talking about a four-runway airport, at least 10 terminal buildings, a four-lane motorway, a broad corridor through the lives and homes of thousands of people, and a brand new jet city of 250,000 people.
  Is no one considering the inflationary consequences of all this? Is no one considering the opportunity cost of doing all this? Of how many houses, schools and hospitals are we depriving ourselves? Even Buchanan in his wildest economic moments has at least recognised the concept of opportunity cost. It is about time that the Government recognised it. Even if we go ahead with this project in the South-East the opportunity cost may be the possibility of having the construction industry doing nothing else for at least the next 25 years.
  I do not accept the passenger progression and the flight progression which have been suggested as being largely inevitable. Apart from the devastating regional imbalance which any airport in this part of the country would create, I do not accept that it must all be concentrated on London.
  752
  Why can we not start using differential pricing policies to get aeroplanes out of London? Why cannot we think about a much increased use of our regional airports, for example, for domestic flights, flights to Ireland and the Continent? Why cannot we differentiate in our pricing policy? Calculations made by Professor Bromhead of Bristol University suggest that the flights using London Airport could be reduced by at least 50 per cent. if we used the advanced passenger train and operated a differential pricing policy. One of the BEA planning officials, Mr. Graham, has calculated that on the basis of using differential pricing and with BEA operating jumbos by 1985 the company would need no more slots in the Heathrow flight movement programme than would be needed in 1975.
  The Government have to give much more serious consideration to diversification of flights, differential pricing policies and the precise effect of the new generation of jumbos just coming into operation. Apart from that it must be borne in mind that over the next 20 years 60 per cent. of total flight movements in and out of the country will be nonscheduled flight movements; in other words, inclusive tours and charters.
  These are the people to whom time matters least. They do not want to fly from central London. They do not mind going to Southampton or to Luton. They do not mind going to the regions. It is precisely these people who will be in the majority in future. If we are to believe the figures produced by Mr. Kenneth Wilkinson—who has had some close connection with BEA and who ought to know what he is talking about—during a lecture to the Royal Aeronautical Society in Swindon on 20th October 1971, about 80 per cent. of the flights in and out of Heathrow are shorthaul flights. This is precisely the bulk of the traffic which is most susceptible to VTOL. STOL and RTOL calculations about which we have heard so much today.
  He has put forward the feasible proposition that by 1978 it would be possible to have 200-seater RTOL planes and that by 1983 it would be possible to have 300-seater QRTOL planes. He claims that if we take a 200-mile standard block it would be possible to operate RTOL

  753
  by 1980 and the late 1970s at only 2 per cent. more than conventional aeroplane costs. He has done a calculation which shows that by 1990 if we assume that we bring RTOL in, if we assume that movements continue at Heathrow, and that Northolt is brought into operation, it would be possible to cater for the increase in passengers, even on existing demand forecasts, by using RTOL.
  He has also calculated that by 1990 we could bring the 35 NNI contour down from 200 to 40 square miles. That kind of noise reduction is possible, even with increased passenger flow. Reducing the NNI contour in that way would exclude Putney, Hammersmith and many of the constituencies mentioned this afternoon.
  Apart from that, if we concentrate on RTOL we take time off the flight. Maplin can have only one effect and that would be to put time on to the flight. This is the sort of thing we must seriously consider. By concentrating on reduced take-off and landing and quiet engine technology we can help the constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins) far more, because if we go ahead with Maplin we shall not help his constituents. How will we help his constituents or the constituents of my hon. Friend the Member for Brentford and Chiswick (Mr. Barnes) when we might possibly have an airport at Maplin that we can possibly use by 1980?
  If my hon. Friend really thinks that his constituents will obtain relief in that way I beg to differ. We shall get far more relief by concentrating on RTOL and quieter engine technology. The whole direction of aviation travel is away from scheduled movements and towards nonscheduled charter movements. These are the people who do not want elaborate computer reservation systems, elaborate terminals and check-in facilities and who do not mind going out to Stansted and provincial airports. These are the people who will form the bulk of passengers in future.
  For Heaven's sake let us think a bit more about the majority of people who will be flying in future. Let us stop thinking that it is only businessmen who want to fly. It is the great majority of the people who will be flying. This is a
  754
  monstrous extravaganza. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Battersea, North (Mr. Jay) has said, the way out is to build one more runway at Gatwick and perhaps one more at Stansted. Then, by concentrating on the new technologies I have mentioned, we can benefit the country and our constituents and avoid what will be the greatest white elephant this country has ever seen.
  8.26 p.m.
  Mr. Norman Tebbit: About all that this House seems to have agreed upon today—the lowest common denominator of agreement—is that there is a need for improved facilities to cater for more passengers and produce greater efficiency. It is agreed that there is a need to relieve those worst affected by noise. That is about as far as it goes. Almost everyone seems to have a different idea about how to achieve these ends.
  One or two things have been said which ought to be picked up quickly. My hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop) made an impressive speech dealing with birdstrike. If it is not the wrong expression, I feel that he may have over-egged his speech in a couple of directions. He produced out of space the figure of a chance of one in a million. We would have to look carefully at the source of that figure. Secondly, if we predicate that a jumbo is 10 times more liable to suffer a bird strike than a Trident, it is 10 times more liable to do so irrespective of the airport to which it is flying. My hon. Friend rather overdid the point and I think that we will see that clearly when we read his speech tomorrow.
  The House is being invited not only to grant a Second Reading to the Bill, but to consider what is described as a "reasoned amendment" but which could be more accurately described as a contrived amendment. The Bill creates a development authority which will have the task of reclaiming something like 18,000 acres from the sea for various purposes, including an airport development.
  This is not the Third London Airport Bill; it is the small tip of a giant regional planning scheme. It does not mention the town of 250,000 people or the railways or the motorways to service the developments. It does mention the port.

  755
  When we examine the Opposition amendment, it becomes obvious why I described it as "contrived". It calls, of all things, upon the Civil Aviation Authority to reappraise the need for a seaport and the whole question of regional development in this country.
  I am a great admirer of Lord Boyd-Carpenter but this is rather a lot to put on his civil aviation plate. We might just as well have asked the Port of London Authority to decide whether we need an airport as ask the Civil Aviation Authority whether we need a seaport and a town of 250,000 people. So we are certainly justified in rejecting that amendment, and certainly I shall vote against it.
  When it comes to the Bill, however, I do not think I can support the Government. I will not rehearse the doubts I raised two years ago—doubts have been raised by many other right hon. and hon. Members, some of which, although not all of them, I share—about the need for this airport, the timing of it and how we should go about providing for these traffic needs. What I am certain of is that we shall not find that we need a 12,000-acre, four-runway, 1950-technology airport in the 1990s. I am quite certain that if we spent some of the near-blank cheque which we are being invited to start writing tonight, on promoting quieter aircraft, if necessary assisting our own airlines to purchase quieter aircraft and then clamping very tight noise limits on the airports, we should be doing a great deal more to help the constituents of the hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins) and many others. If we move Heathrow's operations out to Maplin most of the constituents affected by the noise of Heathrow will rush straight off to Maplin, because that is where their jobs are, associated with the airport.
  Sadly, too, like the hon. Member for Huddersfield, East (Mr. J. P. W. Mallalieu) I am forced to the conclusion that my right hon. Friend the former Secretary of State for the Environment did indeed judge this issue as a political issue. He judged it on decibel ratings: not, regrettably, the decibel ratings of the motorways to Foulness or the decibel ratings of the aircraft, but the decibel ratings of the groups that lobbied. Unhappily, those poor unfortunate geese
  756
  at Foulness did not honk loudly enough or early enough, and they have got this lot foisted on them. It was an entirely political decision, taken in the face of the technological and economic facts that aircraft can be quieter and that this will be the most expensive airport that has ever been built—more expensive even than Dulles was to the Americans, and that is certainly saying something. We are hiding these economic facts behind this vast regional development.
  Worst of all, I fear that if tomorrow my right hon. Friends were so absolutely convinced, if it became so patently obvious, that we did not need this airport that they stood up and said "It is a write-off, we do not need it", nevertheless, because of what we are setting out to do now in other terms, the port, the industrial complex, the commercial complex, the town of a quarter of a million people, the motorways and the railways would all have achieved such impetus and life of their own that they would grind on and we would be supposed to forget that the real reason we ever started talking about this development was the airport which was no longer to be built.
  I turn now to the problems which I believe this may raise in my own constituency. They may affect other people too. I have a new town, Harlow, in my constituency. It will be expanded in size in the latter part of this decade by about 50 per cent. Already we have to compete for industry against other southern new towns and against towns like Skelmersdale, with the massive incentives for regional development to bring industry to the North.
  Now I am asked to vote for a measure which in the end will produce another southern new town which will have a massively subsidised infrastructure against which my new town will have to compete. I do not believe that would be right. I cannot believe there is sense in my right hon. and hon. Friends in the Government paying massive sums to industry and saying "Please pack your bags and leave this crowded south-eastern corner of England and go north or west to where you are needed", and at the same time saying "Look at the massive sum of money we are going to spend to attract you back to the bottom right-hand corner of Essex". It does not make sense to me.

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  Tragic as it is to cover any part of this land with concrete, it would be doubly tragic to cast away the last piece of the coastline of south-eastern England which has not been developed already. Happily it has been saved for us, ironically because the Army goes and fires its guns there. May the Army continue to preserve it for us until we have the sense to preserve it as an unspoiled part of the coast of South-East England.
  Lastly, I would address one particular word to my right hon. and hon. Friends. They will very probably get their Bill tonight, but I implore them, when they get home, to sit down and think again. Let them think about how this project will look in 10 years' time. Let them think about the times we had a little while ago in a Committee upstairs asking for a Select Committee to see how the Concorde affair had escalated through all its stages. Let them think about all these rising costs, possibly on Concorde's scale. Let them think about an airfield unwanted by customers and airlines, with the British Airports Authority looking at the red ink all over its books and with BOAC and BEA asking where they are to get the money from to move their 30,000 and more employees and all their existing facilities. Let them think about the red ink on the books of British Railways when running the railway service—and if British Railways are able to make a profit on it I shall be surprised. Let them think again about the demands which their successors will have for a Select Committee to consider how we got into the mess, why the decisions were taken and why we did not look ahead.
  8.35 p.m.
  Mr. Nigel Spearing: There is a great deal in what both the hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Tebbit) and my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Leslie Huckfield) have said. They have got so many points right on the nail. They have hit the bull's-eye.
  My hon. Friend referred to the advanced passenger train. With that and the Channel Tunnel, many places on the Continent will be within 10 or 12 hours' travelling time in a sleeping car. How many people would prefer that to flying? Yet that aspect has not been mentioned. The hon. Member for Epping mentioned the railway to Maplin. If there are to be new tunnels, as I believe
  758
  there must be, and completely new lines, how can British Railways make the service pay? The hon. Gentleman was right on that point.
  I must confess that I spoke in favour of this site in the debate on 4th March as against that of Cublington. As a London Member, I say that if there is to be a third London airport it should be away from the built-up areas of London. My constituency is one of those which suffers a great deal of noise. The question is, do we need a third London airport?
  In that earlier debate, half my speech argued about the statistics and made doubts for the Government as to whether we really needed a third London airport. My questions have not been answered, nor were the other points which I raised in the debate initiated by the hon. Member for Epping on 28th May 1971. Most of these points dealt with the very factor to which the hon. Gentleman referred as the tip of the iceberg.
  This is not really a debate about the airport but is about regional development. The clue comes in the statement by the former Secretary of State for the Environment quoted in The Times of 27th April 1971. Here I would mention that for considerable periods during this debate we have had no representatives of that new, massive and great Department with us in the Chamber. I see none here at the moment, and that is disgraceful. Even when the hon. Member for Essex, South-East (Sir Bernard Braine) spoke—and it is his constituency which is most concerned in the new development—no representative of the Department of the Environment was on the Front Bench. This is reprehensible in the extreme.
  The report in The Times, referring to the then Secretary of State, said:
  "Of the proposals for seaport-airport complexes, he thought the 'real perks' in such schemes were the possibility of large-scale industrial development. He accepted that there were dangers of overheating. As planning progressed it would be the job of the Department of the Environment to 'make clear the limits of development which make good planning sense.'"
  It is good planning sense that we have not had from the Government. The Bill as drafted gives an open, carte blanche cheque, as the hon. Member for Epping

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  said, to reclaim some 76 square kilometres from the sea for this limited purpose.
  Sir Bernard Braine: I think the hon. Gentleman is wrong. The Bill does not lay down how much land shall be reclaimed. That is our objection to it.
  Mr. Spearing: I take the point. There is an outside line on the maps. There is not necessarily a need for an airport of the size projected, and which might go even further, as the hon. Gentleman has suggested; but that is beside the point for the moment. The point is that the Government have still said virtually nothing about all the associated developments which might come—roads, railways and motorways. They have said nothing about the extent of the sort of developments which might be expected.
  That is one of the questions which I and the hon. Member for Essex, South-East have asked in previous debates but to which we have had no answer, apart from one statement by the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment on 9th August last, when he said:
  "The Government propose to designate a substantial area for development by a New Town Development Corporation, working in close collaboration with the local planning authorities. We expect to publish a draft designation order early next year."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th August 1972; Vol. 842, c. 1745.]
  This is for some 200,000 to 300,000 people. For what, we may ask?
  It is quite possible to say that we shall have an airport and no associated development other than that which is minimally required. That is what I suggested in 1971. I also suggested that if there were to be employment, this area is within three-quarters of an hour's travelling time of the existing built-up areas of East London. Even today one can get there by electric train in three-quarters of an hour. Many dockers do that. We understand that there will be large areas of new housing, when there will be very few jobs in East London.
  As a London Member, I see no need for more of this vast development that we may expect from the Government. Therefore, the Bill as it stands should be opposed on that ground alone, because we have no details of conditions about what is essential to London and essential on a regional basis. If we are to have
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  all this development, what about the poor people who are to be made redundant in the steelworks? The Government have said "We shall look after you." But if there are to be more jobs artificially created by this development, how can they do that?
  I conclude on the question of costs The Money Resolution, which is to be taken after the Bill is passed, says "any sums." It does not state a maximum figure. The sky is the limit to the lending powers under guarantee by the Government to the Maplin Development Corporation. Presumably, if that goes ahead there will be other loans to new town corporations, British Rail and all the other people involved in unspecified and apparently unlimited developments. That will follow automatically, as night follows day. That is what the House is being asked to decide upon. A House of Commons responsible for public money would not make that sort of decision on the sort of evidence which is now before it.
  There is a case, however, for a very limited development at Maplin in the reclamation of, perhaps, 15 square kilometres only, with the use of existing railway tracks, as, perhaps, an overflow airport or an emergency landing ground—if there is need. But I want to see that need demonstrated, and only very limited development there. Unless the Government can do that—they have not done it in the Bill—this legislation should be resisted.
  8.42 p.m.
  Mr. Robert Adley: I am conscious of the fact that a large number of my hon. Friends have not yet spoken in the debate, so I shall be brief.
  I am very sorry for my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment. He has had a difficult task steering the European Economic Community legislation through the House when he felt it to be absolutely right and when it was not entirely popular in the country. He has now been lumbered with a lame Brent goose which many feel will be increasingly difficult to defend as the years pass.
  I should like to quote the words of my right hon. Friend the Member for

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  Taunton (Mr. du Cann), who spoke yesterday in the debate on public expenditure. He said:
  "I start from the profound and unshakeable belief, which is fortified by experience, that the power of the executive has increased and is increasing. It should be contained and we as Members of Parliament have a duty to contain it."
  He went on to say:
  "Parliament is more often consulted after the Government have made a policy decision than before."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th February 1973; Vol. 850, c. 501–02.]
  It is little announcements such as the appointment of Sir Frank Marshall before the House has passed the Bill that are the sort of thing to which many of us object so strongly.
  The right hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland), when all this started in 1968, called it
  "one of the most important investment and planning decisions which the nation must make in the next decade."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 20th May 1968; Vol. 765, c. 32.]
  I ask my right hon. and learned Friend, in all seriousness, how does a back-bench Member make up his mind whether to support a Bill of this nature? He has to fly in the face of a great deal of evidence produced by a large number of highly-expert people. He is left with nothing more, perhaps, than a deep innate feeling that we are doing something terrible. I apologise for the fact that I cannot express that in a better way. When Roskill's recommendations were rejected the Government should have said "We shall start again", rather than succumb to the easy option of choosing the site to which there was the least opposition.
  I am struck time and again by the analogy of the argument advanced by road planners who say "We have a terrible problem of congestion in position X, so all we have to do is to build a road or a bypass and we shall cure it", when all they are doing is generating new traffic by building the new road. I ask my hon. Friends to consider whether this is not the time, as the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Leslie Huckfield) said, when we should simply say "Enough is enough"? Do we just go on "catering for the need", or should we not find a way of diverting the need or an alternative method of providing people with the
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  opportunity to travel from point A to point B?
  I am told that all the Channel Tunnel would do would be to provide the equivalent of one year's capacity for aircraft growth. If that is so, we perhaps need six Channel Tunnels which would be more environmentally acceptable as a means of getting people from this country to and from the Continent of Europe than to build a useless airport and to press on regardless.
  You will notice, Mr. Speaker, that I am discarding points as quickly as the hon. Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins) did.
  I come to the advanced passenger train. This, I believe, will be a valuable asset to this country in the years ahead. The hon. Member for Brentford and Chiswick (Mr. Barnes) accused opponents of the Maplin project of doing nothing to define circumstances which have changed since 1968 when the Roskill Commission was set up. The advanced passenger train is one. I shall quote another such change. In 1968 a DC8 aircraft carried 259 passengers and needed a runway length of 11,500 feet. It was the largest aircraft then in service, and its take-off weight was 350,000 lb. Now a B747 can carry 490 passengers, needs a runway of 9,400 feet and has a take-off weight of 710,000 lb. The Hawker Siddeley 146 is one of the new aircraft which is outstandingly quiet, even compared with today's "quiet" aircraft, and for which the company will ask the Government to provide a limited amount of funds.
  As to the noise factor, if my young son, Rupert, stands in the middle of the drawing room yelling his head off I do not tell him to go to the other end of the room; I tell him to be quiet. The same principle should apply over the siting of an airport. Moving the noise is not enough.
  We have heard from a number of hon. Members of the need for a national airports policy. I have a letter with me which Professor Buchanan wrote to me in 1971. It is marked "confidential", but this morning I had his permission in a conversation over the telephone to quote from the letter. I am bound to tell my hon. Friends that he wrote:
  "My view is that the Commission was seriously handicapped by a complete lack of a national airports policy."

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  I cannot help but feel that we are rushing into something which we shall all spend years regretting.
  I mention briefly the question of tourism. I understand that the British Tourist Authority is opposed to the project and has been from the beginning. The Government decided that the national exhibition centre should be established in Birmingham. It was a decision taken in the national interests and in the interest of planning. A similar decision should be taken over the third airport. All the experts said that the exhibition centre must be in London, but, very wisely, the Government said that it should be in Birmingham, and I have no doubt that it will be a great success.
  On the regional policy point, I must ask my right hon. and learned Friend and the Minister for Aerospace and Shipping a point on which I seek guidance. They will know that in the South-West with the arrival of motorways the pressure for an airport is increasing. The Department has rejected a modest request from Exeter for £25,000 for development of that airport. Can my hon. Friend give some indication that the airport needs of Bristol, South Wales and South-West England will be put into the pipeline and that the Civil Aviation Authority will be told not that it may consider this area but that it should now consider it as a matter of urgency?
  I find the Opposition amendment opportunistic. To ask the CAA to devise a regional policy and a national ports policy is going too far. We had a groundnuts scheme many years ago and a Gambian egg scheme. To me Foulness has the smell of these two.
  I finish with a thought which my right hon. and learned Friend might take home with him along with the thoughts offered by my hon. Friend the Member for Epping (Mr. Tebbit). It is based on the current advertising slogan of one of the large American airlines which has traffic rights across the North Atlantic. If I were the director of advertising of that airline, thinking about Foulness and referring to my right hon. and learned Friend, I might be moved to suggest a slogan "I'm Geoffrey. Fly me to Foulness." I do not like the Bill and I cannot support it.
  8.51 p.m.
  Mr. W. Benyon: This has been a nostalgic debate. Two years ago hon. Members were insisting that the airport should not be at an inland site, that the situation at existing airports must be improved and that there was a need for additional capacity. Most of us took the view then, and I adhere to it now, that the airport must be in the London area. If we agree that the airport cannot be on the South Coast, and Roskill went into that, and that Bristol and Liverpool are too far away, we are left inescapably with the conclusion that Maplin is the only possible solution.
  It is no good saying that aeroplanes have got larger. They have got larger to take larger numbers of passengers. It is no good saying they have got quieter, because they have not got quiet enough. It is also no good saying that passenger traffic has not increased as fast as was at first thought. The trend is the important factor, and that trend is right, and it is explosive. If we consider the information in the Roskill Report about the percentage of passengers coming from the South-East and the percentage coming from abroad—and I prefer to rely on the 1990 figures because they are far more significant—we shall see that the vast majority of people who are projected to fly in that year want to come and go from London.
  It is curious that the Labour Party has suddenly become concerned about long-term costs. It has not introduced that consideration in our discussions on coal and steel recently. Even if the worst projections were realised and the airport became a so-called white elephant, we should still be left with a prime industrial site and a deep-water port. In addition, we shall be reclaiming land at a cost of about £10,000 an acre, which must be a good investment.
  The planning aspects of this project are as valid as ever they were. If we do not go to Maplin we have to go elsewhere, and, therefore, the real decision is: shall we step back from this vital decision which has been before us for so long? Shall we simply tinker with the problem once more? Shall we allow the environment at existing airports to worsen? Shall we lose out to the Europeans—and how the French must be laughing at this debate—and shall we

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  miss the great chance which presents itself to match our lead in aircraft technology with the services which such aircraft require?
  8.55 p.m.
  Mr. David Stoddart: The Secretary of State in his opening statement projected the needs between now and 1990. He may well project the needs, but has he considered whether these needs, which will be enormous, should be met? As a nation we should consider whether it is right from an environmental and economic standpoint to meet the transportation needs through air transport.
  To take as an example the projection of tourists, we find that by the year 2000 the number of tourists coming into London wil have increased sixfold. Is that what we want? Is that what Londoners want? Will Londoners be able to cope with such an increase or are we faced with what will become a tourist blight?
  I believe we should be looking at our transportation policy as a whole and not at each section in isolation. We should now have reached the stage, having looked at our transport system and the various means of transport, of using that form of transport best suited for any particular purpose.
  I am not at all sure that it is right to take more freight traffic by air. It might well be better for the Secretary of State to consider spending another £4 million—and I have tabled a Question to him on this point next week—on developing the tracked hovercraft train. It would be preferable if, instead of pouring hundreds of millions of pounds into the Maplin project, we did a great deal more research on our surface transport system and provided British Rail with adequate funds to meet what I believe to be the real need.
  I wonder whether the technical feasibility of Maplin has been examined as thoroughly as it should have been. When speaking to a professor of economics at the London School of Economics today, I found what he had to say to me alarming in the extreme. He said—and perhaps the Minister might deal with this—that 400 million tons of fill would be required to reclaim Maplin. I do not
  766
  know and he does not, but he has doubts, whether we shall be able to get this from sea aggregate. If we do not get it from sea-claimed aggregate, we shall have to get it from other sources.
  I understand that already the technical people are talking about getting this aggregate from the slag heaps of South Wales. If that is so, they ought also to be talking about how they will transport 100 million tons of aggregate from South Wales to Maplin. Is it to come down the valleys, along the M4 and through the congested roads of Essex, or will attempts be made to get ships, which are in short supply, to bring it from Cardiff round the coast?
  These problems are currently beginning to worry people. If we are contemplating spending £800 million—and no doubt it will be £3,000 million before it is finished—we ought to be sure that the technical feasibility has been thoroughly studied.
  We are proposing to spend hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers' money on what the chairman of the then British Airways Authority, Peter Masefield, thinks will be a white elephant. That is what he said to the Select Committee on Nationalised Industries, of which I am a member. There are many more desirable projects than that upon which the money should be spent. Believing as I do that Labour will form the next Government, I do not want us to be saddled with this great expenditure when we shall want to improve housing and social services. I therefore hope that the Opposition amendment will be accepted, but if by some chance it should not be, I hope that the Bill will go by the board.
  9.1 p.m.
  Mr. Churchill: I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley) for giving me five minutes of his time.
  The House is invited to endorse what has been referred to as the Maplin decision. With respect, this is not yet a decision of the House. We have not so far had a chance to decide this issue, which has been kicking around for 20 years since the 1953 White Paper. There have been the Gatwick, Stansted and Cublington proposals, all of which have fallen by the wayside. We must be clear that

  767
  Maplin is not the decision of Roskill; it is a political decision taken merely on the grounds that nobody else wanted it.
  The most significant fact to come out of this debate was contained in the opening statement of my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State, who made it clear by the figures he produced and the action proposed at Maplin that there is no longer a requirement for a four-runway airport anywhere in the South-East. He further let slip that in the Government's view there is a requirement for only one additional London runway as far ahead as 1990.
  I know, from speaking to my hon. Friend the Minister for Aerospace and Shipping, that the cost of one additional runway at Gatwick or Stansted is no more than £8 million. We are talking of £870 million for one runway up to 1990. Who can tell whether by then there will still be a requirement for 12,000-ft. slabs of concrete? Fifteen years ago who would have thought that men would have been on the moon on more than one occasion? The rapid changes in technology do not seem to have been thoroughly considered.
  While we must take fully into account the interests of people who have to live with intolerable noise, the House has a duty from the national point of view to consider whether we are right in asking the British taxpayer to spend twice as much on this project as he has been asked to invest in Concorde. The British taxpayers' investment in Concorde represents only half the cost of that project. I cannot see the French pitching in with half the cost of Maplin.
  Manchester is the nation's third airport in terms of air transport movements. In the last two years a significant development has taken place: there has been an increase of half a million in the number of inclusive tour passengers passing through Manchester. With the advanced passenger train, Manchester will be no more than one hour from central London. I am not saying that a third London airport should be in Manchester, Liverpool or anywhere else. I would merely say that this aspect of regional policy has not been looked at properly. We are talking in terms of a £1,000 million investment in South-East England, and that is something about which we who represent northern constituencies can only express
  768
  the gravest concern. We have suffered from depopulation over the years and we have higher rates of unemployment. This colossal magnet in the South-East can only be damaging.
  In conclusion, I quote briefly from page 7 of the Roskill Report:
  "We must surely hesitate before we commit so much of the nation's scarce resources into projects which will show a poor financial return."
  We have waited 20 years for a London airport decision. I believe we can wait a few more months until a co-ordinated plan is brought forward by the Government that tells us exactly where roads and rail links are to go and what is the exact cost in economic, regional and environmental terms of bulldozers sweeping from eastern England to central London. These are things which must be properly considered.
  I certainly cannot support the bogus amendment of the Opposition; nor can I support the Government. I cannot sign, on behalf of my constituents, a blank cheque for what promises to be the most costly white elephant ever to flounder on the shores of our island.
  9.6 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Mulley: I am sure the House will be glad that the hon. Member for Stretford (Mr. Churchill) had an opportunity to address the House, if only briefly. I congratulate him on having, in those few moments, put his finger on the main point before us, the enormous cost on the one hand and its concentration in one part of the country on the other. As another Member for a northern constituency, I have a great deal of sympathy with his thesis.
  Throughout the debate there has been at least a consensus that we are tonight being asked to take a very important, far-reaching decision. I would also say there has been an almost unanimous view that we are asked to do so with an inadequate amount of information. Even hon. Gentlemen like the hon. Member for Gillingham (Mr. Burden), who says he will now support the Bill, said there were changed circumstances. I gather it is those changed circumstances which persuaded him to change his mind. But certainly everyone, I believe, would agree that the circumstances today are different from what they were in March 1971; and while I do not know what the answer

  769
  would be if my hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Mr. Hugh Jenkins) had his way and we faced this matter on a free vote, I believe everyone who has listened to the debate would agree that the bias of debate has been very much along the lines that the Government ought to pause before they commit us to this enormous decision.
  I will not go into details now because time is short but, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) said in moving the amendment, there is a near-unanimous view of experts that at least the Government case for the kind of development they are proposing is not proven; and in essence the amendment of my right hon. Friend is simply saying that we need more information and a little more time.
  I want to take up points made by the hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Tebbit).
  Mr. Burden: I would tell the right hon. Gentleman that the differences I have seen have been on the question of the airport. As far as I can see, there has been no question about the desirability of a deep-sea port at Maplin, and this is a very important part of the concept.
  Mr. Mulley: An interesting point about this debate is that some people say "I accept your conclusion but I do not agree with your argument" while others say "I accept the arguments but come to a different conclusion". That is the kind of debate it has been, and had it not been for Roskill and the third London airport debate we would never have heard about a new seaport and new industrial and commercial development. Since the hon. Member for Gillingham has said that what has persuaded him to change his mind is the prospect for commercial and industrial development there, I wish to know from the Minister tonight what this is to consist of. We got from the Government an indication that there were to be licences to run a few sweet shops and a hot-dog stall. If so, I cannot see why this selling off of land for commercial purposes figures so largely in the financial effects of the Bill set out in the Explanatory and Financial Memorandum. We need to get it clear. If there is to be no industrial and commercial development, it may be that we shall have the support of the hon.
  770
  Member for Gillingham in the Lobby tonight.
  I want to deal with the important point made by the hon. Member for Epping which was echoed by his hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Adley). They said that they were against the Bill, but they could not support the Opposition's amendment because they thought it was wrong for the Civil Aviation Authority to be charged with the task of reappraisal.
  We all know that it is the airport that is at issue. If it were not for the question of a third London airport, we would not at this time be facing this decision. Therefore, if we had a reappraisal of the airport situation we would know better whether to go ahead with the whole complex.
  I hope, particularly after the eloquence of the hon. Member for Epping, who asked Ministers to go home and think hard about it, that we may have his support for our reasoned amendment, because, if it were carried, they would go home and think very hard about the whole situation.
  Mr. Tebbit: Then the Opposition should not have couched their amendment in these terms, because it asks the Civil Aviation Authority to reappraise the case for a new airport and seaport complex in the light of the development needs in other parts of the country. They might just as well have asked the PLA to do it.
  Mr. Mulley: I think it is clearly the regional airport complex that we have in mind, but I will try to develop that point further.
  I am sure that the speech by my right hon. Friend the Member for Grimsby, fortified by a devastatingly brilliant speech by the hon. Member for Southend, East (Sir S. McAdden), posed those who support the project with an unanswerable case for a pause.
  We are concerned with an enormous project. I ask any hon. Member who has responsibility for private or commercial investment decisions outside this House whether he would not pause and look at what has happened in the last two years before he committed himself to a decision which would cost as many hundreds of pounds, as this project will cost millions. I am certain that he

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  would need more information. It may be that the Government have been working on it, have got it, and reached their own conclusion, but they have not given the information to this House or to the public.
  We have got changed circumstances. The one example is the Civil Aviation Authority. When we debated that matter in 1971 many hon. Members asked for a national airports plan. They repeated their requests today. The Civil Aviation Authority is now engaged in trying to survey and produce such a plan. If we take a decision today of the kind that we have been asked to take, that plan will be of no use. Does anybody believe that after all the money that we are being asked to commit to this project there will be any left for anywhere else?
  Our objection to the proposals should be studied on the three headings given by my right hon. Friend: need, cost, and, particularly, regional policy.
  Those who suggested that my right hon. Friend was not concerned about noise did him a great injustice. I can tell the House, from my short time as Minister of Aviation many years ago, that he used to pester the life out of me when he had no responsibilities in this sphere at all.
  I think that we are all concerned with the great problem of noise which has been put to us so eloquently by my hon. Friends the Mmbers for Putney, and Brentford and Chiswick (Mr. Barnes) and the hon. Member for Twickenham (Mr. Jessel). How, by taking this decision today, shall we help their constituents about whom we are all concerned?
  We have not had, and I suspect that we shall not have, an assurance that as soon as the new airport, if it comes into being, is operational there will begin a sharp rundown of the traffic at Heathrow, Gatwick, Luton or anywhere else. I predict that for a long time after it comes into being there will be just as much traffic as there is at Heathrow now. People do not want the prospect of relief seven or eight years from now; they want to see the Government doing something about it now.
  Hon. Members: Tonight.
  Mr. Mulley: It would have been helpful if the Government had done something last time. We shall hear what the
  772
  Minister has to say about RTOL, a subject which was developed by my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr. Leslie Huckfield).
  Many people have said that, bearing in mind all the money which was spent on Concorde, there should have been more research on quieter aircraft. We want to try to do something about it in the short term as well as the long term. If we had developed regional airports to a greater extent they would be relieving airports in the London area. The Secretary of State overreached himself when he talked about the regional airports carrying the load of four Heathrows.
  Mr. Rippon: I was talking about the traffic of four Heathrows which would have to be accommodated if it were sent to the regions. I explained that we were considering and that we allowed for a diversion of 25 per cent. of the increased traffic, which would he a great load on the regions.
  Mr. Mulley: It would be a load on the regions because the Government and the last Labour Government did not give any money for the development of regional airports. All airports, with the exception of two of the Scottish airports and the London airports, have to be sustained by the local ratepayers against the background of rising local rates. It seems wholly wrong that there is no money available for regional airport development.
  If the proposal goes through tonight there will be less prospect of that money becoming available in future. It is not very much use complaining about the volume of public expenditure, as many hon. Members did yesterday, and then to vote for this proposal. Air freight, which the hon. Member for Gillingham and a number of other hon. Members mentioned, and charter and package tour traffic could be much more conveniently handled from other airports if only they had the facilities. Does it make sense to bring either people on their holidays or the goods that they are producing for air-freighting from the North and the Midlands all the way to the least convenient part of the country? That system adds to the cost of exports and the cost of holidays.
  We just do not know the beginning of what the total cost will be. Various

  773
  sums from £1,000 million to £3,000 million have been quoted. The open-ended character of the money resolution which we shall be asked to vote later tonight is extremely significant. There is not a jot or an iota of restriction. We shall be asked to issue out of the National Loans Fund and the Consolidated Fund any sums necessary.
  As I read the Bill, it is intended that the Treasury will have power to write off any of these sums as and when they want to. It seems that it is the Government's idea to finance the project by selling off the reclaimed land to the British Airports Authority and public concerns such as the Port of London Authority. British Rail will no doubt be told to carry all the costs of its part of the operation. No doubt the Government will blame the nationalised industries for running deficits when they are merely discharging the obligations that the Government placed upon them. Do the Government really believe that either the British Airports Authority or the Port of London Authority will be able to go through with the enormous investment with which they are being saddled, without substantial Government support?
  I said that we do not yet know what is meant by the industrial and commercial developments. We are being asked to approve the policy without knowing what rail or road links there will be. We also do not know what the routes will be. We do not know the costs.
  I do not wish to make anything of the Concorde situation but I think it is relevant in this context in the way in which it was introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton. I do not want to talk about its merits or demerits. We all congratulate the Minister for Aerospace and Shipping on the efforts he and his officials are making to obtain orders, and we wish Concorde success.
  But I wonder how many hon. Members would have supported the Concorde decision when it was taken if they had had the real facts and figures. In that case we were making a joint decision with another country, which was an added complication. Here the decision is wholly ours. The enormous section of public expenditure that Concorde has commanded must have meant that support for other aircraft development, such
  774
  as quieter engines and RTOL was restricted.
  I wonder whether Maplin has already claimed its first casualty. I understand from the staff of the hovertrain development that it is almost certain that there will be an announcement next week that Government support for the development will be withdrawn and the project wound up. Reports have already appeared in the Press that the linear motor section will be used only for the slow requirement for an urban transit system and acquired by Hawker Siddeley. We shall not be effective in hovertrain development if the decision is taken. I hope that we shall have from the Minister for Aerospace and Shipping, who I think is involved in the matter, an assurance that at least it can be reconsidered.
  I am advised that in April the European Commission will consider giving some of its funds for such developments. If it is wound up next week, our hovertrain project will not be in the running and the French and the Germans will have it all to themselves.
  I am told that there is a good prospect of our people obtaining an important Canadian contract. It would be a great pity if because of Budget stringency, no doubt conditioned by the enormous chunk of Maplin expenditure coming on to the Department of the Environment's Estimates, it had to be abandoned. I hope we shall have a clear assurance that the matter will be looked at again.
  I think there is a consensus of feeling among all hon. Members that the shoe will probably pinch hardest as a result of tonight's decision, if it is taken, in the whole of regional policy. If we need a text for the debate, I suggest that we adopt the words of the hon. Member for Southend, East, who asked his right hon. and learned Friend "How will you explain to the EEC that we want money for regional development, our own money and some of yours, when we are pouring our own regional money down the drain at Maplin?" Undoubtedly there is growth in South-East Essex. Imposing Maplin on the problem there will mean that the new town will have to be larger. We are putting the great majority of such money as we shall have for regional development into a region that neither wants it nor needs it.

  775
  The Secretary of State raised a few eyebrows when he said that if this money were not spent at Maplin it would be spent elsewhere. This is what worries me stiff. I do not see how we shall get the money we want for railways or for roads in any other part of the country than the South East because of the enormous sums involved in this project.
  Mr. Rippon: I meant that the money would be spent on aircraft facilities elsewhere.
  Mr. Mulley: If the Secretary of State looks at the text of his speech in HANSARD tomorrow, he will see that that passage in his speech came in the part in which he dealt with expenditure. Therefore, may we have a clear assurance from the Government today that as a result of the Bill and what it entails there will be no cut in transport support for other parts of the country and that we shall not have any reduction in regional expenditure elsewhere? I repeat that if there is one part of the country that does not need a new seaport or new industry and new commerce, it is the South East.
  I can think of many important parts of the country where there is serious unemployment and which need help. My hon. Friend the Member for Acton (Mr. Spearing) mentioned the steel industry. There will be some investment in my constituency in this respect, but technological processes will mean that employment in the steel industry will decline and we shall need new industries in the area. What chance have the former steel towns and similar industries of obtaining Government support for regional development when so large a portion of Government expenditure will be devoted to this project—a project for which we feel no case has been made in this debate?
  If we pass the Bill, we shall put ourselves on an escalator of rising prices. We shall be giving an open cheque to the Government and we shall show that we have learned nothing from experience. We shall also find ourselves an a slippery slope of decisions from which it will be difficult to extricate ourselves once we become involved in this process.
  What the Government are asking us for tonight is not to give a decision in
  776
  principle but to commit a large share of public expenditure in one direction. They are pre-empting matters for 10 years, even 20 years, ahead—not only for the present Government but for their successors—involving a large slice of public expenditure cake. This may well be our last chance to cry "Halt". The Government have not provided us with the full information we need. They will not even allow this matter to come before a Private Bill Committee to test the case for the Government's proposal. We have tabled a later amendment which we hope will reverse that process.
  There is widespread public concern about what is proposed and I should like to re-echo the words of the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr. Crouch) who asked the Government "What is the rush?" I ask hon. Members on both sides of the House to call for a pause before we rush headlong into a decision which will involve such vast expenditure. Therefore, I hope they will vote for our Amendment.
  9.30 p.m.
  The Minister for Aerospace and Shipping (Mr. Michael Heseltine): I am sure that all those right hon. and hon. Members who have taken part in the debate will realise the immense interest and the real concern of those whose interests are very closely associated and involved in air transportation in and around the South-East of England. No one speaking from this Dispatch Box would wish to minimise the concern that people feel.
  Perhaps I might begin by taking up one point made by the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley) and help his memory about the view of the present Government of one of the major advantages which would flow from a decision to support the Maplin project.
  It was my right hon. Friend the then Secretary of State for Trade and Industry who announced on 27th July 1971 that he believed that the Government did not consider it would be necessary to construct any new runways at Heathrow, Gatwick, Luton and Stansted in the foreseeable future. He said that the first benefit of the Maplin decision was that it would be possible to abandon the safeguarding of the line of the second runway at Gatwick. That followed from the

  777
  decision to recommend the Maplin proposal. My right hon. Friend's next announcement was that the Government foresaw the possibility of dispensing with Stansted as a public transport airport and possibly closing it altogether when the third London airport became operational. My right hon. Friend's fourth announcement was that the Government did not foresee a need for Luton to continue as a major public transport airport serving the London area once the third airport was available to accommodate the services now using Luton.
  The House will understand the concern of those who believe that the Bill should be given a Second Reading to make it clear that all those announcements follow from the Government's decision to build an airport at Maplin.
  Mr. Mulley: I was hoping that the hon. Gentleman would go on to say that it would also reduce traffic at Heathrow. Most of the argument has been about that.
  Mr. Heseltine: When I deal with the scale of the problem, about which we are all concerned, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will realise the real difficulties which would arise in trying to reduce the level of use at Heathrow. One problem which would follow if we did not find an alternative for Heathrow is that there would be a massive increase in traffic at Heathrow, Gatwick, Luton and Stansted which everyone who lives anywhere near those airports is abundantly aware is taking place relentlessly season by season on an ever-rising slope. That is the reality, and all right hon. and hon. Members who have constituencies there and who have visited the area are aware of the persistent noise nuisance which gets worse, and it is impossible to lose sight of that background to the debate—
  Mr. Spearing: Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that point?
  Mr. Heseltine: A large number of questions have been put to me, and I have a mass of statistics and figures which I want to give the House. If I give way to the hon. Gentleman I shall find it difficult to answer all the points which have been put to me.
  Mr. Spearing: On 28th May 1971 I asked what was the Government's intention in setting out their total proposals
  778
  on this matter. The hon. Gentleman fluffed it away. Why have not the Government produced full documentation as a background to what we have before us today?
  Mr. Heseltine: It is odd that the hon. Gentleman has never pressed for a debate on the subject—
  Mr. Spearing: Documents.
  Mr. Heseltine: It is only now, within a few weeks of a decision being taken, that a great public furore has arisen. If the Opposition had been so concerned, they could have sought a debate on the subject when the matter could have been dealt with at greater length.
  Turning to the questions which have been put to me, I deal first with those raised by two of my hon. Friends who have constituency interests. My hon. Friend the Member for Essex, South-East (Sir Bernard Braine) raised, as did other hon. Members, his general concern about the use of land reclaimed as part of the Maplin complex for industrial or commercial purposes. When my right hon. Friend the then Secretary of State for the Environment made his announcement to the House on 2nd February 1972, he said:
  "We do not think it would be appropriate for primary industry such as steel works, oil refineries and petrochemical works to be located at Maplin. … It is too early to take decisions about promoting a large industrial estate as part of the Maplin complex. We think that options should be kept open and that demand for secondary industry should be considered as it arises in the light of our regional, industrial and environmental policies and our developing relationships with Europe."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 2nd February 1972; Vol. 830, c. 446–7.]
  That makes it clear that the issue was a difficult one, because there were a large number of commercial activities and important quasi-industrial activities associated with airports. Hotels are an example. Obviously it is necessary for the Maplin Development Authority to have power to sell land for that purpose. In considering this question, appreciating that we were dealing with a situation that would develop over the rest of this century, we realised that it might be necessary in future to have power to use the reclaimed land for a number of purposes. But we ruled out the one thing we thought essential to rule out, primary industrial use.

  779
  It was simply a desire to keep options open in a way that would commend itself to the House, I believe, within the assurances that have been given, and subject to the planning and regional policies of the Government, that led us to take the powers embraced in the Bill. It would be perfectly reasonable to have a detailed examination of this in Committee, if the Bill gets there. It would not be fair to say that my right hon. and learned Friend or the Government have in any way misled the House. It was clear that we had distinguished between primary and secondary industry when we took the original decision.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Southend, East (Sir S. McAdden) asked about the cocklers and I can assure him that it is the Government's intention that, where it can be shown that those who obtained a reasonable proportion of their income from this activity find that they can no longer continue to do so, compensation will be payable. I can also assure him that Havengore Creek should now be able to remain open as a result of a decision to increase the height of the bridge.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Essex, South-East raised the important question of the burden of this development on local ratepayers. He was obviously making the point that this was a national development. The House will be aware that we are now looking at the whole question of the impact on local government finance. We are examining the effect of the rate support grant on various problems associated with the needs element related to development areas such as South-East Essex where there is faster growth. [Interruption.] I use the expression "development areas" in the sense of regional policy, an area developing fast. We are looking at the effect on the needs element in the rate support grant to see whether there is need for adjustment to take account of the special pressures on areas which are growing fast. This would include South-East Essex and a number of other areas where the problems are not quite so acute.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop) raised the important point of the bird migration. I apologise to him for not being in the House to hear his speech. I have read
  780
  a large amount of the correspondence we have had on this subject and I have a detailed note of the comments he made which, I think he will agree, broadly cover the points he has made to my hon. and right hon. Friends in this matter. Bird migration and the residence habits of birds present real difficulty. The question was looked at and dealt with by Roskill.
  I know that my hon. Friend quoted from paragraph 8.41 of the report. Perhaps he will not regard it as going too far if I said that he should also have quoted paragraph 8.42 of the report which does not deal with the difficulties associated with the problem but sets out the conclusions on this subject.
  Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: Before my hon. Friend leaves that subject——
  Mr. Heseltine: I am not leaving it. Perhaps I can quote the Roskill Report on this important subject. It said:
  "Our conclusion is that Foulness does carry a greater potential risk than the inland sites for those on board aircraft although it involves a lesser potential risk for those on the ground. The size and the difference in risk is not great. However much we abhor the prospect of disaster the evidence does not suggest that we should be justified in allowing this Foulness disadvantage to exert a major influence on our choice of site."
  Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: If my hon. Friend had paid the House the courtesy of being present when I spoke, he would have known that the paragraph which he has quoted and about which he asked me had already been quoted before I made my speech, by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Bedfordshire (Mr. Hastings).
  Mr. Heseltine: I fully understand that. There are rather more hon. Members present now than when my hon. Friend spoke and when I was not here. I think it fair to present the whole picture to the House. I have tried to do so in as fair a way as I can. This is a difficult issue.
  Perhaps I can provide for the House a number of other factors which are not so widely known. First, we have carried out a survey which was conducted on United Kingdom aircraft operating throughout the world and we know that on an average there was an annual incidence of bird strike of some 280 occasions during the course of any one year in

  781
  the six-year period 1966–71. This has a very small effect. It represents a bird-strike rate of 0·0003 per cent. of aircraft movements. It is perfectly true, of course, that with the larger incidence now associated with wide-bodied jets the risk goes up, but it is equally true that the safety factors built into the engines of wide-bodied jets have been designed to take account of this need for an additional strengthening of the engines. I believe, therefore, that there is a balancing factor there.
  All in all, although it is a matter of which we are certainly aware and about which everybody is concerned, there appears to be no overriding reason to reject Maplin on this particular ground. We are carrying out two surveys to ensure that the effect of bird presence is minimised, first by moving the feeding grounds of some of the birds which inhabit that area, and we are also studying the effects of migratory bird patterns in order to know as much as possible about this subject. I hope my hon. Friend will accept that we are aware of his apprehensions, but these were considered by Roskill and we have seen no reason to change the view of Roskill on that subject.
  I now turn to the main subject of the debate tonight. The crucial first question to which the House has directed itself is whether there is a need to create a third London airport by 1980. That is the crucial question that has dominated a large number of speeches. Perhaps I can refresh the memory of hon. Members. The Roskill figures were that by 1975 there would be 36·1 million passengers at the four London airports, 60·7 million in 1981 and 82·7 million in 1985. It was also calculated how these would be translated into aircraft movements, and the commissions views were that in 1975 there would be 392,000 movements, in 1981 there would be 488,000 movements and in 1985 there would be 545,000 movements. It was on the basis of these figures that Roskill came to the conclusion that here would be a need by around 1980—and I use the word "around" deliberately—for the first runway of the third London airport.
  It has been suggested that Roskill ignored the fact that wide-bodied jets were a phenomenon to be increasingly expected as the century went on. If one divides the number of passengers by the
  782
  number of movements, it is clear that Roskill did not ignore this factor at all and it is easily to be found that he believed that the present figures of 70 passengers per movement would rise to 97 by 1975, to 133 by 1981 and to 162 by 1985. In other words, the Roskill Committee looked at the introduction of wide-bodied jets and took it into account in its calculations.
  It is perfectly true, as the right hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) said, that it is a continuing feature of the work of my Department to keep abreast of the changes in the figures to see whether there is need to update or review the position. Of course, at the time of the discussion on the siting of the runways for the third London airport we published a few figures which were part of the updating survey which we expect to do continually as part of the routine work of the Department. I will willingly produce any figures the House requires to indicate the scale of the updating process, but all the figures my Department has produced indicate that Roskill was cautious. In fact, the figures have gone ahead, in our estimation, of what he reckoned at the time. This is allowing for the fact that we have the ability today to be even more precise about the number of wide-bodied jets to be included in any mix that we want to come about.
  So the view I would put to the House quite clearly is that the evidence undoubtedly is that Roskill had got the trends right but did not anticipate the rate at which these trends would continue to go upwards and did not take into account the fact that Southend would have to be closed as part of the air traffic situation in view of the decision to go to Maplin.
  Mr. Crosland: I was aware that the hon. Gentleman's own Department's estimates were larger than Roskill's, contrary to what the Secretary of State said today. But could the hon. Gentleman confirm what I myself said—that the Civil Aviation Authority is now leading a team project with the airlines to go over all these estimates again and that the team is holding its first meeting next week?
  Mr. Heseltine: Yes, I can do that. Perhaps a letter I have received from the Chairman of the Civil Aviation Authority

  783
  might help. It was dated yesterday. It said:
  "We have in hand as you may have seen a study with BAA and the airlines to assess traffic growth in the London area; results should be available by the beginning of April. It is, however, our view from the material at present available to us that additional airport capacity will be needed in the London area probably by soon after 1980, with a subsequent need for more than one runway some five years thereafter."
  That is the view of the CAA, dated 6th February.
  The other authority in the matter, the British Airports Authority, should also have a voice. Its report for 1971–72 said:
  "For this reason the BAA supports the Maplin project. It is urgently needed both for environmental reasons and also to meet the growth pressures on Heathrow and Gatwick which will be enormous by the late 1970s—the classic 'quart into a pint pot' problem. I cannot stress too strongly the need to get out of the talking stage into the field of action."
  That report was published in the summer of 1972, and I was authorised today by the Chairman of the BAA to say that nothing has intervened since its publication to change his mind in any way.
  If we look at the background against which we face this very considerable growth in aircraft movements and traffic, we have to answer the question about the timing of the third London Airport. The right hon. Member for Grimsby mentioned this point. Do we now need to go forward because we are so certain that we need to open the first runway by 1980? I say to the House—and I think every objective observer would agree—that, however one pushes forward the figures and calculates the extrapolations from them it is clear that one can always say "One more year; a little bit later; we can wait." One can do that, and no one can project with total certainty exactly what the figures are going to be in 1980, 1981 or in 1979. So, on a simple airline basis, or a passenger congestion basis, I have to say that it would be possible always to wait one more year if with certainty at the end of it we were going to go forward, because there can always be that much more congestion, that much more acceptance of safety factor risks. It is always possible to accept these things.
  But the point is that we are convinced, as we have been throughout the investi-
  784
  gations, which took two years and cost £2 million, that there is need at the end of this decade for the third airport for airline reasons. Are we, therefore, entitled to deprive the millions of people who now live under the flight paths of those aircraft using the existing airports of the environmental benefits which can come through this Bill?
  I believe that the answer to that question conclusively must be "No", because there is no prospect, in my view, of an analysis of the figures showing anything different from what everyone who has looked at the problem believes to be the case. Once one has accepted that situation, it is our responsibility to see the wider issue and go forward as fast as we reasonably can. It is that conclusion which should commend itself to the House in supporting the Bill.
  Mr. Crouch: My right hon. Friend keeps referring to Roskill, and I am sure that the House is interested that he should do so. But is he saying that he and the Government were entitled to ignore the Roskill recommendation, which cost £1½ million and took two and a half years to study?
  Mr. Heseltine: Yes, I believe that the House was entitled to take precisely that decision, because the decision taken by Roskill was essentially a decision taken in a situation where the priorities were largely economic. The decision taken by the Government and recommended in the Bill is that we should take the environmental decision—even at a cost to society at large. I believe that to be the right decision to have been taken.
  There is one other thing to be said in terms of the introduction of wide-bodied jets. It is true that one can delay because people have got so used to the intolerable noise around our airports that they will put up with it a little longer. But as the wide-bodied jets come into operation. so the public demand for quieter aircraft will grow. There will be increasing discontent if we, as politicians, have not taken the decision to do all that we reasonably can to protect the environment in areas where so many people live. So if one accepts that the arguments on environmental grounds are overwhelmingly to meet the need which the figures clearly indicate to exist, as quickly as possible, the question then—which was

  785
  the preoccupation of hon. Members—was: how does one meet the need?
  Putting forward one of the alternatives, which I think the House would reject out of hand, one can simply, in aviation terms, use the existing airports. One could build a second runway at Gatwick and do various things to cram more people into the existing runways if one were prepared for all the environmental consequences that that would involve. But I do not believe that the House, or certainly the right hon. Member for Grimsby, would find that solution in any way tolerable. That solution can be left out of consideration.
  The next concern is the possibility of in some way moving the airport or the demand for the airport into one of the regions. Here the House will be familiar with the work done by Roskill in analysing the origin and destination of the people who were using the airports of the South-East of England. One of my hon. Friends asked whether this did not indicate that people used the hotels on the night before they took off or the night after landing, thereby showing themselves as coming from the South-East of England. In preparing for the debate I wanted to look at that specific point, for it was dealt with. The Roskill research teams ignored the night preceding take-off or the night following landing, deliberately to exclude the people who simply came up to spend a night in London before going somewhere else or remained here during the night after they landed. So the 80 per cent. figure which is the figure which represents that element of the total use of South-East England airports, which is destined for or has originated in the South-East, took into account the fact that people were moving in and out and using hotels for one night of their journey.
  Mr. John Tilney: How does my hon. Friend explain that last year more than 50 per cent. of the 120,000 travellers Cambrian took inter-lined at Heathrow, which means that they came from the North of England?
  Mr. Heseltine: I do not have the particular figures applying to Cambrian, which are very important and which I wish to look at. But 120,000 in the con-
  786
  text of the 13 million people who use Heathrow is a relatively small figure in the general situation.
  It has then been suggested that we should find ways of dealing with the traffic by pushing it out into the regions. In this context I have been asked whether I can give any assurances about the views of the CAA, particularly in the context of the survey now being carried out into national airport requirements. I can help my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol. North-East (Mr. Adley) by saying that the CAA certainly will look at Severnside and deal with that as urgently as possible. It is the intention to produce a national plan for our airport movements.
  Mr. Churchill: Can my hon. Friend give a further assurance that as the CAA accepts the need on technical grounds for a second runway at Manchester Ringway we shall not be told, when this needs to go ahead in the next four or five years, that all resources for runway and airport expansion are already swallowed up by Maplin?
  Mr. Heseltine: My hon. Friend will appreciate that the CAA deals entirely with airline matters, and matters of planning and resources have nothing to do with the CAA. I do not think that it could.
  Mr. Mulley: Will the Government give support to regional airports?
  Mr. Heseltine: Of course, because it is one of the factors that follow from the whole analysis, that the number of people wanting to travel in the regions is growing in line with but not as fast as those who want to travel in the South-East of England. Therefore, if we are to cater for those—and they have as much entitlement to be catered for as those in the South-East—there must be support, it follows, for regional airport development. This is why the CAA is doing all this work on this matter.
  I was asked whether the Channel Tunnel would siphon off so much of the demand that there would be no need for a third airport. The Roskill Commission looked into this question, and we have looked very carefully at it. If one takes a 400 miles radius of London and assumes that a very high proportion of

  787
  the traffic goes by APT through the tunnel, one can conceivably reckon that one or two years' growth—the latest figures indicate less, but Roskill suggested that amount—might be affected by constructing the Channel Tunnel, but this in no way alters the general situation in which we need to provide, in the time scale which we are discussing, for a third airport in the South-East of England.
  My hon. Friends have pressed me on the question of VTOL technologies. One thing which perhaps hon. Members did not quite take into account is that most of the aircraft which will be flying in the later part of this decade and into the next are totally predictable. We know about the jets and the mass transit carriers of the '80s. It is perfectly true that there are one or two areas in which new projects could come forward and enter service in the 1980s but they could be matched by existing aircraft flying today which will be flying in the 1980s. They include the Super VC 10, the 707, the BAC Ill and the Tridents. These will still be in service and it will not be possible for this country alone to say to airlines all over the world "You cannot use this particular aircraft on our landing
  strips." If we did so, the reprisals against British airlines flying outside this country would obviously be immediate.
  It is quite clear that we must be preoccupied in trying to keep abreast of new technologies now available, but hon. Members who have pointed to the large bills to be met over 20 years—some said around £800 million—on this development, perhaps do not understand that it costs taxpayers of this country nearly £300 million to develop one engine for one aircraft of the quieter jet type such as the RB211 for the L1011. It is no good saying that we should switch resources and thinking that that would have the effect which hon. Members appear to believe.
  This has been a wide-ranging debate, and hon. Members feel deeply involved in this subject, but the fact is that we have a massive growth situation largely oriented to the South-East of England and the choice is either to go to Maplin or, what I believe is unacceptable, to develop airports already in use.
  Question put, That the amendment be made:—
  The House divided: Ayes 169, Noes 201.

  Division No. 52.]

  AYES

  [10.0 p.m.

  Allen, Scholefield

  Delargy, Hugh

  John, Brynmor

  Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

  Dell, Rt. Hn. Edmund

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Ashton, Joe

  Dormand, J. D.

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Atkinson, Norman

  Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

  Jones, Barry (Flint, E.)

  Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

  Driberg, Tom

  Kelley, Richard

  Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Dunn, James A.

  Kerr, Russell

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Dunnett, Jack

  Kinnock, Neil

  Bishop, E. S.

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Lamborn, Harry

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Evans, Fred

  Lamond, James

  Booth, Albert

  Ewing, Harry

  Latham, Arthur

  Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

  Faulds, Andrew

  Lawson, George

  Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

  Fisher, Mrs. Doris(B'ham, Ladywood)

  Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Buchan, Norman

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Leonard, Dick

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Lestor, Miss Joan

  Cant, R. B.

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

  Carmichael, Neil

  Foot, Michael

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  Lipton, Marcus

  Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

  Freeson, Reginald

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

  Gilbert, Dr. John

  Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

  Cohen, Stanley

  Ginsburg, David (Dewsbury)

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Concannon, J. D.

  Golding, John

  McCartney, Hugh

  Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

  Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

  McGuire, Michael

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Cronin, John

  Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

  Mackie, John

  Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

  Grimond, Rt. Hn. J.

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Hamilton, William (File, W.)

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

  Hardy, Peter

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Dalyell, Tarn

  Hattersley, Roy

  Mallalieu. J. P. W.(Huddersfield, E.)

  Darling, Rt. Hn. George

  Horam. John

  Marquand, David

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Huckfield, Leslie

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Mayhew, Christopher

  Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove)

  Janner, Greville

  Meacher, Michael

  Deakins, Eric

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

  de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Jenkins. Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechtord)

  Millan, Bruce

  Miller, Dr. M. S.

  Pendry, Tom

  Tomney, Frank

  Milne, Edward

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Tope, Graham

  Moate, Roger

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

  Urwin, T. W.

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Prescott, John

  Wainwrlght, Edwin

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Richard, Ivor

  Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

  Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

  Roberts,Rt.Hn.Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Moyle, Roland

  Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Wallace, George

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Roper, John

  Watkins, David

  Murray, Ronald King

  Rose, Paul B.

  Weitzman, David

  Ogden, Eric

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  O'Malley, Brian

  Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Orbach, Maurice

  Skinner, Dennis

  Whitlock, William

  Orme, Stanley

  Small, William

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Spearing, Nigel

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Padley, Walter

  Stallard, A. W.

  Wilson. Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

  Palmer, Arthur

  Steel, David

  Woof, Robert

  Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

  Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

  Pardoe, John

  Stoddart, David (Swindon)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Parker, John (Dagenham)

  Strang, Gavin

  Mr. Donald Coleman and

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  Mr. Joseph Harper.

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.)

  NOES

  Adley, Robert

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  McLaren, Martin

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Fortescue, Tim

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Foster, Sir John

  Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Maurice (Farnham)

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  Fox, Marcus

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

  Fraser, Rt. Hn. Hugh (St'fford & Stone)

  Maddan, Martin

  Astor, John

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Madel, David

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

  Mather, Carol

  Awdry, Daniel

  Glyn, Dr. Alan

  Mawby, Ray

  Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

  Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B.

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Bell, Ronald

  Goodhart, Philip

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Goodhew, Victor

  Money, Ernie

  Benyon, W.

  Gorst, John

  Monks, Mrs. Connie

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Bitten, John

  Gray, Hamish

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

  Blaker, Peter

  Green, Alan

  Morrison, Charles

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Murton, Oscar

  Body, Richard

  Grylls, Michael

  Neave, Airey

  Boscawen, Hn. Robert

  Gummer, J. Selwyn

  Nott, John

  Bowden, Andrew

  Gurden, Harold

  Onslow, Cranley

  Brinton. Sir Tatton

  Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

  Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Page, Rt. Hn Graham (Crosby)

  Bruce-Gardyne, J.

  Hannam, John (Exeter)

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Bryan, Sir Paul

  Harrison, Brian (Maldon)

  Parkinson, Cecil

  Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N&M)

  Hastings, Stephen

  Peel, Sir John

  Burden, F. A.

  Havers, Sir Michael

  Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Hawkins, Paul

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Campbell, Rt.Hn.G.(Moray&Nairn)

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Carlisle, Mark

  Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Heseltine, Michael

  Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

  Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Raison, Timothy

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

  Churchill, W. S.

  Holland, Philip

  Redmond, Robert

  Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

  Hornby, Richard

  Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Hornsby-Smith, Rt.Hn.Dame Patricia

  Rees, Peter (Dover)

  Cockeram, Eric

  Howe, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Cooke, Robert

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

  Cooper, A. E.

  Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

  Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey

  Cordle, John

  Hunt, John

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Corfield, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Costain, A. P.

  James, David

  Rost, Peter

  Critchley, Julian

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Crowder, F. P.

  Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutsford)

  Jessel, Toby

  Scott, Nicholas

  d'Avlgdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Dean, Paul

  Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Dixon, Piers

  Kellett-Bowman, Mrs. Elaine

  Shersby, Michael

  Dodds-Parker. Sir Douglas

  Kimball, Marcus

  Simeons, Charles

  Drayson, G. B.

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Sinclair, Sir George

  du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Kinsey, J. R.

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Dykes, Hugh

  Knight, Mrs. Jill

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

  Eden, Rt. Hn. Sir John

  Knox, David

  Speed, Keith

  Elliot, Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Lambton, Lord

  Spence, John

  Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne, N.)

  Lamont, Norman

  Stainton, Keith

  Emery, Peter

  Lane, David

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Eyre, Reginald

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Stewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper)

  Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

  Le Marchant, Spencer

  Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)

  Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Stokes, John

  Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

  Longden, Sir Gilbert

  Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  McCrindle, R. A.

  Sutcliffe, John

  790

  791

  Tapsell, Peter

  Tugendhat, Christopher

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Turton, Rt. Hn. Sir Robin

  Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

  Worsley, Marcus

  Tebbit, Norman

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

  Temple, John M.

  Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

  Younger, Hn. George

  Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

  Warren, Kenneth

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Mr. Walter Clegg and Mr. Bernard Weatherill.

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Whitelaw. Rt. Hn. William

  Trafford, Dr. Anthony

  Question accordingly negatived.
  Main Question put forthwith pursuant to Standing Order No. 39. (Amendment on second or third reading):—
  The House divided: Ayes 195, Noes 172.

  Division No. 53.]

  AYES

  [10.12 p.m.

  Alison, Michael (Barkston Ash)

  Glyn, Dr. Alan

  Montgomery, Fergus

  Allason, James (Hemel Hempstead)

  Godber, Rt. Hn. J. B

  Morgan-Giles, Rear-Adm.

  Amery, Rt. Hn. Julian

  Goodhart, Philip

  Morrison, Charles

  Archer, Jeffrey (Louth)

  Goodhew, Victor

  Murton, Oscar

  Astor, John

  Gorst, John

  Neave, Airey

  Atkins, Humphrey

  Grant, Anthony (Harrow, C.)

  Nott, John

  Awdry, Daniel

  Gray, Hamish

  Onslow, Cranley

  Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone)

  Green, Alan

  Oppenheim, Mrs. Sally

  Bell, Ronald

  Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St. Edmunds)

  Page, Rt. Hn. Graham (Crosby)

  Bennett, Dr. Reginald (Gosport)

  Grylls, Michael

  Page, John (Harrow, W.)

  Benyon, W.

  Gummer, J. Selwyn

  Parkinson, Cecil

  Berry, Hn. Anthony

  Gurden, Harold

  Peel, Sir John

  Biffen, John

  Hall, Miss Joan (Keighley)

  Peyton, Rt. Hn. John

  Blaker, Peter

  Hall, John (Wycombe)

  Pike, Miss Mervyn

  Boardman, Tom (Leicester, S.W.)

  Hannam, John (Exeter)

  Price, David (Eastleigh)

  Boscawen, Hn. Robert

  Hastings, Stephen

  Prior, Rt. Hn. J. M. L.

  Bowden, Andrew

  Havers, Sir Michael

  Pym, Rt. Hn. Francis

  Brinton, Sir Tatton

  Hawkins, Paul

  Raison, Timothy

  Brown, Sir Edward (Bath)

  Hayhoe, Barney

  Rawlinson, Rt. Hn. Sir Peter

  Bruce-Gordyne, J.

  Heath, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Redmond, Robert

  Bryan, Sir Paul

  Heseltine, Michael

  Reed, Laurance (Bolton, E.)

  Buchanan-Smith, Alick (Angus, N&M)

  Higgins, Terence L.

  Rees, Peter (Dover)

  Burden, F. A.

  Hill, James (Southampton, Test)

  Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon

  Butler, Adam (Bosworth)

  Holland, Philip

  Ridley, Hn. Nicholas

  Campbell, Rt.Hn.G. (Moray & Nairn)

  Hornby, Richard

  Rippon, Rt. Hn. Geoffrey

  Carlisle, Mark

  Hornsby-Smith, Rt.Hn. Dame Patricia

  Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks)

  Cary, Sir Robert

  Howe, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey)

  Chataway, Rt. Hn. Christopher

  Howell, David (Guildford)

  Rost, Peter

  Chichester-Clark, R.

  Howell, Ralph (Norfolk, N.)

  Russell, Sir Ronald

  Clark, William (Surrey, E.)

  Hunt, John

  St. John-Stevas, Norman

  Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)

  Irvine, Bryant Godman (Rye)

  Scott, Nicholas

  Cockeram, Eric

  James, David

  Scott-Hopkins, James

  Cooke, Robert

  Jenkin, Patrick (Woodford)

  Shaw, Michael (Sc'b'gh & Whitby)

  Cooper, A. E.

  Jenkins, Hugh (Putney)

  Shersby, Michael

  Cordle, John

  Jennings, J. C. (Burton)

  Simeons, Charles

  Corfield, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick

  Jessel, Toby

  Sinclair, Sir George

  Costain, A. P.

  Johnson Smith, G. (E. Grinstead)

  Skeet, T. H. H.

  Critchley, Julian

  Jones, Arthur (Northants, S.)

  Smith, Dudley (W'wick & L'mington)

  Crowder, F. P.

  Kellett-Bowman, Mrs. Elaine

  Speed, Keith

  Davies, Rt. Hn. John (Knutstord)

  Kimball, Marcus

  Spence, John

  d'Avigdor-Goldsmid, Sir Henry

  King, Evelyn (Dorset, S.)

  Stainton, Keith

  Kinsey, J. R.

  Stanbrook, Ivor

  Dean, Paul

  Knight, Mrs. Jill

  Stewart-Smith, Geoffrey (Belper)

  Dixon, Piers

  Knox, David

  Stodart, Anthony (Edinburgh, W.)

  Dodds-Parker, Sir Douglas

  Lambton, Lord

  Stokes, John

  Drayson, G. B.

  Lamont, Norman

  Stuttaford, Dr. Tom

  du Cann, Rt. Hn. Edward

  Lane, David

  Sutcliffe, John

  Dykes, Hugh

  Langford-Holt, Sir John

  Tapsell, Peter

  Eden, Rt. Hn. Sir John

  Le Marchant, Spencer

  Taylor, Sir Charles (Eastbourne)

  Elliot. Capt. Walter (Carshalton)

  Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)

  Taylor, Frank (Moss Side)

  Elliott, R. W. (N'c'tle-upon-Tyne.N.)

  Longden, Sir Gilbert

  Temple, John M.

  Emery, Peter

  McLaren, Martin

  Thatcher, Rt. Hn. Mrs. Margaret

  Eyre, Reginald

  Maclean, Sir Fitzroy

  Thomas, John Stradling (Monmouth)

  Fenner, Mrs. Peggy

  Macmillan, Rt. Hn. Maurice (Farnham)

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. Peter (Hendon, S.)

  Finsberg, Geoffrey (Hampstead)

  McNair-Wilson, Michael

  Thompson, Sir Richard (Croydon, S.)

  Fisher, Nigel (Surbiton)

  Maddan, Martin

  Trafford, Dr. Anthony

  Fletcher-Cooke, Charles

  Madel, David

  Tugendhat, Christopher

  Fookes, Miss Janet

  Mather, Carol

  Turton, Rt. Hn. Sir Robin

  Fortescue, Tim

  Mawby, Ray

  Vaughan, Dr. Gerard

  Foster, Sir John

  Meyer, Sir Anthony

  Walder, David (Clitheroe)

  Fox, Marcus

  Mills, Stratton (Belfast, N.)

  Walker, Rt. Hn. Peter (Worcester)

  Gibson-Watt, David

  Money, Ernie

  Ward, Dame Irene

  Gilmour, Ian (Norfolk, C.)

  Monks, Mrs. Connie

  Warren, Kenneth

  Warren, Kenneth

  Woodhouse, Hn. Christopher

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES:

  Wells, John (Maidstone)

  Worsley, Marcus

  Mr. Bernard Weathcrill and

  Whitelaw, Rt. Hn. William

  Wylie, Rt. Hn. N. R.

  Mr. Walter Clegg.

  Wiggin, Jerry

  Younger, Hn. George

  NOES

  Allen, Scholefield

  Ginsburg, David (Dewsbury)

  Morris, Charles R. (Openshaw)

  Archer, Peter (Rowley Regis)

  Golding, John

  Morris, Rt. Hn. John (Aberavon)

  Ashton, Joe

  Grant, John D. (Islington, E.)

  Moyle, Roland

  Atkinson, Norman

  Griffiths, Eddie (Brightside)

  Mulley, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)

  Griffiths, Will (Exchange)

  Murray, Ronald King

  Benn, Rt. Hn. Anthony Wedgwood

  Grlmond, Rt. Hn. J.

  Ogden, Eric

  Bennett, James (Glasgow, Bridgeton)

  Hamilton, William (Fife, W.)

  O'Malley, Brian

  Bidwell, Sydney

  Hardy, Peter

  Orbach, Maurice

  Bishop, E. S.

  Harrison, Walter (Wakefield)

  Orme, Stanley

  Blenkinsop, Arthur

  Hattersley, Roy

  Owen, Dr. David (Plymouth, Sutton)

  Booth, Albert

  Horam, John

  Padley, Walter

  Boyden, James (Bishop Auckland)

  Houghton, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Palmer, Arthur

  Braine, Sir Bernard

  Huckfield, Leslie

  Pannell, Rt. Hn. Charles

  Brown, Ronald (Shoreditch & F'bury)

  Hughes, Mark (Durham)

  Pardoe, John

  Buchan, Norman

  Janner, Greville

  Parker, John (Dagenham)

  Butler, Mrs. Joyce (Wood Green)

  Jay, Rt. Hn. Douglas

  Pavitt, Laurie

  Cant, R. B.

  Jenkins, Rt. Hn. Roy (Stechford)

  Peart, Rt. Hn. Fred

  Carmichael, Neil

  John, Brynmor

  Pendry, Tom

  Carter, Ray (Birmingh'm, Northfield)

  Johnson, Carol (Lewisham, S.)

  Perry, Ernest G.

  Carter-Jones, Lewis (Eccles)

  Johnson, James (K'ston-on-Hull, W.)

  Prentice, Rt. Hn. Reg.

  Cocks, Michael (Bristol, S.)

  Jones, Barry, (Flint, E.)

  Prescott, John

  Cohen, Stanley

  Kaufman, Gerald

  Richard, Ivor

  Concannon, J. D.

  Kelley, Richard

  Roberts, Rt. Hn. Goronwy (Caernarvon)

  Cox, Thomas (Wandsworth, C.)

  Kerr, Russell

  Rodgers, William (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Crawshaw, Richard

  Kinnock, Nell

  Roper, John

  Cronin, John

  Lamborn, Harry

  Rose, Paul B.

  Crosland, Rt. Hn. Anthony

  Lomond, James

  Ross, Rt. Hn. William (Kilmarnock)

  Crossman, Rt. Hn. Richard

  Latham, Arthur

  Shore, Rt. Hn. Peter (Stepney)

  Cunningham, G. (Islington, S.W.)

  Lawson, George

  Skinner, Dennis

  Cunningham, Dr. J. A. (Whitehaven)

  Lee, Rt. Hn. Frederick

  Small, William

  Dalyell, Tam

  Leonard, Dick

  Spearing, Nigel

  Darling, Rt. Hn. George

  Lestor, Miss Joan

  Stallard, A. W.

  Davies, Denzil (Llanelly)

  Lewis, Arthur (W. Ham, N.)

  Steel, David

  Davies, Ifor (Gower)

  Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)

  Stewart, Rt. Hn. Michael (Fulham)

  Davis, Clinton (Hackney, C.)

  Lipton, Marcus

  Stoddart, David (Swindon)

  Davis, Terry (Bromsgrove)

  Lomas, Kenneth

  Strang, Gavin

  Deakins, Eric

  Lyon, Alexander W. (York)

  Summerskill, Hn. Dr. Shirley

  de Freitas, Rt. Hn. Sir Geoffrey

  Mabon, Dr. J. Dickson

  Thomas, Rt. Hn. George (Cardiff, W.)

  Delargy, Hugh

  McAdden, Sir Stephen

  Deli, Rt. Hn. Edmund

  McCartney, Hugh

  Tomney, Frank

  Dormand, J. D.

  McGuire, Michael

  Tope, Graham

  Douglas, Dick (Stirlingshire, E.)

  Mackenzie, Gregor

  Urwin, T. W.

  Douglas-Mann, Bruce

  Mackie, John

  Wainwright, Edwin

  Driberg, Tom

  Mackintosh, John P.

  Walden, Brian (B'm'ham, All Saints)

  Dunn, James A.

  McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, C.)

  Walker, Harold (Doncaster)

  Dunnett, Jack

  McNamara, J. Kevin

  Wallace, George

  Edwards, Robert (Bilston)

  Mahon, Simon (Bootle)

  Watkins, David

  Evans, Fred

  Mallalieu, J. P. W. (Huddersfield, E.)

  Weitzman, David

  Ewing, Harry

  Marquand, David

  Wells, William (Walsall, N.)

  Faulds, Andrew

  Mason, Rt. Hn. Roy

  Whitehead, Phillip

  Fisher, Mrs. Doris(B'ham, Ladywood)

  Maxwell-Hyslop, R. J.

  Whitlock, William

  Fitch, Alan (Wigan)

  Mayhew, Christopher

  Williams, W. T. (Warrington)

  Fletcher, Raymond (Ilkeston)

  Meacher, Michael

  Wilson, Alexander (Hamilton)

  Fletcher, Ted (Darlington)

  Mellish, Rt. Hn. Robert

  Wilson, Rt. Hn. Harold (Huyton)

  Foot, Michael

  Millan, Bruce

  Woof, Robert

  Fraser, Rt.Hn. Hugh(St'fford&Stone)

  Millar, Dr. M. S.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES:

  Fraser, John (Norwood)

  Milne, Edward

  Mr. Joseph Harper and

  Freeson, Reginald

  Moate, Roger

  Mr. Donald Coleman.

  Gilbert, Dr. John

  Morgan, Elystan (Cardiganshire)

  Question accordingly agreed to.

  Bill read a Second time.

  Ordered,
  That the Motion relating to the committal of the Maplin Development Bill to a Select Committee may be proceeded with at this day's Sitting, though opposed, until any hour. —[Mr. Rippon.]

  MAPLIN DEVELOPMENT BILL
  Mr. Speaker: Before I call the Under-Secretary of State to move the motion for the committal of the Maplin Development Bill to a Select Committee, I should inform the House that I have selected the first amendment in the names of the right hon. Member for Grimsby (Mr. Crosland) and the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley). Their other amendments are consequential upon that amendment. I suggest that the amendment be moved by the right hon. Gentleman when he rises to speak, after which I am prepared to allow a debate to cover both the subject of the motion and the points raised by the amendment. The remaining amendments not selected may be referred to during the debate.
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: On your Ruling, Mr Speaker. You have not selected the three amendments standing in my name, but you have said that we can discuss them in the debate. How I should like to know how one can suggest increasing the number of members on the Committee if there is no amendment down to that effect. The dicussion might take place, but how can one ask for additional or, if need be, fewer members if there is no amendment down to that effect?
  Mr. Speaker: The answer is that if I have not selected the amendment the hon. Gentleman cannot do it.
  Motion made and Question proposed,
  That the Bill be committed to a Select Committee of Eight Members, Four to be nominated by the House and Four by the Committee of Selection:
  That there shall stand referred to the Select Committee—

  (a) any Petition against the Bill presented by being deposited in the Private Bill Office at any time not later than the seventh day after this day, and

  (b) any Petition which has been presented by being deposited in the Private Bill Office and in which the Petitioners complain of any amendment as proposed in the filled-up
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  Bill or of any matter which has arisen during the progress of the Bill before the said Committee,

  being a Petition in which the Petitioners pray to be heard by themselves, their Counsel or Agents:
  That if no such Petition as is mentioned in sub-paragraph (a) above is presented, or if all such Petitions are withdrawn before the meeting of the Committee, the order for the committal of the Bill to a Select Committee shall be discharged and the Bill shall be committed to a Standing Committee:
  That any Petitioner whose Petition stands referred to the Select Committee shall, subject to the Rules and Orders of the House and to the Prayer of his Petition, be entitled to be heard by himself, his Counsel or Agents upon his Petition provided that it is prepared and signed in conformity with the Rules and Orders of the House, and the Member in charge of the Bill shall be entitled to be heard by his Counsel or Agents in favour of the Bill against that Petition:
  That the Committee have power to report from day to day the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them:
  That Three be the Quorum of the Committee.—[Mr. Eldon Griffiths.]
  10.23 p.m.
  Mr. Frederick Mulley: I beg to move, after the first paragraph, to insert:
  'That it be an Instruction to the Select Committee to investigate and decide upon the expediency of the Bill'.
  This is a Hybrid Bill, which always causes a great deal of procedural argument and difficulty. However, contrary to what is generally supposed, the practice of the House is not to exclude in the consideration of a Hybrid Bill the same powers and procedure in the Select Committee as for a Private Bill.
  As the House knows, in a Private Bill, as well as dealing, as is intended, with the narrow points in the Secretary of State's motion, it is customary to call upon the promoters to prove their case or to prove the preamble—in other words, to show that the Bill is expedient and necessary.
  The Select Committee of the House that considered the procedure on Hybrid Bills in 1948 stated that it could not recommend the House always to have that investigatory Select Committee or always to follow the practice that Second Reading in the House would be regarded as settling the question of principle and expediency.

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  In paragraph 18 of its report the Select Committee stated:
  "Your Committee consider that neither doctrine can be applied inflexibly to all hybrid bills. In a particular instance it might be clearly indicated in the course of the debate on second reading that the affirmation of prim ciple was conditional upon the finding of the select committee that the expediency of the Bill had been established. Again it would be open either to the Government or to private Members to put down Instructions to the select committee in which the expediency of the measure is specifically referred to the committee for investigation and decision. In the absence of any indication or instruction to the contrary, however, Your Committee consider that the second reading of a hybrid bill should relieve the promoters of the onus of establishing the expediency of the Bill."
  We feel—and there was a clear indication from Conservative hon. Members opposite that they feel—that the Government have not made—[Interruption.] If the Under-Secretary of State would like to rise, I will give way. It is better for Ministers not to make interjections from a sitting position. As I was saying, both sides of the House, and certainly a wide body of public opinion, are not satisfied that the Government have established their case for the expediency of the Bill. If they believe—this is the real test—that they have a case, surely they would not object to putting it to a Select Committee. If they are not willing to accept that proposal I can only conclude, and I am sure that the country outside will do so, that they are not sure of their case and that they want to commit this House, the country and successive Governments to the large expenditure of public money without putting all their facts and evidence on the table.
  We are asking that a Select Committee should have the opportunity of putting the promoters through the usual drill. Because the promoters happen to be the Government, they should not be exempted from the obligation that we impose upon every other promoter of this kind of Bill.
  10.27 p.m.
  Mr. John Tilney: I am pleased to follow the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley) and urge that a Select Committee should look at the expediency of the Bill as it is a joint seaport and airport Bill. I hope that my hon. Friend, when
  798
  he winds up the debate will say what effect it is likely to have on Merseyside and the port of Liverpool, which is unduly expensive because of the water having to be impounded behind dock gates. A look at the question of Severn-side has already been promised. I hope that my hon. Friend will decide to look at Liverpool. I am in favour of reclamation of land almost anywhere and of making Great Britain greater geographically. However, such reclamation should be where the population is, and more in the area of Cheshire and Lancashire than the South-East.
  I should like to know from where the labour is to come. Will it come from London or is it expected that people should emigrate from the North-West to the subsidised—and I say that deliberately—South-East? I thought it was the policy of the Government to stop the drift to the South-East and to help development areas. The Bill will have a reverse effect.
  How big a labour force is visualised? How big a city, and at what cost? Do the Government think that Merseyside will lose out both by air and by sea? We have no national airport or seaport policy. We know that Maplin was condemned by all the Roskill Commission with the exception of one member. Sir Colin Buchanan in the minority report, which has already been referred to, says that in his opinion and his terms of reference been different he would have chosen an airport in the central region. Liverpool is in that region. I rest my case on his argument.
  Roskill, as we all know, went as far as the middle of Lincolnshire to look at sites for airports. However, his committee never went to the North-West. From that area the trains are already very fast. It is only two and a quarter hours from Liverpool Airport to London. There would be little environmental damage if Liverpool Airport were doubled up. The land is already there, and an international airport could be ready in 1977, as the chairman of the Merseyside Chamber of Commerce pointed out in a letter to The Times of 31st January.
  It is all there at a minuscule cost compared with what we shall spend at Maplin. There would be much less noise than at

  799
  almost any other airport. The aeroplanes could land and take off over the estuary because of the bend of the River Mersey. There is much less fog there than at almost any other airport. I happen to have my home right on the banks of the Mersey, in what I should like to see as the future flight path.
  There is not room for four runways, but there is room for two with all the facilities for an international airport. All the infrastructure is there now, the roads and the rail. All that is wanted is a half-mile of loop line on flat land to join up at Ditton Junction.
  If we had Customs trains specially built, the time taken to London would be only a very small number of minutes greater than that taken from Foulness, especially if we could use the much under-used Marylebone Station, which would take tourists into the heart of London. Is it not sensible to use our present capital infrastructure to the full and save hundreds of millions of pounds? Moreover, tourists would see some delightful country. Do the Government want all future tourists to come to London? If so, I suspect that London will cease to be pleasant to both them and us.
  Nearly as many people live within 76 miles of Liverpool Airport as live within 76 miles of Heathrow.
  Yesterday my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, speaking at a luncheon to tell the world of the establishment of the new Merseyside Development Office in London, spelt out all the many advantages that Merseyside has. All its exports and manufactures were written on the menu. They are there for all to see.
  I want finally to put some questions to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State. What will be the cost of the seaport? What will be the cost of the airport? What will be the cost of housing the necessary labour in a new city? Where are the people to come from? What will be the cost of the necessary new roads and railways?
  I am told that in the new airport in Tokyo the clutter of vehicles is so great that many people prefer to land in Osaka and take a fast train into Tokyo. That is a lesson for London Airport.
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  What will be the cost of moving Shoeburyness? I am told that it will be vast.
  Finally, who has been to look at the Liverpool site, and when?
  I hope that my hon. Friend will answer those questions, bearing in mind that we have 55,000 unemployed in the area and that an airport brings work and ancillary jobs.
  The land is there, half ready for such development, as are the roads and the rail—the whole infrastructure. I urge flexibility, which would save vast sums of money.
  I hope that my hon. Friend will come and look at our airport as a possible development instead of Maplin.
  10.35 p.m.
  Dr. Alan Glyn: I am grateful that the amendment has been tabled because the wording enables the House to debate things that we would not normally be allowed to debate. However, whether I support the amendment is another matter.
  Mr. Malley: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I should be glad to have a Ruling from you on this, Mr. Deputy Speaker. As I understand it, it is a wholly procedural point as to whether the Select Committee would have power to go into these matters. Since the House has settled its part of the matter in the debate on Second Reading, I would not have thought that it would be desirable now to have another Second Reading debate, particularly when many hon. Members have urgent engagements to fulfil tomorrow morning.
  Mr. R. J. Maxwell-Hyslop: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The position is surely the reverse of that outlined by the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley). The amendment says:
  "That it be an Instruction to the Select Committee to investigate and decide upon the expediency of the Bill."
  Therefore, it must be relevant to discuss whether such a Select Committee should be able to investigate this matter. That can only be done by advancing reasons for saying that discussions to date have been inadequate. If the right hon. Gentleman did not want the amendment

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  to be properly debated, why did he move it?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): Perhaps I may advise the House on this matter. It is clear that, as a general principle, most things can be discussed on the motion. What cannot be said is that there should not be a Bill at all. That has already been decided. Within that framework, if hon. Members want to discuss things they should be allowed to do so. But they must realise that I reserve the right to say whether they are going too far and to pull them up if I think it necessary to do so.
  Mr. J. Bruce-Gardyne: Further to that point of order, though it is on a slightly different point, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Am I right in thinking that the public expenditure implications of the proposed airport development are matters more properly to be discussed on the money resolution?
  Mr. Deputy Speaker: Yes, the hon. Gentleman is right.
  Dr. Glyn: I am grateful for that Ruling Mr. Deputy Speaker. I read the motion and the amendment very carefully and before raising this matter I took advice. I shall endeavour not to go beyond the confines of the amendment.
  I have a deep constituency interest because in terms of aircraft noise Windsor and Maidenhead are the worst-affected areas in the country. Do we or do we not need a third airport? Today it has been clearly indicated by hon. Members on both sides that the level of noise for people who live in and around London Airport is intolerable.
  The second question that must be asked is whether there is any other possibility of undertaking something less expensive to achieve the desired object. I am convinced that it is impossible to do this at London Airport. It must be said that the sensible and modern course is to set such an airport in a coastal area, where, the noise element must be less to people who live in the area.
  My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment and his colleagues have been extremely helpful in re-activating the Noise Advisory Council and in many other ways. I hope that he is in a position to elaborate slightly on
  802
  one matter. Does he believe that we can look forward—not in the immediate future—to some alleviation of the present level of air traffic in and out of Heathrow? At the moment it is intolerable for the constituents of a number of hon. Members on both sides of the House.
  The next point, which again has been made by a number of hon. Members, is that it is vital, if we are to build a new airport, to ensure that it is accessible to London. Here I disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, North-East (Mr. Adley), because I believe that most people wish to fly in and out of London, especially if their journeys are such that they are in transit and have to change aircraft. What is more, I was not impressed by the arguments about charter flights. People do not want to travel long distances by bus in order to catch their aircraft——
  Mr. Nigel Spearing: They do.
  Dr. Glyn: I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. I should prefer to catch a fast train in the centre of London or go straight to the airport and get on an aeroplane. I am sure that many other air travellers would agree with me.
  If we have a brand new airport and reclaim land which at the moment is of little value to anyone except the birds, we shall have the advantage of being able to construct a deep-sea port. The House must recognise that the combination of a deep-sea port capable of taking tankers of half a million tons and an airport will present a very serious rival to our competitors on the continent——
  Mr. Tilney: And to Merseyside.
  Dr. Glyn: I think that in years to come we shall say that this has been a good investment.
  Mr. Arthur Lewis: They are supposed to be our partners.
  Dr. Glyn: Yes. But they are our rivals in trade. We may be partners in the Community, but we are still competitors in terms of industrial exports.
  I do not believe that the introduction of quiet aircraft is a viable alternative. However much money we spend ourselves, we cannot force foreign airlines which want to come to our airports to

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  have aircraft which have been silenced. If we try to do that we shall exclude a large number of foreign aircraft from our airports. Instead, they will land in Paris, and we shall lose a great deal of trade and money.
  I believe that it is in the national interest to have a first-class airport combined with the development of a complex seaport which will replace the Port of London. What is more, in the end the airport will relieve the congestion at Heathrow. A thought that occurs to me is that in the long term it might be possible to sell off a great deal of the Heathrow area, which I understand is worth £3,000 million, with the additional advantage of having all our noisier aircraft and all our night flights operating in and out of Foulness.
  10.45 p.m.
  Mr. Nigel Spearing: I will not comment on the speech of the hon. Member for Windsor (Dr. Glyn), because we all understand why he made it and the context in which he did. In my interjection during his speech, I said, "they do", meaning that people do not necessarily enjoy travelling in that way, but they do it because the proportion of scheduled traffic is smaller compared with charter work. If people are going on holiday for a week or a fortnight they are much less concerned about travelling for two or three hours to an airport than they would be if they were going on business.
  That gives a much greater degree of flexibility than there would otherwise be in our airport pattern, and it is a possibility which I am convinced, from a reading of the Roskill Report, the Roskill Commission did not sufficiently take into account.
  I thoroughly support the amendment which is designed to widen the powers of the Select Committee dealing with this Hybrid Bill. I want to concentrate on the procedure of this subject which has come to us today, prior to going to the Committee, and urge that the Committee should have its powers widened because of the way in which this has been dealt with by the Government. It is a point I would have made in the preceding debate if I had had the time.
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  The previous "non-debate" in this House concerning the principle of the Roskill Report was a wide one. The House was naturally concerned with whether, in view of the report, the third London airport, if required, should be at Cublington rather than elsewhere. There was relatively little discussion then about Foulness when I emphasised the point that if it went there it should be called Maplin. I asked what sort of airport should it be if it went to Maplin, and what sort of associated activities should there be.
  This was taken up later by the hon. Member for Essex, South-East (Sir Bernard Braine), who initiated a debate on 28th May 1971 to which the present Minister for Aerospace and Shipping replied. He gave a rather inadequate answer to the concern expressed by hon. Members over constituency points. The hon. Member for Essex, South-East said:
  "I should be grateful if my hon. Friend could give some information as to the length of time before a firm plan emerges. Would this be one year, or two years?"
  The Minister did not give a very firm reply. He said:
  "We are aware that we are involved in an exercise of a much wider issue than simply building an airport. It is a major environmental development."
  All too true. Then I asked at the end of the debate:
  "Can the Minister say when the Government will produce a White or Green Paper on this issue setting out preliminary thoughts?"
  I should have said "intentions" in respect of the White Paper. The Minister replied:
  "Regarding the precise way in which the Government will let their views and conclusions be known on this matter, which will require public ventilation and discussion, the Government will choose appropriate methods to ensure that that happens."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 28th May 1971; Vol. 818, c. 744–5.]
  As far as I know, that has not happened. I went to the Library and checked whether it had received any public documents from the Department of the Environment or the Department of Trade and Industry about specific plans for the Maplin project other than those which we have in the Bill. There is very little. Certainly all the questions which I and others put concerning the degree of industrial, secondary or tertiary development around the area of South-East Essex, the possible design of the railway, whether it should

  805
  run straight from London, how far it should initially use existing routes, whether there should be a motorway at all, have not been answered.
  I raised this in the first debate on this subject because I contend that there need be no motorway at all. All these issues were raised. I fully expected, perhaps being a little naive and a relatively new Member, that the Government with knowledge of the great financial liability they would be incurring. would bring out documents dealing with industry, new housing, railways, roads and so on—not necessarily a final scheme but some idea of what, if the House decided to go ahead with the detailed scheme, it would be letting itself on for.
  We have had none of these things. I do not think the hon. Gentleman can claim that we have. We have his statement of 9th August, when he admitted that Maplin:
  "will create a need for large-scale urban development in South-East Essex. My right hon. Friend intends that this shall be built to the highest environmental standards. The Government propose to designate a substantial area for development by a New Town Development Corporation, working in close collaboration with the local planning authorities. We expect to publish a draft designation order early next year."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 9th August 1972; Vol. 842, c. 1745.]
  I wrote to the Under-Secretary of State and have had correspondence with him about the nature of the new town—whether it is indeed to be a new town or merely additions to existing ones. He courteously replied. I fully expected, before the Bill was published, that we should have some documents telling us what these associated developments were to amount to, but we have had nothing.
  This would be a reprehensible course for a reasonably efficient business organisation putting forward a prospectus to investors, let alone its customers, yet the Government, despite all their furore about the environment and planning, have taken it in this case. It means that people who wish to put in petitions, if they can get them within the Long Title of the Bill and to the Select Committee upstairs, may not be able to get at these points because they will be beyond the ambit of the Bill, which, we are told, deals with the reclamation of land off the coast and all that goes with it, such as industrial develop-
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  ment and navigational aids on the mainland. They will not be able to deal with the consequential developments at this stage, although they will be even more important in the end than the airport itself.
  This is why I urge the House to pass this imaginative admendment. The Government have not only let down the side democratically but are being deliberately perverse in not telling us what it all involves. The Under-Secretary of State may smile, but I do not think he has contradicated my charges. It is a black day for democratic government if this is what has happened, and I strongly support the amendment.
  10.52 p.m.
  Mr. Carol Mather: I hope that, when the expediency of the Bill is under consideration, attention will be given to the urgency of giving some relief to the people living around London Airport, as my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Dr. Glyn) has pointed out. It was mentioned by the Secretary of State and the Minister for Aerospace in the debate, but it was not possible for hon. Members who live in that area to give it support during our debate earlier.
  I hope that the Select Committee will seriously consider the need to bring forward the first new runway as soon as possible to bring relief. The noise around Heathrow, Gatwick and Luton is mounting year by year. It is becoming an intolerable burden on the people who live around these airports. Last summer was a very bad time for my constituents, for those of my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor, and for those of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire, South (Mr. Ronald Bell)—indeed, the constituents of all three of us suffer very badly.
  Part of the reason was the introduction of a new beacon, the BOR beacon, which channels aircraft much more accurately down the minimum noise routes. Such was the pressure of public opinion last summer that the Secretary of State was forced to say that he would reconsider the whole question of minimum noise routes. It is now being considered by the Noise Advisory Committee. We hope that as a result of the inquiry some changes will be made in the minimum noise route policy.

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  I say this to stress again that the need for the third London airport is badly felt in the great conurbation of 2 million people who live around London's chief airport, and hence the urgency for getting on with the project by building the first runway at Maplin as rapidly as possible.
  10.54 p.m.
  Mr. Roger Moate: I do not want to give the impression that I am rising to speak because I failed to catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker, or Mr. Speaker's, during our debate on Second Reading, so I will curtail my remarks and briefly express my support for the amendment.
  I am sure that anything which extends the scope of the Select Committee to examine the expediency of the Bill must be right. If one thing emerged from our earlier debate, it was the general dissatisfaction with the power that Parliament has to examine the far-reaching implications—which go far beyond the airport question alone—presented by the Bill.
  I am sure that it should be very relevant for the Select Committee to consider the expediency of the Bill in the light of many of the points raised already. My hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Dr. Glyn) particularly referred to the question of a seaport. This emphasises the fact that the House has never considered the full implications of the Bill. It might be right or it might be wrong that there should be a major seaport development at Maplin. We do not know whether it is intended that the Port of London Authority should transfer virtually the whole of its activities in the Thames to Maplin. That has been implied. But surely we should have the right to examine this in detail before the matter takes off to such an extent that Parliament loses the power of scrutiny over it.
  Earlier in the debate we were given some facts and figures by my right hon. and learned Friend. My right hon. and hon. Friends have been very helpful in the last few weeks in trying to provide facts and figures to help us to make a decision earlier this evening. I think that we made the wrong decision and that we shall live to regret it very soon, both from my constituency viewpoint and the national economic viewpoint.
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  The point is that all these facts and figures have come so late in the day. Perhaps that is our fault for asking for them too late. Nevertheless, Parliament should have the facts and figures presented to it clearly so that we can make a clear decision. I suspect that we shall know more about the new parliamentary building—as we have very attractive models of it upstairs; including the fixtures and fittings, the contents and even probably the pictures—when we come to make a decision on that than we know about this project which we voted on tonight, which will run into several £1,000 million of public expenditure directed to that region.
  The Select Committee should have wider powers than it has at present to examine the general expediency of the Bill. One particular aspect we should consider is the expediency of the Bill in the context of a national airports policy. That point surely has emerged in the debate today.
  I cannot believe that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary is opposed to the concept of a national airports policy. It was put forward very forcefully by the Conservative Opposition in a debate that took place in 1967. the report of which I read. The then Opposition urged that a decision on the siting of a third London airport should be postponed until a full national examination had been made on a national airports policy. Sadly, that has changed and the Government have now taken a decision in isolation for the South-East of England. They have established an inquiry into a national airports policy, but excluding a major sector of the country with regard to air transport movements. I cannot believe that that makes sense.
  Touching further on the question of the use of regional airports, it has been established that there will be a massive increase in the number of passenger air movements and the number of aircraft movements in the foreseeable future. We cannot avoid that. I believe that that is proven, although I suspect that many of the statistics are grossly exaggerated. If the statistics were right, I think that most people would give up travelling altogether because it would be so unpleasant to travel in such large quantities, with millions of people crowded on to the beaches of Majorca or the Costa

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  Brava. People go somewhere with a purpose, and once one reaches the forecasts for 1990s or the year 2000, the figures take a little believing.
  Nevertheless, these are increasing trends, with which we have to cope. I argue strongly that we could postpone a decision. If the Select Committee decided that it was expedient to do so, it should have the power so to do. If there were a delay of one or two years we could well resolve the problem of those years by increasing the amount of traffic diverted to our regional airports.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Mr. Tilney) referred to Liverpool. He put forward quite a strong case. I was interested in some figures from the Department of Trade and Industry which show that at present Liverpool has some 15,000 aircraft movements annually. The Department estimates a provincial airport could carry 70,000 air transport movements per annum in the non-scheduled category. In other words, Liverpool Airport is highly under-utilised. I obtained similar figures for Bristol, Cardiff, Gloucester, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds-Bradford, and Birmingham—that is, many of the main provincial airports. They are all heavily under-utilised. Indeed the degree of under-utilisation, taking a rough figure from the Ministry reply, shows that one could increase air transport movements in the regional centres by 400,000 a year. We want only a small slice of that to give us the extra two or three years to provide the extra capacity to allow for inquiry into the decision we have regretfully taken this evening.
  We should examine these points and particularly the possibility of diverting to regional centres charter flights which often carry people on a once-a-year flight. Many of these passengers would be prepared to spend a little extra time travelling to places like Bristol, Liverpool, and Birmingham, particularly if the money which is to be spent on communications was spent instead on improving the rail links to the regional centres.
  I hope that the House will decide to extend the powers of the Select Committee so that it can examine the expediency of the Bill in the light of the many factors involved and not least that of the environmental damage it will inflict, particularly on my constituency.
  11.1 p.m.
  Mr. Timothy Raison: do not claim to be an expert on procedure and I cannot quarrel in detail with what the right hon. Member for Sheffield. Park (Mr. Mulley) said in opening this debate. However, the amendment is fundamentally bogus.
  This issue has been widely discussed over the past year or two and the case has not been effectively made that new developments have altered the basis of the Government's original decision or of the arguments advanced in that time. The brilliant summing up of the main debate by the Minister for Aerospace and Shipping effectively dispelled the large number of doubts raised.
  I should like to ask what consequences would flow if the Select Committee were given power to investigate and to decide on the expediency of the Bill. What would happen if they said at the end of their deliberations that it was inexpedient? This has not been properly considered by those supporting the amendment. We should land ourselves in a ludicrous position. The House, after serious debate and years of discussion, has come to a conclusion and it would be nonsense if the Select Committee should be in a position to reverse that.
  I should not wish to run down Select Committees of the House, but I do not believe that the kind of Select Committee which is likely to be appointed on the sort of basis envisaged would be in a position to come up with a genuine and thorough analysis of this complicated issue. It is right that these matters should be decided by Parliamentarians rather than by Roskill Commissions or others. I am sure that the right decision has been taken. Several of my hon. Friends have outlined once again the appalling damage which would be done by noise or by congestion in the Heathrow region if we reject or seriously defer the Maplin project.
  I simply put forward as a constituency point that the consequences of defering or abolishing Maplin would inevitably mean an enormous increase of traffic from Luton, Chesham and Wendover, in my constituency, have suffered heavily as a result of night flying from Luton. The Government have, to their credit,

  811
  taken steps to contain night flying, but although it is not on as large a scale as it is from Heathrow, it is a misery to people who live in the area. The decision to go to Maplin is entirely admirable.
  Mr. James Allason: Does my hon. Friend realise that night flights from Luton are far worse than they are from Heathrow?
  Mr. Raison: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend, but of course his constituency suffers from this problem even more than mine. The reason is that aircraft on night flights from Luton fly low in order to avoid Heathrow traffic.
  Mr. Moate: Everyone who is anxious to get rid of night flying seems concerned that it should go to Maplin. I wonder if those hon. Members who wish to get rid of it realise that they are planning to of transfer their misery on to large numbers of people living in my constituency who will be just 10 miles from the end of the runways at Maplin Airport. The position is very serious and we shall all not get off scot free.
  Mr. Raison: I accept the legitimacy of my hon. Friend's point. But we are talking about the agglomeration of night flying around Heathrow, Luton, Stansted and Gatwick, all of which stand to be relieved by the creation of the new airport. The felici tic calculus points to this being the right decision.
  11.7 p.m.
  Mr. R. J. Maxwell-Hyslop: I wish to inquire about two procedural points. The first relates to line 5 where it says
  "any Petition against the Bill presented by being deposited in the Private Bill Office at any time not later than the seventh day after this day …."
  What I want to know from my hon. Friend is what kind of days these are. There are all sorts of days in our procedures. Are these days when the House is sitting or do they include Sundays? If they are purely calendar days, that leaves precious little time after the Bill has received its Second Reading for petitioners to get their petitions printed and deposited in the Private Bill Office. It is such a short time as to make the process derisory. Mr. Speaker said that we could discuss consequential amendments, one
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  of which directs itself to this point in that it seeks to
  leave out 'seventh' and insert 'twenty-eighth'.
  It is covered too by amendments which were not selected. For the Government to provide such a short period in which petitions can be presented after Second Reading is almost to abort the whole purpose of the Select Committee. It would be an evil day if this device were used to frustrate the proper procedures of the House.
  Mr. Mulley: It is clearly in the Government's mind that they may well intend that. They go on to provide that if there are no petitions, which may well arise as there is not enough time, the Committee does not need to meet.
  Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop: That is another of my fears. My other principal fear is that if the Committee meets to deliberate on petitions, only those who are present in the Committee Room will know what is going on. Although this is a Select Committee of the House on a public Bill it will be dealt with under the Private Bill procedure to this extent that there will be no daily publication of the minutes of evidence taken unless the Committee so directs.
  The Secretary of State's motion says that the Committee shall have the power to report from day to day the minutes of evidence taken before it. But to have the power is not necessarily to use it. That is why I put down an amendment to leave out "have the power to" and insert "shall" so that those of us who cannot permit ourselves the luxury of being present in the Committee Room all of the time can nevertheless allow ourselves the demi-luxury of reading the proceedings the next day as they would have been ordered to be printed.
  Will my hon. Friend also let me know the Government's intentions? Is it their intention that the permissive power they take should be used, or is that permissive power put in as a matter of form with the result that we may find that we do not know what the proceedings in Select Committee have been until they are terminated?
  11.10 p.m.
  Mr. Robert Adley: I share the unease of my hon. Friends about the procedures which are being adopted. If I may intervene

  813
  in the argument between my hon. Friends the Members for Aylesbury (Mr. Raison) and Faversham (Mr. Moate), the point is that those who served on the Committee on the Concorde Bill and supported that project understand the fears of people about what may happen in 10 years' time.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury says that we should not endeavour to frustrate the will of Parliament by doing anything which might cause the Select Committee to express a view against that expressed by Parliament in giving the Bill a Second Reading. But that is just the point. If a Select Committee discovers changed circumstances five years hence and finds that Parliament made a mistake, even at that late stage it will not be too late. We should not have gone so far down the line that we should not be able to turn back. I am sure that hon. Members who served in Committee on the Concorde Bill will agree about that.
  I thank my hon. Friend the Minister for Aerospace and Shipping for the great encouragement he has given in agreeing to look officially at the Severnside proposition. Hon. Members on both sides of the House have for long asked for this proposition to be studied. Two years ago the hon. Members for Abertillery (Mr. Jeffrey Thomas), Nuneaton (Mr. Leslie Huckfield), my hon. Friends the Members for Gravesend (Mr. Roger White), Hampstead (Mr. Geoffrey Finsberg), Monmouth (Mr. John Stradling Thomas) and I signed an all-party motion seeking this study. We are all extremely grateful to the Government for taking the bull by the horns and agreeing to it.
  I turn to the understandable fears of my hon. Friend the Member for Esher (Mr. Mather) and my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Dr. Glyn) in whose constituency until very recently I lived. Noise will not be removed from the 2 million people who live around Heathrow merely because of the building of a large airport at Foulness. There are only two ways in which noise can be prevented. One is by making aero-engines quiet and the other is by closing Heathrow or Gatwick. I have never supported the Maplin Development Bill and I did not do so tonight. Had the Government said that they were ruthlessly determined to put environment above all else, to close
  814
  down Heathrow and Gatwick, use the resources to pay for Foulness and to provide increased air transport facilities in the regions, I should have felt able to support them.
  Coming back to the proposals for the Select Committee, the answers we have received recently about unknown cost, unknown lines of railway and roads, unknown site for the new firing range at present at Shoeburyness, unknown details of the London motorway box, all militate in favour of a continuing Select Committee.
  The time may cone when we have to quantify the cost of the environmental decision that the House has taken tonight. The figure of £1,000 million for Foulness may be a slight exaggeration in 1973, but no doubt it will not be by 1980.
  Perhaps my hon. Friend will confirm that the cost of building a second runway at Gatwick would have been £8 million. If that be the alternative cost, we should know about it.
  I commend to my hon. Friend the extraordinary circumstance of a similar decision which is facing the people of Canada. The decision was taken a few days ago about the second airport for Toronto at Pickering. The Federal Canadian Government had to decide by Friday 2nd February whether to acquire the land on which the airport would be built. There is a strange similarity between the Pickering and the Foulness situations. The Federal Canadian Government have now authorised the purchase of the land much in the way that the House has tonight given a Second Reading to the Bill to start digging at Foulness.
  Will my hon. Friend assure the House that he will look at what is happening in Canada and will look particularly at the remarks of the Canadian Minister for Transport who said that an independent board would be set up to hear views on the airport and the urban area around it so that the decision could be changed if it produced any vitally new facts on technology or changes in the attitude of the people that might point to a different conclusion. He said that the Government could be moved to reconsider although the odds against reversal were tremendous. In the Canadian decision of a few days ago there was a loophole, if that be

  815
  the word, whereby the Government could get out if things changed substantially.
  I commend to my hon. Friend the proposition that a Select Committee should sit to look into the Maplin Development Bill so that 10 years hence those of us who served on the Concorde Bill recently will not be faced with the problems with which we were faced a few days ago.
  11.17 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for he Environment (Mr. Eldon Griffiths): This debate has been an afterglow to the discussions that we have had during the day turning on an amendment moved by the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley) to a procedural motion. I must advise the House that in my view it would be entirely wrong to accept the proposals made by the right hon. Gentleman.
  The House of Commons has tonight made a decision. Therefore, it cannot be right to depute to either four or eight of its Members the duty or, indeed, the opportunity of reversing the decision that the House has taken. This House has decided that it is expedient in the national interest to proceed to dredge and reclaim the land and provide it for an airport and a port. Having decided that it is expedient so to do, it must be constitutionally wrong to say that a small body of Members of this place should be asked to take on the duty of telling the House that it was wrong.
  Mr. Mulley: The hon. Gentleman has put a most interesting constitutional proposition to us. Perhaps he does not know that when the Select Committee recommended that only on some occasions should it be right for it to have this power to investigate and decide, the then Conservative Opposition divided the House against the proposition because they held and argued that the Select Committee should have that duty on every Hybrid Bill.
  Mr. Griffiths: The right hon. Gentleman may quote precedents. I am simply giving my view and the reason why I must advise the House that it would be wrong to depute to eight of our number the duty of deciding that the decision we have just taken, that it is expedient in the national interest, is wrong and that that group should determine that it is in-
  816
  expedient. I do not think one could accept that proposition.
  Mr. Douglas Jay: Surely the position is that until there has been discussion and a vote on Third Reading the House has not taken a final decision. If we can get advice meanwhile from the Select Committee, or any other form of Committee, it is perfectly constitutional that we should do so.
  Mr. Griffiths: The right hon. Gentleman ought to know that the Bill will now take its proper course. The Select Committee's duty will be to listen to the evidence of the petitioners, if there be any, and to report back to the House and advise us in what way, if at all, we could amend or change the Bill to save the rights of those private persons who may be affected.
  Once we have heard from the Select Committee, the whole Bill goes to a Standing Committee. The House will then go through the normal procedure of the Standing Committee and report it back on Third Reading, whereupon the House will make a final conclusion. I am making the narrow point that tonight the House has taken a decision and it must be wrong to say that a number of hon. Members should go away and retry the case which we have considered.
  Let us consider the duty of the Select Committee that is now to be appointed. It will hear the views of petitioners. If the right hon. Gentleman's proposition were to be accepted, the petitioners would be invited to advise the Select Committee whether the decision of the House tonight was or was not in the national interest. It cannot be right to say that a number of non-Members of this House with, maybe, private interests should be invited by the right hon. Gentleman's motion to tell us whether we have made a judgment that is expedient in the national interest.
  Mr. Mulley: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right—it is not right. The purpose of my amendment and the purpose of the normal practice of the House when dealing with Private Bills, is that the onus is on the promoter to satisfy the committee. The petitioners, if they are interested, can naturally ask question, but the onus of evidence is on the promoter and it is for the committee to ensure that the promoter discharges that

  817
  duty. My case is that, because the Government have seen fit not to discharge that duty to the House, they should be asked to do so before the Select Committee.
  Mr. Griffiths: The issue of whether the Bill is expedient or not can only be determined by the House. Tonight the House has taken that decision and that is as far as we can go.
  Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop rose—
  Mr. Griffiths: My hon. Friend has already made two contributions. He should let me get on in the interests of a lot of other hon. Members who really have had enough. My hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Dr. Glyn) asked whether he can have an assurance about the alleviation of noise for his constituents. That point was made by several hon. Members. No one can promise that there will be an alleviation of the noise. It can be said, however, that if the airport is to be built at Maplin the increase of noise, which is becoming intolerable in those areas, will not happen at anywhere near the same speed. In that sense that can he a material alleviation of the possible distress for people in that area. The hon. Member for Acton (Mr. Spearing) asked that some further documentation should be published about the ancillary developments to Maplin. As soon as the consultants' report on the possible routes for the motorway and the highways is available, my right hon. and learned Friend has said—and he said so in this House—that he will make it possible for the House to know what decisions he has reached. He will see that there is full opportunity for discussion on the matter.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton (Mr. Maxwell-Hyslop) asked specifically about the meaning of seven days' notice. I am advised that it means seven calendar days. There is nothing unusual about that. The motion has been on the Order Paper since before Christmas, and there has been no lack of notice.
  Mr. Spearing: An undertaking was given about the roads and the railways. I mentioned that the Government intended or appeared to intend a large-scale amount of urban settlement and
  818
  development of industry. The hon. Gentleman said nothing about that. Perhaps he will deal with it now.
  Mr. Griffiths: The hon. Gentleman is plainly not aware of the normal planning procedures in this country. When the time comes for the designation of the new town it will be done under the new town legislation. There will be plenty of opportunity for a public inquiry. If the hon. Gentleman is diligent, and I have no doubt he is, he will have his opportunity to make known his feelings at that time.
  I think that it would be wrong of me to try to answer the whole of the Second Reading debate all over again. I can only say that on the ground that I indicated at the beginning of my remarks it must be wrong at this stage to say that we should give the Committee the instructions which the right hon. Gentleman proposes. It is better not to accept the amendment but, rather, to agree to the motion.
  Mr. Tilney: Will my hon. Friend look at Merseyside, as he has promised to look at Severnside?
  Mr. Griffiths: That is a matter in the first instance for my hon. Friend the Minister for Aerospace and Shipping, but I shall put to him the point made by my hon. Friend.
  Amendment negatived.
  Main Question put and agreed to.
  Ordered,
  That the Maplin Development Bill be corn-mined to a Select Committee of Eight Members, Four to be nominated by the House and Four by the Committee of Selection.
  Ordered,
  That there shall stand referred to the Select Committee—

  (a) any Petition against the Bill presented by being deposited in the Private Bill Office at any time not later than the seventh day after this day, and

  (b) any Petition which has been presented by being deposited in the Private Bill Office and in which the Petitioners complain of any amendment as proposed in the filled-up Bill or of any matter which has arisen during the progress of the Bill before the said Committee,

  being a Petition in which the Petitioners pray to be heard by themselves, their Counsel or Agents.
  Ordered,
  That if no such Petition as is mentioned in sub-paragraph (a) above is presented, or if all such Petitions are withdrawn before the meeting of the Committee, the order for the committal of the Bill to a Select Committee shall be discharged and the Bill shall be committed to a Standing Committee.
  Ordered,
  That any Petitioner whose Petition stands referred to the Select Committee shall, subject to the Rules and Orders of the House and to the Prayer of his Petition, be entitled to be heard by himself, his Counsel or Agents upon his Petition provided that it is prepared and signed in conformity with the Rules and Orders of the House, and the Member in charge of the Bill shall be entitled to be heard by his Counsel or Agents in favour of the Bill against that Petition.
  Ordered,
  That the Committee have power to report from day to day the Minutes of the Evidence taken before them.
  Ordered,
  That Three be the Quorum of the Committee.

  MAPLIN DEVELOPMENT [MONEY]
  Queen's Recommendation having been signified—
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide for the reclamation from the sea of certain land for the purpose of the establishment of an airport and a seaport in south-east Essex, it is expedient to authorize—

  (a) the issue out of the National Loans Fund of any sums necessary to enable the Secretary of State to make loans to the Authority established by that Act;

  (b) the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of any sums required for fulfilling any guarantee given by the Treasury in respect of sums borrowed by the Authority; and

  (c) the payment of any sums into the Consolidated Fund or the National Loans Fund.—[Mr. Eldon Griffiths.]

  11.26 p.m.
  Sir Brandon Rhys Williams: It would not be right to detain the House for long, but the Money Resolution on a Bill which is likely to result in such large expenditure is a matter of importance and it is appropriate that it should be debated even if briefly.
  Before I begin I should like to declare a personal interest, in that I am an owner of land in Glamorgan. I also believe
  820
  that the Severnside airport project ought to be seriously studied. It has relevance, particularly in view of the welcome remarks of my hon. Friend about the Severnside project, to the Maplin development.
  In winding up the debate for the Opposition the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Park (Mr. Mulley) drew attention to the wide terms of the Money Resolution, and I sympathise very much with him in the view that on a matter of this kind it is inappropriate that the House should be given so little guidance about the total commitment that it is making in supporting the project. Authority is being given to issue out of the National Loans Fund and the Consolidated Fund "any sums required"; and from Clause 10(8) it seems that the Secretary of State has carte blanche to decide about the funding of the scheme without further reference to this House.
  There is a general feeling in the country, and it is my view, too, that the House of Commons is gradually losing control of public expenditure. It is my view and, I think, that of many right hon. and hon. Members that a Money Resolution of this importance, with no apparent upper limit on total expenditure, is an attack on the status of this House. It used to be a commonplace of constitutional theory that the House of Commons achieved—not without bitter struggles—a degree of supremacy over the executive because it came to control the supply of funds. We shall be disgracing our traditions if we allow this power to slip gradually out of our hands.
  In the United States, the American constitution, which is an offshoot of the British constitution of the eighteenth century, makes it abundantly clear that the elected representatives of the people have the responsibility to control the executive through the control of the supply of funds. In Europe, too, it is generally hoped that democratic feeling will find expression through the growth of the authority of the European Parliament over the expenditure of the central European agencies. Yet here at Westminster we apparently are prepared to consider enormous expenditure on this controversial project in a virtually empty House.
  I have asked my hon. Friend, and I should like to ask him specifically now,

  821
  for two assurances—first, that if there is any significant increase beyond present cost estimates for the Maplin project itself or the supporting schemes such as the new town, the roads or the port, Parliament will not merely be informed but will be asked to give its approval before the money is committed; and, secondly, that it will not be argued that regional airport schemes such as Liverpool, Severnside or any other should be deferred or scrapped because of any rise beyond present estimates in the cost of Maplin and its associated projects.
  11.30 p.m.
  Mr. Roger Moate: I endorse to a certain extent the sentiments expressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington, South (Sir B. Rhys Williams). I was under the impression that the Bill limited the total amount initially to £250 million. If that is not so, perhaps my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary will make it clear.
  We are authorising massive expenditure, and on Second Reading my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State gave us figures. It would be helpful if as soon as possible those figures could be set out in much greater detail in a much more comprehensive form, analysing all the costs plus the so far unknown costs, particularly the costs of compensation for the demolition of houses in relation to the construction of the motorway and also in connection with access routes and the massive new city project which is to accompany this project. As soon as possible we should be fully advised of the scale of the whole enterprise.
  I draw attention to one figure. Perhaps my hon. Friend will confirm whether I am right in making these comparisons. They emphasise my fears about escalating costs in terms of public works projects. I refer to the reclamation costs which are to be paid for under this initial £250 million. The Roskill Report suggested that the reclamation costs would be £70 million. That was in 1971. By 1972 the Department's own selection of sites document suggested that the costs would be £110 million. The latest figures I have been given suggest total reclamation costs of £175 million. In other words, since Roskill the estimate has increased by over £100 million.
  822
  The increase is of such a scale that I suggest that Roskill would have damned Foulness totally if he had had such figures at his fingertips at that time. Have estimates increased by 250 per cent. in two years alone?
  Another figure that was given was the cost of clearing munitions from the sands. Initially the cost taken by Roskill was £1 million. The latest figure given by the Government is £4 million. That is an increase of 400 per cent.
  Faced with increases like that so early in the project the House is right to be concerned about whether it is being given proper powers of scrutiny and control over the whole project when many of the other items of expenditure will be much greater than the reclamation costs and initial clearance costs.
  11.33 p.m.
  Mr. J. Bruce-Gardyne (South Angus): I agree with my hon. Friends the Members for Kensington, South (Sir B. Rhys Williams) and for Faversham (Mr. Moate) that such is the nature of the Money Resolution that we cannot let it go by on the nod. It is, as my hon. Friend the Member for Kensington, South pointed out, very widely drawn. It must be considered against the background of the discussion we had yesterday on the present condition of public expenditure abroad. During yesterday's debate a number of us expressed considerable concern about the prospects for the growth of public expenditure in the years ahead. There is a certain irony in the fact that we are tonight, only 24 hours later, discussing a Money Resolution, with such sweeping implications for public expenditure as this one.
  Yesterday my hon. Friend the Chief Secretary made these peculiarly apposite remarks:
  "Do not we constantly face the dilemma, as indeed does every democratic community, between, on the one hand, the desire, expressed daily in a thousand different ways, for spending more on projects and programmes close to the hearts of their supporters—and, on the other hand, the need to ensure that the totality remains at acceptable levels? No one can be more conscious than those who hold my office of the perennial schizophrenia of those who always want more spending in particular, but more economy in general."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 7th February 1973; Vol. 850, cc. 473–74.]

  823
  I do not suppose that I was alone in feeling an element of schizophrenia tonight. I think that my hon. Friend's remarks were directed at our back benches. But there are occasions on which they could equally well be directed to my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench.
  Mr. Anthony Crosland: How did the hon. Gentleman vote tonight?
  Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: The vote tonight, as the right hon. Gentleman knows quite well, was on the desirability or otherwise of proceedings with the construction of a third London airport. We are not now discussing that. What I am seeking to elucidate from my hon. Friend is a clearer and more precise explanation of what funds he expects to be committed under the Money Resolution, and in particular when and how. The House needs this information. These are questions of phasing and demand effect which arise directly from the Money Resolution rather than from the Bill.
  We were given this afternoon by my right hon. and learned Friend the total figure for expenditures up to 1980. It is the earlier period of expenditures that we should be immediately concerned with, because it is the background of the basic PESC exercise covering the period up to 1978 and 1977, which preoccupied us yesterday and which should preoccupy us on the resolution tonight.
  The figure my right hon. and learned Friend gave for the totality of expenditures up to 1980, on the best estimates now available, was £440 million. I am sure that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary will not take it amiss if I tell him that if in the event by 1980 we find that the expenditure has been the equivalent at then current prices of £440 million at today's values I shall be mighty surprised. I am prepared to make a substantial bet with him—he can put his own figures upon it—that that figure will be exceeded, I hope not by a factor of two or 10, but certainly by a large amount.
  The demand effects of this expenditure are not to be sneered at. Related to this is the demand effect of the location where the expenditures will take place. My hon. Friend will have noticed the
  824
  letter in The Times today from Mr. Foster, in which he said, among other things:
  "The expenditure on Maplin will be almost entirely on construction, whether it is building approach motorways or reclaiming land from the sea. The construction industry is now fully stretched, especially in the south-east. Maplin will have an inflationary effect on the construction industry. It will put a strain on Phase II and III policies to restrain building costs."
  That makes an assumption that the burden of building costs will fall heavily in the earlier part of the period up to 1980. Can my hon. Friend give us any indication as to whether that is so?
  It has for long been a Treasury dogma, whether well-founded or not, that the demand effect of a given scale of expenditure must be balanced according to the region in which the expenditure takes place. In other words, if the expenditure occurs in a region where resources are under-used the demand effect is far less than it is if it occurs in an area where resources are already very fully stretched. This expenditure will occur almost entirely in an area where resources are very fully stretched. We must accept that the demand effect is of a factor of one-to-one with the actual expenditure as it occurs.
  In the light of this widely-drawn Money Resolution we have a necessity to ask my hon. Friend to shed more light than is shed by Clause 10 of the Bill on the precise manner in which the expenditure provided for in Clause 10 will be financed.
  Many hon. Members will have seen the letter sent by Professor Walters to The Times on 30th January in which he said:
  "If we assume that some £500 million is to be spent in the last seven years of the decade, then this implies an annual spending of roughly £70 million. This will therefore increase the deficit and so the borrowing requirements of the public sector by £70 million per annum. It is difficult to see that the Maplin decision as such will induce government to raise taxes or to sell more gilt-edged to the private sector. The alternative is to increase the money supply to finance Maplin. On recent historical experience this is by far the most likely outcome. On my calculations this will add about 0·6 per cent. directly to the long-term rate of inflation of the United Kingdom in the second half of the 1970s and early 1980s."
  I guess that that might be a somewhat crude presentation of the way in which

  825
  the expenditure will take place and the inflationary impact it might be expected to have.
  We need from the Under-Secretary of State before we approve the resolution some clearer detail than we have had in the Bill, and particularly on Clause 10 about the phasing of the finance required to carry through the programme outlined in the Bill. Ideally, we want an assurance that the overwhelming bulk of expenditure will occur after the years 1976–77—in other words, in view of the evidence that public expenditure is already fully committed, if not overcommitted, up to the end of the current PESC exercise and that we should not add further to it.
  In view of the record of the Department over many years in erring on the side of caution in its forecast—or perhaps I should say on the side of optimism—of the public expenditure programme, I hope that my hon. Friend will be able to tell us something about the techniques which will be used to monitor the sort of expenditure that we are authorising in the Money Resolution to ensure that it is not exceeded, and, preferably, is restrained—though I suspect that is too much to ask.
  11.44 p.m.
  The Under-Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Eldon Griffiths): I say at once to the House that my right hon. Friend and I are determined to see that there will be the most effective monitoring of expenditure on this programme. I willingly give that assurance to my hon. Friend the Member for South Angus (Mr. Bruce-Gardyne) because I understand his anxieties and those of other hon. Members about public expenditure. We are determined to see that the financial disciplines and cost accounting are carried out as effectively as we can achieve them and that, wherever possible, we make known to the House what is going on.
  The main cost provided for in the Bill under the financial resolution is for the reclamation of land. It is shown in the financial effects as a sum of £175 million at 1972 prices. My hon. Friend the Member for Faversham (Mr. Moate) asked why the figure was larger than that put forward by Roskill. The answer is simple. The reclamation area that we are discussing is 18,000-plus acres. Roskill
  826
  was talking about some 10,000 acres. Secondly, the Roskill figures were at constant 1968 prices and, regrettably, due to inflation, 1972 prices have had to be updated since by about 25 per cent. It will be a matter for argument between the two sides of the House why that happened. But it has happened. It is only prudent to cost it in.
  Our figures also include an allowance for the payment of royalties to the Crown Estate Commissioners for materials which will be dredged from the sea bed to help with the build-up of the land for the airport. The figure of £175 million at 1972 prices covers the whole of the reclamation works. The first stage of the development, for two runways, is to be made ready by 1980, and we estimate that this will cost £140 million. That was the figure given for stage one of the project by my right hon. and learned Friend today. That will provide for the reclamation not of the whole 18,000 acres but in the first phase for approximately 14,000 acres—some 6,500 for the airport, some 2,500 for the sea port and the balance for the related commercial and other development.
  The balance of the money between the £140 million mentioned by my right hon. and learned Friend and the £175 million mentioned in the financial note is concerned with the second stage of reclamation beyond the provision for the first two runways.
  I remind the House of the undertaking given by my right hon. and learned Friend. There will be a thorough-going review after the first phase is completed for the first two runways before the Maplin Development Authority is authorised to go ahead with the second stage. I am confident that there will be ample opportunity at that point for the House to discuss the matter in great detail.
  Mr. Moate: Is my hon. Friend in a position to comment on the reference in the site document dated April 1972 to a figure of £107 million?
  Mr. Griffiths: I cannot comment without examining the point to which my hon. Friend has referred. I shall look at it and write to him.
  I turn to the £200 million figure included in the Money Resolution. It is only fair to explain why the £175 million

  827
  is shown in the financial estimate and the £200 million in Clause 10. The difference is simple. The £175 million is purely for reclamation—stages one and two. But the Maplin Development Authority is bound to have additional expenses. It has first to purchase the reclamation site. It must buy from the Ministry of Defence and from any private rights the land-based facilities, the sands and the foreshore. Secondly, it must pay for the technical and feasibility studies which will be required. A very large hydraulic model is now being made ready so that a proper study can be made of the possible erosion effects of reclamation on the coastal area. Thirdly, the Maplin Development Authority will need to pay compensation to private persons and interests—this is a matter which the Select Committee will examine, and no doubt the Standing Committee afterwards—for the impact on the cockle fishers and others. The Development Authority will need money to pay compensation where it is appropriate. This is covered in detail in Clause 18. I believe that it has been right to leave some headroom for inflation, although, with the success of the Government's counter-inflation policy, I am sure that we are not going to have to make the same allowances in future years as we have had to make since 1968.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Kensington, South (Sir B. Rhys Williams) asked two specific questions. He was very courteous in sending me a note beforehand. First, he asked, if there was any significant increase beyond the present cost estimates for the project, whether Parliament will not only be informed but asked to give its approval before any money is committed. We are dealing tonight with sums of money for the explicit purposes of the Maplin Development Authority. I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that, in the event of there being any substantial increase—which I do not expect—in the expenditure of the authority, the answer is, yes, there will be opportunity not merely for Parliament to be informed but to be asked to give its approval before the money is committed.
  Secondly, my hon. Friend asked that it should not be argued that regional airport schemes, such as those at Liverpool and on Severnside, should be scrapped
  828
  because of any substantial rise in the costs of Maplin. It is not possible to give that assurance because what may or may not happen on Severnside or at Liverpool or anywhere else is a matter of national policy. It would have to be considered in the light of many other factors. I cannot give that assurance but I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that, as my right hon. and learned Friend made clear, we shall be looking at the whole question of regional airport schemes on their merits, and if they are viable and make sense I have no doubt that they will be proceeded with on their merits.
  Mr. Frederick Mulley: The Minister for Aerospace changed the whole of the civil aviation policy that successive Governments have followed since the White Paper of 1961 when he responded, during the Second Reading debate, to an interjection. I would have thought that a major change of that sort would have justified at least a couple of sentences in its own right, because since 1961 it has been clear that no Government money has been forthcoming for any airports outside the BAA airports which are the London airports and two Scottish airports.
  Is it now to be the case that Government money is to be forthcoming for Severnside or any other regional development? If the hon. Gentleman cannot answer that tonight, will he get the Minister for Aerospace to make a statement, because whether and how much money is to be made available for such projects is very germane when we are considering the total amount of money which the estimates are going to require for Maplin itself?
  Mr. Griffiths: The right hon. Gentleman will want to be fair to my hon. Friend the Minister for Aerospace. My hon. Friend said that he would cause the whole question of possible airport developments on Severnside or elsewhere—Liverpool was also mentioned—to be looked at, and he had the agreement of the Chairman of the CAA to do that. But I think the right hon. Gentleman is wrong to suggest that my hon. Friend said that particular sums of Government money would be going in that direction. This is a matter which requires to be examined, as he said.
  Mr. Mulley: Not particular sums, but whether any Government money can be made available. That is the point.
  Mr. Griffiths: When the right hon. Gentleman studies my hon. Friend's speech in HANSARD, he will see that my hon. Friend did not make any commitment either in general or in particular about Government expenditure. He only undertook to have the matter examined objectively with a view to establishing whether viable, sensible schemes could be arrived at in these areas.
  My hon. Friend the Member for South Angus was concerned essentially about the impact of this large-scale public expenditure on our national accounts. I think that what he, with a number of other hon. Friends, wants above all else is to feel that the project is under control and that this House will from time to time be able to examine the expenditure pattern and to make judgments upon it. I can give him reassurance. Clause 12(1) requires the Maplin Development Authority
  "… carrying out proposals involving substantial outlay to act on lines settled from time to time with the approval of the Secretary of State"
  My right hon. Friend has the power to require the development authority to frame and carry out proposals on lines which he would approve. If my hon. Friend looks at Clause 12(5) he will see the explicit power that:
  "the Secretary of State may, with the approval of the Treasury and after consultation with the Authority, direct the Authority to pay to the Secretary of State the whole or part of any sums for the time being standing to the credit of any reserves"
  If he looks further he will see, in Clause 15, arrangements for the Authority to keep proper accounts. My hon. Friend the Member for Kensington, South will be interested to see at the end of that clause a requirement that each year the Secretary of State shall get from the Authority a full statement of its accounts. He has to send this to the Comptroller and Auditor General not later than the end of November and the Comptroller must examine, certify and report on the account and lay copies of it and his report on it before Parliament.
  Mr. Bruce-Gardyne: Can my hon. Friend, now or later, give some indication about the phasing of this expenditure? It is particularly important that
  830
  we do not commit to much of the expenditure in the period up to 1976–77, when we already know that we are overcommitted.
  Mr. Griffiths: I appreciate the point. I cannot give a firm assurance because the main job is to get on with things, reclaim the land and make sure that the airport is ready when needed. The use of funds will depend on the technical arrangments, building and construction. It is no more than an educated guess but I would say that it is unlikely that a very large spend would be built up before 1974–75, rising beyond that in the period from about 1976–78. It will be at its highest then, I imagine. This is covered in Clause 10. It is a point which the Standing Committee will wish to examine.
  Sir B. Rhys Williams: I thank my hon. Friend for his helpful statement but I am still in doubt about one matter and that is what power Parliament may have to exercise control over the supporting of schemes for projects such as new towns, roads and so on.
  Mr. Griffiths: My hon. Friend will excuse me if I point out that such things are not included in the Bill. I give an assurance about the new town that it is the intention of my right hon. Friend to designate it under new town legislation. The normal planning procedures, public inquiries and so on, will arise. The same broad principle applies to the roads and railways. There is no difference in what is happening at Maplin from what would happen if we were to build elsewhere. The principle of parliamentary accountability remains.
  12 midnight.
  Mr. Frederick Mulley: One of the most unsatisfactory parts of the Bill is the open-ended Money Resolution. We sought to persuade the House to take this into consideration before deciding to give the Bill a Second Reading. I am bound to say to hon. Members on the Government benches who have criticised the financial implications that it is no use voting for Second Reading and giving the Government a blank cheque and coming along later and complaining. Equally, it is not much use having a debate and complaining about public expenditure one

  831
  day and then allowing this Bill to go through without even the investigation and consideration that a Private Bill Committee would give.
  Although the Minister has mentioned a number of figures, there is not one figure on the Order Paper. In the Money Resolution we are authorising any sums necessary out of the National Loans Fund and the issue of any sums required out of the Consolidated Fund. It is an open-ended Money Resolution. As I see it, the Goverment are also asking for powers for the Treasury to write off any of those sums in the future if it so desires.
  It is an extremely wide Money Resolution. I shall not seek to divide the House against it. Hon. Members who voted for the Second Reading must face the consequences later, when I have no doubt that recriminations as to the slice of public expenditure this project will take will come week after week and month after month in the years to come. What those who supported the Second Reading have done is to pre-empt, not only for the present Government but for successive Governments for 15 or 20 years, a very large sum indeed for a particular part of the country for a particular purpose, when there is at least a very substantial body of opinion—to put it no higher—that thinks that this is a very unwise use of scarce resources.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That, for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to provide for the reclamation from the sea of certain land for the purpose of the establishment of an airport and a seaport in south-east Essex, it is expedient to authorise—

  (a) the issue out of the National Loans Fund of any sums necessary to enable the Secretary of State to make loans to the Authority established by that Act;

  (b) the issue out of the Consolidated Fund of any sums required for fulfilling any guarantee given by the Treasury in respect of sums borrowed by the Authority; and

  (c) the payment of any sums into the Consolidated Fund or the National Loans Fund.

  PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES (ORDERS)
  12.2 a.m.
  The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. Mark Carlisle): I beg to move,
  That the Parliamentary Constituencies (London Borough of Camden) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 24th January, be approved.
  Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Robert Grant-Ferris): I think that it would be for the convenience of the House if the following four orders were taken with this order:
  That the Parliamentary Constituencies (Manchester) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 24th January, be approved.
  That the Parliamentary Constituencies (Norwich) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 24th January, be approved.
  That the Parliamentary Constituencies (Daventry. Wellingborough and Northampton) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 24th January, be approved.
  That the Parliamentary Constituencies (New Forest and Christchurch and Lymington) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 24th January, be approved.
  Mr. Carlisle: As you say, Mr. Deputy Speaker, it will be convenient to discuss the other four orders. This is the second instalment of a tidying-up exercise. The Boundary Commission for England and Wales last reported following a general review in April 1969. During a debate in October 1970 hon. Members on both sides of the House drew attention to places where local authorities or ward boundaries had been altered since April 1969 and urged the need for interim reviews in these cases. The Boundary Commission's report in 1971 dealt with 25 of these constituencies and its present report deals with a further 17 constituencies to take account of changes in local government areas that took place in 1971.
  Constituency and local government boundaries should coincide as far as possible. Although it is true that a great many local government boundaries will disappear on reorganisation next year, it is clearly desirable that constituency boundaries should coincide with local boundaries as they were immediately before reorganisation. Already as a result of the Commission's last interim reviews the boundaries of nearly all constituencies to be used at the next General Election

  833
  coincide with existing local boundaries. Now the Commission has completed that process by recommending adjustment of those few boundaries which did not coincide.
  In the case of 13 constituencies, the Commission's proposals attracted no representations when they were published. But in the case of the other four constituencies, they attracted representations. These were the constituencies of Northampton, North and South, Daventry and Wellingborough. The Commission was right in this case not to anticipate local government reorganisation and not to distinguish Northampton from the innumerable other areas where a case might be made for adjusting constituency boundaries now to the new county and district boundaries. The Commission took the view that all these changes should wait until the next general review. As the House knows, the Commissioners are bound by statute to report after this general review between 1979 and 1984. The fact is that the next general review will involve another major redistribution. Every county and most constituencies will be affected, and it would make no sense to tinker with the present constituencies before then, however strong the individual case may be. As it is, these orders, if approved, will enable the Commission to start its review with a clean slate. It will have all constituencies now defined in terms of local boundaries as they now are.
  12.5 a.m.
  Mr. Gerald Kaufman: It will not surprise the hon. and learned Gentleman that I wish to address myself to the order relating to my own constituency. In doing so, if we turn to the schedule to the order, at Parts I and II and notice the differences in the wards in my constituency of Ardwick, we shall see that two historic wards of Manchester, St. Luke's and St. Mark's, are to disappear as a result of local government redistribution. I do not think that they should be allowed to disappear without comment, because they are historic parts of Manchester and have contributed to its history as a great industrial city.
  I am glad that St. Mark's will be commemorated by a superb contemporary picture by Trevor Grimshaw who has
  834
  drawn and painted many scenes of the old northern terraces in the West Gorton area of St. Mark's, and will also be commemorated by the decision of Manchester City Council to erect vandal-proof lighting in the approach to St. Mark's Church which will be greatly welcomed by people in the area.
  It is important, in considering the new boundaries of my constituency in this area, to draw attention to the similarity of the problems which in many ways affect the four wards as they will now constitute my constituency—Ardwick, Levenshulme, Longsight and Rusholme.
  These are the problems of derelict land, on the one hand which the inhabitants of all four wards complain about. I am delighted that Manchester Corporation has given a great shove to British Rail to deal with derelict land at Broom Lane in Levenshulme. The people there will be pleased that the health hazard which has grown up there will disappear. All of these wards have clearance areas, and some more than others.
  The new wards have an identity of interest in wanting people rehoused and in making sure that clearances are carried out sensibly. A group of people in Rusholme will watch with sympathy the clearances taking place in the other wards while hoping that the corporation will see fit to preserve in its entirety the small but historic Moon Grove which may be designated as a clearance area. It is such a sturdy and handsome part of Manchester that we hope it will remain.
  I feel it is right, while not opposing the order, not to allow it to go through without commenting on the changes which it makes in the historic old names and districts in Manchester and hoping that the four new wards which go to make up my constituency will live as happily and comfortably together as the six old wards which they replace.
  12.10 a.m.
  Mr. John Fraser: First, I cannot possibly vie with my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Ardwick (Mr. Kaufman) in his deep knowledge of the historical and architectural attributes of his constituency. Members of Parliament view boundary distribution rather as they view a major operation, as something which is not to be

  835
  welcomed. What we have before us seems to be a slight skin graft for some constituencies without pain and, as far as I can see, without opposition from the major political parties. It is sensible to keep to the old ward boundaries until there is a major redistribution and therefore there is no opposition to the order from the Labour side of the House.
  Mr. Carlisle: With the leave of the House may I say to the hon. Member for Manchester, Ardwick (Mr. Kaufman) that, as someone who has a considerable and lengthy knowledge of Manchester, I, too, deplore and regret the departure of St. Luke's and St. Mark's. The fact remains that the parliamentary divisions in Manchester are changing. I know the two wards to which the hon. Member refers and I note also that there will no longer be a St. John's or St. Matthew's. I do not know whether that means much to Manchester but I accept what the hon. Member says.
  Question put and agreed to.
  Resolved,
  That the Parliamentary Constituencies (London Borough of Camden) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 24th January, be approved.
  Resolved,
  That the Parliamentary Constituencies (Manchester) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 24th January, be approved.—[Mr. Carlisle.]
  Resolved,
  That the Parliamentary Constituencies (Norwich) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 24th January, be approved.—[Mr. Carlisle.]
  Resolved,
  That the Parliamentary Constituencies (Daventry, Wellingborough and Northampton) Order 1973, a copy of which was laid before this House on 24th January, be approved.—[Mr. Carlisle.]
  Resolved,
  That the Parliamentary Constituencies (New Forest and Christchurch and Lymington) Order 1973, a draft of which was laid before this House on 24th January, be approved.—[Mr. Carlisle.]

  EUROPEAN COMMUNITY SECONDARY LEGISLATION
  Ordered,
  That Mr. Brian Batsford be discharged from the Select Committee on European Community Secondary Legislation and that Mr. Green be added.—[Mr. Rossi.]

  EUROPEAN COMMUNITY SECONDARY LEGISLATION
    ADJOURNMENT
    Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Rossi.]

  PLANNING INQUIRIES AND APPEALS
  12.11 a.m.
  Mr. Harold Gurden: I apologise for delaying the House for an extra half hour by my Adjournment debate, but if I had not done it someone else would. My purpose is to criticise planning inquiries, but not to criticise my right hon. Friend the Minister for Local Government and Development, who has been kind enough to stay behind to reply to the debate. We have been together for a long time today, starting about 14 hours ago in a Standing Committee dealing with parallel problems.
  I want to direct my remarks particularly to the planning of roads. I agree with a letter in the Daily Telegraph of 7th December last by Mr. Miller, who said, in broad terms, that planners were good and competent and that they are faithful and fair people. I do not criticise the planners. They work to the instructions of the Minister who is responsible for the entire process from beginning to end. He issues his instructions to the planners to plan a road. Nor do I criticise the road construction units and the inspectors, as does Mrs. Barbara Maude in her article in the Daily Telegraph of 25th November last. I do not agree entirely with her, or with many of the objections to plans which come forward.
  I should like to cite two schemes—one the M54 in the Midlands and the other the King's Heath bypass which is planned by the local authority. The first runs through the Tapster Valley in Warwickshire, where my daughter lives. I have therefore been thrown accidentally

  837
  into the company of some of the residents there and I have listened to some of their comments—rude comments on occasion—about the project. My daughter and I do not object to the road and I do not speak for her or for her Member of Parliament, who is my hon. Friend the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Dudley Smith). My guess is that he is having a lot of trouble.
  I know of no better plan for the Tapster Valley and I criticise no one, but I do know a better plan for the King's Heath bypass, and I expect there will be a lot of trouble over that.
  I want to talk about the fairness or unfairness and the justice or injustice of inquiries to those who suffer most and have most at stake. It is always the local people in the vicinity who are most concerned. Although I agree with part of Mrs. Maude's article, there is cause for great concern.
  Of vital importance is the fact that in an inquiry the whole process is loaded against the objector. Mr. Miller, who is knowledgeable, experienced and skilled—although I have never met him—says in his letter that everything is loaded against the objector, and I agree.
  The provision of legal and professional assistance and the costs involved are factors which weigh against objectors. If the objections succeed, part of the costs may be recovered, but if they fail they will not be. Apart from the costs which objectors may recover, there is a considerable amount of expenditure which they cannot recover. In Committee this morning my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mr. Allason) cited a case in which the costs were £50,000. I understand that the case succeeded, and I suppose that the costs were recovered.
  We know, and Ministers know, that either side might be right. We accept that the planners, the inspector at the inquiry and the Minister all make the best judgment they can, but at the end of the day who is to say that either side is right, or that no better scheme exists? So it comes down to one person's opinion. Nothing is clearly set down in black and white.
  The Minister appoints the inspector, and the Minister has the advice of his staff in reaching a final decision after his inspector has reported. Whatever the
  838
  complexion of the Government the Minister is both judge and jury. Ministers lean over backwards to find a reasonable solution, and they always believe that they are right.
  On one side there is the best legal and professional advocacy, with unlimited funds and unlimited time. On the other side, the objectors have nothing. The hat is going round in King's Heath to get together funds to pay for legal advice. Without funds and legal advice evidence which should be before the inspector may never reach him, and the findings of the inspector and the Minister may be faulty simply through lack of knowledge.
  These people who have to fight for themselves do not initiate the trouble. It is caused by either the Minister or the local authority planners. It is often not a question of a compulsory purchase order or the damage to or removal of property. It may be some adjoining problem like the Tapster Valley scheme. Many people who feel that they are affected object to it. It does not necessarily affect their property; it affects their environment. Obviously everybody tries to find the least damaging project for these people and for the public in general.
  I criticise the refusal of the professional people involved to consult everybody and to lay all on the information on the table for everybody to see. The objectors have a great disadvantage in not knowing all the facts and seeing all the papers. If everybody is trying to arrive at the right decision at the end of the day, there is no reason why everything should not be before the public.
  I understand why the Minister often has to say, "I cannot talk about this project until it is before me for a decision." The Minister will not reveal all that he knows. So the facts and figures and papers are not disclosed. Even when those that do come to light for the inquiry are disclosed, it is too late. They must be available beforehand. They may not be assembled, of course, but the people concerned ought to have everything as it comes along.
  The Minister makes the best judgment that he can. I suggest that it is not always bound to be right. I do not see why, in many cases, one should believe that there could not have been a better scheme.

  839
  I should now like to quote from the article I have mentioned in which Mrs. Maude says:
  "There can be no real consultation if one side, with a monopoly of information, is allowed to withhold it from the other"—
  that is, withhold for a certain time, if not entirely—
  "and even more destructive is the way in which the terms of reference are framed so as to prevent anything being discussed except the actual line of a road. …
  In short, public consultation consists of officials refusing to consult"—
  that may be an exaggeration, but that is what she says—
  "and public participation is rather like that of the victim at his own execution. …
  Then there is money. At every public inquiry into road proposals the Department or the local authority briefs Queen's Counsel at considerable public expense. It would seem only reasonable to allot an equal sum, as of right, to be shared among objectors."
  I agree with that.
  "It is really quite inequitable that a small parish council, for example, should have to find funds to brief counsel. …
  There is also the very real difficulty ordinary people find in attending long inquiries; whereas the officials are being paid to be there. In short the whole procedure is grossly over-weighted in favour of the Executive".
  Finally, I should like to quote from the letter which Mr. J. Miller writes. He is obviously professionally skilled. He says:
  "A complete overhaul of the system is long overdue, and such a review should be conducted by the Secretary of State in consultation with all the other interests involved. The main changes required are:
  (a) All inquiries to be conducted by Inspectors and Assessors who are independent of the Department of the Environment."
  I certainly agree with that.
  "(b) Inspectors and Assessors to have the right to examine witnesses in depth, not merely to ask questions."
  That I agree with too.
  "(c) The engineers responsible for the planning of a road scheme to disclose full details of their calculations for the proposed road schemes and alternative schemes.
  (d) Provision of legal and other professional assistance for objectors.
  (e) The Secretary of State in cases where he decides not to accept the recommendations of the Inspector, to be advised by an independent panel of experts …"
  That might be advantageous.
  840
  Mr. Miller continues:
  "Inspectors and administrative civil servants in the Department, however competent they may be in their own spheres, do not have the expertise required to deal with inquiries into road schemes. In addition, unfortunately, they are subject to pressures from within the Department and from outside the Department."
  Of course, we all must know about the collusion—to use a strong word—that goes on between local authorities, local people and the officials concerned who, having made up their mind that they have the right scheme, want to drive it through and are not keen to help objectors. I hope that my right hon. Friend will look at this matter and see what can be done. If he thinks that something can be done in future, we will look forward to that.
  12.28 a.m.
  The Minister for Local Government and Development (Mr. Graham Page): I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Mr. Gurden) for raising this matter, and particularly for referring to articles which I must say at once are extremely ill-informed. He has been grossly misled by some of the statements there, particularly the article by Mrs. Barbara Maude and the letter from a Mr. J. Miller, who says that he is an inspector. We cannot trace him as ever having been a member of the inspectorate for England and Wales. It may be that he was a reporter in Scotland. Anyhow, the information which my hon. Friend has quoted does not apply to inquiries in England and Wales.
  I first want to put on record the volume of business about which my hon. Friend has been speaking. Over half a million planning applications a year are received by local planning authorities. In 1972, 14,400 appeals in planning matters were made to the Secretary of State. That was a 70 per cent. increase on the 1970 figure. To cope with that we have increased the inspectorate from 134 last August to what will be 220 after the recruits have finished their instruction. In addition to that, there are 26 inspectors on housing CPOs and unfitness orders and there are some 2,000 cases on others matters to be dealt with annually by the planning inspectors.
  I now deal with the main point to which my hon. Friend addressed his remarks, namely, the inspectors who hear

  841
  road inquiries. These inspectors are not like the planning inspectors of whom I have been speaking. They are on a separate and individual panel. They are not salary-paid by the Department; they are employed ad hoc for the inquiries and they are paid for those inquiries. There are 46 such inspectors who deal with road inquiries. They are not under the orders of the Department. Anybody who has appeared before these inspectors will know perfectly well the independence which they are proud to exercise. If my hon. Friend had ever read some of the reports which we receive from these inspectors—and very good reports they are—he would know how independent they are.
  Let us look at the purpose of the public inquiries of which my hon. Friend has been speaking—the inquiries into roads. They are aimed at supplying the Secretary of State with information upon which he can arrive at a decision, and although they are administrative in purpose they are conducted on a quasi-judicial basis and most of the rules of procedure that one finds in a court of law are applied.
  The inspectors are drawn from many walks of life. An inspector's is not a career job as such, if I may put it that way. Inspectors receive a period of instruction, and I think that they are acclaimed by those who appear before them as "extremely good at the job".
  My hon. Friend may like to know that the period between the decision that a road should be laid from A to B and the traffic beginning to use the road is between seven and eight years. I frequently receive complaints that we take too long to complete roads, but we take that length of time because of our extreme thoroughness in research and preparation. The cost benefit examination of every road is based on carefully considered formulae which are continually under study, research and revision.
  On the environmental side, we have the benefit of the advice of the Landscape Advisory Committee, which, although appointed by the Secretary of State, works independently of the Department, and is an entirely independent committee. It advises on the landscaping of roads, the environmental setting of motorways, and so on. Recently we have had the report
  842
  of the Urban Motorways Committee, and the policy in the Land Compensation Bill is based upon that report.
  My hon. Friend said that the Secretary of State's decision may be faulty because of a lack of knowledge. The whole purpose of these inquiries is to enable the Secretary of State to have the necessary knowledge and information when he makes his decision. But however much knowledge comes out of an inquiry, one still finds that there is always that margin of opinion which lies with the Secretary of State. He has to judge it scientifically, if I may put it that way, up to a certain point, but there comes a point where he has to exercise his own judgment, and that is based on the information as much as possible.
  I think one ought to remember that all these schemes are devised for the benefit of the public in general. One does not devise a road just because the Department wants a road somewhere. It is devised for the benefit of the general public. The siting of a road may injure individuals, but this is so of many public works that are devised for the majority of the public; they often injure a minority.
  Frequently, a new road is planned because of the high accident rate on the road which it is to replace, and the longer the inquiries are stretched out the more accidents occur on the old road. One has, therefore, to look at the two sides of the picture.
  My hon. Friend implied that there was a refusal to consult everybody on the plans for a road. On occasions, a road plan first comes to the Department with 20 to 30 lines on the map. If we were to publish the information about the road at that stage it would blight all the properties adjacent to those 20 to 30 lines. One must reduce the proposal to something more definite.
  It is true that in the past we have perhaps held back information from the public until a relatively firm decision has been produced. This has been done so that our preliminary ideas should not blight the properties around the preliminary lines on the map. On some occasions those concerned have felt that we have held back information for too long, but the fact is that we may damage property

  843
  by disclosing thoughts about the proposition at too early a stage.
  However, we have looked at this again and, as my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State announced in the House on 6th December, we have decided to provide much earlier knowledge of road making. As I have not the time in this short debate to read the whole of what my hon. Friend said then, I will read only part of it and commend the rest of it to my hon. Friend. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary had been quoting examples. He then said this:
  "These two examples show that we are prepared to change our proposals in the light of views expressed at a public inquiry, even when this involves additional cost, as both these schemes will. But I recognise the very genuine nature of the concern that has been expressed today and I believe it is right that we should examine very carefully whether the procedures can be changed so that the public can participate in discussions on the line of the route, and that their views can be fully understood and taken into account in choosing which line should be developed in detail up to the stage at which the Department currently publishes its proposals in the form of a draft statutory instrument."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 6th December 1972; Vol. 847, cc. 1637–38.]
  My hon. Friend went on to describe how new procedures could be introduced.
  We have to that extent recognised that we must cast aside our previous idea of not blighting people's property at too early a stage, and try to reach a balance between the danger of blighting and bringing the public in at a stage where the line of road has not been definitely decided by the Department—in fact, even then it is only put forward as a proposal. In future we propose to bring the public in a little earlier.
  My hon. Friend the Member for Selly Oak said that the whole process was loaded against the objector. I assure my hon. Friend that we are always prepared to produce information—engineering information, cost benefit information, and so on—about the proposal we are making to the inquiry. If at a late stage an objector comes forward with an alter-native route, it is not always possible to examine the route fully for the objector. There are occasions when we have been able to do so within the time before the inquiry comes on for hearing. It is, however, difficult to employ engineers at per-
  844
  haps a few days' notice before the hearing on an alternative route which an objector later produces.
  It sometimes occurs that the objector comes forward with an alternative route which is one of those we have already investigated before arriving at the proposed route. If so, he is provided with the information on why we rejected that route.
  In any inquiry of this sort where the Secretary of State's officials, or in, some cases, the local highway authority, are putting forward the proposal and the whole administration is set up by the Department, one might have the idea that the Secretary of State is judge, jury and a party to the proceedings. But this is an administrative inquiry—an inquiry in which the Secretary of State is seeking to find out information on which he can base his judgment. To that extent it must be set up and set in motion as an administrative inquiry by the Secretary of State.
  I turn to Mr. Miller's several points which my hon. Friend quoted. Mr. Miller says that all inquiries should be conducted
  "by Inspectors and Assessors who are independent of the Department of the Environment."
  I have explained that that is already the case, through the independent panel of inspectors. They are paid on a fee basis and are not employed on a salaried basis by the Department. They do not act on the instructions of the Secretary of State in any way.
  Going on with his list of the main changes he feels to be required, Mr. Miller states:
  "(b) Inspectors and Assessors to have the right to examine witnesses in depth, not merely to ask questions."
  How he can claim to have been an inspector and merely to have asked questions of his witnesses, I do not know. Anyone who has attended inquiries will know in what depth inspectors are prepared to examine witnesses.
  He continues:
  "(c) The engineers responsible for the planning of a road scheme to disclose full details of their calculations for the proposed road schemes and alternative schemes."
  If anybody asks for details of the alter-native schemes, he will be provided with

  845
  them. On the basis of the revised procedures which have already been announced, the proposed road schemes will be open for anybody to examine.
  His next point is:
  "(d) Provision of legal and other professional assistance for objectors."
  I do not think that we could be expected to finance all objectors—
  The Question having been proposed after Ten o'clock on Thursday evening, and the debate having continued for half an hour, Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
  Adjourned at nineteen minutes to One o'clock.

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  Value Added Tax
  Value Added Tax
  European Currencies (Purchasing Power)
  European Currencies (Purchasing Power)
  Low Income Families
  Low Income Families
  Stamp Duties
  Stamp Duties
HOME DEPARTMENT
  Hugh Eric Mason
  Hugh Eric Mason
  Charity Stamps
  Charity Stamps
  Criminal Justice Act 1972
  Criminal Justice Act 1972
  Speeding Incident (Inquiry)
  Speeding Incident (Inquiry)
  Social Inquiry Reports
  Social Inquiry Reports
CIVIL SERVICE
  Prime Minister's Office (Staff)
  Prime Minister's Office (Staff)
  Government Offices (Dispersal)
  Government Offices (Dispersal)
  Fees and Payments
  Fees and Payments
  Members of Parliament (Government Appointments)
  Members of Parliament (Government Appointments)
  European Commission (Staff Appointments)
  European Commission (Staff Appointments)
TRADE AND INDUSTRY
  Prices
  Prices
  Steel Industry
  Steel Industry
  European Energy Requirements
  European Energy Requirements
  India
  India
  Uranium and Thorium
  Uranium and Thorium
FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
  European Parliament
  European Parliament
  European Economic Community
  European Economic Community
  Albania
  Albania
  Sudan
  Sudan
ENVIRONMENT
  Lewes Bypass
  Lewes Bypass
  Environmental Improvement Schemes
  Environmental Improvement Schemes
  Housing Completions
  Housing Completions
  Gazumping
  Gazumping
  Housing Building (Leek)
  Housing Building (Leek)
  Open Air Festival Site
  Open Air Festival Site
  Roads (Speed Limits)
  Roads (Speed Limits)
  Motorways (Driving Standards)
  Motorways (Driving Standards)
  Car Seat Belts
  Car Seat Belts
  Rent Scrutiny Board, Bristol
  Rent Scrutiny Board, Bristol
  Road Traffic Paint
  Road Traffic Paint
  Lorry Parks
  Lorry Parks
  Motorways (Accidents and Lorries)
  Motorways (Accidents and Lorries)
  Planning Authorities (Members' Interests)
  Planning Authorities (Members' Interests)
  Motor Vehicles (Exhaust Pollution)
  Motor Vehicles (Exhaust Pollution)
  Temporary Accommodation (London)
  Temporary Accommodation (London)
  PRATTS BOTTOM
  PRATTS BOTTOM
  BIRMINGHAM
  BIRMINGHAM
  AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND
  AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND
  STOKE MANDEVILLE HOSPITAL
  STOKE MANDEVILLE HOSPITAL
  EUROPEAN COUNCIL OF MINISTERS
  EUROPEAN COUNCIL OF MINISTERS
AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD
  Swine Vesicular Disease
  Swine Vesicular Disease
  Sugar
  Sugar
  Dog Licences (Sheffield)
  Dog Licences (Sheffield)
DEFENCE
  Northern Ireland
  Northern Ireland
  Maplin
  Maplin
  HM Yacht "Britannia"
  HM Yacht "Britannia"
  Interrogation Techniques
  Interrogation Techniques
  Simonstown (Communications)
  Simonstown (Communications)
  Harrier Aircraft
  Harrier Aircraft
  Sonic Boom
  Sonic Boom
EMPLOYMENT
  Training
  Training
  Earned Incomes (Northern Region)
  Earned Incomes (Northern Region)
  Vacancies (Leek)
  Vacancies (Leek)
  Pay Board References
  Pay Board References
  Office Cleaning
  Office Cleaning
  Mr. James Hill
  Mr. James Hill
HOUSE OF COMMONS
  European Parliament (Verbatim Reports)
  European Parliament (Verbatim Reports)
  Smoking
  Smoking
POSTS AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS
  Independent Broadcasting Authority
  Independent Broadcasting Authority
  Television (Wales)
  Television (Wales)
  Television Reception (North West)
  Television Reception (North West)
  Commercial Radio
  Commercial Radio
SOCIAL SERVICES
  Prescription Charges
  Prescription Charges
  Invalid Carriages
  Invalid Carriages
  Maltby
  Maltby
  Pensioners (£10 Bonus)
  Pensioners (£10 Bonus)

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
Prayers—Read by the Lord Bishop of Lincoln.

IMMIGRANTS' HUSBANDS: ADMISSION RULES
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they now permit male applicants to enter this country to join their wives on the same basis as women applicants are allowed to enter to join their husbands.
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, the rules governing the admission of husbands to join wives who are settled in this country are set out in the Statements of Immigration Rules for Control on Entry which were laid before Parliament on 25th January: HC 79 for Commonwealth citizens and HC 81 for European Economic Community and other non-Commonwealth nationals.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, how can the noble Baroness, with her own distinguished record, justify in principle the treatment of wives as the property of their husbands who are to be their bread-winner—which is the principle behind this present legislation?
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, the position of husbands who wish to join their wives in this country is that if they have a grandparent born here they are entitled to do so. The Home Secretary has discretition to allow in husbands who wish to join their wives where there are special circumstances; but the general rule governing this matter was laid down in 1969, and it is that it is recognised that generally wives would live where their husbands live, and not the reverse.
LORD WADE: My Lords, on this point of special circumstances, where a
1134
man and wife have been married for a number of years and have a family and where the wife is here with the family and the husband wishes to join the wife and the family—the husband not being allowed at present Ito come into this country—should not that constitute a special circumstance which would justify favourable consideration of an application to join the family?
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord Wade, has a particular case in mind he should make representations on that point; but the kind of special circumstances that the Home Secretary would consider are compassionate ones.
LORD BROCKWAY: My Lords, quite apart from the 19th century principle, is it not the case now that there are 300 husbands who are unable to join their wives in this country and that the wives have to bear the breadwinner's task of keeping the family together; while, if it were the other way about—the husband in this country—the wives would be allowed to join them? Can she possibly justify that?
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, if the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, is referring to the husbands who do not hold British passports of Uganda-Asian wives who do hold them and who are in this country, I should like to say that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has had conversations with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees and is doing all he can to bring about the reunifying of these families.
LORD GARDINER: My Lords, is not this discrimination between the sexes simply a survival of the days when the wife was regarded as the property of the husband? Secondly, if a Jamaican nurse comes to work here and has a disabled husband, ought she not to have the legal right to have her husband with her and not be dependent upon the good will of the Home Secretary?
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, I should have thought that the answer to the second point of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, is that this is the kind of case that the Home Secretary would wish to look at. I can only repeat what I said earlier: that the general

1135
principle governing this matter was laid down in 1969 because, as I understand it, the rules were subject to some abuse.
BARONESS SUMMERSKILL: My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Baroness will enlighten me. When she says that the rules were subject to some abuse, does she mean that there were certain men who contrived marriage in order to get into this country and who, after they had been here for a very short time, then sought to dissolve the marriage? Is that what the rule stems from?
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, my understanding is that there seemed to be a number of immigrants who contracted marriages and who thereby found a way of coming into this country by joining their wives. The number seemed to be increasing steadily and therefore the rules were introduced in 1969 to meet the circumstances.
BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOE: My Lords, when the noble Baroness referred to the conversations that Her Majesty's Government are having with the United Nations Commissioner for Refugees, were the Government discussing reuniting these families of British-passport-holder wives in this country or in other countries?
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, I think I said that the Home Secretary was having conversations with the United Nations Commissioner. I should not want that to be misunderstood. He is discussing the whole question of reunifying these families. The United Nations Commissioner is also discussing this matter with other countries.

DANGEROUS LIQUIDS: MOVEMENT BY ROAD
3.13 p.m.
LORD DE CLIFFORD: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of the increasing number of movements of bulk loads of highly dangerous liquids, such as acids, by road, they will issue regulations to ensure that the police are notified of the details of the load and the route and timing of the journey, so that, in the event of an accident or leakage, appropriate neutralising and rescue equipment is readily available.
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, the volume of this traffic is so great that a comprehensive system of movement monitoring would not be practicable. The emergency services have, however, been advised how to deal with spillages of inflammable liquids and corrosive substances, and will have been able to establish where stocks of suitable neutralising agents can be obtained. Rescue equipment is kept by fire brigades.
LORD DE CLIFFORD: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her reply. I am considerably alarmed at this because there have been numbers of cases of very dangerous and serious accidents. I feel that some form of control—
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE): My Lords, I do not dissent in any way from what my noble friend is saying, but I think that it would be more in order if he couched it in the interrogative form.
LORD DE CLIFFORD: I beg your Lordships' pardon. Would the noble Baroness consider, as an interim measure while looking further into this matter, whether these vehicles should be distinguished in some way when travelling on the road because at the moment, as I am sure she will agree, they are causing great danger to a large number of people?
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, the Home Secretary's Standing Advisory Committee on Dangerous Substances is considering additional controls and these

1137
could extend to movement monitoring. But among the proposals for next year will be included controls on the construction and operation of vehicles. I will certainly draw the suggestion made by the noble Lord to the notice of the Home Secretary.
LORD CHAMPION: My Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether she is aware that the P. and 0. Group, which is an extensive road service, has switched 500,000 gallons of this dangerous liquid from road transport to rail transport? Will she not do something to encourage this practice, particularly as special vehicles are now available?
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, I will certainly take note of that point, although I think I am right in saying that in fact matters of transport come under the Department of the Environment.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, to return to the Question on the Order Paper, would it really be so difficult for the police to be informed when such a vehicle starts on a journey? Obviously, it would not be possible to have police all the way along the route, but it is possible to use a telephone. Would it really matter if the police were instructed to telephone to the next area through which the vehicle would be travelling?
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, as I said earlier, I understand that there are now so many movements of these dangerous liquids that it is not thought practicable for the police to be informed about every one of them. The Home Secretary's Standing Advisory Committee is considering whether it can monitor those which are especially dangerous.
LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORD: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that there is a specific danger that when an accident occurs involving one of these vehicles the liquid may find its way into a river which provides a water supply? Is she aware that there is a need for urgent action and that if the volume of these vehicles is so great that it is impossible to monitor them, and therefore direct that they travel on routes which would be reasonably safe, it is vital that the structure of the vehicles carrying especially corrosive chemicals should be such as to give a far greater safeguard than is the case to-day?
BARONESS YOUNG: Yes, my Lords, we are aware of the urgency and importance of this subject, and I will take note of what the noble Lord has said.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE: My Lords, is the noble Baroness able to tell us whether the Committee to which she has referred will also study the question of other toxic liquids as well as those which are inflammable or corrosive, which may not only find their way into rivers but also into water underground and be a contaminant for many years to come?
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, it is proposed to introduce controls during 1973 over organic peroxide and other materials. I hope that this information will go some way to meeting the point raised by the noble Earl.
LORD KENNET: My Lords, is it possible for a driver to be sent off on a journey not knowing what is in his tank, so that if there is an accident he cannot tell the police what the tank contains so that they may wipe it up in the right way? Or is there now a regulation, having the force of law, that every driver must be told what he is carrying?
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, the Chemical Industries Association has produced a scheme consisting of a set of printed cards called "Tremcards" which give the particular substances and the kind of information that the driver would be required to know should there be an accident. Among the regulations will be one requiring that a copy of these instructions be carried on every vehicle.
LORD POPPLEWELL: My Lords, would the noble Baroness draw the attention of the Minister to the fact that many of these vehicles may contain anything up to twenty or thirty tons of a highly dangerous liquid? Will she inform the Minister that the railways have long experience of dealing with these substances, and will she impress upon her right honourable friend that there is considerable volume of opinion in the country which thinks that such liquid should be carried by rail and that it is a waste of the time of firemen and policemen to have to supervise road vehicles carrying these substances?
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, we are very well aware that extremely dangerous

1139
substances are carried. I will pass on to my right honourable friend what the noble Lord, Lord Popplewell, has said.
LORD SEGAL: My Lords, can the noble Baroness say whether there are any special regulations covering the servicing of these vehicles, and also whether there are any restrictions upon the speed at which they may travel?
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, I do not have that information before me, but I will write to the noble Lord, Lord Segal, on the matter.
LORD SOMERS: My Lords, would the noble Baroness make clear one thing which I am not yet clear about? Now that we are part of the European Community, have we the right to forbid lorries over a certain size to come into our country?
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, I think that is rather wide of the Question.

E.E.C. DIRECTIVES AND UNITED KINGDOM
3.20 p.m.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what directives have been adopted by the European Economic Community Council of Ministers in the last seven weeks on low voltage electrical equipment; agricultural and forestry tractors; dangerous preparations; cables, chains and hooks; non-automatic weighing instruments; length measurements; analysis of textile fibre ternary mixtures; and the biodegradibility of detergents; and what views have been expressed and what action is to be taken by the United Kingdom Government on these Directives.
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD DRUMALBYN): My Lords, may I apologise for the length of this Answer, but it is intended to be helpful. All the topics mentioned by the noble Lord are covered by twelve directives. These were approved by the Council of Ministers at their meeting in Brussels on
1140
December 19, 1972. As the list is rather long, I will, with permission, arrange for it to be published in the OFFICIAL REPORT. Her Majesty's Government were consulted while these directives were still in draft and concurred in them. In some of them amendments were made to meet us. When the Directives have been fully implemented they will remove technical barriers over a wide area of trade within the Community.
These twelve directives will be formally adopted as soon as they have been translated into all the official languages of the Community, and will then be published in the Official Journal. Copies will be placed in the Library. For the most part, these Directives will come into force 18 months after their date of publication—that is to say, in the second half of 1974. However, in some cases it has been agreed that the date of application in the United Kingdom will be delayed for further periods. Directives of this type do not apply directly within the countries of the Community, but are addressed to the member States, who are responsible for taking such action as may be required to implement them within their territories. The Government are still studying what action, if any, will need to be taken to implement each of them.
In most cases the directives merely oblige the member States not to put obstacles in the way of the sale of goods which conform to the specifications laid down. Such legislative action as is needed can probably be taken by subordinate legislation within the ambit of existing law. To meet some of the requirements administrative action by the Government will suffice. An important example will be to nominate British testing and certifying organisations. Where British made products covered by the directives are certified to conform with the requirements laid down, they will have to be accepted by the other member States of the Community without further testing.
Following is the List referred to in Lord Drumalbyn's Answer:
LIST OF DIRECTIVES APPROVED BY THE COUNCIL OF MINISTERS UNDER ARTICLE 100 OF THE TREATY OF ROME ON DECEMBLR 19, 1972

1. Electrical equipment designed for use within certain voltage limits.

2. Non-automatic weighing machines.

3. Measures of length.

4. Analasis of ternary textile mixtures.

1141

5. Classification, packaging and labelling of dangerous substances.

6. Classification, packaging and labelling of dangerous preparations (solvents).

7. Certification and marking of wire ropes, chains and hooks.

8. Agricultural tractors—type approval.

9. Agricultural tractors—maximum design speed and load platforms.

10. Agricultural tractors—certain elements and characteristics.

11. Detergents.

12. Biodegradability of anionic surface-active agents.

The above directives come into force 18 months after they are formally adopted except that for the following items the period is extended for the United Kingdom as follows:
Item 2, 5 years.
Items 5 and 6, 3 years.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I am genuinely grateful to the noble Lord for that information, but is he aware that I was not concerned so much with the merits of the individual directives as with the mechanics involved here? I feel it is important that we should know what is happening. Do I understand the noble Lord aright when he says that there have not been as yet any conversations or discussions with the trading interests involved and that there will be no opportunity for amending the directives, now that they have been adopted by the Council of Ministers? Is there any mechanism at all within the United Kingdom Parliament for considering these directives before they are adopted by the Council?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for what he has said. With regard to the discussion with the trade interests concerned, these interests were fully consulted and were glad to have these directives. As to amendment now, I do not think the noble Lord quite understood what I said in my Answer. These proposals were amended before they were approved, and in some cases the amendments were made to meet points that we had raised. They cannot be amended now, except in the sense that they have to be adjusted as between the different official languages so that they mean exactly the same in all the languages. So far as consideration in this House is concerned, now that they have reached the stage of approval, the next thing is for them to be formally adopted by the Council. When that has been done it will be possible to consider them in this House. The noble Lord will be aware of course that the Select Committee
1142
was only set up on December 20, which was the day after these directives were approved, and therefore there was no possibility of using whatever procedures the Select Committee may recommend in order to deal with these particular directives.
LORD BURNTWOOD: My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that many of us appreciate very much the co-operation and kindness that we received from our delegation to the Community prior to our accession. May I also ask the noble Lord, in the matter of mechanics, since the subjects which are embodied in this Question and which will be in other directives which may follow are always preceded by draft directives, whether he is satisfied that adequate publicity is given to submissions which may be made by our own representatives before those draft directives are transmitted from the Commission to the Council of Ministers?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I think we have to divide this particular case from future cases. As I have said, in this particular case the relevant interests were consulted—and I am grateful to the noble Lord for the tribute which he has paid to our representatives in Brussels. In so far as was possible, amendments were made to the proposals to meet the very points that were put up by the business interests. As I have said, when the whole process is complete these directives will be published in the Official Journal, and copies will be in the Library. For the future, we shall know of any proposals and the manner of their publication to Parliament is exactly what the Select Committee is considering.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE: My Lords, can the noble Lord say, following that statement, whether these directives are not yet available in the Official Journal, at any rate in English, to this Parliament?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, that is the position. I believe that they were originally agreed in French and that they have subsequently to be translated into the several official languages. The noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, shakes his head, but he will remember that there were at this time special circumstances in the European Community which made the

1143
handling of these directives rather difficult from the staff point of view.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, clearly we shall have to read rather more carefully what the noble Lord has said. But is he aware that he appears to be departing a little from Article 100 of the Treaty of Rome when he says that amendments can be made to these directives before they are approved? Is it not a fact that they have already been adopted by the Council of Ministers; that if there are amendments, they were made entirely within the ambit of the Commission itself, and that by the time they get to any Parliamentary processes, if at all, it will not be possible to amend them.
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I am trying to make clear a special position as opposed to the general position. The special position in this case was that the discussion took place and the drafting was done in one language only. It has to be seen whether what was done in that language represented a real agreement by all the parties concerned. It may be that some minor language adjustments will be needed to represent the consensus that was arrived at.
LORD WIGG: My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that, leaving aside the question whether the language in which they were drafted was English or Esperanto, the fundamental principle of the corporate State has been adhered to; that is to say, the special interests have been consulted and they have been given an opportunity to amend, but the general public will not be consulted: they can take it or leave it, and nobody can do anything about it?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, again I must say to the noble Lord, with respect, that this was a situation which arose before we actually joined the E.E.C. Now that we have joined the E.E.C. we have to see how the proposals can receive publicity and the public can know about them before they are adopted by the Council of Ministers.
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, can the noble Lord say, if these Directives are formally adopted by the Commission and referred to the United Kingdom Government, and the United Kingdom Government for some reason—probably a valid
1144
reason—refuse to implement them, what kind of penalties are likely to be imposed? Will there be fines, or is there danger of Ministers being sent to prison? Can we be enlightened on this matter?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, Article 189 of the Treaty says that directives are binding as to the result to be achieved upon each Member State to which they are directed, but that they shall leave to the national authorities the choice of form or methods of implementation. But each of the national authorities is obliged of course to carry out its obligations, and there is no reason to suppose that this country will not do so.
LORD SHINWELL: My Lords, in view of the answer he has given to me, might I ask the noble Lord whether he recalls the assurances so frequently furnished to your Lordships' House by his noble Leader when we were debating these matters, that Parliament would—I use the language used by the noble Earl—retain control over matters of this sort? How does the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, reconcile what he has just said with the statement made by his noble friend?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, the Government do retain control, and the duty of the Government, when notified of these Directives, is where necessary to transform them into suitable legislation for this country.
BARONESS ELLES: My Lords, may I say that those Parties who send delegates to the European Parliament can always submit Amendments to draft proposals at any time until the Directives are passed by the Council of Ministers?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that intervention but, with great respect. I was really being asked about the mechanics, and I did not really like to term this subject "mechanics".
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, the noble Lord refers to Article 189 relating to the form and methods by which Amendments may be enforced. Are Her Majesty's Government going to make a Statement as to the forms and methods to be used here in order to enforce directives?
LORD DRUMALBYN: My Lords, I think that when the noble Lord has had time to study the Answer I have given he will see that that matter is included in the Answer. The Government will have to study these matters as soon as they are notified after formal adoption by the Council.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, I think the House recognises that he and I have rather different views on our entry into the European Community; but I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, and the House as a whole, will agree that from the point of view of our Parliamentary procedures we have probably had sufficient debate on this important topic, more especially since a Select Committee, under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Maybray-King, is looking into this particular area. I would therefore suggest to your Lordships that we should now move on, at 3.32½ p.m. to our next Question.

CRIMINAL LAW REVISION MEMORANDA
3.33 p.m.
LORD GARDINER: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they propose to publish the Memoranda they have received from informed opinion on the Eleventh Report of the Criminal Law Revision Committee before it is debated in Parliament.
BARONESS YOUNG: No, my Lords. A number of memoranda on the Report have been published by the bodies responsible for them. It is open to others to publish their memoranda if they wish.
LORD GARDINER: My Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for that Answer, may I ask whether she recollects that the last time this question arose, namely, when there were memoranda from informed opinion sent to the Home Office on the question whether the magistrates' courts organisations should come under central control, the Home Office kindly supplied me with copies of the
1146
memoranda? If that was done on that occasion, may I ask why it has not been done on this occasion, not only for me but for all noble Lords who have put down their names to take part in the debate on Wednesday, so that the debate may be a properly informed one?
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, I of course recall the point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner; but I am sure he will understand that I personally am not in a position to give him that kind of assurance on this particular question. I will certain refer it to my noble friend Lord Colville of Culross.
LORD GARDINER: My Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether at least she will be good enough to tell us who the organisations are who have sent in memoranda so that, if that is what we must do, we can all write to them individually for copies?
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, my understanding is that it is not usual practice at this stage to publish a list of organisations that have submitted memoranda on a Report to the Government in this way, but a number of organisations have published their memoranda. Others would probably feel they were not in a form to be published, and yet others might not wish them to be published.
LORD HALE: My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that we are told in The Times that the Bar Council have published a very critical series of observations about these important matters which are fundamental to the issue of British justice? The Bar Council report, according to The Times, can be bought for £1; and I should be quite happy to pay £1 for it if I am told where and how I can get it. But between now and next Wednesday there is not much time to secure a copy and read it. Surely, on an issue of this kind, a report of the Bar Council is of quite exceptional importance. It would not be a difficult matter to make one or two of the criticisms available in the Library. Would the noble Baroness consider doing that?
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, I will certainly take note of what the noble Lord, Lord Hale, has said; but of course it is always open to any member of the public to buy a copy of publications by the Bar Council.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, would the noble Baroness, and perhaps even the noble Earl the Leader of the House, agree that it would not be impossible for the Library, if requested by my noble friend, to acquire copies of this particular report? I actually had a copy, but unfortunately have already given it away to somebody else.
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, may I say to the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, that I will see whether what he has suggested can be done.
LORD GARDINER: My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that on the last occasion I was sent copies by the Home Office, on condition that I would not quote from them without the societies' consent, and that I then had to write to 16 organisations, all of whom of course said they had no objection at all? Is this a sensible way of keeping Members of this House properly informed on an important subject?
LORD CONESFORD: My Lords, would there be anything to stop the Bar Council from making available in the Printed Paper Office a reasonable number of copies? The Printed Paper Office may perhaps afford facilities for the Bar Council to do this.
BARONESS YOUNG: My Lords, I should have thought this would be possible if the Bar Council does make this report available.
LORD HALE: My Lords, may I ask whether the noble Baroness is aware that one cannot buy the other reports unless one knows by whom they were issued? We have not available to us the evidence which is before the Revision Committee, and we just do not know how or where to get these reports.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I was half-invited by the noble Lord, the Leader of the Opposition, to come into what now is rather turning into a debate. I must confess that I do not know all the ins and outs of this particular subject, but I have been impressed by the feelings expressed in your Lordships' House in supplementaries to the Question put by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, and, if I may, I should like on behalf of the Government to undertake to have a further close look at the situation and see
1148
what can be done. I hope that noble Lords will agree that that is as far as my noble friend and I can be expected to go at this moment.
LORD LEATHERLAND: My Lords, when the noble Earl discusses this matter with his right honourable friend the Home Secretary, will he remind him about the promises of open Government that were made at the last Election?
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I think that was really a rather pointless supplementary question, if I may say so.

NORTHERN IRELAND: BELFAST STRIKE VIOLENCE
3.39 p.m.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question of which I have given Her Majesty's Government Private Notice. The Question is as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a Statement on the strike in Northern Ireland yesterday and the consequent security situation.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I should like, in response to the noble Lord's Question, to repeat a Statement which my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is making now in reply to a Private Notice Question in another place. The reply is as follows:
"A one-day strike was called in Northern Ireland yesterday by various Protestant organisations. This particularly affected Belfast, where most of industry closed down, bus services were stopped, and electricity supplies were severely cut. There was widespread intimidation.
"In the course of the day there was a number of serious shooting incidents and riots. Some of these were inter-sectarian; in others the security forces came under fire from Catholic and Protestant gunmen. There were five deaths. Three were gunmen shot by the security forces, the fourth was a fireman on duty shot by a gunman, and the body was found of a civilian who had previously been abducted. Several civilians were injured and two

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soldiers were wounded, one of them very seriously.
"In East Belfast, some of the rioting was extremely violent. A mob of 1,200 wrecked a Catholic church and the priest's house. They were dispersed with baton rounds. Barricades were erected in a number of Protestant areas in Belfast by the U.D.A. and Tartan Gangs.
"In Belfast and elsewhere, the security forces arrested and are charging 68 people—18 for riotous behaviour, 31 for disorderly conduct, 10 for burglary, 5 with possession of explosives and weapons, and 4 for taking and driving away cars. I should like to pay tribute to the brave and strenuous efforts made yesterday by all members of the security forces to control the violence.
"By this morning, the situation had improved. Electricity supplies have been restored, and normal working has been resumed. All barricades have been removed.
"The responsibility for yesterday's catalogue of violence rests squarely on those who called the strike and should have appreciated the risks involved."
My Lords, that terminates the reply from my right honourable friend.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords we are grateful to the noble Earl for repeating a Statement, which can give none of us any satisfaction. We all once again regret the deaths, especially the death of a fireman. We shall be debating the Fire Services (Northern Ireland) Order in due course, and I think it is right to pay tribute, among the many tributes that have been paid, to the fire services who had to operate under the most extreme conditions—more extreme than is normal anywhere else.
I notice with some interest and regret the fact that the noble Earl specifically pinned the responsibility on the U.D.A., among the others. This presumably includes the I.R.A. on the Nationalist side. The extent to which the U.D.A. seem to be following along with the U.V.F. is very alarming—it is rather important to get these letters right, since I was wrongly reported on this. What was at one time a peaceful body is rapidly becoming less peaceful and may invite, as it has in fact
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done, action by the Secretary of State (and this partly triggered off the riots) to detain sonic of those who are now leading Ireland further and further over the brink—it is difficult to talk about being at the brink, because they are very nearly over the brink. There is something to be said for this in regard to the publication of these events. The Irish Congress of Trade Unions has consistently opposed all strikes for political ends, and it is unfortunate that the media continue always to feature the more sensational extremist point of view. I hesitate to say that they actually organise the events, but certainly they have contributed to the picture. It is very unfortunate that the moderate voices, because they are less newsworthy, do not receive the publicity that someone like Mr. Tommy Herron gets on this.
The noble Earl mentioned that one particular mob who wrecked the Catholic church were dispersed with baton rounds. I am not clear what that means. None the less, it appears that the security forces did not arrive until a little late. I make no criticism at all of them. The military leadership are responsible even more than the Secretary of State for properly maintaining a cautious posture—not seeking to be provocative in areas where an occasional military presence may trigger action. It may well he that a less low posture may be necessary in the future in the way events have gone.
Finally, as we come up to the Border poll—and I will not repeat the criticisms that one has made in the past on this matter: so far as we know there is still going to be a Border poll—I am sure that the Secretary of State and the Government will see that all the forces necessary are available. It may be that rather soon we shall have to debate the Irish situation, which is getting to a point of such desperation that I believe neither the Government nor any of us at the moment knows what the answer is, and what the outcome is going to be.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition for the typically responsible attitude that he has taken in questioning us on this very serious Statement on this very serious situation. I should also like to endorse what he has said about the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. It is certainly my understanding

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of the position that we owe a great debt to the trade union movement in Northern Ireland, on both sides of the sectarian fence, for the moderation they have shown. It is the view of my right honourable friend, and certainly the view of Her Majesty's Government, that we must continue to afford all support we can for those in the centre who are standing for moderate views and working towards some form of way out, some form of reconciliation.
So far as the question of the Armed Forces is concerned, I note what the noble Lord has said. The Armed Forces in the future, as in the past, will continue quite impartially to confront and deal with violence, from whichever side it comes, and with whatever degree of counter-force the situation demands. I note also what the noble Lord has said about a debate on this subject. I shall be glad to follow up that suggestion through the usual channels.
LORD DERWENT: My Lords, while entirely agreeing with what has been said about the fire services, would my noble Leader care to say a word of approbation also about certain local authority workmen? I do not know whether he saw the television news the other night which referred to a bomb being placed in a petrol lorry. Before anybody could do anything (and presumably the tanker might have suddenly exploded) local authority workmen and lorry drivers brought in sand to spread all over the street. I am told that both in that instance and in demolition work the local authority workmen are repeatedly carrying out highly dangerous jobs.
EARL JELLICOE: My Lords, I gladly endorse what my noble friend has said, and the commendation he has paid, and likewise the commendation which the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition paid to the fire services. In so far as we feel horror and revulsion at these acts of violence in Northern Ireland, at the same time our admiration for the acts of courage one sees performed is equally great.

DIVISIONS: NOTIFICATION TO PEERS IN COMMITTEE
3.50 p.m.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, I understand that on Tuesday afternoon, while the European Instruments Committee was hearing evidence in Committee Room 2 upstairs, a Division was called in the House. This was not communicated to the Committee, with the results that a number of members of the Committee, who would have voted, missed the Division. I share the concern which has been expressed to me that all Peers should be given an opportunity of voting if they so wish. I therefore investigated the causes of this failure, and I am sorry to find that on this occasion the standard arrangements for communicating a Division to Members of the Committee failed in two respects. First, the bell in that particular Committee Room was not turned on as it should have been; secondly, the normal chain of oral communications from the corridor outside the Committee Room to the Chairman of the Committee failed to operate.
Yesterday I reviewed the existing arrangements, in consultation with Black Rod and the Clerk of the Parliaments, and I think it would be helpful if I spelt them out so that in future everyone concerned knows what the proper course of action is when a Division Bell is sounded. When a Committee of the House is sitting upstairs, in addition to the Bell, which will normally ring in the room itself, the right procedure is for the custodian or the policeman on duty outside the Committee Room to inform the Doorkeeper on duty inside the Committee Room, who will then inform the Clerk, who shall tell the Chairman of the Committee that a Division is taking place in the House. When a Peer who is holding a private meeting in one of the Committee Rooms upstairs wishes to be told that a Division is taking place in the House, he should inform the Principal Doorkeeper, who will make the appropriate arrangements.
I am satisfied that if the arrangements which I have just explained are properly operated they are adequate to secure what I am sure we all desire; namely, that every Peer in the building is aware

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a Division is being called and has a chance to vote if he so desires. When the closed-circuit television sets are installed there will be a third channel of communication, in addition to the voices of the police and the custodians, and the Division Bells which are rung at all strategic points.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Earl for making clear what happened on an occasion when the Government defeat apparently might well have been greater than in fact it was. So far as future arrangements are concerned, I am sure we appreciate, with the noble Earl, that difficulties can arise. I am just a little concerned about the length of the chain of communication. It would seem that if there is a weak link in it the arrangement may break down again, and we shall have to watch it very carefully. But I have no doubt that we can leave this matter with the noble Earl himself.
LORD SHACKLETON: My Lords, before the noble Earl replies, if he is going to, may I ask whether it would not be possible for the policeman to open the door and shout, "Division!", which is a well-established practice in another place, rather than rely on this surreptitious passing of notes? May I say that recognise that fortunately there was not a disaster, thanks to the loyalty of my own Party and the independent and courageous-mindedness of many noble Lords opposite.
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, both the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, and the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition are rather more able, apparently, to forecast how noble Lords will vote than I am. In all the years I have been Chief Whip I have never pretended that I could ever forecast exactly how noble Lords would vote. I appreciate the procedure I outline is rather complicated, but there have in the past been complaints that Committee proceedings were being interrupted by policemen and custodians putting their head round the door and shouting, "Division!"; and as a result this rather more cumbersome but quieter procedure was adopted. I hope that in future it will work and that once we get the closed-circuit television we shall have solved these problems satisfactorily.
LORD FERRIER: My Lords, can the noble Earl say when the closed-circuit television system is likely to be available?
EARL ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, I cannot say exactly, but I hope it will be in the early part of next Session.

DERBY FRIAR GATE CHAPEL BILL [H.L.]
Read 2ª, and referred to the Examiners.
FORWARD TRUST BILL [H.L.]
Read 2ª, and referred to the Examiners.

NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE REORGANISATION BILL [H.L.]
THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That on the Report stage of the National Health Service Reorganisation Bill the Amendments be considered in the following order, vizt,:

Clauses 1 to 6,

Schedule 1,

Clauses 7 to 15,

Schedule 2,

Clauses 16 to 39,

Schedule 3,

Clauses 40 to 56,

Schedules 4 and 5,

Clause 57.—(Lord Aberdare.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 2) BILL
LORD ABERDARE: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Jellicoe, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2ª—(Lord Aberdare.)
On Question, Bill read 2ª: Committee negatived.

INSURANCE COMPANIES BILL [H.L.]
3.57 p.m.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (THE EARL OF LIMERICK): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time. I hope your Lordships will share my gratification that this Bill has been entrusted to your Lordships' House. It seems to me appropriate that it should be so, for there exists among our membership a very wide experience in many areas of the great insurance industry. We have the capacity to make a major contribution to the discussion of this important question, and I have no doubt that this is just what your Lordships will do.
The purpose of this Bill is to refine and supplement the Insurance Companies Acts 1958 to 1967. The 1958 Act was itself a consolidation of Acts passed between 1909 and 1946. It has fortunately been possible to spend a little more time on reviewing recent experience and developments in prospect before embarking on the preparation of this Bill than seems to have been the case with some of its predecessors. In particular there have been extensive consultations with insurers, with insurance brokers, with accountants, actuaries and lawyers and with consumer organisations, revealing a large measure of agreement with the conclusions we have reached. We intend to take further time to ensure that we get the consequential details right; wherever appropriate the Bill provides for these to be filled in by Statutory Instruments which will be drafted after further consultations. We shall not, however, be reaping the full benefit of the new provisions until the details have been filled in, and I shall see that we press on with this as soon as the Bill has been passed. I look forward at that stage to receiving the same co-operation and immensely helpful advice from the industry as we have been fortunate enough to receive in preparing the Bill.
Although accordingly the Bill does not go into the more esoteric detail, it is nevertheles of some complexity, and I shall not claim, in introducing it, to
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explain to your Lordships all the niceties of the changes which it would make in the two existing Acts. I shall try rather to bring out the general principles upon which it is founded. I hope that I may be given the time I shall need to do justice to this. Your Lordships may wonder why such complexity is necessary: what is so special about insurance business that it should need so much more surveillance than business of other kind. This is in fact an area in which we have had legislation providing a form of consumer protection for more than a century. I will put the reasons as briefly as possible. People and companies seek the protection of insurance against risks that could cripple them financially, possibly with serious repercussions upon their families and their employees. In the case of long-term insurances the object is rather different; it is to save, in order to provide for old age or for the needs of dependants. But in each case, when the policy holder puts down his money he has to put his trust in the integrity and competence of the insurer: if this trust is misplaced his own prudence in insuring is to no avail.
The form and extent of supervision designed to reduce the risk of insurance failures has changed through the years, but a modified form of the caveat emptor doctrine has been the guiding principle throughout. This has usually been referred to as "freedom with publicity", meaning that the insurer normally has more or less complete freedom to run his business as he thinks fit, but must make available certain prescribed information to help the policy holder take a view as to his likely ability to pay up if and when the occasion for indemnity arises.
We do not share the view which prevails in some other countries that it is necessary for the Government to regulate premium rates, policy conditions and the choice of investments. We are content, as a general rule, to leave these areas to the free play of competition with all its advantages to our industry, to the consumer and to the economic interest of the country. But there are circumstances in which the Government must be in a position to react quickly and appropriately in order to protect the interests of policy holders, interests which may extend many years into the future.

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I say "the Government" advisedly. We have carefully considered the arguments which have been advanced in various quarters for hiving off this responsibility to some specialised independent agency or to the industry itself. I do not believe that either House of Parliament would willingly see Ministers divest themselves of accountability for the protection of the public in this area. Yet, if they did not do so, no specialised agency could be truly independent and there would inevitably be duplication of effort. Provided that adequate resources are made available—and we have already advised our intentions in that respect—there is no reason to suppose that a Government Department is inherently less capable of effective supervision than some other form of organisation, and indeed the experience of the present supervisors in this highly specialised field is widely recognised. It is public knowledge that the British Insurance Association have, at the request of the Secretary of State, given great thought to the practicability of their undertaking a measure of supervision of their own members. They have concluded that this would be inconsistent with their status as a voluntary trade association and the Secretary of State felt bound to accept this view.
Until 1967 the Board of Trade's function was limited to prescribing the information to be made public and to securing the winding up of any company which could be shown to have become technically insolvent. That function was extended in an important way in 1967 when the Board of Trade were given powers in specified circumstances to require an insurance company to take various kinds of action with a view to averting a risk of insolvency. The present Bill is largely concerned with refining and complementing those powers of intervention in the light of subsequent experience in administering them. Clauses 11 to 16 and 20 do this by reformulating and extending the powers given by Sections 65, 68 and 80 of the 1967 Act. The somewhat artificial distinction between a newly authorised company and an established one is removed, and the Secretary of State may invoke whatever action may appear most appropriate in the circumstances of the particular company for protecting policy holders against
1158
the risk of insolvency. In the case of long-term insurance, where policy holders may reasonably expect substantially more than their contractual rights (as in the case of "with profit" policies), it is those reasonable expectations which are to be the criterion.
These powers give a wide discretion to the Secretary of State to react speedily and flexibly to a threat of insolvency while there is still a hope of averting it by appropriate corrective action. In other words, to maintain the company in a state to continue to meet the present and future claims of policy holders. This consideration is paramount. The discretion needs to be wide because it is impossible to foresee all the circumstances in which an insurance business might run into trouble, and whether the more obvious safeguards and remedies will be adequate to meet such cases.
The 1967 Act gave the Department another important new power; namely, to require information to be included in the annual returns of insurance companies of a different kind from that given in conventional accounts. This power was used in Regulations made in 1968 to lay the foundation for a new method of testing the adequacy of the provisions made for outstanding and future claims—a major element in the determination of an insurer's solvency and one of the most difficult to assess. There is already reason to believe that methods devised by the Department to use this information—the new returns are available for only two years so far—will enable them to make more confident judgments of the trend of a company's affairs and the adequacy of the provision it has made for liabilities not yet quantifiable with certainty. Thus, although these predictive judgments can never be infallibly right, the Department are now becoming better equipped to make use of powers of a more discriminating kind than those provided in 1967.
In order yet further to improve the information upon which we can base our judgment of the need for intervention, Clause 6 enables the Secretary of State to require returns from all companies more frequently than annually (quarterly is what we have in mind) Clause 7 enables him to require notification of prescribed kinds of transactions; Clause 17 enables him to require a company carrying on long-term business to make

1159
actuarial investigation within the three-year maximum interval; Clause 18 permits a shortening of the normal six-month interval for making annual returns and Clause 19 improves the powers to require other information ad hoc from individual companies by means of special inquiries. This last investigatory power will now be generally exercisable so that—and this is an important point—the stigma and presumption of trouble currently attaching to an "inspection" will be removed.
I believe that, however good a system of "paper" returns may be as a monitoring device, it is not a complete substitute for inspection on the ground. In particular, I believe that the study of methods used by the best companies will give us a valuable guide to our assessment of those who may not be so strong. Our aim is not the proliferation of form-filling, but to raise the management control of the less good companies to the standard of the best. This will of course make demands on skilled manpower and we shall have to consider carefully how to deploy it to the best advantage to cater for requirements for special skills. We have taken power in Clause 19(2) to employ outside specialists to help us.
The minimum financial standards required of insurance companies are affected by the Bill in three ways, in each case by enabling the Secretary of State to vary existing requirements, or to impose new ones, by Statutory Instrument. These powers will permit increases, first in the minimum share capital required before a company may be authorised to carry on any class of insurance business and, secondly, in the solvency margin which a company carrying on general insurance—that is to say, non-life insurance—must maintain. Thirdly, the powers will also permit specified categories of assets to be ignored and others to be discounted in calculating solvency. Rules for the estimation of liabilities may also be laid down. This will be particularly important in the case of long-term business and I shall presently refer to it further. Clauses 1, 27 and 31 deal with these powers.
It may surprise your Lordships that it should be thought necessary to provide specially for the better protection of holders of life insurance and endowment policies and annuities, to which the
1160
Acts refer as long-term business. It is many years since a long-term insurance business has failed and we fervently hope that this happy state will long prevail. But prominent members of the industry have publicly expressed some misgivings that the large, virtually permanent funds which accumulate in the course of carrying on this type of business may attract the attention of persons anxious to apply them in pursuance of other of their activities, activities which might not give the necessary degree of security for the interests of the long-term policy holders. Those other activities could include general insurance business, such as motor insurance in which underwriting has been markedly unprofitable in recent years for many companies. But we must also have regard to the tendency, observed in the United States, for the funds of long-term insurance to be used as a springboard for the creation of so-called conglomerates; empires of diverse industrial and commercial enterprises under the same ownership.
If a crisis occurred, it could be on a grand scale. In this country the total assets of life insurers are of the order of £15,000 million, representing the savings of many millions of policy holders. The Bill provides safeguards for the preservation of these vast sums in a number of ways. First, Clause 8 requires the assets and liabilities of a long-term insurance business to be distinguishable at all times from those of any other business carried on. Clause 9 restricts the application of the assets representing the long-term funds to the proper purposes of the long-term business and defines the circumstances in which withdrawals from those funds may be made after an actuarial investigation. Second, in valuing both the assets and the liabilities in the course of such an investigation, the actuary will be required to observe certain minimum standards to be prescribed by regulations under Clause 31.
As regards the assets, we shall give special consideration inter alia to investments in associated companies. These are not necessarily undesirable, but we shall probably put a limit on the extent to which they may be admitted as cover for the liabilities of the long-term business. As regards long-term liabilities, the valuation regulations will also have the effect of preventing credit being taken prematurely for the bonus loadings in

1161
the future premiums payable by with-profit policy holders. Thirdly, once a surplus has been shown, in accordance with these standards, to exist, the company will be required to give advance notice if it intends to distribute that surplus in a manner significantly less favourable to the policy holders and more favourable to the shareholders than has been its custom. Clause 4 clarifies certain aspects of the existing provisions relating to actuarial investigations and requires that the person to be responsible for them be named to the Department.
We hope that these provisions will ensure that long-term insurance business will continue to be properly conducted so that, as a result, not only will the sums assured under policies be forthcoming when due, but also policy holders entitled to participate in profits will continue to receive the bonuses arising from proper investment of their premiums. Should a company carrying on long-term business nevertheless come before the court for winding up, the liquidator will be required under Clause 30 to continue that business separately from any other business carried on, until such time as it can be seen whether the long-term business as such is viable. If it is—and it is rarely likely to be beyond salvaging to the advantage of the policy holders—it will be for the liquidator, subject to the approval of the court and with such independent actuarial assistance as he may need, to negotiate a transfer of the longterm business to new owners.
In the extreme case where this is not the most reasonable course to adopt, the long-term policy holders' claims upon the separate funds of the long-term business will be equitably determined in accordance with new winding up rules to be made under Clauses 28 and 29. There are already provisions governing the amalgamation or transfer of long-term business and certain defects in these are rectified in Clauses 25 and 26.
Because these quite complicated provisions are necessitated in part by the freedom of authorised insurance companies to carry on general insurance business concurrently with long-term, power is taken in Clause 3 to refuse in future to entertain applications for authorisation which would result in new composite companies being created.
1162
I turn to the important provisions which are concerned with securing, so far as possible, that the control and management of insurance companies do not fall into the hands of unsuitable persons. It is an essential feature of insurance business that payment is made in advance to secure indemnification for losses or liabilities which may arise during a given period, and in many cases the amount of the loss of liability cannot be determined for some considerable time after the occasion for it has arisen. Thus, the insurer holds very substantial sums in trust for those of his policy holders who have occasion to make claims. Moreover he will normally be using the current cash flow of new premiums to meet claims as they fall due for payment, especially if the premium income is expanding. Thus, there is a wide possibility for fraudulent or incompetent handling of large sums at the expense of the insuring public. Potential beneficiaries include not only the policy holders themselves but also innocent third parties, such as the victims of road accidents.
The extreme case is, of course, that of life insurance, to which I have referred, where temptingly large funds build up. The policy holder, committed as he is to a long-term contract, is particularly vulnerable during the greater part of his life to unforeseeable changes in management or ownership. The present position is that the Department is bound to refuse an application for authorisation to carry on a class of insurance business if it appears to the Secretary of State that an officer, or a major shareholder of the company, is not a fit and proper person. The relevant section, Section 64 of the 1967 Act, does not define fitness, and we are not required to give reasons for rejecting an application.
Currently the situation is rather different either when a new person moves into one of the relevant positions—for example, when the company is taken over by new owners—or when information comes to our notice which throws doubt on the continued fitness of a person already in such a position. In these circumstances we now have to follow the rather cumbersome procedure laid down in Section 68 of the 1967 Act—that is, to put it rather badly, we have to threaten to put a stop on the acceptance of further premiums unless the

1163
person whose fitness is in question is removed or unless the Department can be convinced that their doubts are groundless. They must allow the company a month in which to make representations before imposing such a restriction and they must give particulars of their reasons for thinking the person unsuitable.
All this is prima facie very reasonable and desirable, since the freedom of the individual concerned to pursue his chosen line of commercial activity is at stake. Indeed, when the provision was introduced in 1967 there were misgivings on the part of some noble Lords that there was no provision for appeal to an independent authority, either in these circumstances or where an application for initial authorisation was rejected. I have to explain, however, that in practice even the constraints upon us which I have described have been found to make it difficult or even impossible to give the public the degree of protection which they may reasonably expect.
There is no problem about the man who was convicted of company fraud a couple of years previously, but this is not the typical case with which we have to deal. There may perhaps be a conviction of a dubiously relevant nature, or one many years ago, which makes the judgment a little more difficult. But the really difficult case is where the man's previous activities have left such doubts as to either his competence or his honesty as would lead any prospective employer to eliminate him from his short list of candidates but which would be extremely difficult to substantiate to the satisfaction of any judicial tribunal. Moreover, such information may reach us from sources well placed to judge and to advise, but which are willing to assist us in this way only on the assurance that the source will not be revealed. Often the nature of the information is such that its disclosure would almost certainly permit identification of the source and the consequence would be the loss of that assistance in the future.
Clauses 2, 21, 22 and 32 of the Bill seek to remove the Department's genuine difficulties in exercising their protective function, while improving the opportunity for persons whose fitness may be called
1164
in question to convince us that we are mistaken in our view. Clause 32 makes a change of control of a company dependent on our first being satisfied as to the fitness of the persons concerned. Clause 11 permits the imposition of precautionary requirements in such a case until such time as the actual performance of persons to whom there is no evident objection can he assessed.
I recognise that there may be those who think that these powers to control entry to the business are harsh and potentially unfair to the individual. To them I would say three things. First, it would be expensive folly to build up an expanded apparatus of supervision and control of initial entry but leave it open to penetration by the imprudent or the fraudulent operator. Second. I believe that we are seeking to do no more than any of your Lordships would do privately if you were looking, for colleagues in a business of this kind and if your own money were at risk. Third, I believe that most people would agree that we are right to require exceptionally high—and I use this phrase deliberately—standards of morality and competence from those who seek to control the destinies of an industry so uniquely important to the consumer.
There is a counter-weight to the important discretionary powers for the Department to restrain undesirable conduct to be found in Clause 36. This gives powers to modify normal requirements, subject to appropriate safeguards, so as to give relief to a company in whose particular circumstances the full rigour of those requirements would be unduly onerous. This is a consolidation and refinement of a number of existing powers and is extended to include the new requirements provided for in Clauses 4 to 10. Finally, it is proposed in Clause 38 to take power to make regulations as to the form and content of insurance advertisements in place of the rather inadequate requirements in Section 25 of the 1958 Act, and in Clause 39 to require disclosure of connections between an insurance broker and an insurer. Clause 41 removes a doubt as to the validity of certain group policies.
My Lords, in this brief summary of the principal clauses of the Bill, I have tried to avoid wearying your Lordships' House with overmuch detail. If it still appears to be a somewhat complex Bill

1165
I think that may be attributed to two main causes: first, that the subject matter is inherently complex; and second, that the structure of the Bill is complicated by the fact that we already have two Acts—the Insurance Companies Act 1958 and, superimposed upon it, Part II of the Companies Act 1967. We are adding a third, but a good deal of this will replace or modify parts of the two earlier layers rather than introduce new principles. In short, it raises, or permits to be raised, the existing minimum financial standards; it intensifies the closeness of monitoring by the Department and it gives them more flexible powers to intervene if the need should arise.
The detailed conduct of insurance business will still be left normally to the enterprise and good sense of competent managements, thus preserving the benefits to the consumer of innovation and fair competition. Moreover, this is achieved with a relatively modest expenditure of resources on supervision, as compared with the more extensive control which some other countries have imposed. Although we have almost certainly tried to supervise insurance too cheaply in the past, there is a point at which the returns for increased expenditure must diminish sharply. I think that with the refinements provided by the Bill and the increased resources to which the Explanatory Memorandum refers, we shall achieve a reasonable balance. I would certainly not be so rash as to claim that this Bill, or any conceivable Bill, or any conceivable increase in supervisory staff, will prevent there ever being another insurance failure. It is, however, only fair that the Department should have all the powers and resources it reasonably needs to give the public a reasonable degree of protection; there is no doubt that this is what the public expect and are prepared to pay for.
I commend this Bill for consideration by your Lordships' House as a useful and necessary measure of consumer protection, drafted with regard to the continuing health and vigour of one of our major industries. I shall do my best to clarify at the end of this debate any aspect of it to which noble Lords may wish to give special attention.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2ª.—(The Earl of Limerick.)
4.26 p.m.
LORD DIAMOND: My Lords, I am sure that all your Lordships will wish me first of all to thank the noble Earl for the full and careful explanation he has given to the House of the general effect and some of the details of this particular Bill. I assure him straight away that we share the gratification to which he referred at the start of his speech, that we in this House are dealing with this Bill first, for the very reasons that he gave. It is obvious, therefore, that from this side of the House we are not going to seek to divide the House against the Second Reading of this Bill, both in the circumstances to which he and I have referred and having regard to the nature of the Bill. I want, however, to do two things in a speech which I am afraid is bound to take a little time, but I hope not to try your Lordships overlong. First, I want to pursue the assumption that this Bill will pass your Lordships' House and therefore to indicate the kind of matters with which we shall seek to deal on the Committee stage. Then I should like to invite your Lordships to look at the general approach of the Government to this very important issue of insurance and to consider whether it is the only or the best approach.
First of all, then, may I deal with the matters which we shall broadly seek to improve at the Committee stage. We shall seek to increase the protection of the short-term policy holder in a number of ways: first, with regard to cover. I have in mind that there are many policy holders who find that most of the terms of a policy in small print—although I am not making the slightest suggestion that they are put in as small print—leave them lacking in the kind of cover for which they thought they were insuring. It may be possible, therefore, to have standard forms of cover for various categories of insurance. We believe also that we might further protect the short-term policy holder on the question of the invalidation of his policy through what I might call the involuntary non-disclosure on a proposal form. I understand that cases have arisen where a proposal form has not asked a relevant question; the answer has not been given; but having regard to the nature of an insurance policy, which we all understand, the policy has been held to be invalid.

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We want also to probe the possibility of protecting the short-term policy holder further by closer control and regulation of agents. I do not refer only to brokers but to anybody who is receiving an agency commission—garage employees who it is alleged have gone to unnecessary lengths to secure commission for themselves by offering advice of an undesirable kind to prospective policy holders, especially with regard to the completion of their proposal forms, and which has again resulted in a claim's not being met when it has arisen. That is so far as the short-term policy holder is concerned. Then we would seek to protect the long-term policy holder more by strengthening the control of the surplus which is allocated to the policy holder and by strengthening the control of the proportion of overhead expenses which is charged to life business. We would seek to strengthen the prevention of fraud by further provisions in relation to the identification of assets, a matter which is referred to in the Bill, and by strengthening provisions against investment in or loans to associated companies. All these are matters which I hope my noble friend Lord Jacques will develop more fully when he comes to speak later on in the debate.
Then we would seek to protect the individual against injustice through the possibly arbitrary decisions of a Secretary of State. The noble Earl referred to this matter with some obvious hesitation, some very proper hesitation, if I may say so; it is a very difficult issue indeed, and we should therefore want to discuss it more fully on Committee. Obviously, what I am getting at is that we must avoid the attitude of "Now you are in, now you are out", and of a person's not knowing why all this has happened. The protection of the individual in carrying on his business as he thinks fit within the law of the land is an important protection. I hope my noble and learned friend Lord Stow Hill will develop this matter when he speaks later on.
Further we would, during the Committee stage, seek to protect the well-run company against the stigma of investigation, to which the noble Earl again referred. It is a very difficult issue. Investigation is to see that adequate in-
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formation is given, and may be for no bad reason, but it is very difficult to persuade people that it is for a good reason and not for a bad reason. That being so, one has to take great care that the stigma which might otherwise attach to an investigation—and one must assume that information about investigations always gets out—shall not do so. These I are Committee matters, but they are important. They are matters we shall seek to raise at Committee stage, together with any others which any of your Lordships or my noble friends think of, and which we think would strengthen the Bill, always making the assumption that this is the right approach for the problems of insurance as they have been shown to exist.
What I now want to do is to stand well back from the Bill and to look at the policy which the Government are adopting, and to ask whether it is the right policy and whether it is the only one. And to assist your Lordships in coming to a conclusion on that I think I must trouble your Lordships with the history of insurance legislation. It was referred to by the noble Earl, and nothing I am going to say is in contradiction of what he said, but I should like to deal with it a little more fully. May I first remind your Lordships that in the 1860s we experienced the failure of two large insurance companies, and as a result Parliament passed the Life Assurance Act 1870. This was followed by the failure of several small insurance companies in the 1920s and the Report of the Clauson Committee, as a result of which further powers were given to the Board of Trade in 1933 and again in 1935.
The failure of the Fire, Auto and Marine Company and a number of other motor insurance companies followed in the 1960s, as a result of which Part IV of the Companies Act 1967 very substantially strengthened the powers of the Board of Trade. But, despite the 1967 Act, there occurred the Vehicle and General failure in February, 1971; and the present Bill, as the noble Earl explained is being introduced largely as a consequence of the Vehicle and General failure.
So we have had a series of rearguard actions taken by the Governments of the time, after some horses have fled, closing certain stable doors, protecting the policy

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holder against further failures. And one is bound to ask (the noble Earl himself referred to it, but did not ask the question) when the next failure might take place. The noble Earl hoped there would not be one. I echo that hope. I am only recounting the history. I dare say—I have not looked up the debates—that on each occasion a Minister expressed himself as reasonably satisfied and very hopeful that no further failure would take place. He would be entitled to do so on the basis of the knowledge he had at the time. I am only saying this is the history of the case as I understand it.
We have had, as a result of these various pieces of legislation, restriction piled upon restriction, and in the present Bill again we have some restrictions varied but a large number of new restrictions introduced. So I think we can properly say that we have now reached a stage when the industry is attempting to function in a straitjacket. The restrictions, both old and new, are many and powerful. There are restrictions on starting an insurance business; there are restrictions on running the business; there are restrictions on stopping running the business; there are restrictions on the kind of insurance business to be undertaken; there are restrictions on the kind of investments; there are restrictions on the methods of valuing those investments; there are restrictions on individuals responsible for running the business; there are restrictions on advertisements. I am giving but a short selection of the restrictions imposed by what will be the three current Acts of Parliament, all seeking to protect the policy holder by the process of adding restriction to restriction, leading to a situation where the scope for private enterprise and competition has been reduced to minimal ebb.
Now, my Lords, what is the insurance of which we are talking? It is a vitally important service, vitally important to the policy holder, both as a means of saving, as the noble Earl said, and as a means of spreading among his fellow countrymen, or wider than that, the risks which are inherent in life. It is of growing importance. One has only to look at the total figures of premiums collected to appreciate this fact. And it is of vital importance also to the State in terms of saving—a most important element in the
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financial management of our economy, and of any country's economy. It is because of this that the State has for many years encouraged life assurance as a form of saving. The result of that has been, as your Lordships are well aware, that almost every year we have had to design methods in the Finance Acts of closing loopholes which have been created by those desirous of transferring the tax savings to which I have just referred to a different purpose. That has continued year after year.
In the present system there are, of course, areas of considerable waste. One has only to compare the proportion of the administrative cost of management with the premium income of various types of insurance to see how forceful this argument is. If we look at National Insurance we see that the proportion is 5·7 per cent.; in the Industrial Injuries Board the proportion is 12½ per cent. Moving now to the companies which are restricted, and are now to be further restricted, we see that so far as motor insurance is concerned the proportion is 31 per cent.; so far as industrial life is concerned, 34 per cent.; and so far as accident insurance is concerned, 38 per cent. In the case of fire insurance, nearly 40 per cent. of the premium the policy holder pays goes in arranging the cover which he is seeking, and only 60 per cent. is left for meeting the risks against which the policy holder seeks to be insured.
Would your Lordships think of the enormous waste which arises in settling motor car claims throughout the country? Actions are going on all over the place all the time. They could all be avoided simply by adopting some method whereby, just as a man who is injured in an accident finds his way into hospital, which is there provided for him, so any damage that he suffers is compensated without all the argument as to whether he is entitled to it. It does not take much to see whether a person has been blinded in both eyes, or whatever it may be; but actions go on year after year—four, five or six years—before being settled. The thalidomide history is not the only history of those who have suffered damage and who have been unable to secure one penny in the normal processes of securing cover, securing repayment from an insurance company. That waste, which

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must be enormous, could be easily avoided.
THE EARL OF LIMERICK: My Lords, may I interrupt the noble Lord? I am not quite clear as to his point here. What he is suggesting is the connection between the thalidomide case and delayed payment of claims by insurance companies?
LORD DIAMOND: My Lords, what I am suggesting is that in the method adopted at the present time, which the Bill perpetuates, there is enormous waste in human activity, and delay in time, before those who are injured can get compensation for their clearly established injury on a variety of grounds of law and the calculation of the compensation. All that could be swept aside under a different system, as I shall disclose. That is the point I am making. I am grateful to the noble Earl for asking about it, because I apparently had not made it clear.
A great deal of work has been done on the subject, as the noble Earl knows, and I think that this is an opportunity for considering that as one element in the question which I am putting to your Lordships' House; that is, whether this is the best and the only philosophy to adopt in dealing with the problems of insurance. The waste again is in the Minister's own Department. I am not saying that any civil servant is not going to be fully occupied in doing what he has been called on to do—of course he will be. But what I am saying is that, according to the Explanatory Memorandum, the Bill will call for, not a total new force but a total force of 100 civil servants to supervise the insurance industry.
Having covered the background, I can now describe what I think is a fair analysis of the Government's attitude. It is to stick to the old cycle of failure followed by restriction, followed by further failure followed by more restriction, until the competitive private enterprise is so restricted as to be incapable of carrying out its traditional function. I would not call that approach to our problems an imaginative one; it is an extremely pedestrian one. If I were to be asked why then has the insurance industry signified its general acceptance of these provisions
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—as I understand it has—I would say, "Well, that is exactly what one would expect" One would expect the existing, well-established companies to say, "Pull up the ladder, Jack; I'm all right." It would not be the first time that that kind of approach had illumined the activities of bodies well established.
I should prefer to see something different. I should prefer to see consideration given to the question of whether, for certain forms of insurance such as life assurance, accident insurance, ills which befall every one of us, we ought not to recognise that competitive private enterprise is no longer appropriate. We ought to consider whether the community should not organise this national service on a national basis. It would clearly lead to an enormous saving in administrative expenses; and most of the problems with which we are battling in this Bill, and in the earlier Bills, would no longer arise. The protection of the policy holder would be complete; his savings, which would need to be held and managed on a commercial basis by an entirely independent body, would be secure; failure and fraud would no longer arise; the policy holder would get more for his money.
To sum up, the Government have decided to travel the old road of ever-greater restriction. I should prefer to see the alternative route examined, of establishing a non-profit-making national service for those forms of insurance that are of very general application. But as we have this Bill before us, all we can do for the time being is to go along with its Second Reading and seek to improve it at the Committee stage.
4.50 p.m.
LORD CACCIA: My Lords, I must start by declaring an interest, as I am myself a director of an insurance company; namely, the Prudential Assurance Company. But, of course, I do not here speak for that company, or for the industry or for any of its associations. I speak purely in my own personal capacity, which is proper and fitting as a Member of your Lordships' House. Having said that, may I start by welcoming the Bill in general and also, as the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, has done, in the fact that it should start in this House.
As a background, I begin from the position that the insurance industry in

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this country has provided a great deal towards its prosperity, economically and socially, and it now has an increased chance to do so and to spread into Europe where our own pioneering work will give us every right to claim to be in the lead. So I would hope that the approach will be one of seeing how the strength and vigour of this industry can be promoted. In saying that, I would not in the smallest degree wish to set aside a debate of the kind that the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, has suggested; that is, about the alternative. But in my own judgment, having considered the matter—and this must be a personal opinion—I should have thought that, despite the failures to which the noble Lord has referred, the public interest is at present being promoted, and indeed has been in the past, by the system which has grown up in this country. But by all means let that be debated; it is a very proper subject for consideration. I think I know the answer, and I dare say the noble Lord is capable of being persuaded in argument at a later stage.
If my approach is adopted, then one is faced not—as I think the noble Lord was saying—with the position of the major companies in this country. They have not been subject to the failures to which he referred. What one is trying to protect the public against are companies who are not perhaps quite so well founded, that undertake risks which, in the interests of the policy holder, have proved to be improper and impossible to be sustained.
On that basis, there are two lines of approach. One is what has been the continental approach, and the other is what has been the approach in this country. The continental approach has been to try to protect the policy holder by laying down by Statute, by act of State, very precise regulations on the matters referred to by the noble Earl, Lord Limerick, such as premium rates, investment policy and so on. That is one route, but it is not the route that we have taken. As the noble Earl pointed out, our route, briefly summarised, has been freedom with publicity and a discretionary power in the hands of the Government to see that the policy holder is protected. To my mind, this Bill quite soundly takes the second course and, in my book, is
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welcome for that; and welcome not only in general but, also, in particular for the provisions to protect life policy holders, who I think are in a special category. Looking at the past and at the future, I should have thought that this is not only the correct way, but is the way to sustain and promote the vigour of this industry which, despite the failures, has up to now been a national advantage. The failures are admitted, but they are the fringe; they are not the substance of the business.
From that, the question arises of the responsibility of the Department of State, once the Board of Trade and now the Department of Trade and Industry. As the noble Earl made clear, under previous Acts the old Board of Trade, and then the Department of Trade and Industry, had responsibility in this area. It was not as if they had no responsibility, nor was the proposition ever put forward that the industry should be able to police itself. You have only to look and see how a competitive business is run to realise that in no circumstances is it conceivable that the industry should on its own, and without any interference at all from the State, be able to police itself and protect the policy holder. It can do a great deal but it cannot do it all, and the responsibility for that under Acts of Parliament over many years has been with the Department of Trade and Industry, or with the Board of Trade before it.
Latterly—and I think this was shown very clearly in the inquiry into the Vehicle and General—the problem has been that the Department had the responsibility, but not necessarily all the powers required and the machinery to do what was needed. This Bill should provide those powers and the machinery to do it, with one proviso to which the noble Earl referred. He said that there would be skilled manpower to carry out the provisions of this Bill. I cannot emphasise too strongly the importance of that element, for if the manpower that is to apply this Bill—assuming that it becomes an Act—is to he a help to the industry, it is essential that it should be skilled and experienced. Otherwise, those people could tie the industry up in so much red tape that we might find ourselves in the difficulties to which the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, referred, and which in general is not a risk of the industry at present.

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One aspect to which both the noble Lord and the noble Earl referred, which at first blush makes me hiccough, is Clause 32, with the definition in Clause 2, giving powers to the Secretary of State not only to have reported the people who will be in control, whether on the higher management side or as directors of a company, but, after having given certain warning, to say, as an act of State and power, that such-and-such a person shall not be in a position of control, either on the management side or as a director. I know that such powers exist in legislation in other countries, and that this is a very difficult area, but there is an element of "Big Brother" here which makes me feel uncomfortable.
I realise that this subject has been looked at already, but I hope that it may be looked at yet once again when we come to the Committee stage, to see whether there should be some form of tribunal which could be set up, to which particular cases could be referred: this because under the Bill not only has the Secretary of State complete power to make a decision, but he is also to be excused from giving any reason at all for that decision. In the circumstances described by the noble Earl, I can see that this might be to the advantage of the policy holder, but one then runs into another principle which is of value. I refer to the principle of the liberty of the subject in this country to conduct business, if he so wishes, and not to be prevented unless there is some public process, some public tribunal, some place in which he can defend himself and see that there are valid reasons, accepted by the public, why he shall or shall not be allowed to proceed. But, as I said, I know that this is a difficult area.
I should like to conclude by saying that, apart from that proviso, I would in general welcome this Bill. I hope that it will proceed through this House and, with such Amendments as may be made, will reach the Statute Book as soon as possible. This not only for the health of the industry which it seeks to promote, but to add to the strength of this country at home, both economically and socially, and to give us a chance to spread overseas into Europe and elsewhere.
5.0 p.m.
LORD O'NEILL OF THE MAINE: My Lords, like the noble Lord who has just sat down, I must declare an interest in this matter to the extent that I am a director of the Phoenix Insurance Company; but, also like the noble Lord, I do not speak for any company, or indeed for the industry, but merely as a Member of this House. It may be that I shall cover some of the points made by the noble Lord who has just sat down, but others, I think, have not been mentioned in this debate so far. The far-reaching importance of this new Insurance Companies Bill does not rest solely upon what it seeks to achieve by vesting in the Department of Trade and Industry more flexible powers with which to discharge its responsibilities for the supervision of the solvency of insurance companies. The Bill's importance rests also upon the fact that it is concerned with an industry vital to the economy of this country, because of the major contribution it makes by way of overseas earnings in the invisible sector; an industry which, by virtue of the esteem in which it is held as the leading world insurance market, reflects great credit upon this country.
The flexibility, stemming from a comparative freedom from detailed Governmental regulation, which, unlike its competitors in many other countries, British insurance has traditionally enjoyed within our economy, has been an important factor in the achievement of this leading role. Against increasing world competition and, as has been mentioned already, on the eve of opportunities in Europe, it is imperative that this flexibility be maintained. Within the constraints imposed by the need to provide satisfactory protection for insurance policy holders, this precept has in the main been recognised in the proposed legislation before us, and the long-held tenet of freedom with publicity has been preserved. The new Bill has been welcomed, both by the public and by the insurance industry alike. The British Insurance Association has recorded its general support, and has described the Bill as
"an important advance in giving the Department of Trade and Industry more flexible powers to take effective action to prevent insolvencies of insurance".

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The Life Offices Association, too, has welcomed the Bill, noting with satisfaction that one of its main purposes is the amendment of the law so as to improve the security of life policy holders. Both associations have, however, reserved their positions by stating that they still have to carry out a study of the detailed provisions of the Bill.
During the preparation of the Bill—and of course the Minister knows this only too well—the insurance associations have assisted the Department of Trade and Industry by providing information and technical advice. It is to be hoped that this co-operation will continue over the framing of the regulations provided for in the Bill. I think I am right in saying that the Minister gave that assurance in his speech. The Bill gives the Secretary of State power to put into statutory form practices which have long been adopted by reputable insurance concerns and which are necessary for the protection of their policy holders. It also gives power to the Secretary of State to intervene and to exercise control in a way the insurance industry has for long thought to be necessary. In certain respects, however, it seems to me that the Bill provides powers which are very wide indeed and which may be without precedent in legislation affecting our commerce and industry. Parliament is careful about creating precedents, and is especially careful not to provide powers over individuals and organisations against which there is no appeal in the courts. Consideration should perhaps be given to these points in the later stages of the Bill—with this reservation, my Lords: I believe this to be a Bill which can be commended and one which, while strengthening the protection afforded to the insuring public, is at the same time in the best interests of a great industry and is accepted by it as such.
5.5 p.m.
LORD STOW HILL: My Lords, I hesitate to intervene in this debate because the aspect of the Bill to which wish to direct your Lordships' attention has already been dealt with, if I may say so, so adequately by the arguments of the noble Lord, Lord Caccia, which he introduced by saying that that aspect of it made him hiccough, and by the noble Lord, Lord O'Neill of the Maine. But possibly I might add a little
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to what they have said with regard to what I may compendiously describe as the "fit and proper person" provisions in the clauses of the Bill. I am not a director or a consultant of any insurance company, and I do not know whether the Rules of your Lordships' House require me to say that I have an interest in that, over very many years, I have had the most happy professional associations with insurance companies, which makes me well disposed in their favour. I do not know whether that is, in the terms of your Lordships' Rules, a declarable interest or not. However, there it is.
My Lords, may I pursue the arguments of those two noble Lords a little further by inviting your Lordships to consider a little more in detail the actual "fit and proper person" provisions? One starts with Clause 2. That clause defines what is described as the "controller" or "manager". A controller, broadly speaking, is a director or a chief executive; and may I, for the sake of brevity, use the terms "controller" and "manager"? As the noble Earl said, no company can start to carry on the business of insurance unless it receives an authorisation under Section 61 of the Companies Act 1967. Clause 2 of this Bill provides that the Secretary of State shall not grant an authorisation to a company to begin business if he considers that a controller or manager who is not a fit and proper person is to be associated with that company.
It is not as if we were, as the noble Earl pointed out, introducing a provision of this sort for the first time. It was introduced for the first time, I think, by Section 64 of the 1967 Act. Nor could I (I should have thought) suggest to your Lordships that there is no sort of precedent in other contexts for this kind of provision. When a Bencher of one of the Inns of Court wishes to propose a young man to be called to the Bar, lie has himself to certify in writing that in his opinion the young man is a fit and proper person to be called to the Bar. Earlier this week we were discussing, on Second Reading, the Solicitors (Amendment) Bill, and your Lordships may remember that in that Bill, equally, there is a provision that the governing body of that profession has to be of opinion that a new entrant into the profession is suitable, in terms of character

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and so on, to he a member of the profession. Private, domestic tribunals in which that sort of phrase is used of course abound. It is not, therefore, as if we are wholly strange to provisions, either in private, contractual arrangements relating to tribunals, clubs and so on, or in our legislation at any rate since 1967, to the effect that a person may be prohibited from undertaking a particular activity, or may be otherwise subjected to restrictions, if somebody, whether the committee of a club or, as in this case, an executive Minister, is of the opinion that he is not a fit and proper person.
If I may pause for a moment on Clause 2, if the Secretary of State is of that opinion in the case of any particular company, and accordingly feels that he is under an obligation to refuse an authorisation under Section 61 of the 1967 Act, then, as the noble Earl pointed out, he need give absolutely no reason. There is no requirement that he should say who the person is or on what grounds he thinks that the person concerned is "not a fit and proper person". There is simply a blank with regard to that. The company just does not get the authority.
Then one goes on to Clause 11(1)(e). Your Lordships will have noticed, I am sure, that it is Clauses 12 to 20 which provide most of the extremely drastic powers that are vested in the Secretary of State enabling him to interfere in the conduct of insurance companies. Clause 11 sets out the circumstances in which those powers can be exercised. As I have said, one of those grounds is contained in Clause 11(1)(e). That is the ground which relates to "a fit and proper person". Under that provision, the Secretary of State can exercise these drastic powers contained in Clauses 12 to 20 if he considers a person will be a controller or manager who is
"not a fit and proper person to be associated with the company".
The requirements in that particular case are slightly different. If one goes on to look at Clauses 21 and 22, one finds that if the Secretary of State proposes to exercise any of those powers contained in Clauses 12 to 20, he has to serve certain notices.
The two clauses are somewhat complex and I shall not take up your Lordships'
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time by going into them in detail. But I think that I should be fairly summarising their effect if I said this. Supposing that under Clause 11(1)(e) he proposes to exercise the powers, and in particular the powers under Clause 12, on the ground that there is in his view a manager or controller who is not a fit and proper person in the company, he has to serve a notice on the controller or manager in question. If he wants to exercise his powers under any of the other provisions of Clause 11, he has to specify the grounds. The clauses say that he has to specify the grounds even if he wishes to use the "not fit and proper management" provision of Clause 11. But it goes on to say that in that case the only ground that he need specify is the identity of the manager or controller in question. In other words, he need give no sort of reason. All he says is, "You, 'X', are not a fit and proper person". But if "X" wants to know why, the Secretary of State is under no obligation by the express terms of Clauses 21 and 22 to give any such grounds.
I do not know whether or not the noble Earl, Lord Limerick, will pardon me if I venture to offer what I think is a slight correction to what he said with regard to Section 68 of the 1967 Act. He said that in that case grounds had to be given. I understood him to be implying that the grounds in that case would include grounds for saying that a person was not a fit and proper person. If he looks at it again, I think he will find that he is mistaken. But perhaps I read it wrongly and he is correct.
That is the position under Clauses 21 and 22. Then the noble Earl referred to Clause 32. Clause 32 deals with the situation in which somebody is proposing to become a controller or manager. The Secretary of State can file a notice of objection. Again, he need give no reasons for saying why that person is not, in his view, fit and proper; all he has to do is to serve a notice on that person saying, "I object to you". In order to complete the picture, my Lords, I ought to make this addition. When the Secretary of State serves a notice under Clauses 21, 22 or 32, he must serve a notice on the controller or manager in question telling him that he has the right to make written representations to the Secretary of State or to make oral representations to an officer in his Department. I ask myself

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what is the position of the supposedly unfit person when he receives that notice. He can write a letter to the Secretary of State saying, "Dear Mr. Secretary, you say that I am not a fit and proper person. I have not the remotest idea of why you should think so. But I think that I am a highly fit and proper person." He can do that. He has the further consolation that those clauses provide that when the Secretary of State receives a representation of that sort he must take it into account. What on earth the unfortunate man—if he is unfortunate; he may be an out-and-out rascal, but he may not—is to put in the letter I do not know.
What is his position to be when he goes before an officer and says, "I wish to make an oral representation" He will sec an extremely polite and well-informed civil servant sitting on the opposite side of the table. He will no doubt be invited to sit down and say what he wants to say. He will then ask the civil servant—perhaps it is natural for him to do so—"What have you against me?" He will be met with a stony silence. It is not really giving him much of a safeguard to put him in that position. Therefore in that situation, these drastic powers arise; he can be prevented from becoming a controller, a director, a chief executive or a manager of a company, and he is given no more information that that.
A very odd contrast appears when one looks at Clause 25. As the noble Earl reminded us, it deals with the case where an insurance company is to be transferred, wholly or in part, to a transferee company. The court will be required to sanction the transfer; but one is told in Clause 25 that the court is not to sanction the transfer if, inter alia, the transferee company is not a company which will obtain authority under Section 61 of the 1967 Act to carry on business. In other words, again, if there is associated with the transferee company a not "fit and proper" person, the not "fit and proper" person is given no right to he heard before the court. In contrast, any employee who can say that he will be adversely affected by the transfer is given by Clause 25 an express right to be heard by the court. It is a very unequal situation for these two people. I sympathise with the desire to keep scallywags out of this great industry, but a person may be dubbed a scallywag when he is not.
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If one is trying to make up one's mind whether a young man is a fit and proper person to be called to the Bar, one is undertaking probably a very much easier judgment than one might be undertaking in nine out of ten cases when seeking to assess the behaviour and conduct over ten, twenty or thirty years of somebody associated with an insurance company. I do not know what I would think the words "fit and proper person" mean. In general, I suppose, if the Secretary of State thinks, to put the matter loosely, that the individual is of a shady financial character, he will be justified in saying that he does not think him a fit and proper person. But what else ought he to take into account? Let us suppose that he thinks the man completely incompetent. Does that make him an unlit person? I think it is arguable that it does. But it is hard lines on the individual who may entirely dispute that he is unfit or incompetent. How far does it go? Is the Secretary of State to take into account sexual morals? If a man has been vicious and cruel to his wife, is that relevant? My Lords, one's mind boggles at the idea of what is to be taken into account.
Then it may be said, "Ah, but the Secretary of State is, after all, under our Constitution, responsible to Parliament. When he goes to either of the two Houses lie may find a Question down to him, asking why he exercised his responsibiity in a particlular case in a given way". But when the Statute says in terms that he is under no obligation to give any reason, I should have thought it was difficult to get much out of him by questions. If the questioner says, "Why did you exercise your power under Clause 12 in relation to Mr. X? What have you against him?", I suppose that the right answer would be, "It is expressly enacted that I am not bound to give any reasons, and I cannot think that it would be in the public interest to go against the expressed will of Parliament". So, my Lords, the Secretary of State is impregnable in his place at the Box.
I do not know whether difficulties might arise in the future if there were a really persistent Mr. X who was thoroughly aggrieved at what he thought was a completely unjust decision in his case and who said, "I will harass the Secretary of State. I will issue a writ for libel against him for saying that he

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thinks I am an unfit person The Secretary of State would have qualified privilege. He would be entitled to say, "I have not committed a tort against you because I did not act maliciously". If I were Mr. X and felt strongly about it I might be tempted to put in my reply, "There is plenty of evidence that you acted maliciously, otherwise you could not have come to such an utterly ridiculous conclusion in my case, without having the smallest ground to support the opinion that you have expressed that I am unfit and an improper person". I do not know what documents or what material the Secretary of State would have then, in the course of the proceedings, to furnish to the court in order to defend himself against a claim of that sort. When they get vicious, people can go a long way, and vexatious litigants are very difficult to handle. I can foresee that if someone thought that he was really the victim of a serious injustice he might go a long way and make the position of the Secretary of State very uncomfortable indeed.
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Diamond said that we wished to test this matter in Committee and I hope that your Lordships may think that that is a right course to take. Whether the two noble Lords who spoke last are right in suggesting that there may be some right of appeal, some sort of tribunal, I do not know, but I hope that your Lordships will think that I have not taken up the time of the House unnecessarily. After all, we are a legislative Chamber and we all want to keep rascals out of this great industry. But also we are under a duty not to pass what we have not considered, and not to be oppressive even in our dealings with scallywags. I hope that your Lordships will think that this discussion has been of some value and that it would be appropriate to return to this matter during the Commit tee stage.
5.24 p.m.
LORD SELSDON: My Lords, I feel that in speaking to-day I should declare a rather indirect interest, in that I work for a financial services group which, among its interests, owns two British insurance companies. Like the noble Lord, Lord Caccia, I would point out that
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I am in no way speaking on behalf of the company but rather as a Member of your Lordships' House whose commercial interests occasionally have touched on the insurance field. I think it must be a comparatively rare occasion when Government interference in the commercial world is welcomed by companies, by the Press and by the general public. This is certainly the case with this Bill, for inquiries that I and others have made throughout the industry have shown that on all sides people are unanimous in their belief that some further form of Government control is necessary if certain disasters in the past are not to be repeated. It might not be out of place for me to suggest that if there were closer co-operation between Government, industry and commerce on all fronts at this stage, many of the problems might be overcome.
I have no hesitation at all in supporting my noble friend Lord Limerick, but I should like to take a few brief moments of your Lordships' time to touch first on the general concept and the need for a Bill; secondly, to make a few points on its implementation; and, thirdly, to refer to one or two international aspects. The insurance world is, and has been for decades as we know, an integral part of the economy of this country and, equally important, an integral part of our social life. The whole essential psychology of insurance is that it provides security; security for the man who drives a car, for the pedestrian, the wife, the family and the employer or employee. This sense of security has been built up by years of work and reliable trading by numerous honest and reliable companies, and without any doubt the insurance industry in this country has had one of the best reputations in the world. But, my Lords, you need only one or two occasional failures by companies—they may be spread 100 years apart—whether by failing to meet their commitments or because of failures in certain other areas, and the whole underlying sense of security begins to be eroded. It could perhaps even disappear, with disastrous results to the economy of the country and to our social life as a whole.
As recent events have demonstrated, voluntary controls, however good, have been inadequate, and there are some who would argue that the industry itself has

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failed and has passed the buck to Government. Although there may be an element of truth here, it has been demonstrated that the whole field of insurance is too big and too complex to be operated entirely by voluntary control. Thus, with the support of the industry, the Government, fairly and rightly, step in. But I hope that this is not the thin end of the wedge or that there may be steppings in other areas—perhaps Lloyds of London, or our chartered accountants, or lawyers, or in other professions which have demonstrated their success under voluntary controls and at maintaining high standards. This is a right and a fair Bill and it has been prepared in co-operation with the industry. It is now the Statutory Instruments or Regulations which are awaited with considerable interest. I hope that in preparing these the Government will not over-restrict or at the same time will not under-protect. There is a very fine dividing line which perhaps we shall come to in Committee.
There are two minor points I should like to make here, and I think that they need to be made. First, there is the role of the actuary, which will need to be clearly defined. I know that the D.T.I. will work in close co-operation with the Government actuaries' department. Secondly—this point was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Diamond—there is the question of investing money with associates. I believe that this needs properly spelling out. It is the Regulations and their implementation which will be critical, and I hope that if ever the Government are called on to act they will do so immediately and with the utmost despatch; for in matters concerning insurance companies any element of fear or doubt must be removed or confirmed immediately if the company and its policy holders are not to suffer. It is the speed of action which I believe will be critical above all else.
My Lords, the final area upon which I should like to touch is the international one, for one cannot look at this problem purely in a national context. Without going into the argument on the question of the nationalisation of the industry I should like to say to the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, that if one took the steps which he suggested, it could have disastrous effects upon our overseas earnings, certainly in the field of invisible
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earnings, and that does need watching. Your Lordships will be well aware that insurance legislation in most of the E.E.C. countries is far more restricted than our own and is far more pedantic than our own. Your Lordships also will be aware that in general our insurance companies are larger and more powerful than their equivalents on the Continent; and, I hope, more responsible. But the dynamic international expansion of our companies is envied and feared within the E.E.C. and the whole insurance area is at this time a very delicate and sensitive one.
As we move towards harmonisation it would be wrong for us to forget that if we are forced by other members of E.E.C to accept their standards and restrictions our insurance industry could be severely handicapped, our invisible balance of payments would suffer and it would be totally against the national interest. There are many on the Continent who might welcome restrictions which could handicap our own companies and perhaps reduce the competition. It would be very dangerous indeed if they found a way to use this Bill as a foil to encourage greater restriction, and if they were to claim that its introduction has demonstrated the failure of our own insurance industry to maintain proper standards. Thus, my Lords, I end and sit down making this final point. This Bill is a good Bill, but in no way must it be construed as a general indictment of the insurance industry, but rather as a protection from the would-be black sheep of the future.
5.31 p.m.
LORD HAWKE: My Lords, I think my noble friend Lord Selsdon is quite right to refer to the great benefit that could come to our industry through our entry into the European Community. There is no question that we have the best insurance industry in Europe, if not in the world. I should declare an interest here (of course, we all have an interest in this Bill either as insured or insurers), because I am a director of a small company which is virtually a charitable trust. But that does not stop us from being a fairly efficient company. The business, in general, welcomes the Bill, which has been drafted with tremendous cooperation with them. There are some Committee points on which they are not

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quite satisfied, and I have no doubt that they will be argued in due course.
Many powers already exist. But there has been in the Board of Trade (or whatever they call it nowadays) a reluctance to act. The Department there was probably under-powered, and nobody liked in the old days to take the step of putting in an inspector, which of course was an immediate signal to the world that there was something wrong with the company. Under this Bill it will be possible to have inspections made of very good companies, and I hope that that will be done. If I was the Minister, I would send my inspector first of all to Lord Caccia and his Prudential. Then it would be quite possible in doubtful cases to have an inspector go along without ruining the company. He might find that it was being well conducted. That would be a great improvement on the present situation.
The noble Lord, Lord Stow Hill, has put his finger on an important facet of of this business. He stood up as the apostle of freedom and said: "How can we debar a man from running an insurance company because of unknown charges by bureaucrats behind closed doors?" There is of course great force in that argument. On the other hand, can you leave this important field wide open to the rogues of the world? It is a most attractive field for rogues, particularly from across the Atlantic; and they breed a lot there. You can collect a lot of money, and then you can vanish. Not all forms of roguery are so easy. Once you get your company launched with advertising (they say a "mug" or a sucker "is born every minute), there are always people who will fall for it. You can collect their money and vanish. I think we shall have to stick to the terms in the Bill.
May I, for instance, make a comparison with the money-lending business. I believe you can set up as a moneylender with no character at all. On the other hand, you cannot call yourself a bank, which gives you respectability, without going through a remarkable lot of hoops. I think that that is an analogous case. I do not think the moneylender would find it so easy to collect money from the general public as would somebody vino has permission to call himself a bank.
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The noble Lord, Lord Diamond, in his modern role of lugubrious prophet of doom, started out with a catalogue of restrictions. The other day it was a catalogue of records. He gave a good many, but he left out far more than he gave. I think he said that the British people were drinking far more beer than they have ever done before. I believe British swimmers are swimming faster than they ever swam before. All over the world, every day records are being beaten which are quite outside the purely political field in which the noble Lord was wandering. Here he really was a prophet of doom, and his catalogue of restrictions sounded as if the industry was rapidly coming into a straitjacket and would soon end up in Dartmoor. If we consider every other industry in this country, there is not one of which I am aware that has not, again and again, been legislated upon over the years. As people have found weaknesses and loopholes in our law, so Parliament has drawn up a new law. I suggest to the noble Lord, Lord Diamond, that he should start up a bus company and see what sort of restrictions that carries; or even a milk round, which is perhaps a little simpler; or a food or drugs factory. He will find that he is absolutely enmeshed with restrictions the whole time, and he will be very lucky, if he happens to find a loophole, if another Bill does not appear in no time to stop it up. Anything to do with commerce in this country necessitates a series of restrictions as the community finds that it needs to protect itself from the more undesirable citizens.
I think the general public prefer to have some degree of variety in their insurance. I cannot imagine enormous enthusiasm for buying forms at the overworked counters in a post office, filling them up and then going along to try and get your claim paid when the disaster occurs. It is quite fallacious to think that a Government organisation, to pay out as well as take in, could make a great saving in overhead charges. The service would either not be provided or it would cost much the same as at present. For instance, if there is a fire, we expect to have one of our surveyors on the spot within 24 hours; and we expect that there will be an assessor there within perhaps 48 hours. The Government would have

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to provide these people to do exactly the same.
I think, on the whole that this is a good Bill, but I should like to make one further point. There have been bad insurance companies. They have always been pretty well known to the people in the trade. The reason why people insure with them is because they cut the rates. If you buy cut-price insurance, you get cut price value; and sometimes, if the price is cut too far, you find that your company does not exist any longer. If you pay full price insurance, you get very good attention; and if your company is not strictly legally liable for the loss, you will without fail get an ex gratia payment. That is the virtue of having the operation done by a private system. I cannot see Government Departments paying out ex gratia payments, and I am sure the general public would have no such wish. With other noble Lords, I welcome the Bill, and I am sure that we shall have an interesting Committee stage.
5.39 p.m.
LORD JACQUES: My Lords, I have no financial interest to declare, except that I am a policy holder. But I do not seek to disguise the fact that during my working life I was deeply associated with the Co-operative Movement, in which there is a large co-operative insurance society—in fact one of our biggest societies, with assets of £600 million. And still less do I seek to disguise that my lifetime experience in the Co-operative Movement tends to influence my judgment on some things.
Like my noble friends and other noble Lords, I appreciate the initiative in having this Bill commencing in this House. I also appreciate the very lucid explanation of the Bill which was given by the Minister. Because of the nature of insurance, it is inevitable that there must be a strong need for consumer protection. The policy holder pays a premium and in return he gets a mere promise—a promise that on the happening of some event the insurer will pay. The State must be concerned as to whether the people who make the promise are suitable persons, and it must also be concerned with their capacity to carry out their promise.
It has already been explained that insurance is generally of two kinds: the
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short term and the long term. The short term, such a household, fire and motor, is on a year-to-year basis. The long term is quite different: it involves the subscription of premiums, very often over a long period of years. Consequently, the sums held by the insurance establishments on behalf of policy holders are exceedingly great, and in those circumstances it is right and proper that the interests of the policy holders should be protected by the State. At the present time there is nothing to prevent anybody from buying an existing insurance establishment, provided that the shareholders are willing to sell.
I should like to illustrate that by giving a quotation taken from the Colour Supplement of the Sunday Times last Sunday. It is a very brief quotation from an article on John Bentley, who is described as a new-style millionaire. It says:
"His major break came in 1965. He went to see Jim Slater (of Slater, Walker fame) with an incredible-sounding idea which he said would guarantee a return of £100 million for an outlay of only £2·5 million. He'd discovered that an insurance company, Scottish Life Association, was capitalised at a mere £2·5 million, yet controlled book investments worth £40 million and had hidden reserves of another £60 million. The two of them bought up 8 per cent. of the equity before the company's board discovered what was happening. The deal was caught in the bud, but the shares doubled. They had to be content with only a 100 per cent. profit but Slater was so impressed that he took Bentley under his wing."
That, I think, shows the way in which anybody can get hold of an insurance company and get access to the huge sums which policy holders have paid. Because of that it is absolutely imperative, so long as we have this system, that the State should protect the policy holders. My noble friend pointed out that this protective legislation commenced one hundred years ago. I am concerned with more recent history, especially the last twenty years.
The large and growing market for motor insurance has attracted some newcomers. The newcomers come in very often inexperienced and prepared to take far greater risks than the established companies. Very often they are prepared to cut the rates in order to get in, and consequently as might be expected, there have been failures. The failure of Fire, Auto and Marine and other companies in the 1960s caused Parliament to strengthen the powers of the Board of Trade

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in the Companies Act 1967. Despite this, however, in 1971 we had the failure of the Vehicle & General. Overnight this left 10 per cent. of motorists without cover. In addition, it placed other people in a very serious position. For example, the motorist whose car had been damaged by a negligent driver who had been insured by the Vehicle & General had no claim for the damage to his car, except against the driver, who was probably unable to meet the damage.
In an indirect sense the failure of the Vehicle & General affected all of us who drive motor cars, because in 1946 the motor insurers gave an undertaking to the then Minister of Transport that if a court gave a judgment on any liability required to be insured by law and that judgment remained unpaid for seven days, they would meet the bill at once. It was intended that that should cover the uninsured driver or the driver who was ostensibly insured but had not fulfilled all the conditions. But the undertaking was wide enough to cover the failure of other companies, so we now have the ironic position that a newcomer can come into the industry, can cut the premiums and, as a result of his recklessness, become insolvent, and a large part of the bill will have to be met by the established insurers within the industry.
It is estimated that arising out of the failure of the Vehicle & General the established companies within the insurance industry will probably have to meet a bill for £7 million arising out of the undertaking given in 1946. However, the members of the British Insurance Association sustained a loss of £31 million on motor insurance in 1970. I think we can assume, therefore, that if the insurers get this bill of £7 million from the Motor Insurers' Bureau they will have very little choice but to pass it on to the consumer. So all of us, in one way or another, will have to pay for the failure of the Vehicle & General, together with any other failure that there might be in the future in that particular field of insurance. Therefore, I believe that in the present circumstances this Bill is absolutely necessary, and has not come too early.
I should like to concentrate on three purposes of the Bill, which go to the heart of it, and to express an opinion
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as to where it perhaps does not go far enough and also where it probably goes too far. The first important purpose of the Bill is to strengthen the solvency requirements for general business; that is, the year-to-year business. The Bill does this in two ways: it gives the Department of Trade and Industry power to increase the safety margin, or the solvency margin, whichever one cares to call it, by way of regulations. That means that the Department can insist that the excess of assets over liabilities can be greater than it has otherwise been. Secondly, it gives the Department power by regulations to ensure that the liabilities are not understated and the assets are not overstated.
These are welcome provisions; they are absolutely essential. We shall seek to give further guarantees to the policy holder of motor insurance. My noble friend has outlined some of these. I do not think I need to comment further on them at this stage. I am more interested in the second of the principal objects. This is to strengthen the safeguards against the misuse of assurance funds. This is the long-term business. The Bill does this in a number of ways: first, there is the welcome provision that the assets of the life assurance fund should be separately identified. I doubt whether the provision, as it stands, goes far enough. It is not quite clear whether it would be sufficient to make an apportionment of the assets at the time when the annual balance sheet was prepared, or whether the assets of the life assurance fund have to be kept separate on receipt, and have to be separately identified at all times thereafter. I hope that the provision means the latter.
Secondly, the Bill provides that the assets of the life assurance fund shall be applied only for the purposes of the life assurance, except in so far as the assets exceed the liabilities. I have grave doubts as to whether the clauses on this point go far enough. I hope that we shall bear in mind that the investigation into Vehicle & General showed that it had two subsidiaries, and that they carried on life assurance. From one of these subsidiaries Vehicle & General borrowed £1 million for use in its motor business. The time has come when we should say quite definitely that the life funds of any company shall not be used, not only in

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any business of that company but also in the business of an associated company. This is good business practice. For example, Jim Stater, shortly after the failure of Vehicle & General, bought from the liquidator one of the subsidiaries carrying on life assurances. He at once declared that the life funds would not be used by his company, or any company with which he was associated. If that was good enough for Jim. Slater, it should be gcod enough for the Government, especially with the Minister's right honourable friend, Mr. Walker, as head of the Board of Trade.
We have doubts as to whether the Bill goes far enough so far as expenses are concerned. The Vehicle & General, in its latter years, charged management fees to its life insurance subsidiaries. There are grave doubts as to whether those fees were reasonable. It is generally thought that the fees which were charged to the life fund of the subsidiaries were excessive. We believe that this problem should be dealt with now, and should be dealt with decisively. It should be the responsibility of the directors and managers of a life assurance company to ensure that no expenses are charged to the life assurance fund which are not attributable to life insurance, and they should certify that they have observed this procedure when they sign the annual return. That is the kind of provision that should be made to stop the milking away of the funds which properly belong to the life policyholders.
Thirdly, the Bill provides that the proportion of excess of assets over liabilities which are distributed to the policy holders should not be materially reduced without appropriate publicity. I am a little concerned as to what is meant by "materially reduced", for I find m Clause 10(2)(b) that it is proposed that the shareholders could, if they so wished, reduce the proportion which goes to the policy holders by 1 per cent. in a year; and that that amount would not be regarded as "material"; it would not require publicity. May I point out that the majority of companies carrying on life assurance take less than 10 per cent. of the profits of life assurance—the figure of 10 per cent. would be rather high, but let us assume that it is 10 per cent. They could take 11 per cent. in one year, 12 per cent. in the next year, and, in the
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course of a short period of five years, they could increase the proportion taken by the shareholders by 50 per cent. We believe that this particular clause should be deleted from the Bill.
There are also other excellent provisions for the safeguarding of policy holders. In particular, there is the provision that life policy holders shall have prior claim on life assurance funds in insolvency. The liquidator should be required to continue the life assurance business, if possible. This is a very welcome provision. Furthermore, it is provided that a life assurance company cannot be wound up voluntarily. This is long overdue. At the present time a life assurance company can be purchased, it can be put into voluntary liquidation and the benefits can be taken by the new owners, to the disadvantage of the policy holders.
I come now to the last way in which the Bill seeks to strengthen the present controls. It strengthens the power to require information, and to intervene where there is doubt as to the soundness of the company, or the fitness of the directors and managers. As a whole, these prcriisions are welcome because they are, to a large extent, necessary. But we feel that this is a field in which the Bill probably goes too far. I give two examples. First, Clause 19(1) gives very wide powers to the Secretary of State. He can ask any company in the insurance business 'or any information at any time, and can specify that it has to be certified in any way. Those are very wide powers. They are powers that could be unreasonably used by a keen civil servant against a well-established company. Remember, my Lords: a keen civil servant is sometimes regarded as an over-zealous bureaucrat. We believe that the well-established, manifestly sound company should be safeguarded against that possibility. It seems to us that Clause 19 without subsection (1) would be ample to give the necessary controls to the Secretary of State. But if the subsection has to stay, we think it should be qualified; it should specify the grounds when the information can be demanded. We suggest that the grounds in Clause 11(1), (2) and (4) would be adequate for that purpose.
Clause 11(4) is another example of where the powers proposed go too far. As I understand it, Clause 11(4) deals

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with new companies. It gives the Secretary of State extensive powers in relation to new companies. He has some of those powers at the present time, but he has them for only five years. Under the Bill he would have them indefinitely. Is it reasonable that the Secretary of State should have unusual powers against the new company indefinitely? Surely there comes a point of time when a new company is an estabished company and should be treated like everybody else within the industry. I would suggest that ten years would be sufficient. If the company had not been sufficiently established at the end of ten years, then there would be other grounds in Clause 11 which could be used so that the Secretary of State could exercise the powers.
I may say, too, that I personally was very much impressed by the suggestion that there might be a tribunal as a tribunal of appeal when a person is regarded as unfit by the Secretary of State. I certainly believe that in the interests of the individual there should be some kind of precaution of that kind. In conclusion, my Lords, may I say that, as a measure of consumer protection, we welcome this Bill. We will conscientiously try to improve it in Committee, and we hope that in that spirit we shall have the co-operation of the Government Front Bench.
6.1 p.m.
THE EARL OF LIMERICK: My Lords. I am most grateful—I say this quite sincerely—to noble Lords for the understanding they have shown in this debate: understanding both of the complexities of the subject and of the difficulties which it presents to a Department charged with the protection of the public without undue curtailment of the benefits to be derived by the consumer from a substantial degree of freedom of enterprise. All the comment we have had has been constructive and I shall study it. Inevitably, some insurance managements will make mistakes in the view they have to take of future events. And no less inevitably the Department will make some in assessing the validity of the conclusions and policies of those managements, and in deciding when and how to intervene. Our objective is not primarily to penalise post facto dishonest or incompetent managements, but to protect policy holders
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by taking or requiring suitable corrective action in time to avert the consequences of imprudent or misguided policies.
I turn now to points to which noble Lords have drawn particular attention, and I shall do my best to illuminate them. The noble Lord, Lord Diamond, was kind enough to give notice of the points which he would wish to examine more closely in Committee, and I appreciate that. As he himself said, most of these are Committee points and I do not think he would expect me to comment on them. I should however like to refer to just two. One was the question of surpluses and the percentage of expenses charged against life funds. That is precisely what our regulations will be for. In the course of discussion with the industry we shall work out an appropriate framework. The second point is the one about investigation and the noble Lord's worry that a well-run company needed protection from the stigma of investigation. I have two points to make on that. The first is perhaps a rather obvious one. How do we know, without investigation, that a company is well run? On the second point, the words I would have used were taken from my mouth by the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, and the point was one I made in my speech. If we have more inspection, the stigma will be greatly diminished and will disappear. I also assume that our inspectors will be knocking on some very eminent doors in the not too distant future. They will become more like auditors, people one expects to see, and their arrival will occasion no comment.
The noble Lord, Lord Diamond, then took us through an historical review, and here again I find myself in close agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Hawke, in that the development we have seen is not surprising. Insurance is a complex industry. It is one engaged in by highly intelligent people using sophisticated techniques. It is therefore not surprising that the poacher and the gamekeeper should be playing leapfrog. I thought Lord Diamond departed from his normal standards of consistency, though, in some of the remarks which he made in that section of his speech. On the one hand, he wants increased protection in the detailed areas which he listed. On the other hand, he complains that the industry finds itself in a straitjacket, which is hardly in accordance with the welcome accorded to

1197
this Bill by the B.I.A. He wants less restriction on entering, and he is concerned with the high level of staff which we have for supervision, which, as I could well illustrate in relation to almost any other country, is still very much on the low side. But I am grateful to him for bringing out these points because I think they illustrate precisely the dilemma we have in looking at this whole area of control.
The noble Lord then went on to talk about a more radical remedy. I will not follow him far down the path that leads to nationalisation, except to say, as I feel I should, that I find myself in complete disagreement with his analysis of the Utopia which he expected to find at the end of that road. In particular, I would question his assumptions about the possibility of continuing innovation in a nationalised industry. I would question his assumptions that cost ratios would fall. I do not think that that has been the experience in other fields. Also, like my noble friend Lord Selsdon, I would greatly fear the effect of nationalisation of the industry on its very substantial contribution to our invisible earnings. But I think we shall not agree on this point, and indeed the noble Lord himself recognised that it was outside the scope of this Bill, whatever other Bills might be brought forward on some dim, distant future day.
The noble Lord, Lord Caccia, gave a general welcome to the Bill and referred in particular to the need for skilled manpower for the purpose of supervision. Here I find myself in close agreement with what he said, but I would point out that the skills required for the supervision of the insurance industry, and for the management of insurance companies, are very different skills and require very different techniques. We have recently engaged as a senior adviser to the Department an ex-general manager of one of the big insurance companies; we have an advisory committee; we are exploring with the industry other possibilities in this direction, and it is very much in mind. The noble Lord, Lord Caccia, then referred to Clause 32 and the power of exclusion. He referred to his feeling of discomfort on the question of a tribunal, and this was echoed later on by many other noble Lords. Here I would say that the dilemma is very well recognised. Anyone who has to exercise these judg-
1198
ments must feel uncomfortable about them, and I would say also that we are prepared to look at any proposal which is put forward on these lines. I cannot say that I am optimistic that there will emerge a proposal which meets our very real difficulty, on which we spent a long time in discussion and consideration.
It revolves, really, around three things. One is the safeguarding of confidentiality. The second is the burden of proof; think it is the experience of tribunals that if one is set up it tends to behave more and more like a court and demands higher and higher standards of proof. The third is the scope, the very substantial scope, there would be for delaying the proceedings of such a tribunal and for carrying on with whatever activities are complained of, rightly or wrongly, while the tribunal were reaching their findings.
The noble Lord, Lord O'Neill of the Maine, and also, earlier, the noble Lord, Lord Caccia, stressed the importance of the insurance industry for our invisible earnings, and in this I entirely echo what was said. I should like now to say a few words about what is emerging as the central worry of most noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, and that revolves around the "fit and proper persons" provisions and was introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Stow Hill, in relation to Clause 32. I listened with interest and with enjoyment to his remarks on this subject and I should like to study them carefully. I was also grateful for the precedent which he gave us concerning admission to the Bar.
I should also like to say a word about how we stand on the question of authorisations and change of control. With authorisations for companies seeking to enter de novo into this business there is no major change in prospect from the 1967 régime. We have two small changes: the first is introduced by the new definition in Clause 2 of controllers and managers—that is, persons in respect of whom the "fit and proper person" provisions criteria are applied. The second—and this was a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, a moment ago—is the necessary lapsing of the provision that special supervision will last only for five years after authorisation. It lapses necessarily because we move into an area where there is a new system of control and where the new control, which is a

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continuing control, will apply in place of this special provision that new companies should be supervised in a special way for five years. When we come to changes of control—the Clause 32 question—the provision for prior approval of persons proposing to become controllers is a new one, which comes in in place of a restrictive action which it was only possible to apply after the event had taken place, which I think the House will generally agree must be an unsatisfactory situation.
The next difference is that a manager, and in appropriate cases also a controller, should have the right (Clause 22(1)) to be heard before the company is made aware of a possible complaint against him, which I think is a new and substantial safeguard against a situation which might leave a slur on his character if it were not satisfactorily cleared up in the course of a discussion. So there we have moved a step towards meeting this worry, rather than the contrary. Previously, the reason had to be given to the company but not as of right to the individual, although customarily it was generally given to the individual. As the Bill proposes, it will now be necessary to give particulars of the matter concerned in these cases.
This brings me to the question of appeal, and I should like to study in detail what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Stow Hill, said in this connection. I think we all acknowledge the great difficulty of this area, and indeed I stress it myself. I can recall recent cases where the new associates of a person intending to enter into the insurance industry were quite unaware of his unsatisfactory past record. So there is a real point in these provisions. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Stow Hill, then referred to the impregnable position of the Department or the Minister when they merely sat tight and said, "We are not going to tell you any reason why we object to you". I would just point out that there is always the right of appeal to the Parliamentary Commissioner (Administration) in cases where it is felt that a substantial denial of justice may exist. I would also point out that the public expects the Department, as the supervising authority, to have perfect judgment—perfect judgment, due to the advantage of hindsight. We do not like sitting on a horn—and this is a
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dilemma; one cannot avoid it, but I think we have become somewhat hardened in a certain part of our anatomy since 1967. This subject was very well explored in the debates that took place in 1966 and 1967 and I anticipate that we shall go over much of that ground, and by all means let us explore it.
The noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, made one other point with which I should like strongly to agree, which is the necessity for speed of action when this can be seen to be the necessary means of protecting the interests of policy holders. This, of course, is what a substantial part of this Bill is all about. I agree also with the noble Lord that the Bill is in no sense an indictment of the past performance of the industry at large. Indeed, it has had the general welcome which has been referred to by several noble Lords. I think the Bill will encourage the healthy development of the industry. I have already referred to two points made by the noble Lord, Lord Hawke. I should like now to refer to a third one, which is his reference to the necessity and desirability of competition, which I believe is a strong point. As we stand to-day there are under the supervision of the Department 760 insurance companies from which insurers can choose. In the motor field alone—and this includes Lloyds—there are some 270 motor insurers from whom the motorist can make his selection.
The noble Lord, Lord Jacques, made a number of points to which I have no doubt we shall return; therefore I shall not comment on them all. He started by declaring his interest as a policy holder, and that struck me as interesting, because I doubt whether there is a single noble Lord who would not have that interest as a policy holder. That is just the point: it is a very wide-ranging industry and that is why it needs such special treatment. The noble Lord referred also to the hardships arising from the V. & G. case, and here again this illustrates the reason why we are asking for these new powers. The basic trouble there was that premiums were too low; so, to a degree, of course, what he says is absolutely correct: that we are asking the insurers of the future in some way to pay for the losses of the past. The noble Lord then asked one or two specific questions and I think I can reassure him on at least two of them. The first was about the

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segregation of long-term assets, and here indeed it will be necessary, as soon as these provisions become operative on the time table which is apparent in the Bill, that they shall be separately identified at all times in the records of the company and not merely in annual returns. The noble Lord referred to the question of expenses and we expect to lay regulations which will deal with their proper apportionment on reasonable commercial terms implicit in a proper use of long-term assets.
Then the noble Lord moved to an area which we all acknowledge to be of great difficulty, and I listened with sympathy to what he said, which was in regard to the integrity of funds which represent the interests of long-term policy holders. Nevertheless there are problems in this area. For instance, if the top company is a life company and it has subsidiary companies engaging in general insurance, it may be, as seen from a record extending over decades that the business is conducted in this way entirely properly, without any prejudice to the present or foreseeable interests of policy holders. Nevertheless this sort of situation is hard to disentangle. There are all sorts of legal complications and taxation complications in transferring assets from one company to another which would have to be taken into account. As we stand today, we are seeking wide powers ad hoc. We shall have our quarterly reports when we hear of something going wrong and we shall be able to move in quickly and prevent the making of new investments or loans, as the case may be. But a general prohibition is rather a different matter and there are problems which would have to be discussed. I have no doubt that the noble Lord will have noted that under Clause 3 we have power to bring into effect arrangements to ensure the impossibility of having life business conducted in future in the same company as general business.
LORD JACQUES: My Lords, would the Minister agree that it would be good for investment of life funds in the same company or the same group of companies to be prohibited, except with the consent of the Secretary of State?
THE EARL OF LIMERICK: My Lords, that is a rather difficult point and I should not like to give an off the cuff
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answer. Perhaps it would impose a heavy and unnecessary duty on the Secretary of State. But certainly it is a matter about which I should be happy to think. The noble Lord, Lord Jacques, mentioned two areas in which he thought we had gone too far. One was in respect of Clause 19(1); he is worried about the possible actions of some keen civil servants. I am happy to say that keen civil servants do exist. Experience, however, has shown that if they show too much keenness they upset the recipients of their demands and it is not very long before a complaint comes back to a higher authority and keenness is put back into its proper perspective in this sphere of supervision. The noble Lord also referred to his worries about Clause 11(4). I think I have already dealt with these; this is the question of the five-year limit. I hope that I have answered most of the points that were raised in the debate and certainly those that can be answered at this stage. It only remains for me to thank noble Lords who have taken part, and I shall be looking very closely at what they have said.
On Question, Bill read 2ª, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

SALMON AND MIGRATORY TROUT (NORTH-EAST ATLANTIC) ORDER 1972
6.23 p.m.
EARL FERRERS EARL FERRERS rose to move, That the Salmon and Migratory Trout (North-East Atlantic) Order 1972, be approved. The noble Earl said: My Lords, it may be for the convenience of your Lordships if we discussed at the same time the two following Prohibition Orders which stand in my name. These three Orders replace the existing Salmon and Migratory Trout (Prohibition of Fishing) Order 1971 which expires on February 14, 1973, and it may be helpful if I refer first to the North-East Atlantic Order. This would prohibit fishing for salmon and migratory trout by British fishing vessels in the North-East Atlantic Fisheries Convention area outside British fishery limits. The existing Order was made in the light of the Resolution passed by the North-East Atlantic Fisheries Commission in 1970. The Order now before your Lordships would continue this arrangement for ten

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years. The Government think that this is a reasonable length of time in which to take a view of the working of the conservation arrangements. The period of operation for which it is suggested that this Order should operate coincides with the length of operation of the other two Orders now before the House.
The Prohibition of Fishing Order would also replace arrangements which are embodied in the current Prohibition Order, which expires in the middle of this month. It is designed to prohibit fishing for salmon and migratory trout off the coasts of England and Wales outside our exclusive fishery limits. Such fishing has, under existing arrangements, been controlled in the waters off England and Wales through a licensing system operated by river authorities and the Ministry of Agriculture. No change of substance is proposed under the new Order, but with the agreement of those concerned its effect is that river authorities or their successors will now become solely responsible for the issue of licences to fishermen who wish to catch salmon and migratory trout.
The Ministry of Agriculture has a comparatively small role. It used to be the role of issuing licences for use in the three to twelve-mile belt of our fishery limits. This will now cease and those who are in the best position to decide on the issue of licences—namely, the river authorities or their successors—will undertake the whole task in the nought to six-mile belt of water for which they have responsibility.
The No. 2 Prohibition Order would, as under the arrangements made in the existing Order, continue the prohibition of all fishing for salmon and migratory trout by all fishing boats in British fishery limits off the Scottish coast. Separate Orders are desirable in this instance not only on grounds of simplicity but in case, for example, legislation were to be introduced affecting the position in Scottish waters. The duration of this particular Order is therefore uncertain, although provision is made in it to continue it for ten years, like the other Orders. If a change in the control arrangements off Scotland were to be made, that could of course be done without affecting the other two Orders which I have described. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Salmon and Migratory Trout (North-East Atlantic) Order 1972, be approved.—(Earl Ferrers.)
6.27 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYE: My Lords, before we part with these Orders there is some information which I should like the Government to give the House. First, when, oh! when, is the promised legislation coming? The Minister mentioned it but we have been waiting eleven years for legislation based on the Report of the Hunter Commission. If my noble friend could say that it is coming during this Session of Parliament, many of us would be greatly relieved.
Secondly, I should like information in respect of the Southern part of the Northumbrian River Authority, where what I would call an open-door for drift net fishing has existed and which has done much to nullify the good effects of the drift net prohibition in Scotland. In a debate a year ago the then Minister of State for Scotland, the noble Baroness, Lady Tweedsmuir of Belhelvie, admitted that the number of licences in that particular area had leapt to the enormous figure of 240. It was, however, she said, hoped gradually to reduce the number of licences to 40, which would be a reasonable figure. Indeed, I regret to say that Scotsmen were coming down to Northumberland to get licences from that local authority, so popular was the obtaining of licences there and so comparatively easy was it to get them, and then they were able to drift net in places where drift-netting should not have taken place. Can the Minister say how far the hopes of the then Minister of State have been justified? Is the total down to forty or some similar figure?
The third piece of information I should like is in regard to fishing off Greenland. Will that be reduced as the result of one of these Orders now before us? I welcome these Instruments as one, like many other noble Lords, who is anxious to see this noble fish preserved not only for sport but for food and commercial purposes in the United Kingdom. This is the first breakthrough we have had, thanks to the North-East Atlantic Conference and to Danish resistance to a position which was untenable from their point of view. It is a start. It is not the whole distance; but I am grateful for it, and I know that many others will be

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pleased that these Orders are before your Lordships to-night.
6.30 p.m.
LORD WALSTON: My Lords, I intervene very briefly to welcome these Orders. I do so as somebody who, some 18 months ago, presented a report to the Council of Europe on this subject which, I am glad to say, was accepted there. It is good to know that Her Majesty's Government are taking this very necessary and valuable action. The only point I would stress, which I am sure the noble Earl has very much at heart, is the need to continue watching the situation, particularly in the North Atlantic. What is being done at present is certainly a step in the right direction. It may well be an adequate step; it may be that there is no need to do any more than this. But knowledge so far is insufficient. We have to watch very carefully to make sure that the stocks do not diminish and that the steps which have been taken already by Her Majesty's Government and by other Governments are indeed adequate. If they are not, then we must be prepared to act very quickly. So in welcoming this Order I urge upon Her Majesty's Government the need continually to watch the situation and not to delay if it appears necessary to take any more drastic steps than have been taken at present.
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Balfour of Inchrye and the noble Lord, Lord Walston, for giving these Orders the welcome that they have done because we are all at one in wishing to conserve the salmon stocks and the salmon situation. My noble friend asked, "When will the Hunter Report be put forward in the form of legislation?" I know that that is a matter which greatly concerns him and a number of other people, particularly North of the Border, and I can assure your Lordships that it is the Government's firm intention to introduce a Bill as soon as it can be fitted into the Parliamentary timetable. Whether or not it will be possible to do so in the current Session will depend upon the progress of the business we have in hand. But I can assure my noble friend that it is our intention that this should be done as soon as is possible.
My noble friend referred also to the situation with regard to the drift-netting
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off the North-East coast of England, and he particularly asked for the position with regard to licences given by the Southern part of the Northumbrian River Authority. It is perfectly true that over the last few years, in fact back in 1970 only, there was considerable drift-netting there and the number of licences issued in 1970 was 148. It then went up to 254 and is now down to 91. That figure will revert to 40; but as my noble friend will know, anyone who has had a licence one year has a licence of right to have it another year and it is, therefore, a question only, as it were, of wastage until we get down to the figure of 40. But while on that point, I am sure that my noble friend would be interested to know that the actual number of salmon and grilse caught in 1970 was nearly 31,000 while in 1972 it was down to 6,000.
He referred also, as did the noble Lord, Lord Walston, to the situation with regard to the fishing off Greenland in the high seas. Of course this has been the very great concern of this country for some years, and this particular fishing developed rapidly only over recent years. We are anxious that steps should be taken to safeguard the stocks in this area from over-fishing because there is no doubt that many of the salmon caught there would have returned to our own rivers. Various taggings that were done of salmon show that of 22 fish which were tagged in Greenland, ten were found in the home waters in North America, five in Scotland, four in Ireland, and three in England and Wales, which shows that salmon in that area would, or might, have returned to their home waters.
The only way in which this can be controlled effectively is by international agreement and we are members of the International Commission for the North-West Atlantic Fisheries. That particular body has considerd this matter in its last six meetings. In 1970 agreement was reached upon a resolution under which most countries accepted a complete ban on fishing. But the other countries who could not go quite so far agreed to limit their effort to the 1969 levels. In addition—and I believe that this is an important point—agreement has been reached for the phasing out of fishing for salmon by all non-Greenland vessels by the end of 1975. While I recognise that this does not go as far

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as some people would wish it to go, it is fair to say that the measures which have been taken will go a long way towards safeguarding the stocks, and I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Walston, that we shall watch this point; but, in the end, one can only get it by international agreement. My Lords, I hope that your Lordships approve the first Order which stands in my name.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SALMON AND MIGRATORY TROUT (PROHIBITION OF FISHING) ORDER 1972
6.36 p.m.
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.
Moved, That the Salmon and Migratory Trout (Prohibition of Fishing) Order 1972 be approved.—(Earl Ferrers.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SALMON AND MIGRATORY TROUT (PROHIBITION OF FISHING) (No. 2) ORDER 1972
EARL FERRERS: My Lords, I beg to move.
Moved, That the Salmon and Migratory Trout (Prohibition of Fishing) (No. 2) Order 1972 be approved.—(Earl Ferrers.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE BILL [H.L.]
6.37 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD HAILSHAM OF SAINT MARYLEBONE): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The LORD ALPORT in the Chair.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2 [Stipendiary Magistrates]:
LORD GARDINER LORD GARDINER moved Amendment No. 1:
Page 4, line 4, leave out from ("Wales") to end of line 7 and insert ("shall not in the Inner London area and in the City of London exceed sixty or elsewhere eighteen unless so provided by Order in Council laid before Parliament and approved by both Houses of Parliament.").
The noble and learned Lord said: It is a tribute both to this Bill and to the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor that, although it is an important Bill, there is only one non-Governmental Amendment at the Committee stage of the Bill. We have considered the Government Amendments which are to follow later. They are mostly technical or drafting and we raise no objection to them or any objection to however fast the noble and learned Lord likes to dispose of them.
The subject matter of the Amendment I am moving raises a question of some importance which I mentioned at the Second Reading of the Bill. It relates to our system of criminal justice which is unique in the world in that 98 per cent. of all criminal cases are decided by laymen. There is no other country in the world, I believe, in which that is the case, and indeed there is no country where, with them and juries, lay citizens play so large a part in the administration of justice. My Amendment is designed to prevent this system from being radically changed without the authority of Parliament.
The present position is this. In London, where the work is very heavy indeed, including long cases which are going to trial and a multiplicity of small traffic offences, there have to be a number of stipendiary magistrates. These are limited by Statute to 40 and there are at present 39 in post. Outside London, the position is that stipendiaries can be appointed only on the application of the local authority and at the moment there are only 11. The Bill proposes that instead of their being appointed only on the application of a local authority, the Lord Chancellor should be able to appoint as many stipendiaries throughout England as he likes, and that there should also be no limit whatever to the number of stipendiary magistrates in London. It would thus be possible—not, of course,

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immediately but at a future date—to change the whole of the system without the authority of Parliament.
The answer made by the noble and learned Lord to this unusual and drastic proposal was, first, that he was just as much an enthusiast about the justices of the peace as I am; that he had no intention of appointing more than one or two outside London, or as might be necessary in London, and that if he wanted to he could not because there would not be enough lawyers to be appointed. I fully accept all that. But it is the way of Government Departments to take wider powers than they necessarily need, and this is a question which is essentially a matter of opinion. I think all those who have addressed public meetings of one kind and another where questions are put relating to the administration of justice know that one question you are always asked is: "Would it not be better, instead of having all these lay justices, to have stipendiaries?". That is something on which different views may be held. If a Lord Chancellor in the future persuaded his colleagues that that was desirable, it is a change which, if the Bill is passed into law in its present form, he could very easily make.
One stipendiary is about equal to 50 justices of the peace. This is because he sits daily; the justices sit on average once a fortnight and there have to be two or three justices sitting together. There are about 1,000 courts sitting daily, 950 presided over by justices and about 50 by stipendiaries. Therefore, if a Lord Chancellor wanted radically to alter the system, and persuaded his colleagues to accept his view, he could very easily do so, because every year about 1,500 justices retire and 1,500 others have to be appointed; so by appointing stipendiaries and omitting to appoint further justices of the peace the change could very easily be made.
What, therefore, this Amendment seeks to do is to place a limit on the number of stipendiaries who can be appointed without coming to Parliament. It is proposed that in London that number should he an increase of rather more than 50 per cent. As I have said, there are 39 in post and the Amendment proposes that there should be a maximum of 60; and
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that outside London, where there are 11, there should also be an increase of rather more than 50 per cent. These figures, I hope, are reasonable. At the Second Reading the noble and learned Lord also made the point that once you have a statutory limit difficulties can arise, because then you have to pass an Act of Parliament to get the statutory limit altered. Therefore, in the Amendment which I have put down—though I do not suppose for a moment it is properly worded—I have sought to provide that if at any time it is thought that the numbers are insufficient, instead of coming to Parliament with a Bill it would only be necessary for the Government to come to the House with a Statutory Instrument for an increase, provided it was approved by both Houses of Parliament.
On the Second Reading of the Bill, the noble and learned Lord was good enough to say:
"…this is not the kind of Bill about which I have any inhibitions. I should be delighted to have suggested Amendments on this subject. If the noble and learned Lord, Lord Gardiner, desires me to curb the powers which I am proposing, I am sure he will do so kindly and I will certainly look at any Amendment he or anybody else puts down; and in the meantime I will contemplate the possibility of proposing a Government Amendment, without undertaking to do so. At any rate, this is not something about which I feel any kind of false pride and I should be delighted to have any suggestions for improvement either now or at any other time."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 29/1/73. col. 426.]
So I am not unhopeful that the noble and learned Lord will favourably consider the Amendment.
In a sense, if I may say so, for one who is as logical as he is, I think he is in a slight logical dilemma, because, of course, the more he says, "But I have no intention of doing anything of the kind; I may want a few more in London; I might want to appoint a couple of extra ones in the Provinces, but I am certainly not going to do this", the less reason there is for his opposing the provision that there should be a point beyond which future Lord Chancellors cannot go without the authority of Parliament. He has also said, of course, that he would have to get the agreement of the Treasury, but if a future Lord Chancellor persuades his colleagues to adopt this policy it would follow that lie would also get the approval of the Treasury. I beg to move.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD HAILSHAM OF SAINT MARYLFBONE): The noble and learned Lord has rightly said that he raised this question on Second Reading, and, as I promised on Second Reading, I went straight back and took advice about both the principle and the practice of this. I received very strong advice against a statutory limit, both on principle and in practice, and I should like the noble and learned Lord to consider some of the things which were said to me, as I think on the whole they are persuasive.
The noble and learned Lord referred to the Bill as drafted in Clause 2 as an unusual and drastic proposal. I think for once he was overstating his case. When he left me the valuable legacy of the Courts Bill, which is now in the form in which I approved it—it was not identical, but I think for this purpose is very nearly the same—I found a proposal that I should have an unlimited power, exactly as drafted here, to appoint circuit judges under the new Courts Act. Indeed, I have had that power and I have had to appoint, I think, more circuit judges than Lord Chancellors have ever appointed county court judges or chairmen of quarter sessions in the history of the sport. A circuit judge is a very highly paid official, I think far more highly paid than a stipendiary, and I am allowed to appoint as many as I like simply after consulting the Civil Service and without getting express approval of Parliament. Of course, I have to persuade the Civil Service Department and I have to persuade the Treasury, which is really a effective bar to my appointing too many.
I do not know what I would do if I had to ask for Parliament's approval every time I wanted to raise the maximum, and I must say that if I chose to be the kind of Lord Chancellor that the noble and learned Lord is postulating some Lord Chancellor might be in the future, I could put all those circuit judges on the Commission of the Peace, and as they would be receiving a permanent salary they would do a great deal of work for nothing. So in effect I could outwit the wishes of Parliament, if they were as embodied in the noble and learned Lord's Amendment. The fact is, of course, that what the noble and learned Lord has done is to swallow a camel himself
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fand then five years later ask me to strain at a gnat, because this is very much less than he left behind to me. I suggest that the danger which he postulates is wholly fanciful. I was not just saying it for the sake of saying it. I think that there has been no more vocal, articulate, and sincere apostle of the lay magistracy than I, and I certainly have not the intention of using the power to any appreciable extent.
But my experience—and I suspect the noble and learned Lord's experience—has been that every time you put a statutory limit on anything which is as rapidly increasing as crime is at the moment, sooner or later you find that you are up against the Statute. I appreciate that he has provided in his Amendment that there should be an Order in Council and not an amending Act if the statutory limit is to be raised. But I really would ask the Committee to consider this aspect, that almost every week we are adding to the burden on Parliament by providing for the Affirmative Resolution procedure, so that every time you want to do anything you have to add to the burden of both Houses by a separate debate on the subject. I should have thought that this is a burden that we could, on the whole, afford to do without, and not lay it upon our successors, and this is the advice which I have received.
Now may I turn from the general to the particular. I would ask the noble and learned Lord to consider this: as I have said I have absolutely no intention of altering the system in the Provinces or for that matter in London. In London, during my lifetime at the Bar, the system has moved in favour of the lay magistracy and not against it. When I first went to the Bar, apart from licensing and juvenile courts (or whatever they were then called), all the London work was done by stipendiaries. It is now very largely done by lay magistrates—I think to the infinite advantage of the public, and also the taxpayer. I have now 39 London stipendiaries in post, and I have a maximum limit of 40, so I am right up against the limit.
I should like to take this opportunity of explaining what I am doing. I have been using them more and more as deputy judges in the Crown Court, and sometimes appointing them to the Crown Court. The reason for that is partly because they are

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so good at it and partly because there was a time, not very long ago, when a stipendiary magistracy was considered to be a dead end. I do not want it to be considered a dead end; I want the stipendiaries to be able to think of themselves as potential judges of the Crown Court if their work is successful, so that they do not get into the stale feeling that sometimes a man does if he has reached the end of his career at a comparatively early age. I am sure that this has been a good plan.
So far as the figure 60 is concerned, I should have thought that probably would have met my needs, or the needs of my successors, for quite a considerable period of time. But just look at where you are getting; what the noble and learned Lord proposes is that there should be 60 for the metropolitan area alone to be appointed without going to Parliament, and only 18 for the whole of the rest of England and Wales. We know that there are historical reasons why there are a lot of stipendiaries in the Metropolis and practically none anywhere else. It may be that that situation can continue indefinitely; I do not know. It seems to me, however that there is no logic about this kind of arrangement though as I say I see absolutely no reason why I should alter the balance at the moment. This is because as I chose to say outdoors last week—and I shall be saying again when we come to a debate next week about the Criminal Law Revision Committee—my chief preoccupation at the moment is not to impose a number of unwanted judges on a lot of eager and efficient lay magistrates; my chief preoccupation is to find lawyers of adequate calibre to undertake the posts that I have got available. I think that I have made more than 100 appointments to the Crown Court in one way or another and certainly approaching 200 part-time recorders.
The effect of what I have done in the last three years is to diminish the practising Bar at the top by something like 10 per cent. of its total numbers in whole-time appointments, and possibly another 10 per cent. in part-time appointments. I have really imposed a great burden upon the profession, and the danger is not that I shall be making too many but that I shall not find enough to make. I say frankly that I do not see any radical
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difference in principle now between the great urban areas in the Provinces and the Metropolis, although, as I say, I have no intention of altering the balance as regards the figure of 18 for the Provinces which is, I should have thought, spectacularly low as compared with the proposal of 60 for the Metropolis.
I must tell the Committee that there were 18 provincial stipendiary magistrates 20 years ago. It is true, as the noble and learned Lord has rightly said, that there are now only 11; but the reason for there being only 11 now is the reason I gave on Second Reading; namely, that provincial cities have been extremely reluctant to petition the Lord Chancellor, or the Crown, for the appointment of a stipendiary, and very often have not done so when a stipendiary would have been extremely useful. The reason for this is very largely because they did not want to pay a salary which was determined as to its size by the central Government. We are, by this Bill, undertaking to pay the salary, and I should have thought that it was a reasonable piece of judicial administration to determine whether or not a stipendiary post, that we shall pay for, is required.
The other reason why the Provinces are rather slow to petition is that sometimes local benches of magistrates have, I think rather fanciful, fears that one is trying to supersede them in their work, which is far from the truth. It is true, as the noble and learned Lord said, that I said on Second Reading (and it is the case) that my present intention is to appoint one or two, which is well within his proposed maximum. Therefore, in practice, I do not suppose that I should be much constricted. However, I should expect to find at some future date that we might get back to 18, which was, after all, the figure of 20 years ago when the work was much less onerous and far less in volume. They are extremely valuable characters to have in the Provinces. It is for this reason that I intend, as I said on Second Reading, to extend their jurisdiction from the boroughs, where alone they are now allowed to operate, to the whole of the new counties. There are cases which are better taken by a professional, and to have them there is a convenience. It may have special value in Wales too, for rather a different reason, which I will not enter into at the moment.

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The noble and learned Lord can rest assured that I am not receding from what I said on Second Reading. I do not regard this as a slur on myself or any future Lord Chancellor; but the advice that I have is that this Amendment is not right, and I wonder whether the noble and learned Lord wishes to press it in the light of this expression of opinion, which I believe is the best view that can be formed.
6.59 p.m.
LORD GARDINER: This is not a particularly crowded Committee. May I say first that I made it plain on Second Reading of the Bill that, in so far as the Bill provides that in future stipendiaries can be appointed by the Lord Chancellor otherwise than on a petition by the local authority, I entirely agree with him. It is in accordance with the spirit of the Report of the Royal Commission on Assizes and Quarter Sessions and of the Courts Act. So far as Circuit judges are concerned, I have no objection to however many are appointed. It does not really affect at all the justices of the peace.
The noble and learned Lord said that my fears were wholly fanciful. I can only assure him that, after making careful inquiries, the justices of the country as a whole are very concerned indeed about the Bill on this point. The Magistrates' Association is always in a little difficulty, because the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor is their President. But I can assure him that I know there is very great concern indeed among the justices. Under my proposals, any Lord Chancellor would be entitled to appoint an additional 28 stipendiaries; that is the equivalent of 1,400 justices less. All I am saying is simply this: that I do not think we ought to go further than that towards replacing justices by stipendiaries without coming to Parliament—not necessarily in a Bill; I appreciate that that can be a nuisance and I have provided against that by enabling the point of further increases to be brought forward in a Statutory Instrument.
I shall of course carefully consider what the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor has said. It may be that we can consult together and consider what sort of figures would be acceptable to him, because my sole desire (and I accept
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everything he has said throughout about his own personal view about the justices, which I know is the same as mine) is to prevent some future Lord Chancellor who, perfectly bona fide on a question which is a matter of opinion, might consider it would be a very good thing if we replaced the justices by stipendiaries, from being able to do so—as he would be able to do if this Bill passed in its present form—without further reference to Parliament. Meanwhile, and before the Report stage of the Bill, I will of course consider most carefully everything which the noble and learned Lord has said.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord. Of course I shall be only too glad to consult with him, as I always am.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Clauses 3 to 7 agreed to.
Clause 8 [Judicial salaries]:
7.2 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 2:
Page 7, line 16, leave out ("ordinary").
The noble and learned Lord said: Perhaps I may discuss Amendments Nos. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16 and 18 together. They all relate to the omission of the word "ordinary". There is a technical reason for this Amendment: it is to repair a mistake of construction which occurred in my Office. It makes no difference to the substance of the Bill and, unless I am pressed, I do not particularly want to go into the detail, which is quite intricate. So I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: With the consent of the Committee, may I take Amendments Nos. 3, 4, 5 and 6 together? They are all the same. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 7, line 17, at end insert ("other than the Lord Chancellor").
Page 8, line 3, leave out subsection (6).—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 9 agreed to.
Clause 10 [Retirement of higher judiciary in event of incapacity]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I beg to move Amendments Nos. 5 and 6.
Amendments moved—
Page 8, line 19, leave out ("ordinary").
Page 9, line 12, leave out subsection (5).—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 11 and 12 agreed to.
Clause 13 [Appointment of deputy district registrars of High Court and deputy county court registrars]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 7:
Page 10, line 21, at end insert—
("(3A) Section 29(1) of the County Courts Act 1959 (which provides that no officer of a county court shall, either by himself or his partner be directly or indirectly engaged as solicitor or agent for any party in any proceedings in that court) shall not apply to a deputy county court registrar appointed under this section; but a deputy district registrar or deputy county court registrar so appointed shall not act as such in relation to any proceedings in which he is, either by himself or his partner directly or indirectly engaged as a solicitor or agent for any party.")
The noble and learned Lord said: This is another purely technical Amendment. It is to restore what is, in effect, subsection (6) of Section 11 of the Administration of Justice Act 1956, which this Bill would repeal. As it stands, and without the Amendment, Clause 13 of this Bill contains nothing to prevent a deputy district registrar acting as such in a matter in which he or his partners may be professionally engaged. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 43, after ("subsections") insert ("(3A)").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 14 agreed to.
Clause 15 [Commencement and transitional]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This Amendment corrects a misprint to which
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I referred in my Second Reading speech. The year "1974" should be read, instead of "1973" as in the print. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 6, leave out ("1973") and insert ("1974").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 16 agreed to.
Schedule 1 [Justices of the peace (consequential re-enactments and amendments)]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This Amendment corrects a faulty reference. Paragraph 12 in Part IV of Schedule 1 refers to an Amendment made by Section 58 of the Criminal Justice Act 1972 to Section 27 of the Justices of the Peace Act 1949. The Amendment was in fact made by Section 61 of the 1972 Act, and this is put right by the Amendment which I now propose. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 13, leave out ("58") and insert ("61").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 2 agreed to.
Schedule 3 [Pensions of higher judiciary]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Amendments Nos. 11 and 12 cover the same point about the word "ordinary" which we dealt with earlier. Amendment No. 13 will be slightly different. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 20, line 35, leave out ("ordinary").
Page 20, line 36, after ("Wales") insert ("other than the Lord Chancellor").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 13:
Page 21, line 26, leave out ("as Lord Chancellor").
The noble and learned Lord said: This Amendment and Amendment No. 17 on line 32 are both drafting Amendments. The words to be left out make no difference to the sense of paragraph 3 of Schedule 3 (which defines the relevant

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service for the purpose of calculating the pensions of the Higher Judiciary) because the Lord Chancellor is, by virtue of Section 2(1) of the Supreme Court of Judicature (Consolidation) Act 1925, a Judge of the High Court, which is part of the Supreme Court, and he is covered by the references in the paragraph to a Judge of the Supreme Court. The Amendments are therefore consequential on the removal of the definition of the words "ordinary judge" from paragraph 4 of Schedule 3. With that explanation, I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: If I may deal with Amendments Nos. 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 together, they are all concerned with points I have already explained. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 21, line 27, leave out ("ordinary")
Page 21, line 30, leave out ("an ordinary") and insert ("a")
Page 21, line 31, leave out ("an ordinary") and insert ("a")
Page 21, line 32, leave out ("as Lord Chancellor")
Page 21, line 37, leave out paragraph 4.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Schedule 3, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule 4 [Repeals]:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This Amendment and the next one, No. 20. correct another faulty reference. There is no paragraph 20(8) in Schedule 2 to the Administration of Justice Act 1964, but there is a sub-paragraph (8) in paragraph 20 of Schedule 3 to that Act, and this is the sub-paragraph which should be repealed. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 26, leave out line 23.
Page 26, line 26, at end insert ("and (8)").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved Amendment No. 21:
Page 28, line 30, leave out ("subsections (4), (5) and") and insert ("subsection (4), in subsection (5) the words "and provisional district registrar", subsection").
The noble and learned Lord said: This is a drafting Amendment to make
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good a mistake in the drafting of the Bill. Section 84(5) of the Supreme Court of Judicature (Consolidation) Act 1925 provides as follows:
"The power to make appointments to the office of district registrar and provisional district registrar shall be vested in the Lord Chancellor".
The repeal Schedule to the Bill, which is the Schedule we are now discussing, Part VI, inadvertently repeals the whole of this subsection, thus removing the Lord Chancellor's power to appoint district registrars. The Amendment puts this right by limiting the repeal to the reference to provisional district registrars, this office being abolished by Clause 13 of the Bill, which provides for the appointment of deputy district registrars by the Lord Chancellor. I beg to move.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This Amendment concerns additional repeals which are consequential on the Amendments to Clause 13, Nos. 7 and 8. which we have already passed. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 28, line 40, at end insert—

("In section 29, the subsection (1A) inserted by the Administration of Justice Act 1970.

1970c. 31.

The Administration of Justice Act 1970.

Section 46.")

—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Schedule 4, as amended, agreed to.
House resumed: Bill reported with Amendments.

BANKRUPTCY LAW
7.15 p.m.
LORD HALE LORD HALE rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied with the practice and procedure of the existing law of bankruptcy and with its equity to debtors. The noble Lord said: My Lords, it is 56 years since I entered the office of the Official Receiver in Bankruptcy at Leicester and found myself becoming acquainted with a procedure which had been enacted in 1914, though substantially based on Acts passed many years before. Fifty-six years ago, of course,

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was a time when the roses were not blooming in Picardy, nor the poppies growing in Flanders. Best blood, having run, was then manuring the plain. In Leicester, business was as usual, and there was very little bankruptcy work about for some time. Customers were rare; but my principal was also a practising solicitor. I hope your Lordships will forgive me if I say very briefly what we did. I recall a single, simple case. One day, while my principals were out, a lady called to say that she felt she ought to go bankrupt, and that her friends had so advised her. I had to tell her that she must deposit £10 as evidence of insolvency, as that was a requirement of the law, rather in the manner of the story about the virgin who applied for admission to the Magdalen Hospital for Fallen Women and was told she had not yet fallen and must go out and come back morally depraved.
Having got the £10, I had to fill in a form setting out this Leicester lady's long history; I had to prepare her statement of affairs, which was minimal, because she had no assets and had borrowed the £10; and I had to prepare a form of adjudication and receiving order, take them round to the county court and have them stamped by an elderly clerk who was almost blind and who used to say, "Is this in order?" and, in response to the reply "Yes", stamp something twice and send out the notice to the Press. By that time, much of the procedure was over. There remained only the public examination before the registrar on a day fixed, which would almost inevitably be formal until some information came in. I waited for the congratulations of my principals on this evidence of industry, but they came back and said, "You have not put in the lady's occupation."I said," She hasn't got an occupation", and they said, "Then she cannot possibly be made bankrupt; a married woman can be made bankrupt only if she is in a trade or business." I said, "You should have told me that before, but this matter is now res judicata, the matter is published, she is adjudicated and there is a receiving Order"; and, with that tact which always gets us out of our legal troubles, the public examination did not raise the question of the lady's occupation and she still remains one of those examples to which the noble and learned Lord so felicitously
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referred in his brilliant judgment on Monday as one of those unexpected events which shape the history of the law.
My Lords, some six years later I left to buy a brass plate and was not directly concerned with bankruptcy law for a long time, though from time to time one had ample evidence of its difficulty. But one of the problems when I was in the bankruptcy office was that, as the years went by, particularly in the case of country bankruptcies and we gathered less and less to share, there was a flood of anonymous letters making allegations against the conduct of the bankrupt. For example, "There was an old Rolls-Royce car that he used to park in the tithe barn"; and if we looked in the tithe barn we would find this—in those days—not very sub-stantial asset. Or, "There was a lady who visited him and stopped all night and was seen to be wearing jewels". Those letters arrived in quantities.
I have often argued that one should not act on anonymous information, but my police constable friends tell me that a "tip off" is better than Lord Peter Wimsey; and that if it is not acted upon a great deal of very useful information would be rejected. We did not try to look into these things; but if the vicar had the car in the tithe barn, the vicar's name appeared in the Press. He was asked to explain it; and he did. With luck, he could make a statement to the Press and get away with a headline saying, "Vicar denies allegations"—never the most happy form of exculpation. No doubt he was interviewed by his Bishop and told that Christian charity has limits and should be exercised with discretion.
I do not propose to mention the other things that happened. But it was the law. The official receiver or, in case of assets, the trustee appointed by the creditors acting on the instructions of a committee of inspection appointed by them, should in open court question the bankrupt very fully about his assets, his liabilities and his recent financial history and connections. There were complaints, and the people complaining were told, "Write to your M.P.!" Some, no doubt, got a letter from their M.P. saying that he would take the matter into consideration next time the bankruptcy law was revised; but apart from some Amendments in 1926 it never has been revised.

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There are two things about this procedure. First, it seemed really hopelessly supererogatory in tiny cases. It was far too elaborate for the minor case. Secondly, the whole organisation was quite inadequate to deal with the rare and large case which presented major problems of investigation; nor had anyone the resources to pursue it to the end.
There was a period when I acted for a gentleman who exemplifies the problems of bankruptcy law. His name was a household word. I am disclosing nothing that is not known. I have not troubled to check the facts; indeed, the Dictionary of National Biography does not record his existence. But in his day his name was very well known and on his first bankruptcy, which was for something in the neighbourhood of five figures, he was made to dispose of an immense hall in Cambridge and the yacht he had bought from the Prince of Wales; and St. Paul's Cathedral returned for the benefit of the creditors the gold plate which he had presented to them.
On his second bankruptcy, which I think was for six figures, there was no possibility of this because, under the law, the unsatisfied creditors in the first bankruptcy still took priority. On his third bankruptcy which, if I recollect—and I hope I am not deceiving the House—ran into seven figures, there was really nothing for the creditors to do. He was never prosecuted, so far as I know, for a bankruptcy offence. If he was, he was acquitted, though he did spend two periods as a guest of Her Majesty, one of nine months over the Tsar of Russia's diamond mines and one of three years over the Jubilee Cotton Mills. From then on, his bankruptcies made him absolutely writ-proof. To make him bankrupt a fourth time was useless. He used his career as a method of selling shares. He would say, "Do not trust me. You know all about me. Everybody knows about my record". He was an engaging character. He was far too clever to follow once he got on figures. He lived throughout his three bankruptcies at a modestly stately hall in Derbyshire which he had the foresight to settle on his very charming wife before his financial career which, once very promising, came to ruin.
That is the system. I became, to my great advantage personally, a member
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of the Payne Committee on the Enforcement of Debt, having acted more recently for another gentleman who had a judgment against him for £800,000 in this House for tax and who was being sued for £3 million damages for criminal conspiracy with about sixty others and whose operations I followed throughout Australia. I shall not have time to do justice tonight to my distinguished colleagues on that Committee. Their labours were immense, their courtesy wonderful. The amount of work done by the chairman, Mr. Justice Payne; the amount of patience he displayed, the amount of tolerance and kindness was infinite. This was a period of illness for me and I could not take much part, for so many knew much more about it. The joy of the conversation and the legal polemics was such that I sat and looked around sometimes expecting either Sam Johns or Ben Jonson to arrive from the club or from the Mermaid Tavern. Everyone should read that Report. I beg them to read it. There are 453 pages of close print, a quarter of a million words. They will see what was said.
My problem was that we were in theory abolishing imprisonment for debt; but we did that at Oldham years ago by sheer good sense. No one went to prison from the county court in Oldham for years and years. We were applying once more to the small debtor a system which was pretty harsh. We were applying the attachment of earnings, of future earnings, in payment of debts. How can a Socialist sign such a document?—when the man who owes £10,000 can go into court, give an interview to the Press and say, "Of course, this will not affect my earning capacity. I can make £15,000 a week any time. I am just popping in to clear up my past and to get a new start in life." There is a great deal to be said for a new start. I do not object to it provided it is open to all. The law should be open to all.
I am detaining the House; but your Lordships will have become aware that at this moment the bankruptcy laws are attracting increasing attention and most of the newspapers have been indulging in polemics about some aspects of this law. It may be that the time is ripe for reform. Noble Lords on the Government Front Bench have said that they want to do something about the Payne proposals

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—but not this year. I thought that "not this year" gave at least hope of next year.
I want to say only one word or two about the proceedings now on. I want to say them with restraint; but I passionately want to say them. I think they ought to be said. I do not know Mr. Muir Hunter. I know that he is the editor of the standard work on bankruptcy which is regarded as a brilliant work and is very dull reading. I know he is esteemed by some of his contemporaries. I desire to dissociate myself wholly and entirely from the ill-informed criticism which has been made about a man who is performing his duty as counsel to trustees whose job is to get money for the creditors; who is getting money for the creditors. I am not sure whether money should be accepted on a promise of anonymity, but that is a matter for the court and not for counsel who is handling information which is coming along the conveyor belt and having to deal with it almost as it arrives.
My Lords, I have trespassed on the indulgence of the House quite a bit now. I am hoping that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack will permit me to correct one thing, and I come to the question of the Bar Council and what was said to-day and which is really irrelevant to this Question. There was some discussion about the Bar Council report on Wednesday. I was immediately informed that the Bar Council have sent copies of their report, not to all 1,150 Peers, which might be expensive, but to a list selected without consideration of Party or rank; to every one of the Peers who had shown an interest in legal matters, and that one had been sent to me. I have said that to the best of my humble belief it has not arrived but they have promised that if that is so another one will be sent. I had hoped that I might correct that.
I wonder whether it is presumptous of me to add a word about the astonishing announcement about Mr. Muir Hunter. It seems to me that it would be presumptous for me to say anything, but perhaps it would be a little cowardly to refrain at the stage I have reached. Perhaps I may say that when I heard the news on the radio I did not believe it. When it was reported to me I said that I did not believe it. When I heard it I said that the B.B.C. had got it wrong. I do not
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recall any precedent for this action, but of course—I do not know—I must assume that they have information about which I do not know. Nowadays I never express myself in very strong terms, but if there is one thing in which I passionately believe it is the freedom of the advocate, and I believe that the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack would be the first to echo that sentiment.
My Lords, we demand that our judges should be entirely independent of the Legislature, and we shall go on insisting on that. And the only curb upon the judges is of course the freedom of the advocate. I reflected that night that if the Bar Council had acted 200 years ago as they appear to have acted that night, then Erskine would have been cut short in the opening speech of his career, at the moment when he said, "Whether Lord Sandwich is before the court or not, I will bring him before the court." And it would have been a bad thing for England—though perhaps the Woolsack would not have suffered much—if that advocate's first 20 years at the Bar had not been lived. There was more tolerance in those days. As the Lord Chancellor knows, one advocate attacked his Scottish colleagues at the Bar with a ferocity, we are told, that had never been equalled; and then departed in a hired cab, which his enemies said had been already hired for the purpose, on his way to London and to the Woolsack.
I am grateful for the tolerance I have had and I have strayed a little beyond the bounds which I ought to have set myself, but I want to conclude with this. I did, my Lords, put the point I have been humbly trying to make—and not doing so very clearly—in the form of a Minority Report. I apologise to my old colleagues for quoting myself and not their much more important utterances. We did, of course, have to examine the whole law of bankruptcy in those proceedings. Every analogy had to be taken from the law of bankruptcy; all the questions of priority had to be considered, and I wrote a Report of which I will read only a little as quickly as I can:
"The result of the exclusion is that it has not been possible to consider the anomolies or the injustice which the continued operation of the two-tier system must inevitably produce nor would it be permissible for me to pursue, in detail, subjects on which evidence has not been formally taken."

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That was because the main subject was outside our terms of reference. But I said:
"The position now, therefore, remains and will remain if the Report be implemented, that any civil debtor to whom the Report applies may be forced into bankruptcy at the option of any one substantial creditor; and that any debtor who possesses at one and the same time the sum of £10 and a disposition not to pay his debts, can opt out of the new system and seek refuge in the safer harbour of bankruptcies…"—
and that in fact there was evidence that that was being done.
I said that two of my colleagues had made reservations in which they too made reference to the importance of considering the law of bankruptcy, and then I concluded in a paragraph, after recommending of course that the existing system of the Official Receiver, with all its deficiencies, with all its inadequacies, might well be combined with the enforcement system so as to make a single equitable system applying fairly to every debtor:
"I venture therefore to conclude, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, that the maintenance of a dual system is contrary to justice, morally wrong and that its existence would impair the working of the new system. Wholly unwilling to embark upon economic seas I can only humbly suggest that some economists might opine that two systems operating different rules in adjacent and, indeed, overlapping areas would needlessly increase public expenditure to the public disadvantage."
My Lords, in conclusion, may I say, at Stephen Leacock said, that one thing that was missing out of the biographies of successful men was the point between when they struck the town without a "bob" in their pocket and the time when they had £2,000 in their pocket to buy somebody's company and expand it into £100,000. It was how they got the first bit of money. Now we know how it is done. You borrow £49 from a friend and allot yourself 51 shares as fully paid in return for your services. You embark upon a career of debt. You fail and go "bust". You find another friend with £49 and, with any luck, by the fifth small company you may strike lucky and become a millionaire and an ornament of mercantile society.
We have always failed to deal with that aspect in bankruptcy affairs. We find delay after delay which usually
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finishes with a long fraud investigation and the delinquent insolvent in the I3ahamas. Therefore I beg the Government and their advisers when they consider the reform and the implementation of the Report of the Payne Committee; when they consider the objections to two systems, and the objections to the lack of equity, that they should try to present a comprehensive system with a full-time headquarters, capable of handling the massive tasks which may fall upon them; and a system which might draw much from the present French law in its essence of a differential bankruptcy which I will not elaborate now. My Lords, I apologise for taking up time at this hour of night. I had intended to try to be brief, and I am very grateful for the courtsey I have received from those who have so kindly listened to me.
7.39 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, if no other noble Lord wishes to address the House. I shall reply to Lord Hale's Unstarred Question. I am sure that the House is greatly indebted to the noble Lord and also has been greatly diverted by some of his reminiscences. The subject of bankruptcy law, which is an intricate and highly technical one, has become, in the last few months, a popular subject for discussion for the first time in my professional career which, though perhaps not so long as the noble Lord's, at least goes back to 1932. The noble Lord's question was to ask the Government
"whether they are satisfied with the practice and procedure of the existing law of bankruptcy and its equity to debtors".
It was not possible for me, with the best will in the world, exactly to divine the scope of the inquiry which the noble Lord was seeking to make of the Government.
I was afraid at one point that the noble Lord might be going to comment upon the implications of the Poulson case or a recent exchange of Questions and Answers in another place between the Attorney General and two Members of Parliament and the rather intemperate comments which have been made in some quarters about those exchanges. Except tangentially in his references to one of the counsel engaged in the case, I do not think he has done so. But his tangential reference perhaps allows me to

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say that had he gone further into the matter I should have had to say to him, and I must say to the House, that there are four separate sets of inquiries proceeding at the moment about that case which render it particularly inappropriate either for the Law Officers or for the Lord Chancellor to make any comment about it. There is the public examination of the debtor himself. There are the police inquiries into the matters emerging as the result of the case which may or may not result in criminal proceedings of one sort or another. There are the Civil Service inquiries into the public servants involved and there is the Bar Council inquiry into the professional conduct of one of the counsel engaged in the case to which the noble Lord referred. So that if I were asked, or any of my colleagues were asked, to make any comment remotely relevant to the Poulson affair, I should have to say that we really must wait until the results of, at any rate, some of these inquiries are known before beginning to adopt attitudes or draw inferences.
The noble Lord has referred much more generally to the law and practice of bankruptcy, and he has really had to leave me to answer the Question by giving the state of play at the moment as I sec it at the moment in relation to the general law. As he told the House, the law and practice of bankruptcy was last reformed on a general scale in 1914 when the principal Act was enacted. This Act and the amending Act of 1926, together with the Bankruptcy Rules, still dominate the scene. In 1955 a further Committee was set up under the late Judge Blagden and that Committee reported in May, 1957. That report was to the effect that,
"the basic structure of the Bankruptcy Law apart from that relating to discharge is generally sound and well suited to its purpose."
That has remained the view of successive Governments ever since. The Blagden Committee went on to suggest a number of amendments, designed as they put it,
"to remove as far as possible administrative difficulties and inequalities some of which have been inherent in a system of law which has to serve a twofold purpose: on the one hand protecting the bankrupt from anything in the nature of persecution by his creditors, and on the other protecting creditors from the dishonest or fraudulent financial dealings of their debtor."
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There the matter rested, because the amendments were relatively small; and although they accepted the general thesis successive Governments from that day to this have never found Parliamentary time to enact the minor amendments.
Dealing next with the Government structure, the Department of Trade and Industry is responsible for amending the bankruptcy law, as was its predecessor the Board of Trade. The recommendations of the Blagden Report have not so far been enacted and I must add that no legislation is contemplated this Session. There have been small changes since 1957 and the House will recall that last year in the Criminal Justice Act 1972, which we have just passed, we introduced the new concept of criminal bankruptcy which will involve the Department in a considerable volume of new arrangements and new work. In addition to that, the Department of Trade and Industry is at present considering bankruptcy law as a whole since this has been rendered necessary in the light of our entry into the E.E.C., and in particular in the light of the draft Bankruptcy Convention which is at the moment under negotiation between the nine Members. Presumably, any general reform of the law would await the negotiation and discussion of that Convention.
In addition to the substantive law, I am primarily responsible for the bankruptcy rules, although of course I have to consult Departments in the ordinary way. There are under consideration the following proposals which are still under consideration by Departments. These amendments, I frankly confess, have been prompted to some extent by public discussion of the public examination of Mr. Poulson. But so far as I am concerned, none of them involves any judgment whatever upon the merits of that case. I am considering an amendment which would have the effect of requiring the court, when considering an application for the adjournment of a public examination, to have regard to the fact that criminal proceedings either have been or are likely to be brought. I am also considering—but again I emphasise that I make no comment or judgment on recent events—amending the rules so as to underline the courts' powers to exclude all irrelevant or scandalous matter and to order that such matter be excluded from

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the record of proceedings. I am further considering reminding registrars of their powers to refer examinations of exceptional difficulty to the judge, or for hearing in London.
My Lords, I want to add one or two general considerations in the light of public comment without going near the actual facts of the particular case that we all have uppermost in our minds. The first is the introduction of matter into bankruptcy proceedings which is or may be defamatory of third parties. Naturally, I have been considering that particular aspect of the question from the very first, but obviously I cannot comment wholly candidly upon that kind of point with the examination still continuing. I should like, however, to make one or two general observations. The first is that this is not a bankruptcy problem in itself. Indeed I must say that I cannot recall its ever having arisen in bankruptcy proceedings before. On the other hand, the mention of third parties' names in this way can occur in a wide variety of proceedings—indeed, in almost any kind of proceeding. It could happen, for instance, in a Crown Court trial tomorrow. To give the House an example, in the Cambridge Garden House Hotel not case a complaint was made that evidence was given at the trial that senior members of the university, and one don in particular, had encouraged the rioters. It can also occur in civil cases. I cannot for the moment recall whether the Pemberton Billing Black Book case which occurred in my boyhood was a criminal or a civil case, but it quite clearly could happen to-morrow in a libel case in the civil courts. It can happen at inquests; and it does occur in tribunals of inquiry in relation to which the probem was discussed in the Salmon Report which resulted in one of the recommendations regarding legal representation which has been generally accepted since.
The second general observations I would make is that the difficulty is not surmounted—or at best is only partially surmounted—by the provision of legal representation either at inquiries or in other cases. It is the initial impact of the scandalous matter which counts most, as I think the noble Lord pointed out in one of his observations. Third parties cannot of course be allowed to interrupt proceedings
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to hold, as it were, a trial within a trial. It is sometimes more effective to make statements to the Press, provided one is careful not to commit a contempt of court. Representation at the hearing, although it does sometimes enable counsel with watching briefs to make statements at the end of proceedings does not always remove the injustice, except perhaps in relation to some inquests and inquiries.
Looking at various other aspects of bankruptcy procedure, I do not think one can really hope to cure the difficulty by holding inquiries in camera. Of course, when third parties are brought before the bankruptcy court they are examined in private, and it is right that that should he so. I suppose it would be possible to devise a bankruptcy law in which the debtor was examined in private too, but I wonder whether the public would accept the private examination of a debtor, particularly in a notorious case. I suppose it would be possible to prohibit reporting, as was done for matrimonial cases in 1926, but if one tried to do that I am sure the legislation would be extremely contentious and very unpopular with the Press. I do not know whether it would commend itself to Parliament.
I think it is out of the question to remove the absolute privilege from witnesses or counsel. I share to the full, without expressing any view about this case, the noble Lord's anxiety that the independence of advocates should be respected. At any rate the remedy, by removing absolute privilege, would take place long after the event. No doubt the Faulks Committee will be considering the matter, but I doubt whether there is any advantage in pursuing it. I should also like to emphasise (and this again without any kind of criticism of the way in which this case is being conducted) that it is the business of the presiding judge or the registrar to exercise a strict control over proceedings—this is true in every court case—and in particular he must exercise control over members of the Bar or solicitors, however eminent. Subject to that comment, I do not impute the slightest impropriety in the actual case. I must remind the House that members of the Bar have a great responsibility to exercise their privilege with restraint. Failure to

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do so can, in extreme cases, amount to professional misconduct.
There is only one other comment I should like to make on the noble Lord's very interesting speech; that concerns the Payne Committee, which of course was not primarily concerned with bankruptcy law, though I took the point which the noble Lord made in his reference to his Minority Report. I think the majority of the salient recommendations of the Report have been brought into effect by me since I have been Lord Chancellor. While the noble Lord was speaking, I sent for a note of those which have not yet been brought into effect. I do not think they are major recommendations. I may not have got a complete list of them, but they certainly include transfer from the magistrates' courts to the county court jurisdiction in civil debts, the establishment of enforcement offices, the transfer of responsibility of under-sheriffs to the county court and the abolition of distress for rent. But on the whole I think that the main recommendations of the Report I brought into effect more than a year ago.
My Lords, I am sorry to have made rather a scrappy reply to the noble Lord's interesting Question, but it is a very big subject and I thought the House would like to know the state of play as I saw it.

CRIMINAL LAW REVISION MEMORANDA
7.53 p.m.
LORD DENHAM: My Lords, before we adjourn, I should like to make a short statement about the supply of memoranda relating to the Report of the Criminal Law Revision Committee. This afternoon my noble friend the Leader of the House, in response to a question by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, undertook to see whether arrangements could be made for memoranda published by individual organisations to be made available to Members of the House before the debate on Wednesday on the Report in question. I understand that only three organisations who submitted memoranda have had them published. Of these, there are already copies of the Bar Council's memoranda available in the Printed Paper Office. Efforts will be made tomorrow to obtain copies of the memoranda of the other organisations concerned.
LORD BESWICK: My Lords, I am sure we are very grateful to the noble Lord for giving us that information, and we appreciate the speedy action taken by the Leader of the House.
House adjourned at six minutes before eight o'clock.